20 Episode results for "Steve Levin"

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Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

5:01:00 hr | 1 year ago

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

"So we're I. do it all over again. I would not done the New York executive order followed by everyone. I treated everybody. You know the same either way in all the you know hyperbolic headlines We know Rhode Island Governor. Police stay lockdown. Closed our borders right like we were welcoming to anyone who wanted to come here. You just had to provide us with information. So we can keep you safe and the people of Rhode Island say. Did you think about closing your borders? No, now I didn't. Is it legal? It's good question. It would depend. I'd say probably not. That would be a real interference with interstate commerce and. You're being asked to come up with a strategy for restoring the economy, but without what I would think is the testing capability that experts say are necessary without good information about even what behaviors will won't spread the disease at this point, so do you feel? Bad and worse one way of describing it impossible because there's another way to describe it. Yeah so you're absolutely right by the way the key things are you have to rely on the data that you can get your hands on so in my discussions? The loudest voice in the room is my public health advisor. All that matters is that you try your best on a daily basis with the facts before you to make the best decision you can, and here's the hard part for politicians. Be Willing to change so as the facts change as our information about the virus changes. People like me have to be willing to say. I'm changing. I was wrong, so I'm guessing you're lockdown. Exit Strategy has different phases of reopening most plans. What do you see as the easiest and hardest parts of society to reopen, so it will be a phase plan, and we all as a country have to get ready for social distancing for the next year. Now what that looks like in the beginning we'll be crowds of fewer than five or ten people. Months from out of obviously bigger crowds, it could be fifty or one hundred, but. The days of handwashing mask wearing and social distancing are here to stay until we have a vaccine I. Don't think people really. Get that so I say it often. The heartcall for. Me Is School. That's a really tough call for me right now. What to do is about school i. mean thank God. Kids are not particularly susceptible. That's a huge. Blessing of this weird virus right huge. That's huge. But a lot of them live with grandma GRANDPA aunts and uncles, custodians and schools are often over fifty or sixty. Lots of teachers are over fifty or sixty. None of us has ever gone through this before. You know it's. It's hard to call somebody and say. How would you handle it? Because none of us has gone through it when I first saw the number of patients being admitted to the hospital in Wuhan, China, I knew that this was going to be a bad outbreak, and that's someone who has been through a few pandemics, but I think the moment that I. I really grappled with the transmissibility was watching that cruise ship in Japan and seeing how that disease spread so quickly to involve so many passengers on that boat. That's Dr Julie Gerber Dang. I was the director of the US Centers for Disease Control. Prevention are CDC from two thousand and two to two thousand and nine. Gurgling is an infectious disease expert. These days. She's the chief patient officer for the pharmaceutical firm Merck. And what did she think when she first saw how transmissible Kobe nineteen was. That was not SARS that I knew. In two thousand and three I was SARS that was much more transmissible at a community level. Gurgling has been through not only SARS, but the H One n one outbreak in two thousand nine murders in two thousand twelve, and her career began back in the midst of HIV AIDS. Pandemic management from the public health side she says comes in three phases number. One phase one is really early detection, and in the case of this new corona virus. We had fairly early translation of the fact that there was something new in dangerous, going on in China and in Wuhan I would say they use some of the most Jakonen methods possible to contain the outbreak things that would probably be impossible in a number of other more Westernized. Westernized countries, but nevertheless they made a heroic effort to really slow spread and try to minimize transmission beyond the original Epi Center, but that plainly didn't happen once the contagion spreads to other parts of the world. You're in phase two. Which is the mitigation phase? You can't stop it, but perhaps you can slow it down, so that's what has led to all the social distancing efforts, but sometimes we forget to parked to mitigation. One part is really. Really taking the social distancing measures, and all that implies seriously, but the other is making sure that we do it sustaining essential services, so how we think about balancing the need to protect people and slow down the impact on our health system, and at the same time maintain our social services. That's a tough balance to get right that balances what we're all struggling with these days, and what's next the final phases of course recovery, and unfortunately we're. We're not quite there yet. In most communities around the world, so we are not really developing I think the firm policies for how we will try to come out of this in part, because we don't really know what's going to happen next. Is this going to resolve as our social distancing measures really take hold, or are we going to see a second wave? That could be as bad or worse so back in the SARS one epidemic. All the models suggested there would be a second way for SARS that Chris Murray. I'm the director of the Institute for Health Metrics and evaluation I H me is a research group at the University of Washington who's cove, nineteen forecasting driven much of the public policy response to date including White, house policy, and of course, the vast majority of the world was susceptible. There wasn't a second way. We don't really know why and it would be great if that occurs now, but hope is not a strategy and given what we've seen about. How much more? Widely spread cove. It is than SARS one. We should expect that the risk of a second wave is great. The vast majority of the US will be susceptible. And that means that we need to be better prepared in terms of testing contact tracing isolation strategies, these are measures. Most people agree are key to any sensible lockdown exit, strategy, testing, contact, tracing and isolation strategies, but Much easier said than done for one thing. Even though the death rate has slowed, the is still very transmissible and somewhat mysterious. It is after all a novel Corona Virus. It's attacking the body in ways that the most expert doctors and scientists are still trying to figure out. When phrase you often hear when you speak with these people, it's the fog of war. They say for Julie Gurgling one close equivalent was the AIDS outbreak. In some sense might careers book ended by two pandemics when I was a very junior clinician and HIV west, first emerging in San Francisco I had a whole roster full of very very sick patients, mostly young men with what we now recognize as AIDS, but at the time. We did not have any idea what this disease was. We just had very very sick and dying people, and they had bizarre complicating infections and cancers, and it was a nightmare and all we could really do for our patients so as to just care about them. Try to help them be comfortable. Comfortable and cope with their illness. Groupings own research was focused on trying to understand how HIV could be acquired through blood exposure. Some AIDS patients were not receiving treatment because many doctors were fearful of contracting HIV back. Then we had no idea how big the risk was. So I can only imagine what it's like to be. On the frontline of this corona virus, and recognize the hazard that helps workers are experiencing, but also their frustration with by not having the protective equipment. They need to feel confident in their safety. Gurgling sees another parallel between Covid nineteen and AIDS. Both of these situations started in an environment of complacency when HIV emerged, it took us a long time to even recognize that it was an infectious disease, because we had kind of gulled into this false sense of security that we had antibiotics and vaccines, and we were really enjoying kind of the end of the Infectious Disease Threat Era. And sobered us up very quickly that no, no, no, we've had a number of scary things happened in the last several years with infections, emerging from contact with animals, including bats sits in the case of SARS in two thousand and three and so forth. So when Corona virus emerged in China last year. I think a lot of people sort of thought well, it's over there. It's not us. We've seen this before. Yes, we had a SARS outbreak in two thousand three in it was frightening for a while for eight months, or so and eight thousand people were infected and. Eight hundred of them died. Those aren't US numbers those are global numbers again. Roughly eight thousand people worldwide contracted SARS an eight hundred died. As of this recording, roughly three million people are thought to have contracted covid nineteen with more than two hundred thousand dead. Different countries have responded differently. Sweden for instance has not shut things down. Even schools in restaurants remain open. Their goal is to achieve what's called herd immunity by letting the virus work its way through the population. And on the other end of things, Singapore used what you might think of as Orwellian surveillance to identify and isolate people who'd been exposed to the virus, does it to Holler extremes of the equation and I. Don't think the juries in yet in terms of which ultimately proved to be the best overall approach. Each government kind of taken a look at its local situation in Korea for example given that the majority of the early cases were all linked to a particular religious group, the country go in, and really concentrate on finding the people who were members of that congregation and getting them evaluated tested isolated if they were positive or quarantined if they were exposed, if you. You want a success story right now. Chris Murray again from H.. M. E. I think it's New Zealand, which had communities transmission had a broad tastes shutdown, and as got transmission to near zero. At this point in an ideal world you would want to now where everyone is at all times Rhode Island Governor Gina Raimondo again, however in the United States of America. We don't live and frankly i. don't want to live in that kind of state, so we have to protect privacy and civil liberties. And also in that context put in place, the most rigorous contact tracing system, we can find contact tracing meaning you inform people who interacted with someone who's tested positive so that they too can self quarantine. I asked her Mondo. What's the best ground or compromise? She seen four contact tracing. Well, it can tell you what we're thinking about. You know a lot of consumer choice a lot of opting in. Not Forcing people. For some of the more. Invasive options. Making it easy bride incentives, and just making the case to people that. If they do provide their information. It will be secure. It's never going to get into the hands of a business. It will be destroyed appropriately, but Rhode Island isn't there yet. They are not ready to lift the lockdown. Some states are Oklahoma Georgia and South Carolina began the process last week, and that should provide some useful epidemiological data meanwhile in states where political leaders aren't ready to reopen. There have been protests in now. People are. Angry tired anxious sick of being cooped up. And by the way they should be. How could you not be after being locked in your house for a month? But the test of leadership. For people like me is whether we can lead people through that anxiety. To a place of realizing that it's in their best interest to. To follow the rules, so, how do you do that? If I let's say, run a small restaurant and I've had zero dollars for the past five six seven weeks and I know that there's a federal plan that's not working very well. It's already tapped out. It was hard to get. Let's say I didn't get any of that. And I get you on the phone. I governor Raimondo. I understand I want to do my part, but you're killing me here. You're killing me. What do you say to me there? I know when I'm sorry. There's no other option if I let you open right now. Nobody would show up anyway because they're afraid. And it would just make the problem worse because if you open now. Everybody gets sick. We start flying back up the curve. Will be in this mess longer. So although it. Stinks. Hanging there with me for a couple more weeks. 'cause I WANNA. Get you back in business as fast as I possibly can. But unfortunately until there's a cure for this disease. We gotTa Take Swan. Cure meaning, therapeutic treatment, which has remained elusive and or vaccine. Scientists around the world have more than seventy different vaccine candidates in progress with the handful already in clinical trials. Julie Gerbert again. This should be a virus for which we can create a vaccine. Merck has an animal health business, and because corona viruses are common across many many animal species. We actually do have some vaccines that have to do with other corona viruses and other animal species, so I feel very confident that we will end up with a vaccine. The question is how fast typically a new vaccine can take about ten years with vaccines. You have to be concerned about two things. One is the length of protection if any and second the safety, because if you're. You're going to deliver a product to someone who's really healthy. You want to be absolutely sure that it is as safe as possible. So the testing for vaccines has to occur over a much longer arc of time long enough to tell whether or not protective immunity occurs and lasts long enough to be practical from a public health, perspective and studies have to be long enough so that the full spectrum of safety concerns can be observed, addressed in the process of the clinical development, but with a public health threat of this scope, the norms may be adjusted to accelerate things. The trump administration said we can expect a vaccine in sixteen or eighteen months. How realistic is that? I'm optimistic. We'll have a coronavirus vaccine, but I'm respectful of time line, and then the scale. It's not going to be helpful to have a vaccine to protect some people in one country or a few countries. We're going to need capability of producing the vaccine so that we have equitable access among all the people who need it, and that is an order of magnitude that we have never achieved in the history of the world. No one knows how the search for a in nineteen vaccine or treatment will play out. History does provide a lesson or two. After four decades there is still no HIV vaccine, but there are therapeutics that have rendered AIDS no longer a fatal disease. Polio meanwhile has vaccine which is wonderful because scientists weren't able to come up with viable treatment. How does this inform our thinking on cove nineteen? In the absence of a vaccine for now or a therapeutic solution so far, the main weapon is reducing the spread of the virus, and that is hard to do without more testing, yeah. Testing is the key. Governor Raimondo again. In a magical world. Imagine if I had enough test where? Every day everyone before they walked into work could be tested and have a result within five or ten minutes. I mean in that world. We could reopen tomorrow now. Obviously, that is not the world in which we live, but my point is. Testing is really a key piece of the puzzle. We're doing more than two thousand tests a day so more than two thousand per million puts us. On the high end of testing. I think however. I know we need to be doing multiples of that per day. Before we can start reopening the economy. So. Why isn't there more testing? Coming up after the break, we'll tell you why and also what to do about it and how to make sure everyone wants to get tested. Also our producing partners stitcher has a new podcast called pandemic economics, test, big land and Eduardo. Porter Interview University of Chicago. Economists about well about pandemic economics. You can find it where you get freakonomics radio. We will be right back. I recently called up Steve Levin, my Freakonomics, friend and CO author. He's an economist at the University of Chicago, which like all schools has moved to remote teaching? So Levitt House. You're sheltering in place going generally. Not Too, bad I mean I'm lucky. I didn't lose my job and I'm healthy. I don't really like people that much in the I. Don't mind being eyesight itself I know other people are really suffering, but I've been super lucky, so let me ask you this. How useful would you say that? Economists have been so far during this pandemic? I think it. Columnists didn't really have a very big role in the beginning the middle in the sense that it was really more like a medical issue or A. Policy issue, but I think on the exit from quarantine. Economists could be really important because the tradeoffs we're talking about. Here are the kind of trade offs that regular people don't think about very much like the trade off between life and death versus economic activity and I, think there's also just a lot of room for economists here to be kind of sensible guides as we think about what will work and what won't work. Levitt like everyone we've already heard from agrees. An exit from quarantine won't work without a lot more testing I think there's been an enormous failure on the part of the government in getting. In place at any sensible plan, we have now requires millions millions of tests. You know per day far more than the capable we have, and really some the plans suggestion twenty million test today. The US is now performing around two hundred thousand tests today. The economy's losing sixteen to nineteen dollars a day half a trillion nearly a month. It would just seem like the right thing to do would be just dramatically scale up the investment, and that is Zach Cooper a healthcare economist at Yale. He's part of a group of economists. Economists who routinely collaborate with policymakers yet, so this is reaching out to folks on the hill in the Senate and the House folks in the executive branch. The White House at HHS Cooper Lake Lebed was quickly convinced that lack of testing was a huge problem, so I think right now from the fog of war where we just don't even know out widespread cove, it is across the population. If you've been keeping up with the news, you've probably heard about several studies that do claim to measure the spread of Covid, Nineteen But most of these studies aren't very reliable. They don't measure truly random sampling like the studies that use facebook to solicit people people who may already be feeling sick or the studies that test people were shopping at a grocery store. People who may be less isolated than the average person so I. Think the Best Studies we actually have for some of the studies that look at the prevalence of covert among pregnant MOMS that is women in Hospitals New York in this case who were having babies? That's probably the most reliable estimate of the prevalence cove in the population, because there is a group of folks who were very very health conscious were probably unfold leading. Going out whereas start testing shoppers, that group just looks different than the folks are sitting home. And what was the covid incidence among these women and you're seeing in New York. Those numbers are of on the order. Fifteen percent New York keep in mind has been the Kobe the epicentre. Does that mean the numbers elsewhere are much lower? No one really knows yet? That's why a pair of Dartmouth researchers the mathematician Daniel Rock, Mawr, and the political scientist Michael Heron have proposed truly random testing of just ten thousand Americans that they claim would predict how many people are infected. Another way to know of course would be to have much higher testing capacity. How will this happen? Let's first talk about what Cova tests are and what they can do. There are two kinds of tests. A molecular diagnostic tests usually taken with a nasal swab that looks for the virus itself and the blood tests that looks for antibodies signals. That person has already been fighting the corona virus. The idea the hope is that a positive antibody test means that you've got immunity Germany for instance is considering immunity certificates for people who test positive for antibodies but former CDC official Julie Gerber. Science isn't clear yet. First of all many of the tests that are now becoming available for antibody testing are not performing very well, and by that I mean they are giving false positives and false negatives, so it's hard to interpret unless you're test is one of those that has been done by a laboratory in a major medical center that's undergone sophisticated approval testing, or as come out of the FDA as an emergency use evaluation test. Second problem is that we don't know. Know what the antibody bristle means you might have an antibody which means you've been exposed to the virus, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're not going to get it again because we don't know if the antibodies are protective or not I hope they will be usually after infectious diseases you do see the antibodies confer some protection, but not always I think some people have the misunderstanding that we could know. Someone has an antibody that would be a return to work ticket. That's just not really the case, and if you think about HIV for example, everybody with HIV, infection has antibodies, but nobody is cured or protected because of those antibodies, so we have to know the answer to the meaning of the antibody test before we can really decide who should be tested. And when the FDA has granted emergency use authorization for more than sixty versions of the Cova test from multiple manufacturers, most of these tests are diagnostic. Are Antibody tests the first such authorisation went to the CDC on February Fourth I. Think there was a recognition that initially it was way too much regulation of testing, and that regulation was really choking off production, and they have loosened the reins quite a bit which allow lot of manufacturers to get expedited review and approval of their testing, but as we've been hearing, there's still not nearly enough testing available. Why not! One reason is that the US medical supply chain much of which runs through China has been significantly disrupted, but Cooper says that's only part of the answer. To market failures, the first is just the sheer scale of the externalities associated with testing that we are literally paying way too little protest we perform. That is there should be stronger financial incentives to produce test kits given. How valuable testing is to society. The second is we're looking to scale up huge numbers of tests on a scale. We've never done before. For a problem that's going to dissipate pretty dramatically in eighteen twenty four months, and so you're asking all of these firms to put out more than they ever have and bear the cost of doing so without the ability to recruit those costs the way we normally think about costs being recouped over fairly long periods in other words. If this were your company, would you invest a lot of money in ramping up to make millions of a product now for which there may not be much demand you're to. If there's a cove in nineteen vaccine. There won't be nearly as much need for covid nineteen diagnostic test, so the solution to that is just paying them a ton to do that now. And just how much is a ton? There's aren't that many production issues that two hundred and fifty billion dollars can't solve. That is precisely ten times. What Congress just directed toward corona virus testing in the latest relief package. But as Cooper points out if the economy is losing between sixteen and nineteen billion dollars a day. And, if greater testing capacity could help restart the economy thirty days earlier. That's a savings roughly five hundred billion dollars, which makes two hundred and fifty billion dollars for testing. Look pretty affordable. Cooper has a plan to ramp up production. The first thing to do is get prices aligned. We basically need the federal government to set a payment rate. For Cova tests that applies to all parties in the healthcare system right now he's got medicare paying a different rate from Medicaid. which is a different rate from each private insurer that needs to change because it just drives contracting frictions as you likely know. Economists aren't typically in favor of fixing prices at least under normal market conditions, but plainly these aren't those so that's one solution a single price. The second is that payment rate really needs to be quite high. On proportion to the social value of testing. I think in many ways. It would be almost impossible to understand. On testing right now. At the outset, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services CMS was paying between thirty and fifty dollars per cova test. It has since raise payments to one hundred dollars a test now. I actually think they should be paying dramatically more. Paying two hundred fifty dollars protests. That wouldn't be crazy. Frankly I think if you were paying a thousand dollars per test given the scale of harm or facing that itself would it be crazy either but price alone cooper says won't increase the supply of test kits. There are going to be supply chain problems in the production of tests, and in the material, necessary to support testing and so one of the things that we've called for. Is, using the defense production act to guarantee the production of some of the inputs to testing like reagents in like slobs. In case, you haven't been following the news lately and reading about the Defense Production Act, so the defense, Production Act broadly allows the federal government to steer the behavior of private firms to produce necessary supplies, and then there's a mechanism. For those firms to get reimbursed so the sort of crude way to think about it as we say to GM look GM. We are going to force you into the production of covid testing swamps. The trump administration has already invoked the defense. Production Act to get several firms to make mechanical ventilators, although as we discussed in a recent episode, ventilators haven't been in short supply as predicted, nor do they help Kobe nineteen patients as much as was anticipated, but again in the fog of war decisions are made fast with much uncertainty, no guarantees. The next logical step according to Zach Cooper and about everyone else we've been speaking with is to boost production of testing very substantially and very fast, so let's say that happens. Let's say Congress gets the message. That testing is vital enough to spend two hundred fifty billion dollars on, and that there are suddenly millions upon millions of diagnostic and antibody tests available. What happens next? Where when and how does all this testing take place? With many hospital systems already under strain from covid nineteen. Policymakers are talking about building separate infrastructure to deliver testing. But what if back? Infrastructure already existed? Ninety percent of Americans live within five miles of pharmacy and in urban areas. It's less than one point. Eight miles long pharmacy that Steve Chen he's a practicing pharmacist, and also of the Associate Dean for Clinical Fares at the University of southern. California School of Pharmacy there are roughly sixty seven thousand pharmacies in the US compared to fifty five hundred hospitals, and how does the training of a pharmacist compared to that of a physician pharmacist study to get a four? Four year doctorate degree after completing undergraduate degree, so years of training are really no different than physicians and other healthcare professionals that get a formal degree, and then furthermore, when pharmacy students are out in experience with training, they're training side by side with physicians nurses, other members of the healthcare team pharmacists are always there behind the scenes or sometimes upfront managing complex, dangerous medications, dosing medications, making recommendations or treatment changes with antibiotics for infectious diseases, so you might think that pharmacists would be considered healthcare providers. Due to a quirk of history, however, they are not. It really starts back with associates. Security Act in the social, security act healthcare providers are defined, and there's a long list of who is a healthcare provider. Everyone of course from physicians, all downs, nurses and chiropractors nutritionists psychologists. Pharmacists are on that list. The Social Security Act was written in nineteen, thirty, five and back then pharmacies were thriving businesses, and they did very well with compounded medications, and it was felt to be a critical role. There wasn't any push at that time to be recognized as a healthcare provider but today. That's more of a problem for pharmacists. Fast forward to today now reimbursement from Medicare. Reimbursement from Medicaid from health plans. It's all tied to the WHO is a provider of officially provider in the Social Security Act so states use that to say hey, we can't pay pharmacists because they're not officially. Healthcare providers Chen and other pharmacists researchers have done work showing that when pharmacists are actively involved in monitoring and adjusting medications, patient outcomes are considerably improved, but there's no mechanism that allows them to be compensated for such work. I asked Chen. What's keeping that from happening? So physicians don't necessarily WanNa. See Pharmacists Carving into that limited source of funding for healthcare than being paid fee for service, and this has left pharmacists as Steve. Chen describes it over trained and underutilized especially during a crisis like covid nineteen again there are more than ten times as many pharmacies in the US as there are hospitals with ninety percent of Americans living within five miles of a pharmacy. So would it may be a good idea to authorize pharmacists to administer covid nineteen tests. That is exactly what the US Department of Health and Human Services decided to do a couple of weeks ago. I was pleasantly surprised that it got done because we're often the forgotten stepchild. How many Kobe tests have been administered in California where you are by pharmacists now to date zero. Absolutely not because. Anytime. Any authorization occurs that any government level. There's a somewhat of a regulatory process right? The has to be established. There's the authorization and his translation of how it actually works on what can be done within each state and in California that clarity was sought from the Department of Public Health and the answer. We got back his no viruses are not allowed to do Kobe testing in California. That's even though pharmacists in California can test for diabetes and high cholesterol. These regulations differ widely from state to state some states for instance allow a pharmacist to medication doses or even write prescriptions themselves. Other states don't even allow a pharmacist to take patients temperature. In New York State Governor Andrew. Cuomo acted upon the HHS guidance, and just authorized the states roughly five thousand pharmacies to conduct Kobe. Nineteen testing as supplies permit of course. Pretend for moment that I am governor. NEWSOM governor of California which has this ruling that forbids pharmacists from administering the Kobe. Tests and you've got an audience with me. I say Steve, Chen. You are notable figure in the field of pharmacy. Give me your best reasons why it should happen and then tell me the biggest downside. I would say that there needs to be an exception made because the number of tests for forty million Californians that you need to get done. Every day is not going to get done in the current available outlets that you're thinking of whether hospitals or clinics or other similar locations, pharmacists are healthcare. Professionals are trained. They've been able to do this type of testing, and this is not going to be a difficult rollout if you empower pharmacists to be involved well professor. That sounds perfectly sensible. My Department of Health would not have forbidden pharmacy from administering Cova tests were they're not a really good reason? One of the reasons why my department of Health is justified in not having you do these tests. were. I would say that Your Department of Health is reading the Law as it's written, and that's the problem you've said yourself that we need to make adjustments be flexible and allow every health pressure to practice the top licensor order to beat this infection, and that's not happening. Pharmacist needed to be involved in containing the COVID nineteen faction incongruities by offering screening Advice Self Management Self Care Guidance Quarantine Directions, and if needed referral into the healthcare system, keeping patients from overwhelming emergency rooms in hospitals, and you know if pharmacists are not deployed in this widespread testing that's required to lift all these mitigation measures. We have out there. I don't think it's GonNa get done. Okay so. Let's say that pharmacies across the country are enlisted to administer millions upon millions of Kobe tests in the coming months like Steve. Chen would like to see. And that's also say that. The federal government comes up with two hundred and fifty billion dollars to create millions upon millions of cova tests like that cooper would like to see. Does that solve the testing problem. Does that clear the way for a smooth and safe exit from quarantine? Not necessarily you know one of the pieces of exiting from the quarantine is that everybody agrees we need to do enormous amounts of tests. That again is Steve Levin what I'm struck by is that no one is talking about the fact that even if we had those tests available? The incentive problem actually getting people to take those tests is a very difficult one. Somehow people are going to have to be compelled to do those tests and I think in many cases. You'll be tested every couple of weeks even though you have no symptoms. The chances that we're going to be able to get people voluntarily to go down to you. Know their pharmacy or whatnot, so I think we have a real incentive problem. What kind of incentive problem? This is a classic case of what economists call a negative extra analogy, the cost of me going out on the street when I'm. Are All born by other people right I, in fact, other people they get sick, but if I don't have symptoms and sometimes, the last thing I want to do is go get tested all the time K which is a hassle. Maybe I have to go stand by people who are sick to get tested, and then if I test positive, then I'm quarantined and maybe I lose my job. If I'm quarantine. Maybe I can't afford it, you know I have to pay the rent. Okay? That does sound like a real incentive problem, but luckily that's kind of problem that economists are really good. Good at I think there's an easy answer to the incentive problem that we can solve no difficulty at all. Okay, the answer so easy. Why don't you tell us what I think? The answers you got to make it worth people's while to take this test. What economists call internalizing the extra analogy? So we're going to need a lot of apparently healthy people people without symptoms to take this test, so I think we should pay them. A sensible way to do that might be in the form of really big lottery, so you might even call it like panda, millions or something like that. So, you could imagine we could put something like. Five, hundred million dollars, a billion dollars a week into this lottery, and in order to get a lottery ticket. You'd have to go and get tested for covid and the social benefit would so swap the cost of doing this I mean a billion dollars a week or something, it's peanuts compared to even the existing cares act in almost vanishingly small compared to the cost overall of this disease. What's the difference? If you test positive or negative, though do you get more chances at the lottery? If you test positive because we want to incentivize people then to stay home for an additional two weeks or whatnot. I think you test positive. It may be good simpler because you're talking about. A small group of people I would simply just pay people to stay at home I would pay a big enough number that even if you don't feel sick, you'd want to stay home so something like I dunno two thousand dollars per week and you get paid that as long as you're testing positive. I would pay handsomely for people to stay at home. I mean I. Really Think if the incentive plan that I'm pushing. Put into place, our problem will not be getting people to stay home or to take the test are problem will be that people are going to cheat like crazy to try to get certain results to get into the lottery and whatnot, so I'd much rather have the problem of people too eager to tested and faking ovid. Then the problem we have, which is a pandemic in which people are out and about doing things and you don't know how to stop it. How would you respond to Steve Lebed spend? Millions idea. Let us. Know at radio at FREAKONOMICS DOT COM and if you really like the idea, let your governor now or someone else in position to make it happen. Also remember to subscribe to know stupid. Questions are new spinoff podcast with Angela Duckworth. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week until then take care of yourself and if you can someone else to. FREAKONOMICS radio is produced by stitcher and dubbed near productions. This episode was produced by Jack Pinski with help from Hickey. Our staff also includes. Glow Greg Rippin Daphne Chen Harry Huggins and Korean Wallace or Isabel O'Brien we had helped this week from James Foster. Our theme song is Mr Fortune. The hitchhiker's all the other music was composed by. We scare. You can get freakonomics radio an any podcast. APP, if you want the entire back catalogue, use the STITCHER APP or go to freakonomics dot com where we also published show notes and complete transcripts. Stitcher. Ugo what've you got planned for today? This way adventure can be found anywhere, but the best place to start is in the forest, most powerful matching theories and outside to discover incredible animals. And beautiful plants that come together to create an unforgettable adventure. So. Grab your loved ones and explorer mood. Possibilities visit discovertheforest dot org to find the closest forest park to you brought to you by the Ad Council. The US Forest Service. My teacher said that we should have a plan in case of an emergency. Do we have first thing I'M GONNA? Do is grab a flashlight with dead batteries. I'm going to start randomly throwing clothes in the bag. You two will be hiding in the closet and dad won't be able to find you, and that's when we both. Both start crying uncontrollably. Can you pass the cutlets winging? It is not an emergency plan. Make sure your kids know what to do. During an emergency who to call where to meet what to pack search ready. Kids at NYC DOT GOV or call three one brought to you by the New York City Office of Emergency Management and the Ad Council I love. Google, what have you got planned for today? Come on. This adventure can be found anywhere, but the best place to start is in the forest. Powerful magic there is at outside to discovering credible animals, Slough and beautiful plants that come together to create an unforgettable adventure. So, grab your loved. Ones and explorer ruled of possibilities visit discovertheforest dot org to find the closest forest park to you brought to you by the Ad Council and the US. Forest, service, my teacher said that we should have a plan in case of an emergency. Do we have first thing I'm? GonNa do is grab a flashlight with dead batteries I'm going to start randomly throwing clothes in the bag. You two will be hiding in the closet and dad won't. Won't be able to find you, and that's when we both start crying uncontrollably. Can you pass the cutlets winging? It is not an emergency plan. Make sure your kids know what to do. During an emergency who to call where to meet what to pack search ready kids at NYC DOT GOV or call three one one brought to you by the New York, city, office, of Emergency Management and the Ad Council. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by. Follow us on facebook, twitter and instagram. This is the liberty. Be Your daily source for news and activists updates produced in partnership with the. SNL S. network and listeners like you. Online at SNL S NETWORK DOT com. I'm MC Murrow with your latest edition at the Liberty. Golden starting at one, thousand, seven hundred twenty dollars sober at fifteen dollars and forty four cents and bitcoin training around eight, thousand, eight hundred eighty dollars. Today's gold silver in bitcoin prices are brought to you by brave botanical, high quality, custom and C. D. at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Ray Botanical is activists known and mission driven. Liberty and brava technicals believe so strongly in the power of freedom. We're giving it away for free. Just go to liberty beat dot news slash recreate on. This is the liberty beat at SNL s network DOT Gob. In the news as nineteen rips through the United States, a record, twenty six point, five million Americans have filed for jobless benefits since mid-march alone numbers not seen since the height of the Great Depression. Mid Press news reports at tens of millions have been laid off furloughed or seeing business dry up in a matter of weeks. The unemployment figures or actually a significant underestimate of the problem, according to a new study by the nonpartisan DC. Thank tank the Economic Policy Institute. Their survey of over twenty four thousand Americans found that for every ten people who successfully filed for unemployment benefits last four weeks three to four additional people attempted to apply, but were unable to navigate the system to make a claim. To additional people do not even try because of the complicated application process, adding the numbers to the millions of unemployed Americans makes the likely total of unemployed top forty million people of that from forty year low in February. Ever, wonder where we find all the news report right here on the liberty. Meet visit. SNL asked ought. To get the world's most censored media published all in one place saviors l. from the endless time spent searching for reliable alternative media. L. S. News makes it quick and easy. NO ASS! No Click Bait just roll headlines Twenty four hours a day. Visit SNL DOT COM and get informed today without the corporate media span. Your news now continues. The New York State Education Department has blocked schools from using state funding mechanism to purchase facial recognition systems. According to the New York. Civil Liberties Union the lockport city. School district purchased a facial recognition system using state funds allocated through the Smart Schools Bond Act. The program set aside two billion dollars to improve learning an opportunity for students throughout New York activists post reports in an unannounced move. The Education Department changed SBA application requirements, specifically, barring funds for the purchase of facial recognition technology. The New York Education Department website now stipulates quote. The Review Board is not currently approving plans that include facial recognition, technology, or other similar self, learning analytics, software and quote. In an email deputy director education policy center New York Civil Liberties Union Stephanie Coil called the change huge. Breaking Defense a digital magazine that covers military issues reports that Israel may ask for its US aid early, possibly a lump sum that could be as high as seven point six billion dollars, men, press news reports that would work out almost twenty one million dollars per day from American taxpayers, even though the US approaching four trillion dollar deficit, the largest in the world and Israel. Israel typically have a lower unemployment rate than the United States. The report is breaking Defense Israel correspondent area goes and Israeli citizen who served in Israeli military and as close to the Israeli security establishment. It goes. These article states that because of the coronavirus pandemic quote Israel's Ministry of Defense and High Command hammered out an emergency plan for an appeal to Washington and quote. USA Israel is normally dispersed in October. In a lump sum that is deposited to an interest bearing, Israeli account in New York that or`Sir Bank. 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Does your cable company do that for you? I don't think so. Get all the best TV programming your fingertips at a fraction of the price of cable TV, so say Attias had she goodbye to the high. Cable Bill and save up to forty five percent on dish TV packages today. These are limited time offers ain't can change at any time. Call, fast, eight, hundred, four, zero, five, two, five, six, one, eight, hundred, four, zero, five, two, five, six, one, eight, hundred, four, zero, five, two, five, six, one. That's eight, hundred, four, zero, five, twenty, five, sixty one. Welcome to statewide reports and conversations from in and around Illinois. I'm Shawn Crawford coming up this hour. A husband and wife sacrificing time with their family to battle, the pandemic will hear from them. Outbreaks in meat packing plants have raised concerns about the nation's meat supply. We'll find out what's happening Chicago White. SOX, baseball announcer Jason Bonetti has been his downside interacting with fans using social media to relay messages. They send them all, and I've been reading them. Video and people have really opened up and talk about family members who they can't be around or they lost the past. And it's been really enriching in made me feel like I can help people the conversation with Bonetti. That's head. Check in on bicycle shops. They're staying open, instinct, busy and more this hour on statewide. Why have thousands of aspiring authors teamed up with Christian? Faith publishing to publish their book because Christian faith. Publishing is an author friendly publisher who understands your Labor is more than just a book. We provide authors, freedom and flexibility throughout the publishing process, professional book, Lean Award, winning design and some of the highest royalty structures in the publishing industry, and is always you will retain one hundred percent of the rights, dear book with looking to find a company that I could trust one that assisted in the editing process completely most. Most important qualities that I was looking for was a publisher who was honest and upfront, no hidden costs or fees and owning the rights to my own work. Christian faith publishing will publish market and sell your books in all major bookstores online booksellers as well as specialty Christian bookstores call for your free author Submission Kit Eight hundred six. Oh, seven, oh, six, six, five, eight, hundred six. Oh, seven, oh, six, six, five, eight, hundred, six, zero, seven, zero, six, six, five. That's eight hundred six. Oh, seven Oh, six sixty five. Welcome to statewide reports and conversations from in and around Illinois I'm Shawn Crawford the head. The story of an Illinois couple both working on the front lines in the fight against Cohen Nineteen will hear about the sacrifices they're making. We'll also hear how some small businesses are adapting to the current situation in bicycle stores are open. They're considered essential businesses, apparently strong stories and more coming up this hour. Major League Baseball is one of the casualties of the corona virus. The spring, the start of the season has been postponed, but what does that mean for those whose job it is to announce those games Chicago. White SOx broadcaster Jason Bonetti seems to be staying busy still in touch with fans, and even providing some levity during this uncertainty and Jason Bonetti joins us now Jason. Thanks for taking time to be with us. Sean, thank you for having me so I mentioned. You're staying busy during this time. What have you been doing with no games broadcast. So the most enriching thing for me has been I've asked people on twitter to send messages from them to their loved ones, and I've been reading them as videos and people have really opened up and been willing to talk about family members who they can't be around, or they've lost in the past or how baseball has touched them, so that's been. That's been really enriching and made me feel like I can help people. do virtual hugs essentially which is nice. I'm also recruiting assorted other sportscasters to do. famous scenes from movies on twitter over dressing up and acting things out your fulfilling these requests from from fans as well and some of those are pretty comical, I think I. Heard one where you. They wanted you to trash talk. Some people making cub fans. You know or some other. Other relative, and then, and then as you mentioned. Some of those are very heartfelt, I saw one that's involved someone who had lost their mother, and they wanted you to read a tribute to her mom, please. No, we would have given anything to be there with you. And your final moments to hold your hand to kiss your forehead and let you know that everything's GonNa be okay. That, you don't need to be scared. That you've taken care of us and we're GONNA be fine. You don't need to fight anymore out of safety concerns. We couldn't be there with you, but you're brave. Selfless nurses use their own cell phones and put us on Speaker, so we could say goodbye in our own way. Mom I'm GonNa, tell you something you already knew, but I want more people to know. You were a kind, loving and gentle soul, and most importantly your loved. Please no, her name Betty Carney who knows maybe mom's looking down, and she will see this, and it will bring a smile to her face from your son. John and your daughter Kathleen. We love you. John, a lot of people are going to be thinking about you. And Kathleen and Betty I think for a long time. Thank you for sharing. It to me. It's a reminder that every time we walked past somebody when we were all outside. We missed out on knowing that there was somebody inside that body that we just walked past and when you sit on an airplane, and you don't talk to the person next to you. All of those are just missed opportunities to learn about what made a person what they are and we don't have time to do it with everybody we walk by this. Not Meet scolding myself or anyone else, but it's a reminder that everybody has something that they're dealing with. And? It's also reminder of just how much time people spend with baseball. Over one hundred sixty two games three hours a game. Hypothetically, that's four hundred and eighty hours I mean. We're talking about twenty days of your life over the course of the season. If you watch the entire game and we are a major part of people's lives that are missing now and sometimes. Even, sports announcers can think sports are silly for a brief fleeting moment when it's nine to one in the thinning, and the is over, and you say well, you know this is, this is over. And did something that anyone right now. WHO's a baseball fan with? Give a lot of money for it just to see a nine one game in the eight live. And so it's a reminder of how important baseball truly is to our culture, and it's not something that's silly at the civic institution that is deep in people's hearts. We should also mention when it comes to health challenges and many people are facing those right now. You've had your own. You've had to deal with through the years. talk about those if you could. Yeah I have cerebral palsy and very early on in life I was in and out of hospitals and. It's interesting as I reflected on even the first couple of weeks of all this sort of thing loss of Career and the laws of commerce and everything going on, and it is truly awful for so many people, and so many people have it worse than I do currently. But the thing that has helped me get through the times when it's tough for me, mentally has been the reminder that hey for for nine years when I was a kid. I lost summers. You know in and out of hospitals and. Surgical done is not the greatest way to build your social circle and come into school with casts on and things like that. It's not the greatest way to build your social circle and I made it. After nine years of that, and so you know the next twenty seven years were sort of dedicated to forgetting it. And at a time of crisis, it has sort of come back to me. How important it can be to me to remember that. Yes. This is awful for so many, and it's you know going to get worse before it gets better as the experts say, but this, too, shall pass is something that I remind myself of every day. We're talking with Chicago White SOx announcer Jason Bonetti Jason you mentioned Cerebral Palsy and you've really been more of an educator about this. In fact, you produce segments called awkward moments. I've seen those where you let some of your humor come in while still delivering a message to people. What do you have CPI and you're walking around the world? Sometimes people look out of curiosity sometimes people will to see if you need a hand, which don't but thanks anyway. Sometimes. People look out of sheer panic. Like at a museum with wildly valuable antiquities say. Pottery from Roman. Times I'm pretty sure I. Know what the Security Guard thing. I. kind of like bounce back and forth, and he's talking to a friend. He's not even paying attention. To the huge, Vesey's stolen this conversation's. Getting closer swerving. Dude. It's all right. You're just experiencing disbelieve ability the condition of observing person with disabilities do something completely typical for them which you feel like. Oh my goodness. I can't believe they're doing this. I'm not going to break your face. I'm a guy who believes that anything that survived Rome, burning the Crusades, and being dug up by pray, aggressive, great hunting, Grad students and survived me as well. Yeah, I don't have many awkward moments anymore. Because I see anybody on a daily basis, it's did them in conjunction with Cerebral Palsy Foundation and the guy who was in charge at the time Richard Allen and And we just thought it would be nice to have a smile while we told people. What might be a better practice for how to handle people with disabilities out in public and what I'd give to have somebody judge being public right now, but they still are really important. Because when we all get out of this isolation situation, we're going to have the opportunity to reset our mind sort of and and rethink exactly how we treat people and and I. You know the the. The Cerebral Palsy Foundation does such great work with awareness and let alone medical care and I was just really happy. Be Part of it. You grew up in the Chicago area. The south suburbs homeward floss more high school. Where you a white sox fan growing up, I was I, was just Docs fan growing up my dad. I was a cubs fan, but my mom I converted him. He's very happy socks and now, but yeah I went to stocks names a bunch over the summers. We never had season tickets, but it was always you know hey, what are we doing this Friday well? We're just going to go to the socks game like that was the default thing that we did and so I grew up with the Frank Thomas Ozzy Gin Jack McDowell. Roberto Hernandez Robin. Ventura White Sox I could list a bunch of them, but those were the the nineties teams. We're the ones that really got me into baseball and you grew up. I'm assuming listening to Ken Hawk Harrelson as well and then you take his place at the broadcast booth. That's got to be surreal. Yeah it was wild like I have this vivid memory of when I was eight or so walking around gym class Churchill Elementary School, doing a hawk, Harrelson impersonation, and now I'm liked the idea that I would be replacing such a legend how a hall of Famer! Is a truly remarkable thing and I am so grateful like part of what's carried me through all this too is. A you know your mind goes to the worst places sometimes, and you just think of like worst case scenario like what if what if there's never baseball ever again and there's GonNa. Be Baseball like we'RE GONNA. Get through this. This is GonNa burn out and science will catch up, but I think that I made it to the majors, and was the guy who followed Hawk Harrelson. Very accomplished feeling for for this guy. You also touched on it a moment ago. About what's called sportscasters scenes, other sportscasters getting together, and you're doing some fun takeoffs on movies. How did that all come about? How did was at your idea? Somebody else's idea. Yeah I was just kind of brainstorming how to get sportscasters to do fun stuff and I thought about. The fact that we're in a building with emotion, and we play off the crowd so much like let's let's see what sportscasters have chops for performance wise, otherwise though I called Lynn Casper from the cubs and I said Hey. I have this idea. Would you do the first team with me? And he said Yeah. Let me pick a and and so he talked to his wife Pan and they came up with a couple and decided on ned. Ryerson and Phil Connors from Groundhog Day and lend was just Super Freeman. Amazing as Ned Ryerson I mean, he had the he had the oddity, and he had the weirdness of Ned, and the earnestness, and it was just it was fantastic. Hey, Phil Phil. Phil Qatar's I thought that was you how you doing buddy? Thanks for watching. Don't tell me you don't remember me I sure as heck. Fire. Remember you not a chance, then Ryerson Neil knows net net ahead. Come on, Buddy, Case Western, Heino you know maybe to a week I've done therefore four out. I've got a fifth one posting very soon as we talk and. It's just been great fun to have fun with other announcers. Because that's what I. That's what I missed from what we do is we sit there and we talk about a game together and the energy that comes off each person is is truly astounding and helps as each get to a better show. That's the perfect segue to move into the broadcast. I saw last season with you and Bill Walton former NBA Great and college basketball. Great Bill Walton is always marched to his own drum and he seemed to do that during the broadcast. If somebody hasn't seen that I, would suggest going looking up online, but was that like working with him. Was it was a challenging was fun was at both. I love bill dearly so I knew it was gonNA be great harm. The thing about calling it challenging is having the most curious person in the world and the most interested in information person in the world next to you. Is Always GonNa be fun, but it's always going to be challenging like you said because you can sign up for bill and you can say Oh, you know I'll. I'll handle whatever he goes, and then he goes somewhere. You don't expect I. mean the First Foul Ball of that game. He goes. WHOA and I thought what what are we doing here? And he was, he was just basically saying like. Wow, they're all going to be like that. That's going to be great fun I. It's like it's like he was a kid watching A. A game for the first time, even though the absolutely wasn't, and he knows a lot of baseball people and he's a big fan of the game, but he plays with his partner, and he plays on different ideas that you just don't see in baseball broadcast. And he was, he was tremendous. I will cherish that for every day that I'm on the earth, and he's become a really good friend. He's a sweetheart of a man. He cares so much about the world and and I missed. I missed getting to see him right now. Before I. Let you go Jason. I have to ask you. Do you think we're going to see baseball season? You, know it it. It really depends on the science I mean as everybody is saying and and I wish it would get through to. Human in America every leader in America. Widespread testing is the key. I mean that's what I've seen in the news is that's what's opened up? Germany, that's what's starting to. At least that's what's opened up the Taiwanese baseball league. That's what South Korea did I mean we? We need to be at the vanguard of testing, and we aren't at this point yet. For whatever reason, but the closer we get to that the closer we can get to two baseball coming back I. mean it really is all about the science. It's not about any person's individual opinion. It's about the time. To hear you broadcast and Games again soon Jason Bonetti is an announcer for the Chicago White Sox. You also can hear him on several networks broadcasting other sports as well, and he's a nice guy for taking time to speak with us, Jason, thanks once again. Thank you for having me. Reminder you can tune in each week at this time for reports and conversations from in and around Illinois right here on statewide. Governor Jay Pritzker is planning to sign an extended stay at home order that will last until the end of May. Mike Smith tells us more. Governor Pritzker announcement comes at a time when the state is soon expected to reach a daily peak and deaths from Covid, nineteen pritzker says data from experts like doctors and scientists say the state has made progress, but it still has ways to go. I'm asking you to hold on for just a little while longer to help. Make sure that we all see through. Through to the other side of the struggle, the executive order comes with some new mandates like requiring face masks in stores and public areas. Some non essential businesses will have the opportunity to take online and phone orders. Public areas like some state parks, golf courses and greenhouses can also reopen, and some elective medical procedures will be able to resume I'm Mike Smith. Still ahead were hearing about Kobe nineteen outbreaks at meat packing plants. What impact does that have on the nation's meat supply? We'll find out and what about the State's budget's Illinois facing a huge financial storm. Thanks to the corona virus will hear what that could mean going forward. Stay with us. There's more to come on statewide. Hey travelers. Do you want to save money on your next flight? Then pick up the phone and call. That's right call because the best prices are not online, they're with smartfares. See smartfares has special deals with the airlines when they have unsold seats. 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Did you know in the US nineteen people die each day waiting for an organ transplant? If you've ever considered becoming living organ dome, or if you're someone in need of an organ transplant, please visit matching donors. Dot Gov. We're back on statewide. I'm Shawn Crawford coming up parents working healthcare these days or having to make some tough decisions. You're from one family making the choice to stay apart. Up next meat packing plants employ people who work side by side that makes for easy spread of covid nineteen as employees fallen ill, some plants shut down for Hervas Public Media Amy Mayor reports. That's led to some confusion about the supply of meat in the country. After pressure from local and state officials forced the closing of the Smithfield. Foods Slaughterhouse in Sioux Falls South Dakota the CEO said it was quote pushing our country perilously close to the edge in terms of our meat supply. But it had hundreds of employees test positive for Covid nineteen. And since then US agriculture secretary, Sonny Perdue has been trying to dial back. Concern emphasizing that the problem isn't supply the when you really think about the fact that about half of our calories consumed outside the home that's been a dramatic shift in our consumption patterns, and the misalignment of production and supply is created some real challenges here that comment came amid his announcement about. About how USDA will spend its covid nineteen relief money, he says in addition to direct payments to farmers. It will spend three billion dollars on fresh produce, meat and dairy products. Those will be redirected from restaurants and other institutions to people in need. The distribution will take in conjunction with the private sector going to food, banks and other nonprofit faith, based and community. Of rations there locally, the country has hundreds of millions of pounds of meat in cold storage and general. That's intended for export or for specials like you'd see in a weekly ad, it can also help with supply hiccups. Oklahoma State University Livestock Economist Daryl. Peel says we're not running out of meat. We could use less meat and you know it. Might I mean it might or might not be a case of not having absolutely any it might be having last might be having something a little different people. May By less or even no meat, fancy cuts beef tenderloin may become more affordable and available at supermarkets. I will farmer Nick Torkelsson. Has a barn full of market ready Berkshire Hogs? He says specialty pork variety normally goes to restaurants now. He's selling one at a time. People call him looking for pork. He delivers the hog to the local meat locker for butchering. Factory and you got to go up to the locker and get it in about. About ten days two weeks after it's been delivered up there and then have your mean. It's not a long term solution, but Torkelsson says it keeps the money in town feeds a local family and helps him reduces losses. Economists point out that when the market is functioning, normally prices adjust accordingly to supply from farms and demand from consumers this hold up smack in the middle at the processor. Is Something New Historian Marine? Ogle has written about the evolution of the meat industry. There's never been a case to my knowledge in any way where the breakdown in the meat supply has come because. Labor Force itself is. In danger or they're not coming in because they don't WanNa die from virus, or they're getting sick on the job, and then other people are getting sick. Mogul says meet companies have mechanized every possible link in the chain to maximize efficiency and reduce risk the problem here is that the the the weakest link for the packer is the fact that he's still have to rely on human labor, and that makes them especially vulnerable right now. You can't social sent packing plant in addition to Smithfield J. B. S.. Tyson and other companies have sick workers. USDA inspector's required to be onsite. have also fallen ill. Iowa State University Livestock Economists Lee Schulz says rolling closures that allow some plans to keep running will help prevent shortages in supply. We're off of the in a real header. Impact because the situation is not impacting states you know at the same rate state, government and business responses have varied. The pork industry has publicly requested that processor stay open. If that passed, a consumers shuts down, farmers may have to euthanize pigs onsite amy mayor harvest public media. Healthcare. Workers are facing some serious risks dealing with patients who have covid nineteen side effects public media's Christine Herman has the story of a couple from Kankakee. They're married. They both work in the front lines of the pandemic. They've also made another sacrifice amid the crisis living apart from their three children. Their story is part of a series called essential voices. My Name's Bryce, Beumer, I'm a paramedic firefighter. For beumer and I have been an emergency room nurse for the last three years. Most of the calls are still your typical nine one one emergency medical halls, but we were taking most of the precautions that everybody has the covid nineteen. We wear masks and ninety five, and we bring in surgical masks for the patient and family. No matter what the call is I. Take over a month now. We've been seeing patients with these symptoms. The consensus seems to be that. We've been seeing this since January A. we just didn't know what it was. It definitely is anxiety provoking for sure you know I've heard a lot of nurses will. We didn't sign up for those, but we did. Sign up for this, and that's why we all continue to show up because we love our patients. Were seen with the virus is that patients are showing minor symptoms? They are absolutely okay. Discharge. Annan suddenly, people are progressing I being. We're having a lot of cardiac arrest on patients that were finding our. And now they are one of the hardest things. Is that when these patients are crashing? Are we see that they're crashing? Trying to stop yourself from just running into the room without any kind of gear on is extremely heartbreaking. You have to make sure that you're covered. I know there's been several times where we just masking diagnose on gotta go, because he's patients are on very quickly. It's been a completely new experience for us. I've had a patient that. I sat with as died because the families can't come into the hospital. That has been extremely hard because nobody should ever have to die alone, and we will always make sure no one ever dies alone. We will always be there with them. When we started seeing these really extreme cases, my husband, who is a firefighter paramedic, and since I'm emergency room nurse. We're both around it and we both can take time off, so we decided to have our three children coach who my parents house knowing what she seen what she's dealing with. You know that help make my decision into agreeing with her to have the children go over and stand her parents house for the time being. It was a hard decision, but they understood what was going on. They know Whitney and Britney. Do for jobs especially earliest. WHO's eleven? He does understand our middle is eight and our youngest use only year and a half, so he's the only one who doesn't understand. We tax back and forth. Forth Video Chat with them a couple times a week. We see if they need anything. We drop stuff off and if they come outside, we stay away from you. KNOW NO HUGS! No kisses! Anything like that, but you know they'll show us. You know some stuff that they've been doing at their grandparents house, naked fourths and whatnot and driving tractors around our youngest cuyler. He doesn't understand why mom and dad have picked them up. And why you know after ten fifteen minutes, you know. Blowing kisses and we get in the car and leave. It's been extremely hard. Might Children are pretty much everything in the world to me? It's so quiet in her house. You could hair pin drop. It's so strange so when I'm looking for to most is having the kids back in the house, having them yelling and screaming toys all over the place thumb. Thumb in the backyard, jumping on the trampoline in all just being able to be their dad, and hold them and hug him I just want the kids to know that you know mom and dad love him that we're doing this for their best interest and that this is all going to be over soon and nothing like this hopefully will ever happen again. Can't wait to hold them again. The voices of Bryce. Britney Beumer, a paramedic and nurse who live in Kankakee. Small businesses across the country deemed non-essential or struggling in the wake of covid Nineteen Peter Midland from W. J has more on how homegrown businesses are adapting Fargo Skate Park and skate shop in dekalb. Needed to pivot their shop was temporarily shuttered, and their income slashed in half, but even with stay at home orders, skateboarding itself isn't outlawed so to stay in business and stay true to the diy feel that runs deep in skate culture. They started building and selling ramp so social distancing skaters can practice in their driveway aerial reese is the owner of Fargo she says someone even installed one in their kitchen, but reese decided the ramp business needed an extra creative touch I wouldn't. WanNa make it gene goal? I want him to get jingle and for some reason. I wanted to have like the year making model of car. That's right jingle. They've ramped up the digital presence with Youtube. Skating tutorials for kids that come in for lessons and Skate Merchandise Raffles on Instagram, Reece's main goal is just to keep her employees paid, and she also applied for small business relief like the paycheck protection program. It's a federal loan part of the cares. Act Boasts Steiner is the Illinois district director for the Small Business Administration. He explained the program if the business owner uses. Uses at least seventy five percent of the proceeds of that loan on payroll and payroll expenses, and keeps their headcount consistent than that loan can be up to one hundred percent fully forgivable meaning that it is paid off by the federal government, but recess says like many small business owners. She still waiting for city able says this is the most difficult time. She's had a small business owner. She's been grooming dogs. Dogs for fifty years and headed storefront for thirty. She's the owner of Canine. Enable dog grooming in Rockford and Pacatan Ika. She spent the last few weeks calling clients, cancelling and trying to reschedule through an uncertain future, able in her two employees file for unemployment. Luckily, her landlord waved rent until they're back to work now. She's figuring out what exactly her loan options are I. Don't want to fight for too much. Much I don't want a lot of debt. I'm want to try to save my business with as little debt coming out of this as possible because we're all going to have it. And even when her doors reopen able is concerned, it will take time for business to return to what it was hopefully. She says they'll be plenty of dogs who need cleaning. I work GONNA. Be Cut out for me then what? It's GONNA be crazy. But I look forward to getting back to work I'm not ready for this retirement stuff, Karen Chin the CO founder and proprietor of books on I in Dixon. She says books are the perfect tool for pandemic. You could read it, and so it's entertainment, and then if you really had to, you could use for cleaning you can. Actually you could use it for food and a good source of fiber, and you can use it for fuel. She says their. Their sales began to plummet right before the stay at home order and Chin says books on first sells books, but in the Amazon age, people come in for the experience. They sit around drinking coffee, talking to each other in perusing shelves. That's not possible right now, so some are buying books online. While other loyal customers are finding new ways to support them one family and asked if they could walk by and Hafer show them puzzles through the front window. Literally Doing Window Shopping Chin says people are buying anything from self help to fiction. Especially Kids Books Chins also apply for government relief programs, but the application for the paycheck protection program has changed several times, which makes it more complex for her and her banker. It's terrible. It's really difficult which I understand because everything is being rolled out so quickly. Chin is also tried to get disaster loan assistance through the small business administration, those approved can get an up to ten thousand dollar advance, which Steiner said started to roll out on April, tenth shelter place orders extent at least until the end of April and the federal small business relief funding recently ran out of money until Congress can pass another plan. Plan but even as they try to stay afloat Chin and the other small business owners from books to dog grooming to skateboarding. Say what they miss most of their communities, the dedicated customer and friends I'm Peter Madeline, governor, Gb Pritzker and others are predicting the corona virus, a long lasting blow to the state's finances. same dunk logs floors. What analysts are expecting and what state lawmakers are planning to do about it? Governor Jay Pritzker made no bones about saying what Illinois's financial fallout from covid nineteen might look like he appeared with other state finance experts and a press briefing earlier this month budget experts estimate that Illinois will have a two point seven billion dollar shortfall of revenues for this fiscal year. At a four point, six billion dollar shortfall for next fiscal year, pritzker explained those numbers are just estimates, but keep in mind. The state's current fiscal year will end in about two months. The state treasury could have several billion dollars less than what it was supposed to by then. Why is this happening? While Simple Predator says states like Illinois. Get the lion's share of their money from three sources, income sales and corporate taxes, but of thousands of residents are out of work and businesses of all kinds are closing. That adds up to a big drop in springfield bound cash. This is a public health crisis. But. It is accompanied by massive economic disruption that's unprecedented in modern history, financial analysts, and even state officers themselves have said Illinois would be pressed to find extra cash in a downturn like the one pandemic has produced. Here's comptroller Susana Mendoza back in February. Sixty thousand dollars in our rainy day fund, it is not enough to cover thirty seconds worth of expenditures for this state of operating expensive sixty thousand dollars. It's laughable, so it's actually very sad and is if that weren't enough. A big chunk of Cash Illinois has already earned won't even come in for another few months. The income tax deadline was delayed until July fifteenth, so while plenty of workers are still getting paid. The state won't see a share of that money. Until next fiscal year we have another big chunk of it waiting out there and that Latin timing or the changing timing collecting that revenue is going to make a difference for the state. State. That's Ralph Martini. WHO DIRECTS THE CENTER FOR TAX AND BUDGET ACCOUNTABILITY? He says Cova nineteen is dealing the state a one two punch. Not only will it take more time to get all of that tax money, but there will likely be less to go around and the problem with that is a lot of people are relying on that money. Trickle down to their communities to fund essential services. Obviously, the public sector has to be the primary purveyor of those or low to moderate income families, going and access to quality schools have access to healthcare won't have safe communities or or interventions that are appropriate for abusing the lucky children. They won't have us. Bring us back to the state budget. Lawmakers will have to approve a spending plan by July first, but what it will look like remains more of an open question than it usually does Mike Clemens, who's attacks policy consultant and who worked for twenty years at the Illinois Department of Revenue says with several billion dollars to make up and fast hard choices will have to be made Illinois. Get Out of the fiscal hole. Let's him. This got exacerbated. They just got deeper wolf taste very difficult decisions on raising taxes and cutting spending, and it's probably going to have to be some combination of both so if you're a state lawmaker, what do you do when a multibillion dollar budget hole is staring you in the face representative Mike Celeski, who's one of the lawmakers crafting that plan says it's easier when you've had some practice. He remembers the Illinois just a few years ago when there was no budget at all and fourteen billion dollars in late bills had piled up. I'm not looking forward to doing this again, but. We do know what we're up against, and I think it's taking a little bit of the steam out of What's coming our way to to know that? We dug ourselves out of this before? Though many are meeting right now. In remote working groups, it's still on if and when lawmakers will return to the State House to vote on spending and as the Leschi, says they're still plenty left to do, and it'd be a lot of. hard hard work, and at times trade, and and not in innovative probably, but the answer is Industry today I'm Sam Dunk Law. You're listening to statewide. find all our episodes and links to the reports and conversations. We bring you each week at statewide show dot com, stay with us as a father of a soldier in the Army National Guard. There's lots of advantages you can go to eleanor state. College tuition free you. You can get up to fifty thousand dollars in student loan repayments. The Guard's going to give them direction it teaches. Responsibility teaches you to be on time. Put you through some things that are going to instill confidence in you. If they're concerned about what kind of person that's GonNa make their kid I can say it absolutely make him a better person visit. National, guard Dot. com today sponsored by the Illinois National Guard. Hi I'm so, FIA. And my mom is one of the two hundred and twenty thousand people in Illinois living with Alzheimer's. Last winter she went on a walk and didn't come home right away. Luckily, a neighbor saw she was confused and stopped to help her home, but now I'm worried about her. Wandering I'm trooper Shuman, and as an Illinois State Trooper I hear the story too often. Sixty percent of people with Alzheimer's will wander at some point and thanks to silver search new programming Illinois law enforcement officials like me are better trained how to respond law. Enforcement agencies aren't the only ones getting training. The general public is learning more about dementia and how we can help. Did you know a person can get an Alzheimer's diagnosis in their fifty s? Learn the warning signs of Alzheimer's and how you can help. Keep our loved one safe at silver. Search Illinois Dot Org sponsored by the Alzheimer's Association. We'll find out more about a key part of containing covid nineteen contact tracing that story still ahead. This time of year is usually a peak period for bicycle stores. As warmer weather prompts residents to buy a set of wheels or fix up what they have in the garage. Governor Jay pritzker shutdown order designates bicycle stores as essential businesses. Charlie Schlinkert reports even with the pandemic. The bicycle business is well peaking as usual. Michael Wilson of Wilson Cycle and fitness in Bloomington says customers have a variety of reasons, the person that is going and working at a restaurant or a hospital or One of these essential businesses that that doesn't try. That needs to use his bike for transportation, or you know the people that are going crazy. Wilson Says Gym's closed, and no one should do. Group sports then makes cycling attractive. Clear your head, get out and get some some miles and get some exercise. Get healthy because goes i. mean that's what? That's what this whole thing is all about you know on us to. Be Outdoors and get healthy, and you know be a little more. A little bit more solitude. Cycling season started slow because of the weather Vitesse. Chris Koos normal says things have picked up in hurry where about two and a half weeks behind. On our repair schedule for running out the kids bikes. Were doing almost the same business. We did last year this time. The endemic is effecting buying patterns. Karen Davis Co owns Bloomington cycle and fitness. Saying a lot of just entry level bikes for sanity, and for how and for those you know Solo rides that you can do without needing to come into contact with anyone. Slimmer, staff and hours because of the pandemic mean, the people left are busier. Nothing, but keeping the wheels on. All three bike stores in Bloomington normal say business is close to normal in spite of barriers. Visiting Showrooms Davis says there's an uptick people seeking repairs for bikes that have hung on a hooker collected dust in the garage. Bragging out that they haven't had out in years and wanting to rise them now for something to do outside repair might not be cost effective, but some plays a role according to the tests sale associate Ethan less go. Sometimes it's like Oh, no, that's all right. It's been my family for a I. WanNa. Keep writing it and we told you understand, but we're definitely about that saying. Hey, you're getting up there and cost your about spending more money than you bought this bike. For inquiries about sales of new bicycles have been harder to gauge in plan for during the pandemic, according to Karen Davis David deals like we're getting as many inquiries Sundays. It feels like absolutely none. It's just really unpredictable right now. Michael Wilson agrees depend. DEMOC has affected the pace of the seasonal business. More spread out. It seems in years past be locked. It would come in at once. now it just seems like we're getting pretty steady amount in through the week and everything and it's. A little bit more cautious, obviously about bringing and everything in all three bicycle shops have enhanced protections Wilson asks people to schedule a time and offers touch list. Drop off and pick up. He says he's store smells of Lysol. He wipes down between every customer workers at all three stores disinfect the bikes before repair, and then again after doing the work, they offered touch. Louis payment with invoices or processing credit cards by phone. Bloomington cycle fitness offers extensive phone consultation on fit models and brands. Karen. Davis is. They had built up the store website over the last few years, but there are many bikes and fit is important to. Set up a bike for a test. Ride and mess a customer in the parking lot with. All the precautions brought it back in Jose town and got it ready for sale the sale of the fault, so we're just really scrambling and doing everything we can. This is allows every day. We all these measures Davis's. The business feels really odd, and it's funny from owning retail for the past eleven years I've never discouraged people to shop and I feel like that's kind of. This route I'm taking now. You know I'd love to help you, but they're going so much. We can do is not usually my attitude. One part of spring bicycling, not the same. All three stores facilitate group rides and area. Riding clubs do more perhaps thirty a month in all in the region, according to Wilson, those are gone now. Spring races have canceled to Wilson's had planned to bring back a downtown Bloomington race, but his postponed that effort year though cyclists can escape to the road, the pandemic still effects, everyone spirits, Karen Davis says she tries to offer a certain amount of emotional support. She says she spent time on the store. Social media accounts to keep people's spirits up I'm Charlie shlenker. covid nineteen orders have changed how state agencies ensure the safety of the roads, and who travels on them as chase, cavenaugh explains. On a state level traffic is down throughout the board, but that doesn't mean state agencies aren't active. Paul Walpole is a spokesman for the Illinois. Department of Transportation. He says. Workers are still engaged in maintenance. Work the transportation. It was deemed and essential service and the roads. We are maintaining the roads. Bridges, making sure they're still in good shape, wobble, says this work. Particularly construction is on schedule, but he notes some adjustments have been made the workers who are out and about they. Wash their hands frequently. When you can very, if you to have a meeting of the meeting, they do it. You know social distancing or conference. Call if they have to. You know just doing what they're supposed to do. Aside from the roads themselves. Continues to maintain rest areas along highways and interstates wobble says these facilities are particularly important for truck drivers, transporting supplies whether food and or medical supplies they needed a place to stop and rest, and making sure the rest areas are cleaned and disinfected frequently. Some state agencies have scaled back their operations the Illinois. Tollway has switched to all electronic toll collection and shut down its customer service sectors at its. Illinois state police remain on duty, but a statement notes that officers have shifted to a reactive patrol posture specifically they will focus on calls for assistance, securing state, medical facilities and critical shipments and helping with traffic flow at through testing facilities wobble, says that change in focus might tempt some drivers to break the rules. He strongly advised against this. You know infrequently. We were saying. Hey, please if you're out and about IF If you have to go out. Please slow down. Obey the speed limit in, and absolutely be extra careful as always near any construction zones, and as always he says avoid distraction particularly in those zones. We WanNa make sure that all of the workers are protected and safe, and so they can do their job, you know they have families to their loved ones out there as well while trucks and larger vehicles have a presence. Presence on state and national routes, many local roads are being used for deliveries. Michael oswalt is a law professor at Northern Illinois University Oswalt says there's been a shift in the GIG. Economies focus from humans to goods, so rideshare work has largely bottomed out many inns in home services companies like task rabbit have as well, but the delivery jobs are really in great demand Oswalt, says Uber and lift. Drivers have transitioned to more. More a product based services such as Uber, eats Grub, hub and instant cart. Companies in response are hiring additional delivery drivers instant itself plans to add fifty thousand new employees, and both Walmart and Amazon are hiring more workers, and he says those service workers have become particularly important during the pandemic, so our groceries are delivered. Her diapers are packed and shipped our weekend. Restaurant meals dropped off by workers for putting their own health. On the line for the good of the public, both dot an ISP aim to ensure state roadways stay orderly during the COVID, nineteen pandemic, but ultimately safety on highway or neighborhood street comes down to the person behind the wheel I'm Jay sky. It's Jason Bonetti for Ready Dot Illinois Dot Gov with the message about emergency planning. For Thousands of Illinois citizens with functional needs. Every one of US needs a disaster plan for ourselves, our families, even our pets, but the plan and the emergency disaster kit a lot different for those with functional needs at ready dot. Illinois Dot Gov. you'll find tips for designing an emergency disaster plan and building an actual emergency disaster kit whether you or someone you know is. Is Affected by cognitive mobility or visual disabilities has mental health or substance abuse issues is death, and or has substantial hearing loss. Ready Dot Illinois Dot Gov has the answers. There's even guidance for those who rely on life, support systems, and for persons who use service animals and yes, ready Dot Illinois. Dot. Gov has great tips for seniors to even tips for pet owners. If you or someone you know has functional needs, or for that matter, you have yet to make your own disaster planner. Kit Visit Ready Dot Illinois Dot Gov that's ready Dot Illinois Dot Gov sponsored by the Illinois Emergency Management agents started as medicine to relieve the pain. The edge off stress to just get through the day. I realized. I can't stop. I can't stop. I can't stop. Can't stop. We can help call one eight, three, three to find help find ways to help you or the ones you love. Break the cycle of opioid use disorder, one, eight, three, three to find help sponsored by I D Ph back in March governor Jay. Pritzker issued an executive order, requiring insurance companies to cover telemedicine visits Illinois had not previously required coverage for them routine medical needs. Don't stop during a pandemic. So how are doctors handling them Steph whiteside reports. Chronic illness and routine emergencies don't vanish just because there is a public health crisis in order to meet the needs of patients while avoiding exposure to corona virus, many doctors are shifting routine visits to tell Madison phone or video appointments can be useful for things like monitoring medication or tracking vital signs for people with chronic health issues. Dr Paul. Petersen President of the Illinois. State Medical Society says this change is a welcome one for many. Well in Illinois. been a state that has required insurance companies to pay for visits and for telemedicine now with governors executive order, it is being paid for and so. It has taken off and I. Think has really a significant. Benefit for lots of folks. Peterson also reminds people that the availability telemedicine means people don't need to avoid contacting their doctor if they feel even now. There are a variety of ways to call into offices and. Offices your primary care. Physician offices will have some sort of screening process that says Oh, by the way you know I I got a little sore throat and I've got a You know a little bit of a temperature. and I'm a little sick to my stomach. Peterson says he's hopeful. This use of telemedicine will continue even after the pandemic ends. I'm Steph whiteside after someone test positive for Covid. Nineteen Search Begins Public Health nurses get to work finding out who they may have spread the disease to or where they may have caught the infection Mary Hansen has more on contact tracing in Illinois. Heather cake says her job is like trying to solve a big puzzle. Sometimes I wake up in. In the middle of the night and I'll be like. Oh, that wasn't the case after all Katie is an infectious disease nurse with a in County Department of Public Health, her job is piecing together the spread of covid nineteen in an effort to slow it down because you put the dates and the Times ending you start thinking about who had wished symptoms, when and sometimes the person that you thought was the original positive. Probably wasn't. She? Spends her days on the phone. Talking with people infected with a disease and their close family and friends trying to make sure they don't leave their houses and give it to more people and for K. Dyke, it can get frustrating. It seems like half the people I've talked to this week. Had Easter dinner with their family like with grandma and GRANDPA and cousins people who have been in close contact with someone with a positive case need to be quarantined for two weeks. They don't understand that means no, you don't see family as bad as it is hard as it is and sad. You know you need to face up as policy? Makers argue over when to start easing restrictions. The work of contact razors is a crucial part of that discussion. There's a risk of resurgence of the disease pretty much anywhere. We may see cycles or waves of infection, Josh Michel is an infectious disease, epidemiologist and associate director for Global Health Policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation. If you have contact racing testing in place, then you can prevent major hills in in the epidemic curve by keeping a lid on community transmission before it gets out of hand, but there are a few challenges a robust contact tracing system I michaux says. Says goes hand in hand with widespread testing, which is not yet happening in Illinois, even if you have good contact tracing if you've not identified a good portion of the actual cases that are out there, you're only going to make a small dent in that epidemic curve, widespread testing would include people with mild symptoms or no symptoms at all, but Illinois still has limited swabs and lab. Capacity and tests are prioritized for the elderly, those with underlying conditions and healthcare or other frontline workers, and there's another problem. The National Association representing Health Departments says only about twenty. Two hundred people are doing contact tracy now across the country. Is a quite limited number when you match it up against the scale of efforts that need to be done. One study suggests Illinois alone needs nearly four thousand people on the job. Saying County has five contact tracers on staff. After it hired back retired nurses and moved some seasonal workers to full-time gala. Chief of infectious diseases with the county, says despite limited testing. They're doing what they can. We're putting our resources into the cases that we know and there is some good news. havener says before the stay at home order nurses might have to call fifteen people connected to one positive case, most of them are four or five people, so the distancing has made a huge huge dent. Fewer contacts means the less chance. Chance for the disease to spread Governor Jay Pritzker has said tracking will be a key strategy to easing restrictions and suggested Illinois could follow the lead of Massachusetts, hiring thousands of workers. The Illinois Department Public Health did not respond to NPR Illinois's questions about how many tracers are employed now how many more would be needed? And what? The plan is to scale up I'm Mary. Hansen early to bed early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise, and all was Benjamin Franklin wise, so you actually think electric, they can pass through metal. Frankly go flat tight that. There are my keys besides the five vocals ben invented the Franklin Stove. passed. On from the foundation for a better life. Dot Com brembos has been stopping champions on the track as well as drivers like you and me on the street for over fifty years whether it's UV, coated brake discs, low dust, premium, ceramic brake pads or high temperature brake fluid brembos store USA. Dot Com is the place to go to buy genuine limbo. Equivalent replacement brake components go to brembos store USA. Dot to help. Help you achieve that sixty zero breaking performance you deserve and expect from Brim Bio. Rambault the choice of champions and consumers for over fifty years back in March Governor Jay, pritzker issued an executive order requiring insurance companies to cover telemedicine visits. Illinois had not previously required coverage for them. Routine medical needs don't stop during a pandemic. So how are doctors handling them Steph whiteside reports? Chronic illness and routine emergencies don't vanish just because there's a public health crisis in order to meet the needs of patients while avoiding exposure to corona virus, many doctors are shifting routine visits to telemedicine phone or video appointments can be useful for things like monitoring medication or tracking vital signs for people with chronic health issues. Dr Paul Petersen President of the Illinois State Medical Society says. This change is a welcome one for many. Well in Illinois we've not been a state that has required insurance companies to pay for Tele visits and for telemedicine. With the governors executive order. It is being paid for and so. It has taken off and I. Think has really and a significant benefit for lots of folks. Peterson also reminds people that the availability of telemedicine means people don't need to avoid contacting their doctor if they feel ill even now. There are a variety of ways to hall into offices and many offices. Your primary care physician offices will have some sort of screening process that says Oh, by the way you know. I got a little sore throat and I've got a You know a little bit of a temperature and I'm a little sick to my stomach. What should I do? Peterson says he's hopeful. This use of telemedicine will continue even after the pandemic ends. I'm Steph whiteside after someone test positive for Covid nineteen, a search begins public health nurses get to work finding out who they may have spread the disease to or where they may have caught the infection Mary Hansen has more on contact tracing in Illinois Heather. Cake says her job is like trying to solve a big puzzle. Sometimes I wake. Wake up in the middle of the night and I'll be like. Oh, that wasn't the case after all cake is an infectious disease nurse with Sangam County Department of public, health job is piecing together the spread of covid nineteen in an effort to slow it down because you put the dates and the Times ending you start thinking about who had wished symptoms win, and sometimes the person that you thought was the original positive. Probably, wasn't she? Spends her days on the phone. Talking with people infected with a disease and their close family and friends trying to make sure they don't leave their houses and give it to more people and for Kate I it can get frustrating. It seems like half the people I've talked to this week. Had Easter dinner with their family? Like with grandma and GRANDPA and cousins, people who have been in close contact with someone with positive case need to be quarantined for two weeks. They don't understand that means no. See family as bad as it is hard as it is and sad, you know you need to face time as policymakers, makers argue over when to start easing restrictions. The work of contactors is a crucial part of that discussion. There's risk resurgence of the disease pretty much anywhere. We may see cycles or waves of infection, Josh Michel is an infectious disease, epidemiologist and associate director for Global Health Policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation. If you have contact tracing testing in place, then you can prevent Major Hills in in the epidemic curve by keeping a lid on community transmission before it gets out of hand, but there are few challenges to a robust contact. Contact, tracing system I Michaux, says tracing goes hand in hand with widespread testing, which is not yet happening in Illinois. Even if you have good contact tracing if you've not identified a good portion of the actual cases that are out there, you're only going to make a small dent in that epidemic curve, widespread testing would include people with mild symptoms or no symptoms at all, but Illinois still has limited swabs and lab. Capacity and tests are prioritized for the elderly, those with underlying conditions and healthcare or other frontline workers, and there's another problem. The National Association representing health. Departments says only about twenty. Two hundred people are doing contact. See now across the country. Is a quite limited number. When you match it up against the scale of that need to be done, one study suggests Illinois alone needs nearly four thousand people on the job. Saying County has five contact tracers on staff. After it hired back retired nurses and moved some seasonal workers to full-time gala. HAVENER chief of infectious diseases with the county says despite limited testing. They're doing what they can. We're putting our resources into the cases that we know and there is some good news. havener says before the stay at home order nurses might have to call. Call fifteen people connected to one positive case, most of them are four or five people, so the distancing has made a huge huge dent. Fewer contacts means the less chance for the disease to spread Governor Jay. Pritzker has said tracking will be a key strategy to easing restrictions and suggested Illinois could follow the lead of Massachusetts hiring thousands of workers. The Illinois Department of Public Health did not respond to NPR. Illinois's questions about how many tracers are employed now how many more would be needed? And what the plan is to scale up I'm Mary Hinson. Wraps up statewide for this week. Thanks for joining us and be with us. Next time we'll have more reports in conversations from in and around Illinois. If you missed any of this episode, you can find it and pass shows at statewide show dot com. Our email is there even drop us a line? Let us know you're tuned in. I'm Shawn Crawford, statewide is a production of NPR Illinois with help from other Illinois public radio stations. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by. Follow us on Facebook, twitter and INSTAGRAM's. This is the liberty. Beat your daily source for news and activists updates produced in partnership with the S, LS, network, and listeners like you. Online at SNL S NETWORK DOT COM I make Murrow with your latest edition at the Liberty beat. Golden starting at one thousand seven hundred twenty dollars Sauber at fifteen dollars and forty cents and Bitcoin is trading around thousand eight hundred eighty dollars. Today's gold silver in bitcoin prices are brought to you by brave botanical high-quality crate him and CBD, at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Ray Botanical is activists known and mission driven. The liberty and brava tentacles believe so strongly in the power of freedom. We're giving it away for free. Just go to liberty beat DOT news slash recreate. This is the liberty beat at SNL. West network DOT COM. In the news as Covid, nineteen rips through the United States a record twenty six point, five million Americans have filed for jobless benefits since mid-march alone numbers not seen since the height of the Great Depression. Mid Press news reports. Tens of millions have been laid off furloughed or seeing business dry up in a matter of weeks. The unemployment figures are actually a significant underestimate of the problem according to a new study by the nonpartisan DC. Thank Tank Economic Policy Institute Their Survey over twenty four thousand Americans found that for every ten people who successfully filed for unemployment benefits in the last four weeks three to four additional people attempted to apply, but were unable to navigate the system to make claim. To additional people do not even try because of the complicated application, process s adding the numbers to the millions of unemployed Americans makes the likely total. Top, forty million people all of that from a forty year low in February. Ever wonder where we all the news to report right here on the Liberty beat visit. SNL S DOT news to get the world. Most censored media published all in one place save yourself from endless time spent searching for reliable tentative media. SNL S news makes a quick and easy. No APPS NO CLICK. Bait Jeff. Role Headlines Twenty four hours a day. Visit SNL DOT. And get informed today without the corporate span. Your News now continues the New York State education. Department has blocked schools from using state funding mechanism to purchase facial recognition systems. According to the New York Civil, Liberties Union the Lockport City, school district purchased a facial recognition system, using state funds allocated through the Smart Schools Bond Act. The program set aside two billion dollars to improve learning an opportunity for students throughout New York, activists post reports in an unannounced move. The Education Department changed SBA application requirements specifically barring funds for the purchase of facial recognition technology. The New York, education. Department website now stipulates quote. The Review Board is not currently approving plans that include facial recognition, technology, or other similar self, learning analytic software and quote. In an email deputy director education policy center New York Civil Liberties Union Stephanie Coil called the change huge. Breaking Defense a digital magazine that covers military issues reports that Israel may ask for its US aid early possibly lump sum that could be as high as seven point six billion dollars mint press news reports that would work out almost twenty one million dollars per day from American taxpayers, even though the US approaching a four trillion dollar deficit, the largest in the world and Israel typically. Typically have a lower unemployment rate than the United States. The report is by breaking Defense Israel, corresponded area Agasi, and Israeli citizen who served in the Israeli military and as close to the Israeli security establishment it goes. These articles states that because of the coronavirus pandemic quote, Israel's Ministry of Defense and high command have hammered out an emergency plan for an appeal to Washington quote. US Aid Israel is normally dispersed in October. In a lump sum that is deposited to an interest bearing Israeli account in a new. York, that or`Sir Bank. 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Four hundred eighty five horsepower dodge challenger held cat, red eye with up to seven hundred ninety seven horsepower and seven hundred seven pound feet of Torque, and the powerful seven-passenger Dodge Durango hurry in for great deals now at dodge performance days, words Electric Vehicle Segment Dodge is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. LLC cancer is the number one cause of death by disease for children in the US today since the Austin, hatcher foundations birth in two thousand six. It has grown to provide unique programs to help the children and families affected by pediatric cancer. Support begins the time of diagnosis and continues throughout survivorship at no cost to families lives touched by the foundation continued to rise each day, but we need your help Doni volunteer or partner with the Austin Foundation. Learn how you can get involved. Visit Hatcher Foundation Dot Org for more information. From Springfield, this is State Week a program of analysis and commentary on the events that made news this past week. In Illinois state, government and politics. I know that we all have a passionate desire to return to the sense of normalcy that we felt before the world knew of covid nineteen. Here's the truth. I don't like it any more than you do. Until we have a vaccine or an effective treatment for enough widespread immunity, that new cases failed to materialize the option of returning to normalcy. Doesn't exist. That means we have to figure out how to live with covert nineteen until it can be bank wished. And to do so in a way that best supports our residents health and our healthcare systems and save the most lives. This plan does not work now as we look to flat the curve, we're looking at a decidedly uncertain future. Without a smart well thought out plan to reopen. There may not be anything left to reopen. That's the House Republican. Leader Jim Durkin and before that governor Gb Pritzker the governor came out with a plan this week to reopen Illinois albeit slowly. Not everyone is applauding, though discuss that and more coming up on state week I'm Shawn. Crawford in Springfield our panel, practicing social distancing today from only of Charlie Wheeler. He's an emeritus professor and former director of Public Affairs Reporting Program at the University of Illinois Springfield. He's also a longtime statehouse reporter in observer. Also joining us is the NPR. Illinois reporter Slam Dunk Law in rejoining us a familiar voice to longtime state week listeners the former host of the program. House who has back to help out with some coverage during the pandemic can bill. It's good to have you back. And it's been a few years since I've been on our guest this week is Rebecca Ends El she covers government and politics for the Capital News Illinois Rebecca. It's always great to hear from you as well. Thanks for being with us. Thank you for having me and Rebecca going to go to you first. The governor announced this plan and I guess to try to sum it up for people. There are five levels five phases at the governor laid out here. Can you explain for those who haven't seen at where we are now where we could be headed next? Yes so so we're in. The governor's second phase called flattening. non-essential retail stores or sort of reopened, but for pick up or delivery almost wear face coverings. When we're outside we can start you know going to golf courses voting. If we wanted to when when the virus was particularly horrible, we were in the first phasers, rapid spread going forward. The next phase is called recovery. which will allow for offices shops to fully reopen barbershop salons with capacity to limitations and such and gatherings of ten people are fewer are going to be allowed more face coverings there are. Certain criteria to be met to go through each phase, though and so state officials are sort of looking at where each of the four regions in the state are The status are broken up into four regions sort of by the hospital. Regions that I D ph uses. And that's been kind of controversial. As well because some people think that the regions may be too big for you know for certain parts where they might be more rural areas where they're not seeing very many cases at all in their lumped in with what could be considered a hotspot. Yemen's definitely Sean. In fact if you even look at. Some of the. So far. The hospitalization data and the case growth data in these regions. You see that there's a big disparity between the northeastern Illinois region, one of the four which include Chicago, and the collar counties and the case growth rates in the other three regions. North Central Illinois Central Illinois and then southern Illinois. Y-, just looking at that data the case growth rate in the last three that I mentioned is somewhere around seven percent right now and in Chicago. It's over twenty eighth somewhere in the twenty one twenty two range, depending on what day you look, the governor's criteria and the Department of public health criteria has been the way that we move from one phase of this to the next. is largely looking at keeping that Shall we say that that growth rate that infection rate under twenty percent The surge capacity has to be in hospitals that is for people who might need to come to the hospital with Kobe nineteen needs to be at at least fourteen percent, and so far most of the state is meeting those metrics, and that's where some of the criticism has come in to play so far from some of these downstate Republicans. I'm so. It remains to be seen whether or not that will continue on through the month if it does. The governor is indicated the earliest opening date. That is the earliest date that we can move from where we are in face to face. Three would be end of the month somewhere in May twenty ninth. And then another month after that we can move to the next phase as long as things continue on, but as the governor has mentioned. This is a fluid plan. It could change depending on whether or not there is in fact, a spike in cases and bill this the governor, making this decision to a again ramp things up very slowly here, did he give any indication beyond the the medical aspect here? Did he I'm sure he heard some of this criticism. What did he say about that? Well initially, you know. He said and he was. Quick to point out names of Republicans in the announced. That, he's trying to take the concerns of those downstate Republicans especially in to consideration criticism. It was expected. You always get criticism of a plan from the minority party. That's not specifically or necessarily why Republicans are criticizing this, but the Republicans are also downstairs where there are fewer cases where it looks like. They'll be able to advance to the next stage and have barbershops and Harris Salons Open. Round may twenty ninth, but They still have to find fault with a plan. That's just the way the system system works in Illinois and. They're they're picking out details Peoria does being up. In plan with Rockford for instance but. It, so those are kind of some of the main concerns, Republicans, trying to pay homage to those who are unhappy with the closure yet. They have tacitly so. This, surely a lot of these Republicans and others downstate. I guess you would say you. Know Central Southern Illinois. Lot of them have been calling for a regional idea to reopen. The Governor says we could see you know we could see southern Illinois open earlier than other parts of the state or some some other region based on this data. Do you think it's a wise move away that the governor is roll this out? I think it is I think the notion that We should. Try to limit the geographic areas. As we consider the differences. In allowing things to open, make sense. And, I would also point out that. The people who argue well. It's a Chicago problem as I've said before I think that they're not really looking at the full picture. in the last few days recent weeks. There have been any number of reports about nursing home problems. Of infection and death around the state, infections manufacturing plants infections that meat processing plants which are mostly in rural areas, the the industrial stuff. And the idea that what we can shut off the nursing home. That it really very realistic in my mind, because you have staff coming in and out unless you keep the staff locked up twenty four seven, you're going to have contact with the outside world, the same thing with people who bring in groceries cleaning supplies all the other materials. And so. You can't really. Ignore. The possibility of being spread. I think the notion of looking at the region's make sense and people are going to argue that well I live in Kendall County. Why should I be part of the same region in Chicago? Well because the people in Kendall County. there are some of them actually have to go into county. Who are central workers? So it's, it's not that easy to isolate. I don't think. One Community from another with this kind of thing. And I also suspect that one of the reasons. The governor has taken a pretty conservative approach to reopen is he's GonNa, wait and see what happens in some of the other states, who in a sense, jump the gun, even opening up more quickly than the than the federal guidelines would allow to see what happens there. You know two weeks from today. What is going to look like in Texas for example? SAMBA. We mentioned that this piece three we might move into that could be next for many parts of the state that would include some retail reopening also some office spaces the hair salons, but when we look at one of the harder hit, parts of the economy the hospitality industry things like restaurants bars that that sort of thing. You're not necessarily looking that. They're going to be able to open that quickly, right? No it because that segment of the economy doesn't get to reopen. Until phase four, so if we're in face to now, the next move is to three in that will be. Of all things go well in some regions. That could be at the end of this month. And then we would be able to move from three to four in most places. Next month. The. Tribune had a great roundup on this. A number they spoke to a number of Chicago restaurant tours. They spoke to Sam Toya, who's president of the Restaurant Association? And when this whole thing began. Roughly mid-march. Restaurants and bars were getting ready to be. Closed up for several weeks into have essentially no income. The state in those early days offered them. The same help. They're offering a lot of different segments of the economy. A low interest loans the paycheck protection program from the federal government is another one that while that funding has dried up in some instances. They have been able to bring back back. There of course the unprecedent number of people that are on unemployment right now. A large number of them are coming from the service industry, restaurants and bars included so. That was then you know. They were looking at being closed for several weeks. And now that the month of April have gone by maze, going to go by almost assuredly without any of these places being open to sit down service in bars, being the same thing If. They're not able to open till next month. The president of the Lettuce Entertain You restaurant chambers, very popular chain of in Chicago said. The frank fact of the matter is is that some restaurants may simply not survive, and it's not a matter of whether or not. They're getting state or federal help. Some might not survive. I think an important. I want to say caveat, but an important additional piece of information for people to know is that in many places? Restaurants are open, but they're open for takeout. Door Nash and others are serving many people even right here in the Springfield area with. You know chain restaurants as well as local restaurants. You can go and get curbside order. You can order on your phone or on your tablet or on your computer and soon food will arrive to you so. Segments portions of the restaurant economy are open, but you know you lose something when. When you aren't able to go and gather and have these larger gatherings at a restaurant, and there are many restaurants that make their bread and butter on that so. They'RE SHAPING UP TO BE A. Likely a difficult next couple of weeks for them, and it remains to be seen who will be able to survive this rebecca? The governor has seemed to be walking a fine line by trying to show their some positive movement in the numbers day when he gives us daily briefing He's talked about that, but at the same time he's really tried to lower expectations going into the summer things like. Like you know the big events this week talked about the Illinois State, fair. Both in Springfield, Andrew Coyne seeing those You know highly unlikely. Those are going to be able to happen. Of course we've seen music festivals. We've seen pro sports have to be postponed right now. I. It seems as you know He. He's trying as I said before. He's trying to walk that fine line, isn't he? Yeah he has he has from the beginning, really been very hesitant to give people false hope and he's continuing that now He had also mentioned in his briefing. Thursday that you know. He knows that sports are important to people's psyche so he. He's aware that these things are important. But, but he seems to really be relying upon data. He said you know the Pro Sports Leagues are going to have to submit some sort of plan to figure out how to hold gaming events. Fans probably won't be allowed there he said you know. People should go ahead and cancel any large summer. Events is probably won't be able to happen and he's. He's says he's reticent to do so, but it's important for Illinois to realize that this is sort of our normal, and we won't go back to like the pre cova days anytime soon. As, Rebecca mentioned there she was talking about A. The pro sports and things we haven't really talked about the fifth here the ultimate achievement. In his plan when you can open up a large crowds and stadiums and That is if there is a vaccine or some kind of real treatment. For Cove it and both those things seem far off which could mean quite a while in time before any stadium, events or concerts? Large large gatherings really take place. You're listening to stay week. I'm Shawn, Crawford. Our panel includes Charlie Slam Dunk Law, Bill wheelhouse and Rebecca Enzo. She's a statehouse reporter with Capital News Illinois. Bill let me go back to something. You just said you. You talked about this. the level five, which the governor had mentioned What I've heard from people who have been critical of the governor. They've been seeing a lot of the things they've been complaining about. Is that at the beginning governor? pritzker talked about flattening the curve. Curve, and by all estimations were starting to see at least getting closer to that happening but a lot of people feel now. He's moving the goal line that he is moving it back. saying that you know we're now going to have to to get back to real normalcy. We're going to have to see either a vaccine for the coronavirus, or we're going to have to see much better treatment, so a lot of people feel as though know. They're not getting a clear picture and guidance from the governor's office. Well I. Think this is probably a more clear picture. The Ritz Guidance for anybody. I'm uncertain, but. You know now the governor is out with a rule book where he put a true goal line on the field so But he's always said it's going to be a long time and. For those restaurants that Sam dunk law mention really they. Will probably struggle all the way until this is fully open Charlie. Your thoughts on that. Do you think the governor has Is it right to criticize the governor for you know sort of pushing off the the full reopening of the economy in Illinois as long as he's talked about. I think there's a couple of things at work here one is when the governor issued his first order. A lot was unknown. There were a lot of. We're going into uncharted territory. Now that we've had some time to see how this is playing out what the impact is! What's happening? And spills, so he's. He's laid out a very specific plan. It's I. Think it's like a ten page. Treatise. And it says here are the things that have to happen in terms of the medical conditions. Here are the things that can happen. Economically was going to be allowed. And, so I think it's taking what was originally sort of A. Flat out. Broad generalization. And putting into details. And another thing that occurs to me based on the polling that's been reported. Let's say that the state does say okay Memorial Day. We can all go to the restaurants I'm thinking. What was the reaction of people? Be Like in my case I'm somebody who? Usually? Well back in the day. I would eat out almost every day. I'm not sure one. Oh, feel safe going into a restaurant again, but my guess is. It's not going to be any time soon. Let me turn to something else. We discussed last week on this program and see him and Rebecca I'll turn to you on this Both of you've been following it. There have been some lawsuits out there both by lawmakers when the federal lawsuit filed by a Church can one of you give an update on where we think those stand at this point. Yes Oh. That church lawsuit that you mentioned It's been appealed to the seventh circuit. That's up up North we'll see what happens with that representative Darren, Bailey, who's Republican from Zena his lawsuit. is also he had gotten a win. A judge agreed with him and gave him the permission to be lifted from the state home. Order his attorney Sort of gave that up and the case is back in Clay County. Nothing's been filed yet, but his attorney Thomas Divorce said that he's going to file an amended complaint, which means he's going to add some things to his argument I am unsure where representative Cabello lawsuit stands. Yeah I. Don't know if it's come to court. Yeah, the and I should mention these are all lawsuits have been filed against the governor's stay at home order. So again. We're watching those as we go along, but let me let me now. Turn to some other topics that we've been wanting to fit into the show here for the last few minutes, but see him go to you. First Nursing Homes Democrats actually had a little bit of criticism over hell, the governor's Office how the Illinois Department of Public. Health has been dealing with nursing homes. Well, what did they have to say? So a group of Senate Democrats. I spoke with Senator Laura Fine Glenview. Had authored a letter to the. State Department of Public Health, asking for a little more information about personal protective equipment shipments to nursing homes in the background on some of that, of course, as many of our listeners have been following the news, nursing homes across the country, and particularly here in Illinois have experienced. you know a hotspot of cases there outbreaks there have been particularly egregious. Largely because you have a very vulnerable population in close proximity, relatively speaking to one another you know, many of us can socially distance those in nursing homes really can't. Without? Some pretty strict protocols and changes coming forward so of course, the staff that are taking care of them. Are Needing personal protective equipment like masks and gloves. Hand sanitizer things like that to make sure that they are safe is they're caring for these residents? Especially, if a resident or two or maybe even ten have the new corona virus the problem is is that a lot of these senators have gotten calls from nursing homes in their district. Saying you know, we ordered a certain amount of P.. p. e. from our suppliers and we haven't gotten it. Is there anything that you can do? Is there anything that you can? Point to in this at the State Department of Public Health to say you know where the PCP coming from, and and WHO's getting it and I think the reason they did. That was because the governor has. Offered you know pretty regularly an update on the amount of PP. That is coming into the state. He usually rattled off just about every week. A large list of this many million gloves this many million masks The senators are asking the department public health for as much as they know. To provide more detailed information about where all those millions of items are going to. Particularly because the nursing homes are the ones that are among those who need it most. I did reach out to the State Department of Health. They have not returned my request for comment just yet. But they have been in receipt of that letter at the same time that all this has been going on Sean. June just this last week. The A union representing nurses and staff at nursing homes just agreed to a tentative two year collective bargaining agreement with nursing home management. They had planned to strike. Today if that had not been accomplished. What ended up. Being agreed to was among other things the wages would be at fifteen dollars per hour. Minimum the would receive hazard, pay and other accommodations during the covid nineteen crisis. And nursing homes agreed to not require any staff to work. If there is not an adequate amount of P, so there will be no mass sharing no glove sharing at least as far as the agreement is concerned, and the president of this union has confirmed with reporters that that. Agreement will be ratified next week, so there's nothing that expected to change. Nurses and staff will not be striking over the issue are there was another lawsuit to talk about this week? And there was a ruling on it and former governor Pat Quinn's name back in the. News Rebecca Philipson on that. Yes, so US, District Court. Judge Rebecca Palmer which your listeners May. Remember from the suit that the Libertarian and green parties filed against the State she ruled Thursday that the that the Committee for Illinois Democracy Amendment was wrong, so they claim that restrictions implemented to combat. The coronavirus made it impossible to gather the necessary signatures for them to place a constitutional amendment on November election ballot. That amendment. Would obligate the General Assembly to take roll-call votes on bills that propose stronger ethical standards for Illinois ficials. So their attorneys, which as you mentioned, include former governor Pat Quinn have said that they're seriously considering an appeal on that. Bill also wanted to mention something you reported on this week. Graduation ceremonies, that's a big rite of passage for a lot of seniors, high school seniors in the states, and those who have been in limbo, because people didn't know how they were going to actually hold a ceremony, deliver these diplomas, but finally there seems to be against some guidance this time from the Illinois state, board of Education. And some of that came because A lot of people across the state had plan different types of ceremonies, but involve some type of social distancing kind of an alternative graduation and the State Board. Of Education I e the governor's office, said no to those, and there must have been enough out crying complaints directly to the State Board of Education and the governor's office that a week ago last Saturday that they came out with guidance. One of those they allow drive through graduations, involves automobiles and. Different presentations, but everybody's staying in a car and part of that came out because. A, senior high school students did in Taylorville Illinois in Christian County, wrote a letter to the governor, complaining that all these plans that they're districted at had for a month. had been rejected by the governor's office and her letter, and some other complaints helped apparently turned the tide and Taylorville will get to have a graduation ceremony. Later this month where people come up in cars, the student gets out in their cap and gown. Their name gets they go across the stage, and they pick up their diploma place there by a school administrator before that person gets there, so they all have the social distancing, or let's go now to our notes from the Field Shirley. Let's begin with you. Well. Everybody is talking about how the The viruses having such a horrible impact on the Illinois Economy, which fact is true We've had a massive loss, so in terms of the state's income tax and sales tax collections. But in one area, things appear to be still doing well. and. That's marijuana sales which last month April. Totaled more than thirty seven point, two million dollars, which was the highest monthly total sense, the thirty nine million dollars in sales in January, which was the very first month of legalized adults sales. In that came despite the fact that the social distancing guidelines required customers at the state's fifty licensed dispensaries to order online. and to use curbside pickup. So maybe people have found a way to deal with having to stay at home. Sam. Well although you know, none of our listeners can see me through the magic of Radio on. My hair has started to get quite a bit long as well as many other throughout the state, the governor himself in recent weeks as admitted that he's started to look like a hippy without hair salons being open. So. Those are likely going to be reopening in many parts of the state once we move to phase three a lot of those businesses, though we'll be implementing protocols that include taking the clients temperature. They're going to require face masks in. They're going to sort of. Extend out furniture to make sure there's at least six feet of separation between clients. Bill. We are seeing. People driving a lot fewer miles on the roads and The gas stations across the state of. Illinois say they've they've seen a decline in gas purchases by more than half, and how that trickles down is gas tax revenues are way off, and that means fewer road construction projects locally as towns get their road money from the gas tax fund, and because sales dropping off of not only the gasoline, but also Gambling and lottery proceeds. It means that funding for a road building program is also Lagging way behind and. Expectations are that roadbuilding funds could be down at least fifteen percent for the coming year and Rebecca. So mine is short, but very sweet for some of us. Friday marks the sixty first daily Cova update held by government, Pritzker and Chicago an se said on Thursday to the delight of many reporters and probably others to This is going to be the first weekend that he's not going to hold his briefings all right well. That's our time for this edition of State Week. Our panel included Shirley Wheeler. Slam, Dunk, law, Bill, wheelhouse, and Rebecca and Zell with capital news eleanor. You can get a podcast of our show. It's available at NPR, Illinois Dot Org, or through the NPR one APP production assistance where the program was provided by Bob Meyer I'm Shawn Crawford? You've been listening to State Week a program of commentary and Analysis Convent's and Illinois State, politics and government. State Week is produced in the state capital by public radio station. NPR, Illinois. This is. Illinois public rate indeed knows finding the right hire takes time away from Your Business Hiring unqualified data engineer felt like a second job more job. Seekers use indeed than any other sites, so there's no better place to find someone with the skills you're looking for. I needed someone with a masters in computer, science and database experience, plus indeed screener questions. Help you find your shortlist fast now I'm back to having just one job. 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Their survey of over twenty four thousand Americans found that for every ten people who successfully filed for unemployment benefits last four weeks three to four additional people attempted to apply, but were unable to navigate the system to make a claim. To additional people do not even try because of the complicated application process, adding the numbers to the millions of unemployed. Americans makes the likely total of unemployed top forty million people. Of that forty year low in February. Wonder where we find all the news to report right here in the Liberty beat visit. SNL S DOT news to get. The world's most censored media published in one place save yourself from and less time spent searching for reliable tentative media. SNL S news makes a quick easy. No APPS NO CLICK BAIT. Just roll headlines. Twenty four hours a day. Visit S dot. And get informed today without the corporate media spend. Your News now continues the New York State Education Department has blocked schools from using state funding mechanism to purchase facial recognition systems. According to the New York Civil Liberties Union the Lockport, City School district purchased a facial recognition system using state funds allocated through the Smart Schools Bond Act the program set aside two billion dollars to improve learning an opportunity for students throughout New York activists post reports in an unannounced move. The Education Department changed SBA application. Specifically barring funds for the purchase, a facial recognition technology. The New York. Education Department website now stipulates quote. The Review Board is not currently approving plans that include facial recognition, technology, or other similar self, learning analytic software and quote. In an email deputy director education policy center New York civil. Liberties, union, Stephanie. Coil called the change huge. Breaking Defense a digital magazine that covers military issues reports that Israel may ask for its US aid early possibly lump sum that could be as high as seven point six billion dollars. Mint. Press news reports that would work out almost twenty one million dollars per day from American taxpayers, even though the US approaching four trillion dollar deficit, the largest in the world and Israel typically have lower unemployment rate than the United States. The report is by Breaking Defense Israel correspondent. AIRY Agasi an Israeli citizen who served in the Israeli military and as close to the Israeli security establishment. It goes. These articles states that because of the coronavirus pandemic quote, Israel's Ministry of Defense and high command have hammered out an emergency plan for an appeal to Washington and won't. US Aid Israel is normally dispersed in October in a lump sum that is deposited to an interest bearing Israeli. In New York that or`Sir Bank. Support for the liberty is brought to you by the homestead. You Room. The homestead guru is an educational website offering tips, tools, News, stories and commentary on everything, Home Setting. Glued Green homes gardening animal husbandry you yourself Home Remedies Alternative Energy Survival Ism on schooling and more. Those, details for found online at the homestead docu through. This is the liberty powered by the SNL S network had s network Dot Com? I'm mick. Mira reporting for the liberty beam, reminding spread liberty with a smile. Have, you ever tried to plan a vacation and the hotel cost airfare and pet center all add up to one big. Never mind well. It's time to embrace. The adventure are being instead gorving dot. com is your one stop shop for all things. RV camping browse the different types of RV's find a rental agent or dealer near you and compare the cost explore more than. Than Sixty thousand RV parks and camp nationwide and even plan your been used for the trip. Find out what you've been missing at Gorving DOT com. That's go are being DOT COM, everybody. It's like Saturday night I'm just trying to watch some hockey and we just got any strike on our other channel, and if you don't know we do. Another channel called enter, cast. And? Few months ago, I did an interview with Richard Gauge of architects and engineers for nine eleven truth. Where we talked about nine eleven truth, and basically just physics, and it was just taken down and removed from Youtube because of hate speech. So I guess, Physics is now speech. But I think what they really mean is they hate it? When we talk about the truth about the cabal, and what really happened on nine eleven? So in any case I'd already recorded an interview which I. Think is really important to get out there. It's with Leila. WHO's the Shaman and anarchy POCO and I wanted to get this out before anarchy. POCO, which is coming up this week? And our channel enter cast has strike which means. We can't upload anything for the next week so I'm just GonNa put it here. If. You're just psychedelics. If you're of any sort of issues, addiction I, just saw Jordan Peterson His in major problems, he of course was given a bunch of drugs by drug dealers called doctors which are incredibly dangerous, and you really can't get off the missile part of the pharmaceutical industrial scam. So he couldn't get off them. Of course without trying to kill himself, which is what actually happens with a lot of these things, and so he went back to the drug dealers in socialist Canada and they almost killed them. Not Surprising and so he actually had the fleet or Russia to get some help. But. We actually talk about some of this stuff in this episode. especially Boga how it treats addictions. So if you have any sort of addiction, problems or anything like that. Depression a lot of these psychedelics can really help with that. Normally wouldn't be on the bridge lottery channel, but as I just said we're getting wiped pretty quickly off of Youtube. If we have the old interview with Richard Gage. Architects and engineers and we're going to put down. Below might be on library or bit shoot, and that's a big reason why we're on those platforms, because we don't think we're GONNA be on Youtube much longer looks my other channels getting shut down right now. This will probably soon shut down, but you can't actually see Richard Gage at. The upcoming narco POCO. He's going to be speaking there. We actually have a livestream which you can watch all the speakers you can go to John Due dot com slash twenty twenty livestream. And leave it there so very interesting interview with one of the most interesting shamans top Shamans in Mexico. Mexico this is editor cast. Everybody welcome to enter casts your home for anarchy on the Internet. We're GONNA get psychedelic today. I've got on a I. You can call an old friend of mine. We had very interesting experience when I first met him names Leila. He's actually been doing. He's the Shaman at an of Boko. He's been doing numerous things including Iowa Ska for numerous years. I don't even remember how many years now I'm gonNA. Ask about that. But actually five years yet spin spin crazy and. I actually met Leila for the first time where he's coming in from right now. which in Tebow's lamb in Mexico just right near Mexico City and I actually went there to do Boga, which is crazy. It's the craziest thing I've ever done. I don't know if I could ever do it again. Was that hard? Although I do have some experiences at all I might talk about with. That the reason, I think it was so hard for me. Is because I was really messed up. And I was really I was living in my mind almost completely, and it was really hard to lose control of it for basically two straight days. which is what it was with a bogus. It's absolutely insane, but afterwards. for numerous months because I was depressed beforehand I wasn't depressed anymore. All of a sudden, it was just like this. The switch went off and all of a sudden I noticed how beautiful everything was where I lived and all of a sudden I I was just really good, and it gave me enough time to start working on myself. Even more which I've did have been doing now for years and years now. So in the end like I wouldn't take back during the yoga, but man that was hard, and Leila's got so many amazing stories about stuff like Whatever you WANNA call them. PSYCHEDELICS plant medicine. And he actually has a very interesting background, so I want to get into that as well I know a bit about your background about being struck by lightning. And that sort of thing, so why don't you just introduce yourself to the audience? who who doesn't know you know? A lot of people have gone to anarchy Boca. Do know you, but many don't suggest. Let let people know who you are. Okay, that's kind of a hard thing. Might experience with Shamanism as you said started early because of this lightning that struck me when I was a one year old. And in I will I was born here in this area in Mexico? Where the Shaman? I struck by lightning and this is kind of the House the community. Knows, who is going to be a Sherman? So although I am not born an indigenous. Worth living next to an indigenous community. The indigenous community took me and told me so. I think if I, if I remember correctly, your fear family was killed by lightening that right. You know all the the other people who were around. Stroke died yeah. I were struck by lightning, so both my dad and myself started learning Chaman doing. The. Holding the responsibility for the community here and and doing the the mission and. Fear So that's how it started here with the community Mexico. And, then I began working also there, we'd ready. Radical Community of Wichita community for the ones were more with the ODI. And, then also I went back to Columbia, which is actually where my family originated from. and. There I learned a lot of out. I lost time the Amazon And and the Vogue I've been going a lot to govern. Where so when we met, we were doing able game more like a treatment. And after that I've been going twice a year gone more to learn about guy and be around the community BURP. kind of one of the ranch. I wasn't aware you've been going to Africa to do that. And that's where I understand. A bogus I came from so that's very interesting. You're you're seem to always be on the go? You just came back from Colombia I. Believe and I think he probably came back for an Arca POCO. You're basically going around doing these things all the time. Yes so right now what I'm mostly doing. Taking people to the indigenous communities. So I make a call, them pilgrimage so. because. I think that Well. You know I think we that indigenous communities in mystical communities hold certain tools that can help buzz. Connector directly with some kind of knowledge or fundamental source. So. I'm trying to take people to these communities and organize groups, so we go to Yemen saw, and we go to the desert to govern, and so I'm. I'm kind of all around the time that yet. Are you still there working with Berry? Not Anymore. Thirty yet. Okay. Yeah. I wasn't aware of that that was. Basically his thing that I went to for the gain originally. And he's been anarchy book of time so before. I WanNa ask you a number of things. But before I get into that I just want you to kind of maybe explain to. Your average. Out there. Who doesn't know anything about these things and they've heard this is crazy. What you're using plant medicines and You know like wh. Why why? Why should a person sort of like from the West from the US? You're listening to heartland feed radio. Our live twenty, four, seven at heartland newsfeed dot com. This stream is supported by advertises and contributions by. Follow us on facebook, twitter and instagram. This is the liberty be your daily sort employed Americans makes the likely total of unemployed top forty million people purchase facial recognition systems. According to the New York Civil Liberties Union the lockport city. School district purchased a facial recognition system, using state funds allocated through the Smart Schools Bond Act. The program set aside two billion dollars to improve learning and opportunity for students throughout New York. Activists Post reports in an ounce move. The Education Department changed SBA application requirements, specifically barring funds for the purchase of facial recognition technology. The New York Education Department website now stipulates quote. The Review Board is not currently approving plans that include facial recognition, technology, or other similar self, learning analytics, software and quote. In an email, Debbie director. Education Policy Center New York civil. Liberties Union Stephanie Quayle called the change huge. Breaking, defense a digital magazine that covers military issues reports. That Israel may ask for its US aid early possibly a lump sum that could be as high as seven point six billion dollars, men, press news reports that would work out almost twenty one million dollars per day from American taxpayers, even though the US approaching four trillion dollar deficit, the largest in the world and Israel typically. Typically have a lower unemployment rate than the United States. The report is by Breaking Defense Israel correspondent Ari Agasi, an Israeli citizen who served in the Israeli military, and as close to the Israeli security establishment it goes. These articles states that because of the coronavirus pandemic quote Israel's Ministry of Defense and high command have hammered out an emergency plan for an appeal to Washington and won't. US Aid Israel is normally dispersed in October in a lump sum that is deposited to an interest bearing, Israeli account in New York, that or`Sir Bank. Support, for the liberty is brought to you by the homestead you room. The homestead guru is an educational website offering tips, tools, News, stories and commentary on everything home standing. Glued Green homes gardening and we'll husband to drink you. Would yourself home remedies? Alternative Energy survival is a schooling and more. Those details for found online at the homestead docu room. This is the liberty beat Howard by the S. and LS. Network had as LS NETWORK DOT com. I'm murrow reporting for liberty beam reminding you spread liberty with a smile. Welcome into tomorrow with Dave grave line, the Interactive Radio Network Program with the latest in high tech products and services and the experts who bring them to you. This is into tomorrow. Here's Dave Gray Line. Our twenty fifth year bringing you into tomorrow this for the weekend of Friday June fifth two. Thousand, and twenty. Thank you for tuning into tomorrow. Your Gas X. for tech. If you will, I am Dave grave line just like the announcer dude said here in our. Miami Studios Chris Gate. Why are you careers grave? His I'm excited to Chris boy and And just as excited if not more so in our Miami Control Room on the other side of that piece of glass. If you're driving, don't look at the radio. Trust me. It's a big piece of glass between studio in the control room is Danny G. And she makes her audio radio debut on the show today. Stay tuned. and. Jim, But I didn't even say that I, said your gas X.. Oh so speaking of gas. No see that wouldn't be appropriate. But anyway, where was I? Oh, yeah, Kim working with the show and coconut. Creek Beth out of her home in Naples Irrational in south beach and horatio in New York City where all gathered around to bring you into tomorrow, and to present to you now some Tech News and commentary before we get back to more of your calls Owen guess what's coming. IDEA. Very very soon, something with some cool stuff something with some cool stuff and we are boy. Have we been gathering some cool stuff to share with you? Some really neat things for example. Here's just a little hint a little hint if you will. Cool into tomorrow hot summer giveaway. That's all I'm going to give you. Need all. Pretty much gave it away then, didn't they? Stay tuned, we got a lot of goodies coming up for you at all. You need to do what? Participate on the show that you can say. Colleen win stuff, thank you. Win Stuff. Thank you. He is much cuter saying then you are good. Anyway Little Tech News may have a so excited. Oh, about the NASA, spacex launch because as we were doing last week show, it hadn't happened yet. As as it was weather delayed, but they managed to fire. That rocket lit that candle so proud. It was awesome. I think the best line and the whole thing was when were starting to kind of Let's light this candle? Yes. And that was official from the NASA people was let's light this candle. It's like what you would never hear that from. You know like a government agency being so strict and by the book and everything. That was good. That kind of gave me the warm fuzzy. That's right and then of course later in the week was able to dock with the ISS. And and they welcomed them into the International Space Station it was awesome. Very I watched a couple of live streams on youtube from NASA where they were speaking with the astronauts. Cool I thought it was really amazing. Amazon may be moving into the autonomous vehicle world with reported talks to buy Zouk. Zouk they've been struggling to raise funding for electric powered robot taxis, Amazon has a team working on driverless vehicle technology to enhance its e commerce delivery options. You see all these little Prime Amazon vans running around the country in run around your town. Well imagine that they have no drivers because that'll be the next thing, and that's what they're working on driverless tech, so you think it's bad now when your stuff just gets tossed to your front door. With no driver to bring it to the door. How are they going to do? They're going to have some robotic leg drop. Kick it into your yard and hope that you get it. Yeah, yeah, because you'll get a notification. Your package has arrived exactly where Dono go out. Look for it. It's there somewhere. Let's the neighbor stolen like when I ordered my brand new echo show and Amazon delivered it on a stormy day and left it. Not Not in front of the front door was under the cover right there where it was getting rained on all day, so it was all wet. Thank God that was wrapped in plastic the cardboard box. It was just completely soggy. You at the time I got because I'm most curious how they're gonNA do deliveries with driverless vehicles. Kind of be interesting, maybe they just drive right up to the front door. Maybe never mind everything in the way you're flowerpots and you're you're. The robot just opens the backdoor. The van throat and reverse speed up on the brakes. That couldn't be and your package goes tumbling toward the door. They help well. We'll see we'll stay on that. Stay tuned. But now I'm sure we've all heard of the Donald trump twitter feud based on a tweet from the president that the social media company said incites violence. The same post appeared on facebook who determined that it didn't violate their rules and left the post in place. They didn't even put a warning on it or anything right well. That didn't go over very well. facebook employee's. Many of them are staging a rare protest against the company for not deleting that post, the employees who began publicly criticizing the social media on rival network twitter have escalated their disapproval by staging a virtual walkout and symbolically changing workplace profile pictures to the twitter logo. Their workplace profile picture Oh wow I wonder how many of them are going to still be employed next week probably not very many. Because if I were them. Company, they can do whatever they want and they can say. You're harming the company's image. You're done. You know you've been here way too long. Apparently by go work for twitter since you want to promote them. I think Zuck grow some and just fire anybody that is messing with his own company. Based in. California isn't one of those right to work states or something that we have here in Florida. How? Do that Monica good, you could just shut it down. No, he won't do that because then he'll lose billions of dollars that work. If you like the chrome browser, you'll be happy to know that. Google has launched chrome eighty-three for windows. Mac Lennox android and IOS with chrome eighty-three many versions there have been of Chrome Pretty Wild with redesign privacy insecurity settings of reorganized extensions menu and And now an option for blocking third party cookies in incognito mode, the update also comes with a safety check, so users can find out if their passwords have been compromised as well as an enhanced safe browsing mode that offers more proactive and tailored protections from our fishing and other threats. They'll something to look forward to. If you'd like to use chrome and don't we all yeah? According to a New York Post report apple is tracking the iphones that have been stolen from its stores during the recent riots across the US. Citing a message from twitter, the Post reported the stolen devices show a message on the screen. Saying the device should be returned to where it was stolen from, and that it has been disabled authorities will be notified. The source familiar with the company's thinking said the messages have been in place for some time. The Tech Titan, which had start to reopen some of its US stores that were closed as a result of virus, so many of their stores attacked and cities across the country. In fact from one of our listeners Joe in Kennesaw Georgia. He says quote. Let's break into an apple store and steal all these devices with Wi fi bluetooth four GPS. They'll never find us. Said a group of absolute geniuses like these people who have been stealing the stuff. And? We've talked so many times. iphones that have been reported stolen or locked can't be unlocked. We that's been a big problem with people that trade their phones in and sell sell them to these third party services. Many of those votes can't be used because the person selling. It doesn't unlock it her, and then there's no way to unlock a locked phone. Yeah, that's why those companies like trade up. Up We've had their CEO on the show. And people and companies like that are begging people to follow these instructions so that you wipe your data from it, but leave it unlocked or leave it in a factory reset position, so it can be used otherwise. They're getting them in a paper wave. And when I upgraded my last phone, t mobile when I was in the store they had to. To in front of them, go through the menu to show them that I had already done the unlocking and turned off the find my iphone. Because better do that, they wouldn't be able to use the phone while you can't blame them that case because it's otherwise again. It's useless so houses don't steal something that you can be tracked. Will that's the point? They're geniuses. They don't know that all good. Good and IPHONE and IPAD. All these devices set not only can they track, but they are tracking them, and they are sharing this information appropriately with law enforcement, and saying you want to go get a bunch of stuff that was looted from our stores. Here you go. Here's where it is. Hopefully you can make some arrests at the same time for these idiots at have them in their possession. So that's absurd, I mean di-. Amazon also made a couple of announcements about a drop in intercom feature which I kind of thought they were doing all along, but they've enhanced it. That lets you have two way communication on all echo devices all around your home simultaneously. Schedule reminders that can be set for announcements on all devices that you have because I find that bit of a challenge. If I tell Alexa to remind me of something and I'm using the echo dot in the bedroom. If I'm not in the bedroom. Unfortunately, it also shows up on the phone because she'll just haunt you and follow you anywhere. But if you don't have those things set, you're gonNA. Miss those reminders so now you could actually set to go off on all your devices, so you're echo, show your echo. Don't show your echo dots year. ECHO dashes all of the different things. You can set it to go off for all of the drop, intercom or reminders now to. To read watch or listen to the news this past week. You might have thought with all the talk about twitter. It was the most visited website in the world, but it's actually far from it on the com- score ranking of the top fifty most visited website, it ranked number twenty boil it averages, one, hundred, sixty, six, million daily active users, compared to two hundred and twenty, nine, million for Snapchat, five, hundred, million for instagram or one point, six, six billion for Facebook, the most popular social network Amazon Apple, the weather channel, and even pay pal get way more traffic than twitter, holy cow, and that was that was a some numbers that surprised me poor Jack Dorsey. Feel. Sorry for him not. While weaponized misinformation has been flooding all over antisocial media. Those black boxes that you probably saw all over social media last Tuesday apparently did much more harm than good. According to many activists, it involved or a rather evolved into the hashtag blackout, Tuesday, when people were making their facebook profile picture, just plain black box, and posting the same on instagram and twitter and various other sources to attempt to show solidarity, but in so doing many also were tagging Hashtag black lives matter making it more difficult for people. Following the black lives matter movement to search for helpful information as protests were ongoing throughout the United States and elsewhere, so they were saying don't do that it. You're messing up. Actual stuff that we're trying to help get information out and keep people calm and and just answer questions and do that sort of thing so I know a whole bunch of my. Friends were posting just the black box. Or black circle for their profile, picture or something like that last Tuesday. Some of them still have it up because they're too stupid to know how to change it, I guess. But it wasn't helping. It was harming the whole idea. Well, that's social media. Does it harms at all it does is. And I'm in the middle of my sort of facebook sabbatical and my mental health break from social media because I just decided that it was too much, and you know as we're recording the show about eighteen hours into it and I haven't missed it once I. Haven't you know felt the need to reinstall the APP my phone law run to facebook, and just because you know what. What I need I needed that break. You've had absolutely no desire now. Wow, because the theory behind social media is a good idea, an idea to be able to keep people together, but in practice it's like a cancer that kind of you know deteriorates relationships, and probably divide people more than anything else. Well, that's true. We've said the worst thing to happen to this country as twitter. For all kinds of reasons, just ridiculous. When we've talked about our favorite technology, the last twenty five years social media's both my Schmidt, my favorite end, my least favorite, because I think it's good and bad. He wants to have it both ways yeah. Can't have it both ways, which is why I'm just decided to not have it all right, so you're on facebook break. Break so people try to friend you. You won't even know it. No I mean. He actually showed me on his phone where the facebook icon is gone. He deleted it and it's just temporary. And I and I even said that was my last post. You know I'm GonNa. Go get off this platform for lyle, and how long has a little while I? Don't know why just settle while. A little while could be two hours could be two weeks. But so far, it's been a few days, so I don't think it lasts longer. You stay off facebook for a while. And then I'll go back on and I'll see if anything's changed. which probably won't then I'll just go off it again. got. Nothing has changed, but we are coming to you from the decks. COM STUDIOS MAKE knowledge. You're superpower for managing type. ONE DIABETES VISIT DECKS COM DOT COM. That's D. E. X. C., O. M., dot, com, and tell them Dave sent you bob in El Paso. Texas listens to the free into tomorrow podcast. You can sign up for them as well that I mentioned. They're free and also no charge. Charge when you hit us up at in tomorrow, DOT com. Hey, bob, hey, Dave. We really like to use some of these social distancing internet platforms like zoom, but the problem with zoom is. It's forty minutes for the free version. We're looking for some alternative. Can you suggest something that's good? That allows the family to talk together besides some of the more popular ones that require a subscription. Sure you mean other than in person if you can as a family but I get where you're coming from Bob Google meet should work well for your needs. Their tiled view can show up to sixteen participants at a time. If your family members could connect to zoom, they should be able to easily connect to Google. Meet using the same devices computer desktop laptop tablet phone. What have you Google's been pushing it pretty hard lately, so you're unlikely to run into any annoyances until they conquer more market share and want to maybe try to monetize it more, but for the most part you can do it, skype. skype of course has gotten pretty clunky and very bloated. If you will, but it should also work for the family to now if your family already uses what's APP you can also videoconferences there, which might spare them from having download an extra APP. Microsoft teams might work for you as well. It's a little more of a corporate tool meant to help with collaboration on office documents, but you can ignore that part and just use the video other ways of connecting with families with Facebook Messenger. They have video chat option. SNAPCHAT has video chat as well there. You can play games and filters to your video output. FACETIME is another choice. If you happen to use apple devices if you're not an IPHONE facetime is not an option. But if you're an iphone like you're smart and he's iphones these town. But yeah, it has filters to which now you can make your conversations a little more fun. Any gamers would probably no discord is a great way to stay connected. That's what it's called discord. See I did not know that not being a Gamer while playing video games at least a you and your family can video chat and play games with one another with House party as well. There are many many others, but most of the good ones have the same problems zoom has for your use case. They're marketed towards businesses, and obviously they have limits. Yeah, it's like whereby it's a pretty good service, but has a low amount of participants on the free accounts. Blue jeans cost less than zoom per month, but it has no free version. Webex feels like something that somebody forgot to keep updating about five years ago. And the free version will cut you off after less than an hour and gotomeeting has no free version. Now the good news is there's probably plenty of options, even if most products are aimed towards paid us for business. Yeah, Bob let us know if any of what we recommended helped you out and what you end up using and what worked best for? For you and why, and of course if you're unable to have made a note of all of the things we talked about. It's all there for you at into tomorrow dot. com just look for the show notes for the show for June fifth twenty twenty two Friday day, going into the weekend and Voila. It's all there again at into tomorrow Dot Com. This is an important announcement for anyone who wants health insurance. Even if you missed the deadline right now, you can get the health insurance you and your family need from top insurance providers, even if you have pre existing conditions or no insurance at all, they'll plus benefits. Health Insurance toll free number has been extended to help anyone who wants health insurance coverage now or if you need a better plan or a lower price, called plus benefits health insurance now at eight, hundred, three, three, two, one, nine, three. The call is one hundred percent free, and that help Israel call eight, hundred, three, three, two, one, nine, nine, three. That's eight, hundred, three, two, one, nine, nine three. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more on at least two federal student loans, then you may qualify for new programs offered by the Department of Education. These programs can reduce your interest lower your payments and possibly qualify you for loan forgiveness. 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Sure it'll be a long road back along the way. If we stay smart, we'll stay safe and you can help. Bring back local businesses that have suffered most many never missed a beat during the crisis whether it's restaurant, takeout or other safe services. They're still here for you. Be there for them and tell them. Thanks from into tomorrow. EPI, twenty fifth, Anniversary Opio another twenty five years being on the radio. Great show well. Thank you Gary in Plymouth Township. We do appreciate that into tomorrow continues I'm Dave grave line. I'm Chris, Craven, on this portion of into tomorrow is brought to you in part by Hughes Net, high speed satellite Internet available where you live or work text, the word radio to thirty five. Five thousand again text the word radio, two, three, five, zero, zero zero student a few minutes to be chatting with Dr David Feinberg. He's the head of Google health going to talk about how Google is providing tools to people to self screen for various mental health issues. Yeah, pretty cool interview, so you WanNa stay tune with that doctor person coming up a couple of minutes. into favorite. What's your favorite APP? Well, Danny has a new one that she contributed to the show this week. Her new favorite APP is neum. That's how you say it like noon with an m right? Okay, it's difficult to stay healthy, usually even more difficult during these hard times, but if you ever WanNa, try losing weight Neum is Chris is shaking his head. No neum is an APP. You may want to consider after signing up setting your goal weight answering just a few questions and picking A. A payment to plan the applets you log what you eat and you document your weight you offer. They offer healthy recipes, tips and tricks, and even has a personal coach that you can reach to stay motivated pretty cool if you ask me, so that's called Neum, and it's Danny's apple of the week, and it's no charge initially, but then you can spend money on it. Apparently something like that that could very well be the case, but do check it out. into. Tomorrow's favorite the week. What's your favorite APP? Tell us about your favorite APP. Just use the audio option on the free into tomorrow. APP to participate, just search these two words into tomorrow in your favorite APP store tap our APP and get your into tomorrow to go. Money now one hundred is not a lender broker or agent of any lender or financial advisor. We do not make loans or credit decisions. You must be eighteen years or older and a US resident to qualify. 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Maybe forty two third party lenders solely responsible for reviewing approving in servicing any loan zoom revised not affiliated with any state or federal agency, and does not provide mortgage adviser help no income check loans for investment properties. Only an income must be sufficient to surface. Welcome back into tomorrow. I'm Dave Grave Line our twenty fifth year on the air, covering the latest in consumer, tech products and services, gadgets and Gizmos all sorts of things, available today and into tomorrow our next guest is with a team that applies Google's expertise in all kinds of things, but certainly in a I product, innovation and hardware to take on big healthcare challenges I think it's safe to say. He and his team have been quite busy these days. The head of Google Health is Dr David, Feinberg, Dr, Feinberg welcome into tomorrow. How are you sir? I'm doing great. Thanks glad to have you with us so much going on. We talk on the show regularly the last several years. Years certainly about Ai, but most certainly the last couple of months. We've all been talking so much more about health and various things that need to be concerned with, and how a is playing such an important role. What is it that you guys are working on specifically that you can share with us these days Sarah, so a lot that I'd be happy to share with you We're getting so many questions at Google around covert and Corona virus, as you could imagine a lot of about how to stay safe when we've really seen over the last month or so is a big increase in questions around people with mental health. You think about it. It's like a perfect storm, right? The infection and job loss the food insecurity to social distancing leading to social isolation even before the pandemic. We know there's lots of folks with anxiety disorders. We're seeing a lot of them. Come to Google now, so we WANNA make available is really authoritative information, so it's easy for you. Learn about anxiety disorder and we now launched our third. What we call screener, so you can actually check out for yourself. Your signs and symptoms of anxiety in private way sets that you can then decide to make sense to get treatment, and we put those resources in partnership with the National Line Mentally. Ill because we want people to go from suffering to tweet in a shorter time period. So that's something we've been working on very hard over the last month or so to get depression post, traumatic stress disorder now. Sort of treatment available. I'm sorry screeners available to people, so they can do these self checkers while David that is so important. I think especially these days as you mentioned, but also because whether or not the people might be correct or not. There seems to be these concerns. Were folks save now? I don't need to go talk to a doctor about this. Yeah, of course I'm depressed so's everybody lately. What but that's not the case and I think for you to. To have a tool that is useful for folks to see whether or not there you know acting in a way that the rest of us are just kind of like. Oh, my Gosh we've got to get out of this and move ahead or whether they do need some additional assistance, and it's not a problem to do that and to ask for help and I think what you're doing is instrumental in helping folks mental health on a on a huge scale. Our scale is is such that we think we can have a real impact. People with anxiety disorders can sometimes spent a decade before they share symptoms of suffering with a loved one with a family member with a doctor with a council with clergy, so we want to decrease that period of time that people go from having symptoms and suffering to where they kind of understand what's going on and get treatment if necessary, and it's interesting, I just got an message in the studio. My team Google you to ascertain. You're an actual medical doctor, so I imagine in your own practice in your own. Experience you are seeing the the medical conditions that affect people as their mental health is also affected. Yes, so I am a trained child and Adolescent Psychiatry as an adult psychiatrist and addiction psychiatrist, and have the privilege of running the whole Google health team. We have lots of doctors and nurses and pharmacists on our team and our job along with amazing, you know engineers and product folks and other. Researchers is to make sure that on any of the Google surfaces when people come asking questions for health that they're getting answers that are thwarted. That makes sense that help you take that next step in the so I'm surrounded by a great team of clinicians. that are experts in public health all the way to specialty. We do a lot of work with. Diabetic retinopathy. We do a lot of radiological work, so you know Google tools doctors. It's a whole group of doctors and nurses and others that are trying to make this technology work. That's that it makes everyone live a better life. Make it easier for you to stay healthy or get healthy. That is terrific Kudos to you and your team for these kinds of things. I'm wondering if part of what spurred the initiative I can't help, but ask is. Have you discovered that so many people are actually googling. If you will some assistance in this manner, and then you figured we've got to do something. We certainly have a good team available to make this happen. Is that part of the initiative perhaps? That's exactly the initiative I. We're really here to serve our users into the helpful to allow people to you know, have health and success and knowledge i. mean that's what Google about. And so when we see users asking questions in the mental health arena I believe it's our moral imperative to provide them with that authoritative information. Allow them to figure out what the next step is, so that's exactly what he did. This excellent well, and again you certainly are in a position to know when folks are searching for something where they truly need some assistance, and they're desperately seeking appropriate information. You're able to say we got you. And we've got that information for you and here's what we can do to help. And that is so critically important, and then at at some point. I'm assuming part of what you do, you will then recommend that they see a medical professional at that point that they see someone who can assist them with any. Issues that they are dealing with. We do that through partnership, so it may be. Here's what Mayo Clinic said so. Here's what the National Alliance the mentally ill says. They're the ones who would be saying. Yeah, this is the right kind of treatment. We just want to help. Organize that information. Make accessible. Make it useful of the. We need to be very careful. that care takes place between the doctor and the patient and that made the online, but we are not providing the diagnosis or the actual medical intervention, and in that makes perfect sense you. You can't really do that. Especially online we talk all the time about folks going to web, md or something else and diagnosing themselves if it's for information, that's terrific, but your use seek the appropriate assistance the. If you really have an issue that understandably, you'd be concerned about and and health dot. Google is a certain, certainly a great place to start with a lot of this as well. What are some of the tips doctor that that you can provide to us at folks can use to make sure that they are getting the best information. Check the sources, so we really try to bring up the authoritative sources, so it's easy to find them, but you want to look for you know your trusted health local providers for the State Department of Public Health, the CDC the brands like Mayo to give great information. That's really important. The other tips that we're giving you out for advice. is we want everybody to? To be at this time to be kind to their mind, because we've seen so much of the mental health questions come to us so the tips we have there, and it was in partnership with the CDC was. We want everyone to pause and take a breath. We want everyone to take a break and that could be a break from the news we need to make. Make! Sure your sleep and your exercise they get, and if you're overwhelmed or unsafe to seek out and get help, and what a great mantra to be kind to your mind, and I think a lot of us. Don't stop and think about that. You know we're concerned about the health issues and wearing a mask can do. We need gloves, and and how do we? We deal with things in washing our hands correctly all the things that we hear a lot about, but then obviously it can get to us, and in fact it does get to us, so be kind to our mind is something that we also need to take into consideration perhaps more so than a lot of other issues. We think we're dealing with you. Know your your. Topic, because started with do the five and that was around. Wash your hands coughing to your elbow. Don't touch your face. They Home Sixteen and that was our first public service. And then that then morphed into because your mind, because we saw the questions coming in, so we tried to do both, and they came in that order, but I appreciate you. famous by all means, and we appreciate you providing a few minutes to share some of that with us. Keep up the good work, you and your team, obviously a whole bunch of folks there to help a lot of people and visit health dot Google. Dot Com dot, org or anything else. It must be nice to have your own domain like that what we do, too, but mean health dot. Google will get you there, and of course we will get to their a mouse. Click away when you hit us up at into tomorrow dot. com Dr Heinberg. Thank you so much for not only the work you do, but for spending a few minutes with us here on into tomorrow my pleasure, thank you. You gave and by all means Youtube. Sir Dr David Feinberg the head of Google health at Google rather health dot Google health dot Google will get you right there. Check it out. Live your healthiest life, and they talk about a lot of things that will help you a lot. And there's a picture of Dr Heinberg right there on the page as well I'm Dave we continue bringing you further into tomorrow. Right here on the advanced media, network. I owed. The IRS ten thousand dollars. The IRS garnished my wages. They put a lien on my house. The IRS is the most powerful collection agency in the world. They do not give up until you pay. I couldn't sleep. We were being audited by called tax solutions now and a great big weight was lifted off my shoulders call tax solutions now, and they got the irs off my back solutions. Now had my wage-garnishment lifted in forty-eight hours. Tax Solutions Now can get you help. Our agents know the. The rules can stop the pain and get you the best deal. We connect you with a team of former IRS agents and tax professionals who will get the IRS on your back? We saved our home and overcame the most powerful collection agency in the world. Call tax solutions now time is running out call eight, hundred, nine, one, zero, nine, nine, six to eight, hundred, nine, one, zero, nine, nine, six to eight, hundred, nine, one, zero, nine, nine, six to eight, hundred, nine, hundred, zero, nine, nine, six to. Anyone living with diabetes knows how difficult tracking your glucose levels can be. That's where decks calms. G. Six continuous glucose monitor comes in here's decks COM CEO Kevin Sayer somebody managing their diabetes prior see jam would stick their finger anywhere between four and eight or twelve times a day. If they're really trying to manage their blood glucose values, and with that finger prick, all you get is a number with the system. You get Lucas. Reading sent right to your smart device or Or receiver with zero finger pricks. We get a glucose reading every five minutes automatically that tells you where your glucose levels are heading, and that makes managing your diabetes easy. We did see a tremendous improvement in overall healthcare. Anyone sees go down. Time Spent Heidi creases? Time spent low decreases, and not only is everybody happier. They get healthier as well make not or superpower with the decks Com G. Sex, continuous glucose monitoring system learn more at Walgreens or at decks com DAX. Dot Com. Airlines have just reduced their prices even more thirty days in advance and save big one. The absolute lowest prices on your airline tickets then call the low cost. Airlines travel hotline right now for prices so low. We can't publish them anywhere. The only way to access our low rates and save up to seventy percent is to call. Save hundreds on your vacation tickets by calling right now. You can fly anywhere in the world. World and paid discount prices on your airline tickets a flight today to London Paris Madrid or anywhere else. You want to go and pay a lot less guaranteed call the international travel department right now at low cost airlines, eight, hundred, four, one, nine, two, three, three, five, eight, hundred, four, one, nine, two, three, three, five, eight, hundred, four, one, nine, two, three, three, five. That's eight, hundred, four, one, nine, twenty, three, thirty five. Welcome back into tomorrow with a little tech. Fun Fact for you. facebook causes you to over estimate how happy your friends are and intern! Makes you depressed. That's just fact. It's not an opinion that was actually studies done to that I. Know and Pretty Sad, but welcome back into tomorrow where we try to keep your happy I'm Dave, gravely I'm Chris Craven. This portion of into tomorrow is brought to you in part by stream, guys, streaming media and podcasting solutions for the smartest businesses on the Internet visit stream. GUYS DOT COM. tinus! Jumping the yesterday with this week in tech history, history history. During Chris. Christie, ooh, that's a good one you like that. You can take Kristoff if. That'll be the last year that yeah this week back in eighteen eighty seven, US inventor Herman Hollering submitted his patent application for the art of compiling statistics. That actually was from Apple Tom. This punched card calculator. This machine is a big step towards automated computation. His company originally did business under the name, the hollered electric tabulating system specializing in punched card data processing equipment. Oh, what a great company name! Yeah! The company joined three others in nineteen eleven to become an even better name the computing tabulating recording company most illogical well. That's why nineteen twenty four. They renamed the company. And they became IBM. Wow, believe it or not getting the punch cards and machines at Holler came up with to read them are still in use in some parts of the world, and were they were front stage during the two thousand presidential election and the whole hanging Chad debacle here in Florida where flora. As some people call our state Florida. Yeah, hanging Chad I. Remember Him. In one thousand, nine, hundred six this week Lennox version, two point zero was released two point. Oh as significant improvement over earlier versions of the operating system that some experts said would become a competitor for Microsoft Windows. Several versions of Lennox have been developed as many in the computing world look for ways to wriggle free from the clutches of Microsoft Whoa. Yes. No In, one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety eight this week Compaq computer paid nine billion dollars for digital equipment corporation in what was at the time, the largest merger in the history of the Computer Industry Compaq soon found itself in financial difficulty of its own and subsequently merged with Hewlett Packard who then retired the compaq brand twenty thirteen. Probably! That's probably what they said when they retired the brand. And this week in two thousand three, the Spirit rover was launched beginning Nasr's Mars Exploration Rover. Mission nearly seven months later, the rover arrived at the Red Planet and landed successfully. The Spirit rover's mission was expected to last about ninety two earth days, but ended up going a little bit longer than that. It was only when spirit got stuck in a sand trap at an. An angle that hampered solar, recharging its batteries that its mission was finally halted five years three months and twenty seven days after landing. Wow, and again, how originally? How long was it supposed to do its job? Ninety two days and it went five years months and twenty seven. That's pretty cool. American ingenuity. If you ask me an interesting side note, part of spirits rock. Rock Abrasion. Tool was made with aluminum that was recovered from the site of the World Trade Center towers in New York City Oh. Wow did not know that either. That's our look back at this week. In Tech history brought to you by E in Berlin. The Global Innovation Show since nineteen, twenty, four for Consumer Tech and home appliances and by e for next the. The launch pad for innovations get more INFO at IFA Dash. Berlin Dot Com all right. We shall do just that mark in Windsor Ontario Canada lessons on am eight hundred CK klw. They're also known as the information station Hello Mark. How do I know? It's my Roederer my modem. That's causing me issue because I have some devices that work and some stay connected, but. But no later. Oh, well, if some work and some don't. It's your router? The routing a router does is in part routing Internet requests back to the devices that made them. The Modem doesn't take care of that part. The devices that don't work may have their own settings issues, too, so don't forget to check those as well. Yeah, if you want to check and see. See if your modem is doing its job plugging your computer via a network cable directly to it and check at the source, if you get a solid Internet connection than your modem is working as it should, and you can go ahead and replace your router there. You go out that help you out mark because a lot of times, routers, the issues and when you. You can try to update those items say when you call in and participate even this week before the big summer giveaway starts. We've got some goodies for you. Know promises no guarantees, but mention any of the following. Do our best to get them to you like for example from Audio Technica Got Bluetooth wireless ear buds with charging case. Oh access has sent a several. Several of their my first instant cameras for kids Sandisk has provided some dual drive USB three point one type for smartphones, tablets and computers urban armor gear silicone straps for Apple. Watches. You got an Apple Watch. We got a pretty cool strap for you and we still got a code left for Turbo tax. You haven't done your taxes yet, so get that requested now. Eight hundred, eight, nine, nine, into or the into tomorrow APP. Attention. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more in tax debt? Millions of Americans like you owe the irs more than ten thousand dollars interfacing Leans Bank levies wage garnishments handle the abatements and other irs enforcement actions newly authorized debt forgiveness programs. Allow you to settle your dad's for less than ever before. Do you owe the irs ten thousand dollars or more in back taxes? If so then call our tax settlement helpline now you work hard for your money protected, protect your assets and protect your lifestyle to by calling our. Our tax settlement helpline. Our Network of tax professionals will fight for you. They have helped save their clients. 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You wondered why people spend so much time reading celebrity blogs. You read celebrity blog. You plan to work out. You skipped it. You did all the things that one normally does. The day before a devastating earthquake shakes the community to the ground. You never know when the day before is. The day before prepare for tomorrow at ready dot, Gov Slash Day brought to you by FEMA and the Ad Council. Why is the Sky Blue? Why don't animals talk? Why do dogs have noses wives? Some eleven pronounced one one kids. Ask a Lotta questions. Why do I have a belly button, but you don't have to know. Every answer is the ocean salty. Perfect parent. Thousands of children in foster care who don't need every question answered is pizza around just need you for more information on how you can adopt. Go to adoptuskids dot org a public service announcement from the US Department of Health and Human Services, adoptuskids, and the Ad Council, Dear smokey bear for teaching us how to prevent wildfires for seventy years. Outdoor lovers would like to say something. Happy Seventieth Guy, let's bring it in for a bear. Hug. Come for safety. Tips visit smokybear dot. com brought to you by the US forest. Service your state forester and the Ad Council. I make learning a privilege, not a chore and Frustration a Tool Not an obstacle I'm a teacher. I make more. More teach visit, teach dot. Org brought to you by teach and the Ad Council. On Radio, the original social media you're to into tomorrow. I'm Dave, grave line I'm Chris Gray on this parliamentary tomorrow brought to you by decks calm the only continuous glucose monitor FDA permitted for kids, ages, two years and up visit decks, com dot com. that's t e x COM DOT COM. This is Tim Baharan best wishes and congratulations for twenty five years of into two zero as technology analyst I've had the chance of listening to the show many times over the years. Love the way it keeps me inform now. Tech Industry is fascinating because of its growth and its. Its potential and its impact on all of us. It's a hard industry to follow, but having resources like into tomorrow help speed up my learning curve, and it's a great radio show. Congratulations well, thank you Tim Tim. From San Jose California and has been a guest on the show several times over the years as well. He's got always a real good and nalysts of goings on kind of fun to have him join us, periodically Joe in Durham, North Carolina listens on news radio six eighty. WPF Hello. Joe Catches wanted to alert. Do so that you can notify your. Listeners that I'm doing getting. Junk email that's claims. It's from the US Census Bureau. And I know the Census Bureau doesn't send you emails asking you to complete a survey. I haven't. Responded because I believe that this would just be to my detriment in anyone's detriment, who response so I just wanted to warn your listeners to beware well, and you have done just that Joe. Thank you very much and of course Chris found this from the actual Census Bureau. If you get an email and think it's bogus, do not reply. Do Not Click on any links and do not opening any attachments. Do then forward the email or website url to the Census Bureau. They say it's at a yes. Dot Fraud Dot reporting at Census Dot. Gov that will have this a site it tomorrow. DOT COM, because everybody won't remember that. Of course, not sure typical government email address read I don't remember. Something about Census Dot Gov and then and then delete the message. They said that they'll investigate and notify you of the findings if there are any findings. Do. You get our free once a week tech news letter. If so, you're smart, because you'll be the first to officially know when the big summer giveaway starts among other cool things. And how do you get the tech newsletter very easy? Visit US at into tomorrow, DOT COM little box POPs up. If all goes well, you put only your email address in there and Voila when you answer the subsequent emails double. Opt in thing because we don't spam anyone that says, click this link, and then you'll be getting it. You will be getting it. It's free. It works that way. It's once a week. It's our tech newsletter among other things. What have we got this weekend? Best Tech Tip brain health with your tech. An June is National Alzheimer's and brain awareness month, then using your tech is a great exercise, your brain to keep it healthy and help prevent Alzheimer's disease, and there's a lot of options beyond the big three phone carriers in the US. If you're looking to save money, we tell you in this week's tech newsletter about some lesser known low cost cell phone plans. That just might be the ticket for you. It's all in this week's into tomorrow Tech News letter, be sure to sign up at into tomorrow. Dot Com. If you're fed up with your credit cards, high interest rates, and your balances are so out of control that they never seemed to go down. One Call Consolidated Credit can get the relief you need. Consolidated credit has helped over six million people with credit card debt and they're certified. Credit counselors are ready to help you. They can consolidate your debts into one lower payment. Reduce your interest rates and get you out of debt fast without. Without destroying your credit, the program works and the consultation is free, call consolidated credit now eight, hundred, two, four, three, one, four, eight, hundred, two, one, four, three, one four. That's eight, hundred, two, one, four three one o four consolidated credit solutions, Fifty, seven, zero, one West, Sunrise Boulevard, Fort, Lauderdale Florida, three, three, one, three, licensed by the New York Department of Financial Services invited. Department of Financial Regulation. Maryland D in fourteen, hundred zero four. Eight two licensed by Virginia. State Corporation Commission license. Earth DC three servicemen steak mortgages credit. Of! Debt may lead to additional finance. Charges were collections activities including legal action on? Things. The heartland newsbeat radio would listen online at hotlines news dot, com, five, free sixty five. And hotline newsbeat Alexa Radio Skill. Stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by you. Follow us on facebook, twitter and instagram. This is the liberty. Beat your daily source for liberty. News and activists updates produced in partnership with the SNL s network and listeners like you. Online at SNL S Network Dot Com I'm Murrow with your latest addition at the Liberty beat. Golden starting at one thousand, seven hundred forty dollars silver at eighteen dollars and seventy seven cents, and Bitcoin is starting at ten thousand sixty dollars. Today's gold silver in bitcoin prices are brought to you by braves. HIGH-QUALITY CREIDIM and CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Brave botanical is activists known and mission driven. The liberty and bray botanical believe so strongly in the power of them. We're giving it away four for eight. Just go to liberty. BEAT DOT news slash. Recreate them. This is the liberty beat at SNL network, DOT com. In the news the Kentucky. National Guard fired live ammunition at a crowd while enforcing the recently imposed curfew in the very early hours of Monday morning, leaving at least one person dead, the mind at least forty incident took place just after midnight, according to Louisville Metro police chief Steve Conrad who said that the city's police were sent away parking lot to break up a crowd along with the National Guard. The police and the National Guard claim. They were shot at during the altercation, but they've given no proof to support those claims. Meanwhile amid racial unrest across the nation president trump on Monday declared himself the president of law and order and threatened to deploy the United States military to American cities to quell a rise of violent protests earlier, he spoke to governors on a video teleconference with law enforcement and national security officials telling these state leaders. They have to get much tougher criticizing their responses. Ever wonder where we find all the news report right here on the liberty. Meet visit. SNL S DOT news to get. The world's most censored media published all in one place. Save yourself from the time spent searching for reliable alternative media. SNL S news makes it quick and easy. No ads no click. Bait just roll headlines Twenty four hours a day. visit, SNL, S, Dot News and get informed today without the corporate media span. Your News now continues George. Floyd, who died after being choked by Minneapolis, police officer Derek shoving last Monday succumb to as fixation as a result of show WTN's actions. That's according to an independent. Ordered by his family. The Free Thought Project reports. The findings of the autopsy carried out by Medical Examiners Dr Michael Bayden and Dr Alicia. Wilson, differ from those of the Hennepin County Minnesota medical examiner who examined Floyd's body before Shannon was charged with murder on Friday. Floyd's apparent murder shocked the nation with a video showing the last agonizing eight minutes of his life, triggering protests and riots across the US nearly a week later, the protest at school waited into full, blown anarchy, looting and arson. People in a number of international cities violated bans on large gatherings over the weekend to show solidarity with protests against police brutality that have exploded at least one hundred forty cities across the United States. The rethought project reports political leaders overseas condemned the killing of George void, who died after now former Minneapolis officer. Derek chauve impressed his knee into Floyd's neck for over eight minutes, while the man was unarmed and handcuffed, and as onlookers pleaded, which opened to stop. An estimated fifteen hundred people in Berlin march Sunday a day after more than two thousand people gathered outside the US embassy where they chanted black lives, matter and help pictures of Floyd. In England officials Friday announcing arrest of CNN correspondent Omar Jimenez and his camera crew as they on the protests in Minneapolis Michelle Bachelet the High Commissioner for Human Rights at the United. Nations called on the United States to take serious action to in police killings of civilians, which happened nearly one thousand one hundred times in twenty nineteen. Support for the Liberty League is brought to you by the homestead you rue. The homestead guru is an educational website offering tips, tools, News, stories and commentary on everything home standing. Topic, glued green homes gardening and we'll husband drink. Do It yourself home. Remedies Alternative Energy survival isn't on schooling and more. Those details for found online at the homestead Docu. This is the liberty beat Howard by the L.. S. Network at SNL S NETWORK DOT com. I make murrow reporting for the liberty being reminding you spread liberty with a smile, so you've decided to go to college pop quiz, which is a better way to earn your degree. Can you to college and fill your guest and get stuck in traffic? Drive in bad weather? Try to find a parking space. Walk half-mile, the class, or learn online at Independence University in the park bench on the Beach Hotel, or on your couch with your kid. Your campus is wherever you want it to be. That's independence university at all your supplies including Operandi. Laptop and tablet included with tuition, one, eight, hundred, nine, six, one, zero, four, eight, one, one, eight, hundred, nine, six, one, zero, four, eight one. Welcome into tomorrow with Dave grave line the Interactive Radio Network Program with the latest in high tech products and services and the experts who bring them to you. This is into tomorrow. Here's Dave grave line. It is into tomorrow for the weekend of June. The Fifth Two Thousand Eight, hundred, twenty, using the Friday dates always going into the weekend, so you can visit into tomorrow. Dot Com, check our show notes and links to all of our guests sites, and all that kind of cool stuff. Maybe hear your call again. If you should have missed it on the radio, it's all there for you, and of course you can also sign up for our tech news letter there as well as our free podcasts among other things. Putting up new posts every single week, every couple of days as a matter of fact like you want to check out the tech tips produced by Danny, G and other goodies, including into gaming and other stuff Chris's this week in Tech. History video history history. Among other things, so visit us at into tomorrow. Dot Com as the announcer dude said I. Am you're humble? Host Dave grave line. We didn't say the humble host part. I'm saying that. And you are the not so humble. Chris Gravely. That's for sure in the control room here in our Miami Studios is Danny, G and working with the show from various parts of the world era, SMO- in south beach and coconut. Creek Beth, in Naples Horatio in New York, city. Am I leaving anyone out? The Benny and Lisa Leipzig. Is it leaps light. I think it has Leipzig Germany, that's very true, also assisting with the show, and this all kinds of folks and more importantly you, wherever in the world you are calling in and participating and the easiest way to do that as a few live North America, it's toll free, and that number is eight, hundred, eight, nine, nine, four, six, eight, six, which is eight, hundred, eight nine into that you go, and otherwise we much prefer you use the free into tomorrow APP. Just search those two words and your favorite APP store into tomorrow, and it won't cost you anything. It's free. Yeah, there's no charge Mungo exactly and you can get the APP then. You can participate that way. Had Our guy in the area that's in charge of sprinklers and taking care of landscaping issues and stuff come up to the other day, and he says Oh man I've got an APP. You guys need to try for sure you'RE GONNA. Love it. And he starts playing it. And it, some lady, talking and I'm thinking okay. What is it and he wouldn't let me see the phone? He's just holding up the speaker. Toward my ear, and then he turns it toward me, and it's the into tomorrow APP and it was an interview that I was doing with someone who has recently on the show. I didn't recognize your voice at the time, and then all of a sudden there I am, and he said Oh funny, believe it or not. I have the APP he goes, do you? He's I thought it was the best thing I'm telling everybody about it great. Go back to work that you have a sprinkler to sprinkle. But. It was awfully nice of him to say the best to happen. He wanted to recommend it as if we didn't know US fishing for a bonus I think he was because I do sign the checks for the communities that could very well have been it. He was just fishing for a bonus tech news commentary, and then we're going to get right back to your calls, and we do hope you participate on the show anytime at your convenience. Because when you call in you win stuff, thank you. That's that's my best imitation of camera because nobody does it as well as he does. Win Stuff thank you. Right there we have people that say you know what I'm calling in. Because Cameron said to do so, that's good enough that works. After a year's worth of digging Elon Musk's, the boring company has completed the second tunnel for its underground people mover system at the Las Vegas Convention Center. It's keeping in step with an anticipated opening date of January of twenty twenty, one just in time for the annual consumer electronics show during this Chinese electronics show, or at least the plan consumer electronics show. According to the Boring Company, the goal is to provide fast and convenient transportation for convention and trade show attendees across the VC campus, and might and by the way the name of its company is not to suggest that it's uninteresting. Stop Boring. They're boring. The tunnels tunnels see that I thought I'd explain that because when you said he must boring company I'm thinking which one you GonNa talk about not spacex. That's up boring well, and you notice with his three main companies. He kind of has has dominated everything the boring company. They've dominated underground with their task. They've dominated the roads and with SPACEX dominated the skies. Over the world. You don't Tesla was the biggest selling vehicle in California last year. I mean of all of the vehicles made by all the vehicle. Making companies more Tesla's were sold than any others. But right now it takes about fifteen minutes to walk from the convention centers new. Exhibit Hall to the other side of the campus. Something that must company claims it can cut down to a one minute commute. WHOA in the subterranean tunnel system. The boring company plans to carry groups of twelve to sixteen passengers in pods, constructed with modified Tesla Chassis. At speeds of up to one hundred fifty five miles per hour. These apted model, three and Model X. Trams will the capacity of the transport about four thousand visitors per hour. That's and that's very fast, so get whiplash probably. Is If. Does, happen in January and this is really this is probably going to be a bigger attraction than than shows the show floor. Exactly you're going to have to probably wait for three hours to get onto this tram. That's amazing. Yeah, but he's going to do four thousand people in our. Yeah, that's wild. I I'm looking forward to it because if nothing else. I WanNa see that whole. Marvel that he's accomplished. I'm going to go to see his just for this yet. That's good enough, yeah! Go into the halls and see the same crap. We go to show stoppers, and then we'll pick up the time. Okay sounds like a plan. You're with US Danny. We're going to check out the tunnel between the south. Hall and the New West. West Hall West Hall Okay because it does go under the parking lot under the tram the little monorail. They've gotten everything. That's pretty cool, so they've they've completed yet. They done board it. They done board at wow pretty awesome. due to what some called gender bias in medicine very little research has been conducted to help ide- cardiovascular health issues in women. A company called bloomer. Tech is funny that they pick that name for some reason but bloomer. Tek is a startup that has created a small smart Bra. Used to gather data that experts can venues to study the nuances in specific cardiovascular health. I don't think they make a male version of the BRA it's only for females, and then it helps them with their heart health. What would be called the Bro? I. I've seen. You. Totally Lost Gani the control room. I can't think she fell on the floor, laughing so, but that's true would have to be called the Bro Yeah, but in this case they just have a Bra. And? Maybe they're gonNA. Come up with. Maybe you just gave them that idea. Maybe they're going to send you any. Copyright money new courses, but it is kind of cool that they're doing this special and hopefully helping a lot of ladies, yeah. So, as movie, theaters start to reopen around the country AMC theaters says it may not be able to open its doors again. Because of significant revenue losses from the pandemic, and they're the largest in the country. Yeah, they've got a thousand locations across the globe, and they said that they have substantial doubt that it can keep its theaters running yikes. Can you imagine i? Mean I used to love to spend way. Way More money than I ever should have and go to the moving well. That's the thing is what are we going to do if we can't go, spend twenty eight dollars a person to go see a movie I know and if you can't sneak in all the snacks you want, you have to buy them and that costs more than the admission of the movie. That whole experience might be going away. That's terrible I might have to actually stay home and watch a movie. Like! You don't already do that, but we used to always grab cam and some friends and we'd go see the new movie that comes out song. As it was age appropriate for him and have a good time. We made it a movie night to knows the starting to get to liking going to the theater game because they started putting bars in the theaters down here so I could buy a beer before i. go into the movie. SUSPECT THE NEWEST! AMC's up. Up The street had bars, yeah, it was funny. Because the AMC theaters, the street took the space from an old sears that was closed down so now something else is going to have come and take the space of the ANC closed up while they should knock it down and make it a drive in theater. Yes, there, you go Electra Dolphin Stadium. They're not knocking. Doubt all turning into a drive in well occasionally between games of some sort you could probably. Driving during game I think my might be halftime show. Bring in two hundred and thirty cars, and watch a short movie and okay. SECOND HALF IS BEGINNINGS EVERYBODY OUT? I. Don't think that'll work well. That's and that's what somebody else asked me the other day about this whole current events now this all this writings. Does that mean that's halftime for this whole virus? Thing, though yeah, and there are those sure everybody has seen the memes on all the anti social media. Does that mean the pandemic has over. The apparently, there's thousands of people when I saw not social distancing and that was the thing I saw so we're not doing criminal virus anymore. Wow. Interesting. And hopefully you'll find some of the stuff that I've been posting lately. If you follow me on Facebook, twitter instagram, it's all the same at Dave grave lion very easy to find we currently I. Don't follow anybody's anything. I'm not talking to you. Looking at me well, because there's nobody else in the studio, okay fine I won't look at you anymore. I'll just look Danny and control. Hi, Danny! How are you? She's what even back having a good time cheese in when we talk on the radio, we're talking to millions of people in the audience I'm not talking just to you. Good Heavens Point. Five billion dollar lawsuit against Google asserts at the company tracks users online even when they employ crumbs incognito mode. The complaint states that the company collects information from a host of applications like Google analytics Google ad manager website, plug ins and smartphone APPS, so you may think that incognito protects you and you're actually incognito. Apparently not so with this five billion dollar lawsuit. We'll stay on top of it. Let you know what comes of it, but that's interesting. If Google is found guilty of this or civil case, of course, just having to pay then obviously, there was enough evidence and proof that they're not letting you be incognito, and they are taking your information. That's just not right before when you're online. There's no privacy and should never ever trust that you. Tories. How many years have we been saying that on the show is that there is no such thing as privacy anymore if you're online period. No matter what you're doing, just try to be more secure. Don't release information, personal banking, Info, and that kind of stuff, but forget your privacy, no such thing. Reading coffee grounds to tell fortunes is a big deal in Turkey I. Actually remember that the last time I was in Turkey and I thought okay. Maybe I should go. Have Somebody read coffee grounds? Tell my fortune, but it is a big deal. While the custom has been in place for many years, one eccentric entrepreneur has given it a modern twist by moving the fortune telling sessions. Onto a mobile APP. So. Here's what you do users upload photos. Of the grounds from their Daily Cup of coffee. And the APP Bruce up of response what I did. In fifteen minutes or instantly if you agree to sit through an add. Instant, coffee or fifty, I don't drink coffee, but it takes about fifteen minutes to brew coffee I'm guessing ten fifteen minutes whatever. And but you don't get the smell. I do love the the Mel of fresh brewed coffee. That's always been interesting but I. I've never been a fan of the taste so i. don't drink. But that's Kinda bizarre. Your coffee ground, so you take a picture of your coffee grounds. And then it'll. Tell your fortune either in fifteen minutes or instantly if you sit through an. Interesting. Some people are certainly taking advantage of tech and I. Don't blame them for that. Go for it, yeah. Microsoft will reportedly turn to artificial intelligence for optimizing news on MSN OP tonight's or optimizing. I was going to say because you said optimizing and then you talked about being intelligent. I figured out. Unofficial intelligence is very artificial. Okay so what are we optimizing? The News on MSN. And replacing dozens of human workers in the process how Microsoft apparently will not renew the contracts for about fifty news production contractors who were told that they would no longer be needed beyond June thirtieth, the workers are tasked with identifying trending news stories from publishing partners and optimizing content by rewriting headlines or improving accompanying images fulltime news producers who are performing the same functions. We'll be retained, but all contracted news producer jobs were eliminated apparently to make way for artificial intelligence to do this between you start mixing artificial intelligence and news. It's a recipe for disaster. I'm thinking it is so. This is MSN. Yes, who they still around apparently? Nobody's GonNa know anyway so they can replace him with potted plants and I don't think anybody would notice. She's that's kind of bizarre Steve in Lake. Villa, Illinois listens to the free into tomorrow podcasts that you can sign up for as well at into tomorrow Dot Com and we love you. Steve calling it using the free into tomorrow APP. My wife can make Lena buying a two pack a smart plugs I didn't know what I use it for coming to. I`Ma Amoco coffeemaker McKay. REGGAE doesn't really work on. What do you think best used for smart? Plug here? A couple of smart plugs loss for what I could do with these. I think that's very cool. Though that your wife got him for you so and I think it's even more cool that you're trying to justify use for them, so we're here to help you out. I think his wife's made him get them for her. Oh, that could be. In which case where we've got some tips for you Steve the. It's pretty much up to what you need to automate, so it sounds more like a question I. Guess Maybe for your wife if she's the one who wanted them what we can tell you. Is that normally? They're mostly useful for something like a lamp to something simple that you wanna turn on or off usually you'll get more out of them if you can automate something in some way for example like I said. If you plug some lamps into those smart blogs, you might be able to get them to turn on after sunset or. But or only if your home, for example or turn on when you're a block away and getting home, so it's already lit, and you can use it for some other things that are interesting for some users for example to turn on an AC unit. If you have wall, window or split units, but those normally require higher aunt models which aren't very common. You can set just about any unit to control fans, dehumidifiers and other common gadgets. Devices in the kitchen like a coffee maker can be completely automated with a smart plug. You can turn it on in the morning as you're getting ready for the day saving you time. If you're thinking ahead, could also be used for holiday decorations. Making sure they're on at night, so you don't have to remember yourself. Smart played that I plugged my Christmas tree, and I walk in my. My House and I say Alexa turned on the Christmas tree, and it comes on now. Okay, or you could set with a timer to turn, but it makes more sense if you arrive home at different times, and then just tell her to turn it on, or ask her nicely, of course of and it turns on. It's more impressive to anybody. You might be with you as well. Well now. It can also save you money by cutting off any power that's left on standby. Smart plugs can also work with radio, so you can set it to turn on whenever we're on the air for example, so you never miss our show now. You must have been thinking about some uses when she convinced you to buy them. Though so, is there anything that she'd like to automate? Automate or control remotely. If so, that really should be your answer. I think it should be and Steve You'd be do well to keep the wife happy especially since you got the smart plugs now we gave you a whole bunch of ideas, and there are many more. Maybe some others listening have some other tips. How do you use smart plug certainly one of the less expensive ways. To utilize some home. Automation goodies is a smart plug. You know having to get bigger devices or other things. Let us know we'll pass it onto steve on the air. Call us at eight, hundred, eight, nine, nine, into or better yet do it Steve. Did use the free into tomorrow, APP. Patrick was way behind on his irs taxes. I was in way over my head. The total amount ended up being somewhere else just over thirty thousand dollars thirty thousand dollars then the IRS came to collect started getting letter after letter. The lean had been filed against me. They were gonNA basically like hang me completely out to dry. He had to do something. That's when I reached out to OPTIMA tax relief. Patrick's life quickly got a lot easier very easy pretty much. Hands off, you know. They picked up the ball and. And ran with it, and how to go I couldn't believe it. I had to ask like two or three times I saved an incredible amount of money. How does Patrick feel about optima couldn't be happier. They'd definitely helped me. OPTIMA tax relief the best place to call. They're the best in the business. Do what Patrick did and call optima tax relief for a free consultation call, eight, hundred, six, one, nine, thirty, four, twenty, four, eight, hundred, six, one, nine, thirty, four, twenty, four, eight, hundred, six, one, nine, thirty, four, twenty-four. OPTIMA TAX? Are you from California, Illinois, New York Georgia or any of the other thirty nine states that charge state income tax. Does your state claim? You owe them any amount of back taxes or not filed in years? Is your heart pounding? Because you know they're wrong or you just don't have the money. Don't fight the state income tax board alone. The tax doctor is here to help you. The state is much more aggressive than the irs in collecting taxes. They have the power to. To Take your home, your car, your drivers and business licenses even garnish your wages. Freeze your bank accounts and go after your spouse. Solve all your income tax problems permanently and keep more of your hard earned money. Make this one hundred percent guaranteed risk, free call right now. Eight, hundred, two, eight, one, seven, oh, four, eight, eight, hundred, two, eight, one, seven, zero, four, eight, eight, hundred, two, eight, one, seven Oh four eight. That's eight, hundred, two, eight, one, seventy, forty eight. Nothing is more important than protecting your family and property. That's why you should make a free call right now to. The number one smart home services provider in the US. Vivid will make your home safer and more secure with a state of the art system. That's so simple to use vivid smart home. Specialists Provide Award winning monitoring of your system, twenty, four, seven, three, sixty, five to respond to any emergency, even when you can't and with the four point, five star rated vivid, smart home mobile APP control your entire house from anywhere locks cameras security system all at your fingertips on your mobile device, call vivid now and get a free quote, professional installation and full smart home service for as little as two dollars per day win purchaser service agreement required conditions apply call now. Home is a safer home, so protect your family and your property home or business with a given smart home system, call, eight, hundred, six, eight, nine, three, zero, zero, five, eight, hundred, six, eight, nine, three, zero, zero, five. That's eight, hundred, six, eight, nine, three, zero, zero, five, eight, hundred, six, eight, nine, three, zero, zero five. Welcome back into tomorrow. I'm Dave. Grave Line I'm Chris Crave I stay tuned just a few minutes. We'll be chatting with Joe Broadwood. He's the CEO and Co founder of a company called senior there a virtual movie theater they say for watching streaming content HBO on Netflix with friends, so you don't have to worry about AMC going out of business because he's got you covered. Check it out in a couple of minutes here on into tomorrow. Video Games have an awful stereotype of being extremely violent for the most part well, there is one that is wholesome as a baby kitten. Q. The. Animal crossing new. Horizons with this week's into gaming segment. Here's Dani, Gee. Thanks Dave New Horizons was released back in late. March for the Nintendo switch it has sold over five million copies as of late April twenty, twenty, making it the best selling game in the month of March and the second bestseller this year so far. The game playing the simplest terms consists of collecting items and building up your island village activities include collecting bugs, fish fossils, and newly added art for bladders, the curator of the Islands Museum. An crossing is completely customizable. Meaning your avatars Appearance House and exterior are all up for redesign. Clothing paintings face paint the island flag and the island anthem can all be created by the player I just got a copy recently, and all I can say that is very addicting. The Art style music in characters makes you feel all happy and relaxed side, so it's a great gift for anyone. Maybe even dad for father's Day which is coming up in just a few weeks. Don't forget. That's offer into gaming this week I'm Danny g back to you. Dave well. Thank you Danny very cool. And of course you certainly want to stay tuned because Danny also has a cool video at into tomorrow dot, com, do check that out, and you'll see the game play and how? 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Our next guest has a virtual movie theater for you for watching Netflix and HBO with friends. The CO founder and CEO of senior is Joe. Brentwood Joe Welcome into tomorrow. How are you doing great? How are you? I'm doing fine. Thank you very much for. For, spending a couple of minutes with us, you talk about the the virtual movie theater. How is that the case? Tell me what that means with seen. What we've built is a way for people to spend time watching their favorite shows and movies together as if they're on the couch or in in their own movie theater, and it uses a chrome extension to connect you with video chat and synchronize playback. It's really fun so you're actually watching a movie together apart. Yes. As you can imagine at this moment in history is something that a lot of people are very very interested in so we've been working on this for a couple of years, but over the last few months we've seen an incredible surge in interest, because a lot of people can't be in the same place right now and having to way to watch movies shows that. That it is a great antidote to that. That's a good point because if you're like me, I think most people. Are you want to go to the movies with friends with family? You want to experience it together. I've never been able to go to a movie alone even back when we could remember the good old days when we could actually go to a movie. Young they were. Fond Memories, but the fact is that you want to experience it with others and I guess this is the next best opportunity. If you can't have them, come to your house or you. There's because of social distancing being safe and all that. So how but how does it physically work I? Mean you've got a movie going I'm looking at your website. Senior DOT COM and I'm seeing that do. There's two or three or four people. You see their faces and I guess that because they're watching the same movie and people are commenting, or are you sure shing them? Because it's a movie, don't talk what. Yeah! It's a great question so basically what the technology that we built does is it enables people with Netflix so hbo account to synchronize that viewing, so you log into net, and you add the senior extension one second. Just install it from Sina. Dot Com and then you in the virtual space together where you can pick your your favorite show movie to watch on either of those services, and it will ensure. Ensure that everyone is watching it exactly the same time, and it will do the heavy lifting for you, and then enables you to add this layer of video chat and a lot of people use the video chat in very unique ways. Some people knew each other, and you have full control over that, and so you can just see each other reacting to the show as you watch it or the movie. Other people like to watch reruns and you know, go deep on some of the plotlines and discuss them some people just like to to laugh together and use it as a springboard as more casual way to spend time without needing the pressure of constantly having to make conversation, so it's a really really interesting alternative. Zoom and other video chat products that brings all of the enjoyment of the living room, and into this virtual space I like the way you say without the pressure of having to constantly maintain communication with somebody that you're with, but there are those times when you want to just look at each other and what? Did they say data. Did that really happen I mean that's part to me of the movie going experience that you hopefully will one day be able to get back to, but in this case would seen her. You can do today. Yeah, Exactly People WanNa Laugh and cry together. They WANNA share them. We also give the person who's the session. The theater as we call it a virtual remote control, so they can pause the movie for everyone and say Oh my God. Did you just see that kind of stuff? So it's it's. It's a really really awesome way to spend time and sort of. the best content that's out there from the subscription services in a shed environment off. So whoever is the organizer? Right can control that I would drive people nuts because as it is. I paused TV shows, and we discuss things and people go. Would you please on pause? But I could see that and come in handy because again. Maybe that's a reaction or Didn't see that coming. You know those kinds of things. Make it a little bit more enjoyable, but yeah, don't ruin the movie by constantly pausing it, but I can see that that can be handy. Yeah, what we're also working on right now is something. That's a little bit bigger than this, so you know having some friends come together pretty likely that you're going to be able to talk to each other and figure out the rules that you want to have in that in that session. We're also enabling people who have bigger audiences, so they may be youth clubs or people who were in school, but now can't be together all well. Maybe even someone who's got a big passion for the movie to bring a Big Room of folks together where they they're the ones that sort of retain that control, but if it's just you and a couple of friends, you can give the remote just someone else if they get frustrated and. I like that okay fine. Then you control it. Although, the other good thing is to. Somebody can raise their hand. I've got to run to the restroom. Okay pause, let's take a quick intermission and and get regrouping sex Linda something. We've been working on this twenty eight, seeing a prior to the pandemic, the majority of us as people in long distance relationships, or until the duty, or some reason that away from home, but now what we're seeing is that you know because everyone, even in the same communities maybe spend time together like they used to their all these really creative exciting new ways to shack, great TV, and so that's why we're enabling with Sina and I'm. I'm glad that you mentioned the military as well so perhaps folks are distant away and yet now the family can watch a movie or a show with mom or dad, who's serving our country somewhere around the world and I think that makes it even better how? How do the companies like? HBO and Netflix react to this. Do you have to have some kind of deal with them? Because now you're sharing their copyrighted content, right? It's a great question. We actually shot that content, and this is a critical thing that we were very respectful of when we built senior. So you need a an account to be able to join a session with someone else you need need away, and if you're in the same household, but you have a that's. That's fine you can. You can share the same account, but. The idea is that you bring your own account, and that makes it fully for copyright, and we've actually worked closely with HBO on on the integration with that, so it's a really really great way to respect the people making great shows and movies, and still shabby enjoyment of them in these. Difficult Times Gotcha so. If you're using senior, you want to share the experience. Then everyone involved has to either be a netflix subscriber or HBO Subscriber in this case. Because as well, that doesn't require subscription so We've grown a lot over the last couple of months in people right, too. Wouldn't it be great if we could what he wouldn't? It be great if we could watch the service. That doesn't require a subscription and we're. We're listening very Catholic to that working hard on bringing this. Is what I would imagine. Some things that a lot of people are concerned about is is maybe a church service and they wish they could all attend well, then they can all the ten this way you know only so many can fit in the church because of social distancing, so maybe the rest of the congregation can get together, and people can still hear each other singing, or or whatever offering a sign of. Virtually. and. We would love to hear from you so if you're listening and you think of. A use case for this that is unique to these to these very very new and they. Sometimes we're in Please do email me. Just go to senior in the context of Button dot com, and we would love to connect with you an and explore ways to to help bring your communities together so great example doing now well and speaking of the current times. How's the entertainment industry? Jody think here evolving to respond to these times, or are they great question day? Obviously movie is in most most places are closed right now, so people have really having to think about how to bring the best of Hollywood, entertainment to the homes and This is just one way to do that, you know if you look at some of the the business updates from the streaming services. They've seen incredible growth over the last couple of months, people of really doubling down on having access to the content that they enjoy the most from the comfort of their homes, and so this is where we really thought we could be a good complement of that by enabling. This sort of social experience on top of that. And of course, a lot of folks have loved to do I have with a bunch of friends and family movie night periodically. So is there any lag or or any any sync issues with with senior I mean. How does that work if you've got an? And how many people can we have on at once? Great Question the the best way to tackle the The issue of it's inevitable that there'll be a tiny bit of lag, but if you wear headphones so senior as chrome extension, you can use it on a laptop or desktop computer right now. We're looking at ways to bring it to to the living room, but if you are on your computer and you're watching with. With someone else the best way to think about. That is to plug in headphones, and it just means that you reduce any echo of kickback from a couple of seconds I was sync, but you know technology is really designed to keep synchronization happening and to sort of keep you thin at the same moment in time, so you should have a really awesome experience. I would think the next logical version would be to integrate with so many smart TV's that are available now, and we can download APPs on most of the TV's, and we can do things so I would like to see senior on my smart TV, instead of having to worry about a laptop or desktop or otherwise. We're on the same page day that it takes a little bit more integration what to to sort of bring an experience like this, but you know we're seeing the industry. Really Start to change evolve and think about what we call. The Remote Co viewing is the technical term for us, and so we think it's only a matter of time before you know the platform owners and the connected TV manufacturers to enable API's and other sort of technological ways to be synchronized when you're not in the same room, and I'm thinking date night, boy, what a an opportunity there! Especially, if it's a long distance dating, not just social distancing. Somebody who's halfway around the country and yet you can still have date night and enjoy a movie together. Yeah, and we've had a lot of testimonials from people who have really been able to use senior to to to kind of rekindle their relationships with people to key to maintain their relationships, and just two days ago, we heard from someone that said they wouldn't be in a relationship if it wasn't for this product and the ability to to watch someone so. So you're you're totally right that the relationship angle here. The community on there's a lot of great ways to bring people together butch right now using like uh-huh, and of course the important question. Is there a cost for senior? How does that work right now? We we have fronting the cost, so you know it. It obviously costs for us to provide this service and we. We're putting money into evolving it, but we are giving it to. To people for Free and it zero down when when it comes to sort of people using it, and that's because we really want to invest long term in the technology and use this as an opportunity to really illustrate to the broader industry, because as a lot of opportunity here down the road. We think we can work with studios and we think we can. What with services sort of helped them market some of that content? That will be a great. Great Revenue Opportunity for but right now as a consumer. This is completely free, so I would really encourage you to try it good. Yeah, it sounds to me like kind of a virtual couch. Where maybe zoom meets a Netflix's and you have that experience together, but it's not just a meeting or some gathering or a chat. You're actually enjoying the same content together, and do you expect that it'll go beyond Netflix and hbo there so many other sources out there? We really started with those for for a number of reasons, just around bringing great quality content for people to really give them the opportunity to seize those incredible archives and use that as a as a springboard, but yeah, we are absolutely committed to bringing this to more services, and we're very close to making some announcements in that regard to what. Terrific well, we'll stay tuned and you let us know and we'll share with our audience, but welcome to the virtual movie theater. We invite you to visit senior dot com, and of course we'll click you there with a nice link when you visit into tomorrow. Dot Com Joe thanks for spending a few minutes with us and continued good luck. Keep US informed my pleasure. Thank you, Dave and look forward to seeing you will in the virtual movie theater da by all means. Bring the Popcorn I'll bring candy there we go. Joe Brentwood is the CO founder and CEO of senior DOT COM. We'll bring you further into tomorrow I'm Dave Grave Line right here on the advanced media network. Airlines have just reduced their prices even more book thirty days in advance and save big. Want the absolute lowest prices on your airline tickets then call the low cost. Airlines travel hotline right now for prices so low. We can't publish them anywhere. The only way to access our low rates and save up to seventy percent is to call. Save hundreds on your vacation tickets by calling right now. You can fly anywhere in the. The world and paid discount prices on your airline tickets book flight today to London Paris, Madrid, or anywhere else you WanNa go and pay a lot less guaranteed call the international travel department right now at low cost airlines, eight, hundred, four, one, nine, two, three, three, five, eight, hundred, four, one, nine, two, three, three, five, eight, hundred, four, one, nine, two, three, three, five. That's eight, hundred, four, one, nine, twenty, three, thirty five. What if people with type one diabetes had the power to manage their condition without finger sticks to always know their glucose levels, and where they're heading with just a glance at their smart device to customize alerts and alarms to help keep them in range. All this knowledge powered a small wearable, introducing the decks G. Six make knowledge your superpower for a list of compatible smart devices visit decks, com dot com slash compatibility. If your glucose alerts readings from the Jesus did not match symptoms. Their expectations blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions. Do you owe ten thousand dollars or more on at least two federal student loans, then you may qualify for new programs offered by the Department of Education these programs can reduce your interest lower your payments and possibly qualify you for loan forgiveness. If you have ten thousand dollars or more, and at least two federal student loans, and currently not in school, you may qualify for one of these programs. Call now to check your eligibility student loan advisors are standing by to help you determine if you. you qualify for these new programs. They can help you. Reduce your interest lower your payment and even forgive a portion of your student loan debt. Take control of your financial future. Make this free five minute free call now to nationwide student loans and learn how you can reduce your student loan debt, eight, hundred, eight, one, seven, two, nine, three, nine, eight, hundred, eight, one, seven, two, nine, three, nine, eight, hundred, eight, one, seven, two, nine, three, nine, eight, hundred, eight, one, seven, two, nine, three nine. This is an important announcement for anyone who wants health insurance. Even if you missed the deadline right now, you can get the health insurance you and your family need from top insurance providers, even if you have pre existing conditions or no insurance at all plus benefits, health insurance toll free number has been extended to help anyone's health insurance coverage now or if you need a better plan or a lower price, called plus benefits health insurance now at eight, hundred, three, three, two, one, nine, nine, three. The call is one hundred percent free, and that help is real call eight, hundred, three, two, one, nine, nine, three. That's eight, hundred, three, hundred, one, nine, nine three. Hey this is giants winner from the Turner Country. Comics podcast. WanNa wish Dave Grave Line into tomorrow, a happy twenty fifth year on the air. That's great congratulations and wish you twenty five more great years. All the best now you're trying to kill US twenty five more years. John in Toronto. Ontario, thank you so much. We appreciate the kind wishes, and if you want to send us a little congratulatory note, feel free, eight, hundred, eight, nine, nine into or use the audio option on the free into tomorrow. APP, I'm Dave Grave, line, I'm Chris Craven. This portion of into tomorrow is brought to you in part by stream, guys dot com. They provide the twenty four seven stream of into tomorrow, not only on. On our website at tomorrow, DOT, com, but free into APP that we always talk about Oh. Yes, they do very much, so you can hear the last seven weeks. Worth of shows anytime like if you're having trouble falling asleep whenever we can help you, it's their. Check it out at into tomorrow. Dot Com! We get the occasional email. We love it. If you at least tell us where you're writing from and how you hear the show, but Willie didn't do that, but we're still address his email. I have a new automobile that does not have a CD player. I have a portable CD player that has three point five millimeter connection Chord. However, that doesn't seem to be any way to put this into the car audio system. Does this mean I need to purchase another portable CD player with a special USB connection? Well, really, there are cables like one you described, but they're usually having very different uses from the one you're describing so you may find that they. They don't work for what you're trying to do. If this car is modern enough to have ditched CDs that had probably has Bluetooth built in, and that's a much safer way to go now you can buy very inexpensive. Bluetooth adapters online that will take that three point five millimeter input and turn it into a wireless signal that your car's receiver should be able to pick up and use a good reason to look at Bluetooth adapters that it's a generic solution. Solution. which is helpful when you're trying to incorporate CD's, which are probably no longer interesting devices to cater to directly the reason we say that is that. If you look at a CD album sales by year, you'll find them. In the year. Two thousand, nine, hundred and fifty million albums were sold, but two thousand and ten that number had dropped a tutor and fifty three million last year. The number didn't even get to forty four million. Wow, now as of. Of Late Twenty nineteen vinyl sales were expected to suppress CD sales, so don't expect a lot of CD centric tech to come out anytime soon now another solution could be transferring all the songs from your CD collection to your phone once transferred. Then you can access your catalog anywhere including your car gap. Hope that helps you, Willie, let us know what you ended up doing. Because it will help other listeners as well and let's meet at into tomorrow Dot Com. Attention, do you owe ten thousand dollars or more in tax debt? Millions of Americans like you owe the irs more than ten thousand dollars interfacing Leans Bank, levies, wage, garnishments, penalty, abatements, and other irs enforcement actions newly-authorized debt. Forgiveness programs allow you to settle your debts for less than ever before. Do you owe the irs ten thousand dollars or more in back taxes? If so then call our tax settlement helpline now you work hard for your money protected, protect your assets and protect your lifestyle to by calling our tax settlement. Help Line our network of tax. Professionals will fight for you. They have helped save their clients. Millions of dollars over. Over the years and can help you save to call tax settlement helpline today to see if you qualify to pay a fraction of what you owe, don't stress over your unpaid tax problems any longer call our tax settlement helpline now at eight, hundred, eighty, three, zero, nine, one, one, zero, eight, hundred, eighty, three, zero, nine, one one zero that is eight, hundred, eight, three, zero, nine, one, one zero. This is a guided meditation on parenting. Take a deep breath in and let go of the time you and your son played basketball, and you attempted to slam dunk or when you hit that Pinata into your neighbor's yard. Let it go. You don't have to be perfect to be a perfect parent. Thousands of teens in foster care who don't need perfection. They need you for more information on how you can adopt visit adoptuskids dot org a public service announcement from the US Department of Health and Human Services adopt US kids and the Ad Council. Birthday parties help build confidence in kids. Yeah, did you know that giving kids less sugar before bedtime helps them sleep better. Oh, totally! Did you know that friendly kids have more friends? Everybody knows that hey guys. Did you know that most people think they're using the right car seat for their kid, but they're not. I didn't know that. Parents who really know it all know for sure that their child is in the right car seat at the right age and size visit safercar dot, Gov Slash therightseat to make sure your child is protected brought to you by the national. Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Ad Council. Stadium. said that me down here Oh. What are you a yellow booger? I'm a banana slug, Steven, what are you doing in my room? Adventure, it's been a long time since we've had an adventure in the forest, menteur princes the forest last year I'm a slug Steven. It took me a long time to get here. You're right. I should get out. Young forest is not that far away. Hey, mom, come to the forest where the more adventurous you lives, check out, discover the forest dot org for cool places nearby brought to you by the US. Forest, service and the Ad Council. Single Ember from a wildfire can travel over a mile. Your home is better protected when your whole community is prepared. Visit fireadapted dot org to get started. A public service message brought to you by the US Forest Service and the Ad Council. My name is Dale Posinski I volunteer with United Way to help the homeless in my community learn computer skills and daily basic resume i. don't just wear the shirt I live it. Give advocate volunteer live united, good live united. Dot Org brought to you by United Way and the Ad Council. It's rocket man Dan. He Regulations on twenty five years. I can't believe it's been nine years since you and I met in London for that jetpack flight, and I've been listening ever since and I'm looking for the next fifty. Fifty Mike Gosh some people tell them this whole. Another twenty five, and that's a lot fifty well. Thank you Dan Dan's London Texas. He is the rocket man. Yes, we met years ago at Trafalgar. Square in London as he was flying in doing a game promotion for new game coming out very cool, and then we went and had breakfast together Nice Guy. Leads what we'd be talking about. Fifty Years Tech, wise. First of all. You'd be talking about how I'm not even here anymore. Because I'm already a hundred for crying out, loud technology will dancing. You'll still be here. She'll just be in a form. Yeah, I need a break. That's what I need. Anyway. I'm dave grave line. You Chris Grave Line in this portion of into tomorrow is brought to you in part by Hughes Net. Net America's number one choice for satellite Internet text radio to thirty, five thousand and get more info again. Text the word radio, two, three, five, zero, zero, zero among the cool things for giveaway. If you've not yet done your taxes, you know you've got now to July fifteenth, so you have time, but you might need an online code good for any of the turbo. Turbo tax products, we've got a couple of codes that we can share with you. Just let us know if you need one from urban armor gear. We've got some silicone straps for the Apple Watch Sandisk sent dual drive USB, three point, one and type C for smartphones, tablets and computers for giveaway Oh access sent several my first instant camera for kid all those fun. Fun and Audio Technica With Their Bluetooth wireless ear buds with a really lovely charging case, no promises, no guarantees, but if you'd like any of those when you call in a participate, be sure and mentioned that and Danny G and her team will be sure to try their best to get one of those things to you meantime. Join US at into tomorrow DOT, com. It's Heidi. Summers, health and wellness expert with your local health update I get so many emails and calls about CBD, the incredible oil from the hemp plant that's being used to provide relief to millions for joint discomfort, inflammation and nagging injuries. It's the most talked about alternative breakthrough in years. The CD product I always recommend comes from CBD labs. The gold standard of CBD. CBD, labs, oil goes to work fast to relieve your discomfort and deliver the results. One thought nearly impossible without a prescription. This powerful oil is not marijuana and contains no thc the ingredient that gets you high. CBD Labs Oil has also been used to help thousands. Get a great night's sleep. Don't be fooled by all the imitators call now and find out how to get a free bottle while supplies last to get your free bottle of CBD CD oil, call, eight, hundred, six, five, zero, nine, eight, one four. That's eight, hundred, six, five, zero, nine, eight, one four. Get your free bottle for a limited time call. Call now eight, hundred, six, five, zero, nine, eight, one, four, eight, hundred, six, five, zero, ninety, eight, fourteen. We encourage you to participate in the Gift Card Challenge just by gift. Card from one of your favorite local businesses use it when things get back to normal war, the Iraq star and give it to someone working on the front lines to keep us safe. Learn more at Gift Card Challenge Dot Org. You're listening to the hot land. Use Feed Radio Network at live dot, heartland fee dot com. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by. Follow us on Facebook, twitter and INSTAGRAM's. This is the liberty. Beat your daily source for news and activists updates produced in partnership with the L., S. Network, and listeners like you. Online at SNL S NETWORK DOT com. I'm McMurdo with your latest edition at the Liberty beat. Golden starting at one thousand, seven hundred forty dollars silver at eighteen dollars and seventy seven cents and big point is starting at ten thousand sixty dollars. Today's gold silver and bitcoin prices are brought to you by brave botanical. high-quality him and CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Brava botanical is activists known and mission driven. The liberty in botanical 's believe so strongly in the power of freedom were giving it away for free. Just go to liberty. beat dot news slash recreate them. This is the liberty beat at SNL s network DOT com. In the News, the Kentucky National Guard fired live ammunition a crowd while enforcing the recently imposed curfew in the very early hours of Monday morning leaving at least one person dead, they might unleashed reports. Incident took place just after midnight according to Louisville. Metro police chief Steve Conrad, who said that the city's police were sent away parking lot to break up a crowd along with the National Guard. The police and the National Guard claim, they were shot at during the altercation, but they've given no proof to support those claims. Meanwhile amid racial unrest across the nation president trump on Monday declared himself the president of law and order and threatened to deploy the United States military to American cities to quell a rise of violent protests. Earlier he spoke to governors on a video teleconference with law enforcement and national security officials telling me state leaders. They have to get much tougher criticizing their responses. Ever wonder where we find all the news report right here on the liberty. Meet visit s DOT news to get. The world's most censored media published all in one place save yourself from the endless time spent searching for reliable tentative media. Absent ls news makes a quick and easy. No apps no Click Bait just roll headlines Twenty four hours a day. Visit SNL, s DOT news and get informed today without the corporate media span. Your news now continues George Floyd, who died after being choked by Minneapolis Police Officer Derek? Shelvin last Monday succumb to as fixation as a result show. WTN's actions. That's according to an independent autopsy ordered by his family. The Free Thought Project report. The findings of the autopsy carried out by Medical Examiners Dr. Michael Bayden Dr Alicia Wilson differ from those of the Hennepin County Minnesota medical examiner who examined Floyd's body before chauvel was charged with murder on Friday. Floyd's apparent murder shocked the nation with a video, showing the last agonizing eight minutes of his life, triggering protests and riots across the US. Nearly a week later, the protests have escalated into full blown anarchy, looting and arson. People in a number of international cities violated bans on large gatherings over the weekend to show solidarity with protests against police brutality that have exploded in at least one hundred forty cities across the United States. The free. Thought Project reports political leaders overseas condemned the killing of George. Floyd, who died after now former Minneapolis officer Derek Chauve impressed his knee into Floyd's neck for over eight minutes, while the man was unarmed and handcuffed, and as onlookers pleaded, which opened to stop. An estimated fifteen hundred people in Berlin. March Sunday a day after more than two thousand people gathered outside the US embassy where they chanted black lives, matter and help pictures of Floyd. In England officials, Friday denounced the arrest of CNN correspondent Omar Jimenez and his camera crew, as they reported on the protests in Minneapolis Michelle Bachelet the High Commissioner for human. Rights at the United Nations called on the United. States, to take serious action to win police killings of civilians, which happened nearly one thousand one hundred times in two thousand nineteen. Support for the liberty is brought to you by the homestead you rope. The homestead guru is educational website offering tips, tools, News, stories and commentary on everything home setting. Topics include green homes gardening animal husbandry. Do it. Yourself home remedies. Alternative Energy Survival ISM schooling and more. Those details found online at the homestead Docu. This is the liberty powered by the S. and L. S. network at SNL S NETWORK DOT com. I'm Mick Murrow. Reporting for the liberty beat reminding you spread liberty with a smile. Welcome into tomorrow with Dave grave line the Interactive Radio Network Program with the latest in high tech products and services and the experts who bring them to you. This is into tomorrow. Here's Dave grave line. It's our twenty fifth year bringing you further into tomorrow. Thanks for tuning in I'm Dave grave line? It's the weekend of Friday. June fifth twenty twenty, absolutely delighted to have you with us for your weekly technology auditory gem, one of our listeners called to set a while back. I like to use it periodically here in our Miami. Studios with. Chris Grave Line and the Control Room Danny G. WE'VE got Let me say. New. York, I don't want to forget anybody I'm counting on. My fingers. rushmo in South Beach Kim in Coconut Creek Beth in Naples. The team gathered round to do all the necessary research. Whatever's needed to bring you into tomorrow and answer your questions. Solve your digital dilemmas. It's what we do, and of course the team can include you wherever you are. Because all you have to do is call and share a tip for our listeners. Dad Very true and you get prizes. Win Prizes when you call in. WHAT'S THE MANTRA? Call in when stuff? Thank you okay I just WANNA! Make sure you're paying attention. To have Danny Lean in and do that. From the Control Room Mike once in awhile to just to have more voices in there with the mantra, and if you really like winning prizes, you'll want to stay tuned next week. That's all I'm GONNA say go. Yeah, we. We can't anything more about. Ask Give it all away. Oh don't want to do that. You don't want to tell everybody that this cool Hudson giveaways. See. Now, you're saying too much. However, those that receive the free into tomorrow once a week tech newsletter. They're going to know I, and they are going to be able to do some cool things so just they are now. Yeah. I guess they are now I've that cat out of the bag as well? So just be be tuned with the baby kitten that from the into gaming segment last hour. And if you miss that, be sure to check how Danny Jeez. Baby kitten game. You can tell by the third hour of the show. All rules are out the window. I know rules. All practical anything is out the window and here we are Cleveland. You'd never know it sometimes tech, news and commentary before we get back to your calls, researchers from Stanford University have devised a way for hundreds of drones to use the bus or trams in an effort to redesign how packages are distributed in cities. Should such a solution ever scale, it could reduce delivery, van, congestion and energy usage while extending the distance, a drone can travel to deliver A. Basically drones are going to take the bus. They're gonNA take the bus. Not Try to lift the bus in ring it though full of stuff. Right on top of the city buses. Really how nice researchers say using public. Transportation Kim increase a drones rains up to three hundred sixty percent beyond travel with flight alone wait. Are they going to use public transportation for free? I don't know to have to pay. Everyone else as I'm sure they'll pay okay, but just the fact that you never thought of basically the drone can sort of fly to a bus. Stop sort of park itself on top of the bus and use that to get closer to its destination. So there's not using its. It's batteries or something. Yeah, and they say that Stanford System could handle up to two hundred drones delivering up to five thousand packages. The network is made for cities with up to eight thousand stops in experiments were conducted specifically in San Francisco in Washington DC. That's gotta be amazing to watch, though if a bus gets to an area where there. There are a lot of delivery. Say Downtown or something, and you see thirty or so drones lifting off at the same time that's gotta be freaky and not stand being able to test in San Francisco, but can you test all those drones in a city like Washington DC with all that security. That's going to be all I know well, no fly zones and everything boy. I could see it now. But. agent it was just flying on the other side of the white. House to deliver over there, nope. That's why it was shot down. Oh, well then and the package obliterated. Oh Great! It was mom's favourite dress or It's just weird, but it's going to be interesting to see so. Do Follow up on that and let's see. We can't find some video at some point. Let's post it I think that'd be kind of neat to this week. One log in a leader in identity and access management released the results of an international study of five thousand remote workers, showing that during covert nineteen corporations are often footing the hardware bill for employees entertainment. And it could be a huge cybersecurity risk as well. US remote employees actually used work devices to access adult entertainment sites. What more than any other country? Increasing their risk of phishing and malware from unsavory sites US workers forty five percent of them are three times more likely to have given their work passwords to child or spouse. Their Work Password. Compared to other countries like the UK it only thirteen percent and France at only nine percent. Remote workers even more concerning thirty percent of those surveyed admitted to having an online account compromised during this time with ten percent of these failing to even change their password afterward. So, they knew the recount, their work account working from home was compromised didn't even change the password. Ten percent of the folks said Nah whatever h work. If you change the password, don't just like at a one to the end of it or something right? Yeah, you went from Password Password one I know that's not appropriate at all. We remind people all the time to be a whole lot safer than that. Yeah, my ex wife was famous for that. Because we like the banking, you'd have to change the password every so often have forces so you. You should have password and then the next time you just at the end the next time changed it to and then three that she probably to this day still does that even with her third husband, so you could probably make some money him. Get some money transferred back to your account. Yeah, good luck with that, but luckily I don't use my work laptop here for questionable sites it home. History. You'll see a lot of barring garden how to videos and. that. You're that you're doing on your work laptop. Yes, I'm sorry. Can I not use my work laptop to find out how to pollinate flowers? No, no use your phone and I don't mean that in any kind of A. You know subconscious way I mean I'm actually pollinating flowers. Yes, I know man if he's taking a facebook break these days, but if you follow Chris on facebook and Danny Do, you should no. No not pushing anything right now. Anyway. Yeah true, but he posts his flowers having sex. I mean he does because he takes the male flower and the female flower, and he talks about what has to happen in order to pollinate properly, and it's like I've heard him talk about more things than I ever cared to know about gardening. Because he suddenly sprouted green thumb well, how did something with all this time? Extra time spent at home. You can only clean the house so many times you could spend time doing more research for the company. Working on stuff for US producing more great content for our audience. Go ahead here. You say no to that. So the Tech News and commentary. Uber is adding a pay by the hour. Personal driver like service during the period of something. Business. Oh. Nice now. The San Francisco based Tech Company launched Uber. Hourly as a way to book a driver for fifty dollars an hour. The driver is all yours during that time, and you can make as many stops as you need. Groceries pick up laundry and one other errands without having to request a new car at each destination. You can request a driver for up to eight hours, and you'd book your trip the same as always keen your destination and view right options I. Guess, that's kind of a good idea. Though if it worked for some people the UBER thing anyway. Of course, this was all before uber was even. Make sense, but now what are they calling? Uber referred the Dour Huber hourly. Okay well, let us know if anyone listening tries that. How does it work out for you? But you know what fifty dollars an hour with maximum of eight hour. That's four hundred dollars if. The whole day. And what if you get a driver that you don't particularly like? Cut Our shores. There you go, okay, we're done. Bring me home and then get another one. Yeah, and see how that goes well. The expansion of five g technology may breathe new life into virtual, augmented and mixed reality gear by overcoming inconvenience and expense. QUALCOMM is touting head mounted ex. Our viewers that leverage five G. Connectivity with smartphones, while Microsoft says it will add five G. links to its headset. The Hollow Lens to Mr So more and more people are paying attention to five G. as more five G's coming into the business into the market onto the market. What have you so stay tuned for that? You might learn a few more things and get some additional advantages. A new feature will let facebook users curate their profiles, leading them hide old posts that they may no longer be comfortable with or maybe a little embarrassed about sharing their all connections. Called manage activity, the new tool is ideal for times of transition like entering the job market or leaving an old relationship behind. In an announcement facebook, said we WANNA make it easy for you to curate your presence on facebook and more accurately reflect who you are today. Yeah. Users can trash or archive posts in bulk or individually post. Move to trash will stay there for thirty days. In case, users change their minds. Archive material remains visible to a user, but not their facebook friends or the public. The new feature is currently only available in facebook's mobile APP. Wow interesting only in the mobile APP there so you can't do that where you have more screen space on your desktop laptop. And be able to make more sensitive things you want to look at and maybe archive trash or otherwise, so I look back at your facebook life and there's some things you know little embarrassed about. You can go back in high, but I don't embarrass easily at all anymore. WHO's GonNa go back and look at you know ten years ago on on someone's time anyway. Let someone like you. Who has all this time when you're not gardening facebook anymore while that's true. Right now, but I probably won't be backed by even by next week show, but we'll see you're taking a break. You haven't decided how long break yet. Knowing. You signed back in, and then you'll signed back out again. Using hadn't changed same nonsense catch. It might sound counter intuitive, but researchers say the. Heat of Mercury might play a role in creating the ice at the planet's Poles. which I know sounds very odd, doesn't it? Protons from the sun hit Mercury soil, making minerals that the surface heat helps release creating hydrogen and water molecules that make their way to the polls. They freeze. Interesting I think so, if you into following the planets and what's going on there? It's cool that we've know this kind of stuff. Mercury's not around the corner. You know its way out there. It's a little jaunt if We get your early to get you. They're not within eight hours. Maybe we'll have to rally next SPACEX rocket. There's other things, too. That are complicating, but that's kind of cool to say that. The heat is helping with the cool. Very Cool Yeah? With reports of no Prime Day sale happening this summer due to the coronavirus pandemic. Amazon is planning another event this month. The retailing giant says it is planning quote big style sale for June in a statement Amazon said the big style sale is slated to take place later this month and will include seasonally relevant deals from both established and smaller fashion brands. Amazon did not specifically specify the exact date of the sale, but there are reports of the company notified. Sellers at the sale will begin on June twenty second. Out If. You're the kind to buy clothing I guess on Amazon will be a big sale later. This of clothing usually period. Gifts, I wear a shirt. Somebody gifted Mir's a hate shoveling, but I hate clothes shopping worse although I have thought about trying out there Amazon wardrobe thing where apparently you can order multiple sizes of something you you get them. Try them on and return. What doesn't fit which makes sense because that's you know you go buy clothes. You have to try them on. Yeah, I, don't like. Try and Stefan, but sometimes even have to try things on, so you don't like trying stuff on at your own house exactly. I don't I don't not a fan of fitting rooms and or anything either. That's why I usually don't shop for clothes, but you know I know my basic sizes. If I see something that looks Nice I don't have a shirt like that. I may grab it and if it doesn't fit fine, bring it back. It Up I. think that might have a bit of potential. But what about have you ever used? One of these APPs that does a three D you? And Use you get sizes? And then they actually put the shirt on you and. All virtually and then you decide if it looks good or to those genes look good on your so researchers say they can control behavior in.

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Joe Lycett

I Weigh with Jameela Jamil

1:03:34 hr | 9 months ago

Joe Lycett

"UNSPOILED is back for season two, Paul and amy tackle the one hundred, and now they're making their own list starting with back to school movies. Check out the first episode on mean girls. Right. Now on Stitcher Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. Is Jamilla Mel. If you want to listen to I way without ads and support me and the show directly the only way to do that is by signing up for stitcher premium just go to stitch a premium dot com or the premium tab, and you'll stitch up and sign up with the Promo Code I way to get a free month stitcher premium you'll get free listening I way and all your favorite. Shows and you'll be directly supporting me on the show and I. Love It. When you do that that stitcher premium dot Com Promo Code I way for a free month of premium listening. Thank you. It won't take long to figure out that I just think differently than other people. There Stephen Dubner and that's my FREAKONOMICS FRIEND AND CO author Steve Levin I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena, Huey behavior weird circumstances, but Lebed is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called people I mostly admire and debuts on August twenty I subscribe now on Stitcher Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of Iway Jamile. I hope you're well, I'm fine. I'm feeling very grateful and safe and frayed because California is in real trouble. This is where I've been spending my lockdown I I mean not only we having all sizes kicked by covert but now there is a fire cluster fuck happening across the state. There is something I think three, hundred, five, thirty of which committed to be quite serious and there was a fire NATO last week which sounds made up but it isn't it's a fucking tornado with fire in it. So it's pretty heartbreaking just to know that after everything that this country and the city and the state has already been through to know that there's just more ahead when people are already just going through so much. Just please wherever you still have feel. So grateful for it practice gratitude and also anything you can spare. Let's all join forces to give to those in need I mean all around the world of course but right now, those who are losing their homes at rapid speed in California. With all of the the sadness and horror in the world right now. I. Do feel like it is important that we are able to access some sort of light and joy, and that's why while this podcast is about something quite serious, which is mental health and shame trauma etc. I try to inject as many humorous people into like possibly can and today's guest is no exception. He is a friend of mine he is extremely funny extremely interesting and insightful and completely unique. So unique that and he doesn't actually know this I can't believe i. didn't tell him when we were sitting down together but. All of the good parts of Johnny the. I'm pretty sure I copied from this person. He was definitely part of my inspiration for the things I love about Tony because I had to create from scratch and the things that I hate about her I copied from some people in the UK who account name because I'm still friends with them on facebook anyway I I'm so excited for you to get to know Joe Joe's had such an extraordinary rise in the comedy industry. So so a wonderful wonderful TV host Serbs, Hutch, a frank and hysterical young voice. He has also been through something extremely traumatic. This is so unexpectedly, he lost his best friend earlier this year just before lockdown not to cove it to something else that he'd been suffering with for a while and he's had to go through this grief period alone in lockdown and I think a lot of people out there can probably. Relate to having to sit in that grief during the moment where there's no distraction, there's no way to escape it. You just have to sit in it and so joe talks to me about grief at length, and it's also wonderful to hear a man talking about his emotions like that and what it's like to lose someone like to lose a friend but just generally, it feels so timely to have that difficult conversation and he really bad his whole soul sometimes in very funny and disgusting ways but also and very moving ways. We talked about so many different things Iot it cetera comedy his his. Truly. Bizarre form of activism that is actually highly effective and very, very entertaining. I'm not to say more because he should just get to know him and after you've listened to this episode I, strongly suggest you make a cup of tea sit down and youtube him for about eleven hours, which is what I do whenever I miss him. So without further ado, please enjoy. The. Joe. Joe Lisette. Welcome to I way. How are you? I'm really good. How are you I'm right. It's just so nice as your face it's been years how hot you think I am. I think Super Hot I was just thinking I've had like, let's find out. Hang on. Okay. I'm thirty, seven point one. Why isn't that? Close Not Looks is is normal. You'll under I think your temperatures. This is great sent to some grey yet to censor. Centipede. Thirty seven point one I think is just short of fever. APPs I'm slightly I'm slightly overheating when I've had an APP wheels hop doll just before you spoke to me. Tall Indian food to your Indian friend. I was thinking my way just had a. Other, Indian feats other. To steny carrier spos-, mice curious. Exactly. It's all just carry. All of it at all of it, I was thinking on the way here about the moment that we actually became friends and I think it, I can crystallize it down to a single moment of you and I were having dinner together. It was like a friend state. It was one of the houses the Soho houses I think short. we were sitting opposite each other, and it was so loud and packed in there that I could not love normally get the waiters attention in order for us to get the bills. So we could leave and so in a moment of complete panic balked are him. Yeah. The one sound that would get his attention is thinking why the fuck is there a dog in this restaurant and then immediately got the bail on you look at me with. That told me we can be friends for. I think. It was so unexpected I didn't announce it. I just gave one clean. I actually forgotten that. I can I'm back there in that chair. And I'm sure it had some sort of Indian cuisine on occasion as well. Probably probably and. Yet. I only do it them just to prove that I'm not a racist. Actively Racist. I was so thrown back by it it was. Ridiculous thing to do. You literally pops away yeah. No rude way just please pay some attention to me way. You getting agitated I can remember watching sort of. Flailing about sort of starting to get his attention and Gosh, that is annoying particularly when you're in somewhere like Sarah. So wherever we will shortage house, you've paid membership there to be there you feel like you should get better service than I needed to to go home and he wouldn't look at me. So I walked a win it did work it was an effective strategy. So. Anyone out there who needs to figure out if we have a go to restaurants ever again by Golden, tactic? How you typing lockdown, you will write you look. Great. Yeah. I'm quite well at the moment. I am. Of like everyone still struggle with had a nice time I worked. My absolute itself before lockdown kicked in and I was looking forward anyways having some time off and then suddenly the whole well just stopped. Oh. Okay. And so what I realized because the fans that I. was suffering with them this overweight anxiety beforehand and myself and everyone that I know it's sort of put it down to being. I'm just working too much and actually I think part of why I am found the exotic lifted in lockdown was because I didn't have to hang out with loads of the paper. I would normally have hung out with not to slack off my friends and family but I realized that actually I just a spend a lot time just saying oh. Yes, I'll go for dinner. Oh. Yes. I'll get to that pilot actually a really liked to sitting on my own and having a think. I'm done. I'm done lots of that. Say Lockdown has been a real way of doing that. From with me is a think normally conclusion arriva is open a bottle of pick poo. The natural thought processes ended with a glass of wine and so I've just been shit face for the entire time. On your new it just on your best. For four months. Normally on Uzumcu basically. So normally have facetime resume call and. But I'll be can hear what's going on in the background is that Say. Because it's Thursday night on my right eye live on quite long raid in Birmingham and it's full of absolutely Unisex and they started because we don't do the applause on Thursday anymore they want down the rate with that phone cords. And They used to to the NHS, but now they get done with Cohen's actually it's really nice 'cause they do collections for. Food Banks. But they really tournament. Racket. Tell Them I put a note through everyone story said I will be speaking to mill seven o'clock sharp pleased to not make not racket outside my house and. Maybe, that maybe there actually applauding me, they're not the NHL nurses for the great service of this podcast. Sorry I didn't think of. Now, that's fine. Click and how long have you had that with anxiety that you described before lockdown The first, the symptom which is really annoying is it makes me feel sick and a eight or drink on its its worst and everything closes up. But not even that like a stop of opposite sauce of ranch when I have like a glass of water wherever it's really Christ. Yeah isn't that annoying so annoying but also did you is that why it took so long to find because it was what last April last summer or something the Summer when I lost summer I I went to the number festival and I had a beer. and. It may be a bit weird. And then I just gradually as that day with own couldn't. Couldn't read a to drink anything and they just got worse and worse and to the point where I thought what got some so stomach issues so I went to bed and just took off. and I wonder whether I did have an actual physical symptom that has just been built up in my head a little bit. And then it just stuck around on an off mount and an I gradually started to realize because it is reading a passage in Bella Mackie's book. Could Jog on which is a brilliant book about how joking of helped her with her anxiety and she just described having a panic attack and all that stuff and how this are so. Tech and so am. I realized it was was threat. Did you not think for a while that it was just like an actual illness like my ass. Illness Yeah thought I had like. Some. Sort of stomach. Whatever? Now, it's the old brain box so that I found really interesting exercise say. There's a therapist of saying and she the main trick was beer and she just said your homework is have a pint of beer and I love that as as a homework but at the time because it was so terrifying to me as. Oh I'm not sure I can do that and she said what's the West it could happen not be sick and she's not your in house on your hand just be saying, let's say what leash Iraq and so just had a struggle with the first pint, and then there was the second part of the Pie and then I, saw it's like a challenge and that's one of the things discovered with anxiety is the if you kind of when he failed in a like a paco ever coming on dent resist and actually almost it sounds ridiculous Willie on and go come on let's have a fucking Pau. Then, than it doesn't really have anything to hold onto Catherine by talks about that, it's about the you've just go to see if the world does actually end when you do the thing that you were most afraid of. No it doesn't wait. So okay. So. Do you have not from. From what what is the Arctic? That's the thing that I don't understand is it could you be having like a bad reaction to bear or bear trigger you to remember something boarding the basic is trick. Trick to remember something right A. But. Which is essentially that moment that time when I was having that Bayer and suddenly I was in a social thing. I. Was Around People Enough Outline should be having fun and everyone else's having fun and I was thinking aecom have because swallow. And then you start into this weird spiral head thing. That's interesting. So something. So so actually the anxiety is kind of a symptom of what happened in that moment. In a way. Yeah. Yeah I think that. Those. At the moment that I remember specifically as being in a GIG, watching stand up show in a my friend Harry Potter bear we sat down and we were like watching this stand up show radi good aren Chen is nine is very funny and I'm. Just couldn't drink the bay on just said Oh you fix enough well, he ruined your life you should save. I I am in the process of. New York. One of the other thing is A. Friend of mine. Very close friend of mine had. Died just before lockdown. So this is the thing that was so slightly. Weighed about lockdown as the this friend of mine he's All, well, he has. He's been two more things than anyone else. In my life and temps evacuees. So follow me to GEIC slow. All the way up to get that crime not Shabina elise different things done and he was pretty much all of them. and was a very close friend and he tag next a few years ago with Bowel Council, which gradually progressive that he died I for I think it was just a week before we locked down. No No. Sorry. A couple of weeks after lockdown the dates of confused me but he died of stomach cancer and Abou- cancer the his stomach was the kind of the source of a lot of his. Illness obviously and I think imagery from that has created because I I always prided myself on having quite strong. Temperament in terms of from. I watched I'm a celebrity in Kangaroo House five of those I love. I'll do it. In a Nice Mayo and that'd be that'd be a nice meal for me I'm so of. Eighty anything I'm quite I'm quite. Excited to explore food. and. Then suddenly can't even drink a glass of water and I think some of the been through a bit of a trauma watching what happened to him and I think that in some ways properly. Added to over anxiety Mike Experience seems to not have one exact. Source is kind of build up of things. And I'm. A need you of clutching a little bit around. So our start whatever. I think if you really trying to find a specific. Hans so you're not GonNa get one and essentially just could arise right that crazy wave. Yeah and they say that it's sort of a symptom of something that will start with a gentle knock disorder like little little something and then if you ignore and keep doing whatever it is, that's triggering you it'll get a bit louder and then it turns into a buying and then it's like. Breakdown yeah. So. I think that busy people and show Biz people as well where where trained to always be soft shiny and fun and come with the good anecdotes and be the sort of life and soul of the Party and so therefore, we are very very inclined to miss those symptoms because we're so busy focusing on others with performers as well. So we're just built to perform even sort of social environments even with each other over the phone, there's an element of it at all times and I. Think that for a lot of people anyway that the lockdown has created this stillness that you cannot escape from, and so therefore, you can hit a knocking louder than ever before I'm really sorry about what happened with your friend and I I imagine it must be strange to. Not have that person to call. During a time like this. When you say witnessing your life, it's so strange to not have a not have the chance to grieve properly 'cause he's so you he died and then everything changed and so. We didn't we had a ten people at the funeral whatever we didn't have a proper thing and I'm we will eventually. But we had a lot of friends law people loved him and We didn't get the fair well. We didn't get that kind of shed crying and hugging and all of that because we weren't allowed to say and so I feel like I've got delayed grief as well. Like got this sort of. Pending. Sadness because actually a lot of the time. I actually I'm generally quite good grief anywhere of relatively philosophical. Basset but. As much as I would have liked. Because a lot of good cry I really like getting out. And I haven't done that it'll come. It'll come when you least expect it and least wanted. This podcast why exactly I was challenged challenge accepted Joe. I why could dealing with grief? Normally how philosophical about great I feel like that could be handy to everyone right now considering that we are surrounded by we are just marinating grief currently. I'm not sure any wisdom to impart. It's just it's just the way I disagree stiff up. To Congress. Theory. Shove more and. What you have to do you have to if you lose one friend, you have to kill enough says, it uses of overwhelm yourself with it, and then you can move on now. I find where my my grandfather died, and then another friend of mine died on our side about both of them. I have a really normally it takes me a few days normally around the funeral days after I have a massive cry like a proper Claire Danes Remigia. Crime. Yeah Around US get out it's doing big. It's like a big Old Grief Poo and then member. Of Your is a little grief of your is base maps though, isn't it crying? Revolutionary. Purpose does it serve to sort of leak of your face but I have a fucking allergic reaction to tears I don't have other people have this but my face cannot cope with salt water at all so. Cry, I immediately looked like after two bollocks have replaced where my is used to be my words are. Old. Candy bollocks. Let's say. Yeah. I might have to try. To paintings that thank you. Yes, place. So I can't I can't even the whole time. I'm crying I have to this is really embarrassing. I can never fully immerse myself in grief because the whole time I'm crying. Immediately. James to go get me like a cold wet cloth so I have to sit. Wash Wash Wash Wash. So. So I'm having an allergic reaction, the entire time crying. So I haven't gotten to fully indulge in a big old. In. It's so good is really good. You need to hope something on what will trigger like titanic or something. I fucking hate titanic? Cry. Hey. Mentioned just because I cried heavily at that when I was a child, I'm not sure if I watched it now whether it would affect me why don't you the firm? I think. My mom loved the film and so we went and saw it in the morning and then she made me see it four more times day. Could she took love this slow much. Sorry. So Titanic five times in one day. Four or five times, but we just stayed much can and. I mean, fair enough. But. Too many times. It's too many times to walk. In he tied. That to I. If you're an employee you'll probably experiencing hiring challenges from time to time. But right now you face even more challenges from rethinking go workplace safety hiring employees for specialized roles. Madison resources could relate they needed to hire a season seniors tricks administrator to provide it support not an easy job to fill. So they turned to Ziprecruiter ziprecruiter's powerful matching technology finds people with the right skills and experience for your job in fact, four out five employers. Who Post, on Ziprecruiter. Get a quality candidate within the first day and that's how Matt's resources found. Pita outcome to junior was laid off during covid nineteen. I needed to find another it job quickly to continue paying his mortgage and bills. He posted his resume on Ziprecruiter ziprecruiter identified 'em is a great match for the role at Matt's and resources the interviewed and hired pizza in less than three weeks. So see how ziprecruiter can help you. Hire. Tried out now for free at ZIPRECRUITER DOT com slash way that's ziprecruiter dot com slash away. If you someone who like me house a lot to learn about other people from different communities in this world, then you should perhaps check out my new youtube channel I've created an extension of I weigh the instagram channel and a bit like this podcast I created this safe space for all of us to learn. So I am interviewing actors. And Writers and artists and activists and doctors from all around the world and asking them everything that I would like to know about how to support understand other people from different experiences to mine. So if you want come along and learn with me, then join me on my youtube channel. That's just go to youtube forward slash Jamila Jamal, and we can learn together. I, know it's embarrassing thirty four year old started a youtube channel but fuck it. anyway we. We, took about your very serious loss of a friend to the stupidest place ever are you checking? Again Okay Checking Gone Down By. Point one. So, we say. Cooling down real tyron. We've got. Okay. So yeah. So the next time every week terms of endearment that is the film always kills me and I cry and cry. So I'm going to write I'm going to do that so you are. Benadryl, before you know some sort of antihistamine, Sirleaf skin doesn't blow up or maybe sort of to put some vaseline on the cheek. So it just sort of rolls off the vast selene I think I think that's a good idea. So you were yet to have the big pook up your is the big cry and feel little, Poos okay. Is. I've done some little fats. Idea, the little fouts cry fats but my mate Fart noises and then is it like because life isn't but to norma does that make it more surreal? Guess because. Die For it doesn't you're. Going to play with that passive, I don't hop on about this. I'm not trying to make you cry on this podcast just I, think because I I know people I lost someone a couple of months ago and I know that a lot of people have during this particular time and in something that not a lot of people are talking about. So I really appreciate you even telling me that And it's okay to not feel the things right now because everything is so surreal and and so abnormal on. You're not yet going to the places maybe you went to with your friends. So if you are out there and you have lost someone and you feel bad for maybe not having had your big pook cry. which is what I will now forever refer to as. then there's nothing wrong with you. You'll just on pause grief rumbles. Back from polls. Yeah. What about love have you been doing any social distance checking? God I wish. I. It's been a long time since someone actually wiped me off. That's all I'm after really. Yeah. Even after. Even after full then just like A. Mo Pen. Full Pan Penetration unbelievable. So full pen for sure. I just a nonchalant hundred due. To the world of good right every thought about during the stranger rank you sit in your hand for three minutes that goes nominees and then it feels. How Far I didn't have the dexterity for that. It's not that there's a few angst I agree with this that there was one that was described to me when I was. A school which known as the danger wonky familiar with this. Yes. GonNa explain it to those who didn't grow up around other. Attentive. I remember this day. Neanderthal. Them. Basically. You shout. Mom. You're. Your and your. Mom and Mindy start ranking and you have to Jeez before. She comes up to your room. This the danger. Wang. Own. You've got no one to do that with right now because you've been doing. Win. Could call the cat up and go I sleep in the attics. He's got two flights of stairs to get up site you enjoying not being in a relationship right now during this pandemic I fucking love it. That's I. Really Love Spending time on I I'm so fun on my own. Riot. DEMARIA. Drunk Guy. Yeah That's the main thing I've learned in lockdown is that I really don't need the amount of human stimulus that I thought he did. A bit of a chat with someone even just over text or ever a day I'm dom. Need I don't need to be seeing people have a lunch or dinner and then. Coils of meetings this identity while I love a search quiet time with with my because I find that every every interaction I have with someone needs sort of. percolating afterwards needs to be thought through and to really kind of get the most out of it and a lot of what I was doing. Pre Lockdown was having interactions of pain doing matt and things that just not moves of human normal and. And then having to deal with those in. The mall out the in about thirty seconds count the next thing. So it's no life. It's no life. No, I. Agree I've had a big wakeup. Cool during this pandemic during lockdown of what's the just working too hard. I was working so much and it's why I was making a lot of mistakes and really fucking careless publicly, and it's just I was in chaos for years because you'll just like going from one thing to the next thing to socializing to go back and then try to be a girlfriend tried to be a good employee tried to be a good boss a colleague like just it was so much have a second to stop to read to learn to. To to reassess that's where I'm at. If you think about how much we change year to year, and before we are at our forties or fifties, it's so dramatic and so to not have any moment for respite to. Recuperate from that change means that you just end up making terrible mistakes. You can't access your instincts as easily and I. I think I think it's only of why I've been a bear for sometimes. Is in other ways I am just a try and I'm just ignorant but I do think the I've just recognized that I wasn't looking after my health, my mental health I'd anxiety and I was missing my actual life and actual start to associate with going out and climbing mountains and seeing millions of friends but actually sometimes life is just what happens to you. In Moments. Yeah truly and. I call mine, sit and stare which I haven't had time. Coming out. Utah Quentin Chris Clinton. Chris wrote a lot and sparkle about how he did not obsessive Quentin Crisp I've read his stuff lights. How he would just do nothing and people found that really annoying and they'd say she must have some things listen to the radio something and you know I I say I concede. Occasionally, I blink A. Lot and he used to love doing nothing. His favorite thing today we're coming out of this oversee everyone needs to work everyone needs to make money but I definitely want to change how much obligation I feel to to be sociable to walk to do everything that comes along I think because and I you and I. Both kind of found success. In a sudden moment and so I think that when that happens and when you know that you're so lucky to have found that moment of success you then feel guilty about the idea of saying no to anything because you. Moment's GonNa run out and you had. Like it was so fast. I mean I feel like. Maybe it was two thousand and thirteen the first time I ever see you do stand up and that tiny little theater in London, and then within just a couple of years, you're a household name five I've seen senior rise just it was just so fast and That must have just been a situation where you feel obligated to do everything go every day to go everywhere as a up you're in a different city every single day sometimes zone these ridiculous tours, and then you're also hosting TV shows and then being super sociable. What was it like for you becoming famous really fast. Well see I would to speed the I didn't feel that it happened that fast actually it I think lots came at once in the last few years in terms of tally gigs in terms of getting recognized, it did fill Festa, tell you did them I ten cats? Cold yesterday is. A commercial. Area. because. There's a spinoff now isn't the so that psycho British Panel Sheriff Room Fear American listeners and A very popular one at that and I went on his guest might be four or five years after starting up and so saying that people I went to school with no kind of clot because. Not. Many people go on that show that you know I suppose. I was expecting to finish doing that show and step out into the street and just PAP scaring off. The, you know being all the papers and all of that. So Stephan. Shared. And so then you realize you start to realize that it's A. It's an accumulation of work that starts to get you recognized. I've just gone through the whole cliche thing. And I genuinely never go into stand up all I've never made decisions based on being famous. There's A. There's a distinction in terms of growing your profile in order to do the things he wants to do but I always just want to make things and want to have the. the. Freedom to make the things I wanna make and when you doing standup oversee won't show off to as many people is not quite as possible 'cause arenas stu- still slightly. Frightened may be. You want to have a big audience. You do want to get a bit famous in order to kind of get that audience. But I'm I've gone through the cliche thing of a getting a bit of fame and having a confusing relationship with an entirely liking it once I achieved it. I'm finding it. Sometimes bit disruptive into associates. For example, and this is This is a acquired extreme example was in the hospital with my friend. This was Tonight at six months, a Saturday and. I went to the cafeteria to govern them half a lunch sat down as having this lunch and this woman came. Home, my God I love the sewing. I love that show and my friend lapsus while she's in, she's just having a spinal surgery actually that she's just having right now you can. You film a video for her to say about and I thought you have fine and then says she to start filming man aside what's her name and she had a complicated name and I got it wrong a couple of times she's she. Said? No, no this and so then I'm like also. An An. Having Glad. You let the show sewing be thinking why are we said having funny on fucking spinal surgery let's say then you just have any sort of panic moment and then like I'm dealing with like I don't feel famous personal feel like a friend who's in a hospital hoping some of that grief and I just did this video I'm going to step back in my other friend was with me and she was what the fuck was that like what you just said a load of weird things I'd love to see that video because it is just. fucked. Where's your spine gets ripped out? The dictator. If you're out there and you took that video of dry La Jolla pleaser tweeted at me. Jimmy to. engaged. With this episode. And the thing is this no malice does nothing but joy and love their essentially. She's she's worried about a friend This video will help friend who knows it may well have done A. It's all. It's all good but I didn't sign up for at the same time. And it just comes at any suddenly. Oh Shit. You're famous. Oh, forget and. Parts of that I. Find Difficult Times as the time I love meeting because everyone. So Nice to me I'm not. I'm not particularly controversial figure. So people aren't getting you anchor wherever ensure that will change but. After this. The body is found. Yes. Oh I I've gone through quite. So. Of cliche segregating. Oh, this is exciting. Oh, this is annoying. It's quite funny I. I was I. Remember I was in London a year and half ago I was having a blazing berry obvious row with my brother like the way the only siblings can fight and we're scraping each middle of Soho like fully furious to both of us red in the face, which is really hard for Brown people to achieve. You have to be very very. To be able to see that complexion on us and a goal just fully, and she had no bad intention. But she came into this shock I'm GonNa get a picture with her and came up to me in the middle of the argument and broke up the fight to ask for a Selfie on a video for her friends and she just kept on saying. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. But just still kept on doing it and still kept on photographing and filming, and you'll just like well I guess that is part and parcel of this extreme age that we are afforded but it is really funny some of the moments that I have taken pictures of people are just unbelievable. Sometimes I'm in hospital taking pictures of the nurses like. It's just it's just a funny old thing. Does it make it hard today? Well. Yeah. If I was dating I am really I mean. Occasionally. This is what happens to me. I get horny about three times a year. When the moon is that it's Just. I hold about three times a year. It's normally one of just finished a big job and the finish, not a ham. I've just finished. I can bake work thing and I think on. Stuff ACCARDO. And I am I've realized I'm like a cat. Have Having Winston who I've only looked after during lockdown he's my friend's cat who I've basically adopted. Never had a cat. looked. After before and I really like him and I think it's because he has similar temperament to me, which is he loves soccer Katelyn whatever, and then suddenly you feel vulnerable and you can't predict when it's going to happen and then he's just not interested in new tool just fox off on the come back for a little bit and then there's no consistency with unless it's around food and. That I WANNA cuddle. By cut mean full pan and then. Once the cuddles done. Yeah. I've had a bit of a kind of actual cut afterwards. I JUST WANNA get on with my life and so. For the rest of the season until the Moon reaches its Its peak again or wherever it is an. And I think it's a slightly product of the amount of work, but also just i. think that's just. Slightly my temperament and that's not great for most people not looking for someone who's like sat no. No, that's not ideal. That's not very giving relationship or take a very long time to have a sustainable relationship with you. So far and few between. That's it. So I just haven't so. I've had little bits of kind of from interest wherever and people tell me that I'll just find someone and now. Whatever and I into the I'm totally open to the whole thing. But what I've realized is for longtime I was dating people because I felt like a ship dating people and not actually you end up doing is kind of Wasting time because you get to someplace I, just go Ashley I'm not GonNa be able to see that much because I'm working whatever and. Four ivories and desperately effort in and so I just don't feel like. They want anyone elephant I, WANNA waste. Anyone's time. Can I? Ask You about your sexuality Joe Lisette. Yet go on them and you have spoken publicly about being Pan Sexual, which something is not a lot of people will say I. Saw alluded to my own punctuality and was met with extreme mockery. What how did it go for you fine and then I had a horrible week when Lipton pay came Penn Sexual. And I didn't say anything for most of the time but everyone had to go can't remember ever and we just felt like this is. I think Pan Sexual. Is Trending on twitter and there's this wall of people being is should not have fucking nonsense they everyone does live. A jumping on that I'm and saying again, I kind of woke. Sandbag answer a bandwagon in an older. And Am. And in some ways assumes disagree with them because I have jumped on the bandwagon because of heard a word that I felt defined me. Better than any author and so without hearing that definition, I didn't invent the term pan. Sexual. Without hearing that Got Somebody Creating Walken a bandwagon I wasn't on the band wagon right but I think there's a difference between saying someone's learned new time that they find they identify with vs someone said Oh that would make me sound trendy and they don't actually identify with sexuality but they say they do in order to be allowed in some sort of magical fun club which they consider. Plus a plus. Hugely. Martin I will be. We'll say a miss saying it to you Casino Times reporter is. beaver no. I with everything you just said a do still feel like being sexual cool like I feel really cool being section I'm glad I am I feel like it's the power of me. I'm proud of that's like I'm the flavor of the moment I'm not being stoned to death. I feel I. Feel at this point in time I'm glad that I'm pan sexual right now rather than years ten years old whatever because it's so What do you explain? Yes. Okay. So explained because the whole time that we each other before you had. Define yourself as bisexual and still do still. So Basically A. Is Sir bisexual. So I'm attracted to both men and women. The problem with that would and is not huge problematic aren't really give share It's an intellectual I. The reason I use pen sexually intellectual way of describing how I fail about my sexuality. You can define your a say in all sorts of beautiful excessive remarkable ways. You could be attracted to. Young people people you might like Daddy. Offset SORTA faker Oh you know there's all sorts of different. Yeah. Do you know it's an awesome? Of younger sort of. Young bear, basically young. Young Harry Charlie. Survive. Well less Chubby, really more of authority. And little pause. Say this all sorts, different things and gender is one of them and I can't deny that certain times. I'm more attracted to certain genders than others, but often it's just to do with the individual an not. Sometimes, not even that it's just like you just fail of is sexy and not mobile and he doesn't really matter who it is. You know you get the look of someone thing that'll day and he just. kind of feel like sexy and my friend came up with this theory about a g think you could have a wink of of really good rank rather than like thinking about some having sexist video whatever an individual you just have. You think back to a really good. Thank you had. Such a good wine ca could wind about that wink. I sent to you in any way. I'm interested yeah. Yeah Yeah. So I've gone attention there but basically, there's no, there's no gender there. There's no individual. There's no sexuality is just sexuality just you just Avenue Lank and You just avenue white night. So I sometimes I'm just having a rank and it doesn't matter if it's male female whatever is. You just a sexual being and say pan means. And say, just it's an a casual term for basically saying I'm open to anything and. And often my sexual attractions things. So kept me going. unpredictable on the not. In the not entirely, they are somewhat A. Controlled by genda not know near entirely like that's one element. Often it's sack the shape of an arm or you know the way someone looks at you or if you had a bit too much to drink and you just fill in a bit nimble, it's all ties things. Yeah. For me I, I fall in love with people and I am attracted to people based predominantly on personality so. Personality Sexual Yeah Truly. Nice Nice personality section asymmetrical lack of. Sexual. Let's see how that goes down in the fucking next times interview the. I think that's what it is is the old enough with people I'm attracted to people and I don't have a type. Every single person I gravitated looks completely different from the other and they are completely different. It's just if they make me laugh on said, that could be a man, a woman or agenda non-conforming person but I think is really good to have that to have someone speak about it in a way that just. Doesn't make it sound like a trend or phase. You're just you just love who you love fancy who you fancy I don't think that should be something that's terribly dramatic. The fact that it still met with such radical I mean I understand it's not unpredictable that pan sexuality would still be something that is so marked when we still haven't really come to terms with bisexuality but by phobia is still very real and I'm sure that. All the time with people being like Oh you gay or straight I'm in a you know a Hetero relationship with a man right now. So therefore, people have said that have I cannot possibly be bisexual or anything other than completely straight because I'm trying into have specific life partner I fallen in person not the gender. Yeah. The. People so. Curious Sunday, the way they suddenly. I'm. Decide that they know you all The by thing, I've noticed most of the BI phobia I've had is from the gay community and. Often older gay man. I raised a blog about this years ago Christopher. Biggins said something about him out bisexual men ruin women's lives is what he said because basically, we will come on the road to being gay. We haven't that yet, and so we funny about with women and they get attached and then we were in their lives because got assaults with gay actually and. I can sort of understand from that generation y you would say that because. People. died in order for us to have the right to sleep with. Whoever we want to, you know as long as everyone's consenting and naturally you create communities and little suspicious for yourself. So a safe like the will make. I love the gay scene in Birmingham particularly that's a safe space for. Those people and if suddenly there's people like me coming came when I'm a bit year but I'm a bit over there as well. I can see why you're a bit like woke hang on argue because are you trying to attack me or not are you a threat? So I do get that I understand why that's happened. To some degree, but you would hope. Doesn't take long for you to go. Now I'm I'm entirely with you I'm just also gonNA. Go and smash some purse. Not Right now because that's the other thing is that people think that bisexual people are More Permissive. Just, enjoying, smashing how much How Much I got away with saying smashing some purse. This is consenting to the. I I've shopped myself with. Do not. Oh Gosh. Becoming well, it's been it's been four and a half months. You've seen some post. So I'm not surprised that you no longer than that. TIMISOARA purse. Of the Winston. Offer, the good old. Winston. Well. What I was saying, you know bisexual people are also considered to be more promiscuous. So therefore, I can't imagine what they think about Pam sexual people because you seem like, well, you if you if you're always attracted to perhaps the other. Then if feel also attracted to the agenda, then therefore, you can never be fully faithful to someone who is just one of those binary. It's that's not a thing that's the same as being. Unfaithful of your straight person in a relationship. There are billions of people on this planet who you could be attracted to or want to have sex with a want to cheat with, and you don't you're either a Cheetah or not sexuality does not make you more or less promiscuous. Just changes who you're attracted to who you can fold enough it. It's it's it's quite a lazy. Thing there isn't. Also the accusation that your. More promiscuous is is unfounded at least in my experience because I only have three opportunities a year to be promiscuous with my with my. holiness. But will say if you are really promiscuous nothing wrong with that being safe, just fuck over you on this long as everyone's up for it. Shackled Day let's lovely. It's nice. Talk a little shy. I agree I. Have I have more promiscuous straight friends than I do by open. Gay Friends even well, I'm glad that we've had this chat, I think I think that's important and I think that no one should ever feel that you're just trying on a costume. If you say that you are Pan Sexual if you identifies whatever sexuality, it's all fine love and sex is good and fighting and being mean as bad. So you should feel. Around just loving who you love. That's mice fighting and being mean is. teasha. Okay. So another thing, I won't talk to you about every briefly, etc. Take loads of your time because I know you like to be on. Time. This is a podcast where we touch upon things like sexuality touch upon shame we touch upon mental health, but we also talk about them and you're someone who I'm not sure everyone recognizes activists I fully fully deem you us when you were just the most lulls vist on the planet. You have decided to take it upon myself to be the knight in Shining Armor to people their complaints we please explain your new role in society couple of years. So A. In an as quickly as I can describe it. In my standard a discovered early on I. Could. Found this only niche and Particularly I've discovered. The person done it lays comics have done similar things but essentially writing correspondence emails and letters whatever to a generally bureaucratic institutions, local councils, and big companies whatever and just basically piss about with them It's like your complaint. Letta. Love rang a complaint letter I get myself real really riled up, and then I can really go for it fired up about about getting a parking file and responded to it and got it was so funny and everyone thought I was absolutely amazing and it did very well viral and I'm a viral style did thank you anyone out there. Joe Do this again, please go and look up Joe lisette parking fine, and it's truly one of the funniest five minutes of. Your Life. But go on. So I'm. As my profile started to rise than TV, companies are interested in making a TV show with me and they were asking me us. Won't today whatever and with a M- the guidance of a few different. People who have now ended up making show with I've I've done t series now who Jerry Rice it's got your back and it's Sorta like him. There's an old British that's life which is where. it was hosted by a strengthen and would be basically taking on complaints from people in sort of saying there's a new practical watchdog, which is similar things is consumer issues. McCoy is gone and the company's ignoring me what you're gonNA. Do about it, and then the TV company comes in helps the because I'm a comedian. As comedic Lee as possible. So we take on these these big stories and we try and tackle them in a funny way and we do that one because I'm a comedian but also because It's one thing that I think activism at its best does really well when he say really funny blackout a protest that can be very, very powerful and. Huma can really a lot of company well, individuals and companies are terrified. They didn't really mind being exposing wrongdoing as long as they kind of concern about away with it but payoff companies really go into overdrive when they feel that the companies that representing a being made to look silly because that can be so damaging to Brown. the the big example this year that I did was. On. The series series we did we took on a story about a small brewery in Wales. Boss Brewing who had been center what's known as a cease and desist letter, which is a legal letter. Telling the company to stop using. The word boss because. Come from the company. Yucaipa because they deemed this little. Swans eight PM, ruining that billion dollar business ops and so am. Way looked into it and realize he kept done this to a few small companies and so I. Decided to tackle this particular issue by. Realizing that Hugo boss, hate that name being used, and so changing my name by deed politique eyeballs, which I did for few months and caused somewhat of a storm. It was beautiful. It was so funny I can't believe you're officially legally changed your name to go boss, and then you change all social media handles an only refer to yourself as Hugo. Boss Change. Everything. Everything and the only thing that I couldn't get done with the passport driving licence because I changed my signature to is Hugo boss cocker bowls and apparently that's not allowed. So I wonder if I need to get it framed that she the letter from the dvr lay who says the ECON- have An obscenity as your signatures must. But yeah. Tool intents and Pepsi's is he gave us I. It was so thrilling those days when they first announced it and it went like. It went around the world it was on CNN it was on India news vows getting request to do news all over the world and. A because it's just such a simple idea. But kind of made the point while I think his funniest. Well, it's such a stupid thing today also telling truth to power you'll making them look really stupid for being this and decades and decades decades existing long and raining multi. Just huge corporation who built this tiny little new brewery over the use of a word that it's just in our language new original word. Now how did they respond they like it? No. We had from their lowest in ways at they gave they in the end they statement saying like they welcomed me to the family and the Hugo host family? I will not pick Christmas this year. I can tell you that for that and that they had constructive talks with the brewery which the prairie I imagine disputes because the pocket by. Tens of thousands of pounds and so am yet I definitely pissed them off for awhile and the brewery of had so much interest in whatever as a result you know they've. Not. Sure. Exactly. But it wouldn't surprise me if they've made back the money that they lost in legal fees through the added sales type say. So that was good fun, my activism are space then is I'm always looking for how to keep those companies in checking guy hang on. GotTa, keep doing that you gotTa Cape making the right decision regardless. Because this, this company, the one that I find. Says Skin Crawling Louis. infuriating is appreciate ways who actively sponsor Brighton Pride have big. Bus. Every year I think Kylie's played on at once ever said, and they changed their logo to the gay flag as well. Done APPs. And You know they they really go for and show that show off the super pride positive whatever, and then they also take a. Thing, they still take contracts from the Home Office to deport people, lgbt people to countries where is illegal and dangerous for them to be. So on the one hand they're like, oh. Yeah. We really support Lt Rights, and then on the other hand the literally taking the two countries to. Support them and we need to solve catty you just you just a company that had just making money and you just trying to find a way to banks do all the time, and so that's where my activism comes into psych. it's obviously a my program we do in a smaller way, but essentially, it comes from a distrust of the motivations of companies and. And the way they treat people in an often treat them with shem a not even the the employees the at not even the customers, the employees treat them with such lack of dignity. A lot of the time because of course they accompany doesn't care if you live is lowest keep making money. Yeah. Well, I think it's a good. This year has been a good lesson for us to see how many people have been so formative and then as soon as they do they get cooled out by their employees. About horrendous mistreatment we've seen so many people have to step down from companies I. Think what it says to us is that it's wonderful that change is coming and that is down to us as the people for having made so much noise that we now actually have the power. It's also just very important. People recognize that we have all the power we've vote with the dollar and the pound we get to decide who are the big corporations we get to decide who are the big superstars and the influences, etc.. They don't control us we control them. We are the puppet masters it's just been. All these years where we thought it was the other way around. So we're when you're seeing all these companies engage in all of these things on follow block, mute delete, and do not give them your money start to give to the companies that are actually doing the right thing because you can build them up to be the next super. Corporation you have old absolutely. Yeah. Joe. And that's happening so much. We could talk about this. Come. Joe Thanks for coming on and talking to me about all of this stuff today I'm GonNa need you. I'M GONNA need to get you back on at some point because it's just so much more to say but before you go, would you tell me? It. What are you way? I was reading this question because I don't really know. I think highway. Essentially at core a a a desire to make the right decisions to do the right thing. Essentially might the right decisions be kind but also not take anything anything like literally everything too seriously it's all innoncence gets all right for being. picked apart an amid silly and. It's all a laugh. Well. Thank you very much Thank you so much for listening to this week's I way. I would also like to thank the team which helps me make this focus produces via jennings and Kimmy Lucas my editor under Kalson my boyfriend James Blake who made the beautiful music you're hearing now I may for my work I, tell you why would love to hear you and what you way at the end Of this book cost, you can leave us a voicemail at one, eight, one, eight, six, six, zero, five, five, four, three or email us what you weigh. I weigh cost at g mail DOT COM and remember it's not impounds and kilos until social contributions to society or just how you define yourself in life, and now we would love to pass the MIC to one listeners. Way. I'm animals right I'm ray human rights. I on them sprite.

Joe Joe Joe Lisette youtube Matt Ziprecruiter Birmingham California Hugo boss Winston London Stephen Dubner Iway Jamile Jamilla Mel NATO Hutch Johnny Steve Levin facebook Hugo
Epilogue: Homebody

By The Book

42:21 min | 9 months ago

Epilogue: Homebody

"This message is brought to you by windows. HP everyone has a different way to work weather. It's typing on a computer sketching out notes with a pen or accessing all your stuff on your phone with windows and HP. You'll have all the tools you need to work the way you want. So whatever you do, make it you with windows and HP. See how at windows dot com slash HP. Won't take you long to figure out that I just think differently than other people here there. Stephen. Dubner and that's my FREAKONOMICS FRIEND AND CO author Steve Levin I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena Huey behavior in weird circumstances, but it is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called the people I mostly admire listen on stitcher apple podcasts spotify or wherever you your podcasts. The following podcasts contains barnyard language and some adult content. So maybe listen on headphones if you're at work or around small children now here's a show. Hey Joe Linda. Yes de it has been one week since we by homebody and you know what that means. It's time for another by the book. Many episode. Dog. Wins out. Pain. That's right. It's time for another by the book epilogue this week we're looking at the aftermath of living homebody a guide to creating spaces you never want to leave by Joanna Gaines. We heard from so so many listeners, lots of hot takes on home bodies, and first of all, let's get to your thoughts on our experiences. Shall We? Yes. Yes. Let's do it. Marie says I really appreciate that with the new season of home theme episodes that Kristen Enchilada are apartment dwellers and provide that perspective when we lived in an apartment and rented, it was always a bummer that diy and home theme decorator shows always focused on homeowners with lots of space who can renovate. As they wish kristen. Gillette your perspective is needed. Yes. Marie I. Agree With You I love watching those home shows but they almost never talk about people like me and Joe Lente and the hundreds of millions of other people who apartments in the world I mean we're not that rare. There are a lot of people in a way I would always get jealous when I watched home rhino shows and they're like you know that room you have nothing to do with and I'm like no. I. was talking about. You. Know Jealous. So but I'm glad that we can provide that perspective for some of the folks out there presuming that many thousands of you also live in an apartment. So hopefully, you can live vicariously through us, and for those of you who don't live in apartments, maybe you can. Look at how much nicer it is to live in an apartment downsize like look I don't have to mow a lawn. You had listened to us the way I watch like below deck and be like thank God I'm not them. It's sort of anti anti aspirational living. US Yeah I. DON'T WANNA live in a belly bolt don't want to do that. I also love this letter from Holland who says I really appreciate that Kristen mentioned that there is not a Home Office section in this book I love my quirky and nerdy living room and functional kitchen but struggle most with my Home Office and the half of the bedroom that hosts my partner is Home Office. It isn't just a Home Office, but a room of requirements all storage items in progress projects donations waiting to go out etc are just dumped in my office. It's incredibly difficult to balance function and aesthetics. In the space. That's such a good way to put it the room requirements like that's what my office says to our extra room spare room. It's where all the furniture we couldn't part with like doesn't technically fit anywhere goes like storage winter coats like the day bed for guests like it's a lot of things. So it y'all like the more advice the better. Yeah. Yeah and I think Holland so many people are just like you where it's like it's just a corner of the bedroom or it's just a corner of. To. UNOBTRUSIVE but as functional as it can be yeah, and I do I already said this in the main episode. But Joanna Gaines if you're listening please in the next issue of this book when it gets reissued again because it probably will have an office section. Please we need help with the office all of at this we just need office books like home, Office book period all working from home if we're working yes. Yes. Oh, by the way I cannot remember the person who wrote in but she had a funny story who was like this office thing is really necessary because I keep walking into like my husband's zoom meetings without clothes on. There needs to be. Deal. Screen somewhere. Yeah, yes. Yes. I like this letter from Sarah Sarah says I know she was being a bit facetious but really appreciate a Joe Lintas point about respecting your partner and what they want or need from your home too. Often I feel like men in straight relationships are treated like they shouldn't have any interest in interior design or that the things that they like are automatically dumb or ugly. Well, I know Brad would agree with you Sarah. Men have aesthetics. To. Yes, they do I mean I don't WanNa like abuse our position but we do have a man here who could talk to us which is rare bring him on Michaeli In Brat. Can We? Do you feel like in straight relationships, you're treated mandatory like they shouldn't have any interest in interior design or like it's assumed they have no aesthetic Oh. Yeah. How does that? Make you feel? I feel like we're treated like the woman is the boss. In the household, which is a weird place to put me in also replace to put you. 'cause like, why do you have to be the ball? No one wants to be a boss. Everyone. Wants their design to be heard right and then exactly, and then I think that it's assumed whatever I like is going to be dumb yet adolescent. Yeah. A big mouth bass. Yes. Exactly. GOING TO BE Everything's going to be like a man cave idea when like that's the virus. Action figures. Exactly, and that's like a slice of is to be sure but it's like it's very reductive of like the entire male species that that's that's all we want. Right right. Thank you. Thank you for your empire. Okay. Thanks Brad. moving on Jennifer has this to say. I'm sorry. Did I miss here that Kristen is currently hosting five shows how what are they? I love by the Book and Miss We love you and would love to listen to some other kristen and. Hosted shows what's going on? Jennifer. Yes you did hear correctly I am hosting five shows right now one of them of course you're listening to right now by the book Yeah I have two courses also we call them courses they're like audio podcast sort of things coming out with knowable, which is like it's Kinda like the great courses plus but you listen rather than watch videos and so with knowable a show launching on September ninth called. The pursuit of happier where I am who I am a skeptic and I'm interviewing people in the world of positive psychology explaining what science has told us about what actually makes us happier So that's really fun just going in as a skeptic reporter like come on does this really worth and then I have another audio course coming out with them called radical self care that's launching in the fall and it's intersectional. It's. Re Establishing the history of self care as something that was. First coined the term by people of Color, by women of color and and its roots activism so that one's coming out in the fall and then I am hosting another show called innovation uncovered and that's about the intersection of science and culture. So it's like we go to the movies look how science affects that we look at production of wine and how science affects that, and then last but not least movie therapy with Rafer and Kristen I know some by the book listeners already listen to the show van. It's been showing up a lot on the facebook grab some glide people are finally finding what I've known to be. Magic forever. Oh. Thank you. It's really sweet that so many people are listening. It's It's an advice show people reach out with their conundrums. We try to offer a bit of empathy some tips and then some movies to help them feel better about their situation. So yeah, if if you have a hole in your heart because we love you is no longer here and you want another advice show movie therapy with referring Kristen seems to have a lot of crossover listeners right now. So yeah, I am hosting shows but I promise you I. Still have a rich full life I do lots of other things besides show I don't. I I host by the book. And you take care of your health and you do you do a lot of things. During because I don't know how to work on comedy like May and I looked like a mess maybe getting some sort of like. Barbie doll representations of myself or even maybe like a my little pony representation of myself and making some comedy videos of some sort this is the roughest version of an idea I probably shouldn't even be speaking aloud, but that's on the docket. God I, want you to do that I want you to do that. So badly stretch that'll be considered. Okay. I haven't been able to see. You do storytelling her stand up in a million years I mean neither have I but yeah, so I would love I would love it. If you did something like that would be so great. Okay. I want to get to people who wrote into us who said This sounds like it's for me. Victoria says I didn't realize how much the homebody episode would impact me I moved into my boyfriend's house almost three years ago. Most of my stuff is still at my parents place and being here has literally not felt like home at all his mom decided most of the decor when he first moved in and because of his own health issues, he hasn't been. Able to do anything since then sure I've done some little touches here and there I may or may not have put doctor who and Disney decor in the kitchen but the still doesn't feel like home it feels like somewhere I dumped my shit and sleep. So thank Christian and Jolanta I guess I'm going to take a trip to the bookstore tonight. Yeah I know the dump your ship feeling. It feels so temporary, which is the bummer feeling to feel in your home and should feel like more permanent and safe ideally yeah and to you may recall. But in the first season of the show we were living by the life changing magic of up. That was exactly how I felt I'd been living with Dean for so long and yet it was all his stuff it was none of. My stuff it didn't feel like home to me and so Victoria I feel your pain. I feel your pain. You'll get through this and hopefully you know he'll weigh in on a few things. You'll just be able to bring your stuff in and then gradually it will start to feel like a place that you designed together. That's not just his stuff in her stuff but our stuff. Now, can we talk about the people who wrote in to say this book is not for me Yeah we're we're going to have a couple of comments here, but we could have read a lot more than a couple. There were some very hot takes and I'm here for all of them. Yeah Mariana says, sorry, but the cover of the book looks like the least. Inviting Place. It's like a sad waiting room by a staircase. The hover again and guess it's true. There is a sparse ship lap covered staircase. Sort of whitewashed. It has like a black iron railing that's real skinny, and then a black farmhouse bej Joanna Gaines sitting on at white throw tiny plant. Kinda boring. Rug. It looks like you know a minimalist hotel lobby and. Yeah, YOU'RE GONNA, get fingerprints all over that stuff and your butts can hurt if you sit on anything and if a child walks through that made in Rome like watch. Such a good thing. Love it. Love it, and Emma says so much of the stuff in Joanna Gaines is book looks so Pale Cold and oppressively bland I really hate neutrals. Yeah. Basically, every example is the neutral version of whatever is being talked about it's all like whites and tans and Greg. Sometimes cream occasionally. Right true. There is sometimes computer lots of gray pewter and then like a hint of green in succulent. It is the most bare bones version of everything which is bizarre because I feel like Bohemian is like the least barebones style ever but like her example of it is like Gray Tan. Cream. Assurance sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean she definitely has her aesthetic that comes through no matter what she's talking about including those six design categories which I don't know, Jolanta? Your mom was a designer. There's got to be more than six categories, right? Because these are the most popular current. Okay. If you ask me. Yeah, it's just yeah, I'm we're saying we agree with you. Yeah it's it's pretty Pale. It's pretty neutral. It's Kinda cold so We're not gonNA read one hundred more responses from people who are saying the book isn't for me because we'll be here all day, but we do have one hundred more. In the meantime were going to take a quick break. We're GONNA look for Papa color somewhere, and when we come back, we're going to hear about some of your design wins and of course, some of your design miss says, and we'll hear some more criticisms of homebody and just criticisms of Joanna Gaines ourselves stick around. Did you know that Ostermeyer offers natural products. Well, you do now Oscar. Mayer. Natural is full line of fresh high-quality meat that families will love with no artificial preservatives and no added nitrates or nitrites ostermeyer natural means problems enjoying the taste you love anytime I personally a huge fan of the Oscar Mayer. Hot Dog. That's right. Fresh off the Wiener Mobile. I have always loved Oscar Mayer hot dog and what's great is that Oscar Mayer natural includes not just hotdogs but cold cuts bacon and so many other great meets that you'll love and you'll never have to worry because only Oscar Mayer natural provides what you need to confidently feed your family. Again, that means none of the nitrates and none of the nitrites you might find in other products whatever you're tasting meat, Oscar Mayer natural means no problems find it in the prepackaged meet I'll or visit Oscar Mayer Dot Com to learn more. By the book is supported by better help in cancelling, we are in extraordinary times add needless to say some of us are struggling with stress anxiety depression you name it you're not alone better. Help is here and they offer online licensed professional counselors who are trained to listen and help you better help counselor specialize in many areas including relationship conflict, anxiety, depression, loss trauma, and. More, you'll securely connect with your counselor in a safe confidential online environment. Simply fill out a questionnaire to help assess your needs and get matched with the counselor in under forty eight hours. I. Love that you can easily schedule secure video and phone sessions with your therapist and exchange unlimited messages, and of course, if you're not happy with the counselor, you get paired with you. Can request a new one at any time and no charge I'm kristen I'm going to be real with you in these times I have been very reliant on therapy and in particular all forms of therapy on the Internet and better health has been doing this remotely from the very beginning. So they know what they're doing. It's true better help as an affordable option and our. Listeners get ten percent off your first month with Discount Code bt be joined the over one million people already using better help in fact so many people have been using better. They're recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states get started today at better help dot com slash bt. That's better. H E. L P dot com slash bTV talked to a therapist online and get help. We are back with listener responses to homebody, and now Jolanta let's get to some of the listener design wins. So many people out there wrote in with things that they're excited about that. They've done in their own homes. We have hundreds of pictures all over our facebook community right now facebook dot com slash groups, slash bTV pod I mean these pictures are fantastic. Some of them are hilarious. Some of them are stunning some of them look like they're no offense to Joanna Gaines but more exciting. Hasn't a book. Yeah. So let's hear some of the design wins first, and then we'll get to some design. Miss. Yes, winning winning I Jessica. Says Gaming is my new passion and I just love gazing at the boxes and thinking of Happy Memories playing with my family and so I made a gaming corner which is made up of shelves filled with Board Games Card Games and other games and it brings me so much joy. I love this Jessica the picture that you included with US post as fabulous too because those boxes are so vibrant and colorful. and. They create a focal point in the room I never really thought of just taking all the board games and putting them out in the open. So people can look at the covers, but it really looks terrific. I love it Theo says, we love our rat cage because were obsessed with our pets especially now that we don't go out, we moved it to a place of prominence so we can watch them from the couch. Truly. Rating Win Gusts as a former rat owner. I, have to say my parents had to move my rats out of my bedroom 'cause they found out I was sleeping at my I would just sit up and watch them play off because they're also pretty nocturnal. So they were like very act and I would just like sit up with them all night long. So they had to go into the family room. Well, I gotta confess when I read this by the way Theo also attached a picture of the rats are very cute guys when answer. So kid they're usually a blue hooded, they got spots they're super crazy smart. They're adorable get over their tails movie. They're very cute. But yeah, my initial thought was like e the tails but then looking at the picture and then thinking about well so many people make an aquarium. Decorating Center of their home why not a rat cage? This is just as much fun and you can reach an hold them and hug them because they. Run around they like in traits you know and it's like it's like which is. which is more fun like poop floating in water in your house or. A little corner sought us in your house like they're sort of equal in my opinion. Is that too? I don't know why I needed to say that. I. I think people need to hear at Jolanta. We also got this from Vicky she says, I've put together a reading Corner Slash Gallery Wall of art I found on instagram having a four year old I feel like my life and living space are constantly overrun by her and I love having this tiny little place. That's just for me. I do feel like I mean having worked with kids a lot and not even having my own. There was a point in my life where my House was overrun by kids art and I had to take a hot second be like let's put like a photograph of your friends or like nothing a kid didn't draw not that it's so joyful to see kids everywhere. But also I think especially when you need your own time when you're a mom, you might want like space that feels adult even in like what's on the walls? Yeah. Because you're not just a mom, you're also a human. You. And and maybe as you know as Virginia Woolf once said you need a room of one's own even if that room is just a tiny corner with some instagram art and a chair to read it, preach Rachel wrote in to say this, we organize the books on our shelves in the order of the colors of the Rainbow Brad Orange Yellow Etcetera and it's become the main focal point of our living room we love reading and. I'm a librarian. So it makes sense I I love shelves that do that. Anytime I'm a house where they do that. It's just like always i. it's so impressive. It's just the greatest design win. It's something I've never done myself but whenever I see someone else just like this is funny this is more beautiful than any art is so beautiful and I have my friends Ben Khloe to Ben and Chloe I believe met them Creston They you know like I. Don't have a ton of space and what they've done is they have to bookshelves one around their TV and one sort of under like a kitchen island and they just have the rainbow going like starting from the island onto then the bookshelves. So you can do it even if it's not like one whole wall and it's still the second, they did it I walked in and was like, Oh sure. This is impressive for some reason. I. Love It. I, just yeah anytime I see that I'm just blown away like. Did this they're they're impressive and Rachel being a librarian. I loved. It reflects who you are. Also that's something that Joanna Gaines says in her book like make sure your design reflects who you are and what your values are. Don't just do it because you saw in a magazine, but it really speaks to who you are and what works for you. So I love that. Now Alison. Roden. With this I, love this one allison says the kitchen table was my exes. So when we broke up, he took it with him I wanted more storage and counter space. So I built a kitchen island by myself instead of getting a new table and did a diy resin Hor countertops ls. I always loved being in the kitchen to cook but now the space makes me even more happy. This is so impressive as our as fucking joke I looked into that one I ended up putting a sticker over my. Because that's how much commitment I can put into Jacquart like res- imploring is the real deal. You're not just like someone who does like Somehow Moreno Shit. You're like a crafts per cent. Wow I am blown away. It never occurred to me to ever do anything that complicated window any of my design I'm just like, Oh, I like the rat cage thing. Yeah. We need to get to design Mrs. Lee. Yes. Yes and I love that in the main episode, you admitted that you had that design mess like spending hours mapping out a new floor plan and the furniture is going to go here in the living room and the dining broke sweat. And then had just undo all of it. So we've all been there. We've all been there. The S. as in my student days, I had elaborate plan to make my studio apartment into separate compartments. So I would have an office area bedroom a sitting room walk in closet all in one twenty, five square meters, which is two, hundred, sixty, nine square feet room. I made a network of rails on the ceiling to hang curtains between the bedroom and the closet and the rest and bookshelf between the office and the Living Room it looked pretty different colors in each room. And as long as I was alone, it was stuffy but fine. But as soon as one more person was there it felt like I was living in a dollhouse. I think a lot of us of in studio apartments and tried to Natalia. I will admit I did I in my studio apartments I I've lived in several of them over the years. I did try to do it the bookcases accidentally like would lean against them. When they fall on year, it was really dangerous bookshelves are scary. Yeah I just I never quite got it to work, and then in the end I just with my studio apartments was like this is just it. It's an open my beds over here. So you can tell that that's my bedroom 'cause my dad's over there and. Shit onto the burner from the bed? Yes. I can actually go to the bathroom from my couch. Yeah. Everything's just here together, and that's the way it is but I think everyone in studio apartments has tried to do. There's always somewhere but I decided to say fuck it like. Exactly. I like this one from Chris Chris says I painted my dining room, the color of a yellow school bus. But the story does have a happy ending a lovely man at the paint store showed me how to sponge watered-down white paint on top of the Yellow and the finish and look are now amazing. Get that skin well. I've definitely been there where it's like this is not the color I thought it was I guess it was but on a wall altogether, it is very different. It always looks so much darker than it doesn't Cam. That's the thing that's thrown me off on more. He'd experienced it. If you have this base foot by foot swatch of your colors and on each of the wall as many as the balls as you can see, you can see how it affects the light and how like you know if they reflect off each other if you can get them in the right. But that way you can see it more holistically without still painting a ton. It's still had so far work but you know if you can watch more than wall to see how the light effects it in different places That's a really good tip because I've done the mistake it's like well, I'm GonNa paint the whole room again. Color. Amy says. I have a small second bedroom and by small I mean it can literally only fit a twin bed. I've tried to make it a functional part of my apartment for years most recently, I tried to make it a Home Office. But after five months of working at home, I have given up on this room I'm now using it as the junk room. I used it as when I first moved in but now has a wall of shelves from my failed Alpha Wall dusk. We've all thought of it. I admire you for going through with it. And Hayes diverges great. We ripped down the Alpha Wall desk that was left in our apartment when we got the apartment, it was because we it just felt like there was more junk in a room that we didn't know what to do with with the Alpha Wall than without it and that makes sense. Yeah. So Oh, amy yeah. It's those media rooms Cantini rooms can be really hard. And then you know sometimes working in them. You know I commend you for doing it for five months but sometimes, it feel like you are actually in a closet rha. Along to a topic that I, know you're excited about some controversy with this book. Many many many listeners wrote in to say what Liezl did. Legal says I was surprised to hear no mention of the chip and Joanna anti-gay controversy. They are very religious and their pastor is anti gay and supports conversion therapy while Christon I did not know this. You. Well you know what I do have to say, I knew that they were conservative Christians but I did that. But I didn't really know like much about that and I will say this after like looking out more about how like. I. Don't want to like you know alienate any of our conservative Christians in the audience Hashtag conservative Christians, but looking at more on their church, it's like. Yeah. That is you know it's rough but I also know there are a lot of people who are members of churches were they agree with some of the stuff and disagree with other stuff I'm not sure. If chip and JOANNA HAVE SPOKEN OUT A. Group that they said like they don't share the beliefs, but they don't like to talk about it. I would say as like as far as not mentioning it in the. Road. Had I known obviously, I would have talked a bunch of shit about it. But also you know we can only have so much in two weeks and when it comes to books that are so specific. You know unlike girl wash your face where she brings up God in real time in the advice or let next level basic worst-off see talks about owning your mistakes but then didn't live by her own advice when did something like crazy fucking racist. Or like when Tim Ferriss is like if I can do, you can too but he also makes it very clear that he had a leg up that the rest of US didn't. Like that it's like it's in the tech, the advice they give. So with all of this being only about home stuff. It wasn't brought up in the advice in the book itself not saying we wouldn't address at ever. especially I just didn't know about it. You know to be honest home design shows are my big gap in my reality TV show knowledge so I'm glad I know I thought their weirdo controversies in home design shows I was wrong. I. Also saying is the no mention of it in this episode is A. Sorry and be because their religious stuff. Did it come up in their advice? I didn't look into it as much as I normally do when it does come up and when we bring it up in the episodes more more frequently yeah yeah. I second all of that and we absolutely would have brought it up if there was something like. God. Like US neutrals. Yes. Exactly. Like by what makes me like what does that have to do with anything? Yeah. and we do by the way appreciate everyone who did right into bring us up. No Yanni were saying discussions about. Should you give money to people who you know ideals you don't like agree with because like in Burnley. some of that money could end up in the hands of church like so many interesting discussions. Yeah. All of them very valid all of the concerns worthwhile. So thank you everybody who brought those up we really appreciate that and now I love this one I'll let you original. Jennifer says the hosts have never talked about the price of the books they live by but I wanted to point out that homebody retails for fifty dollars in Canada is currently on sale at Indigo for forty two. But still this is the first book that I've been interested in buying for myself but I changed my mind after seeing the price. Will Join I'm going to confess to you. I have never looked up the prices of the books lived by. Up Gaia I usually procure them either by finding US copies or online copies that I distribute and yes this is the one thing we get reimbursed for for word us. Just like you know usually it's like my fifteen, ninety, nine like. I book for Churches or what adverse it is. True. This is something I. Don't think about because of my privileged work position. I don't think about it at all and for the most part other than the show. I use the libby out firm the library or I get used books. I had no idea but I did also see a number of comments on our facebook group explaining that a coffee table book because this is a larger than average book it is. And it's bound in a certain way because. Cook Book Coffee Table. Fee. All where it's a little more. than. Like say how to win friends and influence people. Yeah. It's it's very thick and it's very large like if you were to put on your coffee table You, any book, you'd put on top of it would be smaller than it and I probably wouldn't pay fifty bucks for it though. I mean if you're really a Joanna Gaines man and you just want to like look at pictures of things that she's gains out. Yeah I mean I guess. Yeah. But that being said also and it might be because Joanna gaines has a cooperative like wine of home decor at target. A number of people pointed out that it's always twenty dollars at target too. But that doesn't help people in Canada doesn't. Get in Canada I. In Canada I, don't know let's take a break and think about if targets. Canada and when we come back, we're going to hear a quick lightning round of some of the cheap ways you've all remade your homes, and of course, we're going to announce next week's book. Skram. Kristan we have no idea what twenty twenty means for small business. We do know we have to do more with less and that every single hiring choice is super-critical but also there even fewer resources to find the right people to even higher. Yeah. But fortunately indeed is here to help indeed, DOT COM is the number one job site in the world not just right here in our town, not just here in our country but in the whole world because indeed gets you the best people fast on like other sides indeed gives you full control and payment flexibility over your hiring. You only pay for what you need. You can pause your account at anytime and there are no long term contracts talented. I love that I don't WanNa pay for stuff I. Don't need not only wanNA. Pay for what I need. Yeah. You hired a person then you're done. Yes. What I love is that indeed has lots of powerful tools to make your search so much easier like sponsor jobs those are shown to be three and a half times more likely to result in a higher and with seventy three percent of online job seekers visiting indeed each month indeed is GonNa get you. The important hire you need just like they have for over three million businesses. Right? Indeed is offering our listeners a free seventy, five dollars credit to boost your job post, which means more quality candidates will see it fast try indeed out with a free seventy, five dollars credit at indeed dot com slash by the book. This is their best offer available anywhere. Go right now to indeed dot com slash by the book terms and conditions apply offer valid through September thirtieth. We're back and now a few of the many things all of you out there have done to redecorate on the cheap just like I did with my bathroom as per Joanna Gaines. The suggestion Shane says I made homemade picture rails I. Love them because I can change the art on display as often as I want without breaking the hammer slash bank. Nice. Nice. Sure Rail. Love it Margaret says. Found an old dresser set at a thrift store and I redid it for less than one hundred dollars. It was super difficult because I ended up using a sander in my apartment bad idea would not recommend but they turned out. Awesome. Yeah. I. Saw the pictures they look stunning. Very cute. Amazon says I got a parent shower curtain which inspired me to get a cardboard parrot and some vague. The tropical theme in my bathroom. You know I love feeling like a forest while I'm taking a poo. Love it I'm about that bathroom reviewers it's like being in a rainforest. Love. It Mari says I got some Nice Leftover Gray paint for my workplace renovation and painted the little courtroom by our front door. The Room is full of coats and shoes and has two doors. So it's a mess but with the gray walls, it looked so much better. So much more put together and all for free hurry sometimes, you just need a CODA pain. Yeah ass especially free pain love that pay. So. Kristen it's time. Oh my gosh it is time. When we announce next week's look our next book is bombard around. So you want to talk about race by EG Yoma Alot how often do you talk about race in your home? How often are you aware of your own race and what can we do to make sure the greater human home talks about race in a more productive and just way listen next week to find out And that's it for this week's Mini Atlas You so much for amazing production to at Stitcher Daisy Rosario and Brandon Knicks producers and Kristen's makes this episode. Thanks also donate wider who composed our theme song and to the Rizzo's who perform this rockin version. Please stay in touch. Let us know if you've read homebody also send us any questions or suggestions for future books for us to live by our email. Address is Kristin Angela at G MAIL DOT COM. You can leave us a voicemail at three, zero, two, four, nine, that's three. Zero two, four, nine, two, six, six, five, seven and hit us up on twitter or Instagram at by the Book Pod, and if you haven't already please rate us and review us an apple podcasts or stitcher it helps other people find the show at helps us in the rankings at helps us feel just a little bit better about ourselves, and if you haven't already how a friend about the show, tell a home body about this show, tell someone who loves ship lab about the show. Until. Next time I'm my answer and I'm Jill, enter Greenberg. Thank you so much for listening. I love when you do terms and conditions apply. One just so good at that. She makes its home very efficient used to do like commercial over Brandon. You might know me from my Allegra Radio ad where I play a woman with a stuffy nose who doesn't WanNa. Go. skiing. Stitcher. By the book is supported by help in counseling. We are in extraordinary times add needless to say some of us are struggling with stress anxiety depression you name it you're not alone better. Help is here and they offer online licensed professional counselors who are trained to listen and help you better help counselors specialize in many areas including relationship conflict, anxiety, depression, loss trauma, and. You'll securely connect with your counselor in a safe confidential online environment. Simply fill out a questionnaire to help assess your needs and get matched with the counselor in under forty eight hours. I love that you can easily schedule secure video and phone sessions with your therapist and exchange unlimited messages, and of course, if you're not happy with the counselor, you get paired with, you can request a new at any time at no charge I'm kristen I'm going to be real with you in these times I have been very reliant on therapy and in particular all forms of. Therapy on the Internet better help has been doing this remotely from the very beginning. So they know what they're doing. It's true better help as an affordable option and our listeners get ten percent off your first month with the discount. Code bt be joined the over one million people already using better help in fact. So many people have been using better hope that they're recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states get started today at better help dot com slash bt be that's better. H E L P dot com slash be talked to a therapist online and get help.

Joanna Gaines Home Office kristen facebook Oscar Mayer Jennifer Holland US Kristen HP Jolanta Canada spotify Stephen partner instagram Marie I. Steve Levin Joe Linda
Neal Brennan

I Weigh with Jameela Jamil

1:02:47 hr | 9 months ago

Neal Brennan

"UNSPOILED is back for season two, Paul and amy tackle the one hundred, and now they're making their own list starting with back to school movies. Check out the first episode on mean. Girls Right now on stitcher apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello is Jamilla Mill. If you want to listen to I way without ads and support me and the show directly the only way to do that is by signing up for stitcher premium just go to stitch a premium dot com or the premium tab, and you'll stitch up and sign up with the Promo Code I way to get a free month stitcher premium you'll get free listening I way and all your favorite Air Wolfenstein shows and you'll be directly supporting me on the show and I love it when you do that that stitcher premium dot Com Promo, code I way for a free month of premium listening. Thank you. It won't take long to figure out that I just think differently than other people. There Stephen Dubner and that's my freakonomics friend and CO author. Steve Levin I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena human behavior in weird circumstances but Lebed is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called people I mostly admire listen on stitcher apple podcasts, spotify or where every injured podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of Iway with Gina Djamil Hope. You're right I'm all right. We're not talking about natural disasters and and politics anymore because it's very stressful and this is not where we go to have conversation You come here to escape I come here to escape. We're going to run away together I. Love Today's episode. I'm so excited about the two things I'm bringing you today. First and foremost my incredibly funny and wonderful poignant guest, Neal Brennan. He is a great stand up comedian. He's also the CO creator of the Chapelle Show, which is arguably one of the most influential and. Brilliant comedy shows off all time He made the special that's on net flex. A couple of years ago called three Mike's, and it is this incredible combination of. Both funny stand up and social innovation but also heartbreaking honesty and sincerity around trauma as a child and how that goes onto shape the rest of your life and probably led him to being a stand up comedian So he's on this show being funny and cantankerous overly opinionated the Neil that I know and love and we went all kinds of stupid and then heartbreaking places and he even surprised me with how vulnerable he was willing to be on this podcast and we still don't see that enough for men. So I'm so grateful for him because. We all need to be soothed. We all need to figure out, and so I welcome I. Welcome that conversation on my platform can't wait to hear what you think. But before I play Neal's episode in his chat with I'm going to play you a song don't worry. This is not my song I would never try to. Infuse a new singing career through this platform I would never put you through that nobody nobody asked for that and I I know it but I have come across this incredible song that is out today and it's about everything that we talk about on this show and it's such a good. So like an actual good song and it's very rare that one gets the rights to music. The artist name was cookie music has given me that because I've asked for it because I think you might actually genuinely like I know this is a fucking weird intrusive thing to do to force. You listen to song own you can fast forward but I suggest you don't because this almost so good it's it's about mental health, but it's from the point of view of someone watching someone else suffer is all of the helplessness we can feel at times and the love. And the empathy and solidarity, and also sometimes a little bit of the struggle. We feel when we don't know how to help and that saw that no way stigmatizes or as meant to shame or make anyone feel self conscious around their mental health it just meant so much to me as someone who has both been carer of mentally ill people but also very much. So the recipient of other people's care I depended on other people to save my life at times and so. It just. Is Infused with empathy and I feel like that's everything that I tried to out into the world and encouraged from all of us, and so his name was cookie music. The song is called I. Know It's fucking great. and. I'm not GonNa make a habit of doing this. I promise is just because the song is a special so. Enjoy. The song, and then enjoy my good friend the extremely funny and grumpy Neal Brennan. quotient Home. School. Food. Quite done. I can't. I can't away from the MIC. Sip Away from the MIC. Sir. Wow. Wow Welcome. Hold on I'm might. came. Thought Stuart. Sorry my use my mouth for stuff. Okay. Like eating and sipping for instance talking now it goes both. Welcome to the show how we? Why nobody said like how you? But it sounded like I was on trial a little bit as my accent. Okay. I know I know what it was. All right. Yeah. Yes. I've been great. I'm trying to think of what. I mean, how broad you WanNa go no I just WANNA know generally fuel right? Yeah. Good. Good good and this is a podcast that's about mental health. It's about shame. And something that you talk about. In fact, that's how we found each other. Well, I found you I hunted. Neil has. Netflix show called three Mike's, and it's one of my favorite comedy sets. I've ever seen. Much I watched it a couple of years ago and related to a lot of the things that he said because it's very personal. It's it's not just comedy show. It's also a kind of backstory as to why you are the way that you are an inspiration. Yeah. Exactly. It's resting Dick face I just I mean, no one's called it that but that's yeah that's the male version resting bitch face. Okay. Great. Well, I I saw this special and I cold emailed Neil. Yes. She call she called she got. I used to write with the show runner creator of the good place. Mike. Fifteen years ago, and so he put you in touch. He gave you my email I saw your name didn't look you up just thought you were some lady on a shot in. No I don't know who you are didn't talk just some lady on a show. Yes. At that point, you were just some late show. Then I said like, Hey, come to the comedy store look me up or getting tell me and you're left behind the store at the time. Yes. So A few weeks later you much later I'm calling Garcia Pretty. Like the whole point of the show. I you know and. then. I finally you said you were going to counter I. looked you up turns out your tall and good looking. which is one of my things I like good looking people. And especially, women guys I could take. I. Mean I think it probably helps if they're good looking I like a guy to be aesthetically look like something we'll day you know. And and I looked you up good-looking then you come with some a guy. Who will call? We'll call like a gangly gentleman show. That I. Am sure he love it. and. I didn't know in La people have like relationships I don't know if that's your trainer of that's your voice coach I don't know if that's your your healer bring my trainer to. Nothing Lady I just knew that you were good looking. Maybe gangly. Got Hill wrap them up with his long octopus limbs. And so I'm speaking to him and say he's I you go to the bathroom. This guy goes like I watched three Mikes as well and I thought it was fantastic brilliant. I think it was. So you know he's British and and I was like Oh you what are you doing? He's like I'm a musician and and you know everyone in La's musician. So I go you got got a ban. Could not have been work on. What are you solo with what? Exactly what's what's your name is James Blake like. All right. Well, I thought I was going to be able to put the moves on your girlfriend, but you're a better artists than me as I was a fan of his and and that was it was like checkmate Mike All Right well, because certain musicians you listen to and you go man, they must girls must. Go nuts and James is one of them Oh. That's nice. Well, that's that's I. Think it's been quite happy ending altogether I've made moves on we ended up not banging with become very good friends I. Don't think banging would help. Help Walk Anything. Our relationship for sure. Definitely. Not Definitely wouldn't help your relationship with my boyfriend no, no I'm saying he does. Yeah. Of. Course he does. He dies and then you. The other employees? Saying. Face. Every guy has like a scenario and. He dies I gotta be your top. Five. Consoler. Right. And And then one night you say late one thing leads to another I. Listen it would hurt I don't think it would hurt or help. Agreed. Doesn't. By now, we're on this I. Don't know like we're pretty tight great and I'm happy that you're my friend now. Yes. So it was the fat in your in your netflix special. You had referred all these referred to all these different things that you done to overcome your PTSD or anxiety depression. You've struggle with your mental health, the most of your life. Okay. So having seen, you've gone through all of these different processes to try and get rid of them some of which will still trying now. I had one the Athol you would benefit from I. Emailed you. We've become friends, and so I wanted to also say once on Arabs privately. You Oh one of my favorite people for the fact that you spend. So much of your career also being very open about your mental health I. Think it's really cool and really important back in the day when you were coming up when you were younger Aidid, you even know you had depression and be if you did did you feel like it was something you could really open up to people about back. Then in the ninety S, we called it a new. York attitude. Depression was a New York attitude and then it became. And then it became. In New York. That wouldn't it to someone yeah. That's The New York. Grind. Small angry to press on getting your whole like everybody lives in a little Kennel. And So. You're the. And then PROZAC became popular early nineties. And more antidepressant like that. PROZAC was the first big one. There was the first mainstream it wasn't like. Lithium or anything that was for bipolar it was it was it was like just for. People, you know prescribed it more. That's almost the I would say that I dare say that's the upside of the Pharma Industry as it can mainstream. I mean look at what they did for restless leg. They took it. They, really took it mainstream. Now, I'm one of the leading. COMEDIANS. No but I. But so then slowly Richard and I started going to therapy and ninety nine and of taking a loft and was pretty open with people I've talked to about it and they I was I never hidden it I've never. I'm fairly I'm the youngest of ten kids and. The older people in my family, my older brothers and sisters. Are More. Mike what are you doing? What is that? GonNa take this forever that kind of thing because there they would feel more shame around it and I'm an artist. So it's not. It's not like you know I don't work it A. For insurance broker I'm not. There's no. You did come up in a A. Status Quo chauvinist industry especially back then the comedy scene especially, the comedy scene you within like there's a lot of. Toxic masculinity absolutely. But I don't. But I think that depression is one of those things where people like I'm depressed as a joke set up right? So there was no. Today, there was zero taboo around and. It was it was sort of. It was it wasn't. Tab and then I found doing the show That This is Mike's doing three Mike's I realized like. Has Something I. Just said mind I so to speak it was. It was like Oh. Yeah, everybody. So then people. Is. D M every day probably about how much it meant to them how much it helped them. People have tried different therapies because at three Mike's. One woman quit her job, which is really all you want. She's almost she died homeless. But before she died, she was a big fan of mine and that's all that matters. Goodnight everybody have a great podcast. So so yeah, it's very helpful and I'm sure that all these people found me helpful because I was very open about it was that much comfort because i. fucking loved the VAT went there. There's just to explain to anyone seen three microphones on one of the microphones. Neil does regular stand up on one of them. He does He goes back into his life story and his incredibly honest and open about his journey through mental health and trauma, and then third Mike is one liner. So Any people did any people resist three Mike's where anyone found it to be a bummer because it was a comedy set when? People that like think it's a cop out probably comedians probably think it's a combat like million viewed the. Brave a toll. Well, it's not. It's not that it's not brave. It's that it's not. Purely. GLIB standup. Yeah like you know what I mean and and so but now having said that I thought Seinfeld would not like it for that reason and he was like, no I thought it was like people felt well. But what I'm saying is like he is a he is an actual person boy, but he's also believes. I just thought he would be like the classic stereotypical. I need stand done this way. Yeah and you didn't reach the formula. They didn't do it. Yeah. I. Didn't do it but I did a lot of it did for thirty five minutes of it, but there's another twenty of of. Somebody's tried so many different things I mean take me through roughly the things that you've tried just it's like listen Medication. Zoloft my main medication. I took pride for ten years and it kind of stop working then I. Then I tried a few other ones in those the family that just said, weird side effects when they were sexual or gain weight without eating sexual side effects, you become more sexual. I was I became irresistible to win out. To the point that it really was a huge. It was a huge. Eat from from my life. and. I mean people would win would jump on my car when I was just driving. My. Like I was giving off a musk. Musk my favorite word for male of attraction. Then that the the sort of wacky ones. Ketamine. Which I did not like did not work at all some people think I liked it I did not like it. Now having said that. There are people that D-. That they tried it and it was the only that worked for them. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of dealing with the shame of it just try I'll try anything I. Don't I'm so agnostic about. What's going to work or what does it say about me if it works or what is it I don't know. What did you try like healing and Ricky? Did. Nothing. For Okay Which? which was the one that you promoted I did the one that really worked for me for a long time was a t M S, which is Trans Cranial magnetic stimulation, which is basically A. They put a thing on your head that looks like a we'll call it a table tennis racket. And it. Sends. Magnetic. IBM's in your head clicking fashion nats Kinda weird. Okay. It doesn't hurt. That forty five sessions of that. Work really well though. ZIP known back on. So often I, I did a few months ago. That was I think it worked as well and then it right to bring up. What you went to China to that was. That was that was better tms Chinese Tamas it was a it was A. It was. A different. Table tennis racket. On a different region, my brain because in America, they only do the left side. and. I. Don't know I don't I believe that's. It's the most no it's like the one that's most kind of approved and studied. In China, they did the back and the right. And the left are they didn't even do the lab because the left was good. So. They did the back in the right in. China. What did that feeling again the same It was I. had them crank it up? which was I showed you the videos hilarious faces shaking, which scares people it wasn't scared was funny. So your face will not shake I. Don't want to put that out there. You'll face might shake and you'll be fine year or it'll checks forever. Didn't shake it just Shaked when the clicker was going just sitting on the washing machine. Yeah sure it's fine. Sure. Hard. Interested in the washing machines that effective have you seen? Have you noticed a difference since he tried the one in China. I'm not sure yet. I don't want to say I have because I want to be like, yes I don't with it like I. said I don't want to be like I'm in love when someone's you know can a hello everyone we're getting married I don't know. I. It seemed like it work but I can't say for sure. MD are really work though and I have a funny story about. You and amd are so my friend Bijon. I've been friends with since nineteen. I'm sorry, two, thousand, three he was my editor. Chapelle show at three mice whatever whatever. So. He's in the same. Like tries everything he tried marriage for depression he tried everything. and. and. And none of it worked, and then I mentioned your name and passing won like three. I'm so obsessed with you. He said WHO is trying to in my house. Oh this shrine and I said try because it's an Indian. Racist and And I, and he goes Jamila British chick and I go. Yeah and he's like you know I do emt are because of her what are you talking about and he goes she was on Russell Brand's podcasts and brought it up. And he transformed his life to the point where punchline this week he said he's going to become an emt, our therapist and quit editing. Really get so easy see doesn't someone quitting their job really todd really changes they really. Yes say. He's really is going to quit editing. To become an emt our therapist. Yes. So for anyone who doesn't know MTR is movement desensitization reprocessing it's the type of therapy. It's very effective for PTSD, it's affected for. OCD addiction all kinds of different things but it's very hard to find a very good to cure for PTSD or any kill whatsoever and. Of all of the things amd are I would almost say, don't even look it up as you can't. It sounds like there's no way that works. Yeah. Sounds fucking stupid almost sounds offensive as to whatever it is that you've been through that. You need therapy for it feels absurd that something quite so simple would help you with that thing, but I can tell you from my personal. that. It's the thing that saved my life. So MD, we're going to go to a break. If, you're someone who like me house a lot to learn about other people from different communities in this world, then you should perhaps check out my new youtube channel I've created an extension of. The instagram channel and a bit like this Poe 'cause I created this safe space for all of us to learn, and so I am interviewing actors and writers an autism and. Doctors all around the world and asking them everything. The I would like to know about how to support and understand other people from different experiences to mine. So if you want come along and learn with me than join me on my youtube channel, that's just go to youtube forward Slash Jamila And we can learn together. I know it's embarrassing thirty-four-year-old started a youtube channel but fuck it. So so similarly to you, I'm always kind of Johnny to see where I can get to my mental health like I've been through extreme anxiety, extreme depression, PTSD etc. I think you and I are probably two of the most people that I have a friend do a similar to me as you are and you and I struggle and if you if is it okay if I say this but we struggle with feelings of all the time Oh yes. Yes. So that's something that we. That you may not have the which is. I have a penis. Bomb. No would may not have which is. I'm also. Sensitive. And not. You Win James would say it's all ego based, but I would say it's I'm really sensitive. Like I really am like up sensitive little. Baby. Like everything bothers me. But this is in pisses you off hurts my feelings. Feelings a lot of things hurt my feelings that you. There's no way that hurt feelings. Because I generally speaking synthesize it into anger. So quickly, you wouldn't know it I was hurt. For a second. But yeah everything like any snob any slight any look any like real like I I'm not. One of these people who nothing bothers me May Look like nothing by twitter very nothing bothers me and sort of a bit thinking. It's funny when other people get so bothered by stuff. Well I think that most people I don't when things are when people are actually bothered by I think there's things that are worth getting bothered by and then I think there are mostly it's just the. Internet. I mean, that's like. The only way to get traction on on twitter is to be. Provocative or like little. Favorites. I don't use twitter. To create outrage. No but that's the that's that's hey, you're gaming the algorithm. That is how that's how it works. Yeah. So when they go, there is an outrage on twitter. Yeah. That's where that's that's traffic. There's booties clapping at the Strip club. That's one. That's that's what happens that the airplanes are taken off at the airport I feel quite. Jealous that you that your feelings get hurt. Kemalist. Doesn't happen to me and I think some people think of it as Oh i. Am so tough and I'm so brave and don't get bothered by the people saying things about me publicly or even privately, but it really doesn't make a dent and I think that's because I'm because my damage makes me so desensitized I'm genuinely I don't. This is why I never wear. It's like a badge of honor that I'm uninterested in other people's opinions of me. I'm just a genuine. You don't give a fuck and I would like to see that it's a strength especially in my choice of career. And but having said that I bet james can hurt your feelings. James can hurt my feelings not snow. He doesn't hurt my feelings as much sometimes in the past may angry. Not Yes that's A. Remember specific time. Okay Great It's been awhile. It's been awhile but James, isn't so much hurt my feelings I don't get my i. think my feelings got so hurt as a child that there's like I've had so many withdrawals. Failings, there are no deposits though I am bankrupt. It doesn't really happen. But okay. So aside from that, though a you romantic person. In the technical classical way. Yes Oh. Yes. Yes. The short answer is. I think I. cried through. Watching marriage story. Okay and during the trial, why did you cry during marriage story I'll tell you. Okay. During. The trial I literally thought I don't think I could do this I I would be so crushed by an ex. Wife. Using a lawyer. To make me seem. Awful for. To get custody of a thing that she knows I. Love. A Kid. Or you know and then there's the whole thing like I've had guys tell me that they're y guys that are successful TV people telling that their wives said when they got divorced that they came up with plots that are just not true. Doesn't so not true Mike from. Lives came up with plots for sitcoms that they were. Up like, no. That episode was before I met like just crazy credit that I would just like. But. The thing of having a lawyer slam me to make me a bad father would would just about break me and then. The letter thing. That letter at the beginning of it and when they're talking about all the things grains. I've been love three times and it was amazing. And The when those ended. They all. Really hurt my feelings. They really. It was very emotional about it like it was like one of them I was like crying all the time for like a month. Me Neil brand. Crying L. Time now but I like I was demolished by. So. I think I'm I want I want I would like to. Be in a long term romantic relationship I. Just at this point, I would agnostic about it because I'm like I don't see much proof of a I'm not jealous very many relationships year in one of them. Thank. It's not what James. which was you? Know like you're in one of them but this is not a long list, five, five couples maybe and. And but I I sometimes I think that many women are really poorly matched for relationships. And the other thing I will say about it is the the the thing in relationships that. I don't think a lot of attention which is the ways you break your own heart. Like. Well. Can't can't do it. Like you think that your those people that is healthy enough to be in a relationship and you can work things out and you can, and despite your best efforts with someone that you palpably love, you cannot do it. and. That's your fault. Also. I. Think if you're not sorted out, you already assess who is the correct person for you. I'm yeah. Yeah. Either friend cool. Brett Goldstein and he talks about the fact that you know his he's an easy single. He can't seem to find anyone and he gets endlessly frustrated by this because assistant who's younger than him is happily married with two kids as a perfect fairy tale life and the Oeste, why is it that you think I'm still single and she said well, I think it's because you always go for the ten years go for the ten not of looks. But of excitement that feeling where you eat I don't sleep I'm I'm. GonNa we'RE GONNA go and starve together to death naked in a field. Holding each other and that's just going to be how this ends whereas she thinks that you should go for the sixth. The person you just makes you feel like a light bulbs but generally quite safe but obviously films. Music especially, meatloaf. Have manipulated us. Otherwise books that we have to feel this incredibly. Overwhelming level of excitement and anxiety, and she said that feeling his fight or flight that is your body telling you to run away because you're being triggered you to a triggering each other that's what that feeling is and so instead you should go for the feeling of safety and build from that six up to ten and I had I not been in that kind of relationship now, which is the healthiest and best relationship I've been not to rub it in you're already jealous but. I I would have thought that was bullshit because of how much we've been programmed to think that we need to have all of the feelings. Do you think you a tool manipulated by? Movie and books and songs MEATLOAF. As it made me. All of us. But I I will say that the really good ones I was in two of the three. I felt really lucky to met the person and I felt like a real connection. Great. Yeah. Okay. In one of them yeah okay. Yeah I did but then you go well. Do, I even have a working blackbox the where I can even even after the crash can i. Am I equipped to even. unpack what happened like maybe I'm not. Healthy. Enough to even know what happened. Do you think someone has to be healthy in order to get into a relationship? Would you think it's okay if they can get into a relationship and then start work on things together. I think you just have to be willing to work on yourself at whatever time that is I think that's a prerequisite of a healthy relationship is that if you're bringing your your mortgage in this relationship from your past, you have to be willing to unpack it. I mean, I drill the thing that the other thing that people don't bring up about relationships is the amount of luck required is. Breathtaking Fact that you met James Is. The fact that your who you are, we have oil of. Totally Great. But I'm saying the the I think about the women, the best one I was in and it was pure. Like luck basically. They know this person and Social Circle stuff that you're probably all similar a lot of ways but. The right time, the right and the amount of things that need to line up correctly. In. It where you are in your life I agree. But that could also that's also applied to like everything about our lives. Lucky the. Lucky. But. I'm lucky that I have. Haven't nate talent right for comedy. Do you know what I mean like? So I know that. So. All that luck for I did this and then that person saw that like that's all that's fairly that's a pretty clear domino. Based on talent right I think we will have an innate capacity for love I do think. that. The yes. You're right. Of course it's very lucky to so much more talent for comedy than I do for love it's going to go twenty two one to twenty one. And there are people who don't anything good comedian. So imagine how. I disagree of course you disagree. Yes. I think I. Think knows wrong and we're going to break copies agree with me. Okay. So you don't have to Marnie mental health. Shame around very much ready but you do you you and I've spoken about this before we feel like you get shamed about your. Life status. Yes because I'm a forty, forty, six years young and. I'm forty six and I've never been married. Right. I've been doing a joke where I say women apparently call it a red flag. The thing about red flags time round your Neck Red Cape. So. So. Yeah. I, and the reason I haven't got married is because I I haven't wanted to fat and I know but that's not enough reason for people that he is some Shin is something is broken. Right Same with child. The assumption is if you don't want kids, there's something. A little bit wrong about you like why wouldn't we all the rest of do what's wrong with you that you don't want to have children Those things make being offensive. I just don't have a lot of. My Life Path has been so. Odd that I don't have a lot of peers and I don't mean that as like I'm peerless I mean like I'm so talented peerless. What I mean is the things that people that's how you and James here. We. Totally Kind of Attila. James is all of his albums. He's about to throw in the trash and then the record company goes neuro will release it. Because he thinks he's a bad musician. That's how people work. So Good for him he yes. So. Okay so I don't have peers in. I. Just feel like a bit of A. I don't really fit in anywhere. There's just a lot of ways would like I don't eat meat which sounds like a small thing. But it's kind of big thing. There's most restaurants. As you're a fucking alien. Yes. I don't really drink. That's a big one. I'm not married I don't have kids have high standards for. Interpersonal Interaction. Right, isn't it? Of Yes yeah. All of these things are to me self evident and ev things that everyone should be doing I mean again meet whatever but being you should be able to have your own standards and make your own choices I think as a man if I'm a serial if I'm dating if I don't get married and in the time I've known you dated a couple of women in. But if if it was a woman, the narrative would be only she's searching for the one whereas. Hang on how the fuck on okay. Wait a forty, six year old woman who single you've got clooney in your corner, right where the of. I thought he three by the way if I tell an Uber driver who is from my country England like Pakistan or India. If I tell them that I am thirty three and I'm not married children, all I get is your art nobody had got audio now. So I, get sort of openly abused. But that's the way it sounds. Documentary. Documentary about. That I mean. Doing the exact accident in which he shouted the. My point. Can I do it? I'm kidding. Exact accent like out in even outside of my culture women in thirty start to fucking panic. I think there are any women just need to this we can. We can relate to the fact that you know if you find yourself single in your thirties, you feel like your eggs drying opinion. By the way why because George Clooney got married a yeah but he's like fifty. Forty six we were still like a Wednesday gonNA find. I am. Has A. Think piece about why he's fucked up. Yeah. Jennifer Aniston think piece like every time. She eats a sandwich gotta she finally pregnant right I. Hope She's pregnant because. I'm not saying that it's better. I'm not saying that my other thing is that you said that it was easier for women be six no one. No one is looking at foot everyone. Happy when Kate. Fuck Pete Davidson this remember that remember that being a victory women a lot of people judge, but the point being that. Happen. Nicholson, was fucking dating excessively strong. It'd be a bit of an issue right but meanwhile came back and said, Fox Davies and it's fucking there's A. Judge's Jack Nicholson's love life that man like as long as you're definitely looked at as more of a boss as a single man later in life than you are as a woman as A. Both correct and I'm more sensitive. Sir. I'm. I think I'm correct. Next what are you? I. Think I definitely got to the point where I was surprised when you told me that people that you knew shamed you about your life status because I'd never come across a man feeling ashamed about being single later in life anything that I'm the I'm just the out there. There are very few situations in which I'm not the outsider, right? And it's not and my point is and I'm doing a show about it. It's like it's I promise you I came to it. The Right Way I've felt the same way you think my observation about the government or gender or race or technology any of the things that I'm. Good at observing. The same brain I applied the same machine to all these things like Nah I don't want kids 'cause I. Don't know if I'd be good at it and or I would or not like it'd be wouldn't be good I. Just don't want to have a kid show up whoops not capable of loving. Sorry roll the dice. Happen. You'll having. Russian. You've tried to tie my tubes I slept over their house when I woke up and she was she had a scalpel Vermont. and Mayor Again, people don't want meant wives don't want me around their husbands is that Oh because they think about infamous? Your average. Eating Vegan bussing all Vegan. Yes vegan. Vegan bar. Raw I some nights ago raw. Raw Raw mostly men or women shaming. Women. And that's because. They. Don't like it. They don't again if they because I'm a threat to this this thing that they've they've created this narrative that a good man is one who gets married and has children and stands. All that an unmarried means? You're a sex addict turn that husband intersects up. Just right. That's interesting. Great? Myers. Into a sex Ed, you have a great you have a great. Not, I'M GONNA call a bit. It's a bit. About why I'm not married not married you. Tell my audience place. It's based on an observation from Bijon? WHO's at one of the top amd are therapist. He. the joke is that. When you ask America, how it is they say they when they responded, it's like reading a hostage letter really hey, man how are things you do in Beca and they're like hello. I am happy. They're like reading a note like like an isis video and and I don't want that for me like that would it would make me so I don't like. I have a quote, my phone, which is some I want to get it right because I don't. It's great because it's also an excuse to take phone. Poor is the man who's pleasure depends on the permission of another. I don't want to ask permission I. Don't WanNa feel. I yelled at a girlfriend one time I don't WanNa feel like a guest in my own life. Like may I do this thing that I was? Probably born to do do you mind if I? And and. And I don't WanNa. Feel. Bad about my inclinations, my habits because they're harmless but. The relationships I've been in a few of them. It's the the my significant others felt like it was an attack on them right and and I think that that's pretty common for relationships. What was the rest of that hostage note? I am happy. Do. Not Worry about me worry about yourself and your heathen lifestyle. She has made me a better man. And then she's in the corner like, Isis. Tell them what else? So. So. So yeah. Like that's and that's like that's the dynamic like she's the boss. There's literally a Sitcom called. Yes. Dear. That's not on the air anymore but like she's very bad I just don't want to feel like. Like I'm beneath somebody. That's all marriage that marriage means being. Think that that's the. Factory setting on marriage. I think that there. If I were to be married, it would not be. I. Agree everything else about your life is unconventional would make marriage whatever you need or want to be a houseboat. Unconventional. What you said about the rationale behind not wanting children is one of my favorite things. The if you've seen the news, so there's there's The climate change is going to be a nightmare, right? Yeah, and that's horrifying and rory twice what Earth's population should be. And I can't remember this much anger or sectarianism in my entire life having a kid now to me would be like being in a house party to pack the people you can't move roof sunfire basements flooding cops are coming to arrest everybody and you look at your friend and you're like, we should invite Bryant. That's what having a kid to me is like like, how are you? What are you? How are you justifying this? I feel bad getting. Amazon packages. And you're like, no, we're bringing a whole another person because I don't know my body wants to sell my buddy wants to off kinds of shit. Yeah. That doesn't make your right now you know how much garbage my body's never wanted to eat a healthy thing in my entire life. Yeah. My Body tells me it's all bad into brunch with you want. You've seen what I do a lot of syrup guys. It's all I'm GONNA say gets you can get pretty graphic. So. So yes, I the marriage. Marriage and kids are kind of off the table. Marriage is marriage is not able. Now having said that every married guy no at some point has come up to me and whispered like an inmate don't get married unless you WANNA. Have Kids. Literally like Senate like whisper like do not get married. What were they don't move the lips right. Like I. Don't know what their secret is. But. They've all got it. No I I feel the same way I feel like a lot of the people that I know who are married are unhappy currently but again and I, think that's because we're not encouraged the work or because we've been manipulated into making the wrong versus just the. Marriage. I don't really see one. Take what's the advantage? Is a great advantage to a lifelong love and there are tax incentives to marriage. Yes. Incentives. Everyone ice creams, deliver. I WANNA. Eat Ice Cream for the rest of my life. Yeah. Do I want to sign a contract where if I don't WANNA eat ice cream I to give ice cream half of my money? No, I. Don't know I feel like James Blake was your ice cream euboea right with it. CUT The out. Come out. fucking cut that out. It's just saying it's going to know that. That's again I don't but it's not a matter of the ice cream. It's not amount of who or what the ice cream is. It's just a matter of for me. What's the advantage of its? Medieval Insurance Policy for the less successful persons also consumer escom. Adore we're on the same page very much. So here, I don't really care in there about marriage. The two things that make me care about marriage. Number one as a cool tax incentive I think is cool as I was saying earlier second of which you probably already got as a INC person. More. I don't think so. Second of all. Second of all I, I get afraid of in medical dramas of which I watch a lot when they're like when someone wants to come into the room during an emergency well, all you family in that situation I would want to be able to be in the room in an emergency. you don't want to be in the room during the emergence, the emergency fine but having just gotten a colonoscopy a month and a half ago. Were you there because I was out? My point is I don't care who's there in the when I'm when I'm under I, don't care. You wouldn't you want to be a net if you'll beloved was in trouble if it meant something to them I would but I don't I also think it's a weird thing to want your family to watch you die. Like AK, you want to see the most horrifying. To Room four eighty, you don't always die. If you make it through and you want someone just my friend of ice chips my phone. Just. Don't separate that. That's marrying I'm married. Why do they where aggressive violent agreeing in every? Direction on this, like we neither of us at Tortoise. Because the accent and the hair great. I like the idea of a long time love and by. The horrifying Indian stereotype again. I. I believe in a longtime love because I like the idea of having a witness to my life. And so that's something that I think is great benefit. But no, of course, the contractual side of things it's ridiculous her view. Of John You're heartbroken. Side when a relationship index, you're losing a friend but I, don't think I've ever had my heartbroken I've never been left the here's what I'll say. That's really sad. So we're in the third. Mike. Right now. So, thank just when you said the witness to your life thing, right I've had a people that I really loved right men and women. and. There are a lot of almost every situation when you break up with them, you realize that a thing you shared. You didn't share. Meaning, they had a very different point of view on at the new did and a lot of time. In in the writing. Area. I've written with Chapelle and and sure mostly. The. So in in those cases, it was like a thing that I thought something they had completed for point of view on it a thing. A thing in my life that we share with the woman. They had a lot of feelings than I. I'm. Not, GonNa say they were they were noxious, but they were kind of like oh That's a fucking bummer. Showing. You only find that. Afterward and and. So I hope for that sake that you and James. Stay together forever. That's that was what I was. That was what I liked about the. The marriage story thing was that their perception of their marriage was were really different and that's the thing that's so. Painful right to me like I could. I could cry about it in twenty seconds if I had to if you turn the lights down. Nobody I it really. That's the thing more probably more than anything. Yeah. That when you feel like you have this shared thing with somebody. Yeah and you and it's just like. Man That nobody else thought that or not it's not. Dispersing that. Yeah, and it starts you know my did my dad being the most obvious example. Oh, I thought we were father and some. Yeah you thought we were competitors. So you thought I was a nuisance or you thought I was all these other things I was hoping I'll man. You could see why that saying that I'm your son. So. That and that would be the things that. Probably, the most painful things in my life were. Thinking something was something and then finding out it's like finding out the that. The beginning of the third act of every. Teen Romantic comedy where it's like no, that was a bet. Yeah. Now, she was only with you because. She. Got, paid to be with you because. Like like that when when you think that you're in that goes back to the fairness thing goes back to a lot of things but. By that to me is the biggest heartbreak of a relationship ending is that you both had a completely different perception of what it was how how's your time on this podcast Ben? Grade. Same Way. I actually think. That's an how. About About. About the heartbreak yeah. That's that I don't think he ever talked about in public. But Not really I mean that's a big one for me I. think that's probably big one for everybody but. Check the comments seem it is definitely suggest that like for anyone. It's definitely better to be on your own in an unhappy relationship just because you think. You should be in a relationship because you think you need someone societal status, Marc. Maron the comedian podcasters said. We're talk I think he said it in conversation 'cause I got married. Because I just wanted to feel like I was alright. He's wanted to feel like I'm still married to that person he no I thank God or the one after that. Off. Yeah like he's tried twice. That's the biggest bummer about relationships in it. Is that you thought it was one thing and it turns out like Oh wait you weren't. That's there's no town there but that's not a reason to not then look for them. Absolutely. Not I think that's the. That's the end of of stand go. That's the. That's my favorite romantic comedies are Annie Hall and Eternal Sunshine. And A the apartment because. They all end with this note of. It doesn't really work. But I got gotta try. It's not it's not healthy. It's not. How the hell are, but it's very difficult. It's the the attrition rate is like ninety, nine point nine percent. and. De. GotTa. That's the hope. Springs eternal like. You gotta try. Serena Williams said, that would have been a great point. You can still use it. One time I was talking. Serena Williams, the tennis by. Shooting somewhere there one time, and this is like five years ago and I was saying like relationships are impossible. Could there like climbing Mount Everest and she goes no they're not because people can actually climb Mt Everest. which is like, all right. That's that's very funny thing for someone who's not a comedian writer to say. So the point of Serena's great well, Serena's will say happily married now. So that's what I'm saying like. Complete. Defeated cynic and like. And still found some got lucky. got. Lucky I mean what are the odds set the she's A. Black woman professional tennis by WHO GREW UP IN COMPTON and she ends up marrying some. White Tack Guy. Who started read it? You know what I mean or I think he started like what? That's just luck and they work so far you know. There's just so much chance to it and. But that's the that's the. That's the romantic part is thinking that it could. That's what it's for most people. Yeah. But for us, it's different. Okay. So I guess we'll just jury's out. We'll see if if neil finds. Find some some love some witness action. Wrong you say that I'm a romantic based on. Yeah. Boy I if only the fact that you've got hope in spite of the fact that that's how you felt looking back on previous relationships in itself implies that your romantic it's like the show me a cynic and I'll show you heartbroken optimistic. Yeah. I. Love that was this we'll say but I would let you to know I don't care if you ever get married and have babies I just care if you that's purely. If you do. It confirms its. Confirmed your book. No I just hope that if you get married, just marry someone annoying to come to my house now want okay fine. Oh, great. I would like to say that a big win I date women yeah. At. A certain point I do think can I bring? Them Up to James and Jamaica's and I you think I'm kidding it's a really good barometer fucking straight. Yeah. Because I'm not gonNA bring someone unfunny into my house. No. In, two, thousand four. Me and Amy Poehler and Rashida. Jones and Seth Meyers used to go out to the club. Every Thursday. And I brought a woman, I was dating one week and then the next week they got like she was a dud don't bring her around. Bipolar pulled me aside just like she was you can't bring her up. All right can we just declare people duds? Yes, and apparently we can one hundred percent I've learned to learn the hard way now brandon, what do you weigh? I weigh a hundred and fifty four pounds as of this morning. In a classic way. It'll say. Is Crossing. Sick twenty, four months ago. How would you fucking some yourself up neal? I am I way I Class I don't get it. I Laney I don't get it. I. Wait I way. A. Way. My. I weigh my beliefs and I weigh. My. My my map. and. I weigh my code that's what I weigh I weigh my coat I have a code that I've that I've over. Forty six years I've developed. That is works for me and it's my it's my code. It's my belief system. It's My. Expectations it's all that stuff. That's what I weigh. I weigh my code and that goes to. That hopefully covers everything I do. Great. Thanks. For coming on the podcast tell your inspiring everyone about love. I mean. Jokic. Thank you I. Love You. Thank you so much for listening to this week's away would also like to thank the team which helps make this caused produces via jennings and Kimmy Lucas my editor Andrew. Khasan. My Boyfriend, James Blake made the beautiful music you're hearing. Now I'm May to my work. I tell you why would love to hear from you and show what you way at the end of this book cost you can leave us a voicemail at one, eight, one, eight, six, six, zero, five, four, three or email us what you weigh I weigh Poe Cost A. G. Mail DOT COM, and remember it's not impounds in kilos it till social contributions to society or just how you define yourself in life. Here's another message from one of our listeners I want to tell you what I weigh. I. Weigh being honest in every situation I way working personal development even though it is a taboo subject I way being unable to dead lift one hundred K. G. I. Waving unashamedly single for seven years I way being emotionally and financially independent I living the life I want not what society tells me I should.

James Blake Mike Neil Depression Mikes twitter PTSD netflix tennis China Neal amd Neal Brennan Stephen Dubner Amy Poehler spotify America Steve Levin Chapelle Serena Williams
Rachel Cargle

I Weigh with Jameela Jamil

1:14:36 hr | 9 months ago

Rachel Cargle

"UNSPOILED is back for season two Paul and amy tackle the one hundred, and now they're making their own list starting with back to school movies. Check out the first episode on Mean Girls Right now on stitcher apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello is Jamilla. Well, if you want to listen to I way without ads and support me and the show directly the only way to do that is by signing up for stitcher premium just go to stitch a premium dot com or the premium tab, and you'll stitch up and sign up with the Promo Code I way to get a free month stitcher premium, you'll get free listening I way and all your favorite. Shows, and you'll be directly supporting me on the show and I love it when you do that that stitcher premium dot, com Promo Code I way for a free month of premium listening. Thank you. It won't take long to figure out that I just think differently than other people. There Stephen Dubner and that's my FREAKONOMICS FRIEND AND CO author Steve Levin I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena human behavior in weird circumstances but Lebed is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called people I mostly admire listen on stitcher apple podcasts spotify or where every injured podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of I way with tomatoes mill. Hope you're right. I'm okay I'm a bit discombobulated because I've gone back to proper work as in on camera massive sound stage two, hundred members of crew type work, and it wasn't two hundred members but they were sort of scattered around this giant production and so you know they kept by all the regulations and I had to have about fifteen cova tests in all of the day's coming up to filming but I feel so odd being out of my house and I really just don't know how to respond to anyone and it feels so weird because everyone's like has my gear and of spraying everything you touch and. Is. A. Inducing, and also there is just the fear of shape. Do I remember how to do any of this? I bet he know how to dry my hair anymore because I've just been such a dirty little scumbag for for six or seven glorious months and I was really getting comfortable in lockdown and so two now have to go out an adult again just feels terrible a and so I was I was filming this huge show with one of the biggest pop stars in the world and it was very cool and it's going to be out in a couple of months but I walked on them just so. Out of place and just taking everything in and trying to figure out how am I going to remember how to do this arm? I going to remember how to be on camera I'm hermit this these poker really the only thing that I've done. So you guys have been my salvation, you're the only reason steele. I can't even say the words now I'm still able to carry us towards but I walked in and all these people are around and you just feel like you're an outer space and I'm looking at this pop star and she's sitting beautifully poised on this gorgeous stage. The decorations are amazing and the stages enormous and I don't realize that she's sort of surrounded by a six. Feet wide and six feet deep entire moat that goes around her entire stage because obviously that would look very beautiful on camera. But because I wasn't concentrating 'cause, I wasn't thinking I in my rush to go over and greet her on my anxiety. I. Didn't notice that I was about to step into all of the water and so fully dressed in the owning outfit that I had. I just stepped straight into the moat and got my entire outfit and self soaked. Everything apart from my hair I'm because I had no other close I just had to sit and do the entire filming soaking wet once I had been extracted. From this sort of pool that was around us. So that felt as terrible as humanly. Possible Classic Me Classic made be soaking wet. And just make such a tweet at at of myself. The second I walk in I big to work what a great confidence boost but yeah Filled. So if you to a feeling like you have devolved during this pandemic, then you are not alone are picked up zero new skills. I. Have just lost skills definitely social skills. So we're in this together we're adaptable. We'll get there in the end, but humoring feels ridiculous anyway. So that was my shit week I I'm very happy to bring you a chat. With. One of my favorite humans on the Internet name is Rachel cockle. She is an unbelievable activist and cater and speaker and writer. She is someone who has taught me so much about the experience of black women in America and Misawa and the true history that we don't read about history books of her culture of that journey of the United States and what the. Current systems of aggressions microaggressions aw I've been following half maybe three or four years, and we've been friends for most of that time. We became friends over skype after having spent a lot of time deeming each other many years ago, and she's been a great ally and she's such an example to me of how much women can hold each other up because she and. I are supporters of one another, and we are there to hear each other out one of us going through something because activism is bloody hard and also can be such a weirdly competitive space. So to find other women who recognize what you're going to recognize when you are facing hardship allies or smear campaigns, which both of us are subjected too especially as women of color. It it's such a relief she so cool and just. So eloquent and there's something so poetic about the way that she talks and she's just she's just magic and I feel so lucky to be able to have her on this podcast she has all these great resources that you can find a line and I, really want you to follow her. She's called Rachel cargoes at Rachel. Cocoa. And she's got a bunch of other instagram accounts that are also education Glatt forms. I truly think. And I feel like this happened. So rarely that she's going to be someone who we remember for the rest of time who quote forever she's kind of up there as one of those great thinkers as she came onto taught me. So openly about her life, her journey, her existence as a black woman in America what racism feels like where white women and this is an attack on. White women of it, where white women can't step up as is and can be careful of their own internalised misogyny Wa and be careful of their own microaggressions. This is definitely a learning episode and we are in no way ever trying to hurt anyone or otherwise anyone with just trying to make sure that we will have these important and difficult conversations and we also talk I. Love. About Joyful proclamation that she doesn't wish to be a mother and she has instagram account, which is for women who have decided not to have children that just going to be fun to their friends and their relatives, kids, and instead spend that money and time on their own adventures, and so you should do whatever you want in this life but the abundance of joy when she talks about is just so fun. It's a great instagram account I just can't wait feeds me, I'm GonNa shut up and just let me listen to the icon hustle. Rachel Capo. It's only Rachel cargo on my bloody podcast. Hi Welcome to I weigh. Inc. Yo finally I know it's taken us a long time in the making you and I have known each other a while now I think we're going on two years. Did We? Where are we going for our anniversary? On the Internet. So this is perfect for us to be doing this. Wish you were here. I would love to hang out with you in person but. I believe you and I had some sort of a skype two years ago. That wasn't a first date I remember now. Have Been Trudy. One of the most illuminating follows I've Ever Been Lucky enough to stumble upon. I cannot tell you how much I've learned from you. How much inspiration I've drawn from you how much you've taught not only me but also many of my friends and. This is long before the last couple of months where I think millions, millions of people have found your voice but for years. Now you have been a source of pulling no punches of maintaining such sturdiness in your stance and just being so factual and educational, and unlike most people I've ever seen on the Internet. So I I just WANNA start off by saying anyone who has not already following Rachel cargo do it she has about forty five brilliant instagram accounts all of which I. I'm to this ghost. And and she's just one of the truly wonderful speakers and educators around. Rachel I. Thank you so much giving me your time because I know that this is a few for that incredible introduction. These follow be around go in front of you and introduced. ME. I'm serious. So much of where I draw my there are times where I get told that I'm too much or I'm I'm being too brazen or I'm my sticking out too much or I'm not being soft enough in my ability to not in my ability and my attempt at holding people to account I looked back to your work and look at the dignity and strength with which you hold your own and it it reaffirms my belief in my own right to stand up for myself and I think that. That's how may work translates to everyone who follows me I hope that they're able to just a reflection of standing proud in the ways that people find us abrasive but it really isn't so much abrasiveness just like you said, holding each other ourselves and others accountable for how we're all existing together. So I'm so happy to hear that that's how my work translates to you. It gives me hope that it translates other people that same way for sure I loved riposte that you you put up recently that just said if my work makes you feel uncomfortable then good. Yeah. Successful Day then. Will you introduce the audience who may not yet be aware of you as to what it is that you do? Yeah I am a academic author. An activist might work releasing terrorist right now at the intersection of race in womanhood I've been doing this work for several years now, and it's been a journey of figuring out how I personally exist in the world as someone who is both black and a woman and looking at the ways that those too. Often clash are often combined in various forms of social injustice, and so I do my work through writing a lot of it is on instagram post I found social media to be such a powerful platform to teach and to learn and to find community of people who are willing to show up together. Things that. They believe that, and so I do a lot of writing I'm also do a lot of lecturing. So before the pandemic happened when we were able to be out in the world I was I do a lot of public lecturing. So I would go out to places like Yoga Studios Yoga studios community centers, churches. And even sometimes on College University are on college campuses in order to give lectures that I would develop and teach myself to the public in people who are willing to come and listen and learn alongside me. And so my work just exists in a lot of equally creative ways as well as critical as and I find. A lot of value in being able to work in those areas and one of the areas in which I think you'll walk I stood out to me was your conversation around white feminism specifically, and I had not yet seen a lot of conversation around that. Now, something that everyone is talking about and everyone is using of the same language that you've been using for years and talking about doing the work and and reading the books and learning the history and unloading the things that are toxic and dangerous about our thinking. But you know I think the way that I came up through feminism and I came through feminism late in life I was a little toxic misogynist until well into my twenties and had no idea and I my journey through feminism was kind of thinking Oh, it's all just women as one we are a monolith and it's US versus men and men are the only oppresses an I'd never thought into until I was maybe twenty, six, twenty, seven about. The intersections, all feminism. I'd never even really separated my own feminism as women of color from that of white women off black women. In fact, I used to think that my plight was the same as black women because we were of colleagues we shared Melanin and Austin, and and it's only really been much embarrassment in the last couple of maybe four or five years that I've understood that there is a stark difference in all of our experiences and. The way that you have. Developed. So many courses and talks around unpacking white feminism is something that is so important and I. To me, it doesn't come across as a way in which you are attacking. Sometimes. You receive very intense pushback and it looks really exhausting online from white women who feel very attacked by your work. But I believe you are just trying to educate people to bring out the best in all of us. We can kind of win this general war against Misogyny, but by building each other up at the same time. Will you talk to me a bit about how one would unpack white feminism like how a white woman who might be listening to this show? What are the first things that they should be looking out for in themselves that they may not have realized before coming across your work? Yeah well, I came to the conversation specifically of white feminism because I had a photo that went viral after the women's March and I that kind of put me into a position where people were interested in hearing my voice about the feminist movement about my own personal feminism and as I continue to kind of go into these spaces I recognized that there were so. Many ways that feminism wasn't taking account my blackness and the realities of being a part of the black community in America in particular and so I started studying and I started learning unlearn ing and figuring out all of what I call these murky waters. I would have to swim through an order to ever even think I could get to the island of intersection. And those murky waters were full of the ways that black women were dismissed were undercut even things like the sufferer jets who were working for women to get the right to vote they may black woman march the back of the line during their own protests. They did things like a you know while they were out campaigning, get the right to vote. They were speaking to people got power the only people power at the time, which was white men and. You know. They're quoted the the leaders of the suffragettes are quoted saying things like you know if you give us the right to vote, we will uphold white supremacy. So they were very aware of what their position was with both race and gender as well, and so when I started to realize all of these things that were hiding underneath our tight pink needy like really. Violent feminists. Swag underneath that all of these layers of racism and I couldn't ignore it and the only way that I felt I could move forward is if I began to teach what I was learning, and as I did that I really built this platform of people who are willing to engage this very critical conversation in order to create a feminist movement that we could all be part of in hold value NC the truth love. Each person and be held accountable for the things that happened in the past and so that's how I came into the space of an and the ways that I teach at in my expectations of Particularly, the white women who are learning from me I teach from it do workshops and lecture from a framework of knowledge plus empathy action, and there's really no way that you can show up as an ally to any marginalized group. But particularly in this space of looking out white feminism and how it plays into the race conversation in America without really hearing the voices of black people this is how the knowledge part plays. because. So much of what we understand about the world is written through the white gays. It's white authors. It's white teachers, its whiteness that has given us the Lens through which we view the world, and until we start getting a lens that looks different than Whiteness, we won't have a true understanding of what someone's plight might have been in. So knowledge is the first. Part of this learning experience because you have to start listening and learning from the people that you're hoping to be an ally from, it's not going to be a Huffington Post article written by a white girl talking about her black neighbor, you have to be listening directly. So black people and learning directly from their experiences to give you the most authentic and true version of what you say you're trying to support, and then the next part is empathy and this isn't this is what I. Call a radical empathy. It's not the type of empathy that says like, Oh, I'm so sorry that's happening to you I. See you I. Hear You love in Lay like it's not that type above. Passive empathy I call it radical empathy because it's an empathy that both I see you and I'm going to hold my myself accountable for how I play into your pain. So it's really causing people to think critically not just about not just seeing all that person is hurt but how did I play a part in how they may be hurting and this is really important looking at white feminism because a lot of times white women completely dismissed the ways. That white womanhood plays into the structural racism institutional racism that happens in America because they think that they can't that they don't realize that they can both be oppressed within the Patriarchy and the oppressor within the conversation of race. Because, if we look back in American history, even the first type of property white women were able to own was black people as slaves. That's the first type of property they were able to own, and so there is no way to separate. The Whiteness of being a woman from the. Horror of what whiteness has done overawe and then the action part and the action part. Comes into play in a million different ways. There are so many ways that you can show up for the black community. So many ways that you can ensure that the that the your daily your day to day going about isn't going to play into all of these ways that America has racism you know put into the fabric of this country from our school system to our justice, stab to the way that things are portrayed in media to wondering what books on your bookshelf. There are so many ways that we can show up in the voting booth. In the way that we're raising our children in the way that we hold our. Family members accountable at the dining room table. There are all of these things that are actionable items that don't just let the understanding of what's happening in the world sit in your mind, but it plays out and how you move into the world and the way in the way that I teach. This antiracism work is not self-improvement work for white people. It's not time for them to feel better about themselves and how their existing in the world anti racism work is not over until black people's lives are proven to matter until these systems are completely eradicated that. Are Racists in their very nature, and so it's a continuous showing up a continuous doing the work continuous way of not just be in the words of Angela Davis not just being not racist but being actively anti-race. And also you talk about what I love the fact that you don't have to have a big platform. Publicly in order to be an effective activist and someone who is effectively anti-racist, will you list the ways in which someone who has maybe sixteen followers on instagram account whatsoever how they themselves can participate anti-racism? Well I it's in that knowledge into it's getting the knowledge. It's reckoning with yourself with that empathy inviting ways to show up if it's calling someone out if it's How you need to vote if it's your family members if your family hauling out your feeling. Jamila it's so hard because I get questions all the time and the reason why am I can't answer your question directly because in my in my experience way people say, Oh, Rachel what can I do literally say, Oh, well, here's one or two things and they'll literally do those two things and be like well, I did ritual cargo told him to deal, and so it's a very it's a very individualized jer journey. But. It's a very individualized journey to say how am I gonNA show like just because I didn't hang someone today doesn't mean I'm not racist. It means that there are other ways that I need to show up as someone who is benefiting from a system that traditionally in fabric has oppressed, black people would need to do to flip that system on its head for sure the milestone particular question is just because of specific. Portion of it that relates to those who are very young or who will never be someone who was famous or in the public is. Just to those people have like there is so much. You can do that doesn't even involve going out to a march that doesn't involve the re. It doesn't involve the things that will kind of get you applause from other people see that you are absolutely stunningly not an not a racist. There are so many things that you can do I mean if you're too young to vote, there are ways that you can educate your parents who can vote or your grandparents, all these people around you and your community there. is so much. You can do just on the ground level that if all of us did I call it brick by brick activism that if you have us would participate on that even just on our in our periphery around us, we would completely change the world and we would do it so fast. It's actually the lack of affect and I guess the people just thinking. Well, you know I'm just little old me. So I'm not GonNa Bother because what difference could I make? You can make a huge difference even. Sorry go on. Social media has completely skewed our understanding of influence. When we consider the word influence I think our minds go to social media and it goes to influence her and this idea that only a few select people in the social media world are the ones making a difference in are the ones who get two shifts society and shift opinion shift knowledge, and while the role of influencers is absolutely clear in our society. Now, it doesn't change the fact that the word influence does not mean ten K. plus followers. The word influence means the way that one person to another at the way they move through the world and that could be. A parent to child that can be classed me to classmate that can be one person to their local school board. There's a million ways that you are individually influence to the people in your world and your platform is not a social media platform your furniture kitchen table your platform is your church. Your platform is literally the spaces in which our voices heard and you have those spaces every day, and you get to decide how you show up in those spaces with your intention to be anti-racists. Yeah. You're anti-racist footprint I. Think if you're alive and breathing, then you can be helpful. I wanted to just talk a little bit further on what you were talking about with the history of white women because I think one of the big arguments that we're still seeing even today even after everything that's happened over the last couple of months is just why do I have to be held responsible for the crimes of my ancestors when I'm not wanting in that I buy beyond as records why pay for what they've done and it's like an something that I've seen, you say many times in many places because you asked about this. And so I went make you repeat it just the fact that until you yourself as a black woman, no longer having to pay for what happened to your ancestors at the hands of their ancestors, you're going to be holding them accountable to do the work to make sure that they are responsible for what's happened as well because they all still benefiting actively from assisted reality of your ancestors. That's the reality and they're still benefiting from it and they're still. Like you said, this goes into the understanding of knowledge that these things are still trickling down into my generation. So just one very small example is considering wealth considering the land. So a lot of people their wealth is resting within the land that they owned the property that they own the house that they own for. So long black people couldn't own houses in America we weren't able to get land. We weren't able to deal with the racism that would push us out of. Spaces and we just think of wealth and it's so funny. I, make a post often gets kind of pushback is maybe you manifest it but maybe it's white privilege and it's a critical. It pushes people consider critically how they got to the space they got and how race plays into it did your family have a slave plantation in which black people built the majority of your wealth in that will hoarded within the property that you owned and then your houses were you know? Passed Down Generation to generation, and now you all of a sudden have a wonderful. Generational wealth that's able to put you through college, and now you think that the you know New York, city apartment that your father pays the rent for while you go to nyu is a result of manifestation but it's really a result of the generational wealth that has been passed on through generations that originally was built on the of black people and the descendants of those slaves who did build that White Families Wealth A. Lot of times. They are just now in twenty twenty first generation college students who are finally able to go to school and have more of an opportunity. So there's all of these realities of American life that are rooted in what this nation was founded on, which is white wealth and free black labor and that. was constantly translated into various forms whether it was Jim crow or segregation police brutality in prison complex there everything is connected and we need to. Recognize that be held accountable into it. We can do to flip completely rake down a system that was never built for the. Livelihood of black people in America, the show you said, once the white women comes with the fact that they oppressed black people just as much as men oppress them there will be no progress and that just went through the Internet a lightning bolt. Yeah, I think it's a tough pill to swallow for women to consider the fact that and they can both be oppressed and oppressors but we all we all exist in that space You know people who you know our full who don't have a disability that we were not actively looking around and saying why isn't this place accessible? Even if we aren't dealing with the inaccessibility will be allies in. Consideration if we're not, then we're being part of a system that's complacent in not ensuring that people disabilities, how full access. So we it's a, it's a pill that we all have to swallow that we can both be that we can both be oppressed and the oppressor and it is particularly seen I have viewed it and seen the results of being particularly difficult thing for white women to swallow. Applies to race how do you do with the pushback? You get online because I get angry for you sometimes with the Ignorance that comes onto your page, and it is often from, and again, this is not us trying to bash white women. This is just trying to hold people accountable in fact, has not only white women who who participate in this on your feed but people, what do you find to be the thing that most often people will? I don't know I'm going to say quote unquote clamped back against you for that. You find the most frustrating. I think it's just that they think it's an attack which is silly because. Especially, in this world of feminism, we're constantly holding min accountable and white women seem to understand the concept of holding men accountable to say like get that you weren't part of the founding fathers who made this patriarchal decision to do XYZ. But still you're getting paid more than me when you shouldn't just because you're a man and a woman. So you need to be part of the solution if I was to say that then they're like, yes, men they get it they understand the role men play, but the moment I switched it into a race conversation. All of that clarity goes out the window and all of a sudden it's rocket science and something they don't understand and they are completely hurt by the fact that I would even bring up race in the ways that they play into it and so I think the most frustrating part is that I see so many white women who claim to be feminists and understand that oppression dynamic but they refuse to apply the same exact things to race and I give I I. There's one that I make that gives many examples of this in the same ways that. It's absolutely absurd that in the case of sexual assault for us to ever asked what the girls wearing because it doesn't matter what the girl wearing. It doesn't matter I don't care. She was button they get that still doesn't not toot her deserving to be sexually assaulted, and that also plays into race. So when we see a black man who has been a victim of police brutality and they asked, well, did he have weed in his pocket was in drugs part of his past I don't care if he had a trap house on his back while. He was running down the street from the police land that doesn't mean that he deserves the one white cop to be both the jury and the judge and kill him in the street for what he assumed he had done and so for these very clear translations between the understanding feminism in the understanding of anti-racism work that it's drives me crazy when white women can't make that connection or refuse to should say I've never heard someone put it like that. So fucking, it's so clear I'm going to use to explain it every time I see these frustrating examples. For. Who would like to participate in watching? Rachel. Educate people she has a it's called the great online. I'm following it. Yes. I have a I have a online learning platform called the great learn it's sits on Patriot patriotic dot com backslash the great online and it's basically A. Domain donation base and self paced learning experience and my favorite part of it is that I bring in sports from academia and I bring them in to teach on these issues that we've always understood from white gays. So some of our first some of our first so I post the syllabus every month. In the syllabus is a connection up things people can read things people can write are people can read, they can watch and they can listen to. So articles, podcast documentaries, videos. Just to give a clear introduction to a subject So one of our first one of my favorite was the conversation of like the idea of race where did this concept of race come from and how did we even get there? and. We bring in a black expert who usually within the space of academia as I said and I bring them in to teach us and then we get this. Really incredible. Experience of learning directly from someone who has who refuses to use the white gaze as a barometer for understanding the world, and so it's it's just incredibly I opening experience the great learned because it really is an opportunity to re imagine what we understand about the world outside of the colonial concept of Whiteness. All of my white friends follow the great online now and have. So much about that own often. So Act such accidental progressions and so like just kind of inherent they're not even aware of see them and. Changed. Their vocabulary and the way they communicate with women of Color and black women, and so thank you for a hugely recommend people follow it because the way that Rachel Relief and not only introduce us to great educators. But also will sometimes breakdown her discourse with someone who will maybe push back against and and write something down in a way that they think they are defending themselves or people who look like them and racial would just very academically breakdown I would say just you academically and factory breakdown their language, the coding in that language, and you you you kind of almost like a teacher. You have a red pen that you suckle. The wasn't at a programmatic and you're right number one, number two, number, three, number four, and then you break it down in the post and it's I just haven't seen anyone educate people that clearly and in a way where we can just all learn together it's so beneficial and so call. So definitely follow that. How did you get into work as an activist what drew you to this? Because this is a hard work this is emotionally taxing and. Getting, but ultimately, I'm sure fulfilling work. I always say that I I mean I have one point nine million followers right now in probably seventy percent of them are white women and I always say like. This must be the work that has been. Passed down to me from my ancestors because. About my daily life. Was a call for white women to come listen to me talk about race like nothing in me was. A plan of how I was going to show up in the world and so I. I. Truly believe that this is just part of my life's work that I was supposed to be doing and kind of got thrown into it and then I, feel like I was just given all the tools and the learning and understanding and the gifts that I have in order to show up in. The way that I needed to show up in like I said, it started when that photo went viral and I started to kind of be looked to as someone who could add to the conversation of race in feminism, and then it just turned into this community of people who are ready to listen and ready to learn and ready to insist on being anti-racists instead of just not racists and I really say I I teach learn Inouye an expert like just like you. I grew I. I wasn't like the best little black Vanessa growing up. There is so much about my childhood that skewed my understanding of the road I was the only black girl growing up in an all white neighborhood in small Ohio town I was only black girl on my soccer team and my girl scout in the classroom, and so I had so much. Ingrained racism within me. Because of how exit in the world and the only thing I understood, most of what I understood was through the white guys that I was existing in. With my schools in my neighborhood and things like that and so. In that change like the way that you felt about your body or you'll features or you're sure for shore there. There was there were always so many questions about why I was different are what made me difference or and it wasn't was always a fairly confident girl but there were these little micro aggressions in these little slights that made it clear that there was something about me that didn't put me at the same standard level as the white girls around me and. The one example that I talk about often is that you know in middle school win, we start liking you know getting interested in romantic partner and there was a boy that I liked and everyone was getting a boyfriend or girlfriend and they were kind of writing each other letters and sitting next to each other at lunch and it was you know the consumed all of our days figuring out who is dating who and. I was fairly lights as you know in school I wasn't like Nerd I mean I guess I must nerdy but I was I was fairly well known and well liked within my school and. Maybe. Rubbing. Get you. Off. I wasn't popular but I wasn't I didn't have any horrible bully aced. But I thought pretty confident like, okay. Well, let me see what boy I wanNA date and there was a boy that I liked and who we had flirted with I guess I assumed I had assume there were some social cues that he was giving me and I very sorry hold up. Probably, some more of a friend's. Puppy high school friends knocking at the door and cody. Often, our oh Have you heard about this company making stylish sustainable shoes bags made for life on the go? They are carefully crafted with ECO friendly materials like repurpose, plastic, water bottles, and marine plastic. In fact, their shoes all seamlessly with thread made from plastic water bottles. So they are ultra comfy. 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Before all your friends came knocking at your door site. Point. So is this a white boy? Yes there was a white boy. Okay. So I yeah. I guess take in social cues assumed that he likes me back and so I, with all of my confidence walked up to him and I said. Can I be your girlfriend or whatever people asked I don't even know what I said but I know that I insisted that we dates. And I remember he looked you looked at me and it'd be by the way that's been me my whole life. I never stopped walking up to people and insisting we'd. He He looked at me and he's like Oh Rachel I. Like you but I can't date you because you're black. And I remember being so confused about how that played into our love but also just. But also like in my gut knowing like, Oh, I get it Mike and that's the sad part of it that little me knew that that was probably the case more than like Oh. Okay I get it in. So those types of things absolutely played into me. Having exposure to ways that my race was clearly going to be an issue for me in relating to the people around me for sure. You've spoken to me before and you've spoken online about how now as an activist as a grown woman, a woman who is who is in love with her blackness and in love with a history and her post and the way that she looks on her body and the way that you enjoy yourself is something that I think we need to see so much more of on the Internet and I love the fact that you shed that part of your life with us as well as the Academia Arabism. But you say that you listen to your inner child a lot. Now as an adult, you're trying to reconcile that little girl with who you are now to draw guidance from and I. think that's already beautiful and it's something that I. Think I'm starting to come to terms with myself. Can you explain that to us? Yeah I mean there so much boldness in who I personally was as a child I was like very confident, very curious vary like bold in exploring the world and what I what I believed I deserved as a little girl and I like had so much excitement for in life. and. I pull from her a lot. Not just the younger girl that I was when I was maybe seven or eight who had all of this exuberance in the world but also just who I was you know. Six years ago when I moved to New York and was interested to see what I was capable of and I found out, I was willing to do everything and explore every way that I could show up in the world and so and I know that our younger selves aren't always a space of inspiration for people maybe that was a very trauma child or maybe that was a child who you who some people might not be able to connect with due to the circumstances. I think there's something incredibly healing about making a. Connection with our younger selves and getting the chance to parent ourselves in a way that we weren't parented won't be rental ourselves in the way that we didn't have friends are be the big sister that we didn't have, and so it's it's just been a really healing exercise as I continue to share that with people this practice of connecting to our younger selves so many people have connected to it and it's been incredible to see and experience. Absolutely. I'm sure I've said this before somewhere on this podcast I'm GonNa say it again Spent the last couple of years since my nervous breakdown about eight years ago just trying to get back to who I was as a baby because I believe that that's when we are perfect is when we are infants like when we are not self conscious self conscious about the way that we noticed differences between other people other than things that make us extra curious. We also loving demanding of our needs like I'm hungry I'm lonely I'm tired. I I need to share it with very vocal about all of these things that we need as women and women of Color in particular and as a black woman. That is definitely something that is. That we are shamed out of very early in life and I want to get back to her her sure. We know how to ask for help. We don't feel embarrassed when. It's all natural for us to be curious and I. Think Yeah, I just think there's something really powerful in giving ourselves the opportunity to meet at explore in rediscover who that person is and let them guide us as well as I dream of and think of get counsel from my older self as well. I consider who I will be because I can't back at the younger man say thank you for where you've got me to this point without being conscious of one day in thirty years or forty years that. that. Will be speaking to me who is older you will she like? Oh you know Jamila with you hanging out. At some Beautiful Garden Party in on. Komo and being rose AA and talking about all of the incredible work we've been able to do in the world i. think that older me is a person who has. Bound continuous spaces of comfort in who she is as a writer as a black woman as a partner as a citizen as in academic in I'm just really excited to see the ways that I'm able right now I'm able to celebrate with younger. Me has done to get me here and I'm excited to celebrate me at a later time as well. Are I cannot tell you how relieved I am to watch you beam and smile as you think of your older self because I still think Iran so obsessed with her I, love that I love to I'm exactly the same don't WanNa touch anything on my face I WANNA see my Rinku. Load Indian Love. I want the white. Hair. I keep finding the white like very cuddly randomly in my very straight ahead and whenever anyone tries to pluck one out I'm like, no no I need that I need that that. That's older may she's coming? It's so rare to find another woman who's also excited about aging because we're with. All of the juice is in the youth and perfectly takes me to my next point. which is that you know I think part of that comes from the fact that we are valuable when we can procreate according to society, and once we can no longer make children make babies than we are no longer volleyball nets where the obsession on email us comes from and I wonder if paps part of the fact that you and I personally do not have an obsession or any feeling of obligation whatsoever towards having children maybe that is what helps us explore the joy and the gratitude and even being able to eighty something that people that we loved didn't even get to do. We nourish thought. We'd like nurture that opportunity to get older and be wise and poss- what we've learned onto younger people. I can't believe people get sad when they year old I love every birthday because I'm so excited. Yeah. That's so interesting I have never made that connection between the reason why we value so much has a direct connection to this idea that it's in in those younger years of our womanhood that were able to give birth. I've never made that connection but that absolutely fits the bill of where a woman's value is held and being able to relish motherhood. And oftentimes, they don't even give her the chance to relish in it because they demand that go back to work immediately are they judge her for going back to work or they just at home? So it's a very, it's a very interesting space motherhood and as someone who has been a nanny limone fulltime nanny for a long time before I was able to start writing and we'll times that. Well. Over it is probably adds it probably adds to it on I. Only say that having that experience that I am making an educated decision like it's not just me saying like, Oh, I think I just don't want people can't say, Oh, they just don't, and then this just as valid as me seeing and being part of the day to day of Raising children and realizing that I would much rather sleeping on a Saturday if I want to have to get up and take my three year old to Spanish class or you know I just don't find a debrief. We'll take. Some physics? Never been in any in DC or New York these. Are. Back. But. I I was able to be decision see. Oh, this is the day to day of motherhood. Not Match my ideal day to day. So I'm just GONNA go ahead and make the decision not to explore that as part of my personal journey and it makes me it gives me personally a lot of other people I've been connecting with on this topic the chance to indulge in the other relationships that we play into. Into being you know showing up and really fun ways for the children that are in our lives as nieces and nephews orange little cousins or neighbors, or in other ways where I am sure you too deeply value connections children I don't WanNa birth to them but I love him and I action. Sorry. It's Just, the way that this conversation isn't based around he shoulder based around. Via Day to day decisions and so there's there's so many ways that we can still make a part of our lives or not a part of our lives. And not be rooted in disdain for any finger. Any wine it's just purely what I want does it match what we understand the day to day journey on motherhood. You have this instagram account that is a fairly recent account called the rich aunties. It's got rich anti supreme, a rich Johnson premium that was it. You created this glorious joyous face for women who've decided not to have children and their full to shad the indulgence of their lives and all of the holidays that they're going on you know maybe during off time and all the great Saturday. We'll the ways that you can spend your money, spend your time and and enjoy lovers and enjoy just endless freedom, and it is such a celebrator he space for a women's autonomy to just. Enjoy her life it's been so recent that we've even been given like vague permission to. Option to earn any money to have anything about our own or to have any kind of freedom we're, and he's still working towards that really and so yeah, Damn. Straight if we don't want to now go into like another form of service for the rest of us if you want to that is wonderful and beautiful and I may still do that I'm GonNa put my my my eggs on ice so that I can make that charge when I'm in my forties but for the next six years no fucking way. No. fucking. What maybe? Never because I? Yeah. Well, my my mother had me when she was already so you could still have the option, but for so many people in who who follow rich auntie supreme in who engaged. It's really interesting. 'cause I was looking through that page this morning and I realize that that's so much less of a social media page as a community like, yes. Full like. There's hundreds of conversations. It's really a conversation space and one of the themes that comes up so much is that women feel so much shame around both making the decisions not want children and then the benefits of it like Oh am I allowed to sleep in this late am I allowed to spend this much money on address to win my friends have to pay for daycare or have to consider What their children will be eating alongside them or making sure that they get to summer camp. So I think that both is a space for people to be seen in her and their decision to say, wow, both I'm not the only one and I'm completely valid in this decision. One of my favorite was one where you asked your community night what is one of the number? One things that people use to try to talk you into having children Someone brought up the whole kind of well who's going to take care of you when you're old ray. There's Weird crazy. So Weird. Weird I know. Someone. was like I don't know someone son is GonNa. Look on. Literally. Never. I do think that it's wonderful. See a celebration of that, and again, this is zero shaming whatsoever may still be mother one day, I? have no idea. But currently, it is just so recent for me to find other women to be able to have this conversation with just like I might know and also this is fucking horrible wealth. I don't know if I have the courage personally to stay someone else through I'm soap. I don't know if I can effectively guides another go through it afraid itself. It's so interesting to hear you say and everyone uses this language to say, Oh, I might change my mind later because people are constantly telling us you might change your mind your mind. But the crazy thing is no one ever says that women who have kids like are you sure you want to have kids? You might change your mind because I feel. Real issue like the real issue is if a woman has kids and she wants to change your mind, that's where the it's not the concern of someone who says they don't, and then they decide to be positive experience of Oh. I'm preparing right about now I? Ready to fully invested in this and we really should be asking like, are you sure you can you might change your mind Oh my God, it's just another way of. Deciding what women do with their body I believe how much people try and talk me into having children versus when I had an abortion how much people tried to talk me out of it As. I by the way at the time I was financially entirely unstable I was. So mentally ill I was not in the right relationship was not in the right space in my life. I was right in the middle of my dreams was nowhere near where I wanted to be. I had such a specific plan of what I wanted to do and. I wasn't ready. was taking into all of these very clear factors and I explicitly didn't want trials, which is also. So. You're going to resent them anyway often because they are very difficult and and fulfilling an amazing but also very, very tricky and it's a huge the biggest responsibility. So, if you already go into it, not wanting it and resenting its existence the that is a recipe for potential true disaster and yet the amount of people who with all of these factors clearly out there everything I was advocating for myself. They were still unsure if I was making the right decision and yet my. Exactly, and so I was wondering do you think there's an added pressure on a black and? Indian women of Color. Do you think that there's an added pressure on us to procreate from community? 'CAUSE? I've definitely feel that from a south. Asian background it's like family is everything is everything this safety in numbers? I think that's also a small part of it is not just building any agent having something to pause everything down to dowries et Cetera you know I think that's a lot of pride and continuing a bloodline etcetera. But I also think that there is a bit of kind of like we'll be safe if this as many of us as possible. Yeah. I I hear that. That's not something that's not something I. consider it an I personally never felt it was an extra pressure because of that actually I don't get pressure from my personal family really that's not for my for my immediate family. But Yeah I never considered that I totally hear you on. I think that in some particular cultures like you said, you're Indian. Culture a lot of African countries in their cultures. It's it's not just stay. Expectation it's like a family demands like it's it's it's more than hoping for it. People are expecting at an. I. Absolutely can see that in lots of in lots of color in communities of Color Brochure I definitely feel like there's a messaging amongst my community that like it would be a disrespect to my ancestors to not carry on my bloodline. But as far as I'm concerned, I consider all of my people my family. And we are. Legacy? Yeah. Like what is what? What will your legacy be if you don't have children and it's like? My legacy. My goodness in the world is predicated on whether I have birth someone and we also very selfish for me to think that my children will have some responsibility in carrying on any of interest that I have hundred percent I mean sadly I think my legacy is GonNa be the video I made. shitting toilets was trying to make a point about. The dangers of Diet and detox tease. into. So I really actually also wouldn't necessarily want anyone to have to inherit that legacy. 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Please that is another. fucking busy so much don't imitating tell me about the bloody love land foundation now plays Rachel make us feel worse about ourselves. You're so funny. I'm. Lynn Foundation is just another thing that kind of. Came up unexpectedly for me. I was in two thousand and. Eighteen. Eighteen I believe I remember distinctly I was nannying at the time and I just dropped the little girl I was dating at school and earlier in the day I had gotten the chance to have therapy. A therapy session and I remember like after dropping her off at her after school program, I was walking down I think like. Eighty six street or something and I. Just fell deeply that I wish to other women had the opportunity to. Experience. The clarity that I had felt that day from air from that therapy session add. My birthday was coming near and so I remember walking into a starbucks sitting down in creating a gofundme me and I wanted to raise money to pay for black women girls therapy like I wanted to pay off their bills like go to therapy. So Mirror in ways now paid off I very naively thought that that was going to be a thing. I started the fundraiser I put it up on my instagram at the time I. Think I had probably ten thousand followers and maybe like seven thousand actually and that. Within twenty four hours we raised ten thousand dollars for the Fund and I realized that this was something people were willing to invest in something that people connected with and it was just incredible to see the investments into the support and and within. Within six months I think we had two, hundred, fifty thousand dollars and I was able to bring on professional nonprofit staff people who were able to develop systems and people who are able to really assist me in making sure that this was in done rate and the foundation has been. Able. To It's been. Years now since we started and the foundation has been able to serve hundreds and hundreds of black women and girls and getting them connected to therapist who look like them, and who experienced the world like them, who are able to relate more directly to the experience of black women and girls, and also allow them to get all of this incredible support for free with all the nations that are. Made, and so it's been such an incredible journey from me just having a while to see an idea come to life and to come to life in such a meaningful way and so so grateful for the Loveland Foundation and the team and the partners that we've had especially this year we've gotten so much support at it's just been such an incredible opportunity to offer this resource to my community. Ask another question because within this community again, there's a lot of shame around needing therapy around mental health issues around a admitting to trauma that we take pride in stoicism and I was wondering if you find that within your community or if that's may be changing because we are modernizing as a generation. Absolutely absolutely it was a huge stigma within the black community you particularly in the African American community there this understanding that there has been over generations. This understanding that therapy means you've reached rock bottom or that you have no more control of yourself in someone has to come in and help you or even that therapy is an irrational choice when religion should be your first go to when it comes to any type to help support and so. It is a new conversation within the black community to say therapy is okay. You can love Jesus and go to therapy you can. Use therapy not as a last resort but as an ongoing maintenance of south in the same way that we work out our body is in the same ways that we take a bath every day in the same ways that we. Take multiple courses. It's a way for you to maintain your continuous wellbeing as opposed to it being a toolbox for when you're broken and I also have a lot of conversations that it's really nice to have a therapist who you can talk to a bachelor wins also who can help you process when things are going really well I think anyone will admit to the times when things are going really well and we're like. This is way too good like an we begin to question why things are going. Well, not always there isn't always a space you go to where you're breaking down crying and trying to figure out where everything went wrong. It's also a space to process the normal good stuff that's happening as well. So we kind of the one of my favorite images of their heads when you go in and you're and there's like a not in your head in my time you're out, it's a smooth wine. It's this way for the process whatever it is our mind with something good or bad. It's a third party who is trained to give us the tools to. Find clarity and what we're experiencing everyone deserves that I agree also everyone deserves someone to tell old if that daca secrets to who won't use it against them in an argument three as Atta because it's very very. Someone could. Most. Vulnerable Therapy for that. I need I need. Skeletons. attacked. Unexpected moment. I absolutely agree that alone is value in their one hundred judgment free secret telling. A friend who is a young black therapist and she she is. She's so new to this generally doing it three or four years, and almost from within the minute she started has been fully booked for four years and she's only twenty hundred, and this is because there is such a desperation for more therapists who actually look like the young people who seeking out therapy we he apparently and she's told me that the convention she goes to four therapists and psychiatrists are just like it's all like moulder particularly a predominantly white man straight white man. WHO WITH LEADING THINKERS AND WRITERS AND Speakers in this space and so you also I think that. People have traditionally and God knows we're just learning as a as a culture about how this exists within the medical space but I don't think people ever thought about mental health as something that people of Color in particular black people go through. Because of this idea and then black people are so strong and unbreakable these thoughts that go back all this is a rhetoric but traces back all the way back to slavery to justify the dehumanization and impossible amount that was piled onto human beings just because of their skin color and so I I think a lot of people look at something like eating disorders or mental health issues or suicide ideation as as a white issue because those are the film characters that we saw those are the people in the campaigns in the posters in the pamphlets and so. To me like an I never even thought that it was something that was impacting. I didn't know I was mentally ill until I was twenty seven when I had a full breakdown. Yeah I never saw people like me. You know be partially because of the fact that we whitewash mental illness but partially because of the huge amount shaming and silencing of it within my own community. And I it all as it. All plays into each other. This isn't intersection in itself of seeing the way that race plays into. So many areas of our lives mental health of you know like you said, eating disorder is. Know Education. There's so many ways that this has to be considered because it's what this country was built on its with this country was built around value waiting and catering to the existence. The white cysts had male and everyone else is is just trying to exist in various ways and so I'm glad you brought up because it's very true that there's so many spaces that black people. Are even allowed to breathe into because even in a space of mental health don't feel like we have space. We don't feel like we along we don't feel like we're deserving something because the world has shown us that we're not or that we don't have the chance. You know you don't have time to have mental illness. You have to try to figure out how you'RE GONNA, pay your rent. You don't have time to consider whether your child you know might have an eating disorder because. You just want them to get through a school system that is doing everything they can to break them, and so it's really critical and very empowering for black women and girls. These people who are within the level and foundation to say not only do I deserve mental health care I deserve it from someone who looks like me and I'm able to and I deserve to get it for free from for someone from someone from an organization that is working to get it to me and one. Of. My. Favorite parts of the level and foundation being able to be the president of an organization that both caters to women and girls who need the therapy. But also everyone wins because we are connected were we have collaborations with the list a black therapist throughout the country, and so we're getting those black therapist paid were able to connect them to clients able to pay their bills with our within generations have come to us. So in this, this is a Trifecta of black woman winning. Both me being able to create a wildly meeting for innovation. The black woman girls being able to get the therapy they need and deserve the black therapists to be able to get paid well for the work that they're doing. Amazing. Well, a few a young black woman who is struggling with your mental health currently. Then please the coupland foundation if you haven't yet heard of it and if you are not a young black woman or an old black women or any other kind of luck for. The rest of us please look up this foundation and donate to it and figure out ways that you can support your friends know about it because I think it is truly truly one of coolest organizations I've ever seen. Hill. Okay well, I've taken up loads of your time and you're very, very busy Rachel cargo. My absolute hero, will you tell me what do you weigh? What you know what's so wild Jamila I didn't know this question you're. Crazy. I moved back home to be with my mother and she's had so many doctors appointments and every time I go I'm tempted to weigh myself. It Burns in the back of my head to crave. To want to know and. With your with your patients, seeing all the shares that you make people listening when the you know all of their qualities that they way it's wild that I wished that while we walk through the we're on, we crave to know those things. Instead we craved to know what are the things that we love of ourselves as opposed to white society is asking from us in those numbers in it in thinking about how I literally would sit in the back of the doctor's office like should I go? Should I found find out what am I curious about myself like bowl it mean when that number POPs up I wish that curiosity was. I don't know was borne out of me in the same way to figure all those other things but I wake curiosity. I weigh in Chatman manse. iway adventure. And I weigh the weights of everything I love about my older south and my younger Sal Yeah we love. Thank you so much I am. I doing. This is so fun and. Clever and great and I wish I was more you. Enjoy. And I. I hope. That everyone has enjoyed this and we'll go on to follow you and learn from you alongside me and I'm grateful for your existence and I can't wait to hang out with your older self. God in Chaves. Press you much. This is on my agenda already it's in my calendar. Dates. Yes. In twenty years, the garden will be in I'm putting it today. Wait. Thank you so much for listening to this week. So I way I would also like to thank the team which helps me make this book is my producers via Jennings and Kimmy Lucas my editor Andrew, Carson, my boyfriend James Blake made the beautiful music you're hearing. Now I'm eighth to my work I. Tell You we would love to hear from you and show you way at the end. Of this book cost, you can leave us a voicemail at one, eight, one, eight, six, six, zero, five, five, four, three. We'll email us what you weigh. I weigh Poe cost at g mail. Dot Com and remember it's not impounds and kilos it till social contributions to society or just how you define yourself in life, and now we would love to pass the mic to one of this. WHO I way mixed race heritage and multi cultural upbringing that has enriched and continued to enrich my life and so many ways. I wait the music I write and produces a woman of color still in the very white and male dominated music industry. I weigh my willingness to learn and to constantly challenge any internal biases that society forces upon us. I weigh my luck and my gratefulness to be alive and I weigh my love for Dogo Dogo. Thank you Jamila for creating this wonderful community.

America instagram New York United States Rachel Rachel I. writer spotify Ziprecruiter Ziprecruiter Jamila Stephen Dubner Rachel cockle black community Steve Levin partner Jamilla steele Monica
Phoebe Robinson

I Weigh with Jameela Jamil

1:09:47 hr | 9 months ago

Phoebe Robinson

"Hello is Jamilla Djamil. If you listen to I way without ads and support me and the show directly the only way to do that is by signing up for stitcher premium just go to stitch premium dot com or the premium tab, and you'll stitch APP and sign up with the Promo Code I way to get a free month of stitcher premium you'll get free listening for I way and all your favorite Air Wilson stitches shows, and you'll be directly supporting me on the show and I. Love It. When you do that that stitcher premium dot Com Promo Code I way for a free month premium listening. Thank you. It won't take you long to figure out that I just think. Than other people. There Stephen Dubner and that's my freakonomics friend and CO author. Steve Levin I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena human behavior in weird circumstances but Levitt is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called people I mostly admire and it debuts on August twenty. I subscribe now on Stitcher Apple podcasts or every listener buckets. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Iway with Jamila Jamila. I. Hope You. Well, I'm fine. I'm really excited for today's episode Avocados 'cause I have a friend of real life friend on the show name is phoebe Robinson. A you might know her from to Queens or other POLKA. So many white guys. How Nukus that is just coming out go black frazier She's also the author of you can't touch my hair and everything is trash, but it's OK, which is truly one of the funniest books ever read and she's just one of the most relatable and interesting voices on the Internet and in stand up, she's also a great actress she's infuriatingly talented uncharismatic an interesting coup and I I'm thrilled to know her we fell in love over instagram and I I got to talk to her today. So frankly about so many important things to her things like race an experience of being a black woman in America today, the performance of activism of friends around her and how that feels, and also we spoke about money, which is something that so few people talk about nowadays especially women and yet women are the ones who most need to talk about money considering that we are eighty percent of the people who are targeted to buy to consume, and so it feels fucking ridiculous that that is not one of the first conversations that we start having a households and at schools. How will we still talk to budget at understand credit understand mortgages, how to understand taxes? It's almost as if it's deliberate, I'm not saying is I'm just saying that it's very very suspicious and so we talked all about money and the shame of not being able to handle your money how to build your way out of debt and she and I. Both Got History of being absolutely share it with all cash because we were both not. With the vital information of how to protect ourselves. Our Wall money is the root of a lot of evil money is currently as things stand the road to independence and freedom for many of us especially women especially women of color. So I. think that was a compensation that I was dying to help someone on this podcast and it's not the last time that will talk about it. But I really think you'll enjoy this and she just removes all of the stigma and shame from of the things around money I think we need to talk about. So please join me and loving the phenomenon and funny and wonderful affect smells rating. Good Phoebe Roca. So. I'm thrilled to announce that I. AM here with my all time. Favorite. I can't believe she's on my podcast. Hello phoebe Robinson. How are you? I'm okay. I'm I'm swell. If he can be swell during these times out God, you've spent too much time with English boy friend. Well. Don't read. Of For Fox Sake where I have to deal with this every time speaking on the phone, she has to move into the world's stupidest fucking chocolates you. This is how a normally speak. Don't know what your problem is what what's what's the issue may? You are actually getting a bit after. To fucking horrifying it's like caning marbles in your mouth. Reminds me rebel Wilson's horrifying English accent where she's supposed to be playing Sister and bridesmaids. Offensive My American accent isn't library either so I'll give you that. How are you doing during lockdown? You're right. I'm doing. Okay. So I am in really good spirits because my boyfriend I just celebrator three year anniversary two, three days ago. So we're feeling like all lovey Dovey and The world not horrible place. But I, think it SORTA flight I'm getting used to being inside all the time which I'm I'm thinking is not the best sort of thing to be getting used to but. You know it's just getting. As empowering. Not preferring just sort of like, yeah. I'M NOT GONNA go outside for like. Five days in a row and that's just. Like, like it is what it is. Is kind of how feeling you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's not great. What about you I'm up to I've been talking about this event on the podcast I'm preferring being inside and I'm hating going outside I'm going fully I'm the pendulum has swung all the other way and while I'm glad not belonging to Garside anymore we don't info lockdown anymore. So now just chosen my I've acted myself. Into lockdown and I'm refusing to leave and I've lost all my social skills. I know how people don't know how to talk to strangers. I'm fucking relieved as hell to have the mosques because no one recognizes me, and then they don't have to find out how socially inept I have become, how much further socially and that'll become. So I'm preferring it have been busy as shit during lockdown. Will you tell me what you? Know just catching up on ozark and living single nothing else? No seriously I been so i. AM starting to podcast called black frazier. what is that? I've never seen the show, but I saw the still shots on Mike. Okay Kelsey grammer wearing a lot of beige suits and he's giving out of ice on Mike I can do that and we're Mike Vinnie beauty lipstick instead. But you know like a lot of my friends say that I tend to give advice whether solicited or unsolicited, and I think just because of the time ever in right now I'm doing these is she lives I was doing with certain people felt people were naturally like asking questions anyway. So I thought this'll be the perfect time sort of kind of birth this baby of an idea that had in my head for a while. So each episode you sit down with like a different CELEB- year included I. To listen to our episode and it's all based on one theme. So like Whitney Cummings it is. Money you know. So we talk about that for maybe I don't know forty minutes and then twenty minutes of Semitic Semitic questions from audience members and it's a mix of like we can be funny and silly and goofy but it's also Katie just sort of have a real. Conversation and just like get into the nitty gritty and I hope that people will feel. Uplifted at the end of the hour and have like a bigger sense of hope about the world. So we'll see comes out August eleven. So we'll see I can't remember your aunts have to ask you about your imprint. Yes you you are. Tell me, Jayme Grin? So my imprint is called tiny reparations books. It is we've been around for three weeks now hold onto your but. and. We're looking for essay collections, literary fiction, and nonfiction. Just I want to be very voice driven went to be super inclusive to have women, Queer people, people, color be the authors that I'm Mike Supporting for the most part of like I'm not going to be like you're white so you can't be published here but like my goal is really to be like, you know when I look back to Fi- five years ago when I was selling my book and I was told an essay collection by a black woman is to Nishi nobody wants to read that that's not interesting. Yeah. Like flat out like Oh my only the only one person wanted my book and that's my current. And everyone else is like this isn't relatable and so like to be five years later, non a position where I have my own imprint and like I can make sure like, okay we're going to have you know diverse hiring and marketing publicity. It can't just be like be published. You know people color queer people but then everyone behind the scenes are just like straight white men because then things aren't really shifting some really trying to have it behind the scenes and with the books that'd be published as well. Some really excited but it is like. It is like a lot of work in a way that I remember. I wanted to do something bigger than just writing books for myself. Even when I started writing them five years ago I was like the goals always imprint 'cause i. always think about Tony Morrison she would. Choose to edit books as wells when she was writing novels, and so I was like that seems like a lot of work. But in five years ago, I was like that seems like a lot of work I bet like Reina imprint would be easier. Mistake. It's like Ding Dong. Easier but I'm really excited about an ice. something. I love about you as a writer, and this is why I'm video. So excited to see what you're going to be publishing through your own imprint is how unbelievably personal you are how much of yourself you share with people three book island so much about we haven't met until I'd read your book because we met because you asked me to moderate your launch for everything is trash, but it's okay and I And I fell in love with you through the book before the moment I got to the point where I felt shy when I first walked into the wrong being able to meet someone who I felt was already my best friend and so not a tool creepy not at all bankruptcy but there are so many things I want to dig. into you that you have been. So inspirationally open about and I feel as though. So whenever I bring you up on social media, you are someone who people freak out about over the fact that you are. You have helped them through a really personal matter where they didn't have a parent or school to talk about that issue with. So we talk about. A mental health on this podcast? Where would you say what would you identify as the biggest sources of shame throughout your life that you've had to kind of navigate your way through? Gosh I think probably money would be like the biggest thing I think. Teaches you about my lake? Let me back up. So you know my parents are very mindful about money with teachers, my brother and I and talk about the value of savings and like what a dollar. Truly means, but I think like You know you go to college you get like your unpaid internship for semester. I. Worked at like a you know a production company like a film production company and that's fine and Dandy, and I got to like you know see Paul Rudd and person before he became the Paul Rudd and all this is cool. But like what I really appreciated when I was twenty one years old and I was in my senior year of college is a semester on like this is how you don't fuck up your twenties financially and I so there was a lot that I just didn't know and I was Like. Oh, everything will kind of work out and then I just was a massive debt and had like my soon loan debts like when I graduated I had forty five grand student loan debt when my brother graduated from college yet one hundred grand in student loan debt. She was just yeah. It's just this thing where we were both kind of like all right part of beating adult in your twenties is that you're going be saddled with a ton of debt and I was just like why I won't. Pay This off until Mike Forty five or fifty and that sense of like you're automatically in the red for decades is just sort of I think permeated other aspects of my life with which led me overall have around like a little over sixty thousand dollars in debt because Alec you the rest of it was credit card debt and I think I just wasn't able to sort of really completely understand money and like understand like a paycheck like what that means in terms of taxes being taken out you're like. All. These things where I. Was living above my means and I wasn't saving well, and I was just like putting things on credit card because on Mike Oh it's fine like I could deal with that later and I. It just snowballed in a way that a Mike if Someone has sat me down on a school setting in college in really been like this is how you should move about the world. I think it would've saved me a decade of more maybe like a little more than a decade of just sort of like scrambling making really stupid mistakes also, like we came up kind of you know we became adults just after the recession, right? That's when we've really stepped into our twenty s and post that it feels like this kind of materialist frenzy happened because everyone was trying to rebuild the economy and so we were kind of taught very much so about the must have bag on the must-have thing we would just talk to spend and spend and spend. And sped and also something that we don't talk about enough society is the fact that women eighty percent of the market. So we are the ones being targeted the most for consumption of the there's a new lipstick out you must have it. There's a new brand here there and everywhere. So we are consistently expected to spend money, and yet we are the ones who are least informed as to how to protect ourselves, and while money is not everything. Money is definitely a really important part of independence and freedom and and our own power within the current climate. So lately I think it's really important. We talk about this because I massively relate to this. I lost all of my money at thirty, which was so shocking to me because I just thought I would be okay and I just didn't I actually didn't want to look at my bank accounts like I never used to look at my my week leap. So of I don't know what do you call it like statements I you ought to look I. Didn't WanNa know what I had ice just think I could keep going keep going and eventually I would figure out and also I don't know. About you but it was just so hyper normalized my generation to be in loads of debt and it seemed like a cool scheme to be able to use one credit card to pay something off in the news and other credit cards take that, and then maybe take a little loan we were encouraged to do. So did you have that experience? Yeah. I mean, I think of all my group of friends maybe there was like one or two who didn't have student loan debt who wasn't like dealer credit cards or wasn't like sort of just living off of credit cards and so you know I. Look at my bank statements with I would constantly get overdraft fees and like added to housing core. How always I- housing court was. Twenty four because I was like. Three months behind rent like it was just things that were truly so ignorant and like insane and like of course, I wasn't going to tell my family this was going on. So I was really sort of. Trying to figure out like, okay. If I if I pay like half my rent, then I have my where I can make sure my electricity is not cut off and then I can buy enough groceries that'll last me it was all this stuff where I was just constantly like bouncing around just like sort of like massively in debt no one knew and it wasn't like I was going on trips or anything but I was deaf I, definitely seem like I have my shit together. I just totally didn't and I think it's one of those things where like. Not only are you are conditioned to have debt but I think this sense of. You're not like your identity, but the way that you express yourself when he's here, quotes is through. Consumerism it's. Sort of mature materialistic and I remember when I fast forward to like, I don't know my third thirty two when I paid off all my student loans and I remember we'd be getting interviewed about stuff like from then to now and people be like what with your I like your biggest paycheck like what did you spend it on like what was your biggest splurge and my paying off my student loans and I could tell people would be sort of like. Disappointed like it's not like a fund juicy answers not like. Myself a good she bagger. Oh, I like went on this trip to Palm Springs. It was literally like I had to get myself out of debt and. Start back at zero at thirty two and hope that I could get on track again we. We do kind of have this opinion throughout society that looking after your finances makes you boring. It's the smartest most fun thing to do because you know what isn't fun is being terrified of debt all the time I spent decade just panicking about money and it definitely impacted my mental health and also especially, and I want to talk to you about this but especially when you lie to your family about it. And you lie to your friends about it because you carry the deep shame of. Not being able to keep your head above water. It makes you feel so isolated, I just didn't know and be I worked. So hard. I'm such a Taipei person I just feel like well, if I work this hard, then she'd be able to play this hard and then I had to really sort of like understand like you know what's actually cool is like. Not, being like, okay I'm going to charge going on this trip and then spending seven months paying off a trip. Like that makes no sense like what's cooler like not going on the trip and then being able to just like enjoy your life and like go out to dinner maybe once a week or like not have to hide from your landlord. Yeah, not too high from your listening even like the fact that my boyfriend I are starting this podcast in our apartment because I wasn't blowing my money like we had money to like equipment and do things that are like really. Going to benefit us in our experiential as opposed to a tangible thing, 'cause like I like. Like I. Love. Tb Right and I. Love when I get my my order online I get like my new lipsticks and that's really fun for like. Thirty six hours you mean but I still think about leg I would on this girl's trip to New Zealand to see you too. Of course, I did don't judge me. Doesn't know it isn't familiar with phoebe on her. Wild, obsession with Bono from you to at least investigate assumes possible. It's like nothing you've ever seen is how she got her fucking boyfriend he is. Yeah time and. Like the side pace because. figgis in eight and unexplainable obsession with Boehner. On. These same I'm not GonNa say me about your. Yeah. My my obsession with Youtube probably I think ten percent too much. But here we are. But the fact that was able to like go on this girl's trip with especially because now we're all Corinthian I can't see my friends anymore. But like one of my friends she was pregnant with my last time before she had her baby lake, all that stuff happened nine ten months ago like I think about that trip all the. Time and I'm like it was so cool that we got to like walk around the park and we got to eat like really cool food and like do all this stuff and Auckland like that matters more than me like blowing money on a bag on shoes on clothes and all the things that women are told to spend their money on. That is an actually enriching our lives is so to me, I think like I was like, Oh, well, having cool closes enriching my life. Is it how like it's great and I love fashion I love all those things but I think. I was just so I was. So chill with being like if I have this these a cool like. Then like people see that I'm cool. Also we are kind of. Fake it till you make it and it's like if you already project wealth and success and power than other people, my producer shaking her head and alter disapproval arte fuck. Okay came me. All of us you. Fuck. Will I I remember in college I would like get a box of like intimates like cinnamon buns and I was sit down with my best friend Karen and we will watch sex in the city and we were like this is what New York is. GonNa be like when we graduate from College Oh, my God just go many people volunteer. Right. If a columnist with one fucking color a week good times could afford an apartment in cranach and defending boots on sick. Like. What life is it really screwed up and it made us think and I love the show I love shape and I'm not like begrudgingly being that sort of like mentality like every day it's just like another like you're just. The world is your runway. You're just walking along have the coolest things you go out to the coolest places, date the most interesting people, and you never have to worry about money. 'cause you always just slander your own two feet i. think is something that people in their twenties or just told like s totally fine like it all work now and that is like, no, no, no no you can't just like set people up for failure by being like it'll all work out. You don't need to think about anything you're young like that is precisely the wrong way to go about it I think that's why so many young people in particular have so much debt. Agreed and there's just no education around it my. Truly in the last four years to understand exactly how my taxes were exactly where every penny and now as soon as I get a paycheck, my I do instant maths as how much of that I will actually be able to hold onto because that is the one thing I never understood. You earn a certain amount of money I'd be like, Oh, I have that whole chunk now and I can spend it if I do and it's now you'll be thirty percent of that at best. I think this has been a really interesting moment in our generation. I mean considering what our culture has been like since two thousand eight since the recession we were kind of in that kind of get the bad culture and also spend spend spend spend a quiet quiet acquire I think must not being able to go and not being able to go shopping and also having to conserve our income because. We're not buying stuff because we have no one show it to. So we're GONNA. Do fucking show off to your cat. All of it anyway. But we have nothing to show up four, but also we having to conserve all of our income because we don't know when the world will return and what states going to return into. It's likely that we're entering into not just a recession, but a depression and so everyone is kind of holding a little bit which is the right thing to do and I feel as though for me. Personally I have just stopped online shopping I have stopped feeling that need to consume and is just really shown me. It's made me like go back through my wardrobe and do Spring Cleans and Oh, I, forgot about this but you feel as though you've even had a shift in realizing that. was I doing why buying this shit while we like eating out so often we become a business. Yeah and it was just sort of like okay. If you wouldn't I think when I was in my twenties, I was like, Oh, I can indulge in an all because you know the universe like loves us and money is like a free flowing thing and it comes in and goes, and so like I'll take the cavs home I'll eat out I'll do like a million different things and now Mike Okay water like my indulgences a books. La Myself to buy as many books as I want to. Yes. In the background? Yes. Good. I have read thirty two books this year. So I feel like it is justifiable I mean I'm I'm a big old nurse. So I, just love to sit around and read but like I'm Mike Okay if I'm GonNa like indulge buying books then that means I'm not going to buy clothes like I haven't bought. Outside of a couple of t-shirts from Mike Black owned companies when it was like by black that those. Few weeks. I haven't really bought clothes in like six months now and and I haven't missed it. I was like, yeah it's like I. Don't I didn't need it. That's I think that's what I think. Everyone's realizing. We don't. We don't need this. Yeah and what does it feel like when you finally get your way out of that? What does that feel like what did that feel like when you knew you finally out of the right emotionally Woah. Yeah. I mean I I was like did she can't do that shit again that was so like eight years is a really long time to live paycheck to paycheck. It's a really long time to be like I. I. Get this Standup College gig otherwise I can't pay my rent this month and I'm fucked. Like don't let this happen again where you're living in a shitty apartment that has a mouse problem like it was all these things where I was like my quality of life was like. So crappy like my first apartment where were the where had to go to housing court at a giant like mold problem in my bathroom at one point the ceiling actually collapse into my bathtub. Like was just all these things where it was like I should not be living like this and you know like, yes, do we stand up doesn't pay? Yes. Like being admin assistant doesn't pay but I had to also reach a point where I took responsibility for my part in the debt and I think that's the hardest thing is because. Society wants everyone to feel guilty and shame for not having money on my. All we society should just want to educate us. Yes. So that way we don't have those feelings and then we can be able to live within our means and I think that was the biggest thing. I learned was like live in your means like this apartment that I bought we live in Bibi and I've been living here for two years I could have afforded apartment. That were my mortgage would have been maybe twice as what I'm paying. But on my if I just pay half of that, you don't have. It's fine. My lowest point was living with moving in with a crackhead. Because He. I live with and the two of US lived in Shithole, that became a crack crackdown. I was not doing crack by would sit there eating my fruit loops in the morning with people. Me, I'll be in the kitchen with people next to me. The cooker heating up crack. So that was my existence like this guy used to get high a move all of my furniture from the house onto a roof, and he would also if the toilet was occupied, he would pass out of the window and we lived on the second floor of a pedestrian street. Fully. Illegal and looks like something out of those documentaries about holders. That we left I can't believe they didn't just incinerate it. Never mind. They have just. that. Shaped to the ground. So. Yeah. That was a that was for me. One of the kind of low points of realizing. Okay I need to I need to get out of here and away from this month for he pisses on me at some point. Yeah. I also just want to stress to anyone out there listening that one of the things I most want to think about when you are when you have excess funds, the thing the decision I made when I was and it was the best decision I ever made was any money I had that I'd saved I made sure to put first into my mental health. That is something no one ever encourage you to do the outsides never gonNA fix the inside. The smartest thing I ever did was make the Clare Decision that I am a hundred percent going to save up enough therapy that then ended up fulfilling the whole that I was trying to fill with shoes and bags and dresses. It definitely not say that it's always a sign that something's missing in your life I've sometimes, we won't not great Halterneck, but I definitely think some of the best advice if you have any extra money leftover during this wild moment in time, put that to woods all the therapy that you will probably need after twenty twenty. Th like. But I think it's also if you do have spare money and like I really had to sort of like bill myself back up and really teach myself about money. It's like You don't always have eight. You don't always have to spend it like it's okay. Just like let it sit and like just keep working and save, and then also like just treat yourself to one thing that you enjoy instead of ten. So like I said before books like my one thing that I'm doing right now like as far as everything else I'm really Not like me. Money on much like I'm doing my own hair like I just watch youtube videos and I'm doing my hair and it takes like maybe twice as long as if I were to go to my hair silas but it's like I'm also saving a few hundred bucks by not having to pay someone to do my here right now like it's so it's okay. Here's the thing I. See this very specifically an American thing where you're sort of like well I work hard. So I am entitled to have like anything that will make my life easier and I understand that instinct because yes, some days it would be nice to have someone do my hair because black women's hair can be a little tricky sometimes but I'm not an title to that and it's okay I agree I agree. I mean, yeah i. also think everyone's going through that big shift. This year's well realizing Oh maybe I don't need like for example, I wear I already didn't wear that much makeup but now I wear the barest minimum because I've just have finally become accustomed to after being in this industry we get fucking caked you and I sometimes when we're on set and now being able to thank God I've been doing my makeup for the last couple of years and I know you are too and you look fabulous today. But I but I think it's been really good for a lot of my friends who suddenly realize, oh I don't actually have to half of Monica. Monica I'm not ugly without a manicure. Need to get this that and the other done they're learning how to dye their hair and becoming we're becoming more self sufficient. I. Mean. It must be terrifying nightmare for the beauty industry and the industry because much exaggerating issue like no one's been able to get that redone and they're realizing some people. Oh, I actually prefer how I look without the phillies. The phillies age them, some people they don't but I think that we are we are going through while this year is oughta trash we are going through so many giant realizations about where our priorities lied and how much we got sucked into all of the lies of commercialism, and so it's going to be a really interesting time when we come out of this, I really. Think that we are learning to accept ourselves except our bodies except like our bodies getting a little bit bigger during lockdown I. Think we're just starting to realize that we are not these hideous animals we've been taught. We were as women without having a team of twenty five people kind of just like Plotkin tweezers and a wax and pull and stretch, etc. so I'm. I'm hoping that that stays because right now I see my friends in the healthiest place around consumerism and around that looks that I've ever seen them. Do you feel the same way? Yeah I. Think just things like and I really do respect the wellness industry but things of like, okay. Instead of like paying thirty bucks ago to a yoga class. I'll just be could just take a walk outsider neighborhood for like forty five minutes, and that's just as good and it's just as beneficial and it's sort of for me like. I think. We're now looking at wellness in particular as something that's not tied to spending money because I think wellness was sort of like you had to be able to afford it to be well and now it's like well, I do yoga in my apartment I can go for a walk. People are doing zoom therapy sessions like you're doing all these things that don't require you to have to have some fancy water bottle or like. Leisure from Lululemon like blue. Women's Great. But you need one hundred, ten dollar leggings. No can you just go to target and get ten dollars games and be able to stretch out? into the difference, I've already fancy. Yeah. T boyfriend and I by himself. and. He doesn't know I cut the labels off. So then he just thinks that it could be modular it could be it could be some Brian that is so cool that even have a label he should just know. I get. It I loved. But they should pay me as well. This outta. Hope that by the time this goes out this podcast is sponsored talk. Do. You. Want healthier hair meet virtue a biotech company dedicated to giving everyone their healthiest hack humanly. Possible. 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What has been your personal experience of being on the receiving end of performance of activism, and while of course, one of the biggest topics of the air has been. The Movement for black lives and against police brutality and abolitionist Sandra I think a lot of people from lots of different groups can also identify with this. You know I think a lot of trans people this year of the law about. This ally friends co unquote and you know and I think lots of communities would probably be able to relate. It's ally I mean i. just feel like this this conversation itself could last several hours but I do think that there is Anything that's been very interesting about. You know. Non Black people sort of like getting in the mix and like wanting change to happen. Especially, if it's like someone who's way I'm just going to say like white people but. It's interesting words like they decide that for three weeks are really going to be active in their way that they feel that they're being active and then like with things like defunding the police didn't happen. It's like. I cannot believe it. It has been three weeks you're like. You, you thought just nationally the police was going to be defended and three weeks. Like, the people who've been on the front lines doing this for weeks and months and years in decades they just they just didn't know what they were doing. Connie Connie you figured it out because you just complain for three weeks. So sort of this kind of like. A sword of just I I I think that's just part part of the problem is that we we live in a world where it's like if you complain enough things change but it's like compl- like complaining on twitter about like Delta running out of pretzels and getting like you know a credit for that is not the same as like dismantling systemic racism and now understand that the work is not just like. Out Word, but it's also inward and it's not the N. Word but in word. Sorry. I know. I'm sorry. Reasons. Good. But. I think people need to understand. It's not just the government. It's like we all are playing apart and sort of white supremacy being allowed to to run rabbit not only here but globally so it's like. If you WANNA buy black for a week. Okay. You can also just buy stuff made by black people all year Like. You don't need like a social media movement to buy two instead of buying like Marc Jacobs. You'll just by like an indy black designer shirt like you don't need to be like, oh, by James Baldwin. As if that's the only black author who's ever written anything, you can buy like a combine by a black author you could buy Octavia Butler. By Robinson of great, right? So You could buy me my books, not me as a person but I. I think people go like I'm going to show for this moment. I'm going to show for black history mother I'm going to show for pride otherwise trouble. Doing. Fair. Rather than a place of actual motivation, right? Yeah and having to be a part of your life, and it's like who who are your teachers at Your Kid's school? What's the curriculum like grocery stores you shop at like all these places like Florus do you do you go? Do you just go to like some white chick like named I? Don't know Julie's floors have you looked at any like sort of like South Asian people in the community who have a flower shop so it's just sort of like. Looking at it like what are you doing specifically to show up for these groups day in day out this is a lifelong journey not just yeah. The two weeks not a month. It's like this is forever and yeah, people aren't ready for for that level of commitment and that level work they need to do I. Think the goal is diversify your day not just your feed really yes, I. Yeah. That's the way that we would probably most easily and simply put it and I think that that's a really important thing to deal with as A. And also, you don't have to answer this question if it's too triggering. But like one of the things that I think has finally become a very plain to everyone on a mainstream scale. Especially, I, think we look at the reaction to Ahmad Aubrey and George Floyd and versus Brianna Taylor, who still hasn't received any justice and I think there are you know with the way that? MAG The stallion has been marked off to having been shown. There has been the most blatant and even though I've actually found it quite blatant for a long time but I think everyone is realizing now that the way in which black women experience America is truly different to anyone else even within the community as a black woman. What does that feel like to you right now? I mean, this isn't this needs but. Yeah. I mean if you look at black lives matter like that was started by black women and like I really feel like. A haven't gotten their flowers I think be has it just wasn't taken as seriously as if it was started by like black men like even the fact that George Floyd and like of course, like black men who were like hunted down and murdered. Like it's all terrible, it's all horrible and it's horrific but the way that they are rallied around. Is starkly different from the way that when a black woman or a Black Trans woman is murdered is is not like. Trindon. As long people aren't really trying to get seek justice in that way, and it's really sort of disheartening because I think black women in general tend to be the heartbeats of a lot of movements and we tend to participate in sort of culture and away we're really helped shape it. But when it's time for people to show up for us, it doesn't always happen. But the expectation is that we are, we are the caretakers. We are the teachers we are the ones who. Are, like the fun girls we're like this strong people were like funny. We're all these things were not seen as human and I. think that's why a lot of times when a black woman or a black trans woman is murdered. People don't care because they don't care about black women we are in general black. Kids are seen as adults sooner than white kids. I mean a ten year old got charge this year with adult felony assault because A. Kids playground game went wrong. Yes. Yes, and so I think this notion that liked black women don't need to be protected. Black women don't need to be supported. Black women don't need to be fought for I think just really dates back to we have to go way back to slavery in sort of really just look at like the way that black women were retreating retreated then. I mean. I don't see much difference. Now in terms of people having empathy for black women I don't think that they do and I think it's like they can. They can have empathy for like. Beyond say or salon or my my my black co worker because that is a person that you see in your life. Yeah. But just across the board like a black woman, you would never me. I don't think that is that level of compassion. There's the level of interest that level of seeing them as a person as opposed to a stereotype those really it's really especially with mega the stallion where I'm like I remember when fifty cent like his whole thing was that he got shot eight times and that was like he survived and what are survivor it's amazing. He has his career and like it's so incredible and then people were just making so many jokes about her Aiwa donner sand and b. m. also like. People go oh well, she hasn't really come out and spoken out about like what exactly happened and I'm like, do you think maybe she's also like sort of traumatized. Going to. PTSD and like it's a lot to sort of process of violent attack happening against you it because she's not sort of performing trauma the way that people want women in particular and black women especially to perform trauma in public spaces. That means that she doesn't deserve our empathy or respect it's just it's holy disgusting in my opinion. Yeah. Also, then kind of lends itself. The idea that she's not talking about it says she must be fine and black women are just stronger than everyone else so that it feel pain as much and this that and the other and so. Yeah I think a law has been brought to light and that has been very upsetting for me because have like spent two months with her this year sixteen nowadays just seeing wha- soft and sweet and kind delicate person. She is just like whatever she puts forward and Herat, which is incredibly assertive and empowering. Those are just a really young human being who just lost her mother. And the way in which she's just sort of not even treated like a man just sort of treated as if that's just not a thing that is public right of and even just how little presses gotten was really strange. Yeah. But anyway yeah. She's a she's a punchline right now, and that's that's what's really sad. Yeah and it's also not the first. We've seen that specifically with I mean also just. Hop on about this because I can't imagine anything less interesting for you. But we look at just for people out there and look at the empathy that Kanye West has just received a vote all of the things that have happened in the last couple of years namely in the last month and everyone's like we need to be careful about Kanye west and we need to think about his mental health to really look at the way that we're talking about. Kanye West look language we're not being empathetic enough and yet as Alia banks has just been demonized pushed all the way. Like out and off NAM who has also come out and been very open about her mental health issues. So it's just a really interesting double standard that I want everyone to look out for and as you said. Having empathy for say empty black women. Everywhere. ooh. Whether you're working from home or working on your fitness, you want you're listening to what you're listening to your roommates or neighbors playing. 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Body can we talk about your body and? Your relationship with your? Whole journey and is one of the things that we I bonded over you and I fell in love on stage in front of about three hundred people. But talking about that was incredibly bonding and I think we've had even though with from different backgrounds and different countries we've had a very similar experience with these. Can you talk me through what that Johnny's been like? Yeah I mean I think just growing up as a black girl and you're. The ideal body types are like the curvy tyra banks, video girl video models, and obviously i. As? You can see there there's no, it's pretty flat here she's rubbing hybris. Anyone it was. Just, doing some breast rubbing. A. While I didn't sign up for this. I'm not complaining on. But yeah it wasn't. You know especially I would say probably didn't start putting a wait until my late twenties but leg also by the way. Just to add to that that, we say Gadhafi women but it's copying women who had tiny ways and very thin legs. Homes unseen faces very very long until. So let's just clarify that. Let's keep. It exactly for what the nineties considered accountable. Yeah. Yeah and I just I was not curvy I was I was pretty thin I didn't have but I didn't have a hips. I didn't really have boobs and so like. I was definitely made to feel like are like you're you're the fun friend and like you're really cool. But like I wouldn't date you because you don't look feminine enough or you're not pretty enough and that sort of traditional way that like. The. Media likes a hyper sexualize black women in particular I think and so I really just sort of was kind of like okay. I. Guess like no one's ever gonNA. Find me pretty like I just was like I don't have the long flowing hair. I'm not tall like I'm just not what society says is pretty and I really just sorta like beat myself up about that and really like. Myself, worth just came just really became about like Oh. You don't measure up to how you're supposed to measure up as a black woman and you know, and then when I started putting on weight, it was still like my boobs didn't really get any bigger. So it was just like a win to my hips of my but but then it was like for these photos sheets Oh, we don't have anything in your size. and. So it was just constantly this constantly being told that like whether I'm like now a size twelve back then I was a size Eurostar I've run the gamut it was at no point any size was I ever like Really, got the the energy from society. This is acceptable rate. This is. This is acceptable as a bad minimum just kind of felt like you who is just not quite right. Yeah, not measuring up in a gene. That sort of made me go like that. There is no point in which women are going to be able to measure up because aside he's always gonNA keep moving the goal. And be like, Oh, well, there's this thing you could approve on it and there's this thing you could improve on or maybe you want to try this or like maybe you should lie. When I started doing stand up twenty four like I had a club booker. told me that I should start lying about my age like there was all ways something that I should be doing to improve because right now the way I look or my age or my hair was just a let down and so I really got to a place where I was like I'm tired of. Giving, ownership to bullshit because the whole industry in a lot of ways when it comes to beauty and fashion an appearance is to make us all feel like we're constantly failing. So we need these products and I was like I just don't feel that way anymore I also like the fact that with us it's like you have to look like this but with men, it's like hey. We were thinking bids could be cool to have a bad or moustache many like maybe or maybe not, and then that's it. That's the end of the conversation or like, Hey, do you guys want six pack and some people are every time because I'm just pursuing my really happy and successful life and they're like cool man was just suggesting whereas we get fucking demonize icon believe my son is following all of my boyfriend's magazines and my magazines at the same time on social media and it completely changed my life. I started doing this about five years ago and to see how spectacularly different the information the coding and the direction. The we are receiving what we are told what they think that we'll find interesting in itself is fucking fascinating. I strongly suggest anyone out there trying to uh because it like talk about diversifying your feet and like seeing what different cultures but mostly just the difference between the genders and what was seeing, and also by the way magazines. That's another subsection of like very different coding and information that is just Know I'm not. I'm not here to say what is good or bad necessarily by from saying it is very worthwhile to investigate how you are being pushed into a sutton box all of the time by a really interesting sometimes blatant but often more often I'd say insidious instruction giving it's really yeah. Yeah I remember I did this shoe. For this thing I'm being very vague because I don't want say what it is but yeah. I had to wear like a cute likes or like a like a knock off like body con dress or whatever, and I had to wear to two things spanks because my stomach stuck out too much and then they were. Emma thirty, four A and they were like, okay. Okay. Yeah in like. Okay. Right. So can you wear like this padded bra? Them. We're going stuff to chicken cutlets each. On each right. So you can I was like right but I was like I just isn't it cool if I'm just like myself and like I did it and like if that were brought to me now it'd be like I'm not gonNa wear this like see cup bra and the stuff each cup with like two chickens cutlets. So I can look like I'm a cup. I'm not I. See Cup. It also doesn't fucking matter what my tits look like I'm here to be funny like what is this about and so it really just was sort of this thing where it's like, okay I could start myself and lose my belly or I get like a boob job or I could do all these things and then was still find something else. To, be like Oh that thing's not grace. Let's fix that, and I just was like this is this is madness driving everyone truly outta their minds because. No one has great self esteem because they're constantly told all the ways that they don't look all the ways that they need to improve on Mike how about we sort of focus on the inside and being happy with ourselves and figuring out who we are there. So many people who quote unquote look perfect have no fucking clue who they are what they want. Yeah. How to move through the world and be kind to others they look great. I used to be really vein when I was in my early twenties and it made me a really bad TV host. I was really bad TV host because spent all of my time that I should have been preparing obsessing of my appearance in the mirror and that was the only thing I thought that would matter about me and I watched those tapes back from like two thousand and nine to twelve. I just WANNA cry and want and I never watched myself the whole time I was on TV because I was so worried about what I would like. So I didn't see how she was. Great, because that's what this industry is like they just don't want to upset the talent. So finally, I got this brand new producer who in two, thousand, twelve three is often I've been on TV was like you're just not very good. You'll know you're not like glue great in person and you're good in rehearsal, but then the camera comes on on you just. Like you have this potential and you just don't meet it on camera. No one ever said that to me and he falls to me to sit with him for three hours and watched through three hours of footage of myself. And I couldn't believe how would I should talk a bit with a different voice because I was uncomfortable. That's And so that was you know big decision for me to realize that I am so consumed with my body. And my parents that I need to get off television, and so I left and did radio for the next three is where you couldn't see me anymore and I think that's why I love podcasting I. Love doing anything else because this is really about what I looked like and therefore I can unleash my true personality. I had no idea who the fuck I was. I didn't know my voice was I didn't care about anything. I didn't know what to care about. Even I was just a vessel. That was trying to stay myself towards the Patriarchal Gaze rather than actually develop who I was as a person I. Think it massively tribute contributed to my nervous breakdown on twenty seven a complete accident crisis of I have no idea who I am and it's definitely. Of course, I trauma from the past but it was definitely that that obsession with trying to fit into a box you find now that you've become more accepting of yourself and you start to realize your own beauty and like I've seen the way the address in a way that celebrates yourself. Do you feel as though your ability to look beyond that has free dear as a person and made you a better actor or a better comedian or better anything has that had an impact on you? Yeah I think I'm a better listener I think that I am more compassionate because I spent so much time beating myself. I think. I. Was. I don't think it was ever judgmental people the way that I wasn't myself, but I definitely was judgmental because I was like. I just didn't feel that great about myself and so I think I've gotten to a place where I just am really enjoying sort of like figuring out the things that I like and you know lot of that also happened between boyfriends like my boyfriend. I met him three years ago, and then before that was single for like two years and really during that time I was like. So. Much of me was like still kind of feeling. Oh, my life is not complete because I haven't found my boyfriend yet I haven't found like the one or whatever. But the during those two years I really got to figure out what I liked about myself what I like doing, what I, what my hopes and my dreams were and like just Acquiring knowledge I wasn't spending so much time being so concerned about all the ways I was failing physically, where could like read an article about science or something in about politics and I was like Oh that was a good usage of that thirty minutes. Instead of like sort of tag team is society ought to be like, okay I'm GonNa Shit on myself for half an hour and a half an hour you can come in and do it for me. I really do think I've I've grown a lot as a person I. Think I'm a better person. I like to think I don't I. Don't know if I'm more interesting but I think I like being around myself more. Really important. Also one thing before we wrap up that I I loved about your last book is. Really like I've quoted this maybe four, hundred, thousand times since I read it was when you were talking about your body image issues and you called yourself how for the fact that you'd never really engaged in double standards around beauty and around fat phobia until you yourself experience what it's like suddenly be too big for samples and too big for society's expectations. And I? The reason that I want to bring that up now is because I think there's a lot of people out there who don't stand up for other groups because they haven't yet experienced that pain while I understand that and we can't obviously completely understand every single different type of person's experience. What did you learn from that about showing up for causes before you've actually experienced so I think a big part of it and as much as I think that stand up comedy can be problematic like I really just didn't know what my voice was until I started doing standup I didn't necessarily know the ACOLYTES speak out about certain things. So I really got to a place where. Instead of like I remember when I first started doing doing standup I apologize if I had a good set in front of God, just do all these things where on Mike. Please don't pay attention to me I'M GONNA, flat myself I'm going to try be as visible as possible because I don't want to Piss off any men I don't want anyone to be upset at me. I don't want anyone. I think. I'm a bitch because I'm voicing my opinion. So I'm going to be asked quiet as possible and just work as much as I can, and hopefully, I will get by and sort of as like time went on and like you know I was gaining weight, which is totally fine like I wasn't like stressing about it but I was like I was just really coming into myself more and just being like. Yeah. You can have an opinion and you can speak out and it's totally fine. If someone doesn't like you fuck I definitely have had men sort of be like, who do you think you are that you can say your opinions publicly and I'm like a fucking human beings who I think I am and so I really just got to a place where I was like. Instead of apologizing for having an opinion instead of worrying that someone's going to think I'm the angry black woman when I see something that is fucked up, I'm just GONNA, call it out and I think you know talking about like sample size and all that stuff while that is very much a champagne. Matic. Yes. It's emblematic of like the clothing industry where it's like. You know I love a good oversized blazer so like they'll make these oversize blazers but then be like Oh we don't have fabric to make clothes is less is when I'm Mike but you do as you just made an oversize blazer for someone who's a size ten. So then just fucking make a size twenty and it's fine and so I just got to a place where like it's okay to speak up and I don't have to necessarily be from that community in order to voice my opinion in order to be an ally and I just try to make sure I, don't center myself Things that are like about me and I think that's the hardest thing I think sometimes, people are like Whoa Abdo put myself in the middle. It's like, no, you voice your support and then pass a mike to someone else and I think I'm I'm really glad that I got to a place where I just stopped being scared to speak up because I was gonNA ruin my career. That's women are told like if you speak up yeah, your career is over your resumes difficult. Yep You're never gonNA get work and I'm like, that's I. Mean sometimes that is true like truly that is like sometimes you can't get blacklisted from an industry, but I think at the end of the day you have to go it's it's worth that if that means conditions are going to improve for the next generation. So you just have to put yourself on the line more and just take the blinders off of like your specific issues and look at globally how they're all are all these different issues and you know be invested in that because like the fashion. Industry is just not like a problem for plus size women and then for everyone else's great. It's like, no, it's all of our problem and we all have to demand that people do better that designers are more inclusive that like the price points are more affordable for people, the all have to show up and say, this is bullshit. It can't just be up to the person that's being marginalized agree and so I think I had to make that that shift in my mind and not be scared anymore and then I think now I'm just like I don't shut up. Shut up. So finally, I will just also. phoebe Robinson what do you weigh? ooh. Do. I way. Way My niece and nephew who are so cute and like my niece she's she's really into science and she loves dinosaurs and she just loves discovering I weigh my financial freedom that's always been imported thing for me that like I'm certainly not wealthy but like I don't have to depend on a guy to be able to live and afford to be New York I, weigh my curiosity, my excitement, my loudness. I weigh my boyfriend 'cause he sold Q. Wigs he's very cute. I weigh all my wigs I weigh I weigh my ability to. Learn new information. And adjust my opinions accordingly I way sort of just taking the leap in doing certain things business wise without being overly prepared or overly qualified and just going forward instead of being like, Oh, I don't have the resume I just say I'll just learn I'm the same way. Yeah I weigh all my rejections have sort of got me to where am career wise 'cause I got a lottery action and without that probably wouldn't be doing the things that I'm doing. Way, my friendships, my family I way. Oh called is I knew. Coming Up a pillow. fucking. Listen a wonderful humanitarian. Okay. King or any joking. I. Just way like being hopeful for the future and just like. The generation behind humiliation. So clo- fucking brilliant, and they're so great and they're so brave in a way that I just frankly wasn't when I was a teenager and in my twenty s, and so I just I'm so stuck for that wisdom that will just be showered on all of us. Your stanage for gender. Fed do I loved the answer I love you please go and catch fevers new podcast black frazier then read every book. She's ever written in on social media. 'cause she's great. Thank. You. Thank. Thank you so much for listening to this week's I would also like to thank the team which helps me make this focus. My produces via jennings and Kimmy Lucas, my editor, Andrew Carson my boyfriend, James Blake who made the beautiful music you are hearing now I may for my work I, tell you we would love to hear from you and so what you way at the end of this book cost, you can leave us a voicemail at one, eight, one, eight, six, six, zero, five, five, four, three or email us what you weigh I weigh Poe cost at g mail DOT COM and remember it's not impound kilos it till social contributions to society or just how you define yourself in life. and. Now, we would love to pass the MIC to one of our listeners. I way my oftentimes debilitating obsessive compulsive disorder and a shame and fear brings with it. I want my passion for Justice and my anger at this world persistent injustice. I weigh my laughter and this humor that saves my life time and time again. I way extreme self doubt and the loves people around me. I wave wanting to help people who need it the most and can afford it the least but worrying, I, will fail. I way a million contradictions and wonder at small things like poppies entire size. Thank you.

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HR 1: The Future of the Show!

Afternoons with Marcellus & Kelvin

46:25 min | 3 months ago

HR 1: The Future of the Show!

"Hey what's up sodano. And e and before we get to courtside carreno zeke. Because you and i have a spin on this. I want to give out something. I just saw pop up on twitter. La county has three thousand seven hundred sixty three new covered cases today. The lowest number of new daily cases november twenty eighth so southern california. Let's keep doing that okay. Let's keep doing that. That to me is an important thing elsie. Would you agree wash hands. Keep your ads at home with need to. If you can and more importantly wear a mask. Yes yes. We're a mess frenchman of your liberties. Courtesy to help the country stay open. Yep as you're kind of crap out if you want to kind of just rebooting reset real quick. That'd be great that way. We don't a robotic l z. Not that i. Don't you know robotic goes. He does sound interesting to me. I feel like we could. That could become a bit if we wanted to. Just kind of robot l z and see what that would be like bizarro. L z of sorts. That would be fun. Maybe we should work on that. So nonetheless l z courtside karen. So let me ask you this. Forget about because. I don't want to give her and her husband. Who lebron dot was her father which regret shape this great shade by the way. I don't want to give them a ton of pub here. But i just thought about it this way. How would you overreacted. If that was someone you were with game doesn't have to be your significant other. Just someone you went to the game with and that person got into a verbal altercation that became a national news story the next day. Like how would you l z granderson compartmentalized. That wouldn't i would just wouldn't be that person in my life. I wrote a games with people who have that tendency. I were row with you somewhere else. But i'm not bringing you because you gotta remember george. It's a work environment for me. I'm not bringing certain people into my work environment. That could blow my whole spot. Now we can go to the club. We can go to a concert. We can even go to a show. I am not bringing somebody who would do a. We just witnessed to a work environment to blow up my business. Okay but you've been to an event at some point in your life where somebody you rolled with acted the fool right. I mean we've all been there. Yeah yeah. Of course. Of course and i missed it. Those places where. I'm okay with that. So i'm not a snob. I'm all for the tom foolery. I've been in plenty of bar fights. I've been putting on the basketball court like our row with you but network nod dog. You can't come with me to this. Okay gimme the moment and you don't have to mention names. Where in your personal life. You went with someone somewhere and you were. you left. The place embarrassed embarrassed. Yeah thank because i'll give you one. Okay give me one. Chris because i'll give you one when i was a kid. Okay i got. I was in a Remember i do karate growing up. So i was in a karate tournament rock when i was a kid and i literally was pummeling. This one kit and this one judge would never score the point for me. And i got so mad that i just started hitting him harder every time and it was just. It became like an issue so my dad every time that i still ended up winning. But that guy you know because there's three judges right so two out of the three gotta give you the point for you to win so that guy ever since then. Every time that guy was judging one of my fights my dad would make a point to make like a like a scene right and one time he judged me and i lost and it was a probably a bit controversial was probably close and he was just berating. This dude and and look. I get that there was history. They're a little bit but it was one of those like oh no. Please don't do this. Can we just leave. I don't want this to happen so now. That's a childhood memory but smell one. That is so vivid. That i remember it like it was yesterday. I'm sure i've put isaiah in that situation for sure like i mean. I went off on his coach one time to the point in which he had to call me off of them. But i wasn't embarrassed. I was good. I was good. He might have been embarrassed. But i was like going mystery my son like that. You must have thought it was one of the kids not kid. So this is what we're gonna do blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Some pretty sure isaiah might have been embarrassed at the end of that. But i wasn't tough one for me laura during the meeting when i brought this up. You wit David why why did you go I wanna speak in spanish for like going to be like what i was gonna say like media so i mean he kinda like i'm mexican. Okay my family. This is like a it was when we could hang out. It was like a normal. See thing every sunday you do something and they got up throw like either. It's they're going to pop off because something didn't happen the way they wanted it to happen. So they're going to you that way whether it's at a restaurant or at a grocery store i mean come on wheels in there i've been that person to but my mom loves to give stories when i was little to like my friends when they would come over and i'm like ma. I really like you really got that story of when that happened. No but she loves embarrassing. Measles been. There was actually do get embarrassed when my mom brags about me that does embarrass me when she says. Oh he's on tv. You'll like. I like she has him stuff stolen from her car. Once and we went to the police station to follow report. you know. You need to furniture's whatever and she took the time to tell the people that i worked at. Espn and i was like. I ain't really trying to please no business like that. Yeah yeah yeah but just in general like. I talked myself in that way. But she's very proud of me and so she offers information like all the time in all the environments that you can take a sweet bomb thing but it's an embarrassing thing for me. Because i'm that's not how i'm wired right now greg. You berated a coach at a basketball game. Yeah i'm obviously a really big. Ucla fan and i used to have season tickets that were on the second row behind the basket facing over at the ucla. It was it was fancy. I was that was exactly. I was very happy with that. And steve lavin was the head coach and he was just awful. I him so much. And i was probably in my teens and i stood up at the end of the game after he blew a game again and start screaming at him at the top of my lungs. Quiet arena you suck steve. You're the worst coach is going after him. It was not a good situation. I feel like we should bring steve levin to discuss this members be may remember the second row. Yup that's all went down. It was it was. You were literally courtside. Karen i was. I was courtside. Ken eastern you are courtside ken. Yeah wow and did you. Do you feel any remorse. Like even years later i. I probably shouldn't have done it. But i still don't like steve lavin as a head coach for ucla so it didn't really hurt. My feeling has been ever steve lab as the head coach of the ucla. Bruins as a person. Sure i'm sure he's great. Really nice guy job. In winning chips you got rid of them. Now that's problem. Close close hired. Hoda good lord. So now we've discovered that you are courtside. I like that. That's pretty good or so anyway. Long story short. I do think that the one thing that no one seems to be talking enough about though why are there courtside seats in atlanta. I have not seen any other arena with courtside seats available to anyone that that is a great question. the nba. I think needs to. You know clarify that a little bit as to. Because i'm sure you the only persons wondering will you know how how. How does one sports arena. Has all these fans but we have like less cases than them in our state. And we don't have that opportunity or something like that so i do think the nba needs to clarify a little bit. So it doesn't look as if rich people were just being treated differently but that whatever happened fits within the protocols they set for everyone because that was a question and and there's even reports that part of the reason why she was kicked out her her husband and one other person that was with him was because she removes her mask to yell at lebron. Now right from my standpoint it didn't look as if based upon the reporting and re that we've seen over the last few months That they were close enough. Where lebron or any other player could have been at risk however they may have been close enough to the referee or other people that are around him to put them at risk. I don't know. I just think the nba given the amount of attention story is getting may issue a statement. Just clarifying to make sure everyone's on the same page about who's supposed to sit where. Yeah because the other. Arenas i've seen and there's only a few of them with fans i think it's like seven or eight the other arenas i've seen have like you know they've got those like a tarp. Basically over the first ten rose or so and then you see people sitting behind that right like the the first available robaina that in essence are technically courtside seats. Although there clearly ten to fifteen feet away if not further i. I was surprised in the when i was watching. It live like i was like. Why is she so close. And then i was like. Oh my god like there's people they're sitting courtside in atlanta and that to me. If i'm the league i'm calling the hard to be like look dude. You can't be selling the courtside seats like those season ticket. Holders find them the closest seats. You can get but that happened again because to your point does not even so much just the players but so many other people that are involved there as far as i'm sure there's waitresses and waiters right for that area too. I'm sure that there are other patrons right like there's a lot of things that are you're dealing with their when you've got that close and she's yelling so the droplets are being projectile out and landing on surfaces that are being touched by the people around her so even wearing a mask just a simple fact that she's projecting these droplets in the air and they could be potentially landing on your person or on your seat. Can you touch it. That could be transferring the virus obviously she didn't see doesn't care because or we we know what that is but if you're the nba in you're already struck to care. Yeah you need to care of your. Yeah coming up next. We're giving away money. L z the first chance to win one hundred and eighty dollars text. Look we're doing this for eighteen straight days beginning today. Okay eighteenth street. Weekdays texts right now. Four zero seven zero five the word mission mission to four zero seven zero five. And you can maybe the name that we call over the next seventeen days but we're giving away one hundred eighty bucks the name will be called and then you have twenty minutes to call in. If that person doesn't call it in twenty minutes it rolls over to the next day kind of like a lottery so listen up for your name. That's coming up next. Marc spears at four forty times at five fifteen an a big announcement at five sodano seven ten. Espn back in three minutes. Thank you chris. We have a name. Today's name is eugene jones from los angeles. That's eugene jones from los angeles so you gene jones. Your mission is to call us back within twenty minutes at eight. Seven seven seven ten. Espn since we started a few seconds late will give you till four fifty one eight seven seven seven eight seven seven seven nine three seven seven six and you will win one hundred and eighty dollars in cash and qualified to win eighteen hundred in cash. So if you know you. Gene jones from la. You better tell him to call us in the next twenty minutes. Eight seven seven seventeen. Espn eight seven seven. Seven seven three seven seven six and we have his information and his number and all that stuff. Fake it on us yeah. You can't be faking us. We know we got all his info. Because that's part of registering and you can register yourself over the next seventeen days by texting the word mission to four zero seven zero five. So eugene come on down when you're ready but do it in the next one thousand nine minutes. Yes and this has been brought to you by sweetjames accident. Attorneys sweetjames dot com. You have it gene. Because in laura let us know what he's there or if he's there l z. There's a big story that broke this morning for people who love video games particularly sports games so ea sports which creates the madden video. Game had a very popular title for many years. The ncw football game. And i i loved it. It was one of my favorite games like me and one of my childhood friends. He was fancy. He had a playstation way. Before i did and we used to play the game i used to go to his house. We used to play the game all the time. And we'd play like rivalry games. And whatever. And then i eventually was a good enough or had enough money to to buy one myself and i kept playing it etc etc. So everyone's all excited because they're bringing the title back now however there's some little subtleties. The other game used to be called. Nc aa football. This one is called. Ea sports college football and the reason. There's a. Subtlety is because es sports has licensed the school's name image and likeness. Now they don't have the players. The players imaging name image and likeness is going to be generic even down to the numbers. So the reason that's the cases because the nc double a. z. Has yet to solve all the name. Image and likeness stuff about paying players for sponsorships. Now it's funny. Because you and i me and when we started the show back in august or whatever it was there was that big story about all the ncaa finally going to do this with name. Image and likeness. Well it turns out according to the washington post today. Who wrote a story about this. Ea sports game that the nc double a. tabled the matter in its annual meeting last month. So they have yet to figure out kids getting sponsorship money from name image and likeness from things like video games. So here's what. Ea sports put out today. They said we're designing the game so it could stand on. Its own without the use of player. Name image and likeness. We'll be ready and excited to participate in the future when those rights become available so the company that was involved directly being sued by ed o'bannon of ucla along with the nc double a. Is now broken off and said look this was on you. We're ready to pay the kids. You need to figure this out and stop. Procrastinating is so. I mean i still have a bad taste in my mouth about this step. Because what they've done now is tried to excuse themselves from doing what should be done. Which is paying these students. You can tell me you have a contract or you negotiate with individual universities all want we know what be trying to do with the imaging of those figures in your video games. You know so. If it's vince young you know maybe you know instead of six four six three. But he plays the same. And maybe he's a look a thicker. But it's really vince young and we all know it's been young wink wink because he plays for houston. It's you know what i'm saying like it doesn't feel as a resolution it doesn't feel as certainly address as the real issue of this entire relationship. To begin with it. Just feels as if it is patchwork so that. Ea sports can find another way to try to monetize without necessarily being involved with the paying students directly. Well i will say this while. What you said is absolutely correct. There's no doubt that. I agree with you that it is them doing a work around. I do think that there is something to be said about them. Putting pressure on the nc double a. Because now it comes to light that they have been on the record. Now okay to a major american media outlet saying we're ready to pay them for their name image and likeness. You gotta fix your own house up though like you gotta get your own house in order so i do think while you're right. I think there is some subtlety to this in the sense of. I'm not excusing. Ea sports for its previous behavior but at least they have recognized that they want that they want to do the right thing. But it's not on them because if they were to pay these kids l z like. Let's just use. Mac jones of alabama. Right or who the heisman trophy winner this year. Devante devante smith alabama right. Let's just say this was last year that they wanted to do this. They can't pay devante they wanted to because it would be an infraction. Then he would be ineligible to play so it is on the nc double aid to fix this and now this is shining a bright light on them saying. Hey we're ready to do this. You need to fix this. No i agree with you wholeheartedly. Except for one aspect of it. I don't know. Ea sports wants to do the right thing. They're doing what they need to do. Legally i don't think they inherently want to do right. I think they're inherently want to avoid more legal trouble Yeah i i think that's part of it but you know i'm not willing to say that they're not looking at the situation. Realized the type of flack they took for many years. Think that we've seen the power of public pressure eventually. Gets them if people if people don't buy the game which is very possible right. Then you know that that may force them even further to push the aa to get this thing done really what he really needs to. What is really going to take. its congress. congress is what is going to take this a very sound argument that this is against antitrust laws. I've spoken to several prosecutors over the years assistant. Da -'s da's like people who work specifically an antitrust division's of law of of the justice. Department like there is clearly an opportunity here for some grandstanding member of congress to really take on in earnest and drive this point home so we can get a resolution here all these corporations who are quote unquote putting pressure on the nc double a. But still working around the framework so that they can still make money basically off the images of young people who aren't being compensated like that. I'm not giving you props for that. You're just working around the system. It kind of reminds me back in the day when slavery was over with they would just take the people who were convicts and leased them to corporations like that was different. It's the same thing. So i feel the same way about how he is handling this. Which is the real issue. Is this but you're working around the issue giving us the the sense that you're trying to do the right thing but really just hoping ncwa x ray. Because you're about that paper. You're not you don't really care about these kids. Yeah i mean. Look i guess. We'll never really really know what their intentions are. At least in this particular case but what. Let's get to meantime. We'll talk some football with her. Jared goff has gone. Matthew stafford is year plus you gene jones from la call us. You've got to three fifty one. Excuse me four fifty one. Eight seven seven seven ten. Espn if you call us before fifty one you went under and eighty bucks and you can qualify to win eighteen hundred dollars if you don't somebody else gonna win potentially three sixty tomorrow because it's a double rollover. That's how this is going to go. Jones from la call us eight seven seven seven ten espn meaning in two minutes. Sadda- nosy with year on seventeen. Espn the great. Marc spears at the undefeated does a phenomenal job covering the nba for us year as well at espn joins us now. By the way you gene jones from l. a. We'll wait for you man. You got nine minutes now minutes. And we're giving away this hundred and eighty dollars with your name on it. Eugene jones. You know eugene joseph. La get this man to call in at eight seven seven hundred ten espn if not. It's rolling over. Must you must not have a lot of friends because a lot of good friends because he I would be calling them. I'd be like yo. Get your money man sitting right there for the taking exactly. Marc spears sitting here for the taking. He's kind enough to join us now to talk some hoops mark. Let me ask you this nickname. Is you change on money. We we got eugene's real information. Okay you your nickname cow. We need legal papers. Legal documentation courtside carrot. You've seen a lot of things covering this league in a long time. Where does that one rank. Oh it's a funny and scary I've been totally confused as to why and you know. We live in california where obviously our rules are a lot more much tighter than the rest of the country. there are even people sitting courtside a games like that. Just you know drives me nuts. That is just horrifies me you know 'cause now we're still today that in terms of the courtside people they're supposed to get tests you know before the game and pass tests and everything and i'm actually going to the warriors game right now. They're one of the few places them in the nets who actually a test the media for you go in which is a great sign. But just i mean. I'm like wondering when i see a picture of this lady. Walking off the floor with no mass going by forget I turn my mind off of that silliness the bron- and think about how how this woman could be giving somebody. Kobe sitting courtside. You know what i mean. Just just really confusing to me. Why i understand that these lead. The league is missing out on money but are they that desperate that they need to allow people to sit courtside under the you know you. You tell. the players can't do this. You can't do that. And i. And i understand and applaud all that. Then you're going to let some somebody that courtside without a mask on at the end of it to like it's Nba got explained. That one to me. Have you heard anything from anyone. Like i happen to saudi notes bass or anything like that. But i'm just curious as to if they if they've proactively just issued any statements just didn't notice. Yeah no i. Just i did ask a nba. Dr like why is that allowed and he. He said that you know they. They do get tested So she get tested that uniform that coming. I didn't get all those details like that but to me i like when i when i go to warriors games. Nobody's sitting courtside. You know what i mean. And i just think that should be uniform right now especially when you know a couple of hours early or watching a memorial for sekou smith who died you know my good friend at at the age of forty eight so that they know that really bothers me. Marc spears of the undefeated phenomenal work. There he's got some great stories up there right now that you can check out. John chainey story that he wrote recently about him and a number of other stories that we will kind of sprinkle in as we discuss all things. Nba with him here over the next few minutes so mark when we look at the lakers product on the floor. What stood out the most to you early on this season Just kind of seems like we. We're not even close to being the best of them like they they. They're looking like how a championship team looks. And i mentioned the warriors when when the warriors are winning their title. No it's different titles. It was different. When you're hunted. You know you're always going to be hunted with lebron. But it's a different ballgame when your chance and so one thing that shows you detroit loss. Is that no matter. What your everybody's homecoming game. You're at a game that everybody circles yard a game that everybody gets excited about and You know they they gotta get used to that again. you know. it's weird looking at standings and seeing them in in third place in and you wonder if they just One are do they get bored with this process that you know they're going to take to get into the policies in trying to repeat and you know to are they. Tired are is lebron tired. The tired are some of the return. Turner's casey tired. I only only they truly answer that question So that there's there's certainly a lot to watch their and also you got all these newcomers to you know. Figure out how to mess so i. I don't think we'll see the best of them actually until the playoffs start switching to the other team the clippers here without a doubt. They're playing well. I don't know if they're playing better than they were season ago. But there are certainly a plane. Well now they're facing nets team that can score. Can't stop anyone. Are we looking at some sort of finals preview. Or is this really just like an interesting regular season game because of the names but no one's really expecting these two teams to be there. Well that's supposed to be sacrilegious in la right. Ever since the bomber took over. I've just been keeping a respectful. I on a clippers. Because he's a he's a man about his business now. The clippers should be spoken in that form I did not love affair with lakers in. La it's just hard for them to. I'm just happy you guys asked me a question about but In the bubble like that. That's what happened in the bubble. Is the scarlet letter that they're going to have to wash off and i to play start. That's what everybody is going to be talking about. Is how they choke how they they blew a opportunity to have. I mean we would have saw one of the amazing series l. a. versus la for the first time and now would have been fantastic and they blew absolutely blue. And i that was. I'm still confused by that. So when i think of them. I can't help. But think about what. I saw the bubble and and the collapse. I i do think that you know. Paul georgia's plan how we expected him to play. You know quite. He's gonna be obviously because kobe did they. You know Have some time off. But i liked their new additions and like what they're doing. I just that they're going to have to shake that off. And i do think that they have the team to finally do it But you know you know how we are as a media man. What the playoffs come up. That goes not just us. No i mean maybe looking at each other to look at each other toronto. He's looking at each other like that. Oughta town dhamar rosa. They'd be looking at our man. We bought the do it again. This bam bam the body you can see it for sure. It's crazy Real quick ultimately man. I wanna see that. I wanna see that battle royal between them to man. Yeah oh see that. Yeah especially because how could have been. It's hard for me to believe that. That's what's going to happen. Yeah especially because we got the The west this year at espn so be actually worked out pretty well for us. We get to go. I mean i hope by then. I hope so. You know what. I mean like you know by then i hope we can all have drinks after games. Yeah so. Marc spears of the undefeated. Make sure you check out. Check out his word. He's got a bunch of great stories up this week nolan. Richardson talking about john. Chainey and the passing of course of the legendary temple coach jalen green the g. league phenom The youngster who went to the g. league skipped college a story with dr leroy sims about the covert nineteen vaccine and the nba mark. We got a role because you gene. Jones from la is on hold. We gotta get his money. Oh hey real. Quick l. man. Congratulations on the new l. a. Times gig much appreciate. It might big honor especially go. Let a black man rod column about sports there. We bj brother. Yeah no doubt down that long ago. I sure you wanna shout out eugene before we go here to real quick says you tried to steal his money man. Jay gombar it. You're the best man we love you. Good mark marc spears. The undefeated check out his work there. Eugene jones on the line. we've got what you need to know coming up. We're gonna get one hundred and eighty bucks stick around back in three minutes. Thank you chris. Congratulations to jean jones from l. As one hundred eighty dollars and he qualified to win he's qualified to win the eighteen hundred dollar grand prize. You still have time to enter the context. The word mission to four zero seven zero five and listen tomorrow at four thirty for a new name to be announced. So eugene did call in And he's had some phone issues. But laura's got his information and all that stuff he's phone keeps dropping so purchase. You make a phone a new phone for sure. Charge morpheus. but laura's got his information because he kept dropping so congratulations. You too can win one hundred eighty dollars tomorrow. So enter the contest. Text the word mission right now mission to four zero seven zero five and listen to four thirty for a new name to be announced right. Hit us up with what you need to know or don't or that we don't need to know everything. Yeah here. here's what you need to know. Ldc jeff bezos step down. I know there's a big announcement coming at five in about ninety seconds. I'm just gonna let you right now right now. They just pegged me to be the ceo of amazon fantastic. And you're still here giving money away to eugene jones right right to the game. Yeah i gotta go amazon prime to the amazon headquarters soon. So i gotta be gotta be there in a deck interesting move is like is he really not in charge anymore. He's gonna be like the chairman right. Not like the not like the ceo right. So he's you know he's he's still in charge is to decide. He's not stepping down. There's gonna be someone with a slightly different vision. Perhaps unsettled stuff. That's what's going to happen but you still going to get your packages if you got prime. That's all that matters. That's all that is crazy when you think about amazon. They started as a book. Didn't they remember. It was just selling books. Yup and next thing you know you know i know. Many of us may not think of it this way but head and not been for the consumption of amazon. There's no telling how we would have managed this pandemic right right. They were as big as anyone. Good lord and now he has also made a ton of money. During all of this it would be nice. If you paid as little more than let's say the bernie sanders commentary to later. We can put you. We should create l. Zemes with what do you think. I'm still arriving at. The mittens means all man. We went around the horn last week. It was hilarious. But you know what. I'd do it for real but i do because it's a costume. Yeah he's rich address like that. Yeah he doesn't he doesn't we. We did one last week on around the horn where we put it remember when bradley beal had that game where they were super frustrated but his hands buried so we had bernie sitting next to him. It was pretty fun. That's that is what you need to know. Broad you morongo played safe good times those in his five o'clock you're listening to caspian los angeles. It is time for the big announcement. Are you ready for the big announcement. I'm ready for the big announcement on greg. Do you want me to handle this. Or how does this work is imaging. I should throats or is it. Just me saying the announcement. It's you and l z announcing the big news for sodano and elsie. Okay so else. L z. you and i both worked together on the morning show and it was a three person show. We had a triumvirate. Okay yes and you. And i are adding one more piece to the puzzle. The shows get a get bigger and better and we are joined by the newest member of sodano l z and cap. It is scott kaplan. Hello scott kaplan. Oh my god. This sounds so cool as well as does. Yeah hi three way okay. The answer to that question depends on where i am. Well it should have been. It's not my first time. Yeah put business. Congratulations brother looking forward to it yet. Hey man me too. You guys know. I've said for a long time. I'm a huge fan of this show when the bosses told me. Hey we think you guys would all work really great together. Because we've been hearing you guys do all these cross dogs i was like i'm down if they're down. And l z. You're congratulating me. Do this story about you and this and your promotion at the la times mazal tov. My brother thank you sir. Thank you i feel. A tremendous amount of responsibility opened on. Screw it up. We'll see. I think you'll be fine. We trust you trust you that it'll be fine by the way. The new show starts mondays of the day after the super bowl. It'll be sodano. L. zine cap and there's more news here by the way so cap you've been doing the evening show after us here. The new evening show beginning next week is our pal. Travis travis rodgers and allen sleepwalk every weeknight after us so the evening show is now going away it'll be sodano z and cap so this is the deal basically. Okay we got keyshawn in the morning right. We've got greedy. Then we've got max. We got mason in ireland into sodano. Elle's ian cap beginning on monday into travis and sleep well as christopher. Alice wants to image it. And i don't know if it's going to go over well with those guys. He told me he's a workshop. The name travel and the slee. If that's gonna fly or not but nina ours. Chris like a virus man. Those guys are bound to fight in the first six months. I'm i'm pretty much going to put money on it. That they will fight each other in the first six months of that show see. I'm a little afraid though. Because here's the travis is a big man he could crush however sleep will also. Don't you think he'd be like one of these sneaky like postal types where he could just like shank you and you have no idea that he would shake you. You ever meet sleep. Sleep sleep from like new york man. We from new york. New jersey doesn't own new york accent and then sleep. What goes like this. you know. i'm from san diego. Why do you. Why do you sound like like like andrew dice. Clay exactly explain that to me. And so i think i think sleep was sneaky. I think he is. He was sneaky. Tough sneaky. I could see so that's gonna be the lineup so cap. Let me ask you this. Courtside karen. I know you were on last night. Like how much. How much did you dive into the story. What were your initial reactions to this story in the immediacy because you were on before anyone while this stuff was fresh last night. Okay so i love this stuff. I can't get enough of this kind of stuff. This is the way. I love sports. Okay i love what i saw. I love lebron being involved. The the blonde bombshell sitting. Courtside her girlfriend videotaping. Where's her husband. Where is he. I had to go back and re watch the entire thing because when the action started on the floor i was still focused on what was happening at the bottom of my screen then. I found her on instagram. Because people were tweeting her name i founder. I followed her started. Deeming her saying you gotta hurry up and get on the air and then all the listeners last night or sending her messages on all of her pictures like yo at scott kaplan at espn los booking art view. Her wall is littered with our listeners. Saying you gotta get on the radio. But i loved it her walking out of the arena telling lebron i'm gonna kick your butt blah blah blah her accusation of lebron said which come on like lebron's going to say that to her and an empty quiet arena but i still don't get it. L. z. sodano explain it to me. Why are there people courtside getting. I don't get it. I don't know why there. I do think that the nba should issue some sort of statement clarifying this because even though you know whatever the hawk start they could do that was within the protocols national. It doesn't look right. And so you know marc spears. Marc spears brought this up. It bears repeating the league loss of really important voice last week and covert and so covert. It's really on minds a lot in around the league and so for this to be happening and you know there are a lot of questions about the courtside seats and her not wearing a mask and being just basically tragic all the way around. I think the nba should at least issue. Some sort of statement clarify sinus. Yeah just take. It doesn't take much to do that. Like it feels weird. You know you already threw them out of the arena. You know did you. Here's the thing. How does this woman and her husband. We got to know more about who she is. Meaning now we don't snow down scott well but see listen. I just saw. Somebody tweeted that this will be the dominant story of the super bowl we can. I'm like no. Let's not do that. Let's not do that but the question is who seats are those. And if she's going to use that to go from last night. When i started following her sixteen thousand instagram followers. She's not like sixty thousand sixty nine thousand right now right perfect right and and you see some of her videos courtside things like a little booty bounce and there she is in this tight little skirt and their. She's she's showing it all off. I mean everything she got like. How does she how is this. How is she courtside like this. If you told me they were people i read. That is like he owns the second largest liquor distributor in light the southeast or something. The companies like eleven billion dollars rats. How they have. They got money they. They got some influence in atlanta great. But if you told me there were a thousand people in the arena. I'd say oh okay. So they're like up in the upper deck right there because at the super bowl they'll be twenty two thousand people but nobody's going to be standing next right. Yeah that every other arena. I've seen that even has fans and there's not very many of them l. c. You and i were talking about it earlier. Where it's you know. There's the tarps that tarp off the versus. You know whatever it is eight to ten rows and then you have people there like the fact that atlanta had anyone around it You know it just doesn't make any sense to me it. It doesn't What we do know that you know every region handles this thing differently. Based upon the science and the politics every state is handcuffed the same sort of dynamic so. I don't know what the guy going on in georgia I just think the nba specifically just needs to say whether this was proper or not and you know just let the fans know what. This protocol is going forward because there are fans who see that go or shoot. Can we go to gains now. How can we go to gains at their courts. I why can't we be up in the stands like so there. There's going to be questions. I think the nba should step up and answer ramifications there. That's a great point. Sure i just say. I i listen i a. I'm kind of that sort of fan. You know i'm voyeuristic. In that way. Like i want to know more. Who is this person. Why she there who issue and then find out. Oh she's a wanna be instagram influence. Or oh look she used this whole moment to get out of it exactly what she wanted right and and so i liked lebron's answer by the way afterwards. He misses the fans. He likes a little back and forth. He didn't think she should be kicked out. I thought that was kind of cool. Yeah and i like the fact that he threw shade that he thought it was a father daughter combo that was great. So jared goff's gone matthew stafford in is it super bowl or bus right now for the rams of course yes it's super bowl or boss. But what did they do here. Did they get so much better at the position. L z. yeah do they get that much better. Yeah yeah ok. Okay a word. Yeah and as far as the future goes first round draft choices. Forget about that. I'm not into twenty three twenty four. I don't care. I care about now this dog. We just sent a qb who has nothing but california on his resume to a part of the world that gets code and october. Who's record in cold weather is dismal. And all we can talk about is whether or not you know matt stafford and sean mcvay can get to the super bowl. So that tells you everything you need to know about. Jared goff every for him. Good thing for him. He's playing indoors in detroit. I'll tell you that right now. But he's twice gains one in green bay. Chicago does not going to be indoors. Is thing so it's going to continue to be a thing and go ahead. Scott the question the question is is it super bowl or bust. So mcveigh made his call. Les snead made his call most of us presumed that they were married to this contract. Why did they give them so much money. Why they give it to him so early now. They're screwed into the contract. Well they found their way out from underneath a good part of it and they think they improved the position. Here's the thing there's a great stat. Matthew stafford in his twelve years in detroit over that period of time has the thirty first ranked running attack in the nfl right. They never had a running game right and this guy put up big numbers. So kenny walk in the locker room immediately. Be part of this winning culture. Does everybody follow his lead. Is that kind of guy. We're gonna find out if he can become a winner. Because he's been great statistically in a really bad franchise. Yeah there's your look at the numbers. Skip the numbers. Only worry about the numbers look at the ability. He's very talented. There's any question about that. Like i mean and guys around the league. Respect him as a talent. Which i think is that says more about him than the previous guy is the way i would say all right. We've got some breaking raiders. News that will get you on the other side but this is what you're going to get more of beginning on monday. Sodano l z and cap beginning monday every afternoon. Then travis in this league. I'm gonna try to and get that going now just getting travis and sleep each and every evening there the new evening show. It's going to be fun right after mason ireland ourselves and then travis and sleep scott. We'll talk to you monday brother. We'll talk to you this week during crosstalk. But we'll talk to you for sure on monday. I'll talk to you. Guys smart congrats again. Elsie thank you sir. Congratulate you work on board. The train should be fun. Yes it is crazy all right. We've got breaking raiders. News stick around for that meanest. Coming up we'll tell her about this breaking raiders. News get her thoughts. Get her thoughts on the rams stuff and the super bowl stuff all coming up in three minutes.

Marc spears gene jones nba lebron sodano eugene jones ucla Espn steve lavin nc carreno zeke La county tom foolery la Eugene jones laura steve levin espn steve lab
Coronavirus: Everything You Could Possibly Want to Know About Testing

Science Rules! with Bill Nye

36:35 min | 9 months ago

Coronavirus: Everything You Could Possibly Want to Know About Testing

"You can listen to add free new episodes of science rules only on stitcher premium for a free month of stitcher premium go to stitcher premium dot com and use Promo Code? Science. If you WANNA listen to science rules without ads and directly support our show while you're at it, the best way to do that is by signing up for stitcher premium just go to stitcher premium? Dot Com. Or tap the premium tab in your stitcher APP and sign up with the Promo Code Science. To get a free month of premium listening, you'll get ad free listening to science rules along with all the shows on the stitcher and ear wolf networks and your premium subscription helps keep our show going to that stitcher premium dot, com Promo Code Science for a free month of premium listening. Thanks. It won't take you long to figure out that I just think differently than other people. There Stephen Dubner and that's my FREAKONOMICS FRIEND AND CO author Steve Levin I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena human behavior in weird circumstances. Lebed is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called people I mostly admire listen on stitcher apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcast. This is an historic time. This is going to be a multi year fight. Why is it taking? So long to get a screening test, it is not a hoax it Israel something that we have never experienced before wash hands wash hands wash and I mean, you're the scientists are going. Tell me. Welcome. Welcome to Science Rules Corona Virus addition I'm your host Bill Nye, and this is the series that brings you the latest analysis and the science of this pandemic to keep you informed prepared and calm. We are still all in this together my friends and today more than six million. Americans have been infected with a corona virus with more than one hundred, eighty, thousand deaths. We have roughly forty thousand people testing positive every day for the virus but people still have questions about those tests especially when it comes to the different types of tests and how to best use them I. Myself have been tested four times all negative by different techniques and I just wonder which one is which. So here to help clear things up is Dr Zoe McLaren professor of public policy at the University of Maryland Baltimore County where she uses econometrics to answer public health questions. Doctors Roy McLaren welcome to science. Rules May Call Zoe. Pleasure to be here. Thank you. Thank you so much before we even start about starting to begin what is econometrics. ECONOMETRICS is basically statistics applied in economics realm. So basically, it's just another way of. Thing were just. A charming way to say statistics. But these are statistics related to public health some people test positive. Then the test negative, negative, positive, positive negative, and you're not really sure what's going on. So what is going on? Sir So I think the ideas that none of the tests we have absolutely one hundred percent accurate and that is not a major drawback. So they are generally quite accurate. They're accurate enough for our purposes but every time that there's a false positive or false negative, it tends to get a lot of news attention and it can really worry people. Okay hang on second. You know when I think of a test it's it's binary is like a light switch it's on honor it's off but you're saying even if it's on when it shouldn't be an offline and shouldn't be still useful. Yeah and the idea is that if it's close to one hundred percent or very high level of accuracy than that's good enough for our purposes. So the ideas. That, we want to follow what the test results say but bearing in mind that there may be a small proportion of cases where it's actually the opposite result and so that can be very frustrating if you're someone who's gotten a false negative false positive but in the grand scheme of things, the idea is that using these tests much more important to do the testing even though there's the. Of false positives and false negatives of the overall testing program is very, very beneficial. So you're saying statistically, it sorts itself out if you have enough test. So what are the tests that you can describe that are going on right now there's two or three or four or five, right? Yeah. So I will clarify that remember the the purpose of testing is to let us identify cases so that people who are sick can get access to treatment and people. Who are contagious Ken self isolates they don't spread the disease. So whenever we talk about testing, we always want to think about the ultimate purpose here and the same thing we think about testing data. So our testing data is in the service of saving lives and preventing the transmission of disease. So we always want to keep those goals in mind in terms of the tests that are out there. They're basically two sets of testing about diagnostic tests and screening tests. The diagnostic tests are the tests that are generally used in a medical setting and they tend to rely on people who develop symptoms or they're aware they've been exposed and they go and seek healthcare potentially to get treatment I have a fever or sore throats. Then you want the diagnosis is this caused by corona virus or something some other exactly, and that's partly why in a medical setting, we need very high accuracy because if it isn't the coronavirus than we. Want to think what else could it be to make sure that people get access to other types of care as well so and that test is generally the PR tested up Limerick channel. Reaction This is where you you guys poked the thing up trying to they tried to get a sample of my brain pokey but as you may know I, don't have a brain. So there was no came back negative. That's one type of test is PR. Than what's the other one and to the PC our tests remember the the way the sample of collected that can vary among the PTR cast. So in your case, it sounds like you had the needs. Oh, for Swab, which goes way back into basically almost your brain and really is can be painful for some people and some people have an aversion to it. It's also possible to do the same test where the samples collected just in the back of the nose, which is much less uncomfortable, and now there's the possibility of using saliva to do the exact same pc test or good. Then what's the screening test? The idea about screening tests remember diagnostic tests or medical? Setting and wait for people to show up with symptoms a screening test ideas to be widespread. So we're trying to test a big proportion of the population to try to catch cases before they spread. So it's a proactive way of testing that we want to go out and reach people people who may have no symptoms and yet still may be contagious and we're gonNA use probably a different type of test it's possible to do screening with diagnostic quality tests, but a lot of the diagnostic quality tests are quite expensive and so it's hard to get enough test with the budgets we have to get to large portion of population. So what's Rose Green to us like a fever? News of the idealist screening casts So one way to do screening is by checking for fever. So you've seen the forehead thermometer gun. So that's one motive screening. It's not particularly sensitive in general for the coronavirus for covid nineteen because so many cases have no symptoms or don't have a fever. So there have been a number of companies that have developed screening tests that work well for for Covid nineteen and so. One example is there was a test that was just granted an emergency use authorization from the FDA last week, and that's from Abbott and it's called Buynaksk now, and the idea is that it's a lateral flow ashtray. So basically, what the test does is you do a nasal swabs so not in the far back your brain, but just in the back of your nose, and then you're gonna mix the nasal swab with some. Drops of chemicals, and then that's exposed to a paper test strip very much like a pregnancy test, and basically this pest strip will show up a single line is negative for on the coronavirus and two lines as a positive test, and that result happens about fifty minutes and it costs about five dollars. So great potential for screening tests because it's cheap, it's rapid it's easy to do outside of a lab and it can be. Mass produced about credit card sized. So currently at that particular test has a authorization for use only for symptomatic patients, actually specifically for the diagnostic setting, but it is possible to use it for widespread screening and there appears to be some movement from HHS potentially approve it for that as well, and even without the approval, it's possible for doctors to prescribe it to people who don't have symptoms. Okay. So Hang, how does it work? What was a lateral flow essay? So, basically, the way to think about it in simple terms is that there's a paper strip and you're going to take your sample that either has virus in it. If the person is contagious, are infected and mix it with reagents, and then you're exposed to this paper strip and basically the liquid will move up the paper strip. The water moves up a paper towel into autocracy. The thing we do with the young people you get food coloring coffee filter paper, and you watch the color separate through capillary action very much based on that that idea and so basically, if there's viral particles, they'll move up and they will attach to. NANOPARTICLES in this case of gold that contained an indicator color gold, as well as antigens that will basically connect with any virus particles it will move up the Strip and it'll reach a band, which is the negative band, and so the negative band would just catch that indicator particle and that's basically the test to make sure the test is working properly that it's been the indicators in there and it's moved up the strip the way it should, and the second line will basically be the one that connects if there's any virus in the sample, so she can go line. If there's no virus, the liquid goes up to the second line but the second line doesn't light up or doesn't light up because the indicator color will not attach the second line and the lions are made of antibodies which connect with antigens and that return Dork when they connect they turn in this case read when they wreck. Cool when the scientists developed the test and they tell me how well it works with accuracy is than I'm someone who can think about how to design that into a larger custody program. There you go. That's just what I WANNA know. So is this the rapid test everybody's talking about? So this is one of the rapid tests that everyone's talking about sort of a number of different tests that are out there. There are several companies that have developed all sorts of different rapid tests and I will say that the technology in the by next now is very simple to understand and very elegant. There's some really. Nice diagrams that are very clear and so it's one of those things really important too. Because when people get a test result, we want them to trust the test and if they understand in general how the test works, it demystified the finance and makes them more likely to follow their result. So I, think the the the fact that the sciences look people use it understood easily really builds trust in the test and it's really important for this kind of larger testing program to make sure people will follow their test results isolate when necessary or so weren't these things everywhere right now man that's a great a. Great, question, ideally, we'd have a large number of test available. So our goal with testing would be for everybody to know they're covid nineteen status at all times. They've know if they were contagious or not whether they should self-isolation they were they were infected or not what they should seek medical care. That's the goal. So we don't have enough tests out in our country right now to achieve that goal, and so these tests are one way to get there. The FDA has the role of basically validating these tests. So in the they all these great innovative companies are producing the test and they produce some data. To say how accurate the test is but our public health system requires the FDA go embarrassed by that and that process can take time. So the idea is kind of wow that processes going they may have some tests that look very reliable and they think are actually worth bringing to market even before the full approval processes complete so that people can use them. We're in the middle of a pandemic and we need all the help we can get to fight it. So doctor what you're describing is there are tests now that have been developed very quickly that seemed to be good but the FDA was long tradition. Is Making sure that manufacturers claims are valid. And remember the the point of the FDA is to make sure that we are safe and healthy, and there's a bunch of really wonderful scientists there that are doing this work. So it's taking longer than we would like it to. But the main thing is to make sure that the tests are as valid as they say they are but a lot of the work I do as an economist really kind of human behavior. Is. Looking at incentives rather than just the financial markets and that's the stuff that really interests me a lot because that's about life or death decisions that people are making and how we can develop new policy the twenty to save lives. So I'm concerned with saving lives rather than making money what are you doing to encourage the correct or best public health outcome behavior yeah, and so one of the issues at the FDA. Is that their way of thinking about these tests is in terms of diagnostic setting where level of accuracy required is very high. So there are likely tests in the pipeline through the FDA that have applied for FDA approval that would work very well as screening tests but the FDA doesn't have clear model for which to approve these tests and part of the concern is that if they approve things a screening test have lower. Accuracy it will erode people's trust in the test in general and the FDA itself. So I can understand that concern but part of it is that we want different types of tests used for diagnostic and screening, and we're in the middle of a pandemic and we really could use more screen tests. So the any way they can think about validating test specifically for screening would be really helpful in terms of finding a pandemic. How do we design a screening test program with tests that are pretty good but not perfect not at the level of a hospital test. So as you mentioned before screening tests are binary, get a positive or a negative. So that give us kind of a limited amount of area work with 'cause. It's not giving you a scale of one to ten, and the problem is that if people get a positive result from his screening. Test of less than one hundred percent accurate. The May, interpret it as one hundred percent accurate and if a false positive or false negative shows up, they might get really worried and kind of question, the entire test. So part of it is really about the messaging to let people know that the tests are not one hundred percent accurate but letting them know about the whole system and how the system as a whole work well. Imagine you got a screening test result that was positive. Instead of interpreting that as you're definitely positive of covid nineteen, you would interpret that as you have an eighty percent chance or a sixty percent chance of being cove positive and you would use that information that likelihood to make your decisions and showed I just take another strip. Another knows Schwab and do another test that morning before I drive to work whatever I was going do. So it's possible that you could do two tests in a row that would be one way to do it but action system really works. Well, if people test maybe once a week or once every few days, the actual cadence of the testing is something. That, we need to look to the data and the modeling to determine exactly. But imagine you've got that you have a positive result you know that you either have covid nineteen. Contagious at the moment or you have a false positive, we can ask both of those people to self isolate the people who are actually contagious. Well, avoid spreading the virus, any further and those that are the false positives if they're also self-isolating. One thing they're doing is actually reducing crowding in public places and that helps reduce the spread of the virus overall and part of it is be screening test can't distinguish between the false positives and the true positives. So we basically need the cooperation of the small number of false positives to isolate. It turns out they weren't actually need to as part of the overall system. We should think about also the false negatives. So these are people have slipped through the cracks that turns up there contagious but in their screening test comes back negative and so they don't know to self isolate even though they're contagious. So people are quite concerned about that. Part of it is that if we're doing frequent testing than those people are likely to be caught in the next round of testing. So they wouldn't be able to ask spread the virus very far and wide before they would get tested again on the other hand in some ways, it's actually a feature not a bug because one thing we wanna do is make sure that people don't put too much faith in these. And start relaxing too much on the other things we know to do in terms of social distancing mask wearing in hand washing, and so the remembering that there are some false negative people slip through cracks who are out there who are contagious circulating in the population, and it could very well be view. Is a good reminder that we maintain. Our masks are social distancing until we have data to show that transmission has been slowed and they're very few cases in the population in our community show Dr McLaren Zoe. Part of what you do is influence behavior. Do, you have ways to influence people to get him to wear masks. Do these are these tests part of a larger effort? They are a part of the larger effort. So people who are not doing these things really are they want to return to normal they want to return to the pre pandemic life and and I understand that I really miss so much about my pre pandemic life as well. I think the thing that I like so much about testing is that testing is relatively. Less, burdensome than some of these other things I understand that social the seating people have made a lot of sacrifices shelter in place in New York City early on in the pandemic cancelling social events postponing social events. Both travel masks themselves or a kind of a small burden but still prevent the possibility of doing certain types of activities, and there's certain types of things like a live music concerts that a lot of us really miss and so I think the way to think about testing is testing is a way to quite rapidly if we have a good tests and widespread testing drive transmission down to zero and it makes everything you want to do much safer. So I think about testing the new testing innovation as expanding the possibilities. That will help us both reduce the loss of life. So reduce deaths as well as giving them more freedom and people often think wait testing that sounds like a real pain to have to go multiple times they get tested. But remember that with all the social distancing in mass wearing and postponing and canceling activities as well as having children not be in person school were already giving up a lot. So to be able to instead do some additional testing spent some additional money on tests it seems like actually pretty good trade-off. Back, right after this. KIWI CO create super cool hands on projects designed to expose kids of all ages, two concepts and steam science technology engineering art, and math keeping coz missions to help kids build confidence creativity critical thinking skills, and have a blast while doing. Each grade is designed by experts and tested by kids and teaches a new steam concept. 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So you get qualified candidates fast Dylan posted his job on Ziprecruiter and said, he was impressed by how quickly he had great candidate supply. He also used Ziprecruiter's candidate rating feature to filter his applicants. So we could focus on the most relevant ones, and that's how Dylan found his new director of coffee in just a few days with results like that. It's no wonder four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter, get a quality candidate through the site within the first day. See why ZIPRECRUITER's effective for businesses of all sizes trust Ziprecruiter for free. Ziprecruiter dot com slash science rules. That's ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM. Slash SCI NC E R U L es Ziprecruiter Dot com slash science rules ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire. This for the record. there. For the agents. Tiger Woods is one of our most on spiring sports icons and his story. It comes with many chapters I. AM deeply sorry for my responsible and selfish behavior. But Erie's. Tired to glory. This is all American. A new series from stitcher hosted by me. Jordan Bell you realize talking was doesn't know who he is. In the history of golf no question in my mind. And this season with the help of journalists Chen. We're asking. What if the story of Tiger Woods that the media has been telling? What if it's been completely wrong I'll American tiger is out now listen institure podcasts or your favorite podcast. APP. As I do my best, remind our listeners in everybody I ever meet. If you want things to go back to normal the fastest way to get back to normal is to wash your hands physical distance and wear a mask for crying out lout if we could get these rapid tests in place than that would be a fourth thing that would help us get back to normal much more quickly. Yeah. I agree and I would say that the testing actually is more powerful than from the other tools that we have and actually works much more quickly if it were available, it were available. Exactly. But a lot of these tests are going to be available very soon the buynaksk now will the they are planning on producing think fifty million tests every month starting in. October. So it isn't always around the corner. So the idea that we're going to have test very frequently to catch cases, and once we've caught most of the cases, the transmission goes down to quite low levels and it should allow us to ease up on some of these other public health interventions that we've been doing while also keeping duck flow, and so the tests not being one hundred percent effective. The big program is still very effect like. It's like the weather report. When somebody says, it's such and such percent chance of precipitation you decide whether or not. You're going to carry an umbrella that day or raincoat exactly and when it says the ninety percent chance of rain and it doesn't rain on you. You'RE NOT GONNA. Freak out. That's something to be expected but we'd noted trust the weather report in general like, yes, it makes sense to bring an umbrella so that same kind of thing with these tests, they're more reliable than the weather report and the idea that we want to guide behavior. So we want to make sure that we isolate as many of the positive cases as possible and we can do that with these. Tests that focus specifically on people who are contagious, quite sensitive to people who are contagious was sent. Their sensitive is they're more viral particles in a contagious persons scientists system. In. General. The virus of viral loads, the amount of virus in a person's body peaks fairly early on in be infection and that some people are most contagious and the deal with PCR cast the diagnostic test is it amplifies the small traces virus to get a positive result whereas the entrance tests basically don't amplify the virus is they're going to be much more sensitive. They're going to be picking that virus and showing positive result if there's more likely to if there's higher levels of virus in the system. So in some ways, antigen tests are answering the most important question you have from the. Screening is, which is person contagious or not, and should they be self isolating the question about whether they're infected new treatment down the road is somewhat different question that's best answered by a diagnostic test or so what does the antibody test is that effective? Does that make any difference false positive false night what does that? So the fact that we have an antibody test in Antigen test is a source of endless confusion, and so the idea with Antigen tests the one that we've been talking about so far today is it. That's the test for current infection, which is that question of do I have? The coronavirus right now could be contagious. Do I need treatment? Am I going to be sick of explains my symptoms the antibody test is a test for current or past infection so the idea have been exposed to. The Corona virus, and so we use that as a measure of did you have it in the past and and we don't WanNA use that particular test for this kind of measure of current infection. Why not? Because it's after the fact at after the fact so you could end up getting a positive antibody test if you had the coronavirus back in March so what's going to happen I'm going to go online to a big distributing company might rhyme with a river in South America and then I'm going to get a case. Of these strips I'm going to get up in the morning test myself. So that's one potential model the model that I have in mind I think about it as a food truck model or kiosk model. So the ideas that, yes, it would be very convenient. If we all kind of had the chess available at home, it could wake up in the morning and take a test, but it's not clear that we need that amount of testing to actually drive transmission down to zero. That's not supported by the modeling although that would be very convenient. So you could imagine that a test would be as easy filling up your car with gas or swinging by a pharmacy to get a very quick test would about doing to coffee shop that's the ending but that is the kind of food truck model that the mobile health model. We kinda swing by to get a screening test and you would go by maybe twice a week depending on the local prevalence and and get tested and so that situation. So there's two ways to think about it. One is that you may require technician to test. For you and so that's not necessarily a major drawback because people are willing to have people helping all sorts of ways even filling up your car with gas depends as a technician does that the part of it is the the regulatory environment to get home testing for these types of tests that's a pretty big hurdle, and so the question is will do we need to overcome that hurdle in order to end the pandemic and it's not clear that we do. So think need to look to the evidence and the modeling to really determined that. Can Get people to test often enough if they had to go swing by a food truck in their neighborhood, and if we can do that, then that's kind of type of test we can inform so overall though in the scheme where we're going to have testing for everybody and everybody's GonNa, know his or her a covert status all the time we have an email from Sandy Bush who's just asking about the quality of Kobe tests so far are they are these tests that you're proposing? GonNa be better. So the test it was just approved last week the reported accuracy is. Ninety seven or ninety, eight percent depending on kind of positive or negative. So really really high level of accuracy. So I think the idea of these tests remember that none of the tests are one hundred percent accurate but they're all really highly accurate and we make decisions important life life decisions all the time when we don't have one hundred percent accuracy, and so I think the ideas to kind of think carefully about the whole system, and so the idea ideas that we want to get these screening tests out people because it helps, it helps us make better decisions. A lot of people in nobody wants to infect their family and friends of on a virus. So we think most of the transmission is. Accidental and if people had information about whether they were contagious or not than they would have probably made different choices if they could to avoid the spread and the idea with these tests that we don't have to catch absolutely every case taking catch eighty percent of the cases, an isolate them or seventy percent or sixty percent that gives us kind of another major step forward and getting a handle on the pandemic and that combined with our hand washing and our social distancing in our mask wearing that's the kind of the pathway of low transmission to get kids back in school into getting us out of the pandemic. Well, let me ask you this something. We ask our guests if you are in charge. If, you were queen of the forest is there something or a group of things you would do? Is there something you would want everybody to know or do having is really really powerful we are fighting virus the basically have stealth technology it can transmit with kind of no signal at all. There's no symptoms and a lot of the people that are transmitting the virus and testing uncloaked the virus, and that's really powerful. We're trying to combat this virus, and so I think people have kind of thought will we're not going to have very much testing. They've accepted the status quo of low levels of testing and a lot of uncertainty about whether they're contagious or not, and I think. That it's not too much to ask to have higher levels of testing and that that can really help us make better decisions and it's really important component in fighting the virus and testing is more powerful than mass wearing it works very quickly at a lower amount of efforts between by to get a rapid test a couple times a week is a much lower amount of effort than having kids at home for doing during. Class over zoo and for canceling all the events that were canceling and for all of the sickness and death that we're experiencing right now. So I think really ramping up testing would be. It's quite clear that testing is really powerful and we're not doing nearly enough of it and that ramping it up will will work and I think it works pretty quickly. Part of it is that there's a lot of fatalism around the pandemic. And fatalism is deadly people kind of lose lose hope stopped taking the actions and and testing something where we can see because it collects data as we do the testing and we can see the transmission rates coming down we can see. Steps in the direction that we want to go and I think that is rays of hope for people to get to cling onto, and that inspires them to invest more in some of these other kind of social distancing and things like that. These other actions, collective actions that help drive transmission zero and get us out of this pandemic. Should we reopen schools? So schools, I, think should be the number one priority. That kids really benefit from in person instruction but WANNA make sure we're doing it safely and so I think that's one of the things about testing as well as at testing as a way not only to make sure that things are safer but to keep tabs on how things are. So we know how safe are we can reassure parents that the schools are safe and teachers at the schools are safe. In communities as well, and it also collects data. So we also have more information to think carefully about how to reallocate resources and hit spots and find hotspot something should we? Should we have a national program? So we technically do you have a national program I? Think we need to amp up quite a lot. I think we need to focus on screening testing as well to get this widespread testing. That's really really important for driving transmission down how often would you screen test a student's kids? So that's a question. In some ways it is answered by doing the testing itself. You WanNa have a cadence of testing that's going to catch most of the cases before they're able to spread. So if you're catching a lot of cases early on in the school year. When you start to test ideas, you WANNA keep testing at a fairly frequent cadence crookedness to be able to kind of get drive the transmission down. Once a transmission is low, then you may be able to slow cadence down, but there's this relationship between kind of test positive tests that you're doing and the cadence that you should be working at, and so you can use data to adjust your strategy. They're thinking another way not just isolating but isolating effectively. In other words not locking everybody down only locking down the people that are in everybody's best interest to stay home. We call that targeting and the idea about targeting is that it's very efficient. You're an engineer you understand efficiency. I'm an economist that language and speak as well, and the idea here is that. We could have everybody shelter in place it's effective but not very efficient. It's very burdensome whereas with testing were able to identify the exact people who need to be isolated plus likely some false positive depending on which tests were using but that's still a small number of people and they may be able to isolate I mean the other thing about the screening tests is they're sensitive they give us a sense of how long people are contagious for it's possible that with. With more data from these tests, we'd be able to figure out how long people are contagious and reduce. The amount of time people are spent isolating. That's very efficient. It's the lowest burden and the most effective way of doing it, and that the the testing is a lot of how do that and you think about targeting and finding hotspots we need good testing David to do that, and we need to improve the quality of testing data. We have right now because we're not able to target these kind of low levels level of county or level school. Thank you so much really appreciate your time. My guest today has been Dr Zoe McLaren his professor of public policy at the University of Maryland Baltimore County. Leave. US voicemails with your questions the number again everyone two, zero, one, four, seven, two, zero, seven, eight, five. You can also right to me at your home page, which as we all know and crews zoom is ask Bill Nye DOT com. I'm Bill Nye and my friends this is a pandemic. We are all in this together and so now my friends more than ever. Science rules. If you like science rules grown a virus edition, please take a moment to rate and review it and apple podcast in stitcher helps us out helps us learn who's listening to the show helps us find out what you want to hear about. So thank you. Science Rules Corona. Virus edition is produced by Harry Huggins and our very own Corey s Powell. Undernourished Tracey? Samuelson. Engineers once again lose Fleming who also mixed this episode. Josephine Verona's or executive producer. Special. Thanks to Casey Hawford. Chris Bannon, is the chief content officer of stitcher and stitcher everybody and everywhere really science rules. Couple more things where amass wash your hands. Support. Testing them.

FDA Bill Nye fever Dr McLaren Zoe Dr Zoe McLaren Tiger Woods Ziprecruiter engineer University of Maryland Baltimo professor of public policy spotify Stephen Dubner Israel Steve Levin Roy McLaren Lebed HHS Coo Dylan Moskowitz
415. How Rahm Emanuel Would Run the World

Freakonomics

48:09 min | 1 year ago

415. How Rahm Emanuel Would Run the World

"I am testify. Glendon. I'm hosting the new podcast pandemic economics from stitcher. And the Becker Friedman Institute for Economics the cove in nineteen pandemic is an unprecedented global crisis. We're here to help you navigate this moment. I'll be joined by my co host New York Times reporter. Eduardo Porter will be interviewing top scholars from the University of Chicago on a wide range of topics from global markets. To how this will change the nature of work new episodes every Thursday pandemic economics. Listen on stitcher there Stephen Dubner and welcome to this special bonus episode. If you've been listening to this show for a while you know that Steve Levin my freakonomics friend and Co author is an economist at the University of Chicago. You also know that when I was starting this podcast ten years ago Levitt thought it was a pretty dumb idea now to his credit probably was a dumb idea back. Then but over time podcasting became a real thing and freakonomics radio became my real job Levitt. Meanwhile kept doing all the things in economics professor. Does this includes writing academic papers and you may recall that. Levitt recently checked out. How often his three? Most recent papers have been cited by other researchers and got onto google scholar and the some of the citations across those three papers with six said to myself. Wait a second. I spent three years pouring my heart into something that has basically been read by six academics. And nobody else in the world what am I doing? It was around this time. That Levitt decided that maybe podcasting wasn't so dumb after all because whenever we talk about one of his new papers on freakonomics radio episode he'd hear from a lot more than six people. This show has a global audience of more than four million people so Levitt being pretty bright fellow and an economist. He decided that he should probably take his supply to wear. The demand is a few months ago. He guest hosted an episode called. America's math curriculum doesn't add up. Let you say that someone may do? The maths are tomorrow. What we some of your first reforms so I would change the curriculum to really reflect real mathematics and I would also change it to reflect the twenty first century because math still looks in classrooms. Pretty much as it didn't Victorian Days Levitt did a nice job with this episode and it helped kick start a national conversation about math reform. And so we got to thinking. Wouldn't it be great if Levitt decided to jump into this podcasting racket with both feet? Wouldn't it be great if Levitt? Would maybe start a podcast of his own. The fact is we've been working to develop a few new shows as part of a freakonomics radio network that you'll soon be hearing more about now. What exactly would let it show be. Well one of the things I most admire about. Levin is his intellect of course. But it's an unusual intellect. He's much more likely and willing than the average person to think. Truly original thoughts. He's also got a unique type of curiosity both in subject matter and methodology. I think a lot of this goes back to his father whose doctor and medical researcher. Levitt talked about his dad in episode. We put out in two thousand eleven called things. Our fathers gave us tweet. Take me to the hospital where he worked and no one was looking. We sneak into the room with radioactive materials and play games with them. It wasn't just or even principally laws that we've violated. He taught me to flout the limit. Society imposed one of his favourite activities. Starting roughly when I was ten years old was to present scenarios from work involving other doctors making gross misdiagnoses. He would tell stories in such a way that the answer he was looking for was attainable even for a ten year old and when I gave the answer wanted he would tell me. I was already a better doctor than the one who had handled the patient. He made me believe that there is nothing I couldn't do if only I put my mind to it. Limits Dad Michael Levitt is one of the world's preeminent researchers on intestinal gas. He's known as the King of hearts. The man who gave status to latest Michael Lebed was an outsider but an outsider by design and I would argue that Steve. Levitt is also an outsider. Bydesign one of those rare people willing to look at things from an angle. The most of us can barely imagine until he comes up with an insight. That seems obvious. In retrospect but none of us could see it. This brings us to today's episode. Let's consider it a pilot for a new podcast. We're Steve Levitt will be having one on one conversations with other smart and unusual thinkers other outsiders by design his first interview subject is Rahm Emanuel. The recently departed mayor of Chicago. And even more famously. A major player in both the Clinton and Obama White House as always. We're happy to hear any feedback. You've got especially your suggestions for of its interview subjects. Just drop us an email at radio at freakonomics dot com. Okay Steve Lebed and rahm Emanuel coming up right. After this from stitcher and productions this freakonomics radio podcast explores the hidden side of everything with today's special guest host Stephen. I'm fascinated by unconventional people. Probably because I'm so weird myself. I especially like unconventional people who also happen to be really smart. I find that if I can spend an hour talking someone like that. It often completely reshapes the way I see the world but there's a problem it's hard to find people like that and even harder to get them to talk to me once. I found them usually. They've got something much more important to do so hatched a plan. What if I started podcast? Maybe I could give some of those folks who otherwise wouldn't talk to me to talk to me so far I would say the plan is working pretty well. Today's guest Rahm Emanuel is the first person I approached for the podcast and I can guarantee you. He would not have spent two hours over the course of two days talking with me absent. This podcast typically. I have zero interest in politics. I don't know much about political science and it seems like politicians mostly rehash the same arguments every day with little desire to find real answers but I was eager to talk with Rahm because I just finished reading his fascinating new book. The Nation city by mayors are now running the world. It's full of deep insights. And that's no surprise since he has a reputation for being one of the smartest people in politics. Presidents Clinton Obama both relied heavily on his advice because of his work. During the Obama Administration Ramstein became permanently associated with the phrase. Never let a good crisis go to waste. He also spent three terms as a congressman from Illinois and two terms as mayor of Chicago. He comes from a family of overachievers. His older brother Ezekiel is a leading bioethicist and advise the Obama administration and healthcare report. His younger brother Ari is at the top of William Morris Endeavor. One of the biggest talent agencies in the world of the brothers raw may have the biggest reputation for being a falmouth fearless ruthless maniac as a teenager working at Arby's from head and on the job accident that took half of the middle finger on his right hand. The story goes that when the doctor unwrapped hand after surgery he flicked everyone off and said from now on he'd have to give people the Middle Finger twice to have the desired effect while still in his thirties and working in the Clinton Administration Rama's reputed to pull British Prime Minister. Tony Blair aside just before. He took the stage at an event and admonished him. This is important. Don't up now. That is somebody I want to get to know better. Here's a guy who's been wildly successful and yet it is totally clear. He doesn't play by the rules. That usually turn me away from politics. As I waited for Rahm to show up for a first interview in Chicago I started to have some misgivings. Rams team had called ahead to the sound guy studio from was in a terrible mood. They warned he injured his leg the night before wasn't intense pain. In addition Rams father. Benjamin the two were extremely close had passed away a few months earlier. The Dave our interview would have been his father's ninety third birthday knowing ramps fierce reputation. I can honestly say I was a little bit afraid as we sat down to talk. Maybe you can hear it in my voice. We're rolling great when she does your name. What you're doing now and a couple of the jobs you've done in the past rahm. Israel manual father of three former senior adviser to President Clinton member of Congress and in the leadership chair the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee President Obama's chief of staff and then mayor of the city of Chicago for two terms diseases of your book. R- Is that mayors run. The world in Kovic must be the toughest possible test of these two truly global disaster. That's disproportionately hitting the large cities and it's one that requires you know national cross-national cooperation do you think of? Kovic is being the exception. To your rule that mayors in the world one of the principles of the book is that as the National Government was dysfunctional local and state leaders. Were going to step up now. I say in the book and I want to repeat. There is no replacement on certain levels. I mean you can't really have an immigration policy or climate change policy just in Chicago. You do need the national government to do certain things. I do. Think one of the things that's GonNa come out of this is that we're no longer gonNA accept this kind of dysfunction. It's just not going to be acceptable. That the wealthiest country is this fundamentally unprepared for the future that said you can look at state local leaders who have done extraordinary things. Because you know power. Vacuums get filled mayor. Garcetti was the first to say that he's GonNa make wearing mask the blanket policy of Los Angeles and then all of a sudden. Cdc A week later issuing that guidance. Let me toss off. I bought this. I have which is related to what you've been saying. So this particular crisis has been incredibly information-rich it's been data rich and the actions. People have to take depend on their ability to understand data and models and forecasting because the point at which you have to take radical action is a point at which almost nobody was sick. Almost known was dying in my own hypothesis that we've done a really bad job in this country at making people data literate and our school systems haven't focused on data. They haven't kept up with the advances in thinking of computing over last fifty years. And I think we're paying the price in this epidemic because many public servants in many policy makers aren't trained to think in the right way about data science and models. What's your reaction to that? Well this is rear for Emmanuel. I haven't thought about that so I don't know but usually we have answers before we have questions. My knee jerk answer is. I'm not sure everybody should be walking around being data scientist. That's what data scientists are for. Ba- say this. We're having a big argument inside the Emanuel brothers everybody's guessing even the best data scientists and everybody goes oh just follows scientists. Well you know I come from a medical family my dad you know how many times my dad asks for a second opinion does reading for the second pins the science I mean. I hate this analogy when everybody goes. Oh just follow the science. While the science isn't clear were chasing information. And it's moving in real time as we're making judgments and that's where you're gonNA need just making a judgment in the storm of a crisis. You're making informed educated guesses and the emphasis is on the word. Guess not informed or educated. You're hitting on a point that I make all the time with my students. Which is that the most important talent of a data scientist is common sense and thoughtfulness and data alone. I never the answer. It's combining data with reasonable models of the world with humility. But I WANNA give you credit Roswell because you were just able to say. I don't know I think says a lot about you and I think on those questions where you you answer with confidence. I think that should increase our confidence of the answers. You're giving I may. Have you call some family members if you're a public servant right now and you had to think about coming out of this quarantine? What job would you want to have? But would you be trying to do? I think I had two jobs. I would want in any crisis. Which is the mayor and chief of staff on the national level? I think you gotTa do three things right now. One is how to step up a robust testing system. 'cause YOU'RE GONNA need it both for identification of hot spots and the ability to transition to some level of normalcy on the economy to a reorganization. I think on the economic level. The first bill was a disaster relief bill. It's very clear there's going to be more need for disaster relief and then how to really think through what a stimulus bill should be an. I've thought about you know not only the normal infrastructure which will take two to three years to spend out the five G. and broadband universal. You're GONNA need because we're going to have online learning telemedicine and stay at home work. That's going to become the new norm and you've got to have a floor to guarantee equitable participation in that New Economy and then I think major major investments in our public health. I think you know to court Warren Buffett when the tide goes out you see who was swimming without shorts and even though I think we have a great healthcare system in the country the kind of starvation budget of our public health indicates that we have not kept up with future public health needs. And then third you know if you look at history. In the beginning of the era of the Cold War. We realized we needed a more coordinated effort. The National Security Council was established after nine eleven we created the Homeland Security Department and the deny the director of national intelligence to bring all our intelligence agencies together after the poor response to Hurricane Andrew in Nineteen Ninety two in Florida President Clinton when he got elected elevated fema to a cabinet level. Put a serious person there and plus the budget. This is our fifth pandemic twenty years. You're going to need a new office for bringing together all the resources. So there's one person in charge and accountable for our public health early detection mobilization and deployment of resources because SARS murs h one n one swine flu Ebola. Since not one of those really destabilized us. We got our guard down. But we've been exposed and now we're going to have to organize you can't have CDC NIH FEMA the military the intelligence all playing a role in this but nobody accountable for it. It strikes me that if we were willing to make sacrifices on privacy we could handle this pandemic better. So for instance if we follow China and other countries lead using cell phone data to track people's movements. Or let's say we did that in the future to understand both how things are being spread but also to keep an eye on people who are under quarantine and whatnot. What's your reaction? I mean it seems to me that if we were just looking out for the welfare society we would be making big privacy sacrifices right now but I suspect that that's an extremely unpopular perspective. It is but you need the question is how do you build a policy that allows you to both protect people's public health without violating their civil liberties? I do think there's a way to do it but be vigilant. Meaning you don't set the rules. And then think about him for twenty years you set the rules and then you're constantly monitoring to both ensure that they're being applied appropriately and then more importantly updating them as both technology and other vulnerabilities are identified. Why did you choose public service? I grew up in a home where politics not just lectoure. Pulpit current events was debated constantly. My mother was an activist who set up and ran the core here in Chicago. Congressman virtually quality did all the open housing integration beaches in Chicago. My father as an emigrant was a pediatrician. Trying to set up a practice in nineteen sixty two quits. The He's been here like three years barely speaks English and equip the American Medical Association over National Healthcare which he was four and they were against and then just a few years later with maybe a just a few more words of English under his belt he sues the city. Chicago OVER LEAD IN HOUSEHOLD. Paint and organize the pediatricians as that. You Dad was certainly ahead of his time with lead just fifty two years. Yeah but your mom as well. I mean the racial attitudes in Chicago in the nineteen sixties. They weren't particularly friendly right now. In fact when we lived on which is h water. We got kicked out of there because of all the landlord said all of colored people that were coming to the house and so it was very much in the home and both of them both on economic and social and racial justice demanded the kids do something also of social and political value. So let's fast forward as I understand it. You took a huge bet on a governor that nobody ever heard of and it seems like that's been paying dividends everything. My Dad was totally against this so I used to tease him. Bob So the chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee when I was political director in the late. Eighties was congressman from Arkansas. So we used to go through Arkansas quite frequently and I got to know Bill Clinton and believed what he was doing and we kept up that dialogue and I decided I was single young. I always wanted to do a presidential. And the guy was at two percent Wapping to bill. Clinton after the debacle of his eighty eight convention speech was a kind of a dumb bet. If you were taking a safe bet you would have done. Mario Cuomo and I thought I'll just get this done with my system. I WANNA do a presidential. I wanted to try this out and I believe in Bill Clinton and what was so special about him. Bill Clinton always said that the most under appreciated undervalue thing in politics is ideas and I thought he had a new way of thinking about am. I thought could pick the lock. Their Republicans had at that point because they've gone to twelve year. Stretch in the White House. You have to be idealistic enough to know why you're doing what you're doing and tough enough to get it done. And if you look at successful presidents in history neither one tips scales too far one way or the other they have both of those skill sets and you look at all the ones that never make it. They usually tip one way or the other. Yeah so bill. Clinton in Nineteen ninety-seven Propose Children's health insurance program with pediatric care. I in dental by expanding Medicaid. The Republicans came back encountered with pediatric. Care no I in dental but outside of Medicaid and we cut the deal it was President Clinton's pediatric care I in dental but outside of Medicaid which is Republican model the Republicans cared more about whether it was inside or outside of entitlement program Medicaid and presences. Were here to get kids health care. We're not here to get a program. Expanded Newt Gingrich says. We're GONNA accuse you of nothing but welfare for people that work and President Clinton said the Mr Speaker only just gonNa tell you this right now. You just go ahead. You can throw me into that Brian. Because what I'm done I'm going to have. A policeman fireman a teacher and a nurse standing outside and you can call them welfare. Make my day. Go and throw me into the Briar Brash. And Monday morning we scheduled a press conference and they were folded. Like a cheap suit. Connects Day When you're talking about Planning Fair Day but let's talk about Obama so you left the Clinton administration and won election to the US. Congress did three terms there and and then you got the call from Obama to come and be his house to change my cell phone number. I didn't really want to do that to me. Seems like the best job on the planet the I I would like to have the job that different g you and I say yeah. I knew what the White House was like you. Don't okay I know what the chief of staff job is. So what is the chief of staff? Does the most miserable job in America. So it's the toughest job. The world is falling apart a tough job. Even when the world is going good worse is probably the wrong edge. It's the toughest most thankless job. That's should probably which adds up to the worst show. Let me back up. I become chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee win it. Nancy becomes the first female speaker I then become caucus chair which is fourth in ranking. And I'm basically a sophomore. I'd been to the White House. I was now on my road in the house. My own voting card my own identity etc and all the sun. If you go to the White House I used to say the White House is family. Friendly to the first family is not family friendly to anybody but and I would have to go six months away from my children. They would have to finish school income. Move Out There. Every would have to disrupt their lives and even when they moved out there. I'd barely see them and I didn't want that but I also grew up my grandfather on my mother's side. My GRANDPA if the president asks you to do something it's either yes or yes sir and it took me about forty eight hours to figure out which answer I wanted to give so one of the things I've heard I've known nothing but Washington is that the most important thing about the chief of staff is that the flow of information that could potentially get to the present infinite and the president got finite time. And what makes it so powerful? Is that you control. What the president cheese I used to tell the cabinet this you can get in to see the president but you're not walking in with a problem. I WanNa see all the solutions you're offering you are not allowed to dump on the President. Your problem after his day. He's supposed to think of your solution. So I WANNA see your solutions two or three nothing less. And you can't have a phony won a pig in the poke and then the one you want. But you're scared of politics. You got to have real viable options and nobody gets in without presenting those options to me and I would also organize the rest of the senior staffer core group David axelrod Gibbs etcetera to see it evaluate and scrub it because you cannot go in and dump your problem on him. That's not fair so that was one thing the other thing is you got to help the president evaluate all the options. President Kennedy uses to say to govern is to choose between bad and worse in the judgment. You need to figure out which one is bad. And which one is worse there arguably few situations for a president and taking office and the immediate aftermath of a severe dramatic economic downturn just weeks after Obama was sworn in in two thousand nine signed a seven hundred eighty seven billion dollars stimulus package which was among the largest spending bills in US history. This came on the heels of his predecessor. George Bush's seven hundred billion dollars. Tarp bill to bail out. Failing banks and other companies and Republicans are against both even underbush so basically within a blink of the eye for the American people. You've approved one point six trillion dollars and then we passed healthcare. Lilly ledbetter on pay equity and fairness except there's some other things I was making a very strong case to the president that we should do financial reform. The financial team led by Tim. Geithner Larry Summers etc are against what I want. Because they said the doubt of a long battle about financial form which stopped banks from lending and that would not let the economy recover word. They want to do instead. It wasn't what they wanted was what they WANNA do. Okay now I made an argument to the President Won. The political system needs some Old Testament justice. We needed a banker in the Middle Public Square and just slap him silly to because of the financial meltdown. You're more likely to get a bipartisan vote. Which both the tarp and stimulus bill did not have third. Is You would fight with the bankers now if you have to have an opponent. I'd like bankers. I thought culturally politically holding the bankers and financial industries feet to the fire and reforming the system would both garnered bipartisanship and be a sense to the public middle class at. We're still their homes. Are under water. It would be somewhat of Catharsis at somebody. Upstairs was being held accountable to President Obama's great credit. We had a four hour Saturday. A Roosevelt Room discussion. I lost the fight. He made his decision. Healthcare I but y loved about both President Clinton President Obama is. You're never scared to disagree with them. But once the decision was made you enforce that decision President Oba. I gave him advice on financial form lose battle he decides healthcare. I've been through this movie before. It doesn't look pretty. I said okay. If we're going to find I told them up front. You will pass nothing else when you're done kaput because this is not one that gets money back into the count. You're taking it all out. He made that decision. The president wanted it done now. Did I chase members down including working out at the gym and being very clear to them how they were going to vote? I have no bones about it going back to financial reform as an outsider at that. Same time watching. I was stunned. At how the economists in the administration were just willing to do anything they were so worried it seemed about being held personally responsible for the next great depression that they just didn't care another five hundred billion and I challenge some of them later and I said you know as a public servant shouldn't even try to maximize expected value for society or something not worrying about your own reputation in Konic hadn't thought about that before and then they changed their tune. Dramatically after that said no no. It wasn't about our reputation. There was uncertainty indata. So I think we're on the twelve year anniversary of the financial bill. That was really good policy. It Save the country from a depression. Plus the stimulus bill. The two of them combined two of the worst political decisions you could ever make and those two one two punch save the economy from a depression so we have argued on this podcast that the president is not nearly as important as people think the president is has much less actual power. The decisions matter less free pretty much disagreed with everything. I've said to disagree with that as well. Yeah so you think the president is actually really important. So yes big time. If I known this I'd never would've come on this podcast. Who vetted this decision so I I think? Presidential Decisions are major otherwise. I wasted a lot of time giving sound advice. So you speak very reverently about Clinton and I can't tell whether you feel the same about Obama or really. I think they're both great president opposite. I suppose if there's a slight tinge he used to say to my mother you love Ezekiel more than me. She Goes No. I hate you both equally. So let me say this. I spent more time with President. Clinton be it's in my formative political years. I revere President Obama and you know we're closer age. We're good good friends. We ever personal relationship but it was just at a different point in my life. And that's what. Let me just be really clear if I lift any doubt. That's bad on me Coming up after the break from a manual ponders the central trade off of this difficult time we find ourselves in public. Health is dependent on separation and segregation. The economy is built on a premise of integration and interdependence that's right after this freakonomics radio is sponsored by better help is. There's something preventing you from achieving. Your goals is work related stress or insomnia slowing you down better help online counseling securely connect you with a professional licensed therapist log into your account anytime too easily schedule video or phone sessions plus securely exchange unlimited messages with your counselor. It's therapy two point better. Health offers support wherever you are whenever it's convenient and freakonomics radio listeners. Get Ten percent off your first month with the code freakonomics start now go to better help dot com slash freakonomics X. that's better help dot com slash freakonomics. Hey there I'm Steve. Lebed Stephen Dubner freakonomics friend and CO author. I'm the economics part of that title. We started this podcast in two thousand ten. Mostly the side project the books a decade later or expanding the FREAKONOMICS radio universe with a few spin off shows including perhaps one very much like this with me interviewing smart people especially unconventional thinkers in all sorts of fields. But we need your feedback. He Mel US AT RADIO AT FREAKING OUT DOT COM now back to my interview with raw manual a long time ago. Cw wrote a piece about me the New York Times. That was his brilliant guy and win. There was some problem. I scratch my head I typed in computer and some brilliant solution would pop out. I've been able to milk that for the last twenty years and it's really been helpful. You have a reputation as being ruthless and foul mouth and a tyrant so to what extent is that sort of a fake thing. You've cultivated to what extent helpful. Well first of all I don't care I mean here's my thing. I am tough for the things I believe in you one. You should know all my staff still people that work for me. When I was president senior advisor stay in touch with me and asked me to be references for their jobs accent. Now all I was was a screamer. Would that be possible? We're all more complicated than described. I actually think journalists unfortunately speed time etc you know. Did I send somebody a dead fish? Yes I did it and I'm not proud of what I did and I do. I would do it again. I wouldn't do it again at this point in my life but I would do it again at that point in my life. So you know. Look at my tough. Yea Am I passionate yes. Am I a caring person who reaches out to people who years ago worked for me for all the screaming and yelling that quote unquote? I only do. That's all I do. I only have one tool in my toolbox. That's it really now. Is it out there. Does it work for me sometimes? Sure but like update your metaphors man. I'd sent the dead fish close to thirty years ago. Okay but to you. I want to congratulate you taking one article making all the money. You did. Offer that one hundred so you probably don't remember but the first time we ever met in person was when you had decided to run for mayor we talk for a few minutes and I said you can't seriously want this job too Bayer of Chicago. Now is the worst job. In the world the city finances are in shambles. Pensions or unfunded and the crime. And you probably remember your answer but your whole demeanor changed and you're very quiet and like not like year like a guy or anything but you said I love Chicago and I'm the only guy who can save Chicago. I said I'm the only guy. Yeah you said that really struck me. Because I'd never met you obviously but I'd heard so many stories about how ruthless you were ended that moment like either great acting like really genuine sense that you were doing either authentic or faking so you come in you win. In each served two terms as mayor. And now you've written a book about Mayor Look. The introduction is about my grandfather's journey from eastern Europe and fleeing the progressives of Eastern Europe to come to a city as a ten year old and this city Made our family. I do believe it's most livable. Big City in America is the quintessential American city. And it's the city that welcome not only my grandfather but my father and we put our roots down here so it's home and you have Steve. I think some old shoes you refuse to throw away right and when I went to college I immediately came home when I left the Clinton White House. I immediately came home when I left. President Obama side. Emili came home. And so this is home and the book is about. You know the center of gravity of our politics we've had these fluxes between national versus local. We're in the beginning of what I think is a major local breath or center of gravity and diminished role for national. That's also true in Brussels in London etc. When you think about the way you work where you work how you get to work were you. Raise your kids etc. The Amenities of your neighborhood in community schools transportation libraries parks all of those are services. Your local government gives which is why seventy five percent of the public believe in their local government but only in the twenties for national the national governments becoming more and more like Disneyland on the Potomac. What's different this time also is that local governments are a mastering the schools. The transportation the libraries parks into these investments that are key for the vitality of their city in the residents. And they have to do it one because the national governments walking away to they don't have the option of standing still they have to make these investments just take education Lyndon Johnson at the height of the belief in the federal government. He creates head start. Cities are burning. People are fleeing and he gives mayor somebody for early childhood education and is to help mayors. Who can't get it together. Fast forward fifty years later. President Obama working with John Boehner. The speaker of the House are Republican. Who used to be the chairman of the educate me tries to create Universal Full Day pre K for early childhood education. Can't get it done so rather take no for an answer. He pulls together two hundred mayors and says look. I can't get this done at the national level but you guys are the only ones that can put some points on the board and You New York Chicago go to Boston and Goget San Antonio go across the country mayors are now finding the local resources for Universal Full Day. Pre K the need had and disappeared the government entity that could provide that new service that now Chicago on the other side of the educational equation. We were the first city to create with Chicago Star. Scholarship Free Community College tuition books and transportation. If you've got to be average in high school no Federal Government. No stake nothing. They never even called. Even though eight thousand kids have through it. Eighty one percent of that. Eight thousand are the first ones in a family to go to college. Boston's copied it Denver's copied at San Francisco's copied it. Oakland copied it but nobody expects Washington will do anything about this. What I admire but what you didn't education was. You're incredibly pragmatic you look at the situation. You said the school day in Chicago in the school years short the kids are getting something like two or three less years of education over twelve years. And you did. What Clinton taught you to do which was to fight doggedly at whatever cost with the end in mind and succeeded in doing that. I would not be sitting here across from you. If it wasn't two things the love of my parents and a good education and in government you can affect one can't affect the other so I believed in that and I made a pledge in the campaign of twenty eleven that our kids in Chicago had the shortest school day in the shortest school year in United States of America that is an unbelievable condemnation so before I was mayor even I was. Mayor elect changed the law so time was not in a contract negotiation in cooperation with the Teachers Union and remember eighty four percent of the children that go to the Chicago. Schools are from poverty or below. If you're starting with a blank sheet and you want to end the cycle poverty would you draft a five and a half hour day so that was one and then to that same negotiation in two thousand twelve? We ended up producing the resources for full day kindergarten for every child. So I've studied education for a long time and then it got discouraged because I actually think that we are asking too much by schools because absent not just the love of the parent but the focus on education. Apparently not I think. Sometimes we think the schools are somehow going to make up for deficits that they can't so. I'm a big believer in education but I also think that people should be realistic. First of all. You're right and wrong the whole debate. Which is what drives me crazy. No one teacher for forty five fifty minutes can push back against all the social economic cultural deficits walk into that room. It's impossible impossible now. The principal creates the culture in that building and it needs the entire building. Not One room out of that building to work number. Three we're going to have to be parents play a role in the child's education and we do have to ask our schools to take on more responsibility especially for kids of poverty because not every parent has the agency that Stephen Ram have and our partners. Let's be clear to deal with the education of a child and so the discussion should be fulsome. Think about it as a parent and then back up all the things. Stephen Rahm Amy. I don't know your spouse's name we do. And then what are the policies we can do that? Allow a child who doesn't grow up in Emanuel rule home have the same opportunities as same capacities. And if you then put those in place look one statistic to illustrate this point in the United States. Forty four percent of all high school kids go to college in Chicago. It's forty four percent. We don't have the same completion rate but we do have the same acceptance rate and attendance rate everything that would say not that child not that zip code not that income not that race not that gender. We have proven the cynics wrong. Do we have challenges absolutely? Are we done no but to you? That are depressed but are passionate about studying. I would tell you can be done. You'll get your head beaded I was six to when I started this job. I'm five eight now but you can do it. It can be done so it's not that you're saying that the city or the mayor is necessarily the right way to get things done you saying with the current dysfunction of the federal level. We're just completely screwed unless the mayor step and do this. It's at the right way to think about. I would love a federal parter. I don't WanNa do this on my own. You don't have an option as a mayor to wait and I think when you look at it if you think the federal government is distal your local government is pretty. I mean you said before Iran you and I had a conversation pretty intimate. The economy is Global. We're seeing it right now with the virus but all politics is local and I think the residents want a government that they can influence that influences their lives and that's more local than it is national. In what do you think? The mayors are becoming more important now. You think there's talent into that job without a doubt. Just take politics nationally right now. So Mayor Pete. Wins Iowa in New Hampshire? Joe Biden runs this ad ridiculing streetlights cobblestones when I'm dealing with Iran and healthier and people go. Yo streetlights and cobblestones. Some pretty good. That would be like as a governor. Michigan said just pave the dam road if you feel so alienated from your government. What is the one political government that's still has legitimacy to say extra? Why and that's your local government and your local government official and I think mayors today for host of reasons of leading the efforts on education leading the efforts on infrastructure investment leading the efforts on quality life. All the things that touch your life is your local government. Yep that's true and I have to say. I was highly skeptical of your premise. When I started reading the book it was surprisingly persuasive. Walk in with a C. B. Minus. I mean it's an unusual book in a Lotta Ways. It's part memoir. It's part policy. Wonk assure deep thinking so I describe it as a third political science a third of rethinking urban policy and politics and is you remember Winston Churchill towards the end of his tenure. They said how do you think history will treat you? And he goes very well. I plan on writing it. I would say one of the most surprising things. I've observed is the liveliness of cities. I mean thirty forty years ago. Cities were dying. I mean like everything was going against him. Crime poor financing bad schools and technology which was making it less and less important that people be face to face. And who would have ever predicted the turnaround? My Dad and mom less. I was in fourth fifth grade. We move to the suburbs. That's not happening today. All the things that drove you out or driving you back in. Is this a pretty unique? Social Cultural Economic Alteration. So what do you think happened because I like some I think about a lot? How did that happen? My own pet theory probably Bronco theories of not just about jobs but stuff is just gotten so cheap right so used to be like when we were kids in the TV broke. It was a big deal but now. Tv Brooks you like buy a new one. Just watch it on your telephone so I think stuff got so cheap and people got richer. Services became much more important in terms of the way people consume and the cities are the only place to get those kind of services that people want and that I think has been really important. A lot of people want the services or the benefits succumb with city living the Lakefront. The museums the theater the restaurants the bars in the same proximity of work and that put pressure on cities to improve schools improve. Their public transportation improved their parks their access. What parks offered and I'm proud of this as a former ballet dancer for a hundred reasons we came up with this thing called night out in the park which was cultural attractions in their parks from Shakespeare Theater to joffrey ballet to Chicago. Symphony for family wanted those amenities. They're like Outta reach even for a middle to upper middle class family. And so making sure that you could still have culture and all those things accessible and affordable and then there's a massive race across the globe that will never slow up for talent and Chicago has an incredible institutional strengthen this. Ge Healthcare left London for Chicago and McDonald's years ago left the suburbs realize that they can't find the talent they need staying were. They are the campus structure. They have the university and they took it here to Chicago. Now there are other things you gotta do to make. Sure everybody's a winner at that. Not just some people but companies are chasing talent. And we're you have talent. You'll have success. These days Emmanuel is contributed for ABC News in an adviser for interview Partners Investment. Bake giving his lengthy experience in public service. I wanted to ask him one more question about how history will view the Kobe. Nineteen crisis. Is this going to be seen? As a blip is this going to be seen now no history will see this as a pivotal point. Where not only are we globally? Interdependent for we're going to start to try to find ways to unlock that interdependence I don't think our supply chain ten years from now will look like it is today we are not going to be this reliance on China for medical supplies. Pharmaceutical supplies just won't happen and you know. Public health is dependent on separation segregation. The economy is built on a premise of integration and interdependence those two principles are in conflict right now and we have to figure out how they can't be in conflict but more collaborative and cooperative. We're GONNA have future pandemics and we're not going to be able to survive as a society where you're picking one or the other those are wise words. Raum and I hope that we won't this crisis go to waste. Can I say people will remember? The quote was never allow good crisis to go. Two ways is the opportunity to do the things you never thought possible and make them possible and so the emphasis was always not having a good crisis. Not Letting it go to waste. But what are you going to do that? You thought of love love to do that. But I can't for these twenty reasons the impetus then his identify. What are the key things in that crisis that have to get prepared for them? The future and that may be makes us all to quote you better data scientists that was former Chicago mayor. Rahm EMANUEL IN CONVERSATION with Steve Lebed in a special bonus episode. We'd love to hear your feedback at radio at Freakonomics Dot Com as well as suggestions for leads future interview subjects on his new podcast. Freakonomics radio is produced by stitcher and governor productions. This episode was produced by Harry. Huggins with help from Isabel. O'brien air staff also includes Ellison Craig Low Greg Rippin Zach Lipinski Matt Hickey. Daphne Chen and Karim Wallace. We had help on this episode from James Foster. Our theme song is Mr Fortune by the hitchhiker's all the music was composed by scare. You can get freakonomics radio on any PODCAST APP. If you want the entire tenure catalog use stitcher APP or go to freakonomics dot com. We can also be found on twitter. Facebook and Lincoln freakonomics radio also plays many. Npr stations. So if you live in America check your local listings we can also be found on the NPR ONE APP as always. Thank you for listening stitcher.

Chicago President Clinton President Ob President Clinton president Rahm Emanuel America Michael Levitt Democratic Congressional Campa chief of staff US Stephen Dubner White House New York Times Ezekiel University of Chicago National Government Federal Government Steve Levin google
Philosophize Your Life with Stephen West

Factually! with Adam Conover

1:17:11 hr | 9 months ago

Philosophize Your Life with Stephen West

"UNSPOILED is back for season two Paul and amy tackle the one hundred, and now they're making their own list starting with back to school movies. Check out the first episode on mean, Girls Right now on stitcher apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there it's Adam. If you've dreamt your entire life about listening to factually without ads, I mean I certainly do and getting access to all of our older episodes. Then make that dream a reality by signing up for stitcher premium just go to stitcher premium dot com or the premium tab in your stitcher APP and sign up with the Promo Code factually. To get a free month of premium listening, you'll get an free listening to factually, and for all your favorite ear wolf and stitcher shows plus our full episode archive. So you can hear every interview I have ever done and your premium subscription has support me and your wolf network that stitcher premium dot com Promo code factually for a month of stitcher premium. Take Long figure out that I just think differently than other people. There, Stephen Dubner, and that's my. FRIEND AND CO author Steve Levin I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena. Huey. Behavior in weird circumstances but it is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called I mostly admire listen on stitcher apple podcasts spotify or where every podcasts. Polo welcome to factually I'm Adam Khan over and you know we're going to continue our little philosophy series on the show today. If you've been listening you've heard a couple episodes. We've had with some incredible philosophers, Quill Kook La Incredible thinker love that conversation check it out. If you didn't hear it last week we had Susan Schneider on to talk about issues with Trans Humanism and mind uploading and how we need to apply philosophy to those questions. If you've been listening to this show, you know that I studied philosophy a little bit myself and that is what put me on the path to doing comedy and the work. I. Do today, you literally would not be listening to me right now if not, for philosophy, it became a a really basic part of my thinking, but I also have to admit that flosse often can feel very confined very distant from our own lives. You know if you've taken a philosophy class ever in your life, you probably know the pursuit of academic philosophy can be really conceptual and dry. It sometimes can be hard to know why it matters how it affects your life like what are the fundamental questions of ontological metaphysics or pistole molope have to do with even more fundamental questions like what the fuck should I wake up and do tomorrow. Right, those are the things that actually could turn our lives. Sometimes, it feels like philosophy doesn't have that much to say about them but that thought is very at odds with the origins of what we often call. Western. Philosophy. For instance, let's go back to ancient Greece ancient Greek philosophers had very strong ideas about how you should live your life. It was basically a world of Toga Clad Stepdad's Plato and socrates where all about trying to discover how to live the right kind of life what they called the good life they were asking and attempting to answer the question of what is the right way to live for instance, socrates argued that. We should focus on the pursuit of virtue rather than the pursuit of, for instance, material wealth and conducted investigations into what virtues actually were like, what do we mean by that word? What behaviors and values should we consider virtuous and it wasn't just them the ancient world developed entire schools of thought about what actions were best and how to live the STOIC. For instance, thought that negative feelings like fear envy we're just incorrect judgments in the mind and that if you were smart enough or moral enough, you wouldn't even feel them. So they believe that you could make yourself immune from suffering and that by feeding yourself a rich diet of virtue. Happy. Again, this is a philosophy not concerned with just abstract statements about truth, but how to live and how to be happy in your life. Now, if the STOIC sound less like heroic moral aragones and more like anal retentive buzzkill skills, well, maybe prefer to follow epicurious. This dude had a very clear directive for living pleasure is the only true and real good for humans love that and pain is intrinsically fundamentally bad epicurious actually made the argument that pleasure properly conceived in understood of course, will lead to virtue to living the right kind of life. And Hate, let me tell you sounds like a blast and it's not just that question about how to live. We forget that pretty much every field of endeavor used to be wrapped up in philosophy. It wasn't quite as science or an art. It was a way to apply rigorous thinking to your own actions to help you quite literally figure out what to do tomorrow, and this is a question that you know. We still need answered I. Don't know if you've noticed but people who they are still pretty confused about what the right way to live is a lot of people have that concern they're searching for those answers which leads me to wonder is philosophy something that could still help us today not just to understand the universe, but literally in our personal lives, well, as our guest on the show today, we have someone who very much thinks that it does and he is the. Perfect guest to talk to us about this Stephen. West is the host of philosophize this it's a fantastic podcast I've been listening to it for years. It gives a chronological breakdown of the history of Western philosophy for a popular audience. You can listen to this podcast for just thirty minutes and come away with a whole new understanding of a philosopher's work. It is really wonderful and most interestingly Stephen is an auto didactic did not go to Grad. School for Philosophy, he has simply red more philosophy than almost anyone else ever spoken to including professional philosophers. This is a guy who just had burning questions about the world and how to live his own life and turned to philosophy to answer them with wonderful results. His story is incredibly inspiring and hearkens back to the way philosophy worked way way way back then in ancient Greece. So without further ado, please welcome I guess this week Stephen West. Well they. Stephen No problem some a big fan of your podcast philosophize this I've been listening to it for years. It's a really wonderful way to get like capsule like downloads of different philosophers work We now we've had academic philosophers on this show before Quilt Cupola and others But the first time we talked you and I spoke like. Three years ago now yes sir. All right. That You've got a very different trajectory into philosophy at a really different path. into it can you just tell tell us about that? Right. So it it actually came out by means of necessity. I. Long. Story Short I was in foster carole throughout my childhood lots of chaos lots of abuse and I was homeless at the age of sixteen and I needed to drop out of high school I couldn't go to college. But. Luckily enough when I was working fulltime than I realized that. I was really angry and I had a lot of work to do on myself and I was looking for answers. How like I to be honest I was looking for mentors at the time and I didn't really have any avenues into one. So I literally googled wisest person in history of the world thinking if I read the words of somebody wise maybe some of it'll rub off on me and the. First result on Google, at the time was Plato's Dialogue Gorgias and it was about a man named socrates who around the Athenian Agra and he accosted people and ask them questions about courage and temperance and I honestly hooked from the beginning and I I guess it'd be completely cliche. The rest is history like read and interpreted philosophy pretty much everyday sense. Why that's a that's an incredible story. That's you said without without going to college. Did you get high school degree? No I I had to drop out to work fulltime. What kind of work are you doing? I was bagging groceries at a grocery store and then use that. I like I just worked hard every day and then ask them if I get a transfer to the warehouse because a paid more. and. That's where I spent about nine years of my life just picking boxes and Being completely sold at the end of the day and miserable and Yeah. And reading philosophy coming home reading philosophy yes. Sir I mean it was my passion that whole time but also You could listen to music at the warehouse technically, if you had ear buds but I would just break the rules and I'd listen to audio books about philosophy. Right on cast and stuff so. I was criminal but. Coming here. You really think the the former would come around go hey what are you? Hey West what are you doing? We'll give me that earbud. What is that aristotle? It's actually kind of funny because they they would notice that would be deep in thought as I was picking and they'd funding and they're like, what kind of music do you listen trance like it was actually They could tell I was doing something that other people weren't I have to say I mean do you feel it all lucky? Look a lot of your story. I'm sure you would not say you feel lucky but to have a job where. Often I crave work that were my hands are occupied, but my mind is not you know. So often a lot of my work is like you know very mental and I can't do those two things at once and I'm like I wish I could just. Doing the dishes because I can listen to an audio book you know what I mean and I wonder if that's like you know you're doing that kind of work. Let you let your mind work while your hands busy. Yeah I mean absolutely I certainly couldn't do it if I had a job at a bank or something like that. But I also couldn't apply for a job really because I didn't have a high school diploma feet the only way I could have gotten that job without getting a ged or furthering my education is if I lied on the application and told them at high school diploma and they just never checked. And also in the country before I do in fact, feel lucky for my childhood and I mean how it was raised at got me to where I am now. There there's a famous quote by nature. It's one of my favorite quotes that He. That he wishes. Self mistrust in the. Wretchedness of the vanquished in all these horrible things upon people because it, it shows the thing. The only thing that can show whether you're worth anything or not that one endorse and I've always related to that quote because I feel lucky for having those experiences. Like can you can you dig into that a little bit more like which experiences and how did they Is there a specific one that you feel contributed? Sure I mean when you're I'm sure there's something about meeting to bring order to chaos. That is the reason why I'm capable of explaining philosophy the way. I. Do I mean people say that I have a gift? I don't really see it as a gift I see it as like. It I mean when you're nine years old and you're homeless and you get picked up by CPS in your from group home to group home to respite home to foster home. That's a very chaotic crazy environment to live and and if you can't make sense of it as a child, you develop skills to be able to make sense of it I think. I'd say that. But but I just say look I mean people listening to the show I was a I have a bachelors in philosophy right? That's that's very it's those least degree you can get I by no means an expert but. You know. So much of my time was spent wishing I, could like dig into the reading more right like I was fascinated by the ideas but I was like I'm having trouble getting through cont you know what I mean. So much that time is struggling and you yet under like I was in a much more privileged relaxed circumstance where in fact, my only job right for four years of my life was to do that kind of reading and I still struggled with it and you seem as though you were you just sort of were able to start inhaling it even though you're in much less comfortable circumstances and I'm curious what you attribute that to 'cause I 'cause I listened that I'm like man that's impressive. I wish I wish I could do that. I think I was desperate and I cared I. I knew that I was messed up I knew that I needed to develop myself as a person and I didn't really have any strong leads other than that and so I just became super passionate about I. Mean if you're obsessed with something need to be obsessed with something I just picked philosophy. Yeah and at what point did you decide to start the podcast? About, two, thousand, thirteen, the early. January of two, thousand, thirteen I think is when I actually got the first idea because I just looked around me at that warehouse and I just hated my life and I just wanted more out of life I knew that I did and so I just started researching. How to start a podcast and? I mean how to build a community online seo, all the stuff that people research when they want to start a podcast. And about six months in I just said. Man. I'm going to do today and so I did it and people seem to enjoy it. It's grown since then a lot. So yeah, I mean it's a it's an extremely solid podcast and you not only you sort of you sort of have gone through philosophy chronologically away. Right? Yeah definitely at first I skipped around a bit just for the sake of what listeners have wanted over the years I've changed strategies. But this last year, I extensively covered political philosophy in the twentieth century that was chronological. So I guess yeah, it is chronological and I think that's important when you're learning about philosophy because you can see how the next generations polymath genius refuted the previous generations and you can see in real time the assumptions that Plato had that Aristotle corrected that then the Hellenistic period corrected and Aristotle and then So on and so forth you know. Well. So let's go back. To when you started reading, you said you started with Plato's Dialogue Gorgeous, Gorgeous. Yes. and from there where did that take? You like how tell me a little bit your own personal progression through the history of philosophy were you literally following that thread that hallway. Yourself from Plato to Aerostat Onto The folks who commented on them. No, I skipped around over the years So. My initial trajectory was that I read gorgeous and then I quickly realized I was so luckily so lucky to quickly realize this to learn about Herman. And I quickly realized that I read gorgeous and thought that I understood Plato and really just conferred tons of modern prejudices and biases onto Plato and thought that I understood him when in reality there's so much context that you need to even come close to be able to understanding those source texts. So then I started reading a lot of secondary work I did that for about four or five years and that really gave me A. Huge basis of historical and cultural context to work off of, and then I started reading a lot of those source stuff is that what Herman Dudek says I actually don't know what Herman it exists. So Herman Huda is the process of Biblical exegesis or philosophical interpretation of. The Interpretation Philosophical Works so There's a lot of people that get into philosophy and they just go down to Barnes and noble and they get a few books off the shelf and they read them and they either don't understand them in are frustrated or they feel like they understand they don't really understand them and yeah, that's a poor approach I think because. It. There's so much about if you read a book from six hundred years ago, you may as well be reading a book written by somebody that lives on a distant planet and Afar waste solar system I mean. There are so many cultural differences you need to know about their personality you need to know what's been going on regionally at the time during their time and you know what questions they thought were worth answering where they exist within the history of philosophy and it's not until you consider all of these things and many more that you can really get to the bottom of what they were trying to say rather than. A again, conferring modern prejudices onto it. Yeah. so He's headed Yeah, and it's very much like even in my united very liberal arts philosophical training, but it's still very much like. A lot of times in the way philosophy is taught. It's taught almost like a math equations. You know like we're just looking at, hey, we're gonNA take these thoughts words on a page you know and we're going to evaluate them based on their internal consistency et Cetera and see how others refuted them Etcetera Etcetera, and there isn't as much of a focus on at least in my own training unlike the world that those folks lived I mean sometimes it's there but but there is a tendency to treat philosophy is divorced from the world. There's actually quilt Glenn I talked about this quite a bit with facts it's like really rooted in. The world and so you need to understand where those philosophers lived, what their world was like. Yeah, I actually agree with you in your intro to that episode, you were talking about how philosophy is probably best used in a practical sense. How can it be applied to people's lives actually and I think there's a distinction that can be made between continental and analytic traditions that probably is useful there but there's a lot of crossover and you. There's a lot of continental people that do work. That is doing linguistic analysis like you're talking about or. A formal logic or just I mean. Tons of stuff like what you're talking about where it is more academic and setting. but yeah I think that is one of the big reasons philosophy is valuable is that it can help people in their lives. In fact, in many ways I'm walking proof of the fact that he can help you develop yourself as a human being and Yeah, I mean that's That's I. Mean That's my story. And Yeah, let's talk about that piece of it a little bit what what were. Sort of craving you talk about order and chaos, right. But what what was that you're craving and why did you find that in philosophy like it sounds so much like you know people find that sort of solace or or meaning in their lives you hear people. Talking about religion in that way, for instance. It seems it seems rare for that to happen philosophy. What tell me about that piece of it. Well I think. The answer is that we're all telling ourselves a story at a certain level and. Lock on the capital t objective truth out there, and you shouldn't feel bad about that at all like we're all telling ourselves a story at a certain level because we come into this world and our parents tell us stories I, mean they tell you that there's a flying fairy that lifts up your pillow and gives you a quarter. They tell you there's a giant money that leaves you eggs for some reason I mean. Like and then they'll stories develop as we age, and then at a certain point around eighteen to twenty two, I guess for a lot of people. When they're? Forced formal education and they just sort. Decide that they're good. Question the assumptions that they use to make sense of and chop up the world. Yeah. That's that's honestly how it helped me. I realized that. Whenever, you come from a background of chaos and of fear and of abuse. You can become jaded. So quickly, you can just look around your world and over simplify it and just think that you have it all figured out and then drink herself to sleep every night but that wasn't going to be my fate and so think philosophy really is in the business of questioning those basis those. Base assumptions that we. Have every day that. That allow us to over simplify I guess. Yeah I mean that's was. Certainly, I my story is very different, but that's certainly like my attraction to it was. I've felt compelled to continue to question those stories you know, and that's very much. Seventeen eighteen years old. That's sort of like what you do. Right people are telling you things and you're like, why is everyone just swallowing this shit? Like like hold on a second. I I. This is this is much more cliche but you know I remember being very taken by taking by Descartes's project. I think that was probably the first piece of philosophy that was introduced to. My first philosophy class I was like in college and and running around from. You know literally, some other class I wanted to take was like full and I think I'll take a philosophy class why not and the I think the first thing we did was descartes's investigation of like You know the the I think therefore, I am essay I actually don't remember what What the name of the pieces but just that like investigation of like how can I be sure of anything right how can I be sure of reality around me? What's the number? One thing that I can hold onto you know and that sort of like project I was very intoxicated by like what do you? What do you start with right that? That like undermining of everything that you think that you know is like still to me like the main, the main project fascinates me. What's interesting to me is that you can think that you're questioning all the sheep out there and still yourself be engaged in a story or a narrative that is completely over simplified and be so confident in it. I. Mean. That was my story when I was eighteen when I was eighteen, I was working at that warehouse and I listened to talk radio to and from work conservative talk radio like hardcore stuff I listened to everybody and I was so convinced that all these sheep all democrats out there just didn't understand the world like, I did and. I've been burned so many times before the like now philosophy. Has just given me this level of humility where I'm just never going to be that way again, I mean I think that is the ultimate value of philosophy personally is that it takes you down a peg or two like I've never met anybody that's truly well versed in the western Canon of philosophy where they've truly done the legwork and spent thousands of hours reading that is trying to proselytize worldview convert people to a way of life like there's always couching their statements and will surely somebody knows more about the scenario do maybe I don't understand this position well, but here's my position and I just admire that humility and I think it's a sign of maturity. I agree with you, but it's so interesting. That you put it that way because you said you were looking for. Order and you know to help you understand the world right and so often people will gravitate towards one of those intermediate stories that you mentioned. You know everything's bullshit. Here's what's really going on right right You know I'm washing the blood of Christ or there's a lizard people who are controlling the world etcetera right and there's a I'm sorry I'm not trying to conflate. Christianity that sort of conspiracy theory those are two different types of things. But people, we sort of default to these stories that give us almost a simpler explanation sometimes right But what you did was you engage in investigation that leaves you with no clear answer right with no clear narrative that you're stuck to all the time which strikes me as a much harder thing. Yeah I mean it took me. Fifteen years of reading philosophy to get there I mean at first I did gravitate towards the. Those like vast systems within the history of philosophy that? I mean this week. I. Was NICCI and this week I was a fan of, and then eventually just I got burned so many times in a row like I just I mean that's the thing about philosophy you you're right about things and then you find out you're wrong the next day and then you think you're right about that and then you're wrong the next day after that, and that's the beauty of philosophy on one hand but the frustrating part about it on on on the other and I just. That's my story. Is that you know I? I subscribe to so many narratives over the years and then questioned the assumptions of those and look for the counterpoint play. Devil's advocate found out I was wrong. So many times that now I just try to remain. Humble. What's is there a particular example of that that you have of of you used to believe? This philosophical position philosophical point than you read a particular reputation that that turned you around. Yeah I mean it's I I have hundreds I used to believe in. Plato's idea of an ideal world of forms and that if only we reason clearly and distinctly enough in the Athenian Agar long enough with our friends that are also philosophers. And get to the bottom of what the essence of a tree is why we can go into the forest and see all these trees that are slightly different but still identified that they're all trees there must be some essence to them that we can arrive at, and maybe we can arrive at perfect definitions of things and then Chisel Limited, stone and just. Have a language that's much more accurate than ours is. But then I read bit consign for the first time and he just totally made me feel like an idiot and. Derrida just the idea that words gain their meaning through their use within a linguistic community that from a democratic perspective, the meanings of words are decided by the people that are actually using them and right happens regionally that happens by culture that happens worldwide. So yeah, there isn't an essence of tree underneath because tree is is a category that exists in the human mind. Right. That was a little bit more psychological than linguistic, but the same principle. Yeah. Well, I mean I like I think that they were looking for the definition which they saw as the perfect essence. Were conducting a form of linguistics even though I don't think that they would have seen it that way. It's yeah. I think that when you think you can arrive at the essence of something because that is somehow fixed. Fixed, eternally into the fabric of the universe that I think when you. Read Victim Stein or Fifty year I mean who whoever you want to read. It's a it's just irrefutable once you realize how language works it's a living breathing organism that's constantly moving constantly shifting. It's so much more complex than the idea that there can be a philosopher king that writes down Merriam Webster's dictionary what all the words mean, and we're just GONNA learn them and use them. Yeah change constantly. But have you arrived at any of your own positions at the end of all this I mean again, what you're talking about this process of self undermining do I really understand this here's a reputation that makes me think differently, that's the philosophical process at least as I've experienced it and certainly as used, you've experienced much more intently intensely but at the end of the day have you. Do you hold any positions yourself as a have any. Clearly, they've stuck with you in some ways some of the things that you've read. So I've never formed anything on my own I just. have. Put together a conglomeration of everybody else's ideas and tried to live my life as happy as I can. I mean the goal of philosophy was always leave Hillary of it for me. It wasn't for me to eventually become a philosopher in fact I. Don't see myself as a philosopher at all I. See myself as more of an educator But when you are You know when you're reading, you're you're probably the one of the folks most widely read philosophy who have spoken to a couple academic philosophers but I feel like You know you've you've. Just. Mainland a lot of reading the last fifteen years. Are there not some of those positions that you've read that you're like yeah. That's the one I've landed on at least for now, right? Yeah. Absolutely and that's what I was saying that I have a conglomeration of a bunch of different thinkers that come together into a working theory with reality and I mean also the thing that a lot of people might be thinking is that. If you think that you know that you can no nothing. Then how can you know that you know nothing a classic philosophical debate right right I just WANNA be clear. That's more of a pragmatic personal thing to me than a claim that I'm making about how things are like I'm like I'm really just saying that's my experience of things and I because I've read things and believe them and then been proven wrong the next week so many times in the past I just. For pragmatic reasons, I just try to remain humble. When I? Am like interfacing with reality when I to somebody else about their worldview short of it being just. cartoonish dumb I just really try to respect people I really try to. Not Relegate my teachers to people with patches on the elbows at work at a university. There's so much wisdom all around you if you look for it. Yeah. I get what you're saying. It's not a matter of not having beliefs or not having positions. It's a matter of holding them loosely of realizing that this is what I believe right now. But there's a lot of folks who are smarter than me are. There's a lot of new ideas that I haven't experienced yet, and so when you're having a conversation with another thinker or reading something, it's Medavoy. Well, here's what I think right now but I could be proven wrong right like I'm open to hearing. I'm open to new information I'm open to being refuted. Yeah I mean totally and I think a lot of people would hear that. Prognosis on life and they would think that it sounds kind of depressing like how can you ever I mean if? You can never be confident in anything. Then how can you really live life fully but I would say I compare my experience in it to like if you go to the gym and you're working out and you see results in the mirror and you're that gives you this surge of dopamine and you feel really good about it for me when I've been proven wrong and I find out something new and I find out that I didn't know everything I get that surge dopamine and that's what keeps me going back to the. philosophical Jim every day I guess. Would you read right now? I am reading a lot of secondary stuff on the philosophy of humor because it's my next episode. Humor, yes. Also, rereading a twilight of the gods by Nietzsche because this quarantines been. It's been a deal man this is not out humans are supposed to live. Yeah I. Mean You maybe have that thought of like well, I'll get a lot of reading done but then I mean, you can't just spend all your time inside reading. It's it. It makes it hard to do. You're reading when you try to live that way So, there's a lot of people in my building that are over eight years old I. Live on the water and. I have had to take extra precautions when it comes to this quarantine I literally have not left my house in four and a half months except for once Be like except for the trash compactor, which is two feet from my door. I have not spoken to another human being you're the first person I know of. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's it's it's been rough man but. I mean, we all have a responsibility and I just want to make sure that I'm doing my part. Yeah absolutely. Well, I want to hear more about the philosophy of humor. Obviously, it's very Topic of interest but we gotta take a quick break. We'll be right back with more Stephen West. There are so many questions that run through your mind when you're looking for a new place, is it close to pizza? Will My neighbors be Weirdos? Should I take my old couch with me or is it time to finally say goodbye it is getting a little musty dusty. These are all great questions but the one question apartments dot com make sure you don't have to ask is whether you've found the right place because with more listings than anyone else they say they make sure that no matter what you're looking for you will find it. It doesn't matter whether you're upgrading downsizing, settling down bachelor padding or empty. NESTING. 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But I'm really curious about this because when I was when I was studying philosophy and I was also starting to do comedy, I wanted to know what philosophy had to say about comedy and humor, and there's very little I remember there was one book about jokes that I read I forget who wrote it. Really analyzing linguistics structure of basically street jokes of like a rabbi walks into a bar jokes and I was like this is not even comedy to me. It's not interesting and there was another one I think on humor which I didn't I didn't get much out of it was written by very old people who who were about a kind of humor that I didn't agree with I've read about. Occasionally a theory will come across I. Remember reading about like benign violation theory which was. Someone's idea that like you know. It's funny to have a violation of a certain Maure or value that we have in a way that's actually harmless because it's in the context of a joke or story I'm like. Well, that covers like maybe ten percent of all things I find funny. Really Fall into that category so. I find it interesting. There's been so much philosophical writing about beauty. For instance, I took a whole class on know art and aesthetics, and that's a whole sub field of philosophy is philosophy and art. Aesthetic? Philosophy. Comparatively extremely little on laughter and humor despite the fact that it's. A very basic human thing that we all do like crying or you know or anything else like that. Right? Right Why do you? Why do you think that is and what have you found in your own research into it? So I think it's because the history of Western philosophy has largely been concerned with metaphysical claims, epistemological claims to try to figure out the universe I. Think we're very spatially minded as human beings and I think that people. Thought for so long that philosophy could give us access. If only we had the right math equation if only, we had the right theory than we could understand all of the first principles of the universe. Through. Philosophy and I think that there's been. I mean, like me not just with comedy although what you said is true the actual research this episode has been pretty sporadic I think there's only like ten or twelve books throughout history that have been written in the gold standard by the way, Henry Berg's and in the early twentieth century. But I'll check it out I. was it was the name was the name of his work on it. I think it's on humor. Okay. I'm reading it on Kendall. I read the title. But Yeah I, mean I think that? There's been an overall. Starvation of philosophical interest when it comes to a lot of internal experiences and that was one of Berg's big points when I actually writing that book is that. Generally speaking philosophers have ignored a lot of things about our internal experience and he wanted to I, mean that's the scope of his work as he wanted to explore those more. Yeah. I, mean. What a strange thing that again, there's this. Sort of you know human function like certain things happen we make a sound that's involuntary in many cases right? It seems not tied to culture at least entirely it's something that's done across cultures. It's something that is physical yet also mental and cultural I. It's because it happens in you experience it when another human does something or create something right yet it creates an involuntary reaction you. So it's this occupies this weird space where it simultaneously social and physical. And it's it's humans have been doing it as long as there have been humans and yet they're so little philosophy which covers so many as has barely covered it. It's fascinating. Yeah. It's actually funny that you say that the. Approaching it from the inverse because that's what content as well. He he described laughter and humor not as anything that can be described psychologically but actually a physical sensation and we associate the mental experience that we're having with an actual sensation that were happening like we're tensing up our muscles were shaking like you said involuntary sounds. And Yeah I mean, that's Super Interesting. But there are tons of other theories I mean there's Stick go all the way back to the ancient Greeks that. Whenever we laugh at something it is because we feel at some level we are superior to some victim in that joke like we we. We laugh because a a thing is funny to us because we experience a feeling of superiority to that thing that's going on and there's been tons of theory cents a cover on the on on the episode so. Have you one of the things that's most fascinating to me about doing comedy that I that I noticed when I, started doing it. Is that There's also a huge amount of it where Y- The people the person experiencing the comedy. Loses control over the course of their own thoughts right over their own, their own train of thought, and instead it's controlled by the performer. Right. The classic experiences you join an audience and this is something I I had to learn when I became a comedian is that You need to to as a comedian, you take the audience which has previously been a whole bunch of individuals who are all thinking different thoughts right they have different little bits of chatter going on in their brain you need to get them to all focus on you and all have the same thought simultaneously and follow the same train of thought, and then eventually you're going to introduce thought that makes them all make the same sound at once right and that's like what you're physically trying to do. And that seems to be a big part of the experience is not is like that sort of weird subsuming of the individual consciousness into a group consciousness right and if you are watching a comedy on TV kind of works the same way you're not necessarily with a lot of other people. But you know you're watching the same episode of thirty rock in your own living rooms and you've all been sort of entranced in like you're all following the thirty rock train of thought, rather than your own mind burgling around right seems to be a weird part of the experience. The It'd be a critical part of the experience to me I, wonder if you have any thoughts on that. No not. Not Different. From Yours I, mean I think that's a really good point and it is super interesting I don't know. How that would be connected but I do find it interesting and like me not to step on the other episode the too much but I find it so interesting. that. There are such similarities between comedians and philosophers in the sense that they are. They're looking at the world around them trying to subvert the the the actual order of things and Yeah I. Mean I I, just find that connection between comedy and philosophy increasingly interesting. Yeah that is a really interesting extra. It's also like. You know very the you. Our image of the ancient philosopher is not someone who is like sitting alone up in a room you know writing and reading but someone who is like out talking with other people and like giving a giving a speech on the streets, which is very similar to a stand up comedian in a way. Very similar and I think. I mean some of them lived on the streets and they. Like. I think. That's something that's lost in our modern world. I think that. But I think we're moving in the right direction honestly the world has become increasingly politicised of the last four years. People are having these conversations about philosophy more and more whether they realize they're doing it or not, and I think we're living in a time where we're starving for values. In this modern world but we're also increasingly having these conversations where we need to engage in philosophy and yeah. These philosophical conversations and especially in the world were living in right now a classical optical question like what is justice? How can we apply that justice to our society? How can we implement it? That is an extremely important question and to question the value of philosophy when asking those big questions is the only way that we can get there. I think is is wrong and it's funny because I feel like sometimes there's a stigma with talking about philosophy. I mean if you were at dinner and you brought up a question like that like what is justice? Let's go around the table and you Give me your opinions on that I. Don't think I think a lot of people would laugh like I'd I mean people talk about philosophy as though it's this. Pseudo intellectual field where people are just rambling about unverifiable speculation. But I think it's important to have it because it's the only realm it's it's it's the only forum or weekend ask those big questions and try to make our societies better. Yeah. Yeah I have to say I've been guilty of turning my nose up in that way out of the kind of philosophy that people do because people do do it in their daily lives but we we do look down at a bit. You know like like something just. An image that always. Stuck with me was was being at a wedding. I remember WHO's wedding wasn't someone that was close to but the best man, the wedding saying like odd dude, all those days you emmy spent like out on the back porch like smoking Blonston talk about philosophy. You know what? I mean like sort of thing and I was like Oh man, these guys I have a bachelors in philosophy like what were these guys talking about? Like I had a little bit of a snootiness in me in that moment and like all there are probably talking about the Matrix or whatnot right and that was when I started taking philosophy was was right after the matrix came out and so every class was like. It. was you know was was descartes through the Matrix. Right of how you know how do we know whether our reality is real or not? But I don't know I feel I feel stupid for for looking down my nose. That's because everyone has those questions right and like those those folks are still engaging in that in that philosophical inquiry even though they're just getting started, right? Exactly. Just, newbies that's how I'd see it is that they just haven't engaged in that process for very long which I think is a lot of people's experience when they first get out of higher education and they try to learn things and they start studying philosophy is just like, wow, I actually have a lot to learn here and maybe not even self aware of it in the moment they think that they're talking about really deep stuff but I think. I mean personally I would still encourage that behavior. Because I think that it's valuable. Eventually they're gonNA wake up one day and realized that, wow, I've grown a lot here. But like me not said, you're snootiness is not completely unfounded. I mean people misappropriate the word philosophy all the time and Like I mean again, words get their you their meaning from their use within a linguistic community. So who am I to say what the word philosophy means but I think? If a person calls the Bible philosophy like if a person asked me for a recommendation of philosophical texts, I wouldn't give them the Bible and it's not because I don't think that there's great insights in there or ways that you can live your life to 'cause. I don't think there's any meaning that can be gleaned from there. It's that it's just not useful. It's so different from the projects of. People like Kant people like Vitkin, Stein like each like they're just trying to do something. So different that it doesn't seem useful to even refer to it as philosophy. What's your relationship with? The Academy right with with academic philosophy and clearly you've read a lot of it's a lot of its output right but it's not something that you've sought to go into yourself at least. Has it been no it hasn't an all. Why is that? Because I feel the same way that you do I tend to agree with you that. The best place for philosophy is in practical usage I I mean that's why I do the show that I tried to make philosophy more accessible to people that are looking for it to be able to improve their lives. Make themselves happier now be. A Totally encumbered by irrational beliefs that they haven't police yet I mean that's the story of a lot of people they live their entire lives believing irrational things. I mean you talked about Lizard people earlier you believe that Hollywood was run by Lizard. People. Think of how that could be holding you back from. So many things in your life if you don't police that irrational belief I mean, that could be the reason they kick out of the job interview at after five minutes could be the reason you never go on a second date that could be the reason you don't leave your house because you're scared the lizard people are outside I mean there's so opportunity cost. Potentially, if you have irrational belief and that's that's why I think is important as a process engaging. Sometimes I feel worried that. Philosophy as much as I enjoy it as much as I dive into, it is not capable though of changing my at route beliefs and that instead they're coming from somewhere else does that make sense like like the question that I was really engaged with again in my four years studying philosophy seriously was What is consciousness? Right? What is the question of conscious I wrote a senior thesis on on the question of the mind body, problem? Is. The is consciousness. Physical thing right or is it something else? Right? Right and I did a lot of reading. I'll be honest at the end of those couple years I spent on that I was not. I had read only very small portion. Of, all the writing that's been done on that subject and I certainly had no way of proving any position. I might have Right I had read people much smarter than me who had made arguments in every single direction right and I was basically at sea with it but I left thinking you know what? I think this is a physical. Phenomenon because I'm fundamentally feel I'm a materialist I. believe that you know like the physical world is the only kind of stuff that exists for the most part, right? and. That's just sort of where I'm landing and it makes the most sense to me right But I always and I sort of felt myself settling on that position but I was also aware like well, I'm not I haven't actually like proved that to myself in any substantial way that probably comes more from say my upbringing right I was raised by scientists right? Who have a very materialist view of the world that sort of like my Emotional. Starting place. Right. Like the point of I'm basically defaulting the point of view. I. Started with for the most part even though I learned plenty and I you know. Exhumed many of my ideas I still sort of defaulted to that and I. I don't know I i. wonder if that's what a lot of us do like you know when I talked with a psychologist, you know, for instance David dunning about you know the the backfire effect and all these other psychological phenomenon where you know the smarter that we get the better we are just proving what we already believed for for instance, that like you know that's how human minds work in a lot of ways we're very limited and we ended up snapping back like a rubber band much more than. We expect that we do and even there's phenomenon or even learning about that process doesn't stop you from doing it right? That's what David Dunning said on our episode was he's like I'm aware of all these biographies that I have and all of these flaws in my rationality that doesn't mean I can escape them right I. I. can be aware of them but that doesn't mean I can. I can fight back against and so I wonder I wonder what you're feeling is about that because you have a very optimistic view that like, Hey, by learning these things, we can like really improve our lives. Whereas what I just laid out as much more pessimistic view. Yeah so I mean you very will. Like I. Mean you very well maybe you're right about that I'm only going off of my own subjective experience and the experience in getting thousands of emails from people saying that they've fundamentally changed their worldview by. Listening to the show and engaging the idea is. That said, that's only the plural form of anecdote. On a yeah I mean I think you could absolutely be right. What's I mean? What's funny is that there are thousands and thousands of stories that we can believe it at any point in life I mean you I actually agree with that person that. I mean, there's a philosopher occur needs where he didn't believe that the person that won the debate was more correct. He'd stopped that they argued it better and so the. Yeah, he's he's he's actually one of my favorite philosophers and super fascinating and the idea that you could have some. Narrative, that actually isn't more true than any other narrative at all that they're all sort of equal but you just argue to yourself better and better than anybody that comes into try to like. Put a chink in the armor. You're just really good at arguing positions against them, and so you have the defense this this iron dome that keeps out any sort of progress that's totally possible to I'm I'm down with that. Yemen, I was talking to My My friendship on Thompson is very funny. Comedian was telling me a story about I think family member who was involved in cult deprogramming or something like that who told her? Don't get into a debate with a with a cultist right with like a scientologist. Because they're way more prepared than you don't walk into the Scientology Building and say I'm GonNa take you folks down right because they've been trained. They know how to win the debate. They've got a decision tree of like say this I say this you say this I say this right and the reason that works is because it worked on them. You know they lost a debate at some point in their life and they said, okay, we'll. I'll go in there and I guess I guess I gotTa Join, and that doesn't make them rights. You know the fact that they can beat you at that. And and yeah, I think accordingly, like the the narratives that we have just because it's very convincing to us doesn't mean it's true like stories and narratives and trains of thought are the human mind not the reality outside of our minds. So it's certainly possible for saying to hook into US, more than its truth value justifies. Absolutely and that's how I feel when I talked to people about politics. It's like I'm stepping into their world. They argue at the water cooler every single day they've heard everything that I ever say and have a strong rebuttal but I'm pretty sure neither side is right I'm pretty sure neither of them of as. the truth I'm just stepping into their. Their environment that they're comfortable and come talk to me about philosophy sometime, and they never do just to hear alone in quarantine. How do you try to get people to like you just try to have more conversations about philosophy in your daily life? I used to in my early twenty s I. Actually was kind of an asshole I used to bring up conversations all the time to people just. So I could refute their points just just for some sort of like weird satisfaction that is gained out of it because I was insecure. But like anymore, no, I honestly never talk to people about philosophy if. I mean except for listeners sometimes on. My discord. But yeah, I mean I just can't. It's. It's such a personal thing to me now honestly, and I don't like I'm not going to be swayed by anybody and. Like a person recommends a book and I've already heard of it. Not to sound arrogant there at all I've just been doing this for a long long time, and so I just I feel like I, don't get much value out of it and so I yeah. Try to spend my time just making. These episodes because that's what makes people happy. It's it's it's a way that I can serve people around me that make my life possible I know that feeling where you're like. It would take me so much time to catch you up you know and I would love to. But it's it's Oh oh yeah. I I actually know where you're going with this like, Oh, it would and I don't WanNa condescend. So let's just not talk about us. There's ten years of reading that you'd have to do to get to this point and it's like. That shouldn't actually be like an arrogant statement. I don't think like if a person goes to the gym and works out for ten years and you ask them to be a personal trainer, you say that they're in better shape the new. Then, that's not really controversial statement and it's kind of self evident like people just look at them and they look at you like Oh yeah I mean obviously but because there's no six pack on your brain they you can see that there's no six pack on your forehead it's A. It's it's tough because it's almost like you're telling them that their thoughts are illegitimate because they haven't read these books that you have which sounds. So do she just in it so yeah. You see you've read so much historical philosophy either contemporary philosophers a fan of. Nick Bostrom. He's the person that wrote be. First paper on simulation theory. I'm a philosopher I'm a fan of. Peter Singer I'd say I like reading Noam Chomsky I don't really understand him yet. And a fun to read sometimes. But yeah I mean I. Usually read the philosophy that I'm doing on my show these days. So and then if I'm not doing that, it's kind of like, I, mean you go to work all the eating I mean if You do anything at work all day when you get home, you just Kinda WanNa unwind from that. So yeah don't really read much. Of the some philosophers who are very involved in the world, right? Like Peter Singer is very much about you know kickstarter the effective altruism movement, which you've talked about on this show of like taking his ethical you know is ethical arguments and like trying to actually change people's behavior using them rather than just arguing, oh, what good to do he's like what is good and hey now let's do it. Yeah exactly, and there's there's actual actionable steps you can take after reading his work would you can't say about most philosophers I mean if you read something that compels you by Montaigne he's so long dead there among teen society trying to enact his. Philosophy. It's just yeah it's. It's cool. I'm actually looking forward to doing. ARC ON. Contemporary. Philosophy. Later this year. So Oh, that's great. Yeah because it, it is odd that so much of our, we forget that philosophy is something that is actively being done. Right What So you've mentioned a couple times you know I, it's we're at a really troubled moment in. American history world history are there any philosophers who you've read that have helped you understanding what's going on now you didn't episode on Hannah Arendt, about a year maybe that felt extremely relevant to. Presentation me. Yeah. The banality of evil is definitely something that is super relevant right now, I'd say read cameras the plague it's about a city that has a pandemic and there's a lot of philosophical musings that I think have been helpful to me. As far as philosophers that have made, be think differently about what's going on Giorgio ben he's a French flaws for I believe he. wrote an essay or kind of an article where he brought up a really good point. where he talks about states of exception with is a term from Fuko where essentially as just saying moments within history where extra constitutional powers granted to the government and people don't live their lives in the normal way that they would things like natural disasters, things like world wars. And he talks about how I mean if we just look at it historically. So often when we have these states have exception we we've needed technological innovation to get out of it. We we've invented things to solve a new problem and what's crazy about that is that oftentimes these things carry themselves into the world after we returned to a state of normalcy. So I mean, he gives the example of a barbed wire after world war one nuclear power after World War. Two on these are things that were innovated to solve certain problems. Yeah and he he just asked the question of. Law What is going to endure after this particular state of exception, and that really worries me man something that I've been thinking about a lot lately what social innovations are inventions are going to continue to move on our people? What about people's mental health going to change in the way they interact with people it just seems scary that we might see each other more as carriers of disease in the future potential carriers of disease rather than his fellow human beings as there's so much more to human life he would say then. Just staying alive. Yeah But we're entering and we're in the middle of what like is going to be a multi year period of. Our society looking very different of it. I mean it feels like what you're talking about a state of exception where our lives have entered a different where we're leaving different way we're seeing the government, take on more responsibilities and do different things than we ever saw. maybe it'll do. So in a different way, if there's you know depending on the result of the election in November but yeah, I mean it has it has struck me that we might start conceiving of each other and our place in society very differently that like the notion of the notion of the crowd. It's like just like what what do we think of crowds? What do we think of large groups of people is a pretty foundational part of society right? How do we act within them and that's going to be radically different in a few years drastically different now and I think it'll be radically different for awhile. Ryan to reference something you said before I mean your job needs crowds in order to function properly it mean, Dave Chapelle and people are doing things with launch hair six feet apart and everything, and that's good for now. But when we return is good for now I don't think that's good enough for me personally. I was just missing something. I also don't know that it's that it's safe. I. Don't know that I believe that when I see personally comedy shows that are taking those sorts of steps I'm like. Not Safe enough you know. Sorry I wasn't making a moral judgment about we should be out in comedy clubs. That you're. I mean the I mean if the crowd will never return post pandemic what does that mean for stand up comedians are skype like? Yeah just. Miss something that was one a broader societal level if we're if we're no longer as comfortable, if society is twenty percent, even less less comfortable gathering. That changes society on such a profound level right like. If twenty percent of our work becomes like we're doing right now telecommuting, right? That changes the way we see each other in such a profound way that could be immensely damaging I. Mean I think about the difference between when people are in. Road rage versus people on the street. You know what? I mean like the difference one of the things I really liked about. Living in New York City. was you know when you're on the subway or walking down the street everybody knows everybody else's person you know what I mean you're like you've general awareness hey, everyone's got somewhere to go you. So people sort of act in this way where it's like I'm GonNa make sure that other people can buy. I'm not going to block the side for the most part you know like there's this there's this general sense and people don't do that in cars right coming to L. La that was a huge difference because suddenly you're not seeing people anymore you're seeing big objects and the person inside is anonymous is obscured and so now everything is an obstacle tio right and I've done that very alienating and very distressing and it made it a lot harder for me to feel you know community in the place that I live and I worry about that same effect more broadly societally. Yeah absolutely I mean, it certainly allows people to dehumanize. People more it actually reminds me of a point made by Robert and Zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance ray talks about how he went around and travelled on a motorcycle simply because when you're in a car, it's all. Sort of I mean in a way dehumanized and I mean not actually humanized but you're looking through a screen almost you're you're not feeling the wind you're not smelling the world you're not. Feeling the Like mean something important about it, and if more people stay inside and live there, I mean even twenty percent more like you said, if they just stay inside more because they fear crowds and fear other people more. I mean, what does that say about the way we might see the world through our windows it's. Scary to think about. But also interesting to think about it. I mean I like I'm not doom and gloom person, but it's it's crazy to think what might carry over from this time because certainly things are as. The philosopher would say. And what was that philosophers name again? Giorgio Agam Ben. George Giorgio. Autumn Ben yes A. G. A. M.. Look him up. Let me ask you this because because got talking you. Rekindle rekindles. My Love of philosophy inspires me to read more. You know. But I know that seems to be your purpose and I really thank you for doing it. But you know a lot of my experience reading philosophy was. Reading something and not understanding it right reading nature. For instance, I enjoyed reading Nietzsche I thought it was cool. I took a class It was a fun class, but you know reading thus big Zarathoustra myself right before I went to the out read it right before I went to the class and it'd be like this is poetry, right? I don't even understand the point that is being made here. Right. Then I would go to class and have it broken down from okay. See how this poetry you know relates to this or that idea. But you know very opaque to me and or for instance, reading contract which I had to read it another time Entirely different. I'm reading Kant almost felt like literally reading Algebra. But done with language you know just like sue density and such like here's what I mean by this term. Now, when you compare this term to this term and we bring this into that, you know it's extremely Like a dense formula, right? Absolutely. Yeah. How did you with? You know again I I had the benefit of teachers explain this to me. You're just reading the books right How do you push through those moments? What do you do when you encounter that level of resistance and how do you? Recommend other people deal with it. So. I think that school is a great way to learn philosophy but I think sometimes you can be relegated to a particular curriculum, which means you're relegated to a particular teacher or group of teachers and their interpretation of a work and the way that they teach that and I think that I actually benefited from not. From like wanting to learn about philosophy so much not going to school because it allowed me to assign my own reading lists it allowed me to reach out teachers in Europe or China or just like the people that were. Leading pillars in this area and I. Also say that I didn't start with source texts again. I. Started with secondary stuff and then eventually graduated source texts years later and if there's anyone I'm reading now, I, think the last person I had that experience with was deluged I, just reach out to somebody that knows their stuff and asked them. You just like looking for delays, experts on on Google and call them up. There's probably three experts but no, I actually have the benefit of. I mean people have. People have e mailed me over your stead are professors and I just sort of have like a rolodex of people that are specialists in different areas and add a few that were big specialists on post structuralist thinking, and so I just reached out to them and they got me on the right track. What were those first secondary works that you read that sort of help you made sense philosophy At the time I was reading. Books on Plato I don't remember the exact name I mean it was fifteen years ago I can get them for you and send them. That's fine that's fine but it was but it's like it's interpretive work work like your podcast itself, which is like saying, Hey, here's what this person meant by this, and here's what we can take away from it, and then eventually you graduate to the original work itself. Yeah their way better than I am but I I mean, that's exactly right. People that have spent because here's a thing like you can study a particular thinker for six months and feel like you have a solid grasp of them. But to be honest, you could study their people for every. One of these philosophers have dedicated their entire lives to understanding their work in particular and those are the people you WanNa go to because they're the people that have done the legwork for decades and really care about the stinker and doing justice to their work and. That's what I seek out. Are People that have dedicated their lives to it. one thing I'm really curious about is the. You know a lot of what we've talked about as the western Canon of philosophy, right both like analytic and continental all these different schools right? But do you ever find that limiting because like are do you ever delve into? Work that you would consider a philosophy, but which isn't normally taught in the academy. Does that make sense? Either I'm from different countries or from different. Cultures or different backgrounds deeming like African philosophy or eastern philosophy your. South American. I was thinking about nature right like like Nietzsche why was he considered why is he included in philosophy and not as a poet because half of his work is like almost literally poetry and how many thinkers are just you know who have ideas that have that much depth are not included in the Canon and how do we bring them in as my question? Right. So I'm sure there are many I'm. I mean, I think there's a lot of people that would rather be considered authors or social commentators. Philosopher doesn't really have the best connotation associated with sometimes. But in terms of nature you're absolutely right is common criticism that he wasn't a philosopher as much as a social commentator and. The people that say that are probably right. What he was trying to do is so much more. Is it. It's so much different in scope than many other philosophers I would entertain that that thought but. Nonetheless. He had ideas that influenced philosophers for hundreds of years to come well, not hundreds of years a hundred years or so. and. So. I think he needs to be included in a philosophy podcast drift lachey book. Just. But other works that influenced your thought philosophically that are not traditionally part of the Philosophical Canon. Off the, top of my head, I can't really think of any Dusky is really good I like him i. don't really read that much fiction honestly over the years I've more or A. Poetry I mean, a lot of music inspired me I take inspiration from a lot of stand up comedians I take inspiration from. People that do podcasts, but that's more creative stuff. That's not like ideas Yeah. But I'm totally open to it. I just have only been focusing on philosophy and I'm. Still Young minimum thirty one years old. So I got a lot of reading to do left. I mean to be honest A. LOT OF GROWING TO DO DAMN I love talking about It's really fascinating to hear your perspective because again you come at this from such different angle then most people doing philosophy, right? Most people you can talk to about philosophy on this level are either professors or Grad students or bachelor students who were annoying shits like. Eighteen where I read like a little bit of like the fucking assigned readings in my classes and thought I knew anything about anything wrote a senior project for half a year and thought I understood you know the mind body problem Do you feel you have any different perspective on the issues then folks that come at it from an academic setting. Probably, not I mean, they're specialists right I would be arrogant to say anything otherwise I think that I to be honest I just like to focus on me and my personal growth, and then how that can relate to the people out there that make my life possible how I can serve other people within the world and the people that listen to my show. I mean, I just want to give people something they can listen to and be happy or or like provoking in. Access into this I mean obscure realm of philosophy when it can it can it can be so strouss, it can be difficult to penetrate you know and so. That's what I try to focus on not. Correcting academic philosophers. Just let them be their their misery and. Sells Ann Tower Anyway, I couldn't get in there. I think we have similar missions focus because what I do is like you know I think of myself as the last step on the informational food chain, you know that there's people out there who have really interesting big ideas and I'm just getting them from other sources of media as well. I'm reading a summary of their work in a magazine or hearing them on a you know interviewed somewhere or reading their book and then saying, okay, let me bring this to people who wouldn't normally have access to it. Right like let's let me condense this down in the seven minutes that we put on basic cable. Eleven PM and you know. Someone more than basic cable. Basic cable literally what I've been on for the for the last couple of years I mean yeah. But I feel like, yeah, bringing. Bringing this way of thinking to people is is such an important An important thing. It's what I've built my life around. It sounds like that's what you've got your life around to. Yeah it's. It's the most gratifying existence I've carved out for myself. It's it feels so good to get those look. What are their job? Could I do work and do a good job and I'm going to get emails from people telling me that I've done a good job and that I've affected their life in a positive way I mean I'm spoilt I. If I worked in a cubicle, my manager will come once a month and say good job on those reports Steve and then. Tell me to do something else it just I feel so fortunate to be able to carve out an existence. Juice giving people something that they can turn on and feel excited about when they see the notification I mean I just think about all that stuff all the time I'm just grateful for it man yeah. Well, I really hope folks check out the podcast they haven't heard already philosophize this. It's it's really wonderful and Thank you for coming here and talk to me about it and for the work that you do, it's really awesome talking to you. Thank you for having me and thank you for the work. You do man it's. Way better than. I. Don't don't don't don't diminish yourself so much. I mean True everyone. Thanks for being here. All right. Well. Thank you again to Stephen West for coming on the show his podcast once again is philosophize this I. Really Hope you check it out. It is wonderful that is it for us? We factually, if you enjoyed the show, please please leave us a rating or review wherever you subscribe. I know every podcast host says that, but it actually does help us out if you're listening that podcast, APP, just go to review section gives us a five star or a forest or whatever star rating you'd think is. Is is right and leave us, little review too. If you'd like to offering suggestions for the show, you can send me an email by the way it factually at Adam conver- dot net and I wanna thank this week our producers Dana Wiggins, and Sam Rodman are engineers, Ryan Connor and Britain Moore's Andrew W K for our theme song. You can find Adam kind dot net or at Avocado wherever you get your social media and that is it for us this week. Factually, thanks so much for listening.

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Is Guaranteed Income Americas Next Top Model? with Mayor Michael Tubbs

Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness

1:11:53 hr | 9 months ago

Is Guaranteed Income Americas Next Top Model? with Mayor Michael Tubbs

"UNSPOILED is back for season two, Paul and amy tackle the one hundred, and now they're making their own list starting with back to school movies. Check out the first episode on mean girls, right. Now on Stitcher Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Jonathan Business. If you WANNA listen to getting curious without ads and get access to our exquisite bonus episodes, the only way to do that is by signing up for stitcher premium just go to stitcher premium dot com or the premium tap in the STITCHER APP and sign up with the Promo. Code JV. N. To try a free month of premium listening. You'll get ad free listening to getting curious and all stitcher ear wolf shows plus our exclusive bonus episodes and your premium subscription supports me and the show and helps us keep it going. So go sight Napalese that STITCHER PREMIUM DOT COM. Promo Code JV N. for a free month of premium listening on the house. Thanks. It won't take you long to figure out that I just think differently than other people. There Stephen Dubbed near it, and that's my FREAKONOMICS FRIEND CO author Steve Levin. I've worked for two decades studying strange phenomena, human behavior, weird circumstances, but is now ready to start his own podcast. It's called people I mostly admire listen on stitcher apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to getting curious. I'm Jonathan Ben and every week I sit down for a forty minute conversation with a brilliant experts learn all about something. That makes me curious. On today's episode Android by Stockton California Mayor Michael Tubs a leader in the Movement for guaranteed income and the subject of the new HBO. Documentary Stockton on my mind where I ask him, how do you mayor? Book, curious. On this week's episode, we have an incredible guest and I'm just so excited to welcome. You said, I want to build up too much welcome mayor Michael Tubs. How are you? I'm so good. Thanks for having me. So you just got to watch your documentary on Hbo I just have like children, my legs. And my forearms just thinking about about your story and just how much changes you're making as the mayor of Stockton California. So welcome. No pressure on. Though I mean we of time getting curious thinking about about down ballot races and about. How important those are to you know to community into. Our local lives in a way that is so much more. Meaningful than a lot of like national politics in ways that we don't often get to think about I'm in a lot of those policies, you are really on the cutting edge of what of them being guaranteed income what does it investing in a community look like? To you and that's that's really kind of where I wanted to start Thank you for questions when I think about every day in parliament someone who was born and raised in. Stockton. Always thought. I. Would leave the community never come back I'm. So I think that investing in the community I think part of it is is being very present and Spending the time to build relationships I think all the things we're doing stopping on the policy level on the programmatic level than improve the community level are important but it's all really rooted in investing the time of the Messi nece of relationships people I agree with on most things that people agree with very few things just take spinning the time to invest in. Building the trust, but also learning the lives of the people I represent. Bob Doing, more observing, listening than talking at the another way of investing in. The way I approach it is sort of using all the resources, all the like giving everything. So all the time energy flaws. Connections networks using all that in service of improving the. Community and then that translate into what? I how I tried to govern in terms of understanding that investigate community isn't investing in buildings are investing in infrastructure investing and. New Development but really investigation community means investing in the people and doing everything we can to invest directly in the people and that's why we started the basic income problem. That's while we have the scholarship program. That's why we're doing the works reduced gun violence because it comes from understanding government is nothing more than people. So the most important investment in the commute during the government has to be made in people, but in all people in particular, the people who have been divested for so many years. Yes. Okay. Let's talk about that I I very much. Such a chord with me of the like. I come from a town that I wanted to escape the end. You never go back to and I I feel that I think that so many people share that sentiment it's like gosh if we could get more people to like. Go because so many smaller cities all across the country, grow these incredible people like yourself and also not to get myself a compliment, but like myself and then so many of those places and then so many of those places are inhospitable not welcoming to people that have been passed over to vested in not welcomed, and so then we have these incredible like coastal cities and then a lot of cities in central. Smaller places whether it's central California or you know middle of America, a lot of these incredible innovative leaders that have been. Of the community they leave and they don't get to come back and that such a loss. So how can we make this a more enticing community to bring in young people and families and innovative leaders and know things like that? How did that happen for you grow up in Stockton and kind of what you see here about I think when people think of California's this like liberal bastion but actually like San Francisco La. San Diego. Yes. But then like central California's kind of its whole own thing. And how you kind of got involved in local politics. Winning to see the mayor or winning the office. The mayor wasn't your first win and correct me if I'm wrong. But you are the youngest mayor ever stockton. Right. I'm the youngest mayor of the city of one hundred thousand people ever. I was like six. I love title so much. I. Just had to take your your your dog who cause hearing about this. So cool. You're the youngest mayor of a city one, hundred, thousand people adver. When I was eight. City Council but you were elected to the city council at twenty two. Yes. So I started. So as you mentioned raised in Stockton but like so many young people in communities like Stockton I was I was told literally than to be successful had to leave I'm sorry oriented myself towards doing. So I, think partly is because I didn't grow up in the part of Stockton's where I have fundraisers that I grew up in. Stockton. Where a lot of the work is happening on the south part of the city. The other side of the tracks are mom has teenager by father's incarcerates poverty was real the issues we're talking about. What really real and it didn't give a lot of affection for the city actually kind of hated it. I hated the violence I had the lack of educational attainment and I just wanted to get out, and then my junior college I was interning for president. Obama's White House and my job was scored with mayors and councils. It was the first time I saw how at a local level that mayors and councils other that perfect can actually do things in effect change and see the change in real time, and that's what I finally be cool to support candidates in stockton because my mom and family was still there but then while they're. One of my cousins dot L. James the second end up being a victim of homicide at a house party. That is what kind of made me think about going back in poverty was survivor's guilt. Feeling is really guilty in that. I got into Stanford what the White House partly because I came from Stockton told the story about the challenges they tend. To. Lead to go from softened to those places and I was thinking what Stockton actually better for my personal success. On a spiritual person I thought well, maybe all the stuff is happening because God wants me to do something to to approve stopping. So that's decide to run for city council and I appreciate you saying that because it's not just you wake up and you become there that's a time in the trenches were no podcast with superstars and No limelight a really just behind closed doors and Mundi meetings, learning the community learning how to govern in that for years and see council was the only reason why was prepared to run for mayor ads when you six by agent agents leads to say to me that we always think of these like overnight successes are celebrities but no one ever sees the light fifteen or twenty years the took of work for you to get to this overnight you know sort of thing. So. I always a malware of. Kind of. The people have a lot of journey and getting where they. Got that. Story is just an incredible one. In the initiative you've taken I. Think I mean I could honestly spend like the rest of the podcast really talking about that but I. Also WanNa talk about just how much? How much what you're doing? On the cutting edge of the country and it's just so interesting how you are so well positioned to. To be the person talking about. So many of these issues like guaranteed income and also how the changes that mayors and city councils can usher in so quickly. So so of what's happened in some of the face of the protests that have happened in in talking about defining the police and we've seen city councils and these last few months, Rishi budgets and do things that are so local and so. With the Word Lake targeted like it's so like. Which I think is so great. So how does that I was when I was doing some of the research for this kind of writing like I've holding this up for listeners. So you know it's like I was kind of writing like a family tree of like how city government works and trying to figure out. What budgets look like and what kind of foods at the top of the Totem Pole. So I wrote like mayor then I wrote beneath that on one branch police chief and then on another branch city council. So is that accurate that like the is kind of at the top and then like the police chief is kind of operating right below that in the city council's kind of like the Congress? Yeah. Well in theory. Very but stockton like Sacramento or San Jose California is roll called the city manager that does the day to day. On work. So the mayor's in in a sense is Martha Cherry, the board it city. SEE managers mark the. CEO. But because. The police chief as usually there longer than the mayor in the managers report, but they have their own base of power because they more longevity because they're not they're not term limited. They police chief has now almost most for ten fifteen twenty years, and in this area council there part time but they vote their vote matters just as much as mine. So it's a really interesting mix of more sort of using the influence and more using the bully pulpit and happened to set priorities than actually having hard executive authority like America said, he is lucky in that sense because in La has executive authority but in most cities in California. Tower so diffused and that's why people are get frustrated because they come to the mayor's say do this today. And using my answer as if it's a good thing is not being done it's not because I don't want to. It's not because I don't agree with you is because there is a process, there's a system I don't have the authority. So I was just watching this other documentary on Netflix about ice immigration and it was basically kind of asserting that like the system is setup so big and so complex so that some of ice officers that are like doing detaining deporting, it's like they're able to say like absolve themselves of some of the evils of that system because they're like well, I'm just doing my job. You know I'm assistant in the systems are set up like that so that it is harder to defuse them and dismantle them so. How, what are you say to people that are so frustrated and and you are someone who has you mentioned earlier father incarcerated you had a cousin who is. The victim of a homicide. Also. Having grown up in issues of poverty of sure that you had interactions with law enforcement that made you like you said, like kind of hate this that and resented. So it's like. You understand that frustration but you also understand kind of how these systems work. So I wasn't trying to compare like government to ice but I guess I'm just saying like what do you say that people that are frustrated link Protests. Don't work and when you know people in our in. Aurora or still getting like protect peaceful protesters are getting like. Be. Where do you do the frustration? Is it just a matter of patients patients or no? I tell people all the time that anger is a if you're not angry seeing allowed the injustices, our society, your dehumanize I used to be really angry kids in cages be really angry people killed by police used to be really angry seeing homeless in poverty. That's like a baseline that's necessary but not sufficient in protests are important. We have to protest in Russian, create the space for the actual policy change the time I'll be completely honest with you. We may not agree on everything. I'll let you know this is where rather Suara CNN Done because I mean I ran for office because I was angry, my my cousin was murdered I sat there and said okay. What can I do with all these raids on filling? decided to challenge channel that ensued being part of the system in not part. Of System to continue the party system with orientated towards kinda making the changes it make it so that when folks are protesting their sewn on the inside that does not have to be protested against on the inside, who gets it so on the inside who needs kind of protests pushing to make the changes that we deserve it's tough because I mean these things are very it's exhausting in should should have been change yesterday. So saying wait towards tomorrow await for two I get why people are upset by. We also live in per listing democracy where there's a lot of people protesting, but it's also a lot of people who. With the way things are. In oftentimes, people were okay with actually vote more than the people who went sage, which makes the incentives different. Wait. Why say that again I need the Kenmore I if you look at the data in terms of who votes, who doesn't the people who are okay with the status quo k with the way things are. Developed they they. They vote disproportionately. They have a disproportionate said, who's elected in laws on the books and people who upset in protesting some vote don't vote in the numbers that as we said, if we're so upset in one see something change another votes that perfect it's not a panacea, but it's a powerful tool by not in my case that in times. PEOP- by my political consultants Tommy. Your do your is this an issue that voters care about? Will voters vulture as important of voters that speaking about film is because a lot of the issues around poverty around police reform some voters do care about it but a lot of folks are really deeply impacted. Don't vote as regular and because of that, they're not usually seen by other folks who job is dependent on getting the most votes. It asks what I'll try explaining people like look you may not like any of your choices, but you have to make a choice our own. The twice will be made for you in Gary. T your you'll hate that you've taken a lot of different approaches at in your role of mayor in Stockton. To kind of implement some changes that have gotten a lot of attention that are really cool and one of the things is the Garin this idea of guaranteed income and one thing that I didn't understand was the differences between guaranteed income and universal income because I think the first time I heard of universal income was from Andrew Yang and his presidential campaign never really heard of it before that and also like interviewing some district attorneys. On the show and then just like other research that I've done. So often what we see. In Card who the incarcerated are like people who are engaging in pry cries poverty like worth stealing food because we can't feed our children and when you look at some of the the racism and sexism that goes into some of the reasons why people are committing crimes of poverty it's like. That's why we need kind of define the police and that's why we need to kind of so. I understand that. But I think that so many people don't understand how those things are linked. and. So I'd love to hear about an implementing of these changes. One wasn't between guaranteed guaranteed in universal and how has stockton benefited so far from implementing these change as another great question. So universal is this idea that everyone gets the same amount of money regardless of knee. On from the arguments for that society of stigma the fact that these people need this these people don't, and also this idea that a universal basic income should be part of the national comments by this is something that we all get for being American if it helps some people more than other, that's fine. If you don't need it, you can donate. It's not one school of thought for another school dog is around a guaranteed income, which is really a targeted intervention around helping those that we know needed with the resources we have. So I'm example stock that we've given five hundred dollars a month to a hundred and twenty five families who looked like the city. But all living Zip code at are below the city's median meaning that there's probably no one in the program was in the top one percent of There are a lot of people who are making seventy K Eighty K sixty K. were often excluded from government programs who are benefiting and I think universal university is a great goal and I don't think that's a new of, but to your point particularly given the crisis now with Kovin what seems to be more politically. Feasible subjects guaranteed something. That's for folks who make a hundred, hundred, five km below in knowing that at least if we're not getting everyone while at least helping people who need it the most in that frame for me comes from studying Dr King and studying the Black Panther party who all who the number three on the Black Panther party platform is a job guaranteed or a guaranteed income on Dr. King talked about this and where whether we go from here nothing for me my. Willingness to prepare the basic income guaranteed income came from a hatred of poverty hatred scarcely for the points you mentioned this idea that. Most crimes are still some crimes are heinous in by folks with severe. Mental illnesses, things of that sort in that. That's different. But the vast majority of people in our prisons are in prison because they were poor 'cause environments were poor because their schools were poor because the job opportunities in communities were poor and they made poor choices a coronary. So. So what we've seen in Stockton is that for the under twenty five families, it's made a world of difference. It's been a difference between having dentures and not for some people during cove and it's been the difference between having having to go to the food bank or not. For one person she told me that because a five hundred dollars, she actually was able to stay home when she has symptoms on because she said, I have the five hundred dollars idol have paid time off I would have had to work even though I had a cough even though I had a fever because I mean. Whether I have covert, our are unknown but what is known as that? The bills are due a happy in the half to have lights and I think for the city it's been helpful just to see all of us reflected in policy. That's not about saying some people are good. Some people are bad barbaro saying the be the way the economy has been working has just been for working people and then. On the curb on on the Crime Front, we've taken the same frame with our vice reduction work. So we've seen a forty percent reduction violent crime. The last three years in Lavin has been through looking at kind of. Crime as public health issue in understanding that. The guys who are most likely to be victims and perpetrators of violent crime also don't have high school diplomas have jobs food insecure housing insecure. So when the programs were running is called advanced piece which fines and identifies guys are most likely to be victims and perpetrators and provide them cognitive behavioral therapy and case management in goal setting. But after six months provides them with what they fellowship with a stipend to continue making the good choices and I just seen. Came made honestly jobs as a skeptic of basic income guarantee makeup saying like they kept be that easy or people need to work. But what we found is that people are working working themselves to death work as essential workers in it's still not enough and we can afford to do a guaranteed income and I'll be quiet for this. Four, hundred guaranteed income. Because we spit, we spent two trillion dollars in two thousand, seventeen giving tax cuts to. People who don't need it and Kamala Harris has bill right now VP nominee as the bill right now that says you reverse those tax cuts and give every family making one hundred, twenty, five, thousand dollars or less five, hundred dollars a month like today like it's feasible it's possible it's an exponential our in our budget. So I'm sorry for log ramble but I really don't apologize for that. That is no, it's no. is so important. So that brought up a lot of things we had a guest on getting curious to talk about family separation at the border and how upsetting that was, and then basically she said. This country has been dealing with family separation since way before this administration and wasn't going on at the border and she was like it's mass incarceration and I was like, well, how do you mean and she was she gave me the statistics on black children in America the the chances that a black held has of of having one of their parents incarcerated before that child graduates high school and what those statistics are for white kids and it was. Wildly disproportionate and so when you think about, well, you just like when people think like, well, why do we need a scholar? A Stockton Scholars Program or why is it important that we? Employ people that were at one time incarcerated and the thing is is that. For people that were either incarcerated or children of of people who are incarcerated your chances of like. Goal setting training if you didn't have apparent around your chances of being taken under the wing of someone who is like doing something that was navy. Falling off the path to success very much go up when one of your parents is dealing with a previously incarcerated situation And so with that being said, it's like as mayor and s someone in a position of power and also I, think was so interesting when you said before that you were a skeptic of guaranteed income at one point. You, yourself experienced a an evolution injured knee there. So I'm curious about that and also how can we convince or show other people why this is so important? As the journey. I remember I'm studying interested in college my staff came up to me with it. I said well. You have I mean we all grew up in society that has all these tropes about certain people. Particular types of people in terms of people being lazy or not working harder than not be able to make decisions with their money accelere. Found dollars is even now has to be used. It's not be forever is going to be for eighteen months. Before we. Gave money we spent a year in design process a time listening to people. And became apparent after my first listening session. That I was dumb and that be like people are actually really really really smart in terms of making decisions for themselves and their families, and then I reflected on my mother and my grandmother who raised me in how? The issue with money in our family wasn't because they know how to manage money. Because they didn't have money to manage. So they had to go the check cashing places sometimes. So they had to use credit cards to pay for this and that. So they had to in crew all this debt not because they were recklessly buying yachts in private islands because there are trying to buy uniforms because they're trying to buy braces because they were trying to glasses and things that's and then I realized that that's actually not just unique to my family that all the founders I talk to. On there was a person, usually the mother who had great ideas for how could pay for this bill five Number One lady I'll never forget it. She said, five hundred dollars will help me in the summer. Now is not the winner. While would that help you? She said, well, mayor my kids come home from college in the summer. She says every year getting anxiety because my bills go out my food goes the my money doesn't and I don't want them not to come home. But after the pain keep catch up the rest of the year because of the time they spent on home in the summer and she said I find enough for me to relax. In, the summer was like, wow, and other people talk about the just the anxiety and stress that came from working incredibly hard bill, pay your bills and that really resonated with me as well as wild. This is about giving people the agency to be human to breathe and to actually have dignity by we talk about the dignity of work all the time, but they can't be attached to work. First, that'd be attached to a person who in our humanity if that was the case. Folks go to work and be treated with dignity. Wages. That pay and benefits your employees and paid time off and sick leave etc.. Hard to get people to buy in while we've launched recently, the group called the mayor's guaranteed income as a group of about twenty plus mirrors like L. A.'s Maher Atlanta's Mayor Oakland's mayor. Confidence Mayor. Pittsburgh's mayor. Mayor like all these Mirrors Melvin Carla Saint Paul across the country who are interested in trying to pilot like we've done in. Stockton. The concept to Kinda create more stories in create more opportunities for people to see that just like you would spend money well. Maybe once how you might. Pair of shoes or nice watching I. Don't think that's a sin either. By you should be able to enjoy life location is work only pay your rent and that's all you get to do. for. All committed to piloting something and I think the more stories we get from people whose experiences resonate with the vast majority of people in this country the more positive will see like Oh while folks actually need this writing accepting last lasting I'll say on this is that a lot of policymakers nestle are bad people all of them, but a lot of are so disconnected from the vast majority of people they don't have conversations with people who aren't of their social class who are. Wealthy who don't own homes so hit or So I have way more questions about guaranteed income and how you guys did that and more questions take a quick break. We'll be right back with more mayor. Michael Tubs after this. I need to tell you about this amazing quarterly subscription box called caused box. Every product and brand in caused box has a positive mission to give back and make the world better. So you can feel good about using them, 'cause launched their new thaw box and I, just got mine in the mail. 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So you don't have to worry about waiting for the transfer you can find though in the baking of hundreds of banks and credit cards nationwide chances are you already have it look result in your banking up just open up your banking up and look Brazelle. Getting curious so. You know when we think about. The economic disparities and the wealth gap between like that black families, white families, home ownership the. I mean I feel like I have a A. A pretty good grasp on some of those things I feel like I. Hope that most listeners do would understand what redlining is and would understand what? The cost opportunity cost of not being able to get into schools in. So many other things you know why that wealth gap is the case but I'm curious about in this in this case, this pilot program, where does the money come from? How do we decide who gets who gets what gets us at code? What happens if the if the constituent or the person didn't pay taxes? What is someone's living in poverty but like what if they like made five hundred dollars benmaller something they've been in and out of homeless shelter like what if like what if they don't know how to file to get onto the like how do you implementation? No. Thank you so. For all the listeners who would like to nerd out, you could have stopped the demonstration organiser eighteen pace discussion paper that was written by people waste Bar than me read peruse But. In Layman's terms essentially. We decided that we went to program to be as universal as possible while also making sure he reach the people who need it. So our research team Dr, Baker in West? They came up with this idea that win for US Census Tracts because we found that seventy five percent of everyone in the city of Stockton lives in the Zip code where the median income of Zip code are sensors. Track is Arab below the median so it'll be the only qualification you have to live in why the? Census. Tracts. That's at or below the medium, which is like seventy I, seventy, five percent of the city qualified, and then from there, they use some kind of algorithm that balanced sort of age race and employment says, etc. Looks like the diversity of the city of Stockton also diversity of experiences to those people who are working people who are capable made more than seventy k. not many by some and people who are making less than forty. And then in terms of the questions around, we spend a lot of time thinking about kind of benefits questions because I've been very clear from the beginning. I'm not in favor of any basic income guarantee income proposal that would get rid of the existing safety net. Everyone the same myself think that's equity So I said ours has to be additive. So basically that just means that like does that when you start to bring up the idea of guaranteed income like some of like Republican or Conservative people like we'll give you that but then that means like no more Medicare and no more like like eighth healthcare foundation or like government or like planned parenthood like we're gonNA take this money from current. Benefits. And that's why I said the. To be very clear in the trap with that umbrella be very clear. I don't want to gut the existing social safety net ice when add to it because we always add to things like we just added So we spend a Lotta time doing waivers and talking with the different we were able to get any kind of federal waivers, but in terms of the things are stay administered where so thankful for our partners at the county at the state for providing waivers for families who may make a little bit more than the cutoff things we also had. A couple of social workers new on boarding some before anyone sign on the program they set with a social worker. Who let that if they were on benefits because most people in the program on any benefits but some are. Some other benefits they had and really sort of May Short understood the trade offs in concessions and we got away for this for that you may not this and that. Walked in knowledgeable which was super important. What was interesting is often what we found is that some people actually opted out. On because I see you know what? This is too important for me but more people opted in said, yes, I may. Lose, my food stamps after this program but. I don't need food every month that the issues that that some of these benefits are so prescriptive when. People's needs are fluid. So the the knee may be food every month at some of the maybe an emergency that you need liquid cash, they do things I was. Learning inside for me and then the main distributed debit cards. Through the debit cards were able to kind of tracks or sort how how spending his but neither individual way like Saudi spend Armani on this but in the aggregate, our research team is now evaluation will come out next year desirable to make trends. Rosza. Very lucky that a woman Carol tolman. So the money excuse became from the economic. Security Prajit Co followed by Chris facebook Nali Fosters because you're during Warren who gave them a million dollars for disbursements and then we were able to get money from Robert Wood Johnson for research and then the permits experience ally. But a philanthropist Carol Tolan was so concerned about covert in its impacts on people you cannot. Stop the program in the middle of pandemic you have to at least extended January. So we're lucky enough to extend the program to January on the research will come out next year that will talk about her three research questions A. What impact does a guaranteed income have on feelings of health? Be What impact does it have? Of things of connection to community and then thirty, the one everyone cares about how somebody spent like how are people spending money? Spending choices. Okay. So here's the thing. I'm like very naturally and pretty much always have been like an extremely progressive person but I come from. Like a city that voted for trump like two to one. Quincy Illinois it's like a rural e-eh. So it's like I feel like you know. Both will my grandfather. He's like not alive anymore but he would just like watch Fox News like twelve hours a day and get super pissed off and I used to like go pick up my grandma every Friday like I, like I know what days and I still got Fox. News. Thing I'll read my phone just to know what the other side is saying and so I always. kind of like. Well, what's this like hardcore racist propaganda machine going to say about this and so many of those people I, feel kind of like the issue of like not being able to get things like this past. So when we think about the three research things that have come out, I think about like what does it do for crime reduction? What does it do for like? Like, does it do like Do People like like like. I would imagine that like a university or a guaranteed basic income like would reduce crime in would reduce like. Police dispatches in like all sorts of Shit. But like bull, the research cover that too. So unfortunately, because of kind of budget constraints in also because of sample size, we weren't able to answer. All the prices particularly that very, very, very good question and that's why I'm excited about the twenty other mayors for pilot because they'll be accident a different set of questions that kind of. Pain Mosaic I don't care what can do this can do this. Can you list? Could you this and what's fascinating about this idea is funny because there's a one point storytelling cohort, which is part of the research where we get the antidote from and the people as a staunch like trump supporter in Michael tubs hater. But I'm just like the worst person. Talks all the time about how she's No. She's doing things with the money, but she's serve everyone else in the program. She's one of the people receiving the money. Yes. Yes. She's like Oh. This is helping me this. I still support trump. Michael towns he saw a crazy liberal. and. I'm not sure the other people in the program know what they're doing with the money. But I think that's powerful because what we know is that economic insecurity is not a partisan issue. That you look at. But the poorest country cities in the poorest states in this country are all Republican states. and business power to. Help. Those folks tremendously. So that's why I think the storytelling is to be so important. Well. As Ashley Marine President says which I guess so smart she says, you know white supremacy needs its own young. So it's like you know lots of it's it's something that affects you know because really white supremacy is the one percent having one per cent, but they don't give a fuck if you're white or blast to get into this one percent, it's like it's all about like it's a money and power issue and I think that so many white folks here the words white supremacy in they're like while I'm not racist I don't have anything to do with that but really it's like it's kind of like the intersection of. Race and poverty has. More of a thing, it's like the white people are victims of white supremacy by people are victims of white supremacy like every like it's a whole fucking wheel fucking everybody up except for like really tiny little bit of like separate hardcore billionaires. Our appreciate that I think we do have to be intersectional and understand the way class in race in her second also. Race are at least how America used race was to perpetuate kind of a permanent servitude class fight black folks were made less than made less than human to perpetuate slavery, which was a racial caste arrangement for economic gain for wealthy landowners. Right. So I think to your point investment. So frustrating oftentimes in conversations with with with. Conversation in the Progressive Movement as you can't separate class from race, we could talk about them both and we can also understand that race and class are linked and races. You say and racism is also will. Right and I think our precision for off without cutting people think you have to choose one or the other if I know they both reinforce each other and they both are deeply intertwined feels like it takes more effort to try to isolate them into fight both eagles at the same time it. Also if if the report doesn't like, you can still run like because you had mentioned earlier that like violent crime rates have gone down in the last three years as you have implemented this this program. So there's ways that you know when we're looking at crime and probably Money spent on policing at the same time. There are still ways that we can probably do that in research that you know after the fact, which is really interesting. I think another thing that I would love to talk about is kind of what you've done with with really thinking about employing incarcerated formerly incarcerated individuals and and how important that is because I know in California you can be formally incarcerated, but still vote. But in places like Alabama, you know if you have a felony like you're not voting and I think that is such that is a really vicious un-american like. Like it's it's such a problem I. think the stigma around a formerly incarcerated individual is so high and stigmatization in any thing is so damaging. So. What are some of the benefits in the in the lessons learned about what about what that does for community safety? hard of it is that. As communities, we have to understand that everyone is our neighbor. fooding folks who may have criminal backgrounds in critic folks who may have committed harms and that we also have a conversation about accountability and people should be held accountable for their actions but we also have to be smarter in recognize that to the point even making this whole conversation about these choices don't happen in a vacuum they happen in an environment that it's credit the policy choices we collectively make in terms of what we invest versus not terms of wet communities have resources or not by it's no surprise to me that crime is harder as higher in communities with bad schools. In those jobs that I it's it's it's a logical phrase. The people committing those crimes did not create the communities that don't have jobs and don't have. Good School. So in Stockton, we've been having this conversation about sort of what does the how? Law Enforcement can't be our answer to poverty. It's a very insufficient lackluster answer to poverty that law enforcement can't be our answer to mental health issues that law enforcement in of itself. Can only be the answer to crime that's necessary but not sufficient in that the best way. To keep our community safe, it's to provide all those other inputs that work so far that has a strategy around reducing violent crime. So we spent hundreds of millions of dollars. The past thirty years are the resting people incarcerating people in over policing communities, and we just haven't hadn't seen the reduction that was worth the money we spent. So. Then two, thousand, fourteen, the council we started a program called ceasefire saw some success that became mayor we started advanced peace program and those two together which are. Pennies on the dollar in terms of what we spent this law enforcement in working in collaboration with the Intelligence Ireland for surprise to gather has shown a reduction thing for the community has been instructive that we can get to safety, but it means our our dollars in the ways that we know prevent things from happening. You don't call cop before a crime happens you call them after a crime happens. But we have no of spending strategy around the prevention side, which is all these other things. We've been trying to do that in stock that we've seen particularly with gun violence in homicides. That's perfect. But it's working that people respond positively to opportunity that some people actually do what you do better provide have the resources to do so. So as the mayor, what do you think about? The defined verse reform idea a policing. Thinks a false dichotomy? I think part of the issue is that? I would love to live in society. That doesn't need law enforcement that'd be a goal in that dream. We're just not there today. So what we build to that society where there's not people being victimized in our, I think part of the issue is that. Aside, all the time. But there are light dangerous people. There is a need to have a system of accountability a punishment for harm like we don't want to go victimize don't want children bright light. We don't want any of that. So we have enforcement, but at the same time that can't be the only thing we find. So I just approach to. Let's find all the inputs we think we need to be say. So what what we're doing right now stock as a concrete example is right now are relooking at our dispatch calls Let's look at our nine one one call and let me know what people are calling for. Partly issue as society or we see anything we think of cops when we see someone who's schizophrenic at a restaurant or some mental health breakdown on the freeway, we call the cops when there's a homeless person in our neighborhood, we call the cops when there's whenever there's anything we when there's A dog second who we call cops for everything and I think. West. We have that data to the helmets of our calls actually need armed police officer the go to me of are causing social worker need. Therapists mental health clinician. Then we have informed conversation what do we fund? So I don't think that it's a dichotomy between the fund the police reform police I think we just have to fund weather works could result we want, which is a safer community at the same time we do have conversation about just like. Police also have to be held accountable like it's just system where there's consequences in punishments for everyone else. But Law Force officer does a bad thing is really hard to fire them. It's really hard to prosecute them. It's very hard to hold the. That that, that absolutely a hundred percent has to change and the some of the things we're working on as while I was just appointed to the post. Commission for the State, which is the agency that comes out with the standards for for police officers. I think, I'm one of two non law enforcement. On that Commissioner fifteen and everyone else has either a retired sheriff retired police chief retired police officer. I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THOSE CONVERSATIONS CLUBS SHIRT I'll learn a lot. Of Their disagreements but I'm sure we'll walkaway. Again closer to where we want to be in terms of having. On a society where everyone is treated equally denies the law. So one thing that I feel like noticed or I noticed a lot and I need to work on his dislike. Samantha. Interact with people online or try to have like political conversations with people. It's like one someone shows me you know their ass. So to speak or like once they've really said something that does not align with what I feel or you know what I know to be true incorrect I had this knee-jerk reaction to kind of like block pull away knocking interactions that you don't deserve my time I get very inflamed and I just got to interview this incredible psychologist who's a survivor of the Holocaust and she was telling me in her work that love equals time ti like in order to you. Have to say, tell me more. You have to not have that knee-jerk reaction. It was reminding me a lot of what you said and coming back to your hometown of Stockton, becoming a mayor and really showing at the time the good the bad the Messi all of it so that you can really develop that deep connection and that love. But when you have those assure human you, you deal with those knee-jerk reactions there's like the lady who like, yeah you're still a liberal snowflake and I hate you but I will take the five hundred dollars like Mago trump. So it's like how do we lean into? How can we be better about listening to being relationship with folks that we may disagree with? How do we know when it's not worth our time and to pull away or is it always worth our time and we always lean in? What what about that? Yet I asked me that question it's such a good win so. For context in Stockton. Might City Council is for Republicans into Democrats into anything. Daddy. For votes. Which means ads make a conscious effort early on To make a decision, is it? More concerned about the work or my feelings because this work in politics is about coalition building. And I mean rather than organizing top lead now permanent friends no permanent enemies his permanent. Try and I'm not perfect some people I'm afraid I can't. But I do my best to try to build the coalition needed to get something done, which includes people may agree with on. No other issue but this one are not and I also think that particularly in our society in poverty is comes from faith. Traditions is just understanding that we're all infallible that we've all learned. We still leave room for gracing growth and what I found is that there's so many people in my community who are staunch supporters who are friends who have you looked on paper or look at some of their past cavs aceites imported you're saying away. And part of it is in relationship also founded relationship. You're able to help change minds in change hearts and change policy and I. Think like right after this, I'm doing a press conference with. A bank and also a family in our community crabby philanthropic. But the Republican family in the press conference is about black lives matter in create a June team fund to support black owned businesses in the city of Stockton. Only happened because I've created the space where we can have conversations where after the protests. They feel comfortable saying hey, like. We see what's going on a little bit scary. Can you help explain this Bob. Banks matter of course, black lives matter like help me understand and. I think I think pilots being open and that does fair that you have time not the energy be open to be a teacher and I think I reflect on how much I've grown as a person from people who are patient and didn't count for me I was stupid and young and. Regarding him what I was taught limited worldview. So to answer your question I think. This is what you have to make around whether this conversation whether this person actually wants to change US Open a change but the parks, this person that. pie views are so a relationship you wanna form there are is this relationship important for events goal? Is this part of the coalition into bill but no I, I knew I I can't block people on twitter anymore thanks to Donald Trump. something. New People, all the time because some people are just nasty some people box in some people aren't people but the trolls who are trying to distract and take your energy. So I think it's part of it is for now. Is this a person who? I liked or I could like or is there something about this person that could be helpful on? To me like I can't I can't I'm not I'm not. I can't save everyone. So I'm GonNa do it I can't in Renton you're probably looking for kind of how I think about it. Or you think a really quick break and we'll be right back with more after this. Getting curious this is John. was such a good answer. It is so hard to do that sometimes to kind of make those decisions like winter lean in and win to kind of pull yourself out. Of My favorite scriptures some plants while gives the increase meaning that you'll have to do everything that maybe. May. Jobs. The plan to see I don't have the time to wire seeds in nursery the and there was somebody else will come along for the conversation. So I would also tell people don't like you have to do everything that maybe your wedding gates, you question your Wednesday there was enough and I was up to spark a seed in someone else or some other experience while you're not responsible for reforming people. But you are, I, think he should love everyone and give everyone the benefit of a doubt but we can't give your energy to everything if that makes it. Absolutely. So one thing that the Abrahams said to me which I thought is I've thought about it so much because like I had said something on twitter. A few weeks ago about how I felt like Joe Biden. Marijuana policy doesn't go far enough because basically he says, he wants to I said that I would how much more excited people be for him if he would move to not only expunge stay convictions but also legalize it naturally because or nationally because leading states decriminalize is already what we do and that's one of its fourth. But that's his fourth point is like I wanNA, leave it up to states, and that's already thing that's possible and we've already seen when we leave things up to states it's like okay well, then if marijuana's decriminalized well having like a pipe and a lighter isn't so if you Have, the paraphernalia honey lake jail, and like places like Alabama in Texas and Florida and it's like no like I feel like it just needs to be legal federally because we can't leave it up to an already racist institution, which so many law enforcement agencies are to keep using marijuana is occurred to like throw folks in jail. So a lot of people were really mad with me for saying that and I did I was very clear that I support his candidacy and I support him for president but it and I want them to go farther because I, think especially, you know with marijuana reform that has Separated so many families cost us so much money so much disease and sadness and destruction for what for nothing, and so I feel very personally like riled up about marijuana reform and when Stacey said was you know so often people get mad about fighting over these crumbs and how we're going to fight over the crumbs instead of saying like, well, why don't we have the cake I think part of his understanding that Progress is not perfection. In that. Look at the baseline. Be Never be content to be happy when things are getting better. Canadian a better position to push for where you actually WANNA to go. And I learned that from governing there's been so many things. Are always should be here by. Mike. Well, Hey, were at be. Some, closer to the were with a and I know for some people, the pace seemed slow. But what's your alternative would be mad and nothing changes by and I think that's also a luxury to just be upset into tweet just be angry just council people. Got The role luxury because there's a lot of people whose very lives and livelihoods depend on decisions. In appreciate, nor we're trying to get to Northstar if things get a little bit get a little better i. think that's part is really understanding how this thing works that there's no magic want. That it's messy. It's a people thing. It's a coalition thing. In that, you have to keep the goal in mind. You always keep the goal in mind but understand that. We're talking about four a country that's been around for four hundred. Years. Not, GONNA. Change on for months that's contained in eight years. It's not GonNa Change Twelve years. But we could get closer to making changes. We deserve if he pushed every single day understand who do we fight and we fight and and where the fights because everything can be a war. In. The war, you don't win every battle in fact strategically sometimes, it's better to lose some battles. And there's all every story of war talks about how the eventual victor didn't go undefeated. They lost sometimes they retreated sometimes or they did some things that I don't want to do. Approach it the same way and just really understand that. The, things were fighting for our so important, which is really a country with dignity for all people. That we have to be in it for the long haul. And we have to understand which of our which. Every time I've politicians. Are you more likely to get what you what of Joe, Biden, Comma Harris Administration or Donald Trump the administration that's like a clam Doug Answer. So you go hard to November is support Biden Harris and then the data they're sworn in. Your protesting you're advocating you're you're making demands they're making demands harvesting works. So one thing I've heard us the you you mentioned earlier that you are a spiritual person and I've spent a lot of time recently thinking about this about like leaders in spirituality and the reason that I was thinking about it ever because of the way that we so clearly see people's religious beliefs. Seeping into the way that they legislate whether that's with abortion or gay rights or you know those are the two that kind of pop out the most. Last week one of. Forty. Five advisor said that the Lord made executive orders for when Congress? Can't legislate and that really sent chills down my spine because that feels. So handmaid's tale to me that we have. You know national advisors saying that the Lord made executive orders how do you extrapolate your faith? And what's in your heart from your legislative mines? Yeah. Well. I think. My faith is rooted in the ethos of love. Love. For All people concern for all people. Win The best for all people so even. As a Christian. When we think about kind of abortion for me, is this idea that God gives people free willing agency in God gives people autonomy in God gives people facilities to make decisions for themselves, and there's no government officials or government personnel interfere without right on because that's a God. Given right right and I think. All when I think of even kind of gay rights and gay marriages site there that God created people. In God is a god of love. In, Gaza on a God that wants the majority of homeless children to be gay because could gather homes I got actually hates that and God. Is on God people unable to see their spouses when they're dying because they happen to be gay he's adamant against God's people murdered because their tracks he he he's he's against he some people by wife. Caused God. Are Against that and so for me I, think I. I I don't try to legislate with my interpretations of case, by case precedes by do tried to legislate with understanding of. The. Ethos of guiding love and also this idea when Jesus said as you do to the least of these, you did to me right when I was hungry when I was in jail when I was naked and I think part of the perversion that's happening on the right is that they've really perverted faith. So now faith in public life faith in public discourse has become a dirty word it's become oh my gosh like you you believe in a fight no, that's not What they're practicing isn't faith it's it's white supremacy adultery in this using something as beautiful universalize religion and faith to to enact their all wants desires of God society in their image and I I would say, my faith tradition also teaches me that that's Lincoln and that's not what this is about. So not sure if I'm answering your question. No I, did it really did. You know, and I guess my thing is is someone who is like? I don't know where my faith is I don't know. I think I believe in a higher power like I like I'm really pretty sure but I feel like we are. Because I feel like then these these people in the rankings they will I'm using my faith in God to inform what I think the law my faith in God says that we should not have gay people because it's like. Well, we start using like our idea of God on the left Ver- like why is he even in this conversation like? I thought that we were supposed to do like church and a thing and I just wish that like we could fucking do that. But not you you're everything but I just feel like relief. And I I guess it's more than Parv is that as difficult as it's very hard to voice your experiences whether you talk about are not from the citizens you make I think. My experience as a poor black man in this country and as a Christian. Informs how I it but I think what you're hearing I agree with you your experience can't be the only think that your experience should be break not a moat experience to be a bridge to other experiences because I don't know what it's like to grow up as a queer kid now by a kid in the Midwest by do know what it's like to be black and I used as a branch to. Understand your experiences I won't. I will empathize about y'all like that. That's jacked up like how do we? How do we fix it? I think that's what's necessary is not leaving your identity divorcing yourself from who you are but understanding that your identity, your experiences have to be a bridge for you understand other people's identities and again. You're, not you're not absolute. Right okay. Yeah that's gorgeous. I like that. I love that. Okay. Last question. So you are is to kids who grew up thinking like I'm going to get out of this town some day. And then. You return your hometown your now like you know a massive part of the community and also someone who is on the cutting edge like I've already said of changed. Its own credible. What is your hope for other people? Other young people that are maybe you don't even see that as an opportunity like I could never go back to join I could never go back to stockton I can never go back to Tallahassee wherever little? Rock. What is your hope for those people to maybe open up the possibility in their future? Yeah I think my biggest hope is for people like you people like me people like everyone listening. See Yourselves as a leader Lai see yourself as having been worthy. Of being the position to do things and not because you're perfect now because you have all the answers. But because you're just as worthy as the people who are currently making the decisions, I remember outside to run for office part of it. was I realized that? Worst. Case scenario I'm ASS. SMART. As everybody else who's doing this like at worst case at the very worst I'm not going to be the worst person and enough for me to feel confident that what? Hey, if it's not going to get worse, let's do it and I hope for people to understand that. Change. As communal process that it's not going to be think safety Abram said the DNC that democracy we don't represent saviors. We represent representatives and each and every one of us have to do our part so I think. Folks are considered going back to the tells 'cause you will be surprised at how welcoming and how excited your town will be the have you. I've just seen the mouth of young people come back to. And how they've been embrace even though they may be a more progressive than maybe a little more liberal than folks are used to but they've been embraced as leaders in as important and that you're and I note the cavalry isn't coming. The cavalry is not coming that we are all we have. So if you really are concerned about your town, you have the time and energy consider moving back there. And doing the hard non-glamorous, not sexy work a building community on the blessing that. You won't reap all the benefits but the kids coming up after you will and they'll grow up in night the kids a Robin, stop the now grow up in Stockton perfect by a lot different than the stock I grew up in. I'm so excited and happy for them, and because we invest with them with a scholarship program or if they graduate when the two point Oh they're guarantee scholarship. So many of them are saying I wouldn't leave Stockton but come back in Florida they have a vested interest in so to answer question concisely. Towns need you. But if you go back to your town, your country needs you in every way else to do their part to to to to lead in a way that they can. Into reflective of the society we WANNA live in. Michael Times I to vote for you for something someday. So I hope it's like a governor of a state that I live in like president or something you're just incredible leader. I. Know You have a press conference to get off to. I am just grateful for your time in your work and I think we have like literally a minute left. So this is this is the point in the podcast where I call it like Yogi recess where it's like. If you like if we missed a certain like series that you really wanted to get to like but we didn't teach you know like pigeon today I want to open up my hips is there is there anything? Would you like whether it's as we head into this election? Is there what would you like to leave the listeners with I? I would like to leave the listeners with this idea that. The world we live in has been. It's manmade in women made and they made it's created. It's a world that's been created by the actions of people I'm good are bad. And with that comes in awesome responsibility to actually not give up our agency in this moment but the exercise agency. Even if we don't know what we're doing is going to work if we don't know if it's GonNa, turn out the way he wanted to turn out because what we do know is if we do nothing nothing changes if we were just angry. Just be angry for four more years in again voting is necessary but not sufficient. But the most important thing until the priorities as to make sure Joe Biden Comma Harris are President Vice. President. and. Even if you supported someone else in the primary, even if they're not were, you are on every issue. What we have right now says so. Antithetical to democracy not to progress politics spike humanity life I what it means to be human as fully humid. and we have to work work work in November to November, makes your job and then when that happens. WE DON'T GIVE UP We don't rest on our laurels. We don't become disillusioned when they don't do anything, he wants them to do. But we continue the fight we take a yoga break stretch Katina fight for things we care about right because that's how it works at. EMINEM perfect politician. There's Times where I'd like the sixers folks who loved me deeply deeply disagree with. And they have to push and prod But I don't know. I love my wife with agree on everything I. Don't know of any relationship or any interact with another human being where you agree a hundred percent of what they do and what they say all day every day. So that can be a disqualifier but hold onto our values. Let's fight like hell but we won't get. We won't. We will see no success in the next four years. If. Joe Joe by Harris, president There's no way we'll get anything done to actually helps people with Donald Trump and Mike. Pence. Administration. Which means we have to fight like our values like our way of life like our dreams for our country depend on it because they do. So in your work with other mayors that are doing that guaranteed income property projects because it's like California's GonNa go we know California's GonNa go for for Kamla and bite him. But in places like Florida Kentucky what's your sense of young people? Do you think that people are really? Think the people are. Got It together for understanding the importance of that presidential vote are fade in appreciate the way you use your platform in I. Think there's a lot of people do, but there's also like active measures going on right now to make sure folks don't vote. By actually like taking out postbox. Like purging voter rolls, which means that we have to go double time make share for the five counties. We know that's her way the presidential election that we are there on zoom. Talking and calling conversant with people about how not that their vote is important thing when we tell her that vote is important, that's kind of ID humanizing. It makes them transactional or makes them a means to an end? We don't care about you. We want your vote but no, it's like you're important. Your Life is important. Your experiences are important and because of that, your vote is a reflection of those things. Your vote is imported. I think that little change a messaging just how do we need your vote? We need your, we need you to vote in each vote. So after I vote what my disposable right Know. We need you. We need you. We need you to vote. I can't think of a better way to end it. That was that was gorge does really good. Thank you. Really was. lamictal tubs. Thank you so much for your time. I'm so appreciative of you and. We talk about you have an election coming up. You're like way ahead in the polls totally vinings like probably like a dumb Republican that everyone hates you're totally right. I don't know if he's done he's Republican and people people like them and I mean, my city is very diverse. So we're working hard to where we're going to work hard to November I'm hopeful will be victorious I feel like he will be I still. Didn't even ask you about it, but like you are in the polar invited. We're ahead. But for example, I wasn't endorsed by the Police Union partly because I'm a big proponent of BA forms and doing beggar so I'll be a race, but we'll see. That's the best way to ever. Thank you so much press coverage. Thank you so much mayor. I'm really appreciative. You've been listening to getting curious with me Jonathan. My guest this week was Stockton California mayor. Michael Tubs. He's the CO founder of mayors for guaranteed come and the subject of the new HBO Documentary Stockton on my mind. You'll find links to his work and the episode description of whatever you're listening to the show on. Our theme music is free by Quin. Thank you so much to her for letting US use it. If you enjoyed our show, introduced a friend and show them how to subscribe, follow us on Instagram and twitter accuse with GDN our socials are running curated by emily. Vostok getting curious is produced by me Eric Emily Bosick Rail is Chelsea Jacobson and Colin Anderson with associate production by Alex Murphy.

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Episode 183: Christine Quinn On Homelessness, Politics, & Her Future

Max & Murphy on Politics

43:24 min | 1 year ago

Episode 183: Christine Quinn On Homelessness, Politics, & Her Future

"In New York City is homeless policy on track. If not what will it take to get there and on today's show. We are very happy too soon. In just a few minutes be joined by Christine. Quinn who is the president and CEO of win which is one of the largest homeless shelter operators eaters and supportive housing unit operators in New York City Christine Quinn of course also former city council speaker former candidate for mayor Former other things says well in politics and policy and she will join us in a few minutes to talk about homelessness in the city the Work of Organization Win where homelessness policy needs is to go over the last couple of years of the de Blasio administration and Beyond and of course. We'll also get her take on one of the biggest New York political news stories of the last couple of weeks which which is also a national news story Mayor Michael Bloomberg who Quinn worked closely with opposed at times. Go along with the Times Throwing his hat. The ring is a very likely now candidate for president. So we'll get her take on that and some other things while mostly talking about homelessness with her. Let's bring Christine Quinn on and Former Speaker Quinn has been Max from Gotham gazette with jared Murphy from city limits. How are you guys? How are you good thanks? Yeah thanks for joining us so for for those who might be a little bit unfamiliar. We gave a little bit of an introduction at the top of the show but talk a little bit about win and what it does work. Thank you win Formerly known as women in need we are the largest provider of shelter and permanent supportive housing to homeless families with children in New York City. And as I'm sure all the listeners know we are at an all-time homelessness crisis largest numbers. Ever the shelter wood. Most New Yorkers don't now because it's a crime to have your child on the street so you don't see homeless families on the street The vast vast majority of the people in shelter our families with children seventy percent of the people in shelter tonight. Our families with children DOC. twenty-five percent of everyone in shelter tonight is six years of age or younger. Those little ones more little little ones that can fit in the seats of Madison Square Garden. So the face of homelessness right now in New York City is a single mom and a little Charles and win. We run shelters All across the city we have five thousand people night that twenty five to twenty seven hundred of whom Ooh our children under the age of eighteen. We have ten percent of all the homeless families and we also are the largest provider of supportive housing which is permanent permanent permanent but with services on site for homeless families across New York State and what we see in working with these families is the real life story of how people become homeless why they end up in the shelter system. Why after leaving shelter they come back and we honor the stories that that our clients share with us we also at win putting forth a very aggressive advocacy agenda? That's something we we have had been successful with but really want to have a very very aggressive agenda successful one this year speaking. We WanNa talk in a moment about Chris. Chris Chris Chris you can carry Mr Mr Murphy. Some form yes speaking. I talk about the drivers which I think you just alluded to and and the question of what is especially when it comes to families with children. What is driving people into the system and whether that is changing the comptroller Scott Got Stringer reported? A couple of weeks back that something I think others have identified to that. Domestic violence is becoming a more and more important driver into the system. Is That's you're you're seeing on the ground and what is driving that. Is that about more violence occurring people being aware of a resource. That's out there when it does occur. What do you think explains that that prevalent the report the controller put out his is incredibly important and really illuminating? That's IT I don't think there's some. Upward trend in domestic violence highlands occurring say over the past eighteen months. I've been at win as the CEO for four years and the whole time. I've been there. The top two drivers and they toggle back and forth worth is a vixen and domestic violence. I won't get too weedy. I have Disagreements with how this city gathered the question of. Why are you here at intake and I think the best violence might be higher than we think? It is set that aside. The main drivers have always been Addiction addiction or domestic. Lyle there is not more domestic violence now than there. There was before but but because of great efforts of society and the Police Department in Government and and ordered advocacy organizations. We are seeing Survivors come forward. I think we see not just in shelter but society. Are they tip of the iceberg. But it is a good thing that more people are coming forward to tell their story. Let's take the controller's report and it says which I agree with. Domestic violence is too big force for families into shelters now at win we have largest provider house ten percent of all the homeless families Finley Eighty percent of our mothers report domestic violence in their adult lifetime which really means a hundred but eighty percent. We we are not domestic violence designated shopped. Okay but we don't get any money from the city of New York. ORC special money to address the eighty percent of our moms who have or are experiencing domestic violence. Now if you I WANNA get people out of if you want shelter to be the most productive it can be to help people and you don't want people to come back to shelter right. That's it really be our goal and you know. Domestic violence is the driver into shelter. Why wouldn't you have those shelters prepared and ready to take hake on domestic violence to deal with the trauma of the at times immobilizing trauma of it with with the children so the children don't grow grow up and become batteries or survivors themselves? No one's looking in my opinion in this kind of continuum one of how we could address things because all the administration cares about is getting to the dads when there's a press release but we can discuss that we're not at the all all time high numbers and by the way the number is what is the more important number is how many people leave shelter and come back that definition of failing WANNA touch a southern you said because it goes to a debate that has defined the homeless policy policy arena in the city for many years just between the kind of Housing first model or primarily economic model of Understanding homelessness that this is is an economic issue. It's about primarily about people not being to afford a place to live but you need to do is find them a place to live versus the other extreme which is that people are homeless because as of economic problems but also social issues problems in their past trauma health mental illness and that merely giving them a place to live without treating those problems. As other issues is you're dooming yourself failure and there's been tension between those two. Were posed this. Do you see them as opposed. You think they both have a role in lower diagnosing because the last thing we have any time for right now as homelessness is an academic ivory tower debate all size nice about an argument of Iraq. Through different reasons people end up homeless. There's different needs that need to be addressed that one of the five thousand people the fifteen hundred or eighteen hundred families we have. It went not one of them has the same story for Psalms. Now the quicker we get an shelter and into an apartment. The better off are months away for being able to being able to handle that An author are you ready fairly quickly to stabilize and get into permanent housing but it would be super beneficial if we could have folks for say you know six months out of shelter up until eighteen twenty four months out of shelter visiting those people on a monthly basis. Just to check get into make sure everything's going okay but look housing first. That's right we need to get more housing. That's affordable no question. We need to build it and the Bayer need to immediately increase the amount of rental vouchers to those languages. Languishing shelter vouchers confined apartments. They can afford to the J. Yesterday. That needed to happen yesterday. We need to open. And Ron who had quality safe shelters with the appropriate services. We're not in a situation right now. Debate and the truth is all sides right. So let's just get work so so you've already identified a couple of things that seemed like your brain surgery. She's not cancer that we don't know if you're too. It's a challenge in New York City But New York Pity is better than that. We have not collectively on one million youtube but collectively go ahead take it on crises. He's never win a leader in all that will be so so you've identified. So let's let's try to take these off then so you've identified one thing is the city should be funding Counselors social workers others who are experts in working with domestic violence victims to go into into shelters that are not designated as domestic violence shelter. So that's one thing the amount so pervasive and I would take that idea or take that point joint on domestic violence one step further. The city should do deeper analysis or or just let give money to a group like win or someone else or Columbia University. Appear and what you were cuny to do it Do a deeper analysis of what drives people into shelters singles men single women families and then just just as the domestic violence example illustrate. We should target those the services that correspond to those drivers favor in all of the shelter. You know we seem to win and we do families not singles. I WANNA be clear about that but we all the society seem to wring our hands every time something happened to a single homeless person on the street or a mentally ill. Single homeless person does something illegal or truly unfortunate. Well we know. There's an amount of mental health challenges in the single shelters. Why haven't we expanded and come up with the services services to deal with that similar point to the one on I'm making on families and domestic so number two you've said set increase the the rental vouchers for people rehouse number three for family of so so doing just take back a second so there's Rental vouchers they're called the half's it stands for something. I don't know what we're GONNA call them. The city's rental vouchers and I applaud mayor de Blasio for having reinstated those. They were cut but I applaud him for that. So right now the voucher which the voucher pays seventy eight percent of your rent. You pay thirty percent so people do have skin in the game but it covers the rent it will cover for a family of four. Citywide is one thousand. Five hundred fifty one dollars. Everyone who's listening to listening to this show. Show is scratching their heads saying where can a family of four find a decent save apartment for that amount of money. We've done a study. Now we're in the borough of Manhattan in Hatton very few neighborhoods in any of the five boroughs. We have legislation in the city council. Thanks to Chairman Steve Levin that we'll raise amount significantly either tagging it to the section eight voucher amount of federal voucher or to the fair market rent. Can't we have people who are in shelters thousands of people waiting months and months working to try to find an apartment that'll take their they are voucher upping voucher amounts. We'll get people out of shelter. We'll get some better homes will keep them out of shelter and will cost four aura less than if we continue having to build and expand shelters and it could happen quickly because building the new affordable housing. which should happen? You know obviously takes time. And I'm grateful to to council member Steve Levin and his leadership and I believe we the council will was. It's great wisdom passed this this legislation In the next session into law urge the mayor to step forward and just do it more quickly could make it a you know a fundamental plank of his state Pity that would be great Interesting seed to plant their and we won't get into that also that also relates of course to Assembly member Andrew. Hennessy's bill well in Albany that would also kick the state More into the the rental voucher game and and well actually more about supporting people. So they don't their homes But you hit on similar but not the same right reverend credit people out but yet right what is out there and so I did want to hit on the other the third thing I was going to get to. And you've you've just mentioned it again. which is idea of opening more shelters right and this is obviously part part of the? The mayor's plan a couple years ago that he unveiled when he sort of Redid his his approach to homelessness which was to get out of two or to? The plan is to get out of the hotels in the cluster sites and open new shelters. Obviously the ninety number was put out there and they're they're a bit behind on that but that's also where you come in right and the expansion of the shelter system as you indicated is necessary. Ideally it'd be less necessary than it seems like it is Talk talk about opening new shelters and where that's at and where your organization comes in with working with the city to try to open. I assume you WANNA be in you know you. You want to be in charge of as many new shelters as possible. I want to be in charge of as many as is necessary and appropriate for us to be in charge of but we will open to who in the New Year and parks will go honest. We are bill in the ground building. I do want all under the mayor's plan and Coney island that just demolished Polish to building on a piece of property dilapidated building in Staten Island. Where we also will build a new shelter under the mayor's plan for a long time? You know the city wasn't building your shelters and and you can wish on a star for a lot of things but you can't wish away the crisis of poverty and homelessness in a city that has grown increasingly unaffordable every single day. There are homeless people. We know that and when they come to us for help which is required by law in New York to house the homeless us we have an obligation to provide them with a space. That's going to assist them. Help them help them. Break the cycle of homelessness. When you don't don't have shelters and remember this is a legal mandate then people get put into hotel? Think of you know the bad Ed Welfare hotels that we all had images of in the nineteen eighties. And you know Mickey Mouse is they exist in the city and they also would mean taking over floors of hotel. Rooms places like holiday inns which are obviously better but a wind shelter and remember these families domestic wind with a wind shelter twenty four hour security and CICI TV cameras everywhere except the private. These hotels have none of that. We have a a extensive social service. Venice social service maintenance security job training camp for the kids after school homework. Count Day care at all of our I Chelsea and so on the roll out of those shelters is your message to the mayor and therefore the city at large we need to accelerate the pace with which were making these. He's opening absolutely we need the city needs to. I applaud the turning tide initiative. They need to get better more streamlined. Nine were fishing at implementing. It could on this night when so cold and unexpectedly winter those people who have said if you open a shelter I will burn down those pro people who protest against inst- having a good roof over six year old child health titles had really think about why you hate homeless children. Why you hate homeless people while you're so vicious on night like tonight whether it's over sixty thousand people and shelter and our obligations nations win and good people obligations and the Mayor's obligation is to stare down those hateful people in the face and say we are moving forward? We're not afraid of you you. You are the minority. The majority of New Yorkers love and care about their neighbors even polling. It win to prove that. Do you think that there is. There's any is there any legitimacy at all to me you just mentioned the wind shelters have twenty four hour security cameras and and guests guests by by implication or or maybe not Some shelters don't have that in sometimes my point because shelters do the hotel so but is there anything legitimate in critique of the process community notification the role of community input. I mean when you were a council member I. I don't know that you supported needed every shelter proposed in in your district and is so. Is that a problem in the process. Is that about the politics like how do we get. How do we get past that? And is there anything to say like we can make missile system right. I oppose the two hundred unit shelter for single men. I would not if I was ever in the position I would not propose. Two hundred. Unit shelters for single individual families are now we do two hundred. It's not a problem. One one quarter process I would change is I would make single family shelter single shelter small but you know what you can have a good process conversation and move to perfection affection on process to you're blue in the face and there are good people out there who do want to talk about process and then there's other people who just want to delay the process and hope that the homeless people will go away because of their fear. We can't get confused in which is why there's a different critique out out there I want to ask you about it it's a more radical one and it's about the system we have now versus. I guess potential other approaches to to homelessness and it it you know soon as refers to sort of shelter industrial complex that obviously you have organization. Well okay so talk about that because obviously there I I mean I agree with you that it's not. It's not legit but but talk about that. I mean what would happen to these. Very well-equipped Smart Compassionate organizations decisions like win and others if if the shelter system were not as large as it is now. Maybe it's always going to be this large. But what what would that look like. And and how would that look like for you. First of all. I didn't mean to park. You viewers the independent budget office. Who is always held in high respect came out with his terrible report? We won't go into into it but they called us the shelter complex. There should be a thing shame to themselves. Okay now look I would love nothing more than to go into work tomorrow and could out of business on something I really would but we have sixty thousand people living in shelter. I think it's about twenty five hundred on the street. Eight and the number of people who are living on couches and floors etc.. You can cancel wallow Clinton's funding we can't you can make every private funder who funds us. Take our money away. People do that. They call companies that fund us to say de-fund descript. You can do all fat. Where will the homeless go? Where will the homeless go beyond humanity? We have a legal requirement to house all the whole where. Where will they go when I tell you know that the two hundred families living at one of our shelters you have to leave tomorrow? Where are they gotta go? This people work for organizations like win are not making a lot of money at could make a lot of money elsewhere. We're about let me connect these last couple of questions. Do you think it would be wise for you. Know when the mayor says something like we're GonNA GONNA open ninety new shelters. Let's just even cut that you know in third or a quarter. Do you think it would be wise to come out with something. That's a little bit more of a comprehensive plan in terms of citing and for the city to say. Here's here's twenty sites. So they're distribute you know they're distributed all over the five boroughs is an all New Yorkers are in in this together. We're welcoming our homeless neighbors. Who happened to be falling on these very hard times? Some for economic reasons some for domestic violence reasons some for other reasons. But but here's a much more sort of big vision picture of where we're going to we're going to do this. Do you think that would help or hurt. Well academically it would of course help in that type of conversation frat politically and practically it has positive and negative. It is practically logistically. It's incredibly difficult to find A sites for shelters. It's not easy so if we were to you know kind of not move forward 'til say we had forty five sites all ready to go at the same time I just logistically things that could probably take like making this up but like three years to pull something together like that so I always I like it. It's transparent is city one. Is You know people can't say it's only us. I just think logistically. I think it's it's hard infosys down so you're listening to Maxim Urfi. Wbai were on the line with Christine. Quinn the former city council speaker and currency Ao of win a major homeless services provider in the city. We've been talking about homeless policy but let's shift in a few minutes. We have left some some political themes if we could political topics and I'm curious obviously big news this week for the nation and especially the city where he used to be. Mayor is Mike Bloomberg jumping into the presidential race. You were in the counselor for the entirety of his Merrill T. You actually got there a couple of years before he was elected Circle Speaker for obviously a substantial substantial portion of his time in office. And you got a very good view of his leadership. You've talked in the past week about his leadership or maybe lack thereof homelessness homelessness. How do you assess in general his Merrill to over twelve years? Then you know what do you think. What are you gonNA be looking for him to say or or do As a presidential candidate the politics of the presidential campaign. I I don't understand the strategy. I just don't understand percent. How at this point in the race when the field is narrowing? It's it's a viable or appropriate point for anyone to Enter the race whether they consider themselves a moderate as I believe the mayor does or more you know radical or progressive. I just as there's like You know former campaign staffer. I don't see it and I don't get it as a Democratic leader big D. I also want the field down to be narrowing rowing to be coming together I don't want big changes or big explosions field. Because I want us to come together as quickly as we can because because we have a known target opponent that we have to really be able to respond to as aggressively so I you know I could be all wrong and he could could carry the day but this feels unfortunately tactically like a distraction. So that sounds a little bit like he's not on your shortlist for someone that you would support court in the. It's too late for anyone in this. For at this point in the process you know I have not endorsed a candidate but it anyone coming in now. I just too late regardless of who they are and Regardless of how great they may or may not have been anybody in particular. You've really liked. I taught you've heard so far lucky. To have as Democrats are really great great seals that's diverse and a lot of different ways. As I mean what do you think mayor pizza be mayor or not. What a fascinating guy? Brilliant his life story of veteran who came out as LGBT and guy re elected in a small town mayor you know. I think there's so much there that speaks to the future and to the breath adapt zapped. You know a a of The Democratic Party in New York just as as an example and to have a race where you have I it may not get the numbers exactly right but where you have. I think you re women running for President President. You Know Elizabeth Warren and Amy Global Shar Ah Harris all who are viable and have had really significant records in the Senate and in other places. 'cause a lot about our party. Yeah my infinite storm right right right right. Yeah it's a little further down the road but twenty twenty one obviously is is already actively being contested behind the scenes. When you look to that what do you think that race is going to be about in the city? We know what two thousand seventeen the team was about a referendum on to thirteen to some degree referendum on Mayor Bloomberg. What do you think the next one is going to be about well? I hope the next mayoral races racist. I would hope for all races about the challenges of the moment and the positives that go on in our city that needs to be cultivated. They then held up and move forward and the challenges like homelessness that are a a a negative in our city. And you know bringing bringing our city down and holding back Parts of our population and I hope the conversation around homelessness in the next mayor's race for example unites the reality that the affordability crisis and the homeless crisis in New York City are two sides of the exact same coin and we need to start thinking thinking about them in exactly that kind of a way. I hope it's about the big issues of the day. Anything else you would put on that list right now. In terms of the big challenges you think the city is facing and really needs to have a real robust public conversation around over the next few years. Well you know look and some have started this and I don't want him find that it hasn't gone and and certainly core Johnson. There's a lot of credit for this but we need to continue to have as a big bold and super specific conversation about mass transit transportation and car traffic on the streets. That's an issue that is not just a quality of life issue it's an economic development issued the job retention issue it's critical To enabling the city to work and move and grow and make sure everyone people can't afford to live as a center of Manhattan or heard of that growth and that opportunity speaking of Jobs in development element in such Ha. Ha How have you reacted to the sort of this general atmosphere that that You know I've started to hear a lot of people really concerned about as we head towards the next Mayo raised. There's a lot of concern around the city that there's kind of this really strong antidevelopment anti-business atmosphere has that concerned you. Well you know I I think people have and this is not unusual. You don't always raise concerns about things that are happening that are seen to. I changing the face of our city or their neighborhood. You know perhaps more specifically and I I I see that happening. Obviously with all the development. That's been going on that people whole wanting to understand what it's done what it will do so I'm not. I'm not surprised by that. You know I think the conversation about people being concerned under. I don't know if anti is exactly the right word business. That feels an overlap. You'll say that it's just a little strong to me. It reflects where our electorate it is at right now where it's been at for a while. The people are sick and tired of homeless people in low income people people who don't have the same educational accesses to others. There's not having the same opportunity. As other New Yorkers who end up being born in a different different zip code or with a roof over their heads or you know money their parents or the guardians pockets but I I think that's a understandable anger a great conversation to have so on a scale L. of one to ten. What would you say would depict the chances that you are a cat it in twenty twenty one or at some later date for public office you know that? Sounds like a bet and I'm going to a little bit. You know over review my age fifty three. The last time I bet on on a race it was the battle of the sexes with Ruffians. Dan For my bat girl. I learned that at six or seven or however old I was when that race occurred. You mentioned that right now feels late for Michael Bloomberg to get into the presidential race What what's the sort of timeline for someone anyone But especially someone with a deep background in city government and And a little bit of money in the Bank What's the timeline on on? You think. People getting into the the mayoral primary because that is going to be as as some might not even realize now in June of twenty one. What do you think that timeline time looks like? I can't like solidified in my head. That food you know is yeah. I don't I don't I honestly don't know the answer to that. Question is is obviously a question. I probably should know the one that I used to think about. Just pick them out of thin air and go ahead. Jared I ever go ahead I was. I'm going to ask if you whether you're a candidate for mayor in the next election. Which obviously there's a lot of speculation about? I've seen you ask multiple times again in here. You you seem obviously hasn't talk about that Quite yet but whether you're a candidate or not do you plan You know you're going to try to be involved in that cycle in terms of this e this sort of crisis that we have really with the gender imbalance and city government to you. Are you going to try to really make sure that we see a lot. More women men run for office and win offices in New York City. Well you know. I've never been at a a wallflower. And she could tell on this radio show. I kept interrupting and yelling at you. Guys which were really the Messenger so me being able to control my mouth not a right not a four. Pack I've tried to make it into a springs but not everyone so Whatever position I am in in twenty twenty one? I'm going to use that position. Whatever if gay be to advocate aggressively strongly and God willing effectively on the issues? I care about women's issues. LGBT issues the issues of homeless mothers and their children the individual the issues of homeless single man and single women. The issues of those who've been incarcerated for too who long or you know unfairly the issues of sustainability and an environmental issues and really make New York they the the urban leader later in the climate crisis whatever position. I'm in for whatever reason I'M GONNA make sure my mouth it's loud and strong in twenty twenty one on the issues. I care about from what you just mentioned something quickly. We'll get your take on then we'll get you out of here There's been a lot of conversation around policing policing in the subways and with relation to to homelessness and wondering obviously as you indicated most of the people that that applies to are not the the types of clients you would have it win where you're dealing with families and children. They're they're very often Single adults but go ahead. Yeah selling I true rose a single mom that could have been. You know her her income that she had to try to get out of shelter. You know we don't know so. So what's your as you see some of this unfolding. The governor's plan to add five hundred more MTA police officer the mayor announcing different You know initiatives related to helping people experiencing homelessness. Leave the subway system. What are you thinking? No one wants to live in the subway. No one wants to live or sleep in the subway and anybody who says they they they do. Just don't know what they're talking about or really kind of unkind. No one wants to live there. You know and people who don't have access to jobs in the traditional marketplace have to make a living and this woman for example that we're talking a lot about about sewing. Her Charles was making a live the best she could. And there's no evidence she was ever hurting anyone. There was no evidence she locked. egress out ah out of the subway. When there was an emergency there was no issue of any sect? Look we have to have a city that is orderly etc but we have to to have a city. That is kind. We can't lose our kindness what we did to that woman. Based on what I've read and I'm seeing nothing that that she was dealing drugs underneath the chirrup. Nothing like that. It's simply was unkind and I don't think that should happen. We need to every now Oregon cut people up so final question for me and I appreciate your taking so much time with us but you have as you mentioned. You've been a win now for four years. That's the longest I believe you. Have you have worked in a non-government job during your customers create. I'm curious given that any perspective that that's giving you on on government on what works about it. What doesn't something people outside government understand about that? They should something you've learned that you would take-back to a new posting government for having been outside at in this key policy issue but in a very different capacity for the past four years. Oh absolutely and let me tell you anybody. Whoever wants to be chief executive of a county a city or a state or country should should run a group like win because it changes your perspective? I now see really clearly how. We don't fund our service providers correctly. We don't listen to them when when they come forward with me and everything is is to driven by you. Know the office of Management and budget. And the you know number crunchers shirts that is not I by the issue of also seen how we not giving enough resources also booed and An enough for profits and service providers unnecessary reporting and and Things like that that we think and I look. I'm sure some of the ones that alive are a pain to be right now or once. I passed baby sponsored right. 'cause there is a hunger for information from the legislature and the executive and I appreciate cruciate that but they have to remember. There are people who are not getting paid. We don't get any resources four. We have to fundraise privately to do those things. Also I just am struck by the lack of partnership the adversarial posture government takes towards service providers. And how little in the process of things like budgeting and contracting is there a willingness or an openness to actually hear the voices of the client and I think you know being able to bring that experience which is why it's important that we have campaign finance reform in New York City so so people who are social workers and childcare workers etc can run is really important because it does change your perspective in a very very empower away well with the former commissioner last night on a bed he was saying exact. Same thing interesting interesting well that is really good fodder for another conversation and we'll We'll have you back to talk about that. And and more Christine Quinn. Thanks very much for taking a lot of time with us here today. Thank you and I promise. The next time on I'll interrupt last we. We like a good feisty conversation. So we're we're happy happy to have it and I think you apologize both times for as you said barking so forget we we. We appreciate it. Thank you can just bundle up and check on everybody of your parents. Your friends your neighbors people who aren't feeling well because it's really really cold. Indeed thank you take care okay so thoughts. That was a good long talk which we like to have a park. Guess Yeah Yeah I think You know on the homelessness issue what comes through is the sense that depaz Yo has has certainly made some moves on the vouchers. She talked about turns his tie plan opening some shelters but as on so many of the other issues that he has had trouble with is the the lack of a defined plan early enough as administration the lack of political ownership of it of staying on it of being in the forefront about it turning the tide is the current plan but it believed that was the the second or third approach to it and it just has been hard for him to really get the reins on this issue which is frankly an issue that no one is going to solve. If it's not going to go away in any permanent sense which is the sense that there is a working policy in place. I think we we still feel as though we're kind of grasping for it right and I think I think that is something I think about. All the all the time with a variety of policies from this mayor which is it's not always clear what the vision is is not always always clear how the pieces work together And I don't know if this is so much just about how he presents things whether he doesn't talk in specific enough language. He's not quite prepared. Pared enough sometimes or he doesn't sort of release a big plan and then really continue to follow it through with like press conference after press conference where he says okay. Here's the progress augurs were making on this. Now here's the progress. Here's how it fits with this other announcement we made. I mean he does some of that crime stats which is interesting. How just how monthly is to that having the same thing every month with the banner on the dice and and all the brass out there because he identified that early on his biggest potential vulnerability right that he'd be seen as presiding over a city that is becoming more dangerous and in fact the opposite has been true? If that's same approach could be applied to other things. I think it could have. It would have been great it because you would've been able to say like here's where the numbers I mean. Obviously the homeless numbers are not GonNa look as good as the crime numbers. But you have the sense that he was in charge fully vested in this policy he had and he just don't get that sense episodic approached in these big issues. Also if you do that you have a chance to use the bully pulpit better you have a chance to you know. Move things along quicker because you're really giving you know a sense to everybody in your administration and beyond that you are executing as the chief executive is supposed to do so we can come back to Mayor de Blasio at the time. We obviously talk about him. Plenty on the show I'll just say you know finally You know I thought Christine Quinn obviously is considering running for mayor in in the next election. Cycle You know she was pretty cagey. Obviously about that in Cagey even about Mike Michael Bloomberg entering the presidential race but it was pretty clear from what and she said that she doesn't really see a path for him and isn't really considering backing him. which is which is interesting? I think it is interesting. Yes her answer to the question about whether whether she's running out was not to answer. Which of course means she did not say no and of course that means we and our colleagues will ask that question thousand times again? But you've been listening to the maximum Murphy back back very happy to be back on. Wb I think so much for tuning in we're every Wednesday at five stay tuned to Wba all all evening for some great programming until next week. He's by Max on Jarrett Murphy. A Great Week and the greatest city in the world the WHO.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg Christine Quinn Manhattan jared Murphy mayor de Blasio Charles Chris Chris Chris Madison Square Garden chief executive Iraq president president and CEO CEO Steve Levin comptroller
416. How Do You Reopen a Country?

Freakonomics

54:19 min | 1 year ago

416. How Do You Reopen a Country?

"I am testify. Glendon. I'm hosting the new podcast pandemic economics from stitcher. And the Becker Friedman Institute for Economics the cove in nineteen pandemic is an unprecedented global crisis. We're here to help you navigate this moment. I'll be joined by my co host New York Times reporter. Eduardo Porter will be interviewing top scholars from the University of Chicago on a wide range of topics from global markets. To how this will change the nature of work new episodes every Thursday pandemic economics. Listen on stitcher. Either it's Stephen Dubner before today's episode a couple quick announcements number one a few months ago we tried something different a conversational question asking episode between me and Angela Duckworth the University of Pennsylvania psychologists who wrote the Book Grit. We thought it might make a good spin off podcast. You agreed and so we've done. Our new podcast is called no stupid questions. You can go ahead and subscribe now on Apple podcasts or spotify stitcher wherever you get your podcasts. We've already posted a preview and starting may eighteenth will be putting out a new episode every Sunday evening also announcement number two something that Cova nineteen pandemic has US wondering is. What's college going to look like this fall? Maybe you are wondering that too if you are a student or parent or College Faculty or staff member with a question or concern maybe an insight. We would like to hear from you for possible inclusion in an upcoming episode. Use The voice memo APP on your smartphone and email the file to radio at FREAKONOMICS DOT com. Please include your name and where you live. Thanks for that. And thanks also. Four subscribing to our new spin off podcasts. New STUPID QUESTIONS. Go do that now. We were waiting. Okay thanks here. We go Hello Steven can you hear me? Yes Hi Good Morning Stephen. Good morning how are you governor? Raimondo hanging in there. How's your life? These days generally pretty much gone. On Order Gina. Raimondo is the governor of Rhode Island which had its first Kobe nineteen diagnosis on March. First we were one of the first ten states in the US to have a positive case. And so we've been at this for Weil. More than seven thousand. People have since tested positive in Rhode Island and over two hundred died. I spoke with Ramona on April nineteenth Sunday morning so I think that we are probably a couple of weeks away from our peak. You're so climbing up. The curve like the rest of the US Rhode Island has been sheltering in place only essential businesses or open in the economy cratered. There's a lot of people now who maybe I'll put you in a lot of my friends in this category their lives have been inconvenienced. Surely but they're not devastated. They grab their computer in their phone. They work from home. They're still getting a paycheck. That isn't the majority of Rhode Island Right now. The majority of Rhode Island really is struggling with a population of just around. One Million Rhode Island has had one hundred seventy thousand people file for unemployment that puts it in the top ten nationally for the largest unemployed share of the civilian workforce. So I am obsessed with every minute of every day thanking. What's IT GONNA take to safely reopened the economy? How can I get the most people back to work? The Fastest as safely as possible Rhode Island's current stay at home order is to expire on. May eighth but new infection rates are still high does no good options. I'M CHOOSING BETWEEN BAD OPTION NUMBER ONE AND BAD option number two. And all of the work that we're doing is to make this a bit less bad for people you know. Minimize deaths minimize the virus minimize economic hardship. This dilemma is shared by governors across the country by elected officials around the world a few. Us states have begun at least partial reopenings others plan to reopen soon or some are likely to extend their shutdowns that will of course only deepen the economic cataclysm so there is a chance that restarting the economy whenever and however it happens will fail given inadequate testing and limited knowledge of the virus. Today what would it take for you to admit failure and return to lock down if that were the case? That is the worst possible outcome when we open. I'm going to have a set of metrics based on science and fact which will say if your infection rates starts to look like this. If you're hospitalizations are doubling this quickly. Then you have to hit the brakes again. The whole point of all of what we've gone through is that you won't again have to do a wholesale shutdown consider the nineteen eighteen influenza pandemic. It killed roughly five million worldwide. Around six hundred seventy five thousand in the US. Our population then was about one third. What it is today so the modern equivalent of around two million people the nineteen eighteen pandemic hit the US in three waves spring fall and winter. The first wave wasn't that terrible. The third was bad but it was the second that easily killed the most people. This fact if you are governor weighs heavily on your decision of when and how to reopen the economy there is risk. There's no risk free option here today on freakonomics radio. How can that risk be mitigated? We Discuss Kuban nineteen exit strategy with a former head of the Centers for disease. Control a pandemic forecaster hard-charging pharmacist. And of course a couple of communists who have economists type ideas so you could imagine we could put something like a billion dollars a week into this lottery from stitcher and doesn't productions this is freakonomics radio podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host. Stephen Dubner shoved covert nineteen so far killed more than fifty thousand people in the US. I asked Gina Raimondo. To describe what it was like when the disease first hit Rhode Island I cannot describe to you the chaos in the first few weeks of this. We were so poorly prepared for this crisis like the federal government was absolutely not ready. The federal stockpile wasn't where it should have been. They moved much too slowly to ramp up manufacturing of PP and testing so we were just scrambling for too long. And we're behind. You know we've been playing catch up from day one because we were one of the first states to have a case within a week. I band large gatherings as one of the first states to do that close schools. One of the first states to do that at the time. I got a lot of pushback. People said it's not necessary. Overreacting pushback internally externally from where constituents in Rhode Island. I remember the first call. I had to have with our bishop. Which is a difficult call and I asked him if he would please consider suspending Sunday mass and at the time and he was excellent and cooperative but reluctant at that time and of course eventually he did do what in hindsight was clearly the right thing everybody cooperated and as a result now wean you know it worked. We never had the extreme spikes. Our healthcare system has never been overwhelmed. Raimondo had to temporary hospitals built with a third on the way totaling. One thousand beds so far. They haven't been needed. I mean it's still all horrible. I like the amount of pain and suffering. Economic hardship is so extensive extreme. But you know two weeks ago when I was looking at our models we were looking at a need for six or seven thousand hospital beds. That was a scary place to be. Those models persuaded a bunch of governors to take extreme action. Do you have any reservations now about having followed those extreme models or you think it was ultimately the right move ultimately the right moves in late March when it was becoming clear. That New York was a hot spot. You were sending police officers and National Guard troops to intercept cars with New York license plates and tell people they had to self quarantine for two weeks sent police to the main airport in the train. Stations they went door to door in resort towns looking for New York plates. So tell us about that incident what you did right there. Maybe anything you did wrong. Yes so I do that again. On the basis of all the information we were receiving as I looked at other communities outside of Rhode Island the rate of infection was so much higher than what we were seeing and I had Rhode Islanders in coastal towns. Calling me saying hey governor when we go to stop and shop. It's all out of state cars help us. They were afraid at respond to that. Her response provoked a response from New York governor. Andrew Cuomo if they don't roll back that policy. I'm going to sue Rhode Island because that clearly is unconstitutional. In retrospect I should have not singled out one St. So if you recall I didn't executive order one day and then you later included the other states and then the next day I included every state. So were I to do it all over again. I would not done the New York. Executive order followed by. Everyone treated everybody. You know the same by the way in all of the you know hyperbolic headlines. We Know Rhode Island Governor. Police stay locked down. We never closed our borders right like we were welcoming to anyone who wanted to come here. You just had to provide us with information so we keep you safe and the people of Rhode Island say. Did you think about closing your borders? No no I didn't. Is it legal? It's a good question. It would depend. I'd say probably not. That would be a real interference with interstate commerce. You're being asked to come up with a strategy for restarting the economy. But without what I would think is the testing capabilities. That experts say are necessary without good information about. Even what behaviors will or won't spread the disease at this point. So do you feel I mean Badin worse is one way of describing it impossible because there's another way to describe it. Yeah so you're absolutely right by the way the key things are you have to rely on the data that you can get your hands on so in my discussions. The loudest voice in the room is my public health advisor. Oh let matters is that you try your best on a daily basis with the facts before you to make the best decision you can. And here's a hard part for politicians be willing to change so as facts change as our information about the virus changes. People like me have to be willing to say. I'm changing. I was wrong so I'm guessing. You're lockdown exit strategy has different phases of reopening most plans. What do you see as the easiest and hardest parts of society to reopen so it will be a phase plan and we all as a country? Have to get ready for social distancing for the next year now what that looks like in the beginning we'll be in crowds of fewer than five or ten people months from now to obviously bigger crowds. It could be fifty or one hundred but the days of handwashing mask. Wearing and social distancing are here to stay until we have a vaccine. I don't think people really get that so I say it often. You know the heartcall me school. That's a really tough call for me right now. What to do about school. I mean thank God kids. They're not particularly susceptible. That's a huge blessing of this weird virus right huge. That's huge but a lot of them live with grandma. Grandpa aunts and uncles custodians in schools. D- are often over fifty or sixty. Lots of teachers are over fifty or sixty. None of us has ever gone through this before you know. It's it's hard to call somebody and say how would you handle it because none of us has gone through it? When I first saw the number of patients being admitted to the hospital in Wuhan China I knew that this was going to be a bad outbreak. And that's someone who has been through a few pandemics. But I think the moment that I really grappled with the transmissibility was watching that cruise ship in Japan and seeing how that disease spread so quickly to involve so many passengers on that boat. That's Dr Julie. Gerber thing I was the director of the US Centers for Disease Control Prevention or CDC from two thousand and two two two thousand nine Gurgling is an infectious disease expert these days. She's the chief patient officer for the pharmaceutical firm Merck. And what did she think when she first saw how transmissible Kobe nineteen was? That was not SARS that I knew in two thousand three. I was SARS. That was much more transmissible at a community level. Gurgling has been through not only SARS but the h one n one outbreak in two thousand nine murders in two thousand twelve and her career began back in the midst of HIV AIDS pandemic management from the public health side. She says comes in three phases number one phase. One is really early detection. And in the case of this new corona virus we had fairly early translation of the fact that there was something new and dangerous going on in China and in Wuhan I would say they use some of the most draconian methods possible to contain the outbreak. Things that would probably be impossible in a number of other more westernized countries but nevertheless they made a heroic effort to really slow spread and try to minimize transmission beyond the original epicenter. But that plainly didn't happen once the contagion spreads to other parts of the world. You're in phase two. Which is the mitigation phase? You can't stop it but perhaps you can slow it down. So that's what has led to all the social distancing efforts but sometimes we forget there are two parts to mitigation. One part is really taking the social distancing measures and all that implies seriously but the other is making sure that we do it. Sustaining essential services. So how we think about balancing the need to protect people in slowdown. The impact on her health system and at the same time maintain our social services. That's a tough balance to get right that balances what we're all struggling with these days and what's next the final phases of course recovery. And unfortunately we're not quite there yet in most communities around the world so we are not really developing. I think the firm policies for how we will try to come out of this in part because we don't really know what's going to happen next. Is this going to resolve? As our social distancing measures really take hold or going to see a second way that could be as batter worse so back in the SARS one epidemic all the models suggested there would be a second wave for SARS that Chris Murray. I'm the director of the Institute for Health Metrics and evaluation. I H Emmy is a research group. At the University of Washington whose cove nineteen forecasting has driven much of the public policy response to date including White House policy and of course the vast majority of the world was susceptible. There wasn't a second way we don't really know why and it would be great if occurs now but hope is not a strategy and given what we've seen about how much more widely spread covert is than SARS one. We should expect that the risk of a second wave is great the vast majority of the US will be susceptible and that means that we need to be better prepared in terms of testing contact tracing isolation strategies. These are the measures. Most people agree are key to any sensible lockdown exit strategy testing contact tracing and isolation strategies but much easier said than done for one thing even though the death rate has slowed the disease is still very transmissible and somewhat mysterious. It is after all a novel Corona Virus. It's attacking the body in ways that the most expert doctors and scientists are still trying to figure out when phrase. You often hear when you speak with these people. It's the fog of war. They say for Jewish governing one close equivalent was the AIDS outbreak. In some sense might careers book ended by two pandemics when I was very junior clinician and HIV was first emerging in San Francisco. I had a whole roster. Full love very very sick patients. Mostly young men with what we now recognize as AIDS but at the time we did not have any idea what this disease was we just had very very sick and dying people and they had bizarre complicating infections and cancers and it was a nightmare and all we could really do for our patients was to just care about them. Tried to help them be comfortable and cope with their illness groupings. Own Research was focused on trying to understand how HIV could be acquired through blood exposure. Some AIDS patients were not receiving treatment because many doctors were fearful of contracting HIV back. Then we had no idea how big the risk was so I can only imagine what like to be on the front line of this corona virus and recognize the hazard that health workers are experiencing but also their frustration with by not having the protective equipment. They need to feel confident in their safety. Gerber Dean sees another parallel between cove in nineteen and AIDS. Both of these situations started in an environment of complacency when HIV emerged. It took us a long time to even recognize it was an infectious disease because we had kind of been lulled into the false sense of security that we had antibiotics and vaccines and we were really enjoying kind of the end of the Infectious Disease Threat. Ehre sobered US up very quickly. That no no no. We've had a number of scary. Things happened in the last several years with infections emerging from contact with animals including bats civil rights in the case of SARS in two thousand and three and so forth so when the corona virus emerged in China last year. I think a lot of people sort of thought. Well it's over there. It's not us we've seen this before. Yes we had a SARS outbreak in two thousand and three and it was frightening for a while for eight months or so and eight thousand people were infected in eight hundred of them died. Those aren't US numbers. Those are global numbers again. Roughly eight THOUSAND PEOPLE WORLDWIDE CONTRACTED SARS. An eight hundred died as of this recording. Roughly three million people are thought to have contracted cove nineteen with more than two hundred thousand dead. Different countries have responded differently. Sweden for instance has not shut things down. Even schools and restaurants remain open their goal is to achieve what's called herd immunity by letting the virus work its way through the population and on the other end of things. Singapore used what you might think says Orwellian surveillance to identify and isolate people who'd been exposed to the virus to Holler extremes of the equation. I don't think the juries in yet in terms of which ultimately proves to be the best overall approach each government kind of taken a look at its local situation in Korea for example given that the majority of the early cases were all linked to a particular religious group. The country could go in and really concentrate on finding the people who were members of that congregation in getting them evaluated tested isolated if they were positive or quarantined if they were exposed. If you want a success story right now. Chris Murray again from H. M. E. I think it's New Zealand. Which you know had community based transmission had a broad-based shutdown and as got transmission to near zero at this point in an ideal world. You would want to know where everyone is. At All Times Rhode Island Governor Gina Raimondo again however in the United States of America. We don't live and frankly I don't want to live in that kind of a state so we have to protect privacy and civil liberties and also in that context put in place the most rigorous contact tracing system. We can find contact tracing. Meaning you inform people who've interacted with someone who's tested positive so that they too can self quarantine. I asked her Mondo. What's the best middle ground or compromise? She's seen for contact tracing well. I can tell you what we're thinking about. You know a lot of consumer choice a lot of opting in not forcing people for some of the more invasive invasive options making it easy riding incentives and just making the case to people that if they do provide their information it will be secure. It's never GONNA get into the hands of a business. It will be destroyed. Appropriately but Rhode Island. Isn't there yet. They are not ready to lift the lockdown. Some states are Oklahoma Georgia and South. Carolina began the process last week and that should provide some useful epidemiological data. Meanwhile in states where political leaders aren't ready to reopen there have been protests? Now people are angry. Tired anxious sick of being cooped up and by the way they should be. How could you not be after being locked in your house for a month? But the test of leadership for people like me is whether we can lead people through that anxiety to a place of realizing that it's in their best interest to to follow the rules. So how do you do that if I let's say run the small restaurant and I've had zero dollars for the past five six seven weeks and I know that there's a federal plan that's not working very well? It's already tapped out. It was hard to get? Let's say I didn't get any of that. And I get you on the phone. I said Governor Raimondo. I understand I want to do my part. But you're killing me here. You're killing me. What do you say to me there? I know and I'm sorry. There's no other option. If I let you open right now. Nobody would show up anyway because they're afraid and it would just make the problem worse because if you open now everybody gets sick. We started flying back up. The curve will be in this mess longer so although it stinks hanging there with me for a couple more weeks. 'cause I WANNA get you back in business as fast as I possibly can. But unfortunately until there's a cure for this disease we gotta take it. Slow cure meaning therapeutic treatment. Which has remained elusive end or vaccine? Scientists around the world have more than seventy different vaccine candidates in progress with the handful already in clinical trials. Julie Gerbert again. This should be a virus for which we can create a vaccine. Merck has an animal health business and because corona viruses are common across many many animal species. We actually do have some vaccines that have to do with other corona viruses and other animal species so I feel very confident that we will end up with a vaccine. The question is how fast typically a new vaccine can take about ten years with vaccines you have to be concerned about. Two things. One is the length of protection if any and second the safety. Because if you're going to deliver a product to someone who's really healthy you want the absolutely sure that it is as safe as possible. So the testing for vaccines has to occur over a much longer. Arc of time long enough to tell whether or not protective immunity occurs and last long enough to be practical from a public health perspective and studies have to be long enough so that the full spectrum of safety concerns can be observed and addressed in the process of the clinical development but with a public health threat of this scope the norms may be adjusted to accelerate things. The trump administration said we can expect a vaccine in sixteen or eighteen months. How realistic is that? I'm optimistic. We'll have a current virus vaccine but I'm respectful of the time line and then the scale. It's not going to be helpful to have a vaccine to protect some people in one country or a few countries we're going to need the capability of producing the vaccine so that we have equitable access among all the people who need it and that is an order of magnitude that we have never achieved in the history of the world. No one knows how the search for a cope. Eighteen vaccine or treatment will play out. History does provide a lesson or two after four decades. There is still no HIV vaccine. But there are therapeutics that have rendered AIDS NO LONGER. Fatal Disease Polio. Meanwhile has a vaccine which is wonderful because scientists weren't able to come up with a viable treatment. How does this inform our thinking on Kobe? Nineteen in the absence of a vaccine for now or a therapeutic solution so far the main weapon is reducing the spread of the virus and that is hard to do without more testing testing. Is the key governor Raimondo again. You know in a magical world. Imagine if I had enough test where every day everyone before they walked into work could be tested and have a result within five or ten minutes. I mean in that world. We could reopen tomorrow now. Obviously that is not the world in which we live but my point is testing is really a key piece of the puzzle. We're doing more than two thousand tests a day. So more than two thousand per million puts us on the high end of testing. I think however I know we need to be doing multiples of that per day before we can start reopening the economy. So why isn't there more testing coming up after the break? We'll tell you why and also what to do about it and how to make sure everyone wants to get tested. Also our producing partners stitcher has a new podcast called pandemic economics test. Viglen and Edward Reporter Interview University of Chicago Economists about well about pandemic economics you can find it wherever you get freakonomics radio we will be right back recently. Called up Steve Levin My freakonomics friend and CO author. He's an economist at the University of Chicago which like all schools has moved to remote teaching so Levin House. You're sheltering in place going. Generally not too bad I mean. I'm lucky I didn't lose my job and I'm healthy people that much in the first so I don't mind being isolate itself. I know other people are really suffering. But I've been super lucky. So let me ask you this. How useful would you say that? Economists have been so far during this pandemic calmest didn't really have a very big role in the beginning in the middle in the sense that it was really more like a medical issue or a policy issue but I think on the exit from quarantine. Economists can be really important because the trade offs we're talking about here are the kind of trade offs that regular people. Don't think about very much like the trade off between life and death versus Economic activity and I think. There's also just a a lot of room for economists here to be kind of sensible guides as we think about what will work and what won't work. Levitt like everyone we've already heard from agrees at an exit from quarantine won't work without a lot more testing. I think there's been an enormous failure on the part of the government in not getting testing in place at any sensible plan we have now requires millions and millions of tests in a day far more than the capably we have and some plans suggest you know twenty million today the. Us is now performing around two hundred thousand tests today. The economy's losing sixteen to nineteen billion dollars a day half a trillion. Nearly a month. It would just seem like the right thing to do. Be to just dramatically scale up the investment and that is Zach Cooper a healthcare economist at Yale. He's part of a group of economists who routinely collaborate with policymakers. Yeah so this is reaching out to folks on the hill in the Senate and the House folks in the executive branch the White House at HHS. Cooper Lake Lebed was quickly convinced. That lack of testing was a huge problem. So I think right now in the fog of war where we just don't even know are widespread cove. It is across the population. If you've been keeping up with the news you've probably heard about several studies that do claim to measure the spread of Kuban nineteen. But most of these studies aren't very reliable. They don't measure a truly random sampling like the studies that use facebook to solicit people people who may already be feeling sick or the studies that test people who were shopping at a grocery store people who may be less isolated than the average person so I think the best studies we actually have or some of the studies that look at the prevalence of cove among pregnant moms. That is women in Hospitals New York in this case who were having babies. That's probably the most reliable estimates of the prevalence of cove in the population. Because there's a group of folks who are very very health conscious. Were probably going out whereas if you start testing shoppers that group just looks different than folks are sitting home and what was the cove incidence among these women. And you're seeing your that. Those numbers are sort of on the order. Fifteen percent New York keep in mind has been the Kobe. The epicentre does that mean. The numbers elsewhere are much lower. No one really knows yet. That's why a pair of Dartmouth researchers the mathematician Daniel Rock Mawr and the political scientists. Michael Heron have proposed a truly random testing of just ten thousand Americans that they claim would predict how many people are infected. Another way to know of course would be to have much higher testing capacity. How will this happen? Let's first talk about what Cova tests are and what they can do. There are two kinds of tests a molecular diagnostic test usually taken with a nasal swab. That looks for the virus itself and the blood test that looks for antibodies which signals that a person has already been fighting the corona virus. The idea the hope is that a positive antibody test means that you've got immunity. Germany for instance considering immunity certificates for people who test positive for antibodies but former CDC official Julie Gurgling says that science isn't clear yet first of all many of the tests that are now becoming available for antibody. Testing are not performing very well. And by that I mean they are giving false positives and false negatives. So it's hard to interpret unless you're test is one of those has been done by a laboratory in a major medical center that's undergone sophisticated approval testing or is come out of the FDA as an emergency use evaluation tests. Second problem is that we don't know what the antibody bristle means might have an antibody which means you've been exposed to the virus but it doesn't necessarily mean you're not going to get it again because we don't know if the antibodies are protective or not. I hope they will be usually after infectious diseases. You do see the. Antibodies confer some protection but not always. I think some people have the misunderstanding that if we could know someone has an antibody that would be a return to work ticket. That's just not really the case. And if you think about HIV for example everybody with HIV infection has antibodies but nobody is cured or protected because of those antibodies. So we have to know the answer to the meaning of the antibody test before we can really decide who should be tested and win. The FDA has granted emergency use authorization for more than sixty versions of the covert test from multiple manufacturers. Most of these tests are diagnostic. But a few are antibody tests the first such authorisation went to the CDC on February fourth. I think there was a recognition that initially there was a way too much regulation of testing and that regulation was really choking off production and they sort of loosened the reins quite a bit which allow log of manufacturers to get expedited review and approval of their testing. But as we've been hearing there's still not nearly enough testing available. Why not one reason is that the. Us medical supply chain much of which runs through. China has been significantly disrupted but cooper says that's only part of the answer so if they're to market failures the first is just the sheer scale of the externalities associated with testing mean that we are literally paying way too little protest. We perform. That is there should be stronger. Financial Incentives to produce test kits given how valuable testing is to society. The second is we're looking to scale up huge numbers of tests on a scale that we've never done before for a problem. That's going to dissipate pretty dramatically in eighteen to twenty four months. And you're asking all of these firms to put out more than they ever have and bear the cost of doing so without the ability to recoup those costs the way we normally think about costs being recouped over fairly long periods in other words. If this were your company would you invest a lot of money in ramping up to make millions of a product now for which there may not be much demand in a year or two if there's a covert nineteen vaccine won't be nearly as much need for a Kobe? Nineteen Diagnostic Test. So the solution to that is just paying them a ton to do that now and just how much is a ton? There's aren't that many production issues. That two hundred fifty billion dollars can't solve that is precisely ten times what Congress just directed toward corona virus testing in the latest relief package but as Cooper points out if the economy is losing between sixteen and nineteen billion dollars a day and if greater testing capacity could help restart the economy thirty days earlier. That's a savings. Roughly five hundred billion dollars which makes two hundred fifty billion dollars for testing look. Pretty Affordable Cooper has a plan to ramp up production. The first thing to do is get prices aligned. We basically need the federal government to set a payment rate for Cova tests that applies to all parties in the healthcare system. Right now he's got medicare paying a different rate from Medicaid which is paying a different rate from each private. Insurer that needs to change because it just drives contracting frictions as you likely know. Economists aren't typically in favor of fixing prices at least under normal market conditions but plainly. These aren't those so that's one solution a single price. The second is that payment rate really needs to be quite high sort of on proportion to the social value of testing. I think in many ways it would be almost impossible to understand on testing right now at the outset. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services CMS was paying between thirty and fifty dollars per cova test. It has since raised payments to one hundred dollars a test now. I actually think they should be paying dramatically. More I think if you're paying two hundred fifty dollars protests. That wouldn't be crazy. Frankly I think if you were paying a thousand dollars per test given the scale of harm or facing that itself wouldn't be crazy either. But price alone Cooper says won't increase the supply of test kits. There are going to be supply chain problems in the production of casts and in the material necessary to support testing. And so one of the things that we've called for is using the defense production act to guarantee the production of some of the inputs to testing like reagents and like swamps in case. You haven't been following the news lately and reading about the Defense Production Act so the Defense Production Act. Broadly allows the federal government to steer the behavior of private firms to produce necessary supplies. And then there's a mechanism for those firms to get reimbursed. So the sort of crude way to think about it as we say to. Gm LOOK GM. We are going to force you into the production of Cova testing swamps. The trump administration has already invoked the Defense Production Act to get several firms to make mechanical ventilators although as discussed in a recent episode ventilators. Haven't been in. A shortest supply is predicted nor do they help cove in nineteen patients as much as was anticipated but again in the fog of war. Decisions are made fast with much uncertainty. No guarantees the next logical step. According to that Cooper and everyone else we've been speaking with is to boost production of testing very substantially and very fast. So let's say that happens with say Congress gets a message that testing is vital enough to spend two hundred fifty billion dollars on and there are suddenly millions upon millions of diagnostic and antibody tests available. What happens next where when. And how does all this testing take place with? Many hospitals systems are under strain from Kobe. Nineteen policymakers are talking about building separate infrastructure to deliver testing but what if that infrastructure already existed ninety percent of Americans live within five miles of a pharmacy and in urban areas? It's less than one point. Eight miles of pharmacy. That Steve Chen. He's a practicing pharmacist. And also the Associate Dean for Clinical Affairs at the University of California School of Pharmacy. There are roughly sixty seven thousand pharmacies in the US compared to fifty five hundred hospitals. And how does the training of pharmacists compared to that of physician pharmacist? Study to get a four year doctorate degree. After completing undergraduate degree so years of training are really no different than physicians and other healthcare professionals that get a formal degree and then furthermore when pharmacy students are out in experience with training they're training side by side with physicians nurses other members a healthcare team. Pharmacists are always there behind the scenes. Or SOMETIMES UPFRONT. Managing Complex Dangerous Medications dosing medications making recommendations or treatment changes with antibiotics for infectious diseases. So you might think that pharmacists would be considered healthcare providers due to a quirk of history. However they are not it really starts back with the Social Security Act in the Social Security Act. Healthcare providers are defined. And there's a long list of who is a healthcare provider everyone of course from physicians all the downs nurses chiropractors nutritionists psychologists. Pharmacists are on that list. The Social Security Act was written in nineteen thirty five and back then. Pharmacies were a thriving businesses and they did very well with compounded medications and it was felt to be critical role. There wasn't any push at that time to be recognized as a healthcare provider. But today that's more of a problem for pharmacists fast forward to today now. Reimbursement from Medicare reimbursement from Medicaid from health plans. It's all tied to the WHO is a provider officially a provider in the Social Security Act. So states. Use that to say hey. We can't pay pharmacists because they're not officially healthcare providers Chen and other pharmacists. Researchers have done work showing that when pharmacists are actively involved in monitoring and adjusting medications. Patient outcomes are considerably improved but there's no mechanism that allows them to be compensated for such work. I asked Chen. What's keeping that from happening? So physicians don't necessarily want to see pharmacists carving into that limited source of funding for healthcare and being paid fee for service and this has left pharmacists as Steve. Chen describes it over trained and underutilized. Especially during a crisis like cove in nineteen again. There are more than ten times as many pharmacies in the US as there are hospitals with ninety percent of Americans living within five miles of pharmacy. So would it maybe? A good idea to authorize pharmacists to administer cove in nineteen tests that is what the US Department of Health and Human Services decided to do a couple of weeks ago. I was pleasantly surprised that it got done. Because we're often the forgotten stepchild. How many Kobe tests have been administered in California where you are by pharmacists? Now date zero absolutely none because anytime Idi authorization occurs that any government level there's a somewhat regulatory process right the has to be established. There's the authorisation and there is a translation of how it actually works when what can be done within each state and in California. That clarity was sought from the Department of Public Health. And the answer we got back. His pharmacists are not allowed to do Kobe testing in California. That's even though pharmacists. In California can test for diabetes and high cholesterol. These regulations differ widely from state to state some states for instance allow a pharmacist to adjust medication. Doses or even write prescriptions. Themselves other states. Don't even allow a pharmacist to take a patient's temperature in New York State Governor Andrew. Cuomo acted upon the HHS guidance and just authorized the states. Roughly five thousand pharmacies to conduct Kobe. Nineteen testing as supplies permit. Of course so pretend for a moment that I am governor. Newsom governor of California. Which has this ruling that forbids pharmacists from administering the coaches? And you've got an audience with me. I say Steve Chen. You're a notable figure in the field of pharmacy. Give me your best reasons why it should happen. And then tell me the biggest downside I would say that there needs to be an exception made because the number of tests for forty million Californians that you need to get done every day is not going to get done in the current available outlets that. You're thinking of were. There are hospitals or clinics or other similar locations pharmacists are healthcare. Professionals are trained. They've been able to do this type of testing and this is not going to be difficult. Rollout if you empower pharmacists to be involved well professor Chen. That sounds perfectly sensible but my department of Health would not have forbidden pharmacists from administering Kobe. Tests were not a really good reason. One of the reasons why my department of Health is justified in not having these tests will I would say that. Your Department of Health is reading the Law as it's written and that's the problem you've said yourself that we need to make adjustments be flexible and allow every healthcare professional practice. The top licensor beat this infection. And that's not happening. Pharmacist needs to be involved in containing the covered. Nineteen faction in communities by offering screening Advice Self Management Self Care Guidance Quarantine Directions and if needed referral into the healthcare system. Keeping patients from overwhelming emergency rooms in hospitals and pharmacists are not deployed in this widespread testing. That's required to lift. All these mitigation measures. We have out there. I don't think it's GonNa get done okay. So let's say that pharmacies across the country are enlisted to administer millions upon millions of Kobe tests in the coming months lake. Steve Chen would like to see. Let's also say that the federal government comes up with two hundred and fifty billion dollars to create millions upon millions of cova tests. Like that Cooper would like to see. Does that solve the testing problem? Does that clear the way for a smooth and safe exit from quarantine. Not necessarily you know. One of the pieces of exiting from the quarantine is that everybody agrees. We need to do. Enormous amounts of tests that again is Steve Levin. What I'm struck by is that no one is talking about the fact that even if we had those tests available the incentive problem actually getting people to take. Those is a very difficult one. Somehow people are going to have to be compelled to do those tests and I think in many cases you'll be tested every couple of weeks even though you have no symptoms. The chances that we're going to be able to get people voluntarily go down to their pharmacy or whatnot so I think we have a real incentive problem. What kind of incentive problem this is a classic case of what economists? Call a negative extra analogy. The cost of me going out on the street when I may symptomatic are all born by other people right I infect other people they get sick but if I don't have symptoms and symptoms the last thing I want to do is go get tested all the time. K which is a hassle. Maybe I have to go stand by people who are sick to get tested and then if I test positive then I'm quarantined. And maybe I lose my job if I'm quarantine. Maybe I can't afford you know have to pay the rent. Okay that does sound like a real incentive problem but luckily. That's the kind of problem that economists are really good at. I think there's an easy answer to the incentive problem that we can solve no difficulty at all. Okay if the answer so easy. Why don't you tell us what I think the answers? You got to make it worth people's while to take this test. It's what economists call internalizing the extra naughty so we're going to need a lot of Apparently healthy people people without symptoms to take this test so I think we should pay them a sensible way to do that. Might be in the form of of really big lottery so you might even call it like panda millions or something like that so you could imagine we could put something like five hundred million dollars a billion dollars a week into this lottery and in order to get a lottery ticket you'd have to go and get tested for cove and the social benefit would so swab the cost of doing this. I mean a billion dollars a week or something. It's peanuts compared to even the existing cares act in almost vanishingly small compared to the cost overall of this disease. What's the difference if you test positive or negative though? Do you get more chances at the lottery if you test positive because we want to incentivize people then to stay home for an additional two weeks or whatnot so I think if you test positive it may be good simpler because you're talking about a smaller group of people. I would simply just pay people to stay at home. I would pay a big enough number that even if you don't feel sick you'd Wanna stay home so if something like I dunno two thousand dollars per week and you get paid that as long as you're testing positive I would pay handsomely for people to stay at home. I mean I really think if the incentive plans that I'm pushing you put into place. Our problem will not be getting people to stay home or to take the test. Our problem will be that people are going to cheat like crazy to try to get certain results to get into the lottery and whatnot. So I'd much rather have the problem of people too eager to get tested and faking ovid. Then the problem we have which is a pandemic in which people are out and about doing things and We don't know how to stop it. How WOULD YOU RESPOND TO STEVE? Spend millions idea. Let us know at radio at FREAKONOMICS DOT com. And if you really like the idea let your governor now or someone else in position to make it happen. Also remember to subscribe to know. Stupid questions are new. Spinoff podcast with Angela Duckworth. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week until then take care of yourself and if you can someone else to freakonomics radio is produced by stitcher and productions. This episode was produced by Zach Lipinski with help from Hickey. Our staff also includes Alison. Craig Blow Greg. Rippin Daphne. Chen Kerry Huggins and Karen. Wallace or intern is Isabel. O'brien we had this week from James Foster. Our theme song is Mr Fortune by the hitchhiker's all the other music was composed by. We scare. You can get freakonomics radio in any podcast APP. If you want the entire back catalogue use STITCHER APP or go to freakonomics dot com where we also published show notes and complete transcripts stitcher.

US Rhode Island Governor Raimondo Rhode Island New York Zach Cooper Kobe Steve Chen federal government HIV infection Stephen Dubner US Department of Health and Hu University of Chicago Steve Levin Cova China Angela Duckworth
Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network: Freakonomics Radio (July 13, 2019)

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

59:15 min | 2 years ago

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network: Freakonomics Radio (July 13, 2019)

"Hi It's Jamie progressive's number one number two employee leave a message at the Hey Jamie. It's me Jamie this. Is Your daily Pep Talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your acapella group mad harmony but you will bounce back. I mean you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name your price tool. It should be you giving me the pep talk now. Get out there hit that high note and take mad harmony all the way to nationals this year sorry it was pitchy Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law get to old navy because this week only there's a new red hot deal every single day plus up to fifty percent off store-wide. That's up to fifty percent off your favorite old. Navy styles also get ten dollars off your next purchase. When you buy online pick up in in store so hurry in and get today's wow worthy fashion pieces at a price? You won't believe only old navy valid seven twelve to nineteen select styles only ten dollars off valid in store only one time use excludes clearance Gift Cards Register Lane Items Jewelry Stephen Dubner the episode you're about to hear features a relatively rare appearance by my freakonomics friend and CO author Steve Levin. If you want more Levin Mark Your Calendar on September number twenty six in Chicago he'll be joining me for freakonomics radio live event on the state of Counter Terrorism and international risk management for details. Go to freakonomics dot com slash live when you think about unintended consequences when you think about two stories that would seem to have nothing to do with each other. It's hard to beat the stories. We're telling today the first one if you follow the news even a little a bit should be familiar to you. It concerns one of the most contentious issues of the day developments in the escalating battle over abortion. The last clinic in Missouri on the verge of closing today and Obama goes back at least to nineteen seventy-three when the U._S. Supreme Court took up a case called Roe versus Wade Supreme Court today ruled that abortion is completely a private matter to be decided by mother and doctor in the first three months of pregnancy. The seven a few years before Roe v Wade abortion had been legalized in five states including New York and California Supreme Court made it legal in all fifty states but lately several states have been pushing back hard the Ohio governor signing today would critics condemn as the most restrictive abortion abortion law in the country. Nearly a dozen states are now imposing new restrictions this year including John Issue that appeared to be settled for and a half decades. Go is once again so raw that it's a prominent feature of the twenty twenty presidential campaign the candidate here who has passed a law protecting a woman's right a reproductive health and health insurance. I wanted to say their three women here that have fought pretty hard for women's right to choose meanwhile. If you go back thirty or thirty five five years there was a totally different story dominating media coverage and the political conversation let us roll up our sleeves to row back this awful todd of violence and reduce crime in our country. We must take back to the streets. If you weren't around then it's hard to remember just how bleak the outlook was crime had begun to rise in the nineteen sixties continued onto the seventies and eighties by nineteen ninety. It seemed that everyone was <unk>. Scared everywhere all the time robbery assault reader murder every play shoplifting vandalism and truancy crime became a top priority among Democrats it doesn't matter whether or not they were deprived as a youth and Republicans to there are no violent offenses that are juvenile. You rape somebody. You're an adult you shoot somebody. You'RE GONNA GO experts. Call them super predators. Everyone agreed that violent crime was out of hand that the criminals were getting younger and the problem is only going to get worse tidal wave of juvenile violent crime right over the horizon but the problem didn't get worse in the early nineteen nineties violent crime began to fall and then it fell and fell and fell more in many places today. Violent crime is at historic lows but it's used New York City as an example in one thousand nine hundred ninety. There are more than twenty two hundred homicides the last couple of years fewer than three hundred a year but it wasn't just New York with a few exceptions crime across the U._S. has plunged why what led to this unprecedented and wildly unexpected turnaround everyone had had their theory better policing the reintroduction of capital punishment stronger economy the demise of the crack epidemic meanwhile a pair of academic researchers came up with another theory. It was surprising it was jarring but it seemed to hold great explanatory power. He said well. I think maybe legalized abortion might have reduced crime. If you've ever read freakonomics the namesake book of the show you may recall this controversial reversal link between legalized abortion and the fall of crime today on economics radio the story behind the research and evidence for the theory the challenges to its legitimacy and the results of a new follow up analysis it it was completely obvious to us that a sensible thing to do twenty years later would be to look and see how the predictions had turned up. How did they turn out? What does this mean for abortion policy? What's it mean for crime policy <music>? We'll get to all that right after this from stitcher and productions. This is freakonomics radio the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host Stephen Duffner from nineteen ninety one to two thousand one violent crime in the U._S.. Fell more than thirty percent a decline not seen since the end of prohibition. I was spending most of my waking waking hours trying to figure out the puzzle but why was it the crime after rising for thirty years from nineteen sixty nine hundred ninety hits suddenly reversed it Steve Levitt my freakonomics friend and CO author. He is an economist at the University of Chicago. He's always had an intense interest in crime I had looked into all of the usual suspects pleasing and imprisonment the crack epidemic but really you could not and you cannot effectively explain the patterns of crime looking at the kinds of components that people typically talk about when they try to understand why crime goes up and down Levitt eventually wrote a paper called understanding why crime fell in the nineteen ninety these four factors that explain the decline and six that do not the six factors that according to his analysis did not contribute to the crime drop a strengthening economy the aging of the population innovative policing strategies gun control laws ause right to carry laws and the increased use of capital punishment will each of these in theory might seem to have some explanatory power Levitt found. They didn't the relationship between violent crime and the greater economy for instance instance is very weak capital punishment. He found at least as currently practiced in the U._S.. Simply didn't act as a deterrent against future crimes then there were the factors he found did contribute the increase in the number of police an increase in the number of criminals imprisoned and the decline of the crack cocaine trade which had been unusually violent but these three factors could explain only a portion of the massive drop in crime. Perhaps only half it was as if there was some mysterious force that all the politicians and criminologists journalists weren't thinking about at all. I had the idea that maybe legalized abortion. The nineteen seventies might possibly have affected acted crime in the nineteen nineties one day paging through the statistical abstract of the United States which is a kind of thing that economists like Levin do for fun. He saw a number that shocked him at the peak of U._S.. Abortion there there were one point five million abortions every year that was compared to roughly four million live births the sheer magnitude of abortion surprised Levitt and he wondered what sort of secondary effects it might have he wondered for for instance if it might somehow be connected to the huge drop in crime and I actually gotten obsessed with the idea and had spent maybe three weeks working around the clock and I had decided that the idea wasn't very good one that it didn't make sense and I had a huge pile of papers that I had put away and moved onto another project Levitt. Mike a lot of researchers was juggling a lot of projects with a lot of collaborators. One of his collaborators was named John Donahue Yeah and I'm I'm a professor of law at Stanford Law School Donahue also had a p._H._d.. In economics so he in Lebanon spoke the same language Donohue was particularly interested in criminal justice issues gun policy sentencing guidelines. Sidelines things like that for instance he found that minorities who kill whites received disproportionately harsher sentences in Connecticut this research ultimately led to changes in that state yet clearly played a role in the initial legislative. I just slated decision to curtail the death penalty in Connecticut as well as in the final Connecticut Supreme Court decision abolishing the death penalty donahue had been doing a lot of thinking about the rise in crime starting in the nineteen eighteen sixties. He thought the drug trade was one big factor Yup. It does seem that large illegal markets are important contributing factors to crime it was also a time <music>. I'm of great flux around the Vietnam War and and of course the the Vietnam War had multiple influences that contributed to social unrest and at the same time there was pressure going in the opposite opposite direction to try to reduce the harshness of punishment and perhaps <hes> pull back a little bit on elements of policing and so the combination of those factors. I think exacerbated the Crime Marie so one day John Donahue and Steve Levitt were sitting in Levitz office and I remember it like yesterday. John says the craziest idea I mean it's like totally absurd and I said Oh what is it and he said well. I think maybe legalized abortion and might have reduced crime in the nineteen nineties and I said that's so funny and I reached into my filing cabinet pulled up this huge thing and I slammed it down on the desk. Yeah that's right <hes> when I talked to Steve about it as is often the case since he is such a creative mind he said Oh yeah you know I I wondered about that. I said I had that same idea but it's not right and he said well what do you mean and I walked him through my logic and I hadn't thought deeply enough about it and I had been focusing on the fact that when abortion became legal there was a reduction in the number of children born and John said yeah but what about on what this what do you mean on what what did Donahue mean by unwanted nece he was referring during to the expansive Social Sciences literature which showed that children born to parents who didn't truly want that child or weren't ready for that child. Those children were more likely to have worse outcomes as they grew up health and education outcomes but also these so-called unwanted kids would ultimately be more likely to engage in criminal behaviors donahue had begun to put the puzzle together when he attended a conference and I heard a paper being presented at the American Bar Foundation by Rebecca Blank who's a distinguished <hes> economist today blank is Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin Madison. She declined our request for an interview and she was talking about who gets abortion in the United States that is after Roe v Wade. What were the characteristics of the women most likely to get an abortion and she was highlighting that it was poor young unmarried inner city a minority women and as I was looking at the <hes> elements of crime in the U._S.? There was quite an overlap between the populations that were involved in this increase recent crime with the group that she was <hes> identifying as a group of women who are most likely to be experiencing higher rates of abortion and so that got me thinking about could abortion <hes> actually <hes> influence crime rates did that initial thought even make you a little uncomfortable because it's pretty obvious to just about anyone. That's sort of a third rail idea. Yes I knew that this this would be very <hes> you know electric to some individuals but for me I was really interested in studying the impact <hes> on crime that we were observing at that particular moment and so it didn't inhibit me at all because I thought there is an issue here and it's sort of useful to be able to figure out what the truth is. How did the population of women in who are having abortions change from before Roe v Wade or really from before abortion was legalized state by state to afterwards yeah? That's a great question and of course there's much that we don't know about what was happening before because of the illegal nature of abortion in most states but we can sort of infer from the changes that did occur in the fact that you know some states legalized in nineteen seventy and and became avenues for travel to have abortions done we can sort of piece together who was travelling to have abortions and and see how things changed when then abortion became legal everywhere and so one thing that we did see see is that affluent women did travel to have abortions in the period between nineteen seventy when New York legalized and nineteen seventy-three when Roe versus Wade was decided and but it involved travel and expense and therefore was too much of an impediment for the the Group of women that we are most interested in which are the ones who are are usually at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale and did not have the opportunity and resources that would permit them to travel so then John and I spent a little bit of time making back of the envelope calculations of how important this unwanted nece effect could be and it was really shocking. Remember the magnitude of abortion was huge at its peak. There were three hundred and forty five abortions for every one thousand live births and so when you took the magnitude and you interacted with this very powerful on whatness effect that's been documented elsewhere. It actually suggests to us that abortion could be really really important for reducing crime fifteen or twenty years later. The mechanism was pretty simple. Unwanted children were more likely than average to engage in crime as they got older but an unwanted child who was never born would never have the opportunity to enter his criminal prime fifteen or twenty years later donahue and Lebed created a tidy syllogism syllogism unwanted nece leads to high crime legalized abortion lead to less unwanted nece therefore abortion lead to lower crime but syllogisms are easy. What about evidence so it's not that that easy to convince people that there's a causal impact of legalized abortion on crime because this is certainly not a setting which I'm ever going to be allowed to say run a randomized experiment in which I decide who does or doesn't get abortions and so instead what we have to do by necessity is to look at a collage of evidence so a bunch of different all quite imperfect sources of variation that allow us to get some sense of whether there might be some causality between gene legalized abortion and crime so Levitt and Donahue's set out to assemble this collage of evidence the first one we look at relates to the fact that before Roe versus Wade there were five states who had already legalized abortion in some way shape or form and these were New York California Washington State Alaska and Hawaii so unfortunately not the states you would want to say our representative set of states because why well they're all liberal? I mean so Alaskan. Why is weird very helpful at all? <hes> New York and California are on the cutting edge. Now one thing that's really important. Distress is at the states that legalized abortion earlier. Didn't you just get a five year head start on the legalization of abortion before Roe v Wade the actually were states that had many many more abortions a much higher abortion rate in the other state so if you look at the data now these states even today <hes> have abortion rate center almost double the abortion rates of the rest of the U._S.. Which again I think points out how poor it is natural experiment given that limitation it wouldn't be enough to just measure the crime rate in the early legalizing states and compare compare them to the rest of the states? You'd want a more precise measurement so we divide states into three equal sized groups to highest abortion rates states the medium abortion rate states and the lowest abortion rates and then we just look at those three groups and we tracked overtime what happened open to crime and so we're able to look and see what is it really true that the highest abortion states and the lowest abortion states had similar crime trends when you expected them to have similar trump trims it turns out in the data that that's that's exactly right. We found that there was roughly a thirty percent difference in what had happened to crime between the highest abortion states and the lowest abortion states by nineteen ninety-seven that seemed to be firm evidence in in support of the thesis now- Donohue and Levitt looked at crime data state by state by age of offender so the Nice thing in the data that we had available was we could look at arrest rates by single. Will Age of individual so if I'm born in nineteen seventy two in Minnesota well I probably live pretty similar life to someone who's born in nineteen seventy four in Minnesota okay in terms of other things like policing thing or you know drugs or other things in the environment but the differences that those who were born in nineteen seventy four were exposed to legalized abortion those who were born in Nineteen seventy-two weren't and we find numbers there that are completely consistent with the rest of our analysis that those who are born just a few years apart do much less crime than those who were born in their earlier years because the abortion rates were rising so sharply in the seventies these cohorts it's were coming into their crime ages in a stacked fashion and we could identify which abortion rates were associated with each particular age and the higher the abortion rate was for each age the the greater the crime drop occurring so as you're putting together this collage of evidence. What did it feel like see the strength of this evidence of the link between legalized abortion and crime did it immediately suggest policy or political or healthcare followups Stephen? I think both had this sense of something really unusual has suddenly happened in crime in the United States and we really just want to understand what that is. I I really wasn't thinking very much about the way in which this would be received. I really just wanted to understand. Is this a factor that has altered the path of crime in the United States Levin and Donohue would go on to publish their paper. The impact of legalized abortion on crime in the May two thousand one issue of the quarterly journal of Economics legalized abortion they wrote appears to account for as much as fifty percent of the recent drop in crime. Even before the paper was published their findings hit the news. I remember coming into my office and my voicemail was full. It was a whirlwind of reaction and some of it was a little unnerving because people were reading into the study things that we certainly did not intend everybody hated it. People who are in favor of right to life were upset upset because an argument seemed to be in Dorsey the idea that legalized abortion had positive effects but many people who believed in the right to choose they were also upset because we were kind kind of saying well. You're killing these fetuses so they never get a chance to grow up to be criminals. The number of death threats that I got from the left was actually greater than the number of death threats. I got from the right because the other thing that emerged out of the media coverage is that it very quickly became a question of race. Even though really are paper wasn't about race at all some people started to say that you know we we were trying to go back to the Times where people were pushing for control of the fertility of certain groups and maybe in racial groups and that was certainly not anything that <hes> we even considered we were just trying to figure out when public policy had changed in this profound way. Did it alter the path of crime. We certainly were eugenicist as some people initially or dude initially perhaps but recently only to this past may the U._S.. Supreme Court turned down on abortion related appeal from Indiana but Justice Clarence Thomas in an accompanying opinion wrote quote some believe that the United States is already experiencing the eugenic effects of abortion his citation freakonomics whether accurate or not he continued these observations echo the views articulated by the eugenicist and by planned parenthood founder founder Margaret Sanger decades earlier. I actually think that our paper makes really clear why this is nothing to do with eugenics in our pop assists. What happens is that abortion becomes legal? Women are given even the right to choose and what our data suggest is that women are pretty good at choosing win. They can bring kids in the world who they can provide good environments for and so the the mechanism by which any effects on crime have to happen. I've been here are the women making good choices and I think that's such a fundamental difference between women making good choices and eugenics which is about the state say or some other entity forcing choices upon people almost couldn't be more four different still the donahue argument linking abortion and crime was disputed on moral grounds on political grounds and on methodological grounds very soon there was a torrent of critiques and other academic trying to publish papers saying we were wrong. One critique came from Christopher Foot and Christopher gets to economists with the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston. They argue that Donahue and Levitz paper contained obtained a coding error which when corrected blunted their findings so in general I don't mind John's is to my work but I hate it when the challenges take the form of mistakes and that is an awful awful feeling to to have made a mistake which which we did in this case what exactly was this error and how did that happen so John Donovan I started working on this paper probably and I don't know nineteen she ninety six and it finally came out in two thousand and when you write an academic paper you go through a refereeing process and the refereeing process we went through was especially brutal so an enormous effort of time we were tired. We're burned out and one of the last things in those referee reports said you should add a table to your paper that looks very specifically by single year of H K so we initially when we submitted our paper had six tables in the paper are and we had thought of doing something that looked very specifically by single your age but we haven't done it but the referee suggested we do it and it was actually a really good sensible suggestion and so what we did was in a very tired quick way we added table seven torrid paper which turns out supported our paper but but we didn't try very hard we didn't really do it right. We just threw something together and it worked and so it turned out what foot and gets then we're responding to was that what we he said we did in table. Seven wasn't actually exactly what we did. We said we had included a particular set of interactions. We had actually run those regressions. Just when the numbers got translated into the table a different set of columns alums got put into the table. The error was almost more in the description of the paper rather than an actual mathematical error so we had said that we had controlled for state year a year effects in our paper which is sort of an econometric <hes> point of terminology when it was only a <hes> a state effect that we had controlled for and so it did weaken the result although did not fundamentally fundamentally alter the conclusion. I didn't feel like the foot and guests critique was very damaging to the hypothesis it was certainly damaging to me and my reputation because I had made those mistakes but the hypothesis I think come through and flying colors but by the time donohue and Levitt corrected their work and found that the correction did not weaken their hypothesis the headlines had already been written and so people made a lot of oh. There's a mathematical error here here which wasn't quite right. We really in some ways lost the media battle because we looked stupid because we had made the mistake. The headline in the Economist oops annex in the Wall Street. Journal freakonomics is abortion research is faulted by a pair of economists. It was fun for People To Jump On the bandwagon of attack missed because nobody really liked thoughts in the first place and so the silver lining on on foot and gets pointing out the mistake then actually gave us the opportunity opportunity to go back and take care of the of the measurement error that was in the data and actually think sensibly about it and so when we did table seven the right way even correcting for that mistake we made in the initial paper the results are actually stronger than ever to be fair. You can understand why the Levitt Donahue argument is an uncomfortable argument. No matter where you stand on abortion or cry it `attaches positive outcome to an inherently unhappy input it creates an awkward pairing of an intimate private decision with the public utilitarianism so even while their argument was empirically strong and their cause cause-effect mechanism plainly logical might be discomforting to fully embrace it especially when other more comforting theories present themselves. My Name is Jessica Walpole race and I am a professor of economics at Amherst Amherst College and I study the effects of environmental toxicants on social behavior one toxic race focused on was lead pollution. There is a huge literature on how lead is toxic to humans. Humans lead has cognitive health and behavioral effects so lead is associated with reductions in I Q it's associated with increased behavior problems in children. It also also has health effects Cardiovascular Effects Reno of facts and it's just really really bad so bad that lead could be a causal factor in criminality in other words exposure to lead in childhood could lead to criminality in adulthood two big sources of environmental lead in the old days were gasoline and paint and the reason I was thinking about lead was I was pregnant with my son and we lived in this really old house and we needed to move right. I knew that lead was bad but I started thinking about <hes> as with the abortion thesis which used Roe v Wade as a natural experiment races lead idea had a similar fulcrum okram point so yeah lead was taken out of gasoline under the authority of the E._p._a.. Under the Clean Air Act in the early nineteen seventies the E._p._A.. Mandated a timetable that timetable was changed a little and delayed but got it ended up that lead was phased out of gasoline from nineteen seventy five to one thousand nine hundred five. There are some important kind of corporate political dynamics so the different companies did this differently it wasn't driven by state policy and that's really important that it wasn't driven by state policy because that helps provide valid natural experiments so that you have different states experiencing different time patterns of lead Exposure Lake Donohue and Levitt race was was able to assemble a collage of evidence linking the removal of lead in different places and different times with the decline of crime in each place. She published her findings in two thousand nine arguing that the removal of lead under the Clean Air Act Act was quote an additional important factor in explaining the decline in crime in the nineteen nineties did her paper refute the Donohue Levitt conclusions about abortion and crime. My paper does not refute their conclusions to the contrary it actually reaffirms them. I include their abortion measure in my analysis and I find that the abortion effect is pretty much unchanged. When one includes the lead effect that the two effects are operating operating relatively independently and each one is of similar magnitude when you do or don't account for the other so what that means is that from my perspective I think both stories are true and we can hold both of them <hes> side-by-side it doesn't make sense to look for a single explanation for a decline in crime? There are lots of explanations so Jessica wrote a really interesting careful paper that tries to look at patterns in leaded gasoline lean and relate them to crime Steve Levitt again and I'd actually distinguish between the very thoughtful careful work that she did from some of the other work on lead which I think is is not nearly so good. It's funny that people are you. Oh that can only be one cause to why crime went out and if leads through the night can't be abortion when let the world is complex and there could be many things going on indeed. This is how many academic researchers and lots of other scientists generally think about the world. It's called Multi Vari causality that is almost no effect has only a single 'cause all the time which is why percentages and probabilities are useful they express the magnitude of various causes but here's the thing a lot of people who drive the public conversation these days especially politicians and journalists they don't seem very comfortable with the notion of multi variant causality why not it may simply be that this I is that stories make for better headlines and campaign slogans. Maybe it's because a lot of people who wind up in journalism and politics are not shall we say numerically inclined aligned to the point where percentages and probabilities are a bit intimidating in any case. What's a lay person to do if you're trying to make sense of debate over complex issues like this? I think it's really hard. I think it's really hard for a lay person to be able to watch a scientific debate or social scientific debate especially one that being mediated through newspapers and magazines and blogs so much being lost in translation and figure out what's really true. I it's not even easy for me as an academic and I think there's a much more intelligent way to discuss. Social Scientific Research is done now so right now. Maybe the most interesting way to portray the idea is to talk about the hypothesis and then almost absent a lot of discussion of data. Ask you'll make a judgment about whether the hypothesis is true. I actually think we should we should flip that discussion on its head head. If we want intelligent lay people to be able to make good choices about what they believe in don't believe then the basic premise has to start not necessarily from the hypothesis but from the data and so if the way social science was reported was to say here are the five facts that are true about the world and then what those mean are up to people to agree upon but that's never the way that discussions happened. Maybe because it's not interesting because it's a little too complicated. Maybe maybe it takes too much time but I think there's actually a lot less disagreement about facts than about the interpretation of the facts and so I believe that for an educated layperson given us at effects they can make a better judgment about how to interpret those facts then the current way the media treats things which is too often not talk about the vexed but just to talk about the interpretations and often to to focus on a really extreme an emphasis on on minor differences with that in mind Steve Levitt and John Donohue have added a new set of facts to the abortion conversation they went back to their original abortion crime analysis from roughly twenty years ago and plugged in the updated data coming up in a minute. We'll hear what they found and what sort of policy recommendations may suggest. We'll be right back <music> freakonomics radio sponsored by Ziprecruiter. 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TRY IT FOR FREE AT CAMPAIGN MONITOR DOT com slash freak no credit card or email marketing experience required campaign monitor make your emails Dell's unforgettable freakonomics. Radio is sponsored by Tree Green Summer is here so mosquitoes are to protect yourself your kids and your pets from biting Mosquitos with True Green Mosquito Defense True Green Mosquito defense eliminates spiting mosquitoes from your yard within twenty four hours of application. The service is performed by professionals and it's all backed by true Greens mosquito free guarantee. Get your first true green mosquito defense application for just thirty nine ninety five or or bundle your mosquito defense with the flea and tick service for just twenty dollars more visit true green dot com slash freak to get started. That's T. R. U.. Green dot com slash freak restrictions may apply in two thousand one the economists Steve Levitt and the economists slash legal scholar. John Donohue published a paper arguing that the legalization of abortion in the U._S.. Nineteen seventy-three accounted for as much as half of the nationwide reduction in crime generation later here's Levin so the abortion hypothesis is quite unusual among typical economic ideas in that it makes really strong and quite straightforward Lord predictions about what should happen in the future then the reason it has a characteristic is because we knew already when we published our paper in two thousand one how many abortions had been performed and because there's a fifteen to twenty year lag between in performing the abortion and the impact crime we could already mix strong predictions about what would happen to crime fifteen to twenty years later and so it was completely obvious to us that a sensible thing to do. <hes> twenty years later would be to look into how the predictions had turned out okay so you and John Donohue did revisit the study just released an update to that two thousand one paper and this one's called the impact of legalized abortion on crime over the last two two decades. Did your prediction turned out to be true fall somewhere in the middle when we revisit the exact same specifications but looking from nine hundred ninety seven to two thousand fourteen it turns out that a very similar pattern emerges the states that had high abortion rates over that period at thirty year period have crime rates have fallen about sixty percent more than the states that had lowest abortion rights these are really a massive changes and low and behold the results were substantially stronger than they were in the two thousand and one paper so that was an interesting and noteworthy finding now the the amazing thing and the thing that really almost gives me pause is how enormous our new paper claims the impact of legalized abortion because the cumulative effect over the last thirty years if you just just look at our numbers suggests that abortion might explain something like eighty or ninety percent of the entire decline in crime the effects implied bear data are so big that I actually think it will make people more rather than less skeptical about what's going on because it's it's almost mind boggling that a factor that so removed from the usual set of things that we think about influencing crime may have been such an enormous factor what would happen if you'd found the opposite is it that the impact of abortion on crime twenty years later you know had disappeared. I mean this is your most famous research. What do you think you would've done? I don't know human nature says maybe we would've tried to hide that like <hes> people make bad predictions. Try to hide it but I hope that we would published the paper anyway because the thing is if we didn't publish it someone else would published it. One of my first rules of doing research is when you find out you're wrong. It's much better to kill your own theory than have someone kill your theory. You know a lot has changed changed since nineteen seventy-three beyond abortion policy and abortion laws access to birth control and many other factors that may intersect or not with crime causal factors so I am curious weather you you feel in your new paper. You make clear that the effect is larger now turned out to be larger than you had predicted. Do you think it will continue to hold forth or is the world this complex world. We live in changing long enough so that the effective abortion on crime will diminish over time there are lots of moving parts to this story so one moving part is that there are other technologies for terminating pregnancies other than therapeutic abortions that may play a bigger role so for example you can actually go online and buy pills that can induce miscarriages and so you you might be seeing seeing some movement in those directions and presumably the greatest thing that could happen in this domain is if you would eliminate unwanted pregnancies in the first place but American policy has not been nearly as effective in achieving that goal a country like the Netherlands which has really tried to reduce unwanted pregnancies a has probably had the right approach in dealing with the the issues that are research at least <hes> raised so they have much much lower rates of abortion even though abortion is completely legal in the Netherlands but they want to stop the unwanted pregnancies on the front front end and I think almost everyone should be able to agree that that is the preferable way to you know focus policy of one Khin. It's worth noting that the term unwanted pregnancy is probably way too imprecise face to describe the individual choices made by individual people. There are of course many reasons why a given woman may decide to have or not have a baby so if you're thinking about policy ideas probably make sense to consider all these reasons and the nuances onces attached to each that said so-called unwanted pregnancies have been falling in the U._S.. Consider teenage pregnancies the vast majority of which are unplanned if not necessarily unwanted the teen pregnancy rate has declined by more than sixty percent over the past quarter century. The overall abortion rate has also fallen by nearly as much at the peak. You will recall there were one and a half million abortions a year compared to four million live births that was in nineteen ninety today with about the same number of live births. There are only about six hundred and forty thousand abortions. We'll those numbers fall. Even further Roe v Wade remains a contentious ruling and many opponents are committed to having the supreme in court overturn it in several states as we noted earlier have taken measures to limit or constrain abortion. I asked Lebanon Donahue what they might expect to happen to crime if or as abortion becomes less accessible so if indeed these states are making abortions much harder to get then our study our hypotheses unambiguously suggests that there will be an impact on crime in the future you you can imagine that if a state were to really clamp down on abortions but neighboring states permitted abortion you you would get some of this traveling to an abortion provider but since that would tend to <hes> have a disproportionate effect on lower socioeconomic status you might see exactly the problem that we have identified that the children that are most at risk because is there unwanted pregnancies would be the ones most likely to be born once. These restrictions are imposed on the other hand. I don't think anyone who is sensible should use our hypothesis to change their mind about how they feel about legalized abortion so it it really isn't very policy relevant if you're pro-life and you believe that the fetus is equivalent in moral value to a person well then the trade off is awful. What does he mean by an awful tradeoff remember? There's still more than six hundred thousand abortions a year in the U._S. and John Donohue and I estimate maybe that they're five thousand ten thousand fewer homicides because of it but if you think that AH fetus is like a person that's a horrible trade off so I ultimately I think our study is interesting because it helps us understand why crime has gone down but in terms of policy towards abortion. I think you really misguided if you use our study to base your opinion about what the right policies towards abortion but let me ask you this. If someone wants to use this research to consider policy you're implying that the policy that I should think about is not abortion policy but some kind of child welfare policy what would that be. I mean that's obviously a much less binary and much harder question but what kind of policy would be suggested so I think there are two policy domains domains for which this research is important. Let me start with the obvious one which is crime we spent enormous amounts of money on police and prisons and other programs we incarcerate millions of people and much of the justification for that what comes from the idea that those are effective policies for reducing crime so I think that's actually the most obvious implication of our paper that if it's really true that most of the decline in crime is due to legalized abortion then it brings brings real caution to the idea that a super aggressive <hes> kind of policing and incarceration policy is necessarily the right one to pursue but the second one really does relate to the idea that if unwanted Nisa is such a powerful influence on people's lives then we should try to do things to make sure that children are wanted you could at least begin to think about how you would create a world in which kids grow up more loved and appreciated and with brighter futures and you know it's at better early education is that you know permits for parents or training for parents or you know minimum incomes who who knows what the answer would be but there's a whole set of topics. I think which are not even on the table. How do you work generally or most often? Do you have a thesis and go looking for data to support or dispute the thesis or do you look for interesting data and see what hypothesis emerges but it turns out in this particular case John Donahue and I had a hypothesis and then we went to the data but that's pretty rare in economics and social scientists scientists often either you start with the data or set of patterns and then you build a theory back from that or or often what happens is you have a theory have a hypothesis and you go to the data and then you're wrong but just looked at the data. I still have a lot interesting better. The data and then you go back and reconstruct a new hypothesis based on what you've seen and actually one of the things that troubles me most about the way that academic economics happens is that there's this complete fiction the way we write our papers in that that economists right up our research as if we rigorously follow the scientific method that we have a hypothesis and then we come up with a set of predictions and then we test those predictions and then they're almost always come true by the time we right the paper because you only include your hypothesis the one that is supported even if it turns out. It's your seventh hypothesis and you. I got rejected when you're doing researcher somewhat attached to your hypothesis but you need to try to keep a bit at arm's length again is Jessica Walpole race who about the link between crime and lead pollution. He should be trying to figure out what is true so I think that the complexity of what we do the fact that we use all of these econometric on a metric techniques to figure out these complex situations makes it suspicious to people right. It's sort of like this magic thing we're doing and then we come out with results so I completely understand that and the number of times people have said well you know of correlation isn't causation. What yes we know? That's what we do right. We we take things we start with a correlation. We're like <hes>. I wonder if that's causal. How can I figure out? Is that causal. Where can I find some variation in something that drives the thing that I want to see if it affects I still find it really difficult to explain fully what we are doing when we are separating correlation from causation and even find it like my family? I can't convince them. They're like yeah well. You know whatever I mean. They sort of buy it after a while but it takes a long time and I think it's reasonable for people to say I don't know what you're doing. You're doing something complicated and fancy and then you're saying you've done something. That seems implausible. What we should do I think is I just settled on the facts? I think a great approach is not to say here's my hypothesis a great approach to say here's what we know about the world here are the seven facts I wonder if we take it away from this this abortion crime issues specifically though and think about any other really contentious issue climate change income inequality gun controlled Cetera and you see how people make very very strident arguments often as you said not really using the fully considered set of the data. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that the issues themselves in the causal mechanisms underneath them are actually kind of less important to people than the tribal affiliation with a position. I think there's a lot of validity to that argument. I think that many of these contentious issues you noted there ultimately not so much about utilitarian arguments and I think that's fair. Obviously it matters a lot to know whether humans are responsible for climate change because it silly to radically change everyone's behavior if we're not responsible for it so there's an enormously important role for science in understanding those causal mechanisms but in terms of the public debate and what people believe leave. I think you're absolutely right that oftentimes what we believe is driven not by the exact facts but by our conception of what kind of person we are or how we want the world to be discussion about right or wrong and it would be useful if people remembered and we're able to put okay. I'm putting my right and wrong hat on as I talk about this or I'm putting my scientific head on as I talk about exactly how much the world is warming and those are both very important conversations to have where I think we'd get lost is when we are having a conversation which confounds scientific and right and wrong issues or confuses them or mixes them and a and it's hard for people to make that distinction. I know that you pride yourself Levitt a not being a right or wrong guy but I am curious how being the author of this theory and paper has informed if not changed the way you think about the issue particularly of of children <hes> wanted nece unwanted nece and for the record we should say that you have six kids so plainly you're in the pro kid camp and you want them. Has this entire her arc of the story the early paper The dispute your re litigation of it does this change at all. You're thinking about the nature of why people have children in what we do with them after we have them so so that's a pretty profound to question. Let me answer very narrow aspect of that question. So if there's one thing that comes out of our research is the idea that unwanted nece is super powerful and it's affected me as as a father in the sense that I think when I was having kids I I didn't feel maybe so obligated to make children feel loved and it's interesting that now as I go through a second round of kids I not trying trying to teach my kids very much. I'm just trying to make them feel incredibly loved and it seems to me that that's a pretty good premise for young kids and like I don't know is that because I wrote this paper on abortion and crime maybe partly maybe partly not but it it does seem to me a very powerful force and there is something so incredibly tragic to me about the idea that there are kids out there who aren't loved and who suffer and it's backed up. I think by our data that that the them them too tough things in in life. I really think I've gotten very mellow. In old age I was it was funny I was I was like a super rational calculating kind of person and as I've gotten older I've gotten very soft and friendly and nice and I never would have imagined that I would be so accepting of my teenagers and their various foibles but it's it's funny I you know I I really different person than I used to be and <hes>. Is this a product of just aging or something else. I don't think so I think sometimes when people get older they get mean and sometimes they get nice and I'm not sure why got nice instead of mean but I somehow became more human you know me and like I'm not exactly complete human like I'm lacking some of the basic things that many humans have but I think somehow I'm growing more human traits overtime. Don't you think I do I. Do I definitely do but I'm curious. What's the causal mechanism honestly maybe to you governor? Maybe it's hanging around with us. <hes> in your humanity has said it to to robuck. I doubt it but I'll take credit for. We're coming up next time on freakonomics radio. We are the second largest cookie business in America. Who Do you think has the second largest cookie business in America? I'm Sylvia possibly and I'm C._E._O.. Girl Scouts of the U._S._A. U._S._A.. Before that she was tech Exec a rocket scientist and before that a little girl of whom not much was expected they signed up to go to college counseling and she said girls like you don't go to college now. Sabido runs the girls organization that extraordinarily high percentage of exceptional women have passed through what's her secret girl scout number one talks about leadership the boy scouts and yes how to sell seven hundred million dollars always worth of cookies every year. It's next time on freakonomics radio. FREAKONOMICS radio is produced by stitcher and w productions this episode was produced by Zach Lipinski. 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Steve Levitt Lake Donohue Economist Times Wade Roe Steve Levin John United States Lebanon Donahue Donahue Supreme Court New York City John Donahue Jessica Walpole Stephen Dubner Jamie progressive New York
College Basketball Coaching Trees and the Journey from West Lafayette with Steve Lavin

Titus & Tate

1:31:55 hr | 1 year ago

College Basketball Coaching Trees and the Journey from West Lafayette with Steve Lavin

"Today's episode of Titus and we'll be talking to our new colleague. Steve Lavin Steve Coach coach. Steve Lavin coach lab laugh and calm. Whatever you he doesn't care he He showed up in studio. He was wearing a full. Get up Adidas Jumpsuit. And then like he wasn't full US. Get up and try to act like it just randomly happened. He didn't know where it can summarize hair. I was raised by his steady. It was a fun interview. He's a he. He got his start at purdue in Being in Indiana Guy. I do a lot of people that he knows and I wanted to ask you a million things. But I don't know I it was. It was a great interview. I could talk to him for forever and the people are asking. Did you sign your today? Did you sign your letter was ready. Yeah Yeah He. At two different times he was basically explained to me what made say John so great and then he was also explain what. Made Ucla. So Great. And I was like I commit both coach. I'll play for both program. Well we committed lab Fox We're also going to talk about we're going to do speaking of UCLA. It works out well that former. Ucla head coach was here because we have to talk about the Ucla Bruins in the PAC. Twelve update the hottest team in America. I'm taking Fisher. Not just the PAC twelve. They're the hottest team in America. Mick Cronin has the hottest man in America. He's the sexiest man alive. what UCLA's doing. This is unbelievable. We we went to Pauley pavilion for both games in just one And and that is going to encompass a big part of your update. I think that it is the entire we went to back to. Ucla Games Mick. Cronin is like you said the hottest coaching America People Love Cronin. And if you had told us this in December I think that I could have told you. Fifteen million things being. Maybe the Milky Way doesn't exist anymore and here we are billion years. It's going to happen. According to the twitter like gift. That was a buckle for that one. Najia really getting also a pretty weird Saturday with Baylor. Losing we you know we lost. I don't know if you saw that tape. What's on back to back? They already laws. Because I said do Clawson you know. We already talked about that. Not they lost again and they sell all the way to twelve. What A DROP-OFF So yeah there are some shakeup Maryland. Lost I don't know how that happened. That was that was very surprising. Who saw that coming? So we're GONNA talk about some of that. There's there's obviously a ton of stuff going on college. Basketball March is officially here. We have to get excited. We have to get revved up for the greatest month of the year