20 Episode results for "Stanford University"
Targeting Certain Brain Cells Can Switch Off Pain
"This is science Americans sixty seconds science. I'm Karen Hopkin all pain, it's unpleasant. But what if pain could be rendered less painful, emotionally, speaking such uncoupling might not be entirely far fetched because researchers of located a set of neurons that seemed to encode the feelings of heard that accompany pain pennies, both a sensory emotional experience. Gregory sure a paint expert at Stanford University much of the resort so far in the pain field as focused on the sensory aspect of pain. Perception in the house, sells, you know, nerves are able to detect stimulated we perceive as painful, but less is known about why most of us find pain so distressing. So sure and his colleagues set out to first dentist, those brain cells that are active when an animal experiences paying the researchers used a miniature microscope to look at the brains of living mice that technology was developed by Mark Schnitzer. Who does neuro science and applied physics at Stanford? There's microscope is small and light enough that it can be born on the head of an adult mouse as the animal behaves in the natural manner. When these microscope wearing mice were poked with a pin or exposed to mild, heat or cold sales in subregion of their Migdal is lit up. So this indicated that there's a type of cell even region of the brain that seemed to specifically encode the percent of fame, but are these sales responsible for sensing pain or interpreting that sensation to find out the researchers shut the cells down, and they poke the animals again. And so when we did that what we observe is that what animal were still withdrawing from the stimulus indicating that they could detect it. So this sensation aspect of pain was intact. They didn't seem to care about the stimulus that is. They didn't make any effort to avoid the place where they experienced discomfort, which is how mice usually to pain. The findings are in the journal science a future part of treating pain could therefore involve targeting these particular neurons, you'd still have the physical part of the pain, but the negative perception of the pain could be diminished, which means still paying but also gain. Thanks for listening for scientific Americans, sixty seconds science. I'm Karen Hopkin.
Ge Wang on Artful Design: Technology in Search of the Sublime.
"Talking tech is brought to you by wicks dot com. With wicks, you can use artificial design intelligence to create a stunning website right from your phone in five minutes or less. Just go to wicks dot com. That's w. i. x. dot com. And create your professional website today. Hi there. My name's Google professor of music in computer. Science has Stanford University, and I'm you guess, host today Fillion for Jefferson, Graham who's on medication, welcome to talking tech today. I'm going to tell you about my new book artful design and technology in search of the sublime published by Stanford University press. I wrote this book for anyone who's ever been curious, excited or concerned about technology and what it does to us in everyday life and how we as a society, my better shape technology for personal and social well-being. And by the way, does books entirely in the format the full color, five hundred page photo comic. But more on that later technology, it's everywhere. Computers, social media, smartphones, video games, robots, artificial intelligence, machine learning, drones genetics. This is the world we live in today. One that is shaped by. The things we shape with technology, much of succeeding and much is worrying are these things good for us beyond what technology does for us? What is it doing to us and how do we think about all this in today's world? Here's an example from the book some years back, I designed Carina a flu like app from Smeal for the iphone. So I'm actually blowing into the microphone the bottom of my iphone in controlling the pitch by pressing different combinations of virtual holes on the touch screen. And that's the instrument part of Carina. But it also has a social dimension. There's a globe visualization offering that allows users around the world to listen to one another blowing into their phones to make music. The GPS function on the phone is used to tell you where these other users are located. Let's listen. It. User in division. That's what we should somewhere near London. Who are these people? We don't know. That's not what the app is about off green os designed to provide a sense of connection with others around the world. If only to know there's someone somewhere out there making music by blue into their phone. So that's all Carina in. It's one of mini case studies from the book in these are the kinds of issues. The artful design explores and yes, the book is really nerdy go into the design video games, toys musical instruments, programming, language, and social tools, and being a book on design. He was it self designed as a comic book UC over sixteen hundred photos and was written over period of three years and is available now learn more about our full designed by pointing your browser to artful dot designed, and that's it for today. Thank you for tuning into talking tech. Jefferson will return next week. Talking tech is brought to you by wicks dot com. When you're ready to get your website up and running, you wanna be able to do it quickly and efficiently and wicks dot com has got you covered. They developed artificial design intelligence that creates a stunning website for you with wicks. You can create your own professional website, right from your phone, which means you can open your own online store portfolio or blog wherever you are. How's that for efficient? Just go to wicks dot com. Decide what you need a website for pick your style at your own images link your social accounts and just like that your website is ready. You'll look amazing on every device desktop and mobile, and it takes less than five minutes. Plus you can do it with one hand, so it's time to get started. Go to wicks dot com. That's w. i. x. dot com. And create your very own beautiful professional website today.
Increases in extreme precipitation cost the U.S. $73 billion over three decades
"I'm dr anthony leiserowitz and this is climate connections torrential. Rainstorms can flood homes. Wash out roads and bridges and destroy crops over the past. Three decades flooding from heavy precipitation has caused about two hundred billion dollars of damage in the. Us francis davenport is a phd student. In earth system science at stanford university. She wanted to know how much of that enormous price tag can be blamed on global warming. We've seen that extreme precipitation events are increasing in frequency or intensity and so we wanted to quantify what are the financial costs of those changes in precipitation. Her team analyzed historic rainfall trends and financial data about flood damages over decades. They estimated that between nine thousand nine hundred eighty eight and twenty seventeen about seventy three billion dollars. A flood damage can be attributed to increases in extreme precipitation. That's more than a third of the cost of flooding over those thirty years. So devonport says that people are already paying the financial cost of warming world. I think having those hard dollar amounts is really important for some of these policy conversations about what to do. Climate connections is produced by the for environmental communication to hear more stories like this visit. Climate connections dot org.
Percy Liang: Stanford University Professor, technologist, and researcher in AI
"At the end of the day we're building no systems of for the world and I think human snake mistakes have fallacies biases they're not super transparent sometimes and why Inherit all these win. Maybe you can design a better system and I think computers already clearly. How many other advantages that. Humans don't have hi everyone. Welcome to behind the attack. I'm your host Kevin Scott Chief Technology Officer for Microsoft in this podcast. We're going to get behind the tech. We'll talk some of the people who made our modern world possible and understand what motivated them to create what they did. So join me to maybe learn a little bit about the history of computing and get a few behind the scenes insights into. What's happening today? Stick around? Uh Hello and welcome to behind the tech. I'm Christina Warren's senior advocate at Microsoft and Scott. Today our guests is Percy laying. Percy's an associate professor of Computer Science Stanford University and one of the great minds and ai specifically in machine learning and natural language processing. Yeah and Percy talks about the need for a I to be quote safely deployed and he says that given society's increasing reliance on machine learning it's critical to build tools that make machine learning more reliable in the wild. Yeah I completely agree with person's point of view and honestly with Like a bunch of his other very interesting ideas about how machine learning and natural language processing or unfolding over the next few years. Some super interested in having this conversation. Let's find out what he's up to. I guess today's Percy Lag. Percy's an associate professor of computer science at Stanford University also one of the top technologists that semantic machines. His research goals are to make machine learning more robust fair and equitable and to make it easier to communicate with computers through natural language. He's a graduate of MIT and received his PhD from UC Berkeley. Hey Percy welcome. Show things have happened so we always start. These shows with me asking How you first got interested in technology. Were you a little kid when you realize that you're interested in this stuff? Yeah I think it was a round maybe and of elementary school or Middle School My Dad always had a computer so it was around but he didn't let me play with it. And what you do. He was a mechanical engineer. Gotcha and I remember maybe my first memories are In after school In middle school there was a computer lab and there was There is a hypercard which is multimedia program for the Macintosh back then and it got really fascinated and building these Militantly simple applications. But they had a scripting language so you could start to code a little bit and there's animation and all that so it was kind of fun to get into that I remember hypercard as well I I believe one of when the first programs I wrote I maybe a little bit older than you are But I do remember at one point writing a hypercard program that was Like a multimedia thing that animated a laser disc like you remember laserdisc gigantic precursors to DVD's Yeah this is really such a great tool. Yeah at that time. I also tried to learn see but that was kind of a disaster. What are pointers and all this stuff? This is sort of a formidable Formidable first language to attempt to learn I mean like one of the things like given that you are Your Computer Science Educator You know I. I'd be curious to hear how you think about that. Evolution of entry into computer science on some levels now. It seems like it's a lot easier to get started than when we were kids. Maybe but in other ways it's actually more challenging because so much of the computing environment like the low level. Details are just abstracted away and like the layering is very high. It's a lot to get through Yeah so somehow. Computer Science Thrives on abstraction right from the low level machine code to to see and we have python programming languages and At some level you just have graphical interfaces so picking the right entry point into that for someone as I think. There are multiple ways you can go probably wouldn't start with see if I were teaching intro programming class but more at kind of a conceptual level of here are the kind of computations that you want to perform And then separately. I think it's different class with talked to you about how this is actually realized because I think there is some value For A computer scientists to understand how goes all the way down to to to machine code but not all at once yet? It's I am still convinced that one of the one of the most useful things I had to learn as Like a programmer. Who LEARNED TO PROGRAM? The eighties was fairly quickly. I had to learn assembly language. Like you had to know what the low level details where the machine now granted the machines were more or less complicated back than they are now but like just sort of at that atomic level knowing how the actual machine works Just made everything else that came after it. Less intimidating yeah. It's Kinda satisfying. It's kind of rounded playing with blocks. So you you started with hypercard And like where did things go from there? Yeah so for a while. I was I I think I also learned basic. I'm just kind of tinkering around There was and Like today as many resources as you can imagine for just. No kids interested in Programming so a of it was kind of on on my own I think maybe a turning point happened at the beginning of highschool where I started participating this Usa Computing Olympiad. Which is a programming contest? You can think about is the programming contest. But I really think about as kind of algorithm problem solving contest so the the problems that they give you are It's kind of like a puzzle and you have to write a program to solve it But much of the the work is actually kind of coming up with insight of how to what algorithm to do kind of efficiently so an example might be How many ways are there to make change for Two dollars museums certain set of coins and it would be kind of Rica moment when you found. That's how you can do it. And then you have to code it up so I think that competition really got me to And a value this type of Kind of rigor and attention to detail but also a kind of creative aspect of computing. Because you have to come up with on news types of solutions that's awesome and so what was What was the most interesting problem you had to solve? In one of these competitions oh That's a really good question I think it's been a while so I don't remember all the problems but one. I think One memorable maybe class of problems is Around the idea of dynamic program and so this idea that you can write a program and if you do it smartly you can make something that would otherwise run in years millennia in a matter of seconds and I remember having to it was always these problems and you have to really figure out. What was the recurrence relation to make it all all work and a lot of problems. Were centered around. Yeah was it one of the amazing things about the dynamic programming technique is it really does teach you and it might be one of those foundational things when you're getting your head wrapped around how to think. Algorithm Mickley about problem decomposition. Yeah because like I. It's one of those magical things. Where if you break the problem down in just the right way. All of a sudden A solution to the problem becomes Possible when it was intractable before. Yeah Yeah I think I liked it because it was an that you had to memorize a bunch of things or you learn if you learn these ten algorithms and ub set but it was kind of a much more open ended way to think about Problems yeah that's awesome and so You go to. Mit As a undergraduate student. How soon did you know exactly the thing inside a computer science that you wanted to do that? I think took a little bit of evolution so coming out of high school. I was much more interested in his algorithm IQ questions and got interested in computer science theory because that was kind of a natural segue So it was and I started doing research in this area and it wasn't until towards the end of my undergrad where I Sir. Transitioning INTO MACHINE. Learning or AI. When was this what year this was around? Two Thousand Four. Okay Yeah says still like machine? Learning was people didn't use the word back. Yeah Yeah Yeah I mean I remember like right around that time was when I joined Google and I've been a compiler guy when I was in academic insult like I'd never done I never done at all and like I didn't know what machine learning was when I started and yet you know three months after I joined Google I was tasked with doing a machine learning thing. You know reading this giant stack of papers and formidable textbooks Trying to trying to get myself grounded but it means a very interesting time like two thousand four and like you know you sort of picked a great time to learn annoy idea that it would be the feel that it is today and why. Why was that interesting so I can sort of get? Why the theory was interesting. Love these problems and the challenge of what was interesting about machine learning. I mean I think there's definitely this Background would be kind of mystical aspect of intelligence that I think I'm not unique and can be drawn to so When there was an opportunity to connect the things that I was actually doing with a theory with some element that I took opportunity to kind of get into that and they say that Mit for my masters which was on Machine learning natural language processing So then that kind of Roy cemented kind of direction that I really started pursuing. And so what what I'm I'm sort of interesting because If you did your master's degree there this was right before the deep learning boom so it wasn't the same flavor of machine learning natural language processing. The folks are like very excited about right now. I like that came wider bell eight. What was your thesis about like in particular. Yes Oh my this is. Actually anti was about semi supervised natural language processing so in some ways their spiritual connection so a lot of things like Burton these things that you see today. The idea that you can use a lot of unlabeled data learn some sort of representations those were based on this idea called Brown clustering And that was used to improve performance on a number of tasks of course were data sets and compute and all. The regimes were different. But some some of US how. The central ideas were Have been around for a while. Yeah and so What did you do your dissertation on? Well it's so during my pc at Berklee did of a bunch of different things ranging from worth radical machinery into apply natural language processing towards the end of the really kind of converged on Semantics or symmetric Carson. As as a problem. So how do you map? A natural language utterances to some sort of execute of all program or meaning representation. So example is if you have a database of US geography you can ask. What's the Tallest Mountain in Colorado? Translate into a Little Program that performs Davis Query and deliver you the answer right. Yeah and the and the challenge there is like you might have a database. That's got You know like A whole bunch of geographical objects and the and like you have type which might be mounted and like the thing might have a height property and like in it's all described in this very exact way and like the human utterances are very inexact. Sometimes exactly yeah so the main challenge behind natural language processing no matter what task take is just the the fluidity of human language. You can say something the same thing in many different ways and there's nuances second. Ask when you what's tallest Mellon Hall Radio in Colorado? What's highest mountain and so on so having to deal with that? Ambiguity is I think the value proposition of natural language No pro- Processing interesting and so like when you were finishing up your degree. Did you know that you wanted to be a professor at that point because I think As you know the exact research area I think was still a little bit up in there. I was having A lot of fun with the semantic parsing problem Spent a urine Google actually working on US mattress sort of For then that powers a lot of at back. So they have a semantic partner that with the funniest name in In existence this thing called. Parsi parse phase That wasn't your thing was silly. Name bars are very memorable But I I you can. Well imagine like how this technology might be super important in search where like whole search problem is asking questions of search engine and then like the search engines understand something about the question so that it can get reasonable answers. Yeah Yeah Search Assistance. And all these cases where There's a human with some information need or some action that needs to be taken. The most natural way is to use natural language and how to get computers to understand that to the extent of being useful delivering something useful to the users. The central question and so So you you got your PhD at Berkeley. And then what happened? Next so I applied to jobs. I got a position at Santa which was very happy about Tom. Then I I took a year off to I mean in quotes a year off To do something different. I knew I was going to be a professor and write papers so I wanted to have see how I could take this technology and actually make a kind of real in some sense so I did a A post doc at Google and Was trying to figure out how to use You know semantic parsing For something and at that time. So this is two thousand eleven I think Syria had just come out of time. So I think there was a sense that inside Google that you will. We should do something big about this. And so other people and I Formed a team and we built a semantic passer that than powered Kind of relatively simple commands but then increasingly over time Got To powering questions and all sorts of other things so that was really exciting to see how the tech transfer happens from Hang on academic research to actual products and explain to folks like how it's different like building a product Where it just SORTA has to work. All the time for all of the users is sometimes different from building a building thing. That's good enough to write a paper about yeah definitely. I think there's a quite a big APP and it's between What counts as a product? And what counts. As a as a paper and the D- The desert are also different. I think in academia the the the currency is kind of intellectual ideas. How something interesting to say and And a lot of the techniques actually are interesting but they don't aren't really ready to be deployed because they'll work nearly well enough and if you're launching product it has to work like you said ninety nine percent of the time at least and can make embarrassing errors and it has to be fast and and usable so so I think there's a lot of Pieces that have to go into Making a product Also in academia people work on data sets but the data sets of are insufficient to represent the diversity of things that you would see in the real world. So that's something that needs to be Assault as well. I think there's actually a lot of interesting research problems around the kind of ecosystem of product employment which are Not so much. The focus of some academic research. Probably because it's actually hard to get an idea that ecosystem but it super valuable. So did you ever like either yourself or the teams that you work with struggle with this Split between like the sort of very intellectually interesting and challenging part of building a product versus the vary like no sort of mundane grantee Part of building a product. So at that time I wasn't interested in favor I just wanted to kind of execute so I don't think there was so much of that tension. it was just do whatever it takes to get this sissies. It's super interesting because I've had I've managed teams of people doing machine learning work and who have PhD's machine learning and like the thing that that attracted them to machine learning in the first place is they were interested in the like the core research like You know the challenging problem like how to make this very complicated thing like you know one. Epsilon better than what preceded and who got frustrated very quickly with what production machine learning looks like which is more like lab science than it is Like theoretical computer science. for instance And you know sometimes I've had I've had I've had people who you know like on. Paper looks super qualified Either because they've written a written dissertation on our machine learning to work in a team where someone who has a degree in applied physics For instance is much more excited working on the machine learning problem because like they are more interested in this sort of intuitive like approached Your wrangling the data doing experiments and And Whatnot says great that you Like you never felt that tension like that's almost superpower. Yeah I think it's I think at some level. I'm interested in solving problems and I think there's actually in my head. There's sometimes even deliberate dichotomy. Between what am I trying to do? Am I trying to build a system that works or am I trying to understand a fundamental question and sometimes research can get a little? Bit Model. Where? It's not clear what you're trying to do. I have some more theoretical work which has no direct implications on product but it's just so Intellectually stimulating to you. You pose questioning you. Try to answer it and do you think. That's one of the benefits of Academic Research. Like doing what you do in a university verses versus a company where you've got the freedom to have this mix of these Multiple things that you're pushing on. Yeah definitely feel like the benefits of academia are is is the freedom I feel pretty much full freedom to think about. What are the ideas that I think are interesting And anyone and pursue them I think also Students Come into the picture quite quite heavily. Because they're the ones also contribute he and thinking about ideas Collectively me with me so yeah I think it's really you know an exciting environment so like back to your story So like when did you? When did you decide to Do Semantic machines. Yeah so So I started at Stanford in two thousand twelve And for the first two to three years or so. I was just trying to learn how to be a professor teach classes of ice students. So there's plenty of stuff to do. I wasn't looking to join a start up But then Around two thousand sixteen so Dan Klein who is My one of my advisers Berkeley came to me and he was working on some adding machines which I known about and Basically commits me to join and I think It was a you know and I think the the reason for doing so as you know if I think about my experiences I google where you take ideas and you really get them to work. In in practice I think that It was kind of a very compelling environment and Samanta machines had a a lot of people some of which I knew from Grad School on and I think the kind of critical mass of talent was. I think one of the main main draws because you have smart people working on this incredibly hard Problem of Conversational Dialogue Systems Yes so it was kind of resistible even though you know my sanity probably suffering a little bit from that So what are what are some of the big challenges That we still have open in conversational? I so like you're trying to build an agent that you can communicate with As as you would another human being sell. Some things are like really great like speech recognition. Like turning the the utterances that come out of your mouth into some sort of structured representation like. That's pretty good now but like there's still some big open problems right yes. There are a ton of problems. I'm not worried about losing my job. Time soon I think the maybe the way to think about is that His Ravenna Opie has always been kind of this tension between breath and depth. Right we have in the eighties and seventies very deep understanding understanding systems and domains. And you could ask. All sorts of questions would do a good job once you go out and leave the confines of that domain. Then all bets are off and other other hand We have things like search which are unstructured. They're just broad. They don't claim to understand in any sense of where understand anything but they're incredibly useful just because they have that you know breath and think there's still a huge gap between an open challenge and how you can really marry the two And a lot of These kind of conversation. Oh assistance where you actually to do things in a world Not just kind of answered questions are Do require some amount of structure. And how do you marry that with kind of openness of something like search well and and just to like Just the way that I think about those two ends of the spectrum. Right is you have these like structured dialogue systems where you have to ask the question and in exactly the way or like pretty close to exactly the way the system expects you to ask the question in order for it to be able to respond on search you can get a broad range you ask the question like a bunch of different ways and like expect to get a response because the question has been answered in like a gazillion possible ways On the web. And like you're going to get you know maybe one of those answers return to you and like the hard part is like in between is of like something really understanding the question that you're asking or the command that you're giving to the system and like understanding it enough so it can then go like connect to whatever knowledge repository or set of API's or whatever else that is going to do the thing that they want done. I mean one one thing that search I think did really well is the the interface right interface promises. Nothing you you promises temp links or maybe some summaries and I think As opposed to a system where it's framed as an AI. Who is trying to do the right thing for you? And there's only disappointment when it doesn't whereas a search how many times you search and you don't find what you want and it's like okay well. It's user error. Let's try again and but that's allows you to get So much more data and signal and a potential for improvement. Yeah which more as if you have. An assistant at that just doesn't work. Then you just give just give up. Yeah there. Is this weird psychology thing right where With with the interfaces like you almost feel embarrassed when you ask the like the software question verbally and it doesn't give you the right answer like you just sort of assume you've done something wrong yeah Whereas somehow or another was searched. Like we've It's it reminds me a little bit of my mother like my mother or whenever she can't get her computer do what she wants it to do. She always assumes that it's her fault which is a weird way to approach technology. So Scott back to the work that you do at Stanford so you spend part of your time teaching students in particular like you're you're teaching the some of the AI curriculum at Stanford. And then you're doing you're doing research So talk a little bit about the teaching like how his teaching students machine learning changed over the past handful of years. Yeah so I as the main class. It Jazz Sanford is Ceus twenty-one the main a class and I've been teaching this since two thousand twelve when it started the lesson. Two hundred students in the class and Last last year there were seven hundred or so. So there's definitely the most salient thing that has happened is just the sheer number of students wanting to learn the subject matter so that has presented a number of challenges I think people are Taking the class form of fairly heterogeneous population there's Undergrads who are learning computer science and trying to Are excited about I WANNA learn about it. There's a master students who have a little more research. Experience may be. There's people from other departments who have actually quite advanced mathematical abilities and are trying to learn about a. There's people professionals who are working full-time and trying to learn about Ai. So one of the challenges has just been to how to accommodate all these The diverse population. And how do you do that It's it's challenging. There are certain things that we try to do Trying to have materials which are presented from slightly different perspectives and have You know review sessions on certain types of topics but honestly I don't have a new great us a solution. We have a lot of tea as who can help. But it's it's I think scaling education is one of those. Yeah very hard problems like what I was teaching computer science When I was working on my phd the the thing that was always super challenging For me like I was I taught To a one I think a couple of times which was like at the University of Virginia was the first serious Software Engineering Course That you talk Or programming course And like we had such a broad. A broad range of students taking the class that it was in you would have people who came in who were like had years and years of experience Like by the time they got their program like they learned to Code when they were twelve And you sort of risk every other thing that you were doing boring these poor kids to death and then you had Folks who were like coming in because we're interested in computer science And like they had almost no background whatsoever. They never programmed and like they might not even have the you know sort of analyze background. That is helpful when you're learning to code. That was always a huge challenge for me. I don't know whether I was ever any good at it or not. Yeah I think that if I had much more time I went to kind of sit down and really think about how to best structure. This I mean I think the I think the way to do it as trying to break things down into modules and making sure that people understand basic things before they move onto more advanced things. Yeah I think when you have these kind of banner courses like Ai. People take as but they don't really the land somewhere in the middle and they're trying to figure out things and it's a much more of a kind of A treading water situation as opposed to Like really kind of building up building blocks so one of the interesting thing that I think is really happened. over my career machine learning things. is in two thousand and three when you're doing machine learning stuff like you're more or less starting from scratch whenever you're trying to build a system And like now if you WanNa do something with machine learning you've got Pi- towards you've got You've got like notebooks like Jupiter notebooks. You've got all of this sort of incredible infrastructure that is available to you To like build things like my. My favorite anecdote is like the thing that I did at Google. Which is my first machine. Learning project that took Like a reading a bunch of like heavily technical stuff and like probably six months worth of very hard work Like a high school kid with Sufficient motivation like using a bunch of open source tools could do in a weekend and Which is just incredible But I'm guessing that also puts pressure on the curriculum like what you provide his programming exercises for kids where you just sort of just keeping pace with the overall feels got to be challenging right. Yeah so it's it's certainly very incredible. How far we've come in terms of tools and again this is The kind of the success story of abstractions and computer science where we don't many people don't have to think about registers to program and get even close to kind of assembly of people program Python might not have to think about your memory management and when you're working with something like Pie. Torture tends to flow. You can think about the model lane and focus on the modeling without thinking about how the training works. No of course I think in order to get off the ground and have kind of a thon project view you can get by with not knowing very much. I think to get kind of really kind of serious. The these obstruction barriers are also leaky. And I think someone would be well served to understand how what are gradients. And how computed so I think in the in the class that I teach we definitely expose students to the raw kind of the. The bare metal is so to speak for example in the first class. I show people how to do no successive gradient ascent and it's it's coated up and it's ten lines of code and not using hydrogen tends to flow and. I want people to understand that some of these ideas are actually pretty pretty simple and But you have to kind of but but I wanted people get exposed to the simplicity rather than being scared off by. Oh that's underneath the pie. Torch Rapper Yup and Because at some level all these A pieces are actually quite know understandable. Yep and I think that's a great thing that you're doing for your students because one of the one of the things I do worry about a little bit is that we have these very powerful abstractions but the abstractions make assumptions that are not necessarily correct That for instance. So Kaseke descent is the best numerical our them to fit the parameters of a deep neural network Very good technique but Like we shouldn't assume that that is a solid problem. Like in fact there was this paper at near a couple of years ago on The title was Niro ordinary differential equations where they were like modeling the Interior State of DNA and using using ordinary differential equations. And using the like fourth order. Wrong cutters something to saw which very very very different from You know so cats gradient descent and like the fact that like that sort of exploration is great that it's still happening. Yeah one thing I do. And they I classes Be Very unstructured about the framing of a class in terms of modeling and Algorithms right so you can think about Forgiven problem how do you construct them all? We could be a neuronal architecture but it could I talk about some other topics that graph. Kamal's it could be like what your vision work looks like and then separately you think about how I'm going to perform inference or do learning in these type of models and I think that the decoupling is something that I find. Students often kind of Find it hard to think about because your knee jerk reaction to solve problems go directly solve the problem but figuring out how to model the situation which specify kind of what you want to do and and then the algorithms are how you want to do it. is really. I think a powerful way to think about the world so is a nop person. What do you think about all of this stuff happening with Self supervise learning right now in natural language processing. So this is the the birds the GP t to the Excel Nats. We even just a little while back like Microsoft disclosed this new Like tearing LG which is a seventeen billion parameter model that. We're being That we've been working on For a little bit. Yeah No. It's super impressive. I mean I would have said that Four five years ago I wouldn't have predicted the the the mallet to accent which these things have been successful And it certainly not the the idea of doing so. I mean these are things. I even explored my master's thesis but but that's clearly a big difference between having idea actually showing that it actually you know Now works So clearly these methods are being deployed everywhere and I think people are getting quite a bit of mileage Out of them. I think there's still Problems that These methods are not sufficient to to solve by themselves. I mean you think they're going to be part of any probably solution for until the end of time but I think Kind of deeper language understanding beyond kind of these the benchmarks that we have are going to possibly demand some other ideas. Yeah and that certainly seems true. Even though I'm very bullish about Like the fact that we seem to be able to get performance like improving performance by making the models bigger on the things that the models are good at it. It still is unclear to me that they're going to be good enough at everything like this. This is not going to solve. Agi In and of itself. I don't think yeah I mean it's it's interesting to ponder how far you can push the train it on literally all the texts in the world. Now what what do you get gave it as many neurons as a human brain? Yeah the we're we're likely find out at some point I think there are cases where that you know we've been doing our research group at Stanford where even the the most Kind of advanced models. Make kind of the most the dumbest mistakes where you have a question. Answering system at an extra Kamo orgy replace award with a synonym. Goes from working to now working. Yeah so even with Burt and things like that. So it's it's kind of interesting to ponder the significance of that so from a practical perspective you know. It doesn't matter actually that much because you more data you can kind of get things to work and on average things will be fine but from a kind of intellectual perspective of do these models really understand language. The answer is a kind of a clue at least for me. A clear no because snow human would make some of these mistakes. Yeah that's an interesting thing that I've been thinking about at. I think I actually agree with you. But like one of the things that I've been pondering. The past few months is just because these models and it's not just the speech models like vision models. Also you like stick a little bit of what looks like une correlated noise and then all of a sudden like you know you recognize. My face is like my bosses. Space Right They they make mistakes in ways. That are very idiosyncratic to the models and very very much not like Like the mistakes that humans will make his mistakes as well And I I. I just sort of wonder whether like for myself that I am creating an unnecessary false equivalence between these AI systems and like like biological intelligent the systems where just because it makes a mess. The software makes a mistake. That human wouldn't doesn't mean that it's not doing useful things And just because You know like I can solve Problems easily that it can You know doesn't invalidate the thing that You know the machine learning system can do. Yeah definitely I I think. These examples merely illustrates a kind of a gap between These machine learned models and and humans and think it's absolutely right to think of machinery as not chasing Human intelligence more there are different Thing and I've always thought About these things as tools that we build to help us on I think a lot of. Ai Does come from this No chasing human intelligence as inspiration which has gone up quite a bit of mileage at the end of the day. You know we're computer. Scientists building no systems of for the world and I think humans make mistakes they have fallacies biases they're not super transparent sometimes and why Inherit all these when maybe you can design a better system and I think computers already clearly have many other advantages. That humans don't have they have they don't need to need to sleep. They have no memory. Which is a vast Compu- advisory boards? Yeah so so I think leveraging these which we already have but kind of further just thinking holistically about how bill the most useful tools might be a good way forward. Yeah I really love that vision like this sort of notion of thinking about the AI systems as tools like maybe thinking more about task intelligence than General Intelligence and trying to derive inspiration from biology. But like not being a not being fixated odd. Yeah I mean this whole To be goes back to the fifties in with a versus. I A artificial intelligence versus intelligence. Augmentation were Intelligence mutation kind of more were is kind of spiritual ancestors of the field of HCI human computer interaction at some level. I think that I'm more Confused offically attached to that kind of way of thinking about how we build tools but but clearly is providing this kind of massive set of new assets that we should be able to use somehow so a couple more questions. before Before I ask you something Something Fun How do you think academia and industry could be doing more together like one of the things that I'm a little bit worried about Like less so this year than last is Some of these Machine learning workloads now just require exorbitant levels of resources to run so like training one of these big sell supervise models like the the the dollar cost on the computations is getting to be just gigantic. And it's going to grow Like it's been expanding at about eight to ten x a year and so I sort of worry about like with this costs escalating. Like how can everybody participate in the development of these systems Like especially universities like even well resource wins like Stanford. Yeah I think it's a new on a lot of people's mind the compute required for being relevant and kind of modern Amal. I think there's a there's a couple of things certainly I know that companies have been providing cloud credits to academia and certainly. This has been helpful. Probably more there would be more helpful. but I think that's Maybe not a you know in some sense kind of no panacea because however many cloud credits industry gives in his. There's always going to. Have you know more that they can do in house? But I think a lot of the way I've ending of research at Stanford without on limited resources is a lot of times you can be kind of orthogonal all to to what's going on so some of our recent work focuses on methods for understanding. What's going on in these bird? P- retrained models Or how to think about interoperability or fairness. And I think some of these questions are fairly Kind of conceptual and the bottleneck. There isn't just doing more compute to actually even define the question and think about how to your frame it and and solve it And I think that Another thing which I alluded to earlier is that There clearly a lot of real world problems that new industries facing not just in terms of skill. But the fact that there's real systems with real users feedback loops there's biases and and Heterogeneous John Eddie and I think there's a lot of potential for surfacing on these kind of questions that I think that economic community would be would be helpful and kind of answering at a Nada at a conceptual level. I think product teams have probably too busy to be a were pondering about what is the right way to solve these problems but they have the problems and if these can be somehow You know brought out I think We would probably be able to leverage all the kind of intellectual horsepower in academia to solve kind of real really relevant problems. That sounds like a great idea. So two questions one One in your role is a AI researcher. So what's the what's the thing that excites you? Most about what you see on the horizon like what's going to be really interesting over the next few years. Yeah if only I could predict the future I think one of the things that has been exciting to me is programs synthesis The idea that you can automatically write programs from either test cases examples or a natural language and in some ways this is kind of of extension of some of the work. I did on semantic parsing but if you think about it from at a high level users and they have no desires and things that they want to do why. How can you best harness the The ability of a computer to know meet those needs and currently well. You have You can eat the program if you know how to program or you can use one of these existing interfaces. I think those two are very limiting if if you could have users that could kind of express their desire some more fluid way even with examples or language and have computers kind of synthesize these programs computations. Then you could really. I think of the amount of leverage that ordinary people have And also to think about how Even not Kind of end users but no programmers could Benefit a lot from having no better tools. We have these enormous code. Bases and programming is at the end of the day. A lot of in the weeds. No work and I think now the use of machine learning and from ancestors could really Open up the way towards maybe a different completely different way of thinking about programming and code. And that's kind of as a computer scientist that is very Fascinating yeah and I'm I'm really glad to hear you say that you're excited about the prospect of that because one of the things that I do worry about is we. We're now at the point. Where non tech companies are hiring more software engineers than tech companies like? It really is the case that like every company like has to deal with code and software and the value that they're going to create over the next several decades of their businesses is going to be in the sort of like I e end like software artifacts that they're creating to run their businesses and solve their customer's problems and there just aren't enough programmers on the planet to go do all of this work and like a lot of our customers especially when you're talking about machine learning like they did just can't hire like we. We have a hard time hiring all the people in the tech industry in Silicon Valley Right. And so this idea that like we could change the paradigm of computing to be. We all know how to teach our fellow human beings how to do things like if you could figure out how to teach computers how to do things on your behalf like that then opens things up to like an unbelievable number of people to do an unbelievable number. Thanks Yeah I WANT TO BLUR. The line between what a user programmer and also. It's a really hard problem. The best technologies that we have maybe synthesize twenty lines of code but think about the types of code basis. I we're dealing with is millions and millions of lines so I think as as a researcher I'm kind of drawn to these challenges that Where you might need canvas different inside to make progress Super Bowl so One last question so Just curious what you like to do outside of work. I understand that you are a classical pianist which is very cool. Yes so piano has been something that Always been with me since I was a as a young boy and I think it's. It's also been a kind of a a counter balance to all the other kind of tech heavy activities that. I've been your favorite bitter repertoire. I like Many things but Late Beethoven something. I really enjoy. I think This is where he becomes kind of very reflective about and his music has kind of inner. It's very kind of deep and so I kind of enjoy that Like what what particular piece is your favorite? So so the has a Beethoven Sonatas I play dumb. The last three Beethoven Saez Opus One. Oh nine one one ten eleven. There wasn't a pieces. Yeah and one of the things. I actually One of the challenges has been incredibly hard to make time for a kind of a serious hobby and actually in graduate school. I was Was very there was a period of time when I was really trying to enter the this or enter this competition and see how I could do which on it was called the International Russian music. Competition is in San Jose. I don't know why they had this the name but but then you know. I practice a lot as there's some days I practice like eight hours a day but I then I was just like this is It's just too hard. I can't compete with all these people who are kind of passion and then it kind of I was thinking about how. What is the bottleneck often? I have these musical ideas and I know what I should sound like but you have to do the hard work of actually practicing and You know kind of thinking maybe wistfully maybe machine learning. Ai could actually help me and In this endeavor. Because I think it's kind of a an analogous problem to idea of you know having a desire and having a programming synthesize or an assistant doing something for you have a musical idea. How can computers be a useful tool to augment my inability to find time to practice? I and I think I think we are going to have a world where computers and like machine learning in particular like are going to like help with that human creativity but like I find Kospi was like this very fascinating thing because on it's one of those disciplines like there are several of them wear. It's just blindingly obvious that The difference screen expertise in non experts is Like no matter how much I understand so like. I'm not a classical pianist like I'm just an enormous fan Even though I understand the I understand harmony understand music theory. I can read sheet music. I can understand all of these things and I can appreciate Martha orage playing Liszt's piano concerto number two at the problems There's no way that I could sit down at the piano. And like do what she does because she has put in an obscene amount of work training her neuro muscular system to be able to play and then to just have years and years and years of like thinking about how she turns notes on paper to something that communicates a feeling to her audience. And it's really just stunning Because there's just no there's no shortcut it can't cheat yeah. It's it's kind of interesting because in in computer science. There's off sometimes an equivalence between the ability to generate an ability to kind of discriminate and classify. If you can recognize something whether it's good or bad. Yeah and use that as objective function to to hill-climb but seems like in Music. We're not at the stage where we have that equivalents. I can recognize when something is good or bad but I don't have the means of producing and some of that is physical right but I don't know maybe maybe there's a this is something that is in the back of my mind and in the back pocket and I think it's something that no maybe in a decade or so and revisit. The other thing too that I I really do. I wonder about with performance. Is there's just something about Like for me. It just happened to be classical music. I know other people like have these sorts of emotional reactions to rock or jazz or country music or whatever it is that they listen to but I can listen to the right performance of like Chopin's Jim Honor Ballot And like they're they're people who can play it in like I'm like. Oh this is very nice and like I can appreciate this and there are some people who can play it And it like every time I listened to it one hundred percent of the time I get goosebumps on my spine like like provokes of very intense emotional reaction and I just wonder whether part of that is. Because I know that there's this person on the other end in there and some sort of emotional state playing at that resonates with mine and whether or not I like. You'll ever have a computer able to do that. Yeah that's I mean this gets kind of philosophical question at some point. No it was a human or computer than what kind of what a have. Yeah and I actually had a philosophy. Professor in Undergrad who Like ask the question like would would it make you any less appreciative of Chopin composition? Knowing that he was being insincere posing as like he was. You know doing it for some reason. I was like yeah. I don't know like it's a well one of my piano piano teachers Used to say that you kind of have I. It's kind of like a theater. You have to convey your emotions but there has to be some even when you go wild to has to be some element of control on the back because You need to kind of continue the thread and Yeah for sure but but also It is For me also just Vaca Plan as the pleasure of it's not just Having a recording. That's That sounds good. Yeah no I'm very jealous That you had the discipline and did all the work to like. Put this power into your finger. It's awesome well. Thank you so much for For taking the time to be with us today. This was a fantastic conversation and I feel like I've learned a lot. Yes thanks for having me my pleasure. It's awesome so that was Kevin's chat with Percy Lang from Stanford University and Kevin. You know what was really interesting was hearing both you and Percy reminisce about your experiences with hypercard and that was Percy's kind of introduction to computing programming. That was actually my introduction to programming to in your awesome. Yeah before I the web pages I was building hypercard things. And what kind of struck me as you were talking about. How to teach The next generation and talking about different tooling the idea of a or the concept of like a hypercard for AI. That's something that I think would be really really beneficial. What what are your thoughts? Well I think he was getting at that. A little bit When he was talking about his ideas around program synthesis ended the interview. So it's really interesting. I find this to be the case with a lot of people that the inspiration like the thing that I tugged you into computing and programming oftentimes sticks with you your entire career. And so he started his computing experience thinking about hypercard which is very natural easy way to express computations and still to this day like the thing that he's most excited about is how you can use these very sophisticated machine learning technologies to help. People expressed their needs for compute at a more natural way so that the computer can go help people out like I think that's so awesome. Yeah I do too. I thought the same thing when he was talking about the program. Synthesis that has some people I think. Understandably maybe freaked out right like idea that oh these things can right themselves but when you put it in that context of it might make things more accessible and less intimidating and more available across a variety of different things. I think it becomes really exciting. Yeah I've been saying this a lot lately. There's there's a way to look at a bunch of machine learning stuff and get really freaked out about it and then there's a way to look at machine learning where you're like. Oh my goodness piece of technology is creating a bunch of abundance that didn't exist before or it's creating Opportunity and access that people didn't have before to more actively participating in the creation of technology and that's the thing that really excites me about the the state of machine learning and twenty twenty. I agree I think that there is massive potential for that and kind of pivoting from that one of the things. The two of you talked about towards the end of your conversation was I guess the relationship between academia and industry when it comes to AM L. And you were talking about near the tremendous amount of computers often needed for these different projects and for these different research. Things being someone who's been on both sides like you have. What do you see as the opportunity for academia and Industry to work together? And what do you think are the? What's maybe one of the areas where there's friction right now? Yeah I think that Percy nailed it in his assessment so there's certainly an opportunity for industry to help academia out more with just compute resources although I think these compete resource constraints in a sense aren't the worst thing in the world like the the the brutal reality is that Even though it may seem that industry has an abundance of compute relative to a university research lab if you are inside of a big company doing these things the appetite for compute for these big machine learning projects is so vast that you have scarcity even inside of big companies and so I think that's a very interesting Like constraint for both academia industry to lean all the way into and to try to figure out cleverer ways for solving these problems. And I'm super excited about that but like the the point that he made Which I found particularly interesting is the fact that if we could do a little bit better job sharing our problems with one another. We could probably unlock a ton of creativity that we're not able to bring to bear solving these problems right now. And that's something that one of the reasons. I love doing these podcasts. So I'M GONNA go back and do my job as CTO of Microsoft. And see if I can try to make that happen more. I love it. I appreciate you doing that and I appreciate. Percy's work as well. That's just about it for us today but before we end I just have to say Kevin. I have been excitedly anticipating the release of your book which will be out on April seventh. It's called reprogramming the American dream and I've actually had a a tiny sneak peek. And it's really really well written. It's really good thank you. You are too kind. I am I'm looking forward to being out as well. I got a box of books in the mail. The other day This is the first book that I've ever written so I was like I had this pinch me moment When I opened this box and there were the stack of hardcover books that had the words printed in them that I written so. That's sort of amazing. That's so cool. I love that so much and I'm definitely going to be recommending it to my friends and my fellow tech nerds out there Because what I really like about the book is that it really does break down a lot of the things we've been talking about in this conversation. Like Hey I. In an understandable way in a way that is pragmatic and not scary. Yeah that was a goal. I was hoping to take a bunch of material that can be relatively complex in presented in a way that hopefully it's accessible to a broad audience so I think it's actually critically important like one of the most important things is to have all of us have a better grounding of what it is and what it isn't so that we can make smart decisions about how we want to employ it and how we want to encourage other people to use these technologies on our behalf. I love it. I love it all right. Well that doesn't for us as always please reach out anytime at behind. The tech at Microsoft Dot Com. Tell us what's on your mind and sure as hell everyone you know about the show. Thanks for listening.
Prof Brian Wandell, Professor and Director of the Center for Cognitive and Neurobiological Imaging at Stanford University.
"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy, economics and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda, or preparation. Be Color a wide variety of domains. Red New discoveries are made. and New. Technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide edited content of conversations, bit researchers and leaders. Who Low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense dot com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. please. Send up to info at scientific sense dot com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen Dot Info. If. You haven't heard about anchor. It's the easiest way to make a podcast. Let me explain it's free. Their creation tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast. Right from your phone or computer. Incredible will distribute your podcast for you, so it can be heard on spotify apple podcasts and many more. You can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. Download the free inker, APP or go to Anchor Dot FM to get started. My guest today is Brian. Van Del. Is the professor at the psychology. Department of Stanford University. He's also a member of electrical engineering, ophthalmology and school of Education. He's the funding director of Stanford's Center for Cognitive Noodle Biologically bitching. And he founded the Stanford Center for Immune Systems Engineering Program. Professor Bantus was centers on imaging science and technology spatting Yuna science measurements of the visual CORTEX and greeting development to simulation design if he making systems though come Brian. Takes Korean vacation go? Iowa I was a bit like a kid in a candy. Candy Store Prien looking at all your papers. I guess I. Guess you're wanting to crack card at Stanford these days. We. Stanford's in confusing moment with a campus being completely shut down and. We're all kind of wanderers out here. Yeah, yeah, I want to start with abundance of lease and. It's entitled the human. Genome Project for disordered emotional states. in which you say through the Human Genome Project at she p. out understanding the functional connectivity plane has been romantically accelerated. Given the pressing public health need be must increase our understanding. How connect on dysfunctions give rise to dissolve mental states. Great talk a bit about that people. Thanks at actually that whole project although I participate in it. It's a WANNA give a shout out to my colleague. Lead Williams. She's a terrific sky addressed yep. Has. The. The reason why I'm involved is because. I have a certain skills and being able to use magnetic resonance imaging for measuring and quantifying individuals. Human Brains Yup. And I've always been a meiring people like Lee who? Are, working just huge. Of on people being emotionally stressed, I think these days all can relate to. Research Center a really roiling country, but even in the best of times out. The greatest. Global Disease Burden Wester countries I shouldn't have said global greatest disease burden Western countries for people from about twenty till the ages six thirty or so. Are Really Anxiety, depression, disorders, and so forth and. It's not until later that. Cancer and heart disease start to dominate may May. I, so the goal Elise Project and the way I try to help. Is You know you WANNA? Be Able to look at a single person. Edge moments for that or What's going well, and what's not going well either with their brain, structure or function? It's sort of sort of looking at the in I was surprised. Bryant look at the numbers here meant disorders, arising from high levels of negative emotion, or from the loss of positive emotion, expedients affect of four hundred million people. Globally so so so the idea caters to look at sort of the widening of the brain, and then have some hypotheses. That's right and also. It's not likely to be the case at some something like this that everybody who had problems in the same? Yep, so the idea that you take a bunch of people in average of. Then seeing what's what's happening is. Proven not to be good. At approach, so maybe you or Anyone is listening might have. Heard of this notion of panic precision healthcare. Amex, the idea that you would learn about this particular person. Sometimes it's through genomics. Sometimes it can be through brain imaging. Is there something about this particular person We'd like to be able to look at a person and say you know one of the things lease. There are few intervention Help some behavioral cognitive in some pharmaceutical. In the amount of time. that. It can take to get to a helpful solution for somebody. Can Be quite long can be quite an unpleasant jury. And, so shortly net time on the cases we can help is what important aspect of what? Leonardo is trying to achieve. Yes, so this is through MRI. Scan right so. So the the brain s a template. But like you say each individual is different. But, but you are sort of looking for patterns in the in that in those scans that might. Tell us something. That's the right. Thing you should know. That everybody would know this about magnetic resonance. Instrument In other words big magnet, there's bench electron ix. Software that we use to analyze the data, but it can be used in extremely general way. Only measure one thing. And you can control the instrument to measure for example the white matter pathways these are the law Exxon's that connect different parts of your brain, or you can use it to measure the gray matter of your brain, which is where the neurons the cell bodies are located. How thick is it? What's their density or you can use it to measure? Indicators of functional activity. You know what is responding. which neurons are responding your task, so it can be used many many different ways and. That's why is project has so many authors it's. A really big challenge we're trying to use MRI of variety for ways to see which signals might be the most helpful for schoerling the diagnostic time. I be successful. I would say there has not been. Very optimistic. That, the next ten twenty years I'm old enough that I'm not gonNA. Be In the last twenty years of the next the next twenty years of this but. The. The physics of this is getting much better. The ability to handle large data sets at scale is getting much better. I look at the younger scientists, so they're just allow smarter than I was and a very hopeful that we will come to new ideas and. I would say at this point. There have not been real breakthroughs in diagnosing. Mood disorders via. Standard is. Mr Techniques or other techniques either eeg but I would say the number of companies that it started up in the space, the number of hopeful little papers. It is. You know it gives you a sense that we might be making some progress, but I can't really say that I'm confident is lit this point. Yeah, yeah, no, it's! It's interesting on one. Can you can? You can really understand how single cell could become a human being. On the other hand, you know you save of debt is a template designed template Khomeini, beatty agents. Could you have? Answer this incident And tense it's it's a really really complex problem to solve, but if we can solve that. It'll in the healthcare context as you know. you know, be tweet. Mental health almost separately from physical health. And there is really good data that shows that there is a huge connection between mental and physical so any diagnostic allergies that could surfers these things earlier and earlier intervention in the mental health arena could be could have a huge economic impact on the campus system. That's hundred percent trivial. Agree with that in all arts said that. you know even the mechanism for what we consider physical health make meaning things like a good vascular system. Good posture, good yet. Getting out walking in a mental health are quite significant. Those are some of the things we know best by the way. The these aren't magical. Fats writes up the thing when you look at a brain. It enduro surgery. The brain is filled ludd ambassador. and. When you walk and keep your heart pumping and your basketball chirs health and helps your brain health. and. We don't have the details of how that works, but there's no doubt that a good blood supply oxygenated your heart pumping. Just matters were mislead for brain house. It's a fascinating idea I want to jump into another one which is related up Brian so this has title biological development of reading circuits. Opinions Neurobiology that you you mentioned Breen computations over range of temporal and spatial scales. Understanding Action Potential Cincinnati efficacy is essential for understanding certain aspects of performance. You went back a little bit about that. Yeah thanks. So maybe give a shot at that that that particular. Collection of papers ethic that so review. there's a student of mine, Jason when off to Seattle for while as the professor. They heard he's now back a graduate school of Education at Stanford and he obvi- measure who's at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem Were really. Curious about how come some kids learn to read and some kids don't. And I have say first thing we learn as we started looking at that field. Was for the vast majority of its who had problems reading learning US, you could take care of a lot of those problems if they just got a good breakfast. L. Safe in their neighborhoods and was just you know just improved the general conditions of of their lives, but but beyond that and these are the ones we studied. There are kids who just you know they're motivated. They're smart in many other ways, and they just can't. Pickup the tricks that it takes particularly to learn. Read English, which is a very tough. Language minutes. and. The so we started look at using magnetic resonance imaging with the same idea. Could we do something helpful so that we could look at one kid saying principles. We spoke about Nikko yet. Who could you look at one kid? Say Ohio this kid he's. It's GONNA be okay in six months. Tell the parents. Just keep. Working keep her keeper doing her homework and it'll. It'll snap in if you must now, but this other kids say. We've seen this pattern and could be like some of these very famous and yet successful cases, or maybe the most famous stages days is Charles Schwab. Very S. And we would like to be able to tell the parent well. You know in this case really going to have to get him educated in a different way. So that particular point that you spoke to when we were, we got into it. We found a couple of counter. You know forces in the neuro science field that we felt we needed to address in one of them was that there are science as field has a man focus on single cells and the Senate? Yet. And you know when you measure Mr. you don't measure single cells with spatial resolution for magnetic residents is. Oh. You're pretty good. If you up at you, make millimeter of the brain cancer. About fifty thousand. And amongst these high high-end Neuro Electro physiologist, and basic scientists, you of being at the Synapse, and it could be you know five thousand synapses on a single cell. For the cool people. Are. That you know if you're a computational person as I as I am. No single synapse is really critical for computation can be critical for Drugs Yep. A lot of this comes from big Pharma. So you know man we got to control the synapse of that's where we can deliver drugs to Manhattan Pack, but for understanding what the brain is doing. Sometimes, you want to be at a different spatial resolution. On different parts of the Brian the back to the front of the brain, you want to see the pathways that connected. And, so that paper was one of our attempts to. Express view that there's real meaningful work to be done at the coarser spatial resolutions. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting Brian. So you know you mentioned sort of the initial conditions that the kid is in. and it has a huge impact by using his self development growth and funding danger carvers and acts on the status of the. So. Really Adapts Ko no not at the cellular level, but at the structural level. if you don't have the right initial conditions. You, you are kind of mining in sort of a different system almost sounds late. Yeah, and and in fact you raise the. Add the final word everybody. Most no the neuron. And Computational Helmet. Brain. Over the last I don't know maybe not more than twenty years. led by a quite remarkable scientists. Who is here at Stanford Ben Barris Your And more recently. Somebody who I don't know met her, but whose work fantastic. Michelle Monje. Stanford the and others around the around the globe, the importance of it completely different cell type of which there are almost as many in the brain at these cleal cells, yeah. Has Risen in terms of our understanding of how where they are the development of the brain for healthy signaling in the brain. And again our back the ability to. Distinguish the health of the neurons from gleeful cells from the as we were saying before the basket shirt whether the blood supplies skinning there. If you're care about kids, health, and whether a kid is gonNA develop. Learn to read you Wanna be able to assess. Systems as well as the neurotransmitters, the Bollock y'all's so You know a little a little bit of all of us. Standing, on win another's toes, but all of us helping one another see the different parts is something I think it could happen I. Think is maybe starting to happen and. I hope we all participated working together advancing global the global picture, not just picture from inside the synapse. Yeah, yeah, and even if the MRI scale. so-called mission and you mentioned this before commission and white met tissue properties. Is is one example of this factors misstep, important limits on both cognition and affect this, so yeah glad. Assistance if you don't have the connections between different parts of the brain in. The job of the white matter If you don't have the right connections across large parts of the brain, things will go well. So, yes, that's really important. Lewis, yeah, and in a sense I don't know much about this, but. You. Know once once the brain set. In that in that context. Can you intervene and make it better. Yes that's a? Very important question to end. Sometimes you'll, you'll hear the phrase brain plasticity Yep in that regarded a one of the big topics neuroscience in addition to developmental plasticity. Is the question of blame the city in the adult right? and. The the. was very heated area manner so. In the early days, so there's kind of era very famous. Nobel laureates Hubel visa. Who Did many studies also? Bring Development and came to the inclusion that there was an early stage of plasticity which we all marvel at Ryan Watch, kids grow extent. That that that's. Hugely important and kids are remarkable what they can recover from in MMA argue that there was a critical period after which. There wasn't much flash this LE- left. And there was a big push back against this that no, the is plastic as Of Gil, if you. But. The public radio stations to have a after after about reading last the city am. Help you know help you drive forever. Live for McKnight yet. But that the sentence plasticity in the adult rate is far less than the mantle plasticity in the developing brain. That seems to me pretty clear. There are still people who might baby would argue with me about it, but it's I think that. Are Pretty obvious, and so the question now is well when there is damage. Is there something you could do to reintroduce plasticity right in the form of a behavioral intervention that would release whatever is blocking your brain from growing, or in the form of some could be pharmacological or electrical stimulation, and this managed for cases like stroke patients had arts of their brain destroyed. It's open to technologies like stem cell therapies where you would try to. Reproduce Regression reinserting sleeps. There's other kinds of ways to. Grow its brain called the human. Brain Oregon whites of people are. Trying trying to achieve so. In any event. There's a lot of loss plasticity and there's a lot of interest in being able to literally repair union. Wonderful topics and very very very early stages us. Yeah and The This is not the paper, but I know that you have done some work in the do so. He is certain diseases like Alzheimer's for example. one question would be you know is really. really destroying any you know in remaining processing the brain as well right What what to send to thinking around that? You know the Alzheimer's. Work. It said that. Coal on the field it's within the broader field of neurodegeneration. Yeah, a method kind of brain plasticity. It's the kind that you don't like. Some brain is changing, but it's changing you way this. That's not helpful and so reversing net change putting on. Brain plasticity, but. UNDOING EFFECTS OF A. Destruction from Alzheimer's Which? Synapses are lost and communication is lost, and so forth is. Is Gordon raising? So people have now done many fundamental important experiments in animal models. Verse the effects of the Plaques and tangles and the gym the. Degeneration, and to try to bring back actually performance levels in. Animal, models But so now you've taken us into an area where? Out Wayne you succeed in reversing something that scene an an model's importance. It's kind of a model system. It's not the same as the human brain. Mass the mass raise one three thousand. The size of the human brain right. And it's GonNa have all kinds of differences, and it's kind of one of the tragedies of our. Current standing in. The neuroscience this that none of the. Interventions that have been successful in the mouse have effectively translated into human yet. And? That's why one of the reasons why I'm so passionate, personally about trying to just do better with technologies like him are that we can? Both measure and potentially even intervene in human directly so that we might have. Not had the mouse model human, but may be have some cases in which we have human malls. and. Anyway it's been it's been one of the. Hugely important in also frustrating up. Aspects of. What we look at at Stanford, we have a human we we have A. Very broad matches better very broad on neurosciences institute he. and. Clara Wound Joan. Side donated a neuroscientist institute and the ability mood disorder important as I mentioned lease work in others, but the Alzheimer's part of that is also course she a huge financial burden on society more than that. It's not just the money. Is You know skin so? into the space field in Brian, you know I think the section of computer science neuroscience it. You know I. I sometimes feel like s make progress on the computer science and The brain becomes more and more Nick Matic It's almost like God has a sense of humor you know. Get teas that you found something, but then you find that you know that that is thousand other things you need to uniquely. INTERESTING JUST! A little I. Get your point. Say a little more yeah yeah. So what what I was saying right as you know the computer signs, we are making quite a bit of you know. Sort of I would call it mechanistic programmatic advances. So you know that the latest thing in terms of deep neural networks. We know that the brain doesn't learn that way, but you're making great progress in neural networks and so on right. But then you go back and look in the brain you know it seems like be find. More things that don't understand. Right? at no point began say we have a better handle those and be no. This is how it's functioning. It seems like we have some component level understanding, but it's not really progressing to more of a holistic. Understanding. And you know so. Be Take this reductionist approach. Right in signs. And I often wondered if that is probably the wrong approach to the brain, and you kind of you kind of hinted on that as well. That is a structural aspects of the brain that is, that is really driving it. It's not necessarily the cells knows. Taylor died understanding. I two. Quite Fun death count among many might close friends. People really do important work on studying cells in their behavior at a wouldn't. I'm sure you also. Sat just felt that the balance had gotten to the point where people would say you know if you studying the system. You weren't real. Scientists are just joking around. Needed to know the jeans and the Molecule Right I. Shifted a little far. I would never argue that you don't want to know the genes, or if you could you know that of course. that. You re balancing a little bit so that we keep the whole. Human is harder measurement system. There the IT's miraculous what you can do with genetic manipulations crisper technologies. OPCO genetics remember these are recklessly. But not quite the and a great compliment. If we keep the patient or the developing child was learning. We need implemental lap. We can't just say Oh talking to be about these cells of A. House right right. Yeah I went to down jumped down of the Radio Brian, so you doing a lot of work in imaging systems camera designs? Related to artificial intelligence in one of the papers you, you talk about digital camera and Florida's in signals as sort of a fuss application in auto cancer screening could. You could talk a bit about that? Sure. Soon, you know for me ours one of the imaging modalities, but I bet she san been fortunate over. Career to be able to work Informed optics digital image sensors in some fourth. See Medical application I could bring it all together for me. fluorescence is one of the fundamental properties of healthy healthy cells. And so. Measuring fluorescence can be hard, and so that for me, right? That's my job. Try to find something. That's a little hard to do yet maybe. So. One day, actually answer a project that was actually kicked off. On my son, who's an oral surgeon in Texas. Had, he was seeing. my my wife and I were looking at a particular a particular devices. If you could take a picture of somebody's tongue. Never thought about, tons. Picture of somebody's ton. And see the fluorescence coming out at. Find fluorescence in moment yet. and. You could really get an early diagnostic diagnosis of cancer in the top. I had never heard anything like that. He said that you know that's not that big a deal here the US, but it's you know matters. Xinmin came to learn that tongue cancer in China and India a massive problem because of smoking and perhaps other factors. It's really yes. Smoking plus the alcoholic think had used negative effect. Yeah! So Designing a camera so. A lot of my world is about software for simulation signing cameras, Isis I using using software and so we started to think about how you design Ah. The lighting system filters that went received the light sensor, the processing for Cameron Bet. You could just poke into somebody's mouth briefly. Take a picture and get a sense of where the cells were arrested on resting means that you put in. Impure in one sense of fluorescence at Megyn couldn't light. Let's say Blue Light. comes back. It's red. And normally when you put. Lime out something. What's reflected back to US light? But in many cases harassing cases you put in the Blue Light, and there's a chemical process that arises physical processes arrives in the cells that changes the wavelength of light new returned the lower energy state, so the short wavelengths lined up being locker wavelength pitcher lower energy. So how you design the filters sensors in the cameras processing for that, that's the kind of thing we did for file and building a camera like that something we extended had another former student I wanNA. Shout out to Funk, Xiao. WHO's starting to company called vision in. Beijing. And Fung. Said what he would be thrilled to going. Just build this test equipment. Because if we can make some progress on this, he felt would really help. with oral cancer in China and we've been doing. He's been building little prototypes for us, we have. Kids in California, kid in London and people in China and all passing around software, building the vice, taking measurements, starting to write papers and. And we're learning about the literature. Is Kinda late in life but There's a big reading antastic work from people at a Houston. Dallas who done early experiments on this. We have a prototype camera up. Now we're taking pictures were trying to see if we can make it more moreau us. than if it works out, we're going to put it back in the hands of Colleague here who's in oral surgeon and also in the hands of our son? WHO's in? Texas safe. We can't move into the clinic again. We're not very far low, but we have some early preliminary measurements. Lacrosse. Yeah, this is. This is very interesting Brian so this. You're not talking about any sort of deep learning. needs here. You actually can write down. Some pure stakes basically saying he fly. Get this type of than I can I kept this probability that that tissues healthy or otherwise right you don't you don't really need to. use any AI. Techniques even know. What you're raising. Her interesting to me. Certain cases you know you just have the outlet. I'm would not say that we're sure yet. Looking back we will be. How will be able to do this so I will be happy to talk to somebody like you for example. I. I don't know whether the spatial pattern. Of The fluorosis that comes off the Tom, if it all in one side versus little dots spread across, Tung for health diagnosis while unruly. No, Yup, and I could be you know when when you and I spoke earlier we we spoke to her out collecting enough collecting organizing enough data yet, liberties, things, and we're keen to work with people like you and others who are skill in. Automating the search for signals through machinery right. Yeah and that is one of the other things that you pursuing blind, so you have you have a company tiebile tribunal, dot, Io, and one of the obviously one of the issues in in machine, learning multiple issues in one of them, obviously related to data you know. How do the organize a how we collect an Organiz data in a systematic way, so that experiments run on, that data could be produced by anybody who has coolest using that data. That's a really important aspect, because as machine, learning and deep learning really kick into mainstream. It's really easy. I would say to build models given bunch of data. It's not that easy to accurately produce those subcentral fashion, right? That's what that's what you're. You're really focused on at tribal yeah. Thanks. Say came about because when I. Started. The guess. It's been back in years we. To. Get our first magnet start on March Center. We knew we needed to take care of data. As when you first I want to check. One of these things utilize lasts inexpensive instrument. I better not mess up with manage data comes off. We have about forty different labs at Stanford. Used the instrument. Allot about stewarding the data. Making sure we did lose. It was properly recorded. That will be easy for people to share. Share. Is He's weren't gonNA. Be My data there? Get you know different labs acquiring? They weren't always ready to give it away right away. They want time to process it work on it, but we knew with complete with the diamond. It should be easy for them to share and to compute Try things with with other colleagues electrical engineering eater science applied math. With these data so yet we built A. You would have thought by the way. Don't be disclosed Sanford under the bus here. would. Like Stanford when you buy a big expensive instrument that. They would be an instinct from the saying you know. Whenever. We put up one of these centers. We always have to have a data management plan. and Sanford was actually really great about helping US choose the color of paint carpet. When it came to data, marriage vendor was one big shrug. the the my buddies who were building this thing with me Bob? DOUGHERTY Another company called Mind Strong Governor Schaefer. Join me a flywheel You know we thought we really have to build a data management system. We actually tried to get help. From Mar colleagues in the computer, Science Department, that was another interesting experience because I went over. There been around long enough, and they would take meetings with me. They all look at me and say let's just too easy. That's not a hard problem. Computer, science and computer science. You know we are doing these super advanced thanks. L. In between the YO. Could buy it off the shelf from Dell or something and something that computer science geek would work. So. We built our own system for data and computational management and. Seems to have fallen into a sweet fought and I'm glad you find you see the value. Menu. At this point flywheel doing okay, but for us the main point is the being able to share the word and letting other people. Check your work so. A lot of stuff is hard and we all benefit. If when you publish something, somebody else can come in check that you did it right away yet. The premise complete. The other side of date as you know, Brian is the night talked to Mike cline. Sometimes they save. You have to collect all the data first. And then we'll figure out how to use it. and. oftentimes you spend years collecting the data at by the time you come to us and the data's already changed. And so so the wheel you know capabilities in the area of. machine, learning and deep learning really the ability to systematically discard data. and. This is not something people really. Really think about it and you know the brains are good example often playing a video efficient discard of data. and and focus on what is really needed. but our you know kind of designs in the. Arena Basically is looking for all the data. In some way, right but. The data if the data's organized. In in a form that is tended is. across different modalities. Then you will be able to see what is most useful. Much faster, right? I agree with you. Say the. The I think the reason that took things that we've learned so far. I hope the story will continue for. We have a ways to go. Are Pretty fundamental things. We learn gold on your comments here. The first, is it? Don't let the data out of your hands when you get it from the. Were saying how hard it is to go, get the data. You know sitting at the beans. And the first thing that the instrument devs put the data in a database right. You're okay, and for many years and still many people don't appreciate the Hugh say you take the date in you. Let let it go out to the forty different labs, and then you say well could I have? So we by quitting the acquisition of data. In. The instrument itself which we could do, on our scanners. That very helpful. We now have this. Just in our one center, we have a massive data set, but. We're now. I thought it was massive, but I I would say I. Don't know if I'm allowed to. I mean the allowed to date the company, but we're working with a very large pharmaceutical company yet. They have millions of data said I was impressed that we had many tens of thousands. These companies at global scale have millions data sets, yet. You're not organizing them well Oh yeah, so the data in organized is. Key and we're glad had this. Lynn partner recognizes added hopefully. Go the other thing. That we learned, is that in each field, so we're particularly comfortable because of my background in medical imaging. But I don't really think that exactly the same format how it in the Meta data about it so for will worth exactly the same way in all fields, even other types of minute imaging, so Sanyo I. Do a lot of are pet. E. G. things. This were ultrasound. But. When you get a digital the follivy, it's a slightly different culture. The other thing we've learned is that when you build these things, you have to be aware of the culture of the enterprise as Pharma versus Versus medical instrument makers make. wearable watches right? In organizations, and we need to keep learning what works properly in the domain specific organization yet. It's been a very Thanks me talk about that have been. It's been very. That I do think you're right. You said this a number of times that the acquisition and organization data yet really. and. Often undervalue by scientists and engineers. Anyway. Thanks, it's often undervalued, and you talk about this amount of the papers by enriches. you know if you are embarking on a process? Take, a lot of time to think through the data that that you warned rate. because otherwise you'd be cycling through this process over and over again. Trying to make slight refinement to the data capture process. And that is that sweetie costly I i. so one of the things that that I thought was also really interesting Brian so this new network generalization, the impact of camera parameters of the people that you have. Ben You. Say images coming out of different cameras from a from a new network. This is convoluted on your network from generalization perspectives roughly the same mass. The images generalization you get from images in late praised multi-spectral in the majors. What what exactly those? Yeah. The. Very hard to build cameras expenses yet. Camera and Brennan outed tested. And so Just like it's hard to build an MR scanner at estee, so so in imaging, there is a little bit of a movement that some of us are. Trying to own to use simulations and accurate simulations of the places, so that we can build say complex driving scenes at men, theoretical cameras in simulation. Drive them for a couple of million miles without having actually ill the novel camera. Quitted out on the road at drive for a million miles. Elon Musk can do that. At. That particular paper was asking. How close are we getting? Our simulations which the technology for getting physically accurate images that he can use inputs physically accurate cameras is it would be called multi-spectral 'cause. It's many different wavelengths of light. ray tracing is the right of technology forgetting the accurate measurements is, can you do multi-spectral ray tracing through optics onto sensors and train euros facetime at so that you can do it. All inside of will cloud, or on Azure Amazon or something and. Get a pretty decent assessment of how well it'll work before you put or not somebody's car. Right and at least into few attempts the they do pretty well. There's a little growing in. Right now, so so the thing, we didn't know how to measure exactly rank as we weren't kate. Practical Act practically oriented. Night couldn't say well. Okay this out simulate announce. Get out there and drive for years right. That was not available to me. What we could do was saying well, people had. Should kindly shared large data sets? That community is pretty great about sharing data sets the machine learning. So we could say well suppose we trained on the data set from Berkeley. And then I'll, we tested on the data set from Germany. or we trained on one for Germany test on the one from China. How much how well would they generalize? And what we found was that generalization between data sets. People had posted were acquired was no better than the generalization between the synthetic. Okay, we would build the fact. Synthetic data set. Could could predict some of the real ones better it was. It was right in the mix. That we should keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's exciting. So conclusion, Brian. You know if you look forward five years. where do you think would make the most advancement it? You think of cognitive ideologically managing some of the things that we talked about today. Do you think? You say that most excited about me. Ask It that day. On this. Mission so let me say my partner this is. In the neurosciences is, the is the director Law Clara Woo. When is a neurosciences? It's at Stanford Director. Is A guy named bill? And we were fortunate enough to be able to put up a building. A? House the Address Sciences Institute. And I'M GONNA. Tell you what we bet on. Is a dangerous. We're really annoyed with US but. We stuck it out. In the in the design of the building, we implemented to Florus we. We can literally berged to two floors. Cut Him out. Hardware a places where theorists would sit and thick. Normally when you build a building at Stanford for neuro science, almost any biology it's lend lab bench to the next. You know. For Chemical for maintaining chemicals, places for animals and so forth. But Bill Nye with backing others. got a space built into the building. That's GONNA. Be Really hard to reconfigure for anything other than theoretical neuroscience. And our feeling is that The number of experiments is infinite and we WANNA make more rapid progress. We're GONNA. Need people like you. Theorists who sit and think about the problem and develop theories developed models to guide. Both the massive new data sets, they're being acquired and what we should acquire next, so that's the bet we made. I don't know five year better a fifty year bat, but the bet we made is, and we've done our best to try to protect the space so that they're always be a place to fink about how we should organize the data rather than. Massively. Go and collect a lot of data. Some people are not with us for some people. Works out. That goes back to your comment about culture rate so I ended up. The day progresses really highly coordinated with culture. Say thanks for saying I put your mind. Get one of the things that made us go for. This was when we did this bill. nye In a couple of others. Had about twenty different dinners with people from all around campus, groups attend twenty. Engineers people from the ED school or just trying to figure out what we thought was. If our support and one very memorable time was when somebody started yelling at US facing polite way. In The, Matic's for this guys are never gonna get anywhere until he started understanding the difference between. Theory and model on unique mathematics. We were Eric for that. Yeah! That's that's excellent. Yeah, this has been great Brian thanks so much for your time today and good luck with everything that you're doing stanford. It's been a pleasure meeting you thanks for the opportunity to have a conversation. Thank you.
"Thank you for listening to this podcast, one production now available on Apple podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. All right, just a little heads up. This is a two part series. If you haven't listened to part one yet. Stop what you're doing right now, go back and listen to last week's episode part one. It's called Margaret Williams. degree. Degree reported. I! The first degree. Supposed to have it in movies not. And I. I did feel sorry for John and I sell bike. Even from the beginning there was just this dark sides him a sad side. But when I read the. Bad Mouthed Margaret and talks about some of these women I thought no. He's he's a psychopath. So. Welcome to the first degree that your podcast. You might end up on my name. Is Jack Manic? I'm sitting so far away from Alexis Link Gutter and Billy Johnson and Alexis has our Mike set up with a bunch of crunchies today. So you know we are off to a good episode. It's IT'S A it's a good episode. One alexes fumbling with her microphone, and making sure it is standing up just right. Before we in Europe said I'm going to give myself a little shoutout right right now because yesterday. With the Lady, Gang I released a clothing line with express, so if any of you fashionable broads out there want to get some really cute clothes. GO TO EXPRESS DOT COM just how to get myself a little shoutout to do a search related gang. How do how do you find it well? It's on the front page and. I mean you don't know I. Mean Somebody might be listening to this two weeks from now, and it won't be on the front page. That's true. You can just search Liyang in our entire collection. As there's pretty much something for everyone, so we're really excited about it philly. What Day is it today? There's a lot of days today, actually not a lot of days, but the one day like it's an actual ice cream Sunday day, and this actually means a lot to me, because for some reason whenever I talk about this is GonNa. Take a little bit, but whenever took murder victims and when people say. Oh, they were. They were marginalized. They were they were drug users they were. They don't. There's so much of that in society where you don't see their picture in news. The one of the things I always say is that they could have gotten enough money. To eat an ice cream Sunday for some reason that seems like so much freedom to me and life to me, so this actually means a lot to me. Let's sweet belly. What's your favorite ice cream Sunday? You know what I got a little chocolate, a little peanut butter, a little peanut butter in there through a little hot fudge in their their little A whip cream in there, you know. That's that's my. That's my thing. Deep dark chocolate. a classic Sunday Now I want some ice cream, but That's enough of that. So, let's turn down the lights. And turn up your anxiety. Because this could be. For more than four decades, the brutal murders of two young women whose bodies were discovered strangled and brutalized in the hills near Stanford University less than a mile apart from one, another remained a total mystery. The man who killed them, John, get true managed to fly under the radar, maintaining the appearance of living a pretty normal life. Those. Who knew him describe a family man, a boy, Scout, leader, a loving father and grandfather. They had no idea that the man they thought they knew had been attacking sexually assaulting in murdering young women since one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty three. The consequences and stigma of committing such a heinous crime did not follow John Getcha when he returned to the United States, he was left free to his own devices and full advantage of his anonymity. Last week we took you through. Get Yours high school years on the base. We killed Margaret Williams Margaret's murder haunted our first degree barbara in two thousand seventeen. She was shocked to hear his name in the news yet again, because over the years, Barbara never forgot about Margaret and never forgot about John. Get true, and that's because a number of her friends and her and her sister, and then her sister-in-law. Who is your best friend on the base? They kept in touch in this story did not ever go away. It would come up here and there and they always wondered what happened to John. Get true. We. Had this story in common? And so you talk about it. You know whatever he's like. That came up and lead say. I wonder where he is, and I wonder this back then. We didn't have social media. We didn't have Internet nothing so all we did talk about it and talk about how scary was and. I don't know then after a while. You know you move on, and you let it go, but every once in a while is something happened. And so get this my sister and I. We do like your shows. We like podcast like this. She's listening to one call case file, so she was listening to that as she fell asleep. That's what she saw. She Falls Asleep and she said she was just about asleep and she here's the name. Get through, and she sits up in bed and yells husband up. Wake up! This is about. John Route because he was over there, too. And it's about a girl who was killed in Stanford and in the last fifteen minutes he talks about gets very short I started googling and found that Palo. Alto article that told a lot, and I just went some I started reading tonight. No all about funding and you've learned about their personalities and whatnot. And as soon as she said that. I said. Didn't you always think he'd be a serial killer? Will we kind of laughed it? which is not appropriate, but she goes yes. Of course could be of course he could be a serial killer. And there's no doubt that John True is a serial killer, but to what degree to answer that we need to go back to the beginning. Today's case takes us back to August twenty sixth of nineteen forty four, and this is the day the mark, the birth of John Arthur get through the movie. Playing in the theaters was marriage is a private affair starring Lana Turner James Craig and as far as songs topping the Charts Bing crosby swing on a star was the song everyone was listening to. Now. There's no one setting for today's case. But we'll start essentially where the villain began and that's Newark Ohio. Which is a city? Three miles east of Columbus, and Newark is the twentieth largest city in Ohio. It's not terribly big. And what is most known for our the Newark Earthworks Resnais major ancient complex built by the hopewell people. And remnants of this earthworks still exist today. During the late eighteen hundreds, and the early nineteen hundreds, the licking county fair took place inside the Great Circle Mound, which is one of the largest of the structures. And then the Ohio National. Guard utilize the octagon mound as a drill field. And it's here in Newark Ohio. The John Arthur Gatera. Was Born on August twenty, six, nineteen, forty, four. His Dad was Major Charles J, JETRO HIS MOM IRMA QUE get through! He had two siblings Danny and Marquette, he stayed in Newark until he was four in the get through. Family frequently returned Ohio visits between being stationed at basis around the world for most of John's Childhood and adolescence when God was. Was In grade school. We know that he was an Army Brat but an ongoing female notice throughout this episode is that it's incredibly difficult to try to piece together. Where people were in the nineteen fifties in the nineteen sixties in the nineteen seventies, even in the eighties on ancestry dot com I did find a ship blog that proved that John True sailed from Japan to San Francisco in nineteen fifty five. But tracking a minor down in the fifties and sixties is no easy feat in that even found that surprised me because it was very hard to figure out where he was which base which country at which times right and John, whose picture appears in the Newark High School Yearbook and Nineteen Sixty one as a sophomore, so he attended high school in Ohio if only four short time likely when his father was between assignments and we know that prior to his arrival. Arrival in Germany, where he went to school with her first degree, Barbara he had spent time in Hawaii and also north. Carolina and we do know that he was attending school on the base in Germany from sixty two until sixty three, and it's a nineteen sixty three when John Killed, Margaret Williams he then spent those measly two years serving a sentence for her murder between sixty four and sixty six, and then he returns to the United States, but then why? What we can't be sure of is that upon his return, it became clear that those two years in a German prison did not rehabilitate John Get true. Not even close. And we know that because we now know that more women net Margaret's fate. It's hard to know. Where John Catcher landed immediately following his return from Europe. There are no records it can be found between sixty six and sixty nine. However, we do know that he got married to his first wife in sparks Nevada. which is a town within reno? And by Nineteen seventy-one, John Wife moved to and settled into Palo Alto California, which is near San Francisco. And at this time he's working as a lab tech at mills. Hospital, which was located in Palo Alto he later worked the Stanford University Medical Center as a cardiac technician, and then eventually oddly John started working in security at Stanford University the name of the company that employed him in seventy, two was officially listed as Plant Protection Services of Palo Alto and. and. We know that the seventy s were rocked cursed. Whatever you WANNA call it plagued with a number of prolific and extremely deadly serial killers especially on the west coast. We have bundy. We have raider. We have Dangelo. We have the hillside strangler, and so on, and so forth at the time. It wasn't clear how many serial killers were at work across. But. It was more than a few. We didn't have the technology to help. Connect cases, nor could information be spread quickly amongst police departments. Keeping in general was LAX. People could easily assume different names, new identities and John Jetro had all of this working in his favor in the added bonus he had also was that he was military brat which. Makes it much more difficult to figure out where he'd been where he was or anticipate where he would go. And we know where he went Palo. Alto Northern California. An area that was plagued by a rash of murders in the early Seventies. And that included the murder of twenty one year old Lesley Marie Perlov Leslie was Stanford University Law School student. And she also worked part time at the north. County Law Library. On February Sixteenth Nineteen seventy-three. Leslie went on a walk in the hills near Stanford University. And there was a very specific reason for this track. She wanted to find a viewpoint from the hills that you want to have painted on canvas for her widowed mother's birthday, so after work she drove her Orange Nineteen seventy-two Chevy Nova to the gates of a rock, quarry and part. From there. It's believed that she walked North West. And when Leslie never made it home, a search for her started immediately I, her car was discovered, but there was no sign of Leslie or her purse anywhere police and volunteers searched the hills, and they eventually came upon Lesley's battered beaten, and strangled body face down in some brush underneath an oak tree. She'd been strangled by her scarf. It was still around her neck. Her skirt was pulled up around her waist and other items of clothing were hanging off her body as if they were forcibly removed, she was wearing a raincoat, and it was stained with blood, according to the police report, Leslie was not sexually penetrated, but her skirt was pulled up in her panties and pantyhose were stuffed in her mouth. Lesley's friends and family were a total loss. Who would want to kill this young law student? They didn't know. I'm sure the sadness in confusion was overwhelming, because remember the term serial killer at this point hadn't even been coined when Leslie was killed. People didn't yet know the real threat of certain strangers be brushed shoulders with industry. It's were carrying with them. This disturbing an inexplicable less to kill torture and rape strangle innocent strangers. This concept is an Zeitgeist now, but it was not back then right so the police at the time had no idea why leslie was killed or who did it. The investigation was further confused when the day after her body was found, they found the body of a man in the very same hills where they had discovered Leslie's body. The remains were that of a twenty five year old man who had a lethal gunshot blast to the face. He would later be identified as Mark Roosevelt. His death was ultimately determined to be a suicide. and. I was rampant that perhaps this was the person who killed Leslie before taking his own life, but in reality. The location he chose to end his life eerily close to Margaret's remains was coincidental. And when the police began investigating Leslie's murder, the only clue of substance that really presented itself was in the form of a witness who said that she saw Lesley's Orange Chevy, Nova parked at the quarry that there was a man with shaggy-haired driving a car near Lesley's. And at one point he pulled alongside and parked next to her car, but this wasn't really that much to go on, and while they're able to collect evidence at the scene. Where Leslie's body was recovered, they couldn't really do anything with this evidence due to the lack of technology, so such as the case with. with, so many murders happened in the nineteen seventies. Lesley's murder went cold ice cold. The following year in the early evening hours of March, Twenty Fourth of Nineteen, seventy, four, twenty, one year old Janet and Taylor left the home of one of her friends who lived in Palo Alto and she decided to hitch hike back to her house, which is located in the nearby city of La, Honda. Her friends begged her not to go, but she said she had to. She had to go home and let her to. Doberman pinschers out for to go to the bathroom for the day. Witnesses leader came forward and told police. They spotted Janet walking on Gina Perreault. Sarah Boulevard, which had a decent amount of cars on the road that evening there was healthy traffic flow and Janet was seen at seven thirty PM. That night and it was actually the last time anyone would ever see her alive. Because the next morning delivery driver found her body in a ditch alongside interstate two eighty. Her body was fully clothed except for her shoes and purse, which were messing. She was wearing green corduroy pants. When police arrived at the scene. They discover that Janet had been strangled. Likely her own gray turtleneck sweater. The medical examiner observed emerges in her throat and fluid and blood in her lungs. Marks appeared to have been made by the design on her knitted turtleneck sweater. As if something had pressed hard against it. The hired bone in her throat was fractured. There was also evidence of sperm in her crotch area. But no injuries. Her clothing was preserved, and although police investigated to the best of their abilities, they didn't come up with a suspect. And Janet was not a student at Stanford. University But her murder still sent shockwaves through the community. Because Janet's father, Chuck Taylor was Stanford's Athletic Director and football coach, the police struggled to find out who killed Janet at the time she was working for maritime. Information Center in Palo Alto area and she was a student at a school six miles away from Stanford at candidate college in San. Mateo County. There was less than ten minute drive between these two campuses. Hitchhike between the two schools to meet up with friends or meet up with her dad or different activities like that. The murders of both Gina and Leslie were shocking sickening, and they had a number of things in common in both cases, the police in the victims families believe that their daughters had no prior connection to their killer, both were twenty one years old both. Both had connections Stanford University they were both found face down both strangled with a ligature, and each found less than a mile from one another, but here's the thing. Unfortunately there murders were not the first that occurred within the vicinity of Stanford University. There had been four others that were similar that had been perpetrated by under assailant between nineteen seventy to nineteen, seventy six. Both, Janet and Lesley's cases began to go cold. That was until the arrest of Ted Bundy. Who was known to target young women on the West Coast? Sectors wondered if he could have been responsible for the killings. But after looking into Bundy detectives concluded that they couldn't find any concrete evidence. That bundy had either killed them or had taken them. Then in nineteen, seventy, five John Get true slips up. Here's what happened. In the words of Diane Tell who is now sixty two years old at this time. Get. Your was still married to his first wife Sue. And, even though the couple didn't have children, they were very involved in the scouts for some odd reason. As a scouts leader, John took the children to dances and other events and active as guardian according to Del. Just, say real quick. It's very odd to be a scout leader with no kids. So just throwing that outnumber. It's it's so strange strange I don't know if you'd be able to do that these days. It. Faster now. They're supposed to be a big process to go through, but I don't know. That it's that seems like a no go nowadays. In January of nineteen seventy five, diane was a seventeen year old scout explorer, her parents on a vacation when she and three of the boys ner troop decided to go to a midnight movie, and then get some pizza. Their parents would only allow this kind of late night outing if they are accompanied by an adults and one of the boys had suggested that they invite John Gastro. In one saying got home. She said she heard a knock on the door. It was John Jetro. And he said that the other boys were still wide awake and we're planning to meet at her house, so the boys were gonNA come back over in. This party was gonNA keep going. But the boys never came in as Diane and John. GADGETRY sat there in waited for the quote. Unquote boys to calm. Who would never come? John began to question her about uncomfortable subjects like her relationship with one of the boys. And then he started probing her about her experiences with kissing boys. John also wanted to know about Diane's best friend and other boys in the troop, asking similar questions about their relationships in this May. Diane extremely uncomfortable John Guttridge thirty one. She's seventeen. It's a very odd situation. We have at a certain point. He started kissing her in Diane. Said think of sued think of your wife. Because we're member, Dianne also knows sue. So John told her that they were having troubles and weren't getting along and continue to kiss her, and then he pushed her onto the sofa. Mind you. Diane's little brother is asleep in the bedroom down the hall, and she protested and tried to get up, but he grabbed her by the throat in began to tighten his grip. He threatened her to be quiet and said he could hurt her. John Get your remained on top of her. He took off her clothes below the waist. Any raped her. And most of the time he kept one hand firmly around her throat. Dan recalled at the boys, and their true had talked him up as sort of this amazing leader. They often said that he was very strong. He had taken martial arts. After John Left Diane's house, she went to her friend's house where she told the parents about the rape John Getcha was arrested for raping Diane, and he pleaded not guilty. In the case went to court. The teenage girls testified that during the rape John was choking, and said I have my hand at your throat in I could hurt you. John was given a deal and was able to plead guilty to statutory rape. He paid a two hundred dollar fine, and he was sentenced to six in jail. However, five months of his sentence were suspended, so this piece of shit got one month for violently reaping. Bold and on top of all that he was allowed to serve his time on weekends in County jail like is this familiar to anybody desert? Remind anybody of Jeffrey Epstein it's in saying and just so we're clear. He received two years in jail for killing Margaret. He gets one month in jail for the violent rape of a minor plus two hundred dollar fine, and for anybody that does. This is less than three parking tickets in La. It's insane and I'm really sure that he learned his lesson. Why would he not do it again? Nothing happens to him. He has no repercussions. No and one of the things I wanted to point out. People always ask us like. Why were the seventies such a big time for serial killers and A lot of it is because that they started out raping women, and they got so such small sentences. On yeah exactly. The odds were that women were going to feel the support they needed. To feel strong enough to take it to court, so a lot of women just didn't bother as we I. Mean we talk about this all the time it happens now. Women don't bother now because they don't want to deal with the nightmare that they often have to. You teach people how to treat you and if people aren't getting punished for brutalizing and killing and raping, then they're not gonNA. Learn their lesson and they're going to think we're here at disposal. I mean you get in more trouble for Jaywalking than this got in trouble for violent, violently violently raping somebody so. How those and set, and the girl that he raped the girl scouts, and he said she came on to him, so he got like one month of weekends in jail. I'll tell you what this really shows to. It was certainly a man's world back then. That van. Will you wearing? But yeah. His hand was slapped just like Epstein. He has all those girls. They put him in jail in Florida. So what was one year on the weekends only? I mean another thing that I wanNA point out. Is that now? We have John Killing Leslie in seventy three right we have. Him, killing Janet, and seventy four, and we have him committing a violent rape and seventy five so. I'm no mathematician and I'm certainly not the math genius in this group, but I see a pattern That's one violent attack per year with no repercussions to this point, virtually none I'm sorry. Two hundred dollar fine I'm sure was catastrophic so. We asked you. What are the odds that he is going to stop? Those odds are probably pretty low. We'll be back with the story after this break. It is summertime. It is hot outside and the last thing that I want to be doing right now is making an entire long meal, and that's why I love our sponsor, daily harvest and right now daily harvest is helping beat the heat with a refreshing smoothies and delicious scoops, which is their new plant based ice cream scoops are free of additives, preservatives and fillers. Nourishing organic ingredients like black sesame coconut cream in dragon fruit, and they have four amazing flavors. Dealing harvest is such a lifesaver. They help you stock your home with clean. Delicious food is built on real fruits and vegetables, and the firm frozen to lock in peak nutrients and taste in with dealing harvesters tons options for any time of the day from smoothies balls, which are my favorite flat breads and more and eating clean food daily harvest. Harvest is easy and effortless, whether you're having a night at home and needed quick by the go. Everything stays fresh in the freezer until he ready to enjoy it, so keep it simple this summer with daily harvest go daily harvest, dot, com and enter Promo. Could I get twenty five dollars off your first box? That's Promo Code I for twenty five dollars off your first box at daily harvest dot com. That's Daily Harvest, DOT COM. There is very little known about where John Get. Your was what John, catcher was doing between one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, five and nineteen, seventy eight. There are no public records available from that time that make any indications. The next time he POPs up was October of seventy eight. That's when he hit us first wife divorce, and he married his second wife, Linda and Caputo despite his criminal record. Get your at a second joined a scout troop, while in Ohio. According to an April first nineteen eighty article in the Newark Advocate. They were in the. IOS Society. Which is an explorers posed open to all youth ages, fourteen and older adults. Which is dedicated to teaching native American traditions and these public records detailing this marriage and this move. John is using the last name. Get through spelled G. E. T., R. E. W. instead of G. E. T. R. E. YOU Remember by now. He has a rape on his record. So, this was a deliberate effort to distance himself from that crime. And now between nineteen, seventy, eight and nineteen eighty-eight, we kind of lose track of John Together and there's very little that we know about what he was doing during this time. And this should probably be the period of time that we're examining the most closely when attempting to connect him with these other crimes. In nineteen. Eighty Ada John, pops backup on the public records radar when he buys property and Alameda County, California and at this point, he is a father with Tucson's. After moving back to California, guttural lived a seemingly unremarkable life in the bay area from the eighties to the present. He was raising a family and joining civic organizations such as the elks lodge. In two thousand three, John's second wife dies of cancer in the early two thousands. He really leans into this quote. Unquote American Dad this sort of vibe into thousand seven. He served as the Exalted Ruler of the Fremont Elks Lodge Twenty one twenty, one in Fremont California then in two thousand eight John Married his third wife, and you have to remember that when John Get was to reading as a family man, he was killing, and yet he was not a law. Enforcement rate are whatsoever, but somebody else was. Vice failure ran soccer the east area rapist, the original night stalker, who we now know as the Golden State killer from nineteen, seventy, six and nineteen eighty-six Joseph Diangelo was doing the same thing. John Guitry was popping up and killing in various cities across California. That man is retroactively. Almost just as difficult to track in pinpoint where he was what he was doing, and where he was working as John gets its. And deangelis murders a gun on solid for almost forty years. When the FBI announced that they reviving their efforts to capture the man, they were now referred to as the Golden State killer. They offered a fifty thousand dollar reward. They put up billboards with the sketches of the GS suspect. And while it was known that there was this revived effort to find a suspect. Known at that time, really knew what was going on behind the scenes. Law enforcement was using genetic teleology to search for GSK. And with Jess K. genetic genealogy technologies snagged its first big win, and that was the capture of Joseph Dangelo Golden State. Killer. And on the heels, their success, and the use of technology to capture Jess K they started to look to genetic genealogy to solve other cases that had long been considered cold last week profiled the murder of Margaret. Williams, and we discussed how Margaret's little brother. Evan was only seven years old and living on the base in Germany when his big sister was killed. Well as an adult, he called the law enforcement assigned to the Golden State. Task Force to tell them about John Gastro. In while Barbara was much older than Evan at the time of Marcus, murderer and the base. She certainly knew who Margaret's little brother was. My sister two days later Arabia. My sister was walking back from having Babysat for somebody and she saw Bevan. Bingo look their apartment window. That was open and he yelled down to her. My sister was killed. He was seven and a half. My sister was killed. Religious looked with him what she said say. She came home and tell me and I was like Oh mark. Evans, said the following to the Palo Alto Journal. Quote when there was a push to find golden killer, I was concerned that the California authorities would not have known about the murder in Germany. When the FBI asked release I. Let them know that this man was the man who took my sister's life and he was living in California. Now timeline for when the police looked. Get true following Evans Call and when they realized he wasn't, she s k. when they realized Dangelo was Jessica, and when they realised John Jetro, could actually be connected to other cold cases is unknown, and even just saying that it's complicated and convoluted, but just know those sequence of events did occur. We know in two thousand seventeen. The police started looking at John detro- trying to figure out where he was in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, three and nineteen, seventy, four, when Leslie and Janet were murdered, and luckily they had DNA for each crime scene, so the police knew these were solvable crimes. All we needed to do was find the owner of this mysterious DNA. So around the same time that it was becoming known the junk, Getcha was connected to other murders here. United States. Barbara and Avin reconnected on facebook of course so I. Was Avenues. Monterey spoke I told him. I said I don't want to bother. You I don't want to invade you but I knew Margaret, and you didn't because you only seven and he said Oh. Tell me anything you know. All about her. How sweet she was and how fixture, UK Day and All of that he said I've never known in me that he said I. Don't know that I. didn't melted I went to the window. He said. I'm so thankful that you told me these things so when I. Texted with Evan. I said Evan I have to be careful. Because I I don't really know you haven't seen you since you were seven, but I think this man has commonly killed women in Ohio when there six years and owns her. Stanford area and he said, meeks. By now Joseph Dl had been identified as the golden state killer. and. By April of two thousand eighteen, he had been charged with the thirteen gs, k. murders, and all the other prosecutable offence is connected to his killing spree. In regards the pursuit of Jon Catcher as a potential murder suspect. while. They didn't have the smoking gun they needed. They had connected Lesley's murder to Janet's. Police have been able to extract. DNA from under Leslie's fingernails and they retrieved DNA pants. Janet had been wearing when she was killed. In regards to Leslie case. The male DNA under her nails was a significant finding. The scientists conducted these tests, said the following day. Palo, Alto Article Quote. It's not that common to find another person's DNA as a major contributor under a victim's fingernails. DNA from someone other than the victim is found less than twenty percent of the time. The presence of another person's DNA. which in this case match get through can't be explained by a handshake or a pat on the back. It would have been from physical contact with skin cells or bodily fluids. Such as semen, some skaters had all the pieces that they needed to put this huge puzzled together. They had his name. They were aware of Margaret's murder back in Germany in nineteen, sixty three, and there were glaring similarities between all three of them. By now, that also learned that John was working at Stanford University as a medical and lab tech. And using genetic genealogy Santa Clara law enforcement had obtained a genetic sample from a distant cousin of John get truce, and the results indicated that somebody in his family tree had been the one to kill Lesley Marie Perlov. They were so close. So police went through this family tree one branch at a time looking for members of the family who could have been in Palo Alto during the right time in the right area. Policemen through the family tree, one brand time looking for members of a family who could have been in Palo Alto the right area during the right handful of years that aligned with Leslie's murder until they landed on John Jetro. At this point John was living in the bay area. A town called Hayward that was across the San Francisco Bay from Mateo California and to get John Veterans Deny Santa Clara County Sheriff's detectives followed he and his wife in Washington throwaway disposable coffee cups in a plastic trash. Can the police grab the discarded Cups and tested them? For DNA. The DNA from get Truce Cup match the DNA found under leslie per lobs nails. Tell you why it got solved because of Evan. Evans said you've got to trace this man's dear men and they said we can't just go Jeddah's DNA. We don't have any. And how do we accurate in? And then they did that genealogy and sound a cousin back in Ohio and I guess you know how they matched the different things on the DNA and found a match then they started looking at all the jets rooms. You know. Can we find any of the countries? And then they found? Oh, there is one he is in Palo Alto. And so then they made the connections. We have to thank the detective department to you know some police departments they go. We don't care. That was fifty years ago. So on November twentieth two thousand eighteen. After forty five years of her case being cold. John. was arrested for the murder of Lesley Marie Perlov. Once in custody. He may be, potentially significant statement during questioning. He told the detective he did not know lizzy Pearl off. And he had not had sexual relations with her. He also said that he had never been in the hills where her body was found. When shown a photo of the twenty one year old victim however. Get your recognized her as a Stanford graduate. And after John. Get arrest people who had known him from all around the globe, started to learn the truth about who he ultimately become, or maybe who this man had always been from the beginning Mary early and she divorced him. She probably. Already married gentlemen, she died. And you married a third time, and she stayed with him, and they lived in Harlem of an apartment. I don't know I don't know L.. A. Roller Palo Alto whatever Stanford, but he lives not SAR like fifteen minutes away from the university and They didn't have any money. He ended up being a carpenter. And just like so many of these stories when they interviewed the neighbors and whatnot go. No? That was the nicest man t used to by. Our kids presents and I'm like yeah, they did. Because he wanted perp on them and I, I did feel sorry for John, and I felt like even from the beginning there was just this dark side to him a sad side. But when I read that He. Bad Mouthed Margaret, and then he talked about some of these women I thought no. He's he's a psychopath. So sure. Word eventually reached Evan Williams the brother of John trews first known victim Margaret Williams. Evans said the following to the PJ star quote. I always had this feeling. I might be made aware of him committing crimes later in life, the article continues from time to time a memory of assist or new story about unsolved serial murders led Evan Williams to research John. Get through and his whereabouts and he admitted that he's had to work on himself for the research from consuming him. The burden carried believing that gets real had likely murdered raped in harm. People was one I felt I was meant to carry until anytime I might be able to have any influence injustice happening in hopefully, some people being spared Leslie Family Live for decades, not knowing who killed her. Sister Diane had kept in touch with the detectives who worked the case for? Those forty years. And she never gave up hope that it would be solved. And then only a handful of months after John Getcha was charged with Lesley's murder and May of two thousand and nineteen, he was charged with Janet. Taylor's scientists had been able to extract DNA from the clothes. Janet was wearing when she was killed, and like in the case of Leslie. The DNA was a match to John get truce. He was held on ten million dollars bail ten million dollars bail. Own, who's posted in that? No scientologist! Jeffrey Epstein. About. The arrest of John Gut true answer to question that begged to be. For more than forty years who killed Leslie Pearl off? Who Kill Janet Taylor? But with the clear outcome in regards to these two cold cases, two questions, a million more questions emerged. Here's what we seem to know about John Jetro Brochure. It appears that he killed women in nineteen sixty three. Then seventy three. Seventy four, but how many others has he killed? This is the question on the forefront of everyone's minds. And once John was in custody investigators. Start a piece things together. And much of their work in building, a time line has been included in this episode, but as we mentioned there gaping holes in terms of information that can be provided by public record. Once news of his arrest became public. People, who thought they knew John? Catcher start to come forward. And share their experience with this serial killer in disguise. Too many who have spoken John get through seemed like a perfectly regular person, nothing exceptional, nothing extraordinary, but nothing overtly alarming either. Some neighbors said in his old age John was the type of man who gave Christmas presents to kids in the neighborhood just because. A man who had worked as a carpenter, a boy scout leader, he'd been a father, a grandfather and a husband, three times over he had worked as a lab tech at Stanford and Mills Hospitals, and liked to work with his hands, dabbling in carpentry and woodworking, meanwhile as detective work through the arduous process of figuring out who John could have killed in which states are countries John Get true pleads, not guilty of the murders of Janet and Leslie at his arraignment hearing. When I said. So, do you think as I think he's killed. killed a woman every year there for about four years in rage girl. Then he crowns I year later killed and year later he rapes. Let's the girl's name. Sharing Lucci! He's the one that I. And I said, there's no way she stopped. He just moved back to Newark Ohio with his wife and a couple of years. I Karen Damn t you? There are cold cases in that area and he was killing women there and then, but not too hot. He went back to La, and of course his kings comes up the middle of September. So we'll see. Why do you guys like Dangelo were like John. Get true plead not guilty when there is so much glaring evidence stacked against them well in cases like this by now. They realized that it's likely that they're going to be spending the rest of their lives in prison. So what the Kausar they're gonNA. Do It's entertaining. scumbags like them like to relive their crimes like to see the sad family members in the in the courtroom audience I mean. This is the Kinda Shit they live for. They haven't had this much excitement since last time they killed so this is why these guys do this. Even though they're gonNA, lose. Yeah, and it's there. It's there ace that's. The only bargaining chip that they have left and that's exactly what they're doing with it. So since Gertrude, capture northern California investigators have been working to contact the police departments in the various cities where John has lived over the years. And even though interdepartmental communication is better than it was in the seventies. It's still pretty awful. And they have their work cut out for them. Luckily the presume solving Leslie Janet's cases did generate a considerable amount of media coverage. Get Yours angry. Chilling seventy-four-year-old Mugshot was circulated widely, and the image of his face eventually found its way into the home of seventy year old seamy valley. Woman named Sharon Lucci. And she. His face immediately. Sharon recounted her story in an article for the P. Journal Star. She said in the sixties and seventies she'd been living in Hollywood California and she'd sometimes go to a social mixer at the Christian Church that she attended. And she had an encounter with John Jetro after one of these social gatherings. John had been with another attendee at this church. Makira, and he asked her out on a date, and Sheridan was kind of uncertain about the guy because he seemed a little bit her, but to older church employees urged her to go out with them, so she agreed to grab coffee with him somewhere for a date. Sharon got into John's car, but instead of drive into a coffee shop he ascended the dark, winding streets of hills before parking and a very secluded spot. Then, this guy turned Sharon put his hands around her neck and started to choke her. Shirt said I spent the entire night with his hands around my throat I thought he was going to snap the tiny bones in my neck. He repeatedly choked her relaxing his hands just in time before she would lose consciousness, and then between the choking episodes, he would chat seemingly to himself, saying God had given him a directive. Quotei said he had to kill me. He said God told him he had to kill beautiful. Women who are temptation to his Christian brothers. She recalled that as this man stared in her eyes, she didn't panic. The choking and releasing continued for hours until the sun came came up. then. She said for some reason when the sun came up, he decided to let me live Sharon believes that her ability to stay calm saved her life. Because if it was fear triggered excitement that Gotcha was hoping to get from Sharon, he wasn't going to get it because she didn't indulge him by panicking. Sharon also thinks that perhaps after spending so many hours with him. He reconsidered. Maybe, he had been wrong in assuming she was some type of temptress, she thought. He decided. This is a quote from her. He decided I wasn't the kind of girl he wanted to kill. The following morning Sharon got out of the car and he drove away. Sharon plan to tell the police, but by the time she walked home, she was too upset to talk about what had happened. I just fell apart, she said. I didn't know there was such an evil in the world. Because she was afraid should not report the assault. I was just a dumb kid, she said. Now Sharon says she feels guilty thinking that she could have prevented him from eventually committing leslie and gents murders in the years that followed. So. It wasn't until Nineteen eighty-nine that Sharon told anybody about what happened to her. She I told her fiance and then later her son, who was a child at the time to convey to him that he should never take chances on strangers, and this assault really haunted her for years so as soon as she saw this mugshot. She knew it was him. Sharon said that despite the fact that decades had passed his eyes look the same, and she'd never forget that, and she said quote I've been looking for. Those is for fifty years. And while there's no real way to really corroborate Sharon story, the please don't really have any reason to doubt her account. Because wall, no proof in the form of public documents have surfaced. That can prove. John Guitry was in Hollywood at this time. We know it's possible that he was there. Hollywood is hundreds of miles from Santa Clara and San Mateo counties, but perhaps get true lived in Hollywood before he moved to Stanford University area, or maybe he just paid a visit to Hollywood flying under the radar, getting hired to do manual labor working as a carpenter staying at motels, people were paid cash under. Under the table, you could rent a house for cash hotels for cash. You could give names everywhere you went. It's young. Jeffrey was killing women in Los Angeles starting in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, nine. That is a terrifying prospect because we know how many murders were happening here at that time will never be able to sort through all of them to figure out which one he may have committed. So the information, though that Sharon provided to the police extremely valuable to investigators because up until this point, they had no idea what motivated John Jetro they want to understand and analyze John gekas impulses his motives in. Maybe just maybe if they can't understand these things about this particular killer, they may be able to unlock more cold cases that he's responsible for. And they were deductions that we can make about John Get through when we line up his known crimes and compare them and contrast them. Now. His California slayings were similar, regarding rape and strangulation. Murder John's that we knew of Margaret Williams in nineteen, sixty three. Margaret Janet and Leslie at each been killed by strangulation with a ligature. Margaret, with pantyhose, Leslie with her scarf. and Janet with the caller from her own sweater. Each young woman was a Brunette. And each was left face down outside. And John Catcher evaded capture by changing his name on a whim whenever he really needed to. And plus the whole military brat thing made him hard enough to track down as it was John also leveraged variables that were really symptomatic of the seventies, women didn't report rapes for a number of different reasons, and there were dozens of active serial killers in California in the seventy s and police departments weren't really communicating with one another to begin with. There's something we brought up in the last episode that we want to circle back to the irony that John Getcha was caught essentially because of the search for GS K. and when you look at these predators next to each other, they're glaring parallels between them John batchelor was born in nineteen, forty four. Just Dangelo is born in Nineteen forty-five John. Get you was a son of an army sergeant, and so as Joseph Dangelo and for a time. Joseph Angelo lived on a base in West Germany where his father was stationed, and it's rumored that Dangelo witnessed the rape of his sister at. At the hands of two soldiers while living on the space in Germany, and as we know from our discussion with Barbara John also lived on a German army base as a kid where he committed his first murder, Dangelo became a cop, I with the Exeter pd where he worked for three years in the Auburn PD where he worked for one year before he was fired and then while John, never actually worked in law enforcement. He did become a security guard at Stanford for many years. There's also the fact in this is just wild that Joseph. Dangelo John JETRO look like identical twins. Google what they look like. Now I'm like this is the same guy like it could've been. Maybe. This is the archetype, though maybe the these are these guys and it's just like. This dude looks exactly like Dangelo so how? How much her? And you know what these serial killers have. These dead is that we hear about over and over. Guys. But although Dangelo has blue eyes in this guy looks like he might have Brown, but I can't really tell in his mugshot. They looked like twins so I, when I took that out I, went maybe I'd filled up the wrong person. And I read the name underneath and I said Oh my God they could be druthers. Chow Votes So the police believe that John. Get you spent time working as a carpenter moving around the state. Following available work and killing along the way. And what's interesting is that that was one of the main theories about who gs K. was. And why he was moving around the state undetected. that. Maybe he was a carpenter for higher, and he was just following the work. Another big K theory prior to his capture. Was the suspect worked in the medical field because there seemed to be medical connections to each one of the murder victims. John Jrue was working as a medical tech at Stanford in the early Seventies. And it said that Leslie Perlov and Janet Taylor had each when patients at this medical facility. Suggesting the catcher may have stalked his victims before killing them. And we know that a large part of GSK's Mo included the element of stalking. That's you they grew. It totally is. That's why they get those jobs there. Charity Guard at Stanford and he's in his early twenties. There's more than two girls that he killed I'm just saying and for him not to come clean and say no. I, don't believe in God. Hopefully you can have it in hell, but I wish he and he'd say before I die I. WanNa, tell you the truth. He won't is a pig. And I felt sorry for him. When I first of all I'm shocked, second of all I thought. I wondered about him all these years, and then when I read about what he said about the women, and how they kind of came on to him, and how he's likes scouting, and then he raped this girl scout and I thought Europe pig. Di. Another shared characteristic between Gechem Dangelo is that they both operated a serial killers while posing as these wholesome family man well, a lot has been revealed John Gastro. There's so much we don't know about him. About serial killers in general, what compelled him to choose to kill one girl, but not another. And these are questions that still haunt Barbara I don't think necessarily warn could. There's dark in. There's light and I have a lot of votes if I am sure that nature and nurture worked in common I'm sure that the human animal is very slot. I'll just say that human gene pool. Coenen. I think that we walk among. Murderers. Rapists every day. I'm convinced. Some now, it wasn't like I'll never trust nat again on the other hand I'm divorced. The idea that John JETRO could be responsible for more murders is chilling. And it's terrible. That nears past there were men who came before the John Get truce in Joseph Dangelo men who disguise themselves as kind, loving father figures in these men died, taking these secrets to their grave, because they were so good at leading double lives in killing without drawing any attention, the truth about the cruel psychopathy were. was never revealed. These men took any hope of justice, answers or closure for the families of victims to their graves with them in more time, more serial killers will be outed. Thanks to genetic genealogy technology, and I think slowly. Many of us will realize that we ourselves crossed paths in Brush shoulders with serial killers, because there are likely a lot more than we think. This justice and their exposure is absolutely necessary. Our worlds are going to change with the realization that there so many more men who love to kill than we ever could have fathomed and beyond that there are a lot closer to home than we ever could have imagined. Well huge. Thank you for a first degree Barbara. She is with us for the past two episodes that she's also in our facebook group. If you have a story, you would like to tell these email us. Hello. At the first degree PODCAST DOT com, you can follow us instagram at the first degree at Alexis linkletter Jack Vanik at Billie, Johnson. Join our facebook group. We're talking all the true crime things and stick around because we're GONNA kill some time and answer your questions. And remember and this goes out to the prison officials in Brooklyn. Only, you can prevent Gill. Maxwell killing yourself. and. Keep your friends close. Sources, for today's episode includes the Newark Advocate US military records Ancestry Dot Com Palo Alto, journal the Palo Alto online the PJ. Star court documents, and as low as our first guest is always our largest source. Did you know that right now? GYCO is offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car, motorcycle and RV policies. That's fifteen percent on top of the money GEICO would already save you. So what are you waiting for your dog to make you breakfast in bed with Belgian? Waffles as nice as that sounds, it's probably never going to happen, but at least there's never been a better time to switch to GEICO. Save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh visit GEICO DOT. Com to learn more. I took a pill that I bought. From CVS in our. Outside the box, it says stay awake pill. Yeah and I'm like this is going to be good. Okay well, we're GONNA keep that in, but this is the episode of killing time and I'm going to start this off with. We had a social distance. Hang this week ends, and we got pretty drunk and I remember it like ten PM. Ast Jared. If you guys wanted to take some caffeine pills. To. Did you take one ger? No. Jared! Jared has seen the episode of saved by the Bell and he knows. Today! Also the next day I wanted to play you guys. The Kanye West Song I'm like you have to hear the new song and like you made us listen to it. Multiple Times last night I was like Oh! Yeah! You know what we deserved that I haven't had a friend. Hang in a very very long time, and except Jack, forces shots on people, and I've never had someone in the last five years. Suggest Tequila shots like for no reason other than just to get. We're getting. Like okay. Here's the here's the thing can normalize you. Know I'm a grandma. I want to go to bed, but I want to be in bed by like eight pm every day and there's something about the situation of quarantine and the fact that like nobody gets to have any fun than when I have a little taste of fun I wanNA keep going going until I can't go no. Right and you did. The evening evolves where it was like he l.. Let's work on our multi record. And then the tears came, and then it was like. Let's take more shots and let's have a glass of water and then I tried once again to work on our multi-platinum record. and. It didn't happen, and it didn't happen, but here's the thing I don't think that there. It's a real front. Hang unless somebody balls. There is out and then the last time that we all socially. I is the four your is out. Only someone! Billy it's your turn nights or next. Are you ready for it I, don't know you'll have to break through those barriers we will are you. Are you crier? The cry. That's what makes you. A real man is a man that can admit he cries. Jared cries all the time. Sometimes he's cried many times in front of me. So. You know what you have kind kind is. You should do nothing but cry it suits. You. The is that could heal. Anything. We just a soft glance. In the right direction, you can bring happiness to anyone who receives your site. Sounds like. Can you hear me? Yes, he can I. Have. One of my headphones turned outwards senior. Okay so anyways the point of this killing time last week. I asked all of our first season in the facebook group. If you're not in the facebook, group joined the facebook group. We are having a ball in there and I just asked you know general questions that everybody would like to know, but mostly like focused on you know quarantine life so I think I'm GonNa Start with this first question that we have mentioned in private before, but we really gotta talk it out, and it's from Camille. And she said billy if you had to be quarantined on an island with Jack or Alexis who it'd be and why? Will I responded in the facebook group and I'll tell you what I said I said. You would one hundred percent. Pick Jack. I? Think somebody somebody answered this. And I did see this. Somebody answered because she sleeps more than me, and then you'd have more alone time. They nailed it. JACKO's to bed at nine. And then I would be able to be alone. From nine to like to, and then I would sleep in. Yeah, it would be. It would be Jack. Jared just side behind me. 'cause arts. And I buy off generic store brand caffeine pills. Even even if I can sleep, and I'll be like now. Let's get this party started. Yeah, you would. You would find some weird like weed on the island. This be like this biggest like stay up for twenty four hours. Be Like I'm dead, thanks! Now. Why would you wanNA sleep if your dreams are just going to be nightmares? Dot needs to be on a shirt. What was why would you sleep your? Nightmares, let sleep if your dreams or nightmares. Yeah, well. Who? Link Letter, my subconscious is trying to tell me something, and it's not can go to sleep bitch, 'cause we'll tore my. We'll show you. Your mind what your mind does to itself is worse than what reality does to you and say a lot because reality is not good to anybody right now. No, it's just a prison within a prison to be Nigerian. Okay. All right well. Let's move onto this next question. Wait. Who would you be stranded with a desert? I'll wait wait. I didn't choose. I choose jared. Alexis would be on an island with you, jared. He just blew a kiss from across the room. Yeah, did he blow with his? Is People with this kind sad crying? They? He'll feel better suddenly. Who would? I be on the island with. I mean I'd have to be with LAX. Just because you're my best and we've lived together before, so I know that we wouldn't kill each other we. We. I don't know I i. don't know what kind of arguments billion I would get into if we were alone the two of us. You know. Marin we've. We've never really hung on before so. Interesting, it could be really bad, but what? Let's take across trip together. That would be amazing road trip bonding experience. No one's friends after a road trip. Even your closest friends need like a two week. Break from each other after a road trip because it's just like. Everyone just feels a little sick inside of a car as baseline, you just feel a little sick. A little motion, sick, little, hot, a little a little irritable as a baseline then add somebody else feeling sick and bitching about it. And then someone being like. I paid for gas last time, and then suddenly someone's like. I WANNA go to Taco. Bell and I'm like I want chicken nuggets. Suddenly. Your best friend is your worst enemy. Woman also I think the fact that a road trip has really good in theory and really bad in practice. The first hour of a road trip is amazing. Maybe Vegas and then see even road trip to Vegas three and a half hours is two and a half hours too long it is. Anytime at a car is is. Never. I hate driving. Okay, our next question is. Co it comes from autumn. She says what does something a skill. You can do now that you couldn't do before quarantine. have any of US learned a skill? I started running for the first time in my life I didn't know I could do that. Were you not a runner before at all? Now. Is Hard is hard to make yourself run. Not when you're this, I'd. The endorphins or basically like little carrot, dangling in front of you that, makes. So, no, I'm like yes, give me the dopamine anything but this. Look. My. Similar, the workout I'm doing actually incorporates leg workout, so you're not skipping leg day I'm not skip it well. No, I'm work at every day and it's forty five minutes every day, and then it actually includes stuff as well. It's with this like it's a video of this Hollywood trainer Guy and if That's what I've been doing for the last two and a half months. WHO'S THE HALLOWEEN TRAINER? Dan Scardino, he like He. He did like Ryan Reynolds and you Jackman like he's like the Superhero Guy. You Jackman. He does a lot of humans. Right. Jack my skill. Is Not the same as yours. Because I I did actually work out for the first time in months this morning so I feel very proud of myself. I am maybe I. Am a fitness enthusiasts now I don't. Know. Mine hasn't been cocktail making. Which is something us? You know I am not very. Confidence in the kitchen, even with making like Vodka Soda, so this has been a good learning experience for me and I'm making some pretty crafty cocktails. And I feel. I haven't. Really experienced the fruits of that new new talent, but I look forward to that soon. I know because every time you want a drink, just WanNa Vodka Soda and I'm like but Alexis. What's this? Pampa Moose Ginger twist. I'll Martini. was in May has away to get me to agree to drink things that I never would normally drink drink. Like eight drinks that I would never say yes, to last almost over vs who says no to your friends? MOM like you see I. Oh? Do I want more chicken and biscuits I? Don't like that, but yes. Please another helping if it's a mom asking. Getting doesn't come. I don't know it's bad manners. You're always taught to be nice. Your friend's Moms so maze like I've queen. What am I gonNA? Irritate her. Never. Okay last question, last question guys go now. Oh Alexis I. Just think that we need to talk about this. Really quick and it was. From Back. and she says what movies and TV shows have you been washing during quarantine and I just wanted to give a little shoutout. To the TV show married at first sight's that Alexa might have been been jailing. As Zang. It really is what what a concept like married at first sight like. Married and then you're married. And you know what no matter what? Even if the person at the end of the aisle is good looking, they're not good looking enough because your expectations are just like you're so shocked at sensory overload, it looks so embarrassing. Everyone thinks everyone is ugly. In just like it's so weird, unless unless you're the six nine guy that turned out to be a psychopath, and then like when you're is your expectation, if reality, meet your expectations, then it's GonNa Crash and burn. You know. But everything else people stay together on that show, which is mind blowing to me, so it is, it is quite a wild ride. Will because I, think the thing is about marriage like they're not saying be an. With somebody in have crazy sex in be smitten in like then have it fizzle out. That's what they're asking you to find. Their asked me to find companionship. Is You. You'RE GONNA have to have a healthy relationship and that's really hard to do. Right, but it does seem like how much okay, so they say the match people up based on this data and chat. Do you think they really do that? Or you think they're like you good TV. We'll. We'll say yourself compatible based on all these factors like or do you think they're just like now I like. That one I'll push buttons. Let's do this isn't me funny? I think they do that for some people for sure. There's a specific couple I. DON'T WANNA like. But specific couple on the season that we just watched peop-. Butting heads all the time and I'm like yes. Yes Billy! Have you watched anything of note? I would watching floors lava. Floors lavas great show to. My mindless nine. And then the new unsolved mysteries. Unsolved mysteries. You know I really wish this is my like problem with unsolved mysteries is really wish they had a host. Yeah, you need. You need a new Robert Stack and. Who would that's a good question that we can end with WHO WOULD BE? A good. Robert Stack. See I, feel like they probably could have gotten and I. Don't know who's GonNa. Come to mind, but a podcast host true crime podcast hosts would be really good. But I don't know which one. But they need it like that's the thing with unsolved mysteries. It was done really well, but nothing is setting that apart from any other true crime show. That's I agree I agree. The only thing that setting it apart is the paranormal ufo type stuff. That's the only thing that it's. That's making a difference I. Think it's done well so well yet, but it's it's not and obviously the reach is huge, and they're going to get a response for the the unsolved crimes which I love, but it's not breaking any new boundaries, and potentially could have, but they were just like nobody can replace Roberts stacks or does not going to do it. I was also interested. I would have thought that because I've only watched three of the episodes, but one of them. That I watched was the UFO on which happened in like the sixties I think. And I would have assumed that if they're going to do unsolved mysteries way that they did it back in the day where they wanted like crowd source things to solve cases. podcast other pastas that it would be more current cases. Yes I am now you're saying. Because that was so long ago that like what new information could you possibly get about this Ufo? Citing in the sixties I, hear you. But I haven't seen it yet, so I didn't chairman. It's really good is just again. It's like it's missing the unsolved mysteries. -Ness of the past right and that's what needs. You know all right. Let's call this. Time of Death Fifteen O eight. People.
559: Ikigai (part 5 of 6) What Does the World Need - Jack Wilson
"You're listening to the daily sales tips podcast I'm your host Scott Ingram today Jack Wilson. The Guy with icky guy is back to talk more about Iggy Guy in part five of his six part series. Here he is either daily Sales Tips Community I'm Jack Wilson and back with tarps five of the six part series to find your Iki Guy. If you haven't been following along, you're GONNA have to go back and binge a couple of great sales tips from the last couple of weeks as we've already covered, what do you care about or what you love what are you good at and what can you be paid for? Today we moved to the last circle of the Guy Concept, which covers what does the world need. The first part of understanding what you think the world needs is to really define your world and there's a couple of ways we can look at this. The world could be your individual family life could be the community as a whole could be the company you're part of, or it could be the broader sense of our world in general. So for starters figure out which world you wish to impact the most through your day to day in your career. Once you've identified what world it is, matters most to you. The next important step is to identify exactly how you wish to impact that world. Is it a concept or a feeling? Is it a movement that you wish to bring to the world or is it something more simple? Perhaps, the easiest way to describe it is to share my journey or the story of how I discovered what the world needs and how I applied it to my personal career. When I look at what I do for a living it's sales and I thought to myself does the world really need sales? Now when you define it a little more specific than that. The answer for me is yes. Because what I think the world needs is it needs individuals to bring information and knowledge to another set of individuals who didn't previously have it and explain it to them in easy to understand in a compelling way to help them take action and it's not helping to take action for me. It's to help them to take action for themselves to achieve some other ends were were means to an end that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. That's what the real root of sales is to me and I think the world needed. Another great example was a study done by Dr Leo Wieser, Stanford University who surveyed janitorial staff at local hospitals. Now, her predisposed disposition was that she thought they would say their jobs were more of just a a paycheck just something that they did to make ends meet. But when she survey janitors and ask them how they felt about the roles she found out, it was quite the contrary a majority of the janitorial staff felt as though they were a critical part of the care team. Because if they weren't sanitizing operating rooms and patient rooms that other deadly diseases like Mersa and infections could impact hurt or kill even patients is part of the hospital. So they saw themselves fulfilling this critical role. So I want you to think whether it's a roll or what you do on a day to day what is it that you really do and does the world need it? For links to the rest of a tips in this series, and of course, a link to Jack Lincoln profile. So you can get connected with him directly. Just click over to daily sales dot tips forward slash five, fifty nine once you've done that make sure your subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss the last hip in this series or tomorrow's tip I'll talk to you then thanks for listening.
QAnon YouTube channels have a new way to avoid punishment (The Daily Charge, 5/14/2021)
"The youtube videos spewing nonsense cunanan areas out there but youtube has been proactive about taking them down. But now there's a new tactic being used by these cunard channels to avoid detection and punishment. I roger chang this. Is your daily charge here with the is reporting that the scoop on this new tactic google reporter rich navo. Welcome rich eight. Thanks much for hasni. Youtube has gotten a lot more aggressive in cracking down these conspiracy theory videos. But what did you find about some cunard channels have been able to stick around. Yes so we found a network of about forty channels and what they're doing is they're posting this cunanan content But they're leaving it up for about a week and then they're taking it down. And that seems a little counterintuitive. Like what why. What's the point of just keeping them up for a week. Yeah the idea is so for. The most part on content is banned on youtube and thinking is that if he could leave it up for about a week and then ticket down it can still make money on advertising. But then you can avoid being flagged by by youtube in its it systems interesting and and just a notorious. We're not gonna get into the specifics of these videos. Contain a lot of the the standard baseless theories floated by other sources. So they're not worth repeating here but what is important. Focus on all these tactics in the way they're evading punishment just for our listeners who are steeped in all things youtube Briefly talk about youtube three strikes rule and how it actually goes about a stopping out some this content. Yes so with youtube rules. It's it's like baseball through sexual you're out for your first penalty. You typically get a a one week. Suspension that prohibited from posting new content If you get a second strike within ninety days it comes at the two weeks suspension and third strike out. It's a permanent ban. Got it in so the idea here is by removing these videos before youtube can find them they can just continually keep going with us. That's correct because youtube systems largely. I mean they've got some. Ai systems that proactively flagged stuff. But a lot of it is there depending on users people to to see this stuff and flagged for them and so if If the stuff gets taken down voluntarily before Flagged them than they're not gonna get caught. Ryan seems a little counterintuitive. But i guess you you've found that this is really part of a broader network of channels doing this. This isn't just one channel popping up audio and taking it down every week. There's there's some scale to this right right so we found a group of about forty channels doing this and there've been hundreds of deleted videos and so the idea is that it's kind of a cost benefit analysis right so if you If you put a video web in its gaining lots of us you're not gonna wanna take it down because it's it's it's ad dollars right. But if you can take down and not get flagged it may be beneficial in that. You're you're not gonna have to set up another network you're not gonna set up another channel again. You're not gonna have to grow an audience in so for the people who are doing this. It's it's kind of a calculus. And so they're they're kind of making that trade off. So it's like you're not looking for any kind of big viral hoods. This is really step by step eking out small. Traffic's company views. One of these videos actually get. So that's what's really interesting is usually with stuff like this. A viral hit is is the goal. But that's actually the opposite of the goal. It seems like here because you just kinda wanna fly under the radar. We found some videos regaining. It's not huge. Somebody's were getting about one hundred and fifty thousand views Somebody is getting as low as eight or nine thousand so there's a range but nothing was too big and ultimately what's the point of these channels is it spread these theories or religious stomach. It's hard to say Youtube says adage really just to make a buck they have flagged the stuff for being spam in so the thinking that these these these channels are posting content inflammatory content that will get viewed Mainly a little viewed. And they'll get the they'll get the money it's not necessarily for for forming opinions or or intuitive people How did you cover this acting like. How did you get the scoop so just to take you back to Something previously did in march twenty twenty. We did another investigation into a separate set of channels that were doing similar things. They had evasion tactics that were pretty novel for example they were doing things. Like hiring voiceover accurate. Read a script or zooming in on different parts of the video at different speeds in order to to trick you tubes systems and about a few weeks ago a stanford university student named noah scepter reached out because he'd read our our story and said that he saw channels doing similar things and when i looked at some of the videos that he had said when i would try to come back to them and and and revisit them a couple days later i noticed that they were gone. And so that's how we started kind of looking into this thing and that's the that was really the germ for the story got it. And what did you have to say about this when he brought to them not much Said before they flagged this. They said that they flagged these channels for violating their their spam all sees. But they didn't say much about the tactic of leading video systematically interesting it could be. This tactic might be too new for them to to really really react to respond to. I mean they were very closed. Mouth about it Yeah what what's interesting though. Is that one of the reasons that this is kind of fascinating is it undermines effort that recently been pushing last month they introduced. This new metric called the violative view rate which intends to show. How many do rule breaking videos got before they were caught and removed. And so this kind of shows how opaque the situation really is right. This idea that maybe not one single video. Got a huge number of us but cumulatively able to youtube they're able to break up a decent number right right and if some of these videos are being deleted voluntarily before they get caught there are violated use. That are being candid for a right. Right there never flagged it's interesting. I mean he talks about the the effort that youtube has taken to crack down on some of these videos. A cow successful or unsuccessful has been in in its effort to tap down on misinformation on its platform so the violative view rate here is is helpful. Youtube says that they're doing a good job. They're doing a better job. They say in the fourth quarter of twenty twenty. The violated b. rate was point sixteen two point eighteen percent And they say that's down from three years ago when the rate was point. Sixty four two point seventy two percent. The pelham is that these are not absolute numbers their their range of percentages and youtube doesn't say how many videos are actually in its entire platform so without these without that context. It's hard to tell what these numbers really mean. Right and like relay ultimately how big of a promises if we can't get clear answers right. Yeah well rich. Thank you for your time. You can check out historian sina dot com if you have any questions his on twitter at the daily charged or sanford wrecks. Just for me by heading to seen it. That's you plush daily charge anti select what you heard. Please rate subscribe podcast. It really helps out for the daily charge. Roger chang thanks for listening.
Why your mood is important!
"Hey guys if you haven't heard about anchor it's the easiest way to make a podcast. It's free and they even distribute your podcast for you. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. Download the free anchor app or go to anchor dot. Fm to get started again. Download the free anchor app and go to anchor dot. Fm to get started. You're listening to victory over the mind. A goto podcast connecting you to your authentic self. I am your host and founder christina. Lorraine this is our ninth episode. I believe and today we're going to talk about why your mood is important and i apologize. I know i haven't done a podcast in months but back we're going to do one oregon do one on moods so you are never without a move while your mood may change. You always have a set of feelings and views at any given time good bad or indifferent. Your mood is important to your mental cognitive and physical health. So what are moods. Moods and emotions worked together as part of a complex arrangement of how you view and feel about the world. According to doctors at the psychology today moods differ from emotions because moods lasts longer than emotions. Moods are more general than emotions. Moods are not as intense as emotions but emotions can change very quickly. People can be happy one minute and angry just a few minutes later depending on the changes in their situation but that anger compact disc. If a person is in a good mood moods can last days even weeks. A paper in the international journal of design less eight moods ranging from unpleasant to pleasant and energized to calm the moods identified include tense nervous irritated annoyed board weary gloomy. Sad excited lively cheerful. Happy relaxed carefree calm serene. Most people identify their mood as being happy or sad or perhaps excited or calm. Psychologists divide moods into distinct groups to be better clarified to better clarify them. In contrast researchers have identified over a dozen different emotions and numerous com combinations that create complex emotional states. many people don't think about their mood or recognize what mood they're in and tell. They consider why they responded to a situation in a certain way. Moods are less intense and noticeably noticeable to most people while emotions are typically easy to identify or spot in yourself and others moods affect your perspective perception and thoughts so neuro science. Scientists have discovered that your mood affects what you notice about the world and how you process your thoughts to solve problems. A good mood causes you to consider your internal feelings and consider what is happening in the world around you. A bad mood turned your attention in work on yourself and blocks external input cognitive control or the ability to process internal or external input allows you to focus on a complete complex task. You may need to block out the sounds of a barking dog or rain. Outside your window to balance your checkbook. But when you're in a good mood your perception is more open to considering how you feel and how external circumstances can influence you when you're in a bad mood you don't notice anything outside of yourself for example. A person in a good mood who is taking a walk will notice the flowers along the path. A person in a bad mood is so caught up with thinking about their feelings any motions that they won't even notice the flowers because of the difference in perception between the moods. How you process information to think and solve problems differ. A person in a good mood is more likely to see multiple viewpoints and possible solutions. A person in a bad mood camp focus beyond their negative emotions so moods affect how you spend your time. Psychologists at stanford university determined that people in a good mood will choose to do tasks that they don't enjoy but need to accomplish people in a bad mood usually decide to do activities that make them feel better. The motivation to perform and complete tasks is based on a person's mood so clutter. An unfinished tasks can also contribute to a bad moon. It becomes a vicious cycle of not getting things done. Because you're in a bad mood and then being in a bad mood because you're not getting things done a complicating things when you're in a good mood helps you increase self esteem. Because you feel good about what you've done but also mood can affect what you eat. As well the nutritionist. At the health food guide state that people often eat poorly because of stress or a bad mood and i can say yes. I have done that when i'm in a bad mood. I usually eat fried foods. Unhealthy foods can become a way for people to find pleasure that they don't get in other areas of their lives. Oh alcohol and drug abuse are also loon linked to mood disorders. Because they offer temporary comfort and the illustration of a better mood your mood is important to how you function in life your perception thoughts and even your eating habits are all affected by your mood so i hope you guys enjoyed this episode. If you have any thoughts please let me know. I do have a new website. It's called a mind. Full spirit dot com. Please check it out and of course I'm always for donations to help out with the recording studio and cost and stuff so please check it out a mindful spirit dot com and thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day.
Why and How to Incorporate Music into Kids Routine
"In the previous episode. I talked about the positive effects of music for our overall health in today's episode. Let us focus on kids. Hi i'm anthony. Dave enjoy listening to mothers caracal. Podcast a place where i talk about this aspects of parenting and shared might've centuries to make your journey snoop and beautiful. I also talk about a motivational topics. That will make your life easy. So let's learn together. Let's and grow together at mothers girka. L- podcast today. We are going to talk about why and how to incorporate. Music indicates rooty children their introduction to music against way before he or she comes into this world. The moment a baby is conceived. There are waves transmitted to the fetus when mother dogs or Or is listening to any music. The baby also feels the vibrations that is why it is always advisable for the mob to be to listen to soothing music. We moms experience the movements of our babies when we listen to different kinds of sounds. The formal introduction happens when they come into the world. Even an infant can differentiate between high and low pitch balance. Often make different sounds to create some instant music. Kids love to play with spoons and both they want to test. Every utensils durability by banging it let me see why and how to incorporate into kids routine even simple games songs and back and forth play bill brain and body coordination human side wired to be sensitive to sound patterns and this sensitivity allows music to foster communication and imagination in young children even before babies talk their babbling and sound play help develop the neural pathways necessary for listening and speaking infants who here language directed and responsive to them babel more and have larger vocabularies than toddlers when they hear and see other singing young children weekly pick up the habit. They understand that by using sound they can understand hard described the world around them so how we can ungodly parade music and took routine so that it will become an integral part of their development. What happens when we incorporate music indicates routine. Let's check that one out i i. It builds their vocabulary second. It improves their memory. Then it also improves their attention and concentration. It gives them bright and access a stress reliever. Let's take a short break. And he had from our sponsor. Thank you for the love and support. You have given to the show so far. It has been an incredible. Johnnie guarding episodes an anchor with the creation tools. Now you can also regarding at your part guests right from your phone or computer and you don't have to worry about distribution anger well distributed on nine other platforms not justice. You can make money from your part guests. Can we ask for more so download the free anchor app or go to dot. Fm to get started. And now let's get back to the show first. Let's talk about better vocabulary. Learning and listening to lyrics increase vocabulary on an ongoing basis singing practice for children helps to strengthen the lips and tongue through exercise. It also helps them to speak more clearly yet. Another finding from new imaging was that even brief musical training results in an increase in blood flow in the left side of the brain. This is thought to result in improved language processing ability. Second is better memory. Learning to sing as a child causes the brain to perform multiple tasks at once. This helps to develop the memory from memorizing lyrics remembering of acute to start singing. The brain learns to handle more task and is require to perform them simultaneously. In addition singing. Rages debriefing getting more. Oxygen to the brain which helps with natural development emotional and concentration improves attention and concentration so children when playing an instrument or learning a new song they have to focus on the node san warnings to memorize it similarly in singing children learn importance of listening and self discipline to learn their favorite songs. It gives them pride when they can perform any new song. They feel proud of their work. And it gives them confidence at school being a part of a group or choir gives them a sense of belonging. It also gives them a chance to make new friends. It acts at tressler reliever when an infant cry. We sing a lullaby are play some coming music and in a few minutes either day defend either comes down or even falls asleep for older kids coming. Music for kids can help sued them. In anxious times Had stanford university found that listening to music seems to be able to change brain functioning to the same extent as meditation. Luckily there are many ways to find a playlist whenever you are your child. Want to hear something soothing. So how can we incorporate music into our kids routine so that it will become an integral part of their development for young kids. Maybe we can begin our day with some soothing. Music include singing are maybe organiz a dance. The home in their everyday study dime. They've love it. You can also join them in this fun activity and get some extra size now for the older kids big today by playing some soothing music at home like mantras or some chanting or any off Just instrumental music. Listen to their favorite songs with them. It's okay if they do not pick your favorite song. Get an at home karaoke equipment and sing some classical tunes with your kids are sometimes you have you so that you can download the kariuki apps. If you're going on a long distance drive add some god get you to entertain them along with these benefits. There are some other benefits to like better. Iq better test scores. Spatial temporal scales. Music is an essential an important part of a child's life. You want to make sure that positively affects them faster. Music can make you feel more alert. Upbeat music can make you feel more optimistic and positive about life a slower tempo can quiet your mind and relax your muscles making you feel sued while releasing the day's stress in this situation when things are pretty unpredictable of all ages. Have a lot to handle aspirants if we can include this. I mean the music into our family's routine. It will be wonderful experience for all of us if you like today's episode. And if you want to check out. What all is dead on mother's google podcasts. Then don't forget to check out other episodes on this show. And i would love to know your feedback. If you're joining me for the first time then thank you for tuning in and yes. Please do subscribe to the channel. If you are listening to this podcast on then. I request you to give your ratings and reviews and i would love to know your inputs on how i can make the show more entertaining and more meaningful for you. Please feel free to reach out to me through. Some social media handles alpina underscored. They want twitter alpina boppard on instagram and mothers gurgle on facebook. You can also email me at mothers. Podcast jima dot com. And if you like to read some parenting articles than do check out my blog. Www dot mothers dot com. So i will see you soon. Then stablest stay happy happy.
S2E21: Dr. Fred Luskin: Director of Forgiveness Projects at Stanford University, and teaches classes on The Art of Happiness, Meditation, and more
"This is the no ego podcasts where we ditched the drama and entitlement and transform your role place. I'm signed Wakeman. In this episode of the no ego pipe cast. I get the opportunity to interview one of my favorite faculty. Members of all time fed less skin. He teaches the happiness class at Stanford University. And he and I get together we talk about choices that lead to happiness. We talk about grieving for giving. We even get into a conversation about venting. He takes it to a whole new level of sophistication in answer. That question is ever. Okay to Vantaa hope you enjoy listeners. Welcome to another episode of the no eagle podcasts as promised in series two. In those times. I can get personally connected to one of my great teachers. I will bring them to you in. So imagine I'm at Stanford and I'm getting to work with. Some leaders in their healthcare system and familiar voice is onstage. Right after me. And I love the message. It was brilliant. And then I realize that it was who I call duct to Fred, Fred, less skin. I couldn't believe that he was talking then. And now as talking to us so welcomed, Fred, I'm so happy to have you and. You have just wonderful credentials. I just want to mention some people know who you are mine you're seeing is that you're still the director at Stanford University of the forgiveness projects is that true. Wellness education, Stanford, I I've been working in modest ways throughout tra- twenty five years year. But. The we we think recently able to. Offered to undergraduate and graduate, swallow the campus wellness classes on meditation and compassion and emotional intelligence. And it's a wonderful addition to the the handy stuff that is taught here. In our our talk of while our talks were both helping with a conference that looked at resilience in ways in which people can ensure that they respond in ways that don't lead to burn out in the workplace, and one of the things I think you really drove home I loved it was just some of your understanding about happiness. And I remember when somebody I said to me that happiness was a choice in that suffering was optional it took me a while to understand that. But you do some wonderful working in happiness. And so are there any big secrets in the life hacks on Huddah had get happiness for pursuing it. And I like. Weasel wheedled away to be able to teach a happiness classed undergraduates about ten years ago. Says in terms of a human being. It's one of the most important decisions we make or don't make. The mine has a whole pint of setting which is at survival and problem solving and disaster prevention. But actual happiness is not a priority of our basic survival at all. And if we're not careful we go through a day very much in survival mode and then. Maybe just accumulative mode, but rarely in like happy mode and the cost of UCLA work enormous sum. It's shocking to me sometimes living here in Silicon Valley to see such wealthy. Successful educated. High-powered people looking so Aram looking so harried rushing everywhere. And it's not happy and. A waste of human potential. It really is a mess. It is interesting to me is I work in healthcare. Or just what these amazing brilliant leaders? Is. You can't you know, it's not about smartness. It's not about this external things that you have. Because whatever I accomplished today we'll be faded by tomorrow. I mean, it's just this really constant life of of letting go but happiness. Just really alludes people and yet. You think preach that you can it doesn't have to allude you. It has to become over one's life. Like the north star. You know, it has to be come your guy. For some people. It is some relief that seniors older. People are happier. By far the middle aged people. Some of the research suggests that the pretty young and the pretty old but the happiest among us. Before they entered the fray of the workforce somewhat after but the qualities that allows older people of to be happier is they stop sweating the small. Because they recognize the time is short and that just no purpose in impeding every battle and most of us younger than that. Don't do that reflection. Don't recognize that there are things better less just ignored like again, a co worker who isn't saying everything you on every decision. The bus makes your dog like or even work situations that change with your mission. If you don't put happiness somewhere on that venue. Just gonna react each of them as regular repetitive stresses and keep us bound to an adrenalin back system that has very little wiggle. Very well. Sad in a we talk a lot about stop judging which is kind of put perspective around and in in start helping in so. I think one of the choices that an you talk about this that we can make because happiness is default setting is to see everything from kind of a world of scarcity and judgment at that low self, but one of the things we can do one is put things in perspective. But to even go the extra step in look for the good in situations in people actively is that something that you have found that contributes to happiness is that action of tackling up and looking for positive. Looking for the credit is. The nobler casks of human beings. We can train minds I practice. Some of this myself. I've seen effective other people. We're never going to get rid of our negatively and our threat and fear. That's really exists for protection what we can. Call to is alternatives that exist side by side. You walk into a room where you don't know anybody it's natural to feel apprehend ship, you we have a thousands of euro brain decide designed to is it safe or these people late made will they have my interests at heart, and my foreigner difference. Whatever is also a threat bekker's. If you pay much attention to the mechanisms e feel Lauren and combative, and you know, that that you're on edge. That's not going to go away. But you can train yourself also to look for commonalities nice gestures appreciation that they offered you. These are these are simple patterning. So we can do to look for. And then the negativity your fear has some competition in your mind of what it is you want to pay attention to. And what information you wanna use to guide your life? I love this. Like, you get a choice back in one of the things since I heard you talk. You reminded me of he had taught me this before bed. When I'm noticing all those just that hard wearing of stress indicators, I really get it down to. It's only me and that becomes against you. There was no us in really the great things happen when there's an us when I can find either that connection or give myself a choice that there's not just lack. There's also. Some goodness. I'm saying the freedom to choose between the two, but there's something you said about when it gets to be me verse. And I lose the us that day. I know it's hard to remember when you give these patients all the time. So powerful. I mean, it dreadful purpose. To motivate you to keep your full attention on a problem that that's what it all of this for. It's a it's a primarily focusing tool, and that focusing tool make sure that you are alerted to the problem that is in front of you or is remembered. That toil makes it very hard for people have any sense of us. It's very primitive individual base bible. You know, some people are able to, cultivate, of binding in that time sitting they have a little oxidised or other chemicals in their everybody has that threat mechanism wire. That can be trained that can be trained to also that you can go through your day. For commonality with people. But you you can see people in say, oh, wait a second. You know, I have dark year this person is blood. They're different than. Or you remind yourself what we both have air or sure we both want to look good. So we put our hair in different ways as we have different inception of what they'll be good. You can meet somebody if different religion, and you can focus on the differences or you can say, well, look what both trying to find some transcendent. Meaning in the slight when you're at all, it's just the expression of it. But these are happened speck of of. These practices during the day is even more importantly, these are probably some of the most critical stole to bring home with with each of us to be connected to end kindly towards our family and friends agree. I think it's so important one times in inspired leader. When those ideas just come to you don't know where they come from my head to the people who were might team, really focused negatively another didn't know what to do. And so in the moment of exasperation, I said the two of you need to get together. You've got twenty five minutes come back to me with a list of a hundred ways in which your similar in in the beginning. The list was really, you know, we both have ten fingers. We both have ten toes a hundred and then they really got to that point. Like we both care deeply about providing for families. We both are passionate about their work and in it did just that. Just in that moment, though, small miracles that happened with the change in perception or perspective on so looking for commonalities is one habit. If we had the cliff notes from the happiness class that you teach at Stanford. What are some of the other habits were think you might of called a meta decisions we can make during the day goals to be happy. What should I be doing during the day? The commonality. Is important another important one. Oh, simple. At the cow, simple cure is if you catch a disease. It's really not that hard. If you're in jail 'cause you murdered eleven people and it's much harder to bring back neck. If I but one of the other things that I believe is essential is some self regulation practice. Some kind of grieving meditation prayer positive statement at formation visualization something that can be practiced for as little as like his came to thirty seconds at a time. To stop the nervous system from over accentuating the negative and the reactively that comes chronic. If you're not careful. Oh. If if you call in into work, and we're busy end distractive, which many of us are. In the nervous system of bills of Strath and also create some they coma slate debris from the distracted there. So if you're doing one thing that that default network is not quite as active because you're focused default like what's wrong with my life network at how could I make sure that I I, you know, it's like the the part of you that when you go to Hawaii remembers that you didn't clean the cat later. You know what? Anything you're doing? So one of the practices that is really a central that focus or concentration practice, which which is different than our our chronic checking the hone working on messages looking around like just our ability to focus this team compromised by all the attentional things that we have, but you can practice very simply, okay. On the take thirty seconds out. Just to flow may breathing. Or when I'm done checking my messages, I'm going to actually fully looking by Email. Four. I do something else is create a moment of transition where you nervous system. Get some break. Or I'm gonna you know amid in his apparent of better future. These are all relax Asian focusing practices. But you know, you can stop for. Will you actually have to image? How good it will be to come home and meet somebody I love, and so you get a little bit of built Amine in your system. But it's a focus in practice on positiveness. Besides commonality is number them. But some degree of self-regulation away you both quite nervous system. Now. More importantly, yet a sense of self efficacy today. You don't feel overwhelmed Annetta control, which is the worst thing to have those two people at work like they lose the sensor on Jarjur. This just like somebody running around title put out fires. That can internal experience with some self regulation practices and not as you don't you're Pioli. But it's not as bad the other. Besides just looking for commonalities -regulation. I mean you deal in healthcare at you'll little, but I into things and the inability that we all have to appreciate to start our staggering abundance. The minister. Say the privilege humping born in the United States of America. The the positives of having a minded mighty that work. There are so many things to appreciate. And those are the simplest wants when you want to take that even more deeply you start appreciating other people. And then you win the commonality and the gratitude appreciation become sinner, just an income becoming credibly powerful. So one, you know when you walk into work. It's really good trimming of job just just that. And hope for them. If you buy dinner to be thankful for happen to work at a place to give you dinner or lunch. That's that's credible bounty. It suits. Who would I someone I work with folks is the eagles really good at dismissing the buried things you've just suggested like self-regulation practice or intense granite intentional gratitude, or because the eagle wants to live and these things, you know, will really change the fuel you're giving your brain like the ability the know that if I can just self-regulate for a moment, I can tap into my own dopamine source just became away where I was like this is amazing suffered. I think when we're in in an ego lands were seeing the world to ego. We diminish this. And you had a Stu just a simple exercise. We all need to go into just they act of not being near our phones for a few minutes, and they act of just envisioning ah positive future. I mean, you literally could physically feel different in it took a few minutes few minutes. So I really want. To inspire people to dig in. Go ahead. Sure. Home. What the purpose of the ego is. And the purpose of the ego is to make sure that the the self identification. This is me, and I have to protect me, and I have to promote me, those are all true statements. The purpose of the ego is to create a kind of. Person around that me protected and the energy. That we all decision e-, you know. So the eagles job is to make sure that experience creation is successful. So all good. The question comes what happens when that job is not that well done which happens often. Was the ego alone is not sufficient, you're what it wants. I mean, it's great at promoting the self and getting that most. But without other parts of the character and personality come conservative almost always fail. Szekely over us. That was I think as humans, it may be part that makes us human. It might be something, you know, that we have in Evelyn that other species might not have. But I think we got so enamored with it that we you. We overuse it. And there's so many other ways of of knowing in experiencing the world, so. Yeah. Coming from a psychology background is like the ego has a purpose. But it shouldn't be the default lens in what I like to have people do just understand the lens. They're saying the world through to make sure is that they're able to move through the world with all of their intelligence, or they can love somebody with all of their intelligence instead of just that, you know, survival instinct, or whatever that may be side love your ear clarification on that. If you had five egos out there. Nobody would pass the ball. It would be no like help defense. And where in exactly that situation, which is the EKO perspective Asenjo. Necessary, but not sufficient that necessary, but not sufficient. But when taught that you know, that would be me that would be one of the really useful things to just remind people that you have this ego sense that you desperately need. But if you only rely on it's going to drive you off, you know, it's gonna take you around. So true. So true. You know, a really in a follow up on this podcast with some great links to some of your talk on happiness and in other things because I think that people don't realize that if your goals happiness. There's decisions you need to make throughout the day that than support a movement, you know, consistent movement towards that goal where people get derailed that ice him, especially at work as when all of a sudden lake. They get caught with a grudge towards some day. Like, it's not just a an issue that happened, but something they can't move on. And ultimately or some of those things that people feel that happened to him that completely derailed their life that they have a hard time forgiving people about in. I know that is some wonderful parts of of work that you do research. How do you move through a grudge like if I want to be happy, and I'm working intentionally to be grateful in see come nowadays. But gosh, darn at I got something. I just can't let go off. You know, when I first started to happiness. Forgives us twenty years ago. The the two ways that were open to me to do. So or one that it was good for physical health. And that's what got a lot of publicity and a lot of interest because we research that forgiveness was good for physical which seem like such a does to me. Remember, all these like, you know, the New York Times would call up, and I'd say, you know, I walked into a second grade classroom, and I said to the kids. Okay. You got one group of people who are the another group of people who are who. Do you think hard? You gonna be in better late the euro's could easily forgiveness. That. But the other way that was one of the ways that are were separated from other forgiveness work and helped us become more established was I set at radio print. I, you know, if you wanna be happy you can't be better to their musically. -clusive? But it's like a GIO. That almost the same thing. But human beings are. So. They're so protective of the cell. They're so limited in their Persian of us usually their vibe their family or the people who are really with them. And they're so resistant to kind of flexibility took all the lights on. On constantly creating. Insight their head about so many things. That is a recipe unhappy. In so many times the. The obviousness of that is really loss on the person a make you can keep this grudge. Let's play that out or you can let it go. Let's play that out and people keep the grudge to make sure someone else offers. I'm like, well, no, I think if you keep the gradual suffer with I let it go. Then they're off the hook like or if you let it go you're off the hook. And it just seems like people start to do some pretty interesting irrational reasoning, if we're non reasoning in that process, you know, I. I'm familiar with Byron Katie, but love her, and she, you know, one-time taught me that true forgiveness is when you realize that what you thought happened never really did end. If you inquire on your story, you probably can unravel something down to the facts in the facts of just as neutral face a lotta times, I haven't needed to forgive anybody. Because once I really do my inner inquiry were can giving benefit doubt. And I realized that what I thought happened never really did. There's so much freedom of in that. You know, I I love Byran Katie stuff and hers, his poverty, the Simplifier Avia work that I. But that could kick your piece of I haven't found that mobile. Well, I. Verity of the offense. Dependence on the situation. So Saliha point well taken suspend on that. Like, if your you're talking to somebody push married, and you know, they're Parker does some meat on night in the other or. Absolutely nothing really have been a lot of it is. The story you're telling you, so. In your like arguing with reality. Now, I we don't we? Enough situation of just horrible bio. Unsuspecting violent hug people or group violence, and I I know that that is true ceful, it's a outgrowth of the stoic philosophy. You know, like his just what happened, but your opinion on it. And that's absolutely true. However, what I think is even more true for at least really strong impact justices from our accounting system as a human being is the necessity for grief. And when people are given appropriate time and support degree, would you? Incurease and miserable. Angry and frustrated and wondering what the hell's wrong with the universe? I believe that too is appropriate essential as part of the DP ailing process because if people are honest or say at some point in time as the healing as the grief goes on at some point two time, neck, we either resolves or remains out stipple. It's at the point where the revolution would be helpful. But it's not there. Byron katie's were gigs and time. But if somebody tells me that their kid was shot in a neighborhood at three o'clock in the morning, and they were delivering pizza. I would never do that. I work with them. Really appreciate I'm happy. You jumped him at that clarification. Because as I'm saying for my own personal experience with a lot of gratitude, I was thinking more about the grudges in office stuff, and I had massing Kip on the podcast, and he talked about trauma and as therapist. I'm so glad that you. Help may remember to differentiate because it's so so true when we get into complex in big US scrape, and at some point after all of those feelings, you do get faced with a bit that there's a resolution to this. I do have some choices to make about how let it define me. But that certainly is premature until the whole process happens of, you know, those those this real feelings for me just to declare by that feelings that come from a story, I made up are very different than from those visceral feelings that come from significant trauma in loss in just appreciate you. Connecting. Dan, Schick -nificant, let me let me help you. Schrool little awesome. If if you know, I'm not trying to patronize you just, but if you think of like a work situation, right? And let's say somebody is all to somebody else. Now work. And you know, half the time it has nothing to do with the offended person. The person who was awful either suffering themselves distracted or corrupt or they didn't mean it. But if there's some situations where they would just nasty what I think is healthiest is help people like wacky CNN is that they have this Wayne Joe emotions in the each of which is appropriate, but it different times of what different intensities. So there's there's a there is a procreate anger there. There is appropriate self pity. That they have uses. So. Somebody's cut off in the freeway weight. And this is an example of that. It's fine gives them the Famer for fifty per five seconds recognized that's enough. And then move. There is some value in some great of expressive as of frustration of all the rebellion. One. Whole range of emotion active. Wonderful aging for people the use of a motion, but three generates like self confidence. Even when things are bad, generous, spun which emotional experience, that's prob-. Brit. I love the end in there. I love the ends in there. I think. One of the things. No, it really it really does one of the things I try and sort out insert out for folks. And it's hard. You know, even just like a one hour presentation is that. You know, for me, I believe that denting which is how you try and keep feeling alive after it's no longer appropriate that a Bentinck process for me is in helpful. But what's the first visceral feeling in? How do you express that or acknowledge it or let it let it be there for you? And what the balance is important. Is you just give me a contract? I really wanna think more about that. It's like feelings happen. That's the pain sufferings of it optional, but there's intensities that change. According to situations that need to be appropriate. Also timing of those in time, you're with it and the time that you're expressing a it takes two more sophisticated level. So. The really important. Millions quack. Bring into workplace is like. Cultivation remembrance. Thank your love. We. Remember that we've been loved we are. That we will be loved. We are negatively affected by difficulties in our day-to-day experience like the more security the more of secure attachment that we can create for so the less vulnerable. We are the normal interpersonal though. You want to cultivate, relationships that you can rely on to process stuff. So if you have a workplace friend, which is one of the most important things to do a work is yet support and colleague is terrible. Then if is so helpful if you have a wheel friend to be able to talk to that friend or to say to yourself look upset by this. But I'm gonna go home gonna talk over part tomorrow, we'll deal with it. But if we don't fail those boats EMA and able wariness of are connected this and relationship in our data days spurious, we are so much more vulnerable at so much more prone to react with anger at of our here than if we practice coach of Asian of belonging in positive. In heaven as people in your life that will help whole space for you know, as a as a counselor. I've worked with people in work with my own kids that getting that support. There's some appropriate ways to do the NADA appropriate ways. Because sometimes what I see is people have someone at work, but the work they do together in the support is more just really kind of Benting in viciousness rather than sharing feeling since. I try and help people understand the difference between I feel hurt by this. And I was surprised by it. And I I really thrown off by it versus he is such a prac-. And he does this crap in do is it is in resilience for different the type of support the way you're getting support you do you have some recommendations there, or is it all helpful. The reason I said it's because a lot of people I try and say you feeling sounds like this. But then tting sounds like that in in a lot of people will say, why just need time to vent. And what I I want to be supportive to them. But what I'm hearing is character assassination and story in in fury rather than just that feeling. Around the venting for civil. So if you say you, so I know that if I could too big to, you know, these two people again by chest, and I'll be okay that thing is fine. If what you're looking for is only people with you that your of victim. And that somebody else is a terrible person that will probably not do that much long term. Good solicit those. It's empathy versus sympathy. If I look for somebody that clued with me in building armies that's just going to keep that negatively alive, but having somebody hear me in ended with so, you know, what what do you think I could do next that would be helpful? I loved. That was the other piece when they looked at. It was some research that look what you horri- people who stayed stuff in difficult situations from those. There were two things. One is the people stayed stuck have done telling a lot of people about the issue. People who move through it here with a couple of close, friends and family so help bad happened at work. It's very essential to three or four people know about it in care about you. What is destructive is walking around defining yourself by on the one the bus shifted, and you everybody because of your identity, if you're not private with something with analyst since it's like, they can tell us then they can save face because it's harder identity. But when you tell everybody about it, you almost have to be the person who needs to continue the fight perhaps us what's going on in politics. Today rights is that we've got a lot of public. People who. Approach. Token vice? A less. Healthy approach reject it entice ending looted the advice as part of the indifference of the world to myself ring. So if if if you're winsome somebody head of bad experience, not catastrophic of catastrophic get fired if you get hired don't stop somebody from benthic. It's like you're gonna need then for a weaker tour. Among if you're really unfairly fire, you're gonna need that. It's it's part of the brain's reorganization to load of very new reality. But if it's a minor thing, you know, like the the older be or I have to work late or two people talking. I might back or you know, whatever growing minor stuff. And the most appropriate listening is here. The law. So the one thing or whatever it is. To make a simple cash to move. I think that's really good differentiator twin the severe trauma in the day to day. Most of what I am feeling is disrobing teams as the stated day this lack of ability to be mentally flexible and writing go and emitting on that the piles up as further proof. Why this won't were rather than a real sense of how it could work. I wanna be sensitive to your time. Friday, you nearing the end. So you can go teacher how you doin'. Okay. Wonderful. Thing that I really support what you're doing looking at is the canes issue. Maybe one issue, humans is the story. Tell. So no when you look fantastic you wanna look at the difference between people who say. My boss is a terrible person because he did this or I can't get along with my co worker or they're making me you overtime for the next three weeks. Then has a senior focus. Will be that harmful people. Oh, one that's a great. I didn't realize that. It's when it becomes the whole kitchen sink. But you think so that one is the Ben king that make people into a person is very different. Eight company because they make any were for three weeks overtime. That's one instance versus I hate this company because they don't care. Talk about the difference. Those I think I know that difference. One is. Making about some of these pardon. Situation. One becomes global. Ori- suffocate. Got it. There's there's no way. So what we talk about just with this analogy because it's really simplistic for people to understand when you're tackled down into what we call a lower version of yourself. I can't change anything because I can't change everything. It just really takes away any place, you could have impact where if you can identify something specific than you can continue the work, even though that's not your preference. You can find a different job with different shifts. You can get some coverage for those or make adjustments at home like they're still places you can find a place of impact in the world rather than the whole world is kind of stacked against me is that the difference. You look yet the personal attribution of the fence. Impli relating to difficult situation versus how much of might pass our many of might shoes and my bringing into contaminate the personal situation and the more that is brought in the less useful than thing is. This wonderful distinction. I think I think when we're with someone we care about we concertedly almost like kind of on a cellular level feel the difference. You know, one feels like this could be a really cathartic moment and productive in the other. Just feels like, you know, this was just a a tantrum of some sort that we were kind of held hostage to be part of. I mean, I just I think about two different examples I've been into with a personal cure about. And there's just I think the can even as the listener the person who loves wants to be helpful. You can feel the differences. And we're forgiveness say, no, that's way, you framed all this. Forgiveness is incomes over really important issue is when the natural briefing of either has been extended or hasn't been done or has become Chris several give and I think that's what you probably in coke when you say, so. If you come into a work situation, and you're trying to teach him to be to get along better. Be more productive and twelve people. You know, have a little had twat about how bad something is. And they've been saying that same thing. Now for eight months that's been thing is not good at all. It's of no you stand buddy. What it is is like a mythic constipated brief. It's like, you're angry your frustration your owner ability. And then you're stuck. Yeah. We're if nece is the antidote all the stuff. Creeps. Forgiveness is the antidote for stuck grave. It's so wonderful. Four Greeks know. There are some people who are either wake so spiritually of or have practiced so much like the stoic. Who's whole purpose was to create a mental philosophy when they in advance could understand what life could offer. And so they understood that painful things happen. So they creek we've amid somewhere. But for the rest of us, gracious abo- preate, and it has some time considerations. Not nearly as long as people think, but forgiveness is the give necessity for win that processed get stuck and get stuck echoes the story that they're telling the comes an impediment. And you will see with the kind of thing that you're talking about. They have shared story of dysfunction. Exactly you've named. Yeah. The necessity of forgiveness. So they can literally forgiveness. His so you can move on past your own story. I like the definition civility move on past your own story. Really all forgiveness is it's like you went from. Terrible story to a better story the event never change. And in that the grief lace Byron, katie's were Kamei is invaluable. Yeah. Yeah. I love conscious through so much. It could probably cut off a Europe cycle. You know? It's an MP people. Don't forgive at the right time become both bitter because they can't cope with their own life. And they lose efficacy. I couldn't Gill with this last to be so afraid that will have been again, or I couldn't work it out with this co workers. Now, I have to be a little more cautious with everybody, we think his on from all the things that we continue to resilience in in happiness. You know, because he isolates just all of those things that that are they really helps me because I think I've found that work really useful from Katy at a time where I had been be on some of the things that happened in. So you know, it was good timing for me to move into a different immoral helpful story. But it's a reminder that in about that too. You know, like when something is visceral relate is traumatic. He can't prematurely move people beyond some of the somewhere conspiratorial, bypassing in what stoicism what special bypassing, I can attribute their work. I can remember I number such good work. All my gosh. I feel like we could talk for a long time. I felt like I got my private tutoring session, which I appreciate. To try to cackle what income shales is called like spiritual bypassing in others, all the things. But we we we asked people like you really know what happens if you looking at with grief or injury can be transcended. Do you really know what happened, you know, the facts, which is different than just your opinion of how terrible was that. You really know what happened? So have you done it some investigation of both leaf spirit, and it's cost. The wants to harm would have to have you explored the range of of ocean. If you're just angry got some sadness to deal with if you just said, you probably have some angered to get such if you're scared what you probably have some, you know, anger or courage to uncover, but you would lease because healthy reef people go through a range of motion and may come out the other side, actually, stronger people. So and the third thing is have you talked this out with a couple of people in not kicking yourself and you not sharing with the world. But have you been able to process this with a small number of people? You know, if you have an ongoing awful situation, we have found that we can say that people have done most of that. Then we can push them without much hesitation stopping the bad behavior, stocking vending stopping this stopping that. And we can more assertively pushed them to health. I love that the formula for give determining readiness. I mean, it's really readiness metric those three dimensions. That's nice. That's a that's a cool ad. I love that. Because. The I think back to some of the counseling, I didn't some of the grief. Fork? We did when we were working with hospice and stuff and that super useful to just help people in your saying readiness. What do you know for sure? And have you fully experienced it? And you know, is something you're speaking out loud to centrust, the people in some private ways and have. Make us like down to a sample thing because this can involve a whole degree of training. But let's say that one if your coworkers says something unkind. So that grief seques would be that you actually know what he had. Did you hear it? Did you just react to what was on? Can you articulate them? Did you feel a couple of Shen? Yes. I felt his yes, I hope scared because maybe my job is threat. And I was sad. Because I liked that person. Just the simplest things and three. Did you talk to somebody? Like, did you share your frustration? When those three things I've been accomplished wishing things like Byron, Katie or also to positive things there's much more receptivity much more the soil has entailed. And people feel better about of because. And they won. They they can be taught to be a little more mindful of their feeling. And two they could be at the impressionable value of social support not to self-rule. Yeah. In that that feeling heard in in supported in healthy ways. Oh, I cannot wait to continue to dig into more. I know my listeners are big readers. And so I've got a tell people there's some great stuff at the greater good science center and your back. The Berkeley is the center. Great good. Good stuff. And be able to look for anything about me the books that actuate unforgiveness and stress on the is you is like unju- view two videos on my work. It's not hard to hide exactly. But forgive for good was is that with his culture gift for good or forgive for good is one of the bucks. He had. No you've had even prolific. But what would you recommend people who wanna buy books? Do. Get him searching YouTube for you. Good. The biggest selling forgiveness book out there. We just I can tell you we figured out a way to make it a little simpler than it didn't before. Oh, I know in its stress-free for good. That was the what I call the happiness book so stress-free for good forgive. Forgive. Anyway, go thank you. So I know you have to run off to teach. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. We will let you know when this comes out we kinda use their phones instead of cancer, but we'll get it out there. And I would look forward to some additional conversation. I think you have so. We have. I I mean when you talk. Our first Byron, Katie. I mean, I've known a her work forever. I use some of and she clearly has figured out a way to get to the heart of this whole issue more directly than anybody that I had seen, but your discussion of the ego. Let me know that. You know what I'm saying? Like, just we have we share? And I was interested in what you talk about. Because I wasn't there for your you were there. I will connect you into some of my work. I'll send you some of my my box. So that's nerve wracking to give faculty member any writing. I have price them some post traumatic stress to work on. Conversation was forty amazing. Absolutely amazing. It was very helpful. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Oh, go ahead. What I would like I think I would be interested in learning more about what you when you to me of that the ego thing that triggered me like that's cool. So. I like that. I like that. Well, if you're up for them going to be back at Stanford over the next couple of months, and I can just send you a quick. No. If it works me, we can grab a Cup of coffee or something. What are you doing? So there's percent health care. There is I need to look at it here. One of the things I know for sure I'm looking at my calendar quickly. There is a March twenty fourth something for physicians retreat that there have been speak directly to the physicians inside was gonna come in just because it's beautiful area in live in Omaha. Nebraska was gonna come in and spend a few days in beautiful California by no that's one day. I think the others are kind of working through what to do belly. We're a lot with Google in end Anna plan in some of the other high-tech folks out there as well. So. A half hour to the next CoCo weep. And just like to know that I gotta go bye. Thank you. This is the no ego podcasts where we did the drama and entitlement in transform your role place. I'm signed Wakeman.
Jessica Riskin on Life, Machinery, and the Restless Clock
"Welcome to econ- talk part of the library of economics and liberty. I'm your host Russ Roberts of Stanford university's Hoover Institution. Our website is econ- talk dot org, or you can subscribe comment on this podcast and find links and other information related to today's conversation also find archives, we listened to every episode we've ever done going back to two thousand six or Email addresses mail. It he contact dot org. We'd love to hear for. Today is Monday January fourteenth twenty nineteen and before. Introducing today's guest on a thank everyone who voted in our survey for your favorite episodes of last year. It takes awhile to compile those, but we will some point communicate those via Twitter and via an episode later in this year, and we do have a category in our archives called favorites. You can see what people voted for in the past. What were some of the episodes in years past and one of the things I learned from the survey is that many of you do not realize that we have highlights every episode, which is almost a full transcript we have links to things related to this episode, including other econ, talk episodes and the writings of the author or the guest, and so encouraged everyone to check those out if they interest, you it all and now for today's guests she has a story in and author Jessica Riskin, she has Jean-Paul Jim on director of the France. Stanford center for interdisciplinary studies and a professor of history Stanford University her latest book and the subject of today's conversation is the restless clock a history of the centuries long debate about what makes living things tick, which was published in two thousand sixteen Jessica welcomed econ talk. Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be able to talk with you your books. A history of of the science of how we've thought about life and nature itself and science also and at the heart of the book is a tension between what you call brute mechanics and agency explain those two different issues and how they've played out history science without giving us the entire book. Which of course, about the books. Just give us a introduction to the idea behind those two concepts. Sure. Yeah. Well, I think that there has been a a kind of a struggle throughout the history of the modern life sciences between two. Models of living things, and according to both models living things are a kind of machinery in the sense that they're made out of material parts interacting with one another. But one of the two models considers them to be machines clock like machines that are essentially passive. They've been designed to function in a certain manner, and they design they function in exactly the way they were designed like a clock tick tick tick, and they're so there are essentially, passive, according to the competing model living things are active machines. They're their self making continually self transforming they have a kind of internal agency. And so, you know, those I think those two models of living things emerged round the seventeenth century and has been in a kind of interesting struggle with one another ever since then. And even today, I think you see elements of each in current science. So in the wrestles clock. I was interested in. Tracking that struggle in its on the surface. It seems kind of obvious that say a car is a machine, and I'm not and yet there are many car like machine like things in me. My blood pressure. My. I sweat when it's hot out there. Lot of things that are clearly not in any sense agency on my part. They happen without agency. They happen passively without any intention. And so there is a deep obviously philosophical question as to whether I can have any attention at all. Or is it all just the parts all just the chemistry? The adrenaline it. Sarah that makes me tick, and I'm under the Aleutian that I have agency. Well, also, the other thing about I should of specify that. When I use the word agency in the book, I use it sort of many many different levels. So maybe the highest level sort of agency would be conscious active will but going you can serve all the way down to very very rudimentary forms of agency by which living organisms respond to their environment. At least according to certain theories that are not acts of will say photo trope ISM of a plant. Or something like that. And Lamarque the the French naturalists Trump's he's Lamar who was the really the first person at the end of the eighteenth century beginning of the nineteenth century to develop a theory of what we would now call volition, he didn't use that word he, but but transformation of living forms Lamarque was the first develop a theory of that. And he identified kind of a spectrum of forms of agency going all the way down to very very rudimentary sensitivity and reactive nece to the environment. And then all the way up he says, he said that at the level of birds and mammals that was the level of complexity at which organisms could respond by acts of will to their environments and shape them selves through actual acts of will by forming habits in response to their environment. So there's certainly a spectrum of forms of living agency in the history of biology. Works having a bit of a comeback. We will get to that later. I think that's yeah. Fred ably interested. Yeah. But let's I'm gonna go back to the bench and photo Tropez. I soon that means that if you put a plant in on a table, it'll turn toward the sun and start growing toward the sun. Which is we would often in science will certainly do this. We certainly do this in economics. We would say the plant acts as if it seeks the sun. We don't think the plant is conscious. But we find it useful to use a metaphor of intention and agency to describe that activity that action that result. And and what's fascinating about to me about much of what you write about is that, you know, I think most scientists we don't really mean the plant wants to get to the sun. We're just it just a metaphor. And yet we struggled to keep those metaphors separate from the. Reality right. Yeah. I mentioned in the introduction to the book. It's funny. Actually, this is one of the passages. The people have responded to the most I mentioned a conversation that I had with a good friend of mine actually, one of my college roommates who's a biologist now. And I was talking with her about this. You know, she was saying that biologists in conversation in casual settings it all the time speak as though the organisms they study had agency were seeking things and striving for things, and and so forth and she said, but we would never publish in those terms. We would never, you know, this is sort of only okay for casual conversation. And I think that's sort of an interesting thing, you know, if you find a community of researchers who speak in one way and published in another way, it's sort of an interesting phenomenon. Why is that I'm interested? So that one way to describe what I was interested in the book is history of that situation. Why do biologists speak? In this way, casually, but they would never publish in that in those terms you, and I have a colleague at Stanford in the business goal, Paul flayed, or I don't know if you know Paul, but he wrote a very provocative peace, and we talked about it on any contact. And we'll linked to it where he talked about the as if assumption economics people act as if or the idea that we model things by stripping away a lot of reality and will soon that firms say or we often call them agents, actually, he can Amish. It's pretentious term to mean. People who decide things that make an live. But we'll talk about agents having a certain utility function or maxim, and and when pressed most economists don't literally mean that that's exactly what we're doing. But they act as if they're doing that. And it's useful. The problem is is that we then often wanna make welfare statements statements about wellbeing that predicated on those models actually describing reality not just trying to use. A model to predict what's going to happen. And those are two very different things. And we're flavor points out is is a communist, we typically confuse those because of our habits of talking about them as if they're the same and they're not at all. And it's really dangerous. Right. Yeah. I mean, of course, any model this is sort of basic point in the philosophy of science that any model is going to reduce and simplify if it didn't do that. It would be worthless than you might as well look at the world itself rather than at your model of the world. If if the model doesn't reduce simplify in any way, but as you say for one thing, it's important to keep in mind, the dimensions in which you're reducing and simplifying. And also, I think it's a question of what people are trying to achieve with this particular form of of reduction or simplification so to come back to to give an example from from from the book, I think the the classical path of mechanised or brute mechanised model of of consider. Living things to be like clocks or other sorts of machines that have been designed in a certain way and function in that way for all eternity. The purpose of that model that model came out of is one of the things I've been most interested in the book that model came out of theological tradition. The argument from design in which people beginning around the middle of the seventeenth century began to especially English Englishman like for example, Robert Boyle, but it's a fundamentally Protestant theological tradition. The argument from design people began to look for lots of evidence of rational design in nature as evidence of of the rational designer of rational God. And so, you know, people got very very interested in studying physiological, fitness the perfect suitablity of, you know, the eye of bird to the task it has to perform versus the eye of fish, which needs to do a different task in a different environment. Those. Those questions of physiological, fitness. I got a lot of attention in the context of the argument from design, of course, the argument from nine assumes that agency is external is outsourced to the designer and not internal to the designed creature. And that's a fascinating. It's a paradox sword Surra, we stay a confusion, even for I think some people because on the surface, the movement towards seeing nature as mechanical as an I think of that as you didn't talk about this much, but I think of it as a as a series of causes and affects a series of a chain of of responses to stimuli. That's the essence of science. It's that you're not going to use invoke divine mover and simply for human beings. You're not going to you're not going to invoke a soul to. Describe what gives human being's life. That's the essence of science has to rule out those logical arguments. And yet I want you to say it, again, your argument that that at the beginning of science, at least the more mechanical people viewed nature, the more they were essentially invoking a divine origin, right? That's right. I think there's a kind of supreme irony actually in this. I mean, the the founding of the modern sciences in around the sixteenth seventeenth century. One of the kind of main features of that moment in the history of natural science was the ruling out of what what these new philosophers people like Newton boil. Took to be mystical. No longer will we appeal to mystical tendencies and souls and things like that miracle magic exactly from now on so final causes in the interest. Italian terms are to be ruled out purposes tendencies inclinations, and so forth from now on we're simply going to talk about matter in motion material causes, and so, you know, the origin of this kind of passive clockwork model of of the cosmos really takes place in the seventeenth century moment in which people are trying to rule out these kind of an inexplicable tendencies and proclivities that day saw as having been everywhere scholastic medieval science, but there is an irony to this which is that they sort of outsourced. All of that agency to an external designer so in a sense, you have this purely material artifact world this very beautiful very complex very perfect and rationally designed artifact world that's all made out of just moving parts. And so the advantage of that is that it's intelligible Descartes is another example of someone who you know, he was one of the first to describe this beautiful rational artifact world and to extend it even to living things to say everything is just machines, and we can understand therefore what's wonderful about that. Is that we can understand it all it's all intelligible to reason if we apply human reason to this world, we will understand it entirely. But then there's this irony sort of a company ING feature which is that agency, and sort of the the original cause of all of this is external is supernatural. It's out there in the hands of supernatural God. So there's a kind of SuperNet. Truism that goes along with it. And yet in today's world, I think many scientists who who do not believe in God. What are you don't need a first move or just kind of it it just happens? And it just so happens that world that happens has caused an effect laws things that we can inquire about an uncover end, we do, and that's nothing to do with intention or design on the part of of divine origin is just the way it is. Yeah. I mean, here's another. We we've come to another kind of basic principle in the philosophy of science, which is that any explanation has to start somewhere. You have to start somewhere. You have to have some primitives some some beginning point. And so for somebody like Descartes that the beginning point was matter and motion. You assume the existence of matter in motion, and then you explain everything in those terms, and I suppose res human reason somebody like the German philosopher live. Knits. He really objected to the kind of major theories that he saw merging around him to cartesian into Newtonian. He said, basically. Matter and motion explained nothing without without force without energy, modes of action, how what puts all of this in motion, you need to have some source of of movement and energy and force. And so he made that his primitive. And so so I guess it's a question of what you're willing to assume. And what you really want to be able to explain in terms of those things that you've decided you're willing to assume. I think for modern scientists they're very busy. That's a word is that a word that is a word. I think at least I hope so 'cause I use it. So they're very Leibnitz heating that that I caused is the big bang and once that's set into motion. We don't have theories to how that happened or why it happened? And if you're a religious believer you'd say could've come from God. But if you're not a religious believer to say, well, they don't I I think increasingly scientists don't say, well, we just don't know they say, actually, we don't I don't even need to have a that. I cause any anymore. But I think most people most human being very uncomfortable with that. And they they like the idea, but if it's a mystery to the source of it that like the idea I 'cause. Yeah. Well, also, I think you need a lot of I causes scientific explanations. Because the big bang, for example is a useful. I 'cause may be in cosmology astronomy, but they're plenty of areas of science where. Probably doesn't get you very much explanatory power. And you need other I causes there. So. Yeah. So I think it's sort of an interesting philosophical problem throughout the sciences Freni given area or field, which of the things that I'm willing to assume, and which are the things that I need to be able to explain, but those are always going to go only as far as the level of a sumptiousness right again you have to start. It's interesting. My daughter is a junior in high school, and she's taking a biology this year, and one of the things we found hardest when she started the AP bio curriculum was that it seemed to her that some of the questions he was asking class. She was toll the teacher would say, you know, you just have to assume that if you go to grad school and biology, maybe you'll be able to learn about that. But for Nelson and other things the teacher would give her a very worked out nation that she's would then need to really understand and learn and so she was saying to me and she said to her teacher. I don't understand what's the difference between those questions that I have to just assume and those. Where I really need to be able to explain it thoroughly. And I think that that's a problem not just for high school juniors in AP bio but throughout the sciences. Oh, I think it's been pro-life. It goes way beyond AP bio for sure when I used to be in the classroom teaching economics. I I love to ask questions that didn't have clean answers puzzles, and to answer this puzzles to make any progress have to make some assumptions, and my students at first they want to know, what are the right assumptions, and that's the hardest part knowing what to ignore in. What to focus on is is a huge part of the scientific enterprise, it even the social scientific prize that it's not really science. It's a craft. It's an art at least an economics. I want I want you to talk about the metaphor of the Russel's clock because it it haunts me after reading your book, and I want you to contrast it with the machine eventually briefly. But when you go into a little more depth, the origin of that phrase, and it's contrast with the machinery in the brick machinery mechanism onnell in. Basically at the mercy of of my chemistry forces beyond the control of the the living organism itself. Which how's that restless clockwork? Okay. So thank you for asking. That actually I was the restless clock. I struggled to come up with a title for the book. And when I arrived at this. I thought oh, that's just that. That'll really capsule at the argument it actually the phrase. The restless clock comes from a passage by a live knits who have just mentioning a few moments ago in which he says, he's he's writing in his new essays which were written in French, actually, even though he was German. He was writing in French. And so he says in German the name for the balance arm of clock is own HOA, which he translates as in French and key or restless. And any says I like that name for the balance of clock because if you think about it clocks are always having to respond adjust to to their environment. They're always having to make up for a little variations and things taking place around them. And it's the same way I'm certainly paraphrasing here, but it's the same way he says in in living bodies were constantly having to respond adjust to our surroundings. We can never just become and quiet. We have to be always in a constant state of restless responsiveness, and what struck me about that passage that this was a period in which pretty much everybody. Everybody. Everybody was making that analogy between living organisms different natural phenomena. But including living organisms on the one hand and clockwork on the other hand, but they meant very different things by it. So another, you know, someone else like, well, I'm going forward. Time a bit. But someone like William paley who made that same ineligible analogy meant that living things are passive mechanical devices that that that have been designed by some external designer live knits meant that their dynamic responsive self adjusting self self moving so he meant something very different by it. And so that's why I chose it as as as my title because I wanted to point out this kind of less, I think less visible, but equally important tradition in the history of the life sciences, which is the restless clockwork model as opposed to the passive clockwork model. I wanna stay with it for a minute. But I want to. Digress. For second about economics in economics. We have the model of a market in equillibrium, we teach to our students when I teach 'economics it's at the heart of what I teach often as a way of analyzing the impact of say a policy intervention or changing something that's affecting the market. Participants knew the supply or demand size might be looking at a change in tastes or taxes or subsidies or price controls or and so on changes in the so-called rules of the game. And we then in economics will we perturb the system, and then we watch come back into Librium. But when pressed certainly a good economist says, well, of course, that's just a metaphor markets. I they're not real doesn't such thing. We're not talking about a farmers market. We're talking about say the thing that determines the price of shirts. Made out of hundred percent cotton that are say Iran free in the United States right now. That's what we mean by the market for sure. It's and there isn't one. It's just a conceptual idea to help me wrap my brain around a really complicated set of interactions between buyers and sellers, and I don't really believe it's inequilibrium because the price of cotton constantly changing. And there's all kinds of things affecting the labour market for workers in the continent. Destroy the fashion markets changing every second. And so it's a metaphor. It's it's really a restless, it's a super Kasit, doesn't it doesn't necessarily stay on time at all. And we wouldn't really expect it to and good economy admits that but we use that metaphor because it's helpful right, right? Yeah. It's interesting. Actually, I think well to serve pursue the connection between living systems and economic systems that it seems to me that the modern theories of each of those have a common origin that is very much related to the subject of my book that is sort of a. Darwin classical evolutionary classical Darwinian evolutionary theory and classical liberal economic theory, come from a the same intellectual moment, and indeed very much influenced one another certainly, you know, Darwin had in mind kind of invisible hand struggle competition struggle for survival when he was developing his idea of of natural selection, and I think, but but reciprocally I think the authors of classical liberal economic theory had in mice Adam Smith certainly had in mind, the the late seventeenth eighteenth century natural sciences as a model for how social science social explanations should be you know, social explanation should be as much as possible like natural scientific explanation. So there's a real convergence in that moment and spent did not mean the head use calculus, but his offspring certainly think that that's the way to understand it. Don't agree. But it's a common thing to to model. Economic says something like physics. I do think. I think I learned this. I know this from burnin Smith Nobel laureate. An econ talk episode with Jim Edison, when we're talking about Adam Smith that Smith was alive when Newton was alive. The K was three or maybe five at the most. I didn't even intellectual conversation. But clearly Newton was interested in the harmony of the heavens. I think I think was deeply interested in harmony of our interactions with each other how they worked together and interacted together. And he didn't he wasn't looking for a, you know, an equation of gravity, but he had something similar in the back of his mind. They'll absolutely that's right. I think that the the intellectual world that Smith was operating in one that had been extremely shaped by Newtonian physics, and the kind of the the kind of natural science that got established at the end of the seventeenth century with Newton's Principia and other contemporary works at another thing that's inch. Is it seems to me that both just going back to Smith and Darwin that both of them were much more sort of causal pluralist than their followers. So, you know, they're so Darwin was interested. So there's a kind of very reduced form of of Darwinism Darwin himself did not advance that reduces everything just to obtain natural selection at up to every single trait is the result of natural selection directly, and therefore is adaptive in some way, and the same thing, I think with with with economic theory after Smith the idea that really competitions the only the only thing, and I think in each case Darwin was interested in kind of multiplicity of causes and Smith was also interested in more of a multiplicity of forces at work in the economy. So there there's a kind of simplification that happens in the. Wake of each of those two great point, and they're both incredibly rich thinkers that if you haven't read them in the original, you've missed something, you may not learn a lot about Facebook and social media say reading, I would as I've written to you. There is something to be learned about social media. But just an example is obviously there are many things that are outdated and Smith and similarly in Darwin, and yet the you get to see their minds at work in such a rich and non reductionist way in that. That is you say led to some really reductions theories down the road, but they were not reduction themselves at all I think that's right. Yeah. So you write a beautiful thing about going back. The restless for you say to say that human being works like a machine whether one accepts or rejects the idea sounds like science, but it sounds less like science when when describes the machinery as restless. Moved by its own inner agency. And the reason I end of quote, I love that is. I do think we've talked recently in the program about how whether three well or not most of his babe. If there is we find that to be helpful baby on allusion, but it certainly is health away to live. But I think that idea sing ourselves as restless clocks that that. There's a huge piece of our lives that we have no control over treat your are part of our being, but that somehow we have some agency, and we do interact with their environment in complicated ways. And I'm gonna give you an example in second. But first I want to distract to that. Yeah. I mean, one thing I'm interested in with this book is what does or doesn't sound like science is is a matter of history. You know? Something sounds like science because because the science has has developed in a certain way. And so I guess I was sort of trying to suggest with that passage. I think it's toward the end of the book that one could imagine this this kind of parallel historical development in which the description of restless clockwork sounds perfectly scientific, and there are there are I think there's a kind of political history of science almost you know, it as I've said it had to do with the relations between actually science and theology. So the idea that agency and purpose, and meaning and those questions those questions belong in the realm of theology and science is meant to just address questions of sort of proximate mechanism. This piece pushing up against that peace and to describe it and essentially passive world to which the allegience will then supply the meaning and the purpose and the agency. And so it's for that reason, I think that tha. Today, one of those sentences kind of passive clockwork classical Magnus model sound scientific and the active mechanised model sounds less. So so, yeah, that's what I was getting out with that. And in fact, William paley had mentioned him earlier. He he was the author of the watch on the heath. I think probably many people have heard this kind of little story that paley told if you're walking across a heath and you're struck against a field and your foot struck against stone. You could reasonably say to yourself. Well, maybe that's don't just happen to be there. It's always been there. But if you're struck against a a watch, then you'd have to imagine that there must be a watchmaker somewhere. And so, you know, this is analogous. He wants you to then apply that to the natural world says a watch implies a watch the rational design of nature implies a rational God. And darwin. Recalled that he as a student at Cambridge University had had had to memorize a lot of paly a lot of pails writings, and he quite admired, actually, Palley you can even hear the kind of resonance in Darwin's writing of some of these rhythms and way of phrasing things and Darwin basically said I'm I'm doing paly, but I just taking out the God parts. So a, and that's an interesting thing to think about can you if you if you adopt that model of living things as passive clockwork mechanisms can you then just take out the God part, or isn't it implicit in that model and don't you need a kind of different model of of living mechanism? So so why does that matter? I mean, why why for a modern scientist today who's not interested in God or for sure who's usually mocked by most modernise moderns? Why is that relevant? Why should I care about this old historical problem that you're talking about this tension? This issue of just doing my science, leave me alone worry about this. Right. Good question. Well, I think because I think faxing scientists if they don't know so much about the history of their science, then they don't fully understand the stakes of their of their own convictions. So if you have a conviction that scrubbing agency to an evolving organism is unsigned Tiffin. But you don't realize that that emerged from this older, theological division of labor. Then I think you haven't fully understood the stakes of your own what you take to be axiomatic today in the twenty first century. Darwin. Darwin himself was tremendously torn between the paley model of clockwork, passive clockwork, and the Lamarque model of living things is self making self transforming machines. That's hello. Mark saw things Lamarque, of course, was in very bad odor in. In the nineteen of well has been I think he continues to be an many circles and very bad odor. But initially at the end of the eighteenth and going into the nineteenth century Lamarque was associated with the French revolution with materialism with regicide with with Jakobsen ISM, radical politics. And so, you know, Darwin sort of struggled to reconcile these two competing models and with all of this politics surrounding them. And if you don't know about that history, then you as a practicing biologist today, and you know, twenty nineteen you don't fully understand why Lamarque in sounds to you like bad science. And it would also discourage you from being opened at the idea genetics at that some traits can be passed on which increasingly smaller is not important large ones necessarily. But that it is possible at all is absolutely stunning. Given the way people were believing for the last few hundred years, and it's miss that. You'd be biased against it. Exactly. And end. In fact, I think you mentioned earlier that lamarcus them is having a sort of comeback today. And maybe I should specify think. That's right. And and what what I mean by lamarcus them is it isn't it isn't that by stretching for the fruit that your f- gets a longer passes it onto their children, which is those sort of parody that. But that's the way we're all taught now like, oh that was the wrong idea because that doesn't happen, right? I remember learning that in high school vilocci as an example of total wrongheadedness the draft stretching its neck, but by Lamar by by lamarcus lamarcus him market biology. What I mean is the first of all the idea that an organism can change in. The course of its lifetime in ways that can be heritable. And as you say EPA genetics is one area one current sort of very hot area of biological research in which people are finding that organisms can transform in ways that are not within the genome, but, but you know, outside the the genes there's a lot there's a lot of things there's the cell. There's the body there's the environment, and and so an organism can transform in. The course of its lifetime in heritable ways. And I think biologists are currently interested in studying that I've gotten actually sort of. Connected with a group of biologists through my colleague at Stanford. Mark Feldman and his sort of I guess collaborator. Kevin Leyland who's at the university of Saint Andrews. And they've invited me to a couple of conferences. It's been really fascinating. So they are at work on something. They call the extent of luminaries, synthesis, which is trying to build back into blue Baldi all those areas outside the genes that that the kind of Neo Darwin darwinist tradition had left out so from from the from the larger sell to the body to the environment to even they're interested in the culture of an of animals and animal behavior, and that's been really fascinating for me to be a part of those conversations. So I wanted to a different lesson from your book, which I don't understand too long book. Get a lot of talk about there's a whole bunch of. Very indepth intellectual history that that that you explore there. And so you don't have obviously rumor time for everything. But one of the things that struck me as I read it was was the following. It's addition it's come up on the program before. If you read these brilliant people to cart, cont Darwin Lamarque, and in a few dozen other of their colleagues that you write about in some detail, amazingly, aired ibook one thing that strikes you at least it struck, man. Love your reaction is that they just had no idea. They were really smart, and they had of course, limited knowledge of all kinds of things genetics being one obvious example for the list that I just gave you, but they limited knowledge, and so their idea of say how're human beings different than animals. They had all kinds of wacky ideas that were that we look at now and laugh about but it strikes me. We haven't made that much progress on a lot of these issues in the second thing that strikes me unite talked about this before we came on the air is that a lot of times, we latch onto a metaphor like a clock because it's the most advanced thing, we can possibly think of so that was true in say seventeen fifty and at that point than the later became say the steam engine or the combustion engine became a better metaphor. And now, it's the computer. So we say, well, you know, venture will understand that maybe the whole universe is a computer. It's all simulated some really where people believe this or at least consider it or speculate about it. That the entire universe is a computer simulation? It's like really if you read intellectual history, which is what your book is you realize that we're just really in the dark a lot of the time. Now doesn't mean don't be a moment where we're the sunlight may we'll have quote, finally figured this out whatever this is. But it strikes me that humility is one of the lessons, you might gather from some of these questions in our temps dance room. Yeah. It's interesting. I think in the history of an example is in the history of artificial intelligence. Well, let me back up for moment and say that I think both things are are true on the one hand sciences make tremendous extrordinary progress and on the other hand, it seems like certain problem core problems don't get any closer to being solved even wall that tremendous extraordinary progress is happening. And so an example of this is in the history of artificial intelligence, I think many artificial intelligence researchers have have talked about this problem of a kind of moving of the goalposts. So each time it becomes possible for a computer to do something that seemed like. Could never do that. Now, there's a kid. So you know, certainly a computer could never play chess. Well, then there were computers that could play chess. And so people said, okay. Well, that's not really the key thing to be able to play go now their computers that can play go. So each time. Right. And so each time this, and it seems like I do think that we don't we have certainly not through artificial intelligence in my view gotten any closer to the essence of what sentient. What sentient cognition even even animals is like, let alone of human beings. Maybe people that might be a controversial statement. I mean, I think people like, maybe Steven pinker. Would disagree with that would say, well, we know that it's just a lot of sub routines. And we'd maybe we don't know quite the details. But but to my mind, I don't I'm not persuaded by that kind of argument. It seems to me that. It's quite extraordinary. The number of things that computers can do. And at the same time. Quite extraordinary. How it seems to me that hasn't gotten us any closer to the essence of sentient, cognition agree. One of the words. I don't think I read in her book is it's probably in there. But I didn't notice it is instinct. I want to ask I wanna give you a story Anna let you react to it. So I'm looking at my window. On a Tuesday morning, and I see my bird feeder. And there's a cardinal my bird. Feeder it's really a gorgeous beautiful dangerous thing to be a cardinal because it's really visible male cardinal is bright bright red, and it's really nervous at my failure. And I it at least appears to be nervous. I can't have any way of knowing it seems to give off the air of unease restless actually would be a good word very restless at the feeder. And it can't stay there for long at immediately flits to a nearby tree. And then it comes back, and it comes back to the feeder thinking to wanna do that. Or is that just instinct, then I think about myself feel like procrastinating and get up and some skin have one handful of peanuts out of that Xiuyin Kirkland Cusco brand Virginia peanuts, really good. And I take the him go back and sit down I read what I'm reading or work on what I'm working. And then just one more now is is there any difference to me that bird is there is there will in that intention is the is the bird just responding to in-state. I don't we ever gonna answer that question. I guess we could esus question about me. Yeah. I mean, I think there have been, you know, competing approaches to that kind of question so behavior psychology six is about kind of describing animal and human behaviors from the outside and never ascribing any internal subjectivity to it. So then the the the behaviorist Santer to that question would be you can just sort of describe what the bird does. And don't assume any subjectivity on the part of the bird any any attitude or or or feeling just describe what it does? And assume that it does that because of its mecca how it's constructed it's constructed to behave in those ways. But it seems to me like those are questions of principle more than science. You know, do do adopt or Cybernetics is another example, I think that cybernetic movement of the mid twentieth century. Sherie which was which in which people like Norbert wiener at MIT tried to understand animal behaviors and computing and human intelligence, this kind of constellation of things on the same model all on the same model, and it was sort of axiomatic to them that you you describe it from outside in you don't make a sumptuous about what's going on on the inside of the subject hood of the of the organism. So, but it seems to me that those are questions of principle more than or methodology or approach. They're not questions that you can you have to sort of adopt a stance. I don't know how you would ever answer that question through through the science. Rather you adopt a stance in kind of framing your experiment, framing your science, you decide while I will either assume subjectivity or not that's a tough one though. Right. I mean, it's yeah. I presume. That the cardinal does not when at the bird feeder have a flashback to a memory as a younger cardinal in the time that it was the seeds were better than the lousy. Once I put out this year. Unlike myself who might reminisce about some peanuts headed a baseball game with my dad when I was a little boy and have a nostalgic moment. But I don't know. Maybe cardinals have nostalgia. We can't it seems we can't know right now. Well, at also, it's interesting that Lamarque mentioned said at the level of birds and mammals these higher forms of responsiveness come in. So because I was just you know, my dog certainly has memories of things she's done in different places, even even long after the fact, and when we go back to that place, she you can see her remembering oh, there was a nice mud puddle here. Last time. I'm gonna go see if it's the hair, can, you know? And so, and I think at least according to Lamarque organisms up to the level of birds and mammals can have very. Est forms of sort of uncombed, unconscious responsiveness but from birds and mammals they they can respond deliberately and through acts of will. Talk about emergence, which is one of my favorite things economics, neglected to my in my view. And I get the impression you think it's been neglected in in science as well. Even though it's incredibly hot right now is overall concept what is its importance in thinking about sentence and thinking about the life nece vitality of things. Well, gosh, I'm not sure exactly how to answer that. I mean, it seems to me like emergences away of naming the problem of kind of Gulf between, you know, if you give a as my new description as you can of living thing, there's a kind of Gulf between that minute description, and the result, the kind of whole whole result of living sentient acting responding being and so emergency away of kind of naming that gap. You know, something happens in between the low level, and the higher level the low level causes and the higher level results. Something happens. But it seems to me that often it's it's a kind of it's kind of hand waving. We don't really know what happens. So we have to assume that something mysterious happens in there, and that gap. I think in science, at least the way you've used it here. Emergences the idea that the sums great the whole is greater than some of the parts right in any en economics in other aspects of science. Yes, that's part of it. But it's also the idea that. That doesn't seem to cover. It just seems to me that's not the in particular economics idea that say a market might I'm gonna lapse into my anthropomorphic sation of non animate thing markets, they often to try to solve problems, and my favorite example is one of them is that when when hundreds of millions of Chinese leave the countryside and move to the cities and they start saying their kids to school and their kids. Start using pencils? Sanal of a sudden the world needs a lot more pencils? And there's no pencils. Are there's nobody sitting around thinking she how we're gonna what are we gonna do and had somehow the market raises the price of cedar people startling for substitutes for pencils. They use more pens. They do the things that the u cedar for they might use cedar less for those things find substitutes. So the cedar can go to the pencils. And so I show up at Staples today. I say like a dozen pencils. And they don't say are you crazy? The Chinese got all the pencils this year. Come back in twenty twenty. That's a miracle. Something you know, some kind not a divine miracle. It's a it's an amazing marvel is what Hayek called it. And. It's looks like the market tried to solve that problem. And did right. That's what there's a there's an orderliness to emergence in some areas. That's more than just it. Looks orderly. It seems to be purpose of. That's why phrase it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, here's a way. Okay. I was thinking as you were speaking you asked whether I think that emergence has been overlooked in the life sciences, and I think maybe one way in which I think it has been overlooked is that there's this. Well, I was talking earlier about a kind of reductive tendency in Neo Darwinism and a lot of twentieth century of luminary biology into the twenty first century a kind of insistence on there being only one kind of causal factor. Only one kind of causal explanation, which is natural selection acting at the level of jeans, and in a sense. Why should that be the case the world is messy and complicated and full of different levels of things competing and acting in different ways. Kind of Stu of lots of kinds of forces. Why should it all reduce to just the one basic level of causation? And I think, you know, recent research in biology that I was mentioning EPA genetics. And these people who are interested in the extended synthesis are are trying to bring back some of those layers of of messing and complexity, and I would say the same thing must be the case. I don't now I'm on shaky ground because I don't know a lot about economics. But it seems to me like the same thing must be the case in social systems like like that there's a kind of mess of different factors. And so if you try to explain it just on the kind of one level, you're going to be missing a lot of complexity, and so I think when people talk about emergency, it may be partly also about trying to recover all those layers of complexity that get filtered out in the in the most reductive versions of these sciences. It's a really great example. I think a lot of people like. Say it's cute. They like to say that Adam Spence was the first behavioral economists because I m Smith understood that we deceive ourselves replied imperfect and modern economics for roughly the last seventy years has been about mathematical models that make absurd demands on what people are capable of of deciding and if for mation taking into account what formation, and you know, again becomes defend that by saying, it's just a simplification. It's not literally what people do, and it's a very I don't want ever suggest. That's that's a mistake. It's it's obviously a good idea. I don't think I use the example lot of football players. I don't think they when they when they're on the field. They say themselves. Well, I'm wearing a helmet. I can I can throw myself at sixty miles an hour into someone elses home at and yet if the plate without how much so take they play differently. And so there's obviously parts of our. That are not calculated but still can be treated as if they are calculated Milton Friedman like to say that the truck driver takes turn on a rainy night as if he knows the physics of the friction of the road the tires, and he's onto something there. That's definitely true, which I think you have to be you have to be somewhat careful in how you push that. And so today people say, yeah. So all those standard bottles of rational decision makers are obviously wrong people are full of laws. Chris if you're not careful than just don't have any anything say about anything just say, well, people are stupid, they mistakes time, and it's up your hands. So it's it's a very tough thing. It is. I think that also the disobey the various disciplines are different in this regard. So historians, I think our people by in large who are drawn to complexity and messy nece. That's not certainly there have been reductive schools of historic scholarships. Certainly there have still. Yeah. But but still I think you know, we we are interested in kind of story. Retelling? And so there's that that requires a certain kind of multiplicity of forces and factors and characters and impulses. And so you know, just seems to me like as a discipline. It tends toward complexity maybe more than some of the social sciences sciences. So maybe this is something that historians have to offer the academic world or the scholarly world is kind of re reintroduction of of complexity and messing make this climate. I don't think I'm alone. You would makes two of us. If if I said to you, what was the cause of the civil war, or what was the cause of the founding of the United States? No good story in whatever pretend there was one. They would be silly. Then we even sillier d- said, okay. He gave me four or five causes. Give me some percentages on each one. You know, what percentage of it was dude economics? What percent which do to culture? What percent, and I've had people do that with to me with the financial crisis. Okay. There's a lot of different things can't just beat the truth. Which is it's really messy in every event might be somewhat unique good English that that that every example, everyday point is there's only every sample as one data point certain dimension in history. And yet there are six that are in common. So we try to you know, we understand that. But but I think if it condoms acted more like a stories, we'd be Maradas. Nobody. His example for about to say invade Iraq of years back. Would you call them this story and say we'll tell me what's going to happen. But yet we do a tax cut or we do a trade war with China and kind suspected to tell what's going to happen. That's weird. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think actually a story is a good form of explanation. So, you know, if you ask a question like what caused civil war or some of the examples that you just gave the best form of explanation in response to that is a whole story. Yeah. Yeah. What are things? I got from your book, which found amusing. And like you to to talk about it is the the internati nature of of science and discovery, and particularly the Darwinian story where you give people details about Darwin's doubts and fears and most people don't either they don't know about him or they don't wanna think about them 'cause it's true Mooney talking about and so one of the things I found maybe I'm being unfair to the scientists. But I felt at times they were like religious believers who were afraid that something would refute their model their story. The way a religious person might worry that miracle could be explained by Daryl explanation that there's some you know, some counter evidence out there. It's like a fhu able to explain it in a way, you know, you're supposed to go. Wow. Maybe the world's richer that maybe I need to revise my theory. But we're human beings. And we struggled to do that. It seems to be right. Yeah. I I've really especially loved writing the parts of the book about Darwin because his well first of all he was such an extraordinary writer such beautiful pros later of English prose both in his published writings and in his letters. And and he also he had these voluminous correspondence with friends, and and and and colleagues all over the place, and he those letters. I mean, he really lays it all out there. You know, what he's worried about, you know, his anguish over the wet weather. The I for example, the favorite example of people. Making arguments from design in the nineteen th through much of the nineteenth century was the I the the I seems to be so perfect and so much like lens instrument like in artificial ends instrument. Darwin wrote to as grey at Harvard that he that he lose sleep over this. You know, maybe it is maybe it is kind of refutable argument for design, but then he sort of pulled himself together and realized how could give an explanation of the I so in any way what I mean to say is that you you see all of his worries and all of his agonizing and Embiid violence about it in particular. I think Darwin was torn between as I said earlier, I think these two different models the clockwork model that he got from paley, the passive clockwork model the watch on the heath, and this rather more mysterious, but but also a think on some level essential that model that he got from Lamarque of living things as fully material. But in a continual process of self creation self transformation, and that's what gave him. I mean. So if you if you think about his theory as being composed of the idea of sort of. Main ingredients the idea of fitness or out of tation he gets that from paly, partly and then the idea of transformation of living forms over time. He gets from Lamarque, and he has to somehow make them fit together, and he really struggled and suffered over this. I think he was also his own grandfather aroused Darwin had come up with a an idea of transformation of living forms around the turn of the eighteenth and nineteenth century and had expressed it in very very romantic actually, literally as as poetry in the footnotes to to to to pull it long poems. And and if he was romantic writer, and I think Darwin was both very influenced by his grandfather's work and also kind of embarrassed wanted to somehow kind of. Set himself apart from that romantic vision at the same time as as a historian of science at Chicago, Bob Richards, has written Darwin was very drawn to magic writing German, romantic right, and he loved the German romantic Alexander von Humboldt and carried his work around in his pockets to read it out to friends and stuff like that. So he was drawn to these things and also worried. Well, it's fascinating that you that you mention that he's trying to square the circle or or combine these two ideas idea of of at a patient or fitness because so much of the natural seems as if it has a purpose or looks the features of it looked purposeful with the what was the second part the. The transformation of liberal forms over time right in. So the Arnie is is that I think Adam Smith helped him a lot think about that. And the irony is not that I spent did Arnie's is that and mouths and economic right? But they were living at a time when economic progress transformation was so miniscule compared to what was coming. But it was already started. So they could write about it. They could write about change. Right. If you were writing economics in in the arrayed hundred you're you're not much going on, you know, I forget who maybe Robert Lucas observed. I in my experience that they're most human history. There's no progress. It's just the same ox? Poland plow, and and the level of standard of living is going to be pretty much constant. And then suddenly something starts happening and Smith writing in seventeen seventy six with wealth today, shins or. Have been seventy and fifty nine with their immoral sentiments there at the just the beginning. So the beginnings of the industrial revolution. When the possibility of transformation through the divisional labor that he was so interested in could happen combined with competition. And so presumably Darwin shot was helped by that a lot that that helped him see the how competition molded app tation led to change. Yeah. No. I think you're absolutely right. I think actually from Smith from where he sat you know in the seventeen sixty seventies fifty sixty seventies. It it. It didn't feel miniscule or slow at all felt that you know, you you see the industrial revolution. Just booming all around when you read his his pros, you see it all filtering into there. You can almost see out his windows at what's happening all around him. Absolutely. And I think you're right that that that pace of transformation of the world Darwin. Also, actually another thing, maybe. Kind of related to this is that there was a kind of agriculture revolution in Britain in the early part of the nineteenth century and Darwin was seeing he he joined pigeon fancying clubs and he studied animal breeding, and he got a a lot of material from artificial selection from breeding as kind of evidence for him for the tower of selection. So he was responding to economic and social developments around him -absolutely. You know, what I was trying to get at just realize it that if he'd been able to read Schumpeter, creative creative destruction he would have made a lot it would be easier for because that that's when of course, he was probably reacting to Darwin also because he came he between pater and Smith. But that idea economics that things are constantly arising and through the voice of competition either surviving and knocking off existing firms. Existing in technologies is is very of Darwinian. Right, right. I mean, I think it's it's hard not to read history backwards because it does seem as though people the earlier people are tipping the later people. But in fact, it's probably the other way around the later people are building on the, you know, the later understandings are building on the earlier ones. But absolutely that's all part of one. I think intellectual tradition that you're describing Hewitt close with Schrodinger. Now, if you'd asked me, I only knew one thing about Schrodinger is cat go into Schroeder's cat. But. Linkup disorders cat for the interested readers listeners who want to read about it. But you talk about the import toward the end of the book of an essay the Trojan her road called what is life and I liked that title because it's an ambitious title. It it it does have a question, Mark. I think at the end of it because it's a question that that I take it many ways. Hunch your entire book. So you close by talking about what Schroeder had to say about it. And who was a physicist not a biologist? And why it's interesting and important. Yeah. I think that's an absolutely extraordinary essay voting. What is life becau-? Well, apparently, I think many biologists consider it to be have been kind of the kind of founding whatever manifesto of molecular biology, and he sort of Tippett's DNA. He describes he you know, he describes it. But what what what was fascinating to me about. It is that he once again return. To the clockwork model, but it's a restless clockwork model. You know, he says basically that the kind of clockwork that would be at the at the core of that could expect could answer the question. What is life is a kind of restless responsive clockwork that could conceivably begin to move all on its own. He has this passage in which he describes he says spring clock might suddenly begin to move at the expense of the heat energy of its own cog wheel and of the environment. The physicist would have to say the clock experiences. An exceptionally intense fit of brownie and movement. So he's sort of groping for. For language to describe living things as machines. But restless unpredictable self transforming one's self moving ones. And so I found it fascinating. When I discovered that those passages in that say sort of long after live knits, but coming back to the same kind of imagery. My guest today has been Jessica risking her book as the Russel's clock. Jessica thanks for being part of econ to well. Thank you very much. It's been wonderful. Thank you. This is econ- talk part of the library of economics and liberty for Maury contact econ talk dot org where you can also comment on today's podcast and find links and readings related today's conversation. Sound engineer? Recon talk is rich yet. I'm your host Russ Roberts. Thanks for listening to talk to you on Monday.
Confirmation Hearings for Amy Coney Barrett Underway
"This election absolute is reminding every American to prioritize voting over everything else. Yes. Even drinking alcohol. So whatever you do vote I drink second remember your vote has the power to shake or stir the election make count. Absolute drink responsibly vote responsibly. Here's your mid daybreak from Monday October twelfth I'm Jay Waylon for the Wall Street Journal hearings for Supreme Court nominee Coney Barrett are underway on Capitol Hill. Senators on both sides are laying out arguments over whether Barrett's nomination should go forward or wait until after the presidential election Republicans began by emphasizing barons qualifications while Democrats are focused on possible threats to the affordable Care Act Barrett is expected to speak this afternoon. US, stock markets opened the week in positive territory as investors bet on a rebound in corporate earnings in the third quarter. By midday, the Dow Jones Industrial Average was up nearly one percent while the S&P five hundred was up one and a half percent and the Nasdaq was up two point three percent and the Nobel Prize in economics was awarded to Stanford University professors for their insights into how auctions work and how they help buyers and sellers meet their goals. This morning's announcement gives the US sweep of this year's Nobel prizes with at least one American winning and each of the five categories for which individuals were selected. We more details on these stories and other news of the day at. Dot Com and the WNBA APP this election absolute is reminding every American to prioritize voting over everything else. Yes. Even drinking alcohol. So whatever you do vote I, drink second remember your vote has the power to shake or stir the election make it count. Absolute drink responsibly vote responsibly.
Wildfire smoke is especially dangerous for children, researcher warns
"I'm dr anthony leiserowitz and this is climate connections. As the climate warms more devastating wildfires are raging across the west and filling the air with toxic smoke. The smoke at self is composed of hundreds of toxins predominantly though. The smoke consists of particular matter. That is very very small. Two point five microns or less and the reason. This is so dangerous as that particular matter of that size when it's inhaled it can go all the way to the base year long and crossover into the bloodstream. And then re kavak in many different ways throughout the body. That's mary mckee of the sean parker center for allergy and asthma research at stanford university. She says children are especially at risk because their bodies are still developing they also tend to more physically active than adults so they may inhale smoky air deeper into their lungs so she recommends that parents monitor air quality and keep their kids inside when the air is polluted and certainly if a child has any type of respiratory disorder. Make sure you have a prescription refilled and on hand. If they should need an inhaler or something like that in the moment she says these precautions can help keep kids. Safer as wildfire seasons. Get more extreme. Climate connections is produced by the for environmental communication to hear more stories like this visit. Climate connections dot org.
Boston Dynamics Announces Stretch Robot for Warehouses - DTH
"Uh-huh these are the daily tech headlines for monday march. Twenty nine th twenty twenty one. I'm rich traveling to boston. Dynamics and outstretch a new robot. Does i to move boxes. In warehouses that had hoped to deploy commercially in two thousand twenty two stretches a square mobile base on wheels that uses a robotic arm with a suction pat array. That can move boxes up to fifty pounds and can be operated plugged in or up to eight hours on battery. Visa will allow the use of the stable coin. Usd coin to settle transactions on its payment network through a pilot program with crypto dot com with plans to expand it to other partners later this year. Usd coin is pegged to the us dollar and uses the athenian blockchain for transactions. A real link communications company that helps route text messages announced that the major. Us carriers will no longer be supporting sms or ms. text enabling under perspective. Wireless numbers to prevent hackers being able to easily route targets texts. This comes after. A security researcher was able to reroute text messages of motherboard reporter using a sixteen dollar service and then break into a number of online accounts including postmates. What's app and bubble stanford scientists andrew fire and moscow published. The are in a sequence of the modern cove nineteen vaccine to get hub which the researchers say is needed to differentiate it from other arnaiz in analyzing future biomedical data sets the researchers had fda relation to analyze the vaccine using small portions of doses. That remained in vials. After immunizations that would have otherwise been discarded a study by stanford university found that the apple watch series three can determine a user's frailty a metric used to evaluate functional ability and exercise capacity using at home. Six minute walking tests. The apple watch was able to accurately assess frailty with the sensitivity of ninety percent and specificity of eighty five percent when supervise in a clinical setting an mit study. Looking at the ten. Most cited data sets used a test machine. Learning systems found that three point. Four percent of data was either inaccurate or mislabeled. The findings published at label. Airs dot com google's quick-draw tests set which includes user submitted doodles had the most airs representing about ten percent of the data set. Open a announce the techs generator. Gp three is being used over three hundred. Different apps generated four point. Five billion words per day company still need to apply to access. Gp three general api with microsoft signing an exclusive deal last year for unique access to gp threes underlying code jami announced the one thousand one hundred ninety nine zero me eleven ultra featuring a one point one four hundred fifty ola display on the back that can be used as a selfie viewfinder or you notifications other upgrades over the standard me. Eleven include a larger. Five thousand million power battery ended improved camera array with a larger fifty megapixel main sensor forty eight megapixel ultra wide and five x periscope telephoto over the weekend to militias commits to add a back door. Republish to the official. Php git repository meant to look like a minor. Typo correction. That appear to be signed by php maintainers rasmussen lear. Dorf and akita popoff. Popoff said the commits were reverted as part of a post commit code review with the project. Planning to decommission. Its own get server and moving to get hub permanently to avoid the issue again. Ibm launched the first developer certification for program quantum computers the ibm quantum developer certification will focus on the open source quiz. Sdk and as the first of a series of planned quantum certifications. Sony closed the browser based version of the playstation store. That could still be used to buy three esp and playstation vita games although the ps store is still available on those consoles to make purchases so the updated the browser based playstation store last year to this ps four nps five games but region-specific links had allowed access to that older version and finally the lights photographic auction house will list a prototype. Like camera designed by johnny. I've and designer mark newsom for auction in june with a starting bid of one hundred thousand euros. This prototype was created during the development of the one off like 'em for red camera so that a charity auction in two thousand thirteen for one point. Eight billion dollars. Remember from our discussion of the tech news of the day. Subscribe to daily new show. New show dot com. You can find show nuts there and links to all these headlines in there as well. Thanks for listening. We'll talk you next time and from all of us here. At daily tech headlines remember have a super sparkly day.
Boston Dynamics Announces Stretch Robot for Warehouses DTH
"Uh-huh these are the daily tech headlines for monday march. Twenty nine th twenty twenty one. I'm rich traveling to boston. Dynamics and outstretch a new robot. Does i to move boxes. In warehouses that had hoped to deploy commercially in two thousand twenty two stretches a square mobile base on wheels that uses a robotic arm with the suction pat array. That can move boxes up to fifty pounds and can be operated plugged in or up to eight hours on battery. Visa will allow the use of the stable coin. Usd coin to settle transactions on its payment network through a pilot program with crypto dot com with plans to expand it to other partners later this year. Usd coin is pegged to the us dollar and uses the athenian blockchain for transactions. A real link communications company that helps route text messages announced that the major. Us carriers will no longer be supporting sms or ms. text enabling under perspective. Wireless numbers to prevent hackers being able to easily route targets texts. This comes after. A security researcher was able to reroute text messages of motherboard reporter using a sixteen dollar service and then break into a number of online accounts including postmates. What's app and bubble stanford scientists andrew fire and moscow published. The are in a sequence of the modern cove nineteen vaccine to get hub which the researchers say is needed to differentiate it from other arnaiz in analyzing future biomedical data sets the researchers had fda to analyze the vaccine using small portions of doses. That remained in vials. After immunizations that would have otherwise been discarded a study by stanford university found that the apple watch series three can determine a user's frailty a metric used to evaluate functional ability and exercise capacity using at home. Six minute walking tests the apple watch was able to accurately assess frailty with a sensitivity of ninety percent and specificity of eighty five percent when supervise in a clinical setting an mit study. Looking at the ten. Most cited data sets used a test machine. Learning systems found that three point. Four percent of data was either inaccurate or mislabeled. The findings published at label. Airs dot com google's quick-draw tests set which includes user submitted doodles had the most airs representing about ten percent of the data set. Open a announce the techs generator. Gp three is being used over three hundred. Different apps generated four point. Five billion words per day company still need to apply to access gp three general api with microsoft signing an exclusive deal last year for unique access to gp threes underlying code. Jami announced the one thousand one hundred ninety. Nine zero me eleven. Ultra featuring a one point one four hundred fifty ola display on the back that can be used as a selfie viewfinder or you notifications other upgrades over the standard me. Eleven include a larger. Five thousand million power battery ended improved camera array with a larger fifty megapixel main sensor forty eight megapixel ultra wide and five x periscope telephoto over the weekend to militias commits to add a back door. Republish to the official. Php git repository meant to look like a minor. Typo correction. That appear to be signed by php maintainers rasmussen lear. Dorf and akita popoff. Popoff said the commits were reverted as part of a post commit code review with the project. Planning to decommission. Its own get server and moving to get hub permanently to avoid the issue again. Ibm launched the first developer certification for program quantum computers the ibm quantum developer certification will focus on the open source quiz. Sdk and as the first of a series of planned quantum certifications. Sony closed the browser based version of the playstation store. That could still be used to buy three esp and playstation vita games although the ps store is still available on those consoles to make purchases so the updated the browser based playstation store last year to this ps four nps five games but region-specific links had allowed access to that older version and finally the lights photographic auction house will list a prototype. Like camera designed by johnny. I've and designer mark newsom for auction in june with a starting bid of one hundred thousand euros. This prototype was created during the development of the one off like 'em for red camera so that a charity auction in two thousand thirteen for one point. Eight billion dollars. Remember from our discussion of the tech news of the day. Subscribe to take new show. New show dot com. You can find show nuts there and links to all these headlines in there as well. Thanks for listening. We'll talk you next time and from all of us here. At daily tech headlines remember have a super sparkly day.
How to Handle Interruption
"We are so grateful to our launch partners, founding partner PNG, and Bank of America together. We're bringing you something good every day and it wouldn't be possible without their support. Welcome to this episode of here's something good. A production of the Seneca. Women podcast work and iheartradio. Each day we aspire to bring you the good news, the silver lining the glass half full because there is good happening in the world everywhere every day we just need to look for in share it. Here's something good for today. Nobody likes to be interrupted when they're talking you just about to make your point when someone steps all over your brilliant line. Certainly. We've seen enough examples of interruptions recently to ask how do we stop this? Fortunately. There are things we can do. We're talking today to an expert from Stanford University who has made a study of interrupting and who has some easy remedies. Interruptions, of course, are a fact of life one university studied examined thirty one conversations and caught forty eight interruptions. Interestingly forty six of those interruptions came from men. If. You're a woman who feels like she's been interrupted too much in conversation you're not alone. A different study found that when there were three women on the Supreme Court Rpg Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor almost sixty six percent of all interruptions or directed at them. Today's guest Dr Catherine. Hilton has made a study of when and how people interrupt. She's a lecturer in Linguistics Stanford University, and she gives us a fascinating look at the art and science of interrupting. Here's what Dr Hilton had to say. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. So we've seen some shall we say significant examples of interrupting lately but in daily life we know that it's it's women who often bear the brunt of interruptions in conversations according to one study men are thirty three percent more likely to interrupt women than they are men. How do you define interrupting how I define an interruption is anything that a person does that prevents the other person they're talking to from completing something they were trying to complete. That could be a sentence they're trying to complete. And in that case, you could recognize it interruption as another person starting speaking in the middle of that person sentence in a way that prevents them from completing the sentence. It could also be a much longer stretch of discourse. So if someone is trying to tell a story and even if they're not interrupted in the middle of a sentence, someone else could come in and change the topic and your research find some interesting distinctions on how people perceive interruption. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Oh sure. So we often think about interruptions in terms of exact timing of how people are talking and talking over each other. But just changing the topic. Can severely derail a conversation by researchers found that if you if somebody here's a woman or somebody, here's a man and they're doing literally the exact same thing if they hear a woman doing something that's perceived as variant eruptive. They will evaluate that much more negatively. So they will evaluate her eye seeming more aggressive and less intelligent. One of the interesting studies that we've seen is that women on the Supreme Court get interrupted more than men do was that surprising to you it was surprising to me. And the reason why is because unlike an enormous conversation? So if you're talking to your friends or your family dinner or you're at work You don't have clear cut rules, explicit rules about who is supposed to speak when and for how long this is very different in a clearly institutionalized strictly governed setting like a supreme court hearing their explicit about who is supposed to be speaking when and that only one person can speak at time very strictly until it was very interesting. For me to find out that. There were really any moments at all where One of the lawyers would ever jump in when a Supreme Court justices speaking I'm in that it happened more frequently than you had predicted not just in accidental moments or some thought another person was done. They're actually quite substantial moments of simultaneous speaking. Is there some kind of method to use or something you suggest for women to do? What do you recommend for women? In that case I would say if if you find yourself interrupted, let set you find yourself not really being heard. Station or a work meeting I think what's really important is trying to regain the floor. Without. Necessarily trying to compete with the person who took the floor away from you and so so separating you know you don't have to come back indirectly with what you were previously saying, and then you're talking at the same time as another person. But I personally use different techniques for signaling that I wasn't done and signaling, but I'd like the floor back signaling that there was either a genuine mistake or some sort of violation. d- really simple things like taking a breath and opening your mouth. A little bit shows that you're about to start speaking and that could be even if you don't quite start speaking yet that ideally if you have to operative conversation partners. Will Signal to other people that you have something to say making a small gesture whether it's you know raise your hand or making little head shake to show that this. Didn't go down how it was supposed to go down can be affected. And also starting by saying something like Oh actually, I haven't finished yet hang on a minute and you're putting the the obligation and the responsibility onto that. To respond to it and ideally to repair this misunderstanding or violation what are the tactics that was using the Obama White House was I'm sure you've seen this research where women decided to kind of help buddy system and when some would interrupt or try to serve misappropriated idea and meeting some would say you know, Oh, I see that you're building on Catherine's idea or even for yourself you could say something like, Oh, I'm glad you. I'm glad you liked what I said I'm glad you're building on that a you recommend that type of buddy system absolutely on especially if you yeah whether it's a colleague or even you know even more ideal if it's A manager person running the meeting. I. Think that's that's an excellent path to take especially if you've noticed a recurring patter. were. You've tried to manage it yourself in the moment, and it's not quite coming through curbing somebody else to help you is great. It seems like now it'd be a really important time to try to hone your skills to have positive conversations. Do you have any recommendations for how do you sort of encourage a positive environment for dialogue Oh sure this is something actually my. Husband and I were just talking about that one of the things that causes I uh, zoom fatigue. Perhaps this is something other people are experiencing is that out here hire give a lot of active visual and verbal ask permission in conversation we were noticing that we were getting back from people and we missed it. So I think a great thing we can all do is Each? Other ositive. Affirmation. Clear signs that were involved and engaged with what they're saying whether. It's icon. What is something like eye contact with the video Perhaps. A smile perhaps just reacting on your keys nodding giving gestures, but I think showing other people that you care is great. For making people feel a little bit more connected. Well I think you've really you've really hit on something really interesting with the difficulty in getting as much information as we're used to. So I really appreciate this I. Know it'll be extremely helpful everybody listening. So thank you so much for joining us and thanks for the work that you're doing. Oh you're thanks for having US great to chat. Fascinating who knew that interruptions could be perceived so differently by different people. So, here's something good for today. Interruptions are inevitable in conversation, but you don't have to let them derail you. Doctor says you can get the floor back by indicating that you're not quite done a raised hand a head, shake a deep breath, all signal that you're still in the game. Then follow up with something like thanks so much but I haven't finished yet. For Women who find their constantly talked over meetings, the technique developed by the women the Obama White House does wonders it's called amplification. It means creating packed ahead of time with someone who can jump in if you get interrupted. Something like I'm glad you're building on what Kim had to say. And, now they were all engaged in video conversations. It's important to recognize a lot of interruptions maybe accidental to keep the conversation flowing remember to use lots of affirmation that includes nodding smiling and visibly reacting to other speakers it will do wonders for the conversation. Thank you for listening and please share today's something. Good. In Your Life, this is Kim as a rally co author of fast forward in CO founder of Seneca women to learn more about Seneca women go to Seneca women, dot com or download the Seneca women APP, free in the APP store. Here's something good is a production of Seneca, women podcast network, and iheartradio. Have a great day. For more podcast iheartradio, check out the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. We may be living in uncertain times, but there are certain traits all Americans share strength. Resilience. Creativity. And a belief that when challenges arise we rise even higher. Our Partner Bank of America and it's more than two hundred thousand employees are committed to helping you build the tomorrow you can look forward to. Visit Bank of America Dot, com slash community to learn more.
It's 2050 And This Is How We Stopped Climate Change
"This message comes from NPR sponsor. Comcast business. Business has always been driven by innovators. That's why Comcast business is helping you with technology that provides better experiences. Comcast business beyond fast. Some Americans want to address a fundamental problem in fighting climate change. It's the problem of how to imagine solutions vast enough to make a difference. It is easy to dismiss almost any climate plan as to smaller on workable, some experts are trying to think bigger about the future as we will hear over the next few days from NPR's, Dan, Charles. I went looking for people who've mapped out this zero carbon world, and I found them in Silicon Valley. This is quite a beautiful spot. Good to meet you too. Silicon is an engineer from her back deck high in the hills. You look out over Cupertino California through the mist you can sometimes see Apple's big circular headquarters. It is a long way from Istanbul in Turkey where she grew up as a great place to dream the future. Let's go in and maybe like some coffee. Her coffee machine is powered by solar panels on the roof. So is there a laptop or wifi? Everything's on electric in this most of the time electricity from renewable sources, it's here. And it is the key to the future. Last year killer quit her job at Stanford University and launched a startup iae cume mobility, helping companies electrify entire fleets of vehicles like delivery, vans, inorder to have impact timeline packed. I figured that. I need to leave the research, and and really focus on impactful things that I wanted to and fast. It has to happen really fast. Scientists say to keep climate change from getting really bad the world has to bring greenhouse emissions practically zero by twenty fifty two zero. It is a giant leap, but silicon and I are going to take that leap with our solar panels on the roof or electric car in the garage. We start imagining that it is twenty fifty and it's really happy. We've stopped climate change any sense of how how we did it. He s silicon says we electrified everything electric cars came. I that was actually pretty easy. I twenty twenty five the battery technology got cheaper electric cars were no longer more expensive at that point. There was a massive shift to electric vehicles because they were quieter, and they were cleaner and less maintenance costs. No oil change, you'd be you know, heating, and cooling and homes and office buildings went electric people ripped out there guests furnaces replaced him with heat pumps. So, of course, we needed way more electricity. Right. When we were shutting down the power plants that burn gas and coal replacing them took a huge expansion of solar and wind farms today in twenty fifty they covered millions of acres ten times more than back in two thousand nineteen this happened all over the world. Huge transmission lines now carry power back and forth between north and South America. Europe is connected to solar. Installations in the Sahara, which means sub Saharan Africa now has cheap power for the first time. It just changed Africa actually fueled the economies in Africa, and we store that electricity. So it's always there when we need it with batteries and lots of other things to cities use extra power to heat up giant tanks of water that he buildings later down in the valley at Stanford University, the director of the university's climate and energy project. Sally Benson is so ready to imagine this world of twenty fifty. It's a little startling. I regularly take a helicopter electric helicopter from here to San Francisco. You can run a helicopter on batteries. Oh, yes. Yes. Of heaven. Heavens jr. Along time ago. Yeah. That that happened in the thirties. That was great. She means the twenty thirties like I said she's in total future mode, but she says even in this all electric world. There were some holdouts things that were hard to electrify some big steel and cement plants still are burning coal and natural gas, but they also had to build new plants that capture carbon dioxide from their furnaces and put it back underground, we just kind of had to bite the bullet and said, okay, if you're making cement or steel, you're capturing and sequestering that SIA to and some cases we actually had to say, we're not gonna make those things here anymore. Big long distance freight trucks, another problem, they're really heavy. And and batteries are really heavy. And if you have to put a whole bunch of batteries on on a truck it's going to be inefficient here. I have to admit this picture of a world without climate change. Does get a little fuzzy different people see slightly different things. Some people see electric highways with wires running overhead and trucks tapping into the power. Those wires the way electric trains, do others. See trucks running on hydrogen fuel we make the hydrogen using solar power. But Sammy Benson says really the hardest. Part of this journey was not finding technical solutions. They existed. The hardest part was handling the social disruption the chance for mations required were so profound that really needed to to be a collective effort entire industries died others were born people. Didn't know what would happen. They were scared. The change only happened when people were convinced they weren't getting ignored and left behind. It was the political challenge of generation now in twenty fifty. There's a sense of accomplishment are their children who look around at all the old buildings and say, what are those things they call chimneys? What were they for? They do you know, it's it's like an historical artifact. But you know, they find it very touching are really appreciative because they're living in a world where they don't need to worry about climate change anymore. It wasn't easy. And it wasn't free Bentsen. Says, but it was absolutely worth it. The air is so much cleaner cities or quieter, and we're not heating up the planet anymore. Dan, Charles, NPR news.
Squid's Glowing Skin Patterns May Be Code
"This is scientific American sixty seconds science I am Suzanne barred more than fifteen hundred feet below the surface of the ocean. It's darker than a moonlit night. But even in this murky world there's constant activity including groups of Humboldt squid each the size of a small adult human darting around in search of fish you can think of them as little rocket ships the jet through the water they engage in these feeding frenzies. They're always looking out for an opportunity to eat. Stanford University biologist then Burford. He says feeding group requires careful navigation. These animals are cannibalistic. The pretty aggressive so there's probably some risk to group living. We think a lot of communication they do in these groups helps with that like imagine driving and heavy traffic with a bunch of aggressive drivers. Say Down in Los Angeles thank goodness you have turn signals and brake lights and horns on your car is because that prevents a lot of catastrophe from happening. Burford things Humboldt squid communicate in the dark ocean by using their own form of signalling. They do it by turning their bodies into animated message boards. How like other stuff Lapaz? They can rapidly change the pigmentation patterns on their skin by contracting and relaxing their muscles. What's more their bodies can glow. They're creating a bio luminescent back lighting for their pigmentation patterns so it becomes somewhat like an easy reader. Something you can actually read in the dark. They're essentially just you know selectively revealing and concealing different parts of a glowing body producing these patterns on top of a glowing body. Burford suspected that the squids could be combining different pigmentation patterns to create complex signals. So each of those elements could mean something and they might have the potential to combine them to generate more meanings to find out his team. Attached cameras to remotely operated vehicles. In order to study the squids behavior we looked at how they arranged their patterns in sequence during Prey capture events the researchers found preliminary evidence that the sequence of patterns varies consistently in specific contexts. For example the squid tended to flicker when many other squid were around or darken when pursuing prey only to change their pattern. Just before striking. The study is in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Burford eventually hopes to do underwater experiments. In which the squid are shown playbacks of their visual. Signalling virtual glowing squid. If you will their reactions should be illuminating. Thanks for listening for scientific American Sixty Seconds Science. I'm Suzanne Bard.
The Formula To Create Your Maximum Impact
"How am I ever going to get there to see how that works in your mind you just completely screw yourself instead of doing what you're supposed to be doing? which is what's your next? Damn step. The millennial generation is as follows <music> well surrounded by podcast truth bomb about the fifteenth take. I've done on the show today because I just wasn't able to put my thoughts together but I think I've got it so let's let's roll with this. Everybody it's Tony It's surrounded. It's radio PODCAST. Let's talk about stuff having to do with us. Being the best people we can possibly possibly be maybe one percent better every single day. That type of thing openings are well. I wanted to talk this week and I've been trying to talk this week about the study that I read that was done at Stanford University about ethics and morality and how <hes> wanting to be a wide scale impact person on the world is getting people to sorta sell their mom <hes> to be able to do it. They're they're compromising their ethics in the morality's what they found or and what they found was is that the students would compromise their morality and their ethics to get ahead or to be you know wide scale impact or influence. Her thing is is that that's not news. That's we've done that everybody's. What he's done that? It's just a matter of it's a little bit different now because we have social media and your instrument is different. It's like a horse versus a car. It gets you from A. TO B. But cars faster and more technologically advanced and that's what's happening now. It's the same thing that's not what I really got out of this study most of all what I got out of it was the fact that that the students overall and these are bright sharp Stanford University students they didn't get it. They didn't get the fact that you could be you could have impact without having to be this wide scale impact influence or person of course they see it that way because of what Oh you have to deal with now with social media in information age the way that it is but the thing they're missing is the the missing piece of success and the missing piece of success is starting with you a little bubble and then working your way out one step at a time which means small scale impact anything starts with small scale impact when Toyota builds the Corolla start out with an idea then they put it on paper they put it on their computer drawing in and they make a clay model and they make a little bit of bigger model and they put it in the winton on they check that out then they make a concept car and then they check that out and they put that through the trials and tribulations on the test track and. Then when it gets to the point where all those modifications were made over that period of time then it's ready for large scale production and millions of people get the benefit from a great car you see where the people are looking now. They're looking at they have an idea and then they're just gonNa build millions of those ideas and then ship them out in. It's GonNa be a positive influence on people and that's where things are getting jacked up is because you can't really take just an idea and skeleton relative million people. It's got to incubate and it's got to go through. It's like a clay model. It's gotta be molded and shifted and there has to be some changes and some feedback and all that has to be done to get to the point where it has wide scale impact and the reason why the sits home for me is because I felt the exact same way when I finally figured out had that epiphany moment in Grad school and once I realized what my strength was and what I really wanted to do made my life so much harder because then I wanted to jump from step one to step fifty seven and I wanted to become a wide scale impact I wanted to change the world and that made things rough because you don't focus on the next step when that happens a you don't allow yourself to fall and fail and get up and learn from the failure because when you do fall and Phil first of all it's. It's really hard to focus on anything because now your focus is way in the in the distance and you don't see stuff in front of you. It's like walking and looking at the horizon and and you're not seeing the things in her front of U._C.. or fallen John over curbs. You're tripping over sprinklers. It's it's just a disaster but the problem is that once you do fall off the curb then then that creates the entire reality of the situation for you like okay I can't even I can't even go one step to get to their. How am I ever going to get there to see how that works in your mind you just completely screw yourself instead of doing what you're supposed to be doing? which is what's your next? Damn step to get to where you want to go and it's it's a mistake. Most people make it's a mistake most people that I've come to me that I've mentor and coached over the years has made and I'm not going to throw a stone because I did the same thing and it because it's really really difficult because you're so excited and you know your group. Who've is and you know how you could make some level of impact and then you're basically sabotaging yourself because you're not focusing on the next thing you're not focusing on small impacts and that is the key? That's the key to ever re thing first. Step small steps APPS nextstep taking small actions if you've read the book or if you've seen the book and you want to read the book I'll give away the ending the ending is take small dam actions to get to where you WANNA go. That's really my entire reason for writing. The book is to get you. You off your ass and to do something to give you that level of understanding to erase any of the cares or worries about going out there and and making a misstep or going out there and finding meaning that you're in going the wrong direction you WanNa make a correction. That's the entire reason I wrote. The book is to take the worry in the caraway. You shouldn't care about any of that shit. If I get you to do that. Then I have done what I I need to do here and that that's my large scale impact is getting you to not care and I and to be honest with you not to not care all the time because I still battle with that all the time because I'm a very impatient in person and when you know what you WanNa do and you know where your strengths are then you become very impatient when things don't happen at the level or at the rate that you want them to and I battle with that constantly. That's the reason I meditate. That's the reason I journal is to keep myself in check and get myself back into just focusing on the next step and that's the important thing that I would like to share with you is my struggle for the next step and the fact is is that I really hope when when it comes down to it if you're ever put in a position where you're going to be compromising your morality or your values your ethics on a large scale. You know we all kind of bend. It's like Ben. Don't break type of thing with those. Thanks and I'm not going to cast aspersions at you for whatever you happen to do you have to own your own foundation of who you are but that being said I would hope that anytime it would come up to where that's challenged lunged your true essence of who you are. That's ever challenged the you would make the decision and say this is a short term gain in it's not worth it or this is a road that I may have sell my soul but I guarantee you. If you ever find yourself in a position where you you feel as though you're selling a big piece of you to get somewhere then that is the wrong decision because it will come back not just the Karma thing it just will because you'll be on a road where you're being inauthentic antic and you can never sustain being on an inauthentic road. You'll only sustain the road to where it's your road and that being said go out there small impacts. I'm rooting for you. I I hope things are well. If you have any questions comments or concerns you can always get a hold of me at Tony Java Bud Dot Com. If you have a topic that you would like to hear if you have a fascinating story you would like to share get hold of me. Tony Java Bud Dot Com you can go to Java Bud dot dot COM J. V. A. B. C. D. and you can listen to all the podcast that I've done in the past three and a half years you can watch videos. There's some freebie stuff up there again. I'm going to tease the fact that I'm going to be. I'm going to be creating an offer a book offer if you haven't received the book already. I hope things are well this week. Do good things focus on the next steps and I will talk to.