20 Episode results for "Ted Kennedy"

Chappaquiddick & Senator Ted Kennedy

Conspiracy Theories

46:30 min | 1 year ago

Chappaquiddick & Senator Ted Kennedy

"What's the most you've ever lost? As the result of a mistake in item value and opportunity a relationship life is a series of decisions many of them binary each one offering potential paths that fate may take us down. Every action has an effect every choice a consequence and sometimes in the rarest of occasions a person is is presented with a life or death choice that will come to define them. That was the case for Senator Ted Kennedy in the summer of Nineteen sixty-nine on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts though the official account of what happened that night is somewhat muddled. The facts are as follows late at night after a party Kennedy set off down Chappaquiddick road in his oldsmobile with him was Mary Jo Kopechne acne a former campaign staffer for the recently assassinated Robert Kennedy. There was an accident. The car hit a barrier and flipped over into the water. Ted Got out and survived but Mary Mary Jo was left trapped in the car. Ted Kennedy did not inform the police about the accident until ten hours later when the car was recovered in Mary. Jo's body was found inside the initial reaction Ocean from the divers was that she hadn't actually drowned she'd suffocated and if Ted Kennedy had called the police immediately she may still be alive today. Welcome to conspiracy theories apar- cast original every Wednesday we dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events in search for the truth. I'm Carter Roy and I'm only Brandenburg and neither of us are conspiracy theorists but we are open minded skeptical and curious. Don't get US wrong long. Sometimes the official version is the truth but sometimes it's not today. We're talking about the chappaquiddick incident when Massachusetts senator and one time aspiring president Ted Kennedy crashed his car into polk upon and fled the scene leaving his passenger. Mary Jo Kopechne in to die in submerged vehicle Kennedy turned himself in and reported the accident to the police. The next day after the car was recovered with Kopechne. He's body inside the fallout from the scandal was the dominant force that prevented Kennedy from securing a nomination for president of the United States though fifty years have passed since the tragedy. There are still certain details details about what really happened that night that raise questions about a potential cover up was ted really driving the car. Why did he wait so long to report the accident? And what role did the various blueblood powerbrokers brokers have New England play in the saga that unfolded. This episode is part of par casts summer of Sixty Nine Event July twenty second through August ninth. All your favorite par- cash shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary three of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit up boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals digging into the fallout of M._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Called M Mohammed Ali's banned from the boxing ring. You can find these specials and more all on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. Were grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at park cast and twitter at podcast network several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening it really does help? Scandal seems like a natural component of politics for as long as America has been a country the men and women who have sought the power and influence that comes with public office breath of open themselves up to public scrutiny the imaging and character emphasis that goes into making successful politician strives for an ideal perfect person but a perfect person doesn't exist and in the history of American politics is by and large defined by figures whose personal flaws boiled over to tarnish their pristine public images but the chappaquiddick incident stands apart even from the most appalling public scandals handles largely because it represented the final downfall of the Kennedy family to truly convey how impactful Chappaquiddick was on the Kennedy family in the country we need to I explore just how how powerful the Kennedys used to be. America is a Democratic Republic. It's built upon the ideas of individuals elected by the people to serve the people there has never been an American American king but for a large part of the first half of the twentieth century the Kennedys were probably the closest thing America had to a royal family. The family's Patriarch was Joseph Kennedy senior born in eighteen eighty eight juice of senior was a business magnate who made his fortune in the nineteen tans and nineteen twenties through the stock market and the investments in Hollywood based movie studios among other ventures aw there has been a long standing unconfirmed myth at Joseph Kennedy senior supplemented his already sizeable fortune by smuggling liquor throughout the United States during the prohibition. Oh habituation period in the nineteen twenties. This rumor has been debunked a number of times its prevalence as a part of justice. Kennedy's legacy is largely due to historians who seek to find reasons why Joseph Senior never ran for president of the United States and Joseph Senior also didn't do much to distance himself from the rumor especially after he secured the licenses to import liquor from England after prohibition was lifted in Nineteen thirty three by the end of the roaring twenties. Joseph Kennedy was rich powerful influential and ready to take the next step in securing his legacy by becoming involved in politics is political career seemed to get off to the right start tart. He first became embroiled in politics in eighteen thirty two as a supporter for Franklin D Roosevelt's presidential campaign after Roosevelt one. He established the U._S. Securities and Exchange Commission and appointed. The Joseph Senior as its first Chairman Joseph Senior only served in the position for a year but his efforts to establish safeguards and regulations within the stock market made him a hero among investors Joseph senior continue continue to thrive within Roosevelt's administration. He had the support of America's growing population of Irish Catholics which at that point in American history were largely discriminated against by the Protestant majority. The Highest Office Joseph Elsa senior ever reached was ambassador to the United Kingdom a role he held from nineteen thirty eight to nineteen forty. Joseph Kennedy senior wasn't shy about his ambition to run for president in the nineteen forty election his position as ambassador would have put him in a prime spot to go for the nomination but his actions as ambassador would lead to his downfall. Joseph Joseph Senior made a number of political blunders while representing America to the United Kingdom. This was nineteen thirty eight during the build up to the outbreak of World War. Two in Europe and Joseph Senior wasn't as hard on Adolf Hitler Hitler as many felt he should be Joseph senior butted heads with Winston Churchill who famously spent the lead up to World War Two arguing that there was no negotiating with Hitler though he was the ambassador to the U._K.. Joseph senior in your spent a good deal of his time in London undercutting British interests by trying to establish a line of communication between the United States and Berlin after the war broke out in nineteen thirty nine Joseph senior took a staunch orange `isolation as position in argued against American aid to the United Kingdom. Even as it's towns were victims of nightly bombings by German planes and worst of all Joseph Kennedy was a not so private anti Semite as Nazi Germany furthered. It's horrific persecution of Europe's Jewish citizens Joseph Senior was quoted more than once saying something to the effect of quote. They brought it on themselves. Joseph Senior was not not popular in Britain and his war between America and Germany's seemed more and more like an inevitability his isolationist views came to define him as a defeatist non Patriot he wasn't outright fired from Roosevelt's Velde's administration the party still needed him to rally the Irish Catholic vote for the Democrats but he and the president had a falling out particularly after Roosevelt ran for and won his unprecedented third term Joe Osa senior resigned as ambassador in nineteen forty. He tried to write his political image by offering to throw his considerable wealth and influence behind the American war efforts but his years of trying to appease Hitler and essentially essentially made him persona non grata among the allied leaders he had no choice but to resign from politics and give up any hope of becoming the first Irish Catholic president of the United States but Joseph Senior wasn't a man to abandoned his ambitions so easily. If he couldn't become president on his own he would make sure that his sons would there's a religious verse about how the sins of the father are visited on the suns but the same can be said the father's goals chose a senior had four sons Joseph Junior born nineteen fifteen john born nineteen seventeen Robert Born nineteen twenty five and finally Edward Known as Ted head born nineteen thirty two Joseph Junior. The oldest Kennedy Son was the one Joseph senior hoped would one day become president to that end Joe Senior greened Joseph Junior from a young age for life in politics and Joseph Junior took the role quite well he attended Harvard law school his father's Alma Mater but left in his final year to enlist with the navy and fight in World War Two his plan as he told hold his friends Mr Run for the House of Representatives in the nineteen forty-six election presumably after the war was over from there he would follow his own political star all the way to the White House doc the plan never came to pass on August Twelfth Nineteen forty four Joseph Kennedy Junior was killed in action when his plane was shot down over England Joe Seniors perfect son his best is chance to put a Kennedy in the White House was gone and so the pressure fell to the second oldest Kennedy Boy John Up to that point John F. Kennedy head enjoyed relative freedom in life at least compared to his older brother John had spent most of his life in and out of hospitals and infirmaries for a number of chronic health issues including gastritis and back pain like Joseph Junior John had attended Harvard before enlisting to serve in in the military for World War Two when he first joined the Navy in nineteen forty one John had some ideas of what he wanted his life to be after the war prior to the war Kennedy had traveled to a number of countries including Germany and Britain and his college thesis about the Political Situation in Britain that would lead to the breakout of the war was actually published in nineteen forty. John ought that this might be his calling as a political writer and reporter on everything changed when his brother died with Joe Junior's death John was now the eldest Kennedy boy and after lifetime of being just to the side of his a father's focus John Kennedy was now Joseph Seniors mean project in Life Joe was going to put one of his sons in the White House and he did it after World War Two Joseph Bankroll John's I campaign for representative of the Eleventh District of Massachusetts John One and served in the house for six years he successfully ran for the Senate in nineteen fifty three and served as a Massachusetts Senator for seven more years and in one thousand nine hundred sixty Joseph senior got his wish when John F. Kennedy was elected as the president of the United States he was the first Catholic to hold that position. This could have seem like something thing of a redemptive Ark for Joe Senior after botching his own political career and losing the sun whom he'd groomed for politics he was able to steer John's meteoric rise but the curse that some have rumored the plates the Kennedy Family would not be satisfied on November twenty second nineteen sixty three as John was touring the country in preparation for his reelection he was assassinated on the streets of Dallas John's legacy and by Extension Joseph Seniors Legacy was permanently tarnished by the tragedy all the John had done in all that he might have done as president was doomed to be overshadowed by the killing feeling but Joseph senior still had more sons with Joe Junior and John Deceased Robert Kennedy was now the oldest Kennedy Boy Robert had served as. The Attorney General under John's administration and many Kennedy Historians believe that Robert May have even been the choice for vice president in John's reelection campaign and for most of the late nineteen sixties. It seemed I'm like Robert had a straight path to the White House. After President Lyndon Johnson announced he would not seek reelection in nineteen sixty eight Robert was the natural choice to lead the Democratic ticket after the tragedy of John John Kennedy's death Robert Kennedy may have been the first Kennedy to become president and actually serve a full term but then in nineteen sixty eight just after he was declared the winner of the California Primary Robert Kennedy was shot. He died of his wounds. The next day in the span of twenty five years Joseph Kennedy senior had lost three sons to violence Ted. The youngest Kennedy Son who was is only thirty four was suddenly the heir apparent to the dynasty. All of Joseph Seniors hopes and ambitions rested on Ted Shoulders. The pressure was now on Ted to become the third Kennedy to run for president accident but his political career would be maligned by scandal long before he ever got the chance up next. We'll discuss the events of July eighteenth nineteen sixty nine and the death of Mary Jo Kopechne e going from one veterinarian to another trying to get a proper diagnosis for your sick cat is stressful. I know because I've done it with my cat eva. The bills can rack up quickly but they don't have to embrace pet insurance offers comprehensive health insurance for dogs and cats so if the unexpected happens you're prepared there are no networks visit any Yvette and get reimbursed for up to ninety percent of the bill insuring your pet can cost less per day than your morning coffee answer a few questions on their website and get a free quote in seconds. You can also sign up for wellness rewards. It's embraces optional preventative care plan use it for everyday expenses like routine veterinary care grooming and training one in three policyholders submit claims in the first year SA- don't wait get your free quote at embrace pet insurance dot com slash conspiracy right now embraced pet insurance dot com slash conspiracy embraced pet insurance is underwritten by American modern insurance group terms and conditions nations apply see website for details. We are so appreciative of you spending the time to listen to our show as a thank you we wanted to do something special for you. podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate great the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark season in American history the summer of nineteen sixty nine over three weeks. We're diving deep into these summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals since you like our show we think you should check out the not guilty podcast that covers the Chicago eight eight anti Vietnam War protesters were arrested and charged with conspiracy and inciting to riot riot during the nineteen sixty eight democratic national convention in the summer and fall of nineteen sixty nine. The defendants went on trial in Chicago. Were they really rioters or just scapegoats to hear all of the fascinating painting summer of one thousand nine hundred sixty nine episodes search for and subscribe to summer of nineteen sixty nine on spotify or anywhere else you listen to podcasts shows and don't forget to tune into the not guilty episode on the Chicago. Oh eight thanks now back to the story. By the end of nineteen sixty eight three of Joseph Kennedy senior sons had died Joe Junior John and now Robert at all been killed before they could fulfil the extent of the ambition. Their father had Joseph Senior. Perhaps due to his own lodged intend to become president was adamant about putting the Kennedy Boys in the white eight house he had succeeded with his second son. John John's political legacy was permanently interrupted when he was tragically assassinated in nineteen sixty three with Robert debt as well and just as he seemed to be on the cusp of kicking off a successful presidential campaign the weight of the Kennedy name nail fell to the youngest Kennedy son Ted Edward Teddy Kennedy or nineteen thirty two it wasn't exactly the black sheep of the Kennedy family but as the youngest of nine Children Teddy was afforded leeway to fail in a manner that his brothers were never allowed while Joe Senior had been laser focused on ensuring the joe junior and to a lesser extent John and Robert worked to succeed in every aspect of their lives so as to prepare them for life in the public spotlight he seemed to not have the same level of commitment to ensuring that Teddy excelled old teddy had middling grades throughout his childhood though his large size made him a natural football player despite the lack of any real academic achievement he attended Harvard University for undergraduate just as his father and brothers had done sometimes name is more important than a transcript teddy was in his freshman year in college while his brother John was serving his first term in the House of Representatives that combined with the families already notable profile across Ross American news and politics meant that there was a public spotlight on anyone with the Kennedy name as the youngest child teddy likely wasn't used to having much attention directed his way. This is why he probably thought he could get away with cheating on an exam in his freshman year. In nineteen fifty one teddy arranged for another student to take one of his exams he was caught and both students were expelled. That's not the kind of backstory. Are you want to see in someone who wants to be President Teddy expelled and with few options of other schools that would actually take him enrolled in the military he served for two years in the military. Police and Joseph senior used his own military connections to ensure the teddy wasn't deployed in the Korean War which was ongoing at that time teddy was discharged in nineteen fifty three at that time Harvard University allowed expelled students to apply hi for readmission. After a few years teddy was readmitted again no doubt due to the workings of his father and his own family name Teddy graduated from Harvard in Nineteen Fifty six when he was twenty four war but he was rejected by Harvard law school due to his poor grades and the prior expulsion the academic dishonesty on his record should have prevented him from getting into most law schools but he managed to follow when Roberts footsteps and attend the University of Virginia School of law as he had for his entire life teddy performed middling Lii in his academics though in law school he started to develop a reputation for his strong oratory skills. While he was in law school teddy also had his first real run in with the law when he was charged with reckless driving nothing came of the charge and it certainly didn't seem to hurt his political aspirations but then again we must always consider teddy's powerful family and their ability to put him in positions to succeed Teddy was named manager of John Kennedy's election campaign for the Senate in Nineteen fifty eight after graduating law school in nineteen eighteen fifty nine. He went on to help manage John's campaign for president. After John won the nineteen sixty election. He wanted Teddy to take his vacant Senate seat. Even though that wouldn't be possible for two more years since instead he was only twenty eight in nineteen sixty teddy claim to have grappled for a time with whether or not he wanted to bank on his family name to begin his political career as a senator when most politicians served several terms and smaller offices offices before reaching the Senate Keti then twenty-eight wasn't even old enough to take the job since the minimum age for U._S.. Senators is thirty but he ultimately decided he wanted the job at Joel seniors urging John Kennedy appointed an interim officer to the Senate seat until nineteen sixty two when teddy turned thirty and was able to take the position once he was thirty teddy ran for the seat in a special election and despite his inexperience criminal record and the public revelation of his expulsion from Harvard he won. No one could have known back in nineteen sixty two but senator for Massachusetts was actually the last job Teddy Kennedy would ever have it served in the role for nearly eight consecutive terms until his death in two thousand nine in nineteen sixty four less than a year after John Kennedy's assassination mission teddy had his own brush with death when he barely survived a plane crash he suffered severe injuries and even after months in the hospital chronic back pain would play again for the rest of his life. Teddy evolved his political reviews throughout the rest of the nineteen sixties living through his brother John's assassination and later Robert's murder in nineteen sixty eight Robert's assassinations and the Democratic Party into chaos and the Democrats. We're already at a disadvantage in that incumbent president Lyndon Baines Johnson was electing not to run Robert was the most popular option and with his death so close to the actual election. There was no one else for the Democrats to put forward who had stand a chance against the Republican nominee Richard Nixon there was actually a movement among the Democrats to have Ted Kennedy Take Roberts place as a nominee Ted decline though both out of respect for his brother's memory and his own acknowledgment that he wasn't experienced enough to be president still the thought wasn't new to his mind. After Richard Nixon won the presidency in nineteen sixty eight Ted won the election to become the majority whip in the Senate. It was a given among the establishment Democrats that Ted Kennedy would make a bid to run against Nixon in the nineteen seventy two election but then the summer summer of Nineteen sixty-nine happened on July eighteenth nineteen sixty nine while most of the country was glued to their radios waiting for updates on the recently launched Apollo Eleven Moon Mission Ted Kennedy set up a party. The purpose of the gathering was to host a reunion of six women Rosemary Keough Nance and Mary Ellen Lions Susan Tanenbaum Esther Newberg and twenty eight year old Mary Jo Kopechne e these women had all worked on Robert Kennedy's presidential campaign and had come to be known as the boiler room girls due to the windowless room. They all worked out of on the campaign. This this was a group of young smart women whose time as an effective political team had been tragically cut short by Robert's murder they had reunited a number of times prior to the July eighteenth gathering the party was hosted on Chappaquiddick island a fairy accessible retreat east of Martha's Vineyard in addition to the boiler room girls six men attended including Ted Kennedy his cousin Joseph Gorgan and Paul Markham the the United States District Attorney in Massachusetts as the Party started to wind down Ted prepared to leave his wife. Joan was pregnant at the time and bedridden due to her two previous miscarriages and Ted was ready to return to her. He started making the rounds to say his goodbyes at eleven fifteen on his way out. He passed Mary. Jo Mary. Jo was staying at a hotel near Ted's and she asked if he could give her a ride back. Ted Kennedy did normally drive himself as a wealthy senator yet a chauffeur for most of his transport needs Ted's chauffeured. John Crimmins was actually at the party that night when Ted saw that John was still eating and and enjoying himself he ask for the keys to his car until John he drive himself home. The rest of the guests were too preoccupied with a party to notice Mary Jo leave with Kennedy when they realized she was gone. They all soom she'd had left on her own. Ted and Mary Jo climbed into Ted's Black Oldsmobile in started off down the narrow unlit paved road that would take them to the mainland for Mary Joe. It was the last last time she'd set foot dry land next. We'll discuss the death of Mary Jo Kopechne -I in the fallout of Ted Kennedy's actions after the fateful crash now back back to the story on the evening of July Eighteenth Nineteen sixty-nine Ted Kennedy left a party on Chappaquiddick island in his black oldsmobile. He had a passenger Mary Jo Kopechne -I whom he was giving a ride home. Ted didn't normally drive himself yet a chauffeur John Crimmins but he chose to take the keys and drive his black oldsmobile himself that night according to Ted's later testimony. He left the party with Mary Jo at around eleven fifteen in the evening Chappaquiddick was a popular destination in part because it was secluded and as such a number of its roads were unpaved and unlit shortly after driving away from the party Ted made a wrong turn in started down dyke road which at that time was an unlit unpaved road that led to a dead end past dike bridge in nineteen sixty nine dike bridge did not have a guardrail Ted was driving too fast to stop the car once he caught sight of the narrow cross whe he lost control of the Oldsmobile just before hit the crossing the car shot over the edge and hit the water the car saint quickly as it filled with water the momentum from the fall off the bridge caused it to turn over. Over before it finally landed at the floor of Polka Pond Ted had hit his head in the crash it was panicked and struggling as the car filled with dark cold water. Mary Jo was screaming. She was stuck she couldn't get out Ted managed to free himself through the car window and swim up to the surface as he gasped for air. He realized that Mary Jo had not followed him. She was still stuck in the car. Ted Swim Back Down to the car to try and free Mary Jo but it was dark and the only source of light was the distant moon the murky shine of the submerged car's headlights he he swam down to the car but couldn't get back into reach her. He went up for air again. Swam down again. He repeated this a number of times until the horrible truth finally dawned on him. He couldn't free Mary Jo in so many minutes had passed that I now she had Shirley already drowned soaked and disoriented Ted swam back to shore and and this is as the story goes where his actions shift from the understandable to the unforgivable Ted sat on the riverbank for a few minutes likely recovering from the shock the cold and the exertion of trying to reach Mary Jo in the car then he went home looking through the records of what was going on at Chappaquiddick that night Ted almost certainly walked past the dyke house aptly named for its location on Dyke Road on the night of July eighteenth. The dyke houses front porch light was on someone was home but Ted Kennedy walked right past it. It didn't go to the house to try and use the telephone call for help. It was just over a mile back to the cottage where the party was still in full swing. Ted also passed a fire station where he could have rushed in to ask for help. The cottage was actually across across the street from the Fire Department. Meaning Ted would have walked right past the building on his way back to the party again. He didn't alert emergency personnel about what had happened. Once there he summoned his cousin Joe Gorgan and his his friend Paul Markham Ted told these two men what happened together the three of them drove back to the crash site Markham in Gorgan both stripped out of their clothes before diving in to try and recover Mary Gel one might wonder why they would take the time to remove their clothes given that a woman was trapped in a submerged vehicle and had been for at least half an hour of course neither of the men could speak as to why they did it but consider the fact act that they'd have a hard time explaining away wet clothes. If anyone saw them later and you can start to connect the dots like Kennedy the men couldn't reach her the water was too dark in the car was at such an angle angled. They couldn't get inside it. The men's spoke in hushed whispers as they walked to the ferry dock on Chappaquiddick Island Gorgan and Markham made it clear in no uncertain terms. The ten should call the police immediately. Lee Ted agreed said he would and then jumped in the ocean to make the swim back to the mainland Ted reached his hotel after two in the morning close to two thirty a m after he had showered and changed into dry clothes in Ted approach the innkeeper and stated that he'd been awakened by some noise in doing so ted seemed to have created something of an alibi for himself. Garden and Markham met up with Ted the next morning at eight A._M.. They were both furious to find out he had not kept his promise to tell the police about the accident. We can't know what was going on in Ted's head at that moment but his actions would seem to be those of a man who is hoping being that that car simply wouldn't be found at that same time as the tide was moving out a fisherman and his son spotted Kennedy's cars submerged in the water. The police were called in eight eight forty five the captain of the Edgar town fire rescue. John Farrar was summoned with his diving gear to swim down into the car. He found capacities body in the passenger seat. They recovered her within ten minutes and I did the license plate to find that it was registered to Ted Kennedy close to ten A._M.. Ted received word that police had found the car and the body over ten hours after the accident Ted Ted Kennedy appeared at the Edgar Town police station and reported the incident in his official statement Kennedy confessed a crashing the car and stated that he was both exhausted from his attempts at trying to save Mary Jo and in a state of general shock from the accident itself. This was why he failed to report the accident immediately. Ted claimed that he came to his senses after getting a few hours of sleep and that he contacted attacked police immediately afterwards Kennedy appeared in court a week later on July twenty fifth on charges of leaving the scene of an accident in the week between the incident and the court appearance the details of what had really what happened only became muddier and Muddier with questions how did Ted accidentally turn onto dyke road. The turnoff required a driver to make a deliberate right turn from a curving paved road Ted and Mary Joe had likely driven that route a number of times just on that day. Why did Mary Jo Leave her person keys behind the party? If Ted was supposedly taking her to her hotel Ted later claimed that he suffered a concussion as a result of the crash and that contributed to his inability to think straight or make rational decisions but then how is he able to swim back to the mainland to reach his hotel a concussion can cause disorientation and fatigue neither of which you WANNA be dealing with if you're planning on making a long night swim plus Ted still suffered from the chronic back pain brought on by the plane crash he'd been in five years before. Could you really have made that swim if he wasn't of sound mind and finally who could account for the testimony of Deputy Sheriff Christopher Look Look had been working on the night of July eighteenth and in the fall out of the accident he testified it just seen a car on Chappaquiddick road that matched the description of Kennedy's Oldsmobile. The characters look recalled from the license plate also matched with Kennedy's the smoking gun here is the time line look reported had seeing this car at around twelve forty am yet Kennedy testified that he left the party with Mary. Jo at eleven fifteen and people at the party corroborated this. If everyone involved was telling the truth that would mean that Ted and Mary Jo were in the car for over an hour before crashing just a mile away from the party so what happened during that hour the incident in Ted Kennedy's. Involvement was a national news story though it received less attention than likely should have remember at that time the entire country was fixated on the impending moon landing which would occur on July twentieth nineteen sixty thirty nine at the July twenty fifth hearing Kennedy pleaded guilty and was sentenced to two months suspended jail sentence in other words. He got a slap on the wrist that same night Ted went on TV the and delivered a prepared statement in it. He clarified that he had not behaved immorally with Mary Gel meaning. He was not engaging in an affair with her. He wasn't under the influence he had no excuse for his failure to report the accident other than his shock and confusion he concluded his statement by asking his constituents in Massachusetts to help him process what had happened but clarified that the decision to resign from the Senate would be his to make and he didn't make it as we said Ted Kennedy occupied his Senate seat until the end of his life in two thousand nine but there was significant fallout how do to the highly publicized scandal to be blunt. The chappaquiddick incident of nineteen sixty nine is likely the sole reason that Ted Kennedy never became president despite the P._R.. Black Mark Against Him Ted was re elected by an overwhelming majority to a Senate seat in nineteen seventy. It was widely assumed he was going to confirm the rumors and run for president in nineteen seventy two but he didn't Ted Kennedy was at least on the national stage inextricably linked to the chappaquiddick scandal in nineteen seventy four he once again made the decision not to run in the nineteen seventy six election in part because he knew the scandal would dampen his chances Ted finally made his move in nineteen seventy nine when he challenged incumbent president Jimmy Carter for the Democratic nomination he lost the primary badly and Carter's constant reference to the Chappaquiddick chappaquiddick incident in the media and in the publicized debates largely contributed to that loss in two thousand eighteen a film about the incident appropriately title Chappaquiddick was released. There's a scene in the film that takes place just after Ted Kennedy returned to the party from the leg. The line he says is by the admission of the film's writers a fiction a speculation on their part but they justified it by claiming they we looked into what was known about the man himself and what was likely going through his head at that time and they wrote the line based on that foundation of research in the film when Ted Kennedy First Summons Joe Garden in Paul Markham he he tells them bluntly. I'm never going to be president. He may not have said it in real life but the sentiment is true all the same Ted Kennedy passed away in two thousand nine with his death. The only two people people who really knew what happened on the night of July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine we're now gone and could no longer answer any lingering questions but they're still are lingering questions. Our first conspiracy deals with the so-called missing our between when Kennedy left the Party with Mary Jo and when he was suspected to have been seen by sheriff look over an hour later. There's a number of speculative possibilities including getting the theory that Ted was drunk in Mary. Jo forced him to pull over and sober up or that Ted wasn't even driving the car after spotting sheriff look head left Mary Jo to drive herself home. Mary Jo unacquainted with the road got lost and crashed into the pont our second conspiracy deals with the status of Mary Jo herself who she even alive when the car crashed did she drown as is commonly suspected acted or did she survive for hours in an underwater air bubble doomed only because Ted waited so long to report the accident. Our third conspiracy asked the question was there a cover up orange attempted one ted Kennedy called a number of his father's powerful friends in the hours before he spoke to the police. What was said in those calls? What was he hoping to accomplish? Was He trying to hide something even more despicable than leaving a woman behind to die. There's a conventional wisdom that scandals are just part of the political game when you're embroiled in one honey. You just need to wait for the press to move on to the next big story. A chappaquidick has endured for fifty years since the incident the unanswered questions and more seriously the fact that a man who clearly felt the oval the office was his birthright could be capable of such a callous act of negligence. Joe Kennedy senior lived just long enough to witness the shameful period that ended his dreams of having a son finish a term as president he died shortly after the incident in November of nineteen sixty nine. When we think of John Kennedy we think of assassination when we think of Robert Kennedy we think of assassination when we think of Ted Kennedy we think of Chappaquiddick thanks again for tuning into our conspiracy theories summer of sixty nine special next week? We'll be back with partout if you enjoyed this episode checkout podcast continued retrospective into these summer of sixty nine from July twenty second through August ninth. The summer of sixty nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer be sure to check it out on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast West and twitter at podcast network until then remember the truth isn't always the best story and the official story isn't always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created by Max Cutler is a production production of cutler media and as part of the park cast network it is produced by maximum cutler sound design by Russell Nash With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Libeskind additional production assistance by nagy admire and Freddie Beckley early conspiracy theories as written by Colin mcglaughlin and Stars Molly Brandenburg Encarta Roy. Don't forget to check out not guilty episode on the Chicago eight plus s you can check out all the other episodes of podcasts summer of sixty nine event extraterrestrial recounts. The Apollo Missions Female Criminals Examines the women of the Manson family. My other show historical figures looks at Muhammad Ali.

Ted Ted Kennedy Senator Ted Kennedy Paul Markham Ted Mary Mary Jo Ted Joseph Kennedy president Ted Edward Teddy Kennedy Joseph Joseph Senior John F. Kennedy Party Mary Jo Kopechne Kennedy Boy Robert John John Kennedy Kennedy Family Massachusetts Kennedy United States Chappaquiddick Island Senate
Chappaquiddick & Senator Ted Kennedy Pt. 2

Conspiracy Theories

1:03:56 hr | 1 year ago

Chappaquiddick & Senator Ted Kennedy Pt. 2

"Time magazine Love Ted Kennedy in his final years in the mid to late `oughts the weekly Lee magazine published a number of profiles on the long-serving Senator has it began to succumb to health issues seemingly signaling that his time on this earth was coming coming to an end they wrote of his suffering how he had persevered through the tragic assassinations of his brothers John and Robert Kennedy and his own physical trauma from a nineteen sixty four plane crash that left him in chronic pain the articles covered his political legacy naming him as the lion of the Senate crediting him for Supporting Barack Obama in the Democratic primaries and leaving him toward his nomination for president his political record comes up two by two thousand eight Ted Kennedy was the third longest serving senator in the history of the union with eight consecutive terms serving the people of Massachusetts and America at large what the illustrious magazine failed to mention in these series of profiles was the great great black mark of Ted Kennedy's career in July of nineteen sixty nine in the middle of the night. Ted Kennedy drove his car. You're off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts in crashed into a pond. The car quickly sank Kennedy managed to to escape but his passenger twenty eight year old Mary Jo Kopechne he was pinned. She drowned in the dark Ted Kennedy. It did not report the incident for ten hours what happened during that time has led to numerous theories about timelines intentions NHS drunk driving and cover-ups orchestrated by powerful individuals all of its swirls around the question. What really really happened that night? What exactly did Ted Kennedy get away with <music>? Welcome to conspiracy theories apar- cast original every Wednesday we dig into the complicated stories behind the world's as most controversial events and search for the truth. I'm Carter Roy and I'm Ali Brandenburg and neither of us are conspiracy theorists but we are open minded minded skeptical and curious. Don't get US wrong. Sometimes the official version is the truth but sometimes it's not this is our second second and final episode on the Chappaquiddick incident of Nineteen sixty-nine when rising star Senator Ted Kennedy crashed his car into a pond on on Chappaquiddick island the incident resulted in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne any and to this day there are questions regarding how she died why she was in the a car and what led Ted Kennedy to wait ten hours before notifying the authorities that he had left a woman trapped in the submerged vehicle. This episode is as part of our casts summer of sixty nine event till I twenty second through August ninth. All your favorite par- cash shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing were tightening deep into the summer America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals. We'll be digging into the fallout of M._l._k.'s as assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Cold and Mohammed Ali's ban from the boxing ring. You can find these specials and more all on our new DUPARC has presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. Were grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Love let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several view of asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening it really does help. This is our second and final episode on the Chappaquiddick incident of nineteen sixty nine when rising star Senator Senator Ted Kennedy crashed his car into a pond on Chappaquiddick island the incident resulted in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne e and to this day there are questions regarding how she died why she was in the car and what led Ted Kennedy to wait ten hours before notifying lying the authorities that he had left a woman trapped in a submerged vehicle. The chappaquiddick incident is among the most famous political scandals in American history three and is seen as the key reason that Ted Kennedy never had the chance to follow in his brother's footsteps for real shot at a presidential run but the legacy of the entire affair is inherently problematic in no small part because we tend to refer to it as a political scandal and not on a case of manslaughter over the past ten years ever since Ted Kennedy passed away at has come to be accepted that the real story story of Chappaquiddick may never be known after all the two people who were in the car that night are both dead and gone and this episode episode. We're going to examine the unanswered questions that still swirl today over the chappaquiddick incident our first conspiracy theory is the Ted Kennedy's Kennedy's account of when he left the Party and when he crashed is false this is best evidenced by the so called missing our between when and Ted Kennedy left the Party and when he was supposedly spotted by a sheriff's deputy over an hour later our second conspiracy theory is that Ted Kennedy he was intoxicated or otherwise impaired that night and that this was the reason for both the crash and his actions immediately following it finally Ted Kennedy waited ten hours before he reported the crash. It's been suggested though obviously never proven that Mary Jo lived for much longer than initially suspected and that she may have been rescued. If only Ted had gone for help in our last episode we discussed the decades long series of events that ultimately led to Ted Kennedy and Mary Jo Kopechne e attending that party on Chappaquiddick island on the evening of July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine ted was the youngest son of Joseph Kennedy Senior. The New England millionaire and Patriarch of of the Kennedy Family Joe Senior groomed his sons to succeed in politics but between nineteen forty four and nineteen sixty eight he he saw his hopes dashed as each of his three eldest sons. I tragically young Joe Kennedy Junior died in nineteen forty four while while on a combat mission in World War Two president John F. Kennedy was assassinated in nineteen sixty three and Robert Bobby Kennedy was gunned down in nineteen eighteen sixty eight all of a sudden there was only Ted Kennedy who had been expelled from Harvard for cheating and had a criminal record for reckless is driving Ted worked to make himself into the kind of man who could truly honor the Kennedy name by nineteen sixty nine it was widely assumed from that he would make his first bid for the presidency against incumbent Richard Nixon in nineteen seventy two but then chappaquiddick happened July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine was supposed to be a day of Reunion in celebration. Ted organized denies a reunion of the six boiler room girls former staffers of Robert Kennedy's presidential campaign. Mary Jo was among these women. The day I saw the attendees partake in a boat race and a barbecue before retiring to a rented cottage on Chappaquiddick island to continue the party our first conspiracy Chrissy theory concerns a time discrepancy in the official account of what happened on the night of the eighteenth. Could it be possible that there really was a missing kissing our intense account the theory of the missing our comes primarily from Deputy Sheriff Christopher look who was on the roads on Chappaquiddick after midnight on the night of the incident recall according to Ted Kennedy's testimony. He left the party at around eleven fifteen pm. He encountered Mary Joe on his way out. She told him she was not feeling well and asked him to give her a ride back to her hotel. Chappaquiddick is not a large patch of land. It would have been only about two miles from the cottage to the ferry that would have taken Ted's car to the mainland and it was only one mile from the cottage to the bridge where Ted ultimately crashed his car given the Ted believed he was driving at a speed of around twenty miles per hour. It should should've been mere minutes between when he drove off from the Party and when he crashed the deputy sheriff looks account paints a different picture that night look had been working at a dance in the Yacht Club at Martha's vineyard he was there until after midnight and then made his way across the narrow channel to return to his home on Chappaquiddick island according to look he was approaching chappaquiddick roads one main intersection intersection the same intersection where Ted Kennedy would later claim to have made a wrong turn when he spotted a dark four door sedan pulled over at the side side of the road looks headlights made it clear that a man was driving in the woman was sitting in the passenger seat look assuming that the driver and passenger may debut lost got out of his vehicle and approached it but as he got close the car lurched into gear and barreled on down Dyke road toward toward dike bridge this was at twelve forty in the morning nearly an hour and a half after Kennedy had left the Party with Mary. Mary Jo Look didn't commit the cars full license plate to memory but he did remember that it contained in l. and two sevens after the bazaar encounter look continued down Chappaquiddick road and encountered some of the party guests outside the cabin he asked if any of them knew about about a black sedan. None of them could confirm whether it belonged to Kennedy even though most of the people at that party likely knew the Kennedy had arrived in a block four door oldsmobile but there are two facts that connect a car that look had seen with Ted Kennedy's car won won Ted Kennedy's license plate number was L. Seven eight Dash Two oh seven it contained in l. and two sevens just like look described ascribed more damning is the fact that look was one of the first responders on the scene when the car was discovered and pulled from the water on the morning of July nineteenth eighteenth at the scene he noted that he had seen that same car the night before if look really saw Kennedy's car that would mean a full ninety minutes passed between when Kennedy left the Party was Mary Jo and when he crashed his car off dike bridge this naturally leads to the question of what happened during that missing time and why would kennedy lie about it. was there more to the story of what happened that night before with a crash. Could it be possible that Ted's intentions for Mary. Jo were less than honorable or maybe even that she was dead before the car. I sank into the river. It's no worthy that Kennedy claimed to have been back in his hotel by two twenty five in the morning given the distance between the crash site the cottage and Kennedy's own statement about how he recruited Paul Markham in Joe Gorgan to try and Rescue Mary Jo from the car it would have been possible for him to be back in the hotel that time if he crashed the car at eleven fifteen but the time line seems much less likely if he actually crashed the car closer to one in the morning this particular theory deal simply with whether Ted Kennedy crashed when he says he did unfortunately there's not much to go off of besides two conflicting accounts from fifty years ago although don't forget the Ted did speak to the innkeeper at his hotel and that was believed to have happened between two and three in the morning honestly what seems most likely is that both Ted Kennedy and look are telling what they believed to be the truth if look got his time wrong then it's entirely possible that he did see Ted and Mary Jo in the car but <music> at an earlier time than twelve forty A._M.. But this still doesn't account for why Ted didn't mention pulling over on the side of the road I give it a nine out of tin that the official stories timeline is falls at least to some degree what I'm not sure about is whether that's intentional or just a byproduct kicked of Ted failing to recall exact details about a night where he crashed his car nearly drowned and probably when to some degree of shock no regardless regardless of intent looks story does raise some questions why was Kennedy pulled over in the first place and if he was telling the truth. Why did his version version of the story not explain why he was pulled over that night? Could it be that he didn't remember pulling over in the first place or perhaps Ted needed it to withhold the real reason that he was pulled over. Could it be that he realized he needed to sober out next. We'll look look at the various conspiracies about Ted and Mary Jo's states of mind in those fateful final minutes before the crash uh they seem like a friend or even family you trust them with your life but behind the promises of fame success and enriches beyond your wildest dreams. It's just another scammer trying to cheat you out of your life savings every week the new podcast original con artists it's dives into the psychology of hustlers swindlers and fraudsters to share with you. The greatest cons of all time con artists come from different walks of life and we cover all of them fairness founder and C._E._o.. Elizabeth Holmes grew her company to a value of nine billion dollars. Despite despite the fact that its flagship technology did not work Jordan Belfort also known as the wolf of Wall Street partied hard and made millions while engaging gauging in stock market manipulation and Bernie Madoff a top Wall Street market maker who operated one of the biggest Ponzi schemes of all time conning thing thousands of clients out of almost sixty five billion dollars spot the con- before it finds you listen to con artists search for and subscribe to Con Artists On Sure to stick around after this show to hear a clip of the first episode of Con Artists. Now back to the story time time is among the most important factors in the mysteries of what happened on Chappaquiddick island on the evening of July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine because us of the fact that Ted Kennedy waited ten hours before alerting authorities. There was plenty of time for the important details of the case to be lost or or on a more sinister note. There was plenty of time for Kennedy to craft his story. Our second conspiracy theory is that Ted Kennedy he was either intoxicated or otherwise impaired when he crashed the car even if he wasn't this theory puts forth that something was off with his State of mind that night and whatever it was directly led to the crash and Mary Jo's death when the story of the accident I broke. There were two main in questions that arose. What was Mary Jo Kopechne e doing in Ted Kennedy's car and was Ted Kennedy Drunk Ted Kennedy. He didn't drive at least didn't often drive given his substantial personal fortune and high status as United States. Senator Ted had a chauffeured referred to cover. Most of his transportation needs in fact. Ted's personal chauffeur. John Crimmins was at the cottage party on Chappaquiddick island on the night of the incident. prims was a guest. That's considered to be true but he was also there in some capacity as Ted Kennedy's driver river so when Ted Kennedy prepared to leave. Why didn't crimmins leave with him when asked later? Ted stated that he didn't want to pull crimmins wins away from the party to take him home. CRIMMINS was still enjoying his meal and the company. It's odd the crimmins would be preoccupied with a meal since it was after eleven at night when Kennedy made to leave that maybe that really was the case given the full day of partying and relaxing. There's one thing to note here though we're unsure what to read into it. According to the official account Ted Kennedy retrieved his car keys from crimmins after Mary. Jo asked him for a ride home. This could mean that Ted was planning on having crimmins drive him home until Mary. Jo asked for a ride. If he wasn't planning on driving he might have been drinking. Mary Jo by all accounts was a smart capable woman and it would have been very out of character for her to be drinking drinking heavily at an event like this but she hadn't driven herself to the party and thus wouldn't have needed to worry about keeping an eye on her drinking. There are some uncorroborated reports that she had drunk at least some amount of alcohol at the party. She may not have been impaired but she also may not have noticed if Ted was not in a condition to drive now crimmins was both Kennedy's driver and occasional aid he knew the man well and it's not a stretch to to assume that he would have noticed if Ted was too drunk to drive himself. The fact that he handed over the keys to the car would seem to indicate that as far as the partygoers eighty goers were concerned. Ted was only fine the big discrepancy that may lead one to ask if Ted was drunk or not has to do with the geography a Chappaquiddick island itself. Chappaquidick has one main road one that Ted Mary Jo had both ridden along multiple times throughout that a day Chappaquiddick road tracks along about two miles from the ferry point before making a right turn into the more residential area that turn occurs at the intersection with Dyke road again. This was really the only major road on the island and even at night Kennedy would have known known that to get to the ferry from the cottage he would have had to just follow Chappaquiddick road. Keep left at the fork and then take it all the way to the ferry. So how did he instead manage to turn left on Dyke Road and moreover. Why did he stay on Dyke Road after the turn Dyke road was unpaved and it should have been evident immediately to Ted that he'd made a wrong turn of course if he'd been drunk that might explain how he'd be able to get so turned around but it's also possible that Ted had not done much driving over the island crimmins was with him and it's possible that Ted had been preoccupied with some matter or another as criminals handled the driving and thus ted wasn't as familiar with the roads as he should have been but again if if that was the case why would crimmins let Ted drive on the Unfamiliar Island Roads At night. Ted was asked this very question when he was interrogated gated by police after he confessed fleeing the scene of the accident according to him he'd actually never been on Chappaquiddick island prior to to that day and so he didn't know the roads at all he visited Martha's vineyard plenty of times in his life but never chappaquiddick the question in how Ted Kennedy came to make that wrong turn and why he continued to drive at a speed of twenty miles per hour down an unpaved road becomes more more complicated when you consider the testimony of deputy sheriff look remember look claims that he spotted the black sedan that was likely Kennedy's hold over near the intersection of Chappaquiddick road and Dyke road. He exited his vehicle and approached with the sedan shot away before he could could get a good look at the driver. It's been suggested though obviously not proven the Ted. Kennedy saw look approaching the car either because he knew he was drunk or because he knew the optics of being caught alone in a car with a woman who wasn't his wife would be potentially damaging to his career. Kennedy realized he couldn't let look identify him so he put the car in gear and pulled away not realizing that he had taken a wrong turn down dyke road toward dike bridge was so focused on not being seen that he didn't track how fast he was driving or the directs new is heading until it was too late and he drove off the bridge of course this theory hit something of a snag when we consider what happened after the crash if if Ted Kennedy was so drunk that he managed to crash his car into the pond on earth was cogent enough actually get himself out of the car. Maybe he got lucky. The question of how Ted Kennedy managed to free himself from the submerged vehicle while Mary Jo remains stuck will likely never be he answered additionally. We'll never know the real reason why Kennedy didn't stop at any houses on his track back to the party to get help. The walk from the crash site back to the cottage is roughly one. Mile Ted Kennedy passed at least one house that had its porch light on and he also passed the firehouse house on his way back. It's been stated though not totally confirmed that he passed up to four houses that had their porch lights on during his walk back to the cottage. One of the most damning actions Kennedy took in this story is not running up to any of these homes and asking to use the telephone to call for help. Kennedy would later say he was exhausted and in shock from the near death experience of the crash is mine wasn't in the right place and thus he didn't grasp ask that he should have rushed to the nearest house and immediately sought help but if Kennedy was drunk it would also explain why he didn't talk to anyone on his way back act cottage until he rendezvous with Guardian and Markham Kennedy didn't inform the police of the accident until ten hours after it occurred because of the time lapse there was no way for anyone to administer a sobriety test all they had to go off of was Ted Kennedy's word and so barring a confession from Kennedy admitting that he'd been impaired there was no way nor will there ever be a way to determine if he he was drunk when he got behind the wheel of his oldsmobile in his statement to the public on July twenty fifth nineteen sixty nine. Ted Reemphasized besides that he was not intoxicated. He made sure to note that his doctors had retroactively diagnosed him with a concussion and was shock but he didn't didn't want us these conditions to justify his actions how noble of him and that was it. Ted Kennedy stuck to that official story for the rest in his life and no one who is at the party ever came forward to make an on the record statement that they witness. Ted Drinking that night and so all we can really really do is guest the validity of this theory. I'll give this one six out of ten. It's impossible to prove in. It's completely plausible. The tape Kennedy really was just that unfamiliar with the roads on Chappaquiddick island but consider the numerous events that raise questions. Ted Likely thought he wouldn't have to drive in self that night since his driver was present at the party he was more than likely spotted by Deputy Sheriff Look but drove off before he could be identified identified. You somehow failed to grasp that he was on the wrong road despite the lack of pavement and he wasn't able to stop the car fast enough even after Dike Bridge Ridge became visible in his headlights. He didn't alert anyone that might be able to help rescue Mary. Jo and he only confessed to fleeing the scene. After after it would be impossible to determine his level of sobriety. That's a lot of damning facts all of which can be explained by intoxication. Ted Kennedy claimed he wasn't in his right mind after the crash he may have actually been telling the truth but lied about the reason one more major question about chappaquiddick that really shows the level to which Ted Kennedy's actions were unforgivable at question is how along it Mary Jo Kopechne e live after the crash. We'll discuss that and the likelihood of a cover up after this now the conclusion to the story. We've discussed the inconsistencies in the official account of what happened in the late hours of the evening on Chappaquiddick Island and we've discussed the likelihood that Ted was drinking on the night of the accident however ever all of these unanswered questions still don't address one of the key questions in this incident. How much was Ted Kennedy to blame for what happened so let's take a second and assume that the official story is as Ted told it he got turned around on the road crashed. The car thought he was is doing everything he could save Mary Jo but was so shocked by the crash that he wasn't thinking straight. His inaction almost becomes palatable eligible. If you accept that all these things are true assuming that he was correct in thinking Mary Jo Really did perish just minutes after the car hit the water our last theory examines the actual death of Mary Jo Kopechne -I the confirmed cause of death and the question Stian of how long she may have survived in the car after Ted abandoned her recall. The generally known facts of the crash Ted Kennedy was driving. Mary Joe was in the passenger seat. He was tearing down the unpaved. Unlit Dyke Road at around twenty miles an hour when he spotted the end of the road marked by dike hike bridge in the pond beyond Ted couldn't hit the brakes fast enough and the car crashed over the edge of the drop off and hit the water it turned over whereas it submerged landing on its roof at the foot of the pond ten feet below the surface. Ted was able to get free from the car and swim to the surface he claimed to have swum back down to the car a number of times to try and free Mary Jo but he was disoriented from the shock of the crash and the water was pitch black so he couldn't see her well enough to help by the time. Tan decided to leave the scene in return to the cottage. Several minutes had passed. He assume that too much time had passed since the car sunk below the surface and that there was no way that Mary Jo could still be alive. She must have drowned wound. This conclusion also makes up for part of Ted's justification for not telling more people about the crash until the next morning with the darkness of the night and the cold water he worried that if he started to tell the other party guests it might prompt a wider rescue attempt and even more people could've gotten hurt the claim that he was protecting the other women at the party from sharing Mary. Jo's fate doesn't really hold up at all. It doesn't especially especially given the fact that Ted passed a firehouse on his way back to the cottage and could have roused trained rescue professionals easily but the extent end of Ted's negligence became more complicated after the car with Mary Jo Kopechne as bodies still inside was retrieved the next morning on the morning of July nineteenth while head was mulling over his options at his hotel a fisherman and his son spotted the car on the bottom of the the pond fire and rescue or summoned to examine and recover the car at approximately eight forty five in the morning John Farrar captain. The fire rescue unit arrived with scuba gear. He swam down to the car and found Mary. Jo's body inside. He removed her from the vehicle and carried her back to the shore. The subsequent investigation published the position. Mary Jo's body was in when she was found. Donald Mills tells the medical examiner who performed the autopsy to Claire Drowning as the cause of death. This would be in line with the story that Ted Kennedy told but there were dissenters in John Farrar is account. He describes Mary Jo's body as he found her. She was in the back seat of the car with her hands clenched around the underside of the seats and her head pressed against the back footstool. Her position in the back seat is likely part of the evidence used when proposing the theory that Mary Jo was asleep in the back seat of the car but Farrar offers a different explanation. Ferrara Aurora believed that Mary Jo managed to climb in the back seat of the submerged overturned car. Her head placement indicated that she was positioning earning herself to keep her head in an air bubble within the car with that in mind. It's possible that the cause of death wasn't drowning rather. Mary Jo suffocated as she slowly used up all the oxygen in the car. This also raises the Morbid question of how long Mary Jo was down down there struggling to breathe waiting for help that never came and Ferraris own words. If Ted Kennedy had called for help immediately you could have gotten married joe out of the car within twenty five minutes of the crash. Farrar went so far as to estimate that Mary Jo could have lived for. Up to two hours after the crash and thus could have been saved if only Ted had gone for help given how explosive that information is wonders whether it came up during the subsequent investigation and trial well it did but only in the sense that Farrar was not allowed to testify his opinions about how Mary Jo could have lived for longer for our would stayed in interviews that he wanted to give his statement taint Kennedy's prosecutor but he was never summoned Kennedy justified leaving the scene of the accident by claiming he was tired in shock doc and that enough time had passed that he was sure Mary Jo had drowned. We know this for sure. However Long Mary Jo did manage Wjr to survive down there? She'd been dead for hours when her body was finally recovered then again. Is there a sliding scale of blame dependent on how long long it took Mary Jo Kopechne in to die is Ted Kennedy less culpable for what happened. If Mary Jo was already dead when he fled the scene the numbers not not exact but there have been cases in which a drowned person has been resuscitated up to forty or even fifty minutes after they stopped breathing the the window for recovery can be even longer if hypothermia is in play the water around Chappaquiddick island would have likely been in the low to high sixties on that night though it could have been potentially lower since the son had been set for several hours though it's not freezing temperatures it is possible for hypothermia to set in if a body is submerged in water of that temperature for a prolonged amount of time. All of this is to say that if ted Ted Kennedy had gone immediately for help. It's entirely plausible that Mary Jo could have been rescued from the car. Andrew desiccated was the right medical. Oh care she may have even been able to make a full recovery. We'll never know what was possible because due to Ted Kennedy's inaction. Mary Jo wasn't recovered until ten hours after she went in the water. There is no rating for this one. Whether Mary Jo survived for hours I lasted. Only minutes doesn't really change take Kennedy's actions. Even if Mary Jo died quickly after the crash as Ted suspected he should have done on everything possible to save her he didn't and now we'll never know if Mary Jo could have been rescued. We're going to wrap up by going <music> over some of the smaller alternative theories about what really happened on the night of July eighteenth to start. We're going to examine one theory that further further removed blame from Kennedy on account of the fact that he wasn't even driving the car when it crashed according to this line of thinking king after Kennedy spotted look he pulled over on Dyke Road and not out of the car his plan was to walk back to the cottage inch and get a ride from someone else leaving Mary Jo to drive tents car back to the hotel. Mary Jo was unfamiliar with the Bulky Unwieldy L. D. Oldsmobile like Ted. She didn't even have a sense of where she was on the road until it was too late and she had driven off the bridge and into the Water Ted was still walking back towards the cottage. When the crash happened he rushed to the scene and tried to save Mary Jo but couldn't and the rest of the events generally carried out as the official story says they did this one of course raises the question of why Ted would claim he was driving the car Dr if he really wasn't when the fact that he hadn't even been in the car help absolve him of guilt? The car was still his Ted might have suspected suspected that few people would believe that he would have let Mary Jo drive his car alone claiming to have been driving would have actually raised fewer questions than telling the truth and he hadn't been in the car at all <hes> this one feels a little flimsy what seems more likely as that the more outlandish theories like this one came about as a result of the gap in understanding because we simply don't know every detail of what happened in the minutes leading up to the accident it it is possible to put out a wide range of alternatives series of events this next one however might actually have some way to it. According to one theory Mary Jo Kopechne he actually tried to leave the party much earlier than eleven fifteen she was tired and may have even been suffering from a headache. She knew knew she wasn't in a state to drive and she didn't want to bother any ever fellow guests so she stepped outside the cottage and crawled into the back of Ted's Oldsmobile a bill to take a nap Ted Dro- of made a wrong turn and crashed the car all while being unaware that Mary Jo was asleep in his backseat. Now this may seem to help absolve him further and explain why he waited to report the accident. There would have been much less of a rush to get the police involved if Ted didn't I didn't know there was someone trapped in the car but again we come back to the question of why did Ted Kennedy never clarify that while dish inally both growth garden and Markham said the Ted had told them about Mary Jo on the night of the accident right after it happened all in all we think the theories that modify modify who was driving and what Ted Kennedy New Are Pretty Flimsy. The official story Ted was driving. Mary Jo was in the passenger seat and Ted knew that she was still in the car. When he failed to report? The accident still seems most likely the remaining question though concerns ends one of the most damning mysteries of this entire incident hearing all of this. You have to wonder how on Earth Kennedy Kennedy managed to walk away from this event serve no jail time and continue on to a successful decades long career as a United States senator in interviews conducted in the years after the chappaquiddick incident John Farrar and others indicate that there was some kind of cover up our final final tag conspiracy tackles the question of whether there was a cover up in the chappaquiddick incident. I want to say outright. I don't think there it was at least not in the way that some do on the fact that Ted Kennedy was tried for the crime of leaving the scene of an accident and even sentenced to jail l. time albeit in a suspended sentence kind of removed this event from cover up territory. This feels more like old money New England exerting influence to minimize the damage after all. No one at the party knew that Mary Joe had left in the hours after it happened since she left her. I behind Kennedy's driver John Crimmins was at the party. It was totally possible course of action for Ted to insist that crimmins women's jump in the water and then tell everyone that crimmins was the one driving the car during the crash Kennedy also could've put Markham or garden up up to admitting that they were the ones behind the wheel he allegedly did this but that story comes from disgruntled residents of Martha's Vineyard and unfortunately there's little truth to back it up. We don't think there was a sinister cover up in chappaquiddick because the car was found and linked to Kennedy before he would have been enable to organize one now that isn't to say that he wasn't considering it consider the fact that he made a point to speak with the innkeeper of his hotel at two in in the morning and fresh clothes effectively establishing something like an alibi but then again why go to the police if that was his plan plan even after the car was linked to him Kennedy could have claimed to have not been the driver used the conversation with the innkeeper as his support that he was in his hotel and have one of his men. Take the fall for the accident. Maybe he didn't because he knew through his lawyers has friends his power as a senator and the influence of the Kennedy name he would turn out just fine and he did though the chappaquiddick scandal did prevail prevail over Kennedy's future efforts to run for president and likely is the key reason he never made it to the Oval Office. It's not like Kennedy's life was ruined in the aftermath of the incident. During his televised speech Kennedy called on the people of Massachusetts to help them work through the incident don't they did. I re electing him. Consistently over the next four decades and people today are entitled to representation by men who inspire their utmost competence this reason I would understand full well why some might think it bright for me to resign so I ask you tonight. Igla Massachusetts think this through with me in facing this decision you think your advice making it. I think you're praised the chappaquiddick. Incident is one of the most famous scandals in American can political history. There are few instances in the history of our country were a sitting politician was embroiled in a case of manslaughter and managed manage to save some of his career in the fallout. We'll never know the full true story of what happened on that dark night in July the two people oh who did are dead in their wake. All we can do is wonder overall. There's a clear theory that seems to be the absolute right eight one the missing our does seem to be real. It's more than likely that Ted Kennedy's timeline of events regarding when he left the Party and when he crashed is not accurate and the deputy sheriff look did spot his car pulled over on the side of the road after midnight however we can't steed whether whether this was deliberate deception Kennedy's art or just a false recollection of events if we accept that the missing our is real it also becomes uh-huh easier to accept that Ted was drunk or at least somewhat impaired that night in that it factored into the crash and his actions in the hours following but again it's impossible to save for sure and the case of Chappaquiddick the official story likely isn't the full truth but with fifty fifty years common gone since it happened. It's the only truth we're ever going to get <music>. Thanks again for tuning into our conspiracy theories summer of sixty nine special and if you enjoyed this episode checkout podcast continued retrospective into the summer of sixty nine from July twenty second through August ninth ninth the summer of Sixty Nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests is cheaper Zodiac killer. We'll be back with a new episode of conspiracy theories next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be be sure to check out our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us. If you enjoy away the show the best way to help still leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at our cast network work until then remember the truth isn't always the best story and the official story isn't always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and as part of the par cast network it is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound sound design by Russell Nash With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley this episode Soda Conspiracy Theories was written by calling McLaughlin and Stars Molly Brandenburg and Carter Roy and now that this episode is finished. Here's the clip of our first episode of the par cast original con artists. It's about Bernie madoff off a top Wall Street market maker who operated an elaborate Ponzi scheme and con thousands of clients out of almost sixty five billion dollars search for and subscribe to Con Artists On spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash con artists to listen now now. It's a rainy morning on Lexington Avenue in New York City. The Sky brightened slightly a special agent ca troby and agent Kong park the car the December sunrise makes little difference to CA- tropy who's been up since four four A._M.. Working this case just off to seven thirty they enter the luxury apartment building situated a myth three blocks from central park among the agents flash their badges at the doorman and take the elevator to the penthouse they here to catch a thief. The two young agents surprised to find the man waiting at the penthouse tool though he wears a pale blue bathrobe. He doesn't look like a man who's been up late partying in fact with his silver hair and wrinkles. He doesn't look like a man who's ever up late partying surprisingly he's smooth and collected and simply not when the officials ask if he knows why they're here he's being betrayed by his own sons. After a short chat agents could Shopian Kong allow the thief to dress he chooses expensive clothing from the penthouse closet and agrees to go into the F._B._i.'s offices for questioning the agent pulls out his handcuffs and tells the man to extend stint his arms as the cold metal manacles click around Bernie madoff wrists sixty four point eight billion in dollars vanish forever much of it will never be returned because most of that money money in retirement accounts charity endowments family fortunes never existed in the first place it was to quote made off just one big lie welcome to con artists apart cost original. I'm Alistair maiden every week we peel back the layers of history's greatest deceptions and tell the stories of the hustlers swindlers and fraudsters that orchestrated castrated them. I'll dive into their psychology breakdown that tricks and explain why anyone might full for a con- connaught says seeks to explore cons this from all angles the perpetrator the victim the world they lived in and the thing that forced them to fool O._B.. Now first episode we'll cover the upbringing and early influences of our fraudster will understand what experiences shaped their mindset and historical context then informed their ability to perpetrate their cons in Partu. We'll watch the wheels come off their scheme. As their victims recognized the lie. We'll detail how our subject was eventually caught the fallout and where they are today today. We're beginning the story of Bernie madoff architect of the world's biggest known Ponzi scheme in part one of our investigation. We'll dive into the life of Bernie madoff and try try to understand why a man already inundated with incredible wealth which assigned to orchestrate history's largest financial scam next week impart to we'll follow the S._e._C.'s near misses in a decade long game of cat and mouse and the catalyst that finally brought made off down from the nineteen eighties through two thousand eight having an investment account with Bernie Ernie made off was either a much sought after privilege and up across status symbol or something you're completely in the dark about but everything about these investments investments everything made of created was a complete lie. His downfall left many trusting clients destitute and the weld completely stunned at the magnitude of his deception he stole from celebrities billionaire investors Holocaust survivors athletes and team owners he stole from individuals and charities retirement funds and nest eggs. He stole from his friends. He stole from his family. The web of deceit was so complex that a significant portion of those affected was shocked to learn that they were defacto clients of of medoff's as many as thirty seven thousand people felt the devastating fallout of made offs demise. It was truly the biggest financial scandal in world history. His modus operandi was a fairly standard Ponzi scheme named for Conman Charles Ponzi. A ponzi scheme is a redistribution of wealth hiding behind a fake investment scheme it takes money from new investors and handed to old ones. I meaning that the only way to pay the old investors is to find more and more people to buy into the fraudulent system without a steady stream of new blood. The entire operation goes up in flames. It is a system always on the verge of disaster and and it is completely illegal but he didn't just use this Ponzi scheme to prey on Americans made off stretched his close to Europe South South America even Africa by two thousand eight made of claimed he had sixty eight point four billion dollars in assets under management don't and yet for decades made off was known as a genius called magnetic and reassuring by those who bragged about ultimate the country clubs and charity guards. They likened him to his personal symbol. The bull as in bull market made off decorated rated his office with Bulls to match this perfectly crafted image is what allowed made off to thrive his trademark charismatic charismatic presence and manufactured mystique shrouded him behind an exalted reputation. He was immensely wealthy. He was of high taste he rarely met with clients but the ones that did meet him assured potential customers that investing with Bernie NATO was the closest thing to assure diabet- Wall Street could offer a con artist operates on what people people believe about them more than anything else and Bernie Madoff was tinkering with his public image as soon as he could do business made off was born April twenty ninth nineteen thirty eight in Queens New York Bernie's father Ralph ran a sporting goods store for most of his childhood good but in the nineteen fifties the store went out of business leaving the family in dire straits this failure burned itself in Bernie's mind and he did not under any circumstance wants to ever fail his family in such a way he would do whatever it took to avoid wait the pangs of unstable economic security and would cultivate a life that made failure impossible it was this obsessive quest quest for stability that instigated his relentless pursuit of wealth but it was also why he fell in love at such a young age at Sixteen Bernie mets thirteen year old ruth alpern. He was a son kissed boy scouts and lifeguard. She be a bubbly low rents goal. They married five years later in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine when he was at Hofstra and she was at Queens College most immediately made of turned his attention toward achieving the type of success that would place him among the American economic elite a few weeks off to the wedding adding while still a college senior. He filed the papers to open Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities Aka B. L. M._I._s. like most twentysomethings not something to start their own business made offer light on friends and family to get off the ground. Luckily for him made offs new father-in-law Saul Alpern had his own an accounting firm and began referring his clients friends and family members to Medoff Alpin even gave made off a desk in his office somewhat that's ironically made of first and most important goal was to gain and build the trust of his clients. It came naturally to him. Even at such a young teenage he was charismatic driven outgoing and dedicated to making everyone around him as rich as possible unfortunately eh it was this very penchant for trust that would ultimately push into betray the tens of thousands of people that relied on him made offset investing with a strategy called riskless arbitrage which involve buying stock at one price while having already locked in a sale the same stock at a higher price he was able to buy and sell the same stock simultaneously thanks to the fact that at the time most host major cities had their own stock market according to financial journalists Diana Henry Kes- it's a rule in investment advising to only recommend suitable investments suitability is determined by investors willingness and ability personal circumstances to to take on a certain level of risk. This rule is legally enforced by government regulatory agencies like the Securities and Exchange Commission in the early sixties made off ignored the practice of suitability and put his clients investments into risky speculative new issue stock whether or not they'd be able to handle that amount of risk made of knew this was wrong and knew it was illegal. He did it anyway. His disregard netted made off securities almost thirty thousand dollars in cash by nineteen sixty two after just over two years in business. That's a little over a quarter million dollars today but in May nineteen sixty two the market crashed and just like that almost all of made offs clients suffered serious losses this put bunny at a crossroads that he he would face several times in his life a junction between his pride and the truth but as it did time and again made of ambition and persuasive arrogance knew that if he wanted to reach his goals admitting failure was not an option so he took the cash he had on hand and bought back his clients stocks at the price they invested effectively erasing using the losses because he was trading in the little known little regulated O._T._C. market. None of the clients were any the wiser they I still had their money and kept their investments and good faith in Bernie madoff whether he knew it's not made was laying out the groundwork for what social psychologist Marie Cocco Ver- identifies as the eight steps of the successful con. The first of these steps is finding a victim made of quickly realized that as long as his clients got their money back they weren't liable to ask too many questions the pursuit of money Johny left many to be easily manipulated but this manipulation would have to wait as Bernie's quick fix gave rise to a secondary problem mm-hmm while he had erased his clients losses thereby maintaining their trust he done it at the expense of all his money. There was no no way for him to continue his business and save face except there once Bernie had had married rich and with that came privilege he leveraged his close relationship with his father-in-law Saul Alpern to secure a loan to the tune of thirty thousand thousand dollars according to Medoff alpern loaned him the money and made off repaid him before the end of nineteen sixty four at this point. It seems that it just twenty six years old Bernie madoff had perfected his ability to gain people's trust he'd broken the law deceived his clients taken advantage of a family member and come out all the richer despite escaping this early scare made of still felt as though he had the long road ahead of him because he dealt in smaller markets with smaller clients. The WHO's who of Wall Street still gave him the cold shoulder made of himself admitted to journalists Steve Fishman that this treatment infuriated him as it only seemed to remind him that he was an outcast. Whatever life was like among the bigwigs of Wall Street Bernie wanted it and he would do whatever it took to get there after his father-in-law bail to amounts of a criminal stock trading failure in nineteen sixty two it appears Bernie madoff went legitimate? We say appears because it's unclear exactly when made off Ponzi scheme began both the F._B._i.. And his associate Frank De scally junior believed that the fraud stance it by the late nineteen seventies however no one has definitively proven this accusation so for this time period we have to take the stand in by of innocent until proven guilty but even if he wasn't engaging in crime outright he spent the next decade setting the stage for the greatest assist financial fraud in history through the nineteen sixties and Seventies Bernard L. made off investment securities grew into a robust but still small broker dealer business engaging an actual legitimate market making and proprietary trading each of these was a separate Britt legal arm within the same company B.. L. M._I._S. was soon considered a major market maker in O._T.. Stocks and then on the New York Stock Exchange according to fraud magazine made of S- firm with sometimes responsible for a whopping ten percent of stock volume traded in a single day but it wasn't as if ten percent of investors were working directly with madoff he engaged in payment for order flow this this is a somewhat controversial practice where a small brokerage firm directs their clients orders to a third party to execute the trade often without the client's clients knowledge the third party in this case made off then paid the smaller brokerage firm a fee for directing business to them the the standard fee being a penny per share. This allowed B. L. M. I. S. to execute large orders on the stock market and to quickly expand expand this only accelerated with the arrival of Peter Madoff Bernie's little brother after joining the firm in June one thousand nine hundred sixty nine pizza made off helped create groundbreaking computer trading systems instrumental to the firm success made of securities. I was always at the forefront of technological innovation on Wall Street and that's part of how Bernie's Ponzi scheme was able to thrive according turning to social psychologist Marie Cocco for cons thrive in terms of transition and fast change when new things are happening and the old ways as of looking at the world no longer suffice and in the advent of the computer age the made offs were right in the middle of perhaps the biggest cultural transition the world has ever seen Wall Street's brands new computer systems were right for deceit abuse and misunderstanding thing but at first they actually bolstered the Mehta family's reputation B. L. M._i._S. systems was soon licensed to other market makers and financial financial

Senator Senator Ted Kennedy Ted Mary Jo Senator Ted Mary Jo Kopechne Chappaquiddick Island Party Mary Jo official Chappaquiddick Mary Joe ted Joseph Kennedy Kennedy Kennedy Family Ted Likely Ted Drinking Chappaquiddick Ted Reemphasized Bernie Madoff Water Ted
Sen. Ted Kennedy & American Liberalism

Fresh Air

48:02 min | Last month

Sen. Ted Kennedy & American Liberalism

"This message comes from. npr sponsor. Bank of america. We're all shopping for essentials online. These days with the bank of america cash rewards credit card. You can choose to earn three percent. Cashback on online shopping essentials visit bank of america dot com slash more rewarding copyrights when he twenty bank of america corporation from. Whyy in philadelphia. This is fresh air. I'm dave davies. Infra terry gross today author. Neil gabler remembers the life achievements and personal failings of the late. Senator ted kennedy. He was a liberal voice in the us senate for decades effectively using his relationship skills his mastery of public policy and his deep knowledge of senate rules to advance a progressive agenda even when democrats were in the minority but he also led a life marked by tragedy and scandal and gabler says his personal lapses helped undermine the moral authority of american liberalism. Gablers published the first volume of a two part. Biography of kennedy called catching the wind. Also justin chang reviews happiest season. A new romantic comedy. Starring kristen stewart and mackenzie davis as a lesbian couple keeping their relationship secret at a family christmas gathering our guest today. Neil gabler is known among other things as a film critic and historian of the entertainment world but his new book is about politics and the course of american liberalism of the past fifty years. He's written the first volume of a two part biography of the late. Senator edward kennedy kennedy was the youngest of three charismatic brothers who ran for president in the twentieth century. His life was marked by notable political achievements. But also by tragedy and scandal and while he never secured the democratic nomination for president he became a force in the senate where he served for. Nearly forty seven years a proponent of liberal ideas until his death in two thousand nine neal gabler is the author of five previous books. Including biographies of walter winchell. Walt disney and barbra streisand. He joins us from his home in amazon's at long island to talk about his new book catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty two to nineteen seventy five. Well neal gave her welcome back. Fresh air thank you very much. Why did kennedy matter this much to you. And it's not a life unexamined. Why did we need a new look at his achievements in life. Well david begin books not with a subject but with a question so when i set out to write this book it wasn't as if i were saying i have to write in edward kennedy biography. It was that i was fixated on the issue of what happened to american liberalism. Which i regard as the largest political question of the last sixty years the one that changed the tectonic plates of american politics. The way to go about answering that question was by looking at the preeminent. Liberal of the last sixty years was senator edward kennedy. I always look at these lives as metaphorical and so i thought by examining this life by telling the story i would be telling another story as well. Which is the story of what happened to liberalism. So that's how. I got to edward kennedy of course. The life provides the narrative engine for the book and liberalism provides the thematic text for the book. And what an eventful life you know. Kennedy came on the scene in the early sixties when liberalism was about to have. It's it's great moment. I mean we you know. We had the voting rights act and socials and medicare and and The civil rights act and great society legislation And he was there at the beginning. That's the book called catching the wind. And it sort of seems the perfect metaphor for him. Coming in at that moment Before we talk about his life. I'm interested in your thoughts on the state of liberalism. Today you know looking at the election that we just experienced Dinner the repudiation of donald trump and yet him getting more votes than he did in four years ago the state of the congress the supreme court state legislatures and the democratic party whereas liberalism now well liberalism years ago. Became really a kind of profanity. I mean people. Talk about the l word and i'm not sure that that is his changed entirely In this current environment liberalism. At the time i write about at the beginning of Of ted kennedy's career was the prevailing ideology in america The book is subtitled. Edward kennedy the liberal our because historians have called that period in the nineteen sixties. The liberal our when liberalism was at its ascendancy but over the sixty years You know since you know. Liberalism has his declined mightily. And it certainly doesn't have the potency. Now that it had then and i think liberals have to fight to get their ideas into a political marketplace so liberalism is is still under siege. It's been. it's been a long long siege. It's been a siege that probably begins in the late nineteen sixties and has continued almost unabated until today right a new state of there are many causes for this but part of the story is losing. Its moral authority. As i examined all of the various aspects of liberalism. My conclusion was that what liberalism had that conservatism at that. Time did not have was moral authority and that liberalism sustained itself not on the basis that was providing all sorts of economic benefits for americans particularly white americans but that it had this sense of moral authority to which many americans subscribed in a sense though. This may be overstating things It was the right thing to do. Liberalism promoted the right causes. Liberalism created community liberalism worked for the the voiceless and the powerless and the disenfranchise in the marginalized and what what really contributed to the decline of liberalism in my estimation was not as many historians say a death by a thousand cuts so that essentially bled to death but it was a larger thing that subsumed all of these others As kind of samurai sword cut and that was that liberalism was stripped of. Its moral authority. That's a very complicated process. It's the process. I discussed in this book and ted kennedy contributed to that loss of moral authority through his own behavior but liberalism had moral authority. It's a stained it and liberalism lost more authority. And that is. I think it lost a lot of the power that it had in the society in nineteen sixty two Ted kennedy comes to the senate just thirty years old. His brother Is president having won the election in nineteen sixty What was his reputation in washington to then to the extent that he had won his reputation. Washington was that he had gotten to the senate and this is not an an entirely wrong characterisation because he was a kennedy and because his his brother was president states in his father was one of the wealthiest men in america and at thirty years of age. That's how he got into the senate running a race against the nephew of the senate of the excuse me of the house. Majority leader john mccormack so it was a kind of battle of massachusetts family. Dynasties and ted was completely ill equipped by experience to be a senator. Not only was the only thirty years old but he had no experience in elective office. He was an assistant. Da in suffolk county So he comes to the senate with the idea that you know he's kind of the kennedy family his bought his way into the senate and he's going to be a show horse he is going to be A guy who really isn't there to work very hard. But to luxuriate in the idea of being a senator rather than working at being a senator and i have a chapter in the book that i call the least because the expectations of ted kennedy were always the least. He was the least of the kennedys and regarded himself that way so this wasn't only an external judgment. It was his own internal judgment that his brothers were always much greater than he. He was the least right and the senate that he went into was different kind of body. Then i mean you know. Seniority ruled a lot of the committee. Chairs were these southern democrats that had been there for decades and they ruled with iron fist. Your legislation didn't get anywhere unless they said so He said about learning this. Tell us tell us what is approach was ted kennedy. Had what his mother called a nice child talent. And what rose kennedy meant by. That was he was. He knew how to ingratiate himself. He understood deference in the kennedy family. He was the kind of gesture he was a pet He was actually literally afterthought the kennedy family had named their yacht. The ten of us never expecting that there would be an eleventh of them but of low and behold ted kennedy arrives and he arrives as an afterthought any arrives as you know someone who is you know again. The least in the family has he was the least almost everywhere else. But that ninth tiles. Talent became a very valuable tool in the institution of the senate which ted kennedy treated very much as he treated his own family. He was extremely deferential. He was a kind of of gesture in the senate not just in in the sense that he was a joke but in the sense that he knew how to jolly up the other senators he was He ingratiated himself in the senate and so when he came there The other senators realize something that they had no expectation of of realizing which which was that they liked. Ted kennedy he was likable any understood his role in the senate but there was something else as well. And that is ted. Kennedy worked very very hard and that was also something that was not expected by the senate bowls and the other leaders of the senate but ted kennedy wanted to establish himself as someone who could gain the respect of his senate elders by showing how hard he would work anti-debt. Maybe you could give us an example of ted kennedy using his mastery of relationships and knowledge of the senate to to make incremental gains and advance a progressive agenda later on when you know. Republicans ruled the senate. Well let me give you an example of the one of the most important pieces of legislation. That ted kennedy passed. Which was the children's health insurance program one of the things that ted kennedy always did when he introduced a piece of legislation is he said to a staff. Find me a republican meaning a republican who would co sponsor the bill. He wasn't just there to introduce a bill He was there to get a bill passed and he understood particularly when the republicans rule the senate that he needed a republican cosponsor. In the case of children's health insurance he decided that he would recruit orrin hatch Or to see if he could recruit orrin hatch To cosponsor the program and he did a couple of things that were very interesting. One there was a member of ted kennedy staff by the name of nick littlefield. Who had in a previous life been a broadway singer and orrin hatch was a composer sun. He would bring littlefield to hatch's office and have littlefield sing orrin hatch compositions which very much ingratiated orrin hatch. But the other thing he did was that he knew that orrin hatch would probably have no particular interest in passing another piece of government legislation. Even one that would help children and and the whole idea of was to assist children whose parents made too much money to qualify for medicaid. But not enough money to provide health insurance. So what he did is. He has a conservative republican from utah and mormon if he would join his cause and the way he brought hatch into it was to say that hatch who is very much as a mormon very much against smoking that the chip would be financed by a steep tax on tobacco. This gave hatch a reason to join. Ted's 'cause it would discourage tobacco. Smoking and ted got a for his bill. We need to take a break here. Let me reintroduce you. We're speaking with neal gabler. His new book is the first volume of a two part biography. It's titled catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty to nineteen seventy five. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is fresh air. So when ted kennedy. I get into the senate i mean. He's thirty years old when he begins. And he's not there two years before strat tragedy strikes his life Tell us where he was when his brother jack. The the president was assassinated in dallas. Ted kennedy was presiding over the senate now to understand how this works in the senate freshman. Senator are usually put in the role of presiding over the senate. It's a thankless task. But when when the news came into the senate ted kennedy was on the dyas Presiding over a debate and He was approached Told that something had happened. There are various versions of the story. he was led down from the diocese out into the lobby. And depending on. Which story you you believe either. Read the account of his brother being shot on an api wire service or he was told by one of the senate a officers about That obviously triggered a whole mayhem as he then raced around the city trying to get a phone so that he could access his brother robert to find out what had happened but the phones were all dead in washington. Because after the news of the shooting at that point they didn't know whether he'd been assassinated or not That news spread throughout and clogged up. All the phone lines. So ted spent the next few hours racing around washington seeing if he could find act. Phone lines to contact bobby to find out what had happened. He eventually finds bobby bobby. Of course. I was deeply devoted. His brother jackie served as his attorney. General how was ted kennedy's reaction to this tragedy. Different from bobby kennedy. Bobby kennedy was not only devoted to jack kennedy. But in some ways he lived vicariously through his brother He was an adjunct to his brother. He served his brother in every possible way. And when john kennedy died it was not as if a piece of had died but as if he himself died and he was mobilized by grief. There is no question that that bobby kennedy absolutely ceased to function. he ceased to function. And that put on ted the youngest of the brothers the burden of trying to carry the family forward so ted didn't have if one wants to call it the luxury of of tragedy of luxuriating in zone in his own tragedy Ted had to move forward and he did and he did But it this was one of the things that i think it one has to understand about the kennedy family and. I don't think that it's been discussed enough. But it's something that patrick kennedy ted son said to me Any said you know of all the tragedies you know we see this kind of stoicism that to which the kennedys reacted to tragedy And we all sit there in certain amount of admiration that they persevere they keep going but he said in some ways that's misleading because the kennedy family all suffered from post traumatic stress disorder and though ted persevered he definitely suffered from this post traumatic stress disorder which became a kind of of of kennedy endemic to the kennedy family so After jack is lint lyndon johnson becomes the president no friend of the kennedy family really particularly had a hostile relationship with bobby kennedy and now ted is in the senate and lyndon lyndon johnson surprises a lot of the kennedys by aggressively taking up the civil rights legislation that jack kennedy had an endorsed but it never gotten very far with and then proceeded on that there was civil rights act. There was the voting rights. Act there was medicare a whole series of what came to be known as great society legislation. What was ted kennedy's role in any of this. Well as you pointed out lyndon johnson. And bobby kennedy were absolutely loggerheads in large part because bobby felt that johnson was really insincere came to liberalism and that he would not carry forth john. Kennedy's agenda turned out. Of course he was wrong. But that did dissuade. Bobby kennedy from disliking lyndon johnson lyndon johnson dislike the kennedys because he felt that they were condescending to him and that they didn't respect him but ted kennedy was different because ted kennedy was not a hater. Ted kennedy was in ingratiate. Or as i said earlier so lyndon johnson and ted kennedy had a different kind of relationship lyndon johnson tried to work. Ted kennedy and in fact is ted was the first to admit he tried to separate the brothers thinking that he might be able to get ted to form some sort of alliance with him against bobby. But ted also said that that was an impossibility. No one could ever divide the kennedys. Nevertheless ted unlike bobby was willing to work with johnson and did work with johnson. He did not have that antipathy toward johnson. That bobby had and so we worked on the civil rights act of sixty four and he worked on the voting rights act of sixty five and he worked with johnson Even on the war. In vietnam bobby broke with johnson relatively early. But ted did not. Ted continued almost unconscionably to support. Johnson's prosecution of the war in vietnam for a fairly long time again. Even as as bobby had turned against johnson. Neil gabler book is the first volume of a two part biography. It's titled catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty two to nineteen seventy five. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm dave davies. This is fresh air. This message comes from. Npr sponsor capital one to banking reimagined capital. One checking and savings accounts have no fees or minimum and top-rated banking app. That lets you manage your money anytime anywhere. Check on the account. Balance deposit checks pay bills and transfer money on the go. This is banking reimagined. What's in your wallet capital one. Na member fdic speaking with journalist and historian neil gabler about his new book. It's the first of a two volume biography of the late senator. Edward kennedy and the course of liberalism in american politics. It's titled catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty to nineteen seventy five. Ted kennedy lost another brother. robert kennedy was assassinated After winning the california primary in nineteen sixty eight as part of his presidential campaign So that was a tr- a another deep tragedy for the kennedy family but the following year in nineteen. Sixty-nine was an incident which would probably do more to undercut. Ted kennedy's moral authority and reputation than anything else in his life. This was the the chappaquiddick incident. I mean a lot of people remember this but may not remember the detail. Some some younger listeners may not recall it no of it at all. you're just give us the bare outlines. What happened in this this episode. This was the the summer after bobby. Kennedy's assassination and in ted was in a dire state described. The state that bobby kennedy was in after john. Kennedy's assassination at this point. Ted kennedy was in a similar state. he was asked to come to chappaquiddick off. Martha's vineyard to participate in a meeting of bobby. Kennedy's a group of bobby. Kennedy's former staffers. They were known as the boiler room girls because they manage the room in which State delegations were monitored. He went there for a kind of wake for bobby He also went there to participate in regard in a race. He was a great sailor. And what happened that evening. Evening of the party on chappaquiddick island is one of the boiler room girls named mary jo kopechne e and ted kennedy went off in a car Ted said they were going to go back to the mainland back to martha's vineyard edgar town but on the way back. Ted took a wrong turn. One off a very narrow bridge over a pond cold pond and the car sales off the bridge over turned into the water was about seven feet of water. Ted managed to free himself from car through a window then said that he dove back toward the car to try and remove. Mary jo kopechne e but he tried repeatedly and the current was very very strong and he could not Pull her out of the car eventually. mary jo kopechne e died. She drowned in the car is a womanizer and even as a drinker. So there were those elements was he drunk Where he and mary jo. Kopechne is going off to have some sort of tryst which seems highly unlikely. Whatever one thinks of. Ted kennedy highly unlikely that mary jo kopechne would have done that She was a strict catholic and it impugns reputation but also to to be Fair to ted kennedy in this in this instance. It would be very unlikely. That ted kennedy would have gone off with one of bobby's about the room girls. It's just not something would have done now. Ted did not report the accident for another ten There were reasons. He gave for that but he himself said that none of them were ex- culpable That he couldn't exculpate himself from this and and that really was the incident of quitting that had all sorts of ramifications politically for him personally and for the political cultural generally rice. Right after the accident. It was the middle of the night. And he he actually plunged into the water and swam across this little area to the edgerton went to his hotel rather than reporting it went to sleep. Got up in the morning and spent a couple of hours and by the time he reported the accident you know the car had already been spotted and they believe they had also already identified at his his and rescued had retrieved. Mary jo kopechne Body he he would eventually plead guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and getting get a suspended sentence and you know it left feeling that you know he he got. He got a treatment that no one else would have in that circumstance What what was the. What was the impact on him his his image career. The impact was that given ted kennedy's reputation. He had a reputation to his brother. But you know ted's reputation was certainly impugned didn't need much more impugning and it was almost certainly the The death of any chance that edward kennedy would have of being prisoner had states prior to that accident. It was assumed that ted kennedy would be running against richard nixon in nineteen seventy two. If he chose to run then they would have a very good chance of being elected president. And if not then then in nineteen seventy six but that doomed his chances it also did something else a. There's a line that walter mondale than senator from minnesota sad and i think it's it's absolutely true. He said when ted went over that bridge he took liberalism with him. Because if we talk about again the relationship between liberalism and moral authority. And if we look at ted kennedy as being the primary proponent of liberalism then when ted kennedy went over that bridge. He took liberalism with him because he took the moral authority over that bridge with him. Let me reintroduce you again. We're gonna take another break here. We are speaking with neal gabler. His new book is the first volume of a two part. Biography titled catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty two to nineteen seventy five. We'll talk more after a break. This is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message come from each raid. You want to invest your money. But there's one problem you're not sure where to begin. Luckily there's e-trade who offers more than just trading each rates simplifies investing without the financial jargon and has the people to offer guidance and support to make your money work hard for you for more information visit eatright dot com slash. Npr each rate securities llc. Member finra sipc. This is pressure and were speaking with me. Gabler a historian and journalist about his new book the first of a two volume biography of the late. Senator edward kennedy. It's called catching the wind. There's so much in here about a kennedy's legislative efforts and accomplishments him being involved in campaign finance reform and in the in a kind of in the background of the watergate investigation. One thing that i was new to me. I mean i knew that. Healthcare was a passion of his for decades. I didn't know That congress took a serious run at health. Care reform in the second Nixon term of nixon Just briefly what happened. How close did we come to getting a real healthcare bill. Then we came very close and the reason was that richard nixon needed one. He was reeling from the watergate investigation. Ted kennedy from nineteen sixty nine had been angling to get a national health insurance bill. And here you have these two giant adversaries Now kennedy because of chappaquiddick and because of his own interest in adding some healthcare bill and nixon because largely because of watergate seeing if they join forces to find some kind of of motive n die to pass a national health insurance bill and kennedy also had recruited wilbur mills who was the Head of the house ways and means committee to see if we could get mills to also assist with advancing a national healthcare bill in the house. So we were bringing all of these components together that is kennedy was bringing nixon and wilbur mills and of course he had himself and all the liberals on one side and they were all meeting and it's a very complicated story of how many parts there were an in this but because of watergate the labor leaders and other liberal leaders felt you know nixon needs this desperately but watergate is also going to tumble nixon and throw him out of office and we will have a greater opportunity to pass a national health. Care bill when we get a democratic congress and a democratic president and so kennedy tried to argue with them. Kennedy tried to tell them that it wasn't going to change in the way they thought it was going to change any any took the congressional director and he went down every member of the senate finance committee and convinced them tried to convince them not successfully. That all these guys were going to be there. These guys are going to win their their re-elections. The committee wasn't going to be any different. If they thought they were gonna have some better chance of passing this they were wrong and they considered kennedy and they called him. This they said you were a trader your traitor to the cause But eventually it just blew up but they came within an eyelash and kennedy would always said that the greatest regret of his career was not sitting down with nixon and getting a national healthcare bill through the congress because with nixon and kennedy working together. And also with the assistance of wilbur mills. He thought it was a doable thing about in the end. It wasn't doable. Would this have been a single payer national health system it would have been a system. No it would not have been single payer. It actually would have been a a national healthcare system that would not be that dissimilar from obamacare it had employer mandates that was what nixon was proposing Kennedy always understood. You know we always think of kennedy's being this hard liberal ideologue but kennedy was a pragmatist. Always a pragmatist. The healthcare bill that he proposed year after year after year after year. The health securite was a single payer system but kennedy also understood that you put that on the table and then you have to retreat from that to get a bill that will actually pass. That's how kennedy legislated and so no. It wasn't a single payer. Bill that would finally have emerged from this compromise. But it would have been a bill. That kennedy could then build on which is what he always sought to do you know. Let's get what we can get. Let's get the half loaf. And i'm going to bake the full off but they couldn't get the half loaf after the chappaquiddick Scandal in nineteen sixty nine. The next presidential election was nineteen seventy two and it wasn't out of the question that he would run and certainly not a question for years later in the nineteen seventy six election in the end. He didn't in either case but he did go around the country giving speeches and you know raising people's hopes and what's interesting is that he was still beloved by so many people right. I mean he kinda amazing receptions. The kennedy brand is a strong brand and ted you know. Use that brand you. Here's here's the thing. Also about that. I think is interesting. We tend to. We tend to read john. Kennedy and robert kennedy forward into ted kennedy and the ted kennedy becomes a sort of liberal icon because he bears that legacy from john and robert. But i think there's another process at work here. We read ted back into robert and john. John was nowhere near as liberal. As ted kennedy and i think one could make the argument. I would make it that even robert kennedy who is much more liberal than john and in fact use john's death to advance a much more liberal agenda is also a beneficiary of ted's liberalism. Ted became the icon of the powerless. He enjoyed that role and it became a more important role as republicans took over. The congress and is ronald reagan became president in one thousand nine hundred eighty and then you know george bush george h w bush and later george w bush ted was that flickering flame that kept liberalism alive and for those who believed in the things in which ted kennedy believed which was an activist. Government would help those who needed help. He remained he remained the outstanding figure of the left. The last story you tell them. The book is one in which an element of the old new deal coalition the progressive coalition which was You know white. Ethnic working class voters who had who had supported the new deal and and supported john kennedy. That ted kennedy lost them really over the issue of integrating schools in boston. Which according to court orders at the time included busing of students both black students and white students into different neighborhoods. Who has it was you know Passionately opposed by a lot of irish in a lot of irish american communities. Ted kennedy exactly endorse this. But but he believed in upholding the law and embracing the principle of integration. What kind of in counters did he have with these constituents who were so furious at them. Dave exactly right. I mean ted kennedy is caught between a rock and hard place. Ted kennedy is advocating for integration. Because african americans he felt deserved it but on the other hand those very supporters of his they. The ethnic irish italians of boston are feeling that this is a zero sum game and they're losing it that integration comes at their expense and though ted's endorsement was somewhat lukewarm. He couldn't turn his back on african americans and he in one thousand nine hundred seventy four. When the integration plan a quartered integration plan was going forward Ted appeared at an anti busing rally. He was not invited. He just appeared hoping that he might restore peace between the sides hoping that he might use the kennedy magic but the kennedy magic had vanished at this point and what happens then and at a subsequent appearance that he makes where a group of white bostonians gathered outside is the ted kennedy is assaulted. And in the second instance which happened outside in in quincy massachusetts the first. It was a rally in boston on the civic plaza. They're the second was in. Quincy he has to run for his life. he is being chased. He is being pelted. He's being kicked. he is being hit. He is being chased down into the boston subway and has to jump onto a train while his aides bar the gates because these people are going to go after him and try and physically destroy him and these were people who had been who had been ardent supporters of his for decades. These are our kennedy supporters. These are people who loved the kennedys but in a way. This is a harbinger of the kind of thing that we're seeing in america. In present day. America this was the core of the new deal coalition about when the kennedys began working with ted kennedy began working for integration They couldn't countenance that they turned on him. They felt that he had been a traitor to their cause. And the taken. The side of african americans against them. It was again a harbinger of to happen in america. Generally which is why end volume one with that story. Because the the notion of the rise of conservatism in the end of liberalism is somehow typified by that incident. Or those two incidents. The one in boston the one in quincy in which ted kennedy the liberal icon is chased by the very people who always supported him and his brothers. Ted being the affable guy. That i always felt comfortable in a working class bar. How did he react to this. He was shaken. He was shaken because he understood. He understood their grievance. It wasn't as if ted kennedy was some sort of ivory tower liberal who didn't get it he got it it just felt he just felt that you know it was something he couldn't embrace he couldn't embrace letting the schools remained segregated but he was so shaken and thereafter that borelli on the plaza in boston. You know he was. He was holding a cup of water and his hand was just palsied His face was flush. He knew what had happened he. He understood the forces that were being summoned against him. He understood all of that but he was powerless to deal with it. There was no easy way out as there was no easy way out now That is you know these. In the forces of contention either you embrace you know the the forces of of progressivism and integration and and multiculturalism. And whatever one wants to call it or you don't You feel that there is. There's a backlash against it. And ted kennedy was in the middle of that battle and suffered greatly for it Both personally and politically on the gable. Thank you so much for speaking with us. Thank you so very much dave. I enjoyed it. Gabor's new book is the first volume of two part biography titled catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty two to nineteen seventy five. The second volume called against the win. Edward kennedy in the rise of conservatism will appear in october of twenty twenty one coming up. Justin chang reviews happiest season. A new romantic comedy. Starring kristen stewart and mackenzie as a lesbian couple keeping their relationship. A secret at a family. Christmas gathering this is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message come from masterclass. A new year is around the corner for a lot of people that means dusting off a creative goal. Whether it's writing a book starting a garden or trying a new recipe one night a week. Maybe you just wanna take twenty minutes a day for yourself to relax and listen to someone you find with masterclass you can get intimate access and insight from some of the world's most diverse thinkers with easy to stream. Classes listened to writers like david sedaris. Learn from athletes like serena williams or watch shifts like yotam ota linke with an annual membership. You get unlimited access to more than ninety masterclass instructors from any device so you can watch at home or listen while you're out for a walk. Whatever your creative goals. There's a class that can help you get inspired this holiday when you buy an annual masterclass membership you get another annual membership free go to master class dot com slash fresh air for so many reasons. Christmas celebrations will be a lot different this year and some traditional christmas movies made before the pandemic will feature something new more gay characters and romances at the center of the story one. Such holiday release is happiest season. A romantic comedy. Starring kristen stewart and mackenzie davis. They play a lesbian couple. Trying to keep their relationship a secret during a family christmas gathering film critic. Justin chang has this review. There's lots of reasons to like the holiday. Themed romantic comedy happiest season. My favorite being kristen stewart's wonderfully down to earth lead performance. It's great to see stewart. Show off her deadpan comic chops while still retaining her gift for low key believability. She gives this in during not always subtle farce. A quiet emotional core stewart plays abby a grad student. Who's in a deeply committed relationship with harper. A journalist played by. Mackenzie davis abby. Planning to go home with harper for the holidays and meet her family for the first time figuring. It'll be the perfect opportunity to propose marriage in this early scene. Abby discusses her plans with her. Buddy john they by the irrepressible. Dan levy emmy winner for shits creek. He's the gay protagonists gay. Best friend one of many romcom conventions that happiest season cleverly recycles abbey. You and harper have a perfect relationship. Why do you want to ruin that. Engaging in one of the most archaic institutions in the history of the human. Because i want to marry her. Okay you say that. But you're actually doing is tricking the woman. You claim to love by trapping. Her in a box header normative and trying to make her your property. She is not a rice cooker. Where a cake plate. she's a human being. It's not about owning a building a life with her. She is my person and i really want everyone to know that. That's one way of looking at it. It's not until the couple are driving out to the suburbs. That harper drops a bomb show. She's never actually come out to her folks and she begs abby to pretend to be her roommate at least through the holidays. Complicating matters is the fact that harper's father play by. Victor garber is running for mayor of their hometown and she can't do anything that would jeopardize his appeal to the family crowd. Although happiest season never spells out anyone's political affiliation the conservatism of harper's wealthy family is pretty obvious at one point. Her mother played by briefly caustic. Mary steenburgen makes a snide remark about gay people and their lifestyle choice. Harper's parents are loving but incredibly demanding which seems to have negatively impacted all their children to some degree. That's why harper's oldest sister sloan play by three is so ruthlessly competitive flaunting her successful business and two young kids by contrast the lovable goofy middle child. Jane is an aspiring fantasy novelist. Who's made peace with being her parents. Least favourite. she's played by the comedian. Mary holland who wrote the script with the director. Clay duval duval made her feature filmmaking debut. A few years ago with an ensemble piece called the intervention audiences may also remember her breakthrough role in the nineteen ninety nine gay conversion therapy satire. But i'm a cheerleader. Twenty one years after that indie favourite some might find happiest season a little regressive focusing on a smart liberal minded woman who feels the need to hide her sexuality but the movie knows that coming out is something intensely personal never more so than with family. There's also the unfortunate fact that crowd pleasers have always been slow to reflect social progress a movie targeting the widest possible audience is by definition a little behind the curve. Happiest season is being billed as the first studio produced holiday. Romcom centered on lgbt characters. A milestone that feels as though it should have been passed long ago the irony of this movie and others like the two thousand eighteen gay teen comedy love. Simon is that they break new ground by offering up cozy comfortingly familiar pleasures. Happiest season is chock full of traditional. Christmas set pieces from an ice skating outing to a white elephant gift party both of which go horribly wrong. The movie has snappy. One liners a few sticky running gags and throw pillow heavy production design. Harper's family home is one of the more covetable pieces of cinematic real estate. I've seen in a while. It's all completely conventional right down to that lump. You may feel in your throat at the big emotional climax but that convention conventionally when seen from an underrepresented perspective can suddenly look quietly radical for all the broad comic shenanigans. The movie has to lead performances. That are emotionally complex. and consistent. From moment to moment. Mackenzie davis who showed chameleon mike range movies like tully and the tv show halt and catch. Fire is entirely believable as the intense not always sympathetic harper by contrast abbey's mellow go with the flow vibe nicely modulated swirling around her as always. You never catch kristen. Stewart acting and you never tire company. It's not surprising when abby feeling neglected by harper forges a connection with riley who turns out to have been harper's first girlfriend riley is played by the whip. Smart aubrey plaza. And i have to admit that part of me wouldn't have minded seeing abby and riley get together and take off a different movie might have gone that edgier route rather than the sweet cinematic comfort food. That happiest season turns out to be justin. Chang is film critic for the la times. He reviewed happiest season. Now streaming on hulu on tomorrow's show terry talks with actor hugh grant for his roles in films such as four weddings and a funeral. Bridget jones diary about a boy and music and lyrics. He's currently starring with nicole kidman in the hbo limited series. The undoing. hope you can join us. Fresh air's executive producer is danny miller. Our technical director engineer is audrey bentham with additional engineering. Help today from the martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced an edited by amy salad. Phyllis myers roberta shorrock. Sam brigger lauren. Crendall heidi soman and marie ball. Denardo the challenged. Seth kelly and kayla lattimore amr associate producer of digital media. Is molly seavy. Nesper theresa madden directed. Today show terry gross. I'm dave davies.

ted kennedy senate kennedy neal gabler ted Ted kennedy bobby kennedy orrin hatch bobby Kennedy lyndon johnson Ted bank of america johnson sixty years thirty years nixon hatch wilbur mills mackenzie davis
Scandal 49: Chappaquiddick

Political Scandals

41:12 min | 1 year ago

Scandal 49: Chappaquiddick

"In the year leading up to the twenty twenty election we're counting down the biggest political scandals in American history. This is number forty nine the chappaquiddick incident during the run-up to the two thousand sixteen presidential election then candidate handed it. Donald trump famously boasted that he could shoot someone dead in the middle of Fifth Avenue and still not lose any voters at the time. This statement was largely viewed as a typical example of trump's braggadocious headline hunting style. Nobody really thought his political career career could survive such a shocking event or could it in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine. A similar question was put to the test by Ted Kennedy a prominent. US Senator with presidential ambitions on July Eighteenth Nineteen. sixty-nine Kennedy was involved in an incident and that led to a young woman's death. This incident was so shocking that it became singularly tied to the small island where it took place. Yes it is known by a single word Chappaquiddick. Welcome to political scandals. A podcast original. I'm Richard and I'm kate. You can find all episodes of political scandals and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream political scandals for for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type political scandals in the search bar at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. And if you enjoyed today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening? It really does help. Perhaps there is no decade that shaped American history more than the nineteen sixties and perhaps there is no family that shaped the nineteen sixties. More than the Kennedys led by Patriarch. Joseph senior the blue blueblooded. Kennedy's were as close as you could get to. American royalty from their compound in Hyannis Port Massachusetts. It seemed like the Kennedys as churned out one political superstar after another but by nineteen. sixty-nine the Kennedys were in crisis after. John Jeff Kennedy was assassinated in nineteen sixty three. His brother Robert met a similar fate during his own presidential campaign in nineteen. Sixty eight with Robert steph. The last of Joseph Seniors Progeny with great political ambitions was Edward Ted Kennedy elected to the US Senate in one thousand nine hundred sixty two. At only thirty years old Ted was expected to carry on the family legacy and as the summer of nineteen sixty nine nine dawn. Many Americans expected the now. Thirty seven year old senator to announce a presidential campaign at any moment the summer of of nineteen. sixty-nine was a microcosm of the momentous change that had occurred throughout the decade from the withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam to to the stonewall riots to the Manson murders. It seemed like there was a major news headline every day in late. July of sixty nine the entire higher country was focused on the impending Apollo Eleven Moon Mission which officially commenced on July sixteenth. Ignition sequence. Start six five four three along with an estimated twenty five million Americans Ted Kennedy was surely glued to his TV V.. Watching Neil Armstrong Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins blast off into space after all the Apollo eleven mission was the culmination the nation of his brother. John's legacy eight years earlier on May twenty fifth nineteen sixty one John F. Kennedy had announced to the world world that America would put a man on the moon before the decade was done though he didn't live to see it happen. JFK's bold promise was finally being fulfilled as he watched the Apollo Eleven rocket. Ascend into the heavens. Ted Kennedy may have also been thinking about his the other likewise assassinated brother Robert. Perhaps Ted Kennedy was feeling nostalgic for Simpler Times on July Eighteenth Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine two days after the Apollo eleven mission blasted off. He hosted a small party on Chappaquiddick island. The purpose. The party was officially. Thank a group of women known as the boiler room girls who had earned their nickname by tirelessly working on the nitty gritty details details of Robert. Kennedy's presidential campaign with the one year anniversary of Robert Steph. Just past the party was a great way to celebrate his memory. Sorry and reunite the people who believed in his cause the most maybe Ted Kennedy also wanted to ingratiate himself with this group of talented women. After all many people assumed he'd be taking a crack at the presidency in the seventy two election if he had the boiler room girls in his corner he would have a great shot at the big job and there was no better way to get on their good side then by throwing a party in their honor even before the dark events that were on the horizon. The party chappaquiddick had a scandalous edge. The six women in attendance for all under thirty and single while the six men were all older and married save for one of them. Furthermore furthermore the men's wives were not invited to the festivities. It would be easy to jump to the conclusion that the party was anything but an innocent gathering rang however pundits and journalists have generally agreed that there wasn't anything untoward going on the women. Were all staying the night at the Catalunya Shores Motor Inn at nearby Edgar town while the men were staying at the Shire town in a little ways from the women's lodging none of the guests seemed to be put it off by the rumors that could spring from such party. Everyone was ready to have a good time. The rented cottage was stocked with one and a half gallons of vodka four-fifths fifths of Scotch two bottles of rum and a few cases of beer. My all accounts. This amount of alcohol was a bit overzealous in the aftermath math of the day's events all the attendees have vowed that nobody had more than two or three drinks. But the relative temperance didn't mean nobody had a good time. Stakes were grilled drinks were poured and there was some dancing around eleven. Fifteen P M Kennedy decided he was done for the night. There was a sailing regatta the next day and he wanted to be well rested not wanting to disturb. The festivities Kennedy quietly grabbed his keys from his chauffeur for John Crimmins and headed out the door but he didn't leave the party alone. According to Kennedy Twenty eight year old. Mary Jo Kopechne. He was feeling ill since Kennedy was already heading back to Edgar town. She asked him to give her a lift he obliged nobody thought much about their early departure. The party was in full swing they would see Kennedy and Kopechne e in the morning perhaps ups they should have been more concerned around seven. AM The next morning. The ferry between Edgar Town and Chappaquiddick opened for business the day's first passengers across the one hundred fifty yard channel where science teacher Robert Samuel and fifteen year old. Joseph Kapela Avella. The two of them had come to Chappaquiddick for some early morning. Fishing after having no luck along the coast they decided to cast their lines off if a bridge above Polka pond. As Samuel stood over the water he noticed the dark outline of a car resting at the bottom of the approximately six foot deep pond. He end cap. Avella immediately. Ran to a cottage four hundred feet away and called the police Edgar town police chief dominant James Arena arrive. Ten to fifteen minutes later wasting no time. He jumped into the water and swam towards the car but he couldn't reach it. The current coming from the ocean was too strong arena returned to his cruiser and radioed the dispatcher dispatcher. To send the Fire Department's rescue diver John Farrar at once has arena waited for Farrar to arrive. He had one of his officers. Run the submerged cars plate which was just visible from outside the pond L.. Seven eight Dash 200 seven for our arrived a few minutes later around eight forty five. AM in full scuba gear but arena was too preoccupied with a new development to pay much attention attention to what was happening underwater. The plates said come back. The car belonged to Ted Kennedy still clutching one end of Harar safety. Line Reno could barely process the implication of what he had just heard. Nobody had reported an accident the night before. If Ted Kennedy had been in the car when it crashed he was probably still inside but Kennedy wasn't in the car there was only the body of a solitary woman she was located in the upended car's backseat. Her face pressed up towards the full. In Ferrara's opinion this painted a grim picture. He believed that the woman hadn't died upon impact or been knocked unconscious. No she had survived the crash and did everything. She could to stay alive but the rescuers had come too late by the time for our pulled her from the wreckage. The woman was long dead while well farrar searched the river for additional bodies. A tow truck arrived to pull the car from the pond. Police chief arena was relieved to hear that the driver had just scene Ted Kennedy near the Chappaquiddick ferry landing. What had happened was horrible? But at least he didn't have a dead Kennedy on his hands as arena tried to convince dispatch to send someone to talk to Kennedy his deputy sheriff. Christopher haug looked junior pulled him aside look told arena that he had seen a car similar to Kennedy's the night before if it was indeed the same car then look comite be the only eyewitness to the previous night's events but arena pushed him aside. He didn't have time for his deputy at the moment he he needed to get in touch with Ted Kennedy by nine thirty. Am Word had finally reached the senator about the wrecked car. According according to eye witness accounts he wasn't particularly agitated when he stepped off the ferry from Edgar town about a half hour earlier he had even seem downright cheerful but when she arenas messenger gave him. The News. Kennedy didn't waste any time heading straight for the police station. To give a statement statement once he arrived the dispatcher radioed arena at the scene as arena hopped into a colleague's car to head for Edgar town deputy look pulled him aside for a second time. He reiterated that he saw Kennedy's car the night before some time around twelve forty five. Am but once again. Dan Arena brushed him off. He was more focused on his interview with a US senator. But if he had known the controversy he was about to step up into arena might have paid more attention coming up the events from the night of of July eighteenth nineteen. sixty-nine come to light and now back to the story around eleven fifteen in pm on the night of July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine thirty seven year. Old Senator Ted Kennedy left a party on Chappaquiddick island with a twenty eight year old. Mary Jo Kopechne e the next morning. Kennedy's overturned car was found at the bottom of title pool. Although the senator wasn't and didn't vehicle his companions dead body was around nine thirty. The next morning Kennedy was informed that his car had been discovered with a dead woman inside. He headed straight for the Edgar Town Police Department and by ten. AM He was sitting down with police. Chief Dominic Dominic James Arena to make a statement as arena would later recall. The power dynamic was not the usual one of police officer and person of of interest for starters when arena arrived at the station. He was still in the wet clothes he had worn when he dived into the pond. In contrast Kennedy he was put together wearing clean dry clothes he projected the image of unimpeachable American integrity. The situation was was rendered even stranger. By the fact that when the police chief arrived Kennedy was using arenas office to make some phone calls and it was Kennedy not arena. who had back up? He was accompanied by former us. Attorney Paul Markham one of the guests from the party until that point arena was operating under the assumption that the woman he found in the car had been the only passenger so in Kennedy immediately admitted that he was the one driving the car arena was placed on the back foot. What shocked arena so much was how oh uninjured Kennedy looked he would have never guessed? The senator had been in a massive car crash less than twelve hours before Kennedy. He had no visible injuries. No cuts or bruises. He wasn't wincing from lingering pain but Kennedy insisted that he had been driving driving the car. After conferring with the lawyer privately Kennedy provided arena with a statement dictated to and handwritten by Markham it read on July Eighteenth Nineteen. sixty-nine at approximately eleven fifteen pm in Chappaquiddick. I was driving. My car are on Main Street on my way to get the ferry back to Edgar town. I was unfamiliar with the road and turned right onto dyke road instead of bearing during hard left on Main Street after proceeding for approximately one half mile on dyke road. I descended a hill and came upon a narrow narrows bridge. The car went off the side of the bridge. There was one passenger with me. One missed Mary. Jo Kopechne E. The car turnover dover and sank into the water and landed with the roof resting on the bottom. I attempted to open the door and window of the car. But have no recollection of of how I got out of the car. I came to the surface and then repeatedly dove down to the car in an attempt to see if the passenger was still in the car I was unsuccessful. In the attempt I was exhausted and in a state of shock I recall walking back to where my friends were eating. There was a a car parked in the front of the cottage. And I climbed into the back seat. I think I asked for someone to bring me to Edgar town. I remember walking around down for a period and then going back to my hotel room when I fully realized what had happened this morning. I immediately contacted the police. Of Of course that last sentence wasn't true Kennedy had only gone to the authorities after he was informed that his car had been found and while arena had been extremely accommodating up to that point he had a few questions for the senator but Kennedy wasn't talking since he had just potentially confessed to a crime. He didn't want to say any more until he had contacted the family lawyer. Burke Marshall Additionally Kennedy asked Arena to hold off on releasing the statement until Marshall was looped in the chief was willing to honor. Kennedy's request request. Once the statement went public Kennedy would be inundated with questions. It was natural for him to want his lawyer by his side. However arena wasn't the only law enforcement officers circling the case? Because the car accident had involved a fatality. The registry of motor vehicles vehicles was legally required to look into the matter and the two inspectors who showed up at the Edgar town. Police Station wanted to talk to Kennedy right way before diving into their questions the inspectors red Kennedy his Miranda Rights. You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to an an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney one will be provided for you. In case the questioning turned serious. The investigators had to cover all their legal basis. However that also meant Kennedy? Didn't have to say anything without his lawyer present and until he could talk to Burke Marshall he was going to keep his mouth shut. Since Kennedy wasn't being charged with a crime yet he was free to leave the station. and Head Ed. For the family compound in nearby Hyannis Port in fact chief arena even arranged for a local resident to fly him there on a private plane so after a short ten minute flight Senator Kennedy was safely ensconced in the family compound surrounded by his family and closest advisors. It was time for Damage Control unbeknownst to the folks back at the Edgar Town Police Station family lawyer Burke Marshall was already waiting for Kennedy when he arrived at Hyannis port. The first order of business was to keep the story consistent that meant Kennedy had to keep quiet and nobody from the party could say anything about what happened the night before. Even though Kennedy's statement hadn't been released yet there was no taking it back and if any of the guests contradicted what he had told arena. It could be very bad next. Marshall had the family doctor examined Kennedy right away since he had told arena that he left the party on Chappaquiddick around eleven. Fifteen PM. That meant around ten hours had passed before. He admitted his role in the accident. To the police. To to account for this massive time gap it would be very helpful if Kennedy was diagnosed with some sort of head injury. Sure enough. The doctor doctor told Kennedy that he had a minor concussion. Now this isn't to say the diagnosis was an accurate but judging from police chief arenas is observational. Kennedy seemed very much with it even if he did have a concussion. It strains credulity to believe that he wasn't coherent aren't enough to report the accident as soon as it happened or at least before. Ten hours had elapsed as for the accident itself. Kennedy's advisors were to make it as difficult to investigate as possible at the scene of the accident. The associate medical examiner had ruled. Mary Jo Kopechne is cause of death as drowning because he concluded there was no foul play involved. An autopsy would only be required if if the district attorney called for it and that was very good for Kennedy. We don't know if pressure from Kennedy's camp had anything to do with it it but no autopsy was ever performed on. Mary Jo Kopechne as body before the decision could be reversed. The body was embalmed and flown to a funeral home in her native Pennsylvania. Additionally Kennedy's fixers arranged to have his car taken from the site and placed in storage as quickly as possible by keeping it out of the public eye there was less chance of attracting additional scrutiny however a wrench was thrown into their carefully laid plans by someone. They thought was in their corner around three PM that afternoon on July nineteenth police chief arena released Kennedy statement although he had promised Kennedy he wouldn't release the statement until Burke Marshall contacted him too much time had gone by to keep waiting any longer. The story had broken locally and reporters were practically typically knocking down arenas door with complete radio silence. Coming from Kennedy's Camp Arena. Felt like he had no choice but to read the Statement Verbatim to the reporters who were packing into the hallway. Outside his office twice he was in the middle of his third recitation. And when a phone call came in for him it was Paul Markham the former. US Attorney who had accompanied Kennedy to the police station he still Jill had no idea that arena had released the statement to the press according to the book Chappaquiddick Power Privilege. And the Ted Kennedy Cover up by Leo Damore. The conversation went something like this when arena got on the phone Markham asked if he could hold off on releasing the statement for a little longer lying through his teeth. Markham claimed they hadn't been able to get a hold of Burke Marshall yet while arena was sympathetic. There was nothing he could do. He had already released the statement in response. Markham said only two words. Oh Jesus realizing how displeased Kennedy would be arena. Tried to explain himself. He pointed out that he hadn't heard from them for several hours with reporters clamoring for more information. He had little choice in the matter. He tried to reassure Markham emphasizing that he was treating the case as a basic motor vehicle investigation since Mary Jo Kopechne is death has been ruled in accidental drowning. There wasn't a criminal component but the assurances fell on deaf ears. Markham hung up on him with the cat out of the bag. Reporters sought out a response ons from Kennedy but all they got was deafening silence. The embattled senator was not talking however now that his statement was released. The press was free to turn to other sources namely Mary Jo Kopechne his parents by four pm on on the nineteenth barely an hour after arena released the statement Kopechne. His father had given the reporters what they wanted. Although Kennedy had called Kopechne as parents earlier that day to offer his condolences Mr Kopech knee revealed that he had said very little according to him. All the senator had said was Mary Jo was in an accident an automobile accident. She was returning to take a ferry back to the mainland mainland. When the accident occurred for two grieving parents this was precious? Little Information Kennedy hadn't even said he was the one driving the car when pressed about what he did know. Mr Kopechne revealed that he was aware that his daughter and a few other women from Robert. Kennedy's campaign had gone to Martha's Vineyard for the weekend he wasn't sure what the occasion was but he knew they had gone to a party with Ted Kennedy. Although Mr Kopechne it didn't realize it he had just dropped a bombshell until that point Kennedy had never said anything about a party. If Mary Jo Kopechne he had died from an honest accident. That was one thing but a party. Men Alcohol and alcohol raised the specter of drunk driving. All of a sudden the story became came much more complex. None of Kennedy's advisers had been anticipating a serious criminal inquiry until that point. The team had been focused on preserving Kennedy's political career. Now they had to preserve his freedom coming up Ted Kennedy and his team scramble to stay ahead of Chappaquiddick story now that to the story around four. PM on the afternoon of July nineteenth nineteen sixty. Nine Mary Jo Kopechne. His father dropped a bombshell about his twenty eight year. Roll daughters debt. It had happened after a party hosted by Ted Kennedy wants Mr Kopech knees. Comments were released. The Kennedy Spin Spin machine was firing on all cylinders. The senators advisors now had to deal with too damaging implications first that Mary Jo Kopechne it was in the car with Kennedy because they were having an illicit relationship and second that Kopechne is death might have involved drunk drunk driving throughout the rest of the day. Even more advisors and lawyers flocked to the Kennedy Family Compound at Hyannis Port. This was a code red. They needed all hands on deck. Luckily another Kennedy centric event was keeping the press from digging too deeply the Apollo eleven eleven astronauts would be landing on the moon the following day. It was as if John F. Kennedy was running interference for his little brother from the grave. But even the moon landing couldn't keep the media occupied for long within twenty four hours. The chappaquiddick story was gracing racing headlines across the nation. By the morning of July twentieth reporters were swarming over Chappaquiddick. There wasn't much to see. The island was only five miles long and three miles wide with a single paved road running through it. And that's what was so damning damning for Kennedy one of the main points in Kennedy's police statement was that he was unfamiliar with the roads. He claimed he had mistakenly turned turned onto the road leading to the bridge from which his cars so fatefully plunged on the surface. This explanations seem to have some merit up until until that fateful Dr Kennedy had been chauffeured around the island. It was certainly plausible that he had been distracted by work or just hadn't paid much attention attention to his surroundings however the reality of Chappaquiddick layout made the argument rather suspect. Since there was only one main in Rhode he wouldn't need any extensive knowledge of the islands lay out in order to get from the cottage to the ferry dock. Also it would have been very difficult to accidentally turn onto the road leading to the bridge. The part of the road in question curved sharply to the left and there was a large light reflecting selecting Arrow signed to indicate this for Kennedy to end up where he did he had to make decisive right hand. Turn onto the bridge road and one more thing. The bridge road was unpaved. An extremely rutted. Even if Kennedy had mistakenly gone down it he would have immediately realized that he was going the wrong way but there was more than speculation. That Kennedy wasn't on the road by accident. There was an eyewitness some time on July twenty nine thousand nine hundred sixty nine. Several reporters spoke to police. Deputy Christopher look the day before chief arena. Hadn't been that interested in what looked was trying to tell him about the accident the reporters however were very eager to hear him out. The night of the crash look had been providing security for a dance at the Edgar Town Yacht Club after the festivities ended. Live at twelve. Thirty a m look got into his car and boarded the ferry back to his house on Chappaquiddick at twelve forty five. Am Look was driving living down the island's main road when he saw the headlights of a sedan coming towards him not wanting to take any chances that late at night look slowed slowed down as the sedan crossed paths with his truck because he was going so slowly the deputy was able to get a decent look at who is in the car. A man was driving with a woman in the passenger seat. It looked like there was something in the back either some clothing or another person the moment moment the sedan past his truck it turned onto a narrow dead end track. The locals called cemetery road but before it went very far car. The car stopped and started to back up thinking the driver must be lost. Deputy look still wearing. His police. Uniform jumped jumped out of his truck and started walking towards the sedan. Perhaps boop by having a cop coming towards him the car's driver turned back onto the main thoroughfare and sped onto another dirt road one that led to a narrow wooden bridge as look. Watch the car disappear disappear. He got a glimpse of its license plate. He could see that it started and ended with the number seven and had the letter l at the time he didn't think much of the encounter but the next morning as he saw that same sedan turned upside down. In polka pond look had a sickening realization. He had been one of the last people to see Mary. Jo Kopechne. -I alive looks story posed a major problem for Kennedy I. It casts doubt on his claim that he had gotten lost in mistakenly turned onto the bridge road if he really had gotten turned around then who better to give him directions than the police officer who was within ten yards yards of his car second. The timeframe look provided contradicted. Kennedy's he had insisted that he and Kopechne. He left the party around eleven fifteen pm an hour and a half before look ran into them and headed straight for the ferry. There is very little chance. Look I've got the time wrong. He would have been aware what time the yacht club dance ended and he would have seen the time on his car's clock so the obvious question was what were Kennedy and Kopechne he doing. Between the time they left the party and the time of the crash naturally leave. The conclusion people jumped too was that they were looking for an out of the way place to get some alone time. It certainly wouldn't look good. For a cop to catch a senator senator and his dead brother's speech writer in a late night rendezvous. So with the uninformed deputy look closing in on Kennedy's car his is hasty getaway down the bridge road would certainly make sense and with alcohol and Adrenaline coursing through his body. It wouldn't be surprising prizing if he was going to fast over the bridge with questions swirling around what really happened the night of the accident. It seemed seemed like the senator was in for a protracted legal battle. But he was a Kennedy. In America's most famous family still had quite a few friends in Massachusetts namely Edgar Town. Police chief Dominic James Arena the morning of Monday July twenty first arena China announced that Kennedy would be charged with the crime of leaving the scene of an accident without negligence involved. According to the district's special the prosecutor Kennedy had been driving with extreme caution just before the accident. The facts flew in the face of this. The registry the inspectors deduced that the car had flown twenty three feet forward and five feet to the side after it left the bridge. John Farrar the divers who recovered. Mary Jo Kopechne his body remarked. The car must have been going at a pretty good clip to land almost in the middle of the channel. But in this instance instance the facts didn't matter not for a Kennedy and especially not in his home state of Massachusetts despite news outlets calling in for a more thorough investigation the case moved forward with arenas original charges. Although leaving the scene of an accident was still a criminal title charge. It paled in comparison to something more severe lack manslaughter. This was the best he was going to get so on on Friday. July twenty fifth Kennedy pled guilty. The punishment barely amounted to a slap on the wrist. The presiding judge sentenced Kennedy to a two month. Suspended jail sentence which meant he would never see the inside of a cell five days later he was back at work in the United States. Senate making laws for the American people laws. It seemed that did not apply to him but the controversy refused to dissipate no matter how much he wanted it to. Outside of Massachusetts public sentiment was firmly against Kennedy. Luckily someone inside the senators state decided to take action. The day he returned to the Senate Kennedy found out the Massachusetts assists district attorney was opening a formal inquest into the chappaquiddick case. Once again. Kennedy's legal team had their work cut out for them. mm-hmm the inquests results were nothing short of damning. The presiding judge found that Kennedy and Kopechne. He did not intend to return. Turn to Edgar town at that time. That Kennedy did not intend to drive to the ferry slip and his turn onto the bridge road was intentional. There there is probable cause to believe that Edward M Kennedy operated his motor vehicle negligently and that such operation appears to have contributed to the the death of Mary Jo Kopechne he by the letter of the law. The judge's findings were enough for a warrant for Kennedy's arrest. However there was nothing forcing the judge to issue one giving no explanation the judge neglected to pursue the case any further? In fact act. He retired from the bench the day after filing his report. He never spoke publicly about Chappaquiddick. Again if Kennedy's team was involved here. They covered their tracks. Well there's no conclusive proof. They influenced the judge but what the team did once. The inquest was over. gives us a clue as to how eager they were to erase this embarrassing incident. Don't shortly after the inquest. The car from the accident was destroyed in a compact the bloodstained clothing. Mary Jo Kopechne was wearing. That fateful night was burned. Ted Kennedy's escape from punishment was an affront to the phrase. Justice is blind although it may have been difficult to prove that there was a criminal component to Mary. Jo Kopechne is death. There was clearly enough to warrant a more thorough investigation Gatien and yet ted Kennedy emerged from chappaquiddick unscathed. Free to live his life as though nothing had happened. His political ambitions were somewhat damaged knowing that the incident would inevitably be brought up in a presidential contest. He decided to stay out of the nineteen seventy two election although he briefly challenged Democratic incumbent. Jimmy Carter in the nineteen eighty primaries. Ted Kennedy Eddie never rose to the heights that were expected of him however that isn't to say he went quietly into the night. While the national perception of Ted Kennedy had irrevocably plummeted. He remained hugely popular in Massachusetts. In the nineteen seventy senatorial election fifteen months after chappaquiddick. Kennedy one with a whopping sixty two point two percent of the vote his seat in the Senate would never a B seriously challenge. Ted Kennedy remained a US senator until his death on August twenty fifth two thousand nine just over forty years. After the Chappaquiddick incident known as the Liberal Lion of the Senate he left a lasting legacy spearheading bipartisan legislation on education immigration and healthcare reform and while he solemnly claimed that the events Benson July eighteenth nineteen. sixty-nine haunted him every day of his life. One has to wonder was it because he felt guilt. You over Mary Jo. Kopechne is death or because that fateful car accident prevented him from becoming President and thanks for listening to political scandals. We'll be back next week with scandal. Handle number forty eight. Richard Johnson whose eighteen thirty six bid for the American vice presidency was hampered by his common law marriage. It's two one of his father's slaves. You can find all episodes of political scandals and all other podcast originals for free on spotify. Not Not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals for free from from your phone. Desktop of course smart speaker to stream political scandals on spotify just open the APP tap browse and tight political scandals in the search rich bar. We'll see you next time. Political scandals was created by Max Cutler and is a podcast studios original it is executive produced by Max Cutler Cutler sound designed by Russell Nash With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden Travis Clark and Trent Williamson. This episode of Political Olitical scandals was written by Alex Benetton with Writing Assistance by Gallagher and stars. Richard Rosner and Kate Leonard.

Burke Marshall Additionally Ke Kennedy Chappaquiddick Mary Jo Kopechne Ted Kennedy senator Ted Kennedy Eddie Edgar town Kennedy Family Compound United States Chappaquiddick island Senator US Senate Jo Kopechne Police Station Robert spotify Mary Jo
Summer of 69: Chappaquiddick Pt. 2

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

43:35 min | 1 year ago

Summer of 69: Chappaquiddick Pt. 2

"Time magazine Love Ted Kennedy in his final years in the mid to late ought the weekly magazine published a number of profiles on the long-serving senator has it began to succumb to health issues seemingly signaling that his time on this earth was coming to an end they wrote his suffering how he had persevered through the tragic assassinations of his brothers John and Robert Kennedy and his own mm physical trauma from a nineteen sixty four plane crash that left him in chronic pain the articles covered his political legacy naming him as the lion of the Senate crediting him for Supporting Barack Obama in the Democratic primaries aries and leaving him toward his nomination for president his political record comes up two by two thousand eight Ted Kennedy was the third longest serving senator in the history of the union with eight consecutive terms serving the people of Massachusetts and America at large what the illustrious magazine failed to mention in these series of profiles was the great black mark of Ted Kennedy's career in July of nineteen sixty nine in the middle of the night. Ted Kennedy drove his car off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts in crashed into a pond. The car quickly sank Kennedy managed to escape but his passenger twenty eight year old Mary Jo Kopechne he was pinned. She drowned in the dark. Ted Kennedy did not report the incident for ten hours what happened during that time has led to numerous theories about timelines intentions drunk driving and cover-ups orchestrated by powerful individuals all of its swirls around the question. What really really happened that night? What exactly did Ted Kennedy get away with? Welcome to conspiracy theories apar- our cast original every Wednesday we dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events and search for the truth. I'm Carter Roy and I'm Ali Brandenburg and neither of us are conspiracy theorists but we are open minded minded skeptical and curious. Don't get US wrong. Sometimes the official version is the truth but sometimes it's not this is our second and final episode on the Chappaquiddick incident of nineteen sixty nine when rising star Senator Ted Kennedy crashed his car into a pond on Chappaquiddick island the incident resulted in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne any and to this day there are questions regarding how she died why she was in a car and what led Ted Kennedy to wait ten hours before notifying the authorities that he had left a woman trapped in the submerged vehicle. This episode is part of Park has summer of sixty nine event till I twenty second through August ninth with all your favorite podcast shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of a landmark summer in American history. The summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit a boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals will be digging into the fallout of M._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Colt and Mohammed Ali's is banned from the boxing ring. You can find these specials and more all on our new park has presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at podcast. Were grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Love let us know how we're dealing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network several view of asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening it really does help. This is our second and final episode on the Chappaquiddick incident of nineteen sixty nine when rising star Senator Senator Ted Kennedy crashed his car into a pond on Chappaquiddick island the incident resulted in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne e and to this day there are questions regarding how she died why she was in in the car and what led Ted Kennedy to wait ten hours before notifying the authorities that he had left a woman trapped in a submerged vehicle. The chappaquiddick incident is among the most famous political scandals in American history three and is seen as the key reason that Ted Kennedy never had the chance to follow in his brother's footsteps for real shot at a presidential run but the legacy of the entire affair is inherently problematic in no small apart because we tend to refer to it as a political scandal and not a case of manslaughter over the past ten years ever since Ted Kennedy passed away it has come to be accepted that the real story story of Chappaquiddick may never be known after all the two people who were in the car that night are both dead and gone and this episode. We're going to examine the unanswered questions that still swirl today over the chappaquiddick incident our first conspiracy theory is the Ted Kennedy's account of when he left the Party and when he crashed is false this is best evidenced by the so called missing our between when and Ted Kennedy left the Party and when he was supposedly spotted by a sheriff's deputy over an hour later our second conspiracy theory is that Ted Kennedy was intoxicated or otherwise impaired that night and that this was the reason for both the crash and his actions immediately following it finally Ted Kennedy waited ten hours before he reported the crash. It's been suggested though obviously never proven that Mary Jo lived for much longer than initially suspected and she may have been rescued. If only Ted had gone for help in our last episode we discussed the decades long series of events that ultimately led to Ted Kennedy Eddie and Mary Jo Kopechne attending that party on Chappaquiddick island on the evening of July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine ted was the youngest son of Joseph Kennedy Senior the New England millionaire and Patriarch. Of the Kennedy Family Joe Senior groomed his sons to succeed in politics but between nineteen forty four and nineteen sixty eight he saw his hopes dashed as each of his three eldest sons die tragically a young Joe Kennedy Junior died in nineteen forty four while on a combat mission in World War Two president John F. Kennedy was assassinated in nineteen sixty three and Robert Bobby Kennedy was gunned down in nineteen eighteen sixty eight all of a sudden there was only Ted Kennedy who had been expelled from Harvard for cheating and had a criminal record for reckless driving Ted work to make himself into the kind of man who could truly honor honor the Kennedy name by nineteen sixty nine it was widely assumed that he would make his first bid for the presidency against incumbent Richard Nixon in nineteen seventy two but then chappaquiddick happened July eighteenth nineteen sixty nine was supposed to be a day of Reunion in celebration. Ted organized a reunion of the six boiler room girls former staffers of Robert Kennedy's presidential campaign. Mary Jo was among these women. The Day saw the attendees partake in a boat race and a barbecue before retiring to a rented cottage on Chappaquiddick island to continue the party our first conspiracy Chrissy theory concerns a time discrepancy in the official account of what happened on the night of the eighteenth. Could it be possible that there really was a missing our intense account the theory of the missing our comes primarily merrily from Deputy Sheriff Christopher look who is on the roads on Chappaquiddick after midnight on the night of the incident recall according to Ted Kennedy's testimony. He left the party at around eleven fifteen pm. He encountered Mary Joe on his way out. She told him she was not feeling well and asked him to give her a ride back to her hotel. Chappaquiddick is not a large patch of land. It would have been only about two miles from the cottage to the ferry sorry that would've taken tense car to the mainland and it was only one mile from the cottage to the bridge where Ted ultimately crashed his car given the Ted believed he was driving at a speed of around twenty miles per hour. It should should've been mere minutes between when he drove off from the Party and when he crashed the deputy sheriff looks account paints a different picture that night look had been working at a dance in the yacht hot club at Martha's vineyard he was there until after midnight and then made his way across the narrow channel to return to his home on Chappaquiddick island according to look he was approaching chappaquiddick roads one main intersection intersection the same intersection where Ted Kennedy would later claim to have made a wrong turn when he spotted a dark four door sedan pulled over at the side of the road looks headlights made it clear that a man was driving and a woman and was sitting in the passenger seat look assuming that the driver and passenger may be lost got out of his vehicle and approached it as he got close the car lurched into gear in barreled on down dyke road toward dike bridge. This was at twelve forty in the morning nearly an hour and a half after Kennedy had left the Party with Mary. Jo Look didn't commit the cars full license plate to memory but he did remember that it contained in l. into sevens. After the bizarre encounter looked continued down Chappaquiddick road and encountered some of the party guests outside the cabin he asked if any of them knew about about a black sedan. None of them could confirm whether it belonged to Kennedy even though most of the people at that party likely knew the Kennedy had arrived in a black four door oldsmobile but there are two facts that connect neck the car that look had seen with Ted Kennedy's car won Ted Kennedy's license plate number was L. Seven eight Dash Two oh seven it contained in l. and two sevens just like look described ascribed more damning is the fact that look was one of the first responders on the scene when the car was discovered and pulled from the water on the morning of July nineteenth at the scene he noted that he had seen that same car the night before if look really saw Kennedy's car that would mean a full ninety minutes passed between when Kennedy left the Party was Mary Jo and when he crashed his car off dike bridge this naturally leads to the question of what happened during that missing time and why would kennedy lie about it. was there more to the story of what happened that night before the crash. Could it be possible that Ted's intentions for Mary. Jo were less a an honorable or maybe even that she was dead before the car sank into the river. It's noteworthy that Kennedy claimed have been back in his hotel by two twenty five in the morning given the distance between the crash site the cottage and Kennedy's own statement about how he recruited Paul Markham in Joe Gorgan to try and Rescue Mary Jo from the car it would have been possible for him to be back in the hotel at that time if he crashed crashed the car at eleven fifteen but the time line seems much less likely if he actually crashed the car closer to one in the morning this particular theory deal simply with whether Ted Kennedy crashed when he says he did unfortunately there's not much to go off of besides two conflicting accounts from fifty years ago although don't forget the Ted did speak to the innkeeper at his hotel and that was believed to have happened between two and three in the morning morning honestly what seems most likely is that both Ted Kennedy and look are telling what they believed to be the truth if look got his time wrong then it's entirely possible that he did see Tad in Mary Jo in the car but <music> at an earlier time than twelve forty A._M.. But this still doesn't account for why Ted didn't mention pulling over on the side of the road I give it a nine out of ten that the official stories timeline is falls at least to some degree what am not sure about is whether that's intentional or just a byproduct of Ted failing to recall exact details about a night where he crashed his car nearly drowned and probably when to some degree of shock no regardless regardless of intent looks story does raise some questions why was Kennedy pulled over in the first place and if he was telling the truth why did his version of the story not explain why he was pulled over that night. Could it be that he. Didn't remember pulling over in the first place or perhaps Ted needed to withhold the real reason that he was pulled over. Could it be that he realized he needed to sober out next. We'll look look at the various conspiracies about Ted and Mary Jo's states of mind in those fateful final minutes before the crash hi there if you enjoy this episode on Ted Kennedy and the Chappaquiddick incident accident search conspiracy theories on spotify and give us a follow to find more episodes now back to the story time is among the most important factors in the mysteries of what happened on Chappaquiddick island on the evening of July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine because of the fact that Ted Kennedy waited ten hours before alerting authorities there was plenty of time for the important details of the case needs to be lost or Una more sinister note. There was plenty of time for Kennedy to craft his story. Our second conspiracy theory is that Ted Kennedy was either intoxicated or otherwise impaired impaired when he crashed the car even if he wasn't this theory puts forth that something was off with his State of mind that night and whatever it was directly led to the crash and Mary Jo's death when the story of the accident I broke there. Were two main questions that arose. What was Mary Jo Kopechne e doing in Ted Kennedy's car and was Ted Kennedy drunk? Ted Kennedy didn't drive at least he didn't often drive. You've given his substantial personal fortune in high status as United States. Senator Ted had a chauffeured cover. Most of his transportation needs in fact Ted's personal chauffeur. John Crimmins was at the cottage party on Chappaquiddick island on the night of the incident primos was a guest. That's considered to be true but he was also there in some capacity as Ted Kennedy's driver so when Ted Kennedy prepared to leave why didn't cremins leave with him when asked later Ted stated that he didn't want to pull crimmins away from the party to take him home. CRIMMINS was still enjoying his meal and the company. It's odd that crimmins would be preoccupied reoccupied with a meal since it was after eleven at night when Kennedy made to leave that maybe that really was the case given the full day of partying and relaxing lose one thing to note here though we're unsure what to read into it according sued the official account Ted Kennedy retrieved his car keys from crimmins after Mary Jo asked him for a ride home. This could mean that Ted was planning on having crimmins drive him home until Mary Jo asked for a ride. If he wasn't planning on driving he might have been drinking. Mary Jo by all accounts was a smart capable woman and it would have been very out of character for her to be drinking heavily at an event like this but she hadn't driven herself to the party and thus wouldn't have needed to worry about keeping an eye on her drinking. There are some uncorroborated reports that she had drunk at least some amount of alcohol at the party. She may not have been impaired but she also. Oh may not have noticed if Ted was not in a condition to drive now crimmins was both Kennedy's driver and occasional aid he knew the man well and it's not a stretch to assume that he would have noticed if Ted was too drunk to drive Dr himself the fact that he handed over the keys to the car would seem to indicate that as far as the partygoers were concerned. Ted was only fine the big discrepancy that may lead one to ask if Ted was drunk or not ask to do with the geography of Chappaquiddick Island itself Chappaquidick has one main road one that Ted Mary Jo had both ridden along multiple times throughout that day Chappaquiddick road tracks along about two miles miles from the ferry point before making a right turn into the more residential area that turn occurs at the intersection with Dyke road again. This was really the only major road on the island and even at night eight Kennedy would have known that to get the ferry from the cottage he would have had to just follow Chappaquiddick road. Keep left at the fork and then take it all the way to the ferry. So how did he instead manage to turn left onto the dyke road and moreover. Why did he stay on Dyke Road? After the turn Dyke road was unpaved in it should have been evident immediately to Ted that he'd made a wrong turn of course if he'd been drunk that might explain how he'd be able to get so turned around but it's also possible that Ted had not done much driving over the island crimmins was with him and it's possible that Ted had been preoccupied with some matter or another as crimmins. He's handled the driving and thus head wasn't as familiar with the roads as he should have been but again if that was the case why would crimmins let Ted drive on the Unfamiliar Island Roads at night. Ted was asked this very hey question when he was interrogated by police after he confessed a fleeing the scene of the accident according to him he'd actually never been on Chappaquiddick island prior to that day and so he didn't know the roads at all he visited Martha's Vineyard plenty of times in his life but never chappaquiddick the question of how Ted Kennedy came to make that wrong turn and why he continued to drive at a speed of twenty miles per hour down and unpaved paved road becomes more complicated when you consider the testimony of Deputy Sheriff Look Remember look claims that he spotted the black sedan that was likely Kennedy's pulled over near the intersection of Chappaquiddick Road and Dyke Road. He exited his vehicle and approached but the sedan shot away before he could get a good look at the driver. It's been suggested though obviously not proven Ted Kennedy saw look approaching the car either because he knew he was drunk or because he knew the optics of being caught alone in a car with a woman who wasn't his wife would be potentially damaging to his career. Kennedy realized he couldn't let look identify him so he put the car in gear and pulled away not realizing that he had taken a wrong turn down dyke road toward dike bridge. It was so focused on not being seen that he didn't track how fast he was driving or the directs snooze heading until it was too late and he drove off the bridge of course this theory hit something of a snag when we consider what happened after the crash if Ted Kennedy was so drunk that he managed to crash his car. Are into the pond now on earth was cogent enough actually get himself out of the car. Maybe he got lucky. The question of how Ted Kennedy managed to free himself from the submerged vehicle while Mary Jo remains stock doc will likely never be answered additionally. We'll never know the real reason why Kennedy didn't stop at any houses on his track back to the party to get help the walk from the crash site back to the cottage was roughly one mile well Ted Kennedy passed at least one house that had its porch light on and he also passed the firehouse on his way back. It's been stated though not totally confirmed that he passed up to four houses that had their porch lights on during his walk back to the cottage. One of the most damning actions Kennedy took in this story is not running up to any of these homes and asking to use the telephone to call for help Kennedy would later say he was exhausted and in shock from the near death experience of the crash his mind wasn't in the right place and thus he didn't grasp that he should have rushed to the nearest house and immediately sought help but if Kennedy was drunk it would also explain why he didn't talk talk to anyone on his way back to the cottage until he rendezvous with garden and Markham Kennedy didn't inform the police of the accident until ten hours after occurred because of the time lapse there was no way for anyone to administer a sobriety test all they had to go off of was Ted Kennedy's word an so barring a confession from Kennedy admitting that he'd been impaired there was no way nor will there ever be a way to determine if he was drunk when he got behind the wheel of his oldsmobile in his statement to the public on July Twenty Fifth Nineteen sixty-nine Ted reemphasize that he was not intoxicated he made sure to note that his doctors had retroactively diagnosed him with a concussion and was shock but he didn't want to use these conditions to justify his actions how noble of him and that was it. Ted Kennedy stuck to official story for the rest of his life and no one who is at the party ever came forward to make an on the record statement that they witnessed Ted drinking that night and so all we can really do is guest the validity of this theory. I'll give this one six out of ten. It's impossible to prove in. It's completely plausible. The Ted Kennedy really was just that unfamiliar with the roads on Chappaquiddick island but consider the numerous events that raise questions Ted likely thought he wouldn't have to drive in self that night since his driver was present at the party he was more than likely spotted by deputy sheriff look but drove off before he could be identified. He somehow failed to grasp that he was on the wrong road despite the lack of pavement and he wasn't able to stop the car fast enough even after dike bridge became visible in his headlights. He didn't alert anyone that might be able to help rescue Mary Jo and he only confessed S.. Two fleeing the scene after it would be impossible to determine his level of sobriety. That's a lot of damning facts all of which can be explained by intoxication. Ted Kennedy claimed he wasn't in his right mind after the crash crash he may have actually been telling the truth but lied about the reason. There's one more major question about chappaquiddick that really shows the level to which Ted Kennedy's actions were unforgivable at question Chen is how long it Mary Jo Kopechne we live after the crash. We'll discuss that and the likelihood of a cover up after this now now the conclusion to the story. We've discussed the inconsistencies in the official account of what happened in the late hours of the evening on Chappaquiddick Island and we've discussed the likelihood that Ted was drinking on the night of the the accident however all of these unanswered questions still don't address one of the key questions in this incident. How much was Ted Kennedy to blame for what happened? Let's take a second and assume that the official story is as Ted told it he got turned around on the road crashed. The car thought he was doing everything he could save Mary Jo but was so shocked by the crash that he wasn't thinking straight his inaction. Listen all most becomes palatable. If you accept that all these things are true assuming that he was correct in thinking Mary Jo Really did perish just minutes after the car hit the water our last theory theory examines the actual death of Mary Jo Kopechne e the confirmed cause of death and the question of how long she may have survived in the car after Ted abandoned her recall. The generally known facts of the crash Ted Kennedy was driving. Mary Jo was in the passenger seat. He was tearing down the unpaved Unlit Dyke Road at around twenty miles an hour when he spotted the end of the road marked by Dike Bridge in the pond beyond Ted couldn't hit the brakes rakes fast enough and the car crashed over the edge of the drop off and hit the water it turned over as it submerged landing on its roof at the foot of the pond ten feet below the surface Ted was able to get free from the car car and swim to the surface he claimed to have swum back down to the car a number of times to try and free Mary Jo but he was disoriented. From the shock of the crash and the water was pitch black so he couldn't see her well enough to help by the time maintained decided to leave the scene return to the cottage several minutes had passed. He assumed that too much time had passed since the car sunk below the surface and that there was no way that Mary Jo could still be alive. I've she must have drowned. This conclusion also makes up for part of Ted's justification for not telling more people about the crash until the next morning with the darkness of the night and the cold water he he worried that if he started to tell the other party guess it might prompt a wider rescue attempt and even more people could have gotten hurt the claim that he was protecting the other women at the party from Sharing Mary. Jo's fate doesn't really hold up at all. It doesn't especially given the fact that Ted passed a firehouse on his way back to the cottage and could have roused trained rescue professionals easily but the extent of Ted's negligence became more complicated after the car with Mary. Jo Kopechne bodies still inside was retrieved the next morning on the morning of July nineteenth while Ted was mulling over his options at his hotel a fisherman and his son spotted. The car on the bottom of the pond fire and rescue or summoned to examine and recover the car at approximately eight forty five in the morning John Farrar captain of the fire rescue unit arrived with scuba gear. He swam down to the car and found Mary Jo's body inside he removed her from the vehicle and carried her back to the shore. The subsequent investigation published the position. Mary Jo's body was in when she it was found. Donald Mills the medical examiner who performed the autopsy to Claire Drowning as the cause of death. This would be in line with the story that Ted Kennedy told but there were dissenters in John Farrar ars account he describes Mary Jo's body as he found her. She was in the back seat of the car with her hands clenched around the underside of the seats and her head pressed against the back footstool. Her position in the back accede is likely part of the evidence used when proposing the theory that Mary Jo was asleep in the back seat of the car but Farrar offers a different explanation. Ferrara believed that Mary Jo managed to climb in the back ax heat of the submerged overturned car her head placement indicated that she was positioning herself to keep her head in an air bubble within the car with that in mind. It's possible that the cause of death wasn't drowning rather. Mary Jo suffocated as she slowly used up all the oxygen in the car. This also raises the Morbid question of how long Mary Jo was down there struggling to breathe waiting for help thank never came and Ferraris own words. If Ted Kennedy had called for help immediately he could have gotten married joe out of the car. Within Twenty five minutes of the crash Farrar went so far as to estimate that Mary Jo could have lived for up to two hours after the crash and thus could have been saved if only Ted had done for help given how explosive that information is one wonders whether it came op during the subsequent investigation and trial well it did but only in the sense that Farrar was not allowed to testify his opinions about how Mary Jo could have lived for longer for our would state in interviews that he wanted to give his statement Ted Kennedy's prosecutor but he was never summoned Kennedy justified leaving the scene of the accident by claiming he was tired in shock and that enough time had passed that he was sure or Mary Joe had drowned. We know this for sure. However Long Mary Jo did manage to survive down there? She'd been dead for hours when her body was finally recovered then again. Is there a sliding scale L. of blame dependent on how long it took Mary Jo Kopechne to die is Ted Kennedy less culpable for what happened. If Mary Jo was already dead when he fled the scene the numbers not exact but there have been cases in which a drowned mound curson has been resuscitated up to forty or even fifty minutes after they stopped breathing the window for recovery can be even longer if hypothermia is in play the water around Chappaquiddick island would have likely been in in a low to high sixties on that night though it could have been potentially lower since the son had been set for several hours though it's not freezing temperatures it is possible for hypothermia to set in if a body is submerged in water of that temperature sure for a prolonged amount of time. All of this is to say that if Ted Kennedy had gone immediately for help. It's entirely plausible that Mary Jo could have been rescued from the car and resuscitated. It was the right medical care. She may have even been able to make a full recovery. We'll never know what was possible because due to Ted Kennedy's inaction. Mary Jo wasn't recovered until ten hours after does she went in the water. There's no rating for this one. Whether Mary Jo survived for hours or lasted only minutes doesn't really change Ted Kennedy's actions. Even if Mary Jo died quickly after the crash as Ted suspected suspected he should have done everything possible to save her he didn't and now we'll never know if Mary Jo could have been rescued. We're going to wrap up by going over some of the smaller alternative theories about about what really happened on the night of July eighteenth to start. We're going to examine one theory that further removes blame from Kennedy on account of the fact that he wasn't even driving the car when it crashed according according to this line of thinking after Kennedy spotted look he pulled over on Dyke Road and not out of the car his plan was to walk back to the cottage and get a ride from someone else leaving Mary Jo Joe to drive tents car back to the hotel. Mary Jo was unfamiliar with the Bulky Unwieldy Oldsmobile like Ted. She didn't even have a sense of where she was on the road until it was too late and she had driven driven off the bridge and into the Water Ted was still walking back toward the cottage. When the crash happened he rushed to the scene and tried to save Mary? Jo couldn't and the rest of the events generally carried out as the official. L. Story says they did this. One of course raises the question of why Ted would claim he was driving the car if he really wasn't when the fact that he hadn't even been in the car help absolve him of guilt car was still his yes. Ted might have suspected that few people would believe that he would have let Mary Jo drive his car alone. Claiming to have been driving would've actually raised fewer questions than telling the truth that he hadn't been in the car at all uh-huh one feels a little flimsy what seems more likely as that the more outlandish theories like this one came about as a result of the gap in understanding because we simply don't know every detail of what happened in the minutes leading up up to the accident. It is possible to put out a wide range of alternatives series of events this next one however might actually have some way to it. According to one theory Mary Jo Kopechne he actually tried to leave the party much earlier than eleven fifteen she was tired and may have even been suffering from a headache. She knew she wasn't in a state to drive and she didn't want to bother any ever fellow guests so she stepped outside the cottage and crawled <unk> into the back of Ted's Oldsmobile to take a nap Ted Dro- of made a wrong turn and crashed the car all while being unaware that Mary Jo was asleep in his backseat now. This may seem to help absolve him further and explain. Explain why he waited to report the accident. There would have been much less of a rush to get the police involved if Ted didn't know there was someone trapped in the car but again we come back to the question of why did Ted Kennedy never clarify fi that while digitally both garden and Markham said the Ted had told them about Mary Jo on the night of the accident right after it happened all in all we think the theories that modify who was driving and what Ted Kennedy New Are Pretty Flimsy. The official story Ted was driving. Mary Jo was in the passenger seat and Ted knew that she was still in the car. When he failed to report? The accident still seems most likely the remaining question question though concerns one of the most damning mysteries of this entire incident hearing all of this you have to wonder how on Earth Kennedy managed to walk away from this event serve no jail time and continue on to a successful decades long career as a United States senator in interviews conducted in the years after the chappaquiddick incident John Farrar and others indicate that there was some kind of cover up our final tag conspiracy tackles the question of whether there was a cover up in the chappaquiddick incident. I WANNA say outright. I don't think there was at least not in the way that some do in the fact that Ted Kennedy was tried for the crime of leaving the scene of an accident and even sentenced to jail time albeit in a suspended sentence kind of remove this event from cover up territory. This feels more like old old money New England exerting influence to minimize the damage after all. No one at the party knew that Mary Joe had left in the hours after it happened since she left her purse behind Kennedy's driver John Crimmins Minns was at the party. It was a totally possible course of action for Ted to insist that crimmins jump in the water and then tell everyone that crimmins was the one driving the car during the crash Kennedy also could to put Markham or guardian up to admitting that they were the ones behind the wheel he allegedly did this but that story comes from disgruntled residents of Martha's Vineyard and unfortunately there's little truth to back it up. We don't think there was a sinister cover up chappaquiddick because the car was found and linked to Kennedy before he would have been able to organize one now that isn't to say that he wasn't considering it consider the fact that he made a point to speak with the innkeeper keeper of his hotel at two in the morning and fresh clothes effectively establishing something like an alibi but then again why go to the police if that was his plan even after the car was linked to him. Tom Kennedy could have claimed to have not been the driver used the conversation with the innkeeper as his support that he was in his hotel and have one of his men. Take the fall for the accident. Maybe he didn't because he knew through his lawyers has friends ends his power as a senator in the influence of the Kennedy name he would turn out just fine and he did though the chappaquiddick scandal did prevail over Kennedy's future efforts to run for president and likely is the key reason he never made it to the Oval Office. It's not like Kennedy's life was ruined in the aftermath of the incident. During his televised speech Kennedy called on the people of Massachusetts to help him work through the incident they did. I re electing him. Consistently over the next four decades people today are entitled to representation by men who inspire their their utmost confidence this reason I would understand full well why some might think it right for me to resign so I ask you tonight. People in Massachusetts think this through with knee facing the decision. I think your advice making it. I think you're praised the chappaquiddick. Incident is one of the most famous scandals in American political history. There are few instances. This is in the history of our country were sitting politician was embroiled in a case of manslaughter and managed to save some of his career in the fallout. We'll never know the full true story of what happened on that dark night in July by the two people who did are dead and in their wake all we can do is wonder overall. There's a clear theory that seems to be the absolute right one the missing our does seem to be real well. It's more than likely that Ted Kennedy's timeline of events regarding when he left the Party and when he crashed is not accurate and the deputy sheriff look did spot his car pulled over on the side of the road after midnight however are we can't steed whether this was deliberate deception on Kennedy's art or just a false recollection of events. If we accept that the missing our is real it also becomes easier to accept that Ted was drunk or at least somewhat somewhat impaired that night and that factored into the crash and his actions in the hours following but again it's impossible to save for sure and the case of Chappaquiddick the official story likely isn't the full truth ruth but with fifty years common gone since it happened. It's the only truth wherever going to get thanks again for tuning into our conspiracy theories summer of sixty nine special. If you enjoyed this episode checkout podcasts continued retrospective into the summer of sixty nine from July twenty second through August ninth the summer of Sixty Nine will feature twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer. We'll be back with a new episode episode of conspiracy theories next week. If you're interested in learning more about the summer of sixty nine be sure to check out our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you of asked how to help us if you enjoy the show the best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at mark s network until then remember the truth isn't isn't always the best story and the official story isn't always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and as part of the par cast network it is produced by.

Senator Senator Ted Kennedy Senator Ted Mary Jo Mary Jo Kopechne Ted Mary Jo Chappaquiddick Island Chappaquiddick Mary Jo Joe ted Party Ted Kennedy Eddie official Kennedy Joseph Kennedy Water Ted Jo Kopechne Kennedy Family Joe Kennedy Junior Ted reemphasize dike bridge
The One Place JFK Felt He Could Be Alone

Aerial America

01:23 min | 1 year ago

The One Place JFK Felt He Could Be Alone

"JFK preferred to be on the Cape his father. Joe Bought this home in Hyannis Port in nineteen twenty nine when John was just twelve. The nine Kennedy kids spent their summers here swimming in and sailing these waters and playing football on their expensive lawn years later. John and Bobby Kennedy bought homes nearby creating the Kennedy compound in one thousand nine hundred sixty one. JFK became president and soon faced the Cuban missile crisis the Cold War and civil rights violence. It's during those tumultuous years. He kept coming back to Hyannis port. He said it's beaches. Were the one place could be alone and think in two thousand twelve. After the death of Ted Kennedy. The main house was donated to his institute. The storied home will eventually be opened to the public.

Bobby Kennedy Hyannis Port Ted Kennedy Kennedy John JFK Cape Joe president football
hamartia

Merriam-Webster's Word of the Day

01:51 min | 2 years ago

hamartia

"It's Mary molesters word of the day for March twenty first. Today's word is how martier spelled H A M A RTIA, how Martina is a noun that means a flaw in character that brings about the downfall of the hero of a tragedy. It's a synonym of the term tragic flaw. Here's the word used in a sentence from the Tallahassee democrat by Christine Barnes characters. In Greek tragedies, usually had a MARTINI or fatal flaw hubris pride presumption and arrogance where some of the chief character traits that brought down peasants and emperors alike. The word ham artesia arose from the Greek verb had Marta nine meaning to miss the Mark or to her Aristotle introduced the term in the Poetics to describe the error of judgement, which ultimately brings about the tragic hero's downfall as you can imagine the word is most often found in literary criticism, however meteorites occasionally employ the word when discussing the unexplainable misfortune or missteps of celebrities regarded as immortal gods and goddesses before being felled by their own shortcomings. For example, a writer for the new Republic in an April twenty eighteen review of Chappaquiddick, a movie about Senator Ted Kennedy comments that Kennedy's ruthlessness and ambition which are treated as the families Amartya in Chappaquiddick are swept under the rug of his compassion. With your word of a day. I'm Peter Sokolow ski. Visit Marian Webster dot com today for definitions wordplay and trending word ups.

Chappaquiddick Senator Ted Kennedy Peter Sokolow Martina Marian Webster Christine Barnes Tallahassee Marta writer
Summer of 69: Chappaquiddick Pt. 1

Parcast Presents: Summer of '69

43:38 min | 1 year ago

Summer of 69: Chappaquiddick Pt. 1

"What's the most you've ever lost as the result of a mistake and item value and opportunity a relationship life is a series of decisions many of them binary each one offering potential paths that fate may take us down? Every action has an effect every choice a consequence and sometimes in the rarest of occasions a person is is presented with a life or death choice that will come to define them. That was the case for Senator Ted Kennedy in the summer of Nineteen sixty-nine on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts though the official account of what happened that night is somewhat muddled. The facts are as follows late at night after a party Kennedy set off down Chappaquiddick road in his oldsmobile with him was Mary Jo Kopechne acne a former campaign staffer for the recently-assassinated Robert Kennedy there was an accident. The car hit a barrier and flipped over into the water. Ted Got out and survived but Mary Mary Joe was left trapped in the car. Ted Kennedy did not inform the police about the accident until ten hours later when the car was recovered in Mary. Joe's body was found inside the initial reaction action from the divers was that she hadn't actually drowned she'd suffocated and if Ted Kennedy had called the police immediately she may still be alive today. Welcome to conspiracy theories apar- cast original every Wednesday we dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events in search for the truth. I'm Carter Roy and I'm only Brandenburg and neither of us are conspiracy theorists but we are open minded skeptical and curious. Don't get US wrong long. Sometimes the official version is the truth but sometimes it's not today. We're talking about the chappaquiddick incident when Massachusetts senator and one time aspiring president Ted Kennedy crashed his car into poke upon and fled the scene leaving his passenger Mary Jo Capac need to die in submerged vehicle Kennedy turned himself in and reported the accident to the police. The next day after the car was recovered with capacities. He's body inside the fallout from the scandal was the dominant force that prevented Kennedy from securing a nomination for president of the United States though fifty years have passed into the tragedy. There are still certain details details about what really happened that night that raise questions about a potential cover up was ted really driving the car. Why did he wait so long to report the accident? And what role did the various blueblood powerbrokers brokers have New England play in the saga that unfolded. This episode is part of par casts summer of Sixty Nine Event July twenty second through August ninth. All your favorite park has shows are teaming up to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary three of a landmark summer in American history summer of nineteen sixty nine from the Manson murders to the moon landing. We're diving deep into the summer. America hit up boiling point with twenty three special episodes across sixteen different podcast originals digging into the fallout M._l._k.'s assassination a wide reaching l._S._d.. Called M Mohammed Ali's banned from the boxing ring. You can find these specials and more all on our new podcast presents feed on spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts at par cast. Were grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at park cast and twitter at podcast network several you have asked how to help us if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star of you wherever you're listening it really does help. Scandal seems like a natural component of politics for as long as America has been a country the men and women who have sought the power and influence that comes with public office of open themselves up to public scrutiny the imaging and character emphasis that goes into making successful politician strives for an ideal perfect person but a perfect person doesn't exist and in the history of American politics is by and large defined by figures whose personal flaws boiled over to tarnish their pristine public images but the chappaquiddick incident stands apart even from the most appalling public scandals handles largely because it represented the final downfall of the Kennedy family to truly convey how impactful Chappaquiddick was on the Kennedy family in the country we need to I explore just how how powerful the Kennedys used to be. America is a Democratic Republic. It's built upon the ideas of individuals elected by the people to serve the people there has never been an American American king but for a large part of the first half of the twentieth century the Kennedys were probably the closest thing America had to a royal family. The Families Patriarch was Joseph Kennedy senior born in eighteen eighty eight juice of senior was a business magnate who made his fortune in the nineteen tans and nineteen twenties through the stock market and the investments in Hollywood based movie studios among other ventures aw there has been a long standing unconfirmed myth that Joseph Kennedy senior supplemented his already sizable fortune by smuggling liquor throughout the United States during the prohibition. Oh habituation period in the nineteen twenties. This rumor has been debunked a number of times. It's prevalence as part of justice. Kennedy's legacy is largely due to historians who seek define reasons why Joseph senior never ran for president of the United States and Joseph Senior also didn't do much to distance himself from the rumor especially after he secured the licenses to import liquor from England after prohibition was lifted in Nineteen thirty three by the end of the roaring twenties. Joseph Kennedy was rich powerful influential and ready to take the next step in securing his legacy by becoming involved in politics. His political career seemed to get off to the right start tart. He I became embroiled in politics in eighteen thirty two as a supporter for Franklin D Roosevelt's presidential campaign after Roosevelt one. He established the U._S.. Securities and Exchange Commission and appointed the Joseph Senior as its first chairman Joseph senior only served in the position for a year but his efforts to establish safeguards and regulations within the stock market made him a hero among investors Joseph senior continue continued to thrive within Roosevelt's administration. He had the support of America's growing population of Irish Catholics which at that point in American history were largely discriminated against by the Protestant majority. The Highest Office Joseph Elsa senior ever reached was ambassador to the United Kingdom a role he held from nineteen thirty eight to nineteen forty. Joseph Kennedy senior wasn't shy about his ambition to run for president in the nineteen forty election his position as ambassador would have put him in a prime spot to go for the nomination but his actions as ambassador would lead to his downfall. Joseph Joseph Senior made a number of political blunders while representing America to the United Kingdom. This was nineteen thirty eight during the build up to the outbreak of World War. Two in Europe and Joseph Senior wasn't as hard on Adolf Hitler Hitler as many felt he should be Joseph senior butted heads with Winston Churchill who famously spent the lead up to World War Two arguing that there was no negotiating with Hitler though he was the ambassador to the U._K.. Joseph senior in your spent a good deal of his time in London undercutting British interests by trying to establish a line of communication between the United States and Berlin after the war broke out in nineteen thirty nine Joseph senior took a staunch orange `isolation as position in argued against American aid to the United Kingdom. Even as it's towns were victims of nightly bombings by German planes and worst of all Joseph Kennedy was a not so private anti Semite as Nazi Germany furthered. It's horrific persecution of Europe's Jewish citizens Joseph Senior was quoted more than once saying something to the effect of quote. They brought it on themselves. Joseph Senior was not not popular in Britain and his war between America and Germany's seemed more and more like an inevitability his isolationist views came the define him as a defeatist non Patriot he wasn't outright fired from Roosevelt's votes administration the party still needed him to rally the Irish Catholic vote for the Democrats but he and the president had a falling out particularly after Roosevelt ran for and won his unprecedented third term Joseph Osa senior resigned as ambassador in nineteen forty. He tried to write his political image by offering to throw his considerable wealth and influence behind the American war efforts but his years of trying to appease Hitler and essentially essentially made him persona non grata among the allied leaders he had no choice but to resign from politics and give up any hope of becoming the first Irish Catholic president of the United States but Joseph Senior wasn't a man to. Abandoned his ambitions so easily. If he couldn't become president on his own he would make sure that his sons would there's a religious verse about how the sins of the father are visited on the sons but the same can be said the father's goals chose a senior had four sons Joseph Junior born nineteen fifteen john born nineteen seventeen Robert Born nineteen twenty five and finally Edward Known as Ted head born nineteen thirty two Joseph Junior. The oldest Kennedy Son was the one Joseph senior hoped would one day become president to that end Joe Senior greened Joseph Junior from a young age for life in politics and Joseph Junior took the role quite well he attended Harvard law school his father's Alma Mater but left in his final year to enlist with a navy and fight in World War Two his plan as he told hold his friends Mr Run for the House of Representatives in the nineteen forty-six election presumably after the war was over from there he would follow his own political star. All the way to the White House. Doc Plan never came to pass on August Twelfth Nineteen forty four Joseph Kennedy Junior was killed in action when his plane was shot down over England Joe Seniors perfect son his best is chance to put a Kennedy in the White House was gone and so the pressure fell to the second oldest Kennedy Boy John Up to that point John F. Kennedy head enjoyed relative freedom in life at least compared to his older brother John had spent most of his life in and out of hospitals in infirmaries for a number of chronic health issues including gastritis and back pain like Joseph Junior John had attended Harvard before enlisting to serve in the military for World War Two when he first joined the navy in nineteen forty one John Handsome ideas of what he wanted his life to be after the war prior to the war Kennedy had traveled to a number of countries including Germany and Britain and his college thesis about the Political Situation in Britain that would lead to the breakout of the war was actually published in nineteen forty John Out that this might be his calling as a political writer and reporter on everything changed when his brother died with Joe Juniors Death John was now the eldest Kennedy boy and after lifetime of being just to the side of his a father's focus John Kennedy was now Joseph Seniors mean project in Life Joe was going to put one of his sons in the White House and he did it. After World War Two Joseph Bankrolled Johns I campaign for representative of the Eleventh District of Massachusetts John One and served in the house for six years. He successfully ran for the Senate in Nineteen fifty-three in served as a Massachusetts senator for seven more years and in one thousand nine hundred sixty Joseph senior got his wish when John F. Kennedy was elected as the president of the United States he was the first Catholic to hold that position. This could have seem like something thing of a redemptive Ark for JOE senior after watching his own political career and losing the son whom he'd groomed for politics he was able to steer John's meteoric rise but the curse that some have rumored the plates the Kennedy Family would not be satisfied on November twenty second nineteen sixty three as John was touring the country in preparation for his reelection he was assassinated on the streets of Dallas John's legacy and by Extension Joseph Seniors Legacy was permanently tarnished by the tragedy all the John had done in all that he might have done as president was doomed to be overshadowed by the killing feeling but Joseph senior still had more sons with Joe Junior and John Deceased Robert Kennedy was now the oldest Kennedy Boy Robert had served as the attorney general under John's administration and many Kennedy Historians believe that Robert May have even been the choice for vice president in John's reelection campaign and for most of the late nineteen sixties. It seemed I'm like Robert had a straight path to the White House. After President Lyndon Johnson announced he would not seek reelection in nineteen sixty eight Robert was the natural choice to lead the Democratic ticket after the tragedy of John John Kennedy's death Robert Kennedy may have been the first Kennedy to become president and actually serve a full term but then in nineteen sixty eight just after he was declared the winner of the California Primary Robert Kennedy was shot. He died of his wounds. The next day in the span of twenty five years Joseph Kennedy senior had lost three sons to violence Ted. The youngest Kennedy Son who was is only thirty four was suddenly the heir apparent to the dynasty. All of Joseph Seniors hopes in ambitions rested on Ted Shoulders. The pressure was now on Ted to become the third Kennedy to run for president accident but his political career would be maligned by scandal long before he ever got the chance up next. We'll discuss the events of July Eighteenth Nineteen sixty-nine and the death of Mary Jo Kopechne E. Hi there if you enjoy this episode on Ted Kennedy and the Chappaquiddick incident search conspiracy theories on spotify and give us a follow to find more episodes. Let's now back to the story by the end of nineteen sixty eight three Joseph Kennedy senior sons had died Joe Junior John and now Robert Eh all been killed before they fulfil the extent of the ambition. Their father had Joseph Senior. Perhaps due to his own lodged intend to become president was adamant about putting the Kennedy Boys in the White House they we had succeeded with his second son. John John's political legacy was permanently interrupted when he was tragically assassinated in nineteen sixty three with Robert debt as well and just as he seemed to be on the cusp of kicking the office successful presidential campaign the weight of the Kennedy name nail fell to the youngest Kennedy son Ted Edward Teddy Kennedy or nineteen thirty two wasn't exactly exactly the black sheep of the Kennedy family but as the youngest of nine Children Teddy was afforded leeway to fail in a manner that his brothers were never allowed while Joe Senior had been laser focused on ensuring that joe junior are in to a lesser extent John Robert worked to succeed in every aspect of their lives so as to prepare them for life in the public spotlight he seemed to not have the same level of commitment to ensuring that Teddy Excelled Teddy we had middling grades throughout his childhood though his large-size made him a natural football player despite the lack of any real academic achievement he attended Harvard University for undergraduate just as his father and brothers had done sometimes a name is more important than a transcript teddy was in his freshman year in college while his brother John was serving his first term in the House of Representatives that combined with the families already notable profile across American news news and politics meant that there was a public spotlight on anyone with the Kennedy name as the youngest child teddy likely wasn't used to having much attention directed his way. This is why he probably thought he could get away with cheating cheating on an exam in his freshman year in nineteen fifty one teddy arranged for another student to take one of his exams he was caught and both students were expelled. That's not the kind of backstory WanNa see in and someone who wants to be president. Teddy expelled and with few options of other scores that would actually taken enrolled in the military he served for two years in the military police and Joseph senior used his own military connections actions to ensure that teddy wasn't deployed in the Korean War which was ongoing at that time teddy was discharged in nineteen fifty three at that time Harvard University allowed expelled students to apply for Readmission Shen after a few years teddy was readmitted again no doubt due to the workings of his father and his own family name Teddy graduated from Harvard in Nineteen Fifty six when he was twenty four but he was rejected by Harvard law school due to his poor grades and the prior expulsion the academic dishonesty on his record should have prevented him from getting into most law schools but he managed to follow in Roberts Footsteps Depths and attend the University of Virginia School of law as he had for his entire life teddy performed middling Lii in his academics. Though in law school he started to develop a reputation for his strong oratory skills while while he was in law school teddy also had his first real run in with the law when he was charged with reckless driving nothing came of the charge and it certainly didn't seem to hurt his political aspirations but then again we must always is considered teddy's powerful family and their ability to put him in physicians to succeed Teddy was named manager of John Kennedy's election campaign for the Senate in Nineteen fifty eight after graduating law school in Nineteen fifty nine nine. He went on to help manage John's campaign for president. After John won the nineteen sixty election. He wanted teddy to take vacant Senate seat even though that wouldn't be possible for two more years since Teddy was only twenty. Twenty eight in one thousand nine hundred sixty teddy claimed to have grappled for a time with whether or not he wanted to bank on his family name to begin his political career as a senator when most politicians served several terms and smaller offices before reaching the Senate Keti then twenty eight wasn't even old enough to take the job since the minimum age for U._S.. Senators is thirty but he ultimately decided he wanted the job at Joe is seniors urging John John Kennedy appointed an interim officer to the Senate seat until nineteen sixty two when teddy turned thirty and was able to take the position once he was thirty teddy ran for the seed in a special election and despite his inexperience criminal record and the public revelation of his expulsion from Harvard he won. No one could have known back in nineteen sixty two but senator for Massachusetts was actually the last job teddy hetty Kennedy would ever have it served in the role for nearly eight consecutive terms until his death in two thousand nine in nineteen sixty four less than a year after John Kennedy's assassination teddy had his own brush with death when he barely survived a plane crash his suffered severe injuries and even after months in the hospital chronic back pain would play in for the rest of his life. Teddy evolved his political views throughout the rest of the nineteen sixties living through his brother John's assassination and later Roberts murder in nineteen sixty eight roberts assassinations and the Democratic Party into chaos in the Democrats were already at at a disadvantage in that incumbent president Lyndon Baines Johnson was electing not to run Robert was the most popular option and with his death so close to the actual election. There was no one else for the Democrats to put forward who would stand Dan a chance against the Republican nominee Richard Nixon there was actually a movement among the Democrats to have Ted Kennedy Take Roberts place as a nominee Ted decline though both out of respect respect for his brothers memory and his own acknowledgement that he wasn't experienced enough to be president still the thought wasn't new to his mind. After Richard Nixon won the presidency in nineteen sixty eight Ted won the election election to become the majority whip in the Senate. It was a given among the establishment Democrats that Ted Kennedy would make a bid run against Nixon in the nineteen seventy two election but then the summer of nineteen in sixteen nine happened on July eighteenth nineteen sixty nine while most of the country was glued to their radios waiting for updates on the recently launched Apollo Eleven Moon Mission Ted Kennedy set up a party. The purpose of the gathering was to host a reunion of six women Rosemary Kio Nansen Mary Ellen Lions Susan Tanenbaum Esther Newburgh and twenty eight ear old Mary Jo Kopechne any these women had all worked on Robert Kennedy's presidential campaign and had come to be known as the boiler room girls due to the windowless room. They all worked out of on the campaign. This was a group of a young smart women whose time as an effective political team had been tragically cut short by Robert's murder they had reunited a number of times prior to the July eighteenth gathering the party was hosted on Chappaquiddick Wittig island a fairy accessible retreat east of Martha's Vineyard in addition to the boiler room girls six men attended including Ted Kennedy his cousin Joseph Gorgan and Paul Markham the United States the district attorney in Massachusetts as the party's started to wind down Ted prepared to leave his wife. Joan was pregnant at the time and bedridden due to her two previous miscarriages and Ted was ready to return into her. He started making the rounds to say his goodbyes at eleven fifteen on his way out. He passed Mary. Jo Mary. Joe Was staying at a hotel near Ted's and she asked if he could give her a ride back Ted Kennedy. It didn't normally drive himself as wealthy senator. He had a chauffeur for most of transport needs Ted's chauffeured. John Crimmins was actually at the party that night when Ted saw that John was still eating and enjoying himself Elf he asked for the keys to his car until John he drive himself home. The rest of the guests were too preoccupied with a party to notice Mary Jo leave with Kennedy when they realized she was gone. They assume she'd left on her own. Ted and Mary Jo climbed into Ted's Black Oldsmobile in started off down the narrow unlit paved road that would take them to the mainland for Mary Jo. It was the last time she'd sheets set foot dry land next we'll discuss the death of Mary Jo Kopechne any in the fallout of Ted Kennedy's actions after the fateful crash now back to the story on the evening of July Eighteenth Nineteen sixty-nine Ted Kennedy left the party on Chappaquiddick island in his black oldsmobile. He had a passenger Mary Jo Kopechne -I whom he was giving a ride home. Ted didn't normally drive himself yet a chauffeur John Crimmins but he chose to take the keys and drive his black oldsmobile himself that night according to Ted's later testimony. He left the party with Mary Jo Oh ed around eleven fifteen in the evening Chappaquiddick was a popular destination in part because it was secluded and as such a number of its roads were unpaved and unlit shortly after driving away from the party Ted made a wrong turn and started down dyke road which at that time was an unlit unpaved road that led to a dead end past dike bridge in Nineteen sixty-nine Dike Bridge did not have a guardrail Ted was driving too fast to stop the car once he caught sight of the narrow crossway he lost control of the Oldsmobile just before he hit the crossing in the car shot over the edge and hit the water the car saint quickly as it filled with water the momentum from the fall off the bridge caused it to turn over before it finally finally landed at the floor of Polka Pond Ted had hit his head in the crash he was panicked and struggling as the car filled with dark cold water. Mary Joe was screaming. She was stuck. She couldn't get out to manage to free himself through the car window and swim up to the surface as he gasping for air. He realized that Mary Joe had not followed him. She was still stuck in the car. Ted Swam Back Down to the car to try and free Mary Jo but it was dark and the only source of light was the distant moon the murky shine of the submerged cars headlights. He swam down to the car but couldn't get back into reach her. He went up for air again. Swam down again. He repeated this a number of times until the horrible truth finally dawned on him. He couldn't didn't free Mary Jo in so many minutes past that I now she had surely already drowned soaked and disoriented Ted swam back to shore and this is as as the story goes where his actions shift from the understandable to the unforgivable Ted sat on the riverbank for a few minutes likely recovering from the shock the cold and the exertion version of trying to reach Mary Jo in the car then he went home looking through the records of what was going on at Chappaquiddick that night Ted almost certainly walked past the dike house aptly named for it's location on Dyke Road on the night of July eighteenth. The dike houses front porch light was on someone was home but Ted Kennedy walked right past it. It didn't go to the house to try and use the telephone call for help. It was just over a mile back to the cottage where the party was still in full swing. Ted also passed a fire station where he could have rushed into ask for help. The cottage was actually across the street from the Fire Department. Meaning Ted would have walked right past the building on his way back to the party again. He didn't alert emergency personnel about what had happened. Once there he summoned his cousin Joe Bargain and his friend Paul Markham Ted told these two men what happened together the three of them drove back the crash site Markham in Gorgan both stripped out of their clothes before diving in to try and recover Mary Jo one might wonder why they they would take the time to remove their clothes given that a woman was trapped in a submerged vehicle and had been for at least half an hour of course neither of the man could speak as to why they did it but consider the fact that they'd have have a hard time explaining away wet clothes if anyone saw them later and you can start to connect the dots like Kennedy the men couldn't reach her. The water was too dark in the car was at such an angle that they couldn't ticket inside it. The men spoken hushed whispers as they walked to the ferry dock on Chappaquiddick island garden and Markham made it clear in no uncertain terms the tension call the police immediately ted agreed greed said he would and then jumped in the ocean to make the swim back to the mainland Ted reached his hotel after two in the morning close to two thirty A. M. After he had showered and changed into dry clothes Ted approach. Urged innkeeper in stated that he'd been awakened by some noise in doing so ted seemed to have created something of an alibi for himself. Garden and Markham met up with Ted the next morning at eight A._M.. They were both oath furious to find out he had not kept his promised. Tell the police about the accident. We can't know what was going on in Ted's head at that moment but his actions would seem to be those of a man who is hoping that at that car simply wouldn't be found at that same time as the tide was moving out a fisherman and his son spotted Kennedy's cars submerged in the water. The police were called in eight forty five. If the captain of the Edgar Town Fire Rescue John Farrar was summoned with his diving gear to swim down into the car he found CAPAC knees body in the passenger seat. They recovered her within ten minutes and ideally the the license plate to find that it was registered to Ted Kennedy close to ten A._M.. Ted received word the police had found the car and the body over ten hours after the accident. Ted Kennedy appeared appeared the Edgar Town police station and reported the incident in his official statement Kennedy confess to crashing the car and stated that he was both exhausted from his attempts at trying to save Mary Jo Oh and in a state of general shock from the accident itself. This was why he failed to report the accident immediately. Ted claimed that he came to his senses after getting a few hours of sleep and that he contacted police immediately immediately afterwards Kennedy appeared in court a week later on July twenty fifth on charges of leaving the scene of an accident in the week between the incident in the court appearance the details of what had really happened only only became muddier and Muddier with questions. How did Ted accidentally turn onto dyke road? The turnoff required a driver to make a deliberate right turn from curving paved Road Tad and Mary Joe had likely driven that route a number of times just on that day. Why did Mary Jo Leave her person keys behind the party? If Ted was supposedly taking her to her hotel Ted later claimed that he suffered a concussion as a result of the crash and that contributed to his inability to think straight or make rational decisions but then how was he able to swim back to the mainland to reach his hotel concussion can cause disorientation I and fatigue neither of which you WANNA be dealing with if you're planning on making a long nights swim plus Ted still suffered from the chronic back pain brought on by the plane crash he'd been in five years before. Could you really have made that swim if he wasn't wasn't of sound mind and finally who could account for the testimony of Deputy Sheriff Christopher Look Look had been working on the night of July eighteenth and in the fall out of the accident he testified to seeing a car or an Chappaquiddick road that matched the description of Kennedy's Oldsmobile the characters look recalled from the license plate also matched with Kennedy's. The smoking gun here is the time line look reported seeing this car around twelve forty a. m. yet Kennedy testified that he left the party with Mary. Jo at eleven fifteen and people at the party corroborated this if everyone involved was telling the truth that would mean Tad and Mary Jo were in the car for over an hour before crashing just a mile away from the party so what happened during that our the incident and Ted Kennedy's involvement was was a national news story though it received less attention than likely should have remember at that time the entire country was fixated on the impending moon landing which would occur on July twentieth nineteen sixty nine at the July twenty fifth hearing Kennedy pleaded guilty and was sentenced to a two months suspended jail sentence in other words. He got a slap on the wrist that same night Ted went on TV and delivered a prepared statement in it. He clarified that he had not behaved immorally with Mary Gel meaning. He was not engaging in an affair with her. He wasn't under the influence he had no excuse for his failure. The report the accident other than his shock and confusion he concluded his statement by asking his constituents in Massachusetts to help him process what had happened. The clarified that the decision to resign from the Senate would be his to make and he didn't make it as we said Ted Kennedy occupied his Senate seat until the end of his life in two thousand nine but there was significant fallout due to the highly highly publicized scandal to blunt the Chappaquiddick incident of nineteen sixty nine is likely the sole reason at Ted Kennedy never became president despite the P._R.. Black Mark Against Him Ted was reelected by an overwhelming majority to his Senate seat in nineteen seventy. It was widely assumed he was going to confirm the rumors and run for president in nineteen seventy two but he didn't Ted Kennedy was at least on the national stage CH- inextricably linked to the chappaquiddick scandal in nineteen seventy four he once again made the decision not to run in the nineteen seventy six election in part because he knew the scandal would dampen his chances Ted finally made his move in nineteen seventy nine when he challenged incumbent president Jimmy Carter for the Democratic nomination he lost the primary badly and Carter's constant reference to the chappaquiddick incident but in the media and in the publicized debates largely contributed to that loss in two thousand eighteen a film about the incident appropriately titled Chappaquiddick was released. There's a scene in the film that takes is plays. Just after Ted Kennedy returned to the party from the leg. The line he says is by the admission of the film's writers a fiction a speculation on their part but they justified it by claiming they looked into what was is known about the man himself and what was likely going through his head at that time and they wrote the line based on that foundation of research in the film when Ted Kennedy First Summons Joe Garden in Paul Markham he tells them bluntly bluntly. I'm never going to be president. He may not have said it in real life but the sentiment is true all the same Ted Kennedy passed away in two thousand nine with his death. The only two people who really knew do what happened on the night of July Eighteenth nineteen sixty nine. We're now gone and could no longer answer any lingering questions but they're still are lingering. Questions are first conspiracy deals deals with the so-called missing our between win Kennedy left the Party with Mary Jo and when he was suspected to have been seen by sheriff look over an hour later. There's a number of speculative possibilities including the theory that Ted was drunk in Mary. Jo forced him to pullover and sober up or that Ted wasn't even driving the car after spotting Sheriff Look Ted left Mary Jo to drive herself home. Mary Jo unacquainted with the road got lost crashed into the pont our second conspiracy deals with the status of Mary Jo herself who she even alive when the car crashed did she drown as as commonly suspected or did she survived for hours and an underwater air bubble doomed only because Ted waited so long to report the accident. Our third conspiracy asked the question. was there a cover up or an attempt of one Ted Kennedy called a number of his father's powerful friends in the hours before he spoke to the police what was said in those calls. What was he hoping to accomplish was he trying to hide something even more despicable and leaving a woman behind to die? There's a conventional wisdom that scandals are just part of the political game when you're embroiled in one. You just need week for the press to move on to the next big story. A chappaquiddick has endured for fifty years since the incident the unanswered questions and more seriously the fact that a man who clearly felt the Oval Office was birthright could be capable of such a callous act of negligence Joe Kennedy Senior Live just long enough to witness the shameful period that ended his dreams of having a son finish a term as president he died shortly after the incident in November of Nineteen sixty-nine. When we think of John Kennedy we think of assassination when we think of Robert Kennedy we think of assassination but when we think think of Ted Kennedy we think of Chappaquiddick thanks again for tuning into our conspiracy theories summer of sixty nine special next week? We'll be back with partout if you enjoyed this episode checkout podcast continued retrospective into these summer of sixty-nine from July twenty second through August ninth in the summer of sixty nine will feature twenty-three special episodes across sixteen different podcasts covering everything from Vietnam War protests to the Zodiac killer be sure to check it out on our new podcast presents feed on spotify defy or anywhere you listen to podcasts several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter add podcast network until then remember the truth isn't always the best story and the officials story isn't always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created by Max. Cutler is a production of Cutler.

Senator Ted Kennedy Robert Kennedy Paul Markham Ted Ted Joseph Kennedy Mary Mary Joe president Joseph Joseph Senior Mary Jo Ted Edward Teddy Kennedy Kennedy John Kennedy John John Kennedy Kennedy Family Massachusetts United States Chappaquiddick Joe Junior John Chappaquiddick Island Mary Jo Kopechne
'Kennedy Vs. Carter & The Fight That Broke The Democratic Party'

Fresh Air

49:50 min | 2 years ago

'Kennedy Vs. Carter & The Fight That Broke The Democratic Party'

"Support for NPR and the following message come from WalMart to help tackle the opioid crisis. Walmart is limiting certain non chronic prescriptions to a seven day supply and requiring e prescriptions for controlled substances by twenty twenty more at WalMart dot com slash prevention. The WHYY in Philadelphia this is fresh air. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry gross on today's show the political brawl that grew out of America's crisis of confidence in the nineteen seventies. Inflation and unemployment were high American hostages were held in Iran. An energy shortage led to fights even murder in gaslines. Journalists Jon ward tells us about democratic Senator Ted Kennedy's practically unthinkable challenge of the incumbent president from his own party, Georgia peanut farmer. Jimmy Carter who seemed overwhelmed by the events of the day. Carter has the lowest approval rating of any president up until then right? His ratings were lower than Richard Nixon and Watergate. I am. Yeah. Can you how how is that possible? Wards new book is called Camelot's end. Kennedy versus Carter and the fight that broke the Democratic Party. Also, John powers reviews, the new H B O movie Brexit. Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer family foundation, supporting WHYY's, fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation as candidates begin to emerge maneuver for the twenty twenty election. We're going to revisit a presidential nomination battle that took place when the country was in the throes of changes that shook Americans confidence in their government and their faith in the future in the late nineteen seventies. Inflation and unemployment were high American hostages were being held in Iran, and a severe energy crisis led to lethal confrontations. Among motorists in gas lines and a full blown riot in levittown, Pennsylvania. So in one thousand nine hundred eighty Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy. The last of three charismatic brothers who would seek the presidency took on incumbent president Jimmy Carter, the former peanut farmer and Georgia governor who may have seemed mild-mannered and ineffectual, but who could be tough as nails in a political. Fight the result, our guest John Ward says was a civil war within the Democratic Party that would have far reaching consequences. Jon ward has covered American politics for more than twenty years. He's currently senior political correspondent for Yahoo news, and he hosts a podcast called the long game. His new book is Camelot's end. Kennedy versus Carter and the fight that broke the Democratic Party will Jon ward, welcome to fresh air. You know, we think of the sixties as a turbulent time in the United States. We have less of an image of the seventies. And you write that when you were researching this material, the two thousand sixteen election, the Donald Trump election that this period didn't seem as foreign to you. Why? You know, I started writing this book, I got the idea for it around twenty thirteen so that was quite some time ago, and our politics was pretty tame compared to now. But when I went back and started talking to people about it. I spoke with a woman named Anita Dunn. She had worked for President Obama in the White House, and she actually had turned out had worked for the Carter White House. And when I spoke to her about the seventies sheen painted such a grand picture of the time in a way that kind of like, you said, I wasn't aware of she talked about rising employment inflation St., you know, something called stagflation. She talked about insecurity on the world stage worries that Japan was outpacing us that our economy was falling behind and just a general sense of Malays to use a word that became a big part of the problem for president Carter. I wasn't aware of that. But it was something that was so stark in contrast to that time period at which I was talking to her and then fast forward a couple of years. Our politics becomes incredibly incredibly dark and tumultuous with the rise of Donald Trump. And so when all of that happened it wasn't as if it was a surprise to me, but it did. It kind of it kind of surprised me that we were reentering such dark period because some one of the things that attracted me to the story was just how couldn't believe so much of what had happened. And and then once the politics of Trump, the Trump Eric kind of came along everything that happened during this story began to actually look a little more tame in comparison. This is the story of these two prominent Democrats Jimmy Carter who was president Ted Kennedy from the Senate, and I learned in your book that this got really personal these men really didn't like each other. Let's talk a little bit about each of them. I Jimmy Carter elected president in one thousand nine hundred seventy six two years after you know, Nixon resigned after Watergate people remember him as the peanut farmer from Georgia. He was governor. They're kind of thought of is kind and decent man round out the picture for us. What what is less? Well known about Carter. What I love about. This story is the the things we don't know about both of these men. I think both of them are really overly caricatured and dismissed oftentimes many times that's for partisan reasons. But not always. But what people don't know about Jimmy Carter. Most of the time is that he grew up and came from nothing. He grew up in a house with no running water until he was about twelve years old. This was in southwest Georgia. He was born a couple years before the great depression, and his father was a farmer who was modestly successful built over time some land this is at the time of sharecroppers that was part of their success. And so he came for nothing his father gave him a modest amount of sort of foundation to build on. But then really Carter got into politics, and we can get to the backstory, you know, the whole story of how he got into politics in the first place and the naval career is interesting, but he got into politics with really no connections. He ran for the state Senate in nineteen sixty and really had to overcome small town old time machine politics and big time corruption to even get into the state Senate really drawing on nothing more than his small, you know, chain of local relationships, and then from there he did a pretty decent job in the state Senate. And then again ran for governor with very little in terms of influence or connections. And really, the the hallmark here is just steely determination relentless will. And then as he got into politics people began to see the he could be pretty cut throat, and my probably my favorite anecdote from the whole book is that hunter S Thompson, the famous writer called Jimmy Carter one of the three meanest men that he had ever met along with Mohammed Ali and the founder of Hells Angels. Right. That struck me too. Because we always think of Carter is just such a kind and decent. Fellow Carter is governor of Georgia then wages this remarkable campaign in nineteen seventy six for president goes to Iowa out recognizes everyone and gets the democratic nomination and is elected president. How did he do in his first couple years really faced some challenges? Yeah. It was up and down. I mean, the first year the biggest problem he had was he was trying to do too much. She had an energy proposal, but what began to kind of slow him down with some scandal with his budget chief. And then from there things just sorta started to go sideways, but at the same time he has in nineteen seventy eight he has the Camp David accords, which really kind of rescues his presidency where he brings the leader of Israel and the and the leader of Egypt together Sadat and begging together to sign a peace accord. And so he that really resurrects is his time in office. That's heading into nineteen seventy nine seven. Eighty nine is where things really go off the rails specially during that summer with the energy crisis. And then later on that year, the hostage crisis. Right. Let's talk about Ted Kennedy. You know of perhaps the most famous American political family that family of the twentieth century his brothers. John F Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy both assassinated one is president one as a presidential candidate. Who was Ted Kennedy in the mid seventies? That's a great question in the mid seventies. Who's really at this sort of middle point of his life and career, and he really had failed to do a whole lot at that point. I mean when he got nominated to the Senate by his brother even advisors to his brother, totally dismissed him. And were angered by this nomination. They called it an insult to the Senate. This was his brother Jack, the president, right? Correct. Yes. He he was going to inherit his brother's seat in effect. Yes. They appointed a placeholder for two years. Years to allow teddy to basically grow old enough to be eligible for the job. And so he was you know, after Bobby was killed in sixty eight he was immediately thrust into contention for the presidency at the sixty eight convention, but he turned it down he considered it. But he turned it down and then a year later Chappaquiddick happens, and so that's nineteen sixty nine. And so that really puts the presidency out of consideration in seventy two. And then again in seventy six Carter thought he was going to Carter thought Kennedy was going to run in seventy six and was planning to run against him. But but Kennedy ended up not doing that. And so by this time in the mid seventies. Kennedy is is sort of you know, he's getting the feel of what it means to be a good Senator. But he's also Chappaquiddick is fairly recent in the past, and that's just a huge problem for him, politically, and and a big part of his identity at that point. Well, let's talk about that. I mean, I remember. Quick vividly. Some may not give us the outlines of what happened and what questions lingered about it. Yes. So it's a year after bobby's death, it's on the Cape in the summer of nineteen sixty nine and there was a movie that just came out about it. That was well done that. If listeners wanna go watch that to get up close and personal look at it. But basically teddy and a couple other older guys about his age get together with a believe it was four young campaign workers who were all female from bobby's campaign, they were called the boiler room girls, and they get together for a party on the Cape, none of the wives or their. So that obviously raises some questions there's alcohol involved and teddy. According to everything we know Lemes around eleven o'clock with Mary Jo Kopechne e in his car and in the morning. He the car goes off a bridge dike bridge into a channel. And in the morning, Mary Jo Kopechne is in the car dead and teddy is out of the car alive. And. All that. We know is that teddy did not call police until, you know, mid morning around ten am or so after this accident occurred, you know, somewhere around midnight or one AM, and so he could very easily gone to jail. You should have probably gone to jail. No doubt should've lost his Senate seat. But you know, what he did by not going to police is kind of allowed his political and legal operation to to get into action to head off all of that to co op the local law enforcement, and so he ended up getting off with a slap on the wrist serve. No jail time and ended up getting reelected in in a couple of years later. Right. And he did plead guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and got a suspended sentence. But there were unanswered questions that lingered about the timing about the route. That was taken that. Right. You know was there an illicit relationship between? Lean Kennedy and Mary Jo Kopechne, e that lingered long after the the legal matter was resolved. Yeah. I mean, this is the incident that has spawned a thousand theories, and I don't say conspiracy theory is because we don't know actually what happened. So it's possible. There was a conspiracy. There were certainly some level of conspiracy on the Kennedy is part in terms of, you know, not giving a ton of information and sort of shielding Kennedy behind all these advisors. But yeah, we don't know what happened. There have been a lot of theories about his relationship with Mary Jo. And you know, this is again going back to my my conversation with Anita Dunn. You know, she talked about how her parents always just hate it. They were from democratic family, but they really hated to Kennedy because of this, and and certainly if you're a Republican this is an easy. You know, stick to hit Kennedy with any deserves it, you know, that's the thing. So. So we have the situation where Jimmy Carter known as a nice decent, man. But not the most effective politician is struggling against an energy crisis and all kinds of things inflation on employment late in his first term and people are thinking, maybe Ted Kennedy will run against him. There's a comes a moment where the energy crisis was boiling over. There were, you know, violent incidents in gaslines riots in a riot and Levitan Encarta was actually away at some meetings in Japan. This is an interesting course of events what happens. Yeah. He was on a a trip abroad and was actually planning to stop in Hawaii on the way back with his wife Rosalyn, they had I think four or five days maybe three or four days plan because they had been going at a breakneck pace, just traveling doing events here in Washington, but they had been traveling a lot abroad that time of the year. What happened was their advisors? Basically said you need to get back here now or else we could lose his presidency right now. But yeah, they're they're kind of planning to stay in Hawaii. And then they get called back to Washington, and he's planning to give this sort of regular speech, and there's a disagreement among his advisors some of them want him to give the speech others want him to scrap it and do something different. And you know, one of them his pollster says, you know. This is a spiritual crisis the American people need to hear something different. And so two so Carter goes with him. That's pet Cadel academic, right? The other thing is fascinating about the stories that he comes back. He's schedules. A an energy speech because it's clearly a big energy problem abruptly cancels it and then kind of disappears. He disappears. What what was he disappears? He goes up to Camp, David. He doesn't tell really anybody his advisors. Don't even find out until I think the next day. And so imagine if that were to happen today, the president just disappears, and we don't even actually know where he is that for days. Yeah. That's just unthinkable. And so that throws everybody for loop. What happens is he ends up spending ten days at Camp, David he holds a series of meetings, basically, a summit and gets input from all kinds of leaders in different sectors of the country, political and otherwise. And then he comes back after ten days intended to give a speech, and this is what becomes. Is known as the Malays speech. However, can I just interrupt there? I want to ask you you spoke to Jimmy Carter and this period when he comes back from Japan. Did did you talk to him or did others talk to you about what was going on his mind why he seems? So suddenly, I dunno frozen and decisive the best comment I've heard on this is from Bert Lance who was his budget chief who had the problems in seventy six, but also was a close friend and adviser from Georgia and Lance knows Carter. Well, he just basically said he thought he had panicked at that point. He was overwhelmed overwhelmed with exhaustion, and so that combination of panic and fatigue really led him to to make some some mistakes there. However, it's easy to second guess because the speech when he first gave it was incredibly well received and his his approval rating went up, and it wasn't actually the speech that caused him to lose support. It was actually the firing of the cabinet, and you know, forcing most of them to resign in mass that caused everybody to go, wait a minute. What are you doing here? And that was what caused the bottom to fall out, which has since then colored the way that we see the speech, which is really interesting. Yeah. Well, let-let's here just a little bit of that speech. This is you know, what's interesting is that it was not a policy address. And at a time when I guess some people expected, you know, a firm leader to to take the wheel and guide a clear way forward. He kind of said we have an existential problem as a people, and he talked about it. Let's listen. It is a crisis of confidence. It is a crisis at strikes at the very hot and soul and spirit of a national will. We can see this crisis in the growing doubt about the meaning of our own lives and in the loss of a unity of purpose for our nation. The arose about competence in the future. Is threatening to destroy the social and political fabric of America. And that's president Jimmy Carter speaking in nineteen seventy nine amidst an energy crisis. So this is interesting. You've got a leader rather than saying I see the way out we're going to go forward together. The problem is the state of mind that we all share. And yet you say initially it came off. Well, I don't think that we've had a president give speech quite like that address ever since then. In a couple of different ways. I don't think we've had a president be quite as blunt and honest about more existential matters such as the state of our, you know, the spiritual state of our nation. And I also don't think we've had a president really ask the country to sacrifice in a way that Carter did in that speech since then. And so I think it's that's a speech. That's it's ill served by dismissing it as the Malays speech. I think it deserves a lot more study in terms of its themes and the moment it was in. But yes, it was well received at the moment because you know, he had obviously. Surveyed a lot of people. He talked a lot of people. He was also pretty self critical in the speech, he criticized himself he took responsibility for his mistakes. The speech was also a bit of a mismatch because he did the front end of it was about the the spiritual crisis in the second half of it was sort of a hodgepodge of policy proposals. So not the greatest beach in that sense, but it was well received. And then the cabinet crisis was what caused everybody to lose confidence. And let's focus on that. So he does the speech she talks about you know, we as a nation need to rededicate ourselves to rethink our relationship with events. And then he fires every single cabinet member. Why? I haven't seen it reported or written about anywhere else. I was at the Carter Center at the Carter library, and I came across a memo from Hamilton Jordan his chief of staff. In Jordan, basically, recommended that he fire all these people to show strength journ had actually been against opposed to him going to Camp David in the first place. He wanted him to give the standard speech. But once he decided to do that journ decided, okay? We've got to do something dramatic in addition to the speech to show people that we mean business to show people that we are strong. And so. There are many many inputs into any decision. A president makes Jordan was a key confidante had a closer relationship with Carter. And it was really his call as far as I can tell from this memo that Carter fire these people fire the cabinet he'll out a couple of stay on. But fire most of them, which I don't think has ever been reported before about why he did it. Yeah. I don't think the memo has ever been a reported before. Yeah. So you have is the speech. That's impressive. And then kind of turning the government upside down makes him look like what someone who sort of scrambling panicking. Yep. Panicking. Exactly, it makes them look like he is sort of picking things off of a tree as fast as it can just to try to throw you know, to mixed metaphors to throw things at a wall and see what sticks and not really sure what course he wants to to go on John Ward's. New book is Camelot's end. Kennedy versus Carter and the fight that broke the. A Democratic Party. After a break. He'll talk about the primary battle in one thousand nine hundred eighty and the convention drama that left Carter victorious. But deeply wounded also John powers tells us about the new H B O movie, Brexit, I'm Dave Davies, and this is fresh air support for this podcast is brought to you by discover card. You check things all the time like your, Email or social media. But discover asks what about checking something as important as your credit score. Well, discover makes it quick and easy with their credit scorecard wishes free for everyone, even if you're not a customer, see your FICO credit score and other important credit information, and once, you know, your score, you should check to see if your current credit card is the best fit for you. Learn more at discover dot com slash credit scorecard. Limitations apply. We're talking with Yahoo. News, political correspondent, John Ward. He's covered Washington politics for twenty years, and he has a new book about the battle between president Jimmy Carter and Senator Ted. In nineteen eighty it's called Camelot's end. So in nineteen seventy nine Ted Kennedy who has this terrible personal scandal with you know, just ten years before suddenly has a huge opportunity open to him. Should he take? It would the poll say about how Democrats felt about replacing president Carter with Ted Kennedy as their candidate in nineteen eighty the poll showed that they wanna Kennedy, and I will say that the Cording to Ted Kennedy. It was after the Malays speech that he really said I'm gonna I'm gonna lean towards running against Carter. He didn't officially, you know, make that decision until Labor Day, but this was June. And he and he tells the story of basically saying after that speech, this is not the kind of leadership that America needs. And I could provide that leadership, I wouldn't blame the American people. And so by the summer and early fall of nineteen Seventy-nine poll show Kennedy beating cars. Her by two to one in the primary, and and so we enter the fall of nineteen seventy nine with pretty much a widespread conventional wisdom expectation that take enemies going to be the democratic nominee Carter has the lowest approval rating of I think any president up until then any George Bush surpassed him in that in that measure. But but Carter, you know, is really the underdog going into the primer. Right. His his his ratings were lower than Richard Nixon. And Watergate, right? Yeah. Can you how how is that possible? Right. Right. So it looks like a Kennedy has a wide open path. And then it all goes completely wrong for him. There was the Iranian revolution. And then they stormed the US embassy and took fifty two American hostages which caused Americans to rally around the president as tends to happen in an international crisis. So. That helped his numbers. And then the Carter people really understood how to organize a primary campaign a lot better than candidates didn't they they did. Although I would say I was really surprised by the fact that the hostage crisis helped Carter. I just I think the way that we remember history especially for somebody like me who hasn't lived through that period the way remember history or think about that time is that the hostage crisis hurt Carter. But it really did help him in the first couple of months after it happened because it rallied Americans to the presidency and it starved Kennedy of the ability to get into the news cycle because he couldn't is Carter on it. That was be one way to get into the new cycle without hurt him politically. And he couldn't really agree with Carter on how he's doing it because that's not gonna make news. So he was really stuck there on that. And then when it came to organizing Carter had just you know, he had one in seventy six because he understood the ways that the prime. Mary's were changing. And so you throw that in there you throw in the fact that Kennedy is sort of northeast elite celebrity does not really play well with farmers. It doesn't help that Chappaquiddick is still lurking in the background, which the Kennedy people thought it had been long enough. Maybe they decided to see themselves into thinking that because the opportunity was so great. I think that's quite likely. Right. So he started losing delegates. When everyone thought he would win them. You know as this campaign got underway. I mean often when politicians of the same party have their eye on a nomination before they start shooting. They will get together and talk is there a way we can work this out. Did these guys do this? What what did you hear from Jimmy Carter and from associates of both sides about how they felt about each other. I mean, they did talk about it. They had a conversation over the summer. I think just before Labor Day when when Kennedy made his decision, I think he info or maybe just after Labor Day. I think he informed Carter. There was never a huge amount of negotiation on this as you mentioned, the didn't really like each other very much a lot of that was really just style. I think Carter looked at Kennedy as somebody who had been given everything in life. And and we've mentioned, you know, how hard he had to work to get everything he got. So I think he really resented. That and look down on Kennedy for that. I think Kennedy just sell Carter as sort of a backwoods nobody who was going to was going to be gone. You know in in a couple of months, and he really had contempt for him in as as having not a lot of accomplishments and not a lot of pedigree. So they were just from alien worlds. I think that played a. Worlds that were Elian to each other. And I think that played a lot into why they couldn't understand each other. Right. There is this little incident where you report that Jimmy Carter. I mean, the president, and you know, the devout Christian is talking to some senators about how he used the campaign. What does he say? Yeah. He says I'm going to whip his ass which people today people, then didn't really think of Carter as a as a person who swore, but his political people push that out there because they wanted they wanted people to know that that Carter was not afraid of teddy. Kennedy any wasn't he? One of the really great stories in the book is about an incident in nineteen seventy four were we're Carter just really showed Kennedy up at a speech in Georgia. And he had never really been intimidated by Kennedy, which is really interesting. All right. So summer of August of nineteen eighty democratic convention in Madison Square Garden, a chance for the party to unite put all of this awful stuff behind them the United around Jimmy Carter, and it doesn't exactly work out that way Kennedy issues a statement saying it's clear I can't win he concedes. But he doesn't exactly do what Carter wants. He has a chance to speak Carter gave him a primetime. Speaking slot. Would is he do with his his moment in the spotlight. He he gets sort of obligatory praise and support to Carter. But then he really gives a speech that's about his own campaign and about his own ideals. Kennedy really talks about maybe the more, you know, moral and idealistic aspects of his candidacy doesn't really talk a lot about policy, and he gives this speech, which is really no now is one of the great political speeches of the last several decades. At least he uses the phrase, you know, to sail against the wind, which is a famous phrase from that campaign, and by the end of the speech, the whole convention hall is really, you know, in his in the palm of his hand, even you know Carter's advisers can feel the amount of appeal the amount of emotion, the amount of momentum that the speech has created and there's like a thirty minute. What's known as a demonstration? I don't know if we really even have those anymore, but those were. Things that used to do or they would cheer and dance and applaud and so they did that for thirty minutes after that speech. And so after that speech there was a vote on these policy proposals, and the Carter operation just had to basically concede to Kennedy on two of the three. Yeah. The Kennedy magic at work in huge a huge embarrassment for Carter to agree to these proposals. Right. The speech it was it was really the Kennedy magic again kind of appearing. Let's doesn't just to the end of the speech. This is Kennedy where he's kind of talking about his campaign. For me a few hours ago. This campaign came to an end for all those whose cares have been our concerned, the work goes on the cause and doors the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die. Not exactly we have a nominee who will transform America. It's there's a dream ahead of us. So what happens the following night is in some ways worse for Jimmy Carter. I mean, he gives the acceptance speech, and it's a perfectly serviceable speech and eventually Ted Kennedy makes his way to the stage. What is Carter one? I remember this vividly. What does Carter want what actually happens? This is the story that drew me to this book in the first place. This is what got me interested. I just thought how how could this possibly happen? In the is fascinating too. But basically Carter wants to get a picture with Kennedy of the two of them with their hands raised together above their heads that sort of the symbol of unity. Why is that so important to him who knows you know, in these moments wide things take on such significant importance? But it's it's it's the classic suspension ending. We're all marching forward together photo and he needed kit, Kennedy's charisma on his side. Yeah. I mean, it's a sort of silly thing in some respects, but because of the tradition it took on this out outsized importance in so Kennedy takes twenty plus minutes to get there. And I'll leave the details of why that happened to the book. But it's that's an interesting story all in of itself. But it takes twenty minutes to get there. The cheering and singing dies down after probably ten minutes. And. So the Carter people are just calling up everybody. They can think of their calling up obscure labor secretaries of scarce date officials to basically just try to keep people engaged and clapping. They can't get the balloons to fall. Everything is kind of going sideways. So Kennedy shows up finally the hall explodes. And he comes up on stage any shakes hands with Carter, but conspicuously he avoids raising the hands together hint hint Carter ended up shaking hands. Again. I went to Vanderbilt to watch this footage, but he the two of them shake in three or four or five times. But Kennedy won't give him the picture that he wants. And so the way it was described to me that got me interested in it. Basically Carter is chasing Kennedy around the stage. This is after he's just accepted the nomination. It's the pinnacle of his success in the in the primary. He's one. But after this humiliation on national television. He's kind of lost. It's just bizarre. Jon ward is a senior political correspondent for Yahoo news. His new book is Camelot's end. Kennedy versus Carter and the fight that broke the Democratic Party will continue our conversation in just a moment. This is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message. Come from season two of choice allergy and original podcasts from Charles Schwab season. Two of choice. Allergy is hosted by scientists Katie milkman, listen as she shares real world stories of people facing monumental decisions with special guests ranging from sports heroes, two Nobel laureates choice. Allergy also provides tools and strategies for making better choices in life. Download the latest episode and subscribe at Schwab dot com slash podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's unique about the human experience? And what are we all have in common? I'm guy Roz every week on Ted radio hour, we go on a journey to the big ideas. Emotions and discoveries that fill all of us with wonder find it on NPR one or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. And we're speaking with Yahoo. Senior political correspondent John Ward. He's covered Washington politics for twenty years. His new book about the battle between president Jimmy Carter and Senator Ted Kennedy in nineteen eighty is called Camelot's. And so this convention ends with this kind of Kennedy playing the star on the stage of the convention Carter, not getting the real endorsement from the Senator that he wanted the real kind of embrace and Ronald Reagan wins. The election beats Carter you saying that this is kind of turning point in American political history. Why so Democrats had been the dominant party since the new sense FDR and the new deal for much of the twentieth century. But once the civil rights movement, kicked off they began to quickly lose the south at the same time, you know, political party bosses in the big midwestern rust belt cities were. Losing power. And so they began to lose the ability to corral, white ethnic voters towards the Democrats and civil rights, quite frankly, also really angered a lot of the white ethnic voters in that part of the country. And so. You know, Jimmy Carter was a president who was able because he was from Georgia to appeal to the south, and he got a lot of southern states back in his corner in seventy six, but the Democrats had a problem because they're major constituencies where the for a long time where with the south and the midwest and rust belt, and they were losing both of them. And so what happened in nineteen eighty is that? Reagan was able to defeat Carter and much of the south as had been happening up until Carter, but he was able to take that away from Carter the southerner and get much of the midwest. And so that that was sort of the final shattering of that coalition, which was really the FDR coalition. You know, Kennedy had been trying to run on sort of DR type policies, the old style, liberalism, you know, trying to be populist, but the mid west the rust belt didn't really. You know, didn't really buy it from him. And and so for the next twelve years Republicans kept the White House until Bill Clinton a southerner came along and won back, some southern states. Hundred eighty was certainly attorney point in the lives of these two men Jimmy Carter and Ted Kennedy. Just remind us a bit of the courses that their lives took after. Both of them have really interesting stories after this episode. It was such a. Really bad period for them for both of them, a really tough defeat for county in the primary for Carter in general. And so I think for Carter, you know, he goes into a post-presidency at a pretty young age. And he's he's the president. Who has redefined what we know as the post-presidency? He starts the Carter Center. He becomes a philanthropist human rights activists overseas elections all over the world overseas, you know, hostage negotiations mediates between in in conflicts in different countries and erotics disease in places like Africa, and I will say in in doing this project, my respect for Jimmy Carter has really gone through the roof. I mean, he's somebody who has a deep in and devout faith, and he lives it, and you know, he didn't have a successful presidency. But you really can't fault. The guy's character. He has character flaws. Like, we all do and probably not the most fun. Guy to have a beer with. But you can't really knock him for his integrity and Ted Kennedy stayed in the Senate and accomplished a lot. Yeah. And this is a little more complicated. Because there was a famous piece written in g q in nineteen Ninety-one. Michael Kelly who is a famous journalist who ended up being killed in the Iraq war. And it was called teddy Kennedy on the rocks, and it really detailed a lot of bad misbehavior, most of it involving women with teddy Kennedy and Chris Dodd who was a Senator from Connecticut at the time and was Ted. He's you know, good friend and rabble-rousing companion. You have the incident in Florida where Teddy's nephew is accused of rape and Teddy's there. So it's not as if teddy goes from sort of playboy to line of the Senate all at once, but he meets Vicky Kennedy in the early nineties, and that really stabilizes his personal life. All this time, though, he is learning how to be a good Senator. I really think it's interesting that the the thing that makes a good Senator is the thing that made him less interesting than his brothers. Both of his brothers were more dynamic and charismatic and able to to succeed at the presidential level. Teddy was. Not as quite as sharpen dynamic that made him more of a hard worker when it came to understanding policy and really deciding to grind away three yards in a cloud of dust at getting to a bargain to get to get into an accomplished piece of legislation, and that's really both bipartisanship. And the persistence of the things that made him a really great Senator. But there was never really a warming of their relationship. That said when I asked Carter about Kennedy, you know, he gave a very nice compliment to him. And it's the last line of the book, you know, I asked Carter, you know? Do you think that teddy achieved redemption Carter said I don't think he needed redemption? I think he was one of the finest senators who ever lived. And so I think after Kennedy died after he'd had time to reflect I think Carter has come to a place of maybe less resentful feelings towards Ted Kennedy. Jon ward, thanks so much for speaking. With us is a privilege. Thank you. Jon ward is senior political correspondent for Yahoo news. His new book is Camelot's and Kennedy versus Carter and the fight that broke the Democratic Party coming up. John powers tells us about the new HBO TV movie Brexit, this is fresh air. Support for this podcast comes from the William T grant foundation at W T. Grant foundation dot org. And the new TV movie Brexit, which premieres on HBO Saturday night Benedict Cumberbatch stars as one of the behind the scenes figures in the 2016 campaign to have the United Kingdom withdraw from the European Union. The film got mixed reviews in Britain, but critic at large John power says it's an entertaining show whose themes will hit home with many Americans. It's impossible to talk about Great Britain's days without talking about Brexit. The United Kingdom's pending departure from the European Union. Of course, it's easier to say, you're leaving a longtime partnership, then to do it and two and a half years after the referendum that decided the issue what leaving means is still unknown. Just this Tuesday, Prime Minister Theresa May suffered a humiliating defeat. When parliament overwhelmingly rejected the blueprint for departure that she'd negotiated with the EU. The original vote to leave Europe is the subject of a new H B O movie, titled Brexit, which was made with Britain's Channel four breezy irreverent. And obviously far from complete this fictionalized piece of pop history goes behind the scenes to focus on the leave campaigns, top strategist and exceedingly clever, exceedingly annoying man named Dominic Cummings. He's played by Benedict. Cumberbatch who seemingly owns the copyright on men who have oversized egos to match their oversized brains in the corridors of power Cummings was known as one who doesn't suffer. Fools. Gladly and finds virtually everyone a fool, but he was also brilliant, which is why he was asked to mastermind the official campaign called vote. Leave a canny choice. Well, the remain in the EU campaign was run by politicos who followed familiar electoral norms Cummings was born disruptor eager to take down a police. Establishment? He thought lazy stupid and out of touch creating a campaign not of ideas, but of feelings, he crafted a slogan, take back control the tapped into popular nostalgia for an idealized British past that he himself didn't remotely believe in. He officially distanced the vote leave campaign from two notorious anti immigrant leaders politician, Nigel Faraj and money man, Aaron banks, but he didn't try to stop them from reading up the racists and mouth breeders who were their base. His leave campaign wasn't exactly wedded to the truth. It claimed that Britain's sent three hundred and fifty million pounds a week to Europe that could be used for the national health service, which was patently untrue. And it offered bogus scare talk. That Turkey was about to get into the EU. Meaning a million Turks could wind up in Britain. These inflammatory ideas were fanned by two star conservative MP's Boris Johnson. And michael. Here accompanied by Johnson and g-o-v Cummings revs up campaign workers or team. Listen. Now the fight for Britain. Really does begin. We have star endorsements. We have our message this you'll find copies of the wool book. His on message in a sheet. His message to the power of his message in a sentence. If you find a potential voter, the you hit him hard. And if it looks like the bend, then you don't just woke away Paci self on the back. You job will down hit him again. And again, right with three hundred and fifty million pounds and Turkey three hundred and fifty million Quint untucked, again three hundred fifty million quid untold key again. That again show no Mosul rights. Good. These days. It seems to be a rule that political movies have to be jaunty think vice lets the audience get bored or offended and so-. Brexit bounces right along it. Plays down the importance of politicians, like Johnson, Govan Farraj caricaturing them as ambitious hustlers. And clowns and boasts another crackerjack turn from Cumberbatch who's rumpled hair challenged Cummings displays the cavalier monomania of one who cares more about winning than the precise consequences. You can see why prime Minister David Cameron once termed him a career psychopath when the movie aired in Britain last week, some critics grouse that diminished or simply ignored key facts, including the leave campaigns illegal contributions, and it's racially nasty campaigning. This is quite true yet, despite such shortcomings Brexit is were seeing because it captures big truths about today's politics and. Not only in Great Britain. The leave campaign was once cruder and more sophisticated than the remain campaign cruder because it played on millions of voters xenophobia, nostalgia and genuine anger at feeling completely powerless more sophisticated because so much of this was done digitally coming signed up a cutting edge dead affirm that analyzed people's Facebook posts and Twitter feeds and then flooded their social media accounts with targeted ads the plate of their personal prejudices near the end Cummings bumps into Craig Oliver played by Rory Canir the hyper conventional Cameron aide who's running the remain campaign over a drink. Oliver tells him that the leave campaign is stirring up dark dangerous forces that it won't be able to control Cummings replies. That those forces were there all along that the elite simply couldn't see them, and it will take a new politics to straighten things out watching. Go back and forth. You get the scary sense that they both are right. John powers reviewed the new H B O movie Brexit, if you want to catch up on interviews you've missed like our interview with John C Reilly who plays Oliver hardy in the new film, STAN and Ollie or our interview with Tom gjelten about the pollution of US policy on immigration. Check out our podcast. You'll find plenty of fresh air interviews, fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced an edited by Amy salad Phyllis Myers. Sam brigger, Lauren crendall, Heidi soman. Theresa Madden moves eighty they Challenor and Seth Kelly for Terry gross. I'm Dave Davies. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Comcast business having the nation's largest gig speed network was just the start. 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Chappaquidick (1969) w/ Maeve Higgins

This Day In Esoteric Political History

16:47 min | 6 months ago

Chappaquidick (1969) w/ Maeve Higgins

"Misinformation, and fake news threatening our democracy is democracy. Even a thing anymore does US military spending actually keep a safe buckle up the new season of things that go boom gets bumping may have been prepping for war three when we were hit by world war see instead, and that's only the beginning of the shadowy silence threats to our national security. Grab a beer and join host lacy healy watches over the things keeping us up at night. Find things that go boom wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to stay in Esoteric Political History Radio Topi. My name is jody African. And welcome to our special Sunday edition, This Day July twenty, six, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty nine. The chappaquiddick incident is on the front pages of newspapers. A day after Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy guilty to a charge leaving the scene of an accident, the accident, which was about a week, earlier involved a single vehicle on the island of Chappaquiddick. Which is Martha's Vineyard. I believe Kennedy was driving and his companion twenty eight year old Mary Jo e was trapped in the car after a crash off a bridge into water capacity died in that accident for his guilty plea Kennedy received a two month, suspended jail, sentence and listeners if he can tell, I'm treading a little lightly with the sketch of the details. Details here, that is because one of the reasons we want to talk about. This is because so many details are murky, and so much of the fallout from this incident has been controversial for decades and at times conspiratorial, so I need some help talking about this. Luckily, I have two people here to help me do that. Nicole Hammer of Columbia as always here? Hello Jody and special guest. Maeve Higgins of the new. York Times and the PODCAST. Mothers have mentioned and lots more back for her third episode in a row Paloma, faith. Me Doty. Is this a scandal that you heard about growing up in Ireland and yeah the Kennedys a huge in Ireland. Do you know they're Irish Catholic background and we were so proud of them and I mean. I didn't hear about it at the time because I wasn't born, but definitely. I guess it was the type of scandal that followed him. and Ted Kennedy had a lot to do with the Northern Irish. Peace Process and a lot to do with you know. He was a huge figure in Irish. America, but there was always like this horrible cloud that like he killed somebody. I guess so nicky. Where do we start on this start? With the details of the case or in the sort of legacy that may referring to let's start with the details of the case, because it's very easy to get sucked into everything that happens after because this does become, as was indicating not just a mark on Kennedy's record that would follow him throughout his life. It would be an all of his obituaries, but something that's so got soaked up by. Political scandal machine that a lot of what actually happened get glossed over, and I should say because so much of what happened is in clear. This is one of those things where you can war shack out because. There's just too much that we don't know. I mean there there are questions about his behavior. There are questions of how to ended up in a car together question. There's questions about his sobriety when the accident happened. This questions I his behavior. Immediately afterwards. Some of his initial public statements didn't match up with what police claimed he. He made in his reports. I mean when it starts to then become sort public, more public story, Nikki, what are the details in the discrepancies that people most pick up on I think the thing that people really latch onto is that this accident happens? He goes off this bridge. That doesn't have any guardrails. Clearly. Tragic accident happens. He comes out of it. He's understandably probably confused and in shock, but he doesn't report it for ten hours goes back, and he puts up with his friends, and they try to figure out what to do. And whatever they figured out did not involve bringing the police in and I think that that then opens the door for all types of conspiracies, but also just like legitimate. Wondering like what did they try to do like? Were they trying to cover up? And toxication was at just that there was a lot of confusion and uncertainty was at that the water. was too strong and they couldn't make it, and they misunderstood who was going to report what I mean. There's a lot of again like a lot of wiggle room here but I. Think it's those ten hours delay in reporting. That's that are the big thing. It's such a long time it is. Such a long time. This is like so dumb, but I was watching succession that show, and there's like I guess they took inspiration from that horrible thing, and in that case it was like a wealthy entitled person who was kind of responsible for this accident that killed not famous person nod privileged candidate. You know whatever and. I guess that reminded me of a to, and and also that like this actual person died, and now she's just become like a story. That's attached to him. It's like you know. How did it affect him and what? His actual person, so it's kind of disturbing in not way rice. That like I don't really know anything about her. Actually I. think that's actually the most important part of this in terms of historical legacy. Is that so quickly? She became just a stange could be anyone right? There is a headline that was something like Kennedy. Accident Blonde dies, and like her name isn't even he didn't know how to spell her name, and so she gets if not entirely race. Because her name still known. She's just a stand in for other things when he does this public television apology. It's kind of all. All about him and what it means for him as a man, and as a politician, and how he will overcome it, and not so much about this woman who lost her life at a pretty young age. So, what should we know about Mary? Jo Kopechne me and why she was at Chappaquiddick and I will confess that before we started researching for this episode, I didn't really know much about her story. Her story is that she was one of these women who is volunteering for Bobby Kennedy in the nineteen sixty eight race. One of these people who like really believed in this kind of. Idealistic campaign that Kennedy was running, and there was a group of women who became known as the boiler room. Women who have. Banded together, and who were helping Kennedy to win this race, and then he's assassinated, and in the years that followed they would get together to remember their time together, and actually this gathering in Chappaquiddick was the boiler room, women and so her political history is a big part of the story, and you know in the wake of that speech I will say capacities, mother sort of said the she was satisfied with his statement and said that hope. Kennedy's doesn't doesn't resign, and stays in the Senate, which was a big part of was the thrust of his speech was I. Feel Bad, but I'm not gonNA give up any of my power. In the year, since in the decades, since the the family has kind of said that they never felt like the Kennedys, truly made peace, and reached out in ways that the matter to them but I wanna get to this bigger idea of the the Kennedys and what they represented this notion maeve got got to it of impunity and royalty, and how we have this fascination with the Kennedys, and we want them to be above special, and then these things happen, and they act above special, and it's kind of like well. This is what you get when you bestow special status of. Upon people they act with impunity. Yeah, and it's why they thing of like. There's a curse on the family. First of all, there's no such thing second of all. If you do get to have this like wealthy patriarch, and then no rules apply to these big powerful families, and they love doing wild things than there's a logical explanation. They're not supernatural people. So when it's like curse, thing comes up. I'm always like ooh. It's creepy. Yeah, and it's like that royal family. Thing Right which I'm always bewildered by Americans like love the royal family, because the whole point of America was like break free of the monarchy, but they just keep replacing them again and again. These abusive kind of people will end. The Kennedys were the closest thing that America ever had to a royal family. There was one point in the early nineteen sixties where John. Kennedy is President Bobby Kennedy. Is Attorney General and Ted? Kennedy is a US senator. I mean that's an incredible concentration of power and two of those stories of course end really tragically and so there's a way in which. You know all of the questions of extraordinary wealth and privilege and bad behavior don't necessarily stick to John and to Robert Kennedy precisely because their stories end so tragically, and so it all sort of lands on Ted Kennedy, who of course helps out? Pretty disillusioned for many number of years and I mean. This is the thing that that follows him and comes up throughout the decades. There is a case we made that there were potentially some presidential runs in Ted Kennedy feature that he didn't take on because he had this in his pass, and it would have brought it back up. That said he still had an incredibly powerful in long career and Mickey. I'm curious like if you can help us track how this story scandal sort of attached to him through the years. Did it mostly live on the right I? I mean that's where you would expect to live right. Yeah, I mean any sort of Ted. Kennedy opponent is going to mention chappaquiddick because it really is the Albatross around him. That remains throughout his career, but it's particularly in conservative circles Republican circles that chappaquiddick becomes a by word, not just for Kennedy's own immorality, but sort of the the decline of liberalism like this is actually what liberalism is, it is abusive. It has all these unintended consequences it's about privilege coddled protected. People and Ted Kennedy is kind of the embodiment of that, and so this tragedy becomes. More of a useful tool for trying to discredit Democrats and so on rush limbaugh show. He nicknamed Ted Kennedy The swimmer. That was mentioned sort of horror. Yeah, I, mean it, it's. It's horrible because it's this whole tragedy. That's just put into this throwaway nickname. He would have little ditties that he would do it. Just it gets really gross really quickly. If you go too far down that road, but I wonder if he would've just you know. I mean face the consequences, or or like somehow dealt with what happened then. Maybe it wouldn't have shadowed him for the rest of his life. I don't know yeah I mean I think it's still have been used by his political opponents, but I would not say that he crowned himself in glory by way that he handled the aftermath. Right I mean this gets to a more high minded idea, but it's like when you're powerful the notion of giving up even just a little bit of power feel so impossible would actually like you can. You can give up a little bit of power and still. Still. Be Really Powerful. He still would have been Kennedy. He's still would have had a political life if he'd just acted forthrightly and responsibly, but that's just not I think. A lot of these people are wired Mickey, am I am I wrong or like is my sense that this has also come a little bit from the left to in recent years, particularly around kind of like misogyny and a sort of using the chappaquiddick incident as a way of. Looking at. The Way Kennedy's and the left than this sort of like era of great American liberal men have not been good on gender yeah I mean I think this is really important that in the me error and particular, but even before then there was a real reassessment as more and more women were allowed into the historical arena to say the way John Kennedy treated women seems not great and in the case of Ted Kennedy. We definitely have these stories of him forcing himself on women who did not consent to that it was even written up in a joking manner in the magazines of the time where he assault a food server, and so this is definitely a. Part of that recounting is talking about the way that liberalism that was supposed to be helping all these people was being brought to us by men who didn't in their personal lives treat women in particular very well. Well I still want to marry a candidate. You will have your chance censure. But if you champion healthcare them as. The that clauses over everything all their personal failings I mean. Yeah, it's like that is the big debate. Awfully tons of women in their family, but they're. They were not as successful politically. That doesn't add up to me. Yeah I mean there are people like caroline, Kennedy who has had a well-connected and high powered career, but the Kennedy women were not always. Pointed to the path of politics in in this generation wouldn't have had nearly as many opportunities to do so okay anything else. You want to bring up. Yes, so because I was doing the show this week and thinking about these dates in history. This was the day like the day the accident happened. That was the day the that Neil. Armstrong Buzz Aldrin were scheduled to set foot on the moon. And then you're producing. Jacob found this amazing facts, which is, they had pre taped all these interviews with Ted Kennedy, who was like a big deal at that time just lauding the moon landing, and they were ready to play them, and at the same time almost the scandal broke, and only ABC went ahead, and like US use their clip of the now disgraced Ted Kennedy, and it's just like the need for content. Then was like almost. Almost as like all pervasive as it is now, it's just lucky. He didn't have instagram. That's what I think. Is You know on everybody at that party? Can you imagine who was tags? And who wasn't like it would have been. It would have been clear to find out what actually happened and why they were there together bus I mean lucky for him. They all he did was appear on ABC. That's morning being like. Hey, check out the moon. Moon landing which it didn't work as a distraction. Well, that's one of the things I like about doing. This shows you get these moments where you realize like Oh, in the same week in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, nine, Chappaquiddick and the moon landing and the headlines at the time. It's so related to now not that we look at newspaper front pages much anymore, but like you look at a newspaper front page from this week and it's like. Nixon making war plans the apollo eleven and Chappaquiddick all equal columns across the front, and it's just a reminder that we have had crazy moments like this before. A 'cause everybody knows like twenty twenty. Don't you dare not one more thing like we've been through this before. And we will continue to talk about it, but that is the end of this episode. So Miko Hammer thanks to you as always thank you, jody and may figgins. Thanks to you and thanks for doing these last two episodes. This is really fun and I will just say one of my favorite people in the real world, and also talking into microphones, so thank you for coming on. Teaching me about America. We're all going to be making plans to move tireless pretty soon so. You're saying that until a microphone just getting published, so we will hold you. This Day unnecessary political history is a proud member of Radio Topa from. X. Are, we sure and producer is Jacob Feldman. We'll be back on Tuesday with another episode. In the meantime you can check us out on social media at stay pot on instagram and twitter. My name is Jody Avirgan thanks for listening and we'll see. Whatever the future holds for me. I hope that I should have be able. What's most recent tragedy? And make some. Contribution. To our state. Mankind. WHETHER IT BE! Public Or private lies. Thank you? Radio. X.

President Bobby Kennedy Ted Kennedy Chappaquiddick John Kennedy America Kennedy Kennedys US Mary Jo e Maeve Higgins Jody jody African Mickey Martha's Vineyard Massachusetts Jacob Feldman York Times lacy healy Nicole Hammer Paloma
Agents of Change

The Book Review

49:04 min | Last month

Agents of Change

"What does recent scholarship. Tell us about the active role. Enslaved people played on the eve of the civil war. Historian kerry greenwich will be here to talk about two new books south of freedom and the kidnapping club with ted kennedy. The most accomplished the kennedy brothers. You'll gabler will be here to discuss the first volume of his to power graffiti catching the wind. Alexander alter we'll have an update from the publishing world. Plus our critics will join us for the latest in literary criticism. This is the book review. Podcast for the new york times. It's november eighteenth. I'm pamela paul carey. Greenwich joins us now from outside boston. She is the melon assistant professor in the department of studies in race colonialism and diaspora at tufts university. She's also the author of black radical. The life and times. Of william monroe. Trotter and this week she reviews two bucks on the cover of the book review. They are south to freedom runaway slaves to mexico and the road to the civil war by alice l. Baumgartner and the kidnapping club wall street slavery and resistance on the eve of the civil war by jonathan. Daniel wells all right. That's a lot. Carrie thank you so much for being here vegas much for having me. So it's interesting looking at these two books together. They're sort of an error but they told two different sides of the same story. Just if you could tell us broadly. What are the two books about. Certainly the book by jonathan. Daniel wells the kidnapping club. It talks about the organiz. Terror inflicted on black new yorkers by kidnapping club which was a group of investors business owners and police officers in new york city in the years before the civil war and they use the fugitive slave law to be enslaved to kidnap african americans. Who were living nominally free in new york and transporting them back into the south and then we have our gardeners beautiful south to freedom runaway slaves to mexico which traces the journey of escaped slaves to mexico again in the decades before the civil war and the relationship between mexico freedom and concepts of recent citizenship. So the story of the kidnapping club if it is at all familiar to listeners. It's probably most familiar as the story that was told. In the recent film. Twelve years a slave it was sort of lightly fictionalized version the memoirs of solomon northrop but. What's the larger story here. The larger store which i think john wells does extremely well is a story of the complicity of the north in enslavement and enslave rate and the fact that american slavery was a national and a transnational institution and that to argue that somehow new york city was acknowledged as a free state although that was true because slavery was a national international institution. The powers that be in new york in the years before the civil war were dedicated to upholding that system. And so it really goes into the heart of this notion. What does it mean to be a free person. A free african american in a country and in a global system that endorsed racial slavery. The other thing that. I think jonathan daniel wells book does very well is connect the distrust the relationship between the police and law enforcement particularly in new york city. But we can use that. As a microcosm of parts of the country between new york city's police department and authorities and the black community and this video the trail that the black community felt justifiably so and experience at the hands of the police being an organized club to kidnap particularly black children and send them back into the south heart so obviously there are some contemporary parallels but one thing i thought was so interesting. That you point out in your review is the extent to which the various powers from the insurance business to the finance community to the law community was entrenched in maintaining the slave trade. Can you talk about the extent to which the early capitalist economy of new york city sort of thrived and depended on slavery so in wells book. He shows that the number one there was a cultural connection between the financier is in wall street in new york city and slavery in the south and so all of the banks all of the investment firms all of the capital that was funding the system that it took to maintain enslavement for instance investing in the distribution of food distribution of goods that were sent into the south to maintain slavery. That was a business and that was run through wall street's financial system and so it wells argues shows is that that system was dependent upon southern slavery. Southern slavery was dependent behind that system and so there was a vested interest by very very powerful people organizations in new york city to maintain and to ensure that slavery existed there is also a very vested interest in ensuring that fugitive slaves who escaped would be returned to the south given the fact that we're talking about black bodies commodities and the fact that if a black person escaped that was in the crude terms of the time somebody losing money and investment and so this whole machinery of kidnapping african americans and sending them back in the south. It was a business and it was making a lot of money for a lot of people. What was the been club. Was this an actual club. And who started it. And who were the members so the kidnapping club was the term coined as well as points out by david ruggles. Who was a african american abolitionist. Who lived in new york city. And as an abolitionist he was the one who coined this term to talk about. How the connections between investments bankers investment companies and banks in the slave system and members of included. He mentioned to specifically tobias buono and daniel nash. Who were police officers in the city of new york and they will as a lot of power within the city through many hall. We think of tammany hall is being this source of corruption after the civil war but wells points out so beautifully as that. It's this mechanism Democratic governance in the city that was in partnership with the police department and the two together. The police department through buddha no nash and the terrorism inflicted upon the black community was coordinated between tammany hall and the police department. And what was the new york. Vigilence committee near vigilance committee was a group of african americans who basically argued that black people should defend themselves against this assault by the police department. Authority is in new york. And so ruggles started the society. Frederick douglass eventually used it to help him as he escaped from baltimore to the north and as secretary of this group they would. Ruggles really argued that black people should be monitoring should be surveying the black community for people who were out to kidnap a particularly black children but sort of harassed the black community and so this committee could sit a black abolitionists as years went on some white supporters and it helped slaves from new york city. Who were under the surveillance or the harassment of police and send them out of new york places. Further north and how effective were they. They were very effective in terms of causing many white anti-slavery activists who were against slavery but who many of whom did not understand the depths of in which north was complicit in the slave trade and returning black people to slavery. The vigilance committee really brought attention. To the fact that this was an issue and a crisis for instance had a newspaper called the mirror of liberty and through it. He publicized these cases wells documents very well and uses the black press these cases that were not for him documenting them most of the rest of the city would have not recognized that they existed and so publicizing that this was happening coordinating with free black communities throughout the north to the black press and really getting black people who were harassed by the police and kidnapped by the police getting them into these networks of abolitionist so that they could receive assistance. People have sense at this point in history. That new york city wasn't exactly on the side of the right in the good generally speaking on the eve of the civil war and fought in many ways or certain people in power in new york fought against the abolition of slavery. But this book seems to offer a level of detail around how that actually worked and why that resistance to abolishing slavery was so strong. The less known story. I think for many people is probably the one told in alice. Bound gardner's book south to freedom runaway slaves to mexico and the road to civil war was a little bit about the story. She is relaying in her book. Baumgartner's brooke is this beautiful rendering of the relationship between the civil war and this global politics that are happening in the area of the mid nineteenth century and she traces the escape of enslaved people from the united states to eventually became mexico and talks about the complicated relationship between mexico and the united states but uses these specific journey of african american people. Enslaved most of them enslaved some of them free over the border into what became mexico. We have to remember that the border between what we now know as mexico and the united states that was actually originally the country or the call of new spain. Underneath spanish control there is a war and eventually mexico became a republic of its own and when that happened there was this migration of southern slaveholders specifically to mexico to spread slavery into the into the west and so really what bumgarner show is in what ways the civil war is not just an american war is reward that took place in the americas and complicated relationship between the united states and bordering countries. All right let's give a little bit of background about what's the laws were at the time booth on the united states side and on the what was then the new spain side so beginning in the us. And i think this covers part of this period were the confiscation acts so within the united states in the federal constitution. It allowed that property was protected underneath the constitution in so because african americans were considered property. There was a push going back in. Seventeen eighty s four slaveholders to have protections if their property was absconded and basically that meant if slaves ran away and so there was a long history of african american people fleeing not just from plantations but realizing that they had to flee somewhere particularly if they are on the southwestern border to a place where american laws could not find them and so people african american people in what is not present day florida alabama louisiana fleeing over the border into what was that in spain and spain actually had slavery but spain also had a policy that enslaved people once they king into zen considered new spain had certain rights and protections. Once they cross border was the theater burkina's yes which basically was a royal decree through the spanish government that said in sleep people could not be mistreated by their owners and if there was evidence of them being mistreated being physically abused of being unduly exploited that the crown would protect them and so many african americans fleeing from for instance. Louisiana and baumgartner uses these vivid stories of enslaved people being taken over the border from louisiana into new spain. And the enslaved people themselves recognizing that they could flee to one of the states in new spain and plea underneath e-eh potatoes and that then they could receive protections and so. This was a long history of the relationship between african people. Fleeing over the border into new spain then happened was once white. Slaveholders began to settle into what was then called. Tejas which you now know of as the region of texas after the mexican war when rex became a republic after that happened american people began to see mexico. V place in new spain as a place where they could receive protection so mexico eventually outlawed slavery in mexico also eventually signed a treaty with haiti in which there was this this vision of creating a racial republic that stretch from mexico down through the peninsula into the care being and so many african slaves saw mexico as this alternative as barrier between enslavement. And the united states. When did mexico banned slavery so eighteen twenty one is when mexico puts into law the notion that there is no slavery within the mexican republic but the mexican government did allow protections for migrants to tejas. Which was this northern section with mexico for them to bring their property with them so one of the things that baumgartner does in her book. That is very astute is looking at how it was that. Even though slavery is ending and was ending in mexico that white slaveholders continued to move into this area that's called tejas and bring their slaves with them and the arguments and the sort of geopolitical consequences of that dynamic between the mexican government and then these white american slaveholders who migrated with their slaves into tejas. We have to remember. This is the eighteen thirties and is mexico in the eighteen thirties. At a time when the central government had a hard time policing administering patrolling kind of these northern frontiers sincere the frontier in mexico and so white settlers bringing their slaves into tejas and then basically planting themselves there until they were confronted either by the slaves themselves or by the mexican government. What exactly was impact of the partito us and the anti slavery laws in eighteen twenty one in mexico on the way in which we thought about slavery and the politics around slavery laws in the united states at that time it really brought to the attention of both mexico and white southerners that african american people would continue to escaped that they were this form of what was called the time kind of troublesome property that if african americans were given this safety valve into new spain and then that became mexico that they would take advantage of it. So what this did was it made it so that the united states in mexico the entire relationship between those two countries into an including the mexican american war was based upon his idea of slavery. And what was these two republics be would mexico be a place of freedom where they were allowed to accord freedom to people who came into its borders or the united states. Continue to expand into the west and so it really alters the way we think of the mexican american war particularly for people who are from What we now call. The southwestern united states idea there's constant exchange of african american people and that exchange itself led to this conflict between mexico and the united states and eventually to mexican american war which then gave us the southwestern united states. It sounds like together. These two books are trying to reframe the history of nineteenth century american politics around slavery and around brace interesting. You know this is as much shaped by black resistance to enslavement as it was by the institution of slavery itself. But that'd be accurate. Yes and i think that's the beauty and the contribution of both of these books is that it really takes the focus away from the north being a place of freedom that slavery ended because good people in the north and good peoples north. Knew that slavery was wrong. And against it and that that's how slavery ended really what these two books arguing is that there's a complicity in this relationship between the north and the south and enslavement. There's a vested interest by the most populated city in the country new york city in maintaining enslavement. And that billy slavery begins to collapse. It's challenged it's pushed by african american people themselves. I buy them running away. And then what does this mean. That african americans are people and by their very running they alter and change the politics of the places from which they came in the places to which they ended up. I mentioned early on in introducing you that you work in the department of studies in race colonialism and i asked her at tufts university. So you're obviously familiar with it. Sort of academic work in this area is this part of a larger trend within ray studies and american history. Reexamining this period. Yes i think that this this idea of ethnic studies. This idea of lead next studies idea of diaz bork studies the impetus behind that and our department at tufts is questioning the very idea of what boundaries and nation states mean questioning. What does race. And what does colonials mean. What are the consequences of dealing with actual human beings within the politics of race and colonization. Anti call my station and they asked her as they exist. So i think this is where the field is headed. I think her story and have a long way to go. But i definitely think this is where historians are looking. They're looking to see the civil war. See the nineteenth century not merely in terms of an american civil war but in how it is that the american civil war an american interacts with is shaped by both the people within it and then the borders and the nation states with which it interacts. A certainly. when you look at this from a books perspective you know. It's the wars that people really want to read about. At least judging by the number of books published you know world war one world war two and of course the civil war and so there's no shortage books around this subject one of the things i'm wondering is isn't their new research or are these scholars looking at new kinds of research in digging deeper within this period. If you have an ethnic studies are cd lens in my department is it short. Are cd it when you have that lens. It really allows you to question the archives that you're looking at so always going into the sources but one of the things i love about wells' book in particular is going really into the records of these companies in new york city right. Why would a northern police department be so vested in returning fugitive slaves to the south right and so relying on the archive but really questioning. What it is at the archive is showing you and and really broadening with the archive means you know looking at the life of david. Ruggles and wells book for instance looking at this vigilance committee. For instance. not looking at it as something. That is one instance of black resistance. But the fact that that is an institution that had a pattern of resistance and baumgartner's book really questioning will. What did it mean that you had slaveholders moving into new spain and then moving into mexico when we know that both new spain mexico had very different ideas of property and of slavery. And what happened. When african american people cross that border. And how would that then create their relationship. And the only reason you wouldn't look at those sources is if you're arguing that somehow african american people are not human beings right that they're not taking advantage of the borders that are designed to insulate totally fascinating re examination of the origins of the civil war in the kind of road to the abolishment of slavery in this country. Carrie thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me these. These are wonderful books. And i really hope. People read them the ability to change the discourse surrounding the civil war. Well the titles of his books again are south freedom runaway slaves to mexico and the road to the civil war by alison l. Baumgartner and the kidnapping club wall street slavery and resistance on the eve of the civil war by jonathan daniel bells both of them reviewed by our guest carry greenwich who is the author herself of very acclaimed book which you also should read black radical. The life and times of william monroe. Trotter kerry thanks again. He's much for having me. And neil gabler joins us now from at new york to talk about his latest book. Orphee of ted kennedy. It's called catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty two to nineteen seventy five. Neil thanks for being here. Thank you for inviting me. So the first question i always have when i'm looking at the first of a two volume or three volume biography is did you know from the get-go that that's the way this was gonna work out or did you think you were writing a one volume book and it just became clear that it couldn't be contained. I thought it was going to be a one volume book until fairly recently. In fact i intended the book to be one volume. Because i think there's a somatic line that runs through it. And i wanted the book to have that kind of integrity both narrative and semantically. But we got to the point where my publisher crown came to me and said that they thought it would be advisable to divided into two that the book would simply be too large volume to his larger than volume one so it would have been a book of roughly fifteen hundred written reading pages exclusive of footnotes and bibliography material and all that so when when they approach me with that. Let me make the decision. I thought about it long and hard. Because again i think about these books that i try and craft these books and it was a single volume in my mind but when i examined it i thought you know there is a breaking point here and the breaking point. Is that so much of what happens. Up to nineteen seventy-five is edward. Kennedy writing the wind or catching the wind the liberal wind and then what happens afterward israeli edward kennedy sailing as he said in a very famous speeches against the wind and i thought well it's appropriate then that we divide this into two volumes that we tell the story of the ascendance of liberalism and the story of the decline of liberalism each volume dealing with those things respectively. Well it's interesting. Then that this end nineteen seventy five one might think of that as a more conservative period given nixon's election so why nineteen seventy five is the kind of end point of this liberal hour before you go to the against the wind. Part of this richard. Nixon advanced conservatism. But with watergate he also said it back and liberals in the in the one thousand nine hundred ninety. Four midterm election liberals gained power democrats getting power and so they got a kind of respite really. They got a second breath after the heyday of the liberal. Our in the Nine hundred and sixty s mid nineteen sixties during the great society. So they got their second win but it by nineteen seventy five. When gerald ford was in power that second wind was already beginning to die and the book ends. I don't wanna give a you know. I should give a spoiler alert here. But i don't know that it's necessary when you're dealing with political history but the book ends with a with an episode that i think is really kind of salient and that is the episode of the anti busing protests in boston in nineteen seventy four and into nineteen seventy five. When the irish italian white bostonians marched to oppose a court ordered busing. Integration and ted kennedy was kind of caught betwixt in between because these ethnic whites were ted. Kennedy's people these were the people who would always supported the kennedys but on the other hand the kennedys were and particularly. Ted kennedy were great supporters of the african american community and so took was was caught in a pincer between these two forces and though he was not adamant about the court ordered busing. It wasn't if he went out there and said you got to do this. He was adamant about integration. And what that caused and this is again the concluding episode of the bulk. And i think it's a very tense tense episode and at a very terrifying episode for ted kennedy as these crowds literally turned on him and chased it and threw things at him and beat him. One of them had a a a standard the american flag in they shouted at him and poked him like a spear and ted kennedy. This is literally true. Ted kennedy had to run for his life and he escaped into a mta station. Subway station where his aides held back the crowds. Who were going after him and fortunately for him a train arrived just as he escaped into the station he jumped on that train. And even then the crowds retreated follow. Tried to follow in. They jump to their automobiles and followed that train. But this was an episode. That in some ways was the harbinger of what was to come. Which was the anger of white ethnic america at the liberal agenda so going back to that initial question about these two volumes. It sounds like you had already written the entire thing when this decision was made to divide it into two i had. I had the both both books while. I didn't think of them as both books. But but the book was complete and volume two will be published next year a year after volume one. So i had in my mind you know. I knew exactly where. I wanted the book to go when i started it and robert. Caro says the always writes the last sentence. I but basically what i do is i outlined the entire book in this case it turned out to be two books but i knew exactly where this was going. I knew where every chapter was. I knew were virtually every beat in the book was because that's how i right. I i believe pamela in a kind of metaphysics of writing by which i mean that readers can detect the process of your writing. They know when you're struggling. They know when you're hitting bumps. And i do everything in my power to preloaded book so that there are no bumps and the book. I like to think the reeds almost musically. Because i've done so much preparation. That when i actually sit down to write. I write very quickly. Astonishingly quickly to my editors and even my agent so that i saw that the book just flows because i want the book to just absolutely flow. This is going to be very painful. For many of the writers and aspiring writer. A listen to us to here but this isn't your first cowger fee. Of course you've written. Bagger fees walter winchell and walt disney most notably. I'm sure each of them has their challenges. What were the particular challenges of writing. A biography of ted kennedy. There have been many many books about the kennedys. Tide is written. His own memoir. What was the biggest challenge for you. Well that's challenge of course when there are other books out there i would never write a book where i felt and this is not an insult to any other writer. Who's written about kennedy. Not by any means is an insult. But if i felt any previous biographer had done what i intended to do with this book a you know. I wouldn't have written the book i've not that ego centric that i think while i'm going to be better than everybody else. I approached this book as a biography of edward kennedy but also equally biography of american liberalism. So there was that challenge but the biggest challenge in this book is. I hate to write without papers. I hate to write without complete access to everything. And when i wrote about walter wind. Chill all of his papers re auctioned at actually went to the auction house and i spent several weeks. Because that's all i had going through. Every document could with a tape recorder from morning night. The auction house. Let me stay there. And i spent god knows how many hours doing that. What i wrote about. Walt disney the disney archive. I spent years literally in the disney archives. Going through all. Walt disney's papers from the deed that his great grandfather had had in canada to the last papers before his death here. The papers were all sealed and they were only now being opened. And i hated the idea of writing a biography without papers but there was also another challenge in that was that the kennedy family was not cooperative. I would never write an official biography. That is something i would never ever do. It's just not how i do that. I'm not an authorized biographer. But it was difficult because although the kennedys are secretive at the operate as i say in the book under a kind of code of america were nobody talks about anything still all. I love to sit down and conduct lengthy interviews. And i was able to get some of those but with only one family member and that was patrick kennedy. Patrick kennedy. the youngest son of younger son. I should say of edward kennedy was the only one who was very generous with his time. I spoke with ten. Junior finally decided not to cooperate. And i didn't get any cooperation from vicky and that was difficult. But i finally made the decision and i wrestled with this decision. I finally made the decision that i didn't think the book would be significantly different without having those interviews because they had given interviews to the oral history. Edward kennedy oral history at the miller center university of virginia. I'd access to all of those interviews and they've been interviewed numerous times and various other places and i read all of those so in the final analysis. I bit the bullet. And i said i'm going to proceed with the book even without that material so just notes to listeners. Vicky is ted kennedy's widow and she's still alive. Oh yes she is and still active. That was one of my questions about access because of course as you say they famously deny access to almost everyone. If you'd known going in that they were not by and large going to talk to you. Do you think you would have even embarked on the project or did you go in thinking. You would get them on board somehow. I always think that. I'm going to get the cooperation of the family. What i wrote walter wind chill. The family was very difficult to find. Frankly but in the final analysis they did cooperate. His granddaughter cooperated with me in the case of walt disney. Diane disney miller walt disney's daughter sole surviving daughter would not speak to me for. I would say the first six years that i worked on the book but finally finally i got a phone call from her and she said that she would cooperate. And i flew out to san francisco which is where she lived and she was very cooperative though. It turned out in the final analysis. She's like the book but and many of the things she didn't like where the birthing she told me which. I always thought would somewhat ironic. But i was hoping in this case that i would get that. I'm not sure whether i would have proceeded. Had i known that the family would be uncooperative. But again once. I was into the project. I told myself that you know the book would not be as i said earlier significantly different than i had so much material. I talked to so many people. I'd read so many interviews that i felt. I had the material needed to tell the story. I wanted to tell now. Obviously the book would have been different. Had vicki kennedy sat and talked to me or to junior. But you play the hand you're dealt and that was the hand i was dealt. We all think we know we all have images of sort of what each kennedy was. Like how would you characterize kennedy coming out of your research this book and did anything surprise you about him as a man as a person. A lot of things surprised me. I think i came into this book. I try never to prejudge. I never right. Hagiography or demon. Aw graffiti i mean i try and take the story where it leads and though i admired the kennedys. I didn't particularly feel that this was going to be. You know i was going to genuflect before them. But i always thought of ted kennedy. The way that. I think most people thought of ted kennedy. He was a hugger. He was a glad hander. He was oistrakh he was more of. Its gerald speaking of his grandfather. Honey fitz fitzgerald. Who was at one time. A congressman and mayor. Boston was also glad ending retail politician. I always thought of ted kennedy that way. The happiest of the kennedy's the least complicated of the candidates. And i have to admit the least intelligent of the kennedys which was the general characterization of him. i found. I spent over ten years on this book that that characterization was partially correct. Yes he did. Love retail politics. He was a hungary. Was a glad hander. He was in many ways. More fitzgerald. Kennedy but i also found that that was misleading. Ted kennedy was a very complicated man. He was a very melancholy. Man and many moments of his life. We see and i say this explicitly the book. You don't we see the public. Ted kennedy this boisterous figure but we don't see the private at kennedy. The one who would spend hours staring out at the sea the one who was a fatalist who believed that as his brothers were killed he would be next. Who was certain that he was going to take an assassin's bullet. We don't see that. ted kennedy. We don't know that. We don't know the ted kennedy who spent hours and hours and hours poring over legislation and learning going to harvard professors to be tutored to get the background for legislation so that he could debate on the floor of the senate with the very best of them and he became one of the best of we. Don't know that ted kennedy. We saw the tube of that iceberg. But there was so much of an iceberg there was under the water. And that was the ted kennedy who in many ways to me was not only unfamiliar but in many respects the real to the deep melancholic fatalistic to kennedy and he dominates the book. Your title here is catching the wind. It sounds like the title of your next volume might be against the wind. The title of the title the title. Okay there we go and the title of these own memoir was true compass which i thought was a really interesting book but obviously all of them sailing metaphors but two questions one is. What was the role of sailing. Obviously it sounds like it was very central to ted kennedy but also how accurate was his own memoir. Do you know you're talking about the melancholy and tragedy in his life. Did you think that he knew himself. Well and did he portray that. did that. Come through in true compass. A whole the the nautical metaphors for a moment because they are important and and there are key. I think understanding ted kennedy. The kennedys are known for because they were trained by their parents to be resilient stoic facing tragedy. i don't want any sour pushes. Joe kennedy would say no tears in the kennedy family. Joe kennedy would say so when they face these tragedies while we saw was that face of stoicism i think there's some of that in true compass y- kennedy reveals himself but like all kennedy's the only reveals himself so much and there's a wonderful line. I quoted in the book that i think it was timothy shriver. One of the kennedy cousins son of sargent shriver said to patrick kennedy which is the family. Pathology is secrecy. Everything was secret including a motion and you never revealed emotion. There is some of that kind of circumspection in true compass but there is also something else in true compass. There are moments of self reflection. I don't think that until the end of his life. He was terribly introspective. Or self reflective individual because. I don't think he wanted to allow himself that. I think he was afraid of what he would find. There's a story that patrick kennedy told me where he does. Father had had an argument and he had disappointed his father in some sense and ted kennedy unable to express fully. What what he wanted to express to a son. Or perhaps you holding his emotion took him into the library and he took out auto value of the enemy within which was robert. Kennedy's description of the racket committee hearings. Which robert kennedy was the majority council during and he opened the book and it was inscribed by bobby to ted and he said to my brother teddy who has his own enemies within. And i think ted understood that that he had his own enemies. He was fighting. Those enemies and to be too introspective would loose those enemies. But were those animations. I think part of it was his own sense of his own fallibility his own sense of his lack of worth which i think he lived with all of his life. The single most important line i think. True compass and the most introspective line probably in the entire book. Although it's something of a throwaway line is. I never felt i was the equal of my brothers. Well he felt that way. His family felt that way. The general public felt that way. And i think it was a very difficult thing for him to contend with that. He was so fallible that he wasn't a great man and he wanted so much to be a great man. Because the legacy of the kennedys imposed by joe kennedy was greatness. You have to be great. You have to be great now. Ironically i think most people well not in bieber not most but many many people would say that he turned out to be in terms of the things he contributed to the public wheel. The greatest of the kennedy brothers but he never felt that way and he he strove to want to feel that way but he could. Let's end on something we brought up earlier. Which is the nautical metaphor. What role did sailing play in his life. Well first of all the see play degree role in his life. I said he wasn't the most introspective of men and he wasn't but he was very introspective about the see that it continues on forever it's unchanging you can't conquer it you only can submit to it. And that was the way he saw life. This was a man who believed he could accomplish. Great things but also understood the parameters about those things. I think ted kennedy saw the see sort of the way that robert kennedy or k. Gusau the saw the sun taught him that everything is in history that there are larger forces in the world and that you have to deal with those forces all right well clearly we will have to have you back on to talk about volume to. We didn't even mention chappaquiddick. Obviously another a whole big subject unto itself and not unrelated to what you're you're talking about but will leave it here for now. Neil thanks so much for being here. Thank you again for the invitation. I appreciate neil. Gabler new book is called catching the wind. Edward kennedy and the liberal our nineteen thirty two to nineteen seventy five the first in a two volume biography of ted kennedy alexander altered joins us now with some news from the publishing world highly. Sandra what's new in the publishing world so we're sort of taking stock of the year which was a very unusual year as we've discussed many times. There were an incredible number of challenges that publishers and authors faced most prominently. I think the closure of bookstores which are still suffering stresses on the supply chain shifting pump deeds because the supply chain was challenged or maybe an author to wait till they could potentially have a tour that turned out not to be the case in the fall either so it was a year of major upheaval but also kind of a positive year The more people. I talk to others the more consensus. I hear from publishers and agents that everyone is shocked. By how while the industry has withstood all the challenges the economy so the latest figures from npd book scan which tracks sales through early december show that print sales are actually up almost eight percent this year over last year and if you look at evoke sales and audiobook sales which the association of american publishers has been tracking those have been up by double digits which is not surprising when people aren't able to get out to the store. They're they're buying things. Digitally publishers have continued to see really strong. Interest in what in what they're selling and there have been a lot of great new books that have come out the latest figures. For former president barack obama's memoir promised land were pretty astronomical. It sold more than three point. Three million units across all formats in the us and canada in its first month so that is a huge number. I mean that's kind of thing that can put retailers in really good shape for the year to have a hit like that. Come out at the end of the year. Obviously there is still a little bit of time left in the holiday season and that's the time of year that independence in particular are really depend on sales so there have been a lot of please beginning weeks ago for people to get their orders in early all these independence or having to ship stuff you know. They're not necessarily having a ton of foot traffic so that can delay things so hopefully people have put in their orders. And this'll be a good holiday season for booksellers as well as publishers. Let us hope right. Alexandra thanks for being here. Thanks so much for having me joining us now to talk about what they're reading and reviewing our critics dwight garner and carl cycle. Hey guys good morning all right. It is december. There are not a lot of sort of big new books out but maybe it's an opportunity for some smaller books to get attention. What books did you all review this week. Let's start with you dwight. Oh i got lucky. Pamela i used to follow sports quite a lot when i was younger. I don't follow quite as much anymore. i sort of. I would say that on the kind of sports fan who reads the front page of the sports section but doesn't read the second page. But i remember quite well when i was in high school john thompson. Who coached georgetown. It's basketball team is very tall black man who was just really a coach and he led the team to a national championship in nineteen eighty four and he was one of the very rare black college basketball coaches at the time. And there's still aren't enough of them. Frankly thompson died about two months ago and now his memoirs come out. He's written with a ghostwriter ed. It's quite good. I mean it describes his upbringing in the projects of washington. Dc in the in the forties and fifties and realization that his height his athletic ability might take him some places at america and racism. His parents face made his father never learned to read or write. His mother had a degree in education was forced to day. Work leaving for white people. And it's about how he made it into basketball and into the closed world of coaching. Read our back. The famous coach of the boston celtics was his mentor and helped him. And the book is just more complicated than you might think in more well written a more thought through than you might think about basketball about young people about race. It's just a pretty solid book. And i was glad to have a chance to read it. Cardi read basketball books. No i don't follow basketball books or sports. But i do follow as annoying statement. This might be davinci books. And i reviewed i really do. I will read them all. There's certain genres. If there's a memoir about a withholding mother show biography. i will read. And hopefully you'll let me review this book. So i went back to november. There was a book. That i kind of had my eye on greg up with other things and you know casting around for books in december went back and decided to to look at this. It's called the shadow drawing by an art. Historian named francesca fiorani. And look. There's nothing in this book. That comes as a grand revelation. But the argument that she's trying to make is at this idea of davinci as this polymath as renaissance man is very reductive. You know the prevailing argument floated by freud. Mischievously is always has been that as davinci grew older. He abandoned painting for science. And you only really complete it. Fifteen paintings in forty years. He did paint less and less than he did. Right more and more and become more interested in the 'aeronautics geology. But a few only wants to say is that for him. Knowledge was indivisible. It was continuous and His paintings were the places that he wanted to experiment with. What he was. Learning painting was his language is preferred mode of communication so anything that he was learning about optics or learning about geology learning about personality of the psyche took it to the paintings and explored it there and again so maybe not not huge revelations but you know she brings really fresh forced to this argument and especially if you're interested in things like perception and optics and and sort of these interesting close readings of the paintings. This book is is very very pleasurable treat. Are you guys gonna read over holiday vacation. It's a great question tonight. What are you reading you know. I woke up last night. i couldn't sleep. I was vaguely distraught. And the way you are. Sometimes you can't sleep. And i downstairs and i found this book of james sentence poetry. He is of course is the british poet. He's now i think in his early seventies and his poems are very tight. Very metrical sort of rhymed. And i found that reading it my dining room table attune the morning these really tightly constructed rhyming poems was really i. I'm so over tonight. I'm as guilty as anyone. But i'm so tired. People saying oh the solace. I found in books but you know sometimes you find god damn solace in books and really did a two in the morning reading james fenton last night to this is so we're in in opposite ways because i'm gonna read some poetry too but you know i really like to be irritated and aggravated by reading. And don't like to be consoled. And i think i'm just gonna read a ton of larkin always end up meeting in and i just find that i need a little bit misanthropic around the season. Absolutely honest fenton has some ebola fenton They were friends. Here we are. Here's a lincoln are reading. We end on friendship and poetry old british men. All right carl white. Let's run down the titles of the books. You reviewed by came as shadow by john thompson and review. The shadow joined fantastic. You running all right carl. Thanks for being here. Thank you pamela. Remember there's more at ny times dot com slash books and you can always write to us at books at ny times dot com. I write back not right away. But i do the book review. Podcast is produced by greed. Pietro rossato from head stepper media with a major assist. My colleague john williams. Thanks for listening for the new york. Times i'm pamela paul.

mexico new spain new york city ted kennedy america mexican government Daniel wells new york kennedy department of studies william monroe Baumgartner baumgartner tammany hall police department kerry greenwich pamela paul carey alice l solomon northrop jonathan daniel wells
Chappaquiddick | Dazed and Confused | 2

Even the Rich

40:52 min | 4 months ago

Chappaquiddick | Dazed and Confused | 2

"Get out your bleep button Brooke because I'm GonNa let a few bombs Fi. Just. After midnight on Saturday July nineteenth nineteen, sixty nine and the boiler room girls are ready to get the hell out of the cottage on Chappaquiddick. The last ferry to the vineyard departs in just under an hour and they plan to be on it. The girls roam around collecting their belongings which are jumbled among empty glasses and ashtrays piled high with Butts. One of the girls picks up a pocket book and calls out to the others. Hey, isn't this Mary Jo's? Okay. Sorry to interrupt here. But what's the difference between a person? A pocket book I don't know I think a pocketbook carries the perse. Okay. Well, that's just not logical anyway. The girl who picks it up gets a bunch of confused looks from the others probably because they don't know what a pocket book is. Okay not quite they're confused because their friend, Mary Jo Kopechne e left ages ago with Ted Kennedy. One of the girl says I guess she's coming back for it. We should probably wait for her someone else says. She better not make us miss our Fareed. So, the girls sit and wait for their comeback. Meanwhile. Joey Garden is in the kitchen tidying-up. He's Ted's cousin and the Guy who organized tonight's party. He's scrubbing dishes or whatever. When one of the guys Bersin as Senator Kennedy? Outside. To see you. Joey steps outside and finds Ted sprawled in the backseat of rented Plymouth. His clothes are soaked. His hair is a mass. But when he speaks his voice is calm, he says eat better get Paul. So Paul. Markham is one of Ted's sailing buddies and one of the guys who was at the party but in past life, he was a US attorney here in Massachusetts. So like the state's chief law enforcement, officer? One Paul comes out they'll climb into the car. He says Ted what do you want? Says there's been a terrible accident. My Car's gone off the bridge down by the beach and Mary Jo is in it. Ted Keeps talking, but Joey's already sprung into action. He's scrambles into the driver's seat and jams the car into gear. There's only one thought running through his head as he races towards the bridge. Oh Dear God please let her alive. The dossier is a new documentary podcast from investigative journalist Don Sikorsky where Don explains for the final time who killed hip hop superstar biggie smalls, and why the LAPD covered it up. This ground breaking story spans twenty years inside the underbelly of crime and dark forces of the LAPD that used power and influence to hide the evidence and facts that LAPD officers orchestrated biggies, murder FBI agent Phil Carson the only agent to investigate the murder is talking on the record for the first time. The dossier is available on apple podcasts or anywhere. You typically listen to podcasts new episodes every Thursday through mid November. I'm Lindsey Graham the host of wondrous show. American scandal, we bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history John D. Rockefeller was a titan of oil. He built an empire with bribes, ruthless acquisitions, and even espionage yet he wasn't invincible subscribed to American scandal on Apple podcasts spotify or listen ad free in the wandry. APP. From wandering I'm Marisha Skimmer Williams and I'm Brooks Efren and this is even the rich in our last episode Senator Ted Kennedy the youngest son of the Kennedy Family Dynasty came to Martha's Vineyard to sail his boat in a regatta, and then each drove his car off a bridge head managed to escape but he left a woman trapped inside now ted's in a pickle. Yelm this is episode two dazed and confused. After tide comes to cousin Joey and his lawyer friend Paul confessing there's trapped woman in his car they race to the pond Joey's car makes a sharp turn and slowly crosses the bridge. Ted Points out the right window at his car upside down and completely submerged in the middle of Pond Joey's probably thinking Holy Shit. That's what I was thinking. He swings the car around. So the headlight shinedown over the water then he and Paul climb out stripped down and jump in while Ted Stays on the bridge to keep watch. The, water's cold and the strong tidal current immediately drags Joey under tosses around he reaches out and grabs something on the underside of the car and hold on for dear life fighting to keep his head above the water. He feels the side of the car and slides his feet down using his toast to try and find a door handle but the current keeps spitting him back out into the pond. So, Joey tries another approach he swims to the front of the car and finds an opening. It's big enough for him to squeeze through. He gropes around blindly can here Ted yelling from the bridge can you see her? Is She in there but joey can't feel anything except water that and his lungs begging for so he swims to the surface and comes up gasping he looks over and sees Ted lying on the bridge he's Wailing to the Heavens Oh my God what am I going to do what am I going to do? Joey realizes Ted's no use. So he takes a deep breath and dives back in. This time by holding onto the side of the car, he's able to find a door handle and he yanks on it hard. At doesn't budge. He puts his knee against the body of the car and polls. Still No luck and before he can try a third time, the current grabs him and hurls him away. Joey is a fighter, but even the best fighters no when they're outmatched and Joey is no match for Pooja pond. I still can't believe this is all happening in a pond like you hear pond and you think like nature's equivalent of a Kiddie pool or something Ted's got to be thinking Christ my luck sucks you're not far off. When Joey gets back to their bridge Ted's lying there muttering just can't believe this happened. Well Joey finally says what the Hell did happen that says he doesn't remember much. It's Allah Blur. The car went off the bridge. He remembers water filling up to his chest and the next thing he knew he was breaking through the top of the water. He knows he tried to dive back to the car to get Mary Jo out and that's about all. He can remember about what happened before he walked back to the cottage. After hearing Ted Story Joey sure of one thing. We have to report the accident. Tetris call his lawyers and the police like now. But Ted, well, he's got other ideas. He Starts Pitching Joey and Paul on an alternate series of events. What if they say Mary Joe was driving and she dropped Ted back cottage then continued onto the ferry took a wrong turn and went off the bridge by herself. Ted. Continues with a scenario. What if Joey takes him back to the cottage right now maybe people will think he's been there all along then Ted return to his hotel on the vineyard and pretend like you know part of me accident whatsoever leaving joey to discover the car and reported to the Police and to think for all these years the Kennedys thought Ted was useless I. Guess he just wasn't using his talent for covering bribes or he's just useless. Yeah. Joey is shocked by how quickly his cousin is able to whip up a cover story. He tells Ted his idea is way too risky. Witnesses might have already seen or heard the three of them on the bridge plus no one's even sure Mary Jo knew how to drive. We know Ted can't. seriously. Joey also reminds Ted that Paul is a lawyer. If he makes a false report to the police, he'll be disbarred. So yeah that plan is out that's going to have to clean up this mess himself and he's not happy about it. You know it just occurred to me why at Joey, in polar still naked. Okay no they got us when they got out of the water and now fully clothed they pile into the car and head for the ferry landing even though it's two in the morning and the ferry stop running hours ago they figure maybe they'll find someone hanging around who can help them get back to the vineyard, which is across the channel. As they drive Joey keeps nagging Ted trying to get it through his thick skull how important it is that he go to the police but Ted just sits there sulking when they pull up at the deserted ferry landing, they can see the ferry boat docked on the vineyard side one, hundred, fifty yards across the channel. Joey starts nagging him some more you gotta go to the police Ted you have to I mean if that girl didn't get out, she's probably gone if she did she's probably already at the police station reporting you for leaving her there but Ted's had it. He snaps all right. I'm tired of listening to you. I'll take care of it. You go back to the cottage talk to the girls try not to upset them. He throws open the car door takes three steps towards the pier and dives into the water. Joey watches speechless Ted starts swimming across the channel toward the vineyard but there's nothing he can do except go back to the cottage and talk to the girls. It's two thirty. AM when they get back amid cottage is as dark as the inside of a mailbox. Have you ever been inside of Mailbox? Yes. Of course are you the one that's stealing my mail? Like my The girls are spread around the cottage curled up on couches and chairs sleeping. Apparently, they got tired of waiting for someone to drive them to the ferry a ferry they've missed by now anyway. Joey. flicks on the light and wakes everyone up. Then he corrals the woman into one of the bedrooms where a picture of them sitting on the edge of the bed and staring up at him like he's a camp counselor about to tell a ghost story, it was a dark and stormy night and no one's wearing any pan. Joey tells them different tale. He says that Ted was down at the ferry landing swing around and many decided swim back to the vineyard because the last ferry had left where's Mary Jo, one of the women asked issue coming back. Joey tries to act casual he goes. I, assume Mary Jo made the ferry and then he clams up like a clam clever. So Do they believe him. Yeah I mean why wouldn't they enjoy figures? It's better to keep them in the dark until Ted's had a chance to talk to the police, which is what he assumes. Ted. Is doing little does he know? Assumed wrong. That's not going to the police. When he reaches the vineyard, he stumbles up a side street and goes back to his hotel, the Shire town in. In his room, he changes out of his wet clothes showers and puts on a dress shirt blazer and slacks. Then Ted leaves his room and strolls into the hotel's courtyard where he runs into the hotel manager. The manager asked Ted if he needs any help at first, ted says no but then he complains about loud noises coming from a room next door he asked the manager what time it is, and the manager says to twenty five Am. Head nods or says, thank you or whatever, and then he goes back to his room. Oh, my God he's trying to give himself an alibi yet seems like it back in his room had curls up in his bed and goes to sleep. By seven a m he showered and shaved he puts on his boating close remember it's still regata weekend right a fancy sailing event with yachts and Snobs Yup and Ted's doing what he would on any other regata weekend I. He goes downstairs and ask the desk clerk to reserve him copies of the Boston Globe and the New York Times then he borrows a dime so we can make a call the ends payphone. Okay. So before we go any further I, just want to recap the crazy past eight hours Ted has been through. He drove his car off a bridge. He almost drowned and he left Mary Jo inside the car under the water. Now she's either dead or on our way to the police either outcome Ted's in a tiny bit of your absolutely fucked trouble. So who do you think he calls? Does he call Saul? Nice gas but no. Ted's first call is to his dead brother's widow Jackie Kennedy. Well she's Jackie Onassis. Now he reaches her in Greece where she's living with her new husband we don't know what Ted tells her but we do know that at the end of the call Jackie agrees to fly to Hyannis Port to be with the family. Damn. Jackie's a ride or die yeah. Ted's next call is to a woman named Helga Wagner. She's a beautiful stewardess turn Jet Center I. Think the Modern Word as flight attendant. True. But they still call them stewardesses back then okay. The important thing is that she knows how to fasten seat belt put an oxygen mask on someone's head and use a seat cushion as a life preserver Oh and she also just so happens to be Ted's latest girlfriend. Ted Matter when he was flying around campaigning for Bobby, Helga knows people and Ted wants the phone number for one of them. A guy named Steve Smith Steve jack-of-all-trades. He's a political strategist and he manages the Kennedy Family Fortune but his real talent is for making big problems go away but Helga can't find his number. So Ted hangs up. And finally, the third and last call he makes is to his wife Joan. I was wondering where Joan was. She's at home in Virginia six weeks pregnant. She's miscarried once before and her doctor is given her strict orders to stay calm and avoid stress. When she picks up, he says something like there's been an accident a terrible terrible accident a girl drowned Jones, and there was nothing I could do I swear it she says don't worry I. Believe you when you say it was an accident and he says, I, knew you would I can always count on you. That's according to a book by J, Randy Tara Borelli and before they hang up Jones says she's GonNa fly up to Hyannis port. ACE APP standby. Remand. Give him to arms to clean to that song is ridiculous yet. It's around eight hundred M. Ted goes back about his morning like it's any other day vacation land he bumps into the winning skipper from yesterday's regatta, and before long they're out on the porch with a couple of other sailing types smiling and laughing and Yukking it up. If. You were there watching you'd never guess anything was wrong. But little does he know the police have already found his car on? Oh. Yes. 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As you know, I'll be going towards colder weather in a couple of months and so they have a north face jacket that's thirty five percent off retail and I I mean I have to get it right I of course you do. You guys can get the styles you love at a fraction of the price. Also, you'll look good and feel good with threat up and for listeners of our show. Here's an exclusive offer just for you get an extra thirty percent off your first order at threat up dot com slash rich. That's T. H. R. E. D. UP DOT COM slash rich for thirty percent off your first order. One more time. That's the read up dot com slash rich for an extra thirty percent off today terms apply. It's around eight in the morning on Saturday July nineteenth, nineteen, sixty, nine and Joey Gorgan. Paul. Markham are writing the ferry from chappaquiddick over to the vineyard they're going to look for Ted they figure he went to the police the night before told them everything and with any luck will be hiding out in his hotel room. So imagine their surprise when they walk up to the Shire town in and see Ted out front gabbing like he's at some political fundraiser. Always like Shit. He didn't report it and boy is he pissed Ted said he was handling it. He walks up to him without so much as a hello and says, I'd like to see you right now in your room Ted's like sure. When they get up to his room, head slumps on the bed while Joey paces around Paul. Tracy. Ease the tension. What happened yes. I didn't report it. Ted says. According to the book Chappaquiddick Joey explodes what the fuck is going on. You were supposed to report the fucking accident. Ted says he felt Joey was going to handle it because that's what Joe is always done but Ted said he was handling it. Yeah. That's what Joey remembers to and the longer no one does anything the worse it'll get. So he says where reporting the accident right now. Ted's lake fine but I'm going to say Mary Jo was driving. Oh God not this again I know Joey says you can't say that you can be placed at the scene. Yeah. I Joey M Paul. But isn't ready to tell the truth he wants to make a phone call downstairs and since his family jobs like, okay. One phone call but JOE doesn't want anyone to over here ted talking. So he suggests they go back to the ferry landing at chappaquiddick where there's a payphone. And so back, they go across the channel where Ted goes into the ferry house and uses a payphone to call his administrative aide heads looking for someone to take his side but his aid is like no like Joey. Tend to go to the cops. Ted Hangs up and looks around at the ferry landing. It's a normal summer morning people are riding bikes and taking walks maybe no one even found the car. That's when a local who's just gotten off the ferry walks over senator. He says, do you know there was a girl found dead in your car roll I guess the cats out of the bag ted's like speechless. He's not sure what to say the man offers him a ride over to the scene of the accident, but Ted wants to stay put. A couple of minutes later, two boats float across the channel heading towards the scene of the accident. The first is carrying a tow truck. The second is carrying a hearse busted. Now Joe is practically hissing at Ted get your ass over to the vineyard and report this. Now finally pedigrees, he can't keep pretending like nothing happened in hoping it'll all go away but he still hasn't decided what exactly he's going to say, okay. Here's a wild idea. How about the truth? I know right but remember he's a Kennedy true right now he's the only boy his parents have left. He was like the clown of the family he was perfectly happy sitting on the sidelines letting his brother's shine and be all famous in their politician Est. but now he's expected to follow in their perfect footsteps and carry on this insane Kennedy Legacy They WanNa put them up for president he's supposed to be this Model of good behavior and instead he's now crashed a car left a woman inside and then fled the scene. Obviously, the press are going to destroy him and therefore his family name not to mention the fact that his dad is bedridden. If he finds out about this, it could end up killing him but it's the right thing to do. Oh, I know except he's a politician and that's not their strong suit point. Ten and Paul had back across the channel together remember Paula lawyer and he might need him. But Joey stays behind. He's got some unfinished business to take care of on. Chappaquiddick. The boiler room girls there are still at the cottage as Joey approaches the house she sees them out on the road they must have figured known was coming for them and decided to walk to the ferry. Joey cruises up and tells them to get in his car. He takes them back to the cottage and tells them what happened. Ted Drove his car off a bridge into the water and they can't find Mary Jo. Everyone knows tight is a very public senator on who might be running for president. The girls figure this can't be good. One says, can't we have someone else driving the car? Another says, if you are a real friend, you'd say you driving the car. That's crazy. I'm absolving you. Now if I ever commit a crime, I have zero expectations that you'll take offering. Well. Thank you. But I do expect you to break me out of prison. Well. Yeah. That's what friends are for starting up singing. Before. He'll take the girls. So the ferry Joey, insist they help him throughout every bottle potato chip pretzel and Cigarette Butt from last night's Party. He wants the place SPIC and span so that if the police come by check it out, it looks like the site of the most team party ever in fact, it looks like there wasn't a party at all. At nine, forty, five that morning Ted Kennedy walks into the to room police station on Martha's Vineyard and tells the starstruck officer on duty that he needs to make a phone call. The officers shows him into the office and closes the door. There's one more person Ted needs to speak to before he's ready to tell the cops what happened last night actually two people, Joe and Gwen Quebec me Mary Jo's parents. He takes a deep breath and dials that CAPAC niece one answers and when Ted introduces himself, he can hear her tone change suddenly she sounds almost giddy. Ted's got to no. This is one of the curses of being Kennedy. Every regular person you meet is a little in off you which makes it kind of hard to deliver tough news, but Ted plows ahead. He tells Gwen that her daughter was in a car accident. Gwen goes quiet for a second then she asks. was she killed? Ted Hesitates he says, yes, I'm sorry. Through the receiver, he can hear Gwen let out an awful wail. Ted Can't bring himself to tell her that he was the one driving. Man That's awful. Yeah. Ted's trying to collect himself when the police woman comes in and tells him the police chiefs on the line for him. He picks up the phone. Hello Ted the man on the other end says, this is Jim Arena chief of Police Jim. Marina. was that police chief who was first on the scene of the accident the guy who borrowed the bathing trunks, right? Yeah I love that guy. He's been at the scene for the past hour as they towed the car out of the water. He says the Ted I'm over here on Chappaquiddick, and I have some bad news. There's been a tragedy your car was in an accident and a young lady is dead. I know todd says, do you need to speak to me sure arenas? Do you WANNA come over here to the scene and Ted says. I'd prefer for you to come over here and arenas shore. When he gets to the station, he's still wearing the wet bathing suit. He borrowed to dive into the pond. Can Somebody please get that poor guy at towel? When arena comes into his office he finds Ted sitting behind his desk relaxing in his chair. Arena says hello. Senator I'm Jim Marina Ted gives him a broad smile and says Hello Jim and then perhaps realizing how weird it looks he gets up and let's arena have his desk back. Then Ted comes straight out with it. He tells arena that he was the one driving. Arena is totally taken aback. He thought the woman was alone his theory was that she was out joyriding and Kennedy's car, but they still don't know who she is. The only piece of evidence found was an ID card with the name Rosemary Keough. Serena assumes that girl who's dead he has said Pinos Rosemary's contact info so he can notify her next of kin. Ted gives him a confused look. The girl in the car isn't Rosemary. It's Mary Jo Kopechne me, and I've already notified our parents and arenas like CAPAC NI. How do you spell that? Ted. Just. Shrugs. Lawyer. Paul Chimes in and says, they can figure out how to spell it later. Right now they've got bigger clams to bake. Okay. So what happens next is really weird there's no other word for it. Arena stops acting like his job is to uphold the law and starts acting like his job is to protect Ted Kennedy he supposed to get a statement from Ted Right Instead arena brings him to an empty corner of the station to work on a statement with his lawyer and then Ted asked arena to go back to Chappaquiddick to look after his car Ted doesn't want being towed through the center of Tom like public exhibit arenas like shore anything to help Senator I'll go right away. He doesn't even change out of his bathing suit. I, think it's safe to say that bathing suit has agreed. One arena return to the police station and our leader. There's a mob of townspeople in journalists outside waiting for him. The story has gotten out arena asked him to wait and hurries inside. He finds Ted in the corner where he left him pacing back and forth dictating his statement Paul. It basically says Ted was driving the car and he didn't report the accident for ten hours because he was exhausted in a state of shock. He admits Mary Jo Kopechne was in the car with him and he tried to save her butt because he doesn't know how to spell her last name. Just calls her Miss Mary Dash Dash I mean I'm not sure I know how to spell her name either right but Mary Jo was his brother's right hand woman I just thought that was weird. But what's important is what he leaves out he never mentioned the party or the drinks or the girls. And then there's this when I fully realized what had happened this morning Ted rights I immediately contacted the police. Wow. Sounds like a case of liar liar pants on fire. When arenas done reading tasks him for favor he wants arena to hold off on releasing the statement until he can run it by the Kennedy. Family's team of lawyers arena agrees and he does Ted yet another favor he arranges a private jet to fly Ted and Paul. Off The vineyard as quickly as possible. Okay. So let me just get straight. Ted Crashes Car kills a woman waits hours before reporting it, and then when he does the police chief just lets him go off in the corner and write a statement for an hour and then he gets him a fancy jet to fly home. Yup. That's pretty much. Wow Damn. Rich people get away with everything. Truly. By mid afternoon Ted is on a Cessna five-seater heading to the Kennedy family compound on. Hyannis port he watches out the window as the island gets smaller and smaller below him. He can just make out his car beach like a whale and the Bank of pooja pond. He leans forward and says the pilot. Error goes the presidency. He's not so dumb after all. I'm Lindsey Graham the host of one show American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our new series we look at a monopoly that defined modern America John D. Rockefeller was a titan of oil. He built an empire with bribes, ruthless acquisitions, and even espionage yet he wasn't invincible Rockefeller would face off against a woman named IDA who fought to expose Rockefeller through the power of journalism find out how subscribed to American scandal on Apple podcasts spotify or listen ad free in the wandering APP. Today pizza powers are one hundred, billion dollar global industry. But when the Carney brothers opened the very first pizza hut in nineteen, fifty eight, it was still practically unheard of outside major US cities since then the passion for pies has grown like crazy fueling a competitor named domino's and taking these one time mom and pop joints global I'm David Brown. But of wondering show business wars, we go deep into some of the biggest corporate rivalries of all time and in our latest mouth-watering series, we serve up the battle for dough between Pizza Hut and Domino's listen on apple podcasts spotify or check us out ad free by joining one re plus in the wander he APP. It's four in the afternoon on July nineteenth. Nineteen sixty-nine and Ted pulls up in front of the Kennedy Family Compound in Hyannis Port. He feels this sense of total relief wash over him as he walks through the front door he's out of the glare of a police investigation back on home turf. Ted Steps into the giant living room and well, there's a bunch of guys in there and they all turn and stare at him. Okay. So remember Steve Smith Fixer. Whose number Ted was trying to get from his mistress yeah Helga the flight attendant. Yeah. Well, somehow Steve found out about the accident and summoned the old boy Kennedy Network to make Ted Screw up doesn't destroy his future. It's like this who's who of political players? There's Robert, McNamara former defense secretary, Ted Sorensen JFK speechwriter, and now they're helping Ted out of a pickle out. How the mighty have fallen seriously. There are fifteen players here at the Kennedy compound. They're all loyal to the family and they're all united in wanting to make sure doesn't get charged with manslaughter. Even, an indictment could kill whatever chance he has left a run for president they're in damage control mode and they're masters at it. A guy named Burke Marshall speaks I, he's in his late forties with Horn rimmed glasses and aside part he's the family lawyer and always wears a suit Nati-. He's also one of the smartest men in the room. This is the guy who helped craft the civil rights act and banned segregation across the country bobby. Kennedy one said Burke Marshall has the world's best judgment and in Berks judgment Ted needs to stop talking he tells them not to answer any questions about the accident not from the press not from the police now from anyone, and then he picks up the phone and calls the Kennedy family doctor and asked him to come to Hyannis port a house call Tam to be rich. On the doctor arrives he asked head to tell him what happened. Description is still full of gaps. He can't remember anything from the time the car hit the water until he came up for air he was so shocked by it all it took him until the next morning to go to the cops. The doctor gives Ted a physical exam and he finds a half inch scrape over Ted's ear an ugly bruise and top of his head diagnosis. He has a mild concussion. When the Kennedys spin doctors here this they're thrilled suddenly Ted's claim that he was too shock to report the accident looks medically valid. Now it's onto the next stop of operation clean up the mess they need to control the narrative, the spin-doctors no the press is going to find out about this thing. So they've got to make sure that the only version of events the press here is is the one they give them. Ted, says, that's going to be a little tricky since he already. gave the local police chief, a written statement. The spin doctors are pissed all eyes turned Paul he was acting Ted's lawyer. How could he let? Ted Right. A statement without consulting them. He should have known better. They tell Paul to call chief arena immediately toughened loyally with him. Tell him that under no circumstances whatsoever should he let anyone see that statement period? At. The same time Paul is headed for the phone chief arenas leaving his office reporters have been circling around outside the station all afternoon they want information and arena decides he can't wait any longer. He steps into the hall and calls the press together. Then he clears his throat and says. Senator Kennedy has given me the following statement. And then he reads the whole thing. I'll paraphrase. I was driving the car and took a wrong turn and ended up on a bridge. The car went off the side and into the water. There was one person with me Miss Mary who attempted to save I was unsuccessful I was in a state of shock but I went to the police as soon as I could sincerely yours. Ted Kennedy. He seriously say exile exo. Okay. That was part of the paraphrasing. Anyway the reporters are furiously taking notes while he reads and when he's done, they asked him to read it a second time so they can get it all down. Okay, you you don't need to paraphrase ago. Okay. Fine. When the second reading is done, they ask him to read it a third time. My God. I guess they didn't have tape recorders then wrote really slowly. Anyway while he's reading, he hears a phone ring he excuses himself and goes back to his office to answer it. It's Paul. Who tells arena in his toughest most loyally voice You, know that statement we wrote earlier today do not release it to the press or anyone borough. Arena. I'm sorry Mr Markham. It's already done and Paul is Lake Osha. Yeah, and he's pissed arena tries to defend himself. What else was he supposed to do people were beating down his door. Too late though calls already hung up. Arena goes back out to face the reporters there bursting with questions. They WanNa know if ted was at fault was he drinking or negligent in some way? Now it's arenas turn to train control the narrative he says, there's no proof of Senator Kennedy's faulty operation of the vehicle. I've got to repeat again and say, emphatically, there is no negligence involved in this accident. A reporter shouts aw, come on chief Ted Kennedy drove a car off a bridge that was evidence of negligence. Wasn't it? Now Rina's getting frustrated I mean the COP. He says, what do you mean off? Come on? What's the matter with you guys but the reporters keep firing questions at him. Why did the senator wait to report the accident? What was his relationship with Mary Joe? Why did he take ten hours to report the accident fire? You still wearing a bathing suit? Okay, he's not wearing a suit anymore. Let's see wearing. Well, that's not the point. Okay. The point is arena doesn't answer any of them. Instead, he leaves the medical examiner to deal with reporters and S- into his office. Back. At Hyannis Port Paul Markham. The lawyer is doing his own slinging. He has to tell the Kennedy machine. He was too late to control the first damage. The police chief already released the statement. The spin-doctors immediately go into overdrive. What were they in before Oh just regular Dr. Now that the statement is out, they know reporters are going to be knocking on the doors of anyone who's even remotely connected to this thing they need to get to Mary Jo's parents. So they dispatch an aide to visit the CAPAC knees at their home in new? Jersey. But the guy is too late reporters have already been to the House and talked to both of Mary Jo's parents Glennon Joe and it's bad joe told them. He was upset. By the lack of detail from the Kennedy side he says the senator called them but didn't really explain anything. Gwen tells them. She heard Ted was with Mary Jo at the time of the accident but Ted didn't say anything about that. When he called her, how could he leave out such a big detail and then joe drops another bomb. He tells reporters that Mary Jo told them. She was going to a party with Ted the night she died. The reporters can't believe what they're hearing. There is nothing about any party in the statement chief arena read what else did Senator Kennedy Leave Out How about the fact that he was downing rum and Coke Allnight Yup? He forgot to mention that to shocker. One of the reporters who interviewed Mary Jo's parents 'cause Ted's press secretary and s all sorts of questions about the party like who organized it who was there? No comment is the only comment he gets. Then the press secretary hangs up and calls Hyannis port after a quick check with the spin-doctors the secretary gets back on the phone with a reporter and starts singing a different tune this time he tells the reporter. Yes, there was. A party on Chappaquiddick that night but he says Ted only made a brief appearance and then for good measure to make sure he covers his basis he says, Ted's wife Joan plan to be there which of course wasn't true because Joan was pregnant and on bed rest. So why did he say it? I'm assuming because the boiler room girls were all there and they don't want to look like Ted was trying to score or something. Meanwhile back at Hyannis Port, the Kennedy spin machine tries to distract the press with a shiny new object. They get bobby's widow Ethel to issue a statement about Mary Jo. ATHOL says she was a sweet wonderful girl talks about how much bobby valued her when she worked on his campaign. What she doesn't say anything about is the accident or that her brother-in-law Ted was involved the press seize on that along with a whole host of details that don't seem to line up. They think the Kennedys are being cagey about details. Some of them start to wonder if this is a cover up which provokes even more questions why isn't Ted? Talking is China hide something. What was his relationship with Mary Jo Anyway this is the Kennedy's worst nightmare. The situation is spinning out of control. The spin doctors are the brightest political operatives of their generation, but they can't seem to put a lid on the story and they're pretty sure it's going to be all over the papers tomorrow. So someone's gotTa Tell Joe Kennedy he's family. Patriarch, and he's upstairs in his bed where he's been confined for eight years pretty much. Since he had a stroke, he needs to know a tornado is about to hit the Kennedy family. So as night falls on Hyannis port. Ted trudges up the stairs to his father's bedroom. Joe Looks even worse than the last time Ted saw him but it's clear. His mind is still sharp according to the book last Lion Ted sits down at Joe side and says. Dad I'm in some trouble Joe's eyes slowly open. Ted's not sure what to say next. He's spent his whole life trying to live up to his dad's expectations and make the old man. Proud. But in the past twenty, four hours he screwed up royally like the kind of fuck up that may not be fixable and he's about to bring shame to the family name. There's been an accident Ted says, and you're going to hear all sorts of things about me from now on. Terrible things. Joe Class Ted's hand and presses it to his chest. I've done the best. I can Ted says. Joe Closes his eyes and turns his face to the wall. After a moment. Tied leaves the room. You know I almost feel bad for him but I feel way worse for Mary Jo and her family. Yeah. Well, that's interesting because Mary Jo's parents are GonNa go through their own mixed emotions. So we'll Ted's wife Joan? Because this whole thing is about to go all sorts of crazy. Plumbing s that's on the next episode what gave it away though dramatic ending. A hate you. This is the second episode in our three part series chappaquiddick. If you like our show, please give us a five star rating and review and be sure to tell your friends. Subscribe on Apple, podcasts spotify the wonder we APP or wherever you're listening right now join wondering plus in the wondering APP to listen free. In the episode notes, you'll find links offers from our sponsors. Please support them another way to support us is to answer a short survey at wondering dot com slash survey. We use many sources when researching our stories including vanity fair and town and country, but we especially recommend the books last lion by the team at the Boston Globe Chappaquidick by Leo. Damore. And Jackie Ethel Joan Women of camelot by J Randy Tara Borelli I'm Marie skidmore Williams and I'm Brooks Schifrin Graham Flash no wrote this episode Loredana. PALIVODA is our editor our producer is Caleb Kissinger sound design by James Morgan. Production Assistance by Sergio and Rica's are executive producers are Stephanie Jen's Marshal Louis and her non Lopez for wondering. After years of chronic back pain, Philip Mayfield discovered spinal surgeon Dr Christopher and his glowing reviews the promise to fix you words. The Philip desperately wanted to hear. But after his surgery, he woke up excruciating pain and couldn't feel his legs he thought to himself. What did he do to me while he didn't know it yet he'd never walk again and Mayfield was one of the lucky ones Dr Death is a true story about our health care system a system we trust with our lives. But as you'll see, sometimes it isn't us that the system is built to protect listen to Dr Death on Apple podcasts, spotify stitcher or wherever you're listening right now.

Joe Class Ted Ted Senator Ted Kennedy Mary Jo Chappaquiddick Joey Paul Chimes Chappaquiddick Mary Joe Ted Points Hyannis Port Mary Jo Kopechne Ted trudges Ted Right Ted Matter Ted Steps Ted Sorensen senator COP Jim Marina Ted
S1 E2  Front Lines of Partisanship with Dr. Charles Wheelan and Unite America

The Purple Principle

23:18 min | 7 months ago

S1 E2 Front Lines of Partisanship with Dr. Charles Wheelan and Unite America

"Does your world sound like this, too much of the time were extreme. They call it polarizing point right now. Is Not always found. Advert of. Partisanship. Problems solved. We don't talk about politics. It does and you're not exactly fun of that. Then you've come to the right podcast. This is Robert Peas Creator and producer of the purple principle, a podcast for independent minded Americans about polarization in us, politics, society, and just playing daily life. Our guest today Charles Waylon has been working to bridge the partisan divide in this country for nearly thirty years as a writer, teacher, organizer and political candidate as well as founder and Co Chair of United America. This bipartisan group is currently working to elect moderate candidates from both the Republican Democratic Parties in the twenty twenty elections. One of the scary things going on here is you've got a lot of different forces at work. Anyone who's been watching TV more than fifteen years knows that's new. The rise television news where you pick your ideology the rise of social media. Where not only are you hearing the Echo Chamber? But think about something like gerrymandering now big data allows us to Gerrymander better than we use it, which means more safe seats, which means the primaries matter more. They're more expensive races. Who Do you get the money from the people who are the most extreme? Every single force that is going on is pushing US apart. We hear an awful lot in this country about that's verse Republicans read verse, Blue Liberal Versus Conservative, but not much about people and groups trying to bridge the divide reporter. Emily Christianity and I sat down with Dr Liana Dartmouth College where he currently teaches public policy. So I guess we can start from the beginning if you just wanted to walk us through how your interest in. Politics, in specifically independent politics I started after Dartmouth I traveled around. The world, wrote articles for the Valley News which is our local newspaper and realized I that my interest was policy when I got back from traveling. I sought out a political job, but only because that's where policy happens, and I became a speechwriter for Maine Governor John mckernan. He was what I would describe as a New England Republican. The breed that's more or less been hunted to extinction. Hunted to extinction sounds like a bit of exaggeration, but beginning in the nineteen nineties, moderate Republicans in New England and throughout the country were often tagged with the term Rhino as a Republican in name only then they were hunted from the Republican right during primary season, and the democratic, left during general elections if they survived the primary. We asked Emily, Chris, Shetty and fellow reporter Mike Valeri to research their demise. Okay Michael. Let's try to figure out what happened here. How many moderate New England Republicans held Senate seats when Charlie Whelan says the Rhino Hunt began in the late nineteen eighty s looks like about five including Lowell, Weicker of Watergate fame and Connecticut who lost re election that year and Jim Jeffords Vermont election, but becomes an independent in two thousand one so by two thousand, and we were down to three. The Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island Loses in two thousand and six and. And Johnston a new of New Hampshire in two thousand eight job Greg of new. Hampshire also retires in two thousand ten, as does Olympia Snowe of Maine. In two thousand twelve hyper partisanship in the Senate as the reason today in two thousand twenty. Just one minute left. Susan Collins from. Maine who may not win reelection so nearing extinction, we went from five moderate New England Republicans to one or even none in three decades enough to change the balance in the Republican Caucus. Over the same period, our guest Charles Leland went through changes of his own remember. He started out as a Republican speechwriter. In one, thousand, nine, hundred nine, then served as an economist magazine correspondent and got his PhD in public policy, then in two thousand and eight, he seized on a new opportunity. I was teaching policy at the University of Chicago is still very engaged policy. When Barack Obama was elected, he appointed Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff, and that opened up a congressional seat. It was my congressional seat. It was the depths of the financial crisis two thousand eight. and. I decided to somebody who cares about policy. Who's written about economics for lay audiences who is living through the worst financial disaster? Since the Great Depression I should run for Congress at that point. The Republican Party had moved far far away from what I remember in Maine Iran in the. Primary and run Charlie did though you might say that. He swam for that Congressional seat as well in this campaign ad. Leland is floating in a tank of water while delivering this campaign pitch. Water. That's where a lot of us are financially. The Bush administration and greed on Wall Street. But I can do something about it I'm expert economics. Not a professional auditions together. will be like breath of fresh air and congress. Who I'm Charlie Whelan and I approve this message. The campaign itself did not go so swimmingly. Leland ended up finishing sixth in that Democratic primary with seven percent of the vote. We asked why he thinks his candidacy failed to stay afloat. My wife was on her way to becoming a charter school teacher. I can only tell you that running in a Democratic primary when you're have any connection to a charter, school is not very good and that by the way there's only one thing that would've sunk Mike as he as soon as I said, and by the way we need to reform social security and we need to curtail. Medicare spending I mean. I would have been shot repeatedly. They would have been firing. Firing at the corpse, and was there any particular event or moment during the campaign? When things kind of hit the wall, there was a moment i. do remember going to the endorsement session that was run by one or both of the major teacher unions. The question I do remember was. How do you feel about performance based pay I actually teach education policy here I think it's a blunt instrument, but under some circumstances. If you change the incentives to change the outcome so I said you know I think if he use it carefully, it could be an important tool that is not what the teachers unions wanted to here, and there was just a resounding silence. You imagine being in an endorsement session where you still have ten minutes to go, and people have no interest in asking additional questions because you're like okay well like. Should I have the pastries? What do we do now? I'm done, you know I'm done. So how much of an ideological difference do you think there was between your first job for Publican governor and your democratic candidacy for Congress almost none? That's the I. Don't feel like I've moved very far at all. Certainly on the social issues, there was no major change I feel like the rest of the country moved and left me stranded. So to review former Republican, speechwriter, economist, magazine, reporter and former Democratic candidate for Congress that makes her an interesting take on today's partisan politics. One thing that's going on here is that the primaries are like the tail wagging the dog, and if you can't get out of the primary, you're not GonNa win an election and to win Democratic primary. It seems like you have to pander more and more towards left-leaning views these days right and right-leaning views to win Republican permanent, and of course, the more you have gerrymandering. The safer these seats. What people fail to realize is if it's a safe seat, the only challenges in the primary, so if you are a Democrat in a safe blue seat, you're not safe. You're safe from Republicans. What you're not safe from a challenge from your left flank and same is true in a red district, for Republican, which means if you WANNA protect yourself. Don't do anything cooperative in Congress. Because then you'll get some wing. Not Coming in saying. Oh, he said he would never raise revenue from any source under any circumstances, and he agreed to this increase in the price of fishing permit. Let's get rid of them. To depart just a bit. Let's talk about your time at the Economist magazine. We noticed one media group in US place. The economists as center left another in the UK. Place it as a center right publication. Where would you place the economist I would probably place it nowhere, and the reason is. We've got this crazy linear way of looking at politics in the United States, but politics isn't linear. It's multifaceted and the wonderful thing about the economist is that it does not fit on that spectrum, so it's very liberty focused. It's traditionally to fall to the individual. which you would think. Oh, well, so it's right lanes Republican except their avowedly pro choice, because it flows from that Libertarian leaning perspective, but they endorsed Bill Clinton because they also believe that the government has an important role. In doing the things that make capitalism work better, so it's pro markets. But not pro business, because the difference is pro markets is you want to encourage competition as opposed to protecting vested interests? It is pro-market. Few years after his primary laws, whalen wrote a book called the centrist Manifesto, which proposed at a small number of centrists, independents in the House, or Senate could actually make a huge legislative. Here's real in explaining the manifesto tuna of the two thousand thirteen national book, fair to one from each side. How would you ensure that that caucus half dozen or so senators once they actually came to the Senate stuck together and voted as a body above all else, because once you have issues that are important in this state for re election or this constituent, or whatever once you start to peel off one or two and individual issues, it becomes real easy for the whole thing that just fall apart right first of all. I want to have that problem. I WanNa get to the point where there are six centrist, and they're not agreeing all the time. That would be a victory They're not GONNA agree on every issue, even if they are part of a party and I think honestly part of this strategy would be electing some big see centrists, and also some independent angus king who are in that space, but may not buy into the party I want more people willing to make compromise in the middle, not on every issue, but I think if you send more people with this mindset with this core set of beliefs to the Senate. You're more likely to get that behavior. I can't guarantee that it's going to happen all the time so I am over time. They're waving signs but I. Appreciate your interest in your time. Thank you very much. Wheelin centrist manifesto is not as hypothetical as it sounds. A substantial center actually existed in the Senate as recently as three decades ago. Earlier in this episode Emily Crocetti and Michael Larry documented the near extinction of the moderate New England, Rhino or Republican in name. Only we ask them to do the same for the fate of the southern conservative dino or Democrat in name only. We looked at six northeastern states on our rhino hunt now. Let's compare that to six southeastern states as in Florida the Carolinas Alabama Mississippi Georgia exactly and we're looking for the demise of conservative southern Democrats or dyno's. Twelve Senate seats from those six state looks like seven or held by Senate Democrats one, thousand, nine hundred, but by two thousand, ten, only two, so what happened complicated lots of things, the south shifts a little bit to the right each election, but one Democratic Senator Office Richard. Shelby switches parties after the ninety four Republican Revolution Republicans win both houses, Popular Dino, Sam Nunn or Fritz Holland's retire. Their seats swing like. Like really swing from conservative Democrat to conservative Republican opening that gap in the middle, so many diners left now one just one out of twelve seats, Doug Jones Alabama and he barely won a special election over Roy Moore I, know I know as a tough reelection in twenty twenty, so diners are going the way of rhinos and Rhinos Dino extinction, destroying the center like a completely different Senate in just three decades. We asked Dr Real in to explain the importance of the political center to today's audience of independent minded Americans hoping for more effective government after the two thousand twenty elections I usually use the Senate because the math is easier when I speak to a group say okay. Forty to forty four percent of Americans say they're independent. and. We can quibble over where they actually stand ideologically, so they are saying unequivocally. We do not belong to one party the other that is not an inconsequential statement. Which means that the Senate hundred people, the number of independence should be somewhere between forty and forty four. There are two. One. Is Angus kings a legit independent Bernie Sanders? WHO's left of the Democrats I'm not sure that counts so yes, something is not tracking. If you imagine a world because the Senate is so closely divided. Where instead of one legit independent? There are five. In which case the Senate now looks like say forty, eight, five, forty seven. And now the institutional factors were differently, which is to say those five, because they're in the middle, get to pick the majority leader, and they can actually negotiate with both sides. What's the main reason that there is currently only one independent senator out of one hundred? A lot of what's going on this partisanship is negative partisanship, my party's fine, but there there are horrible. As soon as an independent steps in because we don't have runoffs or ranked choice voting the fear is well if I, support that independence, I might inadvertently elect the person I hate even more. In which case the third party is attributed to being the spoiler. The spoiler effect means is very hard for independence to get much traction out of the box and the three way race people are very the Ralph, Nader in Florida in two thousand, just a small number of people voted for him, and by all accounts that tip the state from Gordon Bush, and therefore tip the election. People are very wary of that rightfully so back to your point about trying to help moderates twenty twenty. For example in a deep, red or blue state, would your organization be considered nonpartisan enough to actively support a moderate in a primary or would that be viewed with concern, so we have a fund that is investing in two prongs. One is process reforms ranked choice voting anti gerrymandering. And we pick those very carefully to make sure that the reforms aren't considered to be red or blue, our second prong supporting candidates, and we are supporting both Democrats in Democratic primaries and moderate Republicans in Republican primaries and paying the studios, even to the number of races nature of races, so that people don't look at us as closet, reds or closet blues. It sounds like a tough line. It's a terribly divided because one of the things that characterizes this climate is if i. don't know what you are. I, just assume you're Miami. Do you think that like social media? Technology plays into people having a perception of a more simplified version of what government actually is when I. Log Onto facebook and listen to all the people believe the same thing. I do I mean we're all geniuses so I think that that kind of Echo Chambers quite dangerous. One thing that probably gets too little attention is there's been profound residential sorting in the in the country used to be for all kinds of reasons, nineteen, forty, nine, hundred fifty. People were in closer proximity to others who were more socioeconomically diverse, so we pay a lot of attention rightfully to racial and ethnic diversity. We've kind of forgotten the socio economic peace or we obviously live in a very polarized environment. Is it more difficult teaching students at this partisan time? I think it can be I. There are tools you can use I think to overcome it. One is just to play devil's advocate to frame issues in a way where my beliefs are agnostic. I use the word defensible odd which is to say, here's a view that's defensible I may or may not agree with it, but it's not inconsistent with logic or facts or data, so I think being pro-life isn't an entirely defensible positions thought when I share a policy view, but if you think life begins at conception, then, abortion should be illegal. That's defensible. Will that said it's still kind of a remarkable accomplishment effect spending that many people deny climate change and goes on Europe two year. How are they able to maintain of factually indefensible position? A lot of what's animating the right I think is just a an animus towards the left. And part of it is if they're pro environment, I'm anti vermin I firmly believe that if Al Gore had stood up and said climate change is a hoax Republicans said you lie. It's real. Leland's writing lecturers as well as in United America's moderating efforts. There's much reference to legislative gridlock. Quickly get a grasp on that topic. In a really acute crisis, even in a divided government with one party controlling exchanger, there will tend to be legislative compromise resolution such as with the series of Covid. Nineteen Leaf packages passed this year. But with chronic issues like immigration, reform or gun safety where we haven't had a comprehensive bill. In decades, that legislative chain gets slowed down bipartisanship and there's not enough moderates such as for example, those New England, rhinos or southern conservative Domino's to cross the aisles had pushed the bill to passage through negotiation and compromise. We asked Charles real in about some less factors, contributing gridlock is answer included a reference to one of those extinct rhinos or moderate. Republicans Judd Gregg, former governor and senator from New Hampshire. Briefly considered for a cabinet position in the Obama Administration. That we haven't talked about is. The climate in Washington is different. There is not the spirit of Camaraderie, and it's amazing how these things are connected, so what I've been told. Is that before you had to raise as much money as you do now? Campaigns are so much more expensive. Members of Congress, typically lived in DC which meant that their family socialized. They had a personal relationship. which meant they could argue by day? They just couldn't be as mean to each other. Their spouses knew each other. They knew their dogs. And as that has dissipated, those personal bonds like between Reagan and tip O'Neill between Judd. Gregg and Ted Kennedy Jed Gregg routinely comes back to Dharma. He's very generous with his time. And if you question loved, ask any legislator. Who's your favorite person in the other party? And without a beat Judd Gregg, said Oh ted Kennedy. Love Ted Kennedy. And it was personal, he said. Ted Kennedy's dog used to sit under the Diet is between Judd Gregg and Ted Kennedy and what he's GonNa Ted Kennedy as he was there to legislate, and if we agreed on something, which was not always then, we'd write a bill together. They did no child left behind. The did a whole bunch of other things. That spirit is gone. That's what's lost. When the moderates don't win. So we're wondering about funding sources are their funding sources for a bipartisan center strategy. Such as are there any centers billionaires out there? The one person I keep an eye on is Howard Schultz. Schultz was running for President for about twenty minutes. If you remember and was just crushed, he came out running as an independence and the Democrats just landed on him. The fear was that he would take just enough votes away from Democrat to reelect Donald Trump. But. Schultz is still very interested in the reform landscape. Well, let's go back once more to the sort of perilous point hypothetical primary where you have a moderate in either party against. Let's call them wing nuts. How dangerous is it for an avowedly centrist group to? Support the moderate. They're certainly going to be backlash from the way nuts, man. That's what they do very well, I think it's incumbent on us to be very clear about what the strategy is, and why we're doing it and to be even-handed in the application of that, so we actually count up the number of races we're. We're supporting Republicans in Primers some very conservative people by the way, but they're in very conservative states. that. Make conversations with someone in new. York and I'll say look. You need to support the Senate candidate. In Utah and the person in the new. York says well. You know he's pro-life. I'm not pro life and I say IT'S BLOODY UTAH. Like what do you expect well? That's a good place for us to ask our final question because we appeal to independence. We, ask you show a little purple and name, one major Republican or Democratic candidate or position that you either did or could support. Well obviously I started by writing speeches for mckernan, but I on the fiscal issue I've always supported the Republicans I would say on fiscal issues. My brain has always been with the center right. Certainly, my heart is with the left. I think the Democrats are spot on climate change. The Republican view is indefensible as we've discussed I think in a time of such rapid economic change. Somebody's got to be thinking about those who are left behind. It's not obvious by the way why that has to be a democratic position. The skits back to why like the economists so much many if Milton Friedman if we were to resurrect him from the dead. I think he would say look. You're not gonNA have a vibrant market economy. If you don't take care of the losers, people were left behind. That was today's featured guest Charles Whelan founder of United America professor of public policy at Dartmouth, college and former Republican speech, writer and former Democratic candidate for Congress. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Purple Principle, a podcast for independent minded Americans about polarization in politics, society and daily life. This is Robert Peas for the Purple Principal Team. Sarah Holtz Associate, producer, Janice Murphy senior. Editor Emily Chris Staff. Reporter Kevin Kline Audio Engineer Emily Holloway, research and fact checking original theme and background music is created by Ryan Adair Rooney. We have some questions about partisanship in these not so United States. How did we get so partisan? How do we get less partisan and Ken Independent? Minded Americans help bridge the gap. Stay tuned for more insight and discussion.

Senate Congress Senate US reporter Charles Leland Judd Gregg Republican Democratic Parties Maine Charlie Whelan New England Ted Kennedy Republican Party Dartmouth New England Robert Peas Echo Chambers
Wondery Presents Even the Rich: The Kennedys

True Crime Brewery

05:33 min | 4 months ago

Wondery Presents Even the Rich: The Kennedys

"Hey Joe and Dick here you know there's one family name that is synonymous with American culture and that is the Kennedys they're seen as a symbol of the all American family. But as they cemented their place in history, the pressure to remain picture-perfect did become undeniable in the end it proved to be deadly President Kennedy was assassinated in Nineteen, sixty three, his brother bobby was killed during the nineteen sixty eight. Presidential Campaign, and then there's Ted as a young Senator Ted Kennedy drove his car one night off the road into a pond. Now, he survived the crash but his young passenger Mary Jo Kopechne he did not fearing his presidential bid would be tarnished. Ted. Waited a long ten hours to report the fatal incident and as the investigation progressed his story about the events leading up to the crash started fall apart. Word of the deadly accident spread quickly. Unfortunately for Ted, the Kennedy money and power allowed him to plead guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, and for this received a two month sentence that was suspended. Ridiculous I'm just really happy that wondering is covering nece. Say. You're about to hear preview of the newest season of even the rich the Kennedys while you're listening subscribe to even the rich on apple podcasts spotify or you can listen ad free on the one degree APP. It's a little after eight in the morning on Saturday July nineteenth nineteen, sixty, nine, and Jim Arena is in his office getting ready for what will probably be another boring. Day. Arena works on Martha's Vineyard, which is this little vacation island about seven miles off the coast, of Massachusetts. He's the local chief of police which sounds like a big job, but it really isn't. There's maybe a couple burglaries a year on the vineyard or an occasional bar fighter to there isn't even really a police station it's just two rooms in the town hall. Arenas killing time I'm picturing him hanging a bunch of string off a bulletin board trying to solve an unsolvable crime or something. When there's a knock on the door, it's a policewoman. She starts telling him someone sidecar floating near bridge on Chappaquiddick. Chappaquiddick is a small island across from the vineyard. She asked him if he wants to send somebody over there now arena replies I'll go check it out myself. A floating car must be a major event for the police chief Martha's Vineyard Yeah. It's practically on the level of a shark attack. Thirty minutes later he's parking his police cruiser at the edge of the bridge. It's one of those one lane wooden bridges, any notices some skid marks in a couple of the slats are busted out. Then he sees two men on the bridge fishing. So he goes over and ask them if they saw a car underneath one of the fishermen replies yeah, I saw one on the other side arena turns around and looks down into the murky water. He can see what looks like two tires sticking out above the waterline. When he looks up, there's a woman heading his way. She says, she lives just down the road and last night around midnight she heard a car speed. Pastor House. Arena considered us and then he asked her if she's married. Wow. Trying to score a date at a crime scene. Bold. No, it's not like that. He's asking because he wants to know if her husband has a swimsuit, he could borrow the woman looks up and down arenas like six foot four and two hundred and thirty pounds. So the odds aren't great he'd fit into swimsuit but then she says, yeah, I've got something that will work. A few minutes later arenas ready. He takes a breath and jumps into the water. It's cold and the current is strong. He figures his breath a last minute. Ninety seconds top. So yes to move fast. He tries to swim towards the car, but the current keeps pushing him back. He tries again same thing he can't get close enough to see inside. So he climbs out of the pond and goes back to his police cruiser and radios the station asking for backup and the Fire Department scuba diver. Then he jumps back into the water and tries one more time to get a look inside the car. No dice you're killing me what's in there? GotTa. Wait for the scuba diver. Meanwhile arena scrambles on top of the overturned car and sits down to catch his breath. That's when he notices the license plate l seven, eight, two, zero, seven. When backup arrives arena still sitting on the car huffing. Cups his hands around his mouth and shouts I got the plate number radio it in. A few minutes later, the guy on shore shouts back. The car is registered to Senator Edward Kennedy like Kennedy Kennedy Yup better known as Ted Kennedy Wow. Yeah. That's what arenas thinking, but he barely has time to process the news before the scuba diver shows up. The, guys in the water for ten minutes arena can hear him banging away on the cars closed windows. On the diver surfaces he's holding something. It's a young woman. She's petite with blonde hair wearing a long sleeved, white blouse, dark slacks damn I don't suppose by some miracle. She's part Mermaid and survived sadly, no, she's dead inside the car of a United States senator.

Senator Ted Kennedy Arena Jim Arena Kennedys President Kennedy Kennedy Kennedy Chappaquiddick Mary Jo Kopechne Martha's Vineyard Kennedy senator bobby United States Massachusetts Joe Pastor House Dick
011620 Part 1

Ace and TJ

52:24 min | 1 year ago

011620 Part 1

"Enter to win with the new ace. TJ Radio family. Mondays download our APP to enter and each week will pick one random name and read it on the air sometime after seven seven forty five. Am Eastern if you hear your name. You'll have fifteen minutes to call in to eight eight eight four one. TJ The new extra cheesy. Alfredo Pizza from Papa. John's has extra cheese on another three cheese. Bland on Alfredo Sauce on garlic Parmesan crust which is now on your mind and on its way to being in your new favorite thing on account of all that Jesus and Alfresco bet you heard on the radio get a new extra cheesy. Alfredo Pizza with garlic Parmesan genres for just ten bucks. Better Ingredients Better Pizza Papa. John Not valid with discounts fees and taxes. Extra price maybe family. There were some a shocking news report yesterday and statement achievement from Carolina Panthers Linebacker Luke keithly. He announced his retirement. Nobody saw that coming now now. I I've always been a fan of leukemia. Not only the way he plays but the sportsmanship that he shows he seems like a really good guy But some of you a lot of you in your own land tributes to look equally sound like it's a memorial. It's not a memorial. He didn't die in die. I mean it it it is. It's disappointing is expected. He's really sad to some people. But some of the things that you're posting look look like you're saying goodbye to him forever as if it's a eulogy or something. He did lease holy yourselves. 'cause lower twenty-eight-year-old multimillionaire got a great life. I mean he's a he's a great guy a great player first class all the way but but he didn't die. Here's one that said rob did that right. Rob In in mourning retirement cannot be easy for him. Taibbi rob rights. What is instagram score? You can see the passion. He has for this game on every snap. The team is worse for his departure and his presence. That may never fill the void again. I will miss fifty tremendously thank you. Yeah yeah he may as well not even breaking out the Hashtag never forget yet. I mean like they do with nine eleven or win prince died. You know it's not that. Ah Yeah I'm with you. TJ The HASHTAG. Never forget that having you know not saying by any means that you're silly for being upset or sad saying there's a fine line in the way you express it. He has known violence now he can no peace rigors fast walk naked. This is the TJ show off the record. Apparently some people gave us some flack yesterday on social media saying no give Luke days before you make fun nobody. Nobody was making fun of Luke keithly in that conversation after and they know that we're making fun of the people who look equally died they know and that's why they got upset because we were pointing out that they're being over dramatic and it hurt their feelings so instead of saying okay you you got me. I did do that awesome. But I don't like you making fun of me. They had to figure out some other way to complain and they put it off a loop so if you missed it we still. They'll have challenge. That's out there. Five hundred dollars to you and five hundred dollars to Luke Kuechley favorite charity. If you get luke keithly to call into this radio show or appear here in our studio and talk about your. I didn't know that was still on the table. I spent that money yesterday so in the semi half of that. I know a lot of people started started tagging him in tweets and everything yesterday but five hundred dollars to you and five hundred dollars to luke equally if he calls in and says. Hey I'm calling for and gives us your name and you got to alert the let us know that it's happening. Somebody's GONNA call and say. Hey you know it's not hang up on him hi We've done it before. Don't don't don't play with unless he's been on a bunch of other things where people are tired of not tired of it but it looks like we're baton on somebody else or unless he has some kind of stupid charity. He wants to donate the money to in all of its off. That'd be great charity. You're going to donate the money to The Oven Mitts Society Milwaukee. Okay we're not going to give swing that. Thank you for your service. You've heard of the red hat society. This is not the topics we were at. This is the giant tricycle raising awareness of the you know how many bald men with handlebar mustaches. Do not have big wheeled tricycles in twenty twenty. It's an epidemic the desserts a human rights. I say hi. Good Day sir. So riggins you had A bad dog day yesterday. He kind of I was so I I had called him for something. He was going to drop to mm-hmm lineup his dog sitter for when we go to Disneyworld next week our charity and I called him for something else and I felt bad because he said hold on a minute. TJ and then he was just he was in the middle of something. And Acu. No Regan's Regan's Gets a little flustered when things aren't in in his routine or going the way they were going and I can just picture him breaking out in the red splotches and being upset and I felt bad because I felt like I shouldn't even be listening to this conversation. He's having with whoever was in the room so finally I just hung up on him while waiting. You just hung out because I thought I don't need to be here in this. He's in he's in the middle of something serious And it was. What did your dog center do? Yes so we went to meet this woman who's GonNa Watch him next week and within twenty seconds of meeting her. She's like an older lady. She lives my parents neighborhood which is fifty five and up and within two minutes. She said she was the dog whispered. And she's like you know all these things I'm like. Oh that sounds great. Within thirty seconds of meeting her she takes the leash from me and tries to walk him out of the House. And if I don't know my dog is very attached to me. I'm very attached at. We're a little codependent little toxic. But he was not about to let her this stranger. Take him him away from me especially out of the house so he's plants and starts just grow not growling but making noises and just staring at me like what. What is she doing? Okay he's GonNa Freak out biters on the and she goes I. I also WanNa let you know. I've hurt my knee and this is just not good so within two minutes he. I just don't think I'm going to be able to do it. I was like Oh God so it did that so you don't have anybody now to watch the dog that didn't work out. That didn't work out. I do have somebody. Okay now. So was she say do you think she was using the knee as an excuse just because she felt like the dog's not going to be cooperative with me I think she really couldn't do it because she hurt her knee. I think she couldn't do it because the dogs in my parents neighborhood that she's used to babysitting our Yorkies Chihuahuas Chihuahuas in multiples. Little tiny dog maddux fifty pounds. And you know she wasn't ready for what you had no. She wasn't ready for the kind kind of dog. I was about to bring him in that house. He's very sweet because I was wondering why she didn't just tell you before you made the drive over there. Yes she never. She didn't even ask what kind of dog it was. So also got into. How long were you there? Total three minutes that fast over and Sushi Star walking away. I'm like no you got to like meet him. I mean you can't just walk him out of the House. That is not gonNA work. If you're the dog whisper lady. You know that right. WHO's ever been around a pet knows you? Just don't go come on and start dragging to get a dog especially with their owner. Its owner is still standing right there right. Exactly exactly my thoughts and I'll be honest. I walked in the house. And the smell knock you off your feet knock you off so you Kinda knew right away like this is not going to be. Yeah so freaked out so you you had to be freaking out. I was like what am I gonNa do now. But my parents are going to take them because they'll be tj calling in the middle of all that and it's my dad's talking me about something. That was my dad. Okay I was talking to and he's going on I. It's a whole thing all right. It's a whole forgot about that part of it. We have to take a break but I gotTa Tell You how Riggins Dad was trying to help him helped me with my technical problems in the middle of these two. I'm like you and we'll do that next. Phase is the team. Yeah this is the time of year when you start seeing all these ads pop up about losing pounds and inches overnight and lose fifty pounds by the end of the week and that sort of thing. You don't want it that you want to lose weight and inches. The healthy way and that's with calendar and Callahan is a product that I've been taken for a while and it's not a stimulant it's not You know any type of drug. It's not going to interact negatively with any of your medications. You actually can take it before you go to bed. That's that's how safe it is you know and not being a stimulant and all and it helps you lose weight. The right way. Yeah it also helps with joint. Pain helps acid reflux and so many other things right now now. They've got discounts on every bottle. Thirty dollars off a proven ninety day supply and they'll throw in a free month thirty dollars off and a free month just go to top loss. Dot Dot COM T. O. P. L. O. S. S. DOT COM or Callan. Use the Promo Code Ace. TJ AC TJ. You get free shipping that top loss dot com order calendar and lose weight the healthy anyway. Hey it's going and I WANNA make sure you know about the Hampton Inn and suites South Park and the completely renovated lobby fitness and breakfast areas. Just it's call seven zero four three one nine fifty seven hundred to book your reservation or newly-designed Conference Room. That's seven four three one nine fifty seven hundred. TJ Show presents a moment with ace. There's a four year old billionaire named well. He's in in Japan. This is the TJ show so yesterday today we were just explaining. How Reagan's was in the middle of a bunch of stuff With dog sitter. That he's supposed to US next week whenever we're going to Disneyworld with our charity That whole deal fallen through trying to get his parents to be able to keep his dog. You know go to plan B. in the middle of all that I had no idea he was doing. It's been are called because I had a question about My I was trying to do something through g mail and I realized that it wasn't working the way I wanted to so my natural thing to do is call riggins. Hey this is what I'm trying to do and supposingly he didn't know immediately how to fix the or how to do what I was trying to get done But in trying trying to figure it out his dad in the background starts yelling. Just tell them to do and I couldn't. I couldn't make out what it all he was saying. I could just hear your frustration and his Helpful tones in the back is dulcet helpful. So my dad. WHO's not exactly tech savvy? Six I mean he's he's good he's a business guy. He knows how to do email and strategic wanted to forward and attachment on an email email. not the whole email so when you see an attachment in the email he just wanted to four. That and I wasn't sure I said. Are you doing it on a laptop or a phone and TJ goes on a laptop. My Dad goes tell them. Open it and click on the Arrow and it g mail Mike Daddy's not doing and he's looking on his phone. He's doing on a laptop. It's not the same as I'm telling you it's the same thing every day right. Click on it. Open it forward it through g mail. It's not the same thing I I promise you because I'm looking at it right now. It's the same thing shut up. Let me figure this out. And I'm going to have an answer but he's like wait. You're living here yeah. He's doing it on a laptop. My Dad's looking at his phone. I'm like it's not the same thing and then when Regan's is trying to talk to me I can't hear him because all I can hear here is his dad yelling over him and I'm sitting here thinking I even said it doesn't have to be done today done today. L. Let me I'll have to call you back and let me look at his opt to call you back. Because when he finally just got he's stop trying to to fight his dad's voice coming in over his and and I knew he was already flustered and everything because of the dog rice up and and all of that so I felt bad about it and I said it doesn't have to be done today. Just talk to you tomorrow. But my dad he he's trying to be helpful but he's so aggressive in his tone. Yeah and obviously. That's what he's whenever you what aggressive. So he's trying to help but it's just coming the it's a pdf yeah it's a pdf just telling you right. Click it forward and g mail. I'm like but it's on a phone dad on a phone. You're on the phone. He's on a laptop. It's not the same thing opening. I'm looking at it. So in Reagan's gone back. You know what the solution was it off your laptop and do it. He was right on the act. J I let us set the scene drunk girl and guy having an argument party. She's in his face asking why he was grinding. Her best friend who is now in the other room crying take it all in permitted spectacular delicious audio mix. This is the Haza. TJ Show Taymor next road and fields has been named the number one premium skin care line in North America for the last three years. There's something for every skin. MM concern now at ACE. TJ DOT COM. Click the road and fields add on our partners page. There's a sixty day money back guarantee and new monthly specials I go to a C.. J. Dot Com and click the road and fields. Add on our partners page. If you've always dreamed of coming on board and being part of our show we have a once in a lifetime lifetime opening for a marketing promotions and operations staff member. You want to know more about the job and how you can apply. Just go to ace. TJ Dot com the ACE and TJ. Show is an equal opportunity. Employer employer TJ show precipitates delicious audio drunk girl girl and guy or having argument at a party. So she's in his face and she wants to know why in the world he was grinding on her. BFF WHO's now in the other room crying because she was also drunken realizes she was back on a guy who was her. Best Friend's boyfriend girlfriend is very upset. He is taking the very smart approach of laughing. Thing about the entire thing and the girlfriend wants him to apologize to the girl. You are listening for his response in in this. Twenty second clip apologize apologize. She's crying because of you. Why would anybody in their right mind? Dan Time you she did it. Look she was dancing with bug Suzanne. Me She just apologized because she's crying who she had to the. What did he say what you have to throw back so hard? Oh Gosh it doesn't help at all his buddies or lag time. Listen to how serious mad and she's serious it. His buddies in the background did lab. Apologize Apologize She's crying because of you. Why would anybody in the right mind Dantonio? She didn't look she was she was with me. She interested Hugh so just apologize because she's crying the talk. You want me to apologize to your friend because she was grinding on me. Yeah Ah kick rocks in open toed shoes and take. I'm not apologizing anybody. She doesn't sound drunk though to me. Drunk hair the great apologize to her. She's crying okay. We'll get it together then macy. Kate is an artist. A lot of people have probably never heard of her song is called cry for help. It's been taken over take talks in the last month. Now it's on spotify as global viral charts. It's one of those songs that when you hear it. It sounds like it was made for Tick Tock Coban spotify spotify. Now you know does your does your cat. I love about her love her. It's okay but I thought that her name is macy Kate and yeah. I don't like the the cadence of this new style. uh-huh tom sign awed. Hate that I hate it but I'm not a fan of I wanNA hear. I don't like the chopping Justin Bieber. Song played just choppy choppy chop chop a lot times. It's kind of like you look at that as a sweatshirt tied around a woman's waist even even if she doesn't have a big but when you see that you think she's trying to cover a big but so when I hear this I think they're trying to cover that they can't really think yeah but Justin Bieber canceling though I know that and he was you know he does that. choppiness It's just it's just a style thing that I don't like she very pretty and and let's face that's what counts the most. Yeah she is pretty. She looks like Air Jane from Data Oregon. I was trying to figure out who she looks like. Couldn't place it. It was driving me crazy. Yes that's exactly the real housewives of Orange Beverly Hills Beverly Hills. It looks exactly like that. So you're her. Name's Mary Kate. Song saw cry for help the TJ show. Well as they say no good deed aide goes unpunished or no good deed goes without somebody pulling a knife on you for doing the good I know. Hey Hey but getting the TACO water right is getting a TACO order right. We'll explain it next and TJ Hi. I'm Bobby Barber Arbor independent since he director. Do you love SPA soft Reagan. Susan beautiful home to core. Then hurry over to my website. SMELLS DOT COM and look at our new. Himalayan salt warmers. They're available in your color choice pinker wide or hey go ahead and get both right. Our new fragrance bars. Inhale exhale are perfect. With these warmers featuring hints of salted citrus. Chris Calming Frisia in Solar Woods. These items are on sale but only while supplies last so hurry and go to smells just right dot com and get yours today always in Tj show show graphics and Web Design are done by Alpha lab designs looking for spectacular email design at TJ Dot Com web design menus marketing materials theriault brochures flyers social media ads and more design at TJ dot com on the Jason Tj show. You're not doing this anymore but you once had a job that requires you to do something and when you look back on it now was completely totally degrading but it helped me help. Get you to where you are now. I think we're GONNA it'd be shocked at some of these things that people will talk about. so there's a guy goes into a Taco bell. Oh which we all love to do in all seriousness. It was in Virginia he was trying to buy a TACO GEICO. That cost a dollar. But he didn't have seventy cents so the employees are as my father in law in Louisiana says employees Gave Him Tacos here. Don't worry about here's your Taco. No charge right so the the story says that he went over to the table. UNWRAP UNWRAP the TACO and saw that it wasn't the kind of Taco he wanted so he pulled a knife home and Lunged at the At the person several several times it's thirty nine year. Old octavius. Hodges in He's accused of all this. He hasn't been convicted yet. So we can't say that he did it. But that's that's what the The accusations are he doesn't have enough money to buy Taco he's given Taco then pulls a knife on a guy because it's not not the exact type of Taco that he had originally wanted then. It's not the exact type of Taco that he couldn't afford to pay for right but to me. That's not the only bad part of the story. Does he may know what the other problem with the story is that I'm wondering about he went inside Taco Bueno. Why did the employees pay for the Taco out of his or her own money or because an employee doesn't have the authority to give away the product? Yeah so not saying the employees deserve to have a knife pulled on him or her but by no stretch of the imagination is a lesson very earned. Don't be given up things that don't belong to. Yeah I mean you reach into your pocket and give somebody in need something. It's noble you reach into somebody else's pocket is criminal and we don't know if he may have thrown a dollar in the you know and I'll put it down. Yeah I know what I'm saying. We I was just wondering Ah to be given something and then put an iphone. It's not what I wanted. You'RE NOT I. It goes back to people that freak out when they get a bad gift. You're not out anything. Well here's the part of the story that You and I will love the most ace. Okay once he pulled the knife lunged at the Employees in all he took off running but he was caught in a field nearby. What caught him them? Dow turned the dogs on him. Yes that's what I like. That's my like macos to coming up on now trending with Riggins LSU on an investigation. What the heck is your boy doing out there? What is going on not happy at all? I didn't like it when unsought news was the problem. WE'LL GET DJ's hot takes less than ten minutes in now trending there's more easily TJ coming ace and TJ's breaking and entering. Christmas two thousand nineteen could not have been as awesome without the support of kids. I to the Carolinas more information on how you can support them with cash or material donations I of the Carolinas Dot Org when you look at your current bathroom do you know that it needs an immediate update. We want you to know about one day bath and shower remodeling with prices as low as one hundred ninety nine dollars per month call eight hundred nine four eight five seven four nine eight hundred nine four eight five seven four nine. The news put it is what's trending down trending with regards on the show. First of all Happy Birthday Eliya. She would have been forty one today. One of the top trending topics this morning. There's a girl in the building that works in promotions and stuff. She's twenty six. She didn't know. Julio was that man is it was it was early two thousands thousands just. Do you know who Elliot's special. Sorry I do. I do right suppressed. She didn't yeah because I'm twenty five. She's twenty six Malia man. She was star. Is it possible that that girl should stoop. Oh but I didn't think about that. Have Been Fair. Elliott died. What year two thousand three? Two thousand five. Maybe it was like earlier might have been down two thousand or something like that but so if you're twenty six what you were seven when she died and I don't know that Eliot had so many pop hits that you would think she's legendary from pop world standpoint. Yeah but with all the R Kelly stuff in the news over over the past. Few Years Leah always comes up in those stories yeah is he married her when she was underage. Right seventeen sixteen or seventeen. And if you don't know so where she was filming a Music Video Call Rock the boat which is up on Youtube you can go. And after she was done with the music video shoot they got in a plane and the plane crash kneeling her. And a few other people I think are makeup up artist and choreographer and one of the bombs is in the Bahamas coming from the Bahamas back to Miami forty one. Today Elliott Forty one. Yeah Yeah And people are freaking out because there are rumors that Arianna grandes she. We know she's back in the studio making more music but rumors are that Shania twain will be featured on a new Arianna Guerande song and gays are living. They are very excited on twitter. So arianna grenades. Just is churning out all content. Maybe she's the new model for what pop music can be. Just you know it. The album cycle is not the same. You make an album you put out the single you go on tour and you start that over. Arianna Grande is kind of changing that by herself by just constantly turning out new content. So it's interesting to watch and she should take a little longer. You think we need a little break you know just work on Perfect it don't just come up with a rhythm and a bunch of vulgar lyrics and say all right. I'm ready to put put this out three for the world. Give us another sunlight. Wizard was called problems. Yeah it's it's more that Less of you in being very graphic about your exploits me No I'm kidding. Good Do you have any thoughts on the video that circulating of the wide receiver from the Cleveland Browns Odell Beckham Junior who played at Lsu after the College Football Championship on Monday night where Lsu Clemson Odell Beckham. Junior was on the field giving giving out what appears to be money to the LSU players now. The Athletic Department said on Tuesday that they were under the impression that it was novelty money. It wasn't real cash. But Joe Borough the quarterback of Lsu was on a podcast yesterday with Barstool sports and he said I believe the money was real and I can say that now because because I am no longer a student athlete I believe it was real so now there's an investigation going on because that's clearly against nc a rules for any kind of thing like like this to happen and people are very upset with Odell Beckham junior for his action and there are a lot of life several questions exactly. Who did he give the money to? Are they players. Does that will be returning are like borough. At that moment. His eligibility ended. He's already graduated from college. He graduated in December. So you can take all the money on now. Doesn't make any difference. I think but it was it real. Did they actually even keep the money. Or they goofing off on the field either way when I saw it I thought what a stupid thing to do. Why would you do something to draw that that kind of attention in that moment? Just enjoy the moment. You didn't need that and you know it's going to cause a problem. You know it. Will he did a chill out. The man Chill out ranch love. That was great. And if you're one hundred years old today's National Fig Newton Day I love to get out of here I love Fig Newton's Apple Newton's that was the thing I love all the Newton's I think the way you prefaced that Reagan if you're one hundred years old today's national I've never been never been my thing. Yeah fake preserves. Yes yes they call it a cookie. I'm like that's a stretch to call that a cookie I've never considered it a cookie either with you on that whatever. It is really I do know this. I was one of those people like as a kid. I remember like I'm not nasty but then when I was in college my roommate had he had fig Newton's went down but you know what these are better than I remember. I don't want them but they were there better than I thought. I don't even know that I've every other things you need some figues in your life you do all right I heard a story the other day at someone told It was something they witnessed from the inside of the Senate during the last impeachment process. It was really funny but it It was it was describing describing a degrading type task that someone was ordered to do so. It would give you that story and find out what you have done with your job in the past or even now that was the most grading coming up next is the nascent. TJ WANNA save up to seventy five percent on domestic or international the national airline tickets then call low cost airlines for prices so low. We can't publish them. Call eight hundred two eight seven forty seven sixteen eight hundred two two eight seven forty seven sixteen coming up tomorrow funding as TJ show. Friday mornings begin blast off. Throw it into the weekend at this time tomorrow morning. Seven Twenty Eastern six twenty central avenue. The radio families just forty minutes nonstop party music that's happening tomorrow morning on the TJ show. Okay it was a big day in history yesterday because the articles of impeachment impeachment that the That came from the Democrats in the House of Representatives to against President trump or signed and they They picked the managers. which in this process are what would be considered the prosecutors accusers And now the Senate will take up the trial quote unquote and this. This story is Educational -CATIONAL informative and funny so listen carefully the way it works when you go through through an impeachment hearing or trial in the Senate the senators sit there and they're not allowed to say anything if they you have a question for the Managers of the impeachment charges. They have to raise their hand. And a page goes to that senator and takes a piece of paper with the question on it and then takes it up to the judge which it should be the just the chief justice of the Supreme Court and then he asks at think that question from the senator. Well there's a guy that was a reporter during the Clinton impeachment trial and he said that he witnessed he sitting there. He said he was boring. Hiring and I was about to fall asleep. And I see Senator Ted Kennedy raise his hand and Senator Ted. Kennedy's been dead for a few years now but he was a Slovenly Large Guy. And he's sitting there kind of sprawled out in his chair with a footstool in raises his hand and the little page guy weaves his way all through the you know. The crowd of senators on the floor gets over to him and is expecting to get a question. Take to the judge. Well the Ted Kennedy instructed him that he needed his footstool adjusted so the guy I moved the footstool of Ted Kennedy about two inches and left and went back to his post. Just a couple of minutes. It's later Ted Kennedy raises his hand again. The the guy goes through the same process making his way across there squeezing through people and all that that hurriedly to try to get to see. What Senator Kennedy's questions going to be and The guy telling the story said he moved the footstool two inches at first but Evidently Ted Kennedy decided it only needed to be moved an inch and a half. so He's told him to adjust it back a little bit and then go on about his business. So he's making this guy come back and forth to adjust footstool when he just easily take his foot and knock it over where you want. Yeah and so. Oh that's the kind of thing that makes people hate you DIRTBAG so this guy is is down on his knees in front of his. You know in. Let's face it. Ted Kennedy was drunk too so we don't even know if he was if he was sober at. I'm the Slovenly Narcissistic ill if feet snob. He's down on his knees moving his footstool for him and I just think that's one of the As far as a a legal profession one of the most degrading things. I ah can think of that. You would do is kneel at the feet of the person and adjust their footstool forum type of thing you hear that came. Do Yeah well. I'm sitting here. Sure I can easily just take my footing. Kick it over a an aunt or something and nobody would know. But I'm GonNa make you come from back over there all the way through the crowd to get here. You get down on your knees under the desk. That's GonNa just my footstool for me to get that rob so who can say. They've had to do something at their job. That was degrading. Nothing serious like Like you were were on the receiving end of some real sexual harassment or things like that but something like walking through a crowd of people to adjust footstool. Oh for the person if the man. You're two inches if the managers dog was at work every day in the manager made you take it out then. Pick up the dog poop in dispute that kind of the one of the examples that I always think about when we talk about these. Things is when Ace and I had our first Radio job at this radio radio station. The engineer the one that did all the electronic engineer did all the sound and the equipment and all of that was genius. I mean a full-fledged genius one of the most respected in his field he wrote articles for magazines teaching engineers how to do things and he's invented ended stuff that people use in radio to this day. One of the owners of the radio station would bring him His lawnmower to work gone And one of one of the things he came in with one day was it was bright yellow and it was his daughters blow dryer. You know ten bucks back then and he had His name is Mr Linney. Mr Lanny work on his daughters hairdryer. The girl here that says She had a job delivering singing telegrams then her job became became delivering singing telegrams in an old school playboy bunny waitress outfit. She said Hindsight Twenty Twenty knowing knowing now what I didn't know then they were. We're working we up to stripping the kind of stripper that comes to your party. I quit way before that ever happened. I didn't like wearing the outfit and singing for old creepers. The good and you'll wear an outfit take it. Oh man to head off if it's if it's bothersome other SOM so Wearing wearing old school playboy bunny waitress outfit in singing for old creepers with her degrading things. So so what are you have again. Something that's not a serious abuse or anything that that'll take the fun out of it. Probably we don't want to see Syria even agrees with me. Okay Yeah I guess. Syria was about to call and she should stories not not funny. The one triple eight forty one. Eight T J or DMZ on social media the most degrading thing. You had to do here the best thirty minutes of today's TJ show listen to TJ thirty podcasts available on the TJ. Show podcast on our APP available afternoon. Eastern stay connected funny on the the AC TJ APP available at I tunes do play mores at TJ comment. This is the ace and Tj. Jay Show Oh man. These are all expected. These really funny most degrading thing you had to do at your job this this doesn't say keep her anonymous so I will say. Her name is Jackie with a Q.. U. Cute Said I was a receptionist at a small medical office. The owner would have me go to her house once a weekend. Clinton I mean detailed clean. Yeah today you're not a receptionist your mate and If you WANNA send us a text the number is nine six eight nine three and just put a Tj then your message such says not me but my cousin she was employed at a little retail bookstore owner had to have her leg amputated below the knee. She made my cousin come in every day. A change her I v and clean her stump even though she had no medical training and was not a nurse. vinnie guide clean. How would you trust anybody without any kind of medical Knowledge to chain. IV as eight. It's not that hard. I don't think you have to take the needle in and out as a needle stay like a port and I necessarily needle can support. I think pop like when you give blood and they take those little tubes on there. It's Kinda like that. I think The gross stillbirth eight anonymous. Please lady I said I used to work for a company where the owner would bring her three dogs to work every day and expect the smokers to walk them. I'm sorry expect US smokers to walk them since we're going Outside anyway yeah not only walked into pick up their poo and wipe them. They were small dogs with long hair and she didn't want the smell so we had. If you're a smoker. When you went outside to smoke you had to take the dog walk? It make sure it goes to the bathroom. And then stop and wipe the dog up before you bring the dog back. That's horrible this is Lucy which is the name we give people who wanNA stay. Anonymous says I lost a contest for worst business results when I had taken over to fix the business the same week. Didn't even I know there was a contest. I had addressed like a baby in a diaper and BIB and everything in front of customers. For the extent of meeting Goo Goo Ga.. Yeah that is that is very stephanie. Said I used to be a legal assistant for an attorney when I was my senior year of high school. The attorney was a rather large woman and she always wore skirts. She's to call me into her office every day in the late afternoon to get on my hands and knees and crawl under her desk while she set there to plug in her curling iron as I was reading that plug in her curling. Iron was a relief. When I got to that part yet what was was was come? Wipe the sweat off the back with David as a young pilot in the United States army. I got in trouble like most private to my punishment was. I had to wear a helmet with a break tape to it was a brick taped on top of the helmet Headed where anywhere I went on Post that made the gym. Work the Chow Hall. Even local restaurants they learned as he learns his lesson. Look like an idiot with the tape to a L L he said it did give him a strong neck though. I'm nick so strong though. Wow I love this place that I was the secretary of my first. My first job it was a small building in my boss's office was upstairs upstairs. which is where he would have his client meeting? He had a breakfast meeting with the client. This particular morning after it was over. He asked me to wash the dishes. They used I told him I don't do dishes. He proceeded to pick up the sponge. Turn on the water. Did their washing the dishes go. No no see. This is how it's done do yeah. We did get a lot of that word not degrading at all. Just unpleasant you know I really wouldn't WanNa do first arena. It was like these people don't know what degrading is. Yeah but some of the things are just if if you work at a fast fast food place and a child throws up that somebody that somebody's job is to clean that. I mean that's part of the job. That's not degrading like. Hey you know take my dog August and wipe it but different yeah So Yossi let's see how lucky y'all are here working for US SAS writing happening here. People know maybe a little passive aggressive sarcasm here there that you don't like the two of you but that's just the way as operates Ah Tj. Oh I don't believe in ghosts but I don't have an explanation for what's going on in this families families live lives with a haunted Elsa doll wait. Wait till you hear this even if if you're like me you don't believe in ghosts. You're you'RE GONNA be flustered trying to come up with an explanation for what's going on here. It's Y'all go next. What's the easiest way to get all our podcast giving out these? TJ Show more show and and all our cast. PODCASTS are on our APP available each weekday after twelve noon stay connected funny on the TJ APPS available at I tunes in Google play common up on the act. J. Show you see it happening all the time and you're dying to know you are just dying. Get The answer to your question. You're just a little bit too scared to ask. We might not have the answers but we certainly want to know the question coming up in about thirty the agent. TJ Show. It could be something that you wanna ask us and maybe we will answer. Maybe not but it could be something that's happening in your life. Maybe dying car that issue. See Your Neighbors House. Every Tuesday take Thursday Saturday from noon to that kind of thing in about thirty minutes. Okay listen there's a family in Houston and they've had this This little Elsa doll from The frozen movies for several years since the first movie movie came out right when it came out. They got this little doll and there is a button on it. You press the button and it speaks in else's voice. Well they believe this dollars haunted which is is creepy to begin with in a You think about Chucky that the concept of a doll being haunted with their little doll is and doll voices and all of that stuff So they said everything was fine with the dollar until one day. The doll started speaking sometimes in English and sometimes in Spanish vanish and there was no button on it. That would switch it from one to the other. It just happen then. One day it just switched which completely to Spanish again no way of controlling it. So you think okay was system Ou- function in the little computer that's it's inside the doll or whatever that's easily explained then they Through the doll out because you know it was old toy and the little girl in their family was not playing with anymore so they threw it away in the trash out on the curb. Oh No don't tell me this dollar buying that house stop. They end up finding the doll later inside of a bench inch in the house and then their kids swore that they didn't go. Get the doll out of the trash on bodies lined up okay. Then they threw it out again and double bagged it. Put it in the bottom of the trash can be hauled away. They went off for the weekend or something they were gone for a couple of days. They came back after they got home. The kids were in the backyard playing and and they found the doll in the backyard. Propped up against the side of the House. Go Somebody's messing with him. It's gotta be this. This is the doll on an. Yeah Yeah Yeah I think Either the parents are making up this story to go viral viral for something or somebody knows about what they've what they've been dealing with and has sneaked over there in and been taken the doll out of the track. It's either somebody it's either one of the parents you're right or it's a neighbor but I I it an inside job. I think it's one of the parents. They found out how to record stuff on the dollar. Whatever and then Probably got got the stuff off line. You can probably Google Search spanish-speaking Elsa I can change it I'm I'm thinking that it was just a glitch in the doll and they started talking about it to their friends and family and everything and then the subject came up with that dolls possess whatever and then. That's the person that goes and plays the tricks on getting it out out of the trash. So what they did was to get rid of the doll once and for all they sent it mailed it to a relative inland Minnesota or somewhere and so they know the dollars there now and then they say shows back up. Then we'll know if you WANNA take care of it once and for all burn it. That's what but I was thinking. Why wouldn't you just take it on? I was going to burn it all and be done with it. Gets you low. Propane torch finished with that. F- I'm with Taught Elsa out. Yeah she threw. I believe it's on it but just the idea of a haunted era possessed doll. Are you know a lot of dolls that talk creepy anyway but if it wasn't you do when you're one of those kids and you look lunacy else's leaning up against the fence. Oh no Sir freaking out a little bit. Yeah you know the parents are talking about all this in front of the kids going on. It's always coming up on now. Trending with Regan's Canadians are still just fuming over this article do they need to lighten up or do they have a point. He tells now trending in wasn't ten minutes get interacted with the T._v.. Show social media platforms easily found on the T._J.. APP stay connected funny on the A._C._T.. J. APP available tunes in Google. Play or T._J. Comey.

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Rep. Joe Kennedy on defending Medicaid in the Trump era

POLITICO's Pulse Check

32:51 min | 1 year ago

Rep. Joe Kennedy on defending Medicaid in the Trump era

"Healthier. People working is not the same thing as work making people healthier. Is there any single study you can point to? Yes, or no that shows that work requirements make people healthier. I we'd have to. I'd have to provide that in writing to if we have that. I look forward to the answer. I'm Dan diamond this pulse. Check. And that was Representative Joe Kennedy questioning HHS secretary, Alex as are at a budget hearing last month to me, congressman Kennedy is a fascinating democrat talk healthcare. He's got a famous family legacy with his great uncles JFK and Senator Ted Kennedy helping push Medicare and coverage expansion he's made his name on issues like Medicaid, mental health and transgender protections. And he was on the podcast two years ago in the middle of Republicans push to repeal the ACA who was a memorable conversation. You'll find a link to it in the show notes. Now, two years later after Kennedy star has risen was picked to give the Democrats response to the state of the union last year. I wanted to circle back and we sat down in his office at the end of a Hong Tuesday for the congressman what I wanted to know was how his job has changed. The Democrats lead the. House how he approaches hearings with someone like secretary as our and more. You'll hear that conversation in a moment. But before we get to that. This is my regular reminder that you can help us by reviewing our show on your favorite podcast player. If you want a different perspective on healthcare and policy, check out our archives. Republican Senator Mike Braun sat down with us last week. And Senator Chuck Grassley appeared recently to half day. Commissioner Scott Gottlieb gave an exit interview before he leaves his job. You can find all of those episodes in our archives. And now, let's get to my conversation. With Representative Joe Kennedy. Congressman Joe Kennedy. Welcome back to politico. Pulse. Check. I happen to have or happened to be here. Thanks to me to set the scene you on this podcast about two years ago. It was right after you and your colleagues had been up all night trying to delay the Affordable Care Act. We ended up talking a little bit about coffee. But but that was that was a tactic that you had available delay. Democrats did not control the house. Now, you do you are now the vice chair of investigations for the energy and commerce committee. There does not appear to be a repeal Bill looming in congress, President Trump ran away from that that idea just just this week give it a week. We'll see what happens next. That's true. That's true. It is Washington DC is President Trump, the tables haven't totally turned. But but they've turned enough. How do you find being in power? What is the biggest surprise? Now, the Democrats control the house. So look for top. Thanks for having me again and not to start off by funding your hypothetical, but decided a little bit. The tables have turned in the sense that Democrats are in control of the house of representatives. And that I think many of us myself included believe that part of the reason why we are in control is because of healthcare because when the American public's confronted with a choice of something that is very personal about making sure that your loved one gets the care that they need when they need it and a party that believes that a fundamental right in this country is that you should get it versus a party that has tried to destroy it for years without any plan about what to do then. As. Families you try to make sure that you care for your loved one. And that helped make an informed decision that that led to us going back those. But I think we also have seen as you just alluded to the tables have not turned with regards to. Action after action after action from this administration to try to find myriad ways to undercut sabotaged delay and hurt the implementation of the Affordable Care Act. Whether it's from funding for marketing to undermine stages too. To work garments for Medicaid and most recently, President Trump calling on the courts to strike down the Affordable Care lock stock and ever and barrel. All of it, which got pushback from a number of other Republicans house and Senate and some of my Republican colleagues if you ask them privately were more than a bit surprised to miffed about the idea. So I've asked them publicly Senator Mike Bron was on this podcast a week ago. Not a fan of the idea to strike down the without having a plan to replace it. One would like to believe that. If the definition of insanity is continue to do the same thing expecting different results. After what happened last year? You would believe that Republic ox would hope to expect that they would not do the same thing. What happened last year being the midterm elections were Democrats elections in continuing to try to run on repealing alco without having a replacement plan in a replacement plan that is anywhere near as as helpful at trying to address the concerns that American families have when? Democrats were in the minority. It was easy in some respects to rally behind pushing back against the Trump administration. Now, you are in the majority, and there are different ideas of what Democrats should do with that power. For instance, Medicare for all about half, the members of your caucus support a Medicare for all Bill. You are now one of them as of this year. Why did you change your mind and get behind Medicare for all? So couple of things one I have signed onto that Bill and proud to sign onto that Bill to the Bill has the same name. It is a vastly different Bill as you. Well know, the first Bill was about roughly eight or ten pages long it in my opinion with all due respect to my colleagues was not a comprehensive or particularly well thought through Bill in the terms of the drafting and the consequences of some of what was drafted. You don't think you can fit a whole healthcare reform in eight to ten page. I don't think a Democratic Party is going to actually pass a Bill into law that bans access to abortion. And shuts down twenty percent of American hospitals, and all sorts of other consequences here that we we didn't give a whole lot of that that that Bill contemplated. If it was enacted the way it was drafted to the letter earlier billiards, generally Bill privilege, I upheld two credit and congresswoman Paul I think he tried to take the intent the values enshrined in that Bill in terms of making sure that everybody gets access to the health care, they need when they need it. In this country and try to start to flush him about out. And then look I signed onto it. Because after looking at it for a while. And after discussions with the congresswoman's office and concerns that I brought up about access about mental Daviel healthcare about women's reproductive rights about for profit hospitals and on the big fan of the for profit hospital industry, but there are for profit hospitals in Massachusetts for profit hospitals in my my district that if they were to shut down I've got constituents that would have. A much harder time trying to find access to care and without an explanation as to how that you do it. So Mr. I Paul put off a lot more thought into it. And the current draft of the Bill still raises serious questions. I pointed those out a statement that support the Bill around again access around reimbursement. Rates for doctors around behavioral and mental mental health care. Run a whole lot of things that we continue to have to wrestle with private insurance market places. Well, but I also come back to. This fact that. My uncle Senator Kennedy introduced a single payer Bill on the Senate floor nineteen seventy-one. And if you look back at his speech, he points to amongst other reasons for it. These disparities that we have in healthcare around maternal mortality infant mortality on life expectancy that our country after fifty years of trying and yes, we have undoubtedly made progress in our healthcare system. But after fifty years of try- trying we still see a United States that lacks the developed countries infant mortality that is confronted with the fact that African American woman is two hundred forty three percent more likely to die during childbirth and a white woman, and that those rates are still elevated when adjusted for income education. So you can't just write that office demographics and social terminal, but those are systemic problems and you're saying that health insurance for all fixes maternal mortality. I'm saying the making sure that as we look at in coverage for all you address, the incentives to make sure that people have access for all. And so that is and I think that's something that Mr Paul is very aware of is to not conflict. These issues around coverage and access that they both need to be addressed eight both to be reformed Massachusetts that we have a great example of this. We have essentially universal coverage rates. You're ninety roughly ninety eight percent coverage. We still have challenges with excess not in terms necessarily of can you get access to a doctor in Massachusetts. And that big estate. There's hospital particularly eastern part of the country and pretty high saturation right eastern part of the state a high saturation level and. Western part of the state. They're still. Pretty good access to care. But when you start to look at some of those outcomes around racing around social determines around access around social around, poverty, we still struggle with it. And that's something that I think my decision to get on Medicare for all is also about saying. The continued kind of incremental progress is not going to be enough because we've had fifty years of trying to tweak and address as market, and we still haven't gotten there yet. And you can't keep trying to say, okay. Well, I am not going to say give us fifty more years if you can try to Justice right down you have to give a wholehearted thought reexamination to these structures in a payment systems access models to make sure the people get there, you've mentioned hospitals. A couple times Massachusetts has partners healthcare one of the leading hospital systems in the United States. How does Medicare for all affect partners healthcare wouldn't it hurt their revenue their profitability? Well, the shortage of that is the Bill itself is says that reimbursement Richard left up to a to the secretaries negotiate. So if you talk to some of the any hospital minister, you sit there and say, well, it depends their reimbursement rate and their their bottom line is going to be determined largely as to what how much money the government's gonna reimburse them therefore for their services. And the. Partners healthcare is the largest employer in the state. It's got a number of different facilities. Not just two of the flesh of hospitals and. Mass General and pregnant women's but plenty of other vocal sites outpatient clinics, ambulatory care sites community health centers. But that if you look at the payment modeling as a. Significant percentage that is private insurance is significant percents Medicare and a smaller portion that's going to be Medicaid. And so part of that's going to depend on where those medic where the government reimbursement rate is actually set, and that's part of the question. I think we as a as this Bill gains traction going forward. We also have to have a discussion because the that impact to our constituents in terms of access to care that they need is going to be determined in part by what those reimbursement rates are going to be set at and that's got to be something we wrestle with wind up question when it came out that you're supporting Medicare for all did any hospital executives in healthcare industry executives say to you congressman this this is going to hurt us. Have you heard any resistance to the idea? No. And I try to. I talked to a number of the heads of hospitals in Massachusetts healthcare, systems, Massachusetts, and a number of them actually said that they supported single payer system on number of them understand the underlying issues that I just brought up with you and have pushed on the need to reform. I think they would like various reforms to that system to try to make sure that there is better. Incentives put in place to actually reach other parts of the populations that we don't serve public quite as well. But we Healthcare's complicated. And I've heard that. Yes. And from the White House and beyond who knew. And so I think part of look I I'd like to think anyway, I go into this Bill and others that I've signed on to you is wide open to say, look, I I'm not sure anybody has all the answers to this yet can identify some of those inflection points and tried to say, look, we have to you have to flush this out, and we have to be willing to adjust some of the structures in this legislation to be reflective of the economic reality. Reality in analysis that comes back when we're Medicare for all question. We in the press have been looking closely at the tension between the Democrats who say the energy needs to be focused on preserving the Affordable Care Act, my colleague, politico. Adam Cancun had us today on Nancy Pelosi's office, and some of the work that they may have done to encourage groups to not focus on Medicare for all in focus on on. The. Meanwhile, there are the newer members predominantly who say we need to be ambitious for all the reasons you just said congressman we've been doing this. For decades, we have to take a big swing? How much of that tension as reported in the media and in your perspective? Is is accurate? So I don't look at it as tension. I look at that. And I I really I don't mean this was political spin. I the I think this is actually sincere that. Democrats aspired to be a big tent party. We are part of diversity geographic, ethnic, racial, religious ideological. And that when you run as a big party and actually win on a big ten mandate. And you have a whole bunch of folks that they have different ideas about how policy gets manifested, then you can have different ideas. You just want ran a campaign on that celebrating that you can't expect that after you win it every gonna fall in line behind somebody's idea because that's not one person's idea to bless her to try to indoctrinate everybody else behind it. That's that's not the way democracy works at certainly not to a Democratic Party works. What you do have. Without question is an underlying value that that permeates through all of the bills that you've seen house and Senate that Democrats believed that you get the healthcare that you need when you need it a price you can afford period. Full stop end of story that is a value that we try to codify in law and work to actually implement for every single person in this country. Would you have a Republican party essay taking healthcare away from thirty million? People is success that were. Appealing. The character is an act of mercy that this is some sort of game that you can sign on to try to repeal all every aspect of the Affordable Care Act lock stock and every other word in the code and to try to say look hundred thirty million people with preexisting conditions. You're on your own millions of people that are gonna lose access to healthcare from Medicaid expansion. Good luck. The folks that are suffering from an opiate addiction as the president goes around the country campaigning on it that then guts the single biggest pair of mental health coverage in this country and Medicaid the inconsistency. The hypocrisy is stunning and they don't have a clue as to what would actually be done to care for those to their for their constituents or their patients at all. And so the value that we have as Democrats, we are lockstep behind the the underlying aspect that Republicans. Have there isn't one and that is going to be dividing line for this election coming up, and that is the dividing line for healthcare and the role of federal government in our country. I watch a lot of congressional testimony and recently, I watched. Secretary easer testifying your moments with him popped out when the secretary so your agency's budget you propose implementing mandatory work requirements for Medicaid beneficiaries, not knowing what the impact will be across every single state, according to some estimates. Upwards of four million Americans can lose access to healthcare. Eighty percent of whom would only lose coverage because of owners reporting requirements, you just said, you're not sure why people are losing it. You've now said that you want to extend that to every single state what the logic in that you pushed him on sensitive topics like Medicaid work requirements. So. Sorry to interrupt you the idea that asking the secretary of health and human services about a policy that the administration says that they are proud to support an implemented are trying to roll out across the country. The idea that that is sensitive is kind of bananas. This should be something as a elected official you kind of operate under. What we call in Massachusetts. Boston Herald rule, you do not do anything that you do not want us to cover the Boston Herald. I've heard that before about you don't want to do anything that you would not want to see on the cover of the New York Times, they take it. And you don't want to do something that if the newspaper gets a hold of the optics the appearance. Yes, that you wouldn't want to be proud to be able to defend and so when you have the head of a. Agency that is over if you take out the actual health programs the Medicare, Medicaid, but just look at their budget. It's in the tens of billions of dollars one of the biggest ones in in the federal government, and you have the head of it there, and you ask them. Okay. You want around rolls the policy, can you show me the evidence that actually works, and he couldn't when you none. Because he couldn't because there is not I have asked repeated for the past several years of a Trump administration. I have asked multiple officials for any study any of us. They have to say that worker. Carman's make people healthier. And then they don't have their response is always the same. Well, healthier people work. Yes, I get that oddly enough healthier people work do work across make people healthier no clue and the head of HHS should be able to understand causation correlation and the backwards of that statement, and if he can't he's just spinning members of congress are asking him to defend a policy that he is supposed to be proud of to roll out to millions of people across the country, and they can't do it. And that's. Nuts for an agency that as opposed to be safeguarding and securing an increasing people's access to health care in this country. You're doing you're implementing an ideological agenda without any evidence that it works. I would only add to that as a reporter a day or two later. He made a similar point to the Senate. His staff was surprised when as our said when secretary said the reason these folks have not come back on the program is because they've found jobs his own staff people within Medicaid told me, we don't have numbers to support that. I I have a question for you congressman because you have a power that. I don't have as a reporter that the average listener doesn't have the secretaries coming before you to testify. You know, you have a few minutes. You must have many many questions you want to ask him. Can you just explain how do you decide when you have that window? How do you know what you're going to prioritize when do you know what you're going to ask? So that one is hard because there's an awful lot of things that I would like to get answers on. And you only have a couple of minutes, and when you have somebody that has been doing this at least for a little while, you know, secretary is going to try to use up that as much of that time as as he can buy essentially filibustering answer, which he tried to do. So that's your perspective that he filibustered. Yeah. Without question. I asked him for an answer. The first question. I asked him went on for a while. And I ended up having to shift the topic to the medical requirements. The. For me. One understanding that. I appreciate your your. Observation that I'm in leadership in the energy and commerce committee. It still feels like I'm awfully far down that diet. So understanding that there's a number of folks that are going to get questioned opportunity to question the secretary before I am it's listening a little bit to what those questions are. They're gonna we've got some pretty talented people on the committee. They've they ask the number questions that I would have asked as well. And so two part of that is they already highlighted some of the issues that we have to obviously if there happens to be something that is particularly. Odd or explosive or strange comes out you can adjust your questions to try to follow up on some of the questions of our our colleagues are he asked, but work requirements are one of those issues that I I understand this administration is trying to roll out to as many states as they possibly can across the country alleged that the Trump administration proposed would nationalize s and that it is my opinion and the opinion shared by many of other people, including some federal judges that they are illegal because they are against the very statute that codifies, Medicaid, and that given some political forces and realities here, you're gonna have states that are taking a Medicaid expansion, but then are trying to roles implement a conservative viewpoint on top of them. Which again if there's any evidence that. That a policy is gonna make people healthier. Then you've got a stronger argument to make we can debate. I still don't necessarily think this is the right way to do it fine. But there's no evidence for it. And so when you roll that out without evidence to millions of people that essentially are going to lose healthcare as the information has come back because of your credit card bills that they haven't been able to understand how to navigate through that seems like a back end run on trying to take people healthcare way and call it work indignity, and there's no dignity in that. So are you asking the secretary these questions because you already know that he's not going to be able to say we have evidence or you truly hoping that he is going to produce something. I mean, honestly is this a political moment? Or is this an investigation is I would hope that any secretary that is going to come before congress and with a policy objective is going to have some empirical evidence in order to back that objective up. It was a sincere request to understand what the evidence basis for that information was and if the secretary had come up with an you just had done some sort of study to indicate. That actually was based on sound empirical logic in science, I would have welcomed. It turns out he didn't which is not entirely surprising. Because again, when I asked HHS officials for this in the past they have not been able to point to one single episode, which one leads the question to say, why would you do this? Why would you think it is a goal to take people's healthcare way? And how dare you try to think that you can cloak this idea of dignity of work and think that that is somehow that you're not going to call that for you're pushing bills to strengthen Medicaid funding, strengthen mental health services. Republicans control the Senate, we've just gone through how the Trump administration feels about Medicaid. Do you have any realistic expectation that your efforts to strengthen Medicaid will become law? Yes, I think it is realistic expectation, I think the question is on time, but taking a page out of some other folks playbook here about. About how legislation works in about how this country works. I don't think you're ever going to be wrong by picking the right answer and trying to chip away at it over time. And look my uncle on healthcare for fifty plus years, and he never lived to see the day. See the Affordable Care Act implemented and not comparing his dedication to that online or his views on health care to this to mind. He's he worked on that for longer than I've been alive. And so that's that's not a fair comparison. But it is to say if you believe that those folks offering from mental behavioral deserve access to care in this country. If you believe that that they are in fact aliens, if you believe there's stigma associated with it, which means that book suffering stay behind the shadows. If you believe that that accessed the continue of care is not robust enough. So that you have loved ones that end up leaving their jobs dedicating their live with its to caring for somebody that actually need help. Then and that you see as I saw a prosecutor for a couple of years before running for office. You see the consequences of the failure to invest in the healthcare system, particularly for mental illness in the criminalization of mental behavioral Senator in our criminal Justice system and carbonation and addiction than I don't think that there's any debate or doubt, at least in my mind that this is the right thing to do is a smart thing to do. It is the economic lease smart thing to do as well, it it might not mean that I'm gonna get Mitch McConnell to agree to up Medicaid funding in order to cut a criminal Justice funding, but I would much rather have that discussion and debate with the American public, and the only way I know how to do that if they have those bills out there advocate for push them and force anybody to engage in that discussion and be able to justify it. And if the answers, look we just can't afford it and find the one point five trillion dollars tax cut on a credit card. That we also can't afford. But if your desire is to say, hey, we can we can pass a tax code that incentivizes that expands incentives for private jet owners. But can't do it to make sure that somebody's with bipolar disorder. Get the treatment that they need. Then that's a question for the American public as to whether that's a right choice for the federal government. I know your time is tight. So I'm wondering if we can just wrap with the lightning round. Let's do your vice chair, Owen, I ENC energy and commerce committee. What is an area that you want to investigate? The you think needs to be a priority that we have not discussed so far so one I think. I think we need to do a much deeper dive on the way that. On the adequacy of mental of help may mental and behavioral. Healthcare is is treated is compensated the way that those networks work and to ensure the existing insurance companies aren't compliance with federal and this gets complicated because of the state regulatory nature of many insurance plans, but the fact is there are federal protections in place in the vast majority of folks aren't getting access to the care that they need to serve that's one. I mean he'd been minded as a lightning round lane and can strike a few times. So. I think the use of federal tax payer dollars for Republican consultants by CMS director Seema Verma's questionable at best. I think that the use of opioid funding. Is not anywhere near as robust as it needs to be your should be. And I think in a valuation of those programs is helpful. I would love to see imperial evidence to say that they're abstinence only programs on faith based programs are being supported by evidence. Not just in this country. But in terms of some of the dollars that they're spending around the world. So a full plate of possible. Environment. For journalists to I've I've watched some of these younger Democrats and thought of you in your career because it took you a few years make a national impact when you're on the podcast two years ago. That was really are your big national moment with the do you have any advice to some of the younger Democrats who have come into congress? I far bit for me to give people advice. I think many of our younger. Democrats are doing our newer Democrats are doing just fine. They certainly don't need my vice though, the only thing I would say is that. There's and I haven't been here that long, but there's obviously a difference between oversight which somebody can do. To accent on your own. But certainly with a committee to subpoena helps. But you can ask questions the way that I did you can you can get a good staff and try to start to dig into some issues and expose some of the areas, I think of of or disagreements on values or judgment from an administration. And I think that's important when it comes to pass legislation though, you also need a coalition and particularly passing the house with the majority dominate institution might not be quite as difficult. But the realities are that no party here is going to be irrelevant for all that long because the pendulum swings. And there is always always around. And so you pass it on a party line vote. One time it's ripe for revision by the opposite party the next and so the longer the more you are able to craft bipartisan solutions stronger coalition you bring to the table. I think the better off the struggle legislature is going to be in the better off the country is going to be there's a famous time magazine cover right after president. Obama was first elected that basically said are Republicans now dead? Maybe slumbering for years at best. Senator Elizabeth Warren was you're a law school. Professor you introduced her you endorsed her was this deal that you made back in school. There are a lot of Democrats out there who would have your endorsement, I'm not I I'm not so sure about that. But it was a here, you're -dorsements not valuable. I I'm not I I was honored to give it I don't know. How valuable it actually is? I think I'm not so sure there's a whole lot of folks out there. They're going to vote for anybody based off of the value of unadorned spend of anybody. I think that particular when it comes to Senator Warren people are gonna vote for and support because of the value of her ideas and the ferocity with which she approaches the issues, and the intellect that she has about trying to make sure that comic structures in our society are. Recalibrated to to address. Working class aspiring middle class families middle class families, and so was their deal. No was it fun to run around with her. We ran our first campaigns at the same time and. She's a heck of a candidate. And really glad she's in the Senate and off to great. Thanks. You. Also endorsed Pete booed edge. At least his book. I was in a bookstore recently and saw it came out the same week as as Elizabeth Senator warned declared her candidacy, so what you're saying is the endorsement for the book should not be interpreted. It was a very impressive. Blurb. Thank thank you, the mayor's the friend an incredible young man with a really bright future. And obviously he's like your age there. That's right. I'd like to think I'm still young. But regardless. With bright future that I think the American public's also kinda see this. This question gets asked of your female counterparts. I wanted to ask it of you. You have two young children. You're on the road. You're you're got a busy Pat career. How do you balance work and family? Brutally and the I guess the honest answer that is you don't really. And it's hard the hardest part of this job. Without question is family the interference. You probably picked up earlier in the podcast that was my wife face timing twice with my kids. So I will. So we're keeping you from your family. We'll face it. We will finish. There's no FaceTime. Come back. It's brutal. And it's a artist part of the job. And it's. You do the best you can and try to address those are just those structures. So that my workdays down here are much longer than they are back home. I I'm in the office until about ten o'clock or so at night, I come in pretty early in the morning to try to clear the desk as best I can with a one year old and three year old because I'm not in a position to go back home with until my wife. Hey, you get the better. I got some emails. It's just not gonna happen. I don't want. I don't wanna do that. I'm gone about a hundred nights a year already before you had on campaign travel and everything else. So it's a lot and you need to have a partner every single step of the way that is willing to do way more than her fair share and be willing to step up and believe in this work to I've extremely fortunate to that I found one in Lawrence, but it's. It's hard. And I don't think anybody can tell you. Honestly, otherwise last question was in your waiting room. There are Red Sox posters and patriots Boston. And Massachusetts have had a pretty good running sports. It's fair to say, I know you're a basketball fan if you had to compare your career to a Celtic, which which one are you are you are you Jason Tatum. You're still waiting to break through Kyrie Irving. You want the ball? I would. I mean, look the one that I would love to be at some point is Bill Russell who just wins. Like if you want eleven in a row and nine out of nine in a row and eleven out of thirteen and then one. As a coach to coach right after their right? So like is pretty good. It's pretty good stretch. I think I got a long way to go before that happens. Look the. Hopefully, they have a long deep drive in the playoffs. And we'll take it from there. Sometimes I'd probably feel more like the most apt comparison, I get to modern-day Celtics is one the leprechaun or two Brian Skela brainy. There is some overlap with the pigmentation. Congressman Joe Kennedy. Well, we'll let you go. Call your family. Thank you so much for joining the podcast. Thanks so much guys. That's it for pulse. Jack this week. My thanks to congressman Kennedy and his office as well as Dave shot and mccollough Rodriguez at politico for making the show possible. You can find me at Di diamond politico dot com with suggestions on future episodes, confined pulse. Check all of your favorite podcasts players restrict for politico. Pulse. Check, and you can find a new episode of this show and your podcast player next.

Medicaid Bill Russell Medicare secretary Senate Massachusetts Representative Joe Kennedy Trump administration congress congressman HHS partner president Republicans President Trump Senator Ted Kennedy Senator Chuck Grassley Democratic Party
June 20, 2019

POLITICO Playbook Audio Briefing

03:32 min | 1 year ago

June 20, 2019

"Thursday morning. I'm Anna Palmer and welcome your political playbook, audio briefing, sponsored by BP. And I'm Jake Sherman. Tom Steiner the liberal billionaires airing a new sharply-worded impeachment ad on cable television around America, the new ad which stiers need to impeach his putting seven hundred thousand dollars behind will also pointedly, run on Friday and Monday on FOX and friends and DC a clear attempt to get President Donald Trump to see it the ad features Trump saying he will fight all the subpoenas and also shows the bit from the president's interview with George Stephanopoulos, where Trump's that he would take dirt from a foreign country. The kicker line voiced by star America will move forward as soon as leader stopped acting on their own interest start leveling with voters and do what's right. Joe Biden wasn't apologizing yesterday. He fired back at critics of his Jim Easson, and Herman Talmadge comments. But a cleanup attempt did happen. Purple may severance filing from donor party at the Chevy Chase home of Tim SRI. Ever Biden invoked, the late Senator Ted Kennedy and said that while detested, what slim and Talmadge stood for in terms of segregation. They all work together on things like restoring the Voting Rights Act. Here's how it's playing there was a split between twenty twenty candidates who largely pile on Biden, and prominent elected officials who took a path would lead to Biden's defense. The biggest deal Representative Jim Clyburn, the house majority, whip and South Carolina heavyweight told a few of us off the house floor. The Biden's working with Talmadge and Eastland is no different than him, working with strong Thurmond inside Biden land, the Washington Post detailing how there was friction inside the campaign with Biden needs urging the candidates use a less toxic example. Markelle poodle writes, at this latest incident reinforces to a Biden's biggest liabilities his age in his record on race. The latest way in Alexandria Causey Cortez, went after Biden, and the tasha correctly reports of better democratic Gad maker, Mark Putnam has. Parted ways with the Biden campaign. His departure was scheduled before Biden's controversial segregationist remarks congressional softball game last night. The bad news babes the media team beat the lawmakers ten three their fourth win in as many years in the eleventh annual congressional women's softball game. He event raised more than three hundred sixty five thousand dollars for young survival coalition and for your radar the AP's reporting that the Iran revolutionary guard shutdown a US drone Thursday, New York Times, publisher AG souls. Burger wrote a Wall Street Journal op Ed saying Trump crossed the line, when he used the paper of treason time, spokeswoman said it was intentional for souls burger to write for a rival paper, who would have thought the White House and congressional negotiators broke a budget talks yesterday having reached no deal to lift strict caps that come into effect next year. Steven Mnuchin pitched a one year stopgap funding Bill at current levels, and a one year, debt limit does Donald Trump have any idea how good of a deal that is for Democrats. It's a year long budget deal coupled with a year long debt limit package, sidesteps the hundred billion dollars in cuts Democrats so desperately want to avoid it once again punch on Trump's border wall. This seems like too good to be true deal for Democrats, given the complications and cutting a deal with this White House. And here's what's on tap for Trump's Thursday. The president will meet with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and hold a meeting. Twelve five PM in Oval Office, followed by lunch in the cabinet room before Trudeau departs at one twenty five pm subscribe to playbook at politico dot com slash playbook.

Joe Biden President Donald Trump Herman Talmadge president America Anna Palmer Justin Trudeau White House Jake Sherman Senator Ted Kennedy Jim Clyburn FOX George Stephanopoulos Chevy Chase Alexandria Causey Cortez Tom Steiner young survival coalition South Carolina Mark Putnam
1947: Matt Bai & Jason Reitman: "We're at a point where politics are entertainment"

The Chuck ToddCast: Meet the Press

23:36 min | 2 years ago

1947: Matt Bai & Jason Reitman: "We're at a point where politics are entertainment"

"Ladies and gentlemen, we invite you to meet the primate apprentice depress. Joining me now are mad by and Jason Reitman. Matt is the author of the book all the truth is out the week politics went tabloid, which chronicles the story of Gary Hart, and Jason is the director of the new film the front runner, which is based on the book by Mr. by welcome to both of you. All right. Matt by Gary Hart. It's funny to go back and think nineteen eighty-seven when he drops out that is now thirty one years ago. I think about when you and I started covering campaign politics, basically in the Clinton era. This would be the equivalent of trying to tell somebody about Barry Goldwater rise. Yeah. Right, right. It's a story. People don't either to you probably don't know always much as they realize they remember, but they remember wrongly, you know, because there's a lot of facts misperception that are actually misperceptions about the story that are sort of seared into our collective memory. And then aren't right. And so I think even people who remember the story the film, you know, will will be surprising. And and compelling, what are the biggest myths, you feel like people think they know about Gary Hart? Jason I mean that in this story that it will be. Oh, wait, I thought it was that when I tell people when I started telling people on the I'm gonna make a movie about the Kerry heart scandal. I would generally say one of three things I would say oh monkey business was just get family feud. What are the words you think of monkey business would be? And then they would say follow me. And I think there was this understanding that somehow Gary Hart challenged the press to follow him. And then they did when in fact, the following quote came out in article the same day that the article. From the Miami Herald came out, so they were already staking them out. I don't think one it wasn't caused out. One was not following the other and the third is they bring up Donald rice. And and they bring up her name. As she was not a human being, but more as an object, the blonde on the boat, and the more that I got to know her I found a woman who is smart and who aspired to a lot and whose life was kind of just taken from her hand. So I found the story immediately fascinating. And look I was ten years old when this happened. I really only knew these names as names, and it was only through match book that I became aware of this story and found it fascinating immediately met. Why do you think Ted Kennedy didn't get this treatment in one thousand nine hundred eighty? Gary Hart did. Yeah. There is a way in which you can point to people in Ted Kennedy would be chief among them where before nineteen eighty-seven right personal. It's not that personal lives. Never matter. It's not that they never come into view. There's never scandal right involving marriages. It's that when it happens first of all it bursts into our politics and has to be covered, right? No one goes looking for Chappaquiddick wasn't a story. Anybody created it had to be covered. And when it happens, it's not all consuming in that it can threaten your political career. It can be an existential crisis. You know, some Rockefellers another good example right of someone who went through having personal life dissect it, but but he goes on to become vice president Ted Kennedy goes onto become Ted Kennedy. Right. We gave people context they weren't all entirely defined by that moment. Suddenly nine hundred eighty seven. Not only will people go looking for the evidence of an extramarital affair. But when that scandal breaks is all consuming like a wildfire. Hearts hearts, literally driven from public life for good. And and so the question you raise right one. It's the one we ask in the film. You know, why why does it happen? Why am and like, well, how did he become the because because less about him and more about the mall because of the things happening in the culture of the effects of Watergate, the effects of the majority of the rise of feminism the birth of satellite technology, the birth of journalism punditry, right? All of this is churning in nineteen Ninety-seven. And when it collides it creates this this incredible moment of change. And that's what drew us to to do the film. Jason when you're watching the film people are inevitably going to be thinking about probably Bill Clinton, Donald Trump. You know, what I mean when you think about people that became president with high profile, extramarital affairs? How do you dress that how are how why is that? Yeah. It is that you're saying the movie is timely green. Is it almost it? Will you worry actually that people will look at it too much through that one? No, I look I think this is the question that's on our minds. You know, we're at a point where politics are entertainment. You know, we don't stand by the water, cooler and talk about last night soprano episode. We talk about what's happening in this city. We talk about right now, we're talking about Cavanaugh. So you mentioned. Yeah. Are you finding people talking politics more today than they did five years ago? Absolutely. You wake up in the morning. It's the first thing you look at it never used to be an LA thing. I mean, you guys side other things lots. There was people in entertainment, deeply involved in politics, and look Warren Beatty, and and Gary Hart report, but and and I think we've had a president who wasn't actor. But but no not like today. And I you know, I I wasn't alive in the late sixties. And I know that was a moment and wish her it was a lot of Hollywood involvement in politics. But no right now, I mean, this is the first conversation that I have with every single person. I talked to. You know, it's interesting about nineteen eighty-seven. There's also the near the caring's. And the Iran country in the country. And there was always something to me about heart. And that I and I connected. That's interesting now. I connected them probably because they happen at the same time. But I also find myself, that's. Win the phrase politics of personal destruction started to get used a lot in the nineties the first year. I thought about it going backwards. They can eighty seven John tower two years later John tower beating nine right that we were in a mode of tear down in the mid to late eighties. Stop. No, but maybe the bar of tearing people down got higher. I think look look this is something we raise in in the film. I think is an important point. Which is what you're describing. Right is a is a new obsession with character with trying to determine the the mental emotional moral fitness of leaders in a way, we didn't for nine hundred eighty seven. Well, what what we were doing the film, and we wrote the screen by together with with Jay Carson, the three of us collaborate on the screenplay JJ longtime political operative exactly worked for the Clintons. The question. The film is really about asking questions. It's a message movie in the questions are what do you? How do you determine moral fitness and character, what do you need to know? And you know, and how much context is required for it. And how far should we go to bring that to you? And we don't the film isn't making judgments about that. It's following a lot of different perspectives reporters and operatives candidate, obviously and people caught up in the scandal and constantly sort of asking you evaluate the different perspectives arguments that hopefully you come out of the theater having an argument about it. How do you tell the story of the more morality debate in the movie, you know, is this do you have a is is there a figure in the background? That is the voice of sort of how to ask these questions. It's a great question. And look I think we knew the plot of this movie going in the plot is what it is. We understand to figure out how and why we're gonna tell the story, and we decided to make this a story that is told from the outside in. It's a dozen people trying to understand heart from the outside heart was in the 'nigma hearts a person that his own close, friends and loved ones are trying to figure out to this day. So we're following to figure about. Yeah. Fascinated so I mean, he's an incredible test case is a guy who was brilliant and had great ideas, but was also flawed and made mistakes. So we try to follow a group of journalists young old nave thea mail people on his campaign team, his family members. They're the they're the storytellers for you. I mean, particularly in the first half the film, we were on the outside trying to figure out hard. Through them and understanding all of their perspectives, depending on whether they're the poster at the herald or on his campaign, and it's not really until the second half where we are spending more and more personal time with him. And we're asking the audience to understand him. But also ask themselves in what is important in. What is relevant? I know you had some Gary Hart time, but he didn't he doesn't love dealing with this topic. And yet he does want to it can't be a surprise. And yet he hates me. There's no doubt he hates being defined by it. Sure. And I've I've spent wouldn't you of course. But I've always been surprised he's never still tried to if he forced himself into the public arena more the story would fade. That's the irony. The the less he's in the arena, the more. He's find by the store. So this is the interesting. This is an interesting sort of chicken and egg question, right. If Gary Hart had gone at any time on rehabilitation tour, if he'd given a tier of the second campaign here wasn't the one man caravan campaign for Iowa, no. He's been months going around talking tiny audiences and wasn't much of redemption to if he had gone out a couple of years later, if he'd written the tell all memoir if you'd asked for public forgiveness for governor Cup dragged is dragged his family and run for drag his family in front of the cameras. You know, probably yes, what you've been able to come out of that moment. Probably. But he doesn't because he believes that's too great a cost for serving in public life. And there's something dignified and wrong about subjecting yourself or your family to that kind of disclosure, and I guess the question is is that what we used to define as character. Is that a desirable quality leader? Or do we want a process that only rewards people who will do whatever it takes subject, their families to whatever indignity? I'm not answering that question. But I think it's an important. I've thought about this with Brad cabinet like, you know, there's I've put myself in his shoes into simply it's like you believe you're innocent. What point is this too much to put my family through regardless of whether I'm principle, you think you should fight. This like you're struggling it's a dad, I get that seems to be a real struggle. How do you? How do you have keep your dignity, keep your family clean and at the same time fight Gary Hart? I guess didn't wanna fight. Well. I think he had a different idea of what was relevant, and what did people deserve to know. And we're talking about human curiosity. We want to know who these politicians are as human beings. And there seems to be a moment in the eighties when things shifted and we really had a deep interest. And we thought we deserve to know. And and that responsibility seem to fall onto the shoulders of journalists to figure out this information for us and what we're continue to argue about to this day. And and the midst these. Supreme court Justice hearings is what should we know? What do we actually want to know? So Matt nineteen eighty-seven gives us Gary Hart in nineteen Ninety-two. Mark halperin. Infamously hands Bill Clinton. He's the young ABC reported handsome, the star newspaper. Showing Jennifer flowers, and I bring his name up because some people say he helped change a certain style of politics. I've been blamed for for being at the hotline, which also covered politics hotline was in early. I would argue we were writing for professionals we weren't getting for the mass public. So we weren't we didn't horse race up regular journalism others did that. We just screw up twenty five years of political journalism starting in nineteen eighty-seven. Did we inadvertently do that you're laughing because you think yes? No to you. Very honest. Looking forward to the answer though. I I want to introspects with the best of them. So I'm no, look, I think we started. I think the culture changed, and I think we've struggled to figure out how to navigate that. And I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. Because I frankly, I think every point every case is different. There's no rule book for this. But I think the decision's those reporters may is as we depict them in nineteen eighty-seven the decisions people made in nine hundred ninety two I think we've we've continued to wrestle with this. And I think if I have any criticism of my own industry, it's not that in the movie, we certainly don't depict journalists as being all in the wrong. I mean, everybody there's a everybody's decisions or under scrutiny and everybody's complex. But I think. For me. It comes down to sort of a personal responsibility and choice that the thing. We've always believed that I think operatives believed politicians believes this thing is just it's a current. It's too powerful for any of us. It's just all out there. You have to do it. Because everyone else is doing it. And you have to behave this way because everyone else behaves this way. And I think maybe what we lost sight of along the way that we got to make choices as individuals as individual organizations, and you don't just have to go wherever the current leads you by the way, because I don't think I don't think you've mentioned it. Hugh Jackman is really fabulous year in this year. Let's see the trailer try here. Takes a foreigner. Blaine American always does you guys in Hollywood you just don't trust Americans planes. I'm I'm Canadian. So let's see there. He goes Canadians who get it. Can we remind people with Gary Hart actually did the sin? The his said, we don't know what Kerry heart did. I mean. I mean, that's the we think he had a relationship with Donna rice. Yeah. That said look, this is a we even know if anything happened. That's my point. I mean, this is worry about a very public story about two very private people. Gary hart. You know, who was the presumed next president. He he was the front runner for the presidency. And on rice. It was a young woman from Florida and they met on a boat called the monkey business. And the Miami Herald got a tip about their relationship and follow Donna rice to his townhouse in DC and became a moment. We're Gary Hart Kim aware that there was someone outside sticking them out. And he went outside did a kind of little walk around the neighborhood to see if anyone is following him and wound up in his alleyway with some journals from the Miami Herald, you said you feel you know, Tom feeling who said, you know, what's going on inside your townhouse right now. And it's response was you can't ask me that. And as a filmmaker that's a movie, I mean, that's a that is a thriller. And it is really that happens to speak to the questions that we continue to talk about today. Tom Fiedler have any regrets met? Essentially Jason's talked to him most recently because I see in the film. I mean. Say I up in Miami. Tom Fiedler is somebody. Yeah. You know, great journalists, and I I definitely looked up. He just watch the film, you know. And I don't think he I don't think he has regrets. I think he has a continuing. Reflections. You know? I think he understands he understands that they're different sides of it. I think he feels very comfortable with the decisions he made. But he's not about revisiting them. That's an accurate it's fair. I mean, look he described the moment of being at the herald at the moment that heart dropped out of the race. And people at the Miami Herald cheered. And he was kind of hiding himself and said he was crying comfortable how people cheered. Yeah. But this is that's. You're not being a journalistic organized. What do you cheer it? I mean, I just don't get it. I guess it made them feel better that hey, they brought down a candidate. Is that what they were cheering? I think they had a moment as a paper. And but you're right. There's something uncomfortable about that idea. And look, I I have a lot of empathy for Donna and for Gary Hart, but I also have empathy for Tom fee. I can't imagine what I would do if I was at journalists in that position. And I felt like I had a hot lead and in nineteen eighty-seven. Yeah. Little trip nineteen eighty-seven. Let's not forget. I mean, I do think it does matter people need to understand moments in what the culture was that that that's we sometimes look at these things the prism of what things are now. Right. You know? And I think that that had to be the hardest thing to capture in the movie. Well, I mean, I was fortunate in that. I mean, look I would have never been able to tell the story on my L. And it was fortunate that I didn't only have Matt's book but met fine. Jay Carson, we're onset every day and. As we went to to make this film. We were trying to get the details. Right. But I knew that when we're recreating the of the Washington Post that Matt was going to be there. And he was going to be speaking to the detail when I knew we were creating the campaign office. Jay Carson who had been a press secretary for Hillary Clinton and Howard Dean was sitting there and telling the phone bankers. This is what you're saying on the phone. And this is why you're saying on the phone and be speaking. The details in the movie are hopefully accurate. What's Gary Harkin? Think of this movie. Oh, you've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. I brought it to Denver and try showed it to Donna. I showed it to Gary and lay I should've Tom Fiedler. His first reaction was to ask his wife, Li do I really talk like that? And Lee said yes, darling. That's exactly hey, you speak. So he's sort of like. Wow. By the way, he's still a great head of hair. He does he is great, man. You got a great mind. Yeah. He's deeply aware of everything that's happening politically and as early eighties. Yeah. And he's still, you know, younger than probably ten percent of the United States that's becoming. Let's not say, right. Gary hart. Has this incredible mind loves foreign policy? You know, he was basically probably the Democrats at the time in the eighties. Their best person to talk about the Soviet Union in dealing with the Cold War. And all of that that was that is what that was his sweet spot. And Democrats treated him as a pariah in the nineties. Didn't they? Well, I think you know, this this character idea became so overwhelming in our politics. It was tough enough for President Clinton to overcome. And then I think, you know, there's it's true during the Clinton years Gary Hart wanted very much to serve and the people around President Clinton felt it was just too toxics four Bill Clinton being who he was to have an association with Gary Hart, and there there's a tragic art to the storm in the story, we tell in the movie is is a sort of tragedy in in its own way with its own arc in its own end. But the years afterward are their own tragedy because hard spend all those years in exile really wanting to be of Houston service to his country and not wanting to violate the own his own dignity as he saw it or to grovel in some way, and he really was deprived of of the opportunity to serve and I think we were deprived or something. And he's not the only one the point of that is I think we create a process where a lot of people don't want to serve a lot of people are. Driven from public life. And oh, it invites a certain kind of shamelessness and the people who do want to serve and why we're asking people to do is reflect on that process. If you ask, you know, ask an audience of people, how many people think the process is working nobody will raise their hand. And we're we're just I think the the film leaves you hopefully with a lot of questions, and and and reflections about how it got that way Donald rice, and we always cover sex scandals to the prison with a man and the woman is. A character a supporting cast never always treated as sort of not necessarily as a victim. But as like, maybe part of the maybe helped sometimes blamed for this. How do you? How will how will today's millennial woman? Think of how you treat it Donna rice in this movie. Well, I can tell you what Donald rice thinks of the film, and he thought that had a lot of empathy for her kind of empty that. I think she's been looking for over the last few decades and hasn't received, and I mentioned this earlier when I bring up, you know, when I brought her obituary is going to have that in Hurley. Yeah. And it's not only their obituary. I mean, it's a life. It's her life, Monica Lewinsky. Yeah. And you know, Donna is a smart educated young woman who aspired to a lot and as had kind of live with this and also lived through the scandal at a time when there was no playbook. They she didn't know what lawyer to call or what sort of the. I mean, what was the the before her the most famous affair was fanny, FOX and the tidal basin. But that was why Wilbur mill. Yeah. I mean like they weren't. He was he that. 'cause they're getting right there. We'll mills. Well, well done. Thank you. Show enough in front of JJ. I'm very impressed with either. But donna. I had a tremendous amount of empathy for her and I wanted to get her story. Right. And look there's a way that we structure this movie where I know the conception going in. I know that how people see on it in their heads. They think of her as a blonde on a boat. And as we go into the film. I know that this is anticipation of the moment we were going to get to that boat and meet this woman, and what we didn't have film as you don't meet her on the boat. You have to wait for the film that defined by the both. This isn't movie that is frenetic and has a lot of energy. And you're meeting all these characters, and you're you're at the paper, and you're at the campaign, and then all of a sudden the scandals come out and the movie stops. And the first time you meet Donna, she's a woman who is broken whose life has been stolen from her. And she's crying and camera just sits on her, and you have to kind of take your own presumptions and put them in check and look at her as a human being. Gary hart. If this doesn't happen to Gary Hart is Bill Clinton, never president United States. Donald Trump ever-present United States about by. You know, it's impossible to know. And they're two separate questions obviously impossible to know. I certainly think Bill Clinton learned from what happened to Gary Hart. I certainly think Bill Clinton was better equipped to deal with that environment. Then Gary Hart, head Clinton been the first team might still have triumph because for all the reasons I've talked about the process, I think he was he has the skill set and the willingness to do things that were different from. Where was the president? Trump question is very interesting because one of the things that happens in one thousand nine seven, then I think is depicted. Well, in the film is the collision of entertainment and politics. It's the it's the way we cover celebrities. Now the way we're going to cover politicians, and when you create a process where you treat politicians celebrities. I think it is probably inevitable that you will all your celebrities into your politics person. You really have to blame. It's all started with Walter wind chill at Jason Reitman. And with that, I will drop will drop that little thing in the Punchbowl and let people ruminate on that congratulations on the movie anything looking forward to it's the front runner. Hope you like it you to Jason right? Men met by thanks for joining us, a nineteen forty seven to meet the press podcast. If you like what you heard then you can subscribe for free and apple podcasts. Tune in or Spotify. We back next week. Thanks for listening to we upload again. Thanks for listening to the nineteen forty seven podcasts from NBC's. Meet the press with Chuck Todd. You can listen to MSNBC twenty four hours a day seven days a week on tune in.

Gary Hart President Clinton Donna rice president Jason Reitman Miami Herald Matt Ted Kennedy Tom Fiedler Donald rice Gary Hart Kim Donald Trump Kerry Barry Goldwater United States Jay Carson Hollywood Gary Harkin Mark halperin Gary
652: John Kerry on Leadership, Compromise, and Change

HBR IdeaCast

24:31 min | 2 years ago

652: John Kerry on Leadership, Compromise, and Change

"Welcome to the idea cast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah green Carmichael. We often look to the leaders of private companies to give us advice on how to manage people. But there are many lessons to be learned from the public sector as well. Today's guest has served in a number of high-profile public roles from an assistant district attorney to a US Senator to secretary of state, but John Carey started out in the US navy who's the military training from start to finish that taught me management skills that taught me leadership accountability hierarchy. All of those things that are critical to any kind of organizational structure and everybody knew what they were doing. And everybody knew what they have to do if somebody else couldn't do what they were doing learn to take care of each other and move quickly exercise. Command decisions also just being on a ship. Having responsibility for large division on a five hundred thirty five foot ship that has huge crew. Those are great lessons. John Carey is the author of the book every day is extra and he recently sat down at his home with Harvard. Business review senior editor Alison beard. She started by asking why he decided to go into public service. It is the single most effective best way to get real things done with Uncle Sam paying the bills of your telephone on your air flight and your day to day existence. I mean when you're in more said side. Outside advocacy group, you are constantly raising money. And I was there for a while in the politics of organizing and working to change things from the outside, and you spend so much of your time just trying to keep the organization live. And I felt that the best way you could do things is baked the government work go into the public arena and build the movement through the United States Congress who the laws that we pass through the relationships between senators and states, and and the branches of government, I thought that was really the most effective way to do it. And for a long period of time. It has been it is. Yeah, I was struck by the similarity in your description of becoming captain of your first crew and your first day as secretary of state talk to me about what a great leader does on the very first day. They've taken over a tea. Well, I don't know about the definition of the word great with respect. To that. But certainly competent and hopefully fact approach is to listen, but also to come in with a clear. Defined set of goals and standards that people understand right up front early on. I think one of the greatest deficits of leaders ship is not to lead to have an ability to command respect for the notion that, you know, where you're going, you know, where you wanna go, but you're respectful of the other people is not just domination by virtue being there and being appointed. If people don't respect you if they don't think, you know, what you're doing if they don't know. They have a sense of doubt about what the mission is. Or how it's going to be carried out. You got a problem? And that I think that's true on a on a military mission. I think it's true in politics in life and business, whatever. So over the years, you've assembled and managed many many teams campaign teams your Senate office at the State Department. How do you pick the people who work for you? I look for people are smarter than me. And that's not too hard. Must be it must be slightly heart. No, I think that I look for people who will say no to me. I look for people who are have their own mind. I rely on my own confidence in my own judgment to have people around or give me country and points of view. But I want to see all the pluses and all the minuses and then make the cut, and that's the job of the decider and what your quality of decision making is. And how you approach it is is part of what will make your leader and separate you. But I think I mean, I really do look for people who know a lot about one thing or another or about we're trying to get done. And I want people who are strong minded people who will not just say what I wanna hear. Or they think I wanna hear I want. People are going to offer creative exciting thoughtful approaches to. Big challenges. And then when I made the decision be ready to go out and be a team player and help implement right? If used to happen that congressmen and senators themselves could find common ground and do it without sort of an electoral uprising, so what was happening before that's not happening now that needs to be brought back. You know, what are some of those? Yeah. But how do you how do you achieve that achieve it? With people who make the decision that's important to the country you achieve it by people standing up courageously and saying I'm not going to get dragged into this party orthodoxy of one tribe or another tribe within our political structure, I'm gonna fight to do what's best for the country and to keep the bipartisanship of the United States Senate on track. John McCain, and I did that and I wasn't alone. Among the people who did that John McCain did it with Russ Feingold in campaign finance? He did it with other people. It wasn't alone back then there were other senators who are prepared to engage in that kind of bipartisan activity, Ted Kennedy and Orrin Hatch mean there, plenty of examples. You talk in the book about compartmentalizing is that something we need to do what you need to always compartmentalize. Because there's always vote the next day. Life doesn't end the day. There's a vote that you lose. And one of the things that I talk about in the context of the title of the book every day is extra. Means not just that you're lucky if you're alive and others weren't and you got a responsibility to do certain things. But it also means there are a lot worse things folks than losing the debate or losing vote or losing an election. And when you have that measure, the you begin to put things in their proper perspective, the American people elect representatives to go to Washington get the job done, and we don't have a budget year after year when we don't change something that everybody knows is broken like immigration, and you don't do it. Because you wanna drive the issue as a wedge issue in order to exploit politics, then we are are complicit in in. What we get right now. What we have in the country is gridlock dysfunctional representation in non representation, in many cases. And everybody's angry about it. Right. Center. People all get it. Right. It's interesting because in your role as secretary of state, you did need to bring people to the table who were arch enemies and felt they had absolutely nothing in common and those the part of compartmentalization in the context of diplomacy. Yeah. You know, that what Putin is doing what Russia has been doing in our elections is absolutely unacceptable. What Putin has done with little green men running around and uniforms that have no insignia on them in Ukraine is unacceptable. What he did in Crimea is unacceptable, and we stood up to that. We brought in place very strong. Sanctions we had a profound impact we have about. The problem has been solved a number of different reasons, but you have to compartmentalize that because at the same time as that's going on you're working with Russia to get the chemical weapons. The declared chemical weapons out of Syria, you're working with Russia on the Iran. Nuclear agreement whereby the way Russia was actually extremely helpful. So you compartmentalise you have to do it. Ronald Reagan compartmentalized when he focused on the evil empire. But then called on Gorbachev to meet with them in Reckitt Vic, and and at a summit and decided we've got to get rid of these nuclear weapons, we're locked into wasteful insane arms race, that's compartmentalization in a way that results in positive outcomes. It's the only way to run a large nation. It's the only way to be effective as either it's the only way to make important things happen on the global stage. There have definitely been some huge setbacks that you've had in your life, not least the presidential election. So once something like that happens. How do you reset and recover and come back? Well, I think you look at what the alternative is. And you have to consciously decide that's a stupid alternative. I mean, I just made the decision. I was not going to be bowed by this. I was not going to stop. I was not going to quit all the things. I was fighting for didn't suddenly go away. And in the the election wasn't fundamentally about. I mean, I didn't look at it is affecting me as much as affected the things we were fighting for the issues we wanted to advance the Genda that we were pursuing and that agenda has continues to need champions people who are going to fight for it. People are gonna continue. So the idea of just. Crying my teacup, and and and disappearing and becoming a hermit or pulling away from the field seem to me to be a pre stupid choice. And I just consciously decided I'm not going there. I'm going back to work you when you write about healthcare and passing about McCarron the book, you talk about not making perfect the enemy of good, which I feel like is advice that lots of people in business settings could use to. So tell me a little bit more about the benefits. But then also the downsides because obviously there's been a lot of criticism. I think that. The example of. Ted Kennedy who talked about how he had a choice, and he was trying to get way back in the early in his career. He was trying to get a partial healthcare Bill passed and the healthcare community and other advocates and other members of congress had. No, no, no, no. We've got a hold out for, you know, single payer, and we're gonna get single payer, which is a fully paid governed kind of program. And what happened is they got nothing and what they were choosing between would've advanced the healthcare system by thirty years. It would have been closer to what we what we did with ObamaCare, but it wasn't full-fledged single player. Right. And teddy faced that he thought they ought to be tried to. But they made the mistake of not doing it. And they got nothing but thirty five years, right? So I argue and others argued when the healthcare Bill came up, and again, you had people are this isn't enough we need to get more. No, sometimes sometimes you need to take what you can get and build on it. And and that's a very important lesson to anybody in anything. I think that you can you know, you can cut off your nose despite your face, right, right? You talk about your time in the Senate, and you talk about working relationships and working the process, especially when you were a junior Senator with out much a thorny or influence, so talk about that working the relationships in working the process. Well, a lot of politics been all politics. I believe it's not just local tip O'Neill said, it's also personal politics is personal people care about whether or not you get them you understand what their lives like whether or not you can empathize with their lives and see how difficult it may be in certain circumstances, the things, and and and it matters that you're. There for people when they're in crisis when they're down or so forth. That's the personal part of it. If you build relationships in the Senate where you recognize the difficulties your colleague may be having in the different kind of state with a different set of issues with different constituency with just the different political life. If you understand that life, and if you can get that person understand you care about them and their future. You're not just asking them to walk the plank. You're sensitive to how you could shape. Whatever it is you're working on to help them. Boy, you can get a lot of things done. If people like if people have a sense of who you are people will be more willing to try to help. So I believe that the building of a relationship in which it's not all take. But it's there's give takes much farther and understanding the other person's plight and trying to shape a solution that meets the other person's needs those personal steps that make an enormous difference in outcomes another line that struck me. I think probably because it really hit home. Personally, was I thought that the work would stand for itself you were talking about nineteen Ninety-six those things I'd accomplished I'd accomplished. I thought a fair amount. In state Senate, I've been working on a fair number of different issues and add been I thought fairly effective at getting things but passed, but people here at home didn't know that some. Of them. Right. And that's partly because I didn't spend the time selling it beating your own chest. It was a little bit. I just figured hey, people follow the process, they're going to know that this happened and just didn't work that way, you've got to for better or worse. It's a process of educating people the process of getting the word out, and and creating enough awareness of what you're doing for people that they feel connected to you. So you have had one of the more demanding careers that anyone in the world had and you also have a family. So I'd love to hear about your principles for balancing those two. Well, I've been very blessed to have family that were extremely supportive. What I was doing and helped me make up gaps when there were gaps and sometimes there were gaps. I mean, I missed a game on a Wednesday or Friday that I wanted to be at or and this the play or something and there was agony. When you did. Because those the things that make a lot of difference to children need this to say. I worked very very hard at getting home. I never spent a weekend in Washington DC for eighteen years. I would plow, and I would fly home sometimes during the week in order to be there for an event and then go back to Washington, and you know, made in the normal difference to me and on weekends certain weekends. I'd be back home. And and the kids would be with me, and I relished that. And we had a lot of fun, but it was always complicated. Because always demands if you're in public life, there isn't any given day where you couldn't be somewhere where you think, hey, it's important for me to be there. And you really have to learn how to say, no, I'm not doing that. Or that's not as important as I'm, you know, pretending it is or think it is have tried very hard to be there for them. And I dedicate the book to all of my grandchildren and to there. Parents. I should note. Also that we're in your home with your lovely labrador. Who is so happy that you're home. I guess I I into way. Yeah. He's my his my mature causing my son. And he I hope I don't think he's been breathing into the Mike knows. But he's but he's adorable and just laying which is says we shouted at us. So obviously carrying on the career that you've had maintaining your family even decisions to sort of start public life after your servants in Vietnam as a protester and then go to law school. You know, these are all decisions that you were able to make because you came from a very well off family, and then continue turn a lot of money, and so lead a privileged life. So what advice would you give to people who don't sort of come from those means let me let me correct one thing that you want the record to be clear. Okay. Yes. I came from a very defined kind of privilege, and there's no question about that. But as I say in the book, we were not rich, right? And I was comfortable I didn't have to worry about where the next meal would come from. But I never had enormous amounts of independent funds. And so it was important for us. We lived within a budget. We lived within our means and there were times in my life. And I was living. Check to paycheck like a lot of people. So I understood those challenges believe me. And I was never in the private sector for a long period of time briefly practicing law, I made some money while I was practicing law, but that was not my choice in life. I wanted to serve I wanted to be in public life. So now, obviously, my wife is very well off, and and but that's her. So my representation of people has been based on my own upbringing, and my own circumstances, which have always been sensitive to how hard it is for some people to try to be able to make ends meet and still remain connected to that absolutely. Is going to be sort of? What's your career advice to people who are starting from nothing? Well, my career advice is if you want to be I think public life has changed. Now, I think you can go in and out of public life in ways that you couldn't have previously. I mean, the sort of the the ladder of were. Working up through the congress and the Senate and so forth. And so on I think that's changed. So I've advise a lot of young people. Look, if you really wanna go into public life, you need to make sure your family is going to be able to manage it. And that you're going to be able to manage it within the context of your family, and maybe you ought to go into business for five or ten years and make a certain amount of money. And no, you've got a cushion. So that you can not cheat your kids with respect to school, or, you know, find yourself in difficulties that might affect your choices as a as a member of congress, or whatever it is you to do I think you can easily go run for the Senate and run for congress nowadays or anything else without having gone through the latter necessarily the same way as a lot of other people have I think that's partly because the media's changed also because the political Plainfield has changed. So my advice to people is have a community have. Base of some kind. Engaged in civic community, not necessarily an electoral office. And then when you feel ready when you feel please get involved, please run for office. Please be involved because we desperately need more public citizens. We need more people who come in or go out for whom it's not necessarily the lifetime every day, but who care about making our democracy work. And I think there's a I think a lot of people unfortunately been scared away from it because of the public scrutiny because of the disclosures the intrusiveness the transparency a lot of people just don't want to live that way, given the dysfunction that you currently see in our government what role. Do you think that business place in society, you know, d- think that people can have corporate careers and make a difference in that way without any question whatsoever. In fact, I think it is under. Described and under recognized, I know fabulous corporate citizens at the high level of CEO or chairman of the board all the way through the ranks of a corporation, and increasingly corporations are exercising responsibility. That is making up for the deficits of government, the private sector. I have learned through the years. I mean, I talk about this constantly that the private sector moves faster has much better channel of decision making in many cases because they don't have to worry. You know, it's not a democracy, and therefore they can move O can make the decision this what we're doing, and he rises falls or she rises and falls by virtue decision and may affect their individual retirement plan or stockholdings, but it. You know, if it all is done, well and works out, right? They can make an enormous difference for children for schools for infrastructure for countless numbers of choices. And I'm I'm working with a number of those companies and have worked with those kinds of companies encouraging them to do more. I mean there is too. So I mean Bank of America today, and I serve in the international advisory board, and that institution is committed hundred twenty five billion dollars to energy sustainable, energy, and to helping in the transformation and does a lot of other work with respect to necessary public sector enterprises that otherwise wouldn't necessarily make it I think all corporations have that responsibility. And our country will be stronger and better and people frankly will be in some cases less hostile than they are in the political structure towards corporate engagement because they see them. Constructively trying to make a difference terific. Thank you so much for your time. It's really been a delightful conversation. My pleasure. Thank you very much for your patience. Oh now. He's Ben the dog is wonderful. He was the principal diplomat. Should be met a lot of foreign ministers. So he was with you the whole time you were. State. He was in the department. All right. Well, thank you so much again pleasure. That's John Kerry. He's a former US secretary of state and the author of the memoir every day is extra. He was interviewed by HP. Our senior editor else beard. Is that was produced by Mary do and Kurt Nick we got technical and production help from rob Eckhart, Adam uphold. Adam uphold audio products manager. Thanks for listening to the HP. Our idea guest, I'm Sarah being.

United States Senate Congress US Senator Washington Sarah green Carmichael Russia senior editor Ted Kennedy Harvard Business Review John Carey John McCain Harvard Putin Alison beard Ronald Reagan John Kerry
La Maupin

Citation Needed

30:53 min | 2 years ago

La Maupin

"Jesus fucking Christ. Don't complain because you can't handle Chun Li cdot. He's fucking so broken though. Ziti you ever consider. Maybe you just suck sees so. Gins so g. want him in the middle of something. He interrupt him while he's getting his ass handed him by Chun Li. Sorry. Sorry, I need to borrow a sore bags in the co. Closet core. Don't wanna. Fuck it. Chief. Air, throw, dude, what do you need a sword for though when you're talking about? I am inspired by this week's topic. So I am headed to say Illinois fucking doing marseils. It's not about the destination. It's it's about the journey at his dumbest. Fucking thing I've ever heard that is because you aren't an artist. Make a living. So. Anyway, which of these is what would have us seventeen sensory France. That'd be brench small sort. That's a long that's literally the biggest sort in there. I don't. I don't know about swords, but you do speak English right thought it was like a reverse nickname. It's the small sword this. That's a sweat rapier this that's a mortuary sword. Okay. I am not dead, so I can't use that. This one that is a scab. Yep. That said. So the last one in the Bank. So how do you use it. Pointy end goes in the other guy. Got it. All any. I'll be back. No. What is having a sword have anything. Just just, you just go go. Fucking cheap, throw fucker helicopter kick. Hello and welcome to citation needed the podcast where we choose a subject, read a single article about it on Wikipedia and pretend we're experts because this is the internet and that's how it works. Now, I'm Eli Bosnich and I'll be conducting this chorus, but I'll need some stuff fill up the benches. I up two men were kicked out of Anita Hill's hearing for going moon ice. And by the way, my fingers were like that because I was playing the circle game the what if you look at it, I get the punch, you classic game. Then all of a sudden I'm a Nazi. I had no idea about all your stories with you suddenly being nuts. Below the waist. Everybody knows. Kicked out of all the hearings that I go to. It's kind of a hobby of mine at this point. So I don't be judging. Why is everyone. That's fair, not and also joining us tonight. Two men old enough to have known today's subject in person, no and seesaw. A doesn't count as old. If I text the kids to stay off my in one. With Dinu. This lady before there was even grass on the lawn, but soda lover. So. Oh. Spoiler. Before we begin tonight likes to take a moment to thank our patrons. They donate as little as a dollar to keep our dashing Dula sin DNR's you like to learn how to join their ranks, be sure to stick around to the end of the show. And with that out of the way, tell us what person place thing concept, phenomenon or event will be talking about today. Today we are talking about Julie dob ni better known as Mademoiselle more Paul or Lama pong, and she was a seventeenth century swords woman and opera singer. And Tom, you're pretty sure this was a food when you agreed to do the certain subject. Unfortunately, you ready to share your disappointment. I am, but I am pleased that see Seoul was first to pronounce the name even though I wrote this, I was desperate not to pronounce. I don't know if I don't. A million emails. Llama had babies. NAMA pan or Julie to Ave was a seventeenth century sword, fighter opera singer, and possibly the most French person ever born maybe I don't know. Sixteen seventy three. It's not really known for sure to guest on Yang secretary to the army who was the master of the horse for king Louis the fourteen now master the hormones, either something of a grand title or something, perhaps a perverse cobby. But in fact it was neither. Well, I was it was the guy who booked an cultures travel office. Roberts, they just fine. He's got a lot of options. No effect. The master of the horse was kind of a big deal and the secretary to the master of the horse. Julie's dad not so much. Julie's dad spent his life drinking heavily and teaching the kings pages to fence the master, a horse. The cops just like telling everybody off the battlement tube ounces through the tower through the porta Kalisz. Nothing than that. That that. In the session reference. No about to get that. This. Donalds water. The other either all. Probably why I got that job even get a porta cultist exist. Pronounced porpoise anyways. At times living in the stables with the horses. Julie group dressing as boy and living with the pages that are dad trained. And as a result, she was schooled in dancing and reading drawing and fencing, lots of fencing. As she became proficient handling the sword, her father's boss to come to Armenia, decided she'd make a good mistress at fourteen well British. Oh, that's eighteen in metric, but either way. I mean, going door to door was way easier when you owned all the doors. So. You're fine. But so I get where the fencing coz it would your mistress surprises you by saying, but I am not left handed that. And that extra finger is always helpful. I will send you can't just take a fourteen year old girls and mistress without some good cover story, not com to armagnac married off what what. Snot now it wasn't a sense. You can't just take a fourteen year. Old girl has mister. That's good cover story. They come to armagnac had married off to see your demo pan out that wrong, sir, sir, sir, pan. And she became met them. Nimmo pan for his part. Her husband received a nice job in the south of France and decided to leave his young bride at home. So basically the Comte armagnac bribing guy with a good job far away to get fake married to his child mistress. So he could keep her without scandal. Oh, the scandals gone now is gone. John. No, no, it's cool. She, she married a different molester. I'm molesting her ironically. Now to teach. Tire molesting. It's satire. Chris hands. Just like of course you are. Why don't you have a c- right here. Right here. I know I read a number of articles in addition to the Wikipedia on mall pan for this. And one of the things that I love are all of the inexplicable jumps in her story because you would think that all the effort put into secure his mistress that Maupin might stick around for a while with the Comte armagnac. Would you be very, very wrong. No one ever explains what happened to that relationship. But my pant evidently had better things to do than to be someone's kept side Ps, and she became involved in a system fencing master named sarong. She's awesome and right before that by the way, cops voice got way higher. Surrounds killed someone in a duel, and when he was about to be arrested for the crime Montana surrounds left Paris bound for Marseilles that you'd think as that guy's employer, you do whatever it took to keep him on stuff. I mean, he just really fucking good at his job. It's like. From goodwill hunting for math thing too. Or firing Kevin Spacey from house Accardi like you just saying, yes, this is sixteen eighty. Seven's heading off to Marseille is a bit rough and to make ends meet on the road Lhamo pan and surrounds made their way offering fencing exhibitions and singing, and taverns, and a local fairs, basic traveling, stab, and sing show mama, pen, dressed in men's clothing. Pretty much all the time, although not to conceal her Jenner. She just Doug that once during an incident known as the night of gasps are gender was called into question by some dumb ass thought she had to be a man. There's no woman could fend so well without hesitation, she pulled off her short to prove she was a woman. Presumably she had. I feel like Hillary Clinton was maybe two drinks max away from doing the same thing at the end of that last debate with Trump. Really close was like, fuck it. You're a rapist. We just found out how can I possibly lose. You know hill dog had dreams of around of that debate being a sword, fight. Dreams that around of the debate would be as sword fight. I also this random strangers standards. He like a proven to that do that. He was late. Pregnant ninety. So once in Marseilles she joined the opera now right there, like you said, something that you can do, but this is not just something that you do the operas like really hard to just join, particularly if you're sixteen and you probably smell like you've been traveling around fencing and stripping singing in bars. Okay. I mean, I think see, soul smells great. Whatever. That's a nice mask, the beard oil. Oh, it is. Just showed up and joined the fucking opera. I dunno, it doesn't sound to bully a bunch of architects when you have a sore. Directors just like the review I received in the time struck deeper than you'll saw. She's like, you're sure about that. You can be in the. All right, and then she got bored a recurring theme. So she dumped the fencing master and she fell in love with a young woman. The young woman's parents were less than thrilled with this arrangement. So they put the woman away in a convent avenue. So Loma did anyone would do she tracked her lover down snuck into the confident pretending to be a postulate, she grabbed eight dead nuns buddy because there were just dead. Notice lying around. What would chief done if there wasn't a dead nun in in the bed of her lover. And then she set the room on fire escape. Escaped, although Lomo pan was later tried in -centia for kidnapping, and arson embodies gnashing and failing to appear before the tribunal. And she was sentenced as a man to death by fire that affair that big affair with a young woman lasted three months gab, but she got bored decker was just a lay missionary. Joke. That's shit. Tits. Destroying shit threatening people ruining the lies a lover she drags around, whether I can see why people thought she was a man. Every sentence started with well, actually, but it ended with boobs coming out. So I can tell you from experience super confusing for people. Also public service note here, if you're thinking trying the dead, none switcheroo trick to abscond with your lever, check odor or nose with a mirror I it's harder to tell than you think with not. All right. The young woman return home probably very confused, and I'm just guessing here more than a little sore is lesbian sex harder in your mind, Tom, like. Private little rough around the edges sword play, and I'm doing it now. I'm there with you and Loma pan headed the pairs on her way in villa Purdue a nobleman salted, Loma pan. So they fought it too. She won drove her soared through his shoulder nice. The next day she asked after his health and discover that she had just skewered the Duke of Lyon son. So she went to pay him visit and they became lovers until he recovered from his wound and had to return to military service. They remained lifelong friends. He probably called off. Okay. Okay. Ladies, you just stab. He threw the show. Right away. Okay. Or maybe we'll just talk in person at that point now that you're right there. Stabbing me. Let's not commit texting. Let's just, you know, we would talk. I love hang on the road, not stabbing anyone for a while until she met and began an affair with the singer. Gabrielle Vincent seven art together. They headed to Paris with the hopes of joining the opera, except the Lama pan had a death sentence for like five crimes hanging over her head. If she got caught, they were going to set on fire. So she contacted her. I love lover the come to armagnac and ask for his help because I guess nobody is more interested in helping the former lover you abandon. But he did help possibly just because she's so much more interesting to watch a live than spit rose and the king for his part, not only pardoned her but allowed her to sing with the opera or maybe it's the thing or maybe it's because she's been on a Mickey and Mallory, ask murder spree for her entire post Pugh Bassin's. All right. Well, this show's not over until the fat lady sings and the Mamba just stabbed and then seduced her. So we'll take a quick break for everyone's favorite use to the interstitial music apropos of nothing. Welcome back to good morning, France. The only French morning show that has a guy with a mid western accent hosting it. Today's guest is an opera singer, a dualist and now celebrity chef Julie, something all big, neat. Fuck you, French. You're stupid language with too many letters. Julie welcome to the program as having made day Ambrose's. I'm. Why. No, it's eight AM time for why one? This guy gets it. Yeah, I do. I get it. So. All right. So Lum opn. What will you be cooking for us today? Well, I was going to make one turned out to be fucking pussy so I don't have any. No, I meant I meant what you're going to eat today. McCain chickens hours. This chicken Shula's my Laver, but now I am bored size Thapa was and now he sees. The why wine guy. He just yell and what temperature you gonna cook the chicken it. Well, I'm going to the room fire and when I come back, I'm going to eat whatever I can find of this chicken. Maybe. Fuck it's no promises. Okay. Well, we'll let Lhamo pan get to the setting of our studio on fire. Just don't touch that. Hey, Tom, appreciate you taking this call. Yeah, yeah, we know you're really busy and all, but we want to talk to you about the subject. You chose this week's essay. It's it's not that we didn't like it was actually really cool to learn about such an interesting character in history that we'd never heard of. And and this show can definitely use more strong female subjects. It's just that. It's just that she's French. Yeah, and that's not a bad thing like in and of itself. But you know, as soon as finds out, we're doing an episode about a French person, he's gonna wanna do a French accent. Yeah, we're not sure why, but allies. Got it in his head that he's really good at doing voices and and he's not. He's really, really not, and he's already managed to offend are Hispanic listeners are straying. Listeners are British listeners are Scottish listeners. Our listeners are Zulu listeners German listeners with his bad voice work. And I, I just I don't know that we can afford to offend yet. Another nationality. Oh, really? Are you? Okay, Tom, you sound a little. Weird flu. Gotcha. Anyway, the point is that we should be super careful about offering new groups of people for Eli to offend because our international listenership is already pretty low in the friendship looking for an excuse to extradite Eli for over a decade. Now, let's say that no, because I their voices a super. Indistinguishable from the real. Thank. They're not though you're wrong. Agree to disagree, but just the three of us all the live, don't you think it's pretty funny out, see Celo his jokes, he's not allies. Best friend, right. That's a funny joke that we are all together at heaven told ally about. Is that a joke because he's told me that he's deadly serious about that and that he'd gotten permission from a judge to shoot Eli if he showed up at his door on announced again. Oh, where did he say? What's known? No, that's a weird question for you to ask, but that that's what happened anyway, I guess since it's already written will will do this episode but just some food for thought the next time you picking a subject anyway, you go ahead and take some alka seltzer or something, and he'll better. Bug you, what's is it just me or to Tom sound like like he'd gained a lot of weight? Yeah, he usually sounds less pale and flabby. Yeah, weird. And we're back when we left off, we are about to hear a letter from sixty five people who the Mamba didn't seduce slash stab, Tom take us home Balas topical. When we record it. He's a supreme court Justice. Now. That's why. On that much. She had that baby a couple of weeks. Now. Says opera hired Lomo in sixteen ninety. They actually hired both her and her boyfriend and Lomo pen for her part. She wasn't just okay as an opera singer. She performed initially as a soprano, but later switched were more natural control to rain. And she was reviewed as having quote the most beautiful voice in the world. Well, originally that read the most beautiful voice of the world, oral stab you in the urea throw. But then she explained that last part wasn't supposed to go in the quotes. So it ended. She beauty to number of operas all of which are difficult to pronounce, and she was got him great at all of them. Although she famously did not get along well with other members of the company. In fact, you beat the shit out of some of the members of that company. Most notably beating the hell out of the famous singer, Louis Goulard Domenici which I feel like nailed that for nunciature. Oh yeah. So hard. You know if I wasn't such a feminist, I might think that getting all these fights might be partially her fault. She also engage in a public battle, the wits with her friend, seven art, Bevin Bevin three vineyards, and she not only one but became for a time. The talk of Paris. The fuck is a public battle with for reference. I come from time. Donald Trump is. Yeah, we're on a delay now. It's it's Pence. Now the rapier prevailed in both areas. She then fell in love with one of the singers who are self, the mistress of the grant. And when Loma pan was rejected by this woman, she tried to kill herself, but she was too good at defense. I'm assuming. Probably left with riposte comedic stress disorder. That's on point. Masturbating gets bored with herself, asteroid projects this she can leave herself. It's a whole thing. Sixteen ninety five at a society ball pan still, and always dressed as a man spotted a beautiful woman kissed her several no outrage at the impropriety and demanded a duel. Maupassant agreed to all of them. He told each to meet her outside at midnight and interns. She'd dueled all three men beat them all. And then walked back into the ball, a girl, just chase asset, three white nights, all the gamer, Gators just fucking employment. Awesome. But this is also a problem because again, dueling illegal. So she wants more had skipped town to avoid being on fire. She went to Brussels and she pretty much immediately became the mistress of Maximilian the second Emanuel, the electoral Bavaria. So on the run from the law, she shacked up with the ruler of Bavaria who was also incidentally the prince elector of the holy Roman empire turns out it's both who you know and who you blue. Shout the secret to my success from the fuck of rooftop. See. So damn. She was keeping her swords in her snoot. I mean, that is. All right, but a woman's gotta work. So he joined the opera in Brussels and she appeared in other unpronounceable performances. The heat having die down. She returned to Paris, and again, somehow rejoined the opera no idea how immediately got in trouble again this time for beating up or landlord, whatever best friends fatally stabbed someone in dual, but pretty much nothing came of any of this trouble presumably because it would be literally impossible to stop this juggernaut of sex death. They said the same thing about Ted Kennedy after he drowned that girl. Admit he was amazing and Queen of the night, right. That's excellent. Something like that. Seventeen o five here more operas, but a very famous up of writing guy wrote an opera specifically for her. Nailed it. Aren't had been fucking Ted Kennedy. That's some good stuff. You bring that up a lot. He. I. Agreeing to say you make that observational. Needs to be said, all right. So remember when you're at home, listening to Andre cameras, ten credit. The role of Clarendon was written just so this woman could sing, right? And that explains all the liner notes in the peace telling you not to stab or fuck anyone. Actually, I just write that on everything you own. When I visit. Last it was not all stabbings and operas and lovers taken who run the holy Roman empire in Bavaria Loma pan also fell deeply in love with a woman named Marie Louise Therese, they send a tear marquee Florence. Murray, however died possibly crushed under the unyielding weight of that. God damn name. Also crush pour l'amour pan heartbroken. Limo pan quit the opera, took refuge in a convent and sadly died adding to the stockpile of convent bodies. In seventeen five Lomo pan was thirty three when she died. So for those keeping count, that's eight lovers. Seven duels three opera houses and one fiery death sentence all in less than twenty years for life men and Tom. If you had to summarize what you learned in one sentence, what would it be? I am forty years old and I have wasted all of it. I learned that from every. I am Eli because it's part of the show and I sort of have all right. I'm gonna go first. How did Lama pan get away with being such a spoiled shitty, brat that started fight, stab people and lit, random places on fire, hey, influential friends. Okay. I'm have to agree to disagree. I think she was a shitty, spoiled, brat. But I do think the fire she started wore not random to say you have no question. I get this right by default. That's correct. Judges, I have a tougher one here for you. How did Lomo pan escaped punishment for her various crimes for so long, hey, her sheath was as good as their sword be being the militias asshole has always been the French national pastime sees. Fado speak English. See when asked what type of people she said on fire. She said, none. The French anticipated what a bunch of pansies. They were gonna look like after World War Two, and they wanted a national figure to counterbalance that that wasn't a five foot two inch, habitual nipple pitch awkward. Half was exaggerated and all of this portrait's. Mean means. All right. This is this isn't a tough one, but I'm going to reject the Napoleon reference here. I'm gonna go with a because she see more than capable with her tool that is correct. All right. So which of the following would be the best musical collaboration with the Kennedy family. Hey, Lomo pan. And Ted Kennedy, they make the magic flute a pay per view of event. Oh, okay. That was amazing. I'm not going onto there. We go b. By the rest of us, that's for sure. See. So these jokes, where do you come up. Be JFK and beyond, say, make the grassy Knowles album. Back into the left. You want me back. Or c. Ted Kennedy and Lin Manuel Miranda. Obviously they make rap acquitted. Musical. Music, and some point doesn't do that Ryan patriotic goal. Waste it. That's brilliant. All right. Well, I'm gonna go with Alamo pan and Ted Kennedy because I feel like she knows her way around the flu. Good, good guess, but it was wrapped quick. The musical as turns out. I thought I was right, but I was wrong. See he stumped. Yup. So the winter. All right. Next week, I would like to choose my best friend best friend. Okay, jealous. So sweet. All right. We'll Tom see. So he and no, I'm alive. Thank you for hanging out with us today. We'll be back next week and by then cease will will be an expert on something else between now and then you can listen to seasonal and he on their show. That sounds delicious or you listen to Tom. No. Until he explodes podcast. To help keep this show going could make purpose. Oh donation at patriot dot com. Slash citation pod or leaves a five star review everywhere you can. And if you'd like to get in touch with us, check out steps, connect with us on shelter media or check the show notes, be sure to check out citation pod dot com. And remember Mississippi has the worst drivers. This is really delicious due to something else with the wine wine stuff. This guy.

Tom Julie Ted Kennedy Eli Bosnich Loma pan Paris France Anita Hill Donald Trump Nimmo pan Chun Li cdot Lhamo pan Chun Li Gins France Marseilles Illinois Bank Seoul