20 Episode results for "Southern Baptist Church"

S1 E6: When You Say, Yes, Gods Love Will Flood In with Joshua Choquette

On The Way

39:36 min | 8 months ago

S1 E6: When You Say, Yes, Gods Love Will Flood In with Joshua Choquette

"Welcome to on the way a podcast about life but not just any life it's about life with Jesus. Why do people follow Jesus? How do they get started? And what difference does following Jesus, make in their lives before Christians had a name. They were known as people of the way. People who followed Jesus teachings. People have been on the way for nearly two thousand years now. During the podcast we explore the ways that people become followers of Jesus and why and what difference following Jesus, makes in their lives. On the way is produced by the Baptist Standard. Donors supported provider of news opinion and resources for living like Jesus. I'm Eric Black editor of the Baptist Standard I'm glad you're with us today. We have with us this morning Josh shook it from well, say from right now you're in New York City but I'm GonNa let you tell us where you're from and a little bit about what you're doing and I'm really glad that you're with us this morning you have pretty busy days. A. Currently, I'm in New York. City as you said, and I live in upstate New York when I'm not doing craziness but I was actually born in. Greenville South Carolina. So a little bit of down. South. Until I was five years old and then I moved up and moved all around the ARC steak, his dad was in the navy and that lot moving. Okay. and. You are a army reserve chaplain. Air Force Air Force. C. Yeah I. Just wanted to see if I could stir something up. Yeah. That's right. That's right little difference yet air national guard chaplain and your endorsed by Texas Baptists? Absolutely. Okay. How did that happen? Well actually when I first became a chaplain I was endorsed by NAM. which which, which I, love I mean that's where rice brought me to face a southern Baptist Church and so I go to Southern Baptist Church right now. So I feel very at home. They're feel like that's the part of the body that I really identify with The. The only thing as I was going through, they have certain. There's certain small differences between southern. Baptists. Texas Baptists, and I felt like God calling me into another space and that I met somebody from Texas Baptist at at our State Chapel Naylor a told me all about it felt God. Prodding may through that and then we had the interview went through the process and the just felt especially after meeting and talking to Bobby. As like no this is this is where I need to be. This is where God wants me to go so okay, that's always shifted. All right. We're going to take sponsor break and we'll be right back. Since nineteen fifty, two south, Texas Children's Home Ministry has focused on healing hearts and sharing. Hope their nine ministries focus on helping hurting children and families all regardless of an individual's ability to pay to find out more visit www dot s. t. t. h. m. dot org. I learned about you in Baptist. Press article. That was talking about the work that you're doing in New York City, and so one of the things that was in the article that really struck me grab my attention was that you said that you had before you came to Christ. You had been a WICCAN for eleven years. and. I I don't. I haven't come across very many people who? Were WICCAN and became followers of Christ and I'm interested by that. So to the questions that we ask are, how did you become a follower of Christ and what difference does following Christ make in Your Life So how did you? Want to go back even before you became a follower of Christ and What drew you to Wicca. While up so as raised. With my mom and dad with the idea that they didn't want to put us in a face because they fell in. I've heard this a lot from people. Doing, ministry that they were forced to it. And that that didn't give them a choice and so the kind of rebel against that both of them at the time of my upbringing work, go to church themselves and didn't want me to be pigeonhole today. while. So I I respect that they gave me that choice. You know on the flip side of that the world doesn't give you choice. So my friends that were with me in high school, right they were pursuing different things. A ceremonial magic, wicca. s things and they're the people hung around with. So I figured, Hey, let me give this a try, and so I did we did a ceremony a cast a spell if you will In one of these ceremonies and the spell worked pretty dramatically. Specifically, it was somebody that had had their grandfather die. At we did a spell and they had a dream about them that following night, and so that was kind of the I sense that there is these powers that work, and if I was going to do something spiritual I wanted it to be real and that's one of the things identity high school about a lot of people that call themselves Christians as seem like it was a title and less of a way of being to me if it was gonna be something needed to be away being so interesting that that's how he started. For you wicca seemed more real than. Christianity or Other options absolutely. It was something that you were presented with. Yes. Yeah. Because the people around now. So now, really Konta end the another thing about the pagan face the WICCAN. tradition that's alluring is just focus on mother nature in the Earth. So, and enjoying the beauty and finding the sense of your spirituality within that environment. And so where church can? Sometimes. Feel like that's taken away short in a building. Interesting Yeah. which we're not so much right now. So for you. What one of the things that really resonated with you was wicker's. Attention to and sort of love of nature. Yes absolutely. Yeah. And then it seemed relatively peaceful. Even before you go into a ceremony like as part of the ceremony as you're entering into it, they say the phrase imperfect love and imperfect trust. Right. It seems to you know in the wiccan read. If you know it, they don't have a rulebook Any sort of scripture is anything that have read as as harming none do what you will. So it has A. Simplicity about it. Yeah. Yeah, and that's attractive. Offers a bit of freedom. Yes. Yeah. So, how did you? How are you reintroduced or introduced I guess to Christ and tell us about. That process of going from because I guess I don't WanNA put words in your mouth, but I'm already I'm thinking. Okay. So you were hanging around friends people at school wherever that were into pagan spirituality and Wicca, and that really drew you because it it was more real. It was simple There's this love and respect of nature, and that seem more real to you than other options and then all of a sudden. Some. Yeah is a huge shift I. Think. Where it starts is with my wife she you know we've been dating for fuse before she became my wife we had been wife one year. She was raising the church. Now the. Church very often what she following really living lifestyle that was conducive obviously of a follow. Christ not really like she would say now but raised in it, and so she would wanna go occasionally. And so that was kind our deals that we would support one another and and so I would go with her. And it was in US Southern Baptist Church in Maryland. And the pastor there as drew softener and he you know speaking hundreds of people at listening he. For some reason, a spirit was starting to speak to me. It's like a lot of the things that I didn't like Christianity. He would address your sermon at. You'd address it in a way that felt more right. well, I can tell you the biggest one. Okay. happened. The biggest one was that he addressed on the day that I came to fe was the fear of the Lord I'd heard I had gone with friends throughout my years in the navy prior to that and sense then entered the fire and brimstone sermon. Ohka. Quite. So I heard lots of fear. Add to me as like a that doesn't sound like a good god God that just wants you to be scared of him like what kind kinda got that and so drew was you know being led by the spirit he was addressing fear. Got The fear of the Lord and God's Love in the same context and how these two things worked together. and. It just seem like all the sudden resist I unlike because normally when I heard fear the Lord firemen who's outside of that's love. Right. Usually, it was like I'm GonNa scare the Bejesus out of you. I'm really scared. Make you scared of Jesus and you'RE GONNA come to face that way to me that didn't resonate. But when you fraught these two things together like the fear of the Lord in God's. Undying and overwhelming love just started to make sense to me. That really had okay. Now fear has a purpose Fear is drawing you to something deeper and more important. Yes it is a loving God but sometimes, we need that fear to get us to a place of love. So. It's that was the he piece that started to draw me to him. And then as he progressed in the sermon. He used an analogy you know when he was getting to the invitation and he he has a gift, a spiritual gift of evangelism and lots of people come to faith at this particular one he used the analogy of a submarine. Well, I had been a navy submariners for quite a long time in my life right I never heard this an analogy from him before sunset listened to a lot of his servants. So it was just God just placing that right there and so he's talking about Marine is like and God's love is sitting behind. It's like pressurized water behind that door at summary door? And if you say yes to guy if you say, yes to the the love that he wants to give you, you will open that door it'll come flooding into your life and it was incredible because when he said that I felt something flood into my life I. Felt this loving presence that I've never experienced. That was unbelievable. Just come into the AD. It was overwhelming. There was there's no signal to that. Right? It was like did I have the choice absolutely and it was an amazing choice so From that moment, it was just as beauty in tears obviously streaming down the because I felt the repentance in my heart. But it was a good loving repentance like I was surrounded by loving God that. that. Overwhelmingly shouldn't have picked me and shouldn't have forgiven me but dead. So. That's incredible Yeah. My life started changing. As you can imagine. Yeah. Where's your wife at this point? My Wife. So was a funny conversation after the fact. Says she's deployed to Djibouti. Africa. 'cause using the navy as well And so I give her a call while she deployed and she kinda, you know she just wants to talk about her day. So I let her talk about her day. Right cheese rushing through things and then enclosing. Oh, baby all before you go I know you wanna go can I just tell you something? Yeah. I told her that she was like she was just like flabbergasted. What? Like issues like are you Add add so at first it was a it was she couldn't believe it right at first she was excited and. Then over the next year, it was one of the most agonizing times in my life. Wow. So Act ising because. person she married changing drastically dramatically. She did not marry she married after all Wiccan live like a weekend and. Leaving in that same space. In No, I was changing at a quick pace and which was beautiful, but it was also. Terrifying I was losing my wife. a huge fine. So. That was really tough time and at the end of that year, we got separated because the military center after training. After six weeks pensacola incident me upstate New York. And I saw that I was just so humble I was pregnant. I was like there's nothing more I can do feels like this separation permanent she is so running away at this point. And while she was on. Had some sort of piffle effect on she described it but is something that is beyond description. It was just I. Just know it was an answer to prayer. And the dramatic change in her life after that was pretty pretty powerful. Ad Sense that now we've been both growing in living with together so. Yeah. I know I don't necessarily want you to tell her story, but can you tell us briefly what happened? The superpower well it. Who knows what it was? Okay Ossete, in my wife's memory is always. The fondest nowadays but she does remember when she told me about it she's like I don't know what happened. I just lost an hour my life. Just like I just everything turned white. and. I just felt like somebody was speaking to me. And the last thing I remember was that it was telling me that I should stay with you and felt like a divine presence in some sort of sense and she snapped out of it and she called me and was like barely speaking to me and the way her life changed after that I don't know what happened but I know it was powerful. I know is God in some way because her life followed that change that experience in a crazy way. So. Incredible. PRETTY INCREDIBLE We're going to take a sixty second sponsor break and we'll be right back. Hi Ground Advisers has a ninety year history of providing investment management and planned giving solutions to churches, faith based organizations, and charitably minded individuals dedicated to transforming lives. High ground is trusted by over four hundred and fifty nonprofit clients, and we're one of them highground his partnered with Babbit Standard for over seventy years by offering a comprehensive charitable giving an investment solutions model, which includes asset management plan giving education and development account support services, real estate, and Minerals Management and expert legal consultation I ground in the. Baptist Standard share similar values such as serving those who are called and dedicated to transforming lives and a trusted caretaker of legacies. They also value good stewardship helping those who desire to be good stewards of their financial resources to find creative giving solutions to fulfill that calling they know what they do to protect, strengthen, and grow. Our mission is alternately in service to the Gospel. To learn more about how high ground advisers can with you or your organization visit their website at high ground advisors dot Org. So I'm curious as you're growing. In your faith and growing in Christ and she's had this experience and then she begins to grow in her faith in Christ. Where does this take you? US together I mean. Some describing us together in our walk of life way for the three years of US dating for first year marriage we fought all the time and obviously got much worse started came to face. We were don't know why we got married to be honest. The way we fought I mean we obviously deeply cared about each other. That was that was not not a question but a we fought in a way that tore each other down on a regular basis at least weekly if not more and this was our experience in our breaking off coming together. Then as God entered the equation for both lost and started drawing us together. It's almost like I now understood why we won't be together or why we were together like what purpose in all and there was so much more peace. There is so much more peace. We still have very strong personalities, but we also have humility and we're both seeking somebody that is stronger that us. which brings this piece to our relationship which never had. And we through that, we've become best friends, we become secrets we've had. Four children together four little girls. And it's been an amazing kind of rich growing, and it's also why feel like my faces grown so much because not only did I. You know half do. A lot of change right to do I came from a very liberal. Way Wickham lifestyle, and the all or spiritual thoughts. To a very conservative faith, but then I had to justify it like, am I willing to lose my marriage for? And Sarah. Right yeah. It was very difficult and so it made me constantly questioned in work through my faith in expedited manner, and then after we came together than it was this growing together and now what does that even look like so that we're both changing. CDOT work so It was it is. It is blasting at still is got still working that in our time separated here in New York. City. While I'm serving down here and she's up there with our four little girls. I still feel God growing us into a new spiritual space together. We're just talking about it last night. Yeah that's pretty sweet. Now. If, I remember right in the Baptist press article, you volunteered to go to New York City. Yes okay. As, opposed, to being volunteered to go to New York City. That might not have happened I was. Still time up at my face. So it was on orders, but my base in upstate New York. So there's an as a full-time person you don't have to. It's called AGR active guard reserve at, and you don't have to go to state accusations because your job is on base. That's why GR got to Yeah. So I. I might at this point on maybe I got dragged at some point. Now it's all hands every single one of our chaplains on basis somewhere. Maybe. but I just immediately when this happened. I felt bad pulling me. To go especially to the city. I don't know that that's where it seems to be I feel like once may there I'm so me and my wife prayed about it I because before they had asked me to go I I felt the poll so we prayed. And then a few days later they asked me. Yes I I would love to volunteer. Got You. Well so back before. Volunteering to go to New York City at some point you said, I should be a chaplain or I want to be a chaplain or God is telling me to be a chaplain how how did that happen? Yeah. It was kind of the last one of those. and. Came from other from other people at first. And it was one of those things that I told God. No. So I was like no way I did not see my life go down that direction 'cause I had gotten out of the military at one point out of the navy. And, I I was enlisted linguist at the time. And so I had gotten out for seven years from God after a couple of people mentioned I forgot pulling me back saying I needed to go. And share his love and forgiveness like he did for me. With those, I served with and I just didn't want to have anything to do with it and so what I did Kinda Gideon ask I laid a whole bunch of things before thank God these all the reasons why I can't do this I don't even remember what most of them are but over the span of a year, he changed all of them. And at the changing of the last one, which was my wife's heart That that was a huge one. I said okay you can do anything right? Obviously. So I just jumped full in and I applied to seminary last minute and I got a phone call on the day classes were starting at reformed theological seminary that you're in. And I'm like Okay God definitely wants me to do this all the other door started opening like that like just his hand was on things so I'm like okay. All right. This is the way you want me to go. It's almost as if got, that's the best you've got. Out Take Care of these one at a time. Right and not to mention he kept on bringing people in my life that was noting the calling in. The. Calmly so which is very humbling. Encouraging. So. How long have you been a chaplain now? Now I've been chaplain for six years six. Okay. And all of those in New York. UPS Yes in the new. The New York national, guard I met the one. Oh, ninth upstate, which has a the. C Thirties ski as we fly down to Arctic go to Greenland's. Really need that's that's how I got felt by pull me to this united even know the air national guard existed to be honest. Air Force reserves during seminary for chaplain candidacy. And a recruiter caved Air National Guard recruiter came down, it started talking about different missions that they did. And he talked about an article at a just felt like God nudging me that way in the Mike. That's weird. I never thought about going in article. And then I did a little research I found out the the international guard unit that goes. In Artika was twenty minutes away from my house and. So Never. Knew it because most of the time you don't know about the National Guard unless you're it's quiet. So yeah, twenty minutes. Extra up in Albuquerque. and Kurt Kirtland for space has international guard. So Yeah Yeah I knew about it. They do it only because I I was you know I grew up. Close to it. Yeah. Yeah. Does it's it's weird in our area. I never heard about talked about ever. Nobody ever mentioned perishable Garg So. It's it's a really big secret in our area, I. The military's probably bigger at some areas. It's quieter than others. So it upstate New York, it's not spoken about. Interesting So. Here you are. A chaplain. Air National Guard chaplain. and. Your wife is in upstate New York she she's not in the military. Now she she at fourteen years active navy and then went too far like gatos closing at season so. Fourteen years visit a lot of time. Yeah. So yeah. and so she's With your girls in you're in New York City. I have to ask what does that been like? It's been. Intense the first especially the first few weeks to a month. Everybody was going nonstop. Nobrega. And the sensitive. That fear. Anxiety about what was going on the huge. Repertoire of questions about unknowns was just ever-present. And so at the beginning of ministry was really intense and just getting to know everybody in that fielding lots of questions. And there's a lot of spiritual seeking in the first month to was really neat. Let's. At the. Challenging and there's also a lot of grief. because. In New York City. It's e-. It's very real because a lot of people have lost either friend or family member to virus. So for been impacted in some other way by it because sometimes it's not just grown by that's killed people. It's other things that could have been easily prevented if kroner virus wasn't taking over the hospital so. Spend on a fair amount of tragedy death is made for a lot of seeking. So a lot of that's not reported. No Yeah I mean in terms of the Sort of the secondary effects. Yes. Not reported. Yeah. Yeah. You can't. It can't report it. But the fact is that people were scared to go to hospitals especially in the first month month and a half they were scared. Go to anything unless they were absolutely on their deathbed than than even not so because they didn't want to get it back to with US Corona virus even though what they had was. Potentially killing them. Yeah. Talk, about being between a rock and a hard place. Right Yeah What what prepared you? For this. I don't I don't ever feel necessarily prepared. It's like with people ask you what do you say when you're talking to somebody that has lost somebody? You pray a lot. Is What you do as God hopefully got enters the conversation and then You and they are both blessed by his presence and his wisdom in his comfort. At I think that's the same thing with preparation I did not know what to expect at every day. It was something new being thrown at me at on my face. Like I. I need you. I need your wisdom I need your guidance added Where should I go who? Very this way too many people in too many locations possibly go everywhere. So where do you need me? And so that's been a lot of it. I mean sure I've had. Now, few years in the military doom ministry and I think I can see different parts of my past even in my navy history where he's prepared me in different ways. But that that's the preparation is small. The need for him is huge. So it seems like the the skill and the intensity of the need right now is is totally beyond. Anything that you've been directly involved in to this point. Actually, and it seemed like in a in a situation like that like you say that. Well even if you had all kinds of preparation. There, there comes a point where the the scale is so big that. I. Mean. How in the world do do be how can a person be prepared for something like this and so yeah, it would seem like you would have to go in. Knowing. you only have so much to respond to. This great need and it. What you need to respond to that is going to have to come from somewhere beside your preparation. Right absolutely. And it's got to be kind of space of dependency. And that's I think actually a more dangerous thing would. Come into this feeling like I've got this. because you know the the amount of. I think the the humility of going through it with the soldiers and the airmen sailors makes it so that you can connect with A. You know I wasn't somebody that wasn't going through this and was just tell telling them how they could be free from it. I was going through it as well. But able to share my source of hope and light. Yeah. I would imagine at the end of each day you you're just zapped. Especially, the first two weeks Oh yes. Yeah. Is Draining how are you ready for yourself or are you being refilled? Now now I've kind of got a more healthy. On that. One day week rest and I'm at Latte. Just last night I was talking. With to my brother's. back from Church at home. It was really really refreshing. I've been in a texting other brothers and sisters of faith I've been asking for prayer. That span because most of the people that I work with work with here, I don't know. So the only person I really knew before coming down here was the chaplain assistant that I'm working with, and we're like we've only known each other for a little bit a little over a year. So we're still and that's on a temporary or part-time basis because she only worked at the base part time so. We are getting to know each other through this. So. Yeah. had to reach back to. That other brothers and sisters of faith that I had back at home and around the world At. Most importantly. Who God gave me was my wife So I. Mean we talked for hours every day even when I was exhausted. Re Talk for long amounts of time man we pray together. And we'd see him in his will I share the struggles I was having and? Out Not to mention. This goes to the first thing I just said, which was a dependency on hearing from his word like just constantly seeking him in his word because they're also, they were always wanting me to share a word with them in their meetings in our time together. Constantly seeking him for what does that word? What What do you want me to share? What do they need to hear right now that might be source of inspiration. Hope that might. Bring them light so Those are the kind of things that were there but let me tie. It was just draining by felt. I remember. A few wake said microphone assistant was like this it ever get easier. Because this is her I really like she's only been in the career field for three quarters of a year. So she's just coming along for this like, wow this. Is Really Tatsumi has gotten her feet under no. Now, she's learning about it and doing it at the same time. Yeah. So it's all for her. It's all downhill from here. Not. So much value but yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Joshua I am. So glad that you're on the way with Christ and I really am grateful that we got to spend this time together this morning. which I should say by the way that we are talking early in the morning Well, I guess early as relative but Your your day starts. At a different time each day it's if fluctuates depends on what the need is and what's going on and for while you were working until late at night but your your evenings have. You been getting some of your evenings back lately. if I remember, right? Yeah. So we are talking early in the morning because you're about to start your day. So I, am really I'm grateful for you and your walk with the Lord. I am I'm grateful what Christ has done in your life in what crisis done in your wife's life and how that's impacting your family and the world around you. And That you were there. In New York City with everything that God has done in your life I'm grateful that you're there and. We are praying for you. And the others that are serving with you. And asking God to sustain you. Thank you. I have felt this has been very supportive had felt. Support. From so many different sources say I take that? I Think of the. Battle that David in the soldiers had. And there's those guys I got left behind in the logistics, right? Come back home and I love this story or the story about God. At Comeback Home and so the guys that went in the battle they were like we should get all the booty and maybe they should get a token. And it was like. Everyone receives their fair share for ward. They're equal part in the reward, and that's and that's what I feel. It's because we're a any part of this work is God's work. And be that all of us are in this like I'm not in the Oregon. A lot of people are in New York with me, and that's why God's work is begin. God bless you. Thank you thank God bless you. Just, because a person follows Jesus doesn't mean that person is perfect. Following Jesus is a lifetime of growing more him. Likewise while there are followers who are more mature than others who have spent more time growing close to Jesus than other followers. There are no followers of Jesus who are better than others. If. You aren't on the way with Jesus. We invite you to check out the follow Jesus page on the Baptist Standard website at Baptist Standard Dot com forward slash followed Jesus to learn more about becoming a follower of him. Are on the way with Jesus. We, hope that this podcast has encouraged you to grow more like him. The on the way podcast is produced by the Baptist Standard, the donor support provider of news opinion and resources for living like Jesus. To make a donation visit Baptist Standard Dot com forward slash donate. To receive the Baptist Standard weekly newsletter, visit Baptist Dot Com, and click on the subscribe button. I'm Eric Black editor of the Baptist Standard and I'm glad you've been with us today.

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BP This Week: The Baptist Abuse Scandal

The BreakPoint Podcast

30:29 min | 2 years ago

BP This Week: The Baptist Abuse Scandal

"Brought Christianity Christianity is an explanation of all of reality. There's not one square inch human existence as to which Christ who was sovereign over. All does not cry out Ma. Welcome to break point this week. I'm Warren Smith with the Colson center and this week I'm sitting in with many bells who is with world bags Zine Mindy. Welcome to the program. As we always do every week on this program kinda look at the news of the week from a Christian, worldview perspective and the biggest story, or at least one of the biggest stories of the week. At least in my world has been the scandal. That has overtaken the southern Baptist church. A couple of newspapers the Houston chronicle and the San Antonio Express News collaborated on some investigations and published stories that said two hundred twenty southern Baptist leaders in Texas have been convicted of sex crimes over the past twenty years. And of course, these stories come on the heels of a Fort Worth star telegram story a couple of months ago about the independent fundamentalist Baptist church and sex scandals. They're also in Texas. You guys have been covering this story at world. It's far reaching. I think it's taken everyone by surprise me. Three hundred eighty southern Baptist church leaders in volunteers who face sexual misconduct. Allegations, you know, and and more victims than that just a wide ranging investigation as you say with I think deep implications for really the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. I want wanna talk about some of those. I don't want to dwell too much just on the more pre and aspects of this store in Indiana as I'm sure you don't either. Thank you and. Yeah. And I just want to focus a little bit more on on what we can learn from this because you know, I think it's number one important to say that we live in a fallen and broken world. And if we think that any of us, you me anyone listening is is immune or invulnerable to these kinds of actions. They don't really understand the doctrine original sin. Do they? Right. And also that churches are Volna Rable that our churches are vulnerable. I think it's easy to look into sort of pick apart. What happened to Southern Baptists and find things that are different say. Say oh, yeah. That couldn't happen to us. But as you say that, you know, sin cuts through every heart. And so we know that in our churches, we have sinful people, and that means that sin is going to erupt, and hopefully that I think we can take steps to safeguard as we always want to do in society to safeguard against our sinful nature. Well, I know some of the things that we can do Mindy or things that you and I have both written about in world at breakpoint here at the Colson center thinks like transparency and accountability structures of accountability being vulnerable one to another of having some rules in place. I know Mike Pence for example, a couple of months ago got eviscerated by the mainstream media for following. What has come to be called the Billy Graham rule, which is not to ride alone in a car with a woman or have lunch alone with a woman, but those are the kinds of rules that are churches need, it seems to me would you agree or not kind of now, I when we when we started hearing about the metoo movement and started looking at these incredible scandals that erupted in that entertainment industry last year. You know, there's a lot of discussion. And I have to say as a woman in the workplace that it seems to me that a rigid Billy Graham rule that doesn't allow a for instance, a supervisor to sit with his employees. Because she is a woman that seems discriminatory to me. And I think that their ways around it. You know, I think that glass doors are a great way around it and the kinds of office spaces that lend themselves to transparency Amine closed door session is, you know, as as a term with a literal, meaning and sometimes a closed door session is not a good idea. I think that in our churches, very often because of the nature of things that church leaders are dealing with they've become isolated and we have to work against that. We have to find ways to support our church leaders. But also to you know, bring in the kind of accountability that you're talking about. I've been really impressed with what some of the southern Baptist leaders have been saying since this investigation came out, but even going back people like almo- or people like Russell Moore who have stressed the importance of bringing in local authorities of going quickly to the police. With allegations of sexual assault. That's something that churches have failed to do. Sometimes they've tried to handle it themselves when it is a crime that they're talking about. And then also the building accountability structures to work against this kind of thing. Yeah. You know, you made a good point there. Russell more the head of the ethics and religious liberty commission of the southern Baptist convention issued. A very strong statement published in the Dallas Morning News, saying all rape and sexual exploitation is unjust and evil. Sexual abuses is not only sin, but also crime, which is the point that you're making JD Greer who is the president of the current president of the southern Baptist convention also issued strong statements so yeah, good for them for issuing these statements. But now the proof of the pudding will be in what kind of changes get made. You know, maybe we could talk about this all day. And as I said, I didn't want to do too much on the store, but I know world has written a major story on this topic. You can find that store by going to world MAG dot com, and we'll link to that in the show notes and also here at the closest. Center we've written about it at break point too. So you can find that story by going to breakpoint dot org. Not only the the current southern Baptist church sexy Endo, but the one of a few months ago from the independent fundamentalist Baptist church association of churches will link to both of those stories in our show notes. So Mindy to change the subject and to maybe move onto a little bit of a lighter note a couple of weeks ago was the Super Bowl they are. You know, the the game is one thing. But it's the ads during the game which are all lately in recent years of me getting almost as much attention as the game itself. And in some ways has become a barometer of what's going on a culture. And I don't know if you saw the ad when everybody plays we all win. It was a long at it was a two minute ad from Microsoft. Did you happen to see that ad he now, I didn't I I wanna plead work travel. I was actually in the Middle East when the Super Bowl happened. But I've been reading about it because. As you say, these are cultural barometers, well, yeah. And we're gonna get to your travel in the Middle East in just a minute. But before we get to that though. Let's talk quickly about that ad is called said when everybody plays we all win in. It's a story about adaptive technology, featuring kids who in some ways, we're not able to use a computer in a keyboard in the standard way. And that they were given a by Microsoft to these or these adaptive technologies that would allow them to play video games and do other things on their computers, and it was really powerful on a lot of positive attention during the Super Bowl more than thirty million views on YouTube since then one of the kids at the end of the ad says, no matter how your body is. Or how fast you are you can play. And that's a great thing to have in this world the ability just to play, but one of the things from a worldview perspective Mindy that I appreciate it. So much was just. That you know, it said that all life matters all life has dignity regardless of abilities disabilities or circumstances. And that's a message. You don't always see or hear in the mainstream media these days, right? And I think for all of us looking at dignity and looking at life issues beyond the tug of war that we have over abortion looking at children who are disadvantaged when it comes to using technology who would have thought, but really important issue for kids growing up in this agent time, and and so to just focus on that for a minute. As you say is is is great for all of us. No matter where we're coming from in our world perspective. You're listening to breakpoint this week. I'm Warren Smith on this week with many bells with world magazine. And we'll be back to talk about her trip to the Middle East, and what she saw and learned there and other matters of interest in this week's news in just a moment. We invite you to visit breakpoint dot org while you're at our website. Be sure to browse are online Colson center store of great books and other resources, and you can link up to our social media sites like Facebook and Twitter. Welcome back. You're listening to break point this week. I'm Warren Smith, and I'm sitting in this week with Mindy bells with world magazine, you know, Mindy in the last segment we were talking about the Super Bowl ad that you were not able to see because during the Super Bowl you were in the Middle East, and I want to pivot in our conversations to talk about that. I learned a lot about your travels from your column globe trot-, which is comes out. I think every Monday Wednesday and Friday on the world website. I find that column to be very nourishing very quick way to get caught up on what's going on around the world. And I want to focus first on Syria, a group of Syrian religious leaders, including many Christians recently sent a letter to President Donald Trump. It was the letters from a coalition of Christians Arabs and Kurds that control the northern part of Syria. And they said that the American withdrawal from Syria was going to seriously undercut. Efforts to install a democratic government in the region. Can you say more about Christians in that part of the world about this letter in about American policy there, right? There's kind of an unnoted rising. I would say power in Syria a series of very complex and confusing war in a confusing place right now. And I went simply to get a better feel for what the the actual geography, but the political geography and the physical geography is I was not far away from a battle that we're hearing a lot about right now in the Deir ez-zor area that people are billing as the last battle with ISIS. I'm not sure that's actually going to turn out to be the case. But all of this area is what this group that you're describing is calling a self administration zone, and basically the Assad government as it has retaken about fifty percent of Syria with the help keep in mind of Russia and Iran. They have essentially left. This northeastern tier of Syria to the self administration zone. That is run by something called the Syriac military council. The Syriac democratic council or front you'll hear it called different things. And it's an amazing group of ancient church leaders like leaders from the Assyrian churches, a Syriac churches there and the Kurds that live there and Arabs that live there. And so you have groups that have lived in tension with each other for a long time on Linnea. I would say that are now have formed both political and military coalition. They control this territory, they have checkpoints, they have you know, I had to have permission from some of them to get into certain areas. What is important to me is that this area contains the oldest churches in the world. And it is an area that is under siege right now. And if we. Look at Turkey to the north and the Assad regime backed by Iran, potentially backed by Russia to the south pushing on this regime pushing on the self administration zone. Something has to happen to the Christians there and without outside protection. It's hard to see how they are going to withstand those pressures, hence the letter that you refer to and the plea. I would say to the president that he not withdraw troops from that region. And not take his eye off the ball. Well, and for us here in the United States, Mindy, both as Christians and as citizens of a couple of key points. I'd want to emphasize, and I get these from you. I'll get these from your globe trot- there about one hundred thousand Christians in that area about twenty thousand Muslims that have converted to Christianity among that number. So we're really talking about the wellbeing of our Christian brothers and sisters in that. Charlie. That's right. And I think what's important that really ought to fuel. Both our perspective on this and political decisions and our prayers is that something's happening here that you're not seeing in Syria, largely speaking. And that is that the church is growing if you look at Damascus and Aleppo, the the places where we think of the population centers for Christians, and we're the big cathedrals in the old churches are those churches have lost anywhere from forty to sixty percent of their population through these long years of war in the north, partly because we know this is how the gospel works that as people have been displaced as they have been forced out by militant group says they have suffered their family members have died. They've lost their homes. They're coming to Christ. They honestly are looking at as Lomb and saying Islam has been nothing but trouble for us and they're looking to Christ. And we. I've seen twenty thousand Muslims in cities like Kabbani Comey's -ly and a few others that are are coming to Christ. In large numbers. There's a church an evangelical church and Kobani which was if you remember a few years ago incredible siege between the Kurds ISIS groups, and with US support, you the United States was very involved in that battle. And now, there's even Jellicoe church there of mostly former Kurdish Muslims, it's really remarkable. Well mindy. Syria is an area that you know. Well, you've been there, and you also write in globe. Trot- they'll about other areas of the world, and you focus a lot on religious liberty. We've talked in weeks past about us, the Abebe in Pakistan, and I'm just wondering if you have an update about her status. We know that that the supreme court of Pakistan said that she could go free, but she didn't go free. And then more recently just a few weeks ago, the Pakistan supreme court upheld its earlier decision that she could go free, but she still in Pakistan, some people say that she's endanger that she's being prohibited from leaving Pakistan is that true. According to our source says that's not true. This has been a remarkable case. I mean, you know from day one she was even put in prison for what looked to be obviously false charges that it took nine ten years for the the case to reach the supreme court. The supreme court has done a dramatic thing. In ruling the way. At did in overturning the blasphemy conviction that lower courts had rendered in the case. Then again reviewing that decision, and affirming it which it did on January twenty ninth. And so we have an unprecedented. I would say very tense situation where you've got a legal establishment, and you've got the mob in the street that really supported blasphemy conviction. The government seems to be trying to threat its way through these tensions trying to uphold what the supreme court has done which I think could have tremendous and positive ramifications for Pakistan moving forward and also trying to protect her life. What we've been told and the source that we have is is Sean Taseer, and he's someone who's been very close to this case. His father was the governor of Punjab, and he was assassinated believe in twenty eleven four his support for us. Habibie? So you see how the this case has deep roots and wide ranging implications. He says that these are false reports that she's been moved that she's in Karachi that she is not safe or that she's been barred from leaving the country. Would he told us is that she is neither in solitary confinement? But she is in a comfortable place, a spacious location as being well looked after he said that she's not being prevented from leaving the country, but they are being very careful in watching the security situation because she cannot leave like an ordinary person. And so, you know, presumably at some point she will be allowed to leave and reunite with her family. We may not know right away. And that's that's like killer. News to journalist like you or me. And yet we're trying to watch and trying to see how this plays out. You don't Mindy another stories that I wanted to briefly touch on again related to international religious liberty is the situation in India. You know, I've been to India a couple of times, and as you know, Mendi when you travel to a country you then start to develop an interest in that country. Even when you're not there you start reading my be a little more than you would have about it. And whenever they whenever news item flashes by on television or the radio you pay a little bit more attention. And because of that I would have said to you that India is a developing country that it's one of the fastest growing economies on the planet. It's got a billion people. It's got the rule of law. It's you know, maybe not perfect in all cases. But it was at least developing there. And yet we're seeing some recent developments in India that are very troubling that sort of refute the narrative that I just articulated there and number to show us just how fragile in tenuous religious. Liberty is in many parts of the. World. Right. And I think we want to emphasize to that one of the reasons that we focus on religious liberties, not simply because we want to protect Christians. Although that's important. But because it is the first freedom, and because we see how all other freedoms crumble when religious liberty isn't prized. And I think that's what we're seeing in India. One of the things polling on democracy on economic and social growth, there has always been the caste system, and the the Hindu nationalist party that came to power under Narendra Modi has really kind of energized the caste system and really emphasizing economic ethnic and religious differences. And one of the results is that we're seeing unprecedented levels of persecution, not only against Christians, but also against Muslims, and I would say that some of the recent attacks, you know, world watch monitor issued a report that was. Truly alarming because they say that the situation is at a tipping point. I think we should take that seriously. And and really some of the most violent attacks have been against Muslims who are facing discrimination across the board. But also, of course, affecting Christians. And so that's a situation that we have to continue to watch it affects thousands upon thousands of people when we're talking about a place like India. You're listening to Mindy bells. I'm Warren Smith this break point this week. And after break a few final thoughts from Mindy and myself on the news of the week. You can learn more about breakpoint the Colson center for Christian worldview when you visit breakpoint dot org. That's breakpoint dot ORG. Welcome back to break point this week. I'm Warren Smith of the Colson center for Christian worldview and this week. My guest is Mindy bells with world magazine. I in the last segment Mindy, we talked a lot about religious, liberty international. Religiously re because that's a an area of concern of interest for you. You're the you cover international affairs for world and have been doing so for years and not mentioned already once your globe trot- column which comes out Monday Wednesday and Friday on the world website. If anyone wants to subscribe to that and get it in your inbox three times a week as I do and look for and welcome. You can go to the world magazine website, which is world MAG dot com or world news group, W N, G dot org and subscribe to it there. You know Mindy? One of the store you cover stories beyond religious liberty issues, you you cover life in marriage and all kinds of other international issues. I was taken. In by a story from globe trot- about the place in Canada, relative to the life issue because we of course, at the Colson center carry great deal about life, marriage and religious liberty. This is a story that I guess in some ways could be an object lesson for us. It kinda goes to show what can happen in a country when a culture of life is overtaken by a culture of death, Canada, which of course, has physician assisted suicide laws in that country. And as a result of that has physician assisted suicide, but there is a process that you have to go through and one man tried to get doctors to kill his wife. They didn't they wouldn't. And so he took matters into his own hands. That's right. Michelle Trudeau is a fifty seven year old man who has admitted during the course of this trial to suffocating his six year old wife. She was in the late stages of Alzheimer's, and he has defense. Senses. That she said she didn't want to. She had watched her mother die of Alzheimer's, and she didn't want to suffer in the same way. But you know, the medical stablishment there if we wanna if we wanna give Canada their euthanasia law medical stablishment had ruled that this case did not qualify, and he went ahead and killed her. Anyway, I think what's interesting is this trial is unfolding as how the defense is making their case, and his lawyers have said that, you know, the medical stablishment, basically was denying Cadeau his freedom of choice, and that's language that we know has been problematic in this country. It's used to cover a multitude of injustices, and and murder, we would say, and so here we see it being used at the other end of life in the youth Asia debate. I wanna add worn I think this is a really important issue for us to be watching the United States several states in our country have basically right to die right to kill laws. This. This is something that where Europe and Canada are way ahead of us. Or we could argue way behind us in how they practice these laws. There's a major case that's going to be coming before the European Court of human rights this year on Belgium's euthanasia law, which has been used to kill thousands of people, and is now being used to being justified in cases of of depression and just thinks that we consider common mental ailments are now being used as justification for euthanasia. So it's it's the proverbial foot in the door. And we really want to watch. And what the implications are for us here in the United States. Reminds me of a story that we at the Colson center have been following from the Netherlands some data came out recently in the guardian that said that the number of Dutch people being euthanized rose from under two thousand less than two thousand people in two thousand and seven to sixty six hundred people in two thousand seventeen a decade later, and that close to a third of all people who die in the Netherlands are being induced in some way, and that's not all physician assisted suicide, but that death is being induced in some way. And of course, the Netherlands is a small country. So when you talk about thirty two thousand people dying in a year from induced methods and some of those methods might be dying of dehydration while they were unconscious. In other words, they were having having nourishment withheld from them that's a pretty amazing number and to my way of thinking tragic number, and I think it reinforces what you said a few moments ago, which is that if we don't. Have to guess what? The impact of of these laws will be here in the United States. All we have to do is to look to Europe. And we can see what the impact of these laws are well, and I think, you know, when these laws were first being pushed in Europe in particular, you know, the whole justification was that they were going to clean up death, which we all know as a messy in gruesome process and not the way God intended for our lives to go. But, but but this was the thing that was going to be clinical. Now, it was going to be on our timetable, and it was going to be in these pristine settings where people wouldn't suffer. What we're actually seeing as we drill down into this explosion of such deaths in places, like the Netherlands Belgium, is it it's pretty gruesome, and it is pretty ugly. Because what happens is when there's family tension. A child may want to push a move forward with euthanizing parent or when there's spousal tensions. I mean, we saw that in the candidate case if you. If you look at what's being said in the courtroom, there's some obvious tension there between the husband and the wife, and and so we're turning those things into. I mean, the the law is being manipulated by these kinds of things, and I think it shows what a problematic area of law. It is you don't make it. We've only got a few minutes left. And I guess we really have to talk about the border wall situation at one of the big news stories of the week a spending Bill was finally passed that would avert a government shutdown, but simultaneous to the law being passed with the spending Bill which did not have the money that President Trump wanted for border security, he declared an emergency in order to get more funding, and he was going to get that funding from variety of sources ABC news is reporting that one point three seven five billion would come from the spending Bill that was passed on Thursday. Six hundred million would come from the Treasury Department's drug forfeiture fund to point. Five billion from the Pentagon's drug interdiction program and about three and a half billion dollars from the Pentagon's military construction budget. In other words, the president appears to at least have discovered a process for finding the money. Now, of course, everyone is saying that not so fast that this stuff is that that these actions are going to be tied up in courts for days weeks, months, maybe even years to come. But Mindy, I'm I'm curious from your perspective as Christians is there. You know, I hate to put it this way. But I'm going to a world view angle here. What s Christians should we be paying attention to in this fight over a border wall and border security. Yeah. I have a hard time with that one Warren. I keep looking trying to look at the numbers trying to look at what's actually happening trying to look beyond the hype that we're seeing on both sides. I mean, clearly what we're seeing here's a political battle that the Democrats if they can make the Republicans and make the president in particular, look like he's overreaching, look like he is being draconian like he's being dictatorial in this situation. That's going to help them in twenty twenty. And so we have to recognize it. That's what we're watching here. And we have a president who is determined to fulfill a campaign promise, I fear though, that the wall has become far too symbolic for all of us. Because when we when we look at reports when we talk to people with the most experience in this area, what they all are saying is that we need a combination of security measures at the border, and I can tell you from traveling in the Middle East where you know, Israel. All saw a dramatic reduction in the terrorist attacks that were daily plaguing Jerusalem and Tel Aviv when they put in a security wall. But if you look at that wall, it takes different shapes through different parts of the country. And it is a wall that is backed by an incredible surveillance and technology apparatus. And so they have recognized that that there are a multitude of things that contribute to actual border security. I fear that's being lost in this debate. Because President Trump is so committed to a wall period. And because the other side is so committed to making him look foolish for being committed to that. What we need is this combination of technology and structure to enhance our border security. Well, many with Al we're going to have to leave it for this week. I let me just say enclosing how grateful I am to you for your work traveling all over the world to bring that stories of international relief. Liberty stories of interest to Christians from all over the world and two world magazine. The Colson center has had a close relationship with why used to work with you guys at world. So and John Stonestreet is with you every Friday on your podcast the world and everything in it. Which is must listen to audio for me every time if at the call center, we couldn't do without you. Well, we really appreciate that as well. Many bells with world magazine, I'm Warren Smith with the Colson center for Christian worldview, you've been listening to breakpoint this week. We'll have links to some of the stories and resources that we've mentioned in the program in the show notes till next time have a great week.

Mindy bells Colson center Warren Smith United States Syria president world magazine Middle East President Donald Trump southern Baptist church Pakistan India Canada supreme court Christ Southern Baptists Texas Indiana
BP This Week: Addressing Abuse

The BreakPoint Podcast

25:54 min | 1 year ago

BP This Week: Addressing Abuse

"Ideas have consequences and bad. Ideas have victims, those are some of the principles that guide us here at the Colson center for Christian worldview. And then we talk about each week on break with this week. L O everyone, I'm Warren Smith. And this week. John Stonestreet is out gallivanting the world speaking to various groups. So I have Shane Morris saw one of our writers here at the Colson center with me this week, sitting in for John chain. Welcome to the program. Thanks, warren. I've got three kids, who loved nothing more than putting on my shoes and tromping around the house in them, even though they're much too big. So that's kind of how I feel every time I fill in for John. Well, that's right. Nobody can really fill in for John or fill his shoes. But we're delighted to have you on with us this weekend. You'll there's a lot of news stories. So let's just jump straight into them, a couple of major religious bodies. The leadership of those bodies have met in the past week one the southern Baptist and the Catholic bishops as well. Let's start with the southern Baptist southern Baptist leaders. They call the messengers. I gathered in Birmingham, Alabama for the denominations annual meeting and race. And. Sexual abuse were two issues that were near the top of their list, the southern Baptist convention actually formed the sexual abuse advisory group, back last year in July, so almost a year ago, and the group issued a report on Saturday that report included first person accounts from survivors, which I think, is, first of all very important, actually, get to know the extent, and qualitative sense of this sexual abuse. It's taking place within the southern Baptist convention, but it also knowledged the failures in how the southern Baptist church has responded to this abuse. Well in one of the reasons Shane is, I think, you know, that southern Baptist are taking this so seriously. Now, first of all, I think there's a matter of conviction. I think that, that many in the leadership of the southern Baptist convention are rightfully sorrowful about some of the history of the southern Baptist church and that this is in some ways, you know, a move of the Holy Spirit in their lives. And in that denomination, but I don't think we should overlook the reality of the fact that the Houston chronicle and the San Antonio Express News too, large. Texas newspapers published reports on sexual abuse allegations, within the southern Baptist convention seven hundred victims three hundred eighty southern Baptist leaders were identified. In those news reports. And I think that, that created something of a day of reckoning within the southern Baptist convention real- it really has Warren, not just in southern Baptist, but among evangelicals, as a whole this is no longer a Catholic issue to put it quite simply several abuse scandals have hit Protestant churches in the last few years. And this is easily the biggest we're looking at hundreds of victims here. Like you said, hundreds of accusations against what is America's largest, Evan Djelic denomination. This is a bit of a different situation than the Catholic case because Baptists have a different policy. It's congregational not a Piscopo alien not monarchical. So all the churches involved here are at least in name, autonomous and the southern Baptist convention has to grapple with this knowing that they've got their own unique set of challenges in enforcing whatever they decide. To do on member churches. Well, let's ride. But I think that some of the steps that they have taken this week, they voted overwhelmingly, for example, to approve, constitutional amendments that directly address the abuse situation and also directly address racism, as well, and I will say, Shane you and I because of our roles here at the Colson center. We have the privilege of knowing some of these senior leaders within the southern Baptist church. We've worked with Russell more here at the Colson center, for example, I had JD Greer on the breakpoint podcast, a few months ago, JD you're, of course, is the president of the southern Baptist convention, and I believe this your men of integrity. I believe that these are men who are deeply legitimately concerned about solving this problem. And I think that that's important you have to have the will to solve the problem before you're going to take the hard steps necessary to actually solve the problem. And I think at least in the part of many in the leadership, the will is now finally there, you're right, Warren, there is the will hear that I think we do need to acknowledge upfront. We also need to differentiate. Between different kinds of sins here. First of all, there's the sin of the actual perpetrators which is horrific and, you know, in its own unique way. And then there's the sin of those who have other covered up or failed to properly address issues of abuse in individual southern Baptist churches or protected themselves legally in lieu of prioritizing victims. And so those are all issues that need to be tackled. And I think this committee has begun the process in an admirable way. But at the same time the something we need to consider, and that's that the aroma of a gospel, has really turned to a stench in the world's nostrils in light of this sort of thing. I don't wanna be in one of those who simply applauds the measures taken by leaders and fails to acknowledge the severity of what's happened here. We're talking about hundreds of victims. We're told by Christ at the world is going to hate us, but we're also told not to give them a legitimate reason for hating us now we're seeing lengthy articles in the country's top secular newspapers that are detailing this abuse and much the same as occurred with the cat. Catholic church of scandal, the New York Times, for instance, had a long profile of one of the highest profile cases in the southern Baptist mega church in Texas, where there was a clear element of shaming Christians. Obviously, the media has an interest in doing that, which, you know, based on this trend of abuse. That's not I don't think it's entirely illegitimate. The churches really dragged the name of Christ through the mud here and the New York Times is just sort of covering the aftermath. That's why this is so important to address. Well, I think that's right in as you've already mentioned, Shane the southern Baptist of the largest evangelical denomination in the country. So, you know, it really does impact all of us who are considered ourselves evangelical or have come out of that heritage. So think for those of us who care about these matters. We should pray for if those of our listeners who might actually be southern Baptist. They should work to make sure that their local churches. And their leaders are taking appropriate steps to make sure that these horrible sexual abuse sins and crimes do not happen again. Shane I'd like to pivot in our conversation, just a little bit and talk about the Catholics, because the Catholic Bishop. It's also met this week, the American Catholic bishops met in Baltimore, Maryland. And they also are having to deal with the sexual abuse scandal in their church in, and they're dealing with it in the aftermath of an international event that took place in February a four day sex abuse summit that the Vatican called back in February. And at that event back in February, a lot of victims advocates are saying that the Vatican's responsible just completely inadequate so that really is shining. A bright light on this American bishops meeting. And this is something of a long term, existential crisis from Aircon Catholicism in Catholicism worldwide. It's really hard to overstate the severity of this, you know, the way to this evil, what the views that we've seen within the church over the course of decades from the Boston sex abuse scandal to the Pennsylvania grand jury report has really put a stain on not just any of Catholicism, but Christianity, as a whole, I'm not Catholic. I'm Presbyterian, but Protestants said, even jealou- calls have really suck. Suffered an ongoing image problem for a couple of decades now because of these repeated and massive sex-abuse revelations not obviously, now it really has touched the Protestant house, but it's uncanny. How quickly someone you talked to about Christianity, and I've experienced this over and over again, will run for church, sex abuse scandals as proof that this religion really isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's devastating on so many levels. Well, it is. And of course, the Catholic, I'm meeting is even more complicated. Because the man sharing this convention of American bishops cardinal Daniel DiNardo. He's the head of the archdiocese of Galveston Houston down in Texas. And it's also been said that he's one of these leaders who is not done enough to stop a priest who was in his diocese, who had been accused of sexual abuse. So this problem is just pervasive. There's a victim advocates network called snap survivors network of those abused by priests. And they've got a very specific set. Of reforms that they're trying to get pushed through, so we'll just have to wait and see what happens there. I think again, as Christians, we should hope and pray that these issues get resolved. But not resolved in a negative way not pushed under the rug. But that there is a full reckoning that there's transparency in that there are Indy great reforms in the church. They should be the prayer Mishal law Moore and Smith. And I'm gonna Shane Morris. You're listening to break point this week. We'll be back after this short break. We invite you to visit breakpoint dot org while you're at our website, be sure to browse are online Colson center store of great books, and other resources. And you can link up to our social media sites. Like Facebook and Twitter. Welcome back to breakpoint this week. I'm Warren Smith. Shane Morris a sitting in for John Stonestreet. Angry to have you on the program. And as I said, at the top of the show, you know, there's a lot of news this week. One of those news items comes from Maine, and it's one of a number of abortion, sorta life euthanasia type issues that we're dealing with in this country in an end this week made legalizes assisted suicide made became the eighth state in the nation to legalize assisted suicide on Wednesday when governor Janet mill signed a law allowing doctors to prescribe fatal doses of medication to the terminally ill. I'm sure Shane you have a few thoughts about that. Yeah. Mills had previously said that she was unsure about the Bill because it declares the practice of euthanasia and assisted suicide does not constitute suicide under state law. And she also had said that we're actually issued an executive order for the state. To analyze how the law would impact the state. This is now going to become one of those major life issues in our time. I think it's complicated and difficult to talk about often, I think away that abortion is not because except, in cases of the, you know, mentally incapacitated patients who are being actually euthanized at a doctor or families decision. There's no instance here, where the person dying isn't part of the decision process. This is predominantly people who have requested to die. So talking about this from a Christian perspective isn't going to be a straightforward, and a lot of cases, as maybe the abortion issue would be. And I think our listeners would be rightly a little bit more hesitant to talk about this. Well that may be shamed. But I do think that a whole life ethic a life in an epic in which we as Christian stand for live, at least in terms of all the bills that I've seen that have been passed, as I mentioned, when we started talking about this news item that eight states have passed assisted suicide law. And eighteen states have considered similar measures just within the past year. I don't have any problem saying that we as Christians, the stand on the side of life on these issues, and that we should resist. I haven't seen a single one of these assisted suicide bills that I think squares the circle if I might say it that way that is nuanced or subtle enough so that Christians could in good conscience with the bible, and the ethic of life as our standard support them. I agree with you completely. We're on one important point to make here by way of answering assisted suicide laws and the logic behind them, I think, is that they're always pushed in the name of relieving extreme suffering. So you see arguments made based on the exception that there's a person with terminal cancer, who's an extreme suffering who wants to end their life. The problem is, as I actually helped write a breakpoint commentary on this recently, actually we had just aired this commentary. We covered the case of a seventeen year old Dutch girl who actually decided to kill her. Herself, because she was raped as a child and initially it was reported that this young lady had received legal assisted suicide. But it actually turned out that, that was false. And she had probably starved herself with the help of her parents in many ways that made the story even more disturbing. And they'll tell you how John explained on break point that there's a growing body of evidence from multiple countries. Now not just in North America that legalizing medically assisted suicide actually results in an increase in non assisted suicides. So what we might call those back. Alley suicides for lack of a better term, there was actually a Dutch joint study that concluded that this is a quote now making suicide a legal possibility is a political decision with potential implications for society's credibility and resolve to protect life and prevent premature deaths. So in other words, when you legalize assisted suicide, what you're doing is sending a message to those who are mentally or physically suffering that their life, made just not be worth living. Yeah. Well, you know, I think the norm. Jose tion of that idea is very, definitely a part of the agenda here. Shane, let me pivot again in our conversation in against staying with the life issue, but talk about fetal research. This is something that happened actually last week, not this past week did the week most recently gone by the Trump administration said we could go that it would end medical research by government scientists using fetal tissue for elective abortions. This was hailed by many pro-life organizations as I think it Riley should have been the department of health and human services. They teach said that research that was done at government laboratories, that is called intramural research was going to end. It did not in government research that was funded or government funded research that took place at outside laboratories. That's called extramural research that research can continue. But whenever that researching grant ends for a particular project, and it comes up for a vote or. Comes up for renewal I should say it's going to get some additional scrutiny. So it's not clear. In other words, exactly how much research has been ended. But some has and all research is going to face additional scrutiny, and I think most pro-lifers would say that. That's a good move. You know, I think we probably have more restrictions in place, on science done with animals than we do on science done using the body parts of murdered babies. This is obviously a good thing. It's an easy move for Republicans to make while they're in control. This is praiseworthy. If you recall, you know, those undercover videos done by David dalit in a few years ago, they were dealing with precisely this issue, the supply side of the market, that's being addressed here, the market for unborn human baby parts, this is dresses that issue in part on the demand side, we shouldn't want our government paying for this stuff and creating a demand for it. You know. But at the same time I do have a caveat. The fact is the Republican party has a mixed record on this. For the last few years, they've continued to write Planned Parenthood checks that over the last three years of total about one point three billion, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is the sort of thing that shouldn't be continuing. And it's not what pro-life voters elected them to do. So number one, I'm happy with this move to restrict using fetal tissue in research. It's not just irreverent toward human remains, it swells the demand for abortion and the incentive for abortion, mills to keep on dismembering babies often in the cruelest waste possible. But there's always a but with these issues and those we put in power could be doing a lot more. I think and speaking about incentives if pro-life Oaters, except token measures to restrict or defunding abortion, as good enough than politicians. They're just gonna keep on passing those token measures and not actually cracking down on the majority of federal funding for abortion. Well, I think that's a great point. Shane because it's not at all clear to me that this is not merely a token measure. In fact, I was on a conference call with the White House. Whenever they may disenchantment and they were not able to say to me, how many dollars were actually going to be shut down because of this new policy. There are only about two hundred of these research, extramural research projects that are going to face scrutiny, and many of them are on five year funding cycles, and that means that there might only be a few of them coming up for renewal this year in that would mean that all the rest of them are going to continue unabated until they do come up for some sort of a renewal, where you're listening to break point this week. I'm Warren, Smith, sitting in for John street this week is Shane Morris, and we'll have a few final thoughts about the news of the week from a Christian worldview perspective, when we return you can learn more about breakpoint the Colson center for Christian worldview, when you visit breakpoint dot org. That's breakpoint dot ORG. Welcome back to break this week. Warren Smith with Shane Morrison chain, just to continue the pro-life theme for one more story abortion facility in Missouri is going to remain open. There were a lot of us who thought that maybe it would be shut down Missouri's only abortion clinic will remain open now after a judge has blocked state officials from closing in because of an ongoing licensing dispute. This has been in the news for several weeks. I know John and I talked about this a few weeks ago that we were waiting on this judge's decision. But so far, the judge has said that this last remaining abortion facility, I hesitate to call them clinics because that communicates that there's some positive healthcare happening there in an I'm reluctant to acknowledge that, but this abortion facility will stay open in Missouri. Least for the time being right. The reason this is an issue Warren is because there are a number of states, where abortion is basically restricted down by dent of pure. Manned to one or two clinics. I believe that there isn't a clinic open and pretty much every state at this point, but that may be changing the future. It's cl-. They're clustered predominantly in urban areas predominantly in areas with a lot of minority population. So this is very important because it goes to the heart of weather those in particular states, actually have what the left calls access to abortion. There's immense symbolic value in the closing of the last remaining abortion clinic in particular state whether certainly is, and apparently the way the situation is down that Missouri Clini, is that the judge has until June twenty first to issue its final ruling. So by the time a we're having this conversation again next week, we may know the answer to that. But at least for now, the last remaining abortion facility in Missouri remains open shaded the last few minutes that we have left here on the program. I want to bend our conversation a bit towards the media and pop. Culture and talk about a couple of movie slash miniseries that I think were interesting and teach some worldview lessons, and I want to start with a turnover HBO mini series called Chernobyl is getting a lot of publicity these days from the mainstream media, because it is a very powerful. Some people call it a chilling depiction of the churn, oble, disaster, which, of course, is when a nuclear reactor exploded in one thousand nine hundred eighty six killed immediately about thirty to forty people, but because of the long term effects of radiation, as many as ten thousand people, some people are saying, ultimately died there. And you know I've seen the miniseries Shane it is compelling. It is really a remarkable piece of filmmaking. But the thing that was most interesting to me about it was what it said about socialism in what it said about the bureaucracy of the Soviet Union. I mean, it really made a very powerful worldview statement, a just about the. Corruption of the Soviet system. So I haven't seen Chernobyl yet I would like to, and I plan to actually, but the socialism point is an interesting one and one that several commentators have made over recent years, especially after the Fukushima disaster. In the wake of the earthquake in Japan in two thousand eleven what one observation that came out of that, that I found very interesting was how the Japanese infrastructure and the people in general responded in a very different way the government in particular responded in a very different way from the disaster. And by some estimations the Fukushima reactor leak was actually worse structurally than that your noble incident and yet, the Japanese were able to contain it in a quick fashion. And as I understand it, there, aren't any deaths directly linked as of yet to the Fukushima, correct me if I'm wrong could be wrong on that. But it's nothing like the extent of the disaster internal, which, again, as you said, is still going on and still an active. Sort of hazard that even tourists have to take into account when they visit the area. Well, that's right. It's a complete disaster area, hundreds of thousands of acres are essentially off limits to human habitation. They are beginning to let as you said, some tourist come. In fact, one of the unintended consequences of this turnover mini series is that there's been an increase in tourism to the region that was affected by that. You're noble disaster. The area all around. It has become essentially a wilderness area in the wake of the disaster. So you know, it's not often that we get to recommend something on HBO. It's a hard are rated network that I would not typically recommend to our listeners. But if you do get a chance to look at Chernobyl just from the worldview aspects of it alone. I do think that it's worth viewing. And I think it's especially timely, by the way, because we're having this conversation in American politics about socialism, and you've got candidates like Bernie. Sanders and Alexandra Cossio Cortez talking about socialism in a positive way, we don't have to guess what the impact of socialism would be. We can just watch this miniseries. It Shane I wanna pivot and talk about one more movie before we end. And that's the movie Emmanuel, which is going to be showing on two nights next week, June seventeen in June nineteen. And you and I've had the privilege of seeing that movie because the director Brian Ivy was a speaker at our Wilberforce weekend. Yeah. We have were in. I was deeply moved by this film. It covers the aftermath of the two thousand fifteen shooting by white supremacists. Dylann roof of Emmanuel African Methodist episcopal church in Charleston, South Carolina. There was one of the most shocking mass murderers in American history. But the focus was not on the shooter. The focus was on how the survivors the families and friends of those who were killed responded, specifically to the shooter in. Court. Like you said, I saw it at the Wilberforce weekend during the screening that Brian Ivy, put on there and all I can say about it. Is that what I witnessed back when the event took place and recounted in the film was nothing less than supernatural forgiveness. The world does not understand forgiveness like the members of Emmanuel AME offered to the shooter in court. Well, I think that's exactly right. In, in fact, till one of the people who offered that forgiveness to Dylann roof, Nadine Collier is quoted in the movie, and she says, I will never be able to hold my mother again. It was actually her mother that was killed. You hurt me, you hurt a lot of people. She said speaking to Dylann roof, but God, forgives, you and I forgive you, and I gotta tell you, there was testimony after testimony like that in this movie Brian did a masterful job of putting this movie together, we were, as I said honored to have him speak at our Wilberforce weekend. We recorded that presentation of. Ryan it is on our podcast this week. And so I strongly recommend anyone listening to us right now to go back to breakpoint dot org. And look for Brian's presentation on the podcast. We also did a break point this week that just talks a little bit more about the movie strongly encourage everyone to go see this movie. It's going to be a two night only of event fathom oven as they call them on June seventeen and nineteen those dates were chosen very carefully because June seventeen was the anniversary of the shooting June nineteen was the anniversary of the hearing, the arraignment hearing in which these victims, family members of Dylan Reuss victims on spoke so powerfully in forgiveness of Dylan Rousseau, I really strongly recommend that a movie to you. Check out breakpoint dot org in order to find out more here, Brian see the commentary, so chain a thank you so much for being on the program, this way, filling in for Johnstone. Will be glad to have John back next week, but you filled in admirably, and we are so grateful for the ongoing work that you do at the cultural center, the columns that you right for us. And for the contributions that you make to Johnson breakpoint commentaries every week or, and thanks. It's always a pleasure, breakpoint. This week comes from the Colson center. Breakpoint dot org is where you can go to find out more about us, I would also like to remind everyone that we are approaching the fiscal year end of the Colson center in, if you value, the kind of thoughtful commentary that you get from the Colson center through our daily breakpoint emails through our daily breakpoint broadcasts and through breakpoint this week, we would invite you to consider making a financial contribution to the Colson center again, you can go to breakpoint dot org and click on the give tab at the top of the page. And whether you choose to give or not please know that we value your prayers. They do make a difference, and we would be grateful to you to remember the Colson center and those of us on the Colson center team in your ongoing prayer. For Shane Morris, and John Stonestreet, who is taking a well-deserved week off, though. It's not really a week off ISA continue to work speaking at different organizations around the country. I've worn Smith. Thanks for being with us.

Shane Warren Smith Colson center Shane Morris John southern Baptist church southern Baptist southern Bapt John Stonestreet Texas Brian Ivy Catholic Bishop Birmingham Mills Chernobyl Colson center Missouri Alabama HBO New York Times
Ep. 81 : The #Exvangelical Community Roundtable (Live!)

Exvangelical

1:57:57 hr | 2 years ago

Ep. 81 : The #Exvangelical Community Roundtable (Live!)

"Hello and welcome to exponential splayed Chastain last month I flew on Clearwater Florida to participate on a panel with some amazing exponential people. Kathryn, bright, Bill, Kristol, Kiko Ross, David Wheeler, and Julia, Ingersoll. You'll hear from each of term. Even was called the extent Jellico community roundtable and explored what Chris termed the past prospects and projects our community, I was thankfully able to record the event. I'm really with here. Poppin occasionally with some introductory airlines. But for the most part, this follows the flow itself. Of course, here's your standard stuff. I mentioned at the top. You can follow me on Twitter at PR chest eight show at XM, delicate pot Facebook group by searching. The group name next. Introductory questions that we ask you fill out like the show on Facebook dot com. Can also merch. And you can spoil my while. Dot com slash. All these people that took his off panel also easing work out there as well. Listen to all that in the show or Chris rock. Katherine has. She works for. Creature does react. On twitter. Get straight through. Everyone welcome to the first next job will. I'm really very happy to be here with this commentators. We'd also like to recognize a few guests in the audience journalist and novelist. I just Cyrus Alexander Registan, Andy Kaye, and Ryan Connell as well also doing their own tour through through the states before we get into the individual discussions here. I like to talk a little bit about the term extent Jellicoe the podcast which I host started just over two years ago, July twenty sixteen since that time, the term has become quite popular into describing people who have lived who had lived experiences within joke, listen. But for variety of reasons were either forced out of their evangelical communities or left the reasons for people leaving are to be a little cheeky. And this is an inside insider type group. The reasons are Megyn to be honest. I'm. Some mainly because there's the became too liberal for their gatekeepers of their church or denominations or over issues such as biblical liberalism. Matters of social Justice, institutional racism, or anti LGBTQ bias some leave because of instance of racism, some may leave because they are gay queer or trans. They're not accepted as they are. The reasons are never Pat. They're always personal and leaving. Evan Jokela has profound consequences for the individual. They may lose family friends and even their livelihood the trauma. This causes in the life of the Jellicoe Israel. That is why I've been so encouraged by the community that has grown and expanded online over the past few years. Thanks to social media and podcasts. We've been able to find like minded people who have deconstructed their fundamentalist experiences and forging new paths forward. The exponential Facebook group has over three thousand members and the exponential hashtag receives tens of thousands of impressions on Twitter each day, other hashtags, such as the one that Chris started empty pews see similar engagement. Extend Jellico is a repudiation of Evan gel goes. It confirms it affirms whatever Djelic was condemns. We embrace moral and religious Hani. We embrace the community fully are thoroughly feminist denounced the role of white supremacy society in general in white white evangelicals in particular, we seek to be aware of the intersection, Allie of our work and build up one another's individual projects. There's no requisite theological creed. You will find gresson Christians, atheists, agnostics, wiccans, and other spilled spiritual expressions within this community. And equal. Respect and understanding is expected because it's our shared socio cultural heritage that binds us together. We have much in common and much to learn from one another. I believe one of the most effective ways to advocate and express exponential experiences through stories. And today you're going to hear stories about life inside and outside the Joel subculture told through personal narratives, academic study, investigative investigative journalism, and legislative work. Thanks for coming. Let's get into it. The first person that will be speaking today is Kathryn bright Bill. She was according to a website, she was schooled from first grade through high school. She was the youngest ever precinct committee woman elected to the Republican executive committee, and she sends changed parties. She received her and information in computer science, computer science from coming in college and JD from the university of Florida Levin college of law. She's also a board member legislative policy analyst for the coalition responsible home education. Their mission is to raise awareness for the need of home. Schooling reform provide policy guidance and advocate for responsible home education practices. Welcome Kathryn. On. I think what I wanted to do today and thanks everybody for coming out. His talk a little bit about the history of the homeschool movement of by kind of telling story at how my family got involved. It's fairly similar. Experiences of other people have. And every home school story is different. Everybody experiences are different, but there's a lot of commonalities the last few years in disgust in contacting with other home school, I'm not from around the country realized that we had all the same stories, save cultural experiences despite being spread out around the country in like very different backgrounds and families because of the way that the home school movement percolates these ideas through books, conventions through speakers. And so it also been in a lot of ways was one of the big driving forces in radicalizing the religious right in driving even Jellicoe ISM, even farther into conservatism farther to the religious political, right? Because of intentional. Strategy by the religious right movement leaders, homeschool movement to use home schooling to create soldiers in the contra war that if EROs in quiver. In the crib or full theology, which is idea if you have should have lots of kids too. Create more people to take over sighting of government. And so that wasn't my story. My parents started home schooling in nineteen eighty six. I've just when I start in first grade in kindergarten, because my care center is too young to start kindergarten out of in four. And in the meantime day, ended up deciding to home school is my dad was teaching Christian school at the time and is increasingly dissatisfied with the Christian school. And with the experience, my brother was having with teachers to really know what they were talking about. So at that time we were fairly mainstream. Even all the church, we were going to a southern Baptist church is one of the more liberal. Our southern Baptist churches wanted to church with low and child's his last democratic governor Florida. When one child nounce you running for governor pastor. Like wish to welcome Paul. It's fair like a mainstream. This is before the full related right takeover of some back convention in the nineties. So so we're like fairly mainstream. And then when we started home, schooling started to get to know people who are more conservative than and there's a peer pressure thing where parents kind of pushed pressure. Other homeschool parents had a move in that direction and to move in more conservative directions. And because when you're and once you get into that bubble, it turns into a feedback loop. So even though my parents are much more liberal in terms of like the home school community, we were around people. Who wore like angling Denham jumpers. And that kind of pushed dragged us into that more conservative direction because of that peer pressure, the culture was that. That way and what my parents didn't know at the time because they came from come from like a southern, even Jellicoe back on. My mom was raised in the even junkie United brethren church, which was Ed off-shoot or one to the early and a Baptist denominations in formed in North America. And my dad grew up in the what became the LCA so that it so they didn't have the. Back on the leg wedge to recognize that the people that were pushing the home school movement were different. The bed worth using even juggled turns. They're using to those kind of Christian terms that us all across lake American Christianity. But we're using in beautifying the terms in different ways to be more. To be more conservative to push this idea of using children and using families to take over like American government. And that's the purpose of the home school movement, religious, go minutes to raise kids takeover. The may. I can government. So my family was interested in politics anyway. So when like the pressure like put getting involved in politics involved in government. Like a natural fit because so that's and that's how like a lot of these movements work is that they take. People who already have inclinations and they hype it up and the, but you don't really tell you out front that their end goal is to implement a Christian theocracy. It's once you kind of get involved and get more and more involved that that cert- starts. That starts unfolding by that point year in dick with it, and it seems like it's normal because that's what everybody around you is talking about him believing. So we ended up getting involved in operation rescue in the early nineties because some of our home school friends were leaders in national operation, rescue running the us operation rescue programs in. So since we were friends with them from home schooling, they kind of nudged long in that way to get involved, which is a fairly common thing where you with home schooling, when you get into those more extreme movements, it's because you know other home schoolers who are involved in, they kind of start talking it up and encouraging you to get involved. So by the time I was thirteen I'd been arrested like three different times in two. Different states with ration- rescue, I spoken at operation. Rescue events did like interpretive dances at operation, rescue rallies, and are sold the idea and especially targeted that you've this idea that you are going to be the future leaders. You're going to take over the country, and this is your first step in your first training in taking over. And it's a very petty experienced because they took these young idealistic kids, and they sold us idea that we were already leaders, which is interesting. I learned in leading about ISIS that they actually use very similar tactic in giving extremely starts abilities, two young kids in order to get them fully engaged in the movements. So yes. So then, yeah, my parents were more. Educating their daughters, which is not always the case sister and I went to college. We, my parents always encouraged education. Parents discouraged early marriage. So in certain ways, outsiders even as we were in thick with the movement because the culture around us is pushing the idea that you should marry it like eighteen nineteen twenty that you shouldn't get the girl should get an education. And that. Yeah, so so going off to college and getting like, even though I went to Christian codge I want to covenant college. I had professors who. Attention to kind of debunked a lot of the Christian history. Myths that were taught in like that Bob Jones, Rebecca, these very conservative Christian history textbooks in kind of opened my eyes to how much textbooks at lied to me about everything. And. So this is so the. Yes. So this, yes. Oh, then as in the last like five or six years home school, alumni through social media has started started connecting the and realizing that all of our experiences that we had where the same that even though, like I grew up in an educated middle class, family with educated parents who encouraged college at the same like experiences as like these kids who grew up in like working class, very leg Royal fundamentalist families because of the home school movement, we said sharing stories and then met led to the launch of coalition for responsible home education back in twenty thirteen, which advocates for home school children, both in religious and secular home school families because homeschooling is very underregulated which it's intentionally underregulated. Price because the religious right didn't want anyone looking into what they were doing. So we've been trying to undo basically thirty year long day of using the home school movement setting up all of these laws to that were intentionally designed to fly under the radar in order to create soldiers for Christ takeover. The. American government, which is kind of where we are right now. And so yes with that, I will hand off. Either. Blake here just popping into mentioned that at this point, Catherine handed the mic over to Chris droop longtime listeners to the show. No, Chris, Chris has been on the show twice and isn't active partner in building expand gel community in conversation. He's an academic in journalist whose work covering the religious right has been published in religion, dispatches playboy foreign policy in most recently, day magazine in with that context, what's returned to Chris, I'm not very tech savvy even though I'm kind of known as a Twitter personality that sort of accidentally happened, but it's helped us to build the excellent Jellico community which for you know, here to discuss. And I think in some ways celebrates day, it's been very much the rise of the internet and social media that has. Allowed. So many of us to connect with one another in recent years to find the kinds of projects that other people are working on into realize that. So many of us have had very similar experiences. We called this event. The exponential community has projects and prospects, and I want to speak to sort of every point there today a little bit in kind of telling some of my own story and then moving into, you know what Exxon gels are doing now and what some things I think we could be pursuing could can be for the future and I'll just say up front, you know, I think we want to organize more of these kinds of in-person offline events. They think that building the community that exists outside of Twitter and outside the internet in general would be a good thing. So we kind of hoped that by hosting something like this. Might encourage people who are, you know, from this area to connect more locally and that things might sort of. Start to snowball from there. And I know that Joe cya Hesse the group that's here with him today. They're planning to do a lot of events in different localities right now as their touring the country as part of his launch of his second book and the Karnali series, which is a psychological horror series about the history of even delicate. I mean, it's really, it's, it's it's remarkable. I've read the first book in the series. The second book is just out I would highly recommend it. So that's one project that I want to highlight and you know, I didn't know that he was out there in Denver doing all this stuff until about a year ago when I think the online exponential community really started expanding, and they're also part of what they're doing now is they're guttering stories. They're going around to documents both evangelical and x. men Jellicoe history, individuals stories, which is a lot of what Blake does with the x men. Jellicoe podcast. Cast. And I think for many of us, those kinds of stories are simply really important, getting them out in public and hearing other people's stories and saying, hey, I'm not the only one is validating and empowering. And I mean, you know, many people have left hardline, conservative religious communities, oppressive abusive communities over the years, but to be able to connect with with others is something that hasn't always been available often really isolating process. And you know, part of what I've done in helping to build exponential community has been to create and promote certain hashtags. And so often, when you see these hashtags when they and people really start pick up on him, you see a lot of people saying, oh, you had that experience too. I thought it was the only one. So I think that that's really important. I'm known for creating the hashtags empty. The pews which I launched a little over a year ago at it's kind of a protest against even delicate complicity and what happened at Charlottesville and the way that even gels after Trump's, they're very fine people on both sides. There's very Nazis out there. You know. That even delicate. We're either silent on that or immediately went to his defense in Robert Jeffress said on TV shortly after that, Trump didn't have a racist bone, his body, which is just utter bullshit like extreme. Extreme gas lighting. And it was frustrating to me. It was just roofing on Twitter and I was thinking, how do you even get through to to even jealous who are just masters of production and deflections and total lack of self consciousness? They don't listen to any criticism ever, but I thought, well, there's one thing that they are afraid of and that is losing the youth and losing numbers and their churches. And so that's how the hashtag the Pierre's was born and I held for people to share their stories either why they hadn't hadn't left even Jellicoe them or to their churches. Now in protests and share those stories and have talked to a number of people for whom even Jellicoe embrace of Trump and they're still around seventy five or seventy eight percent rate history him favorable seventy eight percent of weight even Djelic according to last poll I saw. So that was the last draw for a lot of people. And for many of us who had already left because we were personally alienated on some level, either the. Intellectualism or being queer or misogyny or the racism. I think the election of Trump early was galvanizing helping us helping us to start trying harder to connect with others. A lot of us have been kind of voices crying in the wilderness, trying to say things about what's wrong with even delicate and how as a political movement, it's hurting the country and that sort of brought us together. So other hashtags that have been affective, Christian facts has trended a couple of times, and it's helped people like me who went to Christian school or like Katherine, who was home schooled to expose the kinds of really bizarre things that we were taught. Like, you know, the lock monsters real improves the dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time or the amount of dust on the moon shows that the earth couldn't possibly be billions of years old. Yeah, never with references appear of you literature. I wonder why. But anyway, so that that was kind of a good one and. Rapturous -iety was another another one where a lot of people were like, oh, I thought it was the only one who grew up terrified that I was going to be left behind and have to survive the tribulation, which by the way, it's huge theme. Joe houses literary work, which everyone should read. So so yeah, those those been empowering. And then I think one good thing about this is that is brought this community together. But another thing is that people from outside of of that community, people who didn't grow up even Jellicoe background. They see these trending hashtags, and then it helps us to expose the extremists that a very large segment of children in America grow up with. And so much of America thinks that boats. That's that's just really marginal stuff. We don't have to care about it. We don't have to worry about it, but you know, it's not marginal. It's the vast majority of even gels and there has been a radicalization particularly since the nineteen eighties that Catherine, it has been a part of my family was kind of a part of two. So when it comes to, you know, our prospects, I think for me personally, the goals of the Jellicoe movement. I certainly share with Blake both the idea that you know. Collecting stories and getting those stories out there has hasn't been value. And I think it has a men's value in two ways. One is for because it's very healing. You know, though sometimes it can be triggering, but another way it has values for the rest of the American society where they need to wake up to the very real presence of attorney and Christianity in the United States that you know, it was currently pretty much in control of of the government's the wake up to how dangerous that is. We need to stop treating religious inherently benign. And stop treating every large Christian group is inherently benign, you know? So if we get the public to listen to our stories, if we can become stakeholders and national conversations about even jealous, we can start to change the media narrative which has been so shaved in their favor. Thanks to their maneuvering with events like the gathering and thanks to, you know, the kind of charisma of fake moderates like Russell more and you know, maybe Kiko talk about him. I don't know. 'cause she's gonna talk about her experience of, you know, being very heavily involved in southern Baptist churches. But you know, he gets coverage in major media outlets all the time, and it's always very positive coverage. Put such a great spin. They're like, look, he, he thinks that black people are equal to white people. Isn't that great? I mean, that's a super low bar right. You know, they Pat him on the head and then they're like, see, most delicate fine. They're not a threat to democracy, but you know, Russell Moore, if you go dig into his website, he has called pluralism and feminism heresies. So he's talking out of a different side of his mouth to the Jellicoe audience. And if you don't accept pluralism, you don't accept democracy. You know that this is an anti-democratic authoritarian force basically owns the Republican party now and it's undermining democracy and the rule of law. And if we want to reverse that we, we have to expose it. So part of what I'm trying to do is to shape media discourse as much as possible. We've gotten covering Accenture have gotten coverage in Newsweek and guardian. So we're making some strides in that regard. So I guess that's what I really wanted to say about prospects. And I've highlighted a couple of projects. You know, another one that I'm doing is just my own blog. It's called not your mission field and you can. Find it crystal dot com. I haven't jello conversations series there part of other people's stories. And then I also do analytical essays right would call them auto ethnographic because they combine elements of biography with sociological analysis, right? So I sit you my own experiences which helps to draw people in in these broader tendencies. So yeah, so then to kind of go back and I guess through this sort of in reverse order, talk about pass and just a little bit about my own story and how I got to that point. I was also sort of a part of this nineteen eighties radicalization of even Jellicoe ZIM where you know, I think you know over the that period up to today, any kind of serious distinction between fundamentalist and evangelical 's new longer really holds, you know, sure. There's fifteen to twenty percent of them who I don't know what they're doing. There. You know and don't vote for the Republican candidate for president every single time, and you know, down the entire party line. But you know, overwhelmingly, white evangelical are hard line radical -tarian conservatives my parents came from, you know, families fairly moderate religion. My mom's parents were, we'll her, I guess, my my grandma's my last remaining grandparents are still is those shoes not really going to church these days, but United Methodist my dagger up Lutheran. I think Missouri, but his family just didn't take it seriously, you know, and after the turbulence of the nineteen sixties and they were going to both state university in the early seventies. I think they were really looking for something to give them a kind of sense of solidity instability, and they found it in the campus house there that was run by Christian student town Dacian. So they kind of had conversions to this more sort of radical form of even Djelic and if they hadn't, I guess I wouldn't have been born, so there's that. But. But, but yes, so my mom got a teaching degree and then she became a Christian schoolteacher by the time that my younger sister and I were old enough to go to school which we were expected to go to the Christian school. I think a lot of people don't know this, but Christian schools pretty much require the children of teachers to attend those schools and they used to pretty much way the entire tuition. But now they give you discounts increase with seniority. So my still Christian schoolteacher and my dad when I was born, he was high school marching band director, and then he was doing freelance music suffering composing writing jingles, that sort of thing studio work for a while. But then he became a music pastor. And we were at an independent Christian church when he was first music, passer, and my family didn't have as much direct experience with activism as Catherine. But it was always encouraged our environment. And so I, I've never been arrested actually, but I was taken to an antiabortion protests. There was not nationwide. You know, Andy choice protests in nineteen ninety one. And I think other years to called life chain and the church that we were part of it that time traders point Christian church near Indianapolis, bust people out to the protests. So I did that precisely once it was it was weird. But you know, they take small children to these things where people are having showing these gruesome signs and holding up models of fetuses. And yeah. And then. Then my dad got a phone call from a pastor who is. Doing they call it church plant, you know, in Colorado Springs, Colorado, that was more mega church inspired. I would say this whole, like sort of hipster Christianity seeker, sensitive movement. You don't have a church bulletin. You call it a program. You make church into rock show. So he was excited about that idea because the independent Christian church was a little bit boring for him in terms of his creative side. So we moved the family to Colorado Springs in nineteen Ninety-three which is also the focus on the family, moved there, and one of the big executives and focus at that time. Kurt Leander attended our church which as far as I remember my dad kind of considered a feather in the churches cap. Now he's like, oh, I was never into focus on the family. And he listened to rush them is I don't remember what year nineteen eighty something red, orange, ugly, Pinto that didn't have air conditioning and. He's like, oh, I was never that interest Limbaugh. Yes, you are. So so you know the Christian school there is even more extreme Colorado Springs Christian school. I remember getting yelled at by face lunch lady wants because she overheard me calling humans primates and I was like, this isn't it mean we've all it's just a biological classification. Because I was a super nerdy seventh grader. Nope. She was having none of that anyway because that pastor classic case, you know, sort of went on a power trip and I don't have all the details because even delicacies are always super vague about these things. You know, purposefully apparently was abusing authority didn't wanna Smit to an elder board threatened the job security of my dad and the youth pastor guiding Murdy, long core who was also from Indiana. So they wrote a strongly worded, but I'm sure very, very vague still hope to find it someday letter to the the missionary church basically complaining about his abuses. And then they threw also through the umbrella organization of the missionary church decided to go back to Indiana and start their own church plant. So we went back and they went back to heritage Christian school in Indianapolis, which is where I graduated from that church plant failed. And some of the people blame my dad for not tithing fulltime percent of salary, which was ugly because you know, he didn't make very much couldn't really afford to, but that's obviously failed. Have you have enough faith. So that definitely shaped my experience of Christianity. But my my deconstruction really started when I was about sixteen years old. I read the entire bible for the first time and I couldn't make certain things hold together and I didn't like this, you know, divinely ordained, genocide that I was reading about the Old Testament. And so I went and talked to our then pastor who later also became a bible teacher at that school. America's morning. It was big into spiritual warfare and told them about my doubts and Houston, sympathetic, and everyone thought he was real intellectual in our community. And so he gave me some apologetic book to read not one of the famous ones. It was in question and answer format, and I can't remember what it was, but it wasn't Lee Strobel or Josh McDowell or anybody like that. And I read it, and the answer still seem kind of to Pat for me to resolve all these issues that had with taking the bible as in littoral. Contradictions. And so I went back and then of course, the problem was with me, right? So that's where I started to experience serious virtual abuse. I was I was obviously harboring sin in my life. That's the phrase that he used because I, if I weren't, I would be able to read the bible through the Holy Spirit and to see that it's, of course in areas how could it be otherwise. So it was my fault, you know? And then this led to a lot of anxiety and doubt through the rest of high school. Maybe Calvinism is true, and I'm just part of the reprobates. There was the time that I thought I'd committed the unpardonable sane and had a palpable lump things. I might Chester. We. Until certain people in my community manage to convince me that since you want to repay, obviously can repair. So you must not have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Great. So you know, I kind of went on that way becoming increasingly progressive, but mostly just simulating with my family because it's very hard to make that sort of break with your family, you know, and the people in your community and the social costs that comes with that for almost the next two decades or so. I mean, it was only when I was thirty five that I first published a really scathing piece of commentary that was critical of even Jellicoe ISM and I published it on religion dispatches. And then it was picked up by some on alternate. So got a lot of play and that created a really rough couple of years with some of the people in my family. My aunt yelled at me for hurting my mom. My sister yelled at me for hurting my mom. They said, I'm attacking everything they stand for because he, no, you can't just tacking homophobia, you have to be talking everything. Everything. And had a couple of very awkward years. Very difficult conversations with my mom that also involved me alternately telling her that I'm queer, which she did not initially take well, but I'm fortunate in the sense that it has. Led to a place where my mom actually respects my boundaries. Now, they knew that wasn't going to church for years at my mom kept saying churches, a great place to make friends. Well, she doesn't do that anymore. Thankfully, and my had had already really kind of he was a safe person to talk to because like most even gels, he's not really threatened by difference. So you know, I was still in that kind of place where I sure wish that I had more people who had similar experiences to talk to, and then Trump happened. And then hashtags happened. That's my story. I think. Then next pain we heard from was Akiko Ross Kiko had spent forty years in the southern Baptist church before ultimately leaving after the rise of Donald Trump and the support she saw for him inside the church. Her story is incredible. Any further introduction I would try to provide would not really do Justice at the tail end of the session. She mentioned that she will have some more coming out in the future and Ivor one cannot wait to read it. Here's a Kiko Kiko socially because I still work in the legal field. Mice story is not as complicated as theirs, and I don't have the academic credentials of anybody else on this panel because I was raised by Buddhist mother and an air force father who has church of Christ. So if you don't know those two cultures than your unaware that both of those cultures prefer male children only. So when you grow up and my mother had never. Wanted to be married or have children. So she made sure she let me know from very early age that she had gone to an abortion clinic to get rid of me and my father stopped her and married her. So by the time I was nine, it was very ingrained that I was very unwanted kit and I wanted a place to belong and I walked down the street to VS southern Baptist BVS where they welcome you. They welcome you with open arms. They tell you how much you are loved and they accept you where you are or so you think. So. I start in with evangelicalism at a very early age, and I'm the only FAM one in my family going. So I don't know about all the other things happening in the church because my perspective is as a kid who's just being accepted in a group and community becomes very important to me. But I was always democrat, I spent one brief year as a Republican and my job for the Republican party in northwest Florida. I worked as a party hostess. So my job was to dress up in a gown and introduce powerful Republican men to each other and try. To avoid them grabbing me every chance they got. So I ended Mike experiment with the Republican party very early because of that. So when I'm a democrat and Christian evangelical Christian at the same time, it's the same kind of dichotomy. I'm experiencing at home where my father is trying to raise me as a boy, but I'm being told I can only do girl things. So I turned to drinking at a very young age and I'm very, very good at hiding it taking the thermos to school, and I can function perfectly fine because school is so very easy and no one knows not even my closest friends would know, and because I have Japanese, I don't share any of it. I'm all about keeping keeping face. Never losing face. Never bring dishonor on your family or your group or anything. So when things started happening such as Roe v Wade. I'm marched for Roe v Wade as a preteen. But I don't tell anybody. I marching the later seventies for a women's right to have credit cards in her own name. And I fight with the local store to give me credit insisting that my gender should not stop me. They give in because I show up every day for four weeks and they finally. They finally give up. But when I be when I start getting involved in a southern Baptist church, it doesn't take me long to understand that women have a place in the church, but it second place. It's always going to be second place. And the first thing you have to be able to put away is your intelligence. You have to put away your intellect, you have to be able to laugh at whatever some man says and be able to accept that. He is always going to rule over you that his opinion matters and yours doesn't if it disagrees with his. So you're pushed into early marriage because you're told and I, I'll tell you this before I was thirty nine. I was married into voiced four times all to Christian men, all of whom never bothered to propose, but just announced that God told them that I was the one and I was so involved in the church that I did not see that I might have say, so that I had the ability to say. No, and so I didn't. But by the time I was thirty nine. I was already deconstructing without realizing it. I started in nineteen ninety eight. I'd been Baptist messenger for, I don't know how many conventions but the page Patterson convention is the one that does me in when they write the new statement on marriage. And when they basically tell you that women are only complements to men that we cannot be leaders except over children in our home. I realize I'm still in a dichotomy that I am not fitting in, but I still try for years to fit in, but I, I ride a letter to the convention revoking my membership as a southern Baptist. If you don't know this about that, they keep you on their roles forever. They'll move you from church church, but they will not remove you unless you tell them to. So I did it. I kept attending Baptist churches, but I stopped tithing in nineteen ninety eight. And I thought that would disqualify me from the teaching in the leading I was able to do, but it didn't because there is a dearth of leadership in the Baptist church, especially when it comes to leading women and children, which is by the way, the only areas you can lead as a woman. I began in singles ministry but could not lead a class on my own because I needed to have a man lead with me and began to realize very quickly how little those men knew how to teach that. They had positions just because they were men, not because they knew how to reach people. So I began to form women's groups and realize my groups were getting bigger and bigger and the men's groups were not growing. And when I was asked, I would say you have got to be able to talk to people and make a connection, and if you're not able to connect them where where they are, they don't care what you have to say. So my bible studies became more about self esteem and. Raising yourself up to see yourself as being an equal to a man. Now, I could do this through the church because they never looked at what I was teaching. I had been involved for so long. They no longer really had any oversight as long as I was addressing only women. But what I was beginning to see and began to alarm me through the eighties nineties. And then by the two thousands, where I was dealing with women that were depressed, anxious unhappy, wanting to work at more fulfilling jobs of being told that they were their jobs were to have children, raised children's, stay home, have more children. You can have a little teaching job on the side if you want, but you can't go into any fields that matter. So we didn't have women professors, women, lawyers, women scientists. We didn't see any of that until lately. This is a younger generation of people up here who see who's. Evangelicalism has told them to make an army that takes over these jobs, but I come from a generation where women were not to do any of that. So I stopped my education for my husband's so they could have their educations including putting one through for a second degree and then having him leave. So my youngest child who is sitting here was diagnosed with a progressive disorder when she was five and the women of my church came to me to ask me very sweetly. What unconfessed sin did I have that I wanted to share in order to heal her? And my response was, don't you believe that God made everybody? Do you think he makes mistakes? Because I don't believe that there would be mistakes, and I don't think anybody on the planet is amiss state including her. So my journey was a slow one. It was like when you drop a frog into cold water and then turn up. The heat, the frog will die before the frog ever realizes he needs to jump out. I didn't realize I need it to jump out and then the two thousand fifteen election cycles started. And I noticed that my friends going back forty and fifty years were suddenly on this Trump train, and I couldn't understand how, and I would start to have conversations with them. And it dawned on me very quickly. The reason that they see him as ordained and anointed and put into office by God is because he is a white man because when you ask them, what about Obama wouldn't he have been deigned how about Bill Clinton? They don't see any of them as having been ordained for office. And then I got to hear about something that I'd never heard before called the Cyrus prophecy where you can use an evil man to do the bidding of God and for the better for the betterment of the country. And that's where they hang their hat. I call him the orange CAF because hit his like the golden calf when Moses comes down from the mountain, and he realizes all these people have turned away from God and worshipped at idle. And that's how I see Trump. And when that happened, I began unfriendly them all. They would write me in call me and say why. And I said we are not morally compatible anymore. I am not going to be able to watch you trash people who are not white because I am not white. You have always thought of me is white when you didn't think of me as yellow, but I'm neither one. I'm both. So in dealing with Christian men in the church as single. I learned about something else. I didn't know apparently growing up military bases, shelters you from a lot. But there is a thing called yellow fever. And if. If you are are Asian the especially if you're Japanese, the gist of it is that they see us all as geishas and they see geishas as basically prostitutes. And so I would be propositioned by Christian men and married ones to with I, I should be able to sleep with them because, you know, it's not really cheating on their wives. It's not really cheating because I'm I'm a prostitute anyway. Right? And it's like I was full on in purity culture. How do you think I got married so many times it isn't because it is because it's Mary Byrne. That's what you learn as southern Baptist Mary or bird. And so when you're under that pressure and a man approaches you and tells you that God has told him, you are the one and you believe God that you believe him. So now I'm almost fifty eight. So that's looking at twenty years back in the meantime, in two thousand fifteen. I walk away from the church entirely because I realize I've now bought into a system that's a cult one that treats white males as the only only acceptable leadership anywhere. And I can't deal with that because I meet too many people who are so good at everything and are not given the chance simply because they were not born with the right body part and the right skin color. So I look at this as even more so the patriarchy has made it so that women Christian women is specially have begun to feel like they are worthless and I don't like it. I don't like it. When I hear a woman, say her highest calling is to be at home and have children. I think that's a great calling. I don't think it's the only one. When Ivanka Trump says on Labor Day to thank the women who stay home, and I'm thinking this was about organized labor. This is not about somebody staying home and I realized how out of touch the religious right has become and that the reason that they want to keep us where we are is because if we rise up and if we work together, we can change the way this country is going. And that's what you're seeing. Now, the metoo movement showed how prevalent sexual abuse was not only in the community at large, but within the church itself because within a southern Baptist church, the because this goes back to page. Patterson is if you're husband abused as you, you must return to him because your faith will save him. He will see how were the you are and he will change. And in my mind, I'm thinking, but you think of us as worthless. You think of us as an appendage to a man, but now you're telling us we're worthy and we can change him. Those two things don't go together in my head. And then I began school here and took world religions for the first time. And I've studied religion for years and years because it's brought up in a southern Baptist setting every single year. You're taking several weeks of classes and I learn about something I haven't known and I feel like an idiot and for days I'm raging and crying and I'm, I'm dealing with him, say, I don't. I don't even know how to deal with this. I learn about Zorro astronaut them. And as I'm listening to, I realize that is not so different from Christianity. Those are all the same things. Those are the same symbols. Those are the same and it. It throws me for Luke because then I have to start thinking, where am I on this path? I am still a progressive Christian and I'm a homeless one. Because trying to find so-social Justice church in this area has not worked out well for me because I'm all about wanting to take care of the poor and the needy, and I want people to have better choices. I want to be able to show them how to interview for better jobs. I want to show them how to live on a basic income, but I can't do that without a community of some sort because I'm only one person. So what I've lost in this journey was my sense of community. My sense of family knowing that I had activities and things to do with, and my social circle has gotten so small that outside of this group I have my daughter and my friend, Cindy, and that has been it in this area because everything else I had to leave behind to stand up for doing what's morally legally ethically correct, which is to make sure that we allow. A government that remembers that it has checks and balances that this is a Madison democracy and not a sovereign nation of any sort. We are. This is not a monarchy, and I want to make sure that we change that. So I am back in school to get my bachelors of science in public policy because my intent is to work to restore those checks and balances in the system. And by the way, I'm also a big public school proponent. I do not like the idea of home schools or Christian schools if it takes away from the kids who can't afford either not everyone can have a parent to stay home and take care of them and put them through school and not everybody can afford to pay for school. So I wanna public option that works for most people because I want them educated too. And that's my story. Stephen, David is professor of journalism at the university of Tampa and received his undergraduate degree from Asbury university in Wilmore Kentucky. He was also a member of the faculty there for time he's written for CNN the Atlantic in the New York Times piece is related to the realities of being q. on Christian campuses as well as the changing academic landscapes joked colleges and elsewhere. Here's David. So my name is David Wheeler. I m a journalism professor at the university of Tampa. And I am a fugitive from the evangelical subculture, a fugitive from an evangelical college, which was both my. Mater and my employer. I, I wanna I wanna. Tell tell you a story about how this college degenerated in the from being a college that had a vibrant atmosphere where there was actual debate happening on real issues, and you were allowed to be at this evangelical college which was at the time it's called Asbury college. Now, it's as a university near Lexington, Kentucky. And when I was a student there. There was vibrant debate. There was a college Democrats club as well as an that laughing, visit xactly. What I'm talking about. Unbelievable. Take. There was a, there was a college Democrats group in the nineties. I was there from ninety five to ninety nine. You could be a feel liberal. You could be a political liberal and you could be part of the community. There was we had a speaker one time when I was an undergrad as berry who said Jesus would never have been a member of the Christian Coalition. Did you ever do you remember that group from from way back when he's a Jesus, never would have done that. So it was it was a place where there was rigorous debate and and you could you could be openly liberal the allegedly in politically? Well, I graduated in ninety nine and when I came back to teach there in two thousand six things had changed, and I wanna tell you a story, a particular story about what happened when I was a student newspaper visor and it hastened my exodus from the evangelical subculture, and I essentially became a fugitive from the local sub culture and the university of Tampa saved me. And so now I can teach at a normal college. I'm not a member of the LGBT plus community myself, but it was the treatment of that group that really hastened my my exodus from this subculture picture, it spree. Ring of two thousand nine. Everybody is talking about what they called at the time, gay marriage. You know what we would now say, marriage equality. Everybody was talking about gay marriage in two thousand nine a few years earlier. The Piscopo church had ordained the first openly gay Bishop. Everybody was talking about it. Why wouldn't eighteen to twenty two year old college students also be talking about it. They were. I was the student newspaper adviser, and I've very, very naively. Thought when one of my students said, I'd like to write in bed saying the church needs to rethink how it looks at the community. And I was like, well, that's a great idea. And this is how her bed began. She gives the disclaimer I need to stay from the beginning that I'm fully aware that the views I'm about to express are not shared by the majority of campus. They're not even shared by the majority of the newspaper staff. So she says this disclaimer, this is only my view, not the colleges view. She says, I do not believe by the way, her name is Katie pain, big shoutout Katie pain. Now she lives in Texas. Now she says, I do not believe there is a biblical basis for homosexuality and Christianity being mutually exclusive. Meaning I do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. When explored in the context of a committed monogamous relationship. Dust began or roller coaster ride of my life. As the student newspaper adviser, I was dragged into one administrator's office after another. How could you do this? Don't you realize donors are going to be pulling their money. We had to publish as the student newspaper, we published four additional pages of the newspaper to accommodate the letters to the editor that rolled into the newspaper after she wrote this at a to'real. The. Letters from people were this beautiful if you'll pardon the pardon? The expression, beautiful rainbow of views of you points. Everyone's view was represented everyone from exactly right Katie. The church needs to welcome the t. community all the way to people saying. You know what? Back when I was at Asbury in the sixties. It was racism that we were dealing with. Well. I was so naive to think that. You could still have this vibrant debate that I had as an undergrad because as berry song opportunity and that was embrace the religious right fully and completely Mitch. McConnell got is starting to get hit. He wasn't invited to speak when I was a student Mitch McConnell, the longtime Senator from from Kentucky who was Senator in the nineties as well majority leader. And he started getting honorary degrees and invited to speak at the inauguration of of the as president in two thousand seven. Eventually it got so bad that as a journalism professor, I started getting the following kinds of questions from students and their parents. And of course, as we know the decision for your kid to go to a an evangelical college is a family decision. It's not just the kids decision family comes and kick the tires of this place. They're going to send their kid to. And I would get questions like this. You know, David, we're only considering colleges that have a human sexuality statement does as berry, have a human sexuality statement that's code. Let me read you a small portion of as Bury's human sexuality statement. A faithful interpretation of scripture affirms the principle that sexual purity honors God and that all forms of sexual intimacy that occur outside of the covenant of heterosexual marriage are sinful distortions of the beauty that God intended. We do not surrender the biblical standard of sexual purity to the prevailing secular culture, nor the definition of male and female. Those words are in quotes to mean something more or different than an individual sex at birth translation. Gay people not welcome transgender people not welcome. In fact, I wrote an article for the chronicle of higher education where the day after the Berga fell decision as berry got together all of their current impasse presidents got on stage and said, we have to figure out a way to survive the day. When the federal government says you have to start admitting gay and transgender students. We have to build up down enough to where you don't need federal loans to go here anymore. So I escaped as a fugitive from as berry, and I now teach at the university of Tampa and a lot more to say, but I'm gonna stop now and turn things over. Use that. Final panelist is Julie Ingersoll. She is the professor of religious studies at university of south Florida where she teaches about religion, American culture with a focus on religion in politics in the religious right. She earned her PHD in religious studies from the university of California, Santa Barbara, and she's also the author of the book building God's kingdom inside the world of Christian reconstruction. Here's Julie. That isn't holding it. Hi, thank you for being here. This is really exciting, and I'm so thankful to have been invited to participate like Kiko. I feel alienated in I live in Jacksonville, and there aren't communities there where you have real opportunity to build relationships with people who. Aren't Trump supporters for exa- just as a shorthand for that. So so participating event like this is just really nice and rewarding for me, and I appreciate being here. My personal background is in some ways similar. Although I left even Jellicoe is in much much longer ago than any of these folks. My background there was much more extreme as well. Certainly, certainly being arrested with operating rescue wasn't ordinary thing for me years ago, but I was also part of Christian Reconstructionist family and co founded a Christian school and was involved in all kinds of aspects of some of the most extreme parts of Jellicoe and I'm happy to talk about those sorts of things, but I'm fine if away from that now that I kind of wanted to take a different tack here. I'm also now a professor religious studies at the university of north Florida. My training is in American religion and sociology, religion, and I've written a good bit on the kinds of issues that give rise to exponential movement. My first book is about even Jellicoe women who are leaderships in positions where their leadership roles are contest. Did and the conflicts they face. It was written before there were podcasts, but in many ways, it's an ethnic graphic study that draws on the stories of the women who experienced the conflict. So I see it is in many ways an earlier version of the kinds of work that you're doing like. And then my most recent book is about Christian reconstruction and the ways that that movement played into the rise of the religious right, and gave the character that we see to even Jellicoe them today. So because I want to talk about, I kind of see what I can do here. What I can contribute here as to sort of help provide some sort of larger context for understanding the individual stories. I think this individual stories are crucially important for a bunch of reasons that I'm sure that we'll talk about, but I think it's easy for people who are defensive, about criticism of Jellicoe them to take individual stories and say, oh, that's just some. That's just one story. So I think that the balance of sort of academic. Work in the background that SIS situates these stories in a larger historical context. Allergic critique can be valuable to the conversation. So with that, I apologize. I have some written notes academic in talking about academic stuff, so I wanna get the language, right? So I wanna start with some general comments about this specific subculture that we refer to when we talk about even Jellicoe now and then follow with some brief comments about the use of the term over time and why exponential voices are crucially important. The long accepted story was that about nineteen eighty in the aftermath of Roe versus Wade of Jellicoe Christians coalesced into a political movement. We came to call that the Christian right or the religious, right? But historian, rainy random bomber has successfully challenged that narrative by demonstrating that the central concerns were mowed motivating this early organizing. Concerns about race, concerns about integration in schools. We'll come back to that. But as a right in my own work in the early nineteen fifties to the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies a small groups of conservative Christians were building a critique of American culture. They framed pluralism as polytheism and fought expanding notions of equality of all kinds. They fought for policies that short patriarchy perpetuated white supremacy, and they sought to replace public education with Christian education. I, it was Christian schools, and then it was the Christian homeschool movement. They explicitly articulated a multigenerational strategy to transform all of culture. They promoted to use their terms of biblical worldview. The establishment of the kingdom of God or taking the culture for Christ. At the very center of that strategy was the Christian school movement and the Christian homeschool movement. These forms of Christian education sometimes shock outsiders who expect a curriculum similar to a public school curriculum with a religion class added in. But home schoolers report sometimes very little curriculum at all. Other families us really intellectually impoverished curriculum like Bill Gothard AT. But even at the other end of the spectrum, their schools that promote what they call a classical Christian education, which meet many standards of academic rigor, but they're still focused on raising up culture warriors to build the kingdom of God. In virtually all instances, we find the perpetuation of strong gender hierarchies, and since that the righteous should expect persecution and even martyrdom across the board, the curriculum is infused what exponential Kohl's have called Christian old facts such as young as creationism, and so called Christian American history to name just two aspects of this. We can discuss that in more detail. If you wish, but cultivating a willingness to deny rationality as a badge of membership is fertile soil for president who says, Orwellian fashion, don't believe what you see in here. Believe what I tell you. My second point the term, even Jellicoe itself is contested in ways that matter. Protestantism in America goes back to the colonial era, even with even what we might call revivalist. Protestantism that gave rise to Jellicoe, has deep roots. But while today's evangelical them has long historical roots, it's also very much a product of the second half of the twentieth century. The term evangelical has a multiplicity of meetings and a history that has been largely written by elite evangelical themselves. Starting with George Marston Nathan hatch and Martineau. The story has been told in such a way to connect today's even jealou- Kohl's with some of the best parts of American religious history. They claim the nineteenth century social reform movements, including the right to the fight for the right for women to vote, but not slavery. They claim the civil rights movement, but not segregation slavery, segregation. Framed as perversions of the tradition, not authentic parts of it. This is what scholars call an often to city discourse. These ways in which even Jellicoe ISM are defined, are self serving. The boundaries can be moved at will to insulate quote, unquote, authentic evangelical them from critique. And while these authenticity discourses are common among insider elites who speak for the tradition, think academics, media representatives journalists who seek out perspective on Jellico ZIM their strategic and non falsifiable and they shouldn't satisfy scholars or journalists. So in my view, the exponential movement is important for at least two reasons. I when I left Evan Jellicoe zoom for so many years ago, there was no Facebook croup or x. via Twitter I headed so much of that resetting with just a couple of friends and make no mistake. This exit takes a serious rethinking of everything. The network of support and encouragement is invaluable. Second exit polls show. Clearly that definitions that purportedly. Rely on a set of theological beliefs, the Beddington quadrilateral for insider language there. Those definitions are really inadequate. Jellicoe beliefs vary over time, and they're both diverse and not unique to even locals what makes even Jellicoe discernible as a group are shared cultural touchstones. And today those are largely not those preferred by the cultural who elites who want to protect a respectable of Jellicoe respectable is in quotes there to there's a larger significance to this because even gels, especially few of you are really good at social media, organizing logging podcasting, and even scholarship x. fees are now challenging that self serving narrative in really important ways. They're pointing out the problems in the tradition and directly challenging the efforts to promote it and protect it from critique. So I think that the work specifically the Chris does with regard to put. Being an alternative reading of Angelico tradition out there in public is crucially important. So those are my comments. Thanks. Thanks again for being. I'm John hates me. And in this final section, here is our questions from the audience section. We get to have some good dialogue with members of the audience. I hope you enjoy this final bit of the show woman that the audio quality here is a little rougher because our audio tech hand disappeared for whatever reason. So sorry about that. But hopefully you can understand and hear the questions will. It didn't sound like you remake. It was great. I think he panelists for for your wonderful stories insights. We want to actually open everything to panel discussion now as well as to questions from the audience. First off, I think are sounds just gone and also the wireless mic doesn't record. So if you don't, if you have a question you can. I can sort of sneak this one is close as kit if you wanna come forward. If you have a question for the panel. Anybody. Yeah, yeah, that's totally fine. Maybe I'll even sit down. Already aware of a significant field of study regarding religious trauma, specifically the the aspect of eternal torture in hell. And like we've been talking about with rapture anxiety, I spoke with one psychologist, Valerie to Rico who talks about, you know the way that evangelical culture kind of robs you of ability to rationalize and trust your own thoughts and instincts. But outside of the conversation I've had with her and some of her writing, I'm not aware of a very broad. Research that's been done papers that have been written people who are experts in this field. And I was wondering if some of you as people that are, you know, various connections to academia, whereas anything that has any momentum behind this field of study. This actually a really old book living in the shadow second coming, which is terrific on this written by historian. So I don't. I don't have any work in psychology, certainly in in history of American religious history. And since y'all Aji some, I'm doing some now working on persecution and martyrdom narratives in the way that and times were plea in fiction, please into that sort of stuff. But there is some out there from historical sociological perspective. I know of in terms of psychology, I don't know much beyond Merlene will and Valerie co, but Joshua Grubbs is a social psychologist and and Jellicoe in his undergraduate own Motors, liberty university, and he and at least one of his grad students are now doing some related research there, and he would also be a good person to ask about the research that's out there. There's one of the person that that I'm aware of that is doing this on a more individual basis. Her name is Theresa as well Matteis, and she's written books about spiritual trauma and religious trauma, and is also doing more private work. And she also runs the mystic soul project. So she is centered on that is a personal color centered. Conference that she puts together and is working on, but she does right ally. Shit. That's not always tied specifically to journalism. She has a. Has a spiritual background. That includes some joke lsm and but also includes extremes within Catholicism and other places too. But there are some people even on those individual levels that are doing within their personal psychological practices as well as like building out their own programs and events. Great question. Earlier this week coalition of conservative evangelical sustainment on social Justice. Any of you are are familiar with this? Like. A million with and could speak to any of the statements that that were. I can speak to that. I just actually recorded a podcast episode where we broke down, translated deconstructed the whole thing. So Thursday night, I recorded a podcast episode of this new podcast called kitchen table colts. It's hosted by Hannah adding and I'm Karen dark water. Many of you may know Karen, dark Watters auto straddle piece about Christa fascism. It really helped popularize the term Krista fascism and it was, you know, a very detailed accounting, some of the things that Catherine described about her own experience. So that was really fun on the enough because that statement is terrible. But you know, it basically starts off in language that sounds kind of nice to draw people in. You know, although you can see where it's going if you're familiar with the subculture, but it ends up very much blaming victims for speaking out about oppressing. It's really quite blatantly racist by the last couple of. Segments in there that you know, maybe they hope people won't read that far or won't care by the time they read that far. It's also, I think, I, I don't know exactly how to assess the significance of it. There's only one person among the main signatories who could even be considered maybe Alastair among today's evangelical, and that would be John MacArthur. And the rest of these guys are like, they're not even close to household names, but they've all blocked about every will come. Some of them did anyway, and very self important ways. They're like you guys fourteen men at a coffee shop and decided that we have to issue a statement on social Justice because there's so much heresy in the church. Oh my gosh. So so yeah, we, if you wanna hear us, go blow by blow. Check out that that episode of kitchen table call to good projects, give it your support. If you can also a lot of us had fun, signing it with Pearl names. I signed the statement as Melissa fallen from Sunnyvale. California, of course, is the fictional city in California Buffy the vampire slayer. There were other fun Dame's. They're like biggest kiss and others, which I probably not pronouncing public, but they seem to have deleted all of those now. Unfortunately. But I think it's just really, it's, it's a self important thing that is not going to get much traction. They're like you guys. We really want to be the next national statement their not the next Nashville statement. The one drafter of the statement is a pastor from Cape coral, bent. My family knows several families who go to church when I showed my mom, the statement until her that Tom ask was one of the drafters. She was like, how is he important enough to. This little tiny, reformed Baptist church, it's it's southern Baptist, but he really spends all this time complaining about this other Baptist convention. Basically they should be like fourth expertise, but they are hung up on baptism. So. It's very, very patriarchal. I don't want to go into personal stories, but yeah, control very control of his daughters courtships and endorse the state daughter movement body Bachman. Who's one of the other? Imagine a little signatory's is described as kind of like the budget, Doug Phillips or budget, Jeff Botkin, who are the big name, stay at home, daughter movement people while Doug Phillips was until he was disgraced because he turned out that he had been sexually abusing his nanny for bunch of years. And so. Yes, these are people who are very, like extremely patriarchal, and then it should come as no surprise. Doug Wilson is is one of the signatories who at sign on who they boosted. His name is let our top people. He wrote the book, southern slavery as it was. It's a pure slavery, apologetic, which he come wrote with one of the board members from league the south, which you might recognize that navy's. They were one of the groups at the night, the right rally in Charlottesville. So that gives you an idea of how white nationalist the people are involved in this. There's another piece of evidence on the the white nationalist front. So there's also this guy, Justin Peters. One of the original signatories was pushing this really, really hard on Twitter and some of us trailed him and it was fun. He, weirdly in the midst of these conversations, suddenly just had this tweet where he was like bragging about knowing this Florida pastor who came to Florida from Africa, and in fact, had been on the police anti-terrorist unit in Rhodesia fighting for white apartheid against Africans. And just in this, Peter's guy, you know, he called him my African American friend in the tweet. So yes, these are super, super racist people. Part of what I do in my day job is I zoom in people and their social media and their other writings and things that they do to develop a picture of their motivation for why they do what they do. And I'm pretty accurate and I can go to your social media and tell you a lot about yourself by that. If you're on the other side of the lawsuit, that probably doesn't make you very happy. But when I'm looking at motivation and I read that statement and I busted out laughing because those should have been names that we all recognize because we do come from the oven Jellicoe communities. We recognize the language in it, but I had to look at the motivation and I realized I was looking at a group of people that were desperate for attention and desperate to seem relevant today. They know they're losing their grip on power. They know that the demographics of this country are changing in a way that no longer favors them. And so they are going to work as far and as hard as they can to hold onto it, and it's going to become more and more extreme. And the only way that we combat that is to make sure that we address that. And we do that because a lot of times especially Justin Peters addresses us as if we were never Christian, never Evan Jellicoe. And yet we come from backgrounds where we could teach exactly what he's teaching. So we know what techniques and tools they use that scares them. And they begin to attack us. That statement is an attack on x. men Jellicoe and it's an attack on anybody who's a person of color. Anybody who is not SIS gendered. Anybody who isn't basically a white male native born American. So we have to make sure that when we see those things coming out in print or on the news that we take the moment to receive. Bond. If it's coming out of of the government officially we respond, we call the White House. We call our representatives. We Email them, we show up at their doors. We make sure that they understand that we are not going away and we are not going to allow their abuses and the patriarchy to continue because that patriarchy hurts not only women but hurts everyone who isn't exactly like them. So the time has come that when we see that we say something and I think they we're all here because that's who we are anyway, isn't it? Go ahead. If Trump does get indicted and he gets kicked out, we have to deal with Pence, which in my opinion is why we all left. You know why we're here today. Do you have any goals or any plans to implement or any strategies that in case this happens that we can stop this besides painting all of our houses rebels. I've got well under the article, two, there is a way that if it's illegitimate presidency that you can also remove everybody that was in office with all the heads of the departments, all the, the vice president, all of it goes down. Now, our best shot is that if we take back the house, the speaker of the house is in line of succession. We know that Pence was part of all of this because he supervised at all, and he knows so we can only have one person at a time that we can actually concentrate on for the moment that's Trump. But next up to the batting cage will be Pence. Once Pence is removed who's next in line, but the speaker of the house. And if we take back the house, that's going to be a democrat. So maybe that's a lofty goal, but I'm working towards that personally. Yeah, I'd like to add that. The kind of work they were just doing to expose the extremism that Pence represents remains important. And if we get to that sort of scenario, we can also remind everyone of the president of Agnew. Right? So Pence should resign. I don't. If they try to sort of force Pence on us, I don't think that he will, but that's some leverage that we can use the put public pressure on him. I mean, also, of course, we've got to hope that he's exposed to be complicit in all these kinds of criminal things that are Sperling around the Trump regime. But I would say that long-term, we have to keep chipping away at simply the kind of glib reporting that you see. So often in the Washington Post and the land that simply seeing their main axiom seems to be, there are no bad Christian groups. There are no Christian groups that are actually important that are incompatible with democracy. We have to change that in order to get people to see why someone like a problem. Speaking would rather that we have to fight Pence than by Trump is I know how to Pete somebody like pants. I know how he thinks. I know how operates, I know is minds that I know how to stop even Gela goals bid some. It's the something that I know inside out. That's one of the reasons why I personally have been speaking out as much as I have and have decided that I'm not keeping anybody's secrets anymore that I don't. They don't me that my I don't know that my silence because. Looking long-term. If we get pets, people need to know now what pences up to, which is one of the things that Chris mentioned, Karen, dark waters, auto straddle piece. That's one of the things that we discussed in. Like the reasons that cured wealth that piece. What's because when it make sure people knew what the actual long term game plan was. And so, yeah, I personally would rather try to stop peds because I know how to stop somebody like that. Take that take that and ask along the panel because I think this is really central to to one of the many one of the benefits of exponential voices and and events like this. Each of you in your own way of sort of talked about how we as people who used to be in this in this community. Now have an ability in number -tunities to act as other interpreters translators for a broader audience at doesn't have this insider experience. And I think that that's extremely valuable. I know Julia in your book, building God's kingdom, you you, you explicitly call that out in that. Evangelicals use the same words, but they have inherently different meanings. So and that that can actually confound or intentionally office gate things for an outsider. So what are the sort of ways that we can continue to do that and continue to elucidate and make clear for a broader audience that what is happening in what is being communicated by Evan joke leaders as well as what's being taught to evangelical populations. On the late. The two together. I think what Chris was really important. We need to recognize that it took them about. Sixty years of work. To get to where they are, and this is a long fight in terms of skills and abilities that you mentioned. I, I personally fails vocation. I spent my twenties working with folks that were doing things at the time seeing right to me, but now seem really, really wrong. And I feel like I had some damage. That I needed to try to do. Do think we should. We need to save of us on the fact that this is a long term battle. We don't have to go to an unlikely scenario of fighting down the line of succession with an impeachment to recognize that might pets on either in four years or eight years is going to be formidable Republican presidential candidate. I think he can. He's got the religious right solidly behind him, and I think that many of those never-trumper types. We'll see his sitting back during this administration as kind of thing of honor. So I think we've got to do with Mike Pence, regardless of what happens with the house of representatives and everything else. All of that is to say there's a broad swath of Americans who support he's folks and it is it's going to take a long term strategy. I guess we getting back to Blake's question. I think we all have to do what we can do. I buy right and speak in blogging, talk. Podcast, people network, people write fiction. I, that's all I know how to do. Just add, you know, talk to journalists whenever possible, cultivate relationships with journalists from different outlets. They reach out to something and it doesn't pan out, reach out to them very every now. And again, because this is how we get on delicate voices represented in the media over time. You know before universally of Newsweek quoted some of us and talked about our significance for the Trump era in Newsweek. I was, you know, occasionally talking to on the phone, emailing with her, I think for a year and a half or so, you know. So. And she was always really on board, and we kind of we had a good report and she considered these issues important. It was looking for a good time to write about it. So the Morgan kind of cultivate those relationships with sympathetic journalists, and those who may be done some hard hitting on even Jellicoe already kind of bucked. The trend that we've seen in the Washington Post and the Atlantic and most of the time in the New York Times to, you know, that's something that those of us who can get access to the media just have to kind of plug away over time and and I think that we should also, you know, support each other's projects and try to help each other, get more publicity for the things that we are doing. So you know, I know there are a lot of books coming down the line. There are some books that have recently been published memos about growing up and even Djelic Liz them. And a lot of this stuff was kind of being started just as individuals and I think it'll be most effective now we really try to support each other as a as a community. So I hope we see more of that going head. I'm just gonna say. Something great that that journalists do. I know I'm biased as a journalism professor to say this, but do you remember when Pence was asked Ken, you discriminate before he was long. This was when he was still governor of Indiana. Can you according to this religious freedom? Bill? Can you discriminate guessing? LGBT person. Oh, who's yours? Don't discriminate. If you can pointedly, ask the question, can you deny service to LGBT person. Asking those direct questions because men right now, like the evangelical colleges, they want their brand. They don't want their brand tainted by this discriminatory logo. So they sugar coat things and. I remember back in the nineties when the southern Baptist church affirmed they had a list of things that they firmed and and they said, one of the things was women wives submit to your husbands and and when the media jumped on that, a lot of their defenders said, but it says, men should lay down their lives for their wives. Men should sacrifice. And and so why are you focusing on this one thing that women should submit to their weapon? So if you look over the great branding that they're trying to do and ask pointed direct questions, then that's a big help. Is to. History. Movement read writes there on history. In. Be no that history, no history on singer Gatien, and they're going to end up rewriting their history on BT issues are going to be their history on other issues in some documenting your own experiences with even with the church is imported because those are first person narratives that historians in the future can use to prove that the history even Gentles are telling in the future isn't what really happened. Actually got into a lot of this because and got my first national attention. When my company college, if used to print my alumni update about my work on brief in the period Windsor, married quality cases. And so I kind of wanted to make sure that it was actually became national story that they refused to do this in the said, they wouldn't put it because they thought it would be giving justification or that it would be giving their support to something they did agree with documented, so that downwind thirty years the road when they try to pretend an old and we was rated, I'll, hey, look at our love nece who went in work from your quality. This is proof that we were on the right side of history that there's documents that that's not what happened. Katherine is far more optimistic than me about them ever actually getting to that point, but but putting that aside, there was something else that I wanted to add, which is that yeah, documenting these stories is important. And if you're the kind of person who is able to do this as you know, someone who can publish free and that's commentary or journalism, we want to get to the underbelly again, not let them to find their own narrative. Not let them decide that, say, only people who count if we're doing journalism about even colleges would be the administrators or the very compliant public faces or professors. So you know, I did a story and investigative piece. I've done more commentary than journalism so far, but I'm starting to do a little more journalism for religion dispatches a couple of years ago in which I tried to expose how even colleges newspapers and how they're cracking down on quoted. David, I quoted Katie pain. His from the night told these stories. And some other stories from some other schools to show that, yeah, they really are very serious about enforcing orthodoxy and they don't want you to know that and they don't want you to things that they, they regularly use nondisclosure agreements to force purge tobacco, the into into silence. You know, someone like David is able to talk about it because he actually got another tenure track job, which is a great. There are a lot of people who have been purged political reasons from even Jellicoe colleges who are bound by indie as, but, you know, ferret out the people who aren't fared out students who are willing to talk about some of these things, retired faculty, whoever you can talk to and tell that other story, the one that they are very actively trying to hide and they are. They also don't want you to know that in many cases. Now when they're doing interviews about new employees, they hire, they ask them what their stances on same sex marriage, and they use that as test or whether someone can get hired or not. So these are the kinds of things that we want to expose to get past the sugar coating. David was talking about. Real quick adding onto that. As buries a human sexuality statement that I read to you earlier that I registered just a line or two from that's not on the actual webpage. You click to a PDF and the point of that is Google isn't searching the PD. So you can't easily see that. They say that their policy is no LGBT people. And those NDA's that I mentioned, the reason they can get away with using those as often tied to severance packages. So people who really don't have choice not to sign them or you know, they're going to be out of a job and not have any financial support. I just want to clarify something. I know that removing Trump in Pence and getting democratic house speaker as president is a long shot. And there are other things to do in the meantime. And I think I should just say that we are each here with a different skill set and a different area of expertise in different experiences. And I think that as a group and as a community, we can use that all together to combat what we're seeing happening here. I do find pets to be far more dangerous because he has the near respectability. He speaks softly and he doesn't really say much. He doesn't really say anything of real substance, but that's to make you feel calm and comfortable. It's to make you feel safe, but it isn't a real safe. It isn't a safe place at all, but we in the x. men, jello community are the ones with the tools. We know the language, we know the tricks of the trade. So we. Can combat him that way. I like to think more legally. So I tend to look at how can I change that policy? How can I change that law? How can I bring attention to that and work from the inside on it? Because I want to make sure that we do not turn into the AUSSIE. I don't want to see a dominion as president because I think that when that happens, we will start to lose a lot of rights. A lot of them will start to be limited where we can work and what we can say, even what we can wear and do on our free time. So I would caution you that if you want a different country, you make sure that Pence gets exposed for who he is and like he pointed out his own statements are Nuff. His own history is enough to sink him if we worked together as a team and do this. I had on that policy front, you know, which is very important. It's not just a national about, oh, we have. We have to win local and state level battles. So don't neglect those, you know, because we do still have this kind of loose American federalism and some states are a lot better than others in terms of protecting people's rates and providing access to health insurance and things like that. So yes, Trump and Pence, and everything happening in Washington is very important, but many of us are more likely to be able to do things about, say, local laws and ordinances. We don't like. A lot of people in this room. But something I hear a lot is that when we first got out of evangelical Christianity, kind of drifted towards the new is a movement of the mid two thousand Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and that at least for me personally, that middle to me the writings and it was part of my deconstruction, but it became apparent over time that none of them had any kind of evangelical or fundamentalist religious extremism background in that when I started meeting people that had a very similar upbringing as being similar experiences, me if it was such a more cathartic experience. But then also they had so much more insight into these issues than Bill Maher. And so I'm curious, from your standpoint, is people that are working on events like this podcast in publications in this field, what the differences are or how you see different portraits? There is one. In this type of field versus what was going on. You know ten fifteen years ago, the new eighty is a movement. I'll speak a little bit. I one of the things that that I mentioned in the brief intro and everything was really that. The thing that really can bind us together is that we have to share background. But I think one of one of the most sort of the central parts to most people's deconstruction in most people's. Most people's current state of belief is a sense of humility in not in rejecting the idea that there's some sort of singular absolute. Theological or philosophical belief, and I think that it that it is important that. The x. men juggle community has cleared, shared values in day affirmed people's personal Tana mate from the BT community. They firm women, those things are table stakes, but regard by it's not. New Christian creed. It's not one that I'm that requires you to maintain a membership in some sort of religious. Expression of any particular individual kind. And to me, that is, that is an essential aspect of this. I think that that it does sometimes creates. Is sort of tension because it can be a pretty big tent. It got people that are that have no interest in religion and some that are still that are still trying to find some satisfaction of some sort through religious answers. And so that sometimes there's not always a level of empathy that can be reached with every single person, but things, especially things like coming from very fundamentalist places or. Just the continual conversation you have with people in our age demographic people coming out of period culture. I mean, that's screws with people no matter what they believe. So I that I think one of the problems with people like Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and their willingness to say a lot about things that they haven't not only haven't lived, but they haven't even studied in detail or even tried to take seriously study from the inside is sort of exactly what's what's wrong with patriarchy and hetero normative general. Obviously don't see it in themselves, but now you've got Sam Harris, embracing Graceland to point out. And honestly, no one should be surprised. So totally over the new easiest. Coming from the home school community actually gotten burned by the new way of world because they kind of treated. Our stories is just something to us to bludgeon religion instead of stories that are valid in themselves for the experiences that we had lived through Eggen piece of broader issue needing to respect the stories of people who who have been even Jogos of fundamentalism home school Katcher because our lives to be either actual like wise we're talking lives we're talking about and it's not just like somebody's entertainment or somebody's talking point. I get them. So some of a lot of homes alone, I got burned early on after lunch comb slows anonymous because we got burned by the way that's the new is figures try to treat our stories. Question. This common cut in the new atheist movement. We see a lot the same stuff that's happening evangelical ISM of this complete denial. The other side is complete debasement of them Ling of them in like an inability inner refusal to come together talk. And I think if anything we're representing change in that, like we all come from very different backgrounds all had the evangelical theme in our lives anything. What a lot of feminism would a lot of LGBT q. queer theory teaches is that like we have to respect the fact that we all came from very, very different places in. We do have all have different skill set that we bring together in fine where we have common ground in new forward from there as opposed to like living in a world of polar opposites all the time. And I think that's the danger is in any movement that you have is becoming a new polar opposite. And I don't think that's what we're trying to do is exponential like. Many of my best friends are still even Jellicoe. I live on a seminary campus with my brother like so it's all about like finding understanding in finding opportunities to express stories into like come together as opposed to just creating a new pendulum swing. And I think that's what I'm seeing here, which is really exciting to find people who aren't about fighting anymore. Speak to that the pendulum swing. You could also bring a little bit of horseshoe there you here and as much as it's really weird the way that right wingers who are Christians anythi have come together on certain things. Look at the new embrace of Jordan Peterson, lobster serotonin. You know or look at how turfs trans exclusionary. Radical feminists are happy to work with the Christian rate to limit the rights transpeople even though the Christian right people would obviously, you know, throw, you know, sort of old school. Second wave feminists under the bus in a heart. They don't care about their rights at all, but they all can transpeople together. No, we kind of, yeah, I guess we probably should get the lunch going because we only have our left in the room. Thank you. You shouldn't be conclude. Part of this. I wouldn't think everybody for for coming today and for all the amazing discussion and commentary, I'd like everyone. My name's HSA host of the exponential podcast. You can find me on Twitter at PR, Chastain confined, find casting where you listen to casts and like everyone to go down the line and sort of what it anything like to plug it or or whatever else. E. Moso on. Dot com. Found is at responsible home, schooling, dot org. We always need your support. Yeah, I'm Chris Stroup. I'm at sea underscore Stroup that's s. t. r. p. on Twitter, my website is crystal dot com. Blog is called not your mission field. I have resources page there for deconstructing or people who come from even Jellicoe backgrounds. I wanna keep expanding it both truly secular and religious kinds of resources for helping people from these backgrounds. I'm about to publish my v article in playboy online only, but you can also find you there and you know, got some commentary journalists around different places. My teacher. You can find me on Twitter as Lilly. One, l l I l y underscore warrior. I have a blog that I've shut down while I'm back in school because eighteen hours of school and forty hours a week doesn't leave me time to do much. I do have a chapter coming out in a book on Christians, Christian women's experiences with divorce inside the Jellicoe church. I don't know where that publication date is, and I don't know what she's titling the book, but I do have a chapter that I've written in there. I will be submitting some devotional for consideration for our bible apt because I'm going to do it from progressive Christian woman's perspective. I am still a Christian, but like I said, I'm probably just a Christ follower at this point because I have nothing else left. I don't want to fight the evangelical church. I wanted to change. David Wheeler. My you can find me on Twitter at Wheeler workshop. I ride a lot for CNN and the Atlantic. I'm working on a satirical movie about what it's like to be a journalist in the Trump era. It's called when I tell people, I'm a journalist, I have the trailer that I would love to show you. My name is Julie Ingersoll. I'm professor of religious studies at the university of north Florida. I can find me on Twitter at Julie, Ingersoll. That's j. e. i. n. g. e. r. s. o. l. l. and from my Twitter page, you can find a webley that will have the courses that I teach the two books that I think might be relevant to the conversation. Here I even jello, Christian. Women were stories in the gender battles, and the second is building, what is it. Can we Joe science? I little bit about what he's doing right now and you know, they're trying to crowd fund. I know this research, this kind of thing that they're doing cross going across the country. So I'd like to plug their gofundme us. Well. However you are comfortable doing it. Hey, my name's John. I'm a journalist author, and just my second book in the Karnali series, which is he's of. Fiction novels about evangelism. Half of the twentieth century. The first one kind of deals with the movement of the seventies. I can see the thing is to kind of show the progression of an evangelical character from birth to doubt to deacon version. Atheism activism and in order to show that. Narrative, I needed to show the parents and kind of where they came from, and that's the first book. And then in the second book that came out of weeks ago, it's about the nineties Christian rock era behind books the industry that was wrapped around this culture and just kind of showing what it's like for this character who is gay and his anti gay preacher discovery his own queer sexuality while he's in the spotlight of this massive movement that I think a lot of us. Wrapped up in and go ahead and in the episode here with this little teaser from Joe science, just I actually going to be coming guests on another episode of vengeful, and you can join us next week here in Chicago at city lit books at six thirty, which will include a reading from Joe sized book. So please check that out. Thanks for listening. Everyone.

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Faith Adjacent: Purity Culture

The Bible Binge

1:10:40 hr | 4 months ago

Faith Adjacent: Purity Culture

"Talk. About. couple. Brigadier. Hello and welcome to faith adjacent a spin off of the Bible Venture podcast where we send up. And Ten. To See if we can get reception in unlikely places, I'm your host. Aaron Moon Resident. Bible scholar on the Bible Bench and this month believing that true love waits I. Make a commitment to God myself my family, my friends, my future mate and my future children to have a frank and fabulous discussion with you about purity culture. Guys Real quick before we start I, just WANNA say like a big ernest heart on my sleeve. Thank you to everyone who was so encouraging about the inaugural episode faith adjacent. Thank you. You shared you listened you engaged in conversation. You left reviews it's just I. I can't tell you what it means to someone. When you're enthusiastic about something that they make. It's it's so weird to put stuff out in the world. So when it has a soft place to land, that's just a very just a very tender mercy. Also just a quick note here we are going to be talking about sex we are going to using anatomically correct terms. There is some adult language it censored, but it is there so I if you're planning on listening with a child or children. I highly recommend just giving it a quick listen through. Before you do so you can decide if you think it's age appropriate. We talked about. Sexual Trauma Sexual Abuse just a lot of different things that I just want you to be prepped on. That's just A. Friendly heads up from your neighborhood Erin Moon. All right. Let's let's go. And as always before we begin, faith is very personal. Everyone brings their own set of lenses and perspectives to anything they encounter in the world, and that includes religion scripture faith I'm coming to every topic from my own Personal Lens and it's hard for me to divorce myself from my own perspective but as much as I can I'm going to do my best to approach all topics with clear eyes? Full hearts can't lose on all sides giving the benefit of the doubt where possible you know. Sometimes, we're going to bring in different people to have a conversation. If if I don't feel like my perspective is enough in this week, we have a special guests and I'm really excited to introduce her to you She's she really enriches the conversation in such an important way. This is spiritual archaeology were doing this together. I Want Journal Review I want additional thoughts. I would love to hear what you have to say about every episode whether that's on social or email whatever This is not a one-sided talk. This is this is a condo. So without further ADO. This month faith adjacent is the Evangelical Purely Culture Movement of the late Twentieth Century Early Twenty First Century. So. What is purity culture? Well, the a really great definition from the Gospel Coalition. We can feel how we WANNA feel about T- juicy but they say that purity culture is the term used for the Evangelical Movement to promote a Biblical view of purity by discouraging dating and promoting virginity before marriage often through the use of tools such as purely pledges symbols such as purity rings and events such as purity balls. And Rosza funny. That sounded until I said it out loud now how am I connected to purity culture? Well, I I mentioned last month that I am a former evangelical out of denominational choice not because I have anything against evangelical although I do have a few bones to pick with them just in general as a former Southern Baptist kid raised in the Southern Baptist Church. I signed my own pledge I read lady in waiting. Passion Impurity I- stating goodbye boundaries in dating all of it I read it all but also like I've mentioned this before I went back and forth on how important those things would be in my life pretty much based on whether or not I was dating someone you know what I mean like I, was very independent. Wasn't dating someone. Not. So much when I was had a James Avery ring on my taxes people know about the James Avery ring with a Hebrew inscription That was my purity is I'm a beloved my beloved is mine I. Will I will push a picture of it on social I wore it until the day I got married. And Look I know some of your like listen we all did that but did you earnestly make your husband read letters that thirteen year old you wrote to him about what you wanted and a husband and how excited you wear that he was your husband even though you didn't know him. Did you do that? If you did the newer me ruining your wedding night when thirteen year old letter at a time I liked the idea of of this. Cumulative event taking place that was like the buildup. Since for what ten years, I eleven, twelve years of waiting for something, and then having the Catharsis of release spoiler. Didn't necessarily happen that way. Now I do want to take just a little bit of time before we jump into this topic, this is an incredibly personal and specific topic person a person I had a few people reach out to me when they heard I was doing this episode and just expressed their hope that I wouldn't take a dump on the good intentions of the Church and I think for some people. That's true like misguided however, like messed up ended up being it came from a place of desiring abundant life for those under leadership. On the other side of the coin however, it can get real dark purity culture was used to hide sexual abuse, sexual trauma lack of accountability, subtly wielding shame as a weapon to overpower maybe mentally emotionally spiritually sexually. So know that even if you had a mild experience like that, you can kind of look back on and laugh about that is not the case for others know that if purity culture was used to abuse you I'm. So sorry. You did not deserve that and if purity culture was ultimately the impetus or part of the reason why you left the church altogether, you are certainly not alone in that. This is a really personal subject. It's very subjective In it affected people so many different ways. But at the end of the day to paraphrase the great poet propaganda, I don't hate the church I just want her to keep her promises. So I want us to be able to learn from past mistakes repetitive them shift focus from outward indicators that mask inward transformations to inward transformations that produce outward indicators. Right. So anytime you hear me quote unquote take a dump. which was a direct quote that someone deemed me please take a church. I'm not taking a dump on the church. I'm taking a dump on a specific subset because sometimes things deserve to be taken a dump upon. I stand by that. All right. So let's get into our very first section the spiritual. Dakota ring when art or culture is not obviously religious. We need to use a specific faith-based Lens by which to view it extracting inherent the allergy and faith from an otherwise secular tax. Now, this is different in that period culture is from a sacred tradition. It's not necessarily a secular text that we have to put a faith-based Lens on, but I think it's helpful to take a look at it under that leads to kind of see like the history. You know can we follow direct scriptural or religious references? What themes moved to the forefront we examined from a specific vantage point. So here's a quick summary of what we're going to do in the section I want to give some context spiritual history of faith and sacks. What's the relationship specifically in Christianity between the two? We're going to talk about what exactly the Bible says about. Purity and sacks what purity culture said the Bible said about period sex and the intentions and implications of what we were taught. We've got a lot of ground to cover. So let's get busy get it. It's going to be lots of that. So she jokes here, some of them are intentional. Some of them are not and you get to decide which ones it's like a cheater adventure. Okay. So let's get into the history of purity culture. Here's the true story faith religion. The church has been obsessed with sex from the beginning like right out of the gate. It's possible that origin who was one of the early church fathers was born around one eighty ad misread attacks from the gospel of Matthew at literally decided to have himself castrated so that he wouldn't be tempted fun fact. There is some question as to if this is true but if it is origin probably regretted it at the end of his life. We probably regretted it right away but his commentary of the passage he says that only an idiot would interpret this passage as in favor of literally cutting off your penis. There's this aspect of the Virgin Mary like Jesus had other siblings but many Catholics believe in her perpetual virginity saying that his brothers and sisters were from Joseph previous marriage Peter Brown. Talks about this concept this double standard in Roman society that really kind of set the tone especially kind of the immediate aftermath of when Jesus was around. This is not Jewish tradition in Roman tradition men were allowed to be unfaithful without consequence as long as the women involved are unmarried but women faced harsh consequences that they were found to be unfaithful. So. What we're looking at like these laws protected the chastity of women. And just allow them to do whatever they want. women were protected solely for the use of men not because they were deserving of protection. We're GONNA see that a lot as a spoiler. And guys even something as small. As a rogue erection change the course of Christianity the Saint Augustine one of the most famous saints that there is his theology treatises are still quoted today he was alive in the four hundred's but he is a church father you hear about his confessions you hear about his writing, you hear about his theology that it's still present within the church structure today when Saint Augusta Must Sixteen. writes that he quote saw the signs of. Virility coming to life, which just means he he got an erection in Roman bath, which I will concede is not ideal but doesn't sound fun You Know Augusta was this really sexually charged teenager he lived an extremely hedonistic lifestyle P. referenced his time in Carthage as quote, the center of a skillet where outrageous love affairs histology round me and he wrote about his constant putrid rutting but the experience that he had in the bath when he was sixteen so etched himself in his mind that twenty years later after his conversion, he adds that story to his autobiography and uses it to Posit the theory that before the Fall Adam could control their sex organs. But Post Fall. Most importantly after eve screwed everything up for everyone we stopped being able to tell her peas vs what to do thus rogue erections disgusting orgasms and the fact that all sexes evil or in the case of husband and wife having sex with sole intention of procreation sexist. Good. But quote, the action is not performed without Evil Augusta labeled this sexual desire the proof of which. Propped up his towel in the Roman baths all those years ago as original send, which is where we this narrative fun fact one of the arguments that his contemporaries made at the time at to Augusta was why would Adam and Eve be able to control their bodies in ways that we are unable to like why would they be able to control their PCs in their vs? With their minds before the fall and a good replied that look guys I've seen tons of people do weird things that I'm not able to do like sweat whenever they want or move their ears or quote produce at will such musical sounds from their behind parentheses without any stink that they seem to be singing from that region end quote guys obviously if people can musically fart. The people can have control over their genitals. Just makes sense. I really love what pastor Nadia Bolts Weber says about this this whole story in her book shameless while many Agustin's teachings have been revered for generations when it comes to his ideas around sex and gender, he took it up and the church in case it an amber instead of realizing this was one guy's personal. We assumed it was straight from God and I think that kind of really encompasses so much about what we're going to see about party culture it's taking so many aspects of scripture and kind of. kind of turning them on their heads kind of assuming a lot of things and we took it be Ospel and I'm not positive that it is entirely Agusan. Aside, we have entire orders of Christianity dedicated to living apart as monks or nuns. One of their defining characteristics is that they do not have sex they do not get married as we know friend of the show, Jerome you know the guy who translated the Latin? Again a lot of MIS translating misinterpreting misrepresenting he misrepresented a parable of Jesus. He told recently converted rich Roman women. If you were married, you get to reap. Harvest of heavenly reward widows who did not get married got a sixty fold virgins. They got one hundred fold fun facts Jerome Thought Marriage was so disgusting when a young childless widow came to ask him if she should remarry, he asked her why she wanted to quote like a dog return to her own vomit as we kind of go through this time, we've gotten Martin Luther aiding and abetting and load of Virginal Horny nuns trying to escape from the convent and then marrying one. You know in purely culture true love waits silver ring thing. These were not the first purity movements. There was also the social purity movement which took place in the late nineteenth century opposed the legalisation and regulation of prostitution in it stemmed from this kind of general moral panic about venereal diseases in prostitution fun fact even have their own pledge that they asked people to sign their one of their leaders. Elise Hopkins she asked him into pledge themselves to respecting women and dismantling hypocrisy in sexual standards fast forward to the ninety s, the ought ceremonies, NER author, virgin nations, talks about how the purity movement was about conservative even goals keeping access to political power and it was young people. Sexually pure young people who could best make that case. So many great books have been written about this. So many great articles I'm going to link them all in the show nuts but they all are kind of making the case that hall of this purity culture stuff stemmed from the sex panic of the eighties we have. HIV. AIDS we have people from the sexual revolution in the sixties starting to have kids these kids starting to grow up. There was this like communal fear for the quote unquote children a reaction to kind of what was seen as the moral decay of America and it spread from there and what's interesting about this is this is really the first time that. Marketers were in charge of like a social movement. So they they had new ideas on how to this taking kind of a page from their enemies in the culture wars and they used sex to sell abstinence and I think the best. The best example of this was this often repeated anecdote of the youth pastor or someone from the pulpit just really going all in on how hot they're married. Sexist it's so good. You'RE GONNA love having real dirty gutter Dede's sex. You know talking about Song of songs how it's the only book of the Bible that needs a parental advisory warning fun fat boy potentially castrated origin was the first person to interpret song of songs as an analogy between God and the church sounds about right from a guy who may or may not have castrated himself. Purely, culture even got this boost from popular celebrities. You had the job rose, Miley Cyrus Selena Gomez Jessica Simpson for. Kevin Jonas claims he was the first to take his purity ring off. I don't know if I buy it. There's a lot of really fascinating stuff about the celebrities who had decided to do appearing purity ring to have appearing to take purity pledge and how they ended up not holding themselves to that standard like a lot of people may mortgage blue author of girlhood on Disney Channel. It has a great little kind of side on about. This family values Christian morality it's especially useful for parents who are attempting to control what their children consume, media and merchandise. Wise. It's got its in this weird like intersection analogy of popular culture and religion because. So many of the taste makers. So many of the consumers happened to Christian. So okay, I think we need to take a step back because what is scriptural about this? What actually does the Bible say about sexual purity? Here's the thing. Purity in scripture isn't necessarily relegated to just sex. In fact, we've taken alive scriptures out of context, interpreting them as meaning sexual purity when they mean a lot more than just that or not that at all purity being pure being impure was a state of being the whole shoeless religious structure was built around moving from impure too pure via sacrificial systems and temple processes. What I think is interesting about. That is that there are a couple of ways this conversation could flourish right so based on conversations I've had with so many of you where it landed most of the time was legalism for all the crowing the late nineties, early outs, church, dead regarding freedom in Christ in grace, we reverted in this particular area to back to like a modern temple sacrificial system. Make a Covenant Break Covenant pay a price. And we're going to really explore what that looked like a lot of people. But. It could also have flourished in this direction of like really nuance inappropriate conversation about the work of Jesus in your life and the reality of being a sole with a body, which is what we should be having about every aspect of culture. So there are lots of different scriptures about purity about sexual purity even know that's the right word anymore but let's take something like I alone salons four three through eight. You know we pull that particular scripture out a lot when we look at remaining sexually pure or remaining a virgin before marriage in a religious sense. What's interesting here is That the learning to control your own body, there's like a weird translation thing here we're using the Greek word vessel and that could mean control your on body, but it could also kind of have an indication of your wife learn to live with your own wife cultivating a wife's favor essentially watering your own grass control, your own vessel where kind of in the sense of to becoming one in marriage fun fact Paul might also be saying to manage your PCP as the could also in some cases be translated as sex organ. The scripture has a lot of big words like what is sanctified. sanctification is becoming more like got or becoming more holy. We talk about this a lot in the Bible bench God was looking for ways to separate the Israelites separate Jews from the rest of the world, and he gave laws and mandates to set them apart. If you go into I Peter two, ten through twelve desires of the flesh, right? We think of. Desires of the flash being solely sexual flesh kind of connotes that what our desires of the flesh won't go to Galicians Five nineteen, twenty, one different author but similar theology says that works of the flesh are, yes. Fortification Impurity sensuousness but also more than that jealousy anger in be drunkenness, idolatry sorcery and lots more again we take that and we focus on. The outer aspects instead of the inner life I think part of this is our disconnect from our bodies. We view faith is like heart matter a mind matter, but we don't often associate our bodies with that. But this is faith in a body and like you're using it to decide what kind of person you want to be. There's a reason why we Get a lot of compass metaphors and spirituality. Your faith should be directing you on how to act because at the end of the day, what you do is partially who you are if your faith is Jesus, Christ than a logical conclusion is that you would wanna live in a manner that he prescribes right moving an intellectual emotional faith into the physical realm. If someone is intensely introverted they can act in a way that supports that, but they can also act in a way that defies that doesn't mean art an introvert when they hype themselves up to make small talk at a party true love waits impurity culture pledges were used as a way to indicate the type of person you were as a Christian but I don't think it was always indicative of anything. Jesus asks you to do kind of became the Occidental. Whitewash tombs doing things on the outside that were meant to be indicative of what we believed on the inside but there wasn't any fortitude to that believe sure there were lots of problems in the church. It's definitely not just purely culture, but by talking to so many of you over the past few weeks, it seems like purity culture was a real impetus for destruction for many but was found to be so hollow the reconstruction didn't even seem worth the effort. And of course, that's just some of scripture not all of it. Then they're also the extra biblical sources I casting by which we're going to go into a lot in a minute lady-in-waiting Elliott. I WANNA re just a little bit of what was so impactful about passion impurity for me and how it kind of formed. A lot of my thinking Elizabeth says quote I assume that those men so men with principal will also be looking for women with principal. I did not want to be among the marked down goods on the bargain table cheap because they'd been pod over crowds collect there. It was only few who will pay full price you get what you pay for. What, and then my favorite quote men like mystery the don't want to be told everything women think and for what it's worth I think that kind of teaching those kinds of lessons that kind of rhetoric within this discussion made this Frankenstein's monster like we created something it came to life and then it turned on us. I think now that we're starting to come out of purity culture and now so many of us who grew up in that are adults. Now we're looking at our kids are nieces or nephews just even ourselves and going. Okay, that was weird. What what did it do to us? There's this aspect of the PHARISAICAL. legalism we talked about that just this like very carefully. It feels almost like Leviticus right? Like you've gotTa have the right color, heffer you've got to make sure that you take it on this day, and the priest is GonNa burn it on this day, and there's going to be all of these regulations. I can touch the penis, but I put it in the like I. Can. I can't look at porn but I, can I look Victoria's secret catalogs the all of these things close. But not all the way. How far is too far it left no room for wisdom. It left no room for nuance that was just a checklist right? You know it turned this into a kind of spiritual obstacle course for holiness. You've got this battle warling which guard your heart, every man's battle, take every hurt captive all of this like braveheart kind of thing. So that's what's happening like while we were in it right and I WanNa talk about intentions here you know Mary on the run she left a great comment on our instagram post about this. She says I see a Lotta people saying that purity culture had good intentions or is rooted in something good. Maybe this spicy but I think it's rooted in the Patriarchy and the commoditisation of women's bodies as a means of control. The church cares way too much about any sense that our individual largely harmless choices and not enough about huge and systemic degradation of entire populations. I agree with this assessment I also think to a certain extent. It wasn't intentional not the part about the stomach degradation of entire populations I think that can one hundred percent be true in some communities but the Patriarchy Oh yeah like we talked a little bit about this in the what's up with women in the Bible Bible Scholar for Bible Bench Patriot on. And I talked about how Caroline Custos James Her observation about how the Patriarchy is not the message of the Bible right it's the backdrop. You can't fully understand the Bible if you don't start by putting it in its cultural context, that context will help to inform. So do I think that when my twenty one year old is apple ship teacher huddled us around lady-in-waiting that she was purposefully perpetuating unhealthy message of oppression no, I think she genuinely thought this was a way to abundant life regarding my sexuality I, think she may have been mistaken but. I don't think she was like an active tool of oppression. There is so much that is so deeply embedded in us that we can sometimes be tools of oppression without even realizing it. That's why it's always important to remember to listen to the marginalized to listen to the people who are not empower especially as the church because if we don't do that, we're going to keep perpetuating systems and resources and structures that are not only unhealthy but are going to turn people away from the Gospel which is exactly what purity culture did him some cases So I know that how we experienced purity culture very significantly from person to person and I do not want to make light of a heavy burden that someone else's carrying however for me as ill considered a misdirected as purely culture ended up being I think some of it came from that place of care, of love and I am grateful for that. It is so easy to criticize those who were leading us during that time and to be fair some of that is warranted some of our elders abused at the system and they don't get off the hook here. But I'm talking about not deeply evil people who twisted a well-intentioned but deeply flawed structure talking about your average youth minister trying to do what seemed to turn students toward. GROWNUPS that were scared of STD's and wanted to protect their children. They were trying to improve upon places where their leaders failed them when they were growing up Houston talking about sex. So purity culture with all of his faults was progress and I think we can at least give a great of e for effort here while honoring their spirit of making it better more nuanced, more expansive and free from shame for the next generation. This podcast is sponsored by faithful counseling. Is there something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals? I know personally between all the pandemic and politics talk it's hard to not feel overwhelmed all the time. 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So you won't ever have to sit in an uncomfortable waiting room as with traditional therapy plus you log into your account anytime and send a message to your counselor. Also more affordable than traditional offline counseling and financial aid is available faithful counseling. Once you start living a happier life today visit faithful counseling dot Com Slash Bible Bench. To join the over five, hundred thousand people charged of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional, and they have a special offer for bobble bench listeners get ten percent off your first month at faithful counseling com. bobble bench. That's ten percent off at faithful counseling, dot, com Slash Bible bench, and now back to the show. So let's move onto our second section the red thread bored. It's easy to dump on purely culture and I. Think it's important that we look at the conversation with a critical eye. But of course, it's not always entirely black and white. So let's go deeper. What can we excavate from the margins from the footnotes from the conversation around the conversation about party culture in this section called the Red Thread Board I. Hope to step into an archaeological dig of our subject to brush away the first layer and get intense in. Weird. And listen there are so many red threads. We could really spend a lot of time unpacking and maybe at some point, we'll do a part to purely culture where we can send up our antenna in some of these places, things like singleness how purity culture changes the way we disassociated from our bodies consent just more very specific threads that we could go on, but we just don't have. Time unfortunately. So in this section, we're going to look at the fallout of purity culture. How did it affect us our threads are what purity culture got right. The legacy of purity culture poster boy Joshua Harris ran talk about the patriarchy talk about how purity culture aided and abetted sexual abuse, the role of shame and how it's counterintuitive to the Gospel and also the spiritual fallout appeared culture. Let's get this thread. So. Let's talk about our first thread. What do purity culture get right? I'M GONNA spoil it for you not a ton but I was watching a true love waits documentary from wife Way Christian resources true. Love waits. was there kind of purity curriculum that was the version that you did if you are southern Baptist and it was talking about how? Yes. Here all the way is that true love waits impacted. Places like the United States. But I was unaware of how it impacted places like Uganda. You're talking about a place that in the early nineties, thirty percent of the population was diagnosed with HIV AIDS and after the sexual abstinence campaign curriculum came to Uganda that number dropped to ten percent around two, thousand, six and true love waits is credited as the reason why this happened from government leaders in some HIV AIDS activists that it really changed a lot for that country not only that there is a need for biblical sexual ethic I mentioned this earlier. But like this was progress and your faith should inform your sexual ethic, the church should be talking about ignoring it isn't helpful. So at the very least this propelled us into a conversation I. Just think we have to change the topics and that leads us to our. Second Thread which is the poster boy for purity. Culture. Joshua Harris I'm not trying to like put undue pressure. He doesn't know me I don't know him I'm not trying to judge him or his life. He became the figurehead, right? Like why focus on one person? It's the problem of being a twenty year old being the voice and the face of purity culture. Your brain is not fully developed. He's the ceremonial head. Of this whole movement and I think he's also a representative of the fallout. That's why I kind of want to look at him as a case study. Joshua Harris was a part of maybe the first celebrity homeschool family ever His parents were among those who really launched the Christian home schooling movement. When Joshua was seventeen, he actually published his own magazine for. Called new attitude fun fact you can still find a few of these articles from a new attitudes on the Internet just a few of the titles and their descriptions are perfect family phobia. Your family does not need to be perfect to be fantastic Mrs Hemingway's bank. What does it mean to be a GROWNUP ERNEST? Hemingway's mother gives some insight. And my favorite take me out to the curriculum fair, Joshua Harris tells us what he learned standing in line at all those homeschool curriculum fares. He was speaking at conferences giving seminars. He was started this like walking billboard for Christian home schooling success. When you go back and you watch old videos of Joshua Harris doing these conferences, you can see that he looks nerdy but he he kind of made it. Cool. There was a young person. It wasn't just your old pastor that smelled like worthy telling you that sex's beautiful with his wife who you know brings Broccoli Salad to the church potlucks like Joshua Harris was this proof of. Concept for so many evangelical leaders just look at what can happen if you do it the right way, and then he wrote what is considered to be the source taxed for purely culture a book called I kissed dating. Goodbye the concept of this book was that secular dating did not work if you wanted the end goal to be a godly marriage and he proposed the idea of courting, which includes like parental consent to spending time together and the man pursuing the woman with the sole intention and point of marrying her this book sold over one point, two, million copies the first four year of its publishing everyone read this. It was it was everywhere. I can't even tell you how pervasive it was. We were all reading this book. We were all doing bobble studies around this book. We were all talking about this bug. It created an entire subculture It was such a big deal in this world. Now in two thousand, seven Josh Harris indicated that he was starting to kind of like regret. The way that I can say goodbye was used he said people have taken the message of Ikea stating goodbye made it into something legalistic a set of rules that something beyond my control and it's disappointing at times and listen not all I cus dating buys bad. There's this one section that talks about like don't concern yourself with being right and others is don't secretly hope that their lives will fall apart so that your. Opinion will be vindicated instead concentrate on obeying God in your own life and when possible helping others to obey him as well. You don't have to prove others wrong to continue on the course you know God has shown you and that that's still preaches quite frankly but some of it is so bad and while it's probably not intentional, we know that we can be used as tools of oppression without even knowing it. It's at the very least very thoughtless benevolent sexism, which is like sexism framed as good for women. Women as property belonging to their parents, this book was used as a weapon. It was used as a legalistic taxed especially considering the fact that Joshua Harris had never even been in a relationship courting or otherwise when he wrote this book now in Two Thousand Sixteen, he really started to change. He really began to examine what the book had done to generation of even calls. He's I think it's really easy for Christians to take truths from God's and principles, and then in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways at extra human regulation to it. We have God's word, but then it's so easy to add all this other stuff to protect people to control people to make sure that you don't get anywhere. Near that place where you could go off course and isn't that exactly what we've seen with our historical reference to Augusta in two thousand eighteen Joshua Harris issued apologies, and publicly disavowed I kissed dating a by and made an agreement with his publishers to not reprint the book after they sold through the current stock. He appeared in documentary called I survived. I stating goodbye and at one point they make him sit and just listen to video chats from people all over the world who just make him sit there and account for being the face of purity culture. Some of them are like this book changed my life and a great way and some of them were like I'm still really angry with you. This was really bad He apologizes said to those who read my book and we're misdirected unhelpfully influenced by I am sincerely. Sorry. And it's again going back to this this concept of having ideas. So deeply embedded in us that we can become tools of oppression without even realizing it in two thousand, nineteen Joshua Harris announced his separation from his wife Shannon and also renounced his faith in Jesus I'm he did us in an instagram post and he said by all the measurements that I have for defining a Christian I'm not a Christian he apologized to. The LGBTQ community? I. WanNa say I'm sorry for the views I taught in my books and as a pastor regarding sexuality I regret standing against marriage equality for not affirming you and your place in the church, and for any ways that my writing and speaking contributed to a culture of exclusion and bigotry I. Hope you can forgive me and there's a divided reaction to this like some people are offering forgiveness and grace some finding the damage he did to be more. Permanent and unable or unwilling, or just not ready to offer forgiveness. Now, we've seen this full line play out the idea of Joshua Harris as proof of concept two point. Now, Joshua Harris became a harbinger of where you could go. If you saved yourself for marriage, you could successfully court a woman Mary her children have a successful life pastoring a church how this lovely life. But as the experiment keeps going, we see him as an icon for. What so many nineties, an odds evangelical kids are walking through a deconstruction of faith a total disavowal of faith divorce cutting ties with the church. So I, think the question is what ended up being the concept that he proved and this is not a judgment against him but I think the concept that he proved was that we replaced authentic life in God with a rulebook and then we were all surprised when it didn't hold up to real life. I think we see a lot of this with our third thread, which is the Patriarchy about how you know again, this idea from caroline custody James About Patriarchy being the backdrop of the Bible guys were still in that and you can't. You can't look at purity culture without the backdrop of the patriarchy. It's an extension of the Patriarchy and what it said two guys and girls, and just pretty much how it breaks down the entire fabric of the church. So. Let's start with girls. What did the Patriarchy tell girls through the lens of Purity Culture for of all women as dealers of sin women are the originals centers. You know a Guston was the one who really popularized co defied this narrative of Eve as the tempters into Christianity she was the one who lured Adam women are the reason for the set of men. That's what we were told. We were told we are responsible for the conduct a boys. You know in a lot of this was given Biblical language right. So there's the of the stumbling block. You know you women girls based on what you're wearing or how you're acting or what makeup you're wearing. You could be a stumbling block for your brother in Christ well, the stumbling block metaphor is used in scripture to describe Jesus it's never associated with sex or lust or orson except to say that Jesus was a stumbling block for the religious leaders because they didn't know what to do with him. Calling girl wearing shorts that you think might be too short. A stumbling block is not a faithful exegesis of the text. It's but it's not a far jumped twist that and that's what the Patriarchy does. They twist things just a little bit in to make it seem like it could be truthful and there's this idea of turning scripture on its head to turn verses about bearing one another's burdens and loving your neighbor and all of us being a part of the body of Christ and minimizing it into don't wear Spaghetti straps. Because your shoulders are inherently sexual and IT Causes Your Brothers in Christ to lust after you and scripture says to count others more significant than ourselves. This is why thoughtful biblical interpretation and wisdom is important. We are called to bear one another's burdens. We are all a part of the body of Christ, but what does that have anything to do with two piece bathing suits I just I don't think, but it does girls were also held to a higher standard about their. Sexual Intelligence Post wedding. It was this idea of like we had to embody the ludicrous hook in usher's yeah. They WANNA lady in the street but a freak in the bed there are exactly zero things knew about this duality from time immemorial women have been asked to fit into two categories sexual deviant or pure virgin but purity culture. They want you to jump through another hoop because they ask you to be both on a very specific time line and if you can't. Figure it out. Well, that's probably because you were too sexual or not sexual enough at the correct times and here's hoping you can figure it out because if not, you're gonNA push your husband into the arms of someone who can fulfill his sexual needs and it will have been your fault. You'll probably get a divorce it'll be justified because you didn't perform the impromptu balancing act the way you're supposed to even though no one was there to help you or support you. And, that leads us to this idea that Caitlin Bady Coin, the Sexual Prosperity Gospel where you are promised, girls were promised and men were promised. Essentially, divorce proof marriage hot married sex good job Greg Godly spouse, and when it when there was no way. There was no way purity culture could have fulfilled. Those promises it led to an idolization of marriage replacing. With God for the future promise of marriage and guess what always falls short anything that has to do with other humans, and it also diminishes marriage to just the sexual aspect. one listener described this as believing that the primary purpose for marriage was having sex and that was it. So now let's talk about what it did to the boys because the Patriarchy doesn't just hurt women it also hurts boys, men guys there was this insane focus on pornography and masturbation now listen I, think pornography is. A scourge. So you're not GonNa hear me defend pornography but a lot of emails that I got from listeners especially dude listeners were this literally all we talked about and we all still did it anyway and it really changed the way men viewed women I again I had so many emails from listeners on this exact thing. It made them judgmental. They looked down on girls who dressed a certain way who weren't modest in a certain way that they had been taught they were shamed. They felt shame for the way that they had feelings for women or the ways that they viewed women they were conditioned to see women as solely tools for sex one nurse emailed me to say that he blames this conditioning impart for his sexuality saying it was he was so habituated to never look at a woman sexually number to think of them in a sexual light that he literally could never do it. Not only did it did it put this insane focus on pornography masturbation? It changed the way they viewed women. The guilt. That men felt and that this is not exclusive to men but guilt but it was just constant and I i. think it's important because I think for me so many women that I spoke to you were like it was so unduly put upon the woman and we just didn't realize what it was doing to the guys and so I I want I wanNA share these these stories because I want you to know that it hurt them just as. Badly as her you, they had guilt for being alone with a woman guild for thinking about women guilt for having natural sexual desires guilt for failing themselves for failing their future wives for disappointing their future children one listener described this as guilt for the ways I viewed women, but also guilt in how I blamed them for making me view them that way, and then the patriarchy also talks about how you know men are the leaders there undeniable leaders. But except in this area minner Farrell there while animals when it comes to sex, they cannot be trusted but also you need to submit their leadership because God ordained them. They cannot control themselves you to do it for them and a lot of that leads to unchecked power. And absolved abuses that were not repented for and repaired, and that leads us to our fourth thread, which is sexual abuse and trauma. Here's here's the thing guys biblical community works when there's no power structure. But when predators invade, it's easy. We keep seeing this over and over again it's so easy to twist biblical community specifically here into a coven of secrecy and hidden said, that is exactly how we got the religious version of the Hashtag metoo movement, Hashtag. Church two and a horrific list of atrocities committed by people empower over people who are vulnerable and who trusted them listen even if you weren't sexually abused within the church, imagine what it was like to hear sermons and breakout sessions and Bible studies about how you are no longer pure and you don't. Even get a choice in it. You are irrevocably broken and you weren't even able to consent to it. It's not only exclusive. It's re traumatizing people in place that should be doing the opposite. Linda Kate client talks about this impure. She says generally speaking purely culture excuses male sexuality and amplifies female sexuality, and it shames consensual sexual activity and silences nonconsensual sexual activity in all of the failures of the Church and the Purity Movement for me. This has to be the most egregious where the church should have been a haven from that even on such a basic level as to feel safe it failed and we will be repenting. And trying to offer reparations for as far as I can see and included in this trauma in this sexual abuse and trauma threat is lgbtq trauma on top of the shame that has already taught impurity culture. The shame that was placed upon lgbtq teenagers. One of the emails that I got from a listener says it was so compounded that I did not feel. Safe to ever process through what I was experiencing. He was told he was so dirty. So damaged the culture, that's what the culture told us that he didn't feel safe to talk about his sexuality until he was twenty one a six years ago we have done such a a disservice to all of these children and they are now adults they are living in shame. And that's The v Thread I wanNA talk first about how shame is counterintuitive to the Gospel I Corinthians seven tenths as godly grief produces repentance that leads to salvation without regret. This is a self perpetuating cycle right sex outside of marriage, not only sex, but all sexual thoughts or feelings or actions is shameful. So we set up rules about courtship or pledges or accountability groups we blow it we inevitably blow it. Now we experienced shame about the missed goals of. Our structure meant to keep us from being ashamed and that is also shameful. No wonder we are mess research shows that people tend to shame others for what they are ashamed of not one bit shame as Biblical guilt is different godly grief. Godly guilt is different than shame. The shame aspect really crosses over with our final thread, which is the spiritual fallout to all of this I want to read a portion of an email that I got from a listener. That I think really paints the picture of what purity culture did to a generation of people. Once, I started dating, it became obvious to me that our parents didn't care what I did with a girl as long as my penis didn't into her vagina that level of hypocrisy stuck with me for years after I left my parents house and when I eventually walked away from the church altogether in my late twenties, they were so preoccupied with what people did in their bedrooms while not seeming to give. Anything else going on in a teenagers life, mental disorders, chemical dependencies, the media we consumed, it was all penis of China. Here's the issue we tried to take something extremely and monumentally powerful the gospel of Jesus Christ a radical doctrine at expansive grace and inclusive mercy and shove it into a very tiny box. We measured godliness and holiness by one measuring stick. have. You had sex before marriage. In truth, we took a sliver of the value system that comes with Jesus and we stuck it in the microwave where it exploded the way we can look at having a biblical sexual ethic is what about the gospel of Jesus impacts this area of my life? How do the words and life of Jesus? Change how I view my own sexual ethics keep going back to the story of the woman caught in adultery. Shame. Propels those who caught her to publicly bring her to Jesus for judgment shame propelled them to leave the man behind time and time again, Jesus focuses on grace to those who are marginalized and accountability to those empower. Jesus reminds us that the consequences of ignoring the planks in our own is while being morally indignant about the speck of dust in the eyes of others. This is a literal reading of his words. I love what Jesus does in the story. It's so mysterious. It says Jesus bent down and wrote with his fingers in the dirt they kept add him badgering him. He straightened up and said the Senlis. One among you go. I. Throw the first stone and the only one who was there with him. Bending down. He wrote some more in the dirt. We don't know what Jesus wrote in the dirt could have been. The Ten commandments could have been a list of the personal hidden sins of each of the other men in front of him but whatever it was. He was the only one with the qualifications to throw the stone and he didn't do it and with faced with that reality faced with the fact that they were sinful just like everyone else. They left and he said, I do not condemn you. Go and say no more. All of this makes me think of hammers right away is a tool that can change its purpose based on the person who's holding it. It can be used to build up or create. It can also be used as a weapon to destroy or hurt and guess what we're holding the hammer now, and we get to choose what to do with it. Are We going to use the Gospel Destroy? And hurt others or are we going to use it to build and create? Are we going to use it as ammunition or are we going to use it to extend as an invitation to work out the muscles the wisdom to entering into abundant life to welcome others in into a radical relationship with God and that I think is the best thing that we can give the generation behind us. and. Now for a quick break to talk about one of our sponsors, the Bible binge seminary join more than seventeen hundred of your fellow listeners in our Patriot community. For exclusive content. You won't get anywhere else early access to all the classic Bobble of in jeopardy, which are also add free on patriots. You get expanded gentle rebukes, Bible scholar as where Aaron Answers, your burning questions about the Bible and a monthly edition of our movie deep Dive Series Sacred Cinema we've also started the faith adjacent put club all this extra content for only five dollars. Someone seminary does not have to be boring come learn more at the Bible, bench, Dot Com. Slash. Patriots. And now back to the show. All right now, it's time for the mailbag section. Listen in places where my perspective experience isn't enough. I am really excited to call in people who are more knowledgeable and this month. I am so excited to welcome very first gas debbie Abraham is a writer, a thinker podcast she hosts the podcast. Where do we go from here which is a weekly podcast that untangle sexual ethics for a new generation of Christians are I debbie let's make like Karl Malone and get some mail. Oh, I'm so excited I'm so happy to be here. So, before we jump in here to the Mail W, I would love for you to just sort of introduce yourself to the listeners and kind of give us a little bit background your history with purity culture. Yes. So I'm born in nineteen eighty two and I was born too. So I'm Sri Lankan add that's my ethnicity but my parents became missionaries when I was two years old and so they moved to Northwest Arkansas for a year and a half to get there sort of theological trae. Yes. Fable. Arkansas where they woke up on Saturday mornings and my dad would take care of us. My mom listened to focus on the family with James Dobson and took notes on parenting. My subculture was missionary kid subculture. So we had everything. So my mom read me preparing for adolescents by James Dobson in what I was in grade six that was kind of my sex ed I think I would say how purity culture was actually delivered to me in some ways was it captured my imagination with this romantic very romantic fantasy of you do this and then you do this and then you meet a guy, you'll get married. You'll have your first kiss at the alter and you'll live happily ever after. The Christie Miller series by Robin Jones Gunn. I. Think that was in some ways the most powerful thing for me because it's todd running down the beach. His. Blue I don't know. What it did was it captured your imagination with this story. And and that story sounds great I. wanted that how do you think all of that like that base level education? How did that? To you as an adult one of the things I've realize now as an adult purity culture was very much a group of people trying to rescue the American nuclear white family from the impacts of sixties seventies, social change play by my magazine and Roe v Wade are kind of the bookends of twenty years of dramatic cultural upheaval. I was in this subculture as a person who was not white and because of that I knew that the system never worked for me and I knew that I knew that instinctively as a teenager even though I did not rebel against it. So because of that, there was always a sort of questioning I had But if you're not fully part of the system in a way that benefits you you start to wonder about the system itself, I would love to know how you think the history of purity culture really defines our current quote unquote. Christian sexual ethics is the fact that we're so messy in this because of the way we grew up the reality is that I think when Joshua Harris announced that he was getting a divorce that was the moment when people looked around and went this house that they built in the eighties and nineties true love. Waits House. It's burnt down an out of the numbers is you know Jerry Falwell junior with his pants. zipped, building a glass of black water walking out of it. So I feel like that purity culture of old doesn't exist anymore. No books have kind of penetrated the market no pun intended. Ways I kissed dating goodbye but nothing is kind of impacted in the way that this. In the eighties and nineties, it was rituals and people marking a threshold in adolescence life in a way that was needed. But what purity culture gave them was some powerful symbols to hold onto and we need symbols. I think we are in a somewhat chaotic moment so I don't think the message has changed in E. Essential. Evangelical Theology has stayed the same at say the conversation around assault and METOO. But I think also the reality that the message of purity culture and how it was delivered in particular to women had a level of trauma involved in it. I think that's another thing that is part of this conversation now, but no one has brought a unifying clarifying message to the table. So we got some really excellent questions from listeners on this topic and I think that you are the perfect person to help us answer some of them. So i. think that's true. So this is the first one is from page to souffle. She says, I think most of US know purity culture is absolute garbage but how do we move forward and sexual ethics for ourselves and for our children? Right, so I, think I will just say I am not a parenting expert and I am not. Or Council and both yes. same girl at so I think both of those groups of people are worth consulting on this topic the the number one thing for me is I need to get myself to a place where I can talk about this in a place of neutrality. So without talking about it from a place of personal shame or personal pride, I think both can be devastating and this is the thing I've learned over and over again, we were taught a lot of things explicitly in the Church that we can go that ticks the boxes. That's actually in the Bible. Let's say explicit stuff on what matters regarding money. And greed and power and all these things. But what was implied is that you can get everything right? You mess up in the sex department that's it for you. I don't think people realize that that is what they were implying and we do not realize what we are implying as much as I want to be informing my kids and giving them something better than I think what I was given I need to know that there are implicit values that they are picking up in my home that I don't know what those things are. So one day they're gonNA turn around and give that to me they're going to tell me. I don't care what you said about this this this and this this is what I know from my live. Oh. Okay so I think we need a heavy dose of humility in our lives as we navigate this as people moving forward humility is our safeguard I think. and then I think I would also say listening to Christian people in the queer community has for me rounded out an understanding of my sexuality. In a way that I did not have before they bring something to the table some things that I truly just never heard of in particular as how it relates to celibacy. So I'm relying here of course on people who are non affirming, but I will say like affirming people have amazing things to say about human sexuality as well. So I think in some ways, the text if you want to books to sit side by side as I do in my life where I will 'cause Rachel welches book hasn't come out yet. Welsh has a book coming out in November called talking back to purity culture. And Matthias Roberts book beyond shame. I. Think they're the best guides for the conversation. So Rachel's coming at it from a conservative traditional sexual ethic Matthias is coming from progressive affirming sexual ethic and you will find something out of these two books that I think is a way forward I think that's important and we talk about that I'm on the Bible Bench. So often about how it's so important to if you come to a passage, you find to be confusing or you find to be tricky how A. Great Way to kind of help yourself in that out into understand it better as to look at it in different translations and I. think that's kind of what you're speaking to hear like listening to different voices talking about the same thing and kind of a not just not just solidifying yourself in an echo chamber where you're saying I can't learn anything from this person because they're too conservative or I can't learn anything from this person because they're to progressive it's almost like your own little board of directors. Helping, you sort they out with different different viewpoints. The most powerful thing that that purity culture leveraged was fear. that. was their currency. If you come to the table of sexual conversation of sexual ethics with that fear motivating you, there's always going to be a distortion and you know what fear that you're going to get it wrong is still fear. Fear that your kids are going to become bigots is still fear. So think you can go in the progressive. You can run in the Progressive Direction motivated out of fear or you can run in a conservative direction motivated out of fear and it's still fear running the show. And it will still not yields good fruit, and so I think one of the ways of neutralize that fear is to open yourself up to new ideas to say actually I must secure human being I can handle reading about a progressive or Conservative sexual ethic because I'm good I'm okay. Okay. I'm learning I'm I'm engaging in the conversation as opposed to just shutting yourself down. Yeah I. think that's really why I'm next question from. Gina Boyer and she says I value the idea and ethos behind security culture. But there was no messaging handed to me that imagined a world where any of us would stay single past the age of twenty five. What does holistic purity look like when there's no quote unquote finish line of marriage and I think we got some version of this a lot like my genita- wet she was saying not everyone is called to marry. And what is that like what is what is you know purity or holiness look like when you're single and you don't WanNa get married or you do WanNa get married but you're not married I'd I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts on that I think we need a better vision for Christian life that is true to the Bible. So not a hierarchy in the church where the top is married with kids. So if you're in a church that says. Marriage with kids, and of of course, they're never saying this, it is implied i. Eight who they invite to speak to women, it's implied in how they structure the way church community exists. And if at the top of that are married people with kids, get yourself different church and a different community because that is not a biblical vision for life, I would say if you're a single person. Look for communities that value and prize the input of single people in their church life or Christian community life who value you as a human who celebrate the milestone in your life like when you buy a house when you get a job who celebrate those things I don't see you some sort of perpetual holding pattern for marriage I like what you said about a clearer or I think you said a better vision for Christian life and I just feel like that could apply to all aspects on. Nag Not just sexuality not just you know this kind of holdover culture I. I really liked that I I want to marinate on that I still have one more question. And this is from my beloved Radio Mayfield who I just really want to be friends with she asked what the actual hell does. Purity culture mean in the age of Jerry Falwell Juniors look I, don't think Jerry Falwell, junior had much of an influence on your everyday evangelical. So I think what's happened with him and let's say what is happening with him I don't think that stories done yet. We're not done yet. We've not hit the bottom of the barrel. Right and so I think what he is is he is a representative of the whitewashed tomb is purity culture. That is, let's say this on the outside and we are doing something very different behind the scenes when you think about who delivered the Christian message to you. That you hold onto that you think this is real. My aunt teacher in Sri Lanka sitting in the car with me encouraging me. No one's GONNA. Know Her name. I think about farmers in Arkansas who loved God and who invited me into their life and who were a testimony of who got is it's all of these incredible. Christian. People who modeled for me what Christian life actually looks like Jerry Falwell. Junior hold a candle to these people. Yeah. So it's also dismantling these celebrity Christian archetypes who have something going for them in that we want a vision of the life that they have and part of that is economic prosperity because it's the American dream. It's this American dream and it's because it is so distinctly American a big part of that is the fame fortune. Influence power piece those other things that make it uniquely American I've lived in five different countries for over two years and just trust me on this. It's American. Bring. Back Boring bring back those everyday. Christian. People in your pews who are never going to write a book Never GonNa talk about this stuff in public but they're going to have a conversation with you over twenty years of your life that will change you. Yeah I think that's the antidote to this weird celebrity American thing. This has been so much fun to chat with you and just hear your wisdom. And listen to you share it with everyone you guys don't follow Debbie I. I, highly recommend you listen to her show. You can find her show at where do we go pod DOT COM sh there on twitter and instagram from at where we go pod, you can also follow Debbie on Instagram at Debbie, score rights. Thank you so much for being with us today Debbie appreciate it. It's a pleasure. Okay guys before we go, I would like to offer a Benediction This is this was the tricky benediction to write because so much of this is embedded with shame but my hope is that the benediction will begin the process of releasing new if that hasn't already happened. Believing that are worth is not tied to our bodies. May We instead pledged to resist trusting a story narrated by shame? Where we perpetuated ally, may we desire repentance? Where we hurt the vulnerable may we beg forgiveness? Where we watered down the deep love of God where we manipulated scripture, are we subjected ourselves and others to untruths instead of following the lead of love? May We turn around and walk the other way? May We invite others along with us. May. We mourn with those who mourn. Maybe hold silence and space for those who hurt. May We, fight for them. We offer and accept forgiveness. May, we learn to separate God's love and people's humanity. We never again settle for a cheap and spiritual checklist when we have an invitation to life. May We exchange shame for the abiding love of Christ. And may we emulate him? WHO DOES NOT CONDEMN But speaks tenderly to our most hidden fears. A man. All right guys that's when to do it for this episode of faith adjacent don't forget to check out the show notes for additional resources as well as everything we went through here on the show. This episode would not be possible without the help of Debbie Abraham Travis, Hawkins Cristiana, Hill, and the hundreds of emails, comments, and DM's. We got sharing the stories of your experiences with period culture here at the Jason I'm always open ideas on what you want. To explore the faith-based Lens. So pleats mean email at hello faith adjacent dot com with any suggestions you like to have considered. I'm your host Eric Moon and you can find me on social at ear h moon. You can order my ten day devotional comfortable words at Perrin H Moon Dot Com. You can follow the Bible then John Socials at the Bible Bench and I will see you next month until then I. Hope you see God in weird places. And, it's like you're looking at him and you know you're a nerd like you're. You WanNa. Talk to me about. homeschool conventions but like he's kind of pulling it off. is kind of pulling it off. I don't know. This. Weird. It went blank. It goes under the password. This went Roth. Okay I. got it. SIP Augusta. No it is. It's also Augustine. So people are going to be. Here, come the NERDS. I felt super betrayed by Elizabeth Elliott right now just like. Dang. Dang girl.

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Report: 700 victims of Southern Baptist sexual abuse

The Daily Article

05:36 min | 2 years ago

Report: 700 victims of Southern Baptist sexual abuse

"Report seven hundred victims of southern Baptist sexual abuse. This is Jim Dennison's daily article for Monday, February eleventh twenty nineteen I'm writing this morning's daily article with a grieving heart. I became a Christian in a southern Baptist Sunday school class and was baptized in a southern Baptist church. I was licensed and ordained as vocational minister in that church. I tended college at Texas Baptist university in graduate school at a southern Baptist. Seminary I taught on that souvenirs faculty and pastor four churches affiliated in various ways with the southern Baptist convention Southern Baptists. Support nearly nine thousand missionaries around the world are training more than twenty two thousand seminary students served more than two point nine million meals last year to those in need in assist. Those in crisis with practical compassion, God has used Southern Baptists to share the gospel with multiplied millions of people around the world. And so this story in yesterday's Houston. Chronicle pains me deeply twenty years seven hundred victims Southern Baptists sexual abuse spreads as leaders resist reforms reporters at the chronicle and the San Antonio Express News began an investigation last year to compile an archive of allegations of sexual abuse sexual assault and other serious misconduct involving southern Baptist pastors and other church officials. What they discovered is tragic the reporters found complaints made against hundreds of pastors church officials in volunteers at southern Baptist churches nationwide. They focused their search on the last twenty years concentrating on individuals who had documented connection to church listed in an SBC directory published by state or national association, they spent more than six months for viewing thousands of pages of cork prison and police records for more than twenty states and conducting hundreds of interviews. They also searched a sex offender registries nationwide. Ultimately, the reporters compiled them. Formation on three hundred eighty credibly accused officials in southern Baptist churches, including pastors deacons Sunday schoolteachers in volunteer leaders, they verified that about two hundred and twenty had been convicted of sex crimes or received deferred prosecutions in plea deals. They learned that at least thirty five church pastors employees in volunteers who exhibited predatory behavior were able to find jobs at churches over the last two decades. In some cases, church leaders apparently failed to alert law enforcement or warn other congregations victims as young as three were molested. Inside. Pastor studies in Sunday school classrooms. Some victims were adults seeking pastoral guidance who say they were seduced or sexually assaulted SBC. President JD Greer called the abuses described in the investigation, pure evil and said I joined with countless others who are currently weeping with those who weep. Russell Moore president of the ethics and religious liberty commission of the SBC call the report nothing short of a scandal and a crisis. He added there should be no tolerance for or covering up of sexual abuse of the vulnerable ever. Especially within the church of Jesus Christ even one victim of sexual abuse by southern Baptist leader would grieve the heart of God seven hundred is horrifying. Scripture cannot be clear on the imperative of sexual purity. I Corinthians six eighteen says flee sexual immorality. I this Jons four three says, this is the will of God, you're sanctify -cation that you have stained from sexual immorality, Hebrews thirteen. Four says God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous Colossians three five says put to death therefore, what is earthly in you sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil, desire and covetousness, which is a dollar tree leaders are to be held to an even higher standard. As I Timothy three to antitrust one seven say an overseer must be above reproach as James warned in James three one. We who teach will be judged with greater strictness while others are responding to the denominational in leadership aspects of this tragedy. I'd like to explore the spiritual and cultural strategy at work here sexual abuses, ultimately instigated by Satan who comes only to steal kill and destroy his purpose behind. This tragedy is not only. To attack the victims. But also to undermine the church's witness to the follow world as horrific as tragedy is these perpetrators represent only a small portion of southern Baptist leaders. There are more than forty seven thousand Baptist churches in the US. If each church had only one pastor five deacons ten Sunday school teachers the smallest church with which I'm familiar there would be more than seven hundred and fifty two thousand Baptist leaders. The report documents three hundred eighty credibly accused perpetrators. They would be point zero five percent of the total. The vast majority of southern Baptist leaders are committed to godly integrity. The vast majority of southern Baptist churches are safe places for children and families to worship serve please know that I do not mean at all to downplay the appalling tragedy of this report as I stated earlier one victim of clergy abuse would be too many. I cannot imagine the pain these victims have injured as Russell more notes, the courage in grace of these survivors is contrasted with the horrific depravity of those. Who would use the name of Jesus to prey on them while I cannot comprehend the victims suffering. I'm praying for their healing. And I'm praying for churches in leaders across the Christian world to renew our commitment to engage our culture with positive proactive service in transformational love will you. Join me. For more news discern differently or to receive the daily article through Email, please. Visit Dennis informed dot org. Thank you for listening to today's daily article podcast.

southern Baptist church southern Baptist SBC Texas Baptist university Russell Moore president Jim Dennison San Antonio Express News James Houston US assault Colossians JD Greer Dennis Satan Timothy twenty years zero five percent
What God Did in Uganda, Part 1

Christian Podcast Community

25:23 min | 1 year ago

What God Did in Uganda, Part 1

"Word of truth so we can worship God in spirit and truth deepening our knowledge of God thereby enabling us to deepen our love welcome to where we are studying to show ourselves approved rightly the opportunity to to be on the program to introduce myself a little bit I'm an accountant by trade I'm a CPA by trade. You hear from Mike and Mike Are you there I am thank you Mike it's it's great to have you with us man that you have heard me mention on this program many times before but he is now going to join us and you'll get to hear from him yourself but my friend a boss in a sense but I really truly appreciate his friendship and and his service to the Lord and and but that was four years ago I haven't really talked much about that trip since then so what I thought I would do is I know I have a lot of finds you and your family doing well and I want to thank you for joining me well a number of you have email me over the years telling me that you and just tell us a little bit Dallas a little bit about yourself and what you do in your family sure appreciate alias for a couple of days here two or three days we'll see how it goes and tell you about what was one of the one of the and I I guess if I if I had to choose I'm glad I don't but if I had to I would look back to the trip that I made to Uganda really enjoy it when I talk about trips that I've been on or witnessing encounters that I have had and so I thought we would take a little bit of a little bit of a higher his help in my own ministry but my can I went on this trip to Uganda together and so just GonNa take the next couple of programs to let you story how that got started you know father Six then married to carry for spend we keep track of anything anymore that's basically information about that much to say about silly myself eighteen years I think now about eight about eighteen years so and then you know have been a believer for trips that really stands out in my years of ministry thus far sometimes people ask me what the the favourite trip your favorite trip that you've been on and the Lord is Mike Miller Mike is own my board of Directors he and Jim Osmond serve my board so I guess you can say a Mike listeners or at least I hope I do from four years ago and so I wanted to share with you a little bit about this trip and introduce you to a friend of mine brother in the Lord back in two that was two thousand two thousand thirteen because our I actually turned forty years old on the trip so two thousand thirteen well maybe a decade maybe even longer spend longer than that it runs together hit forty it all starts sort of blend than he can you know by the grace of God I pastor a little church here in San Raise Oklahoma which by itself is Pretty Long It's pretty interesting you're married and you have how many kids x six kids all right what my oldest is twenty and then Jacobs Seventeen Rebecca's fifteen daniels thirteen twelve eleven it's eleven and Kayla's eight years old I remember one of the First Times Kathy him over to your house or your we one was she had seen us or seen me on on TV because he had one of my dvd maybe three but tell us give us a little bit of information how you said how your church came about as an interesting story in and of itself came to saving faith from from reading scripture and commander conviction drifted from church to Church for a while combat I think when I first met her she was gosh four I suppose resigned three hundred eighty three or four yeah yeah maybe three season in Christ for our sins as opposed to heal we both grew up nominal nominal Christians there was no repentance and we went to Australia really kind of the modern church seen I didn't really know much of anything other than the basics of a gospel and within a couple of weeks or like you should teach here and I was too I was too immature to know that was dangerous I was just trying to figure out what Paul was talking about so that'd began my you know he'll garbage if he would into into theology and he's and he kept calling me what Mr Peters and it was it was so cute she's precious she's eight years old now well thinking for a Baptist this was a badge church right and they had a mormon teachings hemisphere that's correct so I realized in that process I didn't know anything and so I thought well I don't know anything until these people so I thought well I'll just go through burst anymore it less and less people came so I was I was accused by them and this is a very secret friendly church kind of the modern the whole having to wrangle through the scriptures in understand really beyond the superficial level What what the Bible saying and I just basically the that I listen to Some bye Bye Paul Washer and I'd listen to some sermons by Ray Comfort and a few other night tempting conviction about biblical and more focused on scripture. I didn't know the term exposition at the time I have no clue what that meant I was total attrition as it drifted into more and more of a biblical it's a Baptist Church but I call it pentecostal Baptist you know a lot of focus on tithing sermons and how you feel and meeting you felt needs and all that super just in general nature God attributes of God as the class of this is ironic as the class became more and more Hart was really at one point in complete agnostic jerry kind of grew up sort of somebody God pentecostal sort of background. You know what Paul is talking about and how it should be applied as I'm reading more from other Christians in the mass less people are coming to this class and he asked Eh Southern Baptist Church with a lot of emphasis on on a felt needs and the the whole invitatinal system was a big insuring the face at large so I got on a number of time to share the Gospel with people and I've seen God you know these amazing miraculous interventions on cater to people like that so I later found out then I could I could at least a superficial field for whether somebody was biblical yeah sure sure you have to do that carry nylon like a lot of new believers and we can't convictions San and candidate at one point district had a Mormon and was teaching Sunday school class didn't realize he was a moment for like a decade does nothing for them to have a novice believer like me teach a class for another church that was more serious than just to one another big Baptist Church and about this time people that I witnessed to gone on the street this God say even broken down over there sand you know right in church Christian to of and a bunch of the the youth came forward convicted that they weren't even Christian I didn't believe anything unconverted people I mean over half the youth group came forward Ron and I really didn't know what I was talking about the time but I had I had enough information to share the Gospel and so finally at this church you're going to this with another secret friendly my dea yes I agree to it as a baby Christian you know it's very dangerous for an even teach much less of somebody who's really new in the faith or the years ago the stuff and they were like well you know my already understand the stuff that doctor and we just want to get together and have done that some talk so I started exploring looking for I mean explained to me that he's had this deacon their church who had gone at one point and he had preached the the Youth Group how for years yeah yeah and this was years ago but yeah for years he was teaching there and then finally one day accidentally mentioned Mormon and sort of hushed it out of the church you don't have to them and but despite the church was biblical in terms of his doctrine it wasn't difficult terms practice and there were there were nothing that was theological it was all just you know so much more than you would get out of a masonic lodge so I went to the pastor in Sydney an advantage there is a theological errors significant once again we had an open lady teaching summer school classes we had women teachers we had people that were big Dave Ramsey fans if people were fans of Some Prosperity Gospel people and as once again there's a lot of issues at that church going to pass you know I'm as become were convicted about these different areas of scripture and as we've gone deeper into very precise on doctrine we were there for a while and then that's when I met fellow Sean and a few folks that and eventually got to a point where I come to conviction along with this other brother that we wanted to kind of get away from Meta this guy liked him or not usually that would be an indication that there was it was not necessarily the biblical teaching but in the process I got to that pastor Russian class role with the older children and as he went through the youth room we were finding all kinds of heretical books various types and we brought it to the pastor's attention and that'd be instead he got offended that guy got ran out of church you know that sort of thing so Later on providential has ran into that feller I started looking for another church because we knew that wasn't the issue and I remember one time I said no I want the people in that class on like hey what's wrong with you guys aren't you interest you know this this one man had enough courage to you know share the Gospel with these students were in the Church Not Hearing the Gospel hearing everything else yeah there was interesting providence so we were in the position at that point in this this other family and we felt like I uni discipleship classes called discipleship but then having a cool thing class and you know a class on how to cook and a bunch of things other than discipleship and we we witness together few times and we drifted to this other I went to his church and this church is a small Very Kelvin Aesthetic Church Group of about thirty or fifty students or so you know and he'd just started preaching to them they're they're getting together for you know hotdogs or whatever there at the church parking lots so I went through the process of forming and planting and during that period of time on social media a lot of other and but that's how I initially met bill we have the idea at the time and we've done it a few times before we send Gospel Tracts Embassy sort of bring some controversy we were seen as you know as as problem makers not trying to cause a problem just that you've got you've got mature they were unconverted and had never really understood a believe the gospel into the Church the passive UNDIS- was very controversial in reality should have been celebrating the fact of the Gospel with them and things that happen because he goes to the candy that here because we tried that is very controversial controversial and I said you know what they're doing all these discipleship classes and not being an evangelist other than myself and I said well I said relievers social media can be good or bad and whenever they can be good meal you can build contact with people geographically he would never after two years we became really good friends and so then I remember time we B- and my oldest so bad there's so much hostility and gossip illustration can't you know they're not they're not walking the walk and look I don't WanNa leave another church okay I said John Jacob who was pretty young at the time we went to we were wretched radio real had a conference where you were invited speaker focus pair pastor was very much interested in Andy Stanley this big mentor and you know the Plano Plano yeah he's done more than one yeah I think there has been a roughly eight years now I can't have that might controversial controversial again so there's other brother he said look he goes he goes we need we need to leave it's getting so gone with were very very superficial you know four spiritual off type things and so I deal with bill what if I wrote a track and and one thing that had happened my background image before I was a very nominal Christian as my whole family and both sides we begin a dialogue and friendship has co Labor's talking about the challenges of still logical issues and churches church issues and in class where it talked about people's experiences maybe go out of groups you know you witness The people in that explained to him the United gone out a few times and run into this folks India and so bill did that he translated the tracks over there that co laboring sort of in that process over about a year and a half all these churches overseas and trying to you know give them some help to to share the Gospel Gospel Tracts tool for them and I thought well there wasn't any in the quite family you spend the family had deep roots within symbol of God movement you know even heavily came to convicted of my own need for salvation it became a lot more crystal clear but I'd never heard lucid and I couldn't really differentiate that much between that Christianity I got older when I was saved you know he came to not only understand the gospel the you know we can continue going here we didn't go back to the secret friendly churches pentecostal Baptist Church that we had before you know maybe this is the point where we need plan the age segregated model said so popular in American churches where everybody splits up by age you know they have children's Church and they have five year old classics class and all this and I and and I knew that wasn't even before it was a Christian and that wasn't very wasn't the sound doctrine has a Christian absolutely convicted about it the forty days of purpose or something leaving and I'll be home behold the next week we've got forty days of purpose kind of you know in contact with and Bill Bester bill at the time had also come to condition that point of the church and so we had a lot in common you know some experience that they had had you know some mystical experience or everything was a quid pro quo gospel was all based upon Well here we we know renowned Theological issues yeah this needs to be addressed you know who's teaching this to the people in this church the disowned me or not but my family had been devastated his word I would use devastated by the bad theology that's endemic within the and on the other side there were big followers of Jesse duplantis and Joel Stein and you know as a non as a non Christian semi agnostic and So I was I was definitely intrigued because before you know I couldn't I can't think of a single person I ever heard that really fronted that where's the world can we just have a class where we have moldy age everybody is together and that was the worst idea in their mind that we can ever do precedes the dealt with was dealing with some of the popular TV preaching so you know so profound interventions to get us You know a focused in the right direction it's not a difficult situation because you know most people Tesla was as a child I would've told people I was a Christian but didn't believe the Gospel didn't know what I believe I I could see the errors some of the prosperity preaching exposing of those doctrines. Ns distinct way so I remember watching that seminar thought wow this is really great I would love to send this video to my grandmother's time to watch it are we on this place where the Tulsa area you know it's a heresy central to a large degree in a lot of areas I'm in the Gunnedah that were over biblical very precise I didn't give a thorough explanation of the gospel the ones that we found on that were which is the language not I mean we drove two or three hours you know before we find something that was biblical so we felt like we had we were doing it by necessity and that changes the influence the followers of Prosperity Gospel various types my parents on the Miller side were were followers of Jim Baker for a long period of time there were big support of the TVN intrigued by it and then after we planted the church went along for awhile and then you had you know pretty uh-huh Pakistan Christian friends that had received this stuff was everywhere those everywhere every country that I had a friend in one of the biggest the plant church they do because that's their job you know they find a church because they've done the church planting school or something you know the church planters life you know well he goes you guys tithing tithing God blessed timing so that point carrying on what people typically experience and looking back behind it despite our immaturity despite our flesh and a weakness Uh people to serve despite their flesh despite their issues and in fact I think sometimes he was he was behind it for his own purposes like he always does he does he does what he does because he's got and he has thinks he's working out and he qualifies you can't even think how many years ago was it years ago something like that remember that roles to give account for we have this you know we know in scripture then we we've got to be in fellowship with your through these things Emotional Appeal Gospel that you would in any pentecostal church facet at the chase the flavor of I think from you know it's it's one of bashes of a lot of false doctrine even amongst what would appear to be fairly conservative a local festival and it was a wellness festival which was all the biggest people attending the wellness festival was the local Hyper charismatic you know taught like you know where we had you know there was geographically nothing nearby that we couldn't in good conscience of and You know the the the the one former deacon that was a friend of mine at the time you know he he was going so me and a few of

Mike it Eh Southern Baptist Church accountant church planting school Paul pentecostal Baptist Gunnedah Jim Baker jerry kind Tulsa TVN Hart Miller eight years eighteen years forty days four years forty years three hours three days
10 Dave Searl  Missional Eldership

Beavercreek Christian Church

34:21 min | 1 year ago

10 Dave Searl Missional Eldership

"Welcome to the Christian church podcast. This is the audio archive of our migration to emission movement. We do this week to come alongside you as we take this journey together. Because we want you to always remember, we're on the journey with you. Everybody. Welcome back to the BCC podcast. I'm Stu Schecter. Hopefully, you're starting to recognize my voice. If your regular listener. And we thank you for being on his journey with us. I'm in my office today with Dave cerrell there. And Dave is they are sharing our current chairman of and we rotate that every six months, Dave and plan that's the plan. And and so Dave is Dave is in his term as chairman. And so I wanted to take take a moment and just talk about this new this new direction this mission direction that we've taken if you tuned in a couple of weeks ago, you heard Chris Ed I talking about that. And and as we go into this mission movement of this this this migration to a mission movement. We wanted to sit down and listen to even talk about what it means to be an elder in this at BC. So Dave thanks for being here again what? And so let's start there when you when you signed onto being elder what were the differences between what you thought it was going to be one in being. The great question because I did not know. Much about elder ship part of B C. So I I came to Christ in a southern Baptist church show that probably the first thirty years of my life. That was the the mindset tradition of that denomination. We didn't use determine elders. We we were structured with was a senior pastor, maybe some associate passers, and then we had deacons here would care for the families and under in that church by so my first exposure to it was was really here at BCC and just prior to come in and B, I ending my career in the military. I had a chaplain pull me aside. And he any I was on. I was enough another church chaplain on our friends, and I remember him encouraging me he said, Dave. He says the church by means elder like you are you talking about. So so I I mean I had to do some digging and to look I kinda tackling. My my my understanding maybe some preconceived ideas of what that even was cool. That's neat. Yeah. Because I grew church to my grand, my Granddad was deacon in our church. And when I started talking about what the difference was deacon elder in in the southern Baptist her. She says, well, that's the pastor of the church is the elder. He's the elder. They're the elders. The truth is and ended up nation. They would call them. It was a senior pastor and teaching elder even again, even really didn't use that term lot. In pastors actually interchangeable in the New Testament with elder elder pastor, Bishop is they're all interchangeable, Paul Usedom. So that's another step further and other another filter. I answer Jodi, Jodi. My wife, she she came to Christ throw a wrench to the church, but her history was in the Lutheran church. Okay. And they kind of had they didn't really use elders as much, but they when you did they were kind of these governing bodies almost the business side, the church, and so again, different different mindset of different filter. So when you became an elder. Here of ISI and actually start interacting with elders probably four you or installed Elber. How did you perspective begin to change? First prospective was when actively involved in ministry, you know, for decades. Was that you know as a protest to for considering it. I thought man that's not me. I'm I'm way under qualified. So I had this again, this understanding than an elder somebody who is really grounded and experienced and seasoned and lies, and I just thought man. Oh, man. I am at my leader. That's not. Yeah. That's not me. So I I was I pushed back for years on any engagement with with when those requests come through. So you didn't see your training as an air force officer. No, no again again. It's because I still at the time. I only know what to expect. It was kind of scary. So now that you're an elder and have been how long have you been elder couple years now. Yeah. So knows you've been an older for couple years. What have you what's been different? How's your perspective changed? I suppose my does my general understanding, and I look at it. Now, the best the best drug in use is it's a is it's it's a shepherd, and so I think about all what will mcadoo Eben can't never been around sheep. But I'm thinking about the are biblical understanding of shepherd roll the of caring and protecting and the feeding and the direction for for the sheep. Think about the caring soul. Okay. Our our roles elder is is carrying. That's encouragement. It's council. It's it's praying for the church body, and such you gotta feed to sheep. We're talking there about again about teaching biblical council. And and again, getting courage -ment protection that could be I think about. Protecting the unity of the body of Christ. Make sure have you know, it's just a gossiping or things that might break up that unity in the body. What? You know, what I think also about giving the shepherd giving the sheep that direction or go this way, I'm thinking about that this role of vision-casting if you will of of the soundness of our doctrine, and where we're headed kind of thing. So it gives me with those filters. I go I can grasp that I understand we're going there now. So it's not a business hat that this spiritual development and courage minute pasturing, if you will body across this really cool veggie said his a lot of times, it's really easy to take care of business at church, and then the then the minister is the pastor is they take care of those fears, but it's not the people here at church, they tend to think in their minds to think with business hat onto what are you guys doing about the Washington a lobby or in the hallways or or the emails, and they tend towards that. But. But again, which is probably old paradigm. Sure, they're used to somebody's gonna be running things governance. And again that there is some components, but what we have people that are gifted in that set that do those things for your PC. See that operations team that handles that than so different filter. Yeah. You deferred to those guys. Because that's what they do. They're good at it. And there might be an elder he'll sit on the ops team. But it's not that's not their primary. Roles elver is the roles and elders of Chevron I like that. That's good. So now now we're going into this will we've been we've terms of our as a mission movement. What we're trying to be church that is tapping into the the the greater mission of Jesus. The kingdom of God, he called it keenum of heaven eternal life. They're kinda like, and as we go into that that's meant something for BCC, we've begun to shift our paradigm, and we've talked about that a lot from your perspective. What that look like to you. Yes. So that's big that's a big paradigm shift again from from the fifties. In the vast portion of my life. We did church way. We always thought it was very traditional and whether again other Baptists, but I've even the models in the church said visit they're very simple you had this. This pastor would teach and preach and care for this church body. And and felt like our job is church was show up at the church, and we listened to this pastor songs the worship leader. And and again that was kind of. Good or bad wrong. I mean that was what we knew. That's how we gather. As you. Put in quotes from using air quotes here. How did church in? So now, I mean, the Paramus different our no art your job is just to show of a spectator the sea, but you are the church and you're living on mission for Christ. And that's not just showing up at some building somewhere sitting and listen to somebody teach although there valium being. Devaluing? And I don't wanna bag harsh on while. We did it all wrong those years, right? But I think we missed a large portion of living on her faith in the talk about living on mission. And so. This again, we're about we're about how do we chain Henry chains that minds at every change that culture, then paradigm termi us. How do we have? We changed it to where you're part of this. Right. Not just not just a paid staff, but everybody here, everybody's a ministry. Everybody's everybody's administer. Everybody's got a ministry out. What is it? What's yours? Yeah. Yeah. Your gift is. Because when we talked about gifts all the time. Right. That's what we're talking about is like you go find what you're niches. You know, you're are you have Stolac prophetic? If you don't know what those terms are. Maybe that's some teaching that we that we need to help you with right. But it's but it's finding out what you're good at. And what God seems to be calling you to you. Look, you look you look in the in the New Testament clauses talks about this gathering church. And it says when whenever you get together every everybody has his piece to play said some of you have teaching our prophecy or a him or solve or one of the carpet. But everybody you have this this. This vision of everybody comes in. And everybody's is. Contributing teaching or speaking to what the what God is doing in their lives. And so it's out of that giftedness and we've got stores share. We've all got brawl in different circles of influence journeys. But may come together we at that time it seen. What is doing our lives? We learn from each other encourage each other again, that's a that's a different model than sitting down listening to one person talk about that. So. We think that I mean, we try to model that like on Sunday mornings. We've tried to show people that having a diversity of of speakers that they're not just one person constantly, but different ones. So as an elder what's that meant to you seeing that experiencing that being part of that. So the first the first thing that that I see line that model is is. Elders more than it. You just can't talk about this stuff you need. It's there. They are leading the way an active engagement, they should be the ones of role models. And we're saying we see what you're doing. We're gonna copy that. It's not again, again, that's shift to because I think even with my my my teenager had on I look at these people, and I think. I have a role miss, you know, and but it's different now. So again, so I look at it now while I it's very challenging for me to k-. My my leading my modeling my doing these things in my engaged in. So I think there's a responsibility on the elders. Showing the church body. This is what we're talking about. So it's not just sitting on a board anal- somewhere throwing allies. You are it's modeling discipleship. Look like is one of the things I've been playing with is this I d of of practices. Practices come before paradigm shift. But you you design a paradigm shift for culture change, you start practicing it so other people can see it. But when you practice, it you practice it with humility approximate love, and as you do that people see that in their paradigm begins to shift that change. That's kind of what you just explained that any organization I've been in the what we talk about. How do we change the culture and their studies done? I'm I'm I'm not talking to turn any any organization any any gathering. We're get people and you change change cultures by what you pay attention to what you focus on what you reward. What you encourage? What you practice? It's it's your creating over and over and over this this way of doing things in arcades how into way of living on our faith. So we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna Rogin reward it. We're gonna celebrate it. We're going to encourage it. We're gonna we're gonna hit it. Over over again. And we're gonna model it so people see that. It's not just a flash of pain. It's not. It's a logo. It's not some hit marketing frames. But no, it's really it's really who who we are. This is our identity, and I'm not. Man. This is the body crisis played out so tore that to that. Okay. So so. So I've got a ministry's going on where I gathered people in my home for the purpose of discipleship. And I do that. I have a couple groups that I'm leading might want our young adults in their primary twenty two early thirties. Got some empty nesters my age probably fifty to six years old. And we we do things pretty similarly. But I will tell you that of those gatherings. The there's only a small percentage of people that are no cutting formally align BCC from therefore all around the city, they're from different churches, some are unchurched. But but again, it's bigger than BCC. This is about okay. My my role as how do I encourage and disciple and and steer these groups of people wherever the rat around. These people are plugged all around this this community, and we keep hitting home. What is what is was? It mean, what does it mean to live out our faith? And and I tell you run across people will never ever meet of good, and our past whatever meet your interest people that will never step foot church. It's at the on the ball field on our we've a lot of medical people there that are in the hospitals there, we have folks in the university's folks in a military base. There's people all those places that will never ever stepped foot in a church. Right. And so the only Goss spoil the only Jesus own good news ever. Here in counter, come from the people that gather in my home. And so it's it's bigger than BCC. This this culture change is one we're hoping we're lead the pack thing, but we're going to step out, and we're trying to change. Shifted a chain. We're trying to get over showed in the first. This is work. This is back emission that Jesus. Like started two thousand years ago and has developed at times, you see it in church history pockets of it. But there is there's an opportunity now within our culture that we're becoming a lot more decentralized where we're becoming a lot more mobile, and in almost assesses that we take the gospel, you know, away from a centralized place to where we live, and which is was Jesus intent in the beginning. And as good as that too. Because again, people have you asked him what's church about that? Don't that our church Yeah, they have a preconceived idea. What that would look like usually flawed. Sometimes right about just. But we over complicate. It's not about sitting at seat singing two songs heaven Somme saying they offering similar song. And that's that that's understandable. While it's not it's bigger than more than that. Right. And so, you know, you you, you know, extending mercy and love, and and and kindness and humility the name of crisis somebody else on a ball field. How's that not, you know living on mission for Christ? Exactly. That's and that's the so so your roles in elder, then shifts from just that's what you would say, it's more than just business meetings and stuff the shepherding a flock in that flock that you're chef. They're hoping shepherd is in the kingdom. It's not necessarily just at BC. Crack are I'd say our focuses in elder here. BC right now in the season rat is is change the culture. Yeah. How do we how do we influence that? And and, cultivate, that and I suspect that I'm. I hope you great job at it. And then I suspect in our next season. The focus of an elder is going to be immi expanding that what are other really tapping more the giftedness of are over flock. Hoping they'll find their space mission where they're at and fostering that now now now again now if I have to someone Sarah focusing now is how do we get people to understand that they have an active role in volume of Christ? And I'm not just talking about working in the nursery or the children's area on a sunny morning. Like, it's bigger than that. We're saying let's again, what is what you we're not. We're not trying to scare you got gifts and nephew uniquely, gifted that and helping to find out what that is. And then and then plugging into that wherever they're at man, I mean in resourcing them from the back end like so so so bomb, for instance, listen says, you know, once it was my family Dutch, great. That's an awesome mission. So how can we resource use that you could be good news your family? We'll maybe like you said a nurse works at the hospital. You know and says I see it's the the people I work with. Were the patients I'm interacting with. Well. How can we help you be the good news wherever you are? And so it shifts with everybody. Yeah. Like that Fisher the pain. Another thing that I think of when I think is Stu is that again, the old model is always come about numbers is like, well, we're going to we're going to have vacation bible school, and we're gonna have you all been the kids in here. And we're going gonna do all together. And we're going to you know, I need I need forty volunteers. I need people work in the kitchen curve on evil, whatever it is. You know, sometimes those are those are those are granted these, but it's you you don't have to have a whole team of people. You don't have to have a budget. You don't. I mean, you you you're out there in the soccer field Everson weekend. Right. And who you tell you encounter or or you pick the situation. So it's also brightness this idea or this this minds, and that it's got to be a program that church organizes and runs and in and helps you. We well, we need to help people get understand what it is. And maybe we can clarify out. To help them get going and somehow given the training or some tools or resources needed. But but again, it's it doesn't have to be a program with a bunch of people that hold a lot of people back. I mean, what you what you're describing. I think is the cycle ship is 'cause you don't need a program to disciple. Someone. You just need the willingness and the person, you know, do this. And let me let me draw from my experience let me draw from walk with God. And and in the in the fact that I've been head of you, maybe at least a step, and I can pour back into you. And how you find out because this is my passion, you know, what is yours. That's it. That's beautiful makers. I mean, that's the way I've always seen discipleship is. Because I've done it with kids a lot. But I've also done it with adults because even as a youth pastor had to raise up leaders. And say this is what I wanna do with you want to help you do that. And I've got youth leaders who are no longer, you leaders. They've moved onto something else. They've done something else. Just only guy the other day. The first kid ever disciple is now a senior pastor church, you know, and he's trying to do kind of what we did even when I was filming around with back, you know, years ago. So you when you were here BCC the first time, we're kind of taken under under the wing by somebody and shown some of this stuff who. So when I was the first time about fifteen years ago or so. My kids were in high school the time. And so I find with the youth group that was here BCC and the youth. Pastor Debussy was was separating them. And it's got involved I wanted to help out, and I was I was a Christ follower very passionate about that. But I never really led or shepherded or disciple. Other people I was kind of again that old model that will mindset of show church and keep me teach a class or whether it was on Sunday mornings at you. But Dan, Dan took manage weighing Dan to Dan was with these youth was living out discipleship. He had we had broken up into smaller groups, and we those call them platoons. We call them tribes now TRITON, so we had and they was they were there were ahead of all those those platoons we had these youth leaders these these are teenagers that were Jesus lovers and more mature in their faith that were kind of guiding and shepherding the other friends of theirs in there. And I was I was along for that ride. Just kind of be in the adult room if you will. But Dan, took me aside in Dan, and some other adults and taught us this is what it looks like this is what it looks like when I talked about shepherding somebody else. What have you gathered people in your home? You get a group that maybe that small group would look like. And so I mean, I learned we taught me through some skills of of again, our focus Moley, the model was. Some small gatherings. I'm not saying that's how all ministries dumb. But if you wanna meet with a few people. And we would talk and we saw islander him. I learned what invite people in my home. What could we do that would be a vibrant and meaningful? And and we we pray. We would worship, and we looked at a passages. And then they always talk about what you now one. What do we do with this on? How do we take it outside these walls kind of thing? So. Van colonists, four ws. We had this this walk of time of every part of this we whether it's gabbing and catching up and tell stories and laughing together eating together we had a ton of worship. And we do that sometimes with music sometime to art sometime through a walk in the neighborhood. Whatever is away connected with God. We talked about the word, and it was just this. Okay. What we'd look in the passages and their lasts Debbie was the walk as okay now. How do we take this out of here on this house out of this yard somewhere? And that's kind of that for me when I gathered people in my home, that's the model I use now. But again, I I learned that under under Dan who was living this out with his these youth platoons. That's pretty cool model on in. It made sense to me it was so practical. So now when I grab people my home with young adults are or seniors, you know will. That's what you're doing. Do. You know? Always leaves that next step of okay? Now what you know, we we would talk about what's God saying to you. And what are you? What are you gonna do about it? And it's not just you know, I'm going to think about this. I'm gonna pray about me is, you know, but but ability do targeting hardy the hairs on the back your head stand up a bit. Like, you know, what I mean this this connect with this way or something? But it's always because that's the Steph. We always kind of all my years of church. We never really want that roar major fall into spirit, and that's hard to do scared to do. But but it is it's because all it's been all about collecting, knowledge and knowledge is good. Like, you said it's good to have the teaching listening Dan downs, the go he data goes, he does, you know, enough stuff about Jesus I'm looking at what he goes. He goes. But the knowing, you know, his idea this idea of your you got plenty of on knowledge up there. Gilbert. Stops. Don't tell that to be the the insurance holding back plenty now, let's go and act on it. You know? And now he's resonated with me. That's really cool. So last question as an elder, and as we go into this new paradigm of stuff, this new culture, which the relationship between staff and elders as. This is when we're still trying to figure out right because again, the old model was staff. The kind of was responsible for the care and feeding and the pastoral the instruct all those things about being a shepherd. Feeding the care protection the direction. And so you, and okay, let's job. Now in this new model was say, well, wait a minute. Everybody's got we've got these. We're all part of the body. And so so as an elder we. Construes took strumming that work practically not as easy as having some one person in the top. It's not. And I think it's it's easy that cheap way on the ground. Let's go back to the old way. It's easier that way. It's not the right way. And so our challenge now, we're still trying to work with this. Right. It it's we always immunity. It's not a one person show. And if any if any person left for any reason, whether an elder or staff. What? We don't collapse. Right. We can't we we're real rural Inness. And so that's a big change because you know, in in churches in the past when we had maybe there's been a revered or favourite pastors average favorite retires in church falls apart. Because guys on his charismatic. Are you seeing the sad occasions where year about him were pasture? A problem creeping sin live and in church collapses. That's because out all the is run that one person. And so by by by this this new way of thinking are is are not on all is Ron all this body believers that are all bringing things in the body. Whether you're teaching from a stage, or you're you're the encourage or out there in the neighborhood or your that person's on a soccer Ville talking about Jesus to your friends and all of us are part of this this body and so as an elders resist driving for practically look in. You know, because we're trying to change our our our practices, and how did things even how we make a decision. It's all different. And so. I'm pro engineer question the greatest, but nobody being honest about where we're at because I hear you because it's easy for for as a staff member to hey, you guys need to make a decision. But then I go, no, I'm part of this. You know, even though even though we work in symbiotic, you know, and I do the day today. But we worked together on the over the, you know, the big picture stuff. It's still. Okay. So what is what is it? We do here. How do we do this and one of the things Chris Ed Naidoo is we go. Oh, we can do this. We do this. We need to talk to the elders about that. Because it's going to require a little bit more than just doing the next thing. And from from a practical standpoint all the elders here are there fulltime employed doing something in this community. And so there's right away. You see the hard, right? How do you get? How do we make this his get together? So we we have to convene and we can try to do. Events lucked out from virtual video teleconference or or we can try some emails which is not the greatest, but we need to get together. We need have gathering meet talk. And and that can't happen every day. And and so in that's hard. Keep it going forward. And but I don't know we just we just there's tremendous value in staying the course, right? And I think that that is that is an example of what we mean when we say we're all on mission. We all have places we live and all the places we go and places we work, and we just sometimes need to sit down and go, okay Ray on the same page with this some of the some of this. I think he was going to get easier as because right now, I mean when somebody's sick or somebody wants something or has a problem or they call call after you call that one person. Well, you don't have to. We've got a whole body of people here. Call somebody you can call it so many people up here, and and can come and pray with you. You don't need to have a paid staff or the full time pastor come in the sitting at your side. I mean, and so they can mindset that we sent than we think there's something special about that quick example. I had I had a neighbor this right before I came to be I had a neighbor that was scared. She was alone or husband was deployed, and she was convinced. There was something evil in her house. And she knew we were believers in our house, and she said, would you come and pray in my house, and I I have friend on the street who's administer another church, and I guess at a buddy mine, the pastor's, call them up, and we can come over and do that. It's not called him up. He goes. Yeah. Come over. And so we went we went in with her, and we prayed, and we walked her property, we prayed and all. The rooms. And and she was so much peace through left here in this this friend of mine was a pastor church. He goes would you call me for? And I said that to you know, would wanna company goes to now you didn't he says you thought that I had the thorny do this? And it says you were in the easy way out. And it was so convicting a scenario put kindly put his finger my jazz, and he's my age, and he goes, he goes, listen, he goes, you have all the thorny you need a new says, you do not mean a communist from now on he's need you to step out and step into these things. And it was convicted. And it was so true. But he goes, I didn't get my mindset was call. The pastor took care and now no living mission. I can do that I've thirty to proclaim Christ and had every thirty in collar, right? Exactly. It's happened to be you know, you have to have your vocation into this. But you have no more than me. Right. It's the priesthood of Lubers were all were now, we're Royal priest. We are a holy nation. We are the ones called by God. That was it's not just the priests or the pastors or whatever, it's the everyone. My vocation happens to be clerical. You know, it's helping I'm hoping as we address culture, we can change that mindset. And so it becomes easier to govern maybe group about BCC together in this building because people feel comfortable, and and and encourage empowered in their own or to call or indicate somebody that's right next to them to come and tackle something and don't have to into a pastor whose limited. We'll have a couple of passers on his staff and so. Yeah. We'll have a couple of staff we've got whole building ago. Dave, thanks for being here guys there. Thanks for listening of hope, this has been helpful. We've got some insight vision-casting we're going and what we're trying to do just as a real quick plug. We've got a few things happening around here that you probably see probably saying we have a discover BC class. It's ramping up of a welcome lunch is always going on about every six weeks. So if you're new to BC or your around BC senior wondering wh what's more the details of why we do this. And how we do it. Maybe wanna check those things out. You can you can contact us at office at beaver creek, Christian dot or you can check out the website. If you getting questions feel free to reach out and talk to us, but thanks for being here. And we'll talk in next time.

BCC Dave cerrell BC Dan downs Stu Schecter soccer Lutheran church Christian church southern Baptist church chairman Chris Ed ISI Jodi Bishop Paul Usedom mcadoo Eben officer Washington Pastor Debussy
A Candid Conversation About Christianity: Seth Andrews & Pastor Caleb Moore

The Thinking Atheist

2:01:22 hr | 2 years ago

A Candid Conversation About Christianity: Seth Andrews & Pastor Caleb Moore

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What you're going to hear today is a candidate. And sometimes it's very Frank conversation between me and a local pastor his name is Caleb more. He was introduced to me and expressed interest in having conversation either on my show or on his podcast, and he has a show of his own talk about Christianity about God about atheism, and whatever else came up, and is I'm all about dialogue and conversations. I said, absolutely. So we came to my house just a few days ago, we both sat down in front of microphones. And we spoke for almost two hours. We made a guarantee to each other with the front end, and I'll make this guarantee to you as well what you're going to hear has not been edited. And to my knowledge pastor more isn't going to do any of that either. I mean, I don't know if he's going to do commentary on his own show or what I'm not. I'm just gonna play you the interview I think the conversation stands on its own. Okay. And that's what. You're going to hear today. He spends the first I think ten fifteen minutes telling his story, and then he and I really get a chance to engage chowder. And I hope you enjoy this exchange of ideas between myself and pastor Caleb more. It's interesting. You know, all about conversations, I'm always talking about having conversations, and how people who have a disagreement about something that's really important to them. They should be able to sit in a room and not just hanging up, perhaps even be friendly befriends. I hope that's what today is I've got Caleb more in studio. Hey caleb. Hey, we can high five afterwards. New. I pastor Kahlo. Please brother. Honorable revenue is my preferred title local pastor, right? Correct. You are what kind of church isn't. It's a reformed southern Baptist church for those who are thinking what's a reformed southern Baptist church. So we kind of took the things we liked about Southern Baptists but trim the fat. So we don't have a lot of the traditions that maybe people who grew up southern Baptist might have. So we don't think dancing is of the devil. You can play cards right things. Like that that maybe I was brought up to. So we're we're always trying to get back to what scripture actually. Says and forget about some of these manmade traditions that we might have invented. So you've got some like alcohol in the communion glasses. Maybe in the cabinets. The main reason is because we have a lot of recovering addicts that come. So we're opposed was making a join. I was raised you puritan family where a beer in the fridge. They'd have an intervention scheduled tonight. Oh, yes. It's one of the great many vices that we were warned against it's a a gateway to greater sins and disobedience and the eyes of man then God, right? One of the great jokes and Baptist circles is if you take a Baptist fishing only take never take one because if you take one he'll drink all your beer, you need the second one to guilt him in an odd drinking. So the one I heard was if the see the reformed Baptists don't recognize the Southern Baptists in church and the Southern Baptists don't recognize each other at a bar. I always thought that was interesting you you can tell those who grew up in the southern Baptist when you're at the grocery store, and they tried to hide within their cart. So they just kind of hide it behind their back. Oh, hey preacher. And I'm interested in how the Baptist church has evolved. It's going through its own problems right now with the expose of. Sexual abuse within the church, which is something in the Catholic church has been going on has had going on for a long long time. And and but as far as culturally, you know, the frozen Chosin model sort of given away to this. I don't know it's not necessarily a life church model. But you know, what? I mean, it's contemporary the pastors have tattoos, right? As you do. Right. Correct. I mean, you've seen is this an appeal to younger people. What do you think explains that there's a lot of it? I see the message watered down basically because people aren't just ignorant about scripture, people are just ignorant in general. So the church has reflected that we're too afraid to we almost protect them from their bible a little bit. So everything is going to be a, hey, here's just basic kindergarten level stuff. And we're going to rehash that to you. But we'll make it more exciting this way, so laser lights rock band. So we're going to rehash it to where it's more exciting. But it's just the same thing. You learned in kindergarten because we don't think you can handle the depth. And I think Postmodernism plays a little bit of a roll into that where we've elevated emotions extremely high in. That's infiltrated. Evangelism. We talk about the motivational speaker kind of evangelism. You are somebody. Yeah. You know, happy clap he go be a success today. Jolo steam type stuff if I may that. Yeah. In the interesting thing of of where we're from in Tulsa is like the prosperity gospel came from here. Right. You know, it gets origination. Very much from oral Roberts in Raimo. And so a lot of that has that same influence of God wants to make you happy. He's gonna make you rich. He's going to give you the nice car. Don't you worry? You know, he's on your team. So he's going to give you all the stuff that you're earthly heart desires, and he's going to start with me. Yeah. Yeah. It works its way up doesn't it? It's amazing those pyramid schemes how the top guys. It works your cynical about. Now. I'd say cynical skeptical about the name it and claim it kind of prosperity teachings. I think that's what we would have in common is I feel like I'm a skeptic. When I my main I I used to swim in these Christian atheists circles a lot, but you know, it's good to be here because it kinda reignites my brain in that way. But my arena for the last probably eight years has been Mormonism where I go to Salt Lake, and I trained churches to engage them and a question I just asked to LDS, which they like to be called letter day sites at the mall the other day, the first thing I asked as said, hey, were you brought up Mormon and they said, yeah. As his don't you think it's a coincidence that the faith you believe to be true is the one you were brought up in. And I think every Christian should ask himself that same question. Like, of course, you believe it's true. It's what you were brought up to believe how convenient right? And if they. I've never had that introspection that self reflection. I think they've done themselves a disservice. Because I was like how are you going to evangelize me? And tell me what I believe is incorrect, if you haven't analyzed to say was even what I believe. Correct. It's like you're just kind of maybe living off of the scraps of your parents faith, and they told you and you trust your parents. And they're nice people. So you just go. Okay. Well, let's unpack that here in just a second. But tell me about what you came out of what your parents religious. Yes. Very much so and we probably had somewhat of a similar upbringing my favor of religion. If I met this southern Baptist. So my dad was a youth pastor and associate pastor at the largest church and Tolstoi at the time. He was there on staff for fifteen years and kinda tell my little store hit. So I grew up in that environment, and what I saw at allied my friends were there, but I never really cared much for the lessons. I was like, okay. I know David. Goliath, but it no the bible, and I didn't really feel like people are actually trying to teach them the bible. It was just here's a story. Here's a here's a story. But what I would see at home was my family interacting with all the difficult people that were on staff. Oh, so and so said did this. So and so's having fair. This is happiness is happening. Well, these sound like awful people. I'm like, so I don't know why you're invested in this. They don't seem to be decent human beings. My senior year. My parents gave them the option. Like, they always wanted me to go to what we call, quote, unquote, big church, right? Which is the Sunday morning. Ten thirty. But Sunday school was an option. I was old enough to drive. So I would drive myself to Sunday school, and I had lots of questions. How do I know? This is true. How do I know God's even real can I believe any of this? I mean, you're telling me a teenage girl got pregnant by ghost and gave birth to God. Right. And I'm skeptical of that every conversation with my brother who prepared me was the debate say I liked this movie says you need to give me five reasons why it's a good movie. And if I. Couldn't do it. And he says, well, it's not really a good movie. So so I began to look at religion that way. And I noticed when I would raise my hand and say, how do you know, God is real the defacto answer was half as you just need to have faith and to give them credit. They thought that was a good answer. Like there was from the heart, and they really meant it. They had faith, but I didn't have it. So I didn't know what they meant by that. And it felt like a cop out answer to me. So one Sunday morning as I'm sitting there, and I'm listening the way was structured is. We would sit in a big group all in a circle, and then we would break out in these smaller groups while the big group was supposed to be the main teaching in a small group. We were supposed to discuss it. But the Sunday school teacher was a lawyer and he loved NASCAR. So for the first thirty forty minutes. He would discuss NASCAR talked to the other people. I went to this race. And we saw this. And there was a wreck and one day. I just raised my hand. And I says I don't thank God gives a rip about your stupid NASCAR. And he says, I think you need to come sit. By me, says no I'm out. I'm done. And so I left church in my to my dad's credit. He's like, yeah. I would've left to. It's totally okay. That you left. That's not what they're supposed to be doing. Here's a youth. Pastor I want you to go meet this guy. He's he's smart. He's intelligent. I think he can answer your questions, and he began to kind of attempt to answer some of my questions, but I really took me under his wing and helped me mature and grow the encourage me to go on this mission trip, and I'm in Griswold, Switzerland at the bottom of the Eiger mountain, you're old enough to remember, maybe they are sanctioned, which is a Clint Eastwood movie, right? I'm right there. It's beautiful is this easy to believe in God. When you're staring at those mountains, and I felt like I was really growing, and I got a phone call that he had gone to his garage. He had a bible in one hand and a gun in the other and he didn't use the bible, but the gun to his head and he killed himself. And he did that because he impregnated one of the students. He also had a newborn at home in two other kids. And at that moment. Taking the whole history of everything I had experienced in the church and religion, I go. Yep. It's not real. It's I'm done. So on the the ride home at the airport. I meet a nun. She's in full. None gown, right. And I walked up to her and I just start preaching, atheism. I says, you know, there is no God. Let me tell you. How I can prove there is no God these people who proclaim to be loving and kind and gracious are impregnating students that they're entrusted to look after. So it was a pretty impactful moment in my life. And I mean, I can go into how I came out of that or hang on just a second. I mean, this sounds a little bit like a a movie, right, right? Right. You because something had happened that it's sort of rock the foundation where you were. Yeah. You had come to a point of disbelief in all of the tenets of Christianity. Your this through it all out. Yeah. Yeah. I was gone. This guy killed himself in his garage. I looked up to him. He was my mentor. My world is shattered. My illusions had been shattered. Screw this. And I'm an atheist and immediately. You started costing people and telling them that there is no gone. Yeah. There was a lady there. And I was like I can't believe she's dedicating her whole life, and she's going to forgo ever finding a husband or anything like that. So I was telling her my story. I was like, hey, I've been questioned this have you ever questioned it. I've always been pretty comfortable with. I don't want to call it confrontation. But unlike you're right. Discussions bashful person. Well, if you were to and we can talk about how you've found God. Or how you discovered your faith or ever a frame? I'll let you frame it anyway. Yeah. For sure. But do you consider yourself a person of faith? Are you do you embrace faith? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I don't think I don't put faith. Of course, it can be a negative. But I don't think it's always defined. I mean, how do you define faith in your heart? Faith for me would be something taking belief in the future based upon what God has done in the past. So Niwas compared to my relationship with my wife that is the most loving relationship that I know outside of God and much of that relationship is based on a faith, you know, 'cause I'm I stood there about ten years ago and proclaimed that I'm gonna love her forever at only known her for less than a year. I proposed after six months, and it begins with an initial emotion. Like, I have this overwhelming feeling of love. And but I had had that before. I'd I'd been in other relationships I've been in love before. But I was making this decision that I didn't have concrete evidence was going to work out. But based upon what I had seen in the past. I believed it would would you consider that more of a trust exercise based on? On history. I mean, your expectation was informed by the fact that you had been closed that you had fallen in love that you had seen her act and react, you had already known each other in a lot of ways. Granted you don't really know somebody to, you know, right right until you get married, and you share that space. You do all that stuff? But I mean, it's isn't blind faith that you had. You're not like, well, it's all just gonna work out because I believe it will you had real knowledge about who. She was how she acted what her. Character was lied. Does. She told the truth is she trustworthy does. She genuinely love me through thick and thin. Those things were realities in your life. That informed your expectation for the future. I wouldn't call that faith. I think it's more of sort of an informed trust with that be fair, which I think is what I don't consider faith blind. And I know that gets thrown out at believers, you just have the problem is I mean, you're talking about scriptures that say, it's the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. I mean, we're talking about the substance of something, which we hope we'll. But hasn't which to me makes no sense? And then you have the evidence for something that we don't have evidence for faith becomes problematic in that way. Does it not? But it's a stand she aided on the revelation of what God has given. So in scripture since we're going to refer to that. And I'd like to say you brought up to my head. So he's a fair question. We see Abraham considered the father of faith, and I don't think Abraham's faith was a blind faith, he moved in progression. As to what he had I experienced. And I think there's one of my favorite extrapolations of that is the story of him being willing to sacrifice his son killing me, which I know is more of your favorite things to me. So so what I know. I know this is one of your favorite things. I'm always frustrated excited. I'd actually heard about you before I go new our connection. Okay. Because I've always tried to listen to the other side as much as possible. Well, what is it about my approach to the Abraham Isaac story that frustrates you? Well for me. It's just the the the framing of a question is always. Part of the battle, right? And so for me as always like why did God ask him to do that? And if he asked you to do it would you, and of course, if I heard a voice in my head told me to kill my child your show. Absolutely would not so not s. Because why I think I would be put in a mental institution. So if I could let me unpack this for a little bit. So I like to ask the question. Well, then why did Abraham do it? Why was Abraham willing? Is there anything culturally that we know about what's going on that to him that seemed like almost a normal thing to do and culturally historically speaking that was what God's asked people to do a lot of times. So when he hears something there is a cultural almost consensus that this happens regularly. So his idea and understanding of God is well, eventually this is what God's asked you. Do he comes from an area where people were sacrificing kids to the God Molex? Right. So when God asked him to do that. And this is one of the first times that got introduces himself. It's his introductory statement. Like, I want to show you what kind of God, I am. So he starts by speaking a language that Abraham already knew this is the gods of the culture, and he begins by associated with that. So he's going to speak your language, and then he does something that the other gods. Don't do. It would be like if. I adopted a kid who had been abused and beaten by a dad his whole life and every day the dad would come home and say go outside and cut off a branch. And I'm gonna whip you with it as hard as I possibly can. And everyday the boy would go out there, and he would cut off the branch, and he would just get beaten. And then I adopted him. And the very first time he gets in trouble. I say go out there and get a branch because of that was the environment that he had always known. He goes and does it. And then when he comes inside instead of beating him, I say, let me take that from you. And let me show you what love is. I'm different than what you've always known. Okay. Oh, I'm in a weird position as host because at work. We're sorta splitting broadcast right seat. So I don't want to dominate. But at the same time, I wanna make sure that that you don't ever feel like interrupting too much now. But I hear specific things that I'm like hang on just a second. I want to pack that and this and this. All right. So you sound like an apologist, which makes sense because you have done a lot of apologize. When you say that a moral deity, and we're already presupposing that Abraham's are real guy, and I'm not prepared to go. Yeah. Okay. Who wrote the books of the bible that talk about Abraham we haven't even gotten into all of that, of course. But let's for the sake of this discussion presuppose that. Okay. It happened. And he was a real, dude. Right. God says as a faith exercise, you need to sacrifice your child human sacrifice in my honor essentially door as own obedient act onto me, you're okay with it. I have to ask you, are you okay with them. Yeah. I'm okay. As a moral person become okay with that. Right. Yeah. I'm okay. Because like in how I just explain. You're saying if it's barbaric time, it's an exercise, right? If it's barbaric time. Right. It doesn't mean that God has to stoop down to the level of the bar Burien in order to relate. I mean, he's got he can make himself aware make himself known. And honestly knowing everything at all times. He already knew right? The type of faith that Abraham had the exercise itself makes no sense to me. And it makes no sense to a lot of people morally who think the God of human sacrifice is is not the God of goodness that they're trying to sell us from the pulpits right that becomes problematic from a moral point of view. I think it's a brilliant teaching moments. And so as if I was to use that as the illustration, I gave for a kid comes and says, go cut the branch off because I know what's going to happen. I don't think it's immoral of me to do that exercise. Because what I'm trying to illustrate is. A drastic difference. If it's an illustration that they're already willing to do because they're culturally understanding that that's typical. I don't think it's wrong for him to enter into time and space and to use the language of the culture as a teaching moment. What was he teaching Abraham by telling him off your kid down? Well, what teacher that that's not the lesson? The lesson is that God provides all the other gods demand. Every every God throughout history. Right. And that's one of the no this God demands. He's a jealous. God demand. Loyalty. He's accepted on occasion. Even human sacrifice be get back to the story of Jeff they and his daughter, right? Give me victory in battle. I will give to you on a burnt offering the first thing that comes out of the door of my house and go figure it's his own child. He executes his kids she volunteers for this. According to the story, which again, I don't buy, but we're looking at it in terms of morality now, God doesn't stop and say, this is crazy. What are you thinking? Gonna this is an innocent child. God says a fine. You know, the the smoke pleases me, whatever it got happens to say at the moment. We're talking about a God. Who does make great demands? And you know, he has especially in the Old Testament. But since Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever and Jesus and God or centrally the same, Pat, right? We are talking about a God that is, you know, territorial and jealous and has very strict guidelines as to how he wants to be served and honored. And so yeah, he provides he provides with a tremendous number of conditions. According to the bible, well, according and according to scripture all those demands are met in Jesus. So let let me take a time out here because I don't want to put the apologised hat on. Right because. Yeah. Yeah. If if it's an argument that you find is a legitimate one. And it happens to fall under the apologetic umbrella. Let's talk about it. Well, it does fall under the apologetic umbrella. But then there's all these presuppositions the like you talked about that. I think are more at the core than just where I mean. 'cause if I was to do the typical apologetic thing, and then there's like eight things there's you know, the shot. Good of information. Look at all these evils. I could go how atheism do you account for evil, and we could go down that road. And then you would present your side, and I would say, well that doesn't show absolute morality, and he was like, well, it's a moral consensus or you can do the dock and sayings, and we can go back and forth and all of the atheist Christians. They do this dance all the time. And I think one of the things that I find really interesting is that we seem to think that we're neutral, but I think neutrality is a myth. Well, we all have our biases in. You know, a measure predisposition. I mean, I'm here for a reason we're having this conversation because I because I once was a true believer. I mean, I think when you walk into a room a lot of times you play the car then yet I used to be an atheist, right, man. I was there. I rejected God until he revealed himself to me. And now, I'm I'm all in. And I'm this guy who was all in and felt like it was absolutely true. And I'd never relieve untapped on the aquarium glass to find out how true it was. Right. And I was in a culture that discouraged questions? They say ask questions, but if you came back with an answer that was not Jesus, right? It's my fault. I'm doing it wrong. I'm being deceived. I've lost my mind. Yeah. Or they make it about me Seth going through midlife. He's lost his mind. He's he's an embarrassment to us. He's been infected with evil, right? As an atheist. I'm looking at religion. And how it had sort of inhibited the way I approached the world the way I approached my fellow human beings. And I think this is a culture that has sort of wrapped up in love language, but underneath there's always that sort of there's a threat, you know, you don't wanna get you. Don't wanna get cast off man. You don't wanna go. You don't want to get this question wrong because there's got hell over here. There's the devil and his minions, and everybody's and even culturally, you don't wanna tell anybody or anything because look at how they treated so. And so I don't even speak to my mother and father for that reason. There is a culture of division believe like us validate us endorse us or else. I that's so I could frame that the exact opposite way. Though. Because from what I discovered as I came out of eight theism, I felt like as you leave that group. There's oh gosh. Now, you're dumber than you used to be. Now, you're believing nonsense. We are more elevated and smarter. He's we saw in the the little atheists. You hang around where he lost his mind the longer a a free thinker. And so we all have these social groups that were a part of and it can be difficult to leave one. But then we find another one, and we surround ourselves with people who agree with us. We are certainly a species of tribes. We talk a lot too much, you know, the instincts, and how tribalism helped us on the African savannah help keep to keep us alive. Right. I mean, it was it was benefit for us to band together. Right. And there are a lot of reasons that that happened. But I'm interested in. How tribalism is often kept us it kept conversations like ours from happening sometimes sometimes, but what I what I do see when I look out into the apologetic circle is Christians are more than willing to engage the top thinkers, so we we have people who aren't necessarily professional apologised that's not necessarily what they do for a living. But we have. Prominent mathematicians, physicists, all these people that are willing to engage this, and I had the impression now I was an atheist before there were the four horsemen of eight theism. You know, we had Anthony flew who became a believer eventually, and but I I liked way not a Christian believer. I'll clarify he became a loose theorist. But I had this. There was this overarching message that we are the enlightened one, and I think we both have there's Christian televangelist an atheist televangelist, and we always go for the low hanging fruit. Oh, absolutely. I, you know, there are certainly people on the front end, there leaders, communicators speeches speakers educators in both camps, and you might call. I just resist that we put these arenas of ideas with people who are helping to spread the ideas. Always in a religious model, an atheist preacher. You're having an atheist church. You are essentially using a religious model church model to frame everybody in who might be standing in opposition to what the church is doing. And I'm not sure I go there. I think I know what you Mia. I'm not using it in a derogatory sense. It's just an evangelist of somebody who, you know, perpetuates an idea or a philosophy contrast it to other world views, but it's not an authoritarian model necessarily where what you say from at a secular convention is going to be challenged in re-challenge than people are in a culture that encourages skepticism to go and dissect and take it apart. There's some of that in the church, but the authoritarian model in the church to look up to a shepherd as a member of the flock to follow their leadership. That's a lot more prevalent in religious circles. I I think is just as prevalent in eight the I heard, Dan Barker. Not too long ago. And he's addressing the crowd. He says come on your smart people. You all know this if you're smart, you know, this right? And he's talking about everybody knows there's no God. And speaking, very, you know, authoritarian, you just know this typically, you know, like, Dan Barker. Yeah. He's a buddy of mine to say everybody to tell everybody else what they know. Yeah. Absolutely. I've heard him say that, you know, all you have to do is walk into a children's hospital to note that there is no God. And you know, I think the argument from needless suffering, or what some people call the argument from evil is right. It's a pretty good argument. It's certainly not a complete one. Look, I think is from the eighth Theus perspective. I think the problem with evil is one of the most difficult ones for believers Terresa with and what I would like to see is people more engage in that argument in a deeper philosophical form instead of just going see because they're sick in the hospital. There is no God. Well, there's great people who have wrestled with those ideas. They're intelligent. They're thoughtful, they're consistent. But yet they haven't made this leap to atheism. And so it I don't I know it's something that should be wrestle with. And it's okay. For Christians to say, I don't know we can talk about the argument itself, though. I think isn't that a is argument to say that if you know, you saw your one of your children who was suffering, and you had the power to intervene, and he'll to save rescue to prevent violence against them to do something. Positive to intervene was immoral creature. Are right there. Right, and yet our standard for God's is to defer and say, you know, whatever he wants to do what he wants to do. And so if my child dies of leukemia, or if a soon NAMI kills two hundred fifty thousand people or on a planet that supposedly designed for us if any of these horrible things happened in the world. I see believers as they have a get out of jail free card. Now hear me for just a second. Come after me, if you'd know her, but. Let's say that I had a child in my child is in a car accident. Ryan terrible accident. When I was religious. I had a get out of jail free out. I had an absolute perfect silly putty moldable answer for whatever the outcome was if the child escapes with no injury. It's a miracle. They should be dead. If he escapes with scratches, it's a miracle that should have been worse if he's paralyzed from the waist down at least he's alive. God must have more for him to do. And if he dies God called him home to a better place where there are no car accidents. There is no pain in one day will be reunited together. So they've created this ever moving goal post where no matter what the outcome is no one ever stops to think why would a God who would mattered who had taken a moment to count the hairs on my head. Not tell me to turn right instead of left or not prevent this particular vehicle destroying driver from plying through the intersection, or why wouldn't he have created some sort of a warning system for me to keep me safe? Why am I operating in a world that seems to operate only by natural laws with? No supernatural intervention, I grow frustrated because they'll those ever moving goalposts make it nearly impossible to pin down a God. Who was supposedly a protector parent. How would you respond to that? Well, it depends on the situation, and I don't wanna take lightly because these are very real situations that I've been apart of. Yeah. Right. I've done funerals for little kids. I got asked to do. A funeral today is terrible Manch. I was visiting with a guy at my church this morning who works at the Nick you and they lost a kid. That was just born the heart was fully formed with the lungs weren't. And that is the brain was fully functioning as the child was passing away. It was registering its parents, and he's a believer in. So was the father neither of them stopped being believers afterwards. So I mean, like the reality of these situations are one we use for argumentation. But there it's a gut wrenching reality. I've lost a child. Sorry. So I didn't try to it. You know, is that when I asked question, I don't throw that out there as sympathy. I don't want to answer. The question is just a reality where I as a believer. I mean, I'm a preacher got I get. I get I you know, like you own me. Right. I work for you. And I you know, you should fix this situation. And so these are things that we wrestle with in a very real. But also, very intellectual thing. I don't I have no time for fairytales, and I don't wanna scapegoat answers. And so as I've wrestled with it personally, if you allow me to tell just a short story to illustrate something that I don't necessarily understand. And then I'll give you the apologetic. Okay. So I'll kind of give you my defense. I was at a church, and there was a woman who was dying of cancer her kids were about to get married. She had been well enough to come to church. She came for one last Sunday wearing abandon overhead to cover her bald head and she's. Talking about. How her relationship with God has been infected by the disease, and she said, very honestly, very sincerely. Having take lots of breaks drink water because her mouth was dry from education. She says I've come to know God's so much through this that if I had the option to go back and not get cancer. I wouldn't do it. Because the value of knowing him is greater than my sickness. And I said, I don't get that. So that that's a story. I'd I'd I heard that. And I go, no, I would always go back now before you interject. So the apologetic of it as I was talking with this guy who just all a child pass away today. I says how do you maintain any kind of faith in that? And we began to have a discussion about the moral goodness of God. I say if you had used the exact same argument you use. I says if God has ability to stop it. Why doesn't he and because? Because his power is. So supreme because he could not only interject a net. He could interject an any evil where do we draw the line? Then I say, okay. If you're going to save this baby, then save all babies, if you're going to protect them from this sickness, then you have to protect them from any harm. If you're gonna protect it from any harm any misdeed. They've to protect from any misdeed protected from any bad thought, you have total power, so take total control. And all the sudden, you remove the free will now, you don't sure no you don't even have to draw the line. And you're gonna say God, I want you to draw the line with my child, but don't draw the line with any other situation where evil might have or sickness or badness is I'm going to art because it's our personal child. Of course, we want him to intervene. Right. I just don't buy it. Let me tell you. Why first of all I'm speaking. I think we're speaking about the same. God, you know, whatever you ask in my name. I will do it. The father might be glorified in the sun. I mean, God is a God of miracles. God is a God of answer prayer. If you believe the New Testament, you believe Jesus walked around healing, all kinds of maladies, even raise the debt. Right. And so the idea that he would make a promise to us that you know, if we come together that that and petition him that he will be there for us in our hour of need, and then to leave us scrambling and wondering where he is in that for me becomes hugely problematic. And again, we're presupposing the existence of Jesus I'm not saying, I'm Jesus myth assists, necessarily, there may have been a guy that I think the story was based on. But I I have I have an interesting time trying to reconcile the God who is so concerned about us that we are worth more than the sparrows that might fall from the sky, but will allow a mother to carry a child for nine months, and then lose it in the delivery room. And then we still give God the glory this to me reeks of a kind of slave. I think emotional, and intellectual slavery and many people are lauded for this. You know, nothing broke my faith. Nothing Cozma to doubt. I was raised in a culture where doubt is either a sin? It's weakness or an attack. I mean, we don't raise our kids. She just saying, we we we share, you know, we've shared a book when you were a believer. We had the bible I have the bible and the bible doesn't condemned out. It tells us to test everything come let us reason together. But, but if I may I mean, not to interrupt, but you know, when Jesus is chastising. Thomas. He says, you know, the one who doubts is like the wave of the sea that's blown and tossed by the wind that person shouldn't expect to receive anything from the Lord. I mean, he was chastizing Thomas for saying, look, I'm going to need to see some nail holes. And I'm gonna need this see the spear. I need some evidence that it's really you actually Thomas for that reason is my favorite disciple. Because he's like, I need some peer review on this reappearance of you, dude. You know, we call him doubting Thomas Jesus did it Jesus with more than glad to show him his hands. But you understand though, coming from Christianity, we live in a culture where if you doubt people start. I mean, you can hear the sirens going off. Wait a minute SAF has some doubts. There's a problem. There's someone who's off the reservation. He's leaving the camp. He's not with us completely. We should just accept that. God always knows best. As a pastor. Tell me you don't see this culture out there. But I don't know if it's a response to biblical theology. I think it is more a cultural ignorance. Like, I say, I think a lot of the things that eight Theus don't like our reaction to Postmodernism not necessarily Christianity. The are based on Christianity talk. Right. Sorry. If we're going to be honest for sure sure. But from everything that you've said like, you know, the church does this church does this. I said, well, the people in the church might do that. But you can very quickly find places in universities. And academia, where they're going to challenge every belief you have and they're not going to settle for just passive answers. You can't just say well just have eight they there. There's the history of Christian thought is so deep in such a huge, well that I don't think atheism in some source popular, atheism, which thanks to YouTube and all that stuff. Now, everybody has an opinion and you can follow an atheist. We were talking about. I don't mean to change subjects, but how people love it when I come in the. Say oh, he's a former atheist both of our sides love at that. We changed teams. Like, oh, you know. I it gets you in the door in some ways. And some ways though, I think it also allows you to speak with some measure perspective. Like, I would hope you don't think many people that I know speak about the character of the eighth Theus. They don't speak about flesh and blood three dimensional human beings, moral creatures good human beings, who genuinely want goodness. There is a a caricature of what the eighth easiest is. I think it's the other. We're back to tribes, right? We're also back to I need to defeat the caricature of an atheist because the reality the atheist is too much for me to digest. Right. And we see a lot of that in every trot. But don't you think they're maybe even more? So there's the character of the Christian. There is in hot culture. Have you ever seen an intellectual Christian on a sitcom? It's the Ned Flanders. It's it's the moron. Right. We've had these conversations in my own life. You know, I'm married to a believer in God. Right. It blows people's minds. I mean their heads literally top off of their next. They're like how is this possible? I would like to see that. It's because I only get one show a night. Say literally literally the idea that I would see her first has a flesh and blood human being who is beautiful and someone I wanna be with someone who lights up my life. I don't love her because she agrees with me. I love her because she's beautiful human being right? And I think you know, it's it's hard to see. And this is true in eighth ius circles as well. But it's it's a conversation. We've often had on my radio show that you know, I wasn't an idiot. When I was a believer. Right. I wasn't all these pieces of invective that you're throwing out. I wasn't a bad human being when I was a believer. My I q didn't change one way or the other. When I was a believer. These are talking about ideas. And I wish we could start talking to each other and tweeting each other like human beings. I don't have to be like you or agree with you to necessarily connect with you as part of the human experience. And so I would agree. I mean, you, and I we've seen the tribes and how they the in group outgrew theme is is fully at play Mormons. Do this thing. Where as soon as you start challenging you're labeled anti Mormon which is to say that you are an enemy, right and Christians are often labeled anti science as though Christians and served Francis. Bacon didn't play a major role in helping form. The foundation of what we know as science as though we we'll go to Ken ham who I would chastise along with you. Right. You you go to the ark. And there's dinosaurs in there that is a segment of Christian thinking, and there's a lot of times, I think Christians are harder on Christians than even atheist are because there are aspects that should be go. Wait a minute guys. We don't have to believe the world is, you know, five six thousand years old. There's a range of thought and in atheism. There's a range of thought I haven't asked if you're a naturalistic atheist, and and I go there's only matter how do we know that you, and I are even have the free. I will to have this discussion or just you know, like we there's there segments, and I would like to see atheist when they talk about Christians talk about the those who have asked themselves the difficult questions. Just because a scientist happens to be religious doesn't validate a religious argument. I mean, we find people who are atheist, but they're not atheist for rational reasons, they ain't never explored it. They assumed that. There was no God they were raised by parents. It was never thing in their lives. They have never been indoctrinated those things come into play. So, you know, hey, look, we have scientists ex. We have Francis Collins. I mean that is not really an argument as much as it is. We it probably is an argument for it's wrong to say that people are stupid because they are religious because we know right? That's not the case. We know that there. There were wonderful Christians and terrible Christians that are wonderful atheist and they're terrible atheists. That were wondering human beings across the spectrum and terrible human beings across the spectrum. I need to come back to a couple of things by the way. This isn't a tandem broadcast. Right. Pastor Caleb more Seth Andrews the resident. Hey, then I keep waiting for the altar call. We'll haven't seen one yet went to the yoga. All right. Invitation and the will plate will be passed. And I was talking about the culture of people in the church who do this or do that. I was still ruining it though in the scriptures of his rooting it in the idea that you know, Jesus wasn't kind to doubters in the bible. You know, there there isn't a lot of room, and I don't I don't see that. And I've read the bible made. I don't see you read this, quote, you the scripture, you know, the one who doubts that person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. This is a top down culture where they say you need to believe belief comes. I doubt is a problem. And yet there are so many instances in our lives. When doubt is a protective mechanism the car door opens and some stranger tells your kid your daughter to get in. I got some candy down saves her life. Somebody says I can make you Andrea grand with only a ten thousand dollar investment are doubt keeps us from getting scammed. We use doubt all the time. We use it in terms of other religions other political parties, and yet there seems to be an edict within scripture born out of the bible, right? That doubt is problematic, and we should try to focus more. On acceptance belief stick with the home team. I don't see that. No, no. In fact, when Jesus is talking to Thomas he standing in front of him. And here he has this person. He's known in Italy for a long time. He's like, okay, you're there. But it's such a huge claim. I don't I I don't think it's wrong for him to doubt because the claim is so big, but he's already studying in front of him. He's like all right. I gotta put my hand in the holes. And so he had logical reason to believe that Jesus had done what he said he was going to do. He's standing there. But even in the face of evidence, he's not certain now he's got to put his finger in a wound. What's the problem? Yeah. I don't see one not much the problem with Thomas's action with his request. Why would he be chastised by Jesus for just saying man, I want to know as much as I can? No, I want to verify make sure right? Wouldn't that be something that we should applaud in someone like Thomas? Yeah. I think so. And I don't think Thomas does not applaud him. I don't think him saying like, hey, because you're doubting your evil. It's like look there are those who are going to believe on. You're not. I never said he no, no. I don't think flaky your flaky. You're all over the you are not believing belief comes first, absolutely. And I I think when you come you when you enter sort of that a third -tarian model where the authorities says believe I don't ask too many questions. See then you're following up with what I don't even though. So we're zero in on this yet if we take scripture as a whole test everything see if there's anything good, you know, exactly when and who gets when people are receiving this information, he compliments the Berea. He's like at least you guys are testing to see if anything that I'm saying is actually true or not like you're going on your religious history. And you have these books and you're hearing this new information, you're taking your examined to see if whether it's true or not as as Jesus believer. How do you test the veracity of the Jesus story? How do you know, how do you know, any of the books of the bible are what they are written by who they say, how do you get to the foundational texts of your faith? Who wrote the book of Genesis? Let me start simple. Yeah. The book of Genesis. We don't know. So we have some good idea. But I don't necessarily need to know we say, it's a tributed Moses. But we also see evidence that there were editors within it. And I like bar Ehrman. I like I've read his books on like misquoting Jesus and stuff like that. And Bart Erman was taught by a Christian his mentor. His idol a guy. He looked up to in respect to that taught him everything he knows about textual criticism showed Bart. All these maybe what some would call errors textual variants in the book. But the guy who showed him that never left his faith because we understand those textual variants for what they are were aware of them. We see how they work and we understand the process of transmission. We know how it works and Bart Erman what he is very popular. They're in very well known especially in your crowd. My listeners that they don't know. Bart Erman was a Christian who studied textual criticism and then became a atheist. He's atheists agnostic deceased. Rate at around around. He's a historian. He's written a lot of books. His historian is a textual variance is what we call contradictions. Yeah. Now. Well, then you'd have to get rid of almost all ancient history at all. But most ancient history is not positioning itself as an inherent word of God. The divinely breathe instruction manual for living and call a very a contradiction there you're gonna say, oh, it's going to get to. So this isn't about is it divinely inspired. It's just asking the question has this changed over time. And Bart Erman says no it really has. There might be a few small areas. And he says this at the end of his book after he makes us huge case. He says at the end of. It's not misquoting Jesus. It's the one after that. I was just interrupted by Jesus interrupted. And he said it, you know, in person several times that actually we can be very reliable. What it says and the places where there's real conjecture don't affect any theology. The reason he doesn't believe is because as a historian that does not allow for miracles. He says because his field is a historian in historians can't account for miracle. So I don't believe in miracles. But he will at least say that scripture has not been changed over time, especially in any area that would affect theology which show that's not a contradiction that that's a misuse of the words there. Well, if if because the by I don't think he rejected because it cannot account for miracles. I think he just doesn't buy it. I mean, he saying they would have to support the idea of miracles more than the claim that a miracle happened. But if you get into even the first two books of the book of Genesis the order of creation. These are contradictory stories there. Four different conflicting accounts of of Jesus's tomb, his empty tomb. I mean, if we get into the basics of biblical claims what I often hear from apologist is well, it's like reporting everybody brought a different perspective, and it was all written down and Sheree. I mean, some of the stuff looks different. But it's because they were looking at it from different angles, and none of the really important stuff contradicts itself. And I always come back to this idea that a divine creature would give this critical message and place it in the hands of the same species that screwed up everything else in the world. And we would end up now in the year twenty nine thousand nine with literally thousands of different variations of a faith. That is born of God who supposedly is not the author of confusion. I mean, can you think of any religion more confusing than Christianity in the present day, atheism? Atheism is simply the Disney leap in God to this. Not a religious client is a worldview because it onto your children does not think about eighty you did the world come from. It didn't come from anywhere. No, no, no. We're not even sure if you actually exist you could be a figment of our imagination. So that me and no, no, no. You can't you cannot throw out the as a religion and allow me very generous. Okay. The idea that someone walks in and makes a positive claim. And I say I'm not convinced is not in itself a dogma. It's like I'm not convinced. It doesn't make any suppositions about how the world began or whether or not I think there was a 'Lions or whether there's a singularity or it says nothing else, it doesn't even say whether I came to a non belief in deities rationally it simply it's not making a positive declared ab- statement, God cannot exist there there never was a God. I'm saying I'm just not convinced. I do not believe it. I am an a theorist. It's not a dog. Ma it's simply a disbelief, and I say that on purpose because I know it riles the feathers a little bit it does. It's just because there's a lot of times from apologised. So forgive me. It's a bit of a hot button. Right Cordell, stand back, and let us I was I was thinking about that. And I want to get to the textual thing right after this. Okay. But if somebody is an atheist and their kid comes to them and starts asking questions, and that and the person says, I don't think there's very good evidence for it. They have already put in that kid's mind where the weight like what how good the evidence might be. Right. So they've already said the evidence isn't very good that is a propagation of a world view. So you in itself may not be a religion or a world view as just a simple statement. But it quickly can become one. Short break when I come back. It's more with pastor Kayla. Morgan talk about Genesis the book of Genesis as poetry. We're gonna talk about why Caleb thinks that ethical behavior by non believers in Christ is a kind of moral plagiarism. Those are his words we're going to do a little street epistemology with the bible and while we're having religious debates. I ask pastor Caleb more about marvel versus DC all that and a whole lot more in just a second. Hang on. And now an ad from dad. All right. Save money on car insurance when you bundle home and auto with progressive take these oh, what is this? Good. Wow. Where did you get this? I'm talking to you with the hair. Yeah. Where did you get this? Good stuff. Solid. That's not veneer that solid stuff. Progressive can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurance discounts not available in all states or situations. My patrons. Get this broadcast totally commercial free. And they get the show two days early every single week. Thank you for your support on patriotic at patriotic dot com slash Seth Andrews. This is the second half of my conversation with local pastor Caleb more. We were talking about an atheist worldview and the ability or impossibility of being able to raise kids without predisposing them to our views our biases our way of seeing the world if I buy that you can certainly predisposes you need. Children with and you can do this with politics. You can do it with what I'm gonna buy Ford or Chevy. Right. I mean, I get that. But I think the difference might be we've done several shows on secular parenting. Right. How do I keep from dogmatically? Informing what my kid thinks. And I want to teach them to look both ways before they cross the street. I wanna to teach them not to talk to strangers. And I want to teach them not to do this to keep them safe. I wanna teach them to say, please. And thank you. Right. But I don't wanna tell them what they philosophically or even theologically feel about the world. How do I avoid that? And it it's definitely a minefield. But there's a difference between the culture that I was raised in where this is true Jesus is real. And this is just the way it is. Which is how many fundamentalist religious homes are this is what you think the right? This is my religion. My parents decided is how the mean goes, and there's a difference between that and. Saying child, this is kind of how I feel and think about it. This is how I fall I think you're going to have to determine for yourself. Now, this is imperfectly which is sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. But to then create a critical thinking process where the child becomes an agent of discovery in his or her world. So that you aren't just spoon. Feeding your worldview, but they are able to go out and have the critical thinking tools to discern decide and discover and explore and find out who they are what they think and why they think it on their own terms. There's a difference between that and sort of spoon feeding Jesus and do some young child going to you know, Sunday morning Sunday school. We all pass on what we think is good and true in right now to the level if it's just berated don't question this, then I would say that is faulting back. That's why we see a lot of people when they graduate high school. They graduate their parents faith as well. So their college, and they reproduced to other ideas introduced to other ideas, which is a shame that because I believe Christiania so rich in electoral that we should introduce people to other ideas when I took over at this church here they had a little youth group. I spent the first couple of weeks just talking about different religions as hey, let's look at this religion. This look at this religion. Let's let's kind of examine all these things. And I always stress people you can't survive on your parents faith. You have to ask question is this what you believe, and I truly believe people will if they will look into it and think deeply about it. I think truth is a person. Now you talking about the bible, and the how the gospel narratives about the resurrection are contradictory. And to me, I'm just I'm almost flabbergasted as like that to me is dealing with the low level that the low hanging fruit and. Head of reaching up to academia, where we know the type of literature that it is is Greco Roman biography. We know that does everyone know that. Well, hopefully, does the lowest common denominator who hasn't been to seminary who picks up the bible, then expects God to take us at his word. Do they know all that? Well, I'm the lowest see I don't have any college degree, and I've never been to seminary. But she's so I was a student gives scripture because I ask questions. So I if people aren't willing to ask questions there's not too much. I can help them with it is too much for us to expect a God to not contradict himself a perfect God. I see I don't think he does. So if he's writing if you stories thrown in green is not a contradiction. And if he has the power to correct, the author who was putting pen to paper and say this is actually a contradiction. You need to get your facts. Right. This is that precept was trees precept positional idea that you're presupposing it should look like a twentieth century textbook. I got I want you to write that for me. Now should just look like something that agrees with it self. I think not saying it has to look like any particular century decades. It has to to reflect us a specific style is it in agreement with itself as a perfect document should be. And if it starts to disagree is this not a revelation that we're looking at a text that was created by different people in different eras all with different agendas human beings with human agendas, creating the texts saying that they were inspired in the name of God to do. So the agenda of the disciples to say these things must have been to get themselves killed because they knew that was most. What would happen? But if you look at the New Testament and the gospels themselves. I mean, we see the authorship of those or what? Forty years after the supposed death of Jesus Christ. I mean, it's thirty five's. Not I witnessed reporting. Right. I mean, the the gospels are written in the third person. Now, they're not even written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And so the idea that we automatically say that will will. Of course, it happened. I mean in these people died business the first question we ask. Hey, wait a minute. Did the story actually happened is it based in truth? And how do we know if it's true or not, and it we don't know? Yeah. I don't want to. I can't concede those points because I think it doesn't deal with the real scholarship where we say. Yeah, they didn't write their name on it. And of course, Paul did. But Matthew doesn't put Matthew John doesn't put John. But most people didn't win their writing those type of letter. So as totally consistent, and then we bring in this whole new methodology, and we say, speak my language, or I don't believe it. Okay. So it speaks is speaks historically accurate methodology for the people. Understood it at the time, and we agree with that. When it comes to any other issue. The real fact is has a miracle in it, and we don't like the miracle. So then we'll look at it with a it's hyper skepticism that says, well sure, I'll understand Alexander the great. And it might have these things that I don't agree with the form that they wrote it in there, not necessarily worried about chronology the way we are on hold. I don't hold Socrates Aristotle and hold. You know, Homer hold these authors to the same standard as the perfect God who was selling perfection. And so when I see flaws or contradictions or reflections of pretty superstitious and barbaric time period in human history. I'm like, well, of course, of course, it it looks barbaric. Of course, there is human sacrifice. Of course, there were horrible bloody tribal wars. Of course, there was racism and slavery. And of course, women different from today. We there were so women were worth so much less than men, blah, blah, blah. And you see that and others. And you're like, yeah. Well, we look at the bible, and somehow we're supposed to defer and say, I accept it as the truth of God instead of a reflection of again, a very bar Barrick and superstitious time where people were extremely caught up in mythology gods devils punishment damnation. Holy wars. Those types of things I feel like you described the last ten years, right? So you say, oh, it's such a bar Barrick ignorant time. We were awfully proud of ourselves these days, and we're awfully self congratulatory about our intellect. There's extremely intellectual people in those times as well. And there's areas in times where they're not barbaric and there's not holy wars and yet oh deflection Kayla. I'm just saying we this were if you're saying, oh, yeah. You know, they only roasted people over the open flame over in this zip code, but over here, they ended disagree on this say, we still facing children at the altar was just different alter. So if we look at a time period when people thought the earth had corners, right? We look at a time period when people felt like they had to to rest, the heart out of out of a sacrifice to make the sunrise as the I think it was the Mayans did on their temples. If you look. Overall humanity, we have tremendously problematic and occasionally extremely violent world today. But not the world of our ancestors. If you read like Steven pinker got a tremendous book called the better angels of our nature that talks about how that despite the fact that in the Twitter verse we see the minute by minute awfulness that people have done to each other overall. We have less sickness. We have less famine we have less suffering. We have less war, certainly tribal wars. We are less bloodthirsty. We're not putting people in the Coliseum in the middle of New York City and letting Tigers eight one religion or another anymore. So while we have our problems, we have evolved are knowledge has evolved. We do have flat earthers how does. Documentary. And and so in this is how I want to be cynical. So I watched that, and I go it is incredible at the level that we can be self deceiving. I met a flatter one day, and he was at a comic book convention. So we were talking he said, oh, I'm a Christian too. And then he goes into. So do you know the earth is flat? And I go, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Buddy. Look, I know what I believe to the outside world. Already sounds weird enough. Don't start filling out there. I was like, so if you're gonna if you want to tell people about Jesus, please keep your mouth shut about flat earth. But the level of self deception is still extremely amazing. It's amazing. When you see the documentary, you see though that they come together and kind of an insular tribe got their community. They don't allow anybody else really to infiltrate with bad ideas. And they've got a very much Spurs as the other mentality. Right. But in going back. The bible. I mean the bible if you look at the early versus of Genesis it says that the. The earth has a firmament over it. I mean that makes no sense. You know, there's all kinds of weird claims about the nature of the earth that don't reconcile reconcile with the real world. Right. The scientific method was not even known. They're not writing a science book. But God knew yes, God knows everything. And he is breathing. Those words onto the page through is proxy. Absolutely. So why in the world doesn't God say, hey, it's this fear. They don't care is not relevant to the story. Rec- isn't all it's all these. It's again, I want it to be a history book I wanted to be a science book. I just wanted to be indoor clicked or not in conflict with with reality. Well, if you take Shakespeare and you throw it in a completely different arena, then you can be upset at Shakespeare. But of Genesis has poetry Shakespeare's. Not not saying he's God. And then I have to pledge my life. Lifelong allegiance to him with an eternal consequence, actually, honest. It's understanding the literary form and taking it at that. I am not taking able as a merely a work of literature. It is a divinely breathed perfect instruction manual for living. That's how it's been sold through the ages. It's the Terminator ency is not in scripture. You are not all about an errant bible. I need to know what I'm trying to find out is what is your standard for God's instruction manual. Do. You. Do you think errors from perfect? God makes sense. I don't take it literally. I take it literally. What did you ease? It has. So if Genesis is predominantly poetry, and it is. Just saying, hey, God created this is not saying, here's the literal. What he did on one day? I don't eat some people with that. And I say or who wrote it doesn't matter when it was written. How is written the foundation? It was written yesterday that might matter the cr- the creation of the book the found. I mean, dis- discerning the source of the material should this not be paramount for us who did ride it? You know, who certainly wasn't that. I witnessed to win the waters were over the service of the deep and that God said let there be light. And there was no eyewitness alive at that moment. One of the great questions. I've always heard is if God created the sun on the fourth day, but you require the rotation of the earth in relation to the sun to have the day. How it four days already passed? We can get into those kind of questions, but those are what I ask people who believe in a young earth. Right. So I would say. The literary forms. I don't think people in your position give enough credence to the level of heavy lifting that goes on in understanding those things accurately so are not written avoid, and then we want to throw all these say well in order for me to believe it, I need this this this this and this, but we don't do that with other historical documents to say, hey, at least it fits the form. Well, whether we believe whether it happened or not it's historically accurate in the way, they would have understood it, but so far. No corroborating history books that have other eye-witnesses saying that. God said let there be like, I mean, you've got the bible. So then you're quoting the bible to prove the bible, which is kind of like quoting the Koran to prove the Koran or the date is to prove the vadis. I mean, what other book do we use that suppose supposedly proves itself that becomes a little bit problematic. Shouldn't we seek outside cooperation that this is really the truth. Well, I don't disqualify the bible is a historical books. I don't give that because it's written in the context of other historical documents are realize who their who's author, you don't know. So it's a history book, and we don't know who wrote it. We can't source it. But it's we're not one hundred percent certain about certain books because they didn't put their name on it. But we have good. Guesses strong leanings that there's no reason to doubt the history of the claims made about and you like you go to a seminary, I know a few professors these are things they talk about. But it's it's not like a destructive thing to the faith to go. Oh, well, we don't know who wrote it. So we throw it out. And so that seems to be more of an aha on y'all. I don't think it's an I don't think it's throw it out. It's how do I is a neutral observer tried to verify the claims made if it's only written in the bible, and it's one of many books that have creation stories that involves supernatural things speak to Islam and Hinduism and all those if I'm a neutral observer, how do I not then take the Koran's origin story or the vadis origin story and say, well, you know, it's it's the history book for my religion. And therefore. Is true as a neutral observer. How would tell the difference? How would I choose right as we said before the nickname neutrality, but that's a side point. Oh, okay. So the the history of Jesus if Jesus was who he said, he was then I think that would make a strong argument for the validity of the rest of scripture. If Jesus actually was in did who said he was and you you kind of mentioned that you might be off. You're not in the Mississippi camp. But we've got we know that Jesus existed. The we know that how do, you know, tactic his plenty of the younger Josephus? So we have non Christian historians writing not too far afterwards who talk about Jesus, right Jesus literalist or historic. But you know, we're also talking about a time when everybody had their gods and their gods bigger than your God. My dad can beat up your dad kind of God's we know that there were celestial deities. And there were a lot of different things that were borrowed from one deity to the other. I I need more than a book that exposed to prove itself to know that Jesus was not just alive to me. Whether he was a man or not is incidental the God, man. Jesus did the God man Jesus arrive. And then even if I was to go there now that opens up a whole other can of worms, right? And the idea that Bart Ehrman would say, yes, Jesus was a real person. I just don't think he rose from the dead. It is by far the best explanation for why Christianity exploded because I'm gonna take Matthew Mark, Luke and John written as they are in the literary form they is they are as. Interviewing eyewitnesses talking with people who are disciples of John who have firsthand experience with all this information saying we saw a dead guy come back to life. And all of a sudden, they go from being, you know, disbanded and upset too willing to die for their faith. Now, lots of people in religions die for their faith. That's that's not uncommon people. Fly a building a plane into ability for their faith. But there's a thing that separates them from all the other people who are martyred everybody else dies for what they hope to see. They're going to be greeted by all these virgins and all this stuff the disciples died for what they claim to have seen. They're not gaining power, popularity wives money. They're not gaining any of this kind of thing that would motivate somebody to lie on that behalf. They didn't prosper doing isn't really validation that it happened. And. And if I was to quote, you the Koran to tell you that you know, all is the only God and Mohammad is his prophet. And I was sort of selling that narrative. Would you accept the Koran then as God's perfect word or God's instruction manual for living in the Koranic teachings using the same rules that you're using with the bible. Yeah. I've I've read the Koran when I'm sorry because that's boring book, I've read the book of Mormon if you wanna get even more boring as martyrs. Mark Mark Twain says it's like chewing tinfoil sort of salmon next for the is. Yes. I read the boxer Vida. And I all in this search of. Those rules, though, if I use the same criteria that you're using for the bible, right and say, they had no reason to lie and many of them paid with their lives. According to the stories, and I accept it. Would you then accept Smyth faith claims regarding Islam or my religious claims regarding Islam, I think this historical inconsistencies in the Koran on you're talking about yet coming textual variance much later, not textual variants because there's there's a difference between contradictions and textual variants a textual variant is if you write a word twice we have a manuscript where a guy falls asleep while he's writing and we see his pin drift off. But that haven't been talking about I've been talking about duplications in textual or duplications in words are nouns verbs. I've been talking about that there are contradictory stories being told sometimes even within the same books or chapters. Those aren't textual variants. They are changes in a story. To alter the outcome of the story in a book that is supposed to be perfect. And so I'm asking, you know, with your acceptance of the bible, if I was a neutral observer and someone came to me, and they were pitching the Koran or the vadis using your criteria. What do you think? I mean, how would I tell the difference? How would I know which one to hold onto to textual criticism plays a lot? And so where you come in. And I'm still I can't let it slide because I think it's just highly inaccurate. And like, well it gives you know, the resurrection account of Jesus. So we have did it happen at this time of day or at this time of day words, there that how did you just betray him? How to do these are basics? We have. What we want is the newspaper article what we get is a portrait. So like a I know you've heard this, right? So a painting is different than a photograph. And you're going to choose to say certain things in a different way to communicate to your audience. And it was not wrong for them to do that. Because that was how the people who received. It would have understood it. We have a a manuscript on how to write history from the days of Jesus. Right. So there was a a historian. He was basically writing on how to write biographies, and he was saying we're not worried so much about chronology and every single little detail or even certain consistencies what we're worried about is communicating the character of the person that we're talking about. So like, the gospel of John's focusing on the person of Jesus so other side characters follow way in don't get mentioned and other places. They're trying to do different things. And we see some character. Step more into the limelight. But. For most of the contradictions. They can be ratified in the other ones. They can't. And that's okay. Because we understand the way they are writing as far as textual criticism is concerned. So if there seems to be a discrepancy, I'm not I'm not. Like, I'm not upset about it. And it doesn't impact how I read it. I understand what they're doing. And I'm going to grant them the -bility to write for the people that are writing to instead of interjecting a twentieth century model, especially western model. I don't think accuracy is is a modern model. Accuracy is simply the idea that a book that is supposedly divinely true. I mean, what's his true book is the bible true? If I was I had a great time meeting you and then when I got home, I told my wife, I had a great time meeting you and your dog. Now, I'm sorry. Both are true now. Now, you're skating like an apologist, you're skating because I'm not talking about use the term apologised and a draw a Tory way. I do. I don't I I don't think that a God who really cared about me needs an apologist. Why would God need some human being to explain what he really means? If God cares about me. And he has the power to conjure the. Verse. I would I I've asked this many times. I remember when I was coming out of my faith. You know? Part the curtain of the sky from me, and you know, make sense and tell me what it is. It's going on. And a God that genuinely cares about me. Instead has apologised most of who can't agree with each other about the basics. They don't agree on the nature of baptism eternal salvation. Whether you get the Holy Spirit when you're saved or do you have to say, a separate prayer, the nature of hell or whether hell even exists. These are the basics and apologised to each other to ribbons over it. Why am I stuck talking to the apologised? I'm desperate for a message from the source. Why do you think God needs a human being to explain him? Well, I don't think he needs one. But I think because we're so stubborn sometimes he sends people along to help us overcome barriers. Why send peers nothing wrong with? Well. This is we shouldn't be on the garden. I we screwed up the world and had to be drown required. A human sacrifice on the cross. We are so corrupt. We've gotten everything wrong. Why is he? Still relying on dance. God show me write my name in the sky. We would figure out a way to go. You know, what that's that's airplane? But let me say that. I don't buy that either. Because when I was coming out of a theorem, and I'm trying to figure out I wasn't looking for God, I wasn't looking for atheist. So I totally I would emit from the very beginning. And I'm glad to I had emotional experience that changed me to see ISM. But I've had lots of emotional experiences that were wrong. So I began to look at. Okay. So here's the world that exists. Is there a God that explains this, right? And we use things like we talk about presuppositions. I know you've had some conversations about this. But I think this is really stuff that atheists Nita wrestle with we use reason a lot, and we're using logic. These things are immaterial unchanging in universal the God of scripture fits that description. I if I have let's claims that's a claim. It's nothing that I know. No, it's a claim you're making. I'm asking though that if he is the God who has counted the hairs on my head who is cared so much for me that he would sacrifice his son on my behalf. He would know what I would need to believe in him. Right. He's got he knows everything. He would already know what it would take to convince me. Why do you think? I haven't experienced that. Yeah. That's a question. I was wondering I'm like what is it? Did you think would it take? Because the fact that we're talking about a guy that lived two thousand years ago in a small the fact that we're discussing this right that he has made himself so evident that we have more New Testament manuscripts than any other historical manuscript that we look at the laws of not just logic mathematics, everything for rational conversation to take place would require, and I know you might not give into this. But without some kind of being outside of time space and matter. Logic and reasoning cannot just exist in our minds. It's not a social stress at the aesthetic position. Not know the Jamir axiomatic, we just take them because their Dacian, and they work. Well, they they weren't because they cast it and verified to work now work before they were them they work because they reflect the supernatural world that we haven't tested them. You can't tell me that they worked because you simply do not know we know that they worked because we tested them. So I don't start with the presupposition that they worked. I think you start with experimentation you start by working it out and with logic without logic. We presuppose logic in order to even have a rational discussion. It's true that we can really saw solve the problem of what my friend Delahunt helix to call hard solipsism when he's speaking about. Yes. How can we know something beyond our own minds? And the truth is is that it's it is difficult for us because we can. Can't prove that we're not all in the matrix or not all plugged into the matrix. And this is all a simulation. The philosophers will have a field day with that. But I can test the rules of the reality that I live in. And I know that this plus this equals this, and I know that this measures to this and this reacts this way against this. And that's where we start. We experiment within the reality that we are in. And that's the best. We've got but two then take the leap that the reality exists because it was conjured by what is essentially a divine wizard if you will a deity God figure who has a proper name who then once a personal relationship with me personally out of all the hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe. He picked me that takes huge leap that not all of us are prepared to make especially on faith. We would like it to be demonstrated. Why we should take such a leap, and I think a worthy. Deity would welcome those questions. He'd be like, you know, what you're absolutely right. It's on me to properly prove myself to a being who needs this kind of understanding. Right. The the kind of default while they're just axiomatic. I think it just removes any chance you've taken the system you're using to figure out whether there's a God or not you've using the wrong system. You're not even allowing to say, well, I don't know how I don't even know if I and I. I didn't say that. We could be a brain in a VAT in those conversations. Always I've sure you find those borings like how do we little tedious? No, we're not really here. Like, well, who am I talking to? Right. I think we operate as as entities in the reality that we live in. And I believe that we are able to operate act and react in a natural world. Right. You and I are sitting across from each other. I have no reason to think that we aren't I have no reason to think that we are a brain in VAT that we're plugged into the matrix. I operate based on faith. The is it faith if I reach over and shake your hand. It could be we have contact could be electrical signals sent from the computer enjoyed coulda. Shoulda shoulda abstract yourself into madness. Right. But I don't automatically shake your hand and say the reason that you, and I are here sharing this space together is because you were conjured by a deity who now says that humankind are his. Adopted children. That's a big leap. And I understand why it's attractive to people. I understand the appeal of religious belief and faith, I understand why it's hard leave, especially when it becomes your community becomes your way of life. When it alleviates the fears about death. I mean, a temporary life for many people can be scary. And I think that brings me to the next question that I have when you look at me as somebody who doesn't hold to a heaven, right or a hell, certainly. Who who really thinks the universe doesn't care? If I I. But I I am alive. I have a few decades hopefully here on this earth. Do you think my life's worth living Kalem? Do you think my life has value? Yeah. I mean, look, we're we've just met each other. And I'm not basing my opinion on you based upon what certain tenants, or if you agree with me or not. Yeah. You have value because like me and all of the human beings were created the image of God were imagers of God. And so I would say, of course, you're a person of worth in value. And I see that. Now, you don't need to be a Christian to believe that. But I think as many philosophers would say that is a foundation that Christianity gifts that if atheism were true. Then why value other people why why not conquer kill? And I don't I'm not going. I want to be careful and not go into if you're an atheist, and you should be doing this because I think these can have a very strong moral code. And I think they can never believe in God and be nice and generous. But in some way. As I think, that's like moral plagiarism. They can live all that out. But they have to sit on the lap of God to slap them in the face. So you're saying that if I'm if I love my wife or if I'm. Charitable in my my heart. If I have joy in goodness. And all the stuff we want out of this existence. And I do so without a religious backstory without a religious belief. I have to borrow from your God. I have to borrow those things from the one who created them. Don't let me put words in your mouth. You tell me if that's an accurate the ultimate justification for. Why you want to be good? And why you recognize other people have worth in value doesn't come from a naturalistic worldview that just how do you? How do you prove that? Well, if naturalism is true, right? And there is no God. Then you have a computer over here at the outside of it is the hardware inside is a software in you do input. If there is no God than I'm just add Vance 't instincts of my DNA. I'm preprogramed. This is my computer. My DNA is a software, and whatever you say is the input, and I can't help but shoes how I respond. So if somebody is violent that's just that's just their nature. They can't help it because there might be some people in your audience or you good for time. I mean, we're just we're just going. I got a few more minutes. Yeah. Because there might be some people in your audience, especially who made wonder about the where do your morals come from. How can you be good without God? You know, how can you be good without God? It's how do we justify ultimate morality that? There is a moral foundation because you can be good without God. But what is the ultimate justification the idea that we would first of all in you know, when I came out of the faith. I remember looking around thinking if I'm only good because I I'm supposed to be or because I'm seeking another jewel in my crown I fear divine punishment because I was commanded to be good. How much value does that really have? But if I see me as part of the human species, and we evolved where cooperation benefited us where those who cooperated together, we're the ones who survived and thrived, and you begin to see us our brains coating for cooperation in our lives, we see communities we see tribes, we see cities. We see cultures emerging out of that. And then the pleasure that come. With benefiting each other helping each other growing together everybody wins. This also explains altruistic behavior where it doesn't necessarily automatically come back to me we can easily explained ethical models the models for acting and beneficial ways to ward our fellow human beings. And we don't have to have a divine judge to be up there saying be kind to one another love one another do this do that. I certainly don't have to have an expectation of of streets of gold. Pearly gates jewels in my crown but doing it simply because it's the right thing to do and in my own life as a non believer in in supernatural claims being good for its own sake has been much more rewarding for me. I I get to live on this planet for a short amount of time. I don't have a belief that I'll live on. But in some ways that has made my life more, urgent every minute is more urgent knowing that there's not an eternity where everything that might happen will happen. I need to say the words today, I need to take the chance. Today. I need to be the person I should be today because there may be no tomorrow. And if it doesn't matter to the universe. It's okay. It's still matters to me. It's still matters to those in my life. Why would I need a deity to have goodness? Will you don't? And this is the this is that that framing issue that we come across. Why do I need a God? And I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I can be good without. And I don't need to have this fear of hell or the reward of having to be good. That's never why scripture like tells us foundationally to be good. It just says you're created in the image of God. You're you're a human being. All right. So if you say that it's good on air, it, then you're saying that the the construction of goodness you say we were tribal, and we help each other out, and this is can be done without. But we also come together as a tribe and destroy that tribe over there. That's true. Right. We we kill these people. So we can you know, you look at some of the most successful civilizations have done it by destroying lots and lots of people. So oftentimes when people come together, it's not good. What will they came together? And they decided that it was okay. And so I guess that was a moral thing to do. There's a real moral dilemma when it comes. To atheism. No. I think the challenge that you're speaking to relate back to tribes. And if you look at the especially the Old Testament, you have hoards of you have rivers of blood with one of God's army slaughtering, the others and not just the soldiers slaughtering, their wives their children their infant's their unborn children in the name of goodness in the name of Justice in God's name. And I don't think that that is a reflection on God. Because I don't buy that that got this. I'm not convinced. I think we're looking at a text written in a superstitious time in the relatively early evolution of civilization where human beings were still coming out of their primitive selves. I mean, we're much better today that understanding why we do what we do how the human brain works, y we are often tribal and territorial the things that protected us on the African savannah much of the savagery even that help protect this out. There has no place in twenty. Century living, and we have come to that understanding, and we become much better for it. We have evolved out of our primitive ancestry, and I think religions reflect a time in human history when we killed each other for all manner of reasons and we've evolved past those. That's why we don't have the coliseums. That's why we're not seeing. God's armies trotting across the United States slaughtering one church lottery. Another doesn't happen anymore. I would say a lot of the benefits of what we experience are due to Christianity universities. You talk about the Ivy league schools that started as seminaries the printing press education, the rights of women, the rights of people of different cultures those or did human beings make those in the name of God these come from the ideals presented in scripture. Right. Like we made biblical arguments against labor one of the things when I was an atheist. I used to say God, you know, he ordered the slaughtering of the Canaanites, and he was four slavery. And then. I actually took ten minutes to look into that. And I go, oh, no that's hyperbolic language because we see what happens to the Canaanites right afterwards. They are not slaughter. You know, when when we sang the song as children the Joshua fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down. It didn't tell us kids. What happened after the walls came down? Right. When the soldiers went in and executed pregnant mothers in the name of God. Yeah. That's in the bible is for anybody. Who cares to look? Yeah. There's a great book is got a moral monster. If you look at me, and you say, well, God was using the culture, and sort of the societal temperature of those times to best teach a lesson in his name in that particular style because that time period would only hear that kind of message. You understand how it sounds? I was using that as a reference to literary forms. No, we were talking about the upper hammer Isaac and that he's using that language, but you notice he didn't actually kill Isaac. And there are some tea, but what about the pregnant mothers? Yeah. There's there's some really atrocious things that Christians have Terresa when you say that the bible is not a slavery book. But the bible not only says that you can own slaves and exodus chapter twenty one. But it gives you instructions as to how hard you can beat your slave. Seth this is no no, no the bible says you can beat your slave to the point where as long as he gets up off the ground within forty eight hours. You haven't broken the law. This is something that immoral creature must must approach honestly, how do you approach something like that? Well, there are not laws about. You should have slaves, and you should beat them. Which is what eight theorists would often say. No, he gives instructions to masters though, and how they can treat other human beings as property, including physical force that do you think that immoral deity ever allow you to own and beat another human being as property. We have laws in our society that if somebody commits a crime right there punished, I'm not talking about crime. No, I'm talking not talking about Tom. Oh, I'm talking about the book of exodus exodus twenty one I read it like three days ago. Okay. And all it is is this lane out. Here are these certain laws if this person beats their slave, and it doesn't say it's a good thing. It says if this crime happens, here's the punishment to the owner who did it if the guy dies instantly. Did it was I agree murder? If he doesn't then it wasn't I agree murder. And so he shouldn't be punished for first degree murder. So it was all about protecting the slaves from. Evil slave owners. And if you read if you read the such dance know, it's it's historically accurate way. We use slavery is not the way us, they slavery denture service to the point where they're unconscious on the ground shower. That's why the bible says let the Bible's punish Amish the master. I think the problem is is that the bible didn't say punish him. If he doesn't it said if he gets up within two days, you're okay. I mean, the bible has directions God's law ordering rape victims to marry their rapist as long as the father gets. I think fifty shekels there were all of these sort of very Barrick stories embedded in the bible that don't get a lot of face time at Sunday, go to meeting for obvious reasons. But if we look at them, and we look at the bible as a whole what we see is is a reflection of a superstitious, ignorant and primitive time in human history. And a book that came out of those times that reflects the violence the barbarism and the ignorance about our world the ignorance about. The universe. And it's been around a long time. Yes, there's a lot of different copies of it. But a well propagated myth is still a myth, even if it was true, I as a moral creature someone who has an evolved sense of morality. I couldn't hold to a deity that allowed someone to own another human being I couldn't hold to a deity that allowed or commanded a woman to marry her rapist, I couldn't hold to a deity that would accept a human sacrifice or ask a father to kill his son. All of those things for me. Even if that stuff is true. And I don't hold that it's remotely. So is a moral creature. Must reject it. And it's interesting to me to watch such good people defend or excuse or try to contextualized what is genuinely immoral behavior on the behalf of y'all way. What is just as fascinated as see things framed in a way that benefits aside and put something with? Without any kind of historical context or really just wrestling. I just Raymond at Archer is honest with our at our church, we preach through books of the bible at a time. We say this. So we can't skip the hard stuff because we're more than willing to go. Wait a minute. Why did this happen? And like if I wanted to go into every single bit by bit point by point, right? We're going to be here for a while. Right. Right. Like, so it's it's the I'm not a fan of the shotgun approach right of like that we go. Here's here's eighty different evils in the bible. I if you want I'm just trying to sort of pin down moral creatures who are embracing such a heinous thing. Right. I think enough has been said on the slavery issue. I don't know if your listeners are familiar with the Christian understanding of it. But we've kind of known what indentured servitude was for a while. It's so people who had no money instead of dying of starvation could freely enter into a contract and by seven years, if they hadn't paid it off they had to be let go, and then there were all these kind of different things like while they are with you. They have to be treated as an equal. Well, so the equality of slavery goes back to the Old Testament radical for its time, nobody else did it slaves were property. Unless Judaism happened to be the place that you entered into indentured servitude. It gave more favorite and made you as equal. It was the way to get an education. It was way to get out of poverty. It was all these things you don't see this as a way to rationalize the owning of another human being as property. Well, we because we're not talking waves of credit card. We're not talking about pay. They can be thrown. Cover meeting indentured servants. We're not talking about devaluing female indentured servants to be half of what the male indentured servants are worth. We're not talking about the auctioning off selling and buying of human beings as indentured servants. I mean, we're talking about human beings who were considered property by another slavery and physical force against those slaves. And and it's I think it's something you, and I might agree on that people. I think you have questions or would like to genuinely explore this should do. So without fear of judgement from on high correct that worthy. God would never say. You're insane. Because you doubt or you're weak. And I always encourage people to go back from score one and read the pipe started. Genesis one one in poor through that sucker. And then do it again, and I'll make this guarantee to you. And I'm absolutely sincere. Whether you believe you're not pastor more that if God showed up tomorrow, I wanna know that like if. God shows up if God is real if God exists in whoever she is. I would want to know that. Right. And I would like to think I would be prepared to change my position based on that knowledge, and I'll make that guarantee to you. If if there is a really good reason now allegiance to following that deity that speaks to are you are you good, right? Do you deserve legions in worship? But to believe in a deity. Just gimme under member. There was you mentioned can ham. There was a debate with Bill Nye and Ken ham. The creation hard to watch. It was possible to what now and at the very end they asked both people they said, what would it take to get you to change your mind can ham is just not that. He just couldn't answer the question because he'll never he never will allow that his mind might be changed. And they ask Bill Nye, what would you ever change your mind, and he said one piece of evidence, and I'll make that guarantee a good piece of evidence. Will help me to change my mind, but we're going to have to do better than a book whose authorship can't be determined. That makes some pretty wild claims. I I asked myself that question, and I still is there talking to fringe us. The other day, I said. Is there anything that could happen that would change your mind, right? Like is there something that could be shown? And I thought long and hard about it. And I'm like. I feel like the evidence is so substantial that we almost have this embarrassment. And that's why I think it's really interesting when we frame it. Well, we don't know the authors. So what that's basically. Yeah, we. That's a an unusual or check western t that this person wrote. I don't have one hundred percent absolute circuit any of the sixty six. You just said we don't have certainty that were even here. But granted my presuppositions. I know that I'm here. I know that logic is not just some invention of the mine. I know that like naturalism is true. I took up a cat amount due in a candidate peppered. I opened both up. They're just gonna phys because that's what chemicals do and they interact with their environment. If there's no God. I'm just fizzing. Christianity. I have no choice. You are automatically declaring though that a gong must have put that wheel in motion. Now, just because we don't know the origins of the universe doesn't mean that if there's a blank and that blank makes us on comfortable that we rush to fill it. And I know the God of the gaps, you know, who came up with the God of the gaps who created that phrase. It was a Christian criticizing other Christians because it says the deeper we go the more we see him. Well, understand I love. Francis Bacon was like a little philosophy leaves, atheism. A lot of philosophy returns. Amanda religion. I think though that questions shouldn't be swept off the table or marginalized or kind of pooh-poohed when you say this is a true book. Right. And someone says I need to know where it came from. Right. I think that's a valid question. I mean, don't so. And I don't I don't think I think maybe some lay people might sweep that under the rug. But I think a lot of people swim people were more than willing to wrestle would they have to wrestle with think about it. I mean, he turned he is in the balance. Do you believe in hell, yeah. What fiery hell? Annihilation? What what's your hell? Look like, I don't know. I'm kind of in between. Okay. I'm thinking about. All right. So let's say hell, however, it is let's say it's a place where they just play nothing. But I say let me clarify. I'm not sure if it's internal or not I lean that way, but fire burning at figurative figurative language or so since God is what hell is eternity is in the balance. Right. Why do you think God would not make his message digestible and understandable to the lowest common denominator, the one who has the let the least capacity for understanding the idea that you would have to have scholarship or that you would have to go through and jump through a bunch of hoops. I mean, you know, my child is in a burning building do I Russian and scoop up the child or do I throw the child a lifeline directly or do? I write a letter with instructions on how to get out. And then give it to a bunch of different people whose names can't ever be. Defied right. I mean, I don't think these are. Gotcha questions or legitimate questions. They're not route or arrogant questions there. How do we know what we know? How do you know where it came from? And I think he has made himself so known. There's a reason that a lot of people have this strong faith, but they don't need scholarship. I think the scholarship or for people who might be skeptical possibly. I don't wanna say, hyper skeptical, but skeptical to a fault, or even if there's a rational reason to believe it, and that this worldview makes sense as consistent you go. Yeah. But it's not what I need is not what I want. I want God to do this. And I'm like I feel like he's made himself. Unbelievably known more books. Poems songs pains have been done about the person Jesus and anybody else, right? The bible is still the number one selling book and the most shoplifted. That's that's an argument from Larry. Oh same in from validity. So he's he's this little carpenter has a Veda the entire world with a singular message though, where I might disagree with other apologised on infant baptism or things. Like that. The core is unbelievably strong like we agree on like these essentials. That's what makes somebody Christians and the number of them is incredible. So as Roman says, I you know, I know, you know, this, you know, you see the world around you look out. God's invisible nature has made himself known hang go. Yeah. Laws of nature. We all see that. Look at the trees kind of thing or the treat. You know? Yeah. If absolutely that's, and that's and I know for you because that, hyper skepticism, but great intellectual minds who have created the science that we now use to try to say see, we don't need God anymore was because there was no need for atheists to even begin to look into science because there was no. Reason that tomorrow is even products maybe think about the idea of discovery of existence life, the earth, the cosmos didn't disappear when people rejected faith, I mean. Humans desire for this coded among Christians and theologians and there are using philosophy. Scientists and Christian philosophers Christian authors, there are Christians and all shapes and stripes in society, but the idea that all becomes sort of a mute a moot. Exercise. It's all void. It's all pointless in that scientists who I mean, there's a pretty large amount of secularist non religious people in science and the idea that they aren't passionately interested in discovery and learning and and finding out what is true testing re-testing. I mean, those those people are very interested in trying to learn more to Martin no more tomorrow than we know today, of course. And so I. To be fair to them. But no. The beginning of science. It could have happened in any time in culture. What Ryan happened people all of a sudden began to really delve in and do science the way we're doing it now because it's still fairly young, right? It's not a an old practice comes about through many, Christian thinkers who were looking into it because they believe there was uniformity to nature, and they wanted to get to know God better and even Einstein who is not a Christian. And I know some people would say he was an atheist hated the idea being called an atheist. He believed there was some kind of something or other. He didn't think hersal do not believe that personal gun. He doesn't think it's personal. But he believes he's like if you understand these laws if you understand all this. There's got to be something. And he I viewed the idea of even being put in the same group as an atheist as ridiculous because he's like, look look. All of this that governs there has to be a hand behind it. He just doesn't reach out and grab my hand. I don't know. I would make the argument that he's done that through Jesus that that he has made himself. So well known we just tend to be kinda stubborn. And so you say what would it take for you? God would already know the answer to that question. God already. Let's say he has me down to the last DNA molecule he already knows what it would take to convince me and I'm waiting. Yeah. Just any second. Okay. And I'm here. I didn't know what it would take to convince me, you know, what? So I. As an atheist, I became very involved in selling drugs because it seemed like a good way to make money, and I didn't care about making the connection between LeBron behavior in eight Theus. I. I used to used to walk the shadows the city at night when I was in eighth easiest and we human flesh. Eski without God. All things are permissible. I believe you remove an absolute moral code. I'm free to make up my own. And I wasn't. I didn't I wasn't necessarily an evil person. I was nice all my friends. But I was kind of a jerk idea though, that morals the idea that a a godless society is what you just said to me makes no sense. It would devolve immediately in upon itself and. I don't mean this as an ad hominem or personal attack. But it sounds extremely arrogant for you to say, the only reason that you haven't chewed yourself up to you know, into into mincemeat is because my God had set sort of the divine standard for goodness in place. Right. I mean, that's that's not what I'm saying. Like if you remove God, we're all going to go only permissible, but you enter into kind of sometimes what we see right now this post modern world view because I feel it to be true. Therefore, it's true. Right. That's not applied to morality people are great at creating their own morality. It's do we are great at creating our own standard. That usually makes us look like a good person. We see it within human conditions religious or not. But this is a human tendency, it's not religious or non religious. It's not speaking to a God or lack of God. And so the idea that you know, because we are not religious. We don't have. Some kind of a bar. We don't have a guideline there. All things are permissible without God. Does CS key is a pretty heavy thinker to wrestle with what you think human being to prove the point. But I'm saying that all around you, especially with the rise of atheism here in the United States. We're seeing the rise of the nonreligious thirty and under his leaving the churches in droves. They don't really they don't that are interested. They don't really need. It. Are you saying that there is a rise of of the sort of Abirin type of behavior because all things are permissible? Do you feel like we're not seeing people acting an ethical moral ways who want better things who want to help other people because I see a lot of it out there in the world, and many of these people a great many people of these have nothing to do with Christianity. So for you to say without essentially what you're saying is without my God. All things are permissible. You you have no ultimate justification is. What does she FDA saying that there is no ultimate justification? And now our society would if there was no got it would be perfectly permissible. So what benefits you benefits may benefit society benefits, the human condition that tribe? The idea that it that it would just be thunderdome dome out there to me there's like a kind of a vacuous approaches benefit. But there's also so I was thinking I was listening to somebody talk the other day. And I think it was your friend met, and maybe we can wrap up with this. Because I know I know you've been very generous Mr. on love it. So Matt how do you say his last name Dila Haney Dylan hunt Sheila hunting? Yeah. Although was like to call him Dila Haney Dila hang with the rest of his life from now on he was talking about same hairs, and they were making a joke. I think it was an interview he did with Jordan Peterson. And he was talking about pushing Sam Harris off the stage, and how that would be morally wrong because he doesn't want to get pushed off the stage. And I said, yes because self-preservation is strong. You don't wanna get hurt? They're for you. Don't hurt people has his. But it would if there was a beam that was about to fall down from the ceiling, and you didn't have time to warn him. And if you did warm him he would just look up and see his death coming because the moral system that he has or that naturalism would say self preservation is one of the highest value. You would just go. Oh, this stinks. Scripture, says no greater love has a man in this to lay down his life for another. So actually, this moral idea goes beyond self preservation and says lay down your life or somebody else a Christian. We would hope would push him out of the way you're saying. Oh that would not see a sacrificial act as the moral act because it didn't benefit him directly. I'm saying he standing on my Dacian when he does. So. But if you're gonna stick one we're back to the claim, and you're going to have to back it up, right? Yeah. And at the end of the day after almost two hours of talking I want everyone to know that notice that we haven't thrown bottles at each other. At least not glass my half my brass knuckles. One last question here before we wrap it up your graphic novel guy. Yes. So we're going to talk about adults call them, but still comics you're I wanted to end on something kind of light. But the more I thought about it the more. I thought it's not really a light question because people get rabid. So I'm going to just say two words, and you just take it where you wanna go marvel or DC. What's dc? Really, see the film's. No. Are you a purist DC who really yes, I'm a purist? One hundred percent sold out to marvel. I think DC they don't know what to do what their characters you have superman in the comic books who can blow out a star. He so powerful. There's nobody that can go against them. So it's so boring, and almost every DC superhero movie at the end, there's going to be some ratio up in the sky and all these. You don't know where these goons came from there kind of alien things. And there's a million of them all of a sudden, and they have to fight these things because they're villains. Don't really need a backstory or a name. It's just wipe it out. They don't do. Good with characters. You mentioned DC my dog started barking in the background so trigger word sorry, pal. Now aquaman, I enjoyed reeling. But that's as far as I can go. All right. We'll we'll we'll stay sake. The sacred canon of marveled, right? We'll stay there, my friend. I really am glad to know you, I'm so thankful for the opportunity to have a conversation. And, you know, even though you, and I we have spirited discussion about the things that matter to us at the end of the day. I hope we see each other as people human beings. Right. And. Whether we ever agree or not, I still would like to be your friend. Absolutely. We can get along and hopefully this role models for other people. What I what I get frustrated with. I know this frustrate to if there a Christian atheist debate on YouTube in the Christian uploads, it all the comments. Are you really showed him that atheists? Don't know what they're doing if the atheists uploads it those Christians are really stupid atheists slaughters Christian Science debate. You upload this on my podcast type. I plug my podcast. Please to go ahead. Doc backwards is my podcast where we look at life at the from a different angle. Can I title this Caleb slaughters? Okay. Look slaughters Theus. Yes. Pastor slaughters atheist in debate about morality movies. I've seen have done it. And it's a shame. It's a shame it in some ways to humanize as I get the attraction, I get the press duration sometimes of arguing what we care passionately about. But I am more and more people will see this in the focus of my work. Lately is the internet is amazing. It is so connected us, but it is also in so many ways sort of disconnected. The humanized were fighting the avatars were looking for the retweets. We're not really seeing each other as pledged in blood people, and so everybody, I mean, pasture calebs good people, and I'm glad to know step out of that echo chamber for just a second. And we scared all one of these days. I'll go to we'll catch a marvel movie together something like that. Okay. Your website is what Caleb more dot TV CLA Caleb. More dot TV. Correct. My friend is still only dot TV not because there's you know that just sounds like such a preacher. Evangelistic more dot TV. Everything else costs a lot of money. This one was like eight bucks. So that's where we are. All right Caleb. More pasture more. It's been a pleasure to talk to you, my friend. Thank you, buddy. Sheet about. Oh, the thinking atheist on Facebook in Twitter for complete archive of podcasts and videos products, like mugs and t shirts featuring thinking atheist logo blinks to atheist pages and resources and details on upcoming free thought events and conventions. Log onto our web website the thinking atheist dot com. Five our team with caffeine from green tea leaves? It's delicious energizing incomes in three amazing flavors with zero sugar and four calories. It fits your life with its compact size import ability. It goes where you go to the campsite, the hiking trail the beach without weighing you down by our team caffeine from green tea. Leaps released your natural side from the makers of five hour energy. For more information. Visit five hour energy dot com.

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Women in Ministry

Christian Podcast Community

59:59 min | 1 year ago

Women in Ministry

"Women in ministry this can be a pretty hot topic in today's world but why is such an important conversation to have our they're really biblical roles for women in the church in the family. If so how can are pastors and leaders worked to facilitate these roles goals are special guest Michelle Leslie will provide answers to these questions and more on today's episode of the Everyday Ministry podcast where everyday ministers come together to discuss every day ministry thousand cap to stone have worn to fully into this week's episode. I just wanted to take the opportunity to present a challenge the listeners this is a challenge some of us co-host or going to be taken on ourselves and it's a challenge on generally the reason why we're doing this challenge challenge is because as we approach the episode that will release on the fifth of August which will be the spiritual discipline of journal coming from Donald Whitney's book scrotal discipline or Christian life it as we approached this this challenge to practice this discipline. We're going to be looking at it in three different ways. The first part of it is to ride out one full page journaling per day in then the second thing is writing out they passage of scripture with a reflection on that scripture and then thirdly just to ride out a prayer it could be related to the scripture just however God is just dealing with you as an individual on that specific the day now obviously we will not be checking anyone's homework or anything of that nature but it's just a challenge just for us to get into a better practice of journaling as we look at this discipline coming up on the fifth of August so if you would like to to join this challenge along with us the new more than welcome to interact with us on the facebook page or you could email us at every day ministry podcasts at g mail DOT COM. We hope that you will join this challenge with us as we seek to grow closer to Ordinance Savior through this specific disciplines thank you and we hope you enjoyed this episode of this is changed fly the Bashar Lighthouse Community Church and I'm sitting here with the Christian norsworthy the associate pastor at Reformation Church in the ban Rooch area Louisiana and we have a special guest for you all that we're GonNa let Chris introduce her and just a little bit before then Chris. How's everything you'll win in Louisiana? It's really hot and he did. He didn't x one hundred five seven o'clock at night and Super Humid but other than that it's going well until like the huge flood comes through at the end of this week he can pray it doesn't but other kind of warning us about that now and truly Royce our other co host just left our house this morning him and his family have been here for the last five days so just been hanging out and having fun. I'm going to church. I'm discussions. We didn't record anything while he was here like I thought we might but you know it's kind of hard to do with six kids in the house. Everything's going good. How about you though man Dude well I am curious as is your neighbor's house recovered since from the last flood? Oh that flash flood a couple of weeks ago. No not really I mean they're living in. It's still it was all they only only they only got like three to four inches in it this time as as opposed to two thousand sixteen. I think that it was floors and then having a place to sheet rock yeah. I guess I'd think about it in terms of Alabama. If my house flooded three inches it would be totally different in a lot of ways. My house wouldn't be built for the anyway. It's on Slough Foundation and yeah wouldn't hold up to that but no everything's going well here. I've just been busy working on some papers last week. I wrote a paper on premarital counseling and why it's important I and Kinda the point behind it that was twenty pages and then this week I get to walk right in view that I'm the Anglican Priest this defending my view of church government as well as government in sixteen hundreds that allowed soon at the end of this week. It's for church history from reformation to modern day. I am not as prepared as I should be in this episode releases. It will actually be do that night so if I don't get this is added before then maybe you'll be listening to this on Tuesday so but anyway <hes> everything's going good here ministry wise interesting thing this week at Church we changed your service times or whatnot preaching service at ten in Sunday School at eleven. We didn't have something school before so kind of put some context there but we're not having Sunday nights now just doing everything on Sunday mornings and I enjoyed it last week so good. I saw the announcement about that <hes> yeah I think the reasoning is simply that it'd be easier for people to stay for Sunday school fruit into before. I'm not sure exactly why that's the thought but I'm okay with it. We're GONNA do both of them at some point anyway so so but anyway wish you WanNa introduce guests this evening yeah our guest is Michelle Leslie of Michelle Leslie Dot Com as she writes of blogs that is geared towards discipleship for Christian women and she's written on the topic that we're talking about today which is women in Ministry and as well as many other things you've if you're like me probably see her. tweets or facebook post re shared pretty often other places but we're actually from around the same area and I've been with the church with her daughter for awhile on so that's how we initially got connected so yeah welcome Michelle thank you it's great to be here and I also have six kids and fortunately three of them are up and out of the the house by now and that the three that are here you know. Keep me pretty busy so that it's it's great to be able to carve out some time and chat with y'all tonight. So what do you say fortunately three of them on the house anymore because it's fortunately for y'all it would be a lot noisier noisier around here if they were all still in the house we we're we're big southern family and we're loud and we like to talk in laugh and and I have five boys and one girl so boys can be pretty boisterous than and all that what kind of thing so we have a lot of fun but it's very noisy and the advice for a new father with a five dollar Gosh I don't know that I would have any advice for father with a five month old daughter just <hes> b b the gobbly man that got his call g to be instead a good example for her and and do all the things that I know you're doing already protect her and raise her up in the in the ammunition of Lord and <hes> just just spee safe to the Lord. I guess it'd be the most important piece of advice. I can give also like I said earlier. Sometimes you get things on here that you're not prepare for so if you would begin to tell us kind of a little bit about your story we you know how you've come to crush on salvation and then also describe your miniature little bit much you do in the local churches one as you're riding certain things well I was I was born into a southern Baptist church southern add this family and and I have been as a matter of fact I was born on a Sunday evening during training union time when we used to call it training union now it's called discipleship training I think and just been in church all my life. I'm I'm so thankful that my parents raised me in church and not only as me church but raised me to be faithful to the church and N._B.. There every every Sunday you know every Wednesday and be involved and be plugged in and I'm I'm just so grateful to them for for raising me that way. I was pretty much a little girl. I guess you could say and didn't really give my parents too much trouble. I don't think I hope they would agree with that. Good student you know not too badly behaved or anything like that and when I was about I pray to receive Christ and so I started growing from there a little bit and because I grew up in the sort of traditional southern Baptist church you know I would hear thing your pastor say things from from time to time like if you don't know the exact day the exact time that you were saved in you're probably not saved or if there wasn't a huge radical change in your life when you got save then you're probably not saved so all along so you know all along my teenage years. I never really rebel. I never really you know my idea of rebelling was wanting to stay later at Youth Bible study and so but I didn't really Ha- I couldn't remember what the date was. When I was saved or anything like that and my life didn't really radically change because I was a pretty well behaved child as it was and I just continued that way and so that that kind of caused me a lot of angst drew my teenage years and even into into my my early mid twenties until I started studying a little more and learning better theology and things of that nature and I had a really a really blessed moment several years ago I I was clean and I wrote about this online blog when I was cleaning out some some old papers and things like that and I came across the Spol- older of my things that I had written creative writing and things like that from when I was a a child T._a.? Nature you know even late teens and I looked I started looking through these things I started noticing. They were all about God they were all about my love for God. They're all about my desire to know him better you know poems and songs and stories and things like that and it started to dawn on me that had I not been saved that love for God that desire for God would not have been there and so lord use that in a in a great way in my life life to give me some more assurance that I may have had a childlike faith but that faith was there and so it brought me a great deal of peace and so that's I've just been growing ever since you know just studying the word and being under good preaching and things of that nature and so that's kind of my testimony. I guess that's awesome. That's pretty similar to the with my wife and I grew up just were in church or whole lives and kind of had that multiple times on our lives thinking laid or we really say we don't remember it. You know we never like we. We didn't do drugs. It's it's interesting a few years ago. I heard a lady giving her testimony and she was talking about how she hadn't been saved until I think her late thirties uh-huh and she would talk about how she would sit on the floor and cry sometimes and say God. Why did you wait so long to save me because she in through all of those difficult things and it really hit me while this lady would give anything for testimony testimony like mine because I didn't have to go through all of that you know so God knows what he's doing? He's got perfect timing. He saves people when it's their appointed appointed time to be saved and he knows what he's doing. So that's what I told of everybody. My testimony is that God save me from all that before I was in it and <hes> doesn't make any better than anybody else. It's just it was up to him and <hes> that's it's a blessing that that I didn't and it's a blessing when he does say people in their thirties or their forties fifties or on their deathbed. You know what it however. He chooses to go about doing that. I it's a blessing and then as far as your local church I know you said that your husband is a minister and you definitely support him that and then Gore into the discipleship of your fellow church members. Would that be accurate to say right well. My husband has been a minister music. All of our married live and even a little bit before were that he's but for the past about four years we've sort of been between gigs so we've just been you know he hasn't been on staff anywhere on but he does teach our Sunday school class and he he does teach some other things and serves in other ways so and yeah in the local church you know in my local church I try to <hes> to stay busy and do everything that I can to encourage women and one of the one of the things that I've done in the past just for example is that we've had we've planned some <hes> ladies night out for my Sunday school class for the ladies and my Sunday school class because we were at the time that we began doing that. We were talking about putting together a women's Bible study class and and one of the lady said you know we get good Bible teaching a lot in Sunday school and insurance and everything but we don't just get to sit around and talk and fellowship with each other and so that's when I started really learning more that that fellowship is really integral role to the lives of women into the discipleship of women to of course we don't want to all you know. We don't want to get too far into fellowship where we're neglecting God's word but we don't want to neglect fellowship either so there has to be a good balance so that's that's one of the things that I've been able to do not as often as I would like to but it's been a role blessing to just sit around and talk about you know when Godly Women Get together Godly women talk about Godly things and so we enable to to talk about some things like that and encourage each other and then you know I served in the nursery and I've served in Vacation Bible School in just all over the place. It's really important to be plugged in and serving in your local church so I try to try to set a good example couple of Chattan empty net myself awesome doing this episode on Women in Ministry in you know I think this is a conversation this getting a lot of traction a lot of attention right now but what we want address Knicks is. Why is this an important topic wise it important that we have a single episode on just specifically women in Ministry? It's really important right now to to take a closer look at what a Biblical view of women in Ministry is. Because there's a lot of conflict as you know going on in Evangelical About <hes> about women and ministry and when it looks like to to serve biblically in ministry as a woman and what it looks like to not be serving biblically look late as a woman in ministry so it's it's extremely important that we define our terms and that we as women we are called to ministry but there are some parameters that we need to stay within and so oh it's extremely important that we as women understand how to serve and where we're to serve. We're not to serve we can talk a little bit about complimentary Anisim in egalitarianism if you'd like to the Biblical view of Women and Ministry is called Complimentary Anisim and what that means basically is that we believe that men and women are created equal in God's as we're we're both made in the image of God we're equal in salvation and we are equally important. Equally valuable in God's is but in marriage and in the church women and men have different roles and women are blessed to have a different role than men God has given us an amazing role in the home and in the Church Church and we shouldn't even want the role Ikat his given to men in the church and in the home and so we serve a little bit differently than than men do egalitarianism is an unbelievable view that says that women and men. There's there's no difference between our roles we would we would agree with a complimentary and Galateri would agree that women and men are created equally in creation in God's eyes were both made in the image of God. We're saved equally as far as salvation goes. There's no difference in salvation between men and women but EGALITARIANS would say that basically anything voice can do girls can do in some of them would say girls can do better but anyway there they. I believe that women can be pastors and teach men in church and the women don't have to submit to their husbands in the home and things of that nature so it's very important that we as women and men as well understand what the role of women is to be we in the church and then the home and in the home women are to submit to their husbands and husbands are to lay down their lives by serving their wives and leading in a godly and Biblical Way <hes> being responsible for the spiritual growth and their families and making oddly decisions and things of that nature in the church women are to do everything except preach to mixed groups of men and women. They're not to teach the Bible to mixture groups of men and women or two men by themselves either and they're not to hold authority over men in the gathered body of believers so we can do everything except that just that one little tiny thing and and men are to be standing up and moving forward and leading the church teaching preaching and you know protecting the church and so those are some of the differences between the different roles of men and women and I think a lot of time complementaries or looked at as the sort of the Party poopers of women's Ministry because a lot of times what's presented is what women women are not allowed to do instead of encouraging women to do all the other biblical things that they are to do under under the auspices of Scripture so that's something that's important to understand. This is what the Bible that's so you'd say complementary and ISM is the Bilko view I personally would agree Chris would agree with you on that and all the Co host here what is well but my question is. Why is that the bill of you know you wanNA provide some biblical references to that just a little bit sure? Let me start with the the verse that Egalitarian based their view on and there there I I haven't really heard any other verses besides this one except some other versus they occasionally take out of context is but the main verse that they use is relations three twenty eight and that's the one that says in Christ there's no male or female no slavery free no no doer gentile and all that which if you just read the entirety of relations three three you can see it as not talking about men and women's roles in the church. It's talking about salvation so that so complimentary would take that verse in context and understand that that is not talking about men and women's roles roles another verse on the complimentary inside that is that complement Aaron Ism is sort of based on is i Timothy to eleven through fifteen and I simply to twelve is the verse that says I do not allow a woman to to teach or to hold authority over man and I think it's pretty clear you know it's as we're not to teach we're not to hold authority over men and it's pastorally pistol so this is instructions for the Church Church so that you know we're to understand that this is within the context of the church. This is not to to say that women can't teach Algebra at the college level or anything like that it's teaching revival in church in Preaching and then we we see all all over the rest of the Bible pattern of male headship in in the church and in the family for example. We don't see any women who are major and minor prophets. We don't see any women leading in the temple. We don't see any women disciples. We don't see any women pastors in the New Testament that it's just all throughout scripture this general broad pat earn of male headship in the home and in the Church so conclude that in terms of the family is equations five and six as one key that speaks directly to that in the New Testament and then I think grow in S._B._C. so I don't know how all how all these churches are but the variety of churches that might be S._B._C.. Although it's probably changing now but I grew up in the centrally where it was Koppelman -tarian in the home but then in the church egalitarian so but then you have we'll run into in the thing my wife always brings up was like well. How could my wife is like? How could I be your pastor? Like how does that make like how does that logically make sense sense given the context of what Paul says fusions if or anywhere else that those kind of things just don't seem to make sense kind of practically think through is definitely not consistent in their ideology there so so early made the statement at that a woman in the church is not permitted to our should not teach preach to a mix body of believers with men and women. So what age group do you cut that off so do you would you. We have an issue with a couple of material and you have an issue with a lady teaching seniors in high school or what do you think that would land on that. I've written about this before so this is no swear to this. There's I would say there's not a hard and fast rule about that in scripture and we want to be careful that we don't make laws where scripture doesn't make a law but my recommendation to women who are asking talking about teaching is first of all they should not be serving as a youth pastor because the role in pastor is reserved for men in a row Bawar at just in case. We have any new listeners whenever we say ah the role of the pastor is reserved for men. Don't mean all men we the scripture scripture definitely qualifies what an elder or pastor should be an it is not just a blanket statement treatment of all men anywhere even all Christian and so just to clarify. That's what we mean. biblically qualified pastors ability qualified men who are called to be pastors exactly that's. That's what I should yeah. That's great yeah. The the role of passer is reserved for biblically qualified men and that's really important because not all manner qualified to be astor's but anyway I would. I would definitely tell her that she should not be serving as they youth pastor. I would also discourage women from I. I usually tell women to make the break from teaching voice right around the time they go into middle school around twelve or thirteen and the reason that I recommend Gnat is because we see a little bit of of wisdom there in scripture like I said they're certainly no law about it but for example we see Jesus going into the temple when he's twelve and he's teaching in the you know this is around the time when boys were considered to be coming to be becoming men in the Bible and certainly we have a little bit of the different idea about that age now but I think that's that's a good cutoff point because that's also about the age where they're moving if you're in church like a lot of Southern Baptist churches that I've been in their moving out of the Children's department and into the US Department and that's just a good convenient place to make a break but in addition to that it's not not just about what women should or shouldn't do. It's about what boys need. I told you I have five boys and girls. So I'm really I really consider myself a boy mom. I love my girl but we just boy all the time and so oh boys at that age especially today with the dearth of male leadership that we have with men continuing to act like adolescence well into their twenties and thirties with lack of male role models with <unk> bother lawlessness and things of this nature boys that age mead godly men to step up and show them what it means to be a godly man. That's what I want for my boys. My boys are a little bit older than that right now. They're my youngest. One is my youngest ones are sixteen and seventeen and so that's what I want for them is to see Godly men in addition to their daddy to step up and lead and so sometimes it's not so much about what women should there shouldn't do but about what men are boys need so that would be my recommendation. I would agree. I think that though like I did Youth Michou for two years my wife aided me in that but specifically in teaching the girls and things of the nature and now she was president and doing things but definitely not a youth minister or youth pastor and that's the other thing too I think so many churches try to interchange say their youth miniatures and not youth pastors initially as the same thing. It's just different terminology analogy to get away with it in in a lot of things I've seen that a lot lately in in churches especially larger churches. They're they're changing the staff titles from pastor something like coach or uh-huh or something like that so that they can stick a woman in that position and feel like they're covered there okay because she's not technically pastor while she is just changing the name of it. I've seen it in worship ministry as well not but none of women in there but really unqualified people in that role but anyway. That's the different conversation for different. Maybe your husband would want to join us. That'd be fun yeah so I like you. Were saying earlier earlier. You've written about it on your blog so if anybody wants to look more into into that she has plenty of resources there what are the roles biblically defined roles for women in inside of the church well basically as as long as you're not teaching men or preaching to man. That's that's the issue these days. Some people are saying that you know as long as a woman isn't officially a pastor of church. She can do anything she wants like guest for each on a Sunday morning so so that's an issue so as long as she's not preaching to man teaching men exercising authority over men in in the church then she's good to go. I mean there. There are thousands of things that women can do and be you can work in the sound booth and you can work in the nursery and you can <hes> I don't know beyond the hospitality committee and you can wax the floors and you you know anything. Basically it's it's. I think the reason a lot of times that we focus on what women can't do instead of what women can do is because there's just these two or three things that women can't do and they can do these thousands of things so as a lot to say you can do anything but does that mean but it's really important that women who are able to teach the skill of being able to teach who are theologically knowledgeable who know their bibles who know how to to study their bibles into convey what's in the Bible well to other people goal. We really need women like that to step up and teach other women I mean a lot of women are so concerned with whether or not they can teach men and they asked me about things like that and I say I've got my hands so full teaching women. I don't have time to teach men I mean the ship is going down at feels like a lot of times and we need women who can teach to reach in there and snatch those women who are perishing from the flames and and teach them well and help them to learn how to study the Bible and just be there to disciple them in and help them and we also need that for women to be teaching children as well because there's a lot of there's a lot of interesting things going on in children's ministry these days to and who needs some doctrine lays down women to get in there and challenge our children I mean kids are smarter than a lot of US think they're they're able to learn a lot of good stuff and to get in there and teach those children and expect something out of them and in in help them to learn their bibles into become good godly men and women later in life. I mean Timothy had a godly mother and grandmother that were teaching him the scriptures even from a very young age and you know Charles spurgeon had a mother and all of the great pastors and everybody they had godly mothers and grandmothers and teachers and Sunday school and things like that and it's being the woman behind the man is no small thing that has a great honor that God. Watching us a score so we really need women in those positions I mean I feel like the majority of the churches that I've been in the majority of the work that ever actually got done within those churches was by women and now you know like they might have a pastor. That's a male but you know almost everything else that was done in the church was facilitated by women like you said from the nursery to the children sturge to <hes> <hes> hospital to not grounds keeping but you know I guess falling under hospitality of like who is cleaning up the place and like making sure it was welcoming and who is making the coffee and who was doing this that and the other <hes> <hes> and then there. Were you know minimum away we were everybody was on rotations for the things they were doing so it's a it's a lot her united kind of chatter before we don't have to go super in-depth into this but the role of deacons gins or as a lot of specifically in the in Southern Baptist church is a lot of southern Baptist churches. The role of Deacon is not a biblical role of deacons so if you viewed deacons in the biblical way I actually believe that women can fulfil that role as defined in scripture now as we said a lot of churches don't define deacons the way that the Bible does for whatever reason <hes> and you have a lot of churches at a run by deacons acting as elders elders who have a pastor who's just preach on Sunday mornings and he's you know whatever that means I guess we Kinda saw similar to those things as Deacon being a servant of the Church of the body and not authoritative pestle role right. Actually I was just talking to somebody about this the other day and I agree with you. Deacon Diaz just means servants and it doesn't you know like you said it doesn't mean ruling elder or anything like that. It's someone who's supposed to if you've read about the first deacons in acts they were supposed to be serving tables and helping the widows and things like that and what I've told women as that you know most godly women. They're already doing stuff like that. They're not worried about whether they need to be ordained or officially called a deacon or whatever but they're certainly a place for that in a church with a biblical view of Deacon Ing or whatever you can ministry yes. Yes you can ministry. There certainly a place for that. I mean I've been in churches before where <hes> you know take when you're ministering to women for example maybe a woman who has come out of a battered abusive marriage and and she comes into the church looking for help and a deacon is assigned to her while you know that Deacon might be out helping look for for appropriate housing for her and looking helping her to find on the job and things like that while his wife is sitting with her and letting her cry on her shoulder and doing the actual one on one ministry or you could have you know a formal or informal group of women who are sort of a subset of your Deacon Board Food and as the requests the needs or whatever come in to the Deacon Board if there are needs like the battered woman that come into the Deacon board they can disperse those needs to the women that are more equipped to handle are to minister to a woman than a man might be and so there's certainly a place for if you WANNA call them deaconess in a church biblically doctrine Lee Sound Church that understands the <hes> the the role that biblically understands the role of deacons so that can be worked out may not want to call him deacon. Is's you know just for whatever reason but yeah women should be serving in all of those capacities. Thank you both at up Chris just because I I would line that will be with you in similar <hes> capacity on that but I would say that in a majority of Southern Baptist churches because there is a beacon body that's operating elders essentially meaning that they are show in authority over the church is a whole rather than simply serve in the church in various ways than you can't have an official deaconess in the church because there is authorities shown in that position but I would agree with you Michelle that in my experience you do see most of the helmets the women of these deacons at are really feeling that role in the Church <hes> and I noticed may seem like a small detail but one of the big ones I remember growing up was there was a specific deacon that would be over preparing the baptistery in his wife was the one that eighty with the women after they were baptized and things of that nature and you see other examples of his world in the church but yeah like right like right now at our churches ministering to <hes> a woman and her children who have for reasons that I won't say have been separated from the father such husband <hes> and are women have played a huge role in ministering to her in a way that just wouldn't be appropriate for a man to <hes> I mean in for her safety you know and the safety of the men and you know for just that whole mess that could just whatever could happen but <hes> you know that's the role in of course sometimes husbands or there but it's always with their wives and the women have really stepped up to reach out to her administer to her and her children just a point. I want to make a quick as we were talking about. This is as we're talking about these ideas complimentary Newsham the listeners what you should notice is we're not speaking of men being destroyed leaders that don't allow women do anything and I hate to put it this way just but to be quite as into pugh not saying that the role of the women now if you loosened Amini Egalitarians that's what they would almost paint this pitcher as <hes> that it's that women can't do anything in the church they they can't serve in any capacity or just because as Michelle's Bu it's only two or three different things in the church wish they can't do they. They try to twist us to say that they can do anything in the church but in reality that's not the case not saying women on important 'cause we've all said it and we all agree as most listeners out there would agree as well that women are crucial for the church the crucial in the operation of the Church and I think of every Sunday school teacher are had until I got into youth group was by a woman and that's my personal experience now <hes> and now most people out there would probably have very similar experience in that so yeah so I think that would bring us to our car. The next question in our last thing would like to talk about is that how can the church facilitate or encourage women ministry or the biblical roles of women in Ministry. How can we go about as pastors or just <unk> or husbands or whatever it may be as a local body? How can we encourage this? Biblical Ministry of Women Well the very first thing that you need to do at as a the pastor for example in husband to I guess is to have a biblical understanding of your role as a biblical Man <hes> as a godly man and also to have a good understanding of what God's role for women is so that would be the foundational thing that I would say I is that you you need to have a good understanding from rightly handled scripture of what those roles are and then I would also say passers really needs to teach on this. I I don't know maybe if it's just the pastors that I listened to on online or other pastors in churches that I've been to but I don't hear a whole lot of passers teaching on this and I I understand why because it's it's a very difficult topic to teach on a lot of times per minute because there are a lot of those egalitarian women that you were just talking about their James who will who will just make their lives miserable for saying anything that you know women can't do and so they take unfortunately a lot of fire for for that kind of thing to be fair. Many many men have abused their roles in many instances so it's you know not without some merit to say that <hes> sinful men new have sinned against women <hes> and you definitely have people that would claim to be complementary and then all in that extreme that don't allow women to do anything that right like I knew people that are part of a church that if they're not wearing skirt that's you know two inches above their ankles in the women's and sin I mean <hes> and they don't say anything in the Church or nothing you know <hes> in so there is an extreme to it. I mean obviously that is the case <hes> there is but they're they're generally in the minority <hes> generally not in the S._B._C. World either normally as that's correct. I mean you don't you you don't see that in doctoral sound churches at all because you know those those people have a biblical view of the roles of men and women but you're right there. There are some some extreme cases where you know the people are just unfortunately using the word complimentary when that's not really what they are. They're just abusive or they're just jerks or they're just mail this pigs or whatever so it's important to have that biblical understanding of exactly what the roles men and women are and then I would I would say that passers made to encourage women to <hes> to explore all the opportunities of service available to them. Don't just say a we have we have slots. It's for nursery workers and that's all that you offer to women <hes>. There's you know there's a great need right now for for pastors to have someone to do discernment work for them so they don't get up in the in the pulpit and quote someone by name that they thought was a doctrine really sound teacher that turns out to be a heretic or something like that. There's worship music that needs to be vetted. There are Bible study books and things like this that needs to be vetted and if you've got a doctrine really sound discerning woman in your church put her to work on that you know there's things like that that women can do and there's an I think another thing that we need to teach the church in and passers really need to take the lead on this is that in the church in general there is such a desire from men and women to get glory for ourselves and to Sir you know to be the soloist in the musical that everybody everybody claps for to be the person on on the stage that's teaching or to you know to be in the spotlight and that is not what Jesus taught us. Jesus taught us to be servants. I mean you look at him. Washing the disciples feet that's that's what he has called us to be and we've got to change the desire for the spotlight in our churches to the desire to be that one washing the feet to be the lowliest servant to be the person who delights in picking up the chairs after the fellowship or or scrubbing the floors or whatever because that's the economy that God has taught us in scripture is that we are to be servants not to be clamoring for the spotlight so that's another way that it that pastors can foster a healthier desire among women to serve a more and men to and more Amore Biblical desire to serve that way because a lot of things that need to be done in the church. They're not glamorous. Risk on people are GonNA complain about the way you did it. You know you're not gonNA get credit and but that's what Jesus is called to is to be servants so that's another way and then just to encourage women to decide to try different roles of service and to find out what God has gifted them to do. I'm not really big on this. <hes> spiritual gifts surveys and quizzes and things like that what I tell women to do is go to your pastor find out where there's a place of services available. Pick the one that seems to be the best fit for you and dive in and do it and that way you're serving your church and you're also learning whether that's an area God is gifted you in and if it isn't then and maybe you know when you're finished with that service you go onto a different type of service so <hes> so that's another way that that husbands and pastors can encourage women to to be servants in in their church so that's I think that's that's a good start. That's probably biting off a lot more than most her piskun shoe at the beginning but that's a good start and and you know you can go on from there so we'll briefly since Chris and I I really can't answer this question. We want you to how can women held disciple each other now. Obviously I can speak to how mankin disciple men but in new experience what are some practical ways that you as a will make and help disciple another lady in the church well there. There are two <hes> two ways that we think about discipleship we think about one on one discipleship than we think about group discipleship in those are both ballot and both necessary and so obviously in Group Group discipleship women can be teaching other women and teaching them good Herman Idex how to study the Bible for themselves. <hes> what scripture says you know on various topics leading them X. positionally through different books of the Bible Travel and things of this nature and then there's the one on one discipleship and one of the things that I think is important is that older women who have had the experience of being wives and mothers or being single or being single career woman or or whatever that they disciple one on one younger women. I'm really been surprised to see this but we've have we have a lot of younger younger. Women who don't have mothers who have disciple them and have spent I guess spent time with them sort of nurturing them in helping them to grow and so a lot of two or maybe their mother their. Real mother isn't saved or they just got saved and now they're in the woman just got saved and now she's just coming into the church and she doesn't know any older Christian women's Alpher and so it's important to to come for older women to come alongside those younger under women titus two three three five says and teach them how to be godly women how studied their bibles how to make godly decisions how to submit to their husbands and be good mothers to their children in order to be if they work godly witness at work and things of this nature and sometimes we have a little trouble putting that sort of thing together making that connection some churches do mentoring programs where they match up an older woman with a younger woman those can be excellent or it can just be an organic relationship that develops because you have someone you know at Church. You know you meet a younger woman you go out for coffee things things like that but that's extremely Langley important for the older women just just like scripture says it always works out best when you do what scripture says to do for the older woman that come alongside those younger women and help them out one thing of told my younger people washing my younger people my twenty something year old's <hes> is like it. I know you're at a point in your age or maybe you start to realize you didn't have that spiritual contortion or discipleship that you wish you would have had you know you think maybe O._M._i.. Youth why didn't so many tell me why didn't so many tell me this or wiser. No one doing this for me now. Those things that you feel that somebody has you know maybe shortcomings people have come in. You're like Oh like no one did this for me. You know what there's probably somebody in your church right now. Who is younger than you who feels that way? If you feel that way then somebody else feels that way and or on the positive side if someone did come alongside you in do these things for you. We'll guess what there's somebody else in your church who needs that and this is how Christianity she hannity is propagated and been you know an how healthy Christians have grown for two thousand years and we all have a line we I mean we can't all literally trace ourselves down to the disciples split. I mean if we could did you know pull out of history and look down the line. There is they line from one person so the next all the way down to the first century and until Christ calms. It's going to look that way and that's what we we need to be doing now and might feel awkward. I you might not have any idea what you're doing <hes> but it's better to be doing it and like you said you might have to figure it out on your way <hes> but a better. We're not doing it exactly and yeah. It's funny that I was just I've just been teaching first and second Timothy on on the blog a first second Timothy Bible study and there's this concept of in first and second timothy of entrusting leading to someone else what has been entrusted to you and trusting the Gospel to someone else Paul trusts the rulership of the church and how to run the Church to Timothy and and that's what we need to be doing we need to be taking what has been entrusted to us and interested to the next person down the line so that that's absolutely correct biblical pre to say that that's wonderful I hate to because the conversation short but we'll come into the end of our time who you're on the podcast before we jump into the weekend WanNa take a quick break to listen to the other podcasts that as part of the Christian podcast community striving for eternity as a christ-centered ministry focused on equipping people for eternity and they provide speakers and seminars I that come to your church with expertise in theology per minute ex world religions creation science evangelism presupposition of apologetic church history and expertise and sexual abuse in the Church for details on their seminars and to request to speaker for your church go do striving for eternity dot org striving to make today and if journal date for the glory of God welcome back in as we jump into the plugs of the week Chris. Do you have anything for us. This book is called fifty crucial questions which is an overview of the central concerns about manhood and womanhood and it is a by John Piper and Wayne grew them. Yeah that book is just a ninety eight page P._D._F.. That you can actually download for free desiring God God can also well the one I wanNA recommend and it's not one that I have read personally unfortunately but it's one that my wife is red and I trust her to most six into it. <hes> it's one called Michiko Motherhood by reaffirming not only just you have of the actual books she wrote. There's actually about our study that you can walk through four that now. I'M GONNA ask Michelle in a minute or her opinion on Bible Studies for women in possibly anyway because I've heard that before so yeah plug of the week is Special National Motherhood by Glory Furman show. You got any force just the Bible you're talking about. Women's Bible Studies earlier a lot of women right to me. That's the number one question I get that maybe the one or two question I get asked is is can you recommend a good women's. Bible study and there are some good ones out there. I'm sure they are few and far between but what I like to recommend that women do is to study straight from God's Word and learn how to handle God's word correctly for themselves salves by studying X. positionally through the Bible and so that would that would not only be my -ployed but also might encouragement to women out there is to get into God's word you know reading good books from time to time is great but don't depend pinch solely on somebody else's Bible study book or Your Bible Study Time get in there and dig through God's words with your own hands and discover how wonderful it can be in how rewarding it can beat to discover his troops his or yourself that note do you have any recommendations of any. Maybe resources teacher could use to help prepare them to walk through. Scoot your ex positionally rather than just opening it up in being unprepared. Yes the first thing I would recommend is go to your pastor and see if there's any sort of training course or videos or anything like that that your pastor would recommend and then <hes> not to sound like I'm plugging myself but this is this is an issue that I have seen so. I've created resource for it. <hes> women who don't know how to study the Bible for themselves or maybe have never taught straight from the Bible to class the Bible studies that I right. I have a a section on Bible Studies. It's on my blog and like I said a few minutes ago were finishing up first and second Timothy Right now on the blog but my Bible studies are designed to teach women how to study the Bible for themselves or how to teach the Bible what they should be looking king four in the text how to handle the text correctly questions they should be asking of the text hell to think biblically about the tax so that they can learn how to study the Bible for themselves so they don't have to depend on other people's materials even mind then they can just pick up their bibles and study and teach the Bible straight from scripture now. Is there anything about that that would make it completely for women or men could go to your side and resources willing. I don't I try to discourage men from participating in the in the Bible study online but I don't think when I say participating in the Bible Study Online. I don't mean that this is a group thing that we all do together. It's just there you know the lesson. Is there on the blog every week but again. That's one of those things that is is not so much. It's wrong for men to use the study but they could benefit a lot from studying under a godly man because they're meant mint and so that's one of the reasons discouraged men from using the studies for their own Personal Bible study time however the Bible studies are formatted with prison the Scripture and then what I do is I just ask a bunch of questions to show you know how to study that passage and so I you know I think that would be fine for a man who's a Sunday school teacher. Maybe even a pastor to maybe look over some of those questions in an think eight to himself. Oh maybe this is a good point that I wanNA bring out this particular way or maybe this'll be a good question to ask my class as I'm teaching them this passage of scripture so for for background materials I don't see why not you know just just a little bit of <hes> sort of cliff notes for a sermon or Sunday school or less. I was thinking more in the context of let's say assorted Sunday school class for men and women that would be on the same thing you're going through. If there was anything in particular that would be more lean towards women that might benefit a man of any sort to give more insight into women you mean that kind of thing yeah it possibly because I'm a woman and I write for women riding his aim agamemnon so that might give a man you know some some ideas some thoughts like he'd never maybe he'd never thought of it that way before you know as it relates to women so that yeah that could be helpful. I think the discussion with questions because obviously the scripture still remains the same thing regardless if you're male or female and all that that did bring me Oh to one more resource I want to recommend in then Jesus juices. Call in exactly wash your face. I know that no one thing I do want to recommend just briefly and now this is going to be a lot more detailed than what Michelle was recommended earlier to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong. It almost sounds like an intro the two Herman Aesthetics that what you've outlined for ladies to prepare to walk through scripture themselves to teach it in you know things of that nature in light of that. There's one it's over scholarly book is called Grasping God's word and recommended this resource many towns on this podcast because for me I was a youth pastor went into Baba College and this was the first class I took after doing youth ministry for a year and realize I didn't know how to read the Bible myself which is terrible terrible thing but thank God in his providence that he he provided this class that provided this book for me and so everything I learned in that class because I did it online I learned by reading that book and I would recommend that anybody out there if you're male or female listening and you just won't understand how to Riyadh word better to teach judo just to understand it yourself essay great book now like I said it's not know hundred page book. It's an academic book so it's GonNa take a little bit of time but it's going to teach you the different genres different things of that nature oil so well before we get all for here Michelle. Do you WANNA take opportunities. Just tell us what we can find your side and all that information. My blog is Michelle Leslie Dot Com. That's M. I.. C. H. E. L. L. E. L. E. S. L. E. Y.. Dot Com and you can find all the resources that we've talked about tonight on on the blog and it's all free and it's all there anytime anybody needs it again for being gone here. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation as much as person I have and this is importing conversation to have in our churches today. We hope that the listeners have enjoyed it and this has been episode of the Everyday Michigan podcasts at podcast where everyday miniatures get together to discuss mashed like to thank you for listening to today's episode of the Everyday Ministry podcast where we seek to provide quality content I through our full length episodes that release every first and third Monday of the month and second through the ministers minute these are short ten to fifteen minute episodes so release every second and fourth Monday of the month in which one of our co host will seek to answer a specific question related to everyday ministry. If you enjoy today's episode we encourage you to subscribe and rate the podcast through the podcast Catcher of your choice we we can be found on itunes google play stitcher tune in spotify and youtube today we pray piece in grace for you through our Lord Jesus Christ Happy Ministry <music> and <music> uh <music>. I <music> uh-huh yeah.

Church Chris Timothy Right Women and Ministry Biblical Ministry of Women Michelle facebook Southern Baptist church Michelle Leslie Bashar Lighthouse Community Ch Church Church southern Baptist church Reformation Church Everyday Ministry Donald Whitney Bible Study Online Slough Foundation Alabama
Nation's largest Protestant denomination elects first African American chairman: How advocacy can change our culture

The Daily Article

07:03 min | 7 months ago

Nation's largest Protestant denomination elects first African American chairman: How advocacy can change our culture

"This is the daily. Article podcast published by the Denison Forum or culture changing Christians to receive the daily article directly to your email inbox week day morning. Visit the daily. Article DOT COM now. Here's Today's news discerned differently. The Southern Baptist Convention SBC was founded in eighteen forty five slavery played a significant role in its formation, a fact for which the determination has expressed great remorse in a resolution adopted on its one hundred fiftieth anniversary. Yes, be stated we lament, and repudiate historical acts of such as slavery, from which we continue to reap a bitter harvest, and added we apologize to all African Americans for condoning and or perpetrating individual and systemic racism. In our lifetime, the denomination further stated we ask forgiveness from our African American brothers and sisters. Sisters and then committed to pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships now, the nations largest Protestant denomination has taken a significant step in this pursuit the S., B. C.'s executive committee the group that runs the business of the denomination outside its annual meetings has elected its first African American Chairman Reverend Roland Slade senior pastor at Meridian, Baptist Church and Elko hone California was elected unanimously in what the outgoing chairman called a wonderful and historic moment he was previously vice chair of the committee and Chair of its Cooperative Program Committee. I became a Christian through the outreach of a southern Baptist Church and graduated from a Southern Baptist Seminary while Denison forum is nondenominational I. Will Forever be grateful for the contributions made by southern Baptists to my faith and life, but I have never been as proud of southern Baptists says I am today, nor have been more committed to their goal of pursuing racial reconciliation in all our relationships to that end this week. We have been answering Benjamin. Benjamin Watson's call to respond to racial injustice with awareness, advocacy and action. Yesterday we discussed awareness examining the history of racism in American culture and asking God to reveal any vestige of this sin in our lives today, let's focus on advocacy defined by Merriam, webster as the act or process of supporting a cause or proposal, we practice advocacy when we use our influence in the service of a value or purpose, the executive committee of the SBC practiced. Practiced advocacy when it elected an African American chairman Dr Tony Evans Practiced Advocacy when he wrote a brilliant article for The Dallas Morning News stating that the Church must address racial economic healthcare and opportunity inequity as well as recognized the systems that work against the fair treatment of people. Pastor Robert Morris of Gateway Church practiced advocacy by talking with ministers of different races to hear the stories from these precious men and women of God of the racism. Racism and prejudice that they have faced and that their families have faced their parents their grandparents. He adds that their tragic stories will break. Your heart is churches. Website states we acknowledged the evils of racism and discrimination fighting so hard to tear us and our nation apart at the seams it adds while these issues can be difficult to talk about. We want to keep talking about them and empower you with resources to help you in your conversations. The Bible calls. Eve the mother of all living. We are all created by the same father and descended from the same parents. How can you and die? Be Effective advocates for the value of every human being of every race, as created in the image of God one identify your platform. God has given you resources, abilities and spiritual gifts that are uniquely yours. Ask The Lord to help you to find your mission. Mission and influence in our culture today for more see my latest faith wire article are there at least thirty six intelligent civilizations in our galaxy, why our uniqueness is relevant to covid nineteen and racism today to pray for God's Word and God's heart, human words cannot transform human hearts, but God's word spoken in the power of God's spirit will advance God's kingdom to our culture and impact others for eternity. Ask the. The Lord to lead you to the biblical truth, he intends for you to share with grace for more see my latest stream article how to talk about LGBTQ issues and racism, speaking the truth in love three use your influence to stand for God's inclusive love God called His Prophet. Jeremiah, five, one two run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem look and take note search her squares to see if you. You can find a man one who does justice and seeks truth that I may pardon her. There is no justice that is not built on truth and no truth that does not lead to justice. Once you know your platform and you have prayed for God's leading look for ways to advance truth and justice in the lives of those you influence and know that however they respond, your obedience will bear eternal significance. The Him God. His love closes with these words, Sin and death and hell shall never onerous final triumph gain God is love so love forever over the universe must rain. What part of the universe will influence with God's love to day? Our latest book is now available in seven deadly sins how our oldest temptations can lead you from Vice Virtue Ryan Denison and Dr Jim Denison investigate the Biblical and historical significance of the seven deadly sins, but how can pride envy wrath, slothfulness, greed, Gluttony and lust actually point you to God visit daily. Article Dot Org today to find out. That's Daily. Article Dot Org. Would you consider sharing this podcast with a friend? Family, member or CO, worker, in order to help build a community of culture changing Christians thank you for listening to the daily Article podcast today.

chairman executive committee Denison Forum Southern Baptist Convention SB Southern Baptist Seminary southern Baptist Church Benjamin Watson Benjamin Ryan Denison Pastor Robert Morris Denison Baptist Church SBC Dr Tony Evans Dr Jim Denison Gateway Church vice chair Cooperative Program Committee California
Ep 122 | Josh Buice

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey

33:06 min | 1 year ago

Ep 122 | Josh Buice

"Hey guys, happy Friday. Welcome to relatable hope everyone had a wonderful week, and that you are looking forward to the weekend. So we are going to talk to pasture, Josh Bice today, the founding director of g three conferences there has been a point of contention going on within the southern Baptist convention. That's the convention that I have been a part of my entire life. The churches that I've gone to in general have been a part of the southern Baptist denomination and eat is a century, the role of women in the church. Now, I have already recorded the episode that I'm going to do this summer on women in the church, that's to be released after maternity leave. And so if you are wondering what all the, the bible says about a women's role in the church and my perspective on that based on the word of God, you could just wait just a few weeks. Maybe even just a couple more weeks to hear that. But today I wanted to get his insight he has been very vocal on this issue from the side of complimentary in his. Versus the other side, which is egalitarianism. And I wanted to see if he could give us some clarity on this extremely hot button issue. Josh, thanks so much for joining me. Glad to be with you. Yes. Okay. If you could tell everyone who may not know who you are what you do. Sure. Money was Josh I serve as a pastor just west of Atlanta, Georgia, have the privilege to serve one hundred seventy seven year old Baptist congregation now. Interestingly enough, my wife and I both grew up. Here's children, we met in the context of our church. I went away to southern seminary pastored out state for about seven years. And then in God's kind providence, I was called backcomb to serve the very people who served us as children off of where it, do you mind me. Asking where in Georgia you are I lived in differ a little bit. So take I twenty straight out west from the city just past six flags and you run right through the heart of Douglas county. And that's where we are. Gotcha. Cool. My husband and I met in Athens, Georgia, and family is from a small town in Georgia. And so I'm very familiar with the area. So as you know, there's a law going on with the SBC right now. I was raised a southern Baptist in a southern Baptist church and I am very thankful for that. But there has been some contention for a while. But I would say it seems like it's kind of blown up on social media for the past couple of weeks and it centered on this issue of complimentary in ISM versus egalitarianism, now, some people listening to this might not even know what I mean by that. So could you kind of break down, what we may call for lack of a better word the controversy that's going on right now. Yes. Sure. So I think it would be helpful probably just to talk about definitions, so materialism, and egalitarianism are, are two different positions opposing positions, basically complimentary Anisim was termed, it was brought about as a response to the feminist movement. Back in the sixties and seventies and complimentary in ISM basically teaches that both men and women are created equal in person hood, both in their value or they're worth and their dignity. And so both men and women have the same percentage from the same amount of the image of God upon him. The distinction would be this complementary ins believed that, that there is a distinction that God has for both men and women in culture in the home in the church. So, in other words, there are roles and responsibilities that are very distinct for women that are different than the roles and responsibilities that God has designed for men to carry out. And so that would be what we would call complimentary Nissim egalitarianism would be the idea that we could agree on what would be that both men and women are created equal with. From or by God with both dignity in value. The worst of both men and women are, are the same. But the stink tion would be simply this, the gala -tarian would say that there is no distinction. There is no difference of role and responsibility for the man in the woman in the culture at large or the home or the church in. So that's where you would get the idea of a woman serving his pastor in various different evangelical circles rate. So where if you know, where do egalitarians Christian egalitarians get their scriptural basis, because you and I agree on the fact that the bible is pretty clear in the context of the family in the context of the church. There are simply different roles for men and women. It's not a degrading role for women in an honorable role for a man they're honorable rules that are just. Different. So what do you think is behind this ECOWAS, Harry and push to say, no, no, no different is inherently worse in so women have to serve in the same way that men, do, where's that coming from, we'll, I figured it'd be helpful to recognize this is not a new movement. This is not something that was birthed in the last couple of years in certainly isn't something that just comes from the feminist movement of the radical feminist movement of, of say the sixties in the seventies, this is a movement that was birthed in the garden of Eden. So the, when you see eve, usurping, the authority of her husband when she was tempted by Satan in the garden what you see is, the very first role reversal so everything that you see coming out of the fall in the garden of Eden, the very curse that we see according to Romans five twelve is really the product of this first role reversal. So this is not something new. This is something that's been happening in ancient problem. We've. Been dealing with as far as the differences between male and female since the very beginning since the very curse that took place in the fall. So what we're seeing now is that we're seeing in this present controversy within the Evangelos circles were seeing really this coming out of this recent metoo movement in the abuse of women. I think I think everyone can agree on the fact that for women to be abused or to be harmed or to be degraded in any way, as far as their value in worth and dignity is sinful, and we should all stand against that. But the idea that simply because women have been abused or because women have been somehow discriminated against in certain cultures that we must now empower women to the highest roles in responsibilities of both in the home, the church in culture or even denominational settings. I think is. Just miss the Mark. I think we can call out sin and deal with sin in the in, in different ways. As far as the, the issues related to the oppression of women, or the injustices surrounding women, without bypassing God's blueprint for what men and women are to carry out in those different spheres. Yeah. And that just I heard these this conversation, a few decades ago, right? That I mean that this were kind of having a similar controversy just about liberal, theology in general. And then we made a correct turn, which has really helped the Baptist church thrive. The southern Baptist church thri for a while. And I think that you, you nailed it when you said, okay, there's been a lot of things that have happened culturally and politically, I would even say for some people, the election of Donald Trump erupted, this desire in some Christian women to say, okay, any form of, you know, saying that a woman has to be in a particular role as misogyny or saying that a woman. Can't exercise authority over a man is I Timothy two twelve says, well, that's some form of sexism. So it's been interesting to see people that I would have thought believe in the supremacy of scripture, because of cultural changes, all of the sudden, it seems like take a completely different approach to what scripture, actually says, what do you think about that figure spot on? I think that one of the problems with that is you talk about the supremacy of scripture back in the day, when we had this controversy related to liberal, theology. We went through this period of time this movement called the conservative resurgence back during that time period you had individuals like the associate dean of the school, Cialis at southern seminary a her name was Molly Marshall, and she was actually teaching things such as post mortem salvation opportunities. I mean, there is all sorts of problems. She was an ordain minister in all of this, but we moved through that controversy and we come to this present. Situation. I think that there have been pastors and others who have rightly stated this before they have stated we might have won the battle on errand. See, but we're losing the battle on sufficiency. And so when it comes to this issue of how we're going to treat women, we want everyone in the culture to say that the southern Baptist convention loves women that we want women to flourish in use their gifts for the glory of God. That's certainly true. But the problem is, we are also, if we're if we're just going to be really honest of the southern Baptist convention, as well as many other evangelical circles have become slaves to pragmatism. So, in other words, if it works, then let's do it in. So if empowering women to certain roles of thority makes the culture at large view us as, as valuing women than they were going to do that, in, so that's problematic. When it comes to using certain methods to gain the the. I of provable or to attract the culture at large, that certainly problem out. I think that there's been a big push within Christianity away from in an attempt to push themselves away from the title of evangelical as a group that is associated with Trump. They have said, well, I'm going to be the opposite of that, which means I'm going to be woke, which means instead of partnering with fellow Christians on which I have political disagreements with I am going to partner with people that I agree with politically, but that I have complete disagreements with the illogically and because of that partnership I think we see a lot of people saying, well, my these political issues are more important to me than these than feel obstacle in Aaron see your theological sufficiency. And so that's where we've kind of seen a lot of compromise. Now just so everyone is perfectly clear who is listening to this. What does the bible say specifically about a woman's role in the church and what, what should that look like I? And foremost. God has a huge plan in a massive blueprint for women to be useful in the life of the church. So this idea that complementary ins that we somehow degrade women, or that we don't see value for women in the local churches, simply to miss the Mark that stood misrepresent where we stand. In other words, I would say it like this, that, if we did not have faithful women doing exactly what God has called them to do in the life of the church are churches would would fall apart. I mean, they would be very unhealthy. So when we read like I Timothy two twelve you cited a moment ago, it just simply states that God's plan is, is not for women to teach or to have a thority over men, and I would say that, that by definition if you're gonna preach the word of God, that you're to handle the word of God with authority. So the herald goes forth with the authority of. The one that he's representing or that she's representing. So if you're going to stand with the open bible, and preach, the bible, you can't say I'm coming under the authority of the elders. But now I'm gonna ask you to open the bible, and I'm gonna now preach the word you have to preach the bible with thority it just comes with the territory. So the idea is that women from the beginning were created to be a helper to be. We see that with Adam that eve was created to be a helper. We'd go through the life of the church, and we don't see that God is calling women to be apostles. We don't see that God is calling women to be elders. A what we see is that God is absolutely calling women to be those who have their influence in the home, those who put their affection on the home to be keepers at home to use a biblical phrase. But then also we go to Titus chapter two and we see that women are to be disciples gang making disciples training, the younger investing in Chile. Brin serving in various capacities. She simply not called to the office of elder in, she's not called to preach the word to a mixed audience are to preach, the Sunday, sermon within the context of the local church, and I would actually say, even in the context of a Christian conference as well said, that's what I would have a question on. And I think a lot of people listening, probably have a question on that, too. You know, I went to before even thought about this issue. Honestly, when I was somewhat of a new Christian college, went to the passion conferences, where you hear from people like John piper. You also hear from Beth more Christine Caine, you know, again, I was kind of even oblivious at that point to any discussion of whether or not this is biblical but there are a lot of bible believing even couple materials who say, look, I Timothy two twelve is in the context of the local church and that does not extend to at Christian conferences. But as you said, you don't preach the word of God without a thority. So I guess I'm just asking for more clarity in insight into that, because there are people that I respect who are complementary, who would say, you know what in the context of conference? It's fine. They're not exercising authority and setting the doctrine for a local church. Well, I think, again, within the world of complimentary in ISM, you do have a couple of different categories in either within those categories you're going to have differing levels in, in different positions. You have what's called soft complementary, and that would be the idea that when allow for women to use their gifts of teaching and preaching that sort of thing in the in the context of a mixed audience like a Sunday school class. A small group bible study of sanctioned by organized officially by the local church or even on a Sunday morning so long as she doesn't have the or occupy you might say the office of elder so long, she hasn't been or dating to the office of elder but then you have what we might call the hard complimentary zone. And that's the idea of that I would actually hold to that would stay that if you're going to allow a woman to preach the bible to mixed audience or. In the pulpit on Sunday morning on occasion so long as she doesn't occupied that office of elder than I would say it seems to be a bit inconsistent. I mean, it seems to be that you're saying to her, you can exercise your gifts occasionally, but you can't do that on a week to week basis and be called pastor in. So I, I think that that's certainly an inconsistency among the more soft complimentary ins, but again back to the biblical text, I would say, you can't preach the bible without preaching it with a thority. So we must say thus says the Lord, God, we must open the word we must preach, the imperatives in call people to respond to God. And so that would involve preaching the bible with authority. And so that's why I don't embrace that more soft position the something like the passion conference. Would you say there's an opening there for saying that the women who are, are teaching our teaching essentially killed? Because they're you know, they're college students. Now they are twenty something. So I guess it depends on kind of where you draw the line for adult men. But would you say there's an opening there for someone like Beth more or a Christian woman? I know you might you know, we have other maybe theological differences with Beth Moore, but just the female part of it, do you think there's an opportunity there for her to kind of shepherd at young people is more of a spiritual mother or no, no? I wouldn't say so I think that we'd have to draw a line some place. And I think that even with passion, you're gonna have you're gonna have young men and young women who were there. Let's just be honest. Those were young men and young women. They're, they're college students in, in our American culture. We liked to have this delay of manhood and womanhood. But I would say those are young men and young women. And, and Furthermore, you have the organizers of the event, you have lots of adults who are in that room thousands of them. And so I think that it would just be very good to say. Say we need to hold the position that states that, you know, we're not gonna have women preaching to thousands of, of young men in a context like a conference setting. But I, I do think that there is room for her to serve in a conference. I think there's room for her to stand in preach to hundreds of women. All you have to do is you just simply have to organize it. And then advertise it as such. Okay. Dot SA SEO. I do think that, like I was saying there's probably disagreement among complementaries. I wonder if there would even be people who consider themselves like you like a hard complementary, and who doesn't believe that a woman should be preteen on Sunday morning. But who take the first Timothy passage is saying, okay, this is in the context of the local church and dozen extend to doesn't extend to conferences. I think that would be a really interesting conversation, haven't I do want to say that. I think it's possible for two bible, believing Christians to have that, that kind of differentiation behind what they believe now the bigger that this. Conversation gets the bigger that the scope of complimentary in ISM gets to where it's essentially saying, no men and women have the exact same roles no matter what I think that is, obviously, we agree there where we Wade into particularly dangerous territory. So tell me how we properly in a Christ like way engage with those who disagree so passionately with us about this subject, because it's not just a political issue. It's, it's a much bigger issue than that. I would say that's a really good question. I think that sometimes in social media. And so you spend time in the social media world in your online and various different areas, as far as YouTube or wherever else, I think it's oftentimes difficult to you might say to show these differences or engage in these differences, or maybe even respond to these differences through say tweets or even a Facebook post or. Something of that nature. So we have to be very cautious. I think in how we do it. Yeah, I would say that, with a public figure because I'm often times even on my blog that I write if I write an article addresses these issues that someone holds such as Beth more for instance, I will receive hundreds of emails from people who are I think maybe even have a well-meaning attitude in heart behind it. But they'll say did you properly contact Beth before, you know, before we read the article in response to say or a position such as like Matthew eighteen as far as that's talking about church discipline. But I would simply say that when it comes to a public figure that, that person's outside of the realm of my look search, so I don't have the privilege or the access to individuals who are preaching public sermons, or riding public books or espousing various different ideas, in views in the public realm. So that, that's a contextual issue. And I think that we must understand. Matthew chapter eighteen when we're talking about church discipline is talking about the context of a local church. So someone preaches a public sermon. It's plastered on YouTube or someone writes a book for everyone to read, and they're saying things in there, that aren't biblical to write an article publicly calling out that very error is not a it's not a violation of the Matthew eighteen passage. I just think we have to be very honest with that. And because those are I mean one thing happened in the public sphere. In the response also happens in the public sphere. It'd be one thing, if you're commenting publicly on something that happened privately, I would think that would be kind of just a breach of trust in that's just based on my own commonsense. But I've gotten some of the same things when I talked about the problems with the Spero conference that happened here in Texas with miss Yuan, who had some interesting things to say about whiteness. I don't think it's necessarily always the responsibility of the person commented on something that they've seen. Publicly to make this a private conversation, wonderful. If that happens is wrong as the public commentaries happening from police of wanting to share the gospel, and we're going back to the supremacy of scripture as our thority. I agree with you. I think that it's totally fair game. You're at that I would say if you chose to do that. And you had access to her nuts, fine. I mean yeah, that's the wonderful thing. Sometimes these these dialogues can take place in private instead of in the public sphere. And sometimes, that's, that's very good and profitable. However, I would say this, if Beth more were a member of March than, before I wrote one of the two articles that I've written recently, I would have had conversations with her before I ever penned those articles. So because some of those differences could have been worked out, perhaps in private rather than public. So those are issues that I think that we must be honest about as well. So I think we're on the same page there. Yeah. Give some kind of encouragement to women who might be listening to this. Because if, if we're honest in our flashes, women eight can't be hard, and I specified in our flesh. It can be hard to read a verse that says, women should be quiet in the church, especially in today's day and age. When women are told even if we don't believe the feminist mantras that you can have it all you can do it all you're just like a man. There is something that's and I think it does go back to the garden of Eden. That's kind of just rubs us the wrong way it rubs our pride the wrong way, which, of course, is a Senate rubs, our ego, the wrong way, which, of course, is a said. So if you could give some encouragement to women about again, I know, you've already explained this, but their role in the church and particularly for young women who feel that they have the gift of teaching and leadership, and what God, according to his word has for them. Just so I would just say, a couple of things I would say, number one, the bible, never teaches that Christian women's place is to be spent in the kitchen in the laundry basket. And, you know, just taking care of little children, and changing diapers in perpetuity for the rest of your life. I would simply stay the God has a plan for women in. It's a wonderful plan, but anytime that we've violate the very blueprint that God has put in place. It's the question is to question. God is to question his word. In fact, if you go back to the garden of Eden, and you look at that first sin, you will see that is precisely what Satan did as the tat eve is he caused her to question the validity and the sufficiency and the supremacy and really the errands of God's word and saying he did with, with Jesus in the wilderness, as well using God's own word to mean something that it didn't. Absolutely. So he's been twisting scripture. For a long time, and we need to be aware of that. But what we must understand is that the feminist mantra, if you will, this agenda that women have to do everything that men do in order to flourish in society. A use all of their gifts. I think is a mistake. In fact, if you just look at the mainstream television networks, and you see the commercials that are being circulated on those stations you'll see, you know, little girls who are, you know, their position next two little boys who were going out onto the football field. You'll see even in entertainment circles. You'll see women who are now going into imitate rings and fighting light men. I mean, this is something that the feminists have been trying to do for very long time. If you go back to the garden of Eden, you'll see that Satan's very first attempt to, to sway eve was to really question the very validity of the bible to question the sufficiency in the era of God's word. He's been twisting scripture for centuries. And so he's very good at that what we need to understand, though, is that God has a very special plan for women in. It's not that they are to only be in the kitchen or are in the laundry, basket or just changing diapers in perpetuity for the rest of their lives there, you know, that there's a very special place for women in God's redemptive plan. And you'll look at that, and you'll see in the bible, you'll see that Paul alludes to this. When he's talking to his son in the faith Timothy, he says, remember who taught you the word and he's talking about unison lowest. He's talking about his grandmother and his mother. So women have very unique calling into invest to be on the front lines. If you will, to invest in their children, to teach them the scriptures you can go through history. And you can read about the giants of church history who have stated things like you know my mother, never preached a sermon in her life, but she, she's far more powerful. Than any of the preachers that I've heard in, in church history because of her investment in prayer her investment in the teaching of the discipleship of the home, if you read Charles Spurgeon, you're gonna find that he talks about the, the investment of his mother in her prayers and the prayers around the supper table and the prayers at the bedside and things of that nature. So what we need to understand, is that God has a very high calling for women, but anytime that we deviate from God's blueprint. It's going to be very problematic in that has been the very goal of Satan from the very beginning. We need to be very cautious of that. I think it's a little bit of idolatry to for women to look at the particular station that got his said, look, I've got so much for you, Christian women. But this station of elder this station of exercising teaching authority over a man. That is not for you. Because like you said of the creation order, that was set up with Adam. And even also the order that we see reflected in Christ in the church. That's a very gospel centered in gospel, or deigned order. That is purposeful. It's not just this kind of cultural context of saying, sorry. The woman back then were stupid. And so you, they couldn't say anything. No, it's actually rooted in creation, which, again is reflected in the New Testament, like I just said, but also for women who like me, my whole life have been very outspoken and have loved to lead into organiz to talk about things that I'm passionate about. We also see throughout the bible. There are places of leadership for women that God uses women for, but for us to say, well, no, we need access to everything or else. You don't really love us is unfortunate. I think mistrust of God's plan his sovereignty his love for women. We see in Jesus, exactly how God thinks of women how, how much he relates to them how much he attends. To them is attentive to them in the same way that he is a man. But there are different roles there different responsibilities in their different stations in what I would want a woman to take away from that is not that God loves you less, or that he sees you as any less dignified, or any less worthy or any less smart, or that you can't you're, you know, you're not a good teacher, something like that. But that it's different in. There is a purpose behind that, and for us to be able to take a step back and say, you know, even if this does hurt my ego. Even if this does hurt my pride, I trust God's word, and I trust that he does this because he, he loves me as we see on so well in the New Testament you're spot on alley. And I think that the feminists have have been very successful in turning this idea of, submission, biblical submission into a pejorative into something that's that's, you know, looked down upon in our culture. And I think that that's very unfortunate. Look, I have the privilege to serve as a pastor. And I served as the pastor of very intelligent women in our church that there is a particular young lady in our church that knows Greek. And she can converse with us on the highest level. Yes. For biblical interpretation, and she puts her gifts into use within the life of our church, but she knows that she has a role that God has placed her in she's not willing to go outside of that particular role because she wants to honor God. And so, again, you mentioned selfishness earlier in an idolatry, and I think that a lot of this movement is very much rooted in that. Yeah, well, thank you so much for inside. I think this is going to be very encouraging clarifying for people who maybe have been watching this conversation in, they just don't know what to make of it. They like people like Beth Moore who are kind of on the other side of this, and they also like people like you and almost or who seemed to be on the opposite side in. They're trying to just reconcile it. But at the end of the day, what we all have. Remember is that any reconciliation of two opposing ideas can be found in the word of God? And, and I agree with you wholeheartedly that the word of God supports the different roles for men and women, and the equal value of men and women. So thank you so much for your insight. And thank you for all the hard work that you do. If you could tell everyone where to find you and anything that you would like people to know you're not sure chew things you can find me on my blog. I write at delivered by grace dot com. I'm also a on active on social media like Twitter, you can find me there at Josh by also on the founding director of the G three conference held each January Atlanta would love for you to come. Join us this January were having a worship conference. So the entire theme is going to be focused on, on the theme of worship. And then Finally, I would just simply state that if you're not a follower Jesus Christ. You need to know that you have sinned against God, that you have transgressed his. Law in the you deserve just like all of us all humanity, you deserve the wrath of God. But if you would turn to Jesus Christ by faith believing that he died for you in substitution airy way and call upon him for the remission of your sins. The bible says that you will be safe that God will reconcile you to himself through the very blood of his son. And so I want to encourage anyone who might be listening to this who's not yet a believer to turn to Jesus Christ by Amen. Thank you so much. I think it's a great note to end on. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. Thank you. Ali have a great day. Thanks. He tale. I hope that you guys got some insight from him on this topic. Like I said, this is something that I'm going to cover in depth from a biblical perspective. Of course, as we always do at this summer and go back to what scripture says about our role, particularly for someone like me. Maybe you're out there, and you can relate to someone who likes to teach. One who loves to talk about God's word someone who loves to lead. What does it look like to flourish in the strengths that guide gave us that I believe that I was born with, what does it look like to flourish in those roles in still be in full submission, to the word of God? I think it is extremely possible. I don't think that it is necessary for us to compromise at all on the talents that we've been given by God or on a obedience to God, I think it is always possible for us to do both to the glory of God. So I'd be interested to hear maybe where you disagreed on this subject, as you could tell I disagreed with him on a few things. But if you have any thoughts I would love to hear from you Alliott the conservative millennial blog dot com. Feel free to send me an Email, or of course, message on Instagram and I will see you guys back here on Monday for the all Aji Monday.

Beth Moore southern Baptist convention Timothy ISM southern Baptist church Georgia Donald Trump Josh Bice Adam founding director Douglas county Baptist church Athens Atlanta Matthew ECOWAS YouTube John piper Chile
Experiencing God Review, Part 1

Christian Podcast Community

25:52 min | 1 year ago

Experiencing God Review, Part 1

"The word of truth so we can worship God in spirit and truth deepening our knowledge of God thereby enabling us to deepen our love welcome to where we are studying to show ourselves approved rightly more for mainstreaming the idea of personal private revelations than any other book or any other author Henry Black Abi did yeah goes unquestioned in Non Charismatic Churches At least theoretically non charismatic churches and in this experiencing God I remember my first exposure their own books on how to hear the Voice of God and in what used to be relegated strictly to the charismatic churches is now mainstream in practice prominent false teacher but even the supposed good guys and the supposed good gals the theoretically non charismatic preachers and teachers they all have two it was in college at Mississippi State and it was taught at our Church Southern Baptist Church so this was mid nineties my first exposure I think that's right it's not like the whole content and just of the book is right fresh in your consciousness so I'm going to introduce the book right now I'm GonNa fire some and today I'm kind of hijacking the radio program instead of Justin and Justin is going to be my guest not to be interviewed about his book but about we're GonNa talk about another book logical discussion back and forth about some of the things that we see in the book and concerns that we have with the book and talk about pluses and negatives and it doesn't even necessarily have to be books that we would have concerns and we're going to do programs of book so we're going to start doing theological book reviews book reviews reviews of books that Justin and or just an or I have read and and and this'll be just intended to we take any kind of book we could do Wacky Bucks winning books novels theological books books on economics history the civil war nations at you and then you and I can react to some of the things that we see in the book experiencing God with Henry Block could be now you've said that that book is probably did this yeah he is southern Baptist from Canada he southern Baptist but whereas forty plus years ago almost every non cares experiencing God and Justin before the program today before we started recording said that he doesn't really remember too much from the book a whole lot from the book you do it's been awhile since you went through it so as of programs and this is not going to be an uninterrupted series but we're going to do this occasionally a record a little program like this because it's going to drop it into Justin's rotation at the time it it came out it was published in ninety three if memory so kind of the early to mid nineties block of Southern Baptist he you're hearing is not Justin Peters I don't have that handsome southern drawl the Justin has instead I'm Jim Osman I am one of the teaching pastures Kutina Community Church where Justin attends matic evangelical would have understood that we talked to God in prayer God talks to us in the Bible that would have been unquestioned that was the standard out now it but we're going to we're gonNA take books that we have read or one of us as red and we're GonNa Review them give you kind of an overview of the book and then have a field earn even listen I think so Jim I think experiencing God opened the floodgates to what we see now with every not every not only every experiencing God by Henry Black Abi and so Justin welcome your own program but you tim honor to be here so we're GONNA do we're we're starting to series with we could see record Do Justin Peters book or John Macarthur Walker any any book that we want we're going to do so the book today is now hardly anybody understands that charismatic or nine cares no matter hardly anybody understands it we talked to God in prayer God talks to us in the Bible for any subject that we want to cover the civil war northern aggression are avid right there I'm almost got out of the habit of saying that in your presence and I think again largely because of experiencing God in all the Spin Offs and tail resources that have come as a result of that privatized private revelations regarding what God is doing in the world and how you can join him so the gist of the book as far as a formula goes is he he borrowed activity and but as part of that seeing how God works is also is believed that that in order to show us where God is at Work God will speak to us through that's just almost unheard of what could be done the book as he tries to teach you how to hear from God or at least how to see how God is speaking and giving personal God speaks to a so of course the Bible is in there the gut speaks to us in prayer he reveals her speaks to US gives his private revelation through our circumstances speaks to us through who let me see black be gives the the five five things through the Holy Spirit the Bible prayer circumstances and the Church these are the five means by which guy so I give you a couple of quotes from the book Justin Maybe you can just interact with these he writes quote the testimony of the Bible they didn't put off the red flags would today obviously with my standing today I bought that book and gave it to a lot of folks as gifts and of course I regret that now Jesus in John Chapter Five when Jesus said all that the father does he shows me the sun and I do all that the father does and in black a B C's there a pat genesis to revelation is the God speaks to his people in our day God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit he uses the Bible prayer circumstances and the Church Bible prayer circumstances in the church no one of these is by itself a clear indicator of God's directions and assumed open oh that's Bible is not enough in and of itself should not be taken as in and of itself authoritative and definitive ace value that no one of these is say that again you'll know one of these methods of got speaking is by itself a clear indicator of God's directions so did these five one of these methods of gut speaking by itself is a clear indicator of God's directions close quote when you take that statement at its study and really trying to see how God would lead us as a church in what he would do for us and and though I have some concerns with a little bit of how he was using some of the scriptures that I didn't the words of a of those who are in the church at other believers and of course through the Holy Spirit so I would have to add that my own that a statement like that would fly in so far so well under the radar of ninety nine point nine percent of evangelicals from you and I would would reject the other four methods as a way of God's speaking directly in a direct quotable sense outside of scripture but the Weirdo following the pattern being that we are two that we're looking to see where God is at work and then joined him there and we are to sacrifice and obey and join in God's my own experience of experiencing God you were exposed in the mid nineties I was exposed to it in the late ninety s shortly after I became a passer nineteen ninety-six I I found the book I got the we'll be able to hear when God is speaking to you so that is the premise of the book is written to teach you how to hear God's voice outside of scripture things you need more than in testimony two or three witnesses everywhere it'll be establish straight so you know any more than just one source of authority so you have these five you've got the Holy Spirit anyway here's his really says in the introduction black be writes quote whatever your present circumstances may be migrants prayer is that somehow as you read these pages you that God has done a lot of talking in we have it in the pages of scripture wreck God is not silent we had in the pages of scripture but this assumes that back could be lays out and one of the things I think appeals I should say to believers is this notion that God desires a loving relationship with us book I read through it I enjoyed it and loved it so much that I took all of our elders through it and as and it's a true story and three dollars or four dollars of our church at the time it to the belief that God's Word is an whether or not they believe that personally it's another matter but they'll have to give lip service to that belief but where the battles being fought today is a streak in horror it's what I do because no one of these one of these one of the five is the Bible scripture has anything that God would say that is that is a shocking statement yeah it the fact that that that that kind of teaching aside see Jim this goes to what I say often my teaching the battle today is not theoretically so much over the inadequacy of scripture any any any any evangelical who would want to have any kind of following release have to give lip service God's word sufficient and we're losing that battle big time at the in fact you could say that battle has been lost in evangelical churches loving relationship is a personal one and so we of course have to hear God if he's going to speak to us just as just as speaking to you now what kind of a relationship they're doing for Jesus the revelation of where the father was working was his invitation to join the work is that what Jesus is describing John Chapter five the Jesus this is answering the Pharisees and Jesus answered and said of them truly truly sat this John Five nineteen the sun can do nothing of himself unless something he sees the father doing for whatever the father does out there is a is a it's a sad testimony to how biblically illiterate and theologically obtuse unfortunate I don't mean to be ugly Jesus knew how to do the father's will was to watch to see what the father was doing Jesus watched to see where the father was at work when he saw he did what he saw the for whatever the father does these things the son also does in like manner for the father loves the Sun and shows him all things that he himself is doing and the father will show him Joie state of discovery as as Henry Black be would would portray it Jesus submitted hours doing so he would know what to do he didn't know that that's not at all what the what the text is saying Jesus God incarnate of the but I mean that is that is a shocking statement yeah the I I will just move on I was going to say something about it I think you've covered that one of the premises that that and this is before we are elderly church so three of myself I was I was in I was an elder but I wasn't recognized as one we went through this experiencing God book and the Bible who the he's the author frequency how to hear the voice of another one of those out here the worst God books and say the same thing that what kind of relationship is it well if you have a free loves the son and so the father reveals to Jesus what he is doing and invites Jesus to do those same works how would you answer that what would you say about John Five in that full revelation of God that we have a perfect sufficient record of that in the in the scriptures so one of the hand and you're you're the only one who does all the talking and your friend doesn't say anything what kind of friendship what kind of relationship is that well that that ignores the fact many problems with black busy he takes things that are descriptive and make some prescriptive for US earlier in that same passage Jesus God loves us and he wants that relationship to be a two way relationship and the God wants us to experience his love and to join him in his love and and that this this is to be omniscient and that's that's a a gross misinterpretation of Philippians two the CANOSA's theory but no Jesus was not in this perpetual her then you're in trouble at the heart of your Christian experience your Christian life you can't live out the Christian life unless you're hearing this opposes context there or do you want me to hit that down the father shows Jesus yuccas bites us to do the same here's what black he says in his book quote the key way that I have the right to work on the Sabbath just as the father does we do the same work because we are of one substance and that's why they picked up stones stone him in John Five eighteen and the Jesus answer to that was not doing that on the Sabbath and Jesus answer to them was the father works on the Sabbath and I'm myself in working in other words I and the father are one that was Jesus saying I think the capitulated that ground entirely they're not willing to fight on that completely seated it so his his is premise comes from John Chapter five where Jesus self to the father in role but not in character not in nature us always has me an is now will be equal with the nature with the on he writes quote does God really speak to his people in our day Yes will he reveal to you where he is working when he wants to use you yes God has not changed he still speaks to me great works in these so that you will marvel so in in the past is there a black Avia saying that Jesus is saying the father ads and all you've got is the Bible in dwelt by the Holy Spirit who aluminum meaning of scripture to you if that's all you've got you're in trouble you're in trouble you're in trouble visit vice speak to you you're never respond back to me that would be what he what he would conjecture right and that's prominent that's that's I've heard recently Robert Morris around and received extra biblical the father showed you oh that's what the father's doing walking although join the father and network right no insurance search in your ministry unless you're getting private revelation you can't hope to possibly be obedient to his word what he is saying to you unless he is speaking to you right now this is not a a a model this is not a paradigm for us to follow this we can't look at that and say oh well Jesus was was discovering he didn't know so he had to look see what the outside of scripture speak to you you can't possibly know how to do God's will because you can't he can't reveal to you what he is doing right now in the moment in your neighborhood that is a a a shocking statement as well because what black could be as saying is if if you have trouble hearing God speak to you in a direct quotable sense outside of Scripture said my father's working until now and I myself in working see this whole statement where wh- black takes as a pattern for us to follow the will of God and to know the will of God and the answer is no because nobody has no you haven't I haven't John MacArthur hasn't nobody is so if you don't if you haven't like Sarah Young when she says quote I knew that God communicated with me through the Bible but I yearn for more all these people who think the Bible's not enough that apple if you have trouble hearing got speak you are in trouble at the very heart of your Christian experience close quote so hit for for Black Abi if you are not hearing something you've got to the Bible's not enough the Bible is not sufficient it's not enough we've got to have more in Jim for all of these people that that would God is knowing clearly when God is speaking if the Christian does not know when God is speaking he is in trouble at the heart of his Christian life those quote that fully plumbed the depths of God's word from Genesis to revelation then how can you possibly say the Bible's not enough you don't even understand what you have right in front of you right it's a shortcut it as a shortcut it's it's a lazy way out right we are to Labor in the word we are to rightly divide God's Word author in his character and his nature but he did submit himself in in in role to the he submitted himself to the to the leadership of the father but this is Charlton Heston what are they sound like you know all these people talking about how they hear God speak to them so if you're one of these poor knuckle want to revelation twenty two was in twenty to twenty one have you exhaustively plumbed the full depth of every verse in the Bible to Be Clear Ladies and gentlemen the he's this was not just a this was not just one offer him so it's not just this happened he missed phrase it because later and then that of course he races the entire premise of lack of his book a black would be says at one point in chapter ten quote one critical point to understanding and experiencing still small voice or God is speaking to you and your head and I always want to ask people what does God sound like is does he sound like James Earl Jones or whatsoever the people in the Bible had no doubt that it was God speaking to them but as you respond you'll come to the point that you recognize his voice more and more clear ten to three or four and fourteen Jesus said he who enters the door is the shepherd of the sheep the sheep follow him for they know his voice I am the Good Shepherd and I know my sheep and I am known by my own more and more clearly now I noticed two two things there the contradicted each other when God speaks you will know that it is him there will be no uncertainty edit that not at all because that well I mean that gets that almost leads you into open theism then when Jesus was in Carnet on the earth that he somehow gotTa have something more my question for them is have you exhaustively plumbed every verse from Genesis one ought to back up and say well you know what I mean you misunderstood me his answer was to double down and say yes the father is working and I'm working and what the father does I do being one is not Jesus describing to us how to know the will of God she's describing his deity because he had just healed Amanda was crippled at the pool but does and and they critiqued him for and then he says in the same chapter the key to knowing God's voice is not a formula as God speaks and you respond you will come to the point that you recognize his voice Jesus going okay so let me give you another quote for black of his book because in this book it's all filled with Formula Yeah I love it I love it when an author says person had no doubt that it was God and he knew God was saying when God speaks to you you will be able to know he is the one speaking and you will know clearly what are you saying to you in was it was speaking exactly what he what he said I would agree with the latter of that there's one exception to the first part of that the Samuel when he was a boy truth and that's that's hard work but yet that that's what we're commanded to do so but it's so much easier if we can just get awarded knowledge if we can just hear st so the formula is hearing speak through these five sources right and rely which are in enough on their own none of which are enough on their own so that's part of the formula following since with him he keeps the universe spending on the Sabbath I keep the universe spending on this Atta the upholds all things by the word of his power he's not describing a pattern for knowing and doing God's will that's not accurate isn't it no it's not the there were there were times there was four hundred years between the old and New Testament I didn't say anything nothing at all what do you mean it's not enough you haven't you don't understand what you've got in front of it's a nonsensical thing so it is hard work to plumb the depths of what is written it's so much easier just to get private revelation not a formula he says a correct formula is not the way to hear God's voice either if Moses had been around today he would have been tempted to write a book about how to know God's voice and Burning Bushes then up your batting average you remember that you got your batting average but yet in the people in the Bible they they knew exactly you know so black offers us to us again and again he'll say this hearing God's voice is not a matter of the formula but here's the formula right frequent thing though no that is correct he says under under subtitle called he initially heard God he didn't know who it was at first but he did here he did know exactly what God said because visions and dreams were infrequent in those days Samuel says yes yeah yeah they were but even in the days which was speaking primarily to the prophets to Moses to Isaiah Jeremiah even even then it was it was not people all over our land would be out trying to find their burning Bush so he's saying that's not what he means by not a formula is you can't take one pattern of Moses and how Moses News Yeah and see this kind of notion this gave rise to all the other book this gave rise to Jesus Calling Sarah Young about which you have written in society give you a formula for doing this but here the seven steps five reasons in the three sub steps to this and here's the whole chapter describing what not to do and ten things not to do some things to do Maurois God just call us on on the bat phone is thanks for that image I got that in my mind right now yes flashing red phone change that pattern and John Five is the formula sheet here my voice as part of the formula so here's what he writes when God chose to speak to an individual Bible I'm quoting when God chose to speak to an individual in the Bible for in we have I'm probably chasing around we have this idea that God was speaking to all the people all the time all throughout the days of the Bible but that's not picked up stones at the end of John Chapter Eight tried to kill him called him a liar and a bastard child and illegitimate and all of that the reason they did that the reason they hated him it calls his seat to himself salve ethically when that call becomes a factual we use that term the effectual calling in the sheep go to the shepherd that's every last one of those guys abuses John Chapter ten absolutely just abuses it in its context it's horrible what they do that passage and I would say visit John Tana's is a is a salvation passage my sheep his own no his voice they know the voice of the shepherd and they go to him when the shepherd the will of God and make that the template for everybody after that but ironically then black could be will come in and say but the one template for Jesus and the father of to do with it here at the end of the book so until next time may the grace of Lord Jesus Christ with you thank you four guide your is your host Justin Peters Ladies and gentlemen this is the Justin Program but the voice is because they did not belong to him and so what is it that distinguishes those who do not believe from those who do believe it's the summer his sheep and those who are his sheep will hear his voice accompanied him and he so that becomes the template for us right that's his formula right so let's say it's not a formula you you can't take the burning Bush you can't take the still small voice you can't take this you can't take that there's not one temple president of the Flat Earth Society working for Nasa what these things is not like the other bright and John Tan passage when Jesus talks about his sheep knowing his voice that's not Jesus is not talking about he's not if you do not know how to handle John Chapter ten you are not capable of handling any passage of scripture right if you get that wrong you are utterly disqualified if you cannot see that had nothing personal rebel the frequency guy was a frequent more Robert Morris Henry Black Ob What's the other book that I've read recently Oh Dallas Willard hearing God Asia that's the new birth that's not God telling me what Tytler Lloyd yet that's ninety nine percent of evangelical thing my seat no my voice but but then he does lay out for us a formula by which we can hear God's voice and we need to talk about the things Holy Spirit prayer circumstances the church in

Henry Black Abi Church Southern Baptist Church Mississippi ninety nine percent four hundred years three dollars four dollars nine percent
134: Mike Savage and God'd Great Self-Sacrificial Love

Halfway There | Christian Testimonies | Spiritual Formation, Growth, and Personal Experiences with God

56:38 min | 1 year ago

134: Mike Savage and God'd Great Self-Sacrificial Love

"Friends will welcome the halfway there. This is the show where we have honest conversations with ordinary Christians about today's Christian experience. I'm your host Eric Devon's in 'em super glad that you are here. If you have not checked out have we their podcast dot com, we have archives. We have free giveaways. We have there's also some bible studies creating for you. I want you to go check that out and see including one of the most recent which now is celebrate with Jesus little ache day journey in the wedding at canine John chapter two today. This is going to be a really interesting conversation. I think you're going to enjoy it today. Our guest, he's a fellow podcast or he's an author. And he's also a former criminal mastermind he he is, Mike savage. Mike. Welcome halfway there. Eric, thanks. You very much. I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your story with us. Tell us a little bit about who you are what you're doing. You. You mentioned your podcasting tells about all that. Yeah. My wife, and I do a podcast called, the savage perspective, and it is obstensibly Christian. But we'd like to kind of have a little bit of fun. I rely awful heavily to about Lord sits in the heaven laughing. And so we're I'm a little more reverent and is not as if you're laughing. You can't be Christian. I know I've been around a lot up type people tell you what fair enough in in my life. But excuse me, the adjunct professor I teach psychology sociology. I teach most the logical topics. I'd be getting course, pretty soon on theological ethics which made me laugh when they asked me to do it because of my background. I teach that I teach a lot of the studies. I will die. Dabble in languages on occasion. But it's just gonna be with syntax dot going to teach from stop from beginning. And a lot of adjunct professor podcast or author wrote my memoir after hurricane Harvey it and God said, look, I'll give you some time. And so I'm able to do that. So that's that's pretty much my life. Live your own Padre island with my wife and two dogs. I put her I that I. Smart. It's a smart, man. Happy life was happy wise sounds like the voice of experience. I'm just saying. You know? And so I'm trying to just see where God's leading. And it's it's been it's been a journey. And it's and it's life is fun right out pretty isolated are the islands. So there's days when I don't see anyone my wife the dogs. So a lot of time to talk with God. And listen, so it's fun existence right now. Yeah. Fantastic. Awesome. Okay. Well, I want to hear all about it. So and I should mention right here that I just had the opportunity to be on your show, a savage perspective by the time. This comes out that will have been a little while ago. But links are in the the show notes that podcast dot com. You can check that out if you wanna hear more from Mike, and I talking and chatting a little more from from my perspective. Great. Yeah. So tell us about your story where are you from Texas or you? Where'd you grow? I I was born in Florida stayed there. With my parents until age eleven my dad got laid off when the space program backed off. He was he was not Tricia and for a lot of the subcontractors for the space program. And he was laid off we've moved to Denver, Colorado. He went to work there in golden Ashley for brewery, and as an electrician, and so my teenage years I spent in Denver lived in Lakewood, the president of Green Mountain high school president. Great and played football there. A little bit of time playing football for CU until discovered that mine through Seattle for the game did not have the same talent level and left that and got into broadcasting. It was the news director at the world's smallest CBS affiliate in Goodland, Kansas. And most of you were in Colorado or Goodland is they don't wanna go there the past report ever. So nobody also got a Kansas, Mike. No. But my wife is from Kansas. I know she graduated from K you, but I met her in. And then ultimately ended up moving to California took over as the program director for radio station and have been surely undecided. I don't like meetings. So I wanted to the talent and and became a radio talk show host. And I'm not the Michael Savage thinks about today when I was I was Mike savage and did that for a few years got into crime. And ended up in federal prison for fifteen years, two months and twenty eight days. Now, I got out in two thousand seven and it was quite a learning curve for a southern boy with no understanding of cell phones or anything like that. So that's fascinating. Okay. We're gonna talk about all of that. So tell me about your like what it was like growing up your religious kind of experience, whereas Christian family was it not was it was like. We went to southern Baptist church. And I didn't understand it didn't understand. What's being said didn't want to really understand my life? That point was thinking about football. It was all I really thought about and I was baptized because everybody else in the youth group was being baptized. So I was baptized and say, I never really understood never really put anything into it. As far as understanding compassion. Any of those things I have no understand we moved to Colorado attended another southern Baptist church again paying any attention. I'm getting into my teenage years, and you know, being rebellious and doing that sort of thing. But I never really understood got my dad was a deacon of a church are of the church, and my mom was perpetually ill with one building or another. It was one of those. What we can't quite figure out what it is type of thing and got hooked on painkillers and all the things that they would prescribe back then. So most of my time was spent, you know, taking care of the house taking care of my mom because my dad had to work. Never really got into talking to pastors or I thought then the kids that were real holy rollers on the in the in the in the thing, I just didn't relate to I didn't get it. I mean, they probably did. But I did. So I was pretty much knucklehead, but at the same time had no interest. Okay. See we're going to church, but didn't really care care, and we had to go. It was it was Sunday. We went to church. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay. All right. So girl out I just need to know this. So I know where we're going are you did you end up finding Christ in prison. I did he did. Okay. So then tell us what it was like beforehand. And then I want to ask like how you got how you became a criminal mastermind 'cause I just can't wait to hear that story. But how did you how did you like what was it like spiritually for you up until that time? What I went to prison. I was not religious at all zero religion. I was placed into. To the kitchen as a as a worker there and began the to learn the process of making what's called pruneau, which is homemade alcohol in presidents. Of course, it's not supposed to be there by this. Why start making and I ran the gambling heart for the guys who were betting football baseball bet on anything, you know. So I was involved in that. And I was doing okay with that. You know, it was one of those where kept busy assure. My wife was gonna leave me at any point. I just said there's no no brainer. You're not going to wait around for me. And so I was trying to do what I could do a prison and then one day I got transferred to the chapel as a chapel clerk. And I didn't understand why was being transferred. I liked my job. I made money doing that, you know, selling this stuff, but it just showed up on the job change orders. One day that I was to go to the to the chapel, and I got there, and I met the chaplain. Very nice man southern Baptist by the way. Very nice, man. I why am I here? And I used a couple of swear words, and that kinda punctuate the point that I really don't wanna be here. And he said, you know, I see something in you. He says, I read your jacket. It's it's the report that the federal grow prisons and F B and organized crime task force people combine all this stuff, and they read about and this is supposedly who you are. And he's just see something in you. And I think that you'd be benefit here. And I said, well, I do not want to be here. And he's just let's just give it a try and see what happens. So basically, it was organizing all the stuff for all the religious groups their room services, all that kind of stuff, and it was basically a paperwork type of thing. And I'd have to talk with the N mates and do all that kind of the all new me because I was doing the gambling and making the promo, but the deal was totally different when they were at the chapel than they were on the on the regular compound, and then the rest of the prison. Holy the holy the nation is almost wholly Catholics are holy Protestants were holy. They're just everybody was holding Wicca was holy rose native Americans. So I'm there and my job was to make sure that all the services went on. And I was last guy to leave last prisoner to leave every night. And so it was it was a Saturday night. We had a guest group coming in. They came in. They they did the preaching the singing I'm sitting in the back now just kind of waiting for this to get over. And I'm sure cynthia's gonna leave me. My wife is just you know, she's gonna divorce and she has to who's going to wait for somebody for fifteen years. No one's going to wait for somebody. I thought people leave their wives leave them a month after they came into prison. They had a two year thing to do just that. You don't stay is just doesn't happen. Yeah. So I'm sure of that I'm depressed about it. I'm angry and upset at myself about something happened and this guy's preaching. And I don't know how many times I've been through listening to the centers prayer and all the things they do at the end of service, right? And. I'm kinda just at that point where he's come put my head down and said look God, I know you're real. But I'm a prisoner a piece of garbage sitting here, and I prayed the prayer and. The peace of God, Eric well came into me. I I I have a little problem when it comes to to thinking a linear fashion, you know, nextstep next up next up. Yeah. I mean, I I can't do. Simple math. I can't do a checkbook Cynthia let me near the check. I can I can do statistics. Like, I'm doing for my for psychology. But I because they're patterns I see things in patterns. I understand things in patterns all patterns to me if I don't see the pattern. I don't understand it. So I'm lifting up all this stuff in my life to him, and he's taking and there's this piece, and that's the only way I can describe it. And I didn't even know how. Unpeaceful? I was until the moment that the peace of God hit me. And it was it was absolutely a life changing y faltering experience that he explained it back to me and patterns of how things he was doing. I don't know how to show you in my head that the pitch, but he was explaining to me, you're forgiven. Yeah. You did that you're forgiven? So. I was saved at that point. Yeah. Well, that's that's beautiful story. I love that guide. Spoke to you in a way that you could understand right? Like, he because he only way I could have understood because he knows you right? Because he knows what what is. How your brain wired, and how you need to need to hear it. All right. So that is a really great like I'm glad you told that story. So I wanna know how you got there. So tell us that story. And because. Yeah, you're right. Nobody expects your wife to stay with you. And if I think I remember reading this that you didn't know your criminal mastermind, the sort of came out of the blue tell how did you become a criminal mastermind? How'd you end up there in the first place? Our first of all we need to make it clear criminal mastermind as irony title. And the reason that became part of the title of the book is at the time when when the federal government was indicting people everyone was a criminal mastermind from from guys like me who were moving money doing your national to the to the street drug dealer that had somebody else workout criminal mastermind. Yeah. So it was it was a standard phrase. So I was I was doing my talk show. Oh, and I I had a person on the on the show that. Used to get a lot of phone calls irregular. And I'm not gonna say who it was or anything say that it was a regular, and we had opened up a conversation at the time. I was making. I think it was fifteen hundred dollars a month working at this radio station. And it was not. Yeah. People think that being on the radio glamorous. It's not. But it was this was this was nineteen eighty five and I was making fifteen hundred dollars a month living in Napa, California. And it was tough to make ends meet really really tough. And so this person we opened up a conversation about some things, and she said a look. I know some people that you're interested in some extra work. Yeah. I said, you know, doing what she said. Well, we'll let them talk to you. And all that. So I get a phone call maybe two days later, and they're talking to me and said, let's let's set up a lunch. So we went to lunch at this really fancy place in Napa. And they're saying we need a guy like us. You're pretty charismatic people like you, and we've got some we just need somebody to represent us negotiate some deals, and I want negotiator. I'm not a lawyer or anything like that. So no, Mike, which needs somebody who will tell you. What to say show, you what to do and just needed to it and probably end up to some travelling, but we make substantial amounts money. It's like how much is what we're talking about six seven eight. Well, into my twenty six year old mind as a okay, I didn't ask any questions. I didn't know bells when offer anything like that. I said but in order to do that. I need a half million dollars in my Bank account by the end of the week. This was show me. And they did back in those days, you could transfer all kinds money without having to import the IRS. That'd be it was it was it was free wheeling. There was no internet fax machines were just beginning to become popular the loud, noisy things. Yeah. While it was the wild wild west. And they did that. And I was sold and I stopped asking questions. So basically what I was in the why did you ask for a half a million dollars? Because I didn't believe him thought lunch. They were paying for lunch and believe him thought me this is so astronaut Michael they're never gonna give this to me. Right. Wow. Okay. And they did. And I was. It's on. What I was thinking. Right. Then, you know, this twenty six year old mind to say, let's go and I never asked if as an answering like that. But it's actually what it came down to was opening a Bank accounts meeting with bankers in places across the world. And making sure that we could transfer large amounts of cash or large wire transfers of money into these banks, and then they would send back most of it back in for fear, of course, and it would be clean money. And so yeah, your money laundering. That's all right. And there's a difference between money laundering, and international money laundering. Right launder money in the United States legally could back then I have no idea right now, I have not kept my finger on the pulse of crime. But the the international money laundering was pretty serious because they know that when you're sending it overseas. Trying to hide it. This is not a good thing to have that. And so I just I worked at a Bank for thirteen years. So it's like they monitor everything now, it's very you can expect that so guys like us are me. Well, thanks a lot for screwing it up. Mike. We did. I did we were moving hundreds of thousands of wire transfers all the time. And we get a percentage of it do all that. I was in Hong Kong, I was in South Africa, all these different countries setting up these accounts, and then the government when they found out they couldn't quite figure out what it actually was that. I was doing so called it a Ponzi scheme. And so it was easier for them to explain his upon Z scheme to to a jury than to explain the intricacies of this. I was actually tried under drug statutes for white collar crimes while gives you an idea of how new it was back that now it's nothing. They figured out instantly, and it's money longer. But back then back, then it was just for for drug cases. There was no nothing like that for white collar. Wow. Interesting. Okay. So how did you end up? How did it? How did you figure out that the government was like onto you? And you were like. They rated the house in Napa. My wife was pregnant with with our youngest, son. And they raided the house the F B I I R S organized crime task force US postal inspection service. The all the local police and all that kind of stuff rate at our house. And that's the first time that I knew that they were onto us. And it was the first time Cynthia had any idea that I was doing anything wrong. She thought I was working for an import export company and that was. You know, she's not looking into all that she trusted me. And the first time I knew they were onto moving is the first time they knocked on the door and rated the house. Okay. Well, that's got to be terrifying. It was they took Cynthia way because she was pregnant they took her away. And I didn't know where they were taking her. And so I was I was kind of upset I could've either cooperated at that point or a jerk, and I chose the jerk route because every time I asked him where my wife was. Well, she'll come back when you're through finish when you're finished answering questions, and I just I wasn't having that that wasn't going to. So I was jerk to the the house of partners a huge house and Napa they tore the house up and laughed and brought her back and turns out they'd taken her to two local breakfast place. And had a lady, you know, pretending to be friendly tour to see what she knew what I knew. And all that. And since the new nothing, no one knew anything that was my family or close to me she had nothing to to tell them because she had no idea what was going on. She genuinely didn't know this. Woman. Well, she had no idea. What was hap-? Well, okay. Well, that hasn't implications for your marriage. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It does and did. And when she came back and asked me what was going on. I said don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. And when I said stuff like that she knew that I wasn't going to open up that wasn't a discussion starter. And I knew that anything that I told her potentially I didn't know about the husband wife thing can testify, but I wasn't gonna take any chances. I just froze her out on that. And we things went on for for a couple years before they. Yeah. I thought I was arrested. They ran on the stuff in the newspapers and TV stations about what had gone on. But it went over a period of two years before they actually arrest while. Okay. And so it wasn't like life just happy while you're doing that. While you're waiting. You were like constant tear only that I knew suddenly were gone. The there was a car that used to sit. Outside. We lived on in the hills and sit on the hill and stare at the house, and I know who's newspaper. I didn't know it was a cop's. I didn't know who was that was doing that. And the last thing I was going to do is walk up there and find out. So there was that. So the curtains were drawn all the time every time the doorbell rang was jump thinking, you're about to be taken to prison all of the stuff, and then some people that were involved in the money that was sent overseas decided it'd be wise to file a civil lawsuit and they did that. And so the government and the civil suit began seizing our property. House governor's Bank accounts, all that sort of stuff to where we were the point of of being destitute. We really had no money left to do anything with and. Lawyers that I had suddenly when they could be paid. They didn't stay on the case. The public defend the they were gone. And so it was pretty dire. Honestly, it was pretty dire. Yeah. Okay. So this whole time your because you grew up in a Christian kid. How were you feeling like how are you thinking about where you at all? The. Tell you how that works for me. Some people when they come into difficulty turn to God. Yeah. I've seen that times in prison. Another out of prison people that aren't particularly religious turn to God. I didn't turn to God. I didn't turn to God. Instead, I did something entirely different and began to rely upon myself began trying to think things through and make my own plans of how I'm going to make things happen and what I'm going to do to to fix this. And I never turned to God. I didn't there was there was the idea that I could have. But I didn't. I was so sure that I was the smartest man in the room that I was going to be able to to figure that out which is ironic because later after at saved and was imprisoned and went to seminary and began preaching and teaching was in there. I remember saying to guys rarely look around you. This is the result of our best thinking, and it was being in prison was the result of our best thing. And and so. Ironic. I laughed about that years later, but I just tried to work out things on my own. I was I was I was going to do it. I restore school than I was gonna make app. Well, yeah. That's so interesting. And I think it's let's like, you're right. We have these opportunities, and you can do one thing or you can do the other right? You can either turn to God or you can turn away and that I didn't even turn away. 'cause I didn't even know him at that point. You've what I'm saying? I didn't know his character. I figured if I was good. He would be nice to me, you know, and if I was bad punished, and and I just I couldn't. As difficult for me to to if I'm going to behave. Good. Well, be nice. I want to do because that's why am not because I'm trying to get something from you. And even that my fallen condition that was still the way that I was thinking I earned my way. And so God's grace was was a big revelation to be that Saturday night sitting in the back row that chapel and suddenly having peace descend upon. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like so that moment 'cause you're probably pretty tense like with just sort of you're having a hold all these strands together. And then it all falls apart. And I can't imagine what that's like to go into prison and feel like I'll tell you. There's there's a thing in the book that I talked about where that one point I said to God. And this this was in the midst to your period, I did say something to my said that. Get me out of this. It me out of this. And I'll know your real give me out of this. And again now when I look back on it. I realized that that's exactly what he did. He got me out of it. Well. Well. It was not the way I was in -ticipant ingwer hopeful of looking for a legal technicality. Right. But he was playing a much longer game than that with me. And I appreciate that now. But I do remember the one time saying just get me out this friends listen to that. I mean that in he was playing a much longer game with me like what we expect from God. If we expected that he's playing the long game with us. Yeah. I mean, that's I can attest to that. And I will say this also that it was exactly the right thing. Legal technicality. Wouldn't have changed me? It would just made me a better criminal if all things, but instead he made me a better man better father better husband in. But it took a while. A while fifteen years took a while. And and then even when I got out there were still some pretty rough edges that that had to be dealt with. So. Done with me. Now, I'm just saying I can see looking back some of these really rough edges, but I come rolling out of prison Ebi taking care of too. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. So you find Christ in the chapel that Saturday evening said, right? What happens then because now you finally experienced God really his love for the first time. I don't tell anybody. I keep my mouth shut for two weeks. I say nothing to anybody because I'm trying to figure all this out. I'm trying to understand. Okay. What does this mean, you know? And so I go to the chaplain, and I said, you know, a couple of weeks ago something happened. And I think I got saved. She was thrilled. Right. He was laughing. He says, I know I saw seen the changes in us. I've seen you change. This guy guy. And I said, okay. So now what I said, I got all these questions. I mean, I wanna know all this stuff. And and he said, well, you could study that would probably the best way to do it. And you know, the Bible's a great book, and why don't you you study the bible? Okay. How how do I do that? How do I do that in? He said gotta show you he says there's there's some programs that we've got master live and experiencing God. And all these other bet, you can take those courses. And so I did and it's going. It's to be a little more to that. The one of the volunteers came and said, you know, if you read five psalms every day, you get through the book of psalms every month. And if you read a chapter of proverbs, and you just once a month to go through. So I started doing that. And then I get some questions. I hear somebody say Jesus guy. Yeah. And it's a way to second. Dude. Where's it say that? Yes, god. He's a son of God we talking about Jesus God. And so it's right here in John one one in the beginning was the word. I said, okay. All right. Was to say in the Greek. I mean the words originally written. What does it actually say because I got another bible over here. That says he was a God, you know, the Jove witnessed by a God. Right. Well, so then I get interested in Greek. And I broke out a strong concordance. And I started getting the words, you know, what I'm saying? And I'm looking at the words, and I'm trying to put together the Greek. I'm trying to teach myself a little bit of Greek to figure out what's going on. And sure enough says Jesus got. Yeah. Got so. Okay. Now, the job witnesses are out back not going to be attending there. Okay. The going. One thing led to another. I wanted to know different parts of the bible. So I began reading Genesis chapter from Genesis every day along with solves the proverbs. And then I said, you know, I'd kind of like understand this revelation thing this book at the end, and so I began reading chapter of revelation everyday. And then as time went on over the next couple of months began adding sections, I would read exodus Leviticus numbers chapter from that section one day and every day, and then Deuteronomy I wanted to read that second law, and I broke up all the books and all these different sections. So I had like t eighteen sections in the bible, you know, the short letters long letters, the book of acts is kind of important. So I I read the gospel. So got eighteen chapters as taking me an hour and a half to do a bible study every morning or evening, and I'm getting hooked. In the beginning to see the big picture. Remember, I think in patters in the patterns of God throughout the scriptures. And when somebody said, well, you know after Deuteronomy Joshua things aren't always exactly in chronological order. And the pattern came together. I was trying to quit. Why is John so different? We'll John's not linear. Okay. John talks about the the part about the woman, washing the feet and all that. And all these things are chapters, Lebanon, twelve seem to go. What is I get that? I see the patterns to that. So I'm reading John, and it's lighting up. And then I started reading the commentaries. The word that local award commentary. There is that. Yeah. Those good as I go. You know, what I'm eating this up. And then I start reading the towel mood. The tau mood is are also right. And something that I pick up the Koran and usual, I almost got stabbed by a couple of Christians when they saw me laying my bunk reading the Koran when night, what are you doing? But I'm reading the Koran I want to see what everybody else to say about Jesus, and what's some reading all this material. I go to a couple of different services for different groups Catholic that would go Protestant. I'd be doing these different things. Trying to see what we have in common. And then a friend of mine converted to the nation of Islam. And he said you come to one of the meetings. Mike, well, he was new he didn't know bringing in a six foot three big white guy with a long beard, probably wasn't the best. But I went there and made some friends, and we would eat dinner together in the nation. So I had all these native Americans. I go the sweat with them. And we talk making friends, and I was learning scripture, and I was reading commentaries I read Kelvin's toots stand. What what he's trying to say. You know, I'm not sure Calvin would be Calvin est today reading institution, but I had time to do that. And so there was this frenzy of learning. And then the chapel would ask me to speak. Or teach a bible study or do that thing in. And it was there was this dual life again, Eric occur. I was this guy striving after God seeking Thursday wanting to learn, and then there was this other guy knowing that his wife was going to leave him. I I didn't have any kind of certainty. In fact, I was certain that she was gonna leave me. But there was I felt like there was this dual life again like head outside of prison. No, Mike, the dad and all this kind of stuff and Mike the criminal. Yeah. Two totally different Mike. The criminal was not at all. Like how long was it after you were imprisoned that you found Christ through two and a half years two nephews? So you still fretting that your wife is going to leave you. Right. I'm sure I'm not fretting. I'm certain you're going to happen in your dreading. It I tell her on the phone virtually every night that I know she's leaving three separate occasions. I told her I was divorcing her. That's it. I'm going to do it. And I had no way of doing. How do it? I told her I'm divorcing. And you know, they listen to the phone calls in prison, you know, they're monitored. And Cynthia said during that last when she said, no, listen to me, very carefully. Mike if you ever threaten to do that again, I'm going to reach down this phone line and Yankee through it, and you're gonna get another five years for a scape. In. What was it's funny now, but they monitor the phone calls and escape is a word. They take normally seriously. Right. So I get called into lieutenants office. You don't say and told us using very colorful language about how can you doubt this woman? She's with us. You just lock you up in the whole now for solitary confinement just for being stupid. And again, he punctuated it with a lot of colorful, phrases, right? We can all imagine that it was. It was it was lighting me up. And you know, the the thing was everybody said, look she staying with you should even up till I was had been in his long as ten years. I was still certain she was going to lead even though she stayed through the whole thing. Okay. So how did that resolve? What how'd you get to the practical side of the piece I was giving him? I didn't. I didn't I was preaching and teaching. I was deciphering other prisoners. In charge of the chapel last prison that I was at setup choirs that went outside to sing various churches. I completed my degrees seminary Cynthia visited me every single time that that that she could. And I just never got to that. And let me punctuate how bad that is. All right. Just let me just illustrate my turning point my relationship with God as it relates to growing occurred when my wife was going through some pretty severe financial issues. My parents were going through financial issue. She was going through financial issues, and I suggested that they move into gather and pull their resources to. To make ends meet and. I remember calling the first weekend that she was there and in prison, you pay your phone calls back, then there was no collect phone call shed pay any money on your count on and I made twelve cents an hour. And so it wasn't go far so cynthia's to send me twenty dollars every week to put on the phone, and I would call her every night, even if it was just for one minute to let her know, I'm okay, nothing's happened. She knew if I didn't call that. I was in the whole for something for some reason being the wrong place wrong time, saying the wrong thing or or getting in a fight in the the if the prison if I didn't call them the prison didn't call. She knew. I was okay because they would call and tell her dead. If there was there was some well, but she would send me twenty dollars every week input on. And so always I always got the twenty dollars. But on the phone she she was talking to that night the weekend she moved in. And she said your parents are. She's really something. I said, well, yeah. Take a look at me. And. Do you realize that they they go and buy food before they pay their bills? I said, yeah. I mean, their children, the depression, you know, the foods, I the bills come second. I mean, that's just the that was the deal. Make sure there's food in the house, and I saved at the time. And the Holy Spirit said push that a little I. And I sent that you send me twenty dollars every week. It's not like you've been without food or anything like that. Wow. And there was this silence. And. Jay, I get motion everytime while she said there had been times that she made. Sure, the kids were fed. There wasn't a food for her. But she made sure the twenty dollars got sent to me because it was more important to her to hear that. I was ok than to eat. And and. Quickly into that phone call. I said, okay, I understand. Thank you. I hung up. And I was furious with gone furious airy I and I told him so. Is one of those things where? What kinda God are you? That would let an innocent person suffer for me. I'm the one that should be suffering. Not her. How could you do that? And I went to bed furious. I and I go to work with the chapel. The next day in announcing that I'm quitting. I'm not going to be in seminary anymore. I don't do more teaching. And he said why? And I said I told him what happened and he says. Mike, don't you? See that's what Jesus did for us. He suffered from us when I should have been us. Don't you see that? And I started crying. Mad? Don't get me wrong. Enough to be mad, but I broke down. And I understood better the self sacrificing love God through the self sacrificing of of my wife, and that was a turning point for me. It it created a filter through which I read scripture looked at scripture. When I was singing worship songs, it was with that filter in mind. This idea of what my wife had done in order to make sure more important to her that she knew that I was safe, and then she would eat, and I was start writing the book. It was starting out to be an Oma to my wife. You know, it was that was supposed to be. But instead it turned out to be this is this is how God works, and it is often uncomfortable and is often difficult to understand. But when it is finally absorbed through our our layers layers of self justification, cried and ignorance when it finally gets in is a life changer. I mean, absolute life. That's why I make so many jokes. That's why I laugh so often because this is this is one of those things where I know God. And I know he knows me and I. I know that he loves me. And exactly what have I to be afraid of if I'm certain of that. And so giving joy, and I can make fun of things, and I can laugh and joke about myself other things, but to get there, I go through some rather painful difficult and embarrassing things including writing the book or even talking about this. The man with pride wouldn't because I'm not saying all my pride has gone on saying that what I'm saying is it's it is in such a way that I understand really what self sacrificing I have experienced it personally in the flesh from my wife. While that is an astounding story that is like how I can't imagine. And this is where got us so good, right? I cannot imagine a better way of convincing. You that not only that she loved you. But that he loved you. How how fascinating but returning to where we started from. When I when I took us down that rabbit trail, hopefully, haunt the rabbit. I still had my doubts until the day. I walked out of prison in there waiting for me. I mean, they were they were they were much lower. I mean because in the meantime, we had to go through the death of both my parents while I was in prison Cynthia went through cancer while I was in prison. All of these things that were. Shaking causing me shake, and we're Shakahb things. But with each one of them, my confidence in her grew and grew and finally the day that I walked out. I still wasn't certain because I wasn't certain what I was walking into his far society was concerned with the expectations were. But there was a there was a growth that was occurring. There was this understanding this is a growth process. This is not an instant of busted, again, Oregon type of thing. This is a this is a real significant thing that takes time the roots are settling in and you'll get better at this while while. Okay. So what was it like to walk out and see your wife like? What? The last day in prison guys are usually worried because if there's another indictment out there coming this comment. Yeah. And so you pack all your stuff up, and I packed up the night before and the guys had a little party for me. And I was awake all night. I'm not going to sleep. And so they they come to the cell like four o'clock in the morning. Okay. I was stuck. Let's go pick up my stuff, and we're going out and walking down the steps and get into the area where I'm going to be waiting for a while. And they let me keep my property when I went into the cell. And so I knew I didn't have another indictment as if they took the property. You got a new indictment coming brother? You just helped him pack up your stuff, that's all. But I keep that. And then I fell asleep and about eight o'clock this guy shows up and he's banging on the cell. How can you sleep? When you're getting out today. Yeah. All right. I got up and then the excitement hit, you know, I'm going to halfway house. Yeah. For six months or what I'm gonna? But I'm not going to be in prison the opened the door and I'm walking out, and I see Cynthia and she's across the the lobby in all these guards in counselors Inc. Case managers come walking up to me to shake my hand say you're one of the real ones. We know you changed go out there and do great things. I mean, they were waiting for me to shake my they came in to to do that, you know. And I'm thinking, I okay, okay. I'm trying to get my wife, but she's smiling issue seeing these people, you know, stop needed to shake my hand, you don't shake hands with with guards or or any of those you don't touch them. They don't touch you unless they're searching. But they they genuinely wished me well walking out. And so it was I didn't realize that until later after Cynthia reminded me when we were driving. Hey, do it was all blur. But I did remember it. And it was it was a kind of a neat time. A humbling thing seeing her across the lobby and you have to go through this group of people to to to get to. Well, that sounds like a amazing moment. That was pretty cool. I have to I mean because you don't know what people think of you. You're you're in there. Especially the guards expect the worst and go from there. But it was it was a really great experience to have that happen. Wow. It would have been killed if I'd gone back in afterwards of some of the inmates seem shaking hands. You know, I'm out. Let's go. Yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. So you get out. That's just God's amazing things of you here. What happens then like so you you're teaching now take? He did seminary in prison. He said, so then what what did you do? What happened? I went to a federal halfway house and the pastors in the chaplains that I admit in prison at all shirt me that I was called to be pastor because it was counseling inmates and I'm teaching preaching. And I wasn't really sure what that was. But I figured if that's all it is all I gotta do is preaching teach and counsel people. I'm in I'm thinking, that's that's all there is to it. Right. So I get out and she takes me halfway house in Oakland. And I am. Immediately on goal Ord at the halfway house because people from all different levels of security are mixed into the same thing. And it's co Ed there's Mayland female, and you can imagine all the stuff that that would be going on in the potential for things because if I mess up at the halfway house after prison for six months, and so I'm not trying to do that. So I get out and first couple of days. It's just organization. I I find that. Okay. Start applying for jobs, and I look, you know, what am I qualified to do? I know how to organize things. I I'm not very good with my hands. I'm okay by across his job at the US department of agriculture. They're looking for people to go out and check flight traps in in the in the bay area for whatever, boss and flies. And so I applied for it and got called in for an interview, and I didn't have card and have a bus pass. So Cynthia drives all the way from from where she was living in Vacaville at the time. It's about fifty miles away from from the halfway house. She drives into taking this interview. And I'm in there and department education guys are saying. Tell us a little bit about yourself in prison. What were you in there for and I told him, and then they wanted to hear the story. So I start telling the story about the prison, and this what did you learn? I said, well, I learned about God. And I start talking about God. And not a not a good interview. Right. But they go out and then come back in and say, we'd like to offer you the job. To go to work for something on gonna work for the federal government. Get paid a decent wage for change. How I'm all smiles. I'm happy. So my wife's out there. Let me go tell her I go out and my wife's all excited to see me. And she says I've got great news the church that your dad used to be a deacon. It wants you to come there and be a ministry assistance coordinator. I, but I got this job at the department of education or department of agriculture, and she's looking at me, and I said, okay. So I go back tall guys. I can't take the job. I have to go to work at a church and put it that way. And they're laughing. You find go to work at this. This church is a ministry assistance coordinator was basically made up job one that they just wanted to get me out of the halfway house, which is cool in the half has come check it out do all that sort of thing. And but they were just happy give me on the halfway house. And you know, go home type of thing. Right. It's I get home and and the job last exactly thirty days in the pastor comes and tells me that the money's run out. Oh, no. And I'm thinking back the halfway house. I mean, there's there's more to it than that. But I'm just gonna leave it at that the money ran out and okay. So I go to work doing construction, and I'm around guys that are very rough very ragged. Some that aren't even supposed to be in the country and all this and my probation officer saying look, Mike, you get caught up in the INS rate or something like that. That's not gonna look good. And and so I'm trying to get through that and get through so into that. And once once I got off of supervised release, and he released me about a month early not surprised to get out of done with a halfway house, which was like six months when that's done. Then I began applying for jobs at colleges to teach because I sort of called to do and one college called me. And he says, okay, let's go through degrees. Let's see what degrees you have. And. See what you're qualified to teach. I'm running through. And he says, okay, where these degrees from and I'm telling him he goes, oh, they're not accredited. So you can't teach at the college level. You're gonna need to go back to school. And that's a gut punch. Yeah. And look I've had problems with my language on occasion in prison. And at that point when Cynthia heard me swearing, she knew that there was something wrong. Tells me, okay. What happened? I told her. She goes on there, where do you wanna go to school at Belk school? She's what else you wanna do construction you enjoying the hat. Call to do come on. So I'm back to school Eric and I got my master's degree in religion in about eighteen months from liberty university. Wow. Which is a credit? Okay. And so the school hired me instantly. But the way they hired me. I was teaching a bible study and phone kept ringing. Account finish the bible study. I go pick up the phone and the guy at the college. So I call him not o'clock at night. What's going on? Mike groovy able to teach. I said, yeah. Sure says okay. He says come down here tomorrow. I said, okay. I'll be there tomorrow. And and he says just be ready to go ready to go. What are you talking? The class starts tomorrow. He's going to start it off gonna bring you in. Oh, teach it, and I guess he believed in me more than I did. Right. And so before I hang up. I listen what class of my teaching and he says historical geography of the biblical lands. That's awesome. No, no. I need a little trading time store geography. Oh my goodness. And I realized I'd never even looked at the maps in my bible. Like, Chris conditioned, the Bible's ten years old. They're pristine condition, and so and I'm going to hold Cynthia. She was old. That's great. What's it about? And I said it's about thirteen weeks. That's about all I know at this point for this class. So I down the next day and things off from there. Described in the book of what it was like being there. But the students just embrace me. I gave this where you're from. What did you do? So I told him, you know, you're in a classroom with guided fifteen years in federal prison, and there is getting big. And then they take me under their wing. They just the students the students were great. And so began teaching other classes went back and got a master's in human services with marriage and family counseling, finishing up my PHD and psychology right now. But I've got enough degrees to to teach cross discipline. So that's that's pretty much. What I do right now. Awesome. All right. Your podcast is called the savage perspective and skin check that out Mike. I talk to you for a long time. We're already already over what I normally do which I love because you're such a great storyteller. And you've got great radio voice. I could just sit and listen to it. And I think it just to give you picture Mike looks like Santa Claus, right? Listen, I'm gonna tell you story before late but grown away you're gonna do right? My we recently had to go back to Kansas for a funeral. My wife's father passed away. And the way, you know, we have our cameras on folks. So we can see each other right now looks you know, he's a young guy and all. And I do kind of look like like Santa Claus. But I get a little irritated hearing all the time. Right. It's like last name savage, and how many fights I got into as a kid. Well, let me show you. I get back there and she got eight brothers and sisters. It's like walking into scene from the godfather, all these people. They're and they're talking every one after the funeral. We go to this little dinner type thing we're gonna and everyone's talking about Santa about this. And then one guy got up my standards, and I'm and I'm feel my hand clinching. But it's it's fun. I mean the little kids around Christmas time, they'll come. Are you Santa? And I remember with one this year. I winked at him. Yep. And I know what you did. You're messing. I love that. I only said it by the way because he posted you'd picture of your next year at the fair games. I did I got a haircut today. There's there's all this hair everywhere. I still come out looking like Santa and the guy who cut my hair he told me later that it was a former prison barber. So like, dude. All right income Jesus Mike, I could listen to you for ever guys. If you want to listen to Mikey can get his podcast podcasts. Applic- up, a savage perspective. Also links in the show notes with their podcast dot com. Also to your book prisoners perspective, the redemption of criminal mastermind, brother. Thanks her share. And yet some really just amazing stories what anything leave us with. You know, the the only thing that I was trying to figure out how guy's gonna end this on my podcast. I just came by. That's it. Right. But the the one thing. I think I would really like to leave people with this your child guy. All right. And I need you to think about that for second about what that means. We can also were children of God. And I realized that taking the classes I understand nowhere. We call the dulzura. God's scripture always children that but I want you to think about for just one second. What that means as far as who your is, the creator, sustainable things all that. You see all that? You don't see the the true God of gods is your dad, and he loves you, even though you may not feel like it right now, he loves you. And I want you to think what you would have to be worried about if you really believe that that was your dad just imagine it for a second. Just get a little bit of an imagination of that. And it will change your life forever. Amen by thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me.

Mike cynthia Eric Devon Kansas Mike savage football John southern Baptist church Colorado Michael Savage president California Napa United States federal government Padre island Jesus
Nate Postlethwait, The Other Side of Saved

Exvangelical

1:08:33 hr | 10 months ago

Nate Postlethwait, The Other Side of Saved

"Loan. Welcome next Angelico House. Play chastain I have run doing well and staying safe in practicing social distancing during this uncertain time of the corona virus pandemic here in the United States and elsewhere. I guess this week is nate postal. Who RUNS THE POPULAR INSTAGRAM? Page and blog. The other side of saved. He talks about his journey of healing from a lot of religious trauma and other types of trauma. So please be advised at. This conversation does include frank discussions of a trauma and Abuse Child Abuse Sexual Abuse. Lots of different types of things that he has addressed through therapy throughout his life. So please be aware of that while listening to this episode. It's a great conversation and I'm excited to share with you as always you can support the show by rating on itunes or apple podcasts. Sharing with your friends or supporting via patriotic at dot com slash exponential pod. This episode was produced by Jake. Lewis very much. Jake enjoyed this show. You may want to check out. No place like home to podcast gets to the heart of climate. Change through personal stories hosts. Marion hit in joyner exploited the biggest story of our time from intimate creative surprising from staying sane age of climate. Change to real talk about whether or not are personal choices really mattered saving no place like home dives into spiritual personal cultural and emotional dimensions of climate change. They don't shy away from science politics but we always bring along since human her. There's enough is teens of hope. Their new season is called. Bring the light which is something that we really need right now. So please check that. Podcast out. Wherever you listen to podcasts on Apple PODCASTS spotify stitcher or elsewhere if you are interested in advertising on expedition go please reach out that contact at expand Joel. Podcast DOT com all right. Let's get into it every body and welcome back to accident. Jellicoe my guest. This week is Nate Postal. Late creator of the plug. Podcast an instagram account. The other side of saved. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much happy to be here. Thanks for coming on. I'm glad you reached out and I'm glad we have a chance to talk about your journey where I like to start on. The show is really from the beginning and get a good sense of where you grew up. And what your your initial sort of experience with religion wise and what your faith of origin was like. So let's start there going into major in the deep deep South Georgia Grew up the youngest of seven kids in a very diehard mission faith-based Southern Baptist Environment and We at my mother grew up in a really religious environment. My Dad didn't know anything about religion in so they're coming together was kind of a a new offspring his family line of him marrying into this new dynamic where they're creating this very righteous life where they have a lot of kids. My mom makes her daughters dresses. And everything is centered around our church like we were Sunday morning Sunday night Wednesday night. We were all in as long as I could. So you are always at the EPA church doing some boys at the Church. And so we're both your parents involved in that church life was primarily an interest of your of your mother's and then we're digit. Was Your father sort of brought along and learn that that part of life on an emotional level. He was kind of brought along but as far as discipline and commitment he was there. I think that she just had a different level of maturity and hunger than he had but they really as a team center their entire life around what it meant to be righteous and honoring God and the rules. And it's what you think of of a southern Baptist church in the late seventies early to mid eighties. It's strict. It's we're talking about South Georgia town of five thousand. People eventually moved to a central Alabama when I was ten but both environments were so similar where everything around religion is about Canada. Bleeding out like making sure that you're completely sold out to Christ in his name and everything was somehow tied into God. There was never anything that was just a normal conversation about life. Everything was centered around religion. Did you have like religious education or was religion president human? If you went to a public school so I went to. School and religion was not present there. But I think that because we were so Insulated in our religion having Bible Study Multiple Times a week in our home that week hot very early on that anyone who did not believe like we believed they were a threat. They were Disobeying they were to be dismissed. They were to be held in your peripheral with a lot of caution because leave the same way and you know when you're a kid you believe that you understand that. I'm the best that a kid can. But it's it's really difficult to make actual connection and the bizarre part was as a child. I remember looking at other people who I can't remember when MTV came out and people had Cable Television Watch MTV House like Oh my God. They are so rich equated to be we were. We were very poor. Very large family and my mom did not work. She worked part time jobs at different like during holidays and stuff like that but for the most part it was just my dad's income supporting a lot of kids right. You know as a kid when you continually have religion to be your all encompassing identity. You're still surrounded by other people who have a lot more quality self esteem assurance that you don't have and they don't listen and I picked up on that to a certain degree very early on but I still had that bend in my mind thinking they're lost and I'm found. I'm say Damn Secure. So do you think that? Your in retrospect was your sort of social circle limited to those people that were not lost like as far as who your family associate with. He became friends with or did you have exposure to people. Outside of that sphere of life. I would definitely say that. It was limited but even the exposure that we did have would always be extreme circumstances a lot of poverty a lot of lot of trauma. I when I think back and I've talked about this lot therapy to the stuff that I saw as a kid while being in church three times a week. It's just amazing that that collision can be in the same group of Holy Shit. We were super religious. Super Deval yet. There was so much trauma when I was still exposed to so much other things that you just you think in your head. How do those two go hand in hand? And that's what took me a long time to to figure out but I finally got a grasp time. Yes yeah and that's definitely a big part of your story right. And that's as far as recognizing what you went through was traumatic in some aspects of Mrs. Something you talk about on your podcast and other places you started to experience those things early on the I think one of the most. I'm forty two years old now and I started going to therapy when I was eighteen and I went to therapy because I felt like I was such a deficit as a human because I've grown up hearing about this guy that was a savior for so long and at that point. I tried everything that I knew to do to rid myself. Shame and be righteous or feel on the inside I wanted. I wanted my soul I wanted. What existed inside of me to match doctrine and I could not get there and I blamed myself for that. I blamed myself for always feeling like I can't present to the Gospel to Christianity. What what they're asking of me. There's not enough envy. There's too much shame but yet the very first time I really ever shared with the therapist I didn't I didn't know to call it. You know sexual abuse but there was a sexual abuse started as early as six years. Old Run from a neighbor that went on for a couple of years and They're probably the most traumatic. I was twelve years old. There was just a very unfortunate timing where I was introduced to this thirty six year-old pedophile. Who went through the full grooming process? Really I think it's since quite a ways away. This very vulnerable child. This is a child that feels very out of place and I was an easy target. In addition to that there was a lot of abuse that went on in our home At one point was removed from my parents home while the super active in their church but There was an investigation over a lot of the abuse that went on with me and my father. So you've you've got this kid who everything in my world. That was good was about God everything that had to do with being a Christian or finding peace had to do with being gutted from the core to become something that matches scripture of matches doctrine. Right that whole he must increase decrease sort of thinking. Yeah or you know what are privileged to suffer in his to share the fellowship of his sufferings. And you think about a young six year old. Who's hearing those messages? And how complicated? That is where his nervous system has been hijacked from sexual abuse. He has all of this trauma living inside of his body. He is doing everything he can to pull everything together in a daily basis to make sure that he is presentable fills loved while on the inside is falling apart because all of the security that a kid supposed to have has been systematically strategically removed. And he's this kind of walking hollow. Shell looking for anything to lead him to the next path. I'm sorry that will happen to you. It's terrible and as an interviewer I feel like I feel terrible. Just having to ask you another question is and I always I always say this interviews. I if anything. I'm extremely comfortable talking about these things. I started working on this twenty four years ago wrong. Haven't talked about it enough and my intent. I I need zero validation about my story. I need the people who are hurting the most who are quiet alone believing that a somehow created the shame that they've experienced created the traumatic experience. I need them to hear. The story can start a process to recognize this nothing to do with me. So I'm open game and buried comfortable and being able to talk about these things okay. Well I'm I'm glad to hear that because I do have more questions so i WanNa return to how you brought up shame and hear from you. A little bit about how that shame was reinforced by the sort of religious experiences that you had the religious teachings and communities that you were a part of Because I think that is something that's really resonant with a lot of listeners. A lot of people that come from fundamentalists or even more general less hardline types of evangelicalism. The sense that as you said the everything. That's what really stood out. Was You said everything that was good had was ascribed to God and everything? That's bad as described to you being in a place. Where your experience? In home when you're experiencing this these traumas and have been subject to these Been abused how did that interact with with all these things? As you said your body is just your body in your mind you're processing and then you're told that the only good thing in the universe's as what God does or who got is sure. Sure so think about you know. We know the message that we all got us. Kids that grow up in the he'd been jellicoe Church in. I would say if you start with masculinity to be a boy or a man a Christian man. It's very specific that that means that you are in love with a woman in your her spiritual leader and you're stronger than her and you work and she doesn't she stays on with your kids. It means that you are. You have a deeper insight and understanding. you are following. Christ and being Godly When you think about all of those things they are. It's not just like Hey. If you're able to do these things then you can check the box. Nba satisfied in the sight of God. It's also however if you are not these things you go to hell. You are basically dismissed and so as a very young child. I remember the first time I heard the word gay in the way that it was described was pre horrific and I remember thinking to myself that relates to me somehow. Not what they're explaining but the gay thing like I know that that somehow relates to me and based on what they're saying their their reaction so visceral that. I have to rearrange that somehow and that process started when I was six years old. Wow so again you think about you. Don't realize it six or eight or ten that you're what you're actually trying to do is run from trauma living inside your body. You're trying so hard to be found but I can safely say that with in the context of Evangelical Christianity. I was never seen. There was nothing about me that was a validated or saying I was very tenderhearted kid who very compassionate towards the underdog and That's just not what I was taught being. A man of God is so. Yeah got a got a tough nut. Dummies sensitive and again. You cannot reach. Those levels does volumes about your worst. Yeah let's talk about that. That sense of like Evangelical Masculinity in trying to fit in with other guys in that space. 'cause YEAH. I was a sensitive kid to surprise surprise and that was something that I felt sort of. I sort of bristled against and I think that mid Western men of you know they. They're supposed to be at least was modeled or what I saw my churches and things like that they were supposed to be stoic and reserved and you know just all these different markers that I didn't necessarily I wasn't against them but it was just like I wasn't interested so like what was that. I mean you you had this aspect of Al also wrestling with your sexuality in relating to that in a negative way at that point in your life but even just amongst other men. What was that like for you I I WANNA ask you when you're talking about your experience and you had no interest. Were you intimidated by what it meant or did you? Were you able to put it in a category say? Yeah that's just not for me and I'm okay you know that's a good question There were certain things certain things that I wasn't able to do because at so the main one is that once I got to sixth grade. I couldn't play football Because I have epilepsy and my my doctors just said no way like you you can. I play contact sport. Basically that sort of shut off that part of Like a formative part of middle school and High School for me and then actually that was when I got became really nerdy and Got into like youth group sheds and and Star Wars. You know So for me it was like I wasn't necessarily Drawn to those things and I felt a little bit lacking for that that would nag but it took a while until I could find people that I felt. You know. We're interested in the same things. 'cause you know all that finding your end group or whatever it's crucial during those periods just like it's important later on in life so yeah so sure within who you were and self. Esteem is a lifelong problem for me. So it wasn't. I didn't necessarily think I was secure. I was just very in my head. You know my my self worth. I still felt a little you know lacking because I was like you know Pudgy and not athletic and I. I felt like that was a big problem that I wasn't those things so for me. That was a huge insecure. And who who was an promise to answer your question who he guy that represented all of it of just like that guy. He's got the God think. Now he's got the looks. He's got the athletic abilities. Oh you mean like a peer the that the whole Church doted on and was like this. This is the one there is yeah. I've got a kid in mind is first name was Jeff. He was the ship for sure and on top of that was like also artistic like he just had all every every box with Chet at least at that at that point in life for sure so there was a guy and he went to the same church me and all those sorts of things. I just think that we all have some of those people. And those people are celebrated based on their performance quite a bit and leaves. The rest of us have clamoring at being able to perform like that person and betray ourselves in order to get the information that we so desperately want. That says are okay. We are celebrating too right. Yeah my my interaction. I will say that I was so Stifled strutted by knowing that. There's this thing inside of me and I say knowing. I was so deep. Denial to ever say this means that. I'm gay there wasn't enough oxygen in my world to come to that conclusion in so I- observed and I desperately wanted to be seen in that light of this is the epitome of masculinity and. I went down there with work humor success. But really like the Hitomi of evangelical the epitome of why Wham at eighteen like just the true evangelical and that was a way to kind of my way and overcompensate for this internal dialogue. That's going on. That's scaring me to no end. And I don't have resources to know how to process or appreciate or firm in so I of compensate by being like the Truth Evangelical. Yeah as Trevon Joel. Why am right at eighteen? Also right around the time you started. Therapy is this. What sort of begins that sort of process of starting to reckon with this very intense childhood and adolescence is just going by the time line you have wa eighteen. Did you start therapy around the same time as well right right when I got done? Those incidents on the mission field where one of the spiritual leaders one of the the group leaders at. Ym gave me some very unfortunate advice. I had lived in a kind of a safe structured environment before so for the first time in my life at eighteen. I'm going to bed at the same time every night. I'm waking up at the same time every morning and I took that time to settle for the first time in two months in I heard I had what I call my first break down and it was because stability in that structure gave me room to let stuff come to the surface and My roommate in the middle of the night went and got our door. Dad's at this guy is really upsetting to become get him in so he took me down to where we do our classes and that was the first time I shared what happened to me at twelve and thirteen by this this pedophile and before I let me preface the guy that gave me the advice that he did was so uneducated. I just had never had like harmful feelings towards him. What he said was so ignorant did so much damage but he believed that he was not trying to harm. He was bad uneducated but alum. This story is the first time it ever shared someone about being abused and tell them the story and his response to that. I needed to repent for being involved in homosexuality yet. If you think about this time line of this little boy who doesn't have security in anything other than performance. I believed him wholeheartedly with every fiber my being his message matched the shame that I felt and so I bought it. There was nothing in me that Had reflects thought what the. Hell is this guy saying. I'm a full throttle. Thought he's absolutely right. What's so disgusting about that? Is anyone who has ever had any type of sexual assault or sexual harm done to them? The shame instant our bodies are not meant to know how to process sexual assault in because it's intimate and because it's such a sacred thing to ever experienced. It encounter any type with another humid because we either respond to or it happens. It's not registered in our body because we don't know what to do with it. The most common thing is to turn that into shame and say clearly. I did this. We know how to work with shame. We don't know how to work with trauma so a years old. What led me to therapy was thinking. Oh my God I'm so sorry got an you know the other thing. That's so furing is what happened to me at twelve and thirteen has nothing to do with sexuality so when people make comments and savings. Do you think that that is why you struggle with Your sexuality and I'm like well no I struggle with my sexuality because what I was top of the Evangelical Church what he did to me. That wasn't sex not sexuality right. That's it you're right. That's a very dangerous. Live at evangelical spaces tell is that abuse leads to some change in sexual identity or orientation spoken quite a bit about that because number one so many other people reach out to me and say no one has ever said this before and I'm like isn't that tragic the number ever said to you. That is absurd. Being sexually abused doesn't have anything to do with sexual orientation what him that man. Being homosexual has nothing to do with sexuality him being a pedophile is about control. That has nothing to do sexual orientation so a lot of those things are very blurred. The the lack of education is is tragic That conversation have led me to Christian counseling. My parents put me in conversion therapy right away. I had my whole experience at love in action. That caused an unbelievable amount of trauma. Dad I feel like I've healed from the best way that I know. How but conversion therapy my God it. Just it does something to you. That is is so confusing to know what reality is to know what what God is. And what that means and it's It's a pain and it is a darkness that for me has equalled sexual abuse for sure they're in the same category together because the assault is against something so vulnerable so sacred. I do these interviews all the time when they WANNA talk about complex trauma. It's when you have a traumatic experience on top of a traumatic experience on top of a traumatic experience. I was in survival mode all of those years. So there wasn't even room to be saved. Or have someone come alongside me and say Holy Shit it. We've got to get your nervous system to start rattling stop rattling so you can have a normal life. There wasn't there wasn't room for any of that when I look at all of that. The one thing in my way was. Christianity like literally walled. Me In to have no access to medicine at professional therapist with credentials and licensed books that had to do with trauma. I mean there were so many resources that could have been beneficial but because I want the the Christian route a lost so so many years in. That's why I want other people to know. Please trust your instinct police. Trust your instinct and know that none of us are meant to suffer the way that we've suffered under the hands of uneducated evangelicals Is What we're here for right. Yeah and that's such a good point that so often people have these. These nagging doubts. You're taught to not listen to your doubts. But you know you. You feel this sense of pain. You feel this sense of or anger or whatever. Whatever signal you're sending to yourself you're right and like those are good signals to listen to and follow through on So what was the crack in that wall that Christianity Christianity had put up around your recovery? What got you on a path that lets you break through that wall and start to really work on addressing the trauma that you had undergone. It's a great question so a spent eighteen to thirty one and some form of Christian therapy conversion therapy Therapists that I saw while I lived in Nashville was cut the kind of known as the Liberal Christian. Had I mean he he was he was in demand and several of my friends? Had Gone to heaven I went to him when I was twenty three twenty four years old and just kind of laid my story on the line at our very first session and just said this is what I've experienced. This is where I'm at now. Can you help me and I was just desperate. And he said Yeah and I believe that in his mind he was doing me a favor by inviting me to his home for dinner and inviting me to like a men's group that he was in and just a lot of really inappropriate things Yeah and it was two hundred dollars an hour which to this day esther but I look back at that and he certainly did a lot of damage around my view of sexuality but when I was a thirty one years old I had my first encounter with fool on reality where had flashbacks of additional abuse. That had happened when I was kid. And there were all of these details in stories that came back to me at always through all of those years. I had this thing that I would often say to close friends into my therapist. There's a piece of my story that I'm missing and I don't know what it is and my therapist would say your brain and your heart will work together. Reveal it at the right time when they know that it's safe and that time was December of two thousand nine and I had all these memories. Come back in. I had a lot of anxiety because for the first time all of these blanks were filled in or thought. No wonder wrestled sex addiction like. Oh my God there was this. There was this there. Was this all of these. All of these dynamics all these different things that I'd encountered it was the first time in my life I considered. Maybe this wasn't my fault. Maybe the way that you feel is because of stuff that was done to you and not because you're just a human trash can in a whiz waiting for Christmas waiting for a friend to come back in town from his family trip. I went to his house that night and I just shared a lot of the details with him of a lot of memories and just putting all of these pieces of different stories together. Lot that I've already told you about tonight and he asked me for specifics which I thought was really interesting. I think that he wanted to understand the gravity of when I say that there was this and this and this he wanted understand and so I told him several of the stories that have remembered and the look on his face was horror and I kept saying to him. But I'm not mad. I'm just glad understand my story. I'm not mad. I'm glad I understand my story and Blake. My my heart rate was so high in my face was flushed and I kept saying that over and over and a left that night when I got home that night my body unraveled and I stopped sleeping. I just built this beautiful home in downtown Franklin. I went to my partners at a firm that was part owner of I was the vice president. There resigned I close the blinds to my home stopped responding to phone calls and emails gained fifty pounds and just disappeared from life. Because I did not have the tools to process the amount of trauma that had happened in. I was obsessed with time a wanted. Time to sit steel so that I could catch my breath because all of a sudden there's all of this new information that is basically saying you know. Hey Nate heads up? None of this was your fall and when you when you recognize the extent that other people went to parents included to cause harm to maintain control. It was too much. It was just too much so dark to recognize their involvement and so much of my abuse. I have this saying I hate cliches so much. I hate them so much and when people say everything happens for a reason you know my response is everything does not happen for a reason. Everything happens because people make decisions every day. Some of those decisions include causing a Shitload of harm to other people. There's no reason behind it. It is what it is and the other one is God whenever giving more than you can handle. Well what does that say about me because at a nervous breakdown so clearly? I couldn't handle it you know. And it's just so ignorant that people continue to to say these things that are so dismissive beyond all of the the conversion therapy bullshit at all of the inappropriate therapy. The thing that makes me the most angry about this therapist was from December two thousand nine until October of the next year he let me stay in that condition while encouraging more prayer or Bible Verses More Books not once did he say okay. You're sleeping two hours a night. You wake up screaming. You're afraid to sleep in your own bed because that that bedroom feels too large to you sleep in your guest room because you feel safer in there You have gained fifty pounds. You've stopped working. I mean anybody. With half an ounce of awareness would say holy Shit guys unraveling. I've got to get him help Nothing for ten months. Nothing everything every tool every Wednesday. One o'clock all was related to being stronger Christian so in October of that year at found a outpatient treatment center for didn't even know what. Ptsd was in my head. Ptsd was someone who's gone to the war and they fought and now if they hear loud noises they react like that. That was the extent of what I understood and I got to this treatment center and the lady by Therapists gave me her card. And I've never seen so many credentials and licenses in my life like it was her name Comma Elementary Com. Lcs W On on it was like his great. My time. There gave me my life back. It was my introduction to reality for the first time it was so powerful to work through so much of the trauma that was on the surface at the time that I was really wrestling with but when I left they were very clear and said unique Back for this. You need to come back for this. You need to come back for this honestly Blake. I got back to my home and I looked around and I just thought I hate this life that I built. I've got to get out of here. I've not as far away from. Here's I can and doesn't move to San Diego and then started in two thousand ten started. Em Dr Therapy and explain what that is Phil Listeners. Because I I've I've also heard mentioned. I do know that is very helpful for people but I don't have a greats Frame of reference for it and what that therapy entails. I love explaining this to people because I'm elated and I get to explain it from Experienced not the technical. I mean it's part technical but I love being explained to people like what it actually does to your brain so when something traumatic happens you think about a seven year old. No seven-year-old on the planet is born with optioning skills to know how to respond to a situation in. Listen trauma is anything that happens to a person that they experienced as traumatic data. So you imagine the seven year old who has experienced no tools? So what you do what we do. Is We take that experience. We push it on one side of our brain so that it doesn't have movement because our movement goes left right right left brave vibrate so he stood on one side of our brain and we push it away. Will we think we've gone? Is We've eliminated that memory and we were building alive and saying I never ever want to experience that again will we don't realize is that we are living with it recreating it day. In and day out through our relationships to our eating habits through our addictions like it is rooted in our brain. And it's helping us make all of the the bad decisions. Md R. is Eye Movement. The sensitive desensitization reprocessing. There are several different Forms that they use mine has always been the dual fingers where they hold two fingers up in front of your eyes and move them back and forth. You talk quite a bit before doing him. Dr Lay the foundation of say that we're saying what was it like for eight-year-old eight to hear the yelling before when came into his room to abuse him like we're we're talking about that laying the foundation and then when you do the MDR you've the fingers moving in front of your eyes you you're sitting steel and what that does is it tax into that memory. So we're stuck all of that time you poke a hole in it and then you pull a little bit of it in a little bit more a little bit more and all of a sudden it's got left brain right brain left brain right brain in so say. I'm doing that at thirty four years old. Thirty four are able to provide perspective understanding healing to that young boy that he wasn't able to get himself because he just wasn't available. I've done over three hundred hours of the FDR it saved my life. I'm a huge advocate. It is not for everyone there are sir. I know people who have said when I tried it. It was so triggering. I also think it's really important that if you're doing mdr you have got to have a strong strong safe security with your therapist. That's imperative because that personally knew back to the trauma. I don't want to scare people away. I just want to put that disclaimer out there. That if you don't have a strong connection with your therapist Incredibly safe please. Don't try to be are pleased. All does that make. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. That's that's a very very interesting process and and Wayne which to use those psychosomatic bodily things in order to address memories. And that's that's fascinating and I'm glad it's worked well for you. I WanNa talk a little bit about how you decided to take all these different experiences. You had an and healing And pursuing all these elements of therapy after you. You broke through this wall of Evangelical Christianity and Shitty Christian counselor and found good treatment and started to make progress. What eventually led you to want to start sharing these stories and developing this public aspect of your recovery in sharing that recovery. Tell me what led you to that point and y y you are passionate about talking about your recovery from China so always been a hard worker Because we grew up poor we defend ourselves a lot of ways and enjoy work. But I've always used success as a buffer in an excuse of a shield so that when people said why are you married? I'm too busy. The thought of someone believing that I was gay arresting Rowdy terrified me. Closest friends all knew we talked very openly 'em best we could for years about that but They're just still a deep longing for me. I was hardwired so early to believe that. There's this thing that God's GonNa do what he flips a switch and all of a sudden I am heterosexual and so even after all of the MD art. There'd be I still didn't come out and in two thousand sixteen ahead murmell but that was so powerful in so sacred by myself on a Friday night and I was hurting and I just felt like okay. I have done this much worker myself. I don't understand how after at this point. Eighteen years of intensive therapy knows socialized through my twenties and thirties. No amazing vacations. No understand my hobbies just like gutting myself working towards that switch being flipped and I just got to a place where by myself on a Friday evening July of two thousand sixteen. I just thought I just don't think I can do this anymore. And why have explored at this point like what would happen if you explored coming out. What would that be like? And it was such a powerful moment to sit because my coming out of so different to me. I think everybody's coming out is so unique. Might had very little do with me being gay like I was very comfortable with that part. Very comfortable very unapologetic. It was recognizing if you do this. You're going to lose a lot of relationships in you're going to have to grieve for fighting the wrong battle for so long and I recognize that. That's what kept me closeted so started the coming out process that July. The negative experiences have no impact on me. Nothing traumatic sure. Enough people dropped me. There were a lot of anger Christians of you know. I don't agree. There were people just like I don't feel any different people that I saw on a on a weekly basis. I don't do any differently Understand in never heard from again but all of those relationships were were replaced with people that are my people where the relationships just don't take the kind of work so there was nothing really dramatic with that the positive part was other level. Positive the amount some that I got that very first person came out to less to my closest friend who to this day is still my closest friend. And he said. I don't know another humid. Who has worked as hard as you have to heal and I am all for you exploring this and doing whatever it takes to capture life that you enjoy and that meant the world to me in so once you start coming out all of sudden it thirty six. I turned thirty seven. The next mocked all of a sudden. It's like sorry I turned thirty. I was thirty eight hundred thirty nine the next month. All of the sudden you're known for the first time you're actually being honest about who you are for the first time in your life and of course in the beginning in my head I thought Oh God is probably furious about this Understanding something at all of this other kind of psychobabble that went under my head but the positive the experience was so powerful that you're later when I turned forty. My career was at a really unique position where the success was off the charts. Too Stupid Success and Ito had I stayed for three or four more years. I could have retired So hard to get to that point but I was barely hanging on and I kept thinking about this quote that mentors it says You can't postpone life for life because if you do what you get there. Your heart can't hold that dream. All I could think was like if you do this. You GotTa do it now so I sold my home. I sold everything that I own. I bought a bunch of plane tickets and I left the country for a sabbatical to just go explore. The world had not done a lot of traveling and started a blog and podcast. While I did that that was a year and a half ago and you can't freely travel to countries like Morocco and meet Muslim families and have dinner with them in their homes. It's still be convinced that you're right about being an image Jellicoe Christian and if you can you're not seeing these people you're not there. You're just not here. I didn't expect a I don't know the blog and podcast is shared with people who think shared it and it took often has been such a gift feel like I've found my people in all I think about is what it was like those ten months sitting inside that home. That was just such a dark place in my life in thinking to myself if I survive this if I do get through this. I'm going to help other people get through this too. I had no idea how many of those people were had no idea how many wounded people walking around with these a deep painful traumas from the Evangelical Christian Movement the Catholic Church. I mean. Just it's unbelievable. Yeah that's where I've been really specific from day. One and I've chosen to communicate very unapologetic and I don't engage the bullshit either I just don't have any desire to explain. Ram coming from. I share my message in a way that I think is going to help the people who need to hear it and the rest who feel imposed or offended. That's not my story in regardless of their offense that has nothing to do with the people that have been hurt in need to hear a message that helps them ill. Yeah and one of the places that you've you've found a lot of community and have a lot of exposure is over on instagram and this is sort of a just something that that I think is very interesting because I I am not a very good user of that platform like I started using it primarily share pictures of my kid and so my profile both basically been private but I'd share all sorts of random thoughts over on twitter but it seems like they're over on instagram. There is a lot of very interesting accounts including yours that really address elements in regards to trauma counseling and therapy and sharing different different things within say a post and then sharing a bit about your story and I'm curious just in the way that people again you know you said you found your people you that and you discovered through sharing your story that there are a lot of other people who have similar experiences. I'm just very curious personally about the way in which that sort of information gets discovered and the way it finds audiences sort of my. This show found an audience unexpectedly again me too. I I was. I started this show. Just with the intent of talking to my friends from college that I knew all sort of became more liberal and less evangelical in understanding. Why the hell that happened. And then it found this this broader interest so within your experience over on a different platform like I. I did a lot of this on twitter. For example how have you seen that community? Arise around a platform like instagram With you know a lot of people have complicated relationships with because of you know whether it feeds into their body image issues things like that and then you see this really cool stuff happening like people talking about how to approach trauma or doing these different kinds of post that acknowledge the types of the parts of life that are really worth fighting for and really worth worth fighting through. But aren't necessarily you know picture perfect so I love to hear about how that part of sharing your story has developed and no. That's a great question so when this all started a year and a half ago I had to hire someone to help me with social media because I it just is not my thing. I had deleted my facebook on for years because it just felt authentic in a strain. I didn't enjoy it. Saw hired this. This Gal who has become such an amazing friend and I adore her so hired her and we sat down. And she's like okay. What's your first question is okay. What is instagram she said? Are you serious like I know that my assistant has an account for me for real estate? I don't know what my name is on there. I don't know how stuff gets on there so we had to go through this long process and so for me. It was just walked away from this career and might hope is to build a platform. I know that I'm going to eventually become a life coach. I know I've led groups for years. I've done coaching Mentoring for years. I knew that that's where I wanted to go but I also felt like really need to build a platform in order to make this whole thing work so during my travel when I was writing and doing the podcast numerous Graham lasted about six months and I got kind of burned out. I felt really exhausted. Moved to stop. Traveling moved to San Diego it through the course of the last eight nine months. I've gone through a layer of healing that I didn't know was possible where I didn't know that I could ever celebrate. I look in the mirror and I am so grateful for the man that I see what he fought for what he fought against and the message that I shared in the beginning is so different for the message that I share. Now something happened a few months ago robbers just like fuck it. I'm not tailoring this to anybody. I'm going to say the stuff that I say to myself to say stuff that I say to my addict I'm GonNa say the stuff that I say to my inner child. I'm GONNA TALK ABOUT TRAUMA. GonNa talk about Sex Abuse. I'm GonNa talk about Being extent Jellicoe all of these things. I wanted to talk about these things in an authentic way. I get bogged down like everybody with humming likes that get and Holy Shit. This didn't take off and I've learned over time to put the information out there. Just trust that. There's another nate from two thousand nine somewhere getting this information that I think that a lot of big growth has come from you know just people who have larger platforms finding my word sharing my work and down that has the world to me to be validated to have a listen. I'll tell you a huge surprise not wanted it ever cross my mind that the largest percentage of my followers a har- therapist trauma therapists psychologists psychiatrists social workers and never crossed my mind and these are people who want to help people heal. You can imagine what my view is of the whole therapist industry as a whole That has been redeeming and they reach out to me and I've had many therapists rejoin say. Can I consult with you on this or that manages? It means the world to me that they respect boys and know that I had zero training as a therapist zero certification. But they see someone who's worked so hard and wants to help other people wants to educate in their validation has meant so much but then that also makes me take it so serious were every Damn Post. I look at an I say to myself. Is there something catty on here? Is there drama in here? Is there anything in here? That's just to get a rise out of someone is this is authentic as it needs to be. Will it reach the lendings to reach? And I think about that before every post and there's not a day that goes by that I don't hear from someone that says you just describe something that have not been able to describe and that's how this whole thing has built its own is sacred man. It really has been so beautiful. The stories that I hear from people are so heartbreaking and painful but they're all trying and they're searching something else that I've learned is the unbelievable amount of privilege that I've had to get the help that I've had with. Same percent of my followers have no access to the kind of therapy. Yeah either financially or geographically like it's just not there so my long term goal is to continue to build my coaching practice. Where eventually my job is just coaching. Coach's ability nonprofit that gets mental trauma therapy mental health awareness and there before people who are in a position that they cannot get it on their own. So that's rest a long term goal to cover covered all but that's been a huge. I over for me right. Yeah Yeah Privilege. Access is definitely something that to. Why Men's speaking obviously like oftentimes were blind to the privilege that we have in lots of different ways and privileges as a broad word and speaks to lots of different things. But it is. You're right like a lot of there. There's more need than there is access to the care that people require. Yeah absolutely and I want to loop back to the sort of spiritual side of things One of the things that I that I often ask Near the end of interview is just more abroad question of of. Where are you now when it comes to elements of either spirituality or Christianity and given all the experiences that you've had personally with with healing and sort of having this understanding that a lot of evangelicals Christianity stood in the way of your How do you relate to that part of life now and I'm not trying to lead you and saying that I like to say as wholeness holiness? I care more that people are whole no matter where that leads them. I still think it's an interesting question. And it's a good one to ask him and here where you've landed just because again speaking as you said to someone who's insane possession. You were ten or eleven years ago. So how do you approach that part of life or what is and what have you? What is your relationship to that where you are now? You might not like my answer. You'd be surprised I don't know and I don't care that's that's totally valid. That's absolutely I had a conversation recently. Where I I get a lot of hate from evangelical 's the just out of the blue Where they feel. They don't have the ability to look in say Holy Shit. All of these people have been wounded by religion that I participate in. That makes me curious instead. It's like you guys are all worthless and your disgusting in. Here's the Bible verses to prove and it's like okay. Well that's that's really powerful. I want to be like you know. She's he fought all the time. What do you believe now and In what I always say is that the reason I won't answer. That question is because Christians especially need to know that there's still something in me that identifies with what they identify with. Or they can't trust when I say and I wanted to go back to the days where politics and religion are kind of off the table and people have their own sense of privacy and awareness based on their life experience because the reality is like everybody believes what they believe based on what they've been exposed to so all I can say is I've exposed to a lot and I'm saw so grateful and I believe that there's so much good in this world that we haven't tapped into beyond that I just don't WanNa tell people believe like listen. Bandera certain days where I'm not sure but I but when I am sure of is that I don't know and I don't care. Yeah that is totally valid answer and I would absolutely affirmed that for me personally. I just had a similar thought recently. That a statement of non belief feels almost as binding as a statement of belief to me like at this point. Like how much time do you have? I'll tell you what I think about different theologies but not knowing not carrying is absolutely valid and I think it's especially valid for people that come from this walk of life this this religious background because you were forced to care like other you you were highly motivated care just innately or you're forced to care externally shit show either way but it's totally valid to to take a breather and engage that part of life. When I I want to be super super clear about this piece. I believe Evangelical Christianity is dangerous. I believe it's bullshit. I believe that it is the utter waste of time. You can blast that like the highest volume on very very clear and these. These are the points that I have heard that at six years old. I was taught because I had a high grade fever. We were not. We did not have insurance so I was listening. I was led to Christ because I was taught at that point. There was a heaven or hell because I was asking my mother. What happens if I die tonight and national learn about heaven or hell no six year old? I don't care if we want a playground. And they were giving me cotton candy thousands of dollars no six-year-old not ten-year-old. No twenty year old. She ever hear about a concept of hell when our brains are not developed. We can't fully process what that means from a cognitive level but then taught making this decision or he carrier consequences. That is rank gusting. Yeah that's appalling and yet yet I believed I believed it for so long but I looked at as one of the most abusive things and I think this speaks volumes. There was a report that just came out in two thousand eighteen that they did I can't remember the name of the company on posted about a couple of days ago. They did a survey for the top one hundred largest most influential evangelical churches in the country. To find out of those one hundred. How many are affirming number was zero? Was A CHURCH CLARITY CHURCH CLARITY? Yeah I'm just to the point now where it says guys the Lgbtq community in women who have had abortions have taken your wrath. Been Your scapegoats for so damn law while you sit back and you ignore all the bullshit right in front of your face that we're all addressing an right so I wanna be soup. Recruited about how shaded no no I mean this is. This is the show for people that have left evangelicalism. So you're good to go there. You're not you're not gonNA find an evangelical apologists there at all. Yeah yeah is far as the rest. It's there's just so much beauty in life that I'm exploring experiencing and I love it right and that's a great answer. That's a great answer. So thank you so much for sharing all that you have this evening. Where can people find your work? Where where can they find you online or elsewhere okay? So everything is the other side of say. Does the blog podcast and best instagram? Than My coaching. Practice is called story connect coaching and I have I can do individual coaching. I've got a six month program on there and just introduced groups their private groups with up to ten people each everything is done online and it's me facilitating healthy conversations. The three topics doing right now is Religious Trauma LGBTQ support. Meaning someone who has closeted just recently out or someone who's an ally and end the another piece. Another group that undoing and very excited about is survivors of male sexual abuse. So those are the three that that are offered right now and it's just it's powerful manages. Have people come together and then everyone's connected and I just facilitate conversations So Yeah any coaching that someone would be interested in that. Confinement through story CANNOT COACHING DOT com. Everything is the side of saved. Great thank you so much for for joining me. Thank you enjoyed it.

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BFM  Baptism and Lords Supper

Christian Podcast Community

55:50 min | 1 year ago

BFM Baptism and Lords Supper

"Baptism and lord's supper are these important. What are the core biblical truth surrounding to power these two ordinances within the church giving us a picture of the gospel of christ. These are the questions that james and daniel will answer today's episode so of the everyday ministry podcast where everyday ministers get together to discuss every day ministry thousand stone to another episode of everyday ministry podcast okay. This is james wide. I'm sitting here with dependable brown daniel. How is everything going in lire. Alabama things are good. Things are very very good super-busy as kind of a redundant statement these days but things are going great over here. We <hes> have kicked off the fall. I just got back from vacation. If <hes> if you are listening to our ministers minute episodes go back and listen to the one vacations and you'll see why i think that's important the the second episode of gave a plug back to that annan so you're welcome but <hes> had a great time on vacation with my family spent some good quality time there and it was very refreshing now that we're back in ca- lira back in the saddle we are fully geared up and full-throttle title and the fall season. I guess if you want to call it that even though it's still a hundred and fifty degrees outside here in alabama but man just doing the ministry thing one day at a time bro one day at a time now there's also emma get the joy of seeing many of the pitch vacation mainly from your wife. Give you took too many pictures on your own. I mean i did but i just don't post them a whole lot on fake news so much that it's not necessary for both of us too because so you that husbands last father that just shares the post of the wife. I don't even share them. You you just let it be what it is what it is man well. I'm might her acela like. Maybe maybe maybe if it's on instagram we don't because you don't have instagram haven't graham so yeah most of them <hes> into i knew i knew ewing in the post anything on there so i was like well. I'll keep with him <hes> from alice so ego well. I'll be going on vacation. <hes> in september. My wife has a work retreat as she has to go on on so for her not so much vacation me in lahti gets beggar loan to justin so me and he's gonna live it up on the beach while sarah works everyday and and so me and her whether enjoy our time <hes> much while we're down there but yes for me everything has changed <hes> essentially in the last few episodes meet anyone's talking about a little bit beforehand because i thought ahead texan updated him on <hes> must situation. Apparently i had not it's just been a interesting past few weeks for me in for my wife and i this past sunday which would be august the twenty twenty-fifth so had the opportunity unfortunately to a congregation do about my resignation and so i will be at lighthouse through more weeks when my last sunday will be the eighth and last wednesday will be around the eleventh or so whatever however that falls and i am taking the youth pastor position <hes> in a city nearby in so i get to step back into the ministry or and transition into that from being a senior pastor of church plant for the last five years in so i have a great deal of adjustment and relearning guest per se <hes> that's gonna come come up in the next few months of my life but i think is can be good feel confident that this is what god would have for my wife and i end this season of our lives and looking forward to join the next church unfortunately though we are looking so much to leaving or current family we love them dearly in have been with him for five years now and they essentially have become our family here in vernon alabama for the last i five years <hes> really spent more time with them than we have our actual family and so we will miss them dearly but we were still live in the same house austin in the same city and all of that so we will still get to see them regularly just not as their pastor and on sunday in wednesday's and so that is what's going on in the life of the whites. Obviously you just hear daniel and i my daniela my horse tonight and or morning whenever you may be listening to this and unfortunately none of the other host could jump on this episode with us but i am excited though daniel to have you back on another episode of just a normal podcast. You've you've had a long. It's been it's been since before. Jack was born and he just turned six months old so it's been half a year since i've been on a regular podcast episode. If i remember correctly it was around november december last tom whole episode you might have been one in january because of latvian born february we kinda didn't record a lot new new episode in the beginning of the year this year so yeah well allie got home from work today and and i said something to her about recording according and she said go for it so i was like hook you so here we are <hes> getting the getting to jump in and record with you man so i'm excited to get to be a part of it. I hate to the other guys aren't part of his oh man. I really wish i could be. I understand you know that's is kind of the nature of everyday ministry right you drag. That's why you need us on this show because we need at least two do of each week so i know lie jae-in christopher busy <hes> with ministry and family things royce selling us that the august was getting getting ready to do a debut album. I guess this weekend so <hes> that sounded fun nonetheless since though but on this week's sodas you may have already noticed we're going to be looking at the seventh article bath on his of men lord's supper and before we jump into that conversation we do wanna take the opportunity to listen to a commercial for one other podcasts as a part of the cushion podcast community. Are you just watching. Do you enjoy watching movies. Special effects the interesting characters the great stories. There's a lot to enjoy that comes out of hollywood but sometimes it's best to approach secular media with a healthy dose of critical thinking join me eat franklin and tim martin as we discuss our favorite movies and unshared critical thinking for the entertain christian so visit are you just watching dot com subscribe and don't just watch striving fraternity as a christ centered ministry focused on equipping people for eternity and they provide speakers and seminars that come to your church with expertise in theology per renewed ix world religions creation science evangelism presupposition of apologetic church history and expertise and sexual abuse in the church for details on their seminars and to request a speaker for your church goto striving for eternity dot org striving to make today and turn date for the glory of god. Welcome back back in. We just want to encourage you to go over to christian podcast immunity dot com. We're just one of i think it's up to about fourteen or fifteen different podcasts as part of the community now and there's we're looking at adding food the community in the next few weeks and months and i'm really excited about some of them some over some of them were some that i've been listening to you for a few months. Now that are just fantastic encourage you to go check them out but as we get into the conversation is we said we're going to be looking at the baptist faith and message article seven baptism and lord's supper. If you have not read that article i only encourage you to take the opportunity. Maybe hostas or <hes> pull it up on your phone. Just go to google typing b._f._m. Two thousand poll up s._b._c. website really easy for you. Article seven read through it and and maybe you're not southern baptists and you're not familiar with baptist faith and message news is essentially just what we believe is southern baptist not much. You have to do to be a part of southern badging nomination relation. You'd have to give to the program and then co two this baptist faith message and and so as we've been walking through this <hes> we've just really enjoyed understanding adding different aspects would southern baptists believe and just kind of as we've said many many times. It's really an umbrella statement. <hes> most orthodox orthodox believers are going to believe in everything that baptist faith message says there were few descriptions these people that are more in a pentecostal background and things that such but overall everyone kinda hold onto some of these things and as we look at this specific article tonight really see these two ideas the baptism resume lord's supper and when you look at the article itself it breaks it up into two separate paragraphs so dan you if you would just read the whole article force her so article seven on baptism says this christian baptism is the immersion of believer in water in the name of father the son john and the holy spirit it is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified bear and risen xavier the believer's death to sin the barrel of the all live and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in christ jesus. It is a testimony to his faith. In the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the lord's supper. We look at this really see this idea. It just begins by saying christian. Baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. Now this is one of the distinctive southern baptists or bad passenger right <hes> because we see these two concepts of immersion and also say this idea of of a believer. Why do you think that these things are kind of what separates southern baptists are baptists and journal from other denominations. Maybe like you know presbyterian uh-huh methodist for even you through different other denominations <hes> well that's certainly a touchy subject among different different denominations of the christian faith but we as southern baptists do not believe or practice infant baptism which is this this is clarifying that we do not do it doesn't say infant baptism but this is clarifying that it is the immersion of a believer in other words a person who has personally chosen to follow christ jesus as their lord and savior. They have not been taken by their parents to the pastor astor to say. We want to baptize child. They have not been taking through a class such as a confirmation which the methodist church does is they have not been done. They had not ethan of that nature. It is simply this person coming to faith in christ jesus and as a result of the faith that they now have in christ christ jesus they follow that moment of salvation with believer's baptism another aspect of those is idea of emerging you you know many other denominations have other modes of baptism rat you know sprinkling or you know <hes> i guess kind of brushing rushing on of the water. I'm not sure how you word that is so there's different modes out there baptism themselves and baptists if you can kind of catch with the name itself it's really this idea. Idea of immersion is baptizing by really submerging the whole self into water earns. You can call it dunking dunking taking the individual into water and we'll really look at one of the reasons why we hold that view so strongly obviously we would say that it's really because this is an example of baptism that christ had for us with the john the baptist baptizing him in to the water itself rather than a a sprinkling on or anything of that such a note that this idea of a believer is really significant more look at the last part of this paragraph gra was says being a church or it's it is a real record sit of a privilege of church membership and lord's supper. This is why in the baptist denomination unlike presbyterian these others where we as individuals we as churches would say that if when he been baptized that they are church member so they can take communion then where will we would even see some respite during world is they won't allow children all different take of communion until they have actually been converted though they have already baptized in those just kind of one of the significance of why this the case for us in this southern baptist world but i do want to look at this idea and i think this kind of softball so i wanna throw you daniel not that need a softball but just injure no no. I've been watching baseball tonight so i guess i've just been thinking about it right. <hes> the name of the father the son and the holy spirit why is significant that we baptize under this mantra ultra well <hes> if you look back at the great commission jesus says <unk> right now as <hes> go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit matthew twenty eight eighteen nineteen twenty <hes> and so we are literally literally following through in a very literal form of obedience by when we baptize we are telling telling that believer and we are teaching our congregation as we bad ties that believe it before them. I baptize you. My my exact words are baptize you my brother brother or my sister in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit <hes> basically clarifying that number one father son holy spirit of three distinct persons ends but that father son holy spirit also are all got and therefore we're baptizing that believer in all three persons of the trinity signifying that you are now in relationship identifying with all three persons of the trinity <hes> in the way that they operate and and function within your life and within this universe yeah. I agree completely. I think the maybe another significance of it too though <hes> and i think the softballs trying to throw to you was that you just told us to matthew twenty eight eighteen through twenty baptist the name of the father son and spirit but the other aspect of two though is the father the son and the spirit being pert of has a role in salvation and so what would declaring in baptizing sizing in these three three persons of god. It's essentially that they were three. They worked salvation in that individual so denominations were really just baptized in the name the holy spirit or baptism name of christ and i do think it's an important interesting that we put it on all three rather than just want specific one because you get into into touchy thing of this second baptism of the holy spirit and things of that nature yeah and i would say to that you know so often the regarding or depending on what denomination you're listening to or what person had what background this person comes from that might be explaining the trinity. It's easy for us is to like you just said get jumbled and confused in this idea of of trinitaria belief. What is it how does it apply. How does it play into my life and it's so much better just to look back at what jesus says and when jesus is saying here in matthew twenty eight battles name father son holy spirit he is making the the three persons equal to one another and therefore we do not have the right to classify who comes into play in what way because in all reality as much study as former scholars and current scholars have done on the trinity with much scholarly work that we have access to regarding the trinity man. We're not scratching the surface on who the trinity really is besides what christ has revealed to lesson what his word reveals to us and so for him to say baptize in the name of the father son holy spirit is just him saying aubrey. All three persons are equally valid are equally god in are equally important in your life and all three persons are the one true true god and i think that that takes away a lot of debate <hes> when he when he makes that so clear and it's just it's planned black and white right there or red and white depending on what what type of bob you're looking at but <hes> it's that's that's all it matters so <hes> moving forward in this statement the next stints there there is a it is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified buried and risen savior so we'll stop there for just a minute and just kind of talk about that for just a minute first off man that word obedience. It's an act of obedience. This is clarifying thing for us. Jane's i believe first off. We know we we believe this in our own lives and we teach this to our people that baptism tatum is not anything special. It's not magical <hes> it doesn't it doesn't make life all of a sudden better when you come out from under that water nothing in our world really changes but as an it is an act of obedience symbolizing something first off. We're being obedient to the example. That christ gives us us. It's an act of obedience. <hes> in in what this clarifies instead it's symbolizing the believer's faith in the the person of christ in so it makes it very specific here in this confession which is great for us to know that jesus was crucified that he was buried and that he is a risen savior our savior v. risen savior might be a better way to put that <hes> and so clarifying exactly precisely who he is and what he's done for us and when i'm baptized i am identifying with that exact truth of who jesus is. I think that's the significant thing about that. Is this idea of obedience isn't necessarily meaning that the support of our salvation we're not saved by autism and there is belief of some denominations out there and the only reason i bring that out not to point out that our denomination maybe better or more theologically than another but to simply identify the differences right you know <hes> i am saying that because we are but it really the differences of the baptist faith and message with other beliefs out there because our baptism isn't a part of salvation though is something something we do in obedience after have come to christ ovation and i think that's a significant thing to note in the reason why so significant though oh is as you said you know this is really tying this into what christ has done right he was crucified he was buried and he's risen again and so therefore that's what our salvation albin as in not in anything of ourselves but only in that and because of that we have faith in him which in romans chapter six you see in verse three businesses. Do you not know that all of you who have been baptized into crises as bad is into his dad. Yeah we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death in order that just as christ was raised from dead by glory of the father we too may walk in newness of life in verse five for if we have been united with him in a beth like kids. We shall certainly be united with him. In a resurrection like this swiped you walk through the statement then goes on to say after what you read the believer's death to sin the burial of the old life if and the resurrection to walk in the newness of life inc crush these because our live in christ now is completely related to what he lived in did and died and rose again conquering so that we can live in him and that is why baptism so significant so though it's not a part of our salvation salvage unit is so important that we practiced this for new new believers yeah. There were ties him. You know obviously we could police say jesus taught orders to so we do it right but we can get the horror of why jesus told us to his this friday <unk> paul is still in the rome is that this symbolizing allies in exactly what prices done for us and so kathy golf the old man taking on the new so that we can now live in christ jesus. It's a very beautiful thing. Unfortunately i think we haven't made baptism. We haven't highlighted baptism enough. I think we we see that in a more modern movement where you see hundreds of people being baptized on the same day nothing against that i if you have to do with that way that's fantastic and the other thing thing i've seen in maybe using the same thing. Daniel is where you almost just tag a baptism on at the end of the service and you 'cause the person comes up you shake hands for a a brief. Moment in nothing else happens yeah this baptism yeah yeah. Baptism is just an amazing amazing thing that to me you almost would want to center the surface around because it's the old life being shaded off the new law taking on and it is the gospel itself it is it is the physical representation of the gospel message of jesus christ. That's exactly where i was going to follow up with breath and you know and i would make this clear to that in american church culture. This picture of baptism is an no pun intended. I don't meanest be funny but it is very watered down. <hes> and what i mean by that is when we talk about if you're talking about baptism in in a place it's like north korea or or india or you know these. These very highly persecuted countries trees christians baptism is basically you putting a mark on your back for the whole government to come after you for for for the people in that community who are the anti-christian muslim extremists to come after you if you identify with christ in baptism in in a in a persecuted country or in a country where christians are persecuted you you better be ready for what's coming your way because it was in that moment that you just just made you just became public enemy number one against those who are trying to snuff out christians and so in our country and our world in our in our way of life here in america especially here in what we call the bible belt of our excuse me the belt buckle of the bible belt so i was trying trying to get at you're looking at people who are we stand up and we celebrate and we have get togethers and parties afterwards when we know we hurry in hurrah for the people who get bad times and that's how it should be but in all reality we've we've missed what christ was really doing mare by by causing us to identify with him in baptism in his death just like what you just read and in recognizing that this is an act of not just obedience but an act of true faith that i'm placing my life in your hands because i realized that this this act of faith eighth in baptism might just be the beginning of the end of my life because i might be on the run from this point forward. If i'm living in a country christmas persecuted i might be on the run and and so you got to really count count the costs in someplace in this world before you choose to be baptized whereas here it's just kind of the natural next step in and that's okay. Hey i'm not saying that. I wish we were persecuted by any means but it's good for us to have that perspective of what baptism really could mean depending on where you are in this world world when it comes to following christ's william. We definitely see that in church. History is well when babs kind of separate from from the established church the catholic churches. That's exactly what happened to any of the believers began to practice this idea of immersion. They will what you think killed by other christians and you know that's just a totally different story totally different day. You know exactly what you're getting at. There want this next statement. Is there and we're gonna touch on it since you really expanded on it without even reading if versus mony his faith in the final resurrection of the dead this is a baptism is testimony of our faith that we're putting in christ jesus and that we will one day be resurrected from the dead that our salvation ovation is an eternal salvation. We've touched on this before on the purpose of god's grace but our salvation is tied into rice new christ alone so therefore we cannot lose it. Inspire baptism is a representation of the salvation we have found in him that we will be resurrected from the dead because christ was store resurrections. It's not only a spiritual resurrection but it's also going to be a physical one monday and this is the reason to that that you know. I think that when jesus tells his disciples go go and make disciples baptize on that he doesn't tell him baptism every time they repent of sins again. He just tells them baptism in other words. We see this picture of them. I'm only needing to be baptized. Once and not several times you don't have to be re cleaned right. I mean and this goes back to even the conversation that that jesus and peter had in the upper room when jesus said i need to wash your feet and peterson if you're gonna wash feet wash my whole body and jesus tells them your whole body doesn't need to be washed you've already been cleanse but you need to be washed symbolizing that there are times where sin comes back into our ally but there's no reason to be fully cleansed again because the original initial cleansing of our of our bodies our spiritual selves through the death burial resurrection of christ was fully sufficient his his blood has covered us one hundred percent until the day that we diaa but there are still times where we have the sand in our life that needs to be removed again and that's that ongoing picture of repentance but we see here that this final resurrection of the dead that we get to look forward to it's not something that we have to reclaim again and again and again in something that christ's claimed for ross and then gives to us as a gift in baptism is just that bike you've already said that beautiful picture of us receiving that gift freely by stepping into the water and coming out clean and that's i. There's this argument always. I the people you know. Do i have after baptized will be saved. Actually no we see accounts in scripture where and i know the big wounded return to across christ. I'll see you you're dies. He's he's not biped is right. It didn't happen and so does one have to be baptized to be saved. Not necessarily i think there's certain circumstances where they may not be able to be baptised before they die and this is where i may differ from swollen my other southern baptist sisters but i would almost say that there are circumstances where the practice of sprinkling or something else may be practical rather than immersion now that would look like a deathbed situation where somebody somebody can not be baptized by immersion <hes> that won't be the normal practice <hes> but the reason why baptism is so significant in this is this it sure of saying. I am dying to myself. I am taking up the new life and now i'm living for christ in this to me is simplest bliss form of sharing. The gospel is a new believer because you're doing that in front of other believers in a church setting generally yeah i've been in so preparing yourself go into the world to proclaim saint dane by living the life by proclaiming this verbally to those around but when we get to this last idea is being a church ordinance it is a prerequisite to the privilege of church membership and the lord's supper now. We touched on this a minute indigo but i do want to say emphasize some things in the allowed andrew to speak into it a little bit. I love the working here. Were says the privilege of church membership in lords supper now we're we're gonna touch on lord separate a moment and we've ordered shirt membership a little bit throughout the bob site the message but both of these things are great privileges to have as believers <hes> we we must have church membership and we must have the lord's supper. We've already talked about her. Baptism the picture of the gospel and the symbol of the gospel a remind bertha gospel so as the lord's supper and we'll get a look at that it just a moment but before we do that. Let's look at this idea. This is prerequisite of church membership. Now i know traditionally the baptist world <hes> when we take spot into church members here where we really have three forms that we accept people <hes> by church letter meaning that they are coming from another southern baptist church by baptism and meaning that they were saved within that church and they were baptized and the third was by profession of faith generally early meaning that they're coming from a church that was not southern baptist cat blood because of this what we also see is that generally if one hasn't been baptized appetite and they would be backed up as as they tried to come into church membership and i i agree with it to most extent if it should happen it should be a part of our christian life yeah and and i think i would completely agree with you there to james in my reasoning for agreeing because i will say that when i first got into ministry and began to who attempt to learn these things more clearly and understand more clearly besides just you know being a good southern baptist and say <hes> was just the way we do. It is in the bowels instead of doing that. I began to try to understand it for the real reason that it's there and the biggest reason is a because like we've already said we see that baptism autism by mercian is following in obedience to to exactly what christ did and therefore when you come to our church say you're coming by profession of faith but you are coming from another denomination well the reason that we're gonna still expect you in require you to band passes because what's going to happen before the baptism is a conversation and that conversation workstation that takes place before the baptism. It's going to start off as a conversation at least on that person's account as a conversation about baptism but what we're gonna get to do as ministers is. We're going to get to sit down and we're going to have a conversation about the gospel in having a conversation about the gospel. We're not only going to be just take receiving you as a member by quote unquote profession of faith but now we're going to have a real conversation and i'm gonna get to hear your testimony and i'm gonna get to talk to you about jesus and we're going to get to have a common conversation about the gospel of jesus christ in really make sure that this person that's sitting before me. That's coming by profession. Shirow faith is truly coming by a real profession faith in that. They're not just playing church and that's that's why it's important to me because because it presents an opportunity for a conversation obviously that's the case write ups. It gives us the opportunity to ensure that this individuals believer now hopefully hopefully if that doesn't happen that conversation has to happen before acceptance among the church membership. Fortunately it's always been the case because there's been random people wall down and how they vote in except ersan in terrible practice gladys shaffi moved away from it <hes> so glad that moved away from that with the other aspect aspect of this though is that began the conversation kind of went in with this is that we put an emphasis on the fact that baptism chris russia baptism specifically is immersion of a believer in water in so maybe some that come into church membership in the southern baz world that who coming from different denominations or backgrounds that baptized as infants where they were not baptized as believers they were as as is you know they would refer to it as covenant members right and so ask believers and so <hes> it's important if we're going to hold onto this and believe in this to be true is imported. We have it down to everybody in our church membership as they were baptized as believers and i think it's significant -nificant that we do so it's just consistent and inconsistent our our practices of southern baptists and i think that's an important now. We're not getting go in depth on this learn lord's supper under the setting because we want to move into the next subject and that is the law supper itself all right so as we move into to a deeper deeper discussion about the lord's supper james is going to read for us the expert from baptist faith and message regarding the lord's supper so now i so backup articles evan. We've walked through the baptist. Baptism portion in two separate says the lord's supper is a symbolic. I act of obedience where about members of the church through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine memorialize death of the femur you're in his second coming now once again but shorter than the first one but still very very weighty if we want to be honest in very compact and just very dense in just truth here and so as we look at at first and foremost we see this idea it says it has a symbolic act of obedience we saw this word at once before right <hes> and after the war says eight is an act of obedience symbolizing so he just same the thing just worded slightly different that lloyd upper much like baptism is an act of obedience that we now as i practice which is significant for us. I understand just as we look at baptism at our practice of communion or lord's supper. Have you referred to that. Sacrament does not save us but it is a practice that we now participate in as believers as we reflect and look forward to the second coming lord and savior yeah and and <hes> <unk>. I wanted to go ahead and just read real quick. The scripture that that explains to us about taking lord's supper it's matthew twenty twenty six twenty six hundred thirty so that just says real quickly now as they were eating jesus took bread and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples and said take eat this is my body and he took a cup when he had given thanks he gave it to them saying drink all of you for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins since i tell you i will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when i drink it new with you in my father's kingdom <hes> and so we know of course that jesus based in tells them and and this is what we see on on so many of our tables that we have in our churches and this is not quite as common now it's more of a traditional thing but for the lord's lord's supper table to say on their do this in remembrance of me and jesus says to his disciples as often as you do this do it in remembrance of me and so we see this idea here of doing it on a continuous ongoing basis and the reason being so that we can remember what christ it for us and we obviously see this idea of remembering <hes> which is exactly what the last supper is about all for the old testament where they were setting up high places places or <unk> of certain types where they would go back to it and as the people would be traveling and they would see this powell of rocks over here. The kids could ask their parents parents. Hey mom dad what is that over there for and the parents could say oh we'll that was put there by our people back when we crossed over the jordan river when god part of river forest or on and on there so many different instances where god told the people to set up some type of of remembrance so that they wouldn't forget about god's faithfulness towards them and so this is the same thing the son of god telling his disciples is to do just that by taking the bread and taking the wine. This is our way of remembering exactly what christ has done for us so that we may have salvation shen and ultimately eternal life with him. You know that's i saw in the world. We don't put a restriction on how often often to partake in the lord's supper right because in as scripture you read and then we look at paul's explanation to the spiritual core it. It just says this. This is often. It doesn't explain how often or do you just do often <hes> so many backgrounds not necessarily denominations which many any backgrounds in camps and things of such practice a weekly or monthly or quarterly or special occasions or some some wooden practices at all. We argue that they're not a church if they don't practice it but anyways the conversation for different day but what we see in this though is this is why for me as an individual vigil. I have no issue if i was a part of a church practicing this weekend we count because it is beautiful. Beautiful beautiful not only picture picture of the gospel reminder of the gospel in taking and feasting on the body and the blood of course not physically of course figuratively and reminder under of the sand that he took for my behalf so then i come to him in salvation and this is why like separate for me a new so often when you hear when you address this service and things of the such there's always this big emphasis on the the harsh reality of doing it with unconfessed sin and all of that i think should has its right place. I think we should explain that rightly to our congregations but i think we so often think think of it. So much is this we can take it yeah and that we do this. This such a reverence that it makes communion union itself something that it ought not be because in all reality will all approaching the table unworthy manner while approaching it with some kind of sin all alive maybe not unconfessed sin right but i think that it itself should be a reminder of the senate our lives and that's why we're best in our sins not because we lived in obituary moment before he came into the church and now that we are approaching the table. We confess that sin so that we don't die. I like a ni- since afire did right not not because that but because the reality of sin is setting in as we reflect on this as it says the bread representing body the fruit of the vine which i love the wording or because it leaves some leeway for those that practice juicing those the practice wine it doesn't say one of the other and so i i love the warning there but it is beautiful reminder of crisis done for us and what he has accomplished for us to james win in. It's just really just to piggyback on what you just said. I think that the wording in the statement here that it is to memorialize the death of the redeemer if we're understanding what that statement is truly saying then we will also be thinking about <unk> out. Why did the redeemer die. It's so that he can pay the price that we couldn't pay for our sense and so every time we go we come to the table. Every time we partake of the lord's supper it is a remembrance or memorialize ation of the thing that he did that. We couldn't do and so every time we think about that. I'm remembering that the sin that i have confess were unconfessed is only forgiven by by christ in what he's done across exactly exactly. It's something that i have to come and make myself perfect man. Do you know how many since and i have in my life that are so deeply hidden even from my own consciousness that until visit to me. I can't do anything about it. Besides just continued to say lord reveal my sent so that i can confess it in his own as i'm coming to the table with that type of heart with a broken and contrite hard over my sinfulness and over the simple fact that i need a redeemer and his savior if i'm coming to the table with that mentality may come on do exactly and that's what's so amazing about communion itself and i know they use the lord's supper. I just prefer communion. <hes> i just like awarding better <hes> we can call it what we want. It doesn't matter one way or another in those two warnings but i just i loved. I loved the lord's supper. I love a a preparation of it. I love presenting it. I love reading the scripture. I love singing afterwards. I love every aspect of this because it is gospel itself and not only as you mentioned earlier it goes so far back in our history as god's people that we even see this in in the moment <hes> and really that's what's so significant about it right christ when he instant uses. What is he doing the opportunity to reflect on the passover for flack on this moment that was looking forward to christ. That's what we also do. When we take community right we're looking forward to christ is second coming. I mean they just i drink dripping with the gospel man. Do a note and i love it and that's why it's just i understand why. Some people feel like they couldn't do it. Weekly i understand it. I i disagree with them. I understand where they're coming from but that's why i would have no reservation at all doing this weekend weekend because to me it's almost more than than singing god's glory because it is the exact imprint of what he did for us in what he implemented for us a reminder and we literally feast on that each week if we practice at each week we don't have to say this as a form of debate for those who say that we shouldn't take lord's lord's supper every week. How often do we tie the word. Prayer examined the ripping of god's word exactly ackerman that i think that the sacrament an element of wash thank shouldn't be only do on occasions as baptism but but how glorious and how happy would we be if we had a baptism every week man. I'd be extended if we have somebody in our church that needs to be baptized. We don't wait until we have several somebody's what will feel that bad boy up once for one person a week if it don't matter don't match glorious amazing any form of not only worship for that individual that worship for the congregation because as seen somebody be redeemed by crisis blood in the communion the lord's suppers the same picture of that weekend and week out that we participate in it in amazing <hes> i knew this is it's real fast. If you are a minister and you listen to this podcast and i imagine most to listen to our ministers but take time to preach and teach this don't just assume that your people already understand this because the ones who don't understand it. They might get the basics of why we lord's supper. They might get the basics of what baptism is but just like we unfolded in this conversation. It is dripping with the gospel and our people need to see and understand how deeply unrooted the gospel is all of this and as they see how deeply rooted the gospel is it's only going to enrich their experience. It's every time they see baptism. Every time they partake in the lord's supper. It's going to enrich their families experience. Get to explain it to their children. What the lord's supper is is about to enrich that whole worship service as they'd be as they understand deeper. It's going to enrich their worship time in singing. It's going to enrich their their understanding. Ending of the gospel as the pastor preaches it's going to enhance and enrich every single aspect of that time of gathering if they have a deeper and more clear understanding of what the lord's supper really is and how it unfolds the gospel through this act of taking the bread and john and i wanna to add to that end. I do want to just add this encouragement. If anyone out there that may be pasture church or on staff at a church dick dick can speak into the way they practice this is that if you're a member of a church that children come out of the sanctuary in some part of the service even even if they're small children. I mean even if they're you know third and fourth grader whatever the case may be. They're coming out of the sanctuary. Do new practice lord's supper when you practice communion do it before they leave the sanctuary. It is -nificant that the church be sending this to the children are the church in allowing allowing the parents the opportunity to teach their children what this means so. That's why that's why this issue with the way that we hold community so often is that we make it so reverend that nobody can speak during is nothing but silence. You can pin drop. Oh how wonderful would it be. The f. which we actually heard was family sitting together in the the father actually teaching their child their son or their daughter that this is jesus's blood this this is his body. This is what he did so that you can come to him in salvation and pray that he would do this for you soon in your life. How wonderful would that be. The here's here's your congregation say that and so we're not going to end the plug of the week we we just wanna end then encouragement that like daniel said teach this to your congregation t._c.'s two principal sue congregation and then lastly what our encourage you is when you practice things. Don't tag them to your services. There are meant to be a part of worship so make them apart of worship <hes> if it's apt as a more of a source upper make it a part of the regular practice of your worship when you do these things <hes> and it will be glorious in great thing for you and your congregation to do so and maybe we're church member at their new listen when you don't have any control over that bring it up. You pastor mentioned to have this conversation. I would think i that if you wanna want to just talk to them about it. And why you do certain things you do in your church i think they would enjoy that terrible pastor and they may not so yeah and just to defend the pastor pastor there <hes> because that's what we are <hes> don't go to your pastor and barade- him as he's not doing it the way that you think he should be doing it or because he's not doing it the way that we're talking about right now. Go to him and have a conversation. Ask him astor. I noticed that we only do the lord's supper x number of times a year. Can you explain to me why we do it this seldom or this often. Can you so help me understand. Do you think that there might come a time where we could do it. More often. Have a give and take conversation. Don't come there wagging your finger at him because i i know that that pastor is just as human as i am in any time somebody comes wagging a finger at me. I'm just saying but most of the time when they're wagging. They're fingers. The last thing i wanna do is hear what you had to say to me in human but in the meantime right because i'm way but come with grace and mercy because that's what the pastor's trying we do every day with his congregation is to present himself and to approach his people with grace and mercy so do the same for him. I would venture to say that most pastors out out there not most would lie to practice more often than the church does in so if you come to that competition gracefully daniel i was saying i think you would be greatly surprised of how edifying you would be for. Both you and your pastor of you. In also would politics only be beneficial for the church for somebody else to mention it rather than just faster because somebody else wondering why we do this as a church and so daniel. Do you have anything to say before. We jump off this episode man. I just think this a great episode. You know sometimes coming into in a no. It's been awhile since i've been able to join you guys but coming into these episodes. Sometimes you wonder what type of conversation is gonna unfold is going to be boring but as we really begin to expound on it and talk more about it managed just amazing how god begins to work through this conversation that we have right here <hes> and really help us get get excited about these basic simple truths of of the church <hes> and of his plan for us in how we live our daily lives and so <hes> manages all right take subra and as i transitioned into youth ministry and his daniel does youth ministry hollywood and would say don't take him you go to some random camp joke joe. I'm n._b._a. Serious but i'm just using it as jest but anyway this has been another episode of the everyday ministry podcast in. We are a podcast where everyday main issues get together gather to discuss ministry. We'd like to thank you for listening to today's episode of the every day ministry podcast where we see to provide quality content i through our full length episodes the release every first and third monday of the month and second through the ministers minute these are short ten to fifteen minute episodes released every second and fourth monday of the month in which one of our co hosts will seek to answer a specific question related to everyday ministry. If you enjoyed today's episode we encourage you to subscribe and rate the podcast through the podcast catcher of your choice we can be found on itunes google play stitcher tune in spotify and youtube today we pray peace in grace for you through our lord jesus christ and happy ministry aw <music> <music> <music> you work ah <music> <music> <music>.

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BFM  The Church

Christian Podcast Community

43:58 min | 1 year ago

BFM The Church

"The church what is it how do we define it. What does the new testament have to say about the church and its members. What does it look like for a congregation to operate under the lordship of jesus christ kristen james will utilize the baptist faith in message to tackle these questions and more and today's episode of the everyday ministry podcast wherever de ministers get together to discuss every day ministry thousand eight stone. This is james spite. The passionate lighthouse community church joy of sitting here with kris knows worthy chris. How is everything going with your wife and james. Everything's going great summers wrapping up so getting ready you to send the kids back to school. Our youth are actually about to go on their youth trip and it was kind of late in the summer but looking forward to that for them. I'm in <hes> milwaukee and i just had our twelfth wedding anniversary. We're actually about to go out of town for that as well. You know just normal life stuff but it's all good. How about you man. I'm doing great happy anniversary to you and your wife. So is any of your kids what you call you age or they going on this trip or now. We're going to have a back to school kind of thing that our kids will attend like a swimming day or whatever. I guess they go to school <hes> at the end of next week i think so then i guess i mean my kids do anyway. We'll have like a swimming party next weekend but now my kids aren't part of the like use group are youth group is a very big but sometimes they do have like events where my daughter might be be involved with what some of the age kids the younger youth age kids but <hes> gotten as far as going on a trip. That's why i asked that because i knew there younger but we'd be in a smaller church. Sometimes they ended up doing things together more often than no larger churches or whatever the case may be but man on my own mind at all if things go when whale getting to be on a guest of another podcast as part of the podcast community and we're recording right after this so inbetween <hes> mom tolkien when chris talks. I'm probably going to be snacking on some chicken. Fingers baked potatoes so going good and vernon alabama and the white residents vince things about the same as usual. I did find out one good thing this week though so start back until the nineteenth of august for me into that means as i have twenty days in between semesters and i am so happy about that it's going to be the best twenty days of my year attract. You know the birth of my child. It wasn't your daughter born this year. I spend more time with her vow of not being in school so let me justify that way but this week's episode we're looking at baptist faith and message once again and we're going to be looking at the church now as cushion. I was talking about four. We have addressed this topic. Before before on a previous episode has been about a year or so ago now and it's actually if christopher members this or not it's actually what jumpstarted us in addressing the baptist faith and message because we were just recording the episode on the church corey was still host at the time and as we were addressing it would just ended looking at the baptist faith and message is we will open all the way through it so. Maybe you want to go back and listen to that episode along with this one <hes> now a lot of information will probably be a similar but we did have koi abound awesome different things so it might be different in some ways. We would encourage you to go back. Check out that episode but for this week's episode as we look at the baptist just faith a message. We're going to walk through it much statement at a time as we've done in previous episodes but before we jump into just want to take a short break to listen to a commercial from one of the podcasts or the crucial podcast community the five solas podcast a weekly podcast hosted by james james watkins that is dedicated to the reformed theological distinctive and their continued relevance for the church and world today grace alone faithful christ sologne scripture alone to the laurie of god alone join us each episode to discuss the trues of these foundational rallying cries the protestant justin reformers the prophetic challenge they present and the sound wisdom they provide as we delve into their biblical meaning theological significance and reflect upon and appropriate appropriate their truce we will be engaging issues in the church and world each week from the rich inside reformation christianity. We will be showing all all the manifold ways in which this material helps challenge and direct the current church in its life of worship and witness. I'm confronted the idols of our age with biblical goal discernment and a sound apologetic in a manner that is open and transparent as possible well challenging you to seek the glory of god in all oh you do solve dale gloria welcome back from the marshall from one of the other podcasts part of the community wanted to encourage you to go over to cushion cushioned podcast community dot com check out some of the other podcasts we have there but until then chris would you begin by reading the whole statement of magistrate the message the church sure thing yeah this article six of the church says a new testament church of the lord jesus christ is an autonomous local local congregation of baptized believers associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel observing the two ordinances of christ iced governed by his laws exercising the gifts rights and privileges invested in them by his word and seeking to extend in the gospel to the ends of the earth each congregation operates under the lordship of christ through democratic processes in such a congregation. H member is responsible and accountable to christ as lord. It's scriptural offices are pastors and deacons while both men and women are gifted for service in the church. The office of past fear is limited to men as qualified by scripture new testament speaks also of the church as the body of christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages believers from every tribe and tongue and people and nation so just want to begin by really looking at the very last part of that and then we're going to jump into the new testament church aspect of it and it's that last sentence the new testament also speaks of the church as the body of christ which includes all of the redeemed of all ages believers from every tribe tongue and people and nation in i guess that would become more commonly only referred to as the universal and invisible church simply meaning that the church is all believers all times in all nations <hes> not it just all local congregations. The churches all believe for <hes>. I think that the church is the visible and the invisible so it's the people we see that people don't see all times all ages the whenever we think of the church generally that's kind of how i think of the term as the body the of christ and kind of like how would stay like oh we're going to church. That doesn't necessarily mean. It's a building. The church is not the building and whenever we say you know so and so started church or they go to a different church than we do. <hes> we use that to mean they fellowship with the body of christ locally in in a different location than we do but we are all the church. All christians all-time are the church so sometimes sometimes we do kind of lose sight of that unity in christ that we have whenever we are operating with our local church or you know local representations presentations of the body of christ. That's what most of the top paragraph is about <hes> and i think it's good that they added this in their and pointed yeah that out <hes> and it's good to have in mind when we talked about a church will typically be talking about a local congregation. They were all part of the church exactly and that's why i wanted to start here because though understand why they have the lodger china on the local congregation i wanted talk with the universal an invisible church because ultimately as you said are building our local congregation isn't in the church is just a local churchill ochre gathering of certain relievers coming together under the ordinances as we're going to look at in that but i guess as we look at that i do you have a question before we even jump into the baptist. Faith and message is why's it important than to have local congregations and then even in that that was an important that we have in different denominations within the local context lows are kind of two different questions over time to answer both of those <hes> not not in full but i mean i guess you can be part of the church universal without being part of a local church but you're not going to be a healthy part art universal church without fellowship in the body and then because that is the way we have been made been created to be in unity with each other. We've been created to you know one of us as the hand. The other is the foot christ as the head and god has ordained in scripture that there are pastors that there are deacons on that we are to fellowship to each other that we are too correct one another that we are to participate in baptisms the lord's supper and these are all things that you're not going to be able to take okay part of by yourself at home. Yeah i agree and i think you know as we look at the statement itself and just gonna explain why the local congregation is necessary because could you can do these things faithfully unless you are part one now to address. My second question is why it's different. Denominations imported the local context because you do hear the argument of you know. Why can't we just all let your for different beliefs in worship together in like denominations and then you even even almost here at argued is there's not gonna be denominations in heaven and and they're all of those things variety true but even when we look at these things there's going to be different aspects aspects and different theologies that people were going to different and that causes us to separate into different denominations for example in the message we see that the scriptural offices as pasture and deacons while both men and women are gifted for the services of the church. The office of pasture is limited to men as qualified by scripture and so you and i can attend a church that had quote unquote a woman pastor in and that's just one example of some differences. Obviously you know there's differences in baptism and the lord's supper and she sizing gifts rights and just pretty much in every area this but that's why it is important that there is different denominations. Now you know obviously you know tertiary issues that we can let go of and do worship gatherings with other churches with and kind of partner with them. I think that's important for just as we talked about earlier just the unification of the universal church <hes> so yeah i know a number of people who attend churches of a denomination that they wouldn't necessarily identify with but given their neighborhood or location or off for other reasons that they attended you know maybe the presbyterian they tend to baptist church that kind of thing <hes> because they do acknowledge the universal universal church and maybe if they had another church that was similar to what they thought or you know what was correct they would attend church but i guess that say that there are the things that in certain situations certain you know we tend to overlook disagreements and that aren't as like you said <hes> like top tier or second interior agreements or disagreements or not <hes> core to the doctrine of the faith and <hes> at any church we're going to have disagreements on one on level to another and some are minor and some of them aren't but when it goes into the primary doctrines <unk> which you know most evangelicals whether they are are charismatic baptist presbyterian or whatever on the primary doctrines of the faith we all agree on that for the most part you get into a secondary doctrines and that's where we start to have some discrepancies and sometimes you you choose to overlook those things for other reasons now. We don't choose to look things that we see as sinful to still be able to attend a church then i think at that point you're you're going against your conscience and i don't think that that's that that that's healthy. You know as we look at the conversation on the bachelor. I think that's important to note because as we've talked about before southern baptist church is early a big tin domination and so every congregation you're gonna go to the difference in various ways and so you can't blanket statement say their southern baptist necessarily believe this this and this when it comes to some of these secondary or tertiary issues but will we hopefully can say is that they would line up on these areas of what the church is so. I was kinda. Jump into that says a new testament church of the lord jesus. Christ is an autonomous local congregation agregation of baptized believers associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel so as we look at this just initial statement in the baptist faith the message what comes to my mind is the word autonomous <hes> the importance of that is kind of church governance. Would you say yeah and that's is kinda. Why it's funny while i think sometimes you'll see like independent baptist congregation whereas this being a statement of faith by the southern baptist convention invention it actually says all of the churches that take part in the convention are autonomous <hes> because it's not a it's almost like an inverted pyramid rather than a you know. It's not a top down kind of situation or the president of the s._b._c. doesn't make or have any control over the things that happened at my church search. I'm the pastor with a congregation. We make decisions together about what happens at our church <hes> and the s._o. Autonomy has to do you with what's happening in our church and the structure. There's no structure outside of our church. That's telling our church what to do now. It is clear to say that we're not autonomous in the sense that we don't have to follow the bible or you know or christ as our head our lead but means separate from each other. We're making the decisions for the things things that happen. In our church who are pastors. Deacons are those kind of things which i mean obviously it's so states in the beginning that a new testament church of the largest cry so we're not you know he's still ultimately thority. He still the one that is the key shepherd the shepherd of the church and so what i find so i wrote about this. Though is this misunderstanding <hes> because there's so many times you'll see people that don't wanna participate in part of sociation or things of that nature is they're afraid somebody's going to come in and kind of take control but i would argue you know a lot of the issues seeing in the southern baptist supporter out now especially with the sexual allegations how to handle that a reason that it's so difficult to get a handle on is because of this right here now because there's nothing then you can make a church do as their autonomous <hes> on that same note though obviously if they disagree with informed about say the message there there's a process of dissociation between that church and this are the magic convention and we don't see that a whole lot normally as churches pulling out rather than being kicked out but then it is possible you know obviously we do see here this idea of baptized believers coveting together in the faith and fellowship the gospel just mainly ainley say in the churches those that are repented ri- those at no christ and so what what is the what is one of the key things the church comes together and do is what we see in the next part was observing the two ordinances of christ so no i think we both know what they ought to this with a arcus baptism and the lord's supper or communion however you want to say that not the eucharist well. I mean you could say it that way if you want to. I guess i don't care uh-huh sacraments or ordinances yeah exactly <hes> given that there is some people will say lord suburbs some say communion and now we don't get too far past that in to the baptist world. I don't think anybody would ever say you're chris but i don't know though there are some different guys out. There might be somebody who says it just because i like the word that's right. That's right so the baptism and lord's supper and so when we look at these two things obviously baptism happens when when somebody comes across from salvation in so we know in that one happens. How often do we assume baptist participate in lords supper communion. There is no rule on that. It's up to the church so we at our church. We do it every every third sunday i do <hes>. I don't know why so me personally. I would be perfectly fine doing it every week but actually delight right in that and i don't find the arguments of why we don't do it more often as excusable is the common argument is if it's loses its meaning if we do it we but we worship weekly. We preach weekly. We read the scripture weekly. <hes> we do all of those things weekly so i don't find it as a good argument but i do wanna i just stayed in this is that as long as churches observing these things in it <hes> according to the basket the message is i church now the issue i have found in many southern about churches it's just that they never never take the lord's supper and almost out of that fear that it is something holy and something reverend that so so holy so reverend that you can't what do it often and i think that's a shame now with that being said i should be more intentional as a pastor of judah more regular macho church but i do have some pushbacks so anyway. Maybe you want to address an opening close table <hes> yeah i mean the the way that we do at our church. Is you know we kind of leave it up to the people. If you're a visitor and you wanna do it at your own risk then you know you're you're welcome to come observe with us. We'll take you at your word and then that's between you and god. I don't know how it is in alabama and louisiana. We have quite a lot of catholic churches and you know i've mostly only been during weddings and it'll be funny say funny but it'll be interesting because you'll have a all the bridesmaids and groomsmen will then take part in communion mm union but then you know who the protestants are atheists. I guess because they they don't take part in the communion in the church because they're not part of the catholic church yeah. I know there's an in between there. There's a big difference between that though not to go down this rabbit trail it is that the catholic view of communion or the eucharist or is totally different than our view. Maybe you wanna pronunciation that workforce trans substantiation yeah yeah the bread and the wine does not literally turn into crisis body nor blood unlike what the catholic would say so i so <hes> then we see as we walk through this idea of other governed by his laws really meaning just that the fact that the church is set up by what scripture would say <hes> kind of what is laying out in this idea in this exercising the gifts rights and privileges. He's invested in them by his word now so obviously in your background chris this idea of exercising gifts would probably a much different than this world yep so because of that you know in. We mean by that if you if you're new listeners that chris grew up the charismatic world and if you've seen benny hen on t._v. Just think about that. That's what what you speaking in tongues. You see a postles rules prophets all of these great interesting things laying on of hands down four yeah yeah all of those weird crazy things <hes> watch american gospel. Apparently i haven't got to yet who watch american gospel recommended talking about there. So what do you think that means. What does it look like in a church to exercise the gifts and rights and privileges accorded the statement well i specifically think about you know paul's words and many of his letters but specifically in the core in the letter to the koren's ways talking about that everybody has a part of the church that you you know somewhere handsome are facing or your noses that they functioned to the battlement barrowman and the fulfillment of the church and so we do see that really that there's different gifts and different personalities that we were in dwelt with that. They've got is giving us so that the church can function properly uh-huh you know much like you know you might have individuals in the church that you're gifted at communication or even evangelism or you think of <hes> royce you know he's gifted an apologetic so somebody like that. You know obviously many people can study those things and pick those things up up with to some extent. There is a supernatural thing they god doesn't somebody to allow them to retain into no things in so that's one gift that they may have now. Obviously everybody's called to evangelize. Everybody's call to share the gospel but there may be that individual in the church that has more gifted in that specific area that they can better equip yep one another's in doing that and thanks and there's other aspects that we see that in all reality we're all called serve the church in whatever capacity is needed and now we talked about this on one of this discipline they were says. I think it was on serving in chris. I think you specifically said that you don't have to have the spiritual gift of sweeping or something like that labor soldiers in so you know there's obviously different things that has to happen in the church. That's not really a gift left but they're all different. Gifting that we have is individuals that god gives us so that we can cervo congregation yeah and i think that whatever we consider senator the rights and privileges <hes> it also makes it clear that we are all ministers of the gospel <hes> there's not special like the passer isn't special in that sense or in a way that maybe perhaps a priest or something like that ad or someone like that in a certain denomination or almost a cult or megan thing about colts. It's <hes> you know where only the holy people who have been ordained officially are allowed to do anything and you're just you're just supposed to sit there and and listen and do whatever they tell you that kind of thing <hes> i it's all of our responsibility of all of our privilege <hes> the preset of all believers vers scripture teaches for us to you know to take part in spiritual things no doubt and you know i think it's important that we realized that and that's why when we look at this idea of gifts in connection to that we may not be giftedness. Pacific area wins out of the church or outside of the church in god's calling us to this is and we're called to do it so you know the then see this idea of seeking to extend the gospel ends of the earth. You know we're not going hatch that out because i think that's pretty well understood that the church's purposes to evangelize to share the gospel not only as a congregation but as individuals that make the church up then you move on us as each congregation operates under the lordship of christ <hes> s we began the statement off we see as a new new testament church or lord orgies christ said we are under the crisis lordship is not in anybody's individual church per se that they're the one that the you know it stops and starts with them. This is crisis church but we do see this idea of this democratic process. I'm gonna let you explain that one man because i i really don't know the mitch way of putting it out there. I think it is one of those things. That's a little bit like i've been to baptist church. I've been a part of two baptist churches basically and and <hes> the processes looked a little bit different at both to say you know democratic or not always kinda hear the horror stories about churches who literally have to vote wrote on every single thing that ever happens and you know the color of the carpet or the almost the flavor of the air freshener and the rest of the sent you know <hes> neither turks that i've been a part of have looked anything like that. <hes> they are elder lead. <hes> you know so the pastor sir does lead the congregation <hes> but <hes> whenever it comes to <hes> or ordaining being elders or deacons or <hes> big financial things that involve church or are things like other things like that that <hes> the church body has a part in that it's not it's not a dictatorship or where there's one guy ruling everything <hes> but it's the pastors along with the congregation or as part of the congregation making the decisions within the church as part of their autonomy and i don't know how it looks like in your church <hes> i've also heard a lot of on what about say doesn't take place in your church but now i kinda grew up here in the horror stories of churches where they're you know they're ran by. Deacon bornes a bunch of guys who you know treat the pastor like he's just some guy who shows up on sunday to to talk to them. You know he's just there to preach and they're there to do the rest of the thing and make all the decisions or there's somebody in the church who has a lot of money they give a lot of money church and then they control everything that happens in the church is everybody. Nobody is afraid of them or those kind of things <hes> and you hear stories of the matriarch patriarch in the church. That's been there longer than anybody a and they're the ones making the decisions and <hes> you know like everything you've mentioned. Here's terrible ways of poaching saying that they they ought not be <hes> now. I do think that there's room here and i think we've talked about this enough. On the broadcast that dilution should already know that we prefer an elder led system and that we would almost argue that when there's deacon light system that is really their leading as elders in the church <hes> but i do think there's room in this statement that we can see that there might be different forms of church government which would argue against the the common thought the deacon lead is the only way you can do it in this southern baptist church which is not true <hes> lead not only biblical but it also is a practical approach where the congregation instill approach things the congregations or that process specifically an aspect of electing elders and deacons take a lot of the functions of rose on. I think this is important one thing to look at because it ties into that church autonomy thing because this is where they're run by. They're not ran by property or a you know body. Audio of elders make up the local area that makes every decision for church. That's why supported because it plays in with this tottenham is nature of the church and they can look like different ways to different degrees as i said some churches you're going to have a vote and you know that has to be one hundred percent of the people who vote or some people. Some churches just wanna majority. This is one reason why it's also very important the congregation to be baptized believers because the body as a congregation does make decisions and they do make decisions is that sometimes there are practical in aren't quote unquote spiritual the la times they are making spiritual decisions as well together on. This is why it's important didn't for the member. The member of the church has many functions. You know why you would want to be a member of a church reasons for that. One of them goes was into or there's some denominations that would would have would allow members in their church that aren't baptized or aren't even confessing believers to you know for some churches <hes>. There's a reason why our membership must be confessing baptized believers that's because they are you know we are operating together. All these various ways in ultimately as a congregation though there are practical things you know painkillers and and all of that but it all boils down to spiritual things of the church and business of the churches all imported on not only the decisions we may but how we ate them and i think that's the issue that comes into all of this is that there's a lot of people that seem to not necessarily be baptized believers making decisions and churches perches. Maybe me judging people understand that may seem very borderline there but that's a reality to it because it's hard for me to believe that an a party that separate over a church color or corporate color or baptized believers there so on that right there right now obviously most cases the issues but to it all right so let's let's just keep on going through this is we're kind of getting close in time it goes on and says any such congregation asian each member's responsible and accountable crisis lord baptist believer therefore they're accountable decries naturally make sense says inscrutable office or pastors ascherson deacons with both men and women or gifted for service in the church. The office of passers limited to man as qualified by scripture now. We're going to address address these to these two roles but so we don't have to go in depth on addressing why women can't function in these role that the role of pastor we wanna just put you back on the previous episode that we did with michelle leslie leslie show leslie. Will we really address that <hes> and the whole episode also in kano how a woman can function in the church in a biblical way and so we wanna push you to that episode refer you back to that so chris and i would both agree that in a woman can't be a pastor of a church but one thing that i find unique about the statement is is the office of pasture is limited to men qualify <unk> it eh immune you talked about that in this in that episode is that doesn't say that the office of deacon is limited to men yeah that that the role of a deacon is not limited to qualified men and <hes> if you wanna know i'll take on that just kind of get you in a up on that. Go listen to that. <hes> an offset. There are a lot but go listen that episode to be fantastic resource if you have not already listened to it so let's look at these girls look at pasture. Let's look at deacon. We've done an episode owed on each of these so we don't want to go to death but chris. I'll let you take whichever one you won't discuss the other one well. The the role of pastor is a lot more clearly define the role of deacon <hes>. I feel like it'd be cheating if it's like that one like you said we've done episodes on on these before all some before i was here i guess guess technically well not really because the pasture one is the one that we did with you yeah. We'll you came on before. I came on so yeah i was here during that portion although not as an official member so yeah so deacons you know i really see diggins. I think it's acts chapter after six and they're they're really the you know you see that word used and it's basically people who are being who are serving during the lord's supper and they're doing a sense kind of manual labor and the reason given is so that the apostles can minister the word and not be distracted distracted by other things. Let's essentially the first thing we well. We do see that. They are ordained that they are spiritual. Men of even was one of those original deacons weakens <hes> that we saw and we see other places in scripture where paul gives the qualifications of a deacon and we know that they are supposed to be godly spiritual muslim <hes> who are to be ordained in the church and the word deacon comes from the greek word diagnose kano's or basic <hes>. I think i'm saying that correctly which basically it just means servant yeah so deacons are recognized servants of the church and you know. We don't want to go to death because like we said we did an episode on deacons. That was an episode with god during he's from gordo. Me and daniel interviewed him. You're listening to that episode. Fantastic sewed <hes> the role of a deacon simply to serve the church <hes> we saw you know chris explained oil and so as we look at the idea of a pastor then the idea of a pasture or let's say elder or you know we wanna word it either way. They're interchangeable role of pastor. Elder is to lead the church and it's more than as you said earlier the horror stories of dicken lead churches of a horrific stories of that is more than showing up on sunday morning warning in preaching in teaching on wednesday nights and leading prayer meeting or whatever the mess that some churches think it's leading the church net spiritually. That's decision decision making that's with what's being taught what's being presented in the church. As i said earlier me chris would both agree that the best form of this is being d- <hes> elder lead and so just go back on some of the few episodes we don't wanna shout out too much but really just importance of those two roles in the church <hes> <hes> no i say that but my church doesn't have deacons now official dickens anyway but we do have men that serve the church and so i think that's yeah we do see pictures of that in our congregation and so as we look at all of that really just to sum everything up you know we looked at the idea of of the universal churches whereas the local church local churches is a gathered body of believers baptize their coming together observe the two ordinances being governed by christ in his loss exercising league gifts and building up the body of believers. Why so that the gospel can be taken can out to the world around them sounds good before we jump into the plugs of the week. I do want to take another pause and listen to a commercial not from our guests guests of cushy podcast community but from the august guns which is the man that allows us to use their music each and every episode the hi mike. What's up this louis. Hey i'm kirk and i play bass. We're the aug gun were rock vantage in the morning. I will your music trudeau every day. Ministry podcast intercut are ready to noise on spotify. I._t.'s any other major streaming platforms we through god's grace have encountered jesus crises. We desire to be quite that were people through what would be of jackass we wanna thank them again for allowing us to use their music each and every week and so we come to the end of the podcast very very quickly liscio some plugs of the week so i'll begin by giving mind and i have a bunch <hes> that i could reference on this. This is something i've studied a lot but really just the simple. Ones are anything on marxist sensually good focus but to be more specific for the listeners more diverse book. I'm also also a christian church really spent funding fundamental in understanding what the churches and then if you're not that level yet and you don't feel like reading being that book because it is kind of own of already chris is a little more not necessarily academic but it's a little more <hes> professional and some buca church and so the one i do want to recommend if you're not looking for something like that and you're looking for something more simple a trilogy about joe in college urge one curator of the church one is the heart of the church and one is the life of the church. I think i read all three of them. Within a day and a half the book simple books to read now they are from reformed baptist perspective so you're gonna get that but that's okay because if you're not that you can you can take the meat and eat inspector bones so chris. That's what you got forest land for this week man. That's fine <hes> just i know we gave a bunch of recommendations on the previous episode. If i think about it i may go. Oh pull those recommendations are often put put him on the show notes of this one as well but would just one encourage you listeners if you're passers or elders or deacons dance or official role in the church. I share your leading god's people the way that he's calling you to and serving god's people the way he's calling you to and if you're just a church member and i don't want to say it like just h member as you're not significant because you are the first church memorabilia part of your church and be a part of your congregation bombarded the decisions shouldn't be a part of every aspect of it. Call your leadership to accountability if they're not meeting up to the qualifications of award at church looks like as we see in the bandits faith the message and so chris before we jump ball food. You have anything else to add. We didn't say a <unk> quote a lot of scripture this week so i just wanna point want anybody who has listened to this all the way through <hes> that you can read the baptist faith a message. If you just want to google search it it's on s._p. The s._b._c. website <hes> which are a lot other places. Have it and you can read it for free but there are a specific scripture versus tied into each one of these points <hes> so if you wanna do some more research on this there there are plenty of scripture versus where we can link in our show notes so if you want to do more research about these specific points mentioned in this article on the church that i will they they are provided there we have this has been a beneficial for the ministry. They got has called you to and we hope that you serve diligently. We'd like thank you for listening to today's episode of the everyday ministry podcast where we see to provide quality content i through our full length episodes that release every first and third monday of the month and second through the ministers minute these are short ten to fifteen minute episodes released every second and fourth monday of the month in which one of our co hosts will seek to answer a specific civic question related to everyday ministry. If you enjoyed today's episode we encourage you to subscribe and rate the podcast through the podcast catcher of your choice we can be found on on i tunes google play stitcher tune-in spotify and youtube today we pray peace and grace for you through our lord jesus christ and happy team ministry breast cancer ooh <music> <music> yeah yeah <music> <music> yeah <music> <music> who'll sane <music>.

chris southern baptist church baptist church buca church alabama milwaukee official southern baptist paul kristen james james kris spotify google youtube james james watkins christopher marshall partner president
SERMON  What it means to love our neighbors  Popcorn Festival.

Beavercreek Christian Church

16:56 min | 1 year ago

SERMON What it means to love our neighbors Popcorn Festival.

"So is it okay. If I stand down here. I'm in shorts and I'm like feels weird. I don't know I know you guys Siemian shorts before but I I think I've ever spoken in shorts before in front of you guys. The kids are like Dude all-time stew. That's true but don't take these are my legs. Everybody Sandals does have a Sandal Tan from the summer called the Teva Tan so you guys have that anybody that no yeah yeah of course does yeah. I mean so when I was a kid. I went to a small Christian church just in my neighborhood when I was about fourteen. My cousin said hey man you need to come with me because because they get points if I bring guests to thing and I get prizes and I'm like that's cool. I'll go with you right so they could get points. I got I got a cut of it. When we left later this candy and and so I went and I started going but the cool thing was when I walked in setting the very very back row. Were three of my good friends from school. One of the guys ended up being the best man in my wedding and he and I had just gotten close we were playing football together a- actually convinced him to play football with me and I walked up to him was like what the heck guys. Why did you go to church there like we didn't know you didn't as okay well cool. Can I say what do you gather so we all sit down and long story short. That's when I started attending church. Regularly I become a Christian a few years prior to that because it went to church camp but I was kind of nominal because my mom was the same you know she wouldn't take me a lot of times and you know now when you're in middle school. You're at your parents your at your parents. Will you do what they say anyway so we slip analyzed Sundays so I remember having been going to church for about a year with my friends I would constantly go to youth group in shorts yeah constantly the Abbey like as time for youth group headed out and go to go to church or go to church in short but we were at my grandmother's house one Sunday afternoon. We'd been there most of the day it was. I don't know if he was a holiday or something like that but we were there and and it's been playing outside with my with my cousins and my cousin says hey come and go to church with us to our church which is a small rural Baptist Church. Any Rural Baptist Church folks in the room who it's a different world right. Let's be honest if you've never been to a southern Baptist Church in the middle of Kentucky. You haven't been to church for real. I'm just saying okay and and anyway so I was like yeah. Let's go mom stopped me at the door. She's like you're not going to church like that. Like what like I was thinking she wouldn't they didn't want me to go to church with them. Like there was a doctrinal issue right like we're going to argue calvinism at youth group or something and and she goes she stops me. She stops me. She says like what she's like in shorts in going to church all the time is shorts mom yeah but that's that church you don't go. This is the church she grew up in and you weren't going to church looking like that. Well I went to church like that and we were just is going to youth group. It wasn't a big deal because my cousin stepped in and goes. I'm going to church shorts and so one thing you ever feel like that about church like it's a bunch of rules address the right way. Speak the right language. You know do the right things. You don't show up on a Sunday morning doing it right if I have insurance for a long time so that was fourteen. I'm forty-six. y'All do the math on the church wrong time. Yeah I think there is a guy in the book of Luke who felt the same way things guidebook. Luca felt the same way. You guys have heard the story before. storytime was to look it's Luke Chapter Ten starting in verse twenty any five now going to have it on the screen so if you've got a device or Bible these deeper things kids. This is a Bible okay. It's got paper in it they it. It's really cool now. If you guys want to look that up chapter ten verse Twenty Five you'll notice the story once I start reading it some of your like Oh. I know the story is going to go to because because you're bibliophiles on one occasion an expert in the law stood up test Jesus teaching ask what must I do inherit eternal life. What is it. What is written in the law he replied? How do you read it. He answered love your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your strength and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Somebody's been paying attention to Jesus's teachings because Jesus would constantly quote the Old Testament which this is from Deuteronomy chapter four constantly do that and so he goes. Oh I know the right answer. I'm talking to Jesus Jesus. It's Love God and love your neighbor got. It nailed it right. Jesus answered. You have answered correctly. Jesus replied do this listen. You will live but he wanted to justify himself so we ask him. Who is my neighbor. He wanted not justify himself me. He wanted to justify himself. You WanNa know if he could wear shorts short church. That's what he wanted to know. Am I doing it right say wrong. Well go to hell. What if I don't go. What if I don't do the right thing and God's will is what God wants is worried about that right so Jesus goes on replied. Jesus said a man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho when he fell into the hands of robbers Dome Dome Okay. They stripped him. His close beat him and went away leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road. When he saw the man he passed by on the other side. God so to leave I'd when he came to the place and saw him passed on the other side now. I'M GONNA pause there for a second. You've heard the story four story of the Good Samaritan so the priest in the levite from the same clan something tribe right tribe of Levi the prese this right. They supposed to know the law right. They're supposed to know the rules these the pastors you get it. Go ask the pastor. He knows we really don't but will act like we do know but he he's so these guys are supposed to law and you kinda get that they do because they pass on the other side because you know the law. If you touch a dead body you can't go to worship. It's illegal like I don't know how they tell right. Sniff your hands. They have dogs at the door a metal detector. I don't know but you wear allowed to worship. You couldn't go into the temple yeah yeah and so they acknowledged this so we read this and go all those jerks right. Maybe they weren't jerks. Maybe like that's a good body. I'm going to church. I go to worship at the temple. I can't do this so they just go. Another Sean wrote right. You know the rules right. Well you do on a Sunday morning. You Get up. You have breakfast. I mean read something. Watch a little news and I'll get ready for football season something like that. Then you go to church have Sunday lunch. Maybe do something later with your family. Yeah those are the rules. Christian does yeah uh we know the rules yeah but what if what if a brother sister needs our help what if our neighbor needs are hell. That's where we pick the story backup in verse thirty three but Samaritan as he traveled came where the man was when he saw him. He took pity on him. He went to him bandaged his wounds porn on oil and wine then you put the man on his own donkey he took him to an end and took care of him the next day he took out to silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper look after him he said and in our return our reimbur- reimburse you for any extra expense. You have heating cross only aside. He seems to be going to worship two guys head down same road. There were all going to worship at the temple. I stopped any bandages. Guys wounds put him on his own donkey pay for his medical expenses. That's a Good Samaritan right twenty name hospitals does after this Guy Yeah. It's pretty cool but notice that he's not worried about being unclean. He can skip hip going to temple if he needs to because this guy might need his help and then Jesus pauses basis. I think there was some dramatic effect here. I think he just was like now. Which of these three do think was a neighbor to the man who fell in the hands of the robbers and you know he's going to answer right now. He does the expert in the law the expert in the law aw replied the one who had mercy on him one who had mercy on C. Does I think a lot of times. We know the rules come to church. You read Your Bible. You get baptized. Take Him Union you. You know you don't smoke and you don't chew and you don't bill with the girls that do right. We know those rules and some of us are really good at the Old Testament stuff right. We know a lot of the six hundred thirteen laws that are found in the Old Testament and we're on them right. There's nothing wrong with that. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with any of that but Jesus seems to open a door here and say those things are important to us but are we willing to set them aside to love our neighbor which is of greater honor and seems to bring us to worship in a way that ritual rookie ping limits us guys tracking with me. I think the cool part of what Jesus did when he opened this up he said the law was to show us how to get to loving our neighbor and then if we love our neighbor all of that worship and rule keeping we'll take care of itself. You want to do those things because it's going to help you. Love your neighbor now see orange shirts and here. I don't mind because my mom would've yelled at me for no seriously. I don't have mine on on because it's in the car. I work yesterday probably stinks just a little bit so didn't WanNa grocery guys out. We've taken a pause so if you come here on a regular or you have come here on regular basis or is this a Sunday you like Oh. This is different some going on differently yeah. It is where a a lot of are over at the popular festivals about ten people were probably more than that over the popcorn festival already and they're going through to the vendors and they're praying for them and asking asking if they want breakfast we have been offering the kids area over there right for all day yesterday. We're GONNA do the same today and we're having abbreviate service service so we can free everybody up to go over there to serve in some capacity even if it's going around with some friends and enjoying the popcorn festival. We went courage you do that right. That's what we've done that so when we first started talking about this about do we do know breed service. Do we acknowledge the popcorn festival. How do we do this. My first inclination was dismiss Church School Popcorn for and we had some discussions about it makes sense right make since we started having discussions about it and I was convinced of this but we need to worship. Take a moment and prepare ourselves. I was convinced of that so yeah. That's true we do because serving is worship and when when you serve your drawn to worship they're not ex- mutually exclusive apart from each other. They're together. They come one is when you love your neighbor. You are loving your God yeah so this brings us to our moment of communion and I'm reminded of something that happened yesterday. Some was saying goodbye to a couple of people I was finished with my shift and I was saying goodbye and this guy walks up to. I was staying there and two of us. We're talking in. This guy walks up to me and he says hey man he says where are you guys at Church building. He said Yeah Yeah Yeah. Explain what we were church row over here down sugar town and he goes oh well. That's really cool. I said you're always welcome and thanks a lot. I don't see him. I didn't you see him. Come in this morning. I was kind of hoping that we've been really cool and I stopped just for a moment just paused and said this is why we do this. It's not to get them to church because the next freeze that came out of his mouth was awesome to me. He said what you guys are doing. Here is awesome. Thank you and his kids were out playing in the in the Carnival Games that I just think this we just WanNa serve. Necessarily the calmed arch. If you do that bonus we wanNA love you. We just want to in Kearney Jesus. That's what that is. Incarnation incarnation means to take on the by to be like to embody to like the logical Bible term right means to take on so here's here's my take on communion when I eat that bread and drink that blood or that wine and he says to me do this until I come as a way of acknowledging that word acknowledged to me means in Kearney CT B like whenever never I eat whenever I drink. I'm being asked to become like Christ knowing that I will be limited but I'm going to do my best and so as we eat this morning together. I want you to prepare yourself two incarnation Jesus to love your neighbor as yourself wherever you go this morning because we're giving you space. I used to do that purposefully because a church we believe two incarnate. Jesus to become like him is to be his disciple and that is our ultimate goal and we want to do that with you. It's an adventure did is unbelievable. If you go with us so as you eat this morning take in the body of Christ so that you may become the body of Christ to the world take any this is the body of Christ.

Jesus football rural Baptist Church southern Baptist Church Sandal Tan Church building Church School Siemian Teva Tan Kentucky Levi Luke Luca Samaritan Sean Christian Jerusalem Jericho
REPLAY: Reading the Bible

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey

38:02 min | 1 year ago

REPLAY: Reading the Bible

"Hey guys welcome to the podcast. Happy Monday as you guys know. It is the g Monday now when I think theology. It sounds like we're talking about these kind of AH complicated issues every week but of course we're not. We're a lot of times we're refuting. I'm kind of pseudo Christian. Lie that we've heard in the mainstream and going into God's word and seeing what it actually says sometimes we are talking about more complex subject. Sometimes we're talking about more practical subjects like biblical suffering but in everything. We always go back to the word of God as our supreme authority. And that's really what I want to talk about today. Why Reading the Bible in Knowing Our Bible in knowing gene theology is so important and that doesn't mean that we have to have every question answered about our Eschaton legit not at all points? Of course all of that is very important but it's a process it takes time and it all starts with knowing how to an even why to read the Bible. This is a question that I get a lot especially from people who are just becoming Christians. They just don't know where to start. And if that's you I just want you to know that is the perfect place to be. That's a normal place to be anyone who has ever become a Christian especially people who were not raised in the church have all asked that question. There's not a single person who has become a Christian and set off totally understand this Bible thing totally get Ed's I've got no questions at all makes perfect sense. No we are finite night human beings that means we are limited in our understanding. We only have so much of a capacity to be able to understand complex subjects. But what. I'm here's how you is that you have a much bigger and better capacity to understand the complexities of scripture. Then you think thankfully with the power of the Holy Spirit in the wisdom of God. There's so much that we get to know through the Bible. So if you're intimidated when you are reading the Bible normal if you're confused when you are reading the Bible normal normal if you are scared to open the Bible just because you feel like you don't know anything you don't Wanna ask questions normal. Okay so just take a deep breath understand. Stand that when you're listening to people who you're like. Oh my gosh. I'm never going to know as much. Is this person that I see on instagram. or My friend or my pastor. You don't need to worry worry about that. You don't need to worry about that. What you need to worry about is reading the word of God as much in as well as accurately he as a human being possibly can and that is what we are? That's what we're going to talk about today. We're GonNa talk about some very basic things. Rosser GonNa talk about a about a little but more intricate or complicated things. Depending on how familiar you are with church and with kind of the Christian sphere but I do think for anyone. No matter are where you are in your walk. I think this will be a very important episode. Even if you have been walking with guide a lot longer than I. Have you know the Bible a lot better than I do. I'm sure there are plenty of you out there that that is true of. I still think that this will be an edifying episode for everyone especially if you have friends who are just now learning the Bible for themselves itself. It's a very exciting time by the way if you are becoming a Christian it's so exciting to really discover God's word for the first time so I'm excited for you and you should be except for yourself too. Oh and you should not feel at all bogged down or way down by this task that you have before you have read the Bible this summer. We're going need to cover a lot of theological subjects that are on the more complex side that maybe you wouldn't tackle until you've been following God for a little bit and you start okay. You understand the Gospel and it's not that you move on from the Gospel but you realize that there's a lot there and there's a lot to uncover and there's a lot to unpack. That happens over over time the more that we study the more we the more we know about God the more that we know that we don't know until the questions just kind of multiply the longer that you've known on him which is Great. That's a really fun and exciting thing I think about following God and about reading his word so I wanted to kind of lay this foundation before this summer when we get into those comp a complicated issues about predestination and Tulip calvinism all that good stuff women in the church. Search these very controversial topics. I wanted to kind of lay this foundation before we get into all of that so my personal journey with God if you want to call it that I'm not even sure if that's accurate terminology but my relationship with God. I was raised in a Christian home. Both of my parents were Christians. We went to a southern Baptist church every Sunday but my relationship with him. I didn't start taking the Bible seriously in reading the Bible for myself. Elfin be interested in the Bible until I was probably a junior in high school and I would even say that latter half of my junior year now if I go back and I read the journals that I had when I was like eight or nine years old. I've always kept journals my entire life. I was like ratings scripture and prayers and things like that so it was always something I knew about in Sunday school class and went to a Christian school. It was always something that I was from an academic standpoint intellectual interested in but it wasn't until the latter half of my junior year here I was in a Bible Class In in high school that was very different than any Bible class. That I've taken my teacher was extremely vulnerable in extremely real in authentic about sin struggles and learning God's word. I don't even know where this teacher is now or what he's really like. I don't even really remember much of what we talked about. L. But he really trusted us to be able to study scripture and to talk about it and to explore complicated subjects that we had never explored before and that really started it piqued my interest. I like I remember reading Romans all the way through for the first time my junior year and I was like wow. There's a lot here that I don't know when I've been raised in the Church Church and then we read my senior year of high school We read this book called reason for God by Tim. Keller and I started reading. Cs Lewis Greek divorce mere Christianity she entity and all of a sudden I realized. Oh my gosh. There's so much about God's so much about his word his church that I don't know and this stuff is fascinating to me even just from an intellectual perspective I found it really fascinating and then so that just became a passion of mine and setting. God's word probably starting my senior year of high school a few few other things happen that brought me close to God in understanding the Gospel for probably the first time I started listening to teachers. I started going to a church. That was you. You know my own church. I was able to drive until I didn't go to the same church is my parents anymore. That had a huge profound impact on me and then I went to college with that same aim spirit and then my friends gave me an ESPN Study Bible. That I still use every day now when I was a sophomore and that totally. I don't want to say that totally detained my life too because I was already a Christian but that awakened in even deeper love. I guess for studying scripture and realizing there was so much that I didn't know and then I've talked about before my senior year with through this really hard season where I decided that I was going to have fun as they say I went through a hard break up and I reacted to that break up in a very immature in ungodly way. I decided to fill my life with things that I thought would make me happy. Really what I was seeking during this point in college was wanting to be wanted I felt rejected in so away to feel wanted to feel whole when I was twenty one twenty two years old was drinking was hooking up was going out was getting attention from friends certain things that a Lotta people do all four years of of college even high school. I had a lot of encouragement from people around me that this is what I was supposed to do. and that's not to blame them at all that totally my responsibility but it was fun I was getting attention affirmation. It was awesome but really I was miserable. I was also struggling with an eating disorder disorder and I just remembered this all ties back to what we're talking about. I just remember during this time and mind Gio had been chaplain in my sorority. I had was genuinely eh passionate about the word of God and then I just decided after this break up no no no. I want to numb the pain. How I would've done the pain? I'm GONNA live it up this last semester and I remember trying to pretend like I was following God at the same time like I remember trying to read the Bible. I remember trying to keep up with what we call in. Christians are quiet times. I remember trying to do that and not being able to. I remember trying to open my Bible able trying to journal and I just couldn't. It made me feel physically sick because I knew what I was doing was wrong. It was totally incongruent with the life that God had called told me to. I felt convicted of my sin but instead of turning towards that conviction and repenting I just pushed it down and I closed my Bible and I said you know what I'm I'm not gonNA. I'm not GonNa do this anymore. This hurts too much. It hurts too much to pray at hurts too much to read the Bible. I'm just going to do what I WANNA do. Numb my pain with alcohol with guys with over exercise with not eating enough. And I'M GONNA keep up this image that I think is going to make me happy and whole that didn't work Long Story Short. I ended up in the counselor's office fist. Few months after I graduated from college her telling me if you keep up your eating disorder which at this point had turned into binging and purging. You're going to die and and I I just I didn't know how to I think that probably was the thing that will be up. And then I started reading God's word again again and I started reading the Bible again and allowing my heart to be practice often. I you know after a while of sending you grow callous and you convince yourself that it's fine and you harden your heart as a way to not feel conviction and that's what I had done so. I had painfully go through this process of repentance of allowing God's word to seep into my heart it's deep into my life and remind me just how needy. Im just how simple. I I am just how much I desperately need. God that I'm not self sufficient that I can't do this on my own that the avenues that I pursued to find happiness actually we're going to end in destruction and devastation and that's always what send dies that's that is the game that Satan has been plains. Plains is the very beginning in the garden when he said to Eve did God really say did God really say and he showed her the fruit and the fruit looked good good and instead of telling her the consequences of this he said no no no. Don't worry about it. God's just worried that you're going to be more like him and you'll know the difference between good and evil in. That's what you want. Well that sounded enticing to eve and just like seeing dozen all of our temptations today. He doesn't talk about consequences he talks about how good it's it's going to feel in the moment and you've gave into that I gave in to that and the consequences are always so much worse than the fleeting pleasure that you get from sin and I learned that the hard way I react a lot of regrets in that probably eight month period of rebellion that I have have that I wished that I could take back all because I decided to walk away from the word of God and and because I wouldn't I wouldn't allow conviction. I pushed it down and I became. Alice followed my own way. So if there is one reason and we'll we'll get to all the reasons but if there's one reason to stay in God's word it is to remain it is to remain convicted of your percen to remain in obedience to God and to avoid the pain and devastation. That inevitably comes along with following yourself and your flesh and your desires. I can tell you from experience. It is not worth it so listen to me when I say that you might not know that about me. People who have been you're listening to this podcast from the very beginning have heard me give the story before I have not always in every stage of my life. been this on on fire for Christ reading the Bible everyday girl. No I went through a period where I rebelled and I'm thankful for the grace of God and the wisdom that he gives us in his word so that is why this subject is so important to me because I want something different for you and if you've already been there like I have no that there's grace for you know that there is forgiveness for you and there's wisdom for you in there is goodness for you found in the word of God so Let's talk about. Let's talk about the reasons why the reasons why we need to study scripture. In addition to the reasons that I just gave you So Psalm one. Nineteen is an amazing passage. We see how passionate a David is about God's law at about his promises how eager David is to follow them into hold onto them. I'm here are verses nine through sixteen in this particular chapter how can a young man keep his way pure by guarded according to your word with my whole heart ICQ. Let me not wander from Your Commandments. I have stored up your word in my heart that I might not send against you. Blessed Are you Lord. Teach me your statutes with My Lips. oops I declare all the rules of your mouth. In the way of your testimonies. I delight as much as in all riches I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways I will delight in your statutes will not forget your word There are a lot of reasons to study the Bible in to rejoice in the intimacy that we gain With God through studying the Bible and the first and foremost reason Easter no god is to know God and his ways. The Bible is filled with passages about God revealing himself to his people showing him his strength his faithfulness his goodness revealing his will in his word. And in God's sovereignty not he has chosen to reveal himself to us through his written word in the Bible Assam. twenty-five four says make me to know your ways oh Lord teach me or paths Offs Psalm. One Nine thousand nine twenty five says I am your servant. Give me understanding. The I may know your testimonies. Jesus prays to the Father in John. Seventeen Seventeen Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth so those who are in Christ gained intimacy with God of the universe by understanding in H- that The truth that he gives us in scripture. It is a privilege for us to get to know the god of the universe through his word and the word that he purposely left for us there are a lot of other reasons that all kind of fall under that umbrella to read God's word in that he's always going to be the main one to know God in his ways and in knowing God in his ways out we gain a lot of other benefits we gain wisdom and discernment for how to Live How to navigate the beginning of the rough waters of life. We're giving direction. We are offered perspective for how to see what's happening in the world. What's going to happen in the future were given in a framework for righteousness that applies to our own lives but also applies to the public sphere like the government? We are able to better understand how to love and to serve other people we are shown are saying our neediness of God. We are convicted of our wrongdoing. We are called to repentance. We are comforted comforted by the reminders of God's faithfulness we are also able to distinguish through God's word between what is true and what is false false teaching and the true through word of God Reading the Bible as it draws us closer to God gives us wisdom also sanctifies us as that passage says that we read in John. Seventeen meaning the as we conform to God's will become more like Christ more liked who God has called us to be as second timothy three sixteen through seventeen says all all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and for training and righteousness that the man of God may be complete fleet equipped for every good work so it's useful for teaching for reproof for correction to train us to become righteous that we in God might be complete that we might be ready prepared equipped for every good work that he has prepared for us. As to says there are many people unfortunately who will tell you that. Reading God's Word is secondary or even sharee in your relationship with him that knowing scripture sure. Is it really all that important. Compared to what these people would call your personal relationship with Hindi kind of separate these two things where they say that God may say that he doesn't say God may say things to you that he doesn't say in his word he might reveal things to you that are specific for you. He might give you feelings leans that you can actually find in the Bible. That's what these people will say. It's Hogwash it's total total deception This is not to say that God won't convict you as you are praying. God Won't press something into your mind or heart. Every conviction every connection every direction he gives will be imperfect perfect alignment with what he says in scripture because he does not change he will not give you something that contradict scripture goes outside the bounds of scripture or is contrary to his character. It's very sad to me When people say what I hear people say that God's Word is delimiting that we need to go beyond it because what it tells me is that they have not spit very much time studying it? Anyone who says that God's word restricts their relationship with God puts limitations on their relationship with God has not read the word of God I guarantee you. They don't know much about the word of God. God chances are they read something at one point that they don't like or didn't understand. They decided. Okay I don't I don't really need this. This is too confusing for me This person tends is to view scripture as a static collection of ancient writings serve as a very small supplement to your faith but really shouldn't be used as the foundation for your your faith but that is not a correct way to look at scripture as that verse in Second Timothy that we read says that God's Word is breathed out by in God as we've said does not change therefore his word does not change it is applicable today right now it is static in the sense that it does it change depending on her mood or on our culture or a trend but it's also dynamic in the sense that it is not stuck in the past but ever applicable to the right. Now you may say well Allie. What about what about all the people who can't read the Bible or who? Maybe don't have a Bible with them but they are. Christians is can they not have a relationship with God into that I would say of course they can't God in his sovereignty Cayenne. He has the power to accommodate himself to anyone and draw Someone's heart to himself through whatever means necessary but but again this means these means that he uses in this revelation of who he is in his Gospel will not and cannot be incongruent to what he word or with what his word says. Jesus says us his word is true. God's Word is Truth Second Timothy says his word is useful is profitable for everything and it is breathed out by God Psalm Psalm. One nineteen th speaks to how vital God's word is in our lives. There is a branch of Christianity That really wants to when Eastern mysticism with Christianity and rejected the importance of knowing the Bible so they seek to have you know certain kinds of energies or fee elite to have special revelations that claim from guide that are not actually found in the Bible. You'll hear them using all of this kind of like new age terminology. Erm Analogy that God wants to give you some kind of special gift just for you in the moment. What can you tell me where you find that in scripture Upbeat aware of this. Be Wary This doesn't negate the power of the Holy Spirit. I'm not negating the power of the Holy Spirit on the contrary the Holy Spirit need a works in our hearts through the truth revealed in God's word to empower us to encourage us to convict us to draw us to God himself through Christ I calls on the Holy Spirit the guarantee of our inheritance That word for guarantee can also be translated as a down payment so it is a guarantee guarantee of our salvation. The Holy Spirit is very important but again this is not some cereal feeling by which we can justify contradicting the word of God. Here's what happens when we try to separate the Holy Spirit from God's Word we end up mistaking our feelings for the Holy Spirit. So let me repeat that when we try to separate the Holy Spirit from God's Word we ended up mistaking our feelings for the Holy Spirit so we begin following our our personal convictions and we say that we are following got. I remember a conversation that I had with a friend in college and this was before my own rebellious period. Where I basically did the same thing but I remember her telling me that she didn't feel bad for dating this guy who wasn't a Christian because she didn't feel convicted about it it so that must mean of course she thought that the Holy Spirit is telling her that this is okay I like? I said I've done this too. That's what happens when we I think that the Holy Spirit is separate from or different than who God has revealed himself to be in his word and that the Holy Spirit must just have different desires than what God has outlasted outlasted his word and that my friends leads us to sin. We follow our hearts which the Bible tells us are desperately desperately wicked. They're not worth following. I that's that's what happens. So that's what happens when we tried to say that this spirit spirit or our feelings are more important or lead US rather than what scripture says so the word of God is crucial. I've said it before and I will stayed again. It is impossible to know God intimately without knowing God accurately it is impossible to know God intimately without Out Knowing God accurately now this does not mean that we know everything about him at all times. That's impossible for us. This doesn't mean that we can't have any confusion or have any misunderstandings we do. Because we're finite but if we follow a God whose character is reflective of our own imagination rather than reflective of who who. He says he is in scripture. That we do not follow God at all We follow ourselves and we justify this self worship with a form of pseudo. Oh Christianity that does not equal salvation so reading studying in knowing our bibles so that we can know Oh God and who he truly is is vital now. There are many right ways to read the Bible and there are many wrong on ways to read the Bible in within the right ways to read it. There are different approaches that are taken based on preference so not. Everyone has to read the Bible. The the exact same way for it to be correct as long as how you are reading the Bible falls under the umbrella of the correct approach and there is a correct approach. So some of you might say no. Allie you're being legalistic. There is no wrong way to read the Bible. Who are you to tell me how to read the Bible? Well if you want to know how bad theology Oh gee happens how people become completely lost and confused with their own brand of Christianity that doesn't even reflect the gospel revealed to scripture it. Is this a poor reading of the text. A poor reading of the Bible so here just a few of the ways that people read the Bible incorrectly on number one. This is probably the biggest one. They D- contextualized versus taking out of context in order to apply it to a situation or an idea in a way. That suits what you want. That's I mean uh also few great examples of this that most of us have probably heard if we grew up in the church. You've heard Philippians four thirteen. I can do all things through Christ strengthens me Psalm. Thirty seven four delight yourself Lord and he will give you the desires of your Heart Jeremiah. Twenty nine eleven for a no the plans I have for you declares the Lord plans to prosper you and not to harm you plans to give you hope and a future nats you seven one the judge not lest you be judged these are all awesome versus. I'm not I'm not at all hating on these versus. They're awesome verses but so often they're taken out of context to mean something that they don't me and the list goes on and on versus that people will extract from the surrounding versus in say. This verse means what I wanted to me in this situation. Typically the reason people do this. We've all done this at some point in our lives but the reason people decontextualize versus is to make them feel better to stroke their own ego to justify your decision. They've made or to win an argument rather than asking the question. What does this mean so many people find themselves asking? What does is this? I mean to me. Well that's not how the word of God works scripture means something not something to you or to me it means something. I now how we apply take comfort in what a Bible Verse Means Might Vary depending on our circumstances but we do not change the meaning of the text to fit into what we want and we will get into how to discern the meaning of the text in just a minute so another way that people read the Bible incorrectly goes along with a first and that is to insert themselves into the text where they do not belong. This again goes back to the question that people Aronie Asli often ask themselves when they're reading the Bible and that is that is. What does this passage mean to me? They ask how can I insert myself into this story and again this is typically about ego about getting something from God They want about justifying idea or decision that they've made so you see this ally in a story like David and Goliath that I'm going to S- might this giant before Armie just like David did well. No you're not necessarily because you're not David in this story. It might not work out like that. The better way to look at this passage is to ask ourselves. What does this mean and what does this say about the Holy God of the universe if you constantly insert yourself into the Bible and into the stories of Biblical characters as a way of determining how your life is going to work out? You are going to end up severely disappointed. And you're going to find yourself questioning questioning the faithfulness of God while the problem is not with God. It is with you similar to the Prosperity Gospel when things don't workout When things don't win God does it? Provide for us how we think that we deserved once. We pray more and do more in earn more. In God's still doesn't deliver in the way that we want him him to. We ended up very disappointed. Our faith falters. Well that's because that's not what the word of God says. It's the same thing when you try to insert yourself into a story where you do not exist. Another way that people read the Bible incorrectly goes along with the first as well and that is opening the Bible to a random passage and assuming that whatever verse you landed on is a sign from God. No I remember in middle school. The first time that I heard a pastor say this was wrong and that was like Oh shoot like my twelve year old self probably thought that it was like. That's exactly what I was supposed to do to read the Bible but I remember him saying this and it still true today that is called mysticism that is called putting the larger God to the test which we are or not call to do our which we are actually specifically told not to do. Now you can. Of course pray for wisdom as you read the Bible and we'll talk about that we should be praying for wisdom but opening up up to a random verse putting your finger on it and assume that that is God's special word for you for today is not a correct way to read the Bible. So here is how we read the Bible. This is the systematic way to read the Bible. The most important thing and like I said fear our preferences within this that are that are personal but they fall under a proper reading of the text context context is key. You want to know the context of what you're reading. If you've never read the Bible I always advise starting out with the book of John. It is one of the Gospels it's one of the Gospels. astles are extremely clear passages about who Jesus as in his work on the Cross and then I would read the epistles and again in all of this. You're looking while I'll give you the context thing later. I shouldn't have said that I I'll get to the context thing later but so start with John. That's what I would start with that I would read through the epistles I would read through. Romans Corinthians you know all of the epistles you can just go in order these will tell you what it looks like to live a godly life. According to God's own word if you go to the Old Testament you start in genesis genesis as one of my favorite books of the Bible. It's just genuinely interesting. When you read through genesis you you will find things that you just didn't know where there it's just a good story? That is true by the way so I recommend going slowly especially in the New Testament. This is not a race. This is not about quantity of steady always about quality. I it is about understanding so first before you read you. Pray pray to God for wisdom you pray for understanding you pray that you would be able to grasp the tax and then you would comprehend what is being said then you read. It's okay if there are things as you read that you don't understand you mark them no question that you have especially when you're starting now it's stupid asked the question. There's no judging meal. You're not getting graded on this personally. If you're starting to John for example I would read a whole chapter. Just read the whole chapter through. You don't have to worry about doubt if there are things that trip you up. Read the chapter in go back and take one two three verses in really studied them. That's what I do because I like studying in small chunks better than a large chunks because I get distracted gets too overwhelming and then you just get frustrated so take a really small trunk. Even if it's just one verse but you can take you know three versus versus however much you can handle in really steady what they mean so of those few verses the questions to ask yourself and of course if you're staying in one book for a long period of time time you don't have to ask these particular questions every time but here questions to ask yourself as you're starting now. who was writing this win? Is it being written. To whom mm-hmm is it being written in. Why is it being written? So it's also important to ask is a literary device being used as a metaphor. Is this a particular color reference that I don't understand because it's a cultural reference. If you have a study Bible I personally recommend. Es View Set Bible. I find it to be extremely really reliable and thorough in good I like the ESP version of the Bible as well. So I would purchase if you don't have an ESP study Bible. I would highly recommend is it is going to contain these answers. Frio of who is writing this wire. They writing this. What's the context? The historical context the cultural context at the beginning of every book. It's going to answer through those historical questions for you. So you don't have to go to the library and figure that out or even Google it's going to give you that context which is really important and then you're going to ask. Okay what does this verse say something that I like to do. And this is where the preference comes in. I like to ride out the verse and then or rebuilt the verses and and pick out the words that are most significant or words that I'm not really sure what they mean and then I so I picked however many words like five of the main words that are in in this and then next to them irate synonyms that I know were synonyms to this word. Now this is not me saying. This is my interpretation of the Bible but for me a finite individual Wohl who is trying to understand scripture. It helps me if I can say okay. This also means this. Okay now this is starting to make sense to me. I see what he is saying. It also helps. If you have like an original Greek and Hebrew Bible I do. It has references in the back of the Bible. That will tell you the original Greek for particular Sir words until you can really see what the original word wise in what the definition of that word is and what the original translation is if you WanNa do that obviously obviously that's not always some people would say that that's necessary every time. I'm not sure that necessarily every time as long as you are not just using your subjective interpretation. So you'll ask what does it say. And then you'll ask what does this mean. Or what does this reveal about the character of God and then there is an application part of this. Does this say something about sin. Does this say something about something I need to be doing. Do I have something to repent from doing something to start doing to change to stop. Stop doing how do I use this to be more obedient to God. So how do I understand. God more how do I apply this to my life so I am more obedient obedient to God in. What does this say about God? And also what does this say about in reference to me and that is not pleasing yourself in the center of the text next but that is applying the truth of God's word to your life into your heart. I also write out the questions that I have. I have a lot of questions. When I'm reading the Bible even passages that I've read a million times questions about them so if it seems to me like a passage that I'm reading contradict something else that I've read I look at the footnotes and I say okay might get into strong. What is this person? Say Footnote or not inherent by the way. They're not in air. They are not themselves the word of God but they can be good direction from people who have been studying this longer than we have so I look at the footnotes. I go to the verse. That seems to contradict it. So for example. If you are in Romans and you're reading that we are justified by faith and not by works but you remember that you read in James that were justified by works and not by faith alone. Then you might have a question about the contradict about the contradiction there. So I'd go to James as well and I would would read the footnotes there and then I would say okay. How do I reconcile these things? I can't throw one verse out in favor of the other. That's not good theology I looked to scripture. I looked to God's word to reconcile what I feel like is a contradiction in always fall back on my own misunderstanding standing in my finite nature rather than on in untrustworthiness of God's word in so truth can be reconciled with more truth. Not with your feelings leads not by throwing one thing out in favor of the other not saying that you are sovereign. God must have just made some kind of confusing air. No I go back on okay. I must not understand San this. I need to pray for wisdom. I need to go more deeply into God's word to understand how to reconcile these two things to realize that they're both true and they cannot contradict each other. Then you pray again you pray for wisdom for obedience to be conformed likeness of Christ a you. Think God for his word you ask for God's will to be done you ask for provision you ask for strength to resist sin. Do this for twenty to thirty minutes every day of the week that you can. Also there is is a resource that I used systematic theology by Wayne Gruesome. It's a really good book to and again. Commentaries are not inherent they are not themselves the word of God but these people have taken get a lot of time to study. God's word into tell you what God's word says about certain subjects that you might be confused about so when I have questions about eschaton questions about predestination sure when I've questioned about prayer whatever. It is systematic theology by Wayne Gruden as a really good resource for that that will say okay. Well here's what God's Word says about this it's also so a really good way not systematic theology. The word of God. It's a really. It's a really good idea. In fact I would say it's necessary when you're listening instinct. Teachers Have God's Word or when you're listening to passers that you like to ask yourself OK. Does this align with what God's word says and it's it's also good to ask yourself. Does what this pastor teacher is telling me does it give me glory or mandatory or does it give God glory does it rely on God's sovereignty he his provision or does this seem to glorify me into rely on me and if that's the case go to the word of God and see what the word of God sets because like I've said many times One way to I think ask yourself about your own. Theology is due in my believing things glorify myself rather than glorify God am. I becoming lasted God becoming more or is it the opposite. So that's it. I hope that the good primer for you guys for understanding the word you've got of course as always there are so many more things we can talk about. If you've got any questions about that or pointers or corrections of course feel free to email me if you love This podcast I would love for you to give me a five star review on itunes. It means a lot to me. I read those reviews and be sure to subscribe to the alley. Beth's it's duckie channel on Youtube if you haven't already and I'll see you guys on Wednesday.

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A Table for Misfits with Gabriel Gordon

Come to the Table

1:19:57 hr | 9 months ago

A Table for Misfits with Gabriel Gordon

"We had an eastern Orthodox speaker talking about Ego Theology. He had a Roman Catholic speaker. We had a southern Baptist Speaker whose Church Planning Professors missionary over in Asia. For over twenty years and then we had a worshiping component to it and so we had quakers a nondenominational charismatic Presbyterian. Pc USA NPA. And so we had all these different denominations show up from really wide. Unbrella. And I think it was a really positive experience. Nobody bit each other's heads off. It was just a really good experience. And so that's what we're going to try to continue this next year secured Keith Giles. And were we've got a guy named Jason Bobo who's a local pastor here in Tulsa. Pca All that to say that's my story. That's kind of how I went through deconstruction and then how that ended up leading to the Misfits Theology Club. A love and action is listening to understand not to react all are welcome to come to the table and are welcome to listen and God bless everyone. Welcome to another sort of the come to the table. Podcast is your host Sean McCoy. In this week I'm sitting down with. Gabriel Gordon have conversation. There was inspired by a couple of emails in a facebook post and so how I met him was keep giles old guest of ours a- person whose book I've read three of his four I've been seminal books in in my personal life especially the last year year and a half and also been gracious for him to come on the podcast admit so nice to get to know him personal level so he was on a facebook post and what he's Christian groups and it was like what what conference are you going to. There's a spark Christian conference sparked Christian podcast and conference my friend. Missy Phillips is doing that might be a part of here in February here in Houston which will probably be either happening or done by the time. This comes out but at the same time Keith wrote in there that there was a misfits theology conference and I thought okay. Well what is what is that right and so I knew the spark one. But what about the was this misfits? One inside looked Do Gold all that kind of gets to do the Google search and Google stock found. It looked and there was a bunch of information for two hundred nineteen of course twenty twenty s coming up at the time especially now that we're there so I sent off in the contact form. Hey I just would love to know because there's some people like Brad you're sack and of course keeps going to go in other people like that and I thought well. Where's this going to be in what's going on there? Get this email back. From Gabriel Saint. Hey things are reaching out la La L. by the way I'd love to come on your podcast and talk about it. That was something you'd like to do. Well folks yes so not only that Knowing the core reason but a look through the website has got to see what they were doing. I listened to their podcast and stuff like that. I just thought wow. There's a lot more meat on this bone than just than just having a nice conversation about an upcoming conference in so unbeknowst Gabriel. I'm GonNa play something real quick so if you go to their website. There's an intro video so if you want to understand a little bit about. Gabriel a little bit about the Misfits Theology Club. I thought I would play their intro video for you guys and gals out there to listen to as a kind of to introduce a to have him talk before you actually get to talk so because I just think he does a great job at telling what is it so here. It is their intro video. You may be wondering what is the Knicks Physiology Club. Well the great thing about misfits is that depending on which one of us you ask to explain who we are. It'll be from a different perspective. And that's a beautiful thing because it means we all share the vision. We're a blog of Christians from various denominations and traditions from eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic the Protestant all striving although in perfectly to live you now. Jesus vision of Unity for his church and yet it's not a unity we fully obtain Suna Fijian's I think there's a phrase sums it up really well until we all reach the unity of the faith so while as the body of Christ we embody Jesus's vision of unity here. Now it's still yet to come. And there's another passage recorded in the gospel of John. Where Jesus says to his disciples a new commandment I give you that. You would love one another in the same way that I have loved you. And by this love the world will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another. The inverse of this is that if we don't have love for one another the world won't know that we're his disciples love unity go hand in hand and unfortunately it doesn't take long to look around and see that the church hasn't done a good job at this. We think that to love accept and work with someone we disagree with is equivalent to the same thing saying hey. I believe the same thing is you know. Jesus never called us the uniformity. He called us to unity. And those aren't the same thing. Do you know what the number one human drivers it's to belong and it seems to me that this is part of what it means to be made in the image of. God is this Dr to belong and if this is the case then the number one sin that we can commit is to reject that drive to belong. God desires to be accepted and to belong among God's creation and who would have guessed it were made in the image. So if you're a follower of Jesus or just intrigued by Jesus in you're interested in this unity and having a conversation rather than a heated debate then come check us out. We'd love to include you in the conversation. And maybe just maybe you're also a mistake. So you know our podcast. You know what we've been doing. You might get a good indication as to why that particular video in the way that Gabriel so eloquently. Put all that stuff that we might want to have a conversation with him. Outside of just is upcoming conference because we as. I was talking to him before decide. Think there's a lot of synergy there. I think there's a lot of interesting. Conversations are so many places we can go. Deconstruction is a big part of the Christian language. Now a lot of podcasts. He's had on if you like. That are things that I personally going through so I don't want to try very hard to these podcasts. About me personally but I would say that somebody who's going through these. The this journey faith journey of understanding things all the different things that are all the different inputs Out there because it's not a unified message but the idea is to have unity and where what what does that look like. Does it mean that. We're all one way. Yeah I agree. I don't think so. But what does it look like? We have this hodgepodge mess of things and people and opinions and things of that nature and so and so without further Ado Gabriel thank you so much. You're taking the time to accept invites. Come to the table. Thanks so much Sean. For having me on the podcast I really appreciate it. No Problem Bro. All right so as I mentioned is the way we like to get. Things started in this neck of the woods. Start out with some. Would you rather questions and so you get to pick a number one through two thousand nine hundred ninety three so any reason for that number Sierra my birth or you go all right so there? What does the math and realize that yes? He is one of the younger guys in world. But I think you'll find out real quick. That don't mean much. All right here we go. Would you rather always hope for the best or prepare for the worst? I'd like to say I'm an optimist but I feel like as I've gotten older a little bit more of a pessimist I I'm going to say I'd probably when a realistically I probably want to prepare for the worst. Are you like that kind of preparation? Those paper yeah no more like I'm writing a blog post and I'm preparing for the criticisms. I'm going to get as I'm writing the blog posts. Gotcha against well. It's it's Kinda like that was one of the modern day lessons or modern day. Things people say is don't don't read the comments like this. It's kind of like a little bit where it's coming. Which is I just. Don't read them. Then you get it in there and you're off and running are good so you get to more speak another number one. Three two thousand three three any reason for three The Trinity I go. Would you rather be an angel on your shoulder or a devil on your enemies shoulder? I think an angel on my friend's shoulder in reason. Why do you have a friend that you're thinking about? I think I was thinking about best friend. Cole who happens to be a Texan Electricity she lives with us. But I don't think I I think I'm too nice to WanNa be a devil. Lana what am I? Envy shoulders. All right one more than we'll do our standard three. Let's go with seven all right seven. I gotta ask any anything on seven or is that just too. I recently got back from Israel and I got celebrate Al Shabaab dinner so the Sabbath seventh day or we may have to time. We dive into that for just a second hear about that. Yeah so I went to Israel back in June for the first time with an organization called passages which is kind of like a tablet birthright accept. It brings young Christian leaders from university's graduate schools to Israel. There's a archaeological component you around some of the archaeological sites and then there's also a modern Israeli Palestinian conflict component to it where you hear. Lots of speakers talked about the conflict from multiple perspectives. And so I went back as a ended up applying for becoming a fellow which basically means I was leading one of the buses going over there and so ended up being a fellow going back. This last December had the opportunity to go back in lead and actually the bus that I was leading I think the reform students on the bus most of them were from Harvard. Business School and all of them except one were lds and so that was a fun experience so LDS. Harvard Business School in Israel doing doing pilgrimage being. That's you're letting you're leading in having your background. Well that's sounds amazing so I have to ask dinner standpoint of that. Entire Experience Ozzy in the spirit of what we're doing here and the audio you hear. I mean I hear this now of course more and more but I always have around what it means to sit at a table and bread and have a celebrate and have something else that sorta fees going on whether elements of what experienced that. We're kind of like these eye-popping moments because God wing searches epiphany that you had as part of that process that you weren't expecting. I don't think so in particular when I was eighteen. I found out I didn't grow up with my father was eighteen. Found out that my dad's family's Jewish and since then I've kind of had an. I've talked to other friends that are of mixed ethnicities and there since I was eighteen. There's been kind of this identity crisis in my Jewish my not and so being at the Chabad dinner the first time I went to Israel but also the second time with Jewish people Practicing Jews at that was a kind of surreal experience where I felt. I don't WanNa say this might be hyperbolic but I felt like was kind of coming home if that makes sense I yeah so that's kind of what my experience was like. I wonder because it's it's I don't know if this is a program that way my my whole life but going over to England the UK a Scotland. One of his airland. But Sean Michael McCoy told my whole life that I was Irish and Scottish and all this other stuff and music and culture kinda resonates certain areas in certain areas. Don't but I don't know if it's because that area come back coming home where you feel. You feel like these people so does that. Yeah I get I get that a lot that makes sense all right so we have to ask the question. I would love to me. That sounds like we could have the conversation about that. But all right number seven. Would you rather think with your right brain or left bring remind me less brain is analytical and right rain is artsy right? I believe so. I'm going to stay with the left brain so you won't WanNa be critical. Yeah already so why? Critical versus artsy. So I don't know if that's you know I. I grew up low income and I felt I feel like growing up. I wasn't very cultured. I just don't like art typically. It's just not my thing does not grind my gears. I I like renaissance art or like Greco Roman art. But even then I'm not going to go to a museum in checkout statues and stuff so I've just not I'm I'm not artsy at all. I have a lot of friends that are artsy and just feel really uncultured. But so I just prefer to stay out of that side of the brain. Gotcha Gotcha well. It's all right again. That seems so. Do we have a? We'll maybe impact that and a little bit but to our standard three questions and again you answer these however you want but the first one is what do you believe in Jesus elaborate so I actually ago about it this way. I posted on facebook recently. An altered text of Matthew. Twenty eight verse. I think nineteen where it says all authority earn await Jesus came to his disciples and basically says all authority in Heaven and earth has been given to me. I altered the tax to where it said. All Authority in Heaven Earth has been given to the Scriptures and my point in that text. I was trying to get people to look at the text critically in realize that. Oftentimes they're theology would better translate or have the tech say Authority in Heaven and earth has been given to the scriptures and my whole point in that was to point out the idolatry that a lot of Christians have and so I was my father in law who is more of a fundamentalist tradition Texted me later that night he saw when my responses and was really just kind of upset with going about that in what I tried to come across to him is that to me. It's not about the Bible. My face my face is about. Jesus Jesus Jesus the Bible's Great. There are other things in my faith that are great ultimately for me. It's all about trying to live a life that's modelled. After the teachings of Jesus are into the second one is what faith other than your own has had the biggest impact on you good or bad. Judaism and I would say good one site. We've had mentioned that we both are Peter end fans he kind of introduced me to James. Coup goal and Benjamin Som- nerd some other Jewish Biblical scholars and I started reading Abraham Joshua Hassle. So there's been a lot of Jewish Scholars that have really been influential in a positive way on my face. The last one is what do you think is the biggest issue that the church faces today? Disunity did you expect that answer. Yeah of course definitely so and this is this is probably a great segue into a lot of those questions we disaster and what we're talking about is really in the spirit of this continued journey of understanding really. I think it's GonNa understanding and completing the picture or even making the picture clear or you want to put. That is kind of how I've come down to it around the Gospel message around who Jesus is around what we're supposed to do. Where what role does the Bible play and that that really is at the essence of in. It's in it's not even that that's an issue is with that some of that lack of clarity in some of these stances or you are it. Creates this disunity. Which seems instead of it being this great unifier. Is this great divider. It's it becomes galvanized polarized toward you have. I mean you look at the history history. You just reduce my whole life because you have to go very far to look in Christians. Killing Christians for the sake of interpretation right is is is in the words. I think in my friend Janet Williams and the on the nomad podcast and she said which caused for regret which was really really nice. You know British way of saying it was awful so so maybe Kinda because you mentioned you grew up. Southern Baptists was what you'd mentioned in and looking at what we say Southern Baptist. Even most recently I've come across uneven packing exactly what that has meant. I kind of knew Ruben. This album didn't understand. History will enough but maybe give us a little bit of idea about you personally. Some that you're talking about and then when it went from I don't know call it fundamentalism. But when it went from the tradition however you grew up and then what were some of the catalyst that Kinda got you to see? I'd rather be unification that I would be quote unquote right about this particular passage this particular cultural interpretation or do you want to call it around around the Bible. Jesus and stuff like that like I had mentioned. I am originally from the North West. I was born in King County Washington. Which is the same county. Seattle and my grandparents from my mother's side. Were actually assembly of God. Missionaries were my grandmother and my aunt. Not Side of the family grew up in Japan and Thailand when they were growing up and they ended up moving back to the states in the early nineties towards in their high school. Time and my mom ended up working at. I'm trying to remember the name of the grocery store it's important but to FC. In Capitol Hill in Seattle which is like the homosexual community in Seattle earth. Always been kind of known for the homosexual community in Seattle even back before the last twenty years or so. The gay rights have kind of taken off but they met there and My Dad's side of the family is ethnically half half Jewish. His mom's Jewish data Jewish. But none of them are practicing Jews. None of them were raised culturally. Jewish as well. That's another story. But they kind of leaned agnostic or kind of west coast spirituality and so I actually was. My Dad was kinda taken out of the picture when I was about to and so I did not grow up with my father when I was three. My grandparents started to move back to Bangkok and my mother IRA living with them and so we ended up moving to Bangkok with them when I was three years old and Bangkok's city of fifteen million big cities in the US even New York you know. I think it's nine million people so it's Big Cities till you go to Asia and so I was there for the first two and half years of my life and I remember that time in Thailand asking questions about biblical stories because my grandparents would share stories like Noah's Ark and those sorts of things. I remember from a young age asking a lot of questions. I think that has always been in my nature at the age of five. My Mom got into Raimo Bible College which is kind of a Pentecostal Charismatic Prosperity Gospel Church in Broken Arrow Oklahoma in. So that's how we don't have any family in Oklahoma but we ended up moving to Oklahoma because of that I ended up becoming a Christian while we were there. I remember the preacher's daughter Was kind of sharing the Gospel. And Lord knows you know what twenty six-year-old gave right now would think about her theology. I don't I don't remember what she was presented by. Just remember feeling drawn by the Holy Spirit. I think God's grace her mates olive reality and is not stopped by bad theology so whatever her theology was I was feeling drawn to the spirit into Jesus and So I in in that tradition. You know you become saved by saying a prayer so I said like six prayers and eventually someone realized I had kept coming back for prayers and they were like you only have to do it once. But I- I mean my life was in some ways dramatic even before then because they grew up with my father but shortly after that While we were still at Raimo my mother got a new boyfriend. He sexually molested me and my mother started physically abuse me. Dhs Child Protective Services got wind of this and about the age of nine. The State had taken me away from my mother and that brings me back to a couple about a year or two before. This has happened. My grandmother had moved to Oklahoma because her husband at the time my grandfather. Who was the missionary lefter for Thai prostitute? And so she threw a very bad situation. HAPPENED TO BE IN. Oklahoma and I got to go into foster care with under her care. She ended up adopted me later but so I really grew up angry at God for a while and I remember there a short season in my life in the third grade that I would have considered by cell phone atheist. I know that you know. Third Grade Atheist. maybe a very intellectual atheists but going on after this about the age of thirteen. My grandma lost. I don't know if you remember you're in Texas so I think Albertson's left Oklahoma and Texas. Kinda went out of business back in two thousand seven something like that so I was about thirteen at the time and my grandmother was working there and she lost her job and so we moved to government housing and I was a a wigger. WanNa be Black Guide and so I actually moved to the hood. I was living in broken Arrow which I was in a trailer park but it wasn't like the ghetto Moved to the hood and just like got picked on and I do not want to dress like this anymore. Because it's not working for me but anyway Salah we were there. I ended up. We started going to a church called victory here in Tulsa. Which is another mega church. That is also kind of charismatic. Non-denominational Prosperity Gospel. But while we were there. I remember getting baptized. Anti start walking up to the baptistery in some douchebag comes up behind me impresses hands like the palm of his hands up against my back and pushes me into the street so I get out kind of irritated and I look over to grandma and I said grandma who the heck pushed me into the water and she said nobody was standing behind. You let you interpret that how you want but around. The same time I ended up was we were in our apartment and my grandmother was in the other room and I was kinda starting to get sleepy and fall asleep and I heard the voice of audibly speak to me and say Gabriel and at this point I'd growing up in a Christian missionary home. I knew some of the biblical stories and this reminded me. Sanyal in ally as God's call now to me and so I told my grandma Angie was like ally. She said we'll go back. Tell your servants listening in so I did. I proceeded to fall asleep shortly. After this about a year of being in Tulsa which were the where we had moved from broken Arrow we ended up getting an opportunity moved to South Dakota to a town of fourteen hundred people and while we were there I started smoking weed which I don't smoke weed necessarily the worst thing but I just I was using it as a way to self medicate childhood trauma and I was a nerdy continuity. I would say I was maybe not nerdy but super weird kid. I was trying to get laid and I was really stupid. Fourteen year old like who? Who's not a stupid fourteen year old? You know guilty and so we were there for about a year. Loved it in a lot of ways. I really got into into the West which was a series six miniseries on TNT with Steven Spielberg. If you it's great So I tried to build a teepee where we were living Abbada I wanted to buy a bison hide I was really into device at this point but I ended up moving to after being there for year. We ended up moving back to Bangkok Thai prostitute. Kind of left my grandmother or grandfather so he kinda invited us to move back there so we did ended up being really terrible in some ways but long story short. I kind of started coming back to the faith we started gathering with a southern Baptist Church and so this is how I went from assembly of God. Pentecostal TO SOUTHERN BAPTISTS. And the pastor and the youth pastor there important to me and I at this point a fifteen years old. I suppose be a sophomore in high. School didn't go to school for the in Bangkok because my grandfather was too cheap to pay for it and I had the reading level of a twelve year old as sophomore on highs or so sixth grade reading level and I didn't really read at this point in my youth pastor really poured like I said poured into me encourage me to start reading. He gave me history books which I love history and I was pretty hefty. At this point I was about two hundred thirty nine pounds when I was about five foot. Five until he encouraged me to start to eat healthy and exercise and so I started losing weight in my life was Kinda turning around at this point and we ended up leaving Bangkok after year. My grandfather ended up marrying a Filipino woman. And so he kind of kicked us out and so we move to back to Tulsa and while we were there we We moved into a single woman's a single women's homeless shelter up in North Tulsa. And we were there for about a year and a half and I started going to the High School Daniel Webster High School that I actually would have ended up going to if we would have stayed in Tulsa and so it's kind of like this big circle loop we made in so ended up going to high school there while we were there. I started gathering with Southern Baptist Church here in Tulsa that was recommended to us by our pastors over in Bangkok. They had some connection. Somehow my faith really grew a great. It was a great church. I wouldn't agree with older theology now but they were kind of more moderate southern this but that was a great church to be in high school and my youth pastor actually for graduating. He gave me a book by Inti Right. After you believe I am just now getting around to reading it but it was almost a foreshadowing of me becoming Anglican and so ended up going to mention when I was eighteen in my senior right before going to college. I've been praying. Lord what he wants me to do with my life and I had this prophetic dream. Were God the father showed up on the throne. Everything was shrouded in darkness. Which kind of the mystery of God and lifted up God's arm and pointed to me and said you are a prophet so I woke up from this dream and my grandma coming from a pentecostal background. I was like what the hell just happened. And she was like believe in that sort of stuff. But I don't know what to tell. Ya kind of put it on the back Burner Freshman Year. Byu ended up going to a on a mission trip to I went to Oklahoma Baptist University. I guess I should say but ended up going on a mission trip to Russia with my church planning professor while I was there and while I when we were in Russia that we met this Our interpreter was a prophet and he. I long story short while I was there. I thought God had revealed to me who my wife was and for about a year and a half after that. I was like really charismatic. Went back from pentecostal routes had been southern Baptist illogically up until that point and finally. I realized that I was wrong. That God hadn't join me who my wife was in that. Prophet being profit didn't mean I was in follow -able in that you know around my sophomore year I'd say I was policy major in an interdisciplinary major and my apology professor was a biscuit. Palin WHICH IS THE CHURCH. I'm in now. And so he taught us really critically think the question things and it was kind of through that that. I began to deconstruct my faith in as pentecostal in southern baptist. Both of those are kind of in. The historically pentecostals are not fundamentalist. They're not part of that movement. I I came later learn but they kind of ended up kind of moving into that movement later on so pentecostals in southern Baptists or but her car fundamental so you have Protestants within protestantism which arose about five hundred years ago. And then you have the evangelical tradition that arose out of protestantism about two hundred fifty years ago with Jonathan Edwards. Charles and John. Wesley and George Whitfield. Three of those four were Anglicans by the way and then about one hundred fifty years ago. Roughly a little bit less than that you have the rise of the fundamentalist tradition within the evangelical tradition. So you kind of have these concentric circles moving in and and and and there's a greater and greater emphasis on the authority of Scripture in on the foundation of scripture for one's faith in life up until you get to the fundamentalist movement to where they literally say there's some volumes of a collection of essays overproduced out of Biolo- by the fundamentalists and one of the articles. The author explicitly. You want. I can find you the quote but the author explicitly identifies scripture with got explicitly. Identifies him so you kind of see? This could trajectory the Martin. Luther was not a publicist. He was not a fundamentalist From what I. He did not believe the Bible was the primary was was the word of God. He thought that was Christ. He came up with this doctrine. Oscilloscope Torah but that was because it was. It was less corrupted than tradition. So that was a better witness to the word of God who has Christ So that being said Protestants or you know you can be Protestant and not necessarily think the Bible. God did the same thing but fundamentalism you kind of see that trajectory just a little bit of background on that. So I ended up kind of deconstructing out of this fundamentalist tradition traditions that I came from and it all centered on the Bible because that was what my faith was based off was the Bible and as the specifically Azina Word of God and remember kind of one of the first memories. I have kind of strings being pulled was I was about the preach for the first time in my roommate. Who came from a missionary Baptist background which is a little bit more fundamentalist than Southern Baptist? I had mentioned to him that I don't. I didn't think I was GONNA use Scripture in my servant which you know to a to most Christians let alone southern Baptists or missionary about this out just like totally taboo and he really got into this argument. In my my. My point that I made was that Abraham didn't have scripture and others didn't have scripture. The scripture wasn't necessary for salvation or even walking in faith that was helpful but it wasn't necessary so that was kind of the beginning of pulling the strings and into my junior year. I remember starting to read the Bible in in think. I don't think this is the word of God at least not completely and I remember in my senior year continuing on that trajectory and I actually start a lot of people you know in some others talk about how they're deconstruction fundamentalism. Started with the Bible but it was by reading the Bible they saw these inconsistencies and errors and I didn't deconstruct that way. I actually kind of did it. More abstractly not reading the Bible but thinking about the Bible theoretically if divine revelation is an errant in infallible Because God is inviolable but then it enters into human beings who are errant and follicle. What results is infallible? So I kind of I begin. I kind of went at it at a different angle and but that continued. I remember my senior doing this internship with a really great church in Oklahoma City. Church planning interject but they the best community I've ever experienced in a church even church in now. The community is not quite this good but they were. They were fundamentalists theologically. They will very loving people but that was where they were and I remember I was doing a Bible study with him and we were going over. Act Seventeen in it says Paul he left the vessel. Nike went to Brera in there. He preached the word or the logos in Greek and the BARREIRAS accepted joyfully. They accept they compared it to the Graffeo or scriptures daily to see. If it was truth I remember reading that in thinking. Wait a minute. The author of acts is not equating scripture in the word his using them differently and so the rabbit trail kind of kept going down that rabbit trail and it was during this fall semester. My senior year that I really struggled with the possibility of me. Being a heretic. For my background. That was the worst possible thing that could happen and I went to my apology. Professor started. Just tell him some of the things that I was thinking in. He said you're not a heretic. You're just not evangelical anymore and that was really helpful but I continued to do that and by the time I got to college. I wasn't fundamentalists anymore. I really wasn't even Anjelica only more Protestant but I wasn't Catholic. I wasn't eastern Orthodox but I still accepted the creeds of Was Fine with the apostles creed and I see in Creede Caledonian definitions. But I wasn't in any one of those traditions explicitly anymore and I even early even in my senior year into graduation. I got this. Don't Wanna use the word feeling. I can't think of a better word. I got this feeling from God that I needed to strive for unity and so I decided that I was going to still work with the southern bath at least for a time so I did this internship in Seattle. I had interned with this church two summers previously and really loved about the the first time I went but I went up there and it was a transplant internship. It was just terrible. I was up there for six months and the community had gotten really crappy and So I was really lonely in that sense. I had to hide my theology and I just really had a terrible time and my fiance was in. That's a long story in and of itself nominee open book. You can ask me any questions you want if you WANNA go deeper. But while I was there my fiance came up spring break. I had been there for six months in while she was there on a Wednesday pastor. Keith called NATO's office. And he said you're on teachable. And you push back too much. And so that was kind of my. It's time for you to leave. And so I ended up going back to Oklahoma where my fiance was. And I back to Obi you where we where I went to college where she was still going to college and in. This is where misfits comes into the picture. I was talking to my friend Chris. Thrash -Ly who is now Catholic at the time he was trying to figure out who's NBC Orthodox or Episcopalian And he was a hardcore convinced universalist at the time as well but suffice it to say we were both misfits and I told him. I need a place where I can be a misfit where I don't have to agree with others and where I don't you know we we don't have to. We can come to the table. Podcast and in have a conversation in half coffee and still love each other and so we started the misfits geology club which started off as a group met my apartment once a week and we had coffee and snacks and we talked about theology and it was mostly people. That were kind of deconstructing there. A couple of people that were not necessarily deconstructed but it was that was mostly who was a part of it. I and it was great for about six months. It was really helpful for me was healing for me in a lot of ways and so I ended up but the group fell apart and it fell apart but in its death had a resurrection in its resurrection was the blog and I decided that we needed a place I could. I could continue this work. At this point. I really fell call towards seeking unity in the church. That this was part of my prophetic call was to call the Church back to faithfulness to Christ by being unified and I started starting to recruit bloggers and I. I had the temptation a very very big temptation. I think anyone that comes out of the fundamentalist background that deconstruction is burnt out as hurt by. The church has temptation ahead the temptation that I was only going to recruit bloggers that were not fundamentalist or even and I remember God reminding me of an experience. I had right after I graduated high college right before I went to Seattle. I worked at a conservative evangelical fundamentalists summer camp and their statement of faith had something about Erin CNN Why think one other thing I can accept and it was one of the head? Honchos came down and was going through it and basically said if you don't agree with this you can come talk to us but really you're going to get fired. He didn't say it quite that bluntly but that's what it summed up to be in so I really struggled for a couple of days while I was up there too. Should I out myself or should I hide and I don't really have a place to go. I just graduated I've three or four months Not planned for in so. I remember sitting in my cabinet and I just. I didn't hear a God audibly this time but it was powerful nonetheless. I heard God say if they want to get to. You have to go through me. And at that moment some pride rose up and I was like great gods on my side but then God spoke again and said away. If you WANNA get to you have to go through me so I learned in that moment. That God wasn't playing sides of God was for all of us that we were all his children. And God reminded me of this when I was tempted. When I was recruiting bloggers and so one of the first people that came to mind was my nathan roadshow to abuse he. He Southern Baptists and I call them up and I was like hey man you came to mind. This is kind of what I'm doing. And so that was kind of the vision from early on is that Orthodoxy is important but it has been reduced or maximalize to include all these trivial things. Don't matter I remember my historical theology. Professor Daniel Brunner my first semester of seminary. I'm in my four semester. Now said that if you look at the early church in what they were doing when they came up with the creeds they were really four doctrines that were considered pillars of Orthodoxy are measures of Orthodoxy. And they were all doctrines of God and the reason why they were. All doctrines of God is because Orthodoxy is tied to the Church's worship and we don't worship scripture scripture wasn't a measure of Orthodoxy and all these other things weren't so only dot since we worship God alone only doctrines of God were measured supported oxygen. He listed four things. The trinity the full humanity. Indeedy of Christ the Virgin Birth and bodily resurrection. He said outside of that. Anything anything's go. And so that was really the heart behind creating the Memphis. Theology Club is that we want to create a plate. We want to emphasize orthodoxies important. But we want to also emphasize that we don't have it all figured out. We don't have all the answers. God is mystery and that means we're not going to know everything but we also want to be a place. Where one of my bloggers is a openly. Gay Evangelical Lutheran Church member. Actually she the pastor now and some of my other bloggers are to have very conservative views on homosexuality and so we wanted to create this place to where you could think the Bible was Erin or you could think Bible wasn't the word of God or you could think that homosexuality is a San or you could think it's totally fine. So this place that was as open as we could possibly be within what we thought were the bounce Orthodoxy and and so that was kind of a whole bowl of the Sikh unity within that and I realized pretty early on that unity can only really happen we. There is a space for that online. You go to facebook or twitter and you have all these twitter facebook wars so obviously there's a space for the online where we can come together in have good conversations without throwing Molotov cocktails into people's Windows not that that's ever happened but if unity was actually going to happen on the ground a half it had to happen. Offline where people from different traditions pentecostals Catholics Orthodox Baptist pissed Palance quakers. Were actually coming into the same room together. And having a conversation in hopefully befriending one another. And that's where actual unity was going to happen. And so I knew I needed to come up with some sort of conference where the misfits geology conference as an idea came is that we needed to to put people in front of one another in so the we just did the first one this last September and it was great. We had Thomas. She ordered our keynote speaker. And he is. I've known him now. Think about three years and he is just he walks the talk I may not even agree with all his theology but he is a very loving follower of Christ definitely walks. Talk the so. He was our keynote speaker and he was talking about his new book. God can't which is as you can imagine is a hard topic but he did it with grace and he did it in such a way to no-one threw tomatoes at him and we also had so. He's Nasreen we had an eastern Orthodox speaker talking about Echo Theology. He had a Roman Catholic speaker. We had a a southern Baptist speaker whose church planning professor who was a missionary over in Asia for over twenty years and then we had we had a worshiping component to it. And and so we had quakers non denominational charismatics Presbyterian PC USA AN PCA. And so we had all these different denominations show up from a really wide umbrella. And I think it was a really positive experience. Nobody bit each other's heads off. Nobody was telling people to fuck off. It was just a really good experience. And so that's what we're going to try to continue this next year. I've secured Keith Giles. And were we've got a guy named Jason Bobo who's a local pastor here in Tulsa. Pca and So yeah so that's Kinda All say that's kind of my story that's kind of how I went through deconstruction and then how ended up leading to the misfits theology club First and foremost let me thank you for just. You can't your candor in being transparent and just all the things that you've mentioned I definitely want to say thank you for. Just just doing that. I want to recognize that as well in in what and there's a tremendous amount to impact and all that you just said I think it would. It would be worth going back and listening by a couple of times but the the thing that I wanna ask you from starting from all that is you also get the live many many different places and you lived in such a way as you'd mention you know. Economics was a definitely a part of its culture was a big part of it. So you got to be in the trenches per se you know dealing with all these things economically and in different cultures and Bangkok and different parts. Your stories for as the. How can you put a decisions? People made. It could give you all the reasons in the world that you needed to just give up on humanity and he especially on God right if you WanNa say yeah yeah right look all these bad decisions and all. These things are impacting. These aren't flippant things. These these aren't small things. Easer as you mentioned. Were trauma we we. We've continued our podcast in even personally. Continue to see this what it means whether it's a bad veterans on domestic violence survivors child abuse survivors You know trauma is a is a real thing that but in light of that comes this decision or this quandary now now what do you do so can you take me back a little bit to your time dealing with atheist agnostics in the hood in the poorer sections one of one of the parts of the you know the the Bible deadly the Gospel? You know the beatitudes and stuff of that nature that that you hear Jesus speak in your dislike man. This is challenging everything I think I see in the real world right here in the real world. No no it's all about power and control in in money and material things in this is this is the God on earth and you're telling me to worship in a completely different way that is counter to this thing. I keep seeing and then when he says you know blessed are the meek blessed are the poor. Can you take when you were in amongst your you know of of areas in which I feel completely understandable but even in those other areas you started to navigate all these different areas come across people of different cultures across come across different socioeconomic backgrounds in an plight? Did you ever see God? Did you ever not feel God? Was there like even amongst other nine months yourself amongst other people did you see it. Did you see the spirit out in the world? Yeah I've I've often wondered how I remained a Christian. I lot of people you know Thomas Gerard mentions when he talks that the number one reason. Why PEOPLE ARE ATHEISTS? Agnostics is the problem of evil that they're suffering in the world. So how can there be a good and loving God and I think that was why I mean I don't I was nine years old. I don't remember how long a period I was. Atheist is a fairly short time but I think that was the reason why I had given up belief in God for that period of time because of the problem of evil and suffering in in my own life and but I think the reason why I held onto Jesus was because Jesus was always there I might sound cheesy but Jesus was always my friend. He was consistently. They're always I look back and I can see. There's one instance I remember. I don't remember much of the abuse I went through. I don't know all the psychology behind it but I think oftentimes when children go through trauma they black it out But one of the things I do remember isn't an actual abuse. I think it must have been right after it. I was sitting in our apartment in broken Arrow and it was raining outside and there was this. This out the glass store and I was crying and I was wishing for my grandmother to be there and I remember My junior year I was doing I was telling the story through a with a couple of mentors and they were kind of walking me through this in praying with me through this experience from long ago and I just realized I kind of I went back to that place and I saw Christ there and since then I look back and I realized that Christ was always with me and so i. I think that that's why I have remained a Christian. You Know Brad. Usak was kind of asked a similar question recently on a podcast and he said something. I just sheer grace and I thought to myself. That is a really good answer. And that kind of resonated with me it was just sheer grace and. I don't say that I imagine maybe some listeners. Who USED TO BE. Christians who went through some sort of trauma now are atheists agnostics might be like well. Why Didn I had that share grace. And so I don't want it to come off sounding as if only I have grace. I think God gives us all grace in it looks differently. You know we all have different experience in different password walking but I definitely feel like Jesus was always part of my journey and that has kept me on this path trying to follow. Jesus seen what it looks like and in growing up living in a trailer park and then government housing in a non food stamps. We never went hungry like we weren't that but I do remember even especially in high school. When I was part of the church in Tulsa Southern Hills most of them were of upper middle class socio economic status so they went to live revocations. They went to Colorado ski trips. And I never got to go on any of those that were in private schools and I always when I when I was in high school. I wanted to obtain to that. I wanted to That was Kinda my goal. I'm going to go to college. I'm going to get a degree so I can get a good job so I can live the American dream and as I went off to college and I started reading the Utah Remember. I come from a Prosperity Gospel back out kind of had to relearn how to read the New Testament and as I did I realize the New Testament is pretty anti-rich from my perspective I continued to read it and read it and read it and you know Jesus would say things like it's through the you know it's harder for a rich man to go to enter the Kingdom of God than it is for Campbell. Does the eye of the needle and I've read stuff like this or in Earth I timothy. I think he says something. That's pretty harsh against the rich. And so I. I realized that this wasn't This wasn't what I was being called. L. Wasn't called. The American dream wasn't called to have a nice house and a good job and and I still struggle at that I do I mean I live in a three bedroom. Two Bath House. Which is I've never lived in at least for years and years for a long time. I lived in a small apartment so and my wife's a nurse so I I did move up in the world a little bit but I do as I've gotten older. I think that part of what it means to follow. Jesus is not too. I think. Shake Shane Claiborne. Said it best live simply so that others may simply live and I'm not perfect at that. I still have that inner drive that I had in high school in a Lotta ways to have a quote unquote better lifestyle. But I. I'm hoping that I'm moving in that direction of living simpler so that others may simply live. Did that answer your question that in some you know what you mentioned Schenk Lebron. I remember reading this book way. Back two thousand sixty thousand seven and I'd like to hear him again on some podcast. I'd forgotten that I'd listen to that book or that. I'd heard that read that book years ago in and you're right it was a challenge then and it's a challenge around that nationalism materialism all those things as far as the New Testament. I want to go back. You'd mentioned and I think you did such an eloquent and beautiful job of recognizing I keep hearing in what you're saying around not the duality as if that's the only thing but that you recognize that there's other elements to conversations points and stuff like that. It's the nature of the blog with all the different which I think is just a beautiful. What beautiful mess. What a beautiful synergy around all that kind of stuff. But you specifically you're talking about people that suffer you'll have gone through this that into your point we're kinda going well. I don't feel that same grace. And maybe maybe really got really doesn't care about me because he got it but also this can get into a little bit of an area that I'm not really fond of in terms of like from an evangelical stamp but like it's my job to go and save the world but then I also know that we're called and there's an opportunity for people to to open that hand and be loving towards others. Were a other than your family. Your Grandmother People like that. Were there any other? Were there any other? People per se may have helped that that that that staying in contact with Jesus in terms of feeling love that were actual people who were the hands and feet of Christ to you personally. Yeah definitely pastor Martin. In my youth pastor Dayton in Bangkok they were probably some of the first Christians. That really were the hands and feet of Jesus to me. At least that was at a point in my life where it was going have a lasting impact so you mentioned grandmother. Obviously she is. A you. Know in my acknowledgements for my book. I say that she saved me and she really did. But there have been other people in my life that have really poured into me. I think my first Prese Episcopal church Father Tom. I had the church I was in when I got kicked out of the Church in Seattle and I think he you know he grew up. Church of Christ. He was a youth minister in the Church of Christ for a long for ten years and went through zone. Deconstruction was atheist for awhile and so he was a great person to kind of walk alongside me kind of as the hands of hands of in feet to Jesus. I'm sure there are others that I I'm. I'm not thinking of at the moment. But while I do WanNa step back a little bit to the same time in dismissing the impact that you remember their head on you because sometimes we look at that and can easily think I'm talking. We can easily think to ourselves. Oh well of course your mother father had to be kind to you. Because they're your mother father but as we see in contingencies so many times that is definitely not the case. So how important kills a little bit about your grandmother and what you alluded to it some aspects before but just kind of tell you what just her loving presence Meant in your life. Yeah Do you mind if I read the acknowledgement. I wrote to Her. Not at all man. Of course let me just pull the separate And lastly to my grandma I I must give honor and respect in the highest accord without you. I surely would not believe in the goodness of God. You showed me that even amongst evil broken suffering there is good in humanity and there is good in the bride of Christ as a child suffered great pain and you yourself are no stranger to bitter pain and broken s but even in your own suffering when it is so easy to focus on one's own suffering you reached out to a suffering boy and allow God to use you to show him what. God's nature is like a god who reaches out with kindness of heart vulnerability in an uncanny ability to love through the midst of God's very own suffering. You've had the greatest impact on my life. And I owe my life to love that it reminds me of a frontal show up in terms of there's impact it can have an individual directly like you and then telling that story later. I remember when I first told you thirty two and I started to become even entertain. The idea of this thing called faith in Christianity but one of the people that that was around with a young lady named Aaron Day. My Friends Ernie. He's currently in Alaska or down here when I was first going and I was meeting it. Mark Hamill who was a preacher who baptize me. Like a dad to me. Now's he's like a brother friend. His family it's part of my story in a beautiful thing in terms of relationship. Wise not from an exterior sandwiches from adept standpoint. But she was talking about her grandmother making me think of her and she she brought up a word legacy. She's at this legacy that her grandmother had created the started with them. And I think it's so crucial and I want to honor your grandmother as you were with your Your acknowledgment around. It has to be strange stranger on the street. You can be you with the immediate family that you have in front of you. And that's an opportunity given this is a heart right in front of you can do this and it just it just makes me because it makes me think I would almost WANNA argue back to your the people. You're not the general people around that are atheist agnostic who suffer trauma of whatever and he didn't have to be significant in sexual abuse or a or something like that. It could just be day to day just day to day existence right you talk about community in the video talking about wanting to be part of that anytime. We're anytime we push back and say that that person's not supposed to be part of this or they need to do something specifically to get into this group. That's a tough plight is a tough place to go to work and waking up in the morning so having somebody in your life that's willing to put the handout in love you for wherever you are wherever you are at that moment. Maybe that's why they haven't seen God. I don't WanNa say that is because they don't want to. I know it's a slippery slope because then now it's like well now it's my job and if I was in kind of that person or if I didn't I was a nice from the grocery store and also it's my fault that they don't love God but I also have that opportunity by just being kind just being kind of that so i WanNa kind of build on that for a second. Go back to your group of your your bloggers in the in the disparity amongst them in terms of just basic theology so when you have conflict maybe in that area that nature around people that okay sounds great this unity thanks towns. Great Gabriel go love people. Okay Great. I'll walk into somewhere in. This person is looking at me telling me that. Lgbtq people are just going to hell for just existing okay. That's not an easy one. It's not like you know it's not it's easy as do you want to be left and right brain or do you appreciate art. You know people may say other. Maybe I could help teach you. But there's not like manage you or they're not they don't feel like that's detrimental to the world. We're not suffer. It's causing. Its own suffering by not appreciating physical art statues and things like that but that potential around saying just for your basic. This you existing. Just you're just however you were born. You're born that way. Some some of those chemical imbalance in your brain and you're making a perverse decision or asked me like sexuality or politics or religion or pick your favorite topic. So how do you guys and Gals navigate that part in? What what is it that you? What do you guys do to navigate that s? I remember in my Undergrad My Church plan professor specifically in the context of church playing told us at when you go into a community if for the first time you look for persons of peace and I think that's relevant for when you're looking to seek unity in the church is that you have to look for persons a piece because you can go to. You can go to people. In My denomination era is a church. Piscopo churned Tulsa. That many of the people in the church do not think that non Episcopalian even Christians which doesn't necessarily tend to be something that piss gradients thing so you can go to any denomination Catholic Orthodox pentecostal baptist. And you're gonNA find people that are not willing to have a conversation that are not willing to be friends with someone from a different denomination so you have to find persons apiece and. I think there are those persons piece in each of those nominations in terms of the misfits theology club. We don't always get to interact with flooding other. I remember at least in person. I think that's probably one of the shortcomings for doing something online. But every once in a while will will have a blogger will write a post and another blogger who disagrees will write a response post. So I'll give you an example so I wrote a post on. I think I titled It. Should we trust the Bible or something like that? My argument was basically that That's the wrong question. They really is not show. Good Trust the Bible should be trusted. Jesus our trust should be placed in Jesus not Scriptures and at a blogger who his more on the evangelical side of things in so. She wrote a response on when she disagreed. She's actually one of my seminary classmates in a very very kind very heartfelt loving person and so we ended up having this. I don't know six post exchange where we just kept riding back and forth and back and forth. It was just so much. And she's a really prolific writer and she's quick so I'll take me a month to write a response but she's just so you know she'd write four responses than I would have to try to catch up but in this inter in this exchange We both shared our points of view. We both shared while we disagreed with one another but at the very end of it. I think I had posed the question. If you were on a desert island and you had to choose between having the Bible Jesus will do choose and she said. At the end of the day she would choose. Jesus and I don't say that to say oh I want her over. You know shooting read with me right but I think that our unity between me and Joanne is in our agreement on the Olivetti. But it's in our. It's our following of Christ which is at a deeper level than the allergy or intellect. And and I think that that has to be the case. If we I do think I mentioned we have our doctrines or God. That are kind of our doctrinal statement and so we do have kind of Doctrinal boundaries but if our theology is all that our unity is based in. We're never going to have unity. I do a lot of work with southern. Baptists I when I got kicked out of the Southern Baptist Church in Seattle. I never thought I would be working with southern Baptists again but my youth pastor my best friend. Who's a youth? Pastor is not really baptist. But he's out of Southern Baptist Church and so I do a lot with their church I also do a lot with some of the other southern Baptist churches in town. There's a youth of that Coming up called the collective which is a bunch of Churches. Get around into space like discipleship retreat. That goes the whole weekend and I've been helping with the teaching for one of the the eleventh twelfth grade site that we're doing and it's me Colt and two other guys Christian. Josh a both wonderful guys. They're southern Baptists they they would definitely be fundamentalist but they're very loving their persons of peace. I believe and so we have to. We WanNa do a gospel presentation and so we have to address the elephant in the room. I pointed out. I don't believe in penal substitution tone. Minute that. I don't believe that once saved always saved and so the way that we're going to present the Gospel is going to be very different. And so part of of that process of seeking unity is figuring out okay. What are the things that we can both be on board with in? How can we have? Can We present the Gospel in a way that we think is both faithful to our witness to Christ but also is does not go against our own conscience and that's hard and that's messy but I think that That's ultimately what happens but it has to start with persons of peace. You can't if you know. I can't work with all southern Baptists. Because not all southern about those persons piece in the same way not all episcopalians persons fees and and and sometimes it means not bringing up theology that you know they will disagree with. I don't bring up all the theology that I know. This agree with because I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm not. I'm not trying to end the conversation. I'm not trying to say well you don't. You're not willing to work with me anymore because I don't believe with you on this. So this is your fault. You know I'm trying to Actually seek unity and sometimes that means not bring up the theology. You know they're going to disagree with that that I wanted to ask you. You've thrown around. There are so many titles versions. You know Anglican calvinism has one. Catholic is the other but you know from there. You know both sides just go go go go go and there's so many different ways and you use so many in and I even think now sometimes I wonder if we I'm sure he would love it. If we had an Indian version of of of being Christian era. I'm probably Indian or back out so then all of a sudden you're going that route because Yo- calvinism say Never Guy Luther Martin Luther Lutheran and so but I remember when I first got baptized. When I was thirty told you and I remember coming home in a good friend of mine. At the time grew up Catholic. We were talking about it and he member. I remember he kept saying. But we believe this and we believe this. We believe that one of the things I've found so appealing about the idea was that community in unity. That's one of the things in your growing up missing. Was this idea of being a part of something right and one of the first conversation is innocent. And he wasn't doing it to be counter he was it was part of his. You Know He. He knew there was some differences that I didn't and I just kept thinking how like what. Why is there? Is there a difference at all? Like why isn't if we believe in God? Believe God of the Bible God of Abraham so to speak we believe Jesus our Savior and bibles order. God kind of thing is a starting point. Immersing why isn't that? Why isn't that enough so I want to ask you because I also don't want be Pollyanna in say well. You know the only way if we don't have any if there's no titles at all we don't call anybody anything but there's another part of me that is why can't we just be. Why can't we just be followers of the way? Yeah why can't we be followers of the Christ in not through all the titles on their in? Is that even possible or is that even feasible is it even thought even try in a cab not doubt or not the double talk but but also feel. There's beauty what you're saying around getting all those people together in if it is different let it but then I always feel a little bit like we're setting ourselves up for for disunity by by putting that other than I may Xyz whatever you WANNA call it. Yeah I you know some there are some situations. It depends on the situation but there are some situations first and foremost. I'll say that I am a follower of Jesus I would. Would you did what you did it. Did I actually think denominations are inherently bad? I know I'm on part one but part of that. Is I think that God is what we would. Jesus reveals to us through the incarnation is that God is inherently incarnation and that means that God meets us where we're at our understanding in our personalities and our experiences in our shit in the ways that Things actually work even if they shouldn't work the way they do and God is still working with us. In the thing about grace is that grace meets US where we're at but it also expects us in pulls us in a new direction and so you know part of the reason why. I work within domination while the PISCOPO saline is because I believe that God is working within denominations even if they're not ideal and so I so I would say first and foremost. I am a follower Jesus and but I also think that denominations are not going away anytime soon. These titles Calvin s Armenia's Catholic spin Skins Easter thought. This titles. I don't think realistically are going to go away. And so I'd rather you know. There's a pastor in an organ who got to. I think it was five hundred. Five hundred anniversary of the Protestant reformation got to hang out with the pope and the pope said something to the effect of I want us to be unified. But I don't expect the providence to become Catholics and I don't expect Catholics to come Protestant so the kind of idea of we can. Both we can be whatever our title is whether it's you know quaker Presbyterian Lutheran But we can still we can still be unified and we don't have to expect the other person to come across the The the Stream. Whatever to our position so yeah Unity is hard and I think I've said that but it is. It's not easy and So I think this may become aware you're getting so I I think keep giles leans towards. I've heard him a couple times on heretic. Happy Hour podcast which is a fantastic podcast but This probably an area where I disagree with him. And he disgraced Some stuff that's okay but he probably thinks orthodoxy is less important I definitely think he holds to some things that would be considered Orthodox but he probably thinks it's a lot less important than I would personally and so so there's this kind of there's you know there's always a spectrum until at one side you kind of have this That Orthodoxy is what saves you have to have all these beliefs. You have to believe bibles in our word of God. Yeah they played in the Trinity Blah Blah Blah Blah. And if. You don't believe the stuff you're going to help in this is what saves you and then on the other end that Orthodoxy. That your behavior. Your actions aren't important because those don't save you know we don't want to be Catholic and so it's it's not faith by works so that's kind of one side and on the other side. I think there is this other extreme too. Where am I know? I'm calling out Keith on this but I think there's this other extreme I think he's probably falls onto a little bit And I love the guy and again he grew me but to where orthodoxy isn't important at all be in it's all about orthodoxy. But I think there's this I wrote a blog post recently I used John Calvin as an example. I think there is this That's a false dichotomy. I don't think it's either or I think it's both I think the Orthodox Orthodoxy are actually tied together. You can't have one without the other. So the example. I gave him this blog. Post is John Calvin so Michael. Severance was a non Trinitaria in heretic and he came into Geneva rolled up in town he was wanted by the Protestants and the Catholics. They were both trying to kill him. And so he rolled up into Geneva I guess because he had nowhere else to go and he got caught in after he got caught. A town got together The town leaders and said in Geneva was at the it was ruled by Calvin Harris and they got together and they said we're GONNA kill him for his heresy and they burned at the stake and John Calvin gave his per approval. Kinda like Saul. He gave his approval to to the execution. Although I will say I Calvin Sake. He did suggests that they'd be merciful. Behead him rather than burn at the stake which in his time. That was mercy. I don't think it was completely merciful nonetheless. I'll give that to him but he did approve the execution and what. I argued in the paper. Is that Michael? Severance may have been non Trinitaria but so was John Calvin the moment John Calvin rejected love by killing Michael Severance. He became non Trinitaria in because the trinity is love. So if you deny love you deny the trinity the trend you denied They go hand in hand. And if you accept love then you are accepting the trinity. Even if you don't think you are and if you accept the trinity in in a real way than you are accepting love and so you can't separate orthodoxy and in or the proxy and so. I think that's why you know win. I went over the doctrinal statement. App The misfits conference. Tom Again I've done time for three years. And he kinda got onto me. I based it came up that I don't think oneness pentecostals UNITARIANS are Orthodox. I don't think belief save you but I don't I wouldn't consider them Orthodox and so he kinda got onto me in front of everybody. I also I should say and but I think that's why we do have our our doctrinal are very minimal. I should say doctrinal statement is because I do think orthodoxy is still important. And it's because it's tied to our or through proxy are Orthodoxy Embodiment of our theology. So I love that. So we're we're book in Man. I feel like we feel like we could do this again. And I want to be respectful of your time and those listening again. A hope and the desire here was to talk a little about what misfits theologies about. You've done it absolutely wonderful job of that tells open about you which is always wonderful to get to know people on a personal level in and even you know. I think you know. Thomas is still your friend. Keith of your friend because at the end back to the whole thing love windows and and that love never fails in a and I definitely agree with that so I want to say. Thanks for your time. One of these I love to do at the end of this is to praise. Do you mind if I real quick let people know when the conference is and give another shout real Moore of course so the misfit theology conference is a ways away but we would love to have everyone out. Last year of the tickets. Were ten dollars. We might go up a little bit this year. But it won't be over twenty. We want the Mississippi Club especially coming from a low income background. We want the misfit theology club not to be for rich people. A lot of conferences charged like a hundred and fifty dollars or tickets or I love BRIANCON. He's we're actually trying to get him to come to the conference and heard back from him yet but he was charging like fifty bucks to learn how to pray and I. I think that's ridiculous and so we don't want to make a barrier if you don't have money and if you don't even have ten or twenty dollars or one of the ticket ends up being still come to the conference. I'll let you in for free. But that's going to be September Eighteenth and the nineteenth which is a and Saturday here in Tulsa so we would love to see you head out Keith. Giles's confirms he's going to be there if you don't know who he is you need to. And then as I mentioned I published my book back in September. It's called late night meanderings with God a collection of essays. You can pick that up on Amazon and come. Check out the misfit theology club so on the flip side of the for the for. The tickets can use sponsor a scholarship people. Can you give more than it was ten dollar ticket? Can you give twenty and it helps get somebody? I don't see why not go out there. Have you can do that as well in in. I think I would encourage anybody to do that. And so this is really beautiful because actually the original reason why reached out to find out when and where the conference was there. You go now. I know so I love. I love that so I wanted to ask to Would you would you be so kind to depress out as we as we wrap shirk? I'm Episcopalian which means like short liturgical prayers so this one hundred it is it is it. Is You have the time you are. You're able to what you Jesus. Christ son of God have mercy on us in prayer. Yes okay so you just talked about where to find you. We'll show notes encourage people to go over and listen to the misfits theology. Podcast it is. I know it's on popping Utah. Itunes replaces and they do a great job. Ozzy listen to the blog artless. I read the blog and in check it out or the book. I we do this. We always encourage people to do this. I'm going to reach out. I'M GONNA buy book love to read that and just again. Gabriel thank you so much man for your time coming on and giving people something to chew on and It was really really worth. Thank you and thank you for responding to my email. You know. It's one of those simple things you know how this goes jet. You put into the web sphere in web sphere Internet. You can go to somebody and say hey like talking. Sometimes you get a response times. You don't I'm really grateful on personal come along. I really appreciate it. I had a great time so I was excited to get your email by the way I was like. Oh this is awesome so good that means because it is you. WanNa you WANNA hear. I love every time I hear from people every time I hear anything I love. I love talking about it and stuff like that. So great man. I think we're choosing the same dirt and love it. All right was with. That sweetheart. Takes Away thank you for listening to the come to the table. Podcast subscribe by finding US wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can find links to all of them on our website at. Www dot the come to the table. Podcast DOT COM. We'd also love to hear from you. Reach out to sean by sending an email to shawn at to come to the table. Podcast DOT COM. Follow us on facebook instagram and on twitter. Thanks for listening and God. Bless everyone

Church Bible Jesus Tulsa Bangkok Seattle Gabriel facebook Keith Giles Sean Michael McCoy Asia WanNa Oklahoma Misfits Theology Club professor Israel Brad southern Baptist Church Jason Bobo