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Walking the Walk: Ep. 164
We know that many of you consider unorthodox family show and listen to it with your children, which gives us great, delight. So please be aware that some foul language may be used. This has been your obscenity. Warning. I got new pillows because I realized in fifteen years in my house. I'd never replaced. My pillow's. You do seem a little more more Chipper. It's life changing like by pillows are flouncy and bouncy. And I got new pillowcase. My mother reminded me that I need the pillowcase covers that go between the pillow and the pillow case. Monster lip covers right? We're would pay for a tape of these conversations allies, you know, Hello, Mark your mother. Did you get the pillow cases that go between the pillow and the other pillow? This is an orthodox the universe leading Jewish podcast. I and your host Mark Oppenheimer joined by tablet, deputy editor Stephanie button IC happy twenty nine t I meant that you're going. I in the first show in studio of twenty nineteen. And we're joined by senior writer liba, vets putting the band back together the band back together we here at Argo studios in the flat iron district are Jew of the week this week threefold a tripartite Jew of the week three people adding up to one Jew actor writer. Mark Zuckerberg, portraying Jesse Eisenberg has produced a new film called the world before your feet, and we got to talk with him and the director Jeremy workman and the subject of the movie Matt greens more on that in a bit, and our gentile the week is ice investigator rook meaning Callum aqui who's podcast caliphate, blue everyone's mind in two thousand eighteen we're getting we're getting to this a little bit late. But you know, what podcasts are forever? Someone will be listening to this episode in twenty forty five and saying when the pride casts it'll be well, how will they in? What form will they be getting it, by the way, I love their year. References like not they would be saying, what's ISIS. Is this is still be around. But I don't know. No. But I meant they'll be listening to unorthodox in twenty forty nine and saying remember when Leah liebowitz was tall. Remember when only one percent of the world, reduce Jews as opposed to, you know, sixty three are master plan reveal right of my God. Leo, we have not yet caught up with you since you were in the holy land over holy daybreak. You had a meet our Smith's with our listeners of all that was yet some people call it Christmas markets. Okay. We're not fighting the war in Christmas. We've lost. Giving up a long time at Christmas one about two thousand years ago. I was initial it was amazing in so many ways. First of all we were there with our two children who we slept all over the country in what I really can only describe as a sort of like toddler birthright, which is exactly the same as birthright minus the bedouin ten night and sending house rally soldiers because instead of sex with Israeli soldiers who just get crumble like twice a day. And you feel just as like orgasmic, and it's amazing. You get what twice it I Rambo. It sounds like a disease. You get soldier was what is wrong when you've never had a cramp. Oh now. Okay. You know, you're inferior Ramallah models. You know, the thing with a stuffed Kareem in the biscuit Uchoa snack. So we have that like time two million. And he stuff it in your mouth is. So like terrific on the Israeli culinary tour that you can conduct your kosher market after Bomba a thousand percent, okay. If you could give criminal and then then we had the pleasure. The privilege the honor of meeting the fans of of this here on north of Intel v which is so amazing. So I look up because I haven't lived until v for a hundred and eighty years, so I look up hottest bar until. Google like in petition. In Tel Aviv. Adviser dot com and good. Okay. Anyone in my space, really great Kumar until reading on friendster. And so and so ask Jeeves suggests just a Spar Cole. Dizzy Frisch, Don, which I think like sounds dizzy, I on sounds like the name of the best ophthalmologist and Boca. Like how you have problems. Go. See dizzy Frisch. Don, a first John is a forgotten big band. Clarinetist insist amazing because I would like to bring that back. We we walked dizzy should can be name. So we walked by dizzy fish, which is on Disney streets. I it's like five PM, and we see nothing. It's just like the dusty stupid storefront. And I see this can't be the place that is supposed to be a hip borrow. He's dirty them. And then we come back two hours later and by absolute Dame of some miracle. They've put out, you know, twenty tables in the sidewall, and there are now a hundred and sixty thousand threes. All drinking our work and having the time of their lives. Unlike a Thursday afternoon going out super like kind of connected and our fans arrived, and they were so amazed where they they were legion. They were cool. They did the best things in the world. We have a tape. Holy later on us. I won't spoil the details. But love y'all Stephanie what's going on with you guys. I went to my first bump mitzvah in a number of years. And it was their amazing. The plu Sasha Pollux Salem shows. Jason this is a city you're getting thank you. So this was Jolie. Federman spot mitzvah, her dad. Matthew Futterman has been on the show on their friends of ours. And it was very exciting. She had one of those really long Torres. And you know, like, it's basically luck of the draw. Helen, what Torah portion and have Tara you get and hers was like hell along, and and she was so good aced it and. She had a good voice. And it was just like, wow. I definitely was not that poised at thirteen didn't feel weird for you to now be further away from the bud mitzvah girl, each to sort of be the adult in the room. Well, here's the thing. So afterwards, there was a luncheon. But we did snag an invite to the kids party later. We're like sword of on the cusp. We were too tired after the kids says that we went to the right party. But yeah, no, it's fun. I love it enough. News about us though. Leo what's going on out there in the wider world of the Jews? Would you believe that the state of his oh cold for wait for it an early election? I thought it was a snap election a snap election. Do they ever not have early elections? Have I don't actually deadly serious note? I don't think that they actually ever had election in the exact time when the election was supposed to be on like frosted like oh twenty twenty twenty. Gestion, and it's like maybe April of mixed year, or like how September elections are on Jewish time is what you're saying. It's so amazing. But here's the most amazing thing. The most amazing thing is that the frontrunner. And all this business is the former chief of staff Benny guns now Benny guns. Benny guns. Isn't that the coolest name, I think my great great uncle was was shot gangland style. Isn't that the best name for UNC a Jewish soldier let let's just say it's geo NS. I think it's G A N T, but any guns guns, the Super Cobra? I d- would you like to know what Benny guns as positions are now. So would I so it everyone in Israel. Here's the amazing thing. And I mean, this truly I'm not being you know, slide here, I think this is an unbelievable new approach appalled. Expanding came out and said, I'm not going to say what I believe. And then people said, well, why not you're running for office? And he said, well, these are very divisive times if I say what I believe in just being division. Can we all just get together? It's like, you know, the old stories about the wise men of how like. Could we this is it? It's just a thing of good of genius. Except the if he if he actually does that right? They did does he's he's he has like according to policy is like seventy seats in the Knesset does justify saying like, let's talk about enough to home. We're gonna lose tomatoes. Definitely gonna wind come on. He never loses is up in news of the Jews. So Ruth Bader Ginsburg missed supreme court arguments for the first time ever as she recovers from lung cancer surgery. She is however following long with case she's reading briefs and transcripts, so she she just sort of like not there, she still working, and she'll still be part of the decision. But you know, I think the only thing we could do right now is another Ruth Bader Ginsburg movie this time, she's played by Christian bale. Should we kind of amazing? In slightly more trivial dues George r r Martin who wrote the game of thrones books on which the TV show that Leo convinced me to boycott has has been based boycott, just you know. Yeah. Surely overcome. I watched three or four seasons of it. And then decided that I agreed. With you that it was just to Neolithic that good people can't spend that much time in that kind of. All right. Give us the discussed. Anyway, he went on that PBS show with Henry Louis gates junior. Were you were they do your DNA test? And find out what you are talk about. What it means turns out, he's twenty two point four percent Oscar Nause Jewish we know that actually these things are not that precise. And that the idea of how Jesus say me. That a fat white bearded man who spent this entire day contemplating fictitious universes joke. But what's at Beijing? Is what's a basic is that because a test of his maternal grandparents showed only Irish ancestry there. Now speculating that his father is grandfather had left his grandmother after discovering she had an affair with a Jewish man. I might have gotten a little bit. I basically, it doesn't actually make sense based on what you knew your family to be basically they've uncovered there. Sean Spicer, our stooping Jew and shortly thereafter grandpa through grandma for the top of a tower in Pale There on a steak funny, Betty guns, killed his grandmother. This thing is that the other half of the show was Andy Sandberg finding out who's, you know, very Jewish party out. He's a talion. Right. So this is just because he can now get pizza with Jason Biggs whose Italian now. So. Sweep three Jewish guests this week. I sat down with Jesse Eisenberg who in addition to being in a ton of movies. Notably playing Mark Zuckerberg in the social network, which I recently rewatch mix Luther in that other course, controlling the world he executive produced the new documentary the world for your feet, which falls Matt green as he walks every block of New York City, Jesse Matt and the film's director, Jeremy workman came into tablets offices a few weeks ago to tell me all about Matt's unusual journey, and they're very terming film about it have a listen. All right. So to get started could each of you introduce yourselves and explain your role in the film, Jeremy workman. I'm the director of the world before your feet. I met green. I'm the guy who walks around in the movie, I'm Jesse Eisenberg. I was the executive producer. So Matt can tell a little bit about your project, and obviously the basis of the film. What are you what are you doing? And how exactly does it work? I'm walking every block of every street and the five boroughs of New York, and also like parks and. Cemeteries and beaches and other open public spaces. And yeah, I've I've I'm about ninety five percent down with it. I've walked over nine thousand miles now with a few hundred left to go. And so can you give us a typical day of walking? When did you start? How many miles you offshore? It varies a lot. Actually, there's no real typical day. It depends on you know, I mean how much daylight there is which is based on what time of the year. It is sometimes I have something have to do on a given day or sometimes I don't so I could have fourteen mile fourteen hour day where I walk twenty three miles or I could have a five hour a day where I walk ten miles or so it varies a lot and certain neighborhoods. I'm move more quickly through if they're kind of lower lying and more open, and then other places like, you know, a lot of places in Manhattan are so jam packed with stuff that it's kind of slow going as I look around. And but this isn't your first major walk walking project is it. No, it's not I am not. In two thousand ten I did walk across America from Rockaway beach, New York to Rockaway beach, Oregon, how long did that take that took five months from March twenty seventh to August twenty fifth, and you would just walk and then you actually weren't just walking by yourself. You had your sort of your cart. I have carton at a cool looking cart. There was an old jogging stroller without a seat, and I had a little platform on it. And I had a big twenty gallon plastic container and a little cooler and a couple of backpacks that hung off the cart, and I walked around with a cool fluorescent safety vest and a Big Hat to keep the sun off my face, and this awesome looking car and to the U after that decided that New York was going to be your next. Yeah. I've been living in New York already for years when I started that that US walk. So so I came back to New York. And then I started thinking about doing this walk of every block in the city. I had heard of a couple of guys who had walked every block Manhattan, which is. Thought was really interesting concepts was not not something I'd thought of before as a way to experience a place. So I started wondering if I could do that for all five boroughs. So Jeremy when did you decide you needed to film this? Why known Matt for like about a decade now. So I had been interested in mad and his walking projects for several years even predating his US walk. I had just been following him and a friend of his and had been really interested in his he has a blog, you know, that he puts photos on. I'm just walking dot com. And you know, it's kind of mundane details of the city, you know, it could be pretty small things like fire hydrants or really big, you know, huge things in New York City like like bigger fire hydrant, a bigger fire hydrants, but it could also sort of touch on Carnegie Hall, or whatever. So it sort of has this range of the really micro and the macro. So I was really interested in his blog, and as a friend of mine, I just you know, would always hear about these sort of interesting takes on New York City that seems so different from how I had thought about the city myself having lived here for two deck. Gaid's? So Finally, I just finished another movie I had some time, and I just sort of said to Matt again as a friend. Why don't I come along on your New York walk and just get some footage of what you're doing? It'll just be me. I won't be bring like a big crew. And we'll just see, you know, maybe we'll get something cool. And I think he was just glad that he didn't have to do it a couple couple of times alone, and I sort of followed along with him and that morphed into this long filming process where I film them for three years, and I found about five hundred six hundred hours, and he sort of invited me to come along with him on for a for big wide long length of his walk. I didn't walk every day. But I did many many hours with them. How much should you walk because you're basically doing the lock at the same walk quite as much as math. But I probably definitely logged a few hundred miles. I definitely went through a number of shoes. I my feet or are completely thrashed from this. Project and all in all I probably had like I said five to six hundred hours. I lost track of how much footage and that then we sat down into a ninety minute movie. So it was it was a hard editing project. But yeah, it was really interesting to film and just to get to go along with mount. So I was wondering when I was watching it. I assume there was some sort of vehicle that the camera was on. But I found it was actually you holding a cab. Yeah, I wish there was a vehicle that would have been easier. I did the whole movie hand-held I held the camera and walked with Matt. And there was a couple of times when I experimented with. You know, some like devices hand held devices Kimble's stabilisers and nothing ever really worked and everything sort of was was was difficult. So I just kept on reducing reducing and just took a cat a camera and put it on a mono pod. And basically did the whole whole movie hand-held. You know, Matt wasn't Matt was doing his his project, and I didn't want to sort of impact at t much. So I would just sort of follow along and where he went I followed, and I tried to sort of stay out of the way a little bit to allow the authenticity in the spontaneity just to happen in New York City. So Jesse what attracted you to this film, really every every single aspect of it. Jeremy had sent me a rough cut he was working on two years ago. And as he said, he filmed about five hundred six hundred hours of footage. So I think he, you know, being isolated in a room editing. It I think he wanted kind of like a second pair of eyes on it. And then I'll and I'll tell you. I was really an anticipation of a of doing this today. And kind of filtering so many things in my life through the lens of what does this say about Judaism? Or how does this fit into like Jewish culture? Maybe just as an extension of my own narcissism. I was watching. There's so much about this movie that is distinctly Jewish to me, you have this essentially a displaced guy displaced because of his own making not because of any kind of you know, perjure faira. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he's displaced guy in New York and by virtue of his own curiosity. An interest in other people and good nature like kind of assimilates into all these other cultures around the city. And so the movie shows in this really beautiful way this guy walking into areas that most that most people who live in the richer parts of New York City, don't go to because they think it's dangerous, and here, you have this guy going to these places with a curiosity with an open mind with an interest in them and seeing how beautifully you can kind of assimilate and to me it's like kind of a microcosm of a Jewish story. And that's really why I think it appealed to me is because it it feels like this kind of familiar tale that I see in a lot of stories. He's literally walking for forty years, exactly. The smartphone. Eight a camel in queens by the Mata. So let's let's talk about some of the Jewish the Jewish content since you brought it up. There's can you? Tell us about the church. God's sure church Gog our buildings that were originally synagogues, and the Jewish population shifted, and no one knew that the neighborhood is no longer Jewish the synagogue left. And now churches have taken over the building a new coin that term, didn't you? I did. But I try to say like, it's a real terms. I wanted to catch on anyone listening. It's been around for awhile sound educated. When you say it was there another option terms of terms. It's it was only when the work in Senator ch ch you can't even do half. So so it's it's not it's not the greatest term, but it rolls off the tongue nicely. And so now, they are functioning church another church. It's yes. And you know, you see I mean, that's always been an interesting thing to me in general idea of places at were houses of worship or things that have become houses of worship crossing that divide between secular and the sacred like when you see a Bank. That's now a church that's kind of an interesting thing, or, you know, movie theaters that used to be churches or walk with him in all these different areas like Harlem, or in the Bronx, east, New York Brownsville, and Matt would just sort of spot these buildings all over the all over the the areas, and just you know, they've all been sort of converted summer, most churches now different different kinds of churches to different religions, and it's really fascinating was something that I had never really thought about myself, and then just sort of walking with Matt they just sorta sprout out, you know, in all these places in New York that you least expect them and the. Another thing you see a lot of New York is is a religious buildings that are now condo's, which, you know, make for very interesting floor plans and window shapes and stuff like that. Because you your window will be like a quarter of a big former stained glass window or something that's sort of one way that the city has changed over the years. And I'm curious for all of you the ways I imagine you guys pay attention to things differently now. And just if you've taken stock of the way, you have the scene in the far Rockaway where they're these sort of like open condos that were never built before the recession. What what is the biggest way you think the city has changed? I'm actually probably the worst person to give you an answer for that. Because you know, what I'm doing is not looking at the city as a whole. It's looking at these tiny fine grain details of the city. And so I really, you know, lose sight of the city as a whole, and I have like, and I'm also far more hesitant to try to characterize it in any particular way. Because once you've. Seen all the details of something. You realize how impossible is Denver summit up. Somebody in the film. There's a a little community of other walkers like, Matt. And there's this great interview that we did with a guy named Garnett cod again. And he he had this great line that sounds so obvious, but it really stuck with me about New York City, which is that every street is like a fossil record. And there's just so many details that you kinda scratch the surface, and you as you scratch the surface all these things sort of reveal themselves, and they could be historical social, they could be hugely significant. They could be sort of minor details that are sort of embedded in the landscape of the city. And I think that was what was most striking on. My end was just a reminder that I mean, obviously, we all know New York City is this is this mecca of historical significance. But it you forget just like how you could just kind of look at even some of the smallest details, and they sort of. You know, huge important things sort of kind of come out of them. And that was a real reminder to me too. And I think that said more to me about the city than anything was just the reminder that you could just look at any one small area, and like a fossil sort of see the strata of all kinds of interesting things you just kinda have to like kind of slow down a little bit. And look and you'll suddenly things they'll just start emerging in popping up. I feel like I walk around with if I'm not looking at my cell phone. I have my headphones in and I've tuned out everything around me. And so why is this this film, which basically says look up why is it so important now, I've I've kind of removed this idea of like having a goal or destination for my life, both my life in general. And specifically when I'm out walking, and you don't realize until you don't have a destination. How hard it makes it to pay attention things when you're going somewhere else and. So for me, it's not that. I had some great insight that this would happen. When I started this walk. It was just kind of a coincidence that by by removing this idea of like always being on the way to somewhere it just kind of open up the world to me. And, you know, people asked me if I listen to music or something when I'm walking, and I don't 'cause I'm just trying to be out there, observing what's going on. And you know, you just realize how how much. How much of life like you're trying to escape places normal life. You trying to put the music on. So you can just get through this space and have it have the time just pass by and like be where you really wanna be. And so I think when you just kind of get rid of all those other distractions or all those other ways of passing time you're forced to experience where you are. And to realize how much is there that you've never looked at before? Yeah. But I think one of the great things about the movie and even though Matt just describe like how he's not kind of. How he's not distracted by modern technology is that the movie is really not a kind of polemic against you know, in technology infringing on our appreciation for nature appreciation for social interactions. I mean, I also I think that's not in Mets interest. And it's not in Jeremy's interest. They're not doing this certainly match. Walk is not a kind of referendum on, you know, listening to music while you walk. I think he's just showing I think the wonderful. It can be to appreciate looking at your surroundings and living in your surroundings and kind of not putting blinders on, but the movie I don't think is not didactic in any way or censure against. I dislike to lecture everyone. Right. I loss. I have a lot of anxiety about your living situation. Cost me, extreme stress. Come watch your cat you. So let's talk about cats because they are basically like the other character in the film. Yes. Yeah. The CAD better care the pets. That's all. We know. No, one would watch this thing. If there weren't cats in it. Yeah. I watch. I I don't have an apartment, which is how the budget works out for me. I had to kind of cut out rent to make the equation where so I do a lot of couch surfing cat sitting plant sitting. Anything that needs to be set? I can handle it and cats are base cats are really the the bread and butter of of the law. That's why you're dealing doing it. I know because you know, I can get someone will go away for two weeks, and I'll have a house to stay in for two weeks and just take care of a cat and exchange. Yeah. Matt would call me up when we were in the middle of making the movie, and he would just say, hey, I have a new I'm on the Upper West side does a new cat. It's orange, and I would instantly like, you know, the fi like a fireman or something like race with my camera to film at or there would be a cat that would drink out of the bathtub or I like doing that Schuttler Austin. Yeah. So there was a cat that turns out the lights. So I knew that we had to have seen with a lot of cats. I mean, there was forty fifty cats or something that I guess all loan. So so this is your first executive producer role was always part of the plan or did this project speak to you. When I was born. My mother looked at me and said, you know, he will executive produce something and thirty four, you know, not only was it not part of the plan. But I I have a skew. But it multiple times because a lot of times when you're acting and things they ask you to produce it as well to kind of get the financing early on and to have your name kind of be part of that. And I've never wanted to do that. Actually, probably primarily because it feels like doubling down on something that might turn out badly. But with this. I watched the movie I watched a rough cut, and I just thought it was so wonderful, and I also didn't have any interest in producing this. Jeremy asked me would. I would I what I want to my first feeling was no because I don't do that. And I don't have any expertise. I don't know anything. And I didn't think I had anything to add to it. Because I thought what Jeremy had done was perfect. But I watched the movie. Twice the day. Sent it to me. I showed it to my wife. Who's a, you know, she's she's not in the art. She's a she's a teacher and she loved it for entirely different set of reasons, I loved it. Because I thought I can totally relate to Matt. He's a curious guy. Looks like me funny. I thought it was really entertaining. My wife saw it as you know, this kind of social Justice piece about this guy who's going into the forgotten parts of New York City. And so I realized this movie had like such an unusual appeal because it touches on so many things. Oftentimes in kind of subtle ways. So that you can kind of experience it in a personal way. And so I told Jeremy that I'll do anything I can to help you kind of champion it whether that means executive producing or sending it to people, I know or something. And so so that's what we decided on. But in terms of any kind of creative input. There's nothing I could have said that would have made it better. Because I thought what he had done was just so so wonderful. You did probably propose like wandering Jew as the title. It's funny. I was actually just I was reading the Wikipedia page this morning of that. Because I was because I I had a feeling that that might come up today. And I didn't realize it's a plant and a lot of this movie actually is about the flora of New York City. And I was wondering if there's a one or two, and yeah, but I also I couldn't figure out do, you know, is that like a it seems like it's a horrible thing to say does. And it's weird that it's the plan. Isn't it like that's like a there's a Jews? There's like something. That's also like that. I don't know about this. Ear something for that. Also, maybe a plant. Oh, yeah. That you're a juice foreskin. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to trim them usually for seven days after they grow. I wanna get some recommendations like what are the best walking shoes? What kind of like wyking technology? Should we be using? I want to be prepared. Yeah. I think that. To focus on that stuff too much because walking's pretty low impact. And it's not like running where you could really screw your your feet up. If you're wearing the wrong thing. I just I just keep wearing the same kind of boots solely because I have the calluses in the right place for that type. So I think it's all about consistency. You know, when you watch the movie, you sort of are reminded that this is a really simple pursuit. This is not something that should be capitalized or commodified that really anyone could do it. I think that's what's kind of reminds people's that. It's it's it's not a feet like there's this documentary that is it's to feel. Yeah. That's funny. There's a documentary a great documentary out now free solo which is about a guy who climbs a Yosemite El capitan without ropes. You know, it's so extraordinary. But what's I think it kind of interesting about what Matt's doing is is it's not necessary extrordinary, it's kind of ordinary, but he is just committed to it in such a way, and it's such a passionate way with such curiosity that it becomes really interesting. But it is a reminder that it's something that anyone could do. It's something that we've sort of said when we've shared the film, you know, that this is really this simple thing that anyone could do it's not, you know, I don't think Matt who's sitting next to me would say he's unique. He's just doing what anyone could do. And I think that's comes through in the film as well. And I think it's something a lot of people do when they first moved to New York. If the grew up here, I think you come to New York, and I think it was great curiosity about it. And you walk in you at least explore your area. And then I think as your life takes on a road nece. End up just taking the same block. And as Matt says or is gone that says something like, you know, if you live on sixteenth street chances are you'll never go to seventeenth street because it's probably the only street you'll never go to because it's it's parallel to the only one you have to go into. And so and so you end up missing end up missing a lot. And I think what this movie does. And what Matt does is kinda give people permission to go back to that curiosity? That was initially so exciting to them when they moved to such an interesting metropolis, Jeremy workman macrey Jesse Eisenberg. Thank you guys so much the world before your feet is playing in select theaters in New York, Los Angeles and Philadelphia find out more at the world before your feet dot com. Thank you. 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And if you use the code unorthodox thirty you'll get thirty percent off your first order. That's right. What's the unorthodox? Thirty four thirty percent off. Jay, chef ships to the whole US except for the west coast, but they're working on that. So for everyone who's not west coasters who needs a home delivery service who wants to cook more easily freshly and deliciously J chef dot com slash. Hey, J crew, it's the producer. Josh here crazy thing on the upcoming segment. Even though we were all in the same room, the guests might came out all fuzzy because of random radio interference. Even after Sofia didn't incredible job cleaning up, I wound up adding a little bit of white noise. Like that machine they use it. My shrinks office to help clean it up for reasons that will become clear in the interview, I blame ISIS for the noise. Have a listen. Our gentile of the week is rough Meany Kelly Machi, a New York Times foreign correspondent who covers terrorism and the Islamic state. She's the host of caliphate serialized podcast for the New York Times, which tracks the rise of the Islamic state and offers a fascinating terrifying. Window into the world. She reports on welcome community. Thank you for. So let's start off with could you tell us about caliphate the podcast for those listeners who haven't yet binged all ten episodes. Sure. So caliphate is the first narrative nonfiction podcast that the New York Times this done, and I was approached actually by Andy mills who's my collaborator and partner on the podcast. Andy comes from an interesting background much like mine where he's interested in faith interested in belief, and we wanted to essentially try to do the deepest look at ISIS today. What did they actually believe who who are? They who are we really fighting. I think there's been a lot of sort of. Man, portrayal of of this group, two dimensional boogeyman, the monster portrayal, and we wanted to see if we could go beyond that and try to touch the humanity of these people who are doing these truly horrific things try to understand why why in the world would this be appealing to somebody? And we found that vehicle through a young man in Canada. He goes by the no Daguerre of who's Eva Canadian, so who's Asia, and he was an ISIS member who had gone and joined the Islamic state fought with them did a number of things on on their at their command and then managed to come back to Canada. And it's extremely rare. I've now by now interviewed probably between two and three dozen ISIS members. But the vast majority of them I've interviewed in jail. It's very very hard to essentially, find them in nature. If you will you can find them in a row consortia. But then if I'm seeing them face to face, it means that I'm their hostage. Raja? Where it was right in Toronto. We've not disclosed the place candidate. It wasn't by the way that it is nicknamed like Aleka nutty. Because of course, those Canadian extremists you think of hotheaded, he's also nice, and you know, he's a real Canadian. He's a real Canadian. He uses his hands free gadget when he's talking on his cell phone and he's driving salon. A law-abiding stumps in society. Stabbing people in the heart. Look. Yeah. I know you were journalists. It's it's an amazing amazing amazing podcast. And I know that this is the sort of thing that everyone kind of like, you know, intellectually would jump right out. But like when the idea started circulating, you serve moment in which you said like, I don't want to be in the space. I don't wanna like immerse myself in this world of these people just to creepy. I mean that is my world. This is I've been on this beat now for almost five years. And this is what I do. I explain ISIS to the larger public. I happen to find it interesting. I mean, I've been able to sort of intellectualize it enough. I have a number of techniques I use to not absorb the horrific things. They do. I I no longer watch their videos from beginning to end, there's only so many beheadings that you know, human being can watch them. I've had to watch some. I've never watched them. I should probably do should I as a journalist. Is it my job to I don't know that you need to if you're not covering it? So I've come up with a number. Of techniques to to essentially Nazi those things. And then and then I'm focusing on this which is trying to analyze them trying to understand them and trying to go as deeply as I can in that. And and in fact, their world is actually quite complicated. We think of it as unit dimensional just just criminals, it's a lot more than that. There's a lot of doctrine and ideology that goes with it. There's a lot of justification for their acts, and and as an exercise and trying to understand something that is so different from where I'm at. I find that interesting, and I find it valuable because I think that this is a group that by now, you know, when we publish caliphate. The best numbers we had was that the warranty had cost the US billions of dollars. Actually, there was a report that came out soon after we published that said it's in the trillions. Now, this is one of the most costly efforts that the United States has undertaken our country, and and yet we the the vast. Majority of people don't really understand who these people are. So what does it look like to be an ISIS reporter, could you give us sort of from the, you know, going on apps to like digging through ISIS trash shirt, what is the range? So my, you know, my my day to day existence is consumed with basically one central question, which is how can I get as closely as I can to these people without myself getting hard, right? And so one way is to interview their members in jail. This is a recent phenomenon. This is since since their territory in Iraq and Syria has started to crumble that there have been large numbers of ISIS prisoners, both in Syria and Iraq and also jails in in Europe, North America. That's one way. The second thing is to actually go to the territory that they once controlled back when they were still holding it you could go right up to the front lines the frontlines. I I lived in Africa for seven years and covered civil wars and and conflict there. And the difference with the ISIS war is unlike the conflicts, I covered in Africa. The the frontline was very well demarcated, you you knew exactly where you know, the the ISIS territory begins here, the coalition controlled territory begins there, which gives you some sense of safety that you can you can approach this Luminol, you know, this this border area, and in that border area, you often found people that had just escaped from from ISIS control, and those are sort of primary sources who have just just, you know, in the days previously in counter, these people. So that's another way to report on it. The most interesting way, I think to report on them is through their internal documents. And this is in fact, the hardest way when the territories being ruled back when coalition forces are going in and taking building by building ISIS, Michael Qaeda, before it seems to have this unbelievable capacity to amass paperwork receipts financial reports budgetary projections, internal memos. Letters from commanders. They try sometimes to burn some of it. So, you know, you would find certain areas where they had set fire to the buildings, and then you can assume that it was something quite important, but for much of it either they don't have time to destroy it. Or they don't think that it's that important and interestingly enough intelligence agencies don't seem to be that interested in it because I would I would always come after the intelligence agencies had already gone through and you would find that they had picked through some of it. But they would leave a lot of it behind and with the permission of Iraqi forces. We were allowed to pick up this material and that for me has become sort of the greatest window because that is them. That is them speaking on their own terms. It's a is is HR. It's like ISIS HR. Right. It's it's like it's like if I went into any of your houses and found your diary or found your personal correspondence or federal Bank statement organizationally. What is it that they value? What are they're kind of like corporate priorities. So so number one they act like a corporation, which is which is I think shocking to many of us still and that in a way that shouldn't be surprising. This is this is an organization that at its height controlled territory that was the size of Great Britain that that's ruled the population that was between nine and twelve million people and that had up to one hundred thousand members maybe more you can't run that kind of organization unless you have rules and metrics and procedures in place. So on the one hand, they're extremely top down. So you see you see all of these. I mean, among among the most frequent things that I would find would be permission slips from fighters who are in one unit, and who are asking permission to go a couple of miles to the left or to the right permission from my Amir to go to the hospital somebody who's wounded permission to go on vacation permission to go. See my wife, you know. So there's what it shows is that there's there's a top down. You're not just free. Inside the caliphate. You're you're you're responsible to some higher up. And there's a paper trail that that embodies, you know, whatever decisions involving your movement, you take of the Ashley incident governing. I mean is there any record that they're good at what they do. Or is it just a sort of makeshift terrace organization? That's. Goes along. They're very interested in governing. And it's a, and this is not unique to ISIS, Al Qaeda Al Qaeda did this long before. But what they're trying to create is on the one hand, it's a terrorist movement. They're trying to attack the west and anybody that they deemed to be to be an infidel. But the other thing they're trying to create a caliphate, which is their Muslim utopia this Muslim empire and that requires services and governing. And the surprising thing that I discovered in in Iraq is that the although they were reviled by I would say most of the population because of their brutality. They were popular on a couple of specific things they managed to do garbage collection better than the Iraqi state water distribution distribution electricity. These these were things that that are you know, that that had been annoyances, and and and grievances of the people living in that area for for really generations and somehow ISIS managed to do those things better. And they got a lot of points from the population for doing. So so I hope to never have ISIS know, who I am or that exist. Isis knows who you are. Right. How are you in? I mean when you're not on the frontlines, obviously. But like here near are you in danger? Are you scare you're gonna go through their trash one day and find your name written scrawled on something? That's like how are you? Right. I'm home alone. At this point in time. My husband was working full overnight shift. So he was leaving. He his shift started eleven pm. You didn't come home until six and. Live in an old house. Not quite a hundred years old, but an old house that's creaky, and I have two dogs. And and and I'm in the other thing is that I'm in a very quiet suburb with, you know, sizable yards, and and and a lot of space between houses and are at around twelve. Thirty AM my doorbell starts to ring. I mean, let me just say that nobody rings my doorbell even during the day may like the UPS man and freshdirect. That's it. You know? Like into who was witnesses once in you know, once in a blue moon, but that's it. You know, like nobody nobody comes here. And and the person is ringing in this very aggressive. You know, this is, you know, knock knock, and my dog goes crazy, and my I have a Rhodesian ridgeback who is oh, I love dogs too. And who's just so a student? So smart, you know, like, he he doesn't he doesn't bark when my husband comes home. He somehow knows it's my husband or an art car parks in the driveway. He somehow knows it's our car. But any anybody who is considered an intruder is he reacts with, you know, the growling and the barking, and I I was just getting ready to go to sleep. So I had just my night light on. And my first reaction was to turn off the night light. So that the person standing outside the house doesn't know which Rome, and because I was so I was so freaked out, you know, at this point thinking to myself like who in the world is this. You know, why somebody you know, calling? I didn't call my husband to see where he was at like, maybe he got locked out. He's like known at work, you know, like somebody's knocking knocking on the door. I'm like, yeah. Somebody's walking in the door. And and the FBI at this point. It comes to see me maybe twice and they had made clear to me. We've put you on. We have alerted your local police precinct. They know who you are. If you if you're ever, you know, if you ever feel, you know, unsafe don't hesitate to call. So I felt I mean, I I hesitate because it's it seems like such a big deal to call nine one one, you know, but I finally want him the hand had just this kind of crazy conversation with the dispatcher who clearly had no idea who, you know. Like, clearly, I was not on her list. You know, like, maybe it was on some other lists. Isis maybe the door on the disk batches like y. Community Kelly monkey and I cover ISIS of writ for the New York Times. And there's somebody knocking on my door and the FBI has come to CB several times. And I think at one point he says something like ma'am, do you think the F B I is threatening? You know ISIS. Just see the wheels turning on her head where she was like six your saying, no ice, and he's out your door. And it was like, ma'am. Have you been drinking tonight? Then she put me on hold for a second. And she came back on and her tone of changed. And I wonder if at that point they had like plugged in my address or something, and maybe something did come up, and she said, ma'am, we're looking into it. And then she came back on. And she said, ma'am, we've just found out. It's the water department. Basically there had been a water main break on my street, and the water department was going door to door to tell people that I don't know that they weren't gonna flush toilets. I still don't understand why in the world the municipality thought, it's a good idea to go like thirty knocking people's doors at twelve thirty in in the morning who would never have done this that ISIS because they wanted department works, really? One thing they're known for. No, exactly. And it was completely rational. Let me like like, obviously, if it's they're not going to be ringing the doorbell. You like it was just this very strange thing. That was had. It's freaky. The one thing about fascist movements. Is they are into order. They do they the one of the first things they do is clean up the trash, right? And there is something kind of. Beautiful about it. There's something like one can see why people including people who don't have fascist tendencies are drawn to that sense that we're gonna we're gonna make all the corners were swear everything. Right. Did you ever find it beautiful when you're in their presence like the sense of purpose? The purity of it, the look I mean, of course, I know the other side, so it's hard. It's hard to get completely wrapped up in it. But when you speak to their adherence and their followers. This is the thing that they talk about, you know, this is this is you know, that they brought order to a place like a rock that we're we're garbage collection has never been something that that, you know, anybody can brag about and one of the periods of time when they were when when they were ruling the Mozell area coincided with this this link the garbage strike that happened in Lebanon in Beirut. What would garbage was piling up everywhere? Sort of like, you sometimes see in Sicily, you know? And so they would do these videos where they would compare you know, the. Streets of Beirut, which are not that far away with the streets of Muslim, you know, and show how clean, you know. They had made it and doesn't sound like much to us because we're used to having our garbage picked up, but let me tell you when you live in a place where that doesn't happen. Oh my God. I do on the Upper West side of Manhattan. And yes. Children can play without being in filth. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And without the smell, you know, like the because these these become like cesspool of you know, of germs and grossness. It was a really big deal, you know, to people. So what are we doing wrong when when handling them when thinking about them when making policies to address them, sure? Look in areas where where we have dealt with reconstruction. And and I realized that probably that that that phase has passed but early years of Afghanistan early years of Iraq where the US went in and actually got into into the into the job of state building. I think one of the things that we got wrong is that we aimed for these very lofty complicated things girls education, you know, in in former Taliban strongholds of Afghanistan, I completely agree with that. Yes. Let's let's definitely less educate girls. But but on that front, you're dealing with ingrained encrusted difficult to deal with cultural moors about whether young women whether girls should be educated or not these are difficult things to handle. Everybody agrees that garbage collection is a good thing. Everybody agrees that having an electricity grid that doesn't sputter out every day. After a couple of hours of us is a good thing. And I think that what we did is that we went for these very things and didn't didn't address the very simple things. And and and those are not that hard to address if terrorist group is able to do it, you know, that's one thing. And I think that we have we have repeatedly misunderstood how our presence in these areas, even though sometimes like, I believe in Syria. Now, it's been necessary. However presence creates propaganda for these groups to to prosper airstrikes that end up inadvertently. It's always killing civilians is father for this group. You know, this is this is these are the images that they show. So it's Trump's right to get us out of Syria. If that happens, I think unfortunately in Syria, and this is this is based on all of the officials that I'm speaking to I think in in Syria. The intervention has really worked and it has worked with a very minimal cost. Just to the US. Basically, the the Obama doctrine was that it wouldn't be American forces that are doing that. That are doing the the invasion on the heavy lifting its local partner that is being supported by the US and by supported when I was in these areas, you never see American forces UC Kurdish forces, and they have a Samsung, tablet, and on this tablet. They have they have GPS pens of the buildings that they believe are off coupon by ISIS and honest, delight phone they're calling in the coordinates to their partners Americans were sitting in Baghdad or wherever who are calling in our strikes. Right. So just as a as an example in the in the four years of the intervention in in Syria. I think the US is lost four four soldiers. Maybe maybe five the currents have lost ten thousand ten thousand to four or five. Right. So it's been incredibly costly to them and not so costly to us. So caliphate was wildly successful and sort of took. From a behind the scenes journalists to an audio star has that major job harder. As more people know who you are. No, it's actually in in a strange way, it's made it easier because the per the people that I lose interviews to our people like Christiane Amanpour, you know, who are much more well known than I am. So, you know, literally, I was I, you know, I flew to Iraq one time to interview this young woman who claimed that she had been held by nicest member who was American, and I lost that interview to Christiane, and you know, how how can I possibly explain to this this young girl in her and her handlers that that that she's better off doing interview with with me at the New York Times, then with Cristiano look for, you know, so I think that I think that the successive caliphate has opened doors for me, you work another podcast. I'm not working on another podcast. Now, I'm thinking of another podcast. Now, we never planned it as you know. Something that would be season one season two, but I just tried my first foray into documentary filmmaking. So we have a project with coming out in the next couple of months, and that was a new medium for me. Podcasting was a new medium for me. And of course, writing is what I've always done and of the three I have to say, the par putt casting is is really rich in allowing up. I didn't I didn't think possible. I'm I'm often, I'm often frustrated when I'm doing, you know, a piece and there's a word limit as always and the stuff that ends up getting gutted, you know, from it is the very stuff that have sort of spent years trying to understand, and that becomes the MO, you know, it's to us Tarik. It's too in the weeds, and that's the stuff that gets lost. And that was the stuff that I felt that we were able to put in the podcast. So that's exciting for me. Great. Yeah. So before we let you ask a gentile question. Cui confirm because we've had it we've booked if you gentiles who ended up once we were interviewing them. To be Jewish and it's been a little problematic. So I want to confirm that you are one hundred definitely not Jewish. Definitely not due to issue. I was born in orthodox Christian. And it was later rebaptized as a Catholic here that ISIS. We Corey baptize as as a sentient grown up as a Catholic as a child. Okay. But in any event, you are a genuine gentile genuine, genuine gentile. So g g g g g so one of the things we do on the show is when we have a genuine gentile or even turned out, some imposter gentiles who were who were Jewish. We allow them a question of the week because we are a panel of Jewish experts. Is there anything about Jews Judaism Jewish culture Jewish history? Anything at all that you've always wondered about it's a safe space. You can ask anything we don't take offence. What do you want to know? So so a couple, you know, not too long ago on Yom Kippur. I sent a what's up message to to a dear friend of mine who happens to be to be Jewish. I wanted to send her agreeing on Yom Kippur, and I said happy young picky for. And I have since learned that that's not the right way to address someone. Can you explain to me why the right way this sentiment is very sweet that you knew a friend was observing us an important day. You said happy like we would say I think you could say in the high holiday season, you could go with a happy new year. Happy new year, which is which is easy for young. The problem is if you assume that they're fasting. You could say hope you're having an easy fast. But what if they're not fasting? I mean is there is there a young composer here? The things you'll often reduce it each other. Right. Happy new year to of I and he reaches out rate. Rush on as a week before you a week before Yom Kippur. Have an easy fast, which always strikes a many of us as weird because the point is the fastest supposed to be somewhat hard. But people say having easy fast or have a meaningful fast. Have a meaningful have a meaningful. I had the meaningful. Young Kabaeva meaningful yucca, poor meaningful Yom Kippur meaningful yunky for that. Because it's a moment of reflection. Even if they're not fully fasting. You haven't made them feel weird about that? But tells me that you know, that this is like a big like a weird day that it's like a it's a holy day. But not a holiday like, it's it's not a happy day. Right. The things I'm gonna go with with happy. I think you did exactly the right to look because we're KamAz Jews. Of course, we have narrow cease about everything. And so we've made this into this terrible day. But like actually happy day, Jewish theology. It's a super happy day the horrible day of judgment is Russia. Sean, right. That's when God opens the books of life and starts making the decisions by you. And keep war Yoko vice closes like the citizens, and you just celebrate the kind of the fast. It's supposed to be hard. It's not supposed to be torment. It's supposed to be cleanse. It's supposed to be the sort of moment in which we make peace or the possibility that one day this year will die, and we're all together, we're all dress, and basically shrouds in kind of just beautiful what I want to know is you've since learnt you say you've since learned that this was not the right thing to say, what's your friend a bit dick about she was very nice about it. But she educated me on it. And and the thing is I then realized I have said happy report. Yeah. I'm just saying I think your friend is probably a lovely person. But I don't think it's cool that she gave you even the most gentlest of grief about it. Because it's perfectly okay thing to say to someone right? It's always the thought that count. I mean, you know, what it's like we talk about people who say merry Christmas. It's fine for people say merry Christmas to us there, wishing us Shereen us. And if you if you make people feel bad in any small way, I think that's kind of on you totally feel bad. I it was in the in the in under the umbrella of trying to teach me something about her culture that I didn't know trying to educate you, right? And I and I appreciate that. You know? So okay. Yeah. So you got three answers three Jews three answer. So. Poor happy new year. America have a meaningful. Yom Kippur have an easy fast. All those we think all there's good. And if she gives you any I mean, if anyone ever does give you problems about any of those tell them to talk to us to Jews. Exactly, exactly Machi. Thank you for being here. You can listen the caliphate on itunes or wherever you get your podcast, and you could read Rick Mears writing. Excellent reporting in the New York Times. Thank you. Thank you. Guys. I have a very good reason to be smooth in the new year and his name is David Walter Oppenheimer when you have a three month old holy cow. He's four months now when you have a four-month-old you can't be scratchy. Now, you might have your own reasons for not wanting to be scratch. You may have a New Year's resolution about saving money. And so you wanna go to harrys and save one hundred dollars for a year of shaving you might want to be better groomed. You might want the shaving company the shaving products that one the Esquire two thousand eighteen minutes grooming award. There's so many good reasons to go Harry's in two thousand nineteen Harry's founders were tired of razors. They're overpriced over designed. They wanted to give you replacement cartridges just about two dollars each. They wanted to give you one hundred percent quality guarantee. So listen get a thirteen dollars value trial set that comes with everything you need for a close, comfortable shave. That's the Ergen a-m-a-c handle the five lead razor with lubricating strip rich, lathering shave gel travel blade cover and listeners of my show. Can redeem that trial set at harrys dot com slash unorthodox. So whatever your reason for. Being smooth in the new year. Make sure a good harrys dot com slash on orthodox. Redeem your offer let them know that unorthodox sent you and you help support the show. Hey, J crew a bunch of lives coming up the most important one to know about if you are from Washington or Maryland or for Jinya or you just like to drive please know about the show at Washington. Hebrew, congregation. This is co sponsored by the association of reform Jewish educators, Representative elect Katie porter. One of the blue democratic women who helped flip Orange County from red to blue. She's already been seeded. She's been nog. Yeah. She's a new congresswoman she is maybe the first ever single mother of young children to serve in congress, and she will be gentile of the week in Washington. Hebrew, congregation are Jew of the week will be former unorthodox guest of food writer food historian, Michael Twitty. This is going to be a really amazing fell hundreds of tickets have gone already. But they're still some there left, and it's a free show to go to Washington Hebrew congregations website. You can find out more about their reserve your tickets and come party with us in the nation's capital January fifteenth. At seven thirty pm at seven thirty pm on the fifteenth now brand new show announcing that you've never heard about this show before. Adopt. Shallow in Los Angeles congregation. Adat Shalom we're going to be doing Cobb. Lot about followed by live show on Friday, February first the guest list is still in flux, still working on some awesome, amazing guest for that one. But we're going to be in sunny, sunny, sunny, LA, Deb, your, first dot Salone. And then the next day Saturday second will be the strong JC. I have been corrected multiple times. It's not strew the strong Jewish community center doing joint show with Dan savage, now, listen people's we need your sexy time questions, remember savage, a sex romance. Love relationship expert, rights savage love. He does the podcast savage love cast, which you should be listening to either Email us the questions you can Email them to north tablet, MAG dot com. We will anonymous your names, you can also call it in disguise your voice. However you like nine one four five seven zero four eight six nine. And Dan savage will answer your questions. So see you Saturday February second at the strong JC. You can get those tickets by going to their website. Earlier we talked a little bit about my spectacular meet up into Vive with our world's greatest fans in the promised land. And so here's a little taste of what that magical oughta infused evening was like. All right. Hannah on them. So you let birthright trip that as a result had how many people make so far just one, but I'm gonna have another participant slash friend make this summer, and he's gonna do prince bar and joined the army afterwards. So to say, you were really good. I tried really. So give us give us those listening at home. Give us give us a sales pitch. Spiel why should we come here to this fair country of I'm it is the only place in the world for Jews to just be Jewish and to be happy and not have to worry about being Jewish. You could sit down at a bar and a really good chance of meeting. Someone who is of the same religion as you are. And when your dating you just don't have to worry about having that as part of your list of things check off. And when you birthright, you are seeing things you may be learned about when you going to your school growing up, and you are seeing stories happened. And I was history major when I was an undergrad, and I studied Jewish history as well. And so I was seeing the places where the things happened, and I recommend everyone to birthright and everyone to have this amazing ten day -xperience and who knows? Could have a whole life that happens after it and changes your life direction. It's amazing. I also noticed that you know, you've been here for a while. Now you've made yourself when you order drink. I notice you ordered the correct drink. What what what is it the drinking right now? Arken lemon. Oh, it is delicious N delicious delicious. That's how you describe it. The drink of the free and the brave exactly it doesn't make sense because it's liquorice and lemonade and mint, but tastes so good. Jerod, Vermont this is a little bit different. Whether it was yeah. I would say so I think in Vermont right now, it's I don't know celsius. But I think unfair in height level. It's I saw it was minus nine this morning. So pretty painful, I would say and otherwise here in Tel Aviv right now, get sixty degrees Fahrenheit, sixty one degrees here. So I'm joying every single moment here right now as opposed to remind. Amazing. Hello. Hi, tell us about your life here in this country. My name's Josh from South Africa. I've lived here for this was ten years. I thought it new job as it data scientists, and I'm living the dream. Hello. Sorry. I'm gonna come around. Oh, I'm sorry. Hi. Well realize I'm the tool guide from the superstition episodes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's nice to meet you in past. Buscher rather than just over the radio. Well, it's really Skylab. She was the. Okay. Do I love? Really funny because a friend of mine from Panama coming to visit me January and author. I told her all about that. Like you have to take me there. So now, I have to go so really might be time lucky. You sir are local. Hi, I'm Erin cats. I live in beta mesh and work in Tel Aviv and your four I have four little kids between age of zero and six you're you're here for the for the long haul. That's why I'm here. Leo. It's Thursday night. And we have guests for Shabbat. And I am at a bar in television. Like, I'm just gonna load up before before. Penn Devonian star, exactly. That was just a little smidge a little a little appetizer show a little midge a little midge of Leo with the unorthodox Mazel having Tel-Aviv meet up in December twenty eighteen. Dell day. One extraordinary letter this week. I think deserves our attention. Dear unorthodox, I loved the interview with the wonderful laya of forced her in talking about some of the rabbis in her community used the threat of removing the hush. Gotcha. Kosher certification from the restaurants, where she was going to perform you made the assumption that it addition to being morally reprehensible such a move would be a misapplication of caution. While I doubt that the rabbis in question. Employ such a tactic often, I actually fully support religious authorities trying to broaden our understanding of Khatri from being just about the ingredients in the kitchen to considering the broader context from the conditions of the animals being raised for slaughter as the ethical cautious movement does to the conditions of the workers in restaurants. And yes, in theory, even extending to the types of events the restaurant hosts, I suggest you take up this subject in the coming year. All the best rabbi Benjamin barrer. So he saying wait a second. Yes. It seems to bother us when when homophobic rabbis invoked cauti- route to say that that an. Establishment can't host given event. But what about the fact that that progressive forces want to invoke cautious to say, we should worry about more than just how the the neck is slashed in the animal and talk about workers rights and things. I that's an interesting point. I'm a hundred percent without by bear. In fact, I think you should be really extended to all kinds of things like I don't know why imagining the godfather to serve his in this restaurant is very there's no longer koshen. No what about like, fair coldness carpaccio. No cashew. It's for you. No, I think the idea of like conditions of the workers in restaurants. Like, that's really really interesting. If you're under paying your back of the house staff, your kitchen staff that you shouldn't. I mean, I like that idea. It does. However, I mean, I'm very torn by this because on the one hand sure I'd be I might be willing to make that trade where some like super orthodox establishments the cautious is used to keep it gay free. But then if lots of other more modern kosher establishment said we're gonna pay fifteen dollar an hour wages and ensure the animals were humanely treat like all in all you might get a net gain in goodness in the world. I could I could work with that sort of, you know, the flourishing of many different little fiefdoms. The problem is I kind of went kosher places to be a place where we all were Jews of different kinds siege. I don't want like the progressive kosher barbecue joint, and the you know, Haredi that also sort of exists based on who which certification you have who who's doing your supervision. It's already so incredibly minted in bifurcated. So maybe that will be a good way. To being together. It's like, listen, we're going to take everyone's fucked up concerns everything you possibly care about vegan. Gluten free animal cruelty that service not enough ice in your soda anything. Carefree refill. We're going to be one super Huska. It's going to basically be like the avengers. Like, you had all the separate superhero. This is one big franchise, social, captain, kosher. Anyway, J crew, let us know what you think you can call us at nine one four five seven zero four eight six nine or you can write to us at unorthodox tablet. Mag dot com muscle tops. Leo, heavy a model tough look a Maju somewhat observant Jew. But I believe in Saint Nick this week to Nick foles and Philadelphia Eagles fly goes fly. Baby. Literally don't understand anything. You just said making all of my relatives from west mount airy, Roxborough bucks county. So so happy listen the few saw that missed field goal. And you don't believe in. God. I don't know what's wrong with you. Stephanie ninety or. Ends Kristen and Andrew Gaffey welcomed a baby girl last week Hannah Yaffe I'm so excited for them. And I can't wait to meet her at I would like to give my mazal tov this week to a wonderful listener who called in to the listener line. And and she's kind of went rogue because we say that our listener line is for letters to us questions things like that. But she just kind of said I have a model of this week. And well, it was a great one have a listen. Hey, gang. This is Caroline singer. And I wanted to wish him AGA posted to people one my brother-in-law Michael singer who had emergency surgery in new castle UK two weeks ago, and is now out of the hospital in rehab, and we'll be flying back to the United States in about a week. And also to wrote in the girl who was hospitalized and is also now out of the hospital, and we have we are happy to see them on the men and hope that you'll join me in wishing them Selena. Thanks bye. Unorthodox is brought to you by tablet magazine on the web at tablet, MAG dot com. You can ask for a newsletter by writing to unorthodox tablet, MAG dot com. Just put newsletter in the subject line. We often come to you live redoing it soon. L A and Seattle baby. To book us or to advertise with us, Email producer cross and j cross cross with a K at tablet, MAG dot com. If you want north docks swag, like, you know, coffee, cosies or t shirts or or could ease. The hoodies are very popular or onesies for your baby. Go to Viet dot L Y slash unearth. Oh to follow us on Instagram at unorthodox podcast on Twitter at unorthodox underscore pod. Joined the Facebook group our show is produced by Josh cross shirt solution and no eleven and our editors evil. Our artwork is by Astra worker. Our social media internists are Abrahams, and our vacation time wonder intern is Jillian forced our theme music is by Gholam or online at golden rockstar calm and did one of the most rocking wedding band formed as I've ever seen. They do weddings, not mostly, weddings. But. Will do them if you're in need of wedding mend. You want to check out Gholam our mailbox scene is by Steve Martin rabbinic supervision by Rabbi Jonathan Maltman of coal Shalom in Rockville, Maryland UAE, if you have to ask you've never heard him, a divine Torah, and we come to you from Argo studios, which we think voted for Nancy Pelosi for speaker of the house Shalom friends. Panoply.