4 Episode results for "Steven Mintz"
Episode #31 Ethics In The Workplace: Dr. Steven Mintz
"You're listening to workplace perspective and Employment Law podcast presented by Sapphire Legal Orange. glaze perspective is a regular podcast series for employers and employees focusing on education training and the law to help organizations of all sizes the develop and maintain successful workplace relationships the opinions expressed by guests on workplace perspective. Do not necessarily reflect those of Sapphire illegal. Or it's attorneys. Et should not be considered legal advice. And now here's your host founder and principle attorney at Sapphire Legal Theresa McQueen. Thank you James and welcome everyone to workplace perspective where we are striving to raise the bar at workplaces everywhere today. We're talking with author and professor Dr Steven Mintz about ethics in the workplace. They call Dr Mintz. The ethic sage and I can't wait to hear what sage advice. Ace yes I went there. He has to share with us on this very timely topic. It's going to be a great show. Don't go away. We'll be right back. The opinions expressed by guests on workplace perspective respective do not necessarily reflect those of Sapphire legal. Or it's attorneys. Ed should not be considered legal advice. You're listening to workplace perspective and Employment Law podcast gas presented by Sapphire legal. Welcome back to our listeners and welcome to workplace perspective. Dr Mintz thank you so every night. We're super excited but Before we get started. Let's do what we do. And have you tell our listeners. A little bit about what you do who you are and what you do. Well thank you You mentioned I write right under the name. Ethics sage sickly is my way of saying. I've accumulated a lot of wisdom over the years and we said like to think so With respect to ethics having taught it at the university level for thirty plus years and consulted with some companies on ethics issues issues and I just published a book on ethics deals with Happiness and meaning in life and how being ethical person yes and can improve your personal relationships workplace interactions and our lives on social media. That's Great I. I totally agree with that. It so it's difficult but it always feels good to do the ethical thing to do the right thing before we get started And as we join into our you you don't kind of into our topic Why don't you I kind of tell us what you mean? When you talk about ethical behavior in a workplace context? We'll actually we have to to start with what ethics is in general because the workplace. It's just one outlet for behavior but in general wiki go back to the golden within rule. And how do we treat other people Most people would agree that being kind compassionate fair minded respectful respectful of others are good ways to act ethical ways to act so we start with that and then we put it in the workplace context. We're talking talking. About how companies treat their employees and other stakeholders how they make decisions whether they consider the consequences for quences of their actions on those who will be affected by those actions. Okay so as you're talking talking I'm kind of thinking it's like. It's it's more than a moral compass. Would you agree with that or no. Well I think you have to have a moral compass. If for no other reasons ventoux recognize there are ethical issues because if we don't recognize it and that's part of the problem I think today not only in the workplace but society to people recognize they even have an ethical issue which again we could say is sure your actions and decisions affect others so how you treat them is an ethical issue but a lot of ethics is common sense as well. I mean we shouldn't shout at people people in the workplace because we have a difference of opinion we should be able to discuss our differences openly with variety. Of course this is something. That's the problem in society in general today. Oh I agree. I do civility training and and it's near endured my heart that topic as well and and I I really agree. It is common sense but it's funny. How many times we need to be reminded about you? Know about about the basic sort of things and always teaching my Any harassment trainings that one way to combat unethical behavior were harassing retaliatory discriminatory conduct is to impart to employees to train to teach on the power of ethical behavior. And how you can stem those behaviors by creating more ethical workplace In in that regard. Let's let's jump into it. How do you think well? I'm curious about this. Do you think that you can teach ethics to an organization. I say that because I do think that through their employees you can Dan but I'm talking about the structure the the entity that is the organization. Do you do you think you can teach ethics to the structural organization innovation. Well I always get those questions from students. Stay at some of them. Don't believe I teach ethics to them so and I say look I could teach it whether you'll learn it or not is another issue absolutely so you can certainly teach it at the organizational level level. But you have to have an open minded leadership that they want to learn these things evaluate their own behavior and systems and be open to changing to have ethical organization because they are after all the leaders in the workers are GonNa take their cue from what the leaders. Yeah Yeah. I agree with that. We've talked about that on on a lot of our shows With regard to employee engagement and corporate culture and all that kind of stuff and I think that ethic ethic just ethics just sort of around itself sort of into that How do you have you found the organization sort of come to the realization in your experience? Have you had an experience. I guess where organizations have sort of come to the realization that hey I think we have an issue that needs to be addressed What are those beyond the beyond the obvious? You know being sued for unethical behavior but on a on a more. Oh you know sort of everyday average situation if you have you come across any scenarios like that. Sure it's usually when the organization have systems in place for employees to report things that they think are unethical. Something going wrong in the company company you mentioned sexual harassment. That's certainly a good example. Love it and employees have to feel that they won't don't be retaliated against for making these assertions whether it's sexual harassment or financial statement when fraud so what employees tend to look for is what we call an ethical tone at the top meaning. A culture is said that the company takes this seriously and they can set that tone simply through policies. Simply by acting leans away. They're asking the employees act. You know it's not do. Would I say not what I do. Not that kind of culture. So it's it's you know it's measuring an ethical culture is. How do you do business rather than what you do in business? So how you do. It says a lot about your ethical standards and absolutely companies can come to that realization but it usually usually means they have Ethical leaders at the top. Yeah I I I agree I you and I think ascribed to Sorta the same philosophy that it's really ethics really comes down to kind of what you do when nobody's watching it and I think that even for organizations innovations they think people are always watching but I don't think that's the case. Do you know I think people in organizations tend to think Unfortunately they can get away with things because people are not watching or what. Their behavior is the actions they take are not GonNa get become known of course these days with social so media The twenty four seven cycle digital media. Most things do eventually get uncovered. But maybe companies haven't come to that realization illustration yet but that's when they get into trouble and that's of course Something that they have to prevent it just a matter of sending a message that ethical behavior will be rewarded. Unethical behavior will not be rewarded. May Be punished for it now how you do that. An example of the devil is in the details but it can't be done through performance evaluation just incorporating unethical measure That that sort of thing that idea about about sort of creating an atmosphere that really makes it easy to do the right thing and kind of difficult all to do the wrong thing. I think. That's that's kind of what you're saying as well and I like that because it it really does make it easier so that when someone if you can create that that environment that really does create this this idea that when someone does behave in an unethical manner they sort of stand out from the crowd and it makes it easy to shine a light on that person and say okay you. Here's our issue and we need to address it. So employees tend to act the way they think they will be rewarded whether it's producing large amount of sales market share or being ethical so just have to put ethics on that same. Yeah Yeah because the flip side of that right. Is that those very same things. The desire for reward the desire for recognition thought got. That's also a gateway or an alleyway towards unethical behavior. Don't you think well it can be and the one thing I always. He's reluctant to say about reward. Ethical behavior is we should be ethical. Because it's the right thing to do because it makes us feel good about about what we've done. We've helped somebody We've we've we've done things that have produced positive results for the company and unethical behavior. You generally does not in the short term it will in the long term. Tend to catch up with you so yeah I think that's very important. I I read the survey that that said that companies that when a company sort of values ethical performance That misconduct is lowered. Which I as? I've already kind of scribe arrive to that because I think that's a way to get rid of unwanted risk sort of behaviors but I think the survey was something like twenty percent of the workers you know had had reported seeing misconduct in companies with strong ethical cultures compared to eighty eight percent who witnessed wrongdoing companies with ethically week cultures and with that kind of in my what do you see as some of the more common ethical danger zones from a company perspective Well there's there's quite a few of them. It's the tone at the top that I mentioned before that top management is always sending this message about ethical behavior. Companies need to stress. A sort of what I would call stakeholder capitalism rather than shareholder old capitalism which is the addition on the ocean to maximize profits if employees see that companies care about a broad group all stakeholders including of course themselves their own. Well being that they're treated fairly but also customers customer comes first that sort of mentality -ality dealing with suppliers and other stakeholders that tends to give a lot of confidence of employees. That the company is Sir Chris About Ethical behavior. And we're going to take our cue from that Companies have to avoid basically what I would say he is rationalizing unethical behavior. That happens a lot especially in the field that I grew up in which is accounting and in financial reporting where they put pressure on an employee to go along with financial wrongdoing and they basically say look. This is a one time request. Just go along this first time this one time. We won't ask you to do it again. Well rarely does it work that way. Because why don't you go along with wrongdoing you start to slide down the proverbial ethical slippery slope where it becomes more difficult to turn around. And let's say we claim the moral high ground. Yeah absolutely absolutely. Well we are. Time is going fast. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back more thoughts from Dr Men's Don ecobill ethical behavior in the workplace. Stay with us. We'll be right back I'm more resourceful than I thought. My suit can still still make an impression. My Video Games are still game. Changers and my lamp can bring others a bright future because when I donate my stuff to goodwill helps find job placement in training for people right in my community. Now my stuff gets a second chance and we'll give someone in my community a second chance too goodwill donate stuff create jobs. They find your nearest donation center at Goodwill Dot Org. That's goodwill dot org this message brought to you by goodwill and the Ad Council. If you enjoyed today's show you do this. Sheriff's like us. Give us a review on your favorite podcast APP. It sure means a lot to us in an insurance that more people tune in and raise the bar at workplaces everywhere. Welcome back everyone rewind. We're talking about ethical behavior in the workplace with author and professor. Dr Steven Mintz so doctor. Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the challenges that employees Louise's face when it comes to ethical behavior in the workplace Start out by telling me if you can what your experience has been as some some of the more difficult scenarios involving employees that you've uncovered or for or been exposed to over the years I would say that stands out. The most is when their superior does something wrong and they struggle over how to report it. Nobody nobody wants to tattle tale on their superior. We like to think we're loyal and employees. Worry about what's going to happen to them. There's an expression kill the Messenger. So the employee is the Messenger. Hey look this. Person Stole Money from the company or is patting his her expensive account and being reimbursed for non employees expenses. Should I report it to the head of accounting or whoever. There's real a few there that they will suffer the consequences. I get a lot of emails from employees who send me confidential. Oh questions and I try to help them. And that's clearly number one and of course companies have to say that they want these things to to be reported they WANNA take action. They don't want somebody feeling from them in a position of trust. Maybe they set up an anonymous hotline that that oftentimes works with whistle blowing in general. So it's the retaliation factor Another thing that I hear from time nine. The time is employees or employees goop will complete a project. They'll do some work. They'll handle report to their superior. Sure who they are doing the work for and he or she will take credit. Oh please work terribly here he they they hate that they They're they're beside themselves. They don't know what to do they just know it's wrong but there again. If you have a superior does these sort of things you can say to yourself. What will he or she do if I report them so again it comes back to the company culture and wanting these things to be reported? It's so corrective action can be taken The other item I'd mentioned is is a lot of confusion out there for employees as about what are the rules of the road with social media. Can they use social media work. When can they use it What can an employer do you to monitor their behavior and their activities The rules really have not caught up with the technology and some companies have no social social media policies or establish social media ethics. So they're they're confused they just don't know what can and cannot be done. So that's about the third one. I would say that I hear. The most of the social media is interesting. So they've been litigating or litigating during my career when it was sort of the advent of social media and and it becoming such a big part of the workplace and it really was confusing for everyone both the employers and the employees. Because you're right. Nobody knew what was going on the technology far outweighed. Everybody's getting getting up to speed on it. I think it's getting better. It's getting easier Everybody's becoming a little more comfortable with it and the boundaries are getting a little more defined and like anything there's been enough litigation now people are starting to get a handle on it but the confusion and the and the fear Palliation. I hear that a lot Because I get calls from employees asking about what do I do like the like. You said the the moral wrong of somebody took credit for my work and then of course the more serious allegations where there's actually been and implication of fraud or something Where they feel this tremendous need to step forward word and yet there's that fear so that was interesting when you were talking in the beginning about ethics in general about being you know that it took being kind and all these other things and I thought you know what it takes takes being strong because it takes a lot to you know to really face? It's easy for us to talk. Talk about but boy when you're in that situation it's really tough to to sort of stand up. Tell me in your opinion. What do you think employees can do due to help improve the standards of ethics at their organization beyond Beyond the you know alerting and using the hotlines Ryan's in those sorts of things. But what can they. What's in their control? You think do you think that they can. They can actually help to make a positive impact. I always always tell them to find somebody at work who they really respect and can go to for advice because it's it's always a good the thing to run your ideas by somebody before you take an action or report something now. That may be easier said than done. I you know. A lot of organizations do have people who can advise on actions. It may be formal or informal Emma. So that's that's very important. I think of all the things that I I say to employees is to remember this one one thing. which is it takes a long time to build a reputation for trust but not very long to destroy it absolutely? We know we have to think of as people like Harvey Weinstein Bernie made off Lance Armstrong. There is so many examples of people who are at at the top of their game and then something came out that was of course terrible and you know they destroy your reputation never the same again. They never you've viewed the same by society right so ethics is a long term commitment. Sure I may be able to do something. Get Away with it maybe even profit it but in the long run. Even if it doesn't come out What am I going to continue to go down this road? What if somebody does find out? They questioned me. My whole reputation has gone. Trust is essential in business. If you can't trust employees to do the right thing then then you can't trust them to do anything. Yeah I always talk about that in my in my ethics trainings. The fact that you know well in your personal life you may not really they care what people think of you which is great. If you can get to that point but in business you have to care it matters what people think of you if you WanNa if you WANNA get ahead head You know if you WanNa have a good reputation than it really does matter and I think ethics plays a huge a huge part of that credibility. Is Everything you know. Your word really is is your bond is kind of Corny as it sounds but that's true. Sure where do you think can. Can you pinpoint a time where you think that ethics really started to sort of become an awareness issue for organizations and employees alike. Mike Oh gee that's a great question It's so hard I think a lot of people feel it's a relatively relatively new phenomenon. I don't agree with that. I think we've been losing our moral compass over a long period of time now We could go back to the fact that ethics is for the most part. It's not taught in schools anymore kids in the younger grades where they're most impressionable. They're not getting it. That's partly because teachers don't WanNa feel like them moralizing. There may be afraid of what what they say. It may be taken the wrong way or a parent complains that somehow it's religious instruction talking about religious instruction most most people are not as religious today as they were so they're not getting it school. They're not getting it to religious practices. Probably not being talked about back home. There are very few role models around these days. I remember when I grew up. There were a lot it was even even on TV. A lot of those old shows always had unethical message right from the truth today so I think that's been the evolution and of the culture that it's just been devalued over time and we sort of normalized on ethical behavior sure Any civility has become normalized. How many times we see that on? TV Cable News. Wherever you you want to look so there are no positive? Examples or very few of why ethics is important why an individual organization should be ethical. Except as you say after they've done the deed and they're having to pay the price and all of a sudden ethics is important. Let's develop a code of ethics. Let's do this. Let's do that. You have to be proactive with ethics not reactive to get the positive result. Yeah I I agree with with all that. It's it's such an interesting. I love this topic. It's it's we could go on and on but as we wrap up for today can you sort of give us maybe some tips a cautionary tale some words of wisdom. Or maybe your thoughts for the future on on this idea India ethics in the workplace Sure sure I think one thing I always tell Students employees think before. Oh you act always have it in the back of your mind that you should live by the mantra. Do No harm harm. Nobody by your actions indeed. This is one of three things so this is thinking before acting doing no harm and considering the consequences of your decision so I didn't tell my students and employees. Let's say you just had a negative encounter with somebody in the workplace. You want to set off you know you wanna go to your computer. Go to social media. sendoff is- insulting tweet. Oh let's get a feel so good though. Oh I know my point so I tell them to send that tweet to themselves in an email communication overnight and and then we feel the same way go ahead and do it but a lot of people. They change their mind cause cooler heads will prevail. I love it because most of the time they tell. Oh You oh you know type it up and leave it but what you're saying is you get that great satisfaction of hitting the send button which is really what you wanted to do. But you're sitting at to yourself. So Oh that's that's awesome. I love that. I love that piece of advice. Well that's our show for today at documents on a thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your insights sites and you're sage sage advice on ethics. We really appreciate it in a pleasure if you WANNA learn more about professor moments in his new book unhappiness in meaning transform Birmingham through ethical behavior. You can find information on documents at his on his website at Steven Mintz ethics dot com. You can also connect to Dr Men's the our website at Sapphire legal dot com slash podcast and clicking on episode. Thirty one Dr Mintz Let me just spell out that last name name. Because I don't want anybody to to not be able to find you. It's S. T. E. V. E. N. M. I. N. T. Z.. ETHICS DOT COM. I want to also think our listeners. Thank you I want to also think our listeners. My Radio Angels James and the nave at night and workplace perspectives team. extraordinaire engineer and producer.
Episode #31 Ethics In The Workplace: Dr. Steven Mintz
"Emerging technologies are transforming the healthcare industry as we know it investors say hello to h tech a portfolio dedicated to capturing the significant growth potential show of healthcare innovation learn more at Robo global dot com. Slash H. T. E. C.. Your you're listening to workplace perspective and Employment Law podcast presented by Sapphire legal workplace. Perspective is a regular podcast series for employers and employees. He's focusing on education training and the law to help organizations all sizes develop and maintain successful workplace relationships. The opinions expressed by guests on workplace perspective. Do not necessarily reflect those of Sapphire legal or it's attorneys. Egg should not be considered legal advice. And and now here's your host founder and principle attorney at Sapphire Legal Theresa McQueen. Thank you James. And and welcome everyone to workplace perspective where we are striving to raise the bar at workplaces everywhere. Today we're talking author and professor Dr Steven Mintz about ethics in the workplace. They call Dr Mintz the ethics sage. And I can't wait to hear what sage advice. Yes I went there. He has to share with us on this very timely topic. It's going to be a great show. Don't go away. We'll be right back. The opinions expressed by guests on workplace perspective. Do not necessarily reflect those of Sapphire legal. Or it's attorneys. Ed should should not be considered legal advice. You're listening the workplace perspective and Employment Law podcast presented by Sapphire legal. Welcome back to our listeners and welcome welcome to workplace perspective Dr Mintz. Thank you for having me. We're super excited but before we get started. Let's do what we normally do. And have you tell our listeners. A little a bit about what you do who you are and what you do. Well thank you You mentioned I write under the name ethic. Say the Cui is my way of saying. I've accumulated a lot of wisdom over the years and we said like to think so with respect to ethics having taught it at the university level for thirty plus years and consulted with some companies on ethics issues and I just published a book on ethics. It deals those with Happiness in medium life and how being ethical person can improve your personal relationships workplace interactions and our lives on social media. That's great. I totally agree with that. So it's difficult but it always feels good to do the ethical thing to do the right thing before we get started And as we join into our jump kind of into our topic Why don't you I kind of tell us what you you mean when you talk about ethical behavior in a workplace context? We'll I think we have to start with what ethics is in general because the workplace is just us one outlet for behavior but in general wiki. Go back to the golden rule and how we treat other people Most people would agree that being kind compassionate fair minded respectful of others are good ways to act ethical ways to act so we start with that and then when you put it in a workplace context we're talking about how companies treat their employees and other stakeholders how they make decisions whether they consider the consequences of their actions on those who will be affected. Okay so as you're talking. I'm kind of thinking it's like. It's it's more than a moral compass. Would you agree the or no. Why think you do have to have a moral compass? If for no other reason than to recognize there are ethical issues because if we don't recognize recognize it and that's part of the problem I think today not only in the workplace society. Do people recognize. They even have an ethical issue. Which again we say is sure your actions and decisions affect others so how you treat them is an ethical issue but a lot of ethics is common sense as well? I mean. We shouldn't shout people in the work place. Because we have a difference of opinion we should be able to discuss our differences openly with realty. Of course this is something. That's the problem in society in general today. Yeah I agree do civility training and and it's near and dear to my heart. That topic is well and and I I agree. It is common sense but it's funny. How many times we need to be reminded about you? Know about the basic sort of things and always teaching my Any harassment trainings that one way to combat unethical behavior or harassing retaliatory discriminatory conduct is to you impart to employees to train to teach on the power of ethical behavior. And how you can stem those behaviors by creating a more ethical workplace In in that regard. Let's let's jump into it. How do you think well? I'm curious about this. Do you think that you can teach ethics to organization. I say that because I I do. I think that through their employees. You can but I'm talking about the structure the the entity that is the organization. Do you do you think you can teach ethics to the the structural organization. Well I always get those questions from MM students. Some of them don't believe I could teach ethics to them so and I say look I could teach it whether you'll learn it or autism another issue absolutely so you can certainly teach it at the organizational level but you have to have an open minded leadership that they want to learn these things evaluate their own behavior and systems and be open to changing to have ethical organization because they are after all the leaders in the workers again that take their cue from what two leaders do and say yeah. I agree with that. We've talked about that on on a lot of of our shows With regard to employee engagement and corporate culture and all that kind of stuff and I think that ethic just ethics to sort of rounds itself. Sort of into that How do you have you found that organization sort of come to the realization in your experience? Have you had the experience. I guess where organizations have sort of come to the realization that hey I think we have an issue that needs to be addressed What are those beyond the beyond the obvious being sued for unethical behavior? But on a on a more you know sort of everyday average situation have have you come across any scenarios like that sure. It's usually when organizations have systems in place for employees employees to report things that they think are unethical. Something going wrong in the company you mentioned sexual harassment. That's certainly a good example example of it and employees have to feel that they won't be retaliated against for making these assertions whether it's sexual harassment or financial statement fraud so what employees tend tend to look for is what we call an ethical tone at the top meaning. A culture is said that the company takes this seriously and then they can set that tone simply through policies simply by acting the way they're asking the employees act you know it's not what do what I say not what I do not that kind of culture. So it's you know it's measuring an ethical culture is. How do you do business rather than what you do in business? So how you do it says a lot about your ethical standards emds and absolutely companies can come to that realization but usually means they have ethical leaders at the top. Yeah I I agree. I you and I think ascribed to sort of the same philosophy that it's really ethics really comes down to kind of what you do when nobody's watching and I think that even though for organizations they think people are always watching. But I don't think that's the case do you. No I think people in organizations tend to think unfortunately that they can get away with things because people are not watching or what. Their behavior is the actions they take are not GonNa get become known of course these days with social media The twenty four seven cycle the digital media Most things do eventually get uncovered but maybe companies haven't come to that realization yet but that's when they get into trouble and that's of course Something that they have to prevent it just a matter of sending a message that ethical behavior will be rewarded. Unethical behavior will not be rewarded. May Be punished for it now. How you do that? It's an example of the devil's in the details. But it can be done To performance evaluation just incorporating unethical measure That sort of thing like that idea about A Ah about sort of creating an atmosphere that really makes it easy to do the right thing and kind of difficult to do the wrong thing. I think. That's that's kind of what you're saying as well and I like that because has it it really does make it easier so that when someone you can create that that environment that really does create this this idea idea that when someone does behave in an unethical manner they sort of stand out from the crowd and it makes it easy to shine a light on that person and say okay you. Here's czar issue and we need to address it so employees tend to act the way they think they will be rewarded whether it's producing large amount of sales market share or being ethical so just have to put ethics on that same level as other top priorities. Yeah because the flip side of that right what is that those very same things the desire for reward the desire for recognition that that's also a gateway or an alleyway towards unethical behavior. Don't don't you think well it can be and the one thing. I always am reluctant to say about reward. Ethical behavior is we should be ethical. Because it's the right thing to do because it makes us feel good idea about what we've done. We've helped somebody We've we've we've done things that have produced positive results for the company and unethical behavior. General he does not in the short term. It will in the long-term tend to catch up with you so yeah I think that's very important. I I read the survey that that said that companies that when a company sort of values ethical performance That misconduct is lowered. Which I as I've already said I? Kind of scribe to that. Because I think that's a way to get rid of unwanted risk sort of behaviors ears but I think the survey was something like twenty percent of the workers you know had reported seeing misconduct in companies with strong ethical cultures compared to eighty eight percent who witnessed wrongdoing and companies with ethically week cultures with that kind of what you see is some some of the more common ethical danger zones from a company perspective Well there's this quite a few of them. It's the tone at the top that I mentioned before that top management is always sending this message about ethical behavior. Companies need to stress US Sort of what. I would call stakeholder capitalism rather than shareholder capitalism which is the tradition on the ocean to maximize profits profit if employees see that companies. Care about a broad group of stakeholders including of course themselves their own. Well being that they're treated needed fairly but also customers customer comes first that sort of mentality Even dealing with suppliers and other stakeholders holders that tends to give a lot of confidence of employees that the company is serious about ethical behavior. And we're going to take our cue. I'm from that Companies have to avoid basically what I would say is rationalizing unethical behavior. That happens happens a lot especially in the field that I grew up in which is accounting and financial reporting where they put pressure on an employee to go along along with financial wrongdoing. And they basically say look. This is a one time request. Just go along this first time this one time. We won't ask you to do it again again. Well rarely does it work that way. Because why don't you go along with wrongdoing you start to slide down the proverbial ethical slippery slope where it becomes more difficult to turn around. And let's say we claim the moral high ground. Yeah absolutely absolutely. Well we are. Time is going fast. We're GONNA take a quick break and when we come back more thoughts from Dr Men's Don ecobill ethical behavior in the workplace. Stay with us. We'll be right back I'm more resourceful than I thought. My suit can still make an impression. Video Games are still game. Changers and my lamp it can bring others a bright future because when I donate my stuff to goodwill helps find job placement and training for people right in my community. Now my stuff gets a second chance it'll and we'll give someone in my community a second chance too goodwill donate stuff create jobs. Find your nearest donation center at goodwill dot. Org that's goodwill dot org this message message brought to you by goodwill and the Ad Council if you enjoyed today's show do this sheriff's like us give us a review on in your favorite podcast APP. It means a lot to us in an ensures that more people tune in and raise the bar at workplaces everywhere. Welcome back everyone. We're talking about ethical behavior in the workplace with author and professor Dr Steven even minutes so documents. Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the challenges that employees face when it comes to ethical behavior in the workplace Start out by telling me if you can what your experience has been as some of the more difficult scenarios involving employees that you've uncovered uh or for or been exposed to over the years The one that I would say that stands out the most is when their superior does something something wrong and they struggle over how to report it. Nobody wants to Tattletale on their superior. We like to think we're loyal and employees. Worry about what's going to happen to them. There's an expression kill the Messenger. So the employee is as the Messenger. Hey look this person stole money from the company or is padding his expense account and being reimbursed for non employees expenses expenses. Should I report it to the head of accounting or whoever this real fewer there that they will suffer the consequences. I get a lot out of emails from employees ease. Who Send me confidential questions and I try to help them and that's clearly number number one and of course companies have to say that they want these things to be reported they WANNA take action? They don't want somebody feeling from. I'm them in a position of trust. Maybe they set up an anonymous hotline. That oftentimes works with whistle blowing in general. So it's through through retaliation factor Another thing that I hear from time to time is employees or an employee goop will complete a project. They'll do some work. They'll handle report to their superior who they are doing work for and he or she will take credit. Ah Work. That's so terribly here. He they hate that they Beside themselves they don't know what to do they just know. I know it's wrong but again. If you have a superior does these sort of things you can say to yourself. What will he or she do if I report them so again it comes back to the company culture and wanting these things to be reported so corrective action can be taken The other item I'd mentioned is a lot of confusion out there for employees. About what are the rules of the road with social media. Can they use social media work. When can they use it What can an employer do to monitor their behavior in their activities of the rules really have not caught up with technology and some companies have no social media policies or establish social media the Ethics so don't confuse they just don't know what can and cannot be done. So that's about the third one I I would say that I hear the most of the social media is interesting. So I've been litigating or litigating during my career when it was sort of the advent of social media and it becoming such a big part of the workplace and it really was confusing for everyone both the employers and the employees. Because you're right. Nobody knew what was going on the technology far. Outweighed everybody's getting up to speed on it I do think it's getting better. It's getting easier Everybody's becoming a little more comfortable with it and the boundaries are getting a little more defined like anything there's been enough litigation now people we're kind of starting to get a handle on it but The confusion and the fear of retaliation. I hear that a lot Because I get calls from employees asking about what do I do like like. You said the the moral wrong of somebody took credit for my work and then of course the more serious allegations where there's has actually been an implication of fraud or something where they feel. This tremendous need to step forward and yet there's that fear so that was interesting when you were talking in the beginning about ethics in general about being you know that it took being kind and all these other things that I thought you know what it takes it takes being strong. That's true because it takes a lot to you know to really face. It's easy for us to talk about but boy when you're in that situation it's really tough to suit to sort of stand up. Tell me in your opinion. What do you think employees can do to help improve the standards of ethics at their organization and beyond Beyond the you know alerting and using the hotlines and those sorts of things but what can May. What's in their control? You think think do you think that they can. They can actually help to make a positive impact. I always tell them to find somebody at work who they really are. We respect and can go to for advice because it's it's always a good thing to run your ideas by somebody before you take in action or report something now that may be easier said than done you know a lot of organizations. Do have people bro. Who can advise on? Actions may be formal or Kim informal. So that's that's very important. I think evolved with the things that I say to employees is to remember this one thing. which is it takes a long time to build older reputation for trust but not very long to destroy it absolutely being all we have to think of people like Harvey Weinstein Bernie Madoff Lance Armstrong? There is so many examples of people who are at the top of their game and then something came out that was of course terrible herbal and you know they destroy their reputation and never the same again then have viewed the same by society right so ethics ethics is a long term commitment. Sure I may be able to do something. Get Away with it. Maybe even profit but in the long run even if it doesn't come out take what am I going to continue to go down this road. What if somebody does find out and then they questioned me? My whole reputation has gone trust. This is essential in business if you can't trust employees to do the right thing then you can't trust them to do anything. Yeah I always talk about that in my I in my ethics trainings. The fact that you know well in your personal life you may not really care what people think you which is great if you can get to that point but in business you have to care it matters what people think of you if you WanNa if you WANNA get ahead You know if you WanNa have a good reputation than it really does matter and and I think ethics plays a huge huge part of that could credibility is everything you know. Your word really is your bond is kind of Corny as it sounds but that's true. Sure where do you think. Can you pinpoint a time where you think that ethics really started had to sort of become an awareness issue for organizations and employees alike. Oh Gee that's a great question It it's so hard I think a lot of people feel it's a relatively new phenomenon. I don't agree with that. I think we've been. I'm losing our moral compass over a long period of time now We could go back to the fact that ethics this is for the most part. It's not taught in schools anymore kids in the younger grades where they're most impressionable. They're not getting it. That's partly Lee because teachers don't WanNa feel like them moralizing. There may be afraid of what they say. It may be taken the wrong way or a parent complains is that somehow it's religious instruction talking about religious instruction. Most people are not as religious today as they were so. They're not getting getting it school. They're not getting to religious practices. Probably not being talked about at home. There are very few role models around around these days. I remember when I grew up. There were a lot it was even on TV. A lot of those old shows always had unethical message passage right right from the truth today so I think that's been the evolution of the culture that it's just been devalued over time time and we sort of normalized on ethical behavior Any civility has become normalized alive. How many times we see that on? TV Cable News wherever you want to look so there are no positive examples or very few you of why ethics is important. Why an individual or an organization should be ethical? Except as you say after they've done the deed and they're having to you know pay the price and all of a sudden ethics is important. Let's develop a code of ethics. Let's do this. Let's do do that. You have to be proactive with ethics not reactive to get the positive result. Yeah I I agree with with all that. It's it's such an interesting. I I love this topic. It's it's we could go on and on but as we wrap up for today can you give us. Maybe some tips cautionary retail some words of wisdom. Or maybe your thoughts for the future on this idea of ethics in the workplace Sure sure I I I think one thing I always tell Students Employees Think before you act always have it in the back of your mind that right you should live by the mantra. Do No harm harm. Nobody by your actions the this is one of three things so this is thinking before acting doing no harm and considering the consequences of your decision so I even tell my students and employees. So let's say you just had a negative encounter with somebody in the workplace. You WanNa set off you know you wanna go to computer go to social media a sendoff. This insulting tweet. Oh let's get a feel so good though. I know my point so I tell them to send naturally to themselves in an email communication overnight and then you feel the same way go ahead and do it but a lot of people they change. The heads will prevail. I love it because most of the time they tell you. Oh you know type it up and leave it but what you're saying is you get that great satisfaction in hitting the send button is really what you want to do. But you're sitting at to yourself so that's that's awesome. I love that. I love that piece of advice. Well well that's our show for today at documents. Thank you so much for joining us today. And for sharing your insights and your sage sage advice on ethics. We really appreciate it if you WANNA learn more about professor moments in his new book unhappiness in meaning transforming your life through ethical behavior. You can find information on documents kamins at his on his website at Steven Mintz ethics dot com. You can also connect to Dr Men's via our website at Sapphire legal dot com slash Josh podcast and clicking on episode. Thirty one Dr Mintz Let me just spell out that last name. Because I don't want anybody to to not be able to find you. It's S. t. e. v. the N. M. I. N. T. Z.. ETHICS DOT COM. I want to also think our listeners. Thank you I want to also think our listeners. My Radio Angels James The nave at night and workplace perspectives team. extraordinaire engineer and producer. Paul Roberts our associate producer Michelle Hardy with music provided by the very talented Stephen Fever. Salani thank you all for joining us on workplace perspective and until next time keep raising the bar. Hi It's Jamie progressive's number one number. Two employee leave a message message at the. Hey Jamie it's me Jamie. This is your daily Pep Talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your acapella group mad harmony. But you will bounce back doc. I mean you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name your price tool it should be you giving me the pep talk. Now get out there. Hit that high note and take mad harmony all the way to nationals nationals this year sorry pitchy Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Pricing Coverage Match Limited by State Law. It's cutting into your exercise time. It stabbing having you in the back nine and it's attacking your peace of mind. It's pain and it's getting in between you and a life you want to live CD medic targets your pain at at its source. It's
Premier League Rolls On
"WOKE MEANS LASER VISION OF ESPN AFC here on ESPN. Plus I'm Dan. Thomas joined by Stevie Nickel Rolling Rolling. The show got Markazi will be here for last time in two thousand nineteen because his big takeaways from this season so far plus it finally looks like into Miami. emme have their new coach more later but I is starting to premier league host of matches today. I think the standout results leaving Norwich against pass fast to to once again spurs looking less than convincing. Yea Shetland a false For Thought Nori held the role knowledgeable team. The regardless of the results have been having the got Fi- and and particularly at home. They will go out and tried to to to do that with them. Plus should should've gone to all knowledge when goldenseal load but but the fact is the second half no question talk dominated again. They did to get two goals. which if you get two goals away from home against a relegation-threatened Sade? Yeah you should take all the points. Unfortunately the strangest. I mean just thing under under marina for me is that taught him since eighteen. Oh left have been a lot sharper in my opinion and looked a lot better going forward. Loyd which is not what you associate with Marina. Said's you associate Marino sage with stanton and keeping a tight. Well this taught them say that the bike and in my opinion are all over. The place completely changed his lane in the second half and it still didn't matter. Every knowledge went forward and the retain Norwich Space Base. It was panic stations at the bike for Taunton and unless he shortstop can forget. All for it doesn't as you say is Astana doesn't seem to be on this team at all know. How easy is that to fix? Is it just a matter of time. Get over this period. Get everyone together. I don't I don't believe that a lot of people say well what you need to do. Is You need to get your players on the training field and coach them having been in that position. Some things enj- players either company coached the past the best and in my opinion on the the new contract. I think he's passed these birds. I I certainly believe that the Pasta these best. No he has contracts run annot within. If you look at what else they have. You've got a rate bark basically an Oriole. Who's who's better going forward? And you've got another defender Sanchez. Who yes has piece but I think positionally he's all over the place so regardless us of whatever we lay whether it's a bikes or whether it's a back four which we saw today the struggle and unless they change the the personnel? I don't see how he's not going to continue to struggle. Defensively you mentioned the disallow. Go before we get to that. You take a look at the build up to the penalty that was awarded it should they have been found given the was a challenge from Lamella. The if you were to ask ten different from people you probably get five of face. Stevie now I don't think it's a phobia go this fifty percent. Why in you? I can only tom known and see the. He didn't get any of the ball when he made the challenge. Come and that's why for me. Have you can turn around and say it's a full then. You can't give a full so not obvious sense. You'd think as a toll no okay. Let's talk about the thing that if you've got twitter You know that it just exploded once again. With the second goal as you mentioned was disallowed. For offside it's very very close. But he was off Yup hip people screaming and shouting. It's ruining the game as things something has to be done. You need to be able to look at it all you need to just be able to look at it and if you can't see it from your naked eye then it should be given to the attacking side. Where do you stand on suspicion? The Var was brought and so that we could get the right decisions. Yeah Yep and this gives us the right decision because the technology sure the rookie is not a mile. No one hundred yards. He's he's inches off side but he's off site. So why are you a problem with. That's what the technologies therefore to show whether it's the rate results because we were complaining that we were there was too many occasions with the result. Was the wrong one affected the game. Well this one's right and people are still complaint arguing. The fact that it's such a miniscule amount it doesn't make a difference play. It should be allowed allowed to stand if you can sure that as regardless of as many school if you can show it's still in an offside position then again. Why argue against the that Schwartz Fall? There was a beautiful move. It was a great goal. It's ruining the beautiful game. Well I'm just saying this won't people. Well what do you want. People said the game name was being ruined and we needed technology because there were too many mistakes and with too many games the hinging on decisions right so no we get technology Collagen to help and I think we have to remember something you know. I always think of a young football player when you start off Flynn. There's a professional you like experience. You like composed in big moments you decision making as an always pefect. Perfect Lavar is. It's like a young professional. It's only just stop. People will only begin to get comfortable with and by the time that the experienced the instant. Hopefully we won't have all these all these complaints about again. The real point is when it's the right decision bright's it's the right decision regardless so finishes to in that game between Norwich and Spurs meaning the Manchester United had the opportunity to close the gap On Spurs it move up to fifth that with that win above Tottenham Hotspur now when Wagons Burnley won by two goals. So now you're telling me before Steve this performance impress you much more. Yes and the home victory against new costs which of course they won four one. Yeah I thought that she was a more all complete performance. The dangerous on the break. The shooter had more goals than they did. They gave Beaumont absolutely enough and I think I think they'd one show on target August was a was from what thirty odd steady five yards. They looked comfortable at no stage. Did I think Manchester United would not going to win. This game. Probably always way more impressed with this performance. The wars beating the Newcastle Sade. That just handed them the game last week. So why are they doing right that they haven't done in the past against these sort of teams. What's changed well? I think the problem is with teams at the Post. Beat which bundling are even away from home. The haven't luke dissolve the we're we're going to be able to break them down and in fact the looked under pressure as said I'm shocked at at school more than two goals because when Rochford was running when Moscow was running them we look to me is going to break them down and of course the took the game to them as well too many times away from home for me Mon United as much as we said the the counter attack you can't rely on going to uh-huh teams that you should be beaten. I don't think they did that today. I think they tried to go up only as often as possible and defensively we will rock solid. You talk about a team that makes you fight and challenge will bumbling made them fighting challenge and they stood up to it. He's more likely to finish. Talk for Spurs United Icons of that question but the the the two men the money united and talk them are not not in a position where we have an idea. What's going to happen when they step on the field right so to say it's going to be there are there is disingenuous? Because you don't know what you're GONNA get no money united. I would see the to look as though the beginning. He settled down a little bit more. But I'm not prepared to orange or yes yes it's going to be united So let's take a look at the standings once again shall we. Of course we saw some other big results including Everton Victory Everton with that wind today. It meaning that it is proven three collar too and so to get ahead to myself avenue moving into the top ten what that does mean as a call on chill altis got fifty premier league wins He's done it. The fifth fastest in the history of the League. It's in seventy seventy eight games to reach that landmark. Meanwhile the Balsam table West hammered taking on the city side that made nine changes but but yet they could only manage a two one loss. Manuel Pellegrini site today. As coach of the Amazon has they find themselves just one point above villa near allegations. Your home is important. That's why GEICO helps make it easy to save on Homeowner's insurance because home is is more than just a place home is where you curl up on the couch in a fetal position and cry at cheesy movies even though you've seen them a thousand times have all the lines memorized. You me with me and you. The GEICO Insurance Agency could help. Protect the tear-filled comfort zone. You Call Kohl GEICO and see how easy it is to switch and save on Homeowner's insurance the final surreal. Seventy thousand nine hundred is available to download over on the website and earlier earlier in the week and I spoke to his big takeaways about the season so far it's winter break now in its latest reminder having we stand top of the table level on points with forty two lacks in third Roy Moore for Atalanta in faith as we can Gab Markazi and so the show to reflect on what we've learned so far in two thousand nine thousand nine hundred and Gabon wanted to start with Atalanta absolutely look attacking. Football is is back in vogue in in Syria. I think fact I know. Only the Bundesliga has higher goals per game average and a lot of it is the trend. Trend Atlanta started. Perhaps a year ago under Gossiping They were the top fours and city last season or the top scorers in city. Again this season. What's remarkable about them as you don't need great individual players to play attacking football all that also yields results? The next time you see some doofus manager in mid-table talk about why you needed to play the eight one one formation and park three the buses are used to him. He says will help the quality you know what it's not about quality it's about formations. It's about mindset. They don't have the quality either. You've got Papa Gomez is phenomenal. And then you know you've got guys like ruled robbing Goossens. Martin Duran illegit can be special in his day. Mario Passage College. He's doing it with players and they're playing like superstars because the system works and these guys are much greater than the sum of their parts and they're talking walking in there having fun. Meanwhile how do we assess you've season so far. Well well what about you. This season is in. Is that the new. You've it looks a heck of a lot like the old you. We were expecting a revolution a different type of football. He said it wasn't going to be sorry ball. But certainly we didn't expect sort of a friend version of liberty. That's what we got at times turned around a little bit with when we get to see Gwen and and Rinaldo together. But this you've our top of the table so that sheer bloody mindedness and the individuals and the organization and all the stuff that they had under a legally not because of any great innovation the Saudi brought with them. Maybe that's innovation. He hasn't actually changed that many things. How does context report card? Read halfway through the season game what I learned again about coattail is that while we love to point out his inconsistencies as and complain about money and you can be Christ and he's obviously a very sore losers he himself has pointed out he genuinely makes players better Lukaku Martinez art simply better players than they were a year ago. Two years ago three years ago and he's able to get by in for a project by into what he wants to do from his team from fans and that's really important because increasingly increasingly if you're gonNA manage at the highest level you have to also be a salesman goes not just selling hot air. He's phenomenal individual coach. Meanwhile across time rivals. ANC Milan Twenty one point sitting in Eleventh Place Gab. What I learned here was that so the project was fine? You'RE GONNA go for young players. You're going to go for value signings. You'RE GONNA try to go for marginal gains you're going to try to gain efficiencies and whatever else but ultimately you also need a front office. That's that's on board on message and are good at what they do and the reality is neither neither bottle Mondini nor his volume. Your ball had ever held that rule those types of front office Wolf Disease Immune to China and football and I think they paid a pretty hefty price and I think the lesson. There is a if you're going to have a plan get somebody who also perhaps as experienced in writing that the plan is well enough before we get into the issue of the manager which is kind of fixed with purely but obviously you wasted all the time time with jump out of the four that we'll round things up with Napoli gap. Well the lesson learned here is A. Ah It's all about economics than that on the service kind of these no longer than Napoli Manager for one reason but in reality it's other reasons not just the fact that they were doing poorly in the league. It's the fact that getting back getting back up the table in the League league and having a rotten at the top four is more valuable financially to Napoli especially Napoli in this situation with all those players going out on a contract from K.. Hey Hunt others told that they can leave at a certain price. Like Kula. Bali and Allan this whole sacking was a way to to save money to to to to go for for for another pot of gold and two into perhaps started rebuilding cycle without too many people noticing that it had begun on Napoli. Of course I'll feature game when we return in twenty twenty s say. Thank you very much for gap Napoli against into waterway to return in twenty trends. It's a game like the others live on. ESPN plus that matched by the way to forty five eastern Monday January now. Of course this week that is now confirmed said into Miami apparently according to ESPN AFC sources. And it's very close to a done deal regarding diego along so to be their new coaches of course a man who wanNA CONCACAF Champions League with Pachuca back. In two thousand seventeen I'm Monterrey array in two thousand and nine teen so he will much probably being charged for into Miami's opening game. Which of course we'll be live on? ESPN ESPN AGAINST NFC. That's much first at five thirty eastern preceding matt the defending champion Seattle sounders against Chicago Fire Three PM Eastern there are such favorites to win the League. You'd have to put twenty dollars on to win one dollar there in action and of course tomorrow to other games value also Chelsea City Sheffield United. But let's start channel. We seem beaten so found it season. And that's what obviously the next question if they do the whole campaign unrepeatable also date oops possible banana-skin Had this been away from from home. I would say maybe I just don't think of Liverpool. We're going to lose again is going to be at home right. Haven't played onfield having played in front of that that recall the supporters. You never feel as the anything's insurmountable. Show listen if the if something was to go wrong to begin with. You always feel as you're getting a buck if they're gonNA lose as going to be away from home I just don't see. I don't see the Malaysian at home. I do see them drawn against Wolves Iowa. I see this as another victory for Liverpool. You've got of course what was coming to this game off extraordinary win against Manchester City of sound discussion about that second goal. Which of course rory robbed the ball from from Benjamin mandate up some suggesting that if many went down? It's a foul well. Many kids seem referees when a situation late similar similar to that arises the cliff with for any contact full Zoeller. Everybody was yup this one slightly different for me. Yes trailer is going towards Mandy Cindy but Mandy and trying to hold them off the ball back into him so the so the initiation of the contact is coming from Mandy Windy and for me. That's why it's not a free kick and for me. That's why. The referee made the right decision. Based mendy goes down the reference. A freak if many goes down the majority of the teams aims to referee will give the free kick the fact that it didn't go down probably went against them. He should have gone down. I play of that experience. You know what you should have done. I should've stuck his big tool through the ball and kicked over the stand and then ask questions later. That's how this whole thing was avoidable. Be Interesting to see cities reaction Shin then there are mentioned against Sheffield United big favorites going into this game. What sort of city do you expect us to see? I'll be shocked to The city was seen all of this season team. That will go forward team that will create a team. That will probably score But you'll see a team that when you lose the ball and the bolts turned over the opposition this team Sheffield United again after them though bill pilot. So I'm I'm expecting exactly what I've seen all season. Meanwhile of course me give out data in charge of also against Chelsea Chelsea go into this game as favorites and I know you said said earlier in the week Stevie you believe that Chelsea will indeed take all three points a friend this game. That's the big game south of the border. Meanwhile in Scotland Rangers against Celtic Celtic against Rangers. The Old Darby five points separate some of the top of the table I just want to remind everyone that stevie up a big rangers Fan Yep Before we get your Pay For this one. Well I'm when you play professionally. You flee the same team and so she shorts piece of time because the couple but he's pleading to cut last week. It's very unusual that one team once twice right unusual it really. Oh Yes oh and the show little between these two sites the I think ranges are gonna come on Air Baradei's just this radio tells you you watch going. We'll see what happens in five. No lose up so he can sell granges. Yeah right that's it and in and just a reminder tomorrow will be. We'll be looking back at that much. Plus discussing the big gains in the primary link. Steve Nichols off Robeson with me in the studio. What a treat? What went into extra-time Steve Niccolo glasses exile? Would you ever go to bed. I stick mine in the side of his now. Spent two right. I'm late Rawson. I'll take the asleep and then the whole Shebang appreciate it. What would be more impressive for Liverpool and invincible for Munich season? Four Premiere League Champions Take Dublin Camping domain yet. That's more the difficulties rule undefeated the whole season is. I'll tell you though. One team has an against them. I don't feel Hungry Years Playa. Surely you'd want to another trophy them being invincible. I'm surprised you even a discussion l.. Show now you prefer to the whole so you would lose the next round. He'd lose them thank. You don't have to lose. You could lose. You can lose the foul. Oh great see lose in the final four hold on a second right Liverpool City Champions League before Yes yes right right ever GonNa hold her. Many other teams in the interest of the game began of done as a fan I would. I would much prefer for to win win title than go in Vince. I think it's hard to go through all season on defeating. Talk to win a cup competition for yourself so you prefer that as a player you know I could sit here and I'll give you that the when important. No are you roll all right now. Listen if somebody wants to see your season buy your bread. Ball has to be the most important the Lee believe yes but invincible. You don't get extra points extra special thing you will be spoken about next year's put nobody else you'll you'll get you'll get a little lying near the you say that you again. If you ward won five titles Liverpool on a European Cup you trade that European in for an invincible sees. Yeah we did. We did them for you. No no I understand history of the game. It's only one right fishing. Look how I wonder how also fans field why would they traded invincible run for the winning events up Mount Phenomenon. I think they would go. No you know what we retain China's name but maybe I'm wrong. Let us know at Hispanic Z.. Really hate the frequency of the festive pictures or is it just something that manage. Just give me something an exclusive cover the box a bet on June. I don't think HDFS it's something you've always done. You've always been involved in. That happens every Moore's levels so I I don't remember I don't remember plan right. So as Feuerbach's which Combo prefer Kafue Maldini say some lines about four alarmed hasn't thirteen Collini Alvis fifteen lifting or Alexandrov. We can put killing off to try again. He's out of the problem. The problem to try and Wilson is the stock. But that's the biggest problem when you think of the careers and their longevity of Copter Maldini to see this gopher Rowlinson Alley on the Kasimov. You Need Food Mall Dini do along the way. The games played by Toby over with John. Do Without Maldini Manila surfing the region with no Aleksandra Donald. Thank you. I will have totally go with through and Malvinas again today to dismiss in live rashes finish. Tonight's thanks describe the SCRUFFY EST go. You've ever smelled Russia. I can't remember ever fallen over in. That could petting something going. I actually went to school. The hot object against Newcastle. And the fuss want right from my Yondo. Mainly misstep well because I just missed a misjudged. The ball obviously expecting to bowl just to come off the grabbed a little okay and so ended up actually in Britain and we'd be stopped by bully but again ruled good look to be Who Watch yourself much now? You don't have a couple of bud sit back. Put on Youtube. Steve Nichols greatest moments now. What's more difficult playing snowing raining police north? But I can't see you can see through. Did you like bringing the rain. The Difference Between Plan and the rain and just straight down as completely different blowing sideways shade with his way of life swollen. Yeah you know on a sigh of the around around four fairly under the floodlights is going down. And it's where the both the bowl fire them fantastic. Yeah it comes straight down. The wind along with chicken wins or boneless wings. Bonus I come to with the nonsense I will not. I would eat chicken. Golden Fried Chicken Wings. I could not see all this nonsense sitting down. You can get up to your stuffing at the hawk. Okay so you got focus. I've ever been boneless aboard on a million ball as leads us into our laws. Stevia was outbreak of mad cow disease. What would you eat Steven Mintz browbeat? What were the top gear? Chicken Hashtag Chick-fil-a I start ticking. I'm guessing chicken boneless chicken then. Good stuff brings me to another extra time. Just remind I'll be back tomorrow. Shirt Robson will be joining me in studio asking me invincible against the European Cup on us a good show. It'll be interesting. You do good idea yes.
What Makes a Good Marriage?
"Hi i'm elise linen co host with gwyneth of the goop podcast. Today's guest is eli finkel before we get to our conversation. I wanna thank our funds at fitbit. Who helped make today's episode possible the wellness team at goop. We talk a lot about the interconnectedness of a person's health higher sleep. Pack eating your eating habits due to your skin with the appearance of your skin can do your stress levels and the list goes on. It's a lot to taken and keeping track of all your habits can be overwhelming to say the least if you're in a place like me when you can barely remember what day of the week it is. It's easy to lose sight and get stuck in a less than ideal routine. In an effort to streamline this i started using a fitbit sense a smartwatch that translates your data into simple and personalized actions for all aspects of your health like nutrition. Tippety sleep and stress for me. It's been hopeful as a mindfulness tool away to learn about my body to bring awareness to my habits with very little effort on my part best of all. you don't need to be tech savvy. It's easy to use right out of the box. And when you purchase a fitbit sense smartwatch and now comes with six months of fitbit premium to learn more about the fitbit sense had to fit bit dot com. Don't hold anything too tightly. Just wish for it want it. Let it come from the intention of real truth for you and then let it go. Soul is like it's unbound. It's limitless but we will use words to limit ourselves when people stop believing that somebody's got your back or coming we turn to ourselves and that's where you become. Empowered courageous participation attracts positive things. I'm going to paltrow. This is the goop podcast bringing together. Thought leaders culture. Changers creatives founders. Ceos scientists doctors healers and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Today is no exception a letter. Least fill you in on her extraordinary guest all right over to elise aliko as a professor of psychology at northwestern university and author of the bestselling book the all or nothing marriage a fascinating. Look what makes a marriage fulfilling. When he set out to write this book he thought it was going to be a pessimistic. Take on marriage since we're asking more and more of our partnerships but not investing any more time in them and then invariably winding up unhappy and dissatisfied. But he says the story ended up being much more interesting than that. Today we talk about non monogamy and relationships the types of conversations he believes key partnerships thriving. And all the ways our perceptions of what makes an ideal marriage have time. I've never been able to square this that that on the one hand. The decision is is sort of faial that that you're going to say now that i'm thirty. I know that this is the person i want to be with. When i'm eighty we're going to have cancer diagnoses. We're going to have money troubles. We're going to have a toddler with a learning disability. Like do we really think we know enough about a week function as a pair to know that we'll be able to deal with other situations. The answer is no okay. Let's get to my chat with. Eli ankle as a married person. I thought your fascinating in part. Because i sort of i picked up thinking i'm going to get some concrete marriage tips here and you do provide those. But i loved the first half or even two thirds of the book and the way that it contextualized us partnerships and the way that they have so perceptibly changed and yet kind of unremarkable. It's not something we really think about or talk about right. It's sort of this. It almost has drag on us. I feel like as we go through the evolutions of marriage. We're not aware of like the larger or some of us may be. I'm not aware of always of the larger contextual framework so it was really interesting to sort of. Have you take us back. So you sort of explain the three phases or or sort of light stages of marriage sure. And i and i share your view that we happen to arrive at a particular cultural and historic moment and this is just what marriages and we have these assumptions about what. What's possible within a marriage. What's insane but marriage completely taboo and it turns out that when you adopt a broader lens. There's a lot of flexibility about how people will have managed this stuff over time. The book focuses mostly on marriage in the us and it reviews the last four hundred years of marriage going back to colonial times. And the argument is i and this largely comes from historians and sociologists. The argument is that the the first wave of marriage which you know from the sixteen hundreds till about eighteen. Fifty or so really. Wasn't anything like what we think today. It wasn't primarily about love wasn't even primarily about the emotional fulfilment of the individuals spouse's life was far too fragile. for that people died in infancy. They died in childbirth day died of disease. They died of hunger. And so you might have thought was a good guy. But i don't really want to marry him. Because i don't feel it in my fingertips and would laugh at you. So this was like the the pragmatic era were life was in a very literal sense about things like food clothing and shelter and then the second wave starting with the industrial revolution starting around eighteen fifty really reaching its peak around nineteen in the nineteen fifties is an era where love becomes dominant for sure marriages still about practical things and the monetary relationship and those things but increasingly people. Don't marry for those things released. Don't want to say they married for things and so love becomes essential and there's a particular version of it that that became prominent in america. Which would some people call the breadwinner. Homemaker love based way of approaching marriage and the idea was that men and women are at their essence. Different and men belong in this professional sphere and women belong in the domestic sphere and again in the nineteen fifties they basically nailed it. They'd been trying to get this this vision for a long time and in the nineteen fifties large swath of the country. Finally were able to live in that life where the woman stayed home and tended to the household and the the brood and the men went off and went to work and everybody thought this was going to be the end of marital history and then they ended up unhappy. Which brought us to the third era which i date to about nineteen sixty five where yes people still care about. Love they you know. I think this is still in the third era. We wouldn't marry somebody that we don't love but love is no longer sufficient. It's no longer the be all end all and it wouldn't be shocking to hear our protagonist say dave's a good man and i love him and he's a good father but i feel stagnant in this relationship and the passion isn't really where i needed to be and i'm not gonna live my life like that for the next thirty years and so increasingly since nineteen sixty five or so. We've been in this third era which really prizes not only love but also self expression authenticity personal growth. And so we wanna marriage. That does all of these deep psychological things. And there are upsides and downsides to those changes and i loved. You know this idea. You took maslow's hierarchy of needs and we're all sort of pretty familiar with that concept and then you tweaked it slightly right into this idea of sort of the mountain of mount moslo and we're expecting our spouse to support us you call it. What high altitude needs in their self actualization and that. It's very intense work and very high expectations of something. That's also has to be practical right like you're looking for a good practical partner. Yeah i i went all in on this metaphor. I've found it useful so people most of your readers. I think will ever your listeners. Rather we'll have some mental vision of this triangle that has you know physiological and safety needs at the bottom in love and belonging needs in the middle in esteem and self actualization needs at the top and interesting about that from my perspective. Is i just gave you a four hundred year. Summary of how merit has changed and it is basically a bottom to top shift in maslow's hierarchy so it used to be that marriage really revolved around things at the bottom and then around things at the middle like these sorts of needs and then things at the top and so that was one thing that was interesting about it. The second thing that i thought gave a lot of mileage about the the maslow's higher hierarchy analogy to thinking about halmahera has changed is. He's quite clear that it certainly good to be able to eat rather than starve or to be like temperature regulated rather than freezing. But that if you're talking about richness of the inner life of mount sense of meaning and happiness. It's really the need to the top of the hierarchy. That can that. Can you'll those sorts of outcomes so he doesn't trivialize the importance of getting enough food. But he says if you want a deeply rich meaningful life. You're really looking to fulfill the needs you know. Yes the social ones love and belonging but especially the actualising sorts of needs and from my perspective. If you if you superimpose that idea on this change over time that we've seen in in marriage with that means is that there should be a level of marital fulfilment available to people. Today that wasn't even within reach in earlier eras precisely because people weren't even trying today we're looking to the top of that hierarchy. The problem is there's a third reason that maslow's hierarchy is relevant not only because it tracks the historical trajectory and because it puts within reach a deeper level of fulfillment mesler is quite clear. That self actualization is pretty hard to do. I mean this is just doing it as an individual. It's not like people are going to listen to this. Podcast and then gets off actualized short. I mean google listeners. I have a lot of guys. But i on average maslum was pessimistic. So what we end up with is a situation and the title of the book is the all or nothing marriage. We've ended up in an in an era where because our expectations really focused towards the top of that hierarchy toward the summit of that mountain. If you will that a lot of our disappointed today with a marriage that would have been totally adequate in one thousand nine fifty but at the same time. Those of us who are able to stick a landing here those of us who are able to achieve A meaningful connection when we're looking up there. The top of that hierarchy can reach that summit can reach that level of a film that earlier eras probably didn't even have the option to reach because of the because basically they want even try. Let's take a quick break. Like a lotta people. My routines have gotten a bit helter. Skelter these last months from my eating habits sleep patterns stress levels. It's all been out of sorts. Which has resulted in surprise. Surprise me feeling like crap. So i set out to try and right the ship little and since i'm someone who does better when i'm following a program as started using a fitbit sense to help keep me on track fitbit. San's is a smartwatch that helps you tune into your body by keeping tabs on your activities stress sleep and nutrition all in one place having all this information right there in front of me has made me more accountable but also helps me see the bigger picture. It's been fascinating to see. Just how much my sleep patterns and step count can really impact the rest of my day. But what's been particularly helpful. Are there tools. That helped me do something with all this info. So i'm not just aware of my habits. But i'm actually able to change them and follow a more healthful routine when you purchase fitbit sense smartwatch at now comes with six months of fitbit premium to learn more about the fitbit sons had to fitbit dot com and now back to today's conversation. Can i try something on with you. Something actually that. I talked about with with the godman. So i know sort of come up in your book. And it's in the context of self actualization. It feels like there's another thing that's concurrently happening too. Which is this idea that we all believe. We're all sort of trying to ourselves this idea of of purpose. And why am i here. What am i supposed to do. And and then that dovetails with a period of this highly romantic and charged period of our lives on many of us meet the people that we inevitably go onto mary. Where everyone's full of this sort of optimistic hope about who. They're going to be what they're going to do. And how they're going to show up in the world and then what. I've observed in my friends who have crashed their first marriages for good or bad. Is that or what seems what seemed perceptible to me was that they fell in love with the potential and the idea of this person based on that person's own perception of their potential and it was this mutual fantasizing. That it's really hard to achieve. Even if you apply yourself. And i think in these instances the men in particular were like didn't understand why didn't just happen that makes sense. But how do you sort of balance that. This hide highly idealistic supercharge time. When we're trying to make our jobs into careers and we're falling in love etc. Like how do you. How do you sort of map for that. Potential to even support each other at the high altitude level. Well look there's a lot in their lemba start by saying that in a very real sense. The decision to marry is lunacy. You know you're basically getting like years in your twenties and early thirties or whatever and and like boy the sex is really good and it's fun to be out in public together and so so you're sort of getting a snapshot of life together. That is actually pretty different from what marriage will really be like for most of us especially if we have kids and so it's this like aligned leap of faith that we take you know we're we're deeply in love. We think this person brings out the best in us. We sit there at our. We stand there on our on our wedding day and say you're my best friend another thing that nobody said in seventeen hundred and yes. There's an immense amount of optimism and delusion and lunacy. The goes into that decision. But lest i sound pessimistic. I myself got married. I'm delighted that i did. The book is a book. Doesn't say you have to get married to have a good life but it says look lots of people find great joy through their marriage and they really do. And here's how to do it. And so i've never been able to square this that that on the one hand. The decision is certifiable that you're going to say now that i'm thirty. I know that this is the person i wanna be with. When i'm we're going to have cancer diagnoses. We're going to have money troubles. We're going to have a toddler with learning disability. Like do we really think we know enough about a we function as a pair to know that we'll be able to deal with other situations. The answer is no and the book says that we don't need to live at the summit of missiles hierarchy. We don't need to expect all of these things from our partner at all times and the book is specific about ways that we can actually ask less and and the best of us when we have. These good marriage is what we do. Is we figure out the ways in which we are compatible and how that interfaces with our current circumstances do we have a young kid at home. Are we on vacation into haiti. He's are different sorts of things and we figure out where we're good and we double down on those things. Maybe we have a hot sex life and lots of passion and look. that's terrific. Maybe we coordinate effectively and the sex. Well it isn't that great and you figure out how to manage that and then you get specific not only about what you're going to ask the relationship but what you're not going to ask of the relationship it can't be a process of just throwing more and more and more on this one relationship. There are other people in our lives. There are ways that we can be independent and figuring out how we can build a good deep connection in precisely those ways that were compatible and how we can mitigate or reduce the extent to which we get on each other's nerves or disappointing in ways that were not compatible. That's going to be the solution and that's going to require a sober approach to thinking about what we're going to be able what we're going to be able to achieve together right now. I i think that makes so much sense into to close the loop on man. I love that. He threw maslow's hierarchy off out of the train. Right because he's sort of like there is such a thing as good enough marriage and i thought this paragraph from your book with kind of emotion very emotionally resonant. If you don't mind if i read part of it you write in. America settling is a dirty word we owe it to ourselves. The culture tells us to look for excellence rather than adequacy for good as hell rather than good enough. But even those of us seeking to develop a terrific marriage recognized that expecting sixty years of unmitigated. Bliss is a tall order. Even in successful marriages there are difficult periods. Working through those periods can get the marriage back on track but rarely overnight and it can be a slog if the challenges are due to longer term circumstances like the economic stress triggered by an involuntary unemployment or the sleepless nights triggered by newborn baby adding the disappointment of failing to live up to lofty expectations. Our own and our spouses can exacerbate the stress potentially placing the marriage existential risk. And then i also i. I think it's kinda funny. How you pick on elizabeth gilbert throughout the book. I love her but i. It's funny 'cause you will you say essentially that she sort of victim potentially your psychoanalyzing her but of this not the romantic fallacy. But the people who believe in destiny who believe and one love who believed that it's some sort of elevated tantric state. Maybe you know that those people are invariably disappointed or maybe lack the temerity to slog through because it is log so i didn't mean to pick on her. I agree that. I think gotten executive good humor while it was loving. It mean yes. I have a lot of operation for. I believe. She's a very good avatar. For our cultural moment right she she is not willing to settle for mediocrity. She is in. She is very very dedicated to personal growth and self discovery and living authentically. That's what i'm talking about. Like that is what our culture is very serious about infections. An extreme example of that and so. She's she's a very good avatar for the the thing that i'm talking about. Yes i think it caused her. I mean we know from her books that that had caused her to leave her first husband whom she deemed so far as we can tell the reasonable man then at the end of eat pray love. She falls for this other guy. She eventually marries him. And then she leaves him to. But you remember. I also brought up. Cheryl strayed cheryl strahan an avatar for this approach. She she's also according to her own story Has was married to a lovely man but was feeling stagnant and stifled hers was in part due to the fact that she lost her mother young and so she went on this voyage of self discovery and personal growth. And then she. She found a marriage that helped to cultivate that sense of growth and discovery and autheniticity and my understanding is that she is still very happily married. So i think the two of them illustrate why these things can be so excellent. I think elizabeth gilbert really did have an excellent second marriage until it sort of fell apart and also why it's fragile. Why these things are at higher risk for falling apart because this gilbert is not going to settle for a marriage where there's some love here but we're not really growing. She's going to demand more. And that again. I think picture of good paragon of this of this type of approach to that. I've been talking about. Yeah and you know at the end. Do sort of poke at this idea that we as that we might be. I don't know if we're in the midst of another evolution in marriage but that it obviously it's a generational shift but that people are sort of giving up on monogamous relationships or they don't really think that a monogamous relationship is the ideal right so fifty one percent of people under thirty. And he's i don't know if these have changed since the book came out a few years ago don't think monogamy is a good idea. Where seventy percent of sixty five. Plus i can't imagine like how how we'll be able to sustain ourselves and not in non monogamy but like i might be small minded like it is so incomprehensible to me and terrifying to me. What is the idea of of you. Personally being a non monogamous relationship or the idea that society might be open minded to it Now that i could emotionally handle that for. Yeah no i wouldn't. I would not be down if my husband's listening. Not i'm not i'm not down. I don't care what other people do. I'm just saying it's. It's when i project to how i feel personally. I can't those numbers are staggering. So a couple of a couple of comments on that. I i just just to make sure that the data the finding is sort of clear to your listeners. The this study. And i found it fascinating where they ask people on a a kinsey type scale for those familiar with that about sexual orientation a scale from zero to six where they're reported on their ideal relationship not like what's what's actually feasible given human frailties isn't what is your ideal relationship and a score of zero says completely monogamous and a score of six says completely non monogamous. And so what. I've reported in the book is the percentage of people who listed something other than other than zero right that is the percentage of them said some amount of non monogamy is ideal. And yeah among millennials. And i don't think there are the samples yet for people younger. It's not fifty fifty in terms of people who say that the ideal relationship is absolutely monogamous versus some amount of of non monogamous. So i believe that your instinct about yourself is really worth taking seriously. There is some addition. I mean i don't think non monogamy is for for everybody. I think i'm sort of one of the few book. Is i think one of the few places where i think people. Somebody's talking very openly about the merits of non monogamy without being something his ellett for non monogamy with them. Not i am not at all as ellen from non monogamy is probably not the right call for more than half of people. What i think is important about the chapter of the book right. I talk about this. Is we have this sort of weird thing. In american marriage right now where the assumption is what monogamy of course and then. I'm going to start like with what i'm asking the relationship and i really think that's sensible or fair right. So if we decide that that lifelong monogamy from thirty to eighty is romantic and sexual monogamy is going to be absolutely required. Unerringly i gotta a reasonable thing for people to be asking. It is not reasonable for them to treat it as if it is not a big ask and so if that is something. That's a big priority to you in here release. I'm talking to you. But i'm also talking to your listeners. That that also have your inclination. Which again. I think is probably more than half. Then it's like okay. Well what is that going to take. I think that probably has implications for how much we take care of our bodies right like if we're going to say you partner can never be with anybody else but i'm going to completely let myself go and never bothered to try to look good. That doesn't seem all that fair. It probably has implications for okay. We'll if we're gonna make this massive ask of the relationship. And like i said i think probably the majority of the people are better off doing it. Then okay i get that. I'm making this massive. Ask and i'm going to be okay with my marriage if it can't do this other thing that i might like but isn't as important as that one so it's really the the thing that i find disconcerting is the idea that there's this assumption that the this this conversation should never happen. Should we be monogamous or not. It's like you try to you. Try to broach that with your partner. And therefore of course. It's going to happen but we don't recognize that when we are making demands of our partner our relationship that that those have costs that those have consequences and you can't ask for everything and the context when let's think about this the context in which i talk about this is the broader context of if there are ways in which our relationship is coming up short and really what i mean is in the ways that your relationship and my relationship and everybody else's relationship is coming up short. Are there things that we can do to mitigate the amount of frustration or disappointment and i talk about the possibility of getting a tennis partner. And i talk about the possibility of reading your philosophy books but one that i also talk about. Is the idea that there might be ways to be less demanding of this one relationship in the sexual domain and the reason why i think that one is important is because i think there are strong relationships otherwise strong relationships that die on these particular rocks now some of those relationships that die on these rocks should die on these rocks because it is that important like somebody like you should be willing to die on these rocks because it is crucial but some of those relationships die on these rocks because of a narrow mindedness that tells people. You can't have an alternative way of doing this and here. I'm not talking about infidelity. I'm not talking about cheating. I'm talking about consensual non monogamy grownups. Having a conversation about how they're going to navigate the romantic and sexual life overtime right and you talk about masturbation and this idea that it doesn't always have to be partnered and you can have varying sex drive's that that's that there are solutions. I also think that the monogamy conversation is is interesting and certainly worth having because clearly. I don't know what the rates. I don't know that we would ever know. Have the data. Because there's so much shame attached to it potentially correctly or dot but a lot of people have been anonymous relationships for the duration of their monogamous relationships. Right so it's not like this isn't happening or hasn't been happening forever since since don of marriage and now we're just sort of pushing it out in the open to have a conversation about it in a way that might preserve the family structure the other. Yeah one thing about that. I guess i would ask your listeners. Whether they themselves are anybody they know. Have some significant level of difference between them and their significant other when it comes to say sex drive so how frequently you'd like to have it or what activities you like right like i guess we could call it tank or whatever else what sorts of sexual activities that you like. It would be absolutely miraculous if the person who happens to have like the is that you find beautiful and the intellect that you find inspiring and the sense of humor. That is exactly compatible with yours. Wants precisely the amount of the frequency of sexual contact that you want. And exactly in the manner that you want to. And and so obviously. Nobody's entitled to all of that like we shouldn't expect that we're going to get all of that. So the question is. Where are we highly compatible. And let's really double down on those things in the ways that we are not and for many of us it's going to have some type of you know sexual incompatibility not necessarily a profound one. Although for some people will be profound. So how are we going to navigate. That is that the person who wants to have it less sort of just determined when it happens in. One person is chronically under satisfied. Well that's one solution. I'm not saying that's a bad one. Is it that the person who wants it more gets to have it whenever she wants and the other person has to accommodate that. Well look i you know whatever works for people. I'm not going to judge them as long as it's consenting adults doing what they're consenting to is it that you do all sorts of activities in the bedroom that you find unappealing or even disgusting because that's what your partner wants i or do you just have to go the rest of your life. Never having had limping never having sorts of activities that that you really want all of those are find solutions but there are other solutions that that happened to involve something beyond the diane and again these are conversations that people don't have and i think in some cases that's to the detriment of the relationship right and i think in our heads you talk about this too. I loved this line. Thought it was hilarious. It's steph stephanie. Coots who who you right. Seventy coons historian reminds us that leave it to beaver was not a documentary right at that. And you talk about this period with an susan kella kellogg steven mintz refer to it as the great exception. Which was this you know. Nineteen fifty s deal. Homemaker mom bread maker dad however many children but that in our minds we that's what we reference race like. We continually go back to that point. Which really only lasted for a what a decade and cite it as an appropriate marriage or the perfect marriage or the ideal marriage and then we don't really fact check it with the fact that that has never that that only existed for very small moment of time and then we can argue about whether it was even ideal right. Yeah i mean. I found that that eye-opening as well my background here is a basic research psychologist. So i run into my living room shaped lab. And i videotape them and follow them over time but the historical sociological economics perspectives. On these things were new. And i to sort of had this understanding that traditional marriage was that thing in the fifties and way we talk about that is as if well it was like that in the fifties and just in perpetuity going backwards. It was like that but the fifties were freaking weird in terms of the nature of family life. First of all. It was the only time in america. There was like a few decades. Maybe forty five to seventy five. Where offense like regular people could actually make ends meet on the back of one salary. That's when the suburbs exploded. It just happens to be when television came in and because it happens to be when television came in and we've been reruns of father knows best and lebron beaver encoded that way of thinking about marriage as if as if it came down with moses from mount sinai and it didn't it was one historical i blank in a massive sequence of historical i've links and this is why i though i want the book to be helpful to people and like you said the last third to half of the book is pretty practical in terms of how to have a better relationship but i wanted everybody to know some of this background primarily because once you stand how these things have changed it is i believe in powering that that we realized that there is a broad buffet of options available to us and that there are are many reasonable ways for reasonable adults to decide to live a good marriage together a good family life together and and the fifties that was one and look if people want to have a male breadwinner female homemaker marriage today. Then god bless but how awesome is it that we live in an era where we get all of this choice and i would just urge people to try to do as much introspection and conversation as they can to figure out. How is it that we can connect in the best way. Ideally in a way that keeps us all happy until death really does do us part exactly and then to sort of figure out why other people alternate way of approaching life why it's so triggering writer so brings up so much us so that we can let that go right. Because as mentioned i'm i've i'm not in. I don't want to be in a throttle. i think. I've made that clear. However i don't care i could give two shits if my neighbor wants to be in the throat right but we have to get to this place of allowing other people to live their lives and figure out what works for them and to let go of this idea that we're all the same that our needs are the same or that we're in the same life stage or that. Are you know. Opportunities are the same. It's just a mess. The other thing that i thought was great. And i know you you sort of. Don't get your all leave. i'm gonna not you say you will make no effort to adjudicate the debate here but we also go back to one of those myths. Which is this idea that men hunt and women gather and homemake right. This biological imperative. You talk about it and i loved. I thought it was so powerful. That this idea. That man own assertiveness and women own nurturance. And we've we've let that govern us away. And i think it's sandra bam right. Who can summon she you write the psychologist. Sandra bem conceptualize is assertiveness in terms of psychological masculinity which is masculine and male or not the same obviously and nurturance in terms of psychological femininity. We often think of masculinity and femininity is occupying opposite ends of a single dimension but they are better conceptualized as two separate dimensions. She talks about psychological androgen knee. Right the people who are most emotionally while tuned for relationships managed to have. I don't know if it's fifty. Fifty or some sort of balance whether male or female aballah of psychological sort of nassar masculinity and psychological nurturance are feminine. Which i think is so interesting and clarifying and i think if there's one method can distance ourselves from its that there's this biological urge that we each have to occupy two different spears in life. Yes i i mean. One of the things that i do in the in the front end of the book is talk about how people really dreamed of this breadwinner. Homemaker lump as marriage. I mean it was like a like a century and a half people thought. Wouldn't it be amazing if this is possible. And what they they didn't get because they essentially is the differences between men and women. Is that look. Maybe there is a difference. Maybe maybe there are sex differences such that women are on average a little more nurturing than men and men are on average a little more assertive than women. And maybe there's some biological basis for that. I don't even wanna get into the debate. The debate even among social scientists tends to be contentious but to pretend that women have only a desire for nurturance and not certain. This and that meant only have a desire for assertiveness and not nurturance is absurd and so what we ended up doing with the fifties marriage the the love based breadwinner homemaker approach. Is we cleaved the human psyche in half we basically said men. You get to be assertive. But we don't wanna see you cry women you get to be nurturance but we don't wanna see you like achieve much right to be sort of professionally ambitious for example that that stifled doesn't pretty profound way and that is one of the things that i think is amazing about the era that we live in. I initially thought i was going to write a book. That was kind of pessimistic about marriage. It was going to be a story about how we're asking more. And more and more of these things while simultaneously were not really investing more time in the marriage and and therefore we're kind of destroying our own marriages and marriage is an institution and the story ended up being so much more interesting. Because because everything that i thought is true we are in terms of the higher level. Maslow's stuff the psychological stuff we are asking way more than in the past and it does mean that you can't really do it on the cheap which means a lot of emotional investment a lot of coordination a lot of communication much more so than when you're figuring out how to tend to flock and plant the corn and and so i my initial instinct was right that we're doing something pretty dangerous and we're making the average marriage worse but we're also freeing people up to be a fuller more authentic version of themselves for those of us who can make it work and it's not like just two percent right it's a. It's i think the minority but it's a healthy minority thus far. Who figured out how to connect in this top of maslow's hierarchy way that doesn't put deep rules on the nature of what women are and what women can do the nature of what men are and what men can do because we have that freedom. We have a lot more ways to fail but the successes are all sweeter. Yeah now it's absolutely true and you know there's certainly a lot of studies to support when we think about the context because i think so many people go straight to like but what about the kids and the family unit and actually wanted to say that the front half of the question that you asked was like. I don't give two shifts like i'm tolerant so here i'd like to myself leave left but i would like to try to channel. What i think is a quite reasonable concern from. That is more prevalent on the right side of the political continuum than on the left. Which is that that. it's not really about just. Each individuals does his or her own thing and everybody ends up happy that there are social and societal consequences and that family is a pretty important social institution for the nature of society in general and i happen to think that conservatives make a very good point here they. I don't necessarily agree entirely with their analysis. But i think this is a very valid concern and it certainly a valid concern about people who might consider consensual non monogamy right like. There's a responsibility that we have to our children. I think if you make a decision to have children you have a moral responsibility to provide an environment. Where i'm they can grow up well and ideally flourish for me. The crucial distinction there isn't really about monogamy versus non monogamy it's about stability versus instability and the available evidence provided no reason for skepticism. That that if you know if you were in a long-term throttle that your kids would end up worse off. In fact can you imagine having three loving adults and a household like there may well be up sites that it's really the you know. There's a new. There's a new woman over every night. And i don't know in kids just have no sense of certainty about start attaching to someone and then she's gone so so with regard to not caring what what other people do. I think it's fair enough for us to have opinions about what's good for society as well and then to try to do trade offs among which good for the individual and what's good for the society and simultaneously to attend to both of levels of analysis. Conservatives are good at reminding us that our decisions that a bunch of individuals might make an isolation that are good for them that might yield a bad society. And we're we're wise to remember that no and to be absolutely just to can completely agree with that. I would say. Actually you know thinking about it like i am in a three bowl because our vicky. Our kids nanny. She's living with us during kovin and she is absolutely third parent if not like the best parents the one. He's parenting all of us. And so you know we pay her to love our children but they feel she loves. She loves her kids. I don't think it's possible to to to demand that sort of love that she shows them. But yeah i mean we're sort of living proof if you have two working parents mean can't do it by ourselves. This is the way that humans were always raised until very recently. They were raised by communities. They were raised by broad extended families. Let's take a quick break as some of you may know. We've had a few spinoff podcast series. One is the beauty closet. Which is co hosted by groups. Beauty editors gene godfrey june the legend and megan o'neill there have been on hiatus for a bit but due to popular demand. They're back for a third season. Which launched on september thirtieth in addition to being incredibly knowledgeable about clean beauty gene and megan have many wide ranging passions. Some of which they share like their love of popcorn and humidity their particular brand of enthusiasm as the kind. You actually wanna catch. And they're hilarious together. Truly one of the best duos around on the beauty closet. Podcasts megan jean dive deeper into the topics they cover on the site and in our newsletter via their columns s gene and megan tries it but they're also able to explore new conversations on the podcast their guests our industry pros journalists dermatologists surgeons clean beauty entrepreneurs stylist and multi hyphen at celebrities. They asked big and small questions. Tactical practical and philosophical questions. They talk about redefining beauty standards. What it means to feel well at every age and of course the secret to the world's glorious skin at the end of every episode megan jean do an ama round where they answer audience questions which i love listening to. Everyone deserves to have those two on speed. Dial you can listen to the beauty closet now wherever you listen to your podcast and you can learn more at goop dot com slash beauty closet podcast. That's goop dot com slash beauty closet podcast and now back to today's conversation so the other to sort of shift into some of the things that can help us regardless what sort of marriage we might find ourselves in a loved. I i just wanted to sidetrack to the stop because i love it and it also makes the point one of the points that you make. Which is we're really were. Our version of history particularly when we're in conflict is sometimes delusional. And so one of your one chunk of advice is to always assumed the best in terms of your partner's intentions instead of just immediately going off the rails which i think is very valid but i love this quote which is and again. It's sort of points to our own delusion about our own lives most of us overestimate how much we work. And the over estimates are particularly large among people who claim to work the most americans who claim to work thirty five to fifty hours per week. Tend to overestimate by about five hours per week on average whereas those who claim to work seventy five hours or more per week. Overestimate by about twenty five hours per week. I thought that was stunning. And and to larry s. But i i do think it speaks to that the the fact that when we're in relationship and this is certainly something that my husband and i struggle with. I'm guessing it's universal. Is you have your own view of yourself and your world. And it's often far afield from a more objective reality. Sukey talked about like getting closer to the same page if you ask people like if i were to ask you and your husband. What percentage of the do you do. What percentage of the parenting that you do. If you're like most couples it would add up to more than hundred percent and berkshire. Yeah and it's not. That evil is that we always under our partner does. It's like saying his vivid to us that we just took out the garbage that we just did the dishes that we just change the diaper. And it's you know the stuff that our partners doing that we're not seeing or that we don't sort of recognize that that he or she views it as service or whatever or as a contribution of family life so i would you know. I wish i could make a call for humility that in. We're convinced when we're having a fight that it was our memory of what our partner said. That is correct. And there's no way that it's what he said. That is correct and you know. Look the research it you were to take. My psych class on an and cover memory memory is enormously bias. We think of it like something you file away and then when you try to remember something you just call back that filed at all what it is. It's heavily distorted and are subjective experiences. The these things all tend to be pretty self serving and biased and if we remember that a lot of the fights that we have start to go because what we say instead of. That is not what happened. We say whoa like i. I understand that that if if that was how you experienced it or how you remembering. I see what you were frustrated with what i did. I thought it happened. This way and i was frustrated. Too is important to me that you understand. Why with my understanding. I was frustrated but it is not important to me that you declare that my narrative of what happened is objectively true and those are very constructive discussions that don't make don't make people feel defensive and yet teaches your partner the circumstances under which you get upset and hopefully you guys can listen and learn from each other in those conversations keeping the temperature down and actually having an insightful mutually understanding type of conversation and it's a challenge it takes practice and so the other things that are helpful sort of hacks. I think you call them. Love hack is using gratitude as a tool which is good for all of us all the time and every avenue aspect of our lives and then i loved this man. I know that at the time the book was published. I think the evidence was preliminary this idea of. I'm terrible at this so applying enthusiastic so being enthusiastic and celebratory in response to your partner. So can you talk a little bit about how that works. So broadly speaking the you've referenced. The last third or half of the book where where it gets a little bit more concrete about how to have a better relationship. That stuff is built on all of the sort of historical stuff. I was building before if it is the case that we're asking we're looking at the top of maslow's hierarchy. We're asking a lot more in terms of these sorts of psychological and emotional sorts of connections and we find ourselves a little disappointed in some aspects of our marriage which is true for pretty much everybody then we basically have three sets of options. One set of option is to go all in. And that's what people expect to hear from someone like me. So how should you have your date nights. And how can you communicate better. And i dedicate a chapter that and then there's a chapter that's dedicated to how to ask less. Like what are the ways that we can be specific and concrete about asking less of our relationship. You're talking about this third option so so if you think in those first two options is a little bit of like supply and demand like what are you demanding of your marriage and if you're going to demand a lot will then you better be investing a lot in the marriage date nights communication and so forth but there's this third possibility other than like demanding last or supplying more argued more supply which is can we use whatever available bandwidth. We have right now more efficiently and these approaches that i do call them love hacks and they have to to finding properties one is that you can do them by yourself. You don't even need to coordinate with your partner. And the other is that they take on the order of minutes right. These aren't really intensive things that you do in their inspired a little bit by marcel. Proust's who says that mystery is not about traveling to new places but about looking with new is what are the the things we can do to sort of look with new is at at our partner and our relationship. So you've talked a little bit about how we can interpret our partners behavior. There's a lot of flexibility we have in terms of. I was our partner late. Is it because he's a jerk because he did the best that he could just couldn't make it work you're talking here about about what in the research literature is called capitalization so you come to your partner and express that you had this this sort of success win at work and and she says to you. Hey that's cool but can we talk a little bit about it. After after this thing is over or wait hold on. I just want to finish the sentence or whatever or do you say oh man. That one's cool come over to the kitchen. Let's grab a glass of wine and talk about it and turns out perhaps not surprisingly it turns out that that people who are doing this this more enthusiastic sort of listening. It doesn't even have to involve the glass of wine. That partner feels way way better. So i i would ask your listeners. How many of you are good at that. Like how many of us are good at detecting. You look like my partner is actually kind of proud of this and then making big really savoring. The moment in a way that very of us do in in any sort of regular way. Yeah no absolutely i. I'm terrible at that terrible about it. Yeah i just. I don't make big deals out of the big deal and little. We should be making especially for partner. I'm especially bad about it for myself. Like if i have an achievement i just forget and go back to email but i'm trying to get better and a half gotten better about if i see that she's had a big deal or somebody that i love has stopping what i'm doing signifying. That was a thing. And i would much rather over estimate. I'd much rather pour the wine when it wasn't a pour the wine moment and failed to pour the wine when it was poor. The one moment. Yeah no absolutely and it certainly makes life more fun and then you talk about you talk about sort of affectionate touching simple holding hands putting your arm around someone. Just it's funny. You know the whatever the five languages of love our haven't read that book but like understanding for my husband touch is very important and it never occurred to me until i was like. Oh like you touch me because you want me to like put my hand on your arm and like it calms him but is that something that sort of universally. It seems like it's probably universally good. No i don't think it is and this is again. I i sort of tried to claim that the last third to a half of my book is self help. And i really think it is but it's not self help that exists at that level so it doesn't say these are the grads and reach out to touch him this many times a day or something like that and the reason why is because we're all different and so i think there are general trend so if you want if you want to say like on average do people feel closer. When when their partner reaches out and touches them. What i think is so fun about that. Study that i review there's series of studies but one of the studies that i think is so fun is the positive effect of having your partner. Reach out and touch you. Is there even if you know that your partner reached out and touched you because the experimental told him to like so. That's one of the things that i find fascinating but really it in the social sciences. We're talking on average. Were saying relative to the people in this condition. They felt more comfortable. They felt a closer to their partner if they had been touched. But i also talk in the book. About how i have some like wind emotionally of wooden tendencies and for most people if they hurt themselves or feel ashamed about something that happened. What you wanna do like sued them and give them a hug and for me. It's like go away. Give me a few minutes to process. Like if i stubbed my toe. I don't want anybody there until it stops hurting. And so the ruling that like well the way to take care of people is when they're feeling physical emotional pain go to them and nurture them and rub their back. Wouldn't apply to me. I'm still happy to say that. An average it's good advice but the book is really serious about the importance of communicating with your partner and figuring out a cookie cutter. Solutions aren't going to work for us. They might have some good general advice. But we're gonna learn about each other over time and we're going to make a real effort to do that and consequently we're going to be able to have a much deeper connection than if i were just using cookie-cutter sorts of solutions like when injured then wrote back at the end you talk about. I don't think it had been studied yet. And i'm wondering if it has been studied. Probably not because. I know your book came out pretty recently. But that idea of writing for ten minutes once a month about your goals and aspirations and spending five minutes on your own and then spending five thinking about facilitating. Your spouse's goals. And those are goals that related to excel right. Not just sort of like you know. Walk every day but has not been studied. Or can you talk about why you think it would be so powerful. Yes so i was. You know it's funny. I of forgot to do that. Study i gotta do that. So daddy remind drawer. Or i want people to be more sensitive to what they are of their partner because i think what has actually happened is the and again only really in our cultural moment is we just through more and more and more on this one relationship the spouse and that's not necessarily bad but there is something to be said for being aware of all the things that we're asking and then trying to figure out like it is this working. Could we make ourselves happier by asking less in some ways and frankly maybe asking more and other ways and so. I encourage people in the book to give some thought to. What are things that they were important things that they want from their life that include you know being left giving love all sorts of other stuff and which of those things are really essential to meet through the marriage like for example like running a household where you know people feel like visiting us right something that you really can't do through your best friend because your best friend doesn't live with you but then what are the goals that you could meet. Maybe through some other significant relationship right you know of two sibling. And then what are the goals that you really could beat on your own and then being strategic about how just about the amount of demand that we're placing on this one relationship and making sure that the demands that we're placing on this relationship are realistic in light of the amount of emotional connection that we feel the time bandwidth. We have for each other these days. I would urge almost everybody. Who's got a newborn or young children at home. Step back a little bit. Descend a little bit from the summit for a while because it's going to be hard to have sex as frequently as you did. Before to have the deep conversations you used to have to go to the matinee and then discuss philosophy over dinner. These are things that are going to be hard to do for a while. And so you'll be disappointed if you don't calibrate your expectations. So the task of what types of goals were bringing and how we might fulfill them helps us. I think calibrate our expectations of the marriage to what the merit can realistically provide. And then in the context. I know it's just. It's interesting to think about that. Particularly in the context of kovin and some people are sort of able to get out and mingle more and clearly we're seeing our friends and whatnot on zoom which is certainly not the same. But i would imagine it's putting its pop music. It's a good time to reevaluate what you're putting on your partner just because you know right now. My husband's hotter on average. I think it is. You know it's for some of us. It's a total windfall for a lot of us right like who. Who have you told some people on january. First that you were going to have an extra twenty five hours a week together with your spouse you you might have been thrilled and so so. Some of us are really able to use that effectively. I think it's going better for people who don't have either very young kids or school age kids at home but there there. Yeah but but it's on average. This is a big stressor for people. Even people who don't get the disease and on average stress tends to be corrosive for relationships again. Some people do really well was sometimes stress brings us closer together. We're just talking on average so yes. Covert is a time. Where i think. On average people will be served well by stepping off the expectations for a little bit for easing up on those expectations. A little bit or at least calibrating them. Better to what the new realities. Surely this is a different reality than the one we thought we were launching into when we made the decision to marry this person. How is it that we can play to our strengths. Under these circumstances and mitigate our weaknesses given the new reality well thank you for your time and good luck. Good luck with your with your marriage. Thank you so much. Good luck with yours. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening to my conversation with eli call for more from eli. Pick up a copy of his incredible book the all or nothing marriage. That's it for today's episode. If you have a chance please. Rate and review hit subscribe to keep up with new episodes and pass it along to a friend. Thanks again for joining a hope. You'll come back for more. And in the meantime you can check out. 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