2 Episode results for "Skirball Center"
87 Birds of North America
"Swings girls wasn't podcast is all about. Waiting. Owned horse smoking, hot social media strategies, followers, and turn your Twitter account into being told this episode his own joining like with birds. Likes and shares from looking at birds. Not once the point in this really earn watchers edition of tumor. All's one podcast and now here are Joan merge or ways in hand, and never in the moist. I was in good. Mergen daniela. Everybody. I'm Jen I'm Allie, welcome. Two girls one podcast Elian I had a show for a long time, where we use the internet as a script that has not this show that was a live comedy show internet is the script, and we played different characters in that it was called blogs. But that inspired this year podcast along the way before getting to the podcast. We made a web series called two girls one show where we started interviewing people behind internet, posting communities and going on scripted adventures. And then eventually decided that we really liked those interviews and teamed up with the daily dot to make two girls one podcast talking to people behind the internet things that we've been checking out so welcome or happy that you're here and today's show is gonna be fucking amazing and wholesome and I know we always say that and then it's not, but I think today has promised also birding is back bitches. That's right. I was trying very hard to interject too with the bird pine, and I failed. So that's what I was doing over here. We all know so who, who knew birding is not boring birding. Today's episode is earning. He's gonna be thrilled when he listens to the job. No. We're talking to Jason ward, who works with the Audubon society and has a very strong internet presence, especially with his YouTube series birds of North America. He hosts birding challenges identification challenges on Twitter. He is awesome and hilarious. And he's also talking a lot about burning within cities, which I'm really interested in and people are just raving about him. Well, that just flocking to his channel. Yes. So. I was wondering how long it would go on. Have you ever been birding? No. But actually, I do think birds are fucking cool. I think birds and flowers are so underrated. They are fucking awesome. They crazy shit's. Yeah. You know, some people are terrified of birds like that old Hitchcock movie, the birds my mother hates birds. Like when she sees it. It's like she saw like a little rat, or the fuck. I know she's, but she's a strange fear of birds. Wait, you hate bur? No, I think they're awesome, too. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're awesome. But yeah. Have you ever been burning also every time I say burning I'm gonna say at twice say birding? Yeah. That's the only way that it should be said. And I am down to do that, for the rest of the show. And you know why because birds of feathers stick together? Thanks my brother. The, the reason why we're interviewing today. Is that through the internet? This man is breathing new life into betting. Right twice. I'm just saying once one it was fine the way that it should be said. Well, what we typically think of, I think our older, people, elderly people, maybe taking it up as a pastime in retirement going into the woods with Benach dealers. They'll really white people. Yeah. You know, this gentleman is like no anybody should be birding. It's, it's awesome. And so I want, I'm excited. But I think he's gonna get us really excited about it. I like speaking serotypes on a lot of levels, because also his series takes place in Manhattan, which I think of as a bird desert. But especially in my Gration there tons of different species, that fly through who knew it isn't there, a Felker in central park, or maybe that's an urban legend. No, I think there is actually he his, his episodes start. His trailer starts with the story that I share that experience. So I was like bucket. I want saw a falcon div feathering a pigeon on a fire escape, and I was like holy shit s- good. The pigeons virginity. That's deep lower. Close. We use on it like what was it? Like in the moment was at the. It was a falcon, but based on his videos assuming, but everyone was crowded on the street. Corner, looking up at the fire escape was like what the fuck is going down in New York, that always means something crazies, happening and was slowly defending a pigeon with just Nipah feather boom than throw it out like a bad bit just damn just slowly feathering this fucking bird. I don't know if the bird was still alive or not dead. I think it was dead because it wasn't struggling anymore that he, but it was like whenever you see nature in New York City will feature. I didn't stay long enough to see the, the eating, but I'm assuming that was I don't know maybe flies off. But, you know, I have like a little Cinderella moment, every morning 'cause I get these mourning doves. I think they're called after Austria's in what they are. Exactly, but they come to the balcony of my -partment, and they just sit there to them. They're looking into my apartment. I don't think to them, but often talked to them like I'll wake up and be like, oh. So delighted to see them, but you should also sing to them, okay? If they land. Yeah. Yeah. Totally I love being outside, and this is what I want to talk to him about partly is just how do we appreciate nature? More living in cities. There's got to be a way that was such a gen question. Yeah. You're, you're the what goes to the farm. I know putting on a character it sounded like a bit of Stritch one didn't. Oh, you're right. That was good one. But the delivery was a bit flawed who try to how do how do you get cross that it just say with stretch? Like to get that was a bit. Hard to. It's hard to deliver. You're saying both ostrich and a bit of a stretch of a stretch, it was a bit of a stretch as. When actors have difficult dialogue they go to a process called rehearsal, so they can get a feel for the words, right? Right. Do that for this podcast. Got. I see your commitment level. And I noted in your. You know what? I gotta go. This episode is over. Don't worry. I'll do that. I think it's this allusive -ness of birds that makes them fascinating a not super big birds. But a get it. And a family member. Recently showed me an app. It might be called E bird or birds. Don't quote me on that. But basically, it's a nature conservancy or a university was like, hey, wouldn't it be great if we could track the migratory patterns of this bird or that bird, but we can't like put scientists everywhere or put cameras and microphones everywhere? And then they had this genius thought of, like. Oh, right. Everyone has a camera and a microphone in their pocket and so signed up for this app, and it's basically like you see a bird and you get excited about the berbie of no idea what it is. And you go to the app say, okay, I live in the northeastern United States. The bird was kinda gray with a red spec. And you scroll through it narrows it down. You're like, Yep. This was the bird. You sit you hit. Yes. I saw it here. And I guess a geo tags and it creates this huge. Of data and you can actually look on a map, and it's like you can see the birds like lighting up and flying across the United States because thousands of people have geo tagged where the birds are. And scientists can then be like, oh, this, the migratory pattern kinda shifted a little bit because the climate change a little bit or whatever. And it's like, okay, we're crowd. Sourcing conservancy now loved it blew my mind. Know Jason is like plugged into the scene or not. We that's awesome. But you have to trust people if you're using this app and you're all about birds. I think you have to hopefully assume that nobody is trolling the fuck in bird app to know the migratory. Yup. Some. Right. You're what the duck. Lorde. Well, I listen trivia. This week's trivia is pretty straightforward. The question is, which came first the chicken or the egg. Okay. I see what you're doing. This is a this is an anxious metaphorical question about 'cause -ality. How can we have a chicken without an egg heckling neck without the chicken? I, but there is actually a very obvious and clear cut scientific answer to this question. This question is answered, and so your multiple choice is chicken or egg and, and you don't have to necessarily know why. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on why you pick which I'm going with chicken cut, although I'm not sure. I'm gonna go with Egge. I just feel like like a chicken just what like however things volved like it would have had to be an I matter what I would imagine, even if the didn't come from a chicken so stupid. Reasoning Mr. similar was like, well, there must have been an animal before the chicken that evolved into the chicken and then started by something. Right. Okay. I guess, just as easily could have been that evolution created the egg chicken. Yeah. All right. Elliot goes the chicken Jen goes with egg. We will find out the correct answer to this age old question after the break. If you love to girls on podcast, then you probably love the internet just as much as we do or you're equally terrified by it. We've covered a ton of messed up conspiracy thinking that happens on social media, like flatter Thor's troopers now the podcast endless thread is kicking off a new series on these strange history of the anti vaccination movement, my favorite author. Third is produced by WB. You are in partnership with red it, and they're digging into online communities, too, but, you know, they have trained journalists or something like that. No. That cash, they probably have trader Joe's gift, they do. Well Saudi this investigative series looks at the winding story of scientific innovation medical disasters. Online veracity that radicalized new parents and threatens to send us back to the disease. Ridden, dark ages has tag measles. It's just like our show, but with less jazz, Ling make your choice or possessing. Panetta's ling. What's the male equivalent? That's called dickering. Thank you for us. We think you'll really enjoy it. So here's a clip guys. The fact that in two thousand nineteen we're having this debate about measles, vaccine, makes my head want to explode, which is tennis. Strange really strange place in the only people speaking up the parents, endless thread, the podcast from WBU are Boston's NPR station and read it brings you a special series on the history of vaccines in antibac- Sers subscribe on apple pie. Casts or wherever you listen, so, check out, endless threat on apple podcasts over, you get your podcasts and tell them to girls girls sent you. The real product description, for a container of teen hundred live ladybugs from the website, where I purchase all of my livestock, Amazon dot com. I don't leave. He goes for eight Kintu. Up to fifty eight days. Oldie. X twenty dollars and I did. That was aggressive. Think about buying the product that those a little aggressive. A hard sell. What's a fit about to ask same thing? Little like mega hit. Or were, you know, I feel like that's I believe they're very, very tiny tiny little tiny little insects, but they are eaten by other larger insects like ants and ladybugs. Of course, I think they're pests like they are not great for crops or gardening. So you sprinkle a little ladybugs pack of ladybugs on your garden. Just regurgitated the. Eat them. Ladybugs. On Amazon dot com. Kuwait lady books are also good luck just so ill or aware. I recently learned that lady books are beetles, which is obvious. But, like we never think of them that way, their own the same Beatles of gross ladybugs are. What's up with that people? Go as ladybugs for Halloween. Nobody fucking goes as a. Yeah, I'm going to go is a beetle should go beetle sting, but spring Beatles back. Bitches. Tomb is gonna beat all the others in the car. She's unstoppable. Really? All right. What, what's the answer? Korea trying. That's all the counts kids. If you're listening at home trying that's all that matters. If you dare. Doesn't matter because you dried. That's business works. Just try your hardest. Today's episode is about the birds of North America and today's trivia is about birds specifically chickens and the age old, mostly metaphorical question, which came first, the chicken, egg usually we don't really know the answer to that, but science has solved. It very clearly. You guys went with Allison chicken. And Jen said, hey, but I think the answer's going to be some bullshit thing about, neither just knowing you, Matt. He even said the metaphorical question he's going to give us some bullshit, which gave her sickener that dancer is alien. Shaking my head. The correct answer is the eg. Jen gets it. Right. And her explanation was perfectly exactly correct. G new. Itchy new. Arthur genius. Oh my God. So what, what is the actual explanation of evolution is the answer every animal every distinct species comes from another species, and this is sort of evolution is not like, here's a you know, here's a jungle fowl. And then boop chicken appears like it's a it's a slow gradual scale. But and scientists don't know exactly when domesticated chickens evolved from red jungle fowl wild birds that lived in the jungle, but they estimate about eight thousand years ago. There is no definitive egg, that's like this was a jungle fowl. And this was a chicken, but on the sliding scale of Lucien, there is an arbitrary point at which we say now it's chicken, and it has to do with the viability of interbreeding the species, or whatever. But the definite answer is at some point in history. A jungle fowl late and egg and out came a slightly different creature that we now call a chicken. Thus the egg came first evolutionary, speaking at admit that me selecting chicken was a good goose. Is your punch out clock right there? What you punch out now you got that they're just punch out. I those sleep. You got you got. Time. I'm not counting. Really? Considering how many hours I spent awake? I don't have them. Before we get to interview we should play a clip of birds of North America. Just in case our audience familiar, trader Joe's. I never he wouldn't do that to us, if I'm saying, I'm queuing up a clip of show that which is give provides context to our loyal audience. Why would I miss a lead them because you're a trick? Yeah. Also, you watch out because one day genara era gonna get you back and you know why. Because to can plant. Girl, you don't need to drop your make you need to literally smash it against the wall just match it. So good. It's so good. I give you permission smashed that Mike. No, I can't. All right. Here is here's a small clip from the trailer for birds of North America. Starring Jason work. It's not going to. Here's a little snip of what's coming up on this episode of trader Joe's. Honestly you walk in the store. I think I usually cow that episode of TJ's starts with birds that, you know it did it did. All right. Let's hear the real give a hoot. All right. Here's a real. When I was fourteen spotted a peregrine falcon on my window filling. Brock. I never looked back. I don't understand how everyone can't love. I'm Jason ward. This birds of North America. I'm talking to that bird as cool. You go hang out with your fucking. Birding zones. Clean love why at Senec he's fucking awesome. I was dancing. Oh man. I mean, look, it makes more sense when you see the video, where they're chasing chasing birds around central, but you get you get a sense of the enthusiasm here. It's, it's such a great. Well we have the host with us now. So everybody, please welcome. Jason ward. Jason is the community relations outreach coordinator for the national Audubon society, as well as the host of birds of North America. Welcome jason. Thank you so much for having me so excited. So I think we just need to ask like to kick it off. How did you get into birding? We're talking about, like how you think about it as your Grandpa's pastime, but like, you know, you're, you're in cities. So how did this all get started for you? Yes, so first of all, we're not we're taking that old stereotype, and we're just kind of like turning on upside down on his head birding is going to be newest going to be sexy is going to be cool in. Ten years, hopefully hopefully sooner rather than later, we're gonna flip the script on what burning is thought of as. That. For for me, personally, I was always one of those kids, who was always obsessed with animals ever since a young age and dinosaurs started out being my favorite initially. I think everyone pretty much goes through that dinosaur phase and that progressed to anything and everything that can walk swim. Fly crawl in really matter to me birds wound up being my favorite the front runners for multiple reasons. One this super closely related dinosaurs. So may argue rightfully so that they are modern day dinosaurs, in addition to that they have the ability suggested leave in that was something that I admired in what I mean by that is they had the ability to look at their immediate surroundings, decide, you know what this isn't really suitable for me. I need greener pastures in. They can pick up fly. Why and fine a better environment to live in? And that is something that growing up in the Bronx in the projects, essentially that I always admired at kinda live vicariously through bird's as I grew up. That's. Also, who knew birds were so smart. You know, we don't I don't typically think of them that way. But like Arbor d- smart thing, right? Yes. And no. Right. So what have arguments with people who study mammals and insects and fish all the time. And we're trying to decide who's animals are better. I think burns embedded in everything. Tools. They have complex systems of communication. They dance. They sing they do all of these things, and they kind of us humans for their benefit occasionally. So like, there are studies out there that have observed crows. Standing or perching on top of a traffic light in waiting for cars to run over a nut that they dropped in the street. Fly down in they eat the nut, so, yeah. Birds kind of manipulating us. Also at the same time, they are a lot of bird stereotypes that wrong going the opposite direction. So, you know, people think that ours are wise, wise old, I'll not really had already. Have big giant is. And sometimes there is take up about sixty percent of their skull size which, you know, doesn't leave room for brain for a lot of brain. So they're not the wisest animals. There's been several instances in which hours have had to be rescued from lakes, and the reason for that is because they are flying around in a see their reflection in the water in a say, Aw man is another hour attack it in a fly down to attack that other our out that they're not a duck there. Now they can't swim. Jason. I, I read in that verge article with you, you said, you know, people think that we're living like an Disney like world where the song birds are singing getting along, but really birds are pretty vicious. Is that true? Yeah. They're, they're memes out there of people just walking around and listening to all of the wonderful sweet birdsongs just wondering what in the world are. They singing about. They seem happy N reality. They're screaming at their neighbors, saying, you better not come over here. I'm strong the I'm gonna fight to up. An also at the same time. Hey, I'm horny ladies how at NEA. Let me know what's going on. I'm really strong. I would you know, we can let some really cool eggs together. So I mean, the over all messages, Khanna creepy, if you really think about it totally, it's like for buck, Shen and destruction. Yeah. Distraction. That's the name of your band, actually. Yeah. They're co. Oh, God alley. Just please. Please stop with the bond. From hereon out. I'll stop my God. Why are you so? Okay. So Jason first of all, I'm loving this. I might have offices was correct that birds are like flowers. I, I know that sounded stupid, but I'm sticking with it 'cause flappers do amazing surprise things. And so two birds, I'm into it. Did you go from loving birds to bringing them to the masses of the internet? So when a say about six or seven years ago, I yes about six years ago, I was working at this weird mortgage job. Right. And it was like typical corporate America stuff and Mertz to know. Do you need a nest and I got a promotion and that promotion allowed me with the freedom to just take a new hobby and it in a Grammy was a little bit more money to be able to explore this, Hoppy and naturally? I said, okay perfect, I can buy a pair of Benach years now. I have way more free time that I can kind of expand going to bird walks and stuff. So I just I Google local animal organizations in the Atlanta area. Stumbled upon it Lanta Audubon attended a bird walk and the rest is history from there. I started at Twitter, maybe man about eight years ago, I believe, and the main focus of that Twitter for a long time now has been birds in just science communication in reaching the gospel of birds to, to pretty much everyone. What do you think about it? That's exactly what Twitter was created for mass. Method. So that's what I'm talking. Bird is that Jason is that just like a standard Bluebird. Yeah. I would say that in, in the spirit of Twitter, it's a troll bird, probably. That's. So speaking of Twitter, can you tell us about your tricky Byrd, ID Twitter challenges? Yes. This was inspired by Dr David Steen, who has a his own Twitter challenge called hashtag, not a Copperhead. He's a herpetologist in the colleges in, he, you know, people have these irrational fear of snakes so they would post photos of snakes he would identify them for them. And I say, okay, why can do this with birds? They're about a thousand species here in the United States. We can do the same thing with birds. So I decided not to go the route of just taking beautiful pretty photos of birds in identifying them because when we're out there in the field, that's not what we're experiencing we're experiencing birds at seventy five feet high in the tree, and we're just looking at him from underneath, and trying to figure out what in the world, they are in. It's challenging it's tough. I tell people all the time, bird ide- is hard. Never get discouraged. So because of that, took the spirit of that. And I decided, you know what? Let's highlight photos that are out of focus long distance or even less just post some close ups or some sounds of birds. And let's try to highlight what we can glean from those photos to try to identify these birds. I'm just trying to make bird identification less hard for everyone out there because we all everyone, that's in it all agrees. This is tough challenging fulfilling work at the same time. So what are some of the basics of bird identification, if we want to participate in this challenge, whenever I host a we go three rounds? Mondays Tuesdays in Wednesday nights on Twitter, whenever I post a photo I include the location that is so important. I think a lot of people overlook that location, matters greatly because just by the location of the citing you can eliminate tons of birds, so you can narrow it down. Immediately based off location, and then you're looking at things like. The acronym that we use Jisr so. Perfect tacky. Guys, you know what that is. That's foul. This is impressive. Stands for general impression size and shape. That's tough to swallow, I'm sorry, I'll stop go on. That worked on two levels. I thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was the point you use that acronym. You can get a better understanding at what type of family, you're looking at what type of Berg you're looking at. If you look at the size of the Bill, just the overall shape of the bird, they have long legs is, it's pretty stubby, looking just different kinds of things that can kinda Q U in on a narrow down the search for you. So I'm in New York City, and I was curious like besides pigeons what, what are some birds, I might be looking out for? So, so, okay. My brother who also Verda my younger brother. He lives in New York still, I live in Atlanta now and he we compete with each other each and every year. And he sees so much more birds than me, just in the cities, that we live in. Oh my God New York is such a good place to see birds because. Okay. So we all know the concrete jungle right is so many. Buildings and what it looks like not suitable habitat for birds. But then you have places like central park. You have places like Pelham bay park in the Bronx, these kind of, like green away, ses for birds and they flock, I guess you can say to these locations. Yes, I have one, you have like ten. To be fair. He's literally using the correct. It's not even a punt by scientific word for flocking. It does not count. I'm trying. I'm trying. So you have these, these concentrated areas where all these birds congregating. And of course, you have the back that New York is also a coastal city as well. You're seeing tons of birds in the northeast in general end New York is really good haven for birds. If you go to central park between mid April in mid may you're gonna see Baltimore Orioles. You're going to see so many different species of warbler in Sparrow in very, oh, there's at least seventy species at any given point in time in that window in central park. That's awesome. I won more New York bird related question. I watched your episode entitled is, is the central park, Mandarin. Duck the Trump of birds and you talking about, like, how it's really gaudy isn't fazed saved, and earn their positional. I love that. But I didn't realize that the duck that, that duck was brought to the US from somewhere else. Are there other birds like that in New York or like what are some of the most? Prevalent. Yeah. So, so there's many different instances like that. Right. So the Mandarin, duck is a an escapee. So that's a duck that was probably someone's pet or probably belong to some kind of zoo collection somewhere that wound up either escaping or getting dumped there by the owner. Now, those birds aren't what we call chase -able for burder. So that's a domestic bird on doesn't count. It's not a wild bird in flight here on his own volition from Asia. With bird is naturally found. And so it's pretty much just an ornament at that point in time now, there are also, invasive birds that are brought here, either by accident or on purpose by people like, for example, this Shakespeare enthusiast, who decided to bring hundreds of house sparrows in European starlings to central park in different parts of the country in eighteen. Hundreds in release them. Now, there are billions of them, and they are everywhere that is an invasive species is one of the only two birds that are not protected. Federally. So I guess that's what that means is if you see one, you can kinda kick it, and no one will arrest you for it. Nothing go around kicking bird's would if you were to go around keeping birth house POWs European starlings, maybe even a Mandarin duck or to just saying. I had I wanted to go back to Twitter for better or worse. And I wanted to hear a little bit about how that tricky bird ID challenge grew, and, and, you know, the, the, the flight of that challenge, there's another one is you gotta let sorry. Mediocre? I wasn't too sure how it was going to be received by everyone. I wanted to I started to dive all into the Twitter. Analytics? What is Twitter peak times, what times is the best kind of, I guess, interact with an audience at the end of the day, I just decided you know what let me do this game when I have the time to do it. So I picked the time that was best suited for me. And I made sure that I was consistent and people loved it. They absolutely loved it in. I'm so glad that they loved it, but it also meant that I now I have a commitment from one. So I have to keep on producing this game in it can be hard sometimes to find out of focus blurry photos, which is surprising. Again, the interaction that I'm seeing in people, you know, messaging me in, in telling me how much they enjoy it in the fact that they're learning so much from it. That is the overarching goal if I can teach someone how to correctly identify Cooper's hawk versus a sharp shinned hawk, which is one of the biggest questions that we always, get or how to tell apart certain sparrows, or certain warblers during the fall season. Those are the keys. That's kinda what what it was modeled around being able to tell Spurs at look alike, apart from one another. That's awesome. I was curious. I know I was reading like you're interested in making burning relevant to young people. So is that part of the work that the Audubon sites doing, or is that just kind of you and your own? I think that I think this part of the work that a lot of organizations are starting to do when it comes to birds. I think organizations like the national Audubon society, also the American birding association and the American bird conservancy is well, the all of those organizations are starting to put more of a focus on the younger generation is I think that whenever anything becomes more popular it starts to get younger as well. And birding I tell people all the time, especially younger crowds. It's Pokemon go. But with real birds with rarely animals and his hunting without the gore is well, there's a lot of factors out there that can kinda hook someone in and get them really addicted to it. So I think that it's going to be younger, and it's, it's going to become more diverse. As well as it grows in popularity and dove tailing off that got him. So sorry God building her. Her. How is it internet being used to attract a younger and more diverse crowd? You know, a lot of people look back in the good old days and they say that was such a simpler time. I would much rather live during that time I disagree. I think that's nonsense, I would much rather live to in today's world where we have yes to stow, many things I can speak to someone across the country, or even across the globe, just by setting tweet out. I think that the rise of the internet in especi-, especially social media has helped a lot when it comes to just seeing familiar faces out there. I think that that's one of the most unique parts about all of this. For example, there aren't I don't know if anyone ear knew this, but aren't a lot of black burgers out there just gonna shock there. They're using social media. I can see that there are indeed other Blackbird is out there in states like California or Illinois, or Arizona, and I can start a network with them. And we can become friends, and we can kinda just. Share things that are familiar to us in, in grow, this relationship in grow friendship, in hopefully, reach out to other people who look like we do as well in kind of start a movement, essentially. So I think that being today's world with the rise of the internet and social media is one of the biggest parts about all of this thousand fucking perfect answer. I'm. Over jason. You said that this is Pokemon go. But for real birds. My question there is when I find a bird, can I capture it in a small ball, and then fight other birds you can with it. Definitely do that. Thanks so much for that addition, met that was really. If you if you find a European Starling house barrel. Please captured in a Pok. Mon ball of basketball. Baseball doesn't matter. Capture it as you can do whatever you want with it. You heard here guys. All right. Police pursued. Yeah. So what are some of the best online resources for birding Jason I know I saw something in one of your videos about, like bird list serves like where burgers going online. All right. I don't like this serves. Okay. Okay. List serves to they utilize Email as, as a what they considered to be efficient method of getting information out. So this is the thing if I'm burning in a certain location. Let's say east of this of a city and another bird, who's west of the city. See something really rare in common. I'm gonna find out through Email hours later, I'd much rather find out on Twitter, the moment it happens. So we're starting to move away from list serves in more towards more quicker fishing, methods of communication. So I'm starting to see Twitter accounts pop-up whose sole focus is just to tweet out bird sightings in a certain city. So we're starting to see stuff like that was started seed. Burgers, join a message groups like what's app or group me and they're able to communicate with each? Other much quicker and get information out is well, I think that hide on the frontier of a big boom when it comes to abs- being created specifically for burgers to get information out to one another. That was talking earlier about an app that tracks the migratory patterns of birds based on people's photos of them in different states. So I don't know. There's probably some cool stuff out there that what I think I think I may be mistaken, but I think it was called Ebert or birds. Yeah. And it was like I have Hiebert on my fault. Take the picture, you have is that it was created by a university. Maybe Cornell now. Yes, it is out. Great. I is it? Good. Is this is, is this good science happening in crowd source? I think so. Yes, but I think that so this is what the app is first of all, I think cornell's e bird is the biggest current app out there. The most important as well. In the reason I say that is because it allows you to input data into a global database and Ebert will keep track of all of your data for you. It will compare and contrast it with other people's data at live in the next town over the next state or the next country over you are able to see where birds are at any given point in time anywhere cross the world. And it keeps a one of my favorite features. That keeps a ranking list for you as well. So you can see where you stack up with burgers that are in the same city as you in the same state or in the same country as well. So I love. The competitive aspect of it saw Mabel to see where I rank a currently with everyone. So we've left to hear how this YouTube series came to fruition. Yes. So all right. Of had his Twitter following for some time now. And as I mentioned, consistency is key in part of the reason. Consistency is key is because you never know who's watching so last year March of twenty eighteen the editorial director of topic, which is visual storytelling platform, they reached out to me and said, hey love, which doing hair. Would you like to brainstorm a little bit in work together in the future? So I was like, okay sure let's do it stains information next thing you know, we're on a conference call. And we're just tossing out ideas I came up with this really cool video series that we would record maybe two or three episodes, just showing burning in fresh new light that turned into them. Hiring a director film crew and us going, the central park, two months later in filming the pilot episodes for of North America. So. No kind of media, training know kind of rehearsing or anything. I was just pushed onto this platform this decided to host in the very first scene of episode one, I am walking through this place called sheet meadow in central park, and anyone who's ever been. There knows its place where everyone goes to just chilling. Hang out. They listen to music, a throw frisbees around. They just they chilly sunbathe and they walk a hundred feet out in this field. We'll have these big giant cameras at the edge of the field. And we just need you to turn around and walk back toward us in delivered his monologue. And I'm had okay. But everyone else is going to be looking at me, and they're gonna hear me. So it was it was something that I just had to internally struggle within get over lesson as as performers. I would like to just say that you soared. The first I had to say my favorite part, I wrote this down because I thought it was so adorable is you said something like you know, when you see a bird, you get so excited, there's in this, like you wanna have a party. But you gotta keep the party inside. Side. It's so thank you. So this is how this happens. I'm used to birding, right. So those scenes where the cameras following me around in looking for birds and I don't have to say anything. Those are natural for me 'cause I can do that all day long. But there are certain moments where we are seeing certain birds in hearing certain birds in director, who doesn't amazing job. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. He says, hey tell us how you're feeling right now. When just was like word salad that just came out of me now. It's still going to start using it. I'm keeping my party inside right now. But I'm bailing. Yeah. It's so good. My, my sister tease me about it. She thought it was the most funniest thing that he's ever heard. Also, I love that you refer to peregrine falcons as a sky lambere Guineas. That's what they are. That's where they will be formerly known as moving forward. Skyline Borghini now can start incorporating car puns, and this really opens doors for me. I have a totally different question. Do you have any bird tattoos? I just got one. Yeah. So this is my very first hat to ever actually. Oh, it took about four and a half hours and pretty large one. It's a paragon falcon. Of course, skyline Guinea, this guy Lamborghini. And it's just sitting on my upper show up, upper arm, and, yeah, it costs a lot of money. Did you filmed it, you filled it? That's also okay if you're open to it, I would love for you to join our discord server and drop a photo of your new sky lambere Guinea. Gotcha. No problem. Okay, I'm so excited. Another mother unrelated question. What are I'm just reading something about, like the, you know, about some of the crazy extinct birds that were in this country is that true? You can you tell us about. Like, what are some of the craziest extinct birds that used to be in the US in the US? So we have. All right. All right. So let's start with passenger pigeon right passenger pigeon, which, by the way, pigeon's are really cool birds, a lot of people just think of pigeon than just discount them and just toss into the side and say whatever, pigeon suck hitches are amazing. They are the only birds out there who are able to milk like substance for their chicks. It's called pigeon. Milk comes from their wrote can feed their babies that kind of milky substance. So anyway, passenger pigeons used to be so plentiful in new in North America that older settlers from back in the day, they used to see like what they described as a river of birds that would fly over their heads in darkened the sky sometimes, and we shot and killed them all so that happened. And then there's the myth of the existence of the ivory billed woodpecker as well. That is a bird of the southeastern United States. It was. The largest woodpecker that we had here in the United States. In the reason why it's such a subject of controversy. These days is because there are people out there who claim that they are still seeing this bird around. It's been extinct for over one hundred years, there's no way that they're seeing this bird anymore, but that doesn't stop these ivory. Billed truth IRS from claiming that there's this seeing the bird, man. There's a big online truth or community. I was actually passed a business card at a recent bird convention from someone out there, who said, hey, man, you wanna see a real bird, come talk to us, and he passed the car that I looked at it, and I just laughed because I thought he was kidding. And he's no, man. I'm serious. I have recordings and get out of here their truth for everything in their trolls for everything. So I was just curious like in the YouTube comments on your series or you're getting some crazy responses. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean it's inevitable. All right. So in one of the first videos, we did a kind of like a mini episode tutorial on how to use Benach years. This was shot may of last year since that point in time, I have been introduced to this, what we think of as a luxury brand of Benach, yours who've decided to gift me with a pair of their spiff -i really expensive Benach years, that I would never been able to afford, otherwise. So now I. Those everywhere that I go and the old binoculars I had were Nikon's and during that mini episode on teaching people, how to use Benach goes on holding my Nikon's, and as one person in the YouTube section who just commented to word, Nikon suck. People who are claiming that we're misidentifying some of the birds in, in the videos. And then you have the group of people who decided that they wanted to have these stupid things to say in one of our most recent videos, we did a video with Molly atoms of the feminist bird club. And of course, that brought up all of the trolls talking about why there needs to be feminist bird club in first place in this one guy was like a well, since he so inclusive. I shop at his bird, walk with make America great again, hat Ourika. Yeah. It's, it's really good that my brother and I may have someone who I'm so close with, like my brother who are Mabel to share these stories with, because my brother is so chill. So mild-mannered so agreeable with he's the good guy out of the bunch, and I'm still have a little Bronx in me. So when people say stuff like that, I'm lucky, I have. To really fight back the urge to comment in say y'all go. Let's do it comments like so it's difficult to stay you know, Jason your past this level. Now, you'll have to resort to that kind of stuff. I think the way you deal with, there could be affected, though, like taking into blows immediately. They would down either nor it or fight them. Nothing. Love that. That's your attitude. But Jason don't crow there. Going to be a waste of your time. Just like me. Just have a quick question for you. My daughter is six and she is recently like obsessed with birds in the neighborhood in the yard. And my question for you is like, what sort of kid-friendly gear apps projects, should we be equipping her with because she's, she's all aboard the bird train here. Yes. There's actually a lot of really cool things that you can use to kind of, cultivate that obsession from the app perspective. There's Audubon birds also raptor. ID is well, both of those free apps. Then you have ones that cost little bit of money like Sibley volume to that one is about twenty bucks those apps. Take you inside the world of these birds is shows you their range, maps, it actually plays different songs in 'cause back for you, so you can learn them, the raptor app, actually shows you video of the different hawks in falcons flying around you. You can get a better idea of how they look when their in flight, all of those apps, I know I dove into them when I first started to bird, and I can see kids diving into them in loving listening to the different sounds at these birds make as well. In addition to that, there are young or youth birding groups that exist in different parts of the country. What city D living we're based in New York, but in the suburbs. So yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a New York young burgers club. I just did an episode with the Ohio young burgers club in there of really cool group of younger burgers, who are trying to ushering, the next generation of burgers, they exist from eighteen years old all the way down to about eleven years old. And then they have younger kids are even younger than that. They're kind of a grooming. I guess you can say is so that they become his in finally, this sense of community as they get older as well. So there's no substitute regardless of groups in regardless of, of the app star out there. There is absolutely no substitute than actually just going out there, self no matter. If you're six years old or sixty years old. The best part is actually going out there, putting some binoculars up on some of these birds and experiencing it for yourself. Let the birds do the work the heavy lifting for you. Well, that's sort of my question, but I think he manages answered it, like in the same vein, as you know, what Matt was asking for adults who are novices, maybe who live in cities, and they just wanna get out and get started, like even if they don't have Oculus binoculars like what are some things you can do today? Not really, you know, you definitely amplify and help your experience, but birding in and of itself can be very therapeutic. I think that it's a huge stress reliever to be able to actually go outside early in the morning escape from whatever's going on in your phone, or on the news, or whatever the cases and just going out to your local park and just standing just, just being there listening, sit standing still for a moment and listen, especially during springtime in the all the birds are singing and you get experience what we call. The dawn chorus of birds that had just singing around you. Now we know what you're saying about, but that kind of experience can be sole beneficial from just a mental health perspective. You don't need binoculars you need is your eyes and ears. That's beautiful. Well on that note are, thanks so much for taking the time to be with us. This was awesome. Some might say it was very fly and I have no id-. I knew that was coming. Thank you so much for having Beijing. There's so much about birding that I didn't know also. I know I always say I'm gonna try something but he made that so easy. Step outside right now. And just listen, that was wonderful. I love that. He's like keeping his trying to move this activity forward into the times. Is focusing on diversity. I think it's I think it's really fucking cool. And also awesome. As you know, as we know that he's both online, such a presence and then this activity itself is so, like, in the real world. But they go together really? Well, yeah, and reaching more people, I think it's really cool. I mean I kind of genuinely do wanna get into birding as I've said many times as podcast, I'm obsessive flowers and they feel similar that made sense to me. I don't care if it makes sense to anyone else. But. Yeah, I don't know. It could be an interesting way to meet people like, I don't know this probably birding meet up some stuff, but I don't know. I think birds are really cool. They commit so many different shapes and sizes colors. I also feel like I love scuba, and it feels kind of related to that. I'm going to keep going to stop going to stop. Dating, there's bird dating probably gonna skip that. So bad. Are you gonna? Take up for your little little one. Yeah. Well, let me she just she does it all automatically walk into the school bus stop. Robin freeze its its doorbell. She oh and then she was playing outside just hanging out. I was finishing up some work. And then I just hear her outside going. Laying on the top of a play house, just laying down looking up at the sky doing bird calls just that she's hearing outside in the hopes of attracting birds. So today, she can, then look at them just gotta get her Benach healers, and she's serious adorable. But yet she birdhouse. Yeah, we do. And we usually get of family in there every season. Nothing yet. But hopefully, you know, we haven't talked about hummingbirds. They're so fucking cool. And you want to have a bird mortgage. Matt has a little house. So cute member bird baths. Let's bring back bird baths to my grandmother. Yeah. Speaking of bird calls, I have some calls from the public if you guys are interested. That. Here is a voicemail that we recently got about our books episode our books to Graham episode cargo handlers from the book to grandma and about listening to books at increased. And I want to know that I do listen to this podcast. And most of my guests that want to be, and you guys talk really, really fast and it's great. And then sometimes it's defaults back to normal, and it's prizes me, I'll slow you guys actually speak. I'm sorry. But Allie, does not speak slowly in real life. Fastest soccer's. I know she's like an auction near constantly. Actioning. Hey. Man, I love hearing voicemails from listeners. I don't know it gets me. It's just because the three of us just kinda sit here, you know, chatting, and then Matt's in invasive species wanted to fit that somewhere. But I but then they call. And it's like it's so real all really people. I mean even when people Email us, it doesn't feel as real when I hear their voices. I'm like, oh, this is a real person that's listening and it's so fucking cool. So that guy didn't leave his name, but thanks for calling. This is so odd. But somehow this conversation does feel extremely private until we realize this is a podcast. Greg doesn't like anybody will ever hear these words. Yeah. Well. You know, people listening. All right. Let's keep it might have been a few times where it's like okay guys. Hey, check out. You know, make sure the shows good to go. We scheduled for Monday and jen's like oh, shit. I don't you got to cut that out like my family listens? I said, I said I'd have too much. Sometimes. If you are listening to an audio thing like a book or a podcast for informational purposes like I need to get facts and figures about a topic than. Yeah. One point five speed. You know to, to, to XP like get that information fast all about it. But if you are listening to something for entertainment purposes, Yere, Robin at of its comedy. That's exactly right. My wife listens to calm like all of her podcasts at one point two or one point five, but even the comedy once and I'm like you're missing all the jokes because these are people who are performing for you. And so my question is, like, what are we? Are we a an informative show or are we like people chatting hanging out kinda show? Hi made. We are in between, I think, like informative and comedy. But yes comedy is all in the timing. So I how I work at one point five speed and my voice must be so fucking high pitch anytime. Matt talks. I think people could just up the speed. But then when we to slow down for us. Anyway, I love this wholesome wholesome episode. I thought he was a great guest. I love what he's doing for birding. Don't. Pigeonhole. Birding. We want you to go out in your neighborhoods, and find birds, take pictures of them tweet them at us. Tweet them at Jason get us on the same tweet and hashtag to g one p, and we would love to see what you're finding in your neighborhood. So my Twitter handle is at June. Bugger. J. O. N. B. U. G. G E R. I'm at algal ally jail, L D. And by the way, Jason's Twitter handles at Jason ward, and y you can Email us at two one podcast gmaiLcom. We'd love to hear from you as well as on the phone call us. You can leave us a voicemail and we, you know, might play it on the show, like we just did that number is. Expired, four eight that number again, three four seven six. Unless but at least we love for you to join our discord server. That's discord such to one p jump on in there with other listeners and with us and continue the conversation Elliot to contribute to us. How can they do that please? Go to patriot dot com slash two. G one. Thanks, everybody. Will see next time. Podcast hosted by Jennifer January and Allison Goldberg Ventolin up in a tiny paper and try to a crow's leg produced by that silver in New York City production assistance, is provided by the Allama rat. Show is brought daily. But number ones, their reporting about relying on the internet nor support Domon patriotic keeps this internet Montiel program going. Visit patriots dot com slash Joan one and consideration contribution are already but riot overlords to choose from the best reward. Of course. Is that you'll know to heaven? A sonic universe. If you're looking for another podcast to listen to check out two girls one podcast each week, the hosts dive, deep into the fascinating world of the internet. Whether that's professional tick lers, tender ghostwriters, competitive eaters ace Amar people prepar video game, archaeologists men who want to get pregnant brownies, furriers and everyone else. Two two girls one podcast, I'm Jen alley. We talked him, different internet community. I want to control the emotions of as many people as I can showed up in the website, promptly broke cheating, if it's a building ten the cows, the internet was a novelty economy feeling God. You hear our prayers far baller jerk my. News story about a handsome mum in. Jen in high Valeria. Get a little. Side of the internet with two girls one forever. You get your podcasts. So if you're looking for something, new checkout two girls one podcast.
"Doing Justice" Live (with Preet Bharara)
"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm Preet Berrara. Creeper my full Indian name is predinner sing Berrara. I was born in Punjab. India I grew up in jersey, and I became the chief federal law enforcement officer in Manhattan appointed by the first African American president in the history of the country. That's amazing stuff. As my dad says only in the Medica can this happen. That's me and beyond. She's the co host of CBS this morning, and she interviewed me live on stage. NYU screwball center about my new book doing Justice. We talk obviously about Justice truth and the rule of law and a lot of the stories I tell in the book about some of the greatest colleagues have ever had the men and women at the southern district of New York. Thank you. I wrote a book. So so I'm an author. Which which I've never been before the longest thing I've ever up before was I think a term paper in college. So there's a lot of hard work. So I appreciate your your support have good news. You haven't read it yet? Have you had some of you may be Evelyn woods? It is almost entirely unredacted. So so while you wait for the mullahs report to come out, which may or may not become public read the book over and over and over again, also, I know that you all got a copy of the book that I signed personally. So. No one has ever applauded my six year before. You should still by other forms of the book the audiobook, which did not come with the price of admission so pleased by that also. I've got I've got three kids who are going to enter college really soon. And I don't yet have the money to bribe elite institutions. So thank you. I'm very pleased with how the book has been received. I hope I really hope you enjoy it. I appreciate the support. The fact that a whole bunch of readers show up to live show, the podcast is is very gratifying. We've had some good reviews. I think my staff keeps the batteries away from me. But they assure me there have not been any so far not that. I'm I'm looking not that I pay attention to metrics. But before I walked out here, we were number twenty one on the Amazon. Bestseller list. I'm just a little competitive. Now, let's get to your questions a few. Hey, appre, and these were all from real people who putting questions outside what's the deal with today's news about Michael Cohen and the search warrants, thanks Penelope. So some of you may have seen that there's some news that that some of the search warrant documentation was made public today. And that's a search warrant that was executed by agents of the FBI in coordination with my old office southern district of New York. And what's interesting to me just briefly is that there are still nineteen or twenty pages of that search warrant documentation that remain redacted and that relates to the campaign finance violation. Which is interesting because it tends to suggest that it would harm some ongoing investigation. If that information were to be made public, and as I've said on the podcast, the number of times and others have I think commented as well. The greatest legal jeopardy in some measure for the presence. Is that you had to stay with it by Michael Cohen at his plea proceeding when he pled guilty and allow themselves to be sentenced to prison for a campaign finance violation by making those payoffs right before the election, he said that was that he did that in coordination with and not the direction of the United States individual one is wonderful nickname. And so the fact that there are still some redaction that the prosecutors think are important to maintain means perhaps that there are other people who might be implicated in it. There are other shoes to drop, and so I think we have to monitor that closely, but but that's a sign that maybe we're not done with that. This is from. I think it says Gary your handwriting is terrible. Gary lesser question did a jury acquitted defendant that you personally tried. Why do you think the jury acquitted the answer that is? Yes twice. And I talk about that in the book, I talk I've entire chapter about the moment of jury verdict, and what it feels like in the courtroom and how obviously the person who cares. Most about the result is the person on trial because his or her freedom is at stake. But I say it's also mildly traumatic for the prosecutor to the prosecutors pace. Also, because they don't know what's going to happen because the system hopefully is not rigged. And you don't know how jury is gonna react. And sometimes Justice is served by an acquittal. Sometimes you think Justice is not. But you accept the verdict of the jury and you move on. And I would often say based on things on my predecessors would say that it was it's important to come out forthrightly and tell people. Yeah, I tried cases. And I got a quibbles because there's no shame in an acquittal. You know, again, as I said before the job of prosecutors to do Justice do the right thing work as hard as you can like any endeavor. And if it doesn't result in in in the outcome that you wanted that doesn't mean that you failed. It means that people saw two different way. And I would tell folks after after a verdict, whether it was an acquittal or conviction that you come into the US attorney's offices Trajan started before my time, and you have a discussion about the case. And you never wanted to be. This is important part of the culture. I think of SDN y that talked about a lot in the book that you never want people to think that somehow they failed because he got an acquittal if they worked hard. There are a lot of people by the way that convictions who were pretty fast and how they went about doing the trial that has had overwhelming facts and overwhelming islands is true. Lots of prosecutors. You know, think there are tremendous trial lawyers when they're not they just have a confession videotape and the full decided to go to trial. So it's about the effort. It's not about the. Result. And I think that's the lesson actually applies not only to criminal prosecutions, but to life generally with in teaching or in or in business or anything else. So I made it a point to tell folks. Hey came and had to report an acquittal, and they would be dejected because it was a professional setback. They thought and they thought Justice wasn't done because they thought the person was guilty and that's fair position to have. And I would always tell them look I had to acquittals, and I still became your boss. So it's not the end of the world. Next question. Do you think we should restructure the supreme court to avoid strategic partisan retirements or any other changes to Scotus to de-politicize it? So there's been a lot of talk about I've talked about this before myself about the supreme court, and it's interesting that there's not been balanced between the number of appointees from democratic or Republican presidents that is consistent with or tracks. Or or is correlates with how many years a particular party has been in office based on the vagaries of passing away in the degrees of retirement, and you can have strategic retirements, I guess, I guess Anthony Kennedy did something of that sort to make sure that a particular president appoints, a successor maintaining a particular kind of ideological balance and some people don't like that. And I'm becoming closer and closer to the view. That's not great. There's some people who have been suggesting that we have term limits. I'm coming around to that point of view staggered. Term limits. So that it's not just a matter of luck. You know, even though there had been, you know, certain party has been in office for certain period of time. The disconnect between how many times Republicans been able to appoint someone to the supreme court far outpaces the number of times, a democrat has and it may be in the future that the reverse is true that also doesn't seem fair. It doesn't seem to be what was in the minds of of the founding fathers. So I would openly welcome some proposals about term limits. I don't know how I feel about expanding the court that seems odd and maybe cumbersome to me. But I think the time has come to think about doing something about the length of tenure for supreme court Justice next question. Hey pred-. What's your over under on the release date of the Muller report? That's from Tim and Fran. I have. No freaking idea. I'm of the mind I've said this for the last couple of days, I'm not in the camp at things it's going to be imminent, and it could be proven wrong by the time. The show is over. There are a lot of signs that maybe it's imminent. You had Andrew Weissmann who's one of the principal deputies who decided that he's going to leave. Although I don't know that he's actually left yet. You have certain things that have been wrapping up. I just don't understand how it can be the case you how the Rogers don't trial remaining, you have all sorts of documents have been seized in various investigations, including of Roger stone and others. You have the letter that was submitted on on on the part of the special counsel's office with respect to gates who was a campaign official in the Trump administration who continues to be cooperating, according to the document on multiple investigations, it seems there's a lot more things going on. And then today there was a report that rod Rosenstein. Which is reported with great dramas some weeks ago was going to be leaving soon which caused everyone to think will the mole report must be coming. The announcement reporting today is that he's sticking around for a while. So maybe that's the deal with the fallout of an imminent Muller report seems to be more likely that there's more things happening, and it's not wrapping up. So I don't know exactly when various people who are in support of this book were really thrilled. It didn't happen today. Maybe it'll happen tomorrow. But my bet at the moment, I don't like it's going to it's going to be a little while high pre what would be the question you would most want to ask Bruce Springsteen. Thanks joyce. Dear Bruce Springsteen. Will you come on my podcast? Final question. What keeps you from feeling discouraged? It's a great question because there's a lot to be discouraged about. But I think being discouraged not a very positive force. I wouldn't have been able to write a book about what I think Justice should be. If I felt discouraged all the time, and the people of the southern district of New York wouldn't have been able to do their job if they felt a scourged dealing with the worst conduct and actions that humanity has to offer people killing other folks people engaging in racketeering conduct killing witnesses child trafficking child pornography. Those are terrible things. And I think in the face of that discouraging conduct on the part of other people, I think you get strength from being in the group of people who wants to fix things in wants to make people safer and want to rise up. So in all these tragedies, I always find the good and the hopefulness parkland happens, but then all of a sudden, you have this activism among students, which is spread to my own children who want to do something about the gun laws who want to do something about low voter participation. So I think. The the focusing on what you can do in response to something can keep you from feeling discouraged. I am also terrifically encouraged by all of you who support something that you wouldn't think, you know, in the modern world where people don't have attention spans and don't care to learn about their country or. You know that everything has to happen in three minute increments. And that you are patient enough to listen to a middle aged lawyer who was out of a job. Talked to interesting thoughtful people who speak not in sound bites. But from you know, a deep wellspring of wisdom and knowledge that's actually really encouraging to me about the country. So so thank you. Hiring is challenging, but there's one place. You can go were hiring is simple, fast and smart a place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. That place is ZipRecruiter dot com slash Prete. Here's how it works. Ziprecruiter sends your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology. Ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job as applications come in ZipRecruiter analyzes each one and spotlights the top candidate. So you never miss a great match. Ziprecruiter is so effective that eighty percent of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day. And right now, my listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter dot com slash Prete. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash P. R E E T ZipRecruiter dot com slash. Crete? Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. This episode of stay tuned with Preet is brought to you by the hit Showtime series, billions starring EMMY award winners, Paul giamati in Damian Lewis. I can't begin to imagine why they'd pick. Stay tuned in particular to promote billions, but you know, life is strange and this season on billions, everything changes enemies, become allies as longtime rivals Chuck roads. And Bobby Axelrod are forced to work together to claw their way back on top the scheming and sabotage will leave you guessing as they seek revenge on anyone and everyone who stand in their way. Don't miss the new season of billions which started Sunday March seventeenth at nine pm to get a free month of Showtime, go to show time dot com and enter code Preet. This offer is for first time subscribers only and expires March thirty first that Showtime dot com, code Prete. So now, we begin the interview portion it usually I'm the one who asks the questions, but since it's my book someone else's asking the question. It's my it's my great honor to bring out I'll introduce her then she will take over as the host for the rest of the evening. My friend and colleague gets CNN beyond goal gone. She is currently a co host of CBS this morning, which he joined in October of twenty teen as co host. She's also been a CNN contributor since September of twenty seventeen in two thousand fourteen before that she was with Yahoo news and finance anchor. She for many years with a weekend co anchor for ABC's good Morning, America and business correspondent Rex. She has a lot of expertise in a lot of things, but principally and economics and foreign policy. She is interviewed all sorts of luminaries. Anyone you can think of in every field, including Warren Buffett, Bill Clinton, Condoleeza Rice. And now, she's slumming it with me. She's a proud immigrant. Like, I am. In. She's a fan of stay tuned with pre. Ladies and gentlemen, whose welcomed beyond Golota. I'm not the only podcasts. Big audience here. Yeah. We have a packed house. Yes. Hi, everyone. Can I just say see dad, I didn't have to become a doctor? Well, if I can just put it in context, and then we can get to the interview. So last month, I thought I scored a big interview. It was an exclusive I interviewed the CEO wall way. It was his first interview with an American journalist. So we came back and the interview ran and my phone just started blowing up Twitter was on fire. I'm thinking, wow. I'm getting a lot of reaction to this wall. Way interviews, great totally worth going to China for forty eight hours for turns out Preet had just tweeted that this taking place tonight. So I'm glad I got the mentioned. But it wasn't what I'd expected. So this is a fantastic book. I told you I've read this twice. And it's not for somebody who only cares about the law. It's not somebody who wants to go into the law. It's for somebody who's an American citizen in wants to know how you feel about current environment and laws in general. So as we await the mullahs report, I want to ask you why write this book now? So I had time. Not as much time as I thought because I do a bunch of things. I have these podcasts. And as I say, the purpose of the book, I had this thought of writing, and as you saw on the in the introduction this guide for folks, and then I left office, and I wanted to write something and people seem interested in publishing it. We talk about Trump all the time, and I do too and there's Twitter for that. And I've talked about on the podcast. But I think we've lost sight of something you have people who say with a straight, face, alternative, facts and truth isn't truth. And undermining the rule of law by their rhetoric in about their actions. So I don't talk about Trump's so much in this hardly at all hardly at all. Although he's implied and all of it. Right. Because he's president everything that's going on. It's sort of like. At the funeral of John McCain. Trump's name wasn't mentioned once, but when people talk about decency and honor and truth and dignity that seems to today imply criticism of Donald Trump that says a lot and so people read portions of the book all the things that I say in the book are things that I believed long before Donald Trump ever ran for office. They may have more resonance now could because people are seeing what can happen if you have a president who doesn't believe in certain norms certain principles and certain tenets of truth and Justice and rule of law. So I thought I would take a step back and not talk about Trump and the everyday new cycle and go back to to basics. Like, I said in the preface as what does it mean to be fair minded, what does it mean to do things the right way? What does it mean to do things in the right way for the right reasons all the time through the stories that I have from my time. As US attorney. And I think it's important for people to think about basic principles and learn how to think for themselves, you know, laws are important and regulations are important, and you can write good ones. But that that does not a shore Justice -iety just outcomes or fairness, if the people who are responsible in those oceans of discretion that they have don't take care to do things the right way you or the US attorney for the southern district for seven and a half years. I was the sovereign district. You say this book is a love letter to the southern district. And what sense someone else said that to look so all of you, folks. And there's some people here love letter was for you who. You know, they wonder what's going to happen with Michael Cohen. And they wonder what that office is about. So I wanted to explain to people what that office is about what the DNA is what the culture is with the philosophy is. And in a way, that's not just what you see on television. Or in the show billions. Which interestingly is a sponsor of the show. I read an ad for billions as weak. They're not a sponsor of the live podcast. But what the hell watch billions? It's very fictionalised. And you know, what I don't think this story has been told so much. So people know the big the big cases, people know about the insider trading cases, and some of the other things that get reported in the press, and everyone now knows about Michael Cohen, and they know my name often because I'm a big mouth on Twitter, but also because the US attorney's name whether it's me or someone else's on every indictment, but there are all sorts of unsung heroes whose names you don't know who faces you are not familiar with Kenny McKay. Kenny McCabe who passed away a few years ago from cancer is a subject of an entire chapter. He's basically the guy who after spending a number of years as a police officer fighting the mob, the Italian mafia Cosa Nostra with respect to all five families, then became the most beloved and effective investigator at the southern district of New York you've never heard of him. And he he's a huge guy. Six six gruff Irish guy. He was the guy who arrested John Gotti once upon a time when he was with the NYPD and work. Day in and day out develop an encyclopedic knowledge of the mob at a time when there were gangland killings happening all over the city and people were afraid of extortion rackets when the mob is really at its height. It was Kenny McCabe who quietly just doing his job every day building his cases, I say in the book brick by brick by brick without any flash. He was a tough guy. And unlike some people who like to talk about being tough never talked about being tough. He never had to act tough. He was tough because he was strong and courageous. And I think it's worthwhile for people to know stories about guys like that. He is the real deal. He was the real deal you break the book up into four sections delving into the four phases of a case inquiry accusation, judgment and punishment, which one required the most self reflection writing. Oh, wow. That's a good question. So part of the reason I said that up that way is that's the. Of any case, and they're distinct I do think about what the facts are. You can't make a decision until you know, what the facts are that after you've figured out what the facts are you have to make a decision. Do you charge or not chart same with a reporter in your line of work? You may do an investigation as a reporter. And you have to make a decision. Do you actually run the piece that makes an Asian about someone in your line of work? You don't have the third and fourth phases, which you do in law enforcement area judgement. So who's right and then finally punishment. There's no punishment really except reputational in your line of work. So in some ways, the inquiry section was difficult and complicated. Because there's so many areas to cover what's fair, and right and just in an interrogation what's fair and just right in flipping a witness flipping a defendant. What's fair, and Justin right and using wiretaps in using stings. And so there's a lot of. Sort of moral gray area when you're talking about how to go about investigating someone when something bad has happened. So that I think it's very difficult. I think the most difficult thing where I take a pass is in punishment. So it's the final section of the book where I talk about how excruciatingly hard it is for a judge a prosecutor to recommend a particular sense. And we all have been sort of armchair critics of the Paul Manafort sentence or many of us have been, but it is a really hard thing to decide with particularity when you're talking about human liberty. How many months precisely or how many days precisely is sufficient, but not more than necessary to accomplish the ends of the criminal Justice system to send someone to prison. So in some ways writing that section because there's some terrible stories and sad stories was maybe the most difficult. So my takeaway in reading the book was the inquiry section was arguably. What drove you first to this line of work, and you mentioned, your friend. Jessica who's here and her connection to the Menendez brothers right lead. You to realize that anyone could be guilty of anything talk about your connection with the Menendez brothers because that's the way. So it was a slight spoiler in the first chapter. It's a very good thing, by the way unrelated to Justice. But actually, maybe not. So unrelated if you have one really good dear friends when you're young you should stay in touch with them. So so I didn't know the Menendez brothers. But but Jessica's family did. And you may remember the whole saga, and there have been movies and books written about it's come into common discussion more recently because I think there was a series on television and the Menendez brothers parents were shot and killed and just called me one day and told me about it, and she was crying because the Menendez parents were her parents best friends in the world. And I'd heard about them for a long time. And she was close to the boys Lyle, and Eric and she says, you know, they've been massacred, and they think it might have been a mob hit. And so not to tell you the whole story because you'll read about it over time, it became more and more clear that what seemed impossible that they had been the victims of their own children was actually in fact true. And as I describe in the book just spent an entire night once it was clear that they were going to admit that they had done the shooting, but that it had been based on years they claimed of abuse physical. And I think they might have alleged sexual abuse. We should well how could you have missed that. And I think just felt upset how could you miss something like that when you're very very close, and you've been in their homes, and they've stayed with you for days at a time, and your parents know, them extremely well. You know, what happens, and it's a shattering thing to think that that can happen, and you can get it wrong. But it's a pretty instructive thing for someone in a particular line of work like mine, and so to this day, and that was by the way that happened when I was nineteen or twenty years old and the case so long to finish with three trials. They're all these appeals at the California Supreme Court and the conviction didn't happen. So the murder happened. I was in college. And I think the appeals were done when I had passed the bar exam and just gonna to never talked about the law. We never talked about what the potential sentence would be. We didn't really talk about the legal defenses. We talked about as a human matter. How? Do you miss that? How do you spend time with family and in the murder happens? And you go to the to the service and one of the sons gives a moving eulogy, and you can't tell that it wasn't meant. And that to me was very important. And so when people tell me not to be overly dramatic about it. To this day. When people tell me, you know, what I looked at this. And that person couldn't have done it. I think about the Menendez brothers case because you never know I opening for you captivating the nation. And then Jessica thank you because I plowed through chapter one onto chapter two. So well place, my friend. You also have a chapter devoted to the principles of interrogation. And and we all know this country has a complicated history. With interrogation Abu Ghraib comes to mind you ride in the book. It's obviously illegal in the United States. And you write in the book that the best evidence shows that nothing useful comes from torture. The president told my colleague CVS this morning's John Dickerson that we need to expand the law of torture to allow torture and waterboarding. Can you walk us through? Why you think that's wrong? Idiotic. No. So. In some ways. Thought that it may be the most important chapter in the book because it shows the distinction between what people think is right and effective based on media and movies and television and Hollywood, and what is really true. And so I spent a lot of time talking to real people confirming my own personal, experience and view and to try to communicate to the reader that. It's not just an ideological viewpoint that every effective investigator every effective interrogator understands that it may not sit well with people when you're talking about folks who have committed huge crimes and killed a lot of people. Maybe even terrorists to be nice to them. You don't be nice to them because you want to be kind and decent. You're nice effectiveness every investigator I talked to and in my own experience said if you want to get someone to tell you something you don't threaten them. You don't beat them. If you beat them in threaten. Them. You'll get they'll tell you. What you think you wanna hear which is not the truth? And I think right. You know with some Tang that in the real world where testosterone does not run in a river in the streets. The best way to get people to talk to you is to building reporter. And I think that's really important. And so when the president says who doesn't care about evidence or expertise or data or anything else, whether it's climate change or interogations, it just it's kind of fluffy toughness, which has no basis in reality. There's a lot of misperception about what toughness is and some people think well, you can't coddle anyone that's true. By the way. Also in the incarceration context, people think more about punishment before there's been a crime or a conviction for a crime rather than thinking about the way in which you can get information or rehabilitate people or make people take a different path. And that's just to me. It's it's it's rhetoric that appeals to a certain base instinct that people have about folks who've committed crimes, let's move onto snitch is how should we feel about snitch is the president likes to use that word one of your colleagues called them cooperating witnesses he prefers that. Instead, they can help a case you can also screw case. So and as Michael Cohen considered a snitch so stitches, not a good word. I use it in the in the title of the chapter to be colorful. I have never called cooperating. Witnesses snitch is a rat's as people have been discussing when our president does it. That's the language of mobsters. But there are lots of words that people use to describe folks who decide to flip and cooperate. There's a deep seated human aversion to folks who turn against other people. They used to be close to begin the chapter on cooperating witnesses with a story, and I'm sure my kids this with a story about my my daughter, my oldest child and my middle child when they were like six and four, and and Maya and Jaden whose names I didn't use to mention because I was worried about safety, but I've mentioned them in the book, my was like six and she comes into the kitchen and clearly something has happened outside some criminal act has occurred. And she comes in and sees my wife, and I in in the kitchen, and she has her arms crossed in that tattletale kind of way Jaden is crying clearly freaked out that he's going to be outed for engaging whatever you Rico activity. He was aged. And she's about to tell something and Jaden is crying hysterically and saying, no, my annot. And as I don't know if this is good parenting or not, but I'm just telling you the story we stopped her. And we said is everything. All right. Yes. Anyone hurt? Yes. No. I'm sorry. No, no. Yes. Is anyone hurt? No sorry. And then we said we don't want to hear it. And her very logical. Intelligent, brilliant, mind. Didn't understand that. Because it was not about logic. It was you know, what you don't have to tell on your brother. It's okay. And the point of that story is that it's a deep seated thing, we don't like it, even if it's good even if it's right? Even if it's just even if it causes accountability, we don't like it even in our own family. If one child assuming everything is, okay. So it's not a perfect analogy. We don't like it. When one child is going to tell them another for the sake of telling another and yet in our system that works. It is the most profound tools of criminal law enforcement that we've ever had the mafia would be we had this this assassination last week of the head of the Gambino crime family, presumably, I don't know if it's related to gang violence or not. But that used to be a regular occurrence. That would still be a regular occurrence. You would still have massive extortion schemes and people running scared against them up. If we couldn't use this tool of cooperation, and it's it's a moral thicket, and you have to make sure that you guide your way through it. But it's interesting to me one of the reasons I like writing the chapter it's been interesting to me to hear people who are not schooled in this idea of cooperation one of by the way is the United States who things that should be outlawed because it's bad for him. Is that people for the first time who are not prosecutors are law enforcement officials talking about the morality of it. And I think it's been a useful discussion. And I think people learn a lot about the process by reading that chapter one of your former prosecutors said you may not fall in love with a cough writer right comp because there's danger. It's a weird thing cooperation is so weird because one depending on the nature of it. Right. And when it happens on on day one the prosecutor. Rings, a case United States vs shown. So Michael Cohen, how helpful has he been? So I don't know that Michael Cohen is been that helpful ordinarily, if you're credibly helpful you get what's called a cooperation agreement. He doesn't have one with special counsel Muller. He doesn't have one with the southern New York. He keeps saying that. He's continuing to meet, and it seems that that's true. And even though he's already been sentenced. He's relying on this other more obscure to the public rule, which is number two thirty five and we're real thirty-five motion, you can in rare instances get credit for cooperating with the government, and providing substantial assistance, even after you've been sentenced, even after you've gone to prison. There's some evidence based on what I said before about the redaction of those pages from the Michael Cohen search warrant affidavit that makes it seem like maybe he's providing new information, and he's being very helpful unclear but he's not been as helpful as some people might think because if you had. Been in my view. He would have had a bona fide cooperation agreement with the government, and maybe wouldn't have gone to prison at all. So as we mentioned, the you don't talk specifically about the president much throughout the book, but he looms throughout it and in one area. It's how the social landscape has changed within the country people chanting lock her up at various rallies with the president supporting and other political figures. Aside from being disturbing to watch on many levels. What dangers something like that? Pose? So part of the reason I wrote the book is a concern that in certain contexts, and I get it. I don't like the president either. And not because he fired me 'cause I don't really care about that. I care because I think he's undermining a lot of things in this country, but it becomes dangerous. If you substitute your political preference for what law and Justice and facts require and I fear and by the way, much of this is propelled by the president himself by causing people to think, it's okay in the absence of knowledge about the facts and the absence of knowledge about the law to chant lock her up. You know, the former attorney general was at a rally where he allowed that to happen. And it should have been shut down. And if you believe in proper legal process, you know, there are people who should go to prison because if committed heinous crimes, but leaping forward in a political context saying that, that's okay. I think is really dangerous, and it is going to put into question this thing that. We've all been waiting for the mullahs report, and you have the personal with the biggest megaphone on the planet conditioning. Tens of millions of people his base to not believe anything that comes out of the mouth or the office of the special cross of the special prosecutor. So these leaves to judgement lock her up lock him up. I think a very dangerous for that reason. And how dangerous is the constant questioning and bashing of law enforcement, whether it be Muller, the FBI, I say this because I was listening to an interview that Christopher Wray gave about a year ago director of the FBI, and he said what concerns him the most, and why honesty integrity is so crucial within the FBI. Is that one day when an FBI agent is testifying before jury and the jury for whatever reason doesn't believe them thinks they're lying, then we're in trouble. Are we close to that? I think we're getting there. I want to make clear one thing individual or class of individuals is beyond criticism. That's true of the media. That's true to the bench. The courts that's true of law enforcement officials FBI officials. There are people who wander away from best practices who are unethical who do bad things. And that's it's fine to be generally critical. The problem is we've got a guy who takes it to the next level and beyond and so it's problematic. If you undermine faith in institutions in such a cynical way based on whether it's good for you or not good for you. I mean, look the president is what he does with FBI officials he picks and chooses based on whether someone is four hundred against him. It's an article of faith that he hates CNN, and he loves FOX. That's actually, not true. He just recently mocked an attack particular FOX two's personalities on air because they had the temerity to say something critical and be a little bit independent. So I think in. If you're doing it in a way, that's incredibly cynical. That's all about your own self preservation, and you bring all these supporters along and have them doubt not based on principle, but based on partisanship, and politics and political preference. Then I think that's a problem. Let me ask you in an area that you might surprisingly see more commonality with the president on. And that's criminal Justice reform, you say in the book on a policy level, we must rethink sentence link mandatory minimums discretion and charging cash bail. And so many other things do you support. What this president has done thus far and addressing criminal Justice reform. I think it's actually a good result. And I think that a lot of people on the left and the right should get credit for moving the ball on criminal Justice reform. Are they we can do a lot more. And I think if you had a different president, we could do a lot more. And maybe it's the cases people say, you know, only Nixon could go to China only, President Trump could cause that kind of reform to happen in a particular way. Yeah. I think that's to be commended and to the extent Jared Kushner had something to do with it does to become ended. Also was Justice served in the Manafort sentencing. Sentencing is so I said this already wants sentencing, so hard one of the reasons if your podcast listener, you've heard me say this a couple of times. I've never smart to be a judge one of the reasons I haven't is because I never wanted to be sitting in a chair to pronounce judgment on on how many days weeks months, someone should be deprived of liberty. It's just really not my Cup of tea and its subject to second guessing. And how can you really no no to human beings necessarily? We'll give the same prison sense. My view of the Paul Manafort sensing is that it was it was low was it crazy low. Ultimately, I don't think so given how crazy the sense guidelines are which called four lease and the one case nineteen and a half years to twenty four and a half years. I don't know any judge in a case where there were no identifiable victims with depend was was sixty nine years of age with no prior record notwithstanding the guidelines, which some people think are exorbitant. And I think they are also in many respects, I don't think he was getting nineteen and a half. And I'm not saying nineteen and a half and the special counsel's office didn't say. Say he should get nineteen and a half. He'll ended up getting seven and a half. I think that's low given the duration of the crime the seriousness of the crime and all the things you did including tampering with witnesses and sort of flouting the rule of law. But on the other hand, seven and a half years. It's not nothing. Yeah. Significant sense. You devote a chapter to judges, and you write a judge can get a bit too involved in the proceedings provide a bit too much running color commentary act more like an announcer than an empire. You've had your fair share of run ins with judges. You've also had sweet moments though, including with judge FOX who sent you a personal note. I didn't realize you and your wife had been attacked. You'll be about this in the book as well. So one of the principal points. I make in the book, which I say is Tata legiti, and I would say young assistance when they came in the office, and this may sound mundane and silly. But it's really important. Everyone's a human being people are just people and da. But people forget that you go into a courtroom, and the judge is up there. And he or she is elevated in wearing the robe and has a gavel, and you're kind of scared of them, and you think of the ideal of the judge, and the judge is supposed to be someone who's about politics above personal considerations. It's just not true. I mean, maybe the ideal is that way. Doges wake up in the morning. Just have bad days. Judges have insecurities judges make mistakes, and you have to understand their human. They're just humans defendants humans also, and they in a different way, you know, get exalted, and you forget, they're human beings. You think they're perfect and they caused Justice to happen. Impartially doesn't always happen on the other end of the spectrum people demonize dehumanize and forget about and make invisible defendants and their talked about like their cogs in the system when their liberties at stake, and you can wanna fallow. I think I think decency and proper conduct and that way. And there was a case where there was this really really mean Judge Mark d FOX who was mean in the courtroom. If you say in the book if you showed up he used to keep the clock in the courtroom several minutes fast. So if you showed up on time, we're late. And and I thought he was kind of difficult guy, and then not to indulge too much of this. But when I was blind prosecutor in my second year in the office, dying on my wife, and I were were mugged at knifepoint. And it was it was a scary moment. And I was I was out of work for a week. And I had a hairline fracture of the skull. She was pregnant pregnant seven and a half months pregnant with. My daughter who like to tattle on her brother later. And it was a tough experience for for my for my ended up being fine. But we do know is going to be fun and the nicest note that I got the most heartfelt note on personal stationery was from judge FOX who behaved a certain way because he thought it was his role in the courtroom. And I carried his note around for months after that because it was very touching. I know a lot of judges. I know a lot of people he wrote one of the few notes, I got some people will send an Email. They'll call. And you realize you know, what not everything is what it seems and people play certain roles, but it is on the one hand true that some judges may seem like they care about Justice, and they have other things in mind, and some judges may seem mean like a boss may seem, but they're very sweet and kind and that was an important lesson to me as we wind down here. One of the things he said, we share it. We have in common is that we're both immigrants proud of events this amazing country. We both came here at the age of two I came from the Soviet Union former Soviet Union you came from India, and I can't help. But notice how often you referred to your parents, not only because you do a great impression of your dad's. They clearly are your moral, compass and the contra. Can you just be sentimental for a minute? I wanna get you teary eyed, but talk about that because I feel the same way about my parents. We're a country of immigrants immigration's front and center these days and the headlines repeatedly tell as many people as I can that. I can't find two more patriotic Americans than my parents who when I come home too, bad mood or depressed about the direction the country's. And they always say we could have been back in Russia. And I wonder what influence your parents had in the decisions you've made your asking me this their present. Yes. Because I met them. And I really like, let's go unsung heroes. Look. If you want to know how I feel about my parents and part don't do this now. But if you open up, the acknowledgments to a lot of people to think, I I think I exceeded the allotment of the page four pages because I'm so indebted to so many people, but I end with a paragraph on my mother and father who did a lot of brave things and came to this country when it was not easy to do. So because they wanted a better life for their children and my dad in particular came from nothing he's one of thirteen one of thirteen we can barely handle three. I shudder to think how many tattle tales were among thirteen. I can. That can put job. And he was the first person that's family to go to college and he cared about education. And my mother is the kind of person that I've ever met, and they raised us my brother, and I in. Suburban New Jersey as I say in the acknowledged also, my parents never really wanted us to become lawyers. They're still Miley annoyed that would become doctors. But the first lessons, I got about Justice and fairness all this stuff began with what they modeled. And what they did. And what they talk, and that's more than you know, putting food on your plate. I think it's more than putting clothes on your back. It's more than anything, the this this idea that if you do the right thing, and you, and you you believe in principle, and you work hard, and you care about other people, and you give back to your country. You know, my parents are also in the way, you describe incredibly patriotic. I have three things that are important to me in my Twitter bio, not necessarily in this order fired by Trump. Banned by Putin Springsteen fan and proud immigrant. Yeah. And one of the things that caused me to be vocal is how much immigration has denigrated in. How much people are talking about people like you and me who cares so much or people like my parents because it's not just about illegal immigration. That's they say that. But because looking at it this out that's bullshit. It's not just about that. The rhetoric is such that immigration from certain parts of the world is seen as bad. There's a certain kind of country that's described with the adjective the begins with S ends with hit. That's not that's not about my children are here. That's not about illegal immigration. So incredible. I was by so many things I'm more inspired by my parents. And what they did. And what they sacrifice them by your parents what they sacrificing what they did. And what you're able to become an I was able to. I think it's crazy. I go by pro my full Indian name is pretend they're saying Berrara, I was born in Punjab. India I grew up in jersey. And I and I became the chief federal law enforcement officer in Manhattan appointed by the first African American president in the history of the country. That's amazing stuff. Immigrants are important. Immigrants deserve an equal shot and immigrants should not be denigrated just because they came to this country because so many of them like your parents, and my parents, and like my own family are as patriotic as any human being ever set foot in this country has my dad says. As my dad says only in the medika can this happen. And it's so true. I think are only in the medic in this up. Okay. Well, I want to end it on one of the rave reviews because I looked for the bad ones. I really tried to look for a bad review. And I couldn't find one and I wanted to end on a review from the guardian and the writer says as with everything Berrara does he writes in a tone that is calm and considered a warm bath after the outrage of Trump's daily tweets. Go on. Was that it? That's it. I was gonna leave it there. I'm going to stay here. I'm going to. Thank you the moment. So as I do on the regular podcast, I end with something that the touch me or move me. And and this week you'll be surprised to learn. It was all the people who touched me and move me in the preparation of this book. And I commend your attention to the knowledge on section where I think my editor. And I think my agent I think my lawyers, and I think my wife, and I think my kids, and I think all the men and women of the us office for this other just New York without whom I would I would not have had this career. I would not have been able to put this book together. I would not be as as inspired as I am to talk about the things that I talk about. But. At the end of the book, I end with the story. That I think is really special. I'm not going to spoil it for you and tell you about it. And I thought I would have had a conclusion after that and say, you know, what was this experience of writing the book like, and what might have I done differently. If I went back and what some removed from the job. What do I think and my editor Peter in his wisdom? He loved the ending of the book so much. He said, no more words because it ends on a particular note. And I hope you appreciate the note on which it ends. But it's always sort of been my head, and I figure I could do it the podcast. I knew a lot about the cases in my office. Right. I didn't know all the cases and some of my favorite things to talk about are the cases I learned about more after I left not just the big deal cases that were in the papers. But cases that did not make the headlines, but the one thing that I discovered when I was trying to tell a story about a case. And did this many many times I went back, and I talked to the agents, and the assistance and the staffers on the cases, for example, the John O'Malley exoneration case with Eric field and Peter cross. And I knew what was happening. I got briefed every day. But you know, what I got briefed in a way that was sufficient for me to make the. Legal decisions and the oversight decisions on the case. When I went to write the book you want more than that. You just want to hear the clinical analysis. That's not interesting. I ask questions like well. What did he say? When you went to the prison and said, I believe you're innocent. How did he react? What did he look like was he happy did he cry? And you know, what I didn't know the answers to those questions because I was so busy doing my job that I didn't have this sort of detail of similitude as they say because I'm a writer now. As they say in fiction, workshops. And I learned so many details about cases, I talk about the cannibal cop. This person we charged was an active duty cop who was a Spiring to kill rape kill and cannibalize people, including his own wife, and there's so many cases like that. When I went back and talked to the prosecutors in my office, and I thought I was well versed on those cases, I knew about the formal legal pleadings. I knew about the judgments that had to be made. I knew what the statutes were. But I didn't know the details of the stories, and I went back, for example. I tell a story about. A baby girl named karleena who was stolen out of Harlem hospital. In one thousand eighty nine. I think and I was involved in that case. And I knew how the sequence of events were playing out. But I didn't know the details of what the mother said in court, the biological mother who lost her daughter for twenty three years. And in some ways, I was gratified that I was able to do this book and learned the details and be able to weave together the stories and tell all of you. But also, I was sad that I didn't take the time when I was in that office to learn the human details of things and to me the larger lesson than that. Whatever job you have whether you're a teacher, a lawyer business person, an engineer, there's so much more richness in all the things that you do, and you can let it go by because you're so interested like I was just getting to the result in making sure that you're making final decisions and moving onto the next thing that you can lose texture and the act and process of writing a book that's a lot of stories and storytelling not just preaching. But storytelling awakened me. The idea that if I ever had. A chance to do it again. Even if I had to be at the office and our later every day, I would spend time hearing about the details learning about the texture and the context and the human reactions because that actually is kind of what makes the world go around. And so I regret that. But I'm I'm glad I learned my lesson at fifty. And so I won't do that again. Thank you all for coming. Well, that's it. For this episode of stay tuned. If you like the show rate and review it on apple podcasts every positive review helps new listeners find the show, send me your questions about news and politics them to me at pre Perot with the hashtag ask Prete or give me a call at six six nine two four seven seven three three eight that's six six nine two four or you can send an Email to stay tuned. A cafe dot com. Stay tuned is presented by cafe is produced by cat, Aaron and the team had pineapple street media Henry, Milwaukee Joe level, Geno, Westbohmen and max linski the executive producer at cafe is Tamara separate and the cafe team. Julia Doyle, Calvin Lord, Bassetti and Jeff St.. Tuned is produced in association, Stitcher. I'm pretty Ferrara. Stay tuned. This episode of stay tuned with pre is sponsored by billions on Showtime. 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