4 Episode results for "Shelby Center"
Feb 12, 2010: University of Alabama Shooting
"This episode is brought to you by click up. Get more done in less time. By replacing all of your unorganized work apps and bringing your tasks stocks goals chats and more into a single shared workspace. Click up is here to help you crush your goals and help save you one day every week. Guaranteed clicked up his free forever. Sign up today at click up dot com slash spotify i. Today is friday february twelfth. Twenty twenty one on this day in twenty tem university of alabama assistant professor. Amy bishop shot six of her colleagues at the colleges huntsville. Campus fatally wounding three welcomed today in true crime. A spotify original from podcast. Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes listener. Discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of school shootings and murder. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. Today we're covering the twenty ten school. Shooting by amy bishop. After being evaluated for a tenure position bishop was denied a renewal to teach at the school for the next academic year. However there was little to suggest that she wouldn't simply move on and pursue a career at another university. it was mid february at the university of alabama huntsville. The spring semester was just starting to ramp up again which meant that amy. Bishop was back to teaching her classes. That friday the forty five year old biology researcher and assistant professor instructed her anatomy and neuroscience lectures actual. The faculty meeting that followed was typical for a week day. Bishop join twelve of her colleagues inside a conference room at the university's shelby center for science and technology. In fact her fellow professor deborah moriarty would recall the gathering as so laid back as to be almost mundane as talk about budgets scheduling events. Peter don there was little to hint that something violent was about to happen but about an hour into the gathering the calm was shattered out of nowhere. Amy bishop jerked out of her seat. She pulled a handgun from her purse and proceeded to open fire on the room. Bishop i shot the woman leading. The faculty meeting then took aim at numerous others around the table. The conference room was windowless and the sound of gunshots. Echoing inside became deafening. Amy bishop continued to fire at colleagues in the room. Turning the gun on deborah maury already herself the professor clung to bishops leg pleading with her to stop shooting when bishop attempted to shoot moriarty the trigger clicked. Her gun had jammed giving moriarty of fleeting window for action. As bishop tried to toggle the trigger loose moriarty crawled into the hallway. Bishop followed her. Still fumbling with the gun. Thinking quick moriarty sprang back into the conference room and shut the door. She and her fellow faculty members then barred the door with another table and wedged a refrigerator against it for extra weight. Meanwhile others in the conference room who were not critically injured tended to those who'd been shot as they called nine one one. It appeared that no less than six faculty members were wounded. Time seemed to stand still within the barricaded room. Deborah moriarty later recalled the entire incident from the moment bishop began to shoot until the door was barricaded. Probably took less than one minute. However brief there were grave consequences next will discuss a troubling event that was later tied to amy bishop's in february twenty ten. Hi it's vanessa from podcast. They say there's someone for everyone a soul to share your secrets with a companion to grow old with a conspirator to commit crimes with starting this february on spotify learn about the lethal and legendary lovers. Who fought the law in the podcast limited series criminal couples. If you've ever referred to your best friend or beloved as your partner in crime this exclusive series is for you beginning february. I join me for a collection of unlawful love. Stories from shows across the podcast network. Discover the extreme beliefs of cult leaders. Tony and susan. Alamo enter fred and rose. West's real life house of horrors and experience the madness and motives of the san francisco which killers fall for the most famous and feared pairs in history in the spotify original from podcast. Criminal couples. Enjoy two part episodes every monday. Starting february i follow criminal couples. Free and exclusively on spotify. This episode is brought to you by university of maryland global campus. Get a fresh start towards the future. You want with the credentials. You need by earning a degree or certificate online from university of maryland global campus. You g c has over ninety degrees specializations and certificates in career relevant programs. That means you. G c is ready to help you take the next step. Whether you're continuing your education or just getting started working toward your goals you g. C offers an accredited state university education online courses that worked with your schedule virtual advising and lifetime career resources to guide you along the way and even no cost digital materials replacing most textbooks. You know where you want to go you. Jay can help you get there. Take your first step at you. Jc dot edu slash podcast. That's you. I'm jay c dot edu slash podcast now back to the story on february twelfth. Twenty ten forty five year. Old niro biologist. Amy bishop arrived a routine faculty meeting with her university of alabama huntsville colleagues about the minutes after the meeting started. She pulled a handgun from her purse and fire on the group after she fled the conference room bishop discarded her bloodstained jacket and weapon in a bathroom. She intended to slip out unseen and meet her husband outside the shelby center but was intercepted by police outside. The building bishop was then arrested and taken into custody. The shooting critically wounded six of bishops colleagues. Killing three it was a senseless as it was ruthless and many wondered what prompted the usually reserved scientists to turn violent. It didn't take investigators long to uncover a vital clue according to the new yorker a police chief from the boston suburb of braintree. Where bishop had grown up called huntsville's sheriff's department the morning after the shooting. His warning was grave. The woman you have in custody. I thought you'd wanna know. She shot and killed her brother back in. Nineteen eighty six according to amy's mother. Judy bishop when amy was twenty one. She accidentally shot her younger brother. Seth as judy told. Amy been home visiting from college and mistaken seth for an intruder. The family had experienced a break in their house the year before and amy's father purchased a shotgun for security. Amy raised the loaded shotgun but stopped short when she realized it was only seth arriving home from running errands but when she attempted to unload the gun. Amy accidentally shot her eighteen year. Old brother killing him. Amy was held in police custody until that evening. Boston police indicated. They believed to be an accident. Supported by a medical examiner's analysis of seth's gunshot wound though the incident likely caused. Ptsd shock. amy. Bishop didn't receive counselling or psychiatric treatment following her brother's death. When bishop later married and became a mother. Despite the appearance of normality it became clear that she was prone to explosive behavior. She reportedly lashed out in public on various occasions. Even physically assaulting a stranger pancake restaurant whose family was seated before hers bishop was also known to dismiss graduate students in her lab that she was supposed to be advising some acquaintances believed she was growing arrogant and resentful this increasingly erratic behavior coupled with reports that bishop had grown bitter and isolated after being denied tenure led investigators to believe the shooting was a demonstration of retaliation and anchor as bishop awaited trial in prison. The case of her brother's death was also reopened in june of two thousand ten. A grand jury indicted. Amy bishop for first degree murder of her brother shortly after she was indicted on multiple counts including capital murder and attempted murder for the february twelfth. Shooting though bishop initially pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity she ultimately pled guilty and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole bishop tried unsuccessfully to appeal the ruling and while she later express some remorse for her actions as nbc. News reported in two thousand fifteen many wary of bishops sincerity one survivor of the huntsville. Shooting cited it as a ploy to reduce her time in prison to date bishop continues to serve her sentence in an alabama penitentiary. Thanks for listening to today in true. Crime i'm vanessa. Richardson today in true. Crime is a spotify original from par. Cast you can find more episodes of today in true crime and all others spotify originals. From podcast for free on spotify. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in true crime today in. True crime is a spotify original from cast. It is executive produced by max cutler. Sound designed by john boorda with production assistance by ron shapiro. Carl matted and brusca kovic this episode of today in true crime was written by mackenzie more with writing assistance by air and land and fact checking by cheyenne lopez vanessa. Richardson hi. it's vanessa again before you go. Don't forget to check out the new podcast. Limited series criminal couples from apocalyptic cult leaders to bank robbing bandits to married mafiosos. These couples give new meaning to till death. Do us part. Enjoy a two part episodes every monday. Starting february i follow criminal couples. Free at exclusively on spotify.
"Explicit content is found in this episode so listener discretion is advised. Welcome back to the true crime. Fan club. podcast. I'm your host. Laney males primarily carry out. Mass shootings females account for four percent of mass shootings. In the united states. overall women are less likely to commit homicide with ten to thirteen percent of homicides in the us carried out by females. Women are also less likely to use firearms to carry out their homicide impulses with only eight percent of firearm. Homicides committed by them. Today's focus is about a woman who broke the norms. In every way. Okay onto the show. It began like any other faculty meeting. It was three o'clock pm on february twelfth. Two thousand ten faculty and staff from the university of alabama and huntsville's biology department had just filed into the small windowless conference room and the shelby center for science and technology the department chair distributed printed agendas and the meeting began after about fifty minutes. The meeting drew to a close. And amy bishop a neurobiologist. At the university stood and withdrew a nine millimeter route from her purse. She turned and shot. Gopi pedala the department chair in the head. The other individuals in the room set in shock for second that stretched out like eternity. While amy pointed the gun at stephanie monte-carlo department assistant the bullet found its mark and shot another individual adria johnson. A cell biologist. People began reacting screaming trying to find cover and trying to escape the room. Unfortunately amy was blocking the only exit. Amy aimed at a fourth person. Maria ragland davis and shot her deborah moriarty colleague who considered amy. Her friend watched in horror and in disbelief as a shot. Maria snapping to she dove under the table screaming at amy to remember. Depres daughter and grandchild. Deborah flung her arms around amy's legs in screamed. Amy don't do this. Amy look down and pointed the gun at deborah. Amy pull the trigger but the gun just clicked. She pulled the trigger again and it clicked again. Deborah crawled into the hallway. And amy followed pulling the trigger over and over as. Amy tried to repair her gun. Deborah ran back into the conference room where she and other colleagues barricaded the door inside the room. Lay three of her colleagues dead and three others bleeding profusely from their wounds and other colleague joseph being told reporters that amy was methodical about executing her colleagues. Everyone who was shot was sitting on the same side of an oval conference table as amy the remaining individuals were on the other side dropped to the floor and try to use the table as cover. Meanwhile amy who was locked out of the conference room decided to leave. She cleaned herself up in a first floor. Bathroom washing off the gun. And throwing it and her bloody blazer in the trash can. Amy calmly walked to a lab and asked a student if she could borrow their cellphone then called her husband. She told him she was done then. Tried to leave the building via loading dock. There was a sheriff's deputy waiting for her and she was taken into custody immediately. The question started to pile up. Who was amy bishop. And why had she done this. Amy bishop was from braintree massachusetts. A middle class suburb of boston. Her mother judy was involved in local politics as an elected member of the town committee. Her father sam was a professor of art at northeastern university. She had one brother. Seth who was a year or two younger than her. Amy had completed her doctorate at harvard university and was married to jim anderson for about two decades at the time of the university shooting. The couple had four children aged eight to eighteen. That's just the surface information. However once the investigation into the shooting began reports of a troubled and troublesome woman appeared and two thousand and two. Amy bishop was charged with assault for hitting a woman in the head after an altercation over a booster seat at an ihop. She allegedly shouted. I am dr amy bishop. She was never found guilty although she was put on probation for this incident in nineteen ninety-three. Amy and her husband. Were investigated in relation to a male bumps into dr paul rosenberg of boston's children hospital. Dr rosenberg was responsible for amy's resignation as a postdoctoral fellow at the hospitals neurobiology lab two weeks later a pipe bomb package was sent to dr rosenberg's home gym amy's husband was implicated because he said he wanted revenge on dr rosenberg. Due to a bad review he had given amy on december nineteenth nineteen ninety-three dr rosenberg and his wife had just returned to their newton massachusetts home. After a vacation. Going through the mail. Dr rosenberg began to open a box. Instead of opening the flaps he used the knife to slice the box open unknowingly of oil disaster had the box been opened via the flaps. The bomb would have detonated killing anyone in the immediate vicinity. When dr rosenberg saw the contents of the package he and his wife immediately fled their home contacting. The police. state. Fire marshall's disarmed. The bomb and luckily the rosenbergs were safe. Dr rosenberg told investigators. He had been instrumental and amy's resignation from the hospital the month before he said despite her harvard credentials he felt she could not need the standards required for the work. He said despite her harvard credentials he felt she could not meet the standards required for the work other said that her husband wanted to shoot him bomb him stab him or strangle him. Others said that amy's husband wanting to shoot him bomb him stab him or strangle dr rosenberg going. Even further back in nineteen eighty six. When amy was nineteen there was a shooting incident. That disrupted the peaceful family home which was an old victorian and braintree. The front yard remained the gnarled copper beech tree that seth once climbed. Unable to climb back down until judy calmly talked him down semi had a seemingly idyllic childhood with parents who had been married for years. Judy and sam at the new england school of art in boston same had been born. Sam paparazzo glos. Son of greek emigrants after joining the air force. Sam changed his last name to bishop. It was in this pastoral tableau that a split second act of violence shattered forever on one sad night in one thousand nine hundred eighty five. The family returned from awake. In sam's father's on her. What they found was they had been burgled. And judy's wedding ring was taken along with silver cups to mark amy and set spurts as a result. Sam purchased a shotgun shells despite the protestations of judy and eighty. He kept the gun unloaded on a shelf in his bedroom closet and a box of shells on the nightstand. On december six nineteen ninety-six. A frantic nine one one call was placed from the bishop home. Judy called report shooting her daughter. Amy had shot her son and she had witnessed the whole thing. It was an accident on that morning. Judy had risen before anyone else in the home and driven to quincy where she stapled a horse she stayed there for quite some time writing the horse and cleaning out the stable which she did almost daily when she arrived home. Seth pulled in right after her. And the two unloaded groceries and carry them inside. Amy came downstairs carrying the shotgun and said it was loaded but she didn't know how to unload it. Judi told her not to point the gun at anyone. Unfortunately she had no sooner said that than. Amy pointed at her brother and pulled the trigger. Amy was standing very close to seth. So this was a point. Blank shotgun blast. Amy left the home carrying the shotgun. She pointed at a car in the hopes that it would stop. But when it didn't she went onto a local mobile dealership looking for a car local officer. Search for amy and quickly found her meanwhile south had been taken to the nearest hospital. Sam who had been out shopping for christmas presents went to the hospital in saul. Seth pushed past him on a gurney. He said sutton looked at him. But emergency room workers said he was already dead by then later that evening amy was released in judy's care due to amy's highly emotional state. The intention was to question her leader once. She had a chance to calm down but over the following days. This did not seem to happen. The investigation fell to the district attorney's office who questioned amy eleven days after the shooting the ultimate ruling was an accidental shooting but several individuals involved in the investigation stated leader. They had not seen the final paperwork. Amy's defense was that she was terrified to be in the house on her own after the burglary or robbery but that begs the question it had been at least a year since the burglary happened. So was this the first time she had been home alone since then. Amy also said that she and her father had an argument that morning before he had left. No charges were filed against in the shooting death of her brother. Amy said she had fired one shot into the wall in her bedroom. Covered it with a mirror then went downstairs and shot said then fired one more shot into the ceiling. The former police chief was shocked that anyone would consider he had been a part of the cover up in this case as he did not instruct his officers to release amy when they did and he did not know her mother very well despite the fact that she had served on the police personnel board. A few years. Prior to the death of seth when questioned after amy shooting spree in huntsville the former chief said many of the files had gone missing and no one knew where they were. Amy received no counselling after the shooting and just threw herself into her schoolwork. She again attended classes at northeastern university riding with her father to and from each day as time went on and she graduated from northeastern she rarely spoke of her dead brother. She entered harvard seeking a phd in genetics. During this time she was dating. Jim anderson who she had met at northeastern while playing dungeons and dragons they eventually got married in nineteen eighty nine in a small ceremony in the same place as sets. Wake in. nineteen ninety-one. Amy gave birth to their first of four children willie followed in quick succession by two more daughters. Thea and faye draw. The phd program was difficult combined with motherhood but in nineteen ninety-three. She completed her thesis and began her post doc career when she gave birth to a son in two thousand one few of her friends and colleagues new the significance behind naming this son. Seth babysat was born on. What would have been her brother. Sets thirty third birthday in two thousand three. Amy accepted a tenure track position at the university of alabama in huntsville. Amy and jim began working on an invention and automated cell incubator but because she was spending so much time working on this invention and obtaining patents. She did not publish like a tenure track faculty member should. She was warned repeatedly that week. Publication could affect her position but she chose to ignore these warnings. Additionally students complained about dr bishop and at least the year leading up to the shootings several students had said that she was reading straight out of the textbook and she never meet. I contact with anyone. She consistently told her students. She attended harvard and that they were not as bright as counterparts at harvard. She dismissed several students from the lab with no explanation while others transferred out of her class. While amy was working at beth israel deaconess medical center in boston. She collaborated on a paper with dr hugo gonzalez or autos. When the paper was completed she flew into a rage because she was not. I author a prominent position in academic writing in two thousand nine in what seems to be an attempt to have more articles published. She had one published in the online journal. International journal of general medicine a journal largely viewed as vanity or predatory publishing in the academic world in vanity or predatory publishing others typically pay a fee to have their work published and the work is typically not peer reviewed as they are in legitimate journals the article she published in two thousand eight listed four co authors jim lilly via and faye draw her colleague. Deborah moriarty called this publication weird and spring of two thousand nine. Amy's tenure was denied tenure disa- dream most academics and work for with tenure their position at a university s safe only touchable for cause or extreme situations such as a financial strain or program closure. Amy wanted this financial security which would also allow time for her to focus on research for publication as a book. Which is what most tenured faculty do without tenure. Amy's position at the university of alabama in huntsville was no longer guaranteed which meant she would need to find a new position and start over somewhere else. This was a low blow tamie who had been in the same position for six years. Adding salt to the wound was when amy found out. One member of the tenure board had called her crazy. Amy appealed and appealed and appealed. She hired an attorney. She became obsessed with douglas pressure. Who had been a prominent molecular biologists until he could no longer obtain research funding so he left academia and two thousand eight. Douglas was working in huntsville driving. Courtesy van for a local dealership when two scientists won the nobel prize based largely on his research. These two scientists assisted douglas and convinced him to return to academia and just a few months after the huntsville shootings. Douglas did return. This episode is brought to you by better help. Is there something that interferes with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals. Trust me i have been there. And i still struggle with these issues but better help online. Counseling is there for you. It's been there for me. You can connect with your professional counselor and a safe and private online environment which is so convenient for me and it really makes me feel comfortable. You can now get help on your own time an at your own pace you can schedule secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist whenever you need to. They have licensed professional counselors who are specialized in q. Plus matters grief self esteem trauma relationships anxiety. You name it. Anything you share with them is confidential. And if you're not happy with your counselor for any reason you can request a new one at any time at no additional charge. They have over three thousand. Us licensed therapist across all fifty states and there are available. Worldwide start communicating and under twenty four hours. The best thing is it. Secure convenient professional affordable and. It's not a crisis line. Best of all like you said. It's a truly affordable option. True crime. Fan club podcast listeners. Get ten percent off your first month with discount. Code t cfc. So why not get started today. Good or better help dot com slash t. Cfc simply fill out a questionnaire to help them. Assess your needs and getting match with the counselor you'll love that's better help dot com slash t. Cfc to get ten percent off your first month. Today's episode is brought to you by beekeepers. Naturals beekeepers is on a mission to reinvent your medicine cabinet with clean remedies. That actually work. You and your family deserve to feel your best all day. Every day which is why beekeepers naturals creates clean science backed remedies that naturally support your daily health like be soothed cough syrup the truly clean cough syrup that helps you get back on your feet. I try as much as possible to keep my voice healthy by using be sued for throat and immunity support and the flavor is so much better than your standard cough syrup. It's naturally powered by nature most powerful immune supporters pure buckwheat honey elderberry chug mushroom. Be propolis and olive leaf extract but be soothed. Cough syrup isn't the only beekeepers product. I love my family is obsessed with felix brain fuel. It helps naturally beat brain fog. Find your flow and deliver your game. We'll take one shot first thing in the morning to stay energized on past and focused all day. So are you ready to upgrade your medicine cabinet. This amazing cough syrup always sells out quickly. So don't delay your survey check out. Beekeepers naturals to try be sued cough syrup and discover other clean remedies. Her family will love. You can save fifteen percent on your first order today by going to beekeeper naturals dot com slash true crime. That's b. e. k. e. p. e. r. s. n. a. t. u. r. a. l. s. dot com slash tr u. e. C r i m e to get fifteen percent off. Meet your new medicine. Cabinet with beekeepers naturals before the shootings. Amy drove to the administration building while still in her car. She called the president's office and said she was going to come discuss her case she was told president williams would not meet with her and she should not come into the building moments later. Amy watched as the president and provost worse courted of the building by police in huntsville. Amy was the member of a writing. Group were fledgling authors could get feedback on their writing. This was another place. Where amy stood out as prickly and arrogant not long after joining. She came to a meeting with numerous copies of her manuscript. She told them she wanted their input before she sent it to her agent. The leader of the group exploded and let her know he did not believe she had an ancient in one thousand nine hundred eight. And the ipswich neighborhood where amy gym moved. Neighbors reported problems from the first day. They arrived on the first day. They're moving truck backed over the basketball. Hoop where all the neighborhood. Kids played all the neighbors thought. It was an accident but soon realized that they had done it intentionally. Afterwards for just over. Four years amy would often call the police complain about her neighbors. The music was too loud. Bouncing balls was annoying and the ice cream truck. Didn't need to come down their street when a basketball hoop was erected to replace the one that was backed over. Amy complained constantly about it. Finally some of the parents asked her. Why annoyed her so badly. The discussion almost erupted into a fistfight. Because amy became so incensed when rumors spread that they were moving to alabama. The neighbors rejoiced the day their vehicle backed out of the driveway for the last time. The neighbors ordered pizza popped open beers and had an impromptu block party to celebrate her departure. The home they moved to in huntsville wasn't anomaly. It sat on two streets. This created a great deal of confusion and caused mail to be lost more than once and spring of two thousand eight. Jim hit and totaled a police car. Jim's father was called to come bail him out of jail and when he got into the house he found things in a huge disarray. Jim senior tried to set things right while he was there but cut his visit short one morning after a run in with amy. He said they were just chatting when all of a sudden he apparently said something. That said amy off. She became a different person both in demeanor and appearance. He said i have never seen anyone before. Or after whose face whose body language changed one hundred percent. I saw a major difference is the color of her. Skin even changed. Amy believed herself to be a master novelist. She wrote three novels which have not been published and one of them she describes a lap shooting. In another passage. She discusses the protagonist a nine millimeter. Amy and her husband visited larry's pistol and pon a week before the shooting on the huntsville campus. Although some articles reported that jim did not know where she obtained the ruger it was determined at a hearing in march two thousand ten that a friend of gems had purchased a gun for jim in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. The friend said he purchased a handgun. For jim in new hampshire so jim could get around the waiting list in massachusetts allegedly. Jim was having a problem with a neighbor and wanted a gun. Some people claim that jim fan the flames. When amy felt slighted or embarrassed stoking the fire until she was in a deep rage. Once amy bishop was booked into the jail she was charged with three counts of capital murder and three counts of attempted murder. Her attorney roy miller said she was likely insane and did not remember the shootings. He went on to say that she suffered from severe mental including paranoid schizophrenia. She was required to take anger management after the two thousand two incident at i hop but had never actually taken any of the courses amy's husband. Jim remained loyal to her even after her arrest stating that it was beyond him. Why his wife with her violent past and her uncertain future and career would have snapped like she did on thursday february twenty fifth. Two thousand ten university officials notified the press that bishop had been suspended retroactively to the day of the attack and would be fired. Media had raised questions about her status compared to the professors she wounded additionally after her arrest. An inquest began into the shooting of her brother. In massachusetts a state police investigator who had worked the original case. Before stated he had never been given the information about the attempted holdup at the car dealership. Also particularly damning against amy was a newspaper clipping caught in a crime scene photo taken of amy's room. The clipping was about the murder of patrick. Duffy's parents by a teenager. Who shot them with a twelve gauge shotgun. Then stole a getaway car from a dealership in june two thousand ten. Amy was charged with first degree murder in connection with the shooting. Death of her brother in nineteen eighty-six investigators said she would have to go on trial in alabama before she could be tried in massachusetts amy's potential involvement in the nineteen ninety-three pipe bomb was also reinvestigated however in october. Two thousand ten. The us attorney's office stated she was not being charged in that incident and the case remains unsolved and two thousand twelve two and a half years after the huntsville shootings. Amy bishop was sentenced to life in prison. She had previously pled guilty but was still required to have a trial since she had pleaded guilty to a capital murder charge. Amy repeatedly said she did not have anything to do with the shootings and in court. She shook her head any time. The judge or prosecutors discussed the killings district attorney. Rob broussard said this did not make any sense to him. You can't take a loaded nine millimeter and hold it inches away from human being's head to me. You didn't mean to do that. The shootings left the campus in a state of upheaval. The university mourn the loss of three of their professors and rallied around the three who had been shot during the meeting. gopi padilla. The department chair was remembered as a lovable father figure who help students with anxiety over giving speeches. He told one of his students if she got nervous to just look at him. Adrian johnson had created the council of african american faculty in two thousand four and maria. Ragland davis had helped promoted in recent years and two thousand four. The two were among only seven black faculty members at the university. A memorial service was held for the three professors on the campus on friday february nineteenth. Two thousand ten and more than three thousand people attended. Students returned to the huntsville. Campus on monday february twenty-second. The university band was on campus playing tunes and hugs deborah moriarty. Amy's collie again friend. Who narrowly escaped death. That day was named the interim department chair. Deborah said one way the survivors got through. The event was by remaining in close contact particularly in the weeks immediately. Following the shooting. Staff aide stephanie. Monte-carlo shot in the head was still recovering a year later and had retired from the university. Professor jolee also shot in the head went through months of treatment as well as multiple operations began teaching again in the fall semester of two thousand eleven but unfortunately passed away from a heart attack in two thousand seventeen he and amy bishop both joined the biology department in two thousand three louis cruise. Veira suffered the least severe injuries and returned teaching sooner than the others. The school suffered a dip in enrollment for biology courses but the number of biology majors remained stable. A year later amy bishop's office remained dark and locked with her belongings. Still inside lawsuits. Were filed against amy and the university of alabama huntsville by the survivors and the victims families. The suit against u. a. h. alleged at the university had warning signs s to amy's mental instability. Amy bishop had attempted suicide at least once while in custody and what seems like a final insult on top of the injury. The cost of the trial to the state of alabama was at least five hundred and fifty three thousand dollars. Just for attorney's fees additionally the state of massachusetts decided not to pursue the case against amy once she was sentenced to life in alabama. Okay fan club members as i conclude this episode. My one question to you is. How will you sleep tonight. Thank you for listening if you enjoyed this episode. Please leave a positive review and rating on apple podcasts. Or your podcast player of choice. It really does help. You can find us on most social media channels twitter at t. cfc pod facebook dot com slash tfc cfc. Podcast instagram at true crime. Fan club pod and of course our website is true crime fan club dot com if you have an episode request citizen email. Tfc pod and gm dot com. This episode was written and researched by susie. Seeing john content editing by brittany martinez produced by the best in the business nico or niks sad. We talk of dreams. Check him out on twitter at talk of dreams or we talk of dreams dot com.
23: A Recovery Revolution
"Grab a chair. Let's play second number quick. So why are we going to start with you or your great great great all over gray or disputes over all the didn't sleep well You know it's one of those another one wake up at four o'clock in the morning and it could get back to sleep you know and just you know filling a little stressed so if you had to guess where do you think. I am group therapy. Maybe a warm up an intro to theatre class. Nope I'm at a staff meeting. And this is daily ritual for this team. Today I am bread. Sparkley Coterie colored. Today I have been here since thirty Uber. We're could not sleep last night. Decided to get up through on Harry Potter. Search like okay. We'll do what we need to do today. That bright sparkly glitter fellow. Is Jack Register? He's the clinic manager here at Eleanor. Health and high point North Carolina. Jack starts each day by asking his team three simple questions. What color represents you today? Where yet and what do you need from the rest of the team? It's a quick way to get everyone on the same page which is important here because as Jack told us in the world of addiction things can change at any moment can i. Can we put you on tape for one second? Can you like it? Seems like there's some drama happening here. We're just we're just like see you pacing back and forth like on the phone and some member came in sick. What's ailing I'm Stephanie? Willis Wax Today. I'm turquoise or maybe a seafoam and this is last day the name Eleanor health ringing a bell. It's probably because heard it from last day. Fan favorite doctor and Zinger Harrison. She's a CO founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health and when we talked to her back in August. This place was just about to open. Its doors for the first time. Now it's up and running. There are four different clinics in North Carolina. So what is Eleanor Health? So health is a comprehensive Monta tutorials substance use disorder treatment program for individuals with opiate use disorders or other substance use disorders. That's well put another way. Eleanor health is a really innovative patient. Facility in Zinger is a doctor and she's about to throw out some clinical terms so quick refresher. The American Society of Addiction medicine outlines four levels of care level. One is outpatient. That's less than nine hours. A week of treatment level to includes intensive outpatient or partial hospitalization for nine to twenty hours a week level. Three's residential and level four medically staffed treatment at a hospital level. One Care but when we move into the communities that we're going into we're trying to create a part of the continuum that has been missing which is a place for people to come to after their level to for people to come to after their level three residential care or for those whose appropriate to come straight to us from detox. Our goal is to individually conceptualize. Each person that comes into our clinic and help them craft the formula that will quickly get them to recovery as defined by them because many of the treatment programs have been born out of the abstinence based model which means you can never use anything ever period again or else you cannot be in this program. You're not considered to be in recovery. Our Program Sets those goals with the patients. So if we have a patient who wants treatment for their opiate use disorder. But they had you know. A non hazardous drinking pattern. They want to continue to drink a glass of wine at night. We can set the goal to treat an opiate use disorder. And you can still have a glass of wine at night. Unlike other Abstinence based programs where it's like you have to be able to commit to absolutely nothing at all or you can't be here by providing this level of flexibility. They believe their members are more prepared to actually maintain recovery which is really the most important part right. Okay let's frame this. In a different way one. That will be very familiar to many listeners. So think about dieting. I can go on a Paleo whole thirty. Sugar is evil kind of Diet and say I'm never GONNA eat another car for the rest of my life but that will never happen. I am setting myself up for failure and I'm giving myself in out if it means that the moment I slip up and eat a cookie. I am a bona fide. Fuck up and my diet is over. Eleanor health doesn't make it so easy to quit and the way we do that is by unparalleled fussy so myself access to Mit. I know I know all last day. Roads lead back to but even if your sick of hearing it from us. There are many institutions. Who still haven't gotten the memo. The True Abstinence based program would even consider MIT unacceptable. And we know that about forty percent of subsidies treatment programs that are not accepting people who have part of their formula. We will get into this more next week but there are a shocking number of recovery programs that are providing extraordinary care but still have strict rules against people using medication assisted treatment from some AA groups to five star residential facilities. You can literally get kicked out for being on the difference between that approach and eleanor. Health approach is that we know that the value in maintaining our treatment relationship. Even if your urine drug screen is not turning negative supersedes the risk that we create by kicking you out of treatment so we don't kick people out of treatment. It just means we need to let the relationship grow. We need to consider a different intervention. That might be more effective for you. In this moment we need to identify something that you haven't put your finger on yet that we haven't put our finger on yet that's driving the continues and so it's a problem solving relationship. I type of approach as opposed to. If you don't stop using right now quote. You're not ready to be in treatment. That's incredible truly groundbreaking to last week. We got into why the thirty day model doesn't work for most people. Some places like the women's home are solving that problem by offering extended residential options. Eleanor health is essentially meeting a similar goal in a slightly different way. They provide a soft place to land no matter where you are in the recovery process just got outta residential and don't know how to get back on your feet. You are welcome here. You've never been to treatment before but no you need help. You're welcome here. They like to say they're level of CARE is for one hundred percent of people at some point in the illness they offer what's called a wrap around model which essentially means wrapping a comprehensive set of services and support networks around people rather than forcing them into a predetermined treatment parks so we enter into treatments using evidence based methods so everybody will get screened for depression anxiety trauma. We have our psychiatrists in house. You can get started on your Ma t no more than two days from your first contact with because we know it's critical to be there when the time is right we have a one year program which reduces in intensity as the symptoms of the substance use disorder reduces. But what's beautiful about? It is that let's say you're in phase three but some confluence of factors leads to an increase of your symptoms. Guess what we can increase the intensity of your service with us based on what you need at that time. We're really like aiming to just call out stigma and so we want people when they walk in our doors to fill a warm embrace to feel like they have joined a community that will always value them and always have their best interests at heart and proactively look for them. If they come up missing I tell my patients. You're the expert in you. I'm the expert in medicine. Each of these expertise is equally valuable and we put them together to come up with something amazing. So that's Eleanor Hill. Yeah I was GonNa say it seems like a utopia yeah. I'm glad that you said that the the idea that humans have around utopias that it's you can actually get there And then in this context you actually can. The funny thing about utopias is that they start in real places often real places grappling with very basic problems. What we're finding is that these communities are desperate. They're so happy we're say we're moving in. We'll do the hard work for you if you prescribe the meat will do. The wraparound services. People are so excited. The emergency departments we would get people started on suboxone but we don't have anywhere to send them when we started from the hospital. We're so happy that you're coming and so the reception has been overwhelmingly warm. The tree practitioners in the community want to be doing the right thing. The system just is not making that easy or possible right now and so. We hope to ease that pain point as we move into communities than the arms have been wide open so far eleanor. Health is a centralized hub with a very dedicated set of community partners. They don't offer every single service in house instead. They work with a network of providers residential facilities hospitals physicians. So if you really need patient care. Eleanor health can find that for you. Make sure it's in your insurance network and then stay in touch throughout your stay to make sure that you have a plan in place when you're done but it's important to mention that eleanor health is still in its infancy. They've been building their program from the ground up. An Zinger has been recruiting an army of staff members but she and her co founders are very picky about who's allowed to enlist we are not bringing people into our leadership who are not hard line or mission aligned. The first level screen has zero to do with medical skill zero. What I have told my person. Who's doing my screens for me. Is You talk to this person on the phone and you listen for productive language. You listen for explicit stigma. You listen for implicit stigma. You listen for lack of the harm reduction relationship I orientation and if you hear any of those things they don't make it past the first screen right because I can rain you to practice in May T- I cannot train you to have the heart and the compassion in the commitment that the people were serving need each and every one of us to have and this brings us back to the sparkly. Gentlemen we met up top Jack. He is heart compassion and commitment personified. And this is most obvious. When he's talking about the people he serves. We don't call them patients we don't call them clients their members and there are members for life. And that's the reason why we're here. That's why the doors are open. I actually got involved in a policy work as an advocate in lobbyists I with Trade Association Social Work And then in larger contexts and I frankly got really just hired of banging my head against the wall at one point. I wanted to be politically active but then I lost my mom in two thousand nine at the age of fifty six from her mental illness. when she should have been a grandmother she was suddenly gone and my family didn't even really know how to function at the moment when I was at my my social worker anymore. Walmart hiring Eleanor House called. And so what I'm able to do here is a combination of all my skills. A combination of all my experiences can bring my grief here the grief of the people that have lost and know that I can help somebody else not end up there. Jack's not in this alone. We also talked to community recovery partner. Bruce rate is the boots on the ground guy at eleanor health. Most of the people that work here they worked in other fields jobs and the hit like ceilings of what help they could provide. They the kid too much at the job they were. You know money's for giving a shit. Basically Bruce realized early on that these people do very much give a shit and that they run things a little differently around here. I never been to orientation with US Jay Z. As I was like maybe Oh man. It was in nineteen eighty six when I was coming of age. Ronald Reagan doubled down on the one drugs that had been started by Richard Nixon leadership team who was conducting Bruce's orientation played this short film it was produced by The New York Times and it's Jay Z. Doing the voice over about the history of the war on drugs and racial inequity in the criminal justice system. And there's an artist. Molly crab apple that is sketching it. All out as he speaks young men like me who also became so villain and drug addicts lack moral fortitude. I've watched this video. Dozens of times over the years. It is truly riveting and very informative then we had a discussion. They say it is GonNa make some people feel comfortable. But we'RE GOING TO BE REALLY TONOS. Lay offer this Joe. Excuse my French would say but could be. Arcade could say what I wanted to say. Could feel the way I want to feel when it was still value. Wasn't you know frowned upon? You know you could be self. You're a whole person. Yeah the whole person approach. We've heard variations of this idea. Pop up a lot lately last week. It was the women's home with their trademarked. Whole Life Model. Sometimes it feels like their recovery world's version of all natural organic a buzzword that may or may not be real but lens air of credibility but at eleanor health. Everyone from the staff to the people they serve embody the whole person approach which is to say they're human with their own backstories their own emotional needs and their own opinions and I come at this with lots of passion and lots of energy because I have personally lost lots of people care about and love and come out at one of those families that got beat up by mental health and addiction and I would prefer for people not to be beat up here. It's clear that Jack has empathy for the people who come to eleanor health. Looking for help and that help is truly unconditional. We believe in a incremental harm reduction approach. Because the minute that we come at you like a ton of bricks you're gonNA respond by getting flattened so if they decide to bail on us for bit okay. Our model is built in a four phase approach in phase. One you get tons of touches with us you might hear from US eight times a week if we gotta come to your house. We're GONNA come to your house right but the idea. Is We kind of really give you a lot of connection initially and then as you start to figure out what you need from us we start pulling back the pieces that you don't right? And that gives us the ability to scale and serve other folks and gives us the ability to uniquely be present to what folks are looking for. You keep using the word tach. How do you define a touch? Everything from phone call to a face to face to Meet you in the community coffee shop here where you are to formal meeting A session to meeting with one of our providers. All of those are considered touches. We want it to be what you need. We will do so. For example we have a story that one of our members lived in local tent city He was homeless and Shelby was able to meet with him and he kept saying. I'm worried about my tent blown away. I don't I can't talk to you my ten GonNa Blow Away S. Y. Shelby is the other community recovery partner at Eleanor Health. Sadly for us but awesome for her. She was on vacation when we visited eleanor health. And while we didn't get to meet her in person it is clear that this lady is mighty loved around here because she always goes above and beyond. She's like okay. What do you need to make that not happen? He goes well. If I could hammer it up against the you know the thing right the whole there then she's like okay so she went and got some hammer nails came back and handed them to him and he hammered up his stanton and talk to us. He's now in transitional housing. He's now he looks like a million bucks. He looks like a different guy. Every time comes in I don't recognize any comes up and gives me a bear hug. And he goes. It's bobby I know. You don't remember me because he doesn't even look like the guy that we met and he said I guess I have to be loved by. Y'All whether I want to or not that's what folks did hear sears. Used like removing barriers left. And Right. That's what we're all about. You'll hear that from every member of our leadership. Our job is to remove the barriers to get folks to the next place so if that's a little barrier or if it takes time and it's a big barrier that's what we're here for. You'll notice that a lot of this is the same thing. The women's home offers for the women they serve in Texas and while they certainly have their differences. The broad strokes are the same compassion connection community tools to help members cope with trauma for the long haul forever and these things do seem to be effective for members but they also inspire and motivate staff corps. Some time me because they put every angle they they really take away all excuses for ecause. No people have to be tied after. Be ready however they give you everything that you need to be successful place like that. Who Okay I know said up top that this is a real life utopia but all the employees were so over the top positive that I was starting to feel like I was stuck in the Truman. 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And if you're not happy with your counselor you may request a new one at any time for no additional charge. Best of all. It is a truly affordable option with financial aid available. For those who qualify. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slash last day. Fill out a questionnaire to help them. Assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love as a special offer for my listeners. Get Ten percent off your first month with code last day. Don't delay get help today at better. Health Dot com slash last day We're back I'm cindy ever Anaheim. Sixteen Years Cindy hobbled in for interview wearing a big black medical boot. She'd had a major accident a few months ago but muster up pretty good lander in the hospital and put her in close contact. With lots of high powered opioids. Cindy's injury set off the most recent and arguably the most intense cycle of substance abuse but our story is deeper and way longer than that. Look at the big picture and it goes back thirty years thirty five long time but then I went through a long period of time doing great in being married having children. You know running the business you know being the perfect mom taking the kids everywhere on their lunch and other Games Going to school and doing all that well the kids grow up. My husband left empty home. Move THE ATTITUDE. Just one bedroom. It's just me and struggling to figure out who me was. Everything was changed in Hong jumped back on that road make choices and not thinking. That was hurt. Anybody you know just me. I'm not hurting anybody. Nobody really knows but I saw what it was doing to me. Just couldn't continue to on that how to figure out who I am important on the help. A truck one month before we met Cindy in this tiny back office at Eleanor health. She decided to reach out for help. She called on a Thursday reuss picked up the phone and she realized she had no idea what to say or how to say it. Because I was afraid that if I said what was true but they would say he would say. You can't come here. And I was struggling for what to say and then I forgot how he said it but he basically said your current user and that was true. Just done drugs before called and I was like it's okay once comes as Tamar. Wow Okay I'll come. I came and You know sorry but I did drugs before came. Came in and Shelby and she was so kind and so understanding and so nice but she bought it that you know to drug test me and I'm GONNA fail the drug test already tell you so okay get worryingly okay just kept saying it's okay. Told her what she would find. That's what she found. She didn't say see instead of sending her away. Shelby Center over to Jack. You sat with her and talk to her and the whole time he was smiling. It all felt like a dream especially because she had just had the complete opposite experience at another treatment facility. If I didn't meet the criteria I don't know I wouldn't kit down enough or I was kicked down too much and I was just site. I can't even light cullman tra- all Cindy wanted was a chance to try. But she was knocking on the wrong door and like David Smith said a couple of weeks back. There shouldn't be any wrong doors. Cindy had a moment of clarity. And Eleanor health welcomed. Her with open arms walked in here and they were so nice to me and that people are talked to discuss more comfortable and more comfortable and when I left I said to my mom I don't even know if this is real it such the perfect place for me. I fell like Bingham scared that it's not really real ben still new and green and everything to it so everybody just makes feel really comfortable and I felt comfortable being open and honest and not like leaving things out about myself to not look so bad. How does that feel? It's different? Fill a whole lot different but in a way I do keep being surprised at how do feel because didn't expect Priscilla's good as I do and I do feel pretty good but I know I'm here and I have them and they continue to even when I'm not here. I hear them so what they said to me. In the way they treated me. That goes with me when I leave which I didn't expect that and expect to hear their voices talking living here. Even they're like call me anytime but I never picked up the phone and call him but it was like I picked up the phone and call them because they're talking to me so when you hear the voices of these wonderful people in your head saying here don't do that. Don't do that or if you do. It's okay or still going to be there for you but it's more important that don't do that. Do you. Hear how Cindy is essentially repeating all the things in Inga and Jack said that Bruce and shelby reinforced in that intake process. There is nothing she can do. That will make her on welcomed here and this is key because Cindy is very new to this. Even though she saw her husband go through a Cindy has never been to treatment herself at sixty years. Old This is her very first time. You know because I came in here and it was a drug addict. You're not a drug addict. After we talked to said you're substance abuser and explained to me me different clear definitions and talk to me about the brain and what different things do to your body and help makes you act in. Choose and make me look at things. Different must still can't look at myself without saying I chose to be like this and they are trying very hard to teach me. That didn't necessarily choose was still got the honestly at the beginning of the series. This whole addict for substance user issue felt really important but twenty three episodes in. We've heard from a lot of people who strongly and positively identified as addicts so labels aside. Whatever you call yourself. The thing that matters is reframing the idea that she chose this that to me is the beginning of the brain rewiring process and that process requires a lot of touch is in the beginning. So how often are you hear comments a week and then now that they're doing the group thing I come twice but they have let me know that I'm welcome to come any day and hang out with the sit in the lobby? Read a magazine talk to them on board or climbing the walls or anything. The doors open. Here don't talk to me. I'll be here. Pick up the phone call. We'll come get you WANNA get launch in a really really really conned nights and so far every day. I swear I thank God that they're here and afraid that their poof disappear and I'm so young and new alden aged but young in this you know I'm scared to it'll go away and I'm not strong enough yet. They go back can do what I was doing that now. Will throughout our interview you can hear the unbridled vulnerability in Cindy's voice and when we came back the next day. I asked Jack if that's something that concerned him. Yes when we talked to Cindy yesterday. I am questions specifically about her so like she seems like she is in such a vulnerable place right now and like this is where I believe in everything you guys are doing here. I'm so afraid for her like I am afraid that she's going to go home and use and relapse like A. It's like I wanted to follow her home like if I don't hear from her at least two to three days. We're going to call her and every time. I'm with her and Mike how you doing how you motivated but see. Here's the thing about eleanor health. Different if she relapses that's okay. It doesn't mean she's out of the program it just means we Redo the plan. Our corporate medical director. Dr Harrison has the same. If something happens it doesn't work. It's not the client's fault. It's the planes fault that means we step back and figure out what we need to do differently so with masonry. If something happens we're going to be okay. What do we need to do now right so while I worry for her too? She's a survivor and has been through hell and back right. And that's part of her story is that she was actually able to block her dealers whenever they called and said Hey. Do you want some free stuff? And she was able to do that on her own. Huge in early recovery coach. That is huge but I have to be honest. I was still a little terrified. Talking to Cindy we've never featured someone who is this new to recovery. It's still intense. Just listening to her tape but I did get to see how much this place means to her. It really is a life vest and after the break we get a glimpse of what it looks like when someone who's drowning shows up at eleanor health for the very first time. Lemon on a media the company that produces last day the company where I am the chief creative officer just turned one happy birthday to us and for our birthday. We have a brand new website so go check us out at. Www DOT lemonade media dot com here to get the www anymore. Just say limit on okay. Lemonade MEDIA DOT COM. Go check us out and this is particularly useful to you to you last listeners. Because on this new website you can find brand new conversation forms four last day where you can connect with us and each other about what you here. You can also find a lemonade media store with all sorts of last day. Swag right now to celebrate our first birthday with us. You can use the Promo code birthday ten to get ten percent off your entire order so visit lemon on media dot com and shot with our last day community and use Promo Code Birthday ten for ten percent off your swag order today. The next recommendation is a story for the Weirdos the loners and the ugly ducklings Dear Young Rocker is a raw music oriented audio memoir in this scripted narrative podcast listeners. Both laugh and empathize as the protagonist Chelsea struggles to feel cool enough to exist and finds a home in music. It's also a series of letters from older Chelsea to her younger self reminding us all that as alone as we may have felt at a young age there so many others out there who felt just like US executive produced by Jake Brennan of disgraced land. Dear Young Rocker is an Iheartradio podcast. You can find it for free on. Iheart or pretty much anywhere podcasts are. It's Day two at Eleanor. Health and EDSEL hectic. Can I can put you on for one second. Can you like it? Seems like there's some drama happening. Here's what we see you pacing back and forth like on the phone and some member came in sick. What's going on so this is sort of the perfect scenario so what we have happening right now is that we have a walk in member who is brand new to us who is not would shape. Our clinic scheduled. Today is already really packed with not much flexibility right so this is the downside of only having open doors people tend to walk through them sometimes unexpectedly so cue the network of providers and community partners so typically when our providers are not available here in this clinic. I then get online and say to the other clinics help I need somebody so we have another provider another clinic. Who's GonNa see our walk in person? So we're doing all of their intake paperwork here and then we're getting them ready to go online to see that person and so we come up with the best plan. Possible keep folks comfortable in. My job is to work. The magic connect the dots. Pull the strings what we need to do. What's happening this morning? So when you say members like sick what does that? What does that mean usually withdrawals usually that means they are in this Rosa withdrawal or as in our Watkins case. I'm ready for care today. Damn it mom and daddy are with us right so we get support system. We got person we are ready for. Care now wow and you can't turn that person away no ma'am and we won't. That's a critical moment. Yes ma'am of course. This is the critical moment. Cindy tried to get into treatment and she was turned away so she used right up until that first day at Eleanor. Health for OPIOID users. Especially knowing everything we do now about fennel that is throwing that person back into a life and death situation which is unacceptable. But obviously that level of high intensity stakes makes work-life pretty intense. I mean I guess I was just GonNa ask you like what's a typical day for you and that is what I was expecting cat. Yup Thank you for giving me that tape woman. Laughing at me is nurse Judy. As a refresher judy was the one who was gray and yesterday staff meeting and it was really hard to get her on tape today because she was being pulled in a million directions. You come in then. There are people that have walked in. You got to figure out how to fit them in and you WANNA turn people down. That are needing US especially someone that may be you know in crisis or almost in crisis you know you. WanNa turn them down so you just kind of jump through hoops. You Skip Lunch. You know. Hold your ds long as you can. I told him yesterday I was like look. I'm going to beat a day Old Lady. I got a lady Blackhawk after it sounds silly but that is the kind of practical consideration. You have to make when you work in a field with such noble intentions. I want to absolutely be available to someone in crisis but also I'm GonNa pee today. I mean that's part of the meet people where they're at and do you find that. The meeting people where they are is a harm reduction. Principle is true in medicine. Do you feel like that's a concept that you have had in your career. Is that something? That's specific to. Eleanor I don't think it's just eleanor. But it's done well by eleanor don well by eleanor. And I think that It's not as common as I would like to see it because so many times you know in medicine throughout these years and years for me. It's like you know you try to fit people into the box. That's already define you know. Yep Diabetes Care or smoking cessation or things you try to fit them into a box. You know this is how we do it you know. I'm an old school nurse. I've been a nurse since either of you were born before either. You're born and give us today. I've been under since nineteen seventy five. Wow I was born in eighty one. Of course she knew Judy's been around for awhile but at Eleanor Health. She's encountering some stuff for the first time it's interesting you said you're an old school nurse but eleanor does. All Telemedicine seems very progressive. Yeah that is and you know. Some of the newfangled ways to deliver the care You know I'm still kind of muddling my way through but the mentality and the approach at you know really helping and you know how we do that. Yeah I'm hands on if this is new to you as well. Telemedicine is where doctors patients essentially video chat online. They can see each other and talk to each other in real time. So it's like any normal appointment. And then Judy does all the hands on stuff like taking blood pressure. Vitals stuff like that. What are the pros and cons of telemedicine? I think the pro is definitely it's efficient. It's efficient The the practitioner gets a chance to see people without having to be here. I think it is efficient for them but as for us as well. You know if you can't get a doctor in at a certain time then you know. Dial up zoom boom there is. This is just one of many ways. That eleanor health is innovating to keep costs down while maintaining a high quality of care years. Inga again so the other thing. I'll say about substance use disorder right now like the rest of healthcare in America is overwhelmingly fee-for-service which means you go. See the doctor that their post or whatever practitioner they send a bill to the insurance company. Or if you don't have insurance to you and you pay for that service and it there's like a fee for that service. The problem with managing chronic medical conditions like that. Is that so much of what you need to do to support? People doesn't have code attached to it that you can bill for and so the system has been built such that. You literally can't do what you need to do and sustain your practice because we need to do is go sit in the Er and wait for someone to show up so that we can start the relationship immediately right there in the Er will we need to do when a person misses their appointments is send one about field workers out to their house and say. Hey we haven't seen you in a while. We just wanted to make sure you're okay. None of those have a fee attached to them that you can bill and so classically treatment providers are not able to do that. Eleanor health is actually negotiating with peer partners for value. Based care which is like when you come in our care. The payment is based on what we need to provide to help you get in recovery as quickly as possible and maintain it for as long as possible. So we're really looking to change the way substance use disorder care is delivered but also to change the way insurance is paying for substance use disorder care so that it can more closely align with what folks need. Okay Sounds Amazing. But how does this relationship with the insurance companies actually work? We talked to Corbin Pedro ending his business partner and CEO broke it down for us. I always say we're the only game in town. When it comes to a unique payment model that incentivizes recovery not relapse and when we go into a community like in high point where we are and we try to serve as many people in that community as we can go into a market estate in partnership with of Very Forward Thinking Health Insurance Company. Who has agreed to pay us in a certain way and so here in. North Carolina our partner is Blue Cross of North Carolina. And they've agreed to pay us a certain way and they want their members who are struggling with addiction to come to us and so that sort of has set the groundwork for our ability to sort of treat in our clinical model and so we're not paid for quantity were paid for the care and the outcomes that we get for our patients but in order for something like this to actually happen everywhere. Policy-makers need to get on board because as things stand now access is pretty uneven depending on where you live like North Carolina for example. You know it's now. One of twelve states that has not expanded Medicaid. You're in as well in Texas. And so there's a dramatic level of need over. Fifty percent of the people in the state who have a substance use disorder are uninsured. This is something we talked about with Andy Slavic back in Episode Eight. If fifty percent of people dealing with substance abuse are not insured. Their best bet is to show up at the ER which is inefficient and costly. So when you hear a politician claim to care about taking on the OPIOID crisis and saving taxpayer money. While also voting against Medicaid. Call them out on it because that does not add up. Eleanor Health has managed to create a business model that is actually efficient and warm. Oh and based on evidence which is what you would expect in a medical setting. Yeah and that's why I look at some of the models that exist out there and it's often somebody who's experienced addiction themselves and they're like well. This worked for me. It was moving to a new city and Marathon. And so they like start. This program are like walking through the woods or living in a beautiful place on the beach. And they're like this is what works for me so it must work for everyone and that's not actually evidence like we believe in evidence. We appreciate anecdotes right. And so we appreciate it but like we we follow evidence and we always you can tell our clinics warming welcoming like come and hang out here if you need to like. We're not a residential. We're not home but you know a place where you can feel comfortable income if you need a safe safe place to come which brings us back to Cindy. Found that safe place when she needed it most. She is at the very beginning of her recovery journey and that can feel daunting she still in that white knuckle phase of early sobriety. What Wilma described as walking around without skin? Which is literally one hundred percent exposed but in addition to feeling all the scary stuff. She's any better place than she's been in a really long time. You feel hopeful up very hopeful and like a or something. He medical look good. I feel good. I can't believe I said that. Out Loud Ashville good. I felt like taking a shower and shaved legs and put on clean clothes and put no makeup enrolling. My hair felt like doing that. Felt like Don that and months. That is impressive. That is impressive. Shaving your legs is impressive alone makeup and hair now your next level as the child of a very southern woman raised around very southern woman. I will tell you this is important. My mother does not leave her house without her face. On the way Cindy is describing her process of self care today. This is how a highly functioning southern woman shows up when I left here from this morning and I was coming back daughter. Texts me and mom got the mail out and handed me envelope and it was a letter from Fun Da. I got contacted by two of them in one day in that been like because I hadn't heard from him. Bouma hurt by the time I needed to hear from them. Looked up at thank you God. Because that's what it was. I read my letter. You haven't read it a habit because we were like in the car and get the mail out around mouth and she ended up to me and I was looking at it and I looked at her and she's a won't you read it after because you're gonNA be upset a good way but you don't WanNa go there and be upset Like you're right stuck up my bag so read it when I go home. Let's it'll be good. I'm sure if there is one thing cindy loves it is her babies who are all grown up now and in their absence there is this massive void inside of Cindy that she was used to filling with drugs. Eleanor health is offering her an alternative human connection. So I was sitting out there waiting for my mom. And Bruce was lieven Radio magazine and he was walking out the door he was leaving any stopped me turn around and he looked at me. He looked at me again. His gave your agenda. She's coming skyway. If you WANNA go for Rod and little sure on jumped in the car and he ran a couple errands in studying even get out of the car just went with them and then got back here. A few minutes later mom pulled up On so yeah. We're running errands Honestly I think it was a secret count playmate the call me unless talk back when you talk to me a lot and then blessing he said before we closed the doors when we were in the parking lot he gave me something did hit a suggestion on something. He thought I should try for myself. Hurry Day it was something like writing Kim Jung down a goal. They can't do that ten things a day week or make it five. Thanks today and it can be. You're not on your phone as much as you were something. Little Little Sandy. Not Big You. Keep thinking bad Control the world little McKay About it well. I see that you did five things today. You did your hair makeup. You put clothes on put earings in and then you came here. That's five things to six okay of sex things. There you go girl you want. Buyer literature got a letter from your son. And you got a text from your daughter now. Today's been a great age. That you're rock-n-rollers earlier. I thought I was going to have a great day. Felt like it mellows. Having a great morning ended up having a great great day. I really appreciate it. We've talked a lot. The season about the concept of one day at a time but this is such a beautiful example of what that looks like in real when you've had such an endless string of terrible days a great day is a gift and a great great day that is next level. Eleanor health is helping people. Like Cindy to experience this. But they're also serving members. Were in a totally different place in their recovery. Next week we meet Isaac who encompasses so many of the themes that we've been grappling with throughout this season. He is committed to the twelve steps tethered to an AA community. But there's something that he is hiding from them. I like to go to a meeting. Still I network in do lot with these guys. I got really tight with these fellows in their help. Must be having said that though I still have to keep the issue must have oxygen you separate from them because they Kinda WanNa get judgmental They Wanna be like doing extra stuff you know. They don't really understand. If I removed at pieces of puzzle. I will probably not succeed like I have been for the last almost five years and I it makes me feel kinda dirty. You know like I'm hiding something that I soon be doing when really. I'M NOT STARE. The ones with the problem. How to looking at it but they make me feel like it's my problem. I don't run into that here. Last Day is a production of lemonade. Medium our producer Jackie. Danza guard Nicole is our associate producer in our assistant. Producer is Claire Jones. He Gins them. As our technical director rank. Steer was our editor our executive producer Jessica Cordova Kramer and our music is by Hannah Brown special. Thanks TO WESTWOOD OUR AD sales and distribution partner and day. Very very special. Thanks to everyone. We spoke to eleanor health. Nikki and I were especially grateful for the bottomless snacks. Coffee and girl scout cookies. Y'All really know how to make a couple of hundred ladies feel loved? You can find US online at lemmon onto media that's Lemon. Oughta like L. E. An Ad and you can find me at whittle. Stephanie if you like what you heard today tell your family and friends to listen and subscribe rate and review us on Apple spotify stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Stephanie Woodall's wax seal next week.
A Shooting in Alabama
"True crime grew contains disturbing content related to real life crimes. Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment. Listener discretion is advised. They say woman opened fire during a biology faculty meeting at the university of Alabama's Huntsville campus, Friday, three people were killed three others were injured. Sometimes totally before four PM. Call was made for the Chevy center for science and technology to the hospital police department university, police hustle. Police department responded secured to building and they found the victims officials say the suspected shooter was caught and arrested outside the Shelby center. A science building local media are reporting that the shooter was a faculty member all three of those killed and two of the injured were faculty members the third injured person was a staff member they say Amy Bishop had the ultimate grudge to bear against her fellow professors and began shooting them one by one. Welcome to true crime burry. I'm Jill, and I'm dick when you think of a mass shooter, you don't envision someone like Amy Bishop forty five years old female Harvard educated biology, professor and mother of four Amy Bishop would seem an unlikely killer. It was three pm on February twelfth two thousand ten and thirteen professors and staff members from the university of Alabama biology department met in a third floor conference room plant biologists Gopi Padilla passed out the printed Genda and sat beside Amy Bishop Amy had a hand gun in her purse, Amy was normally quite vocal in these meetings. But that day she was silent in brooding, she shot six of her co workers killing three before she washed up and called her husband for a ride home. The police would arrive before. He did. But Amy's homicidal rampage did not come out of nowhere investigations into her background would reveal a troubled person with a history of violence and probable cover up in her hometown. In Massachusetts today in a shooting in Alabama will delve into the life of a killer atypical, but just as devious and dangerous as any other at how many points in our life. Could she have been thwarted? And why wasn't she? I have a beer that actually comes from a brewery in Huntsville where Amy was employed at the university of Alabama Huntsville perfect. So the beer is called a Ludia. And it's brewed by straight to ale in Huntsville, it's an English old Dale, and these are beers it in the olden days were transferred into vats to age, hence, the name old male. They tend to be multi year somewhat fruity and the content can vary quite a bit. This particular wins eleven point five percent. So it's it's up there. This is a sipping beer it's a murky Brown color with a small head. It's not particularly attractive when you look at it. Nice, aroma. You get some grapes and some alcohol. The grapes are apparent in the taste is a clinic. Very very nice fathered by some maple. And then there's a little leather and toffee just a wonderful beer nice to sip warms you as you sit. If it great one to drink. So let's take it down to the quiet end. And maybe we'll share with people. I don't know. Well, let's see how it goes. We are friendly. So we might share we possibly could. And this is a good beer for this kind of day. It was kind of cool or at least what passes for cool here. There's a nice fire going in the fireplace. Everyone's kinda comfy. Good beer for this type of setting. All right. Let's open it. Okay. Okay. So Amy Bishop grew up in a nineteenth century Victorian home in Braintree, Massachusetts. Her mother Judy came from a New England family in Exeter, New Hampshire where her grandfather had owned a shoe factory duty that her husband so tier pup gloss at the New England school of art in Boston. He would later change his name to Samuel Bishop. He was raised by Greek immigrants in Somerville. Massachusetts join the airforce in nineteen fifty four in nineteen sixty four having been married. They moved to a city where Sam did graduate work at the university of Iowa. He was a fine arts student during the day in school and he worked as a janitor at night. Amy was born in nineteen sixty five and she was smart little girl may be a little bit on the OC decide there were stories of her kind of lining up her toys in a certain way, which really. Give you that OCD feeling we're she she likes to have things arranged neatly. Yeah. So the family then returned to Massachusetts after Sam graduated because he got a teaching job in the art department at northeastern they settled down in Braintree in nineteen sixty eight when aim us three and her brother Seth was born later that same year Amy was a pretty normal child, maybe a little neurotic she had asthma. And there were many trips to the ER when she was little her interest in science was at least in part due to her frequent interactions with doctors and nurses at the hospital. She began taking violin lessons in the third grade. And her brother Seth soon followed in her footsteps now, it's been said that there was an intense sibling rivalry between Amy and Seth. But on the other hand several people have also said that the two kids were very close. They were friends, but Amy had always resented. How easily Seth got along with people when they were at Braintree high school together, she was kind of the weird outcast girl. A year ahead of him who was kind of popular and things just seem to come easier to stuff now they were both shy kids but Seth like to go on adventures on his bike. He would leave Braintree with a pen and a map and explore around the surrounding communities. Sometimes Judy the mom would be driving miles from home and see Seth riding along on the side of the road. He was a curious young man who liked to find out how things worked. He was also unexpectedly self-confident for a small studious sky once in middle school. He was surrounded in the cafeteria by classmates who were bullying and teasing him for carrying a violin. Seth on his violin and began to play until the bullies Bechtel. Way he was a talented musician any it stopped their targeting by showing off his talent and his skill. Then a senior in high school. Seth began dating junior named Melissa Tae tro Mamie by that time, it moved to bust into attend northeastern did not approve this new girlfriend. She didn't seem to have a valid reason for a disapproval, but everyone knew how difficult Amy could be pleased or impress. Well. And some people also said that the family was kind of inpenetrable we get that impression closed off the research. We did that it was something that both parents had as a characteristic, right? So it's kinda hard to break in and be accepted. Right. When when Amy started dating the guy who became her husband, the bishops basically ignored him. Really? I did not know that they're so he would come over. And they just wouldn't speak to him. Is that what you're saying? You're. Wow. That is odd at the wedding the bishops basically Nord his whole family. That's strange. Why? I mean, he was in college with hurry seemed like he was okay about her age in their own way of doing things. Okay. Now in nineteen eighty-five Bishop family had been out, and they returned home to find a first floor window wide open the house had been broken into. So judy's wedding ring pair of silver cups, and some other valuables have been taken Judy wrote a letter to the local paper pleading for the return of the items which held set the mental value. They never did get returned. Sam went out and bought a twelve gauge shotgun Judy and Amy of jetted to having a gun in the house, but Sam insisted on keeping it unloaded anyway in his bedroom. Closet, and he kept a box of shells on his bedroom dresser. So he was. Ready for when those people broke in again now, maybe it's just me that would make me feel less safe. I mean, if you look at statistics, it might be a little less safe to have that in your house than to not have a gun in your house. You're looking at it from another angle that can kind of see if you've been the one broken into that you'd want to be able to have means of protecting your house in your family. We were broken into. And I was a kid. We had that experience. Also, when I was younger, and we didn't go out and buy a gun, but I can see his point of view. I know, but look how it ended up taking a risk there. Right. So it was a little over a year later. It was December sixth nineteen eighty six when the Braintree police received a nine one one call from Judy Bishop her daughter had shot her son. She said she told the police that she had witnessed the whole thing. And that it was an accident. Judy Bishop was waiting by the front door when police arrived at the house. Judy was known for being stoic in. Public, but she did appear strangely. Calm there were no tears, no hysteria. And she wasn't beside her son as he was dying. Seth was just eighteen years old, and he was face down on the linoleum floor of the kitchen. He had a whole pouring blood from the right side of his chest. Amy had run out of the house with the weapon that had killed him in Sam the dad was out at the mall shopping for Christmas presents so that morning. Judy had gotten up while it was still dark the rest of the family were still asleep upstairs when she drove to nearby Quincy where she stabled her horse. She usually spent a few hours exercising, the horse and cleaning out the stable the Braintree police station was under two miles from the Bishop house. So officers showed up within a couple of minutes and Judy met them at the front door with blood on her clothing in the kitchen where she pointed to them, she. He pointed for them to go there. Seth was bleeding to death or he was already dead possibly from a chest wound as paramedics tried to save. Seth Judy spoke to the police. She didn't stay by his side or plead with paramedics to save him. As a lot of mothers. Would she would say later that she knew he couldn't be saved? So sure, but how would you accept that? So quickly. That's your child. It's presented as her being rather cold, doesn't it it? Sure does. Yeah. Even the, you know, his dying or has died you'd wanna hold him, and you'd wanna hold onto hope to the very last second Judy. No. According to Judy Seth had just returned home from the grocery store, and she was in the kitchen with him when Amy came downstairs carrying that new shotgun. Judy told the police Amy said to me I have shell in the gun, and I don't know how to unload it. I told Amy not to point the gun at anybody. But as Amy swung the weapon around to show it to her brother, Judy said the gun fired. So it was a small kitchen and Amy had been standing close to her brother. So this shot hits Seth point blank. But when he collapsed Judy told police Amy took off this what she showed up at a local body shop around two thirty in the afternoon type Pettigrew, and his co worker Jeff dwell Rhenish up when they heard a loud banging the back door, so Pettigrew swing open the door and his chest bumped, right. Into the end of pump action shotgun so Amy's holding it up aimed right at him. Jeff Joel stood next to him. So for minute. They thought it was a hold up because these two guys had recently robbed in ATM, and they hit twenty five thousand dollars stashed inside the shop. It's a strange coincidence, isn't it? So they're thinking that Amy might have been after the money. Well, yeah. Because they were feeling very paranoid. Anyway, where? Yeah, you get this hall, and they're trying to get a divided up and stuff, and boom, here's the door. Bang open and news is woman pointing the shotgun. Adam. That'd be rather paranoid. So many had on a blue winter coat with gray sweatpants and white sneakers. But no socks she seemed pretty calm for someone who had just shot her own brother. Although they obviously didn't know that she had done that. But she didn't seem terribly excited or stress. She's a lot like her mom, I guess, so she had dry eyes and the and she was staring at the men. She said put your hands up. I need a car and shoes looking around nervously. According to these guys, but kept a steady grip on the gun. Give me your keys. I just got in a fight with my husband. And he's trying to hurt me. I have to get out of here. He's going to kill me. You have to give me a car. She said already hear stories little different than what actually happened. It's a totally different story than reality. Totally. So the two guys ran away and they hid the police had already been called it would turn out because Amy had tried to carjack a driver before she ran into these guys. But the driver took off race to her nearby home and called nine one one and it would turn out. There was more than one person that she tried to carjack that day. So to twenty two Braintree police officers were rushing toward the scene. This was before the call came in from Judy Bishop about the shooting these other people that Amy had tried to carjack and threaten right, right? So is officers speeding to the Bishop home. Others begin hunt for the woman running loose with the shotgun. Turns out that after Pettigrew Doyle ran away Amy at walked toward another nearby business village news, which is a newspaper distribution center. She was weaving through parked cars in the latte with a shotgun held against your chest. Just like a railing baby. And onlooker said that she looked days Tim green who was only seventeen was working loading newspapers onto a truck. He turned around at Amy had the gun pointed directly at him. Do you have a car she asked and in a panic Tim yelled inside to the other kids that were working there? Hey this girl needs a car. And the only response he got from one of the kids was no fucking way. Not a chance. Yep. So these co workers were all crouched behind stacks of newspapers, she's threatening. All these people's lives pointing the gun at him. Yeah. You don't do that. So Boston Globe truck pulled into the lot just is Braintree. Police. Cruisers did Tim and his co workers shouted out. She's right there. She has a gun Braintree? Police officer run solemnity was break. Solar Meany Braintree. Police officer Ron Sola Meany was the first despite Amy Bishop out of the corner of his eye as she was making her way toward the trucks. So the officer exited his cruiser and made his way toward her with his gun drawn held in his right hand down by his holster. And is he approached Amy she just stared at him and she refused to lower her gun. She kept both her hands on the shotgun as he was talking to her and trying to convince her to drop the gun. So he ordered her to drop it. But she just stared at him. Then he tried softening. His tone and said look hun. Why don't you put that down and come with me over to the cruiser? We can straighten this all out if this was somebody else. I don't think they'd be treated this way. She's lucky she wasn't shot dead right on site. I mean, the officers had the right then to shoot her. Absolutely. Yes. She wouldn't put the gun down. That's true. But she's there. I say Caucasian women now. I mean, I think you have to because there's no other way to look at it. Really? I'm not gonna get into the whole thing. But we know that she was treated with kid gloves right from the start. Yeah. So just at that exact time another Braintree. Police officer arrived officer Murphy move, slowly from the other side of the building. So Amy wouldn't see him. And so the Meany did Sam and he tried to keep Amy's is on himself. So Murphy jumped up on the back of a news truck tried to see which would be the most successful way to grab the shotgun. From her without a going off. Jumped in the back of the truck to about five feet behind her pulled out his gun pointed at the back of her head drop, it he told her, but Amy didn't move after third and final command Murphy moved in behind her and grabbed the end of the shotgun. She loosened to grip and the weapon fell to the ground and Murphy, grab the gun as Sola Meany health. Amy's Rhys gun was loaded. Murphy padded Amy down in found another shot gun show in her pocket. This is very damning. And at this point in the story. We're thinking this girl's gonna do some time. She shot and killed your brother, and she's pointed the weapon at other people and fleeing is always seen as a sign of guilt. Wouldn't you think she'd be facing charges? I would so Judy Bishop head enough although in Braintree to help her daughter, she was actually kind of powerful in the local political scene. Judy served on the town committee, which was an elective. Legislative panel of two hundred and forty people who had control over how the town spent its money. So that could give you some power and that included how much money was funneled into the police department. I can sort of see that this is a huge panel. It was but she was kind of a leader type. She was outspoken. So I think it's significant could be and more significant maybe is that she was also very close to the police chief John polio threats much more significant there were actually some rumors that she in police were having an unfair. So she put a call into the chief before the ambulance had even arrived to pick up. Seth what do you think of that? I think that she in polio were probably intimate stuff. We've read states that. He was a womanizer. Then he had a few affairs. And there is an implication. Not as strongly stated as with polio. There's an intimation that Judy was also popular with some people with men, and she was reasonably attractive more. So than her daughter. I really haven't seen any pictures of her. But that's what I've read in different people statements description. He added she was kind of a babe. Yeah. So I think that the rumors of the affair probably true. And that's what helped it Amy released. So to forty five officer Sola Amini drove Amy to the Braintree police station per in handcuffs. Amy, volunteer that she'd had an argument with her father prior to the shooting. Sola meaty didn't ask you to elaborate on the statement. He wanted to get her into a booking room for an interrogation. He was pretty shaken up himself. You just realizing how close he had come to being shot, and she's holding this gun big city swat man or something, you know, this is an unusual experience for him in Braintree. Yeah. But he did read her Miranda rights, and she said that she had been alone in the house, and after her mother had left for the stable cer- father and brother hit each gone out separately. So she stated that she loaded the shotgun because she'd been worried about robbers coming back to the house. She said that Seth had taught her how to load the weapon, but not how to unload it. So she had loaded several shells into the gun. But as she was trying to figure out how to remove them. She accidentally fired a shot shattering a mirror and blowing a hole in her bedroom wall when she heard Seth come home. She went downstairs and asked him to help her unload. It an issue turn the shotgun. Went off. She was asked if she shot her brother on purpose, and she denied it. She said, no. But she did tell the police that are father had left the house that morning after a family spat and later in SAM's interview, he described it as just a disagreement with Amy over a comment that she had made. Aid very vague, very he left the house around eleven thirty AM he said to shop for Christmas presents at the nearby mall. Now, pay attention to this timeframe because if you believe like I do that Judy was home at eleven thirty or twelve and the father left at eleven thirty. She really wasn't alone for a period of time where she would have been nervous about robbers which was her claim, right? And we don't have any evidence that this had happened previously. I'm sure there were times when Avia been alone in the house that she go and load the shotgun. Each time, she's an adult. She's not a little kid. Yeah. So it's a little strange guests, but it gets stranger certainly does Amy was ordered to be released by the chief of police. John polio. He called the station in order that she'd be released into her mother's custody. This was after mom had called polio because she called him right away. Pro him right away and actually stormed into the. Police station. So this decision to that. She would be released in by this custody did not go over well with the Braintree police officers who had been exposed to the loaded gun. So Amy wasn't fingerprinted or photographed and no detective is even given a chance to interrogator. The case was tossed even the initial Braintree. Police reports were written under the heading accidental shooting that determination had been made a fischel before any investigation had even taken place. Judy Bishop was heard telling police officer that afternoon, I just lost one child. I am not going to lose. Both Sam finally rushed to the hospital. And was there a little after three pm when Seth was pronounced dead. When Amy was released from the police station, Judy and Sam took her home due to the highly emotional state of Amy Bishop it had generally been impossible to question her while she was that the brain. Police department is what a police report read. So Amy was released to the custody of her parents and further investigation was supposedly going to follow. Now. Meanwhile, while the family have been out of the house, some neighbors come over and wash blood from the kitchen floor, supposedly, so the family wouldn't have to deal with. I'm sure that was their intention, but the police should have never let that happen. The crime scene unit. Detectives had discovered something that the first responders said missed the twelve gauge shotgun had actually been fired three times a blast had ripped through the wall and Amy's bedroom between her bed in the night table and that shot had broken. Amir a lamp on the table. Amy had apparently tried to hide that whole with a band-aid tin box into book cover. There was also a spent shell on the floor that they recovered a box of twenty one shells was taken in as evidence from Judy in SAM's bedroom, where the gun had been kept on locked the police it inexplicably vacated the crime scene and left it in the care of a neighbor. According to one of the police reports when? It came to this shooting. Nothing was really making sense, including the way that the reports were written that state police said there wasn't any need for trooper to respond, and the fact that Amy Bishop was allowed to go home that very night. It's all very suspicious. It's terrible. So Seth bishops initial cause of death was due to a ruptured a order from the gunshot wound. It's not a good blood vessel to rupture. Now, you have to be like immediately doing surgery to him any chance you'll bleed out. Boom. Yes. So it seven PM that day. An autopsy was performed in the presence of the Braintree police detective and the autopsy concluded that Seth Bishop had been shot from very close range and that the shot ripped from the front to the back. He had obviously lost too much blood to have survived and the coroner made his ruling cause of death was accidental pending police investigation which went along with the police reports every one of the reports to that point listed under the title incident accidental shooting. Okay. So let's review. Ok three shots. From a shotgun were fired in a suburban home by disturbed woman who then attempted to carjack several people there were three bullet holes one hidden in her bedroom. One in the ceiling of the kitchen and one in her younger brother's chest still the incident was described as exit Antle without any investigation. Right. And the other thing about this is that this shotgun is a Mossberg shotgun. That's the maker. And you need to have a fair amount of pull on the trigger to get it to fire. So the likelihood of being fired accidentally it's pretty small you really need to exert some pressure. Make go off to click it or whatever to get the neck shell in. So if you've accidentally shot at once, there's not another one ready to shoot unless you do it on purpose, nor you have to racket, right? That is the word that objects spent showcase and puts another bullet ready to fire. So she did that at least twice. So we've seen it in the movies right with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Somebody strolling around firing a gun racking it firing again. Basically we've seen that in a quiet place in bird bucks to write. It does make people look bad ass when they do that. Sure. Does. But the the point is this is not. Not a gun that gets accidents fired. Which is what the bishops were claiming that it it just went off without even finger on the trigger. Right. Yeah. Well, also, Amy was released after her mother demanded it and the chief. Agreed. According to the detective who was trying to interview Amy with her consent. Judy stormed right into the booking room. And she said Amy shut up right now don't say another word. We are getting out of here. You are coming home with me. She's not answering any more questions. She's coming home with me. She's leaving here tonight. So she was boss lady. Ben, you're the police knew that Judy had some political pull, but no one had ever stormed into a booking room before. And this woman your daughter Amy at shot someone dead, then tried to carjack people. But probably most appalling, she pointed a loaded shotgun at Braintree police officers, and yet she's still got to walk out of the station without even having a mugshot taken. So the cops believed that polio was either crazy or corrupt. Sometimes these things are combination. So Norfolk county district attorney Bill Delahunt would make the ultimate decision in the case Delahunt had experienced investigators in Massachusetts state police working for him. And one of these troopers was detective, Brian how how is the trip around call that December night, and he would later say that an officer called him and said, Brian we haven't eighteen year old dead here in Braintree looks like an accidental shooting. We can take care of the reports. I think we got this one. Wow. That was an unusual move. It was the district. Attorney would make the final decision on whether or not a homicide had been committed in the bishop's kitchen some Braintree. Cops felt how should have showed up regardless of what the small town cops were telling him putting two later. Testimony phone calls were exchanged between chief polio. And the prosecutors in Norfolk county, and Brian how was told that there was no need to interrupt his Saturday in light of the nature of the crime accidental. How was told he would not be responding to the secured primesee, which let's remember it was only secured by a neighbor that was cleaning up the blood. You really can't call that a secured crime-scene any stretch. Well, they didn't even press. They didn't even process the crime scene before the neighbors came by and cleaned up. The blood one officer close to the family even stopped by if he could pick up any food for them. The press was kept away from the story and the big. For papers, the Boston Globe. And the Boston Herald never reported this death at all Braintree police detective, Michael Carey, his boss kept in Theodore Bucher and state police trooper Brian how did not visit the Bishop home until December seventeen and that's eleven days after Seth was killed. So those eleven days would have given the bishops plenty of time to get their story straight. They all said that their house was very soundproof. And that was their explanation for why the first shotgun blast that Amy fired in her bedroom wasn't heard by Judy. But the that's a mistake. Anyway, this is an old home certainly wasn't soundproof relatively soundproof. I wouldn't think to the point where you couldn't hear a shotgun. Blance a noisy gun, plus a mirror broke. That's loud too. So, but anyway, that's the explanation for why Seth and Judy didn't hear anything when the first drive can blasted fired an accidental shooting was just repeated over and over in these conversations, right? And no one was ever questioned about the family spat that have been mentioned on the afternoon of the shooting. Now, they never even asked Amy why she fled the home with her coat on. She didn't have a coat on. I wouldn't think before why she put on a coat and leave. Good question some crime scene. Investigators didn't even bother to measure the trajectory of the shots to see if Amy's version matched the forensic evidence. The bullet hole in the ceiling of the kitchen separate from the shot that hit Seth was never mentioned in the report at all. There was no evidence collected. No fingerprints taken and the shotgun. Even was returned to the family when they news release that same day. Holy cow. I know it's really amazing. So Amy claimed not to remember anything between the time when the gun off in the kitchen, and when her mother arrived pick her up at the police station. So she claimed that she was not aware that she had shot her brother when she fled her home. I just can't believe that this whole thing is just stretching ability. How can you not know you shot your brother point blank? How can you not know? And that's something that she seems to us when she gets into trouble is all I just don't remember years later when she killed her co workers at the university of Alabama Huntsville, she said, I don't remember. Right. And there really isn't any psychiatric diagnosis to make that believable. No, Amy moved on with their life graduating from northeastern enrolling in the PHD program in genetics at Harvard. She very rarely talked about Seth Amy met, Jim Anderson. Another student at northeastern in. Campus group for playing dungeons and dragons and other role playing games. So after they dated for a few years. They did get married in nineteen eighty nine in nineteen Ninety-one Amy gave birth lily who was followed by two more, daughters thea and fade DRA friends, describe Amy as a loving, high strung mom, she found the PHD program, very difficult, and she didn't perform as well at Harvard as she had northeastern but in nineteen ninety three after revising her thesis. She did get her degree. Now. There's some talk that she might not have deserve to get that degree bureau. A lot of discussion when all this shit happened at the university of Alabama that she hadn't been a good candidate for a PHD and pros should not have been awarded that degree. But you know, it's kind of hindsight stuff. Well, I guess whatever. The thing is she did. In fact, get a degree. She did. So then in nineteen Ninety-three while she's doing some post doctoral work, she and her husband. Jim was suspects and letterbomb case Paul Rosenberg who is a Harvard Medical School professor and physician at children's hospital in Boston had received a package containing two pipe bombs failed to explode when they failed to explode because this is when the Yuna bomber was active and people are being told, basically, if you get suspicious packages, either don't open or open them in not the usual way, open them. I mean, you get a package just peel paper off and open it up so L thinking it triggers. The the thing the package triggers the bombs they were able to go off. They would yell out so Rosenberg panic carefully being aware of the Yuna bomber had slipped open the sides g ended it that way. So he was just a lucky guy. Oh shit. Yeah. I had. I just thought they were faulty bombs. I didn't realize that. So that is attempted murder was. Yeah, we'll Rosenberg had been AB supervisor at the children's hospital in neurobiology lab. Amy hit big concerned about receiving a negative evaluation from him. She resigned from her position at the hospital because Rosenberg felt that she could not meet the standards required for the work. According to documents based on witness interviews, she was upset and on the verge of a nervous breakdown because of this. So it's something that she could do it was a big deal to her. Now prior to the attempted bombing. Jim reportedly had told a witness that he wanted to shoot stab or strangle Rosenberg he denied that he'd ever threatened him though, the investigation focused on Amy, and Jim, but it closed without charges being filed due to a lack of evidence during the investigation they both refuse to. Cooperate with investigators refused to open their door for searches of their home and refused to take polygraph tests. Now, I don't know why they didn't have a warrant to search their home. They must not have had enough evidence. No, they didn't. They did have a lot of circumstantial evidence that would link the bishops to the letter bun, but they apparently didn't have enough to get a warrant charging. I really can't blame anyone for not allowing someone to search your home or take a polygraph test where you're innocent or guilty. You're just opening yourself up to something. But it was apparently looked on very suspiciously that they wouldn't allow that. Sure. I would think that they would at least have cooperated more with investigators if they were innocent. Well, let's tell you would look at it. Yeah. But we're we're separated from that sheriff we weren't in the middle of it. Now, the chief federal prosecutor in Boston did review the case after the Alabama shooting, but decide. That Amy would not be charged in the bombing attempt. And this case remains unsolved. Technically US, Dr Rosenberg he will tell you his suspicions. Oh, absolutely. When we take a short break here. So we can talk about our sponsors. 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I really appreciate is that I can turn on the outdoor lights from wherever I am to make the house look occupied were away, and it's all controlled from my ADT app or from the sound of our voices again with AT twenty four seven protection also AT does the installation and the configuration of your system. So no worries there either. So AD key ADT can set up your home with multiple smart home devices in security features like indoor and outdoor cameras lacks lights garage door control even video doorbells. Visit ADT dot com slash smart to learn more about how ADT can design and install secure smart home, just for you. That's ADT dot com slash smart. Let's head to two thousand one Amy had a baby boy and she named him. Seth most of her colleagues weren't aware of the significance of that name one friend would recall that she knew her when she was pregnant, but nothing was ever mentioned about Seth. She said imagine having a whole conversation about baby names. Meanwhile, Amy was sidestepping the fact that she was going to name her baby. After her brother who she had killed Amy sunset was born on. What would have been her brother's thirty third birthday as well. So that's kind of odd strange coincidence creepy yard. She couldn't have planned that way. I don't think it was a scheduled C-section choose. So any also fancied herself, novelist. Did you know that any she was in a writer scrape though, she'd wrote ended up writing three novels none of which were ever published. Amy, the book's protagonists were Greek heritage dreamt of careers in science and are haunted by the death of child. They Wentz knew. For several of characters procreation offered symbolic redemption. Well, yeah. And that would be said about her having four children it was kind of like creating life because she'd taken life wrote plus she had three daughters on the really wanted to son. So she got pregnant again trying to replace her brother almost it's odd. Yeah. It was a Saturday morning in two thousand two when Amy Jim in their kids went for breakfast at a crowded, I have restaurant in Peabody Massachussetts when they requested a booster seat for Seth a waitress told them that the last one had just been given to another family, and this is when Amy became very angry and kind of went into a rage. She went to the table of the other family, which was just a woman in her kids, and she shrieked I am Dr Amy Bishop over and over a manager asked Amy to leave the restaurant and she did. But this was only after she went back to the woman with the booster seat and hit on the head pretty hard Amy was arrested. But again, the charges were dropped. That's that's an interesting episode. This gives you some look into her persona. Well, when people would say, she was under a lot of stress, but nobody does. The kept saying that. Yeah. I know she got her doctorate and ended up doing a fair amount of postdoctoral studies before she got hired by the university of Alabama. So I I would imagine a lot of pressure. Once he finished you degree. You wanna get hired by a university. If you're pursuing that track and get tenure track. So you can have a less stressful life. He well, it significant that Amy was pretty much the sole breadwinner in this family Jim had never gone on for his advanced degree any worked only sporadically often in laboratory jobs that he got with Amy's help. In one of her novels eastern, Boston. The protagonist Elizabeth is married to Jack a computer programmer who can't hold a job and ends up working at a radio shack. She describes him in the book as ambition challenge in flaccid bed. Loving loser. Amy once told one of her Alabama colleagues that her husband Jim was just too smart to work. Now, I'm thinking that probably had kind of a circus -tic tilt to it. I'm not sure I think this kind of Oto by a graphical. Oh, well that for sure. But I mean, her comment on him being too smart to work sounds like it probably had some sarcasm to. Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean that adds to pressure. She the breadwinner, she has four little kids and a husband that maybe wasn't allowed to help around the house either. Some men are like that. I know you're not. But there are men like that probably wasn't now she finally did get hired at the university of Alabama in Huntsville in two thousand three this is ten years after she received to a while. It's quite some time. So she accepted a tenure track position T E N URI if Sunday like ten year tenure, okay? Ten years important means lifetime job security. If you get tenured, you're in you're hired for life. Basically, kinda do whatever you want. If you have gaining Glenn sabbaticals. It can teach what you want. Yeah. And of a strange thing because they don't have that in other professions note. So the residents of the street where they lived finally remember the day, the family left, they were happy because while the kids weren't bed Amy was universally disliked. And I mean universal. I couldn't find any reference to anybody in that neighborhood that liked now she was difficult to get along with in that neighborhood. So there you hall pulled away the neighbors came out of their houses and be candid cheer. And one of the kids yelled out ding Dong, the which is dead. And then everybody started singing the song from the wizard of us and one family suggested that they have a pizza party to celebrate the bishop's departure. So it's funny. But it's also sad especially for Amy's kits. Hopefully hear it all now. But the overall feeling about her mom had to be known to the older kids at least. Oh, yeah. So the university of Alabama Huntsville college administrators were really excited to have a scientist with a Harvard degree. So they were so excited. In fact, they never bothered to verify the information on her CV a lot of that. Yeah. A lot of it was inaccurate accurate. That's a nice way. Putting she lied. She claimed that she had worked in a lab run by researcher Bruce temple for three years should actually only been there for a year. She also exaggerated her exp. -perience of Beth Israel Deaconess hospital where she had feuded with Dr Hugo Gonzales Suratis fellowship there lasted less than a year and was not renewed. And she claimed on her resume that she worked there from two thousand to two thousand three technically that's true but misleading she didn't list the professors that you'd worked with on her resume is context either. So well, all the references. She gave were people other than those. She had worked with or for always read flack. But why didn't they pick that up? Why didn't they ask her for peer references? They were just kind of bamboozled by the Harvard degree you. Now, they were kind of Austria reminds me of Palo much Arini. It does you're looking at the celebrity value. Right. Exactly to have faculty member who's a Harvard. PHD? Exactly. I don't know if they got a lot of them there. They were becoming more and more vestige. Down there. But they weren't the same as the places in Boston. No, they weren't. For someone who wanted tenure so badly. Amy didn't focus enough on publishing, and that's the old maxim publisher parish, right? You got to crank out the works jail. Even as an undergrad. Now. I was surprised to see you need to get published. Yeah. I'm looking at this stuff with our kids going through college and thinking I'm glad I've already done that. Now, it's a lot of pressure you're up. Now, she did publish an annual article in two thousand four two thousand five in two thousand six but then she went unpublished for three years. This was a serious problem because there was no explanation for this. And it was going to be used against her. And she had to know that she was very familiar with academia now, Amy complained. That publishing was a cookie cutter approach to science. But of course, her bosses did not share that opinion at all on whether you agree with that or not I mean. Doesn't change the fact that you need to publish exactly. So in two thousand nine she began to write again after three years of not. And I think during those three years she and her husband were involved in patenting, a Petri dish something. Yeah. Something showed some promise. But some of the things they did were just kind of wacky. Correct. But she did get a two hundred thousand dollar grant from the NIH national institutes of health and this led to a paper being published in the period view journal of neuro chemistry that journal would publish another Amy Bishop of paper the same year these two high quality papers the third paper. She wrote in two thousand nine should have raised some concerns. The title of the paper was affects selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors on motor neurons survival. Now, the paper listed as authors. Anderson LB Anderson, PB and. Jason TB Bishop bay Anderson Jay, and it was printed in the international journal of general medicine now, this is a journal this basically vanity press, it's not a peer review journal. But apparently, no one at the school. It was I'd that the paper was written by four people named Anderson. And if they had checked they would've figured out that the four authors initials match the name of Amy's husband three daughters. So paper listed, James Anderson. And the kids employs of Cherokee lab systems in Huntsville, which was her husband's company never really got off the ground. It didn't most professors in any bishops position published far more research papers and in peer review journals. That's just expected. Absolutely. So falling behind and becoming very desperate to improve chances tenure. She tried to pass off research conducted in her home with her family. This is cheating. There's no other word for it. And by then Amy was lobbying fulltime for tenure. She had begun the process of submitting the university's prepared application package. Detailing her teaching research publishing institutional even community accomplishments. So at the university of Alabama Huntsville whence he worked for five years in the associate professor program. There is a five step process toward achieving tenure it began with a departmental review. And then it was turned over to a college level tenure committee review from there went to a university review board and finally the provost. So if a tenure track professor was not granted tenure after six years the university's gonna let the professor go job. You lose your job. A month before the tenure list was made public Amy wrote a press release about a science experiment conducted her family's backyard, and this was picked up by university student newspaper running under the headline, you AH launches space experiment. So this is self promotion, and it really failed kind of backfired actually did. In April two thousand nine she learned that her tenure head been denied. And she was livid. She was not going to take no for an answer. So she filed an appeal and a complaint then she began to beg her colleagues at the university for help. Dr. Deborah Moriarty dean of the graduate school thought. Amy was her friend that friendship, though, became very strained when Amy began to push her to help her lobby to reverse the tenure decision. It was the same story with another psychology professor who had joined you AH with Amy in two thousand three his name was Eric seaman. He would recall how ABC with rage when he ran into her on the last day of the spring semester. The tenure listed been released. His name was on the list. But Amy bishop's was not. She went into kind of tirades reading these people are against me. She sounded very paranoid and not completely. Well. She told another faculty member in her department that she was better than him. It was very easy to provoke her into get her going and some of her colleagues liked to share crazy Amy stories over drinks after work and most of the classes, she taught her students didn't like her most of them. There were some that did resume that the, but the overwhelming consensus was that she was a poor teacher. Yes. Very impatient. One day in early two thousand ten Amy drove to the university in parked in front of the administration building sitting in her car. She called the office of the president and announced her plan to come upstairs to discuss her case for tenure. She was told that president Williams wouldn't meet with her and that she should not even enter the building. According to an F it written by Amy in prison. She then saw Williams and the provost hurriedly leaving the building with a police escort, Amy telephoned, her colleague, Deborah Moriarty and said they act like I'm going to walk in and shoot somebody. Well, let's hear it would seem to me if that's true, the president provost needed a police escort to get them out of the building that Amy shouldn't have been there. She should have been right away. Scored it off campus in through that worried about safety. Yeah. It's true. I mean, I don't know. It's a difficult spot because. You also might be afraid that the more you tell her to stay away the more you do like that. You might provoke are more maker more angry in how secure is a college campus or how secure was it at the time. More importantly that. If you tell her she's not allowed there is that really going to do anything. I think if you simply tell her she's not allowed and she should leave. It's going to be sufficient, but it just seems if they're that worried about their own safety that should have communicated that to the rest of the campus in taking steps to make sure that Amy couldn't cause any harm. I totally agree. But I don't know if it would have been that easy to prevent her anyway, but I do agree with what you're saying. So on Friday February twelfth two thousand ten Hemi bishops first class began at ten twenty in the morning. This was anatomy and physiology. Her students didn't notice anything stranger than usual about their professor other than she seemed a little more distant and distracted at that time that our next class was introduction neuroscience that began at eleven thirty. This was your favorite class and the students in that class that she taught lighter enough to send a petition signed by all of them to try and save her job. So she could effectively teach. I'm just thinking why did the students even know did she make a she must have made a plea to them to help her is that appropriate. I don't know. I'm not in that type of field. Amy seem distracted and she was described as having a strange look on her face. And she announced that she would end class early. But she didn't ran his full length ammos wonder, if she liked teaching the beginners better because we're talking about introduction to neuroscience. Maybe they kind of treated her with the respect that she thought she deserved more than the older students would or the more experienced Deutz possibility because I think she liked to be looked upon his better than everyone else. She thought she was. Yeah. She attended a biology department faculty meeting that afternoon, which was held on the third floor of the Shelby center for science and technology, which houses the UA Huntsville biology and mathematics departments. She sat quietly at the meeting for thirty or forty minutes before she pulled out a nine millimeter handgun just before four PM. And that's according to a faculty. Member Joseph ING, an associate professor who witnessed the shooting said she got up suddenly took out a gun and started shooting at each one of us. She started with the woman closest to her then went right down the row shooting each of targets in the head white methodical, according to Deborah Moriarty who attended the meeting and survived. This wasn't a random shooting around the room. This was execution style. Those who were shot were on one side of the oval table that was used during the meeting and the five people on the other side, including ING immediately dropped to the floor after Amy had fired several rounds Moriarty said that Amy pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger. But there was only a click so her gun either jammed or ran out of munition Deborah described Amy as initially appearing angry and then following the apparent weapon. Malfunction? She looked perplexed. Ing said Deborah than. Tempted to stop Amy by approaching her and asking her to stop, and then helped the other survivors push Amy out of the room, and then they blocked the door. But if she still had bullets she probably could have shut them through the door. I don't know what the door was made of fear. Maybe she wasn't thinking about that. But this Deborah was quite brave. A lot of field called her a hero. She she grabbed it Amy and try to get her out of there, realizing that the gun could go off anytime she did in Amy would have killed her. She would have so the murder weapon that was used was a nine millimeter handgun, and it was founded a bathroom on the second floor of the building. So Amy didn't have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. And she was arrested a few minutes later outside of the building shortly after her arrest. She was quoted as saying it didn't happen. There's no way when asked about the deaths of recolonize she said, there's no way they're still alive. So what do you think do you? Do you think that that is acting? So she can use an insanity defense later think she's using that. But there could be a possibility. I mean, she's just been through a pretty traumatic event. And maybe she has temporary 'em nesia temporary. I mean, it was definitely planned your she didn't just have that gun in her purse for no reason. No, she didn't. So let's talk a little bit about her victims three were killed. The murder victims were Gopi Padilla Adrienne Johnson and Maria Ragland Davis Padilla left a teaching job at Michigan tech university in two thousand and became the chairman of the biology department at the university of Alabama in Huntsville now, he had actually voted to give Amy Bishop for tenure. So he was one of the good guys. If you look at it for maybe point of you. Yeah. And I think that her lawyers tried to suggest that she wasn't angry over ten year. And that wasn't why she was doing the killings because why would she have shut someone who voted for her? If you using insanity defense. Right, right. So Padilla left behind a wife and two daughters. Atrial Johnson was an associate biology professor working in cell biology in nutritional physiology research, but for years, Dr Johnson also gave his time to teach the boy scouts. He had two sons and he volunteered with their troupe. He actually won several awards for his work with young people an associate in the biology department wrote in his obituary, the doctor Johnson was always upbeat. And he was someone who always went out of his way to make you feel. Welcome maria. Raglan Davis was an associate biology professor who had a lot of new ideas and she had secured grants for her research. Dr raglan Davis was described as one of the university's most promising faculty members she left behind a husband and three children. So these people that she killed. We're good people who are contributing positively to society, just regular people. Yeah. Maybe a little more productive more productive than I am. I'd say. Achievers they're achievers. They were achievers. There were I think when she was shooting. She was just going to walk down one side of the table backup. The other side. Point that way. Yeah. I think it was very planned out your so it wasn't that those were specifically fingered by her just happened in her mind. This was how she's gonna do the shooting, and they were the ones that were right there in the way. I would argue she was probably angry with everyone because they weren't working as hard as she would want to save her and get her tenure in helper think so so emergency workers raised into the conference room, and it was just covered with blood. Deborah Maury already was crying. She described how meticulously Amy was shooting. Everyone mentioned the look on Amy's face issues shooting. How her face was fixed with rage? And she seemed to know how to handle the gun very well. And she certainly knew enough to hide it. That's another thing. That would go against insanity is she went and hid that gun and took off her bloody jacket. Right, right. So police soon learned that after the massacre she'd run down a flight of stairs into. Second-floor ladies bathroom and in the bathroom. She stashed the gun in a trash can under the blood-soaked plaid jacket that should warn class that day, then she crumpled paper towels threw them on top. And then she calmly walked into a classroom and asked to borrow someone cell phone, and that makes it seem very ah those Nolde cold indeed. So Shaun Tait one of the students gave her his phone. They hadn't heard the gunshots above them. They may call. Their husband said, I'm done pick me up. So it's four o'clock little after police radios continued to broadcast bolo beyond the lookout for female shooter, Dr Amy Bishop campus police racing around the campus and gave orders to student and faculty there at least seventy five hundred people on campus, and they didn't want any of them to confront the gun woman. Who is at large. The names of the wounded were not immediately released to the public, but students would learn that Dr Joseph Lahey, professor of micro-biology was actually in critical condition. So was Stephanie monta Chiel, though, a staff assistant described as the department den mother who nurtured both staff and students Dr Luis Cruz Veira survived a gunshot wound to his chest. But he was conscious and coherent, and he was described as being very angry. Just got shot. Yeah. But anger is always your first reactor colleague. Yeah. True. So police interviewed Amy's husband Jim after had been determined that she had called him, and he denied any knowledge of a plan to shoot a co workers, and he wasn't charged with the crime. But a neighbor revealed later that he had seen the couple leaving their home with duffel bags on the Friday morning prior to the shooting. Amy borrowed the gun. She used in the shooting and Jim admitted that he had taken her do an indoor shooting range prior to the killings. So what's that all about chef I trust that guy? I don't if he was part of this bombing plot. I am convinced you as part of that bombing play. He was with her all the time. And he knew what she was thinking and feeling that she was very verbal about our feelings. So I kind of feel like he got away with something here I do too shortly after Amy's arrest people at the university's biology department expressed concern to police that she had booby-trapped the science building with a herpes bomb intended to spread the virus. She had previously worked with the herpes virus while completing her postdoctoral studies and one of the novel. She wrote described the spread of a virus similar to herpes throughout the world causing pregnant women to miscarry, but the police had already searched. That building and all they found was the handgun and her bloody jacket. But I just wonder she must have said some things about it for people to wonder about that would think. So police obtained a ward within hours of the shooting they seized Amy bishop's, computer at work. They searched the family home. As Jim Anderson set wondering why he was being detained daughter lily who is eighteen and a student there took her siblings to a neighbor's house. It's awfully sad for the children as well. To to me. That's the saddest part. I don't know. The saddest part to me are the people who were killed. But either way it's both very set situations for everybody in the weeks after the Alabama shootings. Several former colleagues and neighbors came forward and described various altercations with Amy mostly over very trivial matters. Jimmy Anderson senior Amy's father in law told a reporter that he had seen the devil in her eyes. So I don't know how that relationship was it doesn't sound great. Will they didn't start off? Great. No, that's true. Investigators in the media soon learned about Amy's history of violence, cold cases, are difficult and the shooting of Seth was especially difficult because it hadn't been treated as a crime when it happened. Neither the Braintree police nor the state police had really done an investigation. None of the physical evidence said even been taken there were a few crime scene photographs but the Bishop house. Had not been treated as a crime scene. Also, the integrity of the scene had been compromised by the neighbors who win over and cleaned up the blood, then there was another problem by two thousand ten the statute of limitations had expired, and any of the crimes that Amy might have been charged with for confronting the people at the Ford dealership in the police with a gun. So the only crime that had no statute of limitations was murder, of course. But prosecutors would have to prove that she intentionally killed her brother with really no physical evidence has been gathered in one of the pictures taken in her bedroom. There was a copy of National Enquirer that was seen on the floor and someone in the DA's office ordered that issue from the library of congress and investigators sauve that a lot of it was devoted to the murder of the parents of Patrick Duffy who was an actor on the TV show. Dallas too young assailants had killed his parents in a Montana bar that they. Owned and they'd used a shotgun and fled the scene using the same gun to try and steal a getaway car. So investigators wondered if Amy had maybe read that article and kind of seen it as a how to guide. William Keating who was the DA at the time suggested that the photograph could be used to prove her intent to kill Seth. That's kind of a long shot too. Sure. Russa in on the one hand, you can look at that and say well that kind of inspired her. Who knows that could be totally coincidental. Your. In April two thousand ten investigators opened an inquest into Seth staff. Twenty witnesses appeared in court in Quincy, Massachusetts, Tom Pettigrew. One of the mechanics who'd seen Amy the Dinger Ford dealership described her as holding the shotgun and telling him to hold his hands up north of Sola mini recalled how stranger was to hear Judy Bishop as for chief polio by his first name. He said I'd never heard anyone call him. John Kenneth Brady who is a sergeant in the station that day testified that he to it her Judy S for the chief James Sullivan, the Lieutenant who questioned Amy so that he had actually written the words murder and assault with a dangerous weapon on the charging sheet. But because the offices related instructed to release Amy she has never charged with crimes, well, according to Sullivan his interrogation of Amy came to an abrupt halt when Judy Bishop entered. At room. One of the captains duty told him that Judy had spoken to chief polio. And explain that the shooting had been an exit and polio decided he believed her in that was good enough for him Sullivan remembered complaining to the captain if we let every person go because their mother didn't think they committed a crime. There's no point in arresting anyone true. That's true. But he was told that polio had ordered the release and that he had to obey that order. And then Sam Bishop took the stand and he denied that the spat he'd had with Amy had been serious the rubber their home in the summer of nineteen eighty five had been very traumatic for him. He and that was why she took out the gun in loaded. But if there were real interogations done they would have had to say what this fight was about. And kind of get into the details and get to what's going on in this family. Sure. But that was never really done and Judy denied having any sort of relationship with chief John polio. She denied that she has for him at the station and polio in his wife. Ginny testified that they too said that Judy and the chief had not been close. Why think Ginny would be the last one to know if no kidding? They've been close. Right. When they say the wife's last who's just one little tidbit. Ginny was his secretary at the police station. Right. And he dumped his wife and Mary Ginny. So he's kinda got a pattern of womanizing. I think so. After the inquest the case was referred to a grand jury, and in June two thousand ten Amy was indicted for the first degree murder of her brother Sammon, Judy released a statement, we cannot explain or even understand what happened in Alabama. They wrote. However, we know that what happened twenty three years ago to our sunset was an accident. And to me, this is just kind of a matter of convincing themselves because to believe otherwise they couldn't live with that. You're right. It's just a way to cope. But the fact that everyone else went along with it is the shocking part? I almost can't blame the parents. But it can certainly blame the police chief here it's easy in hindsight to say this. But that case was never investigated the way it should have been. I would think any accidental shooting would be less to get it to make sure it's accidental. I mean, that's common sense. I would think seems to me and this isn't a super longtime ago, it's the eighties there. Yeah. So it's not like, it's the eighteen hundreds. And we're gonna populous place it's not like there's small town of two thousand people or something like that. This is big time. Suburb busted, don't see why it wasn't investigated did after the shooting in Alabama. Right. So two days after the Massachusetts indictment was announced. Amy pop the blade out of the safety razor and slashed her wrists in jail cell. Now, she lapsed but survived only because a prison guard discovered her before she bled to death. Now there were some rumors maybe more than rumors about her attempting suicide when she was younger as well. But the parents denying it and not getting her any therapy. I think her father actually admitted that she tried to hurt herself. But then Judy chimed in and said that was an accident. So judy's good at denial. ABC attorney spent eighteen months preparing insanity defense for her and she had asked for the death penalty. The alternative would probably be life without parole in Amy told a friend that she didn't want to spend the rest of her life in a tiny little bucks. But then salmon Judy persuaded Amy that even if she wanted to be executed it could be decades before her execution would be carried out. So she entered a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity and the defense hired a series of very prominent psychiatrist to evaluate Amy. But this is never an easy case to make juries in. Alabama. Specially have shown a dislike for the insanity defense. Just ella. Bama. Think. Most juries don't really go for the insanity defense. Cher. But it was noteworthy that Alabama had showed that in several cases. Yeah. Amy was being treated with anti psychotic medication called hell doll. And she believes that she has paranoid. Schizophrenia. But there was never a definitive diagnosis arrived at this spite the psychiatrists evaluated. So it's going to be difficult to convince a jury or judge that Amy had delusions she had for the most part lived, a pretty well adjusted life had a PHD rates for kids toy to university level, which really probably wouldn't be possible. If you had a serious on treated, mental illness. I think not now her trial was scheduled for September twenty fourth two thousand twelve two weeks before her attorney went to the prosecution asking for the possibility of deal, so Amy was going to be willing to plead guilty to capital murder and exchange for an agreement by prosecutors that they would not seek the death penalty. Psychiatric tests proven inconclusive in defense had no satisfying evidence that Bishop was insane. So the prosecutors agreed to the deal when it was time for her to plead guilty courtroom was full of onlookers. But Aimet Astor family not to come. So she she's lead in everyone's craning their next to catch a glimpse of her. She'll were red jumpsuit and flip flops with white socks on L out of the picture. She's wearing a bulletproof vest as well. At least when she's outdoors, right? She had lost weight and her eyes look sunken. But she seemed to hold her head high trying to maintain a slate era of superiority over the spectators. Yes, I think that part of her has never left her when a defendant pleads guilty in a capital murder case in Alabama. The state is required to present a summary of its evidence in court. So is photos of her murdered colleagues were put up on a projector Amy covered her head with their arms on the table top. The next concern was whether Amy would go to trial for the murder of. Breath in Massachusetts. But trying her for first degree murder would require the prosecution to present a case for a crime that happened more than twenty years earlier and some of the people who would need to testify were now elderly with poor memories. Many people were dead. Most of the physical evidence was missing never collected including the murder weapon had been returned to the family. Plus, the only eyewitness to the killing was Amy's mother. And you really can't believe her. No, simply put also there's the issue of motive there were some people that said there was a long standing rivalry between Amy and her brother, but no one who knew the two siblings would testify that. There was a problem between them. It had been suggested that the spat on the morning of December six had been between Amiens Seth not Amy and her dad, but all the other evidence was that it had been between Amy and her dad after Amy's guilty plea, the DA's office released a statement. Announcing that it would not seek her extradition because Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty, and because Amy is already serving life without parole in Alabama. So her punishment overall wouldn't change so kind of be a wasted effort and expense. But any let it be known through her public defender that she actually wanted to be tried in Massachusetts for Seth death. She had always insisted the shooting was accidental and she resented the implication of the withdrawn indictment. So she wanted to have a trial to help demonstrate that she is innocent. So was there a cover up for Amy intentionally killing her brother in nineteen eighty six Judy Bishop is adamant that the shooting was an accident, of course. But the circumstantial evidence to me supports an intentional shooting. There's also the passability that Amy meant to shoot her father Sam over that argument. They had earlier that day. In one of the big things is judy's timeline. It's very questionable to me. I believe she was home at eleven or twelve not after two pm is she claimed I also believe that she heard the shotgun blasts that came from Amy's room. I think it would be hard to miss it. If she was home the state trooper Ryan, how the state trooper interviewed the bishops after death said that Amy told him that when she came downstairs with shotgun. She had the impression that her mother had been home for awhile. And in the same set of interviews Sam Bishop told how in the to offer says with him that he had expected Judy home between eleven and twelve in her statement Judy said, she had returned to the residents to see if this anything for lunch. Seth was home. When she got there. Judy told how and stated that he would go to the store to pick up some foods. So that we could all have lunch. That contradicts. What she said about arriving home in Seth pulled in right behind her a little after two. So they kind of arrived at the same time. So quite into this account, which was delivered not that long after the shooting. She came home not after Seth returned from the grocery store, but before he'd left, so there's a good reason that salmon Judy Bishop would lie about this time line because in their story, the whole reason Amy took out the shotgun in the first place is because she'd been home alone for several hours, and she was afraid and decided to learn how to shoot the gun on the spur of the moment. Another thing. Amy claim that the shotgun was on her bed when it went off in her bedroom. Her mother Judy said that the shotgun accidents went off when Amy turned in bumped into her brother in their small kitchen. Now, I looked it up according to concealed carry dot com. Assuming normally functioning firearm if the trigger does not move the gun does not fire guns that are just sitting there and not acted on by serious external forces do not go off by themselves. The reasons for this involved how ammunition works. As well as the firearm. So I don't know thing about guns. This is very basic to me where you would think that guns. Just don't fire randomly. I would hope not you have to have pressure on the trigger. Yes. To varying degrees. Some triggers don't require much at all the so-called hair-trigger and others require fair amount of force. I think I read five pounds force. That's what the said about this particular brand of shotgun, which seems fairly significant there. Yeah. So after pleading guilty in September two thousand twelve and waving her right to appeal. She did actually file an appeal in February two thousand thirteen so the appeal stated that she had not been informed of rights. She would be waiving by pleading guilty, and she was not correctly informed. The minimum range of punishment and the circuit court failed to explain that. She could withdraw her plea now later that year, the court of criminal appeals of Alabama rejected that appeal they stated that Bishop failed to challenge the validity of guilty pleas in the circuit court and did not file either emotion to withdraw her please or emotion for a new trial, the families of the shooting victims claim that Amy had amassed documented record of mental instability at the school that officials should have acted on in order to prevent these shootings the lawsuits referred to a life safety policy which mandates that staff. Members experiencing emotional, mental or psychological instability, be referred to police who will in turn work with counselling professionals in order to protect the lives and safety of persons on campus. You're talking about that. Yeah. You touched upon that. You're the university provost was aware that Bishop fell into that category. The lawsuits alleged especially after she was denied tenure in two thousand nine and that's when she began exhibiting threatening behaviour towards several colleagues. The last suits claim that students in colleagues reported several instances of Amy's unsettling behavior among them, a student petition seeking to have her removed ended teen who said he actively avoided her after the tenure decision because she was harassing and hounding him. The reports were brought to the provost. But he failed to act on them. The families claimed the lawsuit also alleged that had the university followed these regulations it would have discovered that she had been investigated in the nineteen eighty six shooting of her brother as well as the nineteen ninety three attempted bombing of a colleague at Harvard University. Wrongful death lawsuits were later dismissed by the Alabama supreme court. So nothing there. So there are several sources to learn more about this case. Top of my list would be February two thousand thirteen New Yorker article titled a loaded gun written by Patrick Raden Keefe. There's also a pretty good book. Call the professors rage written by Michelle McPhee, and there are a series of articles in the New York Times as well. As in the local Huntsville papers. Today's episode is sponsored by ADT ADT can design and install a smart home. Just for you back by twenty four seven protection and controlled from the ADT app or the sound of your voice, use your ADT app to monitor your cameras or video doorbell, and you can check on your home from virtually anywhere. Visit ADT dot com slash smart. To learn more about how ADT can design and install secure smart home. Just for you. The music for true crime brewery is written and produced by tristen Capelle. If you want more TC being your life, go to our website, high grabber dot com where you can join team tigr ever and get access to our members only episodes along with this exclusive access to our large bake of members only episodes you'll receive a gift from us. You can also go to patriotic and become a patron of true crime brewery to get the same benefits, we recently covered the murders at White House farm. Some other members only episodes include the missing grime sisters player. A harris. The crimes of Philip Markelle the murder of Jill Kelley hill. And what we have coming up this month in just a few days. Actually is our episode on pro football player Ray Caruth who was convicted of hiring someone to kill his pregnant girlfriend to avoid paying child support. Some other ways for you to show your support for true crime brewery are following a son Twitter on Instagram and unfished book. You can also join our true crime brewery fan discussions group on Facebook, too and get into some conversations about pass cases or any crime topic. If you enjoy the show, we would really appreciate it. If you could take a couple of minutes to give us a review on itunes or wherever you listen to us. That's very helpful in getting new listeners to listen to the podcast. I'm for feedback. Okay. I got three voicemails. Okay. But before you do. That I just like to say one little thing grew ahead. Remember, you can send your feedback in case suggestions to us in an Email to true crime brewery at Tigra dot com or tell us in your own voice by leaving us a voicemail on the leave of voice mail link on the right side of our websites front page. You can't miss it care. So the first voicemail is from Tusha, and she has a comment on the Santa Claus murders. Okay. Hi, Jilin, dick. This is not ska from Georgia. I am a huge fan of the podcast and have been for a little bit. Every little every year at this slate and just wanted to call and thank you for your most recent episode, the Santa Claus murders. I live in Georgia in actually child and family therapist and work with a lot of kids that are in defects in state custody in the foster care system and just was really thankful for your sensitivity in issue in. Just talking about problems that happen in the foster care system near this was the first episode where you've talked about kids in the state system in what that looks like. And I think the more you do cases like this. You just bring light in awareness to the fact that it needs to be just more than just a state system. We need to be looking out for each other. We need to be looking out for each other's kids. There's just a lot a lot of kids fall through the cracks. And it's important for us to be others keepers in that way. And to take care take care of one another. So thank you so much for the show huge huge fan and people say this all the time, but I'm a huge fan of y'all's relationship. I I wish we knew each other. I wish I knew you guys in real life and can hang out at the quiet end with you. All right. Hope you guys have a great new year and look forward to the next podcast by. Chose this. When not because it was praising us because I like how could push wanted to people to be more aware of the difficulties a kids in social services can have absolutely and people that work in that field just deserve a lot of praise Fisher. Do the other thing I'd say to to Scott is that I don't have your Email. So if you could send us your address and shirt size. We'll get a t shirt off to you. Thanks. Thanks for listening. Thanks for your voicemail. Thank you for the compliments, and especially for your comments on the social services than what we really need to do and look out for kids. But we will definitely cover more cases. Like that. They are some of the most heartbreaking. But I think it is important to bring that out as much as possible for people to talk about make it part of a conversation that we're having. Absolutely, okay. What do you have next case suggestion from? Rachel. Hi dicken. Jill my name is Rachel I'm from Santa Rosa, California. I wanted to say that I love your podcast and your interactions. You're very real and bring life to his story. And a lot of empathy that I feel missing from a lot of crime podcast. I do have a case suggestion. It would be the Polly Klaas murder a happened in northern California in Petaluma. It's something that's very near and dear to my heart because it happened to classmate of my cousins, if people are unfamiliar with it. She was kidnapped during a slumber party. I'm in later, unfortunately, found murdered and it's a fascinating case and their parents also put together the Polly Klaas foundation. And it's something that feel it has been loss. Over time. And I know that. Kids cases are bit sensitive. But one that I think is worth looking into and doing take kind of bring it back to the memory of how we really had childhoods where kids could play around in neighborhoods and Heflebower's and now in this day and age parents have have an eagle eye out on their kids in. It's not the same world that it used to be. So I think there's a lot of content and a lot to process for how it's affected the world around us anyways. Thank you, keep up the good work. And I hope you are having a wonderful holiday. Thank you, Rachel voicemail. And when we started looking this up amazing to me, this is a twenty five year old case, it seems newer. And I think that's maybe because of the work the classes have done. Well, they absolutely have done a good job keeping palace name out there. Air and Epping the whole 'cause out there for everybody. It actually happened Tober. I nineteen ninety three Polly was eleven and she had a couple of friends over for a sleepover. At her mom's house around ten thirty. She opened her bedroom door to go get some sleeping bags and saw a man with the knife. He tied up the girls and told police friends to count two thousand and then left with poly for the next two months about four thousand people helped search for her TV shows like twenty twenty and America's most wanted covered the kidnapping, but at the time Davis was a wanted man. The California Highway Patrol had issued an all points bulletin for violation of parole for previous crime in any police officer encountering him was supposed to arrest him on that charge during the search police officers found him in a nearby rural area where his Ford Pinto was stuck in the mud, but unaware of the the local police let him go without calling his driver's license in. To their dispatcher which would have resulted in his arrest. So it's believed that he drove to an isolated spot where he killed Polly. And buried her in a shallow grave the end of November. Police arrested him for a violation of parole during routine patrol and the arresting officer recognized him from police sketches as palm print had been found in the class bedroom. He was charged with the crime and four days later, he led police to her body. He said that he strangled her with a piece of cloth. And even though there was no method to validate the statement. It was consistent with the evidence. So Richard Alan Davis was convicted of police murder in nineteen ninety six and sentenced to death. The thing. I remember is his formal sentencing where he read a statement claiming that Palley had said to him just don't do me. Like my dad just before he killed her implying that her father was a child molester. So of course, this is a horrible cruel thing that he said and Mark class reacted by shock. Outing burn in hell Davis. Fuck you. Then he lunged at the defendant. But he was restrained. Polly's father Marc became a child advocate as you said an established class kids foundation, and he's made himself available to parents of kidnapped children for years been on TV frequently he's been on Larry King Live CNN headline news and our favorite Nancy grace. Yeah. Well, he has been out there. It's been really working to keep both her name in the public's mind and to help parents and families of other kids going missing. So it's a case that is probably well worth covering. I think so and it's a pretty famous case, but it'd be worthwhile. Doing it. Particularly that discussion. I I wasn't aware that there was an AP out on the local rural police department wasn't aware of it sounds kind of strange if you haven't all points bulletin that all points. Don't get it. You know? So I I think that'd be worth while. Doing think. So it's also I think it was a significant case in developing the three structure out law. Yeah, he had been arrested several times before okay fair. One more voicemail from Melissa. And these are a couple of questions for us. Okay. Hi. This is Melissa from New Jersey longtime PTI supporter look to every Tuesday to hear you guys talk about to crime love the report, you have each other seems like you have a great relationship. I am calling the last day of December beside him hoping to proudly wear one of your t shirts at a question for Jill and question for dick. My question for jail is as wondering why you guys changed the theme music. I really loved your old theme song. And since I heard it just made me really happy. Your new one is good too. But I kind of missed the old one wondering you could sometime sees that may be used one of the intro and one at the end of the podcast or may be used one of them in betw-. Between the two crime story, and the, you know, the listener voicemail and and letters. So let's hear about that. Maybe could play that for me today. And my question for dick is about beer. My father-in-law makes fun of me for drinking fruit flavored beer, and I wonder what your opinion is on beers such as Sam Adams cherry wheat ale line, kogo, great prudan de things like that. My father-in-law doesn't consider the real beer want to know what you think keep up the great work. Love the podcast happy new year. Bye. Thanks, Melissa answer. Her question. First news. Music. Yes. Well, the music that we used in the beginning was free on copyrighted music that I got an YouTube. So it doesn't really belong to us, although it's copyright free. So I wanted to have some original music written for us, which are nephew tristen did. And that's our new music, and which I love our new music, but I do kind of miss the original music. It has that nostalgic. Feel also, but I do think it's important to use rigid music made for us. So I don't know ever use the other music sorry. This was written specifically for us. Yes. Yes. So and the other music is great. But it wasn't written for us. Maybe I could play it on some members only episodes since she's a member. Great. Yeah. And then in regard to the beer question kind of with her father in law, not being a big fan of fruit and beers. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say, they're not really beer this still are. And if you. Like to drink Sam Adams cherry Wieder, shock top or whatever his areas, you can go from there. For instance, with hops you can have all sorts of fruit tastes, fruit, aromas and fruit tastes. So you might consider if you like fruit in your beer trying any of the number of New England PA's that are very fruity. And not Hoppy at all. So it might expand your horizons that way. Well, let's the difference between like a blueberry beer, like see dog has a blueberry beer. Right. Right. So what's the difference between that and one of your fancy beers? Where you say, oh, there's a hint of blueberry. It'd it follows the knows what's the difference. Well, the only difference is those beers are not labeled as blueberry beers. You the hops that give you the flavor. Okay. It's not like dumping a bunch of blueberries into an AOL and saying it's a blueberry beer. Okay. Great. It's it's more subtle. But. I'd still I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of fruit in the beard, but I've drunk more than my share of them. That's a gateway beer could be it could be drink. What you enjoy? Are you like sours? So you drink mostly sours Neal. You'll try their beers from time to time, but you're a sour grow. Yeah. And I'm more of a dark winter beer stout. Porter that type of beer person. Yeah. So he try try different ones. I think the big thing is to keep your options. Open be willing to try their styles. But you're not above teasing people for drinking. Some of these fruit labeled beer, so I think. You think you've done it? Okay. I think you've made fun of plenty of person for that. I might have. Okay. That that was a great voicemail. Thanks, melissa. Cumulus, thanks for supporting us. Also. That's wonderful. So he got some emails. Okay. And the first one is from Cindy. And she has a case suggestion Cindy wrote. I read the book love daddy. And it is about Christian Longo who murdered his family. Also, there's some conflict during his life as he and his parents joined the Jehovah witness denomination first of all he committed a sin before marriage, which prevented him being married in their kingdom hall. This would be a great case to cover due to the fact of this religious denomination. I don't remember if I mentioned this case to you before, of course, Cindy has written to us many times. And I don't think she has mentioned that case. So you familiar with it? I don't think so I would have remembered the Jehovah's connection. Yeah. So yeah, I think it'd be a very good case to cover. All right. Well, we have a few notes here on Christian Longo. He was from Epsilon Michigan. And he married Mary. Jane Baker at age nineteen and they had three children. He and his family often had financial problems due to his reckless spending habits. He was a wanted man in connection with the murder of Mary, Jane and their three children after the body of his four year old son Zachary was found in December nineteenth two thousand one divers. Located the body of his three year old daughter Sadie and Mary Jade in their two year old daughter Madison were found five days later debt as well. After he fled the United States. He was recognized in Cancun in December two thousand one at a hotel and the next day in Oregon federal arrest warrant was issued. They charged him with multiple counts of aggravated murder and unlawful flight he left the hotel on January seventh and was captured six days later without incident in the small town of to loom Quintana Roo about eighty miles south of king Koon he was taken into custody at the George Bush airport, and he was sentenced to death in two thousand three years. Later. He admitted to being a narcissist in a letter that he wrote to a Portland Oregon television station, he wrote that he eventually began studying what a psychologist said and came to terms with it almost totally agreeing that he was right. His conclusion was the narcissistic personality disorder, which he called compensatory winning Mexico Longo used the name Michael Finkel and the former New York Times reporter who later chronicled his experiences in his memoir true story was later adapted into a two thousand fifteen film. So this is a case that is very interesting. And I think I'm gonna buy the book and read it and see what we think it looked interesting. Yeah. Definitely. I have no idea. What happened the specifics? But it's a horrible story. There must be a lot going on behind the scenes there. I'm sure I'd love to look into that. Okay. We'll do that broker. So then we have a Email from Tiffany with her comment on bridges. Darus? So Tiffany says I'm a fan frequent writer and a clinical psychologist from Australia. I specialize in PTSD and have done many years of research into past and current methods of recovery. There is a long and exceedingly checkered history of psychological psychiatric treatments that is frequently unforgivable from inappropriate behavior. Non consenting chemical and mechanical interventions right through to this sort of diabolical practitioner client rape. And that's the possibilities in the episode that the surviving child Becky Becky was victimized by her psychiatrist. Right. Yes. That's true. Just terrible. Tiffany goes on to say cutting to the chase. I am not a big fan of group therapy and Emma, strong advocate of Besset Vander cokes neurobiological approach to PTSD recovery. It pains me that this poor woman who took steps to get. Psychological. Help was virtually pushed off the ledge by all the stuff that happened after the initial act keep him rolling guys. The only thing I just wanted to mention about Dessel van to coke is a psychiatrist in Boston Boston University school of medicine, and he conducted the first studies on the effects of SRI's PTSD, and it was a member of the first neuro imaging team to investigate how trauma changes brain processes. And he did the first research linking BPD, bipolar disorder and deliberate self injury to trauma, and in early childhood much of his research has focused on how trauma has a different impact at different stages of development, and that disruptions caregiving systems have additional dilatoriness effects need to be addressed for effective intervention. Good letter. Thank you, Tiffany. And one final comment from tristen three D. He's commenting on trigger-happy which was. The shooting of Jordan Davis. Yes, he's the young man who was shot outside of a convenience store because the man in the car next one felt like the music was too loud that he and his friends were playing so tristen writes, yes, the parking lot issue was one of the main questions why did he pick this spot? So he saying why did the shooter pick the spot next to the car with the loud music? Maybe he didn't hear the music that he deemed loud, which is actually a matter of opinion to a certain extent beforehand. But as soon as he heard it and was annoyed by it. He had some options asking for bringing the volume down without intent for confrontation backing out into another parking space ignoring it until his fiancee finished her shopping and then just drive away. Hey, there's an idea going inside the station and away from the noise. Those are just the few options off the top of my head. And there are probably more any other option. Other than shooting at a truckload of teenagers would have been a better option, but he chose to confront them. And he did not back down. He did not intimidate as I would have that telling teenagers. What to do would likely result in getting smack tucked back at him after shooting Davis, whom he claimed to be a threat to him. He shot more rounds into a car that was already in the process of driving away from him the assailant with the gun. This is no self defense, especially because the threat he claimed to have perceived with shut down by him already shooting. More rounds only accounts for done being extremely angry at the teenagers in the car for talking back to him angry enough that he wanted to murder them all of them. So in conclusion, I believe he wanted the confrontation he probably thought he didn't have to take anything from anybody because he had gun and the stand your ground law of Florida as murky as it is doesn't make such situations any easier because the gun. Men always believes he just needs to claim self defense and may walk free in return, pulling the trigger makes this so much easier for them. That's the end of it. Or maybe it got cut off. Sorry. No. That's okay. So this is kind of what your opinion was dick. I put this on because Tristan's conclusion was that the guy wanted a confrontation, and that's that's what I think he drove in to that parking lot that mini mart parking lot with the hopes that he could take out his anger at somebody. Yeah. Willie had been at his son's wedding. And he and his son didn't really get along. Right. This was an a strange, son. They hadn't spoken for some time. So he's he's at the wedding. They actually left before during the reception it in stay for the whole thing. And I think there was also some issues that he and his fiancee had been having. There was some arguments. There might take is that he'd probably had some drinks. And he was pissed off his looking to take it out on somebody Jordan Davis was the one who had taken out on probably racist. I think it's pretty safe to say, okay. Yeah. Okay. Well in just an interesting note on the Jordan Davis case is his mom Lucy. Macbeth who became a really prominent anti gun violence advocate, and she's headed to congress in November. She was elected. She has a seat in the Georgia house of representatives. Yes. I think that's great for her that she was able to take this tragedy and do something positive for other people. And we hope she'll continue advocating, absolutely. We definitely need more people like her. Okay. Is that the last E-mail for today? That's for today. So let's finish our beer title back home. Resign its way. Okay. Sounds great. Thank you for listening. And we will see you next time at the quiet and quarry and by by by.