18 Episode results for "Stephen Hayes"

Steven Hayes

The Michael Berry Show

19:37 min | 3 months ago

Steven Hayes

"I'm Patrick Carroll Chief Adriana Cortes and we're the host of Red Pill America a new storytelling podcast red build. America's not another talk show covering the day's news. We are all about telling stories stories Hollywood doesn't want you to hear stories. The media mocks stories about everyday Americans. If the elites ignore, you could think of red build America as audio documentaries and we promise only one thing the truth visit the iheartradio APP right now to listen to Redfield America. Folks I understand that talk of tax policy is not sexy it's not thrilling. It's not something. A lot of people can can sink their teeth into but tax policy drives or stifles innovation entrepreneurism economic growth. How much money we have how much money we make what kind of businesses we have all of this is directly linked to tax policy, and yet we spend too little time talking about it. We're going to do our part to fix that today. Our guest is Stephen Hayes is the president of Americans for fair taxation. You can find them fair tax dot org. We're going to talk about his organization, but let's dive right into the question that if someone's going to take away something from this conversation. Is. It true that Joe Biden's tax policy Steven Hayes is it true that his tax policy would raise taxes on eighty two percent of Americans and how does that happen? Well. It's it isn't true if you listen to his rhetoric. But if you listen to what he's actually proposing and again he's so typical of. Politicians really in general but what he's doing he's he's he is doing effectively soundbites. and his sound soundbites are. Here is something that I'm going to address. I'M GONNA. Make this fairer. That's the whole. Of everything he's saying. You know he starts off by saying I'm going to raise your taxes. Comma if you make over four, hundred, thousand a year. That's the way he starts off. In in effect what he's saying is. I'M GONNA raise taxes, and I'm telling you. It's GONNA be over four, hundred thousand. We all know from experience that that four hundred thousand is a talking point and that's the reality is that he's going to raise taxes. He's going to have to raise taxes on everybody if he looks to fund even a tiny portion. Of the spending that he's promised I mean come Outta here. For example, his vice-president headed incredibly expensive guaranteed annual income bill. She introduced you've all of the environmentalists that want to do all of these environmental great things which are going to cost us immense amounts of money. They want to shut down factories every factory job. The multiplier effect means that we lose about seven hundred and forty four other jobs. So you've got a situation where they are doing the normal thing. They're saying we're only going to raise taxes on the wealthy but if you look at all of the things, he's proposing the net effect is going to be attacks in Greece on everybody and it's only gonNA. Change and this is what really worries me the most I go. Is. If they subscribe to the modern monetary theory. Which says, deficits don't matter that debt doesn't matter and the only purpose of taxes is simply to curb inflation. Now, that's the theory. It's a call it modern it's been around since the early nineteen hundreds. That keynes used when he was proposing to Roosevelt in the thirties to do deficit spending. That's a concept that really says, taxes don't matter. So the reason I put that caveat on. Is that that would be insane for him to say because almost all of America. Doesn't buy into the idea you can just spend with no no consequences. However, that's his idea. You know. The curbing inflation. You you you through that in at the end, but the idea that tax increases would curb inflation. I wonder if people really understand what he's saying there, that's the equivalent of saying look. Everybody's getting to rich we we've got too much money flowing. So what we're GONNA do is force everybody to close four days a week, and that way people won't be as rich and so poor people won't see the disparity between themselves and the doers I mean that that is basically harnessing are hampering economic growth. But using euphemisms to describe it and when people wake up and realize what's happening. That's the consequence of this policy. It's not a bug in the system it's a design in the system. Yes. Yes, and and Michael. That is what they're hoping I really believe this because I've read some of the books written on modern monetary theory by some of the quote. Intellectuals. They really do they spend like seventy Kelton, who was an adviser to Biden at one point and other leading Democrats wrote a book about the deficit Miss. She called it in the first half was trying to establish why From an economic point of view, it could make sense and she made some good points like Japan has got three hundred percent ratio of debt to GDP and they're and they have actually deflation inflation and she went on and on. And then the other half was all the ways that she would take this endless flow of money and spend it. And she basically was proposing. All of the things that he wants to do all the infrastructure, all of the green energy, all those things would be done, but she wanted to make sure and it was almost like this guaranteed annual income. That a substantial part. Of the population became dependent on government for their base support. And by doing that, she would ensure that her party and her part of the party. He got reelected every time. So I think it's even more insidious because the plan behind this is to say flowery words and to talk about how we're only gonNA do this and seeing of demand for goods with the rich whereas we know that if you cut demand. You cost jobs all the way down the line if you if you take it so that that person making, let's just say they keep it at four, hundred thousand for the first week. That spending that person can do is going to be reduced substantially. There are predictions said in some of the states. California Illinois New York. That the actual rate will be over sixty two percent of the person's income. So you've got a situation where you're got to look at the reality. and. The reality is what you said the money is in the middle class, the money's not at the top what are the top people going to do? They're GONNA set their incomes up in such a way that they have less income unless tax they're gonNA do something like Larry Ellison did it Oracle? You know he has a huge line of credit. SECURED BY HIS STOCK And he uses that. Buying a credit to buy his yachts to buy his. Ferraris or whatever it is he buys his big houses. And he just pays a tiny amount of interest. I don't even know what it is now, but I think it's under two percent for the the money but he avoid selling the stock and paying capital gains. And huge amount of tax because he has such a low basis. And that's just what the wealthy can do. That's not something that almost the rest of the population could even consider. Well. What you have is the strategic avoidance of liquidity events. In order in order to avoid taxes, which means that the traditional economic activity. It is being stifled a whole with us for just we're talking to Stephen Hayes about taxation. He's with Americans for fair taxation. You can find them online at fair tax dot org more of our conversation with him about Joe, Biden's tax plan coming up. A quick reminder you can get your Michael Berry show merchandise gear you name it. At Michael Berry show dot com click on t shirts, mugs, pins, bumperstickers all sorts of fun stuff ten percent goes to camp hope our residential Treatment Center for veterans with PTSD The other ninety percent of profits will be donated. Or given or earned by Chad Nakanishi and Ramon Bliss. It's our way of creating kind of a virtual tip jar for those two. So thanks for everything you buy on there goes to a great 'cause Steven Hayes is our guest. He is the president of Americans for fair taxation and you know I I gotTa Tell Ya. If, if we focused in this election in casting our votes on the basis of things like tax policy, which really matters as opposed to things like well, well, I don't like woody tweets are he's nice. The other one's not nice. These the things that matter our tax policy the things that matter are are we going to war or are we getting out of forever wars? The these are the sorts of things that are going to affect you and your life there they matter and yet there is so little conversation about them, which is a nice way of patting ourselves on the back for being such a serious and important show Ramon. That's what this. Steven Hayes is our guest is Stephen Talk about the INS and outs of the Biden tax policy as you understand it, and if you would bring that home to people in terms of what industry somebody might be in or what bracket they might be in and what those numbers are going to start to look like. Well the first thing in order to pay taxes, you gotTa have a job. That's always the thing that's omitted from a lot of these conversations because. Somehow or other. The planners DC are so insulated from the real world that they assume that anything that they put into a spreadsheet. and run through their computers whatever it says is what's going to happen. I mean. I. Was familiar back in the eighties with. The final eighty, six reform act and I remember talking to some senators who said that they were exhausted the night before they got the final. Bill agreed to. They were exhausted and they gave their Staff who was advising them. And they were both Democrat and Republican staff members the job of looking to see how much money would be raised if they put a hundred percent tax on anyone making more than two, hundred and fifty thousand. And they did this as a joke. But he said nobody laughed. And then the next morning these guys came in they'd been up all night and they were very proud to say that this. Tax One hundred percent tax was going to raise some like fifty million, a hundred million billion I. don't remember what the number was and and. They thought the senators that a joke was being played on them and they realize these people were serious. They thought that because the computer said, it would raise this much money that people who were making over two hundred and fifty thousand. A year would just continue to work at the same rate and expose their income to a hundred percent confiscation. They. That's the first thing that we have to look at when we say what is Biden's tax plan we have to look at who is creating the tax plan. So number one, they're assuming that their economic models which are only looking at here's how much taxes being paid today. And if we increase the rate. One percent by percent ten percent whatever. We're going to increase revenues by whatever that percentage is based on total income. I mean that's the way they do their calculations i. I have to tell you Michael. I've sat there. With people who Joint Economic Committee and looked at how they think these things through. So. This is not exaggerate. This is the way they look at it. So they look at it and they ignore the fact. That if they increase the corporate tax. BACK UP WHICH BIDEN PROPOSES? That it's going to make our companies less competitive. What does that mean? That means that they can sell us? That means that when they're competing with foreign producers for the same market, let's say in the US they're at a disadvantage. What does that end up being that means they produce less if they stay in business and that means that people who were employed many will lose jobs. And it also means that for every job. That is lost. In the manufacturing area. You're talking about according to the Economic Policy Institute. Around. Seventy. Thousand Jobs. Manufacturing to seven hundred, seven, thousand, four hundred jobs in other areas. Why? Because of all the income created when the manufacturer buys products and of all the money spent by the people working. So this is all ignored. So my first real concern. With Biden's tax policy and even trump says you've got to look at the overall impact. Now when you're cutting taxes, which is what trump has consistently tried to do. You're obviously not decreasing economic activity. You're increasing the ability for economic activity. But as we talked about This whole conversation. Of Biden's taxes and Biden doing this. It's simply a waste of time if we had a sane tax system, for example. If. We went to the fair tax, which is a national retail sales tax. On new goods and retail services Eliminating Collecting the payroll tax, you pay social security and Medicare through the sales tax eliminating the income personal and corporate tax. And eliminating estate and gift tax. Now. What you have. IS A. Rate. And Right now it's twenty three percent. That is collected every time you make a retail purchase. You get hundred percent of your money. And then you pay your taxes when you go do it. Now, what happens like for one thing Michael you and I would not be talking about if we were on the show today. About the Biden tax. Plan. But we would be talking about what Biden is going to do on things that matter just like you talked about before what's he gonNa do to make us safer. Is he going to get us into war? All the stuff about taxes is frankly. A distraction and the truth is that if we had a scene tax system. We would not have a system where every two years. People in business and in life have to wonder. If the taxes are going to be changed to the point that they're planning. is going to be ineffective. I mean you've worked in the business world your wife's worked in the business world and we all know that most plans are not one or two year plans in order to do something in the business, you've gotta make plans that go into the future. What would this whole tax thing? Nobody knows how the plan because it can make such an impact? On the net to you based on what you can deduct what your percentage of tax rate is. You what's insane? What what when you look at The hallmarks of the American economy and the reasons for this nation's unprecedented. Success comparatively, which created incredible prosperity, which we've shared with the world. It's. Amazing. But the big part of that as you know as a former tax lawyer and as a guy that studies tax policy. Is Consistency certainty reliability people plan but you know the thing that I think you were you were alluding to earlier is you can't create tax policy in a vacuum. You can't simply sit in a room and say, well, if we raise the tax this amount, we collect this amount because you're removing the human element, we know that you can make policy. But what you can't know how people are going to react and people don't willingly pay more in taxes. So they find it. I was thinking when you were talking earlier Stephen Momma started wandering to a word. I haven't heard in decades tax shelter. You know when I when I was a baby lawyer tax shelters was a big term and in this economy in in the trump tax plan, you haven't needed tax shelters to the expected that that people did in the past and that's a great thing and we would go back to a world where people have to hide their income and alter their behaviors because they're. They're not simply going to expose themselves in their capital to risk. If they can't keep a greater percentage of what they get because you lose all of it, but you don't get to keep all of it. Unfortunately I am out of time, we would love to have you back. He's Stephen Hayes of the Americans for fair taxation online at fair tax dot Org He has forgotten more about this than Joe, Biden or his advisors will ever know and we'd love to talk to him. Thank you. Thank you Michael.

Joe Biden Michael Berry Stephen Hayes America Steven Hayes president Economic Policy Institute Patrick Carroll Ramon Bliss Hollywood Redfield America Red Pill America Japan Larry Ellison vice-president PTSD
754: Why Craving Pain Is Human

The Art of Charm

1:22:00 hr | 1 year ago

754: Why Craving Pain Is Human

"If you've been on the fence about taking charm program, or you just can't make it out to LA. Will we have exciting news for you? Because we offer online group coaching. It's called core confidence. And here's one of our recent graduates experience. My name's Charles. I do court off it's in twenty eighteen with your charm and absolutely set my life on a totally different course, I will do it again in a heartbeat before confidence. I knew that conversations could be more meaningful. And I knew that I could connect with people in a deeper way. I didn't really know how it turns out that confidence is not something you feel. It's not something that you think about it something that you have to do is was life change for me, the structure of the class and the way Mike Okocha's are really really important is a community is a community of guys just like you who are trying to develop their confidence. This is unbelievable. If you're on the fence, I think you should jump. Good luck. I love the core confidence. Classes and one of my favorite thing is being able to meet all these guys answer their questions and get involved seeing their progress and their excitement is so much fun. That's right sign up record confidence. And finally, get the skills you need the emotional intelligence necessary to succeed you could sign up at the art of charm dot com slash core. That C O R E. We'll see there. Welcome back to the charm pack out some Johnny, and I AJ thank you for joining us on this show where we bring you actionable tips and strategies on how to connect socially boost your confidence and navigate the nuances. A social dynamics were navigating relationships this month and today, we're going to play an interview we recorded a little while back in December with our good friend, Stephen Hayes who teaches psychology at the university of Reno if you're not familiar with them. We had a talk about his clinical work, which is called acceptance and commitment therapy or act for short and act is all about well, what you would expect accepting life and committing to the things you value. Most it goes much deeper than that, though, we unpacked a lot of it in seven twenty nine Salva. Steam is bullshit and act is something we use our courses here at the art of charm. So this month we wanted to expand the idea of accepting and committing because navigating through your life and our relationships is. Challenging no matter who you are. So we're going to play this interview in a moment. But before we do we have a few announcements if you're new to the show this podcast is based on our live in person training programs. We've been running for over a decade right here in sunny, Hollywood, California. And we also have some really great courses online. If you happen to be stuck in the snow in Stockholm. If you wanna learn more about these world class boot camp programs or online training, check us out at the art of charm dot com and next week. We got a fantastic interview with a friend of ours. David Romanelli, he came by the studio to talk to us about navigating Latian ships with the Ehlers our communities. We're still seeing some great questions rolling in our mailbox for our monthly QNA. We love them. And we love you to send more their great questions. And if you got one for us, it's simple to share. Yeah. Just go to the charm dot com slash questions or Email us at questions at the charm dot com. You can always find us on social even on instant. Graham, I'm at AJ harbinger. And Janis there two at AO. See, johnny. Okay. We have a lot to get through. So let's get started. We are bringing back. Dr Steven Hayes, one of the co founders of acceptance and commitment therapy or act for short. You're probably gonna hear us use that acronym a lot today. And you've in developing in researching this for several decades now, so there's obviously a lot of ground. We're gonna cover and this is one of the foundations of everything that we do at the bootcamp air in Los Angeles. And I know Johnny has been a huge fan of yours for a number of years. And it's fun to me. Now thinking about the way the course has been designed in the way that we've been working with our clients to see all of the overlap, and what you've been researching for decades now to get our listeners up to speed on exactly what act is about. You have a great metaphor that we love here. AO c can you briefly tell our listeners about the bus driver? I know biz metaphor is really been impactful for being Johnny and a love for you to share their audience. Sure. Sure, it's been kind of a model for how we can ring are skills to move on our live in the right direction and the bus driver metaphors to think of yourself as like the driver of a bus where the bus stops. Passengers get on you don't really get to pick who the passengers are whether or not they took a bath. What they're wearing. It looked like how old there they come on. And once they're on there, you get to put what's on front of the bus whereas going, but as you drive along and turns out, these passengers have attitudes have opinions, and they start telling you really need to go over there. You really need to go over there. And if you don't something bad's going to happen often the thing that bad happened is they've threatened, and they're gonna make you see them they'll come up and stand right next to you. And this is kind of like the situation that we're in was we collect our thoughts. Feelings memories in bodily sensations history. And we bring to the moment. We're sitting there, and I'm in charge of our life but easily turn over the drive into somebody else. Like the passenger maybe says. You might fail to or the one that reminds you of the possibility of anxiety or fear or sadness or and so I'll care won't go there. Like, I won't open up and move towards that relationship because after all gonna feel vulnerable, and I might be betrayed and I was betrayed in the past. And so I'll make sure I had the pathway that leads toward superficial relationships. And then turns out you're not taking that bus where you would want it to go you you wouldn't have put that on the front of your bus. This bus is going towards superficial relationships feel free to get on. That's probably not the way you want to do it. And so we use it in our trainings in therapy work. We do is kind of a Christmas tree Madam for that. You can hang the whole of act in the psychological flexibility model, which is looking at the six processes, the most lead us towards inflexible and. Lives or flipped around the sixth can move assed or Canalis wanna live, and they're all inside this this bus driver metaphor. And maybe we can as we talk about some of these concepts. I'll come back to it. And we'll hang the the ornaments on that. I love the bus driver because to be a bus driver to get paid as the bus driver. You gotta do two things the door has to be unlocked in you, gotta make it to the destination. That's right. If you're locking out people you're going to lose your job. If you're not hitting the destination you're gonna lose your job. So that's life. We are going to have to keep those doors open. And sometimes there's going to be unsavory characters. I know Johnny ni- tried to avoid the bus in L A. Sometimes there's gotta be some people that were excited to take the destination, but the doors unlocked, and the destination is in front of us. And we gotta get there. When I present this metaphor to clients, and I say, but if your life's kind of like that what he can do about it almost always the first thing they say, well, I'm going to stop the bus and throw the passengers off that I don't like, well, let's see. Well, you notice the first thing you had to stop bus. Have you done that? And sure enough to have put their life on hold by the fight of war within and then the next thing and by the way that the passengers leave when you grabbed him and threw him out that the become bigger smaller more than less important. Did you eliminate come from their life? Everybody says they got bigger than more central and they didn't leave anyway. So you put yourself into this you abandon your proper role as the driver. And instead you went to into this. You know, kind of. The the enforcers only have passengers you like. Well, that's going to put your life on hold. And it's going to take him into a struggle that you're gonna lose. If you wanna play it that way, a fine. But at some point you have to look at that and say, maybe this is not working in that that's an increasingly critical moment. And it's it's your ally. Actually, 'cause there is a thing that could work it back in the driver's seat. But your hands on the wheel start that engine. You know, what's on the front? You put it there and head towards that destination with all of your passengers coming along with you, some of the things they say could even be helpful. Now watch out there's a tree that might be helpful don't go there you need to go there. Not so helpful right? So it. We we for very small gains that up to me and not being gains with turned driving over to our programming at our own at the cost of our belittle of the Canalis of and that idea of except the keep the commitment keep moving when we don't come from a place of acceptance we're battling. And we have no commitment to things you're standstill, and it's a losing battle. The commitment part is if you had a metaphor of how some the destination. We're going to go from LA to San Francisco. Oh, then north of more important than south. But you know, the freeway might be jammed up. Maybe you have to go easterner to go north. Okay. There's some flexibility there, you can kind of move around that so commitment is building these larger and larger patterns and habits of heading in the direction that you choose. What you want your life to be about you want your journey to reflect it's not a commitment necessarily to an outcome. It's your responsibility to driverless said they had north of headed toward San Francisco from where we are right now. But who knows I mean, maybe the big earthquake will hit aren't you sitting on a fall fighter? I think you are reminding. Stories out. Exactly, maybe you're that single best breakdown. Maybe you're not going to be headed north very successful. But you can still oriented Transat, and where it's possible to build that thing out. That's your responsibility. It's not the outcome. It's the journey and the taken you're driving back your capacity back to direct where life goes learning skills as to how to do that is what act about and when we make a commitment to something Jews the destination where often confronted with two things negative thoughts and anxiety because maybe new never done it before. How does act help us deal with both of those things the essentially that would be like sitting in the driver's seat turning around. And having an argument with the passage kind of, you know, good luck with that. In terms of being navigate the road ahead because after all these negative thoughts, and he's difficult feeling. Echoes the past the past and the present. And but they present themselves the way that you have to solve that problem. Maybe not maybe what you need to do is notice take what's of worth in there. Sometimes there are things worth in there. If you've for example, had relationships that haven't gone well, and now you're just in early parts of dating. And then you get the sense hit a minute. This feels very familiar how might be really important. Maybe you're picking up on something that I've managed to select somebody who's going to not actually be the kind of person that I can build the kind of relationship I want so you wanna have your feelers out. But you don't want to be dictated to by them. It's up to you. So it's not a matter of putting your fingers in years. Now, I'm not gonna listen to my thoughts are not gonna feel my feelings is showing up or getting towards the road ahead and building that outnumbered act as it gives you these. Processes of emotional openness and flexibility, cognitive openness and flexibility attentional flexibility from this kind of conscious point of observing witnessing that allows you to make choices and then being able to direct your attention towards what you care about and building out those habits commitment part. So it's a one two punch or maybe even better think of three of being aware and open to be present. And to be actively engaged in the kind of life. You wanna live in that thinking that those three steps turns out is in powering anywhere that human mind goes. I mean, I was down in Rio. People win gold medals doing act didn't get over to the last one in Korea. I forget where it was. But watch the businesses prosper putting act into their business culture or a CEO's working on it. You can help yourself step onto the towns as physical disease dealing with diabetes or cancer, whatever. And yes, mental health problems. It turns out that the that sequence of, you know, open aware, actively engaged assistant powering to human beings anywhere in your life. And now we're sitting on about two thousand studies that say that I mean as vast miniature and. I think the the psychological news coming to the point where they pretty much agree these flexibility principles are critical to human development. Yeah. I I feel like when we're rigid psychologically or not built to handle life. Exactly. You can't manage the road that has potholes that has construction that is going to have detours and sometimes cattle even cross on your way up. The San Francisco rigidity is the enemy to development. It really is. If you always do what you've always done yours got what yours got him in mobs may be right about that. So so doing something new that's truly new not just another form of the same old same old and stepping out of this cover problem solving mode of mind with your own thoughts. Feelings memories into this more witnessing motive mine. This kind of. Wow, motive mine, the kind of mode of mind bring seeing a sunset tonight or having a crying child in front of you. You not the kind of. Be applied. If you had a broken car in front of you that shift helps with truly new things that are built around a different set of principles that are there for a different purpose than detecting challenging leading and changing your internal worlds that you can clean it up. So that you can start living, and you know, the clock is ticking. If you're going to start living now a good time. Well, it couldn't be more right about that. And and of course, I mean. We keep putting off living that's going to have its own set of problems. But also, the the course of that suffering at loss is coming your way, it's inevitable and without tools. They're going to be sustaining damage as you get older. And at some point it's not gonna be enough for you to come back from. Yeah. I think suffering. Optional pain is not and we do things that turn pain and suffering. The actual metaphor of suffering is the furry part is like a ferryboat it's carrying and suffering and suffering up and under it has this metaphor of a big heavy sack of stuff that you're carrying help. If you this put it down put it down to get rid of it. But you don't have to carry that weight. You can get with your pain and now director so towards your purpose, and that actually is organic put together because if you take anything that really pains, you anything I'll ask you this question. It's a weird question has almost double negatives in it. What would you have to not Garib out for that to not have heard? If you were rejected you have to not care about relationships. I don't give it down. Oh than rejection of meaning I don't care, right. If you're not trying to produce something when you try to achieve something put a business together. Make something happen failure would be painful. I'm not doing anything. Right. So when you flip over payment, you open up the pain, it gives you like on a sheet of paper that has the painful history written on on the other side of the paper unseen, or the aspirant the the yearnings the needs connections values that you have. And I sometimes say declines, okay? You want to get rid of this side of the paper, you can do that. But you can have throw the whole sheet, and I have never met anybody who wants to do that. They want the one-sided sheet of paper there is no such thing. Yeah. So, you know, if if you love you're gonna know something about loss, if you want to achieve know something about failure. You know, it's just built in. That's the way it comes as like an Oreo cookie that has both things together. And I think we'll every philosophy known to man as shown that and that's going to be there. And so what once again, we need to be. We'll have better twenty to have better tools to be that bus driver. Yeah. When we're focusing on rigidity were shrinking our comfort zone and were stationary network. Comfort is I love playing out of knowledge is probably. No comfort means with strength fordis-. They build a fort fort same. So what helps us get with our strength is not running away. It's not a racing. It's not having a different history than one. You have the strength that you have to take that and channel towards a life worth living. And it turns out that's possible. Isn't that flurry far away? We're kind of living inside cages that are made it over rice paper, they're v a really close look really scared actually not. And so the the dictating voice within that turns everything into problem-solving isn't the only way that we can interact with the pain that we've had kind of give you an example of recent mound life. Yes, please my mom died at age ninety one. If I were just asked you you can always say the words, good or bad. Okay. I'm going to give you a seed word and you have to. I have to say good or bad. If I say happy. Good good. Of course, a sad Edmund anxious. Add joyful good. Okay. How do you think fell? The next to my ninety one year old mother watcher dime. Of course. I would imagine very sad. Yeah. And when I got that call that she was in third Dave of the Monja, you know, and I ran to the airport and I blast. I got there. Just in time. That's you did a little shape overhead to know that she knew I was there. But not now even talking and I watched her feet turn lack, and I watched her breasts space out, and then that last one came, and there wasn't another one was incredibly sad, and I would have paid one hundred thousand dollars there. In you just taught me Savvas bag. I heard it. You said it and everybody listening would have said it, and it's a little high. It's the part of that fixes your car. Does your taxes? I get if we're just drought up don't leave out in the morning saying, hey, I want sadness. But you know, think about this. Don't you buy tear Jerker books? Don't you go to movies? They're scary. I mean, there isn't any emotion not one that you don't pay good money to produce. So what the heck are you doing? When your mind tells you that's bad Salai? And so we we rigidity comes out of the small tiny little space down the live in the the mind the problem solving judgmental mode of mine knows to do. Instead of this vast space that we have that are more conscious part of us knows how to do where sadness as a purpose. The reason how sad watching my mom die is because. I love my mother. That's the way it comes and respected. But she stood for was sweet quality to that said nece. It was bittersweet quality. It wasn't all painful. I mean, I could feel the pain of it. There was something that honored her the dignified her. It was important that was there with my sister, my cousins watching so I don't know the judge mental part of it isn't the whole human being. It's only one thing. One part of us the passengers in the back don't really know how to drive, but we do. And I want those passengers, but I don't want to turn my life over to them because they tell me things like sad is bad. They're that dumb. That's to go along with that. You're talking about tearjerker books that are some movies. That are sad being for myself. I can name so many artists Jason is bell at one artist who I love who has made a career out of. All countries songs that will tear you up and make you cry. And in fact of being at some shows where I'm like upset, but yet it feels so right in that moment that you don't wanna feel anything else. And how do you even begin to explain that? We seek it out. We feel it. We know it's important. And yet we can't explain because you get to that explain part, you know, now, you're into justifying you're into this problem solving mode of mine. The is good for doing some things. But not everything at five and said all I'm going to play this song. It's the saddest thing ever heard the first thing you're going to think of as I want hear that. No, you got to it's the most amazing song ever heard. And I just I just love this feeling. No. I don't wanna hear what so ever turn that off. So of course, well, if you ask yourself to think about the moments in your life, there were most transformational that are most meaningful really impacted your life make a list, some of Muir crying. Yeah. A guaranteed some of your crying, in fact, even the positive unquote values because they're so close to places where Rivonia my marker when I'm working with somebody. I know they're of digging in when I can see there is tearing up. I mean, if you say something like I want love in my life. And he really mean it, and you've you've been on a journey that is deliberately almost because evil trying to hurt yourself with because you don't know the alternative creating relationships that are superficial because then they're safe. You don't let people get beyond the the big Narmer. Barrier. You put around you because you've been hurt in the past. I'm never be so vulnerable again ins wounded -able, vulnerables wound -able when people close to the moon, you if you cut somebody to space, it say something so sweet so wonderful like I want love, and my they're gonna tear up why? Because these values are a rich soup of year inning and of need and informed by pain. So it's, you know, the the number of to say, no, no, no, no play that song. I'm bringing me down. What won't the places that are really meaningful in your life? Have that quality not always evolution joyful moments victory moments is it's August things all they'll have place. But the the sorting part of us that sorts it in the Gooden head that that part of your of remind doesn't understand that never will. Because that's not what if. Solved to do it. Evolve to solve problems, and I love this concept of psychological flexibility, because when we think about registered there is no movement. There is no action. If you wanna become flexible, you have to do things you have to experience things you have to take action and as such a huge principle. John, I even literally have tattooed on our bodies. Be over a this concept that living rigidly is a it's your comfort zone. It's where you feel that sugary soup, but in order to live life, you got to confront the challenge that is B and B is always going to be more difficult than a is in your comfort zone be is outside of your comfort zone. But the more you choose be the stronger, you become the more flexible, you are psychologically physically, and it opens up a whole other world. Oh, so we baked it into our courses. Whether it's the boot camp or core confidence comfort zone challenges putting yourself in a place where yes, I'm outside of my comfort zone, but through gaining that experience, and there there's going to be moments where it goes swimmingly. Well, and I'm crying tears of joy. And there's going to be moments where I'm crying tears of sadness because I failed. But that's how we start to develop that psychological flexibility that is going to help us in life. The her is not going to be this endless stream of high moments, and we've had guests like sugar it Leonard on to talk about it someone who's incredibly famous who had everything at a very young age. And what happened he was chasing that dream in it led to substance abuse. Right. When we chase just the positive just the sugary soup. It puts us down a path that ultimately harms us, you have data now that you know, voiding the good emotions predict this. The other part is clinging to. The most. So the clinging part of us that wants it just one way that fixes it in place. You know, you mentioned substance abuse led by accident that that word fixes inside the substance abuse evictions. It isn't just you're gonna fix. What's broken? Also, you're gonna hold it in place, you're gonna fix it in place like a butterfly's to the to the board with a pin, and you know, with enough of substances in your body. Maybe it'll seem like that. But at an enormous cost. So instead could be have that flexibility to allow ourselves to grow with the wisdom to know that edgy of growth, it's always going to be hard. The metaphor of uses like a bubble like a balloon in you put more into expands. And then you've got inside that space more space to live. But at the edge of it is a question. Are you willing to have me as I am as if an emotion of thought speaking to you are you willing to have a fully and without needless defense as? It is not as what it says. It is in still move in the direction of brings meaning purpose in your life. And as yes or no question, essentially, am I going to expand out even the little more? So who knows what's ahead of you? No matter how much successive had or how much love you've had. You may have a challenge just around the corner that you have not yet opened up to you're not yet done the B over a and that that moment, you're going to need those same flexibility skills it so, but even so even flexibility your mind will turn it into. Okay. I'm gonna move inflexible to flexible and then have flexible obey hold it. Like can hold onto this comp. Have got. I've got I've got the sluice down. Flexible now bull that very statement doesn't include the things where you're not yet flexible about and unless you're you know, some deity or something they're always going to be hitting zone that you're not yet comfortable with. You're not. With your strength. Right. So you gotta look at more like of a process that never ends. Yeah. You look at it Yogi he doesn't get flexible and a done check box. I'm flexible the rest of my life. Life is all about forcing rigidity on you. Whether it's the physical whether it's the emotional, whether it's the mental. So it's the process of gaining the flexibility of doing the exercises doing the stretches stepping outside of your comfort zone. That is the process. There's no getting around it. And you could think about being more flexible, all you want you could think about being stronger, all you want. But it comes to pushing the weight up actually taking the action that builds the flexibility, if you could this one thing one thing, I'll go I'll give you two. Do one new thing every day fundamentally new thing everyday, you know, pushed your own buttons every day. And I said if I give to two through one kind thing every day to and, you know, so you're always growing, and you're never finished. And who knows where that takes you. Let's find out. Well, I think what's so important about act in the work that you've done is when you're able to implement these ideas than that thing that is new everyday that you're going to do. Doesn't have to be daunting. Doesn't have to be frustrating. It can actually be fun. And and once you flip that that script then the whole world starts to open up to. And then you find yourself doing all kind of wonderful things. I mean, that's one of the reasons why age a few months ago had taken on the challenge of the half marathon because we were walking into the unknown. There was going to be training that we've never done before that we're going to have to do the make that happen. And some of which we dread that was terrifying for us. What does that going to Intel, and that's going to be up from the normal sort of workout? So we do have we've ever run that for what's that going to be like what is the toll that it's going to take on our body telling a few hundred thousand people we're going to run. Far everything count ability that goes along with that check ins on social what are your times, what are your splits and a lot of people who heard about that? We're like you guys are crazy what you get yourself into. You've never done that before. And while all that was going on. We were getting excited like this is going to be fun. I know it's going to be challenging, and I remember it was what does that first beer gonna taste like after we've just run thirteen point one that is going to be the best we've ever had. And that would help that was enough to fuel me to do it. I guess we'll find out. They right running on. You know, at this one of the things I want to caution people about is that although it feels as though at the zone of growth that it's brand new call God, I've never done. In fact, if you've worked on walking through it walking through it walking through it, you have resources you just have to connect into it. So the cool thing about flexibility is flexibility training gives you resources you can use any needed. And it's always going to be a challenge. But it's not a challenge from fresh start. You have you have skills in hand if I can use an example, I'm an old, dude. I kind of like punk rock, and I lived in Greensboro, and they would cut the bands the early bands. But go from Atlanta to DC so Wednesday nights and Greensboro because they were not proper enough yet they could fly. They're driving the vans upright, some of the speakers would come out these tattered did a bare chested who you know, like roar. Like aircraft engines from thirty foot. Tall speakers. Who's standing right in front of the thirty. You know? Well. People who like music, and you get to be seventy I can tell you what it sounds like he twenty four seven. For seven. Well, so I'm in notice some years ago and begin knows noticed nothing. Our God is and I'm doing them to do in this stuff to audio just tells me to do wear earplugs. I'm trying not to make noise. You know? I'm I shouldn't have more ear damaged. It's getting worse. And then I had this thought I should shoot myself than the noise oboe. Then this other voice comes in, dude. That's a suicidal. When did you apply? Your life's work to it. Like it didn't occur to me for three freaking years ago out for a walk. I come back. The problem is like eighty percent solve but in next day as one hundred percent so in the solution is very much like Manson. I don't give up. Sometimes acceptance next lifetime. Be more careful about standing in front of the speakers. Okay. So I expected, but I have learned from that of an instant future lifetime. I hope I apply this. But meanwhile, what I've got is ringing years. So what do I need to attend that? I bet you there's an air conditioner on somewhere. Do you hear it? I don't hear. If you focus on it. You might be able to hear my here's my point. When you have the resources of walking through these flexibility processes opening up -tracting, what's value and moving your attention towards what's ahead of you. You can apply that to anything and life's going to give you curve balls new things, it won't necessarily always be obvious that you should apply. You could be as dumb as I was thirty years of work on happened. Like went three years before it even occurred to me we've not by the way randomized trials of this. We developed measures of it. The single most powerful predictor of negative outcomes from tentatives tonight is pronounced both ways which leads even to suicide -ality. This is not fun until people. Learn how to help handle it. Now see way, which the basic let go attending to it just opened up to the noise and then move on the measures now are far more predictive than how much hearing damage you've had cetera. We can teach people skills or online. To do it. So I kind of say in two things of flexibilities of processing, you can learn their specific slows to do it very much like your metaphor of Inova stretching exercises. When you get new things initially won't even occurred you to apply them, but you're putting things in the Bank. You've got no skills there. And I don't think I could have done a walk around the neighborhood come back and have solved. This problem struggling with for three years, if I hadn't put a whole lot of other things the Bank on my struggle with the panic disorder or gone to build out at work in my life, and those of my clients. So let's let's learn skills that we can use acknowledging and understanding that each new step is going to be challenged but easier, I don't know if you want to dig into the ears ringing, Johnny grinning, could've added that story, obviously, some background overlaps. Well, well, yeah, I was just like. That's slur for me. You know, I, and of course, you know, a lot of my idols who I've now litter in live, and I and they're dealing with tonight's and a lot of things that wondering how they're working through it because it is a difficult thing. And as as you mentioned, there are things that you're just not going to be able to throw away or get rid of and much of act as about the thoughts that you're not going to be able to get away from it's about how do you deal with these because we all deal with them? And I believe it's your analogy to the coke later. That is something you can put numbers in you could put experiences in you could put thoughts, and but once they're in. They're not going anywhere is no delete button. There's no minus button. The only add, and multiply, and that's kind of human nervous system is a rain in psychology any learning class that you take the tell you there's no such thing as unlearn ING there's forgetting, but you can relearn it more faster of more quickly. Even things you've forgot, which means that they're nervous system in some way. You wouldn't be able to bring quickly there's extinction. That's an addition that can reappear instantaneously in a win the context changes old things show up even the the useful. But they're still in your repertoire still know how to do them. So this it's not logical, but it's psychological logically. It seems like we should be able to be able to eliminate things. That's not how our nervous system is arranged as a life work. So we're asked to do something that is very challenging which is to carry these things and yet not be dominated to her dictated to his things. And turns out that's a skill. You can lose you can learn and that is what psychological flexibility is basically learning how to show up become president enough focused on what's important in the thing that makes it worthwhile. Is that focus on what's important is that you can get about the business of living while I was struggling around with my tonight is focus. It wasn't healthy. It wasn't helpful nothing. Good happened out of you know, it turns out actually only hear the ringing about once every two or three weeks or something when somebody talks about it because I don't care. So why would I attend to it? But you know, life is going to give you stuff like that. Don't won't be. Attractive? Of course, you're history and stuff. But also as you age in the fence will happen. So beca get be working on flexibility skills because in the same way that your body. You know, we're going to need that more at stretching and so forth as you age and change, you're going to need that kind of psychological flexibilities, you have increasing challenges to face new I and I love that story because as coaches, and obviously throughout your career, helping other people it's very easy for them to view us as invincible not having struggle having it all worked out you've researched it for decades. So obviously of no concern in these areas. It's a struggle for all of us. Right. That's why we threw ourselves in the half marathon to become better coaches because we knew that we're gonna do something uncomfortable. We can't ask all those participants in our programs online and in person do something that's uncomfortable. If we're sitting up here in our ivory tower of comfort. When you networking event. The last thing you want to be worried about is higher looking have Salih, and you wanna be comfortable, which is why we love state and liberty shirts. 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But to get this offer you need to sign up through our special your L start your free month trial. Now, go to great courses, plus dot com slash charm. That's great courses, plus dot com slash charm. The other part of acceptance and commitment therapy is well, the commitment side effects and commitment is doing the things that are important to us and will improve the quality of our life Bahari important understanding of what we mean by commitment. And obviously these things are going to be different for everyone. You know, as Johnny's favourite story is not a father so commitment to being a fantastic father, not highness list right now, we're all going to be in different positions in our life. And sometimes he's commitments are gonna change. You had a great metaphor on a previous episode around. This idea of not holding firmly onto something as the commitment and being rigid about it. But understanding that it is important is to make the commitment and be flexible, sometimes those commitments will change for those listeners who right now, maybe don't have things that they want to commit to or they're unsure of what they should be committing to what advice you have for us. For ways in that. I know heroes are visors God's sweet spots painful spots and being a author your own story. Those are the four ways I know that are quick ways to get to to situate values could take the one of heroes guides plays. Like, if you're struggling with something, let's say, it's in exile. And it's it's in fearing in some really important ways. And you haven't really fully even explored. But those would be I could save Vang's IT were initially. What would you be doing that might be a way to give you, but that's the hero in God thing pick somebody in your life. Who's lifted you up an empowered you in some way, somebody who actually know anybody, you know, could be a sibling, a friend or coacher therapist or teacher any who you think might have some wisdom and guidance here and kind of picture that person. I bet you there's some. Something about the way they are with themselves. And with you that gives you the sense of what you would like to see in your own behavior. Think about your heroes reflect something and probably isn't just how much money they got or something something about their way being in the world. And especially when you're filtered down picking somebody who'd be helpful to guide, and so I like kind of digging into what are those qualities that that person reflects to you that you would want to reflect in your journey such that somebody else might say, you know, that is like that. And that's cool. Now, can we bring those qualities even to these moments where I'm anxious and where have something to do? Inside the anxiety may be some of these very things that you just told me you wanna reflect in some my I have a history of excited sort of Acton. Part started out amount personal journey panic disorder. I was two or three years into kind of unwinding might panic. Struggles took me down to the point. Right. Could hardly a lecture of ten undergraduates pretty hard to sputter teacher in college view. Can't make sound come out of your mouth the couple years in before. I began to see things that were in my panic that were actually really cool. Flashlights? Into what I want to do. Ted talk on this. You can do a search on find what I found was the pain of watching my parents fight with the other and the domestic violence owes in home, my dad's alcoholism, depressed, CD wonderful loving people. Don't judge them because they have problems reason kids and being there for us not so much because there was so much into their their struggle in in the Ted talk walk through that transformational moment where I actually catch that isn't just things ICTY. It's had as in. Then I catch. What I wanted to do in life, which is to help people who are suffering like that. In. Oh, that's cool. I mean that is like that gets me up, and, you know, joking earlier John hypothetical time, you're asking how long we news thing. I'm an old, man. I can do it because there's an energy in their of being able to do something about suffering and being power people live the kind of lives. Quite apart from anything else in turns out that was right inside the panic part. Tell the story actually my first panic attack was in a department meeting full professors fighting as I say the way that only while animals full professors capable. And I just wanted to tell them to stop. And I didn't know what hit me so hard by the time. They turned to me because as my hand couldn't make sound come out of my mouth 'cause then in the middle of full blown panic attack. But looking back, I can see it. That moment reminded me if my dad's screaming, my mother mother screaming and hearing the loud noises knowing or the hitting each other, and as a very young child, then led to me being a psychologist psychologist goes I wanna fat Vida and have a lot of grants and write books. I mean, some of those things happen you be right about something. And so I would ask somebody who's really struggling, for example, if you're struggling with social anxiety. My guess is you care about people. You wanna be with people terrible quality der Bali, Carol. You wanna love participate along contribute? I've never met a person who socially hang suicide like that. Otherwise would just be you know, because of in your social anxiety stubby may withdraw and say, they're hermits. I mean, you could go withdraw completely threw the top summer, but you probably not gonna be suffering norm, social anxiety that something else social anxieties this mixture of longing mirror Ning that is right inside your body. Your logical mind says I don't get to have that until the exhibit goes away. Well, no. Because if you're able to be with yourself, even feeling that you'll be able to connect with others when they're feeling things that are hard because it turns out people don't want to be with you. If you're a cartoon wanna be with you. If you're a robot it want to be with a clown face or Rick this painted on your face. They wanna. Be with you real whole human being. So what if it included some hedger anxious flip it over because you urine to connect and belong could be channelled that anxiety into push out the comfort zone into making that call into going on that date, and being more, honest and genuine not putting on a face would happen there. Allies of the Dan. Zayed's may print from an enemy to your friend that you like nobody jumps up in the morning say wanting Zaidi, but because it softens you humanizes you and connects you to your deepest urine ings and long for connection and belonging contribution, caring. He had that anxiety can become negative compass. Yeah. Guide us to what's really important to us. Right. It's it's going to say if there's things -iety here than underneath that is something I really care about exactly when you're coming up to big podcast or something. I guess as you guys feel something's ICTY course, slowly got a guest or something. You don't know. It's really important thing that is connecting purpose. And if you didn't feel it at all, frankly, we know that in one of the oldest findings college if you don't have enough exiled even connected with that, you're actually less likely to form. Well, you don't wanna be completely happy. Happy joy joy smile face. If you're not prepared. I would rather be anxious and get prepared. And that's that using that anxiety to prepare you for Pelley into those things that you wanna be doing. And I to go along that for myself when I used to have a credible stage fright when I first started performing a young, man. And I remember when I show jitters or seconds is just kept going on. And I remember asking my dad who was also performer, and as I asked him when will this stop, and he's like, you're asking the wrong question there, and he's like because if you don't have that. At going on walk you on stage. Then you do have something to be worried about and which is which is going to be much bigger problem than what you're dealing with now. So enjoy it. And I was like, well, that's not what I want. As I've gotten older. Of course, I understand that completely now. And and of course, for everything that that we do here at the time and in my life. I now I love those moments. I relish them. I looked for opportunities to have those feelings that allows you to fill it live. Yeah. Stand. But not always I don't turn it into something has to be like that. But often when stood feel that little anxiety resonance idea. Cool. Yeah. Come on. You know, there's something really empowering about it. When you learn to carry it sort of we have your wallet. And in your back pocket. You know? It's there there's things in it anxieties there. It's not your dictator. Not your masters. Let your boss it's coming along with you. And it's good to notice that your wallets there. Good. And I noticed side cool. I'm going to carry that into this conversation or this performance. This talker preparation this book, I'm writing or this podcast. Cool. Let's do that. Now in our day and age there's a lot of anxiety tied to social media likes comments engagement. We know you're actually in the process of writing a book about the influence of technology on our wellbeing. Would you say has been the biggest challenge over the last decade with this infusion of technology into our social lives? Well, the things that are hardest for people I think are fed by social media were exposed to painful things were exposed to judgement. And we're exposed to comparison and those three put together a toxic brew. So. You know, how you're doing? You can look at somebody who's doing better. This look at their Instagram thing. You can go inside the homes of the rich and famous imbue, no matter how successful we've accident research on this of how dominant it's a little bit of side of a comeback of how dominant the comparison of it is in your head of more versus less. There's a way of doing it, which is very geeky won't take the becomes out of our basic work on cognition. We can catch whether your bitch really doing more and less in the way, you think how it gets as hook for you that more than less hook predicts all kinds of outcomes because it means you come in all his moments using comparison. And you know, the John Paul Getty of film recently. You know, what would take for you to be happy, which is man in the world. Make it stop. So comparison social media lousy has a picture somewhere of person in the outback aboriginal person with a degree do long cloth whole thing and he's playing with his iphone. This is a weird world we're in and then on there. So you got comparison. But you've also got pain and judgment. And so anything really sick weird. Something happens. Go viral, see it. Yeah. Well, we start feeling is over and unsafe world. Do no violence has gone down hugely hugely. But kids aren't even allowed to talk to the park in more because something bad might happen. Because of how the as presented. Presented this and the judgment piece. I mean, you can literally not turn on the television without hearing the stream of judgment of them, right and wrong. Good all very harsh kind of brittle. So we're swimming in the stream of our own creation from the same mode of mind. It's wonderful science and technology. That is now gives us these like logical challenges, and what we need is modern minds of modern world. We need our psychology and cultural change fast enough that we can live in that world that we've created something. I wanted to ask you about that. Because we're at this point where it's okay. Well, now, I'm not gonna give my children these tools or I'm going to keep them from them or do the digital detox. Let's follow a child a teenage young adult in school. I would. So you don't get this tool because it's bad. And it's making kids the president year only. Okay. Well, he's going into a varmint where everybody does have that tool at now there's jokes and connection that are being made online that you're now not a part of. And so what? Now, you're force with what are they saying behind my back? What am I not privy to woods going on? Why everyone this is funny, and I don't everyone. And so you can't leave your your child on the out group at its it's going to be just as bad if the worst exposures going to happen. And we know that these devices are wired to push our pleasure buttons the likes and everything else to get our attention. So just completely blocking exposure stimulus at some point that exposure is going to happen. They're going to join a workforce technologically advanced they're going to interact with a classmate who has the ipad. So instead of trying to avoid exposure entirely. We need to be giving the tools. To handle when we are exposed to these things. That's what seems more important to me. But I I laugh here from parents all time, I just didn't give my kitchen ipad. Or we don't. We don't. And I'm thinking about okay? Well, when I was growing up, I hopped on my bike and went over to my Buddy's, you had to say Genesis great. My didn't give but I still play the Sega. So it's going to be there you're going to encounter it. So it seems to me more important as apparent to be giving our children the tools for that encounter instead of trying to avoid that entirely actually agree with that understand the instinct says wind back by the night old enough to remember this happened every time as technological fort always. And it goes back to even written language or printed books or you read. I mean, every time something step forward. People our losing control. And I get there's there's an issue here. What if is instead we try to use these technological tools, but in a wiser way and put indoor culture and indoor family conversations? And so for these flexible. Ability skills that we need to step back a little bit from the judgment, the bible notice things that are painful, but also orient towards what we want to put into our lives and to be less entangled with us comparison thing like I do worry about the person who starts measuring their self worth by the number of likes. They get that's taking your down a path that is very dangerous. But it isn't the only way to use that technology. You know? I mean, I'm watching my thirteen year old and his plan his Minecraft games or is different kind of. He's connecting with people all around in their world that's vastly more extended than I had, you know. And I think that's kind of cool if we can harness it. So it's going to be a difficult transition, but we know that these flexibility skills being more openly wear open wear actively engaged take some of these challenges for a VIN example, people who are in the short end of social judgments like one of the things you worry about with the social media. But if you get a bullied or stigmatized or things like that we've actually looked at the studies now people who have psychological flexibility scales are open mindful mostly able to direct attention. They can have be the recipients of things like that. And not have it damaged them in to their core. And the other part is to then get connected with groups who can build out a more positive cultural things. So that you're not in with a group where the bully actually is. Dominating your group. You're creating other groups that are kinder and more compassionate with each other. So I, you know, I think it's not wise to run away. You can't run fast enough. You can't throw out enough, ipads. And sooner or later, it's like the implants the things are new glasses. And I don't know where it's going to go be no, it's not gonna stay. Yeah. So we better figure out another way, that's moral wise, and you know, it's not the whole answer. But we knew know that some of the psychologists school have been exploring talking about here in the things that you train and the work. Did you do are helpful to people even step up to the the modern challenges of pain gentleman, Parison on social media? Johny we've been in LA almost ten years now. And how's your Spanish coming along? All gringo. I don't know if that's gonna work. We're headed to loom. I think you might wanna check out babble the language learning app. That will get us speaking a new language with confidence. Whoa. That's amazing. Think it will have me speaking proper Spanish by the time, we get to Loom I think so you better download that app. Now, choose from fourteen different languages, including Spanish, French and German here that Michael Babbel's teaching method has been proven to be effective across multiple studies with convenient lessons that are only ten to fifteen minutes lessons are lovingly created by over one hundred language experts real people not by translation machine. No one wants translation machines available as an app or online and your progress will be saying to cross all of your devices. You could try babble for free today. Download the app or text charm two four eight four eight four eight. Techs charm, two four eight four eight four eight to try babble for free today. That's charm, C H A R M two four eight four eight four eight cheers. Chose. Johny? Sometimes I just don't have time to dig into a book and really enjoy it. And it used to drive me nuts. But luckily, there's blankets. It's the only app that takes thousands of bestselling books and makes them acceptable for busy people like us. You can read or listen to them and under fifteen minutes all on your phone, Johnny. What do you like about blankets? Well, I'm always reading stay on top of what's new and personal development. So blankets helps me up because it condenses a book in the fifteen minutes. I can get into the material that his most important for me as a teacher. I love listening to blankets when I'm waiting for friends making dinner for Amy fifteen minutes is up before even know it and Johnny that blink is libraries pretty massive. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It has everything from classics like the four hour workweek by Tim fares to Charles do Higgs latest book smarter, faster better. We had Charles on last December. He's smart as whip and his books are always packed with research. But if you're liking this episode you'll like the book thinking fast and slow by Daniel Kaneman link is constantly adding new titles from the best of. List to always be getting the most powerful ideas and easy to use mobile format right now Blake as a special offer just for our audience head on over to blink dot com slash eo. O to start your free trial or get three months off your yearly plan when you join today. That's blinking. B? L I N K I S T dot com slash A. O C start your free trial or get three months off your yearly plan. What's so counter intuitive? About acceptance and commitment therapy is the concept what we call psychological flexibility in this idea that it's not about making go away. It's non about destroying the ipad. It's none of 'bout destroying things and removing ourselves from the situation. But it's actually allowing us to create some space, but understand that it's a part of living. This is a part of the process. So we don't have to be tied directly to our thoughts emotions and believes we can create some space between them that allows us to navigate again towards that thing we're committed to now a lot of our listeners are probably thinking, let's awfully his anxiety. Never goes away. Why are you telling me this, right? Just like Johnny's father earlier, I want a solution. That just makes it go away. Just enough is enough. Why am I doing all this work in the first place? Why am I putting all his effort energy? If I know that it just not gonna go away. What's your answer to that? Well, what if instead of having go away in you know, getting out of? We sorta get into your life with it present. And not when it's not. I mean think about this way how much anxiety do need the normal day to be able to to act and live in a passionate, you know, vital values based life probably not that much in a certain amount of anxiety. But you know, executives and ancient emotion in to to run to fight to hive course, really good thing. If you got lions Tigers and bears around we've got symbolic language. Pretty recent stuff on if you hundred thousand years old that can turn our mental life into lion. Cars bears. Been just our thoughts. Fearsome dinosaurs. Who were running from memories we easily could carry a fun way to the Handelman? So what here's the tricky thing. A mind will hear what I'm saying right now here like this. If you let go of. The fantasy of the delete button or the minus button instead show up and now focus on what brings meaning and purpose to live. Anxiety becomes less of an issue in the totality is less of an issue in the same way that if you had a glance of salty water and added freshwater, it'd be less salty, not because you took an assault out because you had things in. So in fact, if you look the two hundred and fifty randomized trials controlled studies on outcomes for MAC in almost any area. Even think of anything done some studies on in fact, anxiety does go down a boys at a dangerous thing to tell people with things ICTY 'cause they think that that's a means to get it down. No, it is it it goes down precisely because not a means when you're open, and you're willing to feel feel already. And you have the attentional flexibility now to by choice, focus on what's important to you. You start feeling that Lhasa freshwater in one as they had is down. But if you actually were trying to make a good down her like, I'm not going to anything until I got the magic tweezers that take the salt, crystal crystal when the whole freaking moments about the salt, not about the water, doesn't taste any better. You're not affective at it. Anyway. So it's paradoxical a metaphor that we sometimes use an accusation of physical metaphor for this. We take those little straw. Tubes. Is to come. Chinese finger trap. Oh, yeah. You get them at the county fair something like that or some sort of carnival or something. Finger in but they're woven in such a way as you pull them out. They narrow and grab your in. If they're really strong and can't be cheap ones even apart. But if they're really strong well made you sometimes I'm the most panicky moment like who. I kept on my fingers out, but you can push your fingers in. And when you do that with some space to move those fingers around. So maybe he's kinda like that that you've got yourself caught in a logical finger trap thinking you have to get out. And really what you have to do is get in get into your life with its emotions and let your motions of soom whatever level they take in the kind of life that you're living, and that will depend on what you're doing done. What you put in it? And sometimes it will care on DU, including Zayed and said as an anger in anything else on because that's our motions work. And that's why they're here. But we don't have to make our life about that get hooked by that key issues to get unhooked to show up and start living kind of life. You wanna live? And that message is a positive message and away. I would say it is have you had enough. And are you ready to live life? The. The kind of life. You choose not what your mind would choose a whole person Jews in the sense of what's the direction. What's the journey? Whereas Beth driver taken your life. I love that analogy because the more you struggle harder. His to get out of the trap in the first place. You're just aware that ham in a trap. Maybe if I try something else, I can actually get out of it. The single fastest way to move out of the trap people get in on the trying to can't have this. I can't have a can't have is basically makes anxieties unto be anxious about single fastest way on is doing fully that you're in to show up to trap. If you show it to trap like eyes wide open. You lose interest in trying to make that happen. You know, it's a lot easier to move in the moment that you realized the harder that you pull the more. Squeezing down. So it's not bad for you to notice. This is not working. That's really really important. It's not working because it doesn't work that way. Good. Learn from that. And let's not do that anymore. No, more pulling so hard repecting pulling fingers out of her sockets, and the people come and have to find the way I have to have to say, well, okay, tell you what. And try to make that work. And if you suffered enough compact. Because I don't see. I mean, I see people drinking drugging voiding, I don't see people succeeding that. I don't see that the finger trap grabbing them with that analogy. It makes it so easy to understand. Why people just give up because for what they know with choice a path a the one that they've been doing their whole life. It only gets worse. The suffering gets worse. It's not getting any better. And it's like, well, this is what I have to deal with for the rest of my life. Well, then that's an easy decision about. However, there are many different ways and act does a great way in and helping with that. And of course, making making fun. Giving up as you know, one thing in the basic anxiety runaway thing fight saying or flop in give up give up can be another variant on the same thing. But there's another another way that that's healthier that is that kind of posture of getting with and that transforms that that really changes the agenda in a fundamentally can give you a metaphor for. I think people can relate to slowly. All right. Take this. And we'll take anxieties raised you, really. Struggle with anxiety. Take that emotion kind of magin. That's there now. Nobody's around look around ody's. Obey self, right. Okay. Put yourself in your body posture of you at your worst in dealing with that. Due to a mental snapshot actually do it in the way that if you were sculptor you'd sculpture body if your body in that posture was like a bronze statue in the sculpture garden personal long ago. I know what was going on there. I know that psychological space. Okay. Do it. Now, put your body in the posture that if you were sculpting somebody else would see you at your best in dealing same issue. Actually done this with hundreds of people around the world. All parts of the world Middle East, South America, set to can with people do, and I bet you people just did it if they actually did ask them to do you at your worst? Your head comes down your arms, come you fold in the fetal position your arms and legs full up or maybe you're viscous clenched. And you get ready for a fight or you might have just start running. But it's gonna be something like that the single most likely one is that kinda crunch down in even highest close. But what is the metaphor there? I can't even see where ham. My head isn't even up my I'm defending Mahar arms hands Rian that can't even grab anything folded up account walk. Okay. That's the flop so your fight posture. Conversely, you your best. I bet your head game up your arms came out your eyes opened up. You might have stood up might've even walked around. What's the metaphor is are open? So I can see I can move my head. I can direct attention arms enhance out in free. So I can do something even standing up I can move towards things. So here's my question, but listening the anxiety struggle you have wisdom within, you know, something to show that you're on body. How would you put your behavior in the posture metaphorically standing up opening your eyes looking forward? But in your hands out and living that way, if it doesn't work to live this other way or your life on hold waiting things. I'd go way. And maybe it's time for something different. Keep doing that. I move you're going to get that result. Bolt. And I saw I'm not gonna ask people to really kinda lie with their own wisdom. You've learned something from your suffering. What if we put this into practice and instead of learning, oh, there's no way out and you're gonna flop. No, that's another variant on the same thing. Do you done that before betcha you've done things like that before network either? Let's do that. Counter intuitive thing of stand up stand up look forward, put your hands out. And that's what actors do helps people stand up in consciousness and put their hands and arms out into the values based actions to pick with their life. That is no longer based on running away from fighting with or flopping heap resins of that's exactly why we love it so much. It's why our clients benefit from it on our programs. I know in core confidence, it's what the comfort zone challenges are all about is in a controlled environment walking into that space. Where we know in the past fed summing Zayed's in a small step getting exposed to it and getting that valuable knowledge as he's talked about that we can carry with us and build off of and whether it's throwing yourself at a physical challenge and emotional challenge. A mental challenge the more we can sharpen that skill said build out that flexibility the easier it is to deal with that voice in our head that that told us back. Thank you so much for joining us today was a wonderful conversations where can our audience. Learn more about you an act go to my website, Stevenson, Hayes dot com. I'll send the little sudden item mini course on act, and there's also a vast number resources that mentioned my TED talks. Not just all about me. There's a large community around the world, and you're part of it. Thank you for that. We're trying to bring these flexibility processes into people's hearts and minds and homes, babe. You're so. You can find many other resources there. The that's start road. Thank you. So you're. Stephen Hayes always makes me feel better after talking to him. I think it's partly as voice, and I wonder if it's that clinical psychology thing, I think he has a lot of diagnosing going on with the Johnny. Oh, boy does he and speaking feeling good. We got a really great Email from one of our listeners baggy wrote this. I just want to give a big thank you for your brilliant podcast. I take something from every episode and this week's comments about making friends in new places really landed with me, I'm from England and immigrated to us Rilya, and I'm about to move to a new area for the fourth time. I've really been looking forward to finally creating a base and getting no people which was difficult up until now as we've been so transient a lot of what I do is around helping fellow road crew and performers get healthier when we're traveling. And I know a lot of them start listening to you guys. I'm always recommending you. Because what you do bring such great and transformative value. The combination of Iraq. Enroll and science backgrounds. Really appeals to me and them. And I always feel uplifted listening to you. Love your work guys. Keep on keeping on warmly Baqi. I love the fact that she picked up on a rock and roll and science background. And you know, life is tough for those guys out on the road for the road crew and performers. So I love the know that they're out there listening to us and getting healthy while traveling is not easy. So property record for supporting everyone, we really love your recommendations. So thank you for sharing us with your crew, Johnny. We've had a lot of listeners right in talking about recommending it to friends families sharing it with co workers, and we love that. And in fact, if you could do us, a huge favor and head on over to tunes, find our show and leave us a review it helps new listeners fine this show. Please share the love hell. Yeah. The podcast is produced by Chris Oland, Michael herald, this show's been recorded at caz media studios and sunny Hollywood and engineered by Dan. Lubar and Bradley denim. I'm Jay, and I'm Johnny. Thank you for listening. And we'll see next week. How fantastic.

Johnny San Francisco LA ICTY John Los Angeles Mike Okocha Dr Steven Hayes Stockholm Janis Graham Stephen Hayes university of Reno Hollywood New York City David Romanelli Bank
Thank you, America: Malcolm Gladwell, Maria Teresa Kumar, Jonah Goldberg and Stephen Hayes

1947: The Meet the Press Podcast

1:06:44 hr | 1 year ago

Thank you, America: Malcolm Gladwell, Maria Teresa Kumar, Jonah Goldberg and Stephen Hayes

"Happy Day before Turkey Day from Washington. I'm Chuck Todd and this is the Chuck Todd Casts. I hope we'll be joined this holiday with family and friends. It's my single favorite holiday taking thanksgiving. You turn it into your holiday. That's the beauty of it. There's no religious pressure. There's no gift pressure. There's just pressure of being a happy cook A pretty good bartender. If that is what you choose to do doesn't have to be. Alcohol could be non Alcoholic Bloody Marys in the morning or nothing wrong with that on Thanksgiving and you get to pick the relatives mostly that you get the hang out with but in case you. Don't get to pick the relatives get to hang out with and you know you're going to get some fights arguments than do I have the podcast as for you. It is this. This is your political so for this special edition. I've chosen three of my favorite interviews to help you break down the deep schisms running throughout the country and to show us where we go from here just in time for your travels to debate your quirky uncle first up. There's no one who can help you see the world through someone else's eyes quite like author Malcolm Glad. Well Malcolm sat down with me and September eleventh. Shortly before his book talking to strangers was released he was moved to write as he watched racial. Tensions play out across the country spurred word on by the death of African American Sandra Bland and was all after a routine traffic stop. Here's an excerpt of our conversation. Let me do what I'm supposed to be doing here. which just talking about your book a little bit okay? I will say this what I thought the book would be and of course after reading what it was two different things. The first thing I thought of maybe dismay tell you more about me and where my head is at talking to strangers. How finally he's GonNa blow up Social Media and yet I don't mention the word social media in the entire Dr Book? There's another word you don't mention the entire book. I WanNa talk to you later later because I feel like you're writing tools for us to interpret this. This said entity that is not mentioned in the book but it is interesting to me that it what the cover is and what the book is our our. What what the what the tidal Heidel told me? And what the book is where two different things. I don't know if you tend to that or not a new. I don't think intended I didn't you know I I. I really was funny as I really really really just wanted to write about Santa Bland. I mean that is really. Why did that happen and figuring out if you unlock that you'll unlock everything else? It's not a metaphor and it's not a it's actually what the books about. Only I thought the best way to write about her was to go on these segregations about Amanda Knox Bernie Madoff for Jerry Sandusky Sadowski. Or what have you but I really really really did. I think you know the it all began. I read a book by Frank. Zimring criminologist And figure out how many people are killed every year civilians are killed every year by law enforcement and to suck up to more. I thought Ferguson Pot. The Ferguson episode people on the right side need to hear it to you know particularly in the left because it was you you you showcased how people are only listening with one ear But it was a brilliant episode anyway And he was trying to figure out so the first half of his book is trying to figure what that number is in surprisingly. It's hard you would think we would know that number and you have to like do a million calculations and we don't even keeping track of this and then then he realizes he's size. It's about a thousand people year here. And then he says is that higher low relative to other countries and the answer is it's way way way way way I and then he's like well. Why is it so high and I found this book? I read this book like years ago. Before I really started the book my book I find incredibly a riveting and distress as riveting and distressing a book written as I've read about America in a very very long time it was. It was an explicitly kind of indictment of America. But it was you. You couldn't read it and walk away feeling good about your country and it is and so and then along comes Sandra Bland. And it's like okay. It's time to make try and make sense of this phenomenon because he struggles a little bit with With the why he has a bunch of reasons but it is a little mysterious that there's something about relationships between civilians and law enforcement in this country that are good and that have tragic consequence. I was listening to your podcast on this and going through it. Michael Brown did not respect the authorities because the authorities had earned his respect and earned the communities respect respect and it made me think about just basic things we do with policing why do why does everybody have a if you're a driver. You have an instinctive distrust of a cop because you think they're gonNA come get you catch you and even if you do something wrong you think they might catch. I almost wonder if the worst thing we ever did to the perception of cops and the relationship between civilian and law enforcement was a speed trap. I don't know and I know that it's a simplistic way but it made me wonder. Have we just screwed up all of this. We've well I've always thought I always think that what's troubling is a bad. A bad message is in certain cities. It's worth others like in Boston. It's bad intel. It's bad you have these. SUV's painted black with huge. Like Doc Those bars on the front. What do they call those bullbars? Okay sure I am. We're looks like they're ready to ram through a riot. It looks like they're the paramilitary. Hey vehicles that's not a good look for when you realize what police really are. In the modern age there are certain there are social service agency and mostly what they're doing is comforting people who are who have some kind of emotional or physical trauma right. They're not that you know people shooting each other. It's a tiny tiny honey part of their job. Most of their job is is essentially being kind of it's an emt it's the same job as an emt responding to an emergency but this might be a mental emergency or yeah it's a convert whatever it is a it's dealing with people who are troubled right and so why if you if that's what your job is and by the way legitimately your job. Why do you have a vehicle? That makes it look like you're a commando yeah I don't I think it's just not I haven't. I wish I could remember it in in this small town in Canada where I grew up the police have a motto which is so hilariously Canadian. It's basically I don't remember what it is exactly but it's basically here to hug you and hold you. I mean it's something I mean. It's so hilarious Canadian but that that's the guy I'm afraid eight of showing you a recruitment a television ad out for the C. P. B. that they're running on college football games in this country. Let's just say it isn't about welcoming right and immigrants to America It is a much different message that they're sending look I. I grew up in Miami and right after first riots. They had the police officers football applecarts to kids. As a way of trying to fix their problem I remember that was an attempt but at least they were trying. Yeah at least at least they were trying something. I've just say going going through this and you're different examples of not being able to catch a spy. Basically our inability to find out if people are lying we can and you come to the conclusion number one. The biggest conclusion I came to is the worst way to figure out. If someone's lying is by looking them in the eye yes exactly and and and so how the hell talk to strangers. If you can't get the truth by looking them in the eye so I I become a a radical on this. I now increasingly the opinion that you should only do face to face encounters when there are consequences involved. We're doing face to counter. We have seen all the consequences. Well so yeah so the stakes here are really low. We're not knowing you know we're we're just trying to be entertaining. So but if there are stakes were real. I think you should avoid them. Face facing Cowan's whenever possible so for example. Here's one that many investors follow this principle. I know a number of serious people. In the investment community who make a point of not meeting the executives in person of the companies they invested. They think it's too then taken they don't take into see they know these orchestra the the idea as a musician. I cared about that a lot. You WanNa know. Oh that just your music is being judged so you put up a screen and you. Don't see the people just as just as orchestras do that. When they're picking perspective perspective employees physicians these these investors say you someone is a CEO by virtue of in many cases there compelling personality compelling personality is unrelated to the investment quality of the of the company? Don't take risk I've met a CEO. Who's just that way? It's just like that guy can say anything and he was failures. Yeah Yeah so stay so. But now I've got even further so in job interviews in general. Should we meet the person if they don't have an explicit social function in the job so they're selling perfume on the ground floor of Saxe. You've got to meet Yup. Yeah that matters. Let's take the. Let's take them off the table. You're hiring a researcher. Do you need to meet them. I I don't know and yet I can't tell you. Here's here's one paranoia. I want to know they exist. I could talk on the phone okay. I'm only being facetious here. We live in a day and age if we are going to seek created personas and things as long as journalism another question so this is one of my favorite questions your I. I'm as I WANNA ask you to do a a comprehensive profile of a public figure I had two options unlimited access to the figure him or herself or no access to the subject and unlimited access assist to the subjects friends co workers. I want no access to the person that one I want all the information. I don't want their version of events percent so why not win in hiring whatever the same you're right you're right. You're wrong if we about to do an ad I don't have for one of the job boards sites we're about to. I think we're actually with the copy right now. Somehow Chuck and Malcolm just read our copy you know and we're making nothing off of this. I guess I get that well certainly Neville Chamberlain should have never seen Hitlerite. I I mean do we think of Neville Chamberlain. Just trade telegrams with Hitler and says is your intention acts. My intention is just this okay. Well we believe the telegram. Well so what he really should have stayed home and finished my comp yes Right after the ending which is what Churchill did Churchill. Never met Hitler Church Redmond COMP and took it seriously so the man has written a manifesto of many many hundreds of pages in which he he lays out in excruciating detail his vision for the world one would think that should be rated very highly in any analysis of Hitler. The problem with beating someone face to face is not that that information is useless is that we overvalue it so you end up saying you. You're not it's like they have the look are is. The president. Loves to say the look. What does that mean? I was going to year. Bask- Basketball Fan. Yeah Yeah I is a great story along these lines. Quite Leonard is being drafted like twenty years old. The Seattle has the pick to. They could take them and they do a pre-draft interview with him and he comes in and he's so nervous he sweats his shirt and saddle seattle. GM says says. I don't want to. I don't want someone who is not cool under pressure now. They're just principle. No one is cooler under pressure and quiet turns earns out thousand percent percent. But secondly here's what he does is he overrated. We have a huge amount of data on Kauai. We have tape of every game. He's ever played eight and what happens. Is He meets off the basketball court where he's uncomfortable where he's wearing a suit which he's not accomplish. He's nineteen or the twentieth and what happens the GM ends up overrating that information and undervaluing the Chili relevant information and that is a very weekdays classic human tendency to it's not. It's that that the problem with gathering information is you don't assign appropriate weights to it. And and that's I think is what's going on with a lot of this when we're the reason we're so fooled by like made off have a chapter on. They have a theory about right which people get fooled easily. Oh Tummy they are used to exclusively So it makes sense that. I just think that there's a reason why you see wealthy. I get why made off was able to. I think he's able to. Hey I'm I only take a small group of people while while they people want to believe I believe there are no clue. I think I think that there are ways to tap tap in their egos narcissism and that is what made off did so well. I always love with the person I feel like. We're we're sort of hovering around him. The person that is not mentioned in your book at all likes to Brag how he wasn't taken by made off now it may be. He had no money to invest to actually give him actual cash into that but I believe made off succeeded by playing to the ego off the ivy elite small and all of that. I have a parallel rich person. Actually not why rich people specifically but why entrepreneurs are easily taken skin and that is that they have to so. I talked about this in book. This notion that we are hardwired to trust. And there's a good reason for that because it's easier easier to. I'm about to say the thoroughness in here. I feel like we're getting but But if you're an entrepreneur you're that in spades. You cannot successfully start start a company from scratch or or start any kind of massive grid from scratch unless you are a kind of master trustor. You're you have trust almost to excess. You can't funny you talk to on like real instruments people really take and they will tell you. They make enormous bets on people without doing. They don't have time energy whatever to do. They don't have a seven people to how to interview to find the person that they need to run the office. They just I literally. I like that person. Just do whatever it is or I'll come and Julia right. I Buy this and that and entrepreneur is willing to leave what is willing to do a leap of faith people because he needs people to take a leap of faith on on what they're doing two. So that's yeah there's a there's a self-fulfilling wiring. There's a it's funny about their nose. I once had this credibly interesting conversation. Like that's the next chapter. You didn't right in here you could have. I could've done as you could have done. Fire the one in the you know the whole house. This is a great book on that the Guy I had a conversation with one of the founders of say adobe maybe it was adobe could be a mixed up with another firm and he was really interesting a brilliant entrepreneur and he was talking about. How like many star Sophomore startups? They you know you would over promise you you would say I can deliver x product and you hadn't even you hadn't finished it yet. You weren't even sure it could work but you in the back of your mind you're like there's a fifty percent chance I compose out of the hat and if I can go and and if it doesn't I fail and like so they're used this notion that you would advance Kind of a hopeful goal. Even though you're not quite area so you WanNa you WanNa believe you believe it may not be intentionally lying or being misled but you want to believe you really really. You're and you're you have thought this to a million ways and you're like you've you've convinced yourself you know pull it off. That's the nature of a lot of software startups. The the problem with theranos is that there is a Pharma company behaving like a software startup. It's that she's she's actually playing by the rules of the valley but she's not in the valley right she's dealing with the FDA the FDA. He is a whole different animal than software and if the consequences and what's weird about to extend this all of the customers of software are completely completely familiar and comfortable with the notion of a bug so software is the only thing I know where almost by definition they deliver a faulty product. And and you're like I'm fine with it. Let's work together. I'll give you updates. Yeah you tell me what you're right. It is what I wish I could like. I wish I could successfully always say this isn't GonNa work completely. But hey start selling anyway. Minute edited as we go. This episode of meet. The press is a little buggy. Just got back to me and I'll do some fixes. This is next week. Yeah I promise. So she's she thinks she's making a product that's a little buggy and she advances her explanations ahead of the actual actual product like Oliver Peers. Left or Uber. Yeah they'd be like great. Here's more money. Yeah thank you for that too. Yeah yeah so in that sense I am. I advancing advancing a sympathetic explanation for their actually. Are I know would be so proud but I get what you're she was in the run industry. She's GonNa Runyon try. Let let me take it to my industry. Somebody read your book. How did they apply it to figuring out politicians because some IEP loves to say the one thing we have to remember about the voters they want to be lied to he goes to the same thing? ASPIRATIONAL WE WANNA believe. And when it comes to political leaders there's there's a point where we WANNA believe. There's some people that don't but people do WANNA. There's some people that want to. How do we discern what is the best way to discern between a politician who is blatantly lying in a politician who wants to be hopeful? That what they're telling us the true. Well I so Tim Levin. WHO's this marvelous psychologist whose work I rely on? He has done work on lying. And one of the reasons why he says is the strategy of essential of default belief which is what human beings engaging the reason that strategy works is lying. He's actually very a rare relying so there's my wife would say that every seven-year-old automatically well so so here we get into this actually funded digression so psychologists argue a lot about. What is what defines? What's a real lie? What's the difference and they? They would make a distinction stink tion between an untruth that is uttered to preserve social relationship. Is I didn't do it. I didn't do it mom. Yeah what what is your child. Say this he's trying to preserve of your his relationship with you. So what because the motive is pure the lie is less he he he loves you. You love him and he doesn't want to put that at risk ask so he's he's screwed up and you call them on it and he lies but he's out of a genuine desire isn't it just love Alabama. The real real lie is the the lie that has the intention of destroying our relationship right of of rending. Some kind of previously whole fabric. So if you limit yourself to realize there are a lot of liars allies in a better way of saying it is there are a a lotta lies in the world but not a lot of liars there are some people who are pathological and wild time most of us tell very few of the realize so I would end up in applying this to politics. What strikes me about politics is I would have expected in American or Canadian English politics there to have been far more or bad people than there are? I'm all by how small the number of genuinely bad actors is. I would say this the people I meet a lot of elected officials before they in my previous Gig. I used to meet them as they were running before they were running a lot more and I'd always say ninety five percent of them are doing it for the right reason I may. You may not agree with their reasons. But they're passionate about it and they're fairly honest people about it if they lie. They lie about their personal life because they're afraid of the public attention again. It goes to the Yes. Yes that relationship tried to protect relation trying to protect family members protect delicate. I always say look. There are people that come here. That are just griffey's and they're just going to make a buck and they're they're bad people a moral or immoral but most of them are start off not wanting to be corrupted. Think -rupt it but they don't want to be like I was what I look at the crowded democratic race. My truly honest position is I would take almost any of them. I think they're all they would all be fine with. Maybe one or two minor exceptions but Mutt. You know many of the ones pulling one percent. I'd be happy with him as president. I don't have a I have a simple test like. Okay Hey what will they. How will they handle changing facts? That's all I need to know at this point. Yeah yeah she said she goes. That's very good test. It's because we're terrible. All to digress. And I can't tell you that we've asked any of the correct questions of what the next presidency is actually going to be like. It's very possible. The next president is having to deal with India and Pakistan the entire time like we don't know my point is is that we don't so the only way we can test the medal of people is to try to figure out. How do they handle handle something? When when the facts change? And that's something. That's very hard to create a hypothetical. Yeah Yeah I do know one thing that is a debate is just about the worst. Yeah I think you can design. I think you can design a better way to do this but I don't know if the public wants it if that makes sense. Yeah Yeah I would. I'd like to either. There's three or four different ways I wanted to do this. And there's what's giving you activate. Oh well this is what I wanted to do with with all these people is I wanted to create twenty minute pods a four and just create and to spend twenty minutes. Is it visually world series of poker. You ever seen how they do it with multiple tables. Yeah but you stay. And maybe you spend twenty minutes on a table for the network television. But you have streams of all of them available number one so they're each actually to our conversations but it's groups of four with sooner and then maybe the next night you take the top six or or something like that and maybe you do try to put them all together. I don't know I'm not seeing any of that but certainly for first debate. I didn't want them all on stage. Together we're trying to figure out who they are and how they tick so split them up. Yeah so we can have many conversations at table so that would've been released to deal with the crowd. I was just trying to see. How do you deal with the crowd and and we have unlimited space to put video? So why do we limit ourselves to these to our windows and say you must do it this way like this is the part of linear television than I think we have to get over over. Yeah I want. My ideas is essentially take them tests that the U. WE create a scenario. So you said you said maybe they'll spend the next four years later on India Pakistan. Okay so one might be imagined. We right. United the two paragraphs Pakistan. We say you know it is January twenty fifth two thousand twenty to feel like you're designing L. set by India. India has just done X. tobacco vice versa. We laid out in in two paragraphs we give it to all of them at six o'clock one evening and we say by eight. Am tomorrow morning. I would like to have you need to give me a one hour long taped speech on what your administration would do. Do whatever you need between now and then but it's gotta be in by and this is what you're basically saying I don't care how many experts you can sell. I don't care if you have somebody else. Write the speech. Because we're trying to figure out. How do you handle that of a team? That's right we'll find out if you have a team work well together. We have no idea get plucked something from left field which are basically saying is this is how we decide who makes a potential good PhD student. Yeah right or who who should be teaching when we when you go through because 'cause you're almost creating murder boards aren't we. I don't the way we're doing. It isn't working that we now but this actually you know this a the thing about this about this kind of brainstorming about a better debate is that it is. It begins with the implicit understanding understanding that by both of us that it's this is hard and that was the the task of of having a twenty person field old and getting to know them is not something that can be done The traditional ways up the thing that's going to be done in the incredibly short period of time now doing commercial way. Yeah I mean I always say I'm stuck doing the things that I'm doing because we're not. We're a for profit enterprise and say this. Okay I mean there are good things to being a for profit enterprise and there are negatives that come with it and I promise you if you took away the for profit we'd have all sorts of new challenges. Yeah I mean this has been a dilemma for many journalistic. Yeah let's talk about the guy I I went through your index just to double check that I didn't miss him. Uh and you'll appreciate that the see of Al Qaeda and you've mentioned Osama bin Laden Bill Clinton Jimmy Carter George H W Bush gets Kafka of course gets it's a reference to notice that Mussa leaning I get I get to the tees and I don't see see the team you have. I danced around him. You have you watch. America are your Modern Day democracy and I feel like you should read author democracy in America. How do you explain trump? You explain why we fell for. Why America did this? You know I don't does it. Required first of all. Does it require special. Sometimes here's why I think there needs to be an explanation yet. I don't think the Democrats have come to an agreement as to what the explanation of sixteen was. I think half the party thinks it was stolen and I think the other half thinks they got stale they. Actually we need to get that answer. Yeah I think the Democrats don't know how to campaign against still I think that's why they're divided between the no answer a disruptor with more disruption or all my God that was too much disruption. We need to take a timeout. Yeah Yeah I'm I'm gonNA insist in the narrowest way possible I had a conversation with someone in Hollywood today. WHO said Who is putting out that disting- in the news that that Scarlett Johansson had made an offhand comment? That She thought that Woody Allen was actually a great filmmaker and quite him and then in the aftermath of that she got five movie offers in the next sort of twenty twenty four hours after getting destroyed per saying nice things about Woody Allen s on social media yes precisely because she got so his point was a whole bunch of filmmakers. Who Secretly Admire Woody Allen? Go she gets more than that more than that. A whole bunch of filmmakers who are waiting for a reason to engage in a backlash who are sick of that. The direction that this particular note in popular culture is gone. And I'm like Oh at last a female actress in Hollywood who is in towing the line who I feel comfortable with your Bill Simmons Listener. Aren't you on this. podcast bluffs. Osama he's he's about to explode on this issue you can just you just hear it in them. He won't do it because he knows the back. Because as somebody who has faced the twitter mob. I get like you're on the wrong side of that a couple times in your like. It's not worth it. But my God he's ready to explode. He's that person you're you're just riding up. You're just talking about I because I know bill very well. I'm not gonNA comment but my point is that I think we may underestimate the strength of the I think first of all I was tired of being told how to act and told what to do. Huge part of this has nothing to do with. The economy has nothing to do with like abortion of whatever it has to do with. This is a cultural moment where people are particularly older. People are are are fed up with this. What they see is this political correctness term for lack of a better phrase and go further? They believe they they weren't the racists number. One the boomers no there there. I think that's I think there's there's a lot to that in. Here was a man who is not afraid to speak his mind and and everything that we sometimes perceive as being trump's great weakness is if your mindset is I want someone who will stand up to popular culture to to popular culture is his strength the more he puts his foot in his mouth the more authentic he seems and the more successful he is. So it's like it's like I what always gets me is the failure of anti-trump people to understand that he is trump is strengthened by the very things that we think ought to week Kim weakening so let me ask the next obvious question that would come about trump to sort of the theme of your book. Which is this idea of truth telling? There's clearly people are willfully deciding. I'm just going to believe what he says. Yeah why do you think they're willing to do it for the music man right. He has a music capability but literally they have have a great. Bs Detector for the person to sell them a lemon of a car do they. That's the thing that maybe we don't that our our our desire and willingness to believe even things a ought to carry all manner of doubts. is is. He's really great. I mean that's we're hardwired do this and when someone has sort of captured initial trust is very difficult for them to lose it and he very powerfully and effectively spoke to some large swath of this country and they're not going to the Levin says that you will default the truth until the the pilot the evidence becomes so high. It's impossible to ignore so you may not have for use him as a parallel lots. It's a lots and lots and lots of people on Wall Street had doubts about made off but they did not come to the conclusion he was a Ponzi schemer until fifteen years later. Look at all the half the tours do you remember. Most of them that came out. How many people would you know in the circles would say? Oh yeah everybody knew right. which is the organization organization? I work for how many people said everybody knew but nobody but nobody knew the specifics. Yeah Yeah Yeah No. It's like it's like a I don't don't know I don't think he ripped trump represents in other words some kinds of some kind of special case. I think it's just part of the way in which we function in the world and our job is to build institutions institutions and practices that. Take that account for that weakness. Malcolm glad well always makes us think easily one of my favorite thinkers thinkers and amidst growing pile of evidence in the impeachment inquiry right. Now it'll be interesting to see which truth the country will default to. I'M GONNA pause there next up my conversation station with Voto Latino President Maria Teresa Kumar who shares the least told story of the two thousand eighteen election and what the future holds for a country for the growing population of Latino vote. You're listening to the chuck. Todd Casper meet the press. And we'll be back after the break and joining me now. Is Maria Teresa Kumar. She's the founding president and CEO Voto Latino Organization encourages young Hispanic and Latinos to become politically involved. And then some Maria Theresa good to see you. Thanks I want to get into frankly. Frankly a bit of a heavy story but before we do that I just tell me your story I migrated from Columbia was four years old and my mom would ship me back to Columbia every the summer and I was incredibly grateful to be part of this country because I knew intrinsically that I would have my destiny would have been defined there and so I drink the opportunity. Kool aid of America right away. I remember being nine years old and U. T. as saying a pledge allegiance to the flag and I was asked my teacher what we were grateful. Four weeks I went to a Catholic school. I raise my hand so I'm grateful because yesterday became an American citizen. I was nine and my teacher looked at me. Like who are you and nobody else in that class. It didn't mean anything to them but to me it meant that I had access to all this beautiful opportunity and part of it was because you've experienced life in Colombia. Exactly right now when you're going to Columbia that it was it was still in training. It was a country in transition. I it was hot. Yeah I was just GonNa say this is not. I don't want to presume your age here. It was hot but this is Columbia in the late Eighties Davies. It was hot and it was where this was a civil war. Whatever you WANNA call it? It was more akin to I was always that period and Columbia was always more Kintu when we would hear in the news Israel walking out the front door not not knowing if you're going to come back because right might be a bomb. That's exactly that's exactly what was at the time. It was And you know when you meet Colombians. Everyone's always happy. It's because they don't know if they have tomorrow and it was very back so true. What you just said? I grew up in a Miami. We've had a lot of a lot of metal out of Colombians over the. You're so right. There is this optimism. Becker comes through a Colombian American And that's an interesting and that's what you. Yeah that's what I expect. That's what I was raised with. And so when I found out the Latino for me it was very important because I just I had worked in Congress for two years of working specifically on international trade raided. My background is actually Internet international aid and Economics and I had gone to the Kennedy School and then when I was twenty eight years old. I saw this Ad. That said voter Latino Register to vote because I can't from Carmen Carmen Cameron Diaz and all these other celebrities and I loved it because I had been a political animal all my life I loved politics. I worked on campaigns and it wasn't until I was in my late twenties that I heard someone say out loud what I felt deeply inside and that was that was American. Everybody reminding me I was Latina and and I you know I am a proud enough but I was American and when I met Rosario Voto Latino was just a set of PSA's public service announcement campaign from MTV. The and she said what do you think. Can we do something with it and what I loved about. It is that it focused on young people in the Latino community long before you turn eighteen years old. You're making really big. Take decisions for your family whether it's translating for your parents on how to negotiate a lease or talking to an employer or talking to a doctor and so it was my experience any of that was the experience of millions of others Around me and as listed Latina No. It's so interesting you you put it in those terms in it is that that's it's been. My experience was my experience in Miami that the kids would would end up having to grow up faster absolutely. Yeah because of those just simple simple things like you had to go with your parents to help them register something at the City Hall exactly right or whatever it is and you're you're so right because it's the kids that we're we're already bilingual right well. And that's what it was the leadership simply because they knew the language and so you know I always say Alexander Cossio the reason that she was able to get the vote of so many of elders is that she represents millions of young people in this country. That have had to get the you get the responsibility but also the trust of their families and as a result she is I would say the model of so many of young Latinas out there. She's not she's not an exception in how she's been able to navigate her own community for heard heard leadership which you're describing was the same immigrant experience that German speaking strides had one hundred years ago for their parents and helping. Then it is. It's a reminder that this immigrant experience for Latinos is no different than the immigrant experience of every single ethnicity that that became in part of the American fabric. And it's it is is that is that language barrier exactly which also includes skin color differences if we're going to get to that yeah and educational socioeconomic but it's but what's what's beautiful and this is. I think why I do the work that I do is that we have to make sure that we're still part of that commitment right so the fact that you can have a generation in someone like will young Castro that his grandmother was was barely literate walked across the border and now he can run for president. Speaks to what we should should continue to be striving for and I think that is where a lot of our conversations and why I feel the countries of leaderless in helping shepherd us into this new you this new forum because my kids are seven and eight seven and five years old. My daughter technically represents the first majority minority country that means that we have to prepare our country for a very diverse group of Americans so that they can lead and they can also ensure that they are parts of all the power and we're failing that and that is detrimental to our country because if we do not have a competent group of Americans that can either lead in government or in Silicon Valley Alley or in media we often become we fall behind to the rest of the world. I deeply believe that in this country. We've always had the population. We needed an increasingly interglobal interglobal world. This is the population that we should be. Grooming whether we're chinese-american Polish American African American Latina magazine. This is the moment that we can really get everybody up. Level to level up to bring in the fruits of the future is a great line that you disuse which we have always had the population that we needed. You Know Barack Obama after the made a comment after the the last Olympics that I thought it was it was. It was a terrific comment. He didn't grounded grounded in politics could've easily grounded in the politics immigration. He says you know there's a reason why America is always number one or number two in the metals no matter what Olympics six we had and it's because we come from everywhere all right. I wanted to start that way because I want to get into what happened in Milwaukee and it because as I'm concerned about a few things here and I'm curious where where your head is Adam. This this is of course referring to the incident when a An American citizen of Peruvian descent. I believe I guess it got it back and forth with another gentleman from Wisconsin. -SCONSIN this option of Wisconsin A dispute over a parking space and suddenly the Peruvian man's Skin color mattered To the person any threw battery acid Adam and it was this is a hate crime pure and simple based on his ethnicity. I'm still waiting for the president to say anything and I'm sure I don't know if you want the president say anything or not but has there been enough national leadership on this issue zero. I mean zero and that's what's astounding. So the back story is that he parked discard the John. The other gentlemen wanted the car space and I guess he didn't move. He came back out and he did move or he didn't his car reva corner. Basically the the guy was trying this gentleman. He tried to all right yes. He apparently moved two blocks. Okay this was caught on camera. I know so and the the other ones will go back to your country right and he's like I'm a US citizen and at least nineteen years. I think he threw battery acid. But I think the most heartbreaking piece that I had to re to as I read the story and watch the videos that he had to go to his children to Sun and explain what happened to him and as a parent. This idea that you are not only not able to be safe by that is that what does that translate for what you're communicating to your to. Your family is really tough. But but I think that the this is all very real with the president in office hate crimes among Latinos amount Jewish Americans among African Americans in my Asians Muslims have skyrocketed. This is true a bullying it now is among in the Mon- in Mung the Latino community. It's the number one mental health issue that parents have concerns with their kids. It's it's there's a friend of mine WHO's Muslim and her our son. This is an Arlington County. Public School was at in the lunchroom called a terrorist. Yeah and it really setback grades. He didn't tell his mother the incident until after the school year so she couldn't and by the time she could engage the leadership of the school because their kid didn't didn't WanNa tell her well it's embarrassing. It's but it was in you know it's it's again Arlington County. This is this is not a a red enclave of anything. or any sort of Maga- hat Wisconsin. Right I mean I think that's the challenge is that we're seeing it everywhere. I mean even the even though in little town where I grew up in the local middle school during trump's election was spray painted with go back. Go back to your country. Where fifty percent of the kids were Latino denote? They were Americans right and I think this is. This is an incredible leadership moment. Explain that this transition that we're experiencing creates possibilities for us. The people a yellow go back to go back home or the descendants of people who were told to go back home. I'd go back home literally. Their grandparents were told. Go back to the country you came from when they came over well and I I like to remind folks I mean we were. We were established by religious refugees. Right like that is that is our origin at ah for better or worse and the I think the challenge right now with these conversations is that we are turning off the excitement of a generation of young the Americans who feel that patriotism has been overtaken by the nationalist right. And that's a danger because we want folks to be bought into our possibility Eh. But if they're not getting the if they're not getting the resources they're not getting addressed and their pain is not gonNA address. We can't do that. Look let's let's be a bit crankier. About what fear campaigns do veer pay and pains. Don't motivate people to vote they motivate people not to vote. Don't they explain. Some people might think. Oh this fear campaigns going to inspire more. It looks to me like it's a scare tactic. It's an absolute scare tactic and it was interesting. It's completely dubious because they try to. They a lot of what we're starting to see in social media and social media feeds for example my staff I think I shared with you chuck. They're starting to receive a stuff from the from the right talking about socialism and how the Democrats are bad. And so they tried equivocate. These policies as kind of neutrally both you being courted but in a perverse way. Now it's more of a stay at home you're getting courted in Don't come out right because if you think we're bad well they're gonNA send you back to the country that you your family may have come from what they've experienced right so it kinda neutralizes. The vote The Democrats are doing the same the thing on the Republican side. They're trying to neutralize the Republicans from coming out But it's not a not a healthy tactic or long term strategy. If what you believe if you believe that are the underpinnings of our democracy isn't massive participation right so for both of these parties to be up to those dirty tactics for the work that I do. It's not only more difficult difficult but I really believe that. The system works for the people who occupy and our job is to occupy these young people into the boat voting booth. It is tough in politics. Do not have an aspirational final message. And I feel like now this is I have. Do you feel as if that the Spanish community right now. Particularly the politically engaged Hispanics SPANDEX. Feel as if there's a fear campaign. This is considering Paso batter this Milwaukee incident. I just our in our job job is to counteract I was just going to say what you view your messaging to be. What do you view? And here's something else who could step up to fill the leadership void right now. Is it have to be a presidential candidate or are there others. I think it has to be a combination. I think that it has to become a nation but I think it has to be someone that can speak to do the totality of Americans for it to be effective and for it to be smart And in this moment when we talk about the fear tactics they're real because people who have done harm to Latino community has connected directly to the voting block you mentioned El Paso in El Paso the creed that this man who decided that he was going to jump in ten hours and drive down and kill 'em 'cause maximum pain in his creed. He said that he wanted to Tamper Down Hispanic voting block. You can't get more explicit it and so we're hearing the messages but what we need to do is Talk Mano Mano with the Community and take a lot of lessons that we borrowed from the Civil Rights Movement and that we borrowed from California after proposition. Eighty seven where we were experiencing very similar heightened tension not as much direct violence and and that was organized. And speak about what happens. When you participate California Up to twenty five years ago it was a swing state and then Pete Wilson decided that he was gonna put it on the backs of our families and we decided to organize and mobilize and now California's solidly blue But that was Republicans fault I would say this is the Republicans. They should be talking to people's aspirations of why they moved their family here for many purposes. Let's bring this to close on this question. which is You're you're you're a voter If anything your vote engagement voter registration organization Voto Latino. I think I know you've said this before. You have a concern that it's it's not the Democrats are going to be complacent about the Latino vote. It's that they aren't going to be fully engaged enough in vote that it's it's that there isn't a Enough registration campaigns isn't enough outreach. Who's doing the best job that you've seen so far? Let's instead of focusing on the negative of this presidential presidential campaigns who is checking a box and who is actually trying to do more than just check a box interesting. When I look at the political debates? Or whoever's going to win I would say that the majority of Democrats Reg Democrats are GONNA go out and vote for whoever The job is to ensure that you keep the white suburban moms that came out during the midterms. You want to keep them in your camp and you WanNa grow where the marketplaces you have. Twelve million young people that have turned eighteen since the last election. Twelve million more than boomers for the first time so we're going to have the largest generation that is the youngest generation that is under registered. And you have exactly fifteen million Latinos that are under register. This are the only two marketplaces you can go to go right so nothing is going to go where the voters are and that is in the south interesting. It's all on the south. It's all in the south. I mean Arizona. Virginia Georgia Texas North Carolina. It is in the south. The fact that say the least tilt story of the two thousand eighteen. Election's there are so many wins Arizona purple. No one talks about that. Not only is it is it. Is it like Virginia's it just stopping by purple on its way to it was in. Hov Lane from two thousand now. I mean it went from red to blue and twenty years a big. That's a fast change in exchange huge you change and this is what's wild Texas not so far behind Texas two point five million literally a quarter of all eligible young Latino voters in that state and they're scared and they're angry what. Why is there all this money being spent on other programs and not on voter registration and I mean it feels like I'm always surprised at how? How underfunded voter registration campaigns are in Texas in general? You and me. Both I think part of the reason is that this is this talks more about the mechanics. People often times they lean church what they know and if you look at the political establishment from both parties most of the consultants and most of the operatives are all from the Midwest that is what they now oh so true. That's a fascinating point about it. It is amazing. How many operatives both parties have Iowa experience but that's what they know right so they keep leaning into it instead dead of actually saying well? This is where the future is and if there is if Virginia Colorado Nevada of recent history are any indication of where the future is it is through so young people is through Latinos is through suburban. MOMS always a pleasure to speak with my friend and colleague Maria Theresa Kamar. When we come back I'll be joined by Jonah? Goldberg and Steve Hayes both formerly of conservative publications National Review and Weekly Standard respectively. The pair discussed the future of the conservative movement and the Arab trump and their new digital media company the dispatch which is aimed at tackling. The quote worrisome trends and right wing journalism from the inside. You're listening to the chuck. Todd cast us from meet the press. Hey It's Chris as you know sometimes it's good to you just take a step back from the day-to-day onslaught of news and take our broader. Look at the issues. That's what I'm doing each week on my podcast. Why is this happening? Were exploring topics ranging from school segregation to climate change. The way that I think of it is climate. Change will be to the twenty first century. What Madeira not west of the nineteenth century? It'll be the central subject of questions. It's about economic justice. Everything that you care about in the world will be affected by climate and digging deep with guests uniquely qualified to analyze issues from mass incarceration to race relations as you know for the first first time in our history at the national level whites are on the verge of losing their majority status in twenty years. And I think it's no coincidence that our politics are getting more tribal. Join me for. Why is this happening? New episodes every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts? By the way there are things that happen in I in in over sometimes in trump day. And you're like boy that never got traction remember when he He's getting ready to meet with the UN about six weeks. They're going to go. Where's where's my favorite dictator? Yeah yeah it just says yeah. He says at everybody like we're supposed to pretend Egypt is not a dictatorship. Didn't get the memo Mr President by the way those are my favorite trump moments where he actually pierces a veneer that we should pierce el-sisi spectator. I was literally just going to say the same thing I mean. This is the key that's part of the kind of disruption that trump will do. That's good I think dispensing with all of the focus grouping all of the consultant driven you know. Bs that I find really refreshing now. He replaces it with stuff that I don't necessarily love. That's the if you had if you had an ideological conservative. Who Was it? Who who who had sort of a world you and had given a lot of thought to these things and then did that kind of disruption that would be ideal of you True Story I. I wrote a column basically making this point during the primaries where I said the one thing we can all agree on about trump. He doesn't sound like you consulted a focus group right and trump circled the paragraph one paragraph. That could be in context seen as a complement and wrote me a note on the copy from the New York Post that he the ad read saying. It's been a great trip together. Thanks so much clear that he doesn't read someone pointed out that passage and that's the only one that he cared about. But you know the the disruption stuff I mean the he has these tells where he he because he only has. I mean I remember talking to Charles Krauthammer about this. He only seems to have a functioning vocabulary of about two three thousand words and which is why he'll say do things like very very very very very very right. That's beautiful that's a person who's lacking in adjectives. Beautiful transcript are African Americans have never ever ever ever ever ever ever had it. So bad in two thousand sixteen was an interesting sort of state Matt Right and and so I think sometimes what's what would seen as disruption and as a philosophical thing is really based on kind of ignorance and he's going to China shop and that's the thing that frustrates me so much about the arguments that we have if you want argue about forever wars and take the Rand Paul Position and the isolationist deserted find those are arguments that we have. We've had those organs for thirty years if you were serious serious about those things. You Still WanNa bug out a series of the way you did right. That was incompetence. And what a lot of the trump supporters do as they rush to these high flown thirty thousand foot philosophical arguments and Ben them to what actually happened which was that trump on the spur of the moment screwed. His own staff is own the advisers and our allies on a whim. And that's not something. If Pat Buchanan we're presidents dates he would want to pull out a Middle East too but he'd negotiate with the Kurds and the Turks Zinni figure out a way to do it. Matters resigned and there was no policy implementation since that. Well it's like it's like one of the things that I like to remind some I'm close folks close to me and I always say you know. Be careful who you're criticizing in the trump world. I said some day. The hero of the story is going to be somebody. You don't agree with and it turns out John. Bolton Jeff sessions are guys that are maybe share some of the president's beliefs on some things but they actually believe in the Republic and they've even a process process and they believe in a system and they believe in persuasion. Yeah I mean you've you've seen this again and again I obviously. We're waiting to see what John Bolton says both about the John Bolton's Donald Trump's John Dean. What the hell does that mean? It's going to be like Scooby Doo integrate. He's like he takes on John both. Save April Republic. Okay Rachel like handle that joke with my liberal friends. I'm like are you prepared to celebrate the the hero that is John Bolton if he is the person that essentially is darth vader that throws the emperor staff. I was obsessed best with Bolton saying during the Korea. North Korea negotiations yes that we're looking closely at the Libya model. I think you might have said on your show. You said it was a total auteuil. I think he did it on purpose. It was a total monkey. Were at John and I remember asking everybody about this. This is obvious to me that he because North Koreans know xactly. What a second we have our way and get nuclear weapons from you and we're going to kill you and destroy your regime and it was interesting? That trump months later when he fired Bolton brought that up when he was cast on them he says you know he causes a lot of problems with that Libya model thing and Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. And that's the reason why I I've known John. Bolton longtime time is used to be reminded me. I used to see him basically collecting his mail. The Fox News Green Room. 'cause he was always there and the difference between Bolton and Pompeo is is that Bolton. I'm bad with the sports metaphors. Compared to you guys pay is playing man demand whatever trump needs that's now he adjusts. POMPEII was playing a position. And he's playing the Boltons. Playing position is wing zone. He was doing the stuff that the job required correct and for his own goals but but he wasn't trying to like bend. Everything and I think it's part because Bolton there any plans to run for office in Peyot does let's talk about what you are doing. It's called the dispatch but it to me. It feels like this is. This is sort of the next phase of what I assume is going to dominate the next decade. which is who what is is what is it? What is an American conservative? And what does the conservative movement stand for right like. We don't know what some what some people tell me is conservatism. I always tell oh the MIC. That's not that's not was my definition. That's what trump defines it. What give me the elevator? Pitch of the dispatch. Yeah basically it's it's a conservative Media Company Digital Media Company. That will I mean Jonah has described often as sort of sane conservatism. What what we WANNA do is have an argument based on facts logic and reason where we go out and report things we wanna find stuff out? This is not sort of a hot take factory. We are not not mere opinion slingers. We've got plenty of opinions. We're happy to share them. But we WANNA go and make arguments and try to persuade people and come at this with sort of a world world. Do that is closer to kind of Ronald Reagan style can say outlined. GimMe the ideology that you're sort of if you guys are under an an ideological ideological umbrella would you would. What does that look? I mean I would call it classical liberalism. But we're not. I mean we're not going to impose an ideology. We WanNa have some of these debates okay in our pages and in our newsletters. There's an honor podcasts. And so we're not going to say to people you know one thing I would love to have. Actually when we when we position NATO type of thing you know what I mean by that like position on multilateral latter agreements from you like NATO yeah but all things being okay we're pro-nato but if somebody but if somebody wanted to to argue that we should get out of NATO Somebody who brought it's sort of an intellectual argument to the kind of case that that Donald Trump has come close to making several times. That'd be a great podcast. We'd love to have what's that allows for that discussion so one because you're is much more of a political junkie than I am you but so you have the memory of this stuff. One of sort of weird models of it is really the New Republic of the late eighties and early nineties. Right you knew everyone for with the exception of like say Fred Fred Barnes and a K and Krauthammer after he became more conservative. But you know basically everybody. There was liberal. You knew where they came from but left of center it is l.. We didn't know what the the different degrees of lives. But what you did know was that the writers were honest about their biases. And you knew where they're coming from and I'm not saying that every single thing Binghaman republic back then was great but it was a fantastic magazine and one of the things that made them special was. They weren't afraid to call bs on their own side and they gave a lot of grief that elected elected Democrats one of the problems that we've got these days with they still let publisher dictate to many things. That's fine I mean this is to me is something that I'm I'm I'm struggling with it. Every news organization which is to try to figure out how to keep one person for me Steven our partner. We own fifty percent of this thing. So we're okay for right now. I mean that but nothing wrong with that and you should. You're the publishers. But that is when the new republic we started to go off the reservation when when he was more worried about Al Gore's presidential campaign. Then that's what about the future of liberal liberal and that's that's sort of proves my point is that so much of I think media in general but right wing media in particular you're because the parties are so weak lot of institutions of filled the void. And they're doing they're playing partisan functions when they should not be and that's true the NRA and unplanned parenthood. That's true of how the social media and Cable News world has emerged and it doesn't Cable News and social media the Cable News now as we see it in his people is social media television. There's a lot of that and I agree. And and that doesn't mean everything that partisan media does is back correct. Opposition research kind of stuff is fine but we you know I've never given much of a damn about myself Republican. I really care about going myself. A conservative cash. And so we think there's a lot of good journalism reporting to do on the right. That isn't in service to a politician or two apart cheerleader. Peter Booster is. It doesn't do anybody any good if you're going if you're writing things I mean that's the those are the economic incentives of the current media landscape right and this is the problem. Is that the economic incentives trump. I mean look. This is my issue with with facebook. Is it in all of social media. Is that particularly twitter more so than actually facebook twitter twitter entices negative and entice. Phony and entices is exaggerating it. Rewarding sure monetize is it and so the the the model is my concern is is that the model to communicate. Information is both monopolized by social media and has been warped so add to that agree with that. Add to that the the the the models inside media organizations themselves. It's the same thing I mean. You get more clicks if your digital media company you get more clicks if you publish stuff that your audience this is GonNa love is going to go. Viral is outrageous. You know if you've listened to nationals park say lock them up or if you can do a Dan Crenshaw owned Ao. See the and you're like that people are GonNa Click on that if you're if you're trying to monetize volume and you're trying to monetize scale that's what you do so we're doing the opposite of that so we're not going to have ads. We we're going to be almost all subscription newsletters and podcasts. It'll be ads on podcast. PUCK are different Ryan. We're not GONNA do ads on the website. We you for the time being or not GonNa do sponsorships in newsletters and we are trying to build a subscription based business where people can come and things are going to slow down a little bit too. We're we're we're not you're never gonNA come to our website which will at least at launch in January will publish probably three or four articles. By the way ain't nobody goes to websites. Correct information comes to them. Well this is. This is the other thing that we're trying to do. were buying into this. This idea that people want stuff coming to them so we're focusing on newsletter but we think that this model allows us to to sort of keep the editorial objectives that that we want and and it's consistent with though also just improves the user experience. Yeah you visit some websites some good websites just the barrage of pop up videos and an and under videos. And where's that volume coming from. My you know that kind of we just think there are a lot of people who were exhausted with that and to actually be able to read something that is four reader is this is going to provide value so to me most undercover thought topic that we have that we don't particularly to me. I think the conservative movement should be consumed with us. And I expect you guys to be consumed with this. which is what happens on January? Let's assume that the data's correct and that the president is not going to win reelection. We don't know whether I've different theories of the case whether it's a small win big win. There's all sorts of you know. Do the Republicans hold the Senate. When that's one thing? Do they. Not all but nobody. Nobody seems to have accepted the idea that that if Donald trump loses I can't believe the amount of people when I say well if Donald trump loses he's probably running again in two twenty twenty four and I'll get people say what are you talking and I'm like well. What do you think he's going to do? My point. Is this the future of what the conservative movement looks is like is is going to be harder to see even after January twentieth twenty twenty one no yes and no I mean. I don't think I'm not going away. It doesn't matter if you win or lose. Trump is here to stay twenty twenty one and the question is how are we going to navigate eh locks also one of the things I truly worry about is on what terms he goes away right if he the president in exile if he says the election was stolen fourteen sees the president and all. That seems. You can't say that percents zero which is scary so I I that stuff really worries me. I do think though that after. He's out of office if he loses in twenty twenty which I think still is likely might take on? The election has been for very long time if you look at the numbers. There's no way trump can win. But the Democrats can lose their ways they can blow it and but the number of people we're GONNA come out and start telling stories about what it was really like in there because he oh that's interesting you man the loyalty so you think after it went the minute people. We'll re thinking of ding-dong witch's dead. I cannot tell tales out of school of there's I think there's going to be a different telltale telling a big thank you to Joan own and Steve Longtime Pals of mine. I hope you've enjoyed this special edition of the Chuck Todd cast from press. Today's episode was produced by Justice Screen. Matt Rivera's our senior producer for digital vote and John Recess our executive producer Steven ties. The head of podcast embassy news and the theme music is composed by spoke media hype. Chuck Todd you can catch meet the president daily on MSNBC every day at five two PM on the west coast or big show every Sunday morning. Thanks for listening and until we upload again it's Josh Megawatts from dateline. Do you need your true crime. Fix on the go. They line episodes. Those are now available in podcasts. You can listen in the car or on the beach or wherever the summer. Takes you mysteries with a twist from dateline. Subscribe now so you don't miss an episode.

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Jonah Goldberg, Stephen Hayes and Monica Alba: The "boos" heard around the world

The Chuck ToddCast: Meet the Press

1:00:34 hr | 1 year ago

Jonah Goldberg, Stephen Hayes and Monica Alba: The "boos" heard around the world

"One of those weeks in Washington on the one hand news continues to come out of the impeachment investigation the latest is that the beautiful perfect transcript of president. Trump's phone call with Ukrainian Presidents Alinsky tell us from Washington on Chuck Todd this is Chuck Todd tasked it's been a another day by Steve Hayes and Jonah Goldberg there the duo behind a new media company called the dispatch it's a platform for conservatives to gather who still feel like there is a conservative let's talk about news of the week and this which is and I wanNA start it this way Steve as your obsession of national security I know for a while and what better we have these guys on because we're going to talk to impeachments past and present and maybe a little bit about the Media Business Gentlemen welcomed movement even if Donald Trump has hijacked everything else whether you want to call them never trumpers trump skeptics or human scum which I believe John is your preferred our and you certainly have untucked any one of the sponsors of my podcasts is untuckit modeling behavior and we'll never more effective way to do it yeah no question look I think I think trump does deserve some credit for for presiding over this operation anytime you have to make that call process trying to take aim at the Republicans best defense these days meanwhile congress trying to show that it can walk and Chew Gum at the same time with major hearings in the last few days from thanking their lucky stars president trump exists It's been a lot over the way we killed Abu Bakar Alba Daddy Oh by the way I'm in this raid almost got ruined by the president's rash decision I mean I think anytime you have a president who presides over an operation like this did his policies speed spate basically is this because of him or in spite of him that we ended up doing this because the more we're learning the more you realize people who are thankful for impeachment including the CEO of Boeing and the CEO facebook Mark Zuckerberg both of them did get hammered capital In both of whom are the right away with the untuckit guys clearly are for the let's just say the guy that doesn't jog anymore it's all for if you don't like how you look at a Tux shirt I mean then call us yeah so it's really on brand for them to be works it works for us all right one he deserves some credit I thought that about Barack Obama gave him a lot of credit I wasn't otherwise much of a fan of his terrorism Paul's what did you think of his Oh well wired you are in on all of these things the capture of Al Baghdadi is this something that the president deserves credit for or both of you thanks for having a straight to beer it's totally are entrepreneur the entrepreneurial journalists which means you're you look Unshaven House of Obama speech was very effective quiet to the point we are the the mightiest military power in the world. We can do these things we can we can come and kill you in the night and I've said Thomas was three minutes and thirty seven seconds and trump's I think was forty eight minutes was the EGOMANIAC yeah politics by the way yeah his his I thought his speech was it's not an easy call to make you do something that you're GonNa get the blame if it goes badly that's right that's right that's what made the Obama thing like well helicopter why why do Republicans in the foreign policy establishment see right see how disturbing al-Qaeda well the decade is almost up and we have certainly mourn yet more yeah and and Al Qaeda is still strengthening and growing I mean they're actually expanding you don't think about where they're gonna go weird things on the Ukraine Syria thing I think part of it is that Monica it was my name in high school so why would I abandon it now whatever you WanNa call them a break from our usual journalists discussion and just hear from Stephen John Server right and so this whole you we don't know where the stuff with trump is gonna go if he picks on when you start pulling on threads went at John Brennan then Obama's top counterterrorism adviser actually gave a speech at the Woodrow Wilson Center in which she said this next decade we will see the demise the ministry was every single time there's another terror attack they had to say it's the remnants or some lone wolf or disgruntled and they created this real anger among concern come and kick the bleep out of out of Isis he deserves credit I think for overseeing broadly overseeing that operation my main concern now bad about that at the same time the Siri thing allows a lot of Republicans to say hey look I'm not in lockstep with withdrawn billy defense saying my idea of strong smart foreign policies the have the Kurds do a lot of the fighting for us we made them all these promises and then we screwed them and a lot of people I think morally feel prolong speech explaining what exactly the wrong wrong thing to do no I'm talking about Bronco Oh hito sorry they didn't talk about Osama bin Laden whimpering and cry instead they were they were into this narrative that the warriors over it was managed to the to shrink the tumor don't worry about it anymore and then the narrative that they had to stick to for the rest of the creatives who kept saying why won't you use the word terrorism won't Jihad you get that is the atmosphere that got brought us Benghazi right without Benghazi you don't find out about Hillary's email that publicly yeah no it's a good question I just one quick sort of parallel or alternative history point on the previous thing recall they're to one in Turkey and the influence that the president has their see the disturbance there and don't see it with Ukraine or at least don't want to express what presence out Baghdadi hanging out in an al Qaeda correct controlled part of northwest Syria which to me was a huge moment joan it's matter a little bit with the Kurds this is I think I feel like this is the mujahedeen all over got yeah when also just have everyone from Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham for ten years has to resign right the second time they have to say Mr President we need to protect the oilfields by the way what do we make of the fact that essentially they're telling him a we need something and what the mistake Obama made was miss was was misunderstanding the killing of the the leader the killing of Bin Laden with the death of the movie criticizing him on this stuff but on the Ukraine is it really that big a deal and even though I think in a perfect world the Siri thing is just as impeachable Ukraine thing the way impeachments actually work down we saw Jimmy Carter that ended his presence right right so I think he deserves he deserves credit for that reason and look this was a stated objective of his campaign remember he was GonNa the Siri thing they it is an opportunity first of all on the merits it's just really bad right I mean we can just be clear about that right no or trump's just taken by one what's your I mean it certainly could be could be the ladder right we strongman we've seen get all the details that the the oil thing is going to turn out to be in effect a sigh up too strong a word this is all about convincing trump don't you wanna protect the oil and he says Oh yeah I want to protect the oil okay we can have some trips in Syria yeah how disturbing that so I think when the history of all this is written pick up on Steve's point the Obama Administration was bought into this idea eh the killing of bin Laden is dead GM is alive but that was aided by them in a certain way and wants to be confused for one of them that when they make an ask he wants to show off and say the sure I can do that 'cause I'm I'm medically the Ukraine things impeachable serious and what's funny about that is I'm sorry I I am very I I don't like to go down to many rabbit holes because I think too many journalists have regret how to articulate this theory there are people who hang out with movie stars right and they WanNa start thinking that there are movie star to that they're famous there's a thing about trump that he is so enamored with strong men and they're they're also doggedness and in so intimidate anything more than is already apparent it just seems twice now jona aired one has a call with trump and he's like yeah let's get Syria the first time well we're saying Nice things about saying things private about him he likes that if they treat the United States well that's almost secondary in some respects me I want to see the transcripts why does the air to want power over trump is is I just there is something we don't either we don't all in the movie the paper where he's explaining Glenn close so that just because you're hanging out with the rich and powerful doesn't mean you're one of them and people start overspending I think president you know with this affinity for strongman almost regardless of ideology regardless of how they treat the United States doesn't shrink if they treat president trump I am in fact the man the man right and by the way I'm rich too but it's it's a chicken or egg question remember he was doing this during the primaries for that famous that famous entourage like turtle like Oh yeah or like people hang out with really rich people they start thinking that they should live like rich people to that's usually when politicians I think it was a morning show appearance where he was praising Putin for for taking such a strong for Jilin journalist still you know by the way forever ever ever ever ever had it so bad in two thousand sixteen was an interesting sort of statement right and and so I think sometimes what's count what would prescrip- right and trump circled the paragraph one paragraph that could be in context seen as a complement and wrote me a note on the copy Mr President by the way those are my favorite trump moments where he actually pierces a veneer that we should pierce Taylor I was literally just going to say the same thing I mean i`Ma leader like you I'm as strong as you are I'm not interesting not running just one of three branches of one of our fifty-six governments in this country he's with Kim Jong UN you've seen it with with air to one I think would be another primary example so I don't know I mean I'd love to see the transcripts to I'm not sure they'll tell us you know that I find really refreshing now he replaces it with stuff that I don't necessarily love that if you had if you had an ideological conservative to these high flown thirty thousand foot philosophical arguments and Ben them to what actually happened which was that trump on the spur of the moment and true story I wrote a column basically making this point during the primaries where I said the one thing we can all agree about trump he doesn't sound like he consulted a phone seen as disruption as a philosophical thing is really based on a kind of ignorance and he's eligible China shop and that's the thing that frustrates me so much about the I I always thought the bog McDonald's scandal was a scandal of everybody's get all of my donors are getting rich how come I don't have money right there's a great speech by Robert Duvall but on the the the disruption stuff I mean the he has these tells where about the oil now all of a sudden he's like this guy really is about the oil and so is that on the theorem on the thing about trump and his relationship with strongmen I tried from the New York Post that he had read saying it's been a great trip together thanks so much clear that he doesn't read someone pointed out that passage and that's the only one that cared about he he because he only has I remember talking to Charles Krauthammer about this he only seems to have functioned vocabulary of about two three thousand words and celebrate the hero that is John Bolton if he is the person that essentially is darth vader that throws the emperor it is just one of these things that trump understands it's very sad for some for conservatives in the last twenty years arguing that neoconservative foreign power or was it about the oil of who was it who who who had sort of a world you at had given a lot of thought to these things and then did that kind of disruption that would be ideal view remember what mission accomplished this I mean it certainly feels like that Barack Obama did that in may have to the net two thousand eleven and which is why he'll say things like very very very very very very that's that's a person who's lacking in adjectives beautiful transcript or African Americans have I was obsessed with Bolton saying during the Korea North Korea negotiations yes that we're looking closely at the Libyan model I think he might have said on your show said on a couple of hundred if you're serious about those things you still wouldn't have bugged out a series of the way you did right that was incompetence and what a lot of the trump supporters do as they rush pump Heo is that Bolton you know I'm bad with sports metaphors compared to you guys Pompeii is playing man whatever trump needs that's now he adjusts some close folks close to me and I always say be careful who you're criticizing trump said some day the hero of the story is going to be somebody Jank they're faking it they're faking trump the oils are not unimportant but they're not that important port and our relationship with Kurds was much more important but this is something busy at six weeks they're going to go where's my favorite dictator yeah it just parts and says yeah he says it everybody's like we're supposed to pretend Egypt is not a dictatorship didn't you unknown John Bolton longtime he's he's calling my at a I I used to see him basically collecting his mail the Fox News Green Room because he was always there and the difference between Bolton and to me it feels like this is this is sort of the the next phase of what I assume is going to dominate the next decade which is who when he fired Bolton brought that when he was casting shade on 'em he says you know causes a lot of problems with that Libya model thing and Boba and that's the reason why wh- what is what is it what is an American conservative and what does the conservative movement Stanford right like we don't know what some what some people tell me as conservatives yeah basically it's a it's a conservative media company Digital Media Company that will Jones has described it often as sort of sane concerning Libya model exactly what we have our way and get nuclear weapons from you we're going to kill you and destroy your regime and it was interesting that trump months later don't agree with and it turns out John Bolton Jeff sessions guys that are maybe share some of the the president's belief on some things but they actually believe in the Repub ages and in our newsletters and honor podcasts and so we're not going to say to people you know one thing I would love to have actually when when we have a position on NATO type of thing you know what I mean get out of NATO somebody who brought it's sort of an intellectual argument to the kind of case that that Donald Trump has come close to making several times that'd be great take factory we are not mere opinions lingers we've got plenty of opinions were happy to share them but we wanna go and make arguments and try to persuade people and come in click and they believe in a process and they believe in system and they believe in persuasion I mean you've you've seen this again obviously we're all waiting to see what John Bolton I think happened it in sometimes in on a trump day in your life boy that never got traction remember when he he's getting ready to meet with el-sisi up at the UN with the Kurds and the Turks and he figured out a way to do it madness resigned and there was no policy implementation since then it's like one of the things that I like to remind arguments that we have if you are you forever wars and take the rand Paul position and the isolationist blizzard fine those are argues that we have about it we've had those organs for thirty years he wasn't trying to bend everything that and I think it's part because button there any plans to run for office and Pompeo does let's talk about what you guys are doing it's called the dispatch gave a lot of grief that elected Democrats one of the problems that we've got these days with they still let a publisher dictate to me thanks yeah that's fine you know what I mean and this is to me Zor under an a an ideological umbrella would you would what does that look I mean I would call classical liberalism but we're not we're not going to impose an ideology we want to have some of these debates okay in Tisza what what we WANNA do is have an argument based on facts logic and reason where we go out and report things we wanna find stuff out this is not sort of a hot and I'm not saying that every single thing and then republic back then was great but it was fantastic magazine and one of the things that made them special was they weren't afraid to call bs on their own side and the again nothing wrong with that and you should you're the publishers but that is when the new republic started to go off the reservation when when he was more worried about Al Gore's President Buddha's own staff is own advisers and our allies on a whim and that's not something have Pat Buchanan we're pressing on states he wanNA pull out a Middle East boards to but he'd negotiate this is the key that's part of the kind of disruption that trump briefly through let's good I think dispensing with all of the focus grouping and all of the consultant driven well it wasn't complete after all there is something to those ellipses at the same time Democrats are giving Republicans what they ask for a vote to clarify some steps in the impeachment inquiry and media in particular because the parties are so weak lot of institutions have filled the void and they're doing they're playing partisan functions when they should not be with the exception of like say Fred Barnes and Kate and Krauthammer after he became more conservative but you know basically everybody there was liberal you knew where they came from but says both about Donald Trump's John Dean what the hell does that it's going to be like a scooby Doo in six in pay was playing a position he's playing the boltons playing obsessions playing zone he was doing the stuff that the job required correct and for his own goals but but oh campaign that's about the future of liberal liberal and that's that sort of proves my point is that so much of think media in general but right wing so I always tell them I'm like that's not that's not was my definition that's what trump defined what give me the elevator pitch at the dispatch they were up to center it will allow you to sell we didn't know what different degrees of liberals but what you did know was that the writers were honest about their biases and you knew where they're coming from right like position on multilateral agreements like NATO yeah but all things being okay we're pro-nato but but if somebody wanted to argue that we should and I am in but you have the memo stuff one of the sort of weird models of it is really the New Republic of the late eighties and early nineties right you knew everyone four there's something that I'm I'm struggling with at every news organization which is to try to figure out how to keep one person Stephen our partner we own fifty percent of this thing so we're okay for right now I was a total I think he did it on purpose it was a total monkey after remember asking everybody about this this is obvious to me that he because the North Koreans no this with sort of a a world view that is closer to kind of Ronald Reagan style conventions outlined give me ideology that you're sort of if you got God save the Republic Okay Rachel like handle that like I joke with my liberal friends I'm like are you prepared odd cast we'd love to have four right up that allows for that one because you're as much you're more of a political junkies that's true the NRA and planned parenthood that's also true of how the Social Media Cable News World has merged and it doesn't that's what I use at Cable News and social the media cable news now as we see it in his people his social media and television there's a lot of that and I agree and embezzle and that doesn't mean everything that particularly twitter more so than actually facebook twitter twitter entices negative and enticed -servative movement should be consumed with us and I expect you guys to be consumed with this which is what happens on January le Let's assume that the data's correct and that the president is not going to win but nobody seems to have accepted the idea that that if donald trump loses I can't believe the amount of people when I say well if Donald Trump election we don't know whether I different theories of the case whether it's a small win big when there's all sorts of you know do the Republicans hold the Senate and that's one thing do they not all that concern is that the model to communicate information is both monopolized by social media and has been worked so add to that agree with that ad the stuff coming to them so we're focusing on newsletters but we think that this model allows us to to sort of keep the editorial objectives that that we want and and so conservative cash and so we think there's a lot of good journalism reporting to do on the right that isn't in service to a politician it's consistent with it also improves the user experience yeah you visit some websites some good websites just the barrage of pop up articles by the way nobody goes to websites correct it prevent comes to them well this is this is the other thing that we're trying to do buying into this this idea that people want phony and entices exaggeration it rewards it sure is is it the the the the model is this is he's probably running again in two thousand twenty four people what are you talking about and I'm like well what do you think he's going to do. My point is this the future of what to that the the the models inside media organizations themselves it's the same thing I mean you get more clicks if your digital media company you get more clicks if you publish Stu- The conservative movement looks like is is going to be harder to see even after January twentieth twenty twenty one website we we for the time being or not GonNa do sponsorships in in the newsletters and we are trying to build a subscription based business where people can come and things are going to slow down four reader is going to provide so to me the most undercover D- fought topic that we have that we don't that and particularly to me I think the a little bit to where we are not you're never gonNA come to our website which will at least at launch in January will publish probably three or four videos and an under videos and where's that volume coming from my you know that we just think there are a lot of people who were exhausted with that and to actually be able to read something that is the current media landscape right and this is the problem is that the economic incentives trump I mean look this is my issue with with facebook is in all of social media is that just scared so I I that's really worries me I do think though that after he's out of office if he loses in twenty twenty which I think stories that we're hearing now everybody will here by the way your leader Ed we'll have by the way that's the type of thing I this is my concern everything's going to be believable short or two apart cheerleader booster as we still it doesn't do anybody any good if you're going if you're writing things and look in that that's the those are the economic incentives owned ASC and you're like that people are going to click on that if you're if you're trying to monetize volume and find monetize scale that's what you do so were doing the opposite of that so we're not gonNA have ads we we're going to almost all subscription newsletters and podcasts they'll be ads podcast but podcasts are different right and we're not going to do ads on the the names of people that was on this February Fifteenth Two Thousand Sixteen Edition Brent Bozell is he never trumper anymore now I don't think so Mona chairdennis still likely might might take on the election has been for very long time if you look at the numbers there's no way trump can win but the Democrats can lose their ways they can blow it and but for twenty one years before Stephen I started this thing I love the magazine rich Larry's a very good friend of mine I think Richard said publicly that he has regrets about the issue ss in Giggles I I got from our library the National Review Cover against trump which I know there are certain people at National Review that regret this cover story I'm sure in different reasons are different off that your audience is GonNa love is going to go viral is outrageous national parks they lock them up yeah or if you can do you know Dan Crenshaw the number of people who are GonNa come out and start telling stories about what it was really liking there because well that's interesting man the Oh loyalty for so you think after Yeah I've been writing against populism for twenty years I'm not a big fan of populism of any kind and it was amazing to me when that issue came out where again and again all day long on Fox News and elsewhere friends of mine would say things like who does Mash who've sort of drunk the Kool aid or at least they have to pretend that drunk the KOOL aid but they're an enormous number of people in the administration who do not like the president by the way it it for mazing all day long as like how dare they and it was such an obvious towel about both both the genuine spirit populism and anti elitism that was going on but also sourcing the field against one candidate right pick anybody else and there are a lot of people back then who will who today would say hey look there's nothing fine one of the reasons that you know this point I made earlier about the the Ma- a lot of the media do playing party functions even stuff that people make up right I mean that's the scary thing with trump there's no story you can come up with the well that's possible no there's the story read that he went into his private study and open a book and worked really hard and mastered the material and weighed all the directors I think in fairness he's there's voter period represents a ton of people yes I think on one day wake up and they say I want to support this guy and I know that yes and no I don't think that going away it doesn't matter if you win or lose trump is here to stay in twenty twenty one and the question is awesome here's another one Dana Loesch about that she was in there Andrew McCarthy David McIntosh boy the clever go through to become an the growth ideologically always be fighting trump is economy what has happened there I have no edge the third he's kind of quiet right and we just got a medal of honor happens everybody goes together and I thought that that was that was about right but I do think we don't know what's going to happen over the next the way a lot of professional conservatives were monetize that spirit and trying to get ahead of it and it was very depressing to me what does when the minute people think of Ding Dong the witch is dead I can now tell tales out of school of business I think there there is a difference of Tell Tale telling the lot of the bleak I try to remind people super bowl Sunday day before the Iowa caucuses we are in week nine correct right the packers will be playing we assume in that super bowl of course that's number one of the we have eight weeks plus five weeks supplyhouse in that thirteen week period you would assume before the Iowa caucuses were supposed to have impeachment hearings in an impeachment trial AH anyway I'm still look I mean just for being a little facetious no no no no I but I want to clarify a couple of things I was one of the people internally back when I was at National Review I was at national review how are we going to navigate and also one of the things I truly worry about is on what terms he goes away right if you see the president in exile if he there is a debate that takes hold and conventional wisdom that takes hold that is joined by a handful of Democrats it says I want this investigation to continue and I wanted to say yeah Eric Erickson bent on the day I think he changes his mind on safety trump but he's been he's been tough on it he eric the future we're we're going there are no roads so I have a theory that in in film and drama and look I think that's been that's been sort of a problem of the pundit class in general you know going back decades really I mean talking about stuff where we don't have facts in front of us again but let's be honest with you it's it's it's called a never-trumper issue right but it was yeah it was the term did not exist then what we were doing was in the least believable thing I would read in Mick Mulvaney spoke on the mid Bobigny years at the White House but one of the things that's really sort of I mean there are definitely people but then that is inconsistent in the sense that I thought this was the worst person we could nominate turned out he will win a lot of people made prudential arguments about his inability to win all that Do we know what Mike Pence is gonNA look like against Elizabeth Warren on January fifty one point is there's a lot of stuff we don't know we don't know if the president does shut down the government I act it's gotTa be used in the third act in movies like when they introduce something's everything's edited so tightly the time their foreshadowing sure I increased whether that is a bridge too far for some people going wait a minute are you shutting it down over impeachment like we don't know what the crazy of the next six weeks I think you're absolutely right he just got he just got so how do we that's why he's eating he's never trumper anymore now okay so can I correct Michael Casey McLean. He's accomplished unpardonable exposure right even if he resigned today early and gets pence to do that but if he's always thought if he always treating himself as a political candidate than he's a political martyr than right at the ballot box what I knew about him and then rich lowry wrote about how and ain't GonNa be Twenty Republicans that awesome it was basically they either all have to do this whatever I am the conventional wisdom in Washington says it's a given the house is going to impeach and it's a given the Senate is GonNa quit and I sit there and say okay but I don't think either is a given and not to plug the dispatch we wanna try to slow this stuff down I love what you're saying leave slowdowns the biggest problem we have in American political media is that we Roger Premise yeah Jonathan Swift is that for literary back modest proposal but there is something to that I do think the president will use is actually for the same motivation without the extreme obviously which is simply he does have criminal exposure in New York City and in New York state the judge said to the lawyer are you saying that if the president shot someone Fifth Avenue he couldn't be investigated and trump lawyer last week said yes that is more foreshadowing that God is screwing with us and there's this thing I can remember it's Chekhov tolstoy but they're saying if you if you introduce a gun in the first act buffalo intellectual I can't remember Checkoff tolstoy what are you what is Donald's doing telling people hamburgers and French fries who are they what national and it was news politics to protect as a shield even out of office I think that's right and let me let me actually argue against my earlier point has the election was stolen from the president and that's all that seems you can't say that percents zero review think it is to tell voters who to vote for Oh my God that's why it was founded that's what we do for a living uh rich speaking of its lowry and I wanted I use this because I wanted to praise rich I thought rich has I I look at impeachment the following way it was drip drip drip drip drip and then came the big thing we have a bearing I got the big thing it's almost inside out now were sort of back filling with information ananymous it's funny if if he could accept the president's one of his downfalls is going to be his inability to compartmentalize and his inability contrite only think this all ends with trump shooting people v APP I think that court case the other day judge lawyer rough you know and move this I mean I think Republicans have legitimate gripes on on the process of Democrats can't imagine why they haven't moved this into the public or ready have that script here is going to end win so it's funny you take that actually believe that one of the reasons he may go around the country as a president in exile certainly doesn't rise a level of impeachment that would help a lot of these Senate Republicans that that you can defend right you can't defend it was a crummy dilligence but it's pretty clear from the transcript it's pretty clear from the testimony that that he did it and trump made this enormous mistake by basically creating the quid pro nobody wants to hurry up and get to the conclusion yeah everyone's desperate to win the race to be wrong I assume we don't we don't we don't need to do that and it's good to doc Brown Sorry pile by you tell us a tolstoy is it anyway yeah so anyway this rule show off a gun in the stuff and I think most Republicans certainly most Republicans I talked to in the House and Senate are troubled by this privately there were a middle ground it'd be nearly uh-huh I you know it most like theirs and yet whenever DC thinks that there's something we miss I think it's possible that National Review It's where a lot of the smart trump defenders are going as trump is guilty we like we know now he did it right I mean there's yet to do your smart is this is really unlike Watergate unlike the Clinton impeachment in that we have the big thing I like for those I do think there's a lot we don't know I do think we'll we'll see more facts we'll get more documents well we only have opening statement about you think about it in all of this congressional testimony the opening statements if he could accept censure yeah it would happen yesterday I just wrote my La Times column about this. This is this point Andy McCarthy whose still good friend of mine former colleague look and I do think it's important that the president and his supporters have an opportunity to defend him put it in context now again I think we know the big style yeah troubled by the this is a political witch hunt in this constancy scene it's through the and so I do believe the president will continue to use politics as legal defense by think he's going to be trying to rig the election right like that is the allegation now we're not saying he did it but the allegations so if you believe he is trying to rig an election shorts about how we got the big thing so in that sense we really do have a lot of the primary effects now I think it's going to be really important I democrats how much of disaster or mistake the Syria decision was people can debate I don't think it was as big as say the Vietnam War Iraq war but every Talkin resolution passed unanimously in the House and all but two senators vote for Bay of Pigs was pushed by the Pentagon and the CIA Iraq war Iraq war had bipartisan support. You know what happens at the ballot box my my my partner and I read Mark Murray that's his beef he goes look I accept that larger argument except he we'll be the loudest person to signal whatever the shift changes and I think Lindsay will move to this should be decided at the ballot box that is the easing is not outrageous positions This mistake is so completely owned by one president that even his own staff was against it he just did it on his damning we have no idea what the nine hours of depositions cuts and that cuts both ways both ways but we had our colleague David French this argument in his newsletter the other day and I thought it was zone and if it goes badly if there is ethnic cleansing on grand scale if that whole region goes to hell in some important way he can't say well you know my advisers told me this I had this intelligence that said that or I had a vote in Congress no one has buying the cheese stands alone on this one and it's a real problem for them star wars are they going to fail at this or they're gonna try to extend the life the brand too much or not I think that the real tragedy here is that in the race go do star wars stuff having wrong man it's that's still screw Senate Republican and also look the objection to the I'm sympathetic to the decided at the ballot box argument but the objection to that is this was about changing can I just say no my twelve year old seventy and he goes you know all these star wars movies are kind of the same and I'm like you know he's not wrong plot is he's like all right so this person I mean so the point is is that if you what he should have done in this Andy's going is that he should have said from the beginning yeah it was a quid pro quo probably mistake but argument than the one they have to make now I will tell you this I think we are days away not just weeks away from Lindsey Graham moving too because again he can't defend what the president did but Lindsay down I think that's a legitimate fear so the point you're making earlier about what if there's a government shutdown of people associated with impeachment right and doesn't necessarily have to be associated with impeachment for example outrageous position and it's certainly one politically that's beneficial to both to Lindsey himself his is but he's got his own if there are no contrition or there's no admission that he did again that's where I think it's the reality is I want people to know that God only knows what people will quote in our fakes and all this stuff that's right but I I agree I agree with you all right I'm going to close this with to sort of specific interests of mind that each of your experts on you Mr Goldberg a science fiction expertise mistake any president has made in foreign policy I think it's Charlie Wilson's war mistake but I'm going with Mujahedeen but my point is is that long term but not short term the goal I allegedly yeah what what do you make what do you make are you disappointed that Weiss and bedding offers a star wars trilogy what do you make of what Disney's trying to do it quo as the smoking gun like if you approve there was a quid pro quo that would be really bad and we have five and now we have over and similar with added in every day as far as a political consideration there are lots of other political considerations that are shaping their decision making which I think they deserve to be criticized for but we should have this in partisan media does is back correct opposition research that kind of stuff it's not but what week you know I've never given much of a damn about calling myself Republican I really care about going on try to create some couple of public moments they've had police blew them up and of course with so they've been there they want to make sure every is shape shape it unfairly will then then you can't wait for the ballot box that has been with Democrats haven't figured out how to articulate that argument very well but you have you went lucas you want more stars do you think that's how I'm starting to burn out on I two kids aren't so we're gonNA keep making them and My son the Mike Jesus my son's how many movies have death stars in I mean my God it's the same you know I know I agree that I think one of the problems that you had was that the First Star Wars Oh people's attitudes are not silo D- And Was We learned Syria while this other the Syria is fascinating thing to me I've been racking my brain Watson Benny off ruined the last season last juicy that's that's the real problem I I don't care if the go do star wars stuff but you know finish the job the empire strikes back upon which are basically the fountain that all of these things derived from they had that special ost that was like both mythic and Gritty Realistic in that had a certain kind of like edge to it and they've been cartoon firing them ever since and so the full launch January seventh any any significance of the word dispatcher you just like founded by reading Ben Franklin's autobiography we were we and I know that parcells like to say you are what your record says you are except we have caught breaks with most of the teams we faced either no Patrick Yeah I still haven't decided whether the leflore Aaron Rodgers thing relationship I still believe that the that I'm still nervous about that relationship I still think it's combustible it's our packers you and I have this most people know have this I'm a little worried that the packers are not a mirage but akers one most of their close games you know I were not in the class with the chiefs we beat them last week they didn't have these better than the saints I think mahomes fired coordinator coming it's the chargers like are we should we the raiders after three straight road games like should we be aims by eleven points or less so they're winning close games they're not blowing teams ernest too the packers I believe two years ago we were on the opposite side of that stack right we had this record you're like wait a minute we might be better than the saints I mean it's close I mean I think the chiefs and the Patriots the class of the NFL right now saints probably close second and I like to think the packers and I have to say the Vikings I it's not true the vikings still can't beat a teams with winning with good really good teams yeah I mean Alba after a quick break you're listening to the Chuck Todd cast on meet the press it's because he's extrordinary it's been unbelievable I think you're right I mean it's been

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022: Overcoming OCD In Your Relationship with Meshulem Epstein

LifePix Relationships With ST

19:19 min | 7 months ago

022: Overcoming OCD In Your Relationship with Meshulem Epstein

"Hey guys, it's STI, your host of Life podcast where people with all sorts of backgrounds challenges a life experience. Show US how they make their relationship extraordinary. Hey guys were here this week? West Meshulam Epstein. How are you and well? Thank you, so got to of you here. You WanNa. Tell us a bit about yourself and what you do. For the past twenty years approximately I have been focused on treating OCD and related disorders came upon a quite by accident. I was sent for training a private training with someone named Dr Jonathan Grayson while known author, an expert in owes you the and a very interested and. We really clicked, and we're still in touch. Until today and I got very curious about the philosophical nature of OCD, not so much compulsions, but a person's. react actually the relationship with uncertainty that is really what got me thinking, and then I was asked to work in a very religious community where there was a lot of OCD around the religion and the name for that as scrupulously on the word, scrupulous and so friend of mine. WHO's a scholar and I? We spent many many hours probably hundreds of flying the treatment of OCD to our religious activities and had a sell to people who are pretty black and whites and. The latest in their religion. So That's really my sub specialty, really interesting, completely new angle on the whole thing. It's fascinating stuff. We had to interact with a lot of rabbis. And make sure that what we're doing is. Kosher and It did that that I come from that that society in that environment. A father is a rabbi. My father in law is a very well known expert in Jewish law, so I was sort of a known quantity, and it was coming out of the system. So that helps that helped a lot. And then rabbi started telling people to come to me, so it was this implicit What's the word implicit evaluation of of the of the work? Work that that I was doing? It's very very as you will hear talk about treatment at. It's very counterintuitive so so it's about not knowing for sure whether you're doing a sinner, not not do not knowing for sure whether you're performing your requirements It's called a Mitzvah in Orthodox Judaism We are whether you doing those properly and living with that feeling and. The and the real life doesn't give you guarantees, but the OCD, and anxiety makes you want to seek certainty after really compulsive about their ways of being trying to be sure you can never be sure their ways of trying to be sure for someone who has a CD inner religion. That's like a huge confusion to live with. Just never knowing what you're doing, right never knowing what's GONNA be nothing? So how does it affect relationships so? I got three ways. that it can affect relationship. The most obvious way is that you're living with somebody who is under a lot of stress who may be behaving oddly and a Lotta Times? The spouse or the partner has no idea why the person is doing. These things really has a lot to do with the level of awareness of the spouse and an awareness of the sufferer course, so have somebody in your in your life that it is impaired at some level and that is also living with someone who's in a lot of pain. A lot of people with OCD suffer tremendous, tremendous psychic thing. It's They We've had people who have had cancer, and have at OCD and said the OC was worth extremely psychologically painful and I guess if it's religious, really it's equally painful for everybody, but like they feel like they're really. You're bad person and you're. You know. God is GonNa get you for something so so number one is living with someone who's in pain and maybe impaired in some way, and may not be able to do all the tasks. Let's say that a person in that position relationship would be expected to do number two is is a very common presentation very con- Presentation in ASEAN relationships in we call it accommodation, and that means that the sufferer involves the other person or family members in their OCD. So can you check the door? Can you wash? Wash my clothes. Can you tell me if this thing is clean? And they start using the partner as a source of reassurance. Re that's again. It's like it's a compulsion. It's the way to be sure and a lot of times. The person does not realize that they're being used as a compulsion, and they just go along and they go along and if they do realize they're being used as a compulsion, then they're torn between eight. Calming their partner down or should I. Give Him some tough love and watch them squirm. And then they get mad at me. So how's that work in a relationship? You know you're you're my partner, not my therapist, so that can get very frustrating for both the sufferer will will may possibly start demanding person to do these things it ranges from complete presence. The person does whatever candidates bully and ranges from that to some confrontational. Most of the time it's accommodation, and then we work in treatments with the family members and the partners to lower the combination in our office. We only do it almost always do it with the permission of the supper sometimes with teenagers. There's some tough love contracting. We're not GONNA do this in. You know if you don't like it and this is usually done when the person doesn't want to go to. When you start many leading, but in relationships the the person could really bring someone else into their OCD. which now you have two people somewhat impair. They're both following. This new religion called OCD the so that is very familiar scenario called family, combination and It's very calm. If third one is something that you you, you may not hear about, and I'll tell you a story to illustrate it. I had a client that I that I treated as a teenager. You notice that no one ever says whether they treated the first successful dangerous saying retreated have. Any which you know I worked with him. Got The some better. I don't remember exactly and. Maybe till he was twenty one, and then I hadn't didn't hear from him, and he got married and one day the he causing comes into my office with his wife. Here's the story you got married. Now as we know, like events tend to trigger relapse so marriage divorce death moving having a child, those kinds of things, so he has ocd spiked when he got married and is white. They're both like about six one choose by five nine taller people think people and She noticed that was among people he was interacting with them. was animated seemed happy, and they were alone he was. was very quiet, and she began to wonder if he was attracted to her. If you liked being around her, so she began exercising and watching her weight very carefully, H wasn't heavy, but you know she was worried about being attractive to this her husband and She became pregnant and she got permission from her doctor. The doctor says you can access so That was going on and churn up the Hungarian mother-in-law came to visit and said You don't look good. And she drank the this girl to Nyu I, think it was in the city to a special. You know it'll. and. He said Lady. You're starving your child and. The story does have a good ending. Where they had the baby, the baby was was a low birth weight, baby and perfectly healthy small, not the kind of baby that these two very, it's all people or over average people would have now. What was happening? Was He was lost in his thought, she interpreted that as him, not being interested in her and look what kind of havoc was wreaked, but I that taught me. ME A lot. The person is not present in the relationship. They always have something going on in their head. Some worry. Sometimes people have mental compulsions the music try to figure things out in their head and it just. They just think they're worrying, but really that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to figure stuff out and get certainty in their head and you're you have this whole disaster critic? Thank God it could have been worse. Because he was, he was distant. And he wasn't able to be present and that's something. Maybe people don't notice is off. Yeah, that's really interesting. So how can someone who isn't a relationship with someone that has OCD able to improve? Their relationship works out besides for just go into therapy would advise the person to learn as much as they can better see the not in order to train their spouse as. You know even if you don't have those some people try to trade trainers spouse. But not, but in order to really understand what's going on with their spouse, and actually speak the same language so instead of his spouse saying. Why are you doing that strange behavior? They can. They're educate themselves. They can say okay. What is the Dow where the uncertainty? That's bothering? That's causing that behavior, so they'll both be on the same page. She she or he is not going to get anywhere ordering the person to do something or to stop doing something. They say that saying stop. It doesn't work just so but they can once. The person has someone in their life. That really understands the dynamic that there is a doubt intrusive. Thought is very upsetting in feel like I need to fix it or to get certainty so now it's at least the topic is on the table and we're talking the same language and we were both agreeing even without saying what's going on here. Is Anxiety United Weirdo you're anxious so anytime that happens. It's much easier to talk about it, and then maybe you know he's in a position to. Make a different choice. Maybe I don't have to do these compulsions whenever you whenever you push against something you get resistance so the spouse by learning to talk the OCD language and know what's going on a much better chance of walking the person through without pushing them around Let's an anxious kid so instead of talented kids to calm down. Don't worry. Don't worry, don't worry. Don't worry you and you insist. Insist that you learn to say to the kid. Are you feeling anxious or a really little kid? you can say. is the anxiety bully bothering you so now? You can actually have a conversation about things I'd bring butting heads with the kid. Same thing works with a with adults to that. You avoid confrontation and you just talk about the facts on the ground, so I'm very four talking about anxiety openly with either. Partners because that's really what it is. It's not about the checking the doors and checking the. and. I Dunno checking. Whatever you're checking. That's not what it is. It's the anxiety. Let's just talk about back then you have a at least you have your foot in the door, getting to the core to the rue of what it really is. Checking the door. Really why? Why is that bothering you being able to come coming from understanding point of view and being able to understand them and talk about it. It's not about the doors about uncertainty. Yeah, and I think that. When they have these conversations, it could even build a relationship more 'cause. You're not fighting. You're coming from a loving place of trying to connect withdrew absolutely true. I've seen that happen. People really appreciate their spouses actually in those situations, certain acceptance. They feel very lucky to have those people in their lives. Lives to that is that that is very true and Then when the person feels understood, the spouse or partner, or the parent can say if they want a bill that that trust or understanding they can. Maybe they feel that they have A. They're in a good position to do it. They can say. Do you think you can just hold this uncertainty can? Can tolerate it, and we know that the person can the person themselves has to step off the in experience it and in. It's hard. It's very painful for them, but your best chance of helping the person do is understanding that it's the person feels the uncertainty in a very visceral emotional level that we don't suffer from mostly they don't feel it's like. Like getting a gut, punch it's there's nothing intellectually were wrong with the person. The reacting day just got a kick in the gut so If you understand that they're just reacting as we would get a kick in the got, you know so nobody likes to be uncomfortable so just like we scratching each. They do a compulsions just as simple as that. Anything else you WANNA share with us. Let's see I got my first. COVID, nineteen client yesterday. Really. Yes, all my friends are telling me that I must be making a lot of money. Off this virus and it was not true. Starting Somebody, Might years that went I said. Have you had health anxiety in in the past? And he said all my life so you? It's just the first time we went to therapy. He was just sort of hanging on and there's just put him over the edge. So this person probably always needed treatment never gained thirty one years old, and he said okay. Now I'm getting panic attacks. So it's different than It's a little bit different than your standard OCD. Because everyone's a little anxious. You gotta be crazy not to be a little nervous about this, so it's like okay. It's normal to feel nervous, but maybe. Not having panic attacks I don't I. Don't want you know. We don't want. have panic attacks about So that's the it's about that. That's a good example of of tolerating A. Level of distress. Everyone's feeling it. What's my relationship with discomfort? Which is a whole? Other dimension of OCD, not so a lot of times those see day they they're reacting to the discomfort Those people are probably people who don't like hot rooms, and they don't like a lot of other sensory stuff, and they don't like the discomfort of the down, whereas most cases are I, don't I, don't like the possibility asylum breaking into my house at night I. Don't like the possibility going to hell or any The fear once in a while is about the discomfort and seeing. Seeing that more and more often, it overlaps a lot with people sensory issues, picky eaters all the whole that whole syndrome, so we focus on being able to tolerate distress What's my relationship with discomfort? things like that things like that so If anybody wants to know about OCD there many, they're probably too. Many books the which recommend. Yeah, so I recommend from Jonathan Grayson. Grayson freedom from obsessive compulsive disorder or kids. I recommend over parents of kids freeing your child from obsessive compulsive disorder by Tom March and ski because it gives great analogies had a talk to kids about OCD, and it helps the parents two more books, one really little kids like you read it with the kid, and it's violating named Dawn. You've ner. She's on Amazon and it's called. Called what to do when you worry too much is about anxiety. And then she has another one specifically about CV I. Don't remember what it's called. You can find. Amazon and she has once what to do. When you grumble too much or complaining kids and what to do when you have negative thinking, it's really those are great, and then there's one more which is interesting, which which? Addresses the discomfort angle separate angle. And it's it's a book. About a type of therapy called act, acceptance and commitment therapy and that. We use that as well as what we do is called exposure therapy. ERP Bojan response intervention. The name of that book is out of your minds and into your life by Stephen Hayes a very intelligent book, and has a lot about this how you relate to things that. You would consider disruptive, annoying painful, and it goes physical pain as well and they have a very good. You'RE NOT GONNA do every tool in the book. It's a workbook as worksheets. You can either do or don't do them a lot of very very good ideas in that book. That is Rosie. Those is the ones that I recommend. Yeah, awesome! Thank you so much? Great to talk to you anytime. have. You ordered the genus relationship online course yet. If not you're missing out experts in the field top secrets on how you could take your relationship to the next level. Understand your partner, you neck and deepen euro relationship go. Genie's relationships dot. Come now to learn more about it and get your Cova Nineteenth special today. Link in the show notes. Guys I hope you enjoyed the episode and subscribe to the podcast. Leave a comment below so I can know what you think and to book your relationship photo, shoot CJ session, or just the hear more about what we to Goto. Life picks relationships that a s that m. e. m. waiting.

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Dr. Daniel Moran | The 2 Step Process for Facing Any Challenge in Your Life and Coming Out On Top

The Art of Charm

59:31 min | Last month

Dr. Daniel Moran | The 2 Step Process for Facing Any Challenge in Your Life and Coming Out On Top

"Welcome back to the artist charm. Podcast where we help you win at work love and life. Now we know you have what it takes. Reach your full potential. And every week we share with you interviews and strategies tell you develop the right social skills and mindsets to succeed. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary. I'm jay and i'm johnny. You love the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a quick review on i tunes. Are you ready to super charge your social skills and create captivating conversations with anyone effortlessly. What is your x factor. How do you stand out from the crowd and dazzle your audience. What gives you an edge and unleashes your full potential incredible social skills to captivate anyone and build deep relationships without having to be fake or someone else now we launched our x factor accelerator mentorship program this year to give you the edge. You need to win at work. Love and life. X factor members have been promoted fell in love and finally connecting in a real way with family friends and coworkers. And we're ready to make twenty twenty one year you reach your goals and the success you deserve after all being thousands of clients over the last decade master conversation and develop limitless confidence. We wanna personally mentor. You head over to unlock your x factor dot com to apply today scientifically back strategies group accountability and unlimited access to me and johnny. To help you get there as well as lifelong friendships. With our incredible members pat on over unluckier x dot com to join our group mentorship program of top performers. A thank you everyone for tuning in. Let's kick off today show today. We're talking with dr dj moran and we're gonna take a deep dive into taking on what's important to you. Dr moran is the past. President of the association of contextual. Behavioral science is co authored two books about using acceptance and commitment therapy act in practice and committed action in practice. He's also been featured on the oprah winfrey network tlc and the discovery channel. He's published several articles and book chapters including publications with cbt. Pioneer albert. ellis and act pioneer. Stephen hayes so dr moran welcome to the show and we're very excited to have you with us michael. One of the coaches here. At the of charm is a big proponent with act and he has turned aj and myself onto it and we have integrated some of the concepts into our into our own training programs so to give our audience an overview of act. Would you mind setting up for us. Sure happy to. And i'm really honored to be here. So thanks for the opportunity. Acceptance commitment therapy something of interest students. Since nineteen ninety-four it was developed by a whole group of individuals Notably steven hayes. Kelly wilson kirk stroz. All but there is a whole bunch of folks who are interested in this and it comes from the natural science of human behavior comes from the we might call hebr analysis favor announced. This is something that be. Skinner created developed and essentially acceptance and commitment. Therapy is a blending of evidence based approaches that. Embrace things like mindfulness but also embrace empirically supported behavior change protocols and encourages people to build up their psychological flexibility. Which will talk about in a little while rather than just going after a reduction of their own symptoms would act does basically is it invites people to be willing to follow through on what's important to them during their finite period of time on this planet even when it sometimes becomes painful or difficult to do so you only have one opportunity to have a life well lived and acceptance a commitment therapy helps you become guided by scientific principles and applications to make that life meaningful now. We are huge. Proponents of behavior change. But we also know. It's very difficult and we'd love to walk through. What are the biggest things that get in the way of behavior change and then how does act address them right. Well i think the things that impede behavior change of times. It has to do with what we tell ourselves. It has to do with our language that were taught and we learned very fluently early in life and this language is extremely helpful. Our language helps us describe and evaluate the world around us and how to problem solve. How do we get more good things in our world. How do we prevent having bad things in our world and our we meet language we talk. We communicate with other individuals. And that's helpful but it becomes so helpful to us used language it becomes so fluent that we talk certain ways that sometimes we get hooked by our language. Sometimes the things that we want to commit to that we find important in meaningful can sometimes be forwarded by the things we tell ourselves we might tell ourselves things like. I'm not that good. I am a weak person. Or i m too shy so we don't go after a certain things that are important to us because of our self labels we start also use language to think about how things are going to be so much better in the future where things were so much better in the past in that language about the future in the past becomes so governing of our present moment that we miss out on opportunities. Thanks to language because it's imagining a future. It's reminiscing about a past and we missed the opportunities in the present moment. Sometimes we also use language to tell ourselves that some things that we feel are negative and not worth having we tell ourselves because we learned it from other people in our culture that use language that certain ways of feeling or negative. We have a term called negative emotions. Like i will ask my boss for a raise. Win am less anxious because anxieties a negative emotion. Or i will ask this person out on a date. When i am not feeling so nervous or sad or depressed. I have to take these things that i'm feeling and change them rather than just have them and we learn this rule of controlling emotions early in life and all that stuff is is that hook from language that we taught to think certain ways about ourselves and i don't think that's all that helpful and there are other ways. That language impedes committed action. But i'm wondering if there are any particular questions about what i just said that we should explore a little bit for. Yeah we'll for myself. I've learned to view thoughts emotions and language as a ball of yarn that been thrown on the floor. It's all tangled up and because it's tangled up. You can't look at it straightened out and see how each one affects the other. And because it's so jumbled up it's a mess it's difficult and it's very sticky and it makes your view your lens of everything more distorted four myself when i had learned our lease solid in that metaphor i been. I still do this to this time. Spend time and mindfulness which is an opportunity to to look at and begin to detangle but also other opportunities to look at thoughts. Look at emotions. Look words like writing and journaling and being an anytime that there is an opportunity to separate those things or to straighten them out. You can start to see how they interact with each other a little bit more clearly and then you can start to take actions towards dealing with them properly. So you're just not throwing stuff at the wall trying to get unstuck which seems to only make you more stock. Yeah i'm even going to jump off some of the things that you just said johnny in. It's there's a drive or proclivity in attempt a desire to as you said straighten them out thank are in some way like figure them out and deal with them in particularly appropriate way. But i think you've used the phrase straighten them out as if the human condition were to be straightened out that ball of yarn all over the floor. That is life nessie and to straighten. That out is because we've learned from culture and parents in clergymen and teachers and culture that there is a straight path and it's supposed to go a specific way. And oh my gosh. What an abuse of language to like. Give someone that kind of indication that life is supposed to follow something that parallels an ideal that it's supposed to be straight. We can't straighten it out. We can have the ball of mess anything. Just have it. And i think that's what we're after at least that's viewpoint i'm not saying it's the right viewpoint but i think that might speak to an act consistent viewpoint. We might not be able to straighten it out to fit a narrow path but goodness gracious. I never conform to a narrow pass. Perhaps it's to look at it in that mess and to be okay with it being that mess but at least look at where each part is intersecting with the other and how it might affect those parts that it's intersecting with perhaps we were able with these methods in actor to look at them separately and to look at see where they are intersecting and seeing how that intersection affects us. Johnny what you're saying right there is like we have to be okay with the mess. If i weren't with a mess of me. I would never be okay with me. We have to like try to see if we can encourage people to break that cultural training and conditioning that everything has to be straightened out. I agree what if want even judged to be a mess. It's chaotic chaotic shurmur. Of course it ends dynamic got relationships got a motion of thoughts proclivities in genetic influences. So of course it's chaotic. But it isn't a mets like that's judgmental ism and when cabinet zinn defines mindfulness as paying attention to the present moment. Purposefully and non judgmental. I think that's where mindfulness comes in john's like that mess. It's almost in with all due respect like mess. It makes me feel like. I have to clean it up and straight. It's the trying to get on the street now and clean things up in my life that have made a mess of it and i think that's the true way to think about my clients to it's their attempt to conform to fit in to have that normality that i'm supposed to have that leads to the problems agree obviously that comes with the acceptance part accepting all of it the total experience the totality not just seeking the pleasure seeking the emotions that you label as positive or society labels as positive and then the second piece is the commitment piece and i think many people struggle with that because they don't have the internal handled they focus on the external and we've all heard the carrot and the stick and trying to said these big lofty goals but the commitment ps has to come internally for you to actually follow through and in that struggle that we're talking about to to actually change or behaviors we're wired and habitually building these patterns that become hard to break well many of us we instead of focusing on our values we look at. What's the payoff. What's the external reward. How other people view me instead of. Well what do. I actually need inside of me. And what am i. Driving forces that i could commit to and take action in that commitment. So how do we get there if if you're listening to the show and you find yourself falling into that trap where you have these great goals whether it's the new year's resolution or some big event in your life that's coming up and we focus so much on the external and then we fall off and we can't keep taking that action that we know we need our building those new habits to change our behavior. I think the thing that keeps people committed is clarifying. What's meaningful and purposeful in their life. In this goes back to the conversation of having a few minutes ago related to language what. I was seeing a little bit earlier. Sometimes language can be an obstacle for us following through on what we care about but sometimes not being clear with our language to figure out or to be able to describe what's meaningful in our lives that is also an impediment to give me a commitment. So i think one of the critical aspects of becoming more psychologically flexible having a more meaningful life is being able to use language to declare and establish. This is. what's meaningful to me. This is what i care about. It's personally relevant to me. It's vital and i don't think we are given a lot of opportunities to do this. Clarification but i prefer to call authorship to take some time in our lives and say i'm only going to be on the planet for a finite period of time. It can be about lots of different things. I can't control the things that happened to me. But how i react to the things that happened to me. It's somewhat under my influence when i can declare this is what i stand for. This is meaningful to me. I want to make my life speaking just personally owning my life about rearing my children to live a full abundant flexible healthy life. That's my family values. I care about reducing suffering improving quality of living on this planet. Even if it's just in my community that's my occupational values. The question is for my clients for anybody listening to us right now like what's yours. What do you want your life to be about now. What you want your life to be about as probably been influenced by your culture in your subculture your education and your parents and your guardians and i get that but at some point you really get to freely. Choose that you do you get to say this is what i care about in my life. You don't a good act therapist or one doing by themselves. Psychologically flexible person says. I'm not going to let expectations from my culture. Have that kind of influence on what i do. I wanna make my life about creativity and making the world more beautiful and i care about a status system. So i'm going to you know not get a nine to five job in working cubicle. I'm going to pick up a saxophone and get into an improvisational jazz trio and i'm going to create art. 'cause i only have forty fifty more years on this planet to do that. So what the heck. Why don't i do that. Why don't they do that. Why don't we do that. It's because we are in two ways governed. We're governed by our genetics to go after grad affiliation. Like you gotta you gotta make paychecks this way you can pay for your food so you gotta do the thing that everybody else does. And then we're also governed by conditioning in our culture. That says you gotta live your life this way we go okay roger that i got to listen to what everybody else does. And we have to see in act see if we can transcend that can get beyond that instant proclivity to get reinforced to get the next jolly like an animal. Can you put off instant gratification. And say i don't care about like instant gratification. About life's gratification. Care about a care about this being vital to me because i'm only going to be here for short period of time and then like seeing if you can notice that you have a culture teaching you to live life a certain way but that might not be the way for you and can you accept the anxiety with making that kind of choice and still commit to doing the thing that's meaningful. I know in my life taking that. Authorship view i felt my dad was offering my life through my high school experience in college and even in my early adulthood career choices and it was a struggle for me to take over that. Authorship and i did and it was against family's wishes and certainly my dad's definition of success and it took a while for that relationship to heal because of some stubbornness on both sides. But i know when. I share this story and i talked to our clients and our audience members. A lot of us are feeling that that pressure certainly from our parents and you could understand it. They want us to be successful. They want us to be safe. And they want us to achieve more than themselves but that moment of taking over that authorship and saying you know this is me and these are my values as a very difficult time for young adult. If someone listening is experiencing that exact thing and trying to look for that deeper meaning in their life you know what would you tell them as they're facing this challenge. That's a good question because it would depend upon the relationship and my assessment of where they are in their life but put that aside. I would try to highlight reality of. You're going to eventually no longer have an influence on what you do. Because you've passed away and people are going to eulogize you. People are going to put a epitaph on your tombstone in the question is to you now as a youngster. What do you want to say when he wanted that. Epitaph to say that you conformed. You're good boy. You're a good girl because your mom and your dad told you to do with this way. You did it for you. I don't know if i'd be that coercive or manipulative. 'cause were kinda talking about this in shorthand and if i care about my client talking to might not be that much of a wise in heimer. I'm also kind of a wise and highmore and new york and my clients that have treating if i assess that they are also a new yorker. They might get. It might get that. I'm kind of playing that game that they fit in with and i said do you want that eulogize or when you're in the box someday and they're behind the pulpit you want them to say they did their life just like a culture told them to and we're here to honor that kind of lifestyle and before i go any further if that is the way someone chooses to live their life. If you come from a collectivistic kind of culture yes. I care about doing what my family wants need to do. There's no judgment. They're not being judgmental about this at all. This is sometimes what people choose to do with their lives. that's why i was somewhat reluctant to give you a hard and fast answered all depends on what the assessment is with my client but sometimes the intervention is more along the lines of. Is this really what you want your life to be about. And it's just provocative like. I don't want to change them. I don't wanna shake their whole entire world and have them leave a forty five minute session going. I'm going to completely negate. Everything either taught me and i'm never going to thanksgiving dinner and i'm not gonna hold the nine to five and i don't care about a paycheck and no let's see if we can do something manageable with your resources and your skills and your connections and your environment emit such a great point earlier that so many of us never take the time or have the space to even wrestle with these bigger questions i really value. What do i care about. And we feel adrift. Whether that's culturally speaking of the influences or from our families influences and we talk a lot on the show about values now supporting it is to understand them and tie them to your purpose and then of course tie them to your goals so that you can find that motivation that will power that goes beyond the obstacles that are inevitably in front of you and so many of our younger clients. Look at us sort of blankly around this idea of values and purpose because they don't even really know where to begin right. They've just fallen in line with the flow. That is set out for them and in that situation it can feel entirely overwhelming of. Where do i start. How do i even pull this threat to add to that for myself as a younger person and you had brought up this idea of believers mental flexi. Bill psycological flexibility. I know that in my past. Certainly most of my problems had stemmed from not being not having that psychological flexibility and tried to force what was going on into some sort of pattern that i had learned or i had picked up. That had worked in the past but certainly doesn't fit this particular situation. But because i my only experience is from a previous pattern. I'm going to make this pattern fit. And i'm going to make my emotions and my thoughts work with this and i'm going to be stubborn about it because that's what i have and of course. As you know the harder you try to do that the worse the situation gets. And i certainly had to learn to be okay with so many different things that were going on around me because i know that if i tried to do what i had always done in the past gets go wildly sideways. Right right you you. What you've always done you'll always gonna get what you've always got right. There was mark twain like in and so we try to fit what used to work into a new environment because it was rewarding to do it the way it was done in the past and you got the pats on the back in the gold stars and you might have even gotten gratification and satisfaction yourself but changes the only constant that's a priest socratic philosophical. Idea right there and we don't necessarily always remember that like things are going to change in what used to work in the past. I hope it works for you again. It crosses the won't or whatever you know. So that's the whole idea of psychological flexibility. It's it's the ability to follow through care about even in the presence of obstacles. It's doing things that are meaningful. Even when it's hard it starts with just a simple. Why understand the goal. Understand what you want to achieve. But you need to answer the question. Why and if the why is to please someone else. Or it's coming externally. You're not gonna find the motivation. The willpower the discipline needed to achieve the behavior. Change that you're after the why is so important. What is meaningful about this. Why are you doing this particular behavior when we become super nerdy behavior analysts. It's kind of like a geeky way to look at human behavior. Were still always asking the question. Why what are the things that come after this eager that make you wanna do that behavior again or never. Do get a quarter the consequences. Why are you going to do this again. Why are you not willing to do this again. What's the purpose of this behavior to be able to ask yourself these questions. And as i mentioned earlier a lot of us we ask one or two questions on the surface and it's usually wrapped in a lot of what you were mentioning. Certainly there's going to be a genetic answer. There's gonna be a cultural answer. There's going to be hunted on. What do i need right now to fill good answer slightly behind those answers or where more thoughtful more caring more value driven answers lie. And so how can we help. Our audience continue to go down that path to find out where the answers that they need to bring in more purpose into their life and waking up to the values and that new narrative that's going to make life more purposeful for them. That's the catch right in the twenty first century. We are post enlightenment. We are what i mean to say by that. We've gone beyond getting our purpose. Told to us. Predator purpose being told to us purpose was just to mate. Eat and mate and raise your children to carry that on and then there was religious dictates that told us what our purpose was and that wasn't fitting anymore and sometime around the alignment. We started a really embraced science now way. Further on in the twenty first century were going to say. Maybe it's just more than this. What can be observed science. We can see if you can see this blending between what scientific what's also spiritual not necessarily religious but what i'm talking about is like what could the purpose of your life and be without relying on science telling you what it should be and then that puts the youth now who deserve this kind of coaching. What can you make your life be about if it could be about anything pro social to make sure that you do help out human beings whether it's about creating or not it's just like how do you contribute to community. It's well lived by everybody that you can be pro about it that you don't have to conform to certain types of governmental or religious rules. But you can still be pro social because it's meaningful to you and then you get to figure it out and we're not only going to say accept the fact that you're going to fail in that's going to hurt a what we wanna do is create a community that also accepts the fact that you are going to fail and go do things and mess them up and fall down and then stand up again and then we'll we hope to do is build a community that doesn't just say the old japanese proverb fall seven times. Stand up eight. It's we're all gonna fall down several times. Let's help up everyone even more than several times like let's work together at full down seven times during those eight times that you stand back up rely on other people because we're all in this together. We all swim in the same soup. Don't make it all about like. I have to conform. What if it could be about how you can commune part of something. And when you try to commune when you try to be part of a community you make mistakes. Of course you are everybody in their teens and twenties. Does the goofy stuff in. It doesn't carry-on thank goodness. I'm not living the life that i thought i was going to lead when i was twenty years old but a product had those twenties and i had those mistakes. I wouldn't be where. I am today without the mistakes. I don't think there's many of us who would want to take those mistakes of certainly brought us to to where we are. And then of course all the advancements of science has certainly unchained as the certain ideas of who we are supposed to be but yet the science also points. Out that you can't get any more fulfillment and satisfaction in your own life than serving your fellow man. There you go right. And then i'm going to put that back on the marquee. You can't get any seeing more meaningful than serving your community. That's important but then also a corollary to that is that you'll grow from pain. I mean there's so much in spiritual literature doesn't matter what religion you're looking at. Is that not only do you help. Other people contribute to society to community that it's also going to hurt sometimes and that pain is where the growth comes from and the connection. Yeah they go. That's it unifies us matter. What your station in life is. There will be pain. It doesn't matter. If you're at the high end of the stratosphere in terms of success or the low end there will still be pain in his completely relative. I think you know jumping into the mindful action plan. Because it's such a powerful tool and we're going to link it up the charm dot com slash map. Check it out. It's fantastic and really that that first piece of i am you touched on this earlier. So many of us hold onto these labels and these labels are passed down through previous actions so something in our past that we got a negative response to those tied to shame embarrassment in and then we label ourselves in. That creates this limiting belief around what we're capable of so we have to. I notice if we're we're actually being held back by these unhelpful self descriptors and that is the start of starting to let go and get more present moment awareness of who i am right now today and then take that next step of what matters so. Walk us through this mindful action plan. And how we can use it in our lives. Because one johnny and i absolutely love the tool and it distills down so many of the concepts that we've covered on the podcasts in disparate episodes. So it'd be really helpful for our audience. Yeah asia appreciate you bringing up the be. I m piece first. And then there's a whole mind action plan. So the mindful action plan comes from accepting commitment therapy and i was asked by clients that i was coaching. Can you take this acceptance and commitment therapy. And just put it into form or checklist and it seemed a little strange. 'cause i'm like well. We're about psychological flexibility in living a life in a way you want check lists but i wanted to use a flexible checklist. I would add to that though. You're also behavioral analysis and also looking at past behaviors of seeing how they're going to affect future behaviors. So there is some predictive abilities which are going to need to be able to be to be seen and and looked at so you cannot get away with that. Psychological flexibility and nebulous too much. I'm gonna hold you their good points out. He wanted to hammer home. In this checklist that i was coming up to my to my coaching. Clients is that acceptance commitment. Therapy has six components that go into them right now. And i took those six components just colloquially what i mean by that is made them simpler to understand and i turned it into a sentence. I'm inviting people with the mindful action. Plan to be able to say. I am here now accepting the way i feel noticing my thoughts while doing what i care about. So they're six components there and it's right there on the mindful action plans checklists that you can find on the internet and so those of the six components. The first one that jay started to allude to the i m all of us human beings that are good at using language. that don't have any language impairments. We have an ability to describe what our self is and sometimes this self gets described in ways that makes us less flexible less successful. If you will we say things like i'm a piece of crud. I'm no good i'm depressed. I'm obsessive compulsive. You know i'm worthless and we taught that like that. Language is stuff that you have learned from psychiatrists or teachers or parents or some called in illinois point out. it doesn't even have to be that negative. No i'm shy is one. We hear all the time. Grand is used as an excuse right so the ultra-negative ones we understand. That's loser think it's going to impact you but we often self label with much softer terms that we don't realize limit us. Yeah yeah good points and then if male just a little bit further and go positive with it you know like i'm a board certified behavior analyst. I'm not gonna go hang out with my girlfriend and listen to a psychic during our second like what like you just blew it man. You got to be a little more psychological flexible just because you think board certified behavior analysts doesn't mean you can't go to cool things you know i'm good. I'm already good snowboarder. I'm not gonna try surfing. Because i might not be good at that. Like you've just reduce your your psychological flexibility in fun things you could do in your life because you're saying good things about yourself you know so you're a hundred percent ride. Aj sometimes we say things to ourselves that could be subclinical super clinical. They could be really good and they still paris. Because here's the thing you're not any of that stuff. There's certainly utility in those little brackets and those labeling but but that utility is also limited giant. Don't get me wrong. Like i don't ever want to say i'm not certain things in my life right when i say i am a dad but i might say i am a psychologist. 'cause that's helps me get paid by a third party. Payer you know treat imf psychologist. Listen what i am. That's what i do. There is a a main point here. Is that at the core of every. I'm a psychologist. I am shy. I am a snowboarder. Decided there's a point to that and it's there all the time that is i m that's it and that's a hard thing to get across during an interview and in therapy an coaching. It's something that needs to be experienced. You exist you are. You are not the roles you play the emotions you feel the sensations who have the body you experience. You're not those things you have those things but they're not you. There is a core you in observing self. That has been you your whole entire life. That's unbroken unchanged on fraction. Aided by all of the experiences you've ever had no matter how you can label yourself. You will always be i. You just are you. It's hard to language about it. It's more of an experiential exercises mormon experience to get to it like it's just that deep breath the exhale and noticing that you were the one that exhaled and inhaled. The you just exists in. You're not stuck you tell yourself you are. That's important to just be able to say i am. Then we go beyond that with the mindful action. Plan i am. I am a psychologist. Not i am a father. I am depressed. i am shy. I just am. I m here now. Coming in contact with time and place mindfully noticing. What's up with that. I am right here and right now. I'm not going to get caught up with their and then in the future or there and then in the past. I m here now. This is a profound thing for someone to say. It's not like poetic but it is profound to be able to say i am here now to be entirely centered on your existence and where it is in when it is so many of us are distracted and unable to put our attention on the here and now and i think that's really an important part of this plan is yes there are other ways that we can put our attention and focus to avoid the discomfort to avoid dealing with the tangled ball of string the johnny described but win we center our focus in a mindful way on. Actually what's happening in front of us. We can then start the next step which is notice right. You can't notice if you are distracted if you're playing the ps five and you're social media's up and you got your browser you got seven things going on. You can't possibly then get to the next step which is start accepting. What's actually going on in your life right asia. You're right on the money there and both of the things that we're going to go on next is i am here now. Exciting and noticing my thoughts because we have been taught to not accept the way we feel. We've been taught. Don't worry be happy you know. They're they're don't cry or if you keep crying i'll give you something to cry about like we get this message early on in our life that you shouldn't just accept or be willing to feel the way you zeal. You have to feel happy and when you chase happiness all the time. Try to avoid the other natural emotions that show up actually what it does is it makes those arthur natural emotions works if you will. It makes them tenacious. it makes them more intense. You know when for instance when someone says. I want to avoid that party because i am shy. Getting away from the i m stuff but non-acceptance of the fact that their heart is pounding in their limbs or shaking in their bodies sweating. And you know i. I don't wanna go. Because i'm feeling anxiety and anxieties negative emotion when they don't accept the fact that they feel that way they never put themselves in the opportunity to people's hands. Look them in the eye and use their social skills. And if you don't do that you'll never get good though social skills and you know what happens then. You're always afraid to meet new people right within. I'm going to go one more step beyond that and say you also don't in. This was a nerdy psychology term. But you don't counter condition you anxiety you don't base it let your heart pound in your limbs shaking your butts sweat and do it over and over again eventually. The that stuff drops off which you've got put yourself in the fear provoking situation in order for you to counter condition that you put yourself in the face of discomfort so that you're with it within one more step beyond that not only. Are you learning social skills counter conditioning. The anxiety going to parties now like that's more important than learning social skills and count conditioning anxiety. You're having a life but it doesn't happen if you're non accepting of the natural emotions not negative emotions natural motions. Sorry i interrupted john fact. Your point was eloquently put I just wanted to add as i've gotten older. And i think for a lot of us when we get older we we start to realize how we learn. We start to realize how our emotions play out. I call it emotional theory theater where there's and you can't short cut it. You just have to let it run. Its course you can step back. You can observe it. You could laugh at you can market. You have fun with it but you cannot do anything to stop it and with that having a growth mindset. I have always throw myself into things knowing that it's going to be a mess. It's going to be once. I create that mess then. I'm going to go through. The the emotional theater of everything comes with yelling at myself. Beating myself up laughing at what's going on and then it's finally start picking up the pieces of the mess. I made slowly begin to work my way through start learning. Start to feel better that. Oh hey now i have a grasp of what is going on. And now all of a sudden starting sorta get happy that i can find my way through and then boom now. It's hey i know how to do that. I went through the effort and the paints staking worked to do that. And now i'm gonna teach somebody else how to do that and i'm going to mentor them. Yeah having people begin to do that. Mentorship i think is an important on it. You've you've been through it other people through it also sounds like a good idea. I mean the way you just described. Johnny i mean it sounds to me like a life well lived in a growth mindset. Yeah right on frustrating. I want to touch on that counter conditioning. Because it's counterintuitive quite because the initial pain of anything. We do the first time the second time. The third time that discomforted anxiety around the unknown the uncertainty and. It's not a pattern that we're used to so therefore our mind is going to go and all these different directions but exactly your point over time it will diminish but it never goes away entirely so we find that a lot of clients come with unreal expectations of you know. I just never wanna feel anxious again. I just always wanna feel confident. And that also sets us up for failure because that unreal expectation that your body's not going to have a physical response to something that's new that maybe you've experienced before but let's be honest the social environment that we're talking about. It's not a controlled environment. It's other people interacting so it's always going to be there so we don't want to set the target or the goal on. I want to overcome in and never feel that way again. I i just want to go through it just a few times. And then it's gone for good but realized settings coming from a good place a place of growth and a signal that hey there there's lessons to be learned in the pursuit of my good life is through that it's not try to turn it down as fast as possible. Find the hack find the shortcut re shape our mind to avoid it and other ways but realized that anxiety will wane. It will never be as high as the first time or the second time or the third time but. There's no reason that you shouldn't keep feeling because if you're feeling it you're growing you're in a place where you are expanding that life worth living telling me. Think of a couple of things in the way you're talking about is right on trauman act consistent perspective on the first thing. I'm responding to a reacting to is that you're saying some people want to always feel confident but if you actually take the term confident breaking brigham part it's con- fetus and so con- chili con carney. It's chilly whiz. Mead so the commies and s or it ins- is bate. Confidence is with faith. You don't know you don't know that's what confidence is. I don't know and i'm going to do it anyway like so like that idea. I wanna feel confident. You just have faith that you're going to do it but things can go horribly wrong and you do it anyway. And then the other thing. I'm responding to and i'm just thinking about the fact that you might not be able to see it on that in light it up but there's a snowboard skateboard and a surfboard right behind me. This is my living room is what i do for fun when you are doing any of those things often times when you feel like you're going to fall a certain direction. The worst thing to do is to overcompensate in the opposite direction. If i'm snowboarding and i'm leaning this and about the face plant into the mountain do not go like this backwards. Because you'll catch an edge and then next thing you know you hit your but you hit your head and you doing yard sale on the mountain with all your clothes everywhere. What you do is as you're falling this way. Lean this way. I'm going to lean the way that i'm about to fall. And where the fear is and where the pain might be yet yolene into it like. I mean that like not psychologically right now. we're talking about snowboarding. Lean into it and what happens is the snowboard. Goes down a little bit deeper in the snow. You bend your knees the right way to snowboard benz a little bit and it speeds up and because you've got more speed you capitalize on the centripetal force. Just like water in a bucket when you spin it around doesn't fall out your body's like that water in a bucket you lean the way it goes and then you pick up. Speed it's exhilarating. It's totally anxiety provoking. Oh my gosh. I'm going even faster in the direction that i might fall. You know what happens. You pick up so much speed. You don't fall skateboarding. snowboarding snowboarding and surfing. It's the same thing. And i think it's the same thing with life. Lean into the pain and the anxiety and the struggle in the shyness. And just say. I'm willing to face this and when that happens you're totally open to outcomes. You're totally open to experience. And then that openness actually leads to a new way to process it. I love it sometimes. You might not be mentally ready for it and and sometimes you just have to be willing to do it anyway. I haven't figured it. All out has been trained now. Heart still counting. Melinda still shaking. My buddy's still sweating. And so i'm not. I'm not ready and i'm willing anyway. Yeah i'm gonna go in but everything is not properly so we were talking about like that mine action plan and we were talking about how you've got this. I am experience here now. Experience the were accepting our emotions. Were noticing our thoughts. Mindful of them too and then the follow his. I here now accepting noticing. While doing what i cared and we alluded to that. But i just want to round out with Plans about is about doing some kind of overt noticeable measurable behavior you doing. I mean all this act in. Mindfulness stuff is nonsense. If you aren't doing some kind of behavioral change so what are you going to do. And i hope it's being done because of what you care about you know. Find out what your values are. We talked about it. But i just wanted around that out. We talked about values in meaning and purpose. And what you appetite is gonna say what your eulogize her is going to talk about while you're in in the box. I am here now. Accepting the way feel noticing my thoughts while doing behaviors that i care about our inning full in my life and that word. That's key for me. Is the wall part because yes time your emotions and who you are and the acceptance of it will be completely in line with doing what you care about and want to do. And that's great but we can't depend on that so it's important to realize that there will be times when everything you can call flow state or whatever you wanna call it is in sync and acting in line with your values feels good and everything's great but that wall part is acknowledging that there's a large chunk of time when you're not going to be feeling like it and it's gonna feel painful and the anxiety is going to be there like we talked about reminding yourself of that like a mantra understanding that this is a part of the human condition is the important takeaway issue. Or you're saying it's like when you're following through on your guys feels good and i'm glad followed it up and what you said wasn't it explicitly like this also said sometimes falling through your values doesn't feel and that's that's also what you said and i just wanted to highlight that and really clarify that but a sharp point on you said that values sometimes doing that seals good and sometimes you to do stuff and and if he cared on doesn't necessarily feel good and it still what you valley you know. Not giving my kid his tuition money. Because he didn't work all summer in just goofed off. What am i supposed to like. Just give it to you know it student loan timing. You got to pay that back. I can't doesn't feel good to tell my kids. No but it's the right thing to do given the context so sometimes values based behaviour doesn't always feel good like us just changing off of my son about something like that because that was kind of a fictional right there my son's really a very productive contributing member of society but like it doesn't feel good to wake up at five. Am and walks ten minutes to the gym and crank it out on the elliptical trainer for forty five minutes. Every time doesn't feel good but if you value health if you value longevity if that's meaningful to you than sometimes those are the things that you have to do. Sometimes values based hager's are the lead to things that you have to accept rather than just sit back and enjoy i think that's what makes them so powerful and why we we connect to other people who share those values because we know that if they're not doing the easy thing if they're going to submit to these values that they have chosen for themselves to do the hard things will then we know that how much they cherished values and if you're cherishing the things that i'm cherishing or now i put my faith and not only in my values but in you. Wow that's right on the money right. That's relationship building. that's authenticity is city. That's intimacy in our That's cool be have shared values really important but a third us. We have to clarify those values all and that's why this week's challenge. We highly recommend you go through the mindful action plan with intention and focus on who you are now. What is your feeling in the present moment and then defining what are the things you want to be doing in line with those values now. We love wrapping every episode with a question about you and and what you believe. Your ex factor is what you bring to the table that makes you unique and successful. I didn't prepare this one. I guess that. I am reverently irreverent. I really care about science. I care about my community. I care about people help. But i'm always going to do it. Like a complete and utter wise ass. Thank you take to. You're going to be as impactful. Some surrounded by back not members fellow consultants in an act community that lives their life particular way and looks at things with certain way. I agree with a many of them on their values and their approaches in their applications. But i just want to. Do you know fun and irreverence and wiseguy way. I think that's what helps me work with the folks that i work. You know i mean. I i work in safety. I work in blue collar situations. I work with For lack of a better term like a low. Sds clientele folks. Who probably aren't going to walk around the workplace. In salem nama stay to all of their fellow workers but at the same time i want to have taught them about situational awareness which is actually but don't tell them that no like i just kind of want to just be a regular dude who knows this stuff pretty well and see if i can apply it to every you know. I think there's something about a blue collar sense of humor that comes to your values. What's important because you have to figure out what those are. If you're gonna do this drudgery work. And when i say that my my dad worked in a factory for much of my my upbringing and as much as he hated going into that job there was a reason that he did it to provide for the family with the job meant to him the how he built it into his mind as contributing to society. And when you are humor that comes out of having to do things that you do not want to be doing. And i think that it is a very blue collar sense of humor that has always attractive and i think that's you've see that same sense of humor i know. Aj gets. that's probably how we've been laughing and working together for fifteen years cool. Yeah yeah. I mean it's just it's it's The culture on from just wanna take everything that i've been blessed in privileged to be able to learn and experience and spread it around to a folks not might not have contact with on a regular basis and we value that immensely. And thank you for sharing with our audience. Aj drowning. this was a lot of fun. i really appreciate it. Talk me folks. You are adding a lot of really great contents in for folks You've got a great show and stoked to be a part of it is really rats a lot. Thank you thank you go johny. We have a huge shoutout to everyone who joined our live workshop. Captivate and connect. The energy was incredible. We were blown away by the show. Fans the join us leveling up your social skills making real connections and inspiring others. To succeed is what we're all about and we can't wait for our next live workshop. Are you a super fan of the show. Well we have great news for you. We have finally launched our merge. That's right you could support this show and rock out some stylish merge stickers bags water bottles and of course t shirts and hoodies the art of charm dot com slash merch. That's right the art of charm dot com slash merch. Question for us here at the show. Let us know. We're always excited to hear from you. And you could send us your thoughts and questions by heading on over to the artichoke dot com slash questions. You can also email us at questions at the artichoke dot com. Her fun on social at the arte charm. Facebook instagram twitter. If you this show we've given you value inspired you to take action and motivated you to succeed. Could you do us in the entire trump team a huge favor open up your apple podcasts player at drop us a written review. We love seeing how the show's impacted you and it helps high-value people like yourself find us. Thank you for your support and podcast reviews the artichoke. Podcast is produced by michael herald and eric montgomery until next week. I'm aj and i'm johnny i taste.

johnny twenty twenty one year dj moran Dr moran oprah winfrey network tlc Stephen hayes dr moran steven hayes Kelly wilson kirk stroz shurmur heimer highmore forty five minute Aj jay discovery channel Skinner zinn Johnny
The Best of Armstrong & Getty Friday Hour One.

Armstrong & Getty

38:22 min | 2 weeks ago

The Best of Armstrong & Getty Friday Hour One.

"My name is jamie loftus. And i'm here to tell you about my new show. Lalita podcast lolita. By vladimir nabokov is one of the most controversial works of all time and our culture is done it protagonist disservice. Over the years. I've spent the last few months getting to the bottom of how america turn. This abused young girls into a sex symbol and what that says about us. New episodes dropped weekly on mondays. Listened to lolita podcast on the iheartradio app apple podcasts or ever you listen to podcasts. Privilege quick personal privilege the honest. I don't know most of these guys. I armstrong and getty i. It is what it is but hey we've made pasta with ridiculous boots. Hey man i'm sorry. Armstrong getty asked the armstrong and getty show democrats in some republicans are voicing concerns about president. Trump's proposed military parade and feel. The event may come off as totalitarian Sink that's like someone being worried that the pride parade is gonna come off as a little bit gay. That's what they were going for. A terrible analogy. Yeah what was that military parade gonna look like i. I didn't follow this story. Just i don't know sometimes. I decided to check out in these controversies. I think because it's obviously just the crisper people yell at each other where we cliches. We're going to roll missing through the street. Let's say he's in moscow point or Or not Bogota colombia apparently. It's really hot. Officials in one colombian coastal city have a recommendations for residents. Trying to stay cool. This would be one of those things you know when they say drink plenty of water and wear light clothing spanish. Were freaking stupid. Beasts ryan figure this out on her own. The health secretary there sparked disbelief when they urged residents of columbia to refrain from sex during the hottest part of the day to stay hydrated. And where luther clues clothing sexist considered only moderate physical activity as much strain on the hardest walking up two flights of stairs according to the american heart association but apparently in columbia they think sexist too much for you on a hot day. So hold on you. So if you're honey is up two flights of stairs you go up and make love. You've had sex twice in effect there. Your heart vaccinating. Denisot israeli stuff there couple of texts me gotten. Somebody texted rand. Paul is Was four revoking clearances. I thought i'd look into that. Yeah rand. Paul and wednesday praised the president trump's decision to revoke former c. i. a. director john brennan security clearance. Well i remember him suggesting that. Weeks ago i filibustered brennan's nomination to head the cia and twenty thirteen and his behavior and government out of it demonstrate why he should not be allowed near classified information. Paul said in a statement he participated in the shredding of constitutional rights lied to congress. Yeah that's coming up on a texter and has been monitoring and making partisan political use of his clearance census departure. Yeah i is acting differently than former c. I. a. director of them. Yeah so there's no doubt there. I have in front of me and most excellent piece by the most excellent stephen hayes of the Weekly standard about brennan lying repeatedly about some really nasty stuff. Yeah well we got a text. And i i'd forgotten that brennan was involved in the. Do you remember the story from back in the day as a young people like to say nineteen fifty five last year. What day what happened to my texts. Have you completely forgotten how brennan cia spied on senate intelligence committee staffers. That was some when it came out and brennan lied about it then he had to admit it later yet caught lying to congress about it. They link the youtube video of that happening. So he's he's an outlier. Among the president trump. obviously an outlier among presidents. i think that's well. documented brennan is an outlier among cia director's also. And we got a suggestion for the name of our long-form podcast. Potty mc pod face which is not bad. Well yeah yeah. That's not the first one of those suggestions to come in. Thank you for them. To former cia officials who fought in benghazi. This is from two thousand thirteen. This story november of two thousand thirteen were asked to sign additional nondisclosure agreements. More than six months after those attacks act a memorial service for tyrone woods and glen doherty to the c. i. a. affiliated personnel who died during the benghazi attacks and cia ficials including. John brennan denied that that ever happened. But then they Produced all the evidence that's needed and it seems quite clear that several members of the team on the ground in benghazi that night represented with new nondisclosure agreements at a cia ceremony honoring cia officials killed in those attacks. Some of these officials were asked to sign the new. Nda's despite the fact that they were leaving government service and despite the fact that they are still bound by previous nda's and they were quite befuddled by that demand but then brennan denied it up and down and till it became undeniable. So is it possible that this guy really is out of control and a liar and a savage partisan and the rest of it and trump just did a terrible job of explaining that no trump doesn't know about any of this stuff. That's not the reason that they revoked his security clearance. It's just a guy who's badmouthing him on television I think yeah. And it's what you've been talking about. It's just unrelieved unrelated retribution. Which is really not the best thing again. I call this whole thing. A carnival of stupid and dishonest. Just the whole thing is off putting to me. So helen gurley brown. I remember her name from something. She's a giant of the publishing world. She wrote a popular book called sex and the single girl back the day. But anyway this has been making the rounds. Social media at diet published in a nineteen seventy seven issue of vogue magazine weight loss ideas the wine and egg diet. Og which involves as. You may have guessed. Drinking wine and eating eggs will do for breakfast. They suggest one egg hard-boiled one glass of wine for laura lunch. They suggest to eggs hard boiled but poached if necessary and two glasses of wine then for dinner. A five ounce steak No exit would appear glass of white wine. No exit all your eggs predinner. Well that sounds like the low carbon put drunk diet what an idiotic was this presented. Seriously i don't know all in all it says here. The diet sounds like three days. Spent this reviewer. Apparently everybody's been forging this around because it's kind of funny especially if you know you're young single woman trying to keep your weight off and drinking. Lots of wine sounds like a great idea. All in all this diet sounds like three days spent a starving throw him stupor sick of eggs but too drunk to care man. I'm hungry but i'm sure drunk. God that's funny funny. Diet help please. One person responded. Can i swap the eggs for another glass of wine. Wow wear is trust me. When i tell you why does you no good and losing weight as another. There's a lot of people in the world. One thing you get from the comments section on tweets or news stories. There's a lot of sad angry people going mad at everything And then there's a lot of really hilarious people that finally have an outlet. I'm doing the A different version of the wine and eggs died. I'm replacing the eggs with cheeseburgers in the wine with more wine which is not a bad idea. Either beautiful beautiful the seventies when they thought. What did i just say. I can't imagine hard fought. Primary was an accident. I didn't say that were purpose. Yeah freudian slip. That was back when they told us. Fake butter synthetic butter. If you will was better than real butter yeah since decided it was like taking poison and gobble lots and lots of carbs. Lots of in sugar on everything. Just for god's sake don't take in any protein. The government told us that old enough to remember that you youngsters. They're smarter now joe. The government's smarter now. The government's word like mother's milk waco. Yes that was shortly after. They had stopped telling us that mothers breast milk is not. What's best for your this stuff. We made factories better for your kid. It's crazy polio's swag like the new masks at armstrong and getty dot com. You're listening to the best of the armstrong and getty show strong and getting. This is the best of armstrong and getty. So this is an interesting thing it's going on. In oregon you know oregon has some of the Most liberal is liberal term. I don't know The most animal-friendly laws and protections in the nation neither price. That's one of the reasons. This case is going forward there where a horse is suing. Oh right this is a hardcore. Of course justice the horse so this horse belonged to somebody who let me tell you a story about a horse named justice. Good sam elliott So this horse was owned by somebody in that person didn't take care of it which is disgusting and awful. Oh it's terrible. I don't hear that horse walking into the court in about thirty seconds michael. We awful as well anyway. Jack surprise witness your honor. I call just as long as i thought. Just as we're all just as the horse. Not just as the horse was here is just as here. You know what's one is watching. Michael clicking buttons looking around looking a computer screens and trying to imagine how timing how. It's not as simple system in this. It's not your fault might know. Why don't we just buy that thing. We were looking at online anyway. Not not that thing the other one. Oh okay so one would help more. This is treated really poorly by its previous owner. Not taking care of the dogs cats in the animals that are abused needed veterinary care and So anyway somebody else got the horse and now. This person is the previous owner. The horse tempting to horse sue the previous owner right for one hundred thousand dollars with the veterinary care for pain and suffering This new owner is going to have to spend a lot of money to get this. This horse you know back to being comfortable again and a why should they pay for it. Well this is. This is the perfect example of ambivalence That's f. ing looney tunes horses in court animals in court. In general it's an idiotic idea the complaint is. I hope the horse wins the complaint. The latest bid in a quest to get courts to recognize animals as plaintiffs something supporters and critics alike say would be revolutionary. There have been a few previous attempts. Would all get get into and just a little bit. I'll tell you what by the time the answer done with me. I'm gonna be broke so they're bringing this in oregon because they think that's the maybe the state words most likely to find a judge where they could actually make stoned. Make this happen. They may may have found the right key to the courthouse door. With this case they think three decades ago very few law schools offered courses in animal law. Now more than one hundred fifty do and some states have created animal law prosecutorial units which were none existed before In two thousand contractors are building animal houses in two thousand four. A federal appeals court. Shot down a suit. In the name of the world's crustaceans in which president george w bush and donald rumsfeld were sued over the us. Navels you navies use of sonar and how was damaging various dwelling creatures which is an interesting field but in two thousand twelve. Us district court dismissed a suit filed on of. We remember this. Probably a five seaworld or arguing that their captivity was a violation of the thirteenth. Amendment's prohibition on slavery that didn't make it either. Wow and then this spring which we talked about being is going to get the right to sue a hoyle might be it and this sort jim about this. Where a macaw. that's a monkey of some sort Took its own a macaque. I'm sorry causa bird. Macaque took its own photo with a cell phone and attempted to sue for copyright protection when other people are profiting from it all right greedy macaque but the court ruled that the monkey and all animals since they are not humans lack statutory standing under the copyright act but it made it further than than these sorts of things usually do on. Didn't somebody try to sue on behalf of a lab chimp at one point. I would make santa's treatment. Yeah i mean they're so close to human so was it closer than some people we work with so these at this sounds like the service story where you gotta take it too. It's like ridiculous logical. It's not ridiculous but take take it as far as you can in terms of why this would be a horror if they gave animals standing like this first of all practically every pet. That's out there. Somebody would get sued kinds of pets. That don't get treated well. Oh yeah yeah lab. Animals insects my joke about the ants. Surely insects wouldn't get lumped dogs and wales. The whole thing is ridiculous nonstarter. it's obvious to me Because if if someone has standing to sue then they have standing devote to collect government benefits to get married to get married. Certainly tell you what if we told you every store we get about people coupling with animals you know for some reason people think we wanna see him so every time it gets it happens around america we get. The story happens more than you think. There's a guy in the news the other day indiana. I think he had sexed up horses dogs and goats and he Got arrested zero pig involved. I think there was pigs. I remember it was a real mixed grill. Special it's mixed grill night at the The bunny ranch. Try sexual hill triumph. Oh lord yet to try to get a little normal and i dismissed for the best testimony. I mean you got lock these people up. I suppose but. I don't think you'd shoes to be sexually attracted to animals. Most of us aren't because we have good character. Just aren't right. it's not like we all decided. We sat down mom argue. The pro debt argued the khan and we all decided for ourselves. You know. I'm not going to be pardon me up east effort right. It's it's obviously a sickness but at the same time anywhere plenty sicknesses that people don't indulgent as much because they know it's illegal in their freighter but we'll we'll see how far justice the horse makes it in court. They changed the name of the horse for this court case. I suspected that might be the case of a little heavy handed. Heavy who've if you will. That's the story of a horse name. Just glad would that it were also. Wow wow horseface. John kerry blast while so if for those of you who are on the side of working toward more rights for animals. What are you hoping to accomplish. I wonder maybe you can text us. Four one five two nine five k. F. t. c. suspicion just all about i'd preventing any cruelty or exploitation of animals probably including eating on them. I'm wondering if you could even own a pet if that happened because somebody somewhere would think you're not walking enough playing with them enough. I believe that to be part of pitas. Kind of thing is they. Don't even like pets. So you're gonna have millions of feral beasts roaming the streets. They just go away over time. She just wouldn't have dogs and cats if you're gonna so is that what you want. It's societies where they don't have american style pet ownership the go away. They breed like crazy when it have to the united states. Yeah we'd have to take care of that but anyway It'd be liquor talking about the other day. The the super environmentalist people that it would seem have a view that the world would be better. If there were no humans earth would be happier. Some right sure And which. I actually fear. The only the last man on her going to be a few few would be fine But if you make it so expensive in difficult and lawyered up tone pets and there's just no pets you think that'd be better for dogs and cats if they just didn't exist. I suspect that this coming much more from a vegan area. They don't want you eating animals. So that's the direction they want to take it. Then that makes it. I figured there had to be some underlying. There's a reason we're doing this. Yes so it's that. Yeah it's very much like people who want illegal aliens to vote. They're slowly getting them off. They're giving them rights in an increase. The life exactly drivers. Monday benefits welfare all that sort of stuff. Then it gets to appoint words a small step. Let somebody vote. Why don't you let them vote. They're involved in the government. Run with shooting for the best masks. I've seen in. They say armstrong and getty on them. You can get one at armstrong and getty dot com the best of armstrong and getty good afternoon. Would you like to try a free sample of double brownie. Oh sure match. Very good i. I'll just take one more just to be sure. Yep still very good. Some things never change like never being able to take just one free sample and geico saving folks. Lots of money on their car insurance it macadamia nut i taste. We take one more sir. I thought so fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. Do you guys post chair. Not a foot spot. I hate to say it was kind of cool. Funny how funny like cloud go. I'm ready armstrong. Getty listening to the best of the armstrong and getty show dierks. Dr colin wilson closely considered revision of your manuscript and and will recommend publication new gender place. And you've done very good work to address the issues clerk by arguments. Thank you for your contribution to gender place and culture. I wish i could play all of that for you. It's a video. We are posting at armstrong and getty dot com which has links to the relevant materials. Which are we are about to discuss this. Group of scientists designed a rigorous scientific study to prove the level of well i'll i'll read their onward they talk about grievance studies the social Social sciences fields that primarily refer to themselves as blank studies and because they operate primarily by focusing upon inflaming the grievances a certain identity groups we think it represents a significant and influential subset of the scholarship coming out of cultural studies within the humanities sociology anthropology other social sciences and is gaining increasing power over our universities institutions media and culture and having looked into taking classes at various universities. A i ran into this. All the time where i couldn't find any courses that weren't about some grievance group so to study the american revolution yudo could only study you know gay people in the american revolution or women in the american revolution. Or whatever right so what they wanna do. As a serious ethnographic inquiry into fields journals and scholars who exhibited various commitments to the assumptions of grievance studies specifically over the course of the year we wrote twenty app academic papers and submitted them to significant peer reviewed academic journals in the fields with the hopes of getting the published. Every paper combined an effort to better understand the field itself with an attempt to get absurdities morally fashionable political ideas published as legitimate academic research. Some tape papers took bigger risks in this regard than others. We wanted to understand the nature of the problem in academia and the culture that produces it in that sense. This study was what anthropologists might refer to as a reflexive ethnography of academic critical constructivism in plainer language. What that means. We sought to become outsiders who embedded ourselves within the culture in order to understand it and come to fit in with it. We verified our success in this regard by getting high level academic. Scholarship published in journals. Some of them quite prestigious. We hope to reboot the conversation about topics of cultural interests such as gender race sexuality and so on and bring it back to a more rigorous basis the nature of which remains to be determined that this time we want to reintroduce skepticism of the underlying assumptions and quote critical methodologies employed in studies so that scholarship regarding important questions of gender race sexuality and so on can addressed accurately by the best possible methods this follows from our suspicion which we think are project helps establish that these feels are corrupted by bias. Favoring particular radical political view from certain thinkers the names and they've name and many others and an unwillingness to accept outside criticism. We perceive a large number of people both inside and outside of academia who are aware of the increasing power grievances study scholars wheeled and we wanted to provide an opportunity for these people. Feel safe enough to speak out and say no. I'm not going to go along with that until it has had more thorough and rigorous review and for them along with others especially on the left to say people do not speak for me so that is the rather dry explanation of their very rigorous year. Long study of this and it was supposed to be a little longer net but they got outed by certain members of the stupid stupid media. Who just don't want anybody to have any fun. But that Video we came back with the audio. You heard was them getting news that the first of their papers had been accepted by gender place and culture and the paper was specifically human reactions to rape culture and queer performance city at urban dog parks in portland. Oregon here is your introduction. This article addresses questions in human geography and the geographies of sexuality by drawing upon one year of embedded in situ observations of dogs and their human companions at three public dog parks in portland oregon which is so good. The purpose of this research is to uncover emerging things in human and canine interactive behavioral patterns in urban dog. Parts to better understand human Moral decision making public spaces and uncovered bias in emerging assumptions around gender race and sexual activity specifically and in order of priority. I examined the following questions how to human companions managed contribute and respond to violence and dogs to what issues surround queer performative and human reaction to homosexual dog homosexual sex between and among dogs and three dogs suffer oppression based upon perceived gender. Wow it concludes. By applying my black feminist criminology categories. Through which my observations can be understood in inferred it cetera et cetera. Sarah And it was all made up and as ridiculous as they could make it and still get it published and it was published by and praised by very prestigious publication now. Some of this is what you were just talking about these. These areas of interest are so excited about their area of interest that they've invented that they're willing to go with anything that is what agrees with them. Somewhat of was is talking about earlier the whole academia thing where they just everybody gets printed. They print everything. Nobody reads stuff. That doesn't have any impact. But it's just part of academia's. I wrote a paper that got published. Oh really need to you know. It's just part of that world weird but they were trying to prove that if you accept the party line and the accepted thinking in the grievance studies field they'll accept any zander's there are no standards at the opposite of rigorous another one of my favorite stars planets and gender a framework for a feminist astronomy understood. Broadly is the scientific study of the stars. Astronomy ranks among the oldest of human fascination. Studies knowledge is still the relationship science gender and astronomy however have gone uninvestigated mattru chef for good reason. Masculine est approaches to a pissed mahlouji and astronomy as well as gendered in colonialists systems of knowledge production verification have excluded and marginalized knowledge is narratives in ways of knowing women indigenous people and other sources outside the western centric andro. Centric scientific paradigms andro centric sent me humans. yeah human scientists human centered signs to remedy this problem. This paper proposes a framework for feminist astronomy that one critically examines knowledge production astronomy in the sciences to recognize his gendered and colonialist approaches to astronomical knowledge and three challenges these systems of scientific domination and four provides alternative knowledge sources and research message for astronomy feminist astronomy draws upon feminist theory post colonial theory and feminist political ecology to analyze while challenging disrupting masculinity hegemony within astronomy and the natural sciences leading to a more inclusive diverse equitable astronomy more focused upon human relationships to the stars. But it's it's a self perpetuating this whole thing because you you wanna print these papers to help validate your field which you in and get paid for which for which. There is no work outside of academia to like build up this. It'd be like if i could convince a university studying. Buck owens was really important. Yes and a country music and out affects the world and i can start publishing papers on that and then now i become a professor of a department that studies that just you know so now i can make a living on something that nobody cares about isn't real when i invented you know that's true what troubles me though. Because that's that's a good point but it's almost a. It's a very different thing than we're talking about here. Because this crap and it's crap is become such you know political correctness in the original meaning of it. Meaning that if you went up against the communist doctrine you would be drummed out of the party and or tortured or killed or work to death if you if you leave the politically correct party line. And these party lines are so brutally enforced at colleges and so universally exempted indoctrinating millions and millions and millions of kids. So it's kind of the opposite of what you're talking about. I know i know at least one professor that headed out the door because just couldn't couldn't handle going along with this stuff super frankenstein and the masculine imaginary feminist epistemology and super intelligent artificial intelligence safety research. I was another one of my favorite Oh i almost forgot. This is probably my second favorite after the dog park one. Who are they to judge. Overcoming anthropometric and throw palmistry through fat bodybuilding advocating a new classification within bodybuilding for people that accepted and praised in fat studies an interdisciplinary journal of body weight and society. And it's pushed a lot of other studies out of academia legitimate studies that have been around for centuries are no longer studied in here. Woke and you're not about a grievance. There's no room for you on campus ryan interesting. Check out the great new swag. Like the new masks. At armstrong and getty dot com. You're listening to the armstrong and getty show armstrong and getty. This is the best Armstrong and getty so anyway. We're talking last hour about this absolutely fabulous scientific study of how incredibly biased and conformist. The so-called social sciences are and are some science to the social sciences. But it's there's a lot of squishy there but they well. I guess if if you were here you heard it. But more of the fake papers that they got published and they pushed it as far as they could make them as ridiculous as they could. Here's another my favorite titles ethnography of breast durant masculinity themes of objectification sexual conquest male control and masculine toughness in a sexually objectify restaurant again. That term is breast around like others. That's clever and they took that paper printed it Here is wait a minute. What is what is called their point being. You can't be too absurd for these people own right right as long as you toe. The party line This one's a bit frank folks rubbing one out defining meta sexual violence of objectification through nonconsensual masturbation consensual after beijing. Think about that for a second. I'm not sure. I think i've always consented for the journal of poetry therapy. They got moon meetings and the meaning of sisterhood. A poetic portrayal of lived feminist spirituality published. And let me do one more of this. This is good agency as an elephant task for feminist porn impacts on male explicit and implicit associations about women in society by immersive pornography consumption And then they did one on type sets and how they affect Your attitudes about various things. Various fonts and how they establish male hegemony over something or other and finally masculinity and others within a skit so ethnographic approach to auto ethnography got them all published and Victor davis hanson. Who we like as written a bunch of books about a bunch of things Military historian among other things mentioned in one of his books that how used to be in the united states as always been the case in the world. Almost anywhere you went to college. They had some sort of military studies or military science Classes or major ryan. Now they're almost non-existent many goes through the decades how they dropped off but it used to be every university had that. Because it's the really were the you know you can hate. Moore's what you want but just gotta accept the fact that it exists and live and die always has always will and And university study. And you could major. You can take classes and they've just disappeared. They're slam to universities in the entire country. Now that do that while that's crazy. Yeah and and and a go go into a little more detail about when you were trying to find history classes. Oh yeah yeah. I wanted to study a world war two and take classes and i thought maybe i could take classes to get my masters whatever and there. There was no way to go about learning about world war two or the civil war. That sort of stuff. It was all women's role in the civil war. One on one or or gay people in the revolutionary war or blacks whatever all these different groups which are all their own story chair. You couldn't do. just regular studied. The study world war two history. Yeah with all grievance history which is pretty interesting it pushes out the other stuff. Yeah now You got to be worried about this. So we all known. We've talked about this a lot. There were getting more calls on our cell phones. People trying to either sell stuff or rips off and it's supposed to explode in the next year for some reason i guess it's all the data that we've all had hacked from us. Oh yeah yeah yikes. Even technology experts are getting taken in by some of the more recent schemes on. They've got one an example. Here of one guy does sort of thing for a living who got called by He's a wells fargo customer. Aren't you asking to be ripped off. Allegedly oh wait what they have lawyers. And they need 'em fraudsters can use a variety of open source and free tools to fake or spoofed the number displayed as the collar idea. Think we all picked up on that. Oh yeah as. I got the same. Have you been an erect lately called from texas massachusetts california nevada increasingly from your dad. Yeah that's yeah they're gonna mention that. Which often just sprinkling in a little four knowledge of the targets personal details like the social security number dates of birth addresses and other information when they get you on the phone to show that they're legit. Wow so they'd say mr getty Just to confirm that we are talking right person or the last four digits of your social security number. Yeah yeah eight seven six five and the spoofing number that they are using is not just a random thing from out of town it will match your if work or the the example they use the credit union that somebody banked with It matched the number of the credit unions. That was like on the back of the card. So you know this is the number right person. They know your address card. Yeah i'd say yikes and by the way this person points out that they can get that stuff. Social security numbers dates data birth addresses prior addresses all of this for a nominal fee from any one of several underground sites that sell that kind of data and kind of oneida round two. I've done that you've done. What by people secret data you could become someone else and rip them off. No no. i've. I've found out shocking amounts of things about people people in one case. I needed to find somebody. This won't take long ago through so this Person talked about a phone call. We have like fifty minutes. Take your time call came in the scam call Turned out to bella cocaine and said hello. is this we we believe. We've got some fraudulent activity on your credit card and the number that shows up his sean point up is the is the number you call on the back of your card yikes and says or whatever wells fargo bank in this case And so it's got that number on there so we've got some questionable charges on your on your credit card. Just wanna neal was down. I get those calls. Sure i get that the website rights. Yeah is the card in your possession right now. The caller Ask why yes it is. It was the agent. Then al acted out if you on. Because i've done some acting the agent and ask him to read the three digit seavy code printed on the back of the card. One two three after verifying the cv. Which i wouldn't do. I don't think it depends on if you me when i was bouncing. I know that the agent offered to expedite a replacement i. He had to read some disclosures. Then he asked me to key in a new pin. I picked a random pin and entered. It verified it again. They asked me to key in my current pin. This made the person pause wooden and actual representative from wells fargo have access to his current pin. Them it's just to confirm things the caller said. I can't see what you enter. But you're the bank. You have my pin and you can see what i enter. The caller had a quick retort for that. Only on the ivr. That's the interactive voice response system. Can they see it. Okay didn't know that. Oh the vr vr didn't know it's candy coated surprise. You didn't know that. Hey if it helps. I have all your account info here just to confirm the last four digits of your social security are number or your address is sure enough. That was all correct but things still seemed off at this point told the agent. I'll call you back by dialing the number printed on the atm card. The same number that his phone was showing as where the call was coming from but hung up back in the representative answered. Said there's been no such fraud. We don't know what you're talking. Wow boy film with that whole voice thing that we've probably seen you've probably seen it on our website where they can listen to someone's voice and he said it'll be your dad calling you. Hey jack from your dad's number for my dad's number. It'll be my dad's voice saying hey i just need your social security number or something really. Why for some forms. What forms important form all right here you go. Wow insidious dad saying. And then he'd say i've got it on the. Iv are what armstrong and getty in a world of an ever changing economic landscape. How on earth can i get some financial stability in my life. I'm david grosso. Most of the podcast. All the prophet every week you'll hear from successful entrepreneurs the learn from their chievements most importantly to avoid their mistakes on the podcasts. You'll hear stories that will deconstruct what's going on in the economy and how it's affecting your finances so that you can follow the prophet. Listen to follow the prophet. Every saturday on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Cha, Cha, Changes! The Transtheoretical, or Stages of Change Model, 6 Steps to Lasting Change!

The Virtual Couch

43:52 min | 1 year ago

Cha, Cha, Changes! The Transtheoretical, or Stages of Change Model, 6 Steps to Lasting Change!

"Coming up on today's episode of the virtual couch. I know it's the end of the year. And you're going to be hearing everything you're ever GONNA WANNA know about change but this is a podcast cast today that is going to change the way you look at change the Trans Theoretical or stages of change model six steps to a lasting change and where we get caught up and how we get past that coming up and more on the virtual catch okay before we get started today. I believe I am going to present to you. My very favorite email of all time with regard to better health dot com and it reads. Yeah Tony I get it. You have a book. Sorry that makes me laugh right out of the gate. But what's with not airing the better. Help Dot Com info before your podcasts. I feel like I'm talking into a talking tax. I wanted to tell you that there was a question mark after that but anyway back to the email I found better under help dot com. Thanks to your ads before your podcast. Thanks to better health DOT COM. I was able to find someone that could help me understand and deal better with my. ADHD ADHD. I would love it if you would continue to air the better help dot com ads before your podcast. Because that is the way that you are going to continue to help more people. I know the book is going to be good. And I plan on getting it when it's in electronic format. Don't get me wrong. I Really WanNa hear you and co-authors take on pornography addiction and betrayal trauma. But I don't want that necessarily laying around my coffee table. I love this email so I can't wait to get the book and I promise you I will write a wonderful review when I do but for now can you make sure and put the better help dot com ad had before your podcast because it has literally changed my life. I was going to do it again. I was GONNA say period before I heard your ad. I had never been therapist and quite frankly I was going to go to my grave without ever going to therapy but thanks to better help dot com. I really was able to quickly find someone that I fit with. Who can help me with my adhd? Thank you for all the work that you do and please let other people know that better. HELP DOT COM can literally change their life. NPS It's pretty affordable. Okay thank you for that email now you can understand why I really wanted to read that one and and in particular he talks about Adhd. And that's something that we're talking about on today's podcast. I guess I just made this ad a non evergreen so if you hear this one and the next the episode is not about Adhd please just a little bit lazy and put this one before. Because I really like the content of the email. But you'll enjoy the episode whatever's coming up next. Go check out what over five hundred thousand people already done before sign up now but going to better health dot com slash virtual couch. Bart and get the help that you need. They didn't even know that you needed today. There's a broad range of expertise and better helps counselor network as you heard in this email you can find somebody that knows the speaks fluent. ADHD or people that work with OCD excited depression. You name it the services available for clients worldwide. You can log on your account at any time and send a message to your counselor timely and thoughtful response and you can schedule weekly video videophone sessions you want after sitting in. You won't ever have to sit in an uncomfortable waiting room as with traditional therapy better help will assess your needs match you with your own license professional therapist and oftentimes times. You can start communicating and under twenty four hours which I will tell you that can be difficult. There are times where I may not be able to get somebody in for a few weeks so under twenty four hours. This is incredible. If you you better hope dot com slash virtual couch received ten percent off your first month services so waiting for you owe it to yourself at the very least go check it out. Go ahead PAS the podcast right now now and go do it. I'm not going anywhere but I think you are going to enjoy today's episode so once again better help dot com slash virtual couch. Try it today. Utility in episode one hundred seventy three virtual couch. I'm your host Tony. Over a licensed marriage and family therapists. Certified My blabber coach writer Speaker Father Four Ultra Marathon runner and Co author of the bestselling book. He's a porn addict now. What an expert in radic answer your questions in which I play the role of the expert and Creator the path back online pornography recovery program that is helping people reclaim their lives from the harmful effects of pornography? Have you or anyone that you know is struggling to pornography behind you. You want some for all and trust me. It can be done in a strength based holds. Shame become the person you always need to be way then please head over to pat back dot com and there you can download a short e book that describes five five common mistakes that people make when trying to get rid of pornography wants him frog and that is path back recovery dot com and please visit virtual couch instagram As well as the virtual catch page on facebook facebook or Tony overpay licensed marriage and family therapist. Page there as well and if you have a minute and you've enjoyed any of the virtual couch podcast material. Please do me a favor of a late. Christmas gift an early happy New Year's gifts. I guess we don't really give those but Rate Review. Subscribe to the podcast. Wherever you get your podcast that would be wonderful and one more quick item? The Business Salt Lake City. I'm going to be speaking there at the outlier podcast festival on Saturday. January twenty fifth. And I'm really. I'm excited about this opportunity of speaking on a subject that I am far too familiar with the dreaded imposter syndrome so I will be speaking to a lot of people that are either already creating podcasts. Maybe have the desire to create podcast or who might just beat podcast fans but speaking to this concept of. How do you avoid this impostor syndrome and a lot of it does have to do with the principles of acceptance and commitment? Emma therapy of really identify in your your true values kind of the things that you you do and the things that you are about. And how if ye Kinda gotta stay really dialed in in an authentic there. And if you do that you're gonNA feel a lot less of that imposter syndrome but also talking about how normal it is to feel that as well and I'm also looking at Oh and again that's it out liar podcast dot com and I'll throw that in the show notes and I'm also looking at possibly trying to speak at a fireside if you're in the Salt Lake Year you recognize that that vernacular uh-huh fireside on Sunday the twenty six but those plans seem to be a little bit up in the air so if you happen to be a bishop I president or relief site president. Somebody that might have an opportunity to bring somebody on to do a little bit of teaching. I might be able to do a second our lesson on on a topic of of your interest or again an evening fireside as well so if you if that sounds of interest to you Your warrior steak. Just shoot me an email at contact at Tony Over Bay Dot Com. I would absolutely love to squeeze the most out of every minute that I am there in Salt Lake. Okay so today's topic is definitely heading a little toward. It's the end of the year people making resolutions. And I've done a couple of resolution related podcasts. In the last couple of years and And I think I'm going to re air the one from last year acceptance and commitment therapy with New Year's resolutions but record a new intro some additional thoughts in air that next week but I did a podcast last week that I think I said this on the podcast Kessler Real. I literally woke up Wednesday morning Wednesday morning and I just. I don't think I've ever really felt the call to go into my office and and skipped the gym. And just come and record something. But I'm really glad I did. It was on the Book Liberated Mind by Dr Steven. Hayes is one of the founder who's founder of acceptance and commitment therapy and the book really lays out the six principles calls of act and it really shows why can truly be difficult to just decide to be happy in the morning and And you know so anyway. Please listen to that episode. And one hundred hundred percent not saying that one shouldn't think positive or create a positive mindset I'm a huge fan of all of that but the data's somewhat overwhelmingly shows that simply telling yourself to be happy or or just think happy thoughts not only doesn't always work but it can actually cause you to have an overall kind of negative effect because then people often feel worse when they wake up in the morning and they say all right. I'm on it I'M GONNA I'm GonNa think nothing but positive happy thoughts and then just stuff happens. I always Kinda give the speeding ticket or the dog may be throws up on the a new white carpet or that sort of thing and all said you're mad and you get angry and then you think okay. I can't even stay happy for one day. One hour and so in reality is those things happen. You have the thought that you're going to have and that doesn't make you a bad person or necessarily even an unhappy person but it's more about what you do with those thoughts about changing the relationship with those thoughts and acceptance acceptance and commitment therapy that podcast. I did last week lays out. I I feel like pretty well that process of changing the relationship with your thoughts but anyway go listen to that one because today though we are talking talking about change which is one of the things I love especially as a therapist We feel like for the most part almost all of us and we would love to change different things in in our life. Different things about our relationships. Different things about our jobs or about our health or about her Our marriage or as we the way we act as a parent or about our relationship mentioned in our faith or any of those things but we get stuck on how. How do we make those changes and acceptance and commitment therapy is a huge piece of that? But here's one that I've wanted to do for a long time and I really don't know why I never did a podcast episode on this so if you really Google and you can do this. It's kind of interesting if you Google theories of change your your steps of change you'll find the four basic steps of change or the six steps of change or the eight steps to change the five steps to change. But I remember in Grad School. I learned about one in particular. It doesn't have a real Catchy name it's the Trans Theoretical or stages of change model. And so. I'm going to talk about that today and I think it'll it'll help it'll make sense. It'll bring some awareness to the whole process of change Kinda normalized and just help you move forward with change that That might be important to you in which is a big thing around New Year's right so the six stages of behavior change. I'm going to be quoting a wonderful article is I often like to do It's called the Trans Theoretical or stages of change model and it's by kindred Cherry and it's reviewed by amy more who she's I think she's done some edition quoted her on another podcast or two that she I think steamer in a book or two and she's a great therapist as well and this one was updated at the end of November two thousand nineteen from very well mine dot com. And I just WANNA throw a little bit of a kind of a something upfront here is I just threw some notes in here as I was reading this article and You know you really need a spouse or apparent or you need to be the parent or you need to be the spouse who supports change and one of the biggest problems with people who are trying to change Asia is the fact that if they throw their idea of change out there to people that they they want to count on or people that are important to them people that they have somewhat of an attachment with if that person says. Why would you WanNa do that or you? Don't WanNa do that or that's ridiculous. I've tried that and it doesn't work. I want you to just kind of be aware of what message that sense in so I really the best way to try to motivate for change is to be someone that has people in your life who are going to say. Hey tell me more about that. That sounds like an interesting goal. Where's that come from? And if you want change you desire change and you don't have those people in your life then. I just want to kind of help. You understand understand right now before we talk about this that that that will make things a little more difficult so if this if we get through this article today and if you've listened to that acceptance and commitment therapy podcast podcast from last week where you've really Kinda tried to dial in your own values that things that are really things that you want to be or things that you want to do and you know that those come from your core four again and acceptance and commitment therapy call your own private experiences. You're the only person who really knows. What your experiences like? You're the only person who has gone through all that you've gone through your nature. Nurture your birth order DNA. You know your your rejection so all of those things come into play on why you want the change that you want so so if you feel again at your core in your bones that this is something you want to explore some sort of change if people are coming back at you and saying no. You don't WanNa do that or I wouldn't WanNa do that then. I WANNA really help get to this place where that's probably some of the reason why it's been hard to make change in the past so you know people can have their thoughts and their opinions and just just kind of say not all right he thinks but the and it's even okay to go to somebody that you care about and say. Hey I really I really want I really want you to kind of be on board with this this or at least I would love to have your support so that I can figure this out because this is something I've wanted to do for a long time whenever that changes. So let's get to this article so Um Kinder- Cherry says that anybody who has ever made and broken new year's resolution can appreciate the difficulty of behavior change making lasting change in behavior as rarely as simple process and it usually involves a substantial commitment of time effort and emotion. So whether you want to lose weight or stop smoking or accomplish any other goal. There really isn't an I love how she points this out. There's not one single solution that works for everybody and most likely we've all tried several different techniques and we've gone through trial and error to achieve our goals and we hear oftentimes that you need to keep keep it simple stupid. The the kiss rule goals we've heard about being very specific with goals. There's even some data a little while ago. That said hey gopher the home run and change everything and you're more likely to to find that You're GonNa have success and I think the bottom line that again. I love working these act acceptance and commitment of your principles and is the reason why some things were for some people and some things Work for others and and things don't work for everybody is again because of all of your own stuff your own bags. Baggage sounds awesome dramatic but all your own baggage that you bring a scenario so and it's because of this. Is She points out in this article. During this period that many people become discouraged and give up on on their behavior change goals because they are trying to either change things that maybe aren't as important to them or they're trying to change him in ways that other people have suggested would work so the the key Kita maintaining your goals is to try new techniques to find ways to stay motivated and I love that concept of you know staying motivated means that recognizing that there we were going into alternately or most likely slip up on the goals in today's article they even use the word relapse which I know can sound pretty dramatic because that's a pretty big one in the addiction world but but hang with me here and it'll make a lot of sense so she talks about to succeed the elements of change understand. They're they're really three most important elements and changing behavior behavior. One is the readiness to change. She says do you have the resources and knowledge to make a lasting change successfully and so if you think of You know if you're GONNA make some ginormous change of I don't know if you're GONNA if your goal is say. Let's say a bad allergies. I'm making this up on the fly and you are going to make this change where you're gonna live in an environment. Where there there are no allergens the other resources you know? Do you have the resources to do that financially. Do you have the knowledge to know where you live that you would have less of the allergens that affect you. You and cause you to break out or or that sort of thing so Barriers that changes the second thing the first ones readiness to change you have the resources and knowledge in the classing teaching successfully number two the barriers to change. Is there anything preventing you from changing and Don't know why we're going to go with this if I want. Avoid these allergens. I don't think I've ever said the word allergens agents four or five times in the same five appeared in my life but if you go with that one bears a change. Is there anything preventing you from changing. You know you have all of a lot of family in your area. You have a financial obligation to a former spouse that is in the area so are there barriers to change. You can even see where we're going if you don't have the resources or the knowledge and Legally legally you can't leave. You can already see that. You're probably setting yourself up for a lack of success. If that was your goal to get out of the area to avoid your allergies that sort of thing but the third element of changes expect relapse and I think that one's pretty important as what might trigger a return to former behavior so expecting Expecting relapse just this means that you're looking at those triggers. So you know if your goal is to never sneeze again. I guess that would be a pretty pretty bad one. Then a trigger is going to be being around the things that caused you to sneeze knees so let's jump into the stages of change model so she says one of the best known approaches to change is known as the stages of change or Trans Theoretical model which was introduced in the late nineteen seventies by researchers James Pro Shasta and Carlo Diclemente who are studying ways to help people quit smoking and the stages of change model Elizabeth found to be an effective aid in understanding how people go through a change in behavior in this model change occurs. Gradually relapses are inevitable. Part of the process of making a lifelong lifelong change. And I think that's just so important to know. We all want to think that we can quit. Behaviors cold Turkey. And I wanNA tell you. I work with some people that do and for some that is incredibly empowering for some the change cold Turkey Changing Cold Turkey happens when there has been a significant event. I mean I've had people literally get arrested. Said before and then that prompted them to make a very serious change or people that are in risk of losing a job or losing a family and that those times are when you can see these. He's very dramatic and cold Turkey versions of change but for a lot of people part of the process of change is this concept of relapse and so Knowing knowing that that's an inevitable part of the process of making lifelong change often can help because often when people do relapse and let's say they're going to just eat better Let's say they're going to avoid wait. You have people often say that they're not gonNA ever eat sugar again or they're not gonNA eat packaged foods again and so then just knowing that that is a wonderful goal and and there are people that can nail that never never turned back. The sugar package foods again but Sometimes people are going to be in a spot where they do they relapse and the the key is not then beating yourself up and saying man I blew it see. I can never do this. And what's wrong with me. You can see how that's GonNa go dr one toward Just kind of saying right. I give up on changing that part of my behavior that part of my diet that part of my life so this People that are who are unwilling or resistant to change during the early stages stages the eventually. We'll develop a proactive and committed approach to to changing a behavior. If they recognize that some of these things. Like a relapses axes is an inevitable. Part of making a lifelong change so this model demonstrates that changes Israeli easy and often requires a gradual progression of small steps toward a larger goal. So here here are the stages stage one is called pre contemplation. And I just I love this concept that the characteristics pre contemplation. Our old friend denial. I am going to resist any joke about rivers in Egypt or that sort of thing although I guess kind of just happened but so pre contemplation denial or an ignorance of the problem so oh pre contemplation. There are things that if you're being honest with yourself and I think the food thing is a big one for me where in the back of my mind I know that as I just turned fifty that I know the metabolism's probably slowing down a little bit than those hairs growing low faster as is the year hair. Ab I've gotten a little bit. Larger size is of of pants. I mean I think that they must all be shrinking. I you know all those jokes as well but probably need to dial in the Diet a little bit. So I'm also in denial of that. Because I do the thing where I think our I'm fifty. I exercised regularly and so the characteristics that denial is like. I'm fine. It'll it'll get better I I will suddenly stop advancing in my waistline But that's denial or the second characteristic or pre contemplation is ignorance the problem. You know if I really really is kind of a trip I am embracing the heck out of fifty. I honestly never expected to feel as good as I do. At the age of fifty one play basketball my son last night. He's killing me which I'm fine with as well but I love it. I love the way that I feel at fifty. But I'm also fifty and seeing literal lines and wrinkles and all these sorts of things and again expanding waistline and things that never had to deal with so I can't be ignorant of this problem so but stage one pre contemplation the strategy during pre contemplation stage one pre contemplation is rethinking your behavior and here's the key and introspection and self self analysis assessing the risk of the current behavior so She points out that if you are in this stage of pre contemplation you may feel resigned your current state or you believe leave the you have no control over your behavior so I I will admit I didn't realize I was going to be doing my own personal individual therapy on this yesterday but I think that there's a part of me. It almost feels like kind of resigned to my current state. You know I mean I am exercising. I still enjoy food. I still eat as if I was doing ultramarathons every other weekend which I'm not and and so can you just feel like this is my current state or that there are many of us. Just feel like we have no control over our behavior and we'll kind of get to that one and a little bit so ah pre contemplation stage one that moves onto stage to contemplation so the characteristics of contemplation our ambivalence and these conflicted emotions. So let's it's kind of talk about those little bit first ambivalence. Okay let's see how smooth M M edit that was I may or may not have just hit pause and went and looked up a nice definition of him Excuse me ambivalence and what I found was so ambivalent state of having mixed feelings or contradictory three ideas about something or someone so contemplation. This ambivalence having mixed feelings and I can definitely identify if we're looking at diet or eating better after that change there. I have these mixed feelings but I haven't had to worry about this in the first fifty years of my life or or maybe I should have worried about it. I mean no no shooting myself I I mean that's a fear should do but I just I haven't so I've got this ambivalence where it's like. I don't know maybe I could have done something about it. Maybe not maybe I need to. Maybe I don't or or these conflicting emotions because I think there's one part of me that feels all right. Let's get real now. Let's get vulnerable. There are times where I have eaten is clean as can be and I feel amazing zing but there's a little bit of work and sometimes I think I really like food and I really enjoy the way it tastes. And so have these conflicted emotions of yeah I I if I knew I could throw an extra ten fifteen years onto the end of my life right now I mean I just absolutely love my my wife and my family my kids. I mean I'm going to be grandparents someday. No announcement yet but at that point I really want to just live as much of this life as I can so I do. Have these conflicted emotions. What if I knew that eating incredibly well and clean Would allow me to live this. Continue to live a very healthy life. Which I'm pretty darn sure it? Would you know again these conflicting emotions. This 'cause we're just coming off at Christmas and I had cats and many reese's play. Nobody's business support horrible after eating a mall which is not the the feeling that I would like to have so strategies of contemplation weighing pros and cons of behavior change so pros and cons con's maybe not as many little reason little kid. Cats pros could live a whole lot longer. Anger could go back to some of the pants. I really enjoyed that. were smaller waist size and being able to just get up and down with grandkids and still playing with my you know my you know Almost sixteen year old son playing basketball. So pros and cons or confirm the readiness and ability to change and then Another strategy in stage. Two of contemplation is identifying barriers to change and She points out that I think what's really important. Many people never make it past the contemplation taste. And that's one of the things I enjoy about this trans theoretical model of change or the stages of change is you've got the pre contemplation contemplation. And I feel like a lot of us stop in contemplation contemplation mode where we have this ambivalence where it's like. I don't know I'm not sure. These conflicted emotions. While I really like this you know I really like Reece's but I would really love to still be able to get up and down the basketball court at sixty. I mean I wasn't sure if I would be able to fifty so Those you know a lot of people stop in that Stage two stage three is called preparation so the characteristics are experimenting with small changes and then collecting information about the change. I absolutely love this. This is a you. Don't have to hit a home run or you don't have to hit it out of the Ballpark to make make the change. So Experimenting Small Changes Strategies Writing Down Your goals preparing a plan of action or making a list of motivating statements. And I know that There were a couple of articles that I was reading. That gave more in the in the way of what this can look like and I think that experimenting with small changes can literally be and I've talked about this on a few of the podcasts event. Even on the concept of addiction where you remove an addiction even call it food if I want to say that. That's my my my addiction fiction. If I remove the junk food I do leave this giant void. So you know it's kind of difficult to just go at that and say all right. Here's this void. I'm going to want to turn tord wonderful chocolate food whenever I am kind of bored or stressed or sad. You know. I'm doing some emotional therapeutic eating so when I read just when I get rid of it. Altogether does is leave. This big void so expanding small changes could be literally Getting either portion control which I've had some really good success in times where I will take up. Take a portion of chocolate goodness in the small ziplock bag and then that's all that I can have which that seems to work at times and Also experimenting with small changes as far as I love the concept of replacing or adding adding good food and so today abroad. If I'm looking to my right I brought a second banana and and an apple in today and a little bag almonds so you know putting good food out there. I still have in my little mini fridge. Little mini reasons mini kit. Cats like like those are kind of fitting with the whole mini theme. But I have those here but I also try to bring more fruit and so the the plan is to fill myself with more fruit so expanding with some small changes and then collecting information about that change. I think that one of the things I mean you can literally do this down to the go to your doctor and And have a blood draw and do a nice workup before and then periodically throughout Dietary change or even with exercise noticing a lower cholesterol lowering of your blood pressure. or or you're you're sitting heart rate but so preparation stage three experimenting with small changes and collecting information about that change and strategies. Again right down. Some goals prepare airplane of action and make lists of motivating statements. So I want you to know I know. I'm very aware that the writing down goals and making a list of motivating statements are strategies that are are somewhat in conflict with the podcast that they did last week. But this is the part where I want to be very clear there's nothing wrong with having a list of motivating statements. I have those myself or writing down. Goals is never a bad thing but what I love about. The acceptance and commitment therapy model is what I mentioned in the podcast last week was and I think I want to bring this one up here real quick. Pull this up on the part of the book where Stephen Hayes talked about this but when he talked about values and I absolutely really love this. Let me read this again. This is from the book liberated mind so he talks about values require pivoting from socially compliant goals choosing values at redirects the yearning for self direction and purpose. So here's the paragraph that I can't even express how many times I've quoted this in the last couple of weeks in therapy. He said that people often attempt to achieve goals because they feel that they have to otherwise people. We care about or whose views we care about would be displeased or they will be disappointed in themselves. Research shows that Su- such socially compliant goals awesome. I love that term such socially complaint goals give rise to motivation that is weak and ineffective so if we are setting a socially compliant goal of having to Don't get rid of all chocolate. You know if if that's something that someone else has told us no you should really get rid of all chocolate. I mean if you read about chocolate museum the things about chocolate if that is not it your core a goal that you have that is more of a socially compliant goal. Then that gives rise to motivation that is weak and ineffective says we may Dr Hey says we may try. Tried to drive our own behavior with such external goals but we also secretly resent them because they undermine our own process of unfolding the yearning for self direction and purpose cannot fully be met by goal achievement since that is always either in the future meaning. I haven't met my goal yet or in the past meaning argument my goal so this is the key says values are chosen qualities of being and doing doing such as being a caring parent being dependable friend being socially aware or being loyal being honest being courageous living in accordance with our values as never finished. It's a lifelong journey. And it provides a way to create enduring sources of motivation based on meaning ultimately what your What your values are is up to you there matter between you and the person in the mirror? Sure so I I I absolutely love this concept of values being chosen qualities of being and doing so even if I want to say that I want to be a more active parent and that's living more of a value based lifestyle being more. Active parent is a way for me to then say okay. It's a it would probably be more beneficial for me to eat smaller muller portion sizes or to eat less or to eat or eat those the same thing but eat healthier or look at the banana and eat the banana and Instead of the kit cat or eat the two bananas and allow Myself One small kit Kat. Because I'm living by this value of being more active parent instead of just setting the goal of not having any chocolate at this week you know that might be a socially compliant goal but it underlies my own sense of unfolding. That's what I absolutely love about combining act with this trans theoretical or stages of change model so number four stage. Four is the action phase the characteristics taking direct action toward a goal the strategies. They talk about rewarding warning your successes or see seeking out social support and in kinder- Cherry says take the time to periodically review your motivations resources and progress in order to refresh commitment and belief in your abilities and I think that the one of the keys here is that seeking out social support and and a lot of it depends on again your own private experiences. I'm a big words of affirmation Mation Guy Big Atta boy guy. So I can't lie love when I let my wife in on some sort of goal that I am making and I love when she will follow up and I love when she she will say well done you know were. I love the way you're going after this goal and so but that taking direct action toward the goal and remember if we look at that That at Stage three to preparation. We're experimenting with small changes. So then we're taking action characteristics and that leads to stage five of this trans theoretical or stages of change model which is called maintenance. And it's not quite like that. Maybe as the the word the way that we typically use the word but maintenance means maintaining this new behavior and I love how she puts here for the characteristics. The second part of the characteristics are avoiding temptation and so boy. Can we go deep into the work that I love to do with Even addiction and work. Where avoiding temptation? So if you look at the the the habit cycle the habit model that That I have in my path back recovery program or if you're really looking at any sort of change I like the layout that. You've got a trigger you've got So I mean followed by the trigger. You've got a thought and then following. The fought is an action so you get the trigger thought and the action so of wooden station if a trigger for you is a lot of times people do after after a meal the the they want chocolate so if they are in a position where the trigger is finishing dinner. Then there's the thought where they want to eat chocolate than typically there becomes the action. The behavior trigger thought action. So you WANNA be able to put distance between the thought and the action so after there's that thought you know at that point can you reach out to someone in and talk to them. Can you make a new plan. Where after dinner you get up and you go on a walk? I mean you can create these new processor. These new patterns that will put that distance between thought and action or what this is talking about in the stage. Five or maintenance mode is avoiding temptation there are triggers. You can control so in that scenario you could quite i. Frankly remove chocolate from the house. I remember being with a client long ago and I can. I remember this this being such a funny face to me because we we have a candy drawer. We we Pat Candy Closet. We've had a I mean basically. We have a candy room of sorts at my house and I remember him saying. Oh we want to treat as a family we go to the storm. We buy a box of whatever movie theater candy or or that sort of thing and I just remember almost Stop in my tracks and you don't have a whole candy drawer. You don't have candy at your fingertips of semi. You don't have immediate access to candy and I just thought that was such a an amazing concept so avoiding temptation so doing whatever you can to just either address the trigger upfront. Or if there's that trigger and then you have thought than putting distance between thought and action and I could do a whole part of on mindfulness at at this point because the typically the behavior change will come first so the behavior getting up and leaving the room phoning friend Those those type of things and What you want to get to eventually where you can notice that thought So there's the trigger. Here's the thought. And then just not reacting to that thought noticing the thought making room for the thought all those nice wonderful mindfulness principles and and then the strategies is in stage five in this maintenance stages developing coping strategies for temptation so again that would be what. What are the things that you can do? Even if it's going into a mindfulness zen state or mode or turning to your breathing or again phoning a friend dropping down and doing push ups went on a walk walk and then they talked about remembering to reward yourself and so that can take on Any kind of different view a lot of times people here that reward yourself they think. Wait then you just give yourself the chocolate and it's like well. No the rewarding yourself can be a lot of different things their release for some people it might be purchasing something that they have been saving for something they wanted. Her are rewarding yourself can be spending quality time with a loved one or it can be spending time reading a book or it can be whatever that would be but trying to change. Changed that pattern so that the reward isn't always with the chocolate or the candy that sort of thing and then the last stage they talk about in the Trans Theoretical or stages is a change model is stage six which is relapse and the characteristics that typically follow with relapse our disappointment frustration and feelings of failure and those are the things that we we need to bring awareness to those are the things that we need to then throw our acceptance and commitment therapy principles around and if there is relapse if I have made it two weeks and I've eaten as clean as a whistle missile and I'm feeling amazing but then all of a sudden and this happens all of a sudden there's double stuffed oreos in the Pantry that are Christmas Talking hypothetically right and they've got the red filling in them and all of a sudden you're like I'm just GonNa get one or two and then before you know it you've eaten about six or seven and you stop yourself. There's disappointment there's frustration. There's feelings of failure so the acceptance and commitment therapy model that I love. You know that doesn't make me a horrible person You know that that's something it's just it's data. That's what happened. I can noted but I'm not gonNA fuse or Hook to the story of see you blew it. You can never do this. You'll never make it. I'm not going to allow myself to kind of get hooked to that thought or to those stories that my brain is trying to tell me because my brain is trying to do is going to connect me to the sea. You'll never do it gordon pound this whole bag of oreos. It's trying to get me down kind of going down that path. Yeah so as soon as you recognize relapse Then okay not. I'll make room for these feelings of disappointment or I'll make room for these feelings of frustration. But it's going to stop stop. They're not going to go down that path and beat myself up until myself. I'm a horrible person. Because that's that's the path of resistance that allows me to then completely scrapped my entire plan of change and what we're trying to do with this trans theoretical model of change along with some nice acceptance and commitment therapy skills saying hey I picked something. That's important to me because because it's one of my values something that I want to be or something that I want to do and And I'm GonNa do it because it's important to me because of these private experiences that I've had in my life that have brought let me to this moment and even if people are telling me. This isn't something that I want to do. I'm going to say hey. Thanks for your thoughts and opinion noted. But I'M GONNA keep moving forward and I'm going to go through these these these-these stages have already probably hit the stage one. The pre contemplation You know is a little bit of denial. Maybe a little bit ignorance of the problem moved onto stage to contemplation and had a little bit ambivalent not quite sure this is what I wanNA do some conflicted emotions but then I went into stage three preparation. I started making some small changes. Experimenting with Small Changes Ages and collecting information about the change which then that led to stage four action. Now we're taking direct action toward this goal this new value-based goal and we're starting to Sikhism social support. Maybe rewarding successes and then we move into stage five which is the maintenance face. This is where we're maintaining this new behavior. And we're doing all that. We can to note and avoid voight temptation. And we're developing coping strategies for station now remembering reward ourselves was probably some new healthier ways of reward and then that might be the place that we and I skipped his part in stage. Five where kinder- Cherry said during the state people become more assured that they will be able to continue their change so they're gonNA start putting some some pavement underneath them some miles behind him with this new these new characteristics these new behaviors so and for some they may write off into the sunset and live happily ever drafter but for for most. There's going to be a time where we're GONNA hit stage. Six this relapse and the characteristics. We're GONNA be disappointed. We're GONNA be frustrated. There's any feelings of failure and you know what nothing wrong with. Those thoughts feelings aren't automatic negative thoughts or those are thoughts. We're having because we're human and we've had all the experiences that have brought us up to that moment we probably had moments where we have have relapsed in the past and then just thrown everything out the window and said I C. I can't do it so we have these feelings of disappointment frustration again. Because we're humid if we didn't have those that's where I would almost say. Wait a minute you know and I like to throw in kind of humorous line if you didn't have those thoughts in the motions then your robot or psychopath and I know you're not so owed the key there's then identifying those triggers that lead to relapse recognizing what those barriers are success and then reaffirming your goals and your commitment to change. She says that while relapses APPS can be difficult. The best solution is start again with the preparation action or maintenance stages of behavior change so. Don't jump all the way back to pre contemplation ago that denial. It didn't even really really care about. This wasn't something I wanted anyway. And but I think that if there is relapsed. That's also a time to kind of look and see. Was this something that was. Was this change. Something that was is in line with with my values or was this a socially compliant goal was only trying to do this change because this is what I think I'm supposed to do or because this is what somebody else told me that I should I do and I think at that moment. That's where you can kind of dial back in and look at. What are the values behind the change that you're trying to make and then please again bullets into this Acceptance and commitment therapy. I guess it'd last week on Steven. Hayes is liberated mind. And you're going to get these new tools that allow us to recognize these thoughts that go through your mind especially asleep. Lots of failure that they're just thoughts. There's a whole bunch of thoughts that go through my mind at any given moment in during any given minute throughout the day. So why am I going to choose to into hook to those particular thoughts. Tell me that I'm I'm kind of not You know that I'm worthless or that. I'm unlovable that There's no hope those are not productive productive thoughts. I will note them. I'll make room for them but those aren't thoughts that are going to get very far so I am now realizing I am going on and on but passionate about about this so I want. I want twenty twenty to be truly a year where you're going to just recognize that you're okay. You have thoughts and feelings and emotions because you're human and because you're only human that has all the experiences that you have and you bring to the table and you're going to be okay and with that it's perfectly all right to start thinking about things that you would like to change. Change things that you can move from that pre contemplation stage to to a little bit of contemplation and then start setting the table for preparation. And then as you do that there might be people in your life. They're going to tell you that. Now you don't really don't WanNa do that and And just being able to recognize thought and emotion that comes along with that so hey thanks for Thanks for sharing. Your opinion noted but if if I feel it's important to me that I'm going to continue to move forward with this change. I hope we can see how this stuff all starts to come together. I save often in my practice and especially with people in my family. Where imagine this world where you do figure out that I'm okay? I'm thoughts and feelings and emotions have okay because again. I'm the only person that has all of my the unique situations and that you find yourself in a relationship where the person that you are in a relationship with is saying. Tell me more like that's your. That's your person that's your the partner and their goal is not to knock down your truth and your goal is not the knock down there truth. I mean how wonderful is that. And because that's the way you're going to be able to really explore change and become the person that you you've always wanted to be and if your partner's doing that you're doing that you're having these shared experiences and you're both kind of in this. Tell me more. What's that like? Here's what what I feel about that. Okay you know. It's so just empowering it's so edifying in all of those phrases I used to think we're a little cheesy before I became a therapist that it really is the one and one is three not two and then you throw these. EFT principles in these emotionally focused therapy principles in glistened episode one twenty nine. I don't remember many of the numbers of episodes that I've done. But that one is by Sue Johnson and this concept of secured attachment and why we are these attachment based creatures and there is nothing more beautiful than this kind of diatoms union. This dance with a partner that is there for you has your back you can count on. That really loves you anyway. I'm now going to really help the beaten path. Hey how about that change go get him said Trans Theoretical model or stages of change model I am grateful for your time. Time for For the trust that you put me on this podcast and Just know that I see people do these things all the time. This change this this This kind of finally going after their own values not the values of somebody else's projecting onto them but values that are important to them and that is a key to then living this life. Before you just feel more authentic more dialed in and then learning how to change that relationship with your thoughts which just leads to you. Just feel better about life. In general things are still going to come up bumps in the road. But you're going to be able to process them a lot more especially when you're operating from more of this value-based life all right. I will stop before I go into another tangent. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode. Owed please send it to those who might be able to eat something from it. And I'll see you next time on the virtual couch lotions flying incur out the other the daily grind. They they push things awesome and.

relapse Trans Theoretical ADHD Stephen Hayes Dot Com basketball Um Kinder- Cherry Dr Steven Tony Over Bay Dot Com Google partner Salt Lake Bart facebook Tony OCD Sue Johnson
The Barrett Brief  The Lincoln Project Gets Played By Trump

CRUSADE Channel Previews

10:59 min | 3 months ago

The Barrett Brief The Lincoln Project Gets Played By Trump

"All that. Going on today in the shadow of the. One, and a half debate. I don't know what this is. It's not the third debate. It's the second, but is it even going to happen? That's the question. That is the question. At, what point? Can Biden and the legacy media continue. Continue. To just ignore this right Dr. quote Unquote Jill Biden now is running around saying voters don't want to hear about the smears against their son Hunter Biden. It's not just your son anymore. Darling. Doctor Dr Biden it's not just your son. That these smears against or smears against your family, your family sold out the country. Doctor Biden. No more we see. How far these connections go out and up. Stopping at Joe Biden by the way. And connecting out now. To who his vice presidential pick Kamala Harris. Who was listed according to this on Fox News as a key contact for the Biden family's business venture products projects. This isn't even related to the email. Or the hard drives. Belonging to Biden this is string that is coming apart. It's pulling all sweater apart. So from Fox News there's a list of key democratic domestic context for joint venture involving Jim and Hunter Biden and now bankruptcy EFC China energy company. And includes former vice president Joe Biden's current running-mate. Kamala. Harris. It also includes Chuck Schumer Amy Klobuchar. Dianne Feinstein Gillibrand. New. York Governor Andrew Cuomo. New York. City Mayor Berry. What do any of these people? Why are they domestic context for an energy company? Any of those people that I just mentioned have any experience or any kind of reason to be a domestic contact. Of course. Tony Bubba Linski. Is One of the people that is being investigated as long as jeans? Giller Now. All of this is happening in the shadow of this third debate, which I've already said does Joe Biden show up. At what point can you keep your head down and pretend despite the fact? That even outlets lake, NPR. Oh yes. More breaking news that I forgot to talk about. Or introduced this top segment. The center Republicans finally grew a spine and I've actually subpoenaed Jack Dorsey. And I've actually put out Sabinas for Dorsey Mark. Zuckerberg one twitter facebook. In there. In regards to how they have been censoring. National Discourse, and then we have this. Completely tone deaf tweet dropped this morning. From National Communist Radio, I mean National Public Radio, which by the way needs to be defended and gone. In the air podcast and youtube videos. NPR serves no for no no function. No purpose. But listen to this condescending cocky tweet from the new from. NPR page why haven't you seen any stories from NPR about the New York Post Hunter Biden Story. This is legitimately somebody thought. This was a good idea to post out. We don't want to waste our time on stories that are not real stories. and. We don't want to waste the listener and readers times on stories that are pure. Distractions. National security compromising the compromising on a national security level. Of the Biden family is just a distraction. Oh, I'm sure we could go back through the NPR's catalog and looked through everyone about donald trump's taxes or impeachment or or the steele dossier. or any one of the seven million fake controversies? I didn't even check. I betcha if I go to NPR right now. Let's do this because we have a couple of minutes left in this I say one of the program They WanNa talk about stories that are just distractions. Let's do this in real time. How much do you WanNa bet my dear, listener the bear brief here on the crusade gentle. That they have a story on here about trump's secret Chinese tax. Or secret Chinese bank account. I bet you it's there. Just have to look a little bit of course is. Little Ones I'm on my God they must have it and it's like Oh yeah they don't have it but. They're. GonNa have. Determined. NPR has. Determined. That a the number one corruption story. In the last twenty years. And I don't think it's anything I don't think we're underplaying it. By saying it that way. The largest corruption story in the last twenty years. Is being labeled as a waste of time. As just a story that's a distraction it's not a problem it's not a big deal. I'm sorry but they got like seven bauge. Story. On Pope Francis. Yeah. That's not a story that's not a waste of time. Which I encourage you to listen to Mike Churches interview with Robert Morgan this morning kinda clear. A lot of things up there. But the legacy media in concert with social media is deciding what is important and what is not important for you to read which means they must. They must be put in check. They must be put in check. Because they are absolutely running wild. Because they they are they are looking at this. This story and we'll talk about it on the aside this story. That if it was if it was a Republican, we would have seven billion stories on it. We'd have the biggest expose ever but no because it's it's Joe and it's really not Joe. Kits Obama they're trying to protect. We'll talk about it more here in the crusade. Janelle. The last live radio station standing. Brief Show we believe in Omsk giving. So if you have any cheeseburgers, you think may be tainted by corona virus, bring them to us for testing. Welcome back to the here on crusade channel the last live radio station standing coming to you from the Republic of Texas you're on Belo's captain middle. America himself Barrett. Bring you the news of the day in the narrative that'll follow. Eight, four, four, five, two, seven, eight, seven, two, three. CRUSADE CHANNEL DOT COM forward slash chat C. H.. A. T.. username password email you're good to go. CHECK IT OUT AT CRUSADE CHANNEL DOT COM forward slash chat. All. Right. This segment of the program is brought to you by coffee. We all love coffee get yours at. My church DOT COM forward Slash Shop S. H. O. P.. Either Jews the delicious crusade cabbage in dark roast coffee. Or you can choose abby rose coffee from the benedict amongst of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Monastery and Silver City New Mexico. Either way you're to be drinking delicious gourmet coffee. Check it out today Crusade Chan Mike Church Dot com forward slash shop might church dot com forward slash shop. S.. H.. opie. Because you're going to drink anyway might as well drink good coffee. So we got a bunch of different things happening today we have all kinds of stuff happening today. By the way in the next segment of the program. We are going to be talking to Stephen Hayes President of American fare tax looking forward to that conversation especially in regards to. Comparing the fair tax to president. Vice. President. Biden's potential. Potential. taxes in regards to what his tax plan that he wants to put on. We have. Breaking news we got a couple audio clips coming in this first one. I. Just sent to Justin. My amazing producer comes do us right now. from Nancy, Pelosi's weekly speaking event her weekly conference where somebody asked. Now, legacy media start ask about hundred binds emails.

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Is the NRA still relevant? | PM Show

The Michael Berry Show

1:10:54 hr | 3 months ago

Is the NRA still relevant? | PM Show

"It's that time nine times. Mocking, load. Michael Berry show is on air. I. Hope You have early voted if you haven't please do. You'll have to go in the state you're in and look it up. Too, many people from too many different states. I can't answer state-by-state when you're early voting is and what your rules are. Pretty easy. The Secretary of State's office in your state. Is Likely the administrator of elections in your state. Five minutes on any of the search engines disagree do some reading. Get out there and vote election day will be here before you know it don't wait till election day to vote you will. I won't waste your time. please. Go and vote early. So, far Texas leads the nation in early ballots cast more than four million in Texas already four, million, sixty, four, thousand in person or absentee. According. To the US elections project that's already forty five percent of the total turn out that we had in Texas in two thousand sixteen when more than nine million votes were cast in. Texas which means that we're probably going to have a record turnout this year now. That's not certain. Because what that many early votes could mean is that the same people are voting, but they got really excited went and voted early they voted the first day they didn't wait around. Possible. It's possible or it could be that all these new registrations that have received very little attention. That the trump administration trump campaign should I say has managed that those people are first time voters. And, they are very excited to vote. The great story of this election season. That polls do not capture and analysts don't want you to know. Is. That Donald. Trump's. Registration effort. Has Been Unprecedented. For Republican candidate. We've never seen anything like this. He has out registered Joe Biden. Who is in hiding and has been since Monday because they have a debate on Thursday he son Downing if you don't know what son Downing is going going check when you get to a certain age and level of Dementia Your system shuts down in the evening. He can't have shutdown at an evening debate. So they've got him sleeping at different hours and all these sorts of things, and it's just it's what's happening. So you've got Texas with over four million early bat ballots cast California. is in second with more than three million votes cast Florida early voting started on Monday more than two and a half million votes cast. You know one of the things that gives me hope. Is If. You look at a trump rally wherever he holds them across the country. You see crowds and crowds of people in many cases. The crowds of people are in towns smaller than the crowd. Towns of three or four thousand people when he has a rally where there's ten thousand people show up. That means they're coming from from all around. This is like when the carnival came to town. When the carnival came to town People Mana, you knew the carnival wouldn't come very often. When the Carnival came to town you drove one hundred miles to go see it because that was the biggest show around. And if you missed it, you missed it. Donald Trump. Coming into these towns. And oftentimes, it's not L. A. Chicago New York Atlanta. oftentimes, it's it's small town that you didn't know already. In Pennsylvania. Miss. Michigan. Wisconsin West Virginia Florida. That he has to win win the election. Tell you one thing. If Donald Trump does not win. You can't blame him. It wasn't for lack of trying he lazy. They've gotta hi Joe. Biden for three four days at a at in a row. There's no, hiding donald trump. He's GonNa. Give it everything. He's got. Now, it's going to be up to others. Now, it's going to be up to others. I'm not going to spend more than two minutes on the what I'm about to tell you because I spent the entirety of the morning show on this. You can go back on our podcast and here by the way thank you for supporting our podcast for those of you who get this show, but don't get our three hours in the morning. Thank you for going and listen to our podcast and sharing it with your friends. I'M GONNA take two minutes and I'm going to put the timer on me to make sure I stick to it. Could give me three. Give it three. We had an officer murdered yesterday in another officer severely wounded. In Houston. It was a case where a Soros supported district attorney refused charges on Sunday when the guy was waving a gun around. So they went back two days later. Because again, he's beaten up on his wife. He shoots and kills an officer and severely wounds another one. It's a terrible terrible deal. The guys in a legal alien with a long criminal record. And yet, our George Soros Back District Attorney wouldn't bring charges on Sunday when the same officer went out there to try to get them to bring charges because he was waving the gun at his wife and everybody else and making threats back then. These are the consequences. This is what is at play in this election. This isn't a rare random one off situation. The George Soros backed district attorney's across this country. Have made it a practice that whatever the cops bring them in charges they won't prosecute them. The news coming out of Portland all of those protesters. Almost none of them prosecuted the news coming out of Minnesota in Minneapolis where they burn the city down. Those folks were were put back out on the streets, Kamala Harris. Had made a plea for bail. So they they wouldn't even have to stay a night in jail so that they could get back out and start burning and riding again because they believed it would hurt Donald Trump. If, they could burn the country down. The result has been exactly the opposite. Americans have decided that we want the rule of law we want order reestablished. We want a sense of security for our children for our streets. An illegal alien. Shot his own wife as part of this. Murdered a police officer. And severely injured another. Those two officers both black. So they're black labs didn't matter did they? Black Lives Matter Antifa the groups that support illegal aliens. They're. Not Out to. Help, black people. They're not out to protect black people. They're out to protect criminals. They're out to protect violence disorder disruption. Who is more likely to be the victim of what those people do? It's not rich white people got news for you. Rich. White people are paying the bills for black lives, matter and Antiga. It's not suburban white people. It's not rural white people who fled that nonsense. Who have good sheriffs? Constables who have safe streets and safe. Communities. It's inner city blacks and. Win Police departments don't enforce the law. In Seattle in Portland in Chicago. It is not rural white people or even suburban white people. Or? Rich. White people in dated on clubs. Who are the victims? It is blacks and Hispanics the poor and working class. We have got to tell that story. We have got to win those elections and I think trump's GonNa do better with both groups this election cycle than any Republicans ever done. I believe that. Because they are motivated. And they see that the violence is in their community. If. You will help that officer go to assist the officer dot com scroll down officer. Waller he has three young children. I would appreciate it assist the officer Dot Com. It's tax deductible. The Michael Berry show continues. Be Nice. To you. Is it. Is. Time. Co.. Guess is Dave Rubin He is the author of don't burn this book thinking for yourself in an age of unreason. It is that an ODA ray Bradbury where where'd you get this? It's a bit of an old to Ray Bradbury, but it more than anything else I think it's an Ode to time when things were just slightly saner than they are right now because really all I lay out in the book and what I think are common sense principles and yet they apparently are highly flammable these days because some of the stories that the books were in got burned down in the midst of all these riots over the last couple of months you know a couple of targets went down and we were doing quite well in target until that. Oh target stores I still okay. Yeah. Okay. Makes Sense. Let me ask you I want to get back. But let me ask you a as part of your bio did not say. That you are the host of the Rubin Report, which is available on blaze TV Glenn Back I don't Know Glen I I've met him twice at a talkers conventions, but he sure seems to do a lot to identify talent out there and provide a platform for them. How'd you get to know him? Yeah. Well, you know it's really interesting because for for those of your audience and they don't know anything about my polit-. Political evolution I think lefty most of my life I was progressive I. was on the Young Turks Network, which is a far left political network, and if you would've told me five years ago that you know I'd be in cahoots or I'd be working with an ally. Maybe. Dennis Prager I would've told your year completely nuts Now, What's interesting is my my show, the Rubin report, the interview show, and now my direct to camera show I'm completely independent in that, we produce it and we I'm in control of the content and everything that I say is directly coming out of my mouth I have no boss or anything like that. But we do distribute the show through the blades and they handle our ads and things like that. But I can tell you that in the last couple of years the first time I met Glen was was when he was on my show, so you can see the very moment. We said hello for the first time. That's when he walked into my studio and yeah, we have some political disagreements but more than anything else we we want to live in the same country we wanna live in a place that you can agree to disagree that you can have a battle of ideas and then hopefully the best ideas win and I think more than anything else we both don't want the government to solve all of our problems. We actually see the government as the problem in most cases, and that's what sort of brought us together and I think Glenn is built something really really nice a nice limb trim operation with the blaze and Small the new big in that, you know we've watched big tech companies become huge behemoth. And I think smaller networks actually you're going to be the future because I don't think that these big behemoths are gonna be able to stand I. Think they've grown too big for their Britches. One of the things that I appreciate is that in the last five years, the advent of cheap technology more accessible technology has created more content creators used to there was rush limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, and a few others but now literally everybody can do their own TV show their own podcast and I think that's good. I. Think we've created you know there are more black conservatives more gay conserved more immigrant conservatives more different. Perspectives and I find that to be a very, very healthy thing and I gotTa Glenn Credit in addition to being a guy who's a talent in and of himself he seems to have really gone out of his way to help promote some other people and give them platforms some of whom went onto Fox some of whom went on to other forms of fame and I think that deserves to be noted because not everybody does that. Though not everybody does it and you know the interesting thing is I think you know in a business like this you're gonNA obviously got a lot of people who were jealous. They don't want to see someone else's star rise you know quicker than theirs or or higher than theirs and and Glenn doesn't have any of that. You know he's he's been very good to me and and I truly. I've never heard anyone say a bad word about him on the on the personal side. So he he's been very good and and to. Your wider point about you know more voices instead of less I mean that's been the beauty of the Internet, and that is in a bit of a tenuous position right now as we watch big tech sort of the winners and losers. Yeah. So I am worried about that. But the fact that the overton window, the idea that there's a certain set of ideas that are acceptable at any given moment. Well, the Internet has widened that and I think that's good. Now that's not to say, it doesn't come with some risk because. Everyone's out there saying whatever they want. I'm for that at a free speech level but it can confuse people as to what actually is true and people can end up in their own echo chambers, and that's just the type of stuff that we as as people in a modern society with social media and all that that's that's on now on us to figure out who is trustworthy and and what's right because as a general rule, I would always prefer more voices than what? He's the author of the New York Times Bestseller don't burn this book thinking for yourself in an age of unreason I don't know if you've seen in I can't remember if it's Netflix's or Amazon but they've got a new film out about the trial of the Chicago, seven. And there's Nothing well, they they give a very sympathetic view to Hayden and Abbie, Hoffman and Rubin, and the like. But one of the things they talk about in there is that Abbie Hoffman we don't know how many of his books actually ended up in the hands of of aspiring radicals because the title of it was still this book that having to do with the title of don't learn this book. It it did actually You know one of the things that I go into the book is when I signed the deal with Penguin Random House the publisher I was GonNA, write a book called less and less on the actual deal that I signed. It said that was gonna be the title of the Book and I start writing that book for about two months and I felt that. After a couple of chapters I kind of felt that these were ideas that I had already said and I I didn't like the idea of writing about something that I'm against meaning the left in the modern sense I wanted to write about what I'm for and and that is the ideas of classical liberalism, which in many ways is, is today's conservatism and then. the idea of don't burn this book we bounced around a couple of titles, and then one of our ideas was that we were going to have another and it was gonna be another title altogether. But then around it, we were GONNA have a red sorta band and it was going to say don't burn this book and you were going to have to rip it. To actually open the book and we were sitting there one day and I had the old penguin team around and to my assistant and a few other people and we all thought you know. Somebody said it and it was just like Oh. Don't burn this book that actually that actually feels right and then of course, the irony is I started saying before was that we didn't realize that it wasn't going to be the book it was necessarily being burned but. That the book were in the title don't burn the story that this book is out. That would guessed they're going to burn down your book was in less danger of being burned in and of itself than target store I mean good than a target store or a pep boys or any of the mom and pop shops that have that have unfortunately closed or have their windows destroyed or literally burned down in the last six months kind of a coup. Joe. Dr. Jordan Peterson author of twelve rules for life gives you a nice little plug on the front of it. I love that guy. I mean, there really aren't words to describe Jordan I was on tour with Jordan for a year and a half during his twelve those for ice tour that that book. So you know something like five five or six million copies think at least and he changed the lives of quite literally millions of people and You know he he actually was gonNA write the foreword for don't burn this book, but he's had health trouble over the past year. So he was unable to do that but I was just thrilled that he could even or the blurb in there. We're talking to Dave Rubin he is the author of don't burn this book think for your stinking for yourself in age of unreasonable continue that conversation coming up next. With me no test required. You've definitely got it. We wish you well and I have a good. See You. Got The Michael Berry show. Now give it to everybody else by turning up the volume. There you go. A. Talking Today Rubin, he is the author of don't burn this book thinking for yourself in an age of unreason. Dave I want to explore your evolution, your growth development, whatever term you use for it your noted earlier that you were left wing as an adult. was that to us that overused phrase what was that a HA moment? What was that turning point that you started questioning so that you could begin a journey in a different direction. You there are three specific examples that I that I go into the book where I had sort of up moments. But I give you a broad one that I think was sort of the underpinning of of these three specific moments and that was that when I was on the young Turks, which as I said before it's pretty far left Progressive Network everyone that we disagreed with was called a racist and Homophobic, and you know some version Nazi I mean just some of the worst stuff you could possibly people, and after time you know at first that kind of sounds good I think it's why so many young people are attracted to these ideas if everyone that you're disagreeing with the worst thing ever well, then you're sort of by default the best thing ever you're helping people and those are the oppressors and their evil and your good that that's sort of sexy and if you don't really think about it, it's a very simple way of. Of understanding the world. Now, of course, it's not true and what I started realizing didn't make sense. So if you look at it as sort of a math equation. Four. Except it wasn't possible to me that we could be so not only morally right. But so obviously correct about everything and at the rest of these people were such sort of idiots and morons and and bad people in essence if you call someone a bigot and racist, you're saying that they're they're a bad person and the more that I was around that feeling we're right they're wrong. It started breaking down and then in the book I lay out these three. Moments that I had. One was when I had conservative talk show host. Larry. Elder on my show and he really schooled me about systemic racism Another one was when I had David. Webb, who's a conservative black man Sirius Xm radio host on and and we got into it a little bit and also there was a moment I was on the young Turks and they were showing the video about David Webb and they were calling him an uncle Tom, and some of the some of the worst things you could you could call a black person and what they didn't know is that. I was friends with him from my old days it Sirius Xm and that this is an honest good man and when I saw the way that they were treating him just because he didn't think the way they wanted him to think as a black man go man you guys are actually the racist you call everyone else rates but you're the rates and then the third one, and this is the one that's really broke the camel's back the straw that broke the camel's back was in January of I believe it was twenty seventeen was the Charlie Hebdo the terrorist attack in France when Islamist Jihadist Broke into the Charlie Hebdo offices, which was a popular French magazine Satire Magazine, and they murdered cartoonist over images of Muhammad and what I saw on the left was people basically saying Oh don't poke the bear don't offend these people and and there was almost no sympathy to actual victims and I thought wow, this is actually the soft bigotry of low expectations. You think that a certain group of people if you offend them that they have a right to kill you and that's a deeply dangerous idea. So those those are the three that I laid out in the book. So what do you say to that person out there that young person out there that is where you were. And, and is saying I'm beginning to question some things but I don't want to think the way my parents do. I don't want to be at odds with all my friends that I hang out with or work with I don't WanNa have to question every idea I've had for all of this this time that's that's discomfort. There is comfort in consistency and continuity. So what are you saying person? Why does it matter? It matters because I think it is your job in life to figure out what you think and and think about your life seriously so that then you can have a that school of purpose and full of meaning and hopefully full of fun and humor in love and and all of the things that that make a life. Great. If you don't think about these things, it'll be very easy for you to be swayed by by bad ideas and then I think that's partly. vocalism you know this this new leftism, this idea in of. Identity politics the rest of it I think that's why in effect it has become trendy because you don't really have to think about it. It sort of you know if you're this color, you deserve this. Then if you're this color, you deserve this and that's a very simple way of looking at the world. It's a very immature way of looking at the world, but it's the golden compass and way of looking at the world and and I know that anyone listening to this Radio. Show does not want to be judged solely by their skin color solely by their gender solely by sexuality and yet we've created a political. Or cultural set of ideas that that basically tell you. That's it and I want to be judged by any of those things on Mike on sure. You don't want to be judged by does things you want to be judged by the content of your character as that that old school Martin Luther King. Junior once that. You got a couple of points here. About the book that I've I've not yet read reading those one of the things you talk about is checking your facts not your privilege can speak to that. Yeah. Well, this is one of the big ones because you know we're we're told to check your privilege meaning that Gen- generally they mean if you're a white Christian male especially if your your privileging society and you should just sit there and shut up and not not say what you think because because you know because you've been privileged now that of course, this is crazy I mean there. Are More, actually poor white people. Then there are poor black people and we can get into numbers on these sort of things and just because you're you're born a certain skin color or a certain religion doesn't surly name that you have have anything you could be born to drug addicted parents you could be born poor you could be born in an abusive household. There's a million of those things. But we've been told it quietly if you are this and that that's very dangerous So. The idea of the chapter really is understand what you're talking about. So in that Chapter I go into some of the stats on gun violence. I go into some of the stats around economics and things so that we get into an argument with somebody and they just say something about police brutality, for example, your arms with some numbers now that doesn't mean that they're going to accept. but you should at least know you're talking about as a counterbalance to just being smeared because of the way you were born. You know it's It's it gives me such hope that someone can go from such a radical position. To, a different radical position or a different strongly held position as an adult because it means that we are all imperfect creatures I think it is a great compliment to you to be able to have the intellectual maturity to say. Maybe what I believe is wrong. Let me do some some analysis. Let me do some self expiration and figure that out. Dave, can you hold for just a moment we're up against a break, but I want to continue this conversation. All right. Dave Rubin is our we will continue our conversation. The book by it read it is don't burn this book thinking for yourself in an age of unreasoned. The Michael Berry. Show. ME. Grammy. Ruben is the host of the Rubin report. which is available anywhere you want to see it including on blaze TV. He's the author of the New York Times Bestseller don't burn this book thinking for yourself in an age of unreason I liked the idea and boy, it could not be more. Timely. One of the points you make in the book, one of the themes is standing up to the mob against today's absurd pc culture. How do you advise people not everyone is as bold as you are, how do you advise people to do that? Well I you gotTa do it. You know the the simple truth is if you don't stand up for yourself if you have a belief for thought. Or whatever it might be and you don't stand up for yourself it will lead you to misery. Without question not lately be the misery. It will lead you to never standing up for yourself in any way. Once once you can see that at some level that someone else's opinions or more important than yours. Well, you're you're frogging a slowly boiling pie think that nothing bad is happening but the temperature is constantly being turned up and as the old saying goes, this is not going to end well for the frog you you have to stand up. For what you believe in and I think you know this really is what the essence of the book is about it to know what you're talking about. No why you believe what you believe and fight for those things honestly and an issue do that it doesn't mean you're live a perfect life. I certainly don't live the perfect life but what it does mean is that you'll be living at least somewhere. Within the orbit of a life that's that's probably pretty close to the one that if you were a kid and you could envision what your future is, it's probably close to that one that meaning you're probably something like a decent person and you've probably you've probably encouraged other people in your small circles to to live better lives themselves and I and I just believe that society is a bottom up project. If we as individuals start doing a little better than than the top stuff, the political elite and all of that that they'll get better I don't believe in about a top down society where the the people above us should somehow teach us to be good and right and all of those things it's it's on us it's not on them. They are US innocent. Free speech, courage speaking out, changing, improving, growing, I love it. Don't burn this book thinking for yourself in an age of unreason Dave Rubin, the host of his own TV show and the author of this book Dave? You're welcome to come back anytime. You're a great guest my both my pleasure. Thanks so much. You GotTa Buddy let's shift gears for moment. Shall We? And cover the Joe Biden. Bockel. Look. If a guy has a kid a crackhead or. A philanderer. I know that some people enjoy. The show Freud of that. I don't really see it as being relevant. Sometimes good parents can have kids that go wayward. Actually pray for him. Breaks your heart and I've seen I've seen what appear to be good parents and their kids just. Go through a phase or a life that causes him a lot of misery. I, don't take joy in that. I do not take join that because I pray for my own kids every day and I know you do as well. But the Hunter Biden story is important for another reason that does affect you in me. And that is that Hunter Biden. have been for sale to foreign governments. In order to get access to Joe Biden and other high-ranking officials in the government. That's the problem. It's illegal and it's a problem. One of the reasons I think he made very bad decisions. Is because he does have a lot of addictions and he has real impulse control problems. This a man who left his wife to take up with his recently deceased brother's wife. And left her to take up with the woman. He had known for six days. And? Then, of course, embarrassed her by getting a stripper pregnant. And he denied paternity there. Is a guy with some real problems. Now. Rudy Giuliani who himself can occasionally be a bit of a loose cannon. As announced, he's handed over the text messages from the laptop that was hunter Biden's that he left. Apparently, allegedly. In in Delaware his state, his father represented the Senate for longer than most people been alive. So, why is this important? Well. You know a friend of mine said something to me that really hit home. He said you know before any of us knew about all this. This was handed to the FBI. And the FBI under trump chose. Not to do anything with it, they didn't even want to know about it. So. Wait a minute. You've got a laptop that purports to show. emails. Between Hunter Biden. And Foreign Governments. Where they talk about the exchange of money in exchange for getting to meet with his father. Vice. President. And do deals with foreign governments using our government. This is as high crime as you can imagine. Why did the FBI refused to even review it? Because it wasn't credible bull. It's obviously credible. It's his computer should look like. Based on what's on their? Did, they not pursue it because they didn't believe it was true. Absolutely not. Did they not then pursue it because they feared. It was true. Which means we haven't fixed the FBI. Which means? There's some other stras six and Co. Eason Lisa. Pages in McCabe 's and Bruce Ores. Did. You know that Bruce or resigned a few weeks ago. To avoid getting fired. Bruce was one of the top guys in the collusion investigation of trump. That, they completely manufactured to try to win the election. The problems aren't solved obviously. And, if trump as president can't rain the FBI in because he can't go run their office all day every day who can. What will they be doing under a Biden administration? And then you've got the New York Times or The Washington Post that some people still trust as providing news. You. They won't report on this. So most of it is never known to the public. You almost can't blame somebody as I don't believe all that. I never saw that I never saw that in the news. So somewhere somebody is making phone calls. To the media and going, hey, hey, we got this story. It's okay. It doesn't fit with our narrative. Trump win. You got more details, bats. Okay. We don't want what if we just make it what if we just keep adding more and more details? And they just keep going no no, we don't want to know anything about it. Folks. This should be very very concerning. Very concerning. Lucy newsroom can I help you? I have details on a news story involving hunter, Biden, leaving evidence on a laptop in Delaware that proves he sold access to the White House to foreigners you guys want to run the story that's Okay We. Also have proof hundred smoked math with prostitutes. A. Fight include him with. Underage. Girls. New Story BUBBA. CNN. Hello. Queen of England was also smoking math with. Underage Prostitutes No. Thanks. CNN Yes. Also, SASQUATCH was there Junior. Wait did you say Don Jr. was there to will definitely run that story? No I'm sorry not done junior I met Jeffrey toobin please stop calling here. It's that time sign. Lured. Phil Michael Berry show is on Air I understand that talk of tax policy is not sexy it's not thrilling. It's not something that a lot of people can can sink their teeth into but tax policy drives or stifles innovation entrepreneurism economic growth. How much money we have how much money we make what kind of businesses we have all of this is directly linked to tax policy, and yet we spend too little time talking about it. We're going to do our part to fix that today. Our guest is Stephen. Hayes is the president of Americans. For Fair taxation, you can find them at fair tax dot Org. We're going to talk about his organization, but let's dive right into the question that if someone's going to take away something from this conversation. Is it true that Joe Biden's tax policy. Steven Hayes is it true that his tax policy would raise taxes on eighty, two percent of Americans and how does that happen? It's it isn't true if you listen to his rhetoric. But if you listen to what he's actually proposing and again he's so typical of. Politicians, really in general. But what he's doing is he's he is doing effectively soundbites. and. His soundbites are here is something that I'm going to address I'M GONNA? Make this. That's the whole overlay of everything he's saying. You know he starts off by saying I'm going to raise your taxes. Comma. If you make over four hundred, thousand a year. That's the way he starts off. In in effect what he's saying is I'M GONNA raise taxes, and I'm telling you it's going to be over four, hundred, thousand. We all know from experience that that four hundred thousand is a talking point and that's the reality is that he's going to raise taxes. He's GonNa have to raise taxes on body if he looks to fund even a tiny portion. Of the spending that he's promised I mean come Outta here. For example, his vice-president had an incredibly expensive guaranteed annual income bill. She introduced you've got all of the environmentalists that WanNa do all of these environmental great things which are going to cost us immense amounts of money. They want to shut down factories and every factory job. The multiplier effect means that we lose about seven hundred and forty four other jobs. So you've got a situation where they are doing the normal thing. They're saying we're only going to raise taxes on the wealthy. But if you look at all of the things, he's proposing the net effect is going to be a tax increase on everybody and it's only going to change, and this is what really worries me the most I go. Is if they subscribe to the modern monetary theory. which. Says deficits don't matter. That debt doesn't matter and the only purpose of taxes is simply to curb inflation. Now, that's the theory. It's they call it modern. It's been around since the early nineteen hundreds. That keynes used when he was proposing to Roosevelt out in the thirties to do deficit spending. That's a concept that really says, taxes don't matter. So the reason I put that caveat on. Is, that that be insane for him to say because almost all of America. Doesn't buy into the idea you can spend with. No. No consequences. However, that's his idea. You know. The curbing inflation you you you you through that in at the end, but the idea that tax increases would curb inflation. I wonder if people really understand what he's saying there that's the equivalent of saying look. Everybody's getting to rich we we've got too much money flowing. So what we're GONNA do is force everybody to close four days a week, and that way people won't be as rich and so poor people won't see the disparity between themselves and the doers I mean that that is basically harnessing are hampering economic growth. But using euphemisms to describe and when people wake up and realize what's happening. That's the consequence of this policy. It's not a bug in the system it's a design in the system. Yes. Yes, and Michael. That is what what they're hoping. I really believe this because I've read some of the books written on modern monetary theory by some of the quote. Intellectuals. What they really do they spend like, uh Stephanie Kelton, who was an adviser to Biden at one point and other leading Democrats wrote a book about the deficit Miss. She called it and the first half was trying to establish why From an economic point of view, it could make sense and she made some good points like Japan has got three hundred percent ratio of debt to GDP and there, and they have actually deflation inflation and she went on and on. And then the other half was all the ways that she would take this endless flow of money and spend it. And she basically was proposing. All of the things that he wants to do all the infrastructure, all of the green energy, all those things would be done. She wanted to make sure and it was almost like this guaranteed annual income. That substantial part. Of the population became dependent on government for their base support. And by doing that, she would ensure that her party and her part of the party got reelected every time. So I think it's even more insidious because the plan behind this is to say flowery words in to talk about how we're only gonNA do this balancing a demand for goods with the rich whereas we know that if you cut demand. You cost jobs all the way down the line if you if you take it so that that person making, let's say keep it at four, hundred thousand for the first week. That spending that person can do is going to be reduced substantially. There are predictions that in some of the states. You Know California. Illinois New York that the actual rate will be over sixty two percent of the person's income. So you've got a situation where you're got to look at the reality. And the reality is what you said. The money is in the middle class, the money's not at the top what are the top people going to do? They're going to set their incomes up in such a way that they have less income unless tax they're gonNA do something like Larry Ellison did it Oracle? You know he has a huge line of credit? Secured by his stock. And he uses that. Buying of credit to buy his yachts to buy his. Ferraris or whatever it is he buys his big houses. And he just pays tiny amount of interest. I don't even know what it is now, but I, think it's under two percent for the the money, but he avoids selling the stock and paying capital gains. And huge amount of tax because he has such a low basis. And that's just what the wealthy can do. That's not something that almost the rest of the. Population could even consider well, wait you have strategic avoidance of liquidity events. In order in order to avoid taxes, which means that the traditional economic activity. It is is being stifled a whole with us for just a moment we're talking to. Stephen Hayes. About taxation he's with Americans for fair taxation, you can find them online at fair tax dot org more of our conversation with him about Joe Biden's tax plan coming up. More, Michael Barry Show coming up. One two. One to. Even Hayes is our guest. He is the president of Americans for fair taxation and you know I, I gotTa, Tell You I. If. If we focused in this election in casting our votes on the basis of things like tax policy, which really matters as opposed to things like well, well, I don't like what he tweets are. He's Nice. The other one's not nice. These the things that matter our tax policy, the things that matter are are we going to war or are we getting out of forever worse? The these are the sorts of things that are going to affect you and your life there they matter and yet there is so little conversation about them, which is a nice way of patting ourselves on the back for being such a serious and important show. Ramon, that's what this is about. Steven Hayes our guest, Stephen Talk about the INS and outs of the Biden tax policy as you understand it, and if you would bring that home to people in terms of what industry somebody might be in or what bracket they might be in and what those numbers are going to start to look like. Well the first thing in order to pay taxes, you gotTa have a job. That's always the thing that's omitted from a lot of these conversations because. Somehow or other. The planners DC are so insulated from the real world that they assume that anything that they put into a spreadsheet. and run through their computers. Whatever it says is what's going to happen I mean I was familiar back in the eighties with. The final eighty, six reform act, and I remember talking to some senators who said that they were exhausted the night before they got the final. Bill agreed to. They were exhausted and they gave their. Staff who was advising them. And they were both Democrat and Republican staff members the job of looking to see how much money would be raised if they put a hundred percent tax on anyone making more than two, hundred and fifty thousand. And they did this as a joke. But he said nobody laughed. And then the next morning these guys came in they've been up all night and they were very proud to say that this. Tax One hundred percent tax was going to raise some like fifty million, a hundred, million billion I don't remember what the number was. And? They thought the Senators, the joke being played on them and they realize people were serious. They thought that because the computer said, it would raise as much money that people who were making over two hundred and fifty thousand. A year would just continue to work at the same rate and expose their income to one hundred percent confiscation. That's the first thing that we have to look at when we say what is Biden's tax plan we have to look at who is creating the tax plan. So number one they're assuming that their economic models which are only looking at here's how much taxes being paid today. And if we increase the rate by one percent by percent ten percent whatever. We're going to increase revenues by whatever that percentage is based on the total income. I mean that's the way they do their calculations i. I have to tell you Michael. I've sat there. With people on the joint economic. Committee. And looked at how they think these things through. So, this is not exaggerate. This is the way they look at. So they look at it and they ignore the fact. That if they increase the corporate tax. Backup which Biden. proposes. That it's going to make our companies less competitive. What does that mean? That means that they can sell less that means that when they're competing with foreign producers for the same market? Let's say in the US there at a disadvantage. What does that ended up being that means they produce less if they stay in business and that means that people who were employed. Many will lose jobs. and. It also means that for every job. That is lost in the manufacturing area. You're talking about according to economic policy and sued. Around seventy like a thousand jobs manufacturing to seven, hundred, seven, thousand, four, hundred jobs and other areas why because of all the income created when the manufacturer buys products and of all the money spent by the people working so this is all ignored. So my first real concern. With. Biden's tax policy and even trump says you've got to look at the overall impact. Now when you're cutting taxes, which is what trump has consistently tried to do. You're obviously not decreasing economic activity. You're increasing the ability for economic activity. But as we talked about. This whole conversation. Abidance taxes and Biden doing this, it's simply a waste of time if we had a sane tax system, for example. If we went to the fair tax, which is a national retail sales tax. On new goods and retail services. Eliminating. Collecting the payroll tax, you pay social security and Medicare through the sales tax eliminating the income of personal and corporate tax. And eliminating state and gift tax. Now what you have. IS A. Rate. And Right now it's twenty three percent. That is collected every time you make a retail purchase. You get hundred percent of your money. And then you pay your taxes when you go do it. Now what happens like for one thing Michael you and I would not be talking about if we were show today. About the Biden tax. Plan. But we would be talking about what I didn't is going to do on things that matter just like you talked about before what's he gonNa do to make us safer? Is he going to us into war? All the stuff about taxes is frankly they distraction and the truth is that if we had a sane tax system. We would not have. A system where every two years. People in business and in life have to wonder. If the taxes are going to be changed to the point that they're planning. is going to be ineffective. I mean you've worked in the business world your wife's work in the business world and we all know that most plans are not one or two year plants in order to do something in the business, you've gotta make plans that go into the future. What would this whole tax thing nobody knows how to plan because it can make such an impact? On the net to you based on what you can deduct what your percentage of tax rate is. What's insane. What when you look at The hallmarks of the American economy and the reasons for this nation's unprecedented. Success comparatively, which created incredible prosperity, which we've shared with the world. It's it's amazing. But the big part of that as you know as a former tax lawyer and as a guy that studies tax policy. Is, consistency. Certainty reliability people plan. But you know the thing that I think you were you were alluding to earlier is that you can't create tax policy in a vacuum you can't simply sit in a room and say, well, if we raise the tax amount, we collect this amount because you're removing the human element we know yes that you can make policy. But what you can't know is how people are going to react and people don't willingly pay more in taxes. So they find us thinking when you were talking earlier, Stephen Momma started wandering to a word I haven't heard in decades tax shelter. You know when I when I was a baby lawyer tax shelters a big term, and in this economy in in the trump tax plan, you haven't needed tax shelters to the extent that that that people did in the past and that's a great thing and we would go back to a world where people have to hide their income and alter their behaviors because they're not simply going to expose themselves in their capital to risk. If they can't keep a greater percentage of what they get because you lose all of it. You don't get to keep all of it. Unfortunately I am out. Of Time we would love to have you back. He's Stephen Hayes of the Americans for fair taxation online at fair tax dot Org He has forgotten more about this than Joe, Biden or his advisers will ever know and we'd love to talk to him. Thank you. Very. Seen. Our guest today is a gentleman we've had on before. He's the editor of bearing arms dot Com. He's a host of a podcast called forty acres fool. He is a very, very clever witty. Twitter writer talking about his attempts to run a small farm. And he will occasionally as he's done this week, rip your heart out because his lovely wife e is suffering through stage four lung cancer and they've been very open and honest about sharing. The difficulties, highs, the lows, the hopes, and the like. And he's our guest Cam. Michael. How are you sir? Fantastic. And more importantly has e. what's our update? I've been following your cigna a situation my heart goes out to you. The last thing you need to be worried about is fighting with insurance companies while you're trying to beat this horrible thing. Hey I appreciate that we're sort of fighting on two fronts right now dealing with the insurance company trying to get them to To expedite an appeal of their denial of the cancer drugs that are doctor wants to give her but we're also working with the drug company itself to. Try to get her those drugs through compassionate use but today is her birthday actually. We're we're trying to you know not necessarily said all of that aside maybe we're we're hoping for a birthday present from the insurance company but you know she's doing okay man she was actually out this weekend we butchered to. Probably. Four hundred pound hogs I saw that I saw that she was she was right there the big of it. was wearing a t shirt that was it seth weather somebody had had brought for ya I can't remember who? It was Cameron Gray. Yes. who is my foreign producer at takamine company a great guy and I it cameras got a part time Gig producing the college and NFL Football Games. So when he was in New Orleans a couple of years ago, he stopped off at a restaurant called co Sean and got her assured. It's fantastic looks like like like the old like Ronnie James Dio Album covers uh-huh and it's the sort of Valerie Viking woman writing this massive hogging says. Layer on it and That is the most appropriate shirt ever to wear when you're butchering the odd. Yeah. That was I was just impressed with her butchering a hall a it was it was laid out all nice and neat. It was still girly but who man? Kam I. Yes I was talking yesterday to someone who was that we were talking about. The polls in different states and and more importantly what's going on in those states you've been very involved in the state of Virginia where I believe you live where the governor black face and the the Senate and the House they're impose some pretty serious gun control and it really seemed to motivate in mobile is a gun owners in that state and I'm curious how that will affect what's what's going on now with this election. You know I'm curious to and I have a suspicion that it is going to play a role You know you go back to January of this year. He's like five years ago. Twenty twenty cents along. But we had you know thirty or forty thousand gun owners show up in Richmond Virginia. To lobby against the gun control bills I've never seen anything like it. I was honored to speak at this event and it was just amazing I mean they filled up the streets of downtown Richmond We were able to water down some of these gun control proposals and we were able to defeat a governor black faces. Worst proposal, which was a ban on SO-CALLED SALT weapons ten round magazines and legally owned suppressors were not going to be able to legally keep. These items that you currently own. We're able to eat that bill thankfully, but it did really awaken gun owners. We had municipal elections back in May some really surprising upset. At the local level yet anti gun city council members voted out and replaced with pro gun council members. In College, San of Stanton Virginia and you know I, think the gun owners right now we are energized. We were mobilized in Virginia I honestly I don't know if it's GONNA BE ENOUGH To Turn Virginia read in terms of Donald Trump beating Joe Biden and I. Hope that it is but I think that gun owners have the opportunity now size role in several congressional races We've got several first term Democrats who won in two thousand eighteen that blue wave election and they're now squaring off against. Several pro Second Amendment Thal supporters of the right to keep and bear arms in the seventh congressional district in the Second Congressional district in Virginia and I believe it's the first congressional district as well. So we've got an opportunity I think to to make some inroads in the house gun owners are going to be showing up to vote. They have already started. We've got early voting underway and I, think that they're gonNA play and outside role on the elections this year, not only in Virginia but frankly around the country as well. Record High Gun sales that we've seen over the past few months I. Hope you're right. Let's go back to Nineteen Seventy two Republicans Win Virginia in seventy two with Nixon seventy, six with Ford Eighty with Reagan eighty, four with Reagan Eighty, eight with Bush ninety, two with Bush over Clinton Ninety six with Dole two thousand with Bush over Gore two, thousand, four Bush over carried in two, thousand eight, which was a quirky year for lots of reasons and a lot of sort of Purple Ish States Obama Wins Two thousand twelve he's reelected two, thousand, sixteen surprisingly. Hillary gets forty nine point eight percent of the vote Donald Trump gets forty, four point four. So I don't know if. What has happened. To Change Virginia. So dramatically is this people that moved to DC and worked for the bureaucracy. It's a very different situation in in Texas but what's going on? Yeah I think you nailed it, you know I moved to Virginia in two thousand and four, and I was one of those folks who moved to the DC suburbs at the time Fairfax County, which is the most populous DC suburb. It was purple But as you know, government has expanded and it's not only the government workers, but it's the contractors you know those folks that are affiliated with with government organizations as that bureaucracy has grown over the years northern Virginia has become more solidly blue You get about thirty miles or so outside of Northern Virginia and all of a sudden you're in what folks call Real Virginia. And very conservative place. You know you still have Democrats in charge in Richmond Virginia. Beach I think is another area that's become a little bit more blue and say the big military community but Democrats have been able to make some inroads and they over the past decade or so I don't think that Virginia is loss but I think the Virginia is also suffered at the state level by. Running some some candidates that that did not have statewide appeal couple of years ago. The gubernatorial election. Corey Stewart just got. Hammered you gotTA humor the US. Can you hold a moment? Can says our guest forty acres, and a fool is his podcast. You can follow him on twitter we'll talk Virginia politics. The Michael Berry show. A. Edwards is our guest camp. It's no secret that the NRA is not going to be as influential as it wasn't two thousand sixteen and I would argue there probably was not a single more influential organization in supporting the president in making a difference in that election how big a loss is that for those of us who want to see Donald Trump win. You know I. I think that it is going to be felt but I think there are a couple of factors here. You know gun owners were never going to be able to outspend gun control groups Michael Bloomberg. Two. Thousand Sixteen the left one after the NRA for spending sixty million dollars. Tobacco Donald Trump, right they thought that was outrageous Michael Bloomberg is dropping a hundred million dollars in the state of Florida to elect Joe by. Just one state He's been millions more in states like Texas. You try to flip the state legislature blue. So we knew that we were never gonNA be able to compete dollar for dollar with gun control groups the the real influence I think that the NRA has in terms of getting out the vote is is openly through things like political victory fund engaging in voter average. They are still doing grassroots engagement with voters, but you also have organizations like the. Second Amendment Foundation that have stepped up to the table they've got a program get out the vote effort called the Second Amendment first responders, and so we are seeing the second in the community I think step up. But honestly, the most important thing that gun owners can do right now is talk to their friends talk to their neighbors, talk to the people at the range and make sure that everybody knows how important it is to get out there and vote this election. Is going to be decided in the margins in a lot of states and goners. You know we can add one or two or three or four percent of the vote, and we can we expect these elections and it's going to be vitally important because then cacus and they've got a plan. And they WANNA do to states like Texas what they did Virginia in two thousand and nineteen lip state legislature immediately start passing gun control bill in the name of quote Unquote Commonsense Gun Safety. But these bills have nothing to do with common sense. They have nothing to do with gun safety they're about restricting and infringing on the rights of Law abiding illegal gun owners. You know I find that gun owners. Are Better at responding to bad legislation. Then recognizing the potential danger of a radical before they're in office. And because the trump administration has not attempted to propose radical left-wing legislation that find that sometimes owners get a little complacent I. Hope we don't have to lose an election to realize why this mattered and motivate voters. I'm worried about that too because that was I think a factor in Virginia last year but hopefully, you know listen I mean if if you're if you're unaware of Joe, Biden's gun control plant, go to his own website. and. You can see you know the dangers of a Biden Harris Administration even beyond the potential of packing the Supreme Court of the Anti Gun justices Joe Biden wants to ban AR, fifteen and other so-called assault weapons wants to ban magazines that can hold more than ten round there. You would either have to turn them over to the government for some sort of cash stipend to be named later or you'd have. To pay two hundred dollars per item to register them under the National Firearms Act with the promise You know for me politician that you could keep those going forward I don't I don't happen to not believe that promise I think as soon as the Democrats can ban guns, they will absolutely try to ban these guns no grandfathering in. But even beyond that Michael, vine wants to ban online sales of amy initially. I mean, I. Don't know about you man but I have had very little luck with my local gun store finding common calibers like nine millimeter to three. So most of us are going online right now to see what we can find stock that would be illegal. according to Joe Biden, under his plan, he wants to give a federal grant money to state to set up restrictive and subjective gun licensing laws allowing local authorities to decide who is suitable to own a firearm and exercise their second rights, and he wants to repeal the protect commerce and Arms Zach which would allow junk lawsuits to be filed against farmers, manufacturers, holding them accountable for the actions of criminals. in an attempt to bankrupt the industry I mean, this is really frightening stuff and they're on Biden's website I'm not making any of this stuff up this comes from the candidate himself. Cam Edwards is our test. What do you find when you look at a tiered approach to gun ownership and opposition to gun control? What is the single biggest issue you find motivates gun owners against gun control. What's the lowest hanging fruit that everyone agrees? We don't want that. I think it is a gun ban. I think that's probably the lowest hanging fruit but honestly, you know with gun owners it it. It's hard to separate out these issues because what we really want if it's simply have a right acknowledged and respected. And I don't think that that is the case right now many states across the country. It certainly is not the case I in a lot of courts across the country, which is one of reasons why and then gun owners is so excited about the prospect of maybe conybeare it getting onto the supreme court because she is a judge who does recognize the fundamental nature of the. Right. To and bear arms. She used this as a real right not as a second class right and that really is what we're fighting right now we're fighting for the recognition of something that is contained. The bill of rights is right there for everybody to read. But unfortunately, you've got you know gun control advocates and so many politicians who wanted to ignore the plane tax of the Constitution. No. Such an interesting how this became an issue to divide. I curious to get your perspective on my thesis which is That, the people who are for gun control are people who themselves have never owned gun shotgun been around a gun. They don't understand guns so they fear that which they don't understand. That is a huge portion. Of The gun control movement and and again as you say they, they're not personally invested. In the idea of the Second Amendment they, they don't feel like they miss anything if every gun was banned tomorrow. So it's easy for them to call for these types of proposals One of the things though that I think is kind of interesting Michael is that we're we're starting to see a little bit of a fracturing within the gun control movement. So you've got those old school gun control types like Michael, Bloomberg who WanNa put a bunch of new laws on the books that are going to be enforced by police. And then you've got a lot of younger I won't even necessarily call them gun control advocates call them gun violence prevention supporters because that's how they like define themselves and a lot of these folks there on the left. but they are skeptical of more policing lot of again talking about systemic racism in policing, and then the criminal justice system and they recognize. Okay. Well, if the system is flawed, will putting more laws on the books have to be enforced by the police that's a problem, and so they're now advocating for things that are more community interventions you know violence interrupters, things that are not the traditional gun control measures that are aimed at legal gun owners, and so I, I honestly I mean politics makes strange bedfellows but I think that there are opportunities. For. Collaboration. And cooperation between gun owners and some of these individuals on the left who recognize that you know another gun ban for a magazine. Ban Or even another gun licensing law is simply going to put a lot of people in prison for what amounts to nonviolent offenses where they're creative gun crime with everyone of these gun control laws and there are some folks on the left your recognized well, and especially when you look at the Biden Crime Bill in the ninety s that May. Criminals out of an entire generation of mostly young black men from which we've we've not recovered in. We'll never recover. We don't need to be criminalizing more things we need to be enforcing the good laws. We already have Cam Edward at a time come back and see us he's the editor at bearing arms dot com host of the podcast, forty acres and a full and a great follow on twitter. Thanks and good luck to Miss Info.

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Mason and Ireland (HR 2)

Mason & Ireland

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Mason and Ireland (HR 2)

"The Patrick Beverley, those type players in will they be in will they can they stay in a holding pattern waiting on a decision on Colli Leonard or Jimmy Butler, Kyrie Irving here, and that's that that's going to be the balancing act of this, this office in Los Angeles, is that the one thing you don't wanna do is let this play out to. Let's say July fifth or six and I haven't feeling that this thing that this is not going to be LeBron July one to decision here. These guys are going to take these meetings in which could drag out a little bit here is that he better not make you better, make sure that you don't lose out on some of these other free. If the goal is that you are going to split up the money, and I think, and I think that's going to be the probably the most important part of this process here. How much how fast do you expect guys to come off the war? It's like the, the spending habits of teams this year. Bobby you're going to have a huge influence on. What the Lakers come out with at the end of all of it is it going to be twenty sixteen. Or is it going to be more like last year? The are the summer previous, I don't think we'll ever see summer of sixteen and I think we'll see we'll see big numbers. But the summer sixteen was like the four year contract. Right. I mean, we saw like, whoa, dang and mild off, behind me and beyond Boho, guys like that, I think outside of the, the listeners and maybe players like going on bogdonovich or even Marcus Morris here, Malcolm brogden, I think we're gonna see one two year contract. I think that's kind of the Dana age that we're in right now is that teams will give I think teams will be more teams through to your contract base on the free agent class next year a strong, but I would be stunned as an offensive so long that we see, like Danny green at a four year fifty. Dollar contract year. I so I think it's more of a two year contract, what is the kyri dynamic here? I mean, there there has been word that obviously Brooklyn wants some, but they won them in the event that K D goes there. What happens if Katie states, Golden State, or goes to the Knicks? Why guys like when you do these free agent meetings, especially when you're doing, it was an all star or an Olympia player like kyri like the intent is always that you were, you know, your basic, you know, you're not going to be the one that turns that player. Right. So, right. What happens if they meet with kyri and kyri wants to come and Brooklyn says you all, you know what, you know, katie's come? And we're just gonna stick with the Angelo here. So I think I think just kind of canvas in the league that they're pretty invested in kyri, even if it's made me potentially without without Katie here. So that makes the angel- probably in play. But yeah, I mean, as I said, you know, it's like when you meet with these guys seem tent is, is that you're going to sign them if they wanna come here. And so let's if collides back in Toronto chirons up in Brooklyn. That's the Angelo. And what's like if Russell really is alive play. What else can they get with? What's leftover why I think it's going to be important with the Angeles numbers. Right. I don't think he's max player at twenty seven million dollars. I'd probably take them at twenty two twenty two maybe just a little bit more. I think it's I think it's a matter of what who else is out there kind of bidding. So if you if you let we take the conservative number, and we put him at twenty then you're left with twelve so that, probably gets you Danny green if you do without without without the Angelo and you're thirty two that probably gets you Patrick favorably. If you want thirteen probably gets you Danny green at twelve seven million left in a room to go out and get another player that four eight exception. So you could see you start to see the roster. You know, start to shape up, and we talked about it all morning, years, that when you put it on a board like done. It's like it, it looks nice when you had eighty and LeBron Kuzina, and then you start putting all the pieces around it. I mean, that is would be the favourite, you know, even if you do not get quite that would be the favourite to come out of, you know, certainly out of the west. The other thing I think is interesting people talking about how you're gonna fill out the roster around it. When you look at these sort of ring chasing veteran minimum type guys Bobby, and we're talking to Bobby marks, ESPN basketball analyst, how like the list of guys who have actually passed up real money is fairly short. David west did it for the warriors, you know. And, and that's basically it are there, a lot of guys who think would give up real money to come play for the Lakers. Or are we really talking about JR Smith? Carmelo anthony. Guys like that. Well. Well. We, we did an exercise where we're going to have something come out tomorrow with salary ranges for each guy for every three eight. And when you when you do it's like you think, like we'll like there's a lot of guys that look like you're gonna make a lot of money. And just you know, they probably won't. So guys that you think the Austin rivers they, you think is afford a six million dollar guy. Could be a minimum guy. You're certainly the we, we kind of know like Tyson Chandler, the JR Smith the Jared nutley's more of those veteran guys that are probably looking to win a championship or those are the guys that will be play. But I think I think if you know, Houston has proved it that you can go out and get minimum guys if it's Gerald green and build out that back into the roster. I don't I think if you gotta make sure that you have a right balance there, that it's not just, you know, it just not loaded with veterans as far as you know, just to have a good locker room presence that he's gotta play. These guys have got to contribute, because, you know, this is going to be as you know, it's an. You know it's an eighty two game sprint here Scott, especially if Colli LeBron for AD that, you know, you're going to have to manage these guys minutes. If. Given what happened in the last twenty four hours with the third team being involved in the salaries being moved to marry Jones and Isaac Bonga and Mogre. How much credit does rob Pelinka deserve forgetting the Lakers into this position. A lot. I said, you know, this morning, I when I did the noon sports center, I think, you know, we basically he was opinion for about three weeks. Right. When we probably agree, I met him in front office, and frankly, long, frankly, longer longer than that Bobby for since since magic step down. He really has gone through the ringer. Yeah. And that's why I think it was important for me to get out on national TV or get on national radio yesterday and be like, you know, like. I get it. You know, we've, we've heard about it read about it. I'm sure some of it is justified you guys are there as far as maybe some of the things that have happened there. But you know you gotta look forward. And then and you gotta give people credit when they get one, credit stew, right? Like yummy, keys, you, you get you get LeBron last year you did not have you not have a great year yet injuries. And we, you know, we can fault the signings and stuff. But you get Davis two weeks ago top by player. And now you get, you know the ability to go out and get a main guy, or divided up with thirty two million dollars that you're Marriott Jones, signing, which nobody talked about right when Jamaica own sign. It was like, basically, we thought this guy was he's going to be in summer league. That was that was a smart brilliant move by them. Because if they had not added that extra year, there would have been no trade yesterday because they can add him in there, and then, you know, Mendez contracts and make money work. That's the reason why that deal got done. So I. I think I think rob in the front office there as much as you know, people have dragged them through the mud for forever. You know, for the last, what six months or stages of a lot of credit, you know, they really do and, you know, and I'm gonna make it known that uses our credit, so now we just gotta see how they fill out that, you know, the rest of this rust. Hey, Bobby, thank you very much for coming on. We appreciate all the great information and, and you're always there for us. Thank you. Thank you. All right. There's Bobby marks ESPN front office insider, suggesting that he's, he's more likely that they're going to slice and dice writing, and they're gonna land deal co Weiss skeptical, correct. And he still believes that the nets are in on kyri. Even if Katie doesn't go with him. Yes. That's a huge deal, like if they're really have cold feet on that. And there are reasons to believe that Kyrie Irving, as the number one guy, he can't be the news one championship team on a young team. We saw what happened in Boston last year was not a good deal. And by the way, Kyrie signs with Brooklyn that immediately, springs, Dangelo Russell. They would have to pretty mount St. Angelo. They probably would because you're not gonna sign both there's already have Spencer, Dinwiddie you already of these other guys. There's no reason to pay both of them. See I'm okay if it's the Angelo Russell, plus yeah, I'm, I'm great with. I think Dangelo Russell is a perfect fit with these guys twenty three years old. Can score in the back court can move the ball, pretty well handled the ball when the Browns getting there, he's some people just don't think he's that good. Obviously made an all star team made a lot of improvements this year numbers, don't like de ngelo the. Yeah, the. Why do the analytic sound like Ivan into that? Cushy not a good finisher. Doesn't get to the free throw line very much. He's, he's a much better score than Lonzo. Yup. But he has some of the same problems in the sense that he doesn't get the free throw line and he doesn't finish at the rim. Very well. All right. Coming up for you. We are live from bar, Louie, and Donnie will let you know that team USA has a one nothing lead on France. I can't quite see that the fifty seven th minute fifty. I fifty minute there you have it. If somebody came out with fifty once fifty-one heard that, from the crowd somewhere to drinking one still another shot. Thank you for that. Oh, sorry. Very smooth. As you live. All right. We'll be right back live for bar Louie and daddy. Yeah. Do you feel it in your bones that by Leonard is coming to the Lakers? I do you do do not Ireland where live from bar, Louie in Downey, and there was a guy where's, where's clipper fan guy? In fact, the one clipper fan he got a Mason in Ireland t shirts so he can hold it up in front of his clippers jersey. We can we Stein LA village second what like every clipper fan on the planet. Wait don't say every all three all nine of them and more cells, they're all just gonna walk into the ocean. If all the way can you imagine just gonna collectively just walk into the ocean and drown themselves because they've done everything? Right. They'll look at our conversation. We've got the debate all the right. Trim berry organiz which we're very organized Steve ball. Worth forty six billion dollars. We did in the Lakers have just been doing all the end they just swoop in and take Arkansas. Can you imagine such a little brother singer, Laker? Going to be delightfully insufferable towards clipper fans with if this should. Brian, and he's a little bit older than you right here for it. I'm here to watch the whole thing happened. I'm just saying. It's going to be great. Do you ever have that with your brother and his older? Right. Is is that little brother syndrome with him where you like? Oh, no. It's everything better. You think you're better at stumbling him. His I always requesting him to fill in for done clearly, not very strong. Not a four second trying to Narco could he didn't Marco the ideal journal the idea that they lined everything up, and they don't get in the Lakers. Still like, but the perception screwed up everything for the last like year. It's a tire fire in El Segundo. The puzzle is burning down and they still get AD and Kawhi clipper fans, we'll just walk into the ocean and drown them starting to wonder though. Aside from magic suddenly stepping down has the grease fire been exaggerated. No. I don't think so. I think they've had here's the thing we don't really know what's going on inside their if you believe like if you believe the people who report these things. Yeah, it's been bad the last like they didn't handle the trade deadline. Well, going back to they didn't. But that was magic. It was. But it's all the same. Post magic. Post magic everything get exaggerated. I would I would say, I don't think so. But I also did a did mad at everybody go over the top. I will say the criticism that rob never knew the rules of the salary cap was done. He knew he knows the rules that kind of stuff, did they negotiate properly pencil, you ask most people say, no. But the point is they fixed it, it doesn't matter if they made mistakes, and we are in a results oriented business, and he got mad salt if they finish this summer with three superstars three of the top eight players seven players in the NBA. It doesn't matter if they did everything wrong up to this point because they got to the place where they're going to go into title. That's what matters. I just wonder if and by the way, I was part of this, we weren't really, really hard on this for a couple of months and, and honestly, I mean I. Sort of turned around on my criticism when they traded for Anthony Davis because I thought they went from no chance at a championship two favorites for the champion. Results oriented. I don't care how they got there as long as they got there. And, and I think everybody went over the top in their criticism. And by the way, that includes me during that two months of post magic period, but I'm not sure how over the top you were because it was really bad. The here's the thing it doesn't matter like a pro that exists where I say, rob Pelinka is a know it all screw up bright. And you kind of over the top and a little time trying to walk that back. I've noticed, but that's okay. Walked back lot. You weren't you weren't but not necessarily like you weren't necessarily wrong about how things were going and it because they fixed it but you didn't know how things were going. And that's why you were wrong because the Lakers have not said anything for six months. So you have to make your own decisions about what is actually happening in that on reporting of base, you're not wrong because you're going by what people are saying. So, right. I'm actually inside all of that, right. Every bit of reporting and every bit of everything coming from not just the SPN media. But everybody else was all wrong. No, it doesn't hit us wrong. But saying that it's also Br and right. By the way. Exaggerate, it maybe my, my positions this and it's been very consistent. Full-time the, the hardest thing for the Lakers to do is the management stuff. It's once you have three superstars keeping them from killing each other. It's filling out the rest of the roster. It's dealing with Rich Paul and clutch, and making sure that, that all stays on the rails and use right. Yes to clutch when need to and know when you have to the hard part isn't getting LeBron, right? But they've done right so far. But the those to me are not the really hard things the heart. It's not Rich Paul kicked down the door and left, Anthony Davis bay on the doorstep and said, but David Griffin enough to make it done. That's. They get credit for making the trade. It doesn't mean the trade is bad. It just means. That's not the hard part about being the GM of the Lakers. And so it's just I'm waiting. It's just like LeBron LeBron was basically handed to the Lakers. We don't don't, don't screw don't give them a reason saying Davis was handed to the Lakers by SCO it up. Remember last year? Salvador, he got Brian Windhorst was on. I think the jump they did a late version of the jump. And Brian Windhorst said they're meeting right now, and all magic has to do is not occur it up. But what you like the stuff that where there's a preoccupation with how bad the Lakers front off? This is there's also going to be a preoccupation with good. They'll like if you wanna hang on something that, like is impressive. Go back to what Bobby Marx was talking about, don't focus on the fact that they traded for Anthony Davis, because most of us could have done that just clip differing look at the fact that they signed Jones in, you take care of those little details that allow some they didn't they made a trade. I'd have to look it up wrote about this for the athletic at the beginning of the season. Last year when they did it was something similar to that, where they made a deal with had some little wrinkle in it, that was beneficial to them, and I forget, what was cap space or whatever it might have been that was. Oh, okay. That's detail, oriented front office. Right. Those are the things that will show you whether or not rob Pelinka's really good at his job. But then they went, you know where they haven't proven anything. Meghan repeat again. The last gold through tournament. Yeah. Four four the team USA now leads France two nil. And Megan repeal has scored for a second time today. Sixty fifth minute, sixty fifth minute many people believe experts believe that this game may be for the championship that France is the best team that is not named team USA in this World Cup field. So team USA a gigantic on the verge of a gigantic win over France, as they lead, the French to nil in the sixty fifth minute. We will be right back more live from bar. Louie in Downey three agency is on it starts on Sunday. By the way, the Mingo starts three o'clock. Listen. Presented by Buffalo Wild Wings in Ireland. ESPN. LA. ESPN LA basin. Ireland Bryant candidates, these here we are live from bar Louie in Downey, and, of course, we are readying ourselves for free agency, which starts ROY Hawaii, Leonard. That's right, Leonard day. Finally, apple time, apple time. We've explained the apple time if you missed it, this is what makes a great is. He never talked. So he's this empty vessel that we can all fill with whatever stories. So a comedian a couple of weeks. So comedian a couple of weeks ago, sent out this brilliant, parody of like the oral history of Leonard, with the Spurs, you know, great style, like we all do for sports or whatever. And he tells the story about how the team went out to dinner and they all were sitting down and pop is famous for taking the team out and all these things in the team sits down and Leonard instead of ordering pulls out a dozen red apples in a bag and he puts them on his plate. And so you can order, and he says, no, apple time apple time. Just takes out the apples and starts eating them with a knife in fort now. We have no idea if that's true. It's completely. Untrue, better be century. It was one hundred one hundred percent Mehta, but the yes because co I never speaks, you can kind of believe it apple time. Apple time such an odd, dude. Yeah. Such an odd. Do nobody else on the league. I heard. He still shares a place with his mom. I think. There's all these. No, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure all this other stuff is like stuff. That is so quiet. This is what we're seeing though is the Lakers delay. Cours inquire, very similar in that we don't know what the Lakers are doing only. Here's reports right? We don't know allies doing all we hear is reports, so they're basically, the same fit very well together. What could induce qui- he is going to want to come here and be confident that he is going to be able to have the same load management experience that he had in Toronto. Yes. So why don't we hire Alex McKechnie back? Seriously? Why not because jury zero percent chance Toronto will allow that do you think Alex McKechnie is like under a long arm contract would have if he's under contract? There's no organization on the planet who will be given permission to go talk. Oh, what about we would have to spend it, send in special ops? What about wheels? But have to go to. Nike. They own the claw trademarked. Why don't we go to Nike and find a way. Atika give up the claw allow him that the claw. If he comes back to the Lakers. It's the start and end Alex macaque. Yes. Well, hold the biggest who's the biggest influence at Nike right now. Lebron? Yeah. Of course, he is, is right? And now LeBron is on the Lakers who can get claw logo form. Lebron already game pitch gave up twenty three days to give up the Claude Jerry giving guy, but see, like the Lakers, the Lakers can't sell Hawaii, on their medical staff in the same Toronto can only because not because they're not good only because he doesn't know them Judy Seto coming all that last part of its job right now. She's now out in charge. Yes. So. Oh. You got for nothing. Bar. Louie team USA did score. But it looks like there's an off size air replay video replay VR. His or they already back now, sticking by her call. Yeah. I think those. Yeah, no, no score rather US, but still a to nothing lead over Fran Lebowitz just get back to, like, what the Lakers can say is unlike inter like Toronto, you're the only superstar there. There are other good players, but you're the only superstar in Los Angeles. Your load management's gonna come with Anthony Davis and LeBron James. It can do a lot of heavy lifting game in and game out. None of the three of you are going to have to play more than sixty five games. None of the three of you are going to have to carry a team from month and a half everyone can stay healthy. That's the load management body preservation thing, and then you sell them on your medical staff, and your sports sports science and all that, just talk this in the Orlando. Magic preparing a four year offer believed to be an excess of ninety million to all star center Nikola boot Cevic in hearts of completing a deal shortly after Sunday's opening bell in free agency threat move. Smart move for them is a very smart move. That's Mark Stein. Don't, don't let me go anywhere else who's four years night. You're not going to be better. No, I looked great deal before the trade, I thought which was kind of a sneaky Ida too, 'cause like a good pick and roll partner for, for Louise Nikola Yokich. He's a good shoot. Yeah. Yeah. Good player. Just not he's that's the kind of guy can hit the three. Yeah. With regularity. You wanna talk about just annihilated the Lakers last year. Oh, yeah. Yeah. DJ Augustine the Nyland last too long list. Last year. People who've annihilated the Lakers. We got an eye. And that's a good reason goes on. Jayjay Berea, by the way to that's not always the best measurement. He'd be a minimum deal, right? JJ. Yeah. Only if not if he gets to play against the Lakers. He's a max guy against Ricky Rubio though, if you wanna go phone. Points a game because longer the league shoot against and it's the lake Dave mcmanamon reporting after the Lakers finished summer league practice today. Macabre n-. Kyle Kuzma the only two Lakers currently under contract with the team are going through drills together with Frank Vogel. And rob Pelinka observing from the sidelines. So a very quiet practice. A two-man practice. For the Lakers today. I mean you don't wanna we've only got to don't wanna add too much, when you think about the note we only have two guys on the roster. That is it. Well Jonathan Williams. Alice caruso. Yeah. Harder. They extended offers, but they're not part of the team true. If John Williams accepts then he's a two way player. Correct. Look, here's practices. Just LeBron's crew the reality of getting no each other. Very well is if they signed Kurai, they believe they're going to be running a promotion, like through jersey. Mike's or something where if you go in there and buy sandwich. You get to be the sixth man at like. I don't believe it's going to be that bad. Is it doesn't matter like you can run out just about anybody in this restaurant right now for fifteen minutes night, we've got tears, and right? And they'll still win because you have Leonard and Davis and LeBron James, your eighth guy is not necessarily that important on a day-to-day basis, we're going to walk into Chevron and they're gonna give us by one. Get one free tickets like pretty tickets. Yeah. No. That is to the clippers. Do they do that? Yeah. They actually walk around and say here if you buy a ticket, we'll give you buy a movie ticket, and get the clippers remember this happens where they'll be giving away all the clippers tickets all the clippers fans will be in the ocean. Yeah. Look at poor clipper. One guy, four round. In the wash. Tide is coming out argue leading you into the ocean off clap. All right. Team USA's up to kneel over France. Right now, it is the seventy ninth minute seventy nine th minute, and we've got more free agency talk coming up next for you. Plus fasttrack happens live in ten minutes. Basin Ireland Brian's in for John ESPN LA Mason in Ireland show. We are at bar. Louie Steve Mason, taking photographs with the people with its agents special. These are Leonard's coming time for another shot. Isn't it time for no show? Go. Someone. We do this thing. A wide. Join ESPN just yelling. Coming. Join SPLA sprint the center. Borrow to win baseball tickets any game in a lane ESPN award show tickets visit the sprint store, eleven nine seven three foothill boulevard and Rancho Cucamonga from noon to, to visit the ESPN, LA Facebook page. For more details, somebody just made a point there's gonna Jonathan Watson. Okay. I know. Everywhere tweets this all the time. To yoyo. He's like a producer for our shows. He really is. Where do we think we might content? We get tweets from Jonathan Watson. It's like he retweets tweets all the good stuff and we start running with it. He just made a good point. I'm guessing that Magic Johnson is not going to be in a meeting with Weiland Stephen Hayes, said magic still deeply involved, so stuff, you think so shadow. GM. Ludi this past magic at this point. It just as the lack of self awareness in all of this is amazing. It really is. I'm so glad he's back on Twitter like we're better. We are much better off as society with magic not running basketball, operations for the Lakers and being active on Twitter, his tweet while while while what a trade and big move by Jean. Rob declare thirty two million cap space. This move puts the Lakers play for all of the free agents can't wait until Sunday. It's going to be exciting. But there's no question that there's a if you listen to genie on the red carpet of the NBA awards. She said she hasn't spoken to magic since he resigned. She's sticking with her guy. Like one of the things that I think we, we underestimate France court. Yeah, France, Gordon team USA to one. Are they calling the hand call that what she supposed to do? Well, I mean technically hits her hand. Right. But or arm which is part of the three and a half feet away. What do you do? Kim move your arm out of the way that fast. So the team USA's up to one, you're Mr. law and order over there handball Rory's of the game, I have very ruled oriented, but my question is given the fact that magic just absolutely torched. The organization and specifically, rob Pelinka is magic still in a meeting with Kawhi Leonard. Setpiece for France. Did not score. They're looking for a Phalle inside the box to. Yeah. They were there. They were there. I like I like to when they were up to Neil. Yeah. Heterogenous at a like that might have been a penalty right there. Dreaming for the France, which is screaming in French shouldn't count. So do you have magic in the meeting? That's the question. No, yes. There's no way of magic in the meeting zero. No. Now here's a better question because it's confusing. Do you have work there anymore? Do you have Kobe in the meeting? Okay. You have you wanna legend Kobe being there? But you don't wanna legend in magic being their magic doesn't work for the T. Toby Bryant want either one of America. I said, no, I think I want LeBron James, and you want Anthony Davis. They're still don't want to legend like Kobe Bryant in what is Kobe do that LeBron all you around put them all he's got written. He's got an enormous present. You don't want to sell the brand from before you want to sell what they are. Now, you wanna sell winning now, aren't you selling everything that Koby has done oh, based on his experience, as a lake because what Kobe has done animation? Studio Koby can talk to collide Leonard if he wants, I think who is totally interested in animation studio. What do you think the career expands beyond just basketball, if you're like, I think it's a mistake for the Lakers to focus too much on selling, what's been. What are you selling in this, in this meeting anyway, with that he doesn't already know? I mean you're not selling. Another thing. I mean what, what really? The need for Kobe. Be there even less. Okay. Fine. Doesn't matter who's there. But what are you actually selling meeting, because it really doesn't matter. He wears we'll what you're selling gotta know. He knows the players here. It's, it's, it's what really doesn't wanna formality Harris, the meeting with Jeanie Buss that part doesn't matter. It's gonna sit down with with ADD and LeBron. Tell me how this gonna work on the floor. One of how much of I have to give up. I'm gonna do. I become Chris Bosh do. I've, that's what they care. But the other thing is that the other thing is rap linka personal g buses, obviously, the rob Pelinka Barron, Trump's there, maybe. Seto is there. Once a year from his there. But the important stuff comes from AD, and LeBron about, how is this going to work on the floor? How what kind of how you gonna move the ball? How is this going to play out? That's what matters. It doesn't Coby. Coby can talk to quiet. Tell them what it's like to be leading. You don't have to sell on the Lakers have had great years, and one chair, he knows that already he but that doesn't five titles. Kobe won do nothing for colitis think Kobe has a presence. Kobe has a presence over the organization doesn't mean he needs to be in the meeting. I brian. So you're in the meeting. What are you, actually? What are your meeting look like? What does your layer meeting if I'm Leonard? Yes. Why all I care. All I care about. And honestly, I think all cares about is what it's gonna look like really does care about the Basque. His he's not been shown to care about anything but the basketball it's gonna have zero questions for Tim Harris, the meetings, fine. You might have a few questions for Frank Vogel. But really, what matters is what is LeBron good ado, in terms of how he gives of himself gives of the offense gives of the focus of things, and what is this gonna look like not just this year, but over two or three years? That's what matter. And there's this big. Passing of the torch idea that I think can be sold. Sure. The I'm in my seventeenth season. I'm going to be thirty five years old. This is going to be your team this your team. This is going to be a dis hand. This is where having one two finals MVP's having just taken Toronto to unexpected title. And you argue about the injuries or whatever, but Leonard was the best player in the league certainly throughout the playoffs, and he brought Toronto championship after winning another championship in a finals with San Antonio. He can he actually can deflect all that criticism that came to Kevin Durant for joining a super team. Here's the thing, I think choir knows what is going to do. I think the meetings are just ceremonial. I don't think he's going to hear anything in meeting that he doesn't already know Ron has already been recruiting knows what it is. Lebron is already being the Shirley for show. Yeah. Right ceremony. He hasn't talked to Lou Williams. Eight mantras hair to everybody. Don't give me to say no, you sit down in front of people. You think you have your mind made up, you wanna walk into the room and you, you, you, you meet people, and you don't want to be like, oh my God. Personnel guys awful right? I don't know how much contact Kawais had with Leonard. I don't know much contact wise with Lawrence Frank in, in. With the clippers right you go. And you meet these people, you're going to go work for your sign off excuse me. The next four years, career, you wanna meet these people, but really, if you have your, the idea of what you want your, you want to make sure you don't have good reason to say, no, right? That was the meeting with LeBron. Don't screw it up. It's Brian reason to say no right to their credit. Magic, rob. They didn't. They, they opened the run, by the way that meeting was supposedly just match. Yeah. But that's not the rob link was part of opening the runway right setting the conditions for LeBron. I'm comfortable coming here. They didn't sell the brand the lacy. I'm of the belief that all these guys know in the meetings are all ceremonial. Nice Bating's is nice little tour. Why doesn't quite come out at three o'clock on Sunday and say, here's my gone. So you're saying that he knows then. I think he knows. I think he knows sure. I don't think the Lakers. No. Okay. So it's the opposite of what I think, co I knows don't think the Lakers, have any sort of guaranteed. The Kawai is going to be the guy. I think it's pretty clear that if anybody says they know quite Leonard is doing their line Kawai knows. Yeah. He knows for sure. What he's doing already. I think Kyrie knows privately K D. No, it's LeBron, your LeBron James is who's gonna sell so to speak, and whether it's corre- whether it's already been recruiting. Right. But it's in the room closing the deal or if it's been closed already the only voice, it really matters. Here is LeBron. Yeah. I agree to add Koby to that distracts from what's important. It's not Kobe's team anymore. It isn't it's. Lebron's team. And so the Braun has to be the one. And if you put somebody else in that room, who has the, the voice, and the, the, the presence, and the meaning of Kobe, Brian, it's going to detract from what LeBron to do. Hi. Coming up next. We'll keep you updated on team USA up to one over France right now. What is that? The ninety four th minute ninety four th minute ninety third minute. And there was five minutes of extra time, it looks like so. Yeah. So it's winding down two minutes away from team USA advancing beating France. And we got fasttrack coming up next for you. Mason, Ireland live from bar Louie Downey, Mason, Ireland. ESPN LA.

Lakers LeBron LeBron Colli Leonard France LeBron James Anthony Davis Toronto rob Pelinka USA ESPN USA Ireland Kobe clippers Louie Brian Windhorst LeBron Kuzina LA Bobby
167: Evolution and Contextual Behavioral Science

The Psychology Podcast

1:04:06 hr | 1 year ago

167: Evolution and Contextual Behavioral Science

"Welcome to the psychology podcast, where we give you insights into the mind brain behavior and creativity. I'm Dr Scott Barry Kaufman, and in each episode. I have a conversation with guest, he will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself others, and the world live in hopefully will also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. Today. It's a great honor to have David phone Wilson and Stephen Hayes on the podcast. David swollen Wilson is president of the evolution institute and assuming distinguished professor of biology. And anthr- apology at Binghamton university swollen Wilson pies evolutionary theory to all aspects of humanity. In addition to the biological world, his books include Darwin's cathedral evolution for everyone, the neighborhood project and does out truism exist. Steven Hayes is foundation professor in the department of psychology at the university of Nevada. Reno and author of forty four books over six hundred scientific articles, his Kerr's focused on an analysis of the nature of human language and cognition and the application of this to the understanding and alleviation of human suffering, and the promotion of human prosperity, he's has received several wards including the impact of science on application award from the society for the advancement of behavior analysis and the lifetime achievement award from the association for behavioral and cognitive therapies. ABC t for short together. The edited the recent book evolution and contextual behavioral science and integrated framework for understanding predicting and fooling human behavior. David, and Stephen would agree honor to have you both on the podcast today. Thank you very much. That's fun to be here. Looking forward to it. Yeah. I'm very much looking forward to going to definitely one of the longest intros I've ever done in this podcast to you and your both like legendary and have a long bio, teach of you. But I think it does put into context a little bit. You're both of your unique flavor, so to speak. And then it'll be really cool to talk today about how you both got together and decided to do this great grand synthesis and integration of different things. So along those lines, let me start by could each of you kind of talk a little bit about your own perspective, light, that you primarily focused on your career. We could start with Steve outage. I. Okay. Well, I'm a you know, have background in baby. Now, says some clinical psychologist, basic work animal work, even better from that was this kind of radical, functionalism in context, and in kind of a multidimensional way wrote about evolutionary topics actually with some regularity. But now in hindsight, much Fistican, I kind of have in my career tried to fill what I saw holes in the behavioral tradition in the two biggest holes were, you really have to do with language in Cagney, something different is happening that we're doing right now, compared to what the bird is doing outside the window? Could just compare it over two hundred years, five hundred thousand years. It's very, very obvious that there's something in language in cognition, that is perhaps not unique but is leased so characteristically requires a special analysis and the other is one that's frustrating for the. In wing, which is a tried to do it and failed of trying to find a way to put a selection within the lifetime of the individual both by drag continues is reinforcement beginning to really thank. Also by contingencies of meaning the meaning systems that are afforded by a symbolic learning to put that into the larger Fabrica evolutionary thought, and so our book is titled contextual. Aero science, not so much to mean a Pacific group. But more the behavioral, scientists think in this functional, contextual multi dimensional longitudinal selective way, and I was just been overjoyed to over the last ten years, or so it's been awhile David hasn't been to defined David as a colleague somebody who's, you know, really committed to exploring that unexplored terrain. Gary of the interface between the traditional ever luminary thinking as embraces and extended synthesis. And behavioral science wing that has been interested in that, that needed a lot of education and still does in the larger field of visionary thought seeing that wing as a as a partner great. And then what is science, and it's interesting called science instead, like evolutionary. Psychology is our difference between the two is one a larger umbrella. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. I believe science covers everything living Sassi's. I was trying to the volition biologist started are working with non humans, and then add humans demise I got my PHD in nineteen seventy five, which is the same year that the other Wilson had Renault Wilson, publish socio biology. And of course, the idea that you can have a single theory that applies to all social Stacy's including humans was. What he introduced, and which was outrageous at the time created so much controversy. But just getting might be then that was just an exciting prospect. So you could call neither I post sociology generation, and as I matured, as a scientist, I thought more and more about humans, and meaning systems in language in a lot of it was centered on multilevel selection, which is what I'm best known for the idea that patients can evolve at the group level or even the ecosystem level. If special conditions are, are men ad, and so the idea that Lucien needs to expand the on the biological sciences to include all things human includes psychology, plus award includes all the human related disciplines when I landed at Binghamton university, I created the first campus wide studies program called egos, and then after building. On campus. I thought gosh, let's use our community as like a field site, as an volition or ecologist would understand the term, and I was especially interested in studying altruism, impress geology, and the context of everyday life. So I boldly announced Binghamton neighborhood project started to do this kind of work. I remember them. Now soon enough. I remember I was there I was there in the audience when you now instead at nips two thousand six yeah. There you go. Yeah. And with quite a bit of hubris and soon enough, I wouldn't discovered by people who were already doing this kind of word in the applied sciences and especially Tony big one who is a prevention scientists and prevention science. It's turned on people occurred. But it is one of the contextual behavioral sciences and make a long story short. It was Tony who introduced me to Steve, and then we started to work together, and I begin to see their web Tony was doing. A population level and what Steve was doing largely at an individual level, but also extending into groups and a third person Dennis Embry less doing in an entrepreneurial way he's a scientific entrepreneur was applied, cultural evolution. I see these guys are really good at actually making positive change happen in the real world at a variety of scale. So there were doing basically, what I aspire to do. And yet our respective disciplines, we're all different from each other, and different from Evelyn, or psychology, we can segue now to psychology and actually just signal, and we can spend more time on during this interview a very complicated. And in retrospect, crazy history. Condemn psychology in which behavior as I head of was dominant as the most scientific approach to psychology. But then what is deposed by this ocal Condit revolution? And then it will listeners psychology emerged as a critique of the cognitive revolution. The idea that the mind is not pro computer but many special purpose computers, massive on gilardi and psychology actually both cognitive psychology and psychology rejecting behavior as part of the so called standard social science model is something that was somehow fundamentally rar and hearing. I am an illusionist working with David Hayes was part of the Canarian tradition. Although he's also gone beyond it. And so, we have profound lack of. Gratien and behavior, say it Solta -scribed evolutionary psychology playing a role in the lack of integration. So these are some of the things that we need to discuss what our book represents, I think the way out there incubators. It's evolutionary psychology done right on, I said, actually does Justice to the module, already concept, does Justice to it. But also does Justice to the immense and open ended aspects of human nature that the individual level the individual's capacity for ended change and also the cultural capacity for ended change. If you if you can't acknowledge that then you don't understand our Spacey's. I like that Steve, you said that Skinner thought himself as psychologists is that, right? He did a for some time in the last sentence, he wrote the night before he died, which was to finish an article coming out of an award run for the American psychological such action. Said that he predicted that variation selection would be important to the future applied work in his area. And it wasn't sure that they'd be called psychologists, that he was sure that loosened is important in any dies the next morning, and it's kind of a symbolic expression of what he was trying to do. But also the frustration of the inability to make that happen because it isn't even just that it wasn't picked up. The, the behavioral folks were outright rejected, and this link between contingencies reinforcement than a cultural evolution on the one hand and genetic of listener on the other was outright rejected and really even laughed at as a loose metaphor that had nothing to do with how their Asian selection, actually worked in. He's other dimensions and gives the light of that is multidimensional now in a multi level thinking, and when you when you add those back in, and then you say will him. You know where these cultural variations come from had to start somewhere and, you know, they start often you can see it in places eventually look at this particular animal did this particular thing, then, through social learning processes to protect the troop, and I have this visionary thing, and then you start seeing within look what happens. I mean, the just the Japanese snow, monkeys so called the have been followed now for many decades. You know, the fact that they're out there washing their potatoes in the first in the streams, but then actually in the ocean salting there. Now, they're starting to catch fish, and they're actually changing, you know, their diet, which is changing some of their, you know, group practices around things I've made ING choice. And it's like you know, you see right in front of you the kind of, you know, the extended version of the moths changing coloring when the. When coal is no burned in in England at cetera. You ever Lucien has fast enough that you can see that you have to account for variation selection than lifetime, vigil night, yet, in EPA genetic processes in other things like that? And we're now able to do some of these things literally in minutes and you can sit somebody down for fifteen minutes. Keep track of how many other genes reliably turned on or off. Nice little piece of fifteen minutes. Meditation affecting something three percent of your, your genes, in a reliable way how long or doing the network. But, you know that the cells are systems that have just organize to turn environment Baber into biology, so whereas environment in behavior. Not just population biology in some of these things, but in the grit grain in psychology, and so I- tip my hat to psychologists in the sense of insisting that the most important theory, all life sciences be given adequate attention due way inside psychology, that's the right move. And I think that can be forgiven for not knowing how to do that. And kind of taking the obvious step forward say, well, it just happened in the paleolithic period, for example, that might have set up to do this, or that that's important. It's actually doesn't get wiped away and some of them more integrative ideas as massive nudge. Alaron. I still have a role. There's no pieces where that's true. But we get to as we said it in the book, you know, everyone was wrong, and now it's time for us all to work together. And I'm part of what I'm said of stunned by is how much needs to be done, and with all respect my hat far more prestigious area of the two that are coming together. Evolutionary theory itself, needs to really take a step back, and then another run up the hill, because even people were promoting extended. Evolutionary, synthesis will still leave variation selection within the lifetime, the individual off the table, and you just can't do it. You cannot do it in credit coherent account. It's hard to do, but the other part is you can't do and then still have an applied discipline and Mary, a science needs to be applied discipline in part, it doesn't make sense to develop these high-precision high school principals leave him lying on the floor. So this partnership is not. Just about, you know, it being recognized finally in away, this very firm about the importance of behavioral science to the larger picture. It's also what then happens synergistically, when you bring these islands, the academic archipelago together in that turns out that they change each other's thinking, mutually in, and we're worst part of that roller coaster ride were David Nyerere and not just us as much larger group are, you know, walking down this yellow brick road. We're finding all kinds of interesting things there, the I think, are going to have a profound impact on on field as fade out on a much larger group of colleagues on DVD when responding to that. Yeah, let me just Abdur course Stephen. Hi, talk aloud in where I really on the same page. So there's nothing to disagree with their own things to elaborate upon and a sense of history academic history. I think is very important. Run thing that happened to evolutionary opposite became highly gene Centric during the twentieth century as the only kind of inheritances genetic inheritance now that's being versed. We have great books such as inclusion for dimensions by in. Deblanc in lamb is an iconic book for basic going back to basics and defining volition in terms of heredity, just jeans. This is known as the extended visionary, synthesis. And then a metaphor not a metaphor. But at analogy that the season is stress, which I think, is normally helpful for integrating evolutionary psychology and behavior is is the immune system. Now, the immune system is something we understand very well. And said to have an adaptive and an innate component the innate component is densely modular. Rian Herod it. And it does not change during our lifetime. It is something that involved by genetic evolution in his triggered by environmental circumstances. Just as the evolutionary psychologists to point out the adapted component of the immune system is I really Sharon, that's the ability of antibodies to bury for those successfully behind antigens do. Ramped up. So that's never Lucien process that takes place during the lifetime of the organism. It is also densely modular at the mechanisms it's not by happy accident that there's a hundred million different antibodies and mechanisms promote the ones that are tuned to the whole thing, the densely modular but also amazingly open-ended. Why can't we say the same thing about the human behavioral system, and human behavioral says because it offends me when you say that? That's why I don't think how dare you. Reduce me to to, to adoption. Doc shin when, you know joking, you know own. Yes, yes, I do. Yes, I do, and I also think that it's persuasive to make that comparison. So there are some additions to just was saying, I think that the evolution psychology dun-rite acknowledges both in Natan adaptive component. And that's the Gration that we need the tween evolutionary psychology. And this Canarian wing the Steve mentioned Skinner dying words, but you don't have to wait that long. He wrote an iconic, paper, a nineteen eighty one title selection by consequences other, Shan science magazine might be best known work and is just as clear as a bell, anyone who just the abstract that paper is that he was more or less envisioning. What today we think of as cultural evolution which begins. The individual as evolving system. This also goes back to the Baldwin affect, and the Baldwin affect the idea that learning leads genetic pollution that learning is the leading edge of genetic evolution with proposed all the way back in the beginning of the twentieth century, but has been this orphan concept, all these years, did not play an important goal in the modern, synthesis. And only now is cutting into its own. Are we really beginning to comprehend but means for first individual payroll flexibility, and second cultural evolution to be the leading edge of genetic evolution? And that's where dueled heritage theory, and all these things are heading, and it has enormous practical applications. I mean, once you really take this on board, the idea that we can use it. To ma- edge positive change in real world settings both at the individual level population level because just a south evident. And our book is, is I have to think an important step in, in those practical application wonderful wonderful in you both. If you got a second wrote about this in your BBS article volving, the future. You talked about that metaphor of the mileage, you can get out of thinking about the payroll system like immune system. So that, that was a cool paper, you know, with the way, Bs works is you get a lot of people responding. And we're there any particular responses to your argument that you want to point out as well. That's a fair point. That was a good point. You know it changed your thinking about it. I like to think of the BBS article our first milestone that after we had been working almost six or eight years together Tony data Stephen mysel- than we wrote that article, and the an-and this book is the second milestone, when I take back over the common. Jerry's that's not that I've read them recently. What I see is mostly acceptability as I recall. And the main thing is, is that on these grunts, I think, academic cultures so slow that progress gets mentioned gets measured in decades. Landon needs to get injured in, in years. And so, I think there's a problem of catalysis, I think that in order to get things to change more or quickly. So I'm thinking those counties. That was two thousand fourteen. Now it's a two thousand eighteen for years went by. And how much has happened and not not. So we really need to think, in terms of year is not decades, for, for a cultural academic, cultural, giant and cultural change in, in real world settings. You know, the commentaries were were startlingly supportive in the sense of appreciating the effort in it wasn't the way, I think something has changed because you there were very dismissive things that happened in these early efforts ground work has been laid by all these different wings in their own way doing their slow careful academic development and the ones that were little challenging, but we're not because it was like, oh, instead of that. We're ones where we really were being challenged to put it into the context of extended, synthesis. And so we talked a little more about the tin Bergens for questions for example, in response to the commentaries as trying to see. That trying to help people see the but we're trying to do is put this into a well rounded, evolutionary, synthesis. But you know as as that happens. This is the part where you begin to see change happening, all directions. Double headed arrows everywhere. You know what I see as this has played out in my own thinking is much more of an appreciation of the dynamical system, like quality of the life of an individual the life of a couple of grew the life of a community and human life as part of all of life as part of a, you know, this almost planetary scale way of thinking it keeps going up, you can't think just in, once you get into multidimensional multi level, you can't just take a piece of it and say, I'm focused on this, whatever it is, and then failed understand as you do that what you're doing bears on the larger picture in. So if pick one David haven't really talked about at all. All but a mentioned to him, an impact these years together, Pat on, on mate. I'm writing now about processes of change in psychotherapy and find myself writing essentially, this multi level multi dimensional way of thinking about process of change in, in psychotherapy that is, you know, really stretches. My -bility even to think about how to study it because I, I find myself having to learn things, like how to do the complex network, analyses, dynamical systems, analyses and things that I don't think most researchers in psychotherapy do in there doing randomized trials, which is fine. But it's so klenge it. So and then their process accounts are things like mediation analyses. These very limited one headed Aero's, if their system. There are really crude system. It's all linear and all goes in one direction. Nothing's recurs, if nothing interacts novels immensely, have one or two things. This is why they're works. What nonsense, of course that you can have to build in? I can see the time coming when people are actually literally doing things in psychotherapy like doing Earl swabs. Looking at what happens with up down regulation of genes genetic processes. But that just that not just appreciating that levels of analysis. But appreciate the multidimensional and dynamic nature of it. That's much more like how you would in fact, analyze that say that functioning human immune system than it is, like, you know, just getting a blue ribbon for the evidence base there be. I mean, what we you know, the, the, the behavioral small, the human behavioral sciences really need to up their sophistication about the multidimensional and multi level nature, the questions that they're asking across time. And so that these kind of crude one time, and is in our measurement system. Psychometric says wrong in my opinion, doesn't stand up to another legionary view group designs are wrong are just so crude as an instrument our process designs methods a wrong. Said in my lab last Friday, David said, here's the effective more than ten years. David Sloan Wilson I think ninety eight percent of the research for doing psychology is wrong. Why women hold on. Hold on, because he he tested my field there. So why psychometric which instruments particularly this thing? They're all the big five is rolling. It's on psychometric I come out of that tradition. Alan resist my grand. Okay. Intellectual grandfather, AARP Elland, who is that just Chicago's I measure of intelligence in infants is my great-grandfather. So I come out of the psychometric lineage. John cone was my mentor and, and psychometric and try to bring classic second concepts into behavioral assessment. I think with a net negative, frankly, wonderful man. But I don't think it was a good idea. Because what psychometric does is it says, we're gonna look at consistency by looking across items and people at a given point of time. And that's our fundamental unit not within individuals across time. And, you know, ca- tell has P techniques he knew he was doing it. He had a little matrix there. And, and, you know, when they fought factor analysis that fought over this should we look at the clustering with individuals across time or should we look at clustering across items, and people get pointed time and that other view one, which is a huge mistake. You wouldn't go out think about this. You wouldn't go out into a natural environment and watch the behavior of a troop. Let's say. And then say you know, I'm really not interested in that animal animal animal animal. I'm interested in the average. I'm interested in the average of the truth. You know that basic move is deep inside Secca metrics. Yeah. It fails is that there's a set of sumptious that required to do that. Caller Dodig assumptions that the mathematicians in nineteen thirty four worked out at showed in physics, by the way, that, that only works that the larger super set is a good measure of process only works under a set of substance, which cannot be applied to individuals across time as soon as you have a trend because you'd have to -ssume that every animal is showing the same trend and sequence of how these different processes come together that's nonsense, of course as true. So you end up with an average that reflects often no one. But when you like assess like the intervention effectiveness of an act intervention, you know, you have to have measures to act you need or something. Xers measures were demanded even APA put it in the ethics that you genuflect the psychometric, but I think Sacramento's going down. I don't think it's. What kind of one kind of? I mean, one kind of psychometric Marquis down, but not all kinds of them. Measure. But that's what you mean by second metrics of you in classical second metrics, the reason is, it's the wrong level analysis in my opinion for characterizing processes change measuring. So if you went back, you, you do that say, ecological momentary assessment high density, measurement like you would do naturally. If you're out in the field doing optical study, and you look to see what of the trans for the organisms, you're looking at one at a time, and then collected you can look at the group level, that's not what I'm saying. It doesn't have to be at the individual level, but it has to be respectful of the actual data spread across time. There's a different way of looking at quality assessment than the way that we have come to view with essentially a latent variable that you're modeling there's nothing. You don't need the latent variable. This is a longer conversation. It probably takes it. There is a narrative. We're definitely we're definitely. We're definitely drilling down here. Hope you're keeping up with. They loved it. I think they love this kind of nerdiness, but I do want to refocus us, but I feel like I would feel guilty if I didn't respond to what you just said real quick, though. I would feel guilty, so I do feel like there are there's a greater awareness in feel like people will fleece, in, and there are a bunch of researchers that are really interested in that within person variation level of analysis. And I'm totally with you that, that level analysis has been neglected for a lot of the field of personality psychology. Okay. Just wanted to say that, but we're let's move on. And then maybe I'll get you back on some day. We can have a whole chat just about psychometric that could be fun. So Steve, how come when the first time you encountered David's work? You came home in, you cried. Yep. Or his story. But I sorta swore not going to subject him to it again in here. Not you've made it happen. But in the long the short have to answer in be like a person. If enter if I can I can let's do it one more time either personality desert wondering around separately. You know, found an ice chest with the with the diet coke, it or something, you know, it would be fair to say that some of the thinking in gene Centric era was really not friendly to idea variations Lexington lifetime individual as being important number one, but number two is, you know, there is kind of dated. I'm sorry at this. But some of the looseness are mean I mean I gotta their websites and stuff. And I say how you do it Allie, you know, they these not down drag out, fights, you know, Stephen Jay Gould dock ins in. And they love it. They live for it. It's no holds bar, and it's like under watch cage fighting, or something academic, h well, you know, I'm like well, in most volition, est literally, I had literally had laughed and might face. I mean I went to UCSE until the story and I'm giving a talk this twenty five years to the bay geneticist for some reason they asked me to do it in, in the students are there, and I'm saying it is always a gene environment. Interaction always it's you might say a hundred percent of the variance, if you had in just the right timeframe and the students literally laughed out loud in my face in talk, what? Yeah. Because if you do classic behavioral genetics. G E G times e with this governor acts never Iraq's. Works. But of course, immune could say things like there's no interaction with the skin color. And what in it's because wherever you go, if you're the blackest of the black person prejudices, there, it doesn't matter of your raise together, a raised apart. I mean, I did that this isn't the new show. Have you take something might classic example is physical attractiveness. Most powerful, demographic variable even more the gender race. But we've done this. That is. If you do a randomized trial, you know, with repair in with plastic surgery in almost every area would physical tractive Innis looks like it's genetic if you do it to classic things, all of the stuff at dental land sallow, they're more elected similar is called genetic because all of this social variants that comes from Uruguay, and you're pretty which is huge. Is called genetic because it's genetic input to a consistent social system. But when you step out of it, you say, let's do a randomized, trout, plastic surgery. It turns out all those ExCo. So they can't be genetic in that the way that people mean it any good behavioral geneticist will get him in a corner and you fight for half an hour and say the always admit this truth or say, yeah. At a suffer, plausible not very important, because and they forget that some of the early work, they didn't even keep track of fraternal twins. Whether or not, they're the same gender in the early work that didn't keep track of female, female male female. And so am getting excited here right now. I feel like we need to do another podcast. Chad behavioral? Now. I'm realizing as well. But did you with this level is fist occasion, who saying something very different about the behavioral folks and to stop and say, wait a minute that fits my way of thinking? Yeah, it wasn't enough to make me weep in the same way that person would weep to find a glass of ice water. David is very special in general, but also the field of evolution psychology. So I can totally see, you know that resonance that you had I can resonate with that residents that you had. You know, I do have some criticisms of what has been dubbed by what's his name. They call it pop evolutionary psychology who dubs at that. What's his name? David Borer David Buller David are. Yeah. Yes, he refers to pop evolutionary psychology. And I think there is something there that there are, are some really misguided kind of theories within within the obviously, the whole field of evolution not perfect. Right. So how. Would you distinguish yourself your perspective from sort of pop idea of, you know, we only evolved these models witness certain timeframe that we're not still evolving that all these other kinds of Christians that he kind of raises about the ballot because pop alluring psychology. Well, okay, so there's a worthy. One thing that needs to be said, David bowlers book was great book further, but I could acknowledge that without trashing visionary. Shahala, Judy, and I think that the accusation that emotional psychology bad science as at self bad commentaries. And, you know, I'm always reminded social Darwinism. I mean evolutionary thought has suffered under the label jar label social Darwinism for whole century. That's a lotta shit too. That's a real bogeyman, and we have to be vigilant against these sort of bogeyman dismissals of what often ends up being. Just perfectly fine science. I gimme a break these articles that make it through the pig reduce system, they appear in fine journals. And so why would you call that junk science when they are actually part of the peer review of pair of you system. David Schmidt, whose another evolutionary psychologists, that I admire a wonderful article in this, you of life on the article is titled, yes. But in fact city ideas, as yes, but some critique but when more studies are done. It's all yes. Baden is nothing but a series of. Yes, butts in order to maintain this decision that there's something junkie about evolutionary psychology. So another listener psychology of bury very important, baby, and the bathwater, and what David Bullard was doing was, I think he was separating the baby into the bathwater and what we need to do is we need to that. Most important schools of thought have a baby. In addition to the bath water, the idea that some important school of thought would arise and smart, people would develop it, and so on, and there'd be no baby whatsoever. There's an evolution as named AJ cane. He was an ecological geneticist their way back. And he has quote that I have on my door, which is only the shallowest Ryan can believe that in a great controversy, one side is mere falling. So as we talk with each other. Let's look for the baby and aggregate, the babies grow out the letters. Just wanted to take this moment to thank you all for your support of the podcast over the years. It's been a real privilege to do this podcast for y'all for the past four years. It's been a real labor of love if you'd like to further support the podcast. I wanted to a few things you can do to help make it a better experience for you all I really appreciate it. If you could subscribe to the psychology podcast on itunes, this would help make the show more prominent I tunes and increase our listenership. I believe you conscription both on your iphone and on your computer second. It'd be great. If you could give the show a rating and review, and I tunes, I definitely read all the reviews and they're helpful to others who are thinking about giving the show. Listen another thing you can do is donate something to the show. Even just the price of a Cup of coffee would really help me continue to do this podcast for y'all to donate something, you can go to this ecology, podcast dot com and click on the link at the bottom that says become sponsor. So thanks again, for your incredible support of the show over the years, you know, I do the show for y'all because I truly love sharing enthusiasm and of the mind brain in Craig. City, and I really appreciate you. Joining me on this journey. Okay. Now back to the show. So why don't we in the remaining time we have here in this conversation, then focus on some of these really great ideas in this volume that you to ended because I think that these are examples of good science of good application of your perspectives. We can start with I like Duckworth chapter so Rene Duckworth. She put for this metaphor, the skeleton metaphor, you know, that in order to be flexible. We need a skeleton, but a skeleton is inflexible and self inflexibly go hand in hand. That's the most wonderful thing to say, I praised that in the buck, and isn't that isn't that a wonderful position of ideas. It's really wonderful in. It's Doug tells with your immune system analogy. Well, can we talk about our chapter reconciling the tension between behavioral change instability? I'm really interested in this tension within my own field of personality psychology. Because the highest level the personality structure, we have plasticity and we have stability. Those are the big two that lie above the big five and, you know, we have too much ability than we're not going to change and grow. But if we're always exploring growing, we was a sense of, like, who we are. And you know things can get very exotic ridden fast. So as you talk about how your protective for we do that. Let me just say for the benefit of your audience, the structure of the bark is an innovative structure, what we did was we bicker, number of major topics and bridge nose. Topics. We commissioned authors from contextual behavioral sciences and authors from Volusia resigns, read supper chapter, and then we had them lead each other shelters and to have dialogue, which was moderated by her Stephen myself, and then those dialogues appeared along with the two chapters that repeated a number of different topics. So I think that makes it a quite original organization, and a lot of fun to read, basically, because your first one side than the other in the conversation. So now, now let's proceed Renate agreed on very innovative. And you also say in your book that you didn't tell the authors what to write. And so all these kinds of linkages and things just organically came together. So I wanted to raise that point as well. We did it actually is kind of a grand test. We know this could have really got badly we sent. Here's a topic or general topic. You write about the way you want to write about from your. And by golly, these things overlap, not an in a way that to him. But actually there's a dynamic kind of thing you could see both sides. And you know, this David talking about of really coming into this. I was criticizing being mean that was talking about the second tradition of as kind of a mean way. But it wasn't that that that's wrong. It's just that there's a different ways to look at it. You know, I think what is what's neat about the skeletal metaphors reminds you of this combination, Vermont's, like the immune system example, in, in different contexts, take something like a concept. That's very close to my heart. That say psychological flexibility defined as motion cognitive openness, attentional flexibility connection at your values. It depends on how you measure it. But you can find things like emergency first responders, for example, who engage in emotionally suppressive behavior while there. Triaging, people who are, you know, have massive energies in front of them, and doesn't that make sense? I mean, would you want your first responders to be crying, whether trying to, you know, pick who's new might be saved with a big auto accident say, no go Dow working with them as individuals? I wanted to go home to have an area, the put their emotions that were there or whatever. But in the situation, I want them to have that kind of attentional flexibility might even look like suppression might look like rigidity, one of the things I worry about, however, in this, get me over into personalities collagen that earlier ran very easily is in order to detect the differences in importance of it. You have to look within the, the units, you looking at across time and situation in way worth methodology that really fits that. And so the whole idea personality that say, you know, the looks like rigid structure, Nagoya cross at one time big. Five, etc. That's built into our language systems. That's remember where big five came from. We don't have time to that story. But, you know, well at and how committed it was to language structures and even English in the way it was originally developed. But when you do that, as a guy name, all our at Penn State who's done that looking within individual cross time. Cole bunch of people in often. You don't see those consistencies. You don't see people who have, you know, this big five actually this personality in all situations behaving that way. Or maybe even in most situations and time. So in order to really balance flexibility structure. We've gotta look at function context in launch toodle development and that's inside evolutionary thinking with the Yvo Devaux, you know, some of the things we really need to do that. Also in the behavioral science way. But the point is, well taken that it's not all flexibility, rans not all structure. Both. They manically across time like context that is what's distinctive about contextual? Behavioral science. Exactly. Is it a koso- much on the context? And I think one personality psychologist got it right. Was Walter mischel. I believe I'm correctly and in evolutionary germs. But he was saying, is that what, what, what people have by way of temperamental personality that's changing. Relatively unchanging is enormous reaction. And the norm reaction basically, specify different phenotype for different contexts. So the, the idea of an individual as normal reaction, I think captures a, a stable and a flexible element little bed like the skeleton as being needed for movement. Did you see the debates between Walter Michelle and by the way, he passed away recently? And Seymour, Epstein those kind of classic debates in seventies on with an personality is has a general component or specific. But in the wake reconciled it anyway. Found that really stimulating those quarter beats. And I think Seymour Epstein really was thinking about it probably even a better way, then Walter. Well, I think we have more to go on that. I think as we get into a more fine grain multidimensional multi level examination, we're going to have to go back and look at some of these classic concepts and see it over and over again some things that we've settled that, that there, there are structural given that is actually very dangerous for that Lucious. And it touches the neighbors, because different scene was even involvement is the, you know, the bell curve kind of thing around issue of intelligence, and I am not at all convinced that we know what, which parts are affixed in stable, we're back to the same kind of thing have to may talking about before. And because you can create. Extraordinary environments, and when extraordinary virus can be created in many different ways. And so you should never, ever say this is because you don't know if you don't know the full range of things. If you take that say, the, you know, the fixed patterns, bitter, they're in, you know, the character traits that are shown maybe even at birth of particular individual, yes. But under extrordinary circumstances, those can be different. And so you look at things like you know twin studies with schizophrenia or something, you say okay, well, this person develops schizophrenia. This one didn't their dental twins yet, but look at what happened to this person, and you begin to dive into for example, the kind of life trajectories, that can take a tendency of predisposition and turn it into a full kind of behavioral phenotype I think we have to do the same thing with intelligence. I think we've gotten way too Lynn to only looking at. The level of the collective and the behavior analysts over here, just say, little chest, thumping, we now four or five randomized trials showing we can go in with good intelligence, the part that doesn't move when moving these things five six eight nine depending on the study points in people don't yet, believe it, and I'm not yet ready to let my hair on fire, and I don't have any anyway, but, but getting thing you know the way they're doing it pushing fluency of relational learning, you know, the stuff coming out of relational frame theory, which is very weird thing to do. Nobody's gonna do that. Education, unifier you in your me? What would I have if every industry today, I review and you were me? What would I never gonna do that in a normal active classroom? It looks nuts. But if you understand the unit, you can create extraordinary environments that maybe, maybe I'm not declaring win. I'm just saying it possible. And there's some studies, there's this isn't crazy. So how much is this going, how much is the soft tissue? Let's find out and I think we're gonna favorite examples, what was taken to be a a an innate, not quite an age difference. It's the marshmallow test. And so the marshmallow tennis is supposed to be something that if a kid fails emotional tests net predict outcomes. It hasn't easterly. Let's set that study has implicated recently. Well, the study, I don't think I don't remember the, the author, but what they did was basically machined built was that twelve on Sheldon. Yes, I think so. Go ahead. This is more. Recent. It's a woman university Rochester in which he observed in the field. And intercity neighbor was a little girl is sitting on the on the stairs in some Gaber in ice cream cone in the get a first leg seminals took away the ice cream cone, insert. She had a moment and she did a set of experiments in which she would do the marshmallow test, but didn't in one condition, she would build up trust with the little person. That style trusting relationship is not. And after I style Beijing trusting relationship than the same kids would fail the marshmallow pass it with ease. So what was stable was the untrusting nature of there are Flynn Arment. That's what didn't change. It wasn't their lack of flexibility as as an individual are. There's a good example. I think of something that's environmental, which is misinterpreted as something which is a stable property of the visual. Jump in because such a coin even even the skeleton example, the evoke Devaux folks show if you have some early early injury to your skeletal structure, you can often end up with a modification, the last work perfectly well, as an injury do your hip, some of the Yvo diva work with the animals are set up so that they can adjust to injury, even to what's structural inconsistent in such ways to adjust to that. And find a way to for legged animal. That's severe injury to function pretty well with one limits injured in. It's a metaphor for the fact of point of trying to make, which is that if you think in system way, mostly dementia, multilevel, you should never turn it into tinker toys, or build blocks. It's never a cartoon and doesn't mean everything modifiable within the lifetime had vigil doesn't mean that, but the evolutionary. Sciences science of change and stability emerging in the context of chain. So you, it's dialectic, and you never should sort of draw circle and say this is in this camp. No, it may be able to move. And when you start thinking with application, you know, I stopped thinking of an annual as good point about social Darwinism. But on the one hand on the other hand intil there's an applied psychology that tells the public that not only can this help you understand life. This view of life is powerful again. Help us as a human community change areas where we all know you need to change around issues, like racism, or stepping up to the challenge of climate change and things of that kind you need an applied science. And, you know, you don't have to go too far when you get into cartoon like evolutionary thinking of people, making Evelyn Inari appeals to things that if you step back look. At our gender biased or racist or classes, or I mean and so, and, you know there are really good ablution there in the past even Darwin made a few mistakes, and we talked about the Mari and things like that. So, you know, I think we have to sort of step back and take where we are. Now, evolutionary thinking in really bring it into the life of the human community, because the reason why people don't reject it. When we step forward is, I think people kind of go like, oh, that makes sense. And they've been uring for it in Darwin suckling away. Loosens going way. Everybody knows that everybody who's thoughtful knows that, when it's only one hundred years. So to just to, you know, we need some time in order starting to. And I think when we finally get to the point where we can walk into a legislature we can say you know what we can do something about that game. You know, we can do something about those poor performances and those are now appearing, Dave. It's been champion of it, and they're not cartoons. They say something that we signal noise that we can chase make a different. I like to I like to make sure to provide a capsule description of except in commitment Erica, or training, as a managing the evolutionary process, if I might and just a NASA while I might have curving might a better earlier in the, in the energy that are light than never so one, fundamental insight about Malaysian is that what counts is adaptive in the Aleutian airy sense of the word often deviates from what concert adaptive in the normative sense of the word while we might like an enormous sense for us as individuals and as cultures is frequently different than what is in the evolutionary sense in so many of our problems any, but we regard as path Allah, jeez. Arrack surely adapted in the evolutionary sense. Of the word. So, for example, being nice to your family members becomes nepotism, being nice to your friends becomes cronyism and corruption at the end of jewel level. I'm just avoiding anxiety attacks at the Banff it if I'm depressed and I don't make us opportunities. That's daft him. So, so many things that we want to change back, are he's visionary processes, whether they're modular, he built in the past or whether they're reinforced in the present are basically evolutionary processes taking where we don't want to go. And so there is and what training is, is managing the evolutionary process of evolutionary processes in order to align. At obtains in the military sense of the word within the normative Janssen the word. And when you look at what acceptance and commitment training, does it does. Exactly that. So here is my understanding of acceptance and commitment training, speaking in front of the master. That were the first way, and this could be done by individuals or groups. There's a focusing on what your true goals are, what do you really want to accomplish in your life? And so this pollution germs becomes the target of selection, we have it's like artificial breeding. Basically you've chosen a target of selection, which is our normative goal, then we focus on variation and when people are needed therapy, or training offense because their behavioral repetoire has become fused around their various problems. There are not much variation there. And so if they're up process done is it encourages flexibility that would be variation and into select what takes us towards our valued girls even if something's won't change? So it might be that you won't get rid of your panic attack. Let us say, but nevertheless. Is there a way that you could work grounded in order to achieve your valued goals? And so therefore, there's a recognition of in flexibility that there's some things that won't change or won't change easily. But nevertheless, we still can change in the ways that matter most to us. And so this is a just a very short description of how we can envision the process of training or or therapy as a manager devolutionary process at the individual level, or just as much at the level of groups and even large scale populations. If I can build on that, you know, the actual consciously tried to do this, and then, you know, have principals around variation and selection and retention you know, building habits and context building attention from conscious point point of view and dimensions in, in concerned about. You know, your emotions thought set in motivation since of self etcetera, important, dimensions and levels being concerned about yourself, you know, physically, and your health and sleep patterns and so forth and socially relationships, the you and those six variation selection retention in context, the right dimension level is my kind of cheat sheet version of, of evolutionary thinking, and what when you get to that level, then you look at behavior change part of the exciting thing, I think, forever, Lucien, est, if they see it and for behavioral, scientists if they realize they've been doing it is that we have all along been doing apply Aleutian science in the behavior change fields, and it's only because we haven't been thinking about that way that we failed to notice it and I'm involved in a project right now. That's an attempt to prove that, and what we're doing is looking at every single study on psychological intervention ever done by. Every psychotherapy every behavior change meant that we can find list that had a randomized trial where the treatment is usual, or a wait list compared to your active intervention that claimed mediation, that claimed statistical tests of the functionally important pathways to change, and we started out with fifty five thousand studies. We're looking at everyone multiple times, and we're down now to it looked like the score about thousand studies, but for part of it is what we're trying to do score it in terms of a system, we published article just came out say, we'd Stephan Hoffmann as team and myself Boston University in behavioral therapy just came out or this down line version, we're looking at new gist in the words of the people who brought this thing to the table is that particular concept one that makes sense in terms of encouraging healthy variation, encouraging healthy context, tippety altering the celek. Action criteria. You know, looking at levels of analysis and looking at the social context, it's etc. Or the physical health context or putting in practices that would lead to retention of games. And so far looks like we can do it. It looks like we can take basically everything this grandiose way. Everything we know about the functionally important processes of change that have been seen around him is trial in the history of science from a psychological point of view and score at all by visionary criteria in a pretty reliable way. And if you can do that, it means that thirty five thousand feet, we've been a from the beginning and party wants to say, of course, because exactly, what scientific principles do is explain this broad scope. But high-precision way, what is already going on? And you didn't have to know about the relatively for those principles to apply. What you're doing. Plied what you're doing in this way Bush principals at the level of any system that you're trying to change, whether it's an individual or group culture, you know, your, your body being a functioning better health, dealing, the cancer automatic any system is gonna alter the processes that explain how complex systems evolve. And so knowing that when we know that are we going to do better at that? I'd say you think I mean part of what has had what happens with principals, once you get beyond his techniques, and you start seeing principles then you begin been to manage these processes and managing blueberry processes have been doing in the behavioral sciences from the beginning. But we just didn't have a way of talking about it until Multidimensionality multi level thinking got in there enough to give us a places to table. Wow. You too. What a team what a team you know, I said this last time to you Steven you're on my podcast, last time I said, you're this rare combination of shared nerdiness, plus a real humanity. A real true, caring and compassion for the betterment of the world and David, your research program throughout the years has been very pro social ends being the evolutionary lens, but the pro social aspects, what combination you to are can I end the chat today with a quote from you, Stephen that I just absolutely adore and just wanna read it to the audience as scientists, I don't think we should be ashamed of saying that we're interested in developing knowledge that has a pro social impact. We want to play science in the high integrity, way science should be played, but the purpose of playing the game that way is to develop knowledge that can be vetted against pro social criteria is entirely within our perogatives human beings to say, this is what we want to do with our careers and lives with this wonderful tool called signs in an abstract sense. Scientists. Values free. But in the lives of scientists, and of the consumers of scientific knowledge is anything but so thank you both for joining your superpowers together to increase knowledge in a way that will increase pro-socialist in the world. In by the way, our next book is called socially finish it. So. Yes, with our with our colleague, Paul Atkins. Yup. We just just on our next books. Oh, wonderful like, can't wait to read that one in devour that one as well. And there's a lot of topics, obviously, we couldn't cover today, but for listeners who want to dive into the this grant synthesis for wide range of things that we didn't like childhood development of the development of empathy for organizational development for understanding the Bush remiss match of physical health. These are all teasers throwing out there. Definitely checkout book. So thanks again. Guys for time today. Every time. Thank you for having us. Thanks for listening to the psychology podcast. Help you enjoyed the episode if you'd like to react in some way to something you heard incurred you to join in the discussion at us comedy, podcast dot com. That's dust, I call G podcast dot com. also present a rating and review the psychology podcast on itunes. Thanks for being such a great supporter of podcast, and tune in next time more on the mind, brain behavior N creativity.

David Borer David Buller David Steve Lucien David swollen Wilson Stephen Binghamton university Dr Scott Barry Kaufman ABC university of Nevada scientist Skinner lifetime achievement award Binghamton Sassi David Sloan Wilson Gary partner Stacy
Risk Versus Reward

First Take

51:51 min | 10 months ago

Risk Versus Reward

"Your agent said this week that you'll be ready to play as a rookie. What do you say about your timetable? Have you thought about that at all? I feel I feel as normal as can be. I feel like if if I had to go out there and perform same. Why DID MICE SOPHOMORE YEAR? And my junior year of being on one hundred percent healthy. I mean I feel like I'd be able to go out there and do that. Scale of one to ten ten. Feeling the best you've ever felt. How would you rate your body right now? I'd say I'm I'm one hundred percent right now. I'm just ready to go play. It's been it's been four months to such a likable guy. That was former Alabama quarterback to a tug O buy low with our Kevin Gandhi yesterday on sportscenter and it sure sounds like tool believes he will be able to play this season. You see the teams holding. The top picks there including the redskins in the highly coveted number. Two spot on that note. We bring in two time Superbowl Champs McFarland boettger. Thank you for joining the conversation and Max. I was watching the interview. Live by Kevin Gonda. He did a fantastic job and there was someone in my house who got out of their stool screaming at the TV. Why can't the lions finally do something right draft him three? It'd be perfect and he could play right behind. Stafford all fired up. You can only imagine that. But assuming the bengals go with borough number one do think the redskins should go with to to even though they have join. Haskins on the roster. Yeah I do. And I was a big proponent of drafting Haskins you know I really was Haskins booster last year I loved what I saw it Ohio state. He did not play. Well look I know. He's very young. I know quarterbacks once upon a time it took him a while to get going. You didn't play well this year. Yes he played a little better as the season went on. He was not prepared. Properly by the franchise but based on what I've seen from Haskins. I think he may be a successful. Nfl quarterback that remains to be seen the odds that he turns into a great NFL quarterback if you had the handicap it right now. Don't look terrific but could he be applied NFL player. Yeah I think so. I think you could. Even maybe develop into a franchise quarterback. It's possible if two is healthy. I'm confident he's going to be an excellent quarterback. I'm confident about that. I think most people are. The real question is the durability in the health but I think once you know that about the talent the mental makeup all those things ability to handle pressure. The accuracy reading defenses the ability to make off schedule. Please even to use mobility in the right way the whole thing once you know all that stuff about a guy or you think you do. I think you can't pass him up if you don't know that you have a great quarterback so maybe I'm being a prisoner of the moment. I know chase young as an amazing talent. But but I don't think that Washington knows they have an excellent franchise quarterback and I think for that reason. You can't pass up onto a couple of things number one. I've been told that the wash the redskins are not going to touch to a because they're going after chase young. That's what Daniel Snyder wants them to do. And then drafting a quarterback. That's what I've been told so. We'll see so we'll see what happens. that's what. I reported weeks ago. That's number one number two in terms of the individual in your household molly. I'd like to remind that particular person That at the Detroit. Lions have only made the playoffs three times this millennium A matter of fact. They've made the playoffs. Eight times since nineteen ninety-one which is the last time they WANNA playoff game. Okay so and so. And so the reality of the situation is it's not about the quarterback it's about organization from the top on down with the Detroit Lions. They've been more period. A quarterback ankle can say ain't GonNa come and save the franchise the franchise in all likelihood will contaminate the quarterback because Matthew Stafford ain't that bad number three. Here's the reality of the situation. The redskins should not consider too. And here's what because of the durability issue you can't have a question mark at the quarterback position due to talent then bringing the question mark because durability in arguably the most violence that we know or at least second to the UFC and maybe boxing this is what it is in the national football league. It's highly physical. It's very very violent and durability is a question more. You can't have a question mark at the quarterback position and bring in another question mark at the expense of passing up. A Stud Pass rushing which is the second most biggest need in the national football league in this day and age. If you talk to football people they'll sit up there and tell you what's number one thing you're after a quarterback goes to number two thing you're after a pass rusher well chase young is a past. Russia. He's the elite pass rusher in this upcoming drab. You've got the chance to get in with the number two overall pick. Could you imagine if they pass up on him and grabbed tour and then? Haskins doesn't pan out and gets hurt early. That would be problematic for you. Don't want that especially when the last time you did. You drafted all three. Which wasn't a bad pick by any stretch of the imagination. But his leg almost got amputated Bilo de Nada with that hit and he was never the same in his career again. You simply can't take that chance by passing up somebody like chase. Yeah I definitely agree with you Stephen. As far as changed in August concern. And then let's not forget. I don't even understand really why we're having a conversation if you're Daniel Snyder. Bala account and he was in charge of the draft last year when they decided to draft Wayne Haskins and they took him in the first round and we know what happened with Jay Gruden the staff. They didn't won't away and having so therefore they didn't bring him alone nurturing. The coaching we all that they're gone okay but the owner is still there and I think that the owner when he met with head coach now Ron Rivera told him. Hey this is the guy that I put my word down on it. I wanted as my quarterback. This is the guy who we're going to move forward. So why would we come back a year later and draft who are talking about lower at number two whatever happened in this country to drafting a guy taking somebody who's young and developing them and nurturing them and seeing what you have at a certain point too many times in this country we want everything to be one hundred percent perfect right now. That's not how it is. I keep up in a draft. We're rich McKay Tony Dungy. They drafted and developed their team. You're not going to find instant. Success Ready may success. Sometimes you gotTa Take Your Time and nurture guy and coach them up and bring him along too many times now. Coaches Front Office exempts too many people. They don't WanNa do their damn job and develop people in coached him up and get them to a point. We've wanted instant. It's not gonNA happen so take into at number two. This is not even a question you have the Wayne Haskins you take chase you on getting number two and now you can start to build a team. That's been the problem in Washington for way too long. They won't instant success remember back in the day they went out and signing all these free agents. You can't buy a team at some point. You got to dry up and develop and coach and nurture people. That's the problem in this country right now. We won't everything so damn fast and we don't want to take our time and developing and hopefully I say hopefully grind with you weigh in draft and develop. I agree with you on principle in theory draft and develop. Here's what I have to say about why I would take to where I Washington. They took Haskins what seventeenth last year. It's a mid first round and you don't know where you're going to be in the draft the following year who's going to be available all those things but if they're now in a position that they couldn't have anticipated where they have a chance to get a better quarterback. If you think you will be a better quarterback schorr thing as as a real high end quarterback. I don't think it can pass it up and I'll tell you what's changed. What's changing this country? Book every generation generation every generation blames the new generation for wanting the microwave for wanting everything faster. But what we found. Is this the rookie contract for the quarterback is where you can win because once they get so? The clock is ticking. As soon as you don't have three years to develop guys anymore Stephen Amax. I think it's time for the fans to get to decide the debate. Send us the topics. You WanNa see. Maxson Stephen a battle on. It's really easy. Just send the debate topic tag. I take on twitter and make sure you stick around a little later in the show to see your idea. Main the cut as today's fan debate. Nfl executives are looking at the cowboy sideways because of the Amari Cooper Signing Dallas. Sign the receiver to a five year. One hundred million dollar contract in free agency this off season at least one rival executive is criticizing the signing that according to the Athletic Amari Cooper twenty million to me it should be no more than fifteen million with all the receivers in the draft. And what the veteran receivers. We're getting in free agency. I'm sorry Amari Cooper helps but he does not tell the field he has not shown up consistently you can say a lot of negative things about Antonio Brown but he was a difference maker. Booger McFarland back here with US Stephen. You're up I do. These executives have a point about Amari. Cooper slightly not totally. I think that there's a legitimate argument. That could be made that first of all. There's no way in hell. That Amari Cooper is guaranteed dollars. Should be more then a Michael Thomas. De'andre Hopkins of people like that. I think right now. He's second to Julio Jones if I remember correctly But I think there's something that needs to be said about being somebody again. That's trustworthy Amari. Cooper can play Amari Cooper can catch the ball mark. Who was the number one perceive Omari coupon runs routes And you know he shows up for the most part and there was a couple of games these one game where he wasn't in the game the last place for some reason. Jason Guaranteed Keller more than have them on the field. There was another game. We was a bit hurt And couldn't get out or took himself out. That wasn't great but in the end where you consider his upside Combined with the level of discipline that he exercises the fact that he's a professional. He doesn't get himself involved in idiotic. Nonsense he's not a distraction or cancerous in the locker room plus he goes out there he can ball. I definitely think that he should be one of those top five paid receivers. He doesn't deserve to be number one or two. I can think of at least three guys. That should be paid more than him. But I. that's why I give a little bit of created to what they executives unnamed executives of saying. I just think it's going a bit too far to talk about him like he some scrub. That's lucky to be on the Dallas cowboys doesn't deserve any money. He deserves a lot of money. He's gifted he skilled. He's good he just may not deserve as much as he got. That's that was the executive point. He said he doesn't tilt the field does beat as mad though consistently he just doesn't tilt the field look if he was more consistent if you could be at his best all the time then he'd be Antonio Brown or something like that and he's not and yet he has much more value than Tonio Brown. Antonio Brown is just saying. Hey I'll play for anyone. No one wants them. Amari Cooper in your locker room with the media on the field etc etc is really good. You'd prefer to have him in the end. All Things considered and a lot of guys but not as the top paid. Guy Steven A. And that's the point. You know he does a lot of good things. He does them less often than the very top guys but the cowboys weren't a tough spot. They traded a lot to get him and then they were afraid they could lose him so all that is for nothing. It's just a sunk cost right and he is a difference maker on the cowboys. Cowboys function much better. That Prescott functions much better with Amari Cooper. Now you can say well you may be able to solve swap Amari Cooper out for a bunch of lead receivers and that may be true but he is the lead receiver. He is the number one receiver on a lot of teams. And so because the cowboys really need that and gave up a lot to get it and when you add all the other stuff that you touched on Stephen into the equation worth that to the cowboys and even then you may say that they overpaid by a little bit guys. Who What we're essentially talking about here is value from a worse day. Appoint your worth with. Someone is willing to pay you but from from a value standpoint. He's very valuable to the cowboys. But if you're looking at San it's the overpaid absolutely because when you talk about the top three receivers in football in whatever order you want to put them in Michael Thomas. Julio Jones the Andrea Hopkins Amari Cooper is not on that level. He's not but yet still when you look at the salary when you look at the money. He's right up there and I get it timing and the cowboys traded away the first round pick but I think I understand what this unnamed executives talking about if we're just going to look at it in a vacuum and say okay looking at how much money he's making can't he dictate to defense. Is He that much of a difference maker from our standpoint based on the amount of money he's making I would agree with that unnamed exempt? Because he's not now. I understand the cowboys where we're forced because of what they gave gave up for him. But if we're just talking about the top three receivers and football you tell me. Mario Amari Cooper is better than any of the guy's name. I don't think anybody saying that this comes down to but let but hold on mouth whether it be a lesson to everybody. Listen we on this show right now and there's a lot of things that we gotta talk about and we're talking about sports but we're also talking about disseminating message really really resonate so people can understand what's going on and how you're supposed to conduct yourself moving forward. We talked about Antonio Brown earlier in the show. We're talking about Amari Cooper right now. We're talking about Antonio Brown who is an all world receivable all the talent in the world and right now. He's struggling the fought anybody that would want him because of his behavior it matters and I know that we say and we all know it but I do think Burger at this particular moment in time as somebody that's been associated with the National Football League for as long as you have been particularly with the great work you did Covering College Football. This is important to remind and resonate with young folks out there. Your behavior matters. You have to be trustworthy and when I say trustworthy that means I have to be able to trust that. Show up to work to be able to trust that you're GONNA put the team on the elevated level just as much as you might put yourself up there. If not even more so I have to trust that you're not going to be a divisive force inside my locker room. I have to trust that you're going to maximize your potential to the best of your ability on for the betterment of team just as much as yourself all of those things contribute to you getting paid when we excoriated bill. O'brien for letting go up the Audrey Hopkins. What's the number one thing we say? Yes we talked about his talent and has great hands when he brings to the table but what we also pointed to was the fact. This do was active in the community. He was due to Shawn Watson. You're starting quarterback out of Clemson. Loves the GUY and the only person that didn't like him was you bill. O'brien because of your personal feelings about him. He needed to go. What sense does that make? These are the kind of things that we can use this opportunity to point out for all the youngsters on a come up needing recognized. How you supposed to act to conduct yourself if you WANNA be. Okay Yeah Julio Jones highest average annual what what I say. Julio Jones has the highest average annual when you don't just count the extension like his extension was for even more the extension years and he just shut up and played and was a good teammate. And all this stuff and Antonio Brown's out of the League and he was agitating for change and and all that stuff so I think that's true. I think we have to look at the cowboys to hear guys. There's some wish casting going on. I think in Dallas because in terms of the triplets and. That's not how you win. You know you need your quarterback you need your pass rusher. You need your offensive line. There are things you need before it. Just your quarterback wide out and great back. You don't need it all world back but their their wish casting in the sense that they have a franchise quarterback they have a legit number one receiver. And they haven't all world running back but not all of them are created equal like Dak Prescott to franchise quarterback. But you can't just say hey Daqing Amari be as good at your position as Zeke is at his. If they were they'd be in a different place but the fact is if you pay back like he is if you pay. Amari like he is and they're not quite there number ones but they're not all pros then you need a whole lot more around them and I think that's what's going on in Dallas. Go ahead and then and then Max to add to that what you're basically talking about is how you slice up by. When you pay Mario Cooper twenty million dollars you got DAK Prescott coming down the pipe it are you getting equal value when you pay Prescott. His thirty six thirty seven million dollars a year. I think that's where Jerry Jones Steve Jones have to figure out how they slice their economic pile up in Dallas. But you know when you look at Amari Cooper and Stephanie. You make a great point about doing the right thing as a young person and making sure you show up on time and just being a good person overall. That's basically what you're talking about understanding right from wrong now. Even with that being said they're not paying twenty million dollars a year for choir. Boys you gotTa have some type of talent and I guarantee you if you were to talk to a lot more unnamed. Gm's they would tell you if we could get the play. You know what I'm saying. The player not everything else that comes with it. The player Antonio Brown or the player Mark Cooper. Everybody would take Antonio Brown over Amari Cooper from a player's standpoint. Now you got to add in all the off the field stuff and Addie cannot trust you to come to work. I get all that but I think that's why. Not only this unnamed executive but I think if you polled a lot more people they would tell you from a talent standpoint Amari Cooper may not be in the top five talent at the wire receiver position but because of all the things you spoke Stephen A. And all the goodwill he has and because of the position that the cowboys were in trading. Wait a first round pick. That's why he has to be a twenty million dollars a year receiver. He earned it. He got it. He MAY NOT BE METALLIC STANDPOINT. He not deserve it but more power to them. You're worth was someone is willing to pay you. In Amari Cooper based on leverage got his twenty million a year. Yeah Worth what you negotiate there and we mentioned this over top of this show. The cowboys have signed Alden Smith to a one year deal. He hasn't played a game since two thousand fifteen combining home and auto with state farm. Gets you a whole lot covered for less? But this radio AD gives you this. Jam covered for three cover to combining policies for and off for more coverage as far dot com. All I think about is just hope that everybody is staying healthy and doing everything they can to stay healthy now. Nobody's above this so we all gotta do the right things and think of the right things right now. Health is number one so everybody out there. You know what you gotTa do stay healthy. Wash your hands right. God bless Amen to that. Our next guest is one of the best. Nhl Players one of the best balls on Social Media Devil Star PK. Sue Gun and a friend of the show here. Pk A great to see you. Thanks for being with us this morning and I wanted to ask you obviously the. Nhl has come to a whole you play for the devils in New Jersey. That was hit very hard that area. Your fiancee Lindsey Vonn. Also a world class athlete for you both right now as athletes. What has it been like waiting to return to work these past few weeks. It's been tough obviously Love we do and obviously being professional athletes Where so custom to being into a routine and it'd be pulled out of that routine and not being able to fulfill your obligations of of working every day but at this point in time there's just there's more things going on right now that are important and health and wellness is the number one thing and this is a global issue so you know hockey basketball football baseball. All that stuff comes secondary and right now with all of our platforms including the shells are individual. You gotta use that to to help the situation turn around and influence people in the right way to give back and help as many people that are struggling can't PK. Always appreciate you being on the show. Buddy let me ask you. This question is an all world athlete. You talked about staying healthy and whatever and obviously watching your hands and all of that stuff in particularly in this moment of time is paramount. But can you give some insight in the people from your perspective when you say? Stay in healthy or giving yourself healthy. Exactly what do you mean beyond that? I want to know whether it is in the exercise that you do whatever the case may be just to help people out in that regard. Talk about that for a second. Yeah for sure you know. It's a lifestyle and I think that. I hope that everybody looks at this as as making sure that you know if we have to make changes in the way we live that we have to make those changes you know. It is about washing your hands and You know and taking care of yourself that way but it's also also health and wellness is taking care of yourself. Your body eating correctly working out staying active. We know that this virus is a smart one and you know to people that have respiratory issues or or other issues. It preys on that. So you know these people taking care of itself and that's why you know myself and Lindsay. We started the stain on our social media called Tub time when we talk to people take questions giving advice on things they can do to take care of themselves. Take care of their families You know to put themselves in the best position not only during this time to get through it but Through their lives in how to live the right way and give themselves the best opportunity of the best quality of life. Pk I'm lost your audio for a second year. I got it. Pk You've floated the idea of coming back from the self quarantine and social distancing of corona virus of covert nineteen with a League wide playoff. Can you get into that idea? Yeah well it was kind of floated around. I remember around the pause time when everything kind of shutdown I saw a few things on social media and I like that you know for my team specifically. We're pushing to make the playoffs down the stretch. So I would like to see our team have an opportunity to compete for the Stanley Cup. But obviously as days go by and this is just US talking sports now. I I you know. There's a lot of things going on that. Have to turn around. The season happen but If that did happen I'd love to see a thirty one team playoff and give those Pesky devils and opportunity at bringing the Stanley Cup back home to New Jersey so I'd love to see that. Pk just want to mention quickly. I also saw that. You are donating meals to the Montreal children's Hospital. That's absolutely wonderful and I applaud you for doing that We WanNa thank everyone on on the front lines there the medical staff but I wanNA have some fun for a moment. This is I take and you are a cowboys fan. Can we please pull up a picture of PK? And one of Stephen Hayes gear. I mentioned case a great follow on social media looking at this picture of you an uncle Jerry. Talking God's team PK. It's Kinda Gross. I'M NOT GONNA lie in my opinion that you're a cowboys fan. You're talking to a giants fan. You guys just signed Alden Smith though in all seriousness. Where are you on your team? You know you didn't give deck a long term contract. You Paid Amari Cooper. How close are you guys from actually winning a super bowl? Well first of all obviously sighting. Alden. I just love to see It's it's great to see. Someone turned their light Brown. And obviously with everything that he's been through to see the Dallas Cowboys and Jerry Jones. Give him an opportunity and you know we need a Asada linebacker so I like what the cowboys are doing. And as far as that goes You Know I. I hear a lot of conversation about Amari Cooper and his ability to play the position. I will tell you this With Dak Prescott. Dnr quarterback. I think he has the ability to make all of our weapons look a whole lot. Better Amari Cooper is a great player. But he's only going to look that much better having Dak Prescott throwing the ball and when Dax not throwing them the ball having Zeke. You know pounded in there. That's running back in the game. Stephen A I know we're on the same page. Baby let's go does T. Nice face. I'm wondering I suddenly. I'm wondering why the Hell you on this show. I'm wondering why even so fica this while you showed up to sit up to talk about hockey. You showed up to talk about the cowboys. I mean how pathetic does it get? You're supposed to care about winning. Just a postoperative. You're supposed to look at the United States of America the greatest country in the world. Okay and America's team that team the cowboys I mean you will contaminate yourself by the way. Why don't you just moved to Dallas? Would you move to California for nobody? There's no state income taxes in Dallas? How come you ain't living there? How come you live in their AK? I mean come on to better than that I think. Jerry Jones is one of the smartest minds in sports and he'll find a way to put the cowboys in the question has been tailing Solo. No question it's been twenty five years the question. Let's they get deck sign. I'm telling you I think Dak Prescott may stay. I know everybody's be. Everybody wants to see if I want to see decades eight. I love seeing at least get paid but I think he deserves it. The numbers there. I think that the chemistry nobody talks about the Evanston. He's got great chemistry with his option. I like I like the way the cowboys are the one or two players in my opinion the way being in the Super Bowl. So that's my take on first so you know what that means Max Max you player that. Pk awesome to the players. He'll call it per few. That's what it is. If the DALLAS COWBOYS PAT he'll call it perfume. Layers notes lanes there one or two players away. Bruce Smith and Lawrence Taylor who are these two flavors away from the super bowl peak? You were voted the third worst trash talker in the league. That's the Stephen was going right after mal even joined it. And that's the best you can do one or two players away. I'm being honest I. That's what I believe. I Dak Prescott top five best quarterbacks in the League he's GonNa show it this year. I think Zeke's GonNa have a strong year this year. I think he's going to run for well over a thousand yards. And that's just my take I think. Amari Cooper is one of the top five combined Blah cow as talking older appreciate you. I'M NOT GONNA lie locating our next guest right now. Do you see those palm trees in sunshine behind him. He did leave. Miami went to Pittsburgh and all he did show he's one of the best safety in the League dominate five interceptions in fourteen weeks fitzpatrick. Thank you so much for being with us this morning. We appreciate you. And that's where I wanNA start because Max brought this up earlier on the show Mingo. He said how the steelers Went A. You had a phenomenal season considering the fact that you lost your starting quarterback and you're backup big. Ben Is GonNa Return this year. But he's thirty eight. So what do you say to the haters? Who say big. Ben's best days are behind him. I think one if you know been You'll know that he's GonNa come back. He's GonNa be doing his best to come back better than he was before You know years older and it might take some time from the Have all the faith in the world that is in a comeback. He's GONNA come back strong. GonNa come back faster and come back leaner combat meaner and now. He's also he's a competitor. You know what I'm saying and He lost a year of of doing what he loves. So He's definitely gonNA come back with a chip on the shoulder and are ready to go out there and make plays and I'm excited by. His nose is going up against him in practice in seeing him on the field I know I'm going to become better from in He's going to be a whole lot for making. Thank you for being on the show. My question to you would be this. I know you look forward to this upcoming season in terms of getting your quarterback bat back but how about the season itself as a player and plays you talk to can you talk about the mindset. That y'all I haven't right now. In terms of possibility we're not hearing about the cancellation of the suspension of an NFL season. But we are hearing is about the possibility or you guys not playing in front of fans or potentially having a compromise season in that regard. Could you talk to us about what your thoughts are? Regards to all of that. I mean right now. We do stay in shape Just keep training and when we can however we can you know I got Nice Lucinda garage Some guys to do analogies run on the street So our doing this is trying to stay In his best shape as you can So that when we come back. We're not looking crazy with regards. Us playing without the fans or having to compromise the. Nfl has anything to us about that. But not as long as I'm playing football on on on fine. They don't have the fans in the in the in the in the bleachers. Or anything like that as long as I'm out there playing with my teammates and playing with my brother be happy. Shane and honestly I feel like it'll be a little more personal is nobody in the stands might be weird but Is definitely going to be a little more personal because this is as you other team so not all the competitors Come up Minka not only have I really if ever heard Nick Sabin. Rave about a player the way he raved about you but the steelers traded a first round. Picks your obviously your first round pick caliber player but what that really means. Is They have to pay you sooner than they'd have to pay the player and with the hard cap that's saying a lot. What are your so like the League? And then you go eight nate without a quarterback and it turned kind of tip the scales. You've got to Pittsburgh. What are your goals for yourself as a player with your career right now with my career right now they just keep you on every single year. I want to get better and better every single year. I want to just you know top but I did the patch thing. I'd grow grew a whole lot from my first year to my second year. Now I'm just going to continue Chart Grogan from second to third year Finds his personal goals for this year. I think No definitely do all pro first Definitely pro bowl again Definitely lead no in a DB and at least three four categories and You know I'm trying to compete for that offensive player during last year. Had A pretty good run at it and then you know towards the end seizing. Tim stopped on me and whatnot. So kind of stats. But I think next year we're GONNA have different types of system or just more people on field that they can't Choosing outdoor at me So definitely it will make more plays in consistently and are not just in Spertzel. So if you're going to compete for the defensive player of the year as well as the pro bowl in an all pro defensive player of the year get it. I like it a Minka. You talked about this upcoming season. You're no longer going to have to go through Tom. Brady with the Patriots in the AFC. I'm sure that has to be a relief but I wanted to get your thoughts on that news. What was your reaction when you heard after twenty years? He's leaving and heading to Tampa. Oh I wasn't surprised I think You know I think Tom is a is a competitor and I think he kind of just wanting to prove that Eager go somewhere else and do you know what I'm saying. He's a he's a he's a competitor he's one of the best or probably the best To do and I think he just wanted to prove to himself with To the fan base in the world that he could go somewhere with without the Great Cup without degrade defensive pictures had and said Simpson says you know. Make a when people talk about. Why the neighbor talking about Tom Brady and his Willingness to go elsewhere we there were some. Nfl FORMER NFL plays NFL Aficionados on the air literally saying he should go to the NFC. Because you don't want any parts of Patrick Mahomes. There Patrick Mahomes shouldn't still that level of intimidation in respect of opponents. Well last time I checked a quarterback ain't playing defense guys like you are so what does it? What is it like to have go against Patrick? Mahomes and do you believe there football players who say that are justified in saying that Patrick mahomes himself should instill fear in a lot of opponents in the National Football. League your assets. I will say this. I'm a grown man and I I prepared very very diligently What I do so I don't really fear anybody out there on the field but No there are some guys you've come across anxious to go player or He's a unique type layer and I could sit about practicing warm. You have to pay for things that you just not really you know. When he doesn't know low passes in crazy Saad on passes and his great weapons around him with Ric Edelman and everybody else out there. So I think No he's he's a great player He's a he's a unique type layer and obviously he gets results so You know paying for might be Might go in with a little bit more chip on your shoulder when going against the player like that but No I I think it's a little bit strange to say that out. Fear Going against another glare. Mika what you brought to the steelers was obvious. Last year you played for coach. No excuses no quarterback no backup quarterback whatever. The man is incapable apparently of having a losing season. Can you tell us a little bit about why that is? What is it like playing for Mike Tomlin? How is he able to make lemonade out of Lemons and always compete? Yeah I LOVE LAMP. Coast T- One because exactly what you said. I made lemonade Any bad situation Turner on his head in. Make you better than a one Away nobody else could She's transparent with his players honest with players and now he challenges no matter what you know what I'm saying like when we were Himself what Beginning SEASON. He was saying to us. You know it's four games in the season that we still have so much room to grow so much so much stuff to learn that we just got a whole bunch of new players in no. I barely knew the playbook out there. Make blazing Uses can be an honest with this kept telling US keep working on us to to keep doing what we're doing to better because it wasn't like we were getting along order. I think we lost one game like to the Patriots for I got there. That was the only game we just got beat bad but all other ones we lost by a by point to like we lost his Sanford. Larsen Sea Hawks and it will close games but He's just kept faith in us. He never bad talk us. You never told if you weren't good. Never told you weren't capable. All you told us was wherever needs to get better each holding out. We pick your better in challenges Saying that's GONNA play for stress. You when you start down like that play. This no bad talk. You Win some you. You're you're not that you WANNA play for that guy that is going to challenge you to get better with you while while you're going through that time and during the good times and make sure everything doing all respect for Mike Tomlin over here Minka. You had a tremendous season last year. Can't wait to see you this year. Hopefully things will resume when everything comes down with here with the krona virus pandemic stay safe and enjoy that sunshine while you can. We'll talk to you soon. Geico gets you access to licensed agents twenty four seven which means that. Geico is always there for you. If only everyone was always there for you like your wife when you forget your keys at work a on you get my texts. I am looking for the spare house key. Maybe I can get through. The window. Turns OUT THE ALARM WORKS. It works fast. You should probably call me back. Geico always there for you with savings and twenty four seven access to licensed agents as we all afford to April nineteenth. We've been looking back in Michael Jordan and the Bulls Dynasty. Mj play with arguably the greatest wingman and arguably the greatest coach Phil Jackson. Jay will joining us now and the conversation here. J. Great to have you with us. Stephen I'll start with you. Who is more important to? Mj Was Scotty. Or was it. Phil I'm going to tell you something right now. I'M GONNA Shock. Y'All it was Scottie. Pippen was not Phil Jackson. If you're asking about Kobe and Shaq then it's Phil Jackson because if you recall. Del Harris was the coach of the Los Angeles. Lakers making that. Unconscionable Decision J. Colby as a rookie to put him in that particular situation because he got todd. Kobe's mouth and Kobe shot those airballs. But then they went to a conference find any went to a semifinal then he got he got let go like twelve games into the season of a lockout shortened season. If I recall at the Phil Jackson came on and they want to three they went. They repeated Phil Jackson's first three years in La. It was clearly a coaching situation that existed in L. A. Desperately needed leadership in the case of the Chicago Bulls with Michael Jordan. If you recall Doug Collins was doing a hell of a job. Coaching the Chicago Bulls. He had taken to the conference finals. Phil Jackson was an assisted. Then he gets. Let Go Phil. Jackson takes over and once again. Phil. Jackson takes them to the conference finals. So the first year there he did the same thing. Doug Collins had done. As the coach his previous in the previous year Scotty Pippin with the migraine and all of this other stuff that transpired but ultimately they went through that first year under Phil Jackson and then after that they won the first three feet with Phil Jackson as their head coach. So to me it was the elevation of Scottie. Pippen it was the fact that Scottie Pippen stopped. I don't WanNa say scared or whatever but the bottle swag the toughness because a lot of times the bad boy. Pistons Soften Scottie. Pippen a little bit. It wasn't just the Jordan rules. They were all over Scotty pippin because they questioned his heart at the top you knew he had the ability but there was something missing but with Jordan. He ultimately elevated his level of toughness. He was a phenomenal defender. And Scottie Pippen's elevation is what elevated the Chicago Bulls to the champion that they were. Don't college to me. That Scottie. Pippen was winning. Titles with Jordan Doug Collins would have won the title. He would've coach at that particular moment. That's why Jordan. By you know with the wizards coach wants Jordan when Washington. You might be right Steven A. They met a woman with Doug Collins. Anyway because really they started Scottie. Pippen became a great player. That's when they started winning. But let's do this the other way. Let's look what happened when you took Jordan atty equation because here. We have a good experiment. Phil Jackson with Scottie. Pippen won fifty five games and only because of a bad call. Didn't get to at least the conference finals without Jordan. What would you have done without Pippen Phil Jackson? You gotTA figure at least one series farther. It doesn't if it's if you're up if you lose bag call your at least get in one season one level farther if not. You're winning the whole thing now. The other thing is who do you replace them with okay? You're saying well if you take Phil Jackson away you add Doug Collins. Very good coach. Scotty pippin away. Who are you replacing them with? You gotta replace them with good player. So we're really talking about the premium that pippen versus Phil Jackson. Give you over. Who's likely to replace them? And the bottom line is I think you're right. They could win without Phil Jackson. If they had tiffany everyone we got him to play together and everything but similarly I think they would have won without pippen provided you replace him with the Dunk Collins level for a coach player. I don't think you could say it was more than than film. A Smith you know basketball. I can't believe you will go on TV and say Scottie Pippen. You know eat. Managing Egos is the biggest thing. There is in this sport. Managing Ego Steven A. Now you gave dot com and some pats on the back and that's good but I know that we're you know we're elevating when people get to the conference finals championships matter championships matters. So let me give you three points on why. The answer is Phil Jackson. And it's easily Phil Jackson Number. One in one thousand nine hundred ninety one before they actually won their first championship. Doug Collins had Scottie Pippen playing at the four position Phil Jackson and changed him made him a guard made him a point. Guard to a degree facilitated. The offense and also utilizes defensive abilities with different matchups on the block. Like we're students at the Game Steven Naismith. You know there's number two. He also got Michael Jordan through this system tweaking the TEX winters system to believe in his teammates more than ever by passing the ball. That's when they actually won their first championship and last not least he manage. The EGOS OF SCOTTIE. Pippen Scottie. Pippen more than any other team Scottie. Pippen will be to outlive. He will be the man he got Scottie. Pippen to play second fiddle to the greatest player of all time and Michael Jordan too relaxed. Ego To win six championships. Six Championships managed goes is what you have to do. He's making the greatest coach of all do Jackson. He is one of the reasons more than SKYPE PIPPEN. But they won six championships. Stephen well let me say this to my producers Max Molly move out the way to producers. Leave me on this. 'cause this split screen with Jay Williams. Allow me to school you form. And former all American wouldn't award Jay Williams. If I recall correctly your birthday is in September correct is birthday September. Yes it is and where you were born in the year. Nineteen eighty one down with me. Let me let me finish. Let me finish. Don't you let me that would mean that? Wait a minute wait. A minute him appoint. Listen listen to me. You were a teenager my brother let me tell you something right now. Notice how did it take any credit away from the greatness of Phil Jackson as the coach of the Lakers? Because that very issue you talked about existed with the Lakers. There were no issues with Michael Jordan in terms of his ego. That particular year that Phil Jackson came aboard prior to that. When they didn't give him any help Michael Jordan thought he had to do it all by himself but as Scotty pippin elevated even though he elevated. He never thought he was. Mj The issue was elevating his level of toughness. Because of the competition in Boston ultimately with the Detroit Pistons as well because they were very physical with the horns in a lamb Biz and is it not his people. Jay talked to them. They will tell you what the issue was so it wasn't about coaching particular moment. There what I'm talking about the cats that actually went against Chicago who I spoke to. I know you know them. You can speak to them anytime you want to. They will tell you. As competitors against us a cargo both what was going on the issue was not coaching. Like it was with the Lakers. They was not that kind of leadership at initially. Initially it was about elevating Scottie. Pippen in terms of his level of toughness and his willingness to embrace that challenge which he ultimately did and became one of the top fifty players in the history of basketball. That's what it was about not like. You was with the Lakers. I know that Scottie. Pippen is a top fifty player in the game. I have picture right here behind me. I represent the game. Not Game Stephen A. Where would you consider? Phil Jackson Coaches King. That's where would you consider filter? If not number two red are back either one or two thank you. So so. In order for Scotty Pippin to elevate you don't think there were tweaks made that allow the environment for Scotty Pippin to rise to the occasion. You Don't think that coaching hassle with Managing Egos and creating the right tweaks within running. Which is the triangle system to have the ball in the hands of Scottie? Pippen even more to empower him even more to be leader twice Roy Dixon Jordan on the hallway. That's gone on stupidest. Says gone on Long Enough Steven A. The bottom line is who are you replacing Scottie? Pippen with replacing Phil Jackson winded another good coach and saying Jordan could have gotten it done. Who are you replacing Scottie? Pippen with doesn't have to be as good as Scotty pippin but you replace them with another all star Jordan still. It's the whole way better. Stay on what the Hell you saying. I don't understand what the hell because I'm just saying you made. The point is to give pippen credit. You have to be compared to who else would be playing with Jordan. What's the premium pippen's over a normal star that winning shorts? Yes that's false. You think too and without the mess without replacing Max. I'm trying to help you up trying to help you. You're embarrassing yourself. Because that's not what you have to do. What the quake opposites more more imported to Michael Jordan success. Which means that. You're taking the situation that we witnessed Chicago and says who deserves credit for Jason Pippen. Still Jackson it doesn't mean. Bring another way into the equation. Please wait from his basketball. Move Out to win. Kinetico brought to you by Scotty. Pippin you up. You know what I don't know I never know you're right about basketball. I actually totally totally on here. Here it is. Go Play Phil Jackson. If filled bags and can take a Scott led team to one bad coal from a conference. Finals and fifty five wins. What would he have done without? Pippen and Jordan led team Jay Williams to okay. I see what you're saying at all to a degree you MacKay just pretending. Go ahead Jack. All I'm saying to you Stephen. Is You know this? The environment has to be correct for the athlete to ascend. Especially when you're playing and I know you said all the problems were fixed but they weren't. Michael Jordan is still the most out of male we've ever met in the game of basketball. He will run over you. There are takes molding there are takes. Communication takes allow those times that Phil Jackson. They had it into Georgia. Who was they talked about it where he will build up the Eagle Scouts say credit back but still doesn't put out saying for. Mj MJ. Success Pippen deserve the I in firms in terms of M J success with those Chicago Bulls where it all started? With the elevations of Scottie. Pippen you WanNa give Phil Jackson Credit. I'm not taking it away from him. But this was not the Lakers situation that Phil inherited. This was an entirely different situation. And all required. What Scottie Pippen elevate more body was GONNA stop them? Quit Stephen Bill. Jackson have rights to the event have tweaks to try to offense that were built between texts winners and Bill Jackson due to the Bulls. Still win six championships. Do they still win being? You're right about without the tweets that system. No you're right about last. Jay Jackson tell but j were there. They were both there as assistant coaches when Nicole Dot. I could be on the verge of Dan big job. It doesn't mean I land a big job but don't mean I'm making Stephen Smith money. I make a Stephen Smith money on right there but I'm not over the high. That's what I'm saying. Doug Collins had them their bill. Jackson took them over the Hump. That's the difference. I don't understand. Actually this argument that he inherited the Lakers so he deserves more credit than that. Buddy was coach including an assistant coach the whole time. Pippen's there right any develops it so he deserves less credit there right you could go ahead and act like enjoy. Kellerman all you want to. You don't have a case you wouldn't even be you. You don't even have a nobody. Ours is certainly right. My goodness famers.

Phil Jackson Amari Cooper Scotty Pippin Stephen cowboys Pippen Scottie national football league Michael Jordan Dak Prescott Max Molly Antonio Brown Lakers Steven A. Football Doug Collins Dallas Jerry Jones United States Wayne Haskins executive
The Art of Value Driven Success

The Art of Charm

55:18 min | 1 year ago

The Art of Value Driven Success

"Welcome back to the artist charm. podcast to show where we bring you actual tips and strategies Oughta supercharge your social skills and turned small talk into smarttalk surrounding rounding yourself with an army of high status individuals to grow your social capital and unlock your head and charisma to crush it and business love and life now. Today is our values toolbox episode. Meaning we're going to share how Johnny and I came upon our core values but we thought it'd be fun to kick off the show with our company's core Values right Johnny absolutely number one. We always go above and beyond because we care about transformation and understand that. It's a lifelong journey we've Trudeau Schreuder authentic selves. The has being fake isn't our style. We create our own destiny because we don't believe in fate and we believe something magical happens when science meets creativity. That's because we leave those limiting beliefs and behaviors behind for a world of possibilities and suddenly everything starts to make sense now. Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise packing decades of research testing and of course tough lessons into concise curriculum each and every week. Well that's so we do here at the art of charm. I may Jay and I'm Johnny and not only have you been doing this podcast. Great Tips and proven social strategies and amazing guests. But if what you've learned on on the show helped you in your life. Imagine one of our tailored programs could do for you to learn more about these. Advanced social skills programs had over the artichoke dot com for more details and a sign up for our newsletter. And if you like this show don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends in our toolbox episode today we WanNa talk about living by your values. We all have goals especially since the year is still fresh and of course writing out. Those goals for the New Year is thing we all try to do now. We know goals are a great way. Eighty give direction and purpose but they also come with a bunch of problems that most people probably don't think about so what we want to cover. Today is the concept of values based living now. Don't worry you're not required to toss your goals out the window instead. Goals and values worked incredibly well together and they supplement each other in fact act. We just shared the values that guide the charm is a company and we'll also talk about our own personal values and why we picked them. So let's get started with the show if if you've been a fan of this show for a number of years. I am and paid attention to anything that Johnny and I said some of you even write us about all of the notes you've taken you've heard time and time again how important defining your values are value-based life leads to personal happiness mental health wellbeing and and a host of other things and one of the most common questions we get is. How do I choose my values and of course a lot of us us when we think about our values we look to mimic others? We look to take on values that we see around us but it can be a little overwhelming. At first. It can be difficult for you to really put pen to paper so our goal today is to talk about. Our values share the company values as well as our personal values and our journey discovering these values about ourselves and then we'll get an all the host of science behind why values matter so much I also just want to start off by saying that by understanding and learning values about values. My life had changed of how I was engaging in the day every day. You know it's funny. I've I've always said that we that we run on scripts and these scripts if you haven't meticulously put it together for yourself. You've adopted one that you've gotten from family. A friend's media wherever it might be and it wasn't specifically chosen for you. You just adopted decided to live by it and and your life will slowly become a result of that script when you change the guide rails to your life and meticulously put together the values that you feel best living through you'll see your life then the result of living through those values and of course today we're going to be talking about how whatever goals you choose how we can backwards engineer. What the values would be that? We would need to get there so that by living a value base life every day we get closer to the life worth fighting for to those goals and that's the thing when most of us think about planning out what we WANNA do figuring out our north star. The first thing we think about the tool we think about is goal. Okay set up a goal and now I work towards the goal and goals are very helpful. There's no doubt about it and as we talked about started this year setting some resolutions and goals for yourself. That's fantastic but there's also values on the other end of it and win your values align with your goals. You have essentially endless willpower. You have the ability to push through when times. Get tough when things aren't going your way when that goal feels further off into the distance. Well you mentioned about time getting tough. They're going to. That's just part of life. There's there's ups and downs Evan flow trauma loss this victory success. All these things are going to play a role and each one of these things and it goes back to something. Stephen Hayes has has talked about how our body works like a calculator does have no subtraction or delete. You can only enter things in then you have to compensate for what you've entered in so those losses and trauma and victories they're all gonna be crammed in there and you have to go about your life with those things adding up and it gets more and more difficult however by putting together those values you have something you can lean on every day to get you through that when everything else because of that trauma and loss seems to muddy the waters. It doesn't give you a clear picture which way you should be going so so in order to not have to worry about that you just push through and leaning into those values and they'll carry through whatever dark muddy waters are there our and this is not to get confused with value which is another topic. We've talked a lot about on the show values what we give to others. We define that as attention an appreciation and acceptance. But what we're talking about here. Is those core motivators in your life that you want to live your life by and these become become very clear and all of your decision making. I know we had a decision making month. Theme back in I believe August and decisions are complicated to begin with and if we're not clear on our values if we're not clear where we stand or what's worth fighting for. It's very easy to become indecisive. I also think in today's world we've sort of lost sight of of the railings. That hold us together. These values that we can lean on exactly what you were saying about when there's time to make difficult recall decisions if you don't have these values to lean on than the idea of being a principal person falls apart if you're don't have anything anything to lean on and you're not principled or there's no principle setup to lean on then you become very unwavered in in who you are you are and what you stand for. It makes the decision making incredibly difficult and it also makes the people around you uneasy because if they can't recognize patterns of principle within you where you stan whereas if you are wavering in your viewpoint and and unsure of yourself well of course that's GONNA lead to people not feeling at ease or comfortable around you and this brings up a good point. Why are we on a podcast? Ask dedicated to self improvement of course but really focusing on how we communicate with one another and build relationships in conversation. Why are we so concerned about values which are internal guess what these values influence who you spend your time with who you build relationships with who you seek out? Who's in your network? So they are important to define and for a lot of our younger. Listeners is an even our younger participants in our coaching programs. bootcamp especially picking those values for the first time we're thinking about. It can be a little bit daunting a little bit scary. I I don't really know what I value or you know what I have twenty things that I value. How do I pick the top five? We'll get into that but I want to talk a little bit about the problem with goals and goals alone because goals are all about something in the future. Their desired outcome values are more encompassing than that. Values are the deeper motivations. Ovation's that get you excited. They get you fired up when your goals spring from those values then magic really happens. 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Employers who post on Ziprecruiter get quality candidate within the first day Ziprecruiter hip recruiter. The smartest way to hire seaways Ziprecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes. Trust Ziprecruiter for free at Ziprecruiter dot com slash charm charm. When we're getting ready for the show we were talking with Michael about how excited we were to share our values because I think for a lot out of our listeners? They probably picked up on them here or there but I don't think they fully know what our values are when I was younger and I would hear about these things I I would brush them aside. Why because I was like I know my values are? I'm good. I HAVE VALUES A. I don't need I don't need to do the exercise however and we're GonNa talk about how to do this exercise but upon doing it this and this goes with anything when it comes to writing it out the ideas and the thoughts and the goals and aspirations that you might hold in your brain or just that their thoughts and there's not much way to them until they go to paper or until you've given them enough attention to where those thoughts have then turned to believes but even so they need to be actually articulated for you to understand what those beliefs are. This is why for a a lot of the guys the clients who come through our programs how they view the world coming in is different when they leave. Why why because? They had the opportunity to articulate to themselves some ideas that weren't ever fully fleshed out and because of that they were nebulous the proper filter or Lens. I like to call. It could never be completely built. But once it's articulated. Equated that Lens then comes to fruition and now you're solidly looking through it in your not swayed you're not influenced by things that take you off. Course that's the point. Value Base living is that it gives you a level of resilience because listen sometimes you're not gonna be able to achieve those goals. Sometimes it's not up up to you. There are other factors that go into those goals. And what happens when you don't achieve your goals. Are you set up for success. And that's really where the values come in you know. Studies show that very goal oriented people sometimes have a fragile sense of self. So that means is when all your focused. Augustan is external outcomes and factors in motivations win. Things don't align when you don't reach those goals your sense of self is going to collapse. It's GONNA crumble. It's going to lead to a lot of inner turmoil and stress but if your values are solid and clear even even missing a goal is not gonNA shake a rattle you because those goals are in alignment with those deeper values to throw it back to something our first guest of the year. Dr Judy Ho had brought up when she brought out her life acronym and the very first part of that was low self esteem shaky Shakey self and as you were just mentioning it. If you're focused on that and you don't have the steps that takes to get there. You can easily get knocked off course wars because there is no plan. It's okay for your values to change. You know when I think about starting this company thirteen years ago and Throwing Myself Alphand coaching. My values at that stage in my life were very much around proving other people wrong right so I had doubters ahead people who and we've talked about this family members even who didn't believe in what I was doing or the choices I was making and out of that some of my values we're actually unhealthy right when you're trying to prove it to someone else and your values are not anchored to yourself. Well all of a sudden you're gonNA find yourself between a rock and a hardplace and frustrated and I valued socialization to the extreme going out constantly because introverted. I was trying to work through that introversion. I was trying to gain all Lee skills to be a good coach and now that I'm in my thirties. I don't value that as much value. Going out and going crazy socializing as much as I did in my twenties and and that's fine. Well the goals of changed and so of the goals of changed then soda two steps in getting there. Yeah so I I WANNA point out that as we talk about our values and unpack our own. It has been a journey for us. There have been values that we tried. That didn't work for us. They'll get into and understanding that it's not set in stone or not carving carving out and stamping it on our tombstone saying these are your values for the rest of your life but values serve very important purpose in your life and this is something that I learn growing up being raised Roman Catholic. Obviously there are a lot of values instilled by the church and those values than lead to goals lead to the way we interact with one in another way. We treat one another. So that's what we're getting into today is how do we develop our own values that mattered us and now with all of the guests. Yes we've had over the last couple of years. We now realize that when we plug in those values with some great goals that willpower component that were struggling with the getting up the going out out the door to work out that shrinks. It doesn't have to be so difficult for us. If we only focus on the external one thing that I do I wanNA point out. Is that when were talking about values now important they are. It's not about discarding your goals now and saying oh I have no goals just live a life evaluate they go hand in hand. They're synergistic and they are important here. So how do we go about finding our values. Well when you think about values what do you stand for. How do you WanNa behave as a human? How do you want people to view you? What do you want to hear them? Say Behind your back back right. These are good starting points to start building those principles that you live by as John was saying earlier and we've talked about how important important is for companies to build out there said values set. Everyone on the team knows. Hey this action that I'm taking in line with our values. I feel good. I know that and moving the needle forward some those to go along with that we have a guest coming up. It's going to be in a few months. But then Kevin crews and he wrote a book called leaders don't or have rules and one of points in the book was just that leaders. Don't have rules that they live. They live by values and and he was talking about the importance of getting your team to rally around those values so that everyone is on the same field whereas if if we give people rules there's all sorts of objections of I don't like to live and rules. I'm a rebel or I don't like people telling me what to do or orders figuring out ways to tweak the rules to get one over on the rules to find the the loopholes exactly know those people as well. That's all there once. There's it was an I think there's just something innate in humans of wanting to break the rules but if you can get everyone to subscribe to the same aim values will now things are completely different and you may interpret them differently than the person sitting next to you but but there are still holding true to that same value is usually a mutual respect. That can go along with your approach to it. As long as you're still having that that same value when it comes to corporate culture and building this company we didn't start the values I mean we all came in jumped in start working with our own values. Set that we were bringing to the table and there was a lot of time. uh-huh in this company where. The values worn in alignment. We didn't put them to paper. We didn't commit to them and then we get frustrated because team members were not doing doing what we wanted them to do. But that comes from the top and someone who's run the company. I now realized not only importance of values in my own life but also the importance of instilling values in the team in the way that we want to treat our customers that we want to be seen the way that we want to be treated as well. Rules certainly doesn't work. People tend to thank that. You're trying to put them in a box when you hand them rules as well. I can even as as someone who sees himself as a creative the minute I hear roles I. That's my first thought because what if by creativity has be venturing outside. He's roles and now you're neutering me so to speak to be able to do what I do. However if were rallying around values that completely changes? Yeah and and let's say for instance evaluate loyalty right so a company's value is loyalty Wolfer. Johnny that might mean following up with customers who just came through in the last month for another team member. That might be sending a birthday message on facebook to cheer up our customer so even having a value of loyalty each person is going to respond to it differently. But it's a framework to start from so I would like to dig into my values and they've been a work in progress knocking ally and in talking a lot with amy Over the last six years of our relationship they've evolved over time but the one and I think we can all sort of pick up on this from the trajectory of the company the first and most important value to me is always always been delivered value. Sometimes to a fault right. We hear a lot on the show. The show is so dense you guys go into these topics. I want to learn more about you but I really have tried tried to surround myself with people who deliver value. Who who enriched the lives of everyone else around them we talk about value on the podcast enough and I also you want to be that person remember as that person that goes above and beyond in helping others and delivering that value to others will? That's why it's the first role in the company Germany or the first value in the company above and Beyond and understanding. That there are GonNa be times where it's difficult and there's been times when amy's been a little frustrated the but that commitment to going above and beyond has allowed us to build a team that not only supports one another but then supports everyone who comes through our doors and I've used the same in all of my personal relationships. I WANNA be there for my fiancee. I WANNA be there for my friends. I want to be there for my family. And when you think of that and the way it works for me it's the make sure that the listener of this podcast gets a lot out of it to for me. It is for the person who comes through. A program knows that we are there for their their journey. And we are going to be there when you sign up. NOPE WE'RE GONNA be there when you come through and of course all the systems that are in place for you when you leave and I continuously let the guys know the always here in one of the things that I say as I have time for for everybody. It's just a matter matter of me finding when that time is but if you let me know you have something you wanna discuss or an idea or a problem you text me you send me an email email and I will send out only invite we will figure out a time and listen. We've in the self development space for a long time for a decade and and when we started and we met a number of people doing coaching Social Skills Coaching Personal Development Coaching leadership coaching. And I've met coaches. Whose viewpoint is we start working together when the check clears and we stop working together when the seminar is over and that's how they live their life? We I have never as a company entertain that idea all of our alumni. Have our personal phone numbers. We talked to alumni who've come through the program nine ten eleven eleven years ago and I feel that not only. Is that in line with my value. It becomes very easy for me. It's not a willpower thing. It's not Oh my God I have to answer. I answer this person. Oh God I have to help this person out. It's in my ethos and of course as someone who's led the company it's infused into the company's ethos and it's one of the most important lessons that we try to teach all of our programs. Well I I think you could also say a lot for the people or the podcasters and the coaches that we enjoy you know when I think about the Pie. Kosters that both of us get a lot from We see that very that ethos. If you were that you use they use your words and their work and I and I've of course it's like well of course that's going to be an artist because that's who were modeling and it's interesting saying I get a lot of emails from people who are starting out in podcasting people are fans of the show and WanNa start podcasting and ask you know. How do we prep for the show? How do we deliver value in the content and you know we have three plus pages of notes science to back it up? We have multiple conversations about anything that we're talking about here recorded for you and that's been the case for over a decade now of putting in the prep to deliver the value and this is something that we do for free. This is not something. They were charging for so that delivering value is not only my own personal value. But I look for that value and others right and that's how I stay away from transactional relationships you know we. We laughed about this last week with violent about you know the types of people as you become someone who's an influencer flu answer grow an audience that you tend to attract and listen. There are a ton of transaction people out there but being someone who values delivering value for others. I look for that in others and I looked to lead my life by that. And that's really one of my core values and that was very hard for me to find so that owns been pretty pretty standard standard the second one and this one has led to some people. Even the company is led to change on the team. This is really a personal values. Keeping it real all being honest and transparent with how I'm feeling sometimes to a fault. Janis laughs that I wear my emotions on my sleeve but I think we both do that. I that's the Midwest and the same time I would rather be in a situation or an environment where people are being upfront with each other and I want that in my personal relationships I want that in my friendships and of course I want that in in my business partners and the people that I work with and it is challenging at times to be authentic. It is difficult to deliver bad news and for a long time in my life I tried to avoid conflict and avoid arguments and being a people pleaser. Sometimes being authentic is is not always the easiest road it can be difficult to be truthful in those situations. But what I've found is is that it allows me to say no to things that aren't helpful. It allows me to be more committed to the things that are the hell yes and it it allows other people around me to know where I stand the third value for me and trying to keep it straightforward with these five here the third just loyalty and I think that really was instilled by my family family's very connected and loyal to one. Another and loyalty growing up was very important value for my father and I picked up on his relationships in life. And of course because of that. I've lost some friends along the way I've had to make some difficult decisions around relationships we've talked about value vampires and people who you may not live up to that but loyalty is being supported by the people in your life and being true to the people who've been there for you Which is funny? You know you move to a big city. It's easy to get drawn into some of these other circles and people back home at least for me remark about how I've stayed true to myself and I try surround myself to do the same. That's always a welcoming picture to to have from somebody who's known you for such a long time and I know for myself that I really enjoy hearing I and it's not so often that east coast friends can make it out here but when they do I do try to spend quality time with them and that is certainly one of the things I love hearing. I don't WanNa hear this town has changed me however there you know there's other people to see the social media and they'll ask you know why are you talking about that why's that important now and it's easy to get caught up in some of that but ultimately yes trying to stay true to myself a true the people certainly back home. Support me on this journey. Not just the no fans johnny-come-latelies who get excited about the big numbers and what's going on. After of the ten plus years of hard work the fourth one and this one. We've talked about a lot on the show. In fact one of our favorite guests. Hammers is home. David Goggin it's discipline discipline in everything that you want in life. All the successor looking for is based on your habits and habits are built through discipline. There's there's no getting around it. There's no shortcuts. We've had what how many guests now talk about that exact thing whether it's getting up early whether it's always working out whether it's watching what you eat whether it's make sure you follow through with your meditation that Discipline Instills the successful habits that you need to reach the goals that you have and there are certainly times where I fall off. There's certainly times where I'm less disciplined than I would like. But it's an aspirational value. That I think is really important in my life. And that's one of the things that makes value-based living important and fun is that it's not. It's not something you just turn on and you begin doing. It takes effort and it takes consistent effort every day. However you do know what you're doing so all you have to do is go ahead? I didn't get to it but no one said it's going to be easy. No no orange. At No successful person has built their empire or achieve either they wanted on shortcuts and lack of discipline. Now this one the fifth and final value for me might feel a little opposite of the last last value right so the the last value disciplined straightforward the fifth and final value. For me is spontaneity. I do think that variety is the spice alive. Johnny Johny seen me learning how to cook and always trying to pick up new skills traveling exploring. I'm always looking for those moments. And what I found that so interesting is as you become more disciplined. You actually unlock more freedom. Yes it's counterintuitive and I. I know that we've had guests. Come on and talk about this but when you have those guardrails of discipline that you know you're not gonNA be out too late you're going to get things done in the morning. Then you can create that freedom in your life. I have to be spontaneous to try that spicy Thai food to go on that trip to zip out to Las Vegas for weekend for the hell of it that that is something that I value in myself. Is that ability to try new things to not be stuck in a Rut or routine and also to be more open and accepting of others and the spontaneity. One at times has has come in conflict with Amy's disciplined and it's been funny. Oh I've I've seen it. Yeah as someone who values it so much you know now about to marry someone who spontaneity is not a name the game right but it's fun to add that and it's it's also fun to see how amy's values have influenced me over time. Sure absolutely Giannino even sitting there somewhat quietly around your values in my values and I know that there's some overlap. There certainly is and I talk about these every week with the guys because I I can't expect them to put theirs out there. If I'm not willing to do that for myself certainly over the years they have changed but the ones that are important to me now. First and foremost we just. I'd take health out of the way and that to me is diet sleep exercise those three things all make up. That was not always the case someone who's lived with you. Oh gig scene when you went to sleep. Yeah and certainly I can still get better with some of those but I take those very very seriously because and this. I've stated this multiple times on. I'm going to stay again because this is important and this is why health is the first one. Because I I know what I need to do eating sleeping exercise wise to be at my best and when I'm at my best the longer I am in that zone of my best the better my life is and the better. My life is the better other people's lives are who are around me and so I go to myself and to those people because of that to be at my best and that takes care of that and that's number one and I don't think there's anything else I need to say to that other than that. Very yeah this is not a health fitness podcast. So we're gonNA stick things were experts. So so that's why I take that very seriously than the other ones that come in creativity is certainly one of them. I I WANNA I WANNA be able. And it's important for me to engage in things that that a allow me to create and be think creatively so whatever over. I need to be able to do those so reading film music these things allow those juices to flow and then from there I get to create eight myself and so I take that very seriously and I wanna be able to produce more than I consume and so that's very important to me. Yeah next is his humor and I have been saying this for a long time. Which is as an entrepreneur? I find humor one of the most important trades that one can have because of the the ups and the Roller Coaster that is entrepreneurship. And and you need to be able to laugh at yourself. And the circumstances that you're in order to make it to the other side It does does get dark at times. You do question yourself a lot at a time time and if you can't laugh about it it's going to be. It's going to be Graham and the purpose is the hope that pull you out but humor allows you to deal with the situation wire in it so there we got. We have health creativity humor. The last one used to be presence. But now it's moved more into mindfulness signed fullness as a as a whole because of for everything that's going on I need more opportunities to defuse thoughts from promotions. I think that helps with creativity. It also helps with humor to be able to compartmentalize things and see them for what they are. I think that that all plays a role so my fullness is certainly something I I'm working on and lastly ceases learning so which also fosters the creativity creativity in the humor are WANNA be able to learn every day now out of those five when I wake up. I'm excited because I know what I'm I'm I'm doing I'm doing every day and it's also great about this is looking at your daily St- calendar. Yeah and how you're going to arrange in engaging in those those those five values the other thing that we know about this is through our own research on. We have a challenge on facebook and part of that challenge. Oranges number two is to to put up your values. Yeah you can join our facebook group that at the challenge the art of charm dot com slash challenge and this this challenge. Orange is a fun one for a couple reasons number one. It's intimidating so a lot of people sign up for the challenge great. I'm going to work on my social skills and we hit them with what are your values and it's like Oh man I haven't thought about that or oh I wanna see your answers and it can be something that if you're not prepared for four might feel a little overwhelming but the flipside is when they complete the challenge. There's like the sense of relief. I'm like oh now I have clarity or as my buddy David calls it a North Star you have a guiding light a flashlight as to what direction you should be going in and the other thing about it that goes along with that that is most people can easily put two three. Maybe even four together but once you get the three and we realize that people had stopped at three because they still have this giant list of values. But there's only two spots in the dilemma becomes. I don't WanNa leave something something out. What does it mean that? You're leaving it out. These are just the things that are important that you need to engage in to a get ones that or one day closer to your goal and on top of that to have a sense of being fulfilled at the end of the day. That you've engaged in what is important to you and so the best thing about this is. Let's say that you've guessed wrong after one week. You stand on Sunday and you review your week Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday etc.. Were you able to engage in your values to the level that you wanted to if if you answered yes to all those and then did you feel fulfilled at the end of the evening. Pretty Good Week. Yes absolutely and if you've engaged in those the worrier fulfiled you've been incredibly productive. Your that week is going to blow your mind. which only sets up for you to do this again? Then why wouldn't you want to. You've just engaged and everything that gives you a sense of being purpose and superhuman productivity. We're all looking for everyone and so you're you're fired up but here's the best part. Let's say you're not. Let's say something was missing. Let's say that you know I could have even better. Okay then you either a have to think about as you set up the new week. What do you feel? You're lacking in and that you can engage in to a better degree or you change up Brennan the values that you fill just wasn't doing it for you and can you give that a shot and guess what after a week when you stand on the next Sunday and you're looking at your week you'll either a know exactly what you're going to be doing and fired up. Lay It out again or you'll know exactly what you need to do to shovel rally change. I mean this changes everything thing. Now you bring up some powerful points and this again is the distinction between goals so you can bring your values into anything you do. Yes you could bring. Your values is into the way you cook. You could bring your values into the way you do the chores. You could bring your values into your relationship with your friends. Goals are outcome dependent. They they are in the future so you can't live in your goals. You can work towards your goals but you can live in your values meaning your values how you can be present in every moment that you are awake you are alive. You are inaction and it's completely up to you to live your values yes you pick them you get the choice and then you get to instill them in others by the way you live of your life and guess what they're never checked off they're just that guiding light for you each and every day every morning to fire you up to get you through to not have to worry about the willpower. You know a lot of people spend their evenings before going into the staring at the ceiling winging going asking themselves what if and this is where you're in foam as what the kids call in fear of missing Al Fear of missing out you're staring at the wall in there. You have this in the. There's a feeling inside of I'm not living life the way everybody else is. And it's easy to get in that position when you're looking at social social media and everyone else's amazing lives however going to bed at late at night or whatever time maybe you don't have to go Abed experiencing foam. Oh and we have. We talked about this. You can flip the script and actually go to bed experiencing Jomo. Oh Joy missing out where you are. You're you're content you're fulfilled there's nothing left. No is not an issue the the no is not anxious. Or what am I missing out on the no is I'm clear on my values and that's my values rocked him Sousa Great Day which leads to a great week a month a year and as we said with goals always happening in the future we need our values is to keep us on course goals sometimes get met and I would love everyone perfectionist included to reach their goals. We know that's not always possible. So what happens when you don't reach your goals right. That's why these values are so important and Steven Hayes who have had on the show a number. The Times now said values work helps to build socially positive emotions like gratitude and appreciation. And the feeling that you're making a meaningful difference in the lives of others so it may feel self centered to decide your values to define your values but actually it's a service not not only to yourself but to the world around to the people you interact with when you are in alignment with your values you have these superpowers. You have the initiative the wherewithal with all the excitement. The joy everything that we're talking about so we want to end with. How do you find your values? It's been a journey for me and Johnny and I know that for example the loyalty value. How did that arise we'll growing up? My Dad was a single parent and he won custody city and what. I always found remarkable issues in the navy and his friends were scattered all over the country and he remained loyal to all all of his friends. All of their relationships and his friends remain loyal to him and they were there to support me and my sister when he needed to helping hand. And I'll never forget that value that he instilled in me staying loyal to the people in your life because at some point you're going to need each other and if you're not someone who's loyal you're going to be left without without having that support and that was a value that was instilled in me and I picked up. Discipline was not something that was instilled in me. I wouldn't say that my dad. It was very disciplined with his diet or working out or his habits. He was a hard worker and in order to make ends meet. He was forced to be disciplined for work. But it wasn't something that he really instilled in us and that led to my sister. Being creative led to me being being spontaneous but now it's something that I've picked up from others and truthfully the guests on the show have really inspired instilled that in me and as I started putting some things together. You're physically working on my health. All of a sudden I started to realize that yeah discipline actually unlocks this unseen potential in myself things that I didn't even imagine I could do. Do were now possible because I was getting up at the same time every morning because I was disciplined in my routine values giving you the a glimpse of what you're capable of is truly be a bit scary but it's also liberating because you're you're now being able to to really crack your true potential and it's been in. Its and that's what I love so if we were to tell you listening hey you come out and spend a week with us in L. A.. And we're going to define your values you'd be like doesn't sound like much fun. What the heck's that I want to learn how to talk to people? I want to build better relationships. I WANNA be able able to reach my goals and build allies and and while my boss why do I values. That doesn't sound like a valuable exercise to me. An interesting exercise the fun part. Is this Saturday. After the week is over and everyone in the week has started to crystallize around their values they've started really looked into themselves internally and define fine what these values are and how they want to live their life they are so fired up to go back home to live life through these values that it it unlocks that extra battery. That that super charger in your life. That allows you to stay motivated. So for those of you who are listening feeling rundown feeling you're lacking motivation and feeling everything's a struggle. Take some time to think about your values and going about your life in alignment with those values can start to recharge that battery battery something. I want to add to that if you do decide to do our challenge on facebook it's the The the electronic dot com slash challenge. Alan J- If you do decide to do it it has challenged number two where you're supposed to put up your valley's a lot of people just put their values up and they're like I'm done the name we want the next. I'm going to let you know that. Not only. Are you supposed to distill all these values down to five. I want the reasons and the how you got to them. Why did you choose them in? How did you get to that because having an understanding of how you arrive there and why it is so important? You only fuels inside you that much more but also gives you a a sense of its importance so it sticks much better and then also put it somewhere as a visual. Cue where you're going to be reminded head of it on a daily basis weather is so you can't forget them right so you can't forget them and Michael had has his or coach. Michael in Vienna has his is on his phone screen wallpaper and then also stick it on post it notes around your house because when you see it and you're like Oh right. It is those visual cues of those the values that will will lead you when you don't have answers. Let's do this week's challenge. Let's help the audience to find their values. Now we've learned how important they are are and what our values are never many ways to find your values we talked about it with Judy. Ho You can check out her book. She has a great exercise exercise. But here's a visualization exercise that we're going to do that. I think can help you with a few questions you can ask yourself at the end of this visualization so. Close Your eyes and imagine. Imagine that you've reached all of your goals that you could ever imagine here the richest the most successful the healthiest person on the entire planet. All of your wildest dreams goals goals have been reached and ask yourself. How do you want to be treated? How do you want to treat yourself? How do you want to treat others? What do you stand for in life so now? We've removed all those external factors. All the things were chasing the cars. The House the fancy this fancy that we've achieved those what's left the way that we treat others the way other treat us and what we stand for right. And what what you're aiming for. His Johnny said is key five or six. We're not asking for thirty. MM overwhelmed not help us here. You WanNa have it concise that it's easy to remember. And and the important part is after this visualization. Take Pen to paper. Write them out. Write out your values and right out. Why it's it's important to you and how you intend to bring this value to life? How do you intend to infuse this value into you? Your daily schedule your habits your routines your choices and this is a fascinating study that will end with the reason study done by emily. Sandoz windows an Emmy Herbert titled Meaningful Reminiscent and evocative initial examination of four methods of selecting ideographic values. Relevant Vince Stimuli. Found that by taking the time to write out our values can actually give you a huge boost towards implementing them successfully so the act of writing them out committing to them on paper thinking about the. Why actually really makes you more likely to succeed in achieving and implementing those values? That's powerful stuff so now that you have your values write them down and put them somewhere. You'll see frequently. Save them as your wallpaper like Michael and especially at the beginning. It's important that you're reminded minded of your values often as we start to try to build new habits and still some discipline in our lives. It's important that you reminded. Hey these are my values. This is what matters to to me. and his Johnny said in those days when he hasn't had an opportunity to tap into creativity or he's been bogged down in emails and he hasn't had an opportunity to quenches quenches. Thirst for knowledge. Listened to a podcast. Read a book whatever the case may be. That's a rough day. That's a tough day but when you realize it's part of your values well I'm GonNa make time for it and I can also say I know that when I do not engage in them at the end of the evening when I'm laying in bed I'm pissed off. I'm mad. I feel I left points on the board and at this point in my life and everything that we have going on around us. I don't like to have that it feeling that feeling is awful and you for working with me as long as you have as alliance Fan I know about leaving points on the board so eh special meaning for me. It's awful but I have recently arrange things in such way that certain things get done at certain times times where it's the values have infused your calendar. Yeah even fused your routine and so those things get met and an easily and consistently and that makes for a great evening and a and a an a grade sleep and it. Just when and with entrepreneurship things can get difficult. However I know that I'm always able to lean on those values even in the worst times? Go Wow now. I know that I'm doing the right thing. Why because engaged them? What's important and even the best of times it just on the town's right it's without values it's tough to stay grounded stuff to stay humble and and have humility so if you've enjoyed the episode and you're ready to define your values join join us on the challenge? It's a free facebook group with other podcasts. Fans Johnny in there and you can share your values commits your values as part of our social skills challenge. You can find more at the charm dot com slash challenge a quick shout out to one of our listeners. Melissa wrote thank you for your podcast. I discovered your podcast late eight last year and was immediately hooked and I got a lot of every show leading up to the new year. I found the habit toolbox and loved every moment. It really helped to start my twenty twenty journey. I've also since read James Clears Atomic Habits however I would not even in the right mindset to read this book or delve into the other resources without starting with your habit toolbox podcast thank you the AFC podcast team. You're making a difference for me and I'm sure many many others if you wanna get your habits gear like Melissa. Also check out our toolbox episode seven Thirty Three Building Habits that stick. I can say that episode was very impactful. And we're still hearing about it. I love it. I hope everyone's working other habits in the New Year and we have a challenge for you our challenge. This week is for you to delve into your values write. Write them down. Put them somewhere that you'll see them. Frequently your bathroom mirror a post it note on your monitor. In fact we know Michael Likes to keep his on his lock screen of his phone own especially at the beginning. It's important that you're reminded of your values often. It's easy to do the exercise once and then forget all about them so as you go throughout throughout your day of doing your various tasks ask yourself. Which one of my values can I bring into this right now? So let us know. We're always excited to hear from you. All you can send and as your thoughts by going to the artichoke dot com slash questions or emails questions at the artist charm dot com or find us at social media at the art of charm on on facebook instagram and twitter. If you're new the show like Melissa and you want to know more about what we teach here at the order charm check out our toolbox episodes at the art of charm dot com slash toolbox. That's where you'll get the fundamentals of networking persuasion and influence such as body language. I contact vocal tonality and a bunch more and don't don't forget to check out our challenge. The charm dot com slash challenge for our free social skills challenge. The challenge is all about improving your networking and connection skills and inspiring. Doing those around you to develop a personal and professional relationship with you. It's free it's Unisex and it's a great way to get the ball rolling get some forward momentum and we'll also send and you are fundamentals toolbox that I mentioned earlier in the show which includes great practical stuff ready to apply right away. This will make you a better an actor a better networker and a better thinker. That's at the art of charm dot com slash challenge. Also could you do us the entire team a big favor. Could you go on unable to teens. And rate this podcast. Leave us a review. It would really mean the world uh us and it would help others find the show. The arbitron podcast is produced by Michael Herald and Eric Montgomery and engineered by SAM J and Bradley Denim a cast media studios in sunny downtown Hollywood until next week. I'm AJ. And I'm Johnny

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Hour 2: Proving Ground

First Take

41:59 min | 1 year ago

Hour 2: Proving Ground

"Good baseball is boring. How about that wildcard game last night excitement for days. People nationals rally to beat the brewers the worst four threes Stephen. How good is this for baseball. This is great for baseball. I think baseball needed this. Just the environment I watch this game Max from start to finish outdoor shirts who was gassed. Just after five minutes I mean grandchild hit homers. His first at bat almost hit a home in his second at Bat almost MAC that Koerbel out of there wasn't able to get it. He do about seventy seven seven pitches through five and is he looked completely gas. They were out of it down three one. You know the history close out games three game fives on their home. Turf couldn't close now. This was a one game playoff series and this twenty year old kid with the bases loaded after Zimmer came up in there right the bloop single loaded the faces this twenty year old kid right smack that single and then I feel so bad for Grisham that ball what happened is I think it was a weird bounds like he because he was on it though somebody out to prevent getting old but I think the ball like curve doesn't matter what matters exactly because his era basically gave go ahead John so I feel really really bad about it but the crowd you gotta give them props over forty. One thousand people showed up. It was absolutely rocket. I knew a couple of the people who were at the game last night. It was absolute pandemonium. That was good for people to see at a baseball game because that's what we have not been getting. Obviously the attended attended as Major League Baseball has flagged a little bit the millennials the younger generation have catered ingratiate themselves towards football and basketball baseball's also got to do something to fix it last night as a reminder that America's national past is not dead there are things that you can do to improve it in ingratiate yourself with the younger generation but when it last night goes a long way towards reminding you how great baseball can a B because I ain't GonNa lie to you. I wish I was at that game last night. It was special to watch last night was a reminder of October baseball. Yes I mean look the economy of Major League Baseball second only to the NFL and one of the issues that baseball. I'm a baseball fan. It was my first love as a team sport right but I acknowledged for some reason. Soccer fans can't do do this. Basketball and football are just intrinsically superior sports too baseball and soccer better and they are replacing them. They've already displaced. Football has in this country baseball. Baseball and basketball is displacing soccer around the world. His popularity is growing relative to soccer right because they're both better so I'm not going to argue the baseball's intrinsically better. I love the most 'cause I grew up with it but we don't talk about it nationally why mainly an inventory issue supply and demand. There's an oversupply of baseball right to reduce social so when you talk about attendance decline in fact it's way bigger than NFL or NBA attendance well of course because there are so many more games. That's ridiculous same same thing with the rating. If there's so many more games the importance of each game is diluted. So of course the rating for each game is going to be lower but what October baseball does is get rid of that problem problem because every single game is meaningful. Now check this out that game last night tremendous fantastic great game dramatic ending ending the whole thing. That's not going to be the best game of this postseason not at all. It may not be a top three. Maybe ninety five this season so it serves as a reminder finder of October. Baseball baseball is great win. The Games means something I want to piggyback off of your point because you make a very very valid point so wrong a week here and we got a couple the maximum let me you right now. National television fix baseball the schedule that you have in the postseason find a way to duplicate that during the regular the season take one hundred and sixty two games cut it down to one forty five one forty. Give a gap in the week. You Know How baseball my have you know you might have a game one or two right and then game three three days later dude that during the regular season give these gossip. Tom Give folks an opportunity to actually missed the games and look forward to make sure you have some doubleheaders on weekends and then weekdays off. You know what the problem with this. Why not what's interesting during his baseball is a very local sport right partly because the inventory there's so much you can't follow every team right so if you're in the NBA and nfl you care about the good teams from other markets Major League baseball much less so part of that's because the local rights packages look the owners get from their own. TV packages are so lucrative. That's driving the players salaries up so the players like it owners. Reap the beverage. So what's the remedy Max. What's the because I know you got one. I think a strong commissioner has to come come in and say that our our long-term interests are not the same as our short-term interest okay. What you're talking about is exactly right. We have to cut back on some of this inventories win order during the week to week the Astros or the favorites to win the world series followed by the dodgers and the Yankees Stephen a get get to the good stuff. Who Do you think Winston. This makes me sick to my stomach. 'cause we know. Max is not the only diehard Yankee Fan on this show. Everybody knows I'm a Yankee Fan all aw my life from the days of Greg Nettles Chris Chambliss and Mickey rivers and Willie Ratatouille why these boys Roy Rog injury yeah. Let me say this. I I can't see anybody beating the Houston Astros I would. I'm going to sit there and tell you that. I hope the dodgers lose prior to work because I want to third world. She was in a row. I'm not a believe in Johnston. I like them a lot but I'm just not a believing him as the closer for the dodgers. I think that's the weak link the Yankees this setup men leading. It's all chapman one could argue that's formidable but their rotation the suspect. I mean with Berlanda cold with the rotation that exists in Houston. I can't see anybody beating the Huston Astros this year I I would. I hope to God that the Yankees find a way to knock him off but I can't bet my money that the Houston rock the Houston Astros are going to lose lose to the New York Yankees. I think the Yankees would be anybody else but Houston. The problem is Houston will be there waiting for them and that is my concern by the way I have almost identical the analysis here. I'm rooting for the Yankees Yankees. Of course they have a great bullpen. They can knock the cover off the wall ridiculous. How good that lineup is the dodgers. Are Extremely we well run. They are a powerhouse but the starting I know the game has changed five. You got great bullpens. That's an advantage but the top of the rotation starters for the Astros Astros I think are the difference in a short series on fortunately enough dodgers haven't won it since nineteen eighty eight. Hey I'm only Carolyn. 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CINTAS is a proud fortune five hundred company that is involved in over four hundred charitable causes and community events. Get CINTAS and get your business on-track. Mom I think star found adequate Kerr. I know it is just very lifelike. Then what is it head keeps spinning scary the really scary mixing GEICO's easy to use mobile APP. You can manage your diko policy. Whenever looks doll yeah we can just bury it deep in the ground the Geico we download the industry-leading Geico app today what's going on. Welcome back to their stake where coming to you live from above the Heineken River deck here at Pier Seventeen in New York Ryan Clark back here with us. Sundays is going to be a good time. FELLAS packers. Cowboys Dak Prescott trying to get paid and Aaron Rodgers unders trying to prove he's still that dude both coming off losses in their last game Stephen A. Who Do you think has more to prove this Sunday at Jerry's world between back doc or Aaron Rodgers member people are saying carried by his defense trying to question L. Canal Rick and I do understand that some people might feel differently than I do right. Dan this time because they're looking they're looking at Aaron Rodgers and the Green Bay a pack is fresh off a loss to the Philadelphia Joey and then what what have you. You're saying no excuse me Dallas. Is the better team at Raj got new head coach rookie. He's got some things to prove please what he had at Aaron. Rodgers will figure it out working with first year. Head coach is trying to get his money. Arabs a-rod got his his two million dollars right now. I'm in Carson Wentz in the never played in a playoff game. Hundreds of a million dollars guaranteed kirk cousins. NFC No got twenty eight million guaranteed all right Matt Ryan Losing Games left to right with Ridley. It's a new and Julio Jokes. Make It thirty million you okay Matthew Staff. They WANNA play the game and his dad okay. This do make twenty seven million dollars that Prescott making two million dollars wall got fifty million guaranteed all right. Let's Collins this money. Jalen got his money but that Prescott quarterback for America's not get out of dollars and oh by the way you reel game of the year against New Orleans and you Got Hilton Ten points and you look to bridgewater and then that you've got a whole game against Amer Rogers and Rogers because the one that got what world we all living. It ain't gotta stack that gotta show that trying to get paid runs already got his has plenty to prove this year but not more than we agree about this. This Dak Prescott has more improved than Aaron Rodgers because we know even if there's decline in Aaron Rodgers if there's some regression due to age or whatever he's got gotta get used to a new head coach a new system we know exposed against the eagles a little bit they can't run the ball and stop the run as well as we thought so it's kind of the same old situation for Rogers. He has to elevate the team around him. If they want to win the Super Bowl that doesn't elevate the team around him that has to play up to the team around him right and he did dad against three bad teams and the first time they faced a good team they lost so that really has more on the line here yes to show that he's actually actually wasn't a mirage those first three games even against better opposition. He can take that step forward as an actual elite quarterback you're wrong. It's not the the era. Rogers has nothing to prove but in this case has more to prove the Rogers listen. I understand why you guys would say that because it is about candidate. Prescott go out and get his money right. He was only making two million all those other quarterbacks that Steven mentioned and also you look at this week now Jerry Jones coming out and saying you can't blame it on kill him more well. WHY CAN'T WE'VE FOR THREE WEEKS. He got all the praise for how well deck is playing but it's Aaron Rodgers and here's the reason when they start questioning. Eh Rogers who I believe for the longest time was the the best quarterback to actually ever play the game home show so Mahomes soda the Arrows was the best to ever play now. We're questioning you. Are you being carried by the defense. Do you manage games. You know when we talk about his gay. Managers guys like Kirk cousins. Kirk cousins is a game manager and so that's like saying you know what Kobe Bryant. We're GONNA compare appear you to smooch. Parker do not man Kobe Bryant would be about that and that's what every Raja just facing now and then you go into last week where he has to throw the ball where this green bay a packer team turned into the Mike McCarthy Green Bay packers okay Aaron Rodgers. You get us to the promised land over four hundred yards. devante Adams goes off but when it's when it's it's crunch time when it's time to make a play he has three. I on one plate. He hasn't done interception late in the game. He hasn't done the interception in that type of position. He hasn't hasn't done an interception. The ended the game for the team in that way and so now you're Aaron Rodgers and you are no longer the guy that we are looking at as the baddest man about at though Aaron Rodgers threw catchable balls. They were makeable plays for his offense now. They weren't the normal that is perfect. That's Lord dime but that's my point. He has to be perfect now to elevate the team. Do you think those were actually bad. Throw no no. I'm not saying that they we were bad throws but if you watch Aaron Rodgers their throws that he we have seen him make in his sleep that he is not making any more. There are throws in times in the pocket. I see him. Let a ball go looking at a wide receiver. I know I know that's complete arrows air meals it. That's not the things we are used to seeing him. Dak Prescott. I got four as unfortunate as it is. We have put him in the box and I don't know Dak Prescott ever elevates out of their box when you look at him in the first three games we made all all the excuses as to why dead. Prescott wasn't that dude who helped him beat Aaron Rodgers is now at a point where we're going to start talking about him as a dude who never changed. I four potential if he doesn't win this. I'm going to get all your money. I'm GONNA get on. I am sick and tired of you the critical and disrespectful to amherst rogers that's been going on long enough and I had had enough that you unclogged coveted offensive Aaron Rodgers. Let me tell you something right now. Two years ago didn't Aaron Rodgers get his collarbone broken by Anthony Ball from Minnesota and Mr Rest of that season then he comes back lash. It didn't three or four games into the season. He get hurt again to the living. I'm talking about. He was really really bad holes in the point where we had a debate as to whether or not he should be out there because he had been hurt. Nobody brings that up when they talk about Amer. RAJAS would a rookie head coach right now would Davante Adams not much Toronto. Alison doesn't doesn't look the same right now a scant link. He's got skills but people have been talking to denote running game. I'm just saying the brother for the last. Two years has not been healthy. This is the first time in two years Amer Rogers has been held season. A new system with a new rookie came abrasive visit love era. We give them a break all Greek cama great. Excuse me so now all of a sudden surgeries air hurry. I'm Eric your show on this show. I'm a talk that is to you our guest because I use that all the top to the point. The point Cam hasn't has and then and when Rogers as taught throw of the football bits at the super bowl and assume they're going down this argument by his either. I don't need his help but I appreciate it. The whack Nevada is never ever I ever has in because nobody says you can't change criteria where you wanted to no no no no. I'm saying that the criteria is not applicable to Amerada when it comes to because we know he could do it but he will not do not doing it as well as he ever has right. Well J for both of you about this because this is really what it comes down to blasphemy Aaron. Rodgers is the best I ever saw you too you too until Patrick Mahomes came around. Maybe he's elevated password. Aaron Rodgers has ever been you know is Aaron Rodgers. Do you believe still other than mahomes the most talented in the best in the NFL. Do you believe that right now i. I don't believe he's playing. This moment. Key is but I don't know and that's why there's something to prove. Here's the next question Dak Prescott. Do we believe he has taken a step forward from clutch gain manager to actual elite quarterback yes or no no no not yet. I think he's I don't forget. There's more to prove approval. Here's my point back to you amber. Nobody's in Amer Rogers doesn't have something to prove what we're saying is does it eclipse. Dak Prescott approve because we're three weeks no matter what Dak Prescott did we did and elevate him to elite status. Last year was true. Oh it's not true people talk about. How did this so so even when we were talking about? Cam Newton Cam Newton was the MVP. There wasn't a time that season where you were saying Cam Newton. It's better to Tom Brady. You weren't saying Cam Newton. It's better to Aaron Rodgers so just being in the conversation for MVP is about the numbers you put up during next season and the teams and your team's success. That's a different but because there were years Rogers wasn't in. I don't know before going to help him. A little bit. I'm saying Stephen. He was saying that was only playing bad teams when he was putting my. I don't WanNa talk about the giants candidate I did that. All I'm saying is Toby Amerada. Hess up to the season but this week in Dallas Mortar Puna Dak Dak Prescott and that is not Sarraj longer and went and asked go hand Luke Air. I have to do that. Briscoe team could listen the reads it. How about that. How about we revisited Jabber. That's how I don't WanNa say this is checkmate but this is a major problem for the NC two a day. When you put pen to paper right now what's going to change and what's IT GONNA do. It's going to initiate dozens ends of other states introduced similar legislation and it's going to change college sports for the better by having now the interest finally of the athletes lights on par with the interest of the institutions now. We're rebalancing that power arrangement well. Let's do it. Let's do all right and maybe the story of the week has been the fair pay hey to play act signed into law in California Monday here to offer his thoughts are called Football Guru Paul Finebaum always good to have you with us all right guys. Let's get right to it so Ohio State Athletic Director Director Jean Smith is one of the latest to speak out against the bill saying my concern with the California bill which is all the way wide open with monetize. Your name in your likeness is it moves slightly towards pay for play and it's very difficult for us the practitioners in this space to figure out how do you regulate it. How do you ensure that unscrupulous. Bad Actors do not enter that space and ultimately create an unlevel playing field one of our principals try to create rules and regulations to try and achieve achieve fair play call the floor is yours. I well first of all I mean Jean. Smith's comments are beyond ridiculous. A AH bad actors is he talking about. It's the same guy that manages the Urban Meyer situation last year so on his credibility is pretty low with me this. This is really simple molly. Everyone's trying to make a complicated. It's not pay for play mark. Emerton Gene Smith and his gang of bad actors are trying to make it out to be it's simple lightness. Let let let an athlete profit which by the way is not against the law in any state in this country it's just against the NCWA away by laws and and in the end the NCW has ruled college athletics in dictatorial fashion for very long. They've been they've done it. In conjunction with the Five Families Godfather reference there goes to you and it's about time that young people who participate are able to simply profit off their own name and likeness you know what Max go ahead I because I'm going to say something up to now going to be very very controversial so you go ahead and you will start Max because I'm GonNa pay to play act as a misleading name name. It's not they're not getting paid. It's still amateur. It's just off. The field of play can profit because you know on their likeness. They can sign an autograph. I mean this is such baby stuff. It's so good should've never been against the rules in the first place and now the NCAA bylaws are going to be illegal in the state of California the idea like I mentioned this yesterday in one of my daughters schools that curriculum night. They showed us how they teach kids because the Internet can be a dangerous place for kids. How do you understand where you're getting misinformation disinformation propaganda from what you're getting good information at one of the questions since they tell the kids to ask is if. I believe what they're selling me here. Who Benefits from this right? That can be an indication when you hear someone like this an the number yesterday when you hear that what they're really saying is it won't be perfect. The perfect is the enemy of the good. It's better than what you've got now. Hijack the narrative the idea that well they'll be bad actors. There are bad actors now. What are you talking about college. That's the best point it's such uh-huh propaganda nonsense this is easy the NCAA. Maybe doesn't have to exist. Maybe they never really did they need to get with the Times Times what their by laws will now be illegal in the state of California. They should have always been illegal. How dare they tele kid in his private time with how how he can make money as long as he's not breaking the law. She's not breaking the law. It's absurd these comments or absurd on their face just as Emirates word the couple of days ago. I one thousand percent agree with every word. Did you just say as well as yourself but a hit me a little bit differently listening listening to the Ohio State Mr Smith speak. He should be ashamed of himself. I am a black man. He is a black man. You know couldn't damn well that these rules rules and regulations that have been labelled dictatorial the primary complaints have been African Americans because the sport what a Football College football and college basketball are the two revenue generating sport and to know this because as an athletic director. Oh you are in a position to know this better than most a you know specifically the lives that are affected and have been affected by the institution of the NC Z. double. A you know good damn well what kind of effect this has had and how many thousands if not more African American lives lives have been impacted by the dictatorial practices re just right with the block recy- this been going on for decades. I and I'm sitting there thinking about it and I got a question albeit rhetorical somewhat did the NC double. A. Handpicked you to come out with a the statement. Did you do that of your own volition. Did you ignore your own people. In this suffering all of these years did you you sit up there and sell out by echoing the sentiments their market and everybody associated with the NCWA would love for you to blow the eight and disseminate out to the masses. What the Hell is that statement about. What are you talking about this inches closer toward pay for plane when everybody knows the NC double A. Making over a billion dollars March madness alone and for years was making money before the F. B. S. came in to you know to exist it. You got the power five conferences that may not be you but it's still underarm Birla from the perspective of you being able to have purview over them where you can exact punishment and beyond if NCWA rules are broken. You are athletic director a black man knowing the lives that have been impacted by these rules. The restrict is inhibiting prohibiting people who are disenfranchised poor looking for ways to earn an honest living and you're gonNA talk and talk about this is something wrong is the all you can think about is what potential troubled it because. I remember Mexico of you remember this Greg Anthony Our former colleague here at ESPN who now works works NBA TV at TNT he had a scholarship UNLV. He bypassed it. He said you know what you know He. He's a businessman and he started. There's all business that I don't need your money. 'cause I don't need you restricting my earning potential. That's where it really what this is about. Is Everybody here due to athletes light. That's that's right and it's great and I'll bring up. Dan wetzel point again. Jay Bilas tweeted a link to it yesterday to show you how disingenuous ingenuous so many of these arguments are an made this argument. What's going to happen to the Olympic sports because they're funded by these kids. You're talking about for example Stanford with a twenty five billion billion dollar endowment. What they're saying is really the universities is we don't care enough about the Olympic sports. Let athletes from other sports many of whom you just described to fall into that category category let them fund the Olympic sports because we don't care enough about it. It's an outrage. I thought I thought it was beautiful and I wonder Stephen a young people. Watch this programming and listen to you whether those young people are going to listen to what he said yesterday in Columbus Go. You know what I don't know if I feel comfortable. I don't know if I WANNA go to school like that and I'm not singling them out although I am singling them out because he's the person says but I if you're coach comes out and doesn't support this. I think it could have a deleterious effect on your school. I think this issue is that important. That's right dad important and he will go out there and just speak about the inconvenience surcharge. Any people like so many laws in effect wanted to get paid tomorrow. This isn't even till twenty this shamed quick football topic all right so what are the other big story lines over the weekend with. Clemson falling to second in the AP poll after surviving at North Carolina wanted to ask you. Where do you think they should be ranked right. I would put them five or six somewhere in there because if you're looking at this objectively which we we hope this committee will in five weeks they will look at the body of work. How many times you hear that body of work. We don't know about next week but we've seen this week they haven't done anything you think they haven't played a decent school they nearly lost a UNC which lost the week before to Appalachian State Law Sleep before that the wake forest Stephen Hayes rubbed off on the year and their best win against Texas am touchdown question for you. I do have a question I I bought. We may have to go right into sportscenter. We we argued about this yesterday. When when Notre Dame lost is to Clemson got annihilated in the college football players you you talked about the quality competition. Notre Dame was not remember that but when Notre Dame play Georgia they were very very competitive and is a folks that clips they will look at that and say excuse me that's the that's relatively the same Notre Dame squad. What would you say today. Steve Aid the biggest beef with Notre Dame. They don't play conference championship game. We're we're Georgia did loss and gets knocked out it was between Georgia and the Notre Dame and Oklahoma and but this year and I know it all much time for but we could talk about this for the next eight ten eight ten weeks. You're going down to Clemson next week it but if the season ended today which doesn't clemson would be left out on my list and Stephen yesterday and we had this conversation you were trying to tell tell me we'll look at all the they've done. I don't care what they have done. In the past I don't care that they have a twenty game winning streak or two hundred game winning streak belong right now and that's all we're talking about. We're talking about four here so when you go down to South Carolina going down you get with my best. You know trump he he said show down there. I don't know somebody way about my pay grade or you're not you're bliss needs to sign off on that because they would be the only time that Stephen as ever been with someone. The other person needed more security than he did. I know what I'm GonNa work on. I'M GONNA try to get down to Clemson next week. I am concerned about Tom. Brady the fact of the matter is he was not his usual self last season and he's one hundred and fifty thousand years old then then he doesn't practice during the week he says hey. I'm not a spring chicken anymore. goes out gets beaten up by the bills defense. They were kind of lucky to win the game and if you notice what's happening now now he came in game manager great defense with Valla chick turns into Tom. Brady can carry the offense. You don't have to worry as much about the defense we're back to. The defense has to carry every Tom Brady. That's what we're and he's a game manager. It's not the same okay hello everyone that was Max Kellerman into my left yesterday calling the goat. Tom Brady a game manager on that note. We bring in our Guy Marcus spears. We Marcus good all good head. I want to start with you here. Do you think Max has a point. Yes guy say it and look here. Here's is the issue. The roles change Max's been preaching about Tom. Brady fallen off a cliff and Tom. Brady is a game manager the greatest thing and the greatest greatest quality about not only the New England patriots but Tom Brady is that they transform to what they need to be so to the point of what he said about the bills bills a couple of games last year. I can honestly agree and say he was a gay manager in those times but tha call him overall game manager knows no. Tom Brady is going to have four hundred passing games. He's GonNa have moments during this season where he has put a drive together at the two minute at the end of a game to win for New England. That's support of playing in the price of doing business in this league so to put him as overall game manager. I don't agree but here recently especially in the Buffalo Oh bill game and and even Tom alluded to the fact that he said I just didn't have to lose it for us because our defense was playing so great so particular situations relations. Max Kellerman is right but overall. Tom Brady is not a game manager and never will be until he retires from this league he was when he entered the leak. Take like Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott. He was a guy who was a gay manager which is not a dirty word big on for you is cool under pressure. I I mean that's the kind of quarterback you want. Most teams want less. You can get Patrick Mahomes. The point is that Brady entered the league that way and in the League of finite resources courses of course you want to be as good as you can be all areas but you gotta funnel resources one way. If you look at how Belichick who's not only greatest coach ever. He's also the greatest. GM funnel resources and the Patriots funneled resources back then it was to the defense and Tom Brady was a clutch day managing quarterback at the beginning of his career with a great defense and then he became the goat and he can carry your offense and you didn't need to devote as much as many resources to the defense and now Belichick is recognized. I gotTA start. You're doing that again and LO and behold. The Patriots tried out in elite defense. That helped carry Tom Brady. Let me say this before you go. He's ahead of where Peyton manning manning was at the end and won a super bowl being a game manager at the end Brady's ahead of that but to say he's not a game manager now even last achier his stats had fallen way off not just from the previous season but for many seasons and that happened in the European passing compared to what his status paid talk of what because he didn't fifty touchdowns patrimony. He threw for four thousand yours twenty nine he didn't. He didn't have to Max look the Games a day. Manager does not put together game winning drives in gains. They don't day managers. Hold the fort until another phase of the team makes a play. Do you talk about a game. Manager is a guy that has never been some anonymous with being the greatest ever since we've heard from you we've heard enough from Max because you're not going to sit up on national television and all of a sudden say gay marriage is not a dirty word. We've been saying manages the dirty work for three. You knew that you've been doing that then. You Ain't doing that today. The fact that the Madison Call Tom Brady. Here's the reality of the situation. We noticed that Tom Brady doesn't have a run a game. How we noticed that Michelle is average and less than three yards carrying that we noticed that although he hasn't been one hundred percent healthy that Gronkowski is retired then Antonio Brown's Talk Radio listened to think about. I'm GONNA say this. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa say this on national television markets because I think this is necessary. We talked about molly appreciate where I'm about to come and Mexico small when I break like this part down who Tom Brady marriage doesn't beautiful beautiful family. Nobody has brought this up and I understand that he found out later but he sorta way Antonio Brown was acting and invited him into his home and then after he found now what I found out he's still at Speaker get Tonio browns and still wanted him on eighteen why because he does breath why because he's the limited limited options available to things like. Damn Gimme anybody if the plan. NFL suspended please the best wide receiver. I'm going to throw something out here. I don't WANNA get in trouble with the Patriots. This is an ESPN. I don't have any information off to apologize them. I think Brady's is hurt. Brady was heard in the bills game. That's why he struggled a little ferocious defense right so I understand not every team is gonNA look like that. Stephen a here's your problem with your Abe with your Abe Brady's gone through years has been he hasn't had an all world offensive target target to throw to write ray still has Josh Gordon who's very talented mounted the most of the receivers he has most seasons right right years down but when does he ever had a B. and his mama talk about missy when when you said Brady's GonNa fall off a cliff and you said and then that three straight super bowl you say in the question you question his philosophy velocity throwing the football when Brady was an off season the velocity on his. What did he say he pointed at? You did a segment on in other words what I'm trying to say it. Is it possible that he's out there and more sensitive than ever because he knows people are looking for the decline ars so as a result he's sitting and he's reacting to that and that's why he wants the ability of we're trying to say that. I am the reason Patriots I agree. I'm not talking about that. Thing is the bottom line is Tom. Brady is working damn near what his hand for top behind his back. I don't think that's game bandaging Max. I Hate I can't stay in that. Little Smirk on your face makes me 'cause you always think you're right. I know you always think right. You're right and you know you responded. You responded Max I a you got caught as a victim moment because the buffalo bills give the Buffalo Buffalo Bills Credit. Give the fact that this is the NFL credit give the fact that Tom Brady has already stated his claim to be the greatest quarterback of over and now you jump on this boat does not just those lesson you marcus for you to call Tom. Brady manager look makes Komo now. I would refer people to a bleacher report article from Mike Ten year last season. It was in January because he details this very well that the clean the decline in Brady's number and everybody think clans and his style of play yes. I realized that and that's what's happening to Brady what is Bella chick do belichick trucks out in all world defense and they're relying on that and even last year you see it wasn't Brady winning for them until they needed a to gain manager big on third down cool under pressure as I said that was Russell Wilson to start a career. That's been Dak Prescott now. That was Tom Brady to start his career and as in life quarterbacks at the end resembled kind of what they did in the beginning. I must say I'm GonNa tell you. I'm GonNa tell you the issue that people have with you and these Tom Brady takes. Are It seems to everybody that you have been waiting to have these type of conversations about Tom. Brady Brady father time has been undefeated since ever in sport right now. Joran declined. We saw toby declare clan. We saw everybody declined but for you to say that Tom. Brady is game. Manager is disrespectful to what Tom Brady is still steal. Doing you saw Tom. Brady one bad game. You saw Tom. Brady have a bad game last Sunday against the buffalo bills and you try to Joe sell out there. We've Malia Stephen Myself said Tom. Brady is the management you take you take that apart piece by piece okay number one father time being undefeated. That was the point. That was my original point that everyone your original that he fell off and then he went to three straight super bowl that goes. I pointed pointed to Peyton Manning Molly you right now. I pointed to Peyton Manning as an example of a quarterback who clearly fell off off the cliff and won a super bowl behind. What a great defense smart game manager with a great defense. I met Tom Brady's ahead by the way my runaway wait. Was that year you say I paid manning fell off a cliff and became a great manager. I was on the sideline with with the Baltimore Ravens and when he threw six touchdowns and broke a record but you can go. I deny that that was not even nearly the same player anymore. Come on that's number one number two the point of the article that I referred you on bleacher report worked from last year. Is that Tom Brady season last year the things he was doing yards per attempt all those things were indicative of a quarterback who was no longer longer fundamentally the same and that's taking place in an ever were passing numbers are way up so when I say game manager that's exactly what I mean gay manager who's good on third down and a quarter pressure. Can you win win. You a super bowl but that's not Tom. Brady from three years ago as the problem with your argument because you always stick to the damn point you said Tom. Brady was falling off a cliff. That's von now we turn around and you try to redefine what you meant by game manager and all the in order to stick to the quick. I will already addressed that and I gave you the example in the game against the chiefs last year. There was no way for me to didn't know at the time that the roughing the passer rules change to the extent that they have now quarterbacks are playing a little later at a top level than they used to play an even so he's not the same. It's called complementary football. He coaches which is topped. Kopplin is not an insult nephews to hear that all all the time. Tom Brady was not the same guy. I wouldn't be upset but to call. Tom Brady a game manager. That's a big MACs as blasphemous. He's he's not that's not true how Max Kellerman hater the year studying right. Molly wants wants to do the truth cliff three super bowls yeah. How'd that work. I love that cliff makes much listening to the podcast conspiracy weekdays ten A._M. Eastern on E._S._p._N. Fabulous Day. We'll see tomorrow.

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Who can solve our mental health crisis?

Business Casual

46:02 min | Last month

Who can solve our mental health crisis?

"Let's talk jobs while i'm sure many of you would compare spending twelve hours a day with producer josh to winning the lottery there are a lot of great options out there and today's sponsor talent dev is here to help you find the perfect career for you now. You might notice that. I didn't say job. That's because talent dev is focused on finding you the right career fit and they do it by tailoring strategy to your goals and personal objectives by using years of expertise and proprietary algorithms to guide your search talented offers a unique career management platform it melds smart tech and personal relationships to create a career path. That understands your needs. Stop looking for a job and let me find you a career checkout brew dot talented av- dot com to get started today that's brew dot t. a. l. and dav dot com. Hi everybody and welcome to business casual. It's neat kinsey grant. And i'm so glad we're having this conversation today so without further ado. Let's get into it. I've got good news. And i've got bad news a star with the bad news. Get it out of the way. This year has been a lot of things but good for our collective mental health is not one of them. In fact anxiety and depression have ravaged populations all over the world if you pair a contentious election and a second wave of this pandemic and the pressure of a recession you got a recipe for mental health distress. It's worsening a problem. That's already pretty terrible for a little context. The national institute for mental health as mental illnesses affect tens of millions of people in the us alone each year but only half of those people receive treatment. So that's the bad news but there is good news startups all over. The world are trying to do something about it. Whether that's something is increasing access to treatment or reducing stigma or utilizing tech focused therapies to help people who have long been overlooked and with those startups fresh focus on mental health treatment. For anyone anywhere they really can affect change for the smart investor is backing them. That change could mean a hardy payout so today we are going to go through the world of mental health as a business. How it's changed and what has changed. Who's making bank to help us do. Just that we are welcoming steven hayes to the show. Steven is the founder of what if ventures which is a fund focused on investing in early stage mental health and addiction recovery startups. Now an important note before you hear my conversation with steven steven suffered from type one bipolar disorder as well as addiction for much of his life. He started his investing career in the east sports and b. two b. enterprise space is an in two thousand seventeen and twenty eighteen during a time. Stephen describes as the darkest years of his life he was arrested twice the first for attempted assault and extortion where he took a plea deal but maintained his innocence and the second for domestic assault. He went into rehabilitation soon thereafter. He harmed a lot of his personal and professional relationships. But after stephen the time to recognize his disease and emerge from rehab he's worked on rebuilding his life with his friends and his family. He's launched a podcast on mental health. And he's taken his personal learnings to restart his career as an investor who's focused on mental health and addiction startups. During this episode. You're going to hear about the mental health investing space. But you're also going to hear about stevens personal story of addiction type one bipolar disorder and other mental health challenges. Stephen tells me about how bad things were but he also tells me how. He's tried to turn his life and his career around. I learned a lot from this conversation with stephen. I believe you will as well so thank you very much for listening. Welcome to business casual stephen. Thank you forever mean exciting to be here. Yes we are so glad to have you on the show today. I am really excited to have this conversation in general. This is a topic that i think we can not talk too much about. It is always important to talk about our mental health. And i think being able to take this sort of business lens to look at mental health as an industry and growing industry at that is something. I'm really really just to do something we've been wanting to do for a long time. And i just wanna make a note before we dive in here. Stephen that i know talking about mental health can be really tough for some people For a lot of us frankly and We'll have some resources available for anybody who is looking for help or thinking about looking for help. This can be a really tough time of year for everybody. You're not alone. And i'm excited to have this conversation and learn more because that's the first step right as learning more about this space and understanding. What makes it tick so stephen. Shall we dig. Right in your. Let's get to it all right so i want to start by getting a better understanding of what's at stake when we talk about mental health as an industry. Can you offer a little context as to why it matters so much that we give the mental health. Space the consideration. It's do know how big of a problem is this in the united states. Yeah i mean look. There's eight billion people on this planet and they all have mental health every american. Everybody who lives in this country has mental health and most of us figured out sometime in the twentieth century that we should take care of our physical health. Immediate became a thing in the mid twentieth century to exercise to have three gym memberships and have fifteen pairs of jogging shoes and to take care of our physical fitness. And maybe even try to eat a little bit better and what got left behind in. That fitness revolution was our mind. We haven't really done a lot about our minds and it's it's people are starting to wake up to the idea that maybe everything starts with my mind. Maybe if i take care of my mind a lot of other problems will be resolved or at least become less of a problem and that awakening is driving demand for services and for tools and techniques and for connectivity around mental health. That's creating an opportunity for entrepreneurs to fill that need and that's that's where we're focused right. I love thinking of mental health as cornerstone for health in every other aspect of our lives. We can't practice good physical health unless we think about our minds and undress the ways that we go about the world around us and a lot of times on the show we talk about success what it means to be successful but it's hard to really achieve that success without feeling like you're a good mental health space that you can be your best self that you can achieve what you want to achieve. It has to start here so the question is whose responsibility is it to address. These mental health concerns that we have in the united states. Certainly but i guess on the global scale who do we look to to to ask the question to see how we can get an answer to the question at listen. I'm an addict living in recovery. I'm two years sober. I believe that the responsibility to get well rests on each of us. I believe that we have a problem though where we don't have access to the tools that we d. We don't have access to the help that we need the help. That's available is often times not effective. And i think there's also. This heavy layer of stigma that rests over this industry that prevents people from getting help. I don't think that the answer falls on one person. I don't think it falls on the government. Although the government can and will do things that will help ear and tried successfully unsuccessfully for for many decades to do so. I think that there is a place for private industry to build solutions that bring people together and maximize the resources that we do have make them may be more effective and certainly make them less costly and more accessible. And i think there's also a place in the market for private enterprise to reduce stigma creek activity invulnerability. I mean i believe that. Peer to peer solutions will be a huge huge opportunity in the space. And i think that peer to peer mental health solutions might thesis is that they will replace social media as we know it today and they will exist not to get likes retweets but to create connective in vulnerability between human so that we can be well before we get into this concept of peer to peer and what this future of of mental health solutions. Looks like. i wanna dive in a little with this public. Sector versus private sector part of the conversation the government as it exists should at least in theory enrich the lives of people who live in that country. It should benefit us capacity. So how has the government. Either you know succeeded or failed in helping to reduce stigma or give people access to mental health resources. Who want it. I'm going to gloss over this in a quick answer. But i'm gonna reference a resource if you really wanna go down this rabbit hole. There's a book called american psychosis and this book details. The history of how the federal government has weighed in on mental health care in america over the last hundred years and basically how the federal government screwed it up. The blame doesn't fall to one. Party isn't one politician. It falls to every single politician. That has tried to touch this topic since jfk the enacted the community mental health. Care act the last bill he signed before he was assassinated and the government has tried to build institutions where people can get treatment than they disbanded those institutions than they. Those people were led out onto the streets. They became the homeless population. We have tried to criminalise drugs and tried to criminalize certain behaviors and we've filled the jails in this country with people who should probably be getting mental health. Treatment are for the most part. The government has really struggled here. And i just don't i think the government has a role to play in opening up a free market where people can build solutions for profit. That can be sustainable by the users who use them so that everyone can have access. I just don't think the government alone can do this. So what should the role of the private sector be should the role of industry the role of industries to build sustainable solutions and which said different ways to build profitable businesses that take advantage of people. Which is there's a fine line to tread here but build sustainable profitable businesses. That don't require the government supporting them. That can be around to help. People get from where they are to where they need to be with their mental health key. Things that that need is being met right now. Are there companies out there. That are actively doing that. There are companies that are attempting to do that. The need is far greater than the supply of help. And one of the ways i think about this. Is we talk a lot about what causes the mental health issue or the lack of care the lack of wellness and the three main reasons. People highlight our stigma cost of care and access to care. It's really hard to find a therapist and when you do find one it's really expensive and it's kind of embarrassing. Sometimes when you go to your therapist you have to go down this long dark hallway and this old shabby building and it's like that new windows and it's not cool. It's not like going to soul cycle. It's a little bit a stigma associated walking into your therapist office. And you know when you go on twitter at the end of the day you see. I see some of my friends bragging about what they did on their run today or in the gym today. But i don't see anybody bragging about walking out of their therapy session crying like i don't see anybody celebrating that and so there's been this heavy stigma that stigma has has really kept a lot of people from asking for help. But there's a flip side to that coin. That stigma has artificially suppressed demand for mental health. Care when that stigma is lifted. It's actually going to cause a huge problem because all of that artificially depressed demand is going to be looking for very limited supply. So the cost issue that i mentioned is only going to get worse unless we build supply. One good side of that is that. The reduction of stigma has encouraged entrepreneurs who generally build businesses around problems. They personally experienced. Its encourage entrepreneurs who've experienced mental health differences to step up and say you know what i can go build something around the thing that matters to me most not around a crm not around sas not around social media not around. You know something that. I also know but this core issue that i've experienced in my life. It's now okay from to step up. And say i'm going to be an entrepreneur in the mental health space and that is bringing a lot of solutions to market in that will ultimately allow the stigma drive cost even further up. In my opinion. That was a very long winded. Sort of answer. I love it covers so much. The idea of stigma being reduced right now and experiencing this sort of roll back in terms of how we talk about mental health and who talks about mental health. I think part of it is certainly generational. My generation is is open about talking about going to therapy and that is not necessarily the case with our parents or grandparents. And i think that that on the whole is a good thing but to your point this is going to read some problems as the market tries to adjust to a new sort of total addressable population entering into this picture here so as an investor. Where do you see the brightest spots here. I mean there are people who are following their passions and who are trying to solve problems that they've experienced themselves. But where do you see the biggest source of new possibility as somebody who's investing in this space. I think about where the opportunity is in a few different buckets The first two buckets they're kind of related to each other is number. One is the solution increasing the capacity of care in the system. And what i mean by that. Is you look out there and you see a lot of these platforms. That take a therapist. And they put him on text message or they deliver them over the phone or alexa or they just deliver the same capacity in a different a little bit different way over different medium. that's not increasing the capacity of the system if it is not increasing it by much. There's not enough therapist. There's not enough psychiatrist and there probably won't be a very long time. The rate at which we produce them is very slow and actually they are declining in numbers in the us so adding psychiatrist adding therapists and be the long term solution finding a way to provide more care to more people with the same amount of resources that we have that is interesting to me delivering care in a new way. And i don't just mean taking therapists who used to see you in the office and delivering them to you over. Text message while that's fine. It's not the solution. That's gonna really lead to mass scale ability of of getting access to people So how do we deliver more care. How do we deliver care in a different way and then what are really unique tech interventions are tech solutions that we can bring to bear. And when i say tech. I don't just mean zeros. And ones i mean you know what drugs can we develop. What can we do a psychedelic drugs. What can we do with measurement and testing. You know we've never measured or tested mental health. We've been on this planet for really really long time. And i went and looked at found a research an article somewhere that said that the earliest mirror was found about six thousand years ago or dated about six thousand years ago. We've been looking in the mirror at an judging physical self for six thousand years. We've never stopped in measured our mental self so measurement and testing tools for determining. Does this drug work do i. Am i better or do. I just think i feel better. Do i really need help. Am i addicted or am i not what's going on with dopamine levels in my brain does that therapist. A psychiatrist need to reach out to me right now am i. In need of help would prevent me from going to the emergency room. If reached out to me right now. Would i maybe take my medication for my heart. Disease in the not have a mass of co morbidity issue a tomorrow to go to the emergency room. Those are the kinds of questions those kind of thoughts. That's what i'm thinking about. I think that's where the big solutions are going to be in this space in the near term. Do you think that we have failed to measure our mental health. Because it's difficult and because we are prone to lying about it you can. You can see someone's physical appearance you can measure the circumference of your head right but it's difficult to to get a real idea of what's going on inside of it others are a guy named dr kevin mcauley. He's on the board of directors at the rehab center. I went to. He gives a speech about what's going on with mental health of what's going on with addiction in the brain and when he gives the speech and i'll i'll give you a link to a youtube video of him doing the speech he puts up page and he says you know if i if i was going to design the perfect disease if i wanted to kill as many humans as i could i would design addiction. I would design mental illness because it's invisible and the people who have it denied that they have it and the people around you the person that has denied that they have it and don't want them to have it and people who need help. Don't even go get it if i break my ankle. I'm probably going to go to the emergency room. But if i break my mind where do i go do i. Will i go anywhere right. So there's this lack of desire for help among the population of people that need help there's a stat on the The nami website has a bunch of stats for mental health in for addiction. And they say that about half the people who identified themselves as needing help get help. I think you've alluded to that and the introduction but about half the people who actually need help identify themselves says a very very small fraction of people who need help that actually seek it and of those who seek at a very small fraction. Even get it. So it's it's just getting people into the system and getting them encouraging them to want to get help as really one of the things we need to work on. And i feel like there's going to be some really cool. Solutions built around user interface that gets people engaging mental health and when it doesn't feel like it right feel like going to the therapist office of the psychiatrists opposite. Feels like playing a video game or it feels like doing something else. But it's actually making you mentally healthier. When we think about the people who are not accessing care for their mental health the populations who probably need help but are not reaching out to find it. How much of that do you think is because of the cost of accessing that care. I think it depends on where you fall on an acuity spectrum. So if you're pretty well off your ear. The cost of you getting a little bit better as really low. So if you're pretty well and the cost of you downloading head space or com is really cheap. If you're really in a bad place if you're where. I was right before i went to rehab. The cost to get you care is just astronomical. It's absurd in the insurance companies won't cover it and you got come out of pocket to pay for it for the most part so it depends on where you are on the acuity spectrum the further down towards i needed help really badly. I might die from this. You are the closer you are that the more costly get so that there becomes his point of no return. Where if you don't take care of your mind you will get to a point where you can't afford to and you can't afford not to and you're stuck and that's what this system needs to address. That's what a lot of the solutions that we're investing in. They addressed that population the population of people that are kind of no-man's-land. They can't afford it and they can't afford not to have to imagine from an investing perspective. That that shrinks the total addressable market Of course they're eight billion people. We all have minds that need care. But there are so few people who are actually accessing that has to meaningfully shrink the number of people who can use your service or participate in your study. Or what have you yeah. It's interesting concept like if if we build businesses that are successful in this space. There is a argument to be made that they ultimately cannibalize their market. Because we make everyone well the no one needs what we have right so you do have to think about that. But at the end of the day according to the stats the you even read out at the beginning of this conversation. Dora long long way from getting to the point where we've exhausted the market of people who need help and even once people get help me were still humans. We still need to be proactive about our mental health. There's things we still need to take care of ourselves. But i believe as an economist. I believe that if you provide that help people get well. Maybe it'll be less need for that help. But they'll also be less cost and other parts of the system and the broader society broader healthcare system will benefit from the reduction in co morbid healthcare costs and spending and they'll they'll be benefits to everyone in society for that. I mean look. I firmly believe that if we solve our mental health challenges. We saw most of our societal problems. I think most of our societal problems are tied back to not being connected and not being vulnerable with each other not being mentally. Well yeah it almost network effects of participating in care and and seeking care and talking to people about it could be huge. It just brings up. What is the next frontier here. You bring up the peer to peer idea right now. It seems that so many of the resources at our disposal when we talk about mental health. Startups are decently similar. It's talked to somebody Talk to therapists. What what have you. How do those companies differentiate themselves from one another win. Their core product is kind of similar. Yeah it's interesting because there's not a lot. I in the space right. So how do you differentiate yourself as a mental health startup Well there are some that have ip. It could be tack. It could be a measurement tool it could be a digital phenotype typing technology. It could be a patent around how you take information about the mind and relate back to someone using technology it could be could be a drug. A lot of the psychedelic drug development companies have ip. So i think really. There's some tack in there some drug ip that you can find in the space but really in this space. It's so undeveloped that a phenomenal founder. An incredible team can build a moat around their business by just being an incredible team. That comes into the space at tackles of really low hanging fruit problem so the white space is are greater than the areas in the space that had been building by solutions and so tough to build a moat. I agree but for the right team right. Founding team the right man the right woman. I think it's actually. There's a lot of low hanging fruit and just being a bad s founder. You can really do. Great things in the space absolutely. That story is so important. How important do you think it is that that team or founder or that bad ass has a license in either like a physician or licensed therapist or or what have you. I don't know that the ceo founder themselves has to have a have to be a clinician. But they certainly need clinical advice and help on their team. There's no doubt about it if you look. I think there's something like twenty thousand apps in the app store or that. Have something to do with mental health. And from what i can tell about. This is not my number. I got this number from one mind from cyber guide about three percent of those had any kind of just directional clinical validation to them he even or even reference a clinical research report on. Why they're doing it the way they're doing it. So it's very very important to have clinical validation around what you're doing even if it's just research to support you or maybe the research is part of the startup. I don't know but the clinical component is very important one of the dynamics that comes up here though as an investor in this space is there's this war there's this war between the move fast and break things entrepreneur. Who just wants to you know. We'll just try and if we're wrong that's fine will find out we'll pivot and we'll try again till we get it right which is finding that works in sas and social media in some other markets but in this space. If you're wrong you hurt people. And there's a fine balance between moving fast and breaking things and do no harm which is sort of the motto of the doctors of the clinicians in our space. And so you the perfect teams in the space really have the right balance of. I'm gonna make sure. I don't hurt anybody but i'm gonna move fast and break things. I'm going to challenge the system. And i'm going to shut up and disrupt the system at the same time i i refuse to hurt anyone. And i'm cognizant of that. That sounds like a very difficult balance to strike while also keeping in mind that you have investors. Expect you to make money at the end of the day. It's really hard. It's really hard and that's why you there's no venture capital fund out there that says i'm only gonna invested mental health. That's why the large tier one sandhill road funds. Don't have you know hundred and two hundred million dollars. Sidecar funds for mental health. That's why you don't see dedicated capital to this space because it's very very hard. It's still very stigmatized. Founders are just now coming to the space to build. It's not easy. If it was easy everybody would be doing it. So i do it. They almost killed me. I don't have another option really. I mean Addiction and bipolar disorder. Almost took my life. When i gotta rehab i i. I thought it was freak. I mean i thought this. Like what am i gonna do with my life. I'm never going to be able to do anything and i. I found some founders actually went to rehab with the founder. Who's now an investor of mine. He said hey. i know. Some founders building mental health startups. He should go. Check it out. And so i went out to the bay. Area spent a couple of weeks crash people sofas and met a bunch of founders. I realize how there's a lot of people building in the space but who's funding. It and i found that there was nobody dedicated to it. There are people who have invested in the space. Lots of them. I've found almost a thousand investors that have invested in mental health startup. But most of them have done at once or twice a dip their toe or they're not really dedicated to it and so i went out in two thousand nineteen and tried to raise a venture fund raise fund. I'm going to go out and invest in mental health startups and pretty quickly in early. Twenty nineteen. I got laughed out of a lot of meetings because people sat me down and said hey let me get this right so so you want me to give you twenty million bucks. You're going to hang onto it for ten years. You've been sober for like four months. Like how do i know you're not just going to to vegas with it and as an addict living in recovery you mean. It's a one day at a time program and that's my answer. I well. I mean i'm not gonna drink today and that's not a good enough answer for an l. p. in a fund and so i had are rightfully so had a hard time putting a fund together and One of my investors said to me. Hey why don't you go. Put a syndicate together put together syndicate. Go find deals bring them to investors let investors decide on a deal by deal basis and If you're able to do that you can build a track record. And people can feel safe that their investments not in some guy. That's just gonna take their money runoff today gifts and so that's how it started. You know it's it's really grown from there but my wife is because the twelfth stuff of alcoholics anonymous is all about going and helping other people and going and china fund these companies and help these founders grow them is part of me trying to help as part of me trying to do my part and yeah i hope it's profitable. I need to make money. I have two little kids in a in a house in the mortgage pay the bills. But i mean. I'm i'm not in this to get rich. I mean i'm doing this. Because this is part of my own recovery. And i think that's another reason why you don't see a lot of space because you know. Vc's are narcissistic bunch people. And they're very very slow to admit fault and very slow to admit needing help and i think the only way you can invest successfully in the spaces to not only have lived are experienced at be willing to admit your week. Is you have to be vulnerable. You have to own what you've done wrong and you have to say hey. I'm not perfect. I'm going to build in the space with these founders because these solutions are needed for people like me and more more meaningful way of trying to help people than to bring these resources to scale to try to address as many problems as you can with one smart investment in one smart founder and one smart team right all right so we're gonna take a short break when we come back. Have one major pressing question about the whole concept of making money in this space but before we do that short break to hear from our sponsor if there's one thing every business casual listener knows it's that we live in an international society yet. Doing business internationally still isn't as easy as it should be. That's why transfer wise is committed to helping everyone do business without borders. Transfer wise is a free multi-currency account that makes international transactions. Cheaper easier and faster how cheap up to nineteen times cheaper than pay pal. How easy you can pay a ton of people in one. Click and schedule invoice payments in fifty plus currencies. And how fast well. Thirty percent of transfers are instant. As i've heard from guest after guest on this show cheap easy and fast are basically music to a businesses ears. It's fully regulated around the world and over eight million people in two hundred and fifty thousand businesses trust transfer wise to send spend and receive money abroad. Now it's your turn start doing business without borders today and try transfer wise at transfer wise dot com slash business and now back to the conversation with as so stephen. We were talking before about why you got into this space in the first place. Why you feel this need to help people and to help these startups and to offer young companies the resources that they need to succeed or to attempt to succeed. But also you have to keep a roof over your head and support your family and provide for yourself. This brings up a a sort of back and forth. I find really interesting. In what i want to parse through a little bit here. How do we justify making money off of more people needing help you know these start. Ups are going to be more successful when they bring more people into or onto their platform when more people access the help that they need to address their mental health concerns the companies make more money the investors make more money so can we reconcile more people accessing mental health help and treatment with actually turning a profit as an investor or as an entrepreneur. Yeah i think so. I mean for me. We talked about this earlier. But i don't think government's the solution i think government needs to pave the way for these solutions are get out of the way of the solutions. But i don't think in the long run you can get help to billions of people if the government funds it. There's like an econ. One zero one concept there where. There's just not enough money in the system to do that. So i think there has to be sustainable. Solution built for people and i think the only way to do that is to build for profit businesses that can sustain themselves on helping people. I believe that it's the for profit. Sector is the only way to build the level of care the amount of care The the cost and the access that we need in order to get people help at the same time it profiting. Off of someone's pain is hard right. That's unsettling doesn't sit right. That feels funny to me. Like i saw it has to come from a place of genuinely caring and wanting to help. So how'd you decide that who gets to do it. It's tough because the people can take advantage and you see it. You see an addiction treatment. Center there addiction treatment center companies out there that are trash. I mean they're awful. They're addiction treatment center companies out there. That are awesome. They save a lot alive lives incredible and some of them barely operated a profit or maybe they even are nonprofits. So i think there's a really really heavy burden that falls on the investors to fund the wrong people in the space. And i think that's another reason going back to what we said before the break. I think that's another reason why who the investors are on the space matters a lot because i do feel like. It's really on us to make sure that we are thinking about that. We make our investments. We just it just can't be. Were backing you. Because you you've said your. Tam is bigger than the next the next founder. Doing the same thing. I feel a strong compulsion to back. Founders that the problem resonates with them. Because we've lived the same stuff. And i think if i stick to that. I hope that i will avoid backing something. That's purely monetary gain. That may end up hurting people and not take into consideration that there's a time in a place for the solution. It might not be forever. I keep thinking about how we see reports all the time right the big corporations that practice good standards and morals and values and You know keep in mind. The racial equity in gender equity and the mental health of their employees do better they have better returns. But i can't quite reconcile that with this idea that altruism and capitalism don't often go hand in hand it's difficult to find a founder. Who is doing it for the right reasons and also has a really great viable product. That has this huge market. It can address in this huge pain. Point to consult for it. Sounds like they're just so many variables coming together here that makes actually profiting in this industry. Difficult you think that the those necessities that that perfect sort of goldilocks point where everything comes together. The right way limits the profitability of investing in the mental health space. I think what it does is. It creates a marketplace where because stigmas reducing. There's a lot of people wanting to invest in this space. Whether it's individuals family offices as a lot of capital rushing in. I think a lot of capital will back bad ideas though back. Some of these founders of probably shouldn't be funded that may not have the right motives any way to stop that but that dynamic that you describe is what makes this hard it. What makes his heart is. What makes this attractive for early. Stage investor early stage investing is really hard. I mean you talked to any vc vc's investing about one percent or so maybe two three percent of the deals they see. So you know you're gonna see a lot of crap you know you're going to see a lot of stuff that just isn't worth investing isn't worth backing and some of those founders into raising money and you're going to wonder why you're gonna scratch your head and all of a sudden you're going to see a new york times article ten years later that these people weren't doing the right thing and so it's hard berry very hard. There's nothing about as easy but the overcomes how hard it is for me here. Is that even when. I meet a founder that i'm not going to invest in or when i put someone through our fellowship program that is going to end up raising money or is it going to be successful. There are a lot of motivated people out there that want to be in the space and rationalizing some of those away from starting a company and bringing them to other founders and plugging them in places where they can be helpful in the space. That's that's another one of my job. I don't get paid for that. It's not something that i we do for for money. It's just part of our job as Trafficking in this space is helping to rationalize the space. So i take it upon myself to to do that and i think other investors are space. Do that too. But all that to say super hard. It's not to be easy. And that's why only a few of us are really focused on it and i suppose part of it is just the risk you take. They they call adventure for a reason. It's not always going to pan out. okay stephen. I want to take a minute to think about the size of these startups. One of the big things that they're lacking is scale that they can't reach everybody who might need their product but for something like a huge healthcare company. They may be could reach a lot more people but might lack. The the new onset of startup would have so. What's the relationship like between large corporations and these smaller start ups. I hope i don't get in trouble for saying this but if you talk to somebody in a senior leadership position at a company like uhs which is the largest owner psychiatric inpatient hospitals in the us eleven billion dollar revenue public company. He talked to someone in leadership. There were they would tell you. Is there hostile provider and they have a very hard time. Innovating and adopting technology and and changing with the market and they see technology at revolutionizing the way we provide mental health care and they are terrified that they'll be left behind. And so if i'm a large corporation i feel like the only way if i'm one of these big hospital providers and i want to be in this space. I am keenly aware that i must be a part of digital solutions Be part of scalable solutions repeatable solutions. And it's not brick and mortar hospitals. And so i that those companies know they need to be involved in the space and they're trying to figure out how they will do it so that they can be a part of the innovation so they don't get innovated out of the market and i promise you there. Those large corporations are keenly aware that that's the dynamic in right now. Do you think that the fact that we are in a recession has any bearing on how and when people access mental health treatment if we are to in your example paint for out of pocket are people going to maybe access that treatment a little less than a recession. If we have less disposable income. I think so I also think that when we come out of the recession is when it gets worse. So i read a study and i can't remember exactly where i found it but basically they looked at all the recession's over the years in figured out you know when people kind of correlation of suicide or depression prescriptions At a couple of metrics in what they found was it deep recessions depressions. It's actually not as bad mental health in recovery periods or light recessions. It's far worse because we compare ourselves to our neighbors and our friends and we feel like we're all in it together. It's not quite so bad but when you feel different than your fellow when you feel different than your neighbor you feel like your neighbors doing fine but you're not. That's when people really have a hard time. So i think as we climb as we as this vaccine gets distributed and as the the world settles down politically post-election hopefully and as people as the recession improves as as the economy improves. People are gonna start to realize their disparities to their fellows more than they had during the worst of it. And i think things are gonna get worse. I think that's where the real opportunity is to be there in the market for those people and provide them care in a way that they can afford. And yeah you know what a lot of people aren't gonna be able to afford it so we figure out how to provide it in a way that makes sense because at the end of the day if i have co morbid healthcare problems and i'm not taking mental health. I start going to the emergency room more often. I stopped taking my my heart medicine or my other medications and i ended up showing up on the insurance company as a physical health. Care expense. That could have been mitigated by taking care of mental health. So at the end of the day the there are people whose incentives are very aligned with taking care of our mental health. Who don't i don't quite understand it yet. Yeah all right. We're gonna take a quick break when we come back. Talk a little bit more about this specific moment in time and what. It means for a mental health but first short break from our partner. Here's a little old news. Sleep is super important for your health. Not shocking you probably already knew that but a healthy nighttime routine is easier said than done. So here's the new news beams dream. Cbd powder dream is a sleep promoting healthy take on hot chocolate. It helps your body and mind wind down for a better night's sleep plus it's ingredients are actual things you've heard of like magnesium racy melatonin and nanno. Cbd so if you're anything like me and have trouble catching some. Z's dream is the product of your dreams literally. It's a delicious in cozy nighttime. Drank backed by professional athletes. Like danika patrick. And business leaders. Like patrick schwarzenegger drift into dreamland. Easier with beams dream powder business casual listeners. Get twenty percents off with code casual at beam. T. l. c. Dot com that's b. a. m. t. l. c. dot com slash business casual for twenty percent off with the code casual. Now back to the conversation with stephen hayes so stephen. We're talking before this break about the impact of a recession on mental health. Comparison is the thief of joy is kind of the big takeaway that we got here. That when we compare ourselves to those around us off in our mental health suffers to wonder what a pandemic this global health crisis is doing to mental health. How do you think that twenty twenty has impacted the mental health space on the whole. I think it's shining a spotlight on it. You know. I think there are certainly people that are more people that need help than ever. I think the pandemic has had an impact on that but i think a bigger issue here is that a lot of people already needed help. They were starting to talk about. Celebrities are already coming out starting to talk about bipolar disorder. Addiction and stigma was reducing before us I think that the isolation we've felt during this pandemic has forced us to talk about it. Talk about its impact on us. And it's i think it's reduced. Stigma forced people to talk about mental health away. They've never talked about it before you know. I don't want to minimize the how awful this has been on society in the just ridiculous number of people that have died from this pandemic but it's china giant spotlight on a on a place. That was dark before. I mean it's got people talking about isolation and what the impact of that is on on our health and our wellness and i think it's actually boosting awareness for the solutions being built in our space. And so it's why it's double edged sword away and i don't want to be like rosie positive about it because i just i mean people lost their lives here but i mean this is a shift this a shift in how we talk about mental healthcare as a society and i think there is some benefit from what we've been through as well and certainly we don't have a solution to the isolation that we're all feeling right now but i think at least starting to consider the impacts of the isolation is step one and by the time we figure it out. Maybe we'll we'll have a better. Understanding of what being isolated does to people into their mental health but this is also big part of the conversation in two thousand twenty but in the mental health industry. More broadly we're all remote right. Now you and i are having this conversation remotely you are in texas. I am in new york. The idea of accessing mental health treatment in person has for a long time. Been the norm but we are experiencing this shift toward remote healthcare. This tele mental health. What does that mean for the industry. It's interesting. I am a big believer that a lot of our mental health problems are byproducts. Have dysregulation of our nervous system. Scientists would say that a lot of doctors that i've talked to interviewed on my podcast would say one of the primary ways we learn to regulate our nervous system as humans. If for dysfunctional with that is we get into a room. We get physically close to someone who has a healthy nervous system and we spend time with them when we pay you back off of their ability to regulate themselves. That's why programs like aa. That's why some church communities that's why community groups that's why the rehab centers is why some of these places put people together in groups in benefit from it But one of the things we talked about earlier we talked about alf. You people reach out and ask for help when they need it. And i think one of the big solutions to get people to ask for help or get to take help is removing friction to getting that first bit of help and i think the increase of health is breaking down that barrier to the first step to get help. There's people that are probably willing to sit at home and get help over zoom. That aren't willing to get in their car and drive to therapist for the first time or go to an aa meeting in person for the first time and so. I think it's going to drive more people to getting help. But i personally from my own recovery is. I'm not a scientist. I have not researched this. I feel like. I need human connection in person with other people in recovery in order to maintain my recovery right and so i think that the remote is a great entry point for people. I think texting with a therapist over. Your phone is better than having no interaction with the therapist. But i do think there is no substitute for putting people on room being vulnerable with them. Yeah we we often take this tech minded approach to considering startups in any industry. And i would say the same rings true for mental health. Especially if you can do it remotely you can do it at scale. You can address everybody who needs help right. You don't need to be physically in front of a person. It's low overhead cost. The capital costs are much smaller here. But it's interesting to me to think about that. As as more of the entry point not the end game for a lot of these startups. This is how you start to address the problem but maybe not how you solve it at the end of the story. Yeah i think it's you know we talked about how there's a lot of people that won't get help. They won't seek help. They don't want help even though they need it. I think that mental health has a user interface problem. And i think that there might even be a place in the market for solutions. That and this is just my layman's way of saying this. That kind of trick people into working on their mental health and so i think a lot of those solutions will look very remote. They will look Like they will look like video games. They will look like social media. They will be. They will be mental healthcare masked as some more approachable front door that will ultimately get somebody plugged into a of care that runs for them as they start to embrace their own mental health I love rethinking the way that we conceptualize mental health. It's not just laying on a couch and talking to therapist in a dark dingy office with box of tissues like there's so many different avenues for delivery in terms of mental health treatment. And i am excited to see where all the goes. I think that it's certainly one talking about it. Step to getting more people to start their own step. One is is important. So thank you so much. Stephen for coming on business. Casual and for being so candid and honest and insightful with all of this and this whole conversation has really been eye opening for me and i hope for audiences well We talk a lot about the startups. That are going to change the world on this show and i think it's so important to take a step back and realize that before we can change the world. We need to make sure we're we're in our best possible mental state and we focus on ourselves first so thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for for bringing this topic up and promoting at a time in the year when people struggle holidays are hard and any holidays this year going to even harder on people so i i would encourage people to get out there. Follow the rules do at the cdc says do what the government tells you to do as far as you know how you should handle yourself over the holidays but connect with people. Call him on the phone text. Reach out and knock on your neighbor's door. Just reach out to people. Connect with other humans over the holidays. People people need. It might not be quite as great as hugging your your relatives and your friends in person but it certainly is a start time to talk about one of my favorite podcasts. That isn't this one. Fresh invest fresh invest is a podcast that morning brew made with fidelity that. I'm really excited for you to hear after. Listen to business casual. Of course over the course of eight episodes the brew ceo. Alex lebron is sitting down with a bunch of fidelity folks and diving into today's most important economic topics and how they affect the everyday investor. Alex and his trustee fidelity squad track big tex trajectory what city dwellers migration to suburbia means for your home-buying dreams analyze how this year's unprecedented spike in e commerce sales will forever change digital retail. And so much more. If you like business casual and you're interested in investing you need to check out fresh invest from fidelity and morning brew available. Wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much for listening to this business. Casual steven mentioned it but it bears repeating this time of year can be tough and you might not be able to hug your friends and family this holiday season but that shouldn't stop you from giving them a call so today call you up. Thanks again for listening. And i'll see you next time.

Stephen six thousand years us kinsey grant national institute for mental steven hayes steven steven government bipolar disorder dr kevin mcauley federal government twelve hours three percent two hundred million dollars depression stevens Thirty percent josh Steven hundred years
Oh Behave! Using Discrete-trial, Free-operant, & Naturalistic Teaching Arrangements with Gina (5th Task List G-9)

Oh Behave! Podcast

1:28:05 hr | Last month

Oh Behave! Using Discrete-trial, Free-operant, & Naturalistic Teaching Arrangements with Gina (5th Task List G-9)

"Low and welcome to behave sign. Your host. Brian middleton also known as the beauty behaviorist and today we have gina a b c b. A who is joining us to talk about. Task list item jeanine which focuses on using discrete trial. Free apratment and naturalistic teaching arrangements. we're going to be focusing predominantly on naturalistic teaching arrangement. So a future podcasts. Come out focusing on discrete trial or free operate. Stay tune but they kind of all play together and so this is something that we're going to touch on the other two. Even though naturalistic is is our primary focus today. Welcome gene you so much for coming on. I really appreciated it. So you can for having me because the recall is really cool So gina my understanding. Is that your favorite Approach to teaching is naturalistic. Also an aka. For that folks is incidental teaching. Why is that. Because it's not routed it's kind of it's kind of like it just occurs and it looks like we want the kids to the into social environment. Here's what sitting them down at a tip or wherever and doing flash cards things like that. it's not exactly how kids learn if you watch in your community so the best way to inspire that is to just let it naturally happen. Yeah one of the reasons. I love naturalistic teaching in. It's kind of my preferred approach to Not kind of it definitely is is because it generalizes. So well it is. It is less difficult. To get a skill to generalize when you're learning in a natural setting because there's so many opportunities where you can do that and so I do like to arrange the environment So that those those naturalistic things are available. Like games and And things like that. In fact our centers working on doing some decoration. And one of the things that i was like. Let's have a shapes numbers and colours room and in letters to let's just cover the wall and shapes numbers letters in colors and then kids can walk in. And that's a naturalistic opportunity. Be like hey show me read something like that. Because then it's it's more slowly. I have two granddaughters. Both of the autism and our houses setup like that believe there are pertinent. There is tons of stuff on the walls. it looks like they live here. honestly We have children tables with chalkboards. On it just isn't all that can be but to create an environment that fosters many learning opportunities as we can get definitely so what are some example. Will you mentioned a couple. You mentioned arranging environment. And i did too But what are some ways that you utilize naturalistic teaching Of play so a lot of the games. I have my analytic mind. Breaks everything down into pieces. When i go to a store and look at a game. I'm like oh my gosh. We can identify colors. You can do counting This is sorting during cleanup so many many opportunities to get all of those lessons in their into wine. Really one big last sentence for instance. I have trouble game. We have little tiny pieces here at. And i will tell them. Okay are going to be read bradley. Ride ones okay. And they have to grab the redland tile and when they click the hidden global bubble whatever number they get i will say what number is that and then accounting comes after. If they can't do it you go right into you know giving them the answer. I'm not for error. Correction of a hand over hand type deal That was in my practicum and blows days are over. That's where you find that a lot of the truck comes in you. Have somebody grabbed the child and touching. They don't want you to touch stab and we need to respect that. Yeah it also depends on the individual. I will say because there's some some individuals who find touch more reinforcing but regardless my thing is is that there needs to be consent involved And sometimes there's some skills like tieing shoes were. It's their need at the start because there are some struggle. Sometimes hand over hand is necessary. But it's always you can see if there's consent present or not. I'm i'll tell i'll tell you a perfect example of that So a client. I was teaching ties shoes. And i showed and he struggled with it and he was nonlocal so it was kind of difficult for the communication because it if he doesn't have the words in his polo quo were Or the sign language. Then it's kind of difficult to communicate in. So i looked at him and i said can i tie issues with your hands on top of mind and he looked at me. He didn't nod but he did. Typically does not in his communication. And so what i did is i put my hands underneath his and i tested to see if he was resisting and and he wasn't and he in and so i tested a little bit more and i and i wasn't grabbing him. Run top of mine. And i moved and he moved with me and he kind of laughed because he thought it was kind of fun and then i and then i had his his hands as i showed him how to put his hand in figures reminded night tide while he tied with me. And we did that. Three or four times always always being aware that if there was any resistance i was ready to stop and then once that had been accomplished three or four times i said would you like to try. And he reached out and he started trying and He got stuck on a spot. And i said can i help. And i've i've learned how to read the nonverbal that he does have to communicate in. It looked like there was consensus reached. Over and i again gently this time. My hand over his showed him how to get that one spot Always ready to pull back if there was any amount of resistance And i i feel like that's something that we poorly cover in that aspect of prompting Because like we have to have consent. If you don't have consent we turn into agents punishment not agents reinforcement really think that we need So before i became a be a i actually worked in a nursing home for many years and one of the things. We were ties to read body language so pain. There's a certain way that their face might win sore. Something they're going to give you a look. And when i moved to virginia and started working with benita center based it was a super cool because i had a nonverbal kid and they were like. Oh he doesn't know any of that stuff and when they said that he gave me the side plans like whatever she does know it. And i learned that with the kids to watch their facial expressions. Because what you think. They don't know because they can't talk. Expressively or vocally you. They do no practical. I had kiddo of the praxair. And i just loved him because he would get the sassy us look status if and it was mainly because he was getting irritated with the fact that they were having him do something he knew because they didn't think you knew it finally tell them unlike one in dan just show s. You got this and we're going to be donald press. Okay i was. you know. And he looked at me. he smiled. he pointed to it. We re died. I was like yes sweet. So that actually leads. Nicely back to the naturalistic versus discrete. Trial so discreet. Trial or dt is is frequently referred to. Can you describe it in your own words. What that is as distinctive beginning ending taking a turn as display trial And i think that like we talked about before discreet. Trial at naturalistic. Learning often gets confused. Arteries and People tend to think it's not a discrete trial if you don't do it five. Trains are exactly discreet. Trial can just happen. Once in your move on. I have to sit at the table and and repeatedly like that drives. That's the part that drives me insane. And i tend to stay away from it a little bit more than i should probably. Because it's really really difficult when you have a full caseload and you go a week later. You're supervising and you're watching t. Like showing the cat show it a cat. You're like a away got it. Will you not to do this. Yeah so. I tried to explain to them like retard oftentimes. I'm you can combine the two so you're going on to walk you know that. The neighbor's cat is always in the window. And you're currently point to the cat Point over that's still a discreet trial exactly and likewise like a so. I had a client who loved movement just again non verbal or non vocal rather Lots of lots of loving to walk around in the moves and whenever the weather allowed it we would go outside together and we just do tons and tons of movement and you know the va. This is when i was during my supervision time the bc was had. Let me know that she was a little frustrated. Because a lot of people will be spending so much time at the table and then a because of that They would be spending tons of time on the ipad because that was his preferred reinforcer than movement and so it was just like ipad. Definitely there in. It's something you can do. But like what about all the other stuff. And so i would use. I would use movement. As as a a way of getting us to move around. And i i i did a stimulus control transfer Of starting with the stuff that we did run the brand programs on the ipad So walk along the case this when. Hey what's that one. What's this that sort of thing And then gradually as we were out in the natural environment. I transferred it to. Hey you point to the green. Where's the red. Whereas the blue. And then i pull up the ipad with his pirlo quoque is. That was something we were practising. And i'm like what you want right now. And he would he. Would you know. I want walk. Or if he was done he he wants you know he would do all done or eat. Indicate bathroom or whatever it is that he wanted to do at that time. In one of his favorite things that we would do is go to the park that was really close to the center and he would climb to the top of it and just sit up there and enjoy the view. It was really nice. And i'd sit at sit with him and they're right. I talk with them and tell them about how doing and ask him how he's doing. You know just do that. Conversation back and forth. And then every once in a while. I'd i'd do a dt trial. But i do one or two. And then i'd be done and and interestingly before at the start of this whole thing i did this he was scared to slide down the slide by the time we were done by the time i you know left to because our company had opened a second center in the needed me at the south center By the time i had left He was sliding down the slide. Four or five times lower out there. He was enjoying himself. He was laughing. It was all about engaging in the natural environment even when we were doing. Dt it was engaging the natural environment and like you mentioned in like While we're talking like it doesn't need to be mutually exclusive is just like you said there's a there's a discrete beginning and end and that's the trial. They you go. Yeah i just flip through this recently or is like and may the regional director the company. I work for a. She is amazing. She is probably iowa sailor. She's a great mentor for me. And she's like you just do this so naturally and i'm like yeah because of a forty five year old child up to play. That is probably my favorite thing to do in the world. And when i realized that i could help kids learn just five playing with them. I was like this is career for the rest of my life But she tells me that one of the biggest things that she sees is a lot of our staff. Just doesn't know how to play. Leah we own and we forget to have fun. It's gotta be it's gotta be you know if you're not having difficulty you're not doing your job and that's not true. Yeah well you should never be difficult that actually relates to one of my one of my heroes who unfortunately recently passed away Sir ken robinson if you ever get a chance if you if you don't know him His ted talks are amazing and he talks about how school teaches imagination it. It basically program imagination out of us and he talks about some different things there and I had opportunity to meet him once. It was definitely a pleasure. And i did get a chance to meet a hero. And he is definitely he was definitely a human being who is worthy of being hero. My opinion but That that that idea that concept we need to learn how to joy ourselves blue learn how to engage with their environment. Now play in. Sometimes we get to stuck with the while. gotta get this done. I got it move from this point to this point to this point and it's like well can't you have both. Can't you enjoy yourself while you're moving towards your destination And somebody actually pointed out to me. That i'm always smiling. I'm like well that's not necessarily true. I do have the full expanse of emotions that i feel and i've been through clinical depression so i know i know what it's like to to not feel and and when i feel sadness i feel it and when i feel angry i do feel angry. But it's always moving towards my values. And i feel like you and i share this value that naturalistic teaching any t really needs to be pushed as a as a skill that everybody should be using not just not just therapists. Not just as Parents teachers School is is really aversive. We need to figure out a way to help. Teachers see that they can. They can play. Kids can learn through play. I'll give a little example of. I was in school math like my horrible horrible subject and so the solution to that was spending a summer. Attic kitchen table Memorizing math facts over and over again and it got to the point where i would see a math book and i couldn't breathe that hit me and my college career because algebra was like the monster under the bed until i met a a professor. That was a key. Let's get some colored pencils. Let's have some fun with this All the minuses. Are this color. Let's make this colorful break and it became engaging for me and then it was heirless learning. Let's find something that's identical to this in the solutions manual. And here's how you do it and now breaking down. And now i can whip out algebra like it's not an issue and it's a longer versus yes and Actually i'm gonna. I'm gonna use an example for my special ed days So i had a student diagnosed with asc And he would cry. A lot and the teachers didn't know what to do because they were used to like angry. That were used to tantrums. Things like that but crying just couldn't understand and so i. I talked with the teacher. And i said how we do a little. Abc data here. Let's figured out. When when does he start playing and it was always around math like without fail math. Was it There were a few other times where he got. He hypothesized he would get a little frustrated anxious. And you cry around other things but the consistent thing everyday math when it came up start crying so the good news was my classroom was right next to hers so i said how about you. Send him over and he can hang out with me. And we'll work on math. And i en- sh she such a wonderful teacher. I said to start with. I don't wanna do math with him to start with. I just want him to be with me. And we can hang out. And and that way i can build that now. I know what it's called pair bond or pairing but a bill that report with him and she was very flexible with that. In his we allowed for his iep for assignments to be excuse and tricked this kid into mastering algebra through a game on my ipad This game is called dragon box. Twelve plus there's also a dragon box seven plus for younger ages and it. It's it's like it's like if cut the rope and Other puzzle games like that were turned into a math game. And it's fun. Like i played it for hours because this is really fun and like i'm pretty good at math but this one this this game made me better math and to start with it starts with just little fun symbols and things like that. And it's got the stimulus prompts in all the other things that are built in that that games do so well and the little dings and beans and all the little sounds that are highly reinforcing and after going through three or four levels. They start introducing in math symbols instead. And after five days of doing that. Just just a week worth of intervention He was about to get up to come to my classroom for math and the teacher had written algebraic equation on the board he goes. I know this. This is dragon box and he walks up in further class without being invited. Grabs the the barker out of her hand in solves the equation as a teacher was so shocked and He would still visit me from time to time during that time but it was because he wanted to not because he was crying and he. The teacher was again very flexible with that. So she'd say he'd say. Can i go see. Mr middleton a. He's really good at helping me. And i miss that boy. He's such a good kid and he would come over and we would sit down. And i'd be like how can i help. And he's we'd we work through the map. Come together and it. All started with naturalistic teaching. That had dt inc. Because that's what video games do. Video games actually are predominantly dt But it's introduced such a way that is not aversive and and that's the same with any type of turn taking game. I have like australia. This fun is community helpers. Bingo i will scam. You can address pronouns on here You can it's good conversation. You're not just calling out bingo but you might have spiked. Hey where the floors work flower shop. It's very natural. It's i mean. But i think too when i look at all events in a whole the time investment to create games or purchased them. It's a lot in new people. It might be too much for me and just like oh. My gosh is after christmas sale. I'm buying everything under the sun. And i have a giant shelf for everything goes only because i don't ever want a child to feel about like felt about people at taught me at a unhitch. Well in a big part of that is that we want the child to be open to learning in in behavior analysis is education like it's it's the it's the science of learning and We forget that sometimes we miss the point and We need to remember that we're human and that humanity is a huge part of what we do and if we if we lose touch with that if we get so abstract that we're like with the subject i'm like well yet like i'm the subject and the scientists when i when i use self management tool saw myself but i still have compassion for myself like i'm not gonna i'm not gonna dehumanize the other the other person just because there's a science the word science is included with our science and anybody who does that loses the loses the point because as polly gloves said last night when i was talking with him. This is the science of helping like applied behavior analysis. The the very first word applied were applying it to help to address the problems and if we lose sight of that then we've lost sight of the entire objectives and that's where the trauma comes in because we're we're not helping them. The person were serving where we're helping serve some other cause at and i see that all too often it's l. Pilots say one day. I would love to open up my own center and just run it the way that i want to do it because when you're working for other people you're doing their way you get that gray area where you could argue. A corporate policy is policy. And i think that's where a lot of these kids were into some issues so if your employer tells to ride x amount of gt and they want you to do any t they want. Do it this way and you have to follow that procedure. I have oppositional defiant component rapidly. Nope not happening. And i don't care if you write me out because you know at the end of the day is not gonna hurt my feelings. If i know what i'm nervous right have other people who are overly compliant and they don't question not there just do it and i'm not saying everybody should just go told their job. Oh but i mean that's really what it boils down to if something doesn't feel right and if you want it done to you don't do it somebody else well and it's a it's a there's contingencies in play with that because like you know. Behavior analysis applies no matter. What and The contingency play there is that The person who scared to speak up is is avoiding losing their job. They're they're avoiding They probably have a history of punishment related to speaking up and so therefore they don't wanna do that and they also have a history of reinforcement for complying and that sort of thing and and that's the number one thing that i always make sure that the rv i work with understand is that yes. I have the bcda behind my name. Yes i have the masters degree in the postmaster certain all that other education that doesn't mean that they're not behavior analysts their observations are very important and i would be idiot if i dismiss them alice. Call it a collaborative team. And what i see is like we have a mom play with slap it on the table we started to mold that lump of clay in you know it looks great but then all of a sudden we have tyler people have these wonderful ideas if we just stopped there. It's always gonna be back. One lump of clay in science is evolving more input. We have an even if the ideas not grant and believe me. I've had some ideas where it's like if somebody that can add on to it and just turn it into something. That's totally amazing. And that person could be your neighbor. It could be in are not just because you have the letter to me. That means absolutely nothing. I never ever. I tell them all the time. Like if you have an issue. I did something wrong. Like like. don't be afraid to plan it out and be like hey Us put something totally different in there. 'cause i can change. I can't change something. I don't know. Yeah well i will say that. I gotta brag on my son director She she's amazing so right. Now i'm i'm freshly minted ba. So i'm waiting for the insurance to approve all that slang. You and i get i get to the The pleasure of being the. I've the code monkey of the of the center. Because i'm doing a lot of the authorization reports And in a lot of the testing assessments and stuff like that that have to be done and spending quite a bit of time in front computer which is kind of exhausting but the other big. The bbc bskyb onto the other. Bcda's keep on telling me don't don't burn yourself out take a break do other stuff like that. Sort of thing socially cool But that means that. I get to go through quite a bit of the programming and authorizations and stuff and been more than one time that i've spotted eye contact programs and and this is the this is the value of report building because i built a report and then i've gone to the those other. Bcda's and i'm like wait. Remove these these. These need to be altered or removed like we can't we can't i i. Contact is not okay. We need we need to be focusing on More naturalistic so body. Orientation is what. I like to call it because it i contact really doesn't happen as often as people like to make does It's actually more like if i'm sitting and doing something and my wife says. Hey brian if i slightly sit up after. She says that that tells me that that tells her that. I'm listening. that's a body orientation of it that doesn't mean i have to turn all the way around. Sorry turn all the way around. Moved away from mike new to be able to indicate that i'm listening And that's and that's just learning nonverbal cues and so I learned this pretty early on as a special ed teacher. Even before i got introduced to behavior analysis eye contact should only be something that we have as a goal if the individual not the family not the insurance individual wants it. Because i've had a couple of people who have said. I wanna learn how to make eye contact easier. And so that's that's the goal that i that i put in. Because they asked for it. Not because they're i'm being told they're being told they need to learn it and i will throw out there if you guys wanna do a naturalistic way of making eye. Contact non aversive. Get a dog because Dogs are the only species on this planet other than human that when we make eye contact with them and they make eye contact with us. Now only is Dopamine released but serotonin which is the relationship drug or is oxidised. it's oxytocin. I'm sorry. I was mixed those up And i didn't have that problem with. I contact because might parents had dogs. When i was a very young from like as soon as was born they had a dog. I remember her His name was chester is a lab. I don't remember much about him. But i remember really enjoyed playing with them and My parents would be playing with him to. They'd be looking at me looking at the dog and looking at me and the incidental contact happened that naturalist upsetting and it created that pairing of i contact so i contacted less than an issue from still uncomfortable with other people with people. I don't know another cool way of making eye contact to is making funny faces on my granddaughter my oldest granddaughter kind of a lot like i m so. She will look at people when she hugs. Show come to your head kisses. I think it's precious an absolute love it for a world The way that we got her to look at us was we make like the most ridiculous faces in the world edge. She thought it was hilarious and in that moment she would look at us and that she would do it back and it was awesome in. She doesn't have. I mean i don't either so armee in one of the things i told. My daughter is please push for. I contact because i remember growing up at school just crying like f people college even like you need to look people during presentation or you're going to get docked x. amount of planes and i mean mid-presentation amateurs because i just simply cannot do it and the more you look at people. The worst that anxiety gets ethics. Yeah yeah so you know. There's there's some naturalistic ways to to increase or decrease the discomfort. But at the same time there needs to be a cultural understanding of body. Orientation is more important than i contact. And if the individual doesn't wanna make eye contact and guess what they don't want to make contact it's okay. I mean at the end of the day. What really matters the fact that somebody was looking at here that you had a really awesome. Congress's sugar really cool presentation and you. They made eye contact twice during the presentation of the conversation. Awesome lei the dead. It doesn't hurt anyone exactly awesome. Sorry go ahead and gameplay too. I mean if you're playing games a lot of times like if kids are successful and they beat you. They loved to celebrate that at. You'll get i contact naturally right there as third calling you like a high one bloomberg when it's comfortable for them. Yes well contact holding something next to you like look at me. Look at me like no. that's comfortable. that's that's and that's weird saving natural natural never in your life. Are you ever get to go into public. And somebody is going to take something maybe like if they do look at rural weird and that that was kind of me. I'm they tried to explain it. Lake well eventually we hold it but then you see in our kids that had that five seconds terror. It's like that awkward to an awkward. If i to stir at somebody for five seconds. I'm probably. I'm not gonna have a behavior because i'm not three but i'm probably going to have some high anxiety and some other stuff going on throughout the day that's going to contribute to having in. The rollover is huge. It is huge. So you've mentioned Game play. And i wanna i wanna kinda throw this out here. Because the kind of pet peeve of mine when it comes to two games a lot of people get stuck on electronic versus not electronic. And and i'm a big fan of both because first off. There's this kind of conception of spent so much time electric's. They really shouldn't be doing so much of that am i. I'm like well. I is this a natural reinforcer. So why are you not using that to help the blurred and second. That's pairing opportunity. So why aren't you helping that to pair and finally own like electronics are here to stay. This is going to be in their future as adults. And it's real and it's a part of your life so it's not about. Let's not do that because you're doing too much of it. It's let's learn how to use this to help ourselves. And i i made this argument and my center got a nintendo switch and super smash brothers and sports party and all these other games and each kid has their preferences and i go play with them in and they play with me. And my my. Rt's do the same thing and we have fun and we have a token economy. Where like there's a cost involved with being able to access it And they earned those but guess what we also did. We made it so that if you the cost is the same whether you play with a group or with an individual but if you play with a peer you can split the cost so the more appears you have involved with playing the game the more opportunities you have to learn how to to to work with each other and when kids have arguments we don't stop them unless it starts getting to the point where like there could be harm done or you know name if name calling comes out then that means that we need to. We need to do a small intervention because as soon as we get to that point. that means. we're we're kind of degrading in our communication But we we let them argue and solve it and then if we need to we support and one of the things that i love about this is like our center also has a policy that we we don't use punishment and less it is the only option and only after we have multiple bc as review and And and even then we shy away from it and that includes response cost so If we have kids arguing or we have somebody you know. Rage quit or you know. Throw down a controller or something. We pause the game. We solve the problem and we go back to it like it's not removal. It's it's temporary removal it saying. Hey this is a time out. Let's figure this out. We saw artless go back to it and we actually have break the rake a break and then we and then we moved back to it in and The other side of that is that like we had actually Some kids who through some elbows at each other and and got in some name. Colin like we weren't quite fast enough deposit and that sort of thing but So there were tears and there was some anger and then in this particular circumstance we worked through. We solved it. They took ownership of their part in the situation. They let them the other personnel. How they felt. And then i was like you know what you guys do. Such a great job. Not only do we get to go back to the game. I'm adding ten minutes fact because it's all about reinforcing those behaviors. That's naturalistic and it's really. You're not giving attention to the negative behavior. But you're reinforcing the behavior that you want to see that is the whole purpose of what we do and appearance and everybody argue like so. We're just supposed to nora getting slash. You're gonna block in redirect but you're gonna give very very minimal attention to that Them when they come to you. They say you're sorry. Sorry an immune to do that in the next him all. I'll ask at that play. You're gonna give all the attention memory in the end the attention that needs to be given in that time as well. I roast feeling really sad or mad when you hit me. It's it's thank you for taking ownership of that. And and i understand how you feel like that. That's that can be really frustrating. Thank you say. What do you think that we could do next time. exactly leave. And if they can't tell me i'll ask them was it. Okay can give you some ideas. Churn all right well. You know what we could walk away. We could shut the door and getting people to honor that if somebody is angry. Let them walk away for crying out. Do not go back. you're at the table. All right now you just ask to have your rear end handed to you and i'm a word about it cut. Its i'm back angry and you come chasing after me an trying to force me to do something. We are human beings. We have a fighter flight. We can only be pushed so far before we go back into what i call like a primal moored and the primum mobile justify. I like to give it away and to get out of. Get out of the spot where your stomach. Yeah yeah so. I mean if if we let them have i just say he asked for break can have a break. Absolutely you know. Go to the other room. Shut the door. Get your ten minutes or if you need an hour you have to take an hour. I mean we cannot determine teach perspective taking and i said this in my comment who teach perspective taking yet. We don't take the perspective of the client. We work with. yeah just what. We preach model the behavior. We want to see you determine what is appropriate break for them. you know. that's something. We need to measure. How long does it take them to call themselves. You know might we wanna give some input on like okay. You're over stimulated right. Now you're hundred different emotions and me have inexact anxiety. I know what that feels like and to happen either exploded shutdown thankfully. I'm the shutdown person like three days. I'll be gone like leave me alone. I need to gather my brand together in process this That came from really people pushing pushing pushing pushing the asked. United states should just give me a break and now my brain is in severe four load. Is overheating smokes. Coming out of my ears in We need to give the these. These are tiny little robots these earnshaw and they're human beings and they deserve the same sort of respect that we expect each other to give each other and so if they need a break we need to offer that and we need to understand that we be able to take five minutes to get together because the skill set they. We cannot teach the skill. Set in a heightened state so we have to wait for them to of down and then put that teaching procedure. Otherwise it's a i said and they're never ever gonna win it. Yeah and I i don't. I don't just study behaviorisms behavior. Ism it's wonderful. Radical behaviors is amazing. It's fantastic science But radical behaviors is a science of description. We describe what we see which means we don't try to explain. We just try to describe so there are other sciences out there. Scientists have explanation that coincide and and Radical behaviors can improve those scientists and vice versa. So i love studying Into canal aji I love looking into neurology. Neurology neuroscience neuro psychology. That sort of thing. So what's happening when somebody's escalated is they've got an if getting these wrong. It's okay like it's perfect. Please don't quote me like go study at yourself. They got the effort. Effort in cortisol coursing through their body when they're escalated and there is a actual slope. 'cause when that's in your system you can't just shut it off now you can. You can do things. You can learn skills that can help you manage it but those are skills that even adults struggle with and so i wouldn't expect a child who has had you know not a lot of experience in their life to to to know this. I wouldn't expect a most teachers to know this because they don't have opportunities to practice and land they've that they've got education years of experience behind and sometimes so it's it's affording that humanity and understanding it from a scientific perspective and where the where where trauma comes in on. This is the neurological effect and the neurological effect is is pretty bad when it comes to an adult like you can have negative really bad negative effects on the neurological network when adult experiences trauma. But when it's a child that's when their neuro their most neuro plastic when when their their brains are most flexible. Which means that if we take the wrong approach we can cause big damage and if the wrong approach was taken before because somebody made a mistake because parents and teachers and people make mistakes. And then we perpetuate that mistake and we increase that neural network in then we're adding to that damage and instead of being a chance for recovery in and and for the individual to be able to lead a life that they want to lead now instead they're responding to their environment and it's creating an environmental mismatch is the term that apply contextual behavior scientists use With love it. It's i think i'm an acs guy. 'cause i love all this cross disciplinary stuff. Not if you ever wanna if you haven't had a chance to a check a check out david. Sloan wilson this view of life. Amazing book amazing perspective But yeah so if you if you have that environmental mismatch what happens when they go out into the real world they struggle and they suffer and it makes things worse for them and for everybody around him. And and that's i think a big part of the challenges that we face it as a society as we get so wrapped up in well. They need to take perspective. They needed to figure out how to respect. What about us. Like do as i say and as i do right i. I remember when i was in classes lake on. It wasn't that long ago. 'cause i'm just going on two years the bbc a ba cheers va because sherwin the b. Be an my undergraduate was more on the clinical psych track What made me switch was really. I didn't believe in medicating people calling it. A day There had to be a way to change behaviors and when i was introduced into the behavioral psychology component. I was like oh my god. this is golden. Do we need medication. Sometimes to open that door for us absolutely but instead of increasing medication after increasing De trying to find the root of the problem. Bali have the door open and work with it I look at all of that stuff. But when i got into this field that is just like whoa pump. The breaks here I'm not a drill. Sergeant matt here of our orders so i in my mind was like need to figure out if there's another side to this and so i started doing research and i found dr. His imagined found up And people like that. And i'm like okay this. This is my groove. These are my people. I understand in can relate and i ended up canavan where some bees tell me lap movement. I'm pretty sure. I wrote my paper and math in my master's program on the seven dimensions and act. So yeah i think it is well in this is this is the point that i like to make with act act as self management skills like baby a a big part of aba is self management right. That's those are some that there's a lot of research has been done on that into what act is so Folks if you're not familiar with it is except is acceptance and commitment. Therapy were training. The tea can stand for either And there's six discreet skills that you can learn and you can practice them and it increases as act. Individuals call it psychological flexibility and. It works really well. And it's based off of an experimental analysis theory called relational frame theory which is a continuation of the research that in n. theories ation that the f. skinner proposed under verbal opera. So it is. Aba as you can get so I in fact. I'm gonna. I'm gonna throw this out here. I hope you don't mind. I'm actually starting a second. Podcast called act the act natural podcast. And i'm going to be having stephen hayes coming on that podcast in november So i'm really excited because steven is one of the the main researchers that started the process of of our t. and act there were others and i don't want anybody out the door And i'm hoping to to get a quite a few of those other folks out there to participate. And i have some other people might up Who who participate in the research in in that sort of stuff but That is actually a perfect example of naturalistic because You can you can use of active principles in teaching these skills in naturalistic settings can also do it. In contrast settings of course you can also try to do some. Dt style stuff with it but because this is a self management skill and these are skills that we can learn to manage ourselves It's really important that you practice it naturally And anybody who's familiar with act while there's a lot of verbal components to it. It's it's a. It's a hugely connected to verbal but i have incorporated act into working with with clients all levels. I've incorporated using it with a non vocal clients. I've incorporated using with little kids with with tweens teens adults. It's it's really important and and also it's really important for my own health. Yes yeah when we get stuck in in our kiddos They get that level of which i mean. I can totally relate when things are not fun and things are not engaging learning becomes very aversive you get that pushed back in. Some people will call it oppositional behavior. It's really that it's so miserable and aversive that they just don't wanna do it. And i had a i incident in school where it took me much longer to write my paper because the person that was reviewed To me and act actually helped me. Humor just had to accept. That was his personality. Move on get it done because me not doing when i really love to do a want to actually holding me back. And if teaching the kids that yeah you're not always going to have the greatest teacher or the greatest person that's going to make. Everything is so much fun sometimes. Just fateh push through that little bit and make it fun in your own beacon. Funding your own There's been times where i've been classes for. Salsa dry is crucial. Figure out a way to do list because my gosh if i don't i've never going to retain anything and i mean act gives you that tool set that you're not stock. It's not easy to apply to yourself all the time so Kinda bring it back around again to the the naturalistic versus dtn. How they don't have to be opposition to other You and i talked about the slow bit by. Felt like the audience might wanna know about this so tracing Tracings a big deal Because it's it's a a cusp behavior. That the leads towards Being able to do other things like writing and drawing so many different things there. And i had a client who hated the tracing program just hated it and we would use a whiteboard marker in laminated sheet and he was supposed to trace do all these different things and it was just so aversive and this client loved goats and we'll talk about goats all the time and so i was like. Hey you gotta keep goats inside the the pen. Can you draw the fence so the goats can stay inside and that worked the first few times but then he wanted to go get out so i was like okay. We'll how there's a monster that you're trying to get protected goats with and You know so now is to keep the monster inside dependent and that that transition to is right about how we'd time so as now we want to save the village from the mustard and then you know all sorts of things like that and we master that program so fast. 'cause i showed the other rb a bt at the time how to do it and it was it was done across multiple people and then there was a point where I put the sheet down. And i i in the marker down turn around grab something out Grab something else in turn back. And he traced all of them. He's like look. I got the luxuries. You'd have to help me. That is awesome. And that's like the moment to live for just like marine. I seeing than anything else is is seeing something that you know as either boring or they don't like all of a sudden they're like it's amazing sorting as the ones that i am like. Oh my gosh dumping stuff out again up. The one way that i found to naturally present that is clean up and these items here these items here new teaching to naturally sort to when we clean up toys i have like these little ears and the cutler whatever and i'll play a game with them never be like alright clean up a little bare stone here on triple bears going here and there sorting naturally without even Plans that i'd walk in look even dumped the cups and they'd say sorry i was like oh my god. No it's not generalizing to stock. Yeah there's other ways to do that too along with that like it doesn't have to be just clean up because i was thinking like lego's lego multiple colors and things and so we're building something together and this is also parallel play and One two however many step instructions that you want you could do. We could do wrote multiple types of programs along this line. But it's like hey we're building this together. Can you hand me five yellow blocks. I need to green ones can get me some green ones. Hey what do you want me to get for you. Like don't don't forget to take a turn like you don't wanna be the only one place in demands you get their human so you gotta let them be able to place demands to show that there's some give and take there and let legos are good example blocks There's so many different snatch ways to play You can you can be playing in sand and you can have sand molds shovels. You could say heiki hammy the green one order now. How how tall pile can you make. Let's make a toll mile together and let's see how many blocks tolerated is counting so many different ways. It's it's limited by imagination. And that's the thing that. I love about naturalistic teaching. Is it's literally limited limited by immagination so play and that's my thing is like lift. Let's get to work and have fun Let's teach these kids to have fun. Let's remind them that life is wonderful and learning occurs from the time we make an probably even in her sleep. I mean has to be fun and when you get that. Boring dry is professor. You don't remember anything you get that one that danced around the the front of the classroom but drew things in great colors in came in just like a clown. You're going to remember everything you said. A professor saying remember him he History teacher one of my favorites actually He would jump up on the table. He was a hawaiian re race. Chinese-american and He actually served in vietnam and so he had quite a few interesting stories there but he would get passionate and he would get animated and you know. He wasn't a very tall man but he jumped up on the table. And i missed this class. unfortunately it was. It was the next semester but he got so animated he. He put his fist out on the podium shuttered the glass we had a poster northern high jeremy being struck and he would reference south hurt like to me was the ethics person and to this day. I that was a class that i struggled with. But i can tell you. I can remember the do's and don'ts and i can hear his wife is saying that are he would make less. Just be up and it was. It was all about the presentation and engagement. So i mean i need to remember. That is for teaching children. We're gonna have to get silly we're gonna have to. I think another part of that too like a lot of sound. Just gonna call this out. Because it's what i do so a lot of companies have these extreme dress code this the deal. I need to go on there looking like a business professional. You are playing with kids. Spit on you're gonna get stuff thrown out you probably You're going to be playing on a floor outside. That's something that we need to consider too is if we're going to encourage our staff to play and get down and dirty we're gonna have to be a little more lax. Let them let them wear stuff. That is easier to move in general and and you know. I hadn't really thought about that because my company is is there like yeah like you said. There's definitely a dress code for certain aspects but it's more it's more having to do with cultural norms. Not so much. The you have to look like your business in fact I'm wearing shirts. Were at work. It's red hot data taker. And it's it's just a t shirt avid And that's the big thing is like. Yeah we need. We need to have fun. I will throw out there Tailor your Your presentation to the person. 'cause there's some people who don't wanna be animated. Some people who prefer to be more calm got quite class her like that. Where it's like you're weird. And and they want to be the more calm but that doesn't mean you can't tailor that approach another history professor of mine very calm very soothing lot relaxing voice but he would drop little references in and he little jokes in the most subtle of ways and every his classes were always full always full and Like the way that i The way that i act around one client is the way that i'm going to act around another not because i'm changing who i am. But i'm presenting a part of myself that that is more appealing to them I'm all those things like. I can be very calm. It's really funny. The other day appear with like brian. Are you okay. And i'm just focused. It's okay right. I'm just really quiet like that happens. Sometimes like it's all right like we can we can be multidimensional as people because that's what people are we're not robots we don't We don't do just one thing all day every day and we need to let our clients know that too. So you know like sometimes we have another client who In the past struggled with Some aggression and stuff and it would be because of stuff that happened at school and he would take it out on like because there's demands being placed in and that sort of thing we we worked on making sure we were very trauma informed and kind and that sort of thing but sometimes that that frustration internally happens. We're working on the stuff. So that he could learn how to cope with that and how to stick up for himself elia Because that's a big part of that too But like so we one time had a really big behavior and I got him out of it by asking him how he felt. And he's like. I don't know and i'm like well. How do you think. I feel like i don't have to. We don't have to main con- maintain constant neutrality on everything in that particular circumstance. I asked him how. Do i feel like i maintained neutral in that. I wasn't getting mad at him crying or anything like that. But i'm like how do i how do you i feel. And he's like dad. Yeah i feel really bad right now. They're really worried about my friend. And i'm really sad that he's taking out his his frustration and anger on me that that feels bad and i really want you to be. Okay one i wanna help. So how can i help. What can we do. If you don't know. I can make suggestions like but what what do you want to do. And we talked it through. He he wasn't. You know articulate like an adult or even older teenager but we we talked through his level where he was at and when we came out the other side he said brand. Can i have a hug over here. Like hold the tinners. Yes you can have a hug. And that is net there. It is the nominating kids stat. To when you see become so. I had a kiddo that i worked with analyst said he would have kern holy from beavis and butthead has he would go from being like the sweet adorable and then he would start playing that style up in. You know there's noise all around people are talking. We're asking him to do things. And you would see him go completely rigid wing wing all over the place to the point where there would be aggression and it was like okay so at this point we need to really pay attention to this body language cutback back on the outside noises or him to say. Hey can you guys be quiet the day. He told me to be quiet with a stamp my life. And you probably didn't worry about the please do you. You're just like yep no honored. You honored the communication because politeness in shape later. Let's worry about the communication. You didn't try to attack me. You told me to be quiet. I'm quiet for the rest of the you will not hear another word and then over time and this. This is a teenager over time. He learned to tolerate the fact. That i'm a little bit. Gabby and he kinda give me a look in. Be like all all done bad okay. Well that brings up perfectly the toleration thing 'cause like We all have to learn to tolerate certain things like that's the way life works like the world shield with with aversive stimuli unfortunately and and if we can't control the environment definitely Like loud noises are definitely not a preferred stimuli for me. But whenever i go someplace that has a subway or metro or something like that. Unfortunately it's loud and if you wanna ride and not spend an arm or leg on taxis or parking spots or whatever you gotta learn to tolerate it. Same thing for hot conditions. I am very sensitive to heat. I am not a fan of being hot. But i had to learn how to tolerate that in the way that we learn to tolerate it. I think when we're working with individuals students children clients. Whatever you want to like the way that we need to do it with kindness understanding and And in natural settings not Staging aversive nece and being like i got you gonna put live like no no no please dear. God no does stop. Stop no. don't do that but like that. That circumstance you do described as actually very natural environment to learn how the pala rate And communicates that was a functional manned. So that client communicated what he wanted and like. It's gonna get noisy so it wasn't like you were like no. We're not gonna get noisy but you're aware of it and then over time. He learned to tolerate it there. You go but he also learned at any point in time he could just feel like i'm all done because you know it took real Mean he he was a teenager. So i sat down a nice unlike. Look if i'm annoying you. I know a lot of people like please tell me i will stop. And he looked to me like haw- What's yeah the next time though is like you know doing my conversation thing. In haiti you just looked at me and he was like be quiet. And i was like l. k. And i did and and after that you know he he kind of gave me a little. Because i gave him a little i modeled behavior of like. Hey if you if you tell me. I don't know that this is. I mean i know something is bothering you because obviously hit me but i don't know what it is so just let me know I guess it was. Because i was to munch but wasn't sure it could have been the pitch in my boys could have been anything you know when people will say oh. The behavior comes out of nowhere. Doesn't know where there's something medical could be number of factors but my kids. It was just the fact that i was spending too much time talking and he was trying to do something else. Wanna hear what i had to say and rightfully. So i mean i i was about. That was a huge. Aha moment for me that it's like okay. Then i had another client. That was younger. That was the same way and what it was is he would get over stimulated with the video game and he just simply couldn't ask for break and so on with see At rigid behavior. Weekly a break please. And he would make the break sign and we would do Like this shoulder give him a big pile compression. Yeah and when you're hugging someone that's tense even like people that are listening. Just go and hug your spouse or hug your child. You'll feel them take like this. It's almost like a release braff. That's that's negative automatic reinforcement. Yep we would do that behavior. It never went into the aggression drops significantly because we were catching it before it happened. So it's really about being observant and catching those moments too. So when playing and you're like oh like every time we play. This is what happens. Let's pay attention to what's really going on here and and test untested that's a big part of it and I wanna rewind just very briefly than we're actually about out of time But there You mentioned something I gave a little. He gave a little. You mentioned that in that suck with me because that's that is that is the The quintessential summary of my experience working with kids is if i give a little they give and sometimes i have to give a lot because they have a history of distrust and so i need to give a lot before they willing to trust me but that that giving is of important part because that's about building that pair building that rapport building that relationship. That's what this is. all about. Behavior is about relationships. That's why it's significant. Because if we were just lohan creatures out in the wilderness it would be survivor. Don't right that's that's that's how it works. But we're social creatures. We work together even if you're less social I've mentioned this friend of mine. Who is less social before multiple times. And his his thing is. He's okay not hanging out with people when he's alone he's alone and ways around people around people and usually when he's around people's when he's at work so it's out of necessity but whenever he and i are around each other we talk and we have really reinforced conversations and there have been multiple days whereas come home an hour and a half two hours late and i had to text my wife said. Hey second a conversation But it was released. Not because i really enjoyed it. I let her know afterwards about that conversation because we enjoyed being around each other and so he is a friend. Even though weakens can happen. I extended invitations. Let him know that he's welcome. But i also let him know. Hey if you choose not to come. I am not offended in the least in fact you do you just know that you're always welcome and that's that's it right. There need to do that with our kids. Their people this this weird idea that children are property. It's so weird. They're not their people. They never were property. Just because just because they came from you or your client or whatever it is doesn't mean. They're not their own autonomous individual. So we have to respect that and that means if you give a little you get a little it takes a village at that is another thing that when i first heard that saying i don't know who originally came up with it but i was like it does allege If we have to be able to identify people's likes and dislikes and that that's one of the things. I like to teach the kids to like. We're playing at the park. Were watching. so so what do you think they like or don't like If they don't if you think they don't like it don't force them to do it just because you like something doesn't need somebody else's wind alike it We teach all of these concepts. We do it and play. We do it in wonderful ways but then stuff that they don't like we don't find a way to get them to like it instead. It's like you're going to this. Because i told you to do it. I think that's the significant part that needs to change will I'll give a good example of that chores chores or struggles like torture hard and our center. If you're you're chores are part of programming. Especially if it's a challenge but the instructions. I give to the keys i model. This is instead of saying it's time to do a tour and then the rb g stand there. It's like hey. Can you help me do this or would you like me to help you do this or that. Sort of thing and What are bt's like. I usually do about ninety percent of it. And i'm like so what's your point like. If he's doing it with you it's being done and then and then what you do. Is you shape that see gradually build that you have that report you shape it and you're like hey you grab that for me and i guess what it was eighty nine percent. They did eleven and all man. I need your help here. or i can't help you today. 'cause i gotta take care of this other thing real quick could you. Could you get started. And i'll jump into soon as i got this note written like it's give a little and then they give back and that's the foundation of of what we do is it's about Creating those natural contingencies so that it generalizes and then it comes to the point where a mom let me know that one of the kids got up from dinner went to the sink. Rinse their dish. Put it in the dishwasher. She psychosis kid and then he went back to the table and they cleared other things off the table and put it in the dishwasher. She's like who is this kid and she has like. So what did you do. She's like i gave up and gave him a big hug. It said thank you. And i'm like perfect. Yes perfect get a given that little bit of extra. And i mean again i keep saying that those are the moments we live for. That's why we do what we do. And i know it's gonna take a lot of time for our profession to change. How some people you. It's gonna take a lot of work but identifying the issues and to them because we all know. It's it's behavior we revert back to what we know what we in the past so in order to lessen the attempts of doing that we have to remember however acted people what come was of it and moving forward do our best to ensure that we are taking a quality control have to hear wing wrong in order to fix it. We have to be able to admit that. Hey this is exactly the way So i think as for it in a field. There's more and more of us that are kind of coming forward and being like. Hey we've had enough of this. You're going to more about this place stuff. We're gonna talk more about this fun way of doing things and we're gonna remember that there has been trauma and where and we as a feeler responsible absolutely and part of that. Responsibility is commitment to stop and change and improve. And that's that's released. Listen take the perspective of the person. That's telling us this. Don't just show up down. This is need to be heard. And you need to find a way to help one another and i would add on this particular topic when you hear. Somebody share about how they've been hurt. Traumatized your instinctual reaction is. I don't do that and it's so hard not to i've done it. I said it I regret it. The best thing to do is to say. Thank you for sharing that. That's the best thing that we can do in the best thing that we can do is to put that knowledge to action. And that's where that's why. I'm such a big fan of trauma. Informed behavior analysis and trauma informed care in all human services period. It needs to be in all of them teaching hospitals. I've heard some horrendous things that have happened in psych wards and and regular hospitals. When someone's having a hard time like it just needs to be the basic standard like it can't be something that is a talking point for a center or for a place to say you know. Oh yeah well. we do. Trauma informed care. So that's why you should be coming to us really what it should be. It should be the basic level of expectation across the board unless they should speak louder than words. So will we get online. We say oh not my aba. Or i don't do that. That's a lot of talk in if you look at it from our f. t. but if people are coming into contact with the contingency the frame is very weak so we need to start showing her actions. This is what we're doing. We don't need to talk about it and then tell the world like hey you know we have this great xyz. Now show it. This is what this is how we do it. And that's okay You're discrediting anybody is experience. But you're just showing you know like training on holiday. Hey this is what i expect from my staff from my people from my parents except in the takes that that component out of there to save not me can guarantee every one of us have done like i've ran. I contacted programs. Not crowd of to it. Traumatized me traumatize might client by anna position. Our have to yes. Thank god but not everybody is in that position so are ready to be even so we just have to work together to keep showing like. Hey we don't have to do these things we can do them. This towel and modeled the behavior and i say this over again. We need to model the behavior who want to see him. Opus reinforced to change that. We want to see in the world. This is way is my slightly modified gandhi. Saying i love it. I i'm like. I'm so glad that i found you and ryan and brighton poly like you guys have been like really huge out of china in. It's his. I found you you all end facebook at a time where i was struggling. This is really what i wanted to do with my life and really struggling to the point. Where did i just waste eight years of schooling for something that i'm never going to be able to do because it's horrifying for me and then when i i found you on facebook and i started watching it was like. Oh my gosh buried in a deal at Fight me the group. But listening What my you know. My mind has been saying like this is what needs to be done so i think in to. We need to find her tribe and thankful for you guys. Just please know that i am. I am flattered beyond belief that you put me up there with iran. And and brad and paulie and brett. 'cause those guys those guys influenced me They they they're the ones that that were the big influence or to well. I can do this so thank you that that is a that is a view a beautiful compliment and i hope. Actually when we're we're in this feel might feel like we don't so again here we go. We don't fit into our social environment. You start to back off wonder like hey to actually long hair but then you know i need to move forward because this is what's right and you get that cognitive dissonance or struggle within yourself like you're fighting yourself so when you find others that are like minded that are on the same track. It's just like that spur. You really take off. I feel as a person in professional. You're not saying that everybody is perfect and one is better than the other because everyone brings Get good ideas and such to the table. but really i don't fill voting more. That is an end to be able to a podcast. I've never ever. I can't even talk during zoom meeting. Because i get so like tripped over my words and you know my my job is i was like. Hey you're supposed to participate during the day as was like i don't feel like i'm always with like minded individuals if i don't feel like i'm with that it doesn't reinforce me to speed so i think that you guys reaching out and doing the groups and doing that. You're doing encourages. People like me to come out and be like hey here at an ready for this will thank you. Thank you so much. But we're we're about up with time. I actually have another appointment. A it right to but thank you. So much for coming on gina q. It's been a real pleasure. And i hope to have you on again. If you're comfortable with it just remind folks oh behave is an open source education podcast which means you can use a whole end parts towards education and and dissemination of analysis the only requirement is that you site your source so that folks can come back and find us so thank you so much for joining us and and and.

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740: How Defined Values Lead to Long-term Happiness | w/ Russ Harris

The Art of Charm

1:01:03 hr | 2 years ago

740: How Defined Values Lead to Long-term Happiness | w/ Russ Harris

"So you're here for a reason you listened to the podcast because you want to get better at developing your social skills. But even though you're taking action. Maybe you feel like you're just out there on your own and you are struggling to get over the hump. What you needed someone to guide you help you see you're blind spots and coach you through the biggest obstacles that are slowing you down. And ultimately, hold you accountable. And we realized that many people listen to this show have never been coached before. And don't even know what that experience is like, so if that's you and you're ready to try something new to have someone listened to you and make a suggestion or two about the next step. You should take. Then hey, two thousand nineteen is your year, and we're really fired up about that. So the art of charm is offering twenty charm coaching spots with our coaching team. And hey, maybe even wanted to those slots, I with AJ or myself Goto, the art of charm dot com slash. Get coach to learn more and apply today that is the art of charm dot com slash get coach. Welcome back to the art of germ podcast, some Johnny, and I may Jay, and we're so glad you joined us on our weekly show. We're we're gonna share over a decade of coaching experience to sharpen your social skills and give you that edge. If you're new to our show, we were on live in person social skills training programs here in sunny, Los Angeles. We all everyday people advance their social skills in every area of your life. Whether it's networking business. Dating building out your social circle or even improving those relationships with your family and friends. It's interesting that we live in a time with so much technology. I think people are forgetting the basic functions of those soft skills. So if you want more information on those programs, you could check us out at the art of charm dot com for more now on this show. We're going to give you an insider's view of what we do at those famous boot camps with episodes full of content that we're pulling straight out of our program to give you something you could work on in your own life. Just by listening to the show. We do this by focusing each month on one theme as you might know. This month is all about happiness, and we chose it. Because we want to give you the best start to your twenty nineteen. And we now everyone is starting twenty nineteen with new goals and resolutions, but we also know that those resolutions don't show up without hard work. Or even some setbacks to put it simply we're all going to hit the wall at some point in the process. So we want to give you the tools of set you up perfectly. So your life has meaning and purpose. And you're ready to get out there. If you're new to the show in the last few episodes, we define what happiness is. And we looked how quality relationships are the single biggest contributor to that long lasting happiness. We're looking for. But this week we're gonna take a different approach to happiness. That's right. We're going to talk about negative emotions, and why they are kind of your best friend when it comes to happiness, and to help us in pack this crazy idea we're talking to Russ Harris, the author of the happiness trap. Yeah. He's going to tell us why it is so easy to get stuck in. This mindset that happiness has to be per. Manent and we're all striving for actually that's not very good for you is not good for your health. That's for sure. And be sure to stay tuned to the end where we're gonna hear Russ talk about the biggest mistake, we make when we misunderstand our values and as always at the end of the month, we're going to be doing QNA. So make sure you get your questions ready. You can send them in to the charm dot com slash questions. That's right. Every month. We answer our listeners questions we'd love to hear from you. You can also hit us up on Instagram. We're at the Arte charm. I'm there at AJ harbinger. And Janis there two at AO. See john. All right. Let's do this. The low Russ welcome to the time. Thanks so much for inviting me, let's great to have you at this. Dr Harrison, they joining us on the call the way from Australia. Johnny are huge fans of your work. And we spoke with a colleague last month, Dr Steven Hayes, and now, we're we're excited to delve into happiness and values. These are two topics that we focus a lot on the show and in your book the happiness trap. You talk about happiness myths, and how they're so pervasive in our culture. Could you tell our listeners what these myths are and how they came about. Yes. Sean. Well, thanks for inviting me, you know, the books cool the happiness trap because popular myths about half an us will make you miserable. I if you base your life on them. And I suppose the most common of these kind of happened dismisses the idea that happiness is feeling good. Yes. Most people what's happening. They'll say it's a good feeling or you know, the MacQuarie dictionary, which is Austria's kind of number one diction redefines happiness as a state of pleasure. Okay. Contentment, but advance your idea of happiness, then there's no such thing as lasting happiness because like how long a happy feeling or a good feeling last for. I mean, let me ask you guys happiest day of your life. You know, how long we feeling happy for before? There was some frustration anxiety or disappointment right will live here in LA. It's typically when you get in your car and drive away. Exactly. So if your ideas that happened, this is feeling good. You're going to be constantly battling with the reality that good feelings don't last very long and linked to that myth is the idea that the natural state for human beings should be one of happiness is this idea out there if you give people food water and shelter and employment and good social structure that just naturally gonna feel happy. But I say to my clients will the time that the, you know, emotions like, the weather you expect them to change continually. It would be weird. If old I every day was a kind of warm spring sunny day, right? You expect to feel fear and sadness and anger and disappointment as you go through your life. If you're going to live a full human life, you're going to feel the full range of human emotions, not just the ones that feel good. So if you subscribe to this this myth that the natural state for humans is happiness. Again, it sets you up for a struggle with reality. And then building on top of those two misses a third myth this idea that you know, if you're not happy you'll defective is something wrong with us. You should think. Positive feel good be happy, don't worry. And if that's not the case, there's something wrong with you at and, you know, my my twelve year old son came home from school. This is about a year ago when he was twelve and he he said, I'm depressed that what do you mean? What do you mean, you're depressed and what happened with? I don't know. If you guys had the craze for fidget spinners over there. You know, when they would you know, they were huge here, and he'd been playing with his fidget spinner against the teachers instructions and should take an off him, and she wouldn't give it back to him. And so he came home and said, I'm depressed because she wouldn't give me back. My fidget spinner. But this is what's going on it? It's like the these pathological terms such as depression creeping into everyday usage and replacing normal language such as feeling a bit down or a bit sad. So, you know, if you're not happy, there's something wrong. And and then on top of all of those three missed they lead lead ride to the the kind of biggest happiness to trap of all. Which is if in order for me to have happiness I need to avoid in scape. The unpleasant difficult fulsome feelings and replace them with the ones that feel good. You know, this kind of Rena feel good society and for the first time in human history. Happiness is now being defined as feeling good. Whereas route most of human history it's being defined as doing good in a living your values doing the stuff that's meaningful. In life. And so all of this sets people up just to struggle with the reality that life is painful and difficult and doesn't teach people how to deal affectively with the painful emotions that are a part of living, Richard meaningful life or concertedly. See the language changing around that. I think a lot of us in the west, especially with social media tend to be overly dramatic about everything. So of course, who's going to pay attention to us for not going over the top with some of these descriptions about how we feel at all it goes to get the one thing that you've talked about in your book of of getting that attention, and the things that we do to get that for so so that one then we're able to feel good and another thing I think we're moving into place now because self-development is there's so much of it online. People can look at it easily being stigmatized that were broken just for trying to look for. Better ways of living. Yeah. Well, exactly, then there's the flipside what you kind of get pushed into it. If you're having a down day, you know, there's something wrong with you go to you to go and take some antidepressants. You know, it's see kind of getting it from both angles. Yeah. And I think what we've found in doing this over the last ten years is just people are refusing to talk about the negative feelings in a healthy way. So as we're losing and feeling more disconnected releasing community. When we have these negative thoughts and feelings were struggling to deal with them ourselves. We internalize them we hold onto them. They become are being. And we don't have the sense of community that allows us to feel better and realize that no you're not broken. You. Don't have you happy all the time. It's okay to be sad. It's okay. To feel some of these other negative emotions that have been stigmatized. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm so glad you said that because the the again this this idea out there that you should surround yourself with happy positive because negative emotions are contagious. Don't surround yourself with people who are not happy impulsively catch the negativity of and guessing it's the same for you guys over that. That's that's a popular idea out here people blog about it yet. We've heard it in our guests negative is contagious. And you don't want to surround yourself with negative people. And and to a degree it makes sense to to wanna be happy all the time and wanna feel that you have positive people supporting you. But unfortunately, those same people can steer you in the wrong direction with their positively. Yeah. Look, absolutely. I mean want to get away from from labeling people as positive or negative. Let's just say this human beings, and we have a whole range of positive negative emotions. You know? I it's not like you're positive or negative person euro, and that has a human experience, and you know, if you're going to build loving intimate carrying relationships with other humans you've gotta make room for the painful emotions that had gonna come any part of a an intimate connection with someone else. You know, a an emotionally intimate. Connection is being able to be real about your feelings and trusting the other person to respond with empathy and compassion when you head and get him pain and struggling so now that we've depressed our listeners. How do we act on this knowledge that we've dispelled these miss? What can we do to live a happy life? So to speak. So I think the number one thing is to redefine happiness. You know, if if I were to define happiness. It's a weird I stay away from because it's such a loaded too. But if I was forced to define happiness right now on this show. I would define it as living a rich and meaningful life in which we feel the full range of human emotions without a struggle. And so let's break that damn let's live a rich and meaningful life. Let's kind of get in touch with cool values what we want to stem for in life. What we wanna be about as human beings and use those as a compass to kinda guy it is free life. Get back to the idea of happinesses doing good Rahva them feeling good. Do the stuff that's meaningful in life enhancing. And let's learn how to engage in focus and put a full attention into what we're doing. So that we can appreciate it. And let's let how to feel the full range of human emotions, most of us are okay. Feeling the pleasant emotions. But let's let how to feel. A painful emotions without a struggle. How to let them flow Fru is how to let them kind of come and go without getting caught up in them. Step out of the fight with them. Sounds a lot like living in the present. Right. When you talk about some of the stuff hanging onto the negative emotions in the past, and then focusing on what the future could be with those negative emotions. It sounds like being more mindful and present is a good start. Yeah. Like, mindfulness is absolutely. You know at the core of of is funny when I first write the happiness trap. I didn't even mention the web mindfulness until about a foot of the way through the book because back then ten years ago. Not a lot of people knew what the word meant in the last ten years the woods got out there. And now everyone knows it. A now the woods getting mixed up with all sorts of unhelpful connotations like people are often. Now, equating mindfulness. We've realization mindfulness with feeling good. You know, you kind of nailed at the core of mindfulness is being present and being present with whatever emotion. Feeling the full range of emotions that go with the full life living in this moment. You know? So yeah. Being present living mindfully, but not just mindfulness often say, you know, kind of mindfulness we've out values is like a ship without a rudder. You know, what direction where you're going so mindfulness and values together, it is certainly become a buzzword and living in Los Angeles. I think we see in everything and fact that such a buzzword people will advertise using that word to describe coffee. You know, you're having your morning mindful coffee and the coffee shop, so you can be a bit mindfulness and sit it's like, it's it's everywhere. It seems to be did you did you guys? Get the mindful coloring book craze IVA. Yes, we did. Oh, oh, oh, man. It's very few people. Who know what mindful coloring is it's well, unfortunately, he kind of this idea of okay? I just have to be mindful has that connotation of? Okay. Well, then discount everything unplugged, relax yourself. But that's not exactly what we're talking about here because it really is the processing of both the positive and negative emotions in a healthy way. That's the crux of the problem. If you're not doing that is going to lead to devastating effects personally, and the people around you and something to go along with that is a think it usually has an attachment to jogo or well more so meditation, right, right? This is your mindfulness practice. And in fact, you know, doing a little research about this and preppy myself for the show today. I had saw a YouTube video an animated one today that you had narrated talking about that very thing. Yeah. I mean, there's so many different. Ways of meditating, so mindfulness meditation is a tiny subset of all the different types of meditation out that and there are so many ways of leading mindfulness skills without ever meditating, which is great. You know, we don't have to meditate to do this stuff like in Australia. The the big spoil the kind of tops blow to the country is AFL stray Liam foot bully you. Gotta you've. Yeah. And you know, so there's kind of now to AFL teams where the entire team is being trained in mindfulness. But you don't get Australian football play is doing mindfulness, meditation, you know, but they can kind of lift weights mindfully and do that kind of womb routines mindfully and they can play the game mindfully. And when you run out onto the pitch in front of eighty thousand spectators, not knowing if your contract is going to be renewed. Then it's normal to have high levels of anxiety. But you can still play the game mindfully even when you're feeling anxious. And so this is one of the key. Miss you kind of touched on this idea that my phone's about feeling good being relaxed. But if you're walking through the backwoods of Alaska, and you encounter a black bear, you know, you can respond mindfully you won't relax. There's no Li like. But you know, you can mindfully take control of your arms and legs. And do what you need to do to survive, which apparently, you know, don't quote me on this. But apparently, you need to stand very still stay silent. And then episodes slowly move backwards because if you scream and run the ban his face off the and kailua so you can be mindful in that situation. Even when you having a full on fight or flight response, but you won't be relaxed happy. Well, this is something that you had talked about in the happiest trap of like the the beginning steps to to diffusion and just being able to as a spectator. Watch these thoughts. Come and go without that. Well, we could we could look at it as stoicism. Yeah. Not really an expert on stoicism. I mean, these ideas ancient they have been around the thousands of years and Greek philosophy and Buddhist philosophy and actually in a world religions have these. Ideas about living in the present moment and accepting pain and living values because there's a big difference between values and virtues and morals, obviously that was a lot to take in. We are going to definitely define what we mean by values because I know a lot of our listeners have struggled in that area, myself included, and we want to give everyone a rudder to their ships. So that we can take that mindfulness with values and move in the right direction. Yes. And something else that I wanted to make sure we got into of just a world today. How easy it is to anytime that we feel any sort of negative emotions to bury our attention and some other place to get away from it and so- mindfulness as the certainly not preached, and we don't think about it. And because of that we don't see the damage that affording looking at these feelings causing. Yeah. Look, absolutely. It's the default setting for most of us is when a painful emotion shows up. You know, let's turn away distract run from it to anything to make it go away. I don't even like using the terms positive and negative emotions because they they come. You know, if you if you're going to live a full human life, you want to be able to experience, sadness and fear and anger and anxiety vis a useful emotions of that. You'll struggle if you have no capacity for fear. It'd be a psychopath when if you had no capacity for sadness gonna miss out on so much that's important in terms of relationships. And it's we want to be able to embrace the whole range of human emotions. So so even just cooling positive and negative. I have a I try not to do it painful. Fish oil difficult, challenging will we talked about that in last month's theme of have building. How when we turned things into a habit. They actually become dull they become boring and uninteresting much like life in general if every day is happy than happy has no meaning any long. After. Actually, understand the difference unless you have gone through the opposite of gone through that pain and suffering. Yeah. Oh, johnny. I know. You're a genius when it comes on security, but how do you feel about bookkeeping? Well, home security has done by pup. And when it comes to the books at they're non existent. No, bookkeeping, accounting HR. Not your Ford say, how many counts have we been through in the history of AFC at this point. I can't even I can't count them. All and when you're not keeping your books clean. It's a huge headache. We know firsthand which is why I'm so excited about our new sponsor net. Sweet basically it turns all of those headaches into a simple easy to use system. That's in the cloud, even on your phone, and it also tackles revenue expenses customers and HR issues. No one wants to deal with HR issues, especially if you're a California corporation, right? 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Now, one of the core principles you write about we've touched on a couple of times already we wanted delve into this now and as an act because this is really important, and that's values. And I think again, I know we're dispelling a lot of minutes. It's almost like we're the semantics of police year, but values gets bantered around a lot and can be confusing and obviously tied a lot to religion for most people in their in their youth. So what do you define as values, and how can we actually find these valleys? Yes. So well, you know, there are obviously different definitions of values floating around so CompUSA. This is the correct definition. But in the you've talked about acts, which is acceptance and commitment therapy, the kind of muzzle the strap is based on in the app modal, we define values simply is desired qualities of action at the qualities you wanna bring your actions. So we my client signed described them very often as you Ha's, deepest desires for how you want. 'have as a human being. So how you want to treat yourself how you want to treat of his how you want to treat the world around you the big difference between values and virtues is that shoes included judgment. So I suppose that my values being loving and kind and carrying they would only be virtues. If the group that I belong to say, hey, these are good positive values. So for example in some Asian cultures. If assertiveness is your value in quite a number of Asian cultures assertiveness is not seen as a virtue. So you could belong to agree. Also, you could belong to a group and organization or a family, even if you're unlucky enough espouses virtues that don't fit with your values. So one of the rules of fun for values as you can usually say them in one or two, you know, loving go being loving kind of kindness will being kind if it requires a hall sentence. You probably not talking about a value. So. If it's something like vow shall not kill. That's a commandment. It's a a rule tells you what you can Kant. Do you can't say it in one word, but the value that sits underneath that rule is probably something light loving. And I feel that a lot of us. Get values and goals. Confused goals have the action tied to him values. Obviously we can describe in one word. Yeah. We have a little everyone gets. He's and goals confuse goals. What we want to get chief have complete of you know, you can take them off the list, whereas values how wanna behave right here right now in this moment and tomorrow and a year from now on a decayed from now, so, you know, marriage if you wanna get married some people, do you know that marriage is a goal, you know, you can tick it off the list completed dick marriage number one, take marriage number two. And if you're in LA tick Mary's number three, so, but if you know if my value is being loving, I can live that right here right now. Even if I never achieved the goal of marriage, and I can be loving even have a boyfriend girlfriend. I can be loving towards myself. F- my neighbor or my dog on my cow. My, you know, my plant so my community so many ways I can live the value of being loving in tiny little ways and big ways. And notice I can achieve the goal of marriage average number four, even if I neglect the values of being loving, so yeah, you're on marriage. Number four. You may have missed out on the value loving. Unless of course, you're living the value of novelty, so. We have an online challenge that we talk a lot about on the show and one of these challenges in our private Facebook group is just define your values, and Johnny, and I always get a kick out of how this would seem so simple can trip so many of our challenge. Participants up either they struggled to wiggle it down to just a few handful of values or they've they really stop after one or two well to add to that. I remember when it was when the challenges are now down to five, but it wasn't ten or wasn't a more than ten and when the defined your values was like the fourth challenge. And that's where we had seen the biggest drop off. And what we'd seen was that? Most people will look at the challenge. I think will this is enough and start putting together. And by the time, they get the three and then realize wait, I only have two spots left. And I there's tons of. Of wonderful values that of course, you at wonder life, and by committee to them, you're you're putting this out there. And so people will just get fed up and stop right there. However in completing that and committee to what those values are the next moment after that your life. Well, at least for a lot of people, and I see it as well, you now have a choice are you going to act towards your values or away with your values and the minute you start working towards your values? Your day changes, your how you view your next week changes. And how you wake up in the morning changes. So love to hear your thoughts on that. Because I I thought it was such a wonderful thing to see everyone working through myself. So yeah, I totally agree with that. It's a nice way of putting the values conversation is new for most people a lot of people like kind of look at me like what planet are you from jazz values. You know, unfortunately, the woods often used by key. Politicians say these are values here, you know. So I think it's it's very challenging for most people takes a lot of time. And boy is it with the F. It gives you that composite gives you that guide and you once people do identify the values. I encourage them to do what I cool flavoring and savoring so just look for little moments for out the day where you can just flavor what you're doing with a chosen value. You mentioned when you wake up in the morning when you wake up in the morning, pick two or three values that I just want to bring into the day to labor and save a so I'll pick loving and kindness. And so, you know, I'll just may interaction with my next door neighbor or person at work, or whatever let's just sprinkle a bit of those values and give it a bit of a flavor, and then savor it. What difference? Does it make? When I consciously bring those values into play. You know, what difference? Well to go longer you mentioning that people had look. That you as an alien or they were speaking of something that was just so novel and new or different. I tend to think that when I I'm forty four years old. I don't know where you're at an age respite. I'm fifty to fifty two. So I went when I think about at least the west in America in the forties fifties. And when I think about my parents generation, I am I certainly my grandparents Asian I hear you would I would hear values a lot. It was it was seemed to be that. It was a staple and talked about a lot more in life. And now we've seemed to have lost that and to go along with that. And maybe I'm connecting dots. That are not there. But from my experience, it seems that we are running rampant with anxiety, and depression, and a lot of other things that will can be. Taken care of EV people have those values together, and they're able to engage in them healthily throughout their day week month. Yeah, I think you know, I think you joining belts that Ave. You know? I would add to qualify, though, the very often values as they were spoken about generations before there was a kind of rigidity to the new sitting underneath those values with rules about this is the right way to live your values matched the runway, you know. And so certainly in the app model, we're about helping people be very flexible in the way, they live their values is not like this. You start getting into ideas about this is ri- amass wrong, then you should do this. And you shouldn't do that. Then you're starting to kind of move away from your values into the land of rigid rules, and should and must and so forth. You know, you mentioned anxiety. I mean, it is it's academic, isn't it? And I think I think values are our way for us to channel orange diety in constructive ways. It's like, you know, doing this. Kost with you right now. I'm feeling anxious. You know, you guys a lovely kinda. I can see a hero, my Skype screen. And you put him at ease. And Elizabeth here kind of holding the microphone this end. And you know, my hands are a little bit sweaty. My heart's racing goes kind of Nazi my stomach, and I'm willing to have this anxiety to do something. That's meaningful it important. You know, I I care about these messages care about getting the mountain into the world. This is a meaningful activity that I'm doing with you guys. And I'm willing to have the exile t- there to do it and eventually willing to have the Saudi then I can actually use it. You know, excise he and Hans is your performance. This is a kind of performance as you know, there's a like I've done zillions of interviews. But there's always that the pressure. There must be for you guys to I would think kind of. And so we can tap into that Zayed's. He does lots of good research showing that you can use it ended in if exotic he's who low when you're doing some sort of performance task you performance drops psychologists cool, this relaxed encompass. Since like, though. So I can use my anxiety in a constructive way. And I ain't values, you know, it's not a way to get rid of anxiety. But it's a way to what's my anxiety. Telling me is imposed on. What's it telling me that matters to me? What's it telling me that I want to do I've only got so much time on this planet? How can I use it effectively? You know, there was something that when I was reading the happiness trap. And I was looking in the values and the more looked into it. The more something from my youth had kept popping up, and and being gen X and graduated I graduated high school in nineteen ninety two and in the early nineties. There was this this art movement that came out and music and film that was basically the the slacker movement or the Slager an arc art link letter was the leader of that. And there was tons of movies, the low life floundering that sort of had they were morose and slow moving and they dealt with these characters who who? Being in newly out into the world and the early twenties just felt lost. And because they weren't doing anything productive because they were being this slackers, the anxiety and dread and the being lost in life becoming more and more within their lives. And where they were fighting for any sort of thing that they could they would allow them the fill that they had a place in the world. And I I couldn't help looking at those going. It's it all is was right here of writing down these things that are most important to you. And just how was not even on the table at that time, and I've just happy that we're able to well, we have certainly with you and Stephen Hayes and self development being. So I think it seeing a an I would say new reviving front assigns of people coming in contact with this. So hopefully, we can help some of this rampant anxiety and the president is going on. I think so I think values are had good kinda antidote towards that. It's you know. I mean, you mentioned the slack generation. I think that sense of being lost is true at every decayed of life your seed in tease people. Some people are starting families of people are wondering if they're gonna find a life partner. Some people struggling with not being able to have kids full to you the mid the mid life crisis fifty getting all sixty retirement stuff. You know? It's it's you know, it's just so easy to get lost as a human being. And I like that analogy that values a like a compass. They give you direction they give you guidance when you lost. They give you something that you can do another thing. And I were laughing about is there's this idea of foam of fear of missing out. And if you don't have your values, align that, you don't know what they are. How can you wake up every day knowing where you are? And so the minute you get that together. I guess for me for myself you see foam. Oh leaving. And now it's rather than the fear of missing out. It's the joy of missing out. It's Jomo where I know what my values are and what I need to be doing tomorrow. So when I get this call about the crazy party that's going on. I'm okay with missing that. Because I know that party and the hangover that I'll be ho- having tomorrow and the work I'm not getting done and the values that are not going to be engaged. There was are going to put me in another place of once again or anxiety, more depressed. The like it. So the foam overseas Joe. Yeah. Well, the other thing that I've for me, especially growing up I was raised Catholic and a lot of these values that you talk about were hoisted upon me. And there was judgment placed on them. And what I like about the way that act tackles values is it is one hundred percent up to you. It is not have to come from another place. It does not Johnny has his values. I have my values. Sometimes they align. Sometimes they don't. And that's okay. And having that level of self acceptance is also okay. And I didn't really get out of that until college. I went to Catholic high school. Everyone around me was Catholic was also having these values sorta shoved down our throats, so just became the norm. And then I got to college. I realize like, wow, I can actually choose my own adventure here. I don't have to just take what culture and society are telling me is value and is a virtuous value as you would say the other thing. Yeah. Yeah. That I just wanted to point out that I thought was really interesting is this analogy that values are like continent. On a globe. And they're not always seeing there's sometimes they're under the surface. Sometimes they're they're really president predominant. But we have the saying that how you do anything is how you do everything in large part, that's because of values your values orient. How you do that? How you accomplish that goal? How you take on that task that new job that new exciting thing? Yeah. Absolutely. You know, like the analogy of. We switched from the real globe to globe of the weld. If we think values is like the continent. So the global the world you can never see the mole at the same time. There's always some at the front and some of the back then not dynamic like books in the not static like books in a bookcase that dynamic they move will. So you know values may come to the front in one relationship in the morning, and then maybe different values that spin round to the, you know, different relationship in a different setting later in the afternoon. But the ones that go to the back of the globe is still there is still available. I can bring them in any time and one of the concepts that you often talk about is the reality gap. And it's it's a fascinating concept. I don't a lot of our listeners have heard of it. What what is the reality gap, and how can values as we just discussed really fit in and help with it. Well, we want to talk about the reality gap and the reality slap. So reality gap is is in any little gap between the reality that we want in the reality. We've got so we've got little reality. Apps opening up all day long. You know, and and that's when we tend to feel those uncomfortable emotions, isn't it when there's a gap between what I want. I've got uncomfortable emotions creep. I also talk about the reality slap, which is those big moments. When reality just kinda slaps you on the face and turns you upside down as big moment soup grief or loss or crisis or unexpected stuff that you never thought would happen to you and those much much how to deal with. But basically reality slaps on reality gaps upon of life, and and they give rise to these difficult emotions that we will feel and so that one of the empowering things about values is we can ask the question. What do I wanna stand for in the face of this in the face of this reality gap, whole this reality slap is difficult situation. What I wanna stand full? So it's immediately empowering question. So, you know, the the wealth helpful denies ation contract contracted me. Couple of years. Back to write an act protocol the refugee camps around the world. So they rolling it out of the moment in Uganda in Syria, and people are often stuck in these refugee camps for, you know, ten years twenty years if they're unlucky, but certainly for several years, and is, you know, a three hundred four hundred thousand people in these massive Kemps and their losses. You know, they've left the country. They've seen loved ones kill the pretty horrible places to live. You can't, you know, just magically wave a wand and think positively feel happy, but what you can do is leave your values in the refugee camp. So all day long. This choices. Do I stay in my tent or do I come out of my tent when it come out to my tent, how to treat the people in the tent opposite, a my friendly warm cooperative in carrying or my hostile judgmental. When I'm go back into my tent, and my friendly cooperative carrying till the people in my ten or my distance and dismissive and called do I join in with the community singing and dancing. I'll do I is late myself from it. So this lots of little moments during the day in that refugee camp where you can make choices that will alter your experience. It doesn't magically fix the situation or get you out of the situation. But it does alter your quality of life within that really difficult situation. Now, that's an extreme case, but it's relevant to all of us will certainly gives you a strong foundation to live your days for certain and that perspective right that even in dark moments dark places. These values can have a very strong role in our life satisfaction and our wellbeing. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, and one of the ways we got folks in touch with advice was to ask them who they looked up to in the in the refugee camps. You know, Hugh DNC Hugh de Admira Hootie respects on what are the qualities you seeing in that piss how they treating of the people in the refugee camp, and at a cool, you know, this rapidly taps into why it's not. Like, the are right or wrong values. But that tend to be some very widespread values across cultures across periods of history around, you know, love and kindness and carrying in this kind of stuff, you know. Johnny. You have this new project, you're working on right? You're launching emerge website for the art of charm. I got the shirts mugs pub Saad gets ready to go. But I don't have a website. I don't even know how to build a website, dude. Just use squarespace. It's the best option for someone near situation you can build great looking websites, including online stores like that merged site. Plus squarespace has marketing tools analytics so you can see how your merged sellin. Wait squarespace can do all of that with my idea. Yeah. Square's bays is an all in one platform that turns pretty much any idea into an online presence for you to run your business online. You can showcase your work blogger published content. You can even announce an upcoming event or special project like our masterclasses coming up and other cities, you can even own your domain using squarespace. Johnny quick. What's domain? What's domain? Exactly. Plus squarespace has built inch. Search engine optimization free secure hosting. Twenty four seven customer support and the ability to customize the look and feel of your website. So it's personal. And it's unique exactly. The idea you made real on the internet so go on over to squarespace dot com slash charm for a free trial. When you're ready to launch us, the offer code charm and save ten percent off your first purchase of a website, or domain that squarespace dot com slash charm. Values. I know is intimidating. We talked about the challenge in how number of participants in the challenge. Get hung up on this exact one. Well, there's a bazillion chat a wonderful values. You can have in your life, and obviously some are going to be more relevant than others. But would alling them down to that five and we've talked about how tricky it could be. So Russell certainly going to let us in on the best way to go about doing that. Well, you know, one thing to say is if if you really stuck then experiment try, you know, pick two or three values for a week and play around with them. And see what difference that makes men next week change them all you can change the more often pick to a free values for day in play around with them. And see what happens what you tend to find is that the the values that really speak to you will be more fulfilling voting for you. You'll kind of you'll have a sense there's a sense of I'm being true to myself. I'm getting close to my heart. So, you know, if you really stuck then just, you know, I've even had some people that just couldn't pick, and I gave them a list of fifty values and and said, all right. We'll just kind of go through them and just label them each one very important quite polish until not so impose, and they ended up labeling everything is very. Son. I said all right. Well, let's just flip. A coin. Let's flip a coin three times in whichever three values. It lands on do that for this week. And then do it again next week and do it again next week. What happens is pretty soon you start to get a sense of it. But I I don't know if you have the saying in the USA of the proof of the pudding is in the eating to have that saying, no you're gonna have to explain that one. Okay. So. Know, what pudding is of course. Oh, okay. Sorry. So the proof of the pudding me, you know, someone's cooked to good pudding. We're not gonna know if that pudding is going to taste nice unless we actually eat it. We can discuss all day long. What do you think it tastes like, and what are the ingredients? But the proof of the pudding is in the eating you go to put the spoon and taste it. And then you'll know, and it's the same values. You can analyze till the cows come home, you know, these my right values. That's not going to get you. Anyway, get out there. Stop playing around with them and track the results. And this is where the mindfulness comes in stop noticing get what difference does it make. What is it? Why am I being more? Like the person. I want to be housed this influencing my weld house this influencing others, you know, that's the answer. Well, it's funny because a lot of people who tend to get in the self development do it because they wanna learn the right way to do things. So when they get the three values they got to spots left all of a sudden. Oh, no what if I pick. The wrong value. So it's that Briggs on this whole other has gained of stuff owing down. So it's like I'll just end, right? But I love that like give it a try. It's it's okay. And as you change as you get older these values are going to change anyway. So don't get. So while end up about it even for us. I'd say her values has the listeners know in getting healthy and exercising have have changed. And it's reoriented our lifestyle and became that rudder whether it's signing up for that event or actually go to the party were making these choices based off our values. And I liked the idea of not making such a commitment to it. Right. We're not getting married to these values. We're not going to have our third divorce with these values. Try them on for day. Try them on for week. And you're going to know when it feels right? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, he can probably my dog has just come into the room and his crunching Abon here. As if the listeners a wondering that crunching sound is. So yeah, I say, you know, and and they they will start you'll start to get a sense of which values or good fit fear. Again. A common mistake people. Make though is thinking that living your values is necessarily gonna make you feel good. If you live your values it may pull you out of your comfort zone into all sorts of challenging difficult situations and at times living your values can put you in high anxiety provoking situations. But even though it's not giving rise to pleasant feelings. It does give rise to a deep sense of fulfillment of being true to myself of living life my way. Well, as you mentioned, it's it's the it's the rudder it's going to give you the the right choice to make a believe you. There was another video. I watched this morning in prep for this where it was the choice point. So where you get to a challenge. Ginger life, and now the anxiety or the uncomfortable feeling as you might be feeling in that moment will pull you in a direction you don't want to go. But so you won't have to deal with that. But your values will be pulling you in a direction that will put you in tonight, and I really enjoy there was the the animation for that was fantastic. Because it was just a fork in the road and small been there, we we've we've all been there and seeing that was like, oh great. But the best thing about it is that is leading, you know, Hugh, you have a choice to get better here in that moment, if you choose this way over this way. And of course, once you choose towards, your your values, then that's only gonna make that much easier for you to do it. The next time you have that challenge in front of you for our listeners who had that misconception around goals and values and a lot of our listeners are very goal oriented fame money respect love all those things. How can we help? Them assist them. Find those values. So they're not just so focused on the goal. Well, I think one use will question is the magic wand question. You know, wave a magic wand, you've got all of those goals, achieved you go all the fame money and status and the beautiful body, and whatever it is that you want to achieve and then. Okay. So then how would you treat your friends? How would you treat children? How would you treat next door neighbor? How would you treat your body? How would you treat someone you love when the suffering, you know? And then do you want to envisage how you treat yourself and of his in the world around you do you want to wait until the day? You may you know, it she will of those goals of rich and famous, you know, states ISM whatever you want to start living those values right now he doesn't have to wait till the day. You know, a media's full of people that are rich and famous and successful treat of people in pretty horrible ways and treat themselves in pretty horrible ways. To you know. And so my assumption is whenever I see destructive behavior. My assumption is that it's not motivated by values because you know, we've all done destructive things in our lives to our selves into others in one form or another. And I'm sure it's the same for you guys. You went living your values in those moments. You kinda hooked by your thoughts, fever, and desires, you know. So. Yeah, Manjeet won't Chievo has goals. How would you actually be in the world in terms of treating yourself and others in the world around you? Let's start leaving those qualities now other. It's a wonderful where the look at it. I did have a question that was an argument. Well, more of a debate with twelve oh, we settle it with settle the argument here. Well, it's will give it to to raise the subtle. I know that I now that I'm I'm forty five years old. I know at least the my older age, I tend to do better the more structure I have in my life as compared to when I was younger. But I don't know if I. I would have dealt with that structure, very well when I was younger, but the another conversation so one of our other coaches, and I had this debate of whether or not the five values that you would put together would work where would have. It would how it would work if they was put in a hierarchical order of those five, and he mentioned that you might have some some words on that. If if you think earlier, you said about the rigidity of those values back in fifty years ago. So I would imagine would think about it in a very loose manner. Just getting them listed in that commitment would be one. But your thoughts on that. Look, I think the most people Hira he. Feeds into a kind of moss tacit way of looking at values. If we come back to the idea that the mole like continents on a globe of the world. There's no hierarchy there. There's just kind of summit gonna come to the front and sort some gonna come to the back because it just it's going to vary from situation to situation. You know, there's probably times when you're with your friends and family, you know, that you really won't love to be right at the front of the globe. But then there might be worked situations with that's probably going to the side of the global. The back of the globe is though the values that are more important. So I'm not saying, you know, never do that. But I think I think there's a danger in listing them as a hierarchy in that it can be I've got to live this value. You know? You know, will you you mentioned that values are about doing and not about feeling I think that is a common misconception that a lot of us have another big one for us. And and a lot of our listeners ask for this is time management everyone so concerned about their time, and we try to orient our time around values, but values are not really a good guide for how much time you should be doing something. Yeah. Absolutely. So I get that old assigned to people say go to values come fleet. And that surely it never is. It's it's it's a time management conflict like the classic one. That comes up is this is family, and I kind of said, well, you know, whether you spend one hour week with your family or fifty hours a week with your family values, tools, your family out going to change your values of being loving, and caring and supportive and kind and available. You know, that's not going to alter their one hour or fifty hours. You know? It's like that one hour. A week that you'll there you available in present and engaged with your family for that fifty hours a week. How you the same? If your values that were being productive, effective, reliable cooperative. That's not going to Ulta whether you're at work for one hour a week will fifty hours a week. So the question, you know. So that's the beautiful thing about values is that you can live them, regardless of what's going on in your life. He bet they went resolve time management. I love that you use sort them in different areas of your life. Obviously, you're going to have values for work. You're gonna have values for family. You're going to have values for yourself. And it's important to at least understand those different modes of operation that we're all in because a lot of us get so tied to one of those and derive a lot of happiness and sadness from our work and only focus on that. But these values were we want separate values. And we want to be clear on what our values are. Now that we have our values. Is there anything else that we should be doing with these values to make them more impactful more effective? Well, then we want to translate values into goals and action plans. So it's a very well, knowing this my way, then what you know. What what does that look like how do I translate? So this I've talked to informal ways that you can leave us kind of flavoring and savoring, but there's also a time and place to set goals. So what are some little short-term things? I'm going to do to live this value. What is? Lunga two things what are the big over arching plans? And then once you've got goals whether the action plans, what are the step-by-step nitty gritty things that I need to do to to you know, put this into play will. Thank you so much for your time. Dr Harris was fantastic conversations around values hillside it answered some of our questions, and I know this is a topic that our audience loves to ask us about in struggles with well. Of course, I want to ask our audience to go ahead and list, those values because of how important they are. I know that it completely changed how I was going about my day and that week in that month, and I think the more you're able to engage them in a weekly basis that they lead a weekly basis. The the better your life's going to be. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's no simple solution for for a happy life. But there is a a complex way to have a rich and meaningful life, you know, and we like that definition. Of happiness. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks very much. That was a real pleasure being on the show, and you probably had a few doc wind. Jeez. And wines there and box as well in the background. So that was that was Luna's contribution. We'll credit her show. She likes her value of feeding. Yeah. Okay. Lovely. Thank you. Wow. What a great interview with Russ. You know, he took our interview from his home office, a Melbourne Australia outside of the city birds chirping in his yard seems like an ideal place talk about some happiness. I gotta say Russ lays it out in such a simple way and his whole idea around finding that meaning and purpose was fantastic. If you enjoyed this episode be sure to check out his book the happiness trap. I know John I enjoyed reading it rose also has a number of books on acceptance and commitment therapy, which is that their curriculum designed by Steven Hayes who we interviewed last November Rosa's latest book is called act questions and answers a practitioners guide so one hundred and fifty common sticking points and acceptance and commitment therapy, we're so glad you joined us and hope you enjoyed this episode. We want to give a couple of shots some of our our trauma Lama and challenge. Members are Boyega gave a talk at his high school about studying overseas. Great way to. Get out there and practice in public speaking. We gotta shout out for Sammy in our free ten day challenge group on Facebook. He just completed challenge. Number four called up an old friend the day after Christmas to express his gratitude for being a positive mentor in his life. Great work, completing challenge number four. And if you want give with deeper self development that we do here at the art of charm, check out the art of charm dot com slash challenge. It's a free ten day social skills challenge with a private Facebook group. So you can meet like minded fans of the show who are all working on sharpening those social skills. It's always great to find a place, positively on Facebook. Also, don't forget to share thoughts and questions with us about this episode. Yeah, you can send us your questions about any part of personal development. If you got questions and you want answered by us. Go ahead and submit them at the art of charm dot com slash questions. You can also find us on Instagram. We are at the art of charm. Lot of great videos of us recall. Getting this podcast of you wanna see us inaction check it out. I'm on there as well at AO, see Johnny and AJ two at AJ harbinger. We would love if you could head on over to I tunes. Find our podcast, the art of charm and share your thoughts. We love the feedback and the positive reviews. Thank you so much for supporting the show, the art of charm podcast is produced by Chris Oland with production assistance from Michael Herro. Our shows recorded a cast media St. is and sunny, Hollywood, California and engineered by Danny Lubar and Bradley denim. I'm Jay, and I'm Johnny thanks again. For listening next week is our monthly QNA episode where we answer questions from you. And joining us it'll be Kristofferson had let's build a smartphone app. That helps coach you towards a happier life. I'm glad you read that name AJ. Thanks for joining us have agreeing week. We'll catch next.

Johnny Los Angeles Australia depression squarespace Russ Harris Hugh DNC Hugh de Admira president Goto Manent Dr Steven Hayes Janis john Sean Dr Harrison YouTube AFL Alaska Jay Dale Carnegie