24 Burst results for "Shoshana"
"shoshana" Discussed on Future Hindsight
"It's only been seven days. But it feels like it's already been months. Although i'm not surprised by the storming. The capital by unpatriotic insurrectionists. I'm still stupefied by the slow motion reaction to the failure of capital police to secure the building. Arrest the rioters who are gleefully sharing images of themselves on social media and to object the president from office although some members of the cabinet and some white house staff have resigned which is really too little too late with just two weeks. Left in office. Events are still unfolding. I do hope that between efforts to impeach the president to invoke the twenty fifth amendment that he will not remain in office until inauguration day. Whatever happens though we do know that our future depends on redoubling our efforts and investments in civic engagement and to truly reimagine our social contract today releasing our favorite episode of twenty twenty an interview with shoshana zubov who exposed the sinister inner workings of big tech. Or a. She would call them. The surveillance capitalists understanding and surviving surveillance. Capitalism is critical to live in the twenty first century and to a healthy democracy. No one explains it better than. she does. In response to the insurrection at the capital. Here's what she said on twitter friends. Trump fulfilled his demented fantasy of murderous violence without consequence. This must not stand history demands criminal prosecution impeachment immediate removal facebook and twitter are profoundly culpable future at. Their mercy is intolerable. They must permanently end. Trump's access to the global info bloodstream. January twentieth is not enough. They don't have to love democracy. Just cravenly respond to new political winds. Now we reap the whirlwind of complacency surveillance capitalism debases individual sovereignty degrades society assaults democracy disturbed decade is the test demand rights laws institutions for democratic digital future. Let this be an unequivocal call to action. We thought our conversation was shoshana really captured. All the best parts of future hindsight and we weren't alone last week. The asian american podcasters association awarded us their golden crane award for best interview skills for this episode. We're so honored to have been included in their wonderful award show and beyond grateful to be chosen as winners fighting back against surveillance. Capitalism is critically important so without further. Ado i'm pleased to present to you the first but hopefully not the last award winning episode of future hindsight. I hope you'll enjoy listening to it as much as we did in producing it. A welcome to future hindsight. I'm your host miller. Each.
Facebook and Antitrust
"Beginning to look a lot. Like sherman. Senator john sherman. That is who in one thousand nine hundred ninety sponsored the antitrust law that bears his name one hundred thirty years ago he pronounced quote if we will not endure a king as a political power. We should not into her king over the production transportation and sale of any of the necessities of life on february. Eighteenth one thousand nine hundred to without any warning. The president ordered his justice department to file suit against one of the trust. In which j. p. morgan had major interest the northern securities company. Its goal was the monopolistic control of all of the railroads between the great lakes and the pacific ocean. Since then other powerful repressive kings have been dethroned from standard oil to eastman kodak to at and t. and t.'s. Dogwoods as good as gold. It was independent on our currency. It was gold. Now it's gone. That was one thousand nine hundred eighty four. This is now twenty years into the digital century. Big tech remains supreme. All but unchecked by law and regulation the so-called duopoly of google and facebook valued at just under two trillion dollars between them control thirty five percent of the six hundred billion dollar global advertising market. Not to mention evermore of our personal lives. This is harvard. Professor emeritus shoshana zubov in the documentary. The social dilemma. Facebook discover that they were able to affect real world behavior and emotions without ever triggering. The users awareness. They are completely clueless in the past. Ten days came a storm first week before last. Forty eight states and territories along with the federal trade commission filed suit against facebook that suit alleges that facebook bought up rivals with the explicit intention of stifling competition legal filings include an email from mark zuckerberg in two thousand eight in which he allegedly said quote. Better to buy than to compete. And then this past week. A second thunderclap. When texas's attorney general announced new antitrust charges against google the suit claims that google in a conspiracy with facebook abused its market power to chip away at consumer privacy protections and rig the advertising market. But if you think they trust busting senator. Sherman has come out from decades of hiding. That's not quite the case for decades. Antitrust doctrine has been fixated to the exclusion of everything else on harm to the consumer as measured by out of pocket costs social media mind control and the erosion of democracy do not fit into that calculation that sort of the traditional metric that we've used to bring antitrust cases and to really understand and measure consumer harm. It's been those price hikes that really hit consumers pockets Vossen author of the twenty two thousand nine paper. The antitrust case against facebook and illegal consultant in texas suit is on the leading edge of an evolved antitrust doctrine based on harms not necessarily inflicted at the cash register for example invasion of privacy on a grand scale. I just found it so interesting. You know why is it that the communications utility in the twenty first century that all consumers use essentially conduct something similar to surveillance. You sign up for facebook and facebook not only monitors your communications on facebook but even when i go to for example the new york times in the morning facebook is making a record of that and it is extracting from consumers the permission to basically track them across the internet. And it didn't seem obvious to that. Consumers would sign up for that proposition is something that they really liked. It's also a bit ironic. Because as i understand it. In the beginning. Facebook was favorably compared to. Let's say my space in early social network where your personal profile was at least one point. Public and facebook was theoretically an antidote to that. That's right if you go back in history you see how. Facebook entered the market with very firm. Privacy promises it got users to choose facebook over other competitors in the market and only after it gained market power and competitors exited the market. Was it finally able to extract this sort of surveillance term from consumers a large and you contract that facebook's growth goes up privacy protections straight down that's right and the fascinating thing about the new york attorney general's suit last week. Is that internal communications. Confirm that that's indeed. How facebook internally was considering strategic moves about decreasing users privacy. I don't remember another case that has been brought in a market where the price is zero and the government is deciding to defend the people based on things like a lack of innovation in the market. A lack of choice. Everybody uses facebook to stay in contact with their friends and family. And then just privacy harms.
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"We do number one we need a sea change in public opinion we need to wake up, we need to name what's going on. We need to grasp it. We need to understand it. They have allowed to develop in this direction for the last twenty years. As democracy has slept, they have been unimpeded by law unimpeded by regulation that has to change in the way that's going to change is a sea change in public awareness, the outrage, the sense of intolerability. This is not okay. As, we become aware of the public we're putting pressure on our democratic institutions. We need new law we need new regulatory regimes that up an outlaw, the key mechanisms of surveillance capitalism, including the very principles of taking human experience unilaterally, and translating into data including the very principles of do we want a dominant capitalism that trades in behavioral futures? Is that the way we want to make money in the twenty first century? So that's number one number two we need. New, forms of collective action. In the twentieth century, we had collective bargaining. We had the institution of the strike. We had people coming together to create power to balance capital. We need to do that. Now in the beyond the economic domain, we're just called users, but we're not just users we have political social and psychological vested interests in what's going on and the possibility of a free and democratic future. You know it's interesting users only used with drug addicts. Exactly. Exactly, air. Name for. An incredible meeting I think it was banned Jones was being in front of a group of Young African American kids in Church and I I wouldn't have said this but he did this. It was really amazing. He said how many of you download stuff from the Internet and they said Oh, what a stupid old man oh yeah. Of course, we do everybody does and then he says how many of you upload things to it And they were like what and he goes. You're all digital sharecroppers. It was an astonishing thing to say in front of you know what I mean but he was right they you were being used by the powers that be to till their land like you have. Now your land is now their land and and your information is now there is and it was really it was an eye opening moment for me and I was sort of like. And then the kids of course, got it like Oh if we're not part of the ownership of it, we are being you. It was really fascinating minute. What we are is the free source of raw material is holding. So got? Changing, Public Consciousness Outrage intolerability mustering democracy new law regulation intervening outlying. We've got new forms of collective action and a third critical piece is the opportunity for competitive solutions. We get the new companies, the right companies, the new leadership to create the new ecosystems alliances that really provide an alternative trajectory to a digital future. The kind of place that we wanted in the first place, the kind of place that is human that we can call home and that, and the tools are useful and the tools are for us not for them about us the knowledge is for us not about us. If, we get that new competitive solution. We've got those new competitors literally care have an opportunity to have every single human being on earth as their customer right because there is no one on earth who voluntarily wants to tangle with surveillance capitalism right? They have for closely alternatives they have hijacked the Internet they have hijacked the digital. They've hijacked our homes, our cars, and our bodies. This is not okay. This is not how it's supposed to be. It's not healthy capitalism. It's not healthy twenty-first-century society and it's deadly deadly recipe for human freedom and for democracy. and. My Arcane religion, you're speaking my religion but just end on this one of the things I did an interview with Mark Zuckerberg. One of the things put forward and I was hammering all the things. These kind of things saying exactly not as eloquently as you have but I was hammering and one of the things he said, well, you know what they're doing in China they're doing all the surveillance facial recognition this and that I'm like thinking you'd love to do. That Mark Zuckerberg but he was like he was putting out the term I it's either G. or me like it. If we don't, we aren't running the. Internet. If you constrain US US big companies, the Chinese Internet, we'll see where they do facial recognition but they do they allow social scores and things like that and I was thinking when he said I I don't like either choice. I, don't like you don't like China I don't like once again, we're back to Mr. because. I thought what was that statement? Does that statement has given up on democracy right and some people may think you know these folks surveillance capitalists think that we're can substitute computation for democracy computation for politics. That's what the Google city is substituting computation for politics. I believe in democracy I believe that the values of the enlightenment in the arc of human history these values were produced five minutes ago that humankind has. For Millennia in order to get to the ideas of human autonomy and individual sovereignty and democracy that the demos can regulate itself that we cannot let go of these ideas. Every generation has to step up to the responsibility to reclaim to fight to resuscitate to maintain the flourishing and the growth and the deeper rooting institutionalization of these ideas. We cannot let this go mark has already let it go. He's a cynic on democracy, but I'm not I don't think you are doing most of our listeners. Shana. This was fantastic. Thanks again to Sheshona Zubov for coming on Rico decode and thank you for listening. This concludes the run of the best of recode decode episodes as always you can follow me on.
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"Talking about go to HMA VPN DOT com slash deal. Or. Here it was Shana Zubov the author of the age of surveillance capitalism she's also a professor Morada at Harvard. Business. School has written lots of books about technology and economics, and we're just talking about this idea that they're sneaking around really pretty much they're sneaking around and we don't know what they're doing and we're agreeing to it tacitly by not doing anything or or being taken advantage of which way do you look at it because I think people do except you know I they accept especially because there's there enormous companies I was just talking to. Someone this week when Eero was bought by Amazon and I have here on my house I like it's a Mesh network my kids like it because it makes their whatever red dead redemption twenty-six work better and it was about by Amazon and I remember thinking Oh God got into my house. I didn't let any of them into my house now and I like this Meshwork were I had a ring thing in the front of my house and Amazon bought that and then Google's nest was in my house and I had to take it out and it just Girl going to get me don't. They. Interestingly, my kids unplug the NASA. Watching us. Okay. But it was but good products they're like cool dictate the they were products were before the Economic Logic Jack them right? Exactly like, Hey, it's great to be able to mitigate your temperature on APP great. What a great brought absolutely but then I realized the other day Oh they're watching my my temperature now I, don't know what you stat is, but there's some use to it. There's some fascinating. So what do we do because even like I literally am like they have me coming and going and I'm pretty aware of this stuff. Yeah absolutely I know they're sneaky bastards I got that I know about them I anyone if anyone's had the close up. View. With the worst part is I think when I talk to them is they don't think they are like I'm like are you lying or line to yourselves or it's a really weird they I don't know how this happened Era I. Don't know how we have all this date. I don't know how we misused it, and then you get sort of essential bullshit from people like Mark Zuckerberg was like what we WanNa do is bring you relevant act. And I'm like said nobody to anybody ever like I do not want those I do a maybe I do but not really not something I requested what we do. Well, part of what you're talking about here is you know the direction is the romance right weaving this romantic fantasy. Girl we're going to connect you were you know relevant ads and we're the new church right but look this is this is relevant ads but go ahead. This is big time. This economic history. Right. So this is big time flows of capital These are corporations, and I think there are a couple of things for our listeners. No one is that. There are some you know what the philosophers call category errors that have been foisted upon us. One is that this is how it works. You know. So everything that we're talking about here, this is just a consequence of digital technology sucks. You want the digital. This is what you get. That is absolutely dead wrong. They can turn it right dead wrong. We know that you know there were wonderful models and reports and projects early developments the smart home. Before surveillance capitalism became public when when Google appeared in two thousand and four, and we began to actually see this economic logic at work. And the whole idea was a simple closed loop. You got devices in the home. Those devices are producing useful information for the occupant of the home simple closed loop two notes the devices in the occupant. It's the occupant that gets the data. It's the occupant that decides. What means with whom to share and so on, and so forth you know you fast forward, you brought up the nest thermostat analyses of the nest thermostat. Now show that any vigilant consumer who's got one needs to review a minimum of one thousand privacy contracts. Because, nest is a hub for all the smart devices, each one siphons, your data to third parties and third parties and third partisan infinite regress. So this is an economic logic that has like a parasite. You know just glommed on right a digital media and hijacked it in a completely different direction. Now, what is this direction we're in the beginning of the twentieth century. And the things that I think is so important for us to think about is that. We're talking about when we talk about surveillance capitalism just as in industrial capitalism gave us the culture and the quality and the moral media of our industrial society and our industrial civilization. Right, now surveillance capitalism dominates and if we don't stop it, it's going to define the moral media and the culture and the nature of twenty for centuries A. and. Right. Now, what that looks like is an extremely unequal society where in an information society, we shift from really an emphasis on labor in the division of Labor is the key thing that organizes us to learning in a division of learning is the key thing that organizers us who gets to know stuff who decides who gets to know staff who decides who decides who gets to nose up. These are the dilemmas all goes to mark. Authority and power that define our twenty-first-century society right now, surveillance capitalists sit on a huge a symmetry of knowledge. They have an asymmetric of knowledge, a concentration of knowledge unlike anything ever seen in human history and with that knowledge comes as we talked about before the ability to actually shape and modify our behavior to tune hurt us toward their commercial outcomes. So this is now a new access of social inequality that's not only economic inequality, which is still critically important but also knowledge inequality an inequality of decision rights the inequality of our capacity to be autonomous self determining the inequality of human agency. So? We have an institutional disfiguring. Of now, these huge a symmetry of knowledge and power which are antithetical to democracy. You cannot have a well-functioning democracy with massive inequalities of knowledge in power. And so that's eroding democracy from the big institutional level. But now from the individual level from the inside out, the fact that our autonomy is compromised that these things are happening outside of our awareness that they can take, hold our behavior and shifted by it in ways that we make noisy. Eroding our moral autonomy, our ability to claim our future for our own agency for our own decisions for our own choices, our own promises of where I want to go and how I WANNA get there. So we're. So essentially we're we're stupid from the top and we have no choice and we're being spied on from the bottom excess and pushed around. So. These qualities super manipulate it was with. Tomomi and and individual sovereignty. These are the elements that are the constituent forces of democracy. You can't imagine a democratic society without imagining people who have these qualities right. So we're getting eroded from the inside and from the outside, and when we see something like Cambridge Analytica, which is you know has been a big half for a lot of people all over the world. What we see is this erosion in play the using exactly the methodologies of surveillance capitalism just slightly pivoting toward political outcomes. Instead of commercial outcomes using them to change our behavior and the only way they can do that is by by mustering these huge asymmetries of knowledge turning that into power to intervene on Austin, modify us and control and manipulate us and undermining our choice. What do we only have a few more minutes what we do? Regulation. What happened? So, we've got sort of three categories. Okay. We do number one we need a sea change in public opinion we need to wake up, we need to name what's going on. We need to grasp it. We need to understand.
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"Community you can search for everything democratization of knowledge. It's not that some of that isn't true. It's just that. It's misdirecting us to this piece of the iceberg when the whole other part of the iceberg is underwater on available on inspectable, I'll few skated intentionally hidden. And so You fast. Forward. Two Thousand Twelve, two, thousand, thirteen. The scholarly write ups about the facebook emotional contagion experimentalism. where the smart people data researchers from facebook and academics, they write about the outcomes of this research in which they discovered that they can use subliminal cues online. To manipulate offline behavior right. I online we can do something that changes you enough to actually change your behavior in the real world. This is a very big deal. So they in the scholarly right up, they brag about this. They say now we know that we can use the online medium to change behavior in the real world, and they boast very clearly very explicitly, and we can do this bypassing the individual's awareness. Exact is critical success factor to this right? Now pushing that red button. Thank you. Valence right capitalism we're listening to my February two thousand nineteen interview with Sean Zubov..
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"That want to know what we are going to do in the future and all of the economic imperatives. Now, the defined surveillance capitalism are aimed at how do we get better and better prediction products? How do we win the most lucrative prediction products so that not only are we predicting the future but really increasingly, our prediction products are equal to observation. Because ultimately, you know as you just mentioned Cara I, we go for scale we need a lot of data we do. Then we go for scope, we need all different kinds of data out from the online universe into the real world censor. We're going all the sensors, all the cameras, all the devices, all the Internet of things. then. We're going deep into personality emotions, facial recognition voice. But then finally we're going beyond scale and beyond scope to something I call action economies of action. How do we actually intervene in the state of play to shift modify tune heard your behavior toward are guaranteed outcomes are guaranteed. Commercial comes because the more we can do that the more powerful the which was. Advertising in sort of a spray and pray method in the old days like Oh this ad will make you wanNA use. Kodak but it was very young girl but without the digital right now they've got an unprecedented. In Human History Digital Architecture of intense detailed knowledge, which also means intense kind of power. What is this knowledge that has never existed before and what is the kind of power that accrues to them with that knowledge from all this ubiquitous architecture that allows them to to know so much about us what is the kind of power that accrues to that? That allows them to now use this architecture as a global means of behavioral modifications intially to two is used in some places that way? Yes. To tune heard and shape us with methods that are designed to be out of our awareness. That's exactly. It was just talking about that with someone that you don't understand it and you shouldn't have to understand. You don't understand why a car is unsafe. You don't need to be an engineer to understand that you should be protected in that way, and what they do is they force you to do i. was this thing this to Dorsey on the thing I'm like you make you you say we're sick, and then you forces to secure ourselves. When you created the illness, it's kind of it, which is fascinating. They're like, would absolutely I think one of the parts of it that I find really is the. The. Push away the power they have. They pretend they do not have this power, and then what I begin to realize recently over the last year or two is that they're incompetent to the task. They don't they don't have the skills necessary. The ethical underpinnings they don't have the knowledgeable about society. They don't have the emotional quote in to do it. They don't. The whole thing is so abstract that they can't even begin to get what's happening, sue The question we talk about how you came surveillance because surveillance is a very. Heavy. Word. Loaded heavily loaded reminds one of China surveillance watching spying things like that talk about how you coined this term. Okay. They think it's completely appropriate but we'll talk about that. I hear you. That's a really good question and it's Really, want our listeners to know that it's not hyperbolic Yeah, and it was very intentional because think about the term mass production capitalism which historians have used a lot or leader managerial capitalism which historians have used a lot. These adjectives that modify the capitalism. What they're doing is they're pointing to the pivotal piece that is the value creation, Hob, that critical success factor for value creation that defines this unique market form. So for mass production capitalism, it was the mass production system that was the source of value creation in contrast to say mercantile capitalism life for managerial capitalism was the whole professional managerial hierarchy, the administration, all of that the created the value, the drove the economies of this new capitalism. Made it so successful. So when you're saying surveillance, I someone I think is Roger McNamee said, the you know capitalism is like chicken. You can make it taste like anything like and as you add whatever the the special factor is, and in this case surveillance as well would happen in this discovery process was. They realized that there were behavioral data all over the place that had tremendous predictive value and it was more data than they needed to improve their products and services. So surplus data. So how how are we going to get the surplus data because people aren't giving it to us or if they give it to us by accident and they don't know we're taking it if we ask them for it, they're. Not. Going to give it to us because really any time every piece of research going back to the early two thousands anytime you you tell people about these practices of taking their experience, turning it into data, using it to predict, and so forth. Nobody wants any part of it. As you said, a moment ago, everybody wants security everybody wants to be protected from it. Nobody wants to be part of this. Things. Well, that's another story but they understood early on that, they're going to get these surplus data. They had to do it surreptitiously. They had to do it through what I call the social relations of the one way mirror to take without asking and early on you look at many of those early patents and you see the scientists actually defining in a very positive way we can get data that people did not intend to disclose. We can get data that people don't even know they disclosed because we can fit together different bits and pieces and make deductions and inferences. Therefore, we can come up with profiles and insights and patterns about individuals and groups, and so forth that people don't even know they're giving away and did not agree to give away right. So from the beginning for this thing to work to get that behavioral surplus. They had to do it secretly they had to do it backstage. They had to do it with mechanisms that were designed to keep us ignorant designed to bypass our awareness I call it a black box will actually better yet don't call it anything. No cost ranks. WH, what we're not doing anything what are you talking about? These or or. Give you this map and you turn it on. You will have an even better experience and I was like. All. Right. So what? Disturbed you know and I don't turn on any of the absolute saving functions one time I took a few weeks off. And got together all the manuals I could find that great magicians had ever written. To describe their craft and how they actually you know pull on these incredible tricks. And what I learned from that was that the key pivot for great magician is the idea of misdirection misdirection distraction rate. So boom over here you're over there you're is there on working over here and I then I going back to look it the the rhetoric in the practice of surveillance capitalist rate from the beginning. It's so clear that misdirection has been an essential piece of this So we're telling you we're giving you free services and we're connecting the world we're making.
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"Of surveillance capitalism the fight for a human future at the new frontier of power humid fight for human future like we saw that was funny thing happened talk about what happened and how how you sort of coined this term which again I love. Thank you. Well the way I tell the story. Surveillance capitalism lake mass production capitalism. was invented at a time and place you could say invented discovered cobbled together trial and error experiment. But the thing is it was a human thing and it was discovered invented elaborated at a moment of emergency in Silicon Valley with the bursting of the DOT COM bubble, a lot of pressure on all those young startups, all those fledgling companies. Google was right there. It had the best search engine and had some smartest people these brilliant founders, great values and alleged great. All I was there well publicly. Yes. He did creek now use I can't pine beyond that. First. Plane. Well you're you're the unit. Remember that I was like Oh, you're the report girl. Say when I saw that I point then they. Dear it's done. I. Hear You, I hear you. So. What happened was Even though. It was widely understood that they had the best search engine. even they were now tremendous financial pressure and even they're very swanky venture capitalists were threatening to withdraw support. And so long story short you know they went through a dark night of the soul. They had been very public about rejecting online advertising as a disfiguring force both in general on the Internet, and specifically for their search engine. By did like the purity of it at the beginning they really did they really did mean that and I do remember there's a story in fortune called chaos at Google I remember it was what they doing does with chaos and there and I remember thinking Oh dear now they're going to have to you know there was pressure you right Yeah. Yeah. So You know this kind of pressure really changes the situation for people. They're not the only ones who've experienced this kind of thing but you know then you gonNa make some tough choices. And essentially what they did was declared a state of exception. You know that state of exception as powerful powerful concept you get to suspend your principles you know in politics, you get to suspend the parliament, suspend the Congress suspend democracy in order to operate under emergency. So they declared a state of exception and at that point, there was already a situation where they knew that they had a lot of collateral behavioral data that was leftover from people's searching and browsing behavior. The data was set aside considered ways not adequately stored Organiz. Some people have been fooling around with it understood that it had a lot of predictive value. Under the state of exception, what they decided to do was to use these data logs quote data exhaust. For their predictive power combine those with their already frontier computational capabilities. Even in those days, they're calling it a I is a moving target has you know better than anyone in every era is a I but it keeps changing. So combine these unused data with with their computational capabilities. And use that to predict a piece of future behavior in this of future human behavior in this case where someone was likely to click. And whether we're going to do is now sell this to their advertisers coming out of the block box, a product computational product that predicts this little piece of human behavior where someone is GonNa. Click So those online advertising markets. Suddenly were transformed, not just advertisers figuring keywords and where to place their ads. Now, they're transformed into a different kind of market. These markets. If you just zoom out a tiny bit, what you see is that these markets are now trading in behavioral futures they're trading in these tiny products that predict future human behavior against specifically here click through behavior right. So now, we have a logic where. The surveillance capitalism is unilaterally claiming private human experience because, of course, the the folks who are searching and browsing didn't know that they were altitude these collateral data or data were being saved right which they were because they would put them up on the wall goal. They would have ever been there early days. They had the scrolling queries. That's right. And then you would watch them and they would. You could see that it was so valuable like it was like gold going they they spun it into gold really they spun it into chrome. That's exactly what they care and affect their stories about Larry Page actually worrying about that scrolling display in the lobby that it gave away too much of exactly how intimate and how insightful and how personal the this flows of data were. So the logic here becomes. Or unilaterally claiming this private human experience for a market dynamic. Now, we're taking it into the market. Once we take it into the market comes out the other side as behavioral data We combine that behavioral data with computation. And out of that, we produce these prediction products that tell us what you are likely to do now sooner than later right and as they add more data into like location or whatever you do it just it's it's beyond. I used to call it to them a database of human intention. You now have the database of human rules and you got it was fascinating. This is the database of the human future and what those online targeted. At marketplace's were the first. Precursors, really. Of what had become the dominant form of information capitalism in our time where we are trading futures in human behavior that has become how surveillance capitalism rose to dominance, how it makes its enormous revenues, how it has earned its market cap and become the largest most powerful companies on earth by convening these markets to business customers not to us..
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"Was alive. You know that you could. You could get information that had been silos away from government and you could contact people up in a hierarchy that would never paying attention to you. And you could create connection networking that whether it's medical whether it exactly and find like minded people or people with a similar almond or people trying to tackle similar problem, and so the promise of empowerment and democratization was real for a few years and the way I read that history. Was that you know there came a moment I write about it that a lot of it had to do with a financial emergency of the of the DOT com bust and so forth where that began to turn that's one surveillance capitalism was discovered invented stumbles don't bold into. Jeff Indigo happened at Google, Google was invented out of the bus. It was very that was the one who got the Google that we know. came out of the boss and it came out of the bus. Building on that vocab came out of the bust gangbusters. Because, it had discovered surveillance capitalism had discovered this economic logic and that's what saved it, and that's what and that's what spread from there. But so there was a window when our hopes and the promise of the digital media of new information civilization which reintegrated. Principles of the individual democratization so There was reality there but that window. Slowly. Closed it was closing even before we knew it we still were thinking that it was this one thing when it was already turning into something very different. You know the idea of it was that idea reach ability of. Star Trek in version of you know what I mean that we all had shared information freely and that it was easy to reach people that you could connect never forget going to aol with going to be the nineties six at earlier than that four, five, ninety four, and there was a bunch of quilters there had met online on America Online and they'd bill they had made a quilt altogether. It was such a metaphorical thing with a big AOL symbol for Steve Case and they wanted to meet him because he had a personality. With them online, they'd never met him. They never met each other but they had created this thing together and it was I remember thinking what a hopeful idea. It's the silly quilt. But at the same time, what a wonderful connect these people connected from all across the country and they're having cooked they cookies and they petted him and everything else and it was really a moment like this is a possibility. It was silly. But it was also very profound thinking because it was about cooperation and across borders and across geographies and across loneliness. Of things and it was fascinating and then no, and then you know what I mean. Something happens. All right. Well, we get back we're talking to. Exactly we're listening to my February two, thousand, nine, hundred, nine interview was Sean. Zubov, we're GONNA take a quick break. Now, we'll be back after this. have. You ever dealt with an identity crisis because right now everything from landmark birthdays to you know life changing global pandemics can leave.
"We'll take our first steps through the crumbling remains of Letchworth after this. The architecture of Letchworth village was meant to evoke Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. Built in nineteen eleven and feels New York, but two, thousand, three, hundred, sixty, two, acre Hudson Valley estate was a state institution for the segregation of the epileptic and feeble minded. A small stream known as Misiones Creek Bisects the property dividing it between homes for boys and girls ranging from children to teenagers. Letchworth. Village was presented as the Paragon of care and research in its time. It was entirely self-sufficient. Thanks to the large farm on the property. The young patients tend to the fields and animals on worked as serpents in their caregivers homes. Others were given vocational training in carpentry welding and shoe repair. It was its own ecosystem which also meant that secrets were easier to keep. The attendants were screaming again. So Shana pulled threadbare pillow head trying to drown them out. They did this every night drank themselves silly, and then yelled for hours. If. She was lucky. One of the superiors would come and break things up. She was rarely lucky. She peaked your head out from under the pillow to see if emily was doing. Okay. But the new girls bed was empty. No one was supposed to be out of bed. Bad things happen to the children who left their rooms at night. Shoshana didn't move. She prayed watching be entity pillow until her eyelids grew heavy waiting for emily to return. But by the time, her eyes closed the sheet still lay vacant in the dark. As always the children were roused before for chores. Shoshana was somehow relieved define emily's large is inches from her own she woke. Emily was holding a small cloth doll your hands Je Shana asked if it was from home, shook her head slowly. She said she had found it just sean a told you to put it back. Emily said our jaw firmly. To shot at tried to remind herself that emily didn't know yet. She didn't know everyone would try to take it from her how rare it was to have something to hold onto. Maybe, Shauna was being overly cautious. The doll wasn't much to look at anyways it was smeared with. Blood. One of its is had been torn off the clock had faded to a urine yellow maybe summit at thrown it away. Emily dragged the Dow behind her as she worked with Shoshana in the doctor's house, his family had everything. They weren't allowed to have soft sheets fluffy beds nice. Clothes. When she entered the building in the morning, she couldn't help feeling like emily's new doll broke in and out of place. At bed check to Shana watched as emily carefully hid the dollar under her bed. She made been new but even she knew the attendance stole everything. Shoshana. Rubbed at the fading bruises on her arms. Bruises, the same attendance had given her. It was inevitable that emily would get treated the same at some point. But just sean would protector as long as she could. China won't once again to Emily's big brown is the little girl was terribly dirty aside from the pristinely new dress she was wearing emily insisted that she had found it but just Shana narrowed her is she needed to know the truth she couldn't protect her if she didn't know who emily was stealing from. Emily hesitated. Shoshana. Pulled the dress off her and stood up using the extra three inches. She had over emily for extra intimidation. Emily signed and took Shawna's hand. She wouldn't tell Shauna. Could show her. The two girls snuck out of the dormitory avoiding the night attendance emily letter toward the woods for a small hand into Shawna's large one. The off-duty workers were so much louder out in the open where there are no walls to drown out the sounds. She could hear their argument in full now followed by the sound of a fist hitting skin. She knew that sound well and she hated it.
"shoshana" Discussed on Amanpour
"So let's take this big example of facebook. Let me ask you. You know Tim Shoshana says, it won't be fixed. twenty-first century. Law. So. So how will it be fixed but let me just put you this obviously facebook some three billion people use facebook instagram what's out, which are all owned by by facebook? MESSENGER at least once a month, obviously bigger than any religion is the principal source for so many people in. Bigger than the combined population of the US and China it's huge huge huge the power and. Mark Zuckerberg Zuckerberg has been sort of the boo-boy of a lot of criticism over facebook what many people including Congress, and all sorts of other investigation says something of a malign influence in many many. DOMAINS HE PUSHES BACK You know do what is your? What would be your solution to rain in not just the surveillance capital of a facebook, but the complete and total dominance. Well let's ask ourselves why they're engaging in surveillance capitalism and applying. Technologies and so on to using artificial intelligence technologies and the answer sadly is to be more effective at selling ads and one of the monopolies that most strongly concerns me is the joint up Alie Google and facebook have over the advertising technology and advertising marketplace. This is immediately directly and seriously damaging our intellectual landscape because of the many supported publications that are going out of business. Because Google, and facebook have figured out how to be so effective at a accumulating data and using it to sell ads that you know if you have a really interesting site is directed at some particular interest. You're you're probably not going to be able to pay the rent by selling this terribly damaging and it needs to be fixed and on this particular case I agree with your Shana. Breaking them up isn't enough we need some radical reforms of advertising technology I don't get all Geeky here but there are things called cookies and third parties and so on, and they're being egregiously horribly abused at the moment in a way that's very destructive to our society and yes, once I still think we should break the company's up but but once we've done that we need to get in there and in particular do radical reforms of the advertising marketplace. So just to drill down a little bit more obviously facebook is is very concerning because of its power and what other investigations have said, the power to disrupt elections inspire is sort of sometimes deadly hate campaigns and places whether it's. Me and Ma India the like and by the way, as you know better than I, do facebook and Google pouring billions right now today into India where they think they'll have another you know several hundred million consumers but here's what was written..
"shoshana" Discussed on Amanpour
"Welcome. To the program everyone I'm Christiane Amanpour. Working from home in London the explosive growth of the tech industry is a great American Success Story Apple Amazon. Google create hundreds of thousands of jobs and rake in trillions of dollars around the world. But today for the first time Tech Titans are zooming together with Congress, which is asking is big tech just too big David cicilline chair of the House antitrust subcommittee laid out his concerns about their overwhelming power. Their ability to dictate terms call the shots up end entire sectors and inspire fear represent the powers of private government. Our founders would not bow before king nor should we bow before the emperor's of the on Lan Konami For their the four CEO's soon up your shy of Google Jeff Bezos of. Tim Cook of Apple and Mark Zuckerberg of facebook argue their platforms in Hans Competition driving innovation while also helping small businesses grow. There hasn't been an industry reckoning like this. Since big tobacco bosses will hold on the carpet back in nine, hundred, ninety, four, and today's blockbuster hearing could mark the end of unregulated growth for the Tech Sector Shoshana Zubov one of the first tenured women professors at Harvard. University. Harvard. Business School is the author and scholar who predicted decades to go the enormous impact. The computers would have on our lives. Her latest book is the age of surveillance capitalism and Tim. Bray is a leading software developer who recently resigned a senior post Amazon over what he calls a variant of toxicity running through that company culture. Welcome both of you to the program. So. Tim since you. Have just resigned from Amazon. Let me ask you first but I want both of you to reflect on what you've heard so far during the hearings whether this is the reckoning that it's intended, Tim I you? Have to say I'm glad they're happening and the opening statements by the ranking Congress people on the committee were mature, grown-up serious I thought and very pleasing I. It seems like they're taking an adult and considered approach to this..
"shoshana" Discussed on Future Hindsight
"Change makers who sparked civic engagement in our society. Our guest today is Shoshana Zubov. She's the Charles Edward Wilson Professor Emeritus? Business School and a former faculty associate at Berkman Klein Center for Internet and society at Harvard Law School. This episode concluded our season on post truth. We've learned so much about how truth decay endangers our language. Our national security and.
"shoshana" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"Publishers of Shoshana's above the age of surveillance capitalism about big tech's impact on the future now in paperback where books are sold on the plane there show talk doesn't just mean talking it also means listening it's a challenge to allow different points of view to be heard and still keep the strong grip on the truth we do our research if we hear lies masquerading as opinion we have to call that out the regular show weekdays ten AM to noon on ninety three point nine FM and AM may twenty W. NYC it's morning edition from NPR news I'm Rachel Martin and I'm Steve Inskeep Los Angeles county has reopened its speeches this move affects beaches along seventy five miles or so of coastline although department of public health director Barbara for rare has also kept some limits in effect groups sports and activities like picnicking and sunbathing are not allowed at this time and the parking lots bike past piers and boardwalks remain close chairs umbrellas and coolers are also not allowed Los Angeles county is also taking some other steps like relaxing some controls on retailers and manufacturers although abroad stay at home order remains in effect the city's affected include Manhattan Beach California where the mayor is Richard Montgomery is on the line mayor walk to the program thank you Steve how's the beach yesterday view the full beautiful we have almost two miles of coastline here and in the last six weeks has been that went on it to stop the lifeguard drives a lonely truck back and forth but imagine that water being clear no one around to bother us and now today we see servers up for the first time legally people walk on the beach and enjoyed it both young and old most of them have their face coverings on that beautiful day here in southern California I believe that the order was lifted at six o'clock in the morning did you go out early I was actually there at six thirty for round one and after one o'clock to see how bad the crowds would be or thanks to the crowds show up and luckily there was no big crowd showing up here on the middle the week of the week of may be different about the only people there that we saw in conjunction with the lifeguards and our police department that was back and forth were less than three hundred people over the course of two miles so not not at all I guess so you found it to be a proper see now why would it be that the beaches would be a kind of first step for southern California for California generally which is been locked down so intensively I think it's two things Steve it's one of our culture for the California here the beaches where people go to not just recreation let's just take a piece of mind off no we've been locked down for six weeks so not be able to go anywhere and parks were part of that lockdown no parks open but beaches it's part of what make up is and people want to go relax and clear their minds they walk for miles on the beach instantly people as a residential start to smile again but the fact that you went out looking for crowds does point to the danger here I suppose Orange County California also in southern California opened its speeches last month if I'm not mistaken and then the governor had to shut them down again because thousands of people packed the beaches why do you think your beach will end up different the difference here is they were impacted by everyone go on those beaches here with twenty miles of coastline open we won't be impacted like Orange County once was so spread out they can pick any beach resume to the north lami to the south had beach in the middle they want to the influx of people of the crowds the governors and I hope the permanence are worried about what other economic activities or social activities for that matter are now allowed and taking place in Manhattan Beach under these changes to the.
"shoshana" Discussed on KLBJ 590AM
"Shoshana regretfully will not be able to pass more funding for Americans paychecks however since this is so urgent of us of the centimeter down tomorrow in a new session that was not previously scheduled and the democratic leader has agreed to my request calling for a fast time to get this done for the country it is absolutely past time to get it done and why is it getting done because Democrats like Pelosi do not have their feet held to the fire over this by the media Democrats don't have to worry about getting pummeled in the national press for standing in the way they don't have they don't have to worry about that and that is what they're doing that is what they're currently doing it's it's really remarkable it's really remarkable to see how much dishonesty there is around all of this I mean here we all right we got update on this hold on it's a little more Schumer says deal reached on aid for businesses hopes for a Senate vote today okay and Braves will deal passes today Democrat told CNN he's a few ice to dot tease to cross okay well here's what it says in the Butterfield said it would include three hundred ten billion for small business a top priority for publicans the PPP the program will program now includes small banks credit unions and nonprofits topper if Democrats for pre existing relationships with the banks the large banks of ten okay here ago Barfield said the health care we get a hundred billion dollars split between seventy five million for hospitals seven I've been putting some for rural ones and twenty five billion dollars for casting another fifty billion dollars would go to the small business administration's economic injury disaster loan program my friends we are spending I mean look I know that we need this for businesses because we've set this up but we also have to remember we are spending money here at a rate that is just mind blowing we're spending a hundred billion like the governor used to spend a billion I mean we're just we're just you know here you go a hundred billion for this a hundred billion for that in a ten billion here fifty billion there fifty a hundred billion dollars a lot of money into the government that's a lot of money but being a member of million dollars for a wall when the economy was Bowman couldn't get that was that was way too much money even our spending hundreds of dollars a billion dollars hopefully this will work better for the PPP than it has I mean that's far it has been it's been really disappointing as a program I mean we we need to be honest about that would you be honest in our assessment about how all this is going so although a year's a Kim Jong moon is in bad shape talk about a a story that we got a lot more attention if the world wasn't a meltdown let's let's dig into that for a sec about CBD right well Hey these really difficult times there news reports out there about.
What Else Did Shel Silverstein Write?
"Decades ago in the evenings around closing time a man with a very bald head and a very dark beard used to come sloping into the mysterious bookshop in New York City. His shoulders hunched is the warding off a perpetual cold wind. The proprietor auto pens ler had come to expect these visits indeed. He looked forward to them. He would close up the shop and guide the man back to his. Inner Sanctum. A book lined study with floor-to-ceiling shelves there the bearded man would deliver a Sheaf of papers containing a new freshly penned mystery story to be added to the theology. That Pencil publishing the writer refused to take any money for his efforts. Even though pens lawyer was paying well. He craved compensation. His eyes gleamed as pennsly- slid his payment across the desk between them. It was a stack of used books containing dozens of stories written in the mystery genre later that night he would devour them one by one but first pens lawyer and the bearded man would talk and talk. They talked about books about life. Auto pens layer was just recovering from a devastating break-up and so they spoke about battling in a recent phone interview for this article. Pennsly- remembered that at a certain juncture. His guests said something so piercingly insightful and eloquent about the break up that it took his breath away Henseler said I wish I could remember what he said but I failed to write it down what I do remember. Is that when I expressed my amazement at his facility with words he just shrugged and said I guess that's why they call me a poet. He could've added among many other things because our bald and bearded man was Shel Silverstein a true renaissance man. Of course many of us know him as the author and illustrator of the giving tree a light in the attic and where the sidewalk ends among many of the other wildly successful books that he wrote Andrew for children. That's only the tip of the proverbial Iceberg Silverstein also drew cartoons and wrote plays for adults and penned numerous songs especially country songs. In fact he won. Two grammys for song. Writing one of them for the Johnny Cash. Hit A boy named Sue Sheldon Allen. Shel Silverstein was born into a Jewish family in Chicago in nineteen thirty his father and a bakery which only began to thrive in the wake of the Great Depression. After high school. Shell spent some time studying at the Art Institute of Chicago and later Roosevelt University but was drafted into the US army serving in Korea and Japan. Silverstein began working for the military periodical. Stars and Stripes and it was there that he began regularly publishing his idiosyncratic cartoons after his military service Silverstein got a job as a cartoonist. For the fledgling magazine. Playboy for his playboy gig. He traveled the world sending cartoon dispatches from Bahrein wide in nineteen sixty three Silverstein. Met Book Editor Ursula Nordstrom. Who prodded him into writing books for Children? And that same year he wrote the giving tree a book about the nature of Altruism and selfishness there would become his most famous and popular work his sense of the absurd and the whimsical cartoon line drawings that illustrated this and all of his books would become his hallmarks in deceptively simple language. His exploration of the innocence and imagination of childhood made him one of the most celebrated and widely read authors for generations of children and adults like Auto Penn's lair recall Silverstein telling him that he spent a year living at the playboy mansion as a guest of Hugh Hefner. It was there that he met Susan Hastings with whom he had daughter named Shoshana in nineteen seventy tragically. Susan died in nineteen seventy five and two. Shana passed away. Unexpectedly after cerebral aneurysm. In one thousand nine hundred two by many accounts her death utterly devastated Silverstein in Nineteen eighty-four. He had a son named Matthew with Sarah Spencer. According to Pens Ler Silverstein was a deeply eccentric. Man Pennzoil told us for instance. It wasn't unusual for him to be having dinner in a restaurant with a group of friends and then suddenly announced that he was done. Get up take a taxi to the airport and flight of Chicago or Los Angeles or Florida or wherever he felt like going on the spur of the moment shel. Silverstein died of a heart attack in nineteen ninety nine at the age of just sixty eight but in story song and image. He left behind a remarkably prolific artistic record.
"shoshana" Discussed on Outcomes Rocket
"Hundred thirty million in that as of early this year. FACEBOOK two point one nine billion monthly active users. So I think leveraging if we're thinking about culture change leveraging the world although of social media love that what's one area of focus that should drive everything in an organization. Well I think I can tell you what we're focused on. We we want all care. Healthcare or otherwise to be aligned with people's goals and values of how they live their lives and our end goal as a nonprofit is actually go out of business business or to shut our doors because we're no longer needed eight. That's the that's the end goal love nets. So what would you say. Your favorite book is Shana several but the one I would recommend is being mortal. If you haven't already read at by Dr Atocha one day. Love that folks check out all the resources provided by Shoshana here the the syllabus that we just put together go to outcomes rocket dot health slash en dwell. And you're gonNA find all that there as well as a transcript of our discussion discussion today just Shannon before we conclude I love if you could just share a closing thought with the listeners and in the best place they could follow or get in touch with you. Sure I you know. I like to challenge listeners. Out there to think about reframing our conversations in healthcare so what if the entire healthcare system was geared toward asking patients. One question and that question is what are your goals and values of how you want to live your life and then tailoring all care based on the answers to that question. And whether it's about treating high blood pressure diabetes or talking about serious illness none of life. I think this is a way to shift after thinking and move forward and you can thank you. You can reach me at SHOSHANA UNGER LIGHTER DOT COM. Or if you can't spell that which I know it's hard on twitter at Shoshu. MD I'm on linked data on facebook. Instagram haven't yet figured out snapchat. But I'm available. I I love it listeners. They have it sure. Shannon has provided several ways several channels to get in touch with her and her work. Take action do your part to make this end of life life process better for your patience for your loved ones and I think in this interview we provided multiple ways for you to take action so there. It Be Shoshana documentaries the upcoming documentary or just checking out her conference do something about it. It's it's definitely a great opportunity. Tony for all of us to tackle SOCIA- just want to say a big. Thank you to you for sharing your mind your heart with us and we're really excited to keep up with your work. Thank you you sound like. It was great to chat with you. Hey.
"shoshana" Discussed on The Adam Buxton Podcast
"Gentleman did was draw the data from the host surveillance capitalism data draw the techniques methods and mechanisms from the host this behavioral surplus so Cambridge Analytica simply repurpose this whole shadow operation pivoted it a couple of degrees to achieve political outcomes and influence rather than commercial dot com yeah so it was successful initially for Ted Cruz campaign and then when trump won the republican nomination for trump and supposedly it was a part of the brexit campaign as well and of course the real pity here and what I wish oh and would take his fine mind and get into more deep play is that we don't even know yet the full extent of what it did what it did or did not accomplish and that's really Ely were the frontier is right now of how we demand that our government's demand from facebook and whatever other companies might be implicated so that we are able to do the forensic analyses to truly understand what did or did not occur and what was or was not accomplished the strange thing is that this is all happening in a world that initially started out to be very optimistic dawn of the net age when people were filling that at last they would be empowered and that they would be actualized individuals who were able to take control will over companies and be independent of the wishes of those companies in a way that they never had been before and they would be able to interact with each other fall more transparent and honest way and a direct way and then people came happen something half anything happened on the way to the farm yeah but even though people are much more cynical about that overall I would say I don't think that many people believe that the Internet is now this unregulated evidently it's not but still there is a sense that hung over from the whole thing that overall it is a positive placed interact with your fellow humans even to the extent I was watching a film the other day called late night comedy with Ms I saw a bunch of that on the flight over town send Mindy Jalen and she Emma Thompson then is this British talk show host in the states kind apogee grouchy the implication is that she's lost her age she was hailing is this writer who comes along and she ends up being the first female on her writing staff and she kind of is a breath of fresh air and all sorts of ways but heart of what mindy tailings character says to Emma Thompson is that you don't interact online this no viral clips there's no interaction on social media and that makes people think that you're being superior that you're above them so that I feel is the mindset and as as a comedian as a performer whatever I'm occasionally ost by people to tweet things to tell people about shows I'm doing or whatever and if I express any reluctance whatsoever or just say that I call me bothered then it's like well what are you doing you'll self-sabotaging that's the modern world that's how we you know what are you above it all it's a strange position now to be and when you're talking about the colonization of your interior private space in your mind there is now that mindset that strange mindset that I think makes people feel as if opt out is somehow antisocial that actually it's great for the surveillance capitalists because there is this feeling I think that pervades more and more that you should be part of all this you should be engaging online and what's your problem if you're not it's a sort of weird position that you're I mean even you know the author you want people to buy your book you're on twitter you have to engage to that degree don't you but you're not in the book you're not advocating total Gagen you're not saying that the technology itself is the problem it's just the way that it's used what I'm saying is that they have sold us a bill of goods on that bill of goods is that the way that they operate and the way they extract freely from our experience and Turner our experience into behavioral predictions and Amass these unprecedented concentrations of knowledge about US and the power that goes with that knowledge to increasingly affect our behavior and even control our behavior and when I say these words today so is somebody going to think I'm paranoid or some you know like out there extremists but honestly folks I've been studying this so deeply for so many years and these are reluctant conclusions that I come to and they are not melodramatic the thing is they have tried to make us believe that these are inevitable consequences of digital technology and that's where I really angry because I believe that the digital does have tremendous democratizing and powering capabilities and that as twenty-first-century citizens we as individuals and our societies overall all we need and we deserve this capabilities we need so called big data to solve the climate crisis to cure z's to educate every person on earth to make sure no one goes hungry to eliminate plastics in the ocean and the Arctic snow I mean there are so many urgent things for which we need these technologies on a global scale to radically improve our lives and our future possibilities but also just on a personal level we should be able to learn what we WANNA learn and.
"shoshana" Discussed on The Adam Buxton Podcast
"One more gye mud cost band now you have that cost out and started listening I took my microphone and bounce up human then nye recalled it all the noises while hey how you doing podcasts Adam Buxton hit thanks very much indeed for joining me for podcast number one hundred six house things nomo right it's a bit dreary out here today in the north the countryside we've had a lot of rain this week mud everywhere the skies are overcast sean little bit Johnny Vid Blowy as you can probably hear but oh no the clocks going back this weekend don't they twenty-seventh October so we're going to be plunged into even gloomy gloom sorry I don't mean to the podcast on a negative note but is always a bit of a sad time when you lose a whole extra hour of daylight but hey Christmas is the reward at the end of this often stressful period Christmas podcast with Colin Bowles doodle story anyway I don't need to tell you all about that now what I need to tell you about is my conversation with the American author and Academic Shoshana Zubov Shoshana a professor emeritus at the Harvard Business School had to look up what professor emeritus means hit me is a retired professor is the author of the age of surveillance capitalism the fight for a human future at the new frontier of power it's a big book about big things about how the big tech companies particularly but not exclusively Google and facebook are using increasingly sophisticated edge to watch how we behave online and about how they use that data not only to sell us things more efficiently which sometimes can be quite convenient but also about how they can use that data to make predictions about how we might behave and even the kind of opinions we might have have this predictive data is in some instances then traded to other companies and organizations seeking to gain a financial or political advantage by knowing how customers or voters might behave well so what you might think that's just a clever modern way of getting oh your customer but apart from the fact that this data gathering and profiling is usually conducted in a sneaky and underhanded way what the Cambridge analytica scandal demonstrated for example is that the data can then be used to do all sorts of things which we definitely didn't sign up for aw for example influencing elections now you may feel that you'll plate of doom is already full and you don't have room for one more thing to worry about and I heartily sympathize I personally find it hard to get worked up about things like targeted advertising especially when it's often quite crime up for example I bought some Maracas the other day online because I'm reforming the best band in the world quite soon with my pals and now after I bought them rackers every time I open a browser window there's an ad for the exact same pair of miraculous if I'm going to think Oh really yes I need some Moammar acas because then I can have Morocco's all over the house in case it's certainly very important to do this it is important don't get me wrong but does anyone need more than one pair of Maracas other than I didn't have beds but the thing is that Shit's attempt to sell me more miraculous has profound and disturbing implications for the kind of law lives that we will end up living in the future if companies are allowed to carry on doing whatever they want with the information trails that we of online however I hope if you listen to my conversation with Shoshana which was recorded earlier this year two thousand nineteen in the offices of her UK publishes in London I hope the message you'll take away is not oh great there's another way that we're all fucked but instead he the thing that it's important for us all to be aware of and it's a conversation that should spread as wide as possible throughout society so that this isn't corporations using this technology feel obliged to do so more responsibly that's the idea in my mind anyway now Shauna is used to being interviewed by people who are and let's be positive about this even more intelligent and articulate than I am so I began by explaining a little bit about this podcast and what she could expect also as you will hear we were interrupted at one point eight by someone bringing Shawna Chicken Salad apparently she hadn't eaten for about three days as she was giving a round of interviews before flying back to the US and I was very grateful that she agreed to be on the podcast so I let her salad which I think was nice but that is I don't know what the salad like he looked fine back at the end for little more solo awful but right now here we go coke who Kim aw uh are so semi a little bit yes your podcast so the audio I deserve I mean my background is comedy and the podcast ost sometimes it's with comedians other times it's with writers sometimes they're quite funny sometimes they're more serious you know I talked to you my father who's the director reprieve who represent people on death row and in Guantanamo and lobby for human rights the world so that's quite a serious one I'll say but then I'll talk to Charlie Brooker who does Black Mirror two black mirror of course yeah okay so Charlie's good fusion of serious and stupid his main impulses just to be silly about things but there's quite a serious and gently underlying yeah set concerns so there you go that's too much information or you're not fascinated I'm probably not the funniest person in the world which is just because I've always been that I mean even as a little girl I was very serious but that doesn't mean I'm not game I'm game for any thanks very WanNa go all right I'm really interested in how you caught onto the bulk and well Chris got it yes I have read in its entirety and listened to the Audio Book Do you know the Audio Book Are you happy with it I actually have not been able to bring myself to listen to it I was really upset you didn't ask me to record it actually really yes why didn't they give you the option I don't know I don't know that would have been great have you got any annoying vocal six not that I'm aware you'll have to tell me run we're dying yeah have you spoken to sit of students as young adults about the book yes I'm what sort of response you get from them well it's interesting because so often we hear Oh you know the young people millennials kids today they've grown up with this they don't care about it and so on and so forth I find that to be not true at all first of all just from a point of view of data look at the surveys see that you know people especially I'd say between sixteen or Seventeen and twenty five to thirty very concerned about what's going on very switched onto it you're the ones who are spending so much time thinking about how do we hide from this you know how do we camouflage ourselves how do we disguise salves yes my son was told me about VPN's VPN's so these are forms of resistance that are very individual. is D- You know where each one of us ends up searching for these modes and methods of hiding in our own lives what is the PPM for people that don't know it's just private voice protocol so that you're on a line where ostensibly there's no access there are some all of them that will scramble your location on a random basis so can't tell what part of the world you're in and then there are other programs can get that well constantly block trackers and some that will create rent Adam patterns in your browsing so that you throw off the predictive analysis because there's no obvious pattern in your browser have you ever looked into the so-called incognito window on Google chrome are you familiar with that I am familiar with it and don't quote me on this but quite recently and I haven't had time to look into it in the depth that I normally do to say something in public but quite recently there's in a whole bunch of new forensic expose of incognito on chrome and the idea that in cognition so is not incognito and crumbs and factor privacy leaking not a privacy protecting tool so you know people have to be real careful and got to read and you know but the bottom line for me all of this atom is that I resent this kind of thing very much yes and my view is that twenty-first-century citizens of any age should not be required to hide in their own lives that this is in fact intolerable and the right that we spend so much time thinking about how to camouflage ourselves is one of the early warning signs of great iniquity of great injustice in the kind of society that we are allowing to be built around us we should have freedom in our lives we should neither have to hide from the forces of the market nor should we have to hide from the forces of the state and the fact that so much our young people's mental real estate let alone the creativity and artistry of our most Avant Garde painters and poets and filmmakers are going into these themes of how do we hide young people are writing their drool theses about you know how to scramble your identity and camouflage yourself and the artistic vanguard is preoccupied with this this is robbing us as humanity of what the real creativity should be about should be about how we expand and how we explore and how we adventure not how we hide so I find this to be very disturbing sign that things are not okay speaking of unwanted invasion hang on one second we'll just pause lunchtime what have you got eighteen head absolutely nice did you like some I'm more actually thank you I didn't eat dinner last night and I didn't eat lunch yesterday yeah I didn't eat breakfast today come on not looking after yourself Shawn problem your priorities in your commitments Komo eight where do you live in the state I live in Maine Oh beautiful and is that where your house was that go immolate it immolated unbelievable so in the book you tell the story and it's a way of use drawing an analogy between where we're at now with the advance of surveillance capitalism and you talk about an incident when your house is struck by lightning yes and and a fire started smoke was coming through the house you felt as if you had probably a few minutes just to close a few doors to stop the fire reading take out a few of your most valued possessions onto the landing photo albums you grabbed but within minutes Fire Marshal was in grabbing you by the shoulder and say you gotta get out now and a couple of minutes later you're watching your house burn to the explode explode why did it explode the lightning went to a wall and travel down and it found the oil tank right it was in a machine room in the lower level of the House that precipitated an explosion on everything went from their worst case scenario lightening strike lightening strike right into our kitchen wow did the insurance cover that the insurance was.
The Age of Surveillance Capitalism
"What surveillance capitalists are competing on our the quality of their predictions. Yeah. Because that's what they're selling to their business customers it began with a Connie's of scale. We need a lot of data. We need to feed the machines. A lot of data in order to get really good predictions. Okay. So we're getting a lot of data over were pulling all the data that we can find an online in the online world, then it becomes wait. Wait a minute. Volume is essential. But we need more than volume. We also need variety we need scale, and we need scope and to get that scope to get that variety. The diversity of data. We need to get out of the online world we need to also embrace the offline world, we need a mobile situation. Here's your phone put in your pocket right now off you off you go into the city into the park into your home into your car wherever you are those become new sources of of supply chains for us. Okay. Now, we're competing in the mobile world and the discovery occurs. Hold on a second. You know, data. Scientists talk about the shift from monitoring and capturing data to actually aiding actually effecting the device or the person in a way that actuates behavior and through. Actuated behavior, you set that behavior on a specific course that gives you even better basis for prediction. Right. So so you see this is the input. This is what's happening behind the veil before you get to that killer recommendation wherever it is. So behind the veil what's happening is we're looking for ways to actually nudge, tune heard human behavior through these subliminal cues that operate in the online and increasingly in the real world. So that we can channel behavior toward a certain direction. And once we know you're you're moving in that direction. Then the predictions that we can make are going to be even more powerful one of the tests of this that became preps. Most interesting, and we'll be familiar to our listeners is the augmented reality game, Pokemon. Go. Oh, which I consider to be another super scale population scale, experimental laboratory in how you do what I've just described. But now not in the online world in the real world in the world. We call real. Because what Pokemon go what was actually doing was monetize ING based on its own behavioral futures markets where people would go, exactly. So there were you know, pizza joints restaurants. Mcdonald's franchises all kinds of services stablishment retail places that were paying Niantic labs, which was the Google spinoff. Yeah. That produced an incubated Pokemon go while still inside Google, led of course, by John Hanky who is behind street view and behind that but before that Google earth. So they're paying my Antic labs for footfall footfall in the real world is the precise analogy to click through in the online world, grocery literally foot, traffic and fall is your body is in my store and your foot is falling on my floor talk.
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"Com. Bubble a lot of pressure on all those young startups. All those fledgling companies Google was right there. It had the best search engine and had some smartest people. These brilliant founders. There's great values and allegedly. Great bell us. All I was there. Well publicly. Yes, he did great values. I can't pine beyond that. It'd be on their first plane. Okay. Well, you're you're the union. Remember that I was like, oh, you're the eyesight reporter girl. So to say when I saw that first plane. I was like, oh, dear it's done. I hear you. I hear you. So what happened was even though it was widely understood that they had the best search engine even they were now under tremendous financial pressure. And even they're very swanky venture capitalists were threatening to withdraw support. And so long story short. You know, they went through a dark night of the soul. They had been very public about rejecting online advertising as a disfiguring force both in general on the internet and specifically for their search engine. But did like the purity of it at the being. And they really did they really did mean that and I do remember there's a story in fortune called chaos at Google. I remember it was what they doing owes with chaos and there and I remember thinking, oh, dear. Now, they're going to have to you know, there was pressure. You're right. One hundred dollars. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, this kind of pressure. Really changes the situation for people. They're not the only ones who've experienced this kind of thing. But you know, then you're gonna make some tough choices. And essentially what they did was declared a state of exception. You know, that state of exception is powerful powerful concept. You get to suspend your principles, you know, in politics you get to suspend the parliament suspend the congress suspend democracy in order to operate under emergency. So they declared a state of exception. And at that point there was already a situation where they knew that they had a lot of collateral behavioral data that was leftover from people's searching and browsing behavior. The data was set aside considered ways not adequately stored or organize. But some people have been fooling around with it. Understood. It had a lot of predictive value under the state of exception what they decided to do. Was to use these data logs quote, data exhaust. For their predictive power combine those with their already frontier computational capabilities, and even in those days, they're were calling it a I you know, is a moving target as you know, better than anyone in every era. It's a I, but it keeps changing so combine these unused data with with their computational capabilities and use that to predict a piece of future behavior in this feature human behavior in this case where someone was likely to click, and whether we're going to do is now sell this to their advertisers coming out of the black box a product computational product that predicts this little piece of human behavior where someone who's going to click so those online advertising markets suddenly were transformed not just advertiser. Figuring out key words and where to fix their ads. Now, they're transformed into a different kind of market these markets if you just zoom out a tiny bit. What you see is that these markets are now trading in behavioral futures, they're trading in these tiny products that predict future human behavior against Pacific -ly here. Click through behavior. Right. So now, we have a logic. Where the surveillance capitalism is unilaterally claiming private human experience. Because of course, the the folks who are searching and browsing didn't know that they were exhibiting these collateral data or those data were being saved right, which they were because they would put them up on the wall Gogol they would if ever been there early and they had the scrolling queries. That's in the which way, and then you would watch them. And they would you could see that it was so valuable like it was like gold going, and they they spun it into gold, really they spun. It into gold. That's exactly what they did care and affect their stories about Larry page, actually worrying about that scrolling display in the lobby that it gave away too much of exactly how intimate and how insightful and how personal.
Shoshana Zuboff: Surveillance capitalism is eroding democracy
"What happened was even though it was widely understood that they had the best search engine even they were now under tremendous financial pressure. And even they're very swanky venture capitalists were threatening to withdraw support. And so long story short. You know, they went through a dark night of the soul. They had been very public about rejecting online advertising as a disfiguring force both in general on the internet and specifically for their search engine. But did like the purity of it at the being. And they really did they really did mean that and I do remember there's a story in fortune called chaos at Google. I remember it was what they doing owes with chaos and there and I remember thinking, oh, dear. Now, they're going to have to you know, there was pressure. You're right. One hundred dollars. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, this kind of pressure. Really changes the situation for people. They're not the only ones who've experienced this kind of thing. But you know, then you're gonna make some tough choices. And essentially what they did was declared a state of exception. You know, that state of exception is powerful powerful concept. You get to suspend your principles, you know, in politics you get to suspend the parliament suspend the congress suspend democracy in order to operate under emergency. So they declared a state of exception. And at that point there was already a situation where they knew that they had a lot of collateral behavioral data that was leftover from people's searching and browsing behavior. The data was set aside considered ways not adequately stored or organize. But some people have been fooling around with it. Understood. It had a lot of predictive value under the state of exception what they decided to do. Was to use these data logs quote, data exhaust. For their predictive power combine those with their already frontier computational capabilities, and even in those days, they're were calling it a I you know, is a moving target as you know, better than anyone in every era. It's a I, but it keeps changing so combine these unused data with with their computational capabilities and use that to predict a piece of future behavior in this feature human behavior in this case where someone was likely to click, and whether we're going to do is now sell this to their advertisers coming out of the black box a product computational product that predicts this little piece of human behavior where someone who's going to click so those online advertising markets suddenly were transformed not just advertiser. Figuring out key words and where to fix their ads. Now, they're transformed into a different kind of market these markets if you just zoom out a tiny bit. What you see is that these markets are now trading in behavioral futures, they're trading in these tiny products that predict future human behavior against Pacific -ly here. Click through behavior. Right. So now, we have a logic. Where the surveillance capitalism is unilaterally claiming private human experience. Because of course, the the folks who are searching and browsing didn't know that they were exhibiting these collateral data or those data were being saved right, which they were because they would put them up on the wall Gogol they would if ever been there early and they had the scrolling queries. That's in the which way, and then you would watch them. And they would you could see that it was so valuable like it was like gold going, and they they spun it into gold, really they spun. It into gold. That's exactly what they did care and affect their stories about Larry page, actually worrying about that scrolling display in the lobby that it gave away too much of exactly how intimate and how insightful and how personal
"shoshana" Discussed on Recode Decode
"Hi, I'm Kara Swisher editor at large Recode. You may know me as the surveillance of capitalists. But in my spare time, I talked tech. And you're listening to Rico decode from the vox media podcast network today in the red chair is Shoshana Zubov, a professor mirada of Harvard Business School who's written several books about technology and economics. Her most recent book is called the age of surveillance capitalism. The fight for a human future at the new frontier of power, that's a lot there. That's going on. So let's talk a little bit about your background. So people get a sense. This is getting a lot of attention your book. And especially I I've been using the word surveillance quite a lot especially about surveillance economies surveillance states and things like that a longtime issue in human history. But now, it's never more important than ever. So why don't we talk a little bit about how you got to writing this particular book and some things you've done in the past who left here a little bit of your background. Well, I think the impetus for this book, which has been a long time in the making seven years just to produce this book, but many years before that and the the ideas and development. The real driver. Here's the sense that Har hopes and dreams for the digital future. Our sense of an empowering and democratizing. Israel future was at the beginning, which it was at the beginning. And a sense that this dream was slipping away. And that the reasons why it was flipping away the causes of this shift were we're not really clear, not really well understood forces taking shape very much behind the scenes, and it's almost like we woke up and suddenly the internet was owned and operated by private capital under a kind of regime, a new economic logic. That really was not well understood. And so my motivation CARA has come from really wanting to spend the time to understand to name exactly what this economic logic is and how its own imperatives its own compulsions created a completely different trajectory toward the digital future. Something that we didn't buy into yet. We did. Expect and because it's so unprecedented. It is by its very nature difficult to perceive. Absolutely. And also typical control and I like the word compulsion. Because I think that's a really good way to put it. It's it's an emotional word. But it's not it's actually it has to do what it's doing. It has to do what it's doing it to machine that's got to move in a direction that it's moving and the people in it are not bad people. They're not bad actors, but they themselves now are caught up in an economic machine that sometimes they even don't understand very well, and where it's driving and what its imperatives are. And most important what the consequences of those are interesting. I just did an interview on Twitter with Jack Dorsey that was sort of a bit of a goat rodeo. But it was interesting because a lot of the questions like a for specifics, and he couldn't do them. And it was really fascinating people found that part the most fascinating besides the platform being. Terrible to try to conduct any kind of conversation on. But we let me get here for your background talk about some of the things you've done before this. And then I want to get into the term surveillance capitalism, which I think is a fantastic way to put it. Let me hear rectory of your career. What you you've started where to get to this kind of topic? Well, as far as my professional career I began studying the shift to the digital and nineteen seventy eight. So where are you going to care? Fantastic. But I'm actually quite old hats off. So I'll date myself. I'll come right out there and date myself. I mean, I I started in nineteen seventy eight interviewing office workers Linux type workers factory workers who were the first the front line of our workforce that was shifting to the digital medium..
Jack Dorsey, Shoshana Zubov And Harvard Business School discussed on Recode Decode
"In the red chair is Shoshana Zubov, a professor mirada of Harvard Business School who's written several books about technology and economics. Her most recent book is called the age of surveillance capitalism. The fight for a human future at the new frontier of power, that's a lot there. That's going on. So let's talk a little bit about your background. So people get a sense. This is getting a lot of attention your book. And especially I I've been using the word surveillance quite a lot especially about surveillance economies surveillance states and things like that a longtime issue in human history. But now, it's never more important than ever. So why don't we talk a little bit about how you got to writing this particular book and some things you've done in the past who left here a little bit of your background. Well, I think the impetus for this book, which has been a long time in the making seven years just to produce this book, but many years before that and the the ideas and development. The real driver. Here's the sense that Har hopes and dreams for the digital future. Our sense of an empowering and democratizing. Israel future was at the beginning, which it was at the beginning. And a sense that this dream was slipping away. And that the reasons why it was flipping away the causes of this shift were we're not really clear, not really well understood forces taking shape very much behind the scenes, and it's almost like we woke up and suddenly the internet was owned and operated by private capital under a kind of regime, a new economic logic. That really was not well understood. And so my motivation CARA has come from really wanting to spend the time to understand to name exactly what this economic logic is and how its own imperatives its own compulsions created a completely different trajectory toward the digital future. Something that we didn't buy into yet. We did. Expect and because it's so unprecedented. It is by its very nature difficult to perceive. Absolutely. And also typical control and I like the word compulsion. Because I think that's a really good way to put it. It's it's an emotional word. But it's not it's actually it has to do what it's doing. It has to do what it's doing it to machine that's got to move in a direction that it's moving and the people in it are not bad people. They're not bad actors, but they themselves now are caught up in an economic machine that sometimes they even don't understand very well, and where it's driving and what its imperatives are. And most important what the consequences of those are interesting. I just did an interview on Twitter with Jack Dorsey that was sort of a bit of a goat rodeo. But it was interesting because a lot of the questions like a for specifics, and he couldn't do them. And it was really fascinating people found that part the most fascinating besides the platform being. Terrible to try to conduct any kind of conversation on. But we let me get here for your background talk about some of the things you've done before this. And then I want to get into the term surveillance capitalism, which I think is a fantastic way to put it. Let me hear rectory of your career. What you you've started where to get to this kind of topic? Well, as far as my professional career I began studying the shift to the digital and nineteen seventy eight. So where are you going to care? Fantastic. But I'm actually quite old hats off. So I'll date myself. I'll come right out there and date myself. I mean, I I started in nineteen seventy eight interviewing office workers Linux type workers factory workers who were the first the front line of our workforce that was shifting to the digital medium.
Are electric scooter shares the next big thing in NYC?
"Commuters in cities like Portland in Washington DC have found, a new way to. Get to work electric scooters that run about fifteen, miles per hour scooter sharing, companies like line and bird allow riders to. Rent the dacas vehicles for short periods of time similar to New York City bike but. Electric scooters having broken into the New York market quite yet Shoshana wouldn t reportedly story for the tech news website the virgin she joins us now she good morning good morning. Okay so some neighborhoods here in New, York really, are not easily accessible by subway how could these scooters fill the transportation gap so something that you see these electric scooters doing and, other cities, like California is kind of feeling that last mile gap distances that are too. Short for a car but, too long to and I think they could definitely do that here particularly in. The outer boroughs where subways might not reach all the way and we already have. This glut, of bicycles, and, the dock. Lous, bike. Share Programs here, in New York as well right. Right so they would be they would be kind of like battling whatever bikes especially Citi bike, it kind of already. In place okay here in. New York I'm assuming the scooters will face challenges do, we have the infrastructure for this New York in particular is a very crowded city we have a lot. Of we have a lot of pedestrian traffic and we have a lot of curbside space that's being regulated, for parking right now so no, matter what no matter where scooters end up if they end up. In sidewalks if they end up on the streets somebody's, going to be unhappy it's. Either going to be. The pedestrians. Bike. Riders or the people who are trying to park their cars would you write. These in the bike lane so in other? Cities that's what we're seeing but right now we still don't know and depending on how these electric scooters are going to be eventually regulated in the city that will, determine where we're riding. Them since they're a relatively new form of transportation, have other cities approached regulating, scooters so something that you'll see in a. Lot of cities is the scooter companies like burden lime kind of taking it Vantage you the lax regulations that are already in place and. Other cities what kind of catch up and kind of form regulations around the scooter companies, so some of those regulations might be, a cap on the total. Number of scooters that they can introduce into a city or they can kind of like require the companies. To share the usage data with local