4 Episode results for "Sonia Sonia Suraya"
How to Make Sense of the Emmy Nominations
"Hello and welcome to little Goldman the award season podcast from Vanity Fair. It's such an honors present this next award nominees and the group and I can't deny the fact that you like me on the mistake grew like you guys won best picture. I'm Katie rich the deputy editor Vanity Fair Dot Com and I'm here for our Special Emmy Nominations Day conversation with our senior editor in Robinson Hi Katie and and joining us again we have our TV critic Sony Suraya High and our Hollywood editor Hillary thesis hello so we're a few hours removed from the emmy nominations. We've all taken some time to process it. Figure out who we're morning for who were excited about Hillary. You have been kind of assigning editing all the stories about it so for you what's kind of the story of these emmy nominations. If there's one big takeaway well so the obvious big takeaway is game of thrones getting thirty two nominations for season eight. It was a divisive season. They got a lot of flack throughout there. Was the Coffee Cup. There was the water bottle. <hes> more important things that went wrong there was there was a lot of conversation about the writing <hes> I think that wasn't there some story about who if you Google bad writers the first thing that comes up up now is which is very mean by the way the Internet Nicolette customer Waldo defending them and talking about the room so generally speaking the the conversation. If you've been paying attention to the Internet is like him thrown season it was bad and then here here comes thirty two nominations the most nominations ever given to one season of television <hes> which is pretty amazing so H._B._O.. Must be feeling pretty good right now. <hes> that's that's like it's the biggest story the bigger big story as well <hes> that is kind of heart warming arming is much smaller but shits creek got a whole lot of Emmy love and has never got nominated before <hes>. It's very adorable like heartwarming comedy. <hes> and I think that a lot of people are very excited to see getting. It's do you any you're too story about the game of thrones hall all kind of the same things that Hillary did the despite the online backlash it it did find. Do you talk us up to just the emmys liking what they like and wanting to do the same thing over and over again or is there something that that we all got wrong at the EMMYS got right. No I was I was personally like even though I agreed agreed with a lot of the criticism of the final season I never doubted that they would get a huge emmy nomination hall and probably huge Emmy Nomination win. It just feels like the television academy has never been exactly on top of the same aim things that the fans are the critics have been topped of when they don't like us. He's in like there was one year. I talk about this a lot peeved English is enormously talented but there was like one year they gave him an emmy. First season that Tyrian did like basically nothing and was barely in they just sorta felt like they weren't paying attention and there were like Oh give the thrones. That's a big show. Peter de Jesus go you know and so like I didn't think it would hamper their ability to get all these nominations nations. I was extraordinarily pleasantly surprised by some of the numbers because you know last year they broke the record getting twenty two this year is Hillary said they got thirty two and those ten extra like a lot of those are acting nominations which is really fun because is like you've got first time nominee Sophie Turner Great. I I'm nominee out the Allen first time nominee Gwendolyn Christie crease on Houghton in the guest category like there's just like room for all these things beyond the lake core. The lanes are siblings. Things have been nominated year after year you know and that's great but like just to give these other people Alfie Allen is just like I think that's my that's my big story today alcohol and getting an emmy nomination sounds like four Joanna specifically going to be so thanks to the television academy. I appreciate it yeah. It feels it feels. It feels good. That nomination for me feels good. I and another thing to to note is one of the big criticisms the the major episodes that are nominated are the lung night and the throne both of which were heavily criticized the long night criticized because people literally couldn't see it and the iron thrown is the finale criticized for a lot of different things. I didn't check this. I probably should have Joanna. Do you remember as the long night up for cinematography and did not get nominated for someone to talk fee that the cinematography award went to iron thrown okay. Is that what he'd been an amazing trolling they got nominated for editing and like both the sound design awards went to the iron thrown <hes> directing the headed F._i._C. screening of the long night at grauman's Chinese theater in all the settings were correct for it and it was on the big screen. It was in the dark theater and you didn't have to deal with the H._B._O.. Compression rate which like sort of muddied everything and everyone who saw it at that screening was like it was a masterpiece and like even Sonia mentioned this Nicolay Coaster Waldo was that was at this can game of thrones convention this this weekend he was like okay. Even at home was like who is that is that me is that going on. I can't see you know so like he was like yeah. I at home was really upset. By what I saw. It was like a big piece humble pie for us to like be like work really hard on this episode and go online and see all this backlash and yeah and then the academy decided to award what they saw which for many of them at that F._i._C._A.. Screening was a masterpiece so oh I think it's I think it's funny 'cause like even the highlights of the season like things people agree on like the brand ninety seen in a night is seven kingdoms seven kingdoms the second episode of the season which a lot of people or me at least think is the best was is not nominated for anything so like it's just like it's got all these nominations and all these nations for things that I'm like okay wasting buddy up for the only writers that got nominated for this final season okay. That's not what I would have done but okay yeah and going back to <hes> something that you said about Peter Drink Ledge and his parade of nominations especially the time that you know he won for one of his less active seasons on something that Sonia said before we came here was that often kind of seems like like the emmys voters see like six shows and they really like those six shows and so they're just like you know. Let's give a nomination everybody in here. <hes> and I think that there are years where that's more true <hes> and years that we're that's true but there's definitely it seems like there's definitely some evidence of that get in here. This is the more year because I mean to speak to some of the other shows that were nominated. This is US Mandy Moore gets her first nomination alongside Sterling K. Brown and Milo Ventimiglia who the academy Love Lake for for reasons that are like fine the answer before they announced the nominations about Sterling K. Brown Kim Jong <hes> from the mass thing or my favorite show and Darcy Carton from Barry in the good plays a okay there banter went on for like I want to say it was excruciating but yeah they were all these but then filled with all these self-referential jokes about how excruciating it is you can't do both you're not helping. I know my takeaway from that was I hope the Emmys don't don't have host after all if this is what it's going to be but and then so fleabag <hes> which got a ton of nominations none for the mail <hes> performers which is very interesting but I mean but gave fleabag bums me out not just doing the concept of men. That's obviously that's actually yeah so not just B._B.. While her bridge Sean Clifford and Olivia Colman who are regular cast members but Kristin Scott Thomas and the castrol she'd have very cool guest role cool monologue and feel shaw who is literally in one scene worship. We're fleabag goes to get therapy and it's like two minutes long because she's not good at it and Fiona Shaw <unk> says it's possible to fuck God and that's it. She got an emmy nomination for killing Eve two right she did yeah goodyear in the supporting role yeah yeah and there's May is a much bigger part which is a much bigger part yeah and then another show that just had like a huge spread of nominations is Berry which you know show that I love but I'm still sort of like reeling from the fact that Anthony Kerrigan who has no hang Stevens who's Fuchs and like Henry Winkler who already he had like made never had an emmy nomination and now one last year and now has the second one and Sarah Goldberg and even Sarah Goldberg right like it's just amazing how many minor performers which really leads me to feel that like a lot of voters were not watching that many shows they were watching. Maybe a handful of shows and the biggest overlap is where the nominations hit <hes> so they definitely watched when they see us yeah yeah we'll see how much they watch Fossey Verdon on top of that the it's like they picked one in each to obsess over. I think you're right yeah yeah and there's also the store that are still there year after year. Even though it seems like they're moment has kind of past like I was kind of surprised to see Viola. Davis sneak in for <hes> actress in the drama when I feel like nobody's mentioned how to get away with murder since she one which was years ago but my take is that that's her widows nomination. Melissa McCarthy can win an Emmy Friday so nobody saw widows but everyone who did is in the EMMYS Academy Americana. Hey won an Oscar Oscar for two detectives so it all all kind of cycles through is this race to talk about my favorite rule. which is the hanging episode rule? Oh yeah the for the Yes for here. There's a lot of confusion this morning in terms of like shows are. I have to air within an eligibility window and it'll be considered for series wide nominations but you can still get episode specific nominations if you sneak in <hes> with a hanging episode rule which means if you had enough episodes airing in the new eligibility window you can seek something in and I think that's how handmaid's tale right got gun the nomination in nominee to in <hes> because of that but Elizabeth Moss's ineligible because the bulk of handmaid's tale did not air and the eligibility window so weird so it'll have to have another crack next year right like right and him until he will be eligible next year right but it's just like it's so confusing because like ah this this makes the other thing that I always find so confusing about the Emma's like win. A shows first season is kind of nominated sometimes for a second season if the second season is airing in the emmy nomination window. You know what I mean is like in view voters are thinking about the <hes> the season that's currently airing when they cast their vote for the first season. It's all very like money. It's it all feels muddier than the Oscars do and I think that's because they don't Hook it around a calendar year. Grammy's uh-huh sure I don't understand how laverne Cox dominated to was orange the new black eligible except for guests categories or as oranges new budget irrelevant. I think it's more that the last season of orange the new black lack was irrelevant than I mean. I think that maybe Netflix is kind of keeping its outer drive for that shows last season which is about to premier in a wing and I think that maybe they were just kind of putting more effort behind you know the when when they see us even Ozark Ozark yeah seriously because Netflix is really missing. It's like big power players rates missing the crown. It's missing <hes> like a good season of new black and house of cards is is like in disgrace right and so it didn't have like it's usual Emmy Emmy power players in those categories and so it really anywhere to this great piece on like how many of its dollars it pushed behind Ozark and it's forty five point five five percent of its marketing distribution winter ozark. Oh my <hes> yeah so and the bodyguard thirty six percent this sorry that's just for drama but like still that's like so much <hes> and then like narcos little tiny bit house of cards little tiny any bit but there were like okay. We're GONNA do that Bush because Jason Bateman got some nominations last year so we can push it to get it into the main category which they did got nominated bodyguard got nominated but it was funny because I was like I was seeing Ozarka the top of all these like Gold Derby prediction enlist and I was like why because nobody talks about that show why and then and then I read up about how many how many dollars like apparently probably if I lived in L._A.. Wouldn't be why I'd be like sure that's exactly yeah. Well you mentioned bodyguard. Maybe a good time to talk about some snubs because Joanna we talk last week about how you were really pushing Richard Mad and not just for a nomination for bodyguard prefer a win and it got ways series nomination but he didn't get nominated. How did that happen? Hope harassing thing for me. I made me right <HES> NO I. It seems like a Sony and I were talking about this little bit this morning he just he does. It feels like a choice. I think is what's on your side. It's like and it's weird to me because like I do I think I think that should be flipped. I Richard Mountain is great in that series and I think that series is spotty at best and so I'm just like shocked for it to get a series nomination not a nomination for men who like holes it all together like is it starts. It's a really strong and then it really falls apart halfway through and so it just seems like a real miscarriage of justice for like I would prefer a blinking snub to this particular combination of nominations so that's interesting. I was surprised that <hes> homecoming the Amazon on series didn't get nominations. I'm especially in opera. Julia Roberts because you know it doesn't feel like that long ago whenever that when a giant celebrity made a T._v.. Show it was a big deal <hes> and it was like Oh my God. Can you believe it doesn't feel like they're stooping to do ATV but it still feels like a surprise <hes> and yeah homecoming wasn't particularly buzzy. I think that maybe Kinda had a brief moment and then sort of receded into the General Scrum of P T._v.. But still you know when Julia Roberts can't get an emmy nomination that just shows how competitive the market is and just how many shows there are yet it is interesting because fleabag <hes> kind of launched Amazon to a good year you know with Mazel and fleabag they've kind of they've got to back to back yeah all Maazel nominations. It got the most nominations after game of thrones <hes> which I guess just show Sonia that you and I are D- what the only people who didn't likes listen to this surprising to me. I don't understand what they see it but this really does go back to this whole thing about their now. They're locked in there watching the show Oh and then it's like there's just so much more room to give them some leeway. I guess with me with talent with style. It still looks beautiful. I'll give and they also like nominated like I don't think Luke Kirby got a nomination for the first season but he plays Lenny Bruce Awesome is really great like a it gives room for the deep bench of people who are on that show right. Yes it's not just Rachel rows ahead and Alex Abortion and actually speaking of House of cards <hes> Robin Rate and Michael Kelly Net nominated which again I think indicates that like even when these shows our lake disgraced or ending cancelled or whatever when people are locked in when when voters are locked in there still watching these shows they care about yeah. I think I think that was kind of like a I was somewhat expecting robin right to get nomination as a sort of like good job you for soldiering. I don't know I don't know rhapsody thing like usurp. The bad man mission you've got rid of the Batman and you carry it on Youtube Michael Kelly you did it. I don't know the I did want to talk about something that that Mike in Mike's Absence I was on the Mike loves to talk about which is the like double triple threats or whatever they get nominated so Jason Bateman getting nominated for acting and directing Natasha Leeann getting nominated for acting and writing for Russian doll phoebe while bridge acting and reading fleabag Bill Hader directing writing enacting berry and these these triple double threats are the people that Mike Lakes Assay often win like it's why you see like sort of like Donald Glover's. I'm like you know like a ah the when someone has so many talents brimming over so many talents that the television county often likes to award them with a win but do we think in that actress category and the Comedy Series Actors category does anyone have actual actual shot against Julian louis-dreyfuss or is this just like sort of the victory lap for Julia and veep. I think that the moon would have to crash before anybody one that emmy besides Julia Julia Louis Dreyfus Yeah. It's really hard to imagine especially because she didn't win. Last year like Richard Brosnahan got her year to try it so it doesn't feel as exhausting as it might have if it were just a nonstop streak. It's not just the cheapest great. It's not just the Julia Louis Dreyfus Great. It's that that it was last season's that she had cancer. The narrative is all the lineup of actresses who were nominated leg. It's such an amazing group of people like it is just exciting to think about the mall in one place and like Tasha Leone talking if he'd be waller bridge edge talking to Catherine O'Hara oh my God Catherine O'Hara getting nominated Hillary mentioned Shits Creek at the top but like we talked a little bit about it last week is a show that kind of got bumped by Netflix having aired on pop for a while but just seeing how much the emmys really jumped on board shits creek was so exciting and seeing like three like if you looked on the the television academy said this little spreadsheet which is what I'm currently looking at which has like Blah Blah just a CPAP TV and they're really excited for some. It's an incredible. Though I mean like I <music> I'm like it seems ungrateful to be like three Nominees Shits Creek but they missed in Levy but like I don't know it seems it seems sad not have Dan Levy nominated me and Andrew Scott like you know yeah so much but couldn't you just give us. One more thing also got. It was really Katie. We were talking about this on twitter but I was kind of shocked just looking at the grid of pictures to realize that all of the comedy actresses were all white women. I think that flea she'll Rishaad was nominated for something and that was the only performance the only performer I could see that was a person of color and then like Sandra. Oh is nominated <hes> in vase. That's on the drama side is <hes> nominated for and Sterling K. Brown on and on the comedy side and then totally just white women in the other side. That's Kinda surprised me right but then and then you see when they see us like coming like there's a lot of nominations for when they see us. which is you know? Veronese Netflix afflicts in the limited series degree rape that that is like bringing some non whiteness to the board and then also like Billy Puerto nomination which is bringing Grosso out that and Mahershala Ali who was nominated even though true detective objective was not except for outstanding opening credits. Yes my favorite yes. It got to nominations for Sterling K. branded opening credits. The opening credits were so good so really and also I. I also WANNA shout out <hes> A category that we haven't talked about <hes> which is animation <hes> which Sony and I were both thrilled to see Bodak horsemen finally get nominated for outstanding animated program. It's the best show on T._V.. Oh Wow yeah so. The nominees in that category are really interesting. There's some categories where it seems like. Just the same. Things get nominated year after year after year. <hes> variety talk series is one of them now. At this point. The lineup seems pretty set <hes> an animation you know so it's pretty typical to see Bob's Burgers and to see the simpsons seats South Park which didn't get nominated this year <hes> but there's finally a couple of new shows breaking in big mouth also snuck in there which is great. <hes> and I don't know it's nice to see that there are ways in which the emmys. These are paying attention to newer things yeah so like for example also pen fifteen <hes> who lose like middle school comedy from Comedians Meyer Scannon Anna Konkan got a writing nomination which is just like so exciting that it could get got enough ground school behind it to get a nomination. I mean when I go into the emmys like I'm never expecting like my super. True faves to really get honored whether that's like you know Rami on Hulu or like high maintenance on H._B._O.. which are like I know that their Indian they're sort of niche but then to see pen fifteen get honored to see big mouth get honored? This is like so exciting and Oh in documentary now the the Song Todd documentary I mean these are like really like such successful. Little nuggets little gems that <hes> of conduct reality show last week. I talked about how I wanted. Marie Conde to have more amy buzz and she did. I didn't know it I she's nominated up in the category that also includes Rupaul and then Amy Poehler Nick Offerman is a team like what a a group of people getting those people in a room I y no I want. I want to come to the emmys and do her bow. You know do like how she wanted to do it and then I want her to clean house yeah. She's GonNa Touch Jason Bateman and you don't bring joy and also in reality. I was really excited that nailed it made it into the competition lineup. I believe that's the first streaming reality series to make it into the category the way I really wish Nicole buyer had also gotten host nation since she she has brought me more joy on television than anything else this year and repulse drag race got fourteen nominations throughout the reality categories yeah. That's that's the reality Juggernaut now that's just incredible the the fact at that show turned into the unlikely nominee into like an awards juggernaut is like amazing <hes> then we were talking about it last week. I was really worried that a sharp objects was gonna get completely overlooked because it has been sort of muted reception its beginnings of nominations but not like the high accolades that I really wanted it to but it both Amy Adams and Patricia Clarkson got in there got eight nominations so the television academy has not forgotten about sharp objects and like dot e miatas performance <hes> because I'm GonNA personally start screaming at academy voter until they vote for that's my such a good performance in its I mean while you guys hey Vanity Fair Cover Star Patricia Arquette I do not hey our cat. That's the problem I really liked Patricia arquette too. I just felt like Amy Adams. Performance in sharp objects just like really like like rattled me and got under my skin and I I just feel like that show <hes> about Siri. Let Limited series rather did so many interesting the things that kind of got forgotten about it's really been Lady Academy. <hes> and I mean Patricia Arquette has like a pile of award he does have a out of trophy must lead nominations. I mean just screaming Adam. Yes Yeah Merie conduct could like come an interpreter cat. How does the like tiny up her awards and then she would look at Amy Adams empty shelves and be like this is sad? You need an award I mean this is how much fan fiction the awards already setting us up for because we have Catherine O'Hara we have very condo like we can just start to like really build narratives in our minds. That's what's television is four exactly yeah I forgot about shits creeks most exciting <hes> nomination which is contemporary costume. Oh my God so I'm really is wardrobe. GETS GETS THE WIN for real hair showed up to the emmys character all spontaneously combust amazing leasing and then she could do a performance from cabaret. Oh I'm so happy that we've decided to just fully into writing fan fiction. Do you guys want to start leaning toward potential winners like obviously we're gonNA spend a while talking about a lot of these but does anything about the the nominations tally. Tell us anything about who we think is GONNA win other than I guess that game of thrones in veep as expected or still massive contenders something that we actually haven't talked about yet <hes> but that going back to <hes> Amy Adams and Patricia arquette is leading actress in a limited series or T._v.. Movie category is really brutal because Michelle Williams is so good and Fossey and like I would be so thrilled for any of those three women to win but like I mean this is also just because as you know it's about musical theater and that's the topic that I care about maybe more than escaping from prisons and self harm but I thought you burden is so good and Michelle. Williams is amazing in it. She just this amazing transformation gwen Verdon I don't know the show got a lot of nominations nations but it still feels like it doesn't have quite the same momentum behind it that I think you might need in order to actually get those nominations translate into wins but Michelle Williams I think Chernobyl Stole Fossey Verdon Edmund <hes> because I think anyone was was really expecting that series to do as well as it did and it got nineteen nominations which is so crazy when you think about the fact that it is like led by like old suffering from Radiation Soviet men and we're like suffering through our landscape like it's kind of amazing story time we'd rather watch bleak like ration suffering or when they see us which is one of the harder things watch. I mean it's so it's like so necessary but I had to start and stop the first episode fifteen times finished it and it's just really interesting to see those two up against escape ident Amora sharp objects fuss evert in which feel a little bit more like prestige awards bait types of programs. It's very it's really interesting time a guy who would you guys like what would you say would win for limited series of this point because I'm leaving seeing that because I thought when they see us how the strong showing because they handle is acting nominations but Chernobyl had the highest tally but it makes it hard for me to think of who would be the favorite in that lineup yeah I feel like Jared Harris wins actor maybe and when they see us when series ending when they see us absolute win series. That's how I feel too I mean I think it's such a just because it's the relevance of it is very hard to because even Chernobyl which also has relevance this is not as relevant yeah especially with politics. I mean who knows where we're going to be politically in September but I can see politics <hes> stuff yeah making people want to vote for when they see us not just on marriage the series but as a kind of like rebuke the trump administration you're saying he's not going away before September. I feel like they were real world consequences from when they see and I think that you say like low behold <music> the power of T._v.. All those influencers go into taking the the one thing we consider like even with all these game of thrones dominations nations the fact that eleven of those nominations are acting categories means that they could easily cancel each other out right now so it'll be you know there's three supporting actor nominations and three supporting four supporting actress nominations which is crazy see so like you know Hey Fiona Shah for killing you might get in there because all the game of thrones actresses cancel each other out or something like that so I don't know maybe too many nominations is is the problem I mean it's hard to imagine they wouldn't split the vote in those very full categories. Yeah I mean or it's just everybody is like oh well Peter desolate why not right Yeah Poor Alfie Ellen Peter Gingrich again. It's like why he was very good this season he's really but he has many you know it Scott Emmys Peter Given to Nikolai or Alfie and like you know Lena he if Lena hedy wins which she hasn't ever one game thrones if she wins it will certainly be like a series long sort of anemia. She earns yeah. You'll have more insight on this because I was kind of disappointed not necessarily that Amelia Clark and Kid Harrington were nominated but that they were nominated in lead like I understand why sort of conceptually but I sort of felt like I always feel like the the WHO's who's elite performer and who's a supporting performer on game of thrones is way more complicated than we'll yes these admitted in lead last year and got snubbed. They didn't make it in <hes> when they submit inle last year until I was expecting it until like Tuck tail and like Bop back down to supporting but they're like nope. Let's do it again but I think I would agree that the way that this season was framed. It really was John. John Harris season so like this season more then last season when they tried it I._B.. Like yeah they're they're the leads of this end game of thrones yeah but neither of them is GonNa win. I mean I don't know Emilia. Clarke did so much so little actually like I would. I might might be tempted to vote for her given everything that she had to like. Try to make make sense I'd love to she won and just got like okay. Here's how I really felt that would be beautiful. Yeah elite actress and a drama is tough. It's Emilia Clarke Jody comber Viola Davis Laura Linney Mandy Moore Sandra. Oh and Robin riot men the fact that Sandra Owen and Jodi Kumar going up against each other is another really interesting thing I mean I'm very excited for both of them. I think they're both fantastic performers but it's I mean it's impossible. It's a very difficult to imagine that they would not split the vote against each other. Other doesn't Sandra Oh have the benefit of being the more famous one and having been on television for longer and like she got the nomination last year she didn't win. I feel like if I wanted to award killing eve I would easily go for her but I think in the second season became more of a to handwrite. It's funny because I would give duty comber because got nominated for season and got the globe you know so it's like okay. We've acknowledged Andro but jody comber is just so incredible on that show. I wonder if there will be like a more a bigger groundswell of support for Sandra though just like because she didn't win yet last year but her nomination was such a big deal and was so meaningful to so many people and I don't know if that might put more fire behind. Signed her this year. Absolutely I mean it could very well could <hes> there's so many factors that play I think the narrative of in the lead actor category the narrative of like is this finally Bob Odenkirk year after having been nominated so many times upset it would be really fun if that were the case so I learned my listened last year because like everyone was like okay. It's finally Matthews's year and I was like Nah. They're never GONNA do it. They're just never going to do it and then they did. It and I was like okay I get on board the it's finally so and so's year narrative have absolutely not academies turned really receptive to us. Haven't they like they're listening like lick. The fact that Shits Creek and fleabag got as much attention as they did. I do feel like it's an we're really seeing more open academy. They're innovative <hes> yeah. If it's a if it's it's <hes> the finally his year narrative I would also like to put in a plug for Jonathan Banks and supporting actor because he's been doing such great work for so long as the man have to do and I have to say in this season. His art was devastating. If you guys saw better call solve the Germans and he had to kill one of the Germans and it was just you knew it was going to happen the whole time and it was still so heart-rending. He's amazing so yeah. If the game of thrones guys <hes> cancelled themselves out maybe then it will leave room for Jonathan Banks finally yeah I think Peter I think the year that I always harp on that Peter Damage one that I don't think he should have one is the year I really wanted. Jonathan based away this year. He gave his speech about his son and I was like no when in yeah and then petered English one and I'm like got one already but what are you doing here anyway. <hes> I WANNA call attention to one like hilarious category which is <hes> outstanding variety special prerecorded <hes> and the nominees are Hannah Gadsby ninette homecoming a film by beyond say springsteen on Broadway <hes> Wanda Sykes her special not normal and last but not least Carpool Karaoke when Corden met McCartney live from Liverpool it just I think the reason lake it so much as I feel like it also just like net is such a like. It's like this weird stand up special. That's like also kind of performance are also kind of anti comedy and then there's homecoming like bay cello literally Bay Shelhah then there's springsteen on Broadway like like the I mean Bruce and then Carpool Karaoke and Wanda Sykes just rounding it out. There's a lot there. There's a lot in competition with each other T._v.'s weird there's also like I just WanNa note because I think it's so weird that one of game of thrones thirty two nominations for V._R.. Experienced created where you get to bite zombies. So you know Oh Jeez Oh unlike John I I think Jonathan Banks is also nominated for a better causal web series Yeah Better Call Saul employee training is nominated hack in Lebron's Brad City yeah yes that was it employee training and I was just like I don't even know he did this. Extra thing on the side but it's totally it's totally the emmys I believe that repulse drag race is nominated for like the show itself and then also for untucked which is like it's discussion show that always seemed like part of the actual show to me but I guess they're different enough that they can both be nominated for emmys. What a time to be alive what time adding a Lotta also got acting nominations for short form comedy drama series because it's a this is strange world out there also rent live is nominated opposite the Oscars and and the Norman Lear special rent life has six nominations from my question is is it for the dress rehearsal which aired or for the skidding? It's obviously for what aired but what a weird night that was yeah yeah rent nominated for most broken leg like how that's the weirdest category because it's just showing up guarantees you nomination like the Oscars didn't have a host nomination yeah I I wish that I could defend rent lives inclusion <hes> as a as a longtime rent person but no that was that should not be there. It was a special moment in time. Remember Jesus Christ superstar live got a bunch of acting nominations to so it could be more present that was is great. Jesus Christ superstar actually was live yeah and had John Legend good performances and you have Valentine not jumping on a table not to get too far are into rent line. Do you guys want to close it up. I just picking some personal favorites like we'll have lots of time to some for who we want but as of today who showed up on the list that you're gonNA say all right. It will make my heart leap if you manage to to win for this way. I don't know if you know the this about about me Katie but I'm a big fan of Allen's work on Gema thrown. I've never heard you discussed the first time anyway. I'm just GonNa like from now until September twenty second. I'm just going to like be writing Allen's Allen's name over and over again and like my journal so they now the m. e. voters read that I think so I sent a copy to them. I started freshman. I'm picking my personal like cheering section for my Rudolph as the judge and the good place who's who's a nominating the guests actress in comedy series opposite. Fiona Sean Kristin Scott Thomas for fleabag Sancho Emma Thompson for hosting S._N._l.. And then Jane Lynch on Marvelous Mrs Mazel <hes> it's kind of a murderers row. I have no idea what my odds would be but I love her on the good place so much yeah I'm GonNa put in a vote for the good place itself <hes> which got into the comedy series category <hes> It's the best it certainly the best comedy on Network Television One of the best comedies on TV period <hes> and also I will plug Ted Danson <hes> offer lead actor and a comedy because he's so great the comedy lineup is so good commies right now are so much better than dramas. I'm just GONNA say it <hes> I would say that I'm very excited for Bocek horsemen to be nominated and I hope that it I don't know oh I i. I don't actually know the stakes of the best animated <hes> category brace this year but I created is so the stakes are not that I guess we're probably not that high but if they could win I would love that. I'm also just really excited for Catherine O'Hara. It'd be nominated to return turn to this continuing Catherine O'Hara at the emmys thing but I just think that it's amazing. I would love it if she I mean she's not actually GonNa win but I would. I'm just really happy she's there. I'm also really excited. That Stephen Route was nominated <hes> for Berry because it's his first <hes> acting being award ever had. I'm sorry if I already said how it's News Radio Stephen Route. It's just I I mean nomination it which is insane. It's the same way that Henry Winkler right. It's like it's interesting that this is like bill haters. We'll houses like finding serve actors and yet also like Oh my God Steven Rue totally deserves an emmy like this is amazing who him or no Hank I you care again is so good. He really I the his it's so weird what he's doing and it so so good. I don't know it's hard because also like Berry requires its actors to be funny and then also to be quite serious and I think that Anthony and makes me laugh the most but Stephen route like sends fear down my spine in that show <hes> so those are both good performances but I don't know exactly which is which well they'll always Tony Hill so yeah that's ever to lose the least I don't know the Kaminsky method. Keep surprising so who knows what eleanor can might do in the lineup to they are not the Globes though thank you probably we can just keep that in mind yeah we do keep having to remind ourselves to that because I think the Globes of take up a lot of mental real estate on these things for some reason <hes> I was really surprised in happy that Margaret Qualley was nominated for Fossey Vernon. I just spotted that and I just wanted to say something about that. She was great it on the leftovers <hes> and she was really good is an raking in ranking my saying that raking in <hes> in Fossey Verdon and I just <hes> we're going to be seeing more of her because she's in once upon a time in Hollywood <hes> so it's Kinda cool that she's <hes> she's going to a moment. I was thinking that Fussy Verdon didn't have as many acting nominations as it showed but then I couldn't figure out like meaning you've got like morbidly buzzes petty show. Yes ski like I don't know. Is there anyone he might major snubs there or it. I just want more fussy. Verdon like Hilary Lindh lin-manuel Maranda didn't make it in for his one minute cameo as Roy Scheider <hes> which I am shocked by considering the <hes> various awards giving bodies propensity for awarding Lin Manuel Miranda for showing up I think he's already got an emmy though so he's on. He's on his way to an EGO regardless. I think all this missing is the Oh how <hes> I thought that bender snatch getting nominated was interesting. I don't know if we WANNA talk about that but it's interactive. I mean has that happened before. Have we nominated an interactive game ish thing into <hes> T._v.. Movie category before I don't think we have is interesting. That netflix had the money to put behind it to kind of. Maybe overcome any concerns anybody had about it. I don't know that the T._V. movie category was Super Competitive this year if indicated by my dinner with survey movie I completely forgot existed getting in there so maybe it was like something people had heard of and they were willing to overlook any like weird structural stuff at least makes more sense there than previous Black Mirror episodes somehow getting nominated as T._v.. Movies rich the when they were episodes of a T._v.. Show it's is true bender snatch at least does stand alone however it also has several branching endings and not really a plot so I don't know it's hard to say right. It's kind of interesting. I feel like it's the academy going postmodern all right well we will be talking about the emmys plenty between now and and <hes> September when the Emmy awards are handed out and <hes> so knit Hillary. Thank you for joining us to help sort through all this. There's so many things we didn't even get to talk about which I guess is what the next few weeks or four in the meantime you can find all of us writing about the emmy nominations fanfare dot COM <hes> and you can define little gold men on twitter little Goldman and on our own I met Katie Rich Joanna Jerus- and Sonia Sonia Suraya and Hillary filibuster with to ours this week's episode was edited and produced by Brett Fuchs and.
Emmys Season Is Here! (Yes, Really)
"Hello and welcome to little men the award season podcast from Vanity Fair. It's such an honors present this next award nominees. The group goes. And I can't deny the fact that you like me. On the. State. Light. You guys won best picture. I'm Katie rich. The deputy editor Vanity Fair dot com. And I'm here with our senior writer drin- Robinson. Hi, Katie our chief critic, Richard Lawson. Hello and joining us in studio again, we have our TV critic, Sonia Seraya. Hey, so we brought you in here because it's kind of a quiet time for movies out there. There's like a couple of things of interest. There's just the avengers looming in the Reisen. But it's a really busy time for television. There's so much stuff from hearing in the next couple of weeks, partly because of EMMY qualification which we can get into. So basically, I see d I needed help like shoveling through the pile of prestige shows that are debuting. I I don't know as a person who has to watch all of these. If you feel like you're just buried under a giant pile right now buried, which sounds like bury a sitcom on HBO. Yeah. I do a little bit. But I think also as as we'll talk about there's like a cream of the crop that like becomes really apparent as in. There's a whole lot of stuff out there. But only a handful of things you actually need to pay attention to yet kind of. Although things are a little different this year because of the way HBO has changed its strategy. There's just like so many more H B O shows in contention for the Emmys this year than there are typically are, but yeah, I feel like it makes it possible to focus on stuff, but it comes at the expense of everything else. So what are you focusing on you brought up berries that the is that top of mind for you right now. I yeah. Like love berry much the second season the first episodes of the second season, and I felt like really on the hook for it killing eve, obviously like was excited for season two. And then I saw the first two codes what blew me away and Fosse Verda and on FX the a Bob Fosse miniseries. The television event of the sentence, basically the television event of the century. It's so much fun. It's so much fun to like have dancing, like sexy musical theater dancing. There's a it. Feels like there's a lot of fun stuff this year to talk about bridging. And you guys have been over it. So watching lake very very deep and game of thrones world. So in new stuff comes up that isn't about like killing for pelts. Like does it feel like a relief? Well, I mean Fossey Verdon is kind of about killing and for pill. Yeah. No, definitely, you know, I it's fun to just kind of pick your head up. And you know, I've also been so, you know, in movie lands all Oscar season, and then kind of the residual after so, yeah, it's nice to kind of tuck into something. That's, you know, many hours long and really interesting. I agree with Sonia. The berries great. I'm really liking Fossey Verdon. And you know, veep is good as ever. So there's you know, there's there's exciting stuff for me. I'm not necessarily writing about everything. But as just casual viewer, it's it's a good time to be a TV watcher Joanna, what are you excited about that isn't thrones related? Yeah. I mean, I thought the return of veep was really really good. And I did this interview with Dave Mandela at TC, the Showrunner veep, and he was talking to me a lot about how the luxury they have of doing this political comedy is the fact that they're reality Trump doesn't exist. And so it's like he called it. A Trump freeze though. And I was just like, yes. And that's a huge relief because like as much as. As you think were occupied game of thrones. I feel like we've all been like hooked on the Trump show for two years with like a massive hangover. And the fact that comes along after a longest absence because of Julia Louis Dreyfuss is health, and we kind of forgot what political comedy was without like, the Trump shadow over it. And of course, the Trump shadow is there. And of course, it is reacting in some ways to the Trump administration. But it's nice. You know, it's nice not to be on that like SNL. Let's just regurgitate what Trump is saying sort of a cycle, and you have something a little more broader, and that will be more resonant once this is all over if that makes sense. So this is one of the things that like I feel like I got off a little bit. Because of the whole Trump factor of it. Like, I don't know if I wanted to watch political stuff at all in like my precious leisure time. Like, I mean, veep has always been kind of like biting in addition to being funny like how's that balance working these days, especially with their last season coming up like I wondered if they would suddenly start getting sentimental as they wrap up these characters they are not getting sentimental as they wrap up these kinds. I think the last season did end on like, a surprisingly emotional note for this Lena character because she had you know, she makes this awful in everyone's mind decision to run for president again and had to put aside the actually kind of nice life that she had built for herself outside of of office. And the idea was like she couldn't let herself have this nice thing because she's just is who she is. And she's a political creature, and she needs to be in the mix of it and sort of. So what you're watching her do? Now is this slow motion bad life decision. Right. And yeah, I don't think it's softened. But there is that sort of a motion resonance that hangs over it more than just some of the antics that we've seen in season past. And I think also, you know, aside from Trump what we can kind of look at it. Now as like, it's some weird distorted reflection of the democratic primary scramble that's happening right now. This is what I was just thinking, and I hope to hell. That that's not actually what's happening behind the scenes with all these people who were kind of relying on to rescue the world, but it is still grimly funny to just watch everyone be so petty and because the show I mentioned this reviewed the first three episodes of the of the new season the show is really never been about policy. It's not it's not a show that's kind of mocking grand or political ideals. It's much more petty and small than that. And so I think because of that you can. Yeah. You can kind of infer stuff that you know, connections to the real world, but you can also just like. Wade into something that I think I called like it's kind of like a weird, meta competency porn. It's not like watching people good at their jobs. It's watching people who are really good at playing people who are terrible at their jobs, and there's just something really satisfied the cast just clicking. So. Well, I believe we'll have an interview with the com. Sqi coming up a suit on this podcast, by the way. Good tease. Yeah. And the the other thing about the that David L pointed out is true is like when that show started. It was so sort of wickedly delicious for us because really? Ooh, this backstage glimpse. A we can't believe people actually say this stuff they behave. So badly is amazing. And he's like the backstage though, now is gone in American politics. Right. We see the backstage all the time. We see it tweeted out like every day. So that that same degree of like, I can't believe people are actually this awful is like not in our mindset anymore. And so there has to be something else. And I think there is I think there's plenty else there. I think that the joy, I get from veep is that they're all terrible people. But what they do which is like bad for America like arguably, but I seems all really bad for America. But like they don't seem happy by like they are actively making themselves miserable. Like sort of like, you were saying Joanna like Selina leaves this life. That is nice like she has a grandchild that she refuses to appreciate like or acknowledge or anything like, it's it's just a prop. It's all it. All it all serves the slight political theater that is like vicious and terrible. So that like is comforting to me I like to think about I like to think about Donald Trump being miserable. You're not the only ones. The other. So talking about Barry, which also is the half hour comedy airing on HBO right now, I kind of have the opposite concern about its second season as veep. We're like it felt like the end and wanna Barry, which I love like really got dark like it got darker and darker as the season went on and kind of watching this character like grop with his demons, and I was curious about how it would spring back into comedy potentially at the beginning of the season. They still have Henry winklers. So it can't be so bad. But anyway, how how did they pull that off? I think that it's partly due to like berries own complete denial about everything that like they just like the Gulf between the way he wants things to be. And the way things actually are is so wide that it is. I mean, it is very funny like the whole first episode. They're acting classes opposed to put on oh my God the front page that comedy the front page. And so for the whole episode berry who is who is killed a per his his skilled person at the end of the second of the first season killed his acting teachers girlfriend who is. The police detective is investigating. Okay. So she's literally killed this person. But is like in this old timey like forties, like newspaper outfit with like a press thing in his fidora. And is like practicing these like ridiculous hokey lines. I really worked for me. I was like this is this is delusions delusional. Yeah. It's a dark show for sure. But I think that what the first season does fascinating Lee. And the second season continues on is as the first season. Goes you see the show kind of tells you. Oh, did you think that he was like the hero of the story? Like, he's the terrible. And probably associate path. And so the second season kind of like reminds you of that. And then everyone's in this kind of depression slash kind of panic, and and it's really more the whole circumstances of the show, even though the characters within it are taking it very seriously. So it's a really tricky line to walk, and you know, it's one I think that weeds tried to do failed a lot and succeeded others other times, and there are some quirky stuff in berry that I think works maybe only three quarters of the time. But it's still a fascinating show in Bill haters, great, Anthony, Kerrigan is great as a kind of bizarre gangster. Stephen root is excellent as berries, go to former hitman boss and Winkler, obviously is wonderful. I everyone's good. It's just it's just like a really compelling and dark show. I don't know how many seasons this kind of tension can be sustained for. But for now, it's the second season is surprisingly working. Well, Sarah Goldberg who plays Sally who is Berry's girlfriend has a lot more do in the season. And oh good. I that was the problem. I have with the first one. Yeah. She's I mean, well, the the whole joke of the first season is that she's so self obsessed that she can't pick up on all the red flags around this person. And like that kind of keeps escalating for part of season two. But then you begin to like, you just begin to explore character more and sort of realize again, the delusion. But this time the delusion of someone who like leaves their whole life behind them to go to Hollywood and pursue this acting career. Unlike the kind of narcissism that kind that fuels that but also like where that may come from. I really thought like just in one episode in the third episode. You just saw her change so much, and it was like, oh, this there's so much more to this performance than I had originally anticipated. So it's kind of fun to see those dimensions to Richard. You talked about not knowing how far berry could go with the premise that it has. And they feel like that was a something brought up a lot about killing eve which had its like blockbuster first season last year. And I think. Many people there's been pieces written about it. And then just generally in Twitter like maybe it should have just been one season of. But it's back, and I'm really excited to see what everyone is wearing. But I I'm curious if the premise manages to sustain itself for an entire second season of this. Who seen it Sony seen it? I have seen it. Yeah. Well, I actually kind of made a choice that I've made with some other shows. I'm not going to watch it because I think the I was so perfect that I don't I don't like I'm not going to watch a second season fleabag, and it's not just abandoning British with it. And I promise. From if. I'm going to push back on the fleabag thing. We'll get to that mortgage. I probably will get to them at some point. But I just for right now. I'm just sort of like still savoring the first seasons, and I've had many shows kind of sour in my in my estimation of them in in the second season. So I'm sort of experimenting and seeing can my love of a first season be sustained, even while people are watching more and more new episodes. I don't know so far. It's okay. But maybe I'll put it as it premiered yet. I'll say this. So I've seen both like I've seen a few episodes and he's into killing eve. And I will just say this that like, I I don't I don't dislike it, I like it. I do agree with the takes that like, okay? The first season had this element of surprise. Or like, you know, we didn't we'd never seen Jody comb reduce think the what she does in this show. We had seen Senator OB great in other things. Obviously, you know. So I think I think it has a high bar to clear in order to like match what the first season did for us. And I'm not sure quite clear that with fleabag. Which will get to. I think it sails right over that barred into the stratosphere. So I think I think you're right to be cautious, Richard. And I am curious what what Sonia thinks of killing you've season too. I mean, so I only saw the only sent out to episodes. And I really like in this case, I really wish I could've seen more because it's so hard. I mean, the first two thirds of killing the first season weren't very good indication. I think of what that season was going to be. But. I was not sure if it was going to pull off. I mean, I feel skeptical about season two's, especially ones that like feel rushed to capitalize on some buzz. But I really liked where it went. I mean, I'm I'm trying to think if I can describe it in any way, basically there were a couple of set pieces that like like a whole of one of the ways that villain L tries to survive after like, there's multiple ways like after after what happens in the finale likes of Sandra. Oh, like stabs or eve stops, right? And then she like staggers out, and like, you see her surviving and the way she survives is just so to me, it was so ill assertive. And so it really capitalized on Villanova's whole thing of being like the charming feminine teenage girl, girls type, but then also like being really deadly on the other side. And I just I it was really fun to see her in the position of being like. Being desperate being helpless. As even when she was in the prison. Philadel- was really scary the whole time, but this really feels like she's she's been knocked out of her comfort zone. And then Sandra. Oh, as eve is doing this whole like guilt thing because she feels like she can't talk about what she did with Villanova. She wasn't supposed to go to Paris in the first place, and then like her doing that like really messes her up. I mean, at least at first and I just like seeing Sandra do that. So I feel optimistic, but I definitely, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. You know, it's a fleabag doesn't premier until may joining you. Brought it up is something that sales the bar for the first season the second season. So we'll talk more later when it's supposed to premiering, but gives us a tease about fleabag. Well, I mean, I think it's worth talking about the fact that he'd be Weller bridge who also wrote in co-created adapted killing eve the first season at least she's not the right around the second season. Then I think she doesn't approach these things. Without that heavy skepticism that Richard talks about because she is said publicly and loudly that this second season fleabag is her putting this character to bed forever. She, you know, this is a character that she did on stage before you know, she did any TV. This is a character that she has performed at the Edinburgh fringe festival, and then I believe she's what she's currently doing it in New York or is about to or just finished doing it. Anyway, she's doing a little run of the original fleabag show on the stage in New York. And so she's like she's done it. And she's like, okay. I have this idea for how to like put flea back to bed, and then I'm done with that. This is the thing that launched my career, and then I wanna move on and do something else. And I think that intentionally is really really clear in the second season, which just sort of takes what's so great about the first season. And then breaks it in a way that is really a emotionally true to the character. And I will be as vague as possible and. The other thing that it benefits round. And we'll talk about about this more when we get closer to win. It actually airs is Andrew Scott is brought in as sort of like there's there's a lot of great people in in the second season Fiona Shaw from killing even the second season. Kristin Scott Thomas in the second season, Bill, blah. But but inter Scott is brought in you know, that people might know as more Moriarty from the Sherlock Sherlock is brought in to be this like foil to her and he's just like a live wire. He's perfect. And so it's just it's a short season. I think it's probably what six episodes, maybe eight, and I think it is just like a very intentional planned goodbye. And I feel like we need more of that just sort of like intentional contained storytelling in their peak TV when we're just constantly like inundated by things that outstay their welcome saying that a certain series. It's airing its final season soon may not have planting so intentionally. No it is. I mean. Well that that is just like trying desperately to wrap up a saga. That is so long in the making do you know what I mean like that's a different kind of game. Crema thrones is much more unwieldy than fleabag. Yeah. You couldn't have wrapped that up in season. You know what I mean? So like, I think they're doing I think in fact, their attempts to get it done is, you know, Richard. And I've talked about this on the still watching game of thrones. We wash podcasts that we're doing their attempts to get it done in any reasonable time line is what has prompted some of the like, I dunno broader Suk strokes, storytelling that they're doing the later seasons of game of thrones. Sonja? I wanted to go back. You mentioned something about like, a new strategy that HBO is employing, and they have more shows in the running can you can you kind of unpack that just a little bit. Or is there something to unpack there? I think that the only thing to unpack there is that it seems as if HBO has ramped up its distribution schedule. I'm saying that as without really based on the fact that you know, they changed ownership. It's now run by AT and T they've new the new head and Bob Greene Blat based on the information that came out of whatever that strategy shift was there was this lake. There was this rumor, you know, early in the year that HBO is going to be more like Netflix, and I don't know if that's exactly true. But it does seem it does seem it does seem true that there are so many H B O shows that are debuting just the spring alone untucked of what was already in contention. That you could fill out like every category nearly every EMMY category with just really good HBO contenders. That are all going to be competing against each other. And I just think that there's something interesting in a little a little overwhelming about it be just because it's like just because as someone who likes all of these shows having them all stacked on top of each other. Makes it hard to pick out one or two to be like, you know, these are the winners. These are the ones that we should focus on when it feels like a lot of really good things are going to be in contention. Like, for example, like, you know, my, my brilliant friend, which was the Atlanta Ferranti adaptation, I think would have been like a more serious contender for awards in a different year. But I forgot that it happened literally has like fall. Yeah. Exactly. Like, it's it's a they built that entire town on a sounds Tange. Like, there's it's crazy how much they did. It was a as a foreign language show. I mean completely cast in Naples. They spent so much. Time and money on it. And it's just one of like fifteen to twenty shows that is than HBO's putting out like, you know, leaving never never land. Which is like the documentary side of things is also in contention. I mean, it's it's sort of what let me like sharp objects is eligible for this EMMY round, which is you know, from last summer say Tim Bill. Hey, yeah. It's I mean, so like another one that's coming out soon. So I mean, of course, there's game of thrones their succession, which was the summer. That's also in contention. Sharp objects veep. Berry didn't Silicon Valley happen this year to and then I feel like there's so many documentary stuff that is even a little bit all outside of my radar. But there was Elizabeth homes in Toronto's and leaving Neverland about Michael Jackson case against odd. Non Siad like these are sort of you know, major contenders. And then there's even more things that are still coming out. So not just gave it turns. But also, I guess like insecure I'm expecting to come out. Fairly soon and gentlemen, Jack. Which is. Oh, yeah. With Sally, Wayne. Like Sally, Wainwright who did Happy Valley. This is one of her passion projects that she's been working on apparently for like a decade. And it's like a period piece about lesbians, which is amazing. So my jam and it's based on truth based on a true figure, which is well, I mean and on top of high maintenance, which I know is like me and Richard both love that show. Like, how are all of these shows can flush out an entire like the half hour. I'm like that could all be H B O shows, and I would have a really hard time deciding which one the deadwood movie is also still coming with an eligibility. Actually, I think it is. I think it is looking at gold derby, the HBO stuff that is it's in its bananas. It's been in his how much is coming out in just a few months, and how much is all going to be in contention at the same time. And I mean, they exactly what some you're saying. They they have been plainspoken than the new regime at HBO has said like, okay, it's it's we've been known for quality all these years. Now, we're going to be known for quantity as well. And I think there's this fear that like, you know, the HBO if HBO puts its logo on something, right? You're like, okay. I know what that means. That means a certain level of prestige, whatever versus Netflix is throwing anything at the wall. Wall to see what sticks like, the Netflix flicks on something means nothing to me because it could be purchased favourite show fuller house or it could be, you know, Russia doll. You don't know you're gonna get with HBO. There was like this certain like sheen of like, you know, prestige to it than that. I think they're just less concerned with 'cause they're chasing the Netflix model. And I think you've heard this from people who both love HBO of worked at HBO is that they're really worried not even just what it looks like now, which as Sonia outlined is like already bananas. But what it's going to look like because like bear in mind that HBO just really puts almost a one hundred percents of their original program is just on Sunday nights right occasionally, occasionally, part two will be on Monday. But that's that's been HBO is like we do something on Sunday. It's going to be great. It's why you work on Sundays. You why haven't had a Sunday off in like five years? You know? So like. So but now they're like what if we do programming another nights? And I think all of us, you know, Sonya maybe included because she watches she diligently watches more television than all of us like are crying. I'm trying to keep up with like everything that they have played. They're not alone in this sort of like chase the Netflix model of flood the market, but I just because every every network in correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding HBO needs as we move increasingly to like these streamer options for how we watch things HBO increasingly needs to make you feel like HBO go the app HBO. Go is essential to you. And then you can only pick one it has to be HBO go, and they were they felt assured of that for the last however, many years because they had game of thrones. Even even like, even if you have thrones gone a year you like maybe didn't drop your HBO subscription game of thrones is coming back, and this is the biggest show in the world. But that is about to end, and you can talk to me all day long about spinoffs. But like HBO is sweating and worried about their privacy without game of thrones. And so the answer seems to be flood. The sun more. What feels good right now. At least with this with regards to the strategy is that the show's all still feel good like all of these things are coming out on top of each other. But they still feel I still feel good about like berries. Great veeps. Great brilliant. My brilliant friend is great succession sharp, objects all like, high quality. But I don't know if they can continue that with the pace being so elevated, which I think is like their big challenge right now. I'm really struck by the difference between a Ostra strategies, and EMMY strategies were like HBO clearly they wanted me enough like they went to compete on volume. But they care about me. He's like they need the prestige to keep all of this going and the idea of like, you know, if you were focused features on you're just throwing a hundred things at the wall to hope one of them would stick for an Oscar that would never work. But the way I think Netflix has really changed for me live TV we're like you have to prove that you're gigantic like Joanna, I'm saying you have to have your app beyond their and then hopefully, you can also spend enough money to get something in there that works proced- wise. But I wonder how sustainable that is like Netflix has endless. VC money. I don't know that HBO does they have AT and T, I guess, but you know, they're not going to spend forever on the deadwood movie. Have you guys noticed that when you watch anything on like a streaming service? If there's ads so many of the ads are for other things to watch this is happening to other like other things to watch on that service or on different services. Like if I watched like like if I'm watching something on comedy central's app. I'll get advertisements for like Hulu shows or NBC sometimes NBC shows or I mean or or other things on on comedy central. Yeah. That's true too. Or h b o? I get advertised a lot of like, they're like, oh, you're in this niche, like here's more which I think speaks Joanna to a sort of what you're saying this like flooding the zone thing where it's like, oh like subscribe to this like, it has this thing that you like just reminding you just reminding you we exist. Yeah. Exactly. You need us. Don't remember that you need us actually the worst version of this? And I don't know if this happens. I maybe it's. Like my cable provider expanded. He does this. I don't know. But if you're catching up on a show that you follow behind on and you're watching old episodes. And then they give you like a ad for an episode. That's like wait on the line. And you're like, wait, are you showing me? No. Of the spoilers. Anyway. I wanted to talk about one other show that is not on HBO. Netflix. And maybe we can talk about what that means effects is coming out with their big Fossey Verdon mini series. We've talked about FX a lot in the past kind of its historical things with the people participate Simpson in American crime story last year, those are all under the Ryan Murphy umbrella, Brian Murphy has gone over to Netflix at this point the existence a fussy verdant say anything, but FX strategy other than that they want to stick with this like is this. They're kind of big post. Ryan Murphy, We don't need him. We can have something spot on her own statement. I think I think it's part of that the interesting thing about watching the show is like, you know, as you know, theater major theater nerd kid. I I'm like totally enwrapped even though the the shows actually mostly about making movies. But you know, it's all these kind of theater figures in it. And I think it's it's really compelling. It's very well acted. But I do have a question. Maybe you agree with me. So maybe you don't. As to who. It's really four beyond that pretty narrow audience. You know, like FX weirdly has built up an audience that's sort of like like sons of anarchy, and and you know, other kind of tough gritty shows. But also, they have American horror story in pose and the assassination of Gianni, Versace cheese. So there's a sort of I know queer audience may be involved and. Know, I think Fosse were and definitely obviously falls on that side of things. I'm just curious like how big the audience for it is actually going to be given that it doesn't have the Ryan Murphy imprimatur on it, and yet is sort of in the same vein as some of his past projects for the network. Yeah. I mean, it does sort of seem to me like they're hoping that they can keep whatever audience came to FX for Ryan Murphy, because to my mind effects was like a like a bro kind of network, you know, for like a super long time with like, you know, justified an Archer sons of anarchy, and like now Mayans as you said and like a lot like it's always sunny in Philadelphia like starting FX like things like that. But then like they definitely began to change in the the Americans which was like super critically lauded and eventually got recognized by the Emmys was like never really had audience numbers that paid off. But people like critics liked it. And so they kind of held onto it. And then. While that was happening. You know, Ryan Murphy was establishing this empire. Which was like, I think a lot of it did bring like a queer audience. So I it sort of seems to me like Fosse Verdon is like do do we still do are. We a player in this space. Like, can we still do it? And what I what I like about that is that at least they're giving us a really good show to work with. And maybe that that will that will pay off for them. But it does seem a little bit like a gamble, especially because it is so insiders I was talking to Hillary uses my editor about Fosse version, and there are a lot of references that I like didn't get when I was watching it because I'm not, you know, I'm not a theater nerd theater major. But I still really enjoyed it. Because it was performances and dancing, and I could follow the plot. Well enough and at and I felt like I was learning something about that that era on Broadway. So that was kind of fun. But yeah, I wonder I wonder how how many more Easter eggs, I'm gonna miss as I keep going what I've seen so far is that it feels like a an interesting writing of the record for Gwen Verdon who's Michelle William's character. Because like Bob Fosse, like, you know, probably if you don't know much about the you still know who vague idea of who Bob Fossey is and you can like do a jazz hand and be like I understand but Fossey with Glenn Verdon. I think you have to go like a couple years down into knowing about musicals and musical theatre. You know, if you've seen the film version of Damn Yankees, she was considered I think like, you know, a stage star. But as as the show quickly gets into was maybe not considered like photogenic enough to be a movie star. And the the other thing that the the show quickly get into. So I don't think this is a spoiler is just sort of like how much what Bob Fosse did for. Work was a collaboration between himself and Gwen Verdon and how much her legacy just got lost. And and and like his own sort of petty and secure masculinity around the attention that she received at the time. I think that's like if it reminds me a lot of the people vs OJ and sort of us looking at Marcia Clark again in a different way. Obviously like whenver and was never like vilified the way that Marcia Clark was. But like, it's a similar sort of correcting of the record, which I which I appreciate in in all the other musical because you know, Katie, and I've been really excited for the show because we're big musicals fan, and I've been like sending Katie YouTube clips of Fossey stuff, and she's like, I watched that one even helping me my education, though, I'm go on the people who like has like love musicals, my whole up. I didn't know who couldn't Vernon was like I didn't have the level of research. And it like you're saying it's really easy to overlook her legacy in this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm excited for. It was so funny because before the show was announced I spent a couple of days with friends like a couple years ago, just going down these various YouTube alike, wormholes of Bob Fosse stuff. And you could do that yourself at homeless and earth. You don't know about bouncy is amazing research for the I mean, you can watch whole movies, obviously. But like if you don't want to just wanna watch like so of his choices choreography, and then go launch from there and watch like what beyond say took from Bob Fosse what Michael Jackson took for Bob Fosse, and like how much like, and it's not just like inspired by its direct moves lifts from. And how much that has impacted like what we think of as dance throughout the years. It's not just like musical theater dance. It's like our culture of dance is so much Fossey in in many, many ways, and the Paula Abdul music video cold hearted snake which is obviously a classic. So. Check out the Fossey legacy be careful because watching Bob Fosse in Gwen Verdon videos on YouTube. That's just a gateway to Jordan Peterson and getting red pill. That's. That's. Slippery slope. But yes, something I really appreciate about the show is that while it does. Absolutely. You know, give more context for you know, the brilliant mind that was Gwen Verdon. It doesn't make Fossey this kind of horrible anti hero. Just like nightmare to watch. There are moments where you just wanna like push him ten flight of stairs because he's just so annoying. But like he, but I think it's both the writing in San Rockwell's performance there is at the very least like some the the roundedness of a real human there. You know? And I appreciate that. Because I think a lot of times it can be I don't tend to like bio-pics about troubled creative men because I think a lot of the time you're just watching a real asshole for two hours, and this there are moments where that that could be that is true. But I think that there is a it's a little more textured than that, which I really appreciate. And I also think I kind of tweeted about it last night. Actually, I was like I kinda wish the show is just called Verdon because we shall Williams is so good in the role. And it's kind of a weird sight cousin to what she was doing all the money in the world. But I think it works better here in terms of what the performance like his the characters don't seem to have anything in common the characters nothing in common. It's just an. Affectation of kind of mid-century kind of voice and bearing in a sort of, you know. I mean Verdins life was not patrician from the from the outset certainly. But like, you know, that that kind of maybe slightly affected. Wealthy bearing subtle though. It's it's really well done, and you know, in Rockwall is good too. But I think I've seen that character before I've seen a performance at that before. Whereas Williams is doing something that feels new to me for what it's worth something. Interesting about the production to is that Nicole Fosse who Bob Fosse Gwen Vernon's daughter, who's a character as a child was a creative consultant on the show. She's like doing a little bit of press for them too. So there is a as you were saying Richard like Bob Fosse makes mistakes that but he's not this like monstrous figure either I think there's a lot of love for both for both people and for the relationship they had with each other this really fruitful collaboration. And you can I think you can see a lot of the the affection there to one last thing that I wanted to have about Michelle Williams performance. And they also message Katie about this on the side as we were watching his like she. Advocates set of I believe I could be wrong, but a set of fake teeth to look more like when Vert and did and like navigates them beautifully of. I'm just gonna like say that maybe the this is the set of fake teeth that we should pay attention to this this words year. And then the other thing that I wanted to say is like something that's interesting about the Bob Fosse figure as tortured artists into hero. But not but nuanced that we've seen before is. It's it's fun to see something like this this kind of like frustrated masculinity in the world of musical, theater and dance. Because like, you know, that is like the interesting thing about Fosse is that he has this leg much cheese mo- thing to him in this in this world of musical theater that people like think is not is not wreaking with cheese mo-. You know what I mean? And that's that's just like a kind of fascinating dynamic. Yeah. I've been I was someone was tweeting about just like Bob bussey as someone who would be. Suld by current culture, immediately and all that jazz exists out there as ample evidence of why he would not work in modern society. So I'm curious if this has anything to refrain that like a C, so as we mentioned, the top of this show, one of the reasons that there's this huge glut of a good TV right now is that the Emmys eligibility deadline is June. I so much like with the Oscars about how all of the big movies will come out in the fall. So the fresh in people's minds a lot of these vix shows will come back at the same time and try to really make their case for nominations looking at last year's nominees like Martin Luth says Mazel and game of thrones were the big winners less time. They are both back in the running just kind of looking at the EMMY racist year as overall thing are you guys feeling optimistic about what Mike through kind of resigned to the stuff that's going to get awarded over and over again where where do things stand with this next awards race. We're gonna watch. Well, I feel like with both veep and game of thrones ending. They're kind of going to eat up a lot of of bandwidth. You know? Uh-huh. And I feel like a lot of times with the Emmys like, you know, the triumph is getting the nomination and getting recognized because there are so many things to be, you know, like I like in the mix like I don't think that, you know, beloved high maintenance will get in there. I don't think the other two will get in there. But like, maybe we can hope for that. But yeah, it kind of feels like this is going to be one. Like Sonia was saying dominated by HBO. And by those two shows in particular. Yeah, I think that like if there was a time for the Emmys to be like, maybe not all game of thrones everything it was last year. It was last year. We gave it turns have been gone for like a year. People barely remembered in stuff like that in the leg. If you look at the win like the game of thrones producers themselves or sort of like, oh, really? You know, our own Peter de glitch stability was like, really, okay. You know what I mean? Or I think the first year they won was the madman's last year. And they were like, really, okay. I think I think we just have to say, okay. A game with Ron sweep there's like acting categories that I care about specifically when it comes to game of thrones. I think we'll have to wait and see what this final season give those particular actors. Reading for the hardest will like lead a hit. He doesn't have an EMMY game of thrones. Like, Peter Gingrich has all the arguments thrones and like much love to Peter Dink Lynch. But like, Lena Hiti Costa WALDO Alfie Allen. That's my like outside are like. You know? That's that's I think we're things could get interesting because it's always been a little tricky with game of thrones. Because it's an ensemble of sorts. So it's hard to like pluck out a lead, and the people who are the defacto leads now or maybe not they're stronger performers. But yeah, I just I think that that's going to be as you say taking up a lot of the space or it's just like a foregone conclusion. And so then like, what are the other categories? We were like, okay. Maybe there's a there's an actual race here. You know? Yeah. I mean, I think that I think you guys are totally right. Like, drama and comedy both of those categories are so overpopulated, and it also are both very likely to be swept by these two shows that are ending, but I've been beloved by the Emmys voters and audiences. Limited series has been might be more of a tossup. I we've got two shows were Patricia Arquette is like doing really good performances that are both going to be eligible to run against each other. Which is the act on Hulu and escape it down more on Showtime. And then there's also a sharp objects may be in the mix there. Although that hasn't done any the hasn't done any awards at all it felt for so long that limited series for for several years. It seemed like a limited series where all the action was happening. But it sort of seems like a lot of new shows have pushed back towards the traditional categories because you know, fleabag berry or both comedies and killing eve is, you know, classic drama. So I I mean, I don't know it's hard to imagine anything else. Breaking through the the unified front of the VPN game of thrones. But certainly a lot of shows are trying, but that's what I seem to think about like what Richard was saying where the nomination is the reward if your watch. The good place, and you've been like loving with Kristen bell is doing like, you know, she's probably not going to be. Julia Louis Dreyfuss, but you can root for her to get the nomination to get in there. Like, I felt that way about glo and Betty gilpin last year, there is this kind of cheerleading you can do for your favorite shows because the way that P TV works like you can feel like you're the only person paying attention to the work. This person's doing right. Yeah. Remember when Taty Alam must Lonnie one those nominations for orphan black, partly for them. Yeah. Yeah. The the internet campaign machine can work. Get your get your tweets going. Okay. Hashtag EMMY for Alfie Allen. Wait is this your prediction that the on's going to have a lot to do in this last season because I feel? This spoiler. That's just I think I re- watching the entire series. I think alcohol and has been the most overlooked of a great performance in who from wait Richardson's you've been doing your your watch too. I'm gonna know who is the game of thrones person you want to see Justice awarded finally the actor who plays Oli VAR the male prostitute. Rewarded in handsomeness? I have to agree with Joey on on ahead Hiti. I mean, she's been so the center of the show for so long and is giving a very nuanced performance. So yeah, that would be exciting for her. And I feel like that. She would be the only woman who's one from that show. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's just petered English who's one who? Okay. In the acting categories. She's been nominated, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think she gave like a really good, you know, like one of those all time classic reaction shots to losing last year. Just 'cause she's great has amazing says of humor so the cameras honors. He's just sort of like, oh, dart or whatever. But we are going to be talking about the a lot. Because as I mentioned, we're kind of an acquired a period for movies Emmys is really heating up. So we'll have a couple of weeks talk about some of the shows that are out talked to some of the people get into some awards handicapping. So we can look forward to lots of obsessing about. I mean, he's like that. And maybe something for our personal Alfie Allen's. But in the meantime, I think that doesn't for this week's episode Sonia. Thank you for coming in. And joining us again, thanks for having me guys. So you can find all of us Vanity Fair dot com. Writing about things like the Emmys and game of thrones and killing eve and all kinds of other stuff, you can find his at little gold men where we tweeted the news this morning that we've been nominated for a webby, which is pretty exciting. We we're not above awards at all as evidenced by the existence of this podcast, so vote for us, please sue their egos. You can find us all on Twitter on our own two I met Katie rich Joanna Jim wrote this and Richard Rilo 's and Sonia, Sonia Suraya this episode was edited and produced by Brett Fuchs. This week's award for the best embodiment of TV critic during the era of peak TV goes Sonia Syariah.
Back to Monterey for Big Little Lies Season 2
"This episode is brought to you by true detective on HBO the third season of true detective was hailed by critics as a triumphant, return exquisitely layered and mesmerizing for your consideration and outstanding limited series and all other categories. Visit HBO dot com slash F. Y C. For more entre detective. Hello and welcome to little Goldman the award season podcasts from Vanity Fair. It's such an honors present this next to war on heroin, nominates. The screwed go. And I can't deny the fact that you like me. The. Mistake. Night. You guys won best picture. I'm Katie rich the deputy editor of Vanity Fair dot com, and I'm here welcoming back to the continent into their homes. We have our senior writer, JoAnne, Robinson, I Katie, and our chief credit cards Lawson. Hello. Are you? Speaking Greek now, Richard, actually. Also joining us as we have our TV critics when you Sarai, who is far as I know has just been doing her job and not on a fabulous vacation. But I wish. You can you can hear how jealous I am both Richard and Joanna of their vacations. We are all back together where there's, there's a lot talk about, including Oscar news. We learn about who this year's Andrei. Oscar winners are going to be. We'll talk about that briefly and do a quick check in on a little Goldman's number one favorite movie of all time rocket man, and then we're going to jump into the upcoming season premiere of big little lies which is back for its second season with its whole raft of amazing cast and Andrea Arnold directing and the second half of the episode. We're gonna share it interview that I did with Alan Yang, who is the creator of the series forever, which, I really liked when it aired last year and talk to him about how that series came together. The first of all Oscars the honorary Oscars are no longer handed out during the award ceremony, which is a bummer. They'll be handed a separate ceremony in the fall. And this year's honorees or really fascinating combination of people as usual, you've got David Lynch, the director of Mahala and drive and blue velvet and many others. You've got Gina Davis, the actress in kind of someone. I to her as being time's up before time's up, and then you have Lena Vert Mueller who was the first woman nominated for best director Oscar, and then the actor west duties chair, he American and has kind of done a lot for Dave American representation on screen. I think these are great nominees and winners. What about you guys? Yeah. I think that something about Gena Davis. You know she's an Oscar winning actress for the accidental tourist back in the eighties. You know, her sort of movie star has waned a bit perhaps, but maybe maybe both you know because the industry and what it how it treats women who pass forty. But also, maybe she was busy with other things, which has all this activism, she's been doing. She runs a women's film festival. I believe in Arkansas, you know, she's been doing a lot sort of quote unquote behind the scenes for years. And so, I think that, you know, the academy certainly is made up of people who, hopefully would would would recognize that more than the kind of casual movie goer would so to kind of highlight that work, I think, is really, really neat. And also, I think that west duty an actor who anyone who sees his face face. It's like, oh, yeah, I've seen him in next lanzi. But I wonder how many people actually know his name, so for him to get this kind of, here's his name, it's going to be, you know, engraved on the statuette like permanently. That's a pretty cool, too. So this is them doing some thoughtful things. I think, yeah, I think it's a I think it's great. Moment on our David Lynch as you all know, twin peaks, return was the greatest film of the Campell festival and controversial. I feel that right now. No. I mean, I'm a huge David Lynch fan and I love it. I love that. They're honoring him in. And like I can't wait to see how he receives being honored this way, like, that's as exciting as anything else, quick, sidebar I think I've talked about this on this very podcast before. But I just can't let a moment go by not talk about this. If you've not watched the YouTube video of David Lynch, makes keen wa it's just exactly what it sounds like David Lynch makes wa it's the weirdest best thing I've ever seen. So in honor of David Lynch's honorary Oscar pleased yourself a solid today and watch that, that video in his honor, and then wait for his acceptance speech to be even weirder more fun. So, David Lynch pigskin, was like those California than you've ever sat on this. Know here's the real mystery of that. It's like twenty minutes. It's really just him making keen wa, but I will point he steam some broccoli, and he has broccoli flow rates in like a trader Joe's bag, and I just so curious, why David Lynch buys his broccoli from trader Joe's and not, like a whole crowd like flow rates and a bag. I don't know. I have a lot of questions. Please watch this video just Google. David Lynch wa and enjoy yourself. I hope he makes broccoli and his governor's award speech. The governor's words will be on October twenty seventh, I guess, in keeping with the entire awards isn't being moved up a couple of weeks this little bit earlier than it has been in years past. So we'll be looking out for that hopefully sending somebody to it and watching whatever all these amazing people say, in their speeches. Okay now for a rocket man minute. The movies out, we've been anticipating it for so so very long Joanna or Richard, you told us about it from can join a you're talking to Richard van. Then you finally saw it for yourself. Use one time I rocket man, right? I do I saw I, I actually this is so on brand for local man. I like F Y C screening at the Arclight in Los Angeles, and tear Edgerton, Edison, was there, Jamie bell, was there by cells. How was their Dexter Fletcher was there and the CUNY was sort of a, a little bit of a shambles as these things sometimes are, but it was it was lovely to see the movie it lasts because I've been long into painting it. I am not like over the moon for rocket man to be honest with you. I I give it like a B plus, but I'm over the moon. For like a lot of rock in. It's. So it's when Wendy decides to be sort of an unabashed musical eight is so exactly my speed. And so fantastic. And Terron is incredible through the whole thing Jamie, bell fantastic to the whole thing Tate. Donovan turning in this like extremely like over the top great performance really, really big fan of all that, there's just, you know, when people were critiquing it out of canned for being a bit of a wrote a musical, bio-pic, those of the parts of the film that really kind of suffer. Elton John was, you know, an exec preserve how to real hand in this, and you can see him sort of working through, maybe working through some of the things the either still feels like frustration over or guilt over like his brief marriage to a woman or his relationship with his parents. And it those notes just can't get hit harder. I think than they need to, like, I think we get it, and then they keep going back to that. Well, and it's not like. Wanted to shut my brain off, enlisted Elton John music. I don't mind the modulating the like reality, and the darkness of what Elton John's life was when he hit rock bottom, and his relationship with substance abuse, and all that sort of stuff. But, like I feel like it just like the balance is off a little bit. And then as a result of film fills, a little over long that being said, you know, like whatever it was I didn't see him bohemian, rhapsody. I do see in rocket man in terms of just being lake transported by a transformative performance from Tarran editon. There are moments there's a sequence. There's a pinball wizard sequence. That's like a montage of like him in like all these famous Elton John stage costumes, and there are moments where I was like, did they see g Elton John's face onto tearing because, like he's just completely gone, and it's just out. And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of like a lot of rocket, man, Richard. Have you been sitting with it since you saw it at candidate it just finished from your brain. Well, it's the movie that surprisingly more than the Tarantino, Br probably because it's out now the people who. Me about, like my mom and other, you know, sort of friends, who were stateside and curious about about that movie, I think the Tarantino fizzle more distant still because it's not out till July. But yeah, I mean it's sat well with me. I find myself recommending it for a lot of the reasons that Joanna just said, you know, good performances, good music, whatever. You know, I think our issues with the wrote -ness of by musical bio-pics, clearly does not bother some other people. So I'm sort of kind of stayed away from that criticism when, when recommending it and I think that, you know, the money bears out. Interestingly, I mean it was it was number three at the box office in its opening weekend. It made twenty five million dollars against what's reported to be a forty million dollar budget. But was I'm sure it was more when, when marketing and all that is concerned, but that's a pretty strong showing it was up against the Ladan second week, and Godzilla king of the monsters, which was number one, but was a huge step down from Alaska Dila. So it was actually kind of a weirdly soft. We can at the box office, you know, in the middle of the summer, but there's rocket man. You know holding holding up pretty well number three. So I'll be curious to see if it has the legs that bohemian rhapsody. Did you know I guess that really depends on? Word of mouth, which it feels like so far after one weekend is pretty good. Yeah. Interrupts the a fifty one million I had somehow forgotten that's insane. So, yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess, expecting rocket meant to be to be bohemian. Rhapsody is kind of unfair since that movie was such a gigantic kit, but it does seem to be doing very well. I self I will say that I think I think recommend is a little bit more challenging than Mohegan, rhapsody because of like the darkness that it tries to grapple with, and I like committed for grappling with that. But like you know, if bohemian rhapsody excelled on word of mouth of people's sort of tapping their toes as they come out of the theater, and they're like, oh, I love Queen you love Queen. Let's go watch this Queen movie. I don't know that Elton John has exactly that same impact, but I think I don't know. I, I really hope people checkout tariffs performance because it's really something incredible. Well, I will see recommend eventually. So I will contribute toward that box office total. And the you know it over the top. Well, you, you typically spend fifty million dollars every time you buy movie ticket. Right. So. I have to buy out all of the movie theaters in one hundred mile radius that, I feel crooked watch, but I mean that's what it needs. It needs more money. If Taron Anderson is going to have any sort of legs, I think, in terms of her stuff because, you know, this is now six plus months out. So, you know, it's of crucial importance for that kind of movie that it be a resonant crowd success in order for the academy's take notice, and I don't doesn't feel like it's going to become that just yet it also has a much longer runway than bohemian rhapsody did, like human Ramzi with so fresh in everyone's mind when they were voting for things. So we shall see, I mean, you know it again. It it asked another granted the movie was coming out so soon. But it's like what does a big splashy can premier get for a movie, I guess we'll really find out the answer to that question. When Tarantino's movie opens in July the thing I will say, is that tension has been doing show, ole much press around this like so many interviews? He's so he's like he's going for it. And can you blame him and? The other thing I was gonna say this is a deeply unprofessional of me is I just I, I would like to recommend this movie purely on the strength of the fact that a Richard Madden sings be he sings in, like a silky, KOMO. So, like, you know, if you're game of thrones fan, and you wanna watch Richard Madden staying in a silky KOMO? No. Why wouldn't you? There you go. Professional recommendation for rocket, man. Okay. So let's talk about something that will also soon be available for everyone to see in the comfort of your own home. Big little lies returning to be oh, publicly, no one really expected it to be back after the first season since it seems like such a compact. A limited thing is back with all the original cast, plus Meryl Streep. Andrea Arnold has taken over as director this time. So you're going to be reviewing it for dot com. So we brought you into talk about it. So I guess just as a overall thing. Do you think it kind of makes the case that big little lies should have come back at all? Sort of does, but it's just because I really like spending time here. I mean I don't know right now. So they, they sent us three episodes to screen, and I three of seven right? I it's seven or eight, but I it maybe it's because the first season was seven for sure it's such a weird number. I don't know really weird. I am still trying to figure out if the story is going to go somewhere that is even nearly as satisfying as the first season, you know, only have a little bit to work off of, but as like pure soap opera, or as if that's what you wanna call it or just being totally invested in these characters and what they're going through. I'm like, very invested, you know, Meryl Streep comes in the season and she plays Celeste mother-in-law, and there's something really terrifying and intense about her whole relationship to, you know, her son, who's spoilers for the first season is now deceased also revealed to be. A rapist in an abuser. The Alexander's Carter the Alexander Skarsgard character and Celeste, who's Nicole Kidman is raising two sons of her own and trying to not replicate. The mistakes of the past. But also more in her husband, who was also bad to her its complicated Merrill's entire performance is like I mean, her character is just like everything is turned up to eleven like she nakedly despises. An Mattie, was Reese, Witherspoon character. She's very like really blunt and says, things that are inappropriate, and in this like very appearance focused, very wealthy environment. There's something really strange and off about her, but it's also like really delicious to watch her kind of mess with everything I was so struck like having watched the trailer, they made her look like she was going to come in and be like, threatening and powerful, like in this kind of what we think of is like Meryl Streep mode of where she has thority and she comes in is this weirdo. With this bad hair? She's got fake teeth, which I told you ran those very proud of noticing 'cause I'm usually really bad at noticing fake. So she's intimidating, but she's strange. She's got this like passive aggressive like a little old me, thing, going for her before she then like attack. So it was such a weird energy to bring to the show with all of these alpha women kind of already sizing each other up. But I think it's also a crucial energy. I mean in that. Shows that have a second season even if the second season was planned the whole time when it's been been such a phenomenon hit as big little lies was a word of mouth thing that people were watching week to week to get progressively, bigger numbers is there's obviously, the temptation of like we have to do more of the same because we have to deliver to the fans what they want. They, they want Reese, Witherspoon acting very type A and kind of nuts they want to call Kidman sort of hurt and fraud. And you know, and, and they want Laura Dern commanding and sort of overbearing, and that's all there in. I've only seen the first episode of the new season. And then here comes Meryl Streep. I mean, they jumped they'd dump her right in. I mean she like in, like Thursday, and there she is doing her thing, which I thought they would meet out her reveal a lot more, slowly. So I kind of appreciate that, that they just throw in with everybody else. And I think that, that weird energy is a necessary counterbalance to the writer. It's David Kelly once again, working with leeann were Moriarty, who wrote the original book, the impulse to be like, okay. Here's the fan service stuff. But here's also this new. New added element marking it as a new season, whether or not that will be successful. I have not yet seen, but I think that maybe this needed a lot of Meryl Streep right away, just to remind us that we're not being served the same meal. Just kind of reheated. You're totally right. I think I think that so with her addition, it becomes six women at the at the center of the story, and I think that what I'm sort of perceiving an and I don't think this is much of a spoiler is that, like, there's sort of two big themes that are being kind of dealt with, and you can sort of see, like a group of the characters are more focused on, like parenting, for example, which, you know, is like a subsection of the whole show. But like, because Merrill's character was the parent to Alexander Skarsgard character and now the grandparent to these two twins and she doesn't know this yet, but another another boy in their class. There's this whole thing about raising your boys to be good, like, how do you do that in this world? How? Do you. How do you raise your children in general to be appropriately prepared for a world where like climate change is knocking on the door, which is something that gets addressed later in the season? And then on the other side is the tension, that has always been there at the show that really comes out with Bonnie's. We Kravitz his character Jane, she would lease character, which is the outsider insider distinction in, in this, click of moms that, like Maddie Reese, Witherspoon character, clearly, has right from the start has so much anxiety about whether or not she really fits in. And so as a result, like really over performs her her fitting into this place and I'm not. I don't aspire too much. But okay. So like one of the characters their cash flow gets threatened. There's obviously a lot of judgement from people around them. They're called the Monterey five. So there's like these really interesting things that are being tweaked, right from the start, and I totally agree with Richard, like, I think the second season, I'm so glad. Glad it starting with these big things thrown at the wall, because it makes me feel like there's something more to say that it's not just trying to milk the first season, for whatever drama could something that I really like about it is that the I think, you know, I've watched the first three up says, I think the temptation is would be there to throw in. I mean, I don't think this is whether say that they're like, isn't another big mystery. And that's something that I really like I guess the mystery is, like, will they be able to survive what they did in season? One. Right. You know, that's the question, but it's not like the way the season the first season unfolded. It was like it was a who done it sort of, you know, and there's the whole like recourse, an interrogation and all of that sort of stuff and all of that is gone. And it's so it's you know I thought they were gonna like cook up another mystery. I season two and I think that's a mistake. A lot of a lot of these limited series shows that try to I'm thinking, specifically thirteen reasons why that tried to outlive. Their source material is, they're like, ooh, let's just like create another exact version, you have been talking about this all along. But like the way in which they didn't chase another mystery. I was really gratified by that. And then the other thing that I really liked, and you've already sort of touched on this as well. But the expansion of Zoe crevices Bonnie like the way that character operated in the first season and the way in which she's involved in the end of the first season, I think it was a big question Mark, for a lot of people because it's made clear in the books, y you know, in the book, why she would be sort of more involved in, in what happened the end of season one and season two, I think Reese, had made some murmurs about, like, oh, we'll see more Bonnie. And I was like, okay, we'll either so many women in the sling big. Well, we have more, and then they absolutely is delivering on that, as far as I can see that like, so much of what crevices character dead and the way in which is affecting her is such a huge part of this season two and I. I love that. I love it for that. I wanted to as maybe Richard because Katie, and I were talking about this a little bit before like yesterday when I was watching the episodes, you and I talked a lot about John, Marv L, as like distinctive style, when we were doing the sharp objects run on still watching, and all of that I'm not as with Andrew Arnold work. How much do you think she is having to sort of ape? What John, Mark valet does, which is so distinct, and how much of it is her own style. I mean from what from what you've seen or what, you know, of Andrea, Arnold style generally, and how it might match. Joe Marquel as like does this feel like a new piece and maybe Sonya you're more familiar with under Arnold's work? I am as well. But, like a new piece under new director or someone trying to match the person who came before them. Well, I think that was the big question when valet left. And, and I think that his presence in the first season was a huge part of us feeling you know, those of us who didn't really want a second season that it was a discrete piece of filmmaking, essentially. Like it told a story that, yes. Ended on a tiny bit of immaturity with the detective playboy Marion Dungy's watching them, but I liked that little bit of like this isn't over for them, but it's over for us, we were done watching their story and valets signature style that we later saw sharp objects was so such a big part of that. And so you find others the season two, but he's not involved, you're like, well, then what, what is the show going to not only look like because valets filmmaking style is not just visual thing. There's a there's a cadence that transcends visuals. It's auditory it's just a field. There's a feeling to it. And clearly HBO wasn't going to completely abandon that because that was successful factor of show. And so they brought Arnold on. Who's this lauded, filmmaker beloved can, you know, in the sort of euro indie art house world? Clearly, she's been asked to keep up the house style while employing some of her own individuality, I would think, more with how she works with the actors maybe but I have to say in maybe cynical, you watch it, and you're like, okay injury. Arnold took this for the money you know, he's an interesting opportunity to work with a lot of great actors. But she wasn't going to get to, to do it completely her way, because there was this guy who stabbed what the show looks and feels like, and she's more than capable of existing within that world. But I think it feels more like I've done all these indie films. I have great reviews. Here's an interesting paycheck, that will maybe put me more in the minds of, you know, the US and people looking for interesting directors. You know, I I've spoken to so many interesting directors, who are clearly, you know, more and more just pointed, a television, because that's where the, the interesting could be. And I think that Andrea Arnold of that. So while I'm still long for a series, that's definitively hers and not sort of her continuing on with somebody else's style. I think she acquits herself. Well, and what I've seen I'm not familiar with her earlier work, but I mean it's interesting like being director on TV is just such a different experience. Like I mean, John Mark valet had more freedom than than she has had with this season because he. Was creating the visual style. But directors on TV are expected to subsume their vision to the party line, I suppose, and it's worth noting that John Mark hasn't editing credit on at least the first two episodes. So he is creatively involved to some degree. I mean and it certainly still looks edited by him. I have to say, I mean, the it does the quick fantasy sequences and the cuts to the waves. But then there are some there some aspects of it, which I felt certain that he would not have quite gone in that direction. And I think specifically, it's with Bonnie's character that maybe I'm reading this that I'm reading into because I think that she was not really an interior person in, in the first season, she had some interesting moments, but I think that this season spends a lot more time with trying to understand the world from her perspective. And you see things through her is there's some fantasy sequences better through her eyes. And to me, that's where I saw the. Difference from the first season. So I wonder if that's that's how Andrea Arnold was getting her creative license out or something. But that's a really interesting point. I genuinely I don't know. I mean, I think the interesting thing also is that in Arnold career before this, I mean, she did of fish tank, which kind of introduced Michael bender to a lot of people love that she American Honey. And then she had some stuff previous to that is that she before this show has not really been director who works with big celebrities and big characters. It's much more naturalistic, you know, and I think that, that this afford turn interesting opportunity to do that, you know, to work with Meryl Streep in a wig and false teeth. And that is not an injury Arnold thing to do or hasn't been in her career up to this point. But also, it may be in Bonney or in new sort of avenues of the story that are introduced to sort of to shape them the way that she wants shit. You know, she likes people at least an American Honey, certainly to the she liked her actress to discover sort of where they were going, and how the thing took shape and this obviously has to track. On much more, you know, set rails. But yeah, I'll be curious to see by the end of the seven episodes where the Andrea Arnold of it stands, because valet has with, with the first season of this, and with sharp objects really was turning in autour television. And that's really rare. You know. And maybe it's a newer thing that's happening, more and more world director will direct all episodes of, you know, escape from Denham or, or whatever, you know, all these things. So maybe my hope is that if she continues on with this big hit show, you know, gets it across the finish line with a successful season two, then HP or somebody else would be like okay, MS Arnold. What do you want to do from scratch in, in Yesler longer format thing? And then I would be fascinated to see whatever that is. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I can draw now that I think about, I can draw a line because I have seen fish tank and American, Honey. So I feel like I can draw a line between the Sasha lane character in American Honey, and the k- Jarvis character and fish tank to the body character like that. That is a character that Andrea Arnold is more interested in than she is in a Celeste, or Madeline. And so it's not to say that there isn't plenty of room for and coal cabinet Reese Witherspoon in the season because there certainly is. But, you know, the writing is certainly there to support Zoe Kravitz his character. And the fact that Andrew Arnold may be more interested in her character, you know, is kind of fascinating to me, and yeah, I like to Sony as point, of course, like usually a director style is not what over, you know, you hand off a TV show from episode episode from season to season. But yeah, I think of what John Mark LA did in the same realm as I think, of what Cary Fukunaga did with true detectives season one where it's just sort of like the, the immature of like this particular style. Is there and do you take a hard turn away from it to your own thing? Or do you try to, to match it? And I feel like Andrea Arnold is trying to match it or with his editing or with a musical choices, or whatever it might be an interesting to me. That's that's. That's fascinating. And other thing I think worth talking about with Bonnie's crab. It's his character is that she's the only black character. I mean, well, there's Merrin, Dungy's character, the investigator, but bun bodies mom shows up for at least one episode one episode, but I mean she's the only black person who leaves in Monterey like the points out, actually, when she comes, she's like I haven't seen any of the people here, which is like accurate. Right. Exactly. And I think that I almost wonder if HBO when thinking about the season was sort of, like, well, we have our basis, covered with the rich white blonde women, like we know how to tell that story. We have that down, but with Bonnie, and I think to a degree with Jane showman would lead character to there are there's some pieces that are just like a little bit less easy to access because they're not quite as plugged into this, like sort of glitzy showy world, and I and I feel like that's really I mean, I was actually surprised how much that besides I saw dug into the racial difference. Of Bonnie with the other characters. I mean, she says outright at some point, she was like, how can I like how am I gonna feels like solidarity with you guys, like how are we on the same page? And I thought that, you know, that was one of the main criticisms of the first season, I think that the criticism was kind of their if you were, you know, just looking at the makeup of this place, and how everyone was treated, but it certainly feels like it's more part of the text now that they're like, really going to talk about the fact that Bonnie is the only black person in Monterey. Yeah. And my hope is that what I loved about the first season was it started. And you thought, okay here's an interestingly filmed. But otherwise fairly conventional story about, like, the, you know, voracious competitiveness of upper class white women in on clay. You know we've seen this with a murder thrown insure. We've seen this thousand times before, but at the end and maybe I don't know if you disagree. But at the end I was like, wow. This was actually about something a lot more than I thought it wasn't about them fighting, it was about them coming together and. Finding unity through struggle and in their difference in, in their sameness and all that. So my hope is that with these further questions being asked about Bonnie about Jane to some extent is maybe Arnold will get there and David Kelly, and Liane Moriarty will get to that other grand summation or summit of point, whatever that might be for this season because that's really why I think the first season worked so well, is that by the end, it revealed itself to be about much more than its component parts, the other the other thing I want to mention about season two that feels a little different to me that feels like and you know, maybe I'm, I'm like creating subtext with there is non but it feels like you, Nicole Kidman and Laura Dern got a lot of the performance of attention in season. One nickel Kim. And got you know, the awards and, and Laura Dern got like the memes, and then and then Reese was so great, but sort of, like, you know, her character model in is, I think they added the extra marital guarantees in one to her character to make it even more interesting. But like there, she's still sort of like in a more. Neutral position than than some of the other women. And then I feel like in season to my guess, given like reece's exact producer role in the show is that she was like, give me more. I want to be even more in this season. And so there's a lot there's a lot more like crisis and emotion and room for for Reese, to be like flex her acting chops, at least in the episode that I've seen in season two that in season one, so it's not that she's not just doing or leelee blonde election up to eleven sort of thing, she's doing she's modulating with this other stuff, too. And that's like the point is like I did, like the end of season one, but it felt incorrect to leave them happily on the beach after like what they did. And so this, this, like, telltale heart sort of aspect of season two. I think that, you know, given that that's what they're going with. Which is like, how does the weight of what we did impact us? I think that's, that's a great thing to explore till till zippo. I love it. I mean, the fact that she gets to go Toth Meryl Streep in these first two like she just has these great lake expressions on her face, and she's being insulted, to her face, and I love the energy of those between them and it, it gets that thrill that was in the very beginning big little lies where it's like, oh my God. All these actresses Catherine when place during Maryland. There is the exact effect, they wanted were just amps up the excitement of seeing them together. And I suppose I don't need to find space for the men and big little lies. But I do want to shout out out of Scott, and I and Alexander stars got is in a lot of this season. The AFL way more than. Flashbacks dreams and, and videos recorded and stuff like that, you know, he also won awards for his performance so they found a way to include him in season two, but like. Them to. Yes. So but you're right. Adam Scott's incredible. Also in this season. Shingling Woodley was kind of a she was my probably my weakest link in the first season which is not to say she was was bad at all. But I felt the least positive about her performance. I have to say in this season, she impresses me. There was one scene in particular where she's talking to her son. And I was like, oh, I'm, I'm really invested, and I really believe this and I hadn't felt that exactly with her before. So that also speaks well, I think to the Evelyn of the cast speaking of larger memes, I don't want to spoil anything but there's a so to where she just like screams through gritted teeth. I'm not not going to be rich, which is it's amazing. It's like the there's so many pleasures to be had in the whole thing. Even if like I like you guys, I think I'm curious about where the story is going to go, and how they're going to land it. We'll we'll probably talk about big little lies again as the season goes on. So we wear. Else, elsa. We'll talk about. Joanna where we'd be talking about big little lies Richard. I will be talking about big little lies every week on the still watching podcast. So you guys should tune in for even more of our thoughts. I'm really invested in Sonia. Sony unified theory of bangs. The last two and a half. How like if you look Andrea Arnold, has like Betty page Bank. So I feel like this is Andrea Arnold's leg sneaky tactic for getting banks to be like, and I am I'm a bang hammer. So is getting rich. So like we're probing people. But, like, yeah, there's, there's a bang agenda and big. We use it and begs back. They never went away. They very much. So. New I, I was really surprised because they changed they changed Jane's hair. She Lynnwood lease hair. So it's like she has really solid dark banks. And I was wondering if it's supposed to make her look a little bit more like Celeste, Nicole Kidman who has the she has the same bags as she did the first season, and then Meryl Streep's shows up. And she's got these bangs. It's and I was like what's happening surrounded by banks? I mean, you think about the hair, we'd like Reese Witherspoon like her hair looks so far as I can tell just like regular hair. But it just looks incredible. And it stupid character for her hair to look incredible at all times. But you just think of how much effort goes into making that hair for everybody looked the way that it doesn't Laura Dern here, which is still radiant flowing locks. Yeah. It's wild. It is the most fantastical thing about big little lies because they are on a windswept. Town and their hair's tangled. So, you know. This episode is brought to you by sharp objects on HBO sharp objects is based on the bestselling novel by Gillian Flynn. The story focuses on Camille precursor a journalist with a history of psychiatric issues who returns to who rural hometown to cover the apparent murders of two preteen girls, the limited series was hailed by critics as exquisite hauntingly compelling at a true masterpiece for your inconsideration in outstanding limited series and all other categories. Visit HBO dot com slash FIC for more on sharp objects. So now we're going to share it interview that I did with Alan Yang, who is one of the co creators of Amazon's forever. He's also a co creator of master of none with these sorry. He's got, you know, he's been working in television since a parks and recreation, his kind of watched the entire industry change in between master of none forever. And that his upcoming show with apple. He's working for all of the big new streaming contenders. So he's kind of seen it all. So I talked to him about forever in about how he built that show, which I thought was gem with my rich. Rudolph in that maybe didn't get quite as much attention as it deserved, partly because the entire premise was kind of a spoiler. And they kept it under wraps. So we talked about what that process was like. And then how they made the show. So let's listen to that conversation. Okay, so Alan Yang. Thank you so much for joining us and a little Goldman to talk about forever. Rangy I wanted to start getting kind of meta about how the show was rolled out because you did a lot of interviews when they viewed, and there was this whole secrecy around the show, which you guys I really deliberately did to kind of hide the reveals at where the show went, but looking back on that. How did that feel rolling show out in that way like being able to keep things to yourselves? But also being like just just watched the show. We can't really tell you what it's about. But watch it did that feel good in the process if Hewlett yet and it was really because Amazon and universal or cools it, you know, I think a lot of times the studios of the networks are tempted to give the is as much information as possible. I mean he see the traits where is to tiny mini version of the entire movie in its will lie need to watch movie night just gave away points. So it was really important to us eclipse, the show sensually changes form three times in the first three understood in is essentially a different show every episode up until fourth episodes that. We had the ball in so eight us he poses some issues in obviously the marketing department is, like, well, when we haven't, it's a show about marriage. And so that was what really helped you. Right. Because it's my Fred in people know them and they loved them. So you put them on a billboard. And it's like, yeah, I'll watch that show. It's really funny people and we'll see where it goes. In one of the most gratifying thing things about the whole process was people coming up to me still coming some to be last week was like I saw your shell in. I so surprised over and over again. How do we get to do that? You know there's no surprises anywhere. There's another everyone knew. Spoiler alert game of thrones. Nellie Emlyn Cedeno that brain was going to become ill, spoiled, everything spoiled in so with this show, I like that we were kind of a little show that is flying under the radar people today in, I think were genuinely surprised because we took some weird weird s turns. Well, how does lie under the radar work in like both binge culture, where it's like if you don't get washing the first weekend everyone talking about it, like, sometimes it feels like he don't exist and just this, this world is TV where like there. So many shows to pick out of do you just have to learn how to be patient and say, like people will find our show like it exists for what it is in N step back from it gives you the best you can't because to me unless your immoral movie or you know, something enormous like that. You look, there's not really a TV show. That's feeling the game. Fearless void right show. Yeah. I think what you have to do, especially when you're making a show like Raver or a showing Nassir Mellon. It's you. You make something that you hope is high quality in hopefully, is filling some boys, some bitch, some space in the cultural marketplace, that is interesting and unique in then really for you for me. It's reviews in word of mouth, and that's pretty much everything is, is why show like fleabag Gershon, like ten fifteen or in these shows again, may not have giant stars in them to begin with, but people seem to be able to find them. I hope that Trevor falls in that category. Hope that, you know, we got we were lucky enough to get good reviews in Illinois. I think we got pretty plus mouse show on. That's, that's where you have to live. I think it I think the age of the giant television events is, is if not dying is reserved to a few big budget, things like in movies. So where were you wanna live is, hey, we made a really good show. And that's what happens. Yeah. I mean, I don't want you to give away like the house secrets. But Netflix famously like doesn't reveal their internal numbers even to the people who make shows. It does Amazon working differently. Do you have any better sense of who's by Chang forever? In Nassar man, I can't give you the house secret for heated those places. They don't tell me that. I'll. And that's. Neither like asking, you know we've as like Netflix, we don't even feature what would house it gets like to tell, so, yeah, now it's more like, you know, they like the show that, that's you know, that's facially all you want. You know similar coming from network, TV with parks rack, which kind of famously like had like low, but devoted fan base, and I don't know how much time you spent sweating of the Nielsen numbers, but it's gonna to be sort of freeing yucky in that was, what Angela my co-creator on forever? Was I remember it? And we worked on Russia a year together in. I'm not gonna lie. We would come in on Friday morning, and we'd be bombed up because we got a one point five or, and find might be massive. Now, he would be what I remember this season, three premiere Bester by us right of parks. Right. We got a three point two in like us not that good. That would be a massive. But, but yeah, we were watching the numbers because that's show was on the brink of cancelation every season. Boggles the mind now looking back in ching. The cast in, you know, it was it was a great show is fun work life in which is out to get cancel every year. Insane figure feel that stress suspend like, do I have to go look for another job because like as a writer like you really are beholden to, like wet writer's room. We'll have you on that point like you need. You need that job. Right. Yes. Absolutely. In, in, in. Honestly, I felt bad for Mike because it was the actual amount of the entities in two or the beginning of season three when we got pushed him mid season, which generally is a harbinger of that things calm. And so, I think we all went out for drinks. And we were like, well, this might be in, and it was a bummer because we felt like the show is hitting. It's dry and we love the cast we loved the writer's room. And all the people we were working with end ENA was great working with Mike, so, yeah, we were all bummed and then it went on. Three other hundred. So yes in. So that's a long way of saying. It is incredibly liberating. It is for me. I was going back to what I told him harbour. I said, we'll have made the reviews are meetings. Think about that. Let's make the show wanna make. Let's make something bold. That's make something original. Let's make something that no one's ever seen before. Because honestly, you know, you and I are never going to see how many people she we. And so, so let's make it for us. Let's maybe for people who have Cates taste similar to ours in made, and that's great. You know that I, I don't think we look anything's possible because David Lynch dot twin peaks on ABC, but I hesitated, bed network would have put on the show as strangest on would did it take making the first season master of non to realize just how much freedom there is in the world. Is streaming good places obviously doing big staff on NBC. But like when you see forever, he see master of non lake that's stuff that really like you said, doesn't feel like it could be a network. But did you know how much freedom you had when you? Master of none or did that have to succeed. I it really much in it helps it a couple of ways. I mean, keep in mind when we sold master of none, genetic they head to show, they, you know, they're making house apartments in order to new black making the relicensing really Hammersley but, but that's how early that lunch. And so think about how many, they have is a show on Netflix. Every twenty seconds show like any scientific number, but, but it legitimately. Yeah, it was exciting in as they develop master on that first season, you know, the fact that episode two has no characters in the first episode except for Z's is insane. You know that was breaking people's brains for years ago. Five years ago or as easily raping our own grains, and then season two until even further. Right. Yeah. It was. It was. You know, you would normally get pushback. Hey, you want to this absolute be a, a tape on an Italian neorealist film from the? 'these it shouldn't be in black and white. Should we do episode that where where is ease in it at all? And it follows three immigrant characters all around New York, and there's eight minutes of it is silent in that, that kind of stuff is, you know, was really excited. And then you see that's what people like the most about the show is one year, experimenting in when you are pushing yourself and in and enduring things again that you hadn't seen before. And in our exciting to people. And that's what that's what sex me. Right. I you know, innovating and and and, and challenging myself, along with sort of the meat and potatoes. Character storytelling that that, you know is also is also very poor me is hot. And you can't Sotoudeh and in care about the characters care about the story. But also push yourself, formerly in, in, in terms of, of visually in all of these different aspects of. Yeah. Well, I mean you guys this big leap in forever as well. But I think the six episode is the bottle episode brain. It's almost at the very end with. Yeah. With a Hong Chow and Jason mental who's like there's been some allegations about him. They'll come out since then, but I want to talk about this episode specifically because it's the spa episode about like two characters that we haven't seen before as you mentioned for master of none. And it seems like that will come directly from that experience that you say, okay. Audiences go with you have something that's totally similar was that the idea just to really get the audience that part of the season say, okay, we're going to do something really different. Yeah. Yeah. I mean one in ultima after three or four rug polls in the first three episodes. Another. You'll have an Uber. Checking out your comfortable, exactly? Unbelievable Kirpal into me when mad at nine we'll talk to you about the show and brainstorming ideas that idea was one of the things that just kept us killed. We often said ourselves, this episode is the reason to make the show at someway to Hanlin episode within the series. Yes. And an episode that takes advantage of our premise. And in what other show can you show another couples experience, inhabit spanned thirty four years? And have your main character watched the whole thing that have that influence her life like that is that to me is so in obviously the theme of that story and the way it goes about in, you know, the they did great to the actress did a great job in, in a to me the heartbreak about story, the theme of regret that is one of the themes that in. Use the entire series in to have the ability to tell that story in when we pitch that to Amazon very early on. It I'm very grateful for the fact that basis lack. That's like that may be our favorite story of the year. Let's just deal it, you know, and not just huge swing. Because my is in it for two sides, and heartbreaking left on her face. She comes to mind. She came shot that I like Monday morning while you just killed. It. We think we have the can we're Dolly. Holy shit. The episode. And that's hair pro yet. That I still remember watching the first kata that so the adage is sadly in I was really exciting 'cause you know, obviously they were taken in professions serve, but it was largely working. And then at the end that shoddy Miot is for was for me only ship owned in terms of her acting in her facial, you know, her facial acting in that scene, and, and that can beat everything and then earned Catherine at the end again, I'm very strange episode of shoot because I shot the scene of her in Tappin. I think either weeks are like a month before was shot, the rest of it says you have no way. Yeah. So, so we are on the ground staged a fake version of their house, like I know this is weird, but I just need to shoot. You saying, I wanna go to oceanside. And they're like, okay, so we should get me shop that in half an hour an hour. And then, you know weeks later, we shop the entire episode but it did end up cutting together away that race has. Yeah. And I know you talked about how you gave the actors or maybe talk with writers from about the, the sunrise sunset trilogy. Richard Linklater movies as an example of like these dialogue heavy scenes of watching characters butter relationship, but, but that whole idea of like watching people talk to each other, and fall in love and learn everything about them just through dialogue. It's really hard like we've all seen bad examples of it. So when you're sitting down and writing something like that. But what do you know what are the anecdotes, that are banal, but meaningful, like, where do you really hammer that kind of stuff down, other than just watching before sunrise and saying, okay, that's perfect? I recommend also don't recommend watching those because it's so frustrating number argue. And, you know, they have abandoned by the way, the benefit earth, I think, honestly, years of experience, doing it, because I from what I understand Richard linked later, worked with Ethan Hawke, any work, Julie Delpy. And they, they just they lived in the guy, exactly, they collaborated in made it feel natural, and there were probably alive or hersal, maybe even weeks months rehearsals, which honestly, we don't have the luxury of doing that. So I think what you wanna find is first of all in naturalism, and second of all specificity. Right. So to need the best stuff is the personal stuff. So if there's any part of you that can incorporate some aspect of your life into the scenes. I think that often house because those real life conflicts are just something about him something ineffable, something indescribable, that you're able to put it in there, some magic and end barring that maybe it's your friends story or what have you writer stories. So, honestly, like, there are some specifics that I'm really happy. Like one detail was we had a Andres character us. He's a black guy in the growth in Monterey park, which is a majority Asian suburb of Los Angeles. And I was like, well, that would be really interesting. That's kind of based on our location, editor of who is emitting any deity who you know, he's a Tino, but he's like men is so interesting. He's like he's like, I've never worked with their Asian show writers. It's interesting. You know, all my friends Asian, I was like why I grew up in Monterey park. He's like. Asian Asian bullies Asian earn their as John all these like. Wow. That is actually would be weird like to live in America and your minority majority Asian school. Like I, I show said at that high school. Well, I will say, I develop a new show that breaking do onscreen. So, yeah, that's, that's deep deep in development. But, but yeah, you know, did he socially of the shows ligation like, so, you know, the something specific detail like that? And it's like him getting bullied by a United is, is there's something interesting about that. And then we drew from the Hong chows actual life. She, you know, she, we wrote the character to be from Kentucky. She's actually from Louisiana. And so there was something about her life that we kinda lock into. So I think it's a combination of factors. No personal. Details on specificity and having conversations I prefer conversations that feel natural not very, very sort of pitter-patter a ping pong east for a little stage here. Right. That's just my personal preference in NFL. You see that in the summer subsidies on where it just feels if you like your your with the characters flyover wall, he will you don't feel the hand of the creator the writer director as much at. That's right for, you know what those Lincoln and movies had the advantage of that. You don't though is they're all like wandering around these beautiful European seas. So we talked about that. A look we're in a house in riverside at God's will recite as a great town. It's what I rough, but honestly, an empty model home in riverside is not really the Kennedys my hand exactly, as, if not the streets of Europe. Jack nuts another beautiful walk and talk now, they're like, overlooking river. Now, they're like, stealing a blood will wine at a picturesque. We don't get any that we're looking mini golf is that they're like, we're married to this location as so that made the challenge even harder in that put the onus on the actors even more. So I'm very happy that episode and, and, and we've got such positive feedback from now, in we're both really, really happy with us. Who are you? We know that somewhere in the world someone downloaded this podcast, but we don't know anything about you, the folks who support this show would love to know just a little bit about who is listening. If you have two minutes it really only takes two minutes. I swear help us make the show and even better experience for you by telling us more about yourself. Just go to listener Q. That's L. I. S. T. N. E R, Q dot com forward gold and take the short survey, you can also give us direct feedback on the show, which we would love to hear and it's a thank you. You'll be entered into a drawing for a one hundred dollars Amazon gift certificate. Two minutes listener, q dot com slash gold. That's listener, q dot com slash gold. Yeah. I thought it was really interesting watching it the second time to talk to you. That was thinking about how the show stars right arm. My Rudolph who are mixed race actors the show isn't really about race at all. And you've talked about how, like not everything you do is about race, and that makes sense. But this episode is in a lot of ways it has them talking really frankly about that. And I wonder in this might just be like fan theory, thing, like if it was a way of making clear that it was set in the current life and not in the afterlife, if that helps set it apart or if that was just part of the like dynamic, you wanted to have between these characters Vietnamese woman in a black man. It mostly came from the ladder. I think it basically it is good. Abject me. Why is this show about racing? Did you watch? So Los it first of all, my Arbat races you mentioned. But, but also. Yeah, this one is in, you know, I haven't seen the story I've made it in. So, so yet in this vicinity active us great. We also chose them because their background rich thing in the specific interactions their conversations about race. I think at a certain level for sawn to their relationship, and there's a little bit of bonding. We call him to get his help, right. Somebody episode with us and she's mixed race in you. We all have these specific viewpoints on rights, and so she we put that in there and it serves by way. That's one advantage. We had over the link later movies is. It's an additional interesting, a aspects of their, their character channel. They could talk about that could talk about being married to white people in how that's. Different for them. You know, there's no judgment here as to whether it's better worse. But it is something they are able to bombs over in, you know, obviously, I have a little bit of experience, writing about race in tackling issues about related to race in intelligent, time domestic none. Again, as I said, don't wanna do that in every show, every movie I ever do who likes it. Those observations are interesting. And, and there's only so many creators, who sort of have that perspective in an are able to express that point of view of their work. So that's, that's one of the things that that, you know, I take pride. Yeah. I mean it seems like the more that people's color and people from different backgrounds are able to make things the more that we get things that talk about race without like capital t talking about race like the the line between like colorblind everyone's the same in green book. There's so much in between there and it feels like this, this into that, where you can like have it be part of the story. But not what the whole thing is about exactly is the rule, we sort of used was. Hey. It's if we're having dinner. How much did we talk about it? And yeah, it might come up. It's just not going to be the whole dinner. You know, we're also gonna talk about our relationships and our work and, and sports dump stuff like that. You know. So, so it's that level. Yeah. And the best flirting of that episode is felt like all the weird shit in this house, which is a universal. Which the nice I don't keep up with the cover. The offered was so funny to discover you know, he's like it's music. Job day, these days get lost in the writer's room, but it was funding. So when you were when the first season came out, you kind of over vague about the idea of season two possibly existing. It doesn't sound like there's been anything official about it. But is that something that's still in your brain or you? I mean you're obviously developing a lot of other stuff too. Media, Matt really love working on the show with love working with mine. Fred, so, you know, we're all text road. We have text call reference forever, so you never know. But yeah, we had a great calm. You had a great time working with universal Amazon and it. So you never know. But as we did mention, you know, I feel like that last shot is a beautiful coda to the show, one I be able to do. She said, so, so, so we'll talk about it may be one of these things where if we're lucky we get to do down the road, and that's kind of how over master done as well as we kind of have an open invitation to do another season or do more down the road. I what that is all believably a unbelievably unfortunate situation. So we'll see what we had a great time doing it in, in feel, if people enjoy the show, so maybe was it. Weird like going from having been in lake regular network shows, like south park in parks records like you need ideas. You gotta break the next season to like having something marinating in the back of your head. Like it's freeing. But, like you never get to let go of it either. It's wonderful. I see I look, I never denigrate of the schedule those shows they're just different. I it's just if in the nature of the shows is different end, there something lovely about being on every week in having people talk about the show of getting the feedback. But if there's also something really difficult about, hey, we're doing episode sixteen of twenty two and. We didn't plan on all season because it's possible. It also. So you're doing Santa loans, and you're doing, you're coming up with different character hearings in, you're just kind doing them for the sake of doing episode. That's a different challenge. Right. So we've sort of gotten to do is there. It's as has been mentioned many times, foreign cultural criticism, the line between film and television is blurring because it's becoming more like e you are thinking of a movie idea, except it's a little longer in this discrete idea is a thing that you can be really passionate about in make it for a year or two years. And it doesn't have to be the next ten years of your life, and you don't have to make one hundred eighty of them and in so that's, that's cool. And by the way, off would never rule out making a hundred eighty something like it's could be fun as well. But, but, but the the, you know, certainly the last few shows I made this one little America's net on t series which its own peace, so. I just had a lot of fun having meetings with, with different places, and in people masking about what I kind of want to do in the future, in, I'm like I wanted I wanted to explore new areas. I feel like I'm John Ray agnostic. And I just want to make shit that I love like, really close. Clone between flicks and then Amazon and no apple for little America. Like you're really covering the basis of all the streamers like you, can you just go from place to place in continue making different things for all of them. And then just run the town. Y'all plan to be making a you know, a map show like make. Skype show. Eskan again, I feel really lucky to be able to do that. And I thought by way, had good experiences at all three in and and you know. I feel like we're getting to make good shows been watching little Mary klutz in been really happy with them. So, yes, that's really cool man in to be able to be on the different services to really fine because you never know where people are going to be, you know, I it's, it's, it's, it's nice to be a difference to that. Big Apple fronts thing. They did were they announced. Because you think it was just Camille onstage for that, right? I'm not this summer. You were there. Okay. The audience immediately is Berg, who's created this show or the incidentally, boredom is there's, well, we let male talk because he's one of the funds people world Evie leaders. I'm going to like knock anybody, but, like there was some stilted presentations. And then there was like oh, you know how to talk in front of he gave? Shows that, you know, they put people in it, you know, it was it was, it was interesting. It was almost like were giving their little TED talks like, well, I'm going to watch that like Camille is gonna kill it because he's one of the best in the world. So until a little bit unfair having compete the other people, but he just an ease of about in. And if you could tell you, if you really believed in the show with was really proud of its, we are really happy to get one of those shows, they only five or six shows up there. We were thrilled one of the because we're not produced by s- feel river. You know, over Winfrey, J day of Xena were produced by me. So it's a different level of dude. Great, but he's not rinse her spin. He's not committed yet. It's so so yeah, you were thrilled to be up there. And you know, we really felt like from the beginning apple was such a great fit for us because, as this lane to us this sort of ethos of the show in the themes, and be the ethic of the show was very similar to what they want to project in their service. And it's is look, we're not making a tree lease a sentimental episodes of this show. But there is an element of hope, and there's an element of America being a place that people come to, to honestly, fulfill their dreams, in and strive for, for freedom in, in what their look in, in being able to cheat what they wanted, cheap like. So there is that under current the show, even though some via custodes are or melancholy in some of them, a little funnier on that was kind of an Albuquerque the entire series in so we felt like ATMs, this is how Pat but like says something hopeful since so nice. The argue that Lawson is, when you're hitching up, believe, goes, about the same time that the president was Alan shoring on people up in cages, so. Yeah. It was it was. It was. It was interesting time you pitching that show. We got a lot of relieved looks on what thank God. You know, this makes me feel good about our country. Yeah. So this podcast is really awards. He's focused like we do a lot of Oscar episodes, and we're kind of NBC's a now and I was watching your speech from a little while ago and just curious about like having gone through that he's got one nine kind of going through it again with forever. Wouldn't you learn about like the television industry or how you handle this kind of thing like being a little bit removed from an EMMY win? What did you get from it? I just to meet strikes. You'll have fast things move to me. You know, even really in. It went from I it's a sense of possibility. And I don't mean that in a in a in a sack you way. I hope but honestly, we were little show, you know, master of none was a little shown any, it'll happen really fast. I remember. I don't know how much of a priority, we work for Netflix from me before the show came out. I, I know honesty their fans disease in a you know, they liked him. But, you know, I don't know the expectations were huge for us in Seoul, the shell came out in honestly, even before the Emmys. You know, I think I season I don't think we got anything of the Golden Globes. I don't think we really got riders killer directors skill and then suddenly you're now need for any en suddenly one. They just seem to happen fast. And, you know, suddenly you're on stage, you know, Matt LeBlanc is Hannity trophies be very, very surreal for both. But also how facet happens? I take a similar thing like we were kind of on that journey with I think mister robot was season one as well. So we kept seeing those guys around at all different events and stuff in, I remember Romney Mollet, I think one that year in now he wants an Oscar, it's like this happens like he was double. You have complete unknown actor, jiffy descend, and it's kind of cool to house fast. All that stuff happens. And so, you know, in the same way we're a little show in, in, in in working out. I hope you know really I I would love for there to be some momentum behind Maya because I think performance Forever's is, is, is really something extraordinary in and I think she's showing colors, and she sewing layers that she doesn't always get to show off in in for someone to be as funny as emotionally. Vulnerable in, in, in a nuanced in real all of the same time is I thought was something I was really really excited about, you know, I'd love to get loved friend of it. Love to get love for our guest actors as well. But yeah, for sure and and looked. She's a two time. Oscar nominee this. It really that's not a fluke. You know. So I was really thrilled with the level of actors were able to get in, in, in, in having do this weird project. It's, it's it was really, we again, we feel really fortunate, you know, relate to comedy writers worked as we've been in so. Yeah. To get actress with that dramatic chops is really cool. Alan yang. Thank you so much for calling in and talking to us an congrats on forever. And I mean, you got so much else coming up, so we'll be sending again, really soon. Right. Thank you so much, that does it for this week's a little gold men. Thanks for listening. Keep finding us on Vanity Fair dot com where we've got writing about big little lies season two and all kinds of other things. You can find us on Twitter at little Goldman and on our own. I'm Katie rich Richard Reid loss. Enjoy Anna, Jared, this and Sonia, Sonia Suraya this episode was edited and produced by Brett Fuchs and this week's award for the best reason to buy and use all of our sponsors products goes to Katie rich. I'm not not going to be rich. This episode is brought to you by succession on HBO critics HALE the first season of succession, as the best show on television, irresistible entertainment, and a must watch show for your EMMY consideration in outstanding drama series and all other categories. Visit HBO dot com slash. F. Y C. For more on succession. Panoply.
The Emmy Contenders Voters Cant Ignore
"Districts man is brought to you in part by Cosmos the most beloved science series in television history, which returned this spring with Cosmos possible worlds on national. Geographic the Emmy and peabody award winning series again hosted by Neil Degrasse, Tyson who continues Carl Sagan's legacy of taking viewers on thought, provoking adventures to celebrate the possibilities of humanity in our Universe Cosmos possible worlds is for your consideration for outstanding documentary or nonfiction series, and all other eligible categories for more information. Visit NAT GEO TV. Dot Com slash fic. Hello and welcome to little Goldman the award season podcasts from Vanity Fair. It's such an honors present this next award, unheralded nominees and The Oscar! Goes. Food and I can't deny the fact that you like me. On the. Mistake. Like you guys won best picture. I'm Katie RICH DEPUTY EDITOR OF ANTI-FAIR DOT COM and I'm here. Chief critic Richard Lawson pillow, welcoming back from a few weeks, hiatus our digital director, my Cogan Katie and joining us for the first time in a while on far too long. Our TV critics surru-. Hey, what's up? Hey, thank you for jumping in Sonia. It's been emmy season for months and months and months, and yet we keep getting distracted by other things going on in the world but it felt like finally time to buckle down and talk about the EMMYS. The nominations are going on right now. As you hear this, they'll be announced at the end. End of July, but we wanted to get into some of our our personal fic picks and what we hope you if you are an emmy voter with a ballot, listening to this what you might want to consider but I. There's pressing news maybe less pressing as you listen to this, but because it's to be a Disney plus forever but Hamilton is on Disney plus we talked a little bit about it last week, but when you at the review for Vanity, fair. Dot Com and one just to let you I assume sing, the praises of Hamilton. But you told me where you landed on the on the. I can't help it. I can't help it. I'm so in the bag. You know the funny thing is. Is that like? Hamilton has been this phenomenon for like five years now, so it doesn't feel like it's not new and I'm not like. It's not that I'm like listening to this for the first time, but it was really nice to see it staged I mean when I saw it stage like in real life. My seats were very far back. The Nice ticket close up and the choreography so good and they. They do a lot with it, so the film itself. It's not super fancy camerawork. They're really just showing you what the stage production was like, but it's really nice to see the ensemble, and to get a sense of like who all the different characters are, and see Aaron Burr's face during wait for it. That was like a highlight for me. It's just a great. It's a great show. I cried at the end again. You know whatever? I told you recording. I listen to the soundtrack frequently enough, and I think about the ending and having seen it in real life and I start to cry, so please note. No judgments whatsoever here, really appreciate it. Did it feel like a time machine to the Obama Administration? A little bit yeah. They filmed it in June two, thousand, sixteen. It took me back to the election and Something interesting I saw it on stage after the election, and during the film production, everyone claps when they say well I. When they say immigrants, we get the job done, and also like we're going to include women and the sequel, and there's a lot of enthusiastic applause from the audience. And then when I saw it in two thousand seventeen, like nobody clapped at that the everyone was over like just that the election had trained people's energy for. Including Women in the sequel. Interesting, because a friend of mine who'd seen it before brought it up, she was like it was weird. I was very quiet during that moment, but it was really nice. I weirdly fell more relevant after this summer of protests and a wariness and talking so much about. The underpinnings of America. The show talks about slavery. A few times and a lot of these characters are playing slave owners. A lot of these characters are playing slave owners, so it sort of felt like it was super relevant and felt less relevant. As the first depressing years of the trump era, and then now felt like Oh. This like upswing of optimism again and like July Fourth of course is the perfect time to watch something like this, so yeah, yeah, it lives on, you know that was the thought I had to is like watching these like you know. Men of color singing in the beginning of the of the musical Lake Rise up when you're living on your knees rise up. I was like it feels like the story is coming back over again link. Let's tear down the confederate monuments and replace them with like divvied digs its Jefferson. Maybe maybe recreate history that. Feeling fine about it. Okay, let's talk about the EMMYS. We have over the past few months. If you've been listening, you have heard US talking to all kinds of emmy contenders I did I rounded it up recently for a showed Little Gelman newsletter, and it was really fun to look at how many people we've talked to I. Think we all have our personal horses that were rooting for I. Think Predicting the nominees is not as interesting as it is to talk about you know who were in the bag for and I just wanted to go category by category at least for the top few of them What do you WanNa? Start with comedy or drama? Everybody pick. Comedy Yeah, I mean I think for comedy. something I would hope will do well seems to be polling well or whatever I mean. We all know that those polls are often wrong, but I think Shit Creek ended its run earlier this year, and although I didn't love the last season. I think that the show getting recognized for its body of work I mean it got nominations last year, which was a big deal, but I think they could actually win a few categories and I. Think best comedy might be one of them. Certainly, it would be a more exciting when the Marquis Mrs Mazel. which like it's just you know? It's been such a reliable attraction force. But I. I don't know that the third you know. Would I don't know if that its third season was like? Necessarily? It's best moment or whatever. got. Everything stopped by fleabag last year. If it feels like easy to forget that we're coming off a thrilling where everyone was like Oh fleabag the charming underdog, we'll see how it. Doesn't it just like ran the table. So maybe especially in comedy like maybe that's Shit's creek. Or maybe it's some some other kind of underdog. like dead to me. Maybe like something else could pop up in surprise us. It won't be an underdog in the in the world where people look at Gold Derby because it's leading most if not all of those categories. which is so funny because the best seasons of Shit's creek happened in a complete vacuum on whatever pop TV is like playing in gas stations in Canada? and. All of sudden everybody discovered it on Netflix. And now it's like the world's most beloved show, but it obviously has a big advantage in the fact that it's ending right. Y-. Like they just announced a curb your enthusiasm coming back, which to me is really great. And I love curb your enthusiasm and I would love to see JP smooth. Get in there for supporting nomination or whatever, but the fact coming back gives you the license to say all right well. We'll come back to it then. You know we don't have to do anything right now. Mike you always point out that Shit's creek was was beloved by Canadian former editor-in-chief Vanity Fair. Graydon Carter and there was. We ran a piece on them in December two thousand sixteen. We were like who. We all love you. Leave you a. what is this was going on? And the portrait of the cast is so fantastic like it's a classic vanity, fair spread of these people who now know and love so at least some of. US got credit for being an early. What would really make me happy as if Chris Elliott would get a supporting nomination? Because when I first washed, it basically was thinking. Oh, there's a Chris Elliott show. And I love him so much in it that I finally. My brother sent me years ago mailed me. A DVD of cabin boy, and I finally put it in and watch half of it which I feel like an accomplishment. A. Chris Elliott is like he's the derange to me like his deranged comedy is the best of Shit's creek, and then I personally find it a little corny when it goes to super earnest, but it's fine right without him. It would be way, too Corny Lake. Like it would just be a sweet like show, and he brings us element of like actually people are terrible like interaction and. A possible Darkhorse, if enough people watch it I just WANNA shout out the latest season of insecure. which I feel like has been so much easier and so much much disgust in a way that the first season of insecure really was. They did a lot this season with the friendship between. Isa and Molly and. They, also did a lot with lake her maybe getting back together with her ex. Lawrence I just think the way that people have been talking about it and the way that it is beloved by the people who are watching. It means that it could at the very least nomination for Isa again. And get maybe some more traction there, but with all of these it always seems like the ones that are on streaming. Platforms seemed to do best I think just because more emmy voters watch them when they're on line. That's an. Easy as opposed to HBO like you think it has the disadvantage there. I mean I don't think that like of course I'm sure they all subscribe to Hbo but I think like just the fact. They come out weekly like you know Marvelous Mrs Mazel dead to me a shits creek. You just while I guess shits. Creek came out weekly so maybe thinking dismays. Me They all come like in a batch and he watch them all and I think that really helps voters. Get it into their system. To that end I could see another spoiler potentially being Rami, which is Hulu Show and drama, UCF, who's the Creator and Star he won best actor at the Golden Globes back in January remember. Doesn't that feel that was ten years ago? It was just a few months ago. This year, but I feel like I think the interesting thing about. The reality that we find ourselves in an you know kind of adding to what you said about like the likelihood of a vote of an average voter, watching something is like a lot of people have been stuck in their mansions for. Now and I just wonder how that affects what they've watched. Maybe they've thought stuff out that they wouldn't normally I mean. Maybe we'll see an emmys year. That breaks. The finally really breaks tradition that we've all grumbled about for a long time that they just keep repeating the same old stuff for after year I don't know. Maybe this is the year that they actually dug a little deeper and looked a little wider and found some smaller things that really they wouldn't have otherwise. I'm looking at y'all's list of the best television the year so far and there's not a ton of comedies on here which you know I I, guess there's a wide range of everything is high fidelity a comedy and does it stand a chance? Is it a comedy I think it's a comedy. I mean it's a half an hour, and I think that it's best chance would be a nomination Zoe Kravitz in the lead role, because she's really good and I feel like. She's been around for a long time. She's worked with a lot of people She seems to have enough goodwill industry to work a lot so. And you know she's very much center of that show, so yeah I wouldn't be surprised to see her in the mix. Had A similar question about the great. I assume the great is a drama. It seems to skew little, even though it's very funny, it's more drama, but it's Indus comedy poll. On Goal Derby which I know is not perfect, but that's surprise me, too. Because the great seems like something that like like, maybe as the actual underdog if Shit's creek isn't like something that like. We got rave reviews. It's got these two incredibly charming stars on this got these elaborate production values. It can get like you know twelve belittling nominations like maybe that's something that will pop up on us Mike. What besides curb your enthusiasm? Are you rooting for I? Guess in any category would love to see the great show up. It's funny to me that it's not showing up in more. And More People's lists I thought obviously. Elle fanning and Nicholas hold is incredible in it I mean it's great, super dark, but. Guest. Yeah, so I mean that would make me really happy. What is the? Good place it feels like the good place has gone from a heavy hitter to maybe more of underdog now. Is that the situation? It's from the before time. It. Like Romney's Golden Globe victory ended. It ended in February or whatever AK two years ago. It is really hard to kind of wrap your head around all that. I mean I would've loved to see what the good place would have done with humans, not wearing masks and pandemic morality, and it's just missed the window. You know it just wasn't. It was about the pre the before times, but I mean I'm I'm hoping for a nomination for Ted Danson at the very least, but it does feel like it's falling off the conversation a little bit. Yeah, speaking of like if I can shift to drama for a second like I think that one of the front runners is succession. And yet that season premiered in August of last year and I'm just an. That doesn't matter for the EMMYS, but I'm just wondering given everything that's happened since. Even going to be on people's radar in the way that people on Goal Derby are assuming it's the front runner, but like maybe it's not just because time has been a very strange entity of late. Is there something that you think would would kind of swoop in take its momentum in that drama like the. Katie. Take the morning show. Maybe. A really feels like like from another world entirely is the crown I had to kind of remind myself that the crown even happened. In in this time period, and when it was good. Better call. Saul was more recent. And I don't know there is something weird and paranoid. About better. Call Saul. That does seem to fit our time, yeah! You know the thing with succession. Is that I've been seeing people talking about re watching it and I imagine that it holds up well in our sort of like moment of acute wealth disparity, and like new Great Depression that I can see like some of the comedies that we were talking about, and certainly the crowd like don't quite feel as relevant so i. wonder it really goes back to Rishard. What you were saying about I wonder what? What people are viewing right now like what their viewing habits are, and what's attracting them? Because they feel like that could really change the average spread like imagine the handmaid's tale being something. You were drawn to like right now eligible, isn't it? I think it is yeah. Yeah, and feels lake I'm sure that for some people it feels like totally outdated, and then for some people, the fact that it's got this dystopia and thing going on. Wolf, very resonant, so. It's it's such a crapshoot with all of these with all of the serious shows about what chords? It's GonNa hit. I do think the eat the rich attitude. A succession like is something that I would relish going back in to like the attention span thing although succession you think about westworld really have to really focus on it, and everyone's having such a hard time like. Touching their brain cells together right now, but succession might be just uncomplicated enough to spill work for Pandera Times I wouldn't mind like watching it hating all the Roy's on their yacht right now, it. It doesn't seem like it's out of style Oh and that's. That's also topical, isn't it? The yacht yacht. On a yacht. Exactly. Richard I know you're a fan of ozark. Does it like it? Pretty recently lake since pandemic started you. Do you feel like that gives it an edge. Maybe. Yeah, it's also back in the news because they just announced that next season will be expanded, but also we'll be its last season so I wanNA. Maybe it's going to be more top of mind for people. It seems like Laura Linney. Who you know who who didn't get nominated for the first season though Jason Bateman did that's crying, but she had a really good season this year like the show almost kind of shifted to be about her. In some ways, and so I could see like her having that momentum. Ozark is one of those shows and I don't mean this any derogatory way because I'm speaking of my own family, but like it's a real like you know. boomers are watching it your parents or watching it kind of thing which might mean that it doesn't always get the attention like in the twitter sphere, or whatever that some of us are plugged into, but look at. At the backup of the Academy or the sort of you know what we know of it I think that that's a show. That probably resonates really well with a lot of members, so that seems like I feel like that's stronger going to be stronger in like performances or directing writing Bateman has already won Emmy for directing on that show. Then it will be competing against succession for best drama. I think that that would be a really tough. Road for them tall, if they if they're trying for that. What about Westworld? Westworld is significant in the way it has been in the past. It had a rough go of at the season. I think like some the acting talent that is on there can used in and a lot of ways I think Evan. Rachel Wood Antennae Newton both had pretty good seasons. And you know depending on what the competition looks like in that category like you can imagine the making room for it, but they you know they chained up so dramatically this past season. It might make it easy for people to be like Oh show we've moved on. What's The sports term rebuilding? Rebuilding Westworld you know they have a few more seasons kind of planned. I, think and this was their big transitional one and I think it had a lot kinks that didn't get quite ironed out, but it is a show. If we're thinking industry terms that employs a lot of people. It spends a lot of money. Shot. Well I. Think some of it at least shot in La. This this past season, so like it probably has like industry support in that way, but I think this season I would be surprised to see it. Get much play at the. I want to ask you about limited series because as with many years. It seems like when you like. What's the best thing I saw on television last year? Like a lot of it shows up in this category again and to me it feels like watchmen, Mrs America and like unbelievable in the putting us, America make up a pretty stellar. Is it just like watching? Our faves somehow beat each other in these categories. It's hard to imagine anything beating watchmen. I think that the talking just about like the way that relevance changes the way we see things. Watchman's uncanny kind of prediction of what we were going to be thinking about. The summer of Twenty Twenty makes me think that it's just unbeatable. I also constantly forget it to limited series. I'm like Oh. It's a drama. It's GonNa win the drama category, and then Oh. Yeah, no, it's not but to your point I mean there are so many miniseries that we're really beloved. Normal people which I wasn't necessarily my favorite, but is favorite also in this category, Unorthodox, which is the The Sheer Haas Sheera Hoss starring as an Orthodox Jew leaving the community. was also very well liked. I think I loved unbelievable. Although it was some episodes were better than others, but once you had had weaver and Toni Collette onscreen which. I would liked but that that show was really good. They were so good i. hope that it does get in there. I similarly loved that show and aired so long ago. That summer, right? That's like one of the! That's one of those things. I wonder if it's still going to be in people's minds. Yeah, it feels like a watchman you know. I think you're totally right that just the times caught up with it in such incredibly powerful way, it's hard to imagine it not really like coming all the way through. Yeah, and this sounds really cynical but like. With all of the protests recently and the launch of Hbo Max Bizarrely happening around the same time. HBO is able to be like. Hey, look, put it on our front page. Watch watchman, you know and. What weekend watching it for free yeah I mean it feels a bit opportunistic shore, but like that might work I would I would like to. For the plot against America, which you know is certainly going to be in the because I don't think it'll get overlooked but that premiered, you know. At the beginning of the. Height of the Cova de era and I think he got a bit lost in the shuffle. Kind of speaking to like who wants to watch what you know in these times like I don't know if that paranoid show about an alternate history where Charles Lindbergh becomes president and is a Nazi sympathizer, and you know I. Don't know if that's something a mood. People were after in March. But it's really great, and it's really you know we we on this show talking about it. She's one of the standout performers in that show, but everyone is great winona. Ryder John Turturro. Completely agree it's so fantastic and but what it makes me think of immediately is like the David Simon Curse the awards. which like it's the real thing? It's a real thing we seem to. We seem to laud his work mostly in hindsight and I'm looking at. A hero, which was his mini series that he did and Oscar Isaac won the Golden Globe for that and I. think that might be the only major award about show one. Thing it was fantastic. It was fantastic just as this is fantastic. So I I, don't know how to Parse that like I don't know exactly what's happening. Because at this point, it sort of seems like we all agree. David Simon, makes great TV. And, of course, he made this one with Ed Burns as well but. Has Been Surprising how muted the discussions about it. Yeah, I I love the pod against America so much. I think in of like things I. my viewing has been lot more limited than yours, but it feels like the best thing that I've seen all year on. That would be really frustrated zoe. Kazan didn't make it through their particular retired. After you like, did your interview. I think a few weeks later. I finally finished it and she has this scene in the final episode, and like she talked to you about how being a new mom like filled her in playing this character, and it's Oh. It was one of the worst devastating things I've I've watched. So I was thinking about watchmen, and like how Regina King feels like. Jinking won multiple. EMMYS already like she is like as award stalwart as. She seems like such an obvious place reward watchmen, but on that show or anything else are there particular performers who you want to make sure aren't overlooked or a baby or especially excited to see them run through their categories. I mean. I loved Jean Smart so much. Not Series. I also really liked Tim Blake Nelson. I think they both. They both grew up and Jeremy. Irons seems like kind of shoe in for a nomination somewhere. Just because he's so well known, but now we're talking about like limited supporting I. Don't know if. It's sort of like the penny seats of. The re APP. WHO's in there like I'm looking at the limited supporting actor gold everything right now as Tim Blake, Nelson Jim Parsons, Johnson, tomorrow Johm Mattel, John slattery like you get some major talent in these categories for sure. Yeah, the big one I'm hoping to see. Is Hugh Jackman for. The movie that HBO bought from Toronto, last year that aired in May, and it was so good, and I think it would have been an Oscar play for him had been released theatrically, but this this is his like awards. Chance for that. He's really great and Allison. Janney knit. Emily asked. It's really good in it like it's so I hope that that movie which I think got some acclaim, but you know again arrived at a weird time, and it was aired on a Saturday night and I. I don't know that anybody was really like. Making an appointment viewing, but yeah I would think it would also be fun I don't know what form. The EMMYS are going to take exactly this year, but like it would be fun to watch Jackman. Give an acceptance speech I. Think I think that. Might you know make people who are? Waiting for the music man on Broadway kind of a holdover. Needs to burst into song. I just watched that. Richard on your and Cams recommendation from your. Piece on the best movies of the year so far it is so good and I also want to mention Geraldine Viswanathan. Often who plays a young journalists at the school newspaper? Who so good you'll recognize her from blockers and I think she's just a terrific actress and everything that I've seen her in, but yeah that that is a really good film. TV Film I. Guess Yeah, and it's it's you know it was an acquisition. It wasn't something that HBO developed, but I think it's a nice throwback to something that's becoming a little bit of a lost start, which is the made for TV movie versus the limited series and again it wasn't made as such. It was supposed to be a theatrical release, but I think it'd be nice if they honored that. Half of that category which I think has been overlooked in recent years. Yeah, you look at the contenders TV movie, and it's about education and the breaking bad movie, but then like this filmed Broadway version of American Sun. Which I guess, that's the quality. The category Hamilton will next year. It's a strange category. Bring back the TV movie. Any final sees you. Guys want to give out to anyone listening. Who might be lucky enough to have an emmy ballot? You know I saw a few people. Put Euphoria their lists, but I think it'd be cool if Sendai would got a nomination, I was with my niece in Mississippi last weekend, watching multiple previous India performances on Disney movies. I'm thinking to myself. Got Ranged. Has Range. She's great and I think she's really great and euphoria. You for you as a better show than it got credit for like all together, but I finally caught up with it during during quarantine. Watched the pilot and I was like. This is too much for me onto this century, okay? But but then I finally I think I was ready for little sensory overload and I think it's great. I think that one hindrance agree that she is great on that show. I think the one hindrance for. Getting awards attention beyond I think some voters lower looking at as a team show, or whatever is that she's kind of the passive observer in a lot of ways in a lot of those episodes, whereas some other characters are doing because a lot of the time. She's Kinda zonked out. Where the other characters get to do the bigger dynamic plot stuff. I wonder if that might be a hindrance or frankly, if academy voters will even think that deeply about it I don't know well. Yeah to your boomer. Vibes point about you know emmy voters. It's possible that they will not really get into it, but yeah, it's. Interesting to see what she does next nothing else. It is true that watching you for you. Hunter Schaefer really popped for me. Because she so much to do in that in that season, and there's so much going on with her character. A tremendous performer thought. Yeah and the guy who plays the horrible athlete. Is Jacob alert. Yes it is Jacob alerting us. That's an incredible performance Even though you know he's not, he's playing. A Monster Essentially, but like I think it's a really smart depiction of that kind of thing. And again it's it just POPs a little more than beautifully holds a show together, but I don't know it's not a show. I'm Richard we should talk about Mrs, America which you and Joanna spend entire wonderful policies and talking about obviously has a ton of places to contend, but also keep it off against Regina King You know it's kind of a dream. Match up where you want them all to win. Anything else Mrs America. You WanNa stump for do that. Simpsons episode where Mr Burns goes to the doctor. The doctor's like well. You have all diseases and they're all. Because you have them all they like? He has a little stuffed dolls, and he's trying to stop the multi door frame and he's like you know. I just feel like Mrs America is that it's like there's so much talent in that. Show that I'm worried that like none of them will break through and actually with anything. Unlimited supporting actress is going to be real crowded like. I think they have five five five contenders in that category. Lynch! It is the lead. Everyone else's supporting yeah? Exactly and I would I would pick would do in that because her episode where she plays Shirley Chisholm is so moving, and actually I think really perhaps gestures most clearly toward the current moment in terms of the lack of intersectional politics within. The women's rights movement. You know she's also an emmy favorite. I think she's the only one of the few people to win a performance for the same role in a comedy drama, because the origins do black kept shifting. Right of course, yeah so I. Don't know she's like Ami's darling, so we'll see. Maybe that could happen again for. I mean in terms of Cape Blanchet squaring off against Regina. King, it feels so weird to have phyllis schlafly going against lake, sisters or anything. Like just like. With with all due respect to Cate Blanchett, like there's a right answer there. They say I feel I mean, but you know that's. That's the point of that performance. In that show is. It's taking this very unlikeable character and and trying to flush it out. Maybe really I wonder how voters we'll take it. Maybe Cate Blanchett actually kicked off the Karen craze with. Phyllis. Schlafly really did She saw the future. Come in with that one. I want to say one one thing quickly. which is that in Comedy Guest Performance Eddie? Murphy might win an award and I. think that's cool. For SNL I think that would be really exciting. Just. A great episode of snl It was such a great episode of SNL, and you know he's he's up against like other snl hosts and Luke Kirby for the Marvelous Mrs Mazel, and whatever Oh Fred Willard is also nominated in that category. But it would be, it would just be so. Exciting to see him when coming back test. It wouldn't make up for the Oscar snub would be helpful. That Eddie Murphy episode of US and L. is definitely one of the things I think like fondly from the before times like that was such a nice thing. Right before Christmas. Thanks on. I'm glad it didn't have to happen on zoom. Who aren't we all. Today's little Goldman is brought to you in part by bark skins. National Geographic's limited series starring Marcia Gay Harden and David Lewis in an epic tale of survival, exploitation, exploration and murder based on the New York. Times bestselling novel by any Pru the series follows a group of outcasts and dreamers, as they battled to escape their pass in the new world, hailed as engrossing by Vanity Fair Bark Skins is for your emmy consideration in all categories including outstanding limited series for more information visit NAT GEO TV dot com slash FDIC. Catch up on the full season now on Hulu. While we're getting to the end of our season of an emmy contender interviews because the nominations are almost upon us, but before that happens, we have Joanna's conversation with Tandy Newton. Hello Joanna back. Tell us about your conversation with Tony. Newton Hello Katie Rich Danny Newton. Anyone. WHO's watching West knows that. If you stumble upon a maeve episode, you're in good. Hands Tandy Newton big favourite on Westworld and she's here to talk about. You know some of the challenges and frustrations. She found in shooting the latest season of Westworld and her hopes for being able to. Return to some of her season one. Involvement in the central plot in future seasons which would be my hope to. So, this is like kind of a real interview. With Hannity. Newton about about Westworld, and Maeve, and the feature of the series, which apparently is there more season, so let's hear from Tannin. A. We are thrilled to have him the podcast. The Great Tandy Newton who t fans might know best right now for her work on Westworld as May. Want to start by asking you. My understanding of the westworld process is that it's quite collaborative that the shoulders like to hear from the actors, their feedback on the performances on the rolls on the story. Is that been your experience with this particular show? They certainly like to have feedback from previous seasons, which I imagine goes towards how we continue I really. because. We're all part of this network, and because there are fears that are consistently part of it I feel like. Of what I am really concerned about is the. That everyone feels good when working whether crew cost, everybody says less about what you end up seeing on screen. It's just more about the welfare of if everybody. And I feel really really grateful. How much they take on input in that respect seriously. You know it's really important that that everyone is is respectful to one another. And that we as much as we can, we have you know Gender Equality Reno. Everywhere that we can in every department, I mean we don't manage to completely with directors. We have more women than men. This year says that it's that side of things. That I feel completely able to weigh in mind fuse Yasim was. Being off the season one extraordinary to play such a will to chart the empowerment of this. Throw Ball for me. It was a metaphor for the dispossessed in the world. And you know, there's no argument the. Life is undervalued and some people just have. The price on on them than others. In terms of how people are. Treated in the world where we're seeing it now with with the coronavirus. I really really I felt so proud to be part of a show that was. That was seeing this this Brown. Woman who happened to Brown? But of course that's a big deal. You know through awareness. And ability to make judgments. May Make independent judgments. She became unstoppable. That was amazing so I don't know whether that established make, but then may has really not one. She was established in season one. She kind of just of carries on in that spirit. It's like the first season was all about the development developing her character, and then the second and third seasons have been you know her just sort of been part of a world that she doesn't want to be in basically I know at the end of season two. You felt that your character may had accomplished what she was trying to accomplish. Freedom for some other people saving her daughter all this other stuff, and then she starts to third season. Of purpose lists she's struggling to sort of give a shit about what's happening in the world around her in it. Takes a while in this. Latest season of Westworld for Maeve to really get engaged in what's going on, how do you given the? Performers. Work is driven by sort of what's my motivation. What's my motivation? How do you navigate a character? Who for so long in the season doesn't have that I? Don't know there's it's been strangely frustrating. But all with a purpose, because at the point at the point when Maeve is presented with a choice, she has to make it. that. Obviously, that doesn't happen till the end of season three so in a way, maid's agency stops again in episode, eight of season three, yeah and I've I've spent basically pretty much to an three floundering. You know having an extraordinary experience and also. Creating a path for the audience to better understand what? What the hosts have been dealing with. You know she's obviously been aware of the enumerated of the this whole west world. Franchise in a wool world shogun world now this dragon world. I wanted to be part of the solution, not the problem. Of course she's not body. And I I really love about her. It had huge influence on sunny on my life yet, but that's just a personal preference whatever whatever wherever they take this I really trust these guys I. think that most the storytellers and I love being around them I love. I love the I really loved the work environment they they create its bloody hardware and can be frustrating. But everybody is putting more than they think they could ever manage into this show, so maybe it's used by Iraq and Oz is dolores and there's so much you know conflict. She so on on the wrong path this season without knowing it. What path do you want her? On FOR SEASON FOUR? No wonder may've just like. Give me a Sherry and get the fuck Outta here. Man, you just make enough shares you go along. I mean I'll I think season four might be like. It's like the season West the whole show has to convince made the it's worth. Sticking around for yet I mean. I felt like that would be a good guide for the next season. Make make may give a shit. I'm fascinated by how west road started out as this sort of big sexy action friendly. Scifi show on HBO became so much in its second and third seasons about. Motherhood and parenthood and family and I'm wondering what you think. The genesis of those particular themes are. Because I think it's trying to show us the cyclical nature of our. Behavior if we don't deal with trauma, you know. Or if we go to sleep on the job, which is basically what we're doing, you know and and. Just having a conscience, not not taking responsibility, not recognizing our agency in the possibilities for freedom and what we could be doing with that, it's like we've all gone to sleep and it's waking up waking us up. You know forcing us to consider these different interactions with people that we've had in our lives, and and how they become drives, definitely fascinating. Yeah, I mean also there's. Who is who? He was childless in the show, a woman who is childless, but the relationships that she has with herself, basically is fascinating to me just on its own. It's like she. She's having reconcile aspects of herself. Through copies of herself you know, and that's so much of of I guess what we do as an adult. You look back at different stages of your life and. Try to reason with different aspects of yourself, certainly the therapy situation. Let's face it in those who've been. Had, the benefit of therapy very often you on talking to your child to your inner child and all of this. I think yeah that that whole kind of decoding consciousness. And and just recognizing how much we do is influenced by those outside of us and you know Obviously the whole notion of free free but yet what specifically around relationships the the themes of very much. Around responsibility and and and cattail King. Yeah It's it's very. It's always much to talk about with less world. Especially fascinating to watch this story of a distribution real world society. In westworld season three. Eden Twenty twenty while we're going through what feels like Dystopia, times and I know that you could not have predicted. The coronavirus some when you were making season three but I also know that the pandemic itself impacted your production. I saw video of you doing some eighty. Our work in your car so I was just wondering if you could talk about some other ways in which you know, the coronavirus hitting impacted westworld season three. Yeah I mean thankfully we were done by the time. Both America and Europe started to really be affected by the coronavirus. And it was only the post production, and those guys over that the team that we've taken care of the visual effects. Sound and everything just I'm amazed. They managed to complete the work. I mean really it's astonishing. I posted my little thing online. He just out of just trying to on the people on the other end. You know I was literally like I'm talking to you in the states. I was on satellite with them. Then you know trying to look cool this this clean soundtrack can I'm sitting in my car in the garage we did it. You know it's it's It was real commitment that everyone there and how it affects the next season. I mean every day. My husband and I are like. Are we ever GONNA shoot again? House is going to be possible. How are you to ensure people? Are you GonNa? Asking people to fly around the world. That's really that could be very could be dangerous but I. Guess the the guidelines that are in place. Hopefully are going to be making sure that we are safe. All of us. I can't wait personally the idea that we when I found out that we had the be picked up on the season. It was more than just westworld picked up for another season. It's like Oh my God. The world is potentially going to be okay. Enough I do this again. Like let's let's hope. Right, so when news broke that there was going to be a four season of West road, there was also an implication that there might be fifth and sixth as well and I'm just wondering for you as a performer. Impact your approach to know or think about the idea that your character might have several. Of Growth or change or movement to go through before it all ends. Well, honestly I look at my little boy. He's six and he was six months old when we started cheating this show, and then I look at myself in the mirror. Is exhausted. Women and I think bloody almond. You Gotta get your Shit Together. Because if you have to play, may began, has an aged by the way. That will. Have anything else to think about when it comes to the show because we have scripts I don't know what's going on. I just think about the fact that I've got to. Somehow you know. Freeze my cells in order to. Play this woman again it's it motivates me to to try and stay healthy. Move is such an incredibly physically demanding role increasingly like all the all the fighting you do. The season looked really tough on my God. The fight that we did out in in the military. Compound we were arrested for days. It was day shooting because they had lots of pieces to it. You know may get so funny helicopter thing and you got all the stuff with Dolores K. lab and all that. So the actual fight, we actually fool solidly for two days, and then there's all the fighting in the in the in the kitchen cantini thing. So you know we were fighting three days, and what really Oh my God what made it so difficult was I had real costume NB that day of of Evan, because she had a little time to upon I had this fool like wetsuit and it was, it was like the upper thirty degrees. Heat out there. It was brutal California late summer. It was so hot man, and I had this fricken wetsuit thing. And also I had padding underneath it for my elbows and my back, and so I was really ready, padded up and hot as hell, and that was the most difficult thing was doing all that stuff while absolutely boiling any no I didn't want to a big sweaty massive crap, especially when Evans light looking all smooth, and he'll like so that was. It was really it was really really challenging, but you know the fights meant to be. Brutal and difficult and and and so. Heartbreaking both of them I, it's just come off Dolores for May it's. None of this needs to happen. You know what I'm getting really into it now. Yeah, but yet the outfit was it looked cool, but wa. It was so hot and because. Each one was was made. Bespoke for me? We didn't have light load said it was just a bit. Like everytime I put on. It's like yeah, okay. I smell myself from the last two weeks. It was A. it's definitely one for Ebay. That question 'cause. It's basically got. Idea is just like in. Not Cost Jim I am sure the costume could walk by itself. Let's just say that. You know the the stakes in western, always really high. Life or death for robots for humans, but in a show where you know printing bodies and moving consciousness around sopping bodies happens all the time. There's always an opportunity for favorite to return when you thought that they were gone for good so that in permanence. Or that relationship with death. And, how impermanent it is in the world of Westworld. How do you then deliver these moments of loss for me? When we the audience know this might not be the last time we see you know. Lease is more or heck door something like that. One thing that you realize. Is that with the with the robots in Westworld? They never knew they were dying again. Because, they would be just wiped, and then they go back into. The Paul can do the same thing over again getting killed in a different way or whatever obviously for Maeve. She becomes conscious to the fact that she's done. Often so. I think that that she sees that as a utility in death for her obviously. But I just equal to platform rarely each time I mean. I think also may is very sympathetic compassionate. So when she sees her story, she feels full them every time. So it doesn't make death less meaningful I. Don't know we'll have to see I mean if. Simon coming back was really huge, and it was really good Place a lease is more. That was really good sort of twist because. We thought he was dead human, and then we assume he is alive human, and then when you find that actually he's a simulation. Is this really cool? Yes characters do come back, but they've always been coming back in a really interesting way. It's not like. West it's not lazy. It's not like all your west will. Wrestle can just bring people back, so they just do it Willy Nilly. It's not like remember on forgiveness. Dallas when Bobby Ewing came back and it was it like the how many seasons they decided to make a dream just to get bobby back I feel like that's going to be anything that Westwood will do with audio respects. Bloody Dallas because that was gold me. No matter how popular characterists and I think this is something. Other shows have done well. I mean there is a real. Value to be kind of show that is comfort enough to. Say Goodbye to carry turnover to see the again. No matter how much you will, audience kicks and screams wants to see them. You know, but I. I I can't imagine how may could ever die I just? I JUST I can't see it happening on earth. Could you ever believe it? You know I did I? I didn't know if that's like some fantastic insurance. I'll always be part of the show. I mean the same could be said probably for Morita with character for Dolores. Offensively the embassies in three, she dies. She gets white. It seems like this big sacrificial moment are we? The audience meant to take that as as a finite ending for her character is this is actually death. Come to Westworld? It suddenly seems to be I haven't had that confirmed, but just me as an audience. And the way fell to the time and ceramic. Who you know is hit. The capability of of his setup is very strong, so if he wipes her memories, and he has no interest in in any of the hosts and Dallas he just wants the intellectual property owners numbers. Add Up to Delors as we know, have been gone, but of course she has populated. The world with versions of herself, so you know. MAYBE VIRGIN! That's in cupboard somewhere that still the old dolores. But I I didn't know whether I could possibly come from And whatever happens is going to be done in a way, which is really surprising and really cool. I mean you know it's like I. DO understand why people want to know stuff that I feel like it gets to a point where you just throw your arms up. Just accept entertainment. It's like okay. This isn't a mass problem. This isn't for me to solve. This is for me to sit back and be taken on a journey you. You know it's like trying to stop the coaster. It's like trying to put brakes on a roller coaster, so you didn't put oil into trying to put brakes on this roller coaster or you know it's like with anything less painful if you just surrender, that's how I feel about it. Making just laziness. Also, I just I really I like I. Like people showing me how they can be I love Westworld will the show runners I'd just get to sit back and frigging law. Actually, that's not true in it, but you know what. I made Scenes I'm not in I. I even feel like I don't know what's happening because it's just such a spectacle, it so beautifully made, and I wasn't that to see it the for a minute. Though I forget that I've even read the scripts you know I don't want to know I. Don't want won't mystery in the end the the surprises to be taken away Goldeneye but you know like my husband and my daughter both read the last page of a nozzle before they start. Say I get it. Hi there I'm Johanna. Desta. I'm a staff writer for Vanity. Fair. This week I had the pleasure of interviewing GMO name. We talked about her role in the second season of Amazon's homecoming as well as the current political moment. Because how could we not? Plus what it was like having Julia Roberts, come to set to watch her act. I actually previously interviewed her for the June cover story, so it was a treat to catch up with her again a few months later so enjoy. All Right, SO MONET! How are you? Today has been pretty interesting and on the edge of your seat interesting. No I wish I. Hey I'm so full like I'm eating. Alter the universe. I feel that I was interviewing a director earlier today. WHO said she was pandemic fine and I felt that on like a spiritual molecular levels St-. All the things are happening, but individually I'm okay I'm dealing. I Love Them. Endemic sign that that's a great way. Yet shutt- Don, porter. And Yeah so I have obviously a million questions about homecoming, and this is kind of tangent. I just wanted to note for our listeners that you posted a really lovely pride performance of Cold War on Instagram, and for those who haven't seen it I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about it and what inspired that? While I was supposed to perform. In! New York City for pride. Search Pry, performance and unfortunately. Due to Covid nineteen. GOT CANCELLED AND Canceled for in person in-person concert, but we still wanted to celebrate pride. We did virtually so. When it was time to pick a song, asked me to do a song, and when it was time to pick it. Was Looking at all of my work and. I had so many songs that are relevant to the times, you know sometimes you want your songs to be timeless. In this case, I just wish that that that Song Co Warren in a lot of my catalog was not. You know relevant because some of the things that we're talking about. More talking about oppression like I. Just don't want us to meet in that world. And here we are still dealing with systemic racism, still dealing with white supremacy, still dealing with violence and murder on black bodies in so called war was a song that I've written I know my first album that dealt with fighting against those systems, and I thought it was the most appropriate you know, considering that we are protesting and marching, and and speaking out for Trans Family in Trans Brothers and sisters who? Disproportionately who are disproportionately affected? By violence in by by you know so many things and you know we're also protesting for Briana Taylor and Tony mcdade and Elijah McLean George. Floyd and Sandra Bland. And, so many of our people so I thought that this would be a song. That I I would hope that would. Keep US inspired and keep us fighting through through the fatigue because we are tired, but we have fighting us. Yeah, absolutely I mean I think it's also a testament to your artistry that you have a song and also several songs that meet this moment. That could be appropriate for this moment, even though it's unfortunate that we are. Dealing with you know this level of brutality again and again, and you also had this I guess a short film or a montage that's playing in the backdrop. Can you talk a little bit about that? And and who made that and where that came from? Well I. I have a projector and I have a room that I do a lot of art installation projects in. and I worked with an editor by the name of. Invasion worked on my computer projects and a lot of my videos and I just reached out to Russia. Hey, can you pull together some footage that that shows? You know the LGBTQ. I plus community celebrating. The show as happy that also shows you know not just our jewelry, but our pain, so people can understand what it means to fight you know fight to have joy in the middle of a war you know and full together as marching in the streets and put together where we are right now in the country. So you know as an artist, which I feel is my responsibility in the words of neither Simone what to reflect the times finally some footage that reflects the times. Yeah and not fitted absolutely does and I think that you know it's also a testament to the fact that people want to turn to art. They want to have joyful moments that they can look at to reflect on time when there's so much chaos so That's something that people can check out on your instagram, and then they can also check out homecoming, which is show that is finally out now. It's been a while since we talked for the June cover story. Features, you and it's out on newsstands now, but. What have the reactions been like for you to see? People finally get to watch the show. Wow so yeah people have been really respectful of the ending. Nobody has really given away the ending I've just read comments. We you know around how intense things are in in some things that I love about the show. People are pointing out like from the score from this. Animal Tiger Affi. to the performances I. I must say I'm pretty hard on myself. because I'm always trying to achieve a new level of artistry and and tapping in you know to the deep as well of what it means to be an actor. In pulling, you know pulling pulling more myself on a screen or even reducing. Myself allowing the character to shine, but I will say I'm a fan of this show. And I just think that the way it was edited. Which is so important? You know the way that. We were able to work together as performers in seeing partners and just give each other what we need it. Is Quite remarkable and I'm just so proud about turned out and I'm so happy that you know. A lot of folks are talking about it, and they love season one in the fact. That I'm seeing a lot of people say you know I love season two. I'd love season. Two like you guys did not did not have fall off, so there's really. You know you wanna you WanNa make sure that. You're bringing more to the table in you're you're? You're also off, not going backwards. Yeah I mean. What was it about the show in its first season? That made you want to sign on for that second season. What had to say you know? This show talks about power in how people abuse power, and I think that it's a character study on so many so many folks. You know my character in particular who is? Fighting against the abuse of power in also in the middle of that trying to uncover her identity because she loses her memory. And we go on this journey with her psychological interviews -I. The, she uncovers her troops and every time. She thinks she uncovers the truth. here's another lies. She has uncovered and I. think that. Corporations in those in the position of power have a responsibility to tell people the truth to not hide information to to to be honest, and and to be ethical, and you know to take care of of those who have taken care of this country and I think that it has a lot to say about that. It also has a lot to say about when women get a position of power How We? Can sometimes be part of or beyond the team movie abusers of our. We can join the Patriarchy and we can adapt behaviors that are toxic to attain that power. You know these are all rules that were made up by by men, but it causes us to ask ourselves. Are we any better if we're playing the same game playing? The same way that that the minute we seek to hold accountable Are we any better than you know when we when we adapt their behavior? Yeah absolutely and I feel like the show does tackle. The show has a lot of layers and. Layers I WANNA get into, but it is spoiler for folks who haven't seen it yet, so I guess I would just recommend watching season two of them. But one thing, I do WANNA touch on to. Join this project. Julia Roberts was the star of season one. She remained a producer for season two, and obviously gave her blessing for you to take over the show and lead the show. I'm just curious. Do you remember what was it like meeting her for the first time? On Julia Roberts while she, you know she such an icon in when she surprised us in popped up onset, I was nervous, you know. Obviously she's executive. Producing play season, annoymous. She had a hand in making sure that I had the lead role. This season was already honored, but I still felt that pressure right so when she showed up on set. We did seeing Stefan. In after we director Kyle Kutch. We heard a loud scream like wow. That in in one of the guys from production leaned in, and said you know that's Julia Roberts. She loved you. Guys. Take and I was like. Wow, that is like the biggest compliment the biggest honor in. Started to relax after after that so it was just it was a pleasure to have her passed me. The baton. Yeah that's so funny that it kind of sounds like she like quietly came to set because she didn't want to distract I. Remember when I spoke to her for the for the piece for the June story, one of the things that she did say was, she tried to make it a point not to hang around the set to often because she wanted you to have space and freedom, and she also didn't want to feel like the high school senior who keeps coming back to the high school like hey guys. That's so kind of her. She can come back any day. She could come back a lot of show. She was so down Earth. You know so sweet. yeah, it's It's amazing that she's like and she's Julia Roberts and she doesn't have to be so. We love that, but one thing that I read. That was really interesting that I didn't know actually when I spoke to you the first time you watched. All of your takes back. Have you always been that kind of an actor and if so? How does that not make you nervous to do that? I guess. I'm very objective with with with my work. You know always again trying to pull from the deepest well in in challenge myself in new ways and making sure as authentic as possible to the character that I'm playing. And I'm a visual learner. You know some people can learn verbally. You can tell them. They'll make the adjustments after see myself in order to correct myself and Kyle which you know who I love. He loved working in that way the he loved. You know being able to say hey. Geno just moved to screen. You know, take a look at this. And as he was verbally talking everything, he was saying made sense when it was coupled with me, watching the take and I think it. It just has to do with former always having to hit your mark watching myself, do talent showcases in one improve you know the next time I did a talent show to my life performances when I'm on tour I watched them every night so I can go back and I could make make those changes for better performance on listening to the band members on listening and watching how we're moving in what's off on the lighting like that that you know that that close attention? To detail, and a lot of people are like you should direct. In an in I think that I should but when you have a great director. Light Kyle Patrick Alvarez who respect your process and. You know allows time for that to happen. It just makes me comfortable. It makes me feel like I can trust him. And you know I can also be comfortable in in the process that because I think ultimately you want the best or in in. That's how I get most times the best work for myself. Yeah, it's so find you say that because I had been reading this interview that Kyle did where he said that not only were you great to work with because of your acting talent, but because you're an experienced dancer, and you're adept choreography, and that is really really helpful for a show. That is this technical I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that like the importance of obtain the connection between like acting in choreography, and if that rings true for you. Yet hitting your mark is is is has always been. Something that we say on stage, and has re dancing, your warning movements staying in the spotlight and doing things in there are some moments in Holcombe. There's this shatter of this one shot where I'm. I don't want to give too much away, but just know they're like this long shot, and and and you know as a one shot for for a few minutes, and it requires me hitting my sir marks, ducking down and looking up in church. You know making sure that I'm moving with the camera at the same time. If the cameras posted land here, I need to be on this mark or the whole scene is in business stops and If I hadn't had that experience in choreography in timing and all of that, I don't know I think it would have been. It would have taken some time. 'cause I showed up the day of. We never really rehearsed it the day before. I think. One thing. I was curious about we. We spoke about this last time and I say last time which was many many months ago at this point, but if you're okay, discuss this one thing I truly found. Unbelievable is as you were shooting the show. Band you were also dealing with the after effects of mercury poisoning while literally having to work every single day. How did you manage those two things? In last year was a tough time I I got I got told by my doctor. The day I came to do like camera tests for hair and makeup and on the set of coming and here I am about to start you know my first role Liro on on TV and I'm already nervous. Already you know, do I know my lines overbearing and freaking out behind the scenes, and and the reason why I was doing all that was was a result of at Mercury, pois-. it it. It messes with your nervous system and you know. Ask felt like I was in myself for a while to get confirmation. was was was was eye opening, and also helpful, because at least I can say okay. Here's one of the reasons that I'm feeling this way A. How do we help it and so I had to start taking. You know collation therapy and kind of cleansing myself from the heavy metals. And I had to use it. You know I had to use the moments of being oriented or using the moments of high anxiety or shyness or you know. All of the symptoms had used that for my character. And oddly I think it works. Yeah now I mean. I commend you for dealing with all that and then still turning in like a really great performance in this really difficult demanding show. To Watch, but thank you for revisiting and talking about that with me. Switching gears almost entirely I do WanNa talk about your most frequent scene partner Hong Chow who plays Audrey. Can you talk me a little bit about what it was like working with her. Home is is one of the best actors I've worked with Swan. She's so nuanced and prepared, and I loved her first season. Is Audrey in south super excited that we were going to be working together and I've watched all of the movie. She's been in TV show watchman like she killed that and I was like. Yes, I get to work with her She super sweet. Sweet! You know a very giving as a scene partner. She made me feel comfortable. Because you know, I'm coming into a built family and you want them like you love you and you know all those things which is great to know that she respected me as well and was excited to take this journey with me off, but I think that you know we find Audrey. In the middle of a lot of mets this season and you know stepping into her power and steel. Still having bigger obstacles to get through, so it was great like scheming with her, and not going to give too much away, but Clotting with Audrey. Powerful women coming together to take down the powers that be. I think that's awesome. And something I wanted to talk about briefly. As well as you know, this is the first year character. This is the first time you're playing out. Queer character onscreen I think in general. When did you realize that was going to be like a first for you? I mean it was a part of the the the scripts? So when I read it, that's what I. Knew the my character was beat, and I was like. Yes, you know being a black queer woman. Leading TV in real life as well as onscreen. To me was was was just is an honor. and. Excited that you know, there was also an Asian woman who was also queer showing up on screen, and just in general like I love. How you know how colorful cast is. That, that was also super appealing to me. as I signed on on project. yeah, it certainly adds to the world, the show and it that was present in the first season, too, but I love that the universe expands and a more inclusive in the second season. Naming sense you know till things like that doesn't make sense they're trying to do that. which applaud the effort, but it doesn't you know sometimes it feels forced, and you're not writing for the human, and that's what I love to like my specifically as it pertains to race, you know the script This season didn't specify character was black. Obviously, I'm black and I'm proud of it, but I will say having a play into stereotypes of what phot-. Riders think black people look like it sound like. Is uninspiring. You know I love when writers hype for the human. You know I'm going to bring that to it I'm gonNA bring whatever actual Blackley should should be to that but right me as as a complicated complex human being you know, let me be seen in that light. So, one thing I wanted to end on is looking ahead into a post pandemic world where we can. Hopefully you know, start resuming TV production as normal I know that you said you're interested in directing. You have a deal to develop your own film and TV projects I'm just curious artistically like what is next for you. What do you want to pursue in a post pandemic world? Was We all know you know? Nobody has been trouble. Of what's next. Don't think anybody could have predicted that. We were going to be in the middle. Of A pandemic right now, and and how it's held up so many productions and You know we've also lost a Lotta lives and I think was next for me. Is is really fighting against the abuse of power in and trying to be a better citizen. and someone who promotes. As much as possible. The fight that we have to have against white. Supremacy systemic racism. The abuse of power in the police force and all the way up into the White House. So that's not mango in how to figure how to tell stories that fight against that in that can turn nearer to those who don't get it. Who Don't get it yet and haven't joined the fight. I also have A. Responsibility in my in my heart. To black women and to portray. US In so many different lights because we are so much in. There's so much brilliance in our work in. Our stories and I hope to as producer and as an actor bring those stories to the forefront, so that the next generation of actors will be written as human beings and and be allowed to decide. How they want to portray their their their blackness versus somebody telling them what black museums. That is a beautiful place to end this conversation gentlemen. Thank you so much for speaking with me today. Thank you so much, thank you for watching taking. That does it for this week's show. As said I will be here to chronicle the emmy nominations when they're announced at the end of July in the meantime find Vanity Fair Dot Com and on twitter at little bold men who we love hearing from you, and you can find on our own. I'm Katie rich and Richard Rilo and Mike Mike Underscore Hogan and Sonia Sonia Suraya. This episode was edited and produced by Brett. Fuchs and this week's award for the best alternate title for this podcast goes to Sonia. With all due respect to Cate Blanchett. Today's little is brought to you in part by uncharted. Gordon Ramsay Laces. His boots grabs his knives and buckle up as he hits the road in the new season of national geographics. Gordon Ramsay uncharted airing. Sundays at ten nine central the multi Michelin Star. Chef and Ironman athlete adventures across the globe, a relentless pursuit of culinary inspiration through exhilarating adventures, the series for your consideration for outstanding hosted nonfiction, series or special for more information visit. Nat Geo TV dot com slash F. Y. C..