20 Episode results for "Silk Roads"

AT#694 - Travel to Northern Pakistan

The Amateur Traveler Podcast

1:00:17 hr | 1 year ago

AT#694 - Travel to Northern Pakistan

"The bags back on the road and read it's real fast board amateur traveler episode six hundred and ninety four today. The traveler talks about mountains and mosques and jingle trucks the world's most dangerous bridge the Kalash people and the Karakoram highway as we go to northern Pakistan. Welcome the amateur traveler. I'm your host Chris Christensen and I think we have a treat for you in today's episode. So let's talk about Pakistan. I like to welcome to the show. David Harden from travel worn SATCHEL DOT com. Who's come to talk to us about northern Pakistan? David welcome to the show. Thank you Chris. Thank you at least to be. Your accent is clearly not one from northern Pakistan. We're talking T- well you're in the UK. Near Windsor what led you to Pakistan give you the shortened version. But when I was eighteen. I decided to travel overland from the UK to Australia. And I could as far as Afghanistan before you realized you'd run out of land. It was not in the Russians. Got In the way so yes. Well the happens doesn't it tells away two years and decided that still WanNa girl on the Silk Roads still interested Islamic culture and art and architecture and filling in the gaps. Ever since. I've sort of done Australia and Southeast Asia and all of Europe and a few of the songs but Pakistan is always there the one that I needed to to tick off really well in you chose northern Pakistan on this particular trip which as we were talking before hand you said is quite different from southern Pakistan and that would be a whole different trip. North and south is very different. I mean the north. It's cooled in those areas and they three huge mountain ranges. So you have the to the West. You have the Hindu Kush in the sense of you have the character forms and then surrounded on the north and east by the Himalayas. And they're absolutely wonderful mountain ranges but as you get further south. Islamabad where I flew into the great trunk. Road becomes planes. Sunset becomes desert would way down to Karachi New Arabian Sea. So yeah very two distinct areas. Shall we start them in? Islamabad actually just flew into Islamabad as bad as modern city. One of the interesting says the city right next to it as well. Andy which is the ancient city but Islamabad is the modern city Pakistan pill. Much longer grid lines are easy to navigate. I would say that actually just before I started this trip on originally planned to buy a motorbike in Islamabad an travel up through the Karakoram highway and then head off into various places. I'd read about in various books to say that I spoke to that is a big Pakistan community here in the UK. And I have up the friends one. Who's a Kashmiri? And he said well to be honest. I know you're motorcyclist but the roads are something else and I would recommend a jeep at least so you'd better listen to this sort of thing. They listen to him and I got myself a cheap and a guide to me actually at Islamabad airport. I spoke at the moment number weeks number of months. Really sending out my tinman. He can find out about what I want to and that was great and so I had this a jeep drive and I have to say it was probably the best decision. I made an enormously. I would travel alone and make my way round but I think this would have been a journey too far. How did you find a jeep and a driver a Kashmiri gentlemen here in the UK who promotes northern Pakistan but wonderful gentleman and he put me in touch with Earth's people over the and I came up with one Sean who you turn out to be absolutely brilliant and good thing was that. He's his the Chinnery but often is not. We will turn off the rodent gun sale. This liquid interesting here. I suggest we don't do this. And I think the question slips or went what about safety because one sure yeah this image of cool so Pakistan and especially the northern areas and you know I I thought of the trip I plan was to go up towards promised so and Eko took care of it. Sometimes Chris when you meet someone. They have absolute confidence. That you've made a really good decision. They already felt towards the back end of the trip. We ended up in a shallow. He said near the Afghanistan border he said had I gone two weeks earlier suggested shallow harassed security reasons and it's nice having someone who has local intelligence so to speak and he was always on his phone is always checking where we were not set up. There wasn't one time the only time was rather Longley wanting planted in someone's house and it was an old soldier. I didn't notice but his granddaughter sent his granddaughter all and having a cup of tea with him dump. She walked in with this shotgun undecided K. And he said I started brandishing. The shotgun around me and I was okay Maybe I made a mistake too much of a price to pay for a cup of tea but it turned out that he wanted to show me the gun which was made in combat nineteen sixty in Birmingham the UK because as from the UK and then he was crowded this so I mean that's the momentarily. I felt unsafe that that was it. That was the extent to how I felt and say in Pakistan excellent now you said as I said Islamabad. You said that's a modern city. It sounded like in your tone I was hearing so I didn't spend a lot of time Islam Abbad. I was more interested in the mountain. I sort of pasta very quickly. In fact which we left about an hour nine did we did come back so actually to see Faisal mosque. Okay which is a really beautiful most very modern initiative about nine thousand nine hundred and again a very very beautiful most news in the foothills of the Himalayas. It's great visit down as the last place of his. But I'll tell you about that. I if I may so folks in about nine thousand nine hundred. Eighty eight defies most because in Faisal of Saudi Arabia. Stunt up the hundred and twenty million dollars. Us to build it as one does the money partly he fis but what is interesting is he. Made a competition to will be architects. Come up with the design. Took you shocked. The name one is an Basti. The whole architecture on a Bedouin. Tent shot was pretty interesting in the appealed to King Faisal and he's a magnificent structure because it's like an eight sided tend to really doesn't like a tent and so big on this enormous white marble and gray marble and you just see it for miles driving towards thinking okay. Looks Okay and something. You just don't know the ten minutes down the road you think. I'm sure I should have been by now this grid system of Islam about so you go up. It's the end of the road unless they just ended up votes off the Bat. So twenty minutes you eventually get close to it and then you start to really appreciate the enormity of small the structure and get three hundred thousand people praying ally inside. I think it's ten thousand but with the porticos and the data coca grounds. You've got three hundred thousand people. Pray there and it was real highlight. Visit every interested in style of architecture. But one thing is that if people do visit to you have to take your shoes and men and this white marble and greyish sort of marble and it wasn't a particularly sunny hot day but every time I stepped off the white mob wants the gray marble. My feet wants to get an angle for a pit shuttle. Take a shortcut to the record. My feet was scolded eventually got in as well but that just finished prayer and like go up to the main entrance to get inside to have a look at this incredible space inside and they said No. I'm sorry you can't come in and I said well look. I sort of come with away from London. See this is. This is typical of buckets. Johnny people that they will try and be as helpful as possible really nice and he said okay look you should really go with this young man and he spoke to the man order when we rolled around the back this young man to be around the back and there was a back door and he took my camera with me. He said look no pitches inside and just tap a low. I thought this really really nice touch and again to tread on the carpet I saw rob and really nice and re serene place children. Having lessons and really great atmosphere. I came back and said I gave him my camera and come back and I was sort of going to complaints because everyone in that had come phones. So fees and pitches thinking well. I was lucky enough to be let in so I wasn't going to push that but really worth of visit. This is a lot of history to this place. That modern architecture ignace absolutely stunning in the surroundings of the hills with the backdrop of the foothills of the Himalayas. It's a location excellent. Will shall we move off then into the Himalayas left is really quite quickly and traveled up the Karakoram Highway? After a couple of hours we went up the form highway after a couple of hours we reach about Abed. Handsome lunch about about is famous or infamous or where? Osama bin Laden was held up and was eventually killed. Okay you could send so. It's perhaps a little bit attention but nothing. That would worry me in any way often London. Shit about we turned off and went up this track to a place where I spent the first nine. And Ron it's a very hilly place in was really quite cold. It's actually a holiday town but on the open's really from May time to sing. I actually flew in in middle of June because as she going earlier to the Northern Territory's divergently impossible with snow a lot of the policies. You just can't get across so you have to time it. Whereas conversely going to the south best time saw wintertime so go to neuron lots of snow bound and some really nice food. I was tied because it was a an overnight flight so early to bed got up and then we headed up to what's known as the Babu suppose which is only opened may June time and that's about four thousand meters up one of the. She's I thought I was going to have was with the altitude. So what Asong is really good is single. Drive you up slowly will take you up out shooting. We've come back down. You can sleep and then we go back up to odds shoots build resilience to out to choose which I'm really thankful for because you've got up to the BUG USSA pause and it's really beautiful. I mean see down. These two valleys in the snow covered mountains. And you can see for miles on a new getting quite close because those this portable toilet the open. It's only open for a few months of the year. They everything this potent Lou. Doc in the middle of nowhere. And what have you? I just thought Gosh. If you'RE GONNA use that WH- perfect location to sit and contemplate for while you come around this bend. And there's this temporary village is small caravans and carcase dyin. And would this will be knocked together. A few permanent houses the walks around how to look at the view and inside the houses was piled with snow because it had so much. Snow drifted through into temporary houses. I say temporary because the inhabited like say from about may through to October. Okay and you say caravan for my American listeners. Your Caravan is my Rv. I think we're talking about a recreational vehicle here I think when I say caravan in Pakistan had probably elevating. Rv To something you wouldn't balk with wheels on the data we go back into the jeep and we headed down. We're heading down to a place called Djilas but with stopped in this. Traffic Jam of the cost was told that the road was blocked because snow comes straight across the road and tawny blocked the whole road number two ways cup of our boss. He was cleared so walk down. The road is steep met. Some young guys we chanted. The hand had some photographs. Take and look at the snow appearing unless thought his won't back up to the jeep and I suddenly felt really lead footed on the EIB so hard putting one foot in from the other and breathing. I saw this sounds shoot thing and guide and the driver ready good. They recognized. They sat me down those water and cut the sweets to sock and we moved after about an hour but after about ten fifteen minutes on this fine hit start me then that I made the right decision to go with these guys just had I just on my boat by firing up the hill like I suppose. The obvious question might be will or about guidebooks in this to you. Read anything that would tell you. This and there aren't many up-to-date guidebooks Pakistan which I think is an opportunity to feel like you're discovering something new and big adventurist by trump pry really informative but of course one thing. I didn't take hours. The after outs chewed up. I but that you you mentioned you chatted with some people as you're walking down the road or up there. Oughta can't remember which way I'm assuming. You don't speak a lot of urgency and so you were finding people who spoke English. It's interesting question because the northern areas of very poor. That's it in the area. There's a ninety cent literacy right. Uh-huh English is one of the main language is up in fact. There's nine different languages. I'll come on. Satellite typically those so many tourists on the bubbling stupas and in the northern areas. Benicia tourists are tourists from southern Pakistan. Okay Yeah and so a lot of the middle class. More affluent people were coming up from Karachi from Hyderabad. Islamabad rope Indian visit on there is because the narrative is starting to become more accessible now because of the roads. There's a lot of publicity people travelling up there. So there's a lot of Pakistani tourists that they speaking southern Pakistan it tends to be were due and English or northern Pakistan. Depending on where you are could be one of nine different languages. From Balti- Xinna does so many these tended to be younger. People families and one thing is really terribly proud in Pakistan and the really happy to see someone who had come over and wants to visit the country interesting that they have been braced phones record. Sure everywhere went ahead a selfie. Oh yeah okay fine. You have selfie and a half the time they didn't ask if I was your foreign at a great selling. I've had that before. I always choose to believe that their listeners the show but I don't think that's probably you should have a t-shirt the aura with the podcast probably wearing a amateur traveler t shirt or shirt or something. While I'm on my travels I wear almost nothing else. So this great great idea. Well I wonder if you look at them new few months time ago. Who's this guy to lead them? I've had people him either. Cameras or indicate the Cameron. I'm thinking Oh. They want me to take their picture. And because I was at a tourist spot and then realize that oh no I want a picture with you and it might be because I'm someplace where I'm particularly tall at six foot three inches tall or blonde or whatever but or foreign something. Different urine someone else's country that really happy to see you. I'm really happy to be. Yeah that's great. I mean I did say to one guy said look. You could do the pitcher but as long as I. Don't end end up on a on an advertising hoarding face laxative. Or anything like that and he Suri. We're going to happen. That's why you say yes and you accept the consequences Happened throughout the entire time pumping the Hindu Kush which are the very few tourists foreign or otherwise in that area but that was greatly ought to Chattanooga's we managed to get through. We went through chill US and again the other thing about having a really good guideline Sean said he said to me. Don't take any pitches in this valley and it turned out. It was a Simi Valley quite fundamental. I think not in a in a sort of. It's threatening anybody but they women. Don't come out do the themselves. The men don't like to be photographed. The women certainly won't photograph so it was nice to have that warning. And you have to respect back-nine sure we powered through Djilas UN. We ended up in a town when then jewelry joined the highway and then went up to a town called cut him about which I really loved. I think it was the second night we spent up there. Now we're going towards the Chinese bold in fact the roads this last major town before the canary poss which is the poss between China and Pakistan. Even the highest pasta will thousand seven hundred meters cement and everyone goes there and has a selfie taken from me to say but I really liked Karoo and when I got there and I was fully rested from the from the UK and at Eton. Well had a walk around the town and it was in the right place. Because I got up at four thirty. Five o'clock in the morning stood out on the Veranda that they had moved hotel and watch the sun. Come Sung caressed recco she mountain which is snow covered and the snow turned gold for a minute and it was like when was the veil was dropping down side of the mountains the sun where made his way down sounds that time of morning so you could hear about two can meet sway in the valley. That was the wounds river charging down and magpies flying round coming to look for food and the whitetail. This sounds excessive. Sounds in the morning you get? It was wonderful people going out for walk in the car is going as real serenity about hope place. Yes I'm here. This is at the pictures I'm saying. Is that this is a rather lush valley in a rather rugged landscape absolutely. When we came down from Abu saw they're very very lush terraces and then as you get rejoined the Karakoram highway. It follows rivers and things it's quite steep but wherever there is a patch of land where it levels off. Then you get vegetation an interesting the as you get higher up as well when he stopped to get off the character on highway into the villages. They have summer houses some field. So Oh sure. They'll grow enough food for the winter and then come back down. So they're always temporary. You'll see by the side of the road as we were climbing down from surpass that were behind on the side of the road they come up from July. The farmers come up and tell us they tend to the fields but they bring that bees with them the spring flowers the and bees make this wonderful honey they sell it and then they take the season off back down to tell us. The the winter to any spay ground is really used. Cultivation that means vary agrarian. There's no industry to speak out about this fall and you mentioned us one question. I had that you didn't mention his. I see that there are some ancient Buddhist petroglyphs in the Chillaz region Did you get a chance to see those or didn't see those because we were delayed getting a cat okay? But further up between Gilbertson current event and placed with Pasu there or of those. I mean they were Karmapa the stones and I think I met another guy up there and he took us there and he was saying they were from about five thousand two thousand. And that's what I was saying like a message. Board like an ancient message older tripadvisor sway described. Which is wonderful because I call the pitcher media. He said it's a message board and there were many different languages. And so you see Chinese. You could see slightly different script tending the travelers in the traders turn left a Karuma. Badin go over this past all. How simple as that. The sacred rock yet. Wonderful to see that goodness me he really get that sense of this well trodden haw. They knew the Silk Roads and the traders and I didn't see them niche last sadly but I got to see them. Further up and they are dotted along. The Karakoram great experience so ancient signs. Aided Joe's basically is what you're saying. Yeah that's it turn left at twenty and others turned out in twenty minutes Bellavia Camus. I suppose sending where the nearest Caravanserais word nature that would make sense. We have modern version which we carry around on our phones but really amazing I really liked. Current does nothing much in the town at Old Fort. I understand this bulky fought in this acid and this area Goget Baltistan and particularly this is the Baltistan area. They could little Tibet because the countryside resembled Tibet but also ot forty-four have Tibetan inferences so the Mir the king of the area wounded go this with crossman could come down from Tibet from Tibetan plains through China and the passing of course they traded not only goods but also services. And things like that. You'll see that a lot longer. Karakorum and that was a real village. Ganesh which can dated from take about one hundred and nine hundred BC and there were some remarkable really small one roomed mosques just really small and ser. Three families of his legacy. They built these small mosques and the very very simple rooms but outside there. Was this wonderful carving in this juniper wood carvings had Hindu influences those swastika that we dislike lotus flowers and the Mirage. As well so the guide of this particular vigil saying well it's because the crossing came down from China and up from India unless they travelled along the Silk Roads and they go release different influences and they just made them into the into these mosques. The ball default is really. It's worth a visit some myth whether it's true but as you come into the Balti fort it's really reliable it. It's quite high up on the top of the town and you'll probably eight hundred nine hundred meters above the wounds of river and is really quite steep drops off and as you come out there. Is this rock which stands by itself which has a flat tall and is about full foot from the way you we come into the Ford apparently to show that you man enough to protect the ones you had to jump from the entrance to the Rock and back and those that failed well. They failed at one time I was at I was okay fair enough. Luckily that sort of fenced it off so I wasn't in any way tempted to have ago but the scale of the mountain valleys. It's really hard to describe actually taught the roads and Karakoram highway is paved for a lot of the way but much of it is still under. Construction is really dusty and rocky and it's more of a boulder field which happened people just have to drive across well and my impression is. It's not like is under construction and then they'll finish it and be done but that it's going to need pretty constant attention because of the extremes of the weather and rockslides and all of that absolutely. You're absolutely right because is under construction. And then every year I went to a marvellous village tarnishing and every year the same people come and just make the road this take the bit between Gilgen combat it paved in parts. But while I was in a bad I shed a hotel with a cycle tour tour to France type cycle tour at teams from Kenya. I think that one from a brand may be sunny the Arab Emirates and those high shit my hotel with the Afghan kinda stunt liquidating one of the one. But I was trying to boss. Well the the wheels are they made of steel. I mean how did you get through this but could imagine these guys on these really thin road bikes traversing this road? I'd come up in the jeep and lucky to retain mouthful of teeth on been bounced around everywhere. I wanted to say actually ran with the bikes and signed with them. They showed me they didn't that was great. So I really enjoyed Kerma baton I went up a little bit further up towards Canaria to Pasu State there enlightening decided to come back to combat on the way to pass. There is this bridge coot Hoseini Bridge. It crosses the Hudson River and his three hundred meters long this bridge. It's a footbridge only and low to tourists but not many people on the bridge climb up and he wandered down everyone's enchanting Mediterranean capital Karachi. Then I said to you across the bridge unique. He kind of looked into shook his head. No no no. It's not going to happen with you. Say It's a bridge. You're being rather charitable. I'm seeing videos of the world's most dangerous bridge. This is a hanging bridge with almost some support in the base. It's not even like it's solid. You got it. Oh my gosh okay. I tried taking pitches. I decided right. I'm here I'm going to go for it. And I think I sort of got a bit of a gung-ho because this young man from the village on the side ran across just across happily the rock suck on his back some fresh vegetables things. He made that really easy. This is GonNa be a breeze semi match up with that I am. I decided to go across when you look at. You just think you start on the planks which probably six inches wide about two and a half feet apart which is fine when you start off because his ground but then suddenly your two or three meters above this raging river this gray gray river which is to surging. Downs finally boiling underneath. You and you think K. Willing I'm going to hold onto this at if strung across you. Hold him under the wire and that's shaking because someone else's at the other side that shaking his well onto each step you make thinking okay. We'll find going a little bit further. I forgot not one hundred meters a how I don't know her because I forgot. If you've got one hundred meters there you gotta get on his back and I was sort of a third of the way through this bridge and bridge. The wind started to get up. So it was wobbling from side to side and up and down and by now to cable which was about as high as my head so you kind of felt safe at now disappeared and on down to waist level. I think the coolest disco leg. Your legs shake doesn't Talk Shit. It took me about twenty minutes to edge my way back I. It was both the most the bravest in the most thing I did on the trip. I think and my understanding. There's the old bridge in tatters next to the new bridge. That should have been a bit of warning shouldn't it? I should've looked on film Okay maybe not. The setting was magnificent. So you go cross this bridge. As Pastor village which is hidden in the trees she lush meadows and in the background. You see what are known as the Password cones these these various spiky sandstone colored so big yellowy color mountains really beautiful setting when I go back and I thank the Lord and everyone else knew is Sean looked to me his head and he took me. We were on their way to passing to look. I know somewhere we drove off of this again. This track up amount in over Ridge and there's this a racist this lovely late Turquoise Lake with fresh water and I did my toes in that and it was a house side it and he knew the owner. I think he was. He had cousins uncles everywhere. This guy he called me lunches ready and it was great. We sat by this wonderful lake. Which you wouldn't you wouldn't even know those attractive and had this wonderful curries and breads and well. I'm looking at a picture of but Tura Lake which I wonder if it might be. It's at least one of these. Many Turquoise Colored Lakes in the region you mentioned the river being gray. Obviously there's a lot of silt is a lot of X. Hemilae as being washed down the river until where the where. The river originates from by the color. Obits if it's gray it's glacier because it takes the earth with it and rocks and cement grey is a really deep solid gray yahtzee right but there are some rivers that you can see which pure spring water and the every night so you get sometimes. Snow Melt will spring and the interesting thing is some of these attraction now spent most of the time off the Karakoram highway. I learned this that. If you go over its best to get through the rivers and streams in the mornings because in the afternoons when the snow melts his infiltrate basically the rivers almost impossible. I mean the seventy times when we actually had jump how cheap and help push some unfortunate manner stuck his van or cheat truck because there was so much water coming through and it became almost impossible and that was in the afternoon so you invariably you start early in the morning to try and get through these rivers. You mentioned the highway again and one of the things that I've seen pictures of and I don't know if it's still the case. Is these really colorful Pakistani trucks. Along the highway almost like Filipino. Jeepney many colors such that is still what you'd find in the Karakoram. Hi It's yeah absolutely. I love him and I was trying to hitch a ride on one. I said to John. A dummy here. I'm GonNa hit you ride. And he said no no on this road when I think about it. You're probably right but he said you know you're interested in that's great and so on the way back from Patiala. He said we're going to go. Terrell Pindi we went to he said. GonNa take the train station. Because that's where the British Army Tame Etcetera Etcetera. They said but I have a treat for you. So it's fine and he took me to truck yacht where they actually make. They have the chassis of the truck. And they make the entire truck in that. So various kind of workstation. I said workstations but areas within that yard. Assemble this truck. I saw how they were done. They welded the onto the chassis boxes. They made that the hoods like cap the the color that the man who paints flowers on so skilled and so wonderful. A lot of the decorations are made with sticky tape. Different colored eggs. Yes so they say they'll cut them and stick them on but but they do it so quickly and so wonderful so you get these bright yellows and reds flashes of silver and some of them have stories. That was one truck that would have just been finished. And it had three MiG jets going up the side which I couldn't quite didn't terribly ethnic to me but it was what the driver it ordered an again with wonderful experience. I spent almost a now photographing and recording. Sounds and things in each stage of this truck being built. But who's like fairground right when they start to hit these off the tarmac roads? The suspension seems to be quite soft. They wobble at alarming rates. If you behind and you see what was your thinking. That's going to go any further over to thirty degrees. It's going to end up down in that goal which seemed to write cells. I I heard a story. I think it's probably true but the drivers are so skilled but to stay awake and alert. They cash marijuana when I cook. Pindi is one drive. Who's taking a truck out? News going to deliver it to Karachi was GONNA take him three days to drive it down there and he showed me around showed me the air conditioning. The air conditioning was like a fan with a battery plugged. This fan into small car. Motorcycle battery is started crying. Sh- air conditioning. Great and any open. This box knows this quite a large quantity of marijuana the Take those for personal use to get him. Through the desert down by quitter places so colorful and all them and also the personal cars and jeeps have black cloth hanging down from mirrors and from bumpers from various other places and and that's to ward off the lie they say apparently distractive ally of worked in case. Although I remember going down I think the valley and I looked down this valley. I did see a couple of wrecks down there. So they'll wonderful those and they carry so much really really great news. It was marvelous. Sean took you to this place. When he found out I would be interested in again. Another reason why you should get a guide and things Rodman. I wouldn't have experienced. That had I tried to do this myself. I could've gone to most of the places by myself. I'm Magin because you can get jeeps and things but if you read some of the books I read as adventurous as is it would take too long. Be uncomfortable and flexible enough well. I am seeing that. If you're in rope Andy and you wanted to see the trucks you WanNa go to railway workshop road which is where you'll find all the truck workshops. We need to move along here a little bit. As what else do we want to talk about on the tenor up to speed up? Because actually I'm just sort of any four days in with up to the Pasu Glacier again wonderful hike but four hours up to the top of this came back through Khoramabad then drove down the character. Um Highway to Gilgit at Beyond Gilbert. We decided to go to village tarnishing heads. Go off the Karakoram. Highway through evaldas stole guests to evaluate which is incredibly steep and again the starting to Tom. Accurate and things quite credible roads and again really really steep side of this valley and you climb up and up and up and up and get this crossroad and if you turn left you go across the disliked planes if you turn right you come to this village tarnishing which each year as a landslide and each year the same drew. Komo built the roads and we went over. That could work which is great. Now's luckily village. I stayed in this couple of guest house. That it's the the start of the client for amounts include Nanga Parbat which is cool to kill amounting and it's one of the highest and region by eight thousand meters climbed over Claes here and went to these villages cold group how the lower and Upper Rupaul and walked towards the base camp anger prevent. Those are lucky. It was nice to be. The electricity went off at ten o'clock so wrote a torch with me with reading writing my journal and suddenly everything just went. Dr And because the stupid. That's my torture. My bag I to me ten minutes feel my way round. Go to bed but we just don't have hit so the next night. I was so good that walked to the base camp response. Six thousand. The son of the Guest House came with me showed actually the contrast between the various tried in the various peoples in northern Pakistan. The language up there in school. Which is the mountain anguish? But going through lower Powell came out should hand bid itself fees the butchering slaughtering goats and we chatted and took pitches. We will turn to. Powell and Upper Powell is a temporary village says to some village really lush meadows leading up to the mountain really wonderful. The people were really standoffish. I told me nine in a in a bad way. You know I'm a foreigner here. All right this is the land that things and I be sliced suspicious if somebody didn't know foreigner came in so I'm not criticizing anybody pretty observing and found out later that they were that was a sin. Even Lower Powell was a Shia. It stopped me the everytime you could almost tell there was a difference between the sort of the sex and in the hunter region where I was about to Gilgal there is molly which is a sect of Shia intend to be slightly more relaxed and the further west. I went over towards Chitra Afghanistan the more it became and then slightly more formal yet. Few Women Bushy no women some of the villages and you drive through and if they saw coming they would just run inside quite a contrast so then from tarnishing across the desolate plains which is a huge plane plateau at his highest tattoos in the world on the mistaken and in spring. Apparently it's full of flowers but when I went to cross was baron with rocks boobs very beautiful in Barron Wade Oldfield's and things on doing many mountains because you're on top of this plane is bound hours bouncing up and down. There's no one road aim for something in the way you turn round. Guerande on the left horn the right eventually. You see something in the distance and you head towards that the time for reflection and olding on was low to moments everywhere and curfew birds but we ended up in Skardu which is the gateway. It's the start of the of the trails that go to the big peaks like k. Two Mashburn the places like go to Skardu Thursday night and after eight hours on this jeep dusty as hell. He's got a cup of tea and look at food and a shower. That will soap out. Went to bed and then three o'clock in the morning I thought who held broken loose. At first I thought it was an air raid siren and it was just you know how you sort of in that half sleep and you know. Sure if it's if you're dreaming or it's reality will this blaring noise and Ventura. I came to and I realize because it was a Friday. It was the first present Friday. Oh that early. Wow five thirty I would have expected. But how three twenty and the other thing which was semi off. Was that the the mosque and speak from. The minaret was right by my room so it was. I got up went and sat on the balcony recorded a bit. I've been in for about half an hour or so but what was really nice. I do really like hearing the prayer. You know you're somewhere else when you wake up at thirty in the morning at least added about three thirty might have different thoughts. You have to kind of wake up wake up and then you know you're somewhere else but what was really. Nice was the the echoes down the Valley and then Moi's from various other mosques joined in so there's this cacophony and Sirri verbal the mountain. It was really really nice. Unfortunately had to leave Scott earlier than planned because originally was going to this really famous road between Skardu in Gilbert apparently one of the most dangerous roads in the world which follows the Indus River but true to form that was a landslide. Completely blocks madly very double back go across the desolate plains again so bumping up and down for eight nine hours and then drop down to the character woman then. Gielgud pregnant. Which that's that's what happens in. Do you accept it really. Nice Hotel. The top of the d'essai planes which sold oiled eggs and bread and tea and so I got to taste in twice. That was a good thing will and you mentioned the second highest place in the world I think after the plateau of Tibet would be my guess. And you're talking about an average elevation of forty one hundred meters or thirteen thousand feet so quite high very very high. This time I was more used to the yeah. Yeah but you feel like you don't top of the world you feel like you're not actually trapping in the world you'll somewhere else when we used to say lunar landscape but it felt like a very different place went to. Gillet yogurts me quite an interesting because the frontier of British Empire in India. Good at that maybe and just went to see a couple of kind of British grades. They're trying to photograph in an old book. About eight hundred thousand nine and I showed it to the guide and Asahi's from Gilgal East. I knew where this is and so we went to find out where this picture was taken so I can look it. Was this really the government office but it was really high security and everything but for me. The new or is is why knew someone there. And we've got in which was great and had a look and I held his photographs. Backdrop and the commander they came and looked until things and it was wonderful. Doing it is. It's a very nice town. Gilgal big bazaar. A lot of people still stuck up if they're gonNA go mountaineering or trekking so it was very very very good. We left that because we had a bit of a deadline to get to the shore pause and now basically heading from Gilbert's in the east across towards a city Chitra Afghanistan's and now we're heading east West so we drove along this again. Bumpy roads would love to have a small town called Glucose which again very nice high not really much to stopping out. Point and in the next morning got up and came to the shunned will cost which full fifty weeks of the year is the There's competency buildings pretty beautiful between two mountain. Ranges wonderful vanity must be two three kilometers wide. Very lush quite waterlogged. Snow melts but for this one week year this Polo matches their incredible both Gilbert and trial. They compete and child always win three teams. Abc and to tell always be Goget said this year ago won the bt one so that was huge. I other when I arrived rides through slightly late in the dusk and I sit on this refugee camps that kind of risky Jacomb vibe. It's tents everywhere. People ambling around people paying focal old man. I have to say is a temporary bizarre which you could go. And it was reducing. I had to walk around but a lot of young people there. And they go and sing folk music and folk songs Danz and it's really lovely atmosphere almost like a festival invited into tense and people trying to make Johnson idea. I returned Don's but you give it a go and then amber out of the way and you say almost like a festival this is the Sean Door Pulo Festival. So very like a festive. Shantou opponent festival. But he's not just polar everything that a huge presence of police and army and I was. I never know about I. You have to obviously quite or by historians but was round by the Polo field and the bizarre is temporary shopping area. That was the police compound compound and and there was this tent which was big. Huge Marquee was brightly lit and I saw people going in and out so I thought that was really interesting. I'll just take a picture and put my camera. A man came up to me. No no no. No don't took a pitch in a very nice way. I said Katie is Tommy is it even no no no no. That's the smoking tent and said well. Sorry what'd you the smoking tent? And he said that's the Hash ten. That's where you couldn't smoke hashish. And also there's a barber in a sorority so this is right next door to cleese compound beside an army base. So that's a ten but people go to ISA's. Yeah yeah yeah he said. Do you smoke hash. I know I know you can't really come in. I said look. He said he had a Baba Yawkey. Get a shave. Even thought that you know that the least young people were again getting completely stoned and then having headquarters shave with something so images of this Baba who's off his head with we've had she shows up trying to cut head. Goodness 'cause those what would come out like did you see incredibly liberal and complete incongruity with the with the police in the pig and this this big huge hash ten which was something out of the sixties but it was you know flashing light. Well sometimes that part of the world and I don't know about this case it's not so much. Liberal as cash is exchanged. Yes Yes yes absolutely the POM Poms. Our oil yeah defined that. There's gambling in the I mean. Obviously you can't get alcohol until I got the SHANTO POSITIVES. These young guys who deal with smoking and everything. I sat down and chanted to them and they played this song and they said we're going to sing you a song and guys. We probably need to talk to you now before we get to wasted he said. Hey WanNA drink snus thing. He said twins a water water right so it was. The alcohol took a sip but goodness felt the animal. Come away from my teeth. It was rough. It was great fun. I mean it was really great fun and the podium understand gave Pirlo but it was really good. What a crowd getting into it. I'd sit in the VIP section which was great people everything to me it look excuse fermented hit each other with hammers new arrivals riding a horse. seemed incredibly violent. It was mildness we still wonderful experience which I wouldn't have had otherwise really chuffed to have had apparently within two days of the festival finishing. It's clear there's no rubbish. There's no tents these temporary buildings and this is back to no one in one of the routes cross from Gilgit to trial so ended up in Chilean. And by this time but sort of time is running out a little bit Rivi. Okay I got to Chitrali's channel Alexei is a very it has a group from Tier abor about it and to give you an example. I was walking around in bizarre. You could buy Chinese dump things Dimsum Tanuku a few Afghans and stop so long. I left there went up to what I think was the highlight of trip that was to visit the Colonia people clash over four thousand of them left and they live in three hidden valley's towards Afghanistan. I'm you spent three days there. I could've spent two weeks three weeks. Just not one value. I was completely entranced by the whole place. The people that don't Muslim. It was efficient cool Caffeine Stone Kefir. Being what people say Info. But I think it's more non believer. That area was cooled after his sons now numerous down and that stretches from citron across into Afghanistan that old area and that's the place of light. I think that translates science but a clash of people earned a bit of pressure from the local Muslim set to try and convert. They believe in spirits and they worshipped nature trees and everything has a spirit and they. They worship it. I was very lucky because Sean new one of the bodies is very commercial but he knew a Hidden Valley Rumba Valley. It's not hidden valley. He knew the chief who had a guest house so we went up. That very very narrow sighted cindy about the narrow so out of Chitra two hours. Maybe I'm Chitra and as soon as you get the. You you cross a bridge you enter a completely different world. It isn't Pakistan it somewhere else. So the men are dressed in shallow. Camis like differ else in Pakistan but the women in black robes and they're embroidered in beads wolves May Greens and Oranges Bright Blues. They were carry these shells they so onto headdresses and they come out in the. Greet you win just interested in me. And they chatted to me without men that do not equal but there were women. Were slight more open and approachable. Not Not afraid to come into an impotent by the religion. I'm talking enough and I still sneak. Contact with chief son. She said Oh he's my son. You Guide you round advantage. I had this guy that we you know. We went in and out of people's houses that were making costumes for the dancing ceremony. Which was GONNA in about a week or so before? Then he took me to the ancient temples which attempts it sound grand. You'd walk along a river over a juniper bridge up a valley posses into some areas and then he said no women are allowed cost here and so Klein said we'd walk through those courtyard so to me to square and listen very simple carvings and appliance. Almost like an ultimate with trees branches and those some blood from a recent ceremony that had happened to women are allowed in there so women onto todd equal but it's very very simple but that's they go to worship and things sounds really privileged lucky to seem and spent time with them and I say walking in other people's houses and I walked around and is invited by woman to have a cup of tea so some little onto onto issues making for a daughter. It was really nice on describe. How a home? I felt the hassle of peace when how welcome and that was very nice but in contrast from there I decided to with Shaquille the some of the chiefs to walk up to bridge which was actually turned out to be on the border. I didn't realize he said this is on the near the border of Afghanistan Ahmad Martin Luther Way it was the actual border. This village was on the border so he climbed which was great and complete contrast they were in your study economy. Kinda stands like say the children the women who ran away and followed me everywhere so it was okay. I'm here and in particular. I want to go into Afghanistan on of those tourists. Take things off. It was very interesting contrast and then we walked down when they were locking juniper high up in the wonderful citrus smell the freshly sworn. Cina politics the clash. It was a really wonderful experience day. There are issues but I hope they survive. I'm sure they like I said it's four thousand. I could stay there for a week. In fact for some of you more adventurous business you can probably get the and spend time just the by you can either drive as a company. Tarmac road up to park. The Larry Bonds after that it comes up again boulder field but she about eight nine hours from Islamabad. Oh that close while I'm in the UK. So eight or nine hours and south of Ron flies every day from Islamabad up to trial. But I say everyday everyday pens because they have to fly through the mountains so they have to. The weather is dependent but I think I saw a ticket for sixty three. Us dollars great value. It's an hour and a half to trauma and another couple of hours. It's doable just to do that. Well I do WANNA start to wind this down. Anything else we should cover though in your itinerary before we get to wrap up questions. No fascinating episode I. They were not on my radar at all. The Kalash people so interesting to hear about. We're GONNA do some wrap up questions. You're standing in the prettiest spot in northern Pakistan. You've you've described so many if I'd made you pick one where you're GONNA pick out of so many would have to be Kerma bad conduct second third to my state at the place the Eagle's nest looking down there and as I told you know the hunter brushing down the surge of water and the sun on record pushy mountain s a really difficult question Chris because every morning was another one. That was some stunning pictures. That I've been looking at here is I've been talking to you. One thing that makes you laugh and only in Pakistan. I think is probably the marijuana ten years on the Shantou plus. I don't know if that was worse than the drivers getting stoned on their drive across this. Yes highway that does not seem like a good combination to me but it doesn't a tool. The food is good. Food is is with this. So much the seventy stand up. I went with some expectations. But to be honest they will completely blown out water. What you say the food but we haven't talked about. What kind of food would you recommend us to try? While we're there who made breads the goat curry's as GonNa Guess Goat. Okay yeah good. Cars definitely the tea at the breakfast in winter. They have a breakfast which is black tea with boiled with milk Sultan and then rancid butter and bread. No I didn't I think go that far. You lost me at the rancid butter actually absolutely not going down there to over black tea with milk and salt actually surprisingly nice with Japan. Tipton set you up today well in our last question if you had to summarize northern Pakistan in three words what three words would you choose magnificent? Wonderful unexpected excellent. Our guest again has been David. Hardine from the travel worn SATCHEL DOT com. David thank you so much for coming on amateur traveler and sharing with us your love for Pakistan. Thank you so much. I've relived again with you. Chris I care about that. Thank you episode much. This has been a long show but I did want to officially announce the opening of the Amateur Traveler Patriots and Patriots. For those of you. Who are not familiar is a method that you can support with regular monthly payments. Creative projects like podcasts. Either this one or some podcast. You like better but amateur. Traveler now has a way that listeners can help support the show. It helps pay for the editing and some of the other costs of the show. I was an anticipated that it would be helpful as it has turned out to be sense. I'm working for a start-up right down that Mr Round funding so I'm kind of on a seventy five percent pay-cut but my thanks go out to those people who signed up even before this announcement so the first five patrons being Tom Shiner Salvia Wong Nathan Yang Jeff Offs and Colin McFadden. You may recognize a couple of those names. Jeff has been on the show twice as a guest and Salvio has been on the show once as a guest and thanks so much for supporting amateur traveler for those of you who are not interested. We're not able at this time to be a patron. That's not a problem and still planning on doing free versions of this show but doing some special episodes for the patrons of the show and then also we just launched an amateur traveler store on antsy and so if you go to the Metro Dot com website you'll see links now to the amateur travellers store and we've already sold the first couple amateur traveler branded mugs and that doesn't count the one that. I'm now drinking my morning tea of so a couple changes the show and I think all of you who have supported over the years with comments and reviews in all sorts of things and those of you who talked me into doing a Patriot program with that. We're going to end this episode of amateur traveller if you have any questions sent an email to hosted amateur traveler dot com or better yet. Leave a comment on this episode at Amateur Traveler Dot Com. And thanks so much for listening. See The gas jam head.

Pakistan Islamabad Karakoram Sean UK Ron it Afghanistan Silk Roads Pakistan Himalayas Chris Christensen marijuana David Harden Islamabad airport Afghanistan China Skardu Andy Kalash Karachi
"Dread Pirate Roberts" Pt. 2: Ross William Ulbricht

Kingpins

1:05:50 hr | 1 year ago

"Dread Pirate Roberts" Pt. 2: Ross William Ulbricht

"Due to the graphic nature of this kingpins crimes listener discretion is advised this episode features discussions of drug use and violence that some listeners may find find offensive. We advise extreme caution for listeners under the age of Thirteen Curtis Green Green was going to die his lungs burned deprived of oxygen filling his chest with fire any minute now in this risk grungy hotel bathroom he'd be drowned more accurately curtis was being drowned. He thrashed and flailed in the TUB trying signed to break free but he was helpless. His screams trapped in bubbles unable to reach the surface. His torturers elbows dug deep into was spine keeping him submerged fanning the flames in his lungs then the torture grabbed a fistful of Curtis's hair and yanked him him out of the Water Curtis gulped an air trying to extinguish his lungs. Another man shoved a camcorder into his sopping sputtering face Curtis Croaked. Did you get it in truth. The drowning was just for show the videographer. Da Agent Carl Force collect an annoyance and stop the recording rewinding the tape. He shook his head. I think we should do it again. Before Curtis Curtis could protest the torture dunked him back underwater force press the Red Record Button and explained we have to make it look real. Aw Months of undercover work on the Silk Road had finally paid off for agent force this stage waterboarding would bring him closer to bringing down on the man he knew only as the dread pirate Roberts he was about to catch the untraceable kingpin of the Silk Road owed welcome to kingpins a park asked original original. I'm Howell heart and I'm Kate Leonard. Every Friday we journey inside the ranks of Organized Crime Rings From Street gangs to MAFIOSOS OFFI OSOS to understand how a kingpin or Queen Pin Rises to the top of the underworld and why they fall as we followed the lives of infamous Thomas Crime bosses will explore how money and power changed them and how it changed the community around them. You can find episodes of kingpins and all other other park cast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream kingpins for free on spotify just open the APP and type kingpins in the search bar at par cast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing nine reach out on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter at podcast network and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is Leva Five uh-huh Star Review Wherever you're listening it really does help us today. We're continuing our deep dive into Ross Ulbricht creator of the Silk Road food last week we explored Elbrick's political views and what drove him to set up the so-called Amazon for drugs. This week will follow all of the police as they tried to identify the real dread pirate Roberts and bring down the untraceable website by January of two thousand thirteen nearly two years after its launch. The Silk Road was making money hand over Fist twenty-eight-year-old Ross Ulbricht the site's creator had banked tens of millions of dollars in untraceable bitcoin from his share in commissions fans that to paraphrase biggie smalls with more money comes more problems. The site was under constant assault by hackers every other other day the Silk Road Sprung another security league for malicious web bandits to take advantage of even with extra support staff overlooked was under a relentless dale us of threats. He was currently being blackmailed by one particularly aggressive hacker who repeatedly knocked the Silk Road off line. Eventually Ulbricht agreed to pay the hacker fifty thousand dollars a week to make him stop. It made ULBRICHT furious but his friend in sometimes mentor username variety Jones reassured him this was the cost of doing business think of it as protection money any but even worse than the outside threats Ulbricht was dealing with treason from one of his lieutenants username chronic pain who had recently recently been arrested by the DA ulbricht worried that chronic pain would strike a deal for leniency in exchange for information on the inner workings of the site shortly after the arrest Albrecht also discovered that chronic pain had walked off with a cool three hundred fifty thousand dollars caller from various users accounts. It wasn't the money that Elbrick Chafe Dad. He was a millionaire now it was the disrespect ulbricht brick reached out to another friend from the Silk Road username KNOB asking for help in organizing retaliation ulbricht believed that knob was a drug lord moving millions of dollars worth of heroin and cocaine every year in reality knob was undercover. Da Agent Carl Force so when Oberg asked him if he knew anyone who could beat up chronic pain and make him return the money he stole force was delighted it only added to the mounting pile of evidence of elbrick's drug trafficking and kingpin crimes force an another agent staged the waterboarding of chronic pain real name Curtis Green and recorded the show on video as proof for Ulbricht but before four is sent the torture tape elbrick changed his mind. He didn't just want chronic pain roughed up he wanted him did force agreed to make the arrangements hence for eighty thousand dollars and now he had Oberg done record taking a hit out on someone's life four cent chronic onic pain a list of instructions to fake his death as laid out in Nick Bilton Book American Kingpin Force told Him Dunk your head and water is if you've been drowned then pop open a can of tomato soup poor that soup out of your mouth like there was a mucus like eruption finally snap snap a picture of your lifeless body with a cell phone when he sent along the staged photo to Ulbricht he didn't reply for a few moments seemingly shaken by the disturbing image filling the silence forest volunteered that the torturers brought chronic pain back with CPR a few times to draw out the pain Hayne but eventually his heart gave out when older still didn't say anything forest as to he was all right Oberg typed. I'm a little disturbed but I'm okay. I'm new to this kind of thing is all but Albrecht was only rattled by putting an end to a man's life for so long once he got used to the idea ulbricht was emboldened by his first murder for hire. He started blaming chronic pain for his own death if he'd had more integrity ulbricht wouldn't have been forced to kill him. When ulbricht echoed this sentiment or variety Jones he agreed Jones wouldn't lose any sleep over chronic pain death business was business and the next time Albrecht felt like his empire was threatened? He easily dealt out another other descendants. A new dark web bandit username friendly chemist threatened to release the real names and addresses as of hundreds of Silk Road users hacked from the site unless Ulbricht forked over five hundred thousand dollars not to be made a fool of again ULBRICHT reached out to username red and white a big time methamphetamine dealer he supposedly sourced the drugs from his biker gang the hells angels Albrecht gave Red and white friendly chemists real name age and general vicinity and asked him how much it would cost cost for the bikers to kill him. He railed a red and white about how friendly chemist to dare to go after users anonymity a sacrosanct tenant of the Silk Road for that he had to die for one thousand six hundred fifty five bitcoins the hells angels dispatched with friendly chemist but when red and white sent the photo evidence of the assassination he had bad news for Albrecht shortly before friendly chemist died died. He tried to make a bargain he confessed that he had four other associates who also had access to the lists of users names and addresses he wanted to exchange the information for mercy the hells angels tortured out of him instead what we want to do about the others when Albrecht had learned of chronic pains betrayal a few months before it took him a full day to decide murder was the only option now oh he replied to red and white within the span of an hour how much to take care of the rest he wired in additional five hundred thousand dollars for four more or hit jobs in his log of work activity for the day over noted that he sent a payment to the hells angels for the killings it was followed by very high load took site off line and re factored main and category pages to be more efficient just another day at the office on the dark web over was finding it harder to maintain his double life. He had no permanent address. He lived in a friend's spare bedroom in San Francisco. He was constantly terrified that they would walk in on him. While he was working on the site his screen filled with pictures of drugs and weapons uh-huh so in June of two thousand thirteen twenty nine year old Albrecht decided it was time to better divide his two worlds he moved out out of his friends apartment and into a craigslist room share he paid the twelve hundred dollar rent in cash and told the houses landlord his name was Joshua Terry. He kept Joshua's backstories simple basically matching the truth. He was a day trader from Austin originally. He vowed never to bring anyone who knew him. AM is Ross Oberg to the new apartment. He needed a fortress of anonymity once he assumed the role of Joshua Terry Albrecht realized is how useful it might be to have more backup aliases in case he needed to run for his life. He ordered nine fake. ID's with nine different names James issued in nine different states and countries from a vendor on the Silk Road unfortunately for Ulbricht. The Canadian vendor was very popular on the site on the same day that Elbrick's purchase passed through customs at the San Francisco airport several other envelopes of fake. The ideas were on their way to different buyers. There were so many identical looking envelopes. It caught the attention of the customs inspector checking the Mail L. Crate. I the envelopes were an odd shape square instead of rectangle second. It was clear that all the envelopes were addressed by the same person based on the handwriting but the return addresses were for three different people Cole Harris Arnold Harris and Bird Harris all all different addresses in Vancouver Albrecht's envelope stood out from the group because of the large number of fakes inside the Customs Inspector Flag Ten for follow up on July Twenty Six two thousand thirteen twenty nine year old Ulbricht was home alone in his San Francisco. Go Room share he'd been working all morning and needed something to eat wearing only a pair of dirty khaki shorts he headed for the kitchen but when he reached reached the hallway he froze in horror at what he saw on the other side of the glass door men in suits with badges federal agents agents they made eye contact with Ulbricht and wrapped on the glass. They wanted to talk to him. One of the suit said we're from the Department of Homeland Security Kirti. We're here to talk to you about these counterfeit documents that were set to be delivered here. Normal people even normal criminals don't order nine fake driver's vers- licenses. It all just seems very odd to us. All bricks heart caught in his throat. His entire body started to shake this was it it this is the way the world ends not with a bang but a whimper but the agents quickly reassured him they weren't here to arrest him. They just needed to see some real identification and verify he wasn't a fugitive or a terrorist and truth. They didn't have enough evidence to prove he actually ordered the ID's they were here on a fact-finding mission Ulbricht complied and showed them his official Texas license satisfied fide. The agents asked him one final question hypothetically. How does someone go about purchasing nine fake? ID's with with a hint of smugness in his voice Olbrycht told them anyone hypothetically could use the tour network and go onto a site call the silk crowed and buy anything they want including guns drugs or fake. ID's unlike the FBI and Senator Chuck Schumer are these low level homeland security agents were unfamiliar with the website they simply made a note of information then thanked Ulbricht for his time and went back to their car over to his glad they didn't arrest him but frustrated that his real name was now associated with his formerly secure address us he'd have to move again unknown to him he would soon have bigger problems than a stack of fake. ID's around the same time him he was finding a new place to live task forces from the DA FBI irs the Department of Justice and the US Attorney's Office office convened in Washington DC. They had all individually investigated the Silk Road but hadn't gotten far now. Oh they planned to pool their resources to shut down the site once and for all coming up the the Department of Justice hunts down the dread pirate Roberts. VH1's true crime docu series cartel crew returns Monday October seventh while the past generation of narcos might be dead. The cartel is still alive this season the crew is crossing crossing into new territory. Don't miss the new season Monday October seventh at nine eight central on vh one. I'm thrilled to tell you about another new fascinating podcast original called mythical monsters it tells the stories stories of dragons sea serpents giants demons and other terrifying creatures these are the monsters that must be slain by any great hero in myths but these monsters aren't merely adversaries. There are a reflection of the darkest fears man once had every Monday mythical monsters tells the stories of these beasts and asks what they represent to mankind you can follow mythical Nicole monsters for free on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts or visit podcast dot com slash mythical monsters to listen now and if you hang around after the end of our show you can hear an exclusive preview of the first episode now back to the story in the summer of two thousand thirteen thirty two year old Homeland Security Agent Jared career G- hyon stood before a room full of other government agents men from the DOJ FBI DA an irs us to present everything he discovered about the Silk Road website and it's non ass- leader the dread pirate Roberts jared who was based in Chicago Chicago entered the Silk Road case two years earlier when he was summoned to O'hare airport to investigate a suspicious package. It was a square envelope elope with a typed address instead of handwritten. The first red flag on the inside flap were two words in German here within open here inside was a single pink tablet of ecstasy stamped with the outline of a squirrel jared was immediately really intrigued by the find who would go to the trouble of shipping a single dose of ecstasy halfway around the world. He paid a visit to the intended recipient at the end of the envelope for a knockin talk. Unfortunately the buyer wasn't home but his roommate answered the door still looking for answers answers Jarod told the roommate why he was there. Did he know anything about envelopes of Ecstasy. He answered yeah. It's from the Silk Silk Road. It's like Amazon Dot Com but for drugs once he heard about the website it was all agent cheery dear hyon thought about he he was terrified by the possibilities of anyone buying anything they wanted kids could buy heroin terrorists could buy guns and it was all happily really delivered to their doorsteps by the US ps now in the summer of two thousand thirteen after years of work and over three thousand five hundred seized shipments jared presented his findings on the Silk Road to a room of nearly thirty five agents Jarod told tolley assembly that through the seizures he'd been able to arrest a few low level dealers then he commandeered each vendor's account to gain a better understanding of the inner workings of the website with this knowledge he tried to befriend higher level users and moderators who were closer to the dread pirate Roberts jared tricked one of these MODs username cirrus into giving him her real name and home address. He told her he was sending sending a gift instead. He sent her a Swat team. After the arrest jared offered Syra deal in exchange for immunity eh he assumed control of her moderator account to impersonate her on the site over the course of a few days serious taught jared how to use Torah and access the Silk Road back end he took notes on her mannerisms her workflow her speech patterns and her Emoji preferences and says serious didn't know the true identity of the dread pirate Roberts but she had direct access to him as a moderator and now jared did a two he observed. EPR's staff meetings like a fly on the wall biding his time for a crack in the case waiting to strike. It hadn't income yet but he knew he was close. After forty minutes jared concluded his presentation murmurs of approval from the assembled ambled agents circle the table they were impressed with his work but the mood in the room soured when the DA gave their short presentation nation well jared had laid all of his cards on the table The DA was petulantly tight lipped the DA refused to talk about agent agent Carl Forces undercover work as knob claiming that it would jeopardize his standing force had what he needed to take down deep er and and he didn't feel like sharing the bust the whole presentation lasted less than five minutes and force hung up the conference call line. If he'd stayed aide he would have known the FBI was about to beat him to the punch. Once the room quieted the presenting agent stated simply. We have the server over a highly trafficked website like the Silk Road needed to be housed on its own dedicated server located in a hidden server farm because of the anonymity protections of tore ulbricht assumed that the IP address for the server was completely untraceable but FBI agent Chris Tar Bell had dedicated the last six months to proving that assumption wrong tar bell was part of the FBI's is cybercrime unit he trolled technical forums looking for threads discussing the coating mechanics of the Silk Road hoping one of them might reveal a weak spot in early June of two thousand thirteen someone posted about a recent server update on the site they complained aimed at it caused the Silk Roads. Ip address to leak making it visible to the rest of the Internet Tar Bells seize the opportunity in through everything he he could think of at the leaking site before anyone on deep ers staff noticed and patched the bug as described by wired journalist Joshua Baron tar bill through data at silkroad he entered user names with bad passwords and pasted data into input fields all the while using regular old freeware to analyze network traffic and collect the IP's communicating with his machine then he tested those eventually he struck Gold Ip address one nine three one zero seven eight six four nine when when he pasted it into a browser the Silk Road captured page appeared Carbel then trace the address to a server farm in Iceland after a few view weeks in a little red tape the Icelandic government handed over a clone of the server housing the Silk Road however when tar bell fired it up he realized the server was encrypted completely useless without the password he salt for a full day over the blow oh he thought he'd crack the case wide open but it was just another dead end he lamented aseren Turner the US Attorney's Office where where did they go from here but Saron was confused. The Password didn't work tar bell nearly jumped through the phone to strangle the state attorney any he never said they had the password Saron shuffled some papers on the other end of the line looking for his notes then said it's tried to crack this. NSA with no spaces worked tar bell was in he had access to the entire silkroad back end private messages the forums and all bitcoin transactions he compiled fourteen hundred pages of deep ers chat logs dogs and read every word but even with this windfall of information tar bell and the FBI still couldn't figure out who the DP are was based on the server activity they believed he lived in San Francisco and that he worked machine nicknamed frosty but what could they do with that knowledge stakeout every coder filled coffee shop in the city. It was yet another dead end. Luckily there was an agent agent in the task force with another idea. Irs Agent Gary Alford Gerry Alford knew that he wielded as much power with his this calculator as other agents did with their nine millimeter after all who brought down Al Capone after the Joint Task Force Meeting Alford saw clearly how each agency was attacking the Silk Road Problem Carl Force in the DA was going after DP are himself. I'm trying to reach him directly through his undercover Work Homeland Security Agent Jared dirtbag Haiyan was going after the drug shipments trying to make headway through the buyers and sellers while FBI agent Chris Tar Bell took aim at the site itself Alford was brought in as a money he guy now that they had the records of all the BITCOIN transactions the IRS should be able to whip out their calculators and go to work but the bitcoins didn't don't leave a real paper trail they just provided lists and lists more anonymous user names with all of these different traditional angles so far proving moving useless Alford started thinking outside the box he was inspired by the case of David Berkowitz also known as the son of Sam. Am Throughout nineteen seventy six and nineteen seventy seven Berkowitz went on shooting sprees and New York City injuring seven people and killing six knicks for months he eluded capture even though he was the subject of the largest NYPD manhunt to date in the end Berkowitz was is identified as the son of Sam because of one thirty five dollar parking ticket police track down every car that was cited in the surrounding area. one of the murders Berkowitz's car had been ticketed even though his home address was listed in Yonkers when they searched his sedan police found a rifle rounds of ammunition maps of the crime scene and taunting letter addressed to the police Alford wanted to apply this this same strategy to the dread pirate Roberts he started looking for his own version of a parking ticket some kind of digital footprint that reveal LDPR's true identity the Silk Road initially hit the mainstream through journalist Adrian Chins Gawker article published in June of two thousand eleven that was when the site really took off beyond regular users of the dark web but what about before are then had anyone else written about the site Alford turned to good old google to find out he searched for the websites tour address and set the parameters editors who had only returned post loaded before the Gawker article was published on January twenty seventh two thousand eleven a user named Aalto made posted on a forum about Scylla Cyber Mushrooms called the shrew Marie Alto and suggested that the form readers check out a new site called old. The Silk Road encouraged Alford ran another google search this time including the name L. Toyed along with the Silk Road. You are L. will he found more posed by L. Toyed on other drug related forums also posted in late January two thousand eleven on one thread thread about paying for heroin anonymously with bitcoin AL toyed commented. You guys have a ton of great ideas. Has Anyone Seen Silk Road yet. It's kind of like an anonymous. Amazon DOT COM Alford was convinced L. Toyed and dread pirate Roberts were one and the same he subpoenaed the forum sites for Al Toyed registered name and user credentials but the email us to register Mr the account frosty at frosty dot com was fake. All he got was a bounceback however Alford found the L. toyed username and frosty frosty email account on more than just drug forums. The name was also used on stack overflow a forum for coding questions L. Toyed asked how do I connect to a tor hidden service using curl in PHP this L. Toyed was originally registered with a different email email address then changed to the frosty account a minute later the initial address rose Oberg to edgy mail dot com when Alfred ran a search on Ross Ulbricht in the federal database he got a hit Ulbricht had never been arrested but he'd been interviewed viewed by the Department of Homeland Security about a stack of fake. ID's in the report the D. H. S. agent noted over to volunteer Alan tear that hypothetically anyone could go onto a website named Silk Road on tour and purchase any drugs or ID's. It couldn't be a coincidence Ross. ULBRICHT was the dread pirate Roberts coming up up the authorities close in on Ross Albrecht now back to the story by late September of two thousand thirteen twenty nine year old Ross Albrecht felt like the master of his fate with over a million registered users business snus on the Silk Road was going well and Ulbricht had fully stepped into his role as boss. He didn't want to just lead his employees is he wanted to inspire them. They were on a mission to change the world after all when one of his worker bees was burned out after a long day of dealing with user gripes over told them a story over Chad to offer some perspective once a man came across a group of Workers Cutting Stone John Blocks when he asked what they were doing. One of the exhausted laborers said what does it look like. We're making blocks for the building but the man noticed noticed another worker smiling as he toiled away he cut his blocks at twice the speed of the rest of the group when the man asked what he was doing he said I'm building a cathedral to the glory of God Albrecht summarized for his employees. If someone asked you what you're doing would you say dealing dealing with people's problems or working to free humanity not only did he fully believe in his mission over Ted complete faith in his security protocols protocols even when a user warned him that the Silk Road servers were vulnerable. He just brushed them off. Whore was anonymous? Bitcoin coin was untraceable. He was untouchable. He told the potential new hire realistically the only way for them to prove anything would be for them to watch you log in and do your work. Unfortunately that was exactly the path. The government task force took when I arrest agent Gary Alford. DHS Agent Jared dirtbag hyon an FBI agent Chris Tar Bell finally me put all their separate pieces together. The signs clearly indicated that Ross Ulbricht was the dread pirate Roberts they'd found on the name frosty on the Silk Road servers they'd connected frosty the Ross's name on stack overflow asking a question about a piece of code they'd it also found in the silk roads back end and they knew that frosty frequently logged in at a coffee shop around the corner from the address where Homeland Security and interviewed Ross Brecht about his shipment of fake. ID's but nothing was a smoking gun. The Justice Department wouldn't approve an arrest arrest or a wiretap on elbrick's computer. They had to find more so they watched him from a distance trying to prove the connection jared jared was still posing as one of old bricks moderators username cirrus through this access jared could see whenever DP are logged onto into the Silk Road and at the same time in the real world the surveillance team watched Ross Ulbricht sit down at his laptop and work their interactivity was identical every time DP are was online ulbricht was at his computer when Aubert signed off so did d APR by the end of September of two thousand thirteen the DOJ was satisfied that Olbrycht was a person of interest and the Silkroad case the FBI's started planning their apprehension strategy. Da Agent Carl Force was not included did locked on the outside looking in after the DA's behavior in the Joint Task Force meeting. Perhaps out of jealousy. He tried to warn warn Albrecht that it was time to pay attention to the signs around him and run as Knob he typed you were like one of my family but would I have to tell you that I have had several people killed who were sent to jail. It is very easy and cheap but Albrecht ignored nor the guidance he had nothing to worry about Knob may understand the heroin trade but he didn't understand Cybersecurity mm-hmm on October first two thousand thirteen the FBI prepared to arrest Ross Ulbricht in his apartment. It was a controlled environment ornament perfect for an ambush they plan to monitor elbrick's Wifi traffic to make sure that he was logged into the Silk Road at the time of the bust I without that concrete connection all they had was circumstantial evidence and the dread pirate Roberts would go free once confirmed he was working on the site the FBI would storm the house and collect the laptop for evidence but agent Chris Tar Bell saw a huge flaw in this plan a few years earlier he'd apprehended a well known Hacker Jeremy Hammond who was part of a larger group of hacktivists divest called lull sick they taken the same approach in that arrest sending in a Swat team and the moment Hammond heard the battering ram crashed through the door. He calmly shut his laptop. Instantly locking it encrypting the contents and effectively destroying all evidence evidence as Nick Bilton described in his book on Ross Albrecht. It was the equivalent of doing a massive drug bust and the suspect flushing the drugs down the toilet toilet before the cops made it into the bathroom tar bell knew from the chat logs on the Silk Road Server that variety Jones taught Ulbricht how to install a kill switch on his laptop a secret keystroke that would instantly wipe the computer's hard drive it would be losec all over again but even though Tar Bell and the DC Cybersecurity Task Force had done the majority of the legwork on the case so far they were in San Francisco now that meant it was a local field offices jurisdiction and they wanted arrayed around two thirty pm on October I the FBI and Swat teams gathered to talk through their mission in a conference room at the San Francisco field office agents Tar Bell Endure Yoga Hyon Sat in an unmarked van outside Russell Bricks apartment keeping an eye on their target but at two forty two PM jared saw DP are log off on the Silk Road back in the entire mission was compromised then a few moments slater olbrycht exited his apartment building his laptop bag slung over his shoulder he stepped into a coffee shop next door but stepped out just as quickly it was too crowded and then there was nowhere to sit jared anti-rebel watched him continue down the block and into a public library burry. The agents debated what to do for a few moments but ultimately decided to follow him. They let the SWAT team. No change of plans plans tar bell told the few agents in the area to take positions in the library Oberg sat down at a large table in a back corner of the library. He opened his laptop and fired it up. A young woman sat down across from him. She flashed him a smile as she opened in her book jared sat on a bench in front of the library his own laptop in front of him waiting to see if DP are would appear on the Silk Road You'd tar bell paced on the sidewalk swearing under his breath and constantly checking his blackberry for updates on the SWAT team Vin Gerard so it DP are was back online jared knew that to make an airtight case against Ross Ulbricht correct they needed evidence that he was more than just a user on the Silk Road he had admin privileges jared needed to make him log into the back back end of the site before the bust could go off as serious. He asked over Chad if d. Pr Checkup flagged complaint second and stretch two minutes before Albrecht typed back sure let me log him it was go time tar bell furiously typed instructions nations on his blackberry to the rest of the team. Get the open laptop. I then worry about Albrecht he stressed. Let the guy run if you have have to but don't let that computer close over accent working at the table in the library hunched over his screen. He didn't notice a homeless looking couples sidled up behind him then the scruffy woman screamed at her made. If you the shrill yell cut through the silence of the library drawing a few glances but Albrecht remained oblivious still typing away then the man she was with cocked back his right arm readying readying to punch the howling woman in the face the other patrons in the library gasped and called out trying to stop him. Even Albrecht was now caught up in the scene. He turned around in his chair away from his computer while he was distracted the young young woman seated across from him casually grabbed OPEC's laptop and slid it away he tried to scramble across the table after her but the fighting homeless couple grabbed his arms and twisted them behind his back. FBI FBI they slammed him onto the table and snapped handcuffs on his wrists. One agent walked over downstairs while another walked away with his laptop. The latter held his prize is like it was made of glass dutifully touching the track pad every few seconds making sure the machine wouldn't idle and lock jared and the laptop agent climbed climbed into an FBI van they connected the computer to a power source and immediately started copying the contents. It was a gold mind. The laptop was nicknamed frosty. It was logged into the main silkroad website the admin back into the website and a third dashboard called old mastermind. They had everything they needed to fully complete. The bust federal agents in Iceland rated the server farm that house how's the Silk Road website seized control and confiscated twenty six thousand bitcoins now when users logged on they found a huge warning message this hidden site has been seized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation Tar Bell took custody of Ulbricht and walked him to another waiting. Fbi Van over demanded to know what he was being charged with Tar Bell showed him. I'm a federal warrant authorizing the arrest of Ross Ulbricht Aka Dread Pirate Roberts Aka D Pr Aka Silk Road at first all he said was. I want a lawyer then a few blocks later he half jokingly offered Tar Bell Bribe Live if he gave him twenty million dollars would he let him go tar bell countered even if I could what about the driver have take care of him to write. How much money do you have Olbrycht didn't answer perhaps realizing that revealing his wealth only implicated himself so further but the FBI discovered his trove of one hundred forty four thousand bitcoins soon enough worth between twenty one point six six million and twenty eight point eight million dollars and that was an all they found as many protocols and encryption measures as he'd taken in the end the FBI didn't even need a password crackers laptop? It was the same problem that had plagued Ulbricht from the inception exception of the Silk Road as smart as he was as much as he taught himself. He wasn't an expert in cybersecurity agents bounded bounded folder on his hard drive called scripts inside the coding protocols for all the encryption protections he'd used Oberg had had gone to the trouble of Pudding fifteen locks and chains on the door then Ben Careless enough to leave the keys sitting under the Matt two weeks after his arrest Albrecht was extradited to New York to stand before a federal judge he was charged with narcotics trafficking computer computer hacking money laundering trafficking in fake documents and running a continual criminal enterprise the last charge known on as a kingpin statute was potentially the most severe if convicted Olbrycht could be sentenced to a minimum of twenty years in jail jail and a maximum of life imprisonment however if the US attorney could prove that Albrecht murdered someone as part of his business us he could receive the death penalty in the recovered chat logs there was evidence of six hired hits chronic pain gene friendly chemist and the four other associates murdered by Red and white and the hells angels however while Ulbricht believed he'd ordered chronic make Payne's death. The state knew that the assassination was just for show. They couldn't charge him for murder if the victim was still alive even more complicated Olbrycht had ordered chronic pains death as retaliation for stealing three hundred fifty thousand dollars in Bitcoin from users accounts but but it turned out chronic pain never touched that money a federal agent Sean Bridges who was present during chronic pains arrest was responsible for the theft while everyone else was bagging up evidence bridges quietly move the digital currency into his own account if they charged Ulbricht for anything related to chronic pain it opened the door for his defense attorney to lambast the agents involved in the case and as far as the the other five hits that Ulbricht sent to red and white and the hells angels investigators also came up empty is seeing that red and white had scammed Albrecht out of six hundred and fifty thousand dollars without actually bumping anyone off in the end. It was a lucky break sparing OPEC's life still he faced a considerable amount of jail time if convicted when his trial arrived in late January of two thousand fifteen eighteen Ross overex- defense attorney relied on the strategy that he'd set up years prior he was not the real dread pirate Roberts it it was just a title yes he'd invented the Silk Road but he'd given it away to someone else when it became too dangerous and unwieldy to run the buyer framed Albrecht when he realized the feds were moving in but for thirteen days the US attorney presented the piles of evidence pulled from auberges computer thousands of pages of chat logs between him and his lieutenants about site maintenance and user issues including the conversation with Naba about murdering chronic pain millions of dollars and Bitcoin his own diaries documenting the daily struggle of being a digital little kingpin on February fourth two thousand fifteen thirty year old Ross Albrecht was convicted on seven felony counts. The jury deliberated for less than four hours at sentencing a couple of months later Albrecht asks for leniency. His greatest fear was spending the the rest of his life in prison. He made a mistake in creating the Silk Road any truly regretted it but judge Katherine Forrest didn't offer any numeracy she said you are no better a person than any other drug dealer you were captain of the ship as the dread pirate Roberts and you you made your own laws and you enforce them in the manner that you saw fit the Silk Road was your opus you wanted it to be your legacy and it is she sentenced him to two terms of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole plus forty years in the gallery ellery Ross Ulbricht mother wept in the wake of the shutdown of the Silk Road. Many online activists have come to Rossel bricks defense they attest that there are in fact several dread pirate Roberts and that Albrecht was unfairly targeted targeted and punished indeed after the shutdown of the Silk Road subsequent iterations of the site have appeared on the dark web they have also shuttered by law enforcement in addition. Da Agent Carl Force was later indicted for crimes he committed during his undercover work as Knob Bob Force had run into trouble earlier in his DA career blurring the line between his Co.. Gang banging and his real life becoming becoming addicted to the very drugs he was trying to corral in history repeated itself in the Silk Road ks force found himself tempted by the millions CNN's of digital dollars in front of him posing as several different users force had offered to be a government informant for Albrecht. He sent Tim several inside tips for fifty thousand dollars a pop when force was tight lipped with the rest of the investigation. He wasn't concerned about sharing during the glory he was worried he would be exposed. He was later sentenced to six years for extortion. Many of all big supporters point into this impropriety is proof that the investigation was corrupt but the overwhelming amount of evidence drawn from Albrecht's laptop is unequivocal co proof that he an DP are are one and the same now thirty five Ross Ulbricht is currently serving his double life sentences at are maximum security facility in Tucson Arizona. He continues to maintain his innocence on our new website free Ross Dot Org Irga and filed an appeal for a reduced sentence as recently as August of two thousand nineteen. The appeal was denied. Uh thanks again for listening to Kingston's. We'll be back next week with a new episode for more information on Russell bricked amongst the many sources we used used we found Nick Bolton's book American Kingpin and Joshua Behrman reporting extremely helpful to our research. You can find more episodes of kingpins kingpins and all other podcast originals for free on spotify not only to spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like kingpins for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker earlier to stream kingpins on spotify just open the APP and type kingpins in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast. I end twitter at podcast network will see you next time. Kingpins was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast our cast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cutler with sound design by Dick Schroeder production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Moller additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie Beckley this episode kingpin's was written by Abigail Cannon and stars Kate Leonard and Howell target as promised. Here's an exclusive preview of the first episode assode of mythical monsters. It's about the cracking a larger than life C. Monster in norse folklore that wreaks havoc and chaos on passing ships and sailors to hear the full first episode follow mythical monsters for free on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts or visit park podcast dot com slash mythical monsters to listen now please note the story you're about to hear are is not a direct account of the saga of IRV are odd or ero odd. The first surviving written account of the Kraken we've combined several several accounts of the kraken over history to bring it to the center of this dramatic retailing and to truly emphasize the havoc and chaos such let your great monster can wreak when Arrow odd I met his son and the boy immediately called him a coward and small all of odds men were puny. He could not possibly imagine imagine how this could be. His father odd had to admit that his son Vig near only ten years old was already radio behemoth and would be a terrible force on the battlefield still odd had little patience for disrespect less so for a child eld he started to list his accomplishments. He was odd who went to per mia who fooled the laps who defeated heated giants whose name was feared from Norway to Greece who had matched swords with Augmon Tussock who murdered that devil level spawns demon mother who would pursue him to the end of the nine worlds. If only he knew where that fiend was at the mention of Osmond odd son seemed to shrink three sizes and the force with which he trembled shook the the very sand beneath their feet he hung his head and said almost inaudibly. I would not chase that beast based you know where he is. Then odd asked you would be walking into the jaws of death vig league nears voice carried no sense of threat only concern I would pursue him to hell itself Vig near acquiesced and made his way to the boat. I will show you the way father he said they sailed across the water with a determined purpose and the force of odds lucky winds propelling their sales but then the winds died and the clouds cleared there before them was a great island Lind Vig near shook his head. I do not like the look of it father but the men needed a rest just so odd directed one of the ships to dock as soon as day on boarded the island sunk taking the men with it Vig near turn to assure his father that he should have listened but there was no time for us he did ed all large scaled limb erupted with a vengeance from the ocean. Welcome to mythical ethical monsters apar- cast original. I'm Vanessa Richardson every week we dive into history's most legendary monsters in in telling their stories we hope to shed light on some truths hidden behind the creations of these beasts where they come from what they symbolize symbolize and how they expose humanity's greatest fears you can find episodes of mythical monsters and all other podcast originals for for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream mythical monsters for free on spotify just open the APP and type mythical monsters turn in the search bar at par cast. Were grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help is to leave a five star review view wherever you're listening. It really does help us. Mythical monsters is about the creatures who have haunted us since the dawn of storytelling beasts I with fantastic characteristics crafted in the ancient wonders of the imagination were these monsters something these storytellers experienced first hand or symbolic of the things that threatened their ancient way of life on this show we want not only to capture the beauty of these monsters monsters but also to uncover what they reveal about ourselves. Our demons are windows to our existential fears and mythical ethical monsters looks to expose these and examine how they vary through different times and cultures and how in many ways they stay stay the same today we're discussing the Kraken also commonly referred to as the kraken one of the most feared and famed see monsters in all of Western culture a creature that for hundreds of years has seemed to defy definition as it waits in the deep for for unsuspecting sailors. The crackle has an interesting legacy biggest in our history. It was poorly defined legend of a great sea beast that haunted the waters of Scandinavia and even though the tales about its shape differed one thing was consistent through all accounts the Kraken was incredibly large and terrifying even now rumors of its existence confound scientists and conspiracy theorists alike and leave us with a fundamental and disturbing curbing question were accounts of the crack in the fantastical musings of inspired seafarers or are the stories based on real accounts of a yet yet undiscovered. CB St- to uncover these secrets of the deep we must go back to the first mentions of the great monster monster of the see the ancient Nord's spoke of many beasts that haunted the deep there was heather back the Great Wail. Your men Ghand the vicious sea serpent the eternal tour so the giant tusked beast but there was one that stood out from the rest the largest monster in the nine worlds who caused the fiercest warriors warriors and the tallest giants to tremble at it's very mention the monster of which men rarely spoke not because it was never scene but because the few who had cast is upon it never returned it had many names half Gufah crabbing C. missed see wreak but one name survived the test of history one name that would haunt seafarers referrers for hundreds of years kraken. It was a vague monster armored as a crab crab tentacles like an octopus fierce as a shark every account of the thing changed its form it was just as the ocean it inhabited vast and unknown and terrifying it was everything they feared with sudden and violent excellent anger like the coming of a storm so was the crack in a monster of parts the piecing together of this discomfort with the deep or was there really a vicious creature that terrorized ancient sailors to answer these questions we must visit the Vikings and explore the I story to include the legend of the crack in this was the epic saga of odd or Ero odd and Icelandic tale written in the thirteenth century covering the three hundred year life of odd a marauding Viking odds adventures lead him. I'm too many distant lands but his encounter with the kraken sparked a myth that spanned centuries Arrow odd listened to the speech red bearded man with a distance of one grown long accustomed to being a kermit. The man himself spoke in an almost absent minded manner. There is glory for you yet odd. All you must do is leave your life of forage to the scavengers of the forest floor odd relaxed his head against the tree. It's only one thing that will bring go forth from these words and I know you know friend. You have the look of knowledge about you. The man's eyes shifted but his posture stayed confident. They both knew that odd spoke of Augmon's Tusek atheists killer the quest. Do you look for is an ill fated one. No quest is ill fated that has yet to even begin odds challenge was was met with laughter and irked him Red Beard responded in between his tittering breath. If only you knew child the this journey began long ago with the birth of Augmon himself binding you both in shared misery Zuri odds anger mounted at being called a child after all he was nearly one hundred fifty years old he would have struck struck redbeard down where he stood if he had not only moments before sworn blood brotherhood with this stranger. If you are so privy to the threads of my destiny then enlighten me brother how are the pads of mine and the demon so crossed your paths may be crossed Arrow odd but his world is the world of beasts and if you chase him you will only be following following the monsters left in his wake and so red beard who may or may not have been Odin himself began tale of Augmon toxic atheist offs killer long ago when you are D- sailed. AOL Diploma on your famous outing you made a great enemy of Kinghorn who held stewardship over that land such were his losses awesome that he concocted a sinister plan of revenge he called upon the fearsome ogress grim held and laid with her so that that he might bear a son called augment ugly and demonic and cruel was the child red beard who may a or may not have been odin the all father told odd all of the cruel details of augment who seems to have been bred specifically to rival arrival odd for every great and heroic deed that odd accomplished Augmon seemed to have an act equal to it in its cruelty. This was a theme in the ancient Nordic Sagas. The importance of a rivalry odds accomplishments could only be measured by how he fared against his is opposite but as red beard told his tail he made one thing very clear Augmon's world was a world of beasts East's and monsters worth threat to all vikings he could command creatures beyond comprehension and if odd so pursued his rival he would surely meet his end even grim held Augmon's mother had become a ferocious demon that wanted nothing being more than to tear odd and his men apart she searched for Aud in the forests of England to the north but like all heroic roic Vikings of the age odd would not shy away from such a challenge while he could see the dangers pursuing such monsters it was in his is nature to fight as his wife told him long ago to

Ross Ulbricht Silk Roads Joshua Terry Albrecht Roberts jared FBI jared Carl Force Chris Tar Bell spotify Ross Oberg ID San Francisco slater olbrycht ellery Ross Ulbricht heroin ULBRICHT Ulbricht Silk Silk Road Elbrick facebook
Last 30 years have seen major progress in fight against corruption: senior UN official

UN News

07:18 min | 1 year ago

Last 30 years have seen major progress in fight against corruption: senior UN official

"This is Connor Lennon from. UN news the UN is committed to fighting corruption a phenomenon that affects all countries in one way or another through the work of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime. The United Nations Convention Against Corruption is the only legally binding universal anti corruption instrument and a unique tool tool for developing a comprehensive response to what is a global problem. The vast majority of United Nations member states are parties to the convention ahead of a conference in Abu Dhabi to discuss issues relating to the convention. Joan Brenda Lino Director of the Division of Treaty Affairs for the UN Office on Drugs and Crime Spoke Selena Schneier from Your News and told her that he's encouraged by the way that thinking about corruption has evolved. I think we have to have a long term view of fighting corruption. And if you take that long term view you actually find that we've come quite a ways for example in the last thirty years thirty years ago. Oh when I was dealing with corruption issues around the world in my job I often we find people that would say well. Corruption is good in some forms because it helps move for example business forward or or this is our culture. This is the way we do things you can come in and change it from outside. There were no at at that time. Bribes were tax deductible. At that time there were no instruments. International instruments related to corruption. People often didn't WanNA talk about it. Member states during in During meetings now thirty years later it's a completely different environment. We bribes or not now tax deductible in fact people have committed around the world to to ensure they're not We have no one would dare say no member state. No more dare say that corruption is good in any form and anytime everybody recognizes the need need to deal with it and the need to deal with it together as a group around the world And and we've made some strides in and how to deal with corruption so we found different types of methods in ways that we think can be useful both preventive and also allow enforcement area and international cooperation and asset recovery recovery of dealing with corruption. We've actually made quite great strides and I think some sometimes you hear a lot about corruption but part of that of hearing so much about it is that eh because it's becoming more public people talking about it more so it seems like there's more out there but it's probably just because I think it's being exposed more And I thank the convention the UN conventions corruption is quite played quite a role in this development and in getting people to really Focus on corruption and collectively say that we have to deal with this issue globally. Can you save your words about this. Initiative which concerns the countries participating in the Silk Road wrote project around the world. There are lots of anti corruption. Initiatives groups of member states individual member states are pursuing and of course China. Ah has been a country that has been very active around the world with their so quote initiative and I think in the context of the Silk Road Initiative they're looking for for an anti-corruption aspect to it. And I for us you know it fits in with what we're doing. Generally early with countries to help them on a regional basis on a on a country to country basis on a global basis to to. How do we bring them together to to increase the flow of information and in the international cooperation needed to deal with corruption which is often Particularly with money moves from one country and other I it's transnational is national crime international issue that needs to be you need multiple countries addressing it so China has been very active. Ah also seeking to use this four and other For where people come together to talk about corruption and improve their their methods. You you know to to ensure that that that we that they also Get the benefits of these efforts in there so initiative and so they have you know for example. They've asked us to to to to help. Work with with countries that are involved in the Silk Roads. The so-called Work and try to bring them together at the network better to shoot devout to be able to to work together internationally And share information better so so we as we would with any countries in any initiatives that can help better the cooperation corruption generally. We're more than happy to help any good examples. Examples of successfully fighting corruption. Well there are always examples of people making progress in that regard and and I. I don't want to talk about specific countries but let's say for example. I'll give you an example. We have a review mechanism organism the UN Convention Against Corruption has as as a process where member states peer review each other. And they see how they're doing how they're anti-corruption regimes James how they can be made better And it looks very comprehensively things such as are they regulating properly. Do they have the codes of conduct do they. Do they have the right. Auditing thanks skills. Do they have the right law enforcement abilities and capabilities do they. Have you know laws and legislation in place The ability to deal uh-huh with asset recovery going after assets seizing the confiscating managing returning. And what's interesting. What we see is under these reviews so many countries are interested in eager to make changes that improve their ability to deal with corruption and therefore reduce corruption? And we're seeing it happen. I mean we have for example. Ninety percent of all countries that have participated in the reviews close to ninety percent have have made legislative changes. Does that are that are better their ability to deal with corruption. We have a third of them have said that they've made their there have been changed. And we've seen that improve international cooperation the flow of information and things of that nature. I think you know probably about two thirds of them. have made strides in preventing an in certain areas of preventing corruption that have led to Tiki corruption. I think in for example the Nigeria survey that I talked about before which was actually being released today in Nigeria You know we see. For example. There have been efforts made with the police. That have you know. Cut Cut The incidences of corruption the police down by by almost Twenty percent but but again still at a high level and still a lot to do but we were see that there are efforts being made that are are making making Headway so so yes. I think we are making progress in a number of countries. I think I I think there's a lot to do and of course because it's such a critical issue and because it's connected to so much of what we're doing so much of our goals international including including the sustainable development goals continue to be high on the agenda I think increasingly higher on the agenda of the international community.

United Nations Convention Agai UN Convention Against Corrupti UN Silk Roads China Abu Dhabi Connor Lennon Silk Road Initiative Joan Brenda Lino Nigeria Selena Schneier Director Division of Treaty Affairs James thirty years Ninety percent Twenty percent ninety percent
IRGC domains taken down. A look at 2021s threatscape. Russia says its didnt do anything (others see Bears.) Forfeiture of Silk Roads hitherto unaccounted for billion-plus dollars.

The CyberWire

25:00 min | 6 months ago

IRGC domains taken down. A look at 2021s threatscape. Russia says its didnt do anything (others see Bears.) Forfeiture of Silk Roads hitherto unaccounted for billion-plus dollars.

"Funding for this cyber wire. Podcast is made possible in part by last pass last passes an award-winning security solution. That helps millions of individuals. In over seventy thousand organizations navigate their online lives easily and securely businesses can maximize productivity while still maintaining effortless. Strong security with last pass last pass can minimize risk and give your it team a breakthrough integrated single sign on password management and multi factor authentication solution to the. Us justice department takes down twenty-seven domains being used by iran's islamic revolutionary guard corps booz allen offers. Its take on twenty twenty one threat scape. Russia declares itself innocent of bad behavior in cyberspace but many remained skeptical. Johanna so rick from sands looks at supply. Chain risks and managed service providers are rick howard. Speaks with. Wired's andy greenberg. About the recent syndrome indictments silk roads. Mission billion dollars appear to have been found and the us government is working on a forfeiture action from the cyber wire studios data tribe. I'm dave vitner with your cyber wire summary for friday november six twenty twenty the us department of justice. This week announced that it had taken down twenty-seven domains iran's islamic revolutionary guard corps had used to distribute propaganda and disinformation many of the domains represented themselves as belonging to legitimate news outlets. But all were determined to be run by the i. r. a. and to be illegally seeking to exert a covert influence on public opinion in the us and elsewhere the warrant violations of the international emergency and economic powers act and the iranian transactions and sanctions regulations. The justice department's announcement also notes that the i. R. provision of material support to his blah hamas and the taliban earned it a place on the treasury department's list of specially designated nationals that to exposes the group to us legal action. John c murs assistant attorney general for national security explained. The rationale for the take down as follows quote as long as iran's leaders are trying to destabilize the world through the state sponsorship of terrorism and the taking of hostages we will continue to enforce us sanctions and take other legal steps to counter them booze allen. Hamilton has published its expectations for the cyber threat landscape in the coming year. They arranged their predictions on a novel. Listrik armature the efforts of a fictional. ceo dakota alexander of a fictional fortune. Five hundred company to deal with a major cyber incident. The report opens much the way the cyberspace alarium commission introduced. Its report with a fictional account of a washington hellscape created by a massive attack on the internet of things. The resemblance is not accidental. Both intros and are by peter singer. Political scientists turned novelist. Booz allen sees eight main trends in cyber threats. We might group them into three categories. These success inspired the pandemic driven and the technologically enabled the success inspired trend will be marked by increased attention to an experimentation with various extortion and ransomware criminal business models. There are three pandemic driven trends. Booz-allen sees shaping the threat. I both criminals and nation states will devote more attention to attacking the delivery and shipping. The increased importance of these businesses makes them high value targets. Second covid nineteen tracing apps and they're supporting ecosystem present. A new attack surface for criminals spies and even low-life trolls third healthcare's shift to a remote delivery. Model is likely to be an enduring. One and criminals can be expected to go after telehealth systems and remote healthcare monitoring devices will become more attractive targets and finally technological advance in cloud migration artificial intelligence and five g networks will also shape the way threat actors develop and service their targets. The first trend is the likelihood that cloud based development environments will become a vector for supply chain attacks second as artificial intelligence becomes more pervasive across industries machine. Learning systems and methods will become high payoff targets third five g. Networks will complicate the attack surface. Industrial control systems present and give attackers afresh over defenders. Finally the general public availability of five g will enable attackers to find and exploit vulnerabilities in their victims mobile devices. Each threat trend is accompanied by a set of recommendations for managing the risk. The trend presents. The report closes with three general recommendations. Don't become distracted. Be proactive to be resilient and have an incident response retainer in place tass is authorized to declare that quote russia keeps facing claims of its destructive behavior in cyberspace which are groundless and quote and they have that straight from president vladimir putin. He's particularly miffed. At reports of attempts to meddle with foreign elections. The rhetorical technique employed here is unlikely. Insistence quote there are continuing claims against us on our alleged hyperactivity information space meddling and elections and so on which are absolutely unfounded. Mr putin said and he repeated his calls for more cooperation with the us on approving a comprehensive program for practical measures for resetting relations with russia in using it technologies. he also called for a full scale. Bilateral regular interdepartmental dialogue on key issues of maintaining international security at a high level. Russia has indeed been quieter during recent elections in various countries than it was a few years ago. Quieter doesn't mean totally silent. Consider reuters recent fancy bear sighting and it's account of gru activities against some us democratic party email accounts and in any case. The bears lower-profile is at least as likely attributable to their adversaries. Deterrence by denial as it is to any putative restaurants self restraint some of the targets. Reuters says include the democrat center for american progress as well as the indiana and california dietrich parties. There's no particular evidence of notable success in these campaigns but then not all piling gets the honey the silkroad online contraband criminal market was taken down seven years ago. Its proprietor ross. Ulbricht now serving time in a us federal prison but the silk road legal story has continued this week. The us justice department filed a judicial forfeiture action seeking control over more than a billion dollars in bitcoin. Squirrelled away. in a crypto wallet with silkroad someone a hacker known only as individual x succeeded in exfiltrated. A lot of old coin from silk road wallets and as the price of bitcoin rose so did individual xs account. The internal revenue service noticed treasury took the bitcoin and now justices filing for forfeiture to bring some closure to the affair so it appears as wired observes that justice may finally have an answer to its billion dollar question. Where all the money go if anyone needs a refresher on silk road and celebrity impresarios the online site free. Ross ulbricht describes mr ulbricht as an entrepreneur passionate about free markets and privacy which is one way of looking at. It is hacker name. We recall was the dread pirate roberts an image to the princess bride the us. Justice department's view of mr elbrick's career may be viewed at justice dot gov and it's decidedly less rosy than the free marketing privacy hawk. Free ross describes silk road traffic a lot of drugs and made a great deal of money from it and finally our long period of uncertainty over leadership over succession and over the orderly transfer of authority seems finally to have reached a satisfying day. Numa major league baseball has approved. John angelo says the successor to his father. Peter as control person of the baltimore orioles. That is the executive responsible for the club as a whole so take heart baltimore. Talk birdie to me. It's november so let the hot stove league because and now a word from our sponsor threat connect designed by analysts but built for the entire team threat connects intelligence driven security operations platform. Is the only solution available today with intelligence automation analytics and workflows in a single platform every day organizations worldwide use threat connect as the center of their security operations to detect respond. Remediate and automate. With all of your knowledge in one place enhanced by intelligence enriched with analytics driven by workflows. You'll dramatically improve. The effectiveness of every member of the team. Wanna learn more check out their newest e books sore platforms everything. You need to know about security orchestration automation and response. The book talks about intelligence driven orchestration decreasing. Time to response and remediation with sore and ends with a checklist for a complete solution downloaded at threat. Connect dot com slash cyber warfare. That's threat connect dot com slash cyber wire and we thank threat connect for sponsoring show following the recent us indictments of several russian nationals associated with the sand worm group our own chief analyst. Rick howard reach out to wired writer and author of the book sand worm. Andy greenberg for his. Take on these developments. Any greenberg is a senior writer for wired responsible for security privacy and information freedom and author of the most excellent book sand worm a new era of cyber war in the hunt for the kremlin's most dangerous akers welcome to the show. Andy thank you glad to be here but we asked you to join us today because just this past monday october. Twenty twenty united states department of justice unsealed charges including computer fraud and conspiracy against six of the hackers who allegedly are part of the hacker crew behind the cyber operations. You so clearly articulated in your book and we thought you might have some insight about what all this means so. Thank you for doing kind of giving us a guidebook for how to understand all this stuff. Yeah reading this indictment to me. It's like very gratifying. In a way it's kind of closure on years of tracking this group that you know it. It's at times if i like. I was in a pretty small club of security researchers who even believed that. This was one group that was carrying out all of these attacks and now seeing six names on six faces being held accountable for this. It's like a nice coda to destroy all right. So let's talk about can you. Maybe not everybody has read your book yet. In by the way. I highly recommend that they do. But can you give us a thumbnail. Sketch of what the buck was about. And then we can talk about what the indictments me. Sandra is a group of russian hackers. That since late twenty fifteen or so have carried out what i think is you know you could say the first full blown cyber war. Starting in ukraine they attacked pretty much every part of ukrainian society with these data destructive tax that hits media and the private sector and government agencies and then ultimately the electric utilities causing the first ever blackouts triggered by cyberattacks sandra ukraine's power grid not once but twice in late twenty thirteen and then again lead twenty sixteen and then of finally this ukrainian cyber wars. San warm was waging essentially in the middle of two thousand seventeen kind of exploded out to the rest of the world's with this cyberattack called not petiot a piece of malware that a worm a self propagating of fake ransomware that was actually just a destructive attack that spread from ukraine to the rest of the world and took down a whole bunch of multinational companies medical record systems and hospitals across the united states and ultimately cost ten billion dollars in global damages. The worst cyberattack in history by a good measure so the story of santa worm is an is kind of a detective story about the security researchers said you know across the private sector i focus on a few different people who were kind of trying to track this group and figure out who they are and try to warn. The world's that this ukrainian cyberworld was soon going to spill out and hit us to and then that is exactly what happened and and when that happens does the book kind switches from a detective story to a disastrous story. I track the effects of not that across the world as it kind of causes. This wave of devastation. So why the indictments. Now i can't say that i. I have a definitive answer. I mean i. I've asked justice department officials if this is about the election and they say no that you know this is just how long it takes to really get the evidence of who was at the keyboard doing what and have the basis for an indictment that will hold up in court although probably never really go to trial of these. These guys will never actually see the inside of a courtroom. But it's hard to imagine that there's not some sense of the election in the calculus here because we know that. The gru another part of this year you at least abc twenty-eight nc bear microsoft is already warned that they were targeting hundreds of organizations over the last year trying to breach them in that many of them were political consultancies and political campaigns associated with the election and they were probably trying to kind of hacking leak operation as they did in twenty sixteen so it seems to me like i mean maybe it wasn't even intended to but i kind of guessed it. Was that this. Indictment sends a message to the you that. Cut it out like if you were going to do something for this election. Just remember we are going to catch you over going to hold you responsible just as we did for these older attacks a no. There's all that calculus and it's easy for armchair cyber warriors like you and me to you. Know take potshots at it but is there anything you say about that is there. You can see reasons why governments would be reluctant to call out the russians on this. Well i think you're right like it's hamid armchair cyber where your best and you know. I know that this stuff is is hard. And i really. You know the as i was saying like the criminal. Indictment is a remarkable document. And i'm amazed at the amount of work. The clearly went into it. But i i do think that like we have to hold our public officials accountable and we have to hold them. Accountable to hold russia accountable. It doesn't seem that hard to me to put together. The forensic evidence that i could seed that these attacks were carried out by russia and make a public statement about that. I often used this. Lord of the rings analogy like this ring is so powerful like everybody wants it for themselves and nobody wants to do the hard work of carrying it to mount doom and and destroying it. Oh man that is the best analogy i ever heard. We definitely seen the escalation of this idea of continuous low level. Cyber conflict k in the early part of the decade minor annoyances but the not pech in everything else after seems to be more significant So any greenberg. Thank you for being on the show. we everybody go read his book. It's fantastic for taking the time with us thank you. This is a fun conversation our own rick. Howard speaking with sand worm author andy greenberg. You can hear more of this interview on our website. It's part of cyber wire pro and now a word from our sponsor verizon mitigate the risks and realize the benefits of digital transformation with the help of verizon a leader in cybersecurity managed and professional services for nearly two decades from secure cloud computing solutions to advanced detection and response capabilities. Verizon helped secure data networks and infrastructure of many of the world's best known organizations their annual data breach investigations. Report is considered the gold standard of cybercrime research. And verizon's leadership in network wireless and iot connectivity makes it uniquely capable of protecting the ever expanding attack surface. Let verizon help you optimize your defenses and achieve the maximum return on your security investments. Learn more at horizon. Enterprise dot com slash products slash security. And once. again. You hanis alrich. He is the dean of research at the sans technology institute. He's also the host of the storm. Cast podcast You harnessed it's great to have you back You and your team have been looking at supply. Chain risk says specifically when it comes to manage service providers. What sort of information do you have for us today. It is pretty prompted by event. Recently one large managed service provider tyler. Technology was breached and they had some of their customers contact us because they've found remote access tools installed on software systems and of course the basic question and was already tools that tyler technologies legitimate installed or due to the breach passwords and silver leaked. Is this something at that. An attacker installed after breaching poly technologies and retrieving these passports from it. So how do you explore. Something like this would pass. Did you all go down. Yes of course. I you look at what is being used now. A tool that was installed yet have remote access to us by all means a commercial legitimate tool and then of course it gets even more tricky. Now this is something that a managed service provider. What would install on your systems because they do need that kind of access. They need to be able to remote install remote monitoring Dwell of these things too. So what it really comes down to is when i was calling us know. Who's watching the watchers here. You have these companies that are managing networks off nail to provide security functions of for various levels of service that you can purchase but you need some kind of controls around how they're doing what they're doing so you should have some communication channels set up. They will tell you. These are kind of remote access tools. You're going to install on your systems particularly if you're still retaining some security monitoring function. You need to know that. In order to understand that this new communcation you see in and out of is legitimate. That's due to this particular tool that Vendor installed yeah. I was gonna say i mean it seems like really a. It's not unreasonable. To expect a high level of communication with these folks especially if they're going to have intimate access to your network exactly and that's really important that you also monitored and based on this. You can sort of totally relinquish control off network. You need to still retain some of some kind of monitoring some kind of access value. They'll watch the watchos. You're checking up on them and this is not necessarily an adversarial thing that you're doing. It's not that you don't trust them. It's just that you need to know who else is internet for. But that managed service provider because an attacker managing network has sometimes is probably acting very similar as these managed service provider. And you need to be able to tell the two apart well in this particular case how things play out. What did you discover. In the end. In the end we discovered he had this was legitimate. Install apparently but this is still a somewhat in progress. I don't think behalf half a complete conclusion yet in part because everything is still a little bit inflexible with this breach as well. All right. we're to the wise for sure. Johanna cell rick. Thanks for joining us. Spec do thanks to all of our sponsors for making the cyber wire possible especially are supporting sponsor proof points observed the leading people centric insider threat management solution learn more at observe it dot com and. That's the cyber wire for all of today's stories. Check out our daily briefing at the cyber dot com and for professionals and cybersecurity leaders. Who want to stay. Abreast of this rapidly evolving field. Sign up for cyber pro. It'll save you time and keep you informed. It's the breakfast of champions. Listen for us on your alexis. Smart speaker to don't miss this weekend's research saturday episode in my conversation with craig williams from cisco talos going to be discussing poet rat. Malware targeting the public and private sector in azerbaijan. That's research saturday. Check it out. The cyber wire. Podcast is proudly produced in maryland out of the startup studios of data tribe. Where they're co building. The next generation of cybersecurity teams and technologies are amazing. Cyber wire team is elliott peltzman through precaut- stefan. Bazire kelsey bond. Tim no dr. Joe kerrigan a role -tario and yellen. Nick leckey tina johnson. Bennett mo- russell. John patrick jennifer ivan rick howard. Kilby and i'm dave bittner. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week. It's time to take a moment to tell you about our sponsor tae neom today. We rely on end points for everything from remote to mobile banking telemedicine and online learning. That's why managing and securing these end points has never been more important. Provides unified endpoint management and security built for the world's most demanding. It environments providing instant visibility complete context and rapid response. That's why all six branches of the us armed forces and half of the fortune one hundred trust taniwha to protect their it operations. Join him at this year's converged twenty twenty virtual event to learn about the latest advances in unified endpoint management and security connect with industry peers and hear directly from other leading technology. Partners like google cloud and salesforce go to converge dante neom dot com and enter promo code cyber wire to receive a fifteen percent discount on a lab and we thank him for sponsoring our show.

five g us justice department islamic revolutionary guard co Rick howard united states andy greenberg iran booz allen Johanna so rick dave vitner John c murs Listrik dakota alexander cyberspace alarium commission Booz allen billion dollars russia Mr putin us democratic party democrat center for american p
Colonialism in Arabic and Chinese Literature - Prof Wen-Chin Ouyang

The Know Show

45:14 min | Last month

Colonialism in Arabic and Chinese Literature - Prof Wen-Chin Ouyang

"Before we saw the show. I'd like to take a minute to ask you guys to help us. Keep the show alive by subscribing or youtube channels and on spotify nigerians. Please also take time to follow us on instagram. at the no-show put for those of you can help a little bit more. Please contribute our patriot account. Which can be found on our youtube videos and website to get access to all these links please visit. Www dot the no show if you aren't already aware the no-show cost an initiative designed to make academic research accessible to everyone. Why is that. We spend billions of taxpayer money each year to fund some of the most amazing research but never really get to know what's in it by opening up the latest research a much wider audience. Not only do we expand our knowledge and understanding of the world but we also inspire young people who otherwise wouldn't know anything about this work is time we the people get involved with academic research even if it's just as listeners so we can truly make education a democracy so thank you very much for joining me on the where you have. You just doesn't stop can use of introduce yourself to get my audience and so about how he got to researching orientalists and other interesting pieces of literature attack. My name is mentioned riyan. I teach now at sarah's. I teach arabic arabic literature comparative literature and these days even post colonial studies I was born in taiwan but raised in libya educated in libya and in the united states. I in america. And now i teach in london so my personal history is interesting in that it is. It is hot of right. Why i'm doing what. I'm doing And sometimes i feel that. When i think about what i want to do with literature i think it is An attempt to go home to get home somehow. So let me start by telling you a little bit an anecdote anything you might need to serve. Might want to edit this a little bit later. An anecdote about myself when i joined the department of arabic in islamic studies in tripoli at the time university of in fact one of my professors who was palestinian. Asked me right. First day of class. I was i was probably not even nineteen. I was eighteen and he said Chinese said yes right. I was going to study literature and do comparative literature and he said. Can you read chinese. I said yes. Can you write chinese. Yes and he said you'll going to be the ambassador. Culture embassador between arabic and chinese. And i took that to heart so since i was eighteen i have been trying to do arabic and chinese comparative literature. Right bring arabic literature in chinese literature together in libya. It was not possible because nobody taught chinese literature in china in taiwan. I'm from taiwan. Right it if i had wanted to do arabic and chinese comparative literature. I didn't think going coming back to. Taiwan would give me the opportunity to do it because very few people studied arabic an aerobic was probably taught very woman three level haha. I'm going to the us right of first floral the super super power of the first world. And since i was lucky enough to be accepted by columbia university. I went there to study arabic and chinese and during the first years in the. Us system is very different. You take three years of courses you do oral exams comprehensive and then you start writing your dissertation or thesis so i did our big literature in arabic literature was not difficult for me because i had a very strong background in arabic literature so i picked up a lot of courses in chinese but when i came to writing the thesis i had to advisers Someone in chinese department and of course p. keke and we'll talk about peo- copier in a little bit when we talk about the peace on orientalists. They both said yes. If if you want to do it you can. But we don't really know how you can do it because we don't see interactions between chinese literature in arabic literature. Why why is that. Why did they feel. There is no intrusion app because at the time comparative literature was about sort of that cultural encounters right the encounters between two literatures. So at the time when it was done it was making the about influence though people who did comparative literature studied arabic literature and the influences of european literatures on arabic literature who does who studied chinese literature within comparative literature. Like studied european influences on chinese literature was very rare that you would find right say arabic right influence european. What chinese influence european. I mean later on. We had discussed Study of orient talia in europe. But that's again influenced right and so at sort of at the time. A comparative studies were primarily about the modern period. Right when you can see right The presence of europe through imperialism and colonialism. Of course i in right arabic and chinese literature right so the sort of like might chinese professor at the time said you know but also get more practical question is going is going to be who is going to sue. Provides your dissertation or your thesis. Because none of us would have the other right and two of them since as a chinese professor. I don't know. Arabic bike can look at chinese in your arabic At but when you bring these two together who is going to tell by that will on off right. So i have been thinking about these issues since then but i realized right if Even if we want to think of culture encounter or inter cultural dialogue as the most important thing behind. let's say comparative literature rack. it is not necessarily there's no traffic between two cultures or to literally spheres but it is more about how we do comparative literature that stands in the way of of bringing these two together so take for example. I just talk about how how. We conceptually Conceptualize language right if we think of it as pure arabic because it's grammatical right than it is sovereign nation state. Nothing from outside come in but whereas if we think of it as open fluid and it absorbs other languages and it is inherently multi-lingual right but when things from outside common because of grammatical Right language absorbs everything and transforms everything into something that is arabic right and the idea of grammatical Comes from the work of a friend. Karla malone who is teaching at a a an arbor in michigan right so she she's talked about grammatically and also the arabic. Language scholars have about the ways in which ride the arabic. Language absorbs quoting quote foreignness into its fabric right without giving away right that it is it It has foreign sources. I mean you have into koran you know Foreign words Limited right in due course in time. You know if i'm not the one who's witness the travel of something flooring into my language you know twenty years later thirty years later. Nobody would have known so. Let's say you're an arab right from the twenty first century It would never occur to you that a democratic year for democrat is obvious right. Certain words come from outside sources right from another language another culture because it disappears into your language so if we begin to imagine language differently right as inherently lingual but also it's not just words and grammar but also sound right also image right and you think of the visualizing capacity of language right than the images that it captures comes from elsewhere in a good example is objects right objects in a objects in tex- i so if you see coffee in your tax you know. It is the sixteenth century. Right you can even name it and if you see coffee in taiwanese texts you know right away. Ah-ha with does coffee come from right and when it did come into taiwan's you beginning to see these. The presence of The world let's call it the world in in in your very low coal context right so you have these things and the other one is embodiment drag the body language itself right so if you begin to think of language differently than you can see how the world comes together in one language arabic or chinese so this is one way of thinking about it right and the other sort of like major conceptual category that stands that stands in our way is how we conceptualize our the nation state as our community And we we imagined it as soon with orders right and forgetting that the nation state was created very recently in the nineteenth century for example and it becomes this edifice destructure define however we think about the world rise so we think about the world as made up of nation. State of sovereign borders right. And you can't cross these borders right in order for you to be global or international you have to travel from out of your nation state. A nation states often imagined as monolingual give is arab country. Right so it's official languages. Arabic and it's literally. Production is in arabic so for egyptian work of literature to travel outside of egypt. It has to go through the means of translation from arabic into french. So the word can travel to paris or into english so it can travel to london or new york and this is the the the paradigm the informs how we do what literature so where literature is defined as national literature that travels to the international arena which is really western europe and north america through translation right from third world language into french or english so these these sort of like the the the the the the conceptual blocks right that makes us always think of travel in this particular way right as something that has to be sanctioned by something else right so these are the conceptual problems that give us trouble when we try to move beyond the kind of comparative literature or with where the treasure that people have been doing right. So how do we do move beyond that can i. Cannot i saw interject in of how much of that do you think is is purely down to a colonial view of language and aclu of literature in general a win say colonial percent. Say so it's not per se but it is Definitely derived from western european episode. Amal aji in the nineteenth century right We can sink of the mapping The colonial mapping of the middle east right that the middle east is mapped into its current nation states. right that's definitely colonialism part of colonial legacy right but how we think about it is responsive if we think of it that way responsive to this mapping than yes it is colonial legacy right but in a way we have a pass. The allows us to move beyond this colonial legacy. If that makes sense to you ease. What was was operated very differently and the relations between. Let's say the middle east and middle. East itself is a colonial category Orientalist category the far east is another orientalist category If you are you didn't think of the middle east at middle east. We ought of a region as shown in iraq right muster but muster is not today's nation state and maher. Brady's are broadly the regions that we think off a people traveled freely right from one city to another one blocked geographical. You know vaguely not necessarily vaguely right. sort of like minds regents to another without without meeting sort of like without checkpoints or needing permissions or needing visas right so amar can traveler and moroccans have written extensively on travels to the east. They just traveled to the east and made it all the way to like to in the fourteen centuries All the way to china crossing all the muslim lands and so on so forth so we have the past to allow us to transcend how we conceptualize community but not just community because nation states becomes a conceptual category that. Lock everything into it. Right so egyptian. What is the junction. It's egyptian right. Yes in the our bowl a arab as well but you know you listen to egyptians a lot of they know we're not arab switch actions right so it is that nation state that becomes the framework of how you think of yourself. Spatially and temporarily temporarily against the ozone it takes. I mean takes woman in literature and literature and i guess you can see that pollution of the identity of being somebody you identified as being so bologna to particular nation at some point. Yes this is. What's happening right so in a sense instead of So so Sort of incident in in a sense of saying okay mara can writing right do you. How do you study moroccan writing right. And what's the history of Thinking about morocco is a nation state. Right so what you do. Is you focus of the literally Products that are produced within the borders of the nation state right but if you think of use the example of how the arab authors travel around the arab countries in travels in europe and so on so forth right it did. There's so much dialogue going on right between. Let's say moroccan writers tunisian to join writers living writers egyptian all the arab writers from all around the arab countries or arab nation states but also around the world. Adonis has traveled to china for example being Having dialogue with the chinese right his works have been trying to translate it in chinese and of course he speaks french right and he travels to frenchie traveled everywhere There's part of it right. The his writing cannot be contained. Right by let's say him as a syrian during nation state. This is what i'm talking about. So when you study literature within the national paradigm what you lose sight of is its connections to the rest of the world is dialogues with the rest of the world are. What's really interesting to me. Is this a couple of things. I wanna ask Since under suffolk. Las continuing with this idea and in particular. I wanna ask about so. How influential was the work of orientals. And until you get into the work you guys have done the case. So the orientals about how influential was oriented as as a as a piece of work on shedding light on. How so the the dichotomy between like the oriental the western world so i went to columbia university in nineteen eighty. Two right in orientalists was published in nineteen. Seventy eight right at. What side was a professor of english literature there but when i arrived he was to chair of the comparative literature program. A committee so i had my first meeting with. The professor was with him raimondo. Out of literature eventually sort of abandoned him in years years later when we met. I had a colleague who is a professor side. Studied with you as like sheepishly. Professor said i didn't take any courses with your hair looked at me. His i know It was very influential because As as a naive. Let's say student coming from libya right. It opened my eyes to the ways in which a literally tax is grounded in a complex relationship with its. Let's let's call it. It's lived experience in a sense. It's it's worldliness is part of a bigger world. Isn't it doesn't. It doesn't just create the romantic beautiful world out of the ugliness right shedding the ugliness of the world but everything comes into it but more importantly it is inform by Not just a text power relationships with other text but also the the the authors power relations with rounded in the probably the best person who put it very well is people. Your sociology is legit of literature. He says there's a field of cultural production right as a field. So literature productivity production be part of this field of cultural production but this one is surrounded by a power field apparel field includes political authority financial powers social power symbolic powers and so on so forth right and the field of A cultural production is by definition by necessity subordinate subordinate to the power field. But it doesn't mean that individuals authors artists or producers of culture have no power whatsoever. They can -sition themselves in such a way so as to open up this power feel and allows them to be original and to also respond to the power feel right so he talks about agency. I think what's missing in edward sides. Orientalists is this base for ryan. Lorient comes as much more total right. It's a body knowledge produced by you orient in the west through the disciplines in the west right and for the consumption of the west right and it becomes a discourse about the orients right right and more importantly site says right and this is also inform by the west will to dominate the orient It's been how many years i can't remember. I can't count. i'm not very good. It's been at least forty years for years since it was first published and there has been a lot more research on oriental. Ism right about this. Category of knowledge produce in the west through the disciplines of the west right. And what we're beginning to see is really If to think of world literature in a good way is really the circulation of people and knowledge right across languages and cultures in this case even religions right so that what you get is orientalist him as an international collaboration on producing knowledge about islam and the east and the oriented that Also what what. The recent research sorta opens up this possibility of the orientalist to take different positions. Right so not all. Orientalists are part of the machinery of empire. And i think a edwards Sort of like acknowledged that in his later book culture in imperialism and he says you know if we think of a culture as a site right of opposition and resistance right. What's happening right in. Probably nineteen nineties was the collaboration among what he called metropolitan intellectuals and these included right americans europeans but also an in his particular case study would be arable arab intellectuals who mastered who had the mastery of european languages but european epistemology And your zone so that they can contribute right to Fashioning knowledge about the east in a different way but to resist right What he would call hegemony of european epistemology in a much more effective way so now that he's sort of i've been working comparative literature in between these these different worlds for quiet some time we we discussed before we started About who how now you you'll comparison is is between chinese literature an arabic literature. So tell me more about that. And where are those of relationships between the two okay. I'm i haven't got quite there yet. But i'm getting there is so once we imagined language differently and we imagine the ways we can do comparative literature Differently we can begin to use things that we find in literally text to open out the texts into intercultural dialogue and it to intercultural dialogue does not necessarily have to be symmetrical ride up in terms of time or in terms of geography or in terms of language or Doesn't have to be metrical So recently i have been developing the idea of silk roads of world literature grew the so at an. I think it was so what what i probably you know. Let it slip about coffee and tea. So what i'm trying to sing is if we can if we can Everything is multi lingual in my in my brain right now right if so so using the model of would literature but instead of focusing on text literally works themselves traveling through translation. What if we shift our side to things right ideas things. People ideas ideology and word views and languages that travel ryan and you can actually trace these in our neutrality literally tax so let's say things right. Silk is one right So silk comes from china. So i have to two things right. Things one from china when from arabic And they don't have to be symmetrical so silk is interesting right. Who dat cat for. Example hadith in mia that tiller of waters right silk is is the fabric of home rose right but also silk she. She throw her tax as she writes the history in her novel of cosmopolitan beirut right beirut the cosmopolitan history of beirut she uses silk right to give you the history of silk and beirut's relationship with import of silk and silk industry right Paraphernalia right in order to give you the texture of the cosmopolitan cosmopolitan Of beirut city right so silk is interesting so you can see. You know what's going not right. So silk is not just a thing it's fabric of narrative. Riley is interesting because everywhere it went ride. It also generated local farming and local industries and local cultures So in syria in the late nineteenth century silk was very important part of economy right in the levant. Men dot collapsed towards the second half of the nineteenth century right silk for me and silk export in silk industry. Support the the rise of a kind of Arabic writing right. And you find this in elizabeth halts book i silk capital and with the collapse of the silk because of french competent right also the new right intellectual rights elite class moved to cairo and in cairo. You have the cotton farming in cotton trade in cotton industry right. So it's it's interesting that way so still is one the other one that i have looked at is jay wright. Jade is prize in valued in china. Right but itself comes from central asia. You think why why you know so. In in one of the chinese women's novels it's called at end. She comes from a muslim background is called from funeral right. Jade is is the thing jade jade carving jade history right is the thing that brings the threat of narrative together in this novel. Right this novel is about the of muslims in china remain it. It's amazing isn't it right. Listen newsroom so so so it is it is about. It is not just a thing thing is entire culture is the fabric of your writing. Team moved to coffee. It's even it's even more interesting because it's much more pervasive. So coffee comes from east africa. It traveled around the world through yemen. Right maha and then from yemen to mecca. Istanbul and then right away to europe right copy. Coffee is not just a being. A husk is not just a drink right. It's an entire culture institution and it brings with it coffee house. And if you look at the coffee house in nagy mahfouz manning it is the sort of home home it is it is it is the place is it. Is the public sphere. Were the nation is born. Mom at you travel. Yeah as you travel. You travel with coffee coffee me. Something in arabic writing coffee means another thing in european. Writing and coffee means different things in japanese writing an entire knees writing so you can establish how coffee itself link. The world and colonialism is a huge part of it of course but also how you diversified and produce different cultures culture expressions in culture sort of institutions and rights of consumption. That's important you know it's not just about roasting your coffee beans a taiwanese not pride themselves. They're the best roasters of coffee beans so and so forth by. And then you bring t right coffee from the middle east chief from china and then you realize that. Wait a second right. She does pretty much the same thing. But t in japan japanese writing is also like silk in khuda barricades text the very fabric of language in literary tax rack Japanese tea houses in tea ceremonies are word famous i. We don't wait chinese who produced t. We don't even do that right. But the chinese intellectuals right like like who's in his cohorts right met in tea. Houses talked about their work in she houses and spend their time writing in tea houses. Right and the tea. Houses travel from china through central asia. All the way to like abby johnson right so central asia. You have to try hannay and when i was in dhaka stunned. Someone actually told me well. Actually the coffee house was modeled on the teahouse house. A sort of a development came off though so it but it's interesting that she so coffee started earlier in the middle east and t- came in later right but in into lake in central asia. You have the key houses. So i don't know because you know turkey is. The place is one of the earliest places for that. That had tea houses right. So i mean i don't know i'm i'm still you know finding out about this research With there's true but you can see tea. Houses are the same. As coffeehouses t was introduced in england through coffeehouse the coffeehouse inland but it functions differently elsewhere but a coffee house is not in europe is not just a coffee. House is also a place where you can go in. Sit right in. Have dessert in half food in the middle east is the same. Any few weed or Punks a novel. My name is read. a coffee. House is where men sit. Need to me when i know what so there was. There was an attempt at banning conflict houses in mecca in istanbul Foods coffee has meant to many things. Go on right. You can set your body parts in the coffee house. I you drink alcohol. You smoke drugs right in coffee houses so you know it's so that that's what so the the other right so once you begin to think about it but coffee is so much heart of language right again. Tea and coffee is so much part of language that we don't think of it as foreign whether you think of it in english nerves chinese right. It's not foreign right. The most interesting thing i found was an entire of homes on a tie which is t in moroccan. Marco does the collection all about t really interested in it. I mean i mean the x. become i mean the are of have their own now yes are to fight with t in a particular way. Yeah so isn't the same concept of something coming in from another countryman suzy's of language or culture of merges into society but mentioned into everyday life. Yeah and this is this is. This is what i did when i did. The case. study on orientalist them into hussein's Right and basically the hussein right Picked up right Certain ideas from let's say or european orientalists Think of two in particular one is the idea. That pre islamic poetry was not authentic it was fabricated later right. So this was one orientalist and the other one is it He used that right to say. Can we trust. This has something to do with arabic. Studied self right. If we want to understand the language of the koran. Would we go. Where do we turn to return to pre islamic arabic poetry. Because that's doin an adult destined repository of the arabic language. Arabic poetry arabic culture at the hussein comes in he says Can authenticate that right. So can we really trusted as a historical document or document that gives us how arab use arabic at the time the koran was revealed for example so that he took this idea right and the other one is actually interesting. because it's a more positive one which is Knowledge of ancient Civilizations in egypt and in iraq and in syria palestine syria. Right and he. He he would use these. These were all european discoveries. right In arabic books you find mentions of these but you know it was. The europeans who decipher these ancient languages and published a texan translated into modern languages. Right of so. He is sort of the housing than used Knowledge about ancient egypt to say by egyptian identity is rooted in ancient pharaonic egypt. Not in It Islam in egypt. Only so in a way race. So this orientalists if you take take take it right. It's it's it's a body of knowledge that travels right but when he travels it picks up different functions. Right this Its function is not determined. By how the west saw the function of oriental ism but by how local or native intellectuals saw its proper place or its place not necessarily proper in the largest scheme of how they were imagining community. The hussein comes in and says right so we have all this information now. I can tell you like egyptian. Identity is multiple addiction. It's arabic islamic. But it's also pharonic and more importantly because of the greek and relationship with the greek. It is mediterranean so basically right if we are going to continue to be rooted in this iconic cosmopolitan identity that we need all the languages of of these regions in the past and at present right so we need to learn latin. We need to learn greek. We need to learn arabic. We need to learn french. We need to length english. Pretty soon is he's going to say we need to learn pharonic as well and i think it would be best if we could i it is it is about that right and he would say we're not you know we're not just one thing all these things and this is what we want right. And this is the future Coffee muscle rice and future of culture in egypt. This so so. So what i wanted to be able to do with this case. Studies is again to show the dialogues. That take place right even around something like orientalists them right and the ways in which right agency of intellectuals who even borrow the concept and borrow the paradigm or structures right. Use this right in order to fashion. Their own worldview so modern hostile of All that and the other thing i wanted to be able to do is really and this. Methodological and theoretical is to restore the complexity of the context in which The was speaking right. He was not just he. He was responding not just to europe and he was not blindly imitating europe right. He was responding and was responding to the type of writing. He was doing right. He was not just writing an academic book right. He was writing for the general public. He was writing for his colleagues right Rat he was responding to them and they all came from different positions right And i wanted to that right as part of a larger project of seeing egyptian culture at the time. So it's it's the context of a think i talk about about print culture right. It's audience right. And how how complex. How new ones how rich it was at one to restore the hussein to that complex huge fabric and the other thing i wanted to be able to do with also restore orientalists to. It's original context ride. As part of europe's discourse about itself right so orientalists was part of european discourse about on modernism. Modernity and europeanism is always twined. Twinned with something called divas. Ism mind though. These were ushered. Right and european modernism would go back to the classical heritage in say classics. Our classical heritage is the root of our modernism out of our majority right. So in a sense i want to dock to be be much clearer not targeted against the middle east. To say you're the you're the enemy or whatever is not just part of that is part of larger vision at modern europe but makes faucet in a in the just this of orientalists can take so many different foams wherever and millions of the bigger. Yeah yeah but it's it's very important to me to be able to say that. I don't want that to say to deny that you know part of oriented Were part of orientalists. Some of it was also part of the colonial machinery. I don't want to say. I think that remains a part of it right. Whatever side identify remained a part of it but not all orientalists was. That must've just like to take a moment to kind of remind you guys to subscribe to our show. An oprah kaas platfo and youtube as well as instagram. You can find these links on. Www dot no-show dot net. Join us today and be pov the research revolution.

middle east libya china europe riyan department of arabic Karla malone us columbia university Amal aji youtube keke beirut egypt tripoli london talia asia beirut city amar
The Dark Web Series - Part 2 - Dark

Seven: Disturbing Chronicle Stories of Scary, Paranormal & Horror Tales

27:41 min | Last month

The Dark Web Series - Part 2 - Dark

"I'm your host k town and you're listening to seven disturbing of scary paranormal and hough twos. Ross william albert. Who called himself. The dread pirate roberts claimed he will never be arrested with the f. b. i. Take down of the twenty nine year old bridge. The silk roads biggest drug dealer. The notorious silk road website came to an end. Albridge was charged with money laundering narcotics traffic conspiracy as well as computer hacking the. Us department of justice seized silk roads website. Nearly four billion dollars embiid coins which is the main currency on the dark web and halted what was thought to be nearly forty million dollars in annual revenue. Figure may be astoundingly more but not proven. Internet chatter claims albert had the audacity to give forbes eight interview and at that point everyone could see the end for him was near journalist. Adrian chance two thousand one gawker article covering the silk road could not have helped. Albert's case either. Silk road lasted two and a half years. Still how did it. And the other points of interest in the tore network begin in two thousand eleven over. Its reached out anonymously for feedback to an idea of his in a message board on a website sugary dot. Org he asked. I came across. this website. Called silkroad is the tour in service that claims to allow you to buy and sell anything online anonymously. I'm thinking of buying off it. But i wanted to see if anyone in here and heard of it or would recommend it. I found it through silkroad for twenty dot. Wordpress dot com. Which is if you have a tour. Browser will direct you to the real website. Let me know what you think. Ingesting in case that tactic didn't work albridge also posted on bitcoin forum. A couple of days later and sparked instant excitement there over just great idea. Thrived created a boom in bitcoin but ultimately failed because of his his boasting and sloppy tactics cost him his privacy and eventually his freedom after the fall silkroad the two smaller markets shadow black market reloaded and sheep received such a massive influx of silkroad refugees that the former closed down gracefully saying that they didn't need the scrutiny. All the new members would bring and the latter closed suddenly taking everyone's bitcoin with them silkroad. Two point oh open just a month after his arrest run by former silk road employees. Three of whom were arrested. A couple of months later and one of whom was in fact. An undercover agent silkroad two point zero state open for a year before to shut down by authorities after that several markets rose and fell a few by law enforcement infiltration the most just shut up shop usually taking the bitcoin of their customer within the appetite for online drug markets was voracious drug users worldwide had discovered a newer simpler way to acquire better quality drugs at reasonable prices and the closures bust and scams were a little more than a nuisance. The cost of illicit activities. It was not long before new. Markets dwarf the size of silk road the classic exit scam. Many say is the perfect crime built up a network of trust among customers then disappear with all their damn money. Those who have been ripped off have little recourse. There's no one to complain to when you're illegal goods don't turn up or aren't what was promised no door to knock on and demand your money back individual drug dealers have done it throughout the dark. Market's history to various degrees with tony. Seventy six setting the bar but on a much larger scale sometimes. The owners of market entrusted with all the users bitcoins in their accounts and held in escrow. Decide to simply closed the market and move the bitcoin into their own personal wallets. Such was the case with atlantis in november of two thousand thirteen. Although in retrospect it is likely that atlantis was simply spooked as they had apparently been fed information about the ongoing fbi investigation and sheep marketplace in december the same year and so it was late march. Two thousand fifteen with the largest black market. The dark web has ever known the owners of evolution marketplace known as vertu in kimball brazenly told staff that they were closing the site and taking the coin the estimated value of everything within their control range from twelve million to thirty four million dollars worth of bitcoin at prevailing market rates. This should not have come as a surprise to customers as well as getting larger. These new markets had widely different philosophies of doing business than the trailblazers gone. Were the days. When the leading dark net market socorro refused to sell or list anything the purpose of which is to harm or defraud another person. The markets that emerged to fill the gaps left by silkroad road listed stolen credit cards and personal information hacking services and malware alongside drugs for personal use. Evolution was founded by character. Well known to the dark web virtue had been administrator of tour carding form a massive community of those who trade stolen credit or debit card account. Information for profit. They sold personal information credit card dumps. Atm scammers cloning machines and fake id's and the owners also pulled ponzi schemes on their own members. In retrospect is should have been obvious to someone who had made a career of ripping people off with stage a heist where risk was minimal and the reward was great. Evolutions administrators had probably planned the loan con giving themselves a year or so to establish trust and amass bitcoin. Evolution had a clear interface and importantly lower commissions there any other major online black market the prophets while still healthy were unlikely to be adequate for those risking their lives and frito to former moderators of evolution. Forums confirmed separately. Data staff meeting was called the morning of the closure. Though they recall it slightly differently we had a staff meeting at ten thirty. Am this morning. Said in has w great where the owners announced that the market was being closed and they were taking everything within said markets and forms would be online for thirty minutes for us to save anything we wanted to keep. It was pretty brazen confirmed evil grin. Vertu wasn't there campbell. Said we waited a few minutes four and then in a few minutes. He said vertu isn't coming to the meeting or to any meetings again. Because i'm taking evil offline and thirty seconds when silk road was launched in february two thousand eleven one of the stated intentions of dread pirate roberts was to create a place where a peaceful people could buy and sell drugs free from violence. Exit scams brought out the violence and people many other vendors on evolution. How large amounts of money tied up money. They owed to very real people in real life. Who would be very unsympathetic vendors. Posted that they fear for their lives if they could not pay their own suppliers many of those who lost money in evolutions exit. Scam were baying for blood of virtue and kimball. They didn't just want the money returned. They wanted those who had taken it to suffer. The pitchfork brigade got even uglier when they started offering money for the identities of other evolution staff members all of whom were presumably as in the dark as any of their customers. Some went one step further. Not just the uninvolved staff but their families as well. Despite the thousands of angry customers combing for clues following the bitcoin and sharing their theories that absent founders of evolution or never located they joined a small the growing number of dark web druglords who apparently got away scot-free and enjoyed their spoils in anonymity whenever one market went down other markets operating simultaneously would get an influx of new members and those without the proper infrastructure would buckle under the demand after evolution closed. Its doors there were no consistently reliable markets for some time many said they would forgive the owners of evolution for their sands if they would only reopened the stable and efficient market thanks to the transparency of bitcoin. It did not take long before the gap in the market was filled again with others attracted by the potential for massive returns alphabet was launched in mid two thousand fourteen and it was immediately apparent that it existed purely for the profit and may no pretense at the lofty ideas and morals of the old school markets alphabet was the enemy of the new dark net markets way bigger than silkroad was but darker selling not only drugs but weapons stolen personal information. Computer hacking tools male wear ransomware stolen goods and services to steal identities and ruin lives with very few exceptions. If it was illegal it could be purchased on obey. This was the true wild west of the dark web. There were very few rules on alpha obey other than a ban on child pornography. They ban on activities designed to circumvent commissions going to appleby owners and a stipulation that any male wear sold must have a built in function to ensure that it could not impact any computer in russia whether belonging to government industry or private citizens this final rule alongside alpha obeys large russian-speaking membership and the russian language forms their rival the size of the english language. Ones mitt that the website was widely considered to be run by russian organized crime. Before long albay was ten times the size silkroad ever was dark. Net markets had come a long way from the days of the creation of a young idealistic texan in silicone valley alphabet continued. Its dominance of the dark webs ecommerce actually through two thousand fifteen two thousand sixteen and into two thousand seventeen. Every major drug dealer sold their wares on the largest and most reliable dark net market and most customers flocked there as well new users found the interface to be intuitive and user friendly with most of the more technical aspects of buying illegal goods online automated for their convenience alphabet worked at keeping the software updated providing continuous improvements to the customer experience. Those looking to purchase identity information could set the controls to return listings by location birth year credit limit and other useful search parameters drug buyers could quickly identify vendors with overnight service to their location or sort from cheapest to most expensive or highest to lowest customer satisfaction rating alpha obey also facilitated access to services such as sophisticated money laundering and swatting. Which is bomb threats or false reports to law enforcement. Barring from marketing tactics of legal businesses customers were given referral links providing an incentive for members to recruit new customers to the site alpha obey invested heavily in aspect measures to ensure its owners remain safe and anonymous the website employed security administrators and programmers to stay on top of it security as well as scam watchers responsible for monitoring reporting and disabling scam attempts. They hired a pr manager moderators and customer service representatives. Who were removed from the operations of the business. These people were only responsible for the marketing and inquiries from clientele those employees entrenched themselves on clear websites such as reddit ready to respond to queries and site services and bring in new customers. Whenever the chance arose the owners of appleby were not given to rallying speeches debating. Socio political theories opening book clubs or setting ready challenges involving complex manifestos people were businessman running an effective market designed to maximize profit or as owners and contractors there. Faq section included. The question is alpha obey legal. Their response was some people have really asked this question. Of course not. We are an anonymous marketplace selling drugs weapons and credit cards. Make sure you access the website through tour or through a vpn to ensure anonymity. We take no responsibility if you get caught but not. Everybody was happy with this. New breed of dark net market. Meany who had been part of silk road did not give their business. That was happy to provide poisons weapons and tools to facilitate extortion theft and fraud alongside their favorite drugs so long as it turned a profit smaller break-away markets emerged that has strict rules about what could be sold their some limiting sales to only the less harmful drugs such as cannabis m. d. m. a. and lsd. These niche markets proved popular when many of the long term dot net market users however alpha obey was the most visible the easiest to use had the best user interface and the widest range. It was the dark net market for dummies of the dark web. Simple to access and requiring virtually no technical proficiency to buy almost anything imaginable also. A light walmart was the new one. Stop emporium for all things illegal and its doors. Were open to anyone with a bitcoin. Now their downfall. According to the local news a twenty five year old man who had been in custody in a jail cell for less than a week took his own life but choking himself to death with a towel he had been arrested on suspicion of being alpha o. To founder and owner of alfa obey alpha bay had been off line for a week prior to the news. Market downtime always led to rumors panic. fud and reassurances on read it and various dark web forms there would always be people who feared the worst when the market became suddenly unavailable that the owners had exit scammed or law enforcement at taking it down. Sometimes they would be right but more often than not it would simply be website maintenance or short term problem with dos attacks. Members would not be warned ahead of time when the market deliberately took itself off line for maintenance upgrades or security patching because that would invariably result in panera draws of bitcoin causing site instability and even more down-time thus although there was the usual panic from the jittery minority. Most people were not too worried and more prepared to sit out the downtime. It's an established market. So outages are expected from time to time. Wrote one reddit moderator. When they go down we give them the benefit of the doubt. As in the past that they will come back up after a few hours however the our stretched in today's and uneasiness increased among the dark web community as rumours became verify new stories. There had been a major dark web related raid in quebec. This raid led to an arrest in thailand but authorities were tight-lipped whether it was a vendor or somebody related to the dark net markets alpha obeys. Pr employees continue to post updates on what they knew but it was clear that they were as much in the dark as anybody else. They had no access to the inner workings of the website. It wasn't until news filtered through on july thirteenth that the man arrested in thailand had been found dead the day before that the enormity of what had happened at alpha obey dawned on the dark net market users on july the fifth two thousand seventeen royal. Thai police had executed a search warrant in bangkok on. Alexandra cosmas a canadian ties. As at lived in thailand on and off for eight years and had married a tie with cemented his residency. When police came in kyw's as was not prepared in his bedroom. His laptop was open and unencrypted and he was logged in as admin to the back end server of alpha obey he had also had text files with user names and passwords that enable law enforcement to access all of the information and crypto currency montereau z. Cash and a therrien as well as bitcoin. All of it on the alpha-based server according to a criminal complaint kyw's s served as the leader of the managers and operators of the criminal organization who collectively control the destiny of the enterprise according to personal financial statements on the computer kyw's as estimated his own net worth to be just over twenty three million dollars. Police seized assets including a lamborghini for which he paid nine hundred thousand. Four a porce. His wife's mini cooper and a bmw motorcycle. They also took control of eight point. Eight million dollars in crypto currency. Although police had seized and shut down alpha obey they left its users in the dark as to what had happened. Kyw's as was the arrest in thailand. That had been rumored the no one was aware that they had in fact called the leader of the entire operation. Nor does anybody know what happened. In those seven days between kyw's as arrest and his death as it was reported in the bangkok post the ns narcotics suppression bureau locked up in one of their basement. Detention cells with the attached bathroom on the eve of his first court hearing cars as went into that bathroom with a towel and guards later found him dead on the floor. It's an apparent suicide. An autopsy will try to sift through the massive suspicion of yet another suicide in sb comedy a week later on july. Twenty two thousand seventeen. Us general jeff sessions. Note a press conference with the fbi. Acting director andrew mccabe and deputy attorney general broad ruin stain. The attorney general said that the us was in the midst of the deadliest drug epidemic in its history. Today some of the most prolific drug suppliers use. What is called the dark web session. Says it's called dark not just because these sites are internationally hidden it has also called dark because of what is sold on many of them. Illegal weapons stolen identities child pornography and large amounts of narcotics today. The department of justice announced the. Take down of dart market now for bay. This is the largest down in world history. E thing law enforcement partners in europe in thailand the netherlands lithuania canada the uk france and germany. This is a landmark operation added. The fbi is andrew mccabe alphabet was roughly ten times. The size of silk grow so we are talking about multiple servers different countries under. It's a millions of dollars in crypto currency in a dark net drug trade that spans the globe the only mention of the death of the alleged owner operator of the site in custody a week earlier was by deputy attorney general broad ruin stain following the death of the defendant charged in the american case. Our us attorney filed a civil complaint which will ensure that appropriate action is taken with regard to all assets that were seized in the course of that investigation kaiser's extravagant lifestyle suggested that the dark web administrator was doing very nicely from the commission's taken from every sale other reported two hundred and fifty thousand drug listings on apple bay as well as luxury cars properties enjoyed drugs and parties and it was not faithful to his wife. He was active on pickup artists form. Where he was frequently found to be boasting about his wealth and assets according to his indictment the commissions were worth at least tens of millions of dollars. Kaiser says owned a company called technologies as a front to explain is income in crypto currency holdings. Aba was supposed to be a website design company but according to court records the website for b technologies is barely functional and does not appear to support any substantial business as with silkroad it was a basic mistake brought police to kyw's door he had reused a personal email address pimp underscore alex underscore ninety one at hotmail dot com in the header of the email sent by alphabet say to people who needed their passwords reset. Police were able to match that email to the dark. Net market community was skeptical of the official suicide custody store. Speculation range from plausible to absurd many had pointed out the corruption in the thai system. Something that news reports in bangkok also eluded to however the theories differ as to how that corruption may have come into play. Corrupt law enforcement killed him after extracting information on any cash he has stashed away. One reddit user said what if a bunch of cops were already getting paid off but once is an got nabbed. The dirty cops had a tie up the loose ends set. Another thailand is notorious for having corrupt law enforcement wrote someone called murder homeless people. I wonder if kaiser says paid off some guards to fake his death he certainly had enough money to do so releasing a photo of him dead in a cell seems like overkill to me like they are really trying to convince you. He's dead given the widely held belief that alphabet had connections to russian organized crime. Sometimes that causes was patsy. Phone guy up on who's head others involved in the operation. Put a bounty to stop him from revealing any sensitive information about the business and those who are really in charge more generous minded folk. Don't he sacrificed himself for the greater. Good maybe he wasn't a snitch and gave his own life to keep them from torturing sensitive information on users and vendor info out of him. It takes true balls to take your life away. This man is a hero. Wrote dark knight others were having none of it. What the hell is the point of running a dark net market for three years if your plan b is to kill yourself. Attorney general sessions had a message for anyone thinking taking causes as place. You can not hide and we will find you. Thank you for listening to this edition of seven. Make sure you subscribe on apple podcast so you never miss an episode. I'm your host k town. And i'll see you next time on seven.

kyw Ross william albert Albridge vertu kimball brazenly roberts department of justice appleby thailand fbi socorro frito reddit Adrian albert alpha bay Albert
How the pandemic changed Paul Salopek's around-the-world, on-foot journey

The Current

10:07 min | 4 months ago

How the pandemic changed Paul Salopek's around-the-world, on-foot journey

"I'm tired host of ideas in this age of click bait and shouting ideas is a meeting ground for people who want to deepen their understanding of the world. Join me as we crack. Open a concept to see how it plays out over place time and how. It matters today from the rise of authoritarianism to the history of cult movies. No idea is off. Limits ideas is on the cbc listening. Or wherever you find your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. A lot of things were put on pause in two thousand twenty because of the pandemic many of us were in the middle of something or had big plans. That were derailed. But only one man was in the middle of a walk from ethiopia to argentina and covid nineteen arrived journalist. Paul sal appec has been on the out of eden walks twenty thirteen. His goal is to retrace the steps of human migration. That's a thirty four thousand kilometer trek. He hoped to learn something about humanity in our history along the way. Now he's just hoping twenty twenty one will be the year he can get moving again. We've checked in with paul back several times in the years. Since he began his journey he last spoke with matt galloway in april. And we've reached paul this time in myanmar. Hello hi katherine. Happy to check back in latro. Yeah nice to nice to meet you over the radio. How has the pandemic change plans. Paul like everybody else. It's put my project my life on pause to some degree so I am taking a break from the physical walk to catch up on a lot of writing and waiting for borders to reopen here in south east asia. How how has it been after being on the move for so long to suddenly find yourself stuck in one place with seven like for you. Well you know it's it's not that bad actually I've got to step back and remind you and remind my readers listeners that that i've paused before for periods of time never this long but i paused for several months in israel. I paused for gosh. Eight or nine months caucuses in central asia pause for the winter and generally it's climate or or whether you know walking true Winter snows as a time to stop or time to wait for visas to clear. This is the first kind of health reasons for stopping in. It's not that bad It's allowed me to catch up on on a lot of the backed-up work remind us what you're hoping to learn from this project. The out of eden walk is is a slow storytelling slow journalism project so I'm interested in seeing the world at a at a much slower pace than than most my colleagues. Who are in the media. So i i was a foreign correspondent for american newspaper for a long time based in africa and i decided About almost eight years now. Gosh it's it's a while to kind of step off Dsl reading cycle of of digital news. Go in the opposite direction slowdown Slowdown my storytelling. slowdown The pace of my own life. To kind of see if i can extract a bit more meaning from mma my reporting process so given that that quest for perspective. Let's talk a little bit about the perspective from where you are right now in in rural me and martinez with the pandemic looks like from there. You know it's it's it's been interesting. The the covert nineteen crisis Initially didn't have much of impact in south east asia. I wasn't registering the infection rates. That that you were seeing in in like europe or north america and it was stores puzzlement to public health officials and scientists about why that is but now this winter It is it is it has gone up again so You know there. are you know. Many thousands of people infected defeat the morbidity the mortality rates rather the number of deaths quite a bit low then than europe or the americas. And they're still some questions about why that is in this interesting questions that i'm actually kind of looking into to write about going forward. Do you have any insight at this. Point will the experts. I've talked to Have a have a bunch of theories about why this is happening. It could be everything from some cultural factors the fact that some societies in asia you know. Don't shake hands. Don't make physical contact as a lot of other cultures. Do it could be something to do with the weather. The climate The novel coronavirus doesn't appear to do as well in kind of tropical hot steamy environments But one of the most intriguing Hypotheses that i'm picking up on is that there might be some genetic occurred immunity to some level right. These are these are human populations that have been exposed to crow viruses. The kind of the family of viruses that the current up pandemic is causing for many many years for centuries millennia. In fact i read one. Scientific paper hypothesizing even you know twenty five thousand years where they may not. Have you know. Total of unity. Your total resistance to this particular bug. They might have caught similar flus in the past gave them a little bit of an advantage. And then this is still being investigated. That's really interesting. I'm also curious about how the pandemic has changed the way that you reflect on your own trip. So far the path you've already walked from ethiopia to me and i had paused just to be clear. I paused the walk already before just slightly before the pandemic struck so i was settled down to finish a book. So what's happened since though with these barriers coming up. You know borders closing domestic. Corentin rules prohibiting. You know travel. It's brought to mind sort of how as humans have moved across the earth. You know for tens of thousands of years the ancestors that i'm following left africa anywhere between sixty to one hundred and twenty thousand years ago. We we both brought disease with us and it were exposed to environments where there were these spillover effects right where we picked up books from the natural environment to to close contact. So it's brought to mind questions about you know for the last three and a half or so years. I've been walking the silk roads through central asia eastward from turkey and we know that a lot of goods traveled on those thousand year old trade routes. But so did disease right. The plague moved into a western europe. And so this is a recurring theme. And as i did some homework i was. You know a pretty amazed at discover the something like contagious. Tuberculosis has been found. Hitching a ride and human lungs for almost half a million years right or pre human logs case so this is part of the human story. You are supposed to head to china. Next how those plants been affected by the pandemic. Well you know it's been Difficult to to move forward to inch forward at five kilometers an hour Because of the pandemic. So i have you know had to kind of wait until a new health. Regimes are in place until kind of humankind. General gathers enough knowledge scientific and medical knowledge about this particular virus to know how it can be treated and how can be controlled and that's taken months months and you know it's taken A long time to develop vaccines Actually it's been very fast but not a relative span at seemed like longtime almost a year so right now. I'm hoping that in the spring as the vaccine regimes of start to have their effect as public health policy kinda gets to grip on how to control the pandemic at border crossings. I'm of course. Limited to land borders on my own fly. My hope is say by you. Know march april to be resumed the walk towards non towards southern china. For what's going to be a fairly long traverse a china about a year and a half. I can still. I mean we can hear your your passion and your enthusiasm for this project. But i do wonder given the length of the delay. Did you think about giving up on the walk at any point. No that's a natural question to ask you know not yet you know. I've i've told my readers that i've reserved the right If if the walk stops being interesting if it stops being kind of a challenge to the imagination i reserve the right to pause and permanently in stop and walk off the trail but so far one of the great joys and one of the kind of the humbling privileges of of doing this project that i've not reached that stage yet. Despite all the obstacles you know whether landscape or whether or closed borders. Because i have this great Advantage of waking up every day. When i'm on the move to some new challenge that is not like the one from yesterday or the day before it just this continuing problem solving a learning process in the best way i can describe it. It's like an adult education course that goes on from horizon horizon and the subject matter one day maybe ancient history or it may be navigating swamp or may be learning the names for dogs in the local language that are at us walk on country vote. Well listen i it just sounds so compelling really amazing we wish you good luck in getting going again and and safe travels when you do. Resume them thank you. Paul thank you catherine. It's always a privilege pulse. Up is a journalist in the middle of the out of eden. Walk for national geographic for more. Cbc podcasts go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.

covid Paul sal appec cbc matt galloway south east asia ethiopia asia paul europe Corentin myanmar argentina africa martinez Paul americas israel north america
Little Atoms 689 - Cat Jarman's River Kings

Little Atoms

34:38 min | Last week

Little Atoms 689 - Cat Jarman's River Kings

"This is little atoms. Aradio show about ideas and coach with me new any sweet history of the viking from dr german in her new book river kings. German is a bio archaeologist and field archaeologist specializing in the viking age women unwrapping newly she uses forensic techniques like isotope analysis radiocarbon dating and dna analysis on human remains to untangle the experiences of past people from broader historical narratives is a fellow of the sightsee of antiquarians and she has directed excavations at viking age sites in england in ukraine which is currently a senior adviser unacademic content for the new museum of the viking age. You know and today we're going to be talking about cats book which is river kings a new history of the vikings from scandinavia to the silk roads cat. Welcome to little atoms. Thank you so this book. As i said. This is a new history of the vikings from scandinavia to the silk roads. But at the heart of this book is a tiny little beads. Yeah so that's is a canadian canadian being a semi precious stirring as Has been used instead. He's today for jewelry. Really by beach will and This was a be that i came across almost by accident. It happened to have been buried. Almost twelve hundred years ago in a viking age mass burial erupted darbyshire. But it was could have forgotten about it was it was picked up during the excavations poway in a books and then in two thousand seventeen i came across as i was studying this viking side on it is really appeal to me. Because there's been usually. I hadn't seen it before such looking at the material and realized that he had much talk. You come from gujarat in india and asteroid invested in which is about us foreign london england as he can get really during the viking age and that was just something that i got completely obsessed with the photo and i want to look into how that could happen. How could you get a bead like that. All the way from india to In the ninth century on why sorry that's essentially wherever we can started it's retracing that journey backwards and essentially trying to reassess. What what. We know about the vikings along the way the british isles of obviously logged storied history about bathe invaded and occupied and settled by various different people. And in many towns you go under jobs about tripping over some sort of roman remains for instance but it turns out that this hardly any physical evidence of the vikings having been here. Why is that yeah. That's the that's already good question. And we don't entirely show notice. I think the key is that didn't really leave. A very specific material remains in the same way. The right mr for example so. They didn't have a very specific type of architecture. They didn't necessarily have have so much of that. There are certain things that we can seize. We can't find the systems of bits of straightened sculpture and places for example. But other than that. You don't really get whole scandinavian towns settlements Get any boss. Big buildings sir. What seems to have happened is that we actually have tens maybe hundreds of thousands. We really day quiet night by really substantial population on scandinavian. Settling here but then they become absorbed essentially by integrating into the lungs given sorry quite soon. Probably i refu- generations. We have this intermingling. Old people scandinavians people england or goodland arlanda wherever and. That's really the key that the essentially adapt and just become part of part of the landscapes. They didn't leave anything specific behind. And that's why it's very difficult to really uncover and find out how many of them they were or even themselves as well. It seems like this big will took dig repton indaba share in a moment but even just graves and things. It seems like there's not that many found of it doesn't that we know about that we can confidently Determined our bike is who's going to navy because quite traditionally a lot of great insana will be buried people be buried with things like weapons may be a pseudo will starting at the grave goods jewelry for example but especially when people converted to christianity. That stopped sorry before that point might be buried with visa quite distinctive items but often commission to christianity. You wouldn't be buried with anything. You religiously just at being. You gave as as a skeleton sorry to identify his grades to find out two days that he who had migrated east to be a very difficult thing to do so special about repton darby share that there really is one of very few locations in england where we have not tony written sources to tell us that the vikings have rating. Viking army came then state that but we will have really substantial clinical evidence. Sorry we have lots of fights and we have a lot of graves gripes. I really distinctive really definite scandinavian material. Culture says like for example that the most famous one is a grave at all. The circled racking warrior who is buried with a sword as scandinavian type and also a soul samba around his neck which considers shouts viking at really and we also have Richton records from agla saxon chronicle. Which tell us that. The viking great army that's came to this country eligible in the sixties wintered in rapid in at eight seven three so we got written sources evidence so in that case A description of of their winter camp and excavations starting in the eighties uncovered evidence will We've done more research of like my The same thing now done some new scientific work again backing up that buried there including in a very unusual mass burial under amount which contained the bodies of ninety three hundred people that was all associated with this viking greats army. So this place was. I seriously excavated back in the seventies. And you've obviously worked on their yourself and so in over the years and obviously said we've you know develop things like dna research. What have you. How was an knowledge of this site. Changed for what we assumed. When it was when it was first seriously excavated this quite a few things have changed. And one of the things was this Certainty of whether those people buried there in this mass grave especially really were associated with the great army these vikings because originally some radiocarbon dates were made over the themselves. I should say with some artifacts in the same grave. So they're they're actually coins dating two eight seven two two eight seven five which is exactly the date that the houston chronicle said the vikings with that and this mass grave contained largely mainly men men but mainly men who really big in really seemed to be really really strong already. Total everything that you were kind of expecting of a viking but the radiocarbon dates essentially what wrong so they they were too early. They some of them into the eighth century at seven centuries before the vikings even at such in england. Sorry that seemed to think this grave. The months grave couldn't be the remains of the great tommy like doors so that was one of the things and the other thing was that it was time only kept in repton unequated small camp since we've found another site named by actually Initiatives covered by metal detector tests which we now know a second. I'm slightly larger account. So that the press in the viking presence in in that year and possibly off to its with really quite substantial but with the radiocarbon dates that was part of the work that also took by in the book was something that i was able to reassess using scientific methods because they didn't back in eighteen. But what we do now. Is that when we radiocarbon dates human remains we actually have to take into account the sort of diets. The people had because if you ate a lot of fish than that would actually give you full states. That seem to old. That seemed like like that much earlier than they really were. Because kaban get intuitions cyclists around providing time so knowing that i was able to correct those dates and actually it turned up. All early dates would just from people who lots of fish which possibly not surprising promoted that pasha lives at some of the time so again relative to show you that that was actually completely consistent. A great made this huge big barrel on nearly three hundred people. Could well have been the great tommy. So there's some of the changes that have come about talk about during the are stepping on some people's teeth as well as what that tells us. Yeah so this is fun of the method style. Used a loss in my work which i personally think is really excited to development so this is a way of looking at where somebody corrupts so to get. Some evidence of the geographical origins are gus you about these graves than when we just have a skeleton. You have no grave goods nothing else. You have no way of lowering. Where what sort of culture that person might belong to you but actually we are like walking. Diaries of over lives where we've lived in each in. It's all a part of our bodies. Sorry i grew up in norway for example and when i was a child is eight feet. That regard likely drag loss and milk concern. An all foods and drinks had chemicals that came from the ground from the soil. So if you knew from the water in my environments thirty signatures from those days of soils and things actually at become a part of your binds part of your teeth and that's great for us as eulogists because your teeth will say formed in childhood. They didn't change so not move as it mighty actually carries whippet the chemical signatures from my childhood. I ve essentially got the chemical signatures in my teeth of Of no way my children who grew up in south west england. They've got it with with essentially the local chemical signature here in england. So we cannot. She look at a skeleton evening. Thousand years will take us on look at these chemical signatures in the teeth and then an idea of if they let goal if they've grown up somewhere really cold if the grownups similarly with really old geology. And that way you can stop to look at migration and you can start to identify. Whether some of these people may. In fact be incoming scandinavians. Because i mentioned earlier the the fascinated new technique of dna. But there's a significant problem. We've using dna at least because the people the came before the vikings the angles of the sock said arrow fundamentally the same people. Yes they come from very much. The same places are the southern scandinavians are essentially the same people's so i'm only talking about maybe hundred a hundred years. Are you fill up there. Which isn't enough for there to be changes genetic changes i mean if we were talking about two thousand years or something like that maybe we could see genetic changes because ready to talking a few hundred years delay. At the moment i mean. Hopefully this change should be years time with listening but at the moment you can't really tell apart somebody migrations from northern germany. Also the denmark into england in say yet six hundred to somebody who came in eight seven three from southern denmark. Will something like that because the genetic signatures will be exactly the same and that's a big problem ring and that's why we haven't quite been able to work a couch. Even having taken as opposed to lots of dna work or modern relationship Just haven't been able to untangle various migrations from the viking age and that is a really big problem so this great army so-called greater me. Let's talk about why they were why they were the country in the first place. Yes they great salt me. I hear about in houston chronicle in the eight six five. That would this be lots of i should say. There's been lots of vikings at biking attacks viking raids before that's added festivals. We never about her in the late eighth century on monday to continue but they seem at least according to the his records to be cut a payton run rates. Really savarese who come. I regret what you won't get back again. But then something changes from The middle of the nineteenth century and they start to the winter and then at six five. The chronicle says that aint great army. Oh great heathen army arrived on over the next decade or site. We hear about all the movements of this great tommy around england. And it's clear that this really is a is a conic steph. Upper the vikings Is no longer just hated. Monterey did not just looking at Grabbing some valuables for me or anything that does this is actually about political conquest. And eventually also settlements. We got people reminding because they want to stay. They want to take over the kingdoms that make up the country. So that's what happens on we hear how with different success they started. Find leah Notice to your york and eventually in the year. Eight seven three. That's when they had correct on the race money do that as because that's tees the kingdom a mess yet which at the time they didn't have control over but thanks very much wanted and repton was essentially the the sort of jewel in the crown. Really operas here. So this was a very wealthy monastery there and it was Have royal estate Essentially by by going in that and taking repton they would making a very very significant political statements and by during site actually managed to to essentially chase that muscian king he went to excellent perez and came back and i took the kingdom on essentially concrete. All the land. According to the chronicle. I bet at the beginning. The book is code. River kings darvish day could be further from the see if it tried. Let's talk about that significant about the size of rented yes so repton is located essentially by what was going to be like mightily at the time which trent on the trend splice. Rice up to two rats Now but if you fly if he tries to corruption on an up note of you will come all the way up to the humbug. I'm from the humboldt. You can go straight into the trente environments. Never after is quite quiet so it's not really that wise but we know that in the ninth century. There was a lot more water in the river. And in fact you could get you could sail interrupt and really rather easily so this was a really vital. Part of of the travelling. Part of the success of the vikings was the fact that they combined essentially boats and ships with based movement. So the fact that. I get that bali the river as well as i ve lamb was really one of the key reasons. I think why they were there and that was really what to the touch river really because enemy realized that. Not just in repton. But this whole janet fact that the the entire beads out travel have remainder. It's all down to the remains and a big part of the success of the vikings at the time was the fact that they could control movements. Almost rivers you talk about another sign sort of wintering camp. A place talks. Which is at the confluence of the of the trenton the khomba. Let's talk about what this place might have been like. Yes that was the basic camp from the year before so before the gresh army arrived in upton. They spent a winter at talks aimed at the moment. If you can't really see very much in fact this Nightside again. As i said at the beginning there's evidence is no physical buildings his no remains and it looks just like a little hill with sheep on on some power stations and obsolete narrow that you would imagine was anything of significance but again the trend is that the trumps Is quite fast. Flooring is very close to the humber and at the time it would actually have been such a water there that the site itself would have been a bit like in ireland. So would it be quite safe and if you come in with lots of birds that's a brilliant place to spend them into what they do in these camps as they possibly they wait for better weather which sounds a bit festival but it as a good reason because if you fool so several thousand people in you gotta meet them partiality land than muddying whether it's not great but they also need to stock the need to repair. They weapons senator repair ships. Then you to make sure that they know what they were doing. So that's what. I would have taken place at talk seed and the reason why we nari that while we've been able to find out is actually all through metal detected fines are it's retaliation artifacts that we nine or associated with the vikings. Neither awhile back. We didn't know that these with the signatures of the great army. But now that we do we've been able to use objects to essentially track them all the way around the country Yellow little atoms denny. Today i'm talking a cat german and we're talking about her book. River kings a new history of the vikings from scandinavia to the silk roads and looking out towards the silk road. It's now cat towards the introduced. The idea of trade a movement will eventually come back to this bead and how it might have ended up an cold darbyshire grave first of all. I wanna talk about the significance of silva to vikings site silva in fact as been claimed the manager be more or less the driving fools of the entire viking age and i think a lot to be such that because we know that still became hugely popular in a viking edge before that before the viking age. There's quite as much of it around in scandinavia. This mainly gold was far more popular but then suddenly for some reason. And i think it's part of pot supply in parts demands. We start to see this huge interest in this mass to unpack. The reason for that is because silva is coming in in really very large from the east from silva minds in the east. And that's something that we re finding more and more In this country in england by looking at some of these metal detectors fines one of the key types of artifacts that we see silva dem- coins so these islamic coins that happening imported from the middle east. Threes biking traits. That will took more. I'm sure passing movements and they are really high quality silver and the the vikings love because they were being used not payments but actually to be melted down at into other things meltdown as payments. And then eventually turn into your jewelry. Who have a arm rings a meal seeing them. As viking age it goes on in really quite loss quantities. Which is really quite spectacular. Day at least to begin with they're not using currency. They're not using coins. But the the viking economy is weight based what do we by the yes not really strike. Be making their own coins into march towards the end of the moisture in scandinavia. Some olympic mccoy news in england. But really it's thoughts. We call a boolean economy. So that as using selva boy white so you would take a piece of silver new ways. House sutton set amount. And that's what you use where your payments and we know that because we can find a scale so weighing scales at these sites trading weights and these also really remarkable. They're just small things but they are set to very specific weight. Standard to me. Find the best standardized across the biking and we'll even more interesting is that they are actually. They are based on weight standards. That come from the islamic world that linked to the actual weight these islamic coins these theorems and that's essentially becomes one of the main payment methods that she spurs I'm not trading sites in england that's of benefits because for example phone thing does not really controlling that currency does ni- king ruler issuing the coins. And you can use it wherever you guys. So they'll be recognized so by you can check if it's purely could check ways. If trading in the west is bringing in trading higher trading in the east all across these different landscapes in culture gasol common currency. That can be used everywhere. You travel which is very convenient occur the saying in a museum the alm rings. The elaborately carved jewelry is what it looks like that they would wear on their arms and in this book a picture of a huge pile of them and i was fascinated to discover that this was specifically form of currency as well. So they're not justice full for requirements would aggression or whatever but they are actually wearable currency. So you can get paid in an arm ring. If you're taking part in raider was ever a you may be paid in that. Tom ring and then quite conveniently if you if you need to custody software to pay for something. That's what you can do as well. So they are on one hundred you re but actually they are directly used as currency we call this. Hack silver when we get these little bits. Nail fragments of other types of jewelry are. If you're wearing a lot of the is also way showing you in a very literal. Why not just like we would buy wariness expensive. What was something like that. But you're actually literally wearing that silver wearing that wealth on your arm. Let's talk a bit more than again about who the vikings actually were in terms of sort of migration patterns and we talked to bow anglo saxons angles saxons. The vikings were roughly from the same geographic area. So anyways there's a lot of cost saver but when you look scandinavian people from that time it also seems like there is dna coming from other places from britain from ireland where some some of that is quite a new discovery because each they were quite sort of isolated. I guess as peoples would have had the sentence that's gonna name as well vibrant staying especially for the north shops in london in new way while worry much just as effective study population. I guess but obviously with the viking offers made me going outwards so we know that there are some some very common cultural traits. The ten viking is controversial and in many ways. He's not actually that helpful because it wasn't really that they used about themselves that the wood was used but they wouldn't say what king on his part in norway sweden denmark didn't exist in the same format. They do now until right towards the end of that. The viking age. But that's something about less than coach about language awful barrier forms that is definitely joint. That's essentially what we referring to as king but i must stop moving out with this phone migrating. They do take a lot of that with them but as we were saying earlier they quite quickly become essentially absorbed in other cultures as well which is again. What's really sorry difficult that one the things that ultimately irish such have been very interested in as is trying to look at diversity within thirty scandinavian viking populations if you like so just to see if they really wear that suit ecstatic and one of the big surprises. That has come in these studies. Is that this quite evident so people from the outside coming back into scandinavia. Sorry just got names going woods but actually you have the other ways as well. Which really i've been to my mysocialsecurity was just mine will come as such a big surprise because we know there's lots of change exchange of ideas people going back and forth but actually to have this evidence genetic evidence that people are coming from the outside to sexual in scandinavia is is really quite exciting. So do we think these are people that would have been coming to settle in scandinavia because that might be a nice place to central to try look are are we talking about people that take their against the will i think we we do definitely get lots of people who come. Because they're involved in trade. Some of them might be involved in a crop production as well. Sorry if you're on an area we'll see a lot of pottery from the slavic areas So he's sutherland said based in parts of the baltic coming into scandinavia making poultry certain types of skills. That are very much in demand Today's reasons some will be lions as well so you will have families near families. Perhaps someone he's He's traveled To indian on somebody will get married. Another will bring a part of that family back to the canadian on so there so required question is peaceful pause but we do know that the vikings were very heavily involved in the slave trade. So it's likely that some of these people who came back where actually am slave people so that people taking against will Being brought back again. Ms another invisible. In fact we didn't really so difficult. Deprave somebody was enslaved in the past because the physical evidence on their bodies the snyder wrestles to really tell you he is people were. But that's definitely another possible interpretation of some of the ice genetics results. He said the term. Vikings itself is is a little bit contested and indeed. They would never have called themselves. That is also as you say in the book. A word that is gendered it. Viking fundamentally means a man and we've often had in the past an image of viking women staying at home looking after the homestead while the men sailed off to rape and plunder places but a couple of fines that have been made relatively recently started to change that idea so first of all Talk about the warrior. Woman of burqa. Yes this was something that became a bit of a sensation all of the well just a few years ago. It was a case of a viking grave from sweden from this site could bake which was one of the largest towns is Is a high of this warrior elites as well. They had this amazing at grades. One of the riches of those graves. The chamber grave contains a body a single body with a full set of weapons of not On a soda at an accident on plus two wholesomeness of individuals Is very rich grave. Always interpreted to be a very significant rare was placed in really prominent position as well in the town and then they're quite unexpectedly almost when everyone thought that this says it archetypal warrior a near study a dna analysis of this or the revealed that rather than being mailed. This was actually a genetically a female skeleton so he thought of course became a huge incidence. And so you have this female warrior from the past and that in many ways was something that people were extremely happy to see another word north and others were questioning interpretation but for Actually i think a hundred years this but it is grave was interpreted to everybody important significant oria and all of a sudden we had to deal with. What if it wasn't a man austral which is quite interesting when we talked about the traverse in rivers in the first half. I deliberately didn't get too much into actual viking ships. Because i wanted to talk about a particular one which is the oseberg ship which was a grave fines. Told me something about that. Yes bad shape really. Well my personal opinion. At least it's the most visa fool unspectacular. Viking ship that we've ever excavated is one of complete ones is currently in vivo kingship at night and when it was excavated it was sorry while preserved because he was buried in clay. Which is grateful. Preserving would complete with carvings old way alongside of that but he was also in the ground because it was a grave so it was. Somebody's burial on that again. One of the traditions. That were quite common in the viking age and it came with also the grave goods as a very large number of animals including horses and all sorts of equipment that the dead would have needed to take with them to the off. Life inside the spero. We're actually tear individuals and turns out thought. First of them were women. Sorry of two of them. One older one younger woman buried side by side in the chamber in the spirit ship. It just quite staggering. Their finest and best example on the richest grain from the viking entire viking weld belong to amount to women and finally on the vikings. Let's go back to that. Beads and by the end of the book traced it all the way back to her to india. How do we think it would have ended up in a cold shit grave part of these trading networks that we see really beginning in the viking age so the site much travel requests alway got especially oklahoma As i mentioned across to scandinavia and the other thing we see happening right at the start of the viking. Age is the appearance of trading towns. The begins. We don't really have towns sunday cities but really it's a small smaller farmsteads and villages and sarah but at the beginning of the biking age we get these trading nodes. They're all very closely connected that situated along the their baltic states the fringes of the baltic sea and also certain on the north's team for the rest of the english channel as well and that's really where a lot of these kids are coming back and forth and they're really what's connecting places like britain is the navy and then across the baltic as well. We start seeing them. Essentially popping up all over price customers take and then crucially for the perspective of my book down rivers of eastern europe. Are you get these rivers that guy. Essentially all the way from the baltic to the black sea and the further east along that way we get these trading towns in these settlements. And that's exactly what those goods could mean that. We have that selva that i mentioned earlier. The steelers coming from the middle east. That's maybe north and other things are moving south and that can be things like i. Other goods that are very popular from scandinavia from sort of inland is near while we know that slaves are being traded down the rivers and the silva gains are coming back in return. Just one more thing. We'd be talking about vikings. This is a book about vikings. You're an expert on vikings from scandinavia. And what. I was reading the intro. At the beginning one thing stuck out like a sore thumb which is rapanui then of course. It occurred to me the vikings and the people of rapanui above societies. That success was entirely connected to that. Their mastery of of traverse in the ocean. Did you find this other obvious similarities. As a really good question that i think definitely start talking about the same time period. Does all two degrees that are around about the turn of the millennium vets. I think we have people who are living in quite quite extreme environments because if you look at the geography of especially scandinavia for new cats iceland's and greenland's or other parts of the world with the vikings these are really quite difficult places to get to and you have to be really adopted. You have to just use what you can use by. If you're going to survive in greenland for example to be able to use the resources to out there. And i think that's exactly the same pony revenue as well. Because your on a little island that's many thousands of miles from the nearest landmass just and guests at the goodson of the resources you have to really adopt and you have to be really really good at that so you need to be able to work. Have to get fared a unique workout. How to use the soils and the resources on map near weiner. That was really difficult. That's too many degrees going to be the same in a place like greenland or possibly even iceland as well. I think that adaptability is really crucial to both of them but also part of the culture Near the verse. Famous thing is obviously the big star statues and they've got to do with various ways of organizing society. They've got to do with with beliefs religion and essentially societal organization. And i think that's also the case in what's in the viking world so again they they've got ways of expressing their religious beliefs on adopting. So you got some definite parallels that obviously incomplete in different environments. So i took it to german. We'll be talking about her. Grivas kings a new history of the vikings from scandinavia to the silk roads. Which is in the uk from william collins. Thank you so much for taking the time to share it with me. I to me this episode of little atoms whose produced and presented by me nail denny edited by sky redmond and was first broadcast on one thousand. Four point four fan. Little atoms is supported by eight nine up and hosted by cast. If you enjoyed the show please do subscribe on i tunes and even tell a friend thank soliciting.

vikings england scandinavia Aradio darbyshire silva goodland arlanda insana repton darby Viking army agla saxon chronicle viking great army viking greats army kaban denmark savarese heathen army india River kings darvish
What we get wrong when we talk about Asia

The Big Story

23:39 min | 2 years ago

What we get wrong when we talk about Asia

"I am and many of you probably are too guilty of not knowing enough about Asia. I don't mean Asian geography, or it's languages or the culture or the customs of the people who live there though. Maybe that to know. I mean, I am guilty of exactly what I just did of treating Asia as a monolith and often, of course, acquainting the am visions of Asia with the MVP of China that is especially easy to do right now in Canada because the past few months have found our foreign policy torn between the United States and China in the case of a detained executive from telecom giant, alway, we also told you a story a couple of months ago on this very podcast about the fennel crisis. And where that sentinel is coming from and how Chinese criminals launder their money in Vancouver's housing market. And since there's not a lot of room for depth when it comes to countries on the other side of the world, China becomes shorthand for Asia. And we really couldn't be more wrong about that today. We'll tell you why. And we'll tell you why understanding Asia really understanding it is critical to understanding the future of the world. I'm Jordan heath Rawlings. And this is the big story. Parague Khanna is a noted academic the author of several books is in extremely well travelled world citizen. His most recent book is titled appropriately enough the future is Asian prog. What do we get wrong over here? When we talk about Asia a lot. Yeah. Yes. Geography, right. The most basing Asia is nothing more than a geographic descriptors, but it captures a very large swath of the planet earth. I mean, the entire eastern two thirds of the Eurasian landmass incontinent are Asia and about four and a half billion people live in Asia. Now, of course, whatever you've been getting wrong. Well, the last fifteen years of books about Asia have actually been books about China right with a page or two for everyone else. So I'm out to correct that obviously now China is a large percentage of this book too. But I put it in context. China is not some island floating above the rest of the world. It's deeply embedded in eight. Asia. It represents only a third of Asia's population. I mean, we look at China were like, wow, world's most populous country. Oh my goodness. Billions of Chinese. That's only one third of the population of Asia. Right. Very soon. India will have more people than China. India also has a faster growth rate than China southeast Asia has faster growth rates and some countries southeast Asia has gets more foreign investment than China does and on and on and on and on. So why have the past fifteen years focused so much on China? Then it's not that they've been wrong to they've just been wrong to conflict China with all of Asia. I mean, the rest of Asia and Asians have their own identities. In fact, that four thousand years of civilizations that have by and large been more powerful than China's been historically as significant have defeated and conquered China and so forth. And so today, we have the like a historical view where China has attorney been the center of the universe, and you know, plans on nothing less than returning to its rightful places center of the universe. As if no one else exists that doesn't. Exactly comport with history in which again, you have a multi civilizational landscape these other cultures and empires exist, their powerful, they have a long history of containing of outmanoeuvring, China, even China, depending on them as much as they depend on China, and we ignore all of that. And the other reason I mean, let's not just focus on the past. But looking at the future, again, these other countries are growing faster, they're easier places to do business. So if you're Canadian company or Canadian, you know, start up app, developer, whatever the case may be. And you're looking to answer the question, where do I go in Asia to launch my business to settle for a while and so forth chances are you're not going to go to China in the next ten years the way you would have in the last ten years. How do you talk about such a huge broad region in terms of looking towards the future without kind of focusing on the big cats like China India, and how how do you make those distinctions or are there things that you can look at that are? Are happening all across the region that you can kind of predict where they're going for. Sure. Those those are great questions. It's really two questions. I mean, first of all it's not about ignoring, right? The big cats. It's putting them in context. So like, I said in this book, you'll read lots about China, you'll read lots about India as much or more than you need to know. And I'm not going to ignore those countries and say, no, the real Asian story is like, you know, Thailand or Malaysia Indonesia that would be pretty disingenuous. Right. Because that would also be very partial picture, it has to be a holistic picture because again, the next big misperception that we have had about Asia. All this time is that these are is located economic islands. But the reason China is China the economic superpower that it is is because Japan got there, first and Korea got there first and the, hyper modern, Japan and Korea and Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore invested in China, they made China what it is today and China is grateful to those countries for making it what it is today, only we. Look at China from the outside from the west from thousands of miles away and act like it was some kind of virgin birth. Right. It wasn't China owes its success to those countries. And now those next wave of countries I've been talking about that are younger and faster growing like India, and Indonesia and the Philippines. It's Chinese money and Japanese money and Korean money, that's helping them. So in other words, Asia is a really integrated system, right? And we don't view it that we all China over here in India or here, and they probably hate each other the way the Chinese hate, the Japanese. I just gave you some facts that more or less very strongly. Disabuse that notion that all we're looking at is these discreet, ancient empires at hit each other. Right. They are the reason that the others have benefited and grown and they've grown it together. How much does the rise or will the rise to Asia as a mega region as the global dominant force b because of the growth, you just talked about in the the connective you just talked about and. How much of it will be the sort of opposite fracturing of the western Europe? Because it seems like it seems like it's a total escalator. And so we would want to say that this is an own-goal. And if it weren't for the dysfunctionality of the west today, you know, Asia would not have risen as fast, but I want to air on the exact opposite side, just so it's absolutely clear that we ascribe to them the credit the agency that and the intelligence and the knowledge that they are do. So I'm going to answer your question by saying it's one hundred percent zero percent interest. And even if Donald Trump had never been elected. And even if there were no dysfunctionality, and even if the transatlantic alliance were still strong pretty much every single thing you see happening in Asia would still be happening because it has much more to do with the cops of the Soviet Union in nineteen Ninety-one and the rediscovery of the ancient silk roads of complimentarities of trade partnerships across this vast Asian geography, and that was going to happen anyway. Right. And since that time all of the integration of trae. Raid and the Belton road initiative and all of these things which the trillions of dollars of of combined infrastructure investment to rebuild these soak roads, that's not something the west could stop would stop should stop or can stop right. Yeah. So let's let's err on the side of looking at them from their point of view and looking what they've done and not view everything that the rest of the world does is somehow a response to us. Let me give you an example America first. Right. Trump's. So I begin the book by saying we're so used to seeing hearing this phrase America first, but America, I is actually a response to Asia. I is your first hasn't Asians haven't been saying Asia. I, but Asians have been practicing Asia. I for thirty years and Trump is the guy who said, I'm kind of fed up with Asian stealing, our technology, our jobs and so forth. He's not really right about that per se. But he definitely got sick of Americans losing if you will to Asians who are winning. And so he came up with America first. So I wanna be clear again, Asians working. To do in are doing whatever they want. No matter what we do. What is the biggest key to the growth of those industries on the other side of the world? I think in your book, you talk specifically about technology. Yeah. So this would be an area where you might say. Well, if it were not for western technology. There's no way that you know, Asia would've or the China in particular would have risen, okay? But you'd have to go back again seventy years to Japan say, well, how did Japan becomes such an industrial juggernaut such as it did. Of course, it acquired borrowed stole you might even say, but certainly invented as well critical technologies that helped its electron IX industries automobile industry, and so forth, and those, of course, become world leaders, but it was ever thus in history. America wouldn't be superpower were not for import substitution policies of the of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Right. So everyone's always there's a global circulation of knowledge the question is who does something with it to rise as a power or set of powers, and that's what Asia has done. So but now. Though, let's be clear again in the very current context of this trade war, the United States is massively. Overestimated the extent to which Asia in general and China in particular, depend on its technologies. There are companies that had contracts long term contracts with very very sophisticated American companies like Qualcomm or Intel chip makers, and that was good for those companies for their revenues, and it was good for the Chinese hen said and telecom equipment companies because they were getting really good chips. But does that mean does it follow from that that only America makes semiconductors? No. Yep. Because guess what China's going to do. Now in all of those companies, they're going to start buying those chips from Japan from South Korea from Taiwan and not buying them from merica. So the trade war is only exceleron Bing is further integrating internally and substituting for America. And this is absolutely awful for some of the world's most valuable American high-tech companies from an Asian perspective. What does Canada's position look like because we've talked especially recently, and yes, it's mostly due to China and the arrest of the wa executive about being caught between America creasing, -ly insular America, and a rising China and Asia, and it seems to us like a really tough position to be in for our government. Now, there are some tactical issues where obviously you're caught in a bilateral dispute. And obviously the arrest of the hallway executive is one of them, you know, and that's kind of almost a binary choice. Either you give her up and have extra to the US or you give her up and send her back to China and some of the outcome of that will depend on a whole bunch of other things going on like the negotiations in Beijing right now between the US and try to over the trade wars. So, you know, obviously, you're a price taker you might say in that situation, but that should not that micro episode should not be confused with Canada's place on earth. Right. I mean, you know, for example, obviously, Canada has been very wise to join the. The teepee trade agreement which is now the p trade agreement and Mexico as well. Whereas America didn't. So you stood up. And you said we're not gonna follow America's lead in retrenching from the huge trade opportunities with these Asian markets outside of China. Instead, we're going to be aggressively in embrace that agreement and you did and Mexico did as well. Now, it's really telling because Canada has proportionately the same deficit to China that the United States does right about two-thirds deficit, you know, vis-a-vis China, but still you're not scared. You're not sure king away. You know, your solution is let's innovate. Let's diversify. Let's push for more more more market access. You know, let's work with these other Asian countries and already the data. So quickly suggested that Canada, and Mexico, and Japan, and Australia were very wise, and smart, and are benefiting at America's expense from joining that trade agreement, which of course, ironically, America created in the first place and chose not to join. So that's another. Sample Candida, Ken, in fact, do its own thing. It can have its own agency. You can diversify of. So there's there's lots of things that that can can do to assert, you know, its own national interest economic interests atonomy, and in some of those areas, you're already doing it. How does the Asian is Asian of nearby western locations, like Australia or Vancouver is the one that we obviously want to talk about affect the relationship between those countries and the rest of the continent. You know, it's it's actually more of a two way street than people think, you know, one things. Well, you know Chinese people are coming here. They're going to be a fifth column or assert Chinese interests and so forth, but I talked to ordinary Canadians like you do and they say, you know, what once you know. Even a first generation definitely second-generation person comes from trying to end Caucasian Canadian. We'll tell me this. Oh, they're they're more Canadian than I am. And I'm an Indian-born immigrant to the United States. I'm more American than Americans right in some way. And that's the immigrant experience. And we shouldn't pretend that doesn't exist in the case of Chinese it, obviously does. And of course, most of them as you well know are running away from China right there. They want to hide their money from China. They want, you know, safe place for their children to grow up. You know, they aren't ordinary human beings. Just like everyone else and they're becoming ordinary Canadians. So Canada's benefited massively let's face it. Whether it is real estate investments, education sector energy exports. You know with the two-way street with Asia has been very very good for Canada. And thankfully, you have a holistic accounting of this. You think about this broadly? You don't think about it is euro some now around south south of the border, you know, they kind of do and that's going to be their loss. Right. So so always have that holistic view. It's not just trade. It's also investment, right? And I think that's a healthy way to look at it. While the rest of the west kind of has struggled with the rise of populist leaders. I only really know of a couple in. In Asia tops is populism seeing a renewed foothold there. The same way it is and the rest of the world. Well, I mean populism. We talk about it again in our English language. Western press, particularly the US and the UK as if it's a global phenomenon it's not the kind of clueless virulent self destructive backwards looking fill in a few more adjectives here populism that we see in America and Britain are really just American Britain. And I wanna be clear that I've written about Canada. And I say that Canada is a lot more like western Europe than it is like the United States. You know? I mean, you've got family day as a holiday like that's gonna happen in America. You know, it's very western European though. That's for sure. So again, the west is not one unified thing. Thank god. I also grew up in Germany. I mean, no, German whatever trade life in Germany for life in America, when I'm in German, I'm sort of treated like a German, and you know, that also reminds you that the immigrant experience is not all sort of xenophobia for people from Asia. You know, you can fit in these societies as well. If you if you work hard, and it's the same as, you know, one expects of America and a lot of cases. So again, there is no unity, you know, sort of to the west at all so in Asia populism. You know, the word we just throw it around like MO the prime prime minister mode. The of India's a populous leader and detail. The president Philippines is a populist leader. I I'll their democratically elected leaders, and I don't wanna say populace, they're very popular. I'll tell you that right. Yeah. They're the two most popular leaders in the world right now really wanna know that justified right? Take whatever survey you want take a foreign survey. Just to be sure it's objective, right though. They are the two most popular leaders in the world. So let's not just call them like illiberal populace, strong and thugs. Those are democracies Asia by the is full of democracies there. More people living in democracies in Asia than the rest of the world. That's one point seven billion people going back to your very first question. You get wrong. Well, Asia's, obviously, not just a monolithic authoritarian Chinese force from the east and gulping the world. They're more people in democracies in Asia than in authority -tarian regimes. We could start with getting that. Right. What about ten twenty years down the line? When Asia is sort of in the terms you lay on your book, the dominant geopolitical mega region. What do they do with that newfound, weight and power? They're already doing a lot with it. But I want to be clear that for me the rise of Asia does not mean the decline of everyone else. Yeah. You can choose to decline you can choose to retreat you can choose to be bought out and run over. But that's not necessary. It would be your own fault. What I'm saying is that Asia's taking its rightful place commensurate with its history with its present demographic size with president economic weight. It makes sense that the world ought to be multi-polar. And it is multi-polar like it or not historically actually multi-polarity is not a bad thing. And in a way, I think what's happening today is so unprecedented. To have a globally distributed system. You know of power where North America's still very powerful Europe is still very important Asia's multiple, great powers. We've never lived in that world before all at the same time. All of these is more balanced if that happens, so it's a big debate in theory, in international relations theory among my kind of academic colleagues, and because the history that they tend to make their judgments on is a narrow European history. They can be pessimistic, right? But we don't again, we do not have a global precedent for this global era. And therefore, I think that those instances of European history in those kind of theoretical models that are based on a eurocentric view are basically useless. So what I do in the book is kind of reconstruct Asian history. And I say, well, actually, if you want to predict Asia's future, why not look at Asia's past rather than Europe's past and that kind of gives you a more optimistic picture where things are going and then to your question about how are they gonna use this weight? They already are. Right. I mean, that's why I've trapped on the African the Asian ization of Africa. It's the return of afro Eurasia, which is not a term that you know, listeners might be familiar with. But story ins historians have been using this term for a long time. Afro Eurasia, it contains Africa Europe and Asia, these three regions of the world continents had intense trade relations along the silk roads, and maritime trade networks across the Indian Ocean for many many centuries. It's only in the past five hundred years that that was ruptured or cut off because of colonialism and the fracturing of Asia. So in historians talk about the future, they say, it's the return of afro Eurasia, not that it's rising for the first time. So I write about that. I write about the Asian ization of Latin America. Now, let's bear in mind. The greatest barrier on the planet earth to regular contact between human beings is the Pacific Ocean. And despite that every single South American country has China now is it's number one trading partner and the fastest growing trading partner for the important countries. In South America is in. Which is even further away, then China has. So in other words, distance has really shrunk connective is paramount every part of the world can freely trade and interact and form relationships and alliances, and do you know investments and transactions with anyone else they want anytime they want and there's no one power at the center, and that's again with a truly multi-polar world looks like so Asia is already again asserting itself, you might say, but it's also welcome around the world, right Europe likes foreign investment, Silicon Valley loves Asian talent. What would forty percent of the startups in Silicon Valley be if it weren't for Indians and Chinese and I know by the way that there's hundreds of Canadians who are not acknowledged as well and one. One of those. We're trying to position ourselves right now as silicon north I believe, you know, my view is about the fusion of civilizations. The syncretism I probably use that word syncretism like too much in this book. Right. But I see nothing but the positive benefits of that syncretism. I also see a lot of downsides. I write about them. You may have China or other powers trying to apprehend they're bad guys on your streets. I know that's a bad thing. You might have INTERPOL. Ding manipulated issue. Read notices to capture enemies of the state by Russia around up. That's not a good thing. I can cite all the bad things and all the good things to unbalance. The rise of Asia is still very very good for all of us one last question because we've talked about basically everything that I didn't know about Asia. Why do you think so many of us, and you know, I'm not I'm not the smartest person around. But we do this podcast every day. We read a lot of news we consume a lot of what's going on in in the global media. Why do you think so many people don't understand? This. You mean you consume a lot in the English language media? Correct. Cached by people who hail from Great Britain, the United States or Canada. People on TV too. There you go. Well, I think you have your answer. You know, the fact is that we don't even understand western Europe. Very well as came up just earlier as we were talking about it. I mean, you know, because they don't waste their time defending themselves against our euro cynicism in the English language, but Germans and French don't really give damn what we think about them. They're busy also trying to you know, stay afloat and build their own future. And let alone Asians. Right. I mean, how much time do you or anyone else? Spend reading news in Mandarin or Hindi or even translating news out of those languages. So the the the simple answer is we live in giant filter bubbles, right? You've got your Kadian filter bubble in your North American filter bubble. The Brits, certainly have their Brexit bubble which is only going to get more cut off from other bubbles and Asians have their bubbles to you know, I just want to say that one of the reasons I wrote this book was not just for westerners to understand Asia. Because that I think alone is a noble enough purpose, but obvious. He is an American I'm writing for a western audience. But this is the first book that I explicitly also wrote for Asians to understand Asians, because they're five billion Asians, twelve major civilizational clusters, they know very little about each other. Because they haven't had those silk roads at five hundred years. And so I want the Indians reading this to get to know China better. I want the Japanese reading it to know Kazahkstan better. I want the Russians reading it to know Indonesians better there, lots of permutations and combinations of Asians. And I really also intended for them to have a one stop guide to understanding what's happening in their immediate neighbours fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Parag Khanna author of many books, including his most recent the future is Asian get it now wherever you get them. That was the big story for more from us. We are as always at the big story, podcast dot CA. But we are not alone. We have brother and sister podcasts at frequency podcast network dot com. And this week that includes the launch of the second season of the quick and the dirty. Their first episode is about bondage. I can't listen to it without blushing. It us up on Twitter at the big story. F P N an app frequency pods on Twitter on Facebook and on Instagram, and you know, it we're wherever you get podcasts. We would love a rating or review whether that's apple Google, Stitcher. Spotify we dog that's not actually a podcast app. But it could be I'm Jordan heath Rowlings. Claire bizarre is our lead producer. Brian Clark is our associate producer, and Eliza Nielsen is our digital editor. Stephanie Phillips is our research assistant slash chase producer flash. Everything else you need. Thanks for listening. We'll talk on Monday.

Asia Taiwan America Canada United States Europe China India Japan China India Asia Vancouver executive Parague Khanna Jordan heath Rawlings Philippines South Korea Parag Khanna South America
Why Quibi Shut Down

WSJ Tech News Briefing

11:04 min | 6 months ago

Why Quibi Shut Down

"This election absolute is reminding every american to prioritize voting over everything else. Yes even drinking alcohol so whatever you do vote i drink second remember. Your vote has the power to shake or stir. The election make count absolute drink responsibly vote responsibly. This is tech news briefing friday november six. I'm middle while in for the wall street journal the short form video streaming service qube launched in april with a star studded lineup of shows with big names on board like chance the rapper and chrissy teigen and over a billion dollars worth of investments from almost every major media company. Quickly position itself as the future of hollywood but in the end it just couldn't compete in the crowded streaming video landscape a couple of weeks ago just months after it launched could be announced that it would be shutting down a reporter. Benjamin mullen will join us to discuss what happened. After these headlines tech companies have been working to remove misinformation from their platforms in the confusion around the election. There's something we've been following on the show yesterday. Facebook took down a group on its platform called stop the steel which had been organizing protests. Vote counts around the country organizer of the group alleged that the national election has been marred by widespread voter fraud while president trump has made the same claim fact. Checkers and news organizations have found no support for it stop. The steel had grown to more than three hundred sixty thousand members in less than twenty four hours and removing. The group is one of these books. Most aggressive moves yet. Police online activity over election results. A spokesperson for facebook says its decision was in line with stepped up measures. The company is taking during this period. Meanwhile twitter suspended several accounts that were posing as us news organizations to falsely and prematurely declare election results the accounts mimics logos account names of the associated press. And at least one instance cnn. Some of the accounts reviewed by the journal used the same photos and similar profile. Names and in some cases tweeted information in rapid succession indicating that the activity was coordinated across the accounts are put her destined volts. Says we should be on the alert for more disinformation like this. As votes are tallied and results are certified people on both sides of the aisle. We're going to be vulnerable to disinformation trying to consume the news and looking for you know the possibility that their candidate might be able to either hold onto their lead or clawback from behind and that just creates a perfect environment for any number of bad actors whether it's a foreign government or someone who's operating alone and trying to create chaos win. People are high stress and worried and anxious about what's going to happen to the country. That's when when we're all most vulnerable to this type of this type of attack also. Yesterday the justice department filed an antitrust lawsuit that seeks to block visas five point three billion dollar deal to acquire the fintech company plaid which powers money transfer apps like ben now the doj says the acquisition eliminate the nissan but still significant competitive threat that plaid poses to ease up and that it would allow visa to legally maintain monopoly online debit leading to higher prices and less innovation visa said the lawsuit was quote legally flawed and that it would vigorously defend the oh plaid declined to comment speaking of doj more than a billion dollars worth of digital currencies. This week that were associated with the online drugs. Bazaar silk road. It's the largest seizure of crypto currency and the justice department's history. The bitcoins had once belonged to silk roads founder but had been stolen by a hacker in bitcoin wallet untouched for years or a coming up after the break the not quite rise and swift fall of qube extra added scaling up access to new cove. Nineteen test to help us. Get back to our lives with confidence. Another life changing technology from habit. So you don't wait for life. You live learn more at abbott dot com abbott life to the fullest quick launched in april as a place for quick bites of content meant for all year in between moments and executives sold. The service as the future of entertainment is supposed to revolutionize hollywood but at the end of october after six months in operation. Qube was shut down. Now it's a cautionary tale for new entrance into the increasingly crowded field of streaming. Video are benjamin mullen has been following since the beginning and he joins me now to discuss then things joining me. Hey amanda thanks so much for having me so ben. We actually spoke with you on the podcast. One qube i launched. Can you just remind us what this company's pitch wives back. Then yes they're big pitch was premium short-form entertainment movies and shows told in five to ten minute chapters streamed over your phone and of course a big part of that was the technology they used. Yes so they had this technology called turnstile that adjusted the video horizontally vertically depending on the way you held your phone and this technology they said was one of the keys to the services eventual popularity and. This was a company with of hype around. Why was there so much excitement around. Kirby i mean almost everyone in hollywood bought into this idea. All of the major movie studios including disney sony and nbc universal invested in the company. The company raised one point seven. Five billion dollars which is more than any startup. i've ever covered in the media sector and not only that but there were two big personalities. Jeffrey katzenberg the former chief of the walt disney studios division. Who was responsible for. Shepherding hits like the lion king and the little mermaid he was the founder and the chief executive was meg whitman. Who was a former gubernatorial candidate in california and was also the ceo of ebay and hewlett packard so there was all this momentum but just before quimby was slated to launch in april. The pandemic started to take hold in the us. The company decided to go ahead and launch any way. How did they think through that. Well when qube was deciding whether or not to launch they looked at some of the success that major streaming companies were having like netflix like disney to a certain extent like hulu and saw that tv viewership was going through the roof streaming subscribers seemed to be increasing at a lot of these companies. And not only that but they had a lot of fixed costs that they were going to have to continue paying regardless of what happened whether they launched or not so from their perspective. It was worth taking a chance on launching during the pandemic to capture that upside when either way they were going to incur costs. Ben we know how the story ends. The company eventually was shuttered. But i wonder if you could just walk us. Through some of the biggest problems over the last six months that led to eventual downfall. They had a ton of problems. They had a lawsuit this video. Technology company called. Eco sued them over turnstile. The technology we discussed earlier and they've been fighting that battle in the courts for the better part of a year. Now not only that. But they didn't get the number of subscribers they were looking for. They were hoping to get around. Seven point four million subscribers within the first year of the services launch and when they shut down the only had about four hundred fifty thousand subscribers in addition their ads weren't viewed by enough people and so advertisers were pushing to renegotiate some of their deals or defer payments and they have a lot of really high-profile executives leave before and after the service launch and then of course. We talked about meg. Whitman and jeffrey katzenberg earlier. They didn't exactly get along did they. Yeah they had they meg meg whitman. Jeffrey katzenberg clashed before the service launched way back in two thousand eighteen. Meg sent jeffrey an email. That said basically that he was treating her like an underlying that he was micromanaging employees. And that unless things improved she might have to quit the to eventually found common ground in continued operating the service with more responsibility for meg but they didn't exactly get off to a good start at the company so several issues. Eventually they all culminated. How quickly make the decision to shut the company down as opposed to some other option and was there anything else on the table. Yeah there was absolutely something else. On the table. The company was deciding between shutting down and returning a bunch of capital to investors or pivoting to what's called a freemium model you know. With more of an ad supported service the top executives ran the numbers and they determined that the premium of it would cost about two point. Four billion dollars in the next few years with four hundred million dollars in the next year and so face between the challenge of raising more money. Which would have been a very difficult conversation to have with. Investors or shutting the service down giving some money back to investors. They went with the latter option. So what happens equity now well. Employees have been laid off many of them and the company is in the process of winding the service. Down there exploring selling licensing rights to some of the content which they have and they're hoping to get additional revenue from that some employees will be staying on for a little while to wind the company down. But for the most part qube in its previous. Incarnation is gone and bigger picture here. Streaming video is becoming an increasingly crowded market to sort of break into. I wonder if there are any takeaways. A a moral of the story for other entrance in this game. I think one of the biggest lessons is that they're only so many services that subscribers will pay for you have disney. plus you have netflix. Hulu you have. Hbo max you have peacock. There's just so many of these things now and a lot of the incumbents like disney and nbc already have deep libraries of popular content. They can entice subscribers. So i think one of the big lessons is that you know. Maybe consumers aren't willing to pay for something. If one of the value propositions is that you can view it on your phone which is something that most of the streaming services already offer wall street journal reporter. Ben mullen. Thank you so much for joining me. Thanks again amanda. That's protect news briefing this week. Chris zindler supervising producer. Qatari yokum is the executive producer of wall street journal podcasts. And i'm your host. Amanda llewellyn if our show please do rate and review us in your app store. It really does help all right. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.

chance the rapper chrissy teigen Benjamin mullen billion dollars hollywood three billion dollar doj Jeffrey katzenberg justice department benjamin mullen ten minute facebook disney sony nbc universal Five billion dollars twenty four hours wall street journal ben trump disney
Parag Khanna Says the Future Is Asian

Kickass News

44:40 min | 2 years ago

Parag Khanna Says the Future Is Asian

"This is kick ass news. I'm Ben Mathis. No, one compliments you when their paycheck is correct. But make one mistake, and you risk alienating your entire workforce. Kronos, make sure your payroll is done, right. The first time from punch to paycheck with embedded checklists and simplified workflows Cronos is your single source of truth with Cronos, you get HR payroll talent and timekeeping in one unified system all with a proven implementation approach and simplified transparent pricing. Learn more at Cronos dot com slash payroll. Kronos, workforce innovation that works. And now enjoy the podcast. Hi, I'm Ben Mathis. Welcome to kick ass news in the nineteenth century. The world was European is d- in the twentieth century. It was Americanized now. In the twenty first century the world is being Asian is d- this. According to my guest today Parag Khanna who says far greater than just China. The new Asian system. Taking shape is a multi civilizational order spanning Saudi Arabia to Japan Russia to Australia Turkey to Indonesia, linking five billion people through trade finance infrastructure and diplomatic networks that together represent forty percent of global GDP. He says there's no more important region in the world for us to better understand the Asia. And thus we cannot afford to keep getting Asia so wrong. It's all in his new book appropriately, titled the future is Asian and today Parague kind of returns to the podcast to talk about it Barack. Warns that America has a China problem and the solution is Asia. In fact, he suggests that rejoining the Trans-Pacific Partnership and building stronger ties with other countries in the region is a much more effective and less risky way to gain leverage over China than a direct trade war. Indeed. He reveals what President Trump gets wrong when he says that America holds all the cards with China, and suggests that Trump's tariffs may actually hasten China's push to become less dependent on trade with the US. He talks about the booming markets emerging in other parts of Asia. And how leading American tech companies are already getting in on the game signing major manufacturing agreements in places. Like, India, South Korea and Vietnam lessee discusses the growing cultural influence represented by the hit movie crazy rich, Asians, and why he says Asian Americans are now crossing back over the Pacific to become American Asians coming up with Parag Khanna in just a moment. I'm happy to welcome Parague kinda back to the show for the third time Parague is a guy who's always seeing around corners and brings fascinating insights into where the world is heading. He is managing partner, a future map, a scenario planning and strategic advisory firm. He has been a fellow at the Brookings institute. New America in the league Kwan youth school at the National University of Singapore as well as an advisor to the US national intelligence council and US special operations forces. He is a young global leader of the World Economic Forum and leading next gen global intellectual whose numerous TED talks have garnered several million views the internationally bestselling author of six books, including the second world and connect dog Raphy parole. Khanna is now out with a new one titled the future is Asian commerce conflict in culture in the twenty first century Prague. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you, so much can't believe it's been three times. Yeah. A lot of seconds. But I don't know if we've ever had a third so like veteran. Thank you. Yeah. Now, you say the US has China problem. And the solution is Asia to me that sounds like saying we have a flooding problem in the solutions, more rain. So what exactly team? Well, you you really put your finger on it. Because the problem with the way, we think about Asia is that we think it's nothing more than just China be thinking that Asia is just China writ, large, whatever China wants, China and just a smattering of little neighbors here, the facts, China is one point five billion people Asia has five billion people there three point five billion Asians were not Chinese. They come from great rich powerful civilizations. Whether it is India or Iran or Russia, southeast Asian countries, Japan Korea, and the history of Asia is much more. The history of these diffuse dispersed civilizations, empires and states rather than just everyone bowing down to China. And so one of the main reasons I wrote this book, it's called the future as Asian. It's not called the future is Chinese in many ways, the present feels Chinese in the sense that we're so. Overwhelmed with all of this focus on China. But the next wave of Asian economic growth and the next wave of our American corporate attention and diplomatic priorities actually lie outside of China in India and southeast Asia in those countries most of which are democracies, by the way, there's two and a half billion people and they're starting to grow even faster than China economically. They have a larger population than China. They're getting more foreign investment than China. And that's all today. So if you're looking for just yet, another example of how so often are media or our political pundits. Or whatever are kind of behind the curve. This is definitely one of them. It's a big blind spot to ignore everyone else in only look at China. And even when we talk about China, specifically, the thinking always falls into two extremes one being the future is entirely China. And the other being that the future is certainly not going to be China due to slowing economic growth, demographic shifts. Cetera in reality. Do you think that China's future lies somewhere in between? You're exactly right. It is the other corollary. The other mistake is that it's always these all or nothing proposition. They're going to there are or -tarian. Therefore, they must collapse, you know, they have an environmental nightmare on their hands therefore their civilization will become extinct. They're growing old before they grow rich and on and on and on they have high debt therefore their economy is going to ruin you know, it's definitely somewhere in between their growth is slowing. But when you have the world's largest economy growing at five percents still means that you're adding two or three hundred billion dollars a year of new economic activity to the world economy, not to mention that. They are also stimulating the other growth wave as I mentioned, India and southeast Asian countries. Like Indonesian Thailand, and Vietnam and so forth are starting grow faster than China, and it's not in opposition to China. It's because of China because China has actually outsourcing its own business activity China is investing. More into these countries than any other country is so it's very consistent with Asian history. Japan was the country that led the Asian economic miracle. If you remember the fifties and sixties and seventies. Yeah. It was Japan inspired, South Korea. And that's called tiger economies. If you remember the tiger economies now China began to reform forty years ago, as you know, why did China, it's a very simple question. How did China become China in the last forty years? The reason is actually because of Japan and South Korea and Taiwan and Hong Kong because they were the leading investors in China. Right. They made it what it is today to this day. They're still the biggest investors in China. So now all of those countries Japan, South Korea, China, and so on are actually leading the investments into the new wave of Asian growth countries. So we when we look at Asia, we have to it as additive and cumulative and not just this either or black white trade war. I win. You lose kind of mentality. That we put to it. When President Trump talks about China. He always says that we hold all the cards here in the US, and he points to the fact that America is still China's biggest trade partner now for talking about countries. Yes, that's true. But what else is he missing by framing it in such narrow terms. Yes. He's missing something very important to into cut to the point. He's wrong, China's largest trading partners, collectively or its own Asian neighbors. If you add up China's trade with just Japan and just Korea and just India and Australia and southeast Asia. It's sort of immediate neighbours. Let's even cut out Austrailia, right? Just the countries that borders its way larger than its trade with America. Secondly, China's second largest set of trading partners is the European Union right in the European Union trades as if it's one economic unit right economic block, you know, even without the UK after Brexit, China trades way more. With Europe than it does with America. So actually, the United States is the third most important trade partner for China. The third most important not the most central not the most important. Of course, it's very significant their categories of goods, especially sensitive technologies that China has grown accustomed to getting from the US. And now it's going to have our time getting some of them, that's because of its intellectual property theft and its violations of fair trade, practices, and so forth. So they deserve to not get some of these things. But here's the other mistake the administration acts as if the China can only get those things for them the United States. That's not true. If you wanna buy semiconductors, you don't just have to get them you from Qualcomm or Intel or Invidia, you can get them from shin-etsu Japan from TSMC of Taiwan from Samsung of South Korea. Now, guess what? When we look at the tray. War. We look at it. Only from the standpoint of what did the White House say what did Beijing say, you know, what's happening in between those conversations Beijing is turning around turning to Japan and Korea Taiwan and saying, hey, I've got a deal for you US semiconductors. We can't get them anymore. How about you sell more to us who wouldn't wanna do that? Of course, they want to. So here's one thing that never gets reported trade between China and its neighbours like Japan and South Korea and Taiwan, which are very high tech economies, right and many ways on average more tech than we are Japan. China's just going to buy from them. And that's exactly what is happening. I'm not giving you some kind of hypothesis or like, you know, conspiracy theory, this is all ready happening, and we're not paying attention to it. Well, yeah. And China has a whole strategy called made in China twenty twenty five which is all about making China's self sufficient and replacing US suppliers with arguably more reliable trade partners such as Japan and South Korea. So you're saying. That Trump's trade war is actually hastening the pace of that. Now. Absolutely. Right. So a couple of things first of all made in China twenty twenty-five has actually been going on. I would say for forty years it was forty years ago that they open to foreign investment, and it was and that's the time that they began they became the world's factory floor new technology came in. But they always required that the technology transferred, and that and that, you know, there'd be joint ventures that that trained locals and so forth. So that they would become more competitive. So I like to say that made in China twenty twenty-five exactly begin yesterday. You know, it's really began forty years ago, and it's not going to stop because of Donald Trump as you exactly pointed out it's going to exceleron it's literally going to accelerate. Because now they realize what they're vulnerable Bility's are, and they wanna make sure that they're they're not susceptible to those kinds of supply cutoffs from the US anymore. This president seems to believe that a direct economic war of attrition is the only. Way to deal with China. Use him to be pointing to a different path that involves the US engaging more with these other nations in the region that are on the rise. Certainly I have to say that sounds like a safer bet. Yes. And by the way, it's something that again is not kind of just a conjecture or an idea or theory. If you look at America's digital media internet companies, of course, as you very well know, they haven't been able to operate in China, you write us Facebook who, but guess what? They're huge everywhere else in Asia. They're huge in southeast Asia in Japan. And India, they're growing double digits, sometimes triple digits year in terms of the number of consumers using them the B two B sales Adra knew all the stuff is growing like crazy all of those countries as I said before a lot of these countries are democracies. They're more open liberal political economy. You can do business there you can own one hundred percent of your investment there and so on so in a way, America's tech companies. A lot of them have already. He been doing for a long time. What all the rest of corporate America now has to do which is to start to get more eggs out of just the China basket and start to diversify across the rest of Asia yen. I believe Apple's going to be assembling their phones in India now. Right. That's exactly right. So in the same week that apple announced it sort of decreasing revenue in China. They basically finally relented because India had been pressuring them to manufacture I phones in India for a long time or not just any iphones because they used to old ones. But now the latest models of of iphones, and that's now what's going to happen in India. And so that means that of course, there sales will India will grow, and it'll be good for India to obviously because it's going to create quite a few jobs. But again, this is a sign that, you know, big tech companies and the rest of the US, you know, sort of exporting corporate juggernauts are going to have to start to get a lot more active in these. Countries like India, and I wanna talk to you about the best approach to this. When vice president Pence visited the region fairly recently. He gave a speech that many dubbed, Cold War two point. Oh, if asked to choose sides between China, and the US how are these countries likely to respond? They're not going to choose sides. You know since this is our third gun relation. You may remember a long time ago. We talked about my first book called the second world empires and influence in the new global order, and in that book, I made very clear that the kind of dominant ideology or doctrine that drives countries diplomatic decision. Making is not choosing one side or the other a lot of these countries have just still remember the Cold War with to choose between, the US and the social, and there's no way they want to go back to playing second fiddle or third fiddle. Instead what they're doing is what I called back then multi alignment, I'm not going to align with you. I'm not gonna line with the other guy. I'm in a multi align have good relations with you. Good relations with them. Good relations of the Europe. Good relations of the Russia. Good relations with Saudi Arabia and on and on and on. And that's what every country's actually doing. We talk about this idea of. Oh, what if they have to choose is as if a they are being asked to choose sides and be they have no say in the matter, but they do have a say in the matter, and I can tell you how they're behaving rather than how we think they should have to choose how to behave. So let's live in reality here in the real world countries are saying I would love for the US to join the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement, but if they're not gonna join it, I'm still going to do the regional comprehensive economic partnership with China, right? That's the real world countries. Let me put it really bluntly. There are a lot smarter than we think they are. So China's advantage here is that they're not asking anyone to choose sides right now. Yes, they're not. In fact, you know, they didn't stand in the way of TPP happening, for example. And of course, it did it did happen. And they were happy enough. I'm sure to see the US not join it. But, but you know, that that's the way they sort of operate. They're aware that everyone is going to cut multidirectional deals again. They appreciate this multi alignment a lot more than we do. You know, we again, we tend to think you're with us or you're against us. Now, we're a couple of presidents away. From that statement, you know from the from the door W Bush administration, but we still act like it mom, even though we don't say it. We're basically saying you're with us you're against us and believe me, that's a really bad sort of demand to make on countries that can that have so many options in who they're going to do business with what should be priority. Number one for the US. Then rejoining TPP is that the Bessler step to the extent that President Trump is capable of any kind of regret or remorse. And I'm just not sure that that's the case. But we're it to be true. I think that he ought to regret not joining the TPP, even the Wall Street Journal editorial board has turned against him, and is pointing out all of the ways in which sectors of the, you know, America. Economy are hurting as a result of being cut out now from the kind of level playing field or more level playing field at Canadian companies are gonna benefit from Mexican our own neighbors. Join TPP, very enthusiastically, and we backed out of it. Even though we created it. And now now that it's gone into effect. Whether you're a know Japanese commodities company or doing I recall -ture or poultry or Canadian, you know, in industry Mexican cars, all of these things are going to be more competitive now in Asia again where five billion people are who wanna buy stuff. We're shoe we've shot ourselves in the foot by not joining that trade agreement that and a few other things, but that would be obviously a very big one in terms of what we need to do. I mean that state of the union is coming up one would hope that, you know, Trump would say something about about this issue. But of course, he's not going to turn back. And now China has floated the idea of joining teepee itself, I recall the first time, we talk. Act. I believe that you predicted that that was going to happen at the time. There were still a number of hurdles to China joining how close do you think China's now? Yes, there has been talking. I did predict that with the US not joining TB that would incentivize China to potentially join however since most of the TPP Member States are in Asia. And they've now launched this Asian version of teepee the RC EP regional economic partnership China's going to focus on getting that passed this year. And when it comes to the the countries in the western hemisphere that it wants to have, you know, sort of greater trade with that's obviously, you know, Canada, Mexico Chile and so forth, but China already has such enormous trade with them that teepee wouldn't make a big difference. And in many ways, you say what's happening in Asia right now is return to how things were before European colonialism? What are the parallels that you say, yes, you know? This was one of the most fun interesting. And and you know, sort of enriching. Aspects of the book to research is just to look at the pre colonial world, basically the world of the sixteenth century, you know, before Europeans really got their foothold in Asia and managed to to subjugate sort of sort of Asian countries and to to sort of dominate them. So five hundred years ago was the kind of most recent era of silk roads, the silk roads existed for two thousand two thousand years so up until that time there was flourishing trade between Arabs and West Asia. Which we now call the Middle East, you know, and and as far as as China and Korea India, of course, and that world is back. We've spent the Asians have spent the last thirty years since the end of the Cold War rebuilding though, silk roads, and we haven't been paying attention to it, obviously because we were busy celebrating winning the Cold War than we were looking at the civil wars in the in the Balkans and all sorts of other things. Got distracted by nine eleven and so forth. But just to be clear that doesn't mean that the whole rest of the world are sitting there waiting for our signals. Right. The last thirty years they have now Asians trade more with each other than with the rest of the world already today. Like actually for about ten years. Now that's been true. So Asians have already built these new silk roads. And I would say it's only our mentality that still lags behind appreciating that that's already a fact we're gonna take a quick break. And then we'll be back with more with Parague Khanna when we come back in just a minute. If there's something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from cheating. Your goals better. Help online counseling can help. Better. Help offers licensed professional counselors who are specialized in issues such as depression anxiety relationships. Trauma anger family conflicts, LGBT matters, grief, self esteem and more connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment and get help at your own time. And at your own pace, anything you share is confidential. And it's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as Chattan text with your therapist. If for some reason, you're not happy with your counselor though, you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge. Best of all, it's a truly affordable option. Kick-ass news listeners. Even get ten percent off your first month with the discount code kick. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slash kick. Then simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love that's better. Help dot com slash kick. One more time better help dot com slash kick. And now back to the show. China has this massive infrastructure investment called the belt road initiative. The common perception is that the belt road will expand China's dominance over its neighbors in the region. Would you think right? I think the exact opposite. And this is actually very, you know, this is a very controversial issue. Again, a lot of people as you said do look at the Belton wrote initiative, and basically what they see is like a one way ticket to Chinese dominance. But the way history works the way empires work, in the way infrastructure works, which is that basically an empire like China is is investing in infrastructure. It's even building it for its neighbors in former days, we would have called these colonies, but what's happening is that as in the past these countries like Pakistan or respective stone, or wherever they're going to use this infrastructure to modernize diversify their economy to create jobs to grow. And then they're gonna tracked more foreign investment. We're talking about countries like Pakistan that would have been considered basket cases just a few years ago. But now that there's all this Chinese money and infrastructure global investors are looking at them and saying, you know, what that's an interesting place to do business. Look how fast consumption is growing and their stock market is growing. And so these countries will actually gain the confidence to resist China because of China, China giving them the tools to resist and by the way, that's exactly history works, otherwise, the British empire would still exist. Otherwise, India Foxton, all these would still be British colonies, why aren't they because they gave them railways the English language in the civil service and in doing so again, it gave them the tools to wind wind up resisting the British and what you see today. Again, not a not a forecast, not a prediction, not a hypothesis right now look at the news, look at Pakistan and look at Sri Lanka look at me. And mar look at Malaysia look at. Kazahstan all of these countries are saying, you know, what too much to China rip up this project renegotiate debt. Give the deal to someone else. Kick out the Chinese businesses. They're doing all these things every single day. So the kind of one of my punch lines on this is that what took European empires. Three hundred years to learn three hundred years. China is learning in about three years interesting. So there is a certain degree of anti-china sentiment among their neighbors that the US might be able to capitalize on. Yeah. And again, it's one of these things where because we look at Asia. And all we see is China, whatever China once we often miss the fact that actually these countries have thousands of years of history in dealing with China. They've had times when they've invaded China dominated it other chimes less such now they're scared of it. But they've got thousands of years of history, and they know how to play the game with China. And of course, we should have been paying attention all along to the fact that these fourteen neighbors China. Has as many or more neighbors than any country in the world, right fourteen. None of them, particularly like China. Right. They're all very very afraid of China. So they're going to do whatever they can to undermine. And so what I like to say that if we want to make sure that these countries don't fall prey to Chinese dominance. We just have to put our money where mouth czar Ryan if to step up and say, hey, why are you taking a five percent interest rate loan from China for infrastructure when we could help you get two percent from the World Bank, and why are using Chinese contractor where you know, the stuff that they build you might fall apart, you know, in the next month when you should be using an American or a German company right after step up and play that game. And the way to do. It is not to you know, almost in a way to participate in the Belton wrote initiative because remember that it's a good thing. Build infrastructure. What China is doing is a good thing. It is good to build roads and highways and railways in places that are poor and disconnected. And where the population has tripled. Right. It is a good thing. We have to accept not only have to accept it. It's just a fact in every think-tank study and investment Bank and multilateral organization agrees. And I think that you can just intuitively understand appreciate that. You can't build a modern economy when you're still on like couples when you're still under roads, you know, what I mean? So China's helping these countries and what we should do is to steer in a direction where they get the roads. But they don't get the dominance. And that can be done. It's actually not that difficult. We just have to step up to the plate diplomat. Cly China's reconvening the Belton road initiative for meetings in April, the US is likely to boycott that meeting, but you know, just because beer, I was China's baby that doesn't necessarily mean. It's a bad idea. Should the US check. It's ego and send a delegation. That's exactly right. The US should send a delegation, the US should be, you know, sort of present there again as should Britain and Germany and others. It's fine for us. Us as we have done to launch a competitive initiative called the the US international, finance and Development, Corporation and Europe has its thing called the Asia can activity initiative, that's fine. But the fact is that China has these relationships with forty or fifty countries of differing degrees of importance, and that's the belt and road initiative. And if they're going to lock up, all these deals, and contracts and relationships, and and structures and priorities, and we're not in the tent, we're not gonna shape how they deal with each other. So we should absolutely show up. You know, the Belton road charter celebrates the idea free enterprise and open tenders market principles. Those things are not going to actually happen unless you know, the Germans in the Brits and Americans are they're arguing for it and saying, hey, wait a minute. Why did you just cut this deal with Kazahstan where the Chinese got the contract? There was no open bidding or tender. You know, what's up with that? Someone has to show up and say what's up with that? You know, we're not gonna tolerate it. And then that's how you dilute China's influence, and again, it doesn't require military. That's the beautiful thing. Right. Yeah. I call this. The I call us an infrastructure arms race, and it infrastructure arms raises better than a military arms race in a military arms race that can can only lead to one thing war and death infrastructure race creates jobs and economic growth right in your competing to connect. And that's actually a beautiful thing. So I'd like to think that this is a competition where it's sort of a race to the top. You know, who can deliver the best stuff for all of these countries that need it at at a good price and with good standards in the end, China's building a lot of roads. But all roads don't have to lead China. I wanna talk some more about why the US should be investing in these areas. How big are these non Chinese markets in Asia? What's going on there right now that makes them so attractive over the next few decades? So their first of all again, they represent a larger population than China as they said three and a half billion. People then they represent a younger population than China. You know, countries that have a median age below thirty in some cases, certainly below thirty five whereas China's is over forty almost forty five years of age. So they're also again like I said, they're more open political economy. It's easier to do business there. You're not facing as much competition from the Chinese juggernauts that have the government support. Right. So all of those factors helped make them very very attractive. And and I think that's going to be, you know, although you'd requires that you have a more individualized strategy. You can't just look at Indonesia and say, you know, great. That's my substitute for China. It's not obviously, it's not nearly as big as China. But again, if you have a strategy for India and for Pakistan in Bangladesh and Indonesia Thailand, Vietnam, these countries are close to each other. You may need obviously more localized presence. But you will in the end have access to what is eventually going to be as large market has China, you praise the modern technocratic. Governments in places like Singapore where you live and you say there's what you call a top down revolution going on. That term might seem like an oxymoron so explain what that looks like yet. And I say very clear that it's an oxymoron, right? It makes no sense in theon you, but it makes total, but it works very well and practice so first of all it's not about praising Asia per se in that book technocracy in America. I spent the first third of it praising Switzerland, right, Switzerland is the architect archetype of great democracy with a high degree of citizen participation. It doesn't have mandatory voting. But almost people vote unlike in our country, you know, or in other countries, so I'm actually four universal mandatory voting from the age of sixteen and up. I would like to see it in every country in the whole world. But you know, most countries don't have that yet. So the idea of Technic Technet technocracy in America technocracy in general is not as an antithesis to democracy. It's to complement it with leadership, that's meritocratic that has a strategic. Vision roadmap something that's credible. People who are who are experts in what they do. They know how to run a state they know to run of your aqua. See they not a managed budgets. They're impartial. Maybe less political. You know, they don't have to fight for reelection. Every two years. I know. This sounds exactly like like America, doesn't it? So we have democracy. Right. But obviously the challenges were facing and the and the internal discord that we have proved that democracy alone is not gonna make for an effective government in effective state, and a better society that is always improving it's going to take more than that from our leadership. And that's why I think we need to go back and revisit how we structure whether it's the White House or congress. Did you dish airy the independence of groups like the central Bank and so forth? Everything's become so, hyper politicized that. It's really damaging to the long term strategy. That's needed to be a successful. St. yen one thing that I found interesting about that. When you talk about societies like Singapore, people having a say in their government is not something that happens every four two years. There's a feedback loop that's kind of built into the system and places like Singapore. So that the technocrats can then go back and try and improve services. Right. This is why say that, you know, in a way democracy is a form of data. Right. We have an election. We collect data points. What percentage of people voted for X, what percentage of people voted for why? And and so forth, right. And so we need more data that we what about all the people who don't vote. What are they think, you know, what what can we read from their social media meta data on their points of view? What about when they do see click fix, and they sent us a photo of a pothole the street. Have we fixed it, you know, and in Singapore, even though, you know, which which party is gonna win the election, though, their popularity is actually declining and they measure that and they respond to that what they do is. They measure issues all the time. You know is the price of of the buses and trains to high. What about education, you know? Are you able to afford food is our infrastructure? Good enough. You know, are there enough jobs? What are the skills you need? They ask people all the time about everything. And even though they know they're going to win the next election. They still respond everything the people want if the people say, hey too, many immigrants and they reduce immigration, right? If people say, hey too, much foreign to many foreign investors coming into the housing market. You know, and it's it's making prices really volatile. It's screwing up our retirement savings. The government says damn we'd better do something about it. And they stopped the bad practice. So it's a lesson in how to be self correcting writing the best government is not necessarily one kind or another kind. But the best government is always self-correcting, right because democracy isn't perfect. Authoritarian state is certainly not perfect either. Right. So the question is are you adaptive? And one of the things that we in American political science have learned to appreciate about China is that they may never become democratic, but they are self correcting their learning, right? They're always learning in the future is Asian. You also talk about the growing cultural impact of Asia, you say that Asians once wanted to emulate the west and now the west wants to emulate Asia Asians used to produce for the west. And now the west produces for Asia where we seeing the influence of Asia. Right. So in the punch the third line there is they used to want to be like. Us. And now, we want to be like, you know. And you can sort of see that when you know, when you when you when you when you think about our conversations about how we wish our government worked. You know, we wish function, you know, we wish we had those smart cities with the latest infrastructure, and those you know, MagLev trains that go three hundred kilometers an hour. And they've got that. How come we don't have that, you know? So so there is a bit of that going on. But then the cultural side is a lot of things. I wanna just emphasize again, it's not just China. So yes, we've got lots more Chinese restaurants. And we've got lots more students learning Chinese. We know that we've got a lot more Chinese foreign investment here. We've got trainees infiltrating or you know, our educational system. You know, the FBI is worried about Chinese spies everywhere. So there is that. But there's also the Bollywood weddings in the K pop music and the study abroad kids who are going to the Philippines, and to into Indonesia learning Bahasa and Hindy there's so many dimensions to the, you know, Asian. His Asian of American life. Right. I mean, the the new the net new migrants from Asia into the US are fifty percent Chinese but fifty percent everyone else in the everyone else part is growing faster because again, those populations are younger than China's. So, you know, there's a lot of reasons why if you add it all up at up the influence of all of these countries, it's really remarkable. And by the way, the largest source you, and I are both old enough to remember when the top concerning immigration was that. Wow. There's so many Latinos coming were becoming a Latin country and so forth. There's still some people who think that. Yeah. Yeah. Evidently, there are why what a why am I pretending like this is like this is ancient history. But here's the interesting thing. The number of new American citizens every year, the top source of new American citizens every year is Asia. It's that was interesting. And you also report on a new breed of American ex Pat, the American Asians instead of Asian Americans or Asian Americans who are now becoming American Asians permanently migrating across the Pacific is that mostly driven by economic opportunity, or are there other factors at play. It's a lot of things that I'm glad you mentioned it because this is the part of the book and in one of the articles. I recently wrote that that's the most personal story because obviously I grew up as an Asian American. That's what I was called. Obviously, I'm totally American, but I'm Asian. So so, you know, we were called Asian Americans and the but now I've relocated back. To Asia, and I live in Singapore. And it's very ex-pat friendly kind of place, and there's millions and millions of Americans and Europeans Canadians who have moved over to various countries around the region. You know, if you are looking for a really low cost quality of living, you know, you go to Thailand or nesia if you wanna be in a really well connected. Super high tech place you go to Singapore, Hong Kong or Tokyo wherever you're going. The point is that what I've observed in the last five years is that a lot of these, you know, Americans are there on one way tickets. It's like, you know, I'm going to try it out for a while. And then one year two years becomes twenty years, and you've become an American Asian, and that term did not exist until I coined it. Because there was no we never believed that anyone would who left their country usually a poor futile backwards agrarian society in Asia who came to America would ever turn around and leave again. But again as you said the economic. Unity's are so powerful there. So compelling the markets are going so fast. And for those people who already are like ethnically Asian like me, it's not exactly that hard to fit in. You know in many ways just like Asian American struggled to fit in in America. American Asians are going and saying, hey, I wanna fit in in Asia. I wanna be cool. I wanna learn Mandarin. You know, and I want to work for a local startup at and all that kind of stuff, and I want to eat, you know, sort of street food or whatever a home. So I see a lot of that. I'm not sort of making it up. It's not just my story. If it were just my story, quite frankly would not have written about it. I, you know, I try not to put myself in my books, you know, they're very analytical. But it's millions of people. That's why I wrote about it. And I know a number of people personally who've gone through that experience and go particularly to where you live Singapore. And they say they're gonna go for a year. And like you said they end up staying for a decade and still they're still they're probably all of. This. Let's remember unite or little bit sort of older, I hate to describe myself in that way, I used to be the young guy everywhere. But now, I meet all of these students who are, you know, exactly half, my age university students, and you know, for them. It's perfectly natural to think that oh well as soon as I graduate, I'm gonna go to Asian to something in Asia. And let's remember this. They already started learning Chinese when they were kids. So so for us it wasn't normal. Because like when we were kids they were still teaching Russian in high school and German, and they don't do that anymore. So for the last twenty so icy university kids, you know, you know, white kids for lack of a better term coming from America to Asia, they already speak Mandarin. That's not prohibitive for them. They've been learning it all along. So they're perfectly capable of becoming American Asians. And and again, that's why she and they don't just come, you know, sort of sort of naive, you know, they're confident and one of the things I point out is that Asia's not looking to attract the dumb and poor and unskilled Americans because remember Asia's five billion people. They've got lots of unskilled and poor people already. What Asia wants are the smart and entrepreneurial ones, and so whenever I meet new Americans. I'm kind of like the welcoming committee. Anyway, you know, I'm meeting some of the brightest most brilliant young Americans have ever met and there there again. They're on one way tickets. They've become American Asians. Well, Singapore is still one of those places that toward the top of my list that I haven't been is. Singapore is exciting as it looks in crazy, rich, Asians. Oh, it's it's so funny though in those of us like kind of went to the movies that week or the next week and saw it. We're like, oh my God. Like, that's that's us. That's like that's across the street. It's a very small country rights, and that you can cycle around today to be honest. I mean, they obviously only showed one side of it. You know, they they did capture the street food, which is kind of like world renowned in Michelin starred, and then they captured the kind of billionaire scene there are you know, matter of factly a lot of billionaires. But let's remember it is a real society. I mean, it's it's by the way, it's the most multi-ethnic multi-religious place in the world, you're the highest rate of intermarriage in the world. So it's a really harmonious place, actually, obviously, that's engineered it's by design. Let's not kid ourselves for those. Who haven't read the memoirs of Lee Kuan Yew in the history of Singapore? It's. Actually worthwhile reading actually, so, you know, it's it's a tough place in the sense that's disciplined strict. But here's what I've noticed in just a few years. It's loosened up big time got the Formula one Qarase on the streets. We've got beyond Saint Madonna. We've got red bull. You know, sort of paragliding competitions. It's a really fun place and has more and more people are coming. Well, parague. You've always got fascinating insights, and you make us think and you've always got great charts and maps point that out once again, your book has fascinating graphics illustrating, the points, you make the book is called the future is Asian commerce conflict and culture in the twenty first century Prague Khanna, thanks for talking with me grades talk to you as always. Thanks again to Parague conifer coming on the podcast order his book. The future is Asian on Amazon audible or wherever books are. So you can keep up with Parague Parague dot com or on Twitter at at Parague Khanna, spelled P A R H G K H A N N. Whatever struggles you're facing from depression and anxiety to trauman grief better help can connect you with a professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. It's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as Chattan text with your therapist, and anything you share is completely confidential. That's divall. It's a truly affordable option gas news listeners. Even get ten percent off your first month with the discount code kick. So why not get started simply go to better? Help dot com slash kick. And fill out a questionnaire to get matched with a counselor. You'll love today. Be sure to subscribe to kick ass news on apple podcasts if you haven't already. And if you like what you're hearing, then Rayton review us while you're there five star reviews are the easiest way for new listeners to find us. Don't forget to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter at at kick ass, news pod and feel free to Email me with your thoughts questions and suggestions that comments at kick ass news dot com until next time. I'm Ben Mathis. And thanks for listening to kick ass news. Gas news is a trademark of Mathis entertainment Inc.

China Asia US America India President Trump Singapore southeast Asia Europe South Korea Japan Taiwan Indonesia Ben Mathis Japan Trump Vietnam Apple Parag Khanna Barack
Editors Picks: June 8th 2020

The Economist: Editor's Picks

34:22 min | 11 months ago

Editors Picks: June 8th 2020

"It's Monday. The Eighth of June twenty twenty I'm Helen Joyce. The economists executive editor for events. Welcome to editor's picks. Were you can hear three highlights from the paper this week. Read Aloud. Our cover story looks at police, violence and protests in America. More than three hundred and fifty cities nationwide erupted after George Floyd. An unarmed African American man was killed by a white police officer. For nearly nine minutes deaf to Mr Fluids, please into the growing along with the crowd. The office choke the life out of him. That was the spark. That ignited protests like a bundle of kindling, waiting to go up. This during a time of Covid, nineteen has already run home. The fact that whenever America suffers misfortune, black America suffers most. It'll be easy to conclude the police. Violence and racial inequality in America are just too hard problem to fix. Such pessimism is unwarranted. Next, the pandemic is hurting siege Jinping's global development strategy. We look at China's belt and road initiative survive. And finally. A lesson in productivity from Alexander Pushkin. The Russian poets time in isolation during an eighteen thirty cholera outbreak. This is most important. The stories are about to hear a justice sample of what's offer in the paper with the subscription. You can read or listen to all of what we do to get the best introductory offer wherever you are around the world. Just go to economists dot com slash podcast offer. I up. We'll protesters in American cities bring progress or set back the cause they champion. One hundred thousand Americans are dead from virus. A feet of spaceflight demonstrates American ingenuity in cities across the country protests sparked by racial injustice, A-, showing an ugly side of America to the world in November voters must choose between a Republican running on a law and order platform and uninspiring vice president, running for the Democrats. The year is one thousand, nine, hundred, sixty eight. It is also twenty twenty. In nineteen, sixty eight, the virus was flu and the Space Mission. Apollo eight, but the injustice had the same corrosive effect as James Baldwin wrote in the early nineteen sixties. Racism compromises where it does not corrupt all the American efforts to build a better world here there or anywhere. Today more than three hundred fifty cities nationwide erupted after George Floyd. An unarmed African American man was killed by a white police officer. For nearly nine agonizing minutes death to Mr Fluids, please and the growing alarm of the crowd. The officer choked the life out of him. No wonder! The spark ignited a bundle of kindling, lying nearby the fire. This time is burning for the same reasons has so often in the past that many African Americans still live in places with the worst schools, the worst healthcare and the worst jobs that the rules apply differently to black people. The fact rammed home by Covid nineteen that whenever America suffers misfortune. Black America suffers most a sense that the police are there to keep a lid on cities poor, even as they protect wealthy suburbs, and yes, the share intoxication that comes from belonging to a crowd that has suddenly found its voice, and which demands to be heard. The cycle of injustice protest, riot and conservative reaction has come round many times since nineteen sixty eight so many that it would be easy to conclude that police violence and racial inequality in America adjust to harder problem to fix. Yet such pessimism is unwarranted. It is also counterproductive. Activists sometimes charged the entire criminal justice system is racist. Police unions protect their members including the Russian ones in recent days. A police car has rammed. Protesters and officers have assaulted people on the street. But the system is made up of thousands of jurisdictions and police departments. They are not all the same for every Minneapolis where some thuggish officers went on warrior courses and saw themselves as an occupying force. There is a Camden New Jersey. Camden? Police Force was save broken that in two thousand thirteen. It was disbanded and the city started afresh. It's police chief was this week able to march with peaceful protesters through their city? Policing America is hard because America is more violent than any other rich country and its citizens more heavily armed. About fifty police officers are murdered while doing their job each year. But the sustained fools in crime for the past three decades of made room for less warlike law enforcement by training offices to defuse confrontation, not seek it, and by making them accountable whenever they used force. Many police departments including Camden have already taken this chance to turn themselves round. Others have not partly because the federal government under President Donald, trump has eased the pressure for change. But the police and prosecutors are under local democratic control. They can be made to embrace reform if enough people vote for it. Pessimism is self defeating to. It is a short step from thinking that America's original racial sin is so deep that it cannot be overcome to thinking that smashing and burning things is justified because it is the only way to get attention. Yet if today's protests slide into persistent rioting as in nineteen, sixty eight after Martin, Luther King's assassination, the harm they cause could be felt most keenly in African American districts. Those people who can leave will. The left behind will be worse off as home values, plunge and jobs and shops disappear. The police may withdraw leading to an increase in crime, which in turn may eventually bring more violent policing. Scars will be. Visible for decades. Across the country black leaders who have seen this happen before a telling protesters not to undermine their cause. A protest has purpose, said Atlanta's man key chalance bottoms condemning vandalism in her city. In recent days, protesters have heeded that and have been trying to restrain those who just want to start a fire. Some of them white troublemakers. Black leaders also understand how riots can wreck a political cause when neighborhoods are ablaze, the rest of the country focuses on putting out. The fires harm to police. Officers in riots may cause voters to forget where their sympathies lay when it will began. When rioting takes hold those who support the protests may find that their demands for change or drowned out by the clamor for order to be reestablished. In the presidential election fear often beats idealism. Mr Trump seems to want this to be the choice in November he has encouraged his supporters to clash with protesters outside the White House and been looking to deploy active troops alongside the National Guard, so as to dominate what his people call the battlespace. Law and order helped Richard. Nixon beat. Hubert Humphrey in nineteen, sixty eight. It could work again. Yet fear betrays Mr Fluids memory. The more America is united, the better it constructive to ensure that all citizens are able to live by its founding ideals. Unity will not come from Mr Trump. Who has spent four years trying to divide the country? Instead the leaders of protest movements along with America's Mares and police chiefs must inspire it themselves. If the protests are overwhelmingly known violent. They also carry a promise. Not that the protesters will get everything they want, nor that the injustices holding back african-americans Kanobi put right at once, but that tomorrow can be better than today. By the end of the decade, in which Baldwin Rose of the need to heal America, the country had set about dismantling the legal edifice of segregation. It was also in the grip of a reaction from those who thought simple rights had gone too far. America is like that progress tussles with its opposite. But Americans have been tugging away at racism for half a century this week. When the cruel death of a black man drew protesters of all races onto America's streets, it was not just a sign of how much work lies ahead, but also that progress is possible. For more analysis listen to checks and balances from economists radio, our weekly podcast on the lead up to the presidential election. That's checks and balance published every Friday. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. Next. The pandemic is hurting China's belt and road initiative Halcion Jinping's biggest project survive. Just over a year ago at a gathering in Beijing of world leaders, who had signed up to his belt and road, initiative or Bri China's President Xi Jinping peppered his speech with proverbs. The ceaseless inflow of rivers makes the ocean deep was one a reference to how his scheme involving huge spending on infrastructure in other countries would promote the global flow of goods, capital and technology, and with them economic growth. Amid the pandemic, many countries may be wishing. This was so but some B. R.. I. Projects a stalling as countries struggle to repay related debts. China's own economy is faltering to silk. Roads are getting bumpier. Be R I is the centerpiece of Mr. She's foreign policy. In twenty seventeen, he gave it hallowed political status by having it written into the Communist. Party is constituency than. Lording it thereby became obligatory. China's state-owned media are duly doing so brl. Cooperation is entering a stage of high-quality development. Said a headline in global times apart. He owned tabloid. The B. R.. I will become a catalyst for global economic recovery, said another on the website of the Party's mouthpiece the People's Daily. But the going is rough along the Silk Road Economic Belt and the Twenty First Century Maritime Silk Road to give the scheme its full name. Since twenty thirteen when Mr, she fest began talking about these new silk roads China has given or promised hundreds of billions of dollars in loans and grants for power, plants, ports, railways, roads, and other infrastructure in Africa Latin America. Southeast Asia Central Asia and Europe. But as a result of COVID, nineteen work on some projects says come to a halt. A few have been scrapped. Several that seemed of dubious worth. Even before the pandemic now look like white elephants, many of the learns on the brink of technical default as debtor countries hammered by covid nineteen seek to defer payments that are coming due in February Egypt postponed indefinitely. China funded construction of what was to be. The world's second largest coal fired power plant at Hamra wine the following month. Bangladesh canceled plans for coal. Coal Plant at Gaza. Ria In April Pakistan asked China easier repayment terms on thirty billion dollars worth of power projects in April Tanzania's President John. Magoo fully said he would cancel a ten billion dollar port project at Bagamoyo, because it was signed by his predecessor with conditions that only a drunkard would accept chiefly that China would gain full control of the Port with a ninety nine year lease. And in May Nigerian legislators voted for a review of all of China's loans for Chinese projects amid concerns that financing may have been agreed on unfavourable terms. African leaders have called for emergency debt forgiveness from sovereign creditors, including China, which is all about eight billion dollars this year in payments on about one hundred and forty five billion dollars in loans to African countries, many involving BRL projects work has also been delayed by quarantine and safety measures related to the pandemic, including restrictions imposed by some countries on the return of Chinese workers who had gone back to China for the Lunar New Year holiday in January. In Vietnam, such impediments have delayed a twenty day test of a new metro line in Hanoi mood and one hundred Chinese experts involved in building. It have been unable to reenter the country. The project was already at least four years behind schedule, and at a cost of nearly eight hundred million dollars for eight miles of track massively over budget. This presents problems for China's leaders in the realms of economics, diplomacy and politics at home where the B. R. I is closely linked with the prestige of Mr She. I there will be financial losses. Many countries raise the cash for brl projects by exporting commodities, but the pandemic has hit demand for them. Should China reduce the amount owed as sovereign lenders sometimes do in response to a financial crisis, or should it try to preserve as many loans and. Projects as it can by delaying payments and extending terms, it's typical approach either way experts say a wave of defaults is inevitable in April amid debtors, growing calls for help. The G. Twenty, which incudes China broadly agreed to allow up to seventy three countries to suspend debt service payments totaling about twelve to fourteen billion dollars until the end of the year. But the devil is in the details, the G. Twenty warns that applying for a suspension of debt service payments could breach other terms to which a country may have agreed. Unlike members of the Paris Club of big sovereign lenders who do not require collateral for their development loans. China's banks do for about sixty percent of their lending to developing countries, says common reinhard the World Bank's incoming chief economist. In theory country could apply for debt-relief early to find the China could claim the rights to mine a- port or money held in escrow. This is one reason why China's banks prefer to renegotiate sovereign lanes bilaterally, and in secret they have leverage and can choose how to apply it, but this is where diplomatic risk will loom large for China. Claiming assets from defaulting countries would create a few rory. It would damage China's image in countries that the I was intended to help and strengthened suspicions among Western hoax. That China is using the BRI to saddle countries with debt and thereby gain control of infrastructure that could help it strategically. They thought they were facing a backlash. Now it would be really severe for them if they were to seize. Control Says Scott Morris of the Center for Global Development a think tank in Washington China may decide to tread warily. Until the global economy recovers, there will certainly be fewer new BRI projects. It feels hard to imagine the initiative maintaining the level of ambition that had had says Mr Morris however given the political importance China attach is to the Brl at home, and the effort is made to persuade countries to sign documents endorsing it more than one hundred and thirty have most of them non-westin. It is unlikely to let the idea drop. Fortunately for China's propagandists, the B. R. I is a shape shifting concept that allows them to adapt it to changing circumstances. Hitherto. Its focus has been on building hard infrastructure. But the term is often applied to almost any activity abroad, involving big Chinese firms that can be touted as helping to create a Silk Road of peace. In other words, it means anything the Chinese government likes. Image, the pandemic officials can easily play down the pouring of concrete and stress, other kinds of Chinese largesse under the banner of the BRI officials, the now lauding the idea of a health. Silk Road to help distribute medical support and food aid. The idea harks back to the first speech Mr. she gave in two thousand thirteen about his plans for maritime silk. Road in it. He recalled length how nine years earlier China had responded to the Indian Ocean to Nami by mounting its biggest ever relief operation overseas. In Indonesia. Many local people had learned to speak Chinese and hailed members of the Chinese rescue teams with the words. China Beijing I love you. China expects that the BRI branded medical supplies which it is now showering on covert struck, countries will prompt similar expressions of gratitude. Focusing on such assistance makes political sense for China. It can make a big difference to recipients efforts to fight the disease, and requires far less cash than a port or railway. Also gaining more prominence is the vaguely defined idea of a digital silkroad. It has been adapted for pandemic use to include helping other countries replicate China's successes with APP based approaches to tracking the corona virus. Chinese officials may take advantage of the lull in building work to think again about which projects unnecessary. They have been stung. By Western criticism of the social and environmental costs of Bri Infrastructure and of the opaque deals involved at last year's meeting with world leaders, Mister. She stressed that the Brl should be open, green and clean. The pandemic of was a chance quietly to knicks, unpopular dams, which can suffer costly delays due to protests and dirty coal plants, which are not a sound investment anyway. Nobody on wall. Street will tell you that a coal plant will be affordable forty years from now, says Kevin Gallagher at Boston. University instead China may push the expansion of solar and wind energy. Mr Gallagher notes that in Pakistan Chinese firms have built multiple wind farms under the auspices of our I. If you ask for that, stuff China has it. If right without drowning, country's in debt B. R.. I. Projects May yet provide a welcome boost to the global economy. Before the pandemic, the World Bank estimated that be alright. Transport projects in Asia including high-speed railways would boost the GDP of participating countries by up to three point four percent overall. Some of those rail projects have stalled and China is now preoccupied with its own heart economy, but Daniel Rosen of Rhodium group research firm argues that China's policy banks have ample capacity to maintain the present level of brl lending. It just is not economically prudent for them to do so especially before a global recovery is on track when that happens, the Bri may revert to its original focus and many countries in desperate need of better infrastructure will welcome this. They have few other options in November. America, Japan and Australia announced an alternative to the. Bri called the Blue Dot network to fund infrastructure projects in the developing world. But as with multilateral lenders such as the World Bank the financial muscle behind it looks puny in comparison. The BRI has the best promise of meeting. Glaring infrastructure gaps in the Global Economy Mr. Gallagher says there's no global infrastructure surge without the B. R. I. But for the moment that boost, we'll have to wait. To follow all of the economists wide ranging coverage of Covid nineteen pandemic, how it swiftly reshaping our world visit economist Dot Com. Slash Corona virus. And finally for Pushkin. Lockdown was liberating. The poets spell an isolation eighteen thirty was the most productive period in his life. By the end of the summer of eighteen, thirty Alexander Pushkin was in a state of anguish and spleen, the news of cholera spreading from Asia into Russia was the least of his worries. His engagement was on the brink of breaking down his finances were under strain, and his ambivalent relationship with the czar was becoming untenable. Nicholas the first, a humorless and ruthless autocrat had begun his reign by executing five hours Democrats who had led the December stop rising against him in eighteen, twenty, five, another one hundred twenty conspirators were exiled to the far reaches of the Russian Empire. Many were close friends of Pushkin. He had himself being exiled to his mother's estate. A year earlier on account of his atheist ideas had he been instant Petersburg he would have been among the rebels. He candidly acknowledged when summoned to meet the saw. Releasing and pardoning the country's most popular poet was meant to mollify the Russian elite. Nicholas also plans to actors Pushkin's patron and personal sensor in place of the regular one. In practice pushkin hat to clear every piece of writing with the czar and endure the attentions of Count Alexander Bankin Dolf, the founder of Russia's secret police. Pushkin felt suffocated and restless. He requested permission to travel to Europe or China or anywhere else, but was invariably turned down. A short trip to the war in the Caucasus in Russia, the favourite danger zone of the romantic age resulted in a humiliating rebuke from Benkin, dove. These political tensions were jeopardizing. His wedding plans a thirty. Pushkin longed for a private family. Life shielded from both the state and his admirers. If that impulse violated, the romantic notion of the poet is heartbroken. loaner suited his view of literature as a profession. But his perspective mother-in-law was nervous about marrying her beautiful seventeen year old daughter Natalia Goncharova to a man under surveillance. At Pushkin's request bank indoor wrote to say he was merely giving friendly council to the poet, not snooping on him. Still, there was another hurdle. Elliot's mother insisted on dowry, and since her finances were in disarray, the groom would have to provide it but Pushkin who made his living by his pen had no spare funds to indulge her pride. Amid these dramas, he was obliged to travel to Nizhny Novgorod province, two hundred and fifty miles east of Moscow to take formal possession of ball, Dino, a smaller state where his grandfather had lived, and which was now a wedding present from his father. Just before he set out, and after a nasty run in with Natalia's mother, he told his friend and publisher Poto let me off that he felt sad and tormented the life of a thirty year old fiancee's worse than thirty years in the life of a Gambler, devil possessed me to think about happiness as though I am made for it. He faced one final source of frustration. Autumn was Pushkin's favorite and most productive season. It was when he wrote best now it seemed he would spend preparing for a wedding. That might never happen on September first. He left Moscow, expecting to be back in a couple of weeks. His muses must have been smiling. Pushkin travelled light, taking a few manuscripts and volume of English verse, containing dramatic scenes by Barry Cornwall an English poet, whose real name was Brian, proctor and John Wilson a Scott. After three days he arrived at Bowl Dino an eighteenth century estate surrounded by monotonous Woodley's step dotted with poor peasant dwellings, plus a graveyard spiked with dark wooden crosses. He planned to stay no longer than he had to. Five days later on September ninth eighteen thirty, he found himself in lockdown. The cholera epidemic had reached Nizhny Novgorod province and the area was cordoned off to stop it spreading. Suddenly Pushkin felt. And relieved all his prior anguish and its causes receded. My dark thoughts of dissipated I am now in the country and enjoying myself. He wrote to plant me off. You cannot imagine how joyous it is to run away from fiance and to sit here and write poetry. You can ride horses as much as you want right at home as much as you please and be disturbed by no one. That day he wrote the undertaker, a grotesque short story about a coffin maker who invites his dead customers to a housewarming party? Pushkin was playful mischievous. He hung out with peasant girls and went to the local church to deliver a prank sermon. The cholera has been sent to you brothers because you don't pay your levies and drink too much. He told the peasants. If you carry on like this, you will be whipped all men. Stuck, behind several quarantine cordons besieged by raging disease. Plays Your legal song a confirmed he felt as free and as happy as he ever had. The three months he spent at. With the most productive in his life, he at last to finish Eugene on Yagan an ingenious novel in verse that he had been working on for seven years and would become a classic of Russian literature. As well as a series of dramatic sketches based on the British efforts. He had brought with him which he entitled little. Tragedies. Pushkin, who would never be allowed to travel outside? Russia and was now stranded in the countryside amid rain, snow and mud up to your knees, leapt across historical epochs, countries in Genera from the medieval French tar in the miserly Knight to Vienna in Mozart and salary, the stone guest swept from the gates of Madrid to the balcony of one of dong-hawn's lovers, where in James falen translation, the night of Laurel and lemon smells the moon, all gleaming in the deep and dark blue, the watchman, calling out his long. All's well. STOSKOPF ski put it Pushkin was able to accommodate the geniuses of other nations within his soul as if they were his own. This surge of creativity was not doing need to his escape from nagging concerns, the threat of cholera and the risk of death exhilerated him. As your allotment and literary scholar explained for a generation of Russian aristocrats born in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, shaped by Romanticism and inspired by the Napoleonic wars and European revolutions death was associated with Youth and bravery rather than old age and illness. Wounds were subject of envy rather than pity. Lockman wrote of Pushkin's time. In an era and a country in which surveillance censorship and humiliation with the norm, the risk of being killed by an enemy bullet. In a natural disaster offered a perverse prospect of dignity and freedom. The two things Pushkin valued most. This sense of personal liberty in defiance is the Leitmotif of a feast during the plague the last and shortest of the little tragedies that he wrote at Bowl Dino. He introduced. The piece is an excerpt from Wilson's tragedy, the city of the plague. Set in London. During the pestilent summer of sixteen, Sixty five, Wilson's play Paints Morbid picture of an empty city traversed by a miserable cart heaped up with human bodies. Pushkin however focused on a single scene in which a group of youngsters house in a spontaneous street party and toast diseased friend. The centerpiece is a him of Pushkin's own devising dedicated by the master of revels to the plague, which has already claimed the characters, wife and mother. There's rapture on the battleground, and where the black abyss is found, and on the raging ocean main the stormy ways of death, and in the desert hurricane, and in the plagues pernicious breath. For All that threatens to destroy conceals, a strange and savage joy, perhaps for mortal man aglow, that promises eternal life and happy, he who comes to know this rapture found in storm and strife. SIP the, Rosie, maiden, wine and kiss the lips where playing may lie. His confinement was over the poet, finally married Natalia in eighteen, thirty seven, after his brother-in-law tried to seduce her. Pushkin would be killed in a duel, but he did not have a death. Wish exactly rather the proximity of death made him feel alive. When a second wave of cholera struck in eighteen, thirty, one pushkin was on honeymoon in Dilek imperial residence near Saint Petersburg. From there. He wrote again to let me off. Who was succumbing to depression? Spleen is worse than cholera. The one only kills the body. The author kills the soul. Life is still rich. Your daughter will grow and turn into a bride. We will turn into old fogies. Our wives into old grunts that our children will be nice. The caller will pass, and should we still be alive? We will also have joy. Thanks for listening to editor's picks to read or listen to the whole of this week's edition Goto economist Dot, com slash podcast offer. I'm Helen Joyce and in London. This is the economist.

China America Alexander Pushkin Mr Fluids officer Alexander Pushkin Pushkin pushkin George Floyd Asia BRI Mr Trump Helen Joyce editor Jinping Camden World Bank Natalia Goncharova
Bonus: Parag Khanna on global connectivity

The TED Interview

38:19 min | 1 year ago

Bonus: Parag Khanna on global connectivity

"Hello Chris Anderson here. I have some good news third. Season is coming your way soon it premiers on October ninth and we have a really exciting waiting list of speakers coming up starting with the psychologist Daniel Gilbert consciousness researcher an seth and the wonderful author Elif Shattuck today sharing a bonus episode recorded earlier this year and here we go this is Chris Anderson Walk into the Ted Interview podcast series where I get to sit down with Ted Speaker and unjust dive much deeper into their ideas and it's possible during a short tedtalk today on the show Rog Kana and a different different way to think about globalism peroxy doesn't look at a map the way must people do. He doesn't see world of two hundred countries defined by the sovereign rim borders. He sees a world of physical connections that more often than not transcend. Those borders mega-cities connected by roads railways is trade routes fiber optic cables. This is what he calls. Connect talk griffey connect dog. He represents a quantum leap in the mobility of people resources ideas but it is an evolution and evolution of the world from from political geography which is how we legally divide the world to functional geography just how we actually use the world parag advocates this kind of thinking will revolutionize how countries and governments organize themselves in the future that continued globalization station is absolutely essential and the centers of influence are shifting profoundly and irreversibly to the East parague and I had a wide ranging conversation on the implications of this worldview and whether it can survive the current pushback against globalism in all its forms. It's rare. You meet someone who so certain of his views. I almost thought he was going to stop pounding the table at one point at any rate for anyone trying to understand what is coming the issues. Parag grazes are absolutely key so without further ADO Parag Khanna so parague welcome. Thanks so much that's Chris so willing to have a delicious conversation. I think really about how to think about the world quite important topic or approach indeed. Did I think this affects not just you know how he read the news. How we understand or think about future goes to things about. Do we feel hopeful about what was to come or do. We dread it but before we go there. I just want to go back a bit to you because there was an incident a US a teenager that helped shape some of your worldview. Tell me about that. Oh not an incident but I would say a world historical event when the Berlin Wall fell November nineteen nine for my parents my dad had visited the Germany a number of times and even live there as an exchange student on business kind of apprenticeship and he and my mom took my brother and me got on a plane in and we flew to Germany and we went to Berlin and as you know Chris the Berlin Wall was actually one hundred something kilometers of concrete. It wasn't just that one slab in front of the Brandenburg Gate where Ronald Reagan went and stood and said Mister Gorbachev tear down this wall a few years earlier it was big so it was still there of course took years to take it all down so I got my hammer in my chisel rented one for five tomorrow and I hammered away and I took pieces and distributed into the eighth grade class. Basically that moment everything that has done since you know. Let's say thirty years. Kinda comes back to that day because what was going on in your head was something like this. Boorda clearly made in a sense this was crazy. This was this was blocking so much that shouldn't have been blocked that would be like the kind of moral insight that I didn't have the time it was more that I am getting to live geopolitical change and geopolitical change. Your political complexity exit is is everything that it's what I eat sleep and breathe. It's all I care about. My Life's work can be described in the words geopolitical complexity. That's what I'm out to do. Tell us about that chore. Maybe many people take for granted that they think that the most fundamental way of organizing ourselves as according to nations and borders but that wouldn't be true necessarily of young people the age of in this case you know my children or or the the global youth they really have a different outlook and to me what I'm saying it should be fairly obvious to them that connectivity and connectedness and your degree of connectedness whether it's digital digital or physical your ease of mobility by airlines or you know how many facebook friends who have whatever is as much part of who you are and who you feel you are then the country you live in and the arbitrary notion that your ethnicity or your nationality defines you entirely one of the striking things you you didn't talk was just say hello just take a look at the world from space. Look at the satellite view of the world. What do you see you do not say political borders. What do you see what you see. Largely is is connectivity. UC urbanization you see cities the fact that the majority of the world's population lives in cities the satellite map of the world or the astronauts you the world shows you those lights at night that really represents not only how we have voluntarily decided to distribute ourselves around the world which is to say to live in cities and to live near bodies of water in the latter being a biological necessity the former being a human choice and one of the things that I think is deep in the message that I again again. Think is fairly normal is that can activity to other people is deeply part of who we are and now we physically doing it. We are you can map it and show how how important that infrastructure is our to make human life as it is possible and so. I think you're arguing that you know when you when you look at a political border I mean in a way that divides two territories but that more significant than that Boorda other number of things that are crossing. You pointed to lots of things from what there are roads. Is there a rail lines their their fiber optic cables that allow in a massive amounts of communication. There's there's airplanes shuttling people to and fro the more aw significant thing to look understanding. It's like you might have to big cities on opposite sides of our border that are inherently linked and how they what are the lives dependent on the life of the other cities totally like is it. Is it really economic trade. That has been the biggest driver of these connections between territories or very very often. Yes it could could also be though ethnic kinship so the notion that you know ethnicity and the tribe defines who you are and therefore your neighbor is the other is not actually true. Chris for the majority of the world's population because as you well know so many borders arbitrary that they cut ethnicities off from each other as you know my wife is from Pakistan and I'm I'm from India where both Punjabi my family fled from. Kosovo called Pakistan to India and it was created in nineteen forty seven. Her family fled from India to Pakistan. We're identical people so again. The notion that that other is actually different is ludicrous. It's the border that is so fake and arbitrary because it divided that unit that we you think of a so fundamental so borders criminal in in two ways in that sense so this worldview certainly as expressed in that Ted talk from twenty sixteen. I'm pretty optimistic. View would say but since that talk there have been two I would say like giant challenges to that view you know the rise of anti-globalization mindsets they were always there but a lot of us didn't pay enough attention to them and Brexit the rise of trump etc that really challenged the sense that this was unstoppable that this was an unalloyed good the thing and then the second one is what happened to technology itself where whether it's been a real shift in public opinion about you know the the sort of the dark side of technology. I what kind of to to on both those pushbacks I mean the first is the easiest and most open and shut case to deal with because there is no such thing Chris as an actual antiglobalization movement. You may call it. That trump may call it that he may say. I'm a nationalist not a globalist. People may write books about it false. There was a so-called antiglobalization movement in the nineteen nineties right those were the people who are protesting against the World Trade Organization further global trade liberalisation in this kind of thing. That is not what you see today. Let's be obsolete clear that trump and brexit are about criticizing and protesting the failure of their own governments to manage globalization. They are not anti-globalization the the soybean farmers of America. The lobster export is of America the micro chip in semiconductor exports of America you name it are not against what was Asian. No one wants a more expensive pair of jeans or more expensive iphone right but people do want jobs. If you take the word and you connected take all these incredibly low friction things like fiber optic cables like container ships like you know what you are doing. What deliberately are not. Is your making making it possible for someone eight thousand miles away to take your job because they can do what you were doing much more efficiently and then and then send it to your country. I mean that has been in a powerful driver of resentment. I mean hasn't that actually been a transfer of jobs from America from the West to parts of Asia Asia especially. Let's take worker X. In America who lost his job in an automobile plant because it was outsource to Thailand and worker why in Germany armony to whom the exact same thing happened. Why is it that the worker voted for trump and and is unemployed worker. Y in Germany is happily working in another job. he was upskilled by the government between the difference between the two is not wanNA smarter than the other because obviously the self defeating hyper-nationalist isolationist is policies of trump are not anything that people look up to and other governments of the world and meanwhile. They're still that unemployed guy. Which government would you rather have as your government. The one that invested in re-skilling Skilling its workers are the ones that didn't because we can go back to the nineteen seventies when government started investing in trade adjustment assistance for their workers and we can measure exactly which governments did it and which governments spend two to three percent of their budget way countries like Denmark do versus those. That's been nothing on it. which is the United States governor again? Whose fault is it is not China salt does not Thailand's fault it is Washington's fault and so if I were that unemployed guy in Detroit I would vote for trump trump too. I absolutely would it's not because I hate China because I'm so mad that for forty years no one trained me to do a new job right but but I still think it's sad to say that many people missed the level of fear and anger that was building as a result of the sort of Ma massive that shifted in how the world's what forces were organized. You can understand what's perceived by many people as this dangerous scary Gary Full. I not only understand it. I've deep sympathies for which is why I and people far more plugged in and influential and focused on the issue than I am advocate advocate the correct remedies policies none of which involve placing no tariffs on Chinese goods that therefore raised the cost to those unemployed people to to buy stuff at Walmart right. It's counter productive in every possible respect. I think that someone who's lost. Their job. Actually knows who is to blame by the way they go may go to trump Browley and because they blame you know previous administrations plural for not having done the things that are needed for them to to maintain a high standard of living and and by the way I'm not for on a Lloyd unfiltered free markets and globalization. The central operating principle in my work is what I call flow versus friction in every every country has to figure out what's the right volume or degree of flow and friction in every category of its foreign relations and America has gotten a lot of those right by advocating for free trade. It's helped it's companies be the greatest beneficiaries. I mean what are the largest companies in the world after all Chris Right there American technology firms and financial institutions but it is the job album the American government to figure out how to redistribute that how to tax that how to do investments savings and not all countries do it as badly as America and Britain have put in addition to the economic piece. There are legitimate concerns around how fast coaches can integrate like how wise is it to have wide open borders you know mass immigration and so forth given how complex humans are how how different are cultural values there there are surely legitimate dangers in accelerated which is not it's not wise at all to have just unfettered mass immigration. Asian look at the consequences in the cultural reactions to them again flow and friction. You have to do it in a way such that. Your population continues to accept it so to speak Germany place. I've lived many times. They were sort of applauded for having led an emir million refugees on the last couple of years in particular but then it got to be too much right so either. Are you rapidly integrate them in some way assimilate them or you don't but let's also go back to the economic point which is that every society has a supply and demand issue around demographics if a country is not giving birth to more children. It's going to need more immigrants them so just because there's an anti-immigrant backlash somewhere whether it's America or whether it's Germany that it doesn't mean the right position to have so Europe doesn't have an immigration problem. It has an assimilation problem by the numbers. It must have more immigrants. It's it must the question is can assimilate them well which is really up to it do instinct well. Let's let's switch to the other globally connecting techno optimistic were we ran into which is technology itself at one point. It was possible to say hey you know. FACEBOOK is connecting the world has billions of people who have accounts suddenly we can all be friends carly. What's your take on on the big tech pushback this happened so the Internet is connecting the world and telephony anthony is connecting the world and facebook might be one sort of particular barometer metric of how people connect some of the time right but it would be inaccurate for it to use a backlash against facebook so to speak as a symbol that people are concerned and don't like technological connectivity that would be nonsense right in part of it is the fact that we do learn so much and we do reduce our costs right and have access to global knowledge from being able to be connected without ever having having to leave our homes so you can learn Chinese by just having a skype buddy in China and multiply that by billions and that's actually what is happening so again if you look get facebook and manipulation of fake news and viral rumors that have obviously contributed to the US election tipped and even to violent bloody murderous murderous campaigns against ethnic minorities in India or in Myanmar part of what is maintaining the support for this technological connectivity activity in again. The vast majority of the world's population is because they can watch and see how we had too much flow and not enough friction right not enough regulation not enough control troll not enough saying hey if there's fake news that has to be taken down immediately and they're watching that in India for example which having the biggest election in the world as every Indian election election is coming up this year and they're saying you know what we're the biggest country facebook users on earth. We clearly benefit from it just as facebook you know their revenue sort of revenue growth is an Indian Asia. It's it's extraordinary but the Indian government has said if you want to continue to operate here during our election you better hire hundreds if not thousands of people to monitor filter the content on WHATSAPP facebook and so forth so that we don't suffer the downside of this activity so again flow and friction allow the flows allow the connectivity allow the conversation but friction when it comes to fake news monitored regulated delete it so what the Indian government did that was wise in your view. I mean what would be your advice to the Tech Companies Mall More broadly. There are certain aspects that you have to comply with if they say that you have of data localization right you have to physically store data you have to have your servers on shore and so forth otherwise you can't operate in this market you have to make a decision you know is it better to be in that market kid and to allow for all of the benefits that accrue tangible and intangible to those populations or not you clearly see. Most companies are saying yes. You know it's better to be in the market at the not. An analogy that you can also relate to is just publishing. I mean my books get redacted. They get censored. If I don't accept those reductions or tech that company doesn't accept the restrictions that how will it ever get to communicate with those people and allow them to get the additional information that would otherwise not get to be the the narrative around technology will shift over the next year so the back to more positive they will respond in some ways and that people will remember the upside benefits they get from. We'll I just have to challenge the assumption because again we all experience everyday and benefit from the productivity gains the access to information and so forth what you're referring to is that you know there is a pile on effect where everyone wants to be the senator or congressman who attacks Mark Zuckerberg but you're not actually claiming. I don't think that the majority of the American population has turned anti tech. I mean that would be preposterous. However it would be sad if we were really throwing the baby out with the bathwater given that these technologies he's were invented in America right and again. We do benefit so much. Maybe what we should do. Instead is to stop whether your critic or not stop appreciate and quantify as I try to do just in which ways we benefit every city hall every City Council every mayor every congressman now has a facebook page rather than the Halcion all seon good old days where you have to call your congressman to make a complaint and of course no one answered today they respond they have to they get the message that says fix this. We're complaining with this. You can't claim you didn't get the email or the facebook message so let's be truthful honest and holistic about what constitutes the role of technology technology in our society in its way broader way better than we think about when we just make these narrow critiques anything that can be a difference between what people do and down the narrative that they have about it and certainly the narrative that has been blowing up the last couple of years. Is that holy crap. This stuff is has gone wrong young in many ways that we did not see coming and we don't like but I think even even beyond that narrative that I think the fundamental question that a lot of people in the West I worry about is doesn't unexpected sort of stress of all the connectivity that we're kind of addicted to it a lot of us and I asked for a show of hands of the few years ago about if you had to choose between letting go of the internet or indoor plumbing which which would go to two thirds or serve the audience would let go of indoor plumbing. I possibly because because they figured they could google. You know how to dig your own toilet. Flush the toilet too much anyway. It's better for the environment. I wonder whether I want to go now like I suspect it might it might have swung the other way at least temporarily even though I sometimes hate it often hated. I couldn't imagine a life without that connectivity as you know more people in India yeah mobile mobile phones and have access to toilets so clearly humanity is speaking. It's choice at some degree and obviously the answer is both at and right at the end of the day we want we want both we don't ever sees and this to me was the most fun part of all the research. I've done to just dig deep into the last you know million million years of human history. It is our human instinct. It is our impulse to want to be connected. ooh ooh so. Let's talk a bit about your new book in your New Thinking so you've got this new book out called the future is Asian. What do you mean by that. The point of this book was to say that Asia is much bigger than just China and that's a big gaping hole in the literature. We have twenty the years of books that purport to be about Asia but are basically just about China and there's an assumption that Asia is basically you know whatever China wants China gets what it wants. It gets what it wants is everywhere in the world and certainly in its own neighborhood so who cares what those other people think but the history of Asia is four plus thousand years of rich distinct into vibrant civilizations dozens of them that have actually done a very good job of maintaining their independence from China so I wanted to bring life to the Southeast Asian civilizations Persian civilization Indians civilize ation and so on and so forth and to show how they have over Millennia of silk roads had these patterns of commerce conflict and culture in their interactions with each other that actually is a very natural state of affairs for Asia which chits returning and why does it matter. We'll Chris. We're talking about five billion people so the demographic piece is pretty well known that is where the people are but there's. There's probably an unquestioned assumption a lot of people in the West that still the majority of economic action is I mean America's still by some measures the world's else largest economy strongest military and that culturally in many ways the West still leads the world. What do you mean by the future divide. The West. I talked about the world. Being European is in the Nineteenth Century Americanized in the twentieth century in Asia is the twenty first century. The impact of Europe in the world is as deep as has profound is what America achieved the twenty century because if you think about the Europeanisation of the world through colonialism it gave the world though the the boundaries that it has today it gave save much of the world you know European languages that they speak the parliamentary systems that they have inherited from the British empire and so forth and of course enlightenment values and so forth so so the Europeanisation of the world still has a profound impact a lasting impact then there's the Americanization of the world in the in the twentieth century the spread of Democracy Freedom the love of entrepreneurialism realism the soft power of America. All those things are profoundly baked into so much of the world today and all I'm saying that there's a new layer and one civilization does not displaced destroy and bury its predecessors. They add a new layer of richness right. It's just a new layer of soil that is fertilizing right our global society and that's what Asia is doing and so whether it is the number of people who are learning Chinese or going to study in China whether it is the visibility of Bollywood Hollywood movies and K pop music whether it is yoga meditation and mindfulness and of course the spread of Asian people as Diasporas all over the world right the number one source of new citizens every year in the United States is Asians. Not Latinos right so the Asian Association of the world is not a challenge culturally to the it's just a new layer and of course it's happening so you so you talk about Asianisation in general. What does that feel like so for example? Take A kid growing up in New York City today or even even in Colorado where the learning Chinese has displaced Spanish as the top language of choice for for second language study so you actually grow up learning Chinese on the side right then when it comes to your backpacking you don't just go to Europe you decide. I'm going to go backpack around Southeast Asia instead then when it comes time to go to college realize well actually these great great American universities like Yale or MIT. NYU have campuses in Abu Dhabi and Shanghai and Singapore so I guess I'll just go there after all their subsidize actually she cheaper than studying in the United States but get my American education then I want to join a startup however that startups biggest market is Asia right. They really want to sell their APPs and Technology Indonesia Indonesia so it looks like my first job is going to be in Jakarta so that's just a composite generic example but I can name you. Hundreds of people who've gone through exactly that pattern the ones I write about so again you and I are of a certain age young Americans today who were growing up were teenagers they already live in a world in which Asia's a huge part of their consciousness. That's all to think that more people in Asia are actually adopting being Asian as part of their identity. Asia itself is not that isn't a term that was invented by Asians and you can let goes it goes back. there is no reason a label on a part of the work so so. I'm so glad you mentioned it. So people's identity isn't like traditionally has not been. I'm Asian it. It might have been you know I am Tibetan or Vietnamese. I need still very much. Is these rich historical civilizations that have each viewed themselves as the center of the universe. Why would they also even bother other to invent a term for this geography that they didn't even measure or quantify our map until Europe gave it a name that they also use so. Is there a new new layer of Asian identity on top of the fact that I'm Indian or Chinese or Persian or Turkish. The answer is becoming yes and the reason by the way that it's not the first time in history right again you think about the silk roads it existed five hundred years ago before colonialism a thousand years ago fifteen hundred years ago. Asians had a sense of their common interactions with the spread of cultural learning the spread of religion like Buddhism for example of an all of these principles jason and values circulation across Asians that happened for Millennia no Chinese persons in say yeah. I'm Asian not Chinese but is there a resurgence urgence of a certain kind of Pan Asian identity and even pride absolutely Chris. You live in Singapore talk about how people pulled who you interact with and Singapore now elsewhere in Asia how conscious they are of this time. I mean without a doubt everywhere I go in Asia. That's what you hear and by the way it's not about how rich you are how poor you are right. It's about your momentum. It's the sense that we're getting there and we know how to get there and everything that we could could learn from the past experience of Western dominance or tutelage. We is Baked Newark present model which just GonNa take a matter of time either faster slow but we'll get there. We'll be hyper modern look how the Chinese did it. The Japanese did it before them and the Koreans and when we WANNA be a smart city we look at Singapore or we look at you know Hong Kong or soul or whatever so Asians have much at this point more to learn from each other than they do from the rest of the world and again. There's so much evidence of this. You can see it in their diplomacy in the number of new institutions and and cross-border investment the merging of stock exchanges the number of tourists and business travellers and students of all. They're just crisscrossing. Learn each other's languages trading with each other at breakneck pace prog. One of the criticisms of some veal writing has been that in your in your excitement about what's happened in the recent sort of Asian gross story stories that you haven't paid enough attention to the price paid for that sometimes in particular the sort of extreme authoritarian measures taken by some governments including Singapore where you live. How do you think about that. You've got democracy in the West. That's many many issues exposed. I guess in recent years you've got governments in Asia Asia many of which have shown incredible effectiveness in most measures of of development and I would even say competency but also some dark things things going on right does the price of progress justify a certain level of authoritarian ruthlessness will authoritarian ruthlessness is not and should not on the necessary for progress. It certainly hasn't been in Norway right for for example or or Iceland for that matter. This is a very common debate in Asia among countries countries. Do we have to be like the Chinese government in order to achieve what China has any answer is. No one should be more disciplined right in terms of execution which there is a decision session when there was a decision that Indian people should have universal basic income or universal healthcare will then go and do it right. That's a good thing for the people to have. Don't be corrupt about the way India is that every possible level of governance right but shouldn't be authoritarian no again authoritarianism has existed around the world. It's acute in in some major. Asian powers like China but let's be clear that a more Asians live in democracies than live in non democracies in the next six months India Indonesia Philippines and Thailand are all having elections. That's one point eight billion people. We need to have a system. I call direct democracy walkers. The I actually advocate that every citizen on Earth Age sixteen and up in every country should have the right to vote and should issued almost mandatory but do you have a leadership. That's actually she going to get things done and Chris again. We're talking about billions of poor people in Asia. They WanNa see you know again healthcare they wanna see better educational system. They WANNA see drugs off their streets. Someone's someone's gotTa do it and I don't sympathise the principle of authoritarianism but I in my writing and in my travels in my interviews in my research I go to talk to ordinary. Indians and Filipinos in Nizhny and I understand and I relate to the reader. Why do they like these leaders and that's important for us to understand so so. Let's think about the future like where do you see the world heading. I think you you you call yourself. A functional optimistic turn accidents accidental laxness. Yes whether it's optimistic or pessimistic. I think we should accept certain trends that I think are fairly irreversible right again. We continue to build out all all this connectivity you know the world's largest coordinated infrastructure investment plan is rolling out the belt and road initiative and it's not just China though China started everyone. Everyone is getting involved in infrastructure finance. Every country is getting more connected to every other country after brexit. Britain is on a on a mission to get more connected. Let's be absolutely are so whether you claim that your country is against an activity or a backlash against globalization once you realize and suffer of from from cutting off your activity you double down and go back to it so I see the world getting more connected but let's be clear. There's very you know the the world's. Regional Systems Systems are getting more deeply connected to each other so like I said Asians are trading more with each other. Your Asia is becoming more and more connected and even integrated mega continent it is the largest in Europe is desperate to have more free trade agreements with Southeast Asia with India with Japan. They are doing more of these activity initiatives. They trade billions hundreds of billions more of Asia than America does so you're Asia's that's again Utah. What does the future look like. It's going to be quite Eurasian. It's going to clearly be the center of gravity in the world in the future and I don't see any turning back from that. What is the right way to run that world. I mean should should we have in the future. Should we world where the Mez of mega-cities biggest cities have more power than currently that maybe there are key international organizations decision making the bodies that have power and and current national governments should have less power than than currently has the right future. I don't want to sort of engage in and should because I think that you know there is a certain dynamic evolution. That's underway right now. National governments matter a lot. The United States matters a plot. The European Union is a regulatory power. They all seek to govern obviously their own domestic affairs and make their own rules and even to export their rules internationally whether it is again European regulations around data protection for example but then there's also a layer of international governance right the norms and the codes of the World Trade Organization sation or Commission on Human Rights Council in this kind of thing and then there's the cities as well which increasingly help govern national governments decide what's best for their country country right and so again the London view of Brexit contrasts quite considerably with the kind of hinterland view of brexit right so cities are playing a greater and greater role in shaping national policy and International Policy so therefore you know when you posit the question is sort of should this be more powerful nappy more powerful than that well actually they're really already influencing each other to a considerable degree and what we have today is the net result of that mishmash infusion of competing and cooperating layers of authority and that's in a way what should be is what is and what is becoming and all of that plays out at different rates or scales in North America versus Europe versus Africa versus Asia. That's that's the world we live in. What will look like twenty thirty years actually again if the pop world population is only me going to be ten billion people and it's going to be spread across these key bourbon and densely populated Hobson areas. There's going to be a real global war for talent. It's like the antithesis of the presumption that the reliving this populist xenophobic moment cities that have all this wonderful infrastructure right are going to be competing to have millennials and young people come and live in their city because it'll only be a world of ten billion people in what meaning will a city or a country have if it doesn't have people coming in and young people staying there to work there and to make it a great society a Wolf Italian to then perhaps questions concerns about the people who are less talented and still have to survive somehow and a good government will take care of them as a government should today. I've often I've had this conversation with some of my American and British friends last years when they've been down about the world and bleak about so much and kind of said you know that that's the parochial attitude if you spend some time in Mumbai or Shanghai or any of thousand of the places is that aren't the West. You're very different feeling you'll see. Almost everyone feeling the got a pretty good. They've certainly got a better than their parents had it and they have hopes that their children will have a better life still and it's amazing actually how many people even people in the West. Maybe don't see that can actually get joy from that that I mean. We're all humans after all and if you think well wait a minute maybe actually five billion people in the world really are rising. If you can take the title view book the future is Asian as being an. I'm you know we're all part of the same team viewed one way. You can get at least some joy from that. I think I'm glad that you would the IRA or trying to win converts in the same way. I certainly I'm as well it is. It's one conversation at a time Chris. it really is so prerogative was one one idea that you could seed into the minds of seven eight nine ten billion people. What would that idea be a single idea. I I love to corrupt the minds of the world. I you know celebrate mobility you know I'm probably benefited from it as much as any human being can and I think it's extremely extremely important as a component of a young person's resilience today is to be mobile because you really don't know where the job is going to be for you where the right place to be educated. It is for you where you're right. Life partner is going to be an if you're not connected and you're not mobile than you are. Cut off from fulfilling your your dreams your ambitions nations reaching their full potential so if they're to universal virtues if you will that a person ideally has in order to make the most of their life it would be you to have some degree of connectivity you know to be able to choose whether or not they're drowning in it or you know a sort of exploiting it and to be mobile that is the way already the world's you think you know there's no such thing even as global citizenship and yet they're growing percentages of young people in rich countries poor countries north. South East West all feel that way so I actually think again pretty clear evidence that we're moving into that world. Well thank you for this conversation in Prague. It's been really great talking with you thank you. Uh parague connor is a global strategist and the author of the future is Asian occasion communist conflict and Culture in the twentieth century. He joined us on the Ted Stage in two thousand nine and two thousand sixteen as as tech's events. You can listen his Ted talks at Ted. Dot Com this week's show was produced by Meghan. Tan production production manager is Roxanne High Lash Mix Engineer David Herman. The music is by Alison Brown special. Thanks to my colleague Michelle Quinn. If you like this show please write us on itunes. We love to hear your thoughts also consider sharing it with anyone interested in the future of the world. I'm Chris Anderson. Thanks so much for listening.

Asia Chris America China India United States FACEBOOK Europe Germany Ted Speaker World Trade Organization Chris Anderson Southeast Asia Parag Khanna Brandenburg Gate brexit Chris Right Berlin trump griffey
Archaeobotany

Two Friends Talk History

39:31 min | 2 months ago

Archaeobotany

"Hello and welcome to two friends. Talk history a podcast where two friends have coffee and talk about history my name. I'm a public historian. Fascinated by the excavation of history from researchers practitioners academics. More in each episode. I invite a guest to discuss an aspect of history that they're involved with and why it matters in the section so what. I'm so glad you joining me on this journey. As a way of thanking members for their support by joining us on patron i offer members only content including extras like downloadable episode art maps and contextual images members have access to one hundred word histories don notable learning materials shouts and more offer the cost of a pint or a flat white a month. Sign up today at patriotair dot com slash artist. Your support keeps this rickety wagon of dreams going. Why i'm so pleased introduced my good friend. Guest alexandros lucky. We met several years ago while on field skull for the economy project in southern italy and we have shared so many adventures. I could not imagine a more knowledgeable and passionate powell to have a catch up with and discuss the archaeology of plants. Alex has a ba in politics and ancient history which we will return to because that is a fabulous combination from mount holyoke college. She flew across the world to complete a masters of museum and heritage studies from the university of sydney than once more into the fray for a masters of science in environmental archaeology at the university. College london where she is currently finishing that up and this is where we catch up with her today. Alex welcome to france talk history. It is a pleasure to have you. It is a pleasure to be here. I am a big fan. I've listened to all of the episodes. Well thank you for somebody so young you have such incredible breadth of experience that i don't think we can contain it in one pod. So i think i'll be having you back for some of our more reckless and wild adventure stories but Do you have a lot of field. Experience from excavations as a student to work in commercial archeology and museum collections management. And they're all really aligned very well but they're quite different paths all of which very noble pursuits. But i've invited you here today to talk about archea botany and mostly because anytime i have brought up your studies to anybody. The their faces go from confused too fascinated and delighted so i thought like perfect. This is the type of topic. I think more people need to know about. Yeah i agree. And i think also the confusion is very real because sometimes when i explain things or explain things to my mother for the tenth time she still very confused So how about we start then with in general terms. What is so archea. Botany also called paleo. No botany typically north. America is a sub-field gentle archaeology. That analyzes plant remains preserved within the soils of archaeological sites. It is one of the three sub fields of environmental archaeology which is a scientific discipline within archaeological sciences that reconstruction studies the relationship between pass societies and the environments they lived in so it integrates biological chemical physical and the social sciences by sort of looking at history humanity and science as a whole and within this archea. Botany is specifically focused on plants. Awesome so what you guys are doing really is. You're taking seeds and other sort of evidently Remains and exploring the world through that lens so like an art historian would explore. You know the netherlands through still lifes as you know through the lens of painting. You guys are doing it through the lens of seeds and other Agricultural products and things like that. yeah so when. You're conducting fieldwork. Archaeologists encounter all sorts of material that can be analyzed data ceramics human remains and one thing that's actually found quite abundantly is plant remains so seeds charcoal paulin fighter lifts which are a silica deposits. That are in the form of plant tissues and they can be seen by the naked eye so those are called macaroni and so A peach pit for example. Ha when you eat a pay you eat a peach it's quite big peach pit It preserves the same and it looks the same. It's just black interest. Okay so what. I'm common things is keeble cook food. And in furnaces fires hearths material can get scattered about and he gets charred. It gets preserved really well and so that can be found on quite abundantly on archaeological sites also in other areas like the road famous. They've done excavation along via people throw their apple seeds. They're having a snack as they walked to work funds. It ends up in the road. People sweeping the entrance of houses. That's surround abundantly all the time even in bedrooms late night she snack. That's interesting europe. So you're pointing to look where it is not obvious to look like if you're if you're excavating and you're doing a section of road i mean of the things you expect to find. It probably isn't. The case was always food remains but you. You painted very clear. Word picture of you know ancient roman on his way to work or going in and out of town or you know a lady cleaning her domus sweeping it all out. Though i disagree with the practice of eating in ones bedroom. I do understand stuff. Yes and and also Within tombs people leave offerings remain. So actually king tut. When his team was sexcapades. They found tons of botanical material. I've actually had the pleasure of seeing. The original wreath was laid on the sarcophagus. It's actually at the economic. Botany collections and gardens. It's very fragile. You're not allowed to touch it but you can look at it and it's very beautiful so yeah people leave offerings All over the world Mexico's very common. Because you know plants are beautiful. And they're using a variety of ways. Flowers can be decorative but they also can be consumed that can be eaten. They can be used in medicines Drugs got so on fourth. Yeah absolutely oh. That's fascinating so on an archaeological site. I think we can all sort of imagine the general norms of excavation. Yeah it's digging sieving it's documentation. Where does the rq botanist fit into that. That is the first port of call for gathering the the remains that. You're going to be analyzing and labs later on. How does the rq botanist work on an excavation so they can do two things. So i think all field. Archaeologists should have done base level of training of identifying fragile remains. Whether they're very small animal bones or human remains as well as botanical. So i think there needs to be a little bit of a delicate training at all levels and because of that It will allow you if you identify charcoal for example to handle the material very carefully and therefore excavate it and take a soil sample which happens quite frequently when you're doing an excavation. They'll take soil samples along the way so they can do analysis in the soil. Oftentimes soil can actually help us understand preservation conditions so for example on commercial sites when they're kind of time and money as always they'll actually do a soil sample and so they can check what's the level of preservation so like at breath for example has notoriously acidic soil. So they know that sometimes when they're going to dig they're not gonna find a lot of material because just yeah. This is just eat away at things and that's just sort of the natural processes and so soil is probably the first thing that you have to start with but always taking oil samples is a common occurrence. It's a common occurrence to geology. Is a common occurrence patrol edgy. It's not just archaeology. But in archaeology we specifically use it to undergo a process called flotation with is basically a a process of buoyancy as a technique materials of different densities. So like saying you. Basically sieve material dirt through a water sample through screen. Oftentimes just like a window screen. You can buy them pretty cheaply panning for gold. Like in the yukon. Something like that. Exactly like i tell my my sister that it was sort of like a pasta trainer for getting rid of getting rid at the rocks because Destroyed the it on rocks. Unless you love them. We love geology. Here yes so you can separate lighter. Material succeeds and charcoal often. Sometimes light shells will float then heavier materials such as bone fragments or rocks or will sink. And so you actually get two separate material so that makes it much easier to then collect An once you get there you the process of sorting so this is typically like you're going to sort seeds look different than charcoal charcoal wood and seeds are plants and want to keep those field separate because a representative for things so would can be anything for lighting a fire in your kitchen so that you can make a tasty soup for dinner to building your house versus seeds could be you know the the residue from cooking dinner or grinding something or actually they go through the body and they are there they come out the other end and they are often found in latrines. I mean that. Is i very place. And it's it seems kind of gross but at the same time it's very part of the human experience it's interesting that the places like obviously like human body functions are associated with every level of taboo but in the longer view of history. They provide us with so much more information about the health and wellness of communities. That are even being used today. Like i recall Some work being done in ephesus based in different neighborhoods they were looking at what types of diseases and other things were localized to certain neighborhoods and then seeing if they could you know develop patterns and stuff like that from These samples but as well recently because of covid they have been doing that. Same process like manning through samples. Like what is the percentage of infection based on Stool samples so it's a it's a resource and i'm not gonna stick my nose up at it. Also i think i think actually you bring up a really incredible point with cova. Pastula's and famine is very difficult to study in historical and archeological record because it's an absence of data because especially for historical documents. You know when you're dying of the bluebonnets plague or get spanish influenza or covert nineteen. You're not really focused on journal writing so much not so much and so you can. You can within the absence. If you have a lack of material that actually can be something very interesting at an argue botanical studies. We called absence presence studies so interesting. Expect something to be there in their record. That is historically well documented. Such is like a grain for bread making and it's not something. I'm things off the food. Systems of networks have changed or internal. No-one's plowing the fields. Because they're dead. Yeah absolutely so that brings me to an interesting impact with arco. Botany within understanding. You know the the daily lives of ancient people and trading the perfect segue to that to me. It seems that this type of study offers a very nuanced but very important key between the different trade networks in different cultures and how people were coming together in ways. That aren't documented. Necessarily like we do. We can infer we do know even without written sources or images or anything that trade has been happening across the world for forever but it what form that took and what. The impact was is quite hard to quantify or understand without some something. You can trace back or something you can. You can analyze the spread and and it sounds to me like this is through argue about me. We can get a huge sense of what the ancient world was was doing with food. And and thus cultural shared practices and customs that were spreading. Yeah different and not just for food. I mean for medicine is a huge commodity. That's traded a textile. Some textiles are made often clint materials. Yeah nightmare animals flora and fauna. And so that is quite big also perfume cosmetics. This thing drugs drugs are very taboo subject alcohol but they play very important role particularly with religion and accessing defiant planes of understanding and existence. So these were all very valuable. Materials building material is another thing. So i think there's there's quite a lot of depth and i think when you're on an archaeological site and you're looking at seeds and that kind of a weird looking in your sort of you have to kind of broaden your imagination and realize that when you're looking at this it's not just the seed it's understanding the greater ecosystem that is connected to the object. And so you know as archaeology is the study of the material kosher of the past. Rpo botany environmental. Archaeology is the study of the bio cultural material of the past along. Because yeah actually. I think there's a really. There's a quote that starts The introduction to environmental archaeology textbook which is very fundamental and it says The human past cannot be understood without integrating the full range of evidence contained within archaeological sites and recognizing the cultural systems are inextricably linked to their environments. Now and i think that's really beautiful to me. People are products of their environments but they also shape the environments in which they live in so for trade. And that's exactly what it is. You are trading something that is valuable to your environment for someone else. That wants it or you're looking for something that you don't have that is a reflection on your environment. Yeah absolutely and the creation of identity and things like that can be done in so many different ways and community identities local identities regional identities and they become broader and broader or more narrow depending on. What the pressures and opportunities are around them. What's so interesting about the construction of identity in the ancient world as as in the modern is somebody else comes upon it and they integrated synthesize. It synchronize it. I think especially because you mentioned clothing and makeup perfumes. You're the beauty. Industry has to be such a huge driver for trade and change. Because you know it's not just women and men want to be beautiful and ornately dressed and you know show. Their status represent their culture but use the status symbols of another culture to do so. So it's fabulous and everything it's also it's it's connected back to health and medicine and sanitation very important and i think just because we're in such a weird time with health such on the forefront of the mind i mean it's the constant reminder of your health and how you take care of your body and what you put into your body or put on your body or adorn. It is fundamental your wellbeing whether psychologically mentally physically and and these are connected to biological products of the world. You know in the past and in the future today. Can you give an example or two of some of the wild plant stories that you've come across that you think people will be interested because i think from just conversations. I've had what we think people use plants for is not always the case. Is there anything that comes to mind. Yes so. I have to just finish dr about to finish my master's dissertation looking at central asian archea botany. I'm very passionate about silk. Roads at different points. Since it was very long and encompassing and one of the crops that i find fascinating that is not really thought about in. The modern world is rhubarb rhubarb. What do you think of pie exactly so so. Rhubarb is a vegetable that the stocks are consumed. You can't actually eat the leaves. Because they have an acidic quality that is actually quite toxics to humans so the doctor basically used in pies and sugaring processes jams It's very good as filler You kind of at abundance to a dish but rhubarb is actually a famous medicinal plant. What okay i'm listening. So so rhubarb been domesticated to cultivated. Plan it has different species but it typically comes from central asia. It's known or the coronary version of it is known to be domesticated tibet. It is used as a laxative as a stomach ailment. So typically the stems were ground and dried or dried ground and they would be made into essentially what i call the original version of pepco baseball for sting but also what was fascinating about it. Is it grows wonderfully in the step and in china but it doesn't grow super well in europe but it can but it's not the medicinal rhubarb. That was really desired. And so it was. Heavily traded in the medieval period particularly leading up to the bubonic plague and there is increasing research that the rats gerbils that spread bubonic plague from the fleas actually traveled in rhubarb plants to europe rhubarb. Cash schreyer. yes but what's also fascinating is. There's a great book called rhubarb. The the wonder drug and there's lion says that there's no medicinal plant that has perplexed and frustrated europeans. I mean there's so. Many documents from the medieval period of pharmacists said and dr surgeons who wanted to have access to this went. Because it's painless to take me doesn't have any side effects and it works super great but it was hard to get their hands on. It was hard to get their hands on. But i i thought about this really kind of further. And i remember. There was a line that my professor of silk roads. Tim williams at the institute of archaeology said and he said if the silk road was not called the silk road it would have been called the rhubarb road. It doesn't roll off the tongue. I think as as sort of intoxicating as the silk road but yeah traded quite abundantly and. i just think that's really fascinating but it's also fascinating. Because i think especially north america. A lot of people think. It's from north america because it actually grows really well but notes from central asia as many wonderful plants are from interesting. So that's i mean. I love the idea of the rhubarb road. And i think we should maybe try to rebrand. Obviously soak is important and not diminishing silk for anyone who studies silk so it's not vegan sucks not vegan. No it's not vegan and I am fascinated by the idea that rhubarb would be something you could take for all sorts of stomach and intestinal ailments. I might have to try and add more rhubarb to my life flight. Yeah i think also. I think it's really funny that it is commonly talked about as a laxative and that sort of invoked sort of embarrassing bodily. And you know we've talked about the taboos of the body but there is a lot of food that could really hurt. you sure. I mean people a rotting meat. The romans are famous for disguising meet with abundance of spices that was rotting and actually consume so much. Yeah if you consume so much can make quite sick and so having medication that can aleve stomach elements and many review of toxic substances. I would be quite valuable one. And there's one period of the middle ages resonates in my mind with is dysentry. Eddie dies of dysentry. And so i. It's a weird thing to like directly associate with historical period. But oh my goodness it is and yeah. I can imagine that the desire for rhubarb would be strong. That's yes that's one of my favorites plants that i think are really fascinating But one thing that i think particularly interest me is something called the post columbian exchange And so this is the movement of new world or the america's food to europe and asia and one thing that people don't always think about is chili pepper capsicum. There are five species. They all come from the americas all spicy food in the world. All spicy cuisine comes from the americas interesting. I would not have guessed that. Yes oh szechuan. Pepper corns which come from the szechuan region of china are probably the closest in terms of physical feeling. They critique numbing feeling but they're not quite the same as a different kind of chemical enzyme the so all spicy food. Actually the pepper. You know especially if you're that uses chili peppers. It's a direct result of the colonization of the americas that is fascinating and what an impact it has made a. Yeah no i mean. I don't think people quite understand the depth of how new world america america as i say north in central and south america and the caribbean these foods radically change the world. I mean corn is maize. It's the most grown crop in the world next tweet if they what about soy where does soy fit into that. Because i know it's huge soy's from china. No i mean in terms of like large crop. Outputs i think like soy has to be up there like it gets number four so i think it's i think it's either we first. And then corn maize. And then i think third is potatoes is sort of like starchy food. 'tatoes are delicious. They are delicious. Barley is very high up there not so consumed as much as a food but barley is fundamental to beer making yes to row naked. Barley is needed in the molting process. Barley is also very crop and drought resistant. So it grows really well in areas that have harsher climates. And so it's really important for places like russia handle the when the winter since. Oh it's those are crops. That are very important in the himalayas for example too. Nice so just to take a back for a second you know you studied classics. You've worked in commercial archaeology from those perspectives. You've obviously kind of not not shifted gears entirely but you've kind of entered a different discipline. What do you find the most interesting aspect of the study of this field. Like what if you were to come across somebody who had an interest in plants in their undergrad. What would you. What's your pitch to like. Why this is so interesting so for me. A really big dilemma. I had in archaeology in history is that i was constantly being pressured to focus a region a place time period. And this didn't really work for me. Because as i told you i love silkroad. I love the romans. I'm obsessed with ancient peru in the andes. I think australia's magnificent. I'm obsessed with it everywhere. It's really problematic. As many things that fascinate me. And so i struggled with focusing and what i realized is that i needed to find a skill not a place or time so archaeological sciences you at alternative if you are like me and you just love so many things and so i think the pitch for me is it gives me the unique and wondrous opportunity to have diversity in my research and i think for the academics that i really admire and my adviser who actually went to ucla to study with dorian. Fuller is his cv his publication record spans the entire globe across time from that served its spectacular from the new olympic revolution to today. And i think for me. He is not bound by any one thing. He rather study something that i lacked. Call universal but personal. I am fascinated by things that are part of the human experience that all living creatures need but yet very personal to every place time or personnel region and to me setting plants fascinating. Because i love food. I love sitting alcoho- love sitting medicine. Food and flavor and taste is very unique to every person we all have our own taste and flavors and cultural influences in regions and time periods. But yet we all have to eat enough for me. I just think that there's something very beautiful about that. And also i've never been able to have a conversation with anyone on earth because everyone's talking about food. I'm just thinking like it's an elegant sort of summary as to why this resonates with you like the if you're a person who cares about people than understanding some of where our traditions come from some of what keeps us bound to each other and how were different but different in ways that are not barriers. Were different in ways that are connecting and interesting and influence each other and there is probably nothing quite like food that brings people together which is probably why my mind keeps associated occupied needle with like yes there the other elements like medicine and clothes and things by them like but food. Because it's just such a good bridge between everything and i think a global perspective which is what the study seems to offer you is it is liberating in its in. Its scope definitely. And i think also it gave me a sense of purpose to connect to other subjects. That i feel are very morally. Important me so. I have a deep interest in politics but i don't want to be politician deep interesting physical geography. But i don't wanna be geographer geologist. I want to encompass these trainings into my practice. But i don't want to be confined by one research career and for me when i study food. It has direct implications setting climate change global food production and economics and the structure of the world. I mean there's nowhere on earth today that humans have not touched there is plastic in the depths of the ocean. There is trash everywhere. It's it's really it's tragic but but it also lets us know that humans are very dominant in the world today but not always been and so i think arc botany an environmental geology which encompasses archaeology and gio so animals. And sediments and soils. I think these three research disciplines as a united front can offer quite a lot to the climate change research debate and in fact. I think we're underutilized. You know people keep talking about the improper scene. It's this discussion about the modern human epoch where humans are the dominant force which is the transition from the holocene. The donna civilization the human start. And there's been a big discussion about. When did this date happen. And there's sort of Dates that are proposed in the one that sort of agreed upon by the u n is joy sixteenth ninety five. Oh you know happen. Sixteenth nineteen forty-five not specifically. No it's the first atomic bomb test Right that's so weird place to start it at will know because so what they do. Is they test the ice cores. Aw course wherever they see chemical spikes and nothing on record spiked more than nineteen forty five because of the you know the impact from the atomic bomb but the other dates that are proposed. Are the start of the industrial revolution. Yeah yeah the roman period to there was so actually the next day is sixteen. Ten sixteen ten is the lowest date of carbon because so many people died in. The americas from the impact of smallpox at the forest became reclaimed. Because there is no one to manage them it's stocked basically chemical properties out of the sky and it dropped temperature and it created the law stage and this radically shifted the impact of climate honors. And then the next state is The roman date is considered the end of the roman warring period. That's that is one. It's not it's definitely one of the impacts of the end of the roman empire of amongst many many textbooks we could discuss. But it owns less flagged because it's more focused on western europe versa. Yes versus sixteen. Ten affects everywhere. I mean you start. Seeing impacts in like indonesia and iceland and the hawaiian islands mean everywhere was impacted and then the next date is about ten eleven thousand years ago when they domesticated crops interesting That really radically changed. Everything and these dates are important. And like i don't think there's one day. I don't think you can be like this one day. Where america dropped a bomb and really messed with things is the reason. The world's horrible place like feel free to argue that. I don't think anyone will fully fight you. But it it's a it's a human accusative thing. I think these dates are really orton and one thing. I always see in this. Climate is always climate scientists and politicians and lawyers and they're like well it's a long term impacts of the human you know destruction on the planet and i'm like okay but you need someone who can stop the long term impacts. You need someone. Who has the laboratory field and methodological skills to analyze that data of the long term impacts and. I think that's where environmental archaeology plays a very important role awesome. That's fabulous all right so this brings us to the section of the show Historically called so what but more broadly. This is where. I want to ask like the big question. Why does this matter. what about you know. Ancient food production or Study of botany. Or the trade in ancient medicines or anything. We've kind of touched on today. Why do you think that should matter. More to people. Or what would you like the public to kind of know about it. So there's an immense complexity to how the world is the way it is today and we can track the beginning of civilization civilization being like coalesce. Society's not hunter gathers the domestication of crops and animals so at the end of the day the greatest focus is survival and eating and if civilization is based on being able to feed a lot of people and thus blossom coacher. I think archea. Botany offers a fundamental way to study the the basics of the human experience in human story of civilization that everything that we have attributed to coach her today music art architecture cuisine fashion so many interesting beautiful things started with. Can we feed our people. And how i agree. I think without securing resource without having enough to focus on other things like painting sculpture. All this other stuff. And i'm thinking a very like early stage. Yeah mess batavia like deep deep history old school. You just don't have the the resources to be the artisan creator. You don't have the ability to just specialize in one. Potentially active now does not say that people did not do a ton of different jobs. Of course we are. We are living in the generation of the side. Hustles so we get it. Yes but yeah. I think that's that's really nicely. Put i think also on a personal level for me. I'm always passionate about highlighting the role that women have played in the contribution of world history and archaeology. And i mean it's a little like dramatic but man hunter female gatherer. There is some truth that women and the gathering of crops and you know that agricultural management is fundamental to the survival of of of all of us. And i think women truly bring life since they make life but they also create life through management of agriculture materials. And i think that's really extraordinary. And every time i do Botany part of me feels that i'm being able to tell the story of millions of women who came before me who cultivated the landscape of the world. Today made it. So that i can exist in the world today and i think that makes me very proud makes me feel very humbled and i. I think it makes. It feels really feminists to me. And i'm like for that. I love that. I love this for you. I love this for us. This is wonderful and what you're totally right. I think the voices of women in history are so hard to pick out sometimes. Interestingly a lot of times women have served as you know traditional memory holders. You know they we train we. We teach we communicate. We share knowledge. We don't hold it like. This is something very. I feel representative of women throughout history. And that certainly would translate to knowledge about the uses of different fauna and flora for all sorts of things as well as rhythmic seasonal planting and harvesting. Like you and i are big. Supporters lovers of the cathodic goddesses in alias. Ancient capella great. Again i'm here for processing demeanor. Who's aways there's so many. There's so many interesting touchstones with women's work and agriculture. So yeah and i think i think to me. My favorite myth was always in incan mythology in peru in the andes. Putt chew mama. Mother earth and her womb is the entrance of a cave. And there's one that's near the sacred valley near only on tombo and out of her womb comes the salt mines and then it flows into this valley of agriculture and they're still like terrorists agriculture there. It's really spectacular and the kind of traditional idea is that you know she brings life to the world through her womb and makes abundance and i for me that was so meaningful like a teenager on the cusp mirela like coming into my adulthood and my womanhood and being like yeah women are important. I am part of that narrative. And i think for the there's something that's very feminine and feminist about inventory kyoji not to mention. Some of the greatest arco botanists have been women. May naomi miller at penn is exceptional. Deborah pearsall and christine has store. If i mean these exceptional women who are alive. Today and they have played fundamental advancements in the methodology of the science. And whether they did it for feminist reasons or not scientific or anything intellectual they as women as botanists as archea. Botanist archeologists. Pave the way. And so for me. I actually found entering archea. Botany as a woman incredibly supportive. I find archaeology. I found archaeology will still a little bit of a bros. Club i mean i can excavate as well as any guy i've done it in multiple heat waves by working with female arco botanists. My first mentor. Dr been veal Cambridge she's talked about it's very inclusive for women and all the other botanists in my master's program this year were whitman and even though my professor was male he was incredibly supportive and is inclusive and supportive to female pursuits awesome. Yeah his first. Doctoral student. dr ruth pelling. Who's the director of archea botany. For english heritage did exceptional advancements back in the day and he was very supported from the beginning. So i think it's a. It's a great job if your girl in archaeology. Thank you so much alex. I think you've in a lot of ways kind of us on a bit of a journey. About how exciting the field can be and the outer reaches of where it can take you and it really is kind of as as you can conceive. You can define it and find the pathway through it. That is interesting to you. So i mean like a call to arms for newark yacht nece. I hope you know there's more out there than just ceramics which are stunning and i. I'm here for ceramics but like there are other things to study. But but what went in the ceramics. Exactly that's the question. Why build the ceramic. what were you holding. What's soup was in that bull arena feasting with so. Yeah this has been a fascinating talk. And i am so grateful for your time. And you're obvious passionate expertise. It is a pleasure to speak with you always but a delight to have you on today thank you. This has been wonderful. Hurry well thank you for joining us as we explored these stories together. Please give to friends. Talk history a review on apple. Podcast soundcloud or spotify or whatever platform us. It's easy to do. And if you want to give a rating under the episode details it helps so much to gain visibility and get listed in other countries so that would be amazing you can also check out the instagramfor. Two friends talk history or you can check out my website. Www dot argue artists dot com or hit up our patriot. Thanks so much teaneck site.

alexandros lucky Botany keeble plague europe Pastula Alex America mount holyoke college paulin university of sydney Cash schreyer asia americas cova powell china arco ephesus north america
s1e5 Dev/Asur (Indian Mithya Fantasy)

Indian Noir

32:44 min | 9 months ago

s1e5 Dev/Asur (Indian Mithya Fantasy)

"This is Indian. You're. India's number one horror crime and dark fantasy storytelling outcast. Beef. SEASON? One. Episode Five. Aleka pretty the capital city of yesterday's on the planet fitted anchor. It was coastal city of brutal silver towers racing clawed hands up to the skies buttress cathedral shaped administrative buildings, shrines with jagged metallic roofs adorned with skulls and the sprawling residential and business precincts. The metallic shades of the buildings contrasted against the surrounding black mountains and black volcanic soil dotted with more patches of greenery. A raging ocean's beautiful giant waves that beat against an interminable stretch of beach said below an esplanade, which was home to gardens statues, Commemorative Wall celebrating the City Victories and fountains that Short. Read spouts of water at regular intervals. Along Wide Boulevard, created from redstone work trying to bite orphans, metal pillars and flags bearing the heraldry of the astronaut empire stretched in a straight line from the esplanade to the palace gates. The Palace was the block Ziggurat decorated with the statues of warriors and managers of fierce beasts but skull faces. Worn made steps lead by undying flames and brassieres provided access from the palace grounds to the inner chambers. UH So soldiers resplendent in silver heavy armor and Howard's God. Did every entry and exit into the mighty. Copy radiated out of the Palace in semi circles with rings of walls and battlements protecting the various sections of the Old City. I hate even the implement Ossetia's could have enjoyed splendid views of the vast expanse of his prosperous city from the balcony of his royal chambers but his is a too busy examining. Canvas depicting a beautiful woman in Hunter's garb. A mixture of lust and rage filled his gaze as he ran his eyes were beautiful profile of her face and the lines of her body in skin tight leather Alma fitted pans and knee-high hunting boots. He. Heard his brother Dud ker the general of the army until the room. But I even did not turn to look at his Amoud Foam. You are still lusting after Rani my brother. That Aku said. I know how this conversation will proceed because I have heard it a million times before. Getting rid of this painting will be the first temp to it's forgetting the whole sordid affair, etc, etc.. A, hate of attempt to face his brother with an amused look on his face. Six feet tall fair skinned, and possessed of a muscular v-shaped swimmer's body. I hate ovens clean shaven face shown with an ability and charisma that inspired respect in the hearts of his subjects. The cream colored Saito outlined his well defined musculature. Golden Bracelets chains, and rings around his powerful frame. A thin jagged crown, the mark of Ultimate Authority in the hospital empire sat on his lushest brown hair. Compared to his brother data had ten skin wrapped around bulky frame copter perfection by the rituals of war and grazed by abundance of heels cars. The, most prominent blemish died cup assessed was the thick. Bruce Com across his damaged left eye. His appearance her older than lifetime of battles waged for the glory of the yesterday in. Pile. was shorter than his brother but looked like he could crash through a siege machine without harming a single hair on his body. A thick said mustache on his face added to the intensity of his visage. Yes is to recommend that you throw out the damned painting the said. I won't brother. A hit of and said, you know why it feels my rage? I think of the day interest idealist enthroning from my arms and my blood boils. It helps me Paul Venom into the military campaigns and cunning schemes designing to dismantle every pillar of his wretched center Steel Empire Ya. If? I remember correctly, she left you. Said knowing well that he was the only one who could get away with making comments like that. You'll memories corrupted like everyone else's my brother. Sure in the ninety was not happy with me at times. My anger. I haven't began saying. Your volcanic temperament is more like it. Did, you not scoop out the isotope someone who accidentally witnessed your fiance naked foam in the palace grounds. Dot Gov chuckled. Phones memories that issue context. I was laughing man. I, worship that woman. and the treacherous busted in their seduce Elvis's dark odds and took from me. and said shaking with rage. Off Father led a failed campaign against the Davis and paid for dearly because the Vince full feelings, he habit to habitat mother's murderers compromised his judgment. I see you making the same era. Letting your emotions data began saying. Right there. You take the name of our father, the great length cashman in vain. You seek to undermine the motivations of the greatest emperor. The often empire has seen. You'll blame me for some of our unfortunate failures by linking to my childish impulses. A hit of an approached, his brother, his face, an angry musk. Do, you want to take my place general. Is that the real reason for your cruel assessment of my performance? He'd have been asked. You know I don't care for the throng. Only wish is to have you unto death. Douglas said taking a knee. Then, you must take crew pleasure in putting me down. Is that inch. I hate of and said looking down on the submissive form of his brother. Dodson. You know I didn't mean to insult you my emperor. You talk of prisoner feelings would you know you have never it? You don't even have a family of your own. I hit and said bitterly. I have you. dougie. Gutten. buddied both my father and my mother with you by my side. I, don't want to bury us well because an impulsive need for revenge dove your choices. A hit vince features softened he pulled back from his confrontational tons stooped down and placed a hand on his brother's shoulders. I'm sorry. I. Should Not have got an angry at you. You mean well. You Lot, of course, not correct in your assumptions. He'd have been smiled as he considered how his younger brother had a tendency to behave like his older brother. When I walk over the corpses of those gun terrorists and Yuck Shis, an upset is to arrive at in there is thrown and slay him with my ban hands. I would have triggered the end of the day rice. I would then take back my purchase in Danny. I will burden deputy and destroy that Richard Planet, Struggle Oga. Thus. I might be even empire of emperors will fulfill my father's dream of a universe free of the taint of day, Ross. Ahead of and said. You are talking about genocide. I have always talked about the expansion and the dominance of on empire. I suppose we've always different genders. The said. And our means. You talk of an inferior conciliatory. Agenda. That is why you follow me my brother, my general because I have the courage and the purity of belief to do what needs to be done. I hate even said. BOTICA bound. Grabbed his brothers and. He kissed the Royal. Skull. Shaped signet. As you wish my emperor, he said. Is the is ready to enact the plan. Even asked. Yes the PGA said. And our friends have promised their complete corporation. I hate of an quiet. They are more than willing to help us. DACA said. A hit of and turned around and looked at in Ronnie's painting and said. I can sense it in the air. The change in fortunes that brings about the end of an empire. A small smile blossomed on a hit Evans Lips. undefeatable. Through was tired. Fold no months on the Jungle Planet Venom all had drained him mentally and physically. He was sentenced along with the battalion of soldiers to investigate missing persons, cases, and brutal murders reported by migrant farmers and indigenous tribes on this Dave controlled planet. The complainants blamed vampiric creatures called vicious the dwelled in animals thick jungles for the bloody atrocities. In that first month why Vita did not encounter any dishes their bloody handiwork confronted him in every village he visited. Corpses but their throats slit open and drained of blood heartbroken families pining for their missing. Loved ones. Vita put there was also tested by energy sapping humidity the unrelenting assault of flies, incessant rainfall and attacks by wild animals. That had allied with the battalion of two hundred sorgess trained in jungle warfare. They felt confidence in the success of their mission regardless of the difficult circumstances in which they have to operate. Even do the dishes where a rare danger that lived in the forests of the universe. And an unsophisticated species who have no match for the David Special Forces. Be to put up, did not want his troops to underestimate them enemy. The dishes known to conduct kidnappings and murders at the skated witnessed on. Venom all. This was a disconcerting mystery that riled the extra commanders towards at night. His premonitions had proven to be right. Over the last three months, something had been hunting them sometimes in the dark of the night sometimes in the light of the day. He had come with two hundred soldiers. He was left with only forty of them. They had only seen fleeting glimpses of the creatures clad in black. Flashes of sharp teeth, silver nails and dreadful white is peeling through the foliage. Sometimes. They would take the soldiers marching in the RIA. At other times, they would assassinate the centuries guarding the camps of night. In one instance, a massive black bodies leading in the vegetation snatched an upset from her saddle. Her screams echoed through the forest as blood and strips off her flesh fell from the tops of the trees onto the marching troops. That incident had damaged the morale of the soldiers. beat up with upgraded their lead levels increase the pace of the march through the record woodland and tripled the guards on night. Watch. The chamand of food. He had seen the writing on the wall. Refusing to sacrifice all soldiers to his investigative mission. He directed the remaining troops to the nearest David outpost for evacuation. Vehicle needed to report the information they had gathered so far and Shannon expediencies of his troops with the top brass devise a better strategy to counter the threat of the advanced species Aventis operating in this region. beatable and his retinue composed of diminished upset infantry units but a day sprite away from the ultimate destination. When they came upon a clearing in the forest. The first hint of trouble was the smell of Camphor in the air. Fleeting shapes disturb the foliage around them and lightning fast food Polska, sale their us from all directions. It was a glorious day. He had the commander and his wards felt the chill of pure fear rundown their backs. The teeth chatted anticipation as they moved into defensive positions. The course of wild animals and the tweets of birds disappeared as agree, unnatural mist drifted into the clearing from the surrounding forest severely reducing their visibility. The bright blue sky above was lost to tendrils of thick smoke usurping it like a vicious leviathan elder gold feasting on the firmament. Defensive Formation. The to put the shouted. The opposite is formed a ring of protection which was badly adequate. Thanks loss of personnel damaged equipment, and the diminished mental and physical state of the company. A cry from the left. A painful scream from the right flank. Shocked. Grunt from the out of Defensive Wall. Old you'll ground vehicles that ordered. His heart was beating foster now. More shouts of the. Price. More screams of the dying. What's going on captain's report your status. Beautiful Head in field laced voice. None of his queries where answered. Something in the mist was touting his soldiers apart. As the smoke cleared he glimpsed the flashing curved blades and the spinning checkers tearing into upset soldiers. then. He sold the skin tight raven black body glove and the half mosques featuring a grinning skull worn by the addresses. The bladed fingernail attachments on the hands of the attackers trade silver streaks as it cut through the air and sliced open the throats of his helpless subordinates. Those dreadful Milky White Coal painted is with surgically card pupils which aided in night-vision. It could only been onto those dreaded assassins fostered by the mortal enemies of the Davis. Own Yet cheese. They will not dealing with Vampire Ignatius covens. Davor dealing with the elite. Female executioners of the other army. A chucker of fluids, vehicles today, and he dodged it in the last second. He batted another one away with his sword. The terminal moons of his soldiers died down as the smokescreen cleared. The site of upset sold masters. Shield. Maidens and arches lying motionless around him like a flock of poison birds of paradise broke his hot. Visibility had been restored and Vita put the looked on in horror at the war band that surrounded him. DEVIANCE BLACK-CLAD, Gray, skin soldiers of the achievement watched the extra commander with unblinking ghostly is. They stood motionless and clustered together like a roost of vampire bats. That long sharp swords similar to Samurai blades rested in only cabbage hanging from the hips. Ready to be unleashed for. A lightning-fast kids strike. Scores of knives and chuckers were lodged in pouches stitched onto their black armored body glove for quick deployment. Shaken, but this was not the first time he had faced down impossible odds. In the battlefields of cooking Kasich ta he had fought and won against tough opponents. Mutiple. The jumped off his horse raised his two handed sword and ruled. Come on your filthy animals come gets. The she's did not respond as the student attention like an honor God in panic circle around the edges of the clearing. On God for whom? Beata put the wondered. As if to answer his tort, Some York, she's potted to let to on the fingers through. A coup Beta commander and his doctors aboard a gaunt. Forbid his similar in size to the gun towers and they possessed the gift of flight. Only some among the blue skinned doctor says and axes had wings and build was similar to the mighty yet chess. That was where the similarities ended. The OSCEOLA society forward, a rigid abhorrent form of Kline assume that leads to might preferential treatment to its the Cabrera clan. CABELA's soldiers were elevated to command rules with minimal experience while doctors, actresses, and yet she's who had served the empire for decades were consigned to the role of foot soldiers for the duration of their service. Intimating between the clans were strictly forbidden and the CABELA's considered themselves members of the master clan. The only bloodline capable of carrying the legacy of the other kingdom. The only people who deserved to inherit the reins of the universe. The doctors to cleanse and the clans were nothing more than slaves. However the Australia's noted with great pride that the clans that served them deserve to live. Unlike the behaviors and the don of his and millions of other creations spread across the universe. The Cobra commander who walked haughtily towards leader was named the Chassanha. Vein to be one of the greatest swordsman in the universe. Dressed in a Red Hoff Alma of I'm plates and leather scales last together, with silk, roads and I'm rivets. The protective covering was designed to facilitate accurate swift and lethal sort attacks. Usually, the owners of similar Armagh wore a chainmail tunic underneath to fend off any deep trusts that might slip their guard. But the. Wood none. Such was his arrogance and self belief. The US the doctors the bodyguard. Kerry beautiful sold in his open palms. Ready for his master's taking whenever he needed it. It was a curved single edged blade with a squared God and long grip. The, steel glinted in the sun like a newly breath star. While the valley scales that adorn the grip gave the weapon a menacing Luke. The South China was in his mid thirties. He had angled eyebrows which framed in arrogant face. His Big Brown eyes radiated contempt. He had a NATO point gin which combined with his cruel smile to give him the appearance of an evil court jester. He's slick long hair was combed back and tied in a Ponytail, and he regularly stroked his head obsessing over its tidiness. Impressive and they. Said pointing at the cheese. Shop has weapons I most cunning devices. They will stick a knife in you even if you escape to the edges of the universe. Also dishonorable CRETANS beautiful. Disgust. that. The APP cheese have humiliated you the toughness head as he approached the doctors aboard God's outstretched hands and stroked the fine blade of his choice weapon. Sword, fighting a Yucky. They are the finest sword masters in the universe. And they make death blades like no one else tash. Crafted with skill and a last for death. The venue reason I carry one of their blades even though my brethren prefer short shorts made by the finest Beta sort smits. You must embrace what is pefect. Even at the cost of rejecting the neum and upsetting your kin. I prefer upsetting them. Over. Disappointing. Them. This Hasna said. Bowling with your speeches fight me you cowed. Vida puts his head racing his sold. This is what your second or Third Command mission. Look at what you have accomplished. You ought to disappointment to your clan a disgrace. The southam said smiling at the corpses laying on the grass like toppled monuments dedicated to put this failure. They fought bravely and died like heroes in that battle against treacherous enemies. Mill use he failure I see the fulfillment of one's duty to mighty in the. Vita put said. What did they add the waters? Of Akasha Ganga these days The? Cessna. Chuckled. The cheese continued that motionless vigil. But the doctors have bodyguard roll with laughter. Up or I will rip your tongue out. Put through bellowed. The Senate grabbed the sword from the open palm of his seven and said. A deal to the death then. He held the blade downwards and flicked it a few times relishing its weight and balance. This will same this beautiful steel nightingale. The said, as he assumed, his combat stands feed staggered at shoulder bit. He held the handle at level the sharp edge angle towards the light and sight. The Blade was pointed to the back and kept low. Beautiful Trust. His giant two handed sword in front of him. It's tip slightly raised and pointed to its the Shana. His intention was perfectly timed power plunge. Took a few steps to reach the optimum distance at which he could begin executing his plan to pump his wings lunge forward and plant his mighty blade into the hospice. Art. The South China did not budge. He stood his ground. The Yankees. Continued silent vigil. The now cost them is to the ground. As if they knew the outcome of what was about to transpire. The Jessica Save the sensory. Is offered by the surroundings briefly. The wind in the trees. The warmth of the sun on his skin. The measured breathing of the she killed scored and the Chirping of insects. Then he shut his bodies linked to the elements that placed him in the material world. His focus moved inwards and he keenly observed his bodily functions. The blood surging in his veins, the breath, the beating of his heart. Charleston continued his inner journey as he raised this last link before one with the. Blade. He waited for the split second movement that would give away the vector vehicle discharge. He studied the tip of his enemies sword which would betray its intended destination. He analyzed his opponents posture to deduce the strategy which would break his God. The Greatest Sword Master of the pile was so in tuned with his warriors, all all else became insignificant in this the moment of killing. His POW for muscular and his wings which were not designed for flight but for propulsion aided vetoes lightning charge. The SHESHONA sites tipped to the right avoiding the thick blade directed at his art. He then pivoted on his right leg and placed his left leg ninety degrees to the left. So he was now facing the. Left hand side profile. The Sword Act up from right to left in an upward diagonal ach seven vehicles head clean from his torso. The detached head fool up in the air trailing blood and Gore and fell unceremoniously on the cockpit of dead bodies on the ground. Thus whipped the blade away from his sword and instructed his doctor said. In turn voice. Chen this head to Indra.

commander Vita vince Davis South China India CABELA Commemorative Wall Amoud Foam redstone Old City Ossetia Aku Rani Howard Saito Hunter DACA Yankees Charleston
The best of Capital Ideas, vol. 2

Capital Ideas Investing Podcast

44:58 min | 1 year ago

The best of Capital Ideas, vol. 2

"The investments are not FDIC insured nor are they deposits of or guaranteed by a bank or any other entity so they may lose value. American funds are not available outside the US. The following is not intended as an offer to purchase or distribute American funds outside the US. I'm Matt Miller. This is capital ideas. Your connection to the minds and insight shaping the world of investments. Maybe it's the lure of Hollywood awards season or the pent-up Nostalgia around the capital ideas studio. Is we approached the three year. Mark of our small but mighty podcast. Whatever the case. We're back with another edition of the best of capital ideas. We rated R. Archives to find the truly outstanding moments our guests have shared with us. What makes for an outstanding moment? I is it inciteful for investors next. Does it offer a key long-term perspective on our times and finally is it memorable? Did we think you? Our listeners would appreciate hearing it while more time in short. Is it a capital idea? You're in for a treat. Your they are the best of the best. We kick things off with portfolio manager. Joyce Gordon a forty four year veteran of capital group back in March of two thousand nineteen when concerns about the next recession. Were starting to run. Hi My colleague will McKenna. Joyce how her? Experience of past recessions informed her current thinking about the markets. Hughes will let me follow up and talk a little bit about two thousand eight the great recession. I think still very much on the minds of our audience. You know when we look the questions that we get it. People were really so scarred by that. That's the anchor of the framework. They bring to thinking about recessions. Today you live through that you invested through that. What lessons did you pull out of that? You were talking about companies you know. There was nowhere to hide so to speak. But there were a handful of companies. You know Amgen Hasbro. Mcdonald's Walmart those types of companies that were positive that year. What lessons did you pull from that period in particular? And did you learn any even going back to the nineteen eighty-seven big decline in the market? What was true of both of those timeframes was you wanted to avoid companies with a lot of leverage companies with a lot of debt service that they have to deal with our subject to problems of outside influences of credit rating agencies that force their hand and make them cut their dividend so that they can maintain investment grade and that would hurt the stock price if they cut the dividend. At a time. When you're going through the problems that was one big thing. I learned another thing I learned was to really pay attention to what people are doing. And you know going into the great recession. We had the Sandler's who owned Golden West financial in California. And this was their baby. This was their savings and loan company that they built and I thought they would never sell it right before the peak they sold it to a bank and I should have paid more attention to that that they were nervous about mortgages and they were nervous about the state of the bank and another thing. That happened back then was Washington mutual savings bank based in Seattle they issued a proxy proposal that would change the management bonus structure and take out any loan losses from the impact from the management incentive. Plan so that they were being incentivised by volume not quality and that was another telltale. Sign that something horrible was coming and so as I look around now. I don't see a lot of those types of things going on but what I do see is some companies that have typically increase their dividend every single year over this last year have not and the ones that have not are the ones with a lot of leverage and so they're kind of worried about paying down their debt and not increasing the dividend. And we're seeing that with some of the food companies and so that confirms that were in the later stages of the cycle and that sales growth is tougher and that companies are focusing on paying down. Debt you listen to someone like Joyce Gordon. It just reminds me the kind of experience we have someone with four decades plus of investing at Capital Group and the wisdom and the eye for warning signs the pattern recognition that develops from having been through so many market cycles and the kind of insight and prudence that she brings to the assets where stewarding for so many families. Just a great moment. That reminds you of that kind of sensibility. That informs everything that capital investors do next when I spoke recently with investment analysts has Cinco Hernandez who's covered the oil industry for capital for the past nineteen years. I asked as I often do. If he had any favorite stories he'd like to share from his travels visiting with companies. I certainly didn't expect this one. We're lucky to be capital. I've been covering this business for almost twenty years now. And that's unusual at other firms in other firms you move on to do other things you rotate between industries or it's stepping stone but we really have people who spend their careers following industries and then you get to develop really interesting and deep relationships. Some of the companies that own their large cap companies. I might have invested in their IPO or pre IPO when they were small cap companies and those relationships are deep. So one thing on my fortieth birthday party a few years ago one of the companies that I had invested in for eleven years They named a well after me and presented to me on my birthday which was kind of Nice and as a goodwill to within a crummy. Well it was really quite a boomer. So it's the Hustle Hernandez Hasina Forty H so has seen Tau for May the forty for being forty in H. It's horizontal well and then there's a series of numbers said the naming convention. Yes because it will be the forty V if it were vertical well but vertical. Well you WANNA could on horizontal. Visit your namesake. Well from time to time ever visited the well bad. I have to that I have not. But that's a good idea to get a little plaque or something. I will sign in my office. It's like a real. They duplicate of the sign. Every well site will have a sign. You need to have a scientist say who the operator is named of the whale. And it's stamped like a licensed pipe but it's much much larger with the oil sector obviously gets so much negative press in their legitimate concerns about climate and the evolution there but it is also in kind of technological marvel what happens in the oil business. Have you spent much time on oil rigs or offshore rigs absolutely? I mean that's par for the course you say a word about back. I've never been on an oil rig. I don't know people who've been on oil rigs except for folks like you haven't really heard you talk about it. I mean it's it seemed like a kind of unbelievable achievement that you can do these things when you go to offshore platform and it's almost like a mid rise building that's floating in ten thousand feet of water and the guys mostly men there occasionally when but most guys that are on these platforms two on two weeks off. They lived there for two weeks and they're twelve hours on twelve hours off. They were twelve hour days often sharing a room with one of their buddies. I think it's much better now in the Internet age where you actually can get streaming data. They can talk to their families. You know I think twenty thirty years ago. The most important thing on that platform was the chef. You're not gonNA keep good people if you have bad food. These guys eat The dangerous job and you know you helicopter in helicopter out the logistics of even getting their super complicated and it's like an industrial manufacturing side of the top levels. And then it's like a really low ran cruise ship on the bottom levels. They're kind of a family. These guys it's dangerous work. A lot of them might not have a finger or might have a cousin and often. It's a family business but these are exceptionally well paying jobs. These guys are very happy to have these jobs and with a high school education. You can make a lot of money. It's so great listening to hoc- talk this way because it's just emblematic of the on the ground research that capital group analysts and portfolio managers. Do in the insights that you get that are really granular when it comes to understanding what drives a business in a way. That's just well. Beyond the balance sheet in the income statement in the cash flows which obviously have to be studied? But it's a real tactile understanding of businesses that I think one of the distinctive things the capital brings in that hocine. Great story exemplifies now on the eve of Great Britain's former exit from the European Union on January thirty first of this year economists Talaqan and economist. Robert Lynn were both based in London. Spoke with my colleague. Michael Utley about the looming decision and parliament here from what's next for Brexit. They discussed the implications beyond Britain shores. Taller starts us off so I think what we seeing not only in the UK but broadly in Europe is the continuing realignment of mainstream political parties of the centre-left and centre-right clearly. If we can this broader this discussion to Europe what we've seen over the last five years in particular is Continuing fragmentation of the mainstream parties into a more diverse set of political parties entering the fray. And therefore you know new coalitions being formed. Which didn't exist before you. Can broadly bucket. This under the umbrella of off populism But what it really is a response to it. As a sense of disaffection from the average voter with the status quo so in other words the Post Wall majorities that the center left and center right todd and which sort of responded to and provided full the issues of the day no longer seem to be providing people with answers that they seek because either they think The system is unfair or they think on economic issues in particular that there's too much inequality has not as you mentioned but also their issues of culture and identity and the politics of place where people are wondering. How do they respond to the growing sense of insecurity that they have in a world that is increasingly globalised where there is automation eating away at the livelihoods and the jobs that they were guaranteed in the post effectively? The social welfare system that they were used to is no longer available as a backstop in the same way that it once was before and so politics is in a state of flux the brexit moment if you will was the result of many of these issues coming to ahead and a variety of people voted for Brexit for a variety of different reasons. It wasn't exactly for the same reason. And that's why it's taken this country so long and arguably will take a lot longer to try and figure out what it wants to do with Brexit and I liked the phrase you use that politics is in a state of flux it certainly seems that way many parallels with the election of Donald Trump and the United States. This is such a big question. Robert What do you think about? The wider implications of brexit either from a political standpoint or economic standpoint sort of the divide between the industrial areas of England versus the more financially focused areas like London. What are your thoughts on this? I think there is still a launch debates yet to come in the UK about what brexit actually means in the referendum campaign in two thousand sixteen. We didn't really discuss the detail of what brexit means and over the last three years. We've not really got any closer to working out. We'll brexit means I think there is inherently within the UK. Attention here between a relationship. That's very close to the EU and stays very close to the EU cost will constrain the ability that the government here has to change economic policy But of course that will also minimize economic disruption. Alternatively the government here could see Komo distant relationship with the EU. We could seek to move away from the regulatory single-market away from the Customs Union. Obviously give it much greater scope to influence domestic policy but of course that would come with quite considerable cost in terms of economic disruption. You know there are many many companies not just UK companies but companies across the e U Which have subsidiaries plants factories officers in the UK as part of their global supply? Chain and of grace if the UK starts to move away from the EU regular in any kind of regulatory way or in any trade relationship than that is only going to increase the cost of doing business for many companies which have to. They happen to be in. And I do varies. This broader sort of politically and something that comes out of talents description of the people who voted the Boris Johnson. This election Boris Johnson won support among typically Labor voters in some of the old industrial heartlands of the UK. These people used to have jobs in the steel industry and the coal mining industry. Those jobs gum and clearly the government is now trying to think how best to address the economic and social concerns of this particular group of people on those problems very deep. I'm very well established. They've been happening for many. Many decades goes a long time. I think for any government to get to grips with the full implications of that. You know what's wonderful about that? Conversation with Robert and talent is while people know capital groups. Bread and butter is fundamental bottom up company research and that's how capital group in American funds do security selection is part of the team. There are folks like Tyler and Robert who integrate into the portfolio decision making process a deep understanding of these underlying economic and political trends. Where we're seeing the tectonic plates shifting across the world on issues like populism the revolt against some elites on all sides. The just was mentioned in that discussion in. It's the ability to bring that kind of thoughtful insight to bear. On the specific context of how portfolio managers are actually choosing which companies to align our investors as partners with in their growth. That is a piece of the special sauce. I think they'd capital brings and that conversation helps to reflect next. We'll stay on that side of the pond but hop over to the world of fixed income. I asked london-based portfolio manager Mark Brett. Just over a year ago about his outlook for Global Bonds in twenty nineteen bracing for a response steeped in bond math from this forty one year veteran. I-instead got this answer. I don't have a strong view about twenty nine thousand nine what I really have. A big view out. Is this kind of three things. Going on the money tightening. Something really structural about the profit share the economy and the Labour share. Say More about that. So that's really going back to the political events that you've talked a lot about we've learned from me about Matt in the US or the UK with Brexit or easily with Internet party all the right wing parties in France and Germany. The lavish share of the economy very low. Around the time of the crisis I think in all these countries many working people are saying my kids are going to be poor than I am and poor them. My grandparents. Something's wrong. The profit share has been rising for twenty or thirty years the labor she has been going down and the public. Say Hang on a minute. I want my share and voting politicians is so we're going to change this now. Don't clear the position is going to get this right but it is clear that I think the public saying on. I want to go up. And that gives you a different kind of macro environment where companies need to respond is disruptive environment And then of course in human behavior and there's one or two red flags out there about human behavior only in the market that I can see a month. Let's unpack a couple of those things these three forces at work. You're talking about or money. Tightening the labor and profit share and human behavior as a so one of the things that brings to mind just first of all I think people often think of Baden investing or bond market says this kind of dry mathematical exercise and a lot of watching of central banks. Yeah but just the way you describe. What's top of mind for you as you think about the outlook? It really includes the deepest questions of Political Economy. The deepest questions of psychology. When you get into how you think the market will process or human behavior will process by the human behavior. You mean market participants. Yes that they not supposed to do. In the textbooks and monetary tightening. That's central bank choices and decision making. I think people understand that but sale little more about how these other things like the question of labor versus profit share how that translates into what you're trying to decide to do right and stewarding our clients fultz Really Fuzzy. So really fuzzy on it's about saying. I don't want to know the weather next Tuesday account. No the weather next Tuesday. Just want to know what's season we're in well sort of environment. We and the weather next Tuesday is unknown. It's noble it's largely random on on a day-to-day vive markets a lousy random on a day-to-day to day view. That probably random on a month to month view. That's very tough message to say that. But it's probably true. What I want to know about is the general environment we're in and what is the bond market offering me as an investor. What's priced in where I disagree with it? I feel strongly about it all where I don't have a view so I didn't take of you. And those things feed into a kind of environmental view and and disagreement so clear disagreeing with the what's price. Dan Is the source of superior. Long run returns that Am. I think it is yeah. It's disagreeing with the market in two ways. One is where the price of something just doesn't seem to tie up with what I think the pressure. So it's very much like Eric. See colleagues saying is the price of this. Stop the peace too. Low for this company is a great growth company. It shouldn't be on a P twelve. It should be on twentieth deserves to be on higher rating. And so there's a degree of that in fixed income with saying when I look at the dry maths of what is priced into right heights. You can calculate it's a maths problem. Not a human problem and then I got to say on the other side. Well what is everybody else doing about this? So really good example of that at the moment is there's a lot of concern about rate rises on. GonNa lose a load of money and bond funds and yet when you look at human behavior. They've clearly taken that on board. To such an extent they've rushed away from taking interest rate risk into taking credit risk. So in the middle meaning the rest of the mark rest of the market is doing that in the middle. There was a little thing that happened. Very Few people noticed the leveraged loan market in the US finally exceeded in size the traditional high yield bond markets trillion of quarter now in leverage loans was the significance of that. The Senate consists this has been the market. That's been on fire. It retail investors in America. Said I'm really worried about rates going up when and they were right when rates were nothing rates. Were going to go up now. They've been going up. Well they've been doing is rushing from bond funds got interest rate risk into bond funds. Got Lots of credit risk. In place of interest rate risk people want income. They want yield some instead of taking yield associated with rate risk. They've been taking yield Societa with credit risk. Now there's nothing wrong with leverage loans. We buy all the time. We buy an high-heeled funds because there are subsidy for but we don't buy them in short term high grade bond funds. The problem is that's where most of them are. The profession were in is so driven to deliver income. It's delivering something. That's correlated with equities and that to me is the only behavioral. Red Flag off guard at the moment and it bothers me. What's so wonderful about talking to a portfolio manager like Mark Bread? Is You expect it to be about interest rates and duration and credit in all the classic components of the bond market equation but very quickly. It gets into almost philosophy and watching how someone like. Who's been successful for decades? And obviously as a master of all the core ingredients of bond math and bond returns and how to think about that the role that these other non quantifiable factors play in his outlook and how he then makes portfolio decisions. I find fascinating. We love hearing from our listeners. So keep those reviews coming. Tell us how we're doing by reviewing capital ideas. On from time to time we like to feature guest from outside capital group typically academics from disciplines other than investing these authors offer unique perspectives. They can influence how our audience thinks about markets. I can think of no more articulate and forceful voice in this regard then power Khanna a global strategy advisor and author of the future is Asian in his book. Power argues that while today's western investors are obsessed with China's every move a fourth wave of Asian growth essentially the rest of Asia is poised to become a much bigger story. Here's a key part of our discussion one of the things. I found intriguing and again some of this may be challenging to Western ears. But it's important because if you're right that the future is Asian people in the US and investors who are thinking globally. Have to understand this. You talk about the Western narrative of history and it's blind spots versus what history looks like from the Asian point of view. Can you give kind of a high level sketch of those two things? And what you think is important for folks to understand the differences and I should say for anyone who ever wants to undertake writing. Book don't try to summarize seven thousand years of Asian history in thirty pages. It's a grotesquely difficult exercise. Yes but there you go. It's a public service now. Now you can pop realize that right so going back to colonialism and the color for thousands of years prior to colonialism Asians had a lot more to do with each other than with the rest of the world so when we talk about the Silk Roads and that's a very popular expression these days. Silk Roads Connotes superior or periods of history when Asians really had tons of commercial and cultural interactions with each other with no reference whatsoever to the West. Right it's only with colonialism. The Industrial Revolution that Europe in particular became a ascendant so I wanted to emphasize that in this relates to the whole idea of the reinforcing waves of growth from Japan to the Tigers China and so forth. That's Asian history. Looks like it's this learning process of Asian sharing language script religion and Ideas Technologies and business and so forth right and today. If you fast forward we are rekindling. This process again. We Are Asians. Have such tremendous complimentarities? If you look at Asian today you see your financial centers like Singapore and Hong Kong. You've got factory floors like Thailand and the Philippines Vietnam China. Obviously you have agriculturally rich countries you have commodities providers you have a labor surplus countries and labor shortage countries. So it's extremely important to remember that when we talk about Asia it's not just China and it's not India is the new China or something like that. It's all of them at the same time because you cannot explain China without understanding Japan and what Japan has done in China and four China. You can understand Pakistan without looking what China is doing for Pakistan. You can't understand ozzy. On without looking at the Chinese and Japanese companies that are offshoring Their production into Southeast Asia so history history of Asia in particular is full of these complimentarities in which sides mutually enrich each other. And this is so important today because Matt as you know the trade wars kind of the dominant political issue of the day and that gives you this impression that economics is this. Totally zero-sum enterprise right and all of Asian history quite frankly all of global history you know proves otherwise and so we really have to think about how these complementarities are playing by following those supply chains following those trade flows following investment in capital flows. We can start to make some pretty robust predictions. What the next growth markets. You know. It was such a delight to interview Parag Khanna and just listening to that reminds me of how the full interview. He's full of such energy and such deep knowledge of a set of markets. They're going to play such a central role to investing as well as just global political economy in the next thirty forty fifty years and his focus to keep reminding us the deep integration of the region. And how it's just a much bigger story than China alone as big as China is was a really helpful reminder for our capital ideas listeners in US automakers signal lane change I spoke with investment analysts. Caitlyn Murphy about investing in an industry on the cusp of major technological disruption our inevitably turned to one disruptive maker and. It's rather eccentric. Ceo Do you cover Tesla I do? What's the kind of headline about what the impact of that firm and Elon? Musk's the kind of visionary entrepreneur who's been in driving the industry in your view. I think he woke up the industry when Tesla came to market at the time where I lifted them. I probably visited close to a dozen private electric vehicle companies companies trying to do that. There are a lot of incentives around the time coming out of the downturn. There were a lot of battery. Maker's there's a lot of hope around. We're battery costs could go Tesla decided to go with a different form factor than what others were used to. They lower the cost that way and they said the product has to be compelling. We can't give people golf carts that feel unsafe and don't have the range. It has to have compelling range it has to be a beautiful product and you have to be able to do everything you can do in a normal car. I mean that doesn't seem revolutionary right now but it was at the time And they just thought about everything on just a different plane than all the other. Oem's and so if come to market. They've had a lot of success in the ultra luxury segments where they've taken some share and really put pressure on some of the German. Oem's in particular. So what's he la? Musk like you make research trips part of the fun of working capital the excitement and also what we do on. Capitol ideas is your view tales from the field. I will say he is an incredible visionary I was not new analysts but newer. And so we're going to meet your lawn. For the first time I had met him before but taking pm's that have never met him before and he obviously has a phenomenal reputation from predisposes. Learn so we sit in a meeting with him and I'm like you analyst. Ho The PM like this guy. And he starts to talk about ramping up production for model last we're going into some of the technicalities and again. I think he was sleeping on the factory floor way back then and then he stops and says can I honest with you. We'll tell us there's a ninety five percent chance earth will be all right but there's a five percent chance that we may need to colonize Mars and I'm like Oh. I'm looking at the board bully marriages next to me. This is the guy we want to invest but he went on to kind of connect the two things in why Tesla was such a mission for him because I really think electric vehicles our mission. He's an advocate for that and I think it ended up resonating with but it was just one of those moments says. A newer analyst were really okay. Such a great story and Just again another snapshot of what the kind of investment life is on the ground to capital group where analysts are engaging with everything from run of the mill. Ceos and leaders to these kind of extraordinary once in a generation entrepreneurs likey llamas. And how we help calibrate that in terms of the assets we steward for millions of families now continuing with Caitlin. I ventured to question that was on my mind and I can only assume on the minds of many of our listeners. Now investing and the automotive industry in particular tend to be traditionally male dominated industries. Talk a little bit about has been a woman been an advantage a disadvantage at times. You know there is a study that came out over the summer. I think it was funded by Bloomberg. I don't remember the actual name of the people that did the study but it looked at earnings conference calls for the last twenty years and found that only eight percent of the words spoken or spoken by women and it linked to other studies done at Byu that said if women are twenty percent which is kind of we're hoping to get to in the investment management industry twenty percent of the population in a room. We're in a meeting. They ten percent of the words and it's not until woman have a majority where they actually able to influence the conversation and by the way when that happens it can lead to better outcomes for businesses better investment results. So we know that. I'm super grateful to be here We don't talk about a lot. I hope we do going forward because I think we have more female. Investors here and more assets managed by females thinks it would rival anyone else in the world. Talk about that but it's important senior. Women Veterans Tons of people to Mentor. And even as important as that. We have a lot of what we call. Allies and people are really champion. The analyst process and as part of that champion. You as a female and that's very important because just alluded to earlier. It's about finding your voice in a space that can be crowded and it's important that we have a choice because that's how we influence investment outcomes and so I think capitals very thoughtful about that and I'm grateful for that where I see it in the intersection between the industry and autos GM had an investor day last month and it was great. I mean they brought up a lot of good points about a lot of transformation. Gm has a female CEO and CFO. They are one of three companies and the S. and P. Five hundred and two in the fortune five hundred of a female CEO and CFO. Mind Boggling so here we are talking about all the changes that they've made whereas I think you about strategy. They put out a vicious earnings targets Ito Creek Day. Look around the room. Hundreds of investors. I can count on one. Hand the number of female investors and two of them were associates from Capitol Myself and a portfolio manager from another side of Capitol. Here are these great female leaders that I get to work with because of my coverage which is rare and the people are going to allocate capital to them are all very different. That's not always going to be the case I think this job on the surface can turn a lot of females away Because we have impressions of like a Macho Culture. The work life balance a number of other things. But it's important for us to show up because one day this and p. five hundred is going to look very different and there has to be other people allocating capital two different businesses. So great to hear. Kaitlyn talk about that. It's an issue that it's really part of the fabric of capitals culture. The diversity viewpoint the diversity of views which means diversity not just of gender among our investment group but geographies People from all over the world analysts portfolio managers part of a global team including what Katy points out. Is The work that we've done to try and remedy the underrepresentation of women in some of these roles and the very different outlook and perspective that that brings to the table which is obviously essential to get the best input and ultimately the best decision so Kudos to Katie. For calling out all those issues regular listeners will know that memorable research visits like the one that Caitlyn Murphy described with Elon. Musk figure prominently on our podcasts. When I interviewed Portfolio Manager Alan Wilson a thirty five year industry veteran and former engineer. I recalled worried about his unusual approach to meeting with company management. So I asked him about it. Say a word about how you think about management because that's another one of the Special sauces too much of a cliche but one of the one of the things that long-term investors like apple get to do is really focus on. Who's running the company and the quality of those folks and have relationships with them over long periods of time and I I recall being one investment. Meeting where you had mentioned once that you had like this little personal rule that there was one manager. Who's General Presentation You Roy? So impressed with that. You had a rule like wait two days or forty eight hours after you were with that person because you didn't want to just react in the moment Because you knew kind of behaviorally. That was the way you reacted to this person. Just talk a little bit about how you think about. Manage management is an adult like if we talk about capital management capitals management is a whole cadre of people doing multiple things to make this whole place work and so. I think the first thing is to not to let myself just speak for myself not to let myself get overly persuaded by one person. One way or the other right because in fact. Typically the people that arisen to the top are extraordinarily good. Ed being persuasive and telling the story and by the way they believe the stuff that they're saying right but inevitably when we're trying to invest in a company or we're trying to do is invest about what it's going to be that what it was or even what it is but when it's going to be and there are no future facts so what I need to do. In fact sometimes some of my best investments have been where I have believed in something. That's different than what? The Management Team believes right. I believe sort of an outlook for an industry. I believe that these people will have the capabilities to execute well if that outlook happens but they might not even as convict so To me that the real question is does the management in aggregate do its capabilities fit with what the task is going to be for the company. But it's not. Is this person really smart or she really persuasive or are they really kind to me or mean to me for that matter because the other thing I learned is that you know I used to follow some companies in the solid waste business etc and I would sit down and the farmer analyst would come in and he would talk about how this is this? Is You know? Sometimes a business is about sort of getting the trucks out on time. The trash picked up and stuffed in a whole different skill set. So it's not even could have imagined this person sitting across from me at school. It's about are you the right person for the right job. What strikes me as I remember that conversation is the real self-awareness. Allan has about his own behavioral biases. And how he processes own interactions with senior management and leaders that our team is assessing every day. It's the ability to be self aware and sensitive to those human dynamics and also not to be bamboozled by the kind of fancy corporate environment obviously but through experience and wisdom to know that it's really the ability to get the trains to run on time that often makes a successful business different from one. That's not quite so successful now. Sometimes a best of moment isn't a bad investing at all we end our episode with Gregg went a portfolio manager an investment analyst. Who spent his entire thirty two year. Investment career with capital group. Greg once took a year long hiatus away from the firm as a favor to a friend. My colleague Michael Lovely takes it from there another question I have and I hope you don't mind me asking you this but You were a friend and adviser to Senator John McCain who sadly passed away recently Can you share some of your your memories of the Senator? John was just an extraordinary man. who again through luck I built up a friendship with And how did that happen? Initially I read a book called Nightingale Song and was sort of embarrassed I'd never heard of Senator John McCain and I mailed him a letter is crazy sounds and six months later I got a phone call asking me to go to a fundraiser. That night in San Francisco as their guest which I'll give you a hint meant. The fundraiser was not going well Let's see what year was this Ninety eight tar went to the fundraiser in literally and I should use quotes fundraiser. Right There were seven of us. There it was known John Now so well was a painful our but he stuck there for an hour and we had a good chat and as we were leaving John grabbed me and my then date now wife and said they got me coming back next week for another fundraiser That's not going to happen. Do you WanNa have dinner right. And so it was a political friendship for John at that point and Lisa my wife now wife and I were very involved in his two thousand campaign I got an introduction to politics when you lose so after John Lost. Many folks who were his visible supporters moved onto President Bush's team. I just stayed with John. I mean I met him. I admired him and we build a friendship through the years in. Oh Eight After he won New Hampshire I was asked would I take a year off from Capitol and travel with him for that year And so often is the is on the airplane with him seven days a week right often. Is the first guy to seem that In the morning last guy to see midnight him. And it was a bonding adventure It was a great experience. I wouldn't trade for anything In John's just became a very close friend. Right right and your role was senior advisor to the campaign. They gave me title of senior adviser. But you know. What does that entail? What would what does it mean somedays? I did economic policy some days Iran got starbucks. You know you you do everything particularly if you know the candidate well And what you're trying to do is be as helpful to him that days. He can write and you can help sort of translate what's going on in the markets are business road. Those were turbulent months. You can sorta make sure that that day. We've got some levity in the in on the plane and we're having fun doing something just Running for president. Awfully hard in whichever you can do to make it easier for the guy yet. Do Right or gal guy or Gal right and obviously in two thousand eight. We were in some very difficult. Financial Times right in the middle of the financial crisis. Did you discuss with him? Oh Yeah No. We ain't going to happen. Yeah I I mean we had some long discussions We certainly broaden many many people that were helpful in trying to Provide John some insight right and you know I would sure. Help facilitate those discussions. But you know we didn't win And John as you said just passed but I thought the outpouring for this nation was a great recognition for his role his service in the fact that he really is a guide star in terms of how he approached public service. Well that's another best of capital ideas in the tank. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed reliving these memorable moments as much as I did. Can we make a deal? We'll get back to work making new podcast memories. You keep right on listening and we'll all get together and do this again before you know it. We're always trying to get better. So if you have any feedback including topics you'd like to see addressed in future episodes. Shoot US an email to capitol ideas at Cap Group. Dot Com for capital ideas. This is Matt Miller reminding you that the most valuable asset is a long term perspective. Investors should carefully consider investment objectives risks charges and expenses. This and other important information is contained in the fun prospectuses and summary Perspectives which can be attained from financial professional and soupy read carefully before investing American funds distributors game member Fenra investing outside the United States involves risks such as currency fluctuations periods liquidity and price volatility as more fully described in the perspective. These risks may be heightened in connection with investments in developing countries. Small Company stocks entail additional risks. And they can fluctuate entice more than larger companies stocks. Lower rated bonds are subject to greater fluctuations in value and risk of loss of income and principles and higher rated on statements attributed to an individual represent the opinions of that individual as of the date published and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of capital group or its affiliates. This information is intended to highlight issues and should not be considered advice and endorsement or recommendation. Any reference to accompany product or service does not constitute endorsement or recommendation for purchase and should not be considered investment advice. This content developed by capital group poem of American funds should not be used as a primary basis for investment decisions and is not intended to serve as impartial investment or fiduciary is. American funds are intended only for persons eligible to purchase US registered mutual funds not all capital group model portfolios are available outside the US. The capital ideas websites are not intended for use by Canadian audiences in Canada. Please visit capital group DOT COM slash ca for capital Ruben sites or listeners in Canada commissions trailing missions manage hippies and expenses all may be associated with mutual fund investments please read the perspectives before investing mutual funds are not guaranteed. Their VALUES CHANGED. Frequently and past performance may not be repeated capital group funds are available in candidate through registered dealers for your individual situation. Please consult her. Financial and tax advisers Capital International Asset Management Canada INC is a wholly owned subsidiary of happen group. Please visit capital group DOT com slash ca for more information. American funds are not available in Canada for listeners in Asia Australia. The information in this communication is of a general nature this communication has been prepared by. Capital International Inc. a member of capital group accompanying operated in California United States of America. The liability of members is limited in Australia. This communication is issued by Capitol Group Investment Management Ltd. Acn One six four one seven four five zero one eight A. F. L. number four four three one eight a member of capital At eighteen fifty six Pitt Street Sydney. Msw Two thousand Australia. All capital brute trademarks mentioned are owned by the Capital Group Companies Inc. an affiliate company or find all other company and product. Names mentioned are the property of their respective companies were listeners in European countries excluding Switzerland and UK this communication is issued by Capitol International Management Company sorrow authorized and regulated by the committee on disobedience to sector a subsidiary of the capital group companies capital Greek for listeners in Switzerland this communication issued by Capitol International sorrow authorized and regulated by the Swiss Financial Market supervisory authorities been a subsidiary of the capital group companies capital. Were listeners in UK this communication is issued by Capitol International Ltd authorized and regulated by the UK Financial Conduct Authority a subsidiary of a chapel route companies chapel.

Capital Group United States portfolio manager UK Matt Miller Senator John McCain analyst China investment analyst government Joyce Gordon Europe Asia California Brexit H. It Parag Khanna FDIC
Myth and Legend  Kate Forsyth on the dark origins of beloved fairytales

Conversations

51:36 min | 9 months ago

Myth and Legend Kate Forsyth on the dark origins of beloved fairytales

"This is an ABC podcast. All this week, we've been bringing you conversations about myths and legends, and we couldn't possibly do that without featuring kate foresight. Kate's been on this program several times. Now, she's a novelist, the author of several bestselling works of fiction. And many of those modern retailing's of very old folks, stories and fairy tales. Of the stories that many of grow up with and then pass onto our own kids fantastical tales of magical. Transformations. Harrowing. Ordeals. With equal measures of beauty filth and violence. Kate for South was initiated into the world of such stories when she was a child. She absorbed them all. She spent long months in hospital. After she was mauled by a dog when she was little. Reading these weird folktales allowed Kate's mind and imagination to travel far beyond hospital bid. I spoke with kate in twenty seventeen about some of the true stories behind the fairytales that we've grown up with. Cinderella Sleeping Beauty Little Red Riding Hood. And the tile of Tam, Lin Hallo, Kate welcome back. Thank you so much for having me back again, lost time program. You mentioned in passing that the story of Cinderella that we all know. So well, actually originated in China with the story was once called Yes Shane. Told me that story has the Chinese told it back then look it is fascinating. Isn't it this story that that we think of as being one of the quintessential fairy tales of the Western tradition actually has its roots in China it's a very, very old story was first recorded in China I'm in the fifth century which which makes it. You know one, thousand, five, hundred years old. It's so. Since right at the end of the ancient world. It's an right at the beginning of stories I being written down It's quite a beautiful story. It's about a girl whose mother is dead who has a cool stepmother and has cruel stepsisters and they keep her working in the they keep addressed in mags. She's lonely. She's worked hard. She had no one on her side, but she has. A friend a fish, a goldfish in the fish pond and she goes there and she talks to the fish and she weeps in her tears mingle with the Paul and she thinks that fishes being like her dead mother. But the stepmother seeing how the girl takes comfort in the company of these fish has the fish court and kills it and cooks it and serves up to the go, and so she is essentially cannibalizing what she thinks always being the spirit of her own mother and the goal is Ashley distraught when she realizes that she's Eaten her friend the fish than old traveling man comes passed and he says to her do not fear the bones of the fish have great power, take them, hide them, use them at need and in the story continues in pretty much the way that we know it where the invitation to the patio comes in the girls not permitted to go and she goes initi- weep cinnamon. She asked for help from the bones and the bones dresser in an amazing golden gown and slippers of go that look just like fish scale scouse block the goldfish. Goldfish and she goes after the ball and she dances, and then she loses slipper and of course, sleep very, very small. And so when the prince come searching for her none of the ladies at the land have feet quite so small. Tiny fetus of the Jewish in China is that one that's exactly why when we think about the history of of binding women's feet in China doesn't sane. So perfect that Cinderella, the story that has this kind of. Fish with the smallness of a woman's foot should come from China a country. They actually maintained young women in order to get that tiny foot. So the stories courtiers looking for a woman with the tiniest foot been, and then they find yeah she and she you know the golden slipper will feature foot and nobody else's in. So she marries the story does go on pass. This problems with the bones and the Kenyans that throwing the bones away so that he has ago all to himself like many stories, the stench cost or is not always all that there is. So it doesn't end on and they lived happily ever after after she marries the prince of the Qing they. Very often. Often tragedy can't. That's amazing. So so it appears in China then much much earlier than it does in Europe does it make its way across the European after that? Well, what fairy task orders love to do is track the pattern or track the movement of fairy towns, and so we can find that these fairy tale of the goal the tiny foot. Travel along the silk, roads along with the silks and the spices and the diseases it traveled along Marco Polo. was famously one of the first people to penetrate into. China and to open up the trading routes and he returned to Venice in twelve ninety, and we can say from that point on, let's say the early thirteen, hundred, the beginnings of early Cinderella stories in the Western tradition. The first time it was wishing down and published was actually in the fifteen hundreds, and then most famously in the sixteen hundreds spy neopolitan courtier could GM Battista. Brazil. Who we find is actually one of the earliest sources for many of the world's most famous fairy tales. He has an earlier pennzoil. Re has an early Cinderella he has an early keeping beauty. GIAMBATTISTA Brazil was a courtier. He wrote he stories to amuse the caught. They are bawdy they are. We could. They are often quite lewd, and they are often extremely violent in in the way that cartoons a violet all in the way that some American movies have that kind of slip. You know black humor and kind of slapstick quantity to them and so he story is. Probably the first written down Cinderella. In the Western tradition, why do you think this story does travel what? What is its power that makes it travels and endure for ceremony? This is what fascinates me about fairy tales is, why do they endure What we find is that any unit of cultural information not just family towels but jokes and songs and Recipes, Riedel's why do they travel? Why does some survive and others giant and there are two basic reasons one is the most important must have some type of relevance to its audience and not just to the audience to the person who tells it why does tennis shoes to tell that story and not another story? Now, the Cinderella story is a story of. Being served. It's a story of a girl who is mistreated and you know. Who is alone and has nothing in her life and her journey towards discovering what she truly wants, which is to be loved and have a home of her own and to be happy, and this is a universal longing. It's way human being that doesn't long to beloved. How does the story changes of the one we know today Mike, you mentioned a golden gown and the golden slipper made out of fish scales. How does it turn into into a glass slipper? Well, the story that was told by Brazil, which was initially in the fifteen hundred, sixteen hundred. There's no mention of the golden slipper at all on his his actually ways patents which overshoes with very, very high heels. Noble women used to wear in Venice to keep their skirts and being muddied in the Kennels in things. And then the story moves to France you know we know that somehow the French very tau tellers including Charles Paulo manage to read I'm busier stories we don't know how because he wrote them in Neapolitan which is a very rare dialect and was not translated into Italian or not translated into French or German and the nineteenth century, and so somehow they got hold of these forty wicked fairy Taus initially Somehow translated them and then inspired a whole. At home renascent, very telling in fans. So Charles Perot somehow destroy. And then he we voted and he was the one that borden the glass slippers and the fairy godmother and the Pumpkin that turns into a coach in the my citerne into these are all the details at have helped Cinderella survive these beautiful. Motifs that now make Cinderella what they are he invented them. Much prettier and it's more easy to Disney fine this French fish. Mandic the but it lacks the kind of phoenix like the fact that in. The spirit of mother in in the fish and all this is her bones. That's that's kind of weed quality. lost. The stepmother so much more we could what's interesting is that I'm in my mania, there's a version of Cinderella which. is called fairly wide, and in that tale, the girl who is mistreated by her stepmother, her own finish, a cow and a cows called valley-wide and the stepmother kills a cow and serves a cow to the daughter, and so we have this this Motif of the cannibalization of the goes fairy help. But there's no mention of shoes and then Ashen Puto, which is the GRIMM brothers version. So the green brothers I heard action poodle from a very old, very poor woman who was living in a poor house in Marburg and the story was wishing down October eighteen ten and so far more. Vivid and dock and wicked tale than the romantic story of Charles Parole. But what's fascinating about it is that in Ashwin portal, which means ashfall. Full ash full. The girl has golden slippers, and so we can see by that that the GRIMM's all source was not the French tale. There was an older source that was actually coming from China bypassing easily bypassing funds because the detail of the shoe had been changed both the Italian and French versions of the story. So you're saying that this the story of Cinderella comes to comes out of China but different streams and different roads have different destinations. Exactly. What I'm saying doesn't arrive at one point in Europe and and disseminate. It's coming through different sucrets into different parts of Europe. Love, the way that you say it's coming by different silkworms because that's what I like to say is, well, it's following the silk roads and changing and each new teno of it takes a part of the tail that speaks to them and remembers that pot and forgets the rest. So in Romania they remember that the goal has to eat her fairy help and in France he takes. Detail of the shoes and turns it into glass slipper, his impossible impossible shoes but impossibly beautiful Italy. It gets sexy. Exactly right. That's that's very telling. Isn't it all all of this but the glass slipper though the glass slipper that single detail that makes the whole story. So incredibly memorable in the French retelling of the street what's going on there? What what? What does the Gloss Lipman? Dear. Glass was always extremely rare, extremely expensive and extremely fragile and glass actually really came from Venice dislike destroy did as well. You know Venice was like the the hub of the world trade and the hub of the world storytelling in many of the stories came to China and other places. Persia elsewhere came to Venice and then were disseminated outwards from there and so it glass and in court of Louis the fourteenth. Who is often called the sunken Court was one of ostentatious display of his wealth and so when we talk about, you know the palace at Versailles and the hall of Mirrors, which is a whole, which is hang on one side with great windows of glass and on the other side with matching mirror. So the whole loom seems to Shimmer with light when looking at what glass meant to the Court of the Sun King it meant impossible wealth impossible power in possible beauty, and so the Glass Lipa for Cinderella Syndrome as she was known in the fence joy. It it makes her utterly exquisite attlee expensive, perfect, perfect, and rare. What about another aspect to it? Like in China there is vision the shoes tiny. And in the French gloss both shoes have an element of cruelty to the don't they do these kind of. Fetishism about Tom isn't there and there is in the grim story is actually my own personal favorite. This is particularly true. The the grim stories cool of the more again in all these stories it's all about how tiny the shoe is but for the step. Sisters in the grim story ash portal or win the Prince Calms, and he tries to to put their foot, the foot wind fit, and so you know the mother Cinderella's stepmother tells the first stepsister to chop off her toes. So. She chops off her toes and then she squeeze into intimate who golden slipper and the doves helped ash put will go to to to to. Do, and so the prince knows that she's not ride and then the second. The second sister chops off her he'll to jam her foot in his tiny golden slipper and again, the doves go to to to to this blood in the shoe. This bride is not right. and. So that is how Cinderella or put listening that story is found to be the true bride because her foot she has to put a foot into a slipper that has been stained with the blood of the wounding maiming of her stepsisters feet. The Sunday in the actual process of putting on the Gloss Lebron Cinderella was well in my picture my mind the something about. Capturing her foot with that, but there's also. The, the man kneels when he does that he kneels at her while she she remained seated and confers some dignity upon hers. Well, in that process puts the glass slipper on I. Always keep thinking how much that Pogo Ho feet would have hurt by dancing on this guy. You know and then you see the young women of today that quick pull themselves wearing ridiculous shoes and you think can't you see gun? She see this is. How far back, these fetish with lean possible shoe goes. Feminism. She Cartoon Cinderella. Getting into the Pumpkin you know in in a beautiful dress, it's a kind of Disney's Cinderella, and then she's saying. Just because I like to wear pretty shoes doesn't mean I'm not a feminist. Indeed on a move onto Little Red Riding Hood. Now, this is one of my favorite stories and it's not really ever told these as it once was how old does the story a story got back she one of the oldest oldest of all the tales it's been traced back a thousand years and much further, and this actually does originate in the western tradition. The very first version of it was recorded in fonts in the medieval period at but they have been references to it. You know reference to the story in Alda Oh, nothing's like sermons. Letters, this is how we trace how old. Is when people I hang or it's just like the little go with. WHO has to go into the forest? I told her not to do it, and so when we get a whiff and slide that we don't know the story, but it's that's what people members, Icke, my teeth, and so what we're talking about the eleventh century, the twelfth. Century long long time ago in its original earlier versions, it's much bloodier and. How does it unfold in these original? The odor story is called the story of grandmother and it's the story young girl who? Sits, off into the forest to take him her grandmother, some food and her mother warns her which half to take it a path of pins or the path of needles the idea being the either pass. She takes his going to hurt the little girl and then when she finally makes it to her her grandmother's cottage well, everything is doc. She can't see her grandmother in her bed and the grandmother sister her little girl little girl is some food waiting for you in the Pantry and this meat and there's wine and a little eats and drinks, and then a cat walking pass only a slot would eat the flesh of her grandmother and. DRINK, the blood of her grandmother and the little girl here's this and goes on Oh, I've eaten the flesh of my grandmother drunk the of my grandma who's that in the bed, and then of course, Wolf disguised in her grandmother's clothes asks her to remove her clothes and so little red riding. Hood performs a strip tease for the wolf and each step being. So close closer to the bed where the wharf is lurking in disguise. But at the very last minute in his original story, the little girl says offer give me grandmother I need I need to go to the bathroom she uses much more direct and earthy language than this. Showing look that even if the even. Yes. Yes and the and the wolf says are will very I don't want you to run away. So tie this rope around your ankle and I will tie it around mine, and then I will know how far you've gone and so little go sneaks outside ties the end of the rope on does it from an cooled and ties it mandatory and then runs all the way home naked. I should add because of course, he's taken off order crows by this time, and so in that way, she outweighs the Waqf. What happens to the wolf? Never really knowing these story. But in later versions of the story, the punishment of the wolf becomes very, very important in chows pillows story so that he was the first one, actually write down this story and and we tell it the little little go in her in her Red Cape makes it to the cottage, and then is you know seduce towards the bed by the wolf and she's eaten and that's the end of the story she dies she's dead she doesn't escape she doesn't get reborn. So the wolf isn't a wolf at all the wolf's the devil is because there isn't the devil here I mean because nothing happens to the wolf in this because the devils eternal, you can't kill the devil. Story which you know the story grandmother the word for the wolf was actually the word that we would now use for Werewolf. And there was this idea that the wolf was actually at creature of dark and powerful supernatural powers a man by day in a wolf by night. So a demon. Yes. Even I, I like to think a metaphor for the weakness that walks around clothed in human skin. That's amazing that Kate Forsyth. That's not the story of Red Riding with my kids got. Well, if you remember last time we were talking about bluebeard and I said that Bluebeard is a story that is least likely to be ever being -cluded in a collection of fairy tales for children well, little, red. Riding Hood. Is the one that is very rarely chosen for children and when is it is so cleaned up so sanitized and the picture of the wolf is often a comic picture not a scary and dangerous one while the regional story. So full of menace so full of wickedness that it's almost unbearable to tell. Image you painted of Wolfson the documents just commanding to do these things is really chilly grandmother grandmother. Why are you close be or the better to hold you with my? Grandmother Grandmother Y. Your teeth so big. All the better to bite you. Dear. Is Their vision where little red riding till the wolf defeats the wolf. There is a version, the version, and told by the GRIMM brothers, the rim brothers anomaly accused of adding the darkness and the violence to the story. But in this particular case, Little Red Riding Hood was told to them by a young woman whose name was Janette hasn't flag and her grandparents were fench. That they were hugh, not who had fled France during the religious wars and when they came to journey are they bought many of their French stories with them and in her story they one told by Janette the wolf ate the grandma and then he eats little girl. Then the huntsman is riding past or or walking past and here's the cries and he comes in and kills the wolf and slits open the belly and both the grandmother and the daughter in a call out alive which seems little. Be anatomically difficult. Really. We'll scope tate and estimated a bit heaven. Said, that is the story that is most often told now in other versions of the story are versions of the story, the the goal cats away out the wolf's belly. And it has become a bit of a feminist fable. This idea of the go being warned not to wonder off the path of I ching associated fall into danger, and then the will be tricked by the wolf eaten by the wolf. A lot of Monday retailing's a little red riding hood have go absolutely cutting away free and killing and boosting the wolf at witching it herself. And that I think is one of the most interesting things about. Fairy Tales, they continue to be retold and each time at of retail story they leave fame and according to their own desire. Their own misses that they want the ferry touted. To cowie and set certainly symbols Little Red Riding Hood is so powerful slow potent that we can see a TV commercial now with a beautiful young woman wearing red kind of Hoodie and setting off into the city and you know straight away what did he? What is well when I imagined Little Red Riding Hood from my childhood I. Think I think if the story is largely in black and white or very muted colors with this this hot image of a red. Blood Red Cape and Hood in it. What's going on with this? What's that about? Can I tell you that there have been thousands of words we shouldn't about the possible symbolic meaning of the Red Hood. In a raid, of course is a cholera passion, the color of blood and the color of violence A lot of people say the hood as indicating that the girl is actually on the verge of puberty. It's it's of menstruation and that the story is about the dangers of ago glowing into a woman and many dangers that. Face in the adult world to me, it seems to point her out as a victim, a potential victim or potential food or something like that. Yeah. It's kind of flesh. That's what it is. I don't know I. Don't know these things until that talking about with you I suppose. UNHEALTHY, my reflections. Many other you know people have talked about it's a color of sacrificial blood, for example, if Sakala of. Of Life of rebirth, because essentially if the goal is eaten and then is cut after the belly of the wolf well, it's rebirth story isn't there's a lot of people who hang religious meaning onto the story a Little Red Riding Hood, which is not something that we would automatically think of nowadays but can I tell you the time of Charles Pillow. It was very much seen as being a religious allegory as well as a model warning a really unholy birth though isn't it out of the Billie of a mile based rather loosely. You know Jono and and being out of the belly of the whale. And other similar types of stories. CAST. Broadcast. And Online. You're listening to conversations with Richard fighter. Know more about the conversations podcast just head to ABC NANCY DOT EDU SLASH CONVERSATIONS Sleeping Beauty. This surprises me most of all win is this originate from the title of Giddy. Staving aiming is one of my own personal favorites for multitude of reasons, one because of the beauty of the roses in the phones and the girl asleep in her castle, but also the mystery in the darkness of the sensor cruelty of of being surrounded by these fawns. The very first. Straw. That is like sleeping beauty is Cottrell less Zinedine and it comes from the twelfth century again, fans it's the story of a go who three says abort to bless her at the Christening. But one of them is jealous because she didn't get as good knife as the other two goddesses and says, she curses her to fall sleep and they leave her in this castle which soon as overblown by bamboos and and Briars, and then a young prince is brought to her by magic win with Zifa. And then he comes in and he sees ruined castle and its inner story. The cost is very dark and it isn't a pretty space at all and the young woman lives. They're completely naked in this enchanted sleep in his Karma and his calm with last at the site of this beautiful young woman lying asleep, and so he has his his wicked way with her sir, he rapes her, and then he leaves her there in the castle still sleeping but she has she has conceived and over time. Her belly swells and then she gives birth she gives birth to treat children little boy and little girl while still asleep while still asleep says she still lying there in her coma and the little boy is searching around trying to find to to on and he finds her finger and he sacks at the flex splinter, which was the thing that that she pricked her finger upon and as soon as the flex splint is sucked out of her finger selling dean awakes and finds herself strangely mysteriously the mother of two newborn babies. What happens then well in this early version of the story that end ended the story but. She's delighted Oh she's unhappy or what I think that she's probably extremely extremely unhappy. You know she finds herself naked in a ruined castle I imagine being cold and fuelled with brambles and Briars that are gonNA tear that sweet white flesh of hers. Older, flat with two kids. And no no. No one to help no idea but. In the later version of the story which was again. Wishing down by Bazil GIAMBATTISTA. Brazil are neopolitan courtier, the boys called son, and the daughter is called moon and the princess new is co Talia. So the stories that she called Sun Moon and Talia and the father of the twins continues to visit her and he looks after her in the castle and then he he decides he wants to marry her but he's afraid because his mother is an old. And so he takes a children's home and he marries the princess and she lives in a castle but then wants to king leads off on on businesses. Kings always do the ogress. Terribly Jealous of this beautiful young woman in her beautiful children bribes, the Cook, the Castle Cook to kill I to son and serve it to her and then the little go and the thing is that the palace coup doesn't obey the ogress. He sews her young goats and lambs instead what she eats with great relish thinking that her grandchildren and then she finally wants the Princess's Talia to also be killed and served up to her I'm the king largest home just as a setting alight the pie that Talia is to be burnt on and the king then saves his wife and Burns, his mother. This is an exciting story. Is this about I mean from modern sensibility the wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Qualified Him and I tell them the story because of course, we used to the beautiful innocent waking of the princess with a kiss. Can I tell you that the story in the sleeping beauty in the woods by Charles? Perot is almost exactly a copy of the busy earliest story about Sun Moon and Talia even with the ending the ogress and the you know the serving up of the of the land in place of the kids. And then it was a grimm brothers. He Win Navy told the story that they dropped all the second half of the story and it was it was them that had the lovely princess working with a kiss. So you see the criminal is not really so grim when we compare them to the stories that come beforehand hand in the grim bother story, it's much more about the story of the Prince and his journey he has to to. Make his way through the thorns he finds he he into sleeping castle and there is the cook just you know who has fallen asleep in the kitchen narrow the women asleep at their loom they're the men asleep at their work in the car. So even the dogs so asleep even flies asleep upon the war everything is asleep and then when he kisses. When he kisses the sleeping beauty, the whole world awakens, and so with this particular story, we are actually it's being linked back in the way that the GRIMM brothers left to do too much much older stories we're talking about Pacific. Locked in the underworld, the sixth month of the year and win she's in the underworld in Haiti's the whole world is desolate and barren whole world is kept in winter. And then when percents any awaken when she comes back into the world of the living, then the whole world is, is we juvenile today everything blooms in spring and summer comes to land once more. is taken another hijacked almost grimm brothers will always interested in linking very towns back to back to earlier myths. Their primary interests is for them fairy tales with camouflage myth. Now, a myth is a sacred story. A myth is a story of Gods and goddesses of the making and unmaking of the world and to link fairy towns back to these incredibly old stories which seeped in sacred meaning and symbolism. Returns sacred meaning to the fairy towns, and this is one of the things. gwyn bothers when most interested in that will always looking to link it back now, bio arose, which is what the story is called in. The NBA's is clearly a story from the French tradition. But really hungry argued that because it's motifs linked back to earliest stories such as any and he was most concerned with North Myth Germanic myths and should this story a? Bring healed and seek fleet which is. Classic Classic, story from the NAS tradition. Know Breen held was kept captive in a castle and she was gutted by flames and in a siegfried the classic hero of Norse Mythology. He had to fight his way through the flames before he could awaken Brune held and when he woke entire, then the world was returned to spin. This idea that love makes the world wake up and the trees are green and the birds singing can. That's a very old ideas that loved us even older than Pacific where we going right back to the oldest myths of humanity where we can actually links sleeping beauty all the way back to each. who was a a Samir Ian Goddess the very earliest earliest wishing mythologies and in actual fact with each tar very listening better. We can only really see historian hieroglyphics in in. In statues in artifacts of a vanished civilization. But what's interesting is let's have a look at the fairy godmother idea. Now a win Charles, Perrault Roach, sleeping beauty in the would he had an eight fairies? And then that there were seven good ones and one evil one who was the one that cost the spell cast a curse. Now, eight is known to be this embolic number of Istar. And so this didn't actually appear in the Basil Story in a Basil wasn't really interested in old miss. He was interested in entertaining his highly sophisticated audience with naughty tails. You know they would have thought this idea of of a sleeping go being raped by passing prince as being hilariously. Funny. We could subversive but pillow was picking up on something older much older than that, and then when the GRIMM's retold they, they changed the number to thirteen twelve good fairies one on one wicked won miss, links at back to the NORSE mythologies. Now, your ultimately thinking of the Last Supper, which is what most people think about when they think about the number thirteen. But in actual fact, it's much much more than that. It's a it's the story of Loki, the wicked God of the North and he. He was not invited to a face because. Of. Gold. Plates and so in his anger, he curse Brent a WHO ended up in her castle surrounded by flames and so villain grim who is the one who made most the changes to the? He changed the number of fairy godmothers to thirteen to link it back more strongly to this ancient Norse myth even though it doesn't really have that connection manufactured after the. Jimmy Kimmel there's a mile. Mile equivalent of sleeping beauty, and that's an aerobics and my own book about the myth of the king under the mountain, which is like the king athletes. One example Charlemagne and others who are said to be sleeping under a mountain somewhere with lying on a on a CALC with. And Ship Wanders into the K. falls into the cave and finds King Arthur surrounded by his nights who say he's not did he he's sleeping in the in the sciences here lies Arthur the once and future king, and he's awaiting the day when he will be called back to action to save England again that was sort of Charlemagne and and and others as. Well. So many they they particularly president in coaches that have been affected by miss from the North I love this story I'm so glad that that that you bought this one out. So the peas in Celtic mythology and clean wheels an island in Scotland where the Celtics are the strongest multiple stories of the bed or small boy or passing you know merchant. Getting lost in the rain stumbling into a cave, finding the sleeping king under the mountain the minutes that. That's going to arouse. Yes. The Sleeping Woman's love. Yeah. That's interesting. Isn't it? What's in that but it's interesting I. Love Your idea that you know often there's a hone lying next to the king and you'll be brave enough to pick up the horn blow the horn to summon to awaken him and make my fourth again. Let's get back right back. Nuts that I store you sit. In. Into Sun Moon and Tanya. The original one where there's like this this complicated series of events that S- seems like very morally untidy if that's to modernize that there with the children and she becomes, she bears them all. She's asleep. What's going on here? Why is this such a powerful story, its own case? Well, the the idea of the sleeping goddess had children twins a boy and a go is is linked very. Much to the idea of applause automous and the other you know brother and sister goddesses and it makes Zelen Dean at a type of earth goddess, the model Gluons, and those very task orders who are interested in with logical interpretation is a fairy tales. Love this because to them the sleeping goddess is like A. A metaphor for the human spirit she stands in for everyone male or female anyone who is held in stasis held immobilized not yet woken to the world not yet woken to their own sexuality because sleeping beauty is very much a story about sexual bureau swimming. And this idea, this idea of the girl being held imprisoned and then being awoken by her own son by becoming a mother, it's very much a kind of maiden mother clone story and to some people link right back to the earliest matriarch mythologies. This idea of the movement from the virginal maiden food to the mother, and then to the old woman who carries within her all the wisdom of the world she gives birth to The Sun and the moon, and then they wake her up. So she's the earth. Wow, that's far out that this is this is really deep stuff. This thing is. So deeply felt as well. Tell me this. Why are these stories? Such cruella in their oldest. Versions and why do they seem to become more cut world? Prettier and more benign as time goes by well most people nowadays. Think that we live in a world filled with darkness and violence. You know they fear for their children they fear for the future of our planet they fear what may happen to us as humans to the human race. But the truth of the matter is is the world that we live in now is a pretty and more benign place than it has ever been before. Truth Right yes, and so if we're if we're talking about the time when many of these stories were Were invented were told and retold we're talking about a place that is full. Of Human violence and seems to be full of supernatural violence, there is no such thing as antibiotics is the simplest thing you can cut your finger. You can prick your finger on a phone and you can die of that wound. Many people have childbirth is deadly childbirth is deadly. Warsaw. Most young boys were raised to be Worley as it was more important that they were taught sought craft the net they were taught stagecraft. We're talking about a world that is seems to be ruled by mindless violence and where the world is very, very dark and fairytales. In coded stories of warning and of teaching, and they're kind of like pamphlets should teach the young how to get on in the world and so basically most very task. Tell you if you are strong enough if you are brave enough. You are kind enough. If you work hard enough, you can change the world. Every time a fairytale is authored. It's because the society around it has voted and so as our society has grown and changed so have the fairy towns. Disney does it turns them into stories about how you can you yourself up by your bootstraps like being individuals and through your individual efforts realize your way through the world, which is very American. Idea it's neat. Loved. Birth fairytales his favorite ones Snow White Sleeping beauty all these stories about. A character who goes to a period of harrowing darkness. But then his way on into a world of light and you must remember that Walt Disney was making began to make his fairytale movies in the ruins of the Second World War snow. Wise which is a classic leaper story was his first fairy town movie and is absolutely a story of someone who has to battle against wickedness and evil in the whole thing. About the poison apple is so so filled with meaning when you think that the Second World War was the first war to release poison gas and to use the the this idea of killing people through gasping through shower events and so forth. Whole symbolism of snow is all about rebirth and the regaining of a new world where evil has been vanquished to me. He never made a film of Hansel and Gretel now. Doc Spurs for Disney isn't it? Maybe he could have made it if it was before the Second World War with dock storm clouds on the Horizon Disney gets criticized a lush and I must admit I I have my reservations about some of his creative choices. However, if it was not for, Disney, many of these stories would have been lost it. The only thing that keeps very towns alive is they are told and we told and retold, and if Disney had not, we told them, then they may would have died and we would have been much pull forward. Cut Four south is with me telling the true stories behind many of those great fantastic Veritas the week or crop up with finally cates the story of Hamlin a Scottish folk tile this is. One that comes from Song just explain the street I don't know if that many people be will certainly wouldn't be familiar with the story of ten linens. These other three we've been talking about I was GONNA reasons why I wanted to talk about it because I really wanted to explore some of the stories that are not as well known have absolutely steeped in beauty and meaning and and all the things that fascinate me about fairytales Tam, Lin was first recorded as a ballot as a song. In the Scottish borders in fifteen, forty nine but we know that it had existed in various different forms much longer than that because you know were a reference to it here and there it's the story of a girl and she lives in a castle in the Scottish borderlands but her mother keeps warning her in do not go to Carter whole they you must. Not Go and she says, I am the why must I not go to Carter who and she says because the fairy Prince Tamblyn is there and he'd take supplies for all who trespass there, and of course, what can price be young woman would have to pay young man well in some of the sweetest always kiss. But in most of them, it's the taking of her maiden hold. Suggestion it goes to Carter Aho even though she knows that she that she should not go there she goes knowing that she must pay the price she goes willingly, and so this is what we would call the the violation of an interdict, the crossing of forbidden barriers. Soon, as a mother tells together, we know she's going to go the. Jet Because of this know to willingly go and face the danger in the magic of the mystery of the unknown she's fascinating character. So this is a threshold you crushes crosses fish step by step off the Safe Path and you cross the threshold is she does she does, and so she goes to Qatar Ho and she lies the Tam Lin and she finds herself with child. So I tell the story lots one of my favorite stories to tell and I say and the summa pass, and she was palest milk and the winter came. And she was found as a fool moon. So in some of the stories, she goes back to Kotte Aho to find timeline in some of the stories Chico's because she's searching for herb so that she can read herself the baby, but this is not the usual store usually she goes back because she wants to save her child's father Tam. Lame. Is actually human immortal man who has been captured by the Queen of the fairies. Now, when I say the Queen of the fairies, most people think of pretty little spackling things that help around buttercup. Tiny yeah. So he told me better said an English. I to ten years. One name for her sometime she's called Mab. Climate. In, the Scottish tradition there was the Sealy court and the Ansi record and the unseal court very dark and very dangerous but very, very beautiful, and so the Fairy Queen is normally described as being tall and Pale and beautiful, but dreadful. And, every seven years the queen of the fairies has to pay payment to the devil and it. It must be paid in human blood and Chicago that Halloween Tam Lin will be sacrificed to the devil and suggest it decides that she's going to save him and the only thing that she can do to save him is that she must not fear she must hold fast no matter what comes and so on the night of Halloween or all hallows eve and night win. Win The membrane between the WO- softens and Pats, she sees Tamminen. Riding with the Fairy Queen and she sees him in her arms and then comes a battle witchcraft and the Queen Transforms Tamil and interest series of beasts lions, bears, and Atas and ills anything that might hurt Janet that my winter that might damage her but Janet and then I, I, love the repetition of this phase she says, I, do not fear I shall hold fast. You are my one true love. I shall never let you go and there's usually seven different transformations and the final one. Tambellini. leanest transfer transformed into a burning coal. And class in too hot white Hart earning call she says, I do not FIA. I shall hold fast you are my one true love I shall never let you go and she flings herself holding the burning coal into a well, which extinguishes the flame and the heat of that call and lean is transformed back into a man. So Janet has one. And the Queen has lost and in McQueen says to him if I had known, I would have transformed your heart of flesh into a heart of stone I would have transformed. Your living is into is of wood so that you would never have seen that fair mortal face. And then she writes off. And Tamblyn Janet if happily ever after. That's a cracker of a story. I hadn't heard that before. I like I didn't know what was GONNA happen I thought she was going to drown in the well that that might be the price she pays because it seems like a lot of times in fairy tales to be honest women have to pay a price for getting their heart's desire all their way. One of the reasons why I love the story Pat Fabulous. Fantastic to how out loud with all patterns or repetitions all the way through the story of a young woman who. Is. Bold. Who is brave? She saves her man and I love that story It's also want to tell because if you ever go to Scotland if you ever go to a place called Mel lows, which is a Town nestled in the hills I it's an old abbey it's can. For and go down the road about twenty minutes. You come to a place called Tomlin's well, and this is this is said to be the place where the battle took place but can I tell you to actually wanted down this country vote and to come across one of those? It isn't a well like we imagine a well, it's a natural spring surrounded by stones just running over vox. To know that this joy has existed in this space for so long and is a natural part of the landscape I find that. Really Beautiful. I love etling me these stories. Kate on hope you come back again before to tell us another batch of fabulous folktales in the true stories behind them. Thank you so much case. Match, I spoke with Kate, in twenty seventeen code forsyth is the author of many books including the blue rose bitter. Greens Vassily said the wise. And she's working on a new nonfiction book with sister will be released later this year. I'm Richard Fidler. Thanks for listening. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with Richard Fidler. For, more conversations interviews cleese go to the website ABC dot net dot edu slash conversations. Discover more great. ABC podcasts live radio and exclusives on the ABC listen APP.

China Disney Kate ABC France Venice Europe devils Richard Fidler Brazil Talia Kate Forsyth GRIMM Charles Perot Scotland kate foresight Zelen Dean fish court Glass Tamblyn Janet
The future is Asian

Capital Ideas Investing Podcast

41:47 min | 1 year ago

The future is Asian

"Investments are not F._D._I._C. insured nor are they deposits of or guaranteed by a bank or any other entity so they may lose value. American funds are not available outside the U._S.. The following is not intended as an offer to purchase or distribute American funds outside the U._S.. Perhaps I'm Matt Miller this capital ideas your connection to the minds and insight shaping the world of investments with so much recent attention heaped on China. It's extraordinary growth the rise of its middle-class not to mention its emerging trade war with the U._S.. It's all too easy for Westerners to overlook the GEO economic importance of the rest of Asia is my guest Global Strategy Advisor and author for our economy argues in his latest book. The future is Asian us-based investors would do well to sit up and take notice of what he calls the fourth wave of Asian growth so listen and learn what the fourth wave of Asian growth is and why it's shaping up to war the first three why U._S. multinationals seeking to expand in Asia need to look beyond China and how Westerners blind spots botts about Asia compare with Asians blind spots about Asia before we begin the clarification you'll hear tyrod referred to Assia a term that may be unfamiliar to some of you. Hocine is an acronym that stands for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations Regional Intergovernmental Organization which comprises ten countries in Southeast Asia including Thailand Singapore Malaysia Philippines Vietnam and others and with that here's my conversation sation with Perran Perot Connor is founder and managing partner of future map a data and scenario based strategic advisory firm. He's the international bestselling selling author of six books including his latest. The future is Asian Commerce conflict and Culture in the twenty first century. He's traveled to more than one hundred countries holds a P._H._d.. From the London School of Economics and is based when he's not an airplane in Singapore parague dog welcome to Capitol Ideas. Thank you so much with you. I've really been looking forward to this because your book. The future is Asian. I think for investors especially investors who are based in America really calls on people to open their minds to what the future global markets are going to involve and in some ways brings fresh eyes and even challenging perspectives to folks who may be more domestically focused who are a little caught in some of the older narratives about what the global economy means and where it's GonNa Happen The next twenty five thirty years and I think the future is Asian has a perfect kind of introduction to think about that through some new is so just to start off. Why did you write this book for a couple of reasons first of all we've been way to China centric in our conversations about the rest of the world? It's as if the future of humanity boils down to the U.. S. China relationship and while that's important it isn't the only story in town. It's not even the only story in Asia as it turns out the data presents a very clear picture and here are just some headline figures China is one point four billion people which is a lot of people but Asia as a whole has about four and a half billion people so simple arithmetic there about three billion people in Asia who have not been part of our conversation. I remember the first time we met in Singapore and you share that little factoid that that does in itself makes you think well wait. It's not just about giant exactly and here's the other thing you know times change very quickly. You know China's deservedly we been the center of attention for now but one of the themes that I write about is what I call the fourth wave of growth in kind of modern Asian history. The first is of course Japan Post four decades. It's the rise of Japan that catalyze and inspired the tiger economies which were the second wave of of growth and is the success of Japan and South Korea Taiwan and so forth that actually inspired China whose opening in the nineteen nineties made it the third wave of Asian growth but that's not the end of the Asian story. It's kind of the mid point and and so now we're winning the fourth wave of growth and that is led by South and Southeast Asia the country's from Pakistan through India in particular through the OMNION economies like Indonesia Thailand Vietnam Philippines now. If you take those countries in this fourth Asian wave wave that's two and a half billion people so again just that subset of Asia is a billion more people than China. Every single citizen of those countries lives in a country with a younger median age than China. These are all younger younger than China. Most of those countries are now growing faster than China faster growth rate India alone today receives more foreign investment than China does zeon receives more foreign investment than China. Does Ozzy has a larger G._D._P.. Than India Nia does right so we really should think of Asia is economically multi-polar that along with many many other kind of blind spots that we've had towards Asia is a story that really needed to be told and so you wrote it because you thought there's just a misunderstanding standing in the West in particular about the diversity and the history and the the full complexity of there is a very important historical intellectual reasoning or motivation as well which is that Asians also don't don't understand Asia as well as they need to let alone us right you know we have pugh blind spots right but what's interesting is that Asians have been divided from each other for the last five hundred years I because of colonialism for about four hundred plus us is years and then the Cold War which created these obviously artificial divisions rigid alliances and so forth now the combination of colonialism and the Cold War sort of phenomena yielded a world in which Indians knew more about Britain they do about China Japanese no more about England or America than they do about <hes> about India right so Asians have now only in the last quarter century since the end of the Cold War started to rediscover each other but there isn't really a one-stop guidebook for an Indonesian to know what they need to know about Russia or for Kazakhs to get to know Japanese for Japanese to get to know you know Nesia and so forth so literally that's also why I wrote the book there's enough off about each country in Asia but importantly how they relate to each other but then also for us how they relate taught so you know I talk about the Asianisation of America the Asian Ization of Europe the Asian Ization of Africa the Asian Ization of Latin America. Because this is truly a global phenomenon this is not just for Asians to understand and we're going to get into each of those sub themes or chapters that you talk about but to start one of the things I found intriguing and again some of this may be challenging gene to Western ears but it's important because if you're right that the future is Asian people in the U._S. and investors who are thinking globally have to understand this it you talk about the western narrative of history and it's blind spots versus. What history looks like from the Asian point have you can you give kind of a high level sketch of those two things and what you think is important for folks to understand the differences and I should say for anyone who ever wants to undertake writing a book? Don't try to summarize seven thousand years Asian history in thirty pages. It's a have grotesquely difficult exercise. Yes but there you go. It's a public service now. Now you can popular is that right so going back to colonialism and the Cold War right for thousands of years prior to colonialism Asians had a lot more to do with each other than with the rest the world so when we talk about the Silk Roads and that's very popular expression these days silk roads connotes superior or periods of history when Asians really had tons of commercial and cultural interactions with each other with no reference whatsoever the West right it's only with colonialism the industrial revolution that Europe in particular became a ascendant so I wanted to emphasize that and sort of this relates to the whole idea of the reinforcing waves of growth from Japan to the Tigers to China and so forth that's also an Asian history looks like it's this learning process of Asian sharing language script religion <hes> ideas technologies and business and so forth right and today if you fast forward we are rekindling bundling this process again. We're Asians have such tremendous complimentarities. If you look at Asian economies today you see your financial centers like Singapore and Hong Kong you've got factory floors like Thailand and the Philippines Vietnam China. Obviously you have agriculturally rich countries. You have commodities providers. You have a labor surplus countries and labor shortage countries so it's extremely important to remember that when we talk about Asia it's not just China and it's not India is the new China or something like that. It's all of them at the same time because you cannot explain China without understanding Japan and what Japan has done in China and four China and you can't understand Pakistan without looking what China is doing for Pakistan you can't understand ozzy on without looking at the Chinese and Japanese Japanese companies that are offshoring their production into Southeast Asia so history history of Asian particular is full of these complimentarities in which societies mutually enrich each other and this is so important today because Matt as you know the trade war orders kind of the dominant political issue of the day and that gives you this impression that economics is this totally zero-sum enterprise right and all of Asian history quite frankly all of global history proves otherwise and so we really have to think about how these complimentarities are playing out in by following those supply chains following those trade flows following investment in capital flows we can start to make some pretty robust predictions of what the next growth markets are and so whether the general western Western narratives failed to understand about it is just that this happened this way so some of it is for example again that we'd focus just on China so this is problematic because we have this narrative that if China sneezes the rest of Asia catches a cold old and if China is decelerating which of course it is that means that Asia stories done. Let's pack up those up shop. You know we can play the interest rate rise in the U._S.. Better and let's just do that and game over that would be a big mistake right because again. The next wave of Asian growth is now underway is going to be a bigger story than China even was right and I say that with some confidence that's one mischaracterization another again. This sort of zero solemness right another is that well Asia's just riddle geopolitical strife. You've got China and Japan intention inch look at North Korea could just blow up Indian China almost had a border war two years ago then there's the south China Sea in Taiwan and the list goes on and on and on and I've spent years as you know looking at each and every one of these conflicts scenarios and yes they're serious but let's stop up and look back at the last thirty years. Not One of the major Asian conflict scenarios has exploded into World War three the way a many of us sitting especially in the East Coast <hes> have predicted so you need to go and understand how the Geo economic convergence has played such an important role in putting a lid on those tensions so that's another misperception say a word about trade flows because one of the interesting things you talk about in the book that I think people may not fully appreciate his how non U._S.. S. or Western centric trade flows actually are which really will shape <hes> growth prospects for major firms for regional firm in Asia as well as multinationals. <hes> you know working in Asia say a little bit about that so people have a feel for the magnitudes. I'm so glad you brought this up because another one of those misperceptions is that they depend on us right if they weren't exporting to us their economies would collapse. We still look at Asia as if it's a collection of these tiger economies where manufacturing lead export-driven growth is the key factor those economies first of all is a bit of a side point. That's not true you know Asia's now. Largely services driven economies just like us. They are the factory floor of the world and yet it's a smaller share their G._D._p.. That depends on right because they have had rapid urbanization digitisation `financialisation at lower income levels and we would have expected to be necessary more countries to really have more developed markets such as that but I'll come back to that later on trade it's been since two thousand four that Asians trade more with each other than they do with the rest of the world right so you could call it. south-south trade cross emerging market trade in the book I talk about Afro Eurasia the zone of the greater Indian Russian the country's from East Africa through the Persian Gulf South Asia Southeast Asia Pacific Rim right that became more than fifty percent of those countries total trade way more before the financial crisis so to the extent that we were look beyond our nose in two thousand eighteen thousand nine in the midst of the financial crisis when we were looking at Asian economies we were like Oh they're in big trouble because we we're looking at them like they were still in the tiger economy phase but in fact they had already leapfrog quite a bit and had deepen their internal trade so substantially that as we do now know in retrospect our financial crisis didn't really have much of an impact on Asian economies and once we realized that we started to get the sense that there is a robustness as to the Asian story and that <hes> you know trade is a big driver of growth internally for them and that is only increase that data point. I gave you matt fifteen years ago now. Look at what they're intra. Asian share is of their total. It's well over. For sixty percent so what does this mean well of course it means you've gotta be there. You've got to be selling into that story right because this means that the Asian firms have risen tremendously now obviously western multinationals have benefited tremendously to the extent that you have your supply chains in Asia you're manufacturing in Asia. You are building where you sell right manufacturing where you sell that is still the right model to have right and that's the result of smart globalization going back to the sixties and seventies right the unbundling of the supply chain on and off shoring production to Asia is what helped give rise to that same middle class. That's buying those iphones today right so what goes around comes around in a very positive way so by not joining the trans-pacific Partnership Trade Agreement obviously the U._S. is <hes> only deep tying one hand behind his back because now you have Japanese companies Korean companies Canadian companies Mexican companies Australian companies incrementally we already have some preliminary data on this eating into the market share that American firms have had in he's region so I hope it's not too late because in one of the very important points is that it's not either or you know in some ways. The title is a bit of a misnomer because I'm not actually arguing that the rise of Asia means the decline of the West. I'm arguing that Asia's just taking its rightful place again right. Every region of the world has its day in the sun and you know if you look at Global G._D._p.. It's extremely distributed right. I mean you know Asia may represent forty to forty five percent but it represents more than fifty percent the world's population and there's still a lot of room for per capita income to grow in those countries which means that business and thus the investors who are looking to partner in that kind of growth and we have good analysis of American multinationals does <hes> ranked by their degree of dependency on overseas sales and of I which I mean not just to Europe but also to Asian developing markets and it's a healthy number right. It's <hes> a strong maybe one third of American multinationals that depend and substantially fifty percent or more on overseas revenue and of that beyond Europe Asia is taking a very very large proportion so sector-by-sector we need to look carefully these companies you know when we look at valuations right of companies the these days or up until now we've been satisfied. That apple is doing well in China. Therefore apple deserves to be a trillion dollar company suddenly when earlier this year the revenue forecast in China came down a bit while their evaluation took a massive hit. You know well over one hundred billion billion dollars came off their market cap and the lesson from that is not to have all your eggs in just the China basket it's to realize that you've got high growth now in India in Southeast Asia so when I look at American firms today I say it's not good enough to just be in China China. You've got to be pen Asian right. That's so important for American investors we invest in these large cap companies. They're America's growth engines drivers. They are innovation powerhouses that still have an edge over other companies in the world. We need to see evidence that they are. Oh really exploiting these markets because as you said they're still so much poverty there's still a couple of billion people left to contribute to faster growth in Asia so like I said the best is yet to come and yet what's interesting also is in addition into looking at U._S. or European companies and their presence and their talent and being participants in those markets the scale that you're talking about of not just China Asia which is so big means that they're going to be regional regional companies that are superstars that need to be on the radar screens of U._S.. In other Western investors because their growth runway could be huge even if they're not New York Stock Exchange Company. Well you know a couple of points first of all we know that much of Asia's wealth is still in private. Hands and most Asian corporates are still in private hands so one of those key data points that I have in the book. It's so important for people looking in investing capital markets is that the market cap to G._D._p.. Ratio right is rather other high in the U._S.. <hes> whereas growth is slow in Asia your fast growth and very low market cap to G._D._p.. So if you think about this from the standpoint of the privatization that has yet to come the listings of companies on regional stock exchanges the amount of value creation. That's going to take place in the amount of investment upside that still remains in Asia is absolutely staggering because they've been very slow and cautious around privatization but that wave is really also taking off across Asia both enrich countries <hes> and in poorer countries so I think that's another one of the Big Asian opportunities there you're listening to capitol ideas brought to you by capital. Let's shift gears for a second and talk about different models governance because one of the really interesting things you talk about in the book <hes> from an Asian perspective is that these presumptions in the West that the Anglo American modes of democracy that Westerners are familiar with kind kind of figured out how to set the model for all time and one of the things you raise the provocative possibly to western ears is that people need to be open to the fact that different cultures may choose different models based on different values and the kind of pragmatic results they feel they're able to get say more about how we ought to think about that. In provide some examples understand you know there's <hes> this chapter of the book around the new Asian values and Asian values term was prominent in the nineteen nineties before before the Asian Financial Crisis of ninety seven ninety eight back then it was about Confucianism hierarchy obedience but wound up being sort of a excuse for the crony capitalism of those economies but twenty years later we can genuinely we talk about this sort of new Asian values. One of them is mixed capitalism right. The fact is the role of the state is strong even in Asia's capitalist economies it still strong Japan and Korea in India. I call this managed managed innovation to us the term manage innovation is an oxymoron we think of innovation is something that must occur through spontaneity and free enterprise and so forth but we're talking in a garage robbery in a garage must be in a garage not only is that a total mischaracterization duration of how silicon valley became Silicon Valley a but we're not that's not the subject of our conversation today but Asians don't feel that they can afford to fail right. They don't have time to fail. They don't have time to spread their resources across dozens of sectors actors were they may not have competitive advantages. Wait ten twenty years and see what happens right. They see what their skill bases. What the resources are what their trade networks are what technologies they can acquire what their universities teach what people are willing to invest in and they compute that they see you know what it's going to be solar panels for us you know or you know we've got lots of software programmers? We're going to do a lot of coating right they pick and they deep dive in the state supports it and they grow fast right so we've seen China obviously the frog. The whole range of sectors in this way Singapore Malaysia all these countries are practicing this kind of manage innovation so for Asians to make a long story short mixed capitalism is the norm. They're not uncomfortable with it. lazy-faire capitalism is not the Asian Asian way never will be the Asian Way and quite frankly as you well know in the last decade we've moved away from that as well so there's actually that of convergence and then electoral plane there <hes> then <hes> also getting the heart of your question technocratic governance right so I talk about how you know. Asians are very comfortable with a strong executive branch which is not an excuse for a strong man or an autocrat but they want to see a leader with a long-term vision a commitment to national modernization that is going to be executed over over ten twenty year timeframe. They're not going to trust leaders even if they're populist ones that get elected one sort or maybe twice they're gonNA throw out leaders for T.. Fast who are not going to focus on infrastructure on social inclusion on Healthcare Care Education on jobs all of those kinds of basics that they have lacked for decades so by the way just a very relevant point there more people living in democracies in Asia than the whole rest of the world now again. This is one of those you know you asked the earlier. What are some of the things we get wrong? Well we look at Asian All V._C.'s authoritarian China time out right right just three countries in Asia India Indonesia Philippines. That's one point seven five billion people in Democracies sees. I didn't even mention Japan or South Korea or there's more than two billion people in Asian democracies. There are not two billion other people in the rest of the planet in Democracies so Asia is the future of democracy but it's also the future of technocracy because people who are willing to give a certain allowance along leash to leaders who say I'm going to get this done. Trust me you know and so there's a fair bit of popularity for those kinds of figures so that's another thing that I dwell on in the book. What do you say to folks who are familiar with the success success in the touting of Singapore's a model but also have questions about civil liberties or would we in the West would consider traditional kind of political freedoms how should investors think about that as they look at the region over the long term well what investors are looking for war is good infrastructure and the rule of law right those are the two factors above all else over a long stretch of history that correlate most to the attractiveness to foreign investment not democracy democracy <hes> correlates but doesn't necessarily drive growth right as we know from China you can have growth out democracy so Singapore there things clearly that all of Asia's learning from Singapore China the biggest country in the world has learned how to China from Singapore the smallest country in the world which is what six seven million people well now five five so the fact is that a small country can teach a large country quite a lot but obviously there are certain circumstances that are peculiar to Singapore as a former British colony? The lesson I always emphasize is that they took the civil service that they inherited ferreted and they made it better today. Singaporean civil service as ranked by the World Bank or academic institutions is bar none the best in the world right so that is something that can't really be disputed and these are measured by things like how many P._H._D.'s you do have in the civil service one data tools tools and resources or they're using now much attention to they pay to cross country learning and case studies right and that's what the Singapore civil on the top talent wants to go into government service because they pay people well. It's not corrupt so there are loads of things that we can learn typically. You know when a question just like this is us you'd expect a Singaporean or even in my case and ex-pat who likes the place to be very defensive but I would say the real lesson of Singapore is not to be authoritarian the real lesson of Singapore's to have a really great civil service that has the interests of the people well first and foremost in their focus right. That's Singapore so Singapore is not shorthand for authoritarianism works because the truth is that again it's a former British colony and has seven political parties. One of them always wins but much of the reason why always wins. It's not like rigs elections because they only get sixty percent of the vote. They don't get ninety nine percent of the vote. This is not Russia or like turn minutes done. This is the single most educated society per capita on the planet earth right and it has mandatory voting one hundred percent of people go to vote otherwise you pay a fine. This may sound provocative people who don't know better but honestly I hope it becomes obvious to everyone. It's the most democratic culture I've ever seen in my life and I'm from India grew up in America and Germany right so I come from democracies. That's my background and I'm a political science who writes about this stuff and studies it closely. I've never seen a country where there's more argument. They argue all the time right like Switzerland which is truly the most democratic country in the world procedurally but culturally I would give an edge to Singaporeans appoints because there's no complacency they argue tooth and nail over everything I wanNA make sure that listeners get a good feel for some of the other angles of vision you're bringing to the future of Asia none of this by the way should stop people from reading in the book and at least buying it because we can only do very headline level insights into the fullness of what you have all this take people through a couple of little things. I'd like to cover the Europe Asia kind of relationship the Africa Asian relationship and then also so what's quite interesting is the Latin America Asia relationship all of which have their own rich history there on rich complexity and what you're playing at in ways that I think aren't really on the radar screen if you're just reading the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal every day. You don't realize that there's just massive stuff going the Europe and Asia convergence is really the biggest story out there right now in the same way that the rise of Asia's bigger than China and we miss that commercial integration addition of Asia Europe and Asia Sherry landmass they share a continent right and now with the belt and road initiative they are moving headlong towards more efficient trade with each other now. Here's the headline fact that everyone in America needs understand Europe <unk> our strategic partner our cultural ally or historical friend across the Atlantic our trade with Europe used to represent the bedrock of the world economy right in the era that you and I grew up in you know in the Cold War and immediate post Cold War period but that out today represents only one trillion dollars of trade year now Europe and Asia again across the continent of Eurasia they trade one point six trillion with each other so Europe has more at stake with China Europe has more at stake with the rise of Asia than we do when we look at the world for the Lens of as you said Financial Times or Wall Street Journal or New York Times or whatever it's all about what the U._S. does trump's trade war. It's again the bilateral U.. S. China relationship is the most important geopolitical axis. Assist in the world literally not true right the Eurasian integration is a much bigger economic story and our partners friends and allies in Europe have a very different view and strategy towards China and Asia than we do right right now. The headline is well. They do agree with us on China's not protecting intellectual property China having state subsidies all of these things that is true but they haven't launched a trade war with China have they right they got leaky shown to do a state visit around Europe recently and they signed a declaration to privilege European companies as China opens up and that's going to be bad for us and good for Europe right and we see this happening and then <hes> Xi Jinping made his state visits across Europe the week before that and not only did he get Italy to join the belt and road initiative but he handed Airbus giant aircraft order that obviously comes at Boeing's expense right so Europe's approach to China and Asia is very different. They want to engage. They want to integrate commercially. They want more our infrastructure more free trade. Agreements Europe has an F._T._e.. With Japan that went into effect early this year it wants the same thing with Ozzy on economies the same thing with India meanwhile as I said before we didn't join the T._p._p.. We are giving <hes> a really hard time to you. Japan <hes> on automobile industry to Korea on steel to India on a whole host of sectors. We're alienating geopolitical allies and our friends and Europe is going in there eating our lunch so that chapter of the book goes into all all the different dimensions of how Europe is pivoting towards Asia and away from us now talk about the Africa Asia relationship so use this from Afro Eurasia earlier. This is the term that historians used to capture that precolonial world prior to the sixteenth century trade across the Indian Ocean was thriving in the terms Afro Eurasia love about that word is it captures three major regions of the World Two continents your Asia and Africa in one term and that world like I said before his already back right it represents two and a half trillion dollars of annual trade more than sixty percent of total global trade is just in that zone and of course geographically that doesn't include us so we need to be see there being those markets do joint ventures their produce their cell into that story get behind any of those tariffs or other restrictions that those countries have in order to make the most and benefit from it again. The rise of Asia does not mean the decline of America. You know we need to be there in order to be influential there and bring those revenues home. It's all very circular and integrated global economy right so Africa's fascinating because European countries have been slow to realize that their unwillingness MR reform their agricultural subsidies to have kind of still colonial mentality towards Africa doesn't really reflect the reality on the ground. The reality is that Africa has been exporting heavily now to Asia Africa's trade relationship with China and India is far greater than with Europe today and that's only growing and now it's going the other direction also with investment right traits followed by investment and what you also sees a huge amount of Asian foreign investment now going into Africa helping with its infrastructure to unlock those bottlenecks setting special economic zones for manufacturing and so forth so the linkages are getting tighter and tighter and say a little bit about the Latin America Asia connection. I guess I've always been aware of it but it's amazing the size of the Japanese population in Brazil the for example yeah. I've been writing about this. Mostly from the standpoint of how China has led Latin America's reorientation you know opening to Asia going back fifteen years but is really deepened that data for this book and <hes> what I found was that China is now the largest trading partner for every single country in South America and that alone is quite a reversal from the Monroe doctrine. Let's say they're on the nineteenth century but the fact that surprise people and Secondly Kinley the fastest growing trading partner for Major Latin American economies is India which is even further away than China is just to put this in geographical perspective right the Pacific Ocean is the planet Earth's greatest latest natural barrier to human contact and despite that we have so much connectivity and complementarity across this Great Pacific Ocean that you know what we think of is underdeveloped purely commodities driven driven a poor Latin American countries are trading more with China and potentially soon when they more India than they are with us and we are their neighbor to the north and their former geopolitical master so in other words times have changed right but what's also interesting now again with the T._p._p.. Trade Agreement Right. We didn't expect that Latin countries would be so enthusiastic about joining it after we pulled out of it but they did so one thing. That hasn't gotten enough attention that I know you've got some thoughts on is the fact that the M._s._C._i.. Index is now taking a bigger chunk of China. Yes trying to becoming a bigger portion of that. What are the implications of that the next five ten fifteen years explain what is on how investors should think about that you M._s._C._i.? is taking a long time to come around to including China mainland shares but that's out of potentially you could say a healthy abundance of caution when it comes to making sure the Chinese companies as meet the standards of corporate governance that we expect them to include in these indices because that's where our pensions and assets in our portfolios are invested after all but now that it's happened now that you have not only China mainland shares included M._C._i.. To a growing in degree but you have Chinese capital account liberalization this year so you're gonNA have more and more Chinese companies that are going to be screened and taking foreign capital and to Chinese equity markets but others will follow suit right in the same spirit of how it's not just China. It's the rest of Asia's well in other countries India Indonesia and so forth are looking at China be included in M._S._C._i.. The huge capital flows that come in as a result of them saying we want to do this to we don't WanNa have current account deficits right. You know we wanNA raise foreign capital. We want let be able to have a bit of wiggle room with our currency and so forth and be able to be fiscally expansionist to meet our investment targets and goals and so he won't be long before the M._C._i.. Expansion to include China won't be just about China either right and that's what I think is again a huge opportunity because you'll see the reforms regulatory reforms the corporate governance reforms kicking in like I said privatization stimulates a lot of this reform is going to be very very big story in emerging market Asia so you see more corporates from those countries getting included as well now from the point of view of those countries. Are there risks associated with this as well if there's so much money as passively managed today so if the index now has a bigger chunk of China in it you get all these. These inflows coming in is it then vulnerable. If the outside money changes its point of view or decided governance isn't what was expected when China in that case was included in the index or anything for a couple of reasons. We could have a bit of perspective about this first of all. It's still not a huge chunk of M._S._C._I.. Right it's it's not all that significant yet and then then you know because passive capitals long-term allocations and so forth. I don't expect this is not hot money right. This isn't going to be just the sort of short term portfolio capital all kind of investment portfolio managers the institutional investors in the U._S.. That are looking are themselves very cautious right anything you know again. They're wise to have been reticent and to wait and see how China performs now these companies companies who what their fundamentals are and as Chinese capital calibration proceeds this year you can see a lot more data driven analysis by Western fund managers around the story so they're not diving headlong without taking into account the risk so of course there there is always a sort of connectivity risk and so on but I think the upside is obviously still at this point a much much larger than the downside. There's been a terrific conversation. We could go on for hours that are time is sadly limited so Perot Khanna just some parting thoughts just what should investors keep top of mind from all your work in this area that you've put into the book so well. Let me reiterate one or two points just I that you know this. Fourth wave of Asian growth is really the big story right. It's as big or bigger story than China and the China story is hardly expired right so again you have mutually reinforcing waves of growth so don't cool on Asia by any means rather. It's not too late right to allocate more to Asia and one rightly should based on the structural fundamentals of Asian economies where the Global Bible economies is going so that's one the other is the one of the reasons are still a long way to go is because we are talking about five billion people and they're still in mostly young countries not old countries right like <hes> South and Southeast Asia so bear in mind that Asian governments are doing the right right thing right now they are investing in connectivity and infrastructure in inclusion. They have very pragmatic policies on this they again mostly democracies. They are not going to get reelected unless they do the kinds of things that are going to unlock that economic potential bring bring people into the economy. That's obviously very good for their growth potential so I want to remind people that these are not places that are tinpot dictatorships other than North Korea but don't why your portfolio is not in North Korea right now. You know maybe when we come back in twenty years <hes> so on the whole Asia is going to continue to deliver as a result of those demographic fundamentals on the third is to be sort of policy advocates right because we don't have forever on the one hand said it's not too late on the other hand. I want to go back to your very important point. which is is that regional companies are going to start taking over a lion share regional business could be regional consumer good companies? I see this fashion with retail. <hes> you know a food and beverage hospitality airlines hotels you name it. <hes> you have have a lot of Asian companies coming on very strong and they produce at Asian prices for Asian customers right so in purchasing power parity terms you know we have to really be mindful of how Asian consumers operate in the market and become more sensitive to it and structure Dr Our business plans accordingly. The book is the future is Asian commerce conflict and Culture in the twenty first century. The author is Parag Khanna Parague. Thanks so much for joining us on capital ideas my pleasure thank you. We love hearing from our listeners so tell L._S.. Our doing please review capital ideas on itunes or if you prefer to send us your feedback including any topics you like to see addressed shoot us an email to capitol ideas at calf group Dotcom might just find your idea discussed discussed here on a future podcast for capital ideas. This is Matt Miller reminding you that the most valuable asset is a long term perspective investors should carefully consider investment objectives risks charges and expensive this and other important information contained in the fun prospectuses and summary Perspectives which can be obtained from a financial professional and should be read carefully before investing American Funds Distributors Inc member then investing outside the United States involves risks such as currency fluctuations periods of illiquidity and price volatility has more fully described in the perspective these risks may be heightened in connection with investments in developing countries small company stocks entail additional risks and they can fluctuate in price more than larger companies stops lower rated bonds are subject to greater fluctuations in value and the risk of loss of income in principle that higher rated bonds statements attributed an individual represent the opinions of that individual as of the date hopeless and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of capital group or its affiliates this information intended to highlight issues and should not be considered mice endorsement or recommendation any reference to accompany product or service does not constitute endorsement or recommendation for purchase and should not be considered investment advice this content developed by capital griddle home of American funds should not be used as a primary basis for Investment Yup decisions and is not intended to serve as impartial investment or fiduciary vice. American phones are intended only for persons eligible to purchase U._S.. Registered mutual funds not all capital group model portfolios are available outside the U._S.. The capital ideas websites are not not intended for use by Canadian audiences in Canada. Please visit capital group DOT com slash C._A.. For Capital Group incites or listeners in Canada Commissions Trailing Commissions Management Fees and expenses all navy associated with mutual fund investments us read the perspective before investing mutual funds are not guaranteed their values changed frequently and past performance may not be repeated capital funds are available in Canada through registered dealers for your individual situation. Please consult your financial and tax advisers Capital International <music> asset management. Canada is a wholly owned subsidiary of capital group. Please visit capital Dot Com Slash T._A.. For more information American funds are not available in Canada for listeners in Asia Australia. The information in this communication is of a general nature. The communication has been prepared by Capital International Inc a member of Capital Group A company incorporated in California United States of America. The liability of members is limited in Australia. This kind occasion is issued by Capitol Group Investment Management Ltd Eighty one six four one on seven four five zero one eight l number four four three one one eight a member of capital located at level eighteen fifty six Pitt Street Sydney M._S._W.. Two Thousand Australia all capital grew trademarks mentioned are owned by the capital group. Your Company in an affiliated company fund all other company and product. Most mentioned are the property of their respective companies when listeners in European countries excluding Switzerland and U._k.. This communication is issued by Capitol International Management Company sorrow authorized and regulated by the chromosome disavowals interceptor enunciate a subsidiary of the capital group Companies Inc.. Capital for listeners in Switzerland. This communication is issued by Capitol International sorrow authorized and regulated by the Swiss Financial Market supervisory authorities then a subsidiary.

Asia Taiwan China Southeast Asia India America Japan Europe West Singapore Gulf South Asia Southeast Asia China Asia Matt Miller Association of Southeast Asian China China Ozzy Switzerland partner south China Sea
Why Capitalism Needs Democracy

Capitalisn't

25:19 min | 4 months ago

Why Capitalism Needs Democracy

"High-capital isn't listeners. As many of you we are taking some time off to spend with our families even if in many cases over a screen still is quality time with our families so spy by the recent elections with this other to produce a very different podcast different. Because it's just bethany. And i discussing what we think about a topic and two because the topic itself is quite different economic. Podcast don't talk about democracy. But i think democracy is very important not just per se but also for the functioning of the economic system our best wishes for the best possible twenty twenty one after Difficult twenty twenty will looking forward to a fantastic two thousand twenty one together. Thank you so bethany. Are you familiar with a silkroad. Well two different silk roads right. There's the one a colleague of mine at vanity fair wrote a book about the infamous one. But then there's the network of trade routes which connected china and europe so which silk road demean the infamous. One soup road. I launched in two thousand eleven as an underground website where users could browse anonymously for drugs. It was amazon dot com with a black market bent. So i have to confess. I never used it. Did you know. I'm very boring. I don't do that stuff. But i read a lot about it so i can't tell you the fact that the founder was actually a libertarian. Follower of rothbart murray rothbart. You mean the economic father of libertarianism. Yeah say that. He's the father of anadarko capitalist but yes he's view was that for the market economy to walk. The state was not only a necessary. It was that we mental out of that stunning arrested the drug kingpin. Who goes by the name. Dread pirate roberts pierce cornered. The internet drug market is real. Name is ross brick. Okay i could talk forever about silkroad. I think it's a fascinating story. But i thought today we were gonna talk about the relationship between capitalism and democracy. Indeed we are what we want to discuss this episode which is capitalism and democracy relate to each other. I'm bethany mclean. Ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism. And whether greens and losing gallus. We have socialism for the very rich rugged individualism for the poor and this is capital. Isn't a podcast about what is working and capitalism is. There's some society you know that doesn't run on greed and most importantly what is it. We ought to do better by the people to get left behind. I don't think we should kill the capital system in the process. So i think unless you are an extremist on nocco capitalist. You think that there is an awful this date to where the very minimum enforcing property right breaks thought that the silk road was a fantastic onomic simulation. That will let people see what was like to live in award without this aesthetic use of force because enforcement and property rights is jolyon falls by the power of the state and the power of the state is ultimately a monopoly famously. Max weber said what defines state is their monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. The problems started to arise when because you have to actually deliver the drugs the suppliers at a record of where the customers were living. That created the possibility of a black man so at some point break was faced with a blackmail and that if he didn't pay certain amount of money than immediately the least of all his clients will be published in that will destroy his website. But we're has decisions. And what did he do. What would you do any well. I guess it would depend on how much i believed in a world without rules actually tried to hire a contract killer on the web as many more upset philosopher. He wasn't particularly good at it. So we ended up hiring an fbi agent that reporting and so now using jr and that is the end of it. So you think that this is a referendum on the anakra capitalist dream no is it proof of concept rather than a friend whom. I think he's clear you do need rules. They often the perception that capital is is just less affair if you asked us to zero any form of government invention. Naturally things would blossom in the perfect way. That's not true. Avai minimum even most of the less offend people. Say you should enforce the law. But then who enforce the law in the interest of whom so we have seen recently for example when it comes to race that the he's doing america is terrible on this front as now being enforced in an impartial way. And how do you get an impartial. Enforcer of of rules because it seems to me that in a in a democratic system the enforcers are always partial. That's almost as a matter of definition. You're absolutely right that there is a natural tendency to try to influence. Who is the way which you may is system. They difficult to alter is by bringing everybody as a referee. The reason why is so hard to manipulate a bit kind is because the system vacation relies on everybody being very fire at some level. Democracy is exactly that. If i can bring everybody to get involve is too expensive to bribe everybody. We got a system that as churchill say maybe is terrible but it's better than every one else that has been trying. I am phil unique among economists. Because i do believe that. Capitalists can only survive properly in a while functioning democracy so it seems to me that that's the theory of democracy but not the reality of it particularly it seems to me in a capitalist system where monetary rewards accrued of the vectors. You're absolutely wide. Even within democracies we are more or less imperfect democracy so john mass asaka just came out with with a book called. Let them rule looking at the experience of referenda in the united states. That's the purest form democracy. Which is iraq democracy while even referenda can of course be influenced by money. I think it shows that the influenced by vested interests lash than the stander legislation. So it's a way to bypass a lot of the roadblocks that you have and have more that people will. After the reason why in florida the felons had been we've franchise wrench is is thank to toronto. Florida was one of only a few states that banned felons from voting for life until twenty eighteen when a majority of floridians passed an initiative giving felons who have served their sentences. The right to vote back if you add to wait for the florida legislature. They were still upholding a law. That was coming from the gene core era not allow convicted fellow to vote even after they serve the turns right so other than a referendum. How do you find this impartial referee that you need to make the system work so i think that is very very difficult to get impersonality but the idea of bringing in these interested voters in the sense that they don't care but is interesting because they don't have any strong vested interest way another and so they're are more likely to side with what is the right thing to do. I think that this principle pervades the american system. I think pervades to stand most of the western democracies and i think is the right principle i unfortunately in the united states we have drifted a lot from this region of principle but idea is valid one. Yep but isn't in a way isn't this aspect of democracy almost anti-theft capitalism and that in capitalism the rewards accrue to the owner of capital at the expense of the workers and capitalism is sold to the highest bidder. And so isn't this in some ways the opposite of what a democracy strives to do. Yes but i think that that's exactly why they represent the perfect balance. You need a balancing act attention between a democratic system that tend to redistribute taking away from the top and give it to the bottom and a capitalist system that tends to avert war disproportionate the people at the top. If you go to match in one direction you have a populist system that does not reward enough enterprise and marriage and so on so forth if you too much the opposite direction you ever plutocracy. That is extremely negative for a large fraction of the population. And my fear is that the pendulum as shifted too much in the direction of plutocracy in the last twenty years in the united states so capitalism taken to an extreme becomes undemocratic and democracy taken to an extreme becomes uncapped elastic at the end of the day capital trying to distribute power in a system that is regulated. That tends to be more state control. You are in enormous concentration of power. And i think that both in the economic system and the political system. Power corrupts and absolute power co. outs absolutely and so the way to say both. Our democracy and our vibrant economic system is to fight against the constitutional power in edo the two sectors. So what do you think most often goes wrong. What are the capitalist forces that work against The ideal of democracy one is evade strong inequality in awarding which is to butte for me. Large head of which people you are facing eating a democtratic system a lot of resistance. But if you have to with is only a few. That's very very tempting and so as a result. If i am a super-rich person. I started to build a system to protect me and once i build a system. I'm not only protect my wealth. I also ever system that enhances my wife take for example. Somebody like carlos. Lynn used to be one of their. We just man on earth. He lost thirty billion one year simply as out of deregulation in the telecommunication market in mexico. Because he made most of his money by having very uncompetitive market and being the defacto monopolists in this noncombatant market is very hard if you are colors liam and you are the richest man in mexico and one of the interest in the world not to use your power and influence to block that reform nattily. That reform was only made possible through the pressure of the cd. And then i'm told by my mexican friends that after it was passed an ad they pose the fact they started with holding back stab at the step and the pressure of carlos slim and i had a former student who actually came to class and show me a picture of the wedding of one the daughter kathleen and the head of the telecommunication authority was singing and dancing in church. The fact that as a head of telecommunication you're invited to the wedding of callously and you go to. That wedding is pretty scary to me. That is a wonderful and terrifying story and perhaps indicative of similar situations in the us. Right where do you think we are in that trajectory where the people in power those in charge of setting the rules and those who want to see the rules made in a certain way are all sort of in it together for lack of a better way of putting it. but what is your view of democracy today. I think we're at a point. Where the imbalance of money and power in the us is threatening democracy. I think you can see it in a whole bunch of places on the most obvious way you can see in the sheer of money that is thrown at elections in a less obvious way you can see it is the way lobbying forces distort decisions that come out of washington and i think a way that has even more influence but is harder to see you can see it just in the influence that the very wealthy and that big business have on the rules that are in place in in our democracy And you can even see it. Through through charitable giving which philanthropy and large part has become a reflection of the whims and wishes of the very wealthy and those worlds are no longer intention with each other philanthropy. I'm not sure. Really a countervailing force against capitalism at its worst it's sort of serves perhaps to quiet protests and then i'm influenced heavily by An andrea hardest is great great book and this but i i think it's true and so i think the forces of money and power eating away at some of the foundations of democracy. I think that the united states went away gigantic. Swing if you go back to the seventy s there was this big strong anti-business sense there was price control. Wage control restrictions on capital movements tax rates. Were extremely high and so fourth we have gone a hundred eighty degree of change. Now we are in the opposite in which the influence of the general both in academia in the war of the news and in politics is gigantic. I'm sure you have seen recently. The ewings of the four big tech titan in front of congress. It was so much park concentrating. Those four guys. That is pretty scary. Yes it is. Why why do you think that change came about. I think we are maybe starting to see return in the pendulum. But it's interesting. My father and i were talking about this. And that when he was growing up and even his ears as a young man there was a respect for regulators. That was a job that you took on and you being a civil servant was something that was highly regarded and now being a civil servant has almost become a door toward a job at a at a firm where you can then go on to make a great deal of money. They thought about that. A lot during the financial crisis when we looked at the people who were in charge of enforcing the rules and setting the rules and they were basically the same people as the the big bank. Ceo's and the titans of the financial world they had all somehow melted into one. And i i thought about that. Also when i thought about new york city changed new york in so many ways as a bellwether of the country but new york city changed over the course from the nineteen seventies to today where there used to be uptown and downtown and they were two separate worlds right. The artists on the bankers didn't mix and match and it became a world of oneness and in some ways maybe just like with capitalism and democracy may be you need. You need attention between the people who enforce the rules and the people who are subject to the rules. I think he's as often the case that result of a lot of factors moving at the same time but i think one big factor is the fall of the soviet union and the fall of the berlin wall as long as this scar of a wall is permitted to stand. It is not to the german question alone that remains open but the question of freedom for all mankind and the perception that capitalize as triumph thousands of east. Germans came across the border today. Thousands and thousands came to look even gate but this showcase of capitalism as long as the walls communist alternative even the more pro business side felt the need to for example. Be more understanding of the situation of workers and afraid to appear too much. Controlling the electoral process. Part of the natural balance in the united states is clearly that publicans had been the more business party. The democrats especially in the seventies could easily be seen as an anti-business party but there was a bit of a check and balance in place why because the republicans were kind of embarrassed to completing the pocket of business because democrats could attack them and with the fall of the berlin wall they embrace business so much that tough to compete for the same funds and so there wasn't there a check and balance. There was a competition for who is getting more imbed with business to get the maximum amount of funding from business. That's fascinating in points to a larger philosophical issue. I guess which is the necessity of alternatives in life and the necessity of a certain kind of tension to keep the extremes in check. I completely agree. And i think that actually ideology played a very big role in in keeping people honest in i in a country that had the largest communist party in the west for much of my early youth the members of the communist party where incredibly honest even when they took some local power position researcher and and part of it is because that is as strong ideological element and then once the ideological element collapse then was a race on. Who was getting more money. You can see this also in in. us politics. I was thinking when you were you. Were talking it was fascinating about the fall of the soviet union. Because i'm thinking back to some reporting i did for the last big book co authored. All the devils are here which was about the financial crisis. And there's a conversation. I had that that stuck in my mind it was with an old school. Republican strategist and operative and he said to me an old school capitalism. There were just these guardrails on the sides of the road. You've just didn't go there and it wasn't the laws told you not to go there. You just knew you didn't because if you got out of line somebody was going to discipline you and there was this moral dimension to be done and i've wondered why that changed into me. Some of the biggest marks of how that changed where obviously the subprime mortgage crisis where people had no compunction about giving mortgages to people who couldn't pay them back as long as they could get their as an and get out of the way. And then i think about the game. Valiant played and then copycat companies played with just raising drug prices as much as they possibly could without inventing anything new or creating anything in other words without even a cover of what it's supposed to mean to be a capitalist and i was wondering how that moral dimension got lost and i think your point about being the existence of an alternative whether it was the alternative as the old democratic party or the alternative is the soviet union that may be created that that what seemed like a moral fabric more than any kind of moral moral fabric. Actually does that make sense. Absolutely but i will out another couple of things. One is the experience of will were to even after water. The call war created a sense of togetherness country says you you felt a loyalty to the country by lawrence the country obligation today citizen of that country and that was a important driving force with the fall of the berlin wall. The end of the cold war we all became internationalist. And so you don't even know which country you belong to. And so the lee you have much more regions to people that think like you around the world than your next door neighbor or the person who cut the grass for you and i think that's where the cohesion started to fall apart so in an odd way. Even though today were taught that nationalism is a bad thing or a dangerous thing in an odd way perhaps you need a certain level of nationalism to ensure the to ensure that both kept that that capitalism stays within bounds and that democracy functions as we would like to. Yeah in fact is an economist. Any rodrigue this as a trial. Emma that you cannot have nation state deep economic integration and democracy at the same time a nation state you vote at the local level and then this local level is represented. Really when he comes to the intonation are choices so many donation choices might be good for the water. Large manar for your little polity and so either you. Don't let people vote or you don't add in auburn. Economy is hard to have all the three at the same time. And i think that that's very true if where we've gotten to is that neither democracy nor capitalism are functioning as we would ideally like them to in the us and when you look at places around the world where there is capitalism without a democracy. What do you see from china to hungary where you have an authoritarian government and a capitalist society. Are there any lessons there that you think apply to this conversation. The risk of course is to have some form of takasaki in one way or another. Hungary is probably going that direction. Even if you have in appearance of some populist element. I don't wanna sound too pessimistic. But the combination that goes under the name of fascism that was invented and i'm sorry to say by mussalini is exactly that direction because as some of the appearances of a socialist politics. Let's not forget that. Mussalini walls is socialist before in founded the fascist party so as some element and even the score not national socialism. Because there's some element of socialists. But in fact is bay match directed in terms of economic policy and interest by interest of the largest and this spring. We did at the center. A series of lectures. That are quite interesting about the wall that concentrated ownership in particular monopolies play in the rise of fascist movement including the rise of hitler in germany. Do definitely some effect there is. Is that if you are afraid. For your wealth. Having a repressive regime that guarantees the protection of your wealth at the end of the day does not look too bad. Remember that pinochet. And sheila came after alleanza was threatening the wealth of the chilean elite. So that was clearly a cause and effect kind of relationship. And it's interesting. I'm in the early stages of the third reich which is the best known book about hitler's rise to power. It makes a fascinating point. That hitler also started with an appeal to the workers. And a very social socialistic policy but as he started to get donations from big business in germany and often monopolies germany and started to realize that that was the way to fill the campaign coffers. The rhetoric became increasingly empty. That was the basis of his rise to power to my understanding of the use of lectures is not necessarily that the monopolist happy to get power but having in consolidating power as fast after he got it which is something we often forget. I don't think hitler wasn't selling evitable. Even if you get somebody like hitler in power if you have a strong democracy that should we act and block. He's attempt to consolidate power. And i think in the weimar republic this was not possible and in part is because power concentrated so the old megan idea of checks and balance and fragmented power both politically and economically. I think very powerful here and it is a former protection of democracy. I think that we should not forget. The american revolution or not only as a revolt against the british but also revolt against the british monopolies. The walls avai strong hate tower. The monopoly position dad producer in american history. It's interesting because both in that narrow lens of america and in the broader lens of this conversation around the globe. We've come back to that key. Ideal of checks and balances right. That's what makes us system work in. The end works when capitalism is a check on democracy and it works when democracy as a check on capitalism and it works when their broader forces keeping the worst tendencies of each and check and when those checks and balances start to get eaten away as when we start to have problems. Capital isn't as a podcast from the university of chicago stiegler center in collaboration with the chicago booth review also check out pro-market dot org publication of the stiegler center. Don't forget to subscribe and we've reviewed a capital into wherever you get your guests.

us rothbart murray rothbart roberts pierce ross brick bethany mclean jolyon phil unique john mass asaka absolute power co anadarko carlos slim Max weber andrea hardest florida legislature soviet union mexico berlin churchill fbi
Tim Sainsbury

Monocle 24: Meet the Writers

28:45 min | 3 months ago

Tim Sainsbury

"This is the writers. I'm georgina godwin. My guest today has been responsible for the development and strategy of one of the uk's largest supermarkets aside from an illustrious initial career in retail. He's perhaps best known for being a conservative party politician for over twenty years during which time he had spells as minister of state for trade and minister for industry and other art collector in his spare time his book among the supporting cast details his fascinating and varied life story. Tim sainsbury welcome to meet the writers. Good morning nice to hear from you and tim across. Your name is synonymous with one of the biggest supermarket chains in britain. Can you tell us how the business began way back in eighteen sixty nine my great grandparents both working instructing ground just victoria st and they met and fell in love and wanted to marry. Religion is identify. This really true. That my great. Grandmother's parents who will shopkeepers. They had several shops told my grandfather. You can't marry our daughter until you have a shop of your own. And so they go to shop and another legend is Since he's been told is when these they started producing several sons they had six sons He's old. I better have more shops. So each of them has got a shop of their own when they want to get married whether that was really the reason anyhow the business fatty earlier and it's time in about eighteen seventy four they started shop and of course you go into the whole birth of supermarkets. How the business model. Basically changed a retailers switching to self service. Tell us a little bit more about that. What it was a a remarkable time of course during the wall from thirty nine through really about nineteen fifty retailing was frozen was never new development. New ideas ready. And then the idea of self service supermarkets with imported from america and the fest buckets Started appearing in one thousand nine hundred fifty but it was very difficult in those days. Because if you want to do building you had to get a license Building materials very short supply so the start of supermarket. Retailing britain was snow and hesitant when i joined the company and fifty six. It was ready just talking to take off on any scale worst. Their any effort doubt that you would join the family fund Yes woes both in my mind. And i think in my father's mind and my grandfather's mind And indeed. I did discuss briefly with the provost of my college oxford what i would do if i didn't join the family business when i said i thought i wanted to become a lawyer. He said when that case to read. I think a good bit of advice. He said get something more relevant more white of wider interest in your life. And that's how. I came to read politics philosophy and economics which of course also prove useful became a politician. Exactly because your book is divided into three separate sections but they describe three separate careers really. Do you consider them as entirely separate chapters of your life. Well they are. I mean i said career which i as i describe it. As a miscellaneous lots of activities philanthropy was a major millette so they will see all the careers. And of course when i became a an mp. I was still in on executive director of sainsbury's on that carried on until i actually joined the compliment. I think it would be looked on other scans today. But in the nineteen seventies it seemed to be accepted even in the nineteen eighties. When was the private sector to michael hesseltine. Permanent secretary to pop department seem to be not too alarmed that his pbs was also known executive director of saints. And as you say of course that probably would not be allowed a tool you were. You were a conservative member of parliament for from nineteen seventy-three to ninety-seven you ministers state for trade from one thousand nine hundred ninety two. An minister for industry between ninety two ninety four. But you write in the book. You say unlike many of my parliamentary contemporaries at oxford. I took little or no interest in party politics. So how and why did that change view. Well i think he was really nineteen fifty-six because it was politics in the family since by father of two to three times as a liberal candidate and my mother was cut defended convicted active conservative. But that that was a petty cost. When i was but fairly quiet and dull period but nineteen fifty. Six year i left. Oxford was rather dramatic. We had the series of which of course was confronted with the realization of how its role in the world was changing and roll down the eating. Of course eventually but also the hungarian uprising and crushed by the the russians which made one very aware of the dangerous world. We live in and driving you to want to involve yourself much more. I started getting involved in an allegation. Cool the boo group which brought together largely cambridge graduates who had an interest in politics. And i found the more. I got involved the more i did. The more interested came. I won't say it was becoming more aware of the show that they will end. Central government plays in business and the effect can have on the success or otherwise of british from an industry. You have lived through some extraordinary changes. I mean not only in retail but also in parliament. Now you'll very strong on the fact that you feel that working conditions there are not acceptable. I'm well they have changed very dramatically. They said it went acceptable. When i arrived but they know have much more extensive premises. I actually outside the petty switzerland star. I think isn't acceptable. A crappy state of the palace of westminster nights many difficult decisions i think. Governments and parliament to be putting off confronting the need for massive modernization of the old paget's and that does need attention when they're having to work and in hot weather with no air conditioning. It's not exactly conducive to decisions. You also right that there's increasing social pressures particularly from the internet and that makes it increasingly difficult to attract men and women of the caliber that ministerial responsibility demands. Is that the case you think. Is it social media. Driven many factors in this. Of course it starts with not unique but relatively unusual position in britain that Executive i e the ministers the government is drawn from the legislature the members of parliament so when a prime minister is looking to fill quite a large number of ministerial posts. He's looking near the and todd at the number of members of parliament in his party at puts additional pressure on making sure that the people who are attracted into and retain retained in parliament Sufficient number of them are able and intrinsic incoming government ministers and. I think it's become ever more difficult. The media spotlight these days. Seems ever more intrusive and also you have to sort of twenty four seven news cycle. You can't switch off. You can't switch off your internet in way. You can't switch off your mobile phone you're always on coal as an mp. So it's very unrest restful life there's another factor of course which we've seen recently. There are very few seats which you can really call safe seat so you might get elected and then next election you lose. You'll see it's very unsettling life and so if you go as i did in nineteen seventy-three and said to my wife. I pretty my name forward to becoming an mp. She might reasonably say why. Full husband spouse is a good idea. It's not very well rewarded. It's a very unsettled knife. You might get addicted. Then lose your seat. What are you gonna do then. And of course the other problem fact that the member of parliament for hove is actually elected to represent who've westbound not westminster at. Hove so you end up reading needing to be located in two days. She's in london to go to parliament and in new your constituency. So that's another problem. As a minister of state for trade at one point and then industry. I mean those are huge remits and you must now be looking at. What's happening around the world. The both trade and industry with with horror. I wonder how we can recover here. Well a movement in replied to say how long have we got in degree. Got me onto this update to brexit trade. I in fact did trade policy for four years when i Michael hesseltine took over as flickr tape for trade and industry president of the trade. He split the responsibility of the minister for trade. Left me to look off to the trade policy and gave richard need him to drop of promoting british trade. So when i was minister of industry i was also doing trade policy and indeed ended up signing the treaty that created the world trade organization and i was also minister trade when we the single market came into existence and I was immediately aware of what an enormous benefit walls depreciate industry. I remember we talked about three million foams a year would be saved appreciate into three having the single market which removed all the non-tariff barriers to trade between britain and its european partners So it's rather depressing. The brexit is reinstating. There's three billion pieces of paper all those customs agents we are. I think at the moment becoming more aware of the consequences of what we've done. It's not as if the government don't have the benefit of your experience archives exist history exists your there to be consulted if necessary. Why is this act of insanity going ahead. Well i was. I knew the answer. I think i'd say my book that one of the problems is the remain knows the pro-europeans concerned particularly with the welfare of the economy and how effective the Trade and industry will be able to work and generate income and employment whereas the the bricks does seem to disregard that quite a large extent. The obsession with what they call. Sovereignty is what is moving a strong view on the it always strikes me as strange if we take the fishing issue which seems to be of very difficult. If you're a sovereign nation with you got the right to control fishing in your territory waters you could say. I'm not suggesting you would but you could say well. I think the economy would do better if we get hold on. But fishing waters as long as they let Banks and insurance companies financial services all the city trade freely in that country. You do a because you're sober nation. You could say we'll trade off access to fishing waters access to your financial economy. And that would actually case. Britain we generate more wealth under a great deal employment by doing that. Actually suggesting we graduates far as that. But i didn't understand why people saying we're not suffering we also free but because it's all written we can do all sorts of deals because we're offering nation we signed up to nato that commits us to go to war. With one of our neighbor fellow members of nato was attacked. We agree to come to the defense. Well that's quite sink. Commit yourself to do it. Because we are a sovereign nation. You quite publicly in two thousand and nineteen that you would vote liberal democrat at the general election. Do you consider yourself still tori. I do but it's a tenuous relationship at times. When in that election last year the candidate in by seat pow is sort has the best chance of defeating labor incumbent was dated april liberal democrat It didn't work out that way. But i saw him was the best way of getting a pro european and pro business member of parliament rather than appro- corbin member of parliament which we saw what we had the time. How do you think then. Because i know that you've you've been patient at the tory reform group. Can the party be reformed or is is the leadership beyond health it. It's quite a difficult. President wants because over. The lifetime of my interest in politics is frequently moments when we thought could have this. This is pretty right. Wing root who've taken over the party. I mean sacha with the amazing achievements set regarded very right wing by some in each time. The what i call the one nation view in the cart is come back on once more become the predominant view But at the moment. I must admit the one nation tories off any much in the minority both in parliament but abs- share in the membership at the party. I mean that is another big problem. The not enough people up prepared to give a bit of time to being members of a party a conservative party up because we don't have enough members in the party can get taken over by extremists. In we saw happens to you to some extent a top and tools to the conservative party to go go onto the third section of your book and that is art. You've long been an avid art collector. Was that always a passion of yours when he became for passing when i left oxford came to work in london and spent many saturday mornings wondering. Run the bet is gather is and looking at a rather because what you could afford Multan british painters young people recalled the new out center in sloane street. In those days things was quite lou. Rent to giving down. I picture for forty pounds or something like that and That interests estate with me and my wife enjoys with. We don't have a collection we buy paintings to hang on. And of course you'll philanthropy as as you mentioned you've done a huge amount so francis a little more about your your work with somerset house. We'll sums it. House was was full. Timing as i. Just as i was retiring member of parliament looking for a number of activities to stop the said korea. Michael hesseltine long lost able to persuade the government which owns some said talks to try and create data center for Some open to the public. That the lovely square. How his show. You knew and say many people in london no with a car park so revenue customs civil sevens eventually look us till seen by the public and the opportunity to change that and create that center of culture and the arts at somerset house was wonderful. Opportunity is taken that trust would be created to run somerset An i was offered the job of being chairman. I seventy jumped at it. And i'd like to think that fest five years we really going pretty well and of course You and your brothers put in around. Fifty million pounds in the national gallery for the saints brewing. That was a gain of a great experience. We had this site alongside the national guard. Would you been sitting there. It was bombed out in the in the wall. They'd been sitting there on the oldies. Yeah you'd be bought by government give to the national for extension. Having the site the government would never find enough money to build the extension. Then the idea was dreamt up. We'll maybe if we had a mixed use of the site and had a office blocked as well as it got real on the site that would provide the money to enable it to be developed and then that was a very unhappy experience because we ended up with a building say memorably described by prince of wales as a cop and say the project for the mixed use building was rejected. What are they gonna do in that. When the idea of the century brothers three of us could join to fund a new building. Which would be only for the use of the national gallery and provide justice base for the rates but the things like shop room temporary exhibition gallery and say we agreed that this was a movement to make rather than public charitable donation to the nation and it was a great experience and i think we ended up with red building which is very successful. The victorian museum of course plays a huge part in your life to. Yes i've I what. I'm still involved in the time of member of of the vienna foundation trustee of the foundation. But i was eight. Eight years trustee of the vienna and we have made some major donations to the day. It's not like any other museum as museum of museums because he has so many different departments covering almost everything. You think gov i sometimes but i've been the middle work area. Well this is part of the of the museum. I knew very well. But whether you specialize or most interested in textiles and dress ceramics architecture medieval period. It's old out in the so wonderful treasure trove and it's been transformed over the last twenty thirty years also with all the is being modernized and i think it's a very exciting experience and you're interested buildings to of course i mean. Tell us a little about hill house. Well over to win my was working. At sainsbury's i was dealing with ticks designed and took an interest in ever increasing interest in contemporary architecture. So as a family grew and we wanted to we had little culture just outside the windy but it was getting rather crowded when be had four children that are crowded we wanted to move to somewhere bigger and with everything and we saw. Well we have find. Will we be able to find a hog. So maybe even more exciting we could find a site and build a hugs and one day of a friend who was Stay trump said he had just seen a site which was the best one ever seen to build a new house. But we depressed at that movement because we mean looking for two years hadn't found the right place and He's off okay. We better gun able to get but did say without any great comforters We arrived at the baltimore all the rockies almost impossible track beating up the hill and said we walked up to track the talk. There was this small sort of broken down to up to cottage surrounded by even more broken on bombs and the amazing number of about fifty or sixty vehicles toz engines caravans with the back. I mean it's a junkyard and we turned around and looked at the view. Let me so. This is it. It is a wonderful sight to build a house and We meant it to persuade. Distinguish could take dentist. Who designed termites other things to come and design a hug for us which is what he did and even it two we live in. It's still and it's now coming up to fifty years old You could say some bit. Such shanghai's age Things keep on needing repair and We have extended it to extort away a couple of times but then is was designed to casey's indeed the library we built as a millennium project was. He's lost work and he saw competing for the equipped with the books in before he died. Which was good ten this as we keep saying. This is about three distinct careers. It's a business book. Come a political and cultural memoir kind. Has everything in it. And such great kind of behind the scenes look at at the revolution of one of the great retail dynasties of the world and with a with cut heritage. I mean obviously supermarkets have done very well over the last year but of course the high streets haven't what do you see the future of retail when it was interesting win. When's you book it's arrived. That was a mess. You've changed probably sixty years ago but the present situation is that the biggest change since in because of course before the supermarkets high streets were full of separate butcher shops. Green grizz will was was heading gaining materials. They because an you did a shop you went of. Oh six separate shops and they will make. Those shops have disappeared but they've been replaced with a eighteen coffee shops travel agents in nineteen sixties. The water wouldn't be enough to mom for shops in the high street was quite wrong was ever increasing because the new activities new way people spending money. I think it's more difficult now because the moment i can't see bricks and mortar retail premises being required as much as they have been in the past because of the growth of internet shopping and of course nowadays people want to go shopping in a car and they often which is not a good thing. So i think the big challenge to how we keep a town centers and cities inches vibrant And require more mixed use. I think boy. Entertainment functions perhaps more residential functions. Going on in town centres once totally dominated by retailing took. You've you've written this book at the age of eighty eight. What was behind. That started at about five years ago way back when before i retired as a name be when i was minister room but wanted to people saying you want to write a book about you had a very interesting. Lots of a parliamentary and government experience departments. You in the jobs you did roll interesting experiences a lot of trouble. But i didn't do anything about it for quite a long time partly because we call too busy doing other things and then of course you get the family saying oh you want to put that down. I never knew that. Why didn't you write something then. I started writing. An i gradually more time because i giving up although activities and i it sort of the project sort of took off and he ended up in what i think is a is a proper book with some quite interesting things in it for the rita. Of course it is which has agreed you put you with the title amongst the supporting cost. Which i think i well. In each of my roles you might water. You can be put onto the theater category or something like that. But i'm not quite sure. It's a lotta politics but it's not just political. It's not strictly speaking on autobiography. Just concentrate on the three careers older. Which i think have interesting aspect so i read it to the reader to decide and of course you're not the only osa and your family indeed. I a minor player when it comes to to writing in the family with a son in law and a granddaughter who published several books on sold in hundreds of thousands of courses deliciously ella and your your son in lorries The silk roads author peter. Frank pan professor. Peter bring them of g achieved. I know continuing to achieve. Is their family bestseller. Kind of Rivalry going on well. I think it's hard to get into the The category of the two with hundreds of thousands of copies sold. but it's. It's nice something we can all talk about between us calls. It would be nice when we all get together face to face more easily Uncertainty when i started writing the book. No idea that we would end up in such a difficult time but still one of the side benefits if there are any benefits. Found in. what's happened is that people have had both time to read books. And i think people are reading more books i have manga. Supporting caused might be a contribution to something of interest to some absolutely endorse that. I think everybody should buy it and read it. It's called as you say among the supporting cast it's published by bob break and it is by the right honorable. Tim sainsbury such a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much thank you. I enjoy dog discussion and hope that people will enjoyed it as well when they look. You've been listening to meet the writers to the production team nor whole and tally film court. You can download this show and previous episodes from our website or app from santa mixed cloud or i changed judging the godwin. Thank you for listening.

parliament britain Michael hesseltine Tim sainsbury georgina godwin millette michael hesseltine oxford Governments and parliament sainsbury tory reform group palace of westminster nato london national gallery for the saint Central government hove Hove