17 Episode results for "Southern Baptist Theological Seminary"
After The Fact: Luther and the Righteousness of God with Dr. Gregg Allison
"Welcome to after the fact a knowing. Faith mini episode where we look to take a big question and address it in just a few minutes. Typically the questions we consider will line up with our larger topic for the season and that certainly true for our time. Today this season on knowing faith we are discussing romans and joining us today. Dr greg alison. Dr alison is professor of christian theology at the southern baptist theological seminary. He's the author of several books that are including but not limited to historical theology an introduction of christian doctrine fifty core truths of the christian faith and roman catholic theology and practice and evangelical assessment dr alison. Welcome to after the fact. Thanks for joining us. Banks again for having me love the after the fact glad to join you. Well we dr alison goes way back with the nine faith crew anytime we have a chance to have dr alison odd. We are trying to. We've brought you into talk about the holy spirit talk about the catholic church to talk. Talk about Genesis and creation accounts with a gust. In i mean we have brought you in as our resident historical theologian. And we are grateful for you. They i remember high-fiving. Gt english guy. On a point that he and i were against you engender. Something like yeah. I can remember that. I remember i can remember the internet. Definitely citing most decidedly with you jay. I think they were wise to do so well. Here's our big question for today. Did martin luther have anything to say about. Righteousness of god and romans absolutely One of Martin luther 's a favourite books if not his favorite book in the bible was romans but before he became a follower of jesus He really focused on romans. One seventeen which talks about the righteousness of god but that he read as the justice of god which was about god's wrath and condemnation towards sinners. And he is he thought about the justice of god. He experience experience tear in his heart. I mean it was. It struck just hor in his heart because he knew that his temp attempts to merit the righteousness of god. The grace of god through a confession of sin crane good works. He knew all of his temp attempts were futile. And so he said of romans one seventeen. I did not love. indeed. I hated that god. Punishes centers and with a monstrous silent murmuring. I- fumed against god so he took the righteousness of god to refer to the justice of god by which god justly deals with centers by justly punishing. The unjust and so luther was troubled in conscience. He had no confidence whatsoever. in his merits. Until reflecting on the righteousness of god he discovered that rather than being about the wrath and condemnation of god. It was about a gift that god gives sinners who repent confess. Christ turned to christ through the gospel a gift of perfect standing before god god's gift of the righteousness of christ by which we can stand before him and luther at that point basically would have experienced a conversion through the gospel of the grace of god in righteousness of christ Now dr alison outside of the miraculous work of the holy spirit which was certainly involved in eliminating this for for martin luther and in converting him was there anything that was happening at a linguistic or theological level and luther understanding of the concept. That was really the key to that. Discovery was there something that he was discovering for himself or something that he saw differently. Or how did that change happen. Really again we know that it was a work of god but was there some sort of study that he was doing or reflection or discovery that he made that helped him see that more clearly. So leading up to s- right. He's he's lecturing on a sounds and relations and romans so he's coming into constant contact with the word of god and then beginning to properly understand what righteousness is. What grace is he. He's also write a medieval roman catholic. Right who's understanding of grace is divine favor that's infused into him through the sacraments a divine favor that then transforms his life and enables him to cooperate with grace engage in good works and mary eternal life but that was not satisfying to him. Berating again was struck with tear in his heart. His conscience He felt like a guilty center as he was and this infusion of grace was not working for him he knew that he could never do enough to cooperate with grace to merit forgiveness so He begins to understand right. That grace is about god's imputation his god's declaration of him not guilty but righteous instead this is the doctrine of justification justification isn't about transformation it's about a divine declaration where no longer condemned right. We're no longer guilty right or forgiven of our sins. And as importantly the righteousness of jesus christ of perfect righteousness of god son is attributed to it to us. Put in our account. So god when he sees us sees us clothing the perfect righteousness of jesus christ luther needs the perfect righteousness of jesus christ to stand before god and he has through the gospel of justification by grace. Ooh faith in christ okay so that that moves him from an an infusion understanding imputation understanding but key the whole difference yeah so imputation and for him he calls it. The sweet exchange right are right. You are sin is imputed to christ our sin is given to christ price righteousness as imputed us is a credit to our account. The sweet exchange. We'll give priced arson. He gives us as righteousness nothing sweeter than that. That's imputation absolutely was. It was good news for luther. And it's good news for you. And i exactly dr alison. Thank you so much for joining us again. We are honored every time that you're here and blessed by thank you. Thank you kyle. After the fact is brought to you by the southern baptist theological seminary if you want to study with incredible professors like dr alison head over to s. b. t. s. dot edu and discover why southern seminary is trusted for truth.
After The Fact: Is the Gospel of Christ Different From Paul's Gospel with Dr. Jonathan Pennington
"Welcome to after the fact, and knowing faith many episode where we look to take a big question and address it in just a few minutes. Typically, the questions we consider will line up with our larger topic for the season that certainly true for our time today. We're discussing Roman's unknowing fate this season, and joining us today is doctor Jonathan, Pennington. Doctor Pennington is Professor of New Testament at the Southern Baptist theological seminary and the pastor of spiritual formation at sojourn, east church in Louisville. He is also the author of several books, including but not limited to, reading the gospels wisely, the sermon on the mount and human flourishing, Jesus the great philosopher and small preaching, 25 little things you can do now to make you a better preacher. Doctor pinnington, welcome to after the fact. Thanks for joining us. Always great to chat with you. Well, doctor Pennington, you are a friend of the show. We've had you on many times to talk about big issues, small issues, and I'm glad that you're here again. Here's our big question today. Is Paul's gospel different from Christ's gospel? Such a great question and an important one because we really care about the Bible being unified, right? We believe that bibles all speaking with one voice yet also it doesn't always say the same thing on every page. So it's a great question to ask. Now, as you know, I'm a gospel's guy, so I spend most of my life in the gospel. So I think it's fun for me to ask this question too as we think about how do the gospels relate to this famous letter of Paul, the letter to the Romans. And how I answer that is I'd say that what's entirely consistent between the gospels and all of poll's letters is that they all think the gospel is the message about the kingdom of God. Now, that may not initially strike one when you first start reading Romans, especially because we as protestants, Romans has really played a central role in understanding of emphasizing the particular message that we receive, we can be in a relationship with God, through Jesus Christ, not according to the mosaic law and not according to our own works earning our Salvation. So that's really important to us in our understanding of the Bible. And so that actually sometimes creates a kind of a weird thing. Like, how does that relate to what Jesus says in the gospels, but again, I would say that it all ties together with this mega idea of the kingdom of God. And let me just point this out to you in Romans. First, let's think about how Paul's ministry is described by his disciple Luke in the book of acts. All the way through Paul's ministry is described as him preaching and teaching about Jesus and particular about Christ's kingdom. And if you look at the very end of acts, the summary that Luke gives us about to describe how what Paul was doing, it says in the very end of acts that Paul was in prison and he was teaching the kingdom of God to anyone who would listen basically. So it's very interesting, kind of set up before you get to the book of Romans that acts tells us that Paul's preaching about the kingdom of God. And then if you look at Romans, he talks about all these very important and beautiful things about the relationship of Christianity to the mosaic covenant and how we can have relation with God through Jesus. But when he gets to the end, he starts talking then again about he brings it all together with this language of the kingdom of God. For example, he talks about that at the end of the day, 14, 17, Romans 14, 17 for the kingdom of God. He's got a summing it all up. The kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness. This big idea poll is going to talk about enrollments. Righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. So as it gets to the end, is he kind of says, here's the end of my sermon. Here's the end of my big ideas. He brings it back to what he talked about all the time, exactly what Jesus talked about, which is what is how you get into the kingdom of God. What is really the king of God. So all that to say and maybe you want to ask a question on that, but all that to say is that I think there's an entire consistency between Paul and Jesus and Paul and the gospels and it's all centered on understanding that the gospel message is the message that God is coming into the world to restore his reign upon the earth and to bring flourishing and shalom to the whole earth and that only comes through Jesus Christ who is after all Christ means king. It's the anointed one, right? So it's all consistent. Paul is emphasizing a special problems that he ran into with a misunderstanding of that gospel message. The gospels I think are giving us the most comprehensive kind of vision for this message where Jesus preaching the kingdom of God, but I think it's all centered around the same big idea of God's restoration of his reign upon the earth. I think that's absolutely crucial because when people early readers, like I'm talking about early readers, not in the life of the church, but new disciples. When you start walking them through the gospels, and then you take them to the letters of Paul. I find that they often feel like, wow, okay, I'm dealing with something very different now. And one of the questions that I wonder is I wonder and this could be total, you might just say, no Kyle, that's dumb. Which would be that you wouldn't be the first. JT and Jen have said that many times as you well know. But I wonder sometimes if the gap that we experience or the gap that we feel between the content of Paul's gospel and the content of Christ's gospel is exacerbated by the differences of genre. Like that, okay, well, the gospel form, the genre of the gospels, the way that they're written, the way that the literature is formed is just very different than the epistles. Do you think that plays into that feeling of that gap that we feel like exists between, okay, poll is focusing on all of these very straightforward middle of the fairway. He wants to talk about he wants to define these terms very clearly. Whereas the gospels, maybe are allowing the historical narrative to provide just more, I don't know pros. Is that unfair to say? Do you feel like that gap in conversation is exacerbated by a difference in genre? Yeah, I appreciate the golf reference. Woven into that middle of the fairway. Yeah, you know, I think that's part of it. I don't think that's wrong. I would not say it's the primary thing going on, though. I do think there is a genre difference. I think the primary difference of feel that you get. And different emphasis, they really do emphasize different things. Has more to do with the not the nature of the literature itself as genre, but the occasion that is that the gospels are really presenting themselves as comprehensive biographies of the central person that our faith is based on. And what an ancient biography does, which the girls was ours, they provide a repository of the person's teachings and a testimony to what they did, how they lived. And so that's what the gospels do. And so I guess you could kind of say that's a genre thing. But the difference with Paul's letters is not so much just that their letters, but that they're written to specific situations to address problems. And so this is what we call the occasional nature of the epistles. That is that they are written to particular occasions. And so even Romans, which is a little bit more generalized than some of the other letters like first and second Corinthians, even it has a purpose behind it to clarify a problematic understanding, particularly the problematic understanding that many of the judaizers who are these people who were in conflict with Paul a lot, who said, yeah, Jesus is great, but you also need the mosaic covenant. Right? And so he's very inlays and Romans. He's particularly strongly arguing. No, that's not that's not the gospel. You don't need Jesus plus the mosaic, Kevin, and I'll show you why. And so I would say it's not explicitly the genre, but more the occasion of the gospels comprehensive goal versus the letters, particular arguments that they're making. That's really helpful. Doctor painting, it's always a joy to get to speak with you. Thank you for making time to talk with us today. Thank you. After the fact is brought to you by the Southern Baptist theological seminary, if you want to study with incredible professors like doctor pinnington, head over to S, BTS EDU and discover why southern seminary is trusted for truth.
After the Fact: Does Abraham Change God's Mind in Prayer with Dr. Bruce Ware
"Welcome to after. The fact and knowing thanked mini episode where we looked at take a big question and address it in just a few minutes. Typically the questions. We consider lineup with our larger topic for the season. That's certainly true for our time today. We are discussing genesis twelve through fifty on knowing this season and joining us today. Is dr bruce wear. Dr wear is the rupert and lucille coleman professor of christian theology at the southern baptist theological seminary where he has been teaching for twenty three years. And he's the author of several books including but not limited to god's lesser glory. The diminish god vocalism god's greater glory the exalted god of scripture and the christian faith in big truth for young hearts teaching and learning the greatness of god. Dr welcome to after the fact. Thanks for joining us. Thank you kyle. It's a pleasure to be with you. So here's our big question today. When abraham intercedes on behalf of sodom in genesis eighteen does abraham's prayer change. God's mind good question. Yeah that's it's very interesting passage but it has similarities with other similar kinds of passages might might bring to mind for example When moses is with god on mount sinai in exodus thirty two in god tells moses you know of that he's going to go down and destroy the people because they're building the golden calf right and bose's intercedes right so it's interesting. Something similar here. That god tells abraham that they're going down to sodom and is so i think the purpose of that is not so that abraham will say something that would change. God's mind. I mean that's ludicrous. That a number of levels the the most basic one is how abraham say anything they got had not already considered right. How how could moses in his appeal to god remember the covenant. God in exodus thirty two as god respond a moses. You're right. I forgot the covenant. Goodness thank you for reminding me right. This is This is god. He knows everything so It's not abraham was gonna tell him anything that he doesn't already know but what he does wouldn't god tells one of his servants something like this as in genesis eighteen it invites abraham to join The the work that god is doing in his prayer so it invites prayer or in this case it an appeal as part of the outworking of gaza purposes. When just indicates how earnest god is in wanting his people to be involved in what he's doing so involves the rather than signed sidelines them right yet. So god told abraham that instead. That's it i don't need to hear anything from you. I'm just going to go down and do it ryan stead. He invites hymns response. And in by the way is clear in this passage that this is yala the lord and the reason is the reason i mentioned that is because you might you might have thought maybe not. Because at the beginning of chapter eighteen it begins with the lowered appeared to abraham by the oaks of mammary but then in verse to wallet lifted up his eyes look behold three men or standing opposite him and of course then the story continues that they prepare some bread items in food for these men to eat so they eat with april and And then they tell abraham what they have told him before this. Sarah is going to have a child and you know. Isaac was going to be born from her sarah laughs and then when we pick up the story again the kind of results in the particular passage were looking at it. Says the lord verse twenty. The lord said the outcry of sodom and gomorrah is a degrade is exceedingly rain so it is one of those men. Evidently is a A representation of god when four and a An expression of god in a physical way. The god often does in in the old testament and so here we have one of the three and notice in verse. Twenty two When the men were turned away from there They they went down to sodom while sodom. While abraham was standing before the lord so the one who is the lord stays with abraham while to go on down to sodom so this one that abraham does bargaining with as it were you know what of we find fifty righteous on agent. But you just minus five of that. That's not so bad. Is it so forty five. And so he works his way down all the way down to tan in verse. Thirty two and again god degrees. He won't destroy if there are that many. This is really not To help god know what to do right. It is rather involving abraham and his heart has compassion his His longing for god's justice to be upheld so all of those things are part of the reason for why god would involve labor indus. Something that he didn't have to involve abraham with with at all right so the so. The purposes of god are Toward sodom are not really up for discussion. Here's right. Abraham being invited to participate to have of his heart aligned with what god is going to do with the purposes of gone be formed in keeping with that. Yes has right. Let me ask you dr. Wear just kind of as we land the plane here. Why do we want to protect what you just said. Why why why. Why would we want to be careful to find ourselves in a position. Where we say. Abram changed guides mine and that's problematic at all. Why is that worth being clear about. Can you clearly. 'cause i think some of our listeners may feel like well what's really up for what's really what could we lose. Prayer does change. That's mine thank you very good question. I think what what is at stake year is whether or not god really does know everything and is going to take place in the future or whether as open roses this view. That kind of came up in the in the late. One thousand nine hundred evangelical has the nine hundred ninety s this view that god does not know the free choices and actions of human beings in the future and so he. There's a huge portion of the future. That god does not know until it happens and the problem with that of course is just goes against so much of the bible teaching of god's knowledge which of course is knowledge of all of the past and knowledge of the present. All of the church has always affirmed. It includes exhaustive knowledge of the future also. And when you think for example of biblical prophecy how could god prophesy with the specificity that he does Aspects of the of christ in his coming his life is work is death and so on. if god didn't know the details that surrounded what would happen with christ in his life and the like and and so many other things how could god prophesied cyrus in forty four that he would be the one who would be the instrument through whom god would rebuild jerusalem. If god doesn't know the circumstances of what is going to happen so just realize so. Much of god's providence is really put into question. If god doesn't know everything so really that's that's what is at stake is the goddess of god in many ways. Why my book that. I wrote on the openness view as a critique i said god's lesser glory as the title of it because i think that's an appropriate way to think of the diminishing of god if you say that he doesn't know future exhaustively you know this is. I'm smiling and i'll close down here a second. I just got to tell you this. Dr wear normally do this. And he's after the fact that i'm smiling because this is not the first time heard this from you. I've never sat in one of your classes. But i was an undergraduate students studying philosophy and somebody had i kind of gotten Caught up through some books. I was reading in an open. An open mystic viewed. It felt very kind of it. Felt very fashionable. At the time whenever i will hang and it was very in vogue and i was studying philosophy and it just kind of aligned. It felt like a a way forward so to speak with some of the difficulties. That seemed very hard for me and this was as if we can all imagine a time. This is right at the outset of youtube. Like like it was right at the beginning and there was a lex jer that you had given somewhere. I don't even remember where it was all an open theism and and It was the first really Very clear articulation of everything that you would lose in that view remember. I walked away from that. And i no longer. I i knew. I knew that open theism was no longer tenable for me if i was gonna move forward in accordance with scripture and your book not long after that god's lesser glory and it was an incredibly influential book at just the right moment and so it's crazy. We've never spoken before. But i felt like having you today. I just. I have to tell him that before. So thank you for today but for years. Now thank you will thank you. Kyle is kind of you mentioned that. And by his you know as we all do thank the lord for opportunities to uphold his greatest glory and Try to be faithful to the bible in ways that will build up the saints. We'll list after the fact is brought to you by the southern baptist theological seminary if you want to study with incredible professors. Dr wear head over to s. P. t. s. dot edu and discover why southern seminary is trusted for truth.
After the Fact: What Does Abraham's Prayer Over Sodom Show Us About Intercession with Dr. Don Whitney
"Welcome to after the fact and knowing faith mini episode where we looked to take a big question and address it in just a few minutes. Typically the questions. We consider lineup with our larger topic for the season. That's certainly true for our time today. Discussing genesis twelve through fifty unknowing faith season and joining us. Today is dr donald whitney. Dr whitney is professor of biblical spirituality. And then associate dean the school of theology at the southern baptist theological seminary. He's the author of numerous books including the incredible influential book spiritual disciplines for the christian life. Which i can say could be confidently called a modern day. Classic along with praying the bible and numerous others. That i strongly encourage you to check out dr whitney. Welcome to after the fact. Thanks for joining us. This kyle great to be with you. It's an honor to be a guest On your podcast today. Here's the big question for dr whitney. What does abraham's prayer for sodom teach us or show us about intercession There's almost dislike negotiation. That goes on lord howe fifty about forty about thirty but twenty know down like that and it's been suggested that that abraham is is counting as he's doing this because you have he's thinking okay. There's lot there's his wife they have a two sons. They're both married so now we're up to eight and then t to unmarried daughters so ten so when it gets down to ten th that's why he stops ten but the the patterns been established here that god will not destroy The righteous and of course we know that apart from price no one is righteous and so his is justice is always right. I mean this is near the place in the bible there. Where it says. Gel the judge of all the earth Not do right that that in fact it's inverse a twenty five year out. The judge volley earth. New is just will our problem. Is you know what What does that justice look like. And do we deserve it but he intercedes here in just keeps kind of changing going from one thing to another. If if we were to do this today it might be. We pray one thing today in tomorrow a little bit differently in later will lord you know. Would you please do this and lay me look in in in our setting today and a report you over to the new testament which says If you're let your request be may not made known to. God and a mentioned that because in liste- your prayer is known to be sinful are just wrong. Let your request be made known to god who why not i mean. We think there are a lot of things that we don't know if they are god's will or not. I don't think there's a mystical way by which we determine is it. God's will i. I do this or i do that. I don't think we have access to that information as often as some people might think and therefore let your request be made known to god so if you're interceding for someone and you're praying. Let's say that they get a job or a relationship. Works out unless you have reason to think it's a bad thing. Let your request be made normally got right. And so i think we see that is one big lesson there. With with abraham also the patience of got And sometimes the the need to intercede again and again and again right there. Those classic stories like with george mueller. Who had over fifty thousand specific recorded answers to prayer in his journals over thirty thousand which he said ransford. The same day are same. Our right there were four people. He had prayed for their salvation for sixty years and two of them were not converted until after he died. A couple of them were shortly before he died. And so there are many things we may have to intercede for a again and again and again and god patiently listens to those as we see in abraham store. And dr whitney. I think gosh i. We're already off to some really good points here but as we just kind of think about wrapping this up i guess one of the things that whenever i read this account in genesis. Eighteen that. I'm gonna left struggling with and maybe you've heard this before either in reference to the story or just generally in reference to people's prayer life and that this kind of persistence in prayer. Is that something that pastors god. I often feel whenever i'm bringing something to the lord over and over again there's both the perseverance required of me and there is the patients have got an entertaining it but is it a distrust to continue to bring what feels like ever kind of more. Specific requests right so abraham's kind of talking god and the number is getting smaller and smaller. I've heard some say does is abraham's unfaithfulness. Is it his dish that he's kind of trying to shrink it down that his his prayer started really big. But now it's kind of ending. Small is have you ever felt that in your own pro-life refill like much is kind of rationalizing to get to the smallest potential Answerable prayer in order. That it will be answered. You know sure. I think everyone has since that to some degree kyle and but i think we have the command communities luke. Eighteen one from the story there the unrighteous judge in the widow of keep praying. And and don't give up unless you know that there's something wrong with your prayer or something that just you have something. That convinces you that god is just not going to answer this. That as long as you have the heart to do. So keep praying. Keep asking matthews seven seven through eleven. They keep on asking keep on seeking keep on knocking and back to luke eighteen which begins with he toll assist so that we would always pray and not lose heart so as long as you have the heart to do so no i think god is is honored that we keep coming back because contrast that with what i think we do. Most of the time that is we pray earnestly for something today and tomorrow. We don't even think it anymore. Yeah you're right and never again. Maybe do we bring it up. Oh yeah. I haven't thought about that for several days now so i think it indicates that you're really serious with god when you come back again and again and again despite the discouragement of not seeing any answer whatsoever so No i don't think god is has ever pestered are patient with us if he were. I think some you'd let us know. Yeah yeah Let me three a curveball here. does abraham change. God's mind in the scope of this prayer right. God was going to do this thing. Abraham comes to for him. he's interceding intercession change. God's mind well theologically we have to say. No you know the bible. God does not change his mind. But we're the bible also teaches us that our prayers make a difference. Yeah so it's the classic issue in prayer. If god is sovereign pray. God knows a future. Why pray well. The the short answer to that without being snarky is very clearly what god tells us to and so there are things we just don't understand about what it means to be sovereign. We can't there things we don't get about knowing the future. We can't so we have to leave those things to an omnipotent omniscient god and the clear things are our responsibilities. We're told pray and to be encouraged. Our prayers make a difference. we're also on scripture. That has certain ends certain things he's going to do. We also ordained means and those means are often our prayers so there are many things in other words. If god is going to do but he's going to do them in answer to our prayers. Dr whitney grateful. I feel like you've exhorted us to a more. Perseverance paralyzed a lot of this story. With abraham in genesis chapter eighteen. And listen after the fact is brought to you by the southern baptist theological seminary if you want to study with incredible professors. Like dr whitney head over to sbs dot edu and discover why southern seminary is trusted for truth.
After the Fact: Did the Holy Spirit indwell Abraham? with Dr. James Hamilton
"Welcome to after the fact and knowing safe mini episode where we look at take a big question and address it in just a few minutes. Typically the questions. We consider will line up with our larger topic for the season. That's certainly true for our time today. We're discussing genesis. Twelve through fifty unknowing. Faith this season and joining us. Today is dr james hamilton. Dr hamilton is professor of biblical theology at the southern baptist theological seminary the author of several books including but not limited to what is biblical theology. The bible's big story. Salvation history for kids. And god's dwelling presents the ministry of the holy spirit in the old and new testaments which will touch on a little bit. Today he also serves as the preaching pastor at cynwyd baptist church dr hamilton welcomed. After the fact thanks for joining us. Really glad to be here. Thanks for having me all right. So here's the big question. Did the holy spirit in dwell abraham. I don't think so. I do think that What genesis indicates in genesis eight. I think it's i twenty one after the flood. so you know before the flood in genesis. Six God saw that the thoughts of man's heart was were only evil all the time and then after the flood. I believe it's genesis. Eight twenty one There's a statement basically saying the same thing that The lord you know it looks on the heart of man. And he sees that they're only evil all the time and so i do think that some sort of spirit empowered renewal had to have taken place within abraham and i would locate that as circumcision of the heart so I i know that that's an scatalogical. Promise that god will circumcise the hearts of his people but i think nevertheless That got a must have done something like that. In order to enable people to believe right. But then i think that god in in the old covenant he seems to take up residence at particular places. Any seems to locate himself at these places where he worked where he is worshiped. By his people and abraham's case He visibly appears to people. Once they are given the tabernacle The the lord fills the tabernacle with his glory. And i think that the implication is that by his spirit he is taking up residence in dwelling the tabernacle and then that will basically also at the building of the temple. And then those. Those realities are used to inform the in dwelling presence of the holy spirit in the church for instance infrastructure. Three sixteen call says. Don't you know that you yourselves. Are god's temple and that god's spirit dwells in you so under the old covenant. God dwelt in the temple under the new covenant. The people are the temple in wit. This is fascinating. And i told you this. One of our phone calls but actually as a very precocious masters of divinity student. I read your book and I i wrote a paper. Criticizing it now. I gotta tell you. I am terrified. I've told i've said on the gas before. I've been terrified of talking with you about it because my criticism was very bad And your book is very good wrong. But i will say this one thing that leaves me scratching my head in this. Conversation is the role of the spirit in the new testament. It certainly appears to be part of it is keeping god's people right. The of the spirit is the seal of salvation and that it it keeps us in this covenant of love that we have been brought into in christ and i guess some of the things i kinda get heartburn over when i think about abraham and this would really apply to not just abraham. We're using him as a kind of a case study. But it could apply to to moses noah to any of the faithful followers of y'all way in the old testament how were they kept if not by in dwelling power and presence of the holy spirit. That's for me. What feels like man. Is this a disk. Is this just discontinuity or attention that we just have to say we don't really know y'all way was faithful in the manner of that faithfulness. Changed in the covenant. That's what kind of gives me a little bit of heartburn could you maybe just tease that out for me for a moment. Or maybe you're not. Maybe there's just not a solution. Nah i think there are indications. In the tax in abraham's you know the lord repeatedly appears to him lord appears to him in genesis fifteen and then genesis seventeen and then again in genesis eighteen. So the lord's continual continues to appear to abraham and continues to reiterate for instance genesis. Twenty two he continues to reiterate the promises that that were initially articulated in genesis. Twelve one through three right and once the lord has said to abraham in genesis twelve. Three i will bless those who bless you and him who dishonors you. I will curse and that point. I think that if you want to be part of the blessing of abraham you want to be where. Abraham is go for instance. I think the fact that lots separates from abraham and doesn't seek to maintain contact with him is an indication that lot is not at that point. Ask interested in the promise as he should be. You know the world of and the devil are leading away and lock winds up doing some horrific things. I mean the new testament says he still a righteous man so level i think he knows the promises any beliefs the promises but it would have been in my view as i read genesis. It would have been better for lot. Had he realized if. I want to be blessed. I need to stick by him so we have to separate because we have so much stuff but i need to stay close to abraham i need to stay in contact with abraham and then once sodom get destroyed. Lot doesn't need to hold up in that cave santa himself whereas abraham flares right. Where's my uncle. And how do. I get reconnected to him. So so is it is. Maybe the larger thing that's going on here. Is that the presence. Or the presence of god or gods blessed presence may be or the president of the spirit is more localized in. It's kind of. Oh i don't wanna say manifestation but it's more localized in its impact throughout the old testament weather with like the chosen man. Like abraham than the tabernacle and the temple is that. Is that the idea that it's just more localized. The old testament in the new testament were dispersed. Well i i think that The particular place is more significant under the old covenant. Because it seems to me that what what has happened is that the the the world was created as a kind of cosmic temple yet place where god would be present with those who bear his image and who are made created to visit his authority and his his holiness in all the world. And then that cosmic Defiled and people are driven out of the garden of eden which is kind of a cosmic holy of holies holy of holies of the cosmic temple and then the lord promises abraham what amounts to like up a recapturing of the or. Maybe a re cleansing or you know retaking of the cosmic temple when he says i'm going to give you this land right. And and then at that. Point the the patriarchs particularly jacob and joseph. They insist that they need to be buried in the land right. And that is a that's an indication of their faith their beliefs. It that this promise. That god has made is going to go beyond their death. And it has relevance beyond their deaths. And i think it indicates that they're looking for the resurrection when the promises will be fulfilled and god will dwell with people in the land where he has promised to go with him. Now win when we get into exodus The people are in egypt but again. God is saying to moses in to the elders of israel I'm going to take you back to that land that i swore to your fathers outright. And we're going to go there. And at that point you know the tabernacle and the occult system is is set up but even before that the lord meets noses at at what is referred to as the mountain of god and it seems that in some way the omnipresent god is is particularly president in a kind of continental way to blast at mount horrid mount sinai where he says. The sign of this covenant. But i'm gonna make with us that you will worship me on this mountain when i brought you egypt so so this focus on place seems to point. I think to god's plan to retake all creation and then he puts israel in the land and then they do the same thing that adam did they get themselves exiled from the land and then when when the new covenant is inaugurated jesus that conversation with the samaritan woman where he says she says We worship on this mountain. Jews say that jerusalem is the place where we must worship and he says Salvation is from the jews so firms the old testament and what god has done through the jewish people but then he goes on to say a time is coming in his. Now here win. You worship the father neither neither on this mountain or in jerusalem but in spirit and in truth and what jesus i think indicates is that the new covenant is not going to be made with a particular ethnic nationality as it was with the people of israel and the the people of the new covenant are not going to have geographical boundaries and. They're not going to have one. Holy place where god dwells so another aspect of what kept old covenant believers is the fact that all males in israel required to go up to jerusalem to the temple three times a year for the big feasts right and then you have those songs where like psalm eighty four. The psalmist is saying. How lovely are your gates. Oh jerusalem and better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere. So i think part of what kept israel was the requirement that they participate in the political colt through the case so that they actually entered into the presence of god on a regular basis in the new covenant We don't have we don't have boundaries around a particular land we're not limited to. I mean now you know gentiles. Non jews become Part of the covenant people but they basically had to become israelites. They had to say like roof. Said your people are my people and your god is my god. I'm not gonna find as mobile anymore. Well now in the new covenant. Gods people are jesus says to his disciples go. Make disciples of all nations recognizing then but we don't have boundaries We don't have a city where there's a particular building that we go worship at we are the temple. We are though what we are the dwelling place of the holy spirit. I can talk for hours and honestly if you have this is this is such a great introduction to. The doctor did a these issues and he would not want me to do this. But i'm going to do it if not you're thinking like okay. How do you do this kind of work. His introduction what is biblical. Theology is mitt for lay people and it is a great introduction. And if you're really interested in this topic you gotta grapple with his book. God's dwelling presents the ministry of the holy spirit. The old and new testaments telling you. I go back to routinely and m My my own. Predilections and positions are disturbed in disrupted by the consistency of his there. And so dr hambledon. Thank you for joining us. After the fact today thanks for having me. And thanks for your kind words after. The fact is brought to you by the southern baptist theological seminary if you wanna study with incredible professors like dr hamilton head over to bts dot edu and discover why southern seminary is trusted for truth.
Why would you go to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary anymore?
"Ooh Yeah. It's Nice I need to do more shameless promotion I guess you do. If. I haven't seen that you need. To do more of that. Woke up to reform. Reform. Evangelical meet I am met our co hosted by not Matt's Co hosted by the not quite black enough eighty ruthless not at all man I couldn't believe that. Right. Eighty was not allowed in a group because he did not have A. GR- percentage a high percentage of blackness. I. It was crazy I sent out a newsletter about this the other day. I was in this group for months like probably a year more and I never. I. Never Spoke About Social Justice because I knew I'd get kicked out instantly if I did, right So it was like a preaching group, it was a black preachers group and then somebody asked a question about expository preaching I answered and somebody. Noticed my name. And they're like, how did you get in here? You are not black. And I was like, well, you know twenty percent Nigerian. You know that kind of thing and I had like two or three defenders that were like, how could you question his blackness? But then by the end of it, kicked me out I was not black enough. A UK to recover after that. Oh Yeah. I record. So I had a feeling I was going to get kicked out. So I recorded it all live when it happened it was hilarious. I was thinking about that after your shared that it was like why people don't do that. We're not like a man you are so white or your little Tan I don't know if you can hang out in our group out of. Those conversations don't happen that used to happen, but that was back during the racist that was the dark times that everyone. To Note, even get a Tan back then. Well, there was always I I'll never forget I was watching this prison show wants in college I think it was called Oz and it was about this white supremacist gang. In prison and the guy like I guess he got beat up or something and he ended up getting. A skin graft from a black guy. But you couldn't see the black skinny just like he had it. You could tell he had it or no he he you knew he had it but you couldn't tell okay and because of the skin graft, they shunned him even though you couldn't tell like, Oh, you've got a little bit of blocks good scooter you you're not allowed in arklow anymore. That was like that was like the most backwards thing ever back in two thousand, six But you know here in twenty twenty, we're way smarter and we're way more sophisticated. So absolutely. All right. So if you guys are watching wherever you are on facebook youtube twitter, if you want to put a little message in wherever you're listening to this, we will get it but you will not be able to see the messages. If you're on the same platform, I've had some people ask about that before we are also only doing a thirty minute show because my dad's coming into town and I gotta go pick them up at the airport. So we will be Indian, a little early in having a shortage show for those of you listen on the podcasts are on. US right later. So let's just get into the first thing I. wanted to start with with a question from you guys this was on our instagram. Direct message someone was asking he and his fiancee are engaged nineteen years old and they're feeling really discouraged that people aren't Kinda supporting it and he wanted to get our advice in our thoughts on it. It's eighty. Do you have any awards wisdom for young listener? Yeah. Well, I mean listen. It sounds like it's just about the age. It's not about anything else Let's just assume that. Yeah. So if it's just about being too young to get married you know that that really is an unfortunate situation because it's just not true. You know there's there's plenty of people that get married right out of high school and There's no biblical reason why you can't get married right Outta high school. It just doesn't make any sense at all from an age perspective if you're both you know nineteen or eighteen, whatever it is that's a perfectly legitimate time to get married if there's other reasons like you know. They know you better than I? Do I mean I don't want to venture a guess into what other reason could be that you know that might be something that's worth hearing people's advice for but Yeah might advice is that you look look at the scripture like we do with everything is there any reason in the scripture that in eighteen year olds could not get married to another eighteen year old I just can't imagine what that would be right yeah or in nineteen year olds and this guy has a fulltime job I should add. So he can provide right plumber it's a good job you could. Definitely. Make it work definitely can make it work, and again I'm not saying that if there's other things that are going on here like maybe the the woman you're marrying is got three kids already kind of thing, and maybe they're like a little bit concerned about you in that situation like, okay there could be other things I'm not saying that there couldn't be reasons why you might want to take a step back. But, the agent self doesn't seem like there's really nothing wrong there. Yeah. Absolutely. Although if you do have three kids nineteen. Oh that's what I'm saying I'm saying like the other things going on but if it's just about eight in, that's it. I don't really I don't have any advice for like convincing people, but it's just like there's really nothing wrong with that at all. Yeah I. In fact, I'm going to encourage my son's to get married young Yeah. I think honestly forces you to mature yet walk master. Yeah you're going to have a lot more time enjoyment spending with your kids like people have kids older in life You know there's a lot of people say, Oh, man I'm just too old now I can't do to play sports with my kid and do all of those things. That's a consequence of not having kids until your late thirties and such like that. Yeah, and even truth myself I'm thirty five and I have a two year old yen. I mean I still starting to feel it I'm like Oh man if I, have another son. Like I'M GONNA be like in my forties and I'm going back baskin be broken. Well, it sounds like you are in the same page like based just about the same age. We probably started having kids and stuff and I gotta say like, know, there's the myth is, and I I really do think this is a myth that it's fun to be single when you're in your early twenties and you know there's aspects of being single that make it easier kind of in the short term to be single in your early twenties but there's nothing like fantastically fun about it. There's nothing like there's nothing magical about it. There's nothing that that that you won't be missing out on anything. Like I know that's the lie that's the Lai Oh. You know you gotta you gotTa to have your have your fun when you're young and that's just a myth man that's just a myth I've lived it. I've done all kinds of stuff and I've I've I've lived the fast life of God clubs done everything. You know what I mean and there's really nothing you won't be missing out on anything if I could go back, do it all over again I would not waste my time. Being do living the singles life in my twenties. You know what I mean now I feel like it's the equivalent of or maybe like when you eat candy yeah I could taste good at first but right too much of it. You get stomach ache you might get a sugar rush you enjoy but it you know you're not gonna be able to sustain a life. You're not going to be full of joy if all you're doing is eating candy. Marriage and spending with my kids. The joy is like a prime steak. That is FIS. It's delicious. You enjoy it and it's going to be beneficial to you and it's going to make you stronger and grow you in those kinds of things. So Yeah Candy is good like for a while, but it's there's nothing beneficial to it over the long term in like just eating candy. Like you're just GONNA run the problems we're GONNA can't cavities your your health gonNA break down things like that. It's amazing too because candy is kind of similar the singles life like you think it's going to be fun. Oh, great. I'm going to go to the bar could be great. It's fun for like twenty minutes at. That's the same thing with candy to be honest. If you sit there and eat candy for twenty minutes. The first ten minutes are going to be all right and then after that, you're going to be. Feel, you know how it is. The first few bites her fantastic after you're done eating the pound bag Hewlett Oh. Gosh this is gross. Needed a pound bag of skittles. king-size I don't remember what it is. I always remember that I used to love like the first bits of. Skills. Then afterwards, it's like all season same. So what I would say is for the age is really irrelevant to me. It's the maturity level. I. Would Tell maybe to thirty year olds that were engaged that they weren't ready depending on the circumstances. You know I know some thirty year olds they don't have a fulltime job right now. Thanks the government employment benefits unemployment benefits. But I would say that even if there is nothing wrong and you guys have a great relationship and maybe your parents aren't for it maybe your pastors advising against it and might be just wise to wait. anyways there may be something. You don't see maybe there's some things you don't see in yourself. And especially her parents or your parents are not supportive of it. Marriage I hate saying that marriage is hard because that's kind of a negative but marriage is a forging of two people together and that four gene create sparks. It's difficult. It's challenging It's all good. If you're a God's the center and you're handling it biblically and you're seeking him and things like that but you really want your parents and her parents supportive being there for advice you don't want any bitterness animosity or any kind of like where you guys don't see. Each other a break of the relationship or anything like that too. So even if everything's great the relationships good, there's nothing to hold you back. There might be some wisdom in waiting and winning the approval of your of your family's if that is an issue as well. I don't think he didn't say that specifically but So don't be discouraged. You Know God has his own control pray about it skit with get advice and man you're nineteen years old is a whole life ahead of you. So that's my thoughts on that good stuff. All right. The next thing I wanted to talk about and this is driving me crazy. I'm seeing people argue this all the time it's that. The the government goes too far if they treat businesses and churches differently and they're they're they're using this kind of the argument of like the Nevada case where the Supreme Court ruled that churches can't meet but casinos still can me and there's Oh, that's just that's wrong. That's egregious. How can casinos meet and churches? Not Meet how can there be x amount of people gathering for casino but not limited to churches, and it's like the argument is if the churches can't do it, then the businesses can't do it in if the businesses can do then to churches to do it and there's just like. Equitable argument that they're making that the churches and the businesses are the same I. think that's a really losing argument. Have you been hearing that too? Well. That's the big thing. That's that's what big Egos is pushing on when it's fair, which is its own problem. Definitely. But it's not the argument we should be making not even close no not at all. I was trying to think of this biblically and like how do you of express this and I think just from a biblical perspective and correct me if I'm wrong because I kind of just thinking about this today is that in the spheres of authority that we talk about the government's fear, the church sphere and the family sphere that in biblically back in the day business and enterprise and your profession was all under the families fear because it was a family thing you had the. Agricultural you were. You brought your herds as a family. So I would think a biblical case is that the business is an actual families fear even if you work for a corporation that isn't owned by your family, you as the head of household are working to bring in money revenue and capital for your family. So I still think it applies today and the church fears obviously its own sphere the church here. So they're two different spheres of authority and we're just totally missing it and like railroading over the differentiations between at the church cannot be treated like a business it's not intended to right. Yeah and I think that this is especially important and also especially sneaky because I I think you would agree Matt and and I would definitely say that the the casinos shouldn't be closed either like the government should be closing any of these businesses for this you know. So I'm not saying that like we shouldn't be treated in the same in the sense of you know they should be closed and we shouldn't. What I'm saying, but these are completely two different realms of of existence like you said, this fears authority we need to recognize those things and so the argument of of treated in the same completely disregards that they. Both shouldn't it be touched but for kind of separate reasons. Yeah absolutely, and I I'm not like just nitpicking this argument because I don't like the argument and there's better arguments to make its setting up get for future problems. We're going to be losing future arguments because if for example, the government says, Hey, we're no longer going to have in-person meetings you have to order everything online right or the next year, and then they say, Oh, well, we did it the businesses so your Church Hey, you can meet for another year later using your argument you can't say anything you're out of position you lost right? Yeah it's. It's exactly right because. It would not make it any. If you said, okay casinos you're shut down to. The church was complaining and now you're shut down to write like that wouldn't make it better at all. So why even go there? Why even argue that but the thing is though that these people like Russell. More and a lot of the folks that makes that kind of argument they actually do think it would be fine as long as everyone's shutdown equally. You and I and I reference these other things that are open I reference. Abortion clinics Pot stores you know stuff like that I referenced that but not because I want to be treated that way I referenced it because the government knows that you don't have to close they just all about what they want open like if if the coronavirus was the most dangerous thing since sliced bread, the pot stores wouldn't be open. That's why I referenced that not because I want to be treated like a pot store it's because I I'm I'm showing you that you have no close. This is stupid. You, know what I mean. We all can go to the grocery store tomorrow. It's not because I want to be treated like a grocery stores because I'm showing you how stupid this whole thing is right you know what? I, mean yeah. Absolutely. All right. We Got Mike Jimbo saying married at Nineteen as a little encouragement thirty five years later still the best thing that's ever happened I know a lot of people that were married at that age and. And they they all recommend it and I and I sit and listen I'm glad I married my wife. So I'm glad I. I waited you know to get married later in life because I specifically but if I could do it all over again and end up with the same wife, I would do it or wait earlier. I. Agree. The you know just to go back to I know we've kind of already left topic, but I forgot to say this is the objection I. Hear a lot is there's so much changing that happens between your nineteen twenties and early twentieth. Right. Yes, it's true. There's a lot of changing that happens through the rest of your life, and especially as Christians, we are always wanting to change its configuration. We are constantly changing and hopefully becoming more like Christ unless like ourselves. So I mean part being married is kind of getting with it and understanding that you guys are changing and hopefully together towards Christ I also, yeah, there is a lot of changing that happens but the thing is like like like that changing doesn't just go away if you if if you're single or married like it's going to happen. and. So if you're there and you have a wife and God said, it's not good for a man to be alone and and you are alone and you're changing look I'm not saying you can't do it but it's probably better for young man who is changing to be there with his wife to change to to to be there with him. You know what? Like? Yeah I get I. Get that. Yes. There is changes but what does that have to do with anything? Exactly. Like even the changes that I've added marriage being married nine years now I've the changes have been better because I have my wife with me right? Like she makes me better and helps me change more Christ like and become more Christ, like then if I'm on my own going through experiences and changing, it's just it's emphasized its basic. Let's face it like does the changing stop when you get married of course not It doesn't matter. Fifty like right like you're going to be, there's always changes So it's like. Are we expected? Okay we're changing till thirty then we'll get married then we stop changing. And there were never change again and we just sit on the couch and replay our video games and watch the news all day. I mean. We're not supposed to have that life anyways like we're supposed to live a life of faith where we are growing and you know all that stuff anyways. Yeah. It's up whatever whatever you brought up the baptist. So we gotta talk about the Southern Baptist theological seminary stage marriage. You talked about it earlier on your show which I highly recommend if you do not watch eighty rootless what's wrong Where have you been all your life they Did something very strange. They sent they sent out, they put on their website and they expect all faculty and students to sign a covenant and commitment. To basically here. I'm going to read it right here. Doesn't matter when you sent me this I honestly what I called you that it had to be faked like I wasn't really joking that much like I was joking a little bit because of stupid. It would be somebody fake that that's how stupid I thought it was was like there's no way. This is actually real I'm totally let me see it is real. It's so real that I I had I was it's so outrageous. I. Should say I was okay. We can see I'm just going to pull it up like this. Can you tell me? Can you read this? Is. Perfect. Okay Great. So. This is so outrageous that I had to verify with the source where he got it from where the source Scott at from, and then finally I was able to talk about it and share it with people when I saw it on their website because this, if there was ever going to be fake. It would have been this something like this something like this Fisher. Okay. So this is again, everyone is going to be required that works their teachers there or attend their to do this to sign this. And I also heard, they're also going to require them to get tested and bring the results to. Know, you have a choice, no Matt Maggie represent them. Choice, you can either bring your test with you or get tested there. which is a big hip of violation. You are not supposed to have to share any information with anybody but your doctor. A that's interesting. Should. Well I'm not listen I'm not telling anyone to sue, but it would be interesting if it have I'm telling you why not? It's an organization that's not a person. Right? Isn't that what they tell us? It's more than a organization. Never my God. Okay let me read this before we get into any more trouble. Okay. So I'm going to start halfway down says are into the paragraph we enter into this covenant together, and in this season of the corona virus with lives in health at risk, we affirm together that we will follow and obey all rules, policies, advisories, and practices required by the government authorities mandated by institutional responsibility and communicated by institutional leadership. All rules, policies, advisories, and practices required by the government authorities so If. The government comes along and says a You need to shut down they're going to do it and they made a covenant. So they better not break. So so so so here's what I. Here's what I think about this. So I signed a contract that was vague wants an agreement. Vague once and I ended up losing a couple thousand dollars because of it. So I learned my lesson early in life you don't even it was vague enough that. I had a point. They recognize that I had a point. They're like, yeah. But you know, what are you GonNa take me to court. It's not worth. It's not worth it so. This this this this agreement, this covenant is it's like it's they try to encompass everything like okay policies rules. Practices like the questions and then they put the word required in there because I think that they put that word in there so that you kind of make it makes it seem like it has to be like official though, but that's not what it says. It says any practice, any rule any any policy whatever. It's like, yeah any government authority and it's like, okay well, who's. The government authority. Why don't know I mean the Bible says government authorities but doesn't really define it as FAO Government Authority I. Guess He is we pay them and you know he got on the TV the other day dating seventy to wear goggles. He didn't say we needed to but he said that we should and he's in authority and that's a practice So it's like At any time, you could be in violation of this and you have no idea because you didn't read it that way. Right this is a very stupid thing for anyone to sign I can't imagine anyone reading that being like Oh. Yeah. I'll sign that no problem. Absolutely. Be Foolish. You would absolutely be foolish assigned something like this and going back to your contract. I mean that is just common sense where if you ever enter into a contract with somebody, you want to understand fully and have exact details of what you're agreeing to. Especially when it's something in perpetuity, there's no time stamp on this. There's no expiration on this and you know they're already talking about next year in the relapse and things like that is just going to be forevermore whenever the corona virus kickback in which crooner virus, the nineteen, the one, the ten than one. It could be any of them wasn't even thinking about that, but it's so true because they didn't even and it's funny that you say that because I notice they didn't say co Covid Nineteen, which I thought was interesting because that's when you're hoity toity like southern seminary is. Very Hoity toity you that's how you you talk about. It converts actually a lowbrow way to talk about it. It's one step above the corona, the none of it. Yeah. Yes. Exactly, and then the bottom of the barrel is the Rona. So it's like it's like the low Broadway but that makes it even worse. It's even more vague because think about it like like is not is not the common cold corona virus it is so so. Anything that they say to even a common cold you have to you have to do it. You just have to do it and it's like at any point like people always have you ever read the book like I think it's called nine felonies a day. It makes the argument that people every person on the United States commits nine felonies a day. That's how many laws there are federal laws, federal laws, right and so I don't think it's nine, but it's some crazy. Number Anyway, the point is that at any point they can say, Oh, you're in violation of your covenants like why would you sign this? Who would sign this? Who would who would be okay signing this and the and the worst part is that if you break it now all of a sudden not only are you just not only are you breaking the covenants of the seminary but you're also before breaking covenant because they tried to make it extra official by putting that verse in the beginning. Out of context, of course, why wouldn't they? There's one thing they missed though to make this really serious they didn't put Gospel in front of a Gospel Covenant. Gossiping they should that that actually would have been the only the only thing that could have made it more serious and more more solemn solemn Biblical words, Sahlin, that is good and I bring this up. In all my goodness do not look at the comments terrible right now I don't know what's going on. These you look. Themselves, they are making fools of themselves. And I bring this up not because you know it's just a statement maybe they're asking people to sign it an interim as a covenant and it's a theological seminary like they understand what they're doing here. They're not fools. What they I mean. They are fools, but they're not like doing this ignorantly or because they don't get it. and. I just have to ask like who would want to go to a seminary? Yeah. That is doing these kinds of things is making this kind of mistake. Yeah. Honestly. Like I wouldn't even look like I was saying on my channel today I was saying, okay let's say they were more specific and they said you need to do these four or five things to come I still wouldn't admit to it but at least I can understand how someone could as okay. Yeah. I can wash hands and no problem I can I can wear a mask no problem. But this is just open ended. It's just like you would have to be. Honestly you'd have to be dishonest or insane to sign this. Yeah. Because you'd have to know if you're honest with yourself, you'd have to know that. No, I'm not going to obey everything. That that's that's crazy. or You just have to not be able to read properly. or or or you just treat it like you treat a software license agreement where you don't even read it. Through the point is though that's the seminary is this is a this someone made the point the earlier today that said, this is a liability thing seminaries putting this out making sign it. So the liability for anything that happens is on you. Because they told him they they said this what you need to do. And that's almost even worse. Right, if it's that, it's even worse. Yeah. Absolutely as well, and so I don't know how you teach at the school anymore. Yeah. I. Don't know why you'd want to be associated with the school in definitely don't know why you wouldn't WanNa go to school and boy do we ever need a new seminary? Right. These friends of yours man this is pretty her. You're not mine man. Are They I don't know I don't know who they are. They probably are. Yeah or maybe it's on facebook. Go I try to walk in them. It's crazy man luckily, this will not be seen on the show. The last thing I wanted to hit because again, we're doing a thirty minute show. Is this statement that the grace to you guys put out it was on I. Forgot his name. Dang I. had it. Mike. he's the one who put it out. Now, let me get back to it because I had to scroll away. There he go. So he put an issue and he said there's a key distinction that a lot of people missing any differentiates between the Senate issue and the liberty issue with talking about attending churches. And in. The issue I totally agree with the talks about how what we've talked about that. You cannot listen to Caesar to determine if you. Open the church or not again, which is. Got To give him credit for that. That's that's a strong statement and I appreciate that I do appreciate that I absolutely love what they've been doing the last couple of weeks I. Think they've grown themselves talk about always growing right I mean I don't remember ever them talking like this whatsoever. And could be I could just missed it. I'm not saying they didn't do it. I just never saw but then they talk about the liberty issue and I think this is important to talk about as well because they said that elders may decide because of their conscience that the day the deaths, the cases are whatever in their area may require them to close. And I just want some more developed discussion and I love push back even commented on this. I'd love pushback from them to kind of think through this more because the things that they're claiming on the first issue of the the. Overstepping their sphere of authority to tell the church what to do they're kind of doing in the second one with the family because if they're making it like what we've talked about before, if they are claiming that the Church has the authority to tell people not to meet because of health issues we've said that the health issues are with the head of household. If you're sick, you don't come to church. But when there's people that are healthy, then you're keeping them from doing what God is required of gathering together. Right Right. Yeah. No I told you this in in a private shadows like you know the exactly what this guy said. That's kind of where I was in the beginning of this when it first started and then as the information came out and we realize what this was and all that kind of thing you know I've kind of change in just like well actually. You know the church shouldn't be making the decision for you whether or not. You can gather on the Lord's Day like that should be your decision and and the church shouldn't. Shouldn't hold that over on you. So they should make that decision for you. One way or the other they shouldn't say you have to come or you're not gonNA come. And the thing is like the only option for that to be okay is for the church to remain open now. I understand that you might not want to remain open. You might be too scared because of the corona virus but the thing is like, I, don't want him sound callous but like you know heavy is the is the Mantel that you've taken up. You know what? I mean like like what you will not deny that one of the things that God commands elder do to lay hands on the sick. And it's not like if it's not that contagious. You know what I mean right. So so how can you lay hands on the sick if you're not even meeting? Y- Y-. You're not. You're not even keeping your door's open like our the six supposed to know where to go. Like that like how can you do that? How can you? How can you? How can you fulfil your duties if you're if you're social distancing as a pastor? You know what I mean so so like. I, get it I get what he's trying to do there but but especially, in this situation, it's not like. Yeah you're right we we've got we've got to respect the spheres with even the second you know level of this. Yeah. Even with the families and because what's happening is you're taking their decision away from the heads of household and don't. We already have a problem with men not being men and taking responsibility for their am in this country, right? Like at least we need to have that discussion and talk about it, develop it, work through it and use. It as a discipleship opportunity where maybe instead of saying Oh, we're just talking to him church where we actually say, Hey, head of households this is uh, a disease. This is a sickness. Let's talk about it from a biblical perspective in what your responsibility is under God to keep your family healthy and to keep the church that you're going to healthy as well. Instead of just saying it's up to the pastor's their conscience. I just think it's a really great. For us to uphold establish men in the head of the Covenant. Admit I. Know You have to go in a second but I'll admit that I've been a little squishy on this from the from the beginning of coronavirus virus and I know that there are pastors that I've talked to people that I respect very much that were telling me that I was being squished on that and like no, like like a pastor needs to be willing to put themselves in harm's way. And Yeah, they can't force people to come if it's if it's dangerous but they had to be there like let's that's their responsibility. They're the ones that are supposed to be praying for the sick and doing these things and preaching the word like it's it's it's it's a risky job. It hasn't been that risky in the United States for a very long time, but it actually is a risky job and so I, see their point way more these days than I used to I'll admit when I'm squish I'll I'll admit it and I've been switched on this man. I'm hearing you say that makes me think I've been squashed on it too. Could you imagine us being squished on things? Even Eighty Roma's Matt. Williams could be squished on things. Don't Let. Don't let it get to your head. All right well. Thank you for all those who joining in the inappropriate people that I'm about the block I appreciate you. Yes I do too because it actually helps the algorithm when you come it does you guys are really hoping I appreciate it I. Thank You for those sports on Patriarch will look forward in a full episode next week talk to you later God. Bless God bless.
Ep023 Reaching Guadalajara, Part 1
"Welton decrease in peace. Thanks for joining us for today's. On your hopes to Anthony. And it's. With that, let's start the show. Today. I have a very special guest. Dear friend of mine. It's been fun to reconnect with him. Omar is a missionary. He's currently serving in Guadalajara Mexico. And just tell you a little bit about Laura as you get to know him in our time together. Omar previously served as a missionary pastor for five years in his native country of Peru as Sunday school teacher at his sending Church in Louisville Kentucky. which is where we met. He got a master's Master of Arts Degree in theological and intercultural studies at the Southern Baptist theological seminary, and his hobbies include autocracy and playing chess is a joy to have you on the show. Welcome, thank you so much for reminding young. Said for me also to be. What I want to know is. First. How is Gone Lara? Mexico? How how are you doing? How long have you been there? We mean we're coming in Mexico for two years. We come in healing, these state state of Casino Hara for. Guy is a he's a big city. The Metropolitan area. What a Honda because he's in school. is around seven. People. Cecilia city life. Well. Is the second biggest city in Mexico. After the Mexico City is a city. The her mother was things, but also they keep stuff. That's medical, but you see more. Off outside the scene. Has that mix. And in which your primary role there as as a missionary, my primary role in church flooding. discipleship. Training! Wolf local farmers local believers as well. Or goal is to plant churches by just. By himself we WANNA engage me local believers pastors. People ice called to plant a church, so we work within blunder church. Do has much help you for five years, and then I moved away so that person look at parliament's stated has a bust. As the idea. So we talked a little bit about you talked a little bit about Guadalajara. Tell me about the people of Guadalajara. They like! The were here. They're very proud. They'll see. Very proud of city on. This is the SIEWERT. The MARIACHI was born. Really. Yeah Woah. Mariachi the. Kayla the famous three. That came from Hannah. Get their player. He was a list when. There's a little art here there is. A. A couple of seen a movie directors that will Oscar Yamamoto I think the last one. Also From the heart is so was very proud of see. Also The. Cal or sent in one. Two, three or sense. Only now said so this area with a billows bigger area will. He'll makes Mexican by Mexican Bahia include different states in the center. Center area Mexico. In the Americas. Diva he'll is the biggest. And the biggest. And darkest area in the America so like you compare who you Brazil when? There's there's be small towns. There was a place in the jungle with various noblesville. All whistle cease as well. Here? This this includes several states, four five snakes on this meals. So. The or Santosh? Says movie like three point five percents while hottest to San. SAN is very low ANJELICA. Before. By and so the other ninety eight percent. Yeah. The listen very very soon. Capitalism on there is a growing number also of. People that. Did kind of tired of the capitalism amazing. They know Constanza, Salou. Christmas Larry Raising. A cultural. Christian contract. So. We're so. We're even seeing a post Christian culture in. Yeah, we're still seeing a Christian culture. Especially youth young people. Because they thing. Fines their heart was leading Nikolas so they they are. So. They're starting bracing things. But most of the people is very very Catholic. And coaches. So, how is that? A barrier to evangelism. How how do you go about sharing the Gospel with such a large Catholic population? Well We're working with a church. Earth's so we wind latest them. Were with me new easily as well. And so Honestly, we try to use. Different techniques different approaches definitive ways to engage people. like right now for instance we are. We are juicy. What's up? Many people in the familiar. What's up, so it okay so? It's an APP that is mostly used in other parts of the world I know I found out about it when I was in Uganda It's not as big here in America A it's everywhere outside of the United States. And we have. England. Own Mark. To what's up. So we by the way the Bible remark with us. We have Sharon. With. Working with trump, two seven, six seven, so we Showing who he says is so many thing about useless here. I would teach her. Yeah the God. They had no idea what is, so. We legal a little real learning things. Are we start shooting the Muslim. Lady that she she? She was extremely cuddling. But now I think she won't. She homered a wall. who was groups, so we excited on that? And I think that doesn't interest you way to work especially in this is what. We need to be aware of the resources available, so we can use it. Were my best friends. With having A talk with you about. Christ shooting within I meet King for instance before come to a Hara and so i. I go to. I knew that was going well. Hannah soy to facebook loop the say Mexican voters once I grew, I started looking for donor for from this city. Sending message. Hey. Hey, you say the movies who? You have any advice on. Time where we can. Wheel really a French. That the line, so it was nice to meet them burst. With France we still France. Have we have a need for conversations. But that's why I almost saying I believe that this is saw. Either by his michels. So, far three for in different parts of mission, some monsieur say that this is the this is the time for the technology time or Michels I. DO believe that. I do believe that. Stuff. The lowliest specially with people leave seats. Of course nothing going to replace the personal relationship? Face to face by. The survey, too so great to I. Agree in fact I. Know Someone. WHO has a weekly Bible study? over the phone. and. It's not even through an APP. It's just a phone line a conference call and has somewhere around fifty or seventy five people joining his weekly Bible study. Hear Stories of people getting save somebody who I think hadn't been. To Church in something like seventy years attended his Bible study and the Lord Save that person. By the foreign you say yeah. He just teaches a Bible study through through the phone. He he, he's actually terrible with technology. Believe it or not. God is using him in technology so Yeah, so Joe. If you're listening to this. Yeah, Buddy, I'm talking about you. That's awesome. So now, let me ask you this. Why Guadalajara I? Is that something that you chose or the missions board? Say there was a need there. How did you end up there? Will. Be My was I. I come from Peru to the US. Blow Western Wall to. In forty window. And so another time, but then when we went to the process, we find out that it was open. Service positions the Americas before that. We thought it was just. In the Amazon, basin. Several open positions in different countries. So, little. On Me To start praying about the Americas I, really did no one to kick back one. Stunt speaking country. But yeah, the lowest win the things for. Different there was. Denied own your Mexico. I already Mason France in making when Laois in the US and missile conference. So I was. Familiar with the Mexican culture. And Yeah so we so Mexico. Recently for in different areas of fortified places we meet up people that wasn't charts uniqueness a family hobby in years, and we're not talking and talking. On. I fawn. We. We found out that grainy was in area. That is not very well. No I mean I. Wonder Why is no very well known that such a huge area such a low percentage of Jellicoe. Why wasn't? A So yeah, we, we pray here in the Laurel. Got Up artist. And he's a very strategic place by the way is. Whatever happens here. is going to fake. Later on the on the other states are. So, so there's a lot of influence there. Yet. This is the main. This is the main city all about here area. We different states. This is the. One of the things we talked about before we actually started recording. The interview was the topic of spiritual warfare. And that's something I here in in America. We often don't talk about that. We don't think in terms of spiritual warfare. Tell me a little bit about what what is it like as a as a missionary? What is spiritual warfare? How do you recognize it and? How can we learn to fight against it in in the Lord's power? Well know years I will. Story story the. Communist thinking my mind for all these years. There was the man that was He was a new house, and so his star. He was a star cleaning his garden. You have a big yard associates that cleaning so. Hey because. I this. This area. In new. York. Don't seem so so he's cleaning clinically. -Unding one day, he's cleaning sunrise. Are He feels some starts? His leg. He saw it was his name. He read this late. But sees looming. Though seeing snakes everywhere everywhere inside the skyline. LEAP HE WANNA. Leave. Snakes! And so. He went from one extreme to the. Unless something We need to be ocean of we. We Talk We. All Were or for. The ignore it all. Sea Snakes everywhere. But you these reality. This is in the scripture. This entry than the name spiritual worker. Seeing the name actually is in this kid by that the teaching is. So that pitching. You were sculpture by the teaching. Is Very of us that that is our spirit Warford here. When I was serving Peru. was of views to me while I was use, they're just one year healing hundred, but he was much more obvious me. A I was a single. This as a missionary. Town small town or there was no church. There was a little witchcraft. That's how. It was doing things that. Would make sense. When I went into was small town. A new was for his star like I. I sometimes I was looking for that, but I would mean like. Do something like a a Wu. will be standing in from the tau. Letting me go in and the Blue Sky me and. Dealing me, there was nothing I was. On the ground level was. Little saw them alive with them, and the will will disappear. There was like a don't know something like angel or something out. or Jesus something by the will will disappear. Who for! Town I never look for those things, but those things more copying. Unique made me think. Wow, there's no way that I mentioned it was in. Place East Not for God's division in this. So hidden. Mexico Komo expedients things like that, but you know the? Same. You notice. You it. To people morning, good morning both in Mitchell's ensuring that most people many things are you have kiss sake, so they wait you up with retirees. Ny before when you are going to preach hours ninety four British. Do Looking Asleep. Things happen. Not! Kicking prayed, who could be prey on the? We have people explain for us as well? We're really simple for that. We. Just waiting what we've seen the one we start to see so for. The seat so. It's just like what we battle. Our own flesh are sinful. Nature is is rearing its ugly head in some issue or how we snapped somebody, or whatever the case is, and it just a matter of praying, and and giving it to the Lord and moving on it makes sense you fight it the same way you do fighting other things you fight it with prayer and with fellowship and. Word. We will. Them. Let's say the enemies while he's flash than is the world. Creation system abilities against. The owners. Speed Warford allowed in the US. But it money facing the way is more intellectual is more like A. Witness! The sex came from came from the US and. More. Weight one of the other things that you talk about was being refined God refining. What are some ways that you feel gone been refining you or your husband missionary? I think family has being. One of the tools are also hughes to refine mature. When I was single, I will be. DOING MICHELS ABRASION SOLD A. Have available time all the Times. Who I went all the countries threes I was like fooled for things. And they will marry things change. So. So more pressure, but also more fun. They. Have a law. Agents with myself. Really. I look. How much time? For Teaching the Scriptures? Engaging people as it used to have. But I know is that I learned that serving God's militia cy you who also? You know so. And, so he made me under sour because when I was A. And I was single. I will you always pushing to serve outside your home? Now Mary with Yes, I understand that you concern us. I HOPE! So, so yeah, so. I mean. Family the more. Refining Pool I think. In my life so this. Boy. That is so true you know it so often we can. We can lose sight of the fact that you know all. We're so focused on ministry out there. And we run the risk of ship wrecking and destroying the ministry within our very home. Yes, yes. So so that? You're finding the other thing that I want to mention also working with. Cutting, frames are different culture. So funny, but I have many American my some of my bosses Americans so there's. Differences with that. And so. Finding. For me as well one of the things that many countries very or and I have not oriented more relationship. So alertly were timely was. Me More shocked tying literally the stop, so that's something. How can we be praying for you and for the people of Guadalajara? Okay a misprint the for these. Vital situation we having a kind of limbo right now. Weeks behind the US with this situation. So I'll saying that saying that you know. When the the US gave like a coal Mexican like a new money also. A saw. This. Thing that is more poverty right now, and this is going to ensure. There's going to be more over in Mexico after all this for integration bus so. Does, sure fortunately. by Dow. The Mexican. Culture is Benny. Savvy. But he's elated. The high McKee's g be finally, said all together. So Russ! That's a very hard thing. Keep their distance. I? Hope that the virus dust he. Mexico. Nevada very way. Eka Hop. We don't know we have. Three but I'm praying that nothing really by. People. They. They just roker. There's people that are so missions by. By the Economy Husky will really affect. So, the first would be to for these situation Mexico. also praised for us as missionaries. We've got approved sober. Nation, we we. Would make. Food Care Peckish puckish the. This! Zone so, we Brave for safety brain four. Gets seek. On where we're GONNA be doing this on when the district with this food and was tracks as will. Be Asian to join sold those. Lines where we are in the scriptures, so please pray for that. And will the a brother? It was a joy once again to to talk with you and thank you so much for sharing your time with us, but most of all. Thank you for sharing your life with the people of Mexico. For Christ, thank you so much. You Guys Inc you. Anthony PYRO. breer glue protein. Warriors as well. Yeah I. Hope You hope, does your. Brother Love. Love you. Get. Well, that's our show for did I hope you'll join US next time? We spent time in God's word looking at how we can grow our knowledge of. Love for him and our service to. If you've enjoyed we per visit us a grace and peace radio DOT com. On facebook at facebook dot com forward slash recent peace radio until next time I'm your host Anthony Russo and Jesus changed my life.
#107 Tale of Two Brothers
"You love the word of god and that's why you're listening to knowing faith. Perhaps now's the time for you to determine if pursuing theological training is god's next up for you southern seminary invites you to join them for a virtual preview day on friday april sixteenth. Through this live online event. You'll be able to participate in a live. Ask anything dialogue with dr albert. Muller president of the southern baptist theological seminary faculty members will be available to help you explore degree programs and identify. Which programs will guide you toward accomplishing your goals. You will also learn tips on how to make attending seminary work for you and your family with classes available on campus online combination of both earning a theological degree from one of the most trusted name in theological. Education is more possible than you imagine. Southern seminary virtual preview day is live online on friday april sixteenth at one. Pm eastern reserve your spot now at sp t. s. dot edu slash preview. That's s s dot edu slash preview. You're listening to faith a podcast of training. The church burned this cow world. I'm joined by my co host. John wilkin and jt english. What's up y'all hey kyle. Hey kyle is we. Well that was. Maybe i don't know i think brad. Can we get that auto tuned. Hey hey hey. I gotta tell you. I really wanted to be a radio. Dj when we were growing up. And sometimes lauren will tell me she can hear me slip into like radio. Dj voice on the podcast. I think it's just like this is as close as i'm ever gonna get. You really would have been this. You would have been good at that. I think it coulda bid i mean. Obviously it's a dying industry so probably not very viable as far as the market. You know you could do if that doesn't work out for you what you'd be podcast. Maybe i try my hand podcasts. Somebody recently who's like close to me like we're friends was like have you ever thought about starting a podcast and i said i i do have a podcast. And they said wait. What and i say. Yeah i do this and they were like and they were like oh okay. I guess because they didn't put that together. But you follow me on social media and they were like. I just thought you would just wear a big fan of this podcast. Yeah that was my feelings. Were hurt a little bit. I was like okay. Well yeah all right well today. We're covering teleki brothers. I gotta tell you on the show notes that i put together or the ranchi ginger tea. I spelled tail t. a. i l. Initially on this. And i'm so glad. I caught it because youtube would've mocked me mercilessly. If i had called this a tale of two brothers would have been a very different episode. I it'd be a different podcast. Well actually would have been like a lot of other ones. We've done probably probably so wills off but we're gonna be talking today about this incredible story that happens as we jump into genesis chapter twenty three and following and i just wanna admit real quickly here. We're about to cover a lot in this passage. Okay we are going to start with sarah's death and we're all the way to jacob beneath saul so like my gosh basically we're moving through generation and You know whatever time it takes to go for this. So let's jump right in in genesis twenty three. We hear that. Sarah dies And this is you know she's going to go before. Abraham does And that she's given like a to And that team is in the land of canaan and that in my mind really becomes a kind of a a really significant place. Because it's it's really a functional foothold for abraham now on the land. Is it not right. Yeah that's right. And he pays an exorbitant price. You know the the amount of money that's recorded shows that he paid an exorbitant price to establish an ancestral burial ground in the land of promise it is pretty cool and it can be again. We've talked about this before when walk into the story of genesis because we are so we because we are such a mobile culture and generation. This idea can be loss on us. But like to bury sarah in canaan like ginger said is is like he has established an ancestral burial ground and the radius of their movement. Now is going to be tied series at like. This is not like okay. Well we buried. Sarah and you know maybe we'll just you know wonder off to a new land. That's not gonna happen. They they are canaan is going to be the land of promise but now they're kind of bound to kane and now in a way that was not true at the beginning of the story of abraham it film language the beginning of the story. Canaan has promise but now that they'd have some live reality there and sarah's barry there it's now their roots are going down on this land in a very specific way. Do you think this is a picture. Of abraham even though trusting. That god is eventually going to give him this land. He's saying this is this is going to be our so we can put her here and it's not in a sense where we're going to have to leave her. This is home in other words. And we trust that god is going to make. This will be with us here. Yeah i mean. He's built altars to establish that. God's rule is going to be there and now he buys a barrio platt to plot to show that that that the human stake will be there you know. They're staking their claim there as well. And you know you get to the end of genesis and and joseph is saying carry my bones up out of egypt like he wants his bones buried here in canaan because this promise so i do think we see that the introduced here and then carried throughout the rest of the book. Sorry for the spoiler. Alert there guys. No i mean. I think that's really good. So okay sacira dies. She's buried in a tomb in canaan. And when we get into genesis twenty four it says abraham was old well advanced in years and the lord had blessed abraham in all things. And abraham really abraham's kind of looking death in the face that's the way that this wreath and it's like he pulls his servant aside and he's got this request right because isaac this chosen son The god is giving him. It's almost like he's it's not a rams last will and testament but he's making a petition and he doesn't really have the power to carry it out he's telling us serve it like hey make sure isaac goes and gets the right kind of wife. Well not exactly not exactly. he says. Make sure you go and get the right kind of wife. For isaac right. he says. Make sure that you will not take away for my son from the daughters of the canaanites and he basically says he says two times. Don't let is go back ugo Because as we pointed out earlier that's a really nice place with a lot of bills and whistles. And he. I think he doesn't want isaac to go back as we're going to see jacob do right go go there and then not come back to the land of promise. So he sends an emissary. Yeah and then. Emissary goes with a lot of good stuff in this really begins a very long story regarding isaac and rebecca It's It's fascinating because the servant goes. It says it took ten of his master's campbell's and depart taking all sorts of choice gifts from his master and he arose and went to mesopotamia. Now that's a city that that's an that's an area right there that has If you've done any ancient civilisation study mesopotamia that you've probably heard of message tameer before right Because it does have some street cred outpost with local witness as a as a place of abundance And it says he goes a great thought of fondly. He'd spent some time there and he made the it's so essentially the servant goes off And where we find. We find another instance of a well. This story just keeps happening right And we find out that the servant goes to the well he's there he's addressing the daughters and this is before he had finished speaking behold rebecca who was born to beth wool the son of milkha exhume knowing these names guys well. The wife of are abraham's brother. What i mean so look at this. It's like man what providence is. This rebecca shows up at this well and she's kin to abraham right and it says the young woman's very attractive. She had not known a man. She went down the spring. She filled her jar. The serve it runs up to meet her and begins to address her and talk to her. He he's going to give her a bunch of gifts like essentially he's celebrating this woman And this really begins a unique relationship that leads to this person getting back to laban right yeah he had said to the lord if she draws water for my camels then i'll know it's her that's exactly what she does and so he's pretty hype about it but like joe louis here like. Is this weird. There's a lot of weird idiosyncrasies on this story but like this is one of those instances where you're like okay like just god move like this like he's like art god the one who drills what draws water for for the camels. That's the one certainly could be some of the commentators bread Really wanted to highlight what they called abraham hospitality that here. You have. Somebody from abraham's family who basically the exact same thing that we just read about abraham doing several chapters ago when he greets the three messengers as they're going to they're going to have a meal together in here you have a survey going back to his land and he's encountering somebody who's basically doing the same thing that abraham is doing in teaching his family to so this is what's going to make the family work together as a family that has meals together that hosts well even some of the language in the original languages. The exact same of she hurries quickly. She drew the water quickly. Bisbee running all over the place in order to take care of of this messenger. The daybreak chapters earlier. It shows that she is strong and hardworking. She's not just a pretty face The estimates that i read of how much water it would take to water that mini camels is one hundred and fifty gallons so like around schlepping. She had a lot of upper body strength. So yeah so. Rebecca brings the servant back to laban right. Who's her brother and laban's gonna come in in a big way in jacob's love story right. I mean he plays a role ear but we often remember labor not for the role he plays here. But for the role he'll play as a deceiver. Basically of jacob You know But in this story it seems laban is very excited particularly when he sees like the wealth right. Yeah it makes no. As soon as he saw the rain in the bracelets on arms and heard the words of rebecca thus the man spoke to me he went to the man behold they were saying by the campbell's at the spring he's had come in a blessing of the lord. Why do you stand outside. The laban is very eager to extend hospitality to this servant and it against a conversation. And i'm not going to go through the whole thing here unless gen makes me backtrack. I will not as she often does. But essentially what happens. Over the the rest of the chapter is the servant represents abraham and isaac interest on behalf of labor to laban and the family and he he basically promises like. Hey there's going to be this There's a groom for this woman right and we can arrange this marriage and that's what happens. It says that That would abraham's servant heard their words. This is after they talk about everything that god has. And he's been doing. For abraham and the request abraham was made to take a wife for isaac abraham's servant heard their words. He bowed himself to the earth. Before the lord the servant brought jewelry of silver and gold and garments gave them to rebecca. He gave things to their brother to their family. He he says. Send me back to my master and It goes on to say that. Rebecca young women arose and wrote on the campbell's and follow the man thus the servants have rebecca went this way and now we have rebecca and is it being together. We have the meeting. It says is brought her into the ten of sarah's mother and took rebecca. She became his wife and he loved her so isaac was comforted after his mother's death. So the chapter begins on the hills of sarah's death and it ends with isaac taking rebecca's wife. Yeah is there. I feel like gin. Maybe i'm wrong here. And sometimes i feel afraid to say this but like not that i'm wrong. I'm not afraid to say that i'm wrong. But does rebecca as a figure. I feel like does not get the same amount of attention as like sarid abraham or even in as much as the story of rachel and leah with jacob. Heh like. I'm trying to since like does rebecca but also kind of feel the same way but i. Here's what i'm trying to say. Is rebecca at this moment. Fuel transitional characters between the story of abraham and the story of jacob. Is that wrong to feel that way. I i think it's accurate. I mean they the significance of rebecca's. She's from the line of sham right. So that which that's the line that was prophesied would be the one through. Whom the deliver. What tom and so there needs to be a wife who is from that line versus intermarrying with the canaanites so it's very feels The story of isaac and rebecca courtship and marriage feels like a mechanical like. There are more chapters devoted to the story of joseph in this book than there are two abraham or to jacob and certainly i think isaac has a total of like three chapters in the whole the whole book and they're important because they're setting up these bigger themes But yeah i think you're right. It's not. It's interesting that we talk. About abraham isaac. And jacob jacob isaac really is more of a footnote As far as the the bulk of the narrative is concerned right. It's almost like we talk about. Isaac more before he shows up passing then we do once he shows it like we. He's the child of promise. He's the child that promises the child's of promise or waiting for that there's all this drama around then when he gets there. You have the sacrificial mount which is its own thing that we've talked about but then like once you're in isaac's adult life it kind of feels like he's just a conduit to get to jakup who is kind of a larger conduit to get to joseph. It feels like we're making very quick movements. He's a little bit of a foil for jacob to his character is going to like. We'll see that he's gonna pray for his wife is dealing with infertility. And that's in sharp contrast to what we'll see of jacob's behavior and and and and so he's you know there's these themes that we see in the lives of all three abraham isaac and jacob and their visited from different angles In the lives of each of them so I do think one of the most interesting theories i've heard about the story of abraham a of abraham sending the servant to to get the bride is one that i'd be interested for. Jt you may hate it jt. But i'm just going to bring it up there. We go so it is so we know that isaac is obviously a type of christ right But here we see a send. I love it. I know where you're going to love it ends. The servant to retrieve the bride for the prophesied son. And so there's a. There's a really nice play for the functional roles of the trinity. Here in this little story that we see you would go for that. Oh yeah i think this whole chapter of genesis and you can see how old testament is is really about this question. How is the seed going to be preserved. Yeah and we see with sarah dying. And now isaac is here. How is the seed going to be preserved the offspring that is going to come and crush the head of the and bless the nations and so we need a new matriarch. And that's really. What rebecca function as he or she functions as the new matriarch who is necessary to the entire plot line of redemptive history. So it's not. Just a i do understand what you're saying. In terms of the brevity of the the narrative is not as long as some of the others. But but it's absolutely essential that the story be here because isaac needs a wife in order to maintain an offspring in for the purposes of redemptive. History in here. You do see this trinitaria. An analogy of father sending a servant to gather up a bribe for himself through whom he's going to redeem the world. And even you see here when laban is kind of like hey it's not center i go. She says no. No no. I'm supposed to go so she's even expressing in seed form at didn't do that. That's not a double entendre. Not seed form like sede form but she expressing and kind of small form a hope and trust in god's promises undoubtedly she might she heard about this. Jenner stands what roles. She might play in redemptive history. Well not only that. But we've already seen hints of laban's character laban's gonna play the role of the deceiver. So in many ways we see a bride who has rescued from the clutches of a deceiver and delivered safely to her. Groom in call. You just read this verse. The son loves the bright which is perfect. You have almost income small form. A picture redemptive history just in this chapter. The father needs a bride for the sun for redemptive history. We complete at the very end. I just love how concludes those are. The last words of the chapter. Isaac loved her son loves the bride of the servant brought back for him. Yup yeah okay. Well that that. I'm glad you said all that. Because i got to tell you i was not reading it like that and i was pretty bored. So that's really good telling me that you missed larger theological concepts in the midst of narrative. No doubt before and it will happen again but but If sarah died in twenty three what we find twenty five is the death of i mean. Gosh it's the death of the father of israel like it's the death of abraham. i mean. this is gosh. this is basically the most momentous thing that has happened. I feel like in the story. Of abraham so far is this death. I mean just think about how much this would ripple through the rest of the family for sure I mean abraham is the reason all of this is happening. I mean obviously. God is the reason. That abraham is the patriarch. And i don't think there's any way for us to over estimate. Just how consequential this is. It says that he took another wife was qatar. So abraham still had some romance to those old old bones and she bore him zimra. I mean i'm not gonna say all these names on that's what the people are here for. okay zimmerman. Don't do it. thank you She wore a lot of children. And so abraham was also fruitful in his old age And it says he gave all had is it. But to the sons of his concubines. Abraham gave gibson. While i was still living. He sent away from my son. Isaac eastward to the east country. Now now i've got a question about this is This is a significant mention. Isn't it like so. Abraham gives all that he has the isaac he's specifically sins them away from isaac all these other like all these other kids. This feels a little bit like gosh. It feels a little bit like what happened with hagar and with ish mile in that. Like abraham is being whether by divine like he thinks it's a part of the divine promise or it's like incumbent upon him as the as isaac is the child of promise but like he sends them all back basically and here he keeps isaac. I is there something i feel like. We've seen a pattern. Now of isaac basically sending away any other of his children away from isaac. Is there something that we should see here or is like is it a temptation thing for isaac. Is it a competition thing. Well the list there that you declined to read is definitely a list of the enemies of israel. So you know. I don't know that we want to say that it was wrong abraham to take another wife or not But it seems to have resulted in some ben more more trouble for israel but he has the foresight for whatever reason to to put distance between the the line that he knows is the righteous line and that line I feel like i read. That she was potentially not a wife a concubine because verse six says to the sons of his concubine and that she is lumped in with that so that she might have just that. I don't. I can't remember now at this point. If that was what i. It's also possible that he is he's remembering the covenant of promises that through you all the nations will be blessed. Not just my son. Isaac isaac is. The is the the one who's going to receive the ultimate blessing. All those who bless you. Bless those who curse curse. We can send sons away. Give all things to isaac. Send them away with gifts. He's not sending. It says in verse six. But abraham gave guest the sons of his concubines. and while he was still alive you sent them. Eastward eastward isn't important Picture for us is we are supposed to hear. Still genesis chapter three of there being sent out of his place that got his dwelling. This promised land. Where god's presence is being sent eastward but we have to remember that the ultimate picture of redemptive hope here is that it's not just those who are in the land that are going to be blessed but even those who are eastward that god would bring redemption and his covenant blessings to all people not just to israel it sexually interesting. It's fine that you didn't read the names cox. We asked you not to but you do have several zim. Joke sean Midden median shula in isaiah chapter sixty out of all these sons. Yoshi have isaiah prophesying that these sons are going to re eventually come back and receive blessing so i think hear what you have. Is you have a pitcher type. We've used that language on his podcast before. Maybe hyperlink of what god is going to eventually. Can i read part of isaiah. Chapter sixty zero quick now called me to read it. There's no names college. It'd be fun as is sixty Versus one through six arise shine. Your light has come and the glory of the lord shines over you. So here's he's talking about zay on israel and excising. Here's what's going to happen for you. After the babylonian exile for look darkness will cover the earth in total darkness the peoples but the lord will shine over you and his glory will appear before you nations will eventually come to your light and kings to your shining brightness. Raise your eyes look around. They all gather and come to. Your sons will come from faraway. That's key your sons will come from far away and your daughter's on the hips of nursing. Mothers i five then you will see and be radiant and your heart will tremble rejoice because the riches of the sea will become yours and the wealth of nations will come to you so these nations that have been your enemies eventually come to you for six caravans of camels. There's going to be camels here in just a few chapters remembering that about caravans of camels will cover it. Your land young camels of median and isa all of them will come to you from sheba. You've got three sons here. They will carry gold and frankencense and proclaim the praises of the lord. What else does that sound. Like gold and frankencense coming to being praises of god. So you have a picture here of these sons who were born in ways. That are outside of of abraham's original line through isaac but they're going to be the ones who eventually come and give ion or the king of zion praise. I think it's important that we see again. Even in these kind of pro forms in genesis. We see that eventually sons. That weren't really sure why they're named are here. Isaiah saying these things are gonna come back as you bring in. Their sons and daughters is exactly what happens at the birth friends. We live in a fearful and cowardly time. We know bible verses like do not be afraid yet so many of us feel anxious and withdrawn seeking to escape. The notice of whatever scares us the crisis. We face is not a crisis of clarity but a crisis of courage and yet jesus told us that we are to stand with courage in his book. The courage to stand bestselling and award winning author. Russell moore calls us to christ empowered courage appointing the way to real freedom from fear the way of the cross that way means integrity through broken us community through loneliness power through weakness and a future through irrelevance. Pick up your copy of this important book wherever books are sold.
John A. Broadus: Lessons For The Tempted
"This episode is brought to you by the Good Book Company podcast I show where we have lively conversations with authors about church culture and the Christian life go to the good book dot Com slash podcast and subscribe today. This is true until and you're listening to revive thoughts. A man they put a great charge of powder into a gun for the purpose of ascertaining whether strong and can stand the test. or He may do it for the purpose of ascertaining whether it is week. Every episode we bring you a different voice from history in a sermon that they delivered. Today's sermon was preached by John A broadus in the eighteen ninety S in Louisville. Kentucky a jolt, the name John Broadus came up in the news in June during the nation's discussion on race relations, the president of the SBC JD greer suggested retiring gavel has been used and has his name. On it due to his relationship with the confederacy and the SPCA. This episode is not a response to that. The Servant was recorded in May and to be honest. We did not know this was an issue until we started to do research on this person it this bothers you. If you do not want to listen to a sermon by someone like that, we just wanted to make sure you aware of this and did not think that we provide. We're trying to make a statement or a jab of. Of any kind, this is a sermon that he preached on Tation and we think that the content of the sermon is excellent, and we've had a number of people on our show. That had problematic histories George. Whitfield John winthrop gene garrison among many others. The I know you've heard me. Say It on the show before, but we believe that God can use imperfect people flawed people to still communicate good troops in still do great things. John Broadus use a man that was born in Virginia, in eighteen, twenty seven, he was educated at home to a family that was not very wealthy, had enough money to buy books in afford teaching so better off than many most of teaching came from his uncle. There's a story that he was coming home one day from learning schooling at his uncle's place in his dad asked him why he had come early that. That day and brought his said that my uncle has no more use for means, so is dead, went to his uncle, and said what does he? What is he talking about? And his uncle said he's right. There's there's there's nothing left for me to teach him. I taught him everything I now, so we have a situation where he's. He's not a prodigy like a lot of the people that we have on the. The show, sometimes, they just fly and you can just. They have a knack for understanding theology in in thriving. He's not one of those. He's not a prodigy, but he's also not behind. Either at the age of sixteen he was at this revival, and a friend of his, who knew that broadus had never really accepted or claim to be Christian despite having a religious upbringing, his friend challenges them says why don't. Don't you just believe in the promised of this text all that the father gives me we'll come to me and I will in no way cast them out, and that's a very versi challenges. Them said well. You just believe that. He said when he accepted and believe that promise everything changed, and he began to serve the church. He wanted to start preaching. He felt really suddenly just alive spiritually from that moment on. He a man who never went to school. He spent two years as a teacher at that he spent time studying independently on his own. He was really determined to learn Greek by himself, and he said that it was exhausting, but he just he felt called to do it. He enjoy doing it now. He never had a plan really to become a preacher. You really thought about it, but he's like I. Don't want to be a preacher I I wanNA. Be a doctor. Doctor but one day at another one of these meetings at the church, the pastor said something like every sacrifice at work would be worth the work if you help just one sole come to know the Lord everything will be worth it from that moment on and brought us at just hearing. It said like that through tears. He just he's not going to be a doctor now. I think I need to be a minister. Actually yeah. He became the pastor of church. Church there in Virginia in the late eighteen fifties, and he would keep close ties to the school that he graduated from the University of Virginia in eighteen, forty nine. He married his first wife Maria, but about eight years later she would pass away in. He would remarry. A woman named Charlotte, and they were together for the rest of his life. Just before the election, civil war broke out. John Broadus and James Boise and others went on to found the southern baptist. Baptist theological seminary rod has had wrestled with the idea of being a professor there because he really loved preaching initially didn't want to be a teacher because he wanted to focus on his preaching, but he would eventually teach there, and he would find a home doing so because he was the New Testament professor there for thirty six years as kind of just an aside for moment but Joel and I. We both went to Bible College we had teachers that had. Had Been There for twenty or thirty years. Those people just become parts almost that institution, so if you've ever been at a school where one guy is teaching that one class, he has a huge effects abroad us. That was a big deal to be there. Especially at the beginning now brought us does have a troubled history with race relations. As we mentioned at the top of the show, he along with other founders of the southern. Baptist theological seminary did own slaves. Slaves. He served also as the chaplain to Robert. E Lee in the confederate army in eighteen, eighty, two broadest did repudiate America's reputation with slavery, as did the Southern Baptist, theological seminary, and in eighteen, eighty three, he delivered a speech on the confederate cause in the south, and he basically asked Americans to unite to recognize that both sides had reasons for the fight, but that it was time to move on, and it was over, he was throughout his tenure offered many. Many passer ships, professorships, and positions throughout America both in north, and the South and actually throughout the world it would seem that has positions. After the civil war ended cooled, and a lot of people were trying to take to heart. What I think was Abraham Lincoln's words, which was with malice toward none trying to move on from that conflict, and and put it behind them, despite the offers throughout his career, broadus felt called to help struggling Southern Baptist theological seminary get! Get going. He's quoted as saying. Perhaps the seminary may die. Bless resolved to die I. He was determined and over the years the seminary got its feet became more established. She would become the second president of universities. Hurry serving from eighteen eighty eight until his death in eighteen, ninety five, this man who was taught by his uncle growing up right, he became one of the most established prestigious men in Bible colleges in America is true, he would give the beecher. At Yale in eighteen, eighty nine, and he would end up reading textbooks on how to preach. That are still being used in classrooms today. We haven't even really gotten to this part of him yet, but it's actually the most important part especially for us as revived thoughts at his preaching Charles, spurgeon called him the greatest of the living preachers, another man said it has been my fortune to hear Beecher Phillips Brooks, McLaren, Joseph Parker and spurgeon, John Hall and Moody John Clifford and David Lloyd George but at his best and in the congenial. Congenial atmosphere broadus was the equal of any of these men that I've ever heard. This is high praise during a time period with some of the most amazing preachers alive. We've talked about how this era from eighteen fifty to nineteen hundreds, just the the gold standard of preaching and even more amazing. When you remember, he was not actually a preacher. He was a professor who would get called in to preach sometimes and do convention. Sometimes, his style was to study the scriptures. He knew the text. He would prepare some notes Casey. Losses Place. But then he would preach. What's called temporary? Extend Pori. He would preach without looking at the notes and go usually one or two verses of the text. Throughout the entire sermon his sermons were called simple, but they weren't simple, and that they were just not worth your time, he would try to do all the intellectual heavy, lifting the understanding of the texts Greek, and all that beforehand for hours and hours so that by the time he got to preach, he could make it so that even a child could listen to it and understand the deep concepts of God. Now In this sermon? It's titled Lessons for the tempted. We see him talking about temptation in a way that I. Don't think we see too often. Temptation temptation I feel as often looked at as chore or something that Believers Russell with, but broadus almost describes it as a test that believers need to pass have to pass, and he's hopeful that believers will pass that test. Therefore. Let Him who thinks he stands. Take Heed that he does not fall. Notification is overtaken you, but such as is common to man, and God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also so that you'll be able to endure it first Corinthians. Tin Twelve to thirteen. Here is a tax which speaks to our needs, although temptation comes, we do not understand it and are often not prepared for it through. Paul. God is giving us guidance to help us. There are four points suggested by the techs regards to temptation. One recognize here that God suffers us to be tempted. God is faithful. He will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able. Then God suffers us to be tempted. This is a distinction which does not amount to a great deal I confess and yet which is useful and helps us somewhat and relieving the dark mystery of evil. In this world, it is that God permits evil of which he is not the author we shrink back with horror from the idea of regarding him as the author of evil. We cannot believe it, and it helps us a little, too. Thank God permits evil of which he is not the author. He suffers us to be tempted the Apostle James says that God tempts no man. Let no man say when he is tempted I. AM tempted by God for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does he tempt any man? The word Tint as you. All New and the same thing is true of the words in the original language signifies to test to put to the test. Just as when you test a gun. This testing may be done with good or an evil design. A man they put a great charge of powder into a gun for the purpose of ascertaining whether it is strong and could stand the test. or He may do it for the purpose of ascertaining whether it is week for the purpose of destroying it. So human character may be tested with friendly feelings to try it strength, or with hostile feelings in order to show its weakness to destroy it. In, the bad sense of the term God temps nobody but he suffers us to be tempted. We'll be inquired why he does this. We might say that temptation is one of the conditions of existence in this world. We cannot see how it would be possible to live here without being tempted. Jesus Christ himself who was Senlis who came into this world to live, but a little while in to die endured temptation. and not once merely but many times to do what was wrong in the desert. Tipped it in the garden to shrink back from what he had undertaken to do. Temptation is a condition of our existence. Moreover temptation is a discipline. That is one of the reasons why we may say. God permits us to be tempted. Here again. We have the example of Jesus. We are told in the pistol to the Hebrews that Jesus learned from what he suffered is human. Nature needed discipline like ours, and it found discipline intimidation as we do. He learned from what he suffered and thus being made perfect, he became the. attornal salvation. And that ends our first point. God's suffers us to be tempted. Now the second point, we should be afraid of temptation. Let him that thanks, he stands, take heed, so he does not fall. There are two forms of peril against which we need to caution ourselves. It is a Perlis thing to question the reality and the power of temptation. Why my friends, if there is such a being a Satan, if he has such designs against us against God as the Scriptures plainly, declare then what could please him better than that mentioned deny his existence. What could help him more? But I said there were two forms apparel if it is perilous that we should be careless about temptation is reality and its power. It is especially perilous that we should bill a self-confident presumption that we can overcome it. Let him that thanks, he stands, take heed lest he fall. a man who is afraid. He will fall may perhaps take care. But a man who thinks he stands will seldom take heed. The third point in the text is that we must not excuse ourselves when we are tempted, the must not excuse ourselves with the idea that it is impossible to resist temptation. have nothing to do with it, and that temptation comes as a power from outside. US impresses in upon us. We are not that helpless. Temptation becomes temptation to us. Only something within US rises up to meet the allurement. James tells us every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desire and enticed. He is seduced by a zone sole's desire, and only his own souls desire leads him to sin. The power from outside US may be mighty and yet the man is a free man yields to temptation only when something within him goes forced to meet that which comes from outside. But it is so common thing to imagine we cannot help giving into temptation. It is not impossible to resist temptation. At any rate, we do not resist. It is our fault. If we really do not have the power to resist, this may be only as a punishment for having failed to resist and other days when we might have done so. Again we must not excuse ourselves as we are so often inclined to do with the idea that our temptations are especially hard. There is no temptation given to you, says the apostle, but that which is common to man. Yet how very common is the notion that our trials and temptations are certainly the most peculiar in the hardest bear that any poor wretched human being has ever had to face? It seems to be a universal human tendency. You cannot help thinking that people whose character is very different from yours. The surroundings are different. Do not have strong temptations. Of course special four Septem- are Meyer to one person in less mighty to another, but take the sum total, and if we saw things high angel, see them if we saw things as God saw them, we never declared ourselves with this dream. Finally trusting God, we can conquer temptation. For God will help us. The text implies both by Providence and Buys Grace God is faithful who will not suffer to be tempted above what you're able to bear, but we'll. Would the temptation also make the way of escape so that you may be able to bear it my friends. God is often done that for us already. If you have advanced far enough in life to see the meaning of your pass. Can you not look back and see how when God's Providence brought you into temptation? There's also been provided the way of escape. That is what the text implies that he will do for us if we trust in him. The faithful God. If while enlightened Bhai his word and seeking his Grace Ghitis, we meet with temptation. There will be somewhere somehow adore open that we may escape. Oh. Blessed be God that he is controlling all these forces of evil which move around us so that the temptations themselves sometimes counteract one another. The more we are tempted, the more we are safe sometimes. we are sorely tempted. God will not fail to open the way of scape if we have a heart to seek for it and a soul that longs to find it. Not only by Providence, but by His grace, God will help us in our temptation. If strengthened by God's grace, if filled with a hatred immortal hatred of sin, struggle against it, then we will trample temptation underfoot, we will know the discipline of character which comes from temptation conquered. Happy is the man says the apostle, James that endures temptation for windiest stood the test. It will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those that love him. Therefore he said my brethren count it all joy when you fall into temptations. If we trust God's providential help, and his gracious spirit, then we can see how temptation may be the means of making us better and rising up and grateful joy trust, we may rejoice with James knowing that the testing of our faith produces steadfastness. But lead steadfastness have its full effect that we may be perfect and whole lacking in nothing. If any man lacks wisdom wisdom to take these wholesome views of temptation wisdom to find a way out of temptation. Wisdom to see the meanings of temptation and gain. It's lessons. If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all men generously, and it will be given to him. My brethren I asked not today for you or for us that we may have a life without trial and temptation. I would be afraid to ask. For whom the Lord loves, he chastises, and it is the law of earthly existence that we will be tempted. But I humbly ask for myself, and for you that we may have grace to help helpless watch and strive against temptation. Triplet underfoot. And grace conquer it. Yeah for me. Temptation is just this thing we have to deal with in life. It's kind of like a hassle. It gets in the way of stuff. It's a distraction from things we need to do for God right, and you know usually we. We work really hard, and maybe we pass. Sometimes we compromise is just as big thing we have to deal with. That's just part of sinful nature and flesh Lee. Way Right, but broadus kind of provided this other side of it too I really never thought there's this idea of there's actually a reward for withstanding the. The donation, and when we come through that temptation, we are made stronger for we are better believers because we held our ground for God and this idea really shows that even the tough things in life. They serve a purpose in God that. Even though we're stuck so odd to stuck as a human. I can't wait till I'm done with his life. I'm no longer a senator stuck in centers body, and yet brought his gives me this perspective I like well. Yeah, but you can actually get a reward here now by becoming a stronger Christian by withstanding those temptations. To. Thank you for listening to today's episode of revive thoughts. Today's episode was narrated by Justin Rey Justin Rey is a data analyst from north Georgia. He currently owns and. Sound and worship, dot, com, sound and worship dot com is a website designed to point Christians too great and solid worship music. Married to his wife, and Beth, and it has a one year old son named Silas. We hope you enjoyed this episode of revived thoughts. We hope it encourages you and challenges view in your faith. We want to also encourage you if you're looking for more revived thinking looking for more of our shows, we have daily show comes out every day for two to three minutes long. It goes over the. The devotional and thoughts that will help you get started in the morning. We Imagine I our seven different preachers that we work through deal. Moody Oswald Chamber's Jonathan Edwards Richard Baxter and others, and we highly encourage you get revived devos. The revived divas podcast in your APP subscribe to it every single day. You'll have a little thought from them, and it's a great way to get started in the morning. To three minute devotional, just Kinda Start Your Day off. Absolutely this is. This is revived thoughts. This episode is brought to you by the good book. Company podcast a show where we have lively conversations with authors about church culture and the Christian life go to the good book dot Com slash podcast and subscribe today.
After the Fact: Judah, Tamar and Levirate Marriage with Dr. Dominick Hernandez
"Welcome to after the fact in knowing faith mini episode where we look to take a big question and address it in just a few minutes. Typically the questions we consider will lineup with our larger topic for the season and that is certainly true for our time. Today we're discussing genesis. Twelve through fifty unknowing faith. This season joining us. Today is dr dominic hernandez. Dr hernandez is an assistant. Professor of old testament interpretation at southern seminary. He's also the director of spanish language programs southern seminary where there are currently over six hundred sixty students studying in spanish at the seminary. That's incredible i. I am so pumped the here. This he is also the author of the book proverbs pathways to wisdom dr hernandez welcome to after the fact. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having. It's a pleasure to be with you. I am thrilled that you're here. So here's the big question that we're exploring today. How does understanding leverett. Marriage help us understand. The story of judah neymar well. That's really interesting that you'd put it that way to be honest with you. So let's go back to genesis. Thirty eight okay. Genesis thirty eight. The time of the patriarchs. We read at the beginning of the chapter. That judah leaves his family and he goes into canaanite territory. Now just pause there for a second are sort of torah or pentateuch monitor. Should going and we think wait. A second. favorite marriage doesn't come until many many years later with moses so what we end up seeing in genesis thirty eight does not exactly the leverage mar live right marriage that we see come later. In the tour we see sort of a predecessor to it was eventually. That's kota fide. Later on and maybe we might even say not predecessor because the narrator in genesis thirty eight. Lets us know that it's not very good. What happens there how that situation is handled is not handled very well. So when we're thinking about trying to make heads and tails out of this. Maybe the audience doesn't even know what like a leverett marriage would have been. Maybe you could just say a little bit about what was that. That was going to come. And how is this a shadow of that wonderful. So in deuteronomy second telling of the law chapter twenty five we read of this ancient israelite institution in which if someone if a man dies. His brother was able to take the man's wife and have children with his brother's wife to raise up seed for his brother's name. Now that is came on later to be known as leverett marriage Coming from the word 'love' which is latin word that means brother so it's not hebrew. It's it comes from and immediately as we read. This are weirdo of monitor. Should be just sounds weird to us. It does relate a second. What do you mean the brother. What's what's happening here. So here's what's happening here. In june in genesis chapter thirty eight we read of a scenario. In which judah. Mary's has three children his wife dies. His eldest son is married off to a woman named tae mar. She's wicked in in the eyes of the lord. That is judas son. He is wicked in the eyes of the lord the lord puts him to death and then the second son. His name is onen key takes his older brother's wife. Her name is tamar. He takes his older brother's wife and we see something like the custom of leverage manage happening there in which the brother takes the wife of the deceased brother. Okay that sounds weird towards this is the. This is the story that we skip in the bible when it's eight thirty pm and we're too tired to explain the children like we're skipping genesis thirty eight and there's nothing be right. Well well at the beginning of our conversation. I said well interesting that we'd frame it that way because we actually don't have moses law of the lever at marriage doesn't come until significantly later moses's data to at least a couple of hundred years after the patriarchs. So here's the thing is happening here since. We don't have that moses that the mosaic law and the mosaic law sounds weird to our ears anyway. We have to go searching around in the other areas of the by one in the ancient near east to figure out. What's going on here. Is it random that judah judah would just say oh hey Own and take your take your brother's wife and nothing in the bible's really random that a lot of the things that we see on the pages of scripture reflect what may have been going on in the ancient near east beyond the pages of scripture. That's precisely what we see here. So in in the bible we have actually in the ancient near as there were other law codes right there was everybody's probably most familiar with the law code code hobbies law. If you could say that ten times fast you have won a million dollars. How mugabe's law code right and there are certain sections of hammurabi law code that overlap with areas of the bible. Well we also see that. There were law codes from from syria and Low codes from Hittite law codes from asia minor. We see that there were other law codes in in in in in the assyrian law I'm sorry what i meant to say. The reason why both those up is because in both syria law code in code as well as a hittite law code we see something like levirate marriage we see something precisely. it looks very similar in those law codes. We see that if a man married he died his brother was to take the woman to raise up offspring for his brother or something similar. So when when judah gives tamer to a son it's not completely out of the blue. This is something that was being practiced already in the ancient is that we see through these other law codes. The question is why would ancient israel a adopt this right right. We we see. We see judy doing this. But why in the world that ancient israel than adopt this well. I'm glad you answered that question. So there are a couple of things that we have to think about As as it relates to genesis thirty eight and levirate marriage initially genesis. Thirty eight is a very very clear. Depiction of judah being in a position of of of power and Judas family taking advantage of really a helpless person remember tamar was part now of judas family and not marrying into or having offspring by that family. she was not really part of the family anymore because her husband had died but she could no longer go back to her father's house really be given away in marriage because she was no longer virgin. She she could. She was in a state of limbo and with judas says he says. Hey i'm gonna give you my son but the off but the the the narrator tells us he edition of doing that no way. That wasn't going to happen. So he's he's he's he's basically taking advantage of his situation and using her to do whatever he wants with his his children instead of providing for her. Really this in this scenario. That's one thing. The second thing is is owning not only takes advantage of taymor but he also does so physically. He takes advantage of the situation but he also does so physically so we see that taymor is being taken advantage of in so many ways by judas family in genesis thirty eight. That seems to be what we're getting out of the ancient near east this woman. That is other engineer. Eastern law codes. This woman becomes property of the men and she's passed from the father to well basically the father. The father commands that she can be passed from one son to the next That's how how it worked. But what's really interesting. Is that deuteronomy twenty five presents the ancient israelite custom in a significantly different way so whereas this is still really weird to us. If you look at deuteronomy twenty five we read that it becomes the right of the woman in this context to carry out or two we can say enact or to compel the men to follow through as lever marriage right so if a man doesn't want to do it then she can hold him accountable in front of the elders at the city gate so we end up. Seeing in ancient israel is not just that this woman becomes property of the men. That's actually not what we see. Ancient israel as through the lever at marriage custom will up seeing that the the woman is in a position of authority here and she can go and hold them accountable for Essentially raising offspring for his dead brother. That's fascinating so what you're saying. Is that in genesis thirty eight. We're not really seeing what the The levirate marriage that we're gonna see deuteronomy. We're seeing something. That was kind of par part and parcel of ancient near eastern custom and judah as just kind of adapting that in a wicked way or at least he's mirroring wicked practice whereas the mosaic law is going to reform that practice and provide greater dignity and independence and in a very legal way for the woman in question with the mosaic law. Eventually does is it. Takes a practice that was being that was coming to pass or that was happening. The ancient series and it regulates it in such a way so that the lowest and the weakest people in society could not be abused an an an a a widower in this context tale mar and in that society. Not being a virgin not belong to her father's house but also not having children people to care for her when when she when she grew older That person was in essentially in limbo. If she did not have she didn't have family and so the mosaic law does it says now the woman can hold that man responsible so regardless of what the sort of the x factor the yucky factor that. We feel when we think about this. We end up seeing in the mosaic law. At least is the fact that now people that are vulnerable cannot be taken advantage of. It is her right now to say he has to do if she wants to. The ideas that i mean all implied i think in this law is that she does not have to but but she can hold them accountable in front of the people at the men at the city gate dr hernandez that was fascinating. I told you at the beginning of this. Listen i know nothing about this story and leverett marriage and now i can say i know a little bit more and i'm so grateful for you jumping on the show today. The fact is brought to you by the southern baptist theological seminary if you wanna study with incredible professors like dr hernandez in english or in spanish head over to sbs dot edu and discover why southern seminary is trusted for truth.
#122 Father Abraham
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Reserve your spot now by going to boys college dot com slash preview. Boyce college will cover your meals and up to two nights of hotel lodging for just $25 per person. Registration is underway now at Boyce college dot com slash preview. This guy really enjoyed my co host and wilkin and JT English, good afternoon. Hello. Hello. Good morning, good afternoon and good night. That's Truman chef, right? Good morning, good afternoon good evening and good night. Yeah. JT. Class. Hey guys. Classic movie. Thank you. We got to come up with another intro. You're just like sitting there mute. You just stare at this green. Okay, I mean, I feel like it's the same thing. It's like I want you to I want you to want you to start with a good morning Vietnam. Can you do that? No. No. My gosh. Okay, we might have to have engineer Brad cat that out. All right, JT, why don't you go ahead and do a dry run right now? You open up the episode. I'm not prayed up for this Kyle. I'm not ready to do this. Oh no, no, no, no. In season it out of season, JT. Yeah. Kyle says hours in prayer before. Does the intro? Yeah. Yes. Well, before I hang out with the two of you, I should spend hours in prayer, though I do not. And the lord continues to test my patients. But here we are like a dog returns to his vomit. I have returned to another episode of young faith where I'm sure my appearance will be besmirched. I'll be compared to a pug a bald baby. All sorts of stuff. Kyle. I got an idea. Why don't you tell people what you've been working on? Well hold on. You and I you and I have something. We're working on this. Wait, what? Yeah, something awful offline. How do you feel safe? We've been prepping our pitch. It takes a lot of work. We're getting it set before we invite you in. Yeah. Wait, what are you talking about JT what's working on? Talking about like the karate krav maga stuff you had in Kyle. Jiu-jitsu. Yeah, yeah. I don't want this to come across like I'm laying down an open challenge for our listeners. But yes, I have been. I have been starting to do some boxing classes. Okay. Some Muay Thai, some jiu-jitsu classes. So I'm gonna be honest. Kyle Kyle sent me a video if I'm doing this in Kyle. You look like you know what you're doing. Hey man, I'm working hard at it. I'm actually serious. You look like you could be really good at it. I'm really proud of you. Thanks, man. It's been a lot of fun. Sending JT a video is an act of trust. That's really sweet. It's true. It's true. That it was an act of trust or an act of insanity. I don't know, but the guy I told JT this, the guy in the video was being very kind with me. He's like an Egyptian semi pro boxer who boxes out of this gym. And he was being very gentle with me. And I appreciate that. If you ever listen to the episode, Marat, thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you for your generosity of spirit. That you did not kidney punch me 15 times. Do you guys actually hit each other hard? When you're sparring with somebody, you kind of tell them ahead of time like what level you want to go at. I typically like Thai food. Yes. It's a lot like people for real though. It's a lot like that though. You're like, you're like, okay, hey, I want to go at this level or this level. Level three spicy. Yeah, and anyways, so it's been a lot of fun and I still don't want to fight JT, but, you know, I think my odds against gin would be pretty good, you know? Hexa. But listen, there's plenty of other ways we can fight JT, that don't involve actually hitting him for the record. But for the record, ball babies are my favorite. I have four. That's the cutest kind of baby. And so it's said with affection. Now none of them had weird. Baby pugs. They're that's the dream. That's the dream. Well, look at the time. Look at the time. Today we're talking about good old father Abraham. He had many sons. I am one of them, and so are you, so let's just raise the lord. And right hand. Or are we sons of Abraham? Who knows? We're going to find out today on this episode. So stay tuned. To do that, we're going to jump into Romans four versus one through 8 last episode. We had a great discussion with doctor Michael Kruger on sin, the law, righteousness. If you missed that episode, doctor Kruger has been on the show now twice. Both episodes I would say are worth your time. So if you've missed that episode, go and check it out. Today we're going to be looking at Roman's four one through 8. And if it's okay with the two of you, I will read this passage. I would love for you to read it. See what you love that? Are there any big words? Okay. Let's just go ahead and jump right into this. Thank you. What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scriptures say? Abraham believe God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Now, to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and who sends are covered. Blessed is the man against whom the lord will not count his sim. So here we go, we jump in and we get another one of those rhetorical questions right out of the gate from the apostle Paul. He's presuming an objection. And it's a similar objection that he presumed in Romans three, which is he has said some things at the end of Romans three, and he is anticipating that the Jewish Christians might go, well, what about Abraham, right? Isn't Abraham super significant? Just like he was presuming in chapter three that they might say, well, hold on. We're circumcised. Don't we have a unique advantage? So Paul does this, we've said he does this over the course of the letter. He anticipates an objection and now he begins to preemptively respond to. Keep in mind, Paul wasn't reading this letter to the church in Rome. Phoebe was. She's out there. She's reading the letter. So Paul is having to in his writing, anticipate that having said what he just said, the audience might go, hold on a second. Abraham, question, Mark. And so he begins to deal with that. The church hears this and goes, what about Abraham? So let's just pan out here and let's not presume very much. But what role did Abraham play in Israel's story? Like, why is his name being invoked here? Yeah, well, Paul's doing something similar to what we see in hebrews, where he is like, I know. I know who you think is awesome. Let's talk about how the lord regards him. And not only that, but the Jew would see themselves as Abraham's offspring, meaning that they had special status before the lord. So he's going to take them to the Hebrew of hebrews, so to speak. And point out to them, the flaw in the way that they're thinking about things. Right, because if he can make his case through Abraham, it's a pretty it will carry a significant amount of weight among Jewish Christians and gentile Christians by way of that. Right. Right. Because Abraham played it really significant role in being the father, not just the forefather according to the flesh, but kind of the covenant head, right? The covenant head of God's covenant of grace. Well, yeah, they believe that they're chosen in Abraham. And so then the question of how Abraham is chosen becomes a vital importance because then, you know, it just following out the logic. If this is the way that Abraham has saved, then it would also be the way of Salvation for those who come after him. Right. And that's exactly what Paul does. He pulls Abraham into this conversation on justification. I mean, the next line inverse two for if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God, for what does the scripture say? Abraham believe God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. So Paul is saying here, Abraham was not justified by works. He was justified by virtue of believing in the righteous God who gives to Abraham his righteousness. He counts his righteousness. This God's righteousness towards Abraham. So he's saying to the Jewish Christians, hey, it's not just that you aren't justified by works. It's that Abraham wasn't justified by works. That's a big point to make. It's a big point, and it'll come it'll become an even bigger point because it will, you know, it's ultimately no one is justified by works, except for one. And that's Christ. And so I do think it's important for those who perhaps missed our tour of genesis to know that this quote, Abraham Bolivia is credited to him as righteous as this genesis 15. It's what is said of Abraham immediately after the promise of God in the covenant is given to him. So it's a forward looking belief, like God says, I will make you descendants as numerous as stars. I'll give you a land. This is the whole thing. And then it says that Abraham believed this. So he walks by faith and not by sight, right? And that faith is the thing that is what brings him into right standing before the lord. Yeah, is this trust in God? God's provision God's plan. God's character, God's righteousness. Again, this is heavily reliant. I think this passage and understanding it is heavily reliant on a multifaceted picture of righteousness. If you're viewing righteousness is just moral purity, which God has perfectly and Abraham needs desperately that it lacks some of its punching power. Abraham's belief in God is not merely that God is better than Abraham, though that certainly true. It's the belief that God is going to be covenant to be faithful to the end. He's going to be righteous. He's going to be he's going to fulfill his promises. I think a lot of times we've talked about this already on the podcast, but this is, I think crucial for understanding polls concept of righteousness in Romans is that righteousness is not merely your bad, your unrighteous, meaning you've disobeyed God and now God is giving over to you the perfection of his own righteous obedience. No, he's giving to you covenant faithfulness and fidelity, though you don't deserve it. And 'cause that's what Abraham believes in. God's telling him, I'm going to give you a land. He's selling him all the covenant promises and Abraham takes God at his word. This is fundamentally different Abraham's reaction in genesis 15 is different than the other human representative, who has already come before in genesis, which is Adam. Adam does not take God at his word. Does not trust God. Does not believe God's words, but Abraham does, and he's righteous, Adam does not. And he's unrighteous and gives to us that unrighteous nature. And not only that, but I would imagine that the Jews had a similar problem to one that we can have of romanticizing the people who were heroes of the faith, right? And when we find Abraham, in genesis 15 with these words spoken over him, I love that the way the story is constructed is to show us that already at that point, Abraham has demonstrated that he's a law breaker. He has not been above reproach at that point in the story. And he will continue to demonstrate that. And so I think there's a bit of a gentle reminder here that direction as well. Now, first four, we get this interesting. It's basically like Paul gives us a word picture here. Now to the one who works his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies then godly, his faith is counted as righteousness. So Paul Connor gives us a like an analogy. He's like, listen, if Abraham had worked for righteousness. If he had done something to merit righteousness, the righteousness would not be a gift. It would be due. It would be wages. It would be what he deserves. And yet this righteousness. And this is, I don't think this is the first time we get the mention of gift in Romans, though it might be, but over the last JT and JT, I don't know how familiar are with this or Jen. If you're familiar with this, but over the last decade, there's been a renewed interest in Paul's use of gift language in relationship to grace and Salvation. JJ, are you familiar with Barclay's work on this? I actually just finished it. Yep. Okay, so I gotta tell you, there's a listener. If you're looking, this is not something that I would tell you to do if you're looking to make your first step or foray into study of Roman. So please, I want you, the conversation JT and I have about to have is more one of those exploratory conversations. But I wanted to do it on this episode because in Pauline scholarship, Barclays work on Paul and the gift has been very significant. Oh yeah. The last few years. And JT, I don't want to misrepresent it. But I just give you if I could just maybe rattle off a little bit. We can talk about it together. Go for it. So one of the things that Barclay has challenged the understanding of when we think about Paul's conception of Salvation and grace is that grace should be seen as a gift. It's important to understand that grace and gift share like a Venn diagram. Yeah. There's a lot of there's an overlap. Even in the actual Greek words that are used. And so Barclay is saying, hey, he in court to Paul's conception of grace is this idea of gift. And he says, a lot of times when we read Paul's words about grace or gift in the New Testament, we think in western terms of gift giving and gift receiving, which has a huge emphasis on the unconditional nature of gift giving or gift receiving. But he suggests that maybe we have unhelpfully imported conceptions of gift and grace that would not have been would not have correlated with how the ancient near east and does not currently correlate with how much of the eastern world thinks about grace and gift. Meaning, unmerited grace would be different than unconditional grace. And that unmerited gift would be different than an unconditional gift. And the way that he distinguishes here. And again, I'm giving you like a hatchet job version of one of the most significant New Testament monographs in the last ten years. So I just want to be really clear. If you're like, if you're familiar with this work and you're going, well, Kyle, you know, you're forgetting a pin D.C.'s C I'm leaving it out, okay? But the idea here is that unmerited would be you could not earn it. You could earn it. It's undeserved or Barclay will say it's incongruent. Yeah. It's incongruent, meaning it doesn't line up with what you have done. It's disproportionate, right? And that we should understand grace and gift as not unconditional as maybe not the right word because once we have received this grace that we do not deserve and we can not earn, it is supposed to have an impact on us to wear having the way the way I try to tee it up for our church when I was explaining this is that it was this. It's unconditional, but it's not without hope for impact or reciprocity. Reciprocity, I think, is the key there. That was what my biggest takeaway from the book is that a gift giver in this context would assume some sense of some sense of reciprocity from the one who's receiving the gift. And even that reciprocal response or impact is also going to be incongruent. He's in no way saying there's therefore a payback or you're trying to demonstrate that you've been a good investment based upon what God has given you, but that there would be a sense of, oh my goodness, look at this gift that I have received. I am now involved in a reciprocal relationship with this covenant keeping God, which should mean that as an impact on the way that I'm living in light of who this guy is. Exactly. It's like God, he gives us grace so that we can give ourselves back to God. That's right. He does it in an incongruent way. Yes, yes, absolutely. He gives us righteousness that we can not earn in order that we may then live righteously. That's right. So I think this is actually really, really helpful because it does get at some of the tension points even in policy theology and in the letter to the church in Rome. And I think Paul trying to address them. You see this tension even between Romans 5 and 6, Romans 5, their forces, we have been justified by face, faith. We have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ. Roman 6 one, what shall we say then? Are we to continue and send that grace may abound? By no means. Paul's not saying grace isn't enough to cover our future sins. He's saying if you have received grace, the hope and the intention of now living in it is that you'll give yourself back to God and righteousness, right? Yeah. There's two passages that come to my mind when I think about this bark like spend some time looking at these as well. The first is galatians chapter three where Paul is right into the church in Galicia and basically asking the same question but responding to it a bit differently, which might be helpful for us here. He says in glacial chapter three verse three are you so foolish having begun by the spirit? Are you now being perfected by the flesh? So he's asking the question. You've begun with this gift of grace, which has come to you through Jesus. You've been you've begun by the spirit, but you're now saying, well, you actually also need to be participating in works of the law, flesh, specifically circumcision here. And he says, did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in the vein in vain? Does he use supplies the spirit to you and works miracles among you? Do so by works of the lot or by hearing with faith just as Abraham believed God, this is our passage from genesis 15 versus 6, I believe, just as Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Know then that it is those of faith and I think that's where he's expecting some of this reciprocity who are demonstrating themselves to be sons of Abraham. In the scripture for seeing that God would justify the gentiles by faith, preach the gospel beforehand to Abraham. Every time I read that verse my mind blows up a little bit at the gospel was preached before hand to Abraham saying, and you all the nations should be blessed. So then it is those who are faith. They are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. And the other passage I want to bring, I want to be sensitive to our time here. And this is a question for you. I did not do any study on this. So this is, I just wonder, you make so many good connections between passages. When I first read Roman's chapter 6, I'm sorry, Roman's chapter four verse four. Now, to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. Can you guys guess what other passage came to my mind? Matthew, gosh, what is it? Chapter 20, the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Yeah, that's good. Do you see any parallels there? Oh, absolutely. Trying to teach some of them out. If you think you can. Remind people, what is the parable of the workers in the vineyard? These guys have been contracted to work all day, they're going to get a Daenerys. Throughout the day, what happens? Yeah, so they come at various times during the day. And then at the end of the day, they all are paid the same way, even the ones who work to full day. And so there's a lot of anger about that. And this is exactly what Jesus is addressing because he's preparing the hearts of his listeners for the welcoming into the family of God of the gentiles who are late comers to God's goodness. But the reality hiding behind that parable is that the Daenerys is what was required for daily bread. It was what fed a laborer's family for a day. And so if the one who waited faithfully all day long to be called I mean, you think about day laborers, even now, you can pick someone up to do work for you at 8 a.m., but there are still people who are sitting there eager to work at 5, you know, and if you pick them up and they labor for you, they're not going to be paid for the hours that they waited. But you pay them. You could pay them a fair wage that supports them for the day to honor the work that they've done. So Jesus uses the parable just to say, why would daily bread be withheld from the latecomer just because he's a light comer? Yeah. JT, I had never considered that connection, but you're right, though. Now that we're hearing about, I wonder if that story is in Paul's mind even in the phrasing of this because I think it's a great picture of that incongruent. Exactly. And gift, I mean, if you've worked an hour or 20 hour ten hours, whatever less than your colleagues, but you're giving the same amount. The first thing you would do is say, that was a gift. And it would also tie you and bind you to the gift giver, not in a way where he thinks or strings attached. He's not saying their strings attached here. But the mode of now would be is the person is offered me a gift. I'm now in a relationship with that that binds me to him. Today's episode is sponsored by the Christian standard Bible. The goal of the CSB is to be faithful to the original languages without sacrifice and clarity, all the while maintaining both accuracy and readability. With beautiful designs and featured bibles such as the CSV, she reached truth Bible, the CSV study Bible and the CSV Holy Land illustrated Bible everyone from adults to teens the children can find a CSV Bible that they enjoy. Find your Bible now up to 70% off, learn more at CS Bible dot com. 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I want to move on to verse 6 here because if it wasn't enough for Paul to invoke Abraham's name, it's almost like he's like, okay, I'm going to really double down on trying to make my case here. And he brings in another name. It says in verse 6, just as David uh oh, here we go. It was like, I mean, just think about that, though, like, invoking Abraham is invoking Israel's covenant head, invoking David is invoking the king who gave him the land. You know, or basically gave them the presence of God that helped them start to move forward as settlers in this land. I mean, to drop David's name here next to Abraham, the only one that's missing would be a trifecta here would be Moses. And if you were going for the big four Elijah, like if you had those four in the mix, these are two of the four on Israel's Mount Rushmore, in my view. And to put David in here, is this say like, listen, not only was this something that Abraham received, it was something that David saw. He talks about it here. He says about the one whom guide counts righteousness apart from works. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and who sins are covered. Blesses the man against whom the lord will not count his sin. So, in many ways, Paul gives us a picture here of some of the nuts and bolts of righteousness from the perspective of David. I mean, basically here Paul says to be righteous is to be blessed to be blessed is to have one's lawless deeds forgiven since covered and that the lord will not count your sin against you. That's a lot of connections made really quickly. Well, and again, we should see those indented versus and go, where is that from? Because this is one of the instances where Paul is quoting from the psalms that's particularly interesting to me because when you turn to some 32, which is what he's pulling from, you find that the portion that he's quoted breaks off in the middle of a phrase. And so that's like, that would be like if I quoted half of the first sentence of the Declaration of Independence. I would be indicating that I expected that you knew the whole sentence and saying that. And so if you look at some 32, what he's quoting from, it's first one and two. This is blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, who sin is covered. So his memory is serving him really well, right? Blessed is the man against him, the lord counts, no iniquity. So that's basically where Paul stops coding, but here's the end of the phrase. And in his spirit, there is no deceit. You know, and you're like, wait, what does that mean? Wait, are we talking about Christ? But no, what he's saying is and there's three carries it out, and he's expecting that they would know the next verses. For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away. Through my groaning all day long for day and night, your hand was heavy upon me. My strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. And then here we find out what he's not to be deceitful about. I acknowledged my sin to you and I did not cover my iniquity. I said I would confess my transgressions to the lord and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. So this is a prayer of confession. It's about repentance before the lord. It's not. Because you tend to read it just the way it's here and you're like, oh, yes, lord, that's a blessed person who's described by that. But what he's really implying here is that we're blessed because when we confess, God's great gift of mercy is, therefore us, that the righteousness from God stands waiting for us. So he's not calling David out in this instance as an example of lawfulness. He's actually pointing to him as an example of lawlessness and restoration. Yeah, that is absolutely crucial for understanding this. You know, and I think one of the things that Paul has that's implicit here is that by nature, we are not blessed. In nature, we are cursed. That's what he said in Romans three. By nature, we are under sin. We are cursed. We are in righteousness. And yet, by grace, by the work of God's great gift, we can be blessed. We can live the blessed life of one who's lawless these are forgiven who sins are covered against whom the lord will not count. This reminded me of some one 30. O lord, if you and Mark iniquities, who could stand for good stand. But with you, there is forgiveness that you may be feared. That perspective of the lord is not keeping count of the sins of his righteous people. Which is, again, a part of the message of justification is not and he's gonna get into this explicitly in 5 and 6. But he's already building his argument here, which is this. The good news of justification is not God as a divine at your sketch. He doesn't just look at your mess on the tablet and just shake it up and forget it. So you can create a new one is that he paints the picture of Christ, righteousness over your life and you can't do anything to deface it. That you can't. He's not gonna count it. It doesn't matter what you do any longer. It will have consequence. But what it won't do is it will not undermine the righteousness that you've been given in jeans. And that's a much stronger view of forgiveness and justification than just, yeah, you know, God is going to look past your brokenness. Don't mess up again, though. It's that God's never gonna count your said. This points back a little to our conversation we had and we were in Romans three. This question of living in the fear of the lord. And if we're going to remember God's faithfulness, which is something we're called to do over and over again to remember his faithfulness to us, the way that we remember his faithfulness is in relation to our unfaithfulness, which means that though God does not count our sins against us, there is something good in us counting our sins against him. And in other words, the one of the ways that we count our many blessings count them one by one is the same as the song says, is to count our past transgressions and celebrate that even that the lord has taken care of. Even that is no longer held against me. And it's when we begin to forget, again, that enslavement that we came out of, that that's when we begin to presume. So I always just like to remind Christians because I think some Christians want to say Salvation means I don't have to think about my former sins. Now, on the one hand, you don't have to think about them the way that you did before. You don't have to think about them as a weight of guilt that lies upon you. But you should think about them with deep gratitude because they show you the high and the wide and the lung and the deep of the love of God in Christ. That's good. That's great. It's good. And a great place to land our discussion today. Listen, if you are enjoying our journey through Paul's letter to the church in Rome, then I got a promise you it just gets better from here. Both in terms of the guests and in the passages that we get to cover. If you are looking to find the right degree, figure out financial aid and get a feel for life on campus, you should check out boys college preview days for just $25 per person. Boys college will cover your mills in up to two nights of hotel lodging. You can use the promo code knowing fate and voice will wave the $25 fee for the student prospect registration is underway now at Boyce college dot com slash preview would really encourage you to check that out. And our next episode we're going to talk about the symbols of Salvation in the old and New Testament as we look at Romans four versus 9 through 25. Hope you enjoyed the discussion. Grace and peace.
#121 The Righteousness of God
"Pastors need more theology. Not less the same is true for those leading small group ministries if the next step for you is additional theological training please registered today to attend southern seminary preview day on october fifteen when considering seminary. There's no more important question than who will be teaching you during preview day at the southern baptist theological seminary. You'll spend your time with our faculty over meals and in their classrooms for just twenty five dollars. Southern will cover two nights of lodging as well as all your meals on preview day attendees are also automatically entered to win. One of several thousand dollar scholarships southern preview day momentous and this year. It's back on campus. Reserve your spot now by going to sb dot. Edu slash preview come see how attending seminary can be life changing for you and your family that s bt s. dot edu slash preview scowling. I'm joined by my gin wilkin and j. t. english and today we're joined by. Dr michael kruger. Dr krueger serves as the president. And samuel patterson professor of new testament and early christianity at reformed theological seminary. He is the author of many books. Including but not limited to cannon revisited a biblical theological introduction to the new testament the gospel of the savior and the heresy of orthodoxy. On top of all that he is a friend a recurring guest of the podcast. Dr krueger we're glad to have you on the show today. Thank you well. Thanks so much this is so fun. I'm excited to be on while we're honored to have you i gotta tell you cannon revisited And the episode. We did with you on. The cannon are two of the episodes that episode. I send to a ton of people and that book is. I just tell you if you've got questions and your doctor. Cougar has a lot of good books. And i have not had a chance to read all of them. I've read many of them. I will say this though. There is not a better book. I think for many people's questions about the shape of the canon then cana revisited. I give that book by all the time. So thank you for writing it. Yeah we'll thank you. I was a fun conversation that we had. And i'm glad it's useful to people. I think that probably is the book that most people think when they Think about my writings. So i'm always courtesy how it's helped people. Yeah but we love it. We love it. So we're going to jump into romans. Three twenty one through thirty one today. I'm an ass. Jt would you read the passage for us just to get his going and they will jump into some talking through some questions. Yeah this is. Romans chapter three beginning in verse twenty one but now the righteousness of god has been manifested apart from the law although the law and the prophets bear witness to it the righteousness of god through faith in jesus christ for all who believe for there is no distinction for all send in fall short of the glory of god and justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption. That is in. Christ jesus whom god put forward as they propitiate by his blood to be received by faith this was to show god's righteousness because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justify or of the one who has faith in jesus then what becomes of our boasting it is excluded by what kind of law by law works. No but by the law of faith for re hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or as god the god of the jews only is he not the god of the gentiles. Also yes of gentiles. Also since god is one who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith do we then overthrow the law by this faith by no means on the contrary we uphold the law. Excellent thank you. Jt so when we jump into this passage darkroom maybe give us a background. Have you have you ever had the chance. That we're all teaching through romans in these passages as we go. Have you ever had a chance to teach through this portion of romans. Oh yeah Many times fact. I'm so excited to talk to you guys today for so many reasons one is. You're just a lot of fun to talk to. So that's great in its own right. And i'm sure if we talked about anything we'd have a good time but you also picked arguably my favorite passage romans and that's saying a law says romans might be even one of my favorite books. So in effect you practically picked one of my favorite passages in the bible and incidentally and you probably know this. This was luther luther favorite passage. He referred to this as the center of the whole bible. This past Which is a pretty big statement thinking about all the different things you could talk about so yeah. i've taught. I had a bible study here on the charlotte campus. I did for women for two years in the book romans and and we did. Of course this passage it numerous chunks. And then i preached on it numerous times. So it's great text. But what draws you to this passage. Because i think when people think about romans in particular they'll go to romans five romans a romans twelve those kind of the i think outside looking at those are kind of the superstars of the passages of the book of romans. Why why does this passage draw your attention. Why why do you. I think where it sets so important so if you know so few times now do we read a book straight through and it's unfortunate it's domestic and the way we look at a book and it's understandable given how much time we have if you were to sit down and read romans and you read one eighteen through you know basically three twenty divers right before our passage you would be buried under this mound of like. You can't do it your center you fall. Short god's wrath is real and you feel like in verse twenty two gal kind of falls right. i mean. We didn't read it because it's the prior verse. But paul says for by the works of the law no human being. We'll be justified in his sight. Like boom so at that point the readers probably on the verge of despair and then when verse twenty one comes along. It's like the word but but now And i think that's what makes us passenger greatest the great relief or maybe you can even say. It's the great release of the pressure. That's been building up on the books so long. And so it's the consummate a statement of justification. Yeah and on that topic. So we've been talking so far this we've talked a little bit about the concept of the righteousness of god. You know it certainly comes up before verse in chapter three. I mean you're hearing about it right out of the gate and it's locked into the thesis statement of the letter in verses sixteen through seventeen and yet it's not a phrase that has has a little debate to it. There's a lot of debate when it comes to the concept of the righteousness of god and the new testament. We've tried to communicate to our audience. Hey this can feel like a very simple straightforward phrase and paul certainly using it to great effect in romans but in current new testament scholarship. The last what. Twenty thirty forty fifty years of new testament. Scholarship has been marked by a lot of concentration around. What actually does the phrase righteousness of god mean for all of paul but particularly in romans. Could you give our listeners. Just maybe a broad sense of the new testament scholarship kind of current and the last few decades on this concept of the righteousness of god. And what are some of the dominant. I guess emphases you're not woman you pegged it. Righteousness of god is arguably the theme of romans. It's certainly the thing that comes up and paul's theme verse which is typically sixteen and seventeen mainly seventeen. The righteous will live by faith and so the righteousness of god is the dominant theme and he picks up on numerous times. It has been debated extensively. They might help our listeners. Know that into greek. You're dealing with what's called a genitive. It's deco suny to thank you. So it's righteousness of god and to make the debate simple for this conversation. The short of two major options. There's more than that. But there's sort of two major options. Is this a reference to god's righteousness and whether it's sort of on display and is his character being upheld on as he faithful to his covenant. Okay that's option a when he talked about the russian so god god righteous is the question right but then the second option is what we call it sort of genitive of sources are we talking about righteousness from god. So is this something. That god is giving. Is there a righteous status. You can receive from him now you can imagine. That debate is going on for generations. The reformers did the genitive of source. Righteousness from god then with the new perspective on paul flip back to the other one which has no this has to do with god's covenant faithfulness. I i'm sticking with the reformers on this one. I think it's a generative source. I think paul's main theme and the whole book and in this passage is that there is a righteous available to centers that doesn't come from law keeping it comes as a gift from god through christ so it's a righteous status bestowed by god and here's another tidbit for you may not know this. The old the nineteen eighty-four. Iv which some of us may. I grew up on that. I don't know some of others of you did the the nineteen eighty-four and iv translated this in righteousness from god in english added the word from and then in the modern translations and espn two. And you know. I love the sp. But i think i i would say they just went neutral here. I think the the the original enough. You've got it right is the espn says righteous of god and lead you to figure it out but I think it's from is the right word there. Let me ask you this dr krueger. Because i agree with your interpretation but if you're teaching and preaching this or even maybe counseling. Someone about god's character nature is i don't want to be neutral but is it possible to say yes to both. Well sure i mean any phrase could say you could look at it from multiple angles and in this very passage and we can get to later one set of verses in this passage. I think clearly refers to god's character so the term righteousness is using different ways even within the same taxed but the overall construction. I think as a whole i think is more about Something that we as a righteous status were getting from god rather than just a reflection on his own covenant faithfulness. Although of course you're right he is righteous and he is and we can always affirm that so one cents. The answer is which one can say. We'll both narrowly. The argument is clearly a source and one of the reasons. I think that and we'll get to. It is that he says this is a righteous. God that comes by faith. That's the thing about once you say that now you realize. Oh it's a status. That i can get so. It's not about god's got righteous character rather something i can get so much further. I just feel that. I need to say just when i think the reasons i like. You have been exhausted. Dr cougar present me with another one. I feel about the nfl. V nineteen eighty four. The way that some feel about the king james. That's all yes. Hey janet. I'm totally with you on that old version. It's all tax. How much do you want for it i will. I mean they're getting hard to find. Like if you want a copy you gotta you gotta go. You gotta go. Deep into dave not published both. We're gonna we're gonna cry and hug and just a second. We gotta give me but i do want circle back to something that you said because it pops up a lot anytime you're studying An epistle and that is you mentioned the new perspective on paul. And i don't know that all of us know what that is. What is the difference between what the reformers would have said about paul and the new perspective. Can you give us like the cheap version of the short version man. Yeah thirty second version and it won't be third try okay. So here's the quick version of it. Reformers of typically thought. That when paul says hey were saved apart from the works of the law that he means works of the law as meritorious law. Keeping to earn your salvation. Banou perspective comes along and says well not so fast because first century judaism wasn't works oriented religion if they weren't working a religion and they believe you were saved by faith and that's not what paul's fighting against they would argue instead. What paul is fighting against this idea of cultural boundary markers around judaism so it works of the law isn't a reference to miratory law keeping so you can be saved works law rather according to the new perspective on. Paul is a reference to the things that make you distinctively. Jewish would be circumcision food laws sabbath keeping and so paul's whole point new perspective isn't that well you're not saved by works by grace but rather you're not presented to god as as being in his favor because you're ju- you can also be in his favor because you're a gentle so defines justification horizontally chew versus gentile rather than defining justification vertically god in satisfying god's wrath so now as a side note. I think there's an element of truth there. I think the new perspective people have highlighted a lot of release things but when all the dust settles i mean i'm not a new perspective god but that's a that's a quick version. I'm surprised i did it. That fast actually. Now that i think that was really good. And then also how new is the new perspective. Well these things i mean. It's sorta hit it stride in the last twenty to thirty years but it's sort of traced back to a very famous essay by german scholar by the name of kirsten doll. I believe is a name of him. Where he he argues that you know first century judaism. Maybe isn't the the works. Righteousness that we think it is and then he pulls projecting onto it or that. Were rather sorry that we're project on. The paul are sort of own proclivities but then a very famous book by ep. Sanders's called paul and palestinian. Judaism was key and this and that was published in the seventies. And so off. You go damn near later. Yeah wow yeah so. It looks like we plan this which we're gonna talk about it so useful book. I mean it really but jt basically treats it as a second bible want out of this no but to be in a conversation with any perspective is helpful because i think it actually how you even more. It's one of those things that when we love this on this podcast. Is we love talking to people that we have disagreements with. Not sure we agree with you but like to be conversation with anti rights being conversation with ups sanders and others actually helps us. I think can do a greater understanding of what we do mean when we come to conversations about work because the law the righteousness of god. I think it actually creates greater conviction. And what reform originally teaching what. I'm sorry one more follow up then would be. Who would be the names that like our listeners might know if they're like reading commentaries or whatever who would be the names of the most prominent current proponents of the new perspective. While i mean in evangelical world it's gonna be anti riot is going to be most notable but of course and this has been observed many times there really is no one knew perspective. There's new perspectives plural. They all have their variance so nt wright would be one. Sort of james. Don would be one as to sort of prominent sort of prongs in the discussion on and there's various new testament scholars sort of that. They have sympathy to the new perspective. You know like a michael bird would probably say that he's sympathetic to many things in it. Although i don't think he would purely identify himself as a new guy from front to back. Sort of a hybrid view So yeah And i appreciate those many things about all those guys. I think they have a lot of interesting insights but know the end of the day. I don't align fully with that camp obviously really helpful so this phrase righteousness of god that we've been talking about paul goes on and he says has manifested apart from the law although the law and the prophets bear witness to it. So what's paul trying to get us to see here. What does it mean that. The righteousness of god has been manifested. Apart from the law has changed the law and the prophets bear witness to it but this. What paul's talking about. It seems like no something different. Now it exists outside the law so what you see in. Twenty one is paul in his redemptive historical macro overview. He's saying we have. We have ushered in a new era. Okay and what he means is now that righteousness that we so desperately as centers knee righteous status. We have to have if we're gonna stand before a holy god. It's been fully revealed in what crisis dawn and you get that righteous status apart from law keeping so no longer. Would you think that you could get it by just keeping the mosaic law. Now of course. Paul would agree very quickly that you couldn't have kept it in the old testament either and then saved so. It's not so much your say by works. Now you're saved by grace. That's not the difference. The difference is at now. The means by which were saved by grace has been manifested namely jesus has shown up and he's kept the law for us and he's died to pay the penalty for lawbreaking on. So he's really making that point. So if you wanna understand what apart from the law means that you have to go back one verse where he says in the prior verse for by works of the law no human being will be justified so basically saying law keeping and all its ramifications circumcision and sabbath and food laws but any law keeping us meritorious works righteousness. We now can see. Plainly is not the way you save your say by a righteousness. That's revealed from god by faith in christ and so this is just grand declaration. You've used this phrase a couple times. Now i just want to pause on it. This is a very jin. Move for me to do. But i think it's significant meritorious works of righteousness by that. You're saying what. Paul is calling into question here. Certainly what he he did not believe was the case before this passage but what he's making abundantly clear is that works of the law food laws sabbath keeping all of those things. They would not earn the kind of merit necessary to generate the righteousness. That policy talking about here is that you know this is. This is a righteous status. You cannot achieve on your own. This is a righteous status. You can only get as a gift from god. And the reason i use the term meritorious works. Righteousness is because christians are still called to have works right to be righteous. And what we do. We're still going to do good works and so i'm talking about good works as a means by which you're saved. Well that's bad but good works in themselves aren't bad and the reason that that's so important. Of course the passage ends with that right polls. Big sort of last point is we'll get to. I know is going to be hold on a second chuck in the law. Here belong still relevant for the christian but just not in the way you want to use it and so so yeah. That's that's the reason i i use the terminology in the way i do i just wanna make make it clear that i'm talking about a certain kind of works works and that's really helpful. That's really helpful. And i twenty to the righteous and now we're here again through faith in jesus christ for all who believed for there is no distinction for all of sudden fall. Short of the glory of god. Now i want to put my cards on the table. And i think that you're right that this righteousness of god phrase is used as a reference to source righteousness a source righteousness from this year. Verse twenty two seems to me to be abundantly clear. it feels less clear to me in verse. Twenty one is there's something in the nature of the usage here that's changed or is it just the context. Or what am i. Not seeing in verse. Twenty one because in verse twenty one. When i read this i'm going. But now the righteousness of god has been manifested. Apart from the law the law and the prophets bear witness to this seems to me that it could be in reference to the covenant faithfulness of god. His character his justin faithful nature. We're saying the law the prophets were talking about this but now it's been demonstrated outside of that in the righteous man. Jesus christ but in verse twenty two now it seems like there is no question this righteousness of god through faith cross for all maybe that's what. Jt was getting out with a both and here or a yes to both of these. Is this a moment where we're seeing two different angles. Or you'd say no. At present we have been talking about righteousness from and we are talking about righteousness from or has something changed between verse. Twenty one and twenty two to just say i agree with jt. Theologically of courses it. God is righteous and and certainly romans reveals his his righteous character. But i don't think there's anything different going on at twenty one and twenty two and let me tell you why so look at the phrase righteous of god in twenty one Notice what it says. How has it been manifested apart from the works of the law right so in other words. It's not so much about about god's character and nature but rather you have some sort of righteousness that is attainable. Apart from works of the law only works. Law is something that you and i do right so in other words. Whatever the racist has to do with i. it's not achieved by law keeping So that means it must be given as gifts so once you start looking at it and that overall context. I don't think there's a way out of the idea that it's it's a subjective genitive. Here that it's a story it's general source here that that That is coming from god now when we get the twenty five. I do think there's a shift here. And i think that you know we can talk about only when we get there but from my angle at least twenty one and twenty two are using the term in the same way so for all of sudden fall short. The glory of got that probably out of romans. Three that's gotta be like. That's probably one of the most familiar because of its use in romans road and various gospel presentations so all of sudden for the glory of god paulo wants to make sure there is no distinction. We've talked a lot on the podcasts. About the context of the letter the occasion of the letter the audience of the letter that this is a church comprised of gentile jewish christians. There seems to be some level of dispute among the two over. Really maybe who should be sitting in judgment upon the other as paul here again with the no distinction is he making generalizing. Total is in claim about humanity. Or is he speaking specifically to the pastoral occasion of hey. I've got a church here where jews gentiles are basically judging one another and i need him to see you all have this problem. This is universal. Also any hot takes you wanna give us on the romans road. Also we are receiving well. Hot takes may not be my thing. Yeah maybe they should be but Yeah i i would say here then when it comes to the context i i really do thank you. What you described is both hand in the sense that certainly applies to his audience which From what we was. Probably mix of jew and gentile but it certainly applies to all of humanity. All of humanity is the glory of god. And that donna. Just picking up what he'd just finishing chapter three right the first twenty verses in chapter three. We're we're basically saying no one is righteous not even one you know no one does good at least in the absolute sense so there's no escaping this in by the way verse twenty. Three's now out of place here. Of course no one is suggesting it is but i want you to notice how well it fits knows argument. Paul's saying how. Why is it that this righteousness has to be a gift from god. Well because you can't earn it on your own to miratory law keeping why is that. Because all our centers it's fall short of the glory of god so the time you know i just pounds the nails into the coffin of works righteousness. He's saying look it just can't be done. This is why you have to rely on. God is the source of your rights status. Because you can't earn on your own about the way. I don't like you know i'm not the first one to say this. Turn fall short there no pun intended here but fall short of what that means and you didn't feel intentional at all natural thank you. I really didn't intend to do that. But there was the greek term. Here who's toronto is usually translated this way but it's it's misleading. 'cause it makes it sound like you almost got their ryan. Well you gave it a good run man. You know you're fell short but you know maybe a little more time you could have made it and it's like no. The the term is really not english. Fall short doesn't capture. I think it should be something. Like lacks is probably the better series every human being lacks the glory of god. If you don't have it you don't have the status. You need a stand in his presence so you know. I thought the espn would do it differently here. But they didn't they stocked with with fall. Short i don't think i quite get you there wrestling with this and this and this verse in particular recruiter because glory of god. It seems like when it's used in romans. Five has an apocalyptic nature sure we rejoice in hope of the glory of god but some scholarship in romans. Eight suggests that glory of god is used with a reference to the damage. Gloria what the gory that was intended for us to live as vice regions or stewards and we fell short of that fell short of what was intended but a lot of times. When i hear this passage pressure tie. It's a contrast with the total izing public display of god's righteousness glory and the fact that we lack that both legally and experience or for foundationally and ex essentially when we think about the glory of god that we're falling short of here. What is it are we falling. Short of what. God intended for us as his image bearers. Are we falling short of guides. S kind of logical display of his glory in the final judgment. Or is this just. The contrast between our unrighteousness both foundationally and experience in our lives and god's public display of holiness and righteousness of which the law was a picture. And christ the perfection. What are we falling. short of. I think we use this. Glory of god and a lot of times. We use it very quickly very fast. I feel like a lot of times. We don't get very much substance to it. Yeah i mean we pause on the term the term glory here Is is consummately. The way you described. God's godmanis right. He has glorious and no one shares his glory. He is holy he is. He is distinct from us. by virtue glory And and there's a sense in which. I think we probably don't spend time sort of just meditating on that. I don't think scatalogical glories primarily in view here doesn't mean opponents and have a horizontal timer god's full glory will be revealed but i think what he has in view here is probably morlin lines of god's nature god's character as holy on how far short we fall of it so i guess that'd be your option three i if i'm remembering the way you laid those although it's not different Option one either which is also means. We have not lived up to what god intended us to be in the original creative order but but but by using docs here in degree. I think there's a sense of which paul's reminding us you do realize how glorious in holy and wonderful amazing god is and you just got finished proving to you. Don't really get that close to it in your current state. So why would you think you could ever stand before him on your own. Righteousness so i think it just accentuates his point even further. Today's episode is sponsored by the christian standard. Bible the goal of this. Espn is to be faithful to the original languages without sacrificing clarity all the while maintaining both accuracy and readability but beautiful designs featured bible such as the csv she reached truth bible this esp study bible and the csv holy land illustrated bible. Everyone from adults teams. The children can find a csv bible that they enjoy. Find your bible now up to seventy percent off. Learn more at c. s. bible dot com moving forward in verse twenty four and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption. That is in christ. Jesus whom god put forward as a pro pitchy -ation by his blood to be received by faith. This was the show god's righteousness because in his divine forbearance. He had passed over former sense. So let's just let's start with this. What is the word probation. The listeners here that is going perpetuation. That sounds like a hundred dollar word. Give us a ninety nine cent explanations you guys. I love you guys today. You're like i want you to give thirty-second answers to thirty minutes. Yes sir four. You know. I'm like you know dancing around my little thing here but no but you have to. You have to what. I tell my students all the time is you've got to learn your little elevator speech on these things right you. Can't you know you can't just tell your prisoner will. Let's sit down and talk. Forty-five minutes about pitchy -ation or branches. Here exactly right or new perspective on paul for that matter but i love this word I'm appreciative that the espn kept it. i will say that that this is one thing. They did improve over the eighty. Four v Jen as we now reflecting on this. Hey i'm a big eighty four and fan. But i think they use an. It's been a while. But i think the some broad sort of you know sacrifice of atonement kind of language here but someone can correct me if they actually kept reputation the version but the short version is. This is a very specific la vehicle old testament. Sacrificial language appalls invoking here and he's applying to jesus. It's a word that narrowly means to basically satisfy and i. I like to use the term. Soak up all the wrath of god. So this is a god directed statement at saying that in terms of what crisis done. He's fully paid a price in such a way that all god's wrath the very rapidly talked about in one eighteen by the way the whole boats been about it has been fully sort of absorbed by what crisis done so. There's nothing left for you so it has to do with god's disposition right has to do with soaking up his rats that he's fully four you and there's no sense yet Left to punish so it's a. It's a really specific term. Appoint one thing. I think is overlooked here. In this verse. Often is the person offering up jesus as appreciation. When you read it again. We read it but it's we're doing. It's god that is presenting christ as repatriation. And you know the espn put the put forward but present is the better term. Because that's what a what a priest would have done. The test brought a sacrifice sacrificing presented it. So just think about the irony of this. God is basically offering his own son to be the sacrifice that he himself demands. And so there's a sense in which no one could say. Gosh just as wrathful deity. Who's angry all the time. And just you got placate him with blood. No this is a god who loves you. there's going to give his own son for you and he's the one who offers him so it's a very specific. Were a lot of really neat connotations. To be in this work that god does is to be received by faith and then in verse twenty five. The second part of this was the show god's righteousness and then it gives kind of approve for that right like okay. This was a show. God's righteousness why because he and his divine forbearance. He passed over former sins. So we've been talking about this and you and you've indicated now a couple of times you think this phrase is certainly talking abou righteousness of god as a character at you and do you feel like the proof of that is that then paul gives you an example of his character. Hey divine forbearance. He moved he look over. He passed over these things. He was covered in italy faithful. He was just. He was faithful to his promises. Even in the midst of faithlessness that's a testament to this righteous character. Is that what we're see here. Yeah yeah and i think you know. Jt's comments earlier about. This is a reference to god's character. I think this is where we see it. And some you only place we see it in romans but we see it here i think. The context demands it because of the way the verse unfolds to show god's righteousness because he passed over since formerly. So clearly you're dealing with god's character and by the way it's not righteous as god here. That's an interesting thing to note. It's it's it's his righteousness. Actually the phrase is not the same as the dicara sooner they which we keep seeing a pop up again again would you. Would you make the case. Dr krueger that if paul was trying to indicate more of a covenant faithfulness of god to his people that he would have used this similar language most likely in verse. Twenty two and twenty three You mean just his righteousness without the genitive source. Maybe i think that the fact though that he doesn't use the same exact. That's what i mean. Construction here in twenty-five makes me at least open to the fact that he's using the term differently and i think the context suggests that that's exactly what's happening and What i think's interesting about it is is it raises at a point about justification that people don't consider and this is something i think all our ministries need to reflect on more no one pauses to wonder whether in the act justification whether god is somehow but trade or Violated his own righteous standards. In other words No one seems afraid. That god may somehow have done something unjust by letting wicked people go and i think this passage paul feels that he's like whoa wait a second. How does god stay righteous. If he doesn't punish in and the answer morzine punishes at jesus but we we need to be bothered by the potential that wait a second. God's is it possible that god's trying to save us he could violate his own nature. And isn't that something. We should be concerned about how to scott preservers own righteousness when he saves centers. Because if we let us go on earth at committed heinous crime we wouldn't think that was good. Gone pulling off and paul paul paul addresses out. That's what he's getting. I here in verse twenty six. It seems like he makes it clear it was the show his righteousness at the prison time so that he might be just and the justify or of those who have faith in jesus Or the one who has faith in jesus so this idea of like he's not unjust by virtue of his justifying work. He is just an he is able to be just and the justify of those who are unjust by virtue of what he has done with the propitiate tour of work of jesus right. Yeah and i think in general like this point. I think what what that all points to is that when god saves us. He never lowers the standard of his law. He never he never says. Hey well i you know round one. I tried to give you this law thing. I guess i didn't work out very well. Well now just don't worry about it. You know as if it's like well you know. I'm going to move on to plan b now. No god's never not not a mill millimeter. Has you backed off the requirements for one hundred percent. Perfect obedience this just now one hundred percent. Perfect obedience has been maintained by sun and so the very last verse in that section twenty six is just a gem that he can be both just and just a fire. That's the whole enchilada right there. How can god justify centers in state just himself what you found out how because jesus as righteous and he perfectly kept a low for us and he punishes all send that ever was committed in jesus and actually the little greek. There is fun. Because i actually disagree with. Espn here a little bit. Just and just a fire. it's i. I would argue. It's actually that could be just wild justifying And so the temporal sense. There is important that he could be just wild. He's justifying somebody which i think is really the whole point. I'm writing down. I got a sermon coming up in a few weeks that once you go a little bit alterior motive invited no doubt lifting all Borrow from each other all the time. All right well in verse twenty twenty-seven though you could see how somebody could start getting a little confused by what paul actually thinks. The purpose of the law is he says what becomes of our boasting well. It's excluded by what kind of all by law of works. No by the law of faith. Now what is this law of faith is he seems like he. He's contrast with the law of works which he has been you know talking about basically since the end of chapter three so this law of works is not the law that were to live by. But we're delib by. Our boasting is to be excluded by the law of faith. So what's the law tha-tha-th yeah this this a little play on words. Here that i think is pretty creative. Bob paul And by the way uses a lot in romans in some did a list all the different ways uses the word law. I mean there might be double digits of the different ways. He uses law here but obviously works of the law or law works was that we've already talked about which is sort of mosaic law keeping as a means to be justified so what we the law faith. Well it's already been hinted at. It's the principle of fate here the idea that you achieve that same righteous status not by works but by trusting in christ and of course. There's the zinger right zinger. Is that there. That's how you eliminate boasting because it was by keeping boasting wouldn't be eliminated but you eliminate boasting by faith. There's not much to boast in other than someone else's righteousness. Which of course is what all of worship is what is worship other than both in someone else's righteousness not around now. I want as we kind of land the plane here on this conversation he comes back so i if verse twenty for we hold that. No one is justified by faith. Apart from works of the law. He said this. And he's saying it again. Or is god the god of jews only is not the god of gentles also yes of gentiles also since god is one who will justify the circumcise by faith and the uncircumcised through then thirty one. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith by no means on the contrary we uphold the law. Here's a question and maybe a good place for us to kind of land. Is this law that policy talking about here. The law faith or the law of works another law as he saying that the law that we don't overthrow the law that we are to keep by faith or the law that we are to uphold. Is this the law of works. Or is it the law of faith or something else. Why i mean i think the last clause is pretty straightforward on that in my opinion at least is that on the contrary we uphold the law in the law. There is of course. God's righteous standards for how we should live in. We uphold that law even while recognizing. We don't keep it to earn god's favor you know. I i think jen and i know all of us but i think generally particular have talked about this a good bit. Just this idea that grace's the greatest news in the world but that doesn't negate the fact that we still the core of our christopher or striving towards upholding and keeping god's law and it's amazing. How often paul just hits this refrain. Don't think for a moment. That grace means i don't care about law keeping he just means i don't care about meritorious law keeping and of course chapter six is all about that he hints out of here he even hints actually actually preaching in chapter one this week and it made. It reminded me you know he talks about this. Got according to power he says we have received grace and partnership to bring about the obedience of faith. Instead it's almost like you could phrase a lot of what he's doing through the whole letter is you have received. You've not taken apprehended. You have not achieved. You've received grace y for the obedience of faith and this is what he's getting here at the end of chapter three. I agree and i'd be curious to hear. I know were landing the plane. But let me. Just throw in an emergency landing portion. Go back around the pattern again. Like so often been told. That people have a hard time reconciling the message of james with the teachings of paul and the more time i spent in romans in particular the more. I don't understand where those two books not ever wherever pitted against one another. I don't know if i mean. I realize james's leaning more toward wisdom literature in its genre and maybe that's where the disconnect is for people. But it's like paul has over and over again said exactly what james is saying. The faith without works is dead. Is it because james uses works in in place of the law. Is that why people miss the thread. Miss it for many reasons that one phrase of course unchanged after two is throw some people off but but also they talk about the law differently. When paul talks about the law he tends to think of it negatively at first. At least if you're trying to be saved by the laws your enemy right james. Look to the law through the lens of someone who's already saved in there for the laws friend so it sounds like they're different pages but in reality the just dealing with different foes so paul's dealing with basically legalists and james anthony and so they're just guarding different halves of the equation. And what's interesting about our day. Is it sometimes you you talk to people. And they think the only enemy around is is is legal as you don't realize it will actually there's also and omens and honestly we're all a mix of both yataco curious thing is at any given individuals just going to retreat from one of the other. Go back and forth. You can't change around because we can sit and consistent exactly so every every congregation needs needs both those books. But you're right people tend to think they're at odds and they're not at odds cow. Can i ask one question before we wrap up. We're gonna up here. I just thought dr peter spent. Oh i'm i'm going to ask it anyway. here's dr krueger. I've got a bone to pick. Just you're going to pick some phones. I love it. I was on. I was on a podcast yesterday with kyle. I just have to say kyle is one of the best. Podcasts hosts in the world. Kyle and oliver knowing faith listeners. Believe that however kyle knows that. I'm about to bring up. Don't you know we. We've done hundred episodes of knowing faith and i've done one with adam griffin and adam griffin prayed for me before we started the podcast. Did he differ. Kyle's no here's my question for you dr. People who don't trick or treat our halloween or talk come from we're upholding the law here. Okay so maybe one last e hopefully music question before you go unrelated to the specific tax. But i know you spent a lot of time not only saying romans but the new testament if our listeners trying to grasp for themselves obviously we're going to ask them to repetitively romans but has there been any commentaries. That have been particularly helpful for you as you've studied and taught rooms asking as a preacher. That's about to start a sermon series and romans. Yes so many good ones. i mean. there's certainly many good academic ones in some recent ones that are really good. And there's of course the classics. I mean look at hodgin. Murray as the classics more contemporary look at new and schreiner and these are all really useful and so forth and then on a really academic level. I love cranfield. Icu common channel. Romans think is fantastic. But for the average listener out there. I think one of the best commentaries on romans is still martin lloyd. Jones's martin lloyd jones. Everyone knows preach like what ten years. Yeah through the book. Romans on friday nights or some crazy number like that and they. They've taken all of them into effectively commentaries. They're much more devotional so they're much more accessible but they're still really deep and you know he's a second-to-none in terms of really get into the meat of it so that's that's where i would woodland as a suggestion. That's great. thank you for that. I'm heading over to amazon right now. Recommending martin lloyd jones kenya romans. It's famous because of his. He he did that long long series at the westminster chapel in london years and years. And i don't know. How does that law i forget how many i i got the number somewhere in my notes on how many he did before it was all over and it's remarkable number. Well i'll tell you. We're tremendously grateful to have you on the podcast dr krueger. You always making time to join us. Listen listener if you are. If you have not had the chance to read. Dr cougars work. I mentioned some of the books at the top. I would encourage you just amazon. Michael kruger and if you're looking for a great places his work on the cannon is tremendously helpful and incredibly practical particularly. I found it to be of particular benefit for those who are struggling with just wondering. Why are these books of the bible here and you know every right now. We're just getting the same. The same kind of conspiracies all over again on tech talk. I feel like i'm on technique. Talk watching all of the same things that for the last century could check out. What do you like twelve old. Why are you on tick toxic talk stores for cannon discussions so i mean krueger waded into the waters of the tot cannon discussion. There's a lot there's a lot of tectonics scholars out there that are basically just rattling off this same into spoken over the for centuries and But if you are somebody or maybe you're a college junior high school student. They're going. Hey i can't trust the bible. A bunch of people just got together and you know made a power play cana revisited wall to spill a lot of the most easy myths out there to dispel dodge. Kruger's works fantastic on that. So thank you for joining us. Dr krueger thank. You guys are great so much fun. I hope to have another conversation at some point down the road and our next episode. we'll cover. father abraham. Is we jump into romans. Four if you're looking for knowing faith you can find this on social media at knowing faith. Podcasts facebook instagram twitter. We hope you enjoyed the discussion grace and peace.
#104 The Story of Sodom
"I'm excited to tell you about a new opportunity. For those ministering to children students singles women and adults you can now are a doctorate of ministry and discipleship from southern seminary. The program will enhance your ability to teach well and disciple deeper the demand in discipleship which is open to those with emptive or ma. Degrees is ideal for christian educators. The doctor of ministry and discipleship at the southern baptist theological seminary is the first of its kind anywhere. It will equip you with teaching discipleship strategies necessary to confront today's cultural social spiritual challenges students receive training in a modular format allowing you to complete your degree without relocating to louisville this format combines the academic rigor you expect the scheduling flexibility. You need and the scholarly instruction you desire from southern's distinguished faculty for more information or to apply go to sbs dot edu slash discipleship save forty dollars by using the application waiver code knowing faith type it in his one word deadline to apply for the summer cohort is marched. Fifty of get started today teach well and disciple deeper by going to sp dot edu slash discipleship. You're listening to knowing faith. A podcast of training the church burnings including calculator. I'm joined by my co host. Jon wilkin and jt english. What's up. y'all hey kyle always make me say hi i. I know i'm i'm just trying to let you go i. That's if you ever get the sense that maybe our friendship on the podcast has some awkward moments to just no actually actually just a part of it like that's actually a real part of our friendship is sometimes. Sometimes we're all talking over one another and sometimes were merely in the same space with our heads down on our phone and one of us is talking and the other two are pretending. I usually am listening. You're kyle literally just so if you know if you're listening to this kyle. We were laughing so hard before we started the podcast. Kyle had been about thirty seconds. Composing himself art. The i was terrified. That i was gonna like click record and immediately still be laughing. Because we're so serious on the podcasts. Favorite moments is when kyle gets in the zone. Like i got a lock in and going to you You know executive producer mode here here. We go so on that note Let me ask you guys this question. Because i think this passage is is one that It can feel like this is a passage that were parts of it can be significantly misunderstood or misapplied. What what do you do when you encounter passage of scripture that when you teach or you've had to teach them you feel like there's already widespread confusion like is there one that stands out to you. Where new like you've got up teaching it knowing like the one that i always think about this for me is like anytime that i've ever had to get up and teach on the passage On creation or the creation. I feel like. I'm walking in a field of land mines and i'm like this whole room has heard about creation. Yeah they've got one hundred different perspectives our opinions and there may even one person in there that is like has never heard it. But there's like the people who have and have thought about it. I very hard opinions or perspectives on this story. What's one for you when you get up to teacher. You thought it in the past you feel like the topic that you address a mess. Common one is when i teach on someone thirty nine. i'm in women's circles that's the self esteem psalm and so getting to reframe it and say hey you thought it meant this but what if it means this before we start talking about how you feel about it and i love it. I love doing the work but it is tricky to address the what. The potential misunderstanding is without communicating. That you thought someone was a dummy like. I'm never feeling that. I'm never like hey moron i'm always like it. It's more along the lines of jesus in the sermon on the mount. Being like you have heard that it was said you know it's like hey let's circle back and revisit this and see if that fits with the bigger story that's going on here jt. I don't know that have a good answer. The first one that came to mind was philippians chapter two. It's a it's a christ condescending and phrase it says he gave up his he basically gave up his divinity with greeter thomas canosa's mosul mean or think that it means jesus to divine therefore you be a servant and that's basically the exact opposite of what paul is saying but not really controversial like it just requires an explanation passage though where there is confusion just over what it says and maybe reading it the right way and the reason i ask that is because today we're going to look at the story of sodom in genesis chapter eighteen and oftentimes we kind of no one thing and one thing only about genesis eighteen and nineteen a the story of sodom and. We think we know that one thing and we know this is what was going on inside them. This is what happened. And that's why there is judgment and yet when you pan out and you read this story. Literally it doesn't it takes on. It doesn't become reduced more than that. But there's more texture that's added to it to where we realize you know what there's actually some really big things happening in this story And yes part of that is dressing sexual ethics. That may challenge us or make us feel counter cultural. There's no doubt about that. But the reality is that when we look at the story of sodom in light of the story of abraham in which is met it and the larger story of genesis is. There is a lot to pull on here. There's is a lot so did you think last night and samina say there is a lot down home. I gosh who on to say guys. Listen you can't you can't hate me for being a professional wordplay unconscious food. Well so when we get to genesis to talk about what we do talk about here that's gonna come back. I have sense that we're going to be playing up that one So we've been following along. With abraham we've covered the covenant with abraham in genesis. Fifteen last episode. We looked at the story of hagar and the promise of the child and the the symbol of circumcision in genesis eighteen When we open it up were were there. With abraham again and yet the lord has approached him it says in genesis eighteen one and the lord appeared to him by the oaks of monterey as he said at the door of his ted and heat of the day he lifted up his eyes and looked and behold three men were standing in front of him. We saw them. He ran from the tent door to meet them. He bowed himself to the earth and said oh lord if i found favor in your sight do not pass by your servant and then he begins to show them hospitality and And it says in verse. Six abraham went quickly into the tent to sarah and said quick three saves of fine flour needed and make cakes. And abraham to the heard. It took a cath tendering. Good gave it to a young man who prepared it quickly. Then they're they're standing by the tree. They're eating their drinking together. And here we get a sense of this conversations. Continuing regarding abraham and sarah. It says in verse nine. They ask him they said to him where your wife and he said she is in the tent. And the lord said. I will surely return to you about this time. Next year in syria wife shall have aside. Now jin ivy question here. If i if i could pause When we get this when we get this moment here where we're getting a promise This sounds very similar to The beginning of geneticists seventeen. Yeah right where it says. The lord appeared to him and god spoke to him and even gives them the further. Kind of promise. Going into that That sarah's going to have a son within the next year. Is this one of those times where we're getting that same encounter from a different angle like. Is this the same situation that were now just getting from like a because we heard something very similar in seventeen and now feels like we're getting more. This almost feels like genesis. One genesis to me where it's like we got some things introduced in genesis. One genesis two gives us more up closer personal about how the event happened. Is that were to see or is this different now. This is genesis. Seventeen abraham. here's directly from god genesis. Nineteen up genesis eighteen Sarah hears directly from god. So it's not that. We don't think that abraham would have gone and told sarah what what he hears. But what we're going to learn about. Sarah is that. Sarah is one of those people who Says did god really say right and we have already seen that and so here. Here's where she gets to hear herself. Exactly what the promise is and what the lord speaks to her. Says the lord said i will surely return to you about this time next year. Sarah your wife shalva son. Sarah was listening at the door behind him. And abraham and sarah were old they were advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with. Sarah so sarah last to ourselves saying after i am worn out and my lord old shall i have pleasure. The lord said to abraham. Why did sarah laugh. And say sean indeed bear child. Now that i'm old is anything too hard for the lord at the appointed time. I will return you about this time next year. And sarah shahala son. Sarah denied saying. I did not laugh for. She was afraid he said no. But you did laugh. I got to tell you. This is one of those times in the narrative. Where i love. How the dialogue is written. It's like narrator. Sarah denied it. Saying i did not laugh for us. Afraid and then air is there but he said no but you did laugh. It's like it feels very like. I don't know if you've seen those memes where it's like sarah says i didn't laugh narrator in but she did laugh about it where it's like it turns out you actually are lying sarah. Let's pause here because we're about to turn her eyes toward sodom. And i don't want to go right into that part of the story because just actually physically there are about to turn to look at sodom and then the whole story kind starts going in that direction. Let's pause here is there. A syrah is laughing. Because is this just a she feels. She's she just incredulous. That biologically this can happen. Well as you know. I think it's more than that So first of all you know. We had abraham who laughed when the lord says to him and that was the it was like a joyful incredulity was like not even incredulity. Was just like this is amazing. Is that kind of laughter. But we know enough about sarah at this point to be able to tell that she's probably not going to laugh from the same place because if you think about the reproach that she carries in an ancient society where her entire body doesn't matter that she's beautiful powerful if she can't produce a child And i always liked to just frame up for women anytime. We're in this section of the tax that this is actually not a story that we would apply to to an individual's For till infertility issues. This is a story that which is not say. It has nothing to say to those who are walking through infertility but that we would not look to sarah's battle with infertility as some example that we ourselves or our to follow. Because it's a it's a story that has to do with the bigger theme of fruitfulness and multiplication and the line that leads to christ and so the point here is that the the birth of the child will be a miraculous occurrence. That's the whole point of the story and so for women who have been caught up in a lot of pain around the story. i give you permission. As we go through this x. two x. hale and just let it be about christ Oh that's a help To those figures that so but we're seeing here is sarah sitting setting contrast to hagar Hagar's god was a god who saw and heard if you remember she said. Surely you're a god who sees when he when he meets her at the well But here what do we see. Sarah's god is blind and deaf there is inside the tent and she Thinks that because she's inside the tent she can say whatever she wants But god is not mocked and so you know it got the three men could have said. Hey we're sarah bring her out here but instead you know they play on this idea that she feels she's concealed and therefore can be honest about what she's really thinking and so her concealment would indicate not that she's laughing out of joy but that this is a bitter laughter of a really Yeah like a laughter of disbelief right. Like there's just like there's there's no way this habit and but the the is series main issue here because the the reason she gives for this disbelief are. I don't want to say this in a wrong way. She gives very concrete reasons. And the narrator does away of the women had ceased to be with. Sarah like sarah just didn't believe enough right. It's like the narrator is saying listen the thing that stands in the way you're and i say this to say because like sometimes i think we over over spiritualize things like this like around healing or miraculous provision that. Like if somebody just believes enough then they'll be provided but neither nor the narrator nor sarah seemed to believe here that the primary obstacle to sarah conceiving is her belief or disbelief. now there are some biological realities. Yeah not only that but but it sounds like when the promise was originally given all those years earlier that sarah was still having a cycle and now she has through this period of time watched her cycle grind to a halt and so if there were any hope that she might have a a healthily functioning reproductive cycle. That is that has gone. She had her womb is is dead in to to you know to speak in like metaphorical terms which is important. I understand because like you read in the new testament. Descriptions of abraham from this one man came descendants and him as good as dead and so he's described twice in the new testament as being as good as dead and his wife. Sarah also and so the whole point here is going to be. can god bring something From death can he bring life from death. That's the story is playing out here absolutely. That's good that's good so From this point this. There's it's not an interruption but the view changes okay. we've had guy. I just say one thing. I'm really disappointed in you. Okay you didn't talk about one through eighteen. Oh my goodness the reason bringing it up jin whereas remember this in youtube jin india. Going away gift from tv. See was jen. Got me a little icon from russian painter it's called it's andrei ruble ebbets an icon of the trinity of these oaks of mammary. I'm just gonna note notes. We'll hey by the way. This is another thing too for listeners. That one of our assistance asked us to talk about. We now have show notes like really good show notes neurosis going back through season one in moving forward with good show notes so we're gonna have katie put andrei rubel of trinity icon in the show notes. Because i don't know. Genesis is only one of the most significant passages of scripture deduct about the nature of god that kyle just skipped over but we can keep going because apparently wants to get this autumn and good bar go ahead. The often conversation brought back to how i was brought up by the biblical texts. No no no okay. Here's the deal for real. Let's talk about that a lot. Jt the bible is talking about it. I will shout where the bible shouts and whisper where the bible whispers or something like that. There's nothing better than a pie served with your own words. I will say sproles words. There is something fascinating here where you have a departure. And i want to note this and i don't want us to fall into the pit again. We're not doing it. But i wanna i wanna make note here. That is that is fascinating. Starting in verse. Sixteen when it says the men set out from there and they look down toward sodom and abraham went with them to set them on their way. The lord said shaw hide from abraham. What i'm about to do seeing that. Abraham schell surely become a great nation all the nations of the earth. She'll be blessed and i've chosen him. That he may command his children and household after him to keep the way of the lord by doing righteousness injustice so that the lord may bring abraham what he has promised them. Then the lord said because the outcry get sodom and gomorrah is great. And they're very grave. I will go down to see whether they have done altogether. According to the outcry that has come to me. And if not i will know and then this next thing is very interesting. I mean that right there. There's we're gonna come back to that. But i'm making a note. So the men turned from there and went toward sodom but abraham still stood before the lord. Now this is fascinating. Because i will say you've had these three men who have been there have been speaking. With abraham who at least one of them or all three of them are addressed as the lord or representing the lord to such a degree that they could be considered to be properly addressed to as the lord and yet and this moment it signals that some of the mid so the men turned from there and went toward sodom but abraham still stood before the lord. Jt what do you make of that. Do you make of this That one of those people was one of the three. Everybody knows what i'm going to say. Yes that's what i make. And i really mean this and i'm not gonna i'm not gonna wanna hear it because i because you do have me thinking through this. Is this a one of these. Is the oftener christoph need. The other two are in djelic like end representations those to go towards some audit smarter sodom and gomorrah tomato. Wow just keep doing that over this season but those two are the two angels that we see go into saw them who have the unholy interact in their right that costed. I would take this or two primary history of interpretation ways to take this. The first is the trinity somehow appearing. I have i think that's slightly problematic. I mean that's where ruble of actually writes the perspective he writes his era paints icon from. I take that. This is actually the often era. Christopher with two messengers or two angels with them but all appearing in some human form. Can we just back up really quickly to that end of that sarah part before we get to the next part because i think it helps us understand it a little bit. Sarah is in the tent and then she lies right. She lies to god. She says no. I was not laughing. And and god says no nobody you did laugh and we should be surprised at what doesn't happen there because think about what happens to aken when he lied about having treasure in his tent. Think about the story of not priscilla nicola. What am i trying to say in the new testament in insofar since the fire of the day the anti priscilla yes right exactly But they lie and and they they they have an immediate consequence that is irreversible so to speak And so we have to ask the question. Why doesn't god strike down. Sarah because she deserved it for the way that she related to him. Now obviously we understand her role in the story is much bigger and and she is under the blessing. She is one of these. I will bless those who bless you. That's where she falls under so god perseveres with her even in the midst of this blatant disobedience and that's important for us in the way they were gonna understand the story of lot because as kyle has hinted at already we think of this story as though we know the list of the good guys and the bad guys and it's going to be important for us to to to how everyone is treated so with that in mind kyle proceed so we're getting a signal here that there's a problem in sodom and then a part of the reason why these this the often or these angelic forces have have shown up is because there has been an outcry and this fascinating verse twenty because the lord said because the outcry against make it more as great in their is very grave. I will go down to see whether they have done altogether. According to the outcry that it's come to me. And if not i will know now. This is fascinating because there is a sense here. In which the lord this is almost like a gods descent at babbel isn't it. That essentially babble has been something that's happening but it's kind of it but and it's happening here on earth and god is descending in order to kind of calculate. Okay is this. what is what. I've heard some suggests that this here is representative of the anjelica messengers. Bringing back report to god. That essentially the outcry is as not just a metaphorical. This is not just a figure of speech. But essentially that the anjelica host. That is a moving around. Earth is reporting back to god essentially notifying him of the gravity of babbel's weakness or sodom ever heard this sort of. Here's here's here's what i've heard on this and it has to do with why we see this. Visitation happened with three figures instead of just with one Because if you look at the way that the law is going to be given later on In exodus and then in the rest of the pentateuch. A person's guilt is established on the basis of two or three witnesses and so. I really think that more the force of what's happening here is that two or three divine. Witnesses are coming down not to learn anything but so that there can never be can never be said that god ruled unjustly without having first hand you know without this this expression of a first hand witness yep absolutely and i think that's got to be a part of it here. I agree with that. One hundred percent And he says if not. I will know it. Says says the intern from there and went toward sodom. And now we're getting. I'm not gonna read all of this year. Because i it's it's a pretty. There's that there's a lot of texts to cover. But i do want to mention it because i think it's important. Abraham begins to talk with god and he begins to talk with them. Really kind of an intercessory prayer manner. Meaning that abraham is petitioning god on behalf of sodom and on behalf of lot who lives there who says kid. And abraham says will you indeed sweep away the righteous the wicked suppose. There are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away. The place not spirit for the fifty righteous who are in far. Be it from you to do such a thing to put the righteous to death with the wicked so that the rich righteous fair as the wicked far. Be that from. You shall not the judge of all the earth do it has just. And the lord said if i find as saddam fifty righteous in the city. I will spare the whole place for their sake. And so abraham then begins to kind of go okay fifty well. What about forty-five be five. What about four hundred thirty five. He begins to kind of just talk with odd. And i think one thing that's worth asking here an for us to work through. This is is abraham changing. God's mind here in this passage because like if you just gave it a real quick surface level reading it could kind of feel that way. Couldn't it like god has a plan. He's come to that plan. He's he's come to abraham with that plan. He's told them what he's gonna do. And now abraham is changing. God's plan colin. I've had this conversation if off offline just about the immutability and impossibility of cuts sakala. I think this'll be. I'd love for you to answer that my take is that abraham My my is this. We do not know. The intersection of guides Plans and our prayer. But that god has chosen to involve us as pets and the accomplishment of his purposes through prayer. And that's part of what we're seeing here with. Abraham is that. I think we can genuinely and honestly say god invites us to into participation in the accomplishment of his plans around the world through the prayers of his people there is a mystery regarding prayer. And how it relates to the revealed and hid in purposes of god. We didn't get. When god told abraham as much as he's told him so far is that there is unrighteous this autumn and it will be judged and at no point is god deterred from that righteous judgment. That should be noted An abraham is it trying to deter god from the righteous judgment against wickedness. That should also be noted. He's not trying to say god. Don't judge the wicked. And god is saying okay abraham because you asked me to. I'm not going to judge the wakened. Abraham is merely asking a question and i think it emerges from a fairly honest place which is will what in thorough righteous in that city right. You've gone down there. Because of the great outcry of evil against the great outcry of evil that you have heard to judge the evil in the wickedness. But will you judge the wicked with the just so. I don't think abraham is intending to stop god's judgment. I don't think he's trying to grapple with god to stop the judgment. I think he's merely asking okay. But what if there are righteous among the wicket there and for that sake god was never going to judge the righteous with the wicked. He was not going to do. That and neighbor has not asking him to do that But abraham is appealing to god in a way that i think we can say and the kindness and condescension of god. He has chosen to accomplish his purposes in the world through the prayers of his people not always but often so he's not changing. God's mind so. I agree with everything that you said about prayer and i think that's a valuable teaching. I disagree that this passage is is addressing that Because if he if you look at the entire sweep of the story this has way more to do with abraham's understanding of who is righteous than it does with will god or will not. God destroy the city because he whittles him down to ten right in this whole back and forth but god already knows exactly how many righteous people there are in sodom. You and i might read what happens next and think that the righteous who were removed from sodom are lot and his wife but then we find out by the time we get to the end of the cycle of lot story. Certainly his wife is not right just she looks over her shoulder with longing to go back and certainly lot was not righteous. Because of what's going to happen with his daughters and so the real answer to the question of will indeed sweep away. The righteous with the wickedest no. He would never do that but none is righteous. No not one. What god does is he actually spares some of the unrighteous according to his graciousness and according to his plans. And i think that's what the lesson of the story is. But i do think that what you described is worth exploring. I think it's better explored in the story. Where moses intercedes on behalf of israel Later on in exodus. But that's just me not just me. But that's how i said. No i agree. I agree that The the most passages clear instance of that with god's presence going with them in the land what i would say here is i. I'm not. I'm not as maybe convinced as you are. That abraham is misunderstanding who is righteous and who is not righteous in sodom and gomorrah and partly because i feel like the overall theme here with abraham is can picture here that who are those who are righteous will they are the ones who are advocated or or mediated on behalf of god's chosen righteous. Want so a lot is rescue. Lot and his family are rescued. Yes because of the grace of god and yet god could have shown grace to any number of the people in sodom and gomorrah and he chose to show grace to lot and his people because those were the people for whom abraham was like. they are under his covering. They're under his headship in the same way that we as the church are under the kind of headship or intercession advocacy of christ. And so like in my mind. I'm with you. I understand what you're saying that sodom and gomorrah and cause a lot and his daughters are not going to be like some sort of paragon righteous living. But nor has abraham ben and more other people in sodom. So i feel like i get what you're saying. But could it be that. Like the reason that grace's shown a lot in his family is because of their belonging to abraham and the blessings of the covenant that kind of go to them by extension. yeah abraham would be The type of christ and the story. And so it's the the righteous for the unrighteous. He believes in his credited to him as righteousness and then Lot is spared not because a lots righteousness but because of abraham's so you don't want to carry that to obviously don't stretch that beyond where it needs to go. But i think that's the way that the types are lining up for in the story But lot is not portrayed for us at any point in this story as as as being a a god fear. Frankly i mean. There's that passage in jude. Where he shows up in the new testament that describes him as a righteous man. And i'm like can we out no and so think i wanna make sure that i'm not am am i reaching here though. With abraham like because old testament conceptions of righteous. This wouldn't be careful that like the old testament is is regularly commending. It is possible to be righteous like the wisdom literature in particular and god is actually called abraham to walk righteously before him. Hey so purportedly. Abraham and others can walk in righteousness. They can walk. In god's righteous ways in the laws in within the context of where this is going to fall israel's commanded to walk in righteousness and so is it. I understand that nobody in sodom is righteous as we can only be righteous in christ but it does seem that they could be more righteous than they are. They could behave differently in the eyes of god. There's a reason. Why the outcries from sodom and not from another place like egypt or or or another place. That abraham is sojourned through and so it seems like here the reason that law and his family are rescued is not necessarily because they have a distinct righteousness on their own and not just to because of like an arbitrary grace but because in some way they belong to god's covenant people that's different than the rest of sodom but it but in my but in my stretching that though i think we're saying the same thing okay okay. I think we're saying. I'm saying that. I'm saying because of lot lot of say. Because of abraham in the same sense that jen is not say because of gen. Jan say because of christ yes and so i think that's how the type sets itself which is not say abrahama senlis or your sins of lot or anything like that but i think that's the way that the typologies being set up what do you think. Jt been over there flipping around. I'm just going as i'm thinking about things. You're saying that are referencing other places scripture because it said that before signing to give it some more thought but certainly it's an interesting perspective. I'd always read it the way kyle read it. But there's a sense in which it's like you think of hebrews chapter thirteen where faith and righteousness as being commended. And that's where we're told show brotherly love because sometimes you're you're going to entertained. Angels unawares as we see a lot doing here. When jesus is teaching on flee the coming tribulation he teaches specifically about flee the coming judgment like you think of what luke seventeen On that day. Let the one who is on the house. Top who who has goods are in the house. Don't come down to take your goods away. Likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. Remember lot's wife. Whoever seeks to life will lose it but whoever loses his life will keep it so it seems that jesus and some senses committing the righteousness of lot for fleeing the coming judgment tribulation. That was coming to sodom. No does not play has to be dragged out but he but he is Okay so he flees but it's also a gracious fleeing where because lot is not mentioned. Watts wife is well. Yes because once they've been bodily removed from the city. She is still looking back over her shoulder. I think that a closer comparison to the way that lot is rescued would be The story of the good samaritan Where the guy in the ditch is unconscious because if he were awake he would fight against his savior And i think that's the same kind of idea that we see here with lot. And his wife they are. They are for all intents and purposes dragged kicking and screaming from from from the from the city. I don't know that's that's how i read it. Well here's the thing that will preach. I'll go with it and the other the other thing you have to keep an account here is what we've already seen of lot. Is that you know. He pitches his tent toward sodom. There's this progression of him moving closer and closer to away. He's moving away from the land of promise and closer and closer to saad. He's been flirting with it. And then at the beginning of the story. We find that he's at the gate which means he's not just living in sodom he's he's a respected citizen and sodom the stories of christians on the front lines at persecution. Today need to be heard their holy spirit empowered courage and faithfulness will stir your soul. Todd netanyahu's new book. When faith is forbidden is full of these remarkable and inspiring accounts through. Todd's work with the global organization voice of the martyrs. You're invited into a journey to meager brothers and sisters in the gospel powerfully. Living out their faith in the midst of persecution around the globe you can learn more at win. 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Just go to ministry grid dot com slash knowing faith to learn more about the special off. So abraham continues to talk with god and it says the end in verse thirty three of chapter eighteen and the lord went his way when he had finished speaking. Abraham abraham returned to his place. Now we turn to the entrance of sodom chapter. Nineteen verse one. The two angels came to sodom in the evening and lot was sitting in the gate of sodom when lots of them. He rose to meet them about himself with his face. The earth and said my lords. Please decide to your servants house and spend the night. Wash your fee. Then you may rise up early and going your way. They said no we will spend the night in the town square but he press them strongly so they turned aside to him and entered his house. He made them a feast. Emmy baked unleavened bread and they okay so jin go back to what you were saying with lot sitting at the gate because that this is one of those kind of little ancient near eastern. Yeah that does not we read right. Pass this we're like. Oh yeah just coincidence. A little quinton lot happened to be at the gate. That was waiting there that it means. He's won. he's probably one of the city elders. And so if you track his geographical location through the text as he's into his e keeps being introduced to us and then we pause and a stories introduced again. We press pause and so on so forth. He has been making a progression toward Toward sodom and now. He's he's all in two so now lot is here and he's any any petitions like hey. Don't go sleep in the town square. They kind of messed with them is what they do. They're like run. We'll be fine out here and he's like you will not be fine so he demonstrates a complete awareness of just how bad things are. Yeah now and this is an important point to a pause here and Into note this kind. This may seem strange to us. That like law would run upon a couple of strangers and invite them into his house and while. i do think it's important that What jinja said lot is aware of of. Maybe what would happen in the middle of this town at night to two strangers. It's also important to note that in the ancient near east. This kind of hospitality to strangers was expected And there was a reciprocity that was expected in ancient near eastern civilizations. So what lots doing is probably twofold. One is demonstrating some hospitality to strangers as he should. But also that hospitality. The underside of it is probably indicative of the fact. That lot was well aware that these two guys were not your typical visitors to sodom. And that what happened at night and the town square to them as strangers and outsiders would not be good And so those two things are working at the same time And it says before they lay down the minute so we're at lots house now And it's nighttime the men of the city the men of sodom both young and old all the people to the last man surrounded the house. Now this is very like inclusive categorical. Language the writer is almost pains to point out. Every but all the min- there everybody all the people to the last man around the house. They call the lot where the men who came to you tonight. Bring them out to us that we may know them. Lot went out to the minute. The entrance shut the door after him. And said i beg you my brothers do not a wickedly behold i have two daughters who have not done any man. Let me bring them out to you. Do to them as you please do. Nothing to these men for they have come under the shelter of my roof. No let's pause The way that lot response here is an indication that when they say we would like to know these these people that it's not like get to know you meet and greet sip and see Kind of conversation. They wanna have because lot comes out and essentially says. I have two daughters who have not known any man. What is doing here i mean. Jt like just put the cards on the table. He's prostituting his two virgin daughters. Whom yeah that's exactly or ific because what are the men want. Yeah 'cause the language is really clean here. And the reason i need. We need to drive it. There is because you could read this and go. What's i mean. Obviously this goes bad and the more you read it the closer you can see like okay but the language here is very. It's very clean for what's really transpiring. And this conversation. These are people who these are men. Who have sarah inside have surrounded lots house. Who are begging these two angelic visitors. Who lot is hosting now will be really released up to them. In order for them to engage in sexual activity with them. And you'll notice that every man to the last man language i would argue supports the idea that these are witnesses. Establishing the guilt of every single member of sodom. That it's like that the narrator is pointing that i i thought about like that but i can see that essentially just saying like For the for the later audience it would read it. Hey we were there. This was not just a few people. This was And they called a lot. You know where are you. Where are the men who came to unite. Bring them out that we may know them lot. You know he begs them. So he's he's like trying to protect them. These angels from the minnesota and so in a kind of last ditch. Hell mary attempt to do that. Well isn't really lasted shell mary. It's really his first thing right. I mean it seemed like he comes to the front door and his like. Let me give you my daughter's instead. Well think about how weird it is. That lot has raised two virgin daughters in the city of sodom. right right. yeah. Yeah that's weird. That means those girls basically never left the house. So he's he's the double minded man you know. He's he airy places a he places a priority on chastity and so far is it supports the end result of being able to have marriageable daughters at such time as he needs that. I mean it's really not a pretty picture at all and for for women who are listening to this often. I know if you're just hitting this story in a bible reading plan this is where you really want the narrator to jump in and say and such thing is to be done ever and the narrator doesn't say anything and i want to reassure you that that's because it is so obvious that what's going on here is is an absolute affront to god and to those made in his image being offered up in this way and and while the narrator doesn't say anything the angels do they step in and they say stand back and they said this fellow researcher and he is Odom sorry these are the men. Speaking angels are about to speak or about the to act But they said these are the men of sodom stand back and they said this fellow came to sojourn and has become the judge. There's other say lots an outsider to saad and now he's sitting here telling us what we can and can't have now. We will deal worse with you then with them. Then they press against the man lot and junior break the door but the men reached out their hands and brought into the house with them and shut the door and they struck with blindness the men who are at the entrance of the house small and great so that they wore themselves out groping for the door so again. This is a very visceral account. that's happening. I mean this is a this is a kind of action movie. Like scene here. Where like they reach out. They grab lot. They pull him into the house. And they like shrike blindness. On all of these men that have gathered. And you still get the picture that even blind they just says. They wore themselves out groping for the door. Like they're trying to this is this is bob. It's a mob picture isn't it. yeah oh yeah Now i wanna pause here. And i think we have to. We have to talk about this even though it's not this is not necessarily what we do on this. Show all the time In recent days there's been criticism of traditional interpretations of this passage and the criticism has been twofold. The criticism has been that the judgment of sodom is not primarily about the sexual activity that these men want to engage but is about a failure in the ancient near east on hospitality and this has been a criticism that's been offered primarily by those who would want to say this passage isn't really dealing with sexual immorality really dealing with sodom as an injustice against Hospitality have you heard this before i have. I haven't i've heard it. I've heard a little bit expand on what what's the hospitality breach the hospitality breaches that a lot is being the husky. He is doing the like what the righteous thing to do is these are two strangers. And he's bringing them into their home and these people here are saying lot is hogging the opportunity to bless these people. Bring them out into the city so that we can like this these are strangers like essentially the idea is that strangers and sojourner would not have been a really common occurrence in the ancient near eastern particularly if they had some sort of defining features to them and so that what lot is doing here is lot is essentially pulling away from the rest of the city the opportunity to receive the reciprocity blessing for hosting two strangers. Who might be of means of wealth or who might have some way of blessing the other residents in sodom so the idea is that lot is an outsider and he is hoarding for himself. The blessing of hosting strangers. Who probably as would have been true in. Ancient near eastern cultural customs would've extended some kind of blessing to lot in his family for hosting them. This is primarily a criticism. That's been put forward to again deflect from the sexual dimension that's present in the center here because if it's about in hospitality or lots lots Selfishness overextending the blessing of hospitality. Then it can kind of moves the focus away from a sexual issue that we we'd not rather talk about talk about god's judgment on yeah well i. I haven't spent a lot of time listening to the argument. Obviously since i'm asking you to familiarize it with me right now. But i don't. I'm not sure how that could be. That argument could be made just in light of the context of the story where it says that god has come down to judge the inhabitants of the of the town. I think the reason those kinds of arguments get leveled against the interpretation that has dominated the landscape for so long Is because that interpretation was that law that saddam was destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality and What we're reading here is that is not an accurate translation. That is not an accurate Way to look at this either because the sin of sodom was not limited to the senate homosexuality the sin of sodom was ed as wickedness mail that included but was not limited to homosexuality it also included heterosexual forms of sexuality that were being practiced in in horrible ways. As as we just saw here so I understand why that argument is leveled. I think it's leveled because at times the church at times more often than not the church has elevated homosexual sex to a special category of sinfulness. Right absolutely. yeah. I'd be anxious to hear your thoughts on this because i might push one step further. I also think the reason arguments that can be leveled against the biblical text is because we want the text to reflect us And we want to. We want to read the text. Not let the text read us Or to say it another way you can make the bible say you want it to say if you try hard enough in those criticisms and there's kind of a whole school of thought behind that this isn't the only text that they would point to. There's others in kind of higher. Critical world tend to be driven by their desires. Not just not just what the text says right. Yeah yeah because i'll tell you If you go on social media and like the deconstruction and delicate movement you will hear. You'll you'll see these little sixty second videos of people saying hey you know. The sin of sodom wasn't Sexual sensuousness it wasn't sexual immorality. It was a hospitality. And they'll give you all these little citation quotes but the reality is what jinja said is is exactly the way to think through this in terms with john. J. t. but starting with what jim said about. There's been an outcry. God has come down to see. This is not the judgment isn't because these two people showed up and then saddam didn't behave the right way in terms or lot behaved wrongly When it comes to hospitality. There's been an outcry of wickedness going out. And it seems like i think genesis nineteen is trying to show us. Hey a huge part of that in late june said it's broader than the issue of homosexuality but it includes all sorts of sexual immorality. And this is. This is actually a really good example. Of how if you're out there on the youtube or the interwebs and you're you know re hearing some heartache and you're thinking i've never heard that before If it's a hot take like that that's ripped out of context. It's relying on you not knowing the context and based on the number of likes and shares. Those things get were pretty reliable. And that's why it's so important to j t and kyle on me for our listeners to know the people just know what what the bible says like past the pop quiz on it. Be able to know because because you can guard yourself against that That rush of adrenaline Oh my goodness someone's been holding something back on me and never told me this before just simply by knowing what comes before in the story what comes after in the story but old story arc is absolutely so it says the men said to lot have you anyone else here. These angels speaking lot sons sons-in-law sons daughters or anyone you have in the city bring them out of the place for we are about to destroy this place. Because the outcry against people who become great before the lord and the lord has sent us to destroy it so a lot went out and said to his sons in law who were to marry his daughters up. Get out of this place for the lord is about to destroy the city but he seemed to his sons in law to be jesting but as morning dawn. The angels urged lots say up. Take your wife and your two daughters who are here less you be swept away in the punishment of the city but he linger him and his wife and two daughters by the hand that laura being merciful to him and they brought him out set them outside the city and if they brought them out one set escape for your life do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley escape to the hills. Lot said ono my lords behold you're servant has found favor in your side. You have shown me great kindness and saving my life. But i cannot escape to the hills less disaster overtaking the united die behold. The city is near enough to flee to. Let me escape there. Is it not a little one in my life will be saved. He said to him. Behold i you this favor also that i will not overthrow the city of which you've spoken escape there quickly fracking do nothing till you arrive there for. Therefore the name of the city was called zohar. So we this like like lot. Basically him and his family has to basically be dragged out of the city right. I mean like their late. It's like he says he lingers there like his sons in law think he's jesting and even lot on the next morning is kind of like stupid to do about like you guys want some breakfast got some biscuits here. You know like he just seems to be very laid back about this whole thing well and the fact that his sons in law thought he was jesting makes you wonder like what was his delivery when when we went over there and said you know it was it like. Oh hey guys these guys are telling me we ought to let you know. I mean like i don't know but but it it not only that but once they've been dragged kicking and screaming and sat outside the city limits and he's told fleet of the hills. He's like i'd really. I'm really more of a city guy you know. Can i mean it's like dude. Do what these guys are saying. He still is grasping for what feels comfortable Even as he's being dragged out of the place that has been his great comfort and also would be his great demise. Absolutely this theme of all of that though is is yes here. You have this punk. Who's lingering jesting not. You're gonna see he. He's he is making this virtually impossible for these messengers to save his life. But obviously the key here is found in verse. Sixteen the lord being merciful to him. Yeah that's just one thing that is Maybe to our our modern sensibilities we. We don't understand why and that really is an opportunity for us to pause and see how radically generous and gracious god's mercy actually is it actually does in can come to those who are entirely undeserving of it. That that makes basically no attempt to be one who should be shown mercy. He is one who should be shown mercy but yet he's a recipient of god's mercy even as we know we're not there yet but you get to the end of the passage in in verse twenty nine so it was that when god destroyed the city's at the valley god remembered abraham insent lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which lot had lived and it's because god remembering his covenant yeah abraham which spares lot again not because of anything he has done but because he is a recipient of god's unbelievably radical mercy. I think it's good for us to remember in the midst of a story like this. That are temptation will be an you even have heard in my own voice. Can you believe this guy tone and it's important for us to remember that when we're looking how we ourselves fit into this story the character who most incites are outraged is the one with whom we should most likely identify And so To see ourselves as having a parallel to lot is what we should be thinking. We should be thinking. How am i like lot in his wife. When i've been pulled from the wreckage of what i had made my life into apart from christ. How am i still looking longingly over my shoulder. Lot's wife does what israel will do. They keep looking back toward egypt. Saying it was better there. She's a type of of of what egypt of what israel will continue to do in the wilderness And we're like that. We have those moments where we think it was better in egypt. Even though it's against all reason that we would think that so as we express our outrage toward lots bull headedness. i think it's always a good reminder to to go the person. I'm maddest out in the story is the one who i should associate myself with an ask. How how does this point to me. Yeah that's a really good insight. That incite a discipleship. Point is when he talks about matthew chapter. Sixteen or here in luke chapter seventeen. He literally says remember lot's wife whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it over loses. Life will keep it is. That is that lot's wife sought to keep her life and also experienced god's mercy at the same time and jesus telling us that's not an option. You cannot keep your life. You can't look over your shoulder to what you used to have and how either your sinfulness your way of being Brought pleasure and fulfillment you you have to totally forsake it. And this is paul and relations to twenty right i. It is no longer. I who live i do not look back at at paul or saul. Although he still saw. I'm looking back at his former way of life. I am now pressing forwards driving. Four report lies ahead in his life. That i have in christ. Now we've mentioned are a couple of times here so let's get to or the sun going on it. Says the sun is on the earth when lot came zohar then the lord rain on sodom good more sulfur and fire from the lord out of having any overthrew the cities and all the valley And what grew on the ground all the inhabitants the but lot's wife behind him look back and she became a pillar of salt. Now you've already you've already you've already given away the lead here jan but this is a picture of israel right the original audience. They're looking back and they're all kind of pining for something. That was clearly evil wicked and wrong. But what is there a significant. Let me just ask you. Is there significance assault here. Absolutely absolutely i mean you get into the later books in the pentateuch and you find that salt added to anything any any sacrifice That is meant to be a memorial to the everlasting covenant of god. We think of salt. We think of it as something that makes food tastes better but in ancient audience understood as a preservative. And you heard in the in the verse that jt read From the new testament Don't seek to preserve This this this memory of past sin and so god essentially turns lot's wife into a preservative like it's a it's a parable a frozen parable there on the plane Because she wanted to keep it inside of your heart. And what god knows is that if she harbors that seed inside of her heart she will carry it to the next place that she goes and it will grow and So there you go and so you'll either be. You know as she says you'll either be the salt of the earth he will be that which preserves righteousness or you will preserve unrighteousness. Absolutely well the next instant like just to kind of land here on this story. I know we've been going awhile here but just gosh it's been it's it's there's so much to cover It says that lot went about zorro lived in the hills with his two daughters. Now hold on he leaves. Zo are for the hills that he told the angels right. I don't want to go to those hills. Cash that yeah. He tells the angels. Please don't make me escape to the hills. Let me go to this other little town and then it says okay. Now lot went up out of lynnwood daughters said he just tried to prostitute. Hey but a in the in the hills. Well yeah why do you think he's afraid. Delivered zohar probably looked around and went bad stuff going on here too. I mean yes. I think that probably the best way to understand. And it says that he's living up there lived in a cave of this two daughters the firstborn said of the younger our fathers old. There's not a man on the earth to come into us. After the manner of all the earth come our father drink wine and we will lie with him that we may preserve offspring from our father so the they made their father drink wine that night and the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose. This is this. Feels like a shot for shot. Remake of the story after the flood doesn't it like except with noah and his sons live in his daughters. I mean it's this. Look look our father is over there. Basically naked industry like. Let's get drunk with wine and get him naked and ashamed. Essentially is is what happened. So you have like god's rescue of a family through judgment with the attention that they will go on to live righteously Outside of that and yet what do they ended up doing. They ended up naked and ashamed walking on this. This just feels feels very on the knows. It just feels very mirroring of that account. I think i would press on a little of what's going on here. From the standpoint of these are two virgin daughters raised in sodom and so what is their view proper sexuality they either don't have one at all but i actually. We're going to see that. They have some sense of the importance of sexuality because they believe that there's no way for them to have offspring and we just have seen all through this story that sarah no matter how much power beauty she has perceives herself to be hopelessly broken if she cannot produce a child. So i think we're seeing here A reaffirmation of that. That sense of if i can't produce a child than what is my purpose. My whole purpose is to produce children up. So there's that playing into the story. I'm not obviously not saying that. What happens here is is right. It's not the right answer. But i think You can see how if you had grown up in the environment. These girls had grown up in This might be a place that they would go to as they're looking around and i've even heard some commentators say that with the likelihood that they've had very little exposure to any outside contact just based on the fact that they were virgins and sodom that they would have viewed what had happened to sodom and gomorrah as basically the end of the end of the world. And they're wondering. How do we even propagate the human race. so i don't know if that's accurate or not but that's one of the takes i've heard on it I feel actually a lot of compassion for them in this story and It is not to say that not to justify how the story plays out. And i think the more important piece is what we find there at the end Where it describes the names of the children because we find that this this this Dangerous living that lot has done is now bearing the poisonous fruit of offspring who are an unholy offspring who then become the future enemies of the children of god. Yeah but but not just the future enemies of the children of god but because what men have meant for evil god is purpose for good right. We talked about that because the mobile and the ammonites do become some of the most contentious or israel. And there's no doubt about that but there's also a young woman who comes from the mo abides is going to end up being the redemption story. Like where this is a bad. The mobile bites beginning a bad bad way. But through the story of ruth this moa bias widow we get a redemption not just of reuss life but of this line in particular and through that redemption. We get the redeemer. Jesus christ and it's it's an incredible thing when you think about like this is a bit like the way genesis nineteen ends is really grimy ugly brutal violent gross and yet through that god ends up accomplishing a story of redemption. Both for ruth as a moa by and moa bites but for jesus christ the lord. Yeah i think you could probably make the argument. That ruth's story the undoing of the story of these two girls Let's go out there a lot. Man it's a good thing. We didn't try to bite off more than we could chew in one episode or in one season run. Yeah gosh ruth is the undoing of the story of these girls mao. Listen if you've been listening along with us. Thank you If you've made it to the end of the hour long episode. I'm saying i'm saying now and you might hear this later. This episode might be divided into two parts that will release in two parts. Hearing me say this right now and we did that then. Maybe you were frustrated that we did that. But if you're hearing me say this right now and we didn't do that that we chose not to do it and use after a sixty minute episode. So so engineer brad. Don't cut any of this. This is just how we'll end the plane But if you've been following along with us thank you. We really hope you enjoyed the discussion. You can join the conversation by finding us on social media at knowing faith podcasts on facebook instagram twitter patriot dot com slash. Podcast as well if you want some more behind the scenes kind of stuff and in our next episode. We'll continue explore the story of genesis as unfolds. Hope you enjoyed the discussion grace. And perhaps you're wondering if pursuing advanced theological training is the next step in your service of christ. Southern faculty members will be available online friday april sixteenth. Help you explore the answer. Southern seminary's virtual previewed as a great time to learn if moore theological training is right for you and if so how you can make it work for your family. Southern seminary virtual preview day is live online friday april. Sixteen th at one. Pm eastern reserve your spot now at sp dot edu slash preview.
#120 A Massive Problem
"Pastors need more theology. Not less the same is true for those leading small group ministries if the next step for you is additional theological training please registered today to attend southern seminary preview day on october fifteen when considering seminary. There's no more important question than who will be teaching you during preview day at the southern baptist theological seminary. You'll spend your time with our faculty over meals and in their classrooms for just twenty five dollars. Southern will cover two nights of lodging as well as all your meals on preview day attendees are also automatically entered to win. One of several thousand dollar scholarships southern preview day momentous and this year. It's back on campus. Reserve your spot now by going to sb dot. Edu slash preview come see how attending seminary can be life changing for you and your family that s bt s. dot edu slash preview. I'm gene welcome. Jt english good morning to both of you. Hey how's it going. How are the pugs i get. I see the pictures of the pugs. But how how are they. While the kyle the kyle busch pug now when i look at their best lives they are. You know it's a little hot for them in the summer. They're not very heat tolerant. Which is why we bought them for texas and habitations. So they're currently Lounging in the kitchen where it's nice and cool. Yeah okay do you. post pictures of them. Sitting looks to me like they're hurting themselves. Sitting is it like most uncomfortable waitress. It possible like are their bodies designed to sit like that crazy way or are they. They hurting themselves the whole time i just think gravity is just unkind to the pug and the pug is just constantly weighed down not just by gravity but just cares the world. You know the pumps are really worried about what's going on in the news. They're super concern about this spike. In cova cases they have a lot on their minds. Yeah yeah. I bet they do. They certainly look depressed. If that's what you're saying but here we are out another episode jumping into thr romans. Three one through twenty and if he weren't depressed like sitting hug before this passage you might be after this passage because this one this is not a bright spot in the romans letter. It's just it gets bad before it gets better. And so we're gonna jump into romans. Three one through twenty. And oh i'm going to roll the imaginary dyson say jin. Can you read romans. Three twenty yes. Starting in verse one. Then what advantage has the jew or what is the value of circumcision much. Every way to begin with the jews were entrusted with the oracles of god. What if some were unfaithful. Does their faithlessness. Nullify the faithfulness of god by no means. Let god be true. Though everyone we're aligarh as it is written that you may be justified in your words and prevail when you are judged but if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of god. What shall we say god is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us. I speak in human way by no means for. Then how could god judge the world. But if through my lai god's truth bounds to his glory. Why am i still being condemned as a sinner and why not do evil. The good may come. As some people slanderously charge us with saying their condemnation is just what then are we jews any better off no not at all for we have already charged that all both jews and greeks are under sin as it is written. None is righteous. No not one. No one understands. No one seeks for god all have turned aside together they become worthless. No one does good not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of aspects is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed. Blood in their paths are ruin and misery and the way of peace. they have not known. There is no fear of god before there is now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to god for by works of the law. No human being will be justified in his sight since through. The law comes knowledge of sin. Alright fluffy today guys. Just some just lighthearted truths for us from the apostle paul. So paul opens up. Then what advantage has jew or what is the value of circumcision. Why why would. Paul asks that rhetorical question at this point. Because he's a dispensationalist offense out. It's all it's all the now. I mean ultimately he's talking about you say talking about jew gentile relations but i think even more than that where he's appealing to is the nature and character of got like who is god in. What are his promises to his people and can be trusted. I mean also minister rhetorical question. He's asking those first. Few verses is god is their faithlessness going to reflect on god's ability to make keep promises yes absolutely. Yeah paul is he. He's asking this question because he's just told them. Hey be careful to not sit in judgement on one another because you're not better than each other comes out of it comes into chapter three. And he's like he's assuming the question they'll be asking at this point right now. He anticipates their objection and he begins to address. It and paul does this. Through his letters but in romans in particular it's really pronounced. He'll open up a lot of these sections with questions like this. Like you think about roman six right what shall we say are we to continuance in that. Grace may abound. He's he's anticipating an objection and that's what he's doing here in chapter three. So what advantage did the jews have. He says much. In every way to begin with the jews were entrusted with the oracles of god. The oracles of god. What is that. yeah. I mean the simplest way to think about the words of god like god spoke with and dealt directly with the people of israel. I mean at various points in their history. They heard audibly. The voice of god you know. And so if anyone had reason for faith it was the children of israel they were given the law an explicit terms and so therefore they're disobedience of it is all the more evident and that's one of the points that all is going to be making as he talks about their relationship to the law but instead of using the law as a means for humility. They used it and you could even argue in this instance that he's addressing. The men. temptation has always use it to self elevate by garnering favor instead of be self abased before the god who sent his son to fulfil it. Yeah we talked about this a little bit when we were dealing with chapter two. But i guess the the privilege that israel has the standing they have in the history of redemption is not meant to be lorded over the town. It's meant to be a place of covenant confidence not of this kind of always trying to redraw the same boundaries. They had moments in their life with god and yet they seem to be far more interested in continuing to be distinguished among gentile christians that they do being in the distinct covenant favor of god. And that's a problem. And i think paul is trying to be honest here in a way like i think. Paul is looking at the history of redemption as a jewish christian synthesizer of gentile thought and he is saying. Hey listen israel did receive the words of god in a distinct way than other nations and it is different than the relationship. The gentiles have in many ways. The gentiles have access to the oracles of god. Or the word of god by his mediation of them through his written word that he gave to his covenant people israel. And that's different. You know that is a different kind of relationship. And i think paul is trying to just be honest with the fact that listen jewish christians you do have a unique place in the history of redemption. But maybe you're not using that the way that you should be you're exactly right. Kyle agree with everything you said. They're certainly lording it over the gentiles. But it's almost like their proximity to god's saving purposes has also led to a sense of complacency in their own holiness that it's like because we have god's word and because we have spiritual legacy and tradition. That isn't that of the gentiles. It's led them to complacency which allows them to kind of rest on their laurels of quote unquote doing the works of the law. Which is supposed to distinguish them. But it's not actually resulting in faith. Which is what halston lead us into next. It's not it's not leading to self reliance or trust in the lord is actually leading to self complacency one of the ways that the commentary amusing most closely in my sermon prep for here at storyline. And also for this is cranfield. Commentary to bit older and we'll technical but he says sometimes special position in god's redemptive purposes has also led to self complacency in for me that just hit strong like. Oh my goodness sometimes. This paul's going for here is our nearness to god doesn't always result in greater holiness. It can we can think that it means. I've a dignified position in god's redemptive purposes which therefore means that can be less reliant upon god more reliant on what a dangerous place that has to be right in. Israel falls into that pit because in verse three. Paul brings them right there. What if somewhere unfaithful does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of god by no means. Let god be true though. Everyone we're alive as it is written that you may be justified in your words and prevail when you are judged so paul is commenting on kind of telling the story. That's exactly what happened with israel. Was that kind of spiritual complacency that led to faithlessness. He's asking again. He's assuming a question that maybe the gentile christians would be asking at this point which is like hey israel had a moment and they were faithless or maybe jewish christians are asking well we were faithless. Does that mean that. God is also going to abandon his promises or does it nullify his covenant faithfulness and paul saying not at all no no god remains faithful even when we are unfaithful and when i was studying this to teach at this felt to me a little bit like a whiplash. I don't know how it feels to. You like what advantage has the ju what is the value circumscription. Okay well to begin with here. It is they received the oracles of god then another series of questions. That seem unrelated. Well what if some of them were unfaithful does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of god by no means and i think more than anything. I think you have to see. This is paul. I don't know that these objections are these questions are necessarily the same thing i think. He's just almost rattling off the kind of objections and questions. That jewish christians might be raising the church in rome might be asking in light of what he's just said in chapter two right. Which is that like. Hey israel was unfaithful. We'll does that. Mean that god isn't going to be faithful to them. No he's going to be faithful but his faithfulness. It may not look like what you thought it was going to look like Right it may not look like israel exulted among the nations right now and i think it's that sense of much given much required right. It still is special that you're the one who is given much like no one's trying to say that it isn't a special thing to know that you were given much and receiving the oracles of god but much was required of you and i think also the whole time. I'm reading through this portion of romans. I'm always thinking of james. Were in chapter to his discussion about not showing favouritism and he talks about it. You know as it relates to rich and poor. And i think he's speaking in a very literal sense. Probably in terms of the context in which that letter is written but here we see a question about richness and nece as they relate to the resources that god has given to those who are now called according to his name and so the same thing is in play. It's like hey. Are we still looking to see. Who's the favorite child here Because we're we're way past that but that is our impulse. That's that's the impulse that i think He's addressing in the letter and it's an impulse that that we modern christians can identify with we've moved beyond conversations of who's a jew his agenda but there will always be perceived insiders and outsider as it relates to our place in the church and paul. A saying. we're not doing that. Yeah absolutely and in. Many ways is almost like paul is pointing to the way that god engaged with the people of israel in the midst of their faithlessness as a paradigm for how. He's going to do that. Both with jewish christians and with gentile christian right and i think that's one of the reasons why the connect is here. You know he goes on in verse. Five if our unrighteousness serves the show the righteousness of god. What shall we say that. God is on right just to inflict wrath on us by no means for then. How could god judge the world. But through my lai. God's truth abound his glory. Why am i still being condemned as a center. Why not do evil. The good may come as some people. Slanderously charges was saying their condemnation is again. You know if you feel like this passage is difficult. Tom schreiner in his commentary which is fantastic. So he calls this. The most difficult passages in romans romans three one three doesn't get a lot of attention. I mean arguably nine three twenty gives much more attention in this chapter and that could be in part because this passage right here it feels like there's a lot here like it's still very dense and a little bit convoluted if i'm being honest but i think the one thing that paul is really trying to get us to see here is this righteous and the righteousness of god is not merely god's perfect character. Righteousness is god's covenant fidelity even in the faithlessness of israel. Yeah i'm curious so one of the things. I'm hoping we can do for our listeners. As we go through some of these tricky passages in romans or the whole tricky letter that is romans is just helped them. Follow the flow of the arguments. And we've hit on it some but like if you were going to just summarize verses one through eight and a few sentences just the the force of what he's saying how would you say it. A god was faithful to reveal. His words to israel was faithful in the midst of israel's unfaithfulness and so he will continue to be faithful to all of those who placed their faith in him. Even when they're unfaithful k or g say jt. I'm not sure i can top that. It's really good. I i i think if i was trying to help. People at grasp onto one thing in particular is what i try to take. The beginning is all of paul's appeal throughout romans including here chapter three verses. One through eight is to the character of god into saving purposes through his promises into any rhetorical question that he asks he's asking based upon. Who do you think. God is not not. What do you think is not what do you think it means that you have as word or what do you think it means that you've been set apart as as jewish men and women but rather who is god and water his saving purposes in the world and specifically than related here. It's your no better off because you receive the promises of god. It is faith in your way that leads to him being able to demonstrate who he has to all nations. That's great that's really good. i receive it. I don't have anything to add. I think you guys did great that. I'm that i'm done. I'm not cast now. Genetics just complimented a quick man. But you're right kyle. This is a hard passage. I mean even setting for this. This is one of those passages where you're to get into this litany of quotes from the psalms here in a second like the challenges. Don't really stop. I mean i it just is. It's a hard passage for us to consider. This might just be a moment. Hope this gets another amen from gen is it's really hard to understand a passage like this without understanding the stoyel testament. And that doesn't mean you have to be tested scholar for our friends. Who are maybe just beginning their journey into understanding scripture but to understand what god was doing when he predestined selected in set apart for himself abraham isaac jacob and therefore the family of israel and that story is only going to continue as we get into future episodes in romans. Chapter four is. What does it mean. That abraham was justified not by works of the law but by faith and so this is a great opportunity at one of my professors in seminary used to say i love the new testament. It reminds me so much of the oldest and heave courses in old testament. Professor is he. And this romans is pointing back to the story of god's faithfulness to abraham isaac and jacob which of course we've covered in previous seasons. But it's just a chance rescue reminded about what god was doing. The old testament as well and that helps us understand what policies garrulous could well. And he's addressing. Both jew and gentile in this letter. But you can tell. He's focusing in on the jews and holing. He's holding them to account in many ways like he basically has said yeah he received the oracles of god and then he's gonna start quoting the oracles like basically. This is what you have. So why are you questioning me when this already been given to you which i mean. That's that's that's pretty direct and verse. Nine is a rearticulating of what he's tried to make clear in chapters one and two already which is are the jews any better off no not at all for we have already charged that all both choosing greeks are under sin so again. I want to be clear i it can read. This passage can read like police saying the jews have an advantage. They're better off and then a moment later going. The jews don't have an advantage. They're not better off. I think keeping my. I think paul is having. He's addressing vertical and horizontal realities for the jewish christians. And he's saying. Listen in the eyes of god you and the gentile christians have the same problem. Enter in need of the same solution now among yourselves and in the flow of history there is distinctiveness that should be honored and recognized but here in this passage he saying no. This is a problem for all of us and he begins solicit off and this passage that you'll hear often when we talk about the problem of sin. This passage gets brought up a lot. When you're thinking about sin wickedness total depravity just the inability we have to be righteous typically biscuits to proof texted when somebody is trying to talk about the impact of sin on our lives. Because it's a lot of quotes to point out that the the problem is big and bad problem right so the bad news here. Where does it come from. He's quoting a bunch. But where is he quoting from all these verses. Why is it look different in my bible when i look at it. Jin because you're supposed to go Where did that come from. And then when you start looking for where it came from sometimes in the case of what. He's quoting here. You might get a little alarmed. Because you realize that it's actually a mash up of several different places which could lead you to one of two conclusions. One is that paul didn't really know is old testament very well. The other is that he knew it so well that he was fluent in pulling different pieces together to make a point. I would urge you to go with premise number two. Yeah he definitely is moving quickly through a lot of passes here. It's almost like he's going extemporaneous and he's just like pulling so many different ones in. I can almost feel this from like the preacher boys. When you feel like you're there in the moment and it's like bang bang bang. You're just grabbing them from the storage. You've done the memorization you've done all. She's like bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-bum-ba and it's all true and it all fits together it. It just may not all be from the same place. Yeah i think it's pretty convicting honestly for a lot of us to ask a my that fluent in and being able to synthesize these different ideas into one cohesive. Thought you could make the argument that people do this badly frequently but here we get to see. How paul does it very very well and the the the judgment like basically where it lands here is not good. I mean just if we could just roll through these real quick none is righteous. No not one. No one understands. No one six for god. Everybody's turned aside. Everyone's become worthless. No one does good not even one then you get into this really like a visceral imagery. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive the venom of asp with an ass jt. I've no idea. Sounds like a bug or something break. It is actually a caterpillar but it's a caterpillar that's named after either of those things. Yeah audience if you don't know this. Jt has a death fear of snakes. So i've read michael story on address and send him toy snakes. Please please please okay. Do you wanna war broken award. It says their mouth full of curses and bitterness their feeder swith to shed blood their passer through misery the way of peace they have not known and then this last one which i honestly feel like this one is like when he. It's almost like when he writes. This went down when he says this one. This one feels like the mic. Drop moment. there is no fear of god before there is if you're familiar with the wisdom tradition if you're familiar with the idea of fear of the lord or fear of god. This one almost seems line. That's almost the heaviest thing you could say to. A jewish audience is like there is no fear of god before your eyes. That's an indictment. Yeah absolutely yep now. I think one person that i ask and i hear people ask me about this. They'll they'll say. Is this true of us. Like is it true of us. Is it christians before salvation. Is it true of christians after salvation. Is it true of just the jewish christians. Is it true of the jewish engine. Christians is time stamped. Is paul giving an indictment to just this group this church in rome or is he making a saying. This is an indictment. This is all of our condition under the law or under sin. Yeah i mean i. I think it's interesting that when you just kind of skim through it it. It reads like an expansion of genesis. Chapter three right. It's got serpent things. It's got depth things it's got all never it's always never Language got all the superlatives are in there. This is amplification of what happens in genesis chapter. Three it's the logical conclusion. What happens in genesis chapter three and because of the similarity of speech. I think what we're supposed to take from. This is is the human condition that when god said you will surely die. That's exactly what happened. And we all became conformed the image of the serpent instead of to the image of sun. Yeah i think that's well said this is all of our condition under sin. Apart from christ this is who we are by nature. And i think this is why this passage often gets brought up in discussions of a reformed doctrine of said or total depravity or whatever because it communicates both sides of the perspective of sid and its impact. You have both the. This is who you are. By nature you are unrighteous. No one is righteous or noticed as righteous. No not one. No one understands. No one seeks for god. It's both what is i think sprawl. He may have been taking this from somebody else. But sprawl says total. Depravity is not just that we're able to choose righteousness that were unwilling so total. Depravity is that we are it's an inability and unwillingness to choose righteousness and this. This passage is communicating. Yes by nature understand. We are unable and unwilling to choose righteousness and the collateral of that condition is our throat is an open grave. We use our tongues to deceive our mouths full of curses and bitterness. We shed blood. We create ruin and misery. We disrupt peace. All of these problems emerged from that broken unable unwilling condition. It kind of reminds me. Jt of when we talk about doctrine of sin in the storylines institute or in the forge program or at the training program at abc. Will we talk about agustin's posse non kar non-policy. Can you do that again for me brother. Yes so there's a. He's having a debate with a man named jesus he's and they're basically trying to figure out. What is the human state. Are we able to not send or we not able to not sin and that really is the one of the greatest debates in the fourth century where the church sides of the gusted in says we are living in a state that is non pasta non macari which you don't have to know what that means in latin but i can tell you it means in english it means you are not able to not sit in police disagreed. He said no no. You're able to not sense if you're looking like imagine that we're all looking at wight board together. If there was this linear line. Moving from genesis. Chapter one into forward police would say genesis chapter three. There's really no functional difference of humanity before the fall to after the fall in augusta would say the exact opposite after the fall. Humanity is functionally changed in one of the greatest points. Augusta's pointing to is exactly what policy right here is that after the fall every single human is born into sin in born into death therefore every mouth should be stopped. You have no standing before god regardless of what righteous deeds that you have and the whole world is now gonna hold account before god for the death that they now have participated in but i i wanna make this fuel real practical for people as i was reading this this morning to kind of prepare. One of the things that i was reminded of is is really what he's saying is despite the fact that jews. You claim to believe in god in gentiles whether you claim to believe in the jewish gutter other gods. You're living as functional atheists. If you believed that god is who he says he is. You would stop lying If you believed that. God is who he says he is. You would stop shedding blood if you believe that. God is who he says he is. You would stop to in that. You can go back through this list of the songs of of the coach in the psalms here and it really on in my own heart made me think how often do i- functionally live as an atheist Do i make concessions for my own. Sin or do i say well. Because you know. I'm a pastor so it's it got loves me therefore it's okay for me to whatever and that's exactly what paul is trying to convince the jews. They're doing themselves. Is that despite the fact that you've had the this nearness from god's covenant faithfulness to you. You've used that for self complacency in your own spiritual life which is actually a demonstration of your depravity and that just for me at home it was okay. What in my life do. I need to be aware of that. I might be living with a functionally theism whether it's my parenting. My marriage my pastor it just my own personal life and holiness and walk before god where i need to remind myself renew myself and experience the actual presence of galway in his covenant oh faceless despite my depravity but not that. I could continue to walk thin. Yeah from the aspiring musician to the church worship pastor the worship initiative dot com has resources for everyone the worship initiative is online training resource. That breaks down the most popular worship songs one video at a time and teaches the bible to build up worship teams and musicians around the world at the worship initiative dot com. You can find everything instrument training from professional musicians resources on how to be an effective worship leader from voices like shane and shane. Phil wickham john. Piper vince stuart and many more start learning more today by using code knowing faith for your first month free. Today's episode sponsored by the christian standard bible. The goal of the csb is to be faithful to the original without sacrificing clarity all the while maintaining both accuracy and readability beautiful designs and featured bible such as the csv she reach truth bible this esp study bible and the holy land illustrated bible. Everyone from adults teens. Children can find a csv bible that they enjoy. Fine your bible. Now up to seventy percent on. Learn more at c. s. bible dot com that concept of functional. Atheism had a profound impact. On the way that i think about my choices and the way that i think about the character of god. It's one of the reasons that i've spent so much time. Trying to draw people into the study of the character of god That's how we live in. The fear of the lord is by i being oriented to his disclosure of himself and i think the functional atheist accusation is leveled at them in verse eighteen when he says there is no fear of god before there is the functional atheist is the one who professes a fear of the lord and then lives is is if he has done making excuses for himself because his actual reference point is human instead of divine but yet exactly but still doing a lot of religious activities. Yes yes so. You can think of like the prophets speaking to to israel you. I don't care about your offerings anymore. Because you're not caring for the for the oppressed. I don't care that you're singing songs to me. I don't care about your sacrifices. you're not living holy lives. that's what demonstrates a functional atheists weaken think participating participating in the things that a religious person should be participating in actuality. our lives demonstrate atheism. That's what paul's point is. Here is look at the nature and character of god. You're going to see two things you're going to see his righteousness and you're gonna see your unrighteousness and that's just a sobering thing. Yeah it is. And i think in in. Jti you can create me. if. I'm misrepresenting you here. You're not saying that when we look at this passage we should as christians see ourselves as fundamentally unrighteous any longer correct. You're saying absolutely not we look at the righteousness of god. We become aware of all the areas where we still have not conformed to the image of christ. Jesus is right. And i think that's an important note because i for as many times i've heard this passage preach i've heard it preached many times as if this is our present condition even after we have entered into christ but polls really clear in verse nine. These words are description of life under sin. that's life under sin is life apart. From christ this is the light that by major unrighteous. This is not a description of the fundamental standing before. God that a christian has in jesus romans four and five is going to be two whole chapters given over to demonstrating how that exchange happens. How that change happens but in this passage. We're getting a picture of. Hey now the remnants of that they remain even in our justified lives right And that's that functional. As the is where wilma slip into living in that old man. It reminds me of paul's words in romans. Seven when paul talking about life in christ say delight in the law of god in my innermost being bessie. Another law waging war against the law of my mind making me captive to the law said that dwells in my member right like members. So it's like this idea of like there. Is this battle that continues even after we are justified. But in this passage. Right here. I think one of the things that and i'm just trying to be sensitive. Maybe you maybe. Somebody's share this podcast with you and they're studying the bible with you or you're listening to this. This could come across as really heavy handed. But i think we have to say it. This is a passage that focuses on the other broken and wickedness of our lives. Apart from christ of what our condition is apart. From jesus apart from grace and under send. And if you're someone who has not yet placed your faith in jesus this is a description of where you stand and you may not like what it has to say but it is a description the point out the acceding sinfulness of our sin and to help us understand. The desperation of our problem is that there is nothing that you can do on your own accord. That's going to get you out of the full weight of this problem right here. It's not within your power you do not have the The power the potency. The potential to escape from this unrighteous standing under. You're going to need a divine power. You're going to need to do something and paul's already told you is that the good news is even in the midst of our faithlessness. God is still faithful. Either the midst of our faith faithlessness our disbelief. This god is still righteous. And i think that's important that maybe you're listening to this and you're thinking i don't know that i've ever trusted in jesus well apart from that. This is a condition of which we stand under just condemnation. Yeah i mean. I don't wanna say i love that kyle. But i do want to say that's true. That's true kyle. In one thing. That was striking to me. When i was first studying just a doctrine of total depravity in in systematic theology. This falls under the heading of anthropology which means what does it mean to be human or in incan fall under the doctrine of Theology which means what is the doctrine of sin or another way to think of it. As if we're if we're broadening the categories outside of christian categories is. Everybody has to answer this question. What's wrong with the world right and how to get there and whether or not you profess to be a christian or not. Everybody's trying to figure out what's wrong with the world and they're trying to make it better or right through some kind of atonement. Reconciliation process in what makes christianity a bit unique. And what. I think paul's doing uniquely here in romans is most world religions theologies philosophies your ideologies. Say that the problem is out side of you and your inherently good. And what you need to do is you need to happen to the world in a sense you need to be the one that that fixes things and christianity is saying something fundamentally different work. We're not saying that the problem is outside of you. We are saying that the problem is inside of you in that should not lead to. This is where you're going. Kyle some kind of self hating or some kind of self abasement rather self need. You need something. And that's where we're going to go. Further romans is. We need an alien. Righteousness something outside of us to make us better again. If it leads you to desperation it should not be desperation. That has not been met. And this is where the gospel become so beautiful for us is. We are desperate in our sinful state but christ has is more than enough of a payment for the broken this that is inside of us to make us right into reconciles. With god's good. I love all of this. I think these are really important takeaways. I do want to bring us back around to the audience for the letter as we finish out this the section because the audience for the letter is actually not unbelievers. You know it's it's those who are already in christ and so. I think it's always good for us to ask. And this is actually one of my beefs with the way this is actually not taking a shot at you Kyle when i say this. If i'm taking a shot at you i'll make sure it's planning glare but that in my experience Growing up in the church. I thought romans was an evangelism tool. I did not see that. It was actually pointed at believers. And so i'm not saying that it isn't an evangelism tool but i would be remiss if i viewed it i that and second or not at all as something that was instructive for those who are in christ and so i guess my question would be. How do you guys e. value as those who are in christ on reflecting on our fallen state apart from christ. How does that keep us in the fear of the lord will. I mean i think partly is that it reminds us of the great surprise and magnitude of grace it becomes increasingly easier just like we were talking about earlier with israel that has recipients of god's blessings and promises it can be it become it can become increasingly easy to grow spiritually complacent having received the great benefits of god's covenant love and fidelity. It can be easy for us to begin to presume upon his kindness and presume upon to to forget what are desperate condition apart from. Christ whys in a passage like this. And i'm sure i ju- engine talk christian church roman and certainly for myself as i reflect on it is. It's a sobering reminder that i was not entitled to the work of grace i was not deserving of god's grace i i am not married at god's grace i had no potential inmates to gain what only god could provide and i was in a radically desperate position. I think that's one of the reasons. Why so many songs are written about. Grace is because when you start to think about it in a passage like this. We often imagine the problem between us. And god is a gap. It's a nice visual image to associate with it but this passage is demonstrating that this gap is if it's a gap canyon. It's a chasm for which the mind cannot grasp how big it was and how deep it was. It's it's unreachable in the farthest dreaming of our imagination. And so i think that has been our hearts towards gratitude. Thankfulness praise and adoration. Yeah i think. Our hearts are bent toward forgetfulness and minimization you look at the history of the nation of israel. They didn't just get liberated from egypt. They wanted to forget egypt as quickly as possible. And i think one of the ways you can read. What policy saying here in summary would be i am the lord your god who brought you up out of egypt like you gotta remember what it looked like to be dead because if you don't you're not gonna continue to trust in me and and walk in freedom way that i've designed. Yeah i don't think. I clearly maybe articulated the whiteboard thing. We're doing with with augusta and play just but you brought it back with this question. Then is what happens at the first tree. Genesis chapter three determines what happens at the second tree in the gospels. The cross of christ in whatever problem we have is the problem that god is going to come and solve in. if we're taking pelagia s.'s. Point which is that yet. You're you're kind of as center but it's not really your nature. It's really that you need a better option or better model. just choose. God is what he's saying he's saying you're neutral nothing changed to humanity or you fundamentally at the at the tree of adam and eve so basically what you need is jesus to be an example for you to be a better person and gusting says. No what's happened to you. This goes to kyle's point. Is this infinite chasm between spiritual life and spiritual death in what you are in need of is a resurrecting faith of faith that can bring you back from the dead. And so if this is as you're you're absolutely right jim. It's written to an audience of christians. There being reminded just how far the chasm was and what god has done on their behalf. It's good well. That's good place for us. The land the discussion today and our next episode. We're gonna chat with dr michael kruger about romans three versus eighteen through thirty one. If the next step and your service to christ and his church is additional theological training please registered today to attend southern seminary's preview day on october fifteenth for just twenty five dollars southern will cover two nights of lodging as well as all your meals. On preview day you can reserve spot by going to s bts dot edu slash preview like. I said we'll chat with dr krueger on the next episode. We also have some great episodes coming up with jarvis. williams. Tom schreiner courtney doctor and also if you have not had a chance to check out our new podcast the family discipleship podcast would strongly encourage you to check it out some of the guests that are over there. I don't know people like Chilling wilkin jt. Listen kyle wurley matt chandler trillion nubile our friend caroline smiley and of course the great host adam griffin and cassie bryant chelsea griffin. It's a great show. go check it out. Hope you enjoyed the discussion grace and peace.
#115 I've Got A Question For You
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Say forty dollars by using the application way recode knowing type it in as one word get started today teach well and disciple deeper by going to sbs dot edu slash discipleship. You're listening to knowing faith. A podcast of training the church. Boo boo boo boo. Burn this cowardly driving. My co-host jon wilkin jt. English what's up. Y'all hey we've spent all day together today. And i love your this unit could be pretty salty word. The audience On we have been together for quite a long period of time today and You had a lot of questions so many questions. I wish we could get to them. All needs minute a question on facebook or instagram or twitter. Let me just say thank you. There was a ton of them. And i've tried to grab them from facebook from twitter from instagram from patriot patrons subscriber. Don't worry we're doing a whole separate patron qna. And i think we answer all the questions that were submitted on patriotic and so typically the over. Glad we're going to jump right in because there were a lot of questions. And i want to make sure that we get into this pretty quickly. We got lots of questions on instagram about the graham like a ton. How should we approach the graham. Some suggests it's not a biblical tool My friends are using ideogram. What should i think about any graham. i've heard that the nfl is actually satanic. Do you guys have any thoughts on satanism. In india graham in listen only if you get the vaccine and use the graham that you read. Yeah that's right. yep thank you hlavac. Yeah probably will get candy. Live texas you for that. We have officially now been flagged in the apple podcasts. So any agreement. We were actually just talking with a group of people like today where they mentioned a book that i read recently and i just got and just tell you. It's a great book that we weren't well worth reading by todd. Wilson who's a pastor theologian. He's great the book is called. The ingraham goes to church wisdom for leadership worship and congregational. Life i've read it. It's a good book to kind of how the can be helpful. It gets into a little bit of the story of it. And todd is a pastor theologian. He's not just like he's not like instagram fan. Boy can really situate it within the context of wisdom. And that's where it should be situated. I just wanna be clear. The any agreed to be situated within the context of wisdom being the bible does not speak authoritatively about personality tests. And these kinds of inventories which should give us caution to be prescriptively. Yes about him and prescriptively know about them. It should caution us to not be very quick to adopt them and to never essential is them. That's i think. The biggest danger of the program is to begin to essential is an identity marker outside of the identity we have in christ jesus And so but we definitely know the any graham is like any other tool or like any other tool. it's like other tools and that we're one body with many members. Goddess created image bearers diverse image bearers. And we're trying to navigate what it means to live as a distinct image bearer with other people who are like an unlike us and if the india grant is a helpful tool at getting better about wisely navigating that great if it starts to become the prison by which you view yourself and or other people i would probably be hesitant to use it matter. I was gonna say another thing. I would just say that ten can tend to happen. is if you're more interested in the nfl graham. Then you are in the things of god. Then i got some questions for you because i know and and i would. I'm using graph as a catch all now for personality tests because i do think. Get super into Enough about you. God let's talk about me And and so if you're someone who uses personality chests to reinforce love of self or fascination with self then probably don't do that because that's terrible but if it's a tool to understanding i actually think so like with any game in particular i i went to a one of those trainings and I thought you know the definitions. Were interesting to me to help me think about how to interact with people. And i think as long as you're not that is one hundred percent true all the time about a person who is this number and i don't know what the wings are. It was a lot to take in and apparently because of what they say. My number is. I wouldn't carry about any of it anyway. So great but I just i mean thinking you know useful to appoint in terms of like knowing how to love our neighbor. I think personality tests can be useful for those kinds of things. But if we're more interested in in love of neighbor to the exclusion of considering love of god Then i think that's where it gets a little wacky whether whether in satanic or not i think it just can be used for for not very good purposes. I grew both of you. I will second Kyle's recommendation of this book. Todd wilson did his as the university of cambridge in new testament. So he's not like a theological slouch like he loves. Jesus loves the by wapping. Sometimes people wonder well up in any game. Any graham guru wrote this. They really left. The bible and todd is one of those guys. He's the president for the center for pastor theologians and organization that i'm pretty involved with and when i first started talking about this if i'm honest i was skeptical Then i had them come do some training for us on the village and it was gold like it was really really good stuff. And the way that he positions it. And i think the way the ingraham should be positioned as the the first the the loss filled in in loving god and neighbor. As you love yourself and a lotta. The theo boroughs like out on twitter could grow in some self awareness and understanding of who they are -gratulations. Now they're coming for you. I'm ready to kyle worley. You can find me on twitter mosaic. Church richardson no. But like i'm serious. So there's often the group that wants to be involved with any graham most needs it the group that wants you most involved in the ingraham needs to read about the attributes of god and so there probably needs to be a bit of of a Talking out of the. I'll maybe is the right way to say this An one other caveat. I'll give is. I've seen the go really badly when it becomes a license to remain in patterns of sin just a one therefore i. This is how i do it. I'm never gonna change. And so never. Let the grampian obstacle to your sanctification but let it be fuel for greater simplification brent on instagram asked. Is it wrong to present bible stories to kids in ways that leave open room for misinterpretation solely to make it more palatable for example not mentioning the massive loss of life when telling the story of the flood so like basically like hey there are some stories that are pretty hard to hear and with some narrative details. Is it wrong to leave out some of those narrative details for kids. Well i think anytime you're dealing with children. You're wanting to communicate things at developmentally appropriate levels for them so for example. You probably wouldn't open to this story of judah and tamer with a small child right. There's time for that story as they get older Or there's a way to tell that story that communicates you know what was what was at stake without giving the detail. That's not age appropriate for a child and so yeah If a child isn't able to read it on their own you know then they. They're relying on you to give them the sense of the story and i think someone who sets a good example of how to do. This is sally. Lloyd jones with the jesus storybook bible where she doesn't sacrifice any of the tension of the story in the telling it but she presents it in ways that are age appropriate so No you don't want to change the meaning of a story to make it age appropriate for a child but you you do probably want to give the content to them in ways that are appropriate to their level of understanding. Good next question danielle patriot. What's happening when jesus breathes on the disciples in john twenty just to remind you what john twenty says on the evening of that day the first day of the week the doors being locked the disciples were for fear of the jews came and stood among them and said to them. Peace be with you. When he had said this he showed them his hands and aside then the disciples were glad when they saw the lord. Jesus said to them again. Peace be with you as the father has sent me even so i am sending you. And when he had said this he breathed them and said to them receive the holy spirit. If you forgive the sins of any they are forgiven them if you hold forgiveness from them or from any it is withheld. What's going on here. I want and jt to go first. Yeah what do you think. Jt things first. Something theological is happening. So i received some trinitaria in relations here. We see the beginning of john. Jesus the son is is spoken of as being the logos. The son is is with god and is god an john fifteen sixteen and seventeen. You see jesus explaining okay. Not only am. I the son of god but also i'm leaving in the helper is going to come. He's going to come and he's going to. he's the he's the helper he's the spirit of truth. He is only going to say those things that here's me saying. And so we see john going to great lengths to develop a pattern for us for trinitaria language. From the father through the son and now that jesus's ascending the ministry of the holy spirit is going to be the presence of god it enjoys them empowers so first thing trinitaria theological language. This is now. The mission of jesus spirit to carry forward through his disciples so for us that means that we have the spirit of christ At at conversion breathe in us it regenerates us empowers us in dwells us for greater holiness in mission. that's point number one trinitaria theology but there's also biblical theology happening here if you look back at at at what he says. In chapter twenty. Jesus is is breathing out upon the disciples initiative reminds us of genesis chapter two when god is creating humanity where genesis chapter two for seven says this then the lord god formed the man of the dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living creature. He also should hear themes of ezekiel but these dry bones will one day live again. If you're thinking canonical lee. Humanity is created from the dust. And as paul. We'll tell us in. First corinthians chapter fifteen that we are. The men of dust formed after the man of dust but there is a man who has come from heaven. Jesus this man from heaven who is doing the exact same thing that he did in genesis chapter two breathing life into an onto his creation. In here you have. These disciples being given second birth or second life by the same creator. God who has now come to recreate them in his image scan. I don't have anything to add to that. Kyle i dare you nope. Nope sleep before. Daniel samuel unpatriotic should worship leaders include spontaneous worship into a sunday service or is that reserved for personal worship. Only so sam i. i'm. I'm gonna assume that what you mean here is like by spontaneous worship. I'm assuming that you're talking about like okay. Like the in between leadership and our songs were maybe like. There's not a song that that person was leading. They begin to sing a prayer that the lord puts on their heart or something like that. So that's how. That's how. I'm reading this question. I don't maybe know maybe you're asking. Maybe there's a spontaneous worship that your specific kind of thing that you're asking about the i'm not familiar with but if you're asking hey should worship leaders follow the The leader of the holy spirit while they lied. Yeah they should do that. Should they do so in a way that runs in contrast with the witness of scripture. Now should they do so in a way that draws attention to self no should they do so in a way that is consistent with the purpose of the liturgy a service which is public participation of the saints know should they do so in a way that disorders the congregation no they should lead in leading with and keeping with the direction of the holy spirit and i can imagine and i have been in services where the worship leader does break away from a song and praise and a time and i. It seems like maybe he was not intending to do so or says. Hey you know what we were going to do this. But i just feel like should sing this song again or we would have sung this but i really just feel like a light of that. The message we've just heard that. I think we should sing this. Could we sing that together. I've seen pastors get up and say hey we were going to do this Just like the words move. And and i want to step into this instead. Abba time of prayer. You guys follow along with me. I think all of those are acceptable as long as they're done in accordance with the witness of scripture and submission to it in an orderly way in a way that dresden draw attention to self but draws attention to christ. I think those are non-negotiable caveats and also that honors the childcare workers who are watching your children yes amen. Yes thank you well. I think we can assume that when the spirit moves Then we're gonna experience spontaneity and that seems to be the exact opposite of what paul tells the church in corinth when the spirit moves. You should experience order according to paul. He says it's in first. Corinthians chapter fourteen. The whole problem with the church in corinth is about disordered lord. Supper disordered worship service. And after going through. Hey here's what a worship service should look like. I grant the chapter fourteen twenty six and following. He finally gets down to verse. Thirty three and says for god is not a god of confusion but of peace. And that's not just meant to be some theological abstract truth. It's meant to be your worship services should be ordered because your worship services are led by the spirit and the spirit doesn't bring disorder and spontaneity. But rather he brings order in peace. That's really good all right. That was really good. Sarah on patriot asked the question. I get this question all the time. It's a really good one Why in psalm. Fifty one four does david say against you. Only have i sinned when he clearly has sinned against both bethsheba and your ryan. How can i make sense of this. J gives say yeah. This is a great question because it's a question and so if you think about the way that the narrative plays out in second samuel even the words that nathan. The prophet uses when he confronts david about his sin. Clearly show that davidson is against iraq and bethsheba And also against god and so. I think that the way that we understand the psalms is that they are a poetic expression of a truth and they use language in poetic ways so in psalm. Fifty one later on. David is going to say. Let the bones that you have broken. Rejoice but we know that god didn't literally break his bones and so he's using a poetic expression to make a point about repentance and said that's what we're seeing earlier on in the psalm. When he makes this statement as well. He's using hyperbole. He saying against you and you alone. Have i sent in other words. The essence of all sin is that it is a crime against god and any sin against our neighbor is ultimately as a sin against god himself because our naked neighbor bears the image of god. So he's he's using poetic language to heighten his point but because it's poetic language we read it litter lee instead of literally and we read it in relation to what we would take as a literal a more literal telling in the historical narrative that we find in second samuel. We let them live together. Good brenton twitter. What common decisions and ways. Churches unknowingly undermine a new ecclesial. Ogies so thank you britain Ecclesial doctrine of the church. What britain's asking is what are common decisions in ways. Churches unknowingly undermine a healthy view of the church. Well one i. There are a lot can happen in a number of ways and sometimes it's not i mean gosh i would imagine. There are ways that i am unknowingly. Undermining a healthy cleese yala g. Now i'm not. I don't have no pretense. That mosaic is filled with perfect pastures. That we've were adequately depicting the all that god has but there are some some blocks. I think that our icebergs that it seems like a pretty common for churches the hit i think one would be confusion on the titles of the officers of the church where you'd see pastor used indiscriminately wise. This person pasture that person's not a pasture. And what's the difference between a pastor and an elder here right like so. I can see it as an honorary title instead of having an actual role. Yeah that's important and the same would go for deacon like okay. What a deacon here. what's a minister. Here what are they different And then how do these pastors and ministers or elders and deacons how do they relate to other staff so. I think that's the way where there could be. Maybe not knowingly or even certainly Intentionally an undermining of healthy ecclesial aji I think there are other ways of for example like why. I think that there are spaces for the church to allow the practice of the ordinances in other contexts. I don't think they should be encouraging that. Like hey go do this on your own So i would be. I would say that's the way that churches can undermine a healthy ecclesial. Is that the ordinances. Just become like you might have somebody who's like yeah me and some friends had some pizza and dr pepper. And you know had communion together in nyc what No you didn't have together. I'm sorry but a more simple way. I think that. Just saying i. I more than anything. The way to undermine Healthy ecclesial adji is for people to not know what the churches just to never do substantive instruction and teaching on the church so that would be a few ways you can't think of anything yep I would say if we think that the gathering is for adults and the children have no place in there. I've done some writing on this and i know recently it's top of mind only because during the pandemic in particular when children were worshipping with families. You know when everybody was even if it was in your living room Many of them had never seen baptism. Or the lord's supper because they had had lived their church existence in a separate space and so at all. These questions began to bubble up. What is that when my witnessing. What's the significance of that and hearing people's testimonies. And so i think that we we often For pragmatic reasons. Maybe have children's church having simultaneously to what's going on in a big church and that we should be looking for ways to children for children to have regular exposure and participation in Those those spaces. And i'm not saying everybody always over. Here's this comment and thinks that i'm saying throwaway children's ministry and just have every childbirth through twelfth grade in the service. I'm not saying that. But i am saying that. A school aged child is old enough to be brought into the service given exposure to. What's happening there and invited into it Whether that's once a month or whether it's every week depending on how your church is structured but it should be more top of mine doubly from an ecclesia logical standpoint. I think one of the biggest. I'm actually literally in middle of the sermon series as we're recording. This called the local church called to be a family and one of the just talking to my members about what some of the challenges or misconceptions that you've either heard about the church or currently experience and a lot of it has to do with you know people think the church is just like any other membership. I can kind of come and go as they please. I can go to the next. you know. It's almost like a ymca or twenty four hour fitness or anytime fitness membership. You just kind of come and go as you please. Rather than actually a family to belong to and i think the way you can clearly see that. Are you coming on sundays. In order to be an audience that watches an entertainment service. Or you coming together as a family to become witnesses of jesus's together jesus together as you seek to use gifts and give gifts away to the rest of the family and go go now. I was picking up on that. I've seen such a trend towards seeing the time in worship therapeutic self care instead of as You know what i need for the week in instead of something much bigger than that Okay here's a good one Thanks for the show notes. Oh hey we'll thank you. Susan talk show notes And i think you can we call. We'll just call her show. Katie can we call produce journey. Big shot to show no katie. Thank you getting. Suzanne on twitter asks. What are some good resources for connecting the family lines relationships and blessings curses from the old testament. Through to the new testament. What can help me not miss. The references original readers would have understood. There's of two questions here if you're looking for a good resource on connecting families relationships blessings curses there's a great little biblical theology. Book that i give to all the time it's cold. As far as the curse is found the covenant story of redemption. By michael williams. Very good. I like it a lot. And it's gonna trace of those teams so that may be a good way that you can trace some of the family lines covenant blessings and curses and all of that stuff from the old testament to the new testament far as the curses found Which also uses a line from my favorite christmas I'll take that every day. But what can help me not miss. The references original readers have understood. I don't know you you think of a resource for that. Yeah i mean. I think good one stop. Shopping is wall keys old testament theology. It's a little bit expense. I mean it's a big. It's a big book and it costs a little bit of money. But if you're going to spend time in the old testament you will use it. You'll get your money's worth out of it. And then i would just say that generally if you have a good study bible You're gonna find some of that in in the footnotes and so one of the ones that i have really enjoyed from the standpoint. And it's because they're coming from a covenant theology perspective is the reformation study bible. It has really good notes. The ten ten to speak toward those kinds of Questions cool hey. We got this in a lot of different ways. And i didn't included on here but i do think it's a question. Lots of people were like. Can we get a last exchange on christoph office now no when asked for that that is a lie jin go. It is like a flood of people. So here's what i'm gonna do. I want to give each one of us. Thirty seconds to basically and i'll go first and then authorized to jt and jen will will will live for you there at the end sound. Good sure i wanna. I wanna go west no jt. Now we're going now. I promise. I can't keep it to thirty seconds and you don't get to go last last all right so i'm going to set the timer for myself here. This is mostly for me because general probably knocked out of the park. I'm sure Okay here we go say the timer. Okay i'm i'm more comfortable than i was at the beginning of our study. Genesis saying that there are some appearances of the angel of the lord. That seem where where it seems like the audience or the people who receive that angelic visitation or responding in a way that seems disproportionate to be and djelic. I do not know what it is. I am more comfortable saying that. It could quite possibly beat the office or christoph in nature. Although i still have some hiccups when it comes to say clearly. That's it thirty seconds. That's my take on it. I am more comfortable than i was k. He wants to go last. Okay whatever running all eugene and go okay. I am comfortable with saying that. They are often in fact. I think that that's the way we're supposed to read them but to go beyond. That seems speculative to me. And i would say that the amount of speculation required to draw connections to chris. Dauphin interpretation are not necessarily worth our time because they don't add much to our understanding of the bigger Message of the stories in which these occurrences are set. I left five so you can take my extra five seconds. They're jt okay. I really appreciate that. I've been doing some Listening to somebody else theologian. That i highly respect that i think he just great who teaches this as a christophe and actually want to play the recording for you when we pick up the story tonight. So they've crossed the jordan. They circumcised. they've they've had the passover so they are ceremonially ready to go in and begin to take the land and then we see joshua. And what's he doing. Seems to be out scoping out what's going to happen next right. So it says that he's out. Let's start in verse. Thirteen joshua chapter five says. When joshua was by jericho he lifted up his eyes and looked and behold a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand and joshua went to him and said to him. Are you for us or for our adversaries okay. So let's just stop right there so we have this man and he has his drawn sword. And so what do you think. Why do you think joshua asked this question when he sees him and he's toward jericho. What do you think he's thinking. Is this someone coming out from jericho or is this one of my own people right and so he says are you for us or you for our enemies. And he's got his sword drawn. We'll talk about why that is in just a minute. And so the man as we'll call him in verse fourteen it says and he said no but i am the commander of the army of the lord. Now i have come. Had you look this up another translation. And what did it say says. Response to joshua's question is neither i'm not for you or for your adversaries but i'm the commander of the army of the lord. Come and listen to joshua's response and joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped and said to him. What does my lord say to his servant. Now that lord there is not lord lord god it just means he recognizes that he has lordship over him in some sense but the fact that he fell to the ground and worshiped and was not rebuked for. It tells us that this person who is talking to him is some sort of the often. It is a human representation of god himself and anytime we see a human representation of god himself in scripture. Most scholars refer to that as a pre incarnate. Christ so let's talk about some other times the often like he's gone down so let's let's just say john. You have a spy in your own. That out this total setup. I just i was doing my own research. I thought i go to one of the best bible teachers. I know she has to say about this. Well you know. I talked bad about Eight years ago so we all grow and learn no. It's it's hilarious that you should look at j. T. and say right now. Why have you plowed with my head. Because this information came in through through a little bit of oh i would say some badger negotiating with with somebody very close to the increase said. Hey here's what you should do on q. episode. I sir out out. Oh my gosh. I'd just j. p. sent me that he said kyle we have to play. Well i was really grateful for that biblically insightful. Theologically rich teaching angel where we in the yup yup yup. Thanks for being a good sport about that. Jim yeah why is it so hard to trust. God sometimes we say we trust them with their mouths but often not with our lives. We live like guide. Can't be trusted. Like he doesn't actually want what is best for us like he's just another person who has eve assumed the guard and all those years ago might hold out bestselling author jackie hill perry in her much anticipated. Follow up to gay girl. Good god helps us find the reason. We don't trust god. We misunderstand his holdings holier than thou is available for preorder now with sold and this one. You don't wanna miss pastors and church leaders. Do you wanna keep your church on the same page in the midst of this crazy season. If so then you should check out ministry grid. Their hope is to help. You continue to accomplish. Equipping the saints for the work of ministry. No matter the circumstances ministry grid is the online tool to develop a disciple your church. You can use their eight hundred. Plus prebuilt training courses or create and customize your own. the possibilities are endless. Over the past year they have seen churches adding their own content to complement ministry training and turn their new members. Classes growth track theological training and other in person classes into digital courses using the ministry grid platform. Here's the best news of all. They are offering our podcast listeners. Two hundred dollars off the regular ministry grit cries for just three hundred ninety nine dollars a year. You can get unlimited access for your church. Just go to ministry grid dot com slash knowing faith to learn more about this special off.
#117 The Righteous Shall Live By Faith
"Pastors need more theology. Not less the same is true for those leading small group ministries if the next step for you is additional theological training please registered today to attend southern seminary preview day on october fifteen when considering seminary. There's no more important question than who will be teaching you during preview day at the southern baptist theological seminary. You'll spend your time with our faculty over meals and in their classrooms for just twenty five dollars. Southern will cover two nights of lodging as well as all your meals on preview day attendees are also automatically entered to win. One of several thousand dollar scholarships southern preview day momentous and this year. It's back on campus. Reserve your spot now by going to sb dot. Edu slash preview come see how attending seminary can be life changing for you and your family that s bt s. dot edu slash preview. This call worldly. i'm joined by my co host gene. Jt english what's up collagen. Hey hey let me. Just ask this question for you real quick if you had to guess. What is a strange hobby. That i picked up over the summer. That doesn't fit my brand at all. You're part of the world wrestling federation. No but that would be. Listen if you're out there then man. If you're listening to the bishop bapco you already have a pro wrestler name kathy. Bazzi would work my my my signature move could be the prayer bench. It's called anxious. Bent says get anxious. I picked up a hobby this summer. I have not. I don't think i've disclosed it to you both participating in weekly height amount. That's not what this is it. Yoga yoga you're in the right space though really pilates. I photo evidence. No it's not sit and be fit with karen. Nope aerobics ballet. What no boxing. What boxing time what the heck is tie. It's basically i drink that. You haven't seen koon tie. I picked it up. And i gotta tell you this guy's i'm loving it. Really what do you like about it violent. no. I'm not a violent person. It's just a different kind of workout. Never done anything like it. It kind of involves your mind a little bit like you gotta be thinking you've got to be responding it's different. I don't know it's been so fine like where you get an instagram ad or something like how did you find that. No but i'll tell you i am a sucker for the promoted ads like they got me nailed okay. The instagram ads do. But i'll say this. I joined a gym coming out of cove. It because then i could go back to the gym and it turns out that jim offered classes like boxing and kickboxing tied. Ju jitsu classes. I was like. I don't know if i'd really wanna do that so i tried. And it was a lot of fun. Have you ever boxed surely addressing jt. right now. i was thinking you in particular. I just spar verbally and very strong winning record Jt ever box. I've never liked boxed a person i used to when i was in college. You would just do the punching bags whatever. They're called the speed bag. That was found how to guys each got. Okay at that. But it's been fifteen years. Okay well i i think i just wanna be clear that knowing faith audience i'm not throwing gauntlet. It's not an open challenge. Be great. I mean i feel like at least the patriotic people should get to have that for. Jt and ida box. Oh i don't care who you box. You wanted to buck some gen actually. Let me think some people. I do want you to box. Who do hey can i. I'll keep this story to sixty seconds or less. But i don't have. It tells you guys the the church planting boxing story yet. Now okay. i'll keep this short. I was okay part of a church plant. And there's a there's a radio station in dallas That is heavily emphasized emphasizes sports and every year. I don't know if they do it anymore. That used to have what was called a fight night and they would pair people who would call in on the radio in boxing matches. And i'm part of this church plant and the guy. The pastor is the leap pastor. The preaching pastor is trying to get word out in the they used to host this event at the village apartments. I mean kyle. This is right right. your neighborhood. Thousands of people would show up to watch total amateurs box. Pastor calls in 'cause they're like we need to pass ruin a pasture to box and he's like thinking. This is a good. pr strategy for his church. He calls in. They put him on. And it's supposed to be pastor versus the atheist. Oh so y- atheist in the in in this guy. That i know the pastor show up and have a boxing match in the apartments with all these young dallas yuppie workers like. We're all twenty four years old watching this atheist in this pastor box. And i am not telling you i mean. I'm not lying when i tell you. The pastor was knocked out cold in he just took one on his jaw like he just went down like a sack of potatoes. Cal could you imagine. One of the first things you did is the pastor of mosaic. Getting boxing match in a losing in glorious fashion. Yeah i can tell you that. I made a lot of mistakes. That was not one of them. That was not one of them. That's kind of. That's kind of a reverse mount carmel. Isn't it like he's with god day. Yeah commentator was like oh man he lasted for twelve seconds in another guy said yeah one for each disciple i mean they were just i have. Yeah well that is not in my future for anybody and including the patriot community. Love you patriot folks. But you're not gonna get a boxing match with me. But i might verbally sparred with jin if she'll allow it so i won't today today. We're reading romans. One sixteen through seventeen and jimmy red last time. Jt four system one. sixteen to seventeen. Paul writes for. I am not ashamed of the gospel for it. Is the power of god for salvation to everyone who believes to the jew. First and also to the greek for in the righteousness of god is revealed from faith. Four faith as it is written. The righteous shall live by faith excellent. Thank you so if you missed the first two episodes. We did the first of the season trailer the tease the season. We talked a lot about the historical context around paul's letter to the church in rome. It's written to the church in rome. It's arriving there. Eight hundred fifty five to fifty eight probably dates. It's definitely written by the apostle paul. The is comprised of jews and gentiles. The church was probably started by jewish christians And they were exiled. Roman christians took over the leadership. Jewish christians have now come back in when this letter is arriving and they're now trying to figure out. How do we live together in the life of the church and follow the obedience of faith and paul trying to provide instruction as gene mentioned at the end of last episode. He means it for encouragement intense. He's given us the frame of reference. He's given us a picture of his heart as it pertains to this letter why he wrote it into the church in rome. He hasn't been there but he longs to go and he certainly loves them. So that's that's what's going on Last episode we talked about the back story of the apostle paul about who he is his religious credentials his conversion story and how his greeting begins to tell us a little bit. About what the letters about. Today we're focusing on versus sixteen and seventeen which is basically the thesis statement of the letter. So jenn what's a thesis statement. I love this question. Many of you know that. I do not have formal theological training but what i do have is an english degree and it is to my great sorrow that in the schools today we are not taught how to right the way that we were back in the day so becoming a cranky old person around this but paul paul knew what was that a creek. You'll person about this or just generally. Oh i mean sure. I'm cranky about other things but her the purposes of this episode. Let's just limit it to the proper use of a thesis statement followed up by winning points. Okay so a thesis statement is where you basically show all your cards. You tell everybody this is why we're here. This is the main point. And then you spend the rest of your time and persuasive writing showing people why the main point is the main point and so it is widely agreed upon that romans sixteen one sixteen and seventeen comprised the thesis statement. The big idea. That paul is going to expand on in the rest of the letter and and so he comes right out of the gate for. I'm not ashamed of the gospel. He's already mentioned a gospel but he he mentioned that right at the beginning right verse one of romans one paul servant of christ jesus called to be an apostle set apart for the gospel of god and now he's going to say in verse sixteen. I'm not ashamed of the gospel so clearly part of paul's agenda for this letter. A key part of his thesis statement is the gospel. So let's just start there. What is gospel. While he's he's already addressed part of this Inverse we talked about this in our last episode versus three and four. The this is the the gospel. The gospel of god which was promised beforehand through profits the holy scriptures concerning the son of david concerning the son of god so the gospel is centered around the person and work of jesus. Christ who got is and what god is doing through jesus in order to liberate save in reconcile a people to himself and this is key for paulin romans for his glory. That god is doing this for his. Name's sake that his name would not be besmirched or mocked among the nations. But he's doing it to bring glory to himself yet. That's i think that's really good. Why why does he say. I'm not ashamed of the gospel. Isn't that a weird caveat. Like i mean. Yeah i'd love to hear your thoughts to. I'll just i'll give mine quickly. I'm not sure we've understood the gospel message until we understood that it is also a shame could be ashamed filled shameful message and by that what i mean is is you think of the first century inscriptions Like in roman prisons in walls of them. Making fun of christians of the remember. There's that that slave worshiping his god and it's a it's a donkey on a cross like what we're saying when we confess the gospel. Is that a first century. Jewish man from northern gallery is god himself that he was sent by god. The father to redeem us of our sins to save us from our sins he was he lived a perfect life. Was buried. rose raiders from rose three days later from the tomb in his now living in heaven at the right hand of god. The father in we worship him as lord. If you're in first century rome in your perhaps participating in stoic philosophy or aristoteles philosophy or the socratic method or just your your roman citizen out even interested in philosophy that is a shame full message right like that is the very thing paul kind of walk through this. Also in first corinthians when he's dealing with a jewish and greek world news as well there he says it is. Is this week gospel. That is the power of god to save in here policy He's not using the term week he's using the Shame but he's not ashamed of it because it is the thing that takes shame away. But i think in a in a twenty first century American evangelical context. We can forget the very weakness of this message that is meant to also be powerful. Does that make sense. Yeah no. I think that. I think that's a huge part of what's I think that it's a huge part of what's going on here. I think attached to that the word paul uses for ashamed here is episode which is basically the greek word carries with this connotation of like a physical suffering like suffering might accommodate this say when he says like hey. I'm not ashamed of the gospel sing. Listen i'm not hesitant to bear witness about the gospel even if it's really costly like even if it's really tough in a trial and difficult even if it costs me something. I'm not willing to do that. so i think. There's a shame component. That's there The the mockery. That certainly would have been familiar with exactly what ends up happening to him a few years after he writes this. He ends up in rome I'm actually preaching second timothy chapter four this week and saying i'm being poured out as a drink offering the the shame that he is unashamed of the fear of suffering the or the lack of fear of suffering is something that actually is about to happen to him in a few years from writing. These words i think to you about. I couldn't find the quote but as the quote from the earliest years of the of the new church where they're regarded as a religion of women. Slaves you know. Christianity is the is the religion of women slaves in other words. It's it's the religion of the week and the and the last in the lease and in like. Oh isn't that wonderful way but like that's ridiculous. The gods of rome. The gods of greece are the gods of people with the upper hand and so To align yourself with christianity was to place yourself outside of the confines that society wanted you to be in but it was also to be derided because what the good news is saying is that all are equal at the foot of the cross and this is not a popular idea in greco roman culture. Yeah because and that's a that's a great place to go onto the next thing. Which is he says. It is the power of god for it is the power of god. four vatian to everyone everyone So there you go. You've got an equalized right there. So let's go back up and just talk about the power of god so pause not ashamed of the gospel even though it could be very costly for them even even though he could be marked by shame instead of honor and he certainly could be hurt instead of help because of his bearing witness about the gospel but here he says no. The gospel is something. I'm not ashamed of because it's the power of god for salvation. What could what could he possibly mean. In saying. That the power of god for salvation. Yeah so i mean. The gospel itself is something that happened two thousand years ago but that same power is alive and effective today specifically through its proclamation that we believe that when the gospel is proclaimed that god is just as powerful today to act in. Save us so one of the ways that one of the commentators are red who who was trying to tease this idea out. Basically said it isn't just at. The gospel was effective then but that the gospel is effective. Now the preaching of the word does not merely make salvation possible and. We should probably talk about that for a second. The preaching of the of the word does not merely make salvation possible but it actually affects salvation to those who are called in. So let's let's let's talk about that jt because that is gonna be a distinction and we're going to need for the rest of the book. Yeah so when we talk about what jesus accomplished for us two thousand years ago and think about that symptoms. I just used accomplished is important. Jesus does not make our salvation possible. He makes our salvation. Actual we are not the ones who are Make our salvation effective when we believe now. Belief is absolutely required. How how how will they know unless they believe we have. We have to here and we have to respond through faith. Which is the gift of god. Through grace that we receive. But it's really important for us to also know that I'm not sure if you want to get into like atonement theory here. We might want to save that for a bill. But i do think that what we can talk about is the factual call of salvation. Yeah so god. God the father god the son and god the holy spirit are all active in the work of salvation. God the father sends the sun god. The son accomplishes salvation for us on. The cross doesn't make it possible in god the holy spirit defects and applies that that gospel into our lives that we weren't sitting back kind of self actualising waiting to see if we had a good idea about the gospel god save us we are dead in our trespasses and sins and got effectual of effect is is an important word there effects us like something happens to us not uh-huh to something else and we are saved and that effectual call accompanies the actual proclamation hearing of the gospel. Yeah in god's wisdom sovereignty in providence. He has declared and ordained. This is his method of salvation. God the father sending out the sun. God the senate accomplishing salvation. God the holy spirit effecting and applying that work through the proclamation of the gospel through the gift of grace through faith when we believe. Yeah if you think about The words of the him he breaks the power of canceled san. He sets the prisoner free. The of salvation is an act of power. And i don't think we always reflect on that that it's not simply That god exercises his power on our behalf but that he breaks the power that we were living under And that that's what the good news is doing for us is it's you know it's it's it's not simply being transferred we sometimes we'll say from the kingdom of darkness keenum flight. We are forcibly placed from one kingdom into another as an act of god's power and that is exactly what the word salvation here is carrying with it. So this word here what he says. It's the power of god for salvation. This word here. His paul's used the word. Salvation is always of spiritual deliverance. It's always so and deliverance. Is that what you're talking about. it's that removal. It's not just like a door is opened. Its doors open. Hey if you want life you go that way though. It's this deliverance deliverance. From what well. It's salvation from the just judgment of god's deliverance from god's just judgment against said ship with god it's deliverance from the terror of shame which paul smith talk about and it's deliverance to freedom in god's world it's deliverance from the evil powers of the world and has deliverance to participation god's kingdom salvation as paul talks about it here is spiritual deliverance for everyone who believes here. When i hear these words. I think about moses and the old testament type of our salvation right. Moses is not ashamed to stand before pharaoh and then god delivered. He says i delivered you from egypt with mighty acts. You know it's his. It's a powerful display of god's ability to take them from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light and i think that we're seeing that That type come to its fulfillment in the work of christ and so paul is. Is channeling those ideas here. He's saying this is The power of the gospel is the fullest expression of what we saw In those stories that are familiar to israel's history where god exercises a miraculous power to deliver his people from bondage absolutely absolutely salvation to everyone who believes and even though the salvation is exclusive to the power of god In jesus christ and by the power of the holy spirit so it is a very exclusive you can only be saved by this god whom has brought the gospel. This god huish triune father son holy spirit y'all way it's exclusive but it's radically inclusive in a way that is unlike anything else anybody in the turkey. Rome knows because it's for everyone who believes so. There's no privileged position there so i think that's really important that this is hey. The the gospel is the power of god for salvation to everyone. who believes. that's why it's the answer for the desire that we feel to be delivered because it's available to everyone. It's available danny. What it's not just for this kind of roman citizens of this kind of jewish believer. It doesn't matter where you come from. The gospel is available to you. Paul goes on and it kinda goes on when he says when he says to the jew first and also to the greek well hold on that kind of feels like a wreck record. Scratch doesn't like he just said. The gospel is the power of god for salvation to everyone who believes to the jew first and also to the greek so that kind of feels like well hold on. Why are we doing like this. Ju i greek thing like yeah hierarchy. What is that now. Cly right somebody get priority. Is their division as paul encouraging that division. So why would paul say this because it kind of just feels like hold on. Are you gonna pulling back what you just put out there. We kind of pulling your punches. Why would he say this. I've heard two primary reasons for it and i. I don't think that they're competing. I think that these could both be reasonable. And maybe there's even more reasons for it. The first is this was one of paul's primary missio logical strategies. When he would go into the city he would go to the synagogue. I the jew first and then also to the greek and so. I think that's a really reasonable explanation. That and also what we thought. We talked about this last episode. That's likely what was going on. Rome that the jews had come to faith in christ first and then it made its way to the greeks and so this was a either a missile Strategy and or just what was happening. The gospel go into the jew first and also to the greeks but in addition to that you could also argue that. This is a story of redemptive history. The the gospel went first. To abraham isaac and jacob. This good news. Glaciers chapter three that was proclaimed to abraham beforehand. He believed it was credited him as righteousness that is now supposed to go to as which was promised to abraham to all nations specifically greeks. So i think i think both the reasonable one might be more than the other but i think both are at play here. Yeah i would agree with you. And i think it's important. I think he's setting them up. Obviously because he's gonna get into. He's going to ask the question. Is it better to be a jewish. He's basically gonna say is a better to jewish than than a greek christian and he's got a he's got address that because they're going to try to pull in You know what I don't wanna. I'll save it. Okay i to sit on it. This is me was self control. Everyone so i want to Before before we take a break. I want to answer this question because we often use this word. We just kinda like throw it out there and we. We don't talk about it a lot. And i think sometimes it can just go blind to it. So if the gospels the power of god for salvation to everyone who believes what is belief like maybe. Somebody's listening to this podcast going. Do i believe more there at or they've been exploring the gospel as or somebody sent this to them or they just heard it and they're going. Okay so tell me. How do i believe what is belief. What does that actually mean is there. Jt found ways to talk about this with people when they're when they're asking you. What does it mean to believe here to believe. The gospel feel like have been helpful. But it's really important here that we maybe think about belief or faith in a think of like a multifaceted diamond and every facet of the diamond helps characterize that diamond by beauty and so faith and belief is a beautiful thing that isn't simply one fasted. Of course one of the most important facets of belief is intellectual. Assent that doesn't mean academic sent. That doesn't mean believing in a doctrinal statement. It means being able to say and confess. Jesus christ is lord. I am a center and he has come to die and save me that we would confess with our mouths and believe with our hearts that jesus christ is god and king and so there's intellectual assent but as we've talked about on this podcast before faith i think in belief can include this this whole vision of not just mental assent which includes giving your whole self away to jesus as king. We've talked about the term allegiance before that. Jesus demands that we that we give him allegiance because of his kingship now also emphasized what we said what i just said i at intellectual sent. That does not mean that you need to have a certain intellectual capability in order to believe. We're not saved by getting doctrinal statements right nor we saved by rational capacity. Were saved by grace through faith in so for those those brothers and sisters that don't say mental capacities that others have or perhaps die in infancy. They're not outside the reach of god's salvation. It's really important here that we make sure we're not talking about faith is not what makes salvation actual what jesus did on the cross in in his. Resurrection is what makes salvation actual does that make sense. Yeah yeah i think faith is a green like ascent. Sometimes we'll talk about belief or faith is agreement right. That's the port part of it like it's our convictions. It's our belief. Faith is affections Worship it's it's our heart and faith is our allegiance The thing about head heart hands or belief worship obedience that when we're thinking about what it means to believe the gospel or to place faith in god. The god of the gospel. It means that we're giving our whole self and that includes agreement. It includes our affections and it includes our allegiance. That certainly when paul talks about the life of faith the rest of romans. It's going to involve all those things. Because the church in rome they know some of these things already and paul's trying to move them towards allegiance to them to obedience to them So and sometimes you hear this talked about. His gospel. Indicative gospel imperatives. Like paul. kind of tells you who you are. And then then he tells you what to do. He does a little bit romans. It's not as clear as it is in like a fijian's or colossians but where the first eleven chapters of romans there's kind of unfolding of the gospel. There's a doxa logical conclusion and then in romans twelve gets into like a strong ethical perspective on on the christian life. So i do think you see all of those dimensions with faith and belief but i think you're note. Jt about the effect show cough selfish. And what makes faith act. Or what makes salvation actually actualized is the work of god. A three is the old theologian called faith. Faith faith the instrument of our salvation. He said it draws everything from the work of christ and contributes nothing to it The industry mentality of faith is that it is receptive. It's open hands but it's not seizing of the gift. It's the posture. It's it's got opening our hands to receive what god is going to give us. That's right that's really quick his ability to give it. I would add to that. I mean you know the author of hebrews. We don't know who he is. I don't think we're defy i. Yeah who they are Now faith is confidence and what we hope for insurance about what we do not see. That's the way the an ivy says it. And so i think that's a good distinguishing marker for the difference between the belief of the christian and the belief of the demon sprite the confidence and assurance So it's a it's an it's a an an orienting of ourselves that is wholly different than the orienting of the one who believes conceptually or believes Strictly from a knowledge base but not from a gut level. That's good match. Taylor has a new bible study. Just released called john one through three. It's a thirteen week. Study on just the first three chapters in the gospel of john. The study includes teaching videos for matt that ranged from twenty to thirty five minutes. Each those of you who've done a matt chandler study know how thorough engaging he is so if you wanna learn more about jesus from a great teacher go visit lifeway dot com slash john bible study wife way dot com slash. John bible study is a new women's bible. Study coming february twenty. Twenty two from lifeway stopped by courtney. Doctor it's called. In view of god's mercies the gift of the gospel in romans in her nine session bible study. You'll walk through the book of romans to discover that salvation doesn't just change your eternal future. It changes your present reality. Because of god's salvation hope peace life faith trust and endurance or yours. Invites you to join him on his twofold mission to sanctify and transform you into the image of jesus and to send you out into the world and to share the good news salvation. In jesus christ you can find out more about this study at lifeway dot com so and the next verse. It says that the gospel has revealed the righteous this of god. Now this phrase is a big one we could do we. Could we could do two seasons of a that just covers the literature around this phrase. That's how expensive it is so i want. I want to be clear. There are times on this show where we're definitely having to. We're having to summarize. This is one of those. There's gonna be a lot of those in romans. I just wanna be clear. This is one of those times where we're gonna get to talk about this a little bit. We'll certainly we'll talk about it in other episodes because righteousness is a core. That's in the thesis statement for a reason. It's a core concept. That paul's gonna unfold through the letter. But i just wanna tell you if you think. This is all that we're about to say about the righteousness of god. You're wrong so don't tweet at us and be like. Have you read these fifteen articles about this other. Take yes we are reading them. We are researching them all of us preaching and teaching through rome. And so we're working on it but we're gonna talk a little bit about it right now. It says in verse seventeen four in it the gospel the righteousness of god is revealed from faith. Four faith as it has written the righteous shall live by faith. So we just talk about what does the phrase righteousness of god mean. Does anybody wanna start. I know we all went away. But i've got stuff but i don't always want to just answer the question key. You could go first. You're always so nice to let someone else go. I go ahead. You go first trump in Good luck i let me let me let me cite. Let me cite who. I am indebted to on on my perspective on this phrase because it's important. I'm extremely indebted to doug mu who is paul scholar roman scholar and a galatian scholar in particular. And i just want to be really clear. Whatever you're about to hear me. Say i am standing on the shoulders. I've read a lot of the literature on this phrase and he's the one that i feel like he lands in a really great place on this phrase basically there have been three perspectives on what the central meaning of this phrase is and. I'll outline them for you here. The first perspective that this phrase really is talking about the righteous standing that god gives you might think about this perspective as thinking of the righteousness of god as god's gracious source of salvation for in it the righteousness of god is revealed his gracious source of salvation the gospels revealing the righteousness of god. It's revealing god's gracious source of salvation is righteousness. If you're looking for a place to tie these concepts you're going to find plenty of them in roman's but let me give you one that gets mentioned all the time. Second corinthians five twenty one for our sake. God made him who knew no sin to become send so that in him we might become the righteousness of god there. You're getting paul telling you you can almost speak of salvation as you'd you weren't righteous. God took your jesus and righteousness he gave you his righteousness. So that's one perspective on this phrase righteousness from god is the righteous standing. That god gives jesus in the atonement. It's his source of salvation. The second perspective on this and all of these are we've talked about sometimes within the cat all of these are within the camp. Just wanna be real clear. I'm outlining them. I'm not gonna spoil it for you at the enemy like now. This one is heretical. Not the second perspective is that this righteousness of god is the perfect character of god that we are to imitate. It's making a character statement. You might think about this as righteousness as the standard of god. Righteousness his perfect character. The gospel has demonstrated his perfect character. If you're looking for other places of scriptural support you can think about places that talk about the vindication of jesus righteousness of god's righteousness that when christ rose from the dead. He vindicated the righteousness of god in that. He held true to god's promises he was faithful. He claimed to be god. He claimed that he was going to feed death and overthrow it and he did. That wasn't lying so this is the righteous got. It's perfect character of god that we are to imitate it's his righteousness has got standard. The third perspective on this phrase is righteousness of god should be understood as meaning god's faithfulness to his covenant promises god's faithful to his company promises. God has been faithful in the gospel to all of his promises to israel. You might think about this. As if righteousness of god has been source of salvation or. It's a standard this is more about righteousness as his covenant keeping character righteousness cut. He did not lie the promises he made to israel he fulfilled and he fulfilled them in the gospel. This relies heavily on old testament conceptions of righteousness that invoke righteousness is as a as a designator primarily to talk about covenant fidelity or covenant keeping. So those are the three dominant perspectives and there are people that will argue and that are arguing. Who spilled a lot of me to say that. Only one of these can be true and doug mu says. There's no reason that we have to think that. Whole paul is a synthesizer. He's talking to an audience for which he needs to synthesize these concepts. It can't be. It cannot be categorically one or the other. he's not speaking just a jews who would've understood a lot of the faithfulness to covenant promises. He's not speaking merely to gentiles. Who would have had maybe more of a legal and forensic understanding of the concept of righteousness speaking to this audience and because of that. We should understand that. All three perspectives can be held together as adequate expressions of what it means when paul uses the phrase righteousness of god. I'm a big fan of dug in this I want all three. Do you think that when it occurs in varying contexts throughout the book of romans that it might carry greater emphasis of one aspect of these or another given the context that we read it in. Yes yeah sure. Yup also same page areas but like just to boil it down like to sort of maybe a shorter way of saying what you just talked about and you talked about. Really well cost. I'm not digging on you. So the first the first explanation would be one related to justification that we're talking about imputed righteousness from christ the second. One could fairly be related to sanctification right. That not only are we imputed with christ's righteousness but the righteousness of god is also our example. As we walk the christian path right and then the third one would just be related to the general faithfulness of god to all generations. Would that be shorthand for how we can understand the three different views yet. I think if you really wanted to. If you wanted to keep it within dr salvation you could say the third one is an assurance of our future. Glorification i wanted to. I was afraid that was too neat. And clean no in the and that god who has kept his promises covenant promises so far will keep the promises he's made he's paying. Yep exactly right and isn't this a little bit of paul says in With the groaning like like basically like when he talks about suffering and some of the tr- the trials and afflictions of the life of a believer walking and god's holy way who has been justified by god's righteousness. He appeals like god is going to do this like the earth is growing for the redemption of the sons of glory. This is going to happen. He's done it already. You know what i'm saying. Have insurance of doing that. So i think you could tie it there. It's not as neat as the first two. But i think it's there. Yeah what about this. I'm trying to come up with my own formulation of this. By the way that was a summary. Also great summary. I one so again we're trying to define the righteousness of god i won. God declares us right second one. God is what is right. Yep third god does what is right. I think you could do that. I think with the second one you would just wanna make sure that the the literature around that is emphasizing that. It's it is who he is but it's who he expects us to be. It's a subjective. So like the way to get technical subjective genitive he is the one who is the righteousness that we should be modeled but yes so god declares us right got is what is right and we should be to number three. God does what is right. Yeah question i'm now thinking internet -tarian an economic trinity categories. Do we see here. The idea that he initiates he accomplishes and he applies. Could you say those are the three things we're looking at. So god lays out the you know the the righteousness from god is plan from start to finish. It is accomplished Through christ and applied to spirit would reverse the perspectives. That we've just listed right but you start with third you'd start with the third one but yeah Interesting i think. And here's the deal. We know this is something that i think. It's overlooked in discussing how to interpret. Paul when paul wants like policy master of clarity paul will sometimes make up words by slamming two greek words together. Because there's not even a word for what paul was to say like like paul does stuff like that because he wants to be granular and he will do something. That's unconventional to make it happen. So the kind of crackle back yes. I'm not gonna go to follow that trail too far. But i so i think i think when paul leaves like this. Is the single verse open. He's not trying to leave us guessing now. I think he does this because he is trying to capture and communicate a multisided definition of the righteousness of god. Yeah he's he's not a dummy. He is a master of clarity and when he leaves this open. Space for us. I think he's inviting us realize listen it's multidimensional and it's going to have a lot of expressions and you're right. Jin there are parts of romans. Were it certainly seems like the emphasis is on one of these three perspectives. But at no point. I think does paul deny that. Any of these perspectives are crucial. And i think more than that i think. He affirms all throughout the letter and the way he discusses righteousness and justification which we will get to. He gives plenty of room to see. This is exactly what he means. Well at all of these things at the same time. Yeah and i think to one of my big concerns with studying a book like romans is that it can feel Nas stick to the listener. It can feel like you have to have me do. I was just about to say what it means that you have to have special knowledge that you can't be someone who has a degree in english. Only you know that you have to have. And so when. I read that phrase i'm allowed to encounter it like i think that in the earlier stages of my understanding of the scriptures i would have encountered it as imputed righteousness like. That's how i would have read it and that you can do plenty of good work in this book. With just that vantage point on what he's saying but then coming back to it again or growing in your understanding of the righteous god means that as you return to these tax as you meditate on them that you're going to grow. They become more expansive in the way that you might apply them. And so i think i want to assure our listeners. We're gonna get into some passages in romans that are going to feel really hard just to read much less to understand and apply and And you don't need special there is. There is a plane. Meaning that you can draw from the book of romans which is plenty for you to chew on but if you return to it again and again i think you will find that it it. Deepens and expands and so I just don't want listeners. To think like honestly as we're having these conversations as it's been in other conversations that we've had the three of us are discovering things in these conversations as we're having them with one another that are going to help us with our understanding the book and you're allowed to start somewhere and then move from that place it's good so paul has given us a thesis statement. He's given us gospel. He's given us power of god's salvation belief he's talked about the righteousness of god and then. He concludes here for in it. In the gospel the righteousness of god is revealed from faith. Four phase as it is written the righteous shall live by faith and now faith is one of the last big words in this thesis statement that is going to be crucial for understanding. Much of what. Paul says in the letter it's regime. He's gonna have a lot to say about faith so he quotes from the prophet quebec right. The righteous shall live by faith. So we've talked a little bit about belief and faith but what would it mean. What does paul trying to get us to see here if the guy if if this righteousness of god that's revealed is from faith to some translations faith from first to last Some say by faith from first to last some say from faith to faith from faith. Four faith What's paul trying to. Communicate is the impact so to speak of this revelation of the righteousness of god through the gospel. I i just want to point out to our listeners. That would kyle has just done is give you a really good basic bible literacy building tool. That is a gift to those of us who live in this day and age. And that is you can go to bible hub and pull up this verse in different translations and you can compare the way it's been translated and as we were putting together the study that we're going to do it. My church over romans We use the espn dumping off point. It's the translation that churches used for a long time But particularly in the book of romans looking at other translations has been a huge help and trying to formulate what is being gotten at And so i would just say if you're a listener and you're following along in your copy of the text as i would encourage also to do Keep keep those other translations handy if you are like. I don't know what's going on here. And read three. Or four different ones read new english translation. This esp the An iv esp. If you compare just those major translations alone usually to get some clarity on this so kudos to kyle bertha bible literacy thing there and then in light of that This faith faith stuff. What i would say is what i see. Emerging is just hey. This is all faith from beginning to end that. This is a matter of of faith fair. I think that that's that's the main impact here. Is that the reception of this. The impact of how we respond to it is believe it is faith. It's that agreement. It's that affection that allegiant. I wou i like that what you brought it with. Hebrews now assurance to that yeah but But yes i. I think that that's what it is. He's telling us now. What do we do in response to it. We place our faith in this god who has revealed it and accomplished it. I think but you think. Jt anything. i think that's really good. You said jen. The entirety of the christian life is by grace through faith in christ. But but i also would want to. Just kyle mentioned that faith also includes faithfulness like committing ourselves to the god has been faithful to us. I it's it's it's a state of being but it's also doing yes. Okay i know. We're talking about romans but i just have to ask as we end things who do you think wrote hebrews. What's your what's your current Theory i don't know. I have a hot take on the. I think it's the you nothing looking something up. I read so ever circle recently. I'm just making sure. I get it right for say it because i mean even one. And i'm thinking repressed. I've gotta make sure somebody said. Did i think. I think i think it was luke. Luke luke don't they. That's who i think. It is now after we spent time in In acts in particular. I was like man. This sounds a lot like hebrews. So i don't know i mean i don't i don't have like a. I'm not bought into the conversation. But anytime i would hear someone say oh. It's not paul at somebody else. I'd be like come on. It's just paul. We just can't say because he didn't sign the letter. But then i'm like no maybe not so it's fascinating to me this conversations exist and that i actually -pinion on one so there's been a few books recently. I'm the lucan. Authorship of hebrews really was Okay i'm sorry totally off topic. I'm probably wrong. Uh the holy spirit. Thank you jay team and our next episode. We're going to examine the story of broken in the rest of romans one and It will be i. I really believe that's episode will be one of the more important episodes of nine faith. We've done so. I hope you'll listen to. We want to thank our sponsor. The southern baptist theological seminary if the next step in your service to christ church is additional theological training. Please register today to attend. Southern seminary's preview day on october fifteenth for just twenty five dollars southern will cover two nights of lodging as well as all your meals on day. Reserve your spot now by going to s vets dot edu slash preview. That would really encourage you to do that. Don't miss our new podcast. The family discipleship podcast. It's out wherever you get your podcast. You can find knowing. Faith and family discipleship podcasts on instagram facebook and twitter or you can check us out on patriot dot com slash knowing faith. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Grace and peace
#118 Idolatry, Identity, Immorality
"The biblical worldview you've instilled in your students survived the challenges college life presents. That's a question. Every parent and every pastor should consider boys colleges design with the end in mind establishing a biblical worldview that guide students for the rest of their lives each class in every discipline all of the events on the student. Life calendar are intended to honor christ and inspire students towards godliness. Voice college the undergraduate school the southern baptist theological seminary offers christ-centered degrees that work in the real world whether students called the full time ministry or wants to glorify christ her marketplace career. Boys college will prepare them. Academically and spiritually students and families who are considering college should attend college preview weekend find the right degree figure out financial aid. Get a feel for life on campus. Reserve your spot now by going to boys college dot com slash preview boys college. Cover your meals and up to two nights of hotel lodging for just twenty five dollars per person. Registration is underway now at boyce college dot com slash pre. This is cal wurley. And i'm joined by my co host jin wilkin and jt. English good morning. Good morning good morning. what's up. Gosh you know. I just want the listeners. To know that if it ever sounds like i'm coming in with a lot of energy and they're coming in with lower energy you're thinking oh that can't be what it looks like what they're looking at each other. The answer is it looks exactly how it. It's i just want to be very clear about that. If you could see it. You'd be like yeah that how it looks exactly how it sounds so i always think. Jt's reading his email but we're doing though the warm up. I know think it's an hour. You guys it's an hour earlier for me. I'm still on my first cup of coffee. Been up since four. am just cranking out work. Yeah nope not even close now. I gotta good honestly plus time but then. Jt you have a good reason for being. Maybe a little bit not down in the dumps but more melancholy this morning because you've made a transition jt. I feel like i married off. My daughter's preschool. She's four and she's going to preschool and it feels like i'm already saying goodbye to her. I i don't know how to do this. Yep yep colorado. Schools are a little weird. They're like our our school schedule is different. Thomas doesn't start until after labor day. Really yeah so key. He has two more weeks of hanging out at home. So on friday bay. We'll be at school and he and arrogant have a day. We're going to go do some trampoline jumping and golfing and just hanging out his guys. Meanwhile my little girl. My little precious baby daughter is going to be trouncing out here. Life man places to be. That's exactly right. Yes just going to be like when she comes home and tells you today. She's like sorry. Dad had love to hang out. But i've got some homework today. i can't well. She did say something like that. Kind of Last night before. I was like hey we give you know. Data kiss before school tomorrow. We'd do kisses on those and She was like well. I have to go to school daddy. So i don't know that i can and i was like kiss for the playground. I'm my heart just dropped to my stomach thinking about. That was claire. Claire was like kissing. Bandit and i'm like hair. Read the room. cut it out. How's lydia doing. I mean she's got to be kicking stuff up yeah Wait are you talking about kissing on the playground talking about. What is she like seventeen eighteen. Now oh no way man. She came in this morning while doing my bible study and she said so as part of my prayers in the morning i pray for her for her walk with the lord balfour pray for her future husband and her friends her future friends. I have set of prayers that pray for her future friends. And then i pray for her future husband and She came in and she sat with me. I was talking with her and she said she said well. What are you doing. So i'm praying and she said well what for and it was actually praying for you. I was praying for your relationship with the lord and that you'd have really good friends as you grow because friends are so great and for your future husband and she goes dad. I'm only four. And i was like it was like yes you are. Yes you never. Yeah anyway. so that's where we're at this morning but we are jumping into a passage. That is not the same kind of heartache. But it's a heartbreak passage When we think about the book of romans romans one eighteen through thirty. Two is what we're looking at today. And so if you've been following along with us in this roman series we've just kicked it off with season seven. We've covered the first half of romans. Chapter one and last week was really crucial. And i wouldn't say you need to go back and listen to all of the episodes we've recorded so far but last week romans one sixteen through seventeen is basically the thesis statement of the letter. And so if you missed last week would really encourage you to go back and listen to that episode because in two short verses paul is able to kind of encapsulate the mega themes. He's going to explore the rest of this letter to the church in rome. And so today. We're gonna look at romans. One eighteen thirty two. I think i'm the only one that hasn't read yet. And this is a long passage. So i will take it upon myself and i will read romans. Wine eighteen through thirty two four g. Rehearse it before this. I have practiced it. Yeah it is. It's i mean. Honestly i would if i were you. Yeah so we're gonna jump into it Listener if you'll just pause for a moment to pray for me wherever you're at silently your car Let me read this passage flores and we'll jump into talking through it. It's a big one romans. One eighteen through thirty two for the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against all in godliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppressed the truth. For what can be known about. God is plain to them because god has shown it to them for his invisible attributes namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made so they are without excuse for although they knew god they did not honor him as god or give thanks to him. But they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened claiming to be wise. They became fools and exchange the glory of the immortal god for images resembling moral man and birds and animals and creeping things therefore god gave them up in the loss of their hearts to impurity to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves because they changed the truth about god for a lie and worshiped and serve the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen for this reason. God gave them up dishonorable passions for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and we're consumed with passion for one another men committing shameless acts with men and receiving themselves to do penalty for their error and since they did not see fit to acknowledge. God god gave them up to debase. Mind to do with ought not to be done. There were filled with all manner of unrighteousness. Evil covetousness malice. They are full of envy. Murder strife deceit. Maliciousness are gossips. Slanders haters of god insulin haughty boastful inventors of evil disobedient appearance foolish faithless heartless ruthless though they know god's righteous decree those who practice such things deserve to die they not only do them but give approval to those who practice that is the word of word and sometimes i tell her church sometimes when you read a passage and you say this is the word of the lord and the congregation responds. Thanks be to guide. And it's like there's a lot of gratitude in that response. There are other times when you read a passage a hard passage. And you say this is the word of the lord and it's a little bit more difficult to say thank speed god and this is one of those passes where you read it and you believe i believe. This is god's word. I believe it's holy. I believe it's inspired. I believe it's infallible. And yet this one feels it. You can almost feel it. Just grading against the consciousness of our age and the ruts of the human heart scratching against it. It's not a message that we want to hear about ourselves or hear about the world and yet it's a passage that we really need to explore and think through today so let's just begin at the very top. In this passage we find a story of broken. This is our story. Is that the story of the beginning is the world's story what story is being told in. This passage does belong to us to the world. Just adam and eve just to preen Predeliction earth pre-flood earth. I mean who is this passage speaking about. It's all of us me. Yep i mean this is. This is the classic. The you hear the phrase all the time. There's no good news the bad news. This is the quintessential passage in scripture. I would argue. that says. and here's the bad news. And i think the way our c sproul says it is we're not centers because we send we send because we're centers it's basically pointing to the doctrine of original thin and natural revelation which are two really big concepts that you need in your toolkit as you're reading the bible in general so it's important and it's also painful and yeah it's it's for all of us know jen. You just mentioned natural revelation and that was one of my questions here that we have to explore issues. This question of natural theology verse nineteen for what can be known about. God is playing them because god has showed it to him shown it to them. Excuse me for his invisible attributes namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made so they are without excuse. Jt what is when jin says natural revelation or natural theology. What are we talking about here. And where do we see that in verse. Nineteen and twenty. Yes so. I think national revelation kinda gets a bad rap sometimes in At least one of the circles. I've been in revelation revelation and what we mean by that is god is making himself known in different ways and so to think about natural revelation. We also need to talk about special revelation which are the two primary ways that god makes himself known special. Revelation is something that gets talked about all the time and rightfully so in our kind of theological world. Special revelation comes primarily through. Christ colossians chapter. One he is the image of the invisible. God if you wanna know who got his look at jesus or he was chapter one. God informative spoke through prophets and apostles. But now he has spoken to us through his son so god is known in. Christ i mean. I've met jesus spiritual sense but i've not seen jesus of nazareth walking the earth so we need scripture scriptures. God's other means of making himself known think of second timothy three sixteen all scripture is breathed out or inspired by god. So god's got his this. This speaking god which is really important for us to know one of the most fundamental claims of christian theology. That god is making himself known any makes himself known specifically or specially in christ and in scripture that is redemptive revelation of god. But what paul is getting at here. Is this much more common natural revelation which is known to all people. Whether you've ever read a passage of the bible or you have come to jesus through the dwelling of the spirit. Everybody has looked up into the heavens. Everybody has seen a sunset. Everybody has seen sun rise or a mountain peak and thought to themselves. Oh my goodness. I am part of god's creation whether they've said it that way or not or experience that way and what policies talking about here is the psalmist says that the heavens declare the glory of god than from day to day. His speech is coming forth in so think about genesis. Chapter one god speaks in his creation comes to into existence in that creation primarily exists to make him known as the creator so call. You talked about this. A lot of reading kelvin's institutes with you a little bit two years ago about how. How one of the primary ways that god makes himself known before he makes himself known as redeemer is that god makes himself known as creator in what. I'm really trying to get at here. Is i think a lot of people when they think about natura revelation think that god has somehow messed up therefore god had to make himself known specially. That's not it but in and that's not in the passage here. Paul says that god has been clearly perceived that we are without excuse that although they knew god they didn't honor god in so natural. Relation has no deficiencies. The deficiency is not in god's ability to make himself known in creation. It's actually in the creation us our ability to know god because this is what we're getting at our sinfulness yet that's really well said and that the deficiency in us is not merely a i think it was andrew fuller who distinguished between the natural and capacity and the moral incapacity our inability to understand that creation testifies to god as creator and us as creature is not merely a natural incapacity meeting. It's not just a limitation of our knowledge or ability to know it's a moral incapacity in that even as we see it testify to the grandeur of god we're actively rejecting in suppressing it depressing yep so verse eighteen the wrath of god real from heaven against all in godliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. So the picture here is not like we don't It's it's less like we don't have ears to be able to hear this sound this. The voi- the the the revelation of god and christian. It's almost like the volume is turning up constantly as we live in the world and we're constantly are senator is constantly trying to turn it back down. We're constantly trying to take what is clear and say. Oh but it's not really that way. Who may is. I think a lot of times when we think about understanding god's revelation we feel like okay it's primarily a matter of how says affected our ability to understand cognitively. I mean that's certainly true. But the fundamental reality is not that there some sort of mental deficiency in our ability to understand who got is or that. It's unclear supposing that it would it's god's fault But no it's immoral incapacity where we are constantly rejecting that which is obvious to redeemed is well and i think it's significant. You touched on this earlier but it's significant to note for many of us. I think many of us believe that. Our guilt is established before god at the point that we reject a gospel presentation given by someone who walks up and presents the gospel to us or we read the scriptures. And we're like that's not for me but what's being said. Here is something far more fundamental. It's at our guilt is established before god not because we reject as messiah but because we reject him as creator. And that's that's a big deal because in rejecting him as creator were not saying. I don't need you to save me. We're saying i deny that you made me. I my own source. I am i am i'm self sufficient i'm self existent. And so we begin to ascribe to ourselves things that are only true of the invisible. God but i am curious and i think something that would help our listeners. To clarify does natural revelation gives sufficient knowledge of god for salvation in other words. Can i stand at the edge of the grand canyon and look out at the grand canyon and become a christian. No not under the present reign of darkness and sin and the impact of senator lives. I would say that it would be true. That in the garden the garden situation that natural revelation would be sufficient because of the taint of sin had not so misdirected man's relationship with god. They understood himself fundamentally as creature not creator That was his self conception But i would say that. Certainly under the present impact of knowledge of god as creator or the Marveling at the natural beauty of god's created world is not enough. It's not sufficient enough For salvation it is sufficient enough for condemnation Because it does tell us that there is a god and we are not him but it does not give us enough information to tell us who. This guy is like natural revelation. Revelation tells us This is not my distinction. This is somebody else that i'm forgetting it. So just wanna be clear. I'm not making this up. I'm ripping off of somebody. I don't know who it is not trying to plagiarize either natural. The natural revelation tells us that god is special revelation tells us who got. Yeah okay okay. So i think that's a good distinction but i wanna ask a question here. This is something. I've been wrestling with. I agree with everything you've said so far however once we know christ so the christian who's enjoyed by the spirit understands not just got his creator but as redeemer knows that got is and those who got is you do begin to see who got his in creation more than you could have seen prior to redemption. Oh absolutely true. Absolutely you begin. I think what the reason. I think that's important is because it is there. We just suppress it. Yes i think that's fair to say yes. And we we mis attributed i mean which is what he's getting it into. He says that you know they. They worshiped the creation instead of the creator. So the person who doesn't have the dwelling spirit through the work of christ looks at the grand canyon and worships the grand canyon instead of giving glory to the one who made it and yet the pattern onus if you would be willing to take it one step further. I think you're saying the same thing jen. But like you see the grand canyon and if you're if you don't have the lord you worship the creation the creator let's just say then five years later you come to know the lord and you understand god nakata's creator but as redeemer and you go to the grand canyon again in what i'm saying is i think there's a way for us not just to understand. Wow gather is a creator but also look at the grand canyon and say there is a redeemer yes yoga. There were accepting them expand on that. I just think what i'm saying. Is i think. The story of the gospel. Not just so. I think i think what what generation are natural revelation is trying to do. Isn't just teach us that god is creator but also the gods redeemer so a silly example might be a flower. I mean if something that is dead that goes into the ground and yet is planted a seed in his birth again and that is a picture of resurrection. Okay now now. I'm with you that makes sense to me now. And that's jesus jesus us he incorporates. Natural revelation ended the parables rather concepts. First corinthians chapter fifteen. So i think what i'm trying to say. Now revelation is for the non-christian sufficient enough to condemn before the christian also sufficient enough to remind us that the gospel. Yeah yes absolutely. But here's another question. What would you say to the christian. He says i mean. I do like our read my bible but my true place. Where worshiping commune with the lord is in nature. I listen. I love that. People love being outside there and there is a lot to marvel at. You know. I think that the psalmist. You're just one of them. Know that what i'm gonna say it's true but don't have to say when i'm gonna say is that i think that the admonitions in structure for meditating. On god's word are yeah memorable. And i think that it's not a division that scripture makes. I don't think it's a division we need to may and if somebody said hey. I love spending time outdoors. I would really rather do that than spend time in scripture. I would say do both. But that's gonna but but but i'll tell you this if you come to me and say kyle i have to because of how my life is. I can only go for an afternoon walk through this beautiful garden or spin. Daily time in the word of god. Ten times out of ten. I'm going to say. Hey you're going to have to give up that walk. Just because i don't i don't think there's any way around scripture being the normative place of spiritual growth in a christian's life is beautiful almost who says consider the heavens. How my gosh. I'm sorry because i started this. I pushed the jt division baton. I also also remember that the longest psalm in the psalms is a meditation on creation. Oh that's right. I'm just saying. I'm just saying you picked an either or saying to one in front of that psalm. Nineteen and turn it into a one nine thousand. That's the clip All right let's let's before we take a quick break to hear from one of our sponsors. I want us asked this question. Why all this talk of the wrath of god because you know there's a lot of counter cultural stuff in this passage but right out of the gate we're taking like verse eighteen for the wrath of god we. It doesn't matter what the rest of this passage says that right there. That immediately puts us in a position. We're going okay. This doesn't feel like what most people want their relationship with god or do they think about. Nobody wants to think about god's wrath. We're right out of the gate. Why all this. Why is the wrath of guide a response to this unrighteousness. Well first of all. I don't think. Paul has taken an evangelism course. Because dang he went straight from. I'm not ashamed of the gospel is talking about the wrath of god so obviously he's different formulas in different epistles. But it is interesting to me here in this. Probably the most expansive unpacking of of the gospel is gonna do that. This is his his starting point And he's attaching i. I mean. I think he's. He's what he's doing here is he's pointing them to the breaking of the first and second commands like right out of the gate. Humanity says no to god's law We're not gonna keep god as god alone and we are going to worship the creation instead of the creator and the old testament has been explicit. That those who reject god's law are subject to god's wrath so he's he setting us up for his whole discussion of law and grace although he does not explicitly. Here refer to the ten commandments. I i would say that's worries. He's headed yeah. I think you're right. And the wrath of god. I think oftentimes when we hear this our presumption is that wrath is an inappropriate response like we hear wrath of god and say well. Why is god being so vengeful right Why guide exacting judgment. But the reality is that if god is the god of the bible is who he says he is. This is exactly what you would expect from him. The wrath of god is an expression of god's holiness and contrast with sin and unrighteousness with evil with wickedness and. It's a response of god's love. Yancey you the broken this of the world. It's responsive It's responsive is love in that god is seeking to make right would send has made wrong. I mean i often ask people and they tell me. I know why Why god's rat has to be despite against it. I often ask them what would be the alternative Tell me tell me what the opposite of it would be. what what. What is the alternative. Way that you would imagine that god has no wrath against any anything or just no wrath against your said because typically when you start exploring this everybody wants god's wrath to be against some kind of said what he's he's gonna address that too he's getting he's gonna go out on that but also i think it's helped me to think of. His wrath is an expression of his love. Like even. This is kind of a a corny example. Jt sends bailey to preschool. And let's say that a little kid is mean to her on the play wrath of heaven on this little. Yeah where our natural response to something or someone that we love deeply is when when that person is harmed or is in danger of harm is wrath and so that's that was really helpful connection for me as i was trying to wrestle down what to do with the wrath guide. I think something that made me off. I'm honest with you a little uncomfortable. As of setting for this and reading this passages so this. Some of the scholarly debate around the inverse eighteen. The greek term revealed is apocalypse dough. And it's in the present tense. And i think often we can. It's easy to think about the wrath of god in an s. scatalogical or an end time future sense like wilder. That's coming in. Paul paul also highlights here. We'll get to the senate. In a few episodes the mercy of god the patients of god that he is being patient with us in this time of rebellion. But he also seems to be highlighting a both and here that it's not just at god's wrath is going to be revealed but that god's wrath is currently being held up against our rebellion and disobedience and that that is something that is different then like preaching a hellfire. Brimstone serban that. If you don't repent one day you're going to experience god's wrath. He seems to be also saying that that the wrath of got his currently a part of our lived reality now. I don't want to suggest that anybody who's walking through any kind of challenge right now or difficulty or or suffering that that is god's wrath more than more than likely it's absolutely not god's wrath. It's just the reality living in a broken world but that isn't to say that we don't incur the discipline of god in our lives in the midst of our rebellion. Yeah and we're gonna get the when we get into the language he gave them up. You know three times. Says he gave him up. He gave them up. He gave them up. And that put me in mind of the hardening affair. Heart back in exodus. It's like in order for us to be subject to god's wrath. All he has to do is give us over to that. Which we've said we want to turn. He's not up there throwing thunderbolts. At us he's up there letting the consequences play out for our hardness of heart. That's that's kind of a. That's a helpful way for me to to think about it. It reminds me also of the scene in the garden where he basically lays out for the man and the woman. Okay guess what this is. Your new reality shows up. Every day in the garden to inflict to instigate conflict between the man and the woman. He's like this is what you have off have offered yourself up to from the aspiring musician to the church worship pastor the worship initiative dot com has resources breath everyone. The worship initiative is an online training resource that breaks down the most popular worship songs one video at a time and teachers the bible to build up worship teams and musicians around the world at the worship initiative dot. You can find everything instrument training from professional musicians resources on how to be an effective worship leader from voices like shane and shane. Phil wickham john. Piper vince stuart and many more start learning more today by using code knowing faith for your first month. free. Christians are designed to grow minneapolis. Don't really know if we are well. Life has a new bible study. That's just now coming out. Called marks of a disciple from pastor dean and sarah it it he shares six measurements. That can help us see if. You're developing spiritually now. This isn't some kind of checklist or punch-card he's just simply pointing out a group of traits that are found in scripture. That should be evident life of every follower of jesus as you pursue these markers. Your faith can flourish stood. God intends for it to check the book out at lifeway dot com slash marks. Obey the disciple. So let's talk about this story here Looking in verse. Twenty one and moving forward we. There's a little bit of a shift. You kind of have like this high level kind of observations about okay. Here's natural theology. Here's the judgment of god. Against the fact that men reject or that humanity rejects God the creator. But now we're getting a little bit of the story for although although they knew god though they they knew they did not honor him as god or give thanks to him but they became futile and their thinking and their foolish hearts were dark. It feels like the tone has shifted here. We've moved from. Here's kind of what happened at a conceptual level 'til like here's how it played out real time. So it's like we're talking about specific people or groups of people claiming to be wise became fools. They changed the glory of the immortal. God for images resembling mortal man birds and animals and creeping things. Now this story here it begins with an idolatry problem right like that's what's happening. There's an exchange. that's happening they They don't see themselves as subservient to the creator they reject the creator for their own will and they begin to worship other things They begin to practice idolatry. Which is the expectation of something that is not guide to the place where only god should be. And what's happening here is it. Looks like there is the act of suppression. you know they. They knew god. They did not honor him give. Thanks him. they became funeral. their thinking. foolish hearts were clearly wise. They begin and then here. This first exchange the glory of the immortal god for images resembling moral man birds animals and creeping things. Now i've been as i've been studying this passage both to preach it and then for this podcast. One of the things that came up is that some scholars suggest that this is really talking about the pre diluvian or pre flood experience of humanity. That there was a cycle of wickedness that had started with adam and eve. And it's not to say that it's distant from us. It's just to say that that's kind of where the roots of the story are and yet that cycle we know. That cycle repeats itself through the old testament. God's people do this over and over and over again so it is a cycle of thin but when you hear this story i guess. Do you feel like oh. It's uniquely situated to a specific time were. Okay yeah i mean. I think one of the reasons that i would push back. I mean it certainly is reflective of that time so i'm not trying to say that that's not accurate to say that it applies to that time but even my introducing these categories in verse twenty two claiming to be wise. They became fools. That's an appeal to a much bigger portion of scripture. I think paul is thinking of the wisdom and folly paradigm that in proverbs and elsewhere and that's characteristic of all humankind. Yup absolutely that. There is a pattern that humanity has been in since the beginning where they continue to make this foolish exchange unwise urging. Certainly you're right. We see this play out throughout the old testament. Among god's people over and over again whether it's with bell or to the ashra polls or it's the gods of egypt babylon or whoever they're very Very inclined rise. All of humanity is to make this exchange of worshiping y'all way for worshiping a create a creation creature And i think that it's kind of a clever thing that he does here with the pronouns because he got he uses day them they them they them and then we know he's gonna flip that further down and it's going to become you so he's i think he's actually intentionally allowing his listener to speculate about norway. Who who's they you know like is this me or no probably not me because this is some bad stuff. He's listing off here so this can't be about me this is about someone else and i think that's what it's doing here and we know because of what's coming in chapter two which will get through the next episode that there is already some confusion among the church in rome over really. Who has the mary. Hi greg and i think you're exactly right jane. I think in this passage the way that he's writing this the way he's communicating. It is leaving room. Probably for the jews and the gentiles in that room. I went to jews at this point. Are looking over the gentiles. Like yeah you. Filthy saturday nearest. You're in rome. With all of your caesar colt and all this stuff. And i bet the gentiles looking over at the jews. It'd be like listen. We know your story. And that's what we're talking about here is yeah break commands that we didn't even have by the way yeah. I think you're right john. I think you're right that there is a intentional. It's a set up a little bit. it's add up. Yeah i think you're right. He's is setting up that punch. Let me let me ask you this. I find that when. I teach this passage or when i talk about idolatry generally people's imaginations go to like the most basic forms of idolatry. They hear this and they're like i don't do any of that like i don't have idols right like i don't. I would never shane. J- i would never worship an image resembling mortal man or birds or animals or creeping things. That sounds so silly. And i think there's sometimes when we think about idolatry using the imagery of the bible it can feel really like the imaginative gap between us and the world is scripture is very wide because we don't inhabit this kind of imaginative world that they did but i just wanna be clear idolatry is still up is still a problem. Yes people still make this exchange right. Maybe it's not images resembling an animal or bird but it can just as easily be any number of very real things that people place their hope and say. Hey i'm going to worship this and give my life and surrender to this as opposed to god yes jt. Have you seen that to be true. Oh absolutely not only in my own life. But i think in the world that we all inhabit in live in and i wanna be i wanna be really clear about what i'm going to say here but like we just what came to mind when you said you know worshipping images resembling a bird or created things like and i was watching a football game last night of a bunch of you know fifty year old men. Worshiping a seahawk. Now of course talking about something different. I love football calls show ball. We're in no way suggesting that you shouldn't have joined god's created world. We were just saying that. There's so much to enjoy about what god has created but like think about what happens in our hearts when a bunch of nineteen year. Old kids throat. You know score a touchdown with a football happens in your heart when you. It's not just sports. It could be going to a movie. Theater could be Like we just said going. On a walk and worshiping i lynn colorado people move to colorado to live the good life outdoors and one of the hardest things that i have to do on sunday. Mornings is is it's l. people you need to be here not at the lake because you have the opportunity to worship not just a creator but the redeemer which is what we just talked about and so again i'm not suggesting that loving and nfl. Football team is idolatry. But it can be absolutely it really can be giving yourself over to an inversion of the created order that you were never meant to take that much affection joy pleasure and desire in well and i think that's the tricky thing with idolatry is sometimes outwardly. There's nothing wrong with the behavior. It all goes back to motive right like i think one of the most common Ways to shame young moms is around idolizing their kids. You know it's. I don't make your kids in idle. While a mom who is fully invested in the bringing of her kids may be doing that because she needs something from it that is unholy but she also may be doing it as an expression of her love for god and i can't look at that woman and know what her motive is necessarily but the lord knows and so you know it's like the seahawks some of those. Some of those people are just. They're having a good time in celebrating. God's goodness us through professional sports other people are so invested in that they're going to punch a hole in their chair. These don't go the way that they are hoping that the game so sometimes you can identify idolatry pretty clearly and other times you can't and he's obviously but paul is dealing with here is hey this this is a heart issue that we have to get down to and it's a hard issue for every single one of us so you may escaped idolatry claim with regard to your kids but is it harbored somewhere else or with regard to the way you think about sports harvard somewhere else and i think what he's saying here is yes none of us is free from idolatry absolutely absolutely and part of the consequence of working out that idolatry or living that idolatry is this next phrase guide gave them up it says in verse twenty four therefore god gave them up in the love their hearts to impurity to dishonoring of their bodies among themselves because they exchanged the truth about god for a lie and worship and serve the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever so we get this 'cause -ality here god has given them up because of their persistence in idolatry. That's what's happening so this phrase god gave them up. Jimmy already mentioned this. And i think you brought in a really good comparison with the story of pharaoh. Could you maybe just circle back to what you were saying about. What does this phrase guide gave them up. Indicate i have something. I want to talk about here. As far as free will and determinism goes but yeah about what. You're saying about farrow also. There's if you notice it's in verse. Twenty four it's verse twenty six and verse twenty eight and so some of what i think. Paul is doing to the way that moses does this in the exodus narrative is. He's repeating god giving them over and he's doing it Surrounding bunch of different descriptions of the ways that people behave when they're given over like he doesn't say god gave them up and then he doesn't expand on it. He's gonna give some color to that in the same way. The exodus story did this. It's like if you thought that pharaoh was only committed to his idolatry on one level. Guess what here's another one. If he thought he was only committed to it on two levels right in and he goes through ten levels basically before he's ultimately not broken is idolatry he. He has a moment where he goes. you know what. Maybe this is smart for me to let them go and then he changes his mind again because his heart has grown. If it started out hard has only gotten harder as the story goes along. That's the progression that policy pointing us to here is you started with a hard heart. And then he just kept getting harder. yes yes. in god's allowance. were per mittens of this. I think a lot we get to this passage you. We have a couple of opportunities to talk about this in romans. Certainly here it's gonna come up in romans eight. It's gonna come up in romans nine. But i think when we get to pass it's like this. It's very easy for us to say. Okay we'll guide dave them. What does that mean to. God just gives up on them right. Or god's great distance efficient like no the we are free to act in accordance with our desires and the unrighteous and idolatrous heart has only one set of desires and it is the desires for continued unrighteousness wickedness and so gods god's permits his allowance of them to continue in. This is not guide throwing in the towel. It's not god saying. I'm not sovereign over all things. It's guide allowing humanity to act in accordance with the sinful. Wicked dodgers desires of their heart. You want this. You can have it and there will be consequences attached to having it. That's different than saying god merely didn't care or guide threw in the towel on them or god resigned. He threw up his hands. I can't do anything with you. or even god's saying i'm going to force this upon you. None of those things are. What's at play here. What's at play. God saying you know what i want you. I'm going to allow you to act in accordance with your desires and if your desires are wicked. I'm going to allow you to act in accordance with them. We know he doesn't do that. Into perpetuity because god intervenes graciously to give us new hearts in new sets of desires. But in this part of the story as a part of the wickedness of humanity where it we're seeing is that it is not It is not outside of god's will and character for him to allow sinful human beings to act in accordance with their desires until they realize how bankrupt they are What he said in the garden he said you will surely die and rather than an instantaneous. death it is this hardening hardening hardening hardening. Until it's i think the other thing that's fascinating to me is like if you read You know In isaiah there's the description of the man who carves the block of wood. And you know and then is not this thing right in thing in my right hand ally this inanimate object that is it's it's a it's hard and it's almost like over time. We calcified into the idol itself we become. Just we're no longer. The hearts of flesh were were this idolatrous heart of stone that because we worship self so long that it becomes inanimate we essentially we died spiritually you know one of the ways agusan talks about this in his book on confessions. He's if you've read the confessions it It's a really important work. I think especially for our day but he talks about just the nature of sin. And i'm thinking about this. Get ready to teach in our institute. Here on the nature of senator. In a few weeks he talks about going to a peach tree to for no reason at all. Bunch of his buddies. Come to him into. Hey let's go to this peace tree and shake off pizzas down so we can get peaches and i won't recount the whole episode. But one of the things he talks about. i think it specifically highlighted here in verse. Thirty two is that he says it wasn't just that i delighted in getting the peaches is that i delighted in this in itself like and that's what i think you're talking about janice there's a sense in which we not only do become calcified. I think is the word that you used. We enjoy the calcification like it isn't just that so like let's just say one of our listeners which i would imagine or we could say all of our listeners. All of us battle and rage against this infamous and broken have the world. what augusta is getting. I don't think he can understand the depths of this passage until you get to the point of the realization that you don't just enjoy the results of your said the pleasure or the gratification of your sin or what brings you at the end of your sin but you actually because of the inversion of the human heart enjoyed the sin itself well and there are two ways to escape feelings of guilt about your sin. One is to repent and the other is to repeat the thin over and over again until you no longer feel remorse. manuel woo. sunshine say sponsors. Here's what here's what i want us to do. And i want us to double down on this and they want us to say very clearly and the reason for it is because of how this passage gets used. And i would say abuse so i want to be really clear. Let's identify before we move into the next section of this. What is the core issue so far in this passage. Like if somebody asks you what's the defining transgressions the defining problem of romans one eighteen through thirty two. Would it be fair to say that we would all say. Idolatry yes jt. Would you feel good about that. I would say a dollar tree. I wanna use a different word. Not because disagrees. But it's been helpful for me as i've thought about this because he he both gives like a spiritual send but also physical sin it's inversion an inversion is a result of idolatry. We invert the creator for the creation. We invert natural order of things for an unnatural order. Things we all are inverting. The way god intends his creation to work. Yes but but so far. The fundamental inversion the fundamental idolatry the fundamental rebellion and rejection is is a vertical one between us and god. Yes that's been that's the foundation for and the reason. I want us to say that really clearly is were about if we've been hearing about the the the story of our broken the so far or about start talking about the impacts of our broken but the impact of that broken nece comes as a result of that foundation. This is that we send because we are sinners waiting. We're not centers because we said we move from. This is who we are to. This is what we do and yet this passage oftentimes when it gets deployed at a popular level. It's emphasis is almost always squarely in. Here's a bunch of bad stuff that you shouldn't do and look at how our culture does all this bad stuff. Let's go beat them over the head for doing all the bad stuff. We gotta talk about the impact of broken. It's true we one hundred. It's there we can't avoid it and we're about to dive right into it. But if we missed the story that it's embedded in we will not be communicating this the way that paul intends to communicate. Yeah that's a really important thing. You're pointing out that we started with the horizontal at. I'm sorry with the vertical Relationship and then we moved to the horizontal. Which is that pattern. You see all over the place and what he's basically doing here. Is he showing us that. The current state of humanity apart from the intervention of the gospel is that we hate god with heart soul mind and strength and therefore hey our neighbor as we hate ourselves are filled with self loathing. We we lash out at our neighbors and it's all because it started with with with a breaking of the vertical relationship and the solution. Nan is not simply to start loving your neighbor right. This this solution is going to be learned to love the lord. Your god the way you were created to so the immediate consequences that we get into in verses twenty six three twenty seven into twenty eight and thirty two. We here for this reason. We hear the phrase again. God gave them up to dishonorable passions for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature and the men likewise gave natural relations with women were consumed with passion for one another men committing shameless acts with mid receiving themselves the due penalty for their. I want to keep going your because this is a whole and since they did not see fit to acknowledge god. God gave them up to a debase. Mind to do what ought to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness. Evil covetousness malice envy murder. Strive to seat malicious gossip slanders haters of god insolent haughty boastful inventors of evil disobedience apparent foolish faithless artless ruthless so the consequences of this idolatry leads to an immorality problem. We are now living not just in rebellion against god but contrary to his law and his standard country to where we talked about the righteousness of god we talked about righteousness who got is. It's his nature we also talked about righteousness. God is a phrase that can be used for his holy standard. What god does and what he expects. We've we've already begun in this passage. Shang we exchange the gory of the righteous guide for unrighteous creatures. And now we're getting to the place of we're walking. In contrast were walking opposition to god's holy standard and this is what it looks like. So what kind of behavior does this lead to. It's not monolithic. Even though oftentimes again this passage is treated as if only one said namely sexual said is on the table. But there's a lot more on this buffet of broken this than sexual set right. I mean we hear about malice deceit. Strife murder disobedient to parents. Yeah he's basically he's hitting every aspect of old testament law here. I mean he is and i. It almost feels to me. I know it's god's word and i know that it's spirit inspired and so there's order to it or sense to it but it feels like he's like look at all of this he's not he's not giving you like an exhaustive list. I don't even know that he's giving you listed as ordered in a particular way to achieve a particular and he might be But i think anyone can read this and take a plane reading away from it. That is like guys it's bad in it's pervasively bad and that's the that's the big point that should be drawn. I think from reading this is this what hardness of heart looks like it touches every piece of humanity. Exactly one thing. I wondered whenever i was reading this The first time and i was i was studying to preach it. I i wondered janeth. It was a little bit of a setup like the first part of it was in the ordering so just got that. I'm not saying it is but just go with me verse. Twenty six twenty seven. Kim keep in mind where this is at their in right. Chintala jewish christians. I'm imagining. i'm just. I'm guessing a little bit here. But based off of the climate of rome. I'm imagining the jews. Had probably castigated gentile christians for their sexual ethic. Oh for sure. I'm just going to suggest that probably would have been the case. And i'm thinking in verse. Twenty six hundred twenty seven at this moment. Paul is striking a nerve with the jewish christians. And they're probably looking the other side of the room so to speak and being like. Yeah we know about your wickedness. This is all your this. All your ugliness verse. Twenty eight in. Cincinnati did not see fit to acknowledge god gave them up to a debase. Mind to do not to be done. I bet the jews are expecting paul's gonna hit again. It sounds like he's about just double down again but they were filled with and now this taxonomy is far more comprehensive in an almost feels like a retelling of the ten commandments explicitly. Like these are all the ways that you've broken it. So i'm not saying that i know that to be true. I've just got since up between the gentile and jewish christians there if this was ordered in one way or another it might be ordered for exactly the problem. He's going to be addressing in romans too where he's going. Hey neither one of you can sit in moral judgment on each other. Yeah i think it's part of the setup for sure and that is not to diminish at all that this is one of the clearest articulation of the christian sexual ethic or at least an aspect of it but but. I do think that there's a bigger thing happening here. And i think you're exactly right. I think he's he's wanting he's wanting his he knows. The letter's being read. He knows they're all sitting there He wants them in the right spot When he's going to deliver the sucker punch absolutely. And i don't think we can walk away from the impact of this passage in in your right to call attention to i don't want to. I think we have to be clear. That paul is pointing at sexual in this passage. And he's saying very loudly sexual send dishonors god and it's a fruit of rejecting god and his purposes for the world that is clear saying that here and he's saying it here in a very clear way this includes all sorts of surrendering the sexual ethic. It's not just one. It's pornography and sexual activity outside of marriage sexual abuse and yes. It's sexual activity with people of the same gender that this is all folded in. it's sexual immorality. Broadly not narrowly. Well i mean the you know with the i. Therefore god gave them up in verse. Twenty four. He says in the less of their hearts. So he doesn't even start with adultery. He pulls jesus juke because this is what. Jesus does in the sermon on the mount. He says you've heard it said not do not commit adultery. So there's the christian sexual ethic sex belongs inside marriage to man and woman but then he says what's your problem is actually not adultery. It's lust and so paul doesn't even he doesn't even speak about adultery as he's he's leading into this he just goes straight to the heart. Needs like less is your problem. Here's here's how less expresses itself. Not just in your sexual ethic but in every area of your life when it when it When it is what controls yes absolutely. I think we have to pause here in just speak to the audience. You know some application here. This is stepping away from just the exegesis of this tax talking. Broadly about this. But i think it has to be clearly said in a needs to be said loudly and more often. Everybody is born with sexual broken. Everybody there's not a way of following. Jesus that is not going to require all of us. You practise self-denial and self-sacrifice when it comes to the lust of our heart and the sexual desires of our lives period. That's true for everybody who has ever lived. That's right reason for that. Is because sin has broken all of us at the most fundamental levels. And i think that if we i think a lotta times i see this in my own congregation with people that are walking in the way of jesus but also really practicing very deliberate sacrifice of sexual desire. I feel like a lot of times. We can talk about the impact of sin on our sexual desires and a very mono dimensional way where we basically like the people who experienced sexual desires. That are different from mine. Are the only people who experienced broken sexual desires. That's not the case. Yeah everybody actual desires broken. I think i think the non pastoral responses to sexual broken nece are always a result of a denial of our own sexual broken nece in. That's i mean. Paul is going to go there. He's going to say you. Who are you to judge which doesn't mean that we don't call out sexual thin. It means that we do so recognizing that we were part of that system like there is something in us that wants to assign a greater level of severity to someone else's sexual sin problem than to our own and i think we have to be really careful about that. I think we have to ask ourselves. What's inside of me. That makes me want to to do that. Yup so but it's not the only marx of a debase mind that we find is your sexual broken as we find all other marks of debase mind we find all of this list and paul ends with verse thirty two saying though they know god's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die they not only do them to give approval to those who practice them. So this is the ri- the unrighteousness and the wickedness on display here. The god's wrath is against the god has given the people over to is not merely they're committing the sin. It's the approval of that and now get a sense of this feels like it strikes home very closely with us in our our experience here and would have would have struck home with the audience in rome. There were things that paul has just mentioned in this list that the culture in rome would have given explicit or implicit approval to do that the world around and the same is true in our world today regardless of how you think about some of these issues here. Is there any debate at all that we live in a world where tacit approval or explicit approval is given to walking in the unrighteous acts. That are named here now. That incontestable absolutely is given approval over and over and over again and so we are in a situation where the cross pressure is not. Merely god's will for our lives are broken desires the no. The cross pressure is god's will if our lives are broken desires and the outright approval of the world to walk in our broken desires. And not god's will sometimes these passages can be used to point the finger at the sins that we most hate but the point of a passage like this is to get to the point where you cannot point a finger at anybody else but yourself. This list is so exhaustive that nobody gets to read it and say look at those centers over there. This list is so exhausted that we're supposed to read it and say look at the center in here. Look at the center in me because if you could do this you think yourself i mean. Look at all those people over there. I can't believe how awful they are horrible. You've missed the point of the passage absolutely absolutely and This passage is really going to be crucial for our understanding of romans too which will cover in the next episode because paul is going to be getting right to the heart of the judgment between gentle jewish christians. There the church in rome Listen i i. I know this was a longer episode. I just felt like we needed to take more time with this passage. It's a really important one. It's often misunderstood and it's really pivotal. I think for the next couple of chapters as we explore those together. listen We are so grateful for our sponsored. The southern baptist theological seminary if next step in your service to christ and his church is additional theological training. Please register today to attend. Southern seminary's preview day on october fifteenth for just twenty five dollars southern will cover two nights of lodging as well as all your meals on preview day. you can reserve your spot now by going to sp t. s. dot edu slash preview and our next episode here on knowing faith. We're going to begin to uncover. How god's law might help or hurt our problem grace and peace.