20 Episode results for "Syphilis"

Ep 36 Shades of Syphilis

This Podcast Will Kill You

1:47:41 hr | 1 year ago

Ep 36 Shades of Syphilis

"Z. and the terrible things that they've done those terrible things can only happen to those people right sometimes the worst things happen in our own backyard This is exactly rain. We've all heard the stories about Bundy Dahmer Gates statistics demographics real estate reports etc.. We know what you're thinking shut up and give me murder don't worry now it's time to meet the cast of characters starting with I loved that description yeah desert it chooses at spot it snaps the network of the nerves at whim it can cut off communication with the outside world suppress the five senses murder all right we know what you're thinking you're thinking shut up and give you the murder with this poison anything is possible it assumes the most acute pain which strikes unendingly the small of your back or perhaps it lays into the brain the kingpin of it all and there's your general paralysis expected and disconcerting forms it almost seems to know the ridiculous shame it inspires so it kills under a disguise it makes its victims die of an the murderer for those of you thinking that true crime comedy don't mix the host try not to make fun of the victims or the victims families but it's hard not to make fun of a murderer who thinks that of cutaneous manifestations whose burgeoning those dreadful efflorescence is the Lupus you can find examples of them all at Saint Louis or in its museum then tired of this cast him aside legs broken and then we have a taxila such a cruel game you have heard tell for instance of the just so much for its caprices but it also has its little habits it loves to come out into the daylight and then you get the whole garden and then we've got a pretty bouquet of infirmities or it plays with a man as if he were a puppet by pinching the nerve at the right spot it makes him jump or dance or start and you can start anywhere but might suggest the beginning head over to apple podcast Itcher spotify or wherever you prefer to listen to podcasts and search small town some true crimes that happen in small towns the world over the hosts are Comedians who research small towns what makes them tick and a murder that happened there tested obstruction for example or a nice little liver disease. You don't recover but your honor is safe at least the bereaved don't have to blush at the mention of the deceased mm-hmm and of course it eats away your bones but above all you see the disease attacks the nervous system that's treat factor would be a good escape vehicle small town murder releases new episode every Thursday there are over one hundred episodes in the back catalogue for all you binge listener they don't each episode begins with a disclaimer that if you do not think true crime and comedy mix to please abandon ship if you're in the car with them you'll hear a story about every small town filled my hovering a classic very classic syphilis I'm very excited about today yeah we've been that's from this book called history of syphilis well believe it or not jumping writing to jump in right in Oh yes so high thing yes if you are so syphilis is a sexually transmitted disease which means we will be talking about Genitalia. Hi I'm Erin Welsh and I'm Aaron allman Updike and this is this podcast will kill you season three three and we're starting off with a bang and sex so if you're listening with young ones that you don't want to hear those things maybe skip this episode comeback in two weeks up to you WANNA do this one for a while and it's been highly requested yes I think we've been saving it because it such a big one feels a bit daunting yeah okay so first episode of season three lots of things have happened so many things and it hasn't even been that long since season two ended no it hasn't so Erin tell us about some of the things that happened for you since we ended season two it was but I'm glad that we saved it metoo so because we're doing syphilis we should maybe preface this with a bit of Warren Mhm so hopefully you get your fill I think this was kind of honor shortlist for the first season wasn't it because it's such a big big one right here throughout this episode tiny little squeals of my baby human sitting here near me the key this ago take a look at that and we also will have new soap coming out new a new scent which is going to be super delicious smelling yeah a kind I am back in the United States and so now we get to record in the same time zone at least even it's not in the same location but there will be upcoming mm-hmm under merch perfect it's pretty easy okay onto more important things yes it's Coren teeny tiny the same young recordings which will be excellent I'll be way more fun but it's really nice to be on the same time zone is an Aaron what's up with you well it's been so long since we've gotten to say those words and since you've been able to actually participate I know and I'm not even right now okay so all right that's us all caught up do we have any more business yes so we still have merchandise assed he's very cute and hopefully will sleep through this recording but if not we'll take breaks no problem being the killer cure ooh it has mulled cider of course ray whiskey ginger liqueur which is really disappointing but I will be again soon quarantine time Aaron what are we drinking today we are drinking fall sent yeah yeah I'm excited about it a where can you find all this you can get all from our website this podcast will kill you dot com okay and Walnut liqueur or walnut bidders if you can find them fantastic I will recommend Templeton Rye because that was Al Capone's favourite whisky and she had syphilis and shout out to our friend Sam for telling me that bit of Trivia that's amazing sandwiches grade school and so she chose Al Capone and always remember that he had syphilis that's amazing yeah well perfect anyways in her pocket new like Oh yeah and Al Capone had syphilis Templeton Rye because she had to do a report on famous chicagoans when she was like shall we begin our first episode of season three absolutely irate we'll take a quick short break so everyone can go make them we post the recipe to the quarantine and the Non Alcoholic Placebo Rita on our website this podcast will kill you dot com and we'll also blasted all over social stitch fix is an online personal styling service that delivers your favorite clothing shoes and accessories directly to you the first thing you do is complete oh profile and then an expert personal stylist will send you a handpicked box of items based on your preferences they have solutions for everybody all over the US and now in the UK there's no subscription required so you can pick between automatic shipments or only getting new pieces on demand shipping exchanges and returns nine ninety five plus free shipping at try I leaf dot com slash this podcast that I wear everywhere it's like my fancy going out shirt but also my like I look professional shirt and sweater it's amazing it's they're very are always free and the twenty dollar styling fee is applied towards anything you keep from your box I am obsessed with this Combo striped shirt and sweater that I got breath however you dress the stylus at stitch fix can help you find your new favourite piece I think mine is boring until which bakes yourselves quarantine me describe your style in one word Aaron is it simple is it sophisticated adventure All right so syphilis yes give it to me don't they nine ninety five plus free shipping just go to try I leaf dot com slash this podcast that's six bottles of wine for only twenty nine wchs stitch fix dot com slash this podcast unlike other wine clubs firstly uses your feedback ratings to curate winds elections personalized to your unique tastes firstly is so confident in the quality of their wine they have a one hundred percent satisfaction guarantee if you're not aid yes so if you're not following us on social media you should probably get on that yeah all right well then on a particular bottle firstly full cover it entirely that's amazing so I have at several bottles from I leave and it's been so much fun good at picking out professional looking close that also work in casual situations I love it get started today at stitch fix dot com slash this podcast and get an extra because you get to taste it and rate those bottles online so firstly then takes those ratings and then selects unique wines based on your taste for your next shipment Oh yes I'll give you the biology not the disease excellent so one thing that I think is very fun that we did not do intentionally at least I don't think we did this intentionally syphilis is our second spira keat bacteria that's someone used that I was like cool I don't know anything about wine but I like it it's very find to get to taste the wines and then rate them because then the next box you know that you're GonNa love you while lyme disease is caused by a number of different species of bacteria syphilis is not only caused just by one take the bacterium that causes lime disease it is a corkscrew shape and sort of swims like a little what am I doing here Erin spiral sleeve creates an introductory six pack of wine for only twenty nine ninety five these are normally twenty dollars a piece these bottles of wine and then you have the most fun times even more yes it's so it's really fun so you start by taking the first leaf wine quiz to assess your exact wine drinking preferences and then one eighty five percent off when you keep everything in your box that's stitch fix dot com slash this podcast for an extra twenty five percent off when you keep everything in your body species but by one particular sub species of one bacteria. I was hoping that you were going to cover this uses aside from syphilis so syphilis is caused by subspecies Paladin so Trepca Paladin Paladin that's what causes try first leaves Wine Club today we're buying great wine is simple sign up with our link and you'll get an exclusive intro offer fix bottles of wine for only twenty what kind of adorable all right so that's the first thing we already know now we've learned something new about syphilis it's caused by a spire keep bacterium which means subspecies intrepid Palam it's fascinating so Trebinje MMA Palim has a number of different subspecies that caused completely different disease sees of caused diseases like Yaws and I'm not sure how you pronounce it They Hill Benadryl I oh syphilis you can't distinguish them from each other so morphological when you look at them under a microscope they're identical the tests that we use to diagnose them you can tell them apart there are tiny tiny differences in their genomes that result in small differences in proteins that if you do very specific a disease that we're GonNa talk about today syphilis also used to be called venereal syphilis so this is the sexually transmitted form of syphilis however other subsidies oh manifestations so the way they present in people is totally different and the way that they're transmitted is different so these other diseases a b. e. j. e. l. yeah I don't know if it's federal or be hill who knows but anyways that's another form and then there's another has learned this super interesting that a subspecies and what does that mean for the biology of this disease versus the other into like Papa bottle open and be like hey guys helped me write this like do we like about it one I had was delicious and it was like buttery was the word tests that nobody does in real life you can tell them apart but the reason that we classify them as different subspecies before we had those tests is because their clinic but they couldn't so I think what I read is that Pinta is caused by a separate species and that's only because they could not get a bacterial isolate of yeah just corckscrewed veterinary so this bacterium that causes is called Paladin can travel to and invade pretty much any organ it can even crossed the blood brain barrier and make its way into your nervous system yet right and we ended season two with the spire icky in our starting season three with ASPIRA Keat I hope that means they're not intentionally it to determine whether it was a subspecies that seems believable and what's so interesting about these different subspecies is that based on the tests that we use to diagnose spread through any type of sexual contact we're talking all the different kinds of sex so syphilis is a very very tiny spira keet the bacteria is able to just corkscrew it's little way in between the tiny gaps in your skin cells either if you have microscopic little tears was hoping that you were going to try to his first because I have no clue I even looked it up and I couldn't find a consistent pronunciation so it's also called endemic syphilis it's spelled yeah and as it travels through your bloodstream it turns out that it stimulates a lot of inflammation on the part of your immune system and this inflammation is what cost caused by the name of Paladin Different subspecies are not transmitted sexually transmitted in other ways that we're not gonNA talk about today right so that's so the way it's transmitted is essentially just when you come into contact with the bacteria through direct skin on skin or skin on mucous membrane contact you're just through your mucus membranes like your genitalia where the skin is very thin and very moist civilised can also pass through the placenta you have a penis on the shaft of the Penis or the glands of the penis it can be on the Labia or inside of the vagina or in the anal canal visser your skin busting out as they go into this open wound where is the wound so it's most commonly if Holzer is essentially chock full of Spira keep bacteria it's just a bunch of Spira keats swimming around just under the in any usually the primary stage is essentially a schenker so it's called it's essentially just an ulcer ears long latency where there are bacteria there but you don't have active disease so you wouldn't know that you're infected so the primary stage usually presents within three weeks of infection so the incubation period on average is about three weeks it can be less it can be more it I actually I saw it listed as a subspecies of trump enuma Paladin and also as another species of That causes a disease called Pinta so I'm actually not clear I fun fact trebek Paladin subspecies Paladin causing syphilis very fun fact such fun that's on the penis anus or labia or inside the vagina but one thing that is really important about this ulcer of primary syphilis is secondary and tertiary very creative names and then it can also lay latent so between the secondary and tertiary phase you can have us so an open wound that is most commonly found on the Genitalia because again we're talking about a disease transmitted sexually so this Shankar are knows I know yeah it's horrific so it can be on basically any mucous membrane okay yeah but most commonly uses a lot of the symptoms that we see there are a few specific organs that it tends to infect like preferentially for some reason or another and we'll talk about those it is yeah so yeah this is something where that's the site of infection and it's full of bacteria extraordinarily infectious okay so these ulcers are extraordinarily infectious and usually ulcer will persist between three and six weeks is going to cost them right it's traveling through your bloodstream causing inflammation as it goes okay so what are the actual symptoms there's three main phases of syphilis primary but it can invade almost any organ just by swimming its way through your bloodstream Yikes yeah let's start talking about the actual symptom so now we know this is how we actually invade any organ that they choose so you can have G. I. Manifestations where you have inflammation and like gastrointestinal it's funny again it's downhill from here okay so syphilis as most people are aware and as we've said already sexually transmitted infection it can be out this can present in so many different ways because the bacteria have gone throughout your entire bloodstream and they can essay meningitis so if it crosses that blood brain barrier in secondary syphilis meningitis and it's not uncommon to find actual bacteria develop secondary syphilis if primary is untreated some numbers I saw said twenty five percent but I saw numbers as high as sixty or eighty percent so in the CSFB's spinal fluid but then there are a few other manifestations that are kind of not kind of classic Nick Secondary Syphilis and most commonly that's a rash and this rash is on the trunk and the extremities and specifically it goes honestly who knows I don't but a number of people will go on to develop this secondary syphilis and this is distress you can have hip had split Omega Lee where your spleen and your liver get infected and then they get really large because they're full of inflammation secondary syphilis is what happens a bit later so this usually happens after between four and ten weeks of after infection so a longer I think one of the main ways that syphilis Scott one of its nicknames which was the great imitator right and it's kind of what you talked about or touched on in the firsthand account consoles isn't that bizarre there's only very bizarre it's very bizarre there's only three main disorders that we learn it's completely painless and it doesn't h and so that's something that distinguishes it from a lot of other genital ulcers is that you might not ever know that Bachchan period in general and I'm unclear on exactly how many like what percentage of people go on and so yeah so it's very possible to never know that you have this primary form and the site is usually the site of infection as well a- and once it penetrates the skin the bacterium pretty quickly makes its way into your bloodstream and from there as we saw in that first hand account it's a pretty long lasting ulcer it doesn't just pop up overnight and then disappear overnight lasts for quite a while so that's primary syphilis or around the anus it is possible also for it to be in the mouth or there's even been reports of it in physicians before gloves were a thing they would get it in there plenty of pictures of this but it sometimes it's just flat red spots sometimes it can be raised spots is there if you're not looking for it because it doesn't hurt at all and even though it might bleed little that's an area where things just kind of bleed sometimes yeah and then you'll also see other signs of kind of systemic involvement things like fever sore throat weight loss hair loss so that it can be transmitted congenitally so from mother to infant and in some cases it can even be transmitted to a baby during birth through the birth canal secondary syphilis okay and then there's tertiary Dunton Yeah Dennis is right after secondary tertiary syphilis or have signs of tertiary syphilis without knowing that you had syphilis because if you only had a primary ulcer infections those are the three big ones I know so the the rash thing so then if you have a because it wouldn't just be on one in in people who have some kind of immuno compromise like they don't have a great immune system response they can actually get necrotizing rashes so that's there's a often a long latent period where we're talking years passed between secondary and tertiary and it's also possible that you can get virus hand foot mouth Oh okay those are the three big ones how interesting I wonder what why me too I tried to find out this tissue starts to die and they get these very large kind of purple very dark rash so it can look a lot of different ways if primary and secondary syphilis goes untreated it can result years down the line in this much more severe form of syphilis and this term and I don't have a good one there are other things like obviously contact dermatitis if you like grab your hand onto somebody like poison ivy yeah you'll get a rash there but in terms of hypolito is liver split is slain he liked that word a lot it's a good where I like to throw it in whenever I can't yeah you can also get whole great pox versus smallpox sort of thing is the big rash yes so this rash can actually look a lot of different ways if you like Google image search it which I'm sure on our social media will post school that give you rashes on the palms and soles it's secondary syphilis recap zeal diseases like rocky mountain spotted fever and Coxsackie Ashari third form actually has three different forms itself so there's a cardiovascular form of tertiary syphilis where as you can imagine her and you never developed those secondary signs you might never have known that you had that ulcer and then five ten fifteen twenty years down the line you can develop into the palm and soles of the feet so palms of the hands and soles of the feet there are not a lot of infectious diseases that cause a rash on your palm everyone loves a small town murder story and luckily there's a podcast that tells all the stories you've never heard of small town murder brings some levity to the most brutal and a hand either it'd be on your palms in your feet yeah and usually it's kind of throughout your body as well so it's not only on your palms and soles it's like kind of all over and this is the Trini Metro however you say it Paladin now something that's very interesting about syphilis that's different than the last spire key we did signs of tertiary syphilis so you can jump essentially from primary to tertiary without you could yeah so tertiary syphilis if it goes and especially if you have if it's up the vaginal canal exam or something it's much more difficult or even like in the anus you're probably never going to find that ability and all it's glory all its regularity no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no the heck that means in a second and then there's neuro syphilis which affects your nervous system neural syphilis is the most famous of these I think and that's it affects your heart there's the Goumassis Gumma 'tis the Gumma the Gumma form and we'll we'll talk about arm is it's off to my right hand side and if I need to do something like for example pick up a fork and bring it to my mouth exterior part of your spinal cord it happens that that section of your spinal cord the nerves that run through it are mostly responsible for a few exception preemption is knowing where your body is in relation to your body so here's so your muscles start to atrophy because of that and then eventually complete paralysis why does this happen great question tremors seizures your muscles will eventually start to deteriorate because the connection between your brain and your muscles is not working correctly specific things vibration sense and discriminative touch so being able to know like this that you're poking me with his sharp and this is where rain starts to atrophy Oh my God yeah it's horrific end so you get a dementia which is basically you know things like memory loss personality change and then you also get these physical symptoms so things like trouble speaking itself your brain and your spinal cord that causes this atrophy so as each part of your brain starts to atrophy you'll see these different manifestations part of your spinal cord Oh my God so instead of your brain kind of wasting away it's the back part specifically just the more devastating I suppose forms of neuro syphilis are called general paralysis and Tapis Dorsalis so we'll talk about late phase of syphilis and there's a few different ways that this can present and they're all absolutely horrific but the two if you need appropriate steps to be able to do that right so you lose all of that in taste ourselves which means your brain doesn't know each of those general recess is so Paribas means paralysis but this is much more than just a paralysis this is win basically the spire keep invades your brain in such a way that your cerebrum which is the main part of your brain like the brain shaped part of your where your leg is in relation to your body so you can't walk properly because you cannot coordinate between your legs your brain doesn't know where they are right I don't know entirely especially with general purposes it's as far as I understand it's just the invasion of your brain oh you're poking me versus this is soft in this is not so you lose that you lose any kind of vibration sense okay and very importantly appropriate is like dorsal like dorsal fin so the back part so Katie's Dorsalis is literally the wasting away the degeneration of the Post Ellis tabbies I looked this up get my etymology hat on tapis means wasting away which is horrific entrance door Salis isn't that yeah that's really rough yeah so yeah so that's tabbies door Salis so that's actually not the most common form of neuro syphilis the most common and kind of I know what we learned in school is like the most classic neuro syphilis is tables Dorsey it's really gnarly it'll eventually result in complete loss of coordination loss of reflexes because part of the reflex loop goes through the part of your spinal cord as well and then that will also lead to muscle degeneration 'cause you're not coordinating your muscles correctly it's really gnarly and yet the cardiovascular form of syphilis is actually the most deadly seems reasonable yes and this is this is yeah luckily those manifestations are not common today because we have treatment but they still can't happen yeah okay but that's just neuro- syphilis we're not one of the most interesting forms for me when I first learned about it cardiovascular syphilis what happens is so you're a ORTA which is the giant largest artery that leads directly off of your heart right that's the artery that feeds every other artery giving blood to your whole body right in a blue whale the teensy tiny blood vessels that actually feed the muscles surrounding. You're sorta what happens in cardiovascular syphilis is the bacteria this is depressing so you're a order is so large and thick and muscular that it actually has its own blood supply so there are replicate and invade those tiny blood vessels there called the Vase Orem that feed your a order and then the inflammation causes those vessels to obliterate bow so that means that your your data is not getting blood supply to the muscle of your eighteen the pressure from your blood flow from your heart do we have any breakdown of the proportion of it's a good question I don't have exact numbers as I did see that that neuro syphilis is the most common form of tertiary but cardiovascular is responsible for what I read is form this is the least common but this is what happens when the spire keats invade your skin or your bone or other tissue and basically just inside eighty percent of the deaths associated with syphilis okay so if that helps at least to get an idea and then finally there's the the governor resells and bacteria in these kind of nod jewels is this the one that leaves the most traces I mean you said it invades the bones oughta so then the walls of your have become weak and then it dilates and it can eventually rupture yikes because it can't be a aorta small human can fit through it yes that's my fun factor this fun brag pepper in fact in here we need some of those all areas destroy all that tissue so you get these large what are called granular which essentially is just a bunch of dead tissue with inflammatory really there's congenital syphilis which is very depressing it's win the parakeets cross the placenta or in some cases through the the vaginal canal infect a fetus or a baby and there's a number of different things that it can cause in in yeah but you might like one one is going to be the thing that like kind of brings it to the attention or something like that I don't think that these are not distinct entities of different ways and adults it can cause a lot of different types of disease in children as well but at least about half the time if a pregnant person gets -sarily right they're just different shades of right exactly different different shades of syphilis shades and then infected with syphilis what happens is just so early fetal loss or stillbirth if the pregnancy is farther along that's that's really sad so vince and even in children's so even after like several years congenital syphilis can cause a lot of different the way that it can manifest in do they I didn't even think about this I just kind of assumed that all tertiary syphilis left bone traces but is it just the Gumma for us I would guess a good thing that I have to say about it is that it's very treatable still syphilis treated with penicillin it's one of the few things that we still treat with penicillin and thus far it shows little to no resistance to penicillin which is fascinating too interesting it's very very you can have Gomez even if you never know that you had them okay right only be discovered like you could have cardiovascular syphilis and goumas absolutely so yeah that's syphilis what the Heck Aaron where did this thing come from enniskillen instead of treating them with a different antibiotic you actually desensitize them to penicillin first and then you treat them with Oh is that penicillin is so good at treating syphilis that if someone has especially if they have a late stage of syphilis and they're allergic to addicts is somebody has an early form of syphilis and is allergic to penicillin but for late syphilis it's pretty much penicillin bust Gotcha Cool Tom Article from beautiful comfy chairs to amazing sectionals to stackable chairs if you have extra guests article can accommodate all and how can it wreaks havoc on our bodies Oh man okay well here we go here we go but first let's take a little break it's my favorite dylan how do you desensitize someone to penicillin the same way that you would with other allergies you basically give them a tiny bit at a time and you monitor them and it's most of the most of the time it's a fatal outcome exactly yeah so that's that's pretty much the biology of syphilis the only Galore season it's fall which means spending lots of time indoors it's the perfect chance to refresh your space and set it up for entertaining with new furniture then you slowly increase the dosage does that work for everyone as far as I can tell it works for most people that's really interesting it's interesting but it can favorite part to get in room delivery assembly assistance and their thirty day return policy allows for easy returns and exchanges. I am in love with these time that we see what is definitely an outbreak of syphilis in Europe like conclusively is around Fourteen Ninety five during the shipping is super fast and flat rate and it's available all across the USA and Canada starting at just forty nine bucks with the option which is velvet pillows and this amazing Alpaca throw the quality is so amazing I'm seriously lounging in luxury all the time and region's new pathogens and including syphilis it turns out that the question of where syphilis came from and when is a bit more best article is offering our listeners fifty dollars off their first purchase of one hundred dollars or more to claim visit article dot com slash this set the stage for the emergence and spread of a particular pathogen. Can you guess what one of the most common stage setters I happen out of thin air even though that may be how it seems when they begin usually there's a set of very specific circumstances that perfectly podcast and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout that's article dot com slash podcast to get fifty dollars off your first purchase of one hundred dollars I Italian war you've heard of that you know this of course I know all about it was the first one yeah in heavily totally of your hosting needs and you save up to thirty percent over traditional retail prices they keep their prices low by cutting out the middleman and selling directly to you and they're awesome maybe people from a lot of different areas getting together really could be war absolutely yeah so war war is the answer I was looking for what is it good for spreading disease absolutely so yeah of such great customer care they came in and set up my chair and brought this extremely heavy mirror all the way up my stairs to put it in my closet it's fantastic take a very long time and so but it's it's worth it to be able to use penicillin rather than trying to find an alternative yeah yeah there are other antibody a- as you mentioned a bunch of people in close contact these travelling in areas that are new to them infrastructure is sort of falling apart and all of these things promote the exchange of Naples and around Italy just partying and pillaging and having a good time and then the people had had enough the southern half of Italy excluding Sicily okay the king refused to pay any money to the pope and so the pope was like all right fine I'm just gonNA or at least unknown to previous doctors the French sickness has worked its way in from the West to the spot as I write the entire body is so repulsive over it so he was he was super annoyed a few years later when the proper heir to the Kingdom of Naples called into question because the previous king died battle is when we get the first known descriptions of syphilis quote through sexual contact an ailment which is new or complicated than I had expected really yeah but don't worry I'll I'll get into all of it later but for now let's first things first this first things first the first does you and give your kingdom to King Charles the eighth of France naturally yeah and so the to the king of Naples and the look at and the suffering is so great especially at night that this sickness is even more horrifying than incurable leprosy or elephantiasis and it can be fatal syphillis outbreaks of any kind of disease don't just spat between the pope at the time who was innocent the eighth if you were interested King Ferdinand of Naples this kingdom was basically the this Venetian doctor named Benedetto by the way I know some winning Bennett show really best friends from Hawaii Oh cool ever whatever Charles gathered some troops and ended up being this ragtag bunch of mercenaries from all over some were Flemish somewhere Swiss we're Spanish hope eventually made up but the King of France King Charles was like excuse me you offered this to me and then you drip back right away and he never really got it very remember that because it's a really interesting facet of the emergence of syphilis in Europe okay so that was from no come I guess I guess anything what would lead to an outbreak water and I was GONNA say Orgies I'm not talking specifically about assist Oracle context because it just sort of I think it's really interesting too I don't know why like how this how this all happened you have your extra joy face interesting I fortunate everything else is resistant to penicillin right within like layers or yeah yeah yeah what I think is very cool so they chase them out and then they met on this huge battlefield in July fourteen ninety five with Italian troops and so from this John when you're talking about this so it's good yeah it's sort of those does wikipedia rabbit holes okay so in the fourteen ninety s there was apparently a bit of okay after this battle the retreating French troops returned to their respective countries and along the way made some stops and may have deposited the syphilis local treatises it was already all over Europe I mean everywhere can I just say that deposited is really funny I didn't like a horror movie script it definitely was much more virulent in its early like in its first emergence that is so interesting and it's fascinating whoa yeah even worse than leprosy and elephantiasis that heavy words right and so that's a that's a actinium in various cities towns of course and from there it exploded and I mean like within a few years it was already in and we're Italian I mean you get the idea yeah and then he invaded and met like was like almost little to no resistance initially so they kind of hung out whoa and this part in particular this whole it came from somewhere else is what gave syphilis its various nickname service or or as if I'm just talking about a disease oh fat lot of a lot of people in a small area sure and maybe I thought was unclean for instance for instance in Russia it was called the Polish sickness in Poland it was called the German sickness in German any it was called the French sickness in England it was called the French or the Spanish sickness in the Netherlands it was called the Spanish sickness in Turkey it was called the Christians any places viewed as a dirty disease with moral implications the disease was seen as punishment for living an unclean or immoral life as a as contagious be spread through sexual contact and see often appeared for the first time after people had travelled through the town particularly I believe it was worse whoa this is a terrible scourge that killed quickly hugely disfiguring people and eyewitness accounts of the time re from out of town it was viewed as a matter of such huge public health importance that some towns or cities had laws forbidding people with syphilis from entering to me that it was so recent Oh okay we're going to get into that okay 'cause like wow yeah let's keep going even of European origin the answer is that we don't know for sure you're killing me but yeah the great debate about syphilis I had no idea so I wake up you know and here's here's what I can glean from just a quick skim so in the fourteen ninety s there was apparently and I always and one that still seems to attract fairly high levels of interest is its origins and not the evolutionary origins of this parakeet necessarily but the origins of the epidemic there are two basic thoughts one is that it was brought from the new world to Europe when Columbus returned from his voyage games all of which had that general theme it came from over there with over there being whatever country or region was your political enemy or yeah one that you didn't like it mm-hmm and also the attitudes that one country holds for another yeah syphilis like many sexually transmitted infections was and still is but I swear if you just learn the country-specific nicknames for syphilis during the Fifteenth and sixteenth centuries you could tell a lot about the political atmosphere during that time sickness in Japan it was called the Chinese sickness and in Spain it was called Las Buubas does a bit of an outlier okay okay the Colombian theory this is the one that seems to be the best supported by archaeological evidence and also writings from the time is that syphilis had been present in Europe since antiquity but increase in incidence and virulent due to an evolutionary leap. Let's go through each of these the new world because syphilis infections and congenital syphilis can leave traces on skeletons you can basically just look at the archaeological record to see tree or even that of the nineteenth eighteenth centuries and those civilised I guess are horrifying enough but this one if you can with them syphilis and starting the whole pandemic and this one is referred to as the Colombian theory the second called the Pre Columbian theory it's sort of in the name it is and I think it also makes sense considering if that was the first exposure that's how we often see epidemics happening is that reinisch wave is so there are definitely some cases that appear to be civilised but for many of these the dating or diagnosis is called into question interesting single one whose diagnosis or dating was clearly pre-columbian syphilis interesting yeah and so the timing and really right on Sunday we'll do mix them a toast this oh can't wait people quickly realized that the disease ah this syphilis as you could probably tell from the description of during the battle this was not the syphilis of the twenty first also been the more prominent theory of the two for the longest period of time there are even some historical writings dating back from the first this first unambiguous appearance the timing and origin of syphilis emergence and while there are more than several pre-columbian new role skeletons in both northern and southern hemispheres theory which is the one that syphilis was present in Europe have suggested that many writings about leprosy are actually about syphilis and they're are some instances of something called veneer leprosy but it's not clear that that's definitely syphilis and early writings about civilised distinguished it from me rightfully so but what is the evolutionary history of the civilised pathogen Lewis as you mentioned is caused by the subspecies and so one of the verity of that I clear syphilis. Syphilis epidemic in Europe is also a point in favor of the Colombian theory so that it was brought over descriptions of syphilis review from two thousand eleven looked at all fifty four published cases of supposed- pre-columbian syphilis in skeletons in the old world and did not find in April of fourteen ninety-three bringing with him a few hundred people from Hispaniola and then some of Columbus crew then join King Charles the eighth army bringing along by sensationalist quote documentaries like I watched this one by timeline which was like rewriting history of syphilis from this time tell of these erupting pustules and horrific lesions with death being a primary outcome and before the fourteen ninety five but in terms of origins which of these accusatory nicknames was right really the French disease brought over from France or the German sickness was it that showed signs of syphilis clear evidence of syphilis infections in old world skeletons isn't well I guess as clear and then been brought over or could have a lot of people of the pre Columbian hypothesis say well it could have happened in both places because it is pretty clear that syphilis outbreak I talked about there aren't unequivocal descriptions of syphilis and definitely nothing as telling or extreme that one many proponents of the pre Columbian ideas although this isn't clear this isn't certain one of the ideas is that syphilis actually evolved from yaws most likely into being a because it was the most common before there was treatment for syphilis tertiary syphilis specifically neuro syphilis was the most common form of this and it had some of the worst sound effects have ever heard a document her had these weird like wolf howls creepy slamming doors it was weird yeah anyway I feel like then you'd be more likely to see like two distinct forms of syphilis which I think we really see so interesting idea leap to syphilis in the new world and also made the leap to syphilis in the old world and it's kind of an interesting that seems highly unlikely but skeletons in the new world it's pretty clear that syphilis was there okay and infecting people before Columbus and so they say well maybe yaws made the interpreted a lot of different ways there's a lot of retrospective diagnosing of famous people that is interesting it's like if you were miss if you were an artist or composer or a dictator you had syphilis for sure yeah which could it could be possible entirely but it's just sort of like ray sexually transmissible and more virulent form okay and that could have happened in North America in the new world it's the first in fourteen ninety five and in the early fifteen hundreds of that state that the disease was brought back by Columbus and his crew after Z. and smallpox so they were like this is worse than leprosy as you heard in that description right so the debate still kind of rages on and it's it's interesting and also as you mentioned this is called the great the great imitator and sew writings are sort of BIA gabby you know slamming doors that's a sign of syphilis for sure exactly but these documentaries are these shows I don't rely ah they often heavily rely on unpublished and not peer reviewed data rate or findings so it's and that that they also catch a lot of flack for that and house to say there are probably many always I like to play a little of the world like in Asia or Africa or anything like that not that I could find I didn't see anything that was super the fact where the fact are there and I'm sorry this is jumping your gun are there any descriptions of it in other parts how how it worked or or if it truly was effective but people did use it up until the early twentieth century and even a little bit climate it wasn't until the end of the eighteenth century really that people started to use syphilis again syphilis is the main the name wasn't actually in heavy use for most of the history of the disease and most people opted to call it the blank disease it's like an old Roman poem he blames the drought on the Sun God Likely Apollo or the Roman equivalent if there is one whatever mm character of an epic poem and in this poem syphilis who is a shepherd gets upset when there is a bad drought that is killing the land and his sheep points so a it reveals a lot about the blame and who who's often perceived to be the day possibly attitudes of venereal disease which is no longer a term that we use because venereal comes from Venus Long Time Mercury was the chosen treatment for syphilis like even just a few years after that fourteen ninety five outbreak it was started uh-huh venereal disease did we talk about that I don't remember it tell me again okay well it tells you a lot about the historical attitudes and even goddess of love there was saying that a night with Venus leads to a lifetime on Mercury which brings me to my next couple hey from this origins part of the story I WanNa talk of course about the etymology of syphilis and not really at scientific name but pox the Blake disease the French disease this disease or great pox or pox or wild warts okay that's my favorite yet annoyed and so he sends a venereal plague upon the countryside where syphilis lives simplicity's the first victim so yeah interesting interesting things civilised the shepherd also I don't remember if we talked about this and the gonorrhea episodes I'm just going to repeat it anyway but the origin of the term because I think that's less exciting trump and nema meaning attorney thread in Greek and power to meaning Pale Yup but the words syphilis where does it come from yeah and so basically they would rub it on themselves and this is what inspired the name of our quarantine by the way the killer cure because a lot of the cures that people took four the person responsible for transmitting syphilis or being the harbor of syphilis switches often a woman like a temptress or that sort of thing and instead says he's going to worship the king whose sheep he herds the king is like but the Sun God is really I used and it was I guess maybe effective somewhat effective poisoned you tonight think so yeah I don't know exactly and then also mercury and let's just get into the treatment real quick of overlap some of these wild treatments so for a law no small thing so other things like induced sweating and salvation were also treatments and you know I can't go yeah you said I mean I was like isn't that what we call it now yeah yeah works let's gotta be the Kandalama Lada because they're pretty wild but plucked and flayed alive or else alive frog cut into what would rub mercury on themselves that's awful they would take it and other forms syphilis would kill them so it was either syphilis would kill you or the cure would kill you right essentially murky news mercury poisoning is and our favorite this is already a long episodes list too many but here's a great one quote if this is directly from this book ver- precipitated Mercury Gentian Root Red Coral ash of ivory burnt Horn of deer the pre the doctor feels pity the women being strictly confined to the role of contaminated who's schenker moreover is more difficult to discover and then continuing with the cure there was something along those lines that was like you have to remove I mean poor I feel terrible for these migrations yeah is also right not that better for you ingest it but I can't look it just sounds terrible that's really cool so then they also -tective must stay in place for four or five hours so this is how to prevent syphilis. This is how to a lot of the treatments actually a frog that you've sliced in half that's just asking for a salmonella super infection on top of your syphilis is what you're asking for the killer cure this is cousin most places sex outside of marriage for men and basically any sex at all for women was seen as immoral diseases such as syphilis and gonorrhea were viewed as nine punishment and the word venereal as I mentioned inherently has blamed tied to it in many places to try to stop to those sorts of things like through the nineteen fifties and Sixties and Oh yes we're going to pose some some posters that are pretty yeah and don't touch mercury do it are you also know I can't go this entire episode without describing at least one bizarre or horrifying cure I'm saying also what is up with people and plucking Cox and using them as curious didn't they do that for rabies to there was the people deemed unclean or immoral and also a lot of diagnosing especially for women happened just word of mouth so if a man said the spread of syphilis brothels were shut down or made illegal not that that necessarily decrease the prevalence of infection separate hospitals were constructed. Here's another here's another one I'll just throw one more in there because we just your fun yeah to gain protection one must wash oneself after the act then discussing thing don't don't Soak your penis in that don't do it don't follow these these are not instructions to follow no they are anti -struction this this is a road over the glands with a piece of cloth which has masqueraded in preparation of wine shavings of GAIC I don't know what that is flakes of copy were after the fact it was not really about prevention it was about it wasn't about prevention before sex it was about making sure that you for people with syphilis and they were often turned away at normal hospitals and it's not like these syphilis hospitals were nice care facilities they were just a place to isolate to be condemned to a life of disease due to her unfaithful husband and then congenital syphilis at this time because it wasn't known to be read by the way call the history of syphilis quote if the penis is ulcerated an infected and then the author writes it is always the male sex for which came around it was almost in some ways viewed as a rite of passage like it was just something that happened to you the discussion of morality yeah you can you can think of disease being contagious and even though now we know that that is inherently tied to a specific pathogen whether it's a virus bacteria or worm or something knowing I got this or believing at least I got this from this person I that is such an interesting like separate around this time it was more about the preservation of marriage as an institution that's what took the spotlight and a lot of focus was paid to the innocent wife made map that you should not go on Oh my goodness gracious Because signs of syphilis are often less obvious in women they were often blamed for spreading the disease with bill as per us with the whole Harlot and evil temptress concept a pathogen it was more viewed as original sin or a punishment on behalf because your parents were like you were born bad you know you're you're ulcerating serrated penis on a flayed bird or nothing would happen for gonorrhea is yeah exactly over time though attitudes around civilised changed a little bit you didn't get infected after mostly it was like well you better wash yourself quickly and then maybe soak your your penis and a cloth of some sort of weird grow will bad bad areas swampy areas lowland areas whatever else just bad air but this was like oh no this is obviously a contagious thing right and so yeah and so the sexual aspect of course was had been known for a long long time but then alternate routes were also accepted the disease itself had become so had been so widespread for such a long period of time and during that time it had become much less virulent and so by the time the eighteen hundreds were born yeah and so yeah as this this brings me to this this point of contagion being different thing than germ theory that is such a try hard right and so these were probably ways to preserve invented to preserve the virtue of certain people around the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds morality plays were written and performed poems about passed from person to person that is so so interesting to imagine like not knowing that a bacteria is what's causing it but thing it wasn't necessarily the same thing back then it was sort of your unclean aspect you're unclean character could be silas shifted again in the late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds and it had always been sort of focused on the unclean or immoral aspect of it but in again to come to light so kissing wet nurse to infant or vice versa and this was sort of a question mark I don't know and then later on the big thing was sitting on a toilet seat the dangers of syphilis and evil temptresses and all that and how they're going to poison your household and et Cetera and all of these of course it was and this so some of these ways are actually ways that you can get syphilis a kissing for instance yes but other ones like sitting on had sex like I I have syphilis I had sex with this woman so she gave it to me than the doctor would say she has syphilis she has to go to this hospital feel like I remember you saying if the penis is also you must immediately wash it thoroughly with soft soap or apply it to a cock meaning rooster or pigeon well it was it was thought that if we have enough social reform and morality campaigns through pretty preserve toilet seat or being contaminated holy water which was my favorite one excuse me what Oh my God could a hereditary as I mentioned and often the cause of genius or creativity something that has in common with tuberculosis so that's I think worth mentioning yes this is not found in other animals it's not present in the environment this human-to-human exclusive Shen right. Wow it's something I hadn't really thought of before this episode because a lot of the times the episodes that we've covered who had gotten syphilis the end were like oh I've you know we should probably clarify that you cannot get syphilis from Z's one of the three being the other two being tuberculosis and alcoholism they were all viewed as sort of these unclean unclean holy insist lease from like sexual intercourse right right that that is how you get it yet how that's it's very very yeah capone again being being NICI tolstoy Karen Blixen who wrote out of Africa Lenin Hitler and then like many many people there's even a book called pox something about I can't remember who wrote it I didn't read it because from my understanding it's a lot of this hand wavy retrospective diagnosis so Anyway it seems like it would be a fun book to read I would toilet seat you cannot and contaminated holy water case you were worried about that too it's also a human specific disease whoa yeah it was a huge problem and although mercury and arsenic based compounds were available from the early nineteen hundreds on they weren't Alverson okay so prior to nineteen forty-five about five to ten percent of all psychiatric admissions were neurosis we we know we've traced the concept of disease and infectious disease and it's mostly to do with my asthma and sort of like city or something on the Hannity Trinity Eating That is so interesting to me that it was alcoholism and Tuberculosis Silas were the same disease just different forms or stages and there was some horrific self experimentation is to try to clear this issue up and I think I syphilis is as I mentioned one of the diseases that people like to St- retrospectively diagnose so we've got some these are both confirmed and suspense but it wasn't really until the late eighteen hundreds that the observation was made into application this Austrian psyche orig- or to clean up this that then we could wipe these things out wow so yeah and other people believed it to be even that got the disease from a woman of ill repute and he was often portrayed as a victim himself it was one of the three like it was genuinely called a social it was finally seen under the scope and identified almost thirty years after gonorrhea and which finally was like Oh this is a different one so what year was that reminded me everywhere so we'll syphilis was discovered were seen in February nineteen o five okay well that's actually earlier than I expected considering imagine is it all about syphilis specific jobs I suppose throughout much of the history of syphilis people debated whether gonorrhea and so naturally because this was early nineteen hundreds he experimented on humans without consent like hill with different mentioned one of these experiments self experiments during the gonorrhea episode and he died of syphilis but he thought he was infecting himself gonorrhea anyway the syphilis bacteria fever inducing compounds or pathogens but eventually he made his way to malaria during World War One he drew blood from malaria meaning fire so essentially using induced fevers to treat another disease oh yeah this had been observed for really longtime like the fact that affected soldiers and then injected that blood into his patients stop it some of whom died of course some of whom did not show any improvement and some who did even if it was just for a short while Oh my goodness yeah so this was far from failsafe cure a fever from an infectious disease could cure mentally ill patients and that's something that he had observed during his time in psychiatric hospitals and waitressed Julius Wagner Yar egg I don't know how you say his name which is going to be a problem because I have to say a couple times he had become convinced that didn't stick around for obvious reasons like it was super unethical and could kill you right this therapy will kill you I don't know hence the killer cure again I psychiatrist and only one of three I think ever to be awarded a Nobel Prize for using malaria to treat nurse in a year later in one thousand nine hundred six and then Paul Ehrlich along with another microbiologist Dame Hata came across an much help for most people but also people with nurse of Louis Okay but an alternative was discovered pyro therapy so pirates and so this practice wasn't widely accepted really okay but regardless of that in one thousand nine hundred twenty seven he became the of an effective treatment for syphilis and it was called Salvator San and that was a substitute for mercury which people started using it and then there was an even better version called neo net cool yeah all so at this at the turn of the twentieth century a lot of developments for syphilis we're taking as he had really close ties with the Nazi party and this was around the time when like bioethics and human experimentation started to place a lot of both in terms of microbiology in terms of treatment and so on and because of this was still very huge problem and a big eighteen there were three hundred eighty three thousand cases of syphilis and gonorrhea in the American army just in the American army just in the American army so lots and lots and lots of syphilis and a lot of the public health campaigns during this service days to be lost from a troops I think US troops specifically in World War one that like almost as much but he was encouraged by the results so he kept doing it and it was basically the same sort of thing like people died people got better people got worse whatever just a little bit less than the nineteen eighteen flu wow so between April nineteen seventeen and December nineteen ninety and there was premarital required mandatory premarital screening for syphilis and tuberculosis the both partners had to be screened acted cases. I'll just listen famous Guy Franz Schubert and other composers like Smetana and daily Sentinel I'm saying that right okay and so all of this so the fear of syphilis and gonorrhea remained heightened throughout the time between the World War One US he got a Nobel prize for that Yeah Whoa Yeah Oh also I want to mention that one of the others three psychiatrists or one of the other two psyche how tiny yeah and then the board Bordet Bob Vass diagnostic test was developed physiological basis of memory that's cool that's cool yeah actually cool but this basically using malaria to treat syphilis nurse a and Wagner Yard he fell from grace and basically slipped from public consciousness after World War Two because really take focus but yeah there you have it so it interesting little chapter in the history of Syphilis Malaria Man Fevers could cure whatever pre-existing disease that you had like I'm sacking a really long time like ancient Greeks have gratuities and Gaylon yeah a little bit more positive and with the with the deployment of penicillin and the widespread use I mean syphilis cases dropped to almost nothing CASS- of both social reform and microbiology and public health and then roadwork one breaks out and as we know war is a great place force if list the spread syphilis caused almost as many that was respectful right of course not of course not it was it was much more sort of condemnatory satory exactly yeah in the Negro male there's a lot in that title tell you about this I'm really focused on avoiding brothels avoiding you know women etc that sort of thing I one of the most important I probably the most important lesson yes of syphilis yet at the end of July in one thousand nine hundred seventy two it was like magic and it kind of became a disease that was forgotten like people you know people kind of stopped considering it even now you interest to was awarded a Nobel Prize was the guy who developed the Lobotomy O. K. Cool The last one was about deficit you too is when syphilis took the headlines again this is when it gets to be the most depressing I think I think this is experiment had gone on for forty years it involved six hundred black men three hundred ninety nine of which had syphilis at the start wow and then there you had to if you did get diagnosed you had to list all of the partners and then they would all be identified but it wasn't like in a way experiment that this story on needs to be told this story to be it's a it's a hugely important story yes this and after World War One the fear the public fear of syphilis was at an all time high like people were terrified of it and this is when the toilet seat rumor got started reek on the human body so you might ask why would anyone agree to participate in this study the men of course let's see what happens when we withhold treatment from human beings yet how far can this disease go how much havoc can the announcement was made that the US Public Health Service had been conducting a study on the effects of untreated syphilis and you think of the eighteen hundreds of well I thought of like different composers and stuff that had syphilis but then in nineteen seventy of the experiment it came out that during this news release came out that the men had not been informed that they had syphilis at the beginning instinctive or super related to or indicative of syphilis or suggestive of session fat yeah cool interesting yeah before I move completely I tear it held the held the world and its grip and then World War Two broke out and it was during World War Two that we see the royal stipend if they agreed to an autopsy of the body these men were not viewed as men they weren't viewed the focus on the human body the exact title of this study is the Tuskegee study of untreated syphilis and that really knocked it out and so then you see these posters that are much more focused on like hey go down to the clinic and get a shot go down to the whatever and get a shot a little bit okay positive release and widespread distribution of one of the best inventions of all time penicillin penicillin these benefits their meager at best a hot meal physical examinations dollars for burial that tells you even as patients or subjects they were viewed as cadavers. They were just cadavers in waiting these and if you think about out the best way to treat syphilis it's in the title of the effects of untreated syphilis their this wasn't a had not been informed that there was a treatment available either at the very beginning of the study when mercury or arsenic based medicines were used to varying degrees of nations free rides to and from the clinics hot meals on examination days free treatment for some minor things and a guarantee that their family would get a bear Kasi and they were not told about a decade after the study began when penicillin was introduced this wasn't a study to find treatment bay study this wasn't an intervention study this wasn't a diagnostic study it was just ended and between one World War Two began so between between nineteen eighteen and nineteen thirty nine was like just twenty years of featureless Tara's not told what the study was most of them were poor and could not read and the Public Health Service offered few perks such as free physical exertion had a huge importance in later ethical guidelines for what can be considered volunteering what can be considered informed consent that this is not these are not volunteers right now this is you cannot and this is we're going to get an yeah I'll get into a bit of this but this really particularly preyed upon of course like entirely O- entirely out yeah yeah some of these circumstances had blood was a colloquial term that sometimes referred to syphilis could be indigestion could be just not feeling great that day it was the poor the illiterate and the friendless are still subject to violation in the name of scientific research and people of Color were at least twenty eight and possibly over one hundred men in the study died as a direct result of untreated syphilis many in many other people were infected as a result of these men not receiving treatment and many children were born with congenital syphilis this rounding the experiment have been disputed like whether the participants were told they had syphilis they were not they were told they had bad blood isn't specific to syphilis in many doctors in the study confirmed that these men were told that they were being treated for rheumatism or bad these people had a bit more difficulty explaining why penicillin was withheld so reporters turned to the man who was the director of aerial disease during the time penicillin use was stomachs and they were given either just straight up placebo or an aspirin wow when any of the men were brought to clinical ramped up and executed at all and receive funding for forty years by the United States Public Health Service reveals a great deal and other people defended the withholding treatment especially the arsenic and mercury compounds used prior to penicillin saying that those drugs were more likely to harm than cure prizing that the creators of this experiment would choose to withhold penicillin after designing the experiment in the first place and this is probably depressing but unsurprised unscientific. I'm sorry can you say that again right okay there there's so much there's like bursting with information with this and from that Dr one of these doctors said that the men were told if they receive treatment they would be dropped from the study and lose all of their benefits release scratches the surface of the problems with the study and to be clear withholding treatment was hugely unethical but that happened a decade after the study began that the study could be of penicillin when it became recognized as a suitable cure which was about ten years after began but that's the only thing that they did wrong that the other people at the CDC said that they doubted that penicillin would have done any good at that point and then in fact it probably could about how you're right to be treated as a human being is inextricably tied to race and class Yep The premise of the experiment is the moral issue. It's not thing there were many defenders or apologist of the of the Tuskegee syphilis experiment when it first came out the public health service barely apologize vic the whole thing was unscientific many of these men had received treatment at the very beginning of the study but not all of them it was and seen by a doctor that wasn't involved in the study these doctors would try to treat them but then they would be forbidden to do so someone would would intervene and pull the person Uh but what are you hoping to learn from this it was the curiosity of these men is particularly one who wanted to he was entrenched is when news of this horrifically unethical experiment broke a lot of discussion

syphilis Syphilis syphilis murder Europe Bundy Dahmer liver disease salmonella acute pain Lupus Saint Louis Erin Welsh apple Wine Club USA Yaws gonorrhea
Antibiotic Resistant Syphilis

Morgellons Discussion

04:19 min | 2 months ago

Antibiotic Resistant Syphilis

"Guys thank you for finding your way to more gallons discussion the podcast I'm your host, Jeremy Murder Free, and this show is about gallons facts. That is to say what has been able to be demonstrated. For scientific purposes. So if you hear me saying something about more gallons disease on this show. It's gotta be coming from the scientific world is been published at a prestigious journal. And Science the experiments that went into producing that data. Are Repeatable. So if you're looking for factual information about the Magellan's disease condition. Welcome to our show. Hi and welcome back to more gallons discussion PODCAST ON ANCHOR FM I'm your host Jeremy Murphy, and today I want to raise your attention to this study that was published the end of two thousand sixteen. This one is entitled origin of Modern Syphilis and emergence of pandemic triple team Appel them cluster. So this is not an open access article, but you can rent or buy the article from eight, Ninety, nine on read cube and I'll include Lincoln description below I just woke up in the middle of the night and I'm like I gotta go back to sleep but I wanted to rip out this podcast about syphilis abstract, the abrupt onslaught of the civilised pandemic that started in late Fifteenth Century established this devastating infectious disease as one of the most feared in human history surprisingly despite the availability of effective antibiotic treatments. Since the Mid Twentieth Century this bacterial infection which is caused by trump name Palim subspecies palette them teepee a has. been reemerging globally in the last few decades with an estimated ten point, six, million cases in two thousand eight although resistance to penicillin has not yet been identified. An increasing number of strains failed to respond to the second line body as a throw myerson little is known about the genetic patterns and current infectious or the evolutionary origins of the disease due to the low quantities of DNA in clinical samples and difficulties. In culturing the pathogen. Here we use DNA capture and whole genome sequencing to successfully interrogate genome wide variation from syphilis patient specimens combined with laboratory samples of teepee. A and two other subspecies follow genetic comparisons based on the. Genomes indicate that EPA strains examined share a common ancestor after the fifteenth century within the early modern era. Moreover, most contemporary strains are Zithromax in resistant and are members of globally dominant clustered named here as as as one for. The cluster diversified from a common ancestor in the mid. Twentieth Century subsequent to the discovery of antibiotics. It's recent follow genetic divergence and global presence point to the emergence. Of A pandemic strain cluster. I would you guys think that's what's going on with syphilis like right now in the twenty first century, Shit this article is talking about it happening last decade man. Wow. But nope, that's what's going on today. We got the potential for the antibiotic resistance civilize. Crappy Shit what do you guys think? Hey, let me know send me a message. Let me know what's on your mind and if there's anything we can cover. We'll take a stab at it. All right I guess it's Friday early Friday morning. So you guys have a good one and enjoy last day of your week definitely A. Eight weekend

Syphilis Jeremy Murphy Murder penicillin EPA
From the Vault: Syphilis

Stuff To Blow Your Mind

1:13:54 hr | 2 years ago

From the Vault: Syphilis

"Have you ever wanted to be a detective, go onto your favorite crime show and solve the case. Now you can hunt a killer is a monthly subscription box where a serial killer delivers packages to your doorstep. These packages contain clues items and puzzles. See if you can crack the case and solve the mystery hunter killer is not a game. It's an experience. The deeper dive, the crazier, it gets the Washington Post, even called it quote, not for the faint of heart, and they only accept two hundred new members of day. So go now and apply to hunt the killer dot com. And you can use our code mind blown to get ten percent off your first box, visit hunter, killer dot com. Slash mind blown. Can you hunt to kill her. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert lamb and I'm Joe McCormack and it Saturday time to go into the vault and boy, do we have a treat for you? This is a grand old episode, Robert. I know you're very excited about this. When when did this originally air in twenty fourteen, yes, this is this is much older episodes in a lot of the other vault episodes. We've discussed it published a August twenty six and twenty eight twenty fourteen. It's a pair of episodes that Julie Douglas and I put together that discuss the history of syphilis how the science of syphilis, how civilised works. Yes, the sexually transmitted disease syphilis. And it is just a fascinating topic. It's it's easily one of my favorite episodes of all time. So we we've taken those two episodes in stitch them together into one episode. So it might be a little clunky at times. But all the information is is definitely still valid. Will there be vampires over there? Will be vampires be prepared for the syphilis vampire or I will. Let's go right in. Welcome to stuff to blow your mind from how stuff works dot com. Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamm Julie Douglas, but I'd like you to take a moment to just try and create trying to magic the most destructive disease possible. Imagine a disease that ravages the body that ravages just about every tissue every every part of human form that. It takes down your sex organs that takes part to face takes your identity and in some cases alternately rob you of your mind as well before killing you outright. Yeah, you mentioned sex organs. So also imagine that there's a moral to mention to this disease that would give you the sort of outward appearance that perhaps you had been engaging in conduct unbecoming to you? Yes. And of course, in all of this, we are talking about a very real illness and that is syphilis. We're actually going to devote to whole episodes to syphilis here this first episode, syphilis. The great imitator is mainly going to focus on the organism that causes stiffness and how syphilis manifest itself in the human body. In the second episode, we are going to get in to the cultural and historical impact of syphilis because that that in its own right is an enormous topic of interest because for four and a half centuries, syphilis ravages the old. World ravages western culture, and it's it's really kind of difficult to overstate the the role that syphilis played in in coloring western civilization during that time. Yes, don't run away because this is really interesting that curium itself is fascinating. And then of course the the cultural implications. Now we have our first recorded epidemic of venereal syphilis occurring in Europe in fourteen ninety five and by the close of the fifteenth century, you have chaos just raining in Naples, Italy where there's a huge outbreak. In fact, Pope Innocent the eighth asked French king, Charles the eighth to invade the city with troops to try to keep it under control. But what do you think happens. As we would, we would have instantly learned sending troops into deal with syphilis, not the best strategy because because they're going to end up catching the syphilis. And then when you draw the troops out, they're gonna take the civilised elsewhere. Exactly. And the problem here is that was has been known as the great image imitator because it has all these different symptoms that at the outset might be mistaken for other illnesses. So imagine this time period in which this was happening and people don't quite knowing what they were dealing with to quote, Sir, William Osler. He says, no syphilis in all its manifestations in relations and all other things clinical will the added to you. There is no organ in the body, nor any tissue in the organs which syphilis does not invade, and it is therefore manifestly difficult to speak, at least at all concisely of the pathology of the disease just as it is almost impossible to describe its clinical symptoms without mentioning almost every symptom of every known disease and the symptoms are. Are not going to be the same from one person to the next. So you have a disease that is that is seemingly very stealthy, very nefarious, it's it's, it's changing its shape. It's changing its strategy. It's going dormant. It's popping back up and and the whole time everyone's trying to understand what's going on how to prevent it. Again there. There's, there's this, this whole seemingly moral side to it because it spread through sexual contact and it ends up spreading across every social level in society. It's it's a disease that ravages the poor ravages, the rich, it's hitting the royalty. It's hitting the clergy, it's hitting anyone who's engaging in sexual contact, which is everyone right. And in fact, it is so prevalent that you get a couple of references to it in Shakespeare's works like pox of your houses and Romeo and Juliet, which is now a curse like about sewing. You. Yeah, it's. But the problem with this is that we tend to think of it as antiquated illness, right? It is not. In fact, the centers for disease control estimate that annually more than fifty, five thousand people in the US get new syphilis infections. And during two thousand twelve, there were more than forty. Nine thousand reported new cases of syphilis compared to forty eight thousand estimated new diagnoses of HIV. So it is still present and it is most common in people between the ages of twenty and twenty nine years of age which has led it to be called cupid's disease by the way. And of course, one other way we should mention that it till you can transfer syphilis is through an unborn child, and so congenital syphilis which will will talk about a little bit more later. That's also a huge problem because when syphilis manifests innate newborn child, the the, the. Affects our, it can be pretty disastrous. So once against syphilis, even though it is of tremendous interest from a historical standpoint, it is not a purely historical disease. Now we just don't put as much emphasis on it these days in as in terms of infectious diseases because it can be controlled by penicillin and we'll talk about that later. Yes, yes, it can be wiped out by penicillin and and that has been a huge advantage in the war against syphilis for sure. But still it is. It is an adversary that that carries on even in the advent of what would seem a magic bullet. Yeah. And let's talk about this dastardly organism also known as Trump Nima Paladin. Yes, Trebinje McDowell them which is a Trebinje mole disease. There are other Trebinje will diseases which will get into these in coup clued, visual, pinta and yards. None of these of course are sexually transmitted, but they are essentially skin ailments that are that are transferred by skin-to-skin contact. Yes. So they are related to Trump Nima Palo dome, but they themselves as you say, are not spread through sexual contact. I should add to be clear if you want to get really particular syphilis is caused by a subspecies of Trebinje McDowell them, essentially Trebinje McLeod empowered them. But for all intents in references going forward, Japanese pout on t- Paldam syphilis. You'll know what we're talking about. Now, this is the spiral shape. Bacterium also known as a Spiro Keat in we're talking about slender spiraling undulating bacteria here. And again, it is most often spread by sexual contact and the disease occurs in three primary stages. We'll talk more about that and no, these these later stages that will discuss are not so common in our modern era, right? Yeah, because the later stages obviously deal with a case of syphilis that is not. Entreated not been cured with a penicillin. All right. Well, let's let's talk about how syphilis is transmitted, and I'd like you to think about this in terms of an invasion because that's what it is. We're, we're dealing with an invasion of these Spiro Keats into the human body, and this invasion takes place in a few different phases. So syphilis can be spread again by through through the birthplace Cinta by kissing close contact transfusion of fresh human blood. But the main ways that it's that it's spreading through sexual contact. We're talking vaginal sex, oral sex, anal sex, all of these will serve as as a as an entry point. Now, the way that the spiral into the body, they enter through the skin. And when intimate contact of this nature is made that is when when the spire key interests the body interest through the skin and there it will hang out until it makes it self known in the form of Civiletti or also known as a Schenker and Schenker's occur. Mainly on external genitals that Jonah anus or in the rectum they can also occur on the lips and in the mouth. So this is when you see most of the transmission occur among people when these words are present, right? This is primary syphilis. This is first stage syphilis and think of this in terms of the enemy initially getting in to the fortress. This is the the Shankar is literally the entry point for the for the Spiro Keats and it may be a small number of Sparky's and maybe a larger number aspire Keats. But this is where they're getting it. This is the whole in the fortress wall. Yeah, in these Schenker's can appear usually around twenty one days after infection, but sometimes as little as ten or even ninety days. Yeah. And they may say, hang around for three to six weeks, and here's the thing they can. If you look pictures online and sure you should definitely go do a Google search for for what things look like your loins, but they may look pretty intense at times. But these are painless and they're easily confused with any number of small skin ailments that may pop up in even a healthy person's life. You know, the stuff like an ingrown hairs or or or various other bumps than it'd be caused by by any number of other ailments. Again, it's the great imitator right now if you do not get treated at this point, well, then it gets into secondary syphilis in during this stage. That's when you see those skin rashes towers in your mouth. And so that's the primary stage in the key to note here that the Schenker disappears advantages. So if you were concerned about it, if you really want to what this painless ugly spot on my genitals as well, then it goes away. And that's one of the dangers that we see over and over again with syphilis is that the infection seems to go away. The illness may seem to go away, but as we're about to learn, it does not again, imagine yourself in, you know, the. Fifteenth century. If you have this and then disappears, you think, oh, everything is fine. I got was upset over over nothing. Maybe you didn't even notice it's, it's entirely likely that one wouldn't even notice that the Schenker had popped up now most likely you wouldn't have been treated at that point in time because it wasn't anything necessarily to treat you with that was really effective. So it would then develop into a secondary stage called secondary's syphilis in which you would have skin rashes and or source in your mouth, vagina and anus also called mucous membrane lesions. Yeah. And you may also see other varying symptoms such as fever, lethargy, headaches, general body aches, hair loss. And this is the point in the invasion in which the enemy, the enemy made it in the primary stage and in secondary syphilis. The enemy has spread throughout the castle. All right in and is making itself known throughout the invaded city. That is the human body right in you are a highly contagious. At this point. In fact, general little sores caused by syphilis, make it a lot easier to transmit in acquire things like HIV infection. Right? So it can get a secondary infection at this point. In fact, there is an estimated two to five fold increased risk of acquiring HIV. If you're exposed to infection, went civiles is present in these first and second stages. Now, at this point after secondary syphilis in here, again, we see that the secondary syphilis this outbreak period. This goes away as well, which again could lead someone to say, well, that was horrible. And maybe then may not even realize that it was connected to the primaries outbreak and they they might, but they can easily imagine, well, I'm done with this now. It's it's, it's it's done. It's finished. Whatever illness was affecting me. The pox has left me, right. Yeah, but little do they know that this is just the latent stage of this and it's just waiting around. It might not even reveal itself for decades. Yeah. So imagine the enemy has invaded the castle. They've made a lot of mischief. And then suddenly they seem to be gone, but they're not gone there in the base in there in the basement there in there in every house in the city there, they've literally becoming part of the city. They're essentially a sleeper cell. In that is what syphilis is Teri -ciary syphilis. The stage really is quite gruesome because it kind of takes everything in the body down to the studs or more. So I should say it's, like you say, this leaper cells in the basements, they become stronger and they come roaring back into the body and they cause a lot of havoc. Yeah, it's, I mean, we see this over and over again with with syphilis, but it has such metaphorical power who's one of the reasons that I, I think we're aside from its, it's power to harm and disfigures. The reason we're drawn to it so is be do see this idea of of the the infection flared up. Then it flared up again. And then it comes back in only fifteen to thirty percent of the cases a much stronger form in the tertiary stage at far more debilitating far more destructive and ultimately lethal stage of the illness. Yeah. In this late stage, you could have symptoms that include. Clued difficulty coordinating your muscle movements, paralysis not being able to move some of your body, numbness, blindness, and dementia. And then in the late late stages, the disease begins to ravage your internal organs, and that is what can result in death. And this one of the remarkable things about this is that this stage can occur ten to twenty years after primary syphilis. So this is it's a again, the metaphor for oracle power of this. It's like the the sins of the young individual coming back to destroy the older individual. You know, it's, it's, it's gruesome stuff in against at one may not even remember that first out break, call that clearly and suddenly all these changes are happening to their body and ultimately to their mind. Yeah. And we have largely up until this point treated this in a very clinical fashion and not really talked about the sights, and the sounds in the spells of what this looks like Mutuel do more in the next. Cast, but just know that at this point this this, this is really adding injury to insult because you might have lost your nose, you know, and recovered from that and and all of a sudden you think you're out in the clear and boom. It comes back in in such a corrosive manner that you find out that this is really the death. Now, corrosive is an excellent term to use because you see the, you see a loss of teeth. You see the destruction of the palate in the mouth. You see, you see the the, the collapse of the nose into what is known as saddle, nose, where basically the knows collapses around the bridge and becomes kind of upturned and smaller looking and then may have been surely appear to rot entirely Saturday. Noses also caused can also be caused by damage to the nose see boxers that suffer from saddle, nose. Also extreme cocaine addiction can somehow sometimes have that effect on individuals, but yet you're. Seeing attack your facial features. You're seeing it attack your genitals in a very destructive manner. And then also he getting into your organs again to back to the quote that I read at the beginning of the podcast by Dr William Osler it it the Spiro Keats of syphilis attack every part of the body, like nothing is off limits to go back to that castle analogy from from earlier the the invader has lived in the city for ten to twenty years. And now in potentially every household in the city has decided to just burn everything to the ground right now, the other part of this is that syphilis, as we have mentioned before can be transmitted through the placenta. So what does this mean? It means that during that time period from the fifteenth century to the twentieth century, there are a lot of children born with syphilis also called congenital syphilis and even to this day according to the World Health Organization, yeah, the million children born annually. With congenital syphilis. Yeah, and it's very serious stuff because nearly half of all children infected with syphilis, whether in the womb die shortly before after birth. And sometimes this can also result in stillborn 's despite the fact that syphilis can be cured with antibiotics if caught early, there are rising rates among pregnant women in the United States. And that of course, is increase the number of infants born with this. Now, some of the complications include blindness, deafness, deformity of the face and urva system problems. Now, why to syphilis hang out in the body so long, you might be wondering, well, it's a, if maybe doing part to Tepe Powell them having a slow dividing time of thirty two thirty three hours. And it's likely that t- Paldam undergoes an even slower rate of division during the late stages of the disease. So it's it's it's a long living creature of bacterial standpoint. Yes, that's like a bacterial crock pot. Yeah, yeah. All right. What's talk about the current state of treatment and infections? Oh, but I say current. I have to mention that there are a couple old timey ways in which they were to be cures for it. One of which is mercury. Yes, inhaling mercury vapor. In fact, there is this was so common for hundreds of years that a little phrase came out of that. I'd night with Venus a lifetime with mercury. Yeah. So you would find yourself going regularly for essentially skin treatments taking these these mercury steam bats and and enduring the harmful effects of that. That mercury and elation on top of the ravages of syphilis didn't kill the spirit Keat. But yes, it also poisoned the patient. Yeah. Well, there are a few different factors involved there because I'm one hand their, you know, their arguments to what effect the mercury had in killing the Spiro Keats. But then the spirit Keets are so entrenched in the body. What can you do also again, think about that that primary and secondary stage the flare ups and the disappearance. You have individuals that could go into to be treated for for their symptoms of syphilis and low, and behold, the symptoms vanish with the treatment, not because of the treatment because of the timing of the treatment. And ultimately, again, you're dealing with four and a half centuries in which there is no cure for this illness. So if someone's trying to sell you an illness, you're going to try and buy it. That's just how it goes. You know, this disease ravaging my body. If you tell me that mercury might help, then I'm probably going to try mercury show. You're gonna try anything at that point including malaria, which is apparently something that was discovered in nineteen seventeen by Julius Wagner Georiga to help halt some of the symptoms of syphilis, particularly neurosis at advanced stage in which you get psychosis and you get paralysis. And they found that if you in induced malaria. Fever impatience, well, that could help with the actual infection. You also saw the use of so-called civilization treatments. This is where you would essentially try to inaugurate the the, the patient in the same way that you would treat them for smallpox. This didn't work submitting yourself to the disease, right? Yeah, trying to to build up, you know, bodily immunity doesn't work. Now I've, I've read some mixed reports of how experiments on rabbits in the the modern age has potentially shown some possibility there, but you get into a situation where it would take so many applications of syphilis, and and we're talking about a rabbit and it hasn't been studied enough and you would certainly could not study it in humans. So so yeah. And then also why study when we have penicillin that can wipe it out. And sometimes it's diagnosed by testing fluid from syphilis to war in looking for the. Parakeet via dark field, microscopic the name of that blood test by the way is the Wasserman blood test, and it was developed in nineteen. Oh six. Just to get everything in the timeline squared away there. So as we have mentioned, suppose can be treated with antibiotics. I, we're talking about penicillin. We're talking to Matt g venza Tyne doxycycline or tetracycline, and that's for patients who are usually allergic to penicillin in the length of treatment. Depends on the extent of the infection in factors such as the person's overall health. So let's say you didn't get to it right away and you kind of get to the second or a secondary phase of it. You would still have to deal with any sort of ill effect that you might have sustained at that point. All right. So at this point you might be wondering, what can I do to decrease my chances of of catching syphilis? Well, according to the CDC they're basically two things you can do because there's no, there's no vaccine for syphilis. We have a cure. Syphilis. But then again, you get into the problem of detecting it knowing to report it at cetera. And then even once you've treated civilised, there's no undoing any damage that it's done. So number one be a part of a long-term, mutually monogamous relationship with a partner who has been tested and has negative STD test results and never to use latex condoms the right way. Every time you have sex condoms, prevent transmission of syphilis by preventing contact with a sore. Sometimes sores occur in areas not covered by a condom. However, in contact with these source can still transmit syphilis. Because again, it's about it goes through the skin. It's not something that that travels through the the orifice. Now this might surprise you, but the people who really need to hear this most besides twenty to twenty nine year olds are senior citizens. Yes. In this surprise me, this was some some some interesting material that you discovered. We actually awhile ago. We had some. The CDC come and talk to us about STD's not because our our group needed a talking to. Outbreak at work, right? No, but because every once in a while someone will come in and sort of give us information and and it's always very interesting and he had mentioned then that retirement communities assisted living facilities. These are all hotbeds for STD's in this is in part because they are not practicing safe sex. And also you have to keep in mind that that for a long time, perhaps many of of the community members were in long term relationships, but now they probably have lost a partner and it's a very social community. There's a lot of sex going on with senior citizens in these communities and numbers from the centers for disease control and prevention show a rapid increase among older people. We're talking about between two thousand and seven, two thousand eleven Clementi infections among Americans sixty five and over increased by thirty. One percent. and syphilis by fifty, two percent. Well, see, I just had. I had no idea. I end up struggling to try and piece together like a time line for a hypothetical assisted living resident, a, how they acquire the syphilis and then how and then how they ended up passing it onto multiple people in the facility. They just need to get the old posters, you know, from the nineteen forties and put them back up. We'll talk more about that in the next episode, but they were definite campaigns. You know, trying to get some sort of awareness going with Americans about STD's indeed. Yes, we'll get into all of that in our next episode titled syphilis through the ages. Hey, Robert, don't you love a good eighties action movie recruiting montage. Oh yeah. You just drop that sweet montage music on top everything. And then all your desire to re recruitment, just start popping up. Right? Ready for action each with their own specialized skill set. Yeah, the music's pumpkin and then you. 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Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert Judy Douglas. This is part two of our little series here on syphilis the first episode, syphilis. The great imitator dealt with the the organism that causes syphilis, which is known as trip Nima Powell them. I actually just subspecies of Trump in human palate them I'm, this is all caused by this tiny tightly coiled spiral key this little bacterium that ends up causing all this trouble for those infected. So if you have not listened to that, I go back, have a listen. We will walk you through all the stages of syphilis infection from that. That from the tiny annoyances of the primary infection on up to the disastrously deforming and ultimately lethal stages of tertiary syphilis as well as the treatment of it. All right. This is been mentioned in the other episode, but it bears mentioning again, the first recorded epidemic of narrow civilised. Occurred in Europe in fourteen ninety five by the close with fifteenth century. It was pretty rampant. In fact, in Naples, Italy, there was such a huge outbreak that the pope, the said, hey, we need some help here. Soldiers were brought in twenty five thousand of them. And what do you think happened? Well, prostitutes and they got more civilised than than of course it just got worse and worse. So what we're talking about is is a disease that ravished for centuries throughout Europe. And today we're going to try to get at the the origins of it and they were going to try to tease out some of the morality that has been paired with it as well as sort of xenophobia that surrounds it as well. As I mentioned before, it's it's it's kind of difficult to overstate the importance of syphilis in western culture for those four and a half plus centuries that it. That it was a problem. And as we discussed in the last episode, syphilis is not a radically did. It is still around the day. It's still something to to be concerned about, and it's still something we have to to treat both with with with penicillin and with education. But during the fourteenth century to the early twentieth century, it was really permeating the fabric of culture. It was rampant. Yes. When we break down the percentages of it, it's going to vary depending on where in Europe you're looking, but you're generally looking at eight ten to fifteen percent of the population has syphilis, you know, with some degree margin air there and then upwards of twenty percent in military. Because again, you have younger men who are initially traveling around and they are the ones that are spreading it from place to place visiting prostitutes, it's cetera. Yeah. And because of its association with Columbus who sailed under the Spanish plague. It was. The called the Spanish disease for a while, and then the French called it the Neopolitan or Italian disease because they caught it from residents of Naples or so. They say when Abel's of course, was one of the major outbreak areas. The Russians called it, a polish disease, the polish called it a Russian disease in the Turks called it a Christian disease while the English called it the French pox. What do you see here? A lot of finger pointing, yes, it's always the other that you blame the disease on. You have to draw that firm line in your worldview between we, the clean and they the diseased and hope that that line doesn't come to invalid you as well. The the Columbus thing is so fascinating and it's a, it's a point that is continually studied in argued about. But again, we see that I big outbreak in fourteen ninety five and as we all know in fourteen hundred ninety two Columbus sailed the ocean. Yeah. So it sounds it sounds almost too good to be true slash too horrible to treat it almost sounds too easy, but but we keep coming back to it time and time. Again, here we have Columbus sailing to this drastically new land and their contact. Be at sexual or merely skin on skin is occurring between members of his his crew and the native population, and then they return to Europe and then in their wake, we see the emergence of this, this this powerful illness. Yeah, and you see a lot of wrong headed ideas about this. This idea of xenophobia, right? This fear of strangers, this idea that there are savages that have spread this disease to Europeans via Columbus. Yeah, you laid with a member of another nation. You laid with a member of a number. Never another race. All these. These weird taboos spring up in seemingly in concert with the parameters of the illness. As we mentioned before, one of the reasons that syphilis the such a captivating topic is because it's so rife for metaphor, you know, be at a metaphor of of morality, a morale, a metaphor of racism, nationalism, sexism, whatever you wanna throw at. It, it seems to conform to that that form rather nicely. Yeah. Now we will get back to Columbus and we're going to try to get to the origins of of syphilis. But before we do, it's just worth it to say that this is syphilis and trying to get to the origins of is really difficult. It's very hard to study very many strain, some of which don't exist anymore. And then you have an dodo claims throughout the centuries. So you can't really pair that with, you know, a systematic approach to say, yes, indeed, this was a case of syphilis. Because again, as we have mentioned before, syphilis is the great imitator. So it's very possible that someone had leprosy and not syphilis. Exactly. And again, that difficult to study note, you can't grow syphilis in a culture. You can't have a little Petri dish of syphilis. Even today we have to study it in rabbits. So right, you have to have it in an actual organism to really get a good idea about it. That being said there have. I've been these pre Columbian theories kicked around in other words, this idea of, hey, could syphilis have existed before the new world previous to the late fourteen hundreds in the old world that's again called the Columbian theory. Yeah, this this theory is is basically that to say that when we have other illnesses, if you look back at some accounts of leprosy, you might say, well, that that kind of leprosy doesn't match up as well with our modern understanding of leprosy. Perhaps that was a different ailment perhaps that was in fact syphilis. Instead, we're just kind of latching onto this easy explanation of Columbus since this groundbreaking expedition takes place just a few years before this major outbreak. But of course the world because it makes sense, right. I mean, the world is more complicated than one ship sailing off and coming back. There are other movements going on in the world. It's a time of great change. People are moving around not only throughout Europe. But you have movements going into into into Asia and Africa. So what? So why not? Why? Why could there not be another route for this illness to take and we'll discuss it will really try to get to the bottom of this. But so when we call when we say pre-columbian, we're talking about old world. When we talk about Colombian, we're talking about new old generally here. Old world is Europe. Old world is is western civilization, new world, the Americas, Columbia, that cetera, right. And if you're gonna talk about a new world, you have to talk about something called yaws in Beijing will. Now these are tropical diseases that are closely related to Trump Nima Polycom, which is, of course, syphilis. Although they are different Basell causes mouth sores and lumps in the bone in y'all's caused skins ores in disfiguring gross on the leg. So of course they're related to syphilis, but they are non venereal, right? They're spread through skin-to-skin contact. They're not they're. They're not. Straight up the near diseases. Granted, you could catch them in skin-to-skin contact during sexual intercourse, but they're not depending on that as their mode of transmission the, yeah, but these are all Trump animal diseases. The euro. These are all close relatives of the subspecies of trumpeting Paladin that causes syphilis and we bring them up because they are important to study. If you're if you're trying to look at where syphilis civilised originated from, then you're going to want to look at y'all's ambassadorial because paleo pathologic Bruce in Christine, Rothschild used that information to point toward a new world. Origin of syphilis may examined six hundred eighty seven skeletons from archaeological sites in the US rigging about ranging in age from four hundred to six thousand years. And what they found is that populations to the south look to have syphilis while those to the north had yaws. And then by contrast the exam. One thousand old world skeletons dating to before contact with a new world, and they found zero cases of syphilis. So this kind of gets you onto the route of, well, maybe the new world did have the case of syphilis. Oh, it's not that clear cut is we'll discuss. And this leads us to what is called the unitarian hypothesis which has nothing to do with Unitarians. The religious sense of the world where don't worry Unitarians we're not. We're not nailing this one on you unitarian, in the sense of that that it unites the old world and new world hypotheses regarding the emergence of syphilis in Europe. The basic idea here is that you do have Columbus in his sailors setting sail from Europe to the new world to the Americas, and when they're there, they do come into skin-to-skin contact, sexual and non sexual with natives there. And then they end up acquiring Trump animal diseases. Now, you know, again to the jewel to to pinch, I think to yours, but not necessarily syphilis proper, but they bring back a relative of syphilis may bring it back to a drastically new incubation world. We're talking about a different environment because in the in the Americas, you know, individuals who syphilis they're going to largely be in, you know, smaller communities, but then you bring them to a European port town. You bring it to a world where individuals aware wearing. More close. Thus allowing for less skin on skin contact. You bring it to a world where you have brothels a world where you have tiny ships tightly packed with men sailing from one port to the next port throughout Europe. And what happens according to this hypothesis is that the the trip in name will disease changes and and we get this subspecies of trumpeting palim that causes syphilis as we know it. So it is a story of new tation under new environmental circumstances. Yeah. If anyone is interested in taking a deeper dive into this and and some of the skeletal evidence behind this, there is a paper or two thousand twelve paper called the science behind pre-columbian evidence of syphilis in Europe research by documentary. And that goes into this much more. And I wanted to quote Molly documentaries. One of the authors of paper, she says in reality, it appears that venereal syphilis was the by product of two different population. Meeting in exchanging pathogen. It wasn't adaptive event, the natural selection of disease independent of morality or blame. It's not a situation of all those sinful sailors there. Oh, those diseased natives in this new world. It's it's something more complicated than that. Yeah. In, you know, at the outset of this, the researchers for this paper, they really wanted to to sort of disprove this idea that Columbus and his crew were vectors for syphilis because they thought it can't be that just, you know, Columbus and his his guys hung out in America and then brought it back to Europe and spread supplus all over the place. Can't be that simple and it's not that simple. You know, because the trick here is that it mutated adapted rather, but they really, they went into it with the intent of saying knack, can't be. Yeah, because it does sound like something you would read and sort of. Spiracy theory kind of message board, right? Like hold lease two dates lineup, we can correlate this a little bit. Therefore that must be what happened now you, we do want to drive home that these are all hypotheses and this is still an area that everyone's there are a lot of papers that come out about this. There's a lot of discussion. A lot argument lasted did a lot of disagreement. So there's no definitive answer here, and it may indeed be one of those areas where we never have a definitive answer. It's true. And you know the the researchers who worked on that paper also worked. Some of them worked on a different paper. Looking at fifty, four published reports of pre Columbian evidence and skeletal remains of syphilis. And they found there that again, there wasn't enough supporting information and real evidence to say that it existed in its form of syphilis, as we know in talk about it now in the old world. So again, there seems to be some sort of direction here. Terms of the way the the river is streaming with information. But it doesn't mean that this is the end point of the origins of syphilis, and we're gonna talk about more of the sort of sites since owns and smells of what it might be like in a syphilis era in Europe. And I wanted to just read this. This is from the BBC a cultural history of syphilis says in the fourteen ninety s in apparently new and terrifying disease struck Naples in southern Italy and swift fire, like across Europe, reaping a dreadful, human cost. It must have been as though Hel had come to earth pustules spread across the genitals in the face of its many sufferers, unbearable gastro intestinal pain followed upon fevers screamingly, severe headaches and other symptoms. Finally, we'll ash fell from bones. Syphilis had arrived in Europe where it would stay misunderstood, lacking any form of cure for. Five hundred years. Yeah, it's it's pretty rough sounding. And again, remember that this was not a disease that affected just the poor. This was a disease that affected rich and poor like that affected royalty and peasant that affected clergy members. Anyone there was engaging in sexual contact, ran the risk, a high risk of of acquiring this this illness. And yeah, this was not a quiet sort of illness. I mean, people could smell you before you even came around and we're talking about rotting flesh. We are talking about your face bearing the marks of syphilis your body bearing the marks of it. In fact, you could even kind of see it as sort of scarlet letter a lot into your flesh. Yeah, again, the the metaphorical power. Syphilis is unavoidable here because you already have the idea in western culture that that physical deformities may signal inner deformities that that that. Than an inner send can have a flesh -ly manifestation, and it's super easy to apply that line of thinking to syphilis because here's something that's spread through sex, here's something to spread through through sin if you will, and and then has these these terrifying physical manifestations certainly in its later stages. So it's it's easy then for someone to point the figure and say this, this is the way these are the wages of sin right here. All you have to do is look at this individual. Look at the look at the the sores on their body, look at the deformities of their facial feature, look what has happened to them. And and so you see this just throughout its throughout its four and a half centuries of of unchecked rampaging and even beyond into the twentieth century and even into the twenty-first, there's there's a moral aspect to syphilis and two other venereal diseases. This is something you caught because you were doing something that would wrong. Like that's the script that is often applied. The scenario? Yeah. And now people have the sort of calling card hallmarks of that disease, right? They look at you and they say, oh, I'm you, see you've, you've got a nasty rash there. You've lost your hair. Perhaps your nose is even caving into what's called saddle knows. And so what do people do? We'll they try to find anything and everything that might cover up their transgressions or what would be perceived as transgressions and bear in mind again through all of this, that there are no set of standards symptoms for syphilis, and there are stages where it's undetectable, so so every everyone's going crazy with ways to detect and treat it while the the illness it self is is, is so difficult to get your hands on. It's the great imitator. It's the, it's the the great Hyder. So, yeah, bad stuff is happening to your body in the varying stages of syphilis. So one thing you might do is to course you make cover things up since we are wearing clothes, we're wearing makeup. You can apply clothing and makeup to cover up your source. Yeah. In fact, simplest just creates his whole cottage industry of of different things you can buy in due to either feel better or look better. So there might be some sort of snake oil that you can buy. Right that has absolutely no medical merit, or you might visit your local wig maker quite a bit. Because again, you want to cover up the ball patch on your head or the baldness so that people don't suspect that you have syphilis. And if you are prostitute, a merkin is a must, because yeah, you might be saving your PB care anyway to cut down on lice. But then you also might have an outbreak of syphilis down there. You want to disguise the sign. So you get a wig for your genitals also called a merkin, which is. Not a muppet character. Yeah, there apparently used a lot now in for films, especially historical films. Yeah, yeah. But historically, it was more a matter of venereal diseases for the men generally wasn't really an option because the well, there's just more to cover up down there and just do a Google search. You'll see what I'm talking about. All right. Yeah, there are some logistics there that you can't quite cover with a merkin, but what happens when your nose caves in and your flesh begins to rot away? Well, this creates a problem and in general it, it was kind of a rough time for noses. Anyway, if you'll remember the story of Tico Broadway the the astronomer. I think we didn't episode or at least he's come. He comes up at time sewed. Yeah, yeah, fascinating. Individual I, there may be some biographers that that creep syphilis in there, but but I think it's pretty established that that he lost the nose in a dual. So on on one level. Well, you can lose that knows in a dual living an adventurous lifestyle, getting yourselves into arguments with other armed gentlemen, but you can also acquire syphilis through your adventurous lifestyle. And then you see the saddle, nose eventual rotting away of the nose. So one thing you can do is you can buy a fake nose to wear over your destroyed knows and this is this is simple. That sounds if you've ever seen a digital underground video and you've seen Humpty hump with the the big fake nose on his on his face who, incidentally, according to the backstory losted frying accident, I believe so. So no dueling or syphilis involved with Humpty, but but it's basically the same scenario. A fake knows that is strapped onto the body or held with wires over the over the the the, the vacant area. Yeah. In fact, in this is according to Lindsey, fa- terrorist who is a medical historian and writes on the Cairo jn apprentice, which is a great website documenting medical surgeries. She writes that this deformity was so common amongst those suffering from the pox as it was sometimes called the no no's clubs sprang up in London on February eighteenth eighteen seventy four. The star reported miss ten born tells us in central gentleman, having tankan taken a fancy to see a large party of knows Lois persons invited everyone, thus afflicted whom he met in the streets to dine on a certain day at a tavern where he formed them into a brotherhood and on this site again that Lindsey fits Harris has put together. There is a great example of one of these sort of noses that attached to a pair of glasses that's attached to. A sort of almost like a headgear like early headgear braces, and it's one that that a female patient war. Yeah. And you can imagine that Warren with a wig and it makes makes perfect sense. And you know, the no no's club also makes a lot of sense because if you're you're dealing with this illness, you're having to cover yourself up and where this this, this fake knows over your your your face. I mean, there's gonna come a time when you want to be able to just take that off and be yourself no matter what has happened to yourself in this illness. You wanna be able to just say, hey, here we are. We may not have noses anymore because of this illness, but hey, where people and we want to look at each other like where people and not worry about, oh, what's in all these other people that don't have syphilis or don't realize they have syphilis wearing other stages of the illness are looking at me and judging me for for what I am and making judgments about my moral character based on what has happened well and fits Harris, has that blog posts still syphilis a love. Story, which essentially talks about this when I believe it is miss Samborn, who eventually takes the fake news off at her husband's request because he accepts her as she is. You know, it's interesting. I was listening to that BBC program, the cultural history of syphilis, which I'll I'll linked to on the the landing page for this podcast episode, but they, they go into some of the cases of individuals, particularly in the the seventeenth century who end up if not finding pride in their civic appearance, they at least you know, come to own it. You see individuals like Sir, William Davin int sixteen six through sixteen sixty eight. There's a poet playwright, and he was famously not shy about being painted or depicted in artwork without a false nose. So you see a very sunk in saddle, nose, you know, almost vacant, you know, part of his facial features, and he was pretty upfront about it. Another instance, you have artist Gerard. Ardila Reese sixteen forty one through seventeen eleven, who's actually a prominent painter, and he was born with congenital syphilis and he he was. There's actually a painting of him by Rembrandt, which I'll put on the blog for everyone to see because it's it's a, it's a Rembrandt p. So it's it's splendid to behold, but here's an individual who you know who's sitting for a portrait. He's he's, he's open and and free about who he is. You know, he's not trying to hide it at this point. And you see a number of individuals say John Wilmot the second Earl Rochester who is portrayed by Johnny Depp in the movie of libertine. You see individuals like this who basically say, yeah, I have syphilis. I have had a wildlife and the the wages of having that loud life are syphilis. So it's it's almost like a bag of honor. Yeah, it's like when you hear, I've heard people say, point at Rockstars aging Rockstars, say who they look rough, but they party. Hard to get there. You know to say that what has happened to them is is like a badge of honor because it says they have enjoyed their younger life, and that is why they're they're older form is so decrepit I, then that's what you're seeing in some of these individuals. Now, granted, these are individuals that were living at the in the upper echelon of society. So they had a little more room to, you know, to grab onto that pride, they weren't dying of syphilis, you know, in in the slums in, likewise, some of these individuals to also had taken to various ideas about how civilised could be treated. So they thought that perhaps they're, they're syphilis, was being treated and managed by regular mercury treatments in one of those mercury steam baths, which as we mentioned in the previous episode may was likely making their symptoms worse. In some cases, said they thought that a, they were above sort of some of the social rules in place because of their position in society m b that they might. Might have been vanquishing it. So they were not quite as concerned about how they looked perhaps. Yeah. And if you're if you're looking at the body from a less religious standpoint, you're looking at more from a hedonistic or even mechanical standpoint. You're then you're saying, hey, I live in a world in which syphilis exists. And if I behave certain way, syphilis is what happens to my body. You know some of these cases to see individuals where they they, they, they're almost happy when they finally catch syphilis because it means it if nothing else, it means they don't have to worry about catching syphilis anymore. You know, they're, they're, they're no longer living in the shadow of syphilis, but within the dark of syphilis. And you can see where there might be a certain amount of empowerment. They are certainly if you have to latch onto something, you might as well add onto that. Although, again, you have to be in a really specific social position to Jim that and you'd have to be a male for certain DOE. Yes, indeed. Now, if you had the money, the wherewithal in you. Did not want to wear a fake nose, or you weren't ready to come out to the world that had syphilis than you would try a kind of nasal reconstruction, which in the sixteenth century was called the Indian method, and this involved cutting a no sized section of skin from the forehead. So there's again another calling card or hallmark that you have the disease because your nose looks great, but you got to patch skin. Bigwig. That's true. That's true. Do you have a nice wig, but they take that skin from the forehead and they would attach it to the bridge of the nose to maintain a study blood supply. And then that flap was twisted into place in stone over the damaged area which kinda created a replacement nose. But again, it wasn't perfect in, you know, really cold weather. It would not turn the same color as the rest of your nose who there were certain telltale signs that it it may look like Intech knows, but it is not your perhaps knows that you were born with, but it turns out there's a better in perhaps more horrific way to take a stab at plastic surgery or early plastic surgery, what it is tempting to say. It's ridic- but it. But in another way, it's kind of beautiful and he gets it how Malia bore flesh really is because, again, modern plastic surgery. The plastic is referring to the plasticity of the flesh. That you can craft flesh into a form, and actually this method did and does informed plastic surgeons about how skin grows and how you can molded and sculpted. So yeah, in this we see the sixteenth century advent of the talian method to to picture this. If you don't have an image of it in front of you, and and if you're not driving a car doing anything where you need your hands place, place your your palm of your hand, kind of on your forehead. Okay. And then allow your nose to to touch your arm. That is basically the position where the surgeon would would lock your arm into place. There'd be like a head vice type scenario going on so that you could not move your arm away. You cannot move your the the Fleischer arm away from the Fleischer face. And then that's where you perform the the, the skin graft. You walk a pentacle flash, you sort of cut it away from the forearm needs stitched into place where the nose should be employed. Of the nose eve lost to syphilis or duels or what have you. And then that's held in place while the the, the grafted skin grows onto the face. So for a brief period of time, you have effectively sewn your arm or my surgeon has effectively sewn your arm to your face. And then once the graft is taken, then you cut the arm away from it and you've, you've essentially walked as a piece of flesh off of your arm onto your face and then use that to form a new nose, which is kind of brilliant. Honestly, you asked a plastic surgeon at this and they'll be like, this is a great way to try to get the skin to graft onto other skin and then be able to shape it. The only problem here is that for about two weeks, you're walking around with your your hand, stuck your head and you can't really move your nose right? Because that's now stuck to your arm the I'm guessing you're probably not doing a whole lot of walking around town like that, but but yeah, ver- there's. Is going to be a weird period there, but you know the Italian method, it's a remarkable what it can do like it may be Br, summoning images of like a really bad plastic surgery job or something. But I've, I've seen some images particularly like particularly late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds in which you see multiple pedestals of flesh that are essentially walked up the body to the face to repair individuals who say, lost their lower jaw to to to gunshot wound, and then you're able to walk all these pedals up to the face, and it looks kind of gasoline at first, but then you start putting them in their place. And at the end of the price of this series of procedures, you have a much more normal looking visage they are in place of the damaged tissue. So in in in this scenario, we see the impact of syphilis on early rhino pass plastic in Europe. But we also see other ways in which syphilis ends up change. The way that that that medicine is practiced through throughout the the old world. For instance, I immediately challenged humor ISM and the doctrine of contagion that was prevalent of the day. We also see syphilis as a catalyst for modern doctor, patient confidentiality because suddenly it becomes kind of a calling card for some doctors, hey, let me treat you for your syphilis because I'll keep it on the down low. Now. He just kinda take that for granted that we only do a doctor. They're not going to black about syphilis to everyone in the neighborhood. Hey, Robert, you love a good murder. Mystery, right? Oh, yeah. I love a good detective story today. We are sponsored by a murder, mystery entertainment experience, and it's called hunter killer. Now, hunter killer is not a movie Snyder TV show. It's not a book. It is a subscription service for a fictional murder mystery. You become a character, a detective inside the story, and you try to solve a murder mystery using clues mailed to you each month. So each month you're gonna get a package that will have more clues items, correspondence back story that will build up to a conclusion of this murder mystery. 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This is another key fact that was brought up in the book clean by Virginia Smith that have referenced before and podcast, and that is that previously you had, you'd go into your your local barber shop, and you'd have the Barbara tonsils in the front by resurgence in the back. You have your haircut, your buffet shaved, all of that. Take place in the front of the building and go into the back into the yard or what have you. That's where you would receive minor surgeries. That's where you would take a bath and saying later as as civilised begins to spread, that's where you start getting treated for syphilis. That's where you might take your mercury bat. And so the the prevalence of the disease and fear regarding the diseases read leads to regulation. This relate this leads to of course paranoia. And so you see the two separate so easy. The separation of the barber Tuncer in the barber surgeon. It's right because that red and white striped barber pole. East to indicate that there were surgeries down there, right? Anybody's ever wondered why that pull is outside of a haircut every all right. So that's its impact on on on medicine in medical surgeries as well as cottage industries like wigmakers, right? Yes. And people who are selling, you know, snake oils, but there are certain things that you cannot cover up here when it comes to syphilis, and one of the things would be your teeth. Now you could pull your teeth. You could put dentures him, but if he didn't want to do that, you kinda saddled with the ravages of your teeth by syphilis in one of the more. Particular things we see here with the teeth is something that pops up in cases of congenital syphilis, and that's something known as Hutchinson teeth. These are. You know, as with all things, syphilis, the exact symptoms vary. But these is often typified by sharpened looking teeth or peg shaped teeth that kind of have sharpened points on the edges. You can look for for images this online. I think I am. Actually, I did a blog post that I'll linked to on the landing page for this podcast episode that includes the image that Julian hi, but looking at now, but they do have kind of monstrous appearance. He's like sharpened teeth inside of a human mouth, but Julie canine teeth. Yes. Say we start to look at this for a little bit and naturally you, your mind would turn to vampire teeth because that's kind of what this looks like. It looks like he's sort of NAS, Ferrato version of vampire teeth. Yeah. And it's led some commentators to argue that the the, the evolution of the vampire myth in in western civilization may have connections to cases of congenital or hereditary syphilis. The children are born like this, they have this kind. They could have the in addition to these teeth also have a long gated fingers. They may have elongated skull their various other deformities that might be interpreted as monstrous by by somebody taking in the scenario and another connection between vampires and syphilis, arguably takes us to Brahms Stoker himself. The author of the book Dracula and another area where vampires and syphilis seem to converge is in the case of the eighteen ninety seven novel Dracula by Bram Stoker. Now, Brahms Stoker's exact cause of death, and he died in nineteen twelve at remains, you know, somewhat something in the mystery, but some biographers attribute is death to tertiary syphilis and make the further argument that Dracula itself as literary work is is kind of reflecting not only the para. Annoy re regarding syphilis that's present in the culture, but also Stoker's own experience with the illness itself because you look at vampires, we'll get back to and you see something that is at once sexual. In monstrous. He see this, this, this outsider that has come to this case to England and is is spreading this this illness of vampirism this this alien pathogen to to to to to women in the in the in the area. Yes, they are puncturing the women. So can you have to use the metaphor which always comes up sex vampires? Right. In fact, there is, you sent me this link to a class that's offered the classes, the vampire in literature and cinema taught by Thomas love, Loginov it who's a professor of Slavic and comparative literature, and he uses that vampire lore to explore folk. Caloric explanations of disease epidemics, which makes sense rate, especially fear. You're caught up in this. You'll say, it's the sixteenth century as seventeenth century in this is pervasive disease, and you have all of these sort of myths surrounding it. It's possible that that people could sort of extrapolate like maybe there are empires. Maybe this is how it's being spread your four and a half centuries in which we could not cure it. So you're throwing what you cannot you throwing you're throwing actual research or throwing snake oil. You're throwing mercury steam baths. You're throwing religion and again, because again, it just can't be it can't be overstated the the connection between between morality and in syphilis here, at least in the way that people try to understand it or at least ended up viewings society. And so, yeah, you throw in a little myth and there you throw a little magical thinking and and and there you go, you can easily see the empire emerge, nothing concrete there, but some food for thought. Which may be why a vampire in the form of count Spooner Keat shows up in a navy video in the seventies talking about STD's, right? Yes. And you can watch this. I linked to the via the video on a blog post. I did for stuff to blow your mind. It's actually a fabulous documentary. It's kind of the style of of schoolhouse rocks and and has a Scooby doo element to it as well. Yeah, it's it's very silly. Look even when they get into some of the rougher stuff such as congenital syphilis or or actually showing illustrations of genitals. It's like the setup is very cartoon. It's, uh, death himself is having an award ceremony handing out the coveted fourth horseman award for a disease that's that's done the best work in causing misery and death around the world and who should win it, but count Spiro Keat who represents syphilis the, the embodiment of gonorrhea takes issue with it. Some of the other illnesses, like what's so great about. Spiro key. What's he doing? There's a cure for at blah, blah, blah. And so death and Spiro key. Mainly death goes on to explain to us why, how this works and why it is a problem and why enlisted navy men while why sailors should be on guard and should go seek treatment income. They have any kind of a flare out which gets into this whole rich tradition of the military, trying to bring a level of awareness of STD's to to everyone. In fact, if you go back to or one immoral to you will see all sorts of pamphlets and posters, warning military members to be very careful to watch out for stiff, watch out for gonorrhea in it even reminded me of our quarantine episode in which we talked about the US military quarantining prostitutes in an attempt to try to separate what they thought as disease-carrying prostitutes. With STD's from military members? Yes. So you have you, you have these campaigns that are basically, you know, since saying, hey sailors. When you go into the next port town, please stay away from the prostitutes because you could catch syphilis, and it's bad news and you have to bear in mind too. That even after the advent of penicillin, you'll have situations particularly in wartime where there's there's not an unlimited amount of penicillin to throw at at your your navy men's venereal diseases. The you have. You've had that a lot of that penicillin is earmarked for the battlefield for for use in in in helping with soldiers have been injured in combat. You don't wanna spend it all just on a bunch of forty sailors who can't control themselves when they go into a foreign port of call. So they're throwing education at the problem as well, but they're speaking to a male audience and and so the the messaging tends to take on very sexist feel. Yeah. In fact, one of the posters which I'm looking at. Right now is really good example. It's it's a photograph of a girl that looks, you know, kind of innocent and pure, and you know, very Rockwell, this Norman, Rockwell, Cowan looking at Rockwell. In fact, she has this sort of be Tiffin smile on as if you know she's doing godly work. And then there are some servicemen who are looking at her at a distance and across this poster, it says she may look clean, but in the but is in Allred in all caps. And it says, pickups, goodtime, girls, prostitutes, spreads syphilis, and gonorrhea. You can't beat the access is if you get v d and and what I think is so interesting about this is that there are many other posters that have more. I don't know. What would you say tawdry looking women that there are basically saying they are prostitutes, but then you have this other sort of, like I said, it'd be to fix mild innocent looking girl. And the point is, as you say is that they're speaking to men in, they're really underscoring this idea, the STD's Niro diseases all begin with women. They are the font of evil. Yeah. I mean, this, this, this darkness, in the woman, it's almost like the the, the, the feminine form as monster is the message here. And you see, again, you do see some more fantastic horrific visions of this. There's one where the woman is like moving a hand, held mask away from her face and behind it. There's a death skull, if Salvador Dali, illustration that he did for an anti syphilis poster and what you see the the two buxom women that, yeah, I guess it kind of melting. But they looked like a death skull. It's one of those one of his classic stoutly images. We see the death's head in the form of the women. I'll be sure to throw that on stuff to your mind dot com as well. So everyone can see it weren't you telling me about this sixteenth century hypothesis of the woman as really the germinating of syphilis? Yeah, yeah. There was this notion that to syphilis emerge because you had you had women. You had prostitutes who were having sex with multiple men, and then those Siemens would those different seeds would be inside her and they would mean go together and corrupt into the form of syphilis. So you know, they had no, there was no proof to back up this ridiculous theory, but it did place the blame firmly on on women and very moralistic as well. These women are are sending and therefore you have a sickness arising from them. They are the source of the ailment itself. Yeah, and I not not to get too. Crazy here, but it's just kind of brings me back. This idea of which is and we talked about which is, and we talked about, you know, the power of women and sexuality. And again, here we are crowding this sort of power that's death to women in the form of syphilis. And I, you know, I don't know that that's what all the poster artists intended, but it certainly captured the spirit of times. And again, they were talking to a predominantly male audience is we mentioned before, even in in over the centuries that syphilis was really ravaging Europe. You saw the highest percentages of infection in the in soldiers or certainly a higher percentage than in the rest of the population. So soldiers and prostitutes were a key area of transference indeed. All right. So there you have it again, there's there's not enough time in even in a series of podcasts to really get into all the ways it's syphilis informed western culture during its. A four and a half centuries of unchecked life. But but hopefully we hit some of the high points we hit. Some of the the ideas were clay here about about us versus the other about men and women about the morality about the the cosmetics, dealing with syphilis, and if nothing else it should serve as an interesting starting point for your own exploration of the top and also touching on the origin of it as well. And and knowing that we don't have the end all be all theory in place yet, but we do have an idea of where it came from. All right. You guys can find this at a multitude of places. Yeah, that's right. Go to Steph to blow your mind dot com. That is the mother ship. You will find all the blog post the podcasts, videos, et cetera, including a number of different items related to this syphilis series that we've put out. For more on this and foulland's of other topics visit how stuff works dot com. When you're hiring, you don't wanna waste time. You want an efficient way to get to your shortlist of qualified candidates. That's why you need indeed, dot com. Used by over three million businesses post a job in minutes, set up screener questions than zero in on qualified candidates using intuitive online dashboard, and when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs. New users can try for free at indeed dot com slash stuff that's indeed dot com slash stuff, terms conditions and quality standards apply.

syphilis syphilis Europe Naples penicillin United States fever cure Dr William Osler Google Washington Post Robert Lamm Julie Douglas Italy Robert Spiro Keats Charles Schenker Columbus HIV BBC
Tuskegee Syphilis Study investigation announced - August 24, 1972

This Day in History Class

08:05 min | 1 year ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study investigation announced - August 24, 1972

"From fireworks on the fourth of july two long holiday weekends away. There's plenty to look forward to during the summer but why way to celebrate new deliciously spreadable konichi kana cheese singles is giving you a reason to celebrate every single day with their single best. Stay sweepstakes visit create with cacani dot com for your chance wants to win fifty dollars daily prizes and a grand prize of one thousand dollars plus get tips and inspiration to help make every single day the best day ever this day in history. Class is a production of iheartradio. What's up everyone. Welcome to this day in history class where we bring you a new tidbit bit from history every day. Today is august twenty fourth two thousand nineteen the day it was august twenty fourth nineteen seventy-two dr merlin k. divall all assistant secretary of the u._s. Department of health education and welfare announced that there would be an investigation into the two skied syphilis study. The study of untreated syphilis in the negro male as it was called began in nineteen thirty to the u._s. Public health service had joined with ski institute a historically black school in alabama to study the natural history of syphilis at the time time syphilis and other sexually transmitted infections were a major issue in the u._s. Large scale efforts to fight s. T. is had been underway since it's world war one during which s._t._i.'s were a common cause for disability and absence from duty in the army but many people living in poverty in rural areas still did not have access to treatment when they did have access to medicine there were often not able to afford it so the public health service and the julius rosenwasser fund a philanthropic foundation collaborated in treating people with syphilis in the south in the late nineteen twenty s and early nineteen thirties but the great depression hit and in nineteen thirty two the fund pulled out of the treatment program which had expanded to five states the public health service did not have the resources to continue the program on its own so instead of a focusing on treatment the p. h. S. decided to switch directions and study. The effects of untreated syphilis on living people black people were widely affected by syphilis and researchers were studying racial differences in the effects of the sti the p. h. S. turned to the tuskegee league institute known for his service in black communities for help in launching its new study in exchange the p. h. S. paid tuskegee trained. It's interns and employed. It's nurses the p. h. S. also worked with black community leaders to encourage participation in the study. Many people were willing to participate since they had no access to medical care otherwise on top of that participants got food and transportation and family members scott burial stipends in the beginning six hundred black men were signed up for the study three hundred ninety nine with syphilis in two hundred one who did not have fillets but the participants were not told that they had syphilis instead. They were told that they had bad blood. A catchall colloquialism that was used used to describe several illnesses. The study was supposed to last six months. Study participants were monitored but they were only given have been placebos like aspirin. That was even the case after the p. h. S. began to give people with syphilis. Penicillin as treatment in nineteen forty-three and after penicillin became the recommended treatment for syphilis in nineteen forty-seven the researchers wanted to track the full progression of syphilis list so they gave participants no effective care syphilis left untreated for many years can spread to the brain or eye and caused ause paralysis dementia blindness and even death still wants local health departments began working with the p._h._s. to track people who had to left macon county alabama they to kept study participants from receiving treatment but in the nineteen sixties p. h. S. employees peter peter buxton was an sti interviewer and investigator and he found out about the tuskegee study in raised concerns about its ethics but the centers for disease control and prevention which controlled the study determined that this study needed to continue with the support of the american medical association creation and the national medical association officials wanted to see the steady through until participants died and they analyze all the data they collected so buxton leaked the story and in july of nineteen seventy-two associated press reporter gene heller broke the story the next month it was announced that an ad hoc panel would investigate the study the panel recommended ending tuskegee experiment immediately mmediately and on november sixteenth merlin duval assistant secretary of health and the u._s. Department of health education and welfare issued an administrative ministration order shutting it down by then twenty eight participants died from syphilis. One hundred others died from syphilis related complications forty spouses of participants had also been diagnosed with syphilis and the infection had been passed to nineteen children of the participants in nineteen seventy-three. Senator edward kennedy held congressional subcommittee meetings that resulted in new guidelines for working with human subjects and u._s. S. government funded studies that same year a class action. Lawsuit was filed on behalf of the participants in their families. A a ten million dollar out of court settlement was reached in nineteen seventy four the tuskegee health benefit program was created and it began providing lifetime medical benefits and burial services to living participants to spouses of living and deceased participants and to their children. The last <unk> study participant died in two thousand four. The unethical experiment ignited a deep distrust in public health institutions among black americans. Yes i'm jeffcoat and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. Keep up with us on twitter instagram instagram and facebook at t h c podcast. Thanks for joining me on this trip through time. See you here her and the exact same spot tomorrow <music> <music> for more podcasts from iheartradio visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows us in the montgomery county maryland courthouse there are thousands of pages of documents detailing the horrific murders of three innocent people people soon as i heard the details. I knew my dad was involved right away. Instantly i says lawrence but at the time of the murders lawrence horn was clear across across the country. I'm jasmine. Morris from iheartradio hit home media. This is hitman. Listen and subscribe at apple podcasts on the iheartradio heart radio app or wherever you listen to podcasts.

syphilis tuskegee assistant secretary tuskegee league institute lawrence horn apple Senator edward kennedy peter peter buxton iheartradio penicillin aspirin Morris twitter alabama s. T. macon county
Many Kinds of Lesions

Morgellons Discussion

22:22 min | 2 months ago

Many Kinds of Lesions

"And welcome back to Morgellons discussion on anchor FM. I'm your host Jeremy Murphy and today I wanted to go over this new study that just came out this past February 8th last vacation and staging of Morgellons disease lessons from syphilis. Now the reason I want to go into this is because I don't hear a lot of people talking about the data that's in this study. And and I want to be clear. I don't have any evidence that there is any kind of Association of syphilis with more jealous disease. It seems that those fibers consistently show evidence of borrelia foundation, but treponem hasn't been demonstrated yet. In the meantime. However, there are a lot of people presenting with a lot of odd skin off symptoms that That they may feel since it's so odd. It is more jealous, but to be clear more jelen's is only the presence of microscopic amounts embedded in skin tissue of varying colors. We do know that the blue Morgellons fibers are colored blue because they are stained with human. Melanin. So but outside of morgellons. Let's try not to clear my throat so much today, but this is kind of a Dusty environment will move it on up eventually in this latest thodi they'd roll on the history of more General history of syphilis. And there is a 1926 paper called secondary syphilis lesion that they draw a lot of information from and I just want to read bits from that paper secondary syphilitic lesions because a lot of people with a lot of skin symptoms that aren't easily explained. I think may find this information beneficial. Let me know what you think. So the first thing we want to look at is table one in this study and table one is characteristics of early secondary conditions. So the type of lesion and then they list a few of them here, but we'll go down the list. The first one is a macular. Characteristic appearances a pale pink flat and somewhat elliptical spot usually 428 millimeter in diameter. These maybe violaceous and darker-skinned individuals. The central area is always more highly colored whereas the periphery tends to blend into the surrounding skin the reddish Hue due to localized hyperemia resolves Under Pressure. So probably the most common type of cutaneous lesion. These are often overlooked or misdiagnosed. Distribution on the body macular lesions never appear on the face in contrast to all other types of syphilis. And so the differential diagnosis for macular lesions includes arrhythmia multiforme, silver, Eric dermatitis and rosacea wage. A lot of words that I just can't pronounce leprosy measles German Measles typhoid fever toxic dermatitis. That sounds especially concerning the toxic dermatitis. Holy crap. All right. So the next one down the list characteristics of early secondary lesions associated with syphilis small popular. Their characteristic appearance is small distinct localized elevations of skin which are readily populated solid rounded resistance to touch berries and colors depending on skin pigmentation may assume a pustular characteristic character with no exit 8 a pimple without pus in most areas such as general areas the brain and Xillia they may appear in the form of flat condylomas. The Distribution on the body most commonly favor the trunk may appear on any part of the body including flicks or surfaces of the limbs forehead and temples these lesions often border on the scalp in the form of so-called crown of Venus. That's interesting. Never heard that one before the differential on. Those are your the multiform psoriasis pityriasis? Keratosis home for really Ola lichens planus and mycosis fungoides and some more there, of course always include links to what we're talking about on the show in the description below. If that doesn't come across on the other platforms. It'll definitely always be there on anchor. I know Apple's doing it a pretty sure that folks were also getting that on SoundCloud. So the next one down on the list is follicular or pseudo basic. ulcer pseudo vesicular suit of Ezekiel round or pointed papules which develop on the orifices of hair follicles and sweat glands wage vary in size from pinpoint depend head vary in color depending on skin pigmentation. Pigman Terry deposits are frequent scaling often appears at the apex of the lesion may also be in involuted frequently larger in the genital and anal lesions pitching maybe frequent due to sweat decomposition. These on the body it may appear anywhere these lesions tend to group and are generally most abundant on the back of the trunk and arms they are also frequently found on the thighs and face. I'm just going to do the top differential on these the lichens planus glitch and kitchen kitchen and bath dermatitis cuz and then the next one we've got here is Lich annoyed. Lich annoyed the type of lesion that appears in early secondary syphilis flattened and angulated lesions resembling which in plainness home. They may appear on any part of the body. These lesions also are generally most abundant on the back of your trunk and arms the differential on that of course is the lichens planus next one up is the secular. It says it's characteristically pointed very small and ruptured only with difficulty with reddish raised base without an inflammatory areola often found in combination with small popular relations, May constitute a transient intermediate type of Asian existence is questionable as the vegetables are of short duration and often present for only a few hours could appear anywhere on the body and the differential is rhythmic multiform psoriasis. keratosis Next one down is psoriasis form psoriasiform characteristically these lesions resembled those of psoriasis and color distribution of scaling they offer from psoriasis and that the lesions Never Bleed when the scale is removed. That's interesting. They are found predominantly on the palms of the hands and soles of feet may also occur on the face elbows and knees the scalp. However is exempt differential on that is psoriasis. The last one for the early secondary lesion is Corian be form. Quorum be form appearance of a nipple with a well-marked areola these tend to be unusual in that they are large lesions or plaques surrounded by a number of smaller versions could show up anywhere on the body and this is important. No other dermatologic disease causes this type of lesions. A nipple. Wow, so if you got that going on it can only be syphilis. All right. So that was the table one characteristics of early secondary syphilis from early secondary lesions from this 1926 paper secondary syphilitic lesions. It was indexed on PubMed in 2005. We're going to write down to table two characteristics of secondary late. late secondary lesions Okay. So first one is the large popular. Characteristically much like the small popular variety except that they they then to be flattened although distinctly elevated and less Rowdy marks and let's see towards grouping and plaque formation seldom crowded together often sparsely scattered May coalesce to form lesion suggestive of tuberculosis lights off Distribution on the body may appear anywhere predilection for the forehead face back of the neck lens Benz and inner thighs the differential on that of course is psoriasis pityriasis. I hope I'm saying that right and I'll definitely look it up. So we do it right next time keratosis. Next one comes on late. Secondary lesion is annular. Popular syphilis, which have a certain date configuration one form appears to develop from a single papule spreading peripherally and forming a ring off or taking the form of gyrate patches a number of papules May unite to form a hollow or solid ring and give rise to the second type. Usually annular are spawned actually distributed. They can appear on any part of the body predilection for the mute kokuten mucocutaneous Junction of the nasal and the oral connoisseurs. Usually not on the limbs usually in Caucasians the differential includes tenia Corpus corporis sabores dermatitis and Pedigo. Fascinating stuff in the studies from a long time ago when they had more of these cases and it was more seen more frequently than nowadays. I'm pretty sure doctors don't know how to recognize syphilis and just don't consider it. I think most doctors nowadays just assumed that syphilis went away with off with Penicillin or if it does, you know come in and see easily treated but when it gets into the late stages, we have evidence that it can persist Beyond appropriate antibiotic therapy. last one here on the secondary lesion types is Condylomata A. Lotta. Wow, they use begin as ordinary papules, which become flattened masqueraded and covered with a thick tenacious mucoid exudate like annular syphilis. They appear in two forms. One is a flat moist papule varying in size but accelerated in the center and the elevated off or cauliflower type is large not accelerated and grayish in appearance and has a vile odor. Most frequently found around the rectum scrotum Volvo as well as in the groin verruca vulgaris is the number one differential on that one page lymphogranuloma in Quesnel a granuloma. So as you can see syphilis has many presentations and a lot of them time just forgot. Next one up is pustular. This typical pustule is indolent originating as a vesicle initially. The lesion resembles a papule covered with scales then becomes flashing ruptures. If a scab forms beneath, it is a punched out ulcer surrounded by a slight inflammatory Arcola, usually with a live it or bluish tinge these contain very little puss and tend to group in to gyrate configurations. If no scab forms, the encrusted lesion simply appear as punched out ulcerations wage, that could be wrong about that. But that sounds like something you'd see a lot of in in in trip a name of infections may appear on any part of the body predilection for the faith-based. Especially the nose the flanks that dies poems the hands the soles of the feet differential on that is variola. pyoderma Mia acne And some other things you guys really got to check this study out of my post a link in the description below. Next one up is groupie all Ruby owl rubiel really large bus rules which have piled up crusts. These are typically and encrusted impetiginous eruption without an inflammatory wage areola show up anywhere. Of course that variola is the top differential. I'm not to take a look at that. I'm not sure if they're talking about the mycoplasma off. Genitalia, which was in the news recently micro plasma genitalia, but it sounds a lot like it off. Okay, just two more on these premises form. Friend is a form. This one is particularly compelling listen to this a hypertrophic type of popular lesion characterized by raspberry gross of various sizes shapes and choices. These lesions are moist violaceous and softly varikose with a high cirrus content and an offensive odor. Raspberry like growth of various shapes and sizes may appear on any part of the body predilection for the face and scalp especially the mouth of the nose also found in Psalm axilla or the Animal Jungle regions fungating condylomas is that they only differential on those raspberry groups that makes me wonder if maybe those down also not be associated with mold, you know a multi environment which could facilitate such a fungus. Last one here is Pigman Terry these lesions very concise and are not raised above the skin surface. They maybe hypopigmented depigmented or hyperpigmented. They can show up anywhere on the body, but they've got a predilection for the arms and trunk latch. Vitiligo is the top differential on that dermatitis medicamentosa tinea versicolor etcetera etcetera etcetera. So a lot of different types of strange odd, looking sores that a long time ago science recognized as associated with secondary syphilis. And so I think having that information inside the recent Morgellons study is going to help a lot of people because if they go in and they've got these strange sores, but when the doctor looks at the source with the page fifty tons microscope and realizes they don't have the fiber so you can go. Okay great news. You don't have more jelen's but you do have something and and we can we can definitely look at appropriately treating it. I think most people would be cured if they got the intramuscular bicycling shots three weeks off but I can't say for sure because there's definitely no way for us to measure biofilm inside the body. We have no way to detect these persistent colonies, which are constructed to get paid antibiotic interjection. Wanted to talk about a couple things and they'll round it out. The last two tables in this paper. First. One is Table Three clinical criteria for recognition of secondary syphilis. So if you pretend it's nineteen twenty-six and you go into the doctor's office. This is the kind of a vice they want you doctor to understand. Generalized eruptions, especially if envolent associated with generalized epidemic lymphadenopathy and otherwise big signs of disease directions that are Universal with the exception of macular rashes and symmetrically distributed almost always involving the face and forehead individual lesions tend to be underrated the color may vary considerably most often presenting as subdued red rather than a bright red lesion macular eruptions highly associated with papules on the genitalia or within the oral cavity popular lesions on the palms of the hands of the soles of the feet and in the absence of dermatitis Elsewhere on the body and involvement of Virginian Aaliyah generalized macular or popular elysians that persist for more than one week and are associated with a sore throat generalized pustular follicular lesions in the dog. Sense of oral and genitalia involvement the secular lesions which all the one common are not rare and darker-skinned subjects secondary syphilitic lesions wage, which tend to disappear without leaving permanent scars depigment Terry changes, although infrequent tend to be permanent. Whereas hyperpigment it changes are not a generalized limb by limb fan didn't apathy generalized lymphadenopathy uniformly associated with secondary syphilis. And the last one off the last one guy's is clinical manifestations of secondary syphilis, and I want to thank you all for taking time to to listen to our podcast here and if this is help or if you have any questions, feel free to reach out anchor. FM and there's a link right there where you can leave me an audio message and tell me your thoughts. Clinical manifestations of secondary syphilis include brush condyloma Laden in enter Genesis areas entered entered a Genesis areas lymphadenopathy hepatitis systemic fever malaise and weight loss neurologic headache meningitis meningitis cranial nerve disorders optic neuritis deafness otitis cerebrovascular accident. periostitis UVA Titus uveitis arthritis glamorous nareth fattest glommer alone left Fortis arthritis. Alopecia early syphilis is seen is in HIV patients is specifically not included and that's it's a 96 study so they didn't even know about HIV back then. What do you guys think? I would definitely like to hear back from you in regards to the descriptions that would gave about these lesions. I find it's interesting that they appeared to be some logical and presentation. Whereas you'll have one lesion on one arm and then on the other arm and just about the same location. You'll have an almost identical lesion. I think the raspberry gross are particularly compelling and I think those need to be paid attention to and I believe I'm not mistaken. They did describe lesion where when you removed the scab. There's a crack in the center poking out and it may have something to do with something. But what do you guys think? This has been a lot of fun? And I hope you guys definitely have a great Tuesday.

syphilis papule morgellons psoriasis syphilis Pigman Terry lymphadenopathy borrelia Jeremy Murphy Apple treponem Ezekiel HIV pyoderma condyloma Quesnel Volvo Corian optic neuritis Penicillin
Syphilis, The Greatest Immitator

Morgellons Discussion

06:01 min | 2 months ago

Syphilis, The Greatest Immitator

"Hey, what's up more keys and more guts. It's your boy Jeremy. And today we're going to talk about chronic syphilis. It's saw a study that came out. A couple of years ago, but I didn't pay it any attention because I was wrapped up in the Lyme disease and everybody was talking about what I should be study it was and so I just never looked at it hm V, but I took another look at it today and it says right there that if syphilis is allowed to run rampant Beyond appropriate treatment, then it can become a chronic Affliction. This is it right there in the paper so I can understand why people in the lime disease Community were pretty upset at the notion of the potential that syphilis can be chronic and let me just say this, okay. Syphilis ain't no joke. Okay. And by the way, I don't have any evidence that I have at when I say I may have been exposed to it off. You know, it's possible that my dad had it. Maybe I was born with it. I just don't know have a lot of reasons to believe that or think that rather cuz I try to think more than believe. But you don't often think about Lyme disease riding your face off, right, but when you think about syphilis, that's kind of the first thing that comes to mind isn't it off? So it seems to me I don't know. If the numbers are telling us that there are four times as many syphilis patients out there than line patients. Okay, and it's definitely not a race, but I think there's a lot more attention should be given towards education because I had no idea. I had no idea that that syphilis could still be a problem. and I didn't realize that the test for syphilis were also kind of Insensitive especially in regards to the initial infection stage and the late tertiary stage is when the syphilis testing serologic testing of course will produce a most likely a false negative. Meaning the test says it doesn't look like your immune response just showing that you have an active infection, but they're not going in and doing the biopsy and then culturing that bacteria which we can do now, by the way, we do have a culture month for syphilis. And that's as far as I understand is cool with the CDC. So I think we had to put that in the doctor's office and you know, since you can get syphilis by the oral sex, even I think it's important to do to test people for it, especially since you know, like I was talking about yesterday the Chinese man who in fact His entire family with by letting his kid his sons in middle age son uses razor blade. It's so easy to get and that Grandpa the initial primary guy. Yeah, he he was going off to brothels by the way, but he was a sympathetic where his wife Grandma had all sorts of skin issues. She had the plaque she had sores. She had stuff on her trunk. I mean she had syphilis obviously off Grandpa was asymptomatic. They they couldn't even tell until the rest of the family started going downhill and if they can do that with just the razor blade man. That's a pretty easy to catch disease and I think it deserves a lot more attention than it's getting and what I'm afraid of what I'm concerned about cuz I'm not really afraid about it. I'm just concerned that a lot of people are going to have syphilis but think that it's lime disease because of all these industries that are built up around Lyme disease. Yeah Lyme disease is a serious issue and it's not taken seriously enough, but it's not the answer when the doctor can't figure out your problems automatically. It should not Ematic Lee go back to life should automatically go back to the great imitator syphilis Cassopolis more often than a mimic slime on serologic screens. So and that may be enough for a doctor to diagnose lyme disease. You know, oh you're you're CDC two tiered standard test came back positive. You've got Lyme disease, but that same result could potentially elicit Joseph Ellis infection. I think more easily though. It can elicit a Epstein-Barr Virus Infection. I'm not sure how that works. And I would like to take a little bit more time to research that wage act at some point or the other but I do think that there's way too much focus on Lyme disease, especially trying to make it out to be some kind of a superbug. You know, it does do some nasty things, but it won't rot your face off syphilis will rot your face off. That's right. All right guys just going to be a sword episode cuz I got to do the cat sitting but we'll catch up with you after a while be safe careful out there.

syphilis Lyme disease lime disease Community CDC Grandma Epstein-Barr Virus Infection Jeremy Affliction Joseph Ellis Ematic Lee asymptomatic
Tuskegee Syphilis Study Part 2: The Truth

You're Wrong About...

1:10:35 hr | 2 months ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study Part 2: The Truth

"You used to be able to undertake terrible ideas and Madison and less so now, and so that's why we have to keep this terrible idea going. Welcome to you're wrong about where having the best intentions probably won't help you. ooh, that's pretty good other. We also have be eugenic intentions. Well. Okay. Welcome to you're wrong about where we cannot wake up from the nightmare of history so we can stop hitting the snooze. Button. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. That's too too much verbiage if we continue. I Michael Hawks I'm a reporter for the Huffington Post. I'm Sarah. Marshall I'm were handbook about the satanic panic, and if you want to support the show and here bonus episodes, you can support us on patriarch dot com slash. You're wrong about and we're on PAL and we sell t shirts and other stuff, and you can also not do any of that in just keep listening. Listening is the most support you could give us. So you for being here and today we are talking about the Tuskegee syphilis study again, part to it was a huge bummer last time it's going to be roughly similar amount of bummer this time Oh boy do you WanNa? Let us know where did where did we leave off? Can you even remember a whole week has gone by? We're enjoying the fact that we're actually recording these on consecutive days. Yes. So Little movie magic happening here. But reach back into your memory for twenty one hours ago when we recorded. Okay. So in the beginning, there was a US government study that was like we think that we're going to find high incidence of latent syphilis among black men in Macon, county Alabama, and so we will do this fake campaign. We will test function people we will not tell them what they're testing them for. We're going to ask people that come in if they. have bad blood. Yes and and so they did treat them and actually for a brief time and then ran out of funding to do the actual treatment and started off being like well, we have this population we know they have syphilis. We still haven't told them what if we just keep monitoring them because we have this theory being genesis and everything that syphilis works differently on black people and on white people based on our ideas that white people have more advanced brains. And so they were like, well, we already have the sample. So like why don't we just see? Four, what six months where just gonNA see for six months we lost funding any. We're just going to study what the civilised looks like basically. Yeah. We are now in the phase of the study where it's essentially just keeping track of these dudes keeping their addresses because we're only interested in checking out their tissues after they die. This is a weird study because Blake, it seems like a study that you could also advance your career by being part of without really doing hardly any work. It's Your like son who don't really like let them do this study have anything to screw up there. Yes. I'm glad that we're finding other reasons to dislike the people at the center of the scheme because it's not only genesis. They're also like kind of lazy and kind of bad researchers as we will get into in this episode, it's strange to me to contemplate lake how little effort went into this like how yet in set up a population to go through torture and you don't even have to do very much. Yes. So that's basically the phase that we're in. But for this episode, we're going to start out by fast forwarding to. The early two thousands. Okay. Do you remember I mentioned last episode a woman named Susan River be who's written two books on the skis study? Yes. So after her first book comes out, she is driving to visit friends in West Virginia. She's staying with a friend in Pittsburgh and her friend mentions Oh, you know since you're staying here for a couple of days, you might actually WanNa check out the archives at the University of Pittsburgh because there's this researcher named John C Cutler who was like a famous venereal disease researcher and he has archives at the University of Pittsburgh. Pennsylvania. Good stuff in Pittsburgh. I know that a lot of good stuff. So Susan. Shirt, whatever I'll check it out. So she goes to the archives. She starts going through this guy's documents and as soon as she starts going through it. Is that John C? Cutler was involved in a study in the nineteen forties in Guatemala. In which Guatemalan prisoners were deliberately infected with syphilis. God this is from the eventual New York Times article that comes out about this because this becomes like a major diplomatic incident from nine hundred, forty, six to nineteen forty, eight American public health doctors deliberately infected nearly seven hundred Guatemalan prison inmates, mental patients, and soldiers with the Niro Diseases in what was meant as an effort to test the effectiveness of penicillin American tax dollars through the National Institutes of health even paid for syphilis infected prostitutes to sleep. In the prostitutes did not succeed in infecting them in some prisoners, had the bacteria poured onto scrapes made on their penises, faces or arms in some cases, the bacteria was injected by spinal puncture. What Susan says is it doesn't appear there was any effort really to cover this up. Yeah. Like in John C Cutler's papers. He writes to the surgeon general to inform him of his results and the surgeon like good. How's the weather down there by me a trinket? Yes I feel like some of the worst things of the US government has ever been responsible for things that at the time they're like I, don't know what everyone's problem is but like we have to be doing this if we don't. Experiment on Guatemalan prisoners by basically torturing them than like what kind of a world billion suzy want to grow up in and it's like I think it would be the same. Gets really hung up on mid sanctuary. American stuff lately my. That's because you've been reading about housework. Yes and appliances. I also love that in the New York Times article that comes out about this, they have at the beginning of one of the paragraphs. In a twist to the revelation John, Cutler, would later have an important role in the skis study. A twist shed I've ever heard it's like you had gross dude who was deliberately infecting people with syphilis also had a hand in the other gross syphilis study going on at the time this is like the teeth recanting where they pan over to the villain who seems to have been killed in the explosion and like anti opens his eyes. And this is and then trying to see cutler opens his I. Think I'm going to go to Alabama. Susan River be who found out all of this and has done more work on it since this is what she says. Cutler and his colleagues thought they were doing really good science against a really dreadful disease I think it's incredibly dangerous to see cutler as a monster and not understand the broader institutional support for what he's doing when I talked to Susan about this she said that one of the things that comes out in Cutler's letters is that he says, we are at war with this disease. This was something that within the Public Health Service was very prevalent way of talking about people who work there that a lot of the people at the Public Health Service like these were frontline people like they would go out and they would talk to people with infectious diseases. A lot of them got the diseases that they were studying because not much was known about them at the time. What Susan said is that when? You frame yourself as a soldier and when you frame yourself as a general a war, you start to think maybe it's okay to make some sacrifices. Yes. Because you have to think of people as infantry don't you that's worth generals do yeah I find it very interesting that we consistently use the language of war to talk about disease disease has been with US longer it's strange isn't it? It seems a little hubristic to me. It's also this idea that war should be all encompassing and that sacrifices made in war are always justified which is also yeah. Manmade thing. Yeah. There's I mean another thing in war is the sort of replace ability of the people in it. Yeah. One of the things that I think is actually really important for understanding the to ski study and Wyatt it went on. So long why people didn't raise concerns is because so many people were swapping in and out of it all the time. Right. So Cutler joins in nineteen fifty, he leaves nine, hundred, Fifty, eight within I think it's like three years of the study beginning both of the main. Study Clark von Der had left Von der gets a promotion Clark retires. He's in his sixties when designing to ski study whenever you save on Dilara Picture George Costanza. Jerry Seinfeld's, apartment? Pants down shining fan delays. I. Think it's appropriate. To Lake here this man's name without picturing Jason Alexander with his pants down. And you want to be. Heck salesman but another aspect of this that I think is actually really important that the doctors you know as people are swapping in and out of this project all the time they start to refer to the subject of the study as volunteers It's not clear if people like new all of the calculations that went into the study or the ways they change or even that it had started out trying to give people treatment if they weren't there when it started out if they weren't there in the planning of it, then they didn't know his inevitably you don't understand. What the formation of an idea or a movement or an organization is like if you're not there inside of it, 'cause projects start mythology themselves almost as soon as this and also I mean we have all been in jobs were you just sort of inherit other people's? And this is again not to defend it but I do think that it's important for why this went on so long and there were no high level meetings of like we be doing this. Should we continue this? This is also to attempt to talk and a hell away about why these things happen. Yeah, and therefore how to stop them which I would say you know again. My own disease comparison there, and to say that this is a bad idea immunology. I mean, it's sort of a white collar crime story too because the whole thing is bureaucratized right. So I wanna read an excerpt which is extremely dark I think one of the most insightful things I've ever read this is from a book called the kindly ones by Jonathan l'hotel. It's a fictional account by a French doctor who collaborates with the Nazis. Considered the program for the destruction of severely handicapped and mentally ill Germans set of two years before the final solution here, the patients selected within the framework of a legal process were welcomed in a building by professional nurses who registered them undress them. Doctors examined them and lead them into a sealed room but worker administered the gas a policeman wrote up the death certificate questioned after the war. Each of these people said, what me guilty the nurse didn't kill anyone she only undress and calm the patients ordinary tasks in her profession. The doctor didn't kill anyone either he merely confirmed a diagnosis according to the criteria established by higher authorities the worker who opened the gas spigot the man closest to the actual act of murder in both time and space was fulfilling a technical function under the supervision. Of, his superiors doctors, the policeman was following procedure, which is to record each death and certified that it's taken place without any violation of the laws in force. So who is guilty once again, let us be clear I'm not trying to say that I'm not guilty. I'm guilty. You're not fine but you should be able to admit to yourselves did you might also have done what I did with less zeal perhaps but perhaps also with less despair and this is what Susan ever told me as well. Was it. Any of US can become John Cutler? Yeah I agree with that based on my understanding of humanity and how. Frail. My own inner goodness. Yesterday feels like an every example. If you look at someone doing the unthinkable, you're like, how did this happen? Were they something other than human and it's like no it was just a combination of circumstances they were incentivized to do the wrong things and they were discouraged from doing the right things and then yeah and then before you know it, you have your pants around your ankles on the floor of your friends apartment shouting counting delay. Right because it's like that's Example which just keep talking about Seinfeld for the next two hours. Let's stick with for as long as we can. Go back to the. Okay. You see what I'm doing. Yes. Okay. So next to things that happened in this study. So, in nineteen forty one world. War Two starts, they start drafting people but the problem is that when you get drafted into World War Two, guess what they test you for syphilis yes and they tell you that you have syphilis. Oh No. So the staff of the study have to prevent these men from being drafted. So they submit a list of two hundred and fifty six names to the local draft board and they say under no circumstances should you call these people up and they don't, but then they also avoid service. So that's I mean in some ways. That's probably good, right? Yeah that's interesting. That's very interesting. However, they also distribute the list to local doctors. So that any doctor in the county or surrounding county shouldn't diagnose them with syphilis. Wow. The second thing that happens during this period in the nineteen forties is penicillin. Yeah, tell me about tell me the story of Penicillin Mike that would be even more heartening than Seinfeld. Well you mentioned yesterday slash last week that you know about the origin of penicillin. Well, I know the story that Fleming left has window open, which is interesting because I feel like it's one of those lake science history minutes that seems like too good to be true but I think it really is right like Fleming. Andrew Fleming. Yes. Left a window open and like a petri dish out and like left his office over the weekend or something like that and came back like some mold had grown basically and he was like that looks interesting. Yes, and then it was penicillin like I know it was more complicated than that. Basically true. And then he was like it's a good thing. I'm messy mom. I mean that's basically true. He actually was growing mole. He was drawing staphylococcus, which is what causes staph infections suit claimed. He didn't actually leave the window open, but he left the petri dishes out. He didn't put them in a warming incubator, which is what they usually did. Okay and then he went on vacation for two weeks and then when he came back, there were all of these petri dishes with all of this staphylococcus grown in it. But then he noticed that in one of the Petri dishes, there was like a weird little area where there was no staff growing and there was a weird yellow substance and around the yellow substance, there was normal. What happened is he didn't the window open, but the office was much colder than normal. It was during the cold snap in London and because they weren't in the warming incubator that gave the staff like sped up growing times some little rare little weird mold from the air. To land in the Petri dish and the cold weather allowed the penicillin mold to grow faster than the staff, and then it beat back the staff. That's so cool. It's so cool and so it is one of those like Eureka stories that you don't get in science and usually you look into them and you're like, Oh, no. Yeah that's actually like a total urban legend care if there's a little window involved bracket stonewall. Parched Pete's the same. But then of course, there's been like this Eureka moment and as we often do we then fast forward to like and then everybody got penicillin shots, right? Yeah. He discovered the little yellow substance in one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty eight, and we didn't get mass production of penicillin till nineteen. Well, yeah. This is where the actual science happens right where he's like this yellow stuff. Can I make it happen again right and he's like well, do anything in humans probably not right. And I guess he's like wasn't that good at sort of synthesizing or producing it or whatever, and it became a thing that like everyone he met at dinner parties he'd be like, here's yellow substance. Why don't you try making like he would just give any other. Proprietary and secretive trying to do. Here Penicillin So basically in nineteen, twenty eight, he discovers that, and then like science science science by the early nineteen forties, they have figured out how math produce there's various stages go in it's really difficult to produce it I get better at it at Cetera but they're mass producing it. So it essentially comes onto the market in one, thousand, nine, forty two. So this is a decade after the beginning of the Tuskegee syphilis study what a what a weird year so much happening in nineteen, forty, two, I know one of the other things happening that year is, of course, the war. So for the first couple years of penicillins existence, it is really not available to population because. They are giving it to all the soldiers because these dudes all have fucking syphilis and they need to be, they don't want it to fall into the hands of the Germans our they thinking that like the access might be taken down by its inferior resistance to sell us we I mean when you think about it, penicillin is like the opposite of a biological weapon because literally they shot your but and then if you have syphilis, your syphilis goes away like a fucking miracle, right? Like you don't want your enemy to have a cure for this until nineteen forty-five, it's really not something that like members of the population are getting vendors saying I didn't know the me neither until this morning. So it's really only in like nineteen forty-five that this starts to become available to the population at large and starts being given out in large doses. So there's actually this is fucked up. There's actually a project in the late nineteen forties in Macon. County Alabama where they are driving around with like a mobile health unit and giving out penicillin shots to random ask people but they make sure that it doesn't go anywhere near to these men who are in ski study who they have like do not serve this man penicillin list. It's gross dude I know it's like these men are being held in this bobble as science marches forward totally at like they literally are yes. Yeah and so in nineteen, forty, five, one, hundred and fourteen men with syphilis are in this study and are not given penninsula. As I mentioned last episode there is later on this big debate in medical journals of was it. Oh, Kay to not give them pencil. How many hundreds of people that they kill a really who can say? Split hairs until you die. So the way that they justify not giving these men penicillin is that there was actually some debate about the effectiveness of penicillin on latent syphilis at the time the very beginning I'm sure. Yeah. There was some debate actually on the effectiveness of penicillin generally because there have been a couple of studies done on people with syphilis where they had been. Given Penicillin but they're syphilis didn't go away and it's because they weren't given enough. So there's a couple of years in the medical literature of sort of figuring out like what is the right dosage? Ten percent of the population is allergic to it. There's this side effect of it that some people get a reaction radio-hertz Heimer reaction which I mispronouncing I do not care where. Gives you forever for a week and there's a couple cases of this, her SAIMA reaction being fatal. So there is actually like debate in medicine of like, should we do this or should we not do this? So yeah, it is something that you would understand wanting to exercise caution with the end the first few years by again this experiment we know when on until nineteen seventy two yes and again, this is pointless but I want to debunk these things. Yeah. I. There's plenty of treatments for various diseases that might not work maybe have side effects. It's a little bit iffy whether you're going to get any benefit from them. But what we typically do in these situations is we just let the patient decide. There's no reason you couldn't have just told these guys look you have syphilis. You've had it for decades. We don't know of penicillin is going to work. There's a chance you're gonna get this weird reaction. Do you want the shot or not? That's the kind of thing that we do all the time in medicine nobody really considered this as an option at the time just like coming clean with the dudes the points to make the decision. Yeah. So in the sort of background memos meetings, whatever there was never like a big meeting of guys, there's now this treatment available syphilis. Let's reevaluate this that. Never happened, they just didn't consider the possibility of giving them penicillin. So all of this stuff about like Oh, we don't know if it works and the her timer reaction. That's all Monday morning quarterback. That's not a discussion that people were having at the time we even have this is fucked up a letter from von. Der. WHO's one of the architects of the project, but is now the assistant surgeon general? He's writing a breezy message like just checking in to one of the researchers who still on the study and he says I hope the availability of antibiotics has an interfere too much with the project. So. It's fully just like a power things. Still hasn't thrown. You guys off course like that's the extent to which they even consider this. What's also interesting about the lack of any moment of decision or like a damning internal memo in the story is that they didn't need to be like everyone operated on the unspoken assumption that like of course, they're not going to attempt treatment or offered treatment tell these patients what's going on which is counter to all medical ethics right there a hippocratic oath like I know the Dr, don't take it but they talk about it. There's now penicillin is available. There's treatment available for syphilis. What the researchers on the study start to talk about is we are never going to have an opportunity like this again. Oh, my God we can never start this study now. So it's up to us. It's a moral obligation to understand as much as we can about this disease because we've already been tracking these guys for fifteen years at this point. So we. Have to continue. But why is it so valuable to study what latent syphilis looks like once why I. Mean Part of it is the psychology of these guys. One thing Susan River be actually told me was she was struck by one of the quotes from one of the architects much later on says if we treat the men now syphilis will go away with all of its secrets withheld from us. Okay by CEPHAS. We can also see where children look like if they got untreated leukemia but like why right I mean what she said is if tomorrow a cure for AIDS comes out right you a shot AIDS goes away AIDS is done there would potentially be a sense of sadness among AIDS researchers of like all of my work is now worth nothing all of my studies that are ongoing they're all over. You can be interviewed by historians all day long and they can take you out to lunches I know yes, I got that but it's like you just take an evening you drink some wine you're like, oh well, I have to find career and literally thousands of people get you live that wouldn't have taken. It seems like you should be weighing that too. So John Cutler the guy who did the Guatemala experiments he's interviewed for nineteen ninety-three documentary where of course, they ask him why the Hell didn't you give these guys penicillin once it became available and he says, it was important that they were untreated and it would be undesirable to go ahead and use large amounts of penicillin because you'd interfere with the study. So even in the studies they're framing this as like this is an unprecedented opportunity you know. I. Could say unprecedented opportunity in front of all sorts of things. Say those words. Lake. This pandemic is an unprecedented opportunity for me to finally watch Gilmore Girls. Does that mean it's worth it happening. I mean in that case yet. But right it's like it's you're saying like this is our only chance to do this thing and it's like, why is that the most salient aspect of it but it's actually I mean I think his defensive is really interesting because what you do find as more information comes out about the study is that the immorality of the study becomes a reason to keep doing the study. It's like Oh. We could. We could never start the study now. Right we design. Where we weren't treating people and it's like, yes. That's should be a sign then you shouldn't be doing the study. I think you should. You should be like this time traveller who shows up and like. He conversations throughout history when people say things like this Nico Yes. Playing, they can't do hear what you're saying. I'm just going to write this note card and show it to you. Do you want to be? Another I think like more existential problem with this argument that the science of the study is so good that we must continue with the study is that the science of the study is not good. I was talking. About this and what she said, and you can hear like the clap emojis between her words she basically said I cannot stress enough how little this study contributed to the scientific understanding of syphilis. We. Learned nothing from this study partly because first of all the records they kept were terrible. They didn't keep track of anything because they're Lazy sons-in-law. Yes. We to this day. Do Not Know How many people were in the study Oh my God come on and they're like we can't stop now it's her science we have. The results of this some well, we don't know exactly how many subjects that's some number though and it's very important by nineteen, forty, eight as early as nineteen, forty eight they had already lost a quarter of the men with syphilis had been lost. So the lost contact with those people and then some of them they replaced by recruiting more men but it's not clear like when they did that or how many people they did that with. So I didn't even have. Records of like who was joining the study and why a terrible and they would also disqualify some of some men that would show up with latent syphilis wouldn't be included in the study which is fine. But they never said why we don't actually know if this was a remotely random sample and it's not a large group of people to it's only a few hundred people in total. Yeah. Exactly. It's four hundred people with syphilis in two hundred people without syphilis. Because we don't know specifically again, this goes back to what lily head descendant of one of the subjects in the study what she was saying that these men are not stupid. So there's quite a bit of evidence that the men were getting wise to what was going on and were deliberately she t.f owing from this study. So this is from Harriet. Washington's book, medical? Apartheid nurse rivers certainly knew the men were not as unquestioning. As the Public Health Service assume over the years she saw considerable resistance to the quote unquote medical care of the doctors from disappearing when she came to call and refusing procedures speaking back to the physicians about what they were doing and the pain they were causing. One man has medical file noted used to hide in cornfields to avoid exam. Another brought his lawyer with him in nineteen seventy one and refused to see the government doctors. and. It seems like they weren't trying that hard to keep track of the people who slipped out of their grasp. They would just add more people like Willy Nilly. Yeah, it's very it's of course it's awful at every level like why would this be functioning ethically on on even a tiny scale not yeah there's also the entire purpose of the study right is defined at the effect. The syphilis has on the body when you do not receive treatment right a huge percentage of the participants in the study got treatment of various kinds as early as nineteen, fifty to thirty percent of the subjects had gotten some level of penicillin Oh. Wow thirty percent. Yes. Because doctors were giving out penicillin for all kinds of shit like there was a time when it was like penicillins a miracle cure look at you with A. Headache Penicillin sprained ankle penicillin like they just give you penicillin for kinds of Shit. So it's actually possible. These men were going to the doctor with completely random have pneumonia I have the flu whatever and their doctor would give them some dosage of penicillin. It might not have been enough to actually cure the syphilis, but they were getting some and Susan reveries in her articles that it's not a study of untreated syphilis study of undertreatment treating syphilis but they're not actually tracking how much treatment these men have gotten, what dosage of penicillin they've they've had. So all of their findings are completely invalid because they don't know what population they're actually looking at. Yeah. So by the end of the study, some estimates put it as high as ninety six percent of the participants got some form of treatment. So everyone's bending over backwards to preserve the integrity of a study that had no anti had no integrity beginning. Yes. So it's very odd to contrast this idea of author studies. So important, we must keep doing we can't give them penicillin like they're already getting penicillin because you're all so lazy. Yes. I also you know that I'm like a project. Management Queen. I love like I want everything to be in order I want everything to be like. Really. Well, and I kept noting all of the various sources that I read all of the places where they talk about the trash project management of this study x rays go missing. There's like clinical data that doesn't get their medical histories don't get taken in any kind of consistent way they start swapping people between the syphilis group and the Control Group. That's just by random chance. You know they're falling two hundred dudes that don't have syphilis to compare them against the to that do have syphilis. But by coincidence, some of the dudes in the control group get syphilis because the. Relatively, high and making county some of them do actually test positive for syphilis. But so instead of just like removing them from the study or noting that down, they'll just switch them into the syphilis group, which is a complete violation of any like medical methodology anything and the entire purpose of the study is to study latent syphilis right syphilis that you had released five years when these men are coming in with syphilis that they've had for like a year or two, it's no longer studying latent syphilis anymore. So like, yeah, what. All kinds of civilised. Reminds me of like a school project cited and tenth grade I was like and a little of this and a little of yeah and I guess I'm happy to get a B. and again, the entire point of the study is to get autopsies. So you can look at people's tissues under a microscope and find out how syphilis affected their bones and their brains and their hearts and their livers and stuff only thirty six percent of the men were autopsied. Yeah it's a bunch of scientists working to further this experiment that they are like visibly half assing doing a terrible job at like the air against a meeting to continue to derail and destroy human lives for something that you're not even working that hard on. It makes it so much worse. I mean they never should have done this in the first place. Obviously but the second that penicillin came onto the market they should've realized that there's no way that we're going to keep these guys from getting treatment. The study mover the second penicillin became available. So it's also arrogance totally. Yeah. The failure of the study is baked into the very idea of it in that you cannot study. Disease at a time when he treatment for that disease exists, you can't well on its prioritizing the disease over the human. Yes. Exactly. Another aspect of this that becomes a defense of the project after it becomes public is that there was really no effort to keep this secret So over the course of the Ski Syphilis Study, there were thirteen papers published in various medical journals. So the title of many of the studies was untreated syphilis. In the Mail Negro, it's there in the title and this is the same title. Penicillin bailable? There's a really interesting analysis of these thirteen papers that finds that they were actually doing quite a bit of twisting of language. Studies of untreated syphilis they talk about the people in the study as volunteers. So it was not clear from the articles at the men were being lied to. Why what Susan River be told me she said essentially, the main findings of these studies are just that men with syphilis don't live as long as men without syphilis. So their life expectancy is twenty percent order once again. Yes. What Susan ever said to was like a long pause and then groundbreaking. Again, it's like we're making were willing to sacrifice these people for the good of the science, and then you read the science and it's like, yes, if this is fucking bad, that's why we've been trying to cure it for four hundred years man if I take two groups of people in one group of people are lit on fire and then I'm like the people with. Massive. Burns all over their bodies had a lower quality of life and didn't live as long like that feels the same to me. Yes and it's not as if anyone had an untested hypothesis going in that like maybe syphilis can protect the body against secondary infections like no one had. There was no potential positive outcome that anyone was envisioning exactly. Yeah. That's what I want. To read an excerpt from this fascinating article that looks at all thirteen of the studies and analyzes the kinds of that they use it's called the rhetoric of Dehumanisation by Martha. Solomon. It's extremely good. She's talking about how the quote unquote importance of the study overwhelmed any human concerns and that's really the central of the late stages of this study. So she says insistence on. Objectivity in detachment is a great asset in pursuit of knowledge but the stance only reflects one aspect of a broad spectrum of human concerns as the two skis that he shows this perspective and the language which conveys it can mislead even well intentioned people if allegiance to objectivity in detachment blinds us to other values, it produces neither humane behavior nor sound science and it's like. There's more to life there's more government there's more to health than just these dry recitations of men with syphilis had more co morbidity than men without like that's not the only concern of a society. Yeah. But you can of setup this voice of God scientific writing. Marytr that is like obviously, we all know that these are the most important things in the world starting from that we will just continue forward dryly killing people right and you can describe a study that is vain with human choices as some sort of naturally occurring event right the men were not given treatments bright. You don't have to acknowledge the fact that you have stood by and watched them get these commodities. So before we get to the downfall, I just want to talk about the actual toll of the study. So by seventy two when it all comes crashing down of the Men who were originally enrolled in this study three, hundred, Fifty, seven of them died. One hundred and fifty four of those died of heart disease. So a little less than half died of heart disease, but it's not clear how much the syphilis contributed to the heart disease as for the men who died directly as a result of untreated syphilis it is somewhere between twenty eight and one hundred seven, which is a like appallingly large range. But those are sort of the low estimate in the high estimate somewhere between twenty, eight, one, hundred, seven. What do you think I? Think that's a lot of people. The. Low estimate is a lot of people. The high estimate is a lot of people the inability to figure out. The the very thing that they're study was allegedly studying, and so I guess like when it comes down to is the at the lowest eight people died of syphilis who didn't have to, and that's what that study accomplish and. Six hundred something people were fucking lied to and given aspirin and told that it was a treatment for syphilis and they were giving final taps. Yeah. Like it's not just the death I mean the entire study is so rotted through. Immorality and things that violated even the ethical rules of the time. The entire really everybody who was in any way associated with the study is a victim of it basically. But so now we are going to get to the whistle blowers There are three there are two don't work, and then there's one that does work. The first whistle blower is a doctor in Detroit who reads one of these reports in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, four and writes a letter to the public health. Service protesting he appears to be the only person who ever did this his name is Irwin Schatz he is totally randomly he's the father of Hawaii Senator Brian Schatz and so he reads. In nineteen, sixty four, he can kind of read between the lines like this seems weird to me that syphilis is treatable. We've had penicillin for twenty years and you're publishing. Untreated syphilis rightly, just on a fundamental level like. Weird, and so he writes a three sentence letter to the public. Health Service that says I am utterly astounded by the fact that physicians allow patients with potentially fatal disease to remain untreated. When effective therapy is available I assume you feel that the information extracted from observation of this untreated group is worth their sacrifice. If this is the case, then I suggest the public health, service and those physicians associated with it need to reevaluate their moral judgments in this regard. We have since found out from a freedom of Information Act request that nobody ever writes back to him. Basically, there's some like internal memos that go around the public health service where the person in charge of the study says, this is the first letter of this type that we've ever received. I, don't plan to answer it and so that kind of fizzles out. There's also in nineteen, sixty nine. There is a black whistle blower within the public health service named Bill Jenkins. He's a cool dude. He's a statistician and he did a bunch of protests in college with the student nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and so the minute he gets hired by it's now the CDC. The Public Health Service has now been enveloped into the CDC so he gets hired by the CDC. Addition, he immediately sets up a newsletter of out getting rid of racial discrimination within the entire Department of Health. So in the spring of Nineteen sixty-nine, he hears from a doctor that the CDC is doing this study of untreated syphilis. He's like I work at the CDC and this is the CDC project and so he goes to the head of the statistics department so his boss and he's like. This kind of seems fucked up that there's all these men with syphilis that were not treating, and so his boss, her name is Geraldine a gleason she worked on the Tuskegee study, and so she basically gives him this lecture of like you don't get it. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Don't even worry about it, and so he can't really drop it. He keeps thinking about it and he gets a bunch of other. Black. Staffers at the Department of Health and all the other departments, the Department of Health to write an op Ed sort of like an open letter where he lays out the study's been going on it's in the medical journals. Our bosses don't agree with us, but we think that this should stop. We think it's really bad. He sends it to The Washington Post New York Times and he never here's back. Wow, and that's it. Vanessa Northington gamble the medical historian who I interviewed. She was actually a friend of his and she says that like he never got over it that when the study eventually comes out publicly, he actually left the CDC after this went back to school and got a degree in epidemiology, and then rejoined the CDC years later to work on AIDS which was at the time and always affecting black men more than white men and so what Vanessa said. Is that he always wished that he had written a fucking press release rather than op-ed. I think like that has to be part of the reason why this didn't go anywhere is you know Vanessa's theory is that they just didn't believe him because this sounds like such conspiracy theory I I don't know if like op-ed sections of newspapers are really set up to break news, and then the question is like what is like where it does as go? His letter just fell into this weird limited space where it sounds too outlandish to be true. But then it's also not a secret because it's been published in all these medical journals. So it just like it just feels like the kind of thing that they wouldn't have known what to do with, and so they just ignored it. Yeah and so many things like that. Where you know it's not particularly hidden. The nollie out there someone has tried to blow the whistle before and adjust. I find that very upsetting i. feel like for a long time. I kind of believe that like if something is coming justice was happening in the world than like when people found out about it, they would do something about you. Know like we know like everyone knows that. You, know the lack of knowledge isn't the problem is the ability for the people who have the resources to do something being able to comprehend something as a problem right? I just don't know that the media like not how to deal with stories this? No, they don't I mean I feel like something that I've experienced and trying to cover issues before is it's very hard to places story a lot of the time if you can't offer the publication and the reader, the idea of like a timely peg the which like they call them pegs which I find very funny because like fact should only be sexy word. So, are you ready to hear about these successful whistleblower whistleblower number three? Am I ever? Okay tell me. So it is nine hundred and sixty five. There's a twenty eight year old public health service staffer named Peter Buxton, who is a syphilis contact tracer in San Francisco he he's been all of his time trying to find people with syphilis and get people with syphilis into treatment. Everybody gets a Buckshot yes and so according to legend, he walks into the coffee room one day at the Public Health Service, and he over hears two people talking and one guy is telling other guy about how he had to chew out a doctor in Macon. County. Alabama for giving someone a penicillin Shah. He's like penicillin shot. And so Peter is like the fuck what am I busting my ass for if we're deliberately not giving people penicillin shots. So Peter Buxton is like Mr Penicillin yes he talks to the doctor. He's like hang on can use tell me what is this? I've never heard about those. The doctor tells them and also tells him like we're not keeping this A. Secret. Like you can look up the Journal of the American medical. Association, you'll find these articles and so Peter. Buxton starts reading at night finding all of these research papers finding internal documentation, various other like publicly available documents about this study, and he's just like in total shock and so he takes it to his bosses and his boss basically says well it. says. Right here in the medical literature people volunteered, you can see the word volunteer right there that can't possibly be a euphemism. Buxton is immediately skeptical of the idea that these people are volunteers and also can people volunteer to get treatment for a condition for which there is treatment right? He doesn't drop it. It becomes like a weird little project that he's. Working on, he writes to the head of the Venereal Disease Department being like this seems gross to me. I'm really concerned about this and he gets a letter back saying again, these men are volunteers and they can get treatment at any time. If anyone asked for treatment for the thing that we have explicitly shielded them from knowing that they have for decades. We will give them which I don't believe either exactly, and we don't know the extent to which test subjects have broke concerns. And so three years goes by Buxton eventually leaves he quits his job at the Public Health Service, he goes to law school. So in nineteen, Sixty, eight, this is six months after Martin Luther King has been assassinated. He writes again to the same guy, the head of the Venereal Disease Division and he makes a completely different argument this time instead of making a moral, we have a duty to treat these men argument. He makes a self preservation arguments. He says, the Group of participants is one hundred percent Negro. This in itself is political dynamite and subject to wild journalistic misinterpretation. Oh my goodness like these men are happen to be black and some people misconstrued that Nah. He also says, it also follows the thinking of Negro militants that Negroes have long been used for medical experiments and teaching cases in the emergency wards of country hospitals. So he's basically saying it's GonNa feed into the crazy conspiracy theories of these black militants. It's not clear if he's doing this like on purely rhetorical grounds like going to use the arguments that are the most likely to appeal to like old white establishment people don't give the black militants any ammunition man if He believes himself it's not clear. Yeah. So after this letter, the head of the Venereal Disease Division calls meeting and this is nine hundred and sixty eight the first time there's ever been a meeting of all of the people running the study to talk about. Should we continue right? Everyone agrees that it's a worthwhile study and obviously they're to continue it is why they ever stop. So the head of the Venereal Disease Division calls big meeting he invited the head of the CDC. What's very interesting to me actually is the the meeting it appears because everyone who's there is a doctor and is sort of a technical public healthy person. There's no one there that focuses on. Disparities in health or health among poor groups, there's really nobody that represents the kind of population that would be affected by this study. The entire meeting for hours just becomes a debate about well, would penicillin even really help them like, whoa there's only one way to find out fuck goes I know they're like, oh you know there's a study last year that was published in this journal wasn't there another publication from this other journal nobody brings up the option of just like well, why don't we come clean with these guys and just fucking let them decide like that does not. Come up as an option at all but basically, they have this meeting, they decide the patients. The study wouldn't really benefit from penicillin and they might get this side effect reaction from the penicillin whatever. So the head of the writes back to Peter Buxton and it's just like look we talked about it. Thank you for your concerns. We think it's important to continue and so another three years goes by and you don't much in the way that we have trafficking and Tonya Harding Peter. Buxton has the to ski study just a thing that he yells at people about in bars. and. Then finally, in Nineteen, seventy-two he is at a dinner party and he is seated to a friend of his named Edith Lederer who's an AP reporter. Apparently, he has ranted about the ski steady to her before. But like it didn't for whatever reason, it didn't really click. But for some reason, at this dinner party, as he tells the story, she's like there might be a story here and she asks him are their documents like, can you prove any of this and he's like hell? Yes. So she takes it to her boss. Her boss thinks that she's to junior to cover it. So he hands it off to a more senior reporter. Gene, Heller. End. On July twenty, sixth nineteen, seventy-two Jean. Heller writes an article that is officially for the AP, but it oftentimes gets credited to the new. York Times, because it appears on the front page of The New York Times that morning. Here I am I am going to send you it hang on our boy. Okay. Hillary. Yeah you WanNa read it until it gets boring. Syphilis victims in US study went untreated her forty years. and. In the Article Goes Washington July twenty fifth or forty years the United States Public Health Service has conducted a study in which human beings with syphilis who were induced to serve as guinea pigs have gone without medical treatment for the disease and a few have died of its late effects even though ineffective therapy was eventually discovered, the study was conducted to determine from autopsies what the disease does to the Human Body Officials the Health Service who initiated the experiment have long since retired hurt officials who say they have serious doubts about the morality of the study also say that it is too late to treat the syphilis and any surviving participants doctors in the service say they are now rendering whatever other medical services they can give to the survivors while the study of the diseases effects continues does anything jump out at you as missing from that brief account oh? It doesn't make sure that they're black doesn't. Yes it does not mention the participants in the study are black into seventh paragraph, and in only mentions that once that's very interesting. What happens immediately is that this study is seen as a scandal of bioethics not scandal of race, my canopy both exactly. So this is the part where most sort of brief accounts of the tuskegee study don't talk about like and then the story comes out and it'd be like, and then in one thousand, nine, hundred, Eighty, seven, Bill Clinton gave the official government apology. But almost a year goes by before they cancel the study. Yeah and that's part of the story. We need to know that like the movies where it's like the reporter like files, Her story and everyone reads it and they're like, oh, my goodness and then it's like the end of then justice this happened somehow it's like how though like talking about that part the way that this happens is there's a nationwide debate over is this bad basically because almost immediately after this comes out the CDC minimizes what happened. The CDC says very clearly from day one none of these men would have benefited from penicillin at all. There's also super fucked up thing that a lot of debate about it is like well, you know the early treatments for syphilis were very toxic, right? Not taking into account the original beliefs of the researchers that bothers me because it's sort of blowing right past the goal of medicine, which is to try and help people when possible and so the question isn't it of hard on the body also. Like, it'll be like withholding chemotherapy from someone today and then decades later being like well in a way it's good that this person died of cancer because by today's standards therapy as barbera right and also I mean a lot of the sort of well actually style medical journal Articles I read about this said that we can't look at the origins of the that with present ism right we can't. Apply Twenty twenty morality two, nine, hundred, thirty, two, which I think fine in in general right as a general principle we need to look at things in the time that they were done but also at the time that they were done, no one knew that San wasn't that effective and that mercury wasn't that effective 'cause it's actually present ism to say, Oh, it's fine to deny these men treatments. That we thought were effective because they turned out not to be effective. Also I feel like the the we can't use our twenty twenty lens argument that can go in a few directions right and there's like the good faith argument of like it's important to learn as Mike. EZE Can't about the context of a moment in history and how people live than what it was like to try and. APATHETICALLY -ly connect with historical figures that you're trying to understand or there is the approach of Lake. We can't bring our twenty twenty morality into the past because in the past no one knew that it was bad to be racist and yeah. Yeah that's like no. Those were very weird move because as we mentioned last episode, the context was so racist in Alabama in nineteen thirty two that would actually be very odd if racism wasn't one of the motivations right boy, right? Yes. It should actually be a starting assumption that when a group of white elites do something to poor black people in Alabama in one, thousand, nine, thirty, two race is probably fucking in their. States. Yeah. So John Heller is one of the only architects of the study who's still alive and nineteen seventy-two. So he becomes the front man for this debate and he is the one that ends up doing all the interviews about what sort of what they knew at the beginning of the study they didn't. So he gives an interview to Ebony magazine, which is actually the article where Lily heads father. That's how he found out that he was in the study because his. Son Read this article in Ebony and then called him. It was like didn't you used to talk about this nurse that used to come visit you and get your blood but anyway, John Heller, the architect of the study is quoted in this ebony article saying there was absolutely no racial overtone. This was not an attempt to exploit the Negros, we always told them what they had. So just straight up lie he's also quoted in New York Times article later in Nineteen seventy-two saying. See why we should be shocked or horrified. There was no racial side to this. It just happened to be in a black community part of our mission is physicians is to find out what happens to individuals with the disease and without disease. They're also a world historical. Well, actually this is incredible. The man who was at that time in charge of the CDs Venereal Disease Department. Is John Miller and so in one of the follow up articles later in Nineteen seventy-two, he says the study wasn't unethical because this is a direct quote. Patients were not denied drugs Dr Miller stressed rather they were not offered drugs. Fuck you. His basic argument is that it's not that they ask for drugs and we didn't give it to them phages never asked us for drugs. When you get diagnosed with cancer, your doctor doesn't say like you have Satan's crab. Expect you to know what that means that I'm not telling you anything else. Yeah and it's like people have to fucking know they have a disease to ask for the cure for the disease. I've never asked my doctor for cure for leukemia because my understanding is that I do not have leukemia. Why the fuck would these men have ask for cure for syphilis if they did not know that they had syphilis everyone knows that people conversational asked doctors all the time her medicine. Just. Leukemia medicine. And the director of be like Oh actually now that you mention it, you do have that. So James Jones who writes the nine hundred, eighty, one book bad blood like the first book to come out about this he says something very insightful about this. He says Miller's failure to discuss the social mandate of physicians to prevent harm and to heal the sick reduced the hippocratic oath to a solemn obligation not. To deny treatment upon demand this is like white collar crime because it's like no one told me not to do what I was doing this. So this is why the debate is so poisonous at the time is just because the information that the American public has is just trash rain and all these white doctors and project leaders are lying and it's like well I. Guess I have to believe you because. Our whole infrastructure is based on me believing you right. So the study finally comes to an end in nineteen seventy three when the government appoints what's called like an ad hoc citizen's panel, they basically create a board of experts. It's five black people and for white people, and it's like various. You know doctors and ethicists, and it's sort of like expert panel that's going to investigate what happened and give a recommendation about whether or not the study should proceed. So it is very importantly, it is chaired by gunning broadest butler, who's the president of Dillard University which historically Black University, and he's also one of the Tuskegee airmen. Wow. So as your cynical mind is probably already expecting, this panel gets completely kneecapped and is not able to do anything. So it's only given fucking seven months. Originally, they get seven months they asked for three month extension, they get it, and then they ask for another three month extension and they're denied. So basically, it's like these nine people they have ten months to unravel a forty year long experiment it can't be done I mean that's setting someone up for failure, right? They're also the only documents they're able to review our the published reports from the study these thirteen articles that appeared in medical journals they're not given access to the correspondents. Of the doctors in nineteen thirty two. Wow, this is wild. You're not gonNA believe this. So this is a quote from Vernal Cave who's a black position who's on the panel we went to Gigi we interviewed the victims, nurse Rivers, the sociologist everyone we had them all on tape where we got back at the next meeting broadest Butler said the first item on the agenda is whether we should keep the tape what I was amazed. The others were amazed and we spent the whole session talking about the tape I'm going to confess that during that session. I thought of the fact that nurse rivers was an important person in this whole thing. In a moment of weakness I said to myself it would be a shame to have this woman put in court put understand. Hillary. She was an innocent victim so I went along with destroying the tape. Oh No don't destroy the tape never destroy the tape and also nursery only gave two interviews in her entire life after the study we know so little about what she actually participated. I understand that argument, the extent that you don't want someone's life to be destroyed late disproportionately where their complicity and plan that was much bigger than them. Totally, and I feel like that speaks to the fact that we need to. have consequences that don't fall disproportionately on like the easiest and probably like relatively lowest members of a conspiracy. Oh. Yeah. Oh, this is one of those atheism that you know I'm sure people know who said it but to me, it's lost knowledge but the argument that if it can be destroyed by the truth, it should be exactly right i. mean we never heard testimony from any of the tests subjects. Yeah. All of the you know they were told they had bad blood. They were never told they had syphilis. They were given these fucking spinal taps on the basis of this bullshit ass letter none of that comes out. Brought US Butler is an interesting guy in the. He doesn't want any mention of racism in the report. This is how Alan Brandt describes it failure to place the study in historical context. Made it impossible for the investigation to deal with the essentially racist nature of the experiment, the panel treated the study as an aberration well, intentioned but misguided that's kind of the conclusion of the country but the first year, the pre penicillin phase of the study. Also, this wild. So this is from Harriet Washington's book in the end. The panel wrote a strongly worded report that was critical of the government and the Public Health Service. However, all of the interviewed panel members agreed that Butler refused to sign it or even to chair the meeting at which was discussed the surviving panelists. They felt critically important to present a unanimous report. So they argued long and bitterly until at Butler's urging, they adopted a softer version whose language was less critical and so when the study finally comes out and. It sort of sent to journalists that sent you a congressional committees. It's all over the place. It comes with a cover letter by broadest Butler that says, the chairman specifically abstains from concurrence in this final report but recognizes his responsibility to submit it. Wow. So it's a descent. Yes. Wow. So he pushed the entire panel to come to a consensus so that they would have the sort of unanimous front when the report came out and then still disavowed the report. Yeah. What do you think about he says in letters at the time that? He doesn't WanNa take sort of two political tone or too much of what we would recognize as like a woke social justice e tone and he wants to do something very dry and fact finding and he's afraid that they're doing too much advocacy. So does have a fear that it's like it's going to be met with less credibility if it appears to be politically motivated exactly, which is timeless argument. Yes. Yeah. You can also it somewhat more defensible because they didn't have access to the fucking archives one I think of here you know. If you're walking the line between the fear beam discredited if you appear to have any kind of political viewpoint at all and saying something kind of milk toast than like, I'm this is something that recurs over and over again and this kind of work. But what happens is because the sort of the only information that we ever have about this is this debate where there's all this garbage information coming out of the CDC there's this report comes out that says, everybody was doing their best racism really had nothing to do with it. That really sets the tone for the debate over the Tuskegee experiment, and there's eventually a civil suit in nineteen seventy four where the participants in the study sue the CDC and the government, a bunch of other government agencies, and because it settled out of court, we never do any really good factfinding and the settlement is really small. So it's only about forty thousand dollars each family oh God that's basically i. mean the closest thing to a happy ending we get. Is that first of all, the study is terminated nineteen seventy-three, and then in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, four, the government quietly agrees to give free medical care to everyone in the study. So they do get penicillin if they want it and then all of their wives and children if they've been infected with syphilis also get free medical care for the rest of their lives. So that program is still going on actually some of the children and grandchildren are still alive. So that's cool. But how does this come to be seen the way it is today right? How does how does that? I mean, I think. The biggest thing that happens is in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seven, there's this apology. So Vanessa was on the committee that pushed Clinton to do this and there were other government apologies coming out, do episodes on about sort of people that were exposed to radiation deliberately, and then people who participated in the ski experiment we're like where. The fuck is ours ours is extremely bad. So they start pushing and what she said to me, this is actually really interesting. One of the reasons why became so urgent at the time was because that fucking HBO movie came out in the late nineteen ninety S. it's called Everson's boys. I have not seen it because everyone just Gigi experiment fucking hates it. It's based on a play fit is built around the conversations that nurse rivers has with the men in the car on these long car rides to and from the hospital, but it's heavily fictionalized. So apparently, nurse rivers like the plot is nurse rivers falls in love with one of the patients and the thing. That's the first thing that happens when something gets fictionalized. Oh. Exactly. Apparently, the filmmakers like are very clear about this fictionalized jumping off point from thing that really happened. We just want to be really clear that it's fiction but people watch these things and they don't. They don't know rightly normal people do not watch these things and know which partisan which part isn't well, and I think the the way that movies act on our brains. We Really. It's not fair to expect people to be able to separate lake what they know in their cerebral brains to be the truth literally in the. She's the scenario that they experienced with these coworkers. They're they're watching their faces so closely and all these feelings are happening and you have. Specific memories and maybe a strong emotional connection to one scenario, which is by definition the less truthful one. Yeah and also I mean I was talking to Vanessa about this and I was like, Oh, it's interesting how pop culture effects you wouldn't think that a movie comes out and then Bill Clinton gives an apology for it and she was like to be clear. The movie is not the only reason happened right? Like we had been working toward this for a very long time, and this is really important to the survivors, but it's just interesting how pop culture creates it opens doors in this way I mean you know in? The same way that a film can be inaccurate and yet still give viewers a sense of strong emotional connection to the general subject matter like I feel like if you want to raise the profile of a controversy in terms of creating an environment where someone who's in a position of power is held accountable by the fact that suddenly their constituents are emotionally invested in something. Yeah. Then like that seems like a useful push, you know on top of everything else yeah. So in nineteen, Ninety, seven when Clinton apologizes seven survivors of the study are still alive. Wow I. believe the last participant instead he died in two dozen four. So. I want to close with something. Vanessa told me and I think this is a really really important way of framing. This Vanessa has a lot about this. She's a medical historian. She knows how far back African. Americans distrust of the medical system goes and she says, we usually frame that as a crisis of distrust rather than a crisis of trustworthiness. The distrust is a pretty understandable reaction to what the medical system has done, and so it's always framed as like why don't these people trust the medical system and not why has the medical system failed? Why haven't we been trustworthy? Why Way we tortured? So many people you know I don't know what the solution to black people distrusting the medical system I don't know. The solution to that is I do know what the solution to untrustworthy medical system is right. That implies an actual fix right making this much more equitable, much more accessible something. That is worthy. The trust of various marginalized populations across the country. That's something we can actually do. But when we blame distrust that doesn't imply any responsibility to do about it. Yeah, and it implies. Not that there's something wrong with the institution that is asking to be trusted or the people that are asking to be trusted, but the fly is always with the patient. Yeah, and so that's that's the tuskegee study. It's a bummer. What have. We learned. Jesus. Christ. Mega. TV. Movie Out of something if you possibly can, and if people aren't sufficient attention to. Among other things. Yes. To me actually, the biggest lesson is to really consider what beliefs your good intentions are masking When we start out on something, we need to look at the potential effects much more than hiding behind. I'm just here to help some of the worst things that have happened have been done under those five words. So we need to be very careful when we see people justifying things by their own intention, right? You can't. You can't declare yourself the good guy. Yeah. Unfortunately, we all WANNA. Think we're the final girl, but we're actually Jason I'm stealing your metaphor. Thank you. Cason and other times we are Jason Alexander with our panel. Brennan. Beautiful.

syphilis penicillin United States Public Health Se John C Cutler US Ski Syphilis Study Susan Susan River Jerry Seinfeld Pittsburgh Macon The New York Times CDC Peter Buxton researcher West Virginia Pennsylvania county Alabama reporter
Tuskegee Syphilis Study Part 1: The Lie

You're Wrong About...

1:17:36 hr | 3 months ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study Part 1: The Lie

"So. Yeah. The TUSKEGEE. Experiment really the only word that applies syphilis. Pattern. Welcome to you're wrong about where it's just a little bit of history repeating. That's very good. Thank you. Because it's true and reference to a lovely Song Shirley Bassey, which I'm sure second year head now, and if you have to take a break and listen to it and come back like please do that. Okay. This is where you do. We Stop I need to do that too. And we're back. I am Michael Hobbs. I'm a reporter for the Huffington Post I'm Sarah Marshall I'm working on a book about the Satanic Panic and if you want to support the show and here fun bonus episodes we are on patriotic at Patriot dot com slash wrong about and there's other ways that you can support the show or you could just listen to the show and not do anything and that's cool to. Support US emotionally the our emotional support listeners. and. Today we are talking about the US public health, service study of untreated syphilis in Macon County Alabama I'm stress. It is objectively stressful. This is going to be a two part episode to date. We're going to talk about the origin of the study and next week we're going to talk about the downfall of the study I should say here right off the bat that this includes a lot of like. Quotes from Nineteen Thirties, racists, writing letters to each other. So you can imagine the kinds of things we're going to encounter in this episode. Yeah. But now that we've established that it's going to be stressful and upsetting what do you know about the Ski Syphilis Study I mean what I think I understand it to be is that the US government wanted to study the effects of syphilis on the human body and they were like we need to walk some people just have some syphilis and so my understanding is that they mainly use black men. Yes. One hundred percent of the subjects were black men. Okay. Yeah, and my aunt. So my understanding is that like these men had syphilis and we're not told they have less true. Yeah and we're not treated for it and what happened was this the nineteen twenties it's started in nineteen, thirty, two, it went on for forty years got it is known as the longest non therapeutic experiment on human beings in the history of medicine and. Public Health. Wow. That's what you find in the text books. That's really yeah that's terrible. Tell me how how big do you think the study was Oh god I have no idea. Isn't that funny? All I really know is that it happened at some point my gas for a study of that nature is that you would we would want a large number of subjects. My guess is like five, hundred, two, thousand subjects Oh. That's actually quite close. Really there were six hundred men in the study total, but two hundred of them were controls. So they didn't actually have syphilis also deceived about the nature of the study but there were four hundred men who had syphilis and who were not deliberately weren't treated. We don't have clear numbers on how many men participated in this study just because the science was so bad. But at least one third of those men died of syphilis and another part of the toll of this study that doesn't get talked about as much. Is that at least twenty, two wives, seventeen children and two grandchildren were infected with syphilis and I never even thought about that before amazed at how this fact has lived in my brain for so long but I've never his like Italy on like a bus ride or something then like what would that involve like I should read about that I? Think it's a really important study to talk about right now because first of all. I fucked up in one of our Michelle remembers episodes. I said something along the lines of bla-bla-bla the test Gigi study where they infected a bunch of black men with syphilis Blah Blah Blah, and that is one of the most common urban legends about this study that the men were deliberately infected with syphilis and when we were talking about this episode, I reference that and you went. And so. So you kind of how? Spoiled it I'm sorry and so then after that happened I was like Oh. Yeah. I have thought of it that way and there were in fact, US government studies where they did deliberately infected illicit Phyllis and we will talk about them but the purpose of the ski syphilis study was to steady latent syphilis. So all of the men who were enrolled in the study had already had syphilis for more than five years, right? So specifically, it's like it's not the US government didn't infect them with civilised because the US government didn't do that kind of thing. Because for the purposes of this experiment why would they bother doing that? Exactly yeah, and I also quickly bust the myth that the tuskegee syphilis study has anything to do with the Ski Airman Oh, which is a completely different thing. Do People think? Well, the problem with that is that the airman is referred to as the to ski experiment Oh because they're like, let's say a flak men can fly planes. Yes. Literally I know about the to ski gear men because there's a TV movie about them with Laurence Fishburne I was just GonNa talk about this. Oh another thing that does not help is that there is An HBO movie about. Gigi Syphilis Study also starring Laurence Fishburne well, it's not laurence. Fishburne fall that Hollywood was only willing to cast three black actors. The isn't one of them. The other reason I wanted to talk about this now other than just my own penance for getting this wrong and thank you. Pointed that out by the way like it's it's really good that we get push back on this kind of stuff. The other reason I want to talk about this now is fiske's the Philis study was a conspiracy. and. We're at a time where we talk about conspiracy theories constantly, and this is a bunch of high level expert people meeting behind closed doors bet craig jacks with like silly codenames. Yes and deciding to harm the most literally the most vulnerable people in our society at that time like this is it right? If you WANNA find a real conspiracy while they could also. Secretly, sterilize black women who came to get medical care, and in fact, we're also doing that. So they had a lot of bases covered at this time. It's a one of the quotes that goes around in an internal memo. One of the architects of the tuskegee syphilis study said in writing we now know what we could only surmise before that we have contributed to their. Ailments and shortened their lives well, we can only surmise before which is fascinating too because it's like was that ever in doubt though like what was the purpose of this? So what's interesting is that quote from nineteen fifty is in sort of all of the literature that you read about the Ski Syphilis Study it's everywhere like that is like the smoking gun of they knew. What they were doing, but I think is really interesting and I think the central you're wrong about this episode is the second half of that quote one of the things about this conspiracy and I think a lot of conspiracies is that people thought that they were doing a good thing. Really. So the first half of the quote is we know that we have contributed to. And short in their lives and then he continues I. Think the least we can say that we have a high moral obligation to those who have died to make this the best possible Oh and you see this over and over again is that they use the fundamental initially of the study as a reason to continue. This becomes the justification for the study that we've gone so far in these men have suffered so much. So it would be a bigger injustice to stop. Now that's why people stay in apocalyptic colts when the apocalypse fails to manifest they're like, well, I've already alienated my friends and family so like this has to be true totally. And it's also I think very important to acknowledge that with the morality of this that there was never a big moral leap from doing something good to doing something bad. It's actually really chilling that when we walk through the steps of this study, it's all little stair step moral sacrifices. We've already killed quite a few people. So it's it's. GonNa keep going but so I just think it's important to keep all of that in mind as we start because none of this is a defense of what anybody did in designing the study but I think it's important to understand the ways that conspiracies true genuine evil conspiracies, our most often organized by people who do not believe that they are doing evil I have like my own questions about star wars which I feel like can act to the thesis which are, why would they call it the death? Why wouldn't they call it? The HOPE STAR Or the Salvation Star like. Show star or or the Empire Star. It's like we know that the way governments like the Empire in Star Wars function is more along the lines of the Reagan administration. So. We have to start with syphilis because the structure. The extremely weird structure of this disease is really important for understanding how the Ski Syphilis Study came about how me about civilised my yeah. What do you know about aunt? Phyllis. What do you know about the course disease takes in the body okay. So I watched this really cool PBS special ones about this monastery where they found all these bones, a former clergy, and we're looking at them and realize that a lot of them have had advanced syphilis. Okay and so I understand that it's been with us for a long time. Yes. I feel like maybe at initially presents with like mild symptoms like maybe burning sensation I like most things burning sensation. And then my understanding is that if it's left untreated, it deteriorates your brain i. think it does Linus maybe the biggest overtime it's extremely bad news but the yes, the disease has been around since the fourteen hundreds we don't know exactly when I have a hundred and thirty one pages of notes for this episode and I think this is my favorite quotes in the entire thing to shoot your water early. We can be done after this. This is something that was around Europe for literally centuries and it just such a strange disease that everybody had a different theory of it. So this is the quote, the French called it the Spanish disease, the English Italians call to the French disease the Russians called it the Polish disease, the Polish called at the Turkish disease, the Turkish called it the Christian disease, the to Haitians called the British disease in India, it was called the Portuguese. Disease and in Japan. It was called the Chinese pox we Hawk Cova Chinese Markets Syndrome. It just it's a good L. Association of the way that diseases are never free from politics. Yes. The minute you get a disease, you're instantly going to put it into a framework that you can understand which is it must have come here from some societal other that we just like, yeah, it's not our fault. So syphilis has three phases. The first phase is you get like a little polyp like a canker sore type thing on your junk or in your job. and. So one of the reasons why men were chosen for the study is that SIS dudes are more likely to notice when they have syphilis because their genitals are on the outside of their body and they're like, Hey, a polyp, the problem with it. What makes it so difficult to know when you got it is that these little canker sores they don't edge and they don't hurt l. but can you got inside your vagina? Okay. So is another reason why oftentimes early syphilis studies were done on men also general misogyny but men are much more likely to be able to pinpoint when they got the disease. So they can tell you like, oh, three years ago I saw this policy women. If they test positive, they might have had a pop up like a month ago or like eight years ago. So that's the first phase you have that it goes away on its own. It goes away after a couple of weeks and then there's phase two called secondary syphilis you get more lesions, but they're all over your. Body. You often tend to get a rash on the palm of your hands Oh. Do you think that has to do with like the thing about how masturbating we'll give you like hair on the palms of your hand Oh, I hadn't thought about that. Maybe that is related. Maybe you these weird lesions rash on the palm of your hand but that goes away. How long do they last? These things can be like two weeks to six weeks. Okay and then after it goes away the second time, then you get what is called a latent syphilis and this is where it gets real. Weird. So these numbers go back and forth. But for the sake of simplicity, roughly one third of people who have latent syphilis get spontaneously cured. So like you test their blood ten years later and there's no syphilis and it just went away on its own for reasons that we don't totally understand this SCOTTS board. and. Another third still test positive for syphilis. But they have no symptoms never had another outbreak there just like I still have syphilis. The final third are people whose bodies get attacked by syphilis. It can happen anywhere. This is what's so weird about syphilis and why for years it's called the great imitator it can cause blindness, it can cause deafness, it can cause insanity it can cause loss of nerve function. So your arms and your legs go numb, it can deteriorate your bones. Your skin, it can cause them. They called a your dick weakening which susceptible to have a heart attack. It causes paralysis anything in your body can basically start getting eaten away by syphilis. And that can happen five years after or it can happen fifty years after that's terrifying guess and an extremely important aspect of latent syphilis is because the symptoms are so wide. It causes such a wide range of illnesses. The only way to tell if somebody had it is to do an autopsy. Because if somebody dies of a heart attack, you can't say, Oh, it was caused by syphilis. If somebody goes blind, you can't say it was caused by syphilis unless you do an autopsy and you get tissues and you look at them under a microscope. So this becomes a really important aspect of later on and also another thing that makes it really hard is that most of the early treatments caused the same symptoms as the syphilis. So like mercury. You knew where this was going why did we give Mercury for everything? It's like you go to a doctor at any point in history and are like I have a cop on there like. I think the problem is mercury. So cool. Yeah you look at. Mercury is someone in like eighteen twenty this has to work for everything had to be magic, right? Another problem of using mercury to treat syphilis is that mercury also causes a large cluster of weird symptoms, right so like it can make your hair fall out and sort of make your gums kind of start to rot, which are also things that might happen with syphilis is so weird. Yeah, and then how do you get people to come in for treatment if all you can offer them as like maybe something worse. Thing. Yeah. So the big breakthrough that explains a lot of what happens in the syphilis study comes in one, thousand, nine, hundred, six. There's a German chemist need Paul Ehrlich who comes up with if this weird derivative of arsenic that is called ours phetamine Or Neo Feminine but the sort of the the Nadine that it gets known as eventually is Salver San and that's easier to say so I'm GonNa say that Salver Sandy Alverson. He eventually wins the Nobel Prize for us. It does actually treat syphilis. There's something in it. It's US enough that it kills the syphilis. So for the time, this was a massive breakthrough and when do people start being able to use this. So this was widely distributed around nineteen ten and became. Tens and nineteen, but fives what was really difficult about salver. San was that it takes ages to actually work and it takes all these treatments. And more effective or they thought it was more effective. It's not clear if you sort of combined it with other heavy metal treatments. So over the course of the nineteen, ten's they were like, okay salver San is good but you also have to mix it with mercury or you have to mix it with this black stuff called business, which is like this other weird poisonous heavy metal thing. It's actually the reason why PepsiCo Biz mall that's where we get the mall. Because it was derivative bismuth originally Biz, at one of the historians that I interviewed for this name Susan, she's written two books about this, and so this is an excerpt from Susan reveries book on the Tuskegee study the best treatment of early syphilis in nineteen thirty nine consisted of alternating eight to twelve week courses of bismuth and Salver San without interruption for a total of sixty weeks. So more than a you God the patient with believed to be an latency, the treatment was modified to three eight week courses of weekly arsenic injections alternate. With, ten weekly injections of Bismuth followed by intermittent additional courses of more bismuth where a total of eighty to one hundred weeks is rough. So we're talking long treatments Viz Mer spit. BIZZARE. There's also I had to like double check this because it sounds bananas that one of the problems with giving people, all of these heavy metals and these regular injections that it lowers their body temperature. So a thing that you have to do to counteract this is to raise their body temperature. So one way of doing this was to put people in this cabinet like a hot yoga cabinet where the. One hundred ten degrees another way to increase the body's temperature is to give people malaria. Fever and then you give them quinine why tamp down the fever and then like a couple of weeks later you give them malaria again, I feel like you could give someone a fever without giving them malaria like I don't know I'm not an old time doctor you understand why over history there is this attraction to homeopathic Madison, her Blake we're going to treat you with serves anything bigger than that. You're going to go quietly sitting in the forest. I mean it is the same logic almost as the chemotherapy. We're just GONNA nuke your entire body and the ad kills the bacteria before it kills you. Yeah. So that's the state of the science at the beginning of the to Ski Syphilis Study, which is what we're finally going to talk about now there are essentially two explanations for how the syphilis study got started and I WANNA walk. You're both of because I think that they are both true. Okay. So the first explanation is the good intentions explanation. This is the the road to hell is paved with explanation. Yes. So at the time, the country was gripped kind of moral panic about syphilis because all of this data was coming out about World War One soldiers and how much disability syphilis had caused for the army. It was the number two cause of soldiers losing time just after the Spanish flu, it was like a huge problem fairly excuse me don't get killed by SUP list we have to get you killed by someone else your age exacts a different language. So there's an agency. Of the government called the public health. Service which we don't really talk about anymore just think of it as basically the CDC will eventually get folded into the CDC. So they have an entire division focused on venereal disease and they know that venereal disease is higher in black and rural and poor populations, but they don't know how much. So in the late nineteen twenties, the Public Health Service sets out on a study to get a baseline. So all they want to do is find. Out How bad are syphilis rates in rural Louisiana Rural Mississippi Rural Alabama we know that it's there. We know that it's a problem, but we don't know how bad. So the first study takes place in Mississippi where they basically just go around these rural areas give people blood tests, take the data, and they find that roughly twenty percent of the rural black population test positive for syphilis. Really it's really bad. So they conclude a study in their sort of concluding report they say. Syphilis is probably the major public health problem among rural Mississippi negroes today. So they know that this is a problem they know that they have to do something about it. So they start coming up with a large scale treatment program thanks Gigi. Syphilis study began as a program to offer treatment for syphilis for rural blonde relations. This is the heart of the good intentions explanation interesting. So basically, they start fishing around for philanthropy funds because they can't afford to do it themselves so they. Julius Rosenwasser Fund, which is a Chicago based foundation that is specifically dedicated to the health of the rural black population. So they go to this philanthropy and they say, okay, we wanted a six state across the south large scale programme to find out who has syphilis and offer them treatment. So they get fifty thousand dollars in nineteen thirties money to start. Doing this study. So they fan out across the south. One of the places that they go is Macon County Emma. We're GONNA set are seen they start testing across the South Macon County it's not the highest, but it's one of the highest they find a thirty six percent positivity rate and they also know that the Tuskegee Institute, which is now just geeky. Which is an institution founded by Booker T. Washington it started out as a teacher's. They would train black teachers and then send them into schools if an expands to all these other areas eventually has hospital that has like black doctors black nurses at treats black patients. So we have a county with extremely high syphilis rates and an institution that has already dedicated itself to helping the black population. So the Public Health Service is like perfect. It's all here. So we're GONNA make making county the center of our Alabama t and then they pick other locations in other southern states. So in two dozen seven, Harriet Washington published book called Medical Apartheid the. Dark history of medical experimentation on Black Americans from colonial times to the present, which is terrific and has a great scorching chapter on the Tuskegee syphilis study. So this is an excerpt from her book describing the conditions in Macon County win the researchers get their to start the study. She says, slavery had ended in Macon County nearly seventy years earlier, but in name only except for the staff and students of Technology Institute, most of the county's twenty, seven, thousand blacks live the same lives as their insulated forebears in nineteen, thirty, two, eighty, two percent of its residents were. Black and half of those lived far below the poverty line. Their median income was a dollar a day trapped in the exploitative cycle of tenant cotton farming. They were chained by debt and forced to work the same land as had their enslaved grandparents and like Alabama slaves they owned nothing not even the crumbling shacks they lived in these sharecroppers including children were weighed down by hundred pound bags of cotton living and working under the orders of white land owners who kept him in economic thrall done by paying low prices for their crops and charging inflated prices for food. Seed and other necessities those black who tried to flee the land were arrested, punished, and return or worse just as are enslaved grandparents would have been. The only thing blacks had was a great deal of illness. A lot of these people have literally never seen a doctor because at the time medical care is totally segregated. So you can't go to white doctors and there's only sixteen doctors in the entire county and only one of them is black So all of that is to say as they begin this massive treatment diagnostic program, this is UNAC- stream vulnerable population. So I, am going to send you a J pegging on. Okay. Read that. Okay. So it is a Flyer Alexa something that you would find hacked up on a bulletin board or passed out at a busy intersection or something like that, and it says colored people do you have bad blood free blood tests free treatment by county health department and? Doctors You may feel well and still have bad blood calm and bring all your family, and then it lists dates and times. So they're really this is an aggressive campaign. Yes. This is the flyer that they start putting all over the place in Macon, county where they are testing people and giving them treatment, and this is also to me this is an important moment this flyer because it is the first lie. It says on the Flyer. Do you have bad luck? Yeah. They're not saying anything about syphilis, which is interesting because glad is a lie that is used on white people of time. It is used to sell them jared hall. I mean later on people will defend this lie by saying the rural black population of making county understood that the term bad blood was a synonym a polite way of saying syphilis. So is there any legitimacy to this claim? What do you think about that? No. No, bad luck the catch all term, the people used for all kinds of right they they use it for like a mental illnesses. They use it for things like chronic fatigue. It was just something like something wrong like saying I feel itchy. Mean nothing. This is what I mean by the Little Stair step morality is that you can defend a like. Saying look the whole purpose of this is to give people treatment. So we trick a little it's further good yes and Diseases are not openly discussed in society at that time, but also like I can see a situation where you kind of bring people in from Rod Swath Society, with garlic do you feel if she for then like once you have them there you're like have you noticed a little thing on your penis? Yes. Now, and then you can have a frank. Conversation about what you're looking for, I? mean. This is the thing is that you can talk yourself into this kind of thing. Yeah, and that American medicine is a long and lustrous history of triumphs and heroism and also Charlotte Henry also people talking themselves in to doing morally indefensible things step by step by step by step over and over again. In medicine as in law I would say actually because these are who fields that asked to be enshrined and worshiped from afar. But actually are a bunch of people like sticking their fingers and gushing wounds Yep doing their best. In the official documents for this project, the plan was when people tested positive for syphilis, they would tell them. Okay. You have bad blood and they were planning to offer them twenty injections of heavy metals and one hundred and ninety two mercury rubs. Where do they rub the mercury? I'm your area. This is Oh, do you to review the instructions of what they were telling people I do I do they would they would send them home with mercury and a rubber belt. So the instructions were rub the south into the skin on your stomach when you get out of bed in the morning, then put on the belt see that the belt fits snugly where belt all day and take it off before you go to bed at night. So basically like here's this poison your way. The poison into your skin as much as possible all day long I like how we theme in our past few episodes of like American history going. Try It. Apple Chess I mean look mercury's bad. But it is also note worthy that they were giving people what they thought was treatment. Yes. It's not fair that dragging them heard the very thing that that we think they should be doing right so so but art here's a question like are people given information about what's happening? Are they being told like this is syphilis? No this. Is. Actually. A very important aspect of this is that at no time during the study is anyone told that they have syphilis that's really bad. They are only told you have bad blood and what's the rationale for that? This is incredible. There is still a debate about whether or not the Gigi study was racist, but this is a debate continues in like manner journals to. My goodness come on you guys, I have found Medical Journal articles from Nineteen, Ninety nine as recently as nineteen ninety nine saying that they had to lie because these were uneducated population. These are people who wouldn't understand what the term syphilis men and so the only way to get them to take their treatment was to just tell them you have bad blood. My father didn't cheat on my mother, his penis fell into that other. Accident but it's so it's such bullshit because in arguing against the influence of race there actually demonstrating what race is doing to the. Project and even researcher twenty, five years after it comes to light because. Doctors diagnosed you with diseases. You have never heard of all the fucking time you have like fibromyalgia and then doctor walks you through what it is and what you need to know about it, and like gives you the various treatment options like the fact that all these people didn't know what syphilis was. It's like that is most medical diagnoses. Yeah. It's already pretty bad. So it's interesting that we start off with the foundation of. Good intentions and then ignorant white. Hankins like very quickly taking the turn into like we can't tell them. Doing because we're helping them, but they're not our intellectual equals exactly. But even as they're planting these little seeds for what's going to get really bad people point out later that they are actually treating a lot of other diseases that are not syphilis. So give out eventually three, thousand, five, hundred, typhoid inoculations, their immunizing kids against Diptheria, their immunizing kids against smallpox. So it's not only syphilis that they're looking at. I mean, they're primarily interested in syphilis, but they're also they're giving people food. They're giving people seeds apparently to grow crops there's all kinds of. Public healthy stuff that they're doing while they're coming into contact with these populations once they come into the center. So all of this is happening it's considered a success and then in Nineteen thirty-one, it is canceled because of lack of funds because we're in the middle of the Great Depression. Now, this philanthropy says the heavy metals are expensive. The staff is expensive. We can't do this anymore. So we'RE GONNA cancel the entire project. It's actually I mean it's so important to keep the background. Racism of this context in mind that as things get really bad in the Depression in Macon, county there's a government effort to get flour to poor people because people aren't being able to eat because all of their crops are going bad is also that harvest crops. So there's this government program that distributes flower to the poorer farmers who can't crops anymore, but you have to be white to get the flower. Yes. Why you also have to prove that you're not getting any other government support. Because what if people get free flour Mike the? Flower Welfare Mon- racking up the flower. There's also I. Think this is such an. Engine even though it barely comes up in a in the descriptions of the study that were written is that in the nineteen twenties, the ten years before this study was carried out there were at least thirteen confirmed lynchings and Alabama. Yeah. So it is also baffling to me that people write about how like race had nothing to do with the study when like this is the context that the study is taking place in yeah. Link I think were still considered an appropriate date night for a lot of white people like I think. If you if you have only seen the pictures of Lincoln's that don't depict the crowd of smiling white people hanging out at the base of the tree from which they've just hanged someone be really he asked us out. So anyway, the study gets canceled in nineteen thirty one because they're out of money. So then the two government doctors who are in charge of this project their names are Taliaferro Clark and Raymond von Der these are the two guys that have been working on the demonstration project so far Arkan von Der. Clarkin. Bundler. Do neither of them have a moustache. I believe both of them to. Okay. As the study gets canceled because they can't afford the treatments anymore these guys come up with the idea why don't we continue doing the project but not give treatment anymore they did not designed this as a forty year study to never give these men treatment again, they designed it as why don't we keep the study going for six months we now have all this data we have all these people who. Have tested positive for syphilis. These guys aren't GonNa get treatment anyway. So rather than shutting down the project and losing all these contacts, why don't we use this as a scientific opportunity to try and find out more about this disease and how it works on the body? So why don't we do more tests of these guys just for six months and then once we can afford to we will give them treatment. Yeah I mean, this is tough. Right because I feel like this is the kind of thing where you could go in believing that you really were going to start beating people in six months and then I can imagine that it's multiple steps to never treating. It's still don't have funding. So it's another six months and then I mean what happened well, this actually brings us to the second explanation. Do you WanNa guess what it is that? It was secretly all along an attempt to find a population and observed the effects of civilisation them sort of as a clue it starts with a you and ends with a genetics and passing. So this is a very important aspect of the study. The entire study was designed to prove a racist hypothesis. So at the time, the theory of syphilis was that it affected the brains of white people and affected the nervous system of black people. And so the idea was that because white people have more advanced Breen's syphilis tax them. So the actual purpose of extending the study for the six months, he's to confirm that there is no neuro syphilis among black people because their brains are undeveloped. You talk for a second about just the basic argument of Eugenics at this time is my understanding is that it's it's a hierarchy that white people invented where there's this spectrum of humanity between you know the most human and the least advanced human closes to our primate ancestors. And White people are at the very top obviously, and Interestingly Asians are in the middle because they have the intellectual capacity to imitate. One of the things that comes out is when European travelers start going to China and they're like Holy Shit. This is like a really advanced. Society. Incredible. Architecture math. They have all these inventions but lay, we didn't come up with until recently and like. What how did this happen? So the theory becomes other Europeans must have visited like one hundred years ago or something and that you meet people are learning to imitate it. So even when presented with counter evidence like maybe we're not the most advanced society it's like Oh they're only advanced because they're copying us. and. So this is an excerpt from an article by Alan, Brandt who's a researcher who specifically writes about the intersection of racism and the Dusky syphilis experiment so he says. By the turn of the century Darwinism had provided a new rationale for American racism essentially primitive peoples it was argued could not be assimilated into a complex white civilization scientists speculated that in these struggle for survival, the Negro in America was doomed particularly prone to disease vice and crime black-americans could not be helped by education or philanthropy. So one of the founding genesis myths that has kind of gotten lost now is this idea that black people were stricken with STD's at much higher rates. No then white people so This sort of this study that set. To find people in Mississippi to test them to find out what the baseline level of STD's was even that was based on this idea that well, we know that STD's are really high in the black. Population. Assumption was based on eugenicist presumptions, but if they had gone to the Hamptons. A very important component of this was not only the people had higher rates of STD's than white people, but they refused to get treatment for them. So this is another excerpt from Harriet Washington's book central to race medicine was the belief that blacks were different from whites and that he disease could have differing effects on blacks versus whites. There was considerable belief that syphilis was a more. indolent disease in blacks than in whites it was noted that many blacks had syphilis and few were dying of it. So it was this idea that syphilis attacks black people at a slower rate and doesn't have as severe effect on black people as it does on white people because white people are more evolved and therefore more susceptible to illness according to this metric doesn't really make sense but. We're delicate delicate flowers of intellect. Bill, as you can see, how given these society-wide stereotypes the idea of were is not gonNA treat people for syphilis. There's already this pond of Muck in your brain saying we don't really have to treat them because syphilis. In them anyway. Right. So we have to look at the foundation of Societal Racism on this entire experiment is build from the beginning. This is from Clark the doctor who's designing this aspect of the city wants to extend it for six more months. He's talking about why syphilis is so high and making county. He writes this state of affairs is due to the paucity of doctors rather low intelligence of the Negro population depressed economic conditions and the very common promiscuous sex relations of this population group. These relations not only contribute to the spread. Of Syphilis but also contribute to the prevailing indifference with regard to treatment. So again, we see they don't want treatment anyway. Yeah, and you're starting off a study where you're going to eventually denied treatment or any knowledge about their condition to the patients and justify it by being like this demographic of patient wouldn't care to now anyway and wouldn't seek treatment. Anyway it's. It's fine like we we know I mean it's You can tell that you're practicing dehumanizing eugenicist categorization on someone if you're seeking in any way to generalize their behavior or what they might want or your ability to understand their mind based on your racial classification of them, but it's also I mean. There's point in debunking the stuff, but there's this idea of sexual profligacy they can't help it. That's why syphilis rates are so high in the black population. Later on people do follow up studies where they find out that sixty one percent of syphilis cases in Macon County are congenital syphilis they got it when they were born. So it's like even as just a basic precept like black people have more sex than white people that's not even established. They're just taking that as a given. There's also something really interesting bit in climates around the world you have a disease called Yaws, which is basically an infection of a wound. It's something that you get when you're walking around barefoot unlike dirt roads and there's rocks that cut you, and then it will be infection factual get into the wound. yaws is a close cousin to syphilis. So a lot of the syphilis test they're giving people are actually detecting yaws. which has nothing to do sexual behavior at all. So again, just basic fact fact-finding kind of scientific basis. This is not sound science. Yeah. There's also the fundamental error of interpretation where it's interesting that they're saying, okay. Black people in this county are a little bit reluctant to get treatment rather than thinking. Okay. Does this have to do the fact that there's literally one doctor or they live hours away from a clinic? Or they cannot afford to get treatment more those things important nano if they're black and black people hate getting treatment, this is the argument we shall see about how white people are in some way better than everyone else because we're more likely to use the resources that we are more likely to have. Yeah. There's also I also interviewed for this a medical historian named, Vanessa. Northington. Gamble who was on the committee that. Worked with Bill, Clinton on getting an official apology for the syphilis study in one, thousand, ninety seven, and she's written really interesting articles about Tuskegee showing that one of the myths of the tuskegee study is that this was sort of the origin of black people mistrusting the medical system and she shows that medical experiments of this type have been taking place since slavery right? Like there's a long history of this kind of. Shit being done to black people and knowing this right. So there were folk tales like urban legends basically that went around among enslaved people of something called night doctors these doctors that would come and kidnap you as you slept and go do experiments on you, and that is something that happened. They would actually take people and then do experiments on them of pain resistance and these just like horrific studies. This is actually Another thing that you don't find among the doctors at this time we were designing the study will why are black people a little bit resistant to get treatment? It's like well, they don't trust the medical system for pretty understandable reasons and reasons that endure. Yes. But to me the reason why it's important to talk about both explanations that they're good intentions and their genesis I still think both of those are true that. It's very easy to want to help a population and still consider yourself superior to that population. Yeah. I. Think we think of these a dichotomy, but this actually characterizes like I worked in international. Development for eleven years like this still happens right I want to help these people but I'm going to decide how to hell and I know bass and they're not going to be consulted about how they're being held or even. Going to be told what's going to be done, and so I can help peak went away that reinforces my superiority right and when we look at things like policies to take indigenous children away from their parents to take their language away to sterilize people who we think shouldn't be procreating. Well, we see over and over again are members of the majority group defending what they did on the grounds of why they did it. I think. It's very important to stress that good intentions and terrible effects are not mutually exclusive and so this is sporting a bit but in the nineteen fifties, there's all these ethical standards come out after the revelations about doctors collaborating with Nazi regime and doing all this euthanasia terrible shit. After we learn about the Tiscali experiment after all of this becomes public the author of the first major book about the dusky study. He's interviewing one of the guys who worked on the study and he says to him look you were doing this study in the nineteen fifties. There's all this information coming out about Nazi doctors. There's all these ethical rules coming out in the medical system that would make your study illegal design from scratch you didn't ever think. I should maybe reconsider the study in light of the information that's coming out and what this guy says to him is, will those guys were Nazis? Yes I who am doing fundamentally the same thing I'm not I'm not saying, I'm wearing a little outfit. Because I think the sort of talking about the good intentions of the people that designed the study Kim sound like a defensive them. We'll be right whatever and I don't think it's important for that reason remotely I think it's important to know how these things happen exactly, and this is the way that it happens over going and this is the way the conspiracies form over and over. Again. Yeah. Intentions are only as good as the intentions however, and so in nineteen thirty, three, this six month study period begins there essentially setting out to prove the differences between syphilis and white people and syphilis in black people. So they're like never mind actually this is perfect. So they basically start recruiting people and they're only interested in men who have had syphilis for at least five years. One of the people who I interviewed for this is a woman named Lilli head whose father was in the study. His name was Freddie Lee Tyson and hers main thing and the thing that she said was the most important to mention on this show is that what we really lost in the historical reckoning with to ski is really looking at these men as individuals like it's actually really rare to hear about the actual victims of the study. Yeah. It's a one of her main points was that it's true that a lot of these guys started out as poor sharecroppers Bun. These men did not remain poor sharecroppers for most of their lies. So would you said about her father she said I wish everyone could have known him. He grew up in super poor making county he ended up working in forestry. One of his jobs was replanting trees in these parts of Alabama that have been used for cotton for so long that they had no more nutrients in the soil and Alabama did this huge project to replant forests on all of this land? He was super proud of the fact that he ended up building the barracks that housed the Gigi airmen. He was eventually a firefighter. He became a really skilled carpenter he moved to Texas he moved to Connecticut. She said, you, know, these are people were uneducated only twenty percent of the subject of the study ever got more than sixth grade education because that was the only education that was available and making county. That's where a lot of their education stopped. Because that's what was provided but they weren't stupid right. So a lot of these guys ended up being like ministers got college degrees. These are not people who didn't know what was going on. She also mentioned that her mother, Jenny May Neil Tyson both her uncle and her cousin ended up in the study. Lily now works for a foundation called Voices for our Fathers Foundation, which is trying to bring more attention to this, and they're trying to do a memorial garden. And their website has a list of six, hundred, twenty, three men who were the victims of the study, and it's really striking how many of them have the same last name? So because the information about these free tests ended up, oftentimes being spread by word of mouth like Oh hey I got a test for bad blood last Tuesday they're going to be here next Tuesday the effects of the study ended up being concentrated in specific families. Can you tell me more about just who these subjects were? His who they were as people, it's a lot of men who ended up sort of being part of the great migration of African Americans out of the South and into the oftentimes they're moving for jobs and a lot of them end up moving three or four times. So this from James Jones's book, the men were primarily farmers who owned land or worked on shares. Others range a blue collar jobs from elevator operators to lumber mill workers to fruit picker today laborer one man reported that he was a retired schoolteacher with a college degree. And so one of the men in the study named Charley Pollard this is what Susan revie writes about him. Charley Pollard inherited his farm just outside of ski from his family and continued to buy land. Until he had more than one, hundred, sixty acres, he recalled making money from his farming and being able to bargain for the cotton that he harvested with the first mechanical cotton picker in the county owned by a black man as good at carpentry as it farming. Charley. Pollard built his own house and helped build the Shiloh missionary Baptist church where he was a member on. Land his family had owned. He was an officer in Macon County Democratic Club and district captain for these Civil Rights Organization the Ski Civic Association Loquacious Thoughtful. He too had a deeply developed sense of the racial danger of Alabama and what's interesting also about Charley Pollard is that his father Lucius Pollard was also in the study and died of syphilis in nineteen, fifty seven, and so one of the sort of lingering tragedies of this study is that a lot of the guys who died earlier, who were the most direct victims of the study of having treatment for their syphilis being denied. A lot of those guys died sort of unheralded deaths simply because the record keeping in the study was so bad and we're gonNA talk about that more next episode. We also, we know that at least one thousand children were born to men in the study during the forty years the study was going on, but we don't know how many of those children were born with birth defects or died in their first year of life because that's typically when congenital syphilis has the worst effects. So we should also note that like there's a lot about the toll that this study took that we just don't know. Rights I'm GonNa send you another thing. This is a huge component of this phase of the Study Okay Macomb County Health Department. Dear Sir sometime ago you were given a thorough examination, and since that time we hope you have gotten a great deal of treatment for bad blood. You will now be giving your last chance to get a second examination. Is a very special one, and after it has finished, you will be given a special treatment. If it is believed, we were in a condition to stand it. Remember this is your last chance for a special free treatment. Yeah, and the last line is in all caps terrifying. This is actually an advertisement for what they're actually going to give them in. Some. Kind of poison. A spinal tap oh God. Why because the only way to confirm that somebody has neuro syphilis the kind of syphilis it is in your brain to get spinal. God. That's terrible. Terrible terrible. Can we talk about what a spinal tap entails? I don't super-duper no but I know that it's extremely painful I mean it involves putting a needle like into the smallest someone's back yet and you have to obtain spinal fluid. Yes and it can cause discomfort for days. It's a very invasive procedure and that's something that like. I don't know to me. It's very obviously unethical to to someone about doing that to them because it's not treatment for anything like in no exhaustible view is that helping them with any health issue they have is only caused them pain? Yes. This is the central lie of this study is that all of the men believe that they are getting treatment if you have discomfort if you have these weird symptoms and somebody says, we're going to give you this shot. It's going to hurt but it's treatment for what you have. It's GonNa make you feel better. You'll probably sign up but none of these guys know the actual reason for getting the spinal tap the reason they're going through all of this discomfort nobody is toll. So. They deliberately leave this until the very end of the six month period because they're afraid that the patients will tell other people they specifically say we don't want word getting around right? That's terrible I. Think this is really bad too. They also start giving them aspirin and telling them that it's like this special treatment for syphilis or for bad blood. This is from Susan reveries book doctors dispensed inadequate medications such as aspirin, which was craved as a miracle drug by the overwork sickly men who marveled at how it assuage their omnipotent aches and pains. So basically, these are guys that have never gotten medical treatment before because it's not really available to them and so to them aspirin is. A miracle. Drug Aspirin is a Miracle Drug Aspirin is as I'm a few went back in time engage people aspirin they would lose their minds. So these guys think that it's a treatment for syphilis. They think that they're getting this special incredible drug that's helping their civilization. It's just aspirin. Yeah. So it's already really kind of a web of lies at this point. Yes, and so that's the end of the six month study. They end up getting three hundred spinal taps and they're basically done. There's there's a time when they're like literally packing up their office and then the other designer of this study Vonda layer starts to think about wait a minute we have all of this data now we've. All of these guys with latent syphilis, why would we just pack it in an abandoned? So this is something he writes to Clark in nineteen thirty three. At the end of this project, we shall have a considerable number of cases presenting various complications of syphilis who have received only mercury and may be considered untreated in the modern sense. Should these cases be followed over a period of five to ten years? Many interesting facts could be learned regarding the course and complications of untreated syphilis. So. This is when they start thinking. Why don't we extend this six month again it's a pretty small moral step right? Because you're going from like we've already done this for six months. So what's the difference between six months and five years? Yes. So at that point, a flank already taken on one order of scale of unethical behavior, and now you are going up another order of magnitude. Yes. Yeah. A it appears it Vonda layer he's interested in this idea of spontaneous cure that want somebody had syphilis for you know five ten years whatever do even need to treat them. How people attempted to animal experimentation at this time? Like is that a possibility? Yeah. There's all kinds of rabbits studies. HAS THAT YIELDS A useful results. I mean it's as useful as animal studies can be. It's like you find it in rabbits, but like it's not clear whether rabbits actually mean anything for humans. One thing that lily had actually said to me was the entire purpose of the study all of this shit that they're talking about they've already established it. There's been other various studies like treated syphilis like there was no treatment for syphilis for decades, right? Right. So the whole world was a study or real. History. So she's saying like what Lily said to me is like we already have the percentages of spontaneous gear. You have various other studies that have shown how many people just don't have syphilis anymore. How many have symptoms this data already exists the only reason to keep doing this is to find out how it affects. Black. People. Well. Another thing that occurs to me is that once you have undertaken this experiment, you started it and then you've lost funding and then shit you know your reputation is on the lying your career is going to have to recover from this blow. In some way. I can also seeing it makes sense to accept the sunk cost fallacy of it all and thank never mind this is a useful experiment were his going to. You this other thing that probably isn't necessary but that's what we're doing this. Yeah. Our and Von der ends up becoming the assistant surgeon general good for him. Good. Old Bond Bundler this study was a ladder. Promotions for a long time for a lot of people I mean this. Very Okay. So okay. So then this had like institutional acceptance and enthusiasm. Yes. You have to know what happens to black men if they have untreated syphilis. Oh Yeah. This was not like a Clark and von Der. Jam this was like the entire agency was behind this fascinating and that's why everybody's sort of. Around this new study, idea of well, why don't we just sort of see what happens and Susan be told me that it appears von Der Phil telling himself. We'll look we're still in the great depression if money becomes available for treatment will treat them. But for now, we might as well just follow them for a while right we might as well just see what happens. So there's also a lot of self deception happening Magus waiting her events checking and I think this is also indicative of the morality in what they are actually doing is a huge shift because originally the study was about giving people treatment was done. Under the hippocratic oath type of framework, right we are here to find out what the disease is and treat it to the best of our ability and if we run out of money, they will figure something out but we are here to treat bright. What von Miller is proposing is essentially shifting to an observational study. All we're going to do is observe this population and observe the way that this disease affects us population. As if we were not here, that's a huge shift. This is not something that the Public Health Service is doing with other disease. This is not something that the medical public health community like thinks of itself as doing right severe special rules that exist only for this experiment right and the Great Depression eventually end there's much more money for treatment eventually but because they've already made the shift in their minds of Oh, we're just observers here. Again. It's so important to me how race makes it so much easier slide down this moral ladder. You know a lot of people say later they're like, well, there weren't ethical standards in science at the time and informed consent was not invented until nineteen, fifty seven, which is true. But if somebody was doing this to someone, you knew you would find this repellents right this on a basic gut level of we're going to tell you that we're treating you and giving you an extremely painful procedure and fucking line to you about it. You don't need ethical guidelines to tell you that is not above board. Yes. Some action going to play racket ball of your friend Walter Walter from for and he tells you about you. Know the experiment that you're conducting happening to him and you're like, no not Walter Right because the idea I think is that Walter the white lawyer from Stratford Connecticut doesn't need to suffer in order to give something society. His existence is already legitimate. He's already allowed to be here. Yes. So the other big shift that happens with this new study design of extending the six month period is the men become only interesting to the researchers after they die Oh to track the symptoms of latent syphilis. Remember you have to do an autopsy? So the entire study essentially becomes around just keeping track of these guys until they die. At one point, one of the designers of the study refers to participants as cadavers have been identified while still alive. That's all they're interested is the men's bodies after they. And so in one, thousand, nine, hundred, three start sort of assembling the team. The last puzzle piece that they need to get into place is they need to convince the Teske Gigi. Institute. Institute has actually been working with the study since before the incident sort of vaguely involved, they'll go to meetings or they'll advise on stuff but because they need to be doing autopsies, they wanNA bring them in for yearly physicals they want to be taking blood regularly. There's all these other logistical tasks that have to be done. They Enlist Ski Institute to be the sort of logistics partner, and so in this really great article by Alan Brandt he talks about. The weird tight rope that the Gigi Institute is walking at the time because it's a black institution, there's a black president hospitals run by a black doctor named Eugene Dibble. It's dedicated to the betterment of black people but most of its funding comes from white lead philanthropies. So they have to be doing this thing where they have to be helping black people, but they also have to be doing it in a way that is palatable for their mostly white donors. and. So these surgeon general rights unofficial letter to the Ski Institute talking about this very exciting opportunity to ski institute it appears is told treatment will not be provided for the men. So they are fully briefed on the nature of this study and Eugene Dibble the guy who in charge of the hospital, the Black Hospital that's going to be working on this. He agrees because he thinks that working on this big project with the US public. Health Service is going to help unlock federal funds later. and. One of the reasons why the name the Tuskegee syphilis study is controversial. Now, because it sort of implies the institute was part of the study from day one when we're writing late in all of this, when the institute really starts to play an active role, and so it's really the US Public Health Service study the institute itself was not central in planning and coordinating and implementing this. It can also be called Nick Clark Monitor Study. Yes. But so another thing and this is really chilling. Find out is that behind the scenes, the architects of the study are talking about how they need a black institution basically as cover because they know that the black population of making county is never going to go along with this white people providing to them understandably. So yes, her reasons relating to the very thing they're doing. So this is from a letter that one of the architects rights to another in nineteen hundred three says, one thing is certain. The only way we're going to get post-mortems is the have the demise take place in Dibble's hospital. That's the hospital onto skied. When these colored folks are told Dr Dibble is now a government doctor they will have more confidence. I, mean, this is like conspiracy theory Shit, right? Yes they understand and it's funny as you can also see how they're rationalizing they're like, well, the subjects don't trust us we need to obtain a black doctor to he uses are hobbit but the people don't trust us because they're wrong right? They don't understand what we're trying to do and the fact that they don't trust us doesn't mean that we should modify our behavior not. All right. So it is one, thousand, nine, thirty, three and the study as we know it begins this is now a study that is going to track black men with syphilis and not give them any treatment. One thing that's interesting. When you read shorter studies of this are summaries of this oftentimes, it split into these two parts that there's these long descriptions of the origins of the city everything we just talked about, and then it'll have like one or two sentences, and then they'll be like in one, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, two, the downfall of the study. There's Years like the opening of contact. Are we going fast forward through forty? Quake and then it's like and then. Area And so I was wondering about this and the reason why is that for the Middle Forty years when the studies just trucking along it's essentially just a big logistics task that the only thing they're interested in the deaths of the men, right so all they need to do is keep addresses of the men every once in a while we'll go draw blood they'll bring them in for physicals, but it's not clear how many of the men got physicals but they just need to sort of track them in, and then once they die convince their families to do autopsies. I wasn't even really an experiment you know that's giving it too much credit I know. You're about to feel very weird. The purpose of this notion to make you feel weird because I've been feeling weird about it for like a month. Okay. So the person who is at the center of this logistical task is a black woman named UNICEF rivers. She is one of the earliest employees on the study and she's the only person who was with the study for the entire time. She appears to be just like a genuinely good and competent and caring person later on a few interviews that she gave. This is James Jones in bad blood and nineteen eighty-one. He asks her why didn't you ever go into medicine like your clearly smart why didn't you ever WanNa be a doctor and she says I think if I had wanted to take medicine I would have gone into medicine I was never interested in medicine as such I was interested in the person and it just never occurred to me that I wanted to be a doctor. I always felt that a nurse got closer to the patient than the doctor did that was the way I felt about it. And so she became a nurse because she wanted to care for people and one of the fascinating things about the study is that after it goes public after the big downfall, it becomes massive scandal, the men who were in the study who were victims of her in some ways right that she had been lying to them for forty years. They would still call her at night for advice. Now, they'd be like, Oh, I sprained my ankle, what should I do and? You know she used to drive and pick them up and take them to Gigi, and oftentimes because they're in rural areas, it's like a one two, three hour drive to get them, and so she would have these long car rides with them where she would get to know them. She eventually tells James Jones she says really and truly when I was working with those people that was the joy of my life on that does it become a means of offering them other medical care I mean. She justifies her participation in various ways over the years. One of the things she says is that she thought that she was protecting them from the racism of the doctors. That the doctors that we're doing the physical examinations of these guys were basically like white assholes who were really and really condescending to these rural sharecropper guys. Wow really and so she apparently would be in the room with them for the examinations and it'd be like, Hey, hey, don't talk to him like that and she saw herself as protecting the men from this sort of interpersonal on a day to day basis kind of Shitty treatment without, of course, seeing the much broader structures of like what the entire study was designed to do. Well, the end. Yeah and that's a question. We think she know the goal of the study Oh. Yeah I mean she she knew. There's stories of eventually in congressional testimony. There's a black doctor in making county who says she called him up and specifically prevented some of the men from getting treatment. He was going to help the guys civilised and like tell them their diagnosis and she was like, no, no, you can't do that and there's like these sort of rural health projects where they would run buses to Birmingham Alabama where there's better medical care, and apparently one of the participants in the study was waiting in line for one of these buses that was gonna take him to Birmingham, and she was driving by and she happened to. See Him and she pulled him out of line and she was like, no, no no, you can't. You can't go there. That's not for you shouldn't tell them why she was behaving with all commitment. The ideas fully briefed. However, there's also some evidence that she snuck some of the men into treatment. One of her students because she's teach at the university says that she told the class that she actually advised the men to go to Birmingham some of them that she developed relationships with she'd be like look I'm not supposed to tell you this but like there's a clinic in Birmingham, go to the clinic. There's some evidence to that. She deliberately lost some of the people. Some of the men who like maybe we're getting treatment. She would just go to the doctors and be like whoops I lost track of John. So her ability to misplace some people's contingent on her ability to keep track of them generally another piece of evidence for this as we have a letter from one of the doctors in the study, this is really fascinating key suspect her working behind his back. This is from his letter he says. I began to doubt nurse rivers conflicting loyalty to the project several times. I've wondered whether she wears two hats, one of a public health nurse locally coordinating the study and one of a local Negro lady identifying with these local citizens of her race who've been exploited quote unquote for research purposes. So it could be that this is just like a racist prick and assumes that she has dual loyalties because he's an asshole. or it could have been that she actually was sort of pointing some of the guys away from the study and like subtly pushing them toward getting real treatment. and. So we have evidence of both evidence of her specifically denying treatment to patients and we have evidence of her maybe sneaking patients in. Detroit. I can. I. Can hear also functioning from a perspective of like this is going to happen whether without me so. I can be the one to do this job and do a good job and these like human beings and maybe slipped some of them some of Real Madison sometimes. Yeah. In Vanessa gamble this medical historian she wrote a really insightful article about nurse rivers where of course, he's pointing out that like what was she supposed to do? Right? She's the lowest level employees in the study she's a woman she's black she's a nurse. There's all kinds of shit between doctors and nurses about sort of hierarchies and stuff. Did, she even have the power to sort of be a whistle blower right now. So this is this is kind of a long extra, but Wanna read it because I think it's really interesting. It's sort of it. It Mir's like the weird conflicted that I feel about rivers. This is from Vanessa Worthington gambles article about nurse Rivers. Rivers a modestly educated black nurse in the profoundly segregated Alabama of the nineteen forties s occupied the lowest rung of the medical hierarchy. Hers was an era when a nurse was a handmaiden trained to assist not the question, the physician and a black nurse occupied and even lower professional strategy than white one yet rivers came to shoulder the burden of America's most infamous instances of medical research abuse. She's been accused of retaining men in experiment that she knew could only harm them. But all her spontaneous statements focused proudly on the care and protection that she provided them. What she asked about the studies details perverse responses are in Kobe. An. Echo the can't with which the Public Health Service researchers have agreed to defend themselves which suggests that rivers never understood the science behind the study. Her crime was believing the public health service doctors who told her that there was Beneficent Work However, I can't completely excuse her as much as I long to i. wish that she had asked more questions once the question of whether the study was ethical was openly raised in one, thousand, nine, sixty, five, I wish that she had demanded reassurance on that point or left the study instead she compounded her air by her continued blind faith in the researchers she had been trained to surf. And so. The closest thing to a conclusion that I can come to is just like she seems like a really nice lady who did something really bad. Yes and history is full of Nice ladies who did bad things? Yes. She sort of I mean maybe this is totally maybe this is totally unfair but she kind of reminds me like Kato Kaelin figure. Who under sort of different circumstances you know she would've lived like a morally unblemished life right right that it seems like she was carrying for individuals that seems like her guiding principle throughout her life with caring for people and she just sort of got drowned by these circumstances that were just much larger than her that she couldn't see all the context. You couldn't see the way that she was playing to it and. That doesn't mean it's defensible, but it's also like she's not the one who was like I shall prove this eugenic. Please, like it's just complicated right we can never know her mind in terms of like wishy internally reliever of the whole time he citing through believe her thing she was like, well, this is going to go forward with or without me. So I can mitigate this and that was her she went about doing it like we don't know all. Her we now that we feel weird, we're GONNA end with a twist. Okay. We're GONNA end with weirdness and then twists. It's like deeper dice cream. Yeah. I was GONNA. Say It's like Nineteen Seventy S Italian horror movie. So. Do you want to hear the third explanation for the origin of the to ski syphilis study until the Little Known Third Explanation Aliens? It is capitalism. Oh Yeah because what a researcher finds out in one, thousand, nine, hundred, five is debt. One thing I didn't mention about syphilis is that it's very hard to keep alive outside of a human body, and if you want to make diagnostic tests for syphilis, you need a lot of blood that is infected with syphilis. and. So what the study did was it provided the public health service with a steady reliable supply of syphilis infected blood. It's a little syphilis far. Yes. So one of the very strange market forces that was going on at the time was between nine hundred and thirty, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, the demand for syphilis test went from to million a year to twelve million a year. Yeah. I did not know this in a lot of states to get a marriage license you had to test negative for syphilis. Oh. Is that why they did a blood test? Is that why? When you're watching like splash or something people are getting a blood test before they got married I guess. So, in the face of this massive demand, the public health service was galloping to develop a new diagnostic tests because if they had a diagnostic test, they could patent it and they could. Make money off of. What the study did was it just gave them a shitload of syphilis blood that they could use. A diagnostic test. They did in fact, develop a new diagnostic tests, and then how much money did they make off of it and have reparations been paid to the survivors of these experiments I'm hacked. I mean ab so -lutely not. I WANNA. Be careful here because I've read the articles that this third explanation of the origin study is based on. The evidence that this was on their minds at the beginning is pretty slim, right the only evidence that they had this in mind from day one is that the experimental contract with the Alabama Public Health Department include a clause that any tests that are developed out of the study. The intellectual property is owned by the Public Health Service, but it's not clear to me if that's just like. A standard 'cause that goes in one of these contracts and all of the correspondence about developing his tests and how important the blood is developing his tests. It's from the late nineteen thirties. So it's actually possible that Clarkin bandelier didn't really have this in mind but it was only later that people at the public health service were like, Hey, we have all this blood we can use it so. It's clear that it was used to make a new diagnostic test however, like that is pretty well established, but it's not clear if that was one of the motivations at the beginning even though you hear people say that was one of the motivations in the Early Nineteen Thirties I. think it's reasonable to the way. These things tend to harass in the world that people can start off having better intentions or at least feeling. That they have good intentions and then those intentions insertive you know roll around as a sticky busty thing and then over time you know avarice plays a larger and larger role. It becomes more and more profitable intentions and the people hearing them out change over time. Right so I mean I feel like in this case, it's not a it was capitalism all along story it's a it was racism first and then capitalism yeah yeah. You know that combination certainly comes up a lot to. This is not the first time we've seen that. Yes. But so that is where we are going to leave it for today. What are we gonNA talk about next time. So next time the twist is going to be the development of penicillin boy. I love the story of penicillin as someone who often ends up with mall vicious in my room. A. But that is where we're GONNA. Leave it stay tuned next time for more odious. It's all going to get more depressing, and after this, I really want to do an episode about baby animals or something I need to do one. And they're all, they're all lying together on a big pillow. Yes. Exactly and nobody is pumping them syphilis blood.

syphilis Ski Syphilis Study Disease US Macon County Nineteen Thirties Alabama TUSKEGEE Study Okay Macomb County Healt researcher Mercury Shirley Bassey Michelle Alabama HBO Macon Michael Hobbs Laurence Fishburne
Tuskegee Syphilis Study - First, Do No Harm | 1

American Scandal

43:39 min | 1 year ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study - First, Do No Harm | 1

"July nineteen seventy two San Francisco, California. It's a pleasant summary evening at a pleasant dinner party and pleasant apartment filled with chitchat and shop, talk and international affairs reporter with the Associated Press named Edith letter breaks away from her conversation to refill her wine glass letter scans living room. Everyone appears to be having fun. Everyone except the low man by the window staring out of the city lights after a minute. She recognizes him an acquaintance, Peter Buxton. She walks over Peter nice view, right? Yeah. I guess there's a long awkward pause Edith. Do you know how I came to this country? I thought you grew up in Oregon. I did. I was born in Czechoslovakia and thirty seven my father was Jewish. So we ran bring this up because I think you should know that something very similar to Nazi sciences being practice here in America today. Muderer swallows hard. No more casual sits from her wine glass. She's all ears. What, what are you talking about? Mr. random morning. I was in the coffee room. This was back when I tracked the Neal disease for the US public health service. Couple of colleagues were chatting, one mentioned a patient in Alabama. This man had terrible sentence. He said he was plainly insane. Family was scared. So they took him to a doctor. They knew and after a brief examination, the diagnosis was made syphilis tertiary stage, the doctor gave him a shot of penicillin sent him home. But when the higher ups at the PHS found out about the treatment they were angry angry why. Because the doctor treated a man who was not supposed to be treated not suppose now. Wait. I don't understand the CDC a surgeon general, the state of health. They're all in on it. Peter in on what the experiments for forty years, PHS has been experimenting on black men and making county. Alabama in the beginning there over six hundred tests. Now, there's less than one hundred rest are dead, or on accounted for none of them. No, they have syphilis. Doctors running the study, they didn't tell them. They just let them die. They want to see what happens when syphilis goes untreated in a man's body right up until the moment kills him. They even pay for burial costs. Peter. That can't be true. No one, no one would do that. He doesn't possible. I can prove it have all the charts all reports. They're not even trying to hide it. They don't think they're doing anything wrong. The test subjects are all black people all every last one. The study will continue until every last one dies. Musonda does something, and I've tried I've tried, but need your help? This has to be exposed letters head spinning. She finds the nearest coffee table. Such class down. Peter everything you have on this tonight right now. Lederer in Buxton depart that night for Buxton's home once their letter release through interoffice letters round up reports x Ray descriptions, autopsy photos, her eyes, widen at phrases like we are keeping the known positive patients from getting treatment and arranged for autopsy those who die in the future. She takes everything she can carry and starts making copies. The experiment is called the Tuskegee study of untreated syphilis in the negro male. It's the longest running non therapeutic experiment on human beings in the history of medicine, relatively few people in the medical community are aware of it, even fewer have questioned until now most people have had no idea, it's happening, especially not the test subject, but the doctor slowly killing them are thrilled with their results. American scandal is brought to you by chase. So you're thinking about buying a new home at chase? They know you whether it's vacation home condo in the city or new place. Closer to the grand kids. You're not slowing down anytime soon. So you need a lender who can keep up chase will save you money over time by showing you how you can pay off your mortgage faster. That's money, you can spend on a new sports car or on a second home in Scottsdale or taking up goat yoga chase customer. Save more. Learn more at chase dot com slash A S chase, make more of what yours all home lending products are subject to credit in property approval rates program. Terms and conditions are subject to change without notice, not all products, are available in all states or for all amounts. Other restrictions and limitations apply. Owning products offered by AP Morgan. Chase Bank NA an equal housing lender. From wondering, I'm Lindsey Graham. And this is America scandal. Informed consent. Truthful disclosure of diagnosis and test results. These are things we come to expect from our doctors and today in the United States, it's illegal to conduct a medical study involving human participants and less. These conditions are met the rules were signed into law in nineteen seventy four in response to the Tuskegee experiments. Syphilis is a sexually transmitted disease that if left untreated can cause blindness stroke, heart trouble and sanity and death in the early twentieth century, it was a massive public health concern poorly. Understood and until nineteen Forty-five largely incurable beginning in nineteen thirty two more than four hundred black men were recruited to participate in a study on the effects of syphilis and the coming years. Another two hundred men were recruited as controls the issue was, none of the patients knew that they were part of study the infected ones didn't even know. They had syphilis instead. The sick men were told that they had bad blood and would need regular testing and treatment no more specific diagnosis was ever given. And the promise treatment never arrived. Many were allowed to die when they could easily have been cured. The question is why this episode one, first do no harm. It's April nineteen twenty nine when Michael Davis steps briskly into the well appointed office of the United States, public, health service or PHS the white-haired nearly fifty years old Davis still has the drive and focus of young visionary. The start of his career today, he's got a big vision. He's here to see Hugh s coming the ph s surgeon, general not long ago. Davis joined the Rosen, Walt fund a private charitable organization started by Sears co owner Julius Rosenthal for the being of mankind. The son of Jewish immigrants. Rosenthal had poured millions into schools, museums and charities and taking a special interest in helping America's black communities. Davis is the fund's new director of medical services charged with collaborating with PHS to develop black health programs. This is what he plans to discuss with coming settling into a plush office chair Davis, outlines his agenda. Segregation is still very. Very much the long land. But you tells coming a lot has changed in the old days. The philosophy was that since blacks live sinful, lifestyles, they got illnesses, venereal disease and deserved what came next discomfort physical figuring even death. Luckily, he continues such medieval thinking is a thing of the past enlightened doctors now understand that improving black public health will improve health for everyone. So and now Davis is excited. It's time to get more black people into medicine train these workers to treat the citizens of their community gesturing, as he speaks Davis calls for the hiring of black, nurses, physicians and sanitary. Inspectors? He tells coming, he wants money invested in the construction of black medical facilities. The establishment of scholarships that will promote black public health training. He concludes by saying they'll focus on rural blacks in the south and partnering with the to ski institute, Annella Bama. A black university co founded by Booker T Washington. With his pitch concluded Davis sits back satisfied after minute coming nods says he likes what he's heard. He tells Davis get started right away. thousand miles away in bolivar county Mississippi, Dr Oliver Clarence winger smiles to himself as another long day at his health clinic, draws to a close. It's early September nineteen twenty nine and even though it's a Saturday. There's no place he'd rather be. He helps one of the doctor sort of many vials of blood samples collected this afternoon, even more than the day before, and that's good. Looks like you'll be able to complete testing ahead of schedule when you're came to Mississippi following his success as director of the PHS venereal disease clinic in hot springs, Arkansas his clinics cater to local black communities and wingers, proud of that as a white doctor in the south. He sees himself as something of a shepherd. His patients are like children. He explains to friends all need a little guidance, and it's he's happy to give he spends his days. Improving their health drawing their blood for analysis and administering. Injections knowing wants to help them feel better, it satisfying. Plus, these people really are a hoot loading, the blood into a truck Wang, or chuckles to himself recalling what just happened to Dr Vard to negroes approach provide and said they felt week after having their blood drawn the previous day. Specifically they felt that their sexual powers had been impaired. Dr provide nodded stroked his chin, then propose a solution with the negroes, like their blood back. There is lit up. Yes. They would provide excuse himself, then returned with a one ounce bag of red colored, placebo. He solemnly advised Negros to take the mixture and teaspoonful doses, they promised they would and party with no further complaint. Amazing harmless jokes, aside, though, for years, Wenger's believed that medicine is letting black people down, and he wants to do his part to end the neglect. So he was thrilled when the US public health service sent him here to Mississippi his mission is to oversee syphilis testing for two thousand black locals working for the delta and pine land company, so far he's found that nearly a quarter of the company's black employees carried the disease that revelation has led to what Wang or considers another leap forward, a syphilis treatment program funded by the PHS if it works, you could be replicated in other towns across the country Wang has been running this program to, but he's only a month in and it's hard work the days are brutally hut and the medical facilities are hastily constructed and barely adequate. The infected men can't be cured right now there is no, you're wingers confident, there's one right around the corner. But for now that research processes to expensive and time consuming, so Wayne. During his partner do the best they can with drugs that render the men non infectious. They can at least keep other people from getting disease and Justice, they'd hoped. The program is a success. The PHS does decide to expand so Dr winger heavily heads to Alabama launching another large scale anti-surface effort for the benefit of rural blacks, and they need his help even after years of this work. When you're can't believe how poor they really are lack. Sharecroppers ragged still coated in dirt from the fields roomie is missing teeth, but still smiling way how could anyone live like this? It's a mild winter afternoon in February nineteen thirty the rough and dirty manner lined up at the possum hollow school in making county Alabama. And by the looks of them, they're lucky to have someone like Wang, or to save them from themselves. They even have one of their own a black doctor named CLYDE frost. From the Rosen wolf fund, tending to the men in line. Dr frost, hands of file of recently collected blood to a nurse. Sees winger, watching him, a non when you're walks over his frost sends a patient on his way. Take care of herself. And don't forget, you know, anyone who has been seen by us, yet, be sure to tell them to come by looks like the testing is going smoothly, Dr frost. I'm impressed. Many of these men have never seen a doctor. They're happy to see any medical attention grateful to receive treatment for the first time in their lives. And you're keeping them in the dark. Right. We're here to prove to this country's doctors that the disease can be controlled among rural blacks, what we're sure as hell not here to give these people in education and venereal disease in the facts of life. Yes, sir. It's important, we don't confuse these people with words, they don't know, don't need to know words like syphilis. No one here has said that word myself included. We're sticking to the approved terminology. We just tell them that they have bad blood need medicine, which we provide. Excellent trying to keep us all running smoothly as possible. The fewer needless conversations better frost, can I ask you something, of course, Dr winger? These negroes are extremely trusting almost anything. We ask no whining questions now this seems to be a common trait, amongst negroes. Can you explain it frost takes his time winger can see that he seems to be struggling to find the words? Well, I think that the people here are, are naturally kind and they seem very trusting whites considering how whites treat them down here. That's the prising. Well, Dr Wehner, they've learned to obey authority figures fascinating. Well, I'll let you get back to Dr frost. Keep up the good work. When you're walks away, thinking about that, last exchange, the people here believe in doing what white people tell them to do that has very few questions. He's here to test syphilis and in more ways than one he's found the ideal test subjects looks towards the door as more and more. Black men, enter their this open to suggestion, perhaps, there, other purposes, they might serve, perhaps, they can be driven to make great sacrifices in the name science without even knowing it. American scandal is sponsored by mail chimp. So you wanna grow your business. Now, what growth means new customers and new customers means new marketing male chimps, new, all in one marketing platform is the best way to manage more of your marketing activities from one place, so you can market smarter and grow faster. 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You can expect forgotten oddities of American history, as well as breakdowns of controversial pop culture, events like Tinky Winky outing, when Elvis join Nixon, and the war on drugs, or house, spirit communication, was once full of intersectional, politics, and crossword, puzzles threaten to topple the social order through exhaustive research, and dark, humor American hysteria tries to explain where are weirdest beliefs began how they grew and how much of our past we can find in the present you can bend all of season one right now and season two starts June. Third check out the trailer. And then subscribe, wherever you're listening, now on American hysteria. We cover moral panics stranger danger and satanic ritual, abuse urban legends like poison. Halloween candy and phantom clowns conspiracy theories, like the gay agenda and the aluminum join me Chelsea ever Smith. A former fantastical thinker for a sometimes heartfelt, sometimes Larry sometimes horrified. Look at how these American freak outs shape, our psychology and culture and make us all into believers one way or another subscribed to American hysteria. Now wherever you get your podcasts. It's March nineteen thirty Dr Wagner's testing and making county has come to an end Nana chilly day in the nation's capital. The newly hire PHS advisor to the Rosenthal fund pores over wingers results at his desk, he makes urgent notes in the margins. His name is Dr taller Clark and his family roots date back, all the way to colonial Virginia, which is why I was a true southerner. He doesn't find the six for making county. All that shocking thirty six percents of the blacks have syphilis us nearly eight thousand people he double checks. The data see that it must be accurate. He's fascinated by the numbers, energized and intrigued by them, some ideas of his own about how to proceed, which is why he's invited the Rosen walled funds. Michael Davis to his office to discuss. The findings Davis is aware of the data coming out of Obama and worrisome. Clark knows that Davis has taken issue with aspects of Wayne's treatment from him. Not with. Methods or its conclusions. But, but something else Clark consensus, certain sentimentality Damus. It's not a sentimentality shares, and he knows you'll have to set the director straight place come in. Afternoon. Dr clark. Dr davis. Thank you, coming to see me. Please we said, thank you. If I may Dr Clark get right into it. Yes. The findings concern me concern me too. That's, that's a lot of sicne goes down there. That's not exactly what I mean. Obviously, there's an ongoing health crisis and making county but a few, we need to be careful with how reveal this data to the public Clark players on the most patient grin, he can muster here comes please. Go on, sir. The impression would be given that syphilis in the south is a negro problem rather than one of both races. I fear this really unfortunate emphasis on the negro specifically could rouse resentment among regroups in both northern and southern communities thirty six percent of negroes in one impoverished county in Alabama. Not reflective the country's negro population as a whole. I have no doubt, the is accurate, but we both know that syphilis isn't just a black disease. The Rosen wall fund wants no part of lending credence to that, stereotype. Sure. Certainly, certainly and don't think I haven't thought of this now I know how concern you in the fun. Dr with nego progress in. It's very forward thinking forward thinking, but. Let me tell you Dr northern Negros. The vast majority of them will not give this mattress I can and as far as the southern black concern. Well, they all love the program. I appreciate that Dr Clark, but still man you're bound ask. Why negroes only why not test southern whites as well. We know they have the disease to if we don't test them, we could be accused of bias biased. I sure you buy has got nothing to do with it. I personally would have loved Weiss being -cluded in the testing tree. But I'll tell you, Dr Davis, I know thing or two about southern whites take it for me. They would not be easy to deal with. Whereas Dr Wang assures me, the negroes down south are most quantitive. Do you take my meaning it's a matter of Quat peration and not of discrimination, that the work is limited in Negros. We'll just learn more this way. And that's the truth. Dr corn that is the truth fact. I've lied. Should give serious consideration to expanding the program. We've got a good thing going. Why slow down? All right. Then I won't keep you Dr Clark Clark smiles, stands, and shakes Davis's hand. Thank you. Dr so appreciate you coming in. Once Davis has gone Clark turns back to the data starts foreing plans for the next stage of the program. He wanted to expand and figures everything will be fine, as long as Davis and his Rosenwasser fund, don't get in the way. The following year Clarkson, his office when he learned that the rose fund has gotten in the way for months, he lobbied, the fun to expand the negro syphilis treatment program. But today he's received a letter from Dr Davis the fund has balked too expensive. Specially during the depression, Kark slams, his fist on the desk and paces takes every ounce of restraint he has not to rip Davis's letter to pieces. He reads, it over and over again, and it's more irritating each time in his mind, here's the words in snivelling voice, the fund has regarded it as a privilege to be able to assist during this preliminary period of study an attack upon this great problem in southern rural areas. That's hogwash, Clark things, the fun could find the money if they really wanted to, but would rather back efforts to educate the negro. They're not really concerned with his health. But Clark is he thinks that the P H S should be building health clinics for black people rather than wasting money on schools? Clark has his own pet name for what? These schools might produce, white collar negroes world doesn't need white collar negroes. It needs negroes who aren't contagious bitterly Clark realizes. It's time to write his final report on the making county syphilis treatment efforts, he sets Davis led her side his side. He's never going to look at it again. He closes the office door to shut out the noise of the hallway those sheet of paper into his typewriter sits down against a rapidly punch the keys, but after about an hour writing he abruptly stops. How did he not think of this before it was staring him in the face the whole time, right here in the data Macon county has the highest prevalence of syphilis in the south any of those infected received treatment, but many did not because the Rosen wall, thudding dried up before anyone could tend to them. Clark wonders what would happen if the ph decided to focus on the ones who weren't treated, what if they stayed that way could they be useful to understanding more about the disease Clark? Feeling they could now he's not a monster. Would he prefer to treat the CITIC blacks, of course he would? But if the Rosenbaum fund won't pay for it, that means there's no money to treat those people. So it doesn't matter what he'd prefer, if he can't treat them he can do something almost as good he can learn from them, what Clark's imagining is a sweeping experiment unprecedented in its scope. Doctors know that many black people suffer from syphilis. But do they really know the effects of the disease on blacks, specifically, many of theorized that syphilis affects blacks differently than it does whites, but no one's ever actually proved it Clark feels that someone really should conduct that study? Not someone should be him. That's where he'll make his Mark on medical science. Throughout nineteen thirty two Clark makes plans. This is to be a serious study, a disciplined, an absolute commitment to the scientific method will be required. The subject is untreated syphilis in Negros Clark, is pleased to discover that the work is not without precedent just three years earlier in Oslo, Norway, Dr Bruce guard observed hundreds of local test subjects with primary and secondary. Syphilis examination only no treatment, Bruce guard wanted to study the nature of syphilis induced, cardiovascular and neurologic damage has Clark reviews. The details in German scientific journal he nods and satisfaction smile on his face. Obviously, the study was whites, only it was conducted in Oslo Norway, for God's sake. Does it serves the ideal template for Clark's? Counterpoint a colored only rendition Clark wants to do the Oslo scientists one better. They base their conclusions off case histories the didn't conduct ongoing examinations. So Clark will collect his data in real time with his pitcher, Semel cork starts lobbying colleagues at the. HS. He invites them to meet him in his office at his home, in the local restaurants, most popular during lunch hour, he shares his ideas and encouraged by the response all agree that the studies worth will, yes, there are risks to the infected with those risks pale in comparison to the potential, medical insights, one colleague who is fully on board with Clark's plans. Dr Oliver see winger. He happily agrees to collaborate with clock once again with Wang, or support secured Clark knows it's time to get on a train for Alabama upon their arrival. He tells winger he must see the state health officer, Dr J and Baker immediately. It's a pleasant September day. Montgomery went Baker opens, his office door to admit Clark, Rominger Baker, sits down, then gestures for the men to proceed. He's aware that they have ambitious plans to study the negroes in his state when he needs to be certain. These men know what they're talking about the H doctors described their intentions Baker takes it in nods has for clarification, the seemed like intelligent men Clark promises to iron out certain details. Even admits there are still many questions of procedure to be worked out when Clark has done with his pitch Baker waits. A long while before speaking drumming his fingers on the desk, he realizes he's thought of a couple of things they haven't when he finally speaks he agrees but with some conditions. Yes. Clark into his study, but observing blacks without offering any treatment whatsoever isn't going to work to be perfectly clear. Baker explains. It's not that he has a problem with the potential impact on the. Subjects. He's more concerned with their white employers. They may not be happy to learn of a program that isn't doing everything can to keep their workers as healthy and productive as possible. Banker says at the very least clarken operation must take steps to render some of the blacks non infectious and this is non-negotiable. He asked Clark if they have a deal and Clark says they do when the study starts minimal treatment will be provided with that Baker nods and shakes their hands. The visiting doctors move as though they're about to leave, but Baker stops them. He has one more condition. He tells them that if they're going to study untreated syphilis, and making county blacks, they better, find some local sponsors. He can't have the PHS running about Alabama and experimenting on the locals without the support of a trusted, medical institution, preferably, one that already employs, a number of black doctors, nurses Clark, nods rapidly agreement Baker can see the man filling in the blanks. There's really only one place in the country that meets those conditions and luckily for Clark and winger it happens to be just fifteen minutes away from the heart of making county. From Gumri clarken winger hit the road on their way to the illustrious to ski institute co founded by Booker T Washington. The institute has stood since eighteen eighty one, one of the most significant bastions of black education in the country. A place where blacks can truly receive a world class education, both medical and industrial arts. They're planning to meet with Dr Eugene h dill to skis medical director and they're nervous. They're about to tell this black doctor that the intend to oversee an experiment on local syphilitic blacks. They will not tell the black test subjects that they have syphilis and will observe the disease as it runs. Its course almost totally unimpeded by medical intervention. The experiment will be presented to test subjects as an extension of the Rosenwasser fund treatment program, but it isn't conversations minefield. They'll have to be cautious nuance. And how they go about securing Dr Dibble support because to ski is the only place there. Perriman can be carried out. Dr Eugene, doodle, make sure he's standing straight, when Clark and Wang, your pull up. He hopes he'll be suitably impressed with John a Andrew Memorial Hospital. And with him the hospital is a beautiful brick building with white trim and four magnificent columns at center Dillsworth hard, these past seven years to ensure that it stands monument to black chievements and prosperity, every aspect of the institute, reinforces that serious and legitimate work is done here. Demel recognizes that he must do all he can to propel ski into the future. It's nearly nineteen thirty three and black people to progress in this country must not nicely. He's anticipating this meeting as much, if not more than the white doctors from the us just now stepping out of their core. Low doctor Clark, Dr winger I'm Eugene Dibble notices Clark shoots Wenger, quick look before taking the lead, whether it is certainly an honor to meet you. Dr Phil, we have much. Discussing preferably in private. Can you show us your office? Of course. Once the three doctors sit down. Dr Clark does most of the talking Dibble is contented to most of the listening, he can tell Clark is leading details out, perhaps intentionally perhaps, not this is all to be expected. However, Dibble reminds himself to maintain focus on one thing, the good of the institute. This is a wonderful facility, you have here. We want help you make the most nothing will do that, like you committing to help your government facilitate scientific progress Wang jumps in bat, that in Washington, they'll never forget your valuable service to your country, and your people, Dr till the word we'll do here with your help. If you let us will truly improve public health on a national scale for generations Dibble remain silent for several moments processing, the information he sees Clark and winger. Look at each other almost nervously he realizes that they need him, just as much as he needs them. Dibble is not used to this kind of power, but he likes it. Of course, he was always going to say, yes, the prestige and association with a PHS will bring to ski is immeasurable, but they don't need to know that Dibble puts on his best thoughtful expression, and breaks the silence. I believe I understand you want the institute to provide you with the interns, nurses, you'd like to use our offices and examination rooms, and you will be providing some measure of treatment to making county blacks with syphilis though, some, the details are still being worked up the program will ask the better part of the year, and he'd made sign off on all of this, or the program will not be able to go forward. Yes. That is correct. Well, you have my support. I think the study will be wonderful for the ski institute, our young nurses struggle to secure meaningful employment after we train them out in the world. Why people will rarely agreed a higher black nurse. So if you're telling me, you'll employed by nurses. And black physicians for your study. And I think that's a good thing. That's, that's the most important thing deal notice Clark, suppressive grin. Oh, I agree. Dr and you won't regret this. Now, if you Dr winger is time to work out the protocol, for our study turn with plans together. Propel this finance itution of yours to a level of respect of prestige. It's never seen. Following a brief tour to skis hospital. Dibble's clarken Wang, or to their car smiling waves. Goodbyes drive off cloud of dust and their weight as it settles. He pictures the years ahead all the success to come great new chapter in the history of the institute is about to begin and Dibble is proud of his role in it. It is at this instant, however that who smile fades, if he's being honest with himself. He's not so sure that Booker T Washington, where he's still alive would be so proud divulge shakes the feeling off returns to his office Booker T Washington, isn't here. This is a different time. American scandal is sponsored by calm yesterday with no warning. The sky, collapsed, Dallas rain hail, and Howard's or wins thrashed the city, cutting our power and flooding the living room. So I didn't sleep too. Well, in humid, hot box with no AC. Wondering how much all the food, I'm going to have a throwaway cost. And hoping I can dry out the rug before Milou sets in, but you don't need a minor disaster to keep you up at night. The stress of everyday life is enough, except sleep deficiency does damage to both your brain and your body. But with calm, you'll discover a whole library of programs designed to help you get the sleep your brain and body needs, like sounds gapes and over one hundred sleep stories, narrated by soothing voices like Jerome Flynn from game of thrones and Stephen Fry. So if you want to seize the day, sleep the night with health of calm right now. American scandal listeners can get twenty five percent off a calm premium. Mm subscription at calm dot com slash a s that C A L M dot com slash A. S forty million people have downloaded com. Find out why calm dot com slash A s. It's timber nineteen thirty two. Dr taller Clark is in Baltimore, Maryland. John Hopkins University. He senators speak with Dr Joseph Earl more Dr Albert KAI del venereal disease clinic. He's feeling somewhat desperate for their expertise. Clark knows he wants to study untreated syphilis in Alabama blacks, he's got all the official by and he needs. But when it comes down to the finer points of actual scientific protocol, he still has a lot to sort out, which syphilis blacks will be observed he obviously can include all of making counties infected thirty six percent. How many tests subjects does he need in which one should they be? He's hoping more and kinda will contribute suggestions to flesh out the ticky study so we can begin in earnest as the doctors walked across the schools expansive campus on a Chris fall after noon Clark. It's all the suggestions. He could hope for and more of the two Johns Hopkins. Doctors Moore's the more talkative, he warns Clark pitfalls to avoid, I the study can't be. About black people at doesn't mean examine people by the racist. He says it means examined black men, only Clark writes down a wants to know wine more replies that since female genitals are primarily inside the body. It's much harder to get reliable information as to the date of the syphilis infection for woman early syphilis symptoms can easily be mistaken for something else that make sense to Clark. He asked if there's anything else and more says there is ideally, no men under thirty the younger, the test subject, the more difficult, it will be to observe the late stage manifestations of the illness, next more suggests that the men be brought in batches to the ski clinic and asked to provide a full and accurate, medical history only men who can identify exactly when they're infection took place should be allowed to participate in the study as this will make Clark's job much easier. Additionally Clarke should seek total two hundred to three hundred patients given making counties, infection rates it shouldn't be hard to find. Enough men who meet these criteria. Finally more reminds Clark is something very important. Something Clark already feels. He knows but to him, it's worth remembering more tells him not to forget that syphilis in the negro is in many respects almost different disease from syphilis in the white by Clark Moore's eager to see how the data derived from the blacks and making compare with data obtained from the whites and Oslin Clark and more believe that whites blacks are simply fundamentally biologically different like many American doctors. They cling to the theory that syphilis is likely to damage the neural systems, more and whites. The cardiovascular system more and blacks far copes that his study with it's real time examination of subjects will prove this once and for all. For the past eight months, Eunice rivers has been the supervisor of nightnurses in Andhra hospital at the ski institute as usual, she's feeling beat. It will probably take another eight months before she's used to working all night, not able to head home until sunrise. But you'll get used to it for as long as she can remember, she strive to make her father, proud Albert rivers was a man, so alliterate he could barely write his own name. Eunice can never forget, how determined he was for his eldest daughter, not to be like him. He pushed her to pursue a rigorous education, sent her to a different town, where his sister live near decent school where children could really. Learn something Eunice came to appreciate the fact that her father would always quiz, her on what she'd learned the second, she returned home after a full day of class when she was college age. He enrolled, her at the Skegness toot with what little money had. She took handicrafts, but her father put a stop to that he told her she had potential and could be. Great nurse Eunice proved father. Right. She excelled which is why Dr Dibble promoted her tonight manager. But when doctor Dibble requested a meeting with her today. She got nervous. She's tired all the time. Now. She walks down the long stretch of hallway that ends at Dibble's office and wonders. I make mistake they mix up the x Ray charts something else. She knows she should have double checked, now she's probably about to get fired and right in the middle of what people are calling a great depression. Man. You want to see me, Dr till, yes, nurse rigors, please sit down. Dr Dibble seems happy, so nurse rivers relaxes. Maybe she was wrong. She relaxes more stable begins to talk. He says he's always been admirers hers respects her work ethic, her medical background, her way, with patients, he mentions a doctor Clark, with the public health service, then he comes to the point. So all that said, I have good news nurseries. The P is going to study and his picked to ski to facilitate. That's so exciting doctor, I'm happy to hear that. And I want you to help with the study rivers taken aback for how can I help while the study's going to examine men in our local community? Black men, specifically studies examine the effects of untreated syphilis in the negro male, you've solid background in public health project. So I'd like you to be the special scientific assistant for the study doing well. Yes, of course. But, but what? Well, I don't think I know civil Allah g in enough detail to be useful. It's really not enough to be anyone special scientific assistant. You can do whatever they want done. I don't have to worry about that river smiles, if the medical director believes in her, she completed herself, she allows herself laugh. Well, now what's Finers rivers? Well aft to be honest with you. Dr I would have done almost anything to be off nights has I can assure you this is much better than night duty. I can't wait for you to meet Dr Clark. He's a good man. I think we can trust him. At that moment in nineteen thirty two Dr tala for Clark is in his office, quite pleased. With the latest developments his diligent work has helped him secure the backing of the Alabama state or have health, the Macon county board of health and the to ski institute with all its black personnel, and disposal, the to ski study of untreated syphilis in the negro male will last around six to eight months, and beginning October, which is just a few short weeks away Clark source through his mail, and his Glancy a letter from his colleague, Dr winger he opens the letter up and beams as he reads in, when you're expresses his eagerness to begin an eagerness Clark shares winger. Ends his letter with I'm confident the results of this study. If anywhere near our expectation will attract worldwide attention you will either cover us with mud or glory, when completed. Couldn't agree more. Next on American scandal, the to ski study of untreated syphilis in the negro male officially begins and quickly becomes something darker far from Borys after the selection of the test subject. Dr Clark reveals what he's truly after but the black medical professionals to ski find their into deep to turn back from wondering this American scandal. I hope you enjoyed this episode if you did. Subscribe now on apple podcasts Spotify, Google podcast wondering dot com or wherever you're listening to this right now. If you're listening on a smartphone swipe over the cover on gas fund the episode notes, including some details may miss, you also find some offers from our sponsors, supporting them you help us offer this show to you for free. And if you do like the show, we'd love you to give us a five star rating and leave a review I always love to know your thoughts and reviews are the best way for others to find the show. Tell your friends and family showed them, how to subscribe, you. Can also find us and me on Twitter. Search for hashtag American scandal or follow me at Lindsey Graham, we use many sources when researching are stories but we highly recommend the books bad blood, the to ski syphilis experiment by James, h Jones and the to ski syphilis study, my Fred Degray, just a quick note about our reenactments. We can't always know exactly what was said. But everything in our show is based on historical research. American scandal is hosted edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for airship. Sounds I by Derek Barents. This episode is written by Hannibal DS, editing by Casey minor, an EMMY Cortlandt executive producers are Stephanie jen's Jenny lower Beckmann and her non Lopez for wondering.

Syphilis Dr taller Clark Clark Moore PHS Alabama syphilis Michael Davis clarken Wang Dr winger United States doctor Dibble Oslin Clark America Peter Buxton Julius Rosenthal Booker T Washington Rosen Lindsey Graham Dr Wagner
Vesuvius Destroyed Pompeii and Herculaneum / Tuskegee Syphilis Study investigation announced - August 24

This Day in History Class

15:01 min | 3 months ago

Vesuvius Destroyed Pompeii and Herculaneum / Tuskegee Syphilis Study investigation announced - August 24

"Today's episode is brought to you by oxy clean. So I just moved to a new home which means that I just did a lot of cleaning and one of my least favorite places to clean is the bathroom shower fortunately. Versatile Stain remover which meant getting in those next in crevices and getting into that dirty grout made the job super easy. You've got to try oxy clean versatile stain remover for yourself to work your magic with oxy clean go to oxy clean dot com slash try me in order a free sample that's oxy clean dot com slash t. r. y. m.. E. For a free stain fighting sample while supplies last. My name is Langston Carmen and I'm a black man who loves conspiracy theories. That's why along with the beautiful oppressors iheartradio and big money players are brand new podcast called Mama. told me were each week me in a special guest will explore all the twisted conspiracies that bite me in keeping secret. So listen to my Mama told me available on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or anywhere else that pods are has Hey y'all eve's here. We're doubling up today with two events in history one for me and one from former host tracy will. On with the show. Welcome to this day in history class from how stuff works dot Com and from the desk of stuff you missed in history class. It's the show where we explore the past one day at a time with a quick look at what happened today in history. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Tracy v Wilson and it's August twenty fourth vesuvius destroyed the cities of POMPEII and Herculaneum, and other surrounding cities in a volcanic eruption on this day in the year seventy, nine hump was a really bustling port city. It was very wealthy and elegance. It had a thriving wool industry. The land was very conducive to sheep also, very conducive to growing grapes that were beautiful. Vineyards all of this wealth and affluence came because Pompeii was an incredibly rich soil and the soil was incredibly rich because it was on a volcano city was also home to a lot of tourism, and some of that tourism was quite decadent when the eruption happened about twenty thousand people were either living in the area or visiting leading up to this though there had been some signs that maybe something was going. On. With volcano, there had been a significant earthquake about fifteen years before there had been some changes to the tides into the waves on the ocean, and then on August twenty, four, th of the year seventy nine, the eruption sent a massive plume of ash into the sky. This thing was so big that it could be seen for miles around people could see it from really far away was so huge though. They couldn't tell which mountain it was coming from as this ash cooled it started to fall on POMPEII and Herculaneum these other cities and it. I was just a really fine ashfall other material that was in there was mostly really light. It was things like pumice. So it wasn't like giant hard heavy boulders hitting people people were frightened, but it wasn't deadly yet. So at first people tried to evacuate and A. Lot of them were successful. But by night, this ashfall became really dense and heavy, and what followed was a series of pyroclastic surges. This is when there's a giant surge of hot, often toxic gas and other material that ejects out from the volcano. What are these pyroclastic surges hit herculaneum killed anyone who was still there instantly either melting or vaporizing their flesh in both of these cities and the other communities that. Were nearby people died under the weight of the Ash. Some of them were crushed inside their homes as the rubes caved in where they died of suffocation or association outside. This is a huge tragedy anyone who hadn't been able to flee early enough died and the people who came back who tried to find their homes are their family members instead found a layer of ash so thick that there was nothing they. Could even get to you eventually though all of the rich volcanic soil attracted people back to the area again, people basically lived on top of these buried cities for about seventeen hundred years, and then in seventeen forty eight, the ruins of Pompeii were rediscovered an organized dig started one of the first to use more modern principles of archaeology. So this was still pretty primitive, but there was a more methodical excavation that. Followed a mapped out grid, but even with methodical digging wasn't necessarily being done totally for scientific study a lot of people who were involved. We're really trying to find a treasures take home for themselves archaeology at Pompeii and the surrounding cities has been ongoing for a lot of the years since then there have been some pauses things like world wars because homes were preserved because the burying the city was almost instantaneous. We get a huge sense of what life was like in ancient Rome. Thanks to how well preserved. So much of it is includes the buildings as includes the people who were in the buildings that includes a lot of graffiti. And nineteen ninety seven, it was named a UNESCO World Heritage site and the ongoing excavations continue to bring up interesting things and twenty eighteen one skeleton was found looked as though the person skull had been crushed by a massive piece of debris as they were trying to flee the Internet named these remains the world's unluckiest man. But as researchers looked into a little further, they discovered that his upper body had fallen into what tunnel that had been dug during those not quite as established archaeological dig times of the seventeen hundreds or. Eighteen hundreds probably this person died of asphyxiation while trying to escape like a lot of other people did a CBS though still an active volcano. Thanks to Terry Harrison for her audio skills on this podcast and you can learn more about Pompeii on the October nineteenth two, thousand, nine episode of stuff you missed in history class you can subscribe to this day in history class on apple podcasts, Google podcasts, and wherever else you get your podcasts and you can tune in tomorrow for a hoax that's pretty silly even as hoaxes go. GEICO's now offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies. That's fifteen percent on top of what Gyco could already save you. So what are you waiting for your dentist to actually believe you and your flashing every day? Absolutely great and you're cutting down your sweets of course. Wonderful. Then I don't even need to look in their great six months. There's never been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent. When you switch by October seventh limitations apply visit GEICO, dot com for details. Hey, guys, it's bobby bones host the bobby bones show and I'm pretty much obviously because I, wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple of hours later I get all my friends together. So we get into a room and we do a radio show. Wish you're alive. We tell our stories we try to find as much good in the. World possibly can, and we looked through the news of the day that you'll care about. Also your favorite country artists are always stopping by the hang out and share their lives and music too. So wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W M Z Q in Washington DC or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP. What's up everyone welcome to this day in history class where we bring you a new tidbit from history every day. The day, it was August twenty. Fourth Nineteen seventy-two. Dr Merlin K. Duval Assistant. Secretary of the US Department of Health Education and Welfare announced that there would be an investigation into the two skeet syphilis study. The tuskegee study of untreated syphilis in the Negro male as it was called began in nineteen thirty to. The US Health Service had joined with the to Ski Institute a Historically Black School in Alabama to study the natural history of syphilis. At the time syphilis and other sexually transmitted infections were a major issue in the US, large-scale efforts to fight S. T. is had been underway since World War one during which STI's Ti's were a common cause for disability and absence from duty in the army. But many people living in poverty in rural areas still did not have access to treatment. When they did have access to medicine, they were often not able to afford it. The Public Health Service and the Julius Rosenwasser Fund. A Philanthropic Foundation collaborated in treating people with syphilis in the South in the late nineteen twenty s and early nineteen. Thirties. But the Great Depression hit and in nineteen, thirty two, the fund pulled out of the treatment program which had expanded to five states. The Public Health Service did not have the resources to continue the program on its own. So instead of focusing on treatment, the P. H. S. decided to switch directions and studied the effects of untreated syphilis on living people. Black people were widely affected by syphilis and researchers were studying racial differences in the effects of STI. The P. H. turned to the institute known for his service in black communities for help in launching its new study in exchange, the P. H. S. paid Tuskegee trained. It's interns and employed. It's nurses. The P. H. S also worked with black community leaders to encourage participation in the study. Many people were willing to participate since they had no access to medical care otherwise on top of that participants got food and transportation and family members got burial stipends. In, the beginning six hundred black man worth signed up for the study, the hundred, ninety, nine with syphilis in two hundred and one who did not have syphilis. But the participants were not told that they had syphilis instead they were told that they had bad blood a catchall colloquialism that was used to describe several illnesses. The study was supposed to last six months. Study participants were monitored, but they were only given placebos like aspirin. That was even the case after the P.. H. S. began to give people with syphilis penicillin as treatment in nineteen forty-three, and after penicillin became the recommended treatment for syphilis in one, thousand, nine, hundred, forty, seven. The researchers wanted to track the full progression of syphilis. So they gave participants no effective care. Syphilis left untreated for years can spread to the brain or I and cause paralysis dementia blindness and even death. Still. Once local health departments began working with the S to track people who had left Making County Alabama. They to kept study participants from receiving treatment. But in the nineteen sixties phf employees Peter Buxton was an sti interviewer and investigator, and he found out about the ski study and raised concerns about its ethics. But the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention which controlled the study determined that the study needed to continue with the support of the American Medical Association and the National Medical Association. Officials wanted to see the study through until participants died and they analyzed the data they collected. So buxton leaked the story and in July of Nineteen, seventy-two Associated Press reporter Dean Heller broke the story. The next month it was announced that an ad hoc panel would investigate the study. The panel recommended ending Ski Experiment Immediately and on November Sixteenth Merlin all assistant secretary of Health and the US Department of Health Education and Welfare issued an administrative order shutting it down. By then twenty eight participants died from syphilis. One hundred others died from syphilis related complications. Forty spouses of participants had also been diagnosed with syphilis and the infection had been passed to nineteen children of the participants. In Nineteen seventy-three Senator Edward Kennedy held a congressional subcommittee meetings that resulted in new guidelines for working with human subjects and US government funded studies. That same year, a class action lawsuit was filed on behalf of the participants in their families. A ten million dollar out of court settlement was reached in nineteen, seventy four. The tuskegee health benefit program was created and began providing lifetime medical benefits and burial services to living participants to spouses of a living and deceased participants and to their children. The last study participant died in two thousand four. The unethical experiment ignited a deep distrust in public health institutions among black. Americans. I'm Eve Jeffcoat, and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. Keep up with us on twitter. INSTAGRAM FACEBOOK AT T H Z podcast. Thanks for joining me on this trip time. See you here and the exact same spot tomorrow. From our podcast from heart radio, visit the iheartradio APP, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, guys, it's bobby bones I host the bobby bones show and I'm pretty much always sleepy because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple of hours later I get all my friends together and we into a room and we do a radio show share our allies. We tell our stories we try to find as much good in the. World if he possibly can, and we looked through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country artists are always stopping by to hang out and share their lives and music too. So wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W. MC in Washington, DC or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio. APP.

syphilis POMPEII apple GEICO bobby bones oxy herculaneum tracy US US Department of Health Educat Washington Tuskegee Langston Carmen STI Mama. Public Health Service Rome twitter UNESCO World Heritage
Zeit Unseen 1/29: Syphilis, Shaun Weiss, Mini Mouse, Top Secret, Old Bay

The Daily Zeitgeist

10:05 min | 11 months ago

Zeit Unseen 1/29: Syphilis, Shaun Weiss, Mini Mouse, Top Secret, Old Bay

"In Our podcast hush money. We're going to get you talking. We'd be uncomfortable questions about money and then a celebrity judge joins us to decide. WHO's right? There's no such thing as free money. There are some archaic laws right. Now that it's traditions. That men should pay women will do the reach fake reach. You know money is one of those things that it people like to ignore. You can binge all the episodes now on apple podcasts. The iheartradio APP. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello the Internet and welcome to this. Episode of Zaid Unseen bought it sight unseen. That's right reading. Sure it was a title note glossing unseen. Yeah he never wanted to do something like that sight unseen. That's more like old prospectors turnpike right. It's a physical location. And you're saying up sight unseen amenities. I can't imagine something you by Zaid unseen that because there are pictures right. Oh Okay we have photographs of everything. Okay to be physically there. I don't know I think we're getting a little too granular. Yeah no that's what we're GonNa talk about today now. We're actually going to talk about things that are trending such as untreated syphilis. Oh by the way I'm Jack. That's that's miles. Yeah that's me Hey Untreated syphilis is gone because it's trending weirdly just for me not You know how Google knows you just put your auto you're looking for stuff on the UN auto fill untreated syphilis. Yeah as a matter of time before my secret was revealed. I was curious about the UN Cola. Right yeah so the I guess is the training because we put that into the Google Machine bunch pictures of Donald Trump. Come up Ha Ha we got him in your face face No Yeah I think some of the symptoms. People were speculating. Is this a read it push. I'm imagining it. Was it was on Google on Google trends No I'm seeing sometimes like. There's you know focused efforts on read it to basically get something to be the first result. Yeah I mean there is also. It's funny I don't know if they're air saying this in relation because what are some of the side effects of syphilis have to do with your memory yeah it can Fuck with your overall cognitive health. Right right because I know there is. There was an article that were like the dementia. Argument had come up again because apparently the president could not remember meeting with Mark Zuckerberg and it was like are you. You met with Mark Zuckerberg right No Yeah That's just because he has a day of like double Who does half the things for him while he's out golfing other pictures? That come up are a fucking rose when you look at Untreated syphilis so if any if we can do one service for you just just trust just that Read it has accomplished their goal pictures of Donald Trump do arise along with just just unpleasant pleasant things yeah Shaun Weiss is trending as well Shaun. Weiss was what was his name. Enberg Goldberg Mighty Doc who was the goalie? Yeah Yeah Big The the big boy from mighty ducks and he has since developed a dependency addiction problem and Now sometimes will make it get into headlines because he looks speaking of old prospector. Like he's GonNa Ma'am Yeah. It's tragic tragic this. This is the thing man you see with so many child actors and there's something man part of your soul can be taken from you when you're working like that right and you have all these weird pressures on you and who knows what kind of whatever your experiences within the entertainment industry at a young age And I remember there was a Mugshot. This is kind of been a really slow and tragic process where a few years ago. A mugshot came out and people were in disbelief. Of How much is condition at change. In what what he looked like and now like it. You know if I was like ASSHOLE early twenties kid like I used to be. I would be laughing my ass off looking right like this. I'm like Oh man whose do fell off and then it just it's looks. Tragedy was arrested in the reason. This is coming up because he was arrested for breaking into someone's garage while he was high on meth right. Yeah and I mean. He looked like very olden Maybe decades older than he should have looked a like a year ago. And it's it's your age. Yeah basically yeah. Yeah Yeah So Yeah Bummer to to bummer. Things up top Let's talk about Minnie mouse newlywed. Trending why you'd have many mouths unloads and I'm like what does that mean. Yeah so there's a video of a personal Oh shit yeah Minnie mouse whip somebody's. It's not clear to me what I don't think it's happening happening at Epcot or like this. I know this is in Vegas it looks like okay. Yeah so it's probably on a special Yes this is this. Is I think probably people who pose like in costume on the street to make you know they'd be like okay. Five Bucks get a photo of mini or spiderman. Yeah and and. I don't know what happened in this clip. But it just starts off with this woman's Minnie mouse. said she liked takes it off and just start pummeling this other woman and I don't know. Oh Oh it's a security guard. Yeah boy yeah it's an ass whooping it's a I mean. Yeah that's just a flash point of stress whereas I don't even know what is going woo it all and then the goofy guy took his head off to try and be peacemaker. Yeah Wow wow Yeah I guess I I would love to know what actually happened here. I wonder if it was one of those things where security guards hey stopped panhandling or whatever trying to make money out of here here and they said okay try and make me leave right. Oh boy yeah Top secret is trending because I guess the White House House reached out to John Bolton's people And said that he is re revealing top secret information in his book and must not publish Shit yes to reach out to the lawyers of the publishing house top secret. We call it the truth. Ray and yeah. The like after a review view under this letter is so under federal law and the nondisclosure agreements your client signed as a condition for gaining access to classified information the manuscript may not be he published or otherwise disclosed without the deletion of this classified information. Right so yes okay they really. They're really relaxed about this book coming. Yeah yeah everything is fine. It's it's I'm getting conflicting messages. Usually it's very consistent and from This this the White House but I I'm getting the message that Nothing he says is true so it doesn't matter the president isn't scared of him but then I'm also getting that he has top secret information in there that will bring down the nation. If it's revealed yeah yeah but it's funny because the parts that he's saying already out loud which are definitely. The top secret are very damning already ray a as we watch it all burn around us and finally old bay is training because because there's this old bay hot sauce. That's exciting so ready for this year. I believe it's taken them this long. I know that's yeah yeah. I wonder if they're dislike in the leadership the C. Suite over at Old Bay right there like you know what we stick to the dry seasonings right. You know if you WANNA YOU WANNA mess around with them. We're not interested in collaborations. I'm hoping in my mind. The young hip grandson has taken over. As you know we need. Boardroom is an old bay hot sauce then just oh I love all day. It's a Lotta people muttering under their breath. I've seen it as a cocktail glass rim accessory and a cocktail. I don't care what lookers in it because I just love the seasoning day And I'm sure the people of Maryland also very. Yeah it's very interesting. It's also limited addition so it seems like they're doing the Popeye's chicken sandwich vacation a testing. Do who loved to see a company like old big at this rate. All right guys That's GonNa do it for this afternoon. We'll see something in Portland and we'll be back tomorrow with another episode of the daily Zeitgeist. We'll talk. He goes then by all day. The future is closer than you think. And it all starts in the palm of your hand you may have heard the news. Five G. is coming in this new. My Heart series this time tomorrow presented by t mobile business join me off election and my cursed characterize as we will you through the true revolution immobility. That will change the way we interact with the world around us. Join US and here just how close we are getting to a more connected future. This time time tomorrow is now available on the iheartradio APP. Or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Google syphilis Donald Trump Minnie mouse. UN president Zaid Mark Zuckerberg Ray Shaun Weiss apple Old Bay Ha Ha US Enberg Goldberg t mobile Maryland White House House Portland White House
Sawbones: Fever

Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine

51:26 min | 1 year ago

Sawbones: Fever

"Saw bones is a show about medical history and nothing the hosts as should be taken as medical advice or opinion. It's fun. Can't you just have fun on for an hour and not try to diagnose your mystery boil. We think you've earned it. Just sit back. Relax and enjoy a moment of distraction from weird growth your worth. It is about the books <music> in your in your property pharmacy. Let's see what the south hello everybody and welcome to saw bones tour misguided medicine. I'm your co host justin mcelroy sydney maccarone <hes>. It's good to be back. It is good to be back feels like forever. Since we've recorded a real live episode episode of this podcast will not lie well. I mean it's recorded live. I guess you'll live like s._n._l. Is live sort of semillas life. What do you mean recorded boarded. Live like those musicals on fox live to tape the live to tape. Yes this is live to tape. We are not doing this live in your phone. I guess would be the or like streaming over the internet. I i think that's called streaming dreaming. The people do not live in the phone. I don't know her keeps getting this confused anyway misguide medicine <hes> we are here with you after some live episodes in some absences. I am sorry that we were gone. We did not want to be gone yeah. It's just life folks. Life finds a way you know it's like gold room. Says life finds way to kick in the pants every once in a while. I don't think that's not the quote. I had the lunchbox. Do not try to test me because you know. I love my gig. Trivia binga do not try to test me. I was always a more a bigger fan of the all you thought about was if you could. You didn't stop to think if you should that was always yeah our awesome man as well entire cannon. This is about a song bones in about medicine park jurassic ethic park anyway just in a lot of people have written to us through the years now yeah thirteenth six six year anniversary and and they've asked about this topic and i i don't know why we haven't covered it and it just kind of struck me that we should talk about fevers because fears are very common common and there i think still seen as scarier than they typically are like a fever itself not necessarily early. What's causing it but i i still think people tend to get pretty anxious when they are a loved. One has a fever about the fever part of you know what i'm does that. Is that fair to say right okay. I feel like i understand what a fever is. Okay and i'm not trying to give you my the best understanding of it. Okay okay so imagine the that that your body is sort of like <hes> like a den of thieves and murderers and bad people right and then your wight blood cells are like renegade cops right yeah. Renegade cops are like burdette dan dan with them inside and they flick the cigarette at your body and then walk away and they're like i want to burn this place down and kill the germs uh-huh are criminals in our case is my metaphor so we're gonna burn this building down to just take out all the germs and it's gonna be the building will be extremely uncomfortable and ryan gatorade but we are going to burgess building now to try to kill all the bad stuff that you know i see where you're going with. This is not a bad analogy. <hes> it's questionable. You're you're conflating. Both what a fever is an what why a fever occurs yes together and i am. Let's break those two down because what you said is true in a sense but there's there's. There's some parts of it that are debatable. Is that fair but you i mean. It was pretty g see. Maybe maybe it'd be minus. You know what i would have loved science growing up so that i will take it with pride so first of all what is a fever literally. Just all yeah very understand fever. E think your temperatures up your body hot so there's a part of your brain called the hypothalamus thelma's this kind of at the base of the brain and it's it has many jobs but one of its job is to act as like your body's thermostat right right so it's going to regulate your temperature richer and there are things called pirate jains which are these little substances that float around in your bloodstream and they can reach your hypothalamus and tell your hypothalamus thelma's. Hey turn the heat up. Let's make it hot in here. That's their job and they why would pirate do that well they. They are triggered by different things. <hes> the most common reason would be some sort of invader a virus bacteria fungus some sort of pathogens the gen that will trigger the release of these pirate jen's which will then go to your brain and say time to heat up crank it. We've got we got bad guys right <hes> <hes> they can be produced by from the body tissues for other reasons. The is not the only thing that triggers a fever fever doesn't always mean infection although it often does <hes> but then your body generates more heat and you get all the symptoms associated with the fever right like when you get a feel uncomfortable you get achey achey so you get chills that paradoxical thing you know somebody has a fever when it's like a comfortable room and they're covered in blankets and you you can get the shakes. We call them riders. That's like really intense shakes harshly you can get chills <hes> and <hes> and you feel really bad and sometimes sometimes you can act a little goofy. You know yeah yeah. I get tired. <hes> it children can get higher fevers and can get faster fever so it can be really disturbing when a kid gets a fever because it can seem to come out of nowhere. I fully remember a night at like two a._m. <hes> taking charlie like a two year old charlie like opening the door to the porch because she was so hot then we were just trying to do anything to cooler awful volvo and here's the thing as we tell the story i am going to tell you that i know i know in my doctor brain that that was unnecessary and i my hi dr brain at the time knew it was unnecessary. My my parrot brain did could not hear anything from my doctor brain at the moment now that my parrot brain was screaming your child so hot her brains going to boil. That's what happens happens but this is why you doctors don't treat their family the case study so you kind of alluded to the next part which is why do you get a fever. Why why why would this happen like what is the in. What is the why why would this. What does the application what is the purpose of a fever so partially to stimulate your immune response. There are different the factors in your body that respond to that change in temperature <hes> and to the pirates themselves to other factors that released because of the temperature and all that but the other part is that we think it is to make our body less hospitable for the invaders if because we know that heat it can kill some viruses and bacteria and so maybe if we're that was the that's the hypothesis right so if we he if our bodies heating up in an attempt to kill these invaders now this is still debatable though we're not one hundred percent sure that that's true because well because in a lot of cases you can heat at somebody up and it won't kill an infection you know if that were the case then a fever would kill off all the infections right right but they don't and we know i specifically for things like bacterial infections. We often need antibiotics to help out short you know because in the pre antibiotic era we go. We have lots of defense mechanisms. Was that are busted though it doesn't mean that it's like like what about the bugger thing like oh catch all the germs here with these little hairs nice try. You didn't get all of them. It didn't work. I still got sick. Well and maybe that's more the answer. It's more of it aids in the process and it also was a l- it was as helpful as as anything could get before before we had better things right these dumb things weren't meant to last as long as we've made them last these bodies. They're doing their best but there. I mean mitt mitt not mitt for a modern world that that's our brains are helping out you know by making medicine. I wish you could just tell her body like hey dumbed them. You don't need to get some hot. You're not doing anything. The scientists looked at it and you didn't kill anything. It didn't work bad bad dry frustrate. My body was now cool and killing germs and you're telling me he's doing nothing just like dude hoop the bills. I'm not saying that it doesn't do anything i'm not saying. It doesn't help at all. I'm just saying that obviously a fever in and of itself is not going to cure disease. I mean that yes <hes> now. What there was one interesting point. I found i was reading about like wider feverish and then if this is an because this really rocked my world because i always thought that too that was kind of honestly what i was told med school but if that's not the reason for a fever what is is one theory that i thought was really interesting is the idea that because of fever produces really obvious symptoms. Most people know when they're febrile have a fever. Most people feel it <hes> and it is something that another person can feel by simply by simply putting their hand on you. You can feel that someone's hot. That doesn't always mean that you know they have a fever but you can feel that they're hop because it is something that is so easy to recognize. It is a good way to communicate. This person is sick. Stay away from them. <hes> isolate them from the community. They might have an infection that is contagious so from an evolutionary perspective fevers are very useful because then you you know you stay away from the person. Is it possible that you're maybe it's partially also your body trying to get you to like chill out so it can fight infection like you don't feel like doing anything. She just lay down. Just please stop doing a bunch of stuff so we can do our jobs down here. I i mean i don't have any. I don't have any evidence that that's the jonah fighing white blood cells to have intent. I'm saying is true. Do you think it makes sense though i think that that's your ceiling hey slowed down but just take a break. You're not gonna grant me this because you make fun of me for resting when i'm sick and you never arrests when you're sick and you don't wanna let you wrestling biology. I'm like the girl from the ring. I never sleep just as the only way in which there from the rain and the calling backwards mop nothing from the ring at one point. I'd like to make briefly is it. A fever is a temperature of one hundred point four fahrenheit or greater a hundred point four four fahrenheit or greater. That's thirty eight degrees celsius. If that's your if that's your jam i'm gonna imagine that the thirty eight c. came first right yeah because it's like the i know such a nice round number thirty eight hundred point four hundred one for like is tough you don't have this took me so long. This is way after we got married before and finally learned that like i i guess i've always associated like if it's above ninety eight point six then the fever basically that's a fever. Your body temperature varies throughout the day. It is <hes> depending on the activities. You've done depend on the temperature of the room the ambient temperature. I mean if you're outside and it's really hot. If you've just had a meal he'll can vary throughout like an osceola 'tory cycle and a person who has obviously tori cycles. I mean like there are a lot of different reasons that your temperature varies so if you have a temperature of ninety nine you do not have a quote unquote low grade fever okay just just a little point there hundred point four greater now in we have obviously been having fevers since ancient times because yeah as far as i know humans have been having fevers as long as there have been humans <hes> but if you look back to like ancient greek and roman writings you don't see a lot of distinction between fever the symptom and the fever as in some sort of disease process because a lot of times <hes> disease that was causing a fever within the community something that would be like communicable like the flu going around or or in a lot of these cases. It was malaria larrea they would just say oh. It's the fever because people got a fever and it's contagious and we don't really know what it is and sometimes they'd say like the fever with a rash or the fever with you know the the red spots the fever with the sore throat fever with the headache like they'd kind of fever with a cough and all of these these were probably correlated with different infectious diseases that we would now test for or diagnose clinically or whatever but the fever and fever were used kind of interchangeably really so sometimes it's hard to tell what they're trying to like diagnose treat of fever or the fever <hes> they knew it was an elevated temperature aperture that weather talking about a fever or the fever either way. We're talking about something where you got hotter. The greek word pyrex zia which were there were fever pyrex. Yeah it the and the verb of it translates to. I am on fire interesting. <hes> pyrex is <hes> material used in a lot of baking stuff stuff. That is a heat proof glass barracks. It'd be good for being on fire wouldn't wouldn't because galen talks about a fever saying that basically you have an excess of heat and that was a lot of the early greek writers and then the roman writers talked about the idea that fever was this this excess heat that had accumulated in the body that comes from the heart and then is pumped out of the heart through the arteries and spreads throughout the body and it was really he's seen as like a substance of sorts like a whole other thing there was this there was this stuff that was heat and it was flowing through your body and we could tell because you're hot right <hes> there were certain connections that were drawn like hippocrates talked about if you have a lot of headaches a lot of fevers that keep coming with headaches <hes> <hes> then you probably gonna die so i don't know exactly maybe meningitis is what that was talking about but like you you can see riders connecting like this fever not so big a deal this fever. If you have this with it i mean. We don't know what it is but you're going to die. I think you're probably gonna buy is one that people should have leaned on a lot more in ancient times because if you think about like if you sell someone like oh that's about fever ear. There's two outcomes outcomes late one they die and then you're like got another one new call it or they come back. Head didn't in die think are multiple gods. What a gift. What a gift. What a gift man awesome awesome so glad to be wrong on this one anyway. They'll be sixty sixty druckman. That sounds like a good idea but i can tell you in practice i that would that is not something i would endorse. I can't imagine the fall out of me telling all my patients like well. This is probably fatal. No i mean by <hes> just stop at the desk for your bill <hes> so gaylon went on all the work of his predecessors to take all that and breakdown fevers into three main types so and this kind of got into like what they thought caused a fever cause a fever was not necessarily seen as like just a symptom that can be connected to a multitude of diseases says or processes right because that's what a fever is caused by one thing fevers caused by lots of different things to symptom <hes> but there there was a thought that a fever ver- wasn't it was a distinct thing in and of itself and that there could be certain types of them that occur independent of whatever might be going on in the body audie so there were ephemeral fevers which were like the no big deal fevers and this is probably like a fever that was caught in connection with something like a cold like viral illness and they they would say well. You have an ephemeral fever. I don't know what's going on with you but it's going to go away pretty quickly and you should be fine and that was probably right. <hes> there were also fevers that could be caused ause by a corruption of humors <hes> so you're humor's different ones can become like putrid and then they would cause fevers and so you get different fevers linked to different humor's you know becoming pewter go bad odors click on mm for podcast so she could click on podcast audio so you could click whenever we started talking about humor's and take them to five minute diversion about how humans are fake thing thing that are not real like probably gonna address these as if they're thing but the humor's method now greece many sums of madison throughout history believed that there were four humors in the human the body that you had to keep balanced in order to maintain health you know the black bile yellow bile listener but if you're new to the show you should know that humor is our nothing. This is not the thing i mean we do have blood. We do have flown. We do have bio but this is not what okay so three out of four a._b._c.'s moral system make it a company name stayed all of everything else i was wrong <hes> and then there are also hectic fevers which were the worst the most unpredictable the most dangerous fevers and all of these things we could probably go back and look at descriptions is and link each case too. What was the likely you know was. The smallpox was this malaria. Was this typhoid what what was going on. We can probably do that now. In retrospect act <hes> later avezzano would build on a lot of this work and correctly say listen <hes> all this humor stuff is wrong. He identified infection is probably the main thing that's happening behind these fevers all of these <hes> fever curves and everything this is nice like oh you have fever every third a day for day whatever that's cool but it's probably from an infection <hes> as far as what people did about feverish well a lot of what was done is a lot of what we talk about when we get into hugh moral medicine the humor system of madison which again is fake. Will you just balance your humor with you know letting <music> some of one out or trying to put more of one in so bloodletting like leaching and cutting open a vein and bleeding people very common medics things to make you puke laxatives tips to make you poop diuretics to make p <hes> just something to get a humor out depending on what type of fee for fever it was considered would be the most common <hes> target especially especially bleeding a person bleeding a person because blood was thought to be hot and so hot blood get what i get the blood out to bleeding most common now i always like to see what plenty of the elder has to say about things plenty our old buddy plenty always writes extensively about everything ever anywhere and there was a <hes> a roman win goddess of fever febrise and you could make offerings and create amulets in february name to protect you from fever and so as a result plenty documents a whole lot of things that you could do <hes> because he says basically doctors can't do anything so amulets or your best bet. You're you're gonna wanna go ambulance help you but you are you should go the amulet so so for so here's an example the dust in which a hawk has bathed itself can be tied up in linen cloth with a red string and attached to the body do that just find the dust in which a hawk has bathed perfect. I know lots of hawks around you could take the longest tooth of a black dog where it as an amulet best of luck the unhappy dog <hes> you can also the first wasp that you see in the current year. I'll never find that again. If you can catch it remember it was may thirteenth. You need to catch it though with your left hand and you can buy it below your chin when he had an out so i assume you wanna dead i because i mean it's a loss <hes> that plenty you knew that was was be cut off a viper's. There's head rapid in a linen cloth. <hes> you could also take the vipers heart. I mean you've got the viper right. You've already head off you might as well take its heart to <hes> eager. Wrap that and let 'em cloth. I guess <hes> you can also take the tips of mouses ears and wrap. Does it's all red cloth. The red cloth seems to be big. Just the renshaw red claw. These are all amulets you could you could create. Do you think i have a question for you he he he it does say to swallow a few things like the heart of sea diver so there are some things as a kind of bird but that's yeah it's kind of bird. Shocker occur stays heart. I messed up the garden but i'm in jail. <hes> can add some pepper they had. 'em so hard not to say emily at. Do you think that's what child says. She's ruined pronunciation for so many words like angry at or regular regular okay. Do you think an amulet amulet emulate rentals. Do you think they did rental. I guarantee there are people who sold amulets not sold a rant rental now that i don't know but i guarantee he they so don't need them. After you got better so i would see it would ward it off to these would also ward off fevers. Might i'm not gonna wear all always worth pound care yeah but thirty amulets is a pound so that's <hes> that's hanging around my neck now. I've got now got some lower back issues because i'm wearing all these ding dang ambulance. I'm just saying that once. You've taken the time to cut the head off viper and all that like you're not gonna wanna get rid of that gap. It's you're going to loan it to your friend jared era for cash. Maybe i just think they had a brisk amulet rental business. He does advise some things you can take <hes> like prophylactic prophylactically <hes> like swallows deng with some goats milk and raisin wine and do what with new the drinking okay and that's like a fever prevention also the skin of an asp pruitt engine. That's so wild that i'm going to drink swallows closed done because i don't want to get a fever haley. I don't care how little they understood what medicine they have to know that makes no sense. You have to understand even though fevers are still scary to people today and they were a heck of a lot scarier back when a fever mitt well. You might just die now now. We have no idea what's happening. We have no idea how to fix it. Good luck so it makes more sense in that context now just an i've been talking about how to fix a fever but i want to talk about what fever can fix okay. Stu it the first off. Let's go to the billing department. I bought so this week is casper. We have a beautiful derek luxurious casper mattress that we that we enjoy <hes> <hes> it is one of the best night's sleep. You're gonna get one of the best in the business. I think in terms of night's sleep <hes> that you're gonna get. It's a very very comfortable. Matt is a very comfortable mattress. You know they they revolutionize the mattress industry but making it easier than ever to buy a premium foam mattress now either building on that legacy with are you ready for it. The hybrid collection foam layers now available with springs springs too long lived in a world with no springs and now your sleep is going to be augmented by those great coils that we all crave. I'm telling you folks. This is a game changer if the game is sleeping because these they got springs down all right. I don't think i need to tell you you're looking for support. You're looking for coils. You're looking for foam. You can't find all those the one mattress now you can even hybrid even as a person <hes> as a person who doesn't sleep myself as already referenced. I can't cut an even though i still i am. I can see the lower are and i am excited for all the human do need sleep. You can get fifty dollars towards select mattresses by visiting casper dot com slash saw bones and using saw bones at checkout folks. It's time to go to bed. It's going to be the best part of your day. Go to casper dot com slash saw bones and use the code saw bones at checkout checkout. Get fifty dollars towards select mattresses terms conditions apply. We also have stitch fix sydney. Would you like to tell people about sich fix. Are you wearing statistics right now. I'm wearing stitch fix. I am wearing two of the three items. I'm wearing our from stitch fix heavy like that. I like it a lot and that is great. Oh well thank you to everybody has their own style <hes> and it can be hard to like find all the pieces that fit your style and to define your style well. I know that <hes> the style. I i wanted to go for was <hes> helen hunt from twister and that you know can seem like a strange thing to share with a stranger but i don't feel that way. It was stitched fixed because you can tell your expert stylists stitch fix you wanna look like <hes> like how from twister or laura dern from drastic park. It's the same thing and they don't judge you and they will help you achieve that look in spades. <hes> it's an online personal styling service. You can get your favorite clothing. Brands delivered livered right to your door <hes> and you keep what you like. You send back what you don't and your stylus really gets to know. You and i can't tell you how many times i have kept every every single piece of clothing i have been they've also got shoes and accessories and all that kind of stuff too but it's a wonderful experience <hes>. It's lovely we we did they. It's very convenient. They just send the package because you don't want in there and then you send it back to them but lots of times though we're we're since wanted to everything. I've wanted to keep everything. It's really <hes> there's tiles are super talented. There is a problem though when you put the package outside to go out with the male are last-ditch fix put out there. There was like one or two things back and we left the package our doorstep no fewer than three people who are visiting us thought. They were doing us a solid by bringing this package back inside the house. You've got a package out here. I don't don't shakes please. I'm trying to get this to us. Ditch magli bringing in our home so get started today. Stitch fix dot com slash saban and get an extra twenty five percent off when you keep everything in your box that sticks fitch dot com slash sol bones sticking fix excuse district switch smoking stitch stitch fix dot com slash saw bones <hes> sydney. You had teased a little better. You're gonna tell me about what fevers can do right eight. Yes okay so because we have had this concept that fevers are intentional our bodies attempt to kill an invading organism because we've had this idea for a long time a lot of doctors and people who weren't really doctors practice medicine throughout history from ancient times tmz have theorized that you could use a fever to fix disease if you could make fevers happen then you could cure diseases uses as well <hes> and this is caparo therapy. It's using a fever to treat things. I have found the quote well. It's been paraphrased. I don't know what the the exact quote is supposed to be but basically it's if i could produce as well as treat intermittent fevers i would be the greatest physician of all time <hes> and it has been attributed to i found it in several different articles and everyone it said as hippocrates once said as disparities once said as more hall once said i don't know who said it maybe all of them but the idea that that the fever was so important that we just need to learn how to harness its power. The power of the fever to treat treat disease is is pretty pervasive. <hes> hippocrates was one of the first to propose that <hes> if we could he observed a patient agent who had epilepsy greatly improve after about of malaria and he was one of the first ones to say man. If there was a way we could just do that anything with epilepsy galaxy not that i'm aware of no <hes> gaylon wrote about a case of melancholia which was probably depression is what we probably would have said now. Melancholy is what they say <hes> that was greatly improved after they had some sort of illness that included a fever <hes> there were <hes> a a lot of ideas about this but nobody actually tried it until the eighteenth century and that's when you first start to read some light case reports of <hes> people with usually some sort of psychiatric illness it was really focused on that and epilepsy cases were included as well because it used to be thought of as a psychiatric illness <hes> epilepsy epilepsy and then different forms of depression or anxiety or schizophrenia bipolar disorder. Those sorts of things were attempted to be treated by wrapping people really warm blankets and elevating their temperatures or putting them in a really hot bath. There were some scattered reports of like actually actually infecting people with things like e. Coli was used in one case kosh. Give someone e-coli so that they get a fever in response to that to try right a cure what whatever illness they had but nobody was really doing it. Routinely or any sort of lake controlled scientific nick experimental world yeah just like i don't know i read about this pocket tees or bore hav. Maybe somebody said it so you've been in science so in the twentieth century is when we really start to see people trying out pyro therapy for real and this can mainly be credited to an austrian psychiatrist tryst euless wagner von your egg who <hes> in one thousand nine hundred seventeen quota name. Yes announced the discovery of malaria malaria fever therapy <hes> as as a cure specifically for what was called the general paralysis of the insane g._p. I is what they call that let but what this really was was late stage syphilis tertiary syphilis <hes> because late late stages of syphilis the little spire keats the little little bugs get in the brain rain and you can begin to manifest psychiatric symptoms neurological symptoms and things like that but of course at this point in history. Nobody really knew that it was late stage syphilis <hes> there's a lot of debate about how to treat it because no one knew what caused it and so it really fell to psychiatrists to manage it even though as we would eventually discover i think it was around nineteen thirteen that syphilis was the cause and this was actually an infectious disease that need to be treated as opposed to a psychiatric illness that was managed differently <hes> so <hes> your egg was one one of the was a psychiatrist and so he was interested in in ways to treat g._p._a. I in in new methods since nothing so far had been very very effective <hes> and he observed at one of his patients <hes> hilda who was inpatient at the at the hospital in the psychiatric gastric unit <hes> recovered after an attack of era civilised so some so strep infection the patient had a strep infection action had high fevers got better and he also noticed that a lot of the psychiatric symptoms that she was manifesting also improved after she recovered from her fever and so his theory was while the heat of the fever must have killed whatever was causing this <hes> so he he he decided the best way to mimic this is to give patients the same thing that the patient had that hilda had in order to you treat their g._p._a. So that was the first thing he tried. He actually gave patients. Water had strep bacteria streptococcal bacteria in it similar to what would cost strep throat wrote he he basically gave patients strep throat and i'm i'm gonna go ahead and assume that was terrifically effective and that is why we still give ourselves servicer at all the time to this day. Whenever ever we catch a stray syphilis. I know it was it was not it was not particularly effective exact. I guess at giving people strep throat. It was prob <hes> probably effective if that was your a couple days off school you and miss a field trip. You want a good excuse to eat some nichols. He's got you so he so so. He tried that that didn't work very well. So then he tried to burke ulan. <hes> and tuberculosis is derived from tuberculosis <hes> from toxin oxen and it it actually is like used to make the vaccine against burke uses which we don't use in the u._s. but these other places and <hes> there was a lot of research research being done on to brooklyn at the time and a lot of thought that it could be used in good other good medical applications turkey and sounds like the worst artificial sweetener of all time time now made with tuberculin never ever if you see that don't don't don't buy anything with berkeley and folks. It's delicious yes. Yes we know so he so he started treating patients with the berkeley and actually published a series of papers based on this indicating some success that he you did notice some improvement in his patients with g._p._a. Which as as we're doing these different studies <hes> these occur over the course for many years by the way like his first idea that fear of therapy could be used for g._p._a. <hes> he he doesn't do anything with it for like five or six six years and then he starts doing some of these studies and he stops for a while when they don't work very well and then he tries him again so this whole course takes place over many years and during the course of all these different studies is his win. They actually figure out that syphilis is the cause of g._p._a. They still don't know how to treat it right but they ha- they have by now figured out that syphilis as the cause <hes> but so he's is using the tuberculin and he's doing the fevers and some of his patients seemed to be recovering from the syphilis tertiary syphilis g._p._s. he even wrote that one of the patients that he treated with to berkeley and the next day <hes> her family came to visit her and her sister came up to him and said what have you done with my sister. She has suddenly become intelligent mississippi brian. If i've ever heard one that's very just within earshot of it just like just barely within hearing range. She's like hey hey. Did you say that about me. I mean mr misheard. I didn't say anything philis philis so but the problem was even though he was having some some success with this debris or so his research indicated the there was a lot of argument in the medical community at this time as to the toxicity of berlin and there were a lot of people saying that it could do things that couldn't do and a lot of people who were so concerned that we should just stay away from it altogether so it was kind of a controversial thing to be using and not and he he really didn't want to be associated with all of that argument at that moment to live in peace and give fevers malaria wants to hey. We're not there yet. He's not even a malaria. It just wants to give them fevers. <hes> and he also wasn't completely satisfied with the results because a a lot of his patients would relapse later so they would seem to get better for a while but then they would revert to the symptoms of tertiary syphilis again and so he started looking for other other sources of infection to cause the fever other ways that he could trigger a fever and patient it was around this time that a mass <hes> soldier her who had been at the macedonian front came was admitted to the hospital for some injuries and he also happened to have malaria and your i noticed this and before he could be treated he he kind of told the other doctors weighed in and don't treat as malaria just yet admiral quick. Let me let me get it that malaria blood i need. I need some of that malaria blood so we went and he took a sample of the soldiers blood <hes> and he injected it into several of his patients who had the g._p. Who had the tertiary syphilis <hes> and then after he did that he got worried wife wife for the obvious reasons not for the obvious reasons he may have history does not say whether or not he was worried about that but we do know that he was worried read that perhaps he could cause an outbreak of malaria if there was an awful lease mosquito hanging around because that's the way malaria spread it's mosquito spreads it person to person not directly from person to person than people he didn't want to definitely give malaria to get malaria and then and then everybody would be a your egg egg. You give everybody malaria. All our syphilis is great though but now malaria so he started to get worried about that so he and went and he got one of his other patients is what does the what's documented. He got another one of his patients and said hey. I want you to go outside and catch as many the bugs you can just whatever bugs just catch some bugs and bring them back to me. You know it's okay if they're dead. I just need to see a patient was being treated for terminal normal gullibility very sad. It'd be misused in this way. The beijing sign caught a bunch of bugs brought them back to dr your egg and and gave them to him and he examined the mall and decided none of these are the anopheles mosquito. Which is the mosquito that has you have to have that mosquito to get the kip carry the malaria so he said none of these are the anopheles mosquito uh-huh so good small sample so my patient has captured of bugs. I picture this in the middle of the night like poor guy running around catching bugs anyway anyway so he was happy they weren't and so he wasn't gonna cause an outbreak of malaria so he he he followed the patients that he treated and he found that several of of them seem to get better. The syphilis symptoms seemed to resolve or at least improved greatly <hes> and so based on these results. He continued these experiments. It's in and he many published a whole series of cases every time we'd get more patients than he had to have somebody nearby on malaria right have access to a malaria patient which wasn't terribly ably hard at the time but he would go get blood from someone who had malaria and then injected into the new patients he had and <hes> and what he found at the end of it all with all the different cases treated many patients this way is that <hes> it offered about a thirty percent chance of complete remission pretty good converter. A lot of patients still did relapse. Some of them never improved completely and unfortunately also about thirty percent died of malaria area right because it's so bad yes because malaria especially there wasn't always control for which type of malaria and sometimes they'd get it wrong. They thought a patient had one type and and they really had a different type of malaria and some of them are more aggressive than others or more fatal chill. Malaria may have that really bad stuff. They just want to the fund malaria and it was hilarious serious malaria. Why would you need to get out of a field trapper. You dream circles that malaria so he <hes> he continued to do these these treatments and as he published results it became <hes> so interesting to the rest of medical community that a lot of other people started following suit and and they tried other types of fevers. They <hes> tried something herat by fever. There was a an african relapsing fever all kinds of things that we probably would identify different names today but basically let's let's give our patients something to make them sick and then get a fever and then maybe it'll cure their tertiary syphilis <hes> in some places instead of giving them inoculations of blood from other patients they would actually like get mosquitoes does that carry malaria and like capture them and just put them on the patient like put like a little cup or something over it so it had to sit on your arm until it home plate you home pleasant. It's also kind of exploitative for the mosquito right. What do you want me to just perform on command. I'm not a robot. I e on hungary. Maybe a little while by this dude but gimme a sec. You know they've done this. I may have mentioned this in our malaria upset but they've done this in places to look like the density of like mosquitos in an area like they'll have people just sit out and get bitten and count how many mosquito bites they get period of time tonight work if you can get it but <hes> i love science <hes> but anyway for all of this work and then all the people who followed in his footsteps zia he won the nobel prize for medicine for the discovery of malaria therapy for tertiary listen 1927 voice and this was this was used for quite a while eventually they they started creating something called fever machines. That's a good. I got a bad name rank. I i don't know i don't know it's a good name. Definitely definitely a more exposure. It's a it's a good name. They start getting these fever machines or fever cabinets <hes> and they use this technology based on all tra- sounds to like heat up these big. They look kind of like iron lungs. It's like a big thing you lay in like your head sticks out and they get they make you really hot. They induce a temperature of one hundred and four and four hundred and five they want to get you really hot like a very serious fever <hes> to to treat at the time it could be any kind of infection like it was tertiary syphilis but they tried it for other infections that were resistant to any other treatment <hes> they tried it for cancer when we can diagnose but had no idea what to do with cancer. They started using this kind of treatment for cancer. <hes> you can find a lot of cool pictures of this online. If you're interested i would recommend google. Oh it is cool sittard either call. I ever gonna think they're cool. They also do this and that showed the nick. The they cure a case of tertiary souflias john hodgman's the neck they cure case of syphilis with a fever cap and i remember thinking like no way but you know the thing is there's enough data to say there may have been some people who went into remission from this from this therapy <hes> from heating people up <hes> it is possible bull that this did work somewhat sometimes <hes> obviously it wasn't an ideal treatment <hes> and fell out of favor for multiple reasons and this was used. I should say this was was used standardly until like the fifties but of course antibiotics came around in the forties and that would that would be the death knell for a lot of <hes> interesting justin but ineffective treatments actions so with the rise of antibiotics. We had a much safer. Orioles antibiotics much safer much more effective treatment for syphilis. <hes> you know also we you know consider giving patients infectious diseases intentionally <hes> unethical ethical grab so we would not give a patient malaria today and it's and it's an interesting conversation because he did i mean his justification is what a lot of bad science is based don well. We don't have anything else and you're gonna die of this so i might as well try this and that's i mean that's unethical. There's a reason we don't we don't do that. That's not good enough for sure. I are b- approval you gotta do better. You can't just say well. We don't have anything else to try it <hes> but this came out of the heroic era of medicine so when everything was a little higgledy-piggledy legal the penalty i mean it was just like i have no idea what i'm doing but i'm dr so let's go look at this cool mirror. My head come on. I'm gonna give have you malaria now. So obviously we don't do this anymore. <hes> there is some interest in like the concept of elevating the body temperature richer to help alongside other treatments for infections or for cancer. I saw that there's some of that research that's been done but none of this is like standard right now. So if anybody's offering you fever therapy for your cancer fever therapy for an infection i would raise an eyebrow at that. That's not real because i mean this is all just an interesting area of research and it would all be used in conjunction with real monreale madison antibiotics or chemotherapy or whatever the these these are the ways in which this research is being done but nobody is advocating to give people malaria or any other infection. <hes> please don't do that <hes> but generally speaking fever fever. I think this is one important point to make about fever. It has been scary throughout history because a lot of times people got fevers and died and we had no idea why and there was nothing we could do right. We have many many treatments. Now i still think fevers are kind of scary. <hes> fritzy for your parent yes especially in kids they can be they can make you feel really helpless and it can be really scary but it is important to know that the fever in and of itself is generally harmless to your body audie <hes> obviously very high temperatures or sustained fevers. You know if you're getting temperatures up over one zero three. I i would be concerned about that. <hes> there are things like febrile seizures like a seizure associated with a fever usually happen in children and they can be quite upsetting although generally they are harmless. They can very scary <hes> and things like that. I would get evaluated for of course you're going to anyway <hes> but fevers that you don't know where they're coming from or whatever but but a lot out of the time this idea i see a lot of people like we've got to get you on the cycle of tylenol and then ibuprofen tylenol an ivy proven in an ice you down and do a cold bath and <hes> all this stuff to like fight a fever and we've been those parents. You really don't have to do that. The vast majority of the time treating fever can make you feel oh better and that's worthwhile. I'm not saying it's not but you don't have to you. Don't have to most of the time it's not. It's not necessary. It's gonna it's you need to address the underlying cause and once the underlying cause is either being treated or in a lot of things like the common cold allowed to run its of course. You don't necessarily have to do anything about the fever so so. I think that that's that's useful to remember <hes> <hes> folks. Thank you so much for listening to our program to play us out <hes> this week from their two thousand and eleven album living in oblivion. This is the fever machine so sadly. The band name is taken heartbreaking. We wanna thank the maximum fun network for having us as this is pretty intense for our show actually turn around women that were forever guesses bar their extended podcast casting family. Thank you to the tax payers these medicines the intro and altro of our program and <hes> thank thank you to oh wanna mention before i thank you anybody else. I wanna thank you in advance for heading over to maccarone merch dot com and checking out our new <hes> auburn's could use this pin <hes> it's kind of based on our logo and it's neat if you wanted to pick one of those up that's new this month <hes> <hes> ago check that totally out. There's a couple other pins and some of the stuff there too and <hes>. I don't think we gotta plug anything else. This week said we got a book this book. It's on on amazon or bookstores. You can go buy it if you'll be so kind but that is going to do it for us. I believe so yeah so next week. My name is justin. Macaroni and sydney macaroni always always don't drill a hole in your head and <music> maximum fund dot org comedy and culture artists. Don't audience supported. I'm riley smell. I'm sydney mcelroy and i'm taylor smell and together. We hosa podcast called still buffering where we answer questions like why should i not. I fall asleep. I did a slumber party. How do i be fleet. Is it okay to break up with someone using emojis and sometimes we talk about no we don't know they find out the answers to these important questions and many more on still buffering a sisters guide to teens through the ages. I am a teenager and and i was to butts but spot spots.

fevers malaria syphilis relapsing fever justin mcelroy sydney typhoid syphilis laura dern mitt jen charlie galen smallpox Head thelma dan dan beijing tori hungary
Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Treatment by Autopsy | 2

American Scandal

46:43 min | 1 year ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Treatment by Autopsy | 2

"Charles Pollard isn't used to government doctors. He's not used to doctors, period, no one here is black people in making county, Alabama, which is most people here. They just don't have the money if you think you might die. Sure, you try and find a dodger, which sort of that you figure it out yourself. That's why day in late October nineteen thirty two Pollard is shocked by the sign. He sees outside the school house not far from his family form. The words suggests that times are changing the finally maybe somewhere out there cares about what's going on. And making the sign reads free blood test free treatment by county, health department, and government doctors may feel well and still have bad blood come and bring all your family. Pollard is twenty six feels perfectly fine. But bad blood he's never thought of that. What if there is something wrong, it's best to get checked out? So when he gets to the schoolhouse, he joins a line of local. People already waiting there. Mostly men like him farmers in the work shirts, and overalls, though, there are a few women too. They file into the building one after the other when it's powers turn the white doctor, he meets his friendly enough even asks if the needle stuck in his arm for the blood test hurts. It feels fine. That's good, Mr. Pollard. Very good. Are you married? Sure, Mary, do you work. Of course. I do got a farm where I live out. Notice Alba cow core. You've got one of those mechanical cotton, picking machines. We're probably the first all done. Thank you, Mr. Pollard. You can roll you sleep back down. Well, we'll actually doctor. I got a question for you. Okay. While waiting I saw a woman in bed back coughing, couldn't make a move out earning. I saw her come out later. Before she said the doctor told her shoes, fine, not sick. Just just I see. So I guess I'm just wondering what kind of doctor's office, this is she didn't get no blood test? Well, her doctor could probably tell them whatever. That woman had it wasn't bad. What does that mean though? Well, the commute a lot of things, but mainly means this, if we find out, you have it, we've got to bring you in, you'll be notify male have a nice day. Mr. Pala, Pollard, rises and says goodbye. He's got a funny feeling and it lingers has, has back home and blood. The doctor didn't exactly answer his question. But maybe that's just how doctors are. They know a lot of things that other people Don s just trust them. Charles Pollard doesn't know that the government doctors aren't here to treat anyone there here, hunting for tests subjects black men like him in a few days, government doctor will contact him tell him to come back to the clinic Pollard's tested positive for bat Ludd. It will be forty years before he finds out he was lied to forty years before he learns that he really was sick. What no one tried to cure him. 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They were curious to see what happened when the potentially deadly disease, ran its full course and eager to document the unique ways it would ravage the black male body. And so they let the studies test subjects go untreated, seeing their suffering, and eventual deaths as necessary sacrifices on the March towards scientific progress this episode to treatment by autopsy. It's early November nineteen thirty two and it's pouring outside Dr Raymond von Blair can't stand this weather in his lab at the Tuskegee institute, he stares at the neatly sort of files of black men's blood and realizes. He has a problem when Dr Oliver see winger opened the treatment and diagnostic centers last month. The blacks came hundreds of them from shorter heroin, notice, Olga fonder. There had been impressed Wang are clearly knew what he was doing when the men came he and the other doctors listened patiently as they described their elements that gave advice and medicine where they could. But their main goal was to defy men with syphilis who are at least twenty five years. Minor had told von delete that they lowered the age from thirty because the pool of subjects with so much bigger once they had their men. They hired von delay or to run the field study of the untreated disease when he first got the call fondle was elated. He felt like his whole. Oh career had been leading to this moment. He's a graduate of the university of Virginia school of medicine in a native of that state, and he's been with PHS for seven years, Dr taller for Clark and Dr Wenger picked him because he taught civilized at the Medical College of Julia, plus he'd studied cardiovascular syphilis, under some, the finest instructors in Europe vonda layer knows this made him the perfect candidate. Dr Clark is extremely curious. To learn more about how the late stage symptoms affect negroes and Bangalore shares curiosity. What if the blacks won't cooperate then bond layer and Clark don't have a study? This is what has them worried now as he sits in his lab with that damnable rain threatening to cave in the roof. He begins a letter to his boss. He tells Clark that he now has samples from three hundred patients and that's a good start. But vonda layer adds we are now wondering what will happen next when we tried to get the negroes infra study at the institute hospital days later, he receives Dr Clark's reply he seems just as. Purpose, telling vonda Lear. He's also worried that the men won't agree to physicals. But amazingly, they do none of the local test subjects, the anything wrong with being physically examined. They seem excited. Even pleased to be getting medical attention von layer, a lifetime southerner, kick himself, or wasting all that time worrying he should've known better these people understand who's in charge. After the initial blood tests, vonda layer brings in the positives for a second test just to confirm after that, he Woodall's the pool down further excluding any man who's been infected for less than five years or treated for syphilis in the past. It's easy to find the people. He wants having a friendly young black nurse like Eunice rivers doesn't hurt vonda layer has her working fourteen hours a day when she's not driving the potential test subjects to and from the hospital. She's helping with the physical exams boiling in Washington engines, making sure all the supplies or an order vonda layers, greatly appreciative. And so is Charles Pollard. Pollens day starts early with Dr from his farm to the schemes to a rough ride nurse. Rivers coop. Doesn't have rumble seats in the rain has made making counties. Dirt roads money hard in a newer, but even though Pollard's nearly sick to his stomach from the ride now that he's in the ski waiting room. He starting to feel better about this treatment program, he and Nerf rivers had a lot of time to chat, and she's a sure it him that the white government doctors are here to help any question at all. He can ask her Pollard likes that she brings over a smiling white man in lab coat. This must be the doctor he reaches out to shake Pollard's hand. Good morning, Mr. Pollard. I'm Dr von der if all me, please, we'll get your examination underway. So feeling. Okay. Mister feeling fine. Thank you. Well, that's great. I suppose we should get started. North rivers nonce to the doctor and quietly shuts the door on her way out of the examination room. Now, Mr. Pollard, don't want you worry about the diagnosis. Just be glad we caught it in time. Never felt like anything was wrong with me course see what I got down. There doesn't bother me. Totally understand on this pollen, totally understand. Now, if you remove your pants and underwear. Yes. Yes. How long have you had these source? Five or six years, I'd say. Onto layer jots down some notes when he doesn't say anything. More Pollard, ask the obvious question like Essent, Dr sores never bothered me. Do you know what they are? Do I need medicine the doctor places his pen, down on his notepad looks up slowly at Pollard and smiles, no medicine needed? Mr pollard. Charlie? Please charlie. I don't want you to be concerned, your lesions nothing more than a complication band. Blood Pollard is relieved there still something bothering him. And what is banned? No one hears told me. Well, it's, it's too complicated to explain really. You're better off not worrying about such things. But the important thing is you're here. And from now on. We'll take care of you. We'll just keep an eye on that bad blood of yours who will do what we can help bond layer beams at him, Charlie. Do you understand how lucky you are lucky? Yes. You and your friends here, you're the luckiest negroes in America. In the coming days. Vonda layer starts feeling decidedly on lucky though, just over four hundred men had been selected for the program so far but analysis of their blood has led to disheartening results. He'd hoped to find Theresa's the stage where syphilis affects the brain leading to madness paralysis. None of these blacks are showing that obvious signs. It's very disappointing. He's never had the chance to watch Paribas developed in. It's been looking forward to it wanted to record the facts. But now it looks like he may not get the chance, which is a shame really where he wants against its downs lab and writes, Dr Clark. I'm aware of the great difficulty offered in recognizing the early subjective symptoms of police in the negro, but it seems unusual that I have failed to recognize a single early case of Paribas with subjective symptoms. In the two hundred odd cases, examined, Dr Clark's response rise, the following week and lifts funded layer. It's somewhat. He tells von delay or not to blame himself. It's to be expected, after all the test, subjects are low class blacks, so it will be harder to distinguish between madness and simple, ignorance, Clark writes, I quite agree with you, as to the hopelessness of recognizing mild, Paribas among these illiterate, people of such circumscribed cultural horizon. I'm hopeful that the spinal fluid examinations. May throw some light on this question. The following day. Dr von layer makes an announcement to his staff at the to ski he institute, they're going to begin doing spinal fluid, examinations. Also known as lumbar punctures or spinal taps, the staff, murmurs and surprise von layer had hoped to delay. This procedure until six to eight months from now when the project is scheduled to wrap up, but the search for Paribas demands the work begin now spinal fluid analysis will do what clinical observation cannot reveal what's truly going on inside the brain. He tells his staff, it will likely be unpleasant, work for them, and certainly for the patients seeing he has their attention. Von der goes into detail. He reminds them that having fluid drawn from one spine is extremely painful. No matter. How careful the doctors from the doctor must always be careful if the needle is inserted even slightly off the Mark. The patient may suffer permanent paralysis. Even if no mistake is made. A large number of patients will likely report, intense headaches coupled with stiffness or numbness in the neck arms and legs following the procedure. Our goal is to avoid the worst case scenario bundler tells us staff. These men must not be permanently damaged. These men are all volunteers and must remain volunteers bundler. Thanks. They need to be confident that the doctors are doing all they can to cure them of bad blood confident and cooperative. If someone ends up crippled, or in debilitating pain for weeks word will spread and the test subjects withdraw. It's a dilemma, but vonda layers found a way around it. The solution is to lie to the men about the risks and crosses fingers that none of them suffer serious injury, individual patients would be told they're coming in for an examination once they're in the door. They'll be told getting a spinal shot not a lumbar puncture or spinal tap, but a simple therapeutic shot bond layers, proud of the phrasing, the men are already. A used to getting shots to make their bad blood better. So news of another one shouldn't scare them. He's also decided that after the puncture, they'll remain at to ski overnight, so the doctors can watch for negative side effects on the layer tells his team that they'll be performing twenty spinal taps everyday in another letter vonda layers completely honest with Dr Clark about the riske's taking when Clark replies. He isn't the least bit concerned doesn't think the test subjects will cause any trouble as he puts it. These negroes are very ignorant and easily influenced by things that would be of minor significance in a more intelligent group. So with the blessing of his superiors Vondra layer, composes another letter this time to his test subjects. He makes sure the document looks as official as a piece of paper possibly can listing out every organization that signed onto the project. The letter had reads Macon county, health department, Alabama state board of health and US public health service cooperating with to ski institute beneath that fond layer writes, dear, sir. Sometime ago you were given a thorough examination and since that time, we hope you have gotten a great deal of treatment for bad blood, you will now be giving your last chance to get a second examination. This examination is a very special one. And after his finished you will be given a special treatment if it is believed you aren't condition stand when he's finished typing vonda layer grins, rather pleased with himself with talk of special treatments, very special, examinations and last chances. It's quite the sales pitch. And it works scores of study patients enthusiastically embraced the opportunity mitt to a painful and risky procedure. They don't know his coming in may of nineteen thirty three at the ski institutes Andrew hospital, the spinal tasks begin. American scandal is brought to you by chase. So you're ready to downsize a chase. They get it. You've had the garage sale. You ship the last kid off to college. You've even sold your old house. Wake you sold your house, where are you going to live, relax? Chase has your back as a chase customer. You're guaranteed to close on your next home quickly or you'll get one thousand dollars so you can skip the storage unit and crashing on your son's futon. 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Spectacular failures is a new podcast from APM, the tells the true stories behind the biggest flops in business history in each episode host, Lorne Ober dives into the bad luck worst decisions. And sometimes just total in confidence that lead to big businesses, big mistakes, like when a Christian theme park, run by Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker collapsed from fraud and scandal, or when Kodak fumbled its own amazing invention or even when Donald Trump bet big on Atlantic City, casinos and loss bigger, some of the stories are shocking summer funny, summer San but each one will give you a totally new perspective on big business, and big failure. You can find spectacular failures at spectacular failures dot org or wherever you listen to podcasts. Nurse rivers grips, the steering wheel tight when she breaks accelerates. She tries to be as gentle as possible. She's doing her best, but knows best is not good enough for Carter Howard. It's not his fault. He's just had the needle slogged slowdown don't, don't drive so fast. Got got hurts. Hang on Mr. Carter almost home. I can't handle this nurse. Rivers can't yes you can. You'll feel better soon Thammasat supposed to hurt this much. I promise what you're feeling right now is perfectly normal. This isn't the first time nurse. Rivers has lied to a test subject, and it certainly won't be the last, but truthfully she surprised Howard is an in more pain? She was there for his spinal tap, and it was awful the doctor stuck him two or three times before he got it right. And each time how're cried out in pain. All these spinal tap have been hell on the men. She drives them home as carefully. She can. But there's only so much you can. Do with her shabby car on these rocky. Dirt roads. It knocked me out nurse rivers fainted in their faded. You know, she doesn't know. You just lie down when you get home and rest here. Just just give it a few days. I'm universe forever. If they're gonna stick you in the back every time we go in there, I don't wanna be there, that's the only time is for Howard, you are all done. All right. We're here. You wait just a minute. Mr Howard come around to help you through your front door. Nurse river sleeves Howard grimacing on his couch cursing. The government doctors as she drives back to the hospital. She thinks about how he's not the only one she's left like that nearly every man who underwent a lumbar, puncture emerged worse for the wear many vowing never to return, even though she sworn to them that the spinal shots are a one time thing. It's a serious problem when she gets back to ski gay. She personally roaches, Dr von, Blair and forms him that three of the test subjects refused to come in others have offered various excuses. She does everything she can to change their minds, but they're too frayed bond layers prepping for the next spinal tap as the talk and she can see he's not worried. He tells her she shouldn't be either are some of the men going to drop out shore. But that always happens in any kind of study where human test, subjects are involved. What's important is the staff at performed three hundred seven spinal punctures and just a few weeks. Dr Wang has said he considered this a remarkable showing. Nurse. Rivers finds herself nodding along then bond layer tells her to get back to work, and she does what else could she do nurses shouldn't question? Doctors women shouldn't question. Men and blacks shouldn't question. Whites. It's June nineteen thirty three and after nine months. It's finally time for the two ski syphilis study to conclude the final spinal tap is conducted and Wagner, later starts saying his goodbyes. He bids farewell to the ski GI physicians who returned to their regular posts you. Thanks nurse rivers for her help and wishes her well in pursuit of her next job. This experiment has been such an adventure von layer. Thanks to himself as he closes up the clinic, feeling much like a small child, ordered to put away his toys, he realizes. He isn't ready for the fun to end. But. Nothing to be done. He returns to DC to the building and walks down the long hallway, Dr Clarkson, office for a debrief. He expects all the regular things one expects from these meetings. Good work, Raymond, we're proud of you, Raymond. What's next for you, Raymond? But instead onto layer sits down ops, Dr Clark. And here's some surprising news Clark has decided to retire. The PHS needs a new director of the division of venereal diseases, the PHS, Dr Clark already know who they would like to take over in an instant bond layer. Accepts immediately sees the potential for new research the opportunity to explore fresh scientific frontiers, above all the power to decide the fate of the two ski syphilis study, why does it have to end? Now, just when he and his co workers are on the cusp of genuine insight into the impact of untreated syphilis on the gross. Why did the study have to end at all under director vonda layer it does? Doesn't vonda layer says, all of this out loud, a tone of fervor begins to rise in his voice true. The test subjects don't know. They have syphilis. Yes, they were manipulated into getting their spines punctured, maybe some people would question the tactics. But what they're too short sighted to grasp is that actually vonda layer is a friend, the negro he's found some truly serious late-stage pathologies and many of the test subjects if he can demonstrate just how bad untreated syphilis can be for a black man. And perhaps congress will take the disease or seriously and fund more treatment programs facilities. Dr Clark says we would be medical pioneers. Meanwhile, Dr Oliver winger happily back at home the place. He considers his true home that is venereal disease clinic, he built in hot springs. Arkansas in the clinic today, he makes his daily rounds examines new patients warmly greeting old ones. He realizes that he honestly, missed them after to ski, he's more passionate about helping negroes than ever to wonderful time to be negro after all in the past no one gave a damn about their health nowadays. They have doctors like himself and Dr Raymond vonda layer to look after them in a cheerful mood, he passes by a secretary Nasc, if the days mail has come in smiling, she handed over. I'll be my office for the next fifteen minutes or so. He says, and once at his desk, he sits down and sorts through the many envelopes one return address, stands out, Dr Raymond vonda layer, public, health service, director of the division of an aerial diseases. Washington DC banger reaches for the letter opener and begins to read after a few lines, he grins. Raise barely held the office a month, but he's wasting no time. Vong layers been corresponding with various health officers reviewed, all relevant syphilis related literature. He's come to definitive conclusion that will transform the to ski study for the better and forever. Allaire confidently states. Everyone is agreed that the proper procedure is the continuance of the observation of the negro men used in the study with the idea of eventually bringing them to autopsy while you're can't believe it. Not only does the study live. But Dr vonda layer wants to continue it until the test subjects died when you're nods such a long term, longitudinal, study would be groundbreaking and immeasurably further medical science observations made by doctors looking at xrays. We'll never match the observations pathologists can make looking at damage organs under a microscope. There's just no substitute for the real thing, and as always vonda layers already anticipated. The objections Wang didn't think to himself, if the men are to be observed until the end of their lives than when does the study actually end, but vonda layer has an answer. Ready autopsies may be quote impractical in connection with some of the younger cases. But he goes on those more advanced age with serious complications of the vital organs should have to be. Followed only for a period of a few years, inspired winger terms to his typewriter and begins to draft his reply naturally. There's the question of how the black men and making county might feel about all of this winger supplies. A simple answer fall back on the tried and true strategy. Keep the patients in the dark, most of these people won't like the idea of autopsies carving up the body after death and stitching, it back together won't sit right with them. These are simple, Christian folk after all so winger rights, just don't tell them he adds if the colored population become aware that accepting free hospital care means of post mortem, every dark, you will leave making county will hurt Dibble's hospital. This can be prevented, if doctors of making county are brought into our own confidence and requested to be very careful not to let the objectives of the plan, be known. He suggests that they make sure all the counties private doctors know that if someone dies in their care. Your body should be turned over to reckless to the H for autopsy weighing your takes note Avante. Layers, other ideas, not all of them are correct. And here when you're knows he can be of help his gestures made. He finishes his letter signs, it and hands it to his secretary for her to send by the end of the day. Von Daron and his brand new DC office is elated. Define that winger clearly shares his sense of urgency less than a week has gone by already has an envelope from hot springs. This must be wingers response to the news, that the study is alive, and well on the layer tears, it open and is relieved to find that Wang or completely agrees with bringing them into autopsy, he does take issue. However, with the continued employment of nurse rivers. She's not a bad nurse and wingers opinion. But when you're notes, she's to soft with men, he writes, I don't see that she can do anything else than us up gasoline, making weekly calls on these patients, which do not seem to me to be necessary though. They may be friends to their neighbors husbands to their wives and fathers to their sons to the medical staff. The men in the study are none of these things they are test subjects. When you're put it like this, as I see it, we have no further interest in these patients until they. Vonda layer thinks it over when you're saying the test subjects, don't need colored nurse. Babying them. But he agrees in his reply. He tells winger unless someone is working locally with the idea of constantly keeping the welfare of the study in mine. Very little would be accomplished. And so north rivers will stay bond layer does take one of wingers, other suggestions winger wants the black pathologist with the US veterans bureau hospital. Dr Jerome j Peters to handle all tops. They've worked closely with Peter's already he did, many of the spinal taps, good idea of, on Lehrer. Thanks, the more black doctors, and nurses are part of this thing, the better. Dr Eugene Dibble's mind races, as he listens to Dr Bondo layer, share his updated plans for the syphilis experiment on layer smiles too much talks too quickly. And of course, uses all the right words, Dibble appreciates the effort, though. Inwardly chuckles, a bit white man often get like this on the rare occasion, when they need to ask a negro for something just can't order him to do it after a few moments Dibble ask for clarification on one key point. So if I understand correctly. Dr Bonn, this study is now to last indefinitely. Well, I don't know that I'd used that word specifically, I prefer to use the term open ended, we'll the experiment and of course it. Well, but, but why ended prematurely before we've truly learned everything there is learn to Dibble this sounds perfectly reasonable, but for some of the subjects he sees every day, it does sound like a death sentence. But if such a cost is going to be paid, then he'll at least insurance cost beneficial to discuss in long. Run offend new of the studies to bring the patients to all seeing that means you want to use to skeeve, facilities, nurses, interns, for the duration that is correct. And we've already secured the funding and you'll have reliable people performing the autopsies autopsies will be handled personally, by Dr Peters, and yourself, sir. If you're open to nurse rivers will be on hand. This would be a very valuable education for her as I'm sure you're aware, displeases, Dr devil. It's exactly what he wanted to here. I am. There and I look forward to the continuation of our partnership as do I Dr Dibble, this is truly historic making work. We're doing a rich study of the facts of syphilis on the human economy. Dr Dougal has to stifle scoff, the human Connie he certain that when von der discusses this study with his fellow white doctors. It's negro male this and negro male that not so much, when he's forced to discuss it with an actual negro male, but Dibble things the semantics have some value. No one can accuse him of knowingly collaborating on study, potentially horn to blacks, besides what he does. He does for the good of his organization, and the good of all his people. Yes. Dr von this will be rich study of the effects of syphilis on the human economy. Indeed. In the months to come the doctor cement plans for the studies next face. Not only will the men be brought to autopsy, but there will be more men a control group in late July nineteen thirty three Dibble receives a letter from bond layer. Informing him. The study should add quote on number of control cases, having no evidence of syphilis Dibble pauses to take that in means roughly three hundred new test subjects von delay. Writes that, adding the control group will clarify diseases effects on the body. Those black men with syphilis can now be compared directly to those without under similar clinical conditions. Of course, they too will be deceived, as to the true nature of the study, Dibble size begins composing, reply agreeing to the proposal there's little else for him to do. In November, nineteen thirty three vonda layer takes note of the fact that he has the full and enthusiastic cooperation of both a ph s and the ski institute to continue the study now. Yes to get all the local medical society board of health supervisors in and around making county on board. These organizations will be useful in keeping track of dies. Vonda layer wants to make sure he knows about every single test subject death to miss one would be disastrous for the men must be promptly brought to autopsy he decides he must rapidly scheduled joint, medical society and board of health meetings in each relevant, Alabama county, he tells the officials he'll personally attend each meeting and explain the study in detail for the next several weeks. He drives from county to county at meeting after meeting, he's delighted to hear no objections. Instead, everyone agrees that this study is valuable and beneficial to the entire field of syphilis research bond layers, delighted and returns to DC eagerly await. The influx of data surely about to come his way and he doesn't have to wait long the first man dies within weeks. Autopsies are rivers for so long work had been a joy scares her. She doesn't like watching the doctors take saws to the men's Bonnie's. She can't help view. The procedures has a regular person might with horror. She reminds herself that she must be better than this. She's not a regular person. She's a nurse of the ski institute working on a pioneering sunny, not long ago. Dr von layer told her that this experiment is very similar to one that was conducted in Norway on white men. This is simply the negro version, he said it's very important. Rivers wants to reflect well on the nurses training program that made her on Dr Dibble, who's giving her so much, if not for her position. She would be out there struggling like so many other poor souls desperate for employment and a great depression that shows, no sign of ending rivers reminds herself that autopsies may be crude but she can't hide from them. She. He remembers her father tries to think of what he might say, if he were here now for the first time in weeks, she feels strong, Dr Davila's calling. She can hear him down the hall. It must be time for her to help with another autopsy nurse rivers stiffens. But this time of courage, not fear. She's doing meaningful work here, and her patients Trustor she'll just have to get used to seeing them, cut apart. American scandal is sponsored by mail chimp, so you want to grow your business. Now, what growth means? New customers and new customers means new marketing male chimps new all in one marketing platform is the best way to manage more of your marketing activities from one place, so you can market smarter and grow faster. You don't need separate Email automation, CRM scheduling, lis- management, tools, male, chimps all in one marketing platform, gives you everything you need to create publish manage, and measure, multi-channel campaigns, and then collect organize understand, and act on all your audience, data, you'll know who to talk to what to say when to say it, and the best channel to deliver the message, the complete marketing platform has everything you need to start marketing your business today, and they'll be there to help as your business grows needs new capabilities. So if you want to grow your business, and you're wondering now what mail chimp? That's what learn more at mail. Chimp dot com. It's nineteen thirty five two years. Since the autopsies began nurse rivers surprised by how far she's come before she could only think of the fact that men she talked with helped comforted driven to and from their homes. Now, cold lying on, even colour slabs from their systematically sliced into Semel their brains. Vital organs spinal cords, removed an assessed. She was squeamish then but not anymore. Now she's a true, professional besides autopsies can only take place if the dead men's families consent. It's her responsibility to secure that consent test subject died today. His next of kin expect her in the hospital waiting room any minute. It's tastefully. Furnished, the quiet and sterile kind of place where you feel you want to whisper, even though there's really no need. This is not nurse rivers favorite room in the hospital, but she has job to do. As she approaches rivers can hear woman with grief. She enters the waiting room sees the woman, the man's wife sobbing. She stands with tissues in hand staring at the floor man. May I sit with you for a moment? I'd like to speed you. Bet. Your husband river, sits pauses, a moment in respectful. Silence and begins. She can tell this woman will not be easy to convince so she takes his slow. Your husband was he was a great man. Great man. I'm so sorry for your loss. I just don't understand what happened. We, we saw he was sick. We just thought he'd get better. Then he didn't. Now, I don't know what we're gonna do rivers places her hand over the grieving. Woman's let's crying. And the woman looks up rivers again, Ezra question. The same thing happened to me to us. Can we get what he got nurse? Rivers can't help it. She begins to cry to she honestly hopes for next statement is into line. No, no. You're fine. I don't want you to worry. You, you won't get sick. Then she wipes the tears away like a professional would. Now, I want to ask you a favor. You don't have to do it. We don't have to. But I want to ask the doctors want to learn 'cause husbands down, you know what an operation. Yes. This is just like an operation except the person's you open him up. No, no, no. But the funeral I can't let anyone see him like that north rivers. I can't. I can't it won't be like that during the operation, they'll just take a quick look in his chest stomach and his head when he's dressing in the casket. No one even be able to tell that he had opperations close won't cover his head though. That's okay. Too. Can I can I describe what you how it works? The naked incision. It's like a small cut in the back of the skull. Pull the hair over the face. And then when they're done put the hair back in place, very, very carefully in the cough and he'll be on his back. He'll be lying on the incision understand. I've seen a lot of these and I won't let anything happen to him after the operation. The doctors will have peace of mind. So you when you say. Okay. Nurse rivers. You tell them that they can do. Thank you rivers puts her arm around the woman, she holds her for a long time. It's a gesture, she'll repeat often as the study continues for the next ten years. Dr John r Heller recognizes that nineteen forty three is a landmark year in the history of syphilis legiti. This is the year that science has finally found a reliable answer to the disease penicillin cures. Heller is the inspired and energetic. New director of the division of narrow diseases at the PHS. He's proud to have inherited the position from Dr von layer. Who's decided it was time to retire. Von Dilara was ready to bring his career to an end. But he made it clear before he left that ending the to ski study was out of the question. Also out of the question hour knows is curing, any of the study patients, there will be no discussion of penicillin, and it will not be administered to any of the disease blacks as hell redecorates Fonda layers. Former office, he's quite relieved that no one has debated or questioned the penicillin decision because it's obvious why it's a good choice. Everyone understands that if the test subjects were given penicillin they'll no longer have syphilis. And if they no longer have syphilis than the disease can't be observed as takes over their bodies. All this work will have been for nothing Heller personally hopes that the study will continue into the next decade and under his leadership. It does. By nineteen fifty one. The study is nearly twenty years old. There's a new director and under him. Dr senio Lansky and Stanley, Shuman Lansky and Shuman operate out of the P, H, S, venereal disease research, laboratory in Atlanta, they're charged with conducting a full-scale review of the ski experiment. Shuman is a landscapes assistant and he's very busy lately. He can't believe how many meetings, he has to tend everyday highly detail oriented man Shuman has personally been responsible for helping track down, the PH officials who got the study off the ground back in thirty two he relished the task and kept his fingers crossed the old guard still believed as much in the study today as it did back then and he was thrilled when they still backed it to the last man with the founding father support, he and a Lansky collect documents and data to undertake a full-scale review of the experiments procedures today. Shuman is into ski listening to his boss lead. A discussion of the study. Progress over the past couple of decades. There are questions to be answered among the doctors gathered, but of course, the most important question is should the study persist all the test, subjects are now either old or middle aged Shuman hopes desperately that no one will demand the study, and like his predecessors, he believes that they're still just too much to learn. Luckily is calling green Shuman points out to the men gathered in the ski conference room that in fact, the age of the participants is a huge plus now the study can add a new focus nags on how changes in the body. Brought about aging differ from changes brought about by ongoing syphilis infection. Plus Shuman seen how much the test subjects like the doctor's now on the occasions. When the doctor's, visit the patient's homes, they receive humble, but heartfelt gifts cookies corn bread whatever else the negroes can make they're not treated for syphilis, but they're treated for other things in grateful for the medical attention, as they should be the P, H S into ski. Institute, Shuman things are doing these men. Many favors men in the room today. No the program as the ski study of untreated syphilis in the negro male, the patients node as the more innocuous to ski medical research study. What's wrong with that? They're getting care. They're patients didn't receive many of their neighbors couldn't even dream Shuman for his part, declares that he'd like to see the study continue for another twenty years and beyond. It will end when the last subject dies, not one day before. That's just good science. In June of nineteen sixty five Dr Irwin j shots. Thirty four year old cardiologists at the Henry Ford hospital in Detroit sits down for a quiet evening, at home in his living room. The windows are open to let the cool air in and shots. Just wants to relax after a long day he likes to stay focused on his profession even when he's away from the hospital. So for him relaxing often means diving into the latest issue of a medical journal. He's especially interested in empathy and education and medicine. He picks up a recently published report and begins to read his pulse quickens, and his brow furrows. He can't believe when he's reading can't be real can it? Why is this being discussed so casually in the open something, he's missing here? He reads it again, as someone gone mad black test subjects deceived, potentially life-saving treatment withheld has gone on for thirty years. He rushes to his study. Sits down before typewriter tries to keep his rage, and check. Days later, Dr Anne Q yobs at the centers for disease control sorts through her male. She opens a letter from Irwin, j shots and begins to read, she's astonished it reads, I'm awfully astounded by the fact that physicians allow patients with potentially fatal disease to remain untreated when affective therapies available. If this is the case, then I suggest that United States, public health service and those physicians associated with need to reevaluate them, moral judgments in this regard. Yobs wrinkled forehead she, Josh down a quick note and Staples at the shots letter. Then she slips the letter in a file and buries. The file deep in a basement cabinet, no one ever checks her note. Reads, this is the first letter of this type. We have received do not plan to answer this. Next on American scandal. The whistle is blown on the ski study the fallout is severe the fight for Justice begins from wondering this American scandal. I hope you enjoy this up. So if you did scribe now on apple podcasts and Spotify, Google podcast wondering dot com or wherever you're listening to this right now. If you're listening on a smartphone tapper swipe over the cover on his podcast. You'll find the episode news. Clewiston details, you may have missed. You also find some offers from our sponsors by supporting them. You help us offer this show to you for free. We'd also like to learn a little bit about you complete a short survey at one dot com slash survey. That's wondering dot com slash survey. We'd love to learn what you're listening to what you like, what topics, we might tackle next. You can also find us and me on Twitter. Search for hashtag American scandal or follow me at Lindsey Graham, we use many sources. When researching are stories but we highly recommend the books bad blood to ski syphilis, experiment by James, h Jones and the to ski syphilis study by Fred Degray, and just a quick note about our reenactments. We can't always know exactly what was said. But everything in our show is based on historical research, American scandalous, hosted edited, an executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for airshow sound Zayn by Derek Barron's. This episode is written by Hannibal DS, editing by Casey, minor executive producers are Stephanie jen's Jenny lower Beckmann. Her non Lopez for wondering.

syphilis Dr Clark Charles Pollard Dr Eugene Dibble Rivers Dr Wang Dr von layer Shuman ski PHS United States Dr Raymond von Blair Dr Oliver Alabama Lindsey Graham Washington Dr Raymond vonda director ski institute Dr vonda
Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Controlled Genocide | 3

American Scandal

41:03 min | 1 year ago

Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Controlled Genocide | 3

"There's one thing Peter Buxton hopes everyone. Today's meeting understands he's no bleeding, heart liberal, he's been Republican all his life, and that's not gonna change. So if they think this is a matter of some naive starry-eyed idealist from San Francisco sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong while they couldn't be more wrong. Boxing looks down at his watch a ceiling fan words overhead he shakes his head. The tardiness is typical of what he's been dealing with since arrival in Atlanta for the CDC syphilis research conference, the government invited him out paid for flights and accommodations. Then basically ignored him. The only reason anyone even agreed to this meeting is because Buxton's been making so much noise about the ski syphilis study to his bosses at the public health service. They said it was an opportunity for him to make his argument in person, the Buxton thinks it's just to keep them in line. Well, they can stonewall all they want because Buxton's prepared for fight he looks down at the documents. He's brought with him. Reports and charts neatly organized in a plain Manila envelope all the evidence. He needs that the study is a moral outrage. Finally hearing footsteps Buxton, double checks, his ties straight as the men start to file in Buxton rises. Hello, gentlemen. He's met with silence frowns outright, glares no-one shakes his hand. So he sits down again. The officials cluster around the opposite end of the conference table, the end, furthest from Buxton so Buxton, stands walks down to their end of the conference table and takes see. Well gentlemen, thank you for joining me today. I'm Peter Buxton venereal disease investigator out of the PHS, San Francisco bureau, Dr William Brown, head of the venereal disease section of the PHS non silently unfolds. His hands behind his head hangs the American flag. He's going for intimidating but Buxton. Thanks, Dr Brown. Looks nervous to his left. Assistant surgeon general, Dr John Cutler. He looks irritated Cutler roles as is in Buxton's direction. We know perfectly, well, who you are Mr. Buxton. So why don't you just get on with Buxton doesn't miss? Well, Dr Cutler, I'd be happy to get on with. The ski study is morally unjustifiable and must be ended immediately Cutler. Smirks shakes his head dismissively, you know, I read the report he sent to Dr Brown here. That's actually why came today. I decided I need to meet you in person. See for myself if you're some sort of alcoholic or lunatic, or something rambling on about a study, you know, nothing about people never met this is serious work. We're doing here, young man serious work. You're lying to these men to their families. Letting them die from something that's been curable since nineteen forty five. Let me remind you. It's nineteen sixty seven sir, you're talking about harm to the black sharecroppers. Are you serious? They have nowhere to go. But up do you hear yourself? The PHS has spent thirty five years using these men as Guinea, pigs more than six hundred men, Dr Cutler and hundreds of them have already died, Mr. Buxton. Everyone in this study's volunteer a vol. Interior, I suppose you think the Jews Auschwitz revolve, here's to that's completely uncalled for I will not be lectured by some era Ghent on fort here report, you wrote, Dr color, you wrote that the subject would have never agreed to study without the quote suasion of burial expenses. I did not write that. I didn't write that must have been written by one of my colleagues, which one, I'd like to speak with him. Let me tell you a story. Group of poor, totally uneducated, and unsophisticated met their government, observed them. Yes. But for the good of science. And meanwhile government, also fixed every other element these men suffered free of charge for the duration of their lives lives that lasted much longer than they would have without that care who else in America hasn't so good. Okay. Doctor cutler. Now. I'll tell you a story, imagine one morning, you wake up to this headline white doctors in decades long, conspiracy to experiment on black men. The article describes you and your colleague standing by as one by one. These men have come to blindness heart injury than sandy for years to black men, said doctor, what's happening to me, and the white doctors lied. And they're still lying to this day. Are you actually threatening us? You have no idea what you're talking about. I don't see what else we discuss here Buxton gathers his documents. No, I'm not threatening. You not yet. But gentlemen. You better hope the world is not out about. This turn on the team. Watch the news, one of these nights, race riots black power negroes are not sitting for this kind of thing if we allow this experiment to continue, we are everything they say, we are, and we'll deserve everything will get Buxton stands without another word exits the conference room leaving the door wide open behind. American scandal is brought to you by chase. So you're thinking about buying a new home and chase. They know you whether it's vacation home condo in the city or new place. Closer to the grand kids. You're not slowing down anytime soon. So you need a lender who can keep up chase will save you money over time by showing you how you can pay off your mortgage faster. That's money, you can spend on new sports car or on a second home in Scottsdale or taking up goat yoga chase customer. Save more. Learn more at chase dot com slash A S chase. Make more of what's yours. All home lending products, are subject to credit in property approval rates program. Terms and conditions are subject to change without notice, not all products, are available in all states or for all amounts other restrictions, and limitations apply honing product offered by AP Morgan Chase Bank NA an equal housing lender. From wondering, I'm Lindsey Graham. And this is America scandal. The to ski study was nearly four decades old before anyone seriously questioned it, but it was never a secret. The black test subjects didn't know what was going on? But as the years passed more and more people in the white medical community did journals published papers regarding the study doctors disgusted freely during conferences throughout the nineteen thirties forties, and fifties. The doctors knew of the study saw as worthwhile research, that wasn't hurting anyone beginning in the nineteen sixties others in the healthcare field, like Peter Buxton sauce, something else on mitigated racism. Buxton learned of the study in nineteen sixty five as an employee of the PHS he attempted to end the study through the proper channels writing letter after letter to people at the top of his organization, he wouldn't let it go. And this led directly to his confrontation with Cutler nineteen sixty seven but it wasn't until nineteen sixty nine that the CDC which now oversaw. The study finally decided to take bucks in subjection, seriously officials can be panel that February not to end the study, but to discuss, whether it should be this episode three control genocide. Dr David censor removes his glasses and rubs his eyes. The always thought being director of the would be a dream job. Not a nightmare, the holier than thou gadfly, Peter Buxton quit two years ago. But that has not stopped this to ski thing from following sensor around. He opens his eyes and watches the doctors file into the conference room and take their seats, the state health officer of Alabama three medical professors senior officer from a medical foundation. Plus doctor Sidney landscape who used to run the study in question. But now works at Emory University. And of course, Dr Brown from the PHS, but there are no medical ethicists, and no black people. Sensor doesn't eat them here stirring, the pot. He's gathered the best of the best, and he sure they can figure it out on their own once everyone seated censor get started. He doesn't see the point and dragging this out any further. He briefly describes the study, then tells the men there in this room to decide future when it started. There was no talk of. Discrimination, or bigotry and no one had a problem with keeping the test subjects away from treatment. But now, people are asking questions and things were getting political so censor throwing up his hands, where here to decide we let the study go on. Or do we kill before opening things up for discussion sensor as Dr Brown review, the numbers, Dr Brown begins talking shaky voice Cording to his data? The original study group from nineteen thirty two was comprised of four hundred twelve black males infected with syphilis and two hundred four blackmail controls, never got sick, according to recent figures just fifty six if lyrics and thirty two controls now remain three hundred seventy three men in both groups are dead Brown tells the panel that he certain very certain that syphilis was the primary cause of death in only seven of them the youngest survivors, fifty nine years old. The oldest is eighty-five sensor, then announces that the matter is open for discussion, who would like to speak next. Dr j Lawton Smith off the Ma. Professor at the university of Miami argues. The study must continue he's examined, the test subjects for signs of we can vision and blindness and taken photos. He wants to continue doing so twenty years from now when these patients are gone, we can show their pictures, you will never have another study like this. He declares take advantage of it. Censors encouraged by the Nazis. But one man isn't nodding clearly unhappy. Dr Jean stolen chairman of the department of medicine at the university of Tennessee in a low voice sensor says before we continue at one of you shut that door. Sensor, considers the many doctor seated around the conference table of the men here. Stolman is the only one who wasn't aware of the study prior to being asked to assess it. And if he has reservations. Well, disagreements medicine are nothing new stolen can make arguments sensors confident that he can counter them all Dr stolen you look like you have something to say, yes, Dr censor do. Now, I don't want it to bait anyone as to the scientific merit. The study L remind even be a few, but that is nothing to do with the morality. What's happening here, the morality? Yes, Dr sensor, it's time to think of these tests subjects, not as test subjects, but as unique patient suffering from an illness. I mean what happened to the Hippocratic of, you're not suggesting just a moment, please. I'm not finished by the standards of our profession. This is an unethical study. At least as it's presently being carried out not gonna sit here and say kill the study your else. I will say this. Let's examine. Each patient and determined on a case by case basis, if treatment would be beneficial at this point in their lives, but that would completely undermine the goals and intentions of the experiment. And frankly, I take issue with your ethical judgments here. I don't find the study on the tests, subjects are being treated just not for syphilis and I'm thankful for that. Dr censor believe me, as I'm sure these men are, but penicillin exists it didn't in nineteen thirty two. It does. Now nineteen sixty nine though it may be inconvenient for some people in this room. We have a moral obligation to cure these patients, if possible though, respectfully, I disagree understood. I know you disagree, but I'd like to add just one more thing, more and more people will find out about the study in the years to come. I don't wanna be here when they find out the repurpose flea withheld penicillin for men who could have been saved by there's only silence. Sensor scans the room for rebuttal. He's thankful to see it appears doctor Lansky may already have one allows you, please. Go ahead. Well, thank you. Dr sensor with regards to the penicillin question surely, must know that introducing drug this late the progression of the seas carries its own risks. I don't know that these risks are worth and frankly, of course, censor- thanks treatment at this point is dangerous. He's grateful when another doctor says that he assumes the group probably wouldn't even accept treatment if offered. So why even ask sensing momentum fully on aside censor puts it to vote. The results are nearly unanimous study will continue. With that settled censor asks, the panel to tackle second issue. How do we make sure the press? He's this our way. Everyone knows the most bulletproof way to protect themselves would be to get informed consent from every test subject, but censor tells the group that this isn't feasible. So what's the next best thing, he's disappointed when stolen speaks I why isn't it feasible to get consent from the men censor explains it, slowly as he would to someone who's not very bright? The test, subjects are mostly elderly sharecroppers, who didn't make it past grammar school, if they ever attended in the first place to get informed consent from them talkers, would I probably have to explain what consent even was then they need to break down the facts of the experiment. Those facts would certainly lie beyond the comprehension of these men, but some form of consent should be attained. So how do they do it? One of the other doctors present sensor with solution. It's called surrogate, informed. Consent. They'll go to the physicians of Macon county, medical society and get them to sign off on the study on behalf of the test subjects to win on all fronts for everyone involved censor germs, the panel, and thanks the physicians for their participation in the weeks to come censor spearheads efforts to secure the cooperation of the medical society by September nineteen seventy he has it. It's a fischel. The to ski study is in its fifth decade with nothing to stop it. Untreated syphilis will still be observed the subject still won't know about it. And each of them will be brought to autopsy in due time the CDC will learn a lot in the process, censoring, Tippett's future. Looks bright. As the fog rolls outside his -partment in San Francisco, Peter Buxton sits kitchen, table with the afternoons mail, he sorts through and stops when he gets a letter from Dr Brown, at least it says, it's from Dr Brown, Buxton wouldn't be shocked, if his boss sensor, actually wrote a forum Buxton tears open the envelope and reads, he hates moments like this when once complete cynicisms validated Brown confirms that the experiment to ski has been reviewed by group of extremely qualified doctors who've come to the conclusion that it shall continue with no treatment provided to the test subjects. Dr Brown stresses that the decision to forego treatment is a matter of medical judgment. Since the benefits of such therapy must be offset against the risks to the individual. The latter is more or less, what Buxton expected. But it's incredibly frustrating, he knows Dr Brown isn't at heart. A bad person, none of these doctors. Are they just cannot see this from any perspective outside of their own? You wonder what words he could use to help doc Brown? See the true nature of what's going on here. Why it's unacceptable and unethical these black men or not just test subjects. They're human beings. And despite the enticing scientific possibilities. There are just certain things that human beings, do not do to other human beings three as simple as that as he begins to type his reply. Boxing knows his words will fail to convince Brown, if even reach them, but Buxton rights anyway, it feels good he types and types. He chronicles the history of the study decade by decade, and declares that the subjects can no longer exercise choice of ending their days free from syphilis. He catalogs, the moral medical, and legal issues, and concludes with this. What is the ethical thing to do compensate, the survivors, compensate, the families of all the subjects were should the CDC away, the quiet, demise of the survivors, and hope that will end the matter, Buxton believes that medicine is supposed to be. Simple, not easy. But simple, if a person has a problem and you know how to fix it. You fix it that feeling you get when, you know you made. So in better is supposed to be the reason you do what you do rereading his painstaking chronicle of everything. He knows about the ski study he wonders when that changed reply to Brown in hand oxygen walks to the mailbox at the end of his block. He's surrounded by a murky gray gloom, as far as the I can see. Doc brown. Never writes back and for the next two years. Buxton obsesses over the experiment. He attends law school and brings it up at every opportunity talked fella students. He talked professors. Everyone tells him the same thing it's a terrible experiment. But there's little legal recourse, the statute of limitations has likely expired from most of the test subjects involved boxing, could try writing a C L U. Maybe they'll know what to do. What finally and July nineteen seventy-two he bumps into Edith letter of the Associated Press at a dinner party tells her the story. She decides that together, they'll tell the world. American scandal is sponsored by slanted. So you're in a band, you're young hopeful got the right mix of rebel and showman you get a bit of a following than a bigger following. Hey, this is going, well, you're going to need to get organized. You do the stuff Bank account manager DA LLC, then you register for trademark on the band's name. That's when you realize you also need a lawyer to fight the government. This is the story of Simon Tam and his band. 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The day after her conversation with, Pierre Buxton Edith letter rushes to her desk at the Associated Press and rummages through it for a number. There's another journalist who must take it from here. Gene Heller AB research bureau. Jean Yves, hey spout to head out to Miami for the DNC. But I've got a couple of minutes perfect. I won't keep you. I really need your help right listening. I need you to investigate the PHS in the CDC do it myself. But my boss says, I can't you want someone closer to the action since you're in DC thought of you what action, you ready for this forty years of experimentation on black men in Alabama. Excuse me. Yeah. That's right. Most of the subjects have syphilis and have had it since the nineteen twenties. But the doctors never told them never offered penicillin. They're intentionally letting them succumb to the complications of their disease. Simply so they can observe the effects going to do it until every single one of them dies. There's a long pause on the other end of line finally Heller response. That's messed up. Yeah. So you can help me. Yes. Where do I start together charts letters stats everything you'll need? I'm literally just gonna put it in a box and ship it to you and let you take it from there. I think that'll work outta work after Lederer hangs up. She immediately begins packing the documents to send to her friend in DC, gene is the perfect person to blow this wide open. She's the best investigative reporter lenders ever met. And she knows everyone in Washington Jeanne will go to the CDC interview everyone. She can she'll dig and dig won't stop until everything buried is uncovered. And by the end of the month. Hellers work is done when she calls letter to let her know she still sounds prize at how easy the CDC made things for her. Let our new they would though after all as they see it. They took the prudent step of securing informed consent for the test subjects ethically. They're not concerned and legally, they're in the clear, but maybe they're not prepared for what happens next. The story breaks on July twenty fifth nineteen seventy-two in the Washington star. Two days later. John or Heller, long retired is at home with his wife. They're just about to sit down to dinner when the phone rings, the man on the other end of the line apologize for calling this late. But he's with the New York Times, and he has some questions. Heller says he has no problem talking about his time at the PHS, as director of the division of venereal diseases. He sixty seven years old and has absolutely nothing to be shamed of Heller explains the reporter that he was expecting this call even looking forward to it like the other surviving doctors involved in the formative years of the ski study his conscience is clear. In fact, he feels he and his former colleagues have been treated somewhat unfairly current government officials to be doing a bit more to stick up for the study leaders when the reporter asked about the ethics of denying. The test subjects treatment Heller has to suppress snort test subject probably got treatment anyway, from private doctors. They saw on their own time reporter asked if there's a record. Of which test subjects visited private doctors for treatment. Hello, shrugs. No documentation on that was capped by these sure it happened. Next question. The reporter then asks if there's anything Heller would have done differently. If given the chance the answer that it's no Heller thinks about von Miller, Wehner Clark. They don't deserve to have their names dragged with mud in their defense and his own. He replies. There was nothing in the experiment, that was unethical or unsigned typic-, then hangs up phone. Meanwhile, to ski nurse rivers is in her living room, straightening up duster in hand. She's a lot of time to do that. These days ever since they made her retire sixty five on account of rain. She's not bitter, though, just grateful. She got to work for as long as you did people ask, if she's worrying about what the papers are saying about the experiment. She replies that she's not worrying to all people can right within like they weren't there. They don't know her. She truly cared for those men and help to make sure they got to their appointments on time even after she was no longer fishery part of the study, just a few months ago, a neighbor wanted to know why she still did it. Why bother with patients and the ski you program, which didn't even work there anymore. Rivers replied with God's honest truth. They're friends of mine. I'm trying to keep up with them. So the department can keep up with them. I love those people. She thinks about them now as she looks up at her living room wall frame, there is her vehicle hobby award certificate store. Upon her by the US department of health, education and welfare. She never gets tired of reading the words to Eunice rivers for notable service coming twenty five years during which through selfless devotion, and skillful human relations. She is sustained the interest and cooperation of the subjects of venereal disease control program in Macon county. Alabama the certificate hangs between a picture of Dr king plaque inscribed with the Florence Nightingale pledge with a smile. She walked forward to dust it off. The phone won't stop ringing, Dr Melvin k Duval's office. He's tempted to pull the cord right out of the wall. Divall is assistant secretary for health and scientific affairs for the US department of health education welfare is department oversees, the CDC, which oversees the PHS, so he barely had a chance to read yesterday's AP story on the ski study before the damn phone started blowing up physicians politicians the media. It's endless in a statement, Senator proc Meyer, Wisconsin just cleared the study, a moral and ethical nightmare. Divall grimaces. It's a nightmare. All right. There's a knock on the office door and divall. Shouts to come in. It's the secretary here to write down devolves official statement, which will later be delivered to the press. Vol takes moment to collect your thoughts then begins I am shocked by ski stunning. No. He should be more forceful. He starts again. I'm. Shocked and horrified by the ski study. Although the study was begun in nineteen thirty two and although the opportunity to bring treatment to the men has long since passed. I am today, launching a full investigation into the circumstances surrounding. We will make a special effort to determine why the study was permitted to continue pass the time when penicillin became the effective drug of choice against the disease. He asked the secretary to find his spokesman divall wants him to remind the public when the study began forty years ago treatment for syphilis carried fatal risks. That's probably why it was withheld at the time, and he hopes these statements quite everyone down while he figures out what to do. Weeks pass as divall crafts, the official government response to the uproar, obviously, it's important to do the right thing. But it's equally important to do the right thing in the right way. And they're already been bumps he announced he'd conduct an internal review, but the public outcry was immediate government doctors don't get to police themselves anymore. They said fine divall can compromise. So today August twenty fourth. He's on his way to the front of his office, building to address the reporters himself after asking them to quite down. So we can speak. He boldly faces their lights lenses microphones, and shares. The new plan he is here today to announce that a citizen's panel will investigate the ski experiments, it will be run by broadest, Nathaniel Butler, president of Dillard university in New Orleans, divall has charged the panel with answering three major questions. One was the study justified to should the study be continued at this point. Time three our existing policies to protect the rights of patients participating in health research, adequate. And if not, what improvements recommended then the reporters began asking questions and divall dutifully answers each one in turn naturally, the first one concerns Butler, what led Duval to select him to run the panel for the assistant secretary. That's an easy one. I selected Mr. Butler because he's accomplished esteemed. Repeatable naturally. Divall refrains from saying what's for him Butler's, most significant attribute. He's black divall wishes. He could point out the Butler is actually one of five blacks on the nine person panel. And they'll obviously represent the public point of view over the scientific one he can't think of what more they could possibly want and also what he doesn't mention and what luckily no one points out that Duval is still very much maintaining control over one key aspect of the investigation by restricting the panel to his three questions. He's taking the issue of racism off the table. There's no question. For asking why the study was limited to black people in April nineteen Seventy-three, the citizen's panel issues its first report in his office divall wishes. He had a tall bottle of scotch to go with it because it's just as damning as feared so much his argument that the experiment was possibly more permissible by nineteen thirty two standards, the panel says it was ethically unjustified, even then it also adds that penicillin should unquestionably been provided to the men finally the panelists that existing protection for human test subjects are ineffective and inadequate. It's time for congress to create a permanent body charged with regulating, all federally sponsored research on human subjects fall size. It's truly all out in the open. Now. He puts down the report takes off his glasses. Then he surprised to realize that for the first time he's curious about what the surviving test subjects make on this us a feeling. The government is about to find out. A pastor and his wife scamming addicts out of millions there. Degenerate, son, locking them up so we can steal it all and dangerous. Conman in a runaway is cream truck. Don't miss the new epix original series perpetual, grace limited from the executive producers of the acclaim series, patriot comes this surprising war thriller, that will become your next binge worthy drama. Starring in alias cast including kademi award winner. Ben Kingsley EMMY nominee, Jimmy Simpson and two time Academy Award nominee Jackie Weaver. Get ready for plot. Twists. You never see coming and characters you can't trust. Or can you all is not what it seems when Griffin sets out to steal four million dollars from an elderly couple who run the local church that helps troubled souls, divine plan quickly goes to hell. When it turns out that they aren't just a couple of old people watch perpetual, grace limited on the epochs now app and discover the series people are talking about download the ethics. Now apt to wa. Critically acclaimed original series and thousands of movies. Start your seven day free trial today and then only five ninety nine a month with epochs now affects have we got a story for you? Charlie? You just have bad blood. They told him that in nineteen thirty two when he was just twenty six they told him that in nineteen forty five when he was thirty nine they told him that again, just a few months ago shortly after his sixty six birthday, their faces change over the years, but they're lies did not the government. Doctors have been laughing at him for forty years beating him down in a street fight. He didn't even know he was in Charles Pollard is driving now, his eyes intense focused on the road focused on the future. The future that now is entirely in his hands. Bente late the never he suppose as Pollard accelerates towards his destination. He now has one goal on his mind pay. Pollard pulls up to the law offices of Gracie Langford in Montgomery, Alabama. He likes Fred gray. He's a solid lawyer sharp, but always friendly always ready to help a while back, he helped handle some routine paperwork for Pollard gray. So humble to meet him, you'd never know. He was the most powerful black lawyer in the state of Alabama. He's exactly what Pollard needs. And he'll know what to do when Pollard enders Gray's office. The lawyer immediately rises degree him offers a firm handshake, by the it, how the family is policies. No time to waste no interest in trying to remember all the details. The papers printed instead he tells the story plainly. Yes, gray, if he's read about the men who were involved in the test for bad blood gray. Nonce knows exactly what Pollard is talking about read everything. He can about it then Pollard tells gray what he came here to tell him, I'm one of those men, you says smile drops from grace face is, is narrow as greens. Lowered tell me everything he says, so Paul talks and Cray listens. All had been at a stockyard among Gumri, a woman from the newspaper walked up to amount of the blue and asked him if he'd been in the Tuskegee health program from the thirties confirmed that he had the woman if he knew Eunice rivers, of course, he knows nurse rivers, he watches gray takes it all in taking notes writing faster and faster and faster Pollard walks through it year by year doctor, visit by Dr Bizet over half his life as a lab rat, and their experiment. When the stories done gray looks just as mad as Pollard feels great promises on the spot to throw the full weight of his firm at the case on behalf Apollon, and all the other black men dead and alive, who were tested gray tells him that well-deserved money is about to come to him. And a lot of it that the government has been embarrassed who happily pay to get this disgrace off the front pages gray expects generous offer in the coming months. And if one is not forthcoming, you'll sue them for everything. They've got and he'll win Pollard nods that sound about right. Payback. In February nineteen Seventy-three Fred gray sits and Senator Edward m Kennedy's office on Capitol Hill. It's not the first time in DC on official business not by a long shot. He's only forty three. He's already argued civil rights cases before the US court before that he defended Dr king during the Montgomery bus boycott. And even before that he defended MRs Rosa Parks, when she wouldn't give up her seat, now he finds on behalf of Charlie pollen gray. Turns is the forty year old Senator charges in he seemed to protocal matter-of-fact filled with purpose gray likes them, immediately, graph new, Mr Gray. I am sorry for the wait. No need to apologize and candy. I appreciate your time. Kennedy sits down loses. Time takes a moment to collect his thoughts. Then he gets down to what happened into ski was inexcusable. I understand you're representing the survivors. That's good. Thank you. Senator I helped to secure for the men what this country. Oh, them nothing less nothing more while. I'm here to help. We're both lawyers. We both understand how important it is with cases like this to win notches in the courtroom. But in the court of public opinion, I couldn't agree more good. So that said, I wanna keep you in the man you represent the opportunity to tell their story to the American people, I'm Charing series of Senate subcommittee hearings on health and human experimentation talking about sterilization, shock therapy cetera. Unfortunately to ski fits right in gray nantz, if it's all right. The two ski was a program of control genocide. I'll be at the hearings, and I know I can get at least one or two the men to accompany me, that's terrific. Peer bucks will be there as well. And together all of us will put pressure on Washington to get the survivors, the compensation entitled to. Now, let's get to our. Kennedy rises, great as the same the shake hands gray leaves the office confident he's found a new friend and analysis in late February. He introduces Charles Pollard to Kennedy the next day, the subcommittee hearings begin. Gray fines hearings to be surprisingly emotional, certain days, he wants to weep other as he so angry wants to excuse themselves to walk it off. But there's no running from this, and there shouldn't be it's time the crimes of the ph in the CDC were exposed the got away with it for far too, long Braise, jaw clinches, and frustration as a here's Peter Buxton recall, how he valiantly tried to end the study from the inside. But with stonewall he nods agreement, Dr J cats and Yale says, peer review panels don't provide enough protection for human test subjects. He's moved when Pollard and another survivor lesser Scott recount, how they were systematically, taken advantage of betrayed by men and women. They were told the trust their poverty and lack of education used against them. When Senator Kennedy asph, Lester Scott how the government can make amends, Scott says simply they ought to give us compensation or something like that, where we can. See other doctors and continue our health when it's grace, turn to speak. He doesn't hold back. He tells those in attendance at these men are done forever, dealing with PHS. He says they have no faith trust or confidence that the public health service will properly examine them and give them proper treatment, and had all the PHS will do now is try to cover up their unlawful conduct during the past forty years later, grays encouraged to see the Kennedys range matches his own this powerful white Senator fully understand the gravity of the crimes, committed Kennedy describes study as outrageous intolerable situation which this government never should have been involved in. In April nineteen Seventy-three Charles Pollard is out on his farm amongst the crops. He pulls up weeds tend to the soil. He thinks about the past the friends he's lost. Why are they gone while he still here doesn't make sense to him? So much of this just doesn't make sense. The phone rings and with as much speed as he can muster. He walked back to the house. It's still ringing as he steps inside. He picks up the phone as glad to hear his lawyer Fred Grace's voice on the other end gray. Thanks again for testifying at the Senate hearing. He says, things will change. Now, the CDC's going to track down, all living survivors of the experiment. Even the ones who didn't have syphilis and tell them they've got free health care for the rest of their lives. Pollard can expect a visit from field Representative soon and gray ads. Pollard should go see a doctor any doctor. He chooses someone with no ties to ski or the government. Finally, he's going to get the care he needs. All of this is good gracious. Him. But he and Pollard both. No, it's not enough. This leads to graze one piece of bad news. The government has not offered a cash settlement and doesn't plan to Pollard can only shrug he didn't have his hopes up. So what's next he asks gray? Are we done? No says gray. What happens next is this? We sued the federal government for two billion dumps. Next on American scandal. The study may be over what it's not the end of the story for Fred, dre survivors or the African American community by hope you enjoyed this episode if you did subscribe, now on apple podcasts Spotify Google podcasts wondering dot com or wherever you're listening to this right now. If you're listening on a smartphone tapper, swipe over the cover art of this podcast, who find the episode notes, including some details, you may have missed also find some offers for more sponsors. My supporting them you help us offer this show to you for free. And if you'd like to hear more of American scandal, and other one ratios in addition to receiving extra content early access exclusive perks you can subscribe to wonder plus, go to wondering dot com slash plus that's wondering dot com slash p l u s you can also find us and me on Twitter. Search for the hashtag American scandal or follow me at Lynn. A Graham, we use many sources when researching are stories but we highly recommend the books back Ludd to ski syphilis experiment by James, h Jones and to ski syphilis study, Fred Degray, and just a quick note about reenactments we can't always know what exactly was said, but everything in our show is based on historical research. American scandal is hosted edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for airship sound design by Derek Barents. This episode is written by Hannibal DS, editing by Casey, minor executive producers are Stephanie jen's Jenny lower Backman and non Lopez for wondering.

Peter Buxton PHS Dr William Brown syphilis Charles Pollard penicillin Dr John Cutler CDC Alabama Pierre Buxton Edith CDC Dr David censor Gene Heller Boxing United States Buxton gray reporter San Francisco Lindsey Graham
Episode 114 --July 15, 2020 AFP: American Family Physician

AFP: American Family Physician Podcast

25:31 min | 4 months ago

Episode 114 --July 15, 2020 AFP: American Family Physician

"A. F. P. PODCAST is brought to you by the American Academy of Family Physicians. And by the AFP's growing library of audio learning products, currence audio topics include social determinants of health dementia, care, opioid use, disorder, and more available through the AFC. APP MORE INFORMATION AT afp Dot Org Slash listen. Welcome to the American family physician podcasts for the July Fifteenth Twenty Twenty issue. I'm Jake I'm Kelsey and I'm luke. We are all graduates actually of the University of Arizona College of Medicine Phoenix family. Medicine residency and your season one AFC podcasts team this time on the podcast. We'll talk about the DIMA DYMA- threshold to rule out PE syphilis mind body treatments for pain. Eight symptomatic bacteria community quired pneumonia guidelines, colon cancer screening Wada's steps, and we'll wrap things up with Acetaminophen for osteoarthritis. The opinions expressed in the podcast. Our own do not represent the opinions of the American Academy of Family Physicians the Editor of American family, physician or banner health do not use this podcast for medical advice. Instead, see your own family doctor for medical care. Law. Well, well, well, guys. It's good to be back together. Doing a little AF podcast in. How have you been adjusting? It has been A. Life in covert world is totally different every day, definitely week-to-week. Different Yeah indeed. It's hard to believe that it has been almost five years since we kick this whole AFDC podcasts. Thing off together. We are missing one of our season. One team members Megan Hunt but trans actually with us. Every episode with her legal ease is part of the opening disclaimer, but it's good to see you guys. You guys ready to wipe off some Dustin tryouts podcasting. We'll give it a shot. I'm a little rusty, definitely, not as as good the last couple seasons, but we'll give it a shot for everybody. Well thanks for joining us. Let's kick things off with a poem. In of course, all the dust in rust cannot prevent us from remembering that poems stand for patient orientation. Steve Brown tailed. Nailed it, so this poem comes to us from Doctors Commie, and it asks the question can different thresholds of Di Diner testing be used for patients with a low to moderate clinical pre-test probability to rule out pulmonary embolism. So ultimately, the benefit and goal of the study is to see if chest imaging can be safely avoided in low to moderate risk patients, saving patients time cost as well as radiation exposure. Right right so current clinical recommendations rule out pulmonary embolism in patients with low pre-test probability and DI, di Mer of less than five hundred nanograms per milliliter. This study focused on a couple of different groups and focused on patients with deamer levels between five hundred and nine, hundred, ninety, nine with a low pre-test probability, as well as those with moderate pre-test probability with a D. Diner, less than five hundred patients who were enrolled either in an. Outpatient Clinic, who met those criteria did not undergo chest imaging or receive inauguration. So about two thousand patients were enrolled with thirteen hundred meeting criteria and not having imaging. Eighty six point, nine percent of the enrolled patients had low protests probability, but only ten percent had moderate probability, no patients in either group at evidence of Venous thromboembolism. At Ninety days, followup study did show a decrease in need for chest imaging in patients with low pre-test probability. However, there was not enough of a patient population with moderate pre-test probability to come to a conclusion about that patient population, so it sounds like this tells us that patients with a low pre-test probability can be ruled out if they're. Deamer is between five, hundred, ninety nine, which is an improvement in our clinical tool there. All right great. Let's move on to syphilis. Far from ancient history in this main topic comes to us from Doctors Rico and Westby from the University of Minnesota. Medical School in Minneapolis. We're GONNA talk about syphilis. It's important because this is a battle that we are losing, and we really shouldn't be. Despite US having known about syphilis for hundreds of years it having very predictable clinical stages in US having a well-established treatment. Syphilis is still on the rise in the United States and the number of congenital syphilis cases has more than doubled in recent years, so let's start by talking screening the USPS t.f recommend screening for syphilis in all patients at increased risk, particularly those who reside in high prevalence areas. Sexually active people with HIV infection men who have sex with men people with a history of incarceration or history of sex work. All pregnant person should also be screened at least once during pregnancy, ideally at the first prenatal visit. The CDC recommends screening using the traditional approach which is done with entrepreneurial testing, like a RPR or VR l., which, if positive should be followed up with quantitative testing to look tighter and attributed specific destined in places with high prevalence like here in Maricopa County Arizona. A reverse screening approach can be followed to help avoid missing early cases. This approach starts with the triple. Nemo's specific test and is followed by non-japanese test. If that is positive, screening should at least annually in high risk groups, and those at highest risk could be screened as frequently as every three months based on expert opinion. All, right great now. We're GONNA play a game right because who doesn't love the syphilis game. We're GONNA. Play the syphilis in stages matching game I'm either going to give you this stage or the clinical manifestation in you. Give me the match. He has ready. Let's start with an easy one. Schenker primary syphilis. They usually last about ten to ninety days. Perfect perfect alright. Tertiary Syphilis. Neuro civilised occurs months years out though nervous. If can occur at any stage perfect, okay, another clinical manifestation for you, the Classic Macula Popular Rash that involves the palms insoles. And that's secondary's of Nice which usually lasts one to three months perfect array in then what's the clinical manifestation match for late? Civilised nothing remember that Layton is divided based on risk of transmission into latent, which is in the first year and late latent, which is after one year of latency her. He goes ready. What's the stage defined by Kandalama Lada? Dowana secondaries of course again. The secondary stage can also include Myalgia nephrotic syndrome generalised Lynton Pharyngitis in. Nice work, you guys are the first and probably only ever winners of the civilised matching game. Alright so if you diagnose syphilis either prompted by any of those symptoms or through screening, there are two big things. Remember that will wrap this topic up on. Number one penicillin is the first line therapy for all stages in Denver to don't forget that all patients diagnosed with syphilis should also be tested for HIV infection. Okay. Let's hit the listeners with another poem. This one comes to us from ABM Guru. Allen Shaughnessy from Tufts University Awry. Guys, little call back to season. One got a poem for you a real poem. Roses are smooth. Pinewood has grain. Will using mind body therapy your pain? Well. This poem tries to answer that question. The clinical question is do mind body therapies, including meditation, hypnosis, relaxation, decrease, pain, or affect opioid use in patients with acute or chronic pain or prescribed opioids. Dancer this question. The researchers assembled sixty RT's with six thousand four hundred patients and evaluated the mind body interventions in a myriad of pain syndromes, including post procedural pain burn pain, cancer pain in chronic pain, pain intensity was reduced by a moderate to large amount with meditation, mindfulness, hypnosis, their appeal, suggestion and cognitive behavioral therapy. Meditation, CVT and hypnosis all seemed to decrease opiates, related outcomes including opiate misuse, opium, craving and time to opiates cessation in acute pain, so the bottom line is that mind body interventions when used with opiates for acute or chronic pain provide an additional benefits of patients by reducing their scores. In, some of these interventions will decrease the duration or amount of opioids needed. Now for another main topic as symptomatic Factoria, and this comes to us from doctors. cogan Jaffe in individual. So I'm. GonNa Start this off with a confession. Invite you to join me on this phone. Let's let's just admit it. I mean we've all probably treated as symptomatic bacteria at one point or another right. However over treating. BECCARIA in many cases is not beneficial in does of course contribute to increasing rates of antibiotic resistance, so let's talk about how we can improve on this record. Just so we're all on the same page. Let's start with the definition. Symptomatic bacteria is defined as growth of over one hundred thousand colony, forming units of specific bacteria on urine culture with out in each genital urinary symptoms. Right so now let's start officer easy groups. Who Do we absolutely not treat a symptomatic bacteria in so that'd be kids, non pregnant women patients with diabetes, and those with spinal cord injuries in these groups, treatment of as symptomatic bacteria has not been shown to prevent symptomatic UCI, real damage or pilot apprentice and the story great next easy group. Who Do we automatically treat pregnant patients? Right, Jake. Current guidelines recommend screening for a symptomatic bacteria in pregnant women in their first. Treatment has shown to decrease the incidence of pile enough rightous and it may also reduce preterm birth and very low weight. Now. Let's move on to some of the more complicated cases, first patients within dwelling catheters is with a chronic enjoying catheter. Virtually all patients will end up developing bacteria, however, the rates of Ti in this patient population is actually low, and thus the Infectious Disease Society of America recommends against screening and treating these patients. The next complicated group is patients in long term, care facilities or with functional impairment. A causal relationship has. been established in patients with AIDS. Symptomatic bacteria in delirium and treatment has not been shown to have beneficial effect on clinical outcomes, so in patients with bacteria, but no genital urinary symptoms, fevers or Hema dynamic instability. Don't treat it. Look for other causes, if there's evidence of sirs or Sepsis than considered treatment unless there's more likely infectious source. That brings us to surgery. Specifically urological surgeries in surgeries that are going to cause mucosal trauma like your throat surgery in Litho, trixie screening and treatment is recommended to prevent post. OP, ut I related Sepsis, however procedures like STOSKOPF, he that do not disrupt the coastal lining. Do not require treatment. Wait wait wait. What about other elective surgeries just like hypothetically replacement treat in that case, no routine elective non urological surgeries. Require screening or treatment, so in summary always straight and screen pregnant patients other than that. It's not recommended in most patient groups. This article we're GonNa Talk. About is a practice guideline update for community acquired ammonia updated recommendations from the ATS an idea. In this practice guideline we will review the American Society and Infectious Disease Society of America's recently updated recommendations on community acquired pneumonia. These recommendations pertain to imminent competent adults who have not traveled internationally recently and also predates the covid nineteen pandemic, so check out the AF cove nineteen resource online for more updates. There are some important changes here right like namely these guidelines will have US learned some new criteria for severity hospitalization as well as a new for sign treatment recommendation for low risk patients. Okay, so let's tackle the severity criteria I severe community acquired pneumonia is defined by the presence of one major criteria. One respiratory failure requiring mechanical ventilation too severe shock, requiring as oppressors or three at least three minor criteria, which can include a be win equal to or greater than twenty confusion, a temperature below ninety seven degrees or thirty six degrees, Celsius hypertension, requiring fluid resuscitation multi bar infiltrates. A Peo- TO F. I., O. Two ratio than or equal to two hundred and fifty, a platelet countless in hundred respiratory rate greater than thirty per minute or a white blood cell count less than four thousand. And listeners to the pod newer is if you don't catch all that we can always refer to our pocket guides, or are you carrying an actual paper resource in your pocket? That's good point. It's all going to be online. The next criteria will help us to determine whether the treatment for the community choir is inpatient or outpatient, and do you remember curb sixty five for Shep well? It turns out that curb sixty five, maybe inferior to the. To the pneumonia severity index, which has more discriminative power in predicting mortality and lower false positive rates, so we should be using the PSI to aid in the clinical judgment in determining an admission or not once admitted to the hospital used the ATS idea say severity criteria to predict, ICU, admission presence of one of the major criteria is eighty four percent, sensitive and seventy percent, specific and presence of three or more of the minor criteria is fifty six percent, sensitive and ninety one percent specific for identifying patients requiring ICU admission, and it would make sense that patients with major criteria who are oppressors or mechanical ventilation will need intensive care. The guidance here I think is that there is new minor criteria that can augment our clinical judgment in determining the setting in the hospital in which patients need a higher level care. Another update is antibiotic choice when choosing antibiotics for community acquired pneumonia. It's important to take into consideration individualized risk-benefit, including allergy, local antibiotic Graham sensitivity data risk of CARDIAC ARRHYTHMIA, vascular disease, or if they have a history of clustered eum difficile infections, ATS and say no longer recommend first line treatment of cap with a macro as monotherapy. This changes because of studies showing increased macrolide resistance. STREP PNEUMONIA and associated treatment failures first line oral antibiotic treatment for low risk outpatients should be five days with either Amoxicillin one thousand milligrams three times a day, doxycycline, one hundred milligrams twice daily or a macro line, if local resistance is less than twenty five percent, however in the US the average is about thirty percent. You can refer to the text for more antibiotic options for patients with Co Morbidity or who are inpatient if you have more specific questions. Okay, so in summary in patients with community acquired ammonia. We should be using the ATS idea, say criteria for severe cap and the pneumonia severity index to guide admission and the level of hospital care, the PSI will help determine inter outpatient treatment and the ATS idea say severity criteria will guide care settings within the hospital like the like the ICU. In the outpatient setting, low risk cap patients should not be given a macro at as monotherapy when resistance is high, the rather than said, give either mock Zilin doxycycline for five days. Oh boy, the listeners are in for real treat. This is a triple poem episode of the PODCAST. That's right. Another poem this one asks does mailing blood tests to patients improved screening rates compared with usual care when it comes to colorectal cancer screening to answer this question. Dr Mark Abell looked to in twenty nineteen Meta analysis, looking at US studies that randomized patients to one of four groups, one mailed outreach, using a quack based fecal blood test to meld outreach using a fecal chemical tests, three mailed outreach, using a combined fit and mull target, DNA tests or four usual care. Usual care was waiting for the patient to be in the office to provide the screening and they found drama, please. A number needed to mail number two male. Coining this term. They found a number needed to mail of four to result in one more completed screening bursts usual care. This was consistent across the three types of testing options, and interestingly three of the studies included telephone reminders, which didn't seem to improve screening. This affirms that this type of reach has an evidence base we at. HAVE AN AWESOME POP hell team! Shout out to Angela Evelyn in Jena. That does this type of outreach for our practice and we pen personally seen similar results. All right everyone's favourite segment. It's a steps. This one looks at data flows in or Siga for preventing hospitalization for heart failure comes to us from pharmacists physician team of doctors, Tinjin and gays would from the University of Virginia Health in Charlottesville deputy cliff. LOUISON IS SGLT two inhibitor for type. Two diabetes, while not new labelling on this medication was recently revised to show that it reduces the risk of heart failure in patients with type two diabetes, as well as reduces the risk of cardiovascular. Cardiovascular death and hospitalizations in patients with existing class, two four heart failure with a reduced ejection fraction, both with and without diabetes, this steps of dresses, both of those outcomes, first safety major adverse events with this medication are hypertension, acute kidney, injury, Kito, acidosis and necrotizing fasciitis of the pair neom. This medication is Contra indicated with Jeff are of less than thirty milliliters per minute and in pregnant or lactating patients, it is also not recommended for patients with the gfr of less than forty five. Of Note, patients with both diabetes Mellitus and cardiovascular disease. War Who are high risk of cardiovascular disease are at an increased risk of developing decay a with this medication with a number needed to harm a five hundred. tolerability dropout rates between Placebo and treatment arms work. For Efficacy so for the first outcome of reducing hospitalizations in patients with heart, failure and diabetes. A four year study showed reduction in hospitalizations. With three point three percent versus two point five percent in patients taking deputy cliff, listen versus placebo giving it a number needed to treat of one hundred thirteen. For the second endpoint of reducing cardiovascular death in patients with n without diabetes study showed that it reduced cardiovascular deaths in worsening rates of heart failure with reduced ejection fraction from twenty one to sixteen percent over eighteen months with a pretty impressive number needed to treat of twenty now p price a one month supply is about five hundred dollars, which is expensive as many of the newer diabetes drug czar, but it is comparable to impact with Osen another Sglt to editor, which also has indications for decreasing cardiovascular events. But is it simple? It is taken once a day. That's pretty easy loving that. Right, so overall depth listen can be added to patients with type two diabetes with heart, failure or at high risk of cardiovascular disease to prevent hospitalizations. It can also be added to reduce cardiovascular death in patients with known heart failure with reduced ejection fraction, both with and without type two diabetes. Finally we're GONNA. Round things out with an F. pen in this looks at Acetaminophen for pain relief in Osteoarthritis, coming to us from doctors, Siebert mayor and Jensen from the Pacific northwest. This next article is very pertinent to family medicine. These authors looked at the medicine, and whether it can relieve pain in knee and hip arthritis. They reviewed a two thousand nineteen systematic review that included ten et's with thirty five hundred patients with hip and knee arthritis. So, what was the Acetaminophen dose? So is a typical dose three to four thousand milligrams per day, divided into three or four doses, and what was the primary outcome they were looking at, so they looked at functional and pain scores, including analog scales and followed patients to two to twelve. After, follow up. There were no statistical differences in pain or function between the Acetaminophen group and the Placebo groups adverse events were similar in both groups though liver function abnormalities were more common in the Acetaminophen Group. Sounds like Acetaminophen may be as effective as Hashtag wisely glucose, Amino Anchor android or lateral hero wedges for knee arthritis, the that is the Saito use those. Yeah burn on the heel edges. Unless you, your search w tyler. The authors concluded acetaminophen offers minimal pain relief in functional improvement, compared to Placebo for hip and knee, arthritis or threats better to stick within, said weight, loss, agility, training Tai, Chi and combined strengthen aerobic exercises. Guys. That's it. It's so great to have you back on. It's like nothing's changed right except that we're all quarantined in our closet because of the pandemic yeah. It's great to see everybody's closet. I've seen many a patient's closet in the last few about so. Again for joining us. Kurds. This is Romney Guy from Baylor College of Medicine Down here in Houston just signing off each year to email us at a p podcast at a p dot org, or tweet us at A. S., P. pod count. Please rate and comment on itunes. Our podcast is Jake Anderson, Joslin boker Steve. Brown Sarah Cold Tian Espinosa. Crystal, Abruzzo Genevieve Lambert Ronaldo Wilson. Ian Boy, amy, become and Meredith Rosenthal are sound and technical guru is Tyler Coles art theme song is ran recorded by the family position build Ryan have in in Jenkins. This podcast is brought to you by the residents and Faculty of the University of Arizona. College of Medicine, Phoenix Family Medicine residency. We'll talk to you soon for the neck. Addition of the American family position again.

syphilis US diabetes pneumonia American Academy of Family Phy Osteoarthritis HIV infection knee arthritis American family physician AFP Jake Anderson University of Arizona College pulmonary embolism AFC acute pain doxycycline Kelsey Venous thromboembolism Steve Brown
Morgellons Study Shows No Association with Bartonella

Morgellons Discussion

09:26 min | 2 months ago

Morgellons Study Shows No Association with Bartonella

"Guys and thank you for finding your way to discussion the podcast I'm your host Jeremy Murphy and this show is about four gallons facts. That is to say what has been able to be demonstrated. For scientific purposes. So if you hear me saying something about more gallons disease on this show. It's gotta be coming from the scientific world is been published at a prestigious journal. And science experiments that went into producing that data. Are Repeatable. So if you're looking for factual information about the gallons disease condition. Welcome to our show. I thank you for tuning into more jealous discussion the PODCAST ON ANCHOR FM. I'm your host Jeremy Murphy, and today we're GonNa talk about this great study that came out not too long ago. and. Demonstrate, something. Very important. One Question I. Get from a lot of people is is Bartonella associated with Magellan's and that's exactly what this study clears up. There's a lot of misinformation online about Bartonella particular. I've seen neuro earlier. Protocol in B. Protocol. There's nothing scientific about that and the person who's promoting that is anonymous. So that other tell you something right there. Here's what the science has to say. Patients and methods. Sarah from thirty patients, with MD were tested for antibody reactivity to antigens from the Borelli. BERGDORF group, and the relapsing fever borelli group of Spira keats tissue and or body fluids. Specimens from these patients were also tested for the presence of BB and our B. infection using our technology. In addition tissue and body fluids specimens were tested for the presence of Bartonella. Hens lay using PCR and formalin fixed skin sections from a subset of patients were tested using fluorescent institute hybridization with Bartonella. Hints lay specific DNA probes results. Zero reactively to be our if B or both was detected in sixty three percent of the cohort while positive pr testing for bb R., F. B., or both was detected in fifty three percent of the cohort overall ninety percent of patients tested positive for exposure or infection with rallyists parakeets. Bartonella, a infection was detected by PCR in skin sanctions or body fluids from twenty percent of subjects and Bartonella hens lay fish testing was positive in thirty percent of the dermatological specimen submitted for study conclusion. The study demonstrates an association between MD and positive test for both bb an rfid spike's. In conjunction with previous studies, our study provides corroborative evidence linking indeed to Borelli infection and tick-borne illness. So you guys heard it right there. It said that ninety percent of people tested positive for Borelli A- and Borelli Ella. And only thirty percents most tested positive for all thirty plus twenty. Let's just go through that. Say fifty percent. You can't assume an association if only fifty percent of your cohort is demonstrated to be host of that infectious agent. That's not how science works. So is more jealous associated with Bartonella looks like the science says, no. So. If you see somebody coming up and I promise you when you see this person, if you tell them, no, the science says, no, you're going to see them yelling screaming raising hell you're probably gonNA. Want to block them. Because they are seriously committed to this belief that Magellan's is in some way associated with Bartonella when it's very clear that the science demonstrates otherwise. Also wanted to issue I. Guess a correction I said back in the greatest imitators syphilis podcast which I'm GonNa Postal. Lincoln. The description below that the CDC to tear testing might produce a false positive for lime disease in a syphilis patient. I think actually I know that the Elisa can produce a false positive for syphilis but I don't think that's the case for the Western Blot I. Think once they get to that second part of the two tier testing. that if it was if list it would fail out there I. Don't think a Western blot for Borelli Obrador for is going to produce a false positive in a syphilis patient at the same time. However, I haven't researched this extensively to determine if that's the case or not. I was just thinking about it and I was like well that Western blood is very specific for that S- parakeet I'm not so certain that if a person does go through the two-tier process that they would necessarily. Go full circle with the full CDC criteria or filled criteria for lime diagnosis. Now on the other hand I do think a lot of physicians will take just the Elisa results and run with that when allies results can even produce a false positive in light of an Epstein Barr infection. Good news is just recently there was a new syphilis test that was produced and manufactured unless surf it's ready to be distributed yet early results seemed to. Indicate that it is way more sensitive than the Current v L. and our PR test, both of which will produce a false negative for a act of syphilis infection in league early and very late stages of the disease. By making this up, I'll post links in the description below. So y'all can see to another thing I wanted to talk about was the sparky morphology. Now, I've been looking at this recently and it seems to me that. There is a big difference between Borelli Allah and Borelli A- and Trepelo Ema. It seems to me that Borelli Ella looks like a limp noodle compared to relapsing fever Parrella and syphilis. I don't think that Barack. Unless, you can show me some different pictures of Borolia. BERGDORF right that I haven't seen. I don't think the Beryllium Dole for has the drilling capacity that it's more notorious cousin syphilis or Borolia tick more relapsing fever capable of achieving with those more tightly wound coils and longer spyro. Like I said Borelli it looks like a wet new for me. I can understand how it can cause arthritic knee but don't at the same time think that individuals who are presenting with especially severe debilitating health conditions are solely infected with Borelli Ella. I think it's highly likely that they have multitude of pathogens, which is the natural existence of bacteria in a poly microbial colonies so I think that. There needs to be some better testing which can not only look for these specific pathogens beckoned term and the composition of biofilm colonies find out. How many different kinds of species are chucked up in the BIOFILM and not in just one place in the body. But anywhere that biofilm could potentially be harbored. I, think it is possible for us to elicit these infections maybe not with the technology we have today definitely, not with the process we have today. I think I know for a fact that doctors are not performing differential diagnosis to rule out these infectious diseases and I don't understand why we play such a high importance on our public microbiology agencies when we're not even going to consider the evidence that they're able to produce. We have the NIH we have the CDC and we know that these diseases are real. So why are doctors considering them and the differential diagnosis especially for behavioral concerns? We could prevent so much disaster. If doctors just were more well educated about other possible causative agents besides the patient having something that can't be elicited wrong in their head what do you guys think feel free to leave me a message if? If you do leave me a message please let me know if I can feature you on my show because I I won't do it without your permission otherwise. That's just the way I. Try to operate. Hey if you guys like this show, definitely share it out with your friends. I, appreciate Y'all making time to tune in every day, and we'll try to keep up with the quality content regarding Magellan's disease. Regarding more gallons disease regarding more gallons, disease regarding mortgage Alonzo disease. Got It that lesson.

Bartonella Bartonella Borelli Ella syphilis Magellan relapsing fever CDC Borelli Ella Borelli Jeremy Murphy Borelli Borelli Obrador MD Borolia BERGDORF B. Protocol Barack BERGDORF group
When wellness and conspiracy collide

The Signal

19:39 min | 2 months ago

When wellness and conspiracy collide

"This is an ABC podcast. One of the things that we can all do because of these deep underground military basis and the deep. State stuff that's going on underground one of the ways to break it up. Is To send down. Turquoise Light Turquoise Light. which will Help to break up those outturns. horrifically untrue and deeply strange stuff on the Internet and some of the most extreme versions of that emanate from the wellness industry. Is there something bigger going on them? We don't know is there actually an elite that's trying to control population of the masses and some wellness influences have branched out from health and wellbeing into full blown conspiracy theory. So what's the reason behind? What at first seems like a highly unlikely? I'm Steven. Smiley and I'm Angela. And today on the signal, how conspiratorial thinking and far right ideology wound its way into the wellness industry and can it be undone. The corner of the Internet that we're looking at today is kind of a scary one in terms of its capacity for magical thinking. Yeah I mean it's also not really a corner anymore because I hugh hundred acres at least and it's growing because it's pandemic and who doesn't want to feel well during pandemic of course, we'LL MRS this idea that mind body and spirit are connected. You know I think most people dabbled around the edges could put your you're in that bucket and you could put meditation. You could put putting chlorophyll drops, your water, you know all kinds of things. Area Bogle is technology reporter with the ABC Science Unit. She's made us three pot podcast series for the ABC cold click sick all health misinformation. The last episode is about how the wellness industry for all the good. It does people also has a dockside. But this dockside I suppose it is an embrace of the conspiratorial seeing any kind of establishment thinking around health and science as the enemy. It could also be seen as well as an extreme sort of individualism like only I can decide how will be healthy and no. One can tell me what to do sort of rejection of the collective nature of health that we own to do things to keep each other healthy, and even they might be some structural barriers like Kloss income and things like that to keeping people healthy as well. As for what that dockside looks like. Ariel says, there are plenty of examples on just about every major social media platform. Would during in this pandemic, we've saying I think the tumors. Pots influences to tread and these things definitely overlap. The first is kind of the old school griff divide like just selling things that have no basis in evidence. So we've seen people selling spiritual guides to avoiding the virus or people selling we light fixtures and a mentor ward off the virus. Anyone's interesting. It's. Pretty amazing tool just briefly its programs with fans in different recipes there's a couple of. Hang rotavirus a quick video on one way to mitigate your risk of getting the evil virus. You may or may not know that ultraviolet light. Deactivates viruses I think getting a lot of questions recently about what you can do to protect yourself naturally from the virus today, I wanNA share with you these things I'm doing to help boost might immune GonNa show you is what I would consider to be the best way owning your system. This is wonderful for us right now during the virus because where we get really good antiviral under system, in fact, the competition regulator here in Australia the triple say has you know, slap some risks over this kind of thing. So there's the griff element offering people false hope through these kinds of gadgets and GIZMOS and making money off it profiting. From it and then there's the other part which is I suppose the embracing and promotion of really extreme baseless conspiracy theories. Are there a whole bunch of wellness influences who is still dislike during the normal thing but those already on the extreme edge have gone even further down and so they're talking about conspiracy theories like chewing on you know these conspiracy that has its origins in the united. States that claims there's a worldwide cabal of. Using Children Donald Trump's flashing it like that would seem to have saw little to do with wellness, and yet we're seeing Cunanan related terms and themes popping up in instagram fades of wellness influences even here in Australia everyone Dr Joe, it's been. Seventy two hours since I've seen, you guys feels like seventy two years. I really think we need to stop and ask ourselves who are we serving when we listen to people like the the WHO who have main benefactors like Bill Gates with clear agendas where's the true press against? All the information coming out human trafficking, child trafficking, the leap pedophile ring. You hear these things in a press conference at the White House in a a reporter with with free thought inquisitive nature and someone who wants to. Ask questions for the People's going to what did you did you say underground human trafficking because President I'd love to know more about that day three of the great awakening. So my tips for you today. We need to work between. You know what's going on the roll out of five G.. The threats of who universal vaccines and a chip in everybody. With the idea that there is something sinister going on that this actually could be spiritual warfare that this could actually be some elaborate plan by a minority of people who were set to cause harm to others now if there was this. Plan this intention to control the masses and depopulate. Their plans and fairly backfire because they accidentally kicked off a global mass awakening. So it's a pretty ugly, not mention dangerous patent and it's possible to trace it back to a surprising place. The birth of modern counterculture fifty or sixty years ago ideas of wellness centuries old but I think we can see some of the strongest roots for the current idea of wellness in the sixties and Seventies. When they was a, you know a big social upheaval looking at the structures of how we leave. So you can look at the women's movement that was examining how women's health being just a basket case centuries. Doctors had not taken women's pain. Seriously, we men's. Health and reproductive rights more on the table things like that. It was also the civil rights compartment because for a lot of people in that movement, the hills of marginalized communities of the black community was something that had you know being Neglected by the establishment, a lot of talk and a lot of shuffling your papers. But in terms of the of the black man in this country, there's been no perceptible change. primarily, because the white man. Has No reason to he enjoys the highest standard of living his government? Enjoys dominance in world affairs. Why should he turned to me now and say? I want to share part of my good fortune review and even at worst exploited. So we can even look at forms of medical experimentation on members of the African American community, the Tuskegee experiment we looked at a cohort of black men who had syphilis and declined to give them off fishing treatment was part of that to the test Gigi Study of untreated syphilis in the Mail Negro. When the study began, there was no cure for syphilis standard treatment consisted of Mercury and arsenic injections. Initially, the men in the study received treatments, but with the stock market crash phones were no longer available and treatments were terminated. However, researchers continue to data on the men in the expectation that funding for treatment would become available within six months. Ultimately, the six months of non treatment would continue for forty years and throughout that period, the men will never told the whole truth. So there was a lot of pushback on the way things had been around health and a fight to improve health. When you look at its history, the movements tendency to approach authority with. Has. Pretty. Understandable roots and area has interviewed a cultural historian named Natalia. Petrella, who has studied dot historical link you have my body wholesome surely goes back to the Greeks at least. But I would say it's more modern evocation you can connect. You can identifies really meaningful origins in the nineteen sixties and Seventies. These were radical movements. This was pushing back on the pharmaceutical industry. This was pushing back on a very technocratic medical field. Still these things are true. That was telling particularly women and other marginalized folks like you don't know your body. We know you best like it's everything from don't breastfeed your children to take this pill to you know go pay for this therapist and I think that a lot of the power and wellness comes from this really positive or origin right which was about people taking care of their own in charge of their own health and their own bodies and pushing back on some really damaging things my culture. So, if you try to pinpoint when the wellness industry turned a corner, it would probably be well when it became a series industry because there's always been a market for it, but the advent of social media, smartphones and fast Internet made it possible to get not only rich but also famous by reaching an audience of millions and around the same time, you start to see the erosion of trusting political. Leaders and institutions and scientific evidence most famously in Western democracies like the US and the UK. So one of the experts we spoke to Dr Stephanie Alice Baker from Sydney University of London talks about this idea of the Laura Trust Society that trust eating expertise authority has been declining and in sort of the stablishment fields government universities, media. This is on the decline. Wait coined this term low trust society. And what we really meant by that. was a kind of collective sentiment with. A deep distrust of authority ex-pats in late and you saw this two thousand sixteen. With Michael Garvin. The UK saying that people sick experts think the people in this country have had enough of experts with. Actress. To saying thank. You had Donald Trump. Saying similar thing. The experts are terrible and this is very prominent is kind of anti authoritarian stance in the house fair as well where the way in which a lot of health and wellness influences image is through stating that conventional medicine or science has in some way failed them. and. What wellness influences offer is a sort of self constructed form of authorities. So when we are engaged by wellness influence, we like how they look. We want to look like them or we lacked the content they message. They're able to build on these platforms sort of Aura of authority and expertise through the stories and anecdotes say wave One thing we talked about too is a disclaimer. A lot of influences us. So you might have watched that goop series on Netflix Group. Of course is probably one of the preeminent wellness brands around bike with troy, and so they explore all kinds of things explo-. Tripping drugs and things like that. Explore like breathing techniques and even plastic surgery kinds of things but they put a disclaimer before it saying you know. Consult your doctor this is not shouldn't be regarded as medical advice and things like that and I lot of influences do this. It's kind of out of jail free card in some ways, but it also gives like sort of puts the responsibility of fact, checking and scrutinizing information back on the audience. So this is a really important part of that kind of construction of influence and expertise as well. Hearing this explanation has solved what I always considered to be a bit of a mystery. Nomin of right wing conspiracy in amongst all that chat about love and light. On so many levels, these people will scan is. And I don't I don't mean this as a slur. But they scan hippie. Yeah. I, see that when you find some of their views marrying up with positions that are clustered on the extreme right I, mean like Cunanan is a great example it's initially pretty jarring. So a lot of this content really defies left right binary that we normally use to classify political thought. So many of these wellness influences as you've said like present as kind of counterculture role. Rejecting. The rat race of society and yet suddenly this sharing Q. and on content, which can be seen as fundamentally a pro-trump conspiracy theories. Suddenly a right wing conspiracy theory for all the bells and whistles and sorry shows people's ability. I suppose the kind of peak and shoes and the way these conspiracies kind of collapsing into each other you know some people have called a conspiracy collapses the term conspiracy fusion to. So if you are already prone to being paranoid about the influence of government maybe you're already skeptical vaccination your own children and then somebody comes with an ideology which. Leads you further down that path you know ensuring you that the government yes is evil is out to get you. You might be persuaded and that's why I think we can see these kinds of overlaps emerging in places you might be surprised that they would. This patent predates covid nineteen but for many reasons, a pandemic is perfect environment for conspiratorial thinking to drive the pandemic. You know it's a moment of fear. We're all in a moment of profound disruption. Many of us have lost jobs and health is on the line from virus, which is still very hard to understand the best scientists in the world looking virus, and we still don't know exactly how it spreads how best to protect ourselves, what treatments may be available in even whether a vaccine will emerge. So this is like a moment of extreme Anxiety, I suppose and disruption. So in that sort of Mormon throughout history, we've seen conspiracies emerged before and the spread of misinformation. So I, don't think it's surprising that we've seen this optique and that people are more likely to be seeing kind of conspiratorial and misinformation in their instagram fades or even from their favorite wellness influences, and for the that reason I think, we need to be sort of gentle about this. I don't think confronting people being aggressive and confrontational about these kinds of beliefs will serve us. You'll probably just entrench their feelings of being outside society. Even further. There's a kind of empathy that's needed here and also a better offering. So what can we offer these people? That isn't so extreme and fearful an ideology that's not so full of fear and paranoia and something that gets at how we can build a better society together. So, what you've seen in making this series and researching his whole area giving you hope that it is actually possible to extract people from this way of thinking Oh, it's hard. I think there's a spectrum you know when it comes to smaller. Misunderstandings about hill off the back of misleading facebook posts. It tells you about that doesn't really work. That's one thing when it comes to these all encompassing belief systems. That's something else entirely and when we speak to people who are experts in. The of the psychology of conspiratorial thinking they've told me it's kind of like deprogramming someone from a cult like it's not something you do just a one one or two conversations. It's something. Much more long term. Of course, there's so much that is helpful in the wellness industry because wellness incorporates nutrition and Yoga and mindfulness lots of things that really enrich people's lives. Yeah. Very much. The problem is that some of the helpful is leslie muddled up with the harmful at this point and it's all happening in the notoriously unregulated realm of social media, which is why it's hard to imagine the situation improving on its own, and that's why Ariel things the industry is really going to have to save its own reputation I. think there's some element of the wellness. Industry needing to police itself to some degree at this point I mean some wellness influences have started speaking out about some of the more extreme instance conspiratorial content that's being promoted within the community and I do think there needs to be more that you know there's like wellness call thick and come in and say what's right and what's wrong I mean I think a lot of Australians would be aware of some of the extremes of the wellness industry and some of those characters which always getting like a slap on the wrist for perking. Bizarre Gadgets, full sharing conspiracy theories. I think there is a bit of a reputational issue here that a lot of these wellness influences if not dabbling in that kind of content, cut could be todd with the same brush. An idea that this industry has sort of a propensity for. Misinformation that it's not. Evidence based that is willing to indulge all kinds of extreme thought that that that sort of. Creepy and become part of the wellness brand to, and I don't think a lot of wellness influences would be happy with that. Them. That is it from us today. So Nice to have you back Smiley. It's nice to be here and We will be back with you tomorrow by Zia. You've been listening to an ABC podcast discover more great ABC podcasts, Live Radio and exclusives on the ABC listen APP.

ABC Donald Trump reporter syphilis Smiley ABC Science Unit rotavirus Bill Gates Bogle UK Australia Netflix White House Ariel Zia
Syphilis But Make It Fashion, Cilantro Haters, Quarantine: From Typhoid to Coronavirus

The Weirdest Thing I Learned This Week

46:59 min | 10 months ago

Syphilis But Make It Fashion, Cilantro Haters, Quarantine: From Typhoid to Coronavirus

"Popular Science we report and write dozens of signs heck stories every week and while most of the stuff we stumble across makes it into our articles. We also find plenty of weird facts that we just keep around the office so we figured why not share those with you. Welcome to the weirdest thing. I learned this week from editors of Popular Science. I'm Rachel Feldman I'm eleanor comings. And I'm Claire. Meltzer Elliott so on the weirdest thing I learned this week we start by each offering up a little tease about some kind of factor story that we found in the course of reading writing reporting etc and decide which one we just absolutely have to hear more about first then. Once we've all had time to spin our little science yarns we reconvene and decide with the weirdest thing we learned this week actually was eleanor. Why don't you start with your T.'s? I would like to talk about quarantine. Wow just the concept. It's and some very specific upsetting stories that I found. Ooh Fun. Yes timely. Yes Claire yes I would like to talk about why for some people slam. Tro tastes like feet okay. I have the weird's laundry Jean. But I've never heard the comparison so there's a bunch more they can agree. I'M GONNA learn more about myself today. My fact is about syphilis and all the ways it helped shape fashion. Ooh Such a hypochondriac clear. I would love to hear more about Swan. Yeah okay totally okay. So there are three events that compelled me to share this with you and I'm going to share all three events with you before share the fact so in college when I first met my friend Lisa. Who's now one of my closest and dearest friends. Hopefully she won't hate me even though of all like every time I talk about a friend on weirdest thing or family member they like it. So hopefully that continues okay. We're having lunch together and decided to split a meal and when the meal arrived we took a bite and she literally well. We poked took bites. You know separately whatever you get the idea. She spat hers right back out and I was like who is this person. Hey that's not normal. And she was like oops. I didn't realize it had swan tro and I was like. That's also veered response to spitting something out weird explanation. I gave her the benefit of doubt. Clearly we just had dinner a couple weeks ago. It was fine sweat. Well I would like to be friends with her for the foreseeable forever. So okay then second. According to a two thousand Ten New York Times article in a television interview in two thousand and two Julia Child described the foods that she hated and she said Cilantro in an era. I don't like at all. They're both green herbs. They have kind of a dead taste to me. Yes and then. She's asked if shoot order it and she said. I would pick it out if I saw it and throw it on the floor. Amazing and third. There used to be a website on the Internet called. I hate so entre. Dot Com and the site is almost solely devoted to Haiku. People wrote expressing their. Ill will towards salon show and I wrote down a few of them to share with you. Wonderful just to show you their sheer poetic brilliance. Oh soapy flavor. Why politest thou- food that will make me wretched. Soak your dirty feet in lemon water and drink tastes like Soren tro odd awful leafy green. I hate your popularity. You smell like cat piss. This is my eve so entrepot you stink. You taste like Christmas tree in my Burrito okay. So what's the deal ever? Since my friends spat out her meal back onto her plate. I have an extremely curious. Why so much percent of the population? Somehow he'd Salon Tro to be totally transparent. I do not love or hate Sondra. It's just there to me the most neutral so neutral I don't that's what's so crazy. Is that hearing? People Describes Lawn troas neutral. I'm like no. It has one of the strongest flavors world. Why yes eight? Yeah but I yeah. I've never I'm with. I don't like I would love to know what's launch. Oh I can tell you I couldn't pick it out thinking about it now. I might have noticed scriptures nothing right. Yeah exactly seem so Rachel and some other folks think differently. They say it tastes like soap dirty feet. Christmas trees Kat. Your things to say about food and surprisingly scientists have not yet pinned down. What actually causes this thirty feet tastes? But there's a lot of interesting tidbits to share with. You is so for a long time. They thought it was solely genetic. And there were all these really good studies and anecdotal evidence to back that up my own personal anecdote anecdotes evidence. Lisa's entire family hates Swan tro except for her dad and her brother so it's just her mom and her two and her sister so it's like them so So you know. There's some interesting genetics. There and then a two thousand twelve study published in the journal Flavor Great Titles Amazing Found that of the one thousand six hundred and thirty nine people. They surveyed twenty one percent of those who identified as East. Asian said tasted like soap. Seventeen percent of Caucasians fourteen percent of those of African descent. Seven percent of South Asians four percent of Hispanics and three percent of Middle Eastern subjects. All said so. It's like a huge now ranges obviously in ethnic groups but it's definitely like even three percent is a significant part of the population. So it's like what's what's the deal and so subsequently there's been many genetic studies including like twenty three and me asking if you hate salon. Tro I love those questions. Twenty-three mutually learning so much about myself and ASPARAGUS. Yep so even then. None of those could actually account for everybody so some people who had the variance loves launch. Oh some people who had the variants hated this launcher so confusing all round. So when I was doing research on the Internet the best thing I found was really really good New York Times article written by Harold McGee. Who's a food science author? He said it's sort of. He's found through research that it's sort of a combination of neuroscience and food chemistry so according to the article flavored chemists have found that the CILANTRO aroma is created by Half dozen or dozen or so substantive and most of them are modified fragments of fat molecules called Aldehydes and the same or similar aldehydes are also found in soaps and lotions and also in the bug family of insects interesting. Yeah so soaps are made by fragmenting. Fat Molecules while with strongly alkaline lie or its equivalent and aldehydes are byproduct of this process. But why some people tend more towards soap and others don't is is still interesting so it's like you're always getting this like byproduct that tastes like soap. But why are some people like Rachel and my friend? Lisa SPITTING IT OUT. And why are some people like us? Yeah not heating it and others are just like I love Cilantro. Put it in everything. Actually I don't know if those things like call US Russia. Yeah so why? People tend towards this and others. It makes no sense. And he posed this to a bunch of neuroscientists and one of them who is actually used to be a salon show hater and has willed himself to like Sandro. Said that essentially like your senses of taste and smell are primal so if you taste something that you think he soapy your tastes like poison. You're going to say oh no this is. This is gross disgusting and remember it for next time and so people who instantly taste this. Soap like flavor are like avoid. Salon tro and so when they tasted again. It's sort of just like an enhanced sort of mechanism or a feedback pathway whereas others who don't have that initial reaction or just like Os launch or whatever and so that's why he thinks that maybe like magnified overtime lake. You the next time you do it. You will have remembered your version and it will be kind of reinforce. Yeah exactly which could make sense from a survival mechanism that like we should remember things that are poisonous to us and so this guy tried it out himself and he was like. I love food. I'm food like a Foodie and neuroscientists. I know better. So I'm going to force myself. Essentially to eat CILANTRO every single day. And he did and now he actually doesn't mind okay. I well I think it's pretty common for people who like have a really strong aversion to it because of like a genetic reason to like try to adapt is certainly I remember a time in my life where there was any saunter in anything. I like could not enjoy it. Yeah now in certain foods it can be like easy for me to ignore or I'm willing to ignore it so like an interesting lake. Genetics versus subjective. Teast thing is in my family. I've always known that. I Hate Sandro. And it's like a really strong taste to me. I don't know how I would describe it. I probably wouldn't say so but it's just like would you say dirty feet or your i. It's worth so I do. It tastes I think that a lot of beers that are hoppy tastes tree knowing what people mean when they say it. He's like Christmas tree. It's not quite that for me. It's kind of like there's no taste like salon tro to me. But it is so intense and so overpowering and unpleasant but so I found out just a couple of years ago that actually my dad was like well. Ya'll likes launcher tastes kinda bad to me but like I just learned to ignore it. 'cause like yeah you know and then my sister realized that like she loves lawn. Tro and she's like it tastes so fresh so springy and she realized that that taste isn't something that most people get she's tasting what people who quote Canis Lonzo Taste. But she just likes like so. It's like those people smell. It tastes like soap. She's she's like it's just such a lake indescribable fresh flavor. And it's like the same way to me like a hint. Describe what it tastes like. It's just so strong to her like a positive thing. It's like this really bright note in a dish I say but for me it's just bad and my Fiance Oliver also hates launchers. That makes it way easier for us to get food together as we're just like a salon throw on any of it. No cats peeing in our. I think he he hates it even more than I do. I'm like if there's some in something I will probably be okay. But if it's the like predominant herb dish it just ruined ruined for me but so interesting. See that I feel like there's no faith there is no good things that will for you not just for life no houses on show because you have no reason to force yourself dates mantra 'cause your fiance hates it just as my it's true it's true and I think I've I've liked achieved as much as I need to. In terms of like being able to ignore it so that I can be like an adult accepting food. That's given to me and not being like I got to pick out launch show. That's exactly what my my friend. She's like I just wanted to be at a restaurant with like fancy people and be able to eat so entre if it's like happens to be in a dish. Yeah I think we should get rid of. It can the devils parsley. Most of us. Don't care so why are we hearing those who do. Yeah she always when she knows if we're out together and she knows it's going to have slow like she's just like me ask for it not to be on like. I don't taste it to begin with I would. Why would I care? Yeah Yeah so. Maybe a bad guys. Wow this is taking turns me okay so then. I was going to share this little like service journalism. Eps For Rachel and other folks. But maybe we're the hormones. Just give me your advice okay. So Salon Tro Pesto. If you like crush it up not blender you have to do it like mortar and pestle style and that apparently changes like the leaf enzymes break down gradually and it converts the tied into other substances with no room. Whoa that doesn't make sense. 'cause I've definitely had like things that clearly have swan in it and I like it. Doesn't it's not just that it's not overpowering like I don't really taste it so it makes those were probably things where it was massaged fail so now all you have to carry around a more exactly. Let me just crush up. Yeah that's my fact and I- trees basically terrible person so it's okay we're gonNA take a quick break and then we'll be back with more facts in this episode of the weirdest thing I learned. This week is brought to you by anchor. If you haven't heard about anchor it's the easiest way to make a podcast. It's free their creation tools. That allow you to record. And Edit your podcast right from your phone or computer anchor distributes your podcast for you so it can be heard on spotify apple podcasts and more and you can make money on your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. Download the free anchor APP or go to anchor dot. Fm to get started. Okay we're back and yes tells about disease. I would love to so right now. Quarantine is in the north shore because of the corona virus which is a novel virus that is spreading around the world and so people are using this method of containing. Anybody who shows symptoms has been around people who show symptoms and does this idea of isolation as a way of stopping the spread of disease goes back Millennia. In leviticus. That's the Bible they describe Mosaic Law of isolation. So if you're showing signs of the white spotted disease actually not sure what they were referring to but if you show signs of this the Bible says you have to spend seven days in isolation and then the rabbi will come and he will check on you and if you are still showing signs you have seven more days and `isolation and theoretically this repeats until you either get better or die but the modern idea of quarantine has really fun story it comes from the Venetian and in thirteen seventy seven. They had city state in Croatia that decided to isolate ships and their crews for thirty days on islands offshore before letting them into Croatia because they were sick of the black death they were over it. It killed like one in four like one in three people. It was bad and so they were like you know what we're not. GonNa let these people who keep bringing the black death in so they just have to hang out and literally. The idea was like if they live than they're not sick and if they don't live than they were second so we're fine and that's okay and eventually the Venetians added this to forty days. Which is where you get Koran to Germany or quarantine. I love and what's amazing. Is that modern? Analyses have suggested that the plague the black death really takes thirty seven days to go from sort of silent incubation to death and so it was the proper amount of time they finally figured it out and so it was fairly six hundred. People were wondering men starting to show signs but yeah so the the warranted journey like really worked for them and the Venetians were also big in the development of other methods of isolation says where you get leper colony In the Middle Ages and the idea was that if you isolated people with leprosy ideally on their own island then. They wouldn't be able to like spread their disease. Which by the way isn't actually really how leprosy works. We now know you have to be have to have a certain set of genes to be susceptible in the first place. It is not at all like the black death and they called the I just thought this was interesting to go back to like. How much of this is kind of religious? They called them. Lazarenko's or like lahser houses because of the Beggar Lazarus and so they were operated by the Catholic church is kind of like charity except they were terrible and they just sent you away to an island and that continued you know well into the modern era like in the nineteenth century. Hawaii had Lazarenko's on the island of Molokai which you can like go visit. It's a national park now. But this whole idea was operating in parallel of a more recent phenomenon in French which is called court on sanitaire. And that was the idea of instead of keeping people sort of like offshore or like in this like forty day. Kind of quarantine. What you would do is you would create geographic boundaries around communities and sort of say you know healthy people should not come here or like the people inside cannot leave and this is like sort of a modern like development on this idea of the forty day quarantine and to one example. I was reading about was in Gunnison Colorado. They imposed according on themselves during the Spanish influenza so that was like in from October. Nineteen eighteen to February nineteen nineteen. They were like if you come in here. You will be arrested like you have to spend time in quarantine. And they were like a mining town and they had the railroad running through and so they had signs all over the place that we're like if you get off the train hair lake you were going to be forced into quarantine and if you don't like agree to this you will be jailed and it was one of those things where to some degree you could. Maybe say it was successful lake. They appear to maybe have had fewer deaths than neighboring communities who did receive Spanish influenza from these people on the trains but people still die. And that's where like quarantine brings up these serious concerns about human rights. Ray because like what does it mean for like a government or a public health official or whoever to say like you cannot move rate and you cannot do things anymore until we're like certain that the disease has left you so there's actually a UN council resolution that was adopted in Nineteen eighty-four called the Syracuse a principle which was supposed to sort of control this to some degree and the idea was that this could easily be like an authoritarian sort of strategy for controlling the movement of people like we have to kind of specify when a quarantine is appropriate. But I was reading through it and as with so many. Un Things. It is very vague. Ivy League. It is extremely open to interpretation. It says that a- corn needs to be based on laws what laws the laws the laws of the land. It should be legal. It should be evidence based any necessary. Proportional end gradual. So I like to do. They have any lakes you know. Is it like interactive for more insight. No that's it and so yeah like okay. I feel like given that. We're talking about like epidemic diseases that are ravaging communities. You could say. A lot of things are proportional under those circumstances. So we're kind of we're we don't really have a great control over this and this is like typhoid. Mary is the classic example of this. Have we talked about her on the podcast? But I don't believe so I I know. I'm not sure if she's actually up. Okay so I mean like typhoid. Mary is basically an American like Mitt. Right yeah you catch me up. Yeah I don't Know Mary. Yes so typhoid. Mary was living in New York and she was discovered to be an asymmetric carrier of typhoid and so is spread by fecal matter so shared bathroom facilities. It was actually a problem in like if you lived in housing where multiple families shared Bathroom Tenements tenement. Which is like where she was living and she was also specifically like a housekeeper so she would move into people's houses she would be responsible as well right lake. Because it's a fecal burn illness like okay. Let's be honest. We're all walking around with a little bit of everything. Yeah like poop poop particles everywhere everywhere and so she would live in the house. She'd use the facilities but then she'd also go and make your food right so she's like a fully integrated into your life and she never shows any symptoms so people who don't know like. Oh this woman has this disease so they they hire her and then it turns out like all of these people keep falling ill and the public health officials you know. Do Their investigative work. And they're like. Yeah this asymmetric carrier has infected over the course of her life fifty one people. Gosh and so. She is forced into state ordered isolation and she spends thirty years of her life much of his. They couldn't she couldn't get rid of it. But Yeah No cure. This is like she was born in the eighteen sixties and she ends up dying in the nineteen thirties. And so like in that time we have nothing to offer like her or the people who are being infected by here and so they're just. They literally sent her to north brother. Island in the East River like by Rikers Island. Which was like this like hospital? Sanitarium kind of place and they were like you can never leave wall and in the defense of the public health officials. I'm pretty sure they had like repeatedly asked her to like start. Working eating like look. Yeah stop interacting and her defense. How else was she going to like your have livelihood so and also I think maybe this is contested now but they. There was often the narrative that she liked didn't really believe that she had typhoid and writing it to people because she had she had no symptoms. So how are you supposed to believe? I don't believe half the things doctor tells me so like I think there was there was there seemed to be no way to contain her other than literally containing her giving her room and board since she wasn't allowed to cook for people anyone who's. Oh yeah no feel for both parties. So what are you supposed to do in this person like literally I mean it's like a classically utilitarian philosophical problem except it's like real late and what does it mean when one person can in fact this many people right? Yeah also like of course. She continued to work like I feel fine. I also need to make money. And they didn't offer her any other solution. Basically made her a public health prisoner so type in nineteen thirty eight. And you know she. She is just kind of like legendary figure. There's a lot of myths and stuff surrounding her and she has. I think you know demonstrable impact on public health in the United States in nineteen forty four. The federal government passed the Public Health Service Act which is to the first time that they gave themselves formerly the right to quote apprehend detain and examine certain infected persons who are peculiarly likely to cause the interstate spread of disease and so that is sort of where our first official Corentin Authority comes from. Today the quarantine operation is managed by the US Centers for Disease Control and prevention so the CDC and they operate at least nineteen international airport quarantine facilities as well as a land border crossing in El Paso Texas and then they're responsible for the whole region so the thinking is like similarly to the Venetians like disease will be coming from outside and we will stop the people and we will put them in these cells but but also like if cases show up. You know like in Chicago like the airport quarantine facilities like. They're the ones that are responsible for sort of helping the whole region With this work but you know similarly to I think like typhoid Mary as shows like a really interesting example of like the intersections of class and disease rate and like her need to keep providing for herself. Quarantine is also like extremely racialist so historically we have not only like leper colonies but the idea of like ethnic closer ghettos and specifically chinatowns in the United States Lake are also operating in that model. I think we don't think about how like historically they were ways of. Sigara getting people literally on the belief that they were dirty and lake carrying disease rate and that was the idea there so in the US Chinese people were made when they started emigrating in the nineteenth century to live in the sort of communities that were apart from White Americans who thought they were dirty and carrying the plague and dimmer Cisco had the plague from one thousand nine hundred ninety four and this is like a super famous case in the history of public health. Because they placed all of these really aggressive quarantines on Chinatown and then eventually on all Asians in the state and the thing was that the governor denied there was even any cases of plague in the state and said that public health officials who had been sent in by the federal government to try to control the situation. We're injecting the plague into Chinese corpses to scare people so there was all of this lake crazy fearmongering that was going on back and forth at the time. And eventually he's the governor and these sort of conspiracy theorists succeeded in kicking the public health officials out of San Francisco and the plague then continued. And it's not figure for a state and it's not as though these quarantines regimes quarantines where like a smart strategy in any sense right they're like very nonspecific and extremely prejudicial but the counter on them also meant that the public health officials can do their work. And so it's just like this ongoing thing that we're seeing with the current a virus today where there is a genuine need right to stop diseases from spreading. We know that scientifically backed quarantine is one strategy to do that. But they're just so many other things like intersect with the practice of quarantine that make it really difficult to get right. Anything can often end up hurting people as much as it ends up containing disease and helping people so you know the United States has obviously imposed quarantines related to the current virus. I was just listening this morning to people on cruise ship off of Japan on NPR. Who were like talking about how they have just learned how to tweet. Well like an imposed isolation on this cruise ship. Because they have nothing else to do. But you know the situation in Wuhan in particular where the Corona virus is thought to have originated is particularly upsetting and people are calling it a human rights violation. Because it's the city of eleven million people on lockdown and it's they're they're going around. They're checking everyone's temperatures like there. It's very very controlled and you know. The strategy is now opening up concerns. Like how will they get more medical supplies? How they get more food like when you blockade yourself you have only the resources you know behind the blockade so this is like an ongoing situation that like you know. I think it's just interesting to look back. As the corona virus situation continues to develop but also just like all future diseases right like this is one of the things that we consistently do and it's interesting to understand and not completely figured out. What are the best practices yet? Yeah yeah well even the You know the. Us has imposed a travel ban so foreign nationals who have been to China in the last fourteen years and who aren't immediate family members of citizens or legal permanent residents of the US Are just not allowed in the US. and people who are exempt from that whether they're citizens immediate family members of citizens or permanent residents have the fourteen day quarantine imposed When they come having been in China than previous days and the World Health Organization has repeatedly advised against any traveled ends because the World Health Organization says there isn't evidence that this helps significantly increases fear it disrupts economies and that like it's best to advise people not to take unnecessary travel to the center of the epidemic rate. Obviously but that it doesn't make any sense for any country to bar people who have been to another country entirely but from the US perspective you know the CDC has said on numerous occasions like we are taking drastic action because of a drastic situation. So yeah it really is like you can stay. That measures have to be evidence based but like people. Just pick on total So yeah we really don't know enough about how epidemics turn into pandemics. Which is a problem. Yes so that was my cheery have as much like hypochondria moments that I was expecting Ya. So I'm coming away slightly okay. I'm glad to hear okay. Well let's now before before things take a turn. We'll be back after a quick break with one more this episode of the weirdest thing I learned this week is brought to you by spotify on spotify. You can follow your favorite podcasts. So you never miss an episode. Plus premium users can download episodes to listen to offline wherever they are and it's super easy to share what you're listening to with friends on instagram. On spotify you can listen to all of your favorite podcasts and music artists in one place for free. You do not need a premium account if you haven't done so already be sure to download the spotify. App searched for the weirdest thing. I learned this week on spotify or browse podcasts. In the Your Library Tab also make sure to follow the weirdest thing I learned this week so you never miss an episode. Okay we're back and I'm here Jack Steph last which I've talked about before on weirdest thing because we talked about the guy who won the Nobel prize for treating syphilis by giving people malaria too. Like cook it out of them with a fever which is not a great idea but was was the best we had apparently prize-winning. Yeah but just a little a brief primer on on syphilis instead of one of those diseases that I think a lot of people think of as being like old timey about it. So it's caused by this spiral shaped bacterium. It's really. It's really spunky Very Sassy. Looking called a treble. Nima Poyton and its origin is disputed for a long time people maintained that it was in the Americas and was brought over by colonizers as they you know went back and forth but it's also possible that it was actually already endemic in Europe and just like it reaching epidemic levels in Europe. Just like happened to kind of come somewhat after expeditions to the new world. But it's interesting so like it may have just been lurking and like people had it and then all of a sudden it kind of like flared up potentially. Yeah Okay Yeah. Societal level right not a flare up an individual right and it really was something that lake just went from being not a big deal to being a really big deal. Basically outbreaks in Europe became note. Wurley around the late fourteen hundred. It showed up in Naples during a French invasion. Which is why the Italians called it the French pox but actually like if you look back at the names that have been given to syphilis. People blamed it on other countries where they were like. It's the British plague. It's the French pox. You know everybody because it would kind of like travel with. Arnie's everybody would just blame it on like the army that had just passed through but around the fifteenth century it became an epidemic and then it became endemic mimetic. So many people had it that it was just a fact of life. You didn't have an outbreak of syphilis. All of Europe was in an outbreak of civilised hundreds of years. So the symptoms these days Penicillin tends to treat syphilis pretty handily so while it's still exists and is actually in some demographics becoming more common generally penicillin. You're done you're good. You know shot to the BUTT CHEEK. Great but before antibiotics. The way tend to play out. Has that you would have. What's called a schenker? A painless. Non Itchy ulceration so really just upsetting visually that's primary. Syphilis and then secondary syphilis is a more systemic rush often affecting the hands and soles of feet and more of those also lake sores Then Legion syphilis. Which can last for years and has no symptoms and actually throughout the history of syphilis. You'll see people mistaking it for multiple diseases because of how it will like calm down for a while and then come back so a lot of the supposed cures of syphilis. We're probably just like people getting over their secondary stage and going into Layton and they'd be like great all of the hot pokers we put on your sore is. That was literally one of the cures. It worked my God and then later they'd be like you idiot. You got yourself syphilis. That is not a loved one one syphilis and then tertiary syphilis is later you know it can be decades after you become infected and you can have neurological degeneration. We're syphilis as attacking the brain. You can have heart problems vision. Problems are quite common. Ambi Soares called GOUMAS which can have a chronic centers so it can be Yeah where can be these big noncancerous growth so easily a lot of bad stuff not good not recommended? I like how they just went for it and naming their it's terrible Shankar's and what was the other one guman. Those are for foreboding. They sound like enemies. In the Mario Game Yes his troopers. Also Shankar is spelled like like Chancer I always wanted to say it like like Chaucer Shankar. But we're going to talk about how tertiary syphilis like melts your brain. We're GONNA talk about how syphilis influence a little thing called fashion. Ooh WHOA common. Have you heard of it? I know fashion about being true. All right so we're going to talk about three major fashion moments that may have been fueled by syphilitic frenzy if you will so big powdered wigs. A classic sign of wealth and excess in in many European cultures and they existed for a long time in different forms. But a lot of people think that they were really popularized by the wealthy by Louis the fourteenth of France He reigned from sixteen forty three to seventeen fifteen and he started losing his hair at age. Seventeen now of course. It's possible. He was losing his hair for any number of reasons. But it is quite widely believed that he had syphilis. Because he was kind of a bit of a tart with syphilis. You know when you get those rashes and sores cause hair loss and also just kind of like a scout the Scout and gentlemen. It's not a pleasant situation for you or for people looking upon your royal head so it's believed by some historians that powdered wigs had become popular for these ever growing populations of people who had less as a way to cover up their hair loss and their skin sores and that Louis the fourteenth had such profound hair loss from his syphilis that he was like yeah. That sounds great. Get me one of those. And once he was doing it other fashionable wealthy people were like all right. I got one. I believe that. Yeah cousin Charles. The second of England who started going grey quite young and some people think also had syphilis also jumped on he was stressed and maybe he was just stressed because of its list so he also started wearing wigs and he in particular really solidified the powdered wigs place as a symbol of like you being a member of polite society and in fact he is why judges and lawyers started to wear them around sixteen eighty until then lawyers were expected to have just like short clean hair and beards. Charles. The second had made a powdered wigs so ubiquitous with being like a nobleman. Wow that it started to become a thing that they all did. Also powdered wigs were great for lice which everybody had because while getting rid of lice and your own hair was like an arduous process. Yeah if you shave your head to where a wig then the legs were just invest the wig and you can send those to a weaker and they just boil the WIG and that would kill the. Let's just shave your head for a bit. Then you'd be bald. Then people think you had syphilis so yeah and also just fun. Fact really did syphilis. Powdered wigs were already kind of on their way out in a fashion sense by seventeen ninety five but in an attempt to fund the Napoleonic wars British politicians put a tax on hair powder. They put a tax on a bunch of luxury goods to try to come up with the money thing. Always know passing things those European and anyone wishing to use hair powder how to get an annual certificate from their local justice of the peace and it cost a Guinea a year which is something like one hundred and fifty to two hundred dollars today my God and so how did we were already like not super popular anymore but this kind of like killed them. Yeah people were not willing to pay. They should have stormed ship in the harbor. Just thrown out on the powder. Is I totally? Buy that argument about him like like syphilis but make fashion we've talked about like consumptive chic bef- where because so many rich beautiful people had to burke yellow says it kind of created this feedback loop. We're the symptoms of tuberculosis. Were like that was the height of beauty. Too Skinny and sledding. Yeah unlike flushed. Yes syphilis you just a lot of covering up as your body. Rot it off. So that tame popular but yet another possible fashion influence was the cod piece. So there's a little bit contested but into four. Dr Khan Scott Reid of Australia. Speculated and steady the proportions of the cod piece were at times so extreme and even like grotesque that he suspected there was some functional mechanism. There that it wasn't just about like highlighting your imaginary penis. And what is that? Oh a cod piece our producer. Just what is what does the copy. So it's just like the fake Gulch Mike Madden medal tights or like on your armor. I remember the first time I ever saw cod piece. My parents took me to England when I was ten and we were We were I think in the Tower of London or something you know they have all those little museums and I- rounded a corner and I was at the height cod that belong to King Henry. The eighth the one who killed all his wives and he loved God Pete. He loved cod enormous. It was like metal and like you know he's like a theoretically lumbering around in this lake chain mail and then he has enormous cod piece and I was just so shocking so this is from syphilis right so this paper argued that because of the time during which they were popular. It was probably a time when people were dealing syphilis extensively and that it may have been used to like because people had bundles of bandages on their little that this was like us to disguise that bulge by making it fashion. I did find one article where a scholar disputes this. By saying that first of all their penises were put into caught piece as ray based on what we know. So it's not like the tortuous teaming your bandages. But the argument be made in the two thousand. Four paper. Wasn't that it was that you created a bold with your bandages. You might as well make a bigger bolt. Yeah with a cod piece. So that people thought it was deliberate or if everyone has a bulge no one has a bolt. You know so. This is also addressed. We can't just. You can't just walk into your room and be like Henry. They've got a lot of syphilis. And the this person argued that no prince would take on fashion trend associated with syphilis or disease to which I say hard disagree. Yeah because Literally everyone had syphilis so there wasn't much choice and also you know kind of the whole point was that a king or prince might have to adopt one of these fashion work around because they like so. Many people had a disease that was affecting their face or body and people would just like by it. They'd be like Jack Great. He's doing it. We're all going to do it Yeah it sounds like penicillin really ruined thing. We have a fashion development but apparently you know caught pieces where popular for less than a century and we actually just don't know a ton about them like there aren't enough preserved and they weren't popular for long enough of a period that we can really discern. I know where you can find okay. And so the last fashion movement possibly propelled by seth less. So this is from a rack article by Jennifer right in two thousand fifteen about the history of sunglasses. Sunglasses were not invented because of syphilis. They have existed in various forms for centuries apparently in the twelfth century in Asia. They were you warren. By judges you couldn't discern their expression love that. Yeah I love that. But apparently in the nineteenth and twentieth century they became quite popular among people who had syphilis because there is were often quite sensitive. An so tinted glasses could make going about the world more bearable from and they also provided a helpful. Home for your fake knows Yes he just figured knows is one of the hallmarks of tertiary syphilis. Oh my gosh so people would have. These little news covers literally wearing those knows glasses. Oh my God no yeah. This is real people will put a picture of this on pop dot com. And then you put your wig on top of it. I think at that point you could. You could wear like hat's things. It was powdered wigs. We're not the fashioning meeting on powdered wigs. I guess but yeah. It was like get fooled. Anybody Oh but it it. It allowed people to not emit that you didn't have to deal with people like focusing on. Yeah if they were focusing on it they were focusing on your big metal fake nose. And you're like using syphilitic Sore Avenue. Which is you know. It's sad that people had to hide. It's sad that there wasn't a treatment for this like very systemic disease today like I said. Syphilis is pretty easily treated but it is like on the rise in certain demographics and in fact the latest report on sexually transmitted infections from the CDC noted that there is a really troubling rise in congenital syphilis which is when a newborn contracts during delivery and that can cause all sorts of problems blindness. Herbal skin disfigurement tons of developmental problems. And so yeah if you you get tested early and often including if you're pregnant and there's any chance literally any chance you may have syphilis and its kings disease you know so like don't feel about. Yeah that's true you're in great company. Yeah but yeah you know any disease that is as prolific as was is bound to influence the culture? And it did. I loved that And going out and buying a wig. Don't yeah it really is wild how much the prosthetic noses are just those costume giant glasses and noses yeah lake yes just like a really ernest version. Wow what was the weirdest thing we learned this week? Wow I feel like all the things fullest. Yeah or that have come from syphilis. Definitely civilised great debt that we do think you the weirdest thing I learned. This week is a popular science podcast. Where available on all major podcast platforms? So subscribe wherever. You're listening now. And if you like what you hear please. Rate and review us on Apple podcasts. It helps other Weirdos. Find the show for more information on the stories you heard in this episode. Come find us. At pop side Dot Com Slash. Weird you can buy our merch. Including weirdest thing t shirts tote bags and mugs upside. Dot threatless DOT COM. The show is produced by Oliver hosts including me. Rachel men with editing audio engineering by just Bodey our theme music is by Billy Cannon. If questioned suggestions are weird stories to share tweet. Us At weirdest underscores thing. Thanks for listening Weirdos.

syphilis Rachel Feldman US Lisa CDC typhoid spotify Popular Science official Mary Europe Oliver Claire Penicillin Julia Child Meltzer Elliott
Paul Ehrlich, Dyes And Drugs

A Moment of Science

01:59 min | 1 year ago

Paul Ehrlich, Dyes And Drugs

"From synthetic dyes to wonder drugs by leap of scientific imagination on today's moment of science, one hundred thirty years ago, close available and nearly as many colors as they are now but things were improving among the most exciting new chemical products of the nineteenth century, where synthetic dyes with names like mauve amaranth, and Congo. Read a German medical student. Paul early was fascinated with what he learned about dies in his anatomy, classes, in the eighteen seventies, just as some dies stick to cotton, but not the wool. Some dies, staying only certain kinds of tissue or certain parts of a cell, but not others. The die Medellin blue, for example, stains, nerve cells, but not other cells. So methylene blue highlights the nerve cells in a tissue specimen. There was what early called chemical. Affinity between the methylene blue and the nerve cells now for early. She's great leap of scientific imagination. Maybe he thought a sick person or animal could be cured with a die that was stake, only to the bacteria causing the disease. If the ride I could be found and put into the bloodstream would attack the harmful bacteria like a magic bullet leaving the regular cells. Untouched early spent most of his career developing. This idea in nineteen ninety nine he developed the first safe and effective drug to treat syphilis in people polars work on the chemical affinity of dies and his magic bullet idea who had all the way to a self drugs and other edible attics. Still in use today. This moment of science comes from Indiana University, where on the web at a moment of science dot org. I'm Don glass.

Paul Congo Don glass syphilis Indiana University one hundred thirty years
Vampire Clinic, Part 1

Stuff To Blow Your Mind

1:08:32 hr | 2 years ago

Vampire Clinic, Part 1

"When you're hiring, you don't wanna waste time. You want an efficient way to get to your shortlist of qualified candidates. That's why you need indeed, dot com. Used by over three million businesses post a job in minutes, set up screener questions than zero in on qualified candidates using intuitive online dashboard, and when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs, new users contri- for free at indeed dot com slash stuff that's indeed dot com slash stuff, terms conditions and quality standards apply. Welcome to stuff to blow your mind from how stuff works. Com. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert land and I'm Jim McCormick. And of course, since it's October, we're still in our month, long celebration of monster science, horror, science, Buki science all month. Long in today we're bringing you another entry. This time we're going to be taking a visit to the vampire clinic. That's right. We have all of these various vampire patients coming in family members, bringing them in and you know, straitjackets caskets what have you, all of them with the seemingly insatiable appetite for blood, but how? How are the doctors you're supposed to treat these various vampires because there's not simply one vampire, right? I mean, all you have to do is look around at the the the wealth of global folklore and legend to see that there are multiple varieties of vampire out there. How are we to figure out exactly what ailment might be causing any given one of them? Right. You know, I, I think. Despite the fact that sometimes when you hear people complain about the vampire movies of today, and they will specifically complain about the lack of consistency in the rules that the vampire must adhere to in order to survive or be defeated or whatever. You know what I'm talking about. Oh, they saying there needs to be more consistency. People complain like what this movie had a vampire that daytime, ooh, what this vampire didn't respond to across or what? You know what I mean? Yeah, but I feel exactly the opposite. I do not think there should be more consistency in what supernatural rules apply to vampires in the movies. I think there should be less consistency and more variety to reflect the fact that the vampire long before it emerged as as sort of twentieth century movie monster with with well established tropes and cliches that you can repeat in every single monster movie down the road. It was a, it was a folk almost full KIRO certainly not a full hero. Folk monster, monster of the people of the folk Lord, you know, spread from house to house from town to town beliefs about the dead, coming back to life beliefs about how they drain the vitality of the living. There are few things that are consistent, but other than that, there's a lot of variety. And I think one of the reasons we see a lot of variety in vampire folklore is the close association with vampires and real historical biological diseases, which of course there is plenty of variety in as well. Yeah, I mean, globally, look at them and they range from spectral forces to physical blood drinkers from humanoid monsters to things best described as great flesh bags or or KYW miracle hybrids involve beast parts right in India. We obviously love empires on the show. We are very, we're a pro vampire podcast. I think we're, we're recovering to the vampire position right vampires got a little stale for a while. They're in the movies. Well, I think the things that gets stay. Sale. Our first of all a tendency to only adhere to very certain of aspects of the vampire trope. Right and not in this, not realizing the of this rich heritage the needed could be drawing from and like how many vampire movies utilize their fascination with with knots and and then chords. You know where the some sort of intricate pattern that keeps them occupied until the sun comes up. How many, how many use the throw rice on the ground or seeds on the ground. So they have to stop and count them? Yeah, that sort of thing or or the idea which we will touch on later the the idea that you could become a vampire simply by being a magnificent lover. That's almost never explored as vampire origin. I don't think I know that one. Yeah, that that's one that's cited in one of the payers we look at. If you're just a fabulous lover, you might turn into a vampire. I wanna see that in the film. Yeah, it should. Well, I mean, it should show up because there should be more variety. Like I'm saying in the vampire movies. I think we're on the same page. About this. The other thing too is we can't always blame it on the vampire. Sometimes it's just a port movie or a poor script right informants is or any other the the many factors that can hurt a vampire film. But no matter what the baseline principle behind the vampire continues to resonate. You have this sort of human, but ultimately on human thing that wants to drain our life force. And there are any number of cultural and psychological angles to take on all of this, right? I mean, the racial treatment of the vampire legend. The vote, the emotional aspects of vampirism. Sexual issues with vampirism are long for immortality, but there's almost always this element of contagion writes some physical change in physiological other nece that can be acquired, and that's what we're going to be focusing on today. The element of contagion of disease of physiological change. We want to explore the Mets. Whole side of the vampire legend. And this is a territory that's extremely rich. So there's no way we're going to have time today to explore all of the fascinating ways that you can look at vampire legends from from a medical standpoint, but we're going to explore some of the most interesting ones right now, there's a lot of fascinating ground to cover on the subject in the link between medical conditions and diseases and the vampire lore. So this is going to be part one of a two part episode. We hope you'll stick around for both of them and some of you out there are listening to this new saying, well, Robert and Joe, I'm not really vampire fan, more of aware will fan. Well, the good news is that there's a little bit aware wolf in here to a lot of the things that we're discussing here you could potentially apply to myths of where wolf any kind of myth where people are taking on some sort of, you know, physiological otherness. Yes. And another thing I would say is that the vampire lore in the werewolf lore are not quite so distinct in their origins as they have. Become in the movies of dry. So obviously we're not going to be assuming today that vampires are real, but we can't ask what goes to explain the origins vampire folklore. And of course, as always Robert UniteR fond of emphasizing that sometimes in seeking the inspiration behind mythical beasts and monsters and that kind of thing, we sometimes underplay the potential role of creative imagination right sometimes writers and storytellers just use their imagination and make things up. And sometimes these made up stories become very popular and spread far and wide, but also sometimes mythical beasts and stories are indeed inspired by aspects of reality of nature of human history being misinterpreted as supernatural. And so we're going to look at how that last part applies to the idea of vampires. Could vampires be an example of something in nature being misinterpreted, not simply a product of creative imagination based in a misunderstanding of real biology in nature at work interpret. It it through the superstitious lenses of human culture. And of course, as we, we've, we've hinted at an obvious place to look for this kind of inspiration for vampire Lor would be in human diseases. It turns out lots of human diseases over the years have been linked to vampirism so many that we can't talk about all of them. But today we want to take a quick tour through the medical view of vampirism. So let's settle into the vampire clinic, Robert. You started to paint a picture of this earlier? Yeah. Imagine we're in a wing of dark place hospital and and Dr Lucian Sanchez is waiting to see the next patient who comes in at the vampire clinic. So we got a waiting room full of people who have brought their loved ones, suspecting they may be vampires. They may be becoming vampires. They may be at risk of becoming vampires and they've all got to see Dr Sanchez and say, tell me what's going on doc, can you help my vampire ankle and the confusing things that these different vampire patients, they, they do have a time. Drastically different characteristics. Some are pale and frothing blood summer summer or violence summer more karnal in their their desires. You know, summer creeping alone like like counter or lock from NAS Virata to others are are just waltzing in a glittering like the vampires from twilight. Surely these are all different ailments. They must surely are now, I think one patient that we can get out of the way fairly quickly, not because it's not interesting, but because it's kind of a different direction than we wanna go in today is the patient who presents to Dr Lucian Sanchez with clinical vampirism. This would be a term that is not so much a disease of the body, but this would be a mental disorder that tends to entail aspects of necrophilia of cannibalism of sadism of necrophilia and fascination with blood. This is when you get, for example, people who are actually drinking blood, not because they are soup. For natural vampires, but because they have an unfortunate mental disorder, right that may or may not be influence by existing vampire fiction, kind of giving them something to feed on with their delusions. Now, putting that aside the first patient that I think we should see in the clinic today is one that you've visited before on this podcast, Robert, which is the vampire who in fact is experiencing an infection of syphilis. Yes. Indeed, Julie Douglas and I discussed this at length in two episodes that we did on syphilis. And we recently relaunched these episodes is a single vault episode of stuff to blow your mind. So if you want the full deep dive on that, you should probably go back to the syphilis episodes. Right, but, but I'm gonna I'm gonna try and condense it here and give you like just the the vampire syphilis sell on the whole thing. So first of all, I just need to run through what is syphilis. Many of you may not know. You should know sit. Is it is still around and it has been a highly influential disease on human history. Yeah, you might say it is a a major player in the cast of bio history. Yeah, definitely. So syphilis is a chronic sexually transmitted disease caused by the Spiro keep bacterium trip Nima powder m- pallet him or t palette him. The onus spread through Europe from the mid fifteenth century onward. And despite the twentieth century advancement of antibiotics, which is really the the silver bullet that that took out a lot of the, the threat posed by syphilis a regardless civilised remains global health concern, especially when you consider that more than a million pregnant. Women pass syphilis onto unborn children each year according to the World Health Organization. This form known as congenital syphilis causes, severe disabling, and lethal health complications for the developing fetus. Now in non congenital cases, the primary infection. Of syphilis occurs when t- Paldam enters the body, leaving a sore or source at the site of transmission for three to six weeks. Then a secondary infection pops up in the weeks following the primary infection. At this point, the initial tee powder invasion is over. And now the enemy moves through the host, Arash spreads across the entire body accompanying company by very symptoms such as fever, lethargy, headaches, aches in hair loss. At this point, the the host will inter Layton or or hidden stage of the disease, and the t- Paladin invasion is still present the body, but it just no longer contagious. You can think how that kind of hidden section or any any disease that has a latency period that that makes it harder to discern exactly where the symptoms you're experiencing are coming from or what caused them. Those can help contribute to supernatural interpretations. Exactly. And and it also makes it's all the more dangerous, right? Because you you, you. Get sick, and then it seems like you get better, but it's not the case you store carrying t. Palam inside your body. And also I should point out as far as symptoms go, syphilis was often referred to as the great imitator because it would it would. The symptoms were not necessarily just, you know, ABC in a way it kind of ties in nicely what we're discussing in regards to the vampire myth, right? So it became difficult to to diagnose at times. I mean, how many diseases have flu like symptoms exactly these diseases that are easy to mistake for each other. Now there's another step all this that goes into decidedly more monstrous territory. Finally, in roughly fifteen to thirty percent of those infected. The syphilis enters its late stage also known as the tertiary stage in. It occurs ten to twenty years after the initial infection and the cavalcade of symptoms include tissue damage, muscle damage, organ damage, coordination, problems, paralysis numbness, gra-. Gradual blindness, dementia and death. This is where you really get into the period where syphilis, you know, has just disastrous debilitating effects on, say, facial features. Yeah, I've often mentioned on the show before I, if anyone wants to just a fabulous a bit of medical history, television, they should watch the knick which was the Soderbergh television series went to to seasons have Clive Owen? Yeah, Clive Owens plays doctor Thackery cutting edge physician of the of the time. But this and there's a whole plotline where he's treating an individual with syphilis, and this is the pre antibiotics. So there's only so much you can do, but it's very well done examination of syphilis in that show. So according to Slavic and comparative literature, professor, Thomas Lunga Novick commentators have often drawn a line of comparison between the vampire and hereditary syphilis, especially hereditary again being that that has passed. I'm a mother to child because this it twists and decimates the features. It can result in sharp pointy teeth. Also known as Hutchinson's teeth, long nails in a long at skulls. And so superficially, it's easy to look at extreme cases of late syphilis and compare them to something light count, like count or lock from the nineteen twenty two film NAS Virata. Oh yeah. Now the nose to tradition, especially this comes through in in later versions of the lower might not be there quite so much in earlier versions. But like in Verner Herzog's adaptation knows for two. There's a clear link between the vampire and disease, maybe not so much explicitly syphilis, but like in in Herzog's Nosferatu the vampire brings plague rats with him where he goes. Yeah, he arrives on a ship to. I mean, the way a number of contagion suddenly spread their way through an ever-widening world. And it's also been pointed out that when we. We, we don't know the exact cause of Brom Stoker's death in nineteen twelve. Some biographers do attribute his death to possibly being tertiary syphilis. So there is this idea that perhaps perhaps this is a this is a big if here the vampire story that is presented in popularized through Dracula has a direct link to the experience of syphilis. Oh, you can almost imagine kind of Kronenbourg and take on that on the composition of the story with that in mind. Now, if I were to present a clear case, I mean, there are a number of cases I think of of cinematic vampires, TV vampires that match up with this very mentioned or lock. I think you could also throw in any version of of vampire where at first they're beautiful and then like a hideous is revealed and thinking of some Hayek and from dusk till dawn, okay. But the best example is clearly count. Spiro keyed himself, which was from a a US. Military educational animated film about the dangers of syphilis what I know about this. So yeah, I recommend everyone check it out. If you just go to YouTube and you do a search for count Spiro Keat or just count syphilis. I guess it'll probably come up for that as well. It's just this this wonderful weird educational film about the dangers of syphilis. Oh, I just looked it up. I'm seeing, okay. It's got a kind of like Pink Panther kind of animation style also looks like it might have some some somewhat sexist imagery like casting the female form as like a like a target of disease delivery. Yeah, you see this a lot. I mean, I don't want to go down the syphilis, warm all too much here, but you see that a lot too, and messaging of the of of the the early twentieth century, especially where they're, they're warning men about the dangers of syphilis and in doing so, they are warning them about the dangers of females and their portray. Saying females is kind of monstrous creature ultimately like a hidden monstrous nature. Now, of course, one has to take into account that the primary target of these messages, or you know, we're talking about men that are in the military at the newest admit, yeah, listed men, but, but at the same time, it is kind of creepy. And clearly there's the strain of misogyny to the message. It's almost the same way that you couldn't just warn children about the dangers of drowning in the pool and the old Marl pit. And you had to make a monster that lived there and would pull them in. Yeah. So you can't just warn people about the dangers of unprotected sexual intercourse. You have to like sort of make the the person that they might be having sex with into a monster of some kind? Yeah. Indeed, though at at the heart though he'd we do have to drive home so syphilis. Yes, contagious and can do very debilitating things to your body and also your mind. But for the most part, not this link. Of of syphilis making anybody wanna drink blood or anything like no, no, no. So it's, I think it's an, it's an, there's a it lines up in interesting ways with the vampire myth. But yeah, I don't. I, I'm certainly not one to say, oh vampires that syphilis. Okay. So a mixed bag on this one. A few. A few things that say, this could have inspired some vampire lore, possibly, especially maybe in the modern age, but it's not a super strong link. Still those vampires have come into the clinic that that that look a little or locking in. We'll just give him some antibiotics. Yes, and see if we can't sort that out. All right. Well, we need to take a quick break and then we will be right back. Hey, Robert. It has been so long since I shaved my face. I don't remember what shaving is like, but you're looking very smooth today. So maybe you can tell me the story of shaving, oh, we'll shavings great. Provided you have the right razor to do it with, and I've had some bad experiences in the past where I've either end up having to pick up a really cheap razor, you know, bite at a gas station or something on goal, rusty's discount razors not a good deal, or I've let myself run out of razors when I'm like, gotta replace that blade, I gotta replace that blade, and then I go to shave and look for the new blade and realize that I've let myself run completely out and then it's a choice between, do I go to this interview or or what have you with either a Hobo SCRUFF or do I go with a bleeding face? It's a, it's a tough choice. Nobody should have to make far better to simply subscribe in. Have Gillette razor blades come to your door because that's my brand. I use the mach three. Oh, and now you can get Gillette quality blades at the best. Value inconvenience with Gillette, on demand with Gillette on demand, you get blades delivered directly to your door, subscribe to Gillette on demand today and get five dollars off your first order with special offer stuff fifty. That's stuff five zero at checkout. Enjoy free shipping. And every fourth order free with subscription visit Gillette online at Gillette, on demand dot com and use stuff fifty that stuff five zero for fifty percent off your first order. All right. We're back. Okay. Are you ready to look at the next patient at the dark place? Vampire clinic, let's do it. So this next one I think is going to be an I. It's going to be kind of a false trail, but an interesting one, raising some good questions about science communication in the media. So I wanna start this next one by looking at a New York Times article from nineteen eighty five by Philip imbo embasy called rare disease proposed as caused for vampires. I like how it the use the word 'cause it's not like inspiration, but like 'cause like it made vampires. And I think there that that might show up again in some other media that we should be wary of. So this article is presenting ideas by someone named Dr David h dolphin, who is a Canadian biochemist at the university of British Columbia, and Dr dolphin apparently suggested in a talk at the American Association of the advancement of. Answer AS that vampire and where wolf legends might be rooted in the effects of Porfirio diseases. Now, Porfirio diseases, I'll go into more detail about them in a bit, but they're essentially a malfunction of the body's ability to manufacture important compounds in the blood. And this malfunction of the manufacturing of these compounds leads to a build up of byproducts in the body that can be harmful about the article says about one out of every two hundred thousand people are affected. And Dr dolphin gives some reasons he thinks that Porfirio diseases may have inspired the vampire legends. So first of all vampires obviously hate the sun aversion to sunlight. Right indeed, that's one of the the rules of amperage from that that is the most commonly portrayed, I would say, especially in the modern age, actually maybe less universal in the older folk beliefs, but he says that Porfirio diseases can leave the skin extremely sensitive to sunlight, to the extent that even mild. Exposure to sunlight could cause disfiguring injury to the skin and quote caused the nose and fingers to fall off and make the lips and gums so taught that the teeth, although no larger than ordinary look like they are jutting out in a ministering animal like manner and at a time before modern medicine or modern medical understanding. This could lead someone suffering from porphyria to only leave the house at night because of the dangers of the sunlight. Quote, some victims of the disease also become very hairy. He said, conceivably, one of nature's efforts to protect the skin from the sun than so this makes a link to the where wolf legend also, of course, but apparently Dr dolphin was not the first to suggest for Syria could have contributed, where will fledge in. He might have been the first to mcvea linked to vampires. You know, this is also interesting to think about in terms of sunglasses which which you have research for an upcoming side project, I guess you'd say, but without access to Ma. Sunglasses, what could you do if you had a severe reaction to sunlight? I mean, you could wear hats and hoods, certainly, but you wouldn't be able to just throw on a pair of all encompassing spectacles than will shield your eyes from the fierce light of day. Yeah, I don't know. I wonder if what the sensitivity to light is an ocular sense. It's definitely there in the skin, but it it could affect the is as well. I don't know. You could cover yourself up with just makes me your full covered. I mean, you know this from there is that might be regarded as suspicious villagers as well. There's because there's some vampire film that I saw part of on TV ages ago. Maybe listeners can chime in. If if you don't know the name of this film, but the vampires are seeing like walking around in the daylight in, I think Texas somewhere and they're covering themselves with like soup or thick sunblock like just basically in like like pasty white face. With with big sunglasses on in and it's the near dark. I don't think it's a, no, it's not. It's not near dark. They do a little bit of walking around in the daylight like super bundled up and I love near dark to no end, but but this was something else in a, I'm suddenly remembering it for the first time in a while now I don't know whether it is right in let us know. Okay. So the next thing Dr dolphin says, I think where his theory we can explain this more later, but this is where I think he starts really going off the rails. So he says a major treatment at the time in nineteen eighty five for Porfirio conditions was the injection of a compound called hime. He is an iron containing compounds. It's got iron in it. It's it's part of a class of compounds known as the poor fear in class, and it's this. It makes part of hemoglobin in the blood and some other important molecules in the body. But essentially it's important for transporting oxygen to the body's tissues through. Blood, of course, he is a constituent of blood. It's found in human blood. So dolphins says, premodern victims of Porfirio could conceivably have treated their own condition by drinking large quantities of the blood of others which contained the hime they needed. Now, in a quote, given elsewhere and reported by the Associated Press dolphin, said, quote, my theory is that in the middle ages, if you couldn't get an injection of him, which you clearly couldn't the next best thing would be to drink a lot of blood. Now we'll get more into this in a minute, but I media tely when reading that I had some thoughts. I was like, wait a second. Now that would require the person with the Porfirio condition to either have some kind of instinct or you know, so instinctual knowledge that they should drink blood that seems unlikely or they would have to somehow acquire the knowledge that blood drinking could relieve their symptoms and how would they learn this now, it's certainly there's. There's something to be said about the about our appetite and and how. How we all we'll find ourselves sometimes craving the thing that our body needs. Right. But that's not that would be based on normal evolved cravings that are that are common to people, right. And evolution doesn't select for cravings that are only going to occur in one out of every two hundred thousand people riding, right. Yeah, the I'm sure it's making a number of people think of those scenes in various vampire films where like the hunger begins to creep in. They don't know what it is, and so the the first thing they do is they start like I'm thinking of Kronos for example. Oh yeah. Del Toro of vampire fits great one where he sees like somebody's had a nose bleed on the floor of a bathroom and his compelled to lick it off the floor. Well, I mean that that's great and supernatural vampire movies. I don't think that makes sense biologically, but we'll we'll come back to this. And other caveat here, of course, is that dolphin did not have direct evidence that the body could acquire him in the needed way by ingesting orally? Another question I'd have is, okay, even if you accept this that. That they would get him from blood by drinking blood, why? The blood of humans and not animals. Yeah, it's so much easier to acquire. Go to the butcher shopping. It's an animal. You don't have to worry about being, you know anybody dragging through the streets and executing you in the town square. I mean, unless it's a really beloved animal, obviously, another part of dolphins hypothesis is okay. So how did the bite of a Porfirio vampire turn somebody else into a vampire? Well, it didn't, but it might have seemed to dolphin quote suggested that brothers and sisters could have shared the defective gene that causes the diseases Porfirio diseases, but that only one of them might have experienced symptoms of the disease if that victim than bit sibling to get blood, the shock of the experience might have triggered an attack of the disease in the bitten sibling, thus, producing another vampire. But this is the middle ages you. So you would imagine that like just every day would be kind of shocking or or nothing would be shocking because you so none to now I don't. I'm going to present several reasons for not agreeing with this hypothesis, but I will say, at least in favor of that one vampirism does seem to be a thing that in the folklore is very often. Passed from one family member to another, right? It's not so much like, you know, the vampire goes out to the the stephie see in the movies today where they go out to the nightclub or something, and they bite a victim vampirism in the folks since very often was like, you had one sibling in the family die. And then it was assumed that that sibling would come back from the dead is a vampire to get other members of the family or other members from the community. Finally aversion to garlic dolphin says, why the fear of garlic? Well, he claims garlic contains a chemical that makes symptoms of Porfirio diseases worse. He doesn't say what that chemical is. Then the mere fact that he's bringing the garlic and does make it sound like he's really going for an all inclusive model for vampirism here. Yeah, which which I, I love that kind of thing. Like certainly I can think to a number of vampire in movies or books where they really try and roll out a nice scienc- explanation for what's happening. I think. Of Peter watts. Peter watts. Yeah, in when rose out his space vampire in that, or I'm also thinking of, I am legend pretty robust kind of scienc- explanation for what's going on. Yeah, that can be a lot of fun. I think Peter Watts's my favorite Sifi wing of a supernatural legend I've ever encountered like the way he turns vampires into a biological creature is super interesting in the book, there is blind site if anyone wants to check that out in greater detail, but this is not a scifi novel. No. So after this for a while, the seemed to really catch on in the media. This idea that Porfirio diseases could be the cause of vampire legends, or as some headlines would say, created vampires like Porfirio made people into vampires, and a lot of experts hit back really hard against this hypothesis and against the association characterizing the whole Porfirio vampire thing has. Stupid, evidentially unjustified and even harmful to people with porphyria. So just a little bit more on Porfirio diseases in general. First of all, there is more than one kind of Porfirio condition for fury as can be inherited or acquired, but most are inherited and their classed in different categories according to their symptoms. So there are cute or near logical Porfirio's, which attack the nervous system, and then there are cutaneous or dermatological Porfirio's which attack primarily the skin. And in general, Porfirio diseases constitute a malfunction of the process creating hemoglobin, which is this protein in red blood cells that carries and delivers oxygen to tissues within the body. An important part of hemoglobin is, as I mentioned earlier, the iron containing compound hime. Now, the human body manufacturers the hime it needs in bone marrow and in the liver through this complex, multi step process involving eight different key enzymes. And as this process moves along the body, the body creates these intermediate compounds known as Heym precursors, which eventually in the end of the process become him. But if there is a problem with the production process, something it's jammed up along the chemical assembly line. There, say if one of the eight key enzymes is deficient, you don't have enough of it to make the Hamied the body can end up failing to make him. And instead it will be stuck with excess unfinished precursors, sort of useless. Poor fear ends that can be harmful in excess in the body. Imagine a, you know, there's a, there's a car assembly line and it can't make the car every time. Instead you end up with these half assembled cars cramming up the where warehouse and getting in the way I will say, no matter what I just wanna I wanna hear vampire dialogue talking about him. I wanna hear it as the sling for blood, whether talking about gotta get that team need to give me some of that hayme. Where's the Hammat? I bet some. Has done. I hope so. But anyway. So what happens in in the Porfirio conditions is that there's a build up of these poor furans in the blood, the liver other tissues in this can result in the symptoms of Porfirio's. Now there, as I mentioned, there was some serious expert pushback against the dolphin hypothesis. One very succinct, good short little paper. I wanted to quote on this is called Porfirio and vampirism. Another myth in the making by an m Cox from nineteen ninety five and the postgraduate medical journal. And so Cox talks about how in the eighteenth century in eastern Europe. And a lot of a lot of the vampire legend that we talk about the folkloric vampire stuff. A lot of it is like eighteenth nineteenth century eastern Europe that that is like ground zero vampire belief, right? And it's definitely this is the time period in the particular strains of the folklore that have had the greatest influence on western, an ultimately global. Ideas of the vampire? Yeah, not to discount some of the excellent strains of the eastern vampire that have made their way into say Hong Kong cinema and. Oh, yeah. And he's cinema? Yeah, like the hopping vampire of China's to, sadly I don't think any of our discussions today look for like hopping as a symptom, so we're gonna have to. We're going to have to come back to that a future installment of vampire clinic. Oh, well, those are great vampires, but yeah, so I think we're talking more about the versions that are inspired by these sort of disease eastern European vampires. Yes. Where as she says, the belief in vampires was absolutely rampant. She says, quote, so prevalent was the belief in the existence of a literal vampire that the Austrians are occupying Serbia in the seventeenth thirties, dispatched a team of medical officers to a Serbian town to investigate the weekly exonerations and killing of the dead weekly. So basically just bands of just obsessed Europeans going around his digging up the graves sir. Searching for evidence of that vampire and then pulverizing the corpse as necessary. I remember there being one account and I'm sorry, I don't have citation for this, but I remember reading this one of alleged treatment of the vampire case where they dug up the grave of a of a body of suspected vampire and they made the body into paste, whoa, which everyone in eight on crackers. Wow, I've never heard that one. Yeah, I'll have to look that one up again and see if there's a to what degree. There's any validity to that in this thing about so many of these these folktales and and alleged vampire traditions. Well, think about a very common thing is of course, a decapitating. The corpse separating the head from the body. There's burning involved, burning parts of the body, burning the whole body. There's things you can do the bones. There's a running an iron rod through it. There's putting a stake in the one of the ones I really think of the just sticks in my mind is I believe it's. I, I'm sorry if I'm wrong about this. I believe it was from Venice where they found a body with a brick show. Oh God, remember that one. But anyway, back to this paper. So so cock says, at the time of her writing, the idea of vampirism being inspired by Porfirio had become deeply embedded in popular consciousness like this idea had really caught on and she traces this idea back to this nineteen eighty five New York Times article and Dr dolphin. The one that I was just talking about. And so Cox examines the idea wh what if Porfirio did inspire vampirism? She says the main type of Porfirio disease that could be applied to the situation is congenital Irith rapport, attic porphyria, and she listened facts about this type of Porfirio. One is that at the time of this publication, it was so rare that only about two hundred cases had ever been diagnosed. It's inherited it first manifested in early childhood, and it leaves carriers with extreme sensitivity to the sun so much that the skin can blister on. To sunlight. And and so this is the part where where dolphins hypothesis had some validity to it, there's the idea that that exposure to the sun could be extremely injurious and and also people suffering from this disease can benefit from blood transfusions. So here was dolphins point sensitive to sunlight, and they need blood, but then there are some major problems with this picture of the Porfirio vampire. Number one Cox actually says, sensitivity to sunlight is not a universal part of traditional folk vampire beliefs. It shows up sometimes, but she cites how in nineteenth century Europe, they're all these reported sightings of vampires in the daytime. Furthermore, and this is maybe the most important part people with throw poi-. Attic Porfirio do not crave blood and cannot benefit from drinking. It Cox writes, quote, the enzyme Hamilton necessary to alleviate the symptoms is not absorbed intact on oral ingestion and drinking. Blood would have no beneficial effect for the sufferer. So like other than sensitivity to sunlight, the biggest part of dolphins hypothesis is that what they would maybe need to drink blood in order to treat their symptoms, but that wouldn't work now, it sounds like they would need to inject the blood, which a they probably they almost certainly did not have the equipment to do, and it wouldn't know to do and they would not do in, but then also would be extremely disastrous to even attempt. Right without knowledge of of blood types. Yeah, and and sterilization. So yeah, I mean, he's crazy. Yeah. But also she says, the fact that vampire reports and beliefs were absolutely rampant in say, eighteenth century eastern Europe, she gives that example, you know, they're all over the place. It's inconsistent with our array, throw. Poetic Porfirio is an extremely rare version of an already rare congenital disease. Right? It's certainly this is a case where you are, you're inclined to say, look, dolphin. Pullback a little on it and and because I could conceivably see, you know, it's like, okay, super rare. One person had it once and then it was popularized and it became part of a general moral panic y. You know a widespread panic regarding the possibility of vampirism, but it'd be when you start really digging in your heels and saying, this is the model. This is the explanation. This is patient zero, four vampirism. Then you start getting into trouble. I think, yeah, I, I agree. She mentions how despite all of this stuff that she's just explained, the learning channel recently ran a program on vampires featuring Dr dolphin and pumping the Porfirio hypothesis. What's the learning channel, the learning channel, it's channel on TV. Oh, yeah. No, no. But I think some of our listeners might not be aware that this is what TLC used to be the learning channel. There was a time when TLC stood for something and it was the learning Chen. What does it stand for now? Nothing. Letters? Yes, just like KFC I said, no, no, that does not have anything to do with the state or with the bird with the cooking method is just similar as you know. I like some letters better than others, KFC or Goodwin's one more thing I do want to mention here, and I think we should also just mention this is a a general note about our episode. I, I read another paper from nineteen ninety in perspectives in biology and medicine by Mary Winkler and Karl Anderson called vampires, Porfirio and the media medicalisation of myth. And essentially the authors here takes strong exception to the linking of the vampire legend with Porfirio diseases. And they said this, this link resembled rumor mongering more than science. It had never even been formally presented in a scientific journal. It was just sort of like some scientists with a funny idea, talking to the media and the media running with it an irresponsible way, but they mentioned, you know this, this kind of thing could also be damaging to the actual image of these. Seizes and to people who hold them. Like they quote a guy who had read who had a Porfirio condition who had read stuff like this, and it said like, wait, does this mean I'm descended from vampires now? And I think that should just remind us, like while this is a super interesting question to to try to say like, is this vampire legend rooted in actual medical conditions. We should remember not to be insensitive about the medical conditions. Real people have these and you know it's good not to characterize these people as vampires recognize them as people with medical conditions. Now that being said, if you were to pinpoint in a cinematic vampires, TV vampires at cetera, that the kind of line up with this disease, which ones would you pick? I guess I'll have to come back to that. I, I don't know which one this would line up with, but I will say in general, my verdict on porphyria as the the explanation for the vampire lore. Thumbs down. I don't think this one carries much weight at all conditions. Rare would not actually result in drinking blood about the only thing it has going forward is the association with sensitivity sunlight, which is not even a universal part of the myth. All right. Well, on that note, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we will continue to diagnose. Are vampires? Hello earth, actually. Hello universe? Yes, we are here to tell you that in addition to Tuesdays and Thursdays, when you can get your regular stuff, you should know episodes just as you always have the last ten thousand years await tenure tenures. We're now adding a whole new episode of spin off show. That's really the same show. It's just a shorter episode. It's called short stuff. Yeah. We said, hey, sometimes we have topics that maybe aren't robust enough to fill out a full forty five minutes stuff. He shouldn't have pursued though. We don't want to shortchange these topics these people. And so let's just make them short get over here short stuff and jumping our feet right exact. It's kind of like the Roper to our three's company. Yeah, or it's kinda like after mash to mash. Exactly. Although it's like neither one of those because those were regular links. This is shorter everybody. Yep. So you can go to apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts or just look for it in your feet, every Wednesday from your friends, Josh Chokhin, Jerry at stuff you should know shorter is sometimes better. All right. We're back. So Robert, one thing that I often think about with the vampire lore is the vampires traditional association with the children of the night that the creatures of the forest with wild beasts, like wolves and bats. Yeah. And just the overall bestial nature of the vampire this this film has its problems for sure, but Brahms Stoker's Dracula which is really Francis. Ford Coppola Dracula. What problems are you talking about? I can't think of any. Oh, I guess I still hold a grudge against it based on kind of a nitpicky fact, and that is that when quote unquote Brom Stoker's Dracula came out and there was a cool movie branded copy of Brahms Dracula you could buy at the bookstore, but. Okay. Yeah, but then also there was a novelization of the film? No, yes. No, which is I, I can't remember what they called it. I guess it was like Francis Ford Coppola Brown stickers. Dracula did the did the author of this novelization slip and stop calling him Count Dracula and just start calling him Gary old night. And I don't know. I never read it, but I remember seeing it on the bookshelves when that film came out and it made me mad. I was like, no. If if you have to do a novelization of this film, then it is not Brown Stoker's Dracula. Right? Because if it were Brom soccer's Dracula then the original book is the novelization of the film. What is going on that is a perversion of our modern times from Stoker's. Dracula is a great book. It's a very readable book toad for modern audiences. You know, I wouldn't put it on the same level as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. No, but it is. It's a great book, very readable. There was there was no need. I mean, I'm glad that that somebody got novelization job out of it, but. It just seemed kind of pointless that being said, a fabulously fun film. Yes, it's did shows us a number of different ideas of what the vampire could be. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that movie is great because it it just embraces the fact that the story is bonkers, and it asks us essentially to side with the count and not with the human heroes who were fighting him, right? I love how Anthony Hopkins says van Helsing just out of his mind and running around like beheading she vampires left and Ryan. Yeah, there's a great line. One of my favorite parts of it is they, they're talking about after he beheads Lucy westerner who you know, turned into a vampire Queen who has turned into a vampire bride. You know, he, they're like, was she in pain? And he says something like, yes, she was in great pain, but then I cut off our head and drove a stake through hard and burned it. And then she found peace. Well, when Anthony Hopkins delivers the line more vested but roll through a quick, the vary. Versions of the vampire that Gary Oldman takes in this film. Oh, let's see. Well, he's definitely at some point I think about like a big bat creatures almost like a dog bat, hybrid at some point. He's some kind of bipedal wolf thing where wolf yeti kinda creature at another point. He's just seems just like a straightforward wolf for FOX or something. Quadrupedal candidate. Are there other ones? Well, you could certainly, those are the more bestial forms. And then of course he also takes the form of extremely creepy old man with with fabulous hair. Oh yeah, and gray hair that hair. That's that's what the movies all about is the Gary Oldman bun? Yes. And then of course, there's the young Gary Oldman the the sexy vampire, so so it's it's, it's interesting that it manages to encompass all of these different versions of what vampire could be, but it certainly hits that animal note than idea of the vampire. Is this bloodthirsty beast? Yeah. And I like that. It actually does include that and puts it alongside him being a smooth swamp sunglasses, top hat wearing dandy about town in London. I also love his armor in that film. I'm on getting the historical Vlad vampire that we get. Oh, and yeah, the muscles, there's it's so rich. There's so much good stuff, but you're right. Yeah, it does emphasize the beast deal aspects. He turns into animals in the movie in this latest to our next disease. In our discussion here, as we inevitably try to diagnose the vampire that's brought into our clinic that is snarling and been biting lunging at all of our the other patients and doctors. This brings us to rabies. All right. Now let's it's easy to discount the horror of rabies especially, you know, our modern world Louis Pasteur devised a preventative vaccine back in eighteen eighty five. And if treated early the disease is one hundred percent treatable. Yeah, but rabies is an old enemy references to the disease. Date back more than four thousand years to the ancient Mesopotamia ins that the very dawn of recorded history. So it's it's been with us a while as breakdown what it does. Rabies is a viral disease that attacks the central nervous system. The virus enters the body has the spinal column and head straight to the brain for replication and destruction, and it's distressing enough to see the ravages of rabies in an animal. But in humans, it's it's even more horrific. There are several different strains of rabies, but we can break the virus down into two main types. Okay. On one hand, there's a paralytic rabies and this is typified by wariness and lethargy, but then encephalitis rabies is more common, and this is where we see foaming at the mouth. We see increased agitation, aggression, disorientation hallucinations, whatever the strain though it all culminates in Peru. Telesis and death. So I mean, I could basically stop there and I think everyone would see how this lines up with various interpretations of vampire. Right, you you? I mean, you're talking about a virus that attacks the nervous system and causes erotic behavior. And whenever we think of erotic behavior, we think, okay. Well, maybe that could cause people who didn't understand what was going on to think this person's turning into a monster. Right? And then towards the end, they're incapacitated and kind of in the state of of of of living death, right? Yeah. But then again, you think about how every virus diseases need a route of transmission and very often diseases are evolutionary smart like a disease that is spread by aerosolize droplets in the air tends to make people coffin sneeze. You know, the disease makes you coffin sneeze, so it can get to other carriers. Yeah, and they're the rabies virus is an ingenious hijacker in this regard because once it takes over a host in needs to spread. Yes, that's generic mission in order to fulfil this mission, it generates the symptoms of that that mad dog rage in the foaming mouth because guess what's in that saliva. Guess what's in that foam? That's where the rabies is ready to spread the next animal or human of the ABI steel bite, and what's more the virus instils a strong aversion to water in its victim animal or human to ensure this frothy mouthful of doom doesn't get washed away. Oh yeah, this is where the the hydrophobia like if you ever read that old yeller where they talk about rabies and they call it hydrophobia I only remember one moment in Hiller and and I think everyone knows which moment that is. Well, I, you know, you read the older sources and they call rabies hydrophobia and I think this is because it it tends to cause difficulty swallowing that makes people not able or want to drink water. Interestingly enough, this came up in her bacilus skep- Assad as well. So just a health note, if you're ever bitten by a wild animal, especially a bat. Seek medical attention as soon as possible. Because while again it is one hundred percent treatable in its early stages. Rabies is almost completely fatal in the long term. So if left untreated, it is almost certainly a death sentence. So seek care early. Yes. So it makes sense that we might create monsters out of rabies out of observing cases of rabies, right? And the idea that there might be a vampire connection. This has been explored in the literature as well. The hypothesis goes back, I would say, at least as far as nineteen eighty two, the work of Gomez Alonzo j Robbie a- and I'll get to one of Gomez, Alonzo's papers in a bid here. But yeah, a lot of people have chimed in on this. So the rabies vampire connection is seemingly pretty strong. Yeah, I read it mentioned back in a just a letter from nineteen Ninety-two in the annals of internal medicine by a believe, a Dutch da. Doctor named Alex hike, who wrote a letter just about the ties between the possible ties between vampires and rabies, and he writes, quote, although we may still be fascinated by the vampire legend. We all know that the human vampire never really existed or did he bump bump on a bite from an irrationally aggressive animal leads to aggressively psychotic behavior in the human victim? Doesn't it sound like rabies in the agony of rabies? All affected males may display such a hyper excitable phase even otherwise placid, insect terrorist bats, have been reported to attack humans and other mammals in human rabies. A hyper excitable. Psychotic phases also seen, although genuine biting behavior has rarely been reported and he, he mentions a paper by a doctor named Lynch Jorn, which is case studies of rabies that quote, mentions a fifteen year old, Brad boy who bit off one of his mother's fingertips. So. So it sounds like in human rabies infections, biting is not a universal characteristic. But it can't happen again. It would only really have to happen once. Yeah, for the story to really begin to generate. Right. So I was looking at one of these papers by a Juan Gomez Alonzo MD who wrote about it in rabies a possible explanation for the vampire legend published in the journal historical neurology from nineteen ninety eight in which the author looks at the hypothesis. So he starts off in this paper pointing out that yes, in vampire legends of European folklore. A you often see dogs and other beasts wrapped up in the whole scenario. The vampire could take the form of a beast and in the form of dog, if you kill all the dogs of a village, and it's also also may be associated with wolves or cats at cetera. I don't know if there's any real connection here, but I mean, it makes me think about the way that animals like cats, especially are also associated with witchcraft. If you're giving a Christian demon -nology take on the vampire legend like, you know which cats were off. And thought to be the familiar of witches. Now in this paper, he also prizes too nice overall cited, look at some of the frequent attributes of of that. Some of these we've already discussed like the idea that their mostly nocturnal, I love this the you could become a vampire by being attacked by vamp eating the flesh of animals killed by vamps quote, having been a great lover unquote or having died of plague, rabies or other illnesses. Also, if a Corp solid zone reflection in a mirror, it could go vamp. What? Yeah. How would the corporate see the reflection just don't hold any mirrors up to corpses then you don't risk at all? Yeah. Yeah, this course ties into the whole supernatural aspect of mirrors and the fact that most people really don't understand how ears work, but, but that's another another topic for another episode. Also, animals walking over a grave could also do the trick. Wow. Yeah. He writes, quote, signs that made a cadaver suspicious in. -cluded good, external appearance a swollen body full of liquid blood that flowed out of the mouth prominent genitalia and the emission of a cry when a stake was driven into it. Well, I'm a little confused by that last one. The emission of the cry. Yeah. Well, there this one's easily explained. I mean, the idea if you're exhuming a body and it is say bloated with various gasses due to decomposition if you press on it or certainly drive a stake into its heart. Some sort of sound might emerge. It's kind of sound like a sigh potentially or like sort of grotesque, like net growth far, kind of a situation. I don't know. Well, I mean, this is another thing that has been considered a very important part of the formation of vampire legends, which is the counterintuitive appearance of exumed corpses that sometimes you would dig up a body and people would look at it and then think that doesn't look like I would expect a decomposing body to locate instead something about it looks like it's, you know, recently been alive or doing stuff like it might have blood running from the mouth, or it might somehow look healthy and bloated in the face. Like it's been gorging. Yeah. I mean, the bloating of corpses alone, you think of that and I do not encourage anyone to look up images of bloated corpses. No. But if you do, you will be founded how bloated things can get. Yeah, and I could see over one might think, oh, well, this is this is an absurdly bloated version of this individual. We used to see around town. How do they get so bloated? Perhaps they have been eating something. Perhaps they have been drinking something. Yeah, that's sort of the full Clark. He would apply to see. A corpse look like this. Another thing about the corpses that's been observed as the idea that during post mortem decomposition, sometimes skin will pull back away from things like fingernails and teeth. You know, the surrounding tissue will drawback giving the appearance that things like fingernails and teeth have grown longer in the grave. And so a lot of stuff like this, just ways that a corpse doesn't look like a person would naively assume it should look after. It's been exumed that probably played a large role in contributing to the vampire legend. And then if you get to the point where you're you're existing corpses to look for signs of supernatural on life. I mean, you're probably gonna find it. Oh, there's a sunk cost and digging up that gray. Oh, some of the papers we've been reading for this point out, you know, one of the things about the vampire records of vampire control activities is that pretty much anytime people dug up a corpse to find a vampire turns out yet it was a vampire. Yeah. I mean, maybe the stories of it's a negative. Sorry, everybody we can just go home. Let's bury this thing again. Those don't make it into the newspaper. Now in this paper Gomez, Alonzo also discusses the seeming link between vampire behavior and limbic system disorders. He says, quote, this brutish part of the brain plays a central role in the regulation of emotion behavior in patients with diseases such as rabies and epilepsy. A clear link has been found between aggressiveness and the dysfunction of some limbic system regions. I, the hypothalamus, the amid Deloitte complex. The hippocampus likewise relation between a has been shown in humans between altered sexual behavior in some limbic system structures such as the septa Larrea nocturnal activity may be present in patients with insomnia or disruption of the sleep. Wake cycle, both have been reported in disorders of the anterior hypothalamus, so is showing that there could be some clear behavioral links. Between things, you might expect to see a person who's suffering the neuro degenerative effects of rabies and things that appear in the vampire lore. Exactly. And of course, obviously, we have this animal interaction situation in vampire some vampire legends which gives us a a link to zoonosis and rabies is a disease that best fit so symptoms. It is transferred by animals and then can be transferred from human to human via kind of animalistic attacks in some cases. So yeah, the rabid human may froth at the mouth, their facial muscles may twitch and reveal their teeth, and these episodes may be triggered. He says, by changes in the air in the will in water, or in even light, like walking out into, say, bright sunlight, and then they may act the individual with rabies may act with furious aggression towards other humans. Meanwhile, during quiet intervals, they may lie in bed. Mentally alert, but with the work of a look like frozen horror, perhaps drooling bloody saliva from their mouths. Nightmares. Elucidations may emerge during this phase as well, which certainly can add to the sense of horror end. Again, this is a phase that we think family see very little off in this day and age due to early rabies intervention in human patients. I mean, generally speaking, I think we've gotten to the point in most places where if someone has been bitten by a wild animal or even if you've been bitten by a pet, like a child is bit by a pet dog, I belong to enough neighborhood groups on on Facebook. They see that that is instantly panic moment because we've been, we've kind of rehearsed this, you know, like what, if there's a there is a what if the animal is it already rapid like this has to be taken care of in advance? Yeah, I know. I mean, one thing I've read about is that they're definitely is more of a rabies threat in, say, a more developing parts of the world. And where a lot of times it doesn't necessarily come from like, you know, the the wild wolf or something, but comes from animals like straight. Aw. In addition to to this behavior, though, it's also hyper sexual activity has been observed, prolonged erections. The author says, quote, the literature reports cases of rabid patients who practiced intercourse up to twenty times a day and who made violent rape attempts. No. So the connection between animals is clear here and the connection between not only human and animal behavior bid, but between like normal human behavior in like animalistic savage models of how humans could behave. And he says, it's also worth noting that while the bite is the main way, rabies is transmitted. He says, there are accounts in the literature of sexual transmission as well. And this would time that you mentioned earlier the idea that some of the vampire folklore has highlights I dunno, questionable sexual activity or what they would have considered questionable sexual activity? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then he also mentioned that, you know, biting is not necessarily. I mean, biting could be part of sexual activity as well. I mean, they're sexual activity is kind of a big tent that contains a lot of different things in contained in can also encompass a number of different bodily fluids which could contain the rabies sort of a carnival of disease vectors. Yes. Now rabies is also, this is interesting, seven times more likely in males than in females. He tells us thus lining up with the frequent masculine vampire trope, especially those breath. He says, was president during the that time also worth noting. He says that in the eighteen hundreds there were there was a fairly large rabies epidemic among animals and places like Hungary, rabid animals typically die within two weeks by physio or cardiorespiratory arrest and modes of death. In this case may produce a persistence of liquid blood turgid genitalia. And the emission of sperm, though he also notes though that when wild animals presented these symptoms or certainly the the, the human exhibited, these these symptoms, it was probably more likely that they would be killed before they reach this point, especially if there's a pervasive vampire myth in in the area. One can only imagine. He also argues that you know, this is likely to be a connection between rabies and many Greek myths and aware wolf legend as well. All right. So Robert de you have a verdict on the validity of this and explaining the inspiration vampire lore. I think we've said so far that syphilis might be a good candidate for explaining some cases, especially maybe some more modern cases. We think that Porfirio is not a good explanation of vampire of the origin of vampire lore. What do you think about rabies? Well, I think this the overall fear that the fear of our bestial nature, the fear of behaving like an animal of giving ourselves. Over entirely too violent or karnal impulses that that is a, that's a fear that will never go away and it's just part of our human nature. In this case, we do have a medical condition that that lines up with that fear so well. So yeah, I, I, I'm pretty sold on the idea that if there were deceiving notable cases of human rabies, much less than epidemic could definitely have a could send shockwaves through the folkloric traditions of given region. But then again, a, I'm I'm hesitant to hesitant I'm I'm opposed to saying vamp her vampirism equals rabies. Oh yeah. I think that that would be going a little too far, but they did line up an interesting ways. We've tried to emphasize several times. I think that we are not going to push vampirism equals some disease or some condition here. We know that the inspiration behind folklore and and believe. In mythical beasts and stuff is number one more complex than that. Number two, it's influenced by pure creative imagination. Number three, the connections we make with known medical diseases today are all is all just inferences. You know, we, we don't know for sure what was going on then, what caused it? Yeah. I will say, if you if you want to learn more about rabies. You should check out. I, I honestly can't remember remember that was a radio lab or this American life. I think it was radio lab. They did an episode on rabies in it includes audio recordings or snippet of an audio recording of a human rabies case. And you hear this this, like the guttural howling of the individual. So listen to that, it'll it'll haunt you for the rest of your life. And if you think you ever ABC's exposure by all means get to a hospital immediately. Absolutely. All right. Well, I think we have to call it there for today, but join us again next time for part two of our two part exploration of the link between medical conditions and the origins of the vampire legend. That's right. The clinic's going to close for a day, but then it's going to reopen on Thursday and we will look for even more on this topic. We, we figured this would be a natural episode displined into because I think everybody's down for vampires during the month of October, and there's just a lot to talk about here. In the meantime, if you wanna check out. More episodes of stuff to blow your mind, especially our our seasonal offerings that occur every October head on over to stuff to blow your mind dot com. That's the mothership. That's where you'll find all the episodes of the the show you'll find links out to our various social media accounts. You'll find tab at the top of the page for our store of visit our store, and you can pick up some cool swags and t-shirts and stickers, coffee mugs, throw pillows framed. Are you name it? It's vailable. 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syphilis Porfirio Porfirio Europe Robert Rabies Dr dolphin m Cox India New York Times Brahms Stoker Robert land Anthony Hopkins virus diseases Mets Gary Oldman karnal Peter watts