19 Episode results for "Stimson"
DIPLOMA - TAGALOG FICTION STORIES | MGA KWENTONG MULTO
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BONUS: From Nation State to Empire State
"I'm Jeremy Scahill coming from the offices of the intercept in New York City, and this is a special bonus episode of intercepted. Most analysis of Donald Trump's election to the US presidency in twenty sixteen focuses on immediate causes, and of course now the effects the last week I had a chance to do an event with someone who has been on the show a couple of times and why you professor Nikial Paul saying he's the author of the books, black as a country and race and America's long war. He's also the founding co director of NYU's prison education project. This was an event in Santa Fe, New Mexico sponsored by the land and foundation, and it was held at the historic lenses theater as I sat in the audience listening to Nikila lls incredible historical speech. I thought I have to share this with our intercepted audience, taking a longer historical view. Nikial stretches three arcs of US history that have yielded the. Durable commitments to racism militarism and unequal class power that have sharpened over the past two decades in this country. Considering the historical development of the United States as an Empire State rather than as a nation state. He argues that it's essential to understanding what it has meant and what it might mean going forward to bend the future towards greater equality and Justice, both in the United States and in its relationship to the wider world. The election of Donald Trump and the failure of Hillary Clinton may be Nikiel argues the clearest signals yet of the decline of US empire rather than a cause for pessimism. Nikila argues that this moment is an opportunity to enliven a new politics and begin new story. But only if we're honest about our past here is professor Nikial. Paul. Sing. We are the products of our past and not knowing that passed condemns us to repeat it. It's been said by very famous theorist of the nation state that nations live and survive by forgetting. And that's Ernst or non who wrote around the turn of the twentieth century. But what Ron didn't say was that forgetting is usually about covering over a crime. It's usually a perogatives of privilege and some are compelled to remember. Usually those who are the victims of those societies that go on in their continued forgetting and covering over and laundering of the crimes. They have committed an obviously, I say this to you tonight at a very powerful moment in which that is exactly what is at stake in the confirmation hearings that are going on for the US supreme court, will we be allowed to remember? We'll those who have been traumatized. Be allowed to be heard, will their stories get told our, will they once again, be covered over silenced forgotten. This is what's at stake right now. And I think we have an incredible opportunity because we know so much more now than we did before. Now, when I talk about forgetting, I'm not just talking about what's in the past, but about ignorance what is been hidden in plain sight, what has been hidden in plain sight. This is a country that has been involved in a forever war. Most of my students at NYU do not know a time when the the country has not been at war, and yet nobody talks about it. It's as if sometimes it's not even happening. We live in a country that has built the largest penal complex in human history and yet, do we see the prisons, do we see the damage that's done to the communities from which people in prison are taken. And we live in an ecology that is under siege. I was reading about the rivers flowing out of North Carolina into the sea, and it's visible from NASA from space from NASA cameras, the flu via of hog feces, and chicken parts and coal. Ash that's flowing into the Atlantic Ocean as we speak. And yet. It is all hidden in plain sight, and it is all part of the accumulated wreckage of what we have not been allowed to see and know and remember. And last of of course we face the cultures of corruption and impunity extending from elite dorm rooms to corporate boardrooms to judicial chambers that are now being exposed. If we are willing to see what has happened and draw the right conclusions from it. Now, clearly we have a president who embodies all of this and more. But at the outset, at least I don't want to dwell on Trump. I wanna think longer and harder about how we got here. What are the arcs of history that define our present state of forgetting. The first arc is the arc that begins with the founding of the United States, and it's an arc that also begins with slavery with land theft and with colonization. In the early Republic, twenty five percent of the population are African slaves. In many ways, the American revolution is less about the vaunted freedom from taxation without representation than about the freedom to accumulate more slaves. The freedom to dispossess more of the indigenous land than was allowed under the British crown. And what we see at the origins of the American Republic is the acceleration of both the processes of slavery. Both the overseas sleigh slave trade, which is going to be in its waning decades, the beginning of an internal slow. Save trade, which is going to last through the civil war and the relentless land hunger that is going to drive westward expansion. Ten out of the first twelve American presidents owned slaves, and these really are the things that we didn't learn, or at least I didn't learn in my history books. And I know there are a lot of students here tonight, and I hope you're learning some of this because this is an important part of what we need to know not again to condemn or even to litigate the past, but to understand how the past is palpably present in so many ways, how these errors and crimes continue to shape an inform the society that we live in. This country was founded on onto great crimes that intern engendered a long inner war, and that inner war is at the foundation of the history of American policing and the history of American militarism that we still are deviled with today. Thomas Jefferson, the author of the great charter of American freedom had this to say about slaveholding and slaves. We can neither hold onto him nor safely. Let him go slave, or he said is like a wolf. That we have by the ear, we can neither hold onto him nor safely. Let him go Justice on one scale self-preservation on the other, an American slaveholders and American politicians ever since Jefferson have been choosing self-preservation over Justice. They continues to hold the wolf by the ear. And they continue to make the wrong choice. And oftentimes when people talk about the past, that's just how it was. Then these were the standards of the time and so on and so forth. And we can't judge these men and sometimes women by the stand by the standards of the present. But the thing is is if you read the archives of the past, if you read the words of these men, mostly men, mostly white men. They knew they were committing crimes in a letter to Jefferson. John Jay wrote. The Indians are being killed by our people in cold blood and no satisfaction given, nor are they pleased with the avidity with which we acquire their land. They knew that crimes were being committed in their name, and yet they chose to hold the wolf for fear of losing themselves. We are sometimes told that the United States. Has never been an empire. I don't know if you remember this, but right after the launching of the Iraq war in two thousand three, Donald Rumsfeld was asked by a reporter is this an imperial action? He said, empire, we have never been an empire. I don't know why you would even ask the question and it's one of those great formulations because essentially what runs fell, does not even say not only say that we have never been an empire, but to rule out the validity of even asking the question. These, this is what I mean by the layers upon layers of forgetting sanctioned, forgetting sanctioned, ignorance about who we are. But if we think about this ark this first arc that goes through slavery and settlement and colonization, what we see is that even at the end of the closing of the frontier, at the end of the nineteenth century, the United States then embarks on a new history of expansionism into the Caribbean and the Pacific almost immediately following the last Indian wars, the US would go on to fight the first major colonial counterinsurgency of the twentieth century in the Philippines, which leaves some one million Filipinos dead over the course of a decade a little over a decade and introduce some things into the lexicon of of military tactics such as torture and what was the torture that was favored in the US Philippine War. I wonder if anyone knows the water cure the water cure, which is essentially. Waterboarding it engenders huge public outcry hearings are held about war crimes. This is what I mean about being condemned to repeat. I never learned about the Philippine war until I went to graduate school. Expansion into the Carribean in the Pacific created a whole new map making craze and the maps. If you look at geography textbooks from the early twentieth century, show something called greater America in greater America. What you see is the Philippines parts of the Caribbean, the hemisphere over which the over which the United States reigned as a kind of informal imperial power. And even in nineteen forty when the population of the United States was one hundred thirty, two million people. It held some twenty million people outside the United States in these overseas territories. In a state of subjection, combine that with the twelve million African Americans held in second class citizen and the millions of Mexicans and indigenous people in Asians who are eligible to become citizens or in various states that alien edge. And you're still looking at a situation in which about twenty five percent of the country. Much like the founding. Is in a state of subjection governed without their consent. That in my view is the definition of what it means to be an empire. So nineteen forty is not that long ago. So if we're talking about something in the distant past, we're seeing how it carries forward. So that brings me to my second historical arch- and this will be somewhat more familiar to all of us and that's historical arch- that begins with what we call the postwar period post war. It's a funny kind of euphemism. We all know what we're talking about right World War Two, the post-war. It's it's an interesting formulation because we think we live in the postwar, but we live actually in the permanent war and yet we narrate it back always to this moment of World War Two. And why do we do that? Because World War Two is thought of as a good war. But one of the reasons. Reasons. World War Two is thought of as a good war is because it was a war that was fought against a monstrous evil, namely Nazi Germany, and it was a war that was fought in the name of democracy in it was a war that was fought with the promise that we were entering a period in which there would be noon norms of world behavior. Some of the documents that come out of that war are some of the greatest documents of the twentieth century, the Atlantic charter, which promises self determination for all peoples. The new deal Bill of rights in which the Roosevelt administration promises to build on the new deal with a promise of guaranteed health care, housing and employment for all Americans, a Universal Declaration of human rights. It's as a charter for all the world's people a document that's meant to stand against the evils of racism. There's even what the US administration called in the run-up to World War Two, a good neighbor policy towards Latin America where there's a recognition that the history of military intervention gun gunboat diplomacy is now illegitimate Sumner Welles who's the under secretary of state in World War Two uses this exact phrase in nineteen forty two. He says, we are witnessing the death of white supremacy on the planet that is nineteen forty two. That's a US State Department official making that pronouncement about the collapse of the French empire in southeast Asia, the collapse of the Dutch empire, the impending collapse of the British empire and saying, there's a new world coming. The new world coming was. A book written by ROY out Lee who was an African American journalists in Harlem. The new world a-coming was going to be the world that saw the end of fascism the end of colonialism and the end of racism. These were the promises that came out of World War Two and even imperial statesmanlike. Henry Stimson, who is the secretary of war during World War Two who wrote a very interesting essay right at the end of the war called the challenge to Americans said, we are entering a period in which the United States must have a new relationship with the world and a new relationship to itself and to its own history. But not so fast. So what happens of course, before the ink was dry on the Atlantic charter and you can go to the archives and see these notations that Winston Churchill co signitaries co-signatory with Franklin Roosevelt made in the margins not to apply to the dominions of the British empire. And then if you read the charter, one of the interesting things about it is we all know it is the document that promises self determination. Of course, these exceptions are going to be smuggled in, but you don't know probably the fourth point of the Atlantic charter and maybe fact check me on that and it's not exactly for maybe it's five is the access of all nations to all the resources of the earth. So what is that about? That's about, we're gonna be. We're going to be able to continue in spite of the prospects of self determination to be able to get what we need for our capitalist machine. Now within the us, there's a still deeper debate about the nature of postwar power. Henry Stimson who's getting quite old in his witness, the dropping of the atomic bomb on the Japanese and is filled with remorse and regret about it. Enters a cabinet meeting with Harry Truman right after Roosevelt's death. And he says to Truman, we must share information about nuclear weapons with the Soviet Union. If we don't do so we will encourage an arms race of a feverish and desperate character. Stimson goes on to say the only way to make someone trustworthy is to trust them. It's a really remarkable moment. Henry Wallis who is at that time, the secretary of commerce and who had been the vice president before he was asked it in the Roosevelt administration called it the most dramatic cabinet meeting in all his years in Washington Wallis argued for Stimpson's position as detaching, although action would later recant his position, the person that oppose them though was the secretary of the navy James forrestal, and this is what forrestal said. And this was the argument that won the day. He said the Russians are essentially like the Japanese. They are oriented in their thinking. And they are only attuned to the language of force the bomb and the knowledge that produced it are the property of the American people and forest all went onto make another similar kind of argument about the Japanese mandated islands that the United States had one during the war. He said these islands must be kept in perpetuity. For they were one through our blood. And so here you have the moment where you've promised the end of colonialism and the end of white supremacy. What are you doing. You are seizing new colonies, which are then going to be the staging ground for American nuclear testing for the next decade at the expense of all the Pacific islanders who live across that region. It's forestall protege. George Kennan, who would author the single most influential policy leading to almost half a century of Cold War. And the policy of course is known under the term containment. But underneath the containment of the Soviet Union Kenan offered a more brutal and Frank rationale. And he said this in a policy memo that he authored in nineteen forty eight. We have fifty percent of the world's wealth and six point. Three percent of its population are task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our security. Now, does that sound like self-determination? Does that sound like the Universal Declaration of human rights desires even sound like a new deal Bill of rights? No, it doesn't sound like any of those things. The aspirated dreams of a society centered on the demands of the d. moss which actually both the United States and the Soviet Union promised in different ways is going to be truncated and traduced in this new great power rivalry. Of course, these forms of power engendered resistance, much slavery gendered abolition and settlement engendered the continued fight for the line. As the struggle for native sovereignty was often described and as colonialism in gendered anti colonial insurgencies after World War Two aspirations for freedom exceleron did and won important victories. The long civil rights movement that begins with the struggle to integrate war industries in the United States in one thousand nine hundred forty one. It'll take twenty years, but it will win significant victories. The decolonization struggles which are going to start even before World War Two. And you remember that important moment where hokey men sends telegrams to the Truman administration saying, we expect in light of the Atlantic charter that the United States will be on our side in our struggle against the French. Of course that didn't turn out to be the case. The United States is already ferrying French, combat troops, many of whom had collaborated with the Nazis Dr southeast-asian nineteen forty six. An American sailors who wanna come home or saying, what are we doing? But the Vietnamese would mount twenty years of resistance. In another long war that they eventually won and won their sovereignty. This is a period in which social democratic experiments to expand the boundaries of the welfare state to make it responsive again to the needs of people to their health to their ability to find gainful employment to their long-term longevity after they can no longer work. These promises are also being expanded in one impart through the labor movement and the civil rights movement. And of course, most of all, in many ways coming out of all of these movements, especially in the United States is the struggle for gender equality and sexual equality which is going to reach kind of kind of a new intensity in the context of the civil rights movement in the United States in the nineteen sixties, but which we are clearly still struggling to live out the promise of. In fact, we might note and this is always something I tell my students and it's always something that I think again puts into context something about where we are in the present that the United States only actually became a liberal democracy in one thousand nine hundred sixty five with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. That's only a little more than fifty years ago. So when we think of this country in the kind of American exceptionalism idiom as the greatest democracy in the history of humanity. What are we really talking about in light of what I've said before about the previous arcs of history. That doesn't really get born out in nineteen sixty five. Maybe the claim begins to have some laws ability. You finally ended a century and a half of commitment to black subjugation. You finally ended a century and a half commitment to whites only immigration policy. This is a pivotal moment, obviously for the country. It's the moment in which I was born, not in the United States, but in India and my parents. Emigrated here three years later under more favorable immigration law. But when we think of the brevity of Americans experiment with liberal democracy, then maybe it puts in light into a better light and clear light. Some of the challenges we are facing now. For the counter revolution that men like forestall and Kennan envisioned. At the end of World War Two was only just gathering steam. What it led. The us into the war in Vietnam had obviously engendered a tremendous resistance as well. But in the war in Vietnam, many of the hopes and dreams of civil of the civil rights movement of welfare state expansion of changing the course of the history of the United States also ran aground. This was the moment I think where we got one of the most profound diagnosis of what ails us. Martin Luther King junior at the end of his life argue that the United States had been on the wrong side of world revolution. And he said that the promises of the great society which was Johnson's experiment to expand the welfare state and particularly to bring southern blacks who had been excluded from the first new deal into a broader conception of the social welfare. Project. But the war in many ways, put an end to all of that and when king came out against the war in nineteen sixty seven one year to the day before he was shot down, he pronounced on what he called the interrelated evils in American society, racism, materialism, and militarism, racism, materialism, militarism, the first. The direct descendant of the slave past the second. Perhaps we could say the product of a country driven by a dispossessing land hunger, and the third part of the legacy of America's overseas colonization. He was saying that we are still living out this arc of history now in a new form in a new moment. And he laughed a challenge that I think still constellations the present that we still have not met. But at that very moment, the counter revolutionary project of the right was also in it's ascendancy and the war that had been fought abroad would now come home with a vengeance. One of the things we begin to see if the end of the sixties and in the early seventies is the coalescence of a series of arguments about what was wrong with American society. And the series of arguments is going to shape in many ways. The world that we now live in. Samuel Huntington who is a political scientist and very important contributor to the Vietnam war made a report to the trilateral commission in the early nineteen seventies where he described what he called an excess of democracy. The people Huntington wrote no longer felt the same obliga- Shittu obey those. They previously considered superior to themselves in age, rank status, expertise, character, and talents, Huntington lamented the days when it was possible to quote govern the country with the cooperation of a relatively small number of Wall Street lawyers and Danckers. He wrote this down. I'm not making it up. And it was a high level report. Okay. A high level report. So Huntington dot, the diametrically opposite reading of the significance of the nineteen sixties. Not that the United States had finally at last become a liberal democracy, but the becoming a liberal democracy. Was it self a problem for ruling the empire going forward too? Many people were starting to have too many expectations about their entitlement to be heard to be fed to be listened to, to be recognized in the public square. This was a problem for Huntington. Lewis Powell soon to be named by Richard Nixon to the US supreme court had much the same idea and in a memo to the US chamber of commerce in nineteen seventy three. He called for a business counteroffensive. Against the challenges to thority that had emerged throughout the decade. But particularly the unrest and unruliness that had been shown by organized labor and by emerging environmental movement. If you go back and read Powell's memo, he is particularly alarmed by one book a book by Charles right called the greening of America. He's really made crazy by it. He says, you know, we've got a stamp this out. This is a huge problem for us and he a very sober and thoughtful memo otherwise. And it's really plotting strategy in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight. They were hundred corporate log lobbying offices in Washington DC by the middle of the nineteen eighties, there were twelve hundred. Powell's message was heated, and we now also know that Exxon corporations like it had already understood the climate science of global warming in the nineteen seventies and much as just like big tobacco covered up the evidence of the carcinogenic impact of smoking cigarettes. The big petroleum companies covered up the fact of human, the human contribution through burning fossil fuels to irreversible damage in climate change. And that's in the nineteen seventies, and that is something that comes out of the work of someone like Powell who of course, then goes on to sit on the supreme court. The third piece of the counter-offensive was not articulated by an avowed national security, intellectual or conservative. This was a champion liberal champion in many ways of the labor movement, even the civil rights movement to some degree in his in his early years. And that was Daniel Patrick Moynihan and moynahan made to great contributions to the counter revolutionary counter-offensive to the nineteen sixties the policy, which he named benign neglect. We spent too much time talking about the new negro problem too much time. He says in nineteen sixty five when you've just granted the civil rights legislation after a century and a half of black subjugation. And he says, you know what racism is not so much of a problem anymore. The real problem is the tangle of pathology in the black family that is perpetuating itself without any assistance from. The white world. This is more than a hands thesis in nineteen sixty five. Not only does he talk a tangle of pathology. He says it is creating forms of antisocial behavior, irrational lashing out at legitimate authority that is going to need to be dealt with more harshly in the coming period. So already just at the moment when you have civil rights victories, you have a subset of liberal opinion making the argument for punitive, turn in social policy. Moynahan has a second act because in nineteen seventy five. He is the embassador to the United Nations where he authors a piece called the United States in opposition, and he makes a very similar argument to the argument. He makes about the nine neglect towards African Americans struggling for freedom and equality to the third world. He says, we've been criticized too much in this forum. It's time for us to take the gloves off and to show these these underdeveloped and developing countries just who's the boss. We think of unilateralism in American policy as beginning with Trump or maybe we think back to George W Bush. But in fact, we need to go back to this earlier moment because this is the moment in which you have a trajectory towards the kind of unilateralism that we're seeing now. And of course, one of the great figures who played many sides in this game. Henry Kissinger at the very moment that moynahan is talking about the United States in opposition helping to engineer a coup and Chile. And this is what Kissinger said about the coup in Chile, which overthrew the elected government of Salvatore young, a socialist and led to the military dictatorship of to shea some ways. This quote from Kissinger for me brings together all of these strands. I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chile for the Chilean voter to be left to decide for themselves. These sharp right turns come together in the Reagan administration. And the Reagan administration marks a ratcheting up of the Cold War. Again, what some commentators have described as a second Cold War. It marks a new period of covert action in hemispheric intervention. No more good neighbor policy. And of course it marks the beginning of the dirty wars that the US is still fighting in the Middle East and South Asia. Does anybody remember the peace dividend. For a half century of Cold War me. Neither. Instead on top of a bloated military industrial complex, we set about building a new prison industrial complex, and that started with the launching of the wars on crime and the wars on drugs and the fact that the language of war was now going to be applied to America's own internal population. In many ways, tells you everything you need to know. We were still fighting the inner war, the inner wars that were at the founding of this country. Were renewed, and it wasn't just Nixon and Reagan even Lyndon Johnson in the late nineteen sixties and response to conservative pressure and the upsurge in street crime which did in fact happen said we are now fighting a war within our own boundaries. This is all part of a punitive turn. And it takes over it takes over from the the more progressive and inclusive trajectories that are coming out of the sixties. And it begins to solidify a new common sense. And these were the years in which someone named Donald J Trump I burst on the scene talking about a world that cheated Americans and demanding an even harsher version of law and order politics. You remember his first very first political act was taking out a full page ad in the daily news calling for the execution of five African American boys who are wrongly accused the turns out of raping a white woman in central park and Trump called for their death. He's still even in the revelations that have come since never admitted that he was wrong Trump is all it. Really. He's the reactionary business ethic. He's unilateral militarism. He's husk hostile to a diverse moss, and he embraces the extractive mania of environmental deregulate regulation. He represents in some ways, all the worst aspects of our history, and they have all in many ways coalesced to all of our horror, but don't necessarily want to end on this known. We live at the end. I think of this third, arc Trump is not the beginning of something new. He's the end of something. Okay. He's the end of something. What what we live at the end of is undeniably a world in distress and to some extent in ruin. Four trillion dollars of forever war a national debt fueled by tax cuts, whose interest payments will soon exceed the already bloated military budget, an ecology whose fragility is still denied. And of course, the mass incarceration regime that has ground up and spit out tens of millions of people over the last three decades decimating entire communities. Even just looking at the United States alone, there's a tremendous amount of salvage work to be done, and I use the word salvage because I think that we have to recognize the ruins that we live amongst a not believe in the kind of techno optimists. Quick fixes that that something's going to come along and magically save us. But we are at the end of an arc. We are at the end of an arc. It is easy to fall prey to pessimism and despair, but it is not where I want to leave. You. Frederick Douglass the great the great escape slave freedom or Reiter an abolitionist us the very famous slogan which you've probably heard before without struggle. There is no progress without struggle. There is no progress and we've seen it throughout our history. We have a system that generates enormous wealth and technological advance without commensurate improvements in our ethical and spiritual faculties. This is why another great freedom fighter Martin Luther King at the end of his life called for a radical revolution in values, and we're still waiting for that radical revolution in values. But even in these dark years of permanent war and mass incarceration, we have seen and mass deportation. We have seen great movements on our horizon. I don't know, probably many of you. In this room where have been have been marching for twenty years, we marched in the millions against the Iraq war. We didn't stop that war from happening, but the marching we did mattered. It created the context for the discrediting of that war and the entire project represents millions three years later marched for immigrant rights and the rights to the undocumented millions. The bigger perhaps the biggest labor March in the history of the United States. That legacy is still within still with us even though so many have been forced back into the shadows by the deportation mania. We live amidst new on profound upsurge of demands for economic fairness and health security. And of course, there's the movement for black lives and the movement for black lives taps in to the whole long history that I've been describing today, we are ready to begin a new historical arch- and the forces arrayed against this should not be overestimated. Bring on the excessive democracy, the future demands, it. And we must finally become a decent country among the peoples of the world. Thank you. Nikiel. Paul sing is an NYU professor. He is the author of black country and race and America's long war. He's also the founding co director of NYU's prison education project special, thanks to the land and foundation for hosting this event in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Thank you also to the lens of theater and Jonathan low for the audio recording. Not does it for this bonus episode. If you are not yet a sustaining member of intercepted, we are now in our membership drive become a sustaining member of the program by logging onto the intercept dot com. Slash join intercept a production of first look media and the intercept. We're distributed by panoply. Our producer Jack Doro and our executive producer is Lee, Tom Alah flora, Flynn is associate producer, at least Swain is our assistant producer and graphic designer. Our music as always was composed by j. Spooky, thanks so much for listening. I'm Jeremy Scahill.
Ep. 157 SLAFKA Safeguarding Nuclear Material with Blockchain
"Hello hello hello. Welcome to inch blocks your dedicated podcast to blockchain in industries and institutions. All around the world. I'm will lead all scuff your host for this week's podcast. We will be discussing slavica. The world's first blockchain prototype for safeguarding nuclear material. I'm extremely pleased to welcome. Cindy the stimson. Center director at the nuclear safeguards program director for the budget in practice program. Us of indeed cindy. Welcome to answer walks. Please give listeners a quick introduction on yourself. Sure so as you said. I got to hats. Director of the nuclear safeguards program also blocking practice program. But of course your listeners was going to say viewers. Your listeners are most interested in the blockchain practice side of things which was launched. Actually not too long ago just in two thousand eighteen in october and that was after or sorry in two thousand nineteen it was after we had been scoping the potential for this technology in relation to my other hat. Which is the nuclear safeguards. So i've actually been at the simpson center Since july two thousand sixteen interesting time to be here. I am danish canadian. Living in the united states and just rocking these two programs and seeing what we can do for particularly when it comes to records management how we can create greater efficiencies when it comes to international security. Roy bruins great to have you on the show. So thank you for that. Now as you're aware the first question we always ask our guest is. Could you please explain to our listeners. What is blockchain. And how does it work. Sure so for us. We focus on distributed ledger technology. Dot so blockchain subset of dlt which is essentially a combination of different technologies have been around for already number of decades which is peer to peer protocols talkie hashing to make it an immutable ledger. That can be shared securely digitally across ecosystem great. Yeah that's something that is often forgotten is that it's actually technologies have existed for quite some time been put together and function mr way that you know we kind of call blockchain now. Could you introduce us to. What is this timpson center. Please share so. it's a think tank in washington dc. It is thirty mcginnis. What are we now thirty. Two years old It started in one thousand nine hundred nine so that the as the soviet union was beginning to dissolve as a very interesting time of course and simpson center really looks at real world problems. We are non partisan and independent center and looking at in terms of the work that i do really looking at the intersection of technology policy with the work. We do is evidence based policy research. I think is the best way for me to put up right right. And how did the blockchain in practice program come out of it. What was the instigator you pop one year. I guess that was sorry. The years all get so befuddled particularly in olden days. Now as yes and so. I went to plop type one year. And just you know i. I had heard about bitcoin. Obviously but i have not really heard much about watching a really understood a lot about it and so people were talking about it at this event and then there was a latching breakfast. So that's a good opportunity for me to learn. I just. I am not a morning person so this morning but i learned a lot and then from there i i wanted to take a course as the courses that were offered at that time were either for financiers or for parameters. And i'm neither. I work in the space of international relations nuclear non-proliferation issues. So i needed the the blockchain for dummies and ended up finding a really interesting course. Online by company called tech change actually also located in dc and they had blocking international development. Course so i wrote in some other stimpson nights and took the course and i wanted to see what the potential was when it came to nuclear safeguards in. That's that's a group while. Wow i love the story and what i would like to find a little bit more. Is that in in two thousand. Nineteen or partnership was established between the the finish radiation nuclear safety authority the st k. Williams slim's stuck with the stimson center in washington. Dc and the university of new south wales in sydney australia to develop the world's first distributed ledger technology prototype for safeguarding. Nuclear material called slavica. Did i pronounce and so could you tell us a little bit. More about sloughed. Cas mission and the problem is looking to address shirt so it sounds like a nordic log and i think we need to. Brandon is such point But it's not. It's a stupid participated in a number of different workshops that we had so as we were scoping out the potential for dot and nuclear safeguards. Were all over the world. Having these conversations with experts and stu participated in a number of those and they approached us and said we'd really like to develop a prototype for a number of different reasons steuck. Our finland i should say is also the first country in the world to be building a deep geological repository for it nuclear fuel so for its high level or use fuel a way st- To actually put it underground so they are leading the way after four decades of research study and of course community acceptance to be building this so this facility deke. Logical repository is going to have obviously lifetimes we're talking two hundred years for construction and for final enclosure. Of course that material will be underground forever So the question for for stupid And also for the government of finland is how do we ensure that the material underground is also the same thing. That's reflected on the books about perhaps so data integrity is obviously a big motivation for a stoop and for finland as a whole when it comes to their deep geological repository. The other is its relationship with Euratom so you're adam is the regional safeguards audie for its member states with the eu and And so there. There could be better of increasing security enhancing the aspects of data sharing and also transparency in a number of different ways. So that was really the motivation for for steuck at for us it was to see if dot can actually handle the different of transactions. Other needed under nuclear safeguards agreement. And what are the kinds of transactions. D. are dc happening on your deal platform so without getting too technical into the nuclear side. Basically nuclear material moves right so it moves in a facility. It moves within the country and then of course it moves internationally as it moves. It also shifts informed so i could be sending you kate or uranium ore concentrates to one country or to lead a stand and then sue vestergaard sonia. You could be sending back enrich uranium so then as a facility you might be moving from one part of the facility to another or even to another facility within the same country so All that has to be logged at. I am reported to either a national regulator if there is one in some cases in europe. There isn't a national regulator. The regional regulator euratom is that regulator and then also to the international tomic energy agency in vienna. Which is the the Authority when it comes to ensuring that the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. Its obligations are being met by states so there are a number of actors being involved in today how these transactions happened. Today is it. Eletronic is paper based and what are the challenges of the existing traditional methods. Well it's a little bit of both in terms of paper and An electronic third. The i e it does have a portal for safeguards declarations. It is march universal in terms of being used some countries will still provide their declarations on a usb. Some still and paper so you can imagine in the nuclear world. There's not a lot of trust among different parties and allows fair it nuclear weapons. It is the biggest bomb out there. and can certainly do a lot of destruction. So what i talk a lot about. How is you know you have to keep in mind. That nuclear technology is a disruptive technology in some respects one of the worst For what it can do in terms of actual destruction and disruption so therefore it's all the rules and regulations that we built up around it international treaties national rules regulations export controls. Everything around. It are to make sure that that technology is not disrupted and because countries don't trust each other every month very skeptical of each other but the i. e. a place that rule to go in and monitor and verify that what states are doing is actually needing their obligations for peaceful purposes using nuclear material for peaceful purposes. The question yeah by always wondering surely they could have launched in a central database to try to manage all this flow of information because there are ready to trust the doctor. Why why did you need a blockchain for that. Well the work. Yes so so. Just to say nuclear safeguards the iea is able more so particularly since safe rtp ball over the decades in terms of what it is that they're able to do in a country so that has been expanded over time and the agency is able to know if someone's not meeting those obligations a lot better than it was in the eighties for example so yes It is certainly. The agency is the trusted one but also in terms of its systems and different types of procedures. Waste and records management Digitization is only very recent and international organizations are still the product of member states and so if member states are not willing to put money in for such and things them things will will take time digitization what was a big thing but records management. So this is a technological solution for some of the different issues in terms of efficiency that the agency has and so this is one of the reasons to test that also just to say that slackens very much finish out products. So it's fictional but it is based on finland system of accounting in control for nuclear material. So we didn't look at the international perspective yet. Understood understood so focusing more in finland than on the tenth of march of last year twenty twenty slap cow was officially launched in helsinki. Could you tell us what your appeal see proved was possible with the technology. Interesting time. march tenants two seater. We were on our way back to quickly. he has. We were supposed to go to vienna and do the prototype demonstration in front of the but of course we were told to come home so that was the last time i've been in europe. Unfortunately it's a longtime ago deals like it anyway so the the proof of concept was demonstrated a couple of things. The i was can end. The most important was candiotti. Or cancelling prototype handle nuclear transactions so safeguards transactions can that actually handle the different types of data That s- be haven't material movements and the answer is yes so that was good And we did a number of different transactions so whether you are shipping material within a country or outside of the country also. There's different things. Hold refashioning nuclear material. So we try to ride it different things particularly with that deep geological repository in mind so looking at the end of life if you will of of nuclear material but also from its beginnings and taking it through we did not test the security side of things and that's one thing i wanna highlight and the reason for that was just because we really wanted to focus on the transactions and to demonstrate that the technology could do that because i would be a show stopper of course if we couldn't and these types of transactions that we were looking at were specific to what is called a ten or were eu regulation Two thousand and five looking at specific types of transactions There are others in safeguards. But we want to look at the main one which is known to be under. What's all comprehensive. Safeguards agreements with the ea in these are based on the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Right now one of the things. I'm curious to know enough for successful. Transactions to happen on A dod plot for unique common data standards is something that you found was already existing within within finland or is something that had to be established. That's a really good point and thank you for highlighting that because dot of works best highly governed systems in the world is so there are a specific codes. That have been in for for decades already. And so this code ten or the eu regulation are very specific in. How states have to report that information. So that's why it was actually an easy test case in some respects because it's just such a highly governance system in. It's just easy to punk in that information or that structure fireman's into into laughter. Great so tell me about blockchain pot from himself and also why did you choose hyper ledger. Fabric sure so hyper ledger. Of course permits different rules for different. There's different accents In terms of freedom right restrictions so that aligns with the confidentiality aspects that are related to nuclear material so in slash. The chain code allows us to to build access controls right so for example. A shipments domestic. It would check whether that the pure posing it is within a list of approved holders so holders of nuclear materials or nodes that have permission to transact that particular batch material as you can imagine there's a variety of different confidentiality rules that come with me material so industries are nuclear operator for example. Let's say a nuclear power plant can see its own inventory on. But it can't see the inventory of another nuclear operator and the regulator though however we gave full access as they should as a national regulator. Same thing in For a regional regulator and then at the international level showed how you could do a different type of Access controls so it was so slash as i mentioned before the transactions also to show how it can be lines in terms of access controls Information dre and that's ledger. Fabric was perfect. Great great and one of the other challenges. That often comes up in different. Dot initiatives on asia. Boxes is not just you know from a data perspective but it's also from a governance perspective. So i'm curious to know in terms of you know who are the actors in slavko. What kind of governance structure are you looking to put in place for the members of your future pilots so the actors are holders nuclear and that can be anyone or any type of facilities such as a nuclear power plant could also be a research institute it could be. Universities for example can have a different types of nuclear materials that they are using in their laboratories so so there are the holders. And then there are the regulators and the regulators as i mentioned national regional. If there is a regional anywhere the country would be in the world of course. Finland is in europe. And then there would be so. There's really two types holders and the regulators in terms of sorry the second part of your question or was it the first part of your question. The second part was in terms of the. The governor instruction right. So the governor's as i mentioned is already there. It's not for us to to determine a new set of guidelines for international safeguards So that governance structure is already there Who needs to have what the information flows of those are required by international treaty international agreements and then of course even national law so to be honest it was very easy on the government side. And as i mentioned this is why it's so easy to use at the l. T. or at least a test it because it seems so perfect when it comes to nuclear safe part. Yep yep so we introduction of where we're passionate by the conversions of blockchain along with ai and intended of things are you using these other technologies for safeguarding. nuclear material if yes how well in terms of current nuclear safeguards technologies being used internet of things I mean certainly. The i e has a network of different types of sensors and cameras in place to be able to ensure what's called continuity of knowledge obviously inspectors can't be at every facility every day so they have cameras in place in in different types of sensors but in terms of converging that onto and dot platform no. We did not do that. At the prototype. Lions i mentioned we still have a number of steps to slack was the first step of many particularly since the nuclear field is very conservative. But of course the different Startups mid up big up. In in the in the dot world that we that we deal with do use a in iot more and more not in their prototypes in poc's hopefully even the commercialization side of things for us. Just see you know that. We are also looking at the potential for dlt and transport Nuclear security transports and their iot would really have a big aspect. A i think that would come later. I'm not quite sure. I think that might be one of the last aspects of technologies that might be totally acceptable at an international level. But maybe not. Maybe it's something that can be moved quicker than we might think but he is being looked at by international by but also experts internationally to see about its potential to actually make inspections more efficient. So since you had your your launch in march twenty twenty for what you proved your proof of concept what are your plans for taking your to pilot and ultimately to a product production. Great solution so as i mentioned slack as for steph. So there's a number of different thefts to go in. Terms of testing other aspects of nuclear safeguards transactions. There's one called. The additional protocol came into place in the nineteen nineties. It goes beyond or or over and beyond those comprehensive safeguards agreements or coach. As i mentioned before and so we'd like to be able to force test those types of transactions but also move into other areas such as as i mentioned the transport side of things and they're also be iot aspects would come into place who could demonstrate how dot would be able to handle the current sensors that are in place and we could probably even future forecasts some others So that we can demonstrate the potential there and also the government's comes to transport because it's multi-modal as i mentioned it goes across multi multi jurisdictions and of course there's going to be different rules for each one and again. Dot should be able to work in that what we need to demonstrate how it works in different governance structures across the world also looking at nuclear cooperation agreements. So these are ncaa's these are bilaterally negotiated between states Usually a pre requisite before trade of nuclear materials or technologies can happen and they have very specific information sharing requirements within these different types of. Ncaa's so you can imagine a country. Such as canada. United states. Australia that have. Ncaa's is a requirement of trade. They can have twenty thirty different types of ncaa's out there they'll have different aspects for different countries. But you can imagine how a sheriff ledger within that country can be able to assist its reporting requirements. Also doing it nuclear security. So that's really known in the nucleus world is the gun guard skates aspects. So where nuclear safeguards is the non-proliferation side of things making sure that stays do not miss misuse nuclear material. Nuclear security is to make sure that non state actors can't access in misuse nuclear material. So again most guns farts gates and looking at access controls inventory controls which does provide overlap to nuclear safeguards but also the transport security side of things and also export. Controls is an area that we wanna move into and not just in the nucleus of that may be an area where we would start looking at different widgets and the rules that apply to those Globally and then we are extending beyond walling to to different parts of the international security space. So we have a proposal right now on incubating solutions and we're looking at the potential for dot to address different aspects of of reporting related to the chemical weapons mention so nuclear material. Trade is warped certainly by the chemical trade which is i'm gonna say if not trillions in terms of volumes at are treated globally and so there were looking at what a call schedule chemicals under the cwc's specific chemicals that have to be reported in terms of international trade So that's an area that we are hoping to be able to start working at this year and in the end and i don't know but when the day is but throughout this process i guess it's better to say that we hope to be able to provide a comparison as we're doing different types of not prototypes to show the different lessons that we can learn from them when it comes to not just nuclear but also chemical non-proliferation hopefully also biological non-proliferation and maybe even getting into small arms and light beckons. And so on. You've got a lot of ambitions in some very dangerous. Is this something that just taxi. Chemical nucleus arms mentioned ross. I can't tell one of my favorite. It's the only one wear a category. Wmd of a weapon of mass destruction is actually by international treaty to be disarmed and completely eradicated. So people of course would have heard about syria and fortunately there is a country that is continuing to use them a country that i started outside of the treaty and is now inside the treaty so it's not all rosy of course And there are challenges but it is international security and for me if you wanna know the politics that best at its worst in power structures and you focus on big guns yet and that brings you know for me again. Back to this question of governance. Because let's say you know you can extend your your platform to cover not just finland but other countries and then you can also do the same thing for Chemical weapons when you're dealing with a large number of actors you need them to all have certain level of digitisation as we talked about the beginning. They need data standards and dignity to agree on the governance. A lot of momentum for me for governance comes around who pays for what who owns what and who gets to do what that's going to be a big piece to regulate to organize What are your thoughts on that. Yeah the cost is down the line for us at the moment but to start off with talking about the large number of actors in different structures and governance within that so finland of course you mentioned new is one country in a country with a with a small or moderate nuclear a civilian nuclear program. I do hope to be able to have a prototype that we can develop specifically for the united states. The united states obviously has a very large nuclear power program about one hundred reactors It also is a nuclear weapons state So that's another host of issues but also means a different government structure in terms of its relationship or safeguards agreements with the ira and of course it also has a very robust internal or domestic rules and regulations that address nuclear security as well as a aspects of their safeguard supports. Course they have to implement internationally to meet their obligations with the e but those obligations are very different than for finland which is a non nuclear weapons state so to be able to test that how that governance a dot works within the united states for example would be wanting to be kind of fun but it would certainly give us a lot more insight when we're looking at the potential then for the other four possessors of nuclear weapons that are inside the p. is well So each country that we would work at would allow us a lot more awareness and understanding about the potential for deal to on the pitfalls and where there could be an also address really the more difficult scenario. Finland would probably be one of the easier countries particularly since. It's one of the most transparent. Well excuse me. But what would that mean. If we're dealing with other countries within the ntt system or members to the eight whether it be iran for example or or other countries so bad. I think it's a big part of it. Who piece for what. This is one of the challenges. Also with the with the i. E. e. a any type of new technology. I mean generally when we're talking about instrumentation for verification for inspectors to use it can take ten to fifteen years to be certified so nothing moves fast at when it comes to this international space so not just because it's nuclear and the technology that is destructible But also because it's just an international organization and that is as you mentioned steered by its member states and some than others and some have more money than us so there's also different pockets for the i. e. it which revolve contributions mrs particularly in place when it comes to nuclear security for example so there is a general budget. Of course. they're all these kind of extraordinary or voluntary Pockets that come in or funding. That comes into the agency as well. But this is one of the things going forward also when you might have heard about advanced reactors or the idea that you can have small modular reactors in them. You know the idea of the next renaissance of nuclear energy whether that happens or not as let's leave that aside but if there is more nuclear and their new would novel types of reactor designs than the current news fleet and there's a lot more safeguards considerations to make their and then that might require more inspectors time but because there is a note growth budget at the i. e. e. a. How are we going to do this. And the is very press indeed. Uk's for wet we would have to sit down the line but first we need to win over member states while demonstrate the potential for this technology then win them over gets a public or member state acceptance. And the newsom there. So it's not gonna be a pick for us while at least the news dot blockchain deal dis commonly known as the trust foundational layer. So hopefully that will provide some inspiration for those member states to To explore this in more detail. I'm gonna thank you very much. Indeed for for introducing us to the guy and the very interesting work that you're doing we'd love to have you back on the show when you expand your Your pse to pilot when you start covering the chemical space. We'd love to hear your your new insights from that expansion We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you like what you've heard this week please don't forget us podcast and leave your attitudes. These reviews really make a huge difference. So please share your views. Cindy was a real pleasure. And i hope we'll get the not to catch up again. Sounds good thank you. All and i will definitely be back.
Monitor Show 01:00 06-07-2021 01:00
"There are a lot of ways to look at the world right now. It's seeing that you've got an overweight on hong kong and the more of them you can access the better. What has to be his strategy perspective. Who's doing school best clarity. How did we get it. So that the benefits get to everybody expertise. He seems to have exactly the right combination. It's character plus polcy bloomberg radio the bloomberg business app and bloombergradio dot com bloomberg. The world is listening thing. Twenty four hours a day at bloomberg dot com the bloomberg business app and bloomberg quick tape. This is bloomberg radio. This is bloomberg daybreak here for this monday. The seventh of june in london coming up this hour inflation as a good thing. Janet yellen expects a spurt in prices from biden stimulus package but slightly higher rates would be a plus tenure. Us treasury yields to cup with adults fifteen percent off to g seven finance ministers agreed biggest shakeup in corporate tax in a century will the rest of the world sign up to a global minimum estate election. When boosts armand blanchett's chances of succeeding. Angler merckel is german. Chancellor and hungary's orbit may delay a controversial chinese university campus in budapest. I'm the and guarantees with a world. News and hall for british businesses are operating at pre covid levels when they worry about future lockdowns with twenty first of june easing stimson. That's all straight ahead on bloomberg daybreak europe on d. a. b. digital radio london bloomberg eleven. Three oh new york bloomberg ninety nine one washington d.
A Salt City Short: Jared Hates Building
"Do you do either of you guys own or have you played minecraft. I've played like nine minutes of minecraft a decade ago. Really i want to. I'm tempted to like host assault. City games mind crossover for like three months that just anyone can be in and we fucking play. I think it would be fun at shit in good for the community. But that depends on your interest in mind croft. I don't even know what that would look like played minecraft. I don't even know what that would look. You just stand up per world and you do survival mode or whatever the case you choose what it is and anyone can be in a building. There shouldn't fighting stuff and you just end up three mance on the road or whenever you choose if people still playing you can leave it to be pissed extent. But it's just a world where anyone can build what they want in minecraft enjoy building ridiculous shifts. Yeah yeah. I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. I would not enjoy building ridiculous. Shit i don't like probably out on that really. I don't like building you know this. I don't like building been fun to me. So don't like it ain't night man okay like it. There's nothing about it. That's a feeling to me. That's a building. Like if if rust seriously if i had just like i go to like shop and buy a house. That's prefabbed and then i put it somewhere. And that's my house. And i can engage with all the looting and like all the other parts of the game. I would probably be obsessed with the game but the fact that there is fucking building mechanics and the game. It turns me off a hate it. i don't like it at all. I'd makes me. But i don't like it. Ninety percent of rest players build the exact same thing which is to squeeze knicks to to s- quiz with wolves. That's a much for me. I don't wanna have to learn. Like i don't want to like put into my memory like okay. This is i got to do this. And put this year and put this year and then built this. No it's it's not my brain hurts. My brain don't like it. This is fairly funny. Because like i love the building aspects of a lot of games. It's i had to dive. So you will despise factoria. Oh yeah oh yeah. Yeah i wanna know what like the seated childhood thing has made you hate building in games because like how. How do you reconcile like commander and concrete and stuff like that. Commander concha me. I don't really like. I don't really like those games either. So no now games. Fuck no hell no. I hate that shit. I don't like it at like i don't want to. I don't want to have to go through the motions of being like when you start for instance in like an art. Yes like Starcraft war Age of empires. Whatever like you start out. And then it's like i don't know what to do. What do i build the end. Then i build something. And i'm like well. This is an optimal and then people come in. And i'm like this is not fun like a part of this is like i feel like for an artist to be six or for me to enjoy an rtx like your starting point like whatever you build everything can be potentially successful. But that's not the way they work. It's like you got to build this. I got to build this and they got to build this. And then you build three of these and then you build this and this and this like. That's not fun to me. I i absolutely loved that i know. Yeah it's fine. I'm not saying. I'm not saying like no one should like it. I just hate it like i. Just don't think it's compelling or fun it makes my head hurt and Yeah amount not into it got i. I just love that worker. Three like having the perfect sequence where it's like making decisions. I or you know what i have to built the farm then. I have to build a little engineering and have to start an upgrade. This all feel so good i. He'll so good it's perfect and then you have people who take it a step further and q all of that stuff so like ten times the rate that anyone else's and i don't know is it. So is there any game that you've ever like actually enjoyed remotely the building mechanic in it. No i don't like it. I hate it. I think it's the worst part about any game that has it. I can't remember the fallout for mechanic. I hate it. I thought it was terrible. I it was never did one. It was terrible like it didn't work and it was like you can build a house but like the snappy you know like if you can build walls usually these things like snapped a position and it just kinda makes it easier. You didn't fuck and work at all and you had to do it to get the platinum so i spent hours building like just the stupidest shit that doesn't work you walk in and you're like wire the three doors. Those lonely ones that would fit. It's slap. it sounds very bethesda. There was i remember in fallout for. There is a mission that required you to build to finish the mission. And i was like pissed the entire time because i don't wanna fucking build like what the faulk I i don't know what it is like. Those games are like duct tape together like the developers can barely built within their own game. So the idea that then bethesda was like. Hey we're having a really hard time doing this. Do you want to give it a shot. You wanna take a crack at this at this game for us. Oh i don't know how does it well so you know you were just saying like you love talk of how does do you hate the gun building aspect. Does that translate across of like. Am i building the correct obese version of this gun for my money like does it is the building. I don't love is purely. I don't love it. Yeah no to be fair. I don't love that dark off. I i like it more than like building like a shelter that i'm going to stay in and hopefully it is strong enough to withstand a bunch of buchan. Astles that are going to raid my shit But i would prefer tarkhanov's gun building to be far more user-friendly one hundred percent like i'd like it to tell you like what like if you brought up a gun i'd like there to be like a drop down that literally shows you every attachment at can be fit on the gun rather than like. Oh this doesn't fit. Gotta try this. This doesn't try this. This doesn't fit. Like i'd rather it straight up. Just tell me like it. it exists. Oh you can do that yeah. It's called linked search. You just linked search links. That's fair. I i'm not about i might. I think it would do this. Legion in like one breath reviews. We were sending to each other through whatsapp right. Tell me about knowing search linked search. I would like it to be better than link. Searched the idea early like it to be. You see the gun on your screen and there's a drop down on the right hand side and you just click that dropdown and then all the parts are there as long and i could see like from a from a game play standpoint as long as you've identified that item at some point It's there it's there right. Well you know the you know. The link search is annoying as fuck me yet. You know the modding menu for gun where you like actually go into the cog and the gunzle well displayed on your screen and looks great. And then each area dropdown had like the first items. Were ones you owned. And then the ones had a specific color ones. You don't own but you could hover over and then select to buy them from that. Drop down. that would be an infinite debate a system than oh yeah. Yeah that's exactly what i'm talking about. Yeah i would like that more. But i don so while we Wh while we're looking for jetta. Aarp for mids. Renou also looking for the builder. Game for jared hearing jeffords disdain for builders i feel. It's less likely we will find a building. Game for jared then finding ajay oh. Pg for me. But i don't know. I think this is the thing it sounds like your anxiety comes from building the perfect shit in like autists games and i get that win. Like you know if you'd ever built a couple of like stuff playing starcraft and whatnot gun to play people who actually play starcraft. It's super disheartening. 'cause you have like balian established base in the skies already motoring you six minutes in with an entire base up and all that stuff. It's always pretty funny. The fucking saag. You're like over there. You're like oh. I got a bunker of terror and let me put two guys in three guys in and then nine thousand links hit you like what happened. Yeah that's the thing like And that's i never experienced one of those games where i am building optimally right and you know. That's all a part of like experience and repetition to understand those things. I get it but i don't like it just sucks because it's like my thought processes is like okay build up like you're far that makes sense to me right. We need farm to to create resources and better things right. And it's like i create my arm and then immediately. I'm like okay. I want this big very powerful fucking thing. Instead of like incrementally glade going up like building barracks and building this and then you built this. I'm like no. I want the powerful thing i like. Why can't i have the powerful thing. I and then i build it and then I get bum. Rushed by a bunch of fucking. You know peons Pawns but you know that's what you do. You're supposed to incrementally build up work your way up to you. Know those powerful things and my my brain is just like no. I don't want to go through these steps. I just want the powerful thing and it never it is. It is so satisfying when going straight to the top tier works. When you like straight. The frost worm or to the worms in a warcraft. Three and people manage to leave you alone. Suddenly you show up and just destroy a whole base in your you. Should you should pay more attention to me And then like there. I think blake intrinsically like the issue more than anything else is like people like brad brad. He is the most creative person. I think i've ever been around in my life. And he genuinely enjoys that aspect of games he would make back on far cry. I can't remember which worker but he made like maps that were so good that like ubisoft developers developers like put his maps on the front page of the search engines so people could like play the the maps because he would spend literally hours weeks days bucket building these like very like well curated maps and that i think just comes from like a level of creativity that you either have or you don't have and you know i have a lot of strengths And skills but none of them fall in the creative imaginative You know area like i. Just don't have it like if someone's like hey come up with a unique way too fucking. Think about this thing. I'm like i. this is not me man. i can't do like. This is not the way that i functioned so that that level of creativity that certain people have an enjoy like. I just don't have it. So i think that translates directly into these types of games where it's like. I have zero creativity in this realm and so it just isn't appealing to me. I just feel like an idiot. And i don't like to engage with things that make you feel like an idiot to be completely candid and honest. It's got to be the the game has got to be minecraft because there's literally no pressure to build anything like you can. Minecraft is for children. The children can play it. You can build in it and have what if any one you could. You could protest because you'll little like just enough to survive the night or you could build a fucking harry potter towel with something out of one of your j. o. P. g. games. I don as the question really boils down to this. Can you play the game without building at all. But yeah you black but does that is that reliant on i can play the game without building as long as i've got a friend that likes to build or is it. I can play the game and not engaged with the building mechanics at all and have fun. Right let me mechanics are there. But but if. I don't want to engage with them at all. I don't have to engage with them at all. I can survive through the night. I guess there's an dan night cycled. Sounds like i could do all of these things without building a fucking thing because if that is the case that may be minecraft will be the building game for me where i don't build anything but i'm gonna i'm gonna like build you a sims or sim city World that's already done and you can just go in and be like everything's running. Well can we get new road. All it'll it'll it'll be it'll be destroyed within a day. At least i like those upkeep type games like sim city and stuff like that Rollercoaster tycoon like all these types of games like Managing the setup. It just would be terrible for me. The one that interests me the most is that drastic mark one. That's like sim city but living dinosaurs. And like i it's on I've got it in my Epic game store library. And i'm like always hovering over it like should i- install this and try to raise some dinosaurs and then immediately. I'm like no. You shouldn't all the fucking dinosaurs are gonna die because you're terrible at this shin and then i don't do it the sole stimson jared killing time ago chea- when he was chose doodo. Yeah i had the tamagotchi. I was stoked. I got it really early on when they were like super popular. And i remember getting so frustrated with kamikaze. Because you've been alive. I just like why do you keep on dying. Why is there just shit. All over the place when i fucking come and visit. You sounds like you're much work died because of all the shit around easily noticeable problem. Yeah i dunno. I so maybe if we ever do stand up a mine crossover i will just build you a house to find. And then we'll i'll just build random properties across the soviet for you to go find so often bill. Yeah so. I didn't talk about this on the podcast and i felt pretty bad about it and i haven't found time to talk about it but angel one of the listeners and i played don't starve together Dope a few months ago. Yeah and so He's really into it and he's super knowledgeable and he is very good at it and he ran me through like a bunch of stuff In our play session. And i was very impressed with the game. I think it is very cool But the entire time. I was like i. I hate this like i. I hate so much like the survival mechanics gathering foraging like it's just not my thing man at all super cool hand. I'm supposed to play with angel at some point. But that's all that all that stuff is right up my alley. I love this and crofting and building. Shit jared. I might be opposite. Ends of the gaming spectrum like we might be polar opposites in terms of what we like. Which is a shooter a good thing. We do like shooters. That's true but i don't know i guess it's more of a in a in guess people can play. Don't starve i know. now i think I think he said if i remember correctly like six at a time what we all play four does look. Don't star could be wrong. I could be wrong. It could be four but it's definitely more than two in dotes. Starve together You can do a lot. That map is fucking huge as well. holy fuck air is so much Real estate and a lot of one thing i will say about it is like it is very interesting How every like region on that map is so unique and different and there's like a bunch of different challenges That you have to overcome in whatever region that you are you know in And then on top of that like the amount of characters in that game. That was one thing that i really liked about. It is like all there. There are a lot of characters now and they all have a lot of different skills and abilities that kind of You know help without The process unfortunately he told me leading up to it. He was like look through the characters. And tell me which one you wanna play. And i found this character that morphs into like different animals and i was like that sounds cool and he was like yeah all right but he was like. I don't have much experience with that character. But yes seems like a good one so pick that one and so the character can morph into a goose aware. Goose aware Elk and then era moose aware moose and then there's one other off form it can change into and they all do different things or you but for the first little bit we couldn't figure out how to morph into anything but the fucking goose so i just kept on morphing into the this and the accuses literally useless unless you are like mobbed by Enemies and then it's good Till i flee but we were trying to do like specific things. And i kept on morphing to the fuck and goose and not being able to help at all and then i couldn't figure out how to get out of goose form so i snuck in fucking goose for and it was not is not a good time for me. You the there's a lot to them india's of that game you got to kind of get familiar with it. I'm just so we don't get corrected. You're right and kind of i was right and it's how many people can play is a weird question for this game. It used to be four now at six but you can go into the settings and change it to sixty. Four watt jumped at it. You can go edit some text lines the gave and you can get sixty four people in there. That sounds like to the ground. Yeah i wonder. If angel is engaged in that i know he's played quite a bit with people of varying levels of skill in that game But he's he's really good he he. is like obsessed with it And told me that he used to play like all the time like every day. It's it's one of those games that he really really loves so it was cool with him to like show me and he was definitely passionate about it and hopefully i didn't come off as much of a dick because i was just like not having a good time at all but Ah there's a short right there. Jared hates building.
Sally Hepworth and Elwood Writers
"This is a three cr podcast and this is published or not. Selling hepworth has written many books in spoken about them on many occasions. And i'm sure she's being asked this question. Many times sally hepworth. Where did you get your idea. Feel latest book the good sisters. I have been off that one once or twice and the tree is that they were a few little things that played together to make this come to live and i guess the biggest one was my two daughters. I have a confession to make and that is that. I don't actually have a system so i kind of have a beat up in audacity writing a story called the good sixto which is all about sisterly relationships on but what i do have these two daughters who really have taught me a lot about what it means to be a sister and i remember the moment that i decided to write this book. It was beautiful die. I watching my little girls playing in the garden and they were squealing with happiness and it was all going really really well and then suddenly it tuned to those different kinds of squeals. Someone's baiting jude kind of squeals. And so i went to investigate. And when i did i found that my older daughter elway was crying and she had based ring of take knox in her upper arm and she was about six at the time in my younger daughter clementine was too and she was a pig conaco seat and so course you know. Naturally i went to reprimand. Clementine abiding has ceased and at that point elway the injured pot. He jumped in said. Don't you yell at my baby. Sister sort crazy because as someone who has two brothers. I can tell you that there was no great joy in my childhood. Then when my brother's got into trouble in fact still now at the age of forty there is no greater joy in my life than mountain tells them off and yet here is my daughter. she's just being beaten and she doesn't want to get into trouble and she actually sent to me. Don't worry mum. I'll get her back later. When she's not expecting it and then they went and they were plying again. And i just thought there is something about the that is different from brothers and sisters and is different from perhaps even friends and all the kinds of relationships special in its unique two sisters and that was you know there were various other things that played to these book but that was the moment that we will do away from him and i went to my office and i started writing. Nights would see stuff so you so the good the bad and your kids and developed into the story of twins rose and fun now. We hear their stories in different ways with An it's just really what's happening now. Rose is reflecting on the past. Now why is rose rushing journal. Well at the start of the book we find out that rises going through some difficult times in her relationship. Her husband has left and she is still really wanting to have a baby and so she's going to counseling to try and get her through. That and as of that counseling shea is writing a diary and that's of course like out. Sling that go back to childhood and she have to reflect on facial janette. Had when you're very young and and that's what rights does and so throughout the buki get these flashbacks to the life of frozen fan when they were very mutual that helps inform the characters will. There's been an incident the childhood which is still resonating with them today. This protection and trust that's part of the connection or as fern puts it and if you're not going to read from saudis kia the people without sisters think it's all sunshine and lollipops old blood and guts but actually it's always barth sunshine and guts lollipops and blood. Gooden bad the bad is essential to the relationship is the good. Maybe the bad is even more important because that what's times them together. Why does grows things. She needs to particularly i k so there are a couple of things i think. Part of it is to do with the fact that roy's is just more of a protective sister and often you say in these roles one of the more tight care if the other one but i think that a big part of it is that food is new. Roy is typical and this is never fully fleshed out in the book whether it is Autism or some other kind of narrow diversity because the has not been diagnosed and we find out that him on the didn't want to get her diagnosed because she felt strongly that was just and a liable wasn't gonna help her but it's obvious from the very first page very fifth line that foods as the world. A little bit. Different late you say. The cheese suffers from sensory. Absolutely has nattiest talked about sensory processing disorders in that to do specifically sound and lines and sorry for those raisins. she avoids crowds. She with sunglasses or goggles. If she goes out some way that's too bright. She tries not to go to shopping. Inches places that have got extreme either headlights and definitely not places that have got a lot of noise. Lasca at At a bowling alley exactly generally. She avoids those things that we say in the book that as things start kickoff. She thrust into isis that she would normally avoid. She can't read people's body language but she's learned to do things in certain circumstances now. She's particularly good at staring competitions. Why did she perfect that out. And i think that that is one of the things that people misunderstand about autism and about near a diversity. Is that people think well all near diverse people like the old. I can't do that or i don't feel empathy. They can't stare at someone because they have to avoid contact. And in fact one of the things i wanted to get across because i have got your diversity in my family is in fact if you have met one person with autism. You've met one person with autism. Some people who are autistic. A fantastic dairy competitions Because i it's staring competitions. And not. Necessarily i contacted something different and bathe. Because we're all different and in the book there it's been in. Wally probably nearer demus and yet they're very different. And the challenge is quite different. So i really wanted to get away from this one-size-fits-all image that we have about autism or the wada kind of umbrella of of near diverse people. And then just paying these rigid continuity little carrots. Because that's just not always whitey's wages food is a librarian which was a very important part of this book. I am a library lava. I have grown up going to the library. I as an adult and as russia i worked in a library at brushing my book so i packed up my computer every day. I took them to the library. And i wrote this whole book while sitting with the brockton library of this book is said i got my intel librarians from the by the by side library staff. I got a tour of the style. Herb and the showers and the bathrooms and all of the things there so it really just became sort of pop postle of this book. I think this is leading perfectly in only hepworth reading from page eight from her fantastic book a good system and this is in soon would talking about the place of her employment. The bayside library boasts two showers. Thanks to its flown the life as a hospital. So it's not uncommon for the heinrich to come coming to shower the first first time i saw harmless piff coming frontage. But that was before. I went to janet. My old supervisor. Janet told me that the library belongs to everyone. The library janet used to say is one of only a few places in the world that one does not need to believe anything will buy anything to come inside and it's the librarian job to look after all doors jury. I take this responsibility very seriously. Except if they require assistance with before coppins and then i'd give them a very want. Oh coping with technical stuff. She's very books and paper. So it's woolly the comes in looking for the shower yet. Molly comes in shaping the homeless man and she goes to talk to him and she assumes that he's heim listen in some ways he is but i won't give away all of those apps groce'll she's what what does it you know. Horon mind that the one way that she can help us sister is to become pregnant. We know as you've written. The rose is in complete contrast roses settled. She has a house husband. Owen a dog. And this desire to have a child you you've called her an ovulation kit wielding sperm testy temperature taking lunatic early in the book and discovers. That roy is is not able to to have a baby and she takes that into your mind and she thinks about that and of course as we talked about earlier. Roy's is a wise being very protective refund and has looked off to her and helps her leave her life while avoiding those noises crowds and things like that and so when discovered that. She can't have a baby she thinks about it quite pragmatically in things. I could have a by before her. And that's how. I could buy back for everything that she's done for me. But doesn't mention these terrariums rise nauheim she just. She takes it upon herself. She doesn't actually mention a to that. And this is where. I'm going to ask you to read from hedge thirteen because film takes everything. Yes she does and they say. I think this is when she has been on a diet with. Wally and i have come harm. And things are going pretty well especially when we can see that she wants to become pregnant so that back at fans apartments and that's why we stopped. Is it safe. He lost when we were both naked and he was offering me an odd question. I thought but then all supposed it was important. That one felt safe when they're in a new environment. I take a few moments to ponder these bodily tuning while it wasn't impossible that had been convinced into my flat at any given moment wielding a handgun. Nathan was my flat. War torn syria. Sorry after an appropriate amount of consideration on replied. Yes it's safe and that seemed to be the right answer because after that everything commenced robert quickly absolutely. Oh you had to tell rose about. Wally and we get roses indication from her journal. Not percent of old people with intellectual disabilities will be sexually assaulted in their life komi protective. But i'm going to make damn sure that my sister is going to be among the ten percent. Not sexually assaulted consultants say that. That tuesday sisters going into this whole love anxious sex interest in a completely different way. We learned from rose about the difficulty of growing up with a mother they They had as roy said everything. If you dig down fan of links back to mom love was conditional you had to an obama. We just found out halfway through the book. The martha was a round and things were happening with her. She was going to maybe be able to speak. Which which tents this book into. Just thought of as a simple story about sisters into a conniving story about sisters. i think we're going to leave it there. I'll tell you much. But i do think i guess that it's it's tested me to the fact that who we are that olds is so tightly linked back to app past and that really booms who we become and and that was definitely the case. We fit and rise. Graham stimson roach the rosie project. He also wrote about ucla with being an exceptional observer of people and their relationships not in his book. He gave a dental man who was on the spectrum. Juno expertise and you you'll given in karachi expertise so people on the spectrum need to have a superpower. Well it's interesting because As i said i have Autism in my family and it us we have been a big karate family for for various reasons but one is that the the repetitiveness of course especially the early use before the sparring. Stotts is actually a really good taught of sport for artistic people to. There's a lot of rules to follow. It's quite clear kat. It depends on the sensory issues. That people have sometimes can be difficult. But there's a lot of catis and things that they can learn but there's also of course someone who is different the requirement the need the desire as a parent to to make sure that they can physically defend themselves and so while it's not necessarily something that always goes hand in hand with people on the spectrum or near davis paypal. It is something. Just anecdotally that i have found to be common that that which is two kids Doing some sort of martial art and doing really well at it okay. Back to books and unloved book recommendations that third game in the library. I think they might have been some some of those oils is linked back to you rushing game if i know sach whenever i'm looking for and obviously there was lots of opportunities books in this. Yes when there was a book recommendation tonight that it was one of my friends got got a good and a couple of them. Didn't even know until recently someone told them and i said well. Did you not read my books. Thanks a lot recommend digest johns. And next week. I'm going to be talking to craig. Sylvia that he's new book honeybee which fits in very nicely. But i think we have to live with sally with having the last words and this is not the end from her book on. Page two hundred twenty seven. I don't think they could give any prey to it. Says sicily relationships asai strange. In this way the way i can be mad at roy's but still wanted to place her be terrified of her and also want to run to her her and love her both at the same time maybe when it comes to sisters boundaries that always a little bit glory blurred boundaries. I think a what sisters do except the wally finished up with. I think there is something very wrong with your sister. Sally hepworth as things. Huma with doc reality in the good sister. Thank you very much sally lights. Welcome thank you and now it's davidson. Every second tuesday is an anthology of stories compiled by elwood writers. Geneva bryson beverly thompson Here to talk about the group and some of those stories so jennifer welcome to three. Ci and berry. Welcome back firstly to you. Bury tell us a little about albert rogers. Well will dry. This is a writing group. Thirty four of us in the group. This myself and jennifer. Hello mcdonald's and log mccaffrey on we've been around since two thousand seven actually jennifer nine. I met at an event at the my brother jacqueline festival. Which is run by glen. Iris city council in two thousand seven and we started the group from other To join shortly afterwards. We right around across very different genres. It's very it's a convenient kind of show hands. Think of us as the pilots the memoirs the novelist on the story. But we do crossover into different genres from time to time jennifer. What's the value of such a writers group. Generally for you personally. Oh yes well. We're in touch with each other frequently. In fact i realized that it's rather like a work group in some ways and we're in touch with each other by email almost every day talking about our work or particularly recently about putting together this and solitary but i think right value is that we're all really seriously wanting to be good rushes. It's quite a serious group in some ways We're not competitive at all. As berry said we do tend to rot in different genre and so we really helping each other and quarterly on. We decided that we didn't need to pat each other. On the back we produce the pace of work and we'd say look what's wrong with this. How can it be improved and more recently. We've come to realize how important it is to ask. What's the actual intention of this. You're rushing so we help each other in this kind of way. We get together quite formerly every fortnight by just about every day where emailing each other finding each other at that particular rashly issues. Many of the stories seem to have a personal foundation. Now the first piece in the collection is one year right. Jennifer telephone rico. Tourist gets herself in trouble. Was this something you actually experienced. Not completely but as weeds. I think most of my stories anyway. There's always some incident that has sparked the idea to write the story. So i did actually go to bagi tie for my work and i was saved by myself for a weekend and i did climbed that mountain but thank goodness. I wasn't stopped by young boys with knives or rob during anything like that. There was simply the danger that mentioned and i did say. The tourist police dotted along the walking track. And i didn't find the telephone call to start off with The cable car. It's make to take you to the top of the mountain. So i did walk away up which was quite challenging on. Not say so. The was the truth of the incident. That i did climb that mountain and i was by myself and nobody else in the world new at that particular point that always climbing these mountains and that was supposed to be dangerous for tourists. Were you conscious of crafting the pace because it begins with bells and we never truly no way we have but we get clues along the way. I wasn't as aware of crafting. And giving the redick clues as to where we might be. I think didn't mention the actual city that it was bogus tied that i had in mind on. The bill is quite true that i was working in the morning by the sound of this bill. I have no idea who is ringing. Ish i the man with one truth or whatever. But i loved the idea of waking up with bill and i was very aware that the people they were very faithful. It was a very catholic city and it was dominated by The statue of christ at the top of a very high mountain. It's also got a good samaritan feel to it along the way but we'll move on berry there's a section in the collection commemorating honest die and this story of yours khloe the resonates a young boy off the war and his only understanding of women comes from that portrait in young jackson's yet it is very loosely. Based on the poetry of clarence quite famous painting which times in young and jackson has for some time. Now is a little bit of a tourist attraction. And i wanted to write the story. I thought that was a very good kind of hook for that story. And as i was writing the story at became aware that i had to go down the road of being very factual about painting or to just let my imagination run riot and just use it as the prompt much of the second option so it may not be the maybe aspects of the storage on. Actually factually starkly accurate in some of the painting. Because i wanted to just go with the imaginative down imaginative route. But if you say this after it was a very interesting idea that this very young man he is about to go off to a states who will and his own experience of women is going to be agent so he's left in a position where his resource as whereas sexual resource is his own body and his imagination and we also get a glimpse into the future. While because i'm khloe has some kind of ability to see a passi- fight might be and so we do get a glimpse into the fact that this this boil. This young man is never gonna have any physical contact with another passan. Tori is an iconic image and it actually does appea- in the works of australian literature. I'm thinking of summer of the seventeenth. Doll workers congregating at young and jackson's opposite linda's station so it has a very pivotal place in a lot of the events that have taken place in australia. There are also poetic interludes in this collection. Often by helen. Macdonald is one of them called twelve. I stand at the edge of the class. Sheltering in the sweep of the holy abbot. A poor sucking time from this. I i thirty faces. Swindlers won a seismic wave breaking the stillness. This cluster of blue conformity sweating likely in the stuffy. Ed curious is strife the new the one from across the seas. I am in this other world by. They look the same as me. I- nestling to a habits folds than our knowledge atip towards the unknown pushes me over the line and need to the end of the beginning on just wondering jennifer is there. Much collaboration or advice offered between the members when it comes to these different forms and genres that appear in the book. Oh certainly will. We would've oh being very familiar with that poem. Because helen would have presented to add group when when we were making and we would have already and commented on us and made suggestions and if there were if there were lines a words that were a bit obscure to as we would say and i seem to keep on having suggestions about the rhythm of the poetry that that something that appeals to me very much so we don't collaborating terms of actually washing the poem together that we provide a lot of common tree at a typical thing would be ellen would presented to the group as who worked for the fourth or whatever and we would make suggestions and she might very well take it away. Work honored to be more and bring it back next time. Lastly i mean. Another contributor is migrate mccaffrey. I love the pace. She has on honoring. Its talked to that as a almost like a meditative marivan berry. Do you deliberately encourage people to write about the ordinary things like that like awning and to see what ammonites from that sort of focus. It's very interesting that you picked up on that movie. Because i think a lot of stories do focus on very own ravens in lives. I'm not willing to deliver thousand something that we said. Let's let's relate a lot of stories that Address the same electron from that particular place that that was. The theme not emerged on many of the things in the book as we put the collection together as the anthology together we did notice these the run through that of magically imagining identity. How quiet how that happened. I think a lot of students the fact that we do meet every second tuesday so we do spend the time in each other's company in rights lee way and so perhaps as a kind of the fan collegiate aspect of things are we. You know these are things that we will have discussed. Looked at you. Know that kind of celebratory medicine piece. I think does run through how interesting things can be found in the every day. Thank you both for your contribution. Today the book is every second tuesday. It's an anthology compiled by the ellwood writers. And you've self published this work very yes. We told that would probably be the easiest way to go. I mean it was through right with enterprises of tuesday. The greek is the publish it but we thought we wanted to have complete control of creative control over the book an editorial control so we thought that was probably the best way for us to got jennifer. Barry thank you very much talking. We've made today absolute pleasure. Thank you for having a statement. Enki david will join the texas out for another week on. Look more books to read the next week. More is to chat with see well. Let's hope that you've been listening to a three podcast produced in the studios of independent community radio station three sia in melbourne australia. For more information go to all the ws dot three cr dot org dot edu.
10X Your Impact using YouTube with Liz Germain
"As a search engine youtube can pull up our content at at the drop of a hat. Twenty four seven three sixty five. No limits from anywhere in the world whereas facebook and instagram. Once you posted it it gets you know. After a couple of days unless it goes viral it gets buried into archives. And it's very hard to find that content again. So i think that for me was a major turning point realization. A moment if you will whereas like oh wow well. Why don't i just search shifting my energy towards the things that are working the best for the longest period of time. Remember that my whole intention was. How do i work smarter not harder and that was the that was really the the kicker for me to get stop spending all my time on these social media apps and not to mention. I don't i don't really you've mentioned facebook. Facebook has its pros and cons. But i think we're seeing a major shift now with clubhouse to listening to the he fluids podcast and we're having candid an actionable conversations about your health relationships business and ministry and now here's your host. The second chance coach for men. Michael david huey. Welcome to another session of the he fluence. Podcast it's kinda cloudy day here in florida today. It's and and what's really sad. I'm not complaining because like the whole nation is like freezing right like and and for freezing for us sixty right and we've had some fifties and forties and even a couple of weeks ago. We had some thirties. Which for florida is kind of weird and And i know my guest today was used to be in california. And i'm assuming that she's a little bit colder than where she used to be like. I think I think so. So so I don't know maybe she likes to cold. I don't know but maybe she'll tell me about that. But i know she's been traveling and having some fun Which is always is always good. I noticed some pictures of her. Just having fun right and I think She's been an encouragement to me by just following her and learning from her. And we were just talking about you know doing affiliate programs together and when it comes to Youtube it was funny i was. I was putting in a system with my coach today. Because we've had about one hundred leads a week from clubhouse right and it's just been crazy and liz made a great video if you haven't if you're new to clubhouse liz has a video on youtube that i think it's my wife says about eighteen minutes long and we just send it to everybody. Hey we show me how to use clubhouse on mike no but my friend lives can and i'm like you know just watch your video and they're like well. How long is i said it's about eighteen. Nineteen minutes long right. And it'll tell you everything you need to know and one of the things. I think i like that. I've learned from from liz. Is that she. She doesn't just. She gives you value but she teaches you exactly what you need to know. There's really no guessing. Game right. Like and i believe this you know even though we know that that youtube is the second largest search engine the world we we know that people are like i hate facebook and lives doesn't go on facebook that much anymore but i kinda we we kinda laugh i think facebook is kind of club houses kind of made a massive impact on facebook really because i had like a thousand. I didn't really like instagram. Had like a thousand followers. Liz and now i've got almost four thousand followers in like three or four weeks because of clubhouse mike how did that happen right like it's just like constant and being in my industry in the health industry I it's just crazy some of the things that we've done and and and so. Liz domain is the founder of influence right and she helps on line. Businesses grow and monetize youtube using videos marketing automation and youtube. Seo right. she's a leading expert in youtube organic strategy. I love organic. If you don't love organic something's wrong. She's helped generated over one hundred million organic youtube views and tens of thousands of leads for her clients. All around the world like she talked about this the other day she was alive and she was talking about all the things that she's learned from helping people do video right like what a better life like. She gets all this advice for free from people that she's actually helping right and and if you're listening on on any of the platforms you can't see. Listen i but she has an award that she received from helping people with youtube right Her marketing strategies have helped people make millions and millions of dollars. And i'm excited. Because i'm going to listen to everything. She says and continued to make millions and millions of dollars. So liz germain welcome to the podcast i am. I'm so honored and privileged at. You're here and i just call you a friend. And i'm grateful for you. So thanks for being here for halloween. Ruins needs influence. This is like an obvious collab- exactly right right and and it's funny. You say that. Because when i first started he fluence. Everybody thought it was directed towards men right and when my friend Kevin devante stimson kind of helped me through my my branding right. We just wrote like hundreds of names on a chalkboard and we just kept racing things until we got down to he being god an influence meaning he influencing made influence people right. And if you obviously as. I said you can't see me and liz but behind me as a little banner that i've had for a while in my big office in our new house that has a little arrow pointing up the shield and so yeah so Vid fluency and he flew. So it's awesome. So i feel like i know liz a little bit. I i will say this She's a lot happier nowadays than i've ever seen before and and i've always asked. How's the dating scene gone and not so good. How's the dating scene gone. Not so good but now she can't say it's not so good because she has this big smile on her face. Right now is we're talking. So why don't you share your story. Real quick that people so people can kind of get to know where you started where you come from. Maybe we'll dive into some really cool things. I just told her. I said i'm excited just to to know a little bit more about her and then let people know let people kind of see how she helps people the way she does so share way my friend. Okay so be the cliff notes background. I was born and raised in michigan. A was not taught really health and fitness or health and wellness skills. Growing up. just really not a part of the midwest culture. It's very much a part of the west coast east coast. You know the coastal towns in big cities. There's a lot of for health in you. Know it's kinda like a part of the lifestyle there when people are just always exercising especially sunny out all the time easy to go outside go for hikes. You know go to your workout classes all that. But i didn't grow up with that and so I was overweight for the most of my life and i had a really Transformational experience in the death of a close friend and that just completely changed the way he was nineteen years old and that completely changed the way that i see life in general and also the way that i was showing up in my life before i was getting into a lot of bad circles. Being around a lot of bad influences certainly was not prioritizing. May help had no idea. What you know entrepreneur entrepreneurship even really meant. And then i had that life changing moment. Where all of a sudden a nineteen year old has gone and it made me realize. Oh wow we can really don't. We're not guaranteed tomorrow. And i still have time to change the rest of my life and i'm going to and so in that transition. I decided that no matter what i was going to do. Everything in my power to become physically mentally emotionally financially and spiritually rich wealthy. Happy healthy and part of that decision for me meant that i needed to get out of my comfort zone so i moved all the way across the country to california. Didn't know anyone there finish up. School was trying to figure out what it was going to do. I ended up finding this program at. Ucla called the fitness leadership program. I was in that for two year. I worked for them for two years after. I completed that program as a fitness instructor and personal trainer for and during that time had questions from a lot of the students in my classes of like what. What was the exercise that we did on on tuesday. Or you know you mentioned that it's important just as important to be eating clean and healthy as it is to be to your workouts. But i don't really know how to cook. I don't really know how to substitute ingredients. They don't really know how to how to do that in the kitchen. So my sister. And i kind of follow my footsteps. She also got into. She was in the same program at ucla. We started a little blog to share resources with our personal training clients as well as the the group fitness attendees in the classes and wheels. The started a little instagram account. Pinterest account we set up youtube back then but we didn't really use over like we're going to this might as well just set up all the accounts and We after a couple of months of just posting healthy alternative recipes swaps so we would take things like pizza and turn it into a healthy version of using cauliflower pizza crust and you know all homemade natural ingredients or we things like double chocolate fudge. Brownie is and make healthy protein brownies out of them with way. Less sugar way less calories all often so we were posting all these resources for the people that we knew in l. a. And what happened was after a few months of that we started to get comments on instagram in on the blog and things like that people from peru from the middle east even from the uk from australia new zealand is all over. The world. Commenting saying thank you. Can you do one for this specific issue right. I guess i'll be eating mac and cheese. How do you make that healthy. I want that one. I want that one. Yeah right those are all. These are pouring in from all over the world and we also at the time seen a couple of other Health and fitness influencers. This was like back in the early days of what it means being influenced or were they had these big audiences that was like their full business. Was they're running these online programs so we decided to do one of those and we're hoping to get ten women enrolled we launched it. I think we charged twenty dollars for it because we didn't know where we are doing and this was in my early twenty s and We ended up having three hundred and fifty s some women from around the globe. Sign up for it and and it just like you know. There's not a whole lot of money when you're only charging twenty dollars but for us at the time in my early twenties working different jobs just to make ends meet in l. a. which is one of the most expensive places you could choose to live It was significant for us at the time and also showed us that it was possible to make money online and so We kind of put all of our eggs into the line. Business basket and from there started continuing to develop those campaigns and all that and before we knew it a couple years later we we ended up serving over one hundred thousand women in thirty two different countries around the world did quite well financially without company. What ended up happening is my sister. A few years ago got married and so wanted to start a new business which is currently doing quite well. Also it's called custom crafted vans. Were they take sprinter bands and rip out the interiors create luxury tiny homes inside of them and so they started a second channel. I was helping them. You know put together the back end from everything that we learned from that. I stand in that year of transition. I was helping them. Build the second thing because i don't really want to do the fitness stuff on my own anymore. Appointed been five six years working fitness. And there's only so many times that you know had grown so much as a person in that time and it just wasn't as much of passion. It's still very much a passionate hobby in a part of my lifestyle now but there's only so many times that i could answer the same questions over and over and over and so i wasn't really sure what i was gonna do. I took a year off. Had all this money coming in from a program. Sales from youtube from brand deals and sponsorships. So just i off You'll probably appreciate this. I was like. I don't wanna push myself to the next thing enforce myself into what i should be doing. I want to be led by a higher power. I want to have that poll motivation. I want to be. I want to see where the source universe. God whatever you call it wants me to go. I don't want to impose my ego in my own human limitations on that process and also parents definitely looked at me like crazy. They're like why don't you just hire xyz like no trust me. I need to have a message. I need to have something come from somewhere else to really guide me something like a message from truly god and so in that year. I just traveled. It was really kind of anxiety ridden. Because i'm like can have his business. Should i keep running it or should i do something else. What's going on here eventually. Over time people would ask about like what you just said. I saw you were in this country. It looked like you were having a lot of fun. I saw you in thailand. Then i saw you in peru. I saw in japan. What do you do. do you even have a job. i know i do. follow up. Question was always growing channel. How do you monetize a youtube gentle. I got that question probably twenty thirty times over that year and it became very clear. Okay there's obviously a market need. I could easily teach people how to grow monetize their youtube channels so through together My first year to beta program to teach people how to do all the things we'd already done and it went really well and doing that ever since. So that is how influence came to be born in the last two three years. I've just been focused on you to consulting youtube strategy and helping with the beginner level client. Who's brand new to youtube. And maybe new to business as a whole as well as the advance. Seven figure eight figure business owners that need more technical strategy with their with their content. Planning and all of that. So that's kind of my story in a nutshell that's awesome. That's awesome or the the soon to be this year. Seven figure earners. That really doesn't know a lot about you to like but wants to know about you too. So that's meat. So i and it's funny because i think i just wanna say this because i've already taken michael page so this kind of a little bit better but this is always funny. We always my team. And i always laugh and all my friends laugh when they listen to my podcast and they say it's amazing how god orchestrates all of your guests like lizard. I've been trying to do this for a while. I screwed up the last time. I and then and then the time before when i was going to. We're going to do an interview. My my nose. Just now find this. How my drive and my computer crashed. That was what the problem was. Last time we were on zoom computer was crashing and literally two days after that crashed so i had a new hard drive and it was just funny but but we have such a similar past. I'm from ohio. She's from michigan right. I lost a good friend of mine. Who was nineteen years old who crashed and died also So all these similar things Athlete in college. I became super successful in the brick and mortar fitness industry. A little bit older than liz. Obviously but the the funny thing about that is i don't feel my age like i One of the we went out to dinner the other night in the owner of the restaurant. Who comes to me all the time and says hey mike are are. Are you celebrating. Forty this year and i was like yeah sure frank right and he was like no and then and then the waiter said hey no i think he's like thirty six. I was like. Let's try fifty two about fifty three right. But i think a lot of that has to do with with how you how people perceive the way you act like in the way you talk in the and the things and the influence that you make on people right like and so from a mindset like you said you know you just got tired of doing what you were doing and i. I really got burnt out. From the fitness industry. I was super successful. As in the top one percent of in the eighties and nineties and early two thousands right. And then i sold that business. And i was like i built residual income and then like what am i gonna do now. Like what am i going to do right. And i was just like. Wow this is fun right like and then and then and then all my peers were like well. Aren't you going to fulfil the next season of your life like what you can do right. And i'm like no I'm just going to date girls and have fun and do all this crazy stuff. And i did some modeling here and there and i was like well enough enough like this is crazy. Like what am i doing with my life. And then god just got gave me as we're talking like hey i'm over here like let's let's get this moving forward right and so That's i'm so glad that you shared all that. So tell me about your transition now like some of the things that you're doing some of the people that you're working and the benefits of youtube right like why is youtube the second largest engine and before you say that i'm just gonna say something really funny how i love and i've heard liz say this like if you wanna fix something you know. Just go to youtube right like. She was saying the other day. Like i've learned about health and learn about solar and i've learned about all these these things right like. She doesn't even have to go to youtube. Everybody just helps people do it and then she gets to learn about it right and and and and when we first moved into this new house where we're we're building and so were renting from a guy and never before had i seen anybody ever say well you're responsible for the washer and dryer now. Mike what like this is part of your house. Like how are we responsible for that. And then one day it held our close captive like it would not open. I was like trying to pull the door. And i'm like i'm gonna break it's gonna cost me five hundred dollars right. So what do i do. I tell my wife call somebody to fix it and then two days later i was like no just go to youtube and type in the name of my washer and dryer. And what's the problem is and it literally said take off these twelve bolts and on the inside. There's this little white lever you pull it in the door open. And i was like two weeks. We waited two weeks for close to sit in there. They didn't smell real good when they came out. And the literally. The door popped open. I put the bolts back on and it was fixed right all of that time we just should just typed it in so tell me why youtube is so important for you and how it's affected a lot of people's lives from your perspective. Yes so not only. Did they get all those people ask asking how. How do you do that. Also when my sister left. I looked iran company audit for the entirety of the company. Not just the year that she left the the whole the whole existence of it. Because i had just lost half of leadership team right so i had to start working. A law smarter not harder and so step number one is to get the data so pull the pull the full on company audit figured out. What our lead sources. And where's the highest return on investment whether it's time to add campaigns or something or energy creating organic content posts and i was pretty surprised to discover even though i was spending so much time on instagram. Content is literally on there every single day finding the hashtags making the post. They didn't have stories back then but even still today. I imagine a lot of people are probably posing stories every day. And that's all well and good but for me. I recommend anybody listening to this. Does this go look at. Where are the most leads coming from. And what is the highest return on investment for the least amount of effort put in okay and so i did that and i was surprised to find out that even though are spending all this time on social media apps the highest traffic sources and highest converting traffic sources were youtube and pinterest. Now's like what the heck so weird. We only post once a week on youtube and pinterest is just like kind of an afterthought we were just sharing images on a blog and pinning them to our account but what i discovered was both of those are so different because our search engines so they work very differently. They don't work on a timeline feature so on social media apps like facebook instagram and now even clubhouse there all time bound you have to do things within a certain timeframe so on instagram facebook etcetera. You post something you've got about twenty four to forty eight hours for that to pick up speed in order for it to be continued to displayed to new people youtube pinterest. Do not work like that at all. You do the work. Once if you optimize it for discover ability using things like keywords suggested video strategy all of that and you have good engagement on those videos you do work wants and it can pay off forever to give an example of this. We partnered with several different companies and brands. Over the years of my fitness company. In one such case study which was one of our most successful brand deals. We partnered up with a natural. Women's birth control are alt so for people that didn't wanna put hormones in their body which that's a whole nother conversation We partnered up with this natural I think the company is called natural cycles. And it's essentially teaches women how to be in tune with their cycles through measuring their temperatures. And that was something. I didn't even know you could do growing up. I don't know why no doctor or gynecologist ever told me that. So we're like absolutely. We'll we'll definitely do a partnership deal with the. Oh we made a video and this was about four years ago that still brings them in a couple of hundred leads per month and this was four years ago so they paid us one time to create that content educate other women that this is an option an alternative possibly healthier option for people and it's still paying off for them for years later so i think it's really important understand that distinction of the timeline feature as a search engine youtube can pull up archived content at the drop of a hat. Twenty four seven three sixty five. No limits from anywhere in the world whereas facebook and instagram. Once you post it you know. After a couple of days unless it goes viral it gets buried into archives and it's very hard to find that content again so i think that for me was a major turning point realization. A light bulb moment if you will whereas like oh wow well. Why don't i just start shifting my energy towards the things that are working the best for the longest period of time remember my whole intention was how do i work smarter not harder and that i think was the that was really the the kicker for me get stop spending all my time on these social media apps and not to mention. I don't really you mentioned. I don't like facebook i mean. Facebook has its pros and cons. But i think we're seeing a major shift now with clubhouse to coming on the scene where where it's making it a lot easier to grow. Facebook owns instagram. Google owns youtube so when facebook acquired instagram this is kind of what happens with these social platforms. And i wouldn't be surprised if this happens with clubhouse down the road is well. Hopefully they can. You know mitigate some of these unfortunate practices but what happens is a bunch of people get on these platforms and then the company's block access to visibility and they make you pay them to be shown for the content even if someone followed you. You don't always see the content from the people you're following because they have these pay walls they wanna push people into doing advertising with them or boosting posts to just have that timeline space so knowing that that's the case and also now that you know there's an alternative with youtube where it doesn't necessarily work outweigh. Youtube is an open creator platform. Where again you do. The work wants it can pay off forever. that's a it. It helps to make a big distinction and it helps you make that decision. Because if you're like me and you don't want to be on your phone twenty four seven you don't want always you know have have instagram stories of your every single meal breath that you take throughout the day. I i can't think of a worse reality. I just no thanks. i'm content. that lasts a lifetime. Yeah and so. i'm just going to. I'm going to say invalidate her. She is like like she's not on social media all the time like a lot of people are. She's very intentional about things. She shares and even responding to things. Like i know she's not on her phone all the time if it is you know it's definitely not on social media and the reason i said about facebook is is we had really good we. We run some small campaigns For our group. Coaching because a lot of our stuff is with our dna testing and and i believe will create multiple seven figures s and and. We did in back during the election lives. We did A challenge of five day challenged and we had been doing them. And we've been making seventy five to one hundred thousand. Because i just didn't really want to get too many people in our program where we couldn't service them right so we were. We were getting seventy five to one hundred thousand dollars four times a year so that was an extra four hundred thousand dollars a year right for us and we're like hey we're not spending a whole lot of money a lot of its organic. We're doing really well with the amount of money that we spend you know and then in no and then in november during the election time i was like oh let's spend ten thousand dollars on ads. Let's do a challenge. We always make one hundred thousand dollars or more when we do And we made nothing like literally are. Yeah like we. We made our money back. Just say that right and the funny thing was is that our content was disappearing and are are there was people coming in like three hundreds of people coming into the challenge. Like two and three weeks after the challenge was over. I was like really facebook like really like these people signed up to in three weeks ago right and so liz said it like if you if i'm if my stuff on youtube you know it's it's But also like you said. There's there's tricks to you too. There was a video Just recently it was on youtube. That was taken down off of youtube. That was From a lady. That i met dr simone gold and she talks about covert right and she goes into hydroxychloroquine and all this stuff and it was very like what a lot of my friends think about it and and you know the the the the the vaccine right now right like the experimental vaccine and literally she had millions and millions of views and my wife posted it on facebook and within three minutes she got a text and a response back from facebook saying parcel truths right and then within an hour of that. We noticed that that video had been taken down off his youtube. Of course it's vinicio now and you can. You can play it on other sites but like you said that algorithm stuff and how that change so lee. Ann and i'm gonna. I'm just gonna tell you guys ahead of time on at the end i'm gonna tell you how you can get an and this will be on the post when we we spread this across the internet and our email marketing campaign and stuff that people can get to know liz. I'm going to talk about. Her course is phenomenal in about how you can work with liz too. But if i'm new. And i'm just starting on youtube like i am now right at. How would i get started. What would be something that you may be a couple of tips that you could give us that For the beginner would be really good for them. Starting off with they were starting. a youtube. Channel is a great question so now that we understand the distinction between what i call interruption. Marketing versus exploration marketing really. It's important understanding. There's only two ways to get client or to get a customer number one. Is you go to them number two. Is they come to you so things that we teach influence our. How do you get people to come to you so that you're not using that interruption. Marketing tactic where either you're doing paid odds to get it on. Someone's timeline or your your social media rat race to get your content on a timeline consistently every single day. So instead we want to be looking at these exploration marketing strategies so when it comes to your youtube channel this is something. I learned straight from youtube. There are three types of content. The every all the fastest growing highest engaged channels on youtube. Have they learn this several years ago. They're looking at what makes the good deals better than these other ones that they found these patterns of content. So there's three different types. Break them down first. And then we'll we'll go into which one you should start with so number one is hero content. Then there's help content then there's hub content so we'll start with hub because this is where people accidentally start and it's not where you should start so hub. Content is like the meat and potatoes of your channel. It's what you're known for. These are these specific techniques or methods that you teach on It's like you're faq section. What are people what people come to you to get the answers on over and over and over. What are known for hub content could be re purposed podcasts episodes. They could be re purposed facebook. Live interviews They could be just the day in the life like more of a blog style. Video the problem with hub content is that it's four people that already know who you are case. So it's not gonna do you any favors in getting new people in the door the next type of content but it is really great for people that already know you you get to go deeper with him okay. So the next content is hero content hero. Content is really only designed to be put out once or twice a year and these are more storytelling videos so when you see a viral video. Those are all essentially hero videos. Okay one i was telling you about right like the simone gold like like where it's just everybody's watching it and then finally it's gone and you can't find it anymore right. Yeah so hero. Videos usually take someone through a hero's journey or they'll take a stance on a controversial topic like the experimental vaccine right so hero videos once or twice a year for people who already know who you are. And they're designed to deepen the emotional bond that that prospect viewer or ideal client has with you These are videos that people feel like they can identify with because the focus is on building not emotional bond. So when you're taking someone through either an origins like what does the why behind your brand. How did this movement come to be Or it could be you know capturing in experience at a tent pole event which is like a one time event maybe a maybe a digital marketing conference or something of the sort Whereas not as part of your comments strategy but you're throwing it in there anyway. This could also be like taking a stance on a controversial topic and really planting your flag in the ground. And saying this is what i stand for. We saw a lot of that in twenty twenty. So that's an understatement. Right like we saw a lot of that. And i think it's going to continue this year. I think i think yes so hero. Videos are usually in that five ten minute range. And they typically take someone through that hero's journey so the beginning is like here's all the shock-and-awe like this is what's wrong with the world or this is what's wrong with this industry isn't it. This feels so hopeless. I can't believe this is the case rate. And you're using doom and gloom like really intense music not like dub stafford techno-music. You're using your your music to match the moon of emotion on the person to feel so you're taking them through this almost doom and gloom like this is what is the biggest problem with xyz industry and then in the middle of the video. Have a turning point realization. So the story of losing a friend. That's a great turning point realization. I used to be all of this. Or why is it that old women are subjected to xyz. Or why is it that you know being a parent wire moms always tired. Why are you know. Why is it that this bad thing happens in marriages. Sometimes right so you're kind of highlighting the problem. You're aggravating the problem by pouring salt in the wounds so to speak and really painting the picture of where someone currently it's than midway through the video. You have like this realization where something happens that changes your entire outlook on it. You're either exposed to new information that you had no idea you figure it out your on strategy You had a tragic life changing event like you and i will have There's a turning point realization where everything changed and then the second. Video is inspiring hopeful. Call to action to join us. Join this movement if you want the same mindset shift around this if you identify with us view also agreed that this this original thing we were just talking about. It is a problem. Come be a part of the solution. And so then you're using this uplifting happy inspiring sounds and music and be role in all this painting that picture But these types of videos obviously they do require more storyboarding. There's a lot of human psychology that goes into them and they're only four. Maybe once or twice a year so you don't really wanna put a ton of time or focus when you're just getting started on youtube into hero content because that can come as you go the place that everyone should start. If you're brand new to us. He was by creating help content. So you said it earlier when someone has a problem challenger a question that they cannot figure out and they don't wanna wait two weeks to have a you know a mechanic come over and help them on. What are they do. They google or youtube to watch a tutorial video for how to fix it themselves. The google owns youtube as well. So when you know that if you can get into the mind of your ideal of your ideal client and start figuring out. What are the top ten to twenty questions this person's going to have around this specific outcome results and how to get there then create content around that instead of just the ideas that you think they wanna see. You can go to cuba research in and look at the search data and see what they're actually looking for so even the difference between one or two words with the way you title. Your videos could mean the difference between fifty people looking for that tournament or fifty thousand people looking for that tournament so it's important to identify. What are those problems challenges or questions. And how can i solve those people in my videos and then to develop the skill of keyword research so that you actually create the content in a way that youtube algorithm will pick it up and show it to the most people possible so that would be just general better understanding of what content to start with and in kinda just a breakdown of where you're going to be going over time with content. Okay so i always say this. Live the difference between wisdom and knowledge is action. So if you're listening to this and you just heard what my good friend said like. Let's go to work right like so i'm going to ask you one more question and then i'm gonna let her tell A little bit about how you can reach her how you can connect with her. How you can buy courses. Maybe how like. I said how you can work with her because Just listening to her now. I was just saying that to to her. I i think what. I've learned recently in for me is is I'm reading a good book right now. That i think every entrepreneur every human Who's ever lived and breathed should read. It's a book called boundaries and is by dr cloud and dr towns and i don't know if you've ever read it lives but ed well i'll tell you this i'm reading it for the third time. I read it when. I was in my twenties when i was in my late thirties. And now in my fifties right and and the basis of the book is is And you can't put it down. It's hard literally. I'm gonna read tonight. is is basically when to say and when to say no right like the timing of everything like like to work with somebody win to learn to grow like you know when to post things what things to post like you just gave me like a acknowledgement of some things that really just kind of gives me some confirmation of things and so i'm just grateful for you in any way that i can listen learn and and it's really funny. I told liz this. When we first met i was like have a friend of mine that does youtube but i think he's too busy and My friend sean. Kano and i interviewed him on my on my he's in my platform and i'm like But i think. I'm gonna use liz like i'd rather just useless and i don't think he was mad. I think he was just like well. And he's my brother in christ so it's like I i just. I said this jokingly said like she looks better the new by the way and i'm close with him and his wife to and so i was just like you know you you and that's the part boundaries of saying yes and saying no sometimes i'll be honest with you sometimes doing business with an listen. I have friends too. It's not like we're not friends right like we were friends like she knows that i've invested in our friendship over the years. Like just checking on her encouraging her praying for her. You know just things that little things here and there just texting her our messaging her and saying. Hey how are you doing. I was just thinking about you today. And thank you for all you do with people and you know hey. How's your relationship going. You know little things like that. But i think that that's what builds trust right that. Lets builds the no like trust factor. So that you know who you want to do business with. I think doing business with some of the closest people that you know is not always a good idea and i learned that the hard way when we lost a half a million dollars in two thousand eighteen twenty nineteen because i took the word of a friend rather than praying and listening to who god wanted me to use it now. I'm no longer doing that anymore. I'm always focused. You know liz. This is funny. And then i'll let you answer. This question is I had a friend of mine. I had daniel quack on my on my podcast a couple of weeks ago in. I don't know if you know his story but he went from living in his car pastor's son To building these massive seven figure businesses. And i asked him what was the difference and he said well. I used other people's money. Because i didn't have any right. And he said he said. I instead of setting goals. I set standards and expectations. I was like okay. I'm doing that right. And that's what i did in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. I sat standards. And then i held myself up to that standard. And then i've i've begin to boundary the people that i listened to right like i told you i was in col- hatters mastermind for two years. And what i did we won the monumental business word at thrive in two thousand nine hundred and and people ask me like what did you do different than what you did in two thousand eighteen and then on after that and i said i chewed up the meat and spit up the bones and then i just eliminated the people out of my life that i didn't really feel like giving me the value that i was giving them. I loved them. I had to protect myself if that makes sense right and i'm sure it lives if you can see you're not you. You guys can't see us. But liz is shaking her head. because she's jenner stands that she understands boundaries and that so to finish up and then you can share with people how they can connect with you and stuff but Tell me some things that you're working on some things that you're about because i know there's several things in your life that you're probably excited about right now but Just yeah tell me something that you're excited about and what you're working on right now. That can bring some encouragement and yeah. I'm excited here. So okay i'll share with you. The thing that i'm most excited about this is like so huge for me and my company Recently decided to become anti of daryl. eaves. I don't know if you know who that is. But he's basically like the godfather of youtube personally on seventeen different channels all over a million subscribers. And so it's like is very rare that i'm around someone who doesn't know more than youtube or who who knows more than youtube than i do and i'm also a big believer that to be an incredible consultant leader and coach and business owner myself. I also need to be investing in that for myself. So that i can serve on a higher level so he disagreed actually yesterday to mentor me for an entire year. I'm i cannot wait to see how his strategy can help ve influence help all the other thousands of people that come to us for youtube support and i'm very excited to see what happens over this next year. Not just for for my company but for literally all the even even your company. This'll probably change. Some of the you know the the strategies and techniques that we teach. Obviously i'm not going to be repurposing. His content or or sharing the the secrets that i am under an nda for But just being able to be mentored by somebody who is like light years ahead of even where i'm at with a youtube world is so exciting to me and i cannot wait for that and then yet in general i think just being able to you know my company we we were able. We were blessed to bring on a couple of new team members last year. So it's been really nice to be able to to have this has been smiling more like i have a little bit more time to myself to be able to do things i want. Hang on my boyfriend and my dogs and just work on more. Lay personal life stuff. So those i think would be my top two awesome. She's a dog lover. If you guys don't know her she's a dog lover and it's funny my my friend. Ben davidson is i. Call him the dog whisperer. He's one of the top dog trainers in the world. He if you're listening you can you. Can you can pray for ben. He was in a car accident about a week ago. And his corvette fell off of five hundred foot incline right and he sent me pictures of his corvette and it was like smash downing literally god him like. He had to cut down his forehead. He broke all his ribs in his head like the wind was skull where you can see his skull and so he was the first person that he called and said. I need you to pray for me. I'm lucky to be alive right. And so i think one of the things i like about. Liz is that She loves life. She just loves people and as i said you heard her say like she's off the market now. So those of you listening. She's got a boyfriend now. And and i think you were single for a long time right. Aren't you single for a long time. Really like you weren't really. I mean you had some relationships in there but for you pretty single for awhile or is gonna say. Yeah but two or three years. Yeah so so. And that's i think that's another reason why she smiling. She's she's smiling because she's getting to and just think about what she said. She said that she gets to be mentored not just her coaching people. You know john maxwell program and john says if you're not learning from others and if you're the smarter you heard her say if you're the smartest person in the room go get around people that are smarter than you right. So what did she do. She's getting around somebody that's smarter and even know and this is what i think is awesome. She's a person of integrity so like she said. Hey but here's what she will be able to do. She will be able to take the information that she's learning from him and implemented in our life and life like by knowing the ins and outs of taking things better. Because i think liz i think sometimes people get to a place in their life where they're just okay with being okay and and i was okay with that like in the brick and mortar fitness business unit. Everybody's like what did you wanna make you make you make the top one percent of the industry. Don't you wanna make more money. Don't you want to influence more people. And sometimes i said no like no. I'm good like i have my time. I'm i'm not working sixty hours a week like you know that's all behind me and then god was like well. That's not what i there's and it's like my dad you know. I don't think there's any such thing as retirement. I think there's you know when. I read my bible every year from cover to cover nowhere. Do i see anything about retirement. In there. i see abou- giving and serving and giving serving and learning and growing right and my pastor. Did this message last year. Liz what you laugh. And then we'll finish with this as he talked about sitting in a recliner right and how people just when they get older they just sit in the recliner with the remote control. Right there's no learning there's no growing and really you're dying right and it's really funny. I've got my father. My father's live ten years eleven years longer than i thought he would. He'll be eighty one coming up and they thought he was going to die at seventy but he's in that mode now where he just loves his chair right and i think for me what i like most about you is is that you're constantly learning constantly growing and and and the value that you give the value that she gives in her facebook group like she takes people's and and just says hey. This looks like crap or this. Are you need to change that. I always i said to my administrative assistant in my operations guys like maybe you should go in with liz when she goes over our youtube channel. 'cause i don't she's my friend. I don't want to tell me tell. Tell me this sucks. Like and i'm just going to say it's his fault right so she gives a lot of and i'm just joking. She knows i'm just joking. But she gives a lot of value She's helped a lot of my friends like my coach. Israel is going to work with her. I'm just telling her that ahead of time. She probably won't know that until he does it. My my coach israel. I want to give them a plug. He's helped so many of my friends this year. And he's like hey. Are you going to give me that. Youtube course is still total. As i was like yes. I'm going to finish my affiliate thing. Tonight right. And i did that the night before last and so i gave it to like five people Yesterday i'm gonna put it on on some of our funnels and some of our website. I'm going to put it in our platform tomorrow. So i'm super excited. So why don't you faced with this. Why don't you send us off with some inspiration and then tell people where they can They can follow you where they can get to know you a little bit and hopefully maybe some of them work with you so finished with that my friend. So first and foremost you can find are probably the best place to go. If you're just getting started as youtube growth hacks dot com That has a five step channel setup process so even if your channels set up you want to go through and make sure that you're checking all those boxes. Most has a ninety. Eight percent of people said their channel of incorrectly. So that'd be a really great place to start and when you download that little guide you'll also get an email with a link to the facebook group that makes talking about So you can join us in their push. Your questions challenges connected me inside the face or group and then if you wanna learn more about my story you can go to list as video dot com or you head over to our company website at bids laments dot com awesome. Well liz thank you so much. You're such an inspiration. I i i think i said this before when we have kindred spirits with people i just think listen. I'll probably be friends forever. Just because i have a lot of respect for her. And i think she has a lot of respect for me and i'm excited for her. I feel like i. I wanna give value to liz now. So that's why. I'm excited to be in her program because she learns from everybody and i'm hoping that she'll learn some things for me because i've learned a lot from her already My administrative assistant. I went through her course twice now And so we're taking it step by step by step in implementing it so the only way people get to here. This is if you share it so if you're listening share this podcast download it. Sheriff go to liz's website get connected with her because this is why we do this. We do this so that we can give value in impact and influence right influence. He fluence did fluence right. So we can influence you to walk out the perfect will for you to to give. You can become the best version of yourself in every area life but of course in youtube so thanks for listening to another session of the heap loons podcasts. I say this all the time. Love god love people and live with passion and a vision that you finish the race strong know that god has a plan and a purpose for your life and so have an amazing day. God bless bye bye. Thank you for listening to the heat. Lewis podcast. We hope you enjoyed be sure to rate. Subscribe a five star review and as always you can follow michael on all social media platforms at michael david huey or www dot. Michael david hewitt dot com until next time. God bless and take care.
Two Years before the Mast (Ch. XVI), by Richard Henry Dana, Jr.
"Two years before the mast this liberal. Vox recording is in the public domain. Two years before the mast. By richard henry down a junior chapter sixteen liberty day onshore the next day being sunday after washington current decks and getting breakfast. The mate came forward with leave for one. Watch to go ashore on the rudy. We do lots and it fell to delivered which i was in instantly was preparation buckets of fresh water which we were allowed import. And so were put to use go ashore. Jackets and trousers got out in brushed pumps neckerchiefs in hats. Overhauled one lending to another so that among the whole each got a good fit out but what was called to pull the liberty men ashore and we sat down and the stern sheets as big as pay passengers and jumping ashore. Set out on our walk for the town which was nearly three miles off. It is a pity that some other arrangement is not made in merchant vessels with a guard the liberty day when import the cruiser kept at work all the week and the only day they are allowed for rest or pleasure is sunday and unless they go ashore on that day they cannot go at all. I have heard of a religious captain who gave his crew liberty on saturdays. After twelve o'clock this would be a good plan if ship masters you bring themselves to give their crews so much time for young sailors especially many of whom have been brought up with a regard for the sacredness of the day. This strong time to break. It is exceedingly injurious. It can hardly be expected that a crew on a long and hard foliage refuse a hours of freedom from toil and the restraints of a vessel and an opportunity to tread the ground and see the sights of society and humanity because it is a sunday they feel no objection to being drawn out of a pit on the sabbath day. I shall never forget the delightful sensation of being in the open. Air with the birds singing around me and escaped from confinement labor and strict rule of a vessel of being once more in my life the only for a day. My own master. A sailor's liberty is but for a day yet. While it lasts it is entire. He is under. No one's i in can do whatever and go wherever he pleases this day. For the first time. I made truly say in my whole life. I felt the mean of a term which i had often heard. The sweets of liberty. Stimpson was with me and turning our backs upon the vessel. We walked slowly along talking of the pleasure of being our own masters of the times past when we were free and in the midst of friends in america and the prospect of our return and planning where we would go and what we do when we reached home. How the prospect and how short intolerable. The voyage appeared when viewed in this new light. Thanks looks differently from what they did when we talk them. Over in the little dark folk soul the night after the flogging at san pedro his not the least of the advantages of allowing sailors occasionally a day of liberty that it gives them a spring and makes them feel cheerful and independent and laid them insensivity to look on the bright side of everything for some time after stimpson and i determined to keep as much together as possible though. We knew that it would not do to cut our shipmates for knowing our birth in education. They were a little suspicious that we would try to put on the gentlemen when we got ashore and would be ashamed of their company. And this won't do with jack when the voyages an end you do as you please. But so long as she belonged to the same vessel you must be linked to him on shore or he will not be a shipmate to you on board mean for warned of this before i went to see i took no long talks with me and being dressed like the rest in white duck trousers blue jacket and straw hat which would prevent my going into better company and showing no disposition to avoid them. I set all suspicion at rest. Our crew fell in with some who belong to the other vessels and sailor like steered for the first grog shop. This was a small adobe building of only one room in which we're liquors dry goods west india goods shoes bread fruits and everything which is visible in california. It was kept by yankee. A one eyed man who belonged formerly to fall river came out to the pacific and a well ship left hurt the sandwich islands and came to california and set up a poll period. Stimson an i followed in our shipmates. Wake knowing that to refuse to drink with them would be the highest affront but determining to slip away the first opportunity. It is universal custom with sailors for each one in his. Turn to treat the whole calling for glass all round and obliging is present. Even to the keeper of the shop to take a gloss with him. When i came in there was some dispute between our crew and the others were the newcomers or the old california rangers should treat i but it being settled in favor of the latter. Each of the crews of the other vessels treated all round in their turn. Endesa were good mini present including some loafers. Who had dropped in knowing what was going on to take advantage of hospitality and the liquor was a rail twelve and a half cents a glass. It made somewhat of a hole in their laughers. It was now our ships. Turn and stimpson i- desires to get away stepped up to call for glasses but we soon found than we must go in order. The oldest i for any old sailors did not choose to be preceded by a couple of youngsters and longer maury we had to wait our turn with twofold apprehension of being too late for our horses and get into much for drink. You must every time in if you drink with one and not with the other. It is always taken as an insult. Having it gone through our turns and acquitted ourselves of all obligations. We slipped out and went about among the houses endeavouring to find horses for the day so that we might ride around and see the country at first we had little success and all we could get out lazy fellows in reply to questions being eternal drawing king savvy who knows which is an answer to all questions after several efforts at length felon with a little sandwich island. Boy who belonged to captain wilson. I aku and was well acquainted in the place. He knowing where to go soon procured us to horses. Ready saddled and bridled each with alaso coiled over the pommel. These were to have all day with the privilege of writing them down to the beach at night for dollar which we had to pay an advance. Horses are the cheapest thing in california very fair ones not being worth more than ten dollars a piece and the poor being often sold for three and four taking days. Ride you pay for the use of the saddle and for the labor and trouble. Kitchen the horses. If you bring the saddleback safe they cared little becomes of the horse mounted on horses. Which were spirited beasts and which by the way in this country are always steered in the calvary fashion by pressing the contrary rain against the neck and not by point on the bit we started off on a fine run over the country. The first place we went to was the old ruinous presidio. Which stands on rising ground near the village which overlooks it is built in the form of an open square like all the other presidio and was in most ruinous state with the exception of one side. In which the common nut lived with his family there were only two guns none of which was spiked in the other head no carriage twelve half clothed and half starved looking fellows composed the garrison and they it was said had not a musket apiece. The small settlement lay directly below the fort composed of about forty dark brown looking huts or houses and three or four larger ones whitewashed which belong to the genthod arizona. This town is not more than half as largest monterey or santa barbara and has little or no business from the presidio rerun off in the direction of the mission which we were told was three miles distant. The country was rather sandy and there was nothing for miles which could be called a tree but the grass grew green in rank and there were many bushes and thickets and the soil is said to be good after pleasant. Ride of a couple miles. We saw the white walls of the mission and forty in a small stream came and before it. The mission is built of adobe and plastered. There is something decidedly striking in its appearance. A number of irregular buildings connected with one another in disposed in the form of a hollow square with a church at one end rising above the rest with a tower containing five belfries in each of which hung a large bell and with very large rusty. Aaron crosses at the tops just outside of the buildings and under the walls stood twenty or thirty small huts melt of straw and of the branches of trees group together in which a few indians lived under the protection and the service of the mission entering a gateway we drove into the open square in which the stillness of death reigned on one side with the church on another a range of high buildings with grated windows. A third was a range of smaller buildings offices and the fourth seemed to be little more than a high connecting wall. Not a living creature. Could we see. We wrote twice round the square. In the hope of waking up someone and one circuit saw a tall monk with shaven head sandals and the dress of the grey friars pass rapidly through the gallery disappeared without noticing us after two circuits. We stopped our horses and at last a man shot himself in front of one of the small buildings we wrote up to him and found him dressed in the common dress of the country with a silver chain around his neck. Supporting a large bunch of keys from this we took him to be the steward of the mission and addressing him as mayor received a low bow. An invitation to walk into his room making our horses fast. We went in. It was a plane room containing a couple three or four chairs a small picture or two of some saint or miracle or martyrdom and a few dishes and glasses. Hey guanaco day. Commander said i from my grammar season. Your said he key goes to use to mentioned you for holidays. Which i knew they must have if they had nothing else and beef and bread with a hint for wine if they had any he went off to another building across the court and returned in a few minutes with a couple of indian boys bearing dishes and into kanter of wine. The dishes contained baked meats for holy stood with peppers and onions broiled eggs and california flour baked into a kind of macaroni. These together with the wine made the most sumptuous meal. We'd eaten since we left boston. And compared with the fair we had lived upon for seven months. it was a real banquet after dispatching. It we took out some money and asked him how much we were to pay. He shook his head and crossed himself saying that it was charity that the lord gave it to us knowing the amount of this to be that he did not sell but was willing to receive a present we gave him ten or twelve rails. Which you pocketed. With admiral nonchalance saying. Do stay pug taking him. We rode out to the indians huts. The little children were running about among huts stark naked and the men were not much more but the women had generally course gowns. Sort of toe cloth. The minner employed most of the time intending the cattle of the mission and in working in the garden which is a very large one including several acres and filled. It said with the very best fruits of the climate language of these people which spoken by all the indians of california is the most prudish without any exception that i ever heard or the could well be conceived of it is a complete slaver. The words fall off. The ends of their tongues in a continual slobbering sound is made in the cheeks. Outside of the teeth. It cannot have been the language of montezuma an independent mexicans here among the huts. We saw the oldest man i had ever met with and indeed i never supposed person could retain life and exhibit such marks of age. He was sitting out in the sun leaning against the side of a hut in his legs and arms which were bare were of a dark red color. The skin withered shrunk up like burnt leather and limbs not larger round than those of a boy of five years. He had a few grey hairs which were tied together at the back of his head and he was so feeble when we came up to him he raised his hand slowly to his face and taking hold of a lives with his fingers. Lifted them up to look at us and being satisfied. Let them drop again. All command over the lid seem to have gone. I asked his age but could get no answer. But king savvy and they probably did not know it leaving the mission we return to the village going nearly all the way on a full run the california horses have no medium gate which is pleasant between walking and running four as there are no streets rains they have no need of the genteel trot and their rides usually keep them at the top of their speed until they are tired and then let them rest themselves by walking the fine air of the afternoon. The rapid gate of the animals who seemed almost fly over the ground and the excitement and novelty of the motion to us who had been so long. Could find on shipboard exhilarating beyond expression any foot willing to ride all day long coming into the village. We found things looking very lively. The indians who always have a holiday on sunday were engaged at playing kind of running game of ball on a level piece of ground near the houses. The old ones sat down in a ring looking on while the young ones men boys and girls were chasing the ball and throwing it with all their might. Some of the girls ran like greyhounds. At every accident or remarkable feat the old people set of a deafening screaming and clapping of hands. Several blue jackets revealing about houses. Which showed that the barrios had been well. Patronized one or two of the sailors had got on horseback but being rather indifferent horsemen and the mexicans having given them vicious beasts they were soon thrown much amusement of the people a half dozen sandwich islanders from the height houses in the to briggs bold riders. Were dashing about on the full gallop. Halloween in laughing like so many wild men. It was now nearly sundown and stimson in. I went into a house and sat quietly down to rest ourselves before going to the beach. Several people soon collect into see lost. Mary narrows in glasses and one of them. A young woman took a great fancy to my pocket handkerchief which was a large talk one that i had before going to see and a handsomer want than they had been in the habit of seeing. Of course. I gave it to her. Which brought me into high favour and we a president of some pears and other fruits which we took down to the beach with us. When we came to leave the house. We found that our forces which we had tied to the door or both gone we had paid for them to ride down to the beach but they were not to be found. We went to the man of whom we hired them but he only shrugged his shoulders and two are question. Where are the horses. Only answered kings bay but as he was very easy and made no inquiries for the saddles we saw. He knew very well where they were. After a little trouble determined not to mock to the beach a distance of three miles we procured to at four rails. More apiece with two indian boys to run behind and bring them back determined to have the go out of the horses for our trouble. We went down full speed and were on the beach in a few minutes wishing to make our limited last as long as possible rewrote up and down on the houses amusing ourselves with seen the men as they arrived. It was now dusk some on horseback and others on foot the sandwich islanders road down and were in high snuff. We enquired for shipmates. And we're told the two of them had started on horseback and been thrown or had fallen off and were seen heading for the beach but steering pretty wild and by the looks of things would not be down much before midnight. The indian boys having arrived we give them our horses and having seen them safely off held for a boat and went toward us ended our first liberty day on shore tired but had a good time. And we're more willing to go back to old duties about midnight. We were woke up by our to watch mates who had come aboard in high dispute. It seems that they had started to come down on the same horse. Double backed n each accusing the other. Being the cause of his fall they soon however turned in and fell asleep and probably forgot about it for the next morning. The dispute was not renewed in chapter sixteen.
Richard Ponzio, Director of the Just Security 2020 Program at the Stimson Center
"Welcome to common home. Conversations beyond u. n. seventy five a series by the planetary podcast in common home conversations. You will hear from leading global economics. The proposal of recognizing the existence of an intangible global common without borders can change our relationship with our planet. The common home of humanity has proposed an ambitious new global pack for the environment the adverse effects of climate change span across borders and beyond territories recognizing the earth system as a common heritage of humankind is the first step in restoring stable climate of visible manifestation of a well-functioning or this proposals cascading effects would be systemic and tremendously impact international relations and economics opening the doors to restoring a well-functioning earth system common home conversations is the place to discuss a new social contract between society economy and the earth system. Now here's your host founder and ceo of the planetary. Press kimberly white. Hello and welcome to common home conversations. Today we are joined by richard ponzi. Out director of the justice Twenty twenty program in a senior fellow at the simpson center previously. Richard directed the global governance program at the hague institute for global justice where he served as director for the albert gambari commission on global security justice in governance. Thank you for joining us today. Richard thank you kimberly. Can you tell us more about your role at stimson and what you're currently working on. I am the senior fellow and director of the just security twenty twenty program a program focused on you and brought her global governance innovation strengthening making the international system more inclusive voices of society of course but non-state actors working with governments and of course international organizations like the united nations to address the twenty first century challenges on climate change to rising violence many parts of the world. To of course the pandemic on everybody's mind today mary interesting so speaking of the pandemic. We're currently going through a global health crisis. A climate crisis antibiotic versity crisis. Can these become the common ground that we need to find new multilateral solutions such as the global pact with the environment to our shared problems if these issues don't i don't know what will in terms of retaking our our multilateral system how the hundred ninety three member states come together but as i said in my introduction. We're looking very much at solutions but also capabilities ideas networks. Coming from non state actors global civil society is a terminology often used in this context but needs a lot of things social media social movements actually and religious organizations to academics. Think tanks like the institution. I'm a part of but all the way down to the grassroots and community level organizing at the same time either part of civil society or working in its own right the private sector the business community incredibly rich with talent technical engineer the financial resources of course but we look to them for for leadership as well working with governments and international organizations which resume. We'll be talking a bit about because that's what my own research. Scholarly work has focused on for years and these two are three intertwined crisis that you mentioned the climate crisis by diversity and of course The health crisis really prominently featured in in the covid. Nineteen pandemic that we're all experiencing you know. Never has there been such a mall of forces that have forced the international community to rethink how we are organizing ourselves. How are looking at these issues through global fora such as the united nations. The world bank is very much on the front of these issues major informal groupings estate such as the g twenty. They all have a contribution to make but i think as a starting point referred to the global pack for the environment. I think it's critical that a global pact. It's early days of being a disgusted. Negotiated negotiate it really makes the point that hey we have all of these international agreements out there. There's principles associated with many of them. What are some of the common threads common foundational principles between the major conventions on climate change by diversity but again hundreds of other agreements that deal with the global environment. I think if we have more coherence and a a sense of vision and a road through this new instrument global pack for the environment. This will really. I think build on the solidarity that we're seeing worldwide as a result of the global pandemic and we then channel the sense of a common global identity global citizenship to then work on common global problem solving and that's at the heart again of what the global packer the environment and its particular concerns with issues such as the by diversity in climate crisis. I think they're just critical and as we see today. Health issues are intimately related to environmental concerns and It's so important that we then look in an interdisciplinary fashion to addressing these problems simultaneously. And it's gonna require a rethink both of our institutional framework and instruments that take our normative framework from previous years and upgrade them. And that's in a sense what the global pact for the environment is all about so essentially at this point we need all hands on deck. Absolutely one hundred percent. And that's why it's great to see whether it's the annual meetings of the framework convention on climate change at all the work that's gone into the massive twenty thirty agenda for sustainable development using technologies to have online consultations. It's really pushed the frontiers on how inclusive these un of policy making processes can be in. The same thing needs to happen now for the global pack for the environment. The ideas cannot come from within small. Un secretariat or with in the private sector alone. It's really gotta be voices from different parts of humanity absolutely as an expert in politics governance and international relations. What do you see as the biggest challenges of stabbing this global pack for the environment biggest challenge is not understanding and diagnosing the problem related to host of environmental challenges not just climate the big one or if we let science guide us. We're going to get vaccine as we've been seeing in recent weeks in fighting the pandemic we even. I think have a lot of tools in the toolbox for conflict resolution and pushing back against violent extremism at the heart of all these issues. You mentioned my background and issues of governance and politics especially at the global level. It's it's the fear that we are eroding ripping apart very foundations of the international system of governance that was created in the aftermath of a major cataclysmic world. War second world war in the early nineteen forties and so this past year has been monumental not just because of the pandemic but the seventy fifth anniversary chance to review and reflect on the un system. But what we're seeing at the same time is rising nationalism and exclusive form of nationalism. That really works against the core principles spirit of global cooperation on any issue including the environmental themes. That will be talking about today. And unless we realized how corrosive how negative dante it is to these institutions their basic functioning the signals that members of the secretariat starting with the secretary general of the united nations. Get when they hear a lack of cooperation. You've heard a term called vaccine. Nationalism are is even with the hope that is provided by solving the pandemic. Now there's going to be questions about who which countries and who within. Those countries will get access to the vaccine. I there needs to be a treatment of an issue of such critical magnitude at the global level like vaccine to help us restore normalcy in societies. We're going to get anything to the economic dimensions. The knock on effects including the environmental effects from the pandemic crisis. But first things first. The health crisis needs a level of global cooperation. That first of all the world health organization is been crippled in politicized and has a lot to do with rise of a combination of even democratic countries that are building artificial wall so to speak sometimes literal laws in their country to protect them from Spillover effects and it's just a quite short sighted to believe that whether it's the pandemic these environmental themes will be exploring today a whole host of global security questions that you can isolate yourself in this world but many countries believe i mean populist leaders are whipping up fear and whipping up a confusion about the role of global institutions and until we get a basic understanding of why these institutions were created. And why they in fact do need to be upgraded modernized made even more inclusive certainly adopting principles of sustainability injustice at their core only can they function effectively and then deliver global public goods and address global public bads that countries are understandably afraid of so. It's absolutely critical. And i hope we can get some of the specific ways. Those changes could occur in the not so distant future. It's not like these are long term Don quixote plans that will take hundreds of years to implement. We have ideas under now in connection with the global pack for the environment that can lead to rather ambitious changes even in the next three to five years and they're going to be critical for addressing the biggest challenges of the present era and one of the biggest challenges. This climate change climate change is creating cascading detrimental effects on our societies such as inequality migration complex health issues security issues in international relations not to mention the impacts on our economies yet. We're only talking about climate change as an isolated problem of carbon dioxide emissions. How can we get past treating these challenges as separate issues. Each of the issues are important in their own right and could be unpacked in part of an entire discussion. But it's so important that climate not be looked at just in terms of co two emissions not be Think that there's an easy technical fix although some talk about the geo engineering and shooting sulfates into the atmosphere. And that's going to somehow cool cool the earth often. It's it's interesting to explore a whole host of technological Fixes especially related to green technologies. Things we can use in our everyday lives in rethink. How industry is doing green infrastructure. Especially as it again connected to you mentioned the issues in the pandemic. We have this huge opportunity as we recover economically but also to invest in the type of infrastructure that was not the case of a decade ago when the world faced another monumental financial crisis in took several years to dig out and there are statistics being tossed around that we spent for every six dollars of infrastructure stimulus investments. Back in two thousand nine two thousand ten eleven only one dollar could be considered green infrastructure such as retrofitting your buildings of course Public transportation and even electrical grids done in a different way that are more energy efficient and would reduce emissions says. So that's on the economic side. There's a huge body of organ. That's where we came up with sustainable development through gro. Harlan brutland world commission on environment development. Back in one thousand nine hundred seven leading to the earth summit leading to the framework convention on climate change. But we're the debate is today in a lot being discussed about the connection between environment and security issues two or three years ago. There was a Marrakesh the world summit on migration issues and certainly the environmental and climate dimensions of that set of issues was always unpack. So we absolutely in an interdisciplinary. Fashion need to understand. The only way we're gonna deal with easily. The biggest challenge of our time. Climate change on off is far more complex dangerous ominous set of issues linked to it than the pandemic which we're going to get a handle on think sooner than later but hopefully we can learn the right lessons of how the international communities organize and how we trip away at project as big complex and multi dimensional as as climate change in that means looking at the economic dimensions the health dimensions the security even issues of migration and refugees We think that they're all being driven by things like conflict or economic needs. That's true but the overwhelming evidence is showing that climate change is now but in the future will also be the major push factor of refugee movements even migration to countries that are maybe suffering less so the whole debate around learning to live with climate change in the short term and adapting. But we need to be still having these discussions hand in hand with a mitigation debates really slowing the pace of climate change otherwise of the world in many parts of the world become uninhabitable So that's why going back to the basics and what the global pack for the environment represents in terms of core principles a guiding vision and and understanding the need for a multidimensional approach moving beyond just a focus on co two emissions. That's absolutely critical. If we're going to get a a strong handle on this fundamental challenge of our time climate change. I would love to get your thoughts on the calls for a green recovery. We're starting to see them all across the world d. You think we're beginning to see a shift towards governments recognizing. These issues are tied together. They're not separate and we cannot work on them in silo. This is the big question on. All of our minds will see the evidence even within. I'd say twelve months. How much people put their money. Investments in real effort where their mouth is on talking about a green recovery before the green cover. We had the us green new deal set of proposals at least for one of the two political parties But many other countries in the eu as a whole career many countries have picked up the the nomenclature. and now they're combining that with Another common phrase linked to the pandemic build back better. We hear it in the united states context. But it's actually been picked up integrated into the recent declaration for the seventy fifth anniversary of the united nations so signed on one hundred ninety three member states in their world leaders who met of course virtually but did so in the last few weeks at the annual high level segment of the general assembly and not only are they saying we need to build back better. They're focused on of course getting their economies going in jobs but n greener so green recovery. This creates such a fortuitous situation because a year ago at the un climate summit the previous the un general assembly high level segment in new york. September two thousand nineteen. It was well known that we are off pace and starting with the biggest countries biggest submitters the biggest economies those associated with the twenty or in particular falling behind on their own nationally determined commitments. You know some of the questions. We need to ask ourselves as the voluntary approach which is at the heart of the paris. Climate agreement whites different than a kyoto protocol. Enforceable international legal instrument You know everybody says this. Revolutionary new model global governance is going to be the future. Because it's it's about in results. Impact that matter more and i agree if it's delivering results than we should all be percent behind the paris climate agreement but when the biggest countries are not even following their own adopted commitments in part because of questions of enforcement and verification and what are the consequences the penalties when when they don't follow through Of course the us did pull itself out Made the initial step towards pulling out in two thousand seventeen and it just happened to days after the. Us election we fully expect on the first day of the the new biden administration for the us to resign in recommitted itself but back to your question on green recovery. It has so many meetings in dimensions to it. But this is you know The fundamental opportunity to wean ourselves off fossil producing engines of our economy too. You know all kinds of green infrastructure investments as i noted sponsor the previous question to government action incentives Really tori environment to really incentivize the private sector to be become the chief engine for the green technologies which i think are going to be at the heart of a green recovery but yet it's not going to be done by any one country it's not going to be done by government or the private sector. It's going to be a combination of these actors. And of course we're going to have partners in ideas coming out of a civil society think tanks universities that are gonna be central to not only pushing the debate in terms of what green recovery could mean and be realized in a practical sense. But they're also going to be the watchdogs and they're going to be the ones analyzing and showing. Hey you use all this wonderful rhetoric about moving towards renewables. Green remember getting the paris agreement action plan on course but the reality is and actually expect some good analysis to come even within the first six months of twenty twenty one. Well i'm looking forward to seeing how everything plays out for sure. I'm excited to see all these new commitments and the time for action is now so hopefully we start to see that happen so moving onto my next question. The tensions resulting from our global interdependence confront us with the need to redefine the global comments. Do you agree that we need a new legal and political theory based on the carman's to make it possible to explain and harmonize these tensions global commons. It's been around. I believe if. I'm not mistaken. It's the law of the sea. Treaty debated throughout the nineteen seventies. A street sign in nineteen. Eighty two today Not all countries are hearing to are even fully ratified members but the terminology continues in. Its at the heart of the recognition that we have interdependence among first inform foremost states as the major actor in global governance today and how issues are being addressed but for redefining the global comments today getting into a instrument like the global pact for the environment but i think having non-state actors having corporations various gone even just the multinational but small and medium size enterprises at the national level those even operating at the local of some degree of appreciation understanding of this concept of global commons. I think introducing it than in an instrument like the global package environment absolutely will have all kinds of legal and political implications and maybe in a practical sense it will be then translated in ways that people can connect local thinking and certainly local action to the notion of global commons which needs to translate of course in to global action in terms of bar. Mental issues sustainability The linkages with all of the issues. We noted earlier today. The health crisis that we're facing the present moment issues of peace and security at that that you know everybody thinks it's conflicts that are driving refugee movements migration today. It's very much environmental factors that are also at the forefront and and of course they can lead to a circle where these issues are all interdependent just as countries is consequently countries are interdependent because the issues that consume their Nations populace consumed. Political leaders are all issues that have a often certainly regional many times global dimension and until You know we start to refine concepts such as global comments or not going to. I think be able to upgrade our political institutions and regional global levels to be more effective on a essentially collective action problem solving so these are absolutely fundamental steps that will have a strong basis in legal and political theory if You know they're both to be understood first and foremost by scholars academics who care about legal and political theory but then translated into practical tools and applications and things that will affect everyday people's lives will be front and center in how political leaders look at these issues I think we're talking about something that will take time but it will be nothing less than a transformation in how we and then the types of club recommendations we put forward for addressing fundamental challenges such as the climate crisis biodiversity loss and even in the near term issues of great concern related to recovery from the pandemic a very much needed transformation so we talked a lot about the crises facing our global community. Today how would the framework proposed by the common of humanity. Help us to tackle these challenges. I think it is designed as a community of great thinkers from across different disciplines. Who really are starting to see that. Working in their individual silos in specific areas of expertise has great limitations and to combined the intellectual power of this community to policy making processes beginning with the global pack for the environment. It's just fortuitous that There was initiative within certain countries. And i believe Countries such as portugal. Where the secretary general's from playing a leading role in advancing the notion of the pack for the global environment. It's absolutely critical that these ideas are not kept in a parallel Divorced channel that. I it is not engaging governments and senior international civil servants working on these same issues. We need to bridge the gap mary. These two communities and ensure that the common humphry humanity to realize its full potential is at the forefront of of shaping at this particular instrument the global pact the environment in the near term and then they'll be considerable amount of work after its adoption. Many of us hope that the historic fiftieth anniversary of the stockholm conference on the human environment. Coming up in twenty twenty two one would hope The swedish government champion on many of these issues will be hosting a meeting in its capital stockholm to celebrate but more importantly talk about the next phase in on the agenda. That was started. Way back in. Nineteen seventy two in stockholm so a natural follow on and new generation of action could follow from not only what we've been discussing in terms of the upgrade in central importance of taking the paris climate agreement to the next level but i would say parallel track but inter setting in. Many ways will be this instrument the global pact for the environment which then touches upon the other major conventions starting with biodiversity action plans on desertification. All kinds of other pollution related issues. We need to look holistically at a whole range of environmental concerns not just saved on the climate crisis alone We can't solve one without the other. And then the same thing can be said of getting beyond the environmental challenges and dealing with of course the governance framework and how the u. n. And governments are consumed with many other challenges on a daily basis besides climate or or host of other environmental concerns. And we need to be cognizant of that but make the case that the security challenges of the future the human rights agenda which is front and center of what the united nations is all about continuing to reduce extreme poverty especially in light of the pandemic which has led to huge economic dislocation and of ending the substance of millions if not billions of people worldwide in informal economies in the regulated economies of the world. Day absolutely need to government leaders decision especially in policy bodies such as the nation need to see the connections. Because this is what's gonna consume Governments and leaders diplomats for the coming years dealing with these fundamental day. Today survival challenges. And just like if you're in the middle of something of the scalable of world war you're gonna just focus on that and dressing that and everything else put to the wayside. No we need to be able to focus on climate and other environmental concerns. The pace of biodiversity loss is just staggering. And it's going to have untold consequences so the way to address. Those is again gagging back to first principles things like the global for the environment can contribute significantly and really rethink than how we won our international institutions and the governments that are part of that to to behave into act into deliver on the crucial challenges of our time they need to look in an interdisciplinary way across the whole set of environmental concerns but then the connections as i noted with other major baskets of issues in the security economic human rights. Even cultural domain. They all have an effect on whether or not we succeed in combating the climate crisis arguably the biggest challenge of the u. n. a. seen since its creation in nineteen forty five legal framework proposed by the common of can really help create a system of accountancy to support agreements like the paris agreement. A global deal for nature and much more. As you mentioned earlier. I think it gets to the heart of what i feel is missing. I subscribe to arguments that. The founders of the united nations had in nineteen forty five when they were trying to build a system that responded to the second world war but really the failure of international governance in the form of the league of nations which was of course created in the immediate aftermath of another world war the great war nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen in the they really made everything based on consensus of all the member states that time of course dominated by colonial powers but the reality is created paralysis and nothing could get done if everybody had veto and so it's definitely criticized today the security council with the dominance of the permanent five powers of russia china the united states the united kingdom and france questions about whether or not there deserve to have not only the permanent seat on the security council which is again the only body that allows for binding enforceable international law through its decisions about the use of veto power that compromise absolutely fundamental to create the un back in nineteen forty five so there are some important lessons we have to balance pragmatic realpolitik with a more progressive notions of how international governance should be organized by plying that to the climate crisis environmental crisis. I know that there's incredible thinking and innovation in the paris climate agreement on not at all wishing to denigrate the progress in do celebrate the achievement that it represented back in thousand fifteen but the jury is still very much out whether or not governments will ratchet up their commitments as expected and most importantly the verification procedures. Talk that it that it itself would be enforceable somehow someway overtime what gets to the heart of how we empower our international governance system. And there's nothing akin to what i was discussing. On in the security council domain able to as an international community take action collectively to enforce binding international laws. There's no parallel now to the biggest challenge of our time the climate crisis so while we're not gonna create a global climate Security council in just a few major countries dominated. That's not what we're proposing but we need to see what was thinking even from seventy five years ago or even more recent times the conventions on political civil cultural economic social rights of the nineteen seventies. There's lessons in in recent years. The law the see treaty that the type of tribunal that they set up for dispute settlement mechanism. There probably are some really strong arguments that we need similar types of institutional innovations but first things first we need to get common principles to be revisited updating global commons notion and really begin to take forward this notion of the common concern of humankind in making sure that it's legal status is upgraded And that's where initiatives like the common home for humanity can really make a significant and timely contribution excellent. Thank you richard before we go. Is there anything else. You would like to share with our audience. Yes i'll conclude by saying alongside the opportunity presented by the fifty th anniversary of the stockholm conference on the human environment. So that would be in twenty twenty. Two were hoping that an outcome of the seventy fifth anniversary of the united nations. When i say we might research program stimpson's think-tank of course working with many other partners in civil society that together. I campaign Un twenty twenty. All of which are familiar with an and supportive of what the common home for humanity is all about. These groups are going to get behind a very important report of the secretary general at was mandated by member states this past september and it is on the follow through to the twelve commitments at the heart of the sony. Five declaration protecting mother. Earth is the second major commitment shoring. No country no. No people are left behind things the exact formulation but is the first commitment. That's not only speaking to the pandemic and recovery but how the twenty thirty agenda for sustainable development in the paris agreement are critical to recovery to the issues that we discussed today beginning with the climate and biodiversity crisis so the opportunity presented by this initiative. Something that i hope your listeners will follow closely. The report of the secretary general is expected to be out by september and many of us are already hoping that a more ambitious more serious inner governmental process than what the un seventy five declaration. It was very important first. Step was catalytic in it was during very difficult times of a rising nationalism and not to mention the pandemic so we applaud what was achieved. We were pleased to be a part of that process. But we believe it needs to kick off a much more a serious intergovernmental multistakeholder process of global governance innovation. And we'll see what form it takes. And how long will we needed. Certainly before the eightieth anniversary of the united nations in twenty twenty five we would like to see some significant changes which over time could be labeled transformative but first things first Many of these institutional machinery changes of the international system and not just the un but the linkages to the g twenty world trade organization the bretton woods institutions. It's absolutely fundamental that. We look at the system as a whole and Perhaps alongside the work on the global package environment and the stockholm plus fifty review conference. We might be seeing a parallel institutional change process coming off of the secretary. General's mandated u. n. Seventy-five follow through report. So keep your eye on that process and and try to get involved in a no that We could be turning the corner to creating institutions that are fundamental for today's twenty-first-century challenges Rather than you know. A twentieth century structure global governance which is very much about a diplomats in states running the show i think the new model global governance a multistakeholder one Something that leaving at the heart of the common hope for humanity project. It's absolutely critical. We are long overdue and needing this kind of important changes to create a more inclusive system of global governance that really delivers results for all people And especially the most vulnerable. Alright and there you have it globally. We're going through. Climate emergency devastating biodiversity loss. Anna health crisis. Evidence shows us. How interconnected these issues are showcasing. The need for global solidarity in action to solve shared challenges the global pact for the environment can be the necessary instrument that leads to ambitious changes critical to addressing our planet's greatest challenges that is offered today and thank you for joining us for this episode of common home conversations. Beyond you and seventy five please subscribe share and be sure to tune in next week to continue the conversation with our special guests klaus muscleman director of the new zealand centre for environmental law at the university of auckland and visit us at. Www dot planetary press dot com for more episodes in the latest news in sustainability climate change and the environment.
FFR 109: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker
"Hey Folks Caroline here with a quick note and apology. You're going to notice that my audio in the episode you're about to hear isn't quite up to our usual high standards for audio quality. That's because I goofed. During a recent podcast recording session with Ebony and Nita I just had my microphone turned off the entire the time and so we had to use backup audio for me So my sincere apologies. Thank you for understanding and thanks for. You're listening hey friends caroline here. If you enjoy listening in on our conversations each week about what's happening in the world of media and pop culture and how that impacts our larger archer culture please head on over to Patriot dot com slash fem freak and help us keep bringing. FFR To you. It feels like such a failure on the part of the people. People who own the franchise in the studio and Kathy and all of them to not have a larger vision of like this is raise arc and like the directors that they choose to film them I and to bring them to life and to write them. All of that need to at least go by these beats welcome to feminist frequency radio. It's twenty twenty and everything sucks already. Okay but we're back ACA which is not sake. It's great and we're here to share a feminist heartaches pop culture which is what you've been waiting weeks for this is the show that asks you to be critical of the media. You love. I'm Anita Sarkisian and I'm joined today by two members of the rebellion get enough screen time. Caroline I'm very big in the expanded. The Universe Evil One conovy. Hey die protecting all the little. Jed Eye princelings This week we'll be hyperspace skipping around the latest cinematic entry in the star wars franchise stay tuned to what we thought about the day new mum of rate the thin and Po and Kylo story and whether the distinct lack of baby yoga was a problem. I'm GonNa say it was just. Yeah that's not even a question I can't we can't he's that because that would just everybody's thinking it yeah All right BOOP boop boop loop they are we getting new theme music for the Twenty Twenty. Do you know hard. It was for us to get the music to begin with. Yeah Okay so I feel like twenty like seventies game show music and no one would now except for the machines are algorithm machines. Skynet China okay. Cool yeah I mean you know Google Sky now. What's the difference? Yeah Hi friends I was just telling ebbing caroline that I think I've forgotten how to podcast sane and because every just appeared on. Don't normally we podcast separately. You you know and rob puts everything together via dark magic. What if it's force magic whatever? It's forbidden magic anyway. This time I just showed up at Anita's doorstep like real didn't tell her I was coming. I just assumed she would now be we share. That never goes wrong anyways. Don't do that to your friends. Never never ever showed to their place letting them know that this it really is the more I wake up more. I realize I should have been my old by the way I'll be in our no. I mean it's totally fine. It's just the setup is different and so she just appeared and I thought she was my neighbor like doing laundry or something and then I was like. Oh It's you the. She was very happy after the first second surprise after the lob surprise and then another episode Hall Coming Up Next Week Bowl Shit on bullshit but I was expecting caroline to be behind you in. That didn't happen. So work on your magic's be the stereotype. Ebony I'll tell you what I would you know the the girls who didn't ascend who turned eels. We'll talk about next week. Definitely definitely definitely would have been turned into a glowing. Were I would not have graduated. That's an Easter Egg. In case people are not clear what we're talking we at least in our listeners are all a bunch of everybody's watching the witcher all right Carolina would you like to have intro banter before we move onto. I I think now all right twenty nine hundred nine th star wars. The rise of skywalker wraps up the story begun for years ago so in the force awakens. This latest film walks back some of the key developments of the middle film in the trilogy. The last I but director Rian Johnson is too busy basking accolades relates for knives out to give a shit. The rises skywalker has been over a few weeks now. So we'll venture deep into spoiler territory for this episode so listeners. Beware if you don't I want to know whether Finn and Po ever pledged their attornal devotion to each other if you don't want to know whether ray ever finds out who her parents are if you simply do not want to know whether to random women kissing in the background of a crowd shot counts as LGBT representation. Then turn off the pod now but actually don't because this is going to be good all right so this is a movie that happened a little a little synopsis here. Did you actually write this or did you pay sale from an you did not deserve an opposite quotes from something When it's discovered that the evil Emperor Palo Pin Pal Palestine hopping rails right or or so tired shame Albertine how this crazed and keep all that in? Because I don't give a fuck. I never watch the PREQUELS PALATINE teen. I'm just is GonNa do something really quick for listening to this old weird dude. Didn't die at the hands of Darth vader. The rebels rebels must race against the clock to find out his whereabouts fin. IMPO lead the resistance to put a stop to the first orders plans to form a new empire which apparently is called the final order. Because that's very creative. Well Ray anticipates her inevitable confrontation with Kylo Ren okay who wants to steal. UH-HUH I think Carol should start. I think she'll set the tone well. I'm fascinated and dismayed but also fascinated by the way that at these films have clearly become They've taken on the weight of like larger statements in our culture about what it is that we even want from our stories and I think we see that really clearly in extremely heated and very political. When you get right down to it arguments you can say about say the last Jedi vs this film the rise of of Skywalker because you know the last Jedi was one kind of statement President And this is not the same. That was a good or not a good film but it's it's ideology was very clearly in a particular place it was saying saying like You know Throw away the past. Kill it if you have to. It was saying like old lightsabres dynasties in legacies in all these things aren't shouldn't be what really matters. And then the rise of Scott Walker is very much a statement that says no fuck you actually. All of that stuff is his exactly what matters and we should keep looking to the past and we should keep kind of Bringing things full circle rather than breaking king those circles and so you know it's just like I'm a philosophical an ideological level. I'm just so fundamentally and deeply oppose is to everything that this movie kind of stands for rate. Everything does the way that it makes. You takes Ray from being the child of. Nobody's who still is like tremendously important in you. Know in in in shaping what happens to being like no no no. She's totally. Actually part of these legacies needs dynasties. She's a palpitation. So that's why she gets her her Howard from I mean especially like when you consider the final image of last year I was this I think. Really evocative and powerful image of You know I think he's been colloquially referred to. There's like broom kid. You know this poor kid on this planet of excess and wealth using the using the forest like that was the final title. Ix Fair and really the final image of this film is is is for me the biggest problem with it And so Andrew. I'm going to go. I'm just a little bit longer. Andrew tied in slash film wrote a piece. That I think is is right on. The nose is really really important. so for me in a lot of other people like what's been always most interesting about ray has been for loneliness in the wake of films You know talk about her loneliness and and So this film ends with Ray in the desert alone and so Andrew Todd his last film wrote for anyone who struggle rebel of isolation or loneliness is ending his absolutely crushing. It tells those people no matter what they do they always be alone At their closest companions will die into Ben's Absence of personal can make connected most intimately will be straight up forgotten it confirms deep terrible years Final images a lot in this final images damaging and hurtful may all really because raised passed over in favor of granting another bit of star. Wars ICONOGRAPHY You know you're you're told that In in altamonte cinematic statement tells you you'll just have ended up on any way in another desert surrounded. I go like that to me was right on. I hated everything about about this film but most of all the ending felt like a huge betrayal and it felt like. Jj only did it because he was more concerned with bringing things full circle with like the beginning of Luke's journey in a new hope than he was breaking out of that circle and actually giving ray and this film ending that it that it should have yet to pull this out a little bit I think it's very clear that they did not that. The studio did not have plan for the trilogy- right that it it was at the whim of the directors and then ultimately it became some kind of pissing contest between Ryan Johnson and J.J. Abrams in terms of their political perspectives. On where they wanted the story ago. And that's why everyone is talking about like. Jj changed everything from like took away. Everything from Ryan Johnson. What he his vision and for for the film? So that's why it's so partly why it's so jarring is the individuals got to make choices about what star wars should be and what direction it should go and like you know regardless of what you agree with. Their don't agree with an either of them. I'm like it feels like such a failure. On the part of the people who own the franchise in the studio and Catholic half like Kathy and all of them to not have a larger vision of like this is raise arc and like the directors that they choose to to film them and to bring them to life life and to write them and all of that need to at least go by these beats right and so and so in a time Blake. I'm glad you brought up the politics of this caroline because in a time where like media is so politicized it's such a battleground ground right in in a way that is kind of kind of silly but also kind of serious at the same time like it feels like such a failure to address or acknowledge or realize that. That's what's going to happen here right and it makes of watching. The film was interesting because I couldn't Not Bring the baggage of the odds of the larger conversations into this cinema with me. In so for instance. Thanks very early on you. Have this situation. Where Ho Damran is being like super reckless as a fly boy hotshot pilot and hyperspace skipping around to like escape from some For people our final I don't remember but he's hyperspace skipping around and like the study I forget who but somebody says like will lay a wooden approve of this and return while. Yeah but she's not here she and immediately I'm like it. Did they write that. Like specifically to wink to the fan boys who hated the last Jedi for supposed- and I'm putting massive air floats around this like feminism having Po kind of Take you you know taken down a notch by people like Layla and Admiral Holgado and like now now. He can like rebel in being reckless hotshot. flyway again and and so those people who who read into that some you know s j w bullshit feel vindicated and like but yeah fuck. Yeah that's right. Oh yeah you are a reckless fighter pilot. What makes you cool like I couldn't I am? That sort of thing was happening constantly. The movies like I can't just watch this as is a film about these characters in this university more like because I'm aware of it and it has these larger dimensions for so many people so many other people I'm constantly thinking. Well how are the. How are the worst viewers going to interpret this basically and it's hard like they like in many ways it it? It deliberately wants the worst viewers out there to feel like they're being listened to cater to the internal inconsistency of of what you're talking about is is such a huge part of the problem right like Po- po- committed mass treason in the last movie. And all listen. I didn't. He's the next in line and everyone is forgiven. Him and everything is fine like that feels awkward to me. Paul you mean world where Kylo Ren as the world's quickest redemption Ark. Yes but also like you know in addition to all of the other things. I think that that's I'm just like wait a minute weren't we met wasn't he like why is he. The next in line is because everybody fucking died and there's nobody else like that seems a little a little i. I don't know it didn't seem right to me. And also like let's let's get into the whole like jj literally created a character to show that Poe is is straight like she zoe. Bliss is the bounty hunter. Or whatever she is on the on the planet that they go to on their Goddamn macguffin quest or whatever they're doing and she was like she's in the movie for all of five minutes and she's played by Keri Russell which also like. Why did you agree to do this? Role that is is totally useless and her entire existence is to show that is not gay and like it was extraordinarily frustrating Australia because PLO and Oscar. Isaac Outright said that he played the character in the last two movies as Queer. Like as someone who is attracted defin- interested in thin and so that was so intentional. There's no way it wasn't on like deeply purpose. Jj loves you know tying up you know tying things up in a bow to some degree I think and he ended up with thin. Yeah Yeah Yeah I mean that. Let's that was never. I mean it should is that that should have happened and also it never would have happened because Disney. Even if I don't know I just think Disney also allow but like yeah like land line with us live in the in the in the hint of if the inference of it rather than like denying it outright and I think it's made even worse by the fact that there's a lesbian kiss for two the seconds at the very end like what the fuck at lake the. Here's your bone except that it's exactly that I read like a line. I read in a piece I thought summed up so perfectly you know it went something like I'll find us so we can get in the show notes on my win. You know moments like that. It's is not Disney Acknowledging you or it's not Disney like celebrating. Its didn't biting you right. It's like they. They're giving you the absolute bare minimum In a in a self congratulatory way and scarves with the problems for me with this film are are so much bigger than that. It's also also just a film that has no in mind you sense of of of stakes if anything at stake because it's constantly faking you out to learn its moments yet mall at all. There's fake you know early on a a major character is thoughts dead we learn. No He's not dead and then it might be much much worse is the way that Okay in typical star wars fashion. A planet gets blown out but then it doesn't. It's not it doesn't matter at all because the only two characters that we know entire about from planet we find out you know shortly thereafter like. Oh they're fine. They made it so they're getting blown up like Oh. Yeah as long as long as cute little baboo frick is is alive. Like that's the important thing I mean. He was kind of great to talk to her. Look there's no eight nine. They Star Wars Laboratory. Concoct you know cute little creatures but also fun fact I. I'm assuming people know this but the a new little droid. do or zero or whatever. Do House dl spelt. But Dio is voiced by I. Jj Guy Not know that today. Here's the time for me to once again. Prove that I'm bringing I'm back on my bullshit in two thousand twenty. I saw this foam. I don't know the weekend. It came out. So what does that like two weeks ago. Three weeks ago I have practically no memory of it even with notes that that's how much of an impression this film made on me. I remember after it was over thinking it wasn't horrible. It wasn't good good but I enjoyed it in the way that if you just let yourself go for two hours in a movie theater just the experience of watching I mean it's my Kryptonite right like if you show me giant spaceships against the backdrop of space. There's a part of me like the Lizard Brain. Ebony that's GonNa love it but I think it's telling. I saw this movie with my boyfriend and like twenty minutes in. He leaned over to me. And he's like did I miss a movie. What the fuck is happening? This film was trying to do so much. And I'M GONNA attempt not to lapse into the thing I normally do which is pointing out like ludicrous plot holes or logistical missteps. Like the whole planet of exile and the Star destroyer flotilla in the atmosphere. Just about how this movie made me feel. which is that? The one of the few things I am left with is my profound disappointment about how thin was wasted and rows and rows Absolutely but for reasons that are. I'm sure obvious What happened with van or rather does not happen within really hits me I really liked the force awakens? I have seen it multiple multiple times and I just thought there's something about the kind of like rip roaring it. You know throwback kind of Space Opera Space Western that this is and yes. I recognize that it is in many ways directly aping a new hope. Whatever I loved it right and I remember thinking like Yes Ashby? These are the kinds of people that I wanNA see. In my speculative fiction and in my fantastical worlds you know people people of Color Women. I just love it. I ate it up and Finn's backstory that he broke out of his imperial imperial conditioning as a stormtrooper in the tremendous strength of will that that had to have taken and the kind of continual will like rewriting of his own programming that he has to do every day the fact that we never see any of that that that never goes anywhere aware just felt like such a loss and then to have and this foam the character of Janna who as a black woman also is a former stormtrooper Berg and as a leader of a group of former stormtroopers who have also broken out of their conditioning. The fact that says something to me as a black viewer and the fact that that never really he goes anywhere and we never talk about it and Finn is always already meant to be kind of a background story or background character. Even in the story of his own life just never really sat well with me. John Boyega deserves more than deserves more than deserves Po. They deserve to be happy and in love and know like I'm not trying to erase bisexuals like yeah poke date women too. But y'all know what that was about. Yeah like come on and also like I one hundred percent agree with that And I bring up rose to because she she got replaced by Janna like yeah. Jay wrote a new character that I would've should've is yes and so like what a disservice. Both what's her name. Who Plays Rose and to that character because what the fuck like another? It's like. It's so frustrating because this feels more about like Hollywood egos than it feels about like doing service to media that has such a huge impact impact on you know. Yeah I it felt very craven in. It felt very manipulative to replace. Ace rose with another woman of color as if okay you got a woman of color right so you can't complain you know. When we we recognize this for the move that it is an how duplicitous it is and I think the actor's name we played Janna Naomi she's wonderful but like give her another another role don't make are like a pseudo rose Kelly Marie Tran? She deserves more. We as an audience deserve more. I when you're talking about like your experience watching it so I watched it not not like I watched it this week And I my my one sentence review is. This movie is boring derivative and redundant like. I was so bored from the get. Go like just I was so disappointed. And there's a thing that happens when I'm watching a really really long movie like this that I've just cannot get invested in but unlike stuck in his fucking theater and have to watch. We're by the end of it. I can't quite contain myself anymore. Did you walk out of the theater. Windmill punching everyone and Alamo draft. But what I do is like something will happen near the end and I literally cannot contain my my my outrage anymore. So when Ben and Ray Start Kissing I literally yelled out over Fuck Sake in the middle of the theater. 'cause I just couldn't anymore like I'm I bet. Angry Ray lows art address will one I so apparently. Apparently I'm the only person on earth that thought that they had a sibling relationship. Not like oh no data. I thought everyone was like yeah. Obviously they're like you know there was like Kylo was the like abusive manipulative boyfriend. And I was like oh now that said to me I see it but also when they kissed I was like all and then I was like Oh but star wars about incest so go ahead I mean obviously so the we look discussion has been very intense online these past few days and and I'm not like a person I'm not a ray low like I don't I I'm not either I did not have like going in. I do not have like like fingers crossed at hope. Such and such happens there but I mean I don't know now I have to say like a my position on that is I think different because like I mean okay for one. I think that Adam driver is just tremendously remember charismatic I learned. He assessed with Adam driver. I think he's just a phenomenal actor. And that even in a movie like this he rises above material to be like truly just he aggravated his fucking heart out with the crap he was kidding. And so to to me the character of Kylo Ren has always been Adam driver has always been so masterful at at or train his kind of inner you know the tumultuousness and I think his inner the way that he's torn so we've always known you know like like he's not children he's not like just an like an absolute salute monster with no redeeming. You know he has that he has as they say in Star Wars. He's always had good in him. We've always known that it's just just it's been kinda overshadowed in corrupted and star wars like I think that it's you know because it's a myth because it's a legend like I think that and I think because it's just a reality that we are sometimes drawn to the darkness into things that aren't good or healthy for us like I mean I'm sort of like why I I think we need to be able to explore that admits and lending and so when people say like. Yeah but he's you know abusive or like. Yeah but he does dad. I mean I I WANNA say like. I know that it's not like real like this is a realist. Like obviously he does things that would be dealbreakers in real life but this is a real life like it's not meant to be taken as like a one to one one match with you until then though because I think that that under that idea undermines like everything we stand for in terms of why media is important. Well I like it is. It's not none of it's real life. It's vacant space represents important things but I guess I just mean that that it like the silk can be redeemed. Yeah but I guess I that I mean I know I'm I know that has impact but I think that part of the responsibility is viewers to have a sense of like like the the difference between mythological logic unlike real world logic like I so to kind of sable we can explore things in fantasy. See you know in a way that that is where it's kind of safer and it's more a canaanite explore emotional and psychological territory that we that would in reality be unhealthy or or extremely dangerous. I don't know I I I totally get this but I feel like I I always felt raise the sense that Ben could be redeemed. I could always walk away that she was pulled to him from Luxembourg. I am kissing. Well I guess like my my take on it. Is that while I agree that Ray and and Kylo were you're drawn to each other what I hoped would come out of. It was perhaps a greater intimacy but not romantic intimacy. Like that's that's where it goes left for me because one of the things back when we talked about the force awakens wanted things that I mentioned that I loved was the fact that Ray and thin became came such good friends and I love seeing Men and women simply be friends. It's one of things that I love about elementary right just simply befriends to to have that kind of romantic calculus kind of taken out of the equation. I would have loved to to see Kylo Slash Ben you know achieve his redemption not via the emotional work of a woman. We've seen so many times before you know but to achieve it on his own and after he has earned it to. Then you know be worthy of intimate relationship with with ray again is not a romantic intimacy but kind of the romantic. The intimacy of like true equals and friends But just on a on a romantic antic level. I didn't feel I felt her compulsion to know him. Better Throughout these films but I it's me it's me. It's just my perspective. I never felt that she wanted to be with him romantically in the same way. He clearly demonstrated that he wanted her and so to have her initiate that kiss at the end. I was like what no for me. You know. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve love. He doesn't deserve as redemption it just for me. It came went through an engine that I've seen too many times before and I felt that it did happen too quickly and I reckon got a two hour movie. You got to move things quickly. I get it but also I just. I'm like man. This is too easy and too pet. And Yeah there's like we end up with like dude in a women together like fuck off then Copan. The problem is that my problem is that he is that he dies right. Then because because it's always so much easier for us to fully accept right male arc mark when the act that redeems them is is an act of sacrifice. I would have much rather him have to live live so much live a better life than or him to get total. Then yeah that would be redeemed like in an live or that you can. You can go through the struggle that requires the hard fucking work for that. which again another point that? The film didn't earn is that it's not like Laya wasn't trying to reach out to him for years but like she does it once and then he's like cool done. I'm good now. Can I admit though the as you say care like Adam driver is putting putting all on black. twenty-one like he's leaving everything on the table this any scene with him in Harrison Ford where you see like the relationship of a father and a son like I do love those scenes when we saw Han Solo in this movie like go solo go. I'm American ally. I teared up and up. You know like it hit me right in my soft or not. I don't really I don't have feelings one way or another but added Adam driver whatever but I did enjoy like when he turned into Ben Clearly. I totally respect the. He's a great great actor like you was very clear when he turned back into Ben and I just those little moments were so like where he hits the wall and he goes out and like he does the Han Solo Shrug and like he like the way he fights is a little bit different I thought definitely Kudos to his ability to do a such a clear shift shift in like I am now a different immerse in and all of that. So when thing okay going back to larger issues one thing that I have always struggled with and the Star Wars Universe and this is by no means unique to the star wars franchise this notion that we will extend spend grace and forgiveness to certain people no matter what their actions are because we say they are good people conversely if we have decided you are a bad person it does not matter what good you do because you are a bad person and yes so there's always been star wars. It's always what I don't like about star and like I said this is this is by no means exclusive to start with but yeah there's also pardon me where I'm like. You know what. Yeah I kind of do you want Kylo to have to reckon with the the genocide that he has spearheaded you know not get an easy death for for this you know and there's like the Caroline was talking about at the beginning to of how like ray not being of a like a monarchy of some sign dynasty looking from a dynasty and still being able to use the force in and an in interesting and like they're clearly like Finn has four something and he's connected to ray and all the shit like that's all interesting thing and didn't go anywhere didn't go anywhere that was like useful or interesting to me at least and so that's another thing that there were so many opportunities to up route. It's not just like have a woman who gets to be hero but up route the fundamental structures of regressive types of AH power right and like I think that that's one of the most disappointing things that happened is that this franchise had an opportunity to really be progressive and really like build a new model for space wars. This film really you know kind of you know sunk its its teeth back into like the foundational tropes of like Fairy Tales whereby the blood will tell you know and lineage matters and like secret royal babies you know and like power coming through essentially your DNA which is disappointing because these films Star awards are also about the joy in the authenticity of found families and making your own destiny right. So yeah it'd be like man. Oh God it just the fact that she's like Ray palpitation of exile palpitations man. Fuck onto a day. Whatever and there's there's so many things to that I'm like they? It's unfortunate because there are people who don't know Star Wars Lore. I am one of them. I know help attain from like pop culture but I never saw the movie. Okay so I know that he's like it's very clear that he's a bad guy. I mean he was the emperor you know and We see here my younger oldest all of that like this this whole mythology which you know if you know but you don't know if you don't know and so who are all those fucking people that are in this cave that are like are they people are they what are they are. They listening to. What's happening so then I was like well? Can't you just take over the takeover the and then be good and then you're like no I guess you can't be a sip and end of energetic adduced by the dark side. You try to do that. Math is not going where it's like you didn't explain or give us any of this shit for people who might not know who only only now came into the franchise or whatever. I don't know the whole thing was a fucking snooze. Fest you might my big issue issue is God. There's so much `gate-keeping happening online right now. About what it means to be. You know a real a real star wars fan right. There was a tweet was roundly. Roundly mocked by and rightly so it was like true star. Wars fans don't see the movies they do. Some of the following review extended universe books. Now shut out at this. Do this do this and by for me like okay so I. I grew up with the original trilogy ourselves and to me when I look back at those films they they he's still kind of means something of and I think there's a core idea there in the way that Luke ultimately wins by not by using violence domination but by like trying off his lightsaber and by not fighting And I feel like you know this film And and this whole trilogy of films Ray ultimately it seemed to me anyway one through like by out force. Powering you know help eighteen team in some way and like and so I guess it seems to me that the core philosophy of like the original trilogy has now been lost and star Star. Wars doesn't really stand for anything anymore. Any kind of ideas. It's now just a place a setting in which you can tell any kind of story at any kind kind of values you know you have the mandatory which is gunslinger Western. Show two N.'s. Finale just absolutely love it finale loves loves God boilers Nellie one down. So it's a very lack on heavy show and you know like I. I don't know I just to me like I kind of want to. Just pretend that nothing outside of that original trilogy forty six exists. You know again. Go back to that because at at least me whenever just those star wars had some kind of core philosophy that it that it stood for and now it just it's it doesn't mean anything anymore and it just he's perpetuating itself to make more money but there isn't like a guiding ethos to it anymore. Yeah I feel like we need to need. I would love to do a special episode. Where we talk about the the franchise as a whole and bring in and like rogue one and Solo in all of the different cinematic innovations into but I think there's whatever we don't get the time y'all we ain't got the time or the resolve resolve? It's easy to do it without the follow through. Yeah Yeah it's unlikely but You know tweet at Ebony Astor and beg her for this special episode that I will not have anything to do with Adnan at Babu Bob Blue Frick and I'll answer your messages. All right we will be right back with our weekly freak outs. Hey F our listeners. Did you know that if you join our patriotic community you can get nifty perks like early. Access exclusive weekly bonus segments access to our friendly discord. And more. That's right you can get cool stuff and help us keep doing. FFR At the same time. What are you waiting for? Good a patron Korean dot com slash. FEM Freak now. It's time to talk about with them. Thrilling US moving US upsetting us or infuriating us this past weeks since we have more time to come up with with our frigates which are not always easy. Who's got something? I'll go first when I held onto this one for a little while. Maybe not moment has pounds but I wanted to strategically deploy this. which is Ryan Johnson's film knives out. I WanNa see this ASO KNIVES OUT IS A. It's a sort of classic style who done it In terms of its structure. You know it's it's a really fun on kind of playful movie that it just In the way that it's put together it feels very much like a throwback and simultaneously. It feels very much of the of the moment. Because if it's it's definitely really about wealth and privilege and White America end third certainly like it has provoked imported larger conversations. And I think that You know some people some people who come from a background who are some people who are immigrants to this country have raised concerns about like well about the way the film uses Narrative League kind of deploys concerns concerns about About you know immigrants to the United States But for me you know as a white viewer who I. You know I I enjoyed the way that I think is still doesn't let any of its white characters off the hook. which was something that I really appreciated? Except maybe for for the characters killed off early on pretty much like even the even the white care issue you think early on like sympathetic are or is is like the quote unquote good ones. Like even it Kinda does think that delve into their privilege and their perception of the world through through their experience And so anyway it's it's a really smart Movie I think that has a lot of things to say about the moment wearing right now in also just works works really well as a as a kind of classic twisty Done it with Daniel Craig is just fantastic. tastic to watch as this This you know southern a this remarkable southern kind of by though so anyway I had to recommend knives out sweet Ebony Okay so my freak out is the current Michigan's with the romance writers of America. And Courtney Milan and I don't know context I will. I will just said I. Yeah well So this is a story that is bubbling outside of the romance. Fear into non romance centric media so I will not be surprised if after this as you start to see this because it has been written about in the garden and the New York Times whatever. Excuse me shortly before Christmas like two days before Christmas Courtney Milan. Who is a chinese-american? Romance writer writer. She is a lawyer. She is has been and continues to be a really fierce advocate for diversity. Eighty in romance and as a former board member and former chair of the ethics committee of the Romance Writers of America was censured by that organization and because she pointed out but she was by no means the only person to point out because she has a fairly sizable social media following and because she is women one of color she was unsurprisingly singled out for this pointing out that this particular author had written a book in the nineties that was as she described a racist mess. It has a chinese-american heroin. It's exotic exotic sizing. It's racist Courtney says anyways this cabal of as they're called Nice white ladies eighties made a complaint to the romance of America. Which is the Professional Organization for Romance? Writers complained that she that she is essentially thing about book from the nine right and that essentially she was being a bully she was mobilizing twitter. MOBS SCRIPT THE ROMANCE WRITERS OF AMERICA UPHELD This complaint and by the way I will link you to twitter threads that lay out this whole story in both greater detail but also a greater simplicity. It's incredibly complicated. And in very easy to understand 'cause it's the same sort of thing that happens when any person of color anybody from marginalized background speaks out so the romance writers of America are Wma Barred let's they suspended her Courtney's membership for a year. They barred her from any a lifetime of holding leadership positions. This blew up and became a much larger conversation about the ways that the romance genre or certain segments of the romance genre. I e the white privilege portions continue to refuse to see any Space on the stage for people who are not like them people who are not straight people who are not white people who are not privileged. And it's just been a horrifying lying kind of thing to witness but it's also been gratifying and that you really see who your allies are. I don't see as someone who's not a member of art but who is an avid romance reader WHO participates in a lot of these conversations? You know some of these people I do not see see how the RWE survives as an organization past this point You know what's come to light sense. You know before Christmas with the whole Courtney. Milan situation situation is just some malfeasance larger malfeasance on the part of the board. But anyways it's a it's an fascinating I and I think really trenchant kind of conversation goes beyond just the romance on but about you know culture more broadly you know and and as you know former president of art W. A.. Helen came and said like these are people who have had ninety percent of everything for for so long that when they look up one day and see that they have eighty percent rather than saying. Hey I got eighty percent. They're mad because they want to know where they're at ten percent way that Laurie Penny says are from worry. That says when you when you're accustomed to privilege equality yells depression. Yeah that's the one exactly so anyways linke story it's very you know like I said this is a conversation that has bubbled outwards So you many of you have heard about this but many outlets talking about it now cool. That's fucked up it is fucked up So I have a forget but before I want to just really briefly acknowledge that yesterday at the time of this recording the the. US murdered the second top official in Iran. which is all likely going to lead us towards a a war in the Middle East more war yeah continued war but especially with Iran and Iraq is going to be it caught up in that as well so anyways I just want to acknowledge that like this is actually quite terrifying moment and it feels very very much like after nine eleven in some ways where we are just sitting there for a while waiting for things to happen where the government is saying that there are things and reasons for this but not showing any evidence for those reasons for this kind of action? And it's it's pretty terrifying. So if you've got twenty twenty was going to be a better year sake but you know as you know having family in that region and having friends from friendly like it's a lot of us are very much on edge and also just having I just when I urge us to recognize that like America doesn't feel war. We don't feel here on our land in our daily lives. Typically when when we drone the fuck out of the rest of the world and we drone and. That's what wars are these days right. They're not they're not equitably not that there ever equitable. They're not like you know. Sending soldiers in battles on the streets as much as there are like Americans who are in bunkers who you know electronically drop bombs on different on. People and the casualties are enormous. So like our lives are not more valuable And we are in such a politically divided moment You know I know we just talked about that star wars but it's all it's all very relevant and related bladed in how we view humanity and each other and political stuff so I just wanted to knowledge that for folks out there who are struggling struggling and and frustrated and a little bit scared about what's coming up but now I'm going to do my actual freak out so Cameron Hurley's stars are Legion in has been on my reading wishlist for ever and I finally read it. And y'all it's fucking book so I literally can had not. I'm incapable of describing this book because it is so indescribable that I'm just going to read you the blurb so that you have some idea of what it is about Somewhere on the outer rim of the universe a massive decaying world ships known as the Legion is traveling in the seams. Between the stars here in the darkness a war for control of the Legion has been waged for generations with no clear resolution as world's continued to die. A desperate plan is put into motion. Zan Wakes up with no memory prisoner of people who say they're her family. She's told she is our salvation. The only person capable of boarding the Moxie a world ship with the power to leave the Legion but ZANU family is not the only one desperate to gain control of the price ship San finds that she must choose sides in a genocidal campaign that will take her from the edges of allegiance. Gravity well to the very belly of the world. Zan will soon learn that. She carries the seeds of allegiance destruction. And it's possible salvation. Eh can she can. But can't she in the band of Castoff followers she has gathered survived the horror of the Legion and his people long enough to deliver it. So I've tried to explain plane this book and I literally like I had to read that because I don't like yes that's what it's about but it's so not. It's so much more at this. It has one of my favorite things is living ships but the ships are also worlds in this context. And so and they're like an and because then has lost her memory and we're learning about things through this character whose memory has been gone for some reason. We don't know why is it appears that it's been wiped that you know there's little things where it's like well. The word for ship world is the same word. So I don't know if they mean ship our world world right the characters are super compelling. You're both following Zan. Who has no memory and this other woman who like you're kind of like there's some shady going on here and you're not fully telling Zan why she doesn't have a memory anymore and it is absolutely unrelenting like at every moment you're like holy fuck? It does not forgiving. It is kind of brutal and it is absolutely brilliant. So Cameron Hurley's Cameron Hurley. The stars are Legion highly. Recommend reading. Listen the minute you say. World ships the seams between this is ars like certain words that like all of my sensors start tuning in yes into it. I mean I give good book reviews. Yeah I waited so long to read the steers woman seriously. Even though I need to talk about it from basically the first moment I got hired and then I did read Adam and I was like I'm scared to finish the final book because the last ones not out yet and I don't know what I'm GonNa there's two more that have been Britain. Yeah like twenty years and I and I'm just like I. I don't know what to do with these. Books are phenomenal. Yeah yeah this one is is amazing and I will say this. I was debating whether I should mention this or not There the entire Tire Universe is just women There are no men in this entire world and it doesn't matter and you don't really notice it until you notice it it it's not addressed. It's not acknowledged and I think that Cameron Hurley. which was like? I wonder if I can make a story. That's just all women so I think and I didn't know that going into it. Hi there I just eventually was like wait a minute. They're literally has been no. He grow announced at all and so that also creates an interesting dynamic about like conflict and evilness. And who's manipulation and all of these different things there's really interesting stuff happening around burke like pregnancy and reproduction and link which is not anything that you're imagining it. Being so Yeah go read it. It's fucking it's it's so good Anita's break it out is literally freaking out a little. It's a literal freak out for sure. All right you can submit your own freak out. At feminist frequency dot com slash breakout. That's F. R. E. Q. U. T.. Thanks for listening defenders Frequency Radio. Stay tuned for leave Freak and after party only available to backers of this podcast you can learn more at. He tramped dot com slash free. In the upcoming weeks. We will be talking about. which are the new show on Netflix? And we're GONNA try to do a wrap up of the mandal handle oriented so you can listen to our previous episode that talked about the first three episodes. That's a lot of words about associates. Sorry you probably understand what I mean but now that the show is done we want to come back in and let you know what we thought about it. You can find US everywhere. Great podcasts are found. And if you haven't yet go to itunes and subscribe great great and you can vote on twitter instagram. And all the social media's at some free shows engineered by Rob Para Kerry Stimson provides technical support our work by Jamie Barron and our music. Is I feel circus which I can't believe Ebony wants to destroy I don't know no never never oh man Phil can be listening. NBA Trey. Oh exactly so next week for another feminist dive into pop culture by later.
S3 E8: Not Cut Out for This
"Hello nocturnes listeners. It's emily and it's been a wild ride of a year. I can't believe it was only eight months ago that we interrupted season three of our regular podcasts to bring you to new audio diary series stories from pandemic and black voices in healthcare both projects which are really really special to our team and we feel have had huge impact on our audience. So if you haven't heard them check them out. We're also hard at work on a new series about the culture of medicine. We some amazing collaborators for that project. i'm we're planning to announce the call for voices in january twenty twenty one so subscribe to our newsletter. And you'll be the first to know when we're open for new stories. In the meantime we wanted to pick up where we left off and share. The remaining four classic nocturne is episodes of season three. We have a med student. Navigating life on the wards we have a physician talking someone off jr. We have an icu doctor dealing with the aftermath of her own cardiac arrest and a mother trying to balance her personal and professional lives. Keep in mind. These stories and conversations were crafted in two thousand nineteen before the events of two thousand twenty up ended our lives so listen with that context in mind. Here's our show at the nocturne s. We are careful to ensure that all stories comply with healthcare privacy was details may have been changed to ensure patient confidentiality all views expressed. Are those of the person. Speaking and not their employer this episode of the nocturne nocturnal was made possible with the support of the california medical association and syrah communications experience innovation network. Pimping if you've ever been to medical school a word you've heard before i don't love the word and i'm not sure i love the practice but sometimes i wonder. Is there a better way to assess where our learners stand. This is the knock strenous stories from the world of medicine. I'm emily silverman on today's episode. Latham chap tells us how. She responded when her attending told her that she wasn't cut out to be a doctor. After the story lava talk more about pimping. She said she's had teams who see it. As a way to support learning and growth. And then i've also had the opposite where tend to give an residents. Really use it as a lipsey. Exactly how much you know. And how much i can poke you until you break down. But first here's lava first. Clerkship in medical school was pediatrics. I was fresh out of my step. One study period full of enthusiasm and excitement. Ready to blow everyone away. Become the next os. Lers stimson medical revolutionary. And then the pimping began for those of you. Who aren't in medicine. Pimping is this affectionate term. We use when attending residents grill. The rest of the team usually the medical students with questions about relevant topics. There were at least three of us on the service. All of whom happened to be reserved. People but i probably spoke up. The least we were on rounds on what must have been my fifth day in the attending. Who had yet to acknowledge. My presence directly finally looked at me. What does the pathophysiology behind. This patient's presentation of my voice was barely above a whisper. Yawns past seasons changed the attending grew. Tired of my headlight shaped is and moved on. It's not that i didn't know the answer. Anyone who's experienced the frankly unnecessary rigor of studying for the step. One exam knows that. I likely could have recalled far more of the pathophysiology than the attending had bargained for but it was my first time being directly pimped and i was intimidated for the rest of the clerkship. I didn't really raise my hand or answer. Questions didn't volunteer my opinions on patient plans. I figured my goal wasn't to show off. It was to demonstrate my dedication through the time i spent with my patients. My notes my thorough presentations. So i found myself in clerkship feedback and that same attending turn to me for his assessment. You seem to lack a basic level of confidence if you pursue medicine. It likely won't be in a very competitive specialty. Although i suggest that you pursue a different career path entirely your personality won't serve you here. Delivered in his harsh objective tone and eastern european accent. I felt my breath catch in my chest more with every word. I left his office. Feeling sick i cried that night in being quiet and unassuming. I'd been perceived as lacking confidence. It wasn't true but clearly. I had gone about demonstrating at the wrong way so i resolved to change. I forced myself to speak up. Even when no one had asked for my opinion i asserted myself volunteering to triage patients on the ob floor. Staying late to personally sign out patients to the medicine. Nineteen constantly pressing attending zain residents for feedback on my performance. While i was on surgery. I would be in the hospital at five thirty. Am to assist in modifying and printing the patient list going so far as to fold the attending copy. Exactly how he liked it. I was more exhausted than i had ever been falling out over myself to make house staff see this illusion of my worth but it did the trick. My evaluations improved by leaps and bounds. During one of our particularly grueling rotations. My pure made a statement. That while true didn't really sit right with me. He said i feel like these days. I don't volunteer to do anything for patient. Unless i know that a resident or attending is watching me. And all i could think was how far we had strayed from the early days of being passed about medicine that i met mr q. Mr q. was a fifty nine year old male. Who had undergone radiation therapy for previous cancer diagnosis. And as a result several years later was now suffering from osteo necrosis of the jaw essentially his bones had been compromised by the radiation he was having a debris surgery by ent but had been placed on our service for pre surgical imaging and stabilization. He was seventy percent deaf and only spoke a very specific dialect of cantonese called toy. Shen needless to say interpreter services were limited when we rounded on him and anytime anyone was available to interpret. It would be ten minutes before he heard and understood the interpreter and they were able to understand his shaky garbled response my intern understandably overwhelmed and frustrated had taken to coming into his room checking for a pulse asking for a thumbs up or thumbs down and leaving between all the imaging that he required and the continuously changing schedule of the ent team. Mr q. ended up staying on our service for about three weeks the first few mornings. They lingered in his room after we finish rounding he barely noticed and spent much of the time staring at his bed or out the window at the east river. He looked dejected. Who wouldn't be deaf in a foreign country were nobody could understand him even if he could speak with debilitating ear and job pain and headaches every time he moved waiting and oblique looking hospital room surgery. That kept getting delayed left an uneasy feeling in my gut knowing that every night when i went home and hung out with friends or studied or watch. Tv he was sitting alone in his room. One day. i couldn't help it. I reached out in squeezed his hand before i left. I don't know what i had expected. A look of surprise. Maybe even a smile but instead he stared blankly at me than went back to looking out the window. I eventually stopped hanging out with the medical team. My priorities had shifted. I was no longer interested in making my presence known as the smartest and loudest student let someone else answer the questions. Fold the lists constantly crave approval. I put in my notes. I called the antiga updates on his procedure. And i checked him with him about four times a day to give him company room would be quiet for the most part but we would still speak volumes. We came up with the language of our out. I had a colleague print out the cantonese characters for basic words like pain and hunger onto a sheet of paper with english translations next to them for me he would point at the word and then at the body part Thumbs up or thumbs down from here. A dictionary grew words for cough gestures for dizziness. Through this creatively cobbled together language. That i learned one night that he had fallen while going to the bathroom and struggled on the floor for two minutes before willing himself to get up and going to bed. He didn't alert the nurses because he didn't know how to or even that he really had to. It turned out that he had gotten or the static from lying in bed. And we started him on fluids. Eventually we spoke about everything not just as health. He showed me pictures on his phone of himself before he developed cancer. He showed me his wife his children his country. He finally started smiling the day. He went for his procedure when i squeezed his hand. He squeezed mine back when he came back to his room for hours later. His wife daughter and son-in-law were waiting for him they finally had the opportunity to fly it. I saw him through his post surgical recovery and had him placed in sub acute rehab for care. As i was saying that by he handed me the papers that we had been using for our dictionary and as i took them he grabbed my hands. He touched them to his eyes. He let go unbowed. I felt the tears welling up in my own eyes. I'm not allowed or aggressive person. I prefer not to be in the spotlight. Somebody once told me that these are the qualities that would hinder me from succeeding in medicine. I won't say that what that attending told me hasn't helped me. I have felt myself grow in ways. I could not have imagined over the course of my clerkship here and i have him to thank for starting my transformation. But i've also learned that the traits that distinguish a successful student or physician aren't defined anywhere in stone or in any evaluation. One person's unconscious student can be the person to breakdown another's barriers to healthcare. It's just a matter of opinion I am sitting here with lambda pension. It's so nice to meet you in person. It's nice to meet you too I'm really excited to dive into your story a bit but up before we do that. Tell us about your path to medicine. Sure so my path to medicine is actually pretty interesting. I think it's been in the works for a while. There are actually four generations of women in my family that have tried to go into medicine and been unable to because of life circumstances the person who got closest was my great grandmother who was a midwife in a very rural south indian village And to me what spoke the most about her situation is that you know despite there. Were a lot of controversies at that time. With cast and the role of women in society she was really able to still be voice to a lot of women who otherwise might not have gotten care in hearing these stories. I sort of realized that. This is the kind of role model that i wanted. And this is the person that i would want to be later in life so i actually started off in medical school to be an. Obgyn what you're saying about. Your grandmother reminds me of this piece. I just read in the wall street journal. That's all about telling stories about family lineage. To children and how according to this piece even when the children like our board and they're they seem uninterested in there like oh mom another story like i've heard this one a million times that they do take up those stories and that they're actually really important for forming identity and a sense of fitting into a larger story and so having just read the article hearing you say that is really interesting because it sounds like it definitely informed your professional career. Oh absolutely. i do think that. I've been shaped a lot by my family and my ancestors and all that so it's really nice to sort of be able to show them how far i've come and hopefully they're watching some so I wanna talk about something that you said at the very very beginning of your story. Which was you said. You showed up on the wards for your medical student rotation and you said i was ready to blow everyone away. And become the next medical revolutionary. Can you tell me a little bit about that. what is that about. I think whenever anybody enters medical school they have this idea that they see all these people who have influenced medicine in so many different ways right we have people like stimson. People like people like jonas salk right and they just become these names that are just known by everybody even will go on to as late as now is just this person that everybody in medicine knows and admires and i think for me and i can't speak for my classmates but probably a couple of them. It's just the idea that i want to be this person that makes this huge impact on medicine so that was the plan. I think you know. It probably didn't go as expected on that first day. But it's still something that i like. Look forward to making and leaving an impact in the medical field. I really like what you're saying. And hearing all of these sort of feebles about people who shape the field before us and how everyone knows them at everyone is admired by them. And so on the one hand it's like do we wanna emulate them for reasons relating to ego and fame and that kind of thing or is it more that we see the impact that they've had and we want to have the same degree of impact. What do you think about that you know. I do think that there's always going to be some level of ego. That's associated with because i think in making an impact in the field or in any field. You're really saying well. The reason that i made a big impact is because everybody recognizes that. I made that impact. So there's always going to be some level of fame and recognition that's associated with actually changing the field in a certain way so they really can't be disentangled which i kind of leaves us in this weird space where we're having to constantly question our goals and our motives and what's really driving our work. Oh absolutely and i think everybody through medical school has that moment where they're like. What are the actual reasons. That i'm putting myself through this process because it's definitely not easy and it's surprising. I imagine how easy it is to lose sight of those original motives. And i think it ties into this next scene in your story which is all about pimping which forgive me listeners. For using a term that is so little it's doesn't taste that good in my mouth As a word but for for listeners. Who aren't in the medical school universe. Can you explain to them. What pimping is it's basically. When the senior members of team decide to grill the junior members usually the medical students with questions on topics that are related directly to the patients that they're seeing and new. You describe your response to the pimping as feeling like a gazelle on animal planet. Oh yeah can you bring us into that a little bit. Yes sure i think. Medical students are unique in that. We know a lot of information that Usually doesn't end up being relevant. When you're actually practicing you know a lot of the little details the little enzymes and stuff like that and you have this huge fund of information that theoretically when somebody calls on you and asked you to tell you that tell them that it ends up being like. Oh i i should be able to just spit this back out But for some reason whenever somebody in an authoritarian position asks you that question he kinda just freeze and the same way that any animal has a fighter flight. Response that fight or flight responses activates a hundred times. So i feel like even if i do know the answer most of the time for some reason. I ended up stuttering or just not being able to articulate myself very well which is stupid because i do know the answer. I just can't articulate right now. It's a very high pressure situation and you talk about how your reaction to this. You know being pimped being told by your attending. You don't have the confidence that your first reaction was to shut down Tell us about that Those pretty difficult for me to hear simply. Because i wasn't expecting it when i walked into the room Looking back in those six weeks that i spent on that clerkship. That i had done a really good job and all of my patients commended me for the kind of care that i provide provided. But it's very different. What a patient sees versus what an attending or the rest of the medical team sees. Because you spend a lot of time one on one with the patient and you spend a lot of time listening to feelings and talking to them about what they can do when they go home cetera And those kinds of interactions are not things that the team is privy to. So i had a very different outlook on my performance as compared to what my attending felt and listening to him. Make an assessment of me and my character based on the maybe thirty minutes totalled. He saw me throughout the day. was disheartening in the kindest way possible But after i mean after reflecting over the whole year. I think it really is what gave me the chops to build myself back up And pushed me through the rest of the year that tension you're describing is really important. I think to just articulate what you said which is what the patient sees what the attending sees are different. And how you could be doing really great work one on one with the patients but when you're on rounds with your team there is this public Performative aspect one might even say. It's like a game of fide. This like public quizzing and stuff like that and so my initial instinct is to say like that's bad like that's a bad thing but i'm also wondering especially for women if there's a way to talk about things like power and competition as something that's healthy and generative and invigorating and empowering and like is pimping all bad or is there a way that we can think about this act of Performance as something. That's positive sure. No actually i was about to say while you were talking. I think that that started happening to me. When i became comfortable with hearing him question. And saying i don't know. Because i think that's probably one of the most empowering phrases in medicine there is so much we don't know so for me. It became a lot more of a positive environment to be on rounds and presentations. When i was able to say. Actually this is the extent to which. I do know the specific question that you asked me. I probably can't answer. Can you help fill in some of the gaps. So sort of empowering yourself with the question has become one of my main strategies and i think really helped me And it helps develop a closer bond with the rest of your team because then everybody throws in what they know about it. It's learning experience for everyone and also part of teaching is being able to assess where your learners are. So if you aren't probing An urban quizzing. Or whatever word you wanna use pimping as a terrible word Your it's difficult to assess where people are and how you can move them forward. But i i do see this culture where it's pimping and it's aggressive and it's shaming. How do you feel about like running rounds or the kind of environment that you'd want to create or like what would you given what you've gone through and these thoughts and discoveries. How would you run your team. How would you set it up. What kind of tone would you set. Do you think i think for me. The most important thing to establish would be to say. Hey it is okay to say. I don't know it's okay for you to have gaps in your knowledge. We all have gaps in our knowledge and we will help each other figure it out so setting up an environment where people feel safe to acknowledge what their gaps in knowledge are is really important to me and i think that would be probably my main priority if i were to ever run a team like that. Do you feel like you've ever been in an environment like that. I've been fortunate to have both types of teams where i'll have a either an attending or a senior resident who is very nurturing and really wants it to be an environment where you can learn not just be quizzed because there is this performative aspect about being on clerkship so you are being evaluated but more importantly you're there to learn. There's a lot of stuff that you only learn when you're on the job when you're seeing a patient that has this condition so I've had attending residents that acknowledge that and really try to bring that in. And then i've also had the opposite where attending as a. Let's see exactly how much you know. And how much. I can poke you until you break down so you know. Obviously i like one better than the other. And it's amazing how you know an external observer groups of people and in both of the groups. There's a senior person who's cuisine a junior person but one of them could be like a beautiful safe environment that's totally conducive to growth and learning and the other may be a totally unsafe environment. Where the purpose of the quizzing is more as you said to shame to break breakdown to reinforce hierarchy but the observer looking from afar. I wonder like if it would be easy to tell the difference. Or if it's more an energy thing. I think you can tell. I think most of the time when i've seen the to even right next to each other of two teams are rounding. You can usually tell which team gets along. And which team has a more cohesive and a positive learning environment simply because of the you're the energy surrounding it's difficult to put your finger on what it is right is palpable though or in the air I want to take a minute to talk about this concept of a governor So maybe i if you explain to those in the audience you don't know what a or is and then i guess. What do you see. As the role of the governor. How do we rehabilitate gunners. How how do we deal with goners. Yeah i think the governor is a really interesting concept. An it describes a medical student or really any type of student. That is the first one to answer every question that bends over backwards to do things for all the residents and attending z- And that is just generally viewed. Everyone else in the class is just an annoying person to be around into work with But it is a valued kind of skill set so to speak to have on the wards to be able to call upon like being that person that raises their hand a lot or the ass. Lot of interesting questions goes home and does a lot of reading and then comes back and presents it to the rest of the team Because again it's part of that performative that we're being evaluated on. This is something. I have to deal with as well on attending on the war. Of course is if you're running team and there's a gunner on the team who you know taking up a lot of space. Yeah like what do you say to that person. It's almost like the opposite of what this attending said to you. Which is like you lack confidence. You're never gonna cut it like you need to read more. You need to speak up the mirror image of that. What do you tell the governor. I don't know that i've ever seen an attending recognized the governor though. I'm not sure if you usually do when you see them on the wards but even you have a team of two medical students With two medical students. You'll often see that the attending just sees them both as people and maybe one is more talkative than the other. They usually re received the governor as the more interested and receptive student So i've never been in a situation where that's actually been addressed at the attending level. I have seen it addressed at a at a resident level. Where you know. They'll tell them you know you sort of need to back down like you should give other people a chance or even when they ask a question they will literally ask the other medical student in be like. Hey you haven't had a chance to speak up. What do you think about this patient presentation. What do you think about this plan. And sort of specifically give the other person and opportunity to demonstrate their skills as much. It's interesting to hear how People who are quiet and not speaking up and shy and the the ones who freeze one who go into the fighter flight. You sort of know what to say to them. Which is you know. Hopefully not what this attending said to you but how with the gun or like. That just doesn't happen as much sort of like not a default but and so i think one thing that's been helpful for me. Is this concept of like step up. Step back. I don't know if you've heard of it where the idea is. Just be conscious of how much space you're taking up on a team and if you're someone who takes a lot of space like maybe step back every once in a while and on the other side if you're someone who's more shy and introverted and takes up less space to be conscious of that and take a take a risk can step up every once in a while But i don't know. I also feel like it just goes deeper than that. It's not just about like minutes talking like on the democratic debates right there. They're always like warren spend twenty two minutes. Talking people to judge enter yang spent like two minutes talking But i feel like it's more than just time talking like it's it's something deeper. It's like its presence. Its presence on the team right. Usually the gutter student will be the one. That's like front actively like within the circle of residents they might line themselves up whereas the medical student. That's less outspoken. Might be stepping back a little bit. They might be even like on their computer. Probably still listening. Probably still looking at a patient chart just getting ready for their presentation but they're not necessarily as overtly involved and that kind of body language does show up but for them. It's not even that they're less interested. It's this other person clearly. Wants to take this much space. So i'm going to let them because this is clearly where their skillset lies. My skill set lies elsewhere which kind of begs the question like introverts extroverts gunners non-owners or whatever the opposite of a gun is like we talk a lot about diversity in medicine and we talk a lot about you know race ethnicity sexual orientation Life paths life stories. But we don't talk as much about personality types and Having a diversity of personality types and really thinking through like what personality types lend themselves to performing well on a rotation and which don't and how do we account for that or accommodate for that. Is that something you've ever thought about. It is something that i think about. Especially after that situation. I talked to some of my other friends who had had assessments from the same attending who all received actually kind of similar feedback. And what was interesting. Was that the three of us. Were very introverted people. And so when he had given us feedback it was all along the same lines and we realized that it was just because we're quiet people that he just felt like. We lacked a lot of confidence. When i decided that i needed to step up and change something about myself. I said well. I know that. I'm not this kind of person that is like overtly aggressive and stuff like that but there are certain things that i can do to make this more valuable experience for myself. Otherwise i'm just going to be miserable for the rest of the year and you said you read articles about growth mindset. You know doing questions on the train. Growth mindset back. Spit did that. That feel authentic to you or did that feel when you went through that growth mindset thing. Did you get anything out of that or do you feel like it just felt totally inauthentic and it like look. This is not who i am but this is something. I just have to do to succeed. Obviously at first anything feels authentic great. Especially when you're trying something new from like a self help book so it was a struggle to get used to it. I was pretty sarcastic. When i was saying to myself at five fifteen in the morning when i woke up but later on especially as i got towards more difficult rotations for example what i did. My sub internship medicine I did it at lower manhattan. And i would have to commute every day and then i would get in and none of my patients would speak english dealing with that getting translator. Still getting them. The kind of safe discharge that i would provide to anybody else who is a lot easier to deal with I use that as a huge growth mindset opportunity and i felt a lot better and more competent coming out of that than i think i would have otherwise Simply because i learned so so much from that experience and took it in stride. Yeah i love how in the store you take us through. You know this attending says says this thing to you youself examine you do this. Growth mindset stuff and then maybe over correct in the other direction and then. It's this patient who speaks twice unease. That helps you move from over correcting maybe till like a happy middle. What was it about this patient that helped you with that process. Or why why why. Why is he the anecdote that you reached for Think for me. What really struck me was that. He was the only patient that i had seen so far. That spoke a different language and didn't have anybody surrounding him Usually when we have patients in the hospital that are speaking different dialects or languages. They have family members. There that can translate for us Which always makes it a lot easier. But for this patient he was alone. And i had never seen anybody surrounding him until he was pretty much. Ready for discharge. And i it just. It made me so uncomfortable to realize that His family was far away from him. He probably didn't have that much of an idea what was going on for some reason. His procedure just kept getting delayed delayed delayed so for me. I was like he is sitting in a bed for a procedure than to. He doesn't know when it's going to happen. He's in pain. He doesn't even know how to articulate to anyone. If he's thirsty or hungry or dizzy he can't really tell anybody any of these things and it must feel so lonely and the work that you put in to develop. His language with him was or was not recognized by your team So that's like a delicate balance. I think that the med student has to strike. Because i was doing this out of genuine concern this patient but obviously there was a lot of time that i was absent from the teamwork room So i would often go back and be like hey. I'm sorry. i was spending time with this person. This is what we talked about today. This is what i learned. And i would just tell my residents casually just to say hey. I didn't actually go home and take a nap or i wasn't absent for like a long period of time. Just doing nothing. I was actually spending time with this patient. And i want you to know. And i think that really helped because they recognize that this is something they probably wanted to do but simply didn't have time during the day because obviously residency has its own difficulties in time. Management is huge there. But i the med student. Do you have the luxury of having this extra time. Where i can go sit with him and talk to him about his family and really get to know him. Well thank you so much lava for being here Today it was really lovely to speak with you. And i can't wait to hear your story live on stage tonight at our show in new york. City ya'll looking forward to it. Thank you for having me here. I really appreciate it. That's our show. Join us next week. For a story. From physician miriam shined. Bein called ambivalence i wanna thank executive producer allie block producer and head of story development. Adelaide proposal podcast producer. Liza veal director of operations. Rebecca groves and communications specialist corps. Becker our original artwork is by. Lindsey mound are original theme was composed by yosef monroe and additional. Music is from blue dot sessions. This episode of the nocturnes was sponsored by vo sarah's experience innovation network an organization that studies leadership and healthcare and promotes the concept of human centered leadership where leaders focus on their teams physical emotional and spiritual well-being check out the show notes for more information. The doctrines is made possible by the california medical association. The gordon and betty moore foundation and people like you who have donated through our website and petri on page. Your donations helps produce stories that humanize medicine for practitioners and patients alike. Make a gift at the doctrines dot com slash donate. Thank you for supporting our work in storytelling. You'd like to add your voice to one of our future. Projects visit our website at the nocturne est dot com and don't forget to subscribe rate and review our show. It really does help. Spread the word to hear more true personal stories from healthcare professionals and research scientists. Check out saturday night. Stories from uc san francisco. Each episode brings you deeply personal stories of curiosity inspiration and sacrifice. It takes to solve the most difficult problems in health today. Find saturday night stories from. Ucsf on itunes stitcher or wherever you get your podcast. We are the nocturnes. We'll be back next week.
After many years, this long-dormant corner on Woodward will rise
"Daily detroit is brought to you by the community support our work at petri dot com slash daily detroit. Hey it's jair and this is your daily detroit. For tuesday december. Fifteenth twenty twenty. Today we dive into a corner at woodward and stimson in the city you know that one across from the bond sell theater and next to the detroit. One coney island there empty for a while well. After many years on the drawing board there is a project that's really coming together and the work is being done by almost all detroit-based companies woodward west is a sixty million dollar development in the neighborhood. That's quickly changing queen. Lillian and the platform has teamed up to make it happen and to talk about. It is queen lillian. Chris jackson we kind of get into the nitty gritty. About how a deal like this really comes together and everyone. That's involved ettelaat lot then a couple of things to know around town at i promise you i'm sending you out of here on a positive note all right. Let's just get started. Join me on. The line is chris. Jackson he is a principal of queen. Lillian you all have some big news in mid town on a piece of land on woodward that's kind of been quiet as far as development for awhile good afternoon and thank you for allowing me to come on a day and talk to your listeners. We often very exciting news at the corner of woodward and stimpson which for many people landmark would be right across the street from the by stale theater. Just one block. South of mac not far from whole foods being queen billion and the platform have come together in a joint venture development to do this very exciting two hundred and four unit use development that will incorporate twenty four thousand square feet of retail again over two hundred and four apartment units that will range from studios one and two bedroom. And we're excited about how we are now able to help transform this corner which you had mentioned have been vacant. Probably for over fifteen years vacant lot. We identified going back almost eight years ago. My partner james jenkins and i driving up and down. We're we're as we were doing development and other parts of the city but we would always see the site and we just felt that that site had a certain amount of energy. It has something about it that they're truly could be transformative for that neighbor and that neighborhood where we are nestled. Connie was known as and for many years. As part of the cass corridor when we first identified this site and look at developing this all predates. Little caesars arena. Mike illitch school the business. The very nice apartment development called the scott which is across the street from us. So you had none of this development in the lower corridor from mac all the way down to three seventy five matter of fact. You didn't even have any other development of the state place in brush park at the time. I think we have some foresight and we saw that. This area was sort of the last undeveloped corridor. That was there in midtown leading into downtown and there was the rumors of the light rail. There were rumors of the little. Caesars arena but none of that had happened yet and so we approached the city. We went to acquire the site a development plan that initially the project started off as a mixed use development but it was a mixed use commercial development. We had just finished building a sixty thousand square foot medical office building in midtown medical center area and we thought that there was still some synergies and still need for more class a office space so that was sort of our original land for that area and then it was really the foresight and vision of mayor. Duggan's going as we were to three years in the project and the project was sorta sputtering a bit and duggan head for my partner. Actually aside up in mackinac island sitting out on the porch probably both having lemonade. I go up to the conference. I'm well aware the lemonade sir. And so i dug and actually said to gen will really need more. New apartment and more residential development and affordable residential development in midtown thought would be a perfect location for that and so jim and i we sat down. We had already been really pretty much all the way here in already had a design and the project has really been moving along commercial perspective but we took a look at it got dark it say we switch gears to a we want to continue to make it a mixed use development that included retail but we switched out the office to residential and so we appreciate the mayor and so we thank you for that 'cause that was the right direction to go in almost eight years later as that project in boston we started off. It was going to be sixty eight minutes in evolved in two hundred four to one hundred and eleven. that's and then almost two and a half years ago the project was one hundred and thirty four units we were having some challenges with capital and and really just bringing the project up to closer and platform and and peter cummings came to us. We had already known each other but they soon losy who many people know of from midtown in referred to the mayor midtown. She's sort of brought are group's together and say look. Here's a possibility for some synergies with these. Your to detroit-based groups get some of the same vision and focused. There may be an opportunity for you to be able to work together on this project and so we sat down with platform. They really liked location. They shared vision. That we had four and how to be a truly game changer. For that neighborhood west what we're which ultimately the name of the projects were west. You start it. And we embarked upon trying to close out the project. The market back in two thousand eighteen construction market prices just skyrocketed. And you know there was a lot of things going on with the market at that time and so we tried to close and wanted to start destruction back in november two thousand eighteen. And it just didn't happen and so at that point we had actually partnered with platform and we sort of went back to the drawing board. You know We sat down and said okay. We're at one hundred thirty four units. We have fifteen thousand square feet of retail. What can we do make this project. Better make it profitable but you know but also how can it become more i- connick and more game changing for that neighborhood and so we came out of that over. The last two years is what we have today which is two hundred and four units twenty four thousand square feet of retail. And it's a twenty percent of that of the apartment. Units are affordable units at the eighty percent. My and then we're really proud of this way or even identified a portion of our retail space or emerging businesses for detroit based businesses minority businesses. That can take advantage of a low rent type of space so that it could be a vader for their business. Not only do we have affordable rents on the actual residential side. We have that same type of formula in place on the retail side quayle. Who would've thought when through this pandemic and all the things that are happening economy is certainly a testament to you know. My partner's peter cummings and platform of the city of detroit. Detroit economic growth corporation. And what they have done with us in various capacities. The state of michigan the michigan economic development corporation. They all stayed on board with this project and have been there with us through this whole journey. Seven eight years and then the community development financial institutions. there were two capital impacted. Invested trait that came on very early with this project. A lot of the sort of the seed financing that allow us able the project with the architects engineers. And all the things you do space so. We're just very fortunate. They had this great village. That was there as being supportive. And we just at the end of the day sexy construction hamilton anderson which is both the trait based architect and a contractor or design. And we'll build this project. We made our commitment. We're gonna stand behind them as released in hiring detroiters as relations construction jobs as well as local detroit-based based businesses as release. Oh contractors so we're really excited about all the components auto detroit pieces that are part of this and is truly a success story for detroit especially in this very trying twenty twenty. Oh for sure and looking at the press materials. We're looking at like a sixty million dollar project and the location physically. I mean you're right next to queue line. Stop just across the street. Basically from the whole foods you can walk down to little caesars arena for a basketball or hockey game. It's a very well situated spot so you feel pretty confident considering everything that residential is definitely the way to go and that the market's gonna continue here in detroit absolutely. I mean we feel so good about it that there's so many other even as leery synergies and connections with this project just west of us acne steps in it and cast. You have canine of five. Which is the cremator doggy. Daycare in downtown midtown detroit and they've even expanded to add actually a supply store and we worked very closely with the owner of okay nine to five because you know now a lotta people are have per babies so of course we are pet friendly building and but we're pet friendly building with the daycare right down the street from our property. She actually helped us to design a small dog. Run or dog. Part is part of our development as well as a key wash. That's one of the great minute. He's in the building. So perfectly nestled in positioned that even in the case of the people who have pets have their daycare within walking distance. Right down the street from their apartment. So it's going to be pretty exciting. Plays off of as well as a lot of the other development is taking place on the east side of the street. I've mentioned there's a permanent development. The scott there's a lot of development going on in and brush park and so there's a lot of demand for those developments and so now the west side of woodwork will be able to help compliment that because there's been a lot of demand for something on that west with great amenities and positioned near all those other areas that you're talking about with whole foods and the medical center and some of the other retail that you have up mid town so yeah. We're very excited about our position. And the market is still strong. Residential market and coincidentally here in code because more people are working at home. And so if you are going to work from home you want a lot of amenities you have restaurants or coffee shop that you can go to. You can walk to the grocery store and five minutes. You're back at your apartment. No one had any way of knowing or anticipating a pandemic and how people will change their rhythm in living. But i think we're very much position than good way or the new rhythm that we all gonna have while for sure and just quick shutout. Liz blondie is somebody who i have a lot of friends who pay her money to take care of their dogs because she's been around town for a long time in one of those business owners that has really shown how to make it through so i want to definitely give her credit especially since you're giving her credit for those kind of things i wanted to ask you how important we've talked about like those amenities being close. You know in that time that you've been talking about that eight years or so. The thought around the trade development has kinda change right. There was a time where everyone was like. Oh we're gonna make homes that look exactly like the suburbs out somewhere and in that time. It's really become something that i think. Some people didn't think would happen. Which is the motor city being about being walkable being about what mayor duggan's says in his twenty minute neighborhoods. I know that that's a really big push of his. Was that something that was a change for you. And do you think that that's the future of kind of what we're looking at here with detroit development going forward the whole twenty minute neighborhood walkability even looking at a project and looking at this what. They call a walk score. This project actually has a walk score of somewhere maybe around ninety two ninety three percent and because of those entities that are close proximity. This is definitely a transient over the country. Urban communities people want to sort of live work play all in one place and then you just can not manufacturer some of the just the character that comes with a great community like you having to train like we have their on what we're in midtown right across the street. We have the Theater you can't go and just build a boss still theater in the middle of a greenfield somewhere. Such a nice iconic aesthetically beautiful building that adds to the living experiences just west of us. You know you mentioned liz. Blind date and s k nine to five next to her matt hessler and has his tattoo shop. And you have peterborough the great asian usually restaurant you have the shipping company which is just west the bat as so. We're really excited about now. We're getting the ads that neighbor and in addition to that there will be this great knicks Comes and and you know that's really indicative of with the mayor has been talking about how we don't have these two traits. Want everyone to be able to enjoy these amenities for just behind us. They actually are doing a brand new development of apartments. It was a beautiful historic building. And it's gonna be all affordable at forty and fifty percent. Am i and we have actually met with them on several occasions. And and we welcome that and they're welcoming us into that neighborhood. That will become one of those twenty minute neighborhoods. And they're on the west side just as brush. Park is sorta transforming itself into a one of those twenty minute. Neighborhoods chris jackson. I really appreciate your time today. Go through all of this kind of walk him through the project and what's happening. He's a principal at queen. Lillian thank you so much. And i'm looking forward to it. Looks like open in summer of two thousand twenty two that's correct. We're prepared to work through these next year. Winners of the. Yes we We're excited and we'll keep you posted of our progress and of course as we get ready to open the doors. Well thank you so much sir. Thank you here are a couple of things that you should know today. A new survey out from the detroit regional chamber by the glenn gareth group shows some interesting trends around mask mandates and what people want the state to support in the wake of the pandemic more than sixty eight percent of michigan voters support. The state legislature passing a statewide mask mandate the only group that opposes. It are those who identify as strong. Republicans seventy two percent of independent voters and just over half of voters who lean republican support. A mask mandate as to priorities for government support. It's all about small businesses. According to the survey of both those in the metro detroit area and across the state fifty percent of respondents say that supporting small businesses should be the first priority state leaders should address. That's far and away the most popular choice for context. I mean do you remember when everyone was talking about fixing the roads and bridges. That was a whole thing for governor right. Well that's down to just over two percent of michiganders thinking that's the top priority. So kind of show you how times change support. The governor is the same as it was in the spring around sixty three percent. Schools are an interesting issue as well just under half of respondents think school should be held online and just over a third in person with the remainder thinking a mix of both there are also different views depending on where you live about the virus and the economy. If you live out state the data shows you generally think that if we just opened things up that would be the way to restart the economy regardless of the virus situation. If you're in metro detroit the majority that you need to get a hold of the virus to get the economy back on track and where people feel safe is tied to identity politics as well. The only place strong republicans do not feel safe is going to the bar right now. However independence at democrats have a sliding scale ranging from the grocery store as safest to outdoor gatherings with friends work indoor gatherings eating indoors at a restaurant and finally bars. I'll note here that despite the poll data and how you may feel health experts tell us that gathering indoors is a great way to sick and spread the virus and is not encouraged my big takeaway having seen a lot of angry comments sections over the last couple months the loudest voices online are often not the ones that reflect what most people are actually thinking. I promise him good news before we and here it is. Although the nation is experiencing another surge upon a surge of covid nineteen cases. Michigan is one of just a handful of states that had very high case rates and are now declining with a twelve. And a half percent test positivity rate. Were not out of the woods yet. But we're getting into the five thousand case day range which is an improvement and there are improvements in all three local counties. Deaths are still up as they are lagging indicator but with fewer cases. They should over time go down. It seems as if enough michiganders' limited their travel over the thanksgiving holiday to avoid double surge and that is good news. And we're learning more about the vaccination plans a reminder that it's only frontline workers right now is they're just under eighty five thousand doses of the pfizer vaccine assigned to the state. And here's how some of them will be deployed locally the city of detroit plans on using the t. Cf center parking lot for drive thru service as well as garages from olympia development. Mccomb county is rolling out vaccines when they arrive. At the ver- highland building in mount clemens and oakland county is deploying them at their five drive up testing centres. All of this will ramp up as more vaccines become available. And of course we'll share the latest with you right here on daily detroit and we're done with episode six fifty eight of the podcast. Thanks so much for listening and thanks to our members on patriot who support us that patriot dot com slash daily detroit. You are helping push detroit's conversation forward at. It's greatly appreciated if you've got feedback. Leave us a voicemail at three one. Three seventy nine thirty to eleven. That's three one. Three seven eight nine thirty to eleven or email me at jair added daily detroit dot com with that. I'm jerry stays the care of each other and we'll see you around detroit.
North Korea Seen Lining Up Military Aircraft For Possible Show
"This message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X.. By get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply and North Korea. Dozens of military aircraft have gathered at an airport on the nation's east coast. The planes appear in satellite images which were shared exclusively with NPR DR and as NPR's Brumfield reports it may be a show of force and yet another sign of the north frustration with diplomatic negotiations. The images were snapped by the Commercial Satellite Company Planet. As of yesterday they show North Korean fighter. Jets helicopters embalmers at an airport in the city of one son. Jenny town is an analyst who's looked at the images. There is a long line of military aircraft of planes just lined up in a straight ro all the way across the tarmac town is with the stimson center and the Website Thirty Eight Northwood shared the imagery with NPR. The wide variety of aircraft arranged age so neatly makes her suspect. This is an air show aimed at an audience of one North Korea's supreme leader Kim Jong UN although North Korea undoubtedly knows who's the. US satellites can see it too. Yeah I mean they definitely know. We're watching. They want to remind us that they have capabilities. Joseph Dempsey tracks North Korea's military free at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in the UK. He says North Korea's Air Force is big on paper but also pretty old. It's very day said still there are a lot of planes here. What's on display? Probably represents a significant fraction of the North's operational aircraft became the previous years. This seems big. Why go big now? Jeffrey Lewis with the Middlebury Institute of International Studies says North Korea is frustrated last year the country three closed its nuclear test. Site suspended. Numerous military activities including an airforce demonstration. Like this one. The North Koreans have said that they have given the trump administration ration- series of gifts for example stopping long range missile testing stopping nuclear tests. And what they're expecting in return is a transformation in the relationship and the centerpiece of that for them is the removal of US sanctions so far. The trump administration hasn't budged on sanctions. It wants to see the north commit to giving up all all. Its Nuclear Weapons before it provides relief. Negotiations have gone nowhere since a failed summit in Hanoi earlier this year and meanwhile Lewis says the north worth has been making good progress on testing shorter range missiles the North Koreans have been pretty busy on the missile front. It's going gangbusters. There are five new systems that we have seen this year. North Korea has given the US until the end of the year to make some sort of deal. Lewis says if diplomacy continues to go nowhere than I think. We're GONNA see some new fireworks. The weather those fireworks are missiles or nuclear tests or something else will be up to North Korea's leader Kim Jong UN Jeff Brumfield N._p._R. News Washington.
Southeast Asia's Largest Lake Is Under Threat And So Is The Greater Mekong Ecosystem
"This message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X.. By get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply Southeast Asia's largest lake is under threat and with it an entire ecosystem dams overfishing and this year drought have brought the Cambodian late to what may be a breaking point Michael Sullivan reports. They partied at Cambodia's annual water-festival infinite pen. This next year celebration. Maybe more subdued. A devastating drought this year left the Mai Cong River at its lowest Louis Level and recorded his. As the Mai Cong goes so goes the tonle sap and the fishermen there are already feeling it. It's just after daybreak in the village of Chinook. True at the bottom of the Thomas Lake where fishermen bring the catch to brokers waiting at the water's auto broker punny clutches a thick wad of Cambodian bank as she barks at her underlings in ways of the fishermen's catches she says has businesses down nearly seventy percent last year when the fishermen came they'd have ten to twenty pounds of fish to sell this year. They're the only bring two or three pounds. Fewer fishermen fewer fish and smaller fish. She says unless variety to one of the fishermen thirty-one-year-old some mm so king says he spent two nights on the water but his meager catchy says means he'll be lucky to break. Even last year I I could earn almost seventy five dollars a day this year. I barely make enough to pay for gas in bait another fisherman. Tim Sean says he and his wife were out all night. I WanNa know what you told. Last year I could catch about twenty pounds of fishing day today. You see I caught only five. His wife says if things don't get better she'll have to go work on a Chinese companies cassava plantation to earn enough money to survive. Here's why their stories about fewer fish matter. The Tony SAF is the world's largest inland fishery handout and It's the beating heart of the make. Hong Brian Eyler is the Southeast Asia Director Director at the Stimson Center and author of the new book. Last days of the mighty make on. It's the miracle of the main Hong that produces five hundred thousand tons of fish each year for the people of Cambodia and then translates into two point. Six million tons of fish caught throughout the rest of the make Hong Basin that amazing productivity is due to a unique phenomenon that occurs each year when the seasonal monsoon swells the maycom river so much it pushes water into the Thomas Upriver causing it to reverse course and filled the lake to five times. Its dry season size and not only brings in a lot of water but it amounts of sediment go in that forms the basis of a food web to feed the massive amount of fish fish eggs and fish larvae and adult fish. They they go into the late. Can they find habitats to thrive not just fish but endangered waterbirds from all over the world. When the floodwaters recede the river reverses again taking the sediment and fish and their eggs back into the Michael normally this process takes several months this year it was over in in weeks for a population that relies on fish for seventy percent of its protein? That's a huge problem and it's a problem that's has got many worried back in the lakeside village of genetic drew. I meet with sixty two year. Old Pop Pelada works with fishermen and local NGOs and has lived hear more than forty years and this year she says is the worst she can remember to Buna Zaba. Next month should be the height of the fishing season season but the water and the fish are already gone. So what will the fishermen catch mini. She says we'll have to move to the cities or find work abroad as manual laborers. The survivor and drought isn't the only threat. Overfishing dams built on the make Hong by China and Laos upstream are already impeding fish migration and sediment flow downstream and more are planned. The Tonle SAP experts warn is now on the brink and with it. The food security ready of tens of millions for N._P._R.. News I'm Michael Sullivan in Phnom Penh.
19: The Clotilda Legacy, Part 3: The Reckoning
"Before we begin a quick programming note this will be our last episode of two thousand nineteen but season three a family. Ghosts is just getting started. We are taking a short break for the holidays. And we'll be back with a brand new story on January eighth stay tuned after the credits for a sneak preview of that episode and thank you as always for tuning spoke media previously on family ghosts that to a truly historic discovery in southern Alabama. The schooner clotilde brought one hundred ten Africans to the US shores in eighteen sixty after the captives were brought ashore. The ship was burned. The evidence destroyed ever since people have tried to find it. Maybe one day De Conscious Mon let them go to sleep in their wake up one morning and say I'm GonNa call the newspaper until that we sore for what happened to those Africans came on a closed till maybe that will give some validation to them acknowledging in June. Would they hit the. This is Mayor Mayor St Avenue. They still have this strong hall of the community. They still have land really use bad words but I just say forget down as you say forget them. I don't know how people feel about. Spirits are the ancestors but I just feel like you know my grandmother my hi great grandmother. I'll push me to be the next in line Hello Ghost family. Welcome to go at the end of last week's episode Joycelyn Davis discovered that she might finally get the opportunity to sit down with one of the descendants of Timothy Mayor. joycelyn remember is the great great granddaughter of Charlie Lewis who who was enslaved and brought to the US on a ship called the clotilde in eighteen sixty as part of an illegal smuggling scheme orchestrated by Timothy Mayor a wealthy businessman an antebellum mobile Alabama. The survivors of the CLOTILDE and their descendants have been waiting for the mayor family to publicly publicly acknowledged Timothy's crime for over one hundred years but as our producer Vera learned on her visit with Joycelyn last summer. They're not going to wait forever forever towards the end of my trip to Mobile Joycelyn told me. There was a big event coming up in Africa town August. Two Thousand Nineteen marks the four hundred year anniversary of the first ship of enslaved Africans to land in English. Speaking North America Appoint Comfort in Virginia in sixteen nineteen. The National Park Park Service is organizing a ceremony where bells will ring across the country for four minutes to commemorate four Hundred Years Since the beginning of slavery. Africa town is putting on its own ceremony joining together the first slave ship landing in US history and the last the Kotova sixty minutes and other news crews will be there and Joycelyn is going to be the MC Joycelyn who once feared. What would happen if people found out that she was a descendant the Senate of slaves who sometimes feel physically sickened by the idea of public reckoning with the mayor family? Joycelyn is going to be the one to ring the historic Africa town. Freedom how the bells history goes all the way back to the clue Tilda. I learned about it from Joe. Womack who gave me the tour of Africa town in the second episode of the series. Joe Says Though when the quote all the captives who were mostly children were on the ship and terrifying an inhumane circumstances Kim stances the bell brought them together as so as they were coming over. They noticed that when the bell rang fair a stone was coming to see. We'll get rough and when the bill then rain if they almost come so when the bill ring fairly was young he was scared so the up and they got to be very close according waiting to Joe when the captives were ordered off the boat into the swamp they had a hunch that the boat was going to be destroyed so they asked captain foster if they could have the bell foster agreed and they managed to hold onto the bell throughout their captivity and the civil war finally when they founded Africa town they made the bell a centerpiece of their community. What they moved out to river enough here they built a choice and they put their bill in their church and then when they venture to build the school they brought it up here and it would ring in in the morning when the task turn taking ring in the new school? TAKEOUT JOE says the bell remained at Mobile County Training School until the nineteen eighties when the school system sent a maintenance crew to look at it and the school bill cracking not cracking. But you know rushed and everything else would the main this cruiser. We take woods and we don't take back and we all sandblasted painted. Bring a bag with they got the bill never brought it back. Never brought it back eventually a couple years ago. The Alumni Association President bought a new Bell on the Internet for one thousand dollars and some local brick masons mounted it and though we have re established. That'll be now. Yeah so so we we think to be is probably somewhere in the courtyard. The family it was a year to get around to be clear. Joe's kidding around here but his joke shows however present. The mayors are in the story of Africa town even when it is. It's not about them. Their shadow haunts this story of resilience and triumph. As preparations for the ceremony began. joycelyn still still hadn't heard back from Ben Rains about whether or not Robert Mayor would be willing to talk to her about their families shared history and I wondered with such a big media event happening being in the heart of the community where they still own so much land would the mayor's finally publicly acknowledged their role in the story. I ask Joycelyn what she was picturing as the ideal outcome of the day she mentioned that they would be leaving an empty seat in the front row for the mayor's we are Given them an open invitation to come and celebrate with us but I just feel like the walls shake if they walked in from spoke media and W. A. L. T.. You're listening to family ghosts. I'm Sam Dingman and this week. It's the finale of our series on the CO Tilda. This is part three the reckoning. uh-huh this episode is sponsored by route insurance four years ago route insurance realized that traditional car insurance was outdated and they wanted to give car insurance a modern modern and fair approach route insurance is car insurance made easy. They use an APP to base rates primarily on how you drive not who you are in two thousand nineteen route insurance saved. It's good drivers up to fifty two percent. Route Insurance is available coast-to-coast in twenty eight states and growing and it's easy to give it a try. All you have to do is download. The root insurance APP drive normally for a few weeks during the root test. Drive and see how much you can save Dave. So don't wait. Give route a try head to your APP store and download the root insurance APP and sign up in less than a minute to start your test drive today Eh. That's our ot again. Download the root APP today or visit. Join Route DOT COM to learn more and see how much you could it safe. Mandatory disclaimer route reserves the right to refuse to quote any individual a premium rate for the insurance advertised here in savings based on national reviews reported by actual actual customers form one not available in all states. This product is not available in California SPOUT media at the end of last week show Joycelyn and I sat down with. Ben Reigns the journalists who found the clue Tilda and is also friendly with Robert Mayor. Timothy mayors great great grandson. Ben told Joycelyn he'd ask Robert if you'd be willing to meet with her to finally break the Mayor Families Silence about their role in the enslavement of joycelyn ancestors. US is going to call them up and see if we could facilitate a conversation and I think you probably yes at that that point. We had to wait a while to see if we'd hear back from the mayors in the meantime whenever our own family goes producers survey Shockley told me a story about her own and family that felt intertwined with this story so I sat down with her to talk about this history in the hopes that might shed light on. Joyce Lund's plight in Africa town survey. I grew up in Oakland but her father's family is originally from Tennessee where they were enslaved for generations they can trace as their family history all the way back to eighteen thirty three to a woman named Dixie Shockley. She was the child of her master pastor of her owner And so in Tennessee they had relatively loose laws when it came to property and enslaved people could inherit property from their own are if they were related so she inherited land and freedom when he died. That's Serreyah last summer. She visited Nashville for a family reunion. One day they had the option to visit the estate where their family was enslaved about an hour and a half bus ride away. Forty of her relatives loaded up and headed over to the property which was in Mcminnville a small small town with just a few stoplights. Suray didn't know what to expect. We pulled up to this house and it was quainton than I thought it would be. It was much smaller than I thought it would be. They were greeted by the mayor of the town. A white man. He stepped inside the bus because it was raining. Hard outside as he began to speak Serreyah notice that he seemed nervous. Really nervous it turned out that it was his family it own surveys family. He began to cry as he apologized to them. Sarah started to feel kind of trapped. She hadn't known this would happen when I was I was paying attention to him but I was spending a lot of time looking out the window and I just remember like we pulled onto the side of the road that wasn't well paved or anything. It was just basically an empty field. With this house spouse that again was smaller than who smaller than and I thought it would be and I just remember like looking at a lot while he was talking up until this point survey had always thought this. This would be an important moment hearing an apology from this white family but it turned out that it wasn't what she expected. I had this sort of overwhelming homing feeling of like it didn't really matter what they thought or like what his family had been sharing around the campfire for one hundred years item. Care about that because the people whose histories mattered to me and whose stories mattered to me in what sort of oral tradition that had been passed down they were like all around me and so I I just remember like sort of being like glad what I was there but also that was not the most important part of the trip for me. What sticks with Suray from the day is actually a visit to her family cemetery Terry? The mayor didn't come along for this part. I fell very emotional. Going to the to the cemetery. and like and touching these gravestones set are some of them were one hundred years old and I very much felt the spirit of the people who had worked that land some free some not and died there and probably knew nothing else I told Sarah about Joycelyn struggle between wanting to reach out to the mayors and feeling fed up and hurt by their silence how she goes back and forth between wanting to say forget them and then talking to Darren and getting riled up again deciding she really does want confrontation a reckoning Syria said that joycelyn might find. That apology doesn't heal the wound. I think what's so hard about having those conversations is like so often they are no matter what happens. They're going to be unsatisfying unsatisfying. What I wanted to hear that he did say was? I'm sorry. He said I'm not sure I don't think he said those exact words but he said some version of basically like sorry But what's unsatisfying. About it it's it's like it doesn't change anything. In fact I survey at the moment with the mayor was painful because it was so awkward. It's hard knowing going that you're making someone uncomfortable uncomfortable just by existing. This reminded me of something. Joycelyn said the last time we talked on the phone. She told me how frustrating frustrating it is to be treated by the mayor's if she and her family were the ones that have done something wrong. There's an emotional cost to reaching out and getting rejected. I wondered whether Sarah's story might resonate with Joycelyn and maybe help her to clarify what she wanted to get from a meeting with the mayor's so when I went back to mobile for for the bowel ringing ceremony Syria came with me. We met up with Joycelyn at Union Baptist Church in the heart of Africa town. She's been worshiping here since she was little. Her ancestors built the church after the civil war and she leads Bible Studies on Sundays then then survey told Joycelyn the same story. She told me about Mcminnville and the mayor on the bus in the pouring rain and he got really emotional and was apologizing to us and what I just remember feeling was like okay. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah so that's I think I'm I'M GONNA this. Yeah I feel that it was like I'm just GonNa say well okay for some people. Apologies helps them but everyone is different. You know is like you hear my feelings. You say well I'm sorry but then St Room which see it room which a d it now. This might be surprising since up to now. Joycelyn has spent a lot of time time and energy thinking about the mayor's trying to reach out to them but she explained that she feels this. History is just so much bigger than one family there. Other families involved in owning the people who came over on the Clo- Tilda and there was captain foster and the whole crew of the ship who were also involved not to mention the African African traders who captured and sold her ancestors when the Kotova arrived in Benin Joycelyn wishes she could ask the mayor's about all the other people involved. She mostly wants information formation even so she does hold onto a vision of an ideal reconciliation in her mind. She told me about it. I on the phone and then in person. And this is what Joycelyn pictures she and the other descendants of the quota sit under a tent and plateau the highland area above the swamp where Mobile County Training School and the Union Baptist Church stand. It's a bright and sunny day. Perfect for a ceremony. The mayor family is present and and so our representatives from Benin it will be total silence here pin drop. If that happens I can see the cameramen and the reporters. It will be an amazing thing. You know all eyes on them Delegates from Benin did come to Africa town last year. They took a tour of Mobile Bay. On Ben Means Boat following the last known path of the Kutilda and did a sort of blessing ceremony on the water but Joycelyn on says they never apologized to the descendants. No one has done that. And joycelyn feels like it would help the community so much to be able to move forward which brings us back to Robert? Mayor Demand Joycelyn hopes will turn out to be the radical mayor the one to finally break the silence a few weeks after our conversation with Ben Joycelyn met up with him again to do an interview for a separate project at the end of the conversation. He told her he'd reached out to Robert Mayor. He was packing up he was like. Oh yes unless you know. That umbrella mayor said he didn't want us be once again. The mayor's had rejected her request. And in the moment the main thing Joycelyn felt was fed up. I was like okay. Well if you want to eat on how to is fine and it's okay. As far my whole thing about it is as if they tell today. They'll still be rich tomorrow. You will be steer rich tomorrow. You steer still have your land. You used to have your name. Nothing is GonNa Change if you tell nothing for joycelyn excellent. The most important thing is preserving Africa tons story and the legacy of her ancestors. The mayors are just one small part of that. You you know they they. They don't define they don't mind. You know the beginning of the end of my family. They don't define our our heritage now rich history and they are part of it but they made August by recently Joycelyn was driving and she saw a billboard award for the fortieth anniversary of the Porch Creek Indian Powell and she got to thinking legacy they have Powell up every every year and they dressed in traditional clothing and they do different name though. That's what I want. You have to keep this. The story gone and you had to pass the down because the new doll out of them away. The bell ringing ceremony is an opportunity to do just is that there will be speeches from community leaders libations to honor the ancestors and the release of one hundred ten butterflies representing one hundred ten survivors of the Kyoto. The ship Joycelyn hopes the event will shed light on Africa town and the history of slavery in Alabama which people in Mobile. Don't like to talk about There are still going to leave that empty chair out for the mayors whether or not they show up you know in the south there is a saying that one monkey nonstop a show. So doc the show after the break the show goes on this episode. It is sponsored by upstart as most of us have found out the hard way getting into debt is easy and getting out is difficult. Especially if your credit score isn't great and thankfully now there's upstart dot com the revolutionary lending platform. That knows year. 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And if you're not happy with your counselor for any reason you can request a new one at any time. I'm a huge believer in the benefits of therapy. It's made a monumental difference in my life and better help is a great option. I tried it out and I was really impressed with how thoughtful the initial survey that I filled out was and when I was matched with Amanda my counselor. She was already well versed in my many various issues and she asked really helpful questions in her very first message to me. The Best of all better help is a truly affordable option. Family goes listeners. Get Ten percent off your first month with Discount Code Ghosts so why not get. It started today. Go to better help DOT COM slash ghosts simply fill out a questionnaire to help them. Assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love that's it's better help dot com slash ghosts ooh spark media Mobile County Training. School is the oldest school in Africa. Town founded in eighteen eighty and built by the descendants of the quota the walls of the gymnasium are blue and white like the schools mascot a whippet which just sort of like the cousin of a Greyhound. Dog It is here that the bell ringing ceremony will take place around one PM. People Start Arriving some walking from nearby homes others coming by car on their way in people in all white or African inspired close hug and greet each other warmly fellow churchgoers neighbors friends and family many are alumni of the school some of whom graduated all the way back in the sixties. A local musician named Wayne Curtis plays a set of Conga drums. A representative of the local choctaw tribe smudges siege around the gymnasium. Uh As people enter Serena and I talk to them about why they're here. My Name's Chris Pass to Yorktown Baptist Church and we're here to a remember the slaves who were brought over about four hundred years ago and the last slave ship to come into America which ended up here in Africa town. So that's why we're here. We're going I want to ring the bell so the world enough. It means that the story that has been told for hundred years has a whole lot agility to it and is true and the people that live here. Should tell the story and it's going to tell the story and it's telling the store we're glad that it ended but it should never be forgotten. We also talked to community members ars and direct descendants of the Koto survivors four hundred years a whole lot of time and we are all tied to the first Africans. So I'm really here to celebrate them. I think we deserve some recognition for what has happened a long time ago because it did happen when the ceremony begins we head inside. Joycelyn stands at the front of the room behind a podium. She's wearing a white pantsuit pearl necklace and and silver studied high heeled shoes facing a crowd of several hundred people she looks both nervous and poised and everyone ways several news teams filmed the event as well as a film crew shooting documentary. Finally the hubbub calms down and Joycelyn begins and again good afternoon. I like to welcome everyone to Africa town now. A little a little small community that has a big and rich history. Today is a great day. I'm excited and I. I am so happy to see so many faces here today and this is a great day a day of healing and also the opportunity to share forgiveness to all God's children from all walks of life we are here to highlight the fact that England's involvement in the inhumane egg that began again in this country and the land in Virginia at the Point Comfort near Jamestown and the closing in Africa town with the last known slave ship clotilde brought my ancestor a place where they made a home in spite of the way that they arrived here. Our community Mr respects and recognizes all color religion and gender. This community was tall. One powerful listen and desolate. All God's Children Jamestown is the beginning and Africa town is the last known ending today. Let's start a new beginning as she moves back to her seat. The cameras of the documentary film crew closely shadow. Her face people snap photos and stream her image onto facebook. facebook live as the ceremony goes on the speakers engage. The audience in different ways are participant named theodor. Lush asks the audience to call forward the spirit spirit of their ancestors here by call the ancestors to be with us. We pour libation. Don't for mothers and fathers who rest in the Valley of the dead. I'm going to ask that you call All out these ancestors names allow let them know that you think of Oh Bill Murphy know that you are here. Oh Aw oh ask Sir call how PLO close to two PM. The crowd moves outside for the Bell Ringing Women and African print shirts and head wraps up's men in DC keys and people in white stand around the bell in the school's courtyard they wave handbells in the air and look out at the bright blue sky at one fifty nine. PM Joycelyn as long climbs up the bell platform in her heels and begins to ring for four minutes. Joycelyn stands in the middle of the courtyard a mobile county training school in the centre of Africa. Tone ringing the schools she surrounded by hundreds of well-wishers while around the country bells ring to commemorate the legacy of slavery. Nationwide the Sun gleams on on her pro Nikolos and earrings herself pumps sparkle and she'd beaming itself. There's a moment of stillness before the drumming begins again. The crowd heads back inside where the mayor of Mobile Sandy Stimpson gives a short speech. Are- Mayor Stimson is known to be friends with the mayor. Family many in the crowd are surprised. He showed up to the ball ringing ceremony at all as mayor stimpson begins to speak some of the descendants in the crowd glance at each other I notice Joycelyn hold her program in front of her mouth and whisper something to Darren. But I can't make out what she's saying you know. Many nations and many cultures came together. Breathing live created the soul off of our city. But in this history last truth we must never nor and that is the stain of slavery and the negative impact on the soul of our city. For many there's not been properly knowledge of the sense awful fathers regarding slavery and thus the soul of our city not completely healed and as the mayor around the city of mobile. I can assure you that all the resources that are at my disposal whether it be collaboration whether it be financial you have my pledge to work with others who want to build a mission. Jelly Start and assuring a brighter future so to date as they city and as a community come together no longer the hot I history join just in a short prayer please. Decried bows their heads racial submersible these remarks and the prayer for unity are the closest is that Joycelyn and the residents of Africa town here to an apology for the wrongs of the past but we have fallen short who us to be ribs. Sin Against Against Fellow man by saying things. We shouldn't say thinking things we should think doing things we should do and not doing things we should have done that. Then all come to a stop right now let us come together. Almighty God let us surrender spirit. So's the chair left out for. The mayors sits empty throughout the afternoon and the family is not mentioned in any of the speech is generally ghosts. I will continue in a moment before we go on I want to take a quick moment to tell you about another podcast. I think you might love. It's called mental illness. Happy Hour from famous COMEDIANS. Like tiffany Haddish. Marc Maron Neal Brennan and Maria Bamford to authors like Dr Ellen sacks athletes like NHL Legend. Theo Fleury Lori and regular everyday people. There's something they have in common. They've all bared their souls on the mental illness. Happy Hour podcast. Every week since two thousand eleven and they along with host Paul Gilmartin have been talking about the things that many of us have never set out loud. Sometimes they're funny. Sometimes they're heartbreaking but they're always honest and human. The New York Times calls the mental illness. Happy Hour AH purposely safe place. Esquire says it's vital compassionate gem that fills a desperate and under address need in our society and psychology today says mental illness happy hour normalizes. What so many others feel but have been too fearful or ashamed to express and Sam Digman for what it's worth says? I've been listening to this show for years and it is just as special as those other more August news sources you say it is. Every episode is full of bravery humor and heart. My favorite one is the episode with Luke Burbank. One of my radio heroes and I would highly highly recommend it. Listen to the mental illness. Happy Hour wherever you get your podcasts ghost family. Thank you so much for listening to our show and being part of what we due today. I need to ask for your help. This is something that will only take five minutes of your time. Please go to spoke media dot io slash rush survey and. Tell us a little bit about yourself. It really helps us find advertisers. which helps us keep this show and your podcast feed? That's spoke media dot io slash survey. And thank you Spark media by the end of the barring ceremony joycelyn white pants suit is rumpled sweaty. She's exhausted she's been up since six. Am talking to news crews and preparing. But she's happy. That was awesome. It was awesome just to see all the people around you know. There's one to stop for managers to look like. Oh my goodness oh these people well but as they say in the south they they showed up in showdown. Oh Yeah Yeah I was. I was and I had my heels on. I was the law. Follow ancestors please let me fall. Joycelyn represented her family's history for the world and she feels good. What about that? It's work. She wasn't always able to do. A lot has changed since she was the shy little girl who didn't want anyone to know. It was her relatives. Picture in the Alabama. I'm a history book Do you think that as a young person you would imagine yourself doing what you know. No no no no no no no in-in-in-in Joyce Lindh's experience at the ceremony ceremony doesn't resolve everything she's been going through. She still has questions about her history and that of the mayors and when she drives by Chippewa leak signs it still makes makes her uncomfortable to see their signs. Still does a little like Right here in my community. They still have this land Dan as for Darren Patterson he won't take no for an answer from the mayor's he's still trying to set up a meeting with Augustine on the day of the ceremony. Darren told me. He approached Mayor Stimpson and asked him to help. Just bullshit. We need you which out of his dog and pony show the mayor have a relationship and everytime he sees me so as not told him they would bullshit and we need you receive this. You could make some happened on your watch. That hasn't been done before. It doesn't seem clear that Darren's meeting with Augustine would offer definitive resolution Russian to the community at this point. People are doing whatever they can to find peace with the situation all the bell. Ringing and sage smudging in the world won't undo. Do the terrible acts of Timothy Mayor or the continuing impact of enslavement sitting neglect and abuse in Africa town but as the community gathered around the bell there was hope for a new chapter in Africa. Town's history for Neta Henson is another clotilde descendant on the day of the bell ringing. She wore red robes embroidered with gold medallions and a matching golden cap. She weaved Wrigley through the crowd on her daughter's arm greeting friends and acquaintances during during the ceremony. She spoke to the importance of this day. This is truly humbling experience to be able to be here in stand and know you know what we have gone. Through you. Don't call it oppression because oppression would mean that we have been held down. We have risen God sadness given the opportunity to rise again and with the help of our native Americans our ancestors we thank you for a while. This experienced take place after the bell. Ringing for Neta said that it fell to her like the beginning of a new period of history. We've go through our era of segregation. We've gone through Arab integration. And now we're back. To a era of completeness it reminds me of something Sarah said when I told her about the bell story. She told me it sounded to her. Like a parable for the whole communities history how the bell represents Africa towns legacy and the strength of their story. You know it is something that they took with them that was broken and taken from them and now they are slowly holy trying to put it back together. It's taken time taken work. But they're doing as of this recording. The mayor's haven't broken their silence. It's not just them. Many white people in mobile would prefer to let sleeping. Dogs Lie mm-hmm but the descendants and residents of Africa town live with the story every day. They hope their community can rebuild in the wake of so many generations of sitting neglect elect and abused by corporations polluting. Their land it would be cliche to say the community is coming together now but there are so many individuals working hard to ensure Africa town continues to be what it has been a story of strength and resilience as Joycelyn says a tiny town in Alabama with a big history a history. We can no longer ignore when the claw told a ship was first discovered. Joycelyn wasn't sure how she felt about representing this history mystery. She was nervous about people in Mobile. Seeing her as Miss Africa town people stopped her in the grocery store and in the hallways of the school where she works to ask her about the story and sometimes it made her worry she didn't want to attract too much attention sometimes. It made her sick to her stomach with fear. Fear or disgust towards the mayor's but standing in front of the hundreds of people at the ceremony Joycelyn fell grounded by her ancestors and by their mission for her the strength that we need there one time and those few times that I was shamed. Now I'm all over now. Everybody knows you know as you know what they say. What would I tell my twenty one year old self now I would say you don't need to be afraid? You don't need to be afraid or Shane today. Day to answer. Soft again family ghosts is hosted and produced by me. Sam Damon with Vera carruthers. Sarah Shockley Sally Helm Odell Reuben. Jenna Hannam and John Kastner. This episode was reported by Vera with additional reporting from Sarah. Our story editor is Michaela. Bligh our production assistant is Julia. Press this episode was mixed by Evan Arnett and featured original music by Ashley Phillips. Our theme music is by Louis. Garra fact checking by Greta Rainbow Executive producers for season. Three are myself along with Keith Reynolds and Alleata the colon at spoke media special. Thanks this week to carry a Trevor Carson McCain and to the kindred spirits it's our supporters on Patriot. Who helped make our work possible? In addition to add free episodes and exclusive bonus content kindred spirits have actually already heard this this episode. They get to listen to everything we make before anyone else and this week. They're getting a special bonus interview with our producer. Suray Shockley where she tells the full story three of her family's visit to Tennessee. If you have the means please consider becoming a member of the kindred spirits. It's just five dollars a month at Patriotair dot dot com slash family ghosts. We are proud. Creative partners of spoke media find more great podcasts at Spoke Media Dot I o.. Season Season Three continues on January eighth. We'll talk to you then. And thank you for listening to family ghosts. Where every house is haunted Next next time on family ghosts there was some cues. This was GONNA be a very non traditional way. A therapy A few years ago David had death in the family and he was distraught. He couldn't sleep. He wasn't eating. He was smoking way too much weeden. He was desperate to find and someone to talk to who might understand what he was going through. which is how he ended up in the living? Room of acquaint suburban house doing group therapy with an eccentric facilitator. She had blown out red hair. Amethi necklace was in sort of Gauzy. diaphanous closed at first. The meeting was going well but then things started to go off the rails. One of them starts talking about well. You know I mean the visitations or the thing that really keep me going and I'm like what what are the visitations and when she's like. Oh you know how she comes through your Washer and Dryer and then they start talking and she's a Washer and dryer. The night she left. You know the Washer and dryer in the basement turning off on August themselves numerous time. That's still has. She says hello is through the and then another woman's like yeah. We'll for me the lights when the lights go on and off in the hallway that night David went home and tried to go to sleep. I was probably in bed for like ten minutes. Also the white noise machine just went in in came on and I sat up in bed. I said I said Charlie. In episode four of our third season David searches for meaning in the aftermath of a loss that no one else seems to understand. That's coming January eighth right here on family ghosts You're listening to wwl T- Homemade Radio Ghost family. Thank you so much for listening to our show and being a part of what we do today. I need to ask for your help. This is something that will only take five five minutes of your time. Please go to spoke media dot io slash survey and. Tell us a little bit about yourself. It really helps us find advertisers Kaiser's which helps us keep this show and your podcast feed. That's spoke media dot io slash survey. And thank you
Transition 2021 Series: A Gathering StormThe Future of U.S.-North Korea Policy
"Welcome everybody to what should be a very interesting discussion about a subject. That is probably not News nude anybody you know in the last day We could see in washington if you crocuses daffodils poking their way up and i would say another great hardy perennial of washington is what to do about north korea so he we are in the beginning of the biden administration. I think the question is very much going to be on the agenda. Do we knew something new. Do something old do we try to ignore it and hope it will go away. How do we handle. North korea so Joining me today. As i think this very very distinguished panel you ever You should all have their their bios. But i think you'll see they have they bring a strength of different backgrounds And i think we'll have a very full discussion of this decision so I'm going to start with the question of the threat from north korea. Has it gotten less as gotten more Is it something that we should be even more concerned about as we as we look at this as we go through these early months of the early weeks of this new administration. So i'm gonna ask dr. Victor shaw who's a a dina to georgetown s maybe to outline the sort of north korean threat as it is today and maybe suggest whether he thinks we should ignore it or deal with it or worry about something else such as a possibility but north korean effort to gain some attention so a victory asca you how do you assess the threat as we sit here at the end of the war. Well thanks chris. I let me say. I'm very happy to be part of this. The afar far and to be to share the stage with stephanie. Do young and of course master hill. Who i worked with very closely On the six party talks that seems like a long time ago. Now but on. The six party talks As his as his deputy On the delegation In terms of where we are on the threat. I think it's fair to say that President biden has inherited A north korean threat. That it has expanded significantly from where it was four years ago. It's not as much on the front burner as it was for trump in the sense that at least not yet. North korea's agitated like it had done to both president trump. Been president obama at the start but on the ground even though there are currently no missile tests yet or provocations of that nature on the ground. There's no denying that their capabilities have increased over the last four years Everybody's got a different estimate but somewhere around twenty nuclear weapons fissile material for scores more. In terms of capability significant advancements in terms of their long range ballistic missile capability both in terms of fuel solid fuel capability and mobile launch capabilities. And perhaps even more concerning is what they have outlined as their agenda going forward at the workers. Party congress In january in which the north korean leader essentially outlined the ambition for north korea to become a modern nuclear weapons force including Long range solid fuel ballistic missiles launched ballistic missiles unmanned aerial vehicles tactical nuclear weapons The whole range The full spectrum of of a modern nuclear weapons state As your question suggested. I you know this is not something. I think that can be ignored. It's not going to go away I think what we've seen over the past four years indeed over the past three decades ignoring it It will all it only gets worse. The situation only gets worse but of course the problem. Is you suggested chris. Is that finding the right approach to deal with. It is very difficult because so many things been tried. And even during the trump administration you have to give them credit for trying things that had never been tried before and yet we still have not made real progress on denuclearizing. north korea. Stephanie you Are currently fellow at the stimson center at your also working at a project. Thirty north Which is affiliated with the simpson center. But i know you have a lot of experience on various security issues including i think very important perspective you had on the sanctions a question because sanctions is one of those things that you know. It's one of those bad ideas. Time seems always to be on the agenda so i wonder if you could make some comments. One of our mitigation probably our main mitigation strategy with north. Korea is throw the book at them at sanctions in yet Sanctions have a way of being sort of depreciating asset. And i think there's a real fair question as to whether they're they're working North korea's wonder if you could comment on how sanctions are going as a policy instrument. So thank you very much embassador hill. I mean i think that In general our current approach to north korea is in complete disarray. As victories pointed out we have a worrying situation in terms of the capabilities that north korea's been able to develop You know. I think that whether or not you think that the president trump gamble made sense. The net effect has been. We've really given away. Our leverage Fractured the international sanctions regime. We fractured you. Know the consensus this sort of fragile p five consensus that was underlying international sanctions regime and meanwhile north korea continues to advance its nuclear ballistic missile programs. So you know with regard to sanctions as you said. They definitely are appreciating acid. They've really become more of an end in themselves. Rather than a means to get us to a certain place There's a widening gulf at the un on everything from the continent strategic direction of sanctions to the mechanics of implementation We have tensions reminiscent of the cold war. Essentially making that that regime. I mean essentially nullifying its effects We've got no action by the security council on no new resolution since two thousand seventeen which is in sanctions terms because one has to continue to have new resolutions and we have north korea has new capabilities particularly the cyber actor. They've been able to steal upwards of two dollars which really makes some of the sanctions that are aimed at preventing north korea's generation of foreign income. Moot so yeah. I think that those who say that we can just slapped more sanctions on north korea. Indiscriminately You know have to look at what sanctions have gotten us so far and then we need to look at what we need right if we need in order to push north korea. I think it's it's logical to say that we need china and russia on board with any kind of sanctions regime. And do we think that we can get china on board at this point. Given where sino u s relations stand. So thank you very much do you. On camera of fellow at the or a adjunct senior fellow at the new Center for new american security. I know that you've written extensively on the on the north korean crisis and in some of your articles you dress some of the the diplomacy of it and i think what. Stephanie is alluding to more than alluded to which he actually said is. It's tough to get these sanctions. The whole if you have a partners on this here to council really aren't interested in that kind of policy prescription so we have a couple of them Japan we have a. We have russia and china's permanent members. They are also were were members at the six party talks. Certainly victor and i remember have some of the scars from the various disagreements. We had on how how to move forward. How would you assess the diplomacy under trump under president trump. It was about trying sort of one on one Efforts in the past it was much more multilateral with six parties at earlier before that is four parties and so you know what would be your recommendation given that sanctions. Such as they are tend to need partners tend not to be very successful. They're being pursued by just one one country. Thank you so much ambassador. An thank you. See a far for inviting to this to join this distinguished panel. I think you raise the question of the century and how to move forward. And i think it's going to be extremely challenging in tough for the biden administration on basically all fronts For starters we're in a situation where north korea has been refusing return to the dialogue table ever since the end of the hanoi summit basically and even refusing meaningful Working level negotiations and. So the question really is how do you bring them out to the table. And you know tying this into what are the challenges that stephanie has discussed before the us administration and partners and allies have imposed sanctions. He try to bring north korea back to the table. But right now it's difficult to impose more sanctions or perhaps even enforce existing because of the geopolitical dynamics at stephanie has raised the china and russia. But also we've got A south korean government here in south in seoul a progressive government that is also against moore or enforcing existing sanctions But at the same time you know we're we're in a pandemic and so it's almost curious how we can actually impose more sanctions when Korea has basically isolated themselves It's pretty clear through their actions. In the words that these see the coronavirus as the ultimate threat to their survival more so than american nuclear weapons and so Since they have practically closed their border with china ended all trade with china and perhaps even their elicit smuggling whatnot I think the big question is really what more sanctions county place I think some could argue that We could do more on Sanctioning north korea's cyber activities the revenue. That the the gained through cyber hacking and crypto currency I would defer to my cyber colleagues and friends specialists and how to do that. Technically But you know it's really a difficult terrain and you also have a south korean progressive Government here in seoul that would like to resume a peace process much faster and sooner than trying to elicit any meaningful denuclearization measures from North korea and so i think alliance coordination policy coordination among between the us and south korea as well as with japan is going to be extremely tricky especially in light of the difficulties twain tokyo and sold right now and Bitterly asked you think You know the trump administration really kind of engaged on at first of all the I did that. They were going to do essentially a glittering north korea then it turned into spur smothering north korea with a lot of goodwill at singapore and and the question is is there anything of that of the trump administration policy to north korea that this administration are take with it or is it one of those things we should just try to again about. How some therapy and move on. Well i it's a great question it's a. It's a difficult one to answer. chris. I i you know. I think that the idea of holding out the possibility of a legal leader to leader level exchange as part of the negotiation is important In the end right this place is run by one person. And so you gotta talk to that person. you know i i remember and you probably remember well when we did the two thousand five six party joint statement You know an expert based agreement but a written document in which north korea committed in writing to denuclearization. We still got criticism from the press. Because they said you know. Kim jong at that time. Kim jong il is signature wasn't on the document. We didn't have his personal. You know thumbs up on the document and so you know any. Us to go. She was going to be subject to that sort of criticism. Giving it's north korea. So you know the that principle i think is something that can can still be carried forward And you know. I don't think president biden has ruled it out. You know he hasn't. He hasn't ruled it out. Provided there's a real negotiation that takes place in advance. So i guess that's something. The other thing is one hopes that from a north korean perspective. There was something that was learned from having the opportunity to be with the us president on the world stage and that there's something even though it didn't work out and kim jong and had to take that long train ride home from hanoi empty-handed still. I mean you know having been the center of attention with the. Us president in singapore in hanoi you know meeting with the heads of state in vietnam and other including And singapore including the united states. That hopefully this meant something to the north korean leader and that this notion of being part of the international community has has some benefits to it and then also hopefully even though donald trump is definitely not joe biden. Joe biden is not donald trump meeting with the american president face to face. And you know seeing that even even down trump didn't have fangs horns on his head. You know that might that might mean something at least for the north korean leadership but of course you know it's really it's really difficult. It's really difficult to say that you've pointed out that the the sanctions regimes are what they are Really don't work in the long run. So i guess my question on sanctions. Could they be kind of. Could we look at small increments of sanctions relief understanding that it won't be around for long and try to use small increments of sanctions for small increments of denuclearization. I must say when the north koreans showed up in hanoi and talked about Dis- dismantling young. We all know that young beyond is not the total picture of their of their nuclear program may not even be the Blade element of their nuclear program. But still it's a pretty big complex and you know. I thought it was worth more than four or five hour meeting with translation that we had to discuss it. I i thought it was kind of worth going through building by building. What would you do here. What would you do there and then do something in return. I'll be wouldn't be old sanctions regime. Because i think they. The trump administration was very proud of that sanctions regime that they helped put together in the un. But at least try to get some kind of notion of of give and take. So what do you think i mean. I definitely agree that The point of sanctions is to be able to point to the government sanctioned to say these are the things you could do to get out of these right otherwise they're just an end in themselves and we've seen you know with the former myanmar government. When it was sanctioned undoing those sanctions is very difficult and painful just because of the us system in how many redundant sanctions systems. We have but absolutely in an ideal scenario with you know home. Negotiation strategy with our alliances strengthened right in with a common language at least read some of the partners like russia and china that are close to the dprk that would be something we could attempt unfortunately as it did during two previous us presidencies. North korea is likely to provoke this administration through some type of test whether it be nuclear ballistic missile and then. This intern dries administration policy in tough direction. And like i said before i mean. North korea knows that they're able that that sanctions are a wasting asset. If you just read the latest reports. They'll be a report from the panel of experts of the un about to come out any one of these days. Just have a look at them at at how much the the the. The loopholes are huge. These days right like many countries in africa and other places are still confused as to why they're still are sanctions because they remember this thing porn hanoi summits and they're not following these things every so we. We've we've really odd. You know stressed our alliances on the necessary when we're looking forward and we've not been able to keep a coherent understanding with these important governments like russia and china who by the way have hosted a lot of this cyber actors that have come out in the recent Department of justice action which has targeted you know a whole hosted by three individuals that have been been leading his attack so ambassador. I agree in the ideal that that would be something that we do but there needs to be a sense that there's really something that that north korea is gaining from it. Well clear way. I mean the biggest sanction on right now is their own experience with co bid. They're not even They they don't trust any other kind of right. Skeptics on baskin's problem is that with covert were seeing the kind of recent encephalitis of the argument. That people have been making for decades. That i've been trying to go against which is north. Korea is on the verge of collapse in the problem's gonna take care of itself right like that might well be the case but if anything north korea has demonstrated time and time again that they can absorb pain they absorbed punishment and they keep on going so we need to depart from a reasonable assumption. That you know north korea's gonna continue to endure but all of these. Well they're going to be finished with kobe. I really am not convinced by arguments. Let me ask a do on Maybe also ask victor about this You know. I don't know if there's an odds thing in las vegas on whether we might get a north korean Some type provocation is probably some sort of odds there. And if they're not doing it and biggest probably doing it. The csi an octopus somewhere rate. Yeah what do they are. What's the what's the chance of our waking up Tomorrow morning or some morning and finding out they've just tested a new long range. Missile or you know put some went into outer space up. Do only ask you first. Seen what victor things i think. North korea always has i think north korea always has a military imperative to continue testing all the weapons because they need to perfect the technology. Now i think the political timing of it might be a factor for north korean decision-making went to test One in their two factors domestic and international. So one is right now. It seems pretty clear based on the statements that are coming out and the reporting. That's coming out in their domestic media as well that they're really having a hard time economically and so they're they're they're narrowly focused on internal affairs for the time. Being and so i think for now they might lo- But at the same time you know they they do like to display a show of force in some way and try to extract concessions and and attention and so in that sense. They you know clue. I think it's just a matter of time That north korea will continue testing again But you know. I really would hope that they do not conduct. Any sort of test is even short-range ballistic missile test Before the biden administration forms. It's team before it The pulse reviews over. I big mistake for them to do that before for before. Everyone is in place. I did want to very briefly. Just touch upon you know a previous point that was made i think going forward you know when we talk about sanctions relief for what in return. I think a key principle that the administration should stick to and also north korea is proportionate so i'm glad that the trump administration walked away from north korea's offer to give young in exchange for the lifting of the five key security council sanctions. That just was not a proportionate bargain if they had offered young plus for example in a previously undisclosed disclosed uranium enrichment facility outside of young. The perhaps i think we could entertained. A border like perhaps given than a time bound sanctions exemption on something like textiles examples. So so i think really proportionate bargaining has to be a key principle moving forward for both sides in the horse trades but what we saw from the trump administration it was sort of all or nothing and i guess my question is was the young beyond decommissioning. Worth something. I agree not all sectoral us sanctions but i mean could we have come up with a price and say this is. This is what will pay for that. What do you think stephanie. Absolutely we just walked away without even putting putting forward. Any type of a counterproposal. If if the north koreans engage in a provocation they kind of get as chess players would say the tempo they become. They start to kind of control. The what we're all gonna worry about. We're reacting to them in that case so wouldn't they want to see that happen rather than having to react to us sure And i think you know the the data suggests that right i mean. The empirical record suggests that They like to take advantage of that. You know they did it Less than three months after obama took office. They did it three weeks. After trump took office Like to do that and and set the tempo and have us reacting to to them. So and i think that's what everybody is concerned about. We're we're clearly not outside the window. I mean we've only been a month out so we're not outside the window when they could do something although they've been quite all they although they've been quite quiet on the on the previous point About the hanoi. I mean to me. So what's extraordinary about. Half was extraordinarily about hanoi. Is you know. And you know kristie have your negotiating position going in in meets up with the other side you know clearly. There's a gap there and that's when the real negotiation starts and to the extent that it is restrained. It's because we always have to go back to washington to get approval right to do things like this but the thing about hanoi was washington. Was there right. The president himself was there and so if he had been prepared for an actual negotiation. Then you know he could have made you know he could have made a counter offer or practice you've been cracked his briefing book or right exactly cracked his briefing book and not simply watch the video that john bolton had made for him because he didn't wanna read the briefing books but and the same on the north korean site you know if they had been prepared for negotiation to then that might have been possible and so that would have been the place i mean that was the whole point of having the leaders meek right it was like reagan and gorbachev at reykjavik. You have the leaders meet and try to have them figure this out and that was what was missing last thing. I'll on the whole question of you know the clap cysts and all this. I think the point with regard to north korean cova is not the concern about the key about collapsed to me. The real concern is It has to do with the people of north korea whether it's because economic precious from seal border forces more smuggling then becomes a vector for virus transmission and complete complete pandemic inside the country which the public health failed. Public health system cannot control or that the the government starts to undertake because of covid and the sealed border anti market activities that tries to take hard currency out of the hands of north koreans used the market. And then they they clamp down on the people when they resist that. So i'm that's it's really. The human cost is what i'm worried about. With regard to the impact of covert on the country. And what we've seen or heard from condones workers party address. I mean that's exactly. Victor is talking about concern i. It sounds like someone decided to make a u-turn and go back to centralization rather than allowing some sort of quasi markets dial activity it's happening. How long did is economic minister. Last it was About one month. I thank something like that. He was hired in and in january fired at february. So it's it's not an easy job but it's not unlike baseball managers. Let me ask you know. During our time we'd sit there with the because we got like twenty eight minutes. Now we have mentioned the word china. And i during our time on the six parties. I'd sit there and have the chinese Head of their delegation away across. I'd say you know you can solve us. China you can really take this on and you can make a big difference and who would take a drag or two on cigarette and would offer me one. Actually and then he would say all know. This is all up to the americans. You can solve this. So insert one of the great sort of moments of diplomacy. I said we'll maybe the two of us can solve this working together. Well a lot has happened since Since those days and one of the biggest things that's happened is this perception whether we can say whether it's true or not is that we cannot work with china on most things out there including this thing so i i like to ask all three of you. Maybe starting victor. Do you think the chinese are really still committed to the idea that they should be the only nuclear power in asia or are they prepared to kind of left the north korean. String this out forever. So i'm i'm concerned it's more the latter now. Perhaps that was the case before. And you know i do. Think that During the six-party process. I mean you know. One of the i i think. One of the successes of the six-party process was it did really May china stakeholder in all situation and as you mentioned in the example you just gave I think in a sense. They did take it seriously for a period of time. They're responsible stakeholder is that they were trying they were trying to take on that role. But i think given all that has happened since then And in particular the growth of the program. That probably most chinese folks think that it's not. It's not realistic to think that we can get them to give it all up and the real the real issues maintaining stability on the peninsula avoiding collapse or avoiding conflict. But i still think china plays a role. They play a very important role tactically. Because they still have even though the borders coke close if that border ever opens up. They still do. You know occupy ninety percent of north korea's external trade and they can still have an influence in bringing north korea back to the table but as you just described once back at the table right that the conversation on the chinese side moves from will squeeze them a little bit to get them back to the table to. It's all in your hands right the americans and that's what would they used to say right. He used to say to. You know you have to do this right. They wanna talk to you. They don't wanna talk to us. They don't want to talk to the south koreans. They don't talk japanese. They wanna talk to you so you have to meet with them bilaterally in the context of six party. You meet with the bilaterally. Chris and you figure this out right and so they immediately buck passed to the united states. Once they get back to the table yeah. I almost cigarette smoking as a result of that Steph you've seen the chinese action law. You certainly seem them in action terms and trying to forge agreements on our gonna go forward with with north korea. You you shared view that it's it may be at this point a bridge too far. I mean frankly like the way we've acted over the past few years we've raised value for china divided peninsula You know like diplomatic. Outreach has allowed north korea to bring china russia more on side and then has translated those relationships into strategic and economic benefits far beyond like the usual countries that it was dealing with. So we this signer. Us trade war. Japan south korea's falling out the stall us dprk diplomatic process with the failure of hanoi and the lack of clarity and in us policy which has all been to trump as advantage trying to russia's advantage. And so you know. They have become more apathetic about sanctions enforcement. Awad the measures. It's no surprise there. Targeted at china right let alone some countries in southeast asia. Left and right. You know that that sometimes we're betting activity in not cracking down on it so much You know this is one of the reasons that the efficacy of sanctions has dropped. And we've seen in the security council. These days i mean china is playing a really a release sort of related Thankful to to what the us would need to move forward. I just i think that you know. North korea was not front and center on our minds as we just. You ruined our relationship with them young. You've certainly kept your ear to the ground on how the south koreans regard the future this of this process with with north korea. My sense is that there's kind of a a real frustration. Among the south koreans with the north koreans perhaps the us as well as some of the aspects of our alliance with south korea have been kind of gone through the wringer but certainly. There's got to be a sense among south koreans that we really tried with north korean. So we're not getting. we haven't got much back. I mean wait. Could you describe where they are and maybe victory. You want to jump in on this one as well. Well i guess it depends on which south koreans are talking about if we're talking about the moon governments I think they still have a lot more energy left in them. They they really want to step on the gas and get summits going Get a peace process going Within president moons term which ends next may And so you know he really wants to leave behind this Legacy being the peacemaker of the korean peninsula and i think a lot of people that are observers and experts would argue that that's perhaps quite unrealistic with just one year left if you talk to the broader south korean public or or or others who are not in Moons camp You know there's a lot of concern concern. Both criticisms about their own government but also concerns and criticism about the trump administration for not having Had a real strategy not having done enough not having a you know. Push north korea harder and now there are concerns among the broader. I guess policy community in south korea about the biden administration. They as you can imagine there listening and watching very closely to what president biden secretary blinken and other senior officials are saying And already you're hearing grumbles and mumbling about how they're concerned that the administration may not be as serious and put north korea on the back burner and just a final point on china. I echo everything that victor said. Most of what Stephanie said the other. The one thing i would add to. That is that i think. China clearly has loveridge in terms of the power to dial up and down that the sanctions lever on on north korea. You know. I think they really the chinese really need to realize that it's You know the more north korea's nuclear weapons program develops both qualitatively and quantitatively. It really is not a good. It's not it's not good news for for china either That the more they grow that china will also lose leverage and these weapons could actually be pointed at china as well. And i think that's a realization. That means that they need to make if they have not already need to be a chinese. Yes in a meeting or something. Whatever that is whether it's privately publicly. On whatever i mean nearly week like by by virtue of the fact that we're conveying it. They'll do the opposite. Because why would there. You don't have to do everything publicly years right. We're supposed to questions real simple. I just wanted to quit lightning round about all right. We're at the end of Of worrying a biden administration were to do something about three next week. What should they do. Victor assuming no provocation and assuming where we are today. So i would say three things. The first is there should be. I don't know if it's next week but at some point there should be some contact with with north korea just to keep dialogue channel open again. All the data suggests that when we're talking to them they're this less likely to do these sorts of provocations. That's the first thing. The second thing related to china is You know. I think if the united states is looking at its asia policy through the lens of us china's strategic competition. We have to think of a way to lessen chinese influence on the korean peninsula. Because i think china feels like a very strong position on north korea right now and then third related to that is really starting for the for soon for the remainder of the administration Working on a dialogue with south korea to bolster extended deterrence whether that's in terms of strike capabilities or it's in terms of missile defense. That that is good for deterrence goofy lights. It's good terms reposing costs on china. Definitely absolutely. I mean. I would agree with victor that there has to be a communication of some sort otherwise we're basically seething seething the place and i also believe that there needs to be a an elevation of the issue of cyber to like one of the largest issues in like with regard to dealing with north korea writ large so it needs to be reflected throughout the entire policy apparatus in so doing we need to take account of the fact that there aren't easy measures on it that cyber doesn't lend itself to traditional deterrence because you have zero day attacks you can't reveal capabilities because that neutralizes the threat. So there's a lot of different types of thinking and policymakers that are over a certain age. Frankly don't even understand the mechanics. Cyber are so. That would be something that i would also recommend it that there that be taken seriously. I mean i would agree with Victor stephanie i think just the only thing i would add is yes you know convey a willingness to to talk you know. Keep the dialogue channel. Open of course I i just don't think we need to be eager beaver about it either. I think we should just be as a matter of fact about it And on on strengthening our our deterrence posture. I think that's a definite must It's all about how you do. You know we certainly do not need to right now bring back strategic assets. Embalmer flyovers. Right now you can do that. When north korea provokes But you know based on what we're hearing from condolence workers party address and meetings after they're really focused on tactical nuclear weapons and weapons the smaller missiles that will actually be used on the battlefield for war And so i think we need to tailor and strengthen our extended deterrence an deterrence posture To to deal with Those weapons not just the. Icbm's okay. Teagan i think we're ready for questions or so much more to discuss. The probably they'll come out of the cuban as he slightly ladies and gentlemen reminder to ask a question please click on the raise hand icon on your window when you're called on. Please accept the unmet now. Button and proceed with your name. Affiliation and question to view the roster of members registered to attend this meeting. Please click on the link in your zoom chat box. We will take our first question from barbara. Slaven guys Nice to see you chris. Victor and and the two ladies As you know i cover. Both iran end have covered north korea in the past. So my question is this. How did the trump administration's unilateral withdrawal from the j. c. p. o. a. Impact north korea. Do you think that has had an impact on their thinking. And if the us rejoins the jc puree will that help at all or is it irrelevant now to north korea. Thanks so i think three of you would have a view on apple. we just asked. Stephanie how do you think that's absolutely base e read across right Bill they see the there was a huge amount of investment in a deal that was easily. Unraveled i actually tend to to try and steer clear of the iran north korea because in many ways there actually more different than they are similar on one. Being that you know. North korea has nuclear weapons. But i think the north korean always done the reader cross and most of the lessons. They've learned have benefited them very well. In terms of you know being able to create a structure that has allowed them to persist well beyond engro end in continue to develop their their weapons of mass destruction programs. Beyond what we'd ever have. Thought would be possible. Chris chris tonight take. Barbara's question and ask you a question based on. Barbara's question is that allowed in the format essentially passed the moderator question. Yeah so by best. So i i wonder i mean so i mean you really negotiated the last agreement right nuclear agreement. We have with north really. Didn't have an agreement after that and And i wonder myself whether the north koreans are capable of in iran. I mean. I know they want an iran type of nuclear agreement but are they capable of negotiating an agreement like that to the level of detail that exist not that there wasn't any detail in the six party right. There's a lot of detail that that we went into. But if you look at the document right there the jcp a document that was negotiated on the iranian side at a high high political and technical expert level that you know i just don't know if the north koreans are capable of that or Or or it would have to be written for them. i run. I think you're posing the question. Maybe because you know the answer is you. And i saw this they have real trouble fielding a team that could do the sorts of things that were done in that jason peo- and Just you know handling the broad outlines of it you know for all the comparisons iran and north korea. These are very very different countries. would just draw nearly different Historical endowments andrew. I don't think. North korea has some of these these just capabilities of governance that the iranians have i did find occasionally really the north koreans would take something and claim that it was affecting their thinking. When i always felt it was more talking point. They would talk about the demise of qaddafi in libya. I'm not really sure. That's what animated. they're thinking. I think they have a sense that they're special. There's a certain north. Korean exceptionalism if you will and so i i remember when the us right in the middle of our of our Deal with the north koreans Went and told the indians to go ahead. Keep their military program and have a civil nuclear program as well you know the timing was output not ideal and the north korean certainly raised that but I remember talking to kim gate on the north korean. I said look. There's not enough time in the world for me to explain to you the difference between you and india. So don't go there. But i i think your point victor is very important. Which is you know even when we try these working. Groups are as the russian interpreter would say the groups that work and we would talk about this idea of a regional association. The northeast asia peace and security association. And we tried all these things they just they just couldn't they didn't have enough people to to play the game and they didn't have enough negotiators so i think i think capability is an issue and that's why we tried to keep things kind of straightforward with the north koreans and. I always do that when we got into. The issue of really intrusive Verification which we couldn't go forward without the north koreans just couldn't take it they were just too worried about what that would mean and again then we got a lecture on saddam's palaces so they're not without an understanding of what goes on in the world but i think their problems Are not what went on in iraq or libya but rather what went on with their own. put it in inverted commas. Their own bureaucracy. You i would. I would actually. I'm actually skeptical. That north korea would want aj cpa style agreement jc put. Jcp was really a verification deal. And that's not one north korea. North korea does not like verification at all and that does not like transparency. And i think you would know from your own experience in the six party talks but we couldn't even get verification. But even the disablement phase north the north koreans raise lots of issues in the not. Let's you know. Nuclear experts on the ground and access to certain areas and to even talk to north korean nuclear person or scientists and personnel. So that's one and the other reason why i'm skeptical is that the it limits iran's capability yes but you know so far. We're seeing that north. Korea seems to want an actual nuclear weapons program. They don't want just a civil nickel energy programming so in that sense You know perhaps perhaps would want would be willing to entertain like a arms control style type of limits. But i'm very skeptical that they would want to go down to reductions and gave up. Give up nuclear weapons themselves at its. It's perilous to go on the north korea iran tangent. But we've done it so the no. You're absolutely right. But i. I remember the chinese came to us with the idea. Let's want you establish unofficial relations with north korea. The way we did We get with china the seventies so i had to. It's not easy to get people in washington to agree to intersections in pyongyang and in washington but President agreed with secretary rice agree. I met with the north koreans in in berlin. And i said good news. Mr kim We can establish interest sections. You can have an office in washington will have one pyongyang silicate tate. Communication will be able to move along. And i thought at the very least he'd say that's very interesting report back and he just said no right on the spot and i remember. It prompted the Victor at the time to say they seem to want things until they don't but in this case i'm not insure. They wanted it in the first place. I think the problem was You have to you have to kind of check with them and make sure it's really something that they want because you end up doing a lot of Effort and getting nowhere On that so really a very tough and one other thing when we were getting to the point of negotiating the very intrusive verification regime and you recall. We had kept it kind of big for the reasons of victor alluded to which is that the north koreans are just not ready for that sort of thing and we got to the point where we needed a in writing and they'd only let us look at young young and even then a very Can you wait it way. And i remember one north korean said you know if you wanted to start this way and maybe we can expand the scope. But i couldn't. I couldn't sell that in washington that look at me like i become You know kim jong hill or something. So i could not sell the idea that will get people on the ground and then enlarge the scope. It wasn't a worst idea heard of six. The us needs to strategy that content with north korea. Defacto nuclear weapons j. It's not that it's ever going to be formally recognized by the ep in n. P. t. but informally it engaging in diplomacy with basically the entire world is a state that can nuke basically everybody so that's like defacto recognition. Right that the problem with us policies. It refuses to accommodate this reality even as any individual diplomat will admit to you privately that this is the case right. They think that you have to hold rhetorically to full denuclearization because if you don't the world falls apart but that's why we'll never going to get very talking to say that. But i think the north koreans they know the reality. We know the reality all right. Let's go to the so much to discuss. Great we will take our next question from joan spiro. thank you all for. can you hear me. Yes thank you. Offer a very interesting discussion Could you tell us whether japan or russia have played any role in all of this. Are they irrelevant. Interesting question japan russia's role after all we get it with at four than we did it at six. We don't know what the magic will be Next victor where you so. I think they both do play roles in japan's case there they their role is important. I because they're an ally apologize. My dogs barking. I because they're an ally But also because any deal A big part of any deal would be the cross recognition formula japan's normalization of relations with north korea. Which we carry a huge financial price tag which the north koreans i think would be very interested in so i think that's important on russia. You know. I don't know chris feels about this. Might so my. My view on russia is that they can be helpful but at time when you least expect it and The example i like to give here is when Contrary to a lot of opposition in washington we were able to get the united states to agree in writing to say that the united states would attack north korea with nuclear or conventional weapons in writing in the six party joint statement. And you know. Chris said the north koreans had wanted some demonstration of us non-hostile policy and that was about as clear demonstration. As you could give at which point the north koreans again seem to not really care very much and the russians of that point told the north koreans. No you have to look at this seriously as us intentions because we tried to get this from the united states throughout the cold war and we could never get them to say this right and in chris's able to get washington to agree to this so in that sense. They were very helpful but sometimes they can be very unhelpful for example when we were trying to get them to be interested in in non nuclear technology as the trade off and then i think the russians went and did a press conference where they said. Yeah we'd be happy to sell them whitewater technology if the united states didn't want to do that so they can be helpful at times but on helpful at times i always thought that the value of having russia there not where we were in the negotiations but at some point they could be if we ever got to the point where the north koreans were willing to give up dissolved material or something russia having had tremendous experience at arms control would kind of spring into action would know how to handle those kinds of complexities so i always thought They they were not helpful at the stage we're dealing with. But they could be helpful if in the unlikely chance. We got to a first stage and as for japan it. Oh they were the first to have domestic politics right in the middle of this it was. It was tough for them. It was very tough negotiators and There were a lot of critics of the japanese often coming from the south korean. Saying you know We're talking about nuclear weapons or talking about issues like that. But i always thought to myself. How would this go. Japan were not involved. And i always thought to be a lot worse and i felt it would exacerbate. Rfk japan relations which were not good then but they did get worse anyways. So i have been wrong on that. But i always thought that It was better to have the men than out and it would be helpful to alliance relations if we kept him in but certainly we have a number of people. Say why did she go back to. Four power talks rather than rather than six. Okay teigen third question. We will take our next question from robert einhorn. Thank you all excellent discussion. Two questions should be. Biden's administration expressed support for the basic framework adopted a singapore summit in other words balance progress toward denuclearization usdp arcade normalization and peace and security on the korean peninsula. The arcade government would certainly like the by administration to do that. Second question should they What should be done about the upcoming joint. Us are okay. Military exercises There the arcade government defiantly would like the biden administration to adopt the trump approach of agreeing to scale them wear black and so forth. And you know they. They believe that if we went ahead with the joint exercises this would provoke north korea to conduct nuclear tests cernan icy or an icbm range. Missile tests Which which what should be done on both of those issues thank you. You're young. i've recently heard from a lot of people in korea that we don't want you americans to having pushed this rock hill to just have it go right back down to the base of the of the mountain again and Could you americans. They could terms up building on some of these things albeit harsh all but things that singapore and elsewhere And that this is kind of something you hear a lot from the from the south koreans a little frustrated with the fact that we seem to start new every four years. Any thoughts from your vantage point on that and then maybe we'll go to a victim stephanie. On on the other which is what do we do about these military exercises bob. Thanks so much. Great questions. Are i think we should keep the spirit of the singapore statement. Just the spirit of it. I the biggest issue. I have with a singapore statement. The biggest mistake that they made was agreeing to the order of the first three points that appear in that statements. That's exact order. In which north korea wants to negotiate these issues and that's i knew relations than peace and then after all that then denuclearization So in that sense. You know. I i think you know i. I think it was victor. Who mentioned before. This is the first Agreement where we have akin leaders stamp on it. Yes that's important. So perhaps we can reference the singapore statement in some fashion. A future deal And of course keep the elements of the the the top three but Dot order is not the right order in which we should do this. And that's a big victory that A big win that north korea got in singapore not to mention the unilateral cancellation of military exercises If i'm not mistaken i'll have to double check this. But the last. I had heard that the march exercises are going to go on as scheduled. I think the computer based simulation. I think i'll have to double check but the problem. Is you know. North korea has been taking issue for any which way we do this even with computer simulations taken issue with that even though there are no field exercises and so i think you know i. I really don't think that military exercises are the cause of north korean provocations. I think Our joint exercises really. Just give them an excuse to keep testing and so i would really argue against the causality military exercises 'cause provocations and because again as i mentioned before they always end you know this very well bob. They always how the military per imperative to continue testing the weapons. Because he's the they want to perfect. The technology victory the point that when you're talking to the north koreans are less likely to engage in in provocations and indeed most of the six party time when we talked they didn't engage in provocations. I think what shifted though in. Singapore was we made overt -sition to do some things that is hold off on exercises in return for they're not engaging in provocations so the big problem i have with some of what trump did was these were gestures on his part. Starting with the fact that he'd met with kim jong un in the first place ending the deploy ending the the so-called policy advice elation and. I'm not sure what. We got from that stephanie. Maybe you have a different view. I'm very reluctant Being longtime council member. We have one minute left. So i i'm going to defer on this i would agree. You gotta be talking to them. You're not talking Bottom line. I mean we need to talk to our enemies. That's all i'd say victor. You're going ahead the final word here. So i would reference the singapore statement just because kim jong on agreed to denuclearization of the korean peninsula side. reference it that way obviously. It's problematic that there's no definition of denuclearization is there was in the six party joint statement and then on exercising. You know there is a relationship between non-dialogue are exercising and north korean provocations. If we're talking to them in the period before we exercise then they're less likely to provoke. That's that's not me just bloviating. That's based on data that we've collected on this and so i think chris point is right. I mean in singapore. We gave away something that we really didn't need to give away because they would not have provoked as we were talking to them. I think that's Her stephanie's admonition. I think we're on target here for on the hour so up. Ti throwback to you if you we can do another question or declare. This pretty pretty good meeting. As i feel it was yes. Thank you everyone for joining. We will end today's meeting. Well thank you all. It's been bill been a real pleasure and thank you for.
19: The Power of the Universe Part I (Harry S. Truman)
"On April Twelfth Nineteen forty five at three thirty five PM Franklin. D Roosevelt died of cerebral hemorrhage while vacationing in warm springs Georgia. He had been president for twelve years longer than anyone in history so long that many Americans could barely remember another president. And he had led the United States through its greatest economic crisis. The Great Depression and through world, war two the most destructive conflict in world history. four-times the American. People trusted him with the nation's highest office. In those critical years something they had never done with anyone else. The United States had been at war for three and a half years in Europe American and Soviet armies were closing in on Berlin. Nazi Germany was being dismantled inch by inch. American military officials were predicting that the war in Europe would be over in six months. In the Pacific American forces were engaged in brutal combat with the Japanese in the Philippines and an open. Hundreds of American B twenty nine were striking the Japanese homeland with incendiary bombs, killing and burning to death. What would eventually become hundreds of thousands of people? Still. There were few signs of Japanese surrender. Military planners were predicting the fighting in Asia to last another year and a half. At, the highest levels United States had been coordinating with Great Britain led by Winston Churchill and the Soviet Union led by Joseph Stalin to defeat the axis powers, as we covered in episodes, five and six Roosevelt had met with Churchill and Stalin at Yalta back in February, nineteen, forty five to finalize plans to end the war and a shape the postwar world. Since then the Soviets were imposing their grip over eastern Europe including, Poland Stalin promised free elections in Poland, but in the months since he had installed a pro Soviet regime, and had no intention of honoring his commitments. Some Americans began fearing that once the war ended a new conflict between the West and the Soviet. Union was inevitable. This was where the world's stood on April twelfth, Nineteen, forty, five at the climax of one conflict, and at the dawn of another between two unprecedented global struggles. But the one man the country trusted was gone. FDR was now dead. The man, who now these challenges was Roosevelt's vice president, a sixty year old man named Harry, s Truman he'd been vice president for just eighty two days. He was added to the Ticket for Roosevelt's fourth term. He had virtually no foreign policy experience and few Americans knew his name and he was frightened. You wasn't quite sure he was up for the task, but he was. The man destiny had chosen to lead the country at this critical time how he responded to. This challenge is the story of this episode of this American President. Dr? Little past seven o'clock, but two hours after Franklin Roosevelt was dead. Truman was in the Cabinet Room, in the White House as he stood by his wife Bess and his daughter Margaret surrounded by cabinet and military officials. He took the oath of office as the thirty third president of the United States. He was now the commander in chief of the greatest military force. The world had ever seen sixteen million men and women, twenty seven carriers, ten battleships, and countless planes, tanks and guns. FDR's death was a shock to the nation. Millions of Americans wondered whether America could go on without him especially now with so much at stake. And even worse, how could this true and fellow measure up? We in two thousand nineteen might find this overdramatic, but that's because we know the outcome. We know that the allies would go on to win that the war would end in just a few more months, but no one at the time knew how things would play out. Some feared that FDR's death could breathe new life into the axis powers. Some believed that the war could be prolonged and millions more might be killed. Historian. David McCullough wrote that quote too many. It was not just that the greatest of men had fallen, but the the least of men, or at any rate, the least likely of men had assumed his place. Harry Truman was placed onto the ticket because the leaders of the Democratic Party didn't like the previous Vice President Henry Wallace, not necessarily because of anything remarkable about Harry Truman. You can learn more about that in episodes five and six of our podcast. There seemed to be something absurd about the whole thing. Most presidents are chosen after a long election cycle in which the country has a chance to size up the candidates. When there's an international crisis, the candidate's abilities become even more important. But no one really cares about the vice presidency. When people voted for Roosevelt and Truman in the nineteen forty four election. They're really just voting for Roosevelt. But in electing him, the inadvertently put Truman in the position to become president during this crucial time. It didn't help. That FDR. Didn't prepare me all for the job. He didn't include him. In any war strategy meetings or and other meetings general, George Patton lamented. It seems very unfortunate that in order to secure political preference, people are made vice president who are never intended by party, nor by the Lord to be presidents. Truman himself was among those doubters to reporters Truman, said quote. There have been few men in all of history. The equal of the man into WHO's shoes I am stepping I. Pray God. I can measure up to the task. Later that day more candidly, he told the press quote boys. If you ever pray, pray for me now I don't know if you fellows ever had a load of hay fallen you, but when they told me yesterday what had happened I, felt like the Moon Stars and all the planets had fallen on. Just who was Harry Truman? Well, he came from very different pedigree than FDR. While Roosevelt was raised in a wealthy prominent New York Family Truman had far more modest upbringing. He was born in eighteen, eighty, four and raised in Missouri the son of a farmer in his youth. Truman learn to play the piano and developed a lifelong fondness for history. He was voracious reader on anything from ancient Greece to the American civil war. After graduating high school. He enrolled in college in Kansas City, but left after year he then worked. A series of random jobs is a timekeeper at a railway where he slept in camps for hobos. In the mail room of a newspaper and as a bank clerk. Although he studied for a little while in law school, he quit school altogether. He was the last. American president to not have a college degree. True join the National Guard and when America entered World War One. He became a captain of an artillery regiment that was sent to France in nineteen eighteen. It was there that Truman first exhibited. The qualities that would mark his tenures president tenacity in leadership. He transformed his unit into an effective fighting force, and they performed admirably while enduring intense combat during the war, he was a feisty leader while at the mountains and France. He and his soldiers came under heavy German fire, when his men started fleeing, Truman unleashed a foul mouthed tirade that stopped them in their tracks and got them back to fighting. In another instance he led an attack on the Germans that save many lives in the US. Army's twenty eighth. Infantry Division. These were critical experiences in his life, giving him confidence as he pursued a career in public service. When he returned home, he quoted a woman named Best Wallace who he had known since he was six, and she was five. He proposed to her in nineteen eleven, but she turned him down. He was persistent and they finally married in Nineteen nineteen. They eventually had one daughter named Margaret. Soon Trim went into business and opened up a haberdashery, basically a store that sells men's clothing accessories, and fortunately this venture failed when the economy tanked in the early Twenties Truman was bankrupt, but he caught the eye of a local Party boss named Tom Pendergast who was looking for a candidate for public office. While most people didn't see much in Truman to Pendergast, he was an ideal candidate, a veteran who is known for hard work and honesty. He Convinced Truman to run for County Judge Eastern Jackson County in Nineteen, twenty, two, basically being a county supervisor, he won the election, thus Harry Truman began his political career. Pendergast was a typical political boss seen by many as corrupt and power hungry German got a reputation for competence and integrity. He adopted political views in the tradition of Jacksonian democracy, fighting for the interest of rural citizens in common folks against the corrupt establishment. This helped him get elected a US senator in nineteen thirty four. Truman arrived in Washington at the start of the Roosevelt Administration, as it was implementing its new deal policies to deal with the Depression Truman was a loyal Democrat and supported many of FDR's programs, but it was during World War Two when Truman really made a name for himself. He was appointed to chair a special Senate Investigative Committee which became known as the Truman Committee to investigate wasteful defense spending, according to some estimates, the train committee save the taxpayers about fifteen billion dollars, or about two hundred ten billion in today's dollars. By nineteen, forty four Harry Truman was sixty years old, although he was well respected among his colleagues. Most Americans didn't know anything about him. He likely would have retired. As an obscure political figure had not been for the events at the nineteen forty four Democratic convention. That year FDR was running for his fourth term, but he was a sick man. In fact, his doctor told him he would likely not survive a fourth term. especially given the strain of running the war effort and it showed anyone who saw FDR by then already knew that he was in poor health. He was too thin for his clothes. His jaw often hung open, and his skin was Pale Grey Democratic Party leaders had a hunch that he would die in office. The problem was that the incumbent vice president was a man named Henry Wallace. who was far too liberal for most of the Party and who was a bit of an oddball, he had a history of engaging in spiritual mysticism and had poor political skills. He was often feuding with other members of the administration, but Wallace was popular with the liberal rank and file enduring the convention, there was a push to renominate him for vice president, but the party bosses engineered for him to be removed from the ticket in his place. They found someone with few enemies Harry Truman. The evidence indicates that Truman had sought the office. Had other plans. The Roosevelt Truman ticket won that November in Harry Truman became vice president in January nineteen, forty five. Within three months, Roosevelt was dead and the former Haberdasher a man with no college degree was the commander in chief of the United States during a pivotal moment in world history. The new president now had to confront the growing conflict with Joseph Stalin a man who had ruled the world's biggest country with an iron fist for about two decades, American advisors were getting more concerned about the Soviet Union. By taking over Eastern Europe and installing pro Soviet regimes in countries like Poland, it was violating the Yalta agreements. Many Americans felt that Roosevelt had been too lenient on Stalin at Yalta. Almost all of Truman's major advisers had served Roosevelt for years, and gave Truman different advice on how to handle stolen on one side was averill Harriman America's ambassador to the Soviet Union. He was wary of Russian aggression and felt the United States might have to resist any expansionist moves, but he also believed that cooperation was still a possibility. After all the Americans and the Russians had been cooperating for years against the Nazis. It was better to try to continue this cooperation and not rock the boat too much especially, since any daylight between the allies might encourage Germany or Japan to continue the fight on the other side was secretary of the Navy James. Forrestal who believed that the conflict between America and the Soviets was inevitable. He therefore felt the Americans. Americans had no time to lose that. We had to confront the Soviets now before they strengthened their position in Europe to Secretary of war, Henry Stimson an army chief of staff George Marshall Forestalls. Idea was sheer lunacy after all Germany and Japan still hadn't surrendered, those nations still had to be defeated. Did we really want to go to war against the Soviets when the Nazis and the Japanese were still holding out? The Germans might've been on the ropes, but the conflict with Japan was fierce so fierce that the Americans hoped the Soviets would enter the war against Tokyo. FDR had asked Stalin to the Pacific theater and stolen had agreed to do so after the Germans were defeated. American strategists hope that this would convince Japanese that. They had no chance to win. Perhaps the work had an sooner with Soviet help. Thousands of American lives might be spared. Besides stimpson felt that the Soviet incursion in eastern Europe was less about domination and more about establishing a buffer zone for their own security. They had just been invaded by Germany twice in the past thirty years I during World War One, and then during World War Two both times, leading to absolute catastrophe and millions of Russian deaths in Stimpson's is. It wasn't unreasonable to expect that the Soviets were taking action to prevent another invasion from Europe. These were the immediate decisions that the new inexperienced president faced in his first months in office decisions that involve the fates of millions of people around the world on one hand. Truman was being told to stand up to the Soviets that they were potentially our next adversary on the other hand. He was told that we needed their help in the war against our current adversaries. If he pushed the Soviets too hard, he might jeopardize the alliance against. Against the Axis powers, and if the Nazis and the Japanese had a sense that the allies were quarreling with each other, it might encourage them to fight on could prolong the war on the other hand, allowing the Soviets to impose their will, over eastern Europe could signal to the Soviets that the Americans were unwilling to enforce the altar agreements. It could be seen by Stalin as a sign of American weakness in emboldened him to undertake further aggression. Give the Soviets, a stronger hand in the postwar world, and it could mean sacrificing the freedom of millions of people to the altar of. Isn't that what happened with? Hitler didn't the West. Try to appease him in the hopes that he would stop conquering territory and subjugating millions of people on Z tyranny. It was quite a dilemma for four. Haberdasher Harry Truman knew he had to walk a tight rope here. He knew he had to maintain the alliance with the Soviets to defeat the access, but he also had to send a message to Stalin. He decided upon a middle course. He would be firm against Moscow and demand that they fulfil their agreements, but not too firm that it would splinter the alliance he still. Still hoped the Soviets would make good on their promise to enter the war against Japan Truman had his first chance to apply his new approach at a meeting with the Soviet foreign, Minister Viacheslav Molotov on April twenty third during the meeting Truman was forceful in called Russia out for breaking the Yalta, agreements Molotov claimed that the Soviets were justified in occupying Poland because the polls had worked against Russia during the war. In? Response Truman scoffed at him. Accusing him of just spewing propaganda Molotov was taken aback by Truman's candor and told him quote. I have never been talked to like that in my life according to Truman, he founded with quote. Carry Out your agreements and you won't get talked to like that. The new president was setting a new tone for American policy towards the Soviets two days later on April twenty fifth. German had a meeting with Secretary of war Stimpson by then. was a true elder statesman. He was seventy seven years old and his first stint in the cabinet back in nineteen eleven thirty four years earlier, he had been secretary of state under President Hoover and secretary of war for presidents, Taft and Franklin Roosevelt. He had spent the previous four years running the war effort, but this meeting was perhaps the most important one of his entire career. He gave Harry Truman a memo. It started with the following sentence quote within four months we shall, in all probability have completed the most terrible weapon ever known in human history. One bomb of which could destroy a whole city. The memo revealed the existence of what would be known as the Manhattan project and its goal to develop nuclear weapons. The program was begun by President. Franklin D Roosevelt years earlier after he received a letter from fame, scientists out of nine Stein warning him that the Nazis were trying to build an atomic bomb. STIMPSON's memo said that no other nation would be able to construct a similar bomb for a few years, and it warned in the gravest terms that quote the world in its present state of moral advancement, compared with its technical development would be eventually at the mercy of such a weapon. In other words, it said quote, modern civilization might be completely destroyed. You wonder what Harry Truman was thinking. In that moment he had been born in eighteen, eighty, four in the area of horse and Buggy when railway was the fastest mode of transportation before the commercialization of automobiles, the advent of flight, the creation of as radio's before Einstein discovered relativity. You live to see all of those milestones throughout the greatest Ariza technological achievements in history. And here he was learning that mankind specifically, his country was on the verge of something, even more momentous it was about to harness the power of the basic building block of the universe that of the atom. It was doing it for the purposes of war. It might unlock for mankind more power than it ever had before. It was a possibility that was both promising an unsettling in an age of ever increasing advancement. It must have struck him. That mankind was entering a new era the nuclear era it may have crossed his mind how that era would turn out with likely rest on his shoulders on a man of such humble beginnings. Stimpson later said that Truman discussed the possibility that the bomb could alter human history, but focused on the more immediate possibility that it could end the war. With. That Truman Stimpson to form a committee to advise Truman on just. What's do with this terrifying new weapon? Events in Europe moved quickly on April twenty. Eighth Benito Mussolini the Italian dictator who fought on the side of the axis was executed just two days later on April thirtieth Adolf. Hitler committed suicide on May Second Berlin felt a Soviet forces, and on May seventh came the news millions waited for German forces had surrendered. The European war was over. President Truman announced the news at a press conference the following day, which just happened to be his sixty first birthday. President, Truman announced the official surrender. Solemn. But Glorious Hour. I wish that Franklin D Roosevelt. At live to see this day. General. Eisenhower informs me. That the forces of Germany have surrendered. To the United Nations. The flags of freedom fly all over Europe. For this victory we join offering our thanks. To the Providence which has guided and sustained us? Through the dark days of adversity and into light. Much remains to be done. The victory one in the West. Must now be one in the east. The whole world must be cleansed. The evil from which half the world has been free. United the peace loving nation. Have demonstrated in the West. that their arms on stronger five farm. Then the might of dictator. Or the tyranny of military cliques. That once called US saw and we. The power of our people to defend themselves against. All Enemies. Will be proved in the Pacific war as it was proved in Europe. With the war in Europe over, it looked like the allies could now focus exclusively on Japan, but Winston. Churchill was worried what this could mean for Europe as the Soviet strengthen. It's grip on Eastern Europe and took over more Germany. He worried about the United States, leaving Europe too quickly. Only America could serve as a counterweight to the Soviets if it left. Stalin might be able to conquer the rest of the continent. Europeans would have been liberated from one Taliban -Tarian dictator only define itself under the yoke of another. He fared to that America and Britain's bargaining position with stolen could diminish in the event of a pullout, so churchill began sending Truman messages, encouraging him to maintain forces in Europe, but Truman still had awarded fight in Asia. He faced the dilemma. What was the right balance of troops to keep Europe safe from the Soviets, but also enough to defeat the Japanese Asia. Truman also wanted to show the Soviet Union that the United States would act in good faith that it would keep its commitments at Yalta. Even know. He hoped to be firm on the Soviets, he still held out hope that they could work together in the postwar world, so in early, June, nineteen, forty five, he decided to withdraw significant number of American forces in Europe descended Japan. General Dwight D, Eisenhower who had masterminded the invasion of Normandy a year earlier greed with his decision. At this point you get the sense that Truman was really hoping to work with Stalin in the same way that FDR did. Yes he had given Malta vists earned talking to, but he felt that cooperation was a real possibility. In fact in a note on June seventh, nineteen, forty, five Truman wrote quote I'm not afraid of Russia. They've always been our friends I. can't see any reason why we should always be. At the same time. Truman had no illusions about stolen the man who had butchered millions of his own citizens, whether via purchase or through famine induced policies in the same note, he wrote of Stalin's use of concentration camps, and that the Soviet government quote is no different from the czar or Hitler. But I don't care what they do. They evidently liked the government or they wouldn't die for it I. Like Ours, so let's get along. To some this is proof. That Truman was naive, but to others he was being realistic about who America had to work with in a world where totalitarian governments where reality. Truman would later be criticized for being soft on communism in the same way FDR was, and while they're valid arguments for this in important to remember that Eisenhower and George Marshall to felt that working with the Soviets at this point was possible. Perhaps, it was because they felt America needed Russia. Against Japan, they desperately wanted Russian help to reduce the amount of American casualties in the Pacific Theater. Or maybe it was because they had spent the last few years working with Soviet military officials against the Nazis forming a bond during the grueling experiences of war. Either Way Harry Truman would usher in kind of dualistic policy towards the Soviets one that his successors would follow on the one hand Truman would talk tough against Communists, but on the other hand at the risk of looking like an appeaser, he would look to opportunities for cooperation. The atomic bomb, of course change the calculus here from late April to July nineteen, forty-five, a series of meetings and debates took place at the highest levels of the American government that explored the implications of nuclear technology of course. The United States didn't have the atomic bomb yet. It hasn't been tested, but scientists were confident that they were almost there. If they would be able to pull it off the entire strategic landscape, the whole world which shift. You have to think about the context. Understand how the people at the time perceived the development of the bomb. For Harry Truman the main goal was ending the war, everyone wanted to end the war. You have to remember what people at the time had been through especially the soldiers. For the previous six years, the world had been engaged in a war that involved brutal fighting, but this wasn't just any war. It was one that was waged by totalitarian dictators by men with no regard for human life like Hitler Mussolini and the Japanese War Cabinet to say nothing of America's. Joseph Stalin these dictators had waged total wars against whole populations. Civilians were treated as combatants. Atrocities were perpetrated against men, women and children. Cities were bombed out. Villages were burned to the ground. Tens of millions of people had been killed the entire European continent, as much of Asia had been laid waste. Almost all of Western civilization, and a lot of eastern civilization were in shambles. The United States and the allies were fighting enemies that refused to adhere to the boundaries of civilized warfare. They could also force their own armies populations to endure misery that stretched the capacity of human suffering. And Japanese soldiers and their civilians were willing to endure extreme levels of agony and sacrifice, often willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. These versions that were willing to risk national suicide rather than surrender, so the allied powers found themselves in the position where they might have to inflict the maximum level of pain to force their enemies to capitulate. And think of what this all meant for an American soldier. Now I'm not trying to compare this with the suffering of that British or Russian or Polish soldiers. It's a well known fact that American casualties were several orders of magnitude lower than those experienced by other nations, but war is still wore. It still has a cost for everyone involved. The Americans had their own perspective on the war. Invasion of Normandy on June sixth, nineteen, forty four was the greatest amphibious invasion in history after days of bloody fighting, the allied force broke through and liberated. France Hitler had surrendered, imagine the euphoria that erupted from that news. Million celebrated the end of the war in Europe, but Japan was still holding out. Thousands of soldiers were returning from Europe after surviving the war against Hitler and yet many of those same soldiers were now preparing to be deployed to the Pacific imagine being one of those soldiers. You adjust survived the Nazi war machine, but now you're being told to repair to be sent to another perhaps even more horrific front. At that very moment, American service members were fighting in the battle of Okinawa. You can't understate just how ferocious that fighting was the Japanese, both soldier and civilian hitting caves and fought to the last man, the unleashed waves of kamikaze attacks even drafted middle school boys to the front of the line. As the Americans Japanese clashed for every inch of the island. Bodies piled up on both sides as they decomposed. They were covered in maggots. It was hell on earth. In less than three months. The Americans suffered over eighty thousand casualties while the Japanese suffered over hundred thousand. Some estimates indicate that there were one hundred thousand civilian casualties in Okinawa. You have to also remember that the allies had been firebombing both the Nazis and the Japanese these bombs were designed specifically to start firestorms that would spread out and burn down whole cities, and they were targeted toward civilian areas, although the Americans tried not to bomb civilians early in the war, it became harder not to attack them, because wore manufacturing occurred near Japanese residential areas starting in the middle of nineteen forty four American B, twenty nine conducted raids over the Japanese homeland on March, ninth and Tenth Two Hundred Seventy Nine B. Twenty nine's dropped sixteen thousand tons of explosives, including napalm bombs that burned sixteen square miles of Tokyo to the ground. About one hundred thousand Japanese are estimated to have died. It's hard to read these things without wincing at the hellish realities of war on one hand, there's no celebrating the enormous destruction of life, especially civilian life. They're photos of bodies that have been burned so thoroughly during the firebombing beyond recognition. But at the same time, the Americans felt such actions were necessary for reason. Whether you agree with it or not? They did it for a reason. They had heard of the atrocities. The Japanese had committed throughout Asia specifically in China and in the Philippines. These atrocities made no distinction between military personnel and civilians, the involved mass rapes and killings they involve babies being bayoneted and tossed into the streets. The involved unspeakable torture POW's for the Americans. The shock of Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was still fresh, as was the treatment of POW's under Japanese control for. For them. A nation that was guilty of such atrocities forfeited the right to civilized warfare, even more frightening to American military officials was the fact that Japan showed little to no desire for surrender. Despite the firebombing rates, Japanese morale did not seem to Wayne Okinawa in particular was fresh in their minds. They're the Japanese fought to every last person. No matter how dire their situation was didn't seem that anything. Even the most extreme amount of pressure could force the Japanese to surrender. In this context American officials began planning the invasion of the Japanese islands. It was to be called. Operation Downfall and had had a two phase plan. The first phase would commence in November with an invasion on the southern most island of Japan Kyushu. The second phase would start in March nineteen, forty six with an invasion of Honshu the main island of Japan. It would begin with an aerial bombing campaign. Beyond what anyone ever seen up to that point it would exceed. The number of bombs dropped against Germany. During the previous several years followed then by a land invasion, the American military estimated a quarter of a million casualties, secretary stimson feared the actual number might be one million think about that for a second anywhere from a quarter of a million to a million casualties, casualties incurred possibly in horrific hand to hand combat, fighting for every inch of territory. Until then the United States had incurred about four hundred thousand deaths so for American planners. An invasion of Japan meant that the worst might yet be to come for those planners. The atomic bomb represented away. But given the loss of life, the Japanese had already incurred. Would it guarantee their surrender? Stimpson and his committee, the s one Committee met several times in the spring and summer of nineteen, forty five. Their job was to develop recommendations for the president on the use of the bomb. Stimson knew the importance of what they were doing. He impressed upon his fellow members that the bomb was not just quote a new weapon merely, but as a revolutionary change in the relations of man to the universe and feared it might be quote the doom of civilisation. The bomb was not something they took lately given what they knew about. The Japanese stimpson felt nothing short of quote. A tremendous shock could carry convincing proof of our power to destroy the empire. He felt that quote. Such an effective shock would save many times the number of lives both American and Japanese that it would cost sometimes when I hear people debate about whether we should have used the bomb. It seems to them that the choice was between using the bomb, not using the Bob, but I think that this rendering is a bit incomplete. The choice was actually between using a bomb that would kill thousands or hundreds of thousands, of Japanese, relatively quickly or commencing an invasion, which could mean the death of hundreds of thousands more maybe even millions in the ugliest drawn out combat. The world would get see. With the bomb, you had the hope that the war would end sooner in invasion. You could expect that the war could last another year if not longer and could lead to hundreds of thousands of American deaths, it was not an option between good and bat. It was one between bad and worse, and if you just lived through the worst war in history, would you not have considered using it especially if you knew the cruel methods, the Japanese us in the war. The other question that came up was whether or not it would be possible to use the bomb without actually killing anyone that is demonstrating the bomb to the Japanese in the hopes that they would surrender, so we wouldn't have to actually use it on them. Now this is where the argument gets more complicated, and there are very valid views on both sides, but stimpson's committee ultimately ruled against this option the reason they felt that it was too risky. The committee members believed that a demonstration might not have the same impact might not create that quote. Tremendous shock that an actual attack would have. If the Japanese had surrendered after the Americans killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians through firebombing. Would they surrender if they witnessed preplanned demonstration? and. There was another fear that the bomb might not work. They hadn't yet tested the bomb. If the bomb for whatever reason failed during the demonstration, it would be a national humiliation. It would embolden the Japanese further would have the opposite effect of prolonging the war, and it wasn't as if the United States had multiple bombs. They were still manufacturing the first few as Oppenheimer said quote, we can propose no technical demonstration likely to bring an end to the war. We see no acceptable alternatives to direct military use. It should be noted that not everyone agreed with the committee's recommendation. One of Truman's advisers, John McCloy suggested that America give the warning to the Japanese about the bomb. Tell them what the bomb could do. He also brought up a topic of importance to the Japanese that the United States should promise the Japanese that they could keep their emperor. It was assumed by many if the Japanese lost their leaders, including the emperor will be. Be Tried and may be executed for war crimes, perhaps if America would let the Japanese, keep the emperor, the man they considered a God. They might surrender sooner if America did this. If it warn them, and let them keep the emperor, American might have a stronger moral position than if they ended up using the bomb at least America could say that they had warned the Japanese German heard out McCloy but made no further decision. At this point, the Japanese hadn't given any sign of capitulating, but there were some signs of a peace faction within the government in Tokyo. Their Foreign Affairs Minister Shigenori Togo send a message to the Japanese Ambassador to the Soviet Union floating an idea that the Russians might mediate an end to the war, but then ambassador responded saying the Russians weren't interested at all. In ending the war, an affirmed the demand, the Japan surrender. Tokyo then message then ambassador not agreed any promise for unconditional surrender historian David. McCullough writes at these. Exchanges were intercepted by American intelligence officials and sent. President Truman we do not know what the president thought about them. While all this was going on Truman was preparing for his first major tests. On the world stage. In the previous four years, the leaders of the Allied nations had met several times to discuss planning the war in the postwar world. Obviously, the most famous of those meetings was the Alta conference will the allies were playing to meet again this time in July in Potsdam? Germany and Truman would be taking President Roosevelt's Place Pasta. Them was a city near Berlin, so on way, there Truman got the see the newly conquered capital city. What he saw was absolute destruction, a city laid waste by Allied bombings the result of total war. The meeting with last from July seventeenth to the beginning of August, the were three big issues to talk about the I was the future of Eastern Europe. Poland as I, said earlier, the British and the Americans were hoping for free elections in Poland, but that was looking unlikely as the. Soviets tightened their grip. Second was the future of Germany. This was the nation that was at the center of both World Wars. The victors wanted to ensure that Germany would never threaten them again. Back at Yalta it was agreed that Germany would be dismembered into zones of occupation with America Britain France and the Soviet Union claiming different zones and third was finalizing Soviet entry into the war against Japan. Which Stalin had promised at Yalta for Truman who had an idea of how costly a Japanese invasion would be. This was his top objective. You can imagine what Truman was to have been thinking at this time FDR Churchill and Stalin were larger than life figures who had long been on the world stage in here was Truman the accidental president, the new kid on the block and he had almost no foreign policy experience, the thought of going toe to toe with these men must have seemed like dining pass. He later admitted to his wife that he was terrified. But as impressive as these men were, they were only human, and that was clear to Truman immediately after meeting them. When Truman I met Churchill at the conference. He admitted that he was quote a most charming and very clever person. But Truman believed he saw through the charm quote. He gave me a lot of hooey about how great my country is I'm sure we can get along if he doesn't try to. Give me too much soft soap. and. When trueman met Stalin, he noticed something that most people even today don't know about him. He was short. Thanks to Soviet propaganda, most of our images portray Stalin as a man of intimidating impressive stature, but in reality he was about five foot six. The ruthless totalitarian leader of international communism was as Truman called him quote a little bit of a squirt. You? Think about how Napoleon gets a lot of grief for being short when he was five foot seven, which was about average for Frenchman back then. During the rest of the Potsdam Conference the Allies reaffirm their plan to divide up Germany into occupation zones. Although Truman and Churchill Stalin on Poland. The fact was that the Soviets were in control of Poland and the government they impose. There was there to stay. For Truman and Churchill the only way to change things in Poland was to use force to expel the Soviets from Eastern Europe and after years of war. No one was willing to do that. Around this time, an event occurred. That changed the world. At Five, twenty nine am on July sixteenth. A flash of light was seen in a desert in New Mexico. It came from an explosion the equivalent of twenty thousand tonnes of TNT. Desert sand, instantly melted, and the shock wave traveled over hundred miles away within minutes. A mushroom cloud had risen almost eight miles. United States had successfully detonated the first atomic bomb in history. Two days later at the Potsdam Conference Drain received word of the successful test. It was the news that he had been waiting for the president and his advisors knew that the world had entered a new era the atomic age. The genie was out of the bottle. Whatever the implications of this in the short term, it meant a possible end to the war against Japan using it could make an invasion of the Japanese home islands unnecessary. It could save American lives. Heck, some of the Americans thought that it could save Japanese lives, too. And, it could give some ancillary benefits. It might even give Truman leverage in the negotiations especially against the Soviets. I mean America alone had the nuclear monopoly. Stimson wrote that Truman's demeanor at the conference quote tremendously pepped up and that it quote gave him an entirely new confidence. There is no evidence that Truman seriously considered not using the bomb. It seems he wanted to avoid an invasion as much as possible. McCullough notes that Truman was among the very few presidents in the twentieth century to have actually experienced combat on the ground as he did in world. War One. There, he got a taste of the vicious and feudal trench warfare that characterized the war. He knew what that kind of combat would entail. He got estimates from the military that an invasion would result in a quarter of a million to a million casualties. He believed that the Japanese would fight every last person which they demonstrated at you Jima and Nana. In his. Is this left him no choice but to drop the bomb. He felt so strongly that it was almost not really a decision. His British ally Winston. Churchill later wrote quote, the decision whether or not to use the atomic bomb to compel the surrender of Japan was never an issue. There was unambiguous automatic unquestioned agreement around our table, nor did I ever hear the slightest suggestion that we should do otherwise. While at the conference, Truman decided to mention the development of the bomb to Stalin which he did in the Vegas terms. One can speculate the impact Truman. Hope that it would have on the Soviet dictator. Truman told him that the united. States had quote a new weapon of unusual destructive force. Perhaps the president was hoping for some interesting response, some slight hint of concern. If that's what he hoped for. You would end up being disappointed. When Stalin heard the news, he played it cool. He more or less just shrug it off. It was almost as if he didn't care. He didn't ask anything more about the new weapon. He just made some side comment that he hoped that it would help against the Japanese. Truman was puzzled, but looking back with what we know now it makes sense. Stalin was already well aware about the bomb and the American nuclear project Soviet spies were well entrenched in the United States one of those men, a man named Klaus. Fuchs was involved in the Manhattan project and had supplied Moscow with information about its progress. At any rate on July twenty sixth, the Potsdam Declaration was released. It was designed for ambiguity. Perhaps give the allies flexibility in dealing with. After the war. It also specified unconditional surrender, but there was a subtle change of language. That the Japanese armed forces, not necessarily the nation would be required to surrender. Perhaps it was to provide leeway for the country as a whole, perhaps allowing them to maintain their emperor. The declaration made no mention of the emperor specifically. It also promised that the alternative facing Japan was quote prompt and utter destruction. Some scholars today interpret this as a warning about the atomic bomb. The Japanese, ignored the declaration. U. S.. Aircraft dropped millions of leaflets with the Declaration on the Japanese homeland. By July Thirty First Truman gave the United States military final approval to use the atomic bomb against Japan. Then he headed home on a ship called the USS Augusta. Truman's top advisors including Bolan and Heyrman gave the president high marks for his performance at Potsdam. According to Bolan quote. He was never defeated or made to look foolish in debate. It wasn't a bad performance for someone who had virtually no preparation in international statesmanship. On the way back Truman spent some time with members of the press. On August third aboard the Augusta, he chatted with a small group of reporters that he specifically selected. Sherman felt that he could trust them anywhere else in the press. During their time together, Truman dropped a bombshell so to speak. He mentioned that the United States had the atomic bomb and that its use against Japan was pending. I wonder what those reporters were thinking when they heard this, especially since they were men, whose professions were based on being the first to get big scoop and publish it for the world to see. They were among the few in the entire world to know about this momentous bit of information. Back in Potsdam Truman, had been giddy over the prospect of using the bomb to end the war, but now things began to sink in. As. He returned home. He was according to some reports a bit more grave. Sometimes, I've heard people describe Truman as a man who didn't understand the significance of dropping the bomb. I'm not so sure. He, knew he had an awesome responsibility, and he brooded over its consequences, united, press reporter. Merriman Smith wrote quote he was happy and thankful that we had a weapon in our hands, which would speed the end of the war, but he was apprehensive over the development of such a monstrous weapon of destruction. Over the next few days, Smith described Truman's mood as tents. On Eight fifteen, a M August sixth, nineteen, forty-five, an American B, twenty nine bomber named the Nola gay dropped a nuclear fission device, nicknamed little boy over the city of Hiroshima. Moments later it detonated about nineteen hundred feet above the ground, releasing sixteen thousand tons of TNT. In seconds about sixty to eighty thousand people lost their lives, men women, children, the elderly soldiers and civilians. The fireball that erupted from the blast is estimated at over ten thousand degrees Fahrenheit. To give you some idea. This lava can reach up to two thousand degrees Fahrenheit. The temperature were rock melts. NANOSECONDS after the explosion, human beings were incinerated instantly. Most of them had no idea what was coming. The shadows left imprint on the ground. The flash generated from the bomb itself, not just the explosion, but just the flash of light released was hot, enough to burn human skin and retinas from miles away. The blast of the bomb rippled from ground, zero flattening buildings and shattering glass people were either crushed by concrete or struck by shards of glass and debris all over their bodies. Neutron and gamma radiation pulse aided from the fireball, exposing human beings to lethal doses. A later us. Government report estimated that in one instant little boy released the same amount of explosive firepower as two hundred twenty twenty nine bombers, carrying twelve hundred tons of incendiary bombs, four hundred tons of high explosive bombs in five hundred tons of anti personnel fragmentation bombs. A few years ago I went to Hiroshima to see the site and the Peace Museum near ground. Zero that commemorates the attack. To stick out in my memory. The I was a gravestone marker that had survived the bomb's detonation. It was on a side street near Ground Zero, and it featured the marble figure of an ancient Japanese deity sitting on a marble platform. You could just go up to it and touch it. s pretty amazed that you could touch something that had survived the bomb. You could see the shadow of the marble figure burned onto the platform and see how the rest of the surface had been burned off by the heat of the bomb. I thought about how that Gravestone Marker had sat there on the morning. Of August, sixth, nineteen, forty, five surrounded by thousands of people who had no idea of their own impending death in there. It was the day for anyone to just look at in touch. The second thing that struck me was the peace museum in Hiroshima. The artifacts that were there. There were twisted bicycles that survived the blast. There were large steel doors that had been warped by the force in the heat of the bomb crumpled up as if they were aluminum foil. There were packs of glass bottles that had been melted and fused together and looked like glass honeycomb. There were strips burn material. They look like burnt paper, but when you read about them, it turned out that they were burned. Remains of human beings, sometimes schoolchildren burn pieces of flesh skin fingernails maybe burn pieces of clothing that hit infused with human skin. There were long slabs of concrete, some of which had shadows etched on them. Shadows of Japanese people were burned onto the ground. And we haven't even talked about the suffering that would result from the bomb. The stories of people walking like. With their burnt skin, hanging off them, the stories of those who somehow survived or burned beyond recognition of those who would slowly die agonizing deaths of the next few days, months and years, because of their burns, their wounds, and the radiation that had all their cells. The story of those who badly burned and dehydrated, rejoice when they saw rain fall from the sky. But had no idea that it was highly radioactive. In the weeks months and years ahead, hundreds of thousands more people would suffer or die from the after-effects. Harry Truman never imagined that he would make the decision to unleash this level of destruction on anyone. He never asked for it. He didn't even know about the bomb until just a few weeks earlier. But the revolutionary power of the bomb itself the level of destruction and human misery it released what it meant. The giant technological leap that it symbolized all of these things would now forever be associated with Harry Chairman. He got news of the detonation at noon on the sixth as his ship near Newfoundland The message from Secretary Stimson reported quote results clear cut successful in all respects visible effects greater than in any test. Another message came in which said quote I reports indicate complete success. Truman was overjoyed. To a military officer, he said quote. This is the greatest thing in history. As news spread throughout the ship. There was a sense that the war might really end soon. That day, President Shri read a statement to the American people announcing the dawn of a new age. A short time ago and American airplane dropped one bomb on hero Shema. And destroyed its usefulness to the enemy. That bomb has more power than twenty thousand tons of T. N T. The Japanese began the war from the Air at Pearl Harbor. They have been repainted many phones. And the end is not yet. When this bomb where we have now added a new and revolutionary increase. In destruction to supplement the growing power of our armed forces. In the present farm, these bombs are now in production. And even more powerful farms are in development. It is an atomic bomb. It is a thing of the basic power of the universe. The first from the Psalm draws, his power has been loosed against those who wealth war to the Far East. We are now prepared to destroy more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise. The Japanese have in any city. We shall destroy their dogs, their factories and their communications. Let there be no mistake. We shall completely destroy Japan's power to make war. It was to spare the Japanese. People from utter destruction. that. They also made them July. The Twenty six was issued at Potsdam. Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms. They may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power, as they have not yet seen, and with the fighting skill of what they are already well aware. News of the Hiroshima bomb swept across the nation in the world. Soldiers and their families celebrated the possibility that it might mean the end of the war, especially, those who had survived the warning Europe and we're expecting to be deployed to Japan. But others feared what it all meant. Mankind had now reached a new threshold of destruction. The world now had a weapon that could destroy whole cities. Now that the atomic genie was out, there was no telling. WHAT THE FUTURE HOLD! Remember the people at the time had lived through the worst worn history and many of them had lived through World War One. They had lived through the two most destructive wars ever. Many recalled how the world's powers tried to prevent another world war from happening after the first one and they had failed miserably. Who is to say the Third World War wouldn't happen especially with the Soviet, union challenging the West and now humanity learn how to unleash the powers hidden in the atom. Admiral William Lahey top advisor to Presidents Roosevelt and Truman wrote quote. The lethal possibilities of such atomic action in the future is frightening, and while we are the first habit in our possession, there is a certainty that it will in the future be developed by potential enemies, and that it will probably be used against us. For the next couple of days, the world waited anxiously for word from Tokyo. WOULD THEY SURRENDER? All they had was radio silence. Some of Truman's advisers feared that the atomic bomb had failed to shock the Japanese into surrender. What would it take more bombings? Truman had delegated to the military use of the bomb, so a second bomb nicknamed fat man was being prepared. Its primary target was the city of Takura. Around this time Truman spoke to the American people explaining his decision to use the bomb. The British Chinese and United States governments. Have given the Japanese. People adequate warning of what is in store for them. We have laid down the general terms on which they can surrender. Are. Warning went on heated. Are Terms rejected. Since then the Japanese have seen what are atomic bomb can do. They can see what it will do in the future. The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on hero. Shema. Military Base. That was because we wished in the first attack to avoid in so far as possible the killing of civilian. But that attack is only a warning of things to come. If Japan does not surrender. MOMS will have dropped on her warrior industries and unfortunate they thousands of civilian lives will be lost. I urge Japanese civilians to leave industrial said he's immediately and save themselves from destruction. I realized that tragic significance of the atomic bomb. is production issues. We're not likely undertaken by this government. But we knew that our enemies were on the search for it. We know now close. They were finding it. And we knew the disaster which would come to this nation, and to all peace, loving nations to all civilization if they had found i. That is why we felt compelled to undertake the long and uncertain and costly Labor of discovery and production. We won the race of discovery against the German. Having found the bomb, we have used it. We have used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor. Against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war. Against those who abandon all pretense of Abang. International Laws of warfare. We have used it in order to chartres in agony of war in our to say the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans. We shall continue to use it. Until. We completely destroyed Japan's power to Mac Warr. Only a Japanese surrender will stop us. On August ninth, the twenty nine nicknamed Boxcar flew the Fatman Bomb Qura. But the crew founded obscured by smoke from firebombing raids on nearby city and from factory smoke. Instead boxcar headed towards its secondary target, the city of Nagasaki. This bomb. A plutonium bomb was even stronger than the bomb that hit Hiroshima. It detonated with a force of around twenty one kilotonnes or twenty one thousand tons of TNT. Another twenty eighty thousand Japanese were killed. Earlier that day, the Soviet Union had declared war against Japan invaded Manchuria with one hundred thousand soldiers Manchuria was the part of China. Japan had conquered. The Japanese having to cities, two atomic bombs were now faced with a two front war against two of the strongest countries on earth. For All, they knew the United States might have even more atomic bombs. One American POW had told the Japanese that America had one hundred atomic bombs left. Although this wasn't true at all, and it will take another two weeks for another bond to be ready. The Japanese had no way to confirm it. With the situation so dire you might have expected Japan to surrender. After the bombing of Hiroshima Prime Minister Kentaro Suzuki and Foreign Minister Togo Shigenori were already convinced that the Japanese had to surrender. But Japan's top military officials refused to budge. In fact, the Minister of War Court Chica and Nami preferred national suicide to preserve the nation's honor rather than surrender saying quote, would it not be wondrous for this whole nation to be destroyed like a beautiful flower? Even after the Japanese government received word of the negative sake bombing and the Soviet invasion, they refused to surrender according to the terms of the Potsdam Declaration The cabinet deadlocked between those who supported surrender and those who refused. Eli's four meetings took place with Japanese cabinet and the deadlock continued. Even after losing to cities to atomic warfare and the prospect of a two front war, and the possibility that America had enough atomic bombs to destroy all of Japanese civilization it's government still couldn't come to consensus for surrender. Finally on August tenth in desperation Prime Minister Suzuki asked the emperor to intervene. Only! He had the clout to tip the government one way or another. The. Emperor then said the following quote. I have given serious thought to the situation prevailing at home and abroad and have concluded that continuing the war can only mean destruction for the nation and the prolongation up bloodshed and cruelty in the world. I cannot bear to see my innocent people suffer any longer. It goes without saying that it is unbearable for me to see the brave and loyal fighting men of Japan disarmed. It is equally unbearable debt others who have rendered me. Devoted service should now be punished as instigators of the war. Nevertheless the time has come to bear the unbearable. I swallow my tears and give my sanctioned to the proposal to accept the allied proclamation on the basis outlined by the foreign minister. With that the Japanese finally accepted the Potsdam Declaration. They insisted though that the emperor should stay. Although some back and forth ensued on whether to accept this ultimately Truman agreed. He wanted the killing to stop. After Negga Sake, Truman withdrew the military's authority to use the bomb again. Truman also said to a senator quote. I also have a human feeling for the women and children of Japan. At a cabinet meeting, he said that the thought of wiping out another city was too horrible that all he kept thinking of. Were quote all those kits? On. August fourteenth nineteen forty-five. Japan officially surrendered. But that didn't mean everyone in the Japanese government was ready to accept defeat. In fact, several hundred, if not a thousand or so officials from the Japanese, war ministry, and the imperial guard were plotting a coup to occupy the Imperial Palace and arrest the ember. The plotters led by one major Kenji Hatanaka killed a number of people in the attempt, and tried to find and destroy a recorded copy of the empress surrender speech, which was to be broadcast across the country. They were hoping they can inspire officers in the army to rise up and prevent the surrender. The rebels learn soon enough that there wasn't support in the army for their plans. Many of those rebels committed suicide. In the midst of the attempted coup, a recording of the speech had been smuggled out of the palace in a laundry basket of women's underwear. It was broadcast to the nation the following day. At last, the worst war in history was over. Harry Truman hoped that the bomb would render an invasion unnecessary and it did just that. The world celebrated as it never had before. But they of days one America, and her allies crowns, before the White House await the announcement from the president of the jets have surrendered unconditionally. I have received this afternoon a message from the Japanese government? To the message to that government by the Secretary of State on August eleven. I deem this reply. A full acceptance of the POPs damn decoration. which specify the unconditional surrender of Japan? There is no qualifications. Reporters rush out to relay the news too anxious world and touch off celebrations throughout the country Washington is jubilant, and in Chicago, more than a million sing and dance in the streets in the biggest celebration, the windy city has ever seen. Joy Is unconfined. On September second, Nineteen forty-five Japanese officials signed the surrender documents on board. The USS Missouri formerly marking the end of World War Two. They had expected to suffer at the hands of the victor to be shamed and humiliated as the vanquished usually are throughout history. One Japanese diplomat, present Tasha Kazu say later wrote about how he felt during the ceremony quote. I tried to preserve the dignity of defeat, but it was difficult, and every minute seem to contain ages. A lump rose in my throat in tears. Quickly gathered in is flooding them. I could hardly bear the site. General Douglas Macarthur began to speak. My earnest hope. And, indeed the hope of all mankind. That from this solemn occasion. A, Better World Chalmer job of the blood and carnage of the path. A world. Founded upon faith and understanding. World dedicated to the dignity of mine and the fulfillment of his most cherished wish. Off Freedom Tolerance and justice. I now invite. The representative. Of Emperor of Japan. It's easy for us today to hear these words and see them as eloquent PABLUM. For for the Japanese, they were stunning. Macarthur went on to talk about the potential of the Japanese to rise above their present posture of defeat. Kossi wrote of his American counterparts. Quote, here's the victor announcing the verdict to the prostrate enemy. He can impose a humiliating penalty if he so desires. And yet he pleads for freedom tolerance and justice for me. who expected the worst humiliation? This was a complete surprise. I was thrilled beyond words spell brown thunderstruck. Kasey would later consider what would have happened. Had the situation been reversed quote? I raise the question whether it would have been possible for us, had we been victorious to embrace the vanquished with a similar magnanimity? Clearly it would have been different. And yet the debate about how it ended continues a debate that continues to define Harry Truman's historical legacy. To this day, many still wonder was the bomb necessary. I don't intend to get into the exact details of this debate or convince you either way. I've already provided the context for the decision. The long years of atrocities that the Japanese had committed throughout Asia and against civilians and soldiers alike. The since the Japanese would not surrender. Heck they hadn't surrendered after the firebombings, which most historians say killed more people than did the atomic bombs. For many decades there was a strong consensus that Truman made the right call. In one, thousand, nine, forty, five, a Gallup poll immediately after the war indicated eighty five percent of Americans believed that it was the right thing to do. That consensus is disappearing. By Two Thousand Fifteen Pew Research reported that fifty six percent of Americans now believe that it was justified. To some by dropping the bomb Harry Truman essentially committed a crime against humanity. But the fact remains even after a year of firebombings, an island warfare after two cities were wiped out by atomic bombs, and after the invasion by the Soviet, union the Japanese hadn't conclusively surrendered. The allies had no guarantee that the war would end in that the killing what stop. They had no guarantee that an invasion wouldn't be necessary for all. They knew they might have to drop more bombs and wipe out more cities to end the war, and they had no idea that at least one major Japanese official minister of war, a Nami dreamed of a final grand battle, in which the Japanese people committed the equivalent of national suicide. It took the emperor, a man regarded as a deity to force the government to accept a surrender. Semi look at this and still believed the atomic bomb was not justified that perhaps a demonstration would have gotten the Japanese to quit or that. The US for moral reasons should have been willing to shoulder the load of an invasion, no matter how horrific it would have been. But at least for now a majority of Americans believe. Truman made the right call. And yet even for those who believed that it was the right choice. You're awake to something sobering. That at one moment in history, the world was at such a point that using the bomb and inflicting that kind of destruction was actually the better of the two options. It leads one to ask if that was the better option. What does it say about humanity? What does it say about us a species? But the important thing at that moment was that the war was finally over Harry. Truman had only been in office for half a year, but he was already presiding over one of the most consequential times in history one that saw the end of the most destructive conflict in history. It was for many Americans their country's greatest moment. The president's approval ratings were sky high well into the high eighties. Americans couldn't wait to get back to their normal lives. But challenges loomed ahead. The nation was about to transition into a new peacetime economy. It hadn't experienced a normal economy since before the great, depression. The. tomek genie was out of the bottle Harry Truman for the rest of his life with live with the decision he made to use it on his fellow human beings, and the allies now victorious were arguing over unsettled business. It had been a momentous first few months, but Harry Truman's problems were really just beginning. The rest of his story is a subject of the next episode of this American President. If you WANNA learn more about today's episode Checkout Truman Guy David McCullough the making of the atomic bomb by Richard Roads in strategies of containment. John Lewis Gas. Today's episode is the start of a multi print series on presidents during the Cold War. We also wanted to thank our patriots supporters, especially pollen and Olson from Sioux, falls South Dakota for their very generous gift. You, too can support us by going to patriotic dot com slash this American president and getting any amount. You choose episode me release. Like you've been hearing. You can help us by sharing our episode on twitter and facebook. Richard Lim and we're back next time for more. This American asked. Him!
Wolf Warrior | 3
"The most successful chinese movie of all time is called wolf warrior to. It came out a few years ago in two thousand seventeen and tells the story of a chinese soldier who basically saves africa from evil american mercenaries. They say violence never sold anything. The sure is fun. The movie is action packed and insanely violent. Think the fast and the furious needs scramble. The film's tagline reads. Anyone who offends china will be killed no matter how far away the target is the patriotic storyline and over the top action sequences help to make wolf warrior to the highest grossing non english movie of all time raking in about a billion dollars at the box office and it also inspired a new political term wolf warrior diplomacy which is now used by some china and in the west to describe the actions of the chinese government under president siege pink. He hasn't audaciously ambitious plan. Essentially subordinate the west all countries of the planet to china's leadership. She's in pain has been particularly successful as goupil implying. The padilla game now. Don't think any of us saw that coming. I'm jeff simple. Senior correspondent for global news. And this is china rising episode three wolf warrior for decades chinese leaders and diplomats at a reputation for playing it safe on the world stage. Their foreign policy statements were bland and their stated goal was to keep a low profile to mostly stay out of international affairs and focus instead on growing china's economy but over the last few years that strategy has shifted. Dramatically taina's foreign policy has taken an aggressive turn this year. Such as lashing out to destroy leah for pushing an investigation into the origins of the covid nineteen virus. China's trade sanctions have heat industry after industry. Now there's news. Chinese fighter jets came within a few hundred meters of a canadian warship. At a press conference last year china's foreign minister explained the government will never pick a fight or bully others but he said we have principles and guts and we will push back against any deliberate insult. Beijing is accused of targeting. The west with disinformation hostage diplomacy economic sanctions even military aggression in the contested waters of the south china. Sea sparking a debate among canada and its allies over how to respond to win increasingly bold and brazen beijing insofar as candidates concern. We've made it very clear to ourselves. Soft approach does not work. If there's a schoolyard bully ignore them. And if you can't ignore them make you make a plan. you're not gonna put up with it. The driving force behind china's newly aggressive foreign policy is widely seen as coming from the very top season ping was elected chinese president in november twenty twelve at a communist party. Congress held inside the cavernous great hall of people seriously. I'll dining chen bonjangles goes. Would you promise to rally and lead the whole party. And the chinese people of all ethnic groups to liberate our way of thinking and to reform at the time western observers were filled with hope believing that c would become a great liberal reformer and partner to western democracies they were wrong presidency has clamped down on dissent removed the term limits for his rule and centralized his grip on power. It's really been a tragic personally to see how china has changed under xi jinping but to truly understand how to respond to a combative chinese president. We need to know who he is where he came from and how season ping went from great reformer to wolf warrior. I decided to ask some one who has shaken his hand and looked him in. The i i totally can hear me there again. It's nice to see how are you. I'm not too bad actually. Tony stace is an expert on china at harvard university. And he met season ping back when he was still vice. President in two thousand and eight sees daughter was studying at harvard and tony was part of a delegation from the university invited to meet see at a formal event inside the great hall of the people in beijing. Tony remembers sees political poker face. He received us. It was beautifully uninformative. You know it attracts a patent. The you're the vice president. You wanna keep pretty close what your views are about anything and you don't want to be seen to be rocking any boats. You don't want to give too much away. Tony says see was a sharp contrast from his predecessor. Jiang's who led the chinese communist party for over a decade until two thousand and two. Tony says unlike sea jiang was very upfront. He was very oakland. He actually loved just having questions and a discussion and what was set up. I think for a half hour meeting finished at least an hour and a half With a lot of backroom falls besieging being very much ritual. Where you know. He was very polite. But so i don't think any of this cleaned anything about the nature of the man that time that visit set the tone for sees presidency details about his life including why and how he makes decisions even where he lives are all shrouded in. Secrecy is one of the world's most powerful men and yet we know remarkably little about him keeping up with the flood of news. Every day can be stressful. That's why crooked. Daily news podcast. What a day is here. Each day. comedian akilah and politics. Reporter gideon resnick breakdown. The biggest news stories helping understand what matters and what you can do about it and twenty minutes or less new episodes of what day. Come out every morning monday. Through friday at four pm eastern listening subscribe at apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever. You get your podcasts If you head down to your local bookstore and looked for political biographies you'll find the usual suspects. There's a promised land by barack obama. Lots of books about donald trump. Great again the art of the deal. There is justin trudeau angle merckel vladimir putin there are even biographies on north korea's secretive leader. Kim jong eun but what you won't find are any substantial biographies on the current president of china. to reason for those bats eunson. She grew up in china and now lives in washington. Dc yun is the director of the china program at the stimson center a global security. think tank. This is almost a traditional chinese leaders that they don't see biographies the region about the leader's a well. They are stu empower on this one because the chinese traditional culture that you don't write a book about the person who is alive because he's life has not ended and Another reason is while for someone who is who is to empower if you want to write about or fee is very difficult to have accomplished story. A single is xi jinping producer. Adam there's also the factor of the narrative being closely guarded and being closely managed by other a complicated system of Of the message were the propaganda department. If you will. But by combining the official version of events with other interviews and details we can piece together an outline abc's early life and offers some insights into the man who would become president see was born in nineteen fifty three into a life of luxury. He was a princeling. A term which referred to the sons of china's original revolutionary leaders. The country had just been through a brutal civil war and the communists had won. Now matt thank. You haven't been in nineteen forty nine. Their leader mousa deng declared victory and founded the people's republic of china the country as we know it today now became its ruler and chairman of the chinese communist party sees father was a famous general considered a war hero and he became a high ranking official under mao as a result sees family was practically royalty. They lived in a famous compound in beijing along with other chinese leaders and at a time when china was rife with poverty sees family had chefs bodyguards chauffeurs and specialized schools that were set up just to educate the children of the communist party elites as a young boy see was described by his teachers as a polite shy bookworm but at around the age of ten everything changed was finally from power. Basically lose everson sees father had a falling out with chairman mao. He was stripped of his position and effectively. Outcast separated from his family and sent to do manual labor far away in the countryside then a few years later in one thousand nine hundred sixty six mao launched the cultural revolution speaking to a crowd of millions in. Tnn square mao announced his plans to purge the communist party and the country of what he called capitalist roaders or influences. The revolution ended up spiraling into a decade of chaos destroying much of the country's social fabric. Millions died at the time. She was just a teenager. His family's house was ransacked. One of his sisters is said to have committed suicide his mother was forced to publicly denounce both see and his father. Her husband as enemies of the state in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine c. Along with around sixteen million other young chinese were loaded onto trains and sent to the countryside to work in the fields with the peasants. Seven years of physical labor sees add experience Significant in shaping. His personality shaping. His approach to politics contribution showed him the how cruel power struggle could be in in china especially within Within the power center and that there is a sense of the debut. If you lose you lose ariza see likes to tell the story of his time in exile about how. It opened his eyes to the suffering of ordinary rural chinese. After a few months of manual labor see couldn't take it and actually ran away back to beijing but he was eventually sent back to the countryside and he not only was sent to the countryside but he went to a particularly poor particularly undeveloped particularly brutal region of china and he stayed there for a guitar particularly longtime compared to others. Down us in. We seen him remarks. I repeatedly that there was nothing as hard as that and it turned him into a tougher individual. That's joseph tha reagan. A china expert at american university in washington. Dc he's writing a biography on sees father. Xi zhongxun to reagan says that unlike other members of the elite who'd been cast out neither see nor his father ever turned their backs on the communist party was so interesting as this individual who for western observers might seem like someone who would be upset with this organization that had caused him to go through all of those emotionally distressing experiences was actually someone who took pride in what he faced. Because in his words they were forging experiences they were moments in time beds not only allowed him to rededicate himself to the party but also demonstrated his beliefs that the party was the only organization that could save china. The chaos of the cultural revolution taught see that a strong central government and communist party were needed to hold the country together. In nineteen seventy six mao died and the cultural revolution finally ended see returned to beijing to study and his father was welcomed back into the communist party and became a champion of economic reform in nineteen eighty sees. Father was one of the first chinese officials to visit the united states so for anybody who studies chinese elite politics. Conventional narrative for a very long time was at after the cultural revolution. The leadership in the party decided that it would be disastrous for another strongman to emerge xi. Jinping's own father was of their particular opinion. Little did he know that his own son siege in pain would emerge as that strongmen eunson from the stimson center. Think tank says over the next three decades see slowly climbed his way up the echelons of power nearly started the from the very bottom of the system but he gradually rose up in the system and remembers it by the time that he came to power china being basically keeping a low profile on biding his time for almost three decades. So i think the idea by two thousand searching the idea that somehow the new chinese leader is going to completely away from the previous past and seek a ambitious assertive or aggressive. Foreign policy was quite as instead. Many believe that see follow his father's footsteps and push for reforms by further opening china's economy and drawing closer to western democracies. But tony stace from harvard. University believes the turning point came a few years earlier in two thousand and seven. C was appointed party secretary of shanghai and he watched china's state owned enterprises businesses that enjoy massive government financial support rocking up record prophets. He saw mobility salt worked and a model. Which could key the communist party in control of the process then came two thousand eight wall street's worst day since nine eleven the dow plunging more than five hundred points the smp down almost five percents. The wreckage unprecedented see and other chinese officials watched as the financial crisis devastated the united states and its allies. And i think we see very discernible shifts mentality and attitude amongst many of the elite leaders china including many of those who very sympathetic to the united states and perhaps wanting to move their economy is no there politics more towards western model developed. And i think that really created shock And idea that somehow the west is master we are. The pupils should study certain parts of it faded away and the became a much stronger confidence. Perhaps what china was doing was best and the You know china could get it right. Seize backstory paints a picture of a man who has witnessed extreme poverty and political chaos. And who believes the best backstop against both is an all powerful central communist party. But i think from cease leg when he took power in twenty twelve china. It's an absolute mess. Corruption is endemic local government. Local society seemed to receiving its own interests. A little attention to what beijing was intending or beijing was pushing and i think is a lot to round with that. I think he saw unless there was strong. Central control through a unified. Chinese communist party china will be in trouble after see took power. He wasted no time tightening. His grip sees political philosophy. Called season in thought is now enshrined in the chinese constitution in twenty eighteen chinese lawmakers abolished the five year term limits allowing see to remain. President indefinitely see is now widely considered to be china's most powerful leader since chairman mao. Xi jinping has been particularly successful as google implying. The padilla game in on aiming at his political opponents and gradually removing them from their power. I think what is surprised by south and others is the degree of centralization seating thing as pursued centralization of power not only over his communist party but also on the economy and all aspects of society his critics accused him of accelerating beijing's crackdown on human rights increasing mass surveillance and censorship in twenty eighteen. Those chinese censors even banned winnie the pooh after online posts and memes joked about sees apparent resemblance to the lovable cartoon bear but sees supporters claim. Those accusations are baseless distractions from his great achievements. Beijing says sees government has nearly a hundred million people out of poverty though that figure was calculated using a poverty line that the world bank typically applies to poor countries. While china's economy is the second largest in the world propaganda videos often show see mingling with farmers smiling holding hands and walking together to highlight the president's concern for the rural poor and china claims. It just shows the extent of china's human rights. That's jeremy paul. Till he's a china expert at carleton university in ottawa and he was also a visiting professor of international relations at tsinghua university in beijing. He says the chinese government sees itself as prioritizing good of the country ahead of the individual our approach to human rights and rights. General is through the individual that is to say if one individual is treated badly poorly treated to a western canadian point of view that means that no one's rights are safe. It's not that. China has no regard for human beings. They don't regard rights on an individual basis. So the fact that you reduce extreme poverty shows that the government cares about human beings. But they don't necessarily care about individuals in the same way that our system does and our values Teach us jeremy argues those differences in values shouldn't preclude from being an ally to the west. China can be both different and not an enemy. We have to be able to find a way of talking across difference without defining difference as being enemy but one of the hallmarks of sees rule has been zero tolerance approach towards anyone who dares to challenge or even question is government and its policies cracking down on dissent both at home and abroad. The prime minister says it's clear. Michael covert and michael spa or were detained in an obvious attempt to put political pressure on ottawa. The arrests of the two michaels canadians call rig and spa avoir. In december twenty eighteen are widely seen as retaliation for canada's arrest of chinese telecom executive mum when joe at the request of the united states beijing temporarily blocked billions of dollars in imports of canadian canola beef and pork jeremy paul till from carleton university says beijing is punishing canada to send a message to chinese expression is killing chicken to scare a monkey that faced with the pressure from the united states and the attack on china's trade china did want to make clear at that time that people would follow the donald trump's way there would be consequences for and those consequences have sparked a debate in canada over how to respond. We have been unequivocal in our defense of the two michaels arbitrarily detained in china. We've continued to work to resolve that situation. We will continue to stand up for the canadians rights for canadian interests. Canadian prime minister justin trudeau has tried to walk a fine line at times talking tough but also unwilling to take any real action against china. An emphasis bowl for global news last year found canadians are similarly torn around half said canada should be careful not to offend the chinese government and risk further retaliation while the other half disagreed and wanted ottawa to take a tougher stance one thing. Both sides agreed on eighty. Two percent of those polled said canada should reduce its trade reliance on china yet again. Is jeremy paul. -til from carleton university. There is no doubt that there has been a collapse of trust and yet we live in a world which is is profoundly interdependent probably three out of four packages that arrive on your doorstep that you've ordered contained stuff that's made in china and we'll continue to be made in china. Our prosperity in some sense does depend on having something new going prosperity of china. Indeed china is canada's second largest trading partner though it's a distant second well behind the united states last year china accounted for fourteen percent of our imports and less than four percent of canadian. Exports actually canada's economic dependence on. The chinese regime is not as great as most people think. That's charles burton formerly a lawyer at the canadian embassy in beijing who is now with macdonald. Laurie institute an auto. A think tank seems to me that so long as the government. Only a condemns the chinese violations of the international rules based order in diplomacy and trade and human rights by simple lip-service or virtuous signaling simply saying canada's very concerned or we We'd like an investigation of this or that but we don't take any effective retaliatory measures that the sent the the chinese regime to do more of this kind of thing but for a lesson in what can happen when a mid sized country decides to challenge china. one need only look down under hugh. Remington is an australian journalist and national affairs editor for the ten network broadcaster in australia. You used to be based in hong kong. Where on the outer with china at the moment. Beijing recently kicked out every single australian journalist working for an australian news outlet in china in just six months last year. The foreign correspondents club of china said beijing. Feld a record seventeen foreign journalists that. There's there's no visible time in the future in current conditions where we're gonna have any journalists going back in the over. The past couple of years to chinese australian journalists and writers have been arrested including chung lay. Who worked for the chinese state broadcaster. She's now charged with spying to ever surprise. she did. She was not a troublemaker. She she broadcast of business program on chinese television There was there was no obvious case. Certain reason being given but she has been in detention australian news outlets top along growing list of ozzy. Industries caught in the political crossfire and so from a timber to lobster to wine to bali and a whole bunch of other commodities that we sell to china We found our exports access being closed off and that is causing a degree of pain. China is by far australia's largest trading partner responsible for about half of all trade so what sparked the spat. What seemed to be. The specific trigger was at a point. Last year with the whole world was dating with the pandemic the prime minister of Scott morrison really got out a little ahead of everyone else and said publicly that he thought they should be an independent global inquiry into the sources of the pandemic. Now this might seem an absent. Young remarkable statement to make if you've got a pandemic that shutting down the global economy that's causing untold human suffering. That it would be a reasonable thing for the base for the benefit all the world to find out where it came from but this is a hot spot it is. It is a do not cross the line moment for china and they saw this as being a an insult and almost immediately there were consequences. Starting deflector chinese officials recently provided australian reporters with a list of fourteen grievances. Reasons why beijing is angry with canberra besides calling for an inquiry on the source of the pandemic. Chinese officials also pointed to australia's decision to ban. Wa- alway the chinese telecom company from its five g rollout and a new law banning foreign interference australian politics which beijing said was targeting china in the absence of any evidence when there are criticisms that need to be made about china people from the australian experience that it's unwise to go as a single nation and criticized china because you'll be picked off so as a result. Western allies are now locking arms. We have to have the monkeys working together. Us president joe biden is focused on building a coalition of countries to stand up to china. Invite an alliance democracies to come here to discuss future. And so we're gonna make it clear that in order to deal with these things we're going to hold china accountable to follow the rules. One example of that coordinated response in march of this year the us eu uk and canada came together to pass joint economic sanctions targeting a number of chinese officials for their alleged roles in persecuting wieger minority. Can you just introduce yourself. So we have a two on the record. I'm stephen lee. Myers the beijing bureau chief for the new york times now based in seoul and in case you were wondering why the new york times beijing bureau chief is based in south korea I've been a little more than a year now. They kicked us out. In march of twenty twenty myers and his american colleagues at the new york times the wall street journal and the washington post were all expelled from china year. Collateral damage in a spat between beijing and then. Us president donald trump but his predecessor us. President joe biden seems less interested in challenging china alone. The biden administration perhaps wisely as thought that the united states can't take on china by itself but would do better with its european allies. Its asian allies and has been. I think steadily quietly trying to explorers explore ways that jointly collectively they can bring pressure on china to change its behavior. China sees that as an inevitable threat is doing. Its best to try to block that you know to split the allies when they can and but are also very happy to compete in show that they have their own allies that they can turn to. Russia is principal one but also across africa pakistan. It's its immediate neighbours. China feels like it has a lot of allies doesn't really have to bow to the united states and its friends to to meet their demands for some watching china and the united states to superpowers with opposing worldviews building. Coalitions against each other feels ominously familiar. Usa is china a new cold war. China's wolf warrior diplomacy and growing tensions over the status of hong kong taiwan and the south china sea of sparked a debate over whether the world is heading towards another cold. War myers was based in russia for the new york times before he relocated to china a few years ago and he believes the cold war analogy has merit albeit with one key difference. There are elements of this kind of cold war geopolitical competition. It's militarily it's economically. I mean one huge difference. I think is that in. Before in the cold war you had the soviet bloc which was effectively cut off from the rest of the world but really you had two separate systems in the world is just much more integrated now and for that reason. Biden strategy of alliance building is already showing some cracks. Germany for example is rebuffing. The idea the chinese market is just too important for german automakers and after china banned barley imports from australia. The chinese government started buying from canadian farmers. Instead those farmers are now enjoying record sales and so i think it would be much more difficult to decouple. They sometimes are like create this divided world again where you have people on one side of the other because you know the relationships are always be much more entangled so the question in this new new kind of cold war is how how do they. The political deal political conflicts spillover into the areas where you do have this integration. In the meantime china is building. Its own alliances only looking in pretty experienced senior chinese officials of held a flurry of meetings. In recent months with their russian counterparts russian president vladimir putin described ties between the two countries as being at the best level in history. China is also investing heavily in fostering relationships with poor and developing countries in asia africa and latin america offering support from loans to chinese made cove in nineteen vaccines. I think that if you talk to most thoughtful chinese officials their intention is not to the alienate themselves from the world but they're demanding respect And it's their respect on their turns. They're not just saying like perspectives. In heroes out do what we want and right now looking around the world. It seems to be working. The message to the world is clear. China's wolf warrior president is showing his teeth in the final fight. See of wolf warrior to that hit chinese movie. I mentioned at the start of the episode. The main american bad guy as the good guy. The chinese soldier into the ground with a knife to his throat. The american says people like you will always be inferior to people like me. Then the chinese hero snaps in a feat of strength he jumps up overtakes. His american enemy grabs the knife and replies. That's history as he strikes a fatal blow then. The hero is driven away to a resounding applause. Were holding a chinese flag in the air movies. Like just about everything else. In jinping's china are sanctioned by the government and there's little doubt that the president would approve of that script featuring a poor african country long exploited by evil westerners and finally rescued by a wolf warrior with china rising on the next episode of china rising. We'll visit a city. That many in the west had never heard of before january. Twenty twenty chinese authorities are effectively putting quarantine on an entire city. Cutting off wuhan. It was scary to be honest with you. I have never seen the city like that. China's initial cover up of the origin of the corona virus is resulting in its spread around the world. We cannot exclude the possibility of some kind of a lab accident. that's next time on. China relations ing. This podcast is written and produced by me. Jeff simple with producers deliver says and cameras avid audio. Editing and sound design is by rob johnston editing assistance with stephanie desouza. You can help me share this podcast by telling a friend. And don't forget to rate and review. China rising on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen you can find me on. Twitter at jeff simple. Gm and you can email me at jeff dot sample at global news dot ca. Thanks for listening and please join me next time. On china rising what world. I'm tasha crisslow. I make music videos. And over the past twenty years i worked with everyone from drake to kendrick lamar to co. Play on our new podcast. Architects director acts eboni. Take you aside. The minds of the world's best directors musicians activism more true visionaries who shape the world around us. Join us on architects available for free on apple podcasts. Spotify wherever you find your favorite podcasts.
Is China Winning?
"Hey everyone it's jonathan temperament editor in chief of foreign policy magazine. And this is p playlist each week. I'm going to help you make sense of the crazy mess. Podcast they are by recommending one show from somewhere around the world this week. We hear from things that go boom a show that was launched in two thousand and eighteen by lacy healy back when the show was born. Lacy was working at the stimson center at base thing tanks that focuses on international security. Here's lacy with a little more about the show's origins and the episode whereabouts t here he jonathan. Thank you so much for having me on Things that go boom is a narrative. National security podcast. We try to dig deeper into the policy issues of the day foreign policy and national security issues and we try to do that by looking at human stories and talking to real people and i also talking to experts about. You know what they're thinking about how they're thinking about things asking tough questions and you're really trying to get deeper into the stories than you might be able to through just an interview or Just a conversation with an expert I i really started this. This show Three years ago. About around the time that i founded inc stick media I spent a lot of time as an analyst Working on defense budget and nuclear weapons policy. I was most recently at the stem center. And what the one of the reasons why i really came to this is because i was sitting on my perch at the simpson center as an analyst. Pitching my own work to places. And i found that There there wasn't Something out there. That was sort of actively seeking out what we do at instinct media and what we do on the is really actively seek out a diverse range of voices that means talking to women and people of color that means talking to people on the ground who are actually experiencing the impacts of our foreign policy decisions and of our national security decisions And that means really getting in there and doing the kind of reporting that the broader national security foreign policy analysis space really wasn't doing and so that was something that i wanted to do and get in and really talk to people and also showcase and highlight a variety of voices that that i wasn't hearing from and as a woman in the field. That was something that was particularly important to me. Because i didn't really feel at the time. Like i had a place that was being driven by a person like me And so this is my attempt at creating that said this past season season. Three of things that go boom. We really decided to head into the season with with one big question in mind which is what is this thing that we're calling great power competition and and how are we going to approach it as a country. How are we going to approach this. Future relationship with china and russia And and what does that look like. What is the word competition even mean when we're really digging down deep into it and as we were producing this season Coronavirus hit and so we sort of did a really quick pivot to talk more about coronavirus in sort of the face of power competition but they also really we found were were quite related and this episode speaks directly to the place. We were in where really we were struggling with. This idea of of whether china was doing better at responding to the virus than we were as a country and whether the us was really kind of showing it's hand after years of investing in really expensive foreign wars and not necessarily investing heavily in things like pandemic preparedness or Some of the other issues that folks have at home so this episode is called while we were sleeping and it really asked the question. Was the us sleeping through china's rise. That was an executive producer. Lacy healy from things that go boom. Now let's listen to the episode while we were sleeping. It was first aired in june for a lot of the world. The us response to coronavirus has looked like a shambles not long after the virus had our shores medical workers were left begging for thermometer's bodybags and masks using trash bags as makeshift gowns. And the whole thing reinforces this idea. That was already out there that the united states is falling behind. The pandemic shown that the world's supposed superpower hasn't been able to handle its own crisis. It highlights for much of the world and especially for america's adversaries that despite this whole idea of american exceptionalism the. Us has some deep seated problems that go way beyond corona virus. is your roads. Is your bridges. It's your schools. Kisha mahbubani is a political scientist and former president of the un security council. And he's been thinking a lot about this debate in his new book. He asks us to consider a simple question. Has china a to d if you want to experience a third. We'll f part you go to kennedy airport in new york yes. American airports have their problems like the alligator found wandering through. Chicago's o'hare yes. All you can take the train from boston. New york the Fostering and it's amazing. How bad it is sooner. The acela have been semi is such a tragedy. Why had we slowed to a crawl. Because there's a new jersey transit train going into penn station ahead of us and we have exactly two tracks under that river and we get this kind of congestion all the time by international standards. The acela is a little tragic in two thousand. Fifteen average speed clocked in at sixty eight miles per hour and our airports are much better. And if you want to experience a full body go to beijing or shy and if you want to think of fostering you take the foster train from to beijing which i've taken which goes a seven kilometers an hour. Here's detail but my four year old would love. The train from shanghai doesn't even touch the tracks it hovers over them on a magnetic buffer at almost two hundred seventy miles per hour. It's the fastest commercially operated train. In the world. You know the same bid it was. China has invested so much in building up its physical infrastructure and its intellectual infrastructure. America's not making the same investments america. He saying get dressed because china was up at dawn. I'm lacey healy and this is things that go boom your friendly neighborhood. National security podcast episode. We asked how did we get here if the us can't build better airports trains than china or even take care of itself in times of major crisis like the coronavirus. How exactly is it. Supposed to be china in this global competition mabubani says just a few short decades ago. The us looked a whole lot. Friendlier and shinier. To china in fact southeast asia looked to the us as a leader on a game changer. Mabubani says his own. Life is a perfect example. He grew up in singapore. Well you know we live in a relatively poor neighborhood Six of us living in a one bedroom house with a being rent of about six. Us dollars a month and we didn't have a flush toilet but there was crime in our neighborhood. We could see gangsters fighting each other And sort of touting each other with broken beer bottles and indeed at the age of six. When i first went to school the principal wade all of us. And he picked out ten or twelve boys who were technically under undernourished and i was one of them and i was. Put it in a special feeding program. When i was Six years old by the reason why i succeeded. Is that as a child. I discovered a small public library about kilometer from my house and i began borrowing books and reading books in english written by very distinguished western authors and i realized the reason why asia is rising. Now is that the west has been very generous with a gift of western wisdom to the rest of the world especially the gift of western reasoning. And that is now spreading through the rest of the world and is lifting up the lives of lots of millions and billions of poor people in the same way that my life was uplifted by western wisdom. Mabubani referring to the western brand free markets entrepreneurship. Good governance he says today the. Us is not always seen as an exceptional western country china. Meanwhile is ascendant. And for some. The coronavirus put an exclamation point on this shift. China did suppress early warnings about the disease and there were other missteps but the us also struggled as of this recording the us with less than five percent of the world's population has recorded almost thirty percent of the world's coronavirus deaths. You talk about two point two million deaths and so if we could hold that down as we're saying to one hundred thousand that's a horrible number so we have between one hundred and two hundred thousand. We altogether have done a very good job. Mahbubani says the writing was on the waldo decades ago and he points to one event in particular as a big blinking neon sign post november of nineteen ninety news from east germany where the east german authorities have said in. Essence of the berlin wall doesn't mean anything anymore. The wall at the east germans up in nineteen sixty one to keep people in will now be breached by anybody who wants to leave so i was feeling completely puzzled What was going on. Because i thought the soviet union was spending lhasa another hundred years so he was one of the most stunning developments that i've experienced in my life became completely out of the blue. He says the news was intoxicating kind of literal way. It left the us. Drunk with sense of triumphalism and hubris happened to be in harvard in ninety-one ninety-two and i was shocked to discover how arrogant many american intellectuals had begun. And of course the at all. I guess as you say Inhale the smoke from francis fukuyama famous essay the end of history which said that all of humanity had come to an end of history. And there's only one path for the world to follow which was to become carbon copies of western liberal democratic societies and of course for eighteen hundred after the last two thousand years the two largest economies of the world have always been those of china and india so the last one hundred years of western domitian had been enormous historical aberrations and essay. As i've argued many times did tremendous damage to the west because it put the west to sleep at precisely the moment when china and india decided to wake up. the other. flashpoint comes twelve years later in two thousand one and this one kind of slips under the radar a historian is writing the history of the wo- one thousand years from now. And if you ask to say what were the most significant events that happen right as the third millennium began he would point to china's joining of the wto guzman china joined the world. Trade organization is suddenly injected about nine hundred million. That's times the population of the united states into the global capitalist system and amazingly there. There was a remarkable degree of complacency basically mahbubani sang. America just didn't adapt fast enough to the cheaper. Chinese labor outsource jobs and increased competition america. Thought we have one we can just go coasting on. We don't have to change or just of course. Europe did the right thing and invested a lot in retraining of workers. America didn't do so at all and the consequences that over a thirty year period between nineteen eighty. Two thousand ten america became the only major developed country where the average income of the bottom fifty five zero percent went down. And that's a perfect example of what happens when you go to sleep. The people suffer at the end of world war two. The us accounted for fifty percent of global gdp. Today it's just a little over twenty percent if you adjust for purchasing power as in how much we can buy for the money we make. China overtook the us to become the world's largest economy about five years ago and before the coronavirus upended. Everything economists estimated that china would become the world outright largest economy in ten to fifteen years and are are there specific things that you can point to that that might have changed as such as you know. Opportunities travel education at the ways in which that the average person might have seen. These acts one of the saddest species of data which i document in my book. One is that two thirds of american families. Do not have five hundred dollars in emergency cash. You know that's a sign of tremendous social distress. So i think the bottom fifty percent in america even if they had worked very hard would have found. The playing field was not a level one and they had to try and kick the football up hill and the people at the top zero volume one percent or what percent had to kick the football downhill circle back to china just a little bit during those same thirty years if you can just compare and contrast how life is changing during those thirty years for the average chinese citizen versus the average american citizen. While i know i i went to china in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight when i went there. China was still very traditional communist country. Even those gradually opening up and the chinese people would not allow to choose where to live. What two way where to study where to work and certainly the chinese will not allow to travel overseas as tortoise. Today the same chinese have the freedom to choose rack to live to work what to way what to study an each year hundred and thirty four million chinese leave china freely and guess what hundred and thirty four million which is more than one third. The population united states goes back to china freely. So if china was still dot communist gula would hundred and thirty four million chinese go back to china so clearly something. Fundamental change in china and america has an understood that change to be fair. Some chinese are more free than others. Since early twenty seventeen the government is engaged in the extreme occasion of up to a million workers kazaks and other ethnic minorities forcing them into internment camps in xinjiang and religious figures intellectuals academics and others are regularly detained for speaking out against the government and americans have sort of historically and even now had a hard time wrapping their minds around china and one of the ways that that manifest today is is that they really can't understand. How many chinese people are supportive of their government. Can you speak a little bit too. that you're right. I mean they cannot understand the fact that even though china lives in a country run by the communist party of china. The communist party of china has delivered a far greater improvement in the lives of ordinary chinese than any previous chinese government has done in three thousand years. So if you if you are a very poor chinese who had experienced famines who didn't have enough to eat who couldn't send his during the school who had to struggle with the basic income. Suddenly the last two years have been the best thirty years ever in chinese history. And then you say why. Should i change my government. You know but. I think many of the american reactions china not driven by any rational calculations but driven by a deep emotional undercurrent a deep fear and distrust of what is called the yellow race and that also explains in many cases why many americans failed to understand china because they cannot make an even conceive of the possibility that society like china would try and do well when we come back. We try to understand how lack of understanding and the coronavirus could be leading us to war. 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The nine eleven distracted the united states from china's rise. But i think that's actually the wrong lesson to be learned. That's rachel esplanade odell. She's a research fellow in the east asia program at the quincy and stoop for responsible statecraft and she's also an international security fellow at the harvard kennedy school. The mistake was that we try to use military force to bend the world to our will and us officials distorted intelligence and manipulated claims about iraqi wmd's in ways that misled the american people and enabled the bush administration's rushed to war against iraq. And so the risk is that. That's what the trump administration is doing. This present moment where they're releasing claims about the origins of this virus that that seemed to imply that china did this and some malicious way and mister secretary. Have you seen anything that gives you high confidence that it originated in that wuhan lab martha there's enormous that that's where this began and it's responsible for all the death and suffering. That's taking place in the united states. I would like to begin by announcing some important developments in war against the chinese virus. But it's not just the us china's attitude theory that the us started. The virus is mainstream. In china government controlled shinwa tweeted animation. Further mocking the. Us is blaming of china. Are you listening to yourselves early. Win americans are experiencing a lot of fear and uncertainty that can provide an opening for people who want a united states to pursue a more hostile zero-sum approach to foreign relations to push their agendas. And that's where we stand in this moment. So that risks pushing us into a cold war china and it's hard to understate the risks here if you were as mabubani says sleeping when china woke up. Here's what you're waking up to on the military front china's military doesn't look quite like the us it has to aircraft carriers. The us has eleven. Certainly china wants much more global power and influence but it doesn't want global military primacy in anything like the united states has the just is not building the kind of military capacity that what it all compare to the united states instead. China's forces aimed at countering the us locally and a lot of military analysts say it's working some believe china's more or less level the playing field along the east asian coastline or even gain the upper hand and one reason they that is that the us regularly loses to china in war games. Where even our aircraft carriers are forced to seal away to escape attack. I don't think the stakes could be much higher. This is the number one number two powers in the world. We talking about inverness collation to to nuclear conflict which oftentimes is under appreciated and the consequences of war aren't just in lives. Lost though lives could certainly be lost. Mabubani says look again at nine eleven and the invasion of iraq. Look how much that cost us. Some economists predicted that america s wasted three trillion dollars on that conflict. And if you can imagine. The three trillion dollars being spent on the american people to provide health education in jobs instead of fighting Will the american people would have been much much better off today and it was a completely unnecessary war because america accomplished nothing and today when america complaints about iranian influence in iraq very few americans are aware that the main dam that was preventing iranian inference from entering iraq was saddam hussein and america broke the dam and then america broke. The dam is perfect natural for iran to recover his influence among the dominant shiite-majority in iraq. And you know frankly. If you don't have a comprehensive global policy a means that america is constantly giving joe political to china so i can tell you if if for example the united states ends up in a war with iraq iran. I wouldn't be surprised if the champagne pops in beijing because they say well done. America will not be destructive for another ten years in another useless war in the middle east and china will keep rising so if china if america had a comprehensive global strategy. Do china the first thing it should do is stop fighting wars in the middle east and every war every every intervention whether it's yemen syria libya iraq is a gift to china so have a little bit of a provocative question for you. But if you were to be born in either china or the us today as a poor malnourished child which would you choose. Well the answer to that question is given by an american philosopher called john roles and the question is would you rather choose to be born in the bottom. Ten percent in america are the bottom ten percent in china. And there's absolutely no doubt that if you had to make a choice in that dimension. If you're born in the bottom ten percent in america your likelihood of going to jail of suffering from opioids of dying early i so much higher than if you were born in the bottom ten percent in china so if you do not know which class you're going to be born into that i would say you choose to be born in china but of course if you knew for certain you're going to be born the top ten percent than i will say you should born in america with that in mind it turns out. I had one more provocative for mabubani. So has china one well. I think you have to read my book. Okay i is the answer to the question. Has china one is no not yet. We are seeing the beginning of a major job political contests between the united states and china and alas for the next ten or twenty years. And it's almost like watching. An unstoppable train wreck you can see the two trains coming towards each other. You can see the disaster coming by you cannot stop it so time to wake up. What can the. Us begin to do to turn around the relationship. Do you have suggestions very simply. If china was a company and america was a company not a country they will see the synergies within the two companies and they will immediately collaborate. If the primary goal of the american government is to improve the wellbeing of three hundred and thirty million americans should completely withdraw from the middle east and spend the money on taking care of his own people and china should take care of his own people and they can both work together the their own people. When that's a fundamental common interest that united states and china have rachel hurdles on board with that. She's the question isn't has china one. This isn't about trying to be china. This is about trying to climate change. It's about trying to beat pandemics. If we both strive to win been we could end up losing. It's not exactly a crazy suggestion. Rachel pointed out that the us and china work together in the past like during the sars outbreak in two thousand and three afterward they even came up with ten core principles of global pandemic response today. The us isn't worried about competition. It can't be bothered clean. Its own house and the problem with that is. This isn't the last global crisis we're going to face. And i wanna thank lisi healy for sharing podcast with us. That was the episode while we were sleeping from things that go boom. For more information check out lacey's website at instinct media dot com. And that does it for this episode of foreign policy playlist. If you like what you heard please subscribe if you wanna suggest a great podcast for us. We're all ears. You can email us at podcast at foreign policy dot com. If you wanna suggest a great podcast we are all ears. You can email us at podcast at foreign policy dot com and for more information about fps podcast website foreign policy dot com or. Join our facebook group. Today's show was produced by darcy. Polder rob sachs indiana from our theme. Music was composed by nolan schneider. I'm jonathan temperament. And i'll see you next week.