3 Episode results for "Sharon Jackson"

The hardest show I ever had to do trying to be brave still heartbroken.

The big d zone

22:55 min | 7 months ago

The hardest show I ever had to do trying to be brave still heartbroken.

"This prestige say he got Your empty contrary this big deal so it was to the funeral home going on my best friend and even the point that i had to take a different airline normally one that i would never go to because of what they did to the doctor. A ton of a ton of work. Well i had put this off. But then other i couldn't find bulletin because of one thing or another but i did find it and this is gonna be the most hardest difficult episode ever had to do and the history of the on as you know my best friend tunnel death and had passed now. I didn't know that he passed earlier. December i just got the news. During new year's 'cause according to you know the car they give out during the funeral. The the nice picard. Did they give data. He went home on december third thirty. I'm sorry i'm reading this wrong. I'm sorry he was born on december. Third i'm sorry and now with a nine hundred sixty nine. I'm reading it long. Daddy i though he did pat on the. I'm sorry i mean in the phone. Okay so but anyway. I didn't find out until after. I thought if i were that. The detective pal is nearly five hours. Then turn around and facebook. I mean it did. The year the newest star and i found that out so i'm scrambling trying to find out where the funeral gonna be. What's it gonna be a long time. He was a part of the The fellowship apparently Center by delay. Peter went dead. Who often went home longtime ago and i had it had to go to. It's you know when. I used to live in boston so well. But this is the most difficult part of the lamb. Everything's that. I got dick returning from the funeral because you know the airline to always wanted a crowded terminal on power the plane and all that crap we care about passenger safety here right. I got a nice breath. That i want to tell you anyway. So the build up to read the bulletin. This is going to be called through bravery. I'm gonna read the poem that was given to us the funeral and this was about colton funerals The poem is called. i'm free don't grief from me for now. Free unfulfilled the pair. God laid for me. I took his hand. Where i when i heard him call. I turn my back and left it all. I could not stop another day to laugh to love to work or play task. Left undone must stop that way. I found that people at the close of day if my and my parting has less able aide then fill it up. Remember remember remember joy kind of small. Forgive me. their friendship shared ella. Okay oh yes they think i too will be not burden. Times a thorough. I wished you the sunshine tomorrow. My life here. Full i felt. I thought of i- i- favored much good friends. Good time a loved one touch for half my time. Things all too brief. Don't don't lay thing. don't let them in. Don't let them now with flynn grief with a a sites so small on on co brief. Let up your car and as share with me. God's wanted me now. He set me free and has from Author unknown okay. i had to get. I didn't know if i was to be able to do this. But i am fighting like guy in but wwf wrestler during this. And i know it's late. I know it's been since i got sick copen in february and recovery. But let me start by the begin at the brain a new beginning Caroline jackson taro jeffrey jackson the similar third nineteen sixty nine to december thirty first. Twenty twenty Thursday january fourteen. Twenty twenty eleven. Am greater cornerstone church and he started our new jersey okay. So here's the arbitrary. Early hour the thursday september. Twenty twenty tunnel definitely jets was called home to be with the lord. Tyrone was born to sharon jackson. And thomas wilton one on the one thousand nine hundred nine in newark new jersey. He with educated by the york public school systems graduated from fellas burke high school in nineteen eighty eight about a year after graduating from high school. Tunnel gained employment with macy's logistic warehouse. Where he was a ploy for thirty years and he. He's been there even after i. I became friends for them. So i've been there for a long time chirons glenn. Graham butter delay peres jetson thought to a dead town heard the gospel of jesus christ by taking him to church every sunday and through hearing the word he accepted. Try death this lord and savior at an early age. He became a member of the greater harvest. Baptist church where he the feed his christian foundation and where he met his current pastor as The past niles wilson passed. The wilton had seen dense became tunneled friend and mentor. Tyrone elected his job with macy but his real passion was yard do his passion. He created and founded uplifted production under the umbrella of uplifted production. Tunnel jackson breakthrough. television ministry. Emerged as one. That i helped him. health to to do and encourage them to do the television there for many who impacted tyrone ministry by giving him a platform to hone his skill. There were Charles bank the late bishop. Blue davis from the greater harvest Back the church. Delay reverend peter wednesday pastor a dad howie from the fellowship empowerment enter and the jihadist from organization creative spirits who introduce him to filming at cablevision just to name a field now where i come into the picture. I helped him to Wanting to take break do not only to start bay do but also take it to another level. I only help in front of the camp Behind the camera. But i also help One of the back of the camera and we'll be sharing a funny story until after. I read this obituary so let's continue tyrone at also known as t why can't be described as a tv host. A radio host a poet an actor but most of all a man of god who loved using these mediums to spread the good news tunnel hosted three different title capable shows at cable vision. You can treat different genre. They were as berisha aspirational family. Current events and comedy at the radio host broadcast took place prior to his illness. Saturday morning fund. The new jerusalem radio. Which is the radio station over there Over there where they live dad as a poet. He published many poems and christian literature. Max magazine great. Fine as an actor he was he wasn't many production. Perform at the fellowship of fellowship empowerment. That there i was in one of the production went him when i used to live there. i forgot one of the play that i worked in there with them. But it was always fun times dime personally the funny part during rehearsal so but anyway To know tyrone is to love him you will. He will be remembered for his honor for his positively for unshakable faith and for the love. He had for his mother. This dole's left to mourn and terrorist memory are devoted mother. Sarah jessen father thomas william and his butterfly liam read vetting five on sharon. Edward dole's what doubt Apologize again that name on those jackson. Laurine jones ella russell williams. Why not go wayne. One uncle wayne's Tamin beverly bonds. Who was a second mother along with the host of cousins and fran and he was his final resting. Place that Hollywood cemetery in union new jersey. I'm also going to be reading another poem before. I share the story. This is the one that i liked Like when i was reading the poem at the hotel if changed address their family and friends. I want you to know that. I have moved themed to call from god. The chief architect who informed me that my home is ready and that i can move you all know that i have been tending up my timber in my own way packing packing up a little at a time getting ready to go but there was some some some more things to do some work to finish some final changes on some on some Timber the only that only the chief comforter jesus christ could help me do also had two way for him to let me know when he had some of the little things that were too too thick or just not long enough. Well my new home is finished. And if such a beautiful sight to behold is located in the and an exclusive as close of state area as sits behind a beautiful parallel gay just off a fear. Celestial shore of course the streets are paved with gold and everyday if sunday here i have been i have been told. I have lived several places before my my new home was prepared. And none of the other could compare if he's joy and happiness here where no more pain and cares of the world to hear to bear. No strife and no steph or disappointment there is only sweets to serenity everywhere. And i could go on. I could go on. I can't feed this for exploring around my new home. But i have to give i had to get fitted for my wayne. Let me give you my new address. Because i highly recommend you may plan to live here to toronto jackson. Twelve days to city avenue. God's town heaven and there's seven seven seven seven seven. Oh yeah let me tell you. Let me tell you the things the thane i. I do not have a telephone yet but just called god if you do not if you do not have had number. He is listed in the good book on every paid contact him and as the death in the family analyst with deep appreciation of all all the kinda a extended to them during their time. A our make up. Bless you for all your thoughts and time and again deep Provided body colton funeral home. This that was the most hardest. The most hardest thing that i ever had read in the history of my career a my entire time building big country. They'll under the theme. That's the country camera. Datin will forever have a place in a big country hall of fame he does have a plaque along with that longtime my wife and all the people for palestinians into the country. I know this is late. I noticed this months late. But due the fact that i was sick as still trying to grieve able to do this on time but now that i am in the middle of still trying to recover and the sun is shining. I have a little bit of time to do a special special show dedicated jet. I would now like to ask for everybody to do a moment of silence. I know the music might be still playing. But i would like to ask for a moment of silence for camel. Gasson a tunnel jazz. A breakthrough Thank you be country. I forgot to share your story. Couple of funny stories. The tunnel gets into the main program is to you know. Todd remember when you. Maybe that's why all these things are coming up. And when i heard that voice found out he died in his sleep. But i was called to help him tape one day and i went over to his place and So we will taping and he made a mistake on the name so he's reading reading arena noreen and then come the time when they saw reading the letter but it was the way he said he was like and i was like cracking up. All at thing. I was like cracking up. Laughing almost fell off the chair like One of those chairs that you know Wrestler people with tears like cracking up laughing that funny then devils a story that he told when he went to a wwe match and there was a mess that will default the akali but he didn't realize that the maslow's over when he was in the middle of getting onto name so he told me that you know he was going to get some during the kelly was fighting and nothing in all here here is winner and away. He fade away. He was discovering a story and when he would come back and he missed the match. It was so hilarious. It was so hilarious. I was like dying laughing. When i got off the phone. This oh my god. This guy is crazy. I was cracking up laughing and another time probably was one of my favorite time is when we went to a place called the house of bishops. Okay one of my favorite bucher. A there was a rat. Bite is christian rap bart is. He's doing this song because we told them that. Don't get off the screen until we say net after we take a dump. Get off the screen until we say it's okay right so he was doing his own dona assault during the song everything well and then i heard that any walls that i don't know what happened. I was busted out laugh like having a heart attack. Like i thought about getting a dog though they are. I was crying laughing at the day because the way the ever was better than i was gonna happen here. My cat but that was that was great time. Great time. I'm going to miss that. I'm really gonna miss that so pretty sure that he's hanging out with my wife. My beloved i went to the funeral fellow to my wife for me. I actually said that. I said to my wife for me and at the end of the funeral i waited to the end of the funeral when i pulled the cast in a way i said i love you. I love you better. That real loud.

copen Caroline jackson jeffrey jackson sharon jackson thomas wilton york public school fellas burke high school Tyrone new jersey peres jetson christian foundation niles wilson Tunnel jackson tyrone ministry Charles bank Blue davis reverend peter fellowship empowerment enter a colton berisha
Episode 104-- Does Buying a Gun During Lockdown Increase Your Risk of Suicide

Red, Blue, and Brady: Season One

45:06 min | 10 months ago

Episode 104-- Does Buying a Gun During Lockdown Increase Your Risk of Suicide

"This is the legal disclaimer where he told you. The views thoughts and opinions shared on this podcast belong solely to our guests on hosts and not necessarily brady aubrey's affiliates. Please note this. Podcast contains discussions of violence that some people may find disturbing. It's okay if find it disturbing to. Hey everyone welcome back to red brady and twenty twenty so far. According to the new york times nearly two point five million americans bought a firearm for the first time meanwhile as cova nineteen continues and so does physical isolation rising unemployment rates concerns about domestic violence and so much more many have worried that suicide rates and suicidal asian may increase as well so big question does buying a gun during covid. Increase your risk of suicide well. New research does show that those who fought firearms during the pandemic are more likely to deal with suicidal idealization than pre existing gun owners to break down. What this actually means. Kellyanne on your speaking with dr michael analysis the executive director of the new jersey gun violence research center and associate professor at the rutgers. School of public health then are unbelievable but segment. Kelly discuss white. Guns don't belong in schools. Final news roundup. We're talking about the brady. Bill passed mass shooting and the continuance of gun violence in communities across the us doctrine says. Thank you so much for for joining us today. I am so excited to start digging down into into your work everything that you do so i'm wondering if we can just start by just having you introduce yourself to our audience. Yeah sure can estes. I am as just this past july. The executive director of the new jersey violence research center and an associate professor of urban global public health at rutgers but for the eight years. They didn't up to this summer. I had been a core faculty member in the clinical psychology program at university of southern mississippi. So aerobic jumped from the deep south back to where i spent most of my life. Which is the northeast and in terms of my work. I m soussan researcher by trade. And so i work with thomas joiner at florida state in graduate school and have spent the last fifteen plus years really focused on suicide prevention but most relevant to our conversation today over the last half decade or so. My work has become increasingly focused on the role of firearms in suicide. Open the military but but also just generally speaking across the us. And i think that sort of begs the question I'm always curious about what people choose to focus their studies in a particular way. What got you into this particular niche. Because i know for example what i i think kellyanne both done. We're at a party and someone says what you do is the gun. Violence prevention is not always exactly. That's not the the happy fun thing to study or to work in. And so what got you into this. Yeah you know. I think the most inspiring stories on how folks find their way to their work are often personal narratives of things happen and to be perfectly honest. That's not really how i got here on this. I think i. I got into suicide research just because i wanted to do some good in the world and i like complicated problems. And that's what this feel like a chance to work on some incidents difficult that that maybe would help somebody and then obviously living in the deep south for the last really. It was over ten years. And you factor in graduate school and residency and all the stuff. That's down there for a long time. And firearms are so much more present there than they are. Where i grew up a grownup in southwestern connecticut. It just really wasn't my radar all that much. In fact i grew up just a couple of towns down from where sandy took took place and so it was real perspective shift and i again always prefer to be. Someone's trying to solve a problem and not just complain about it and and so feeling very different than a lot of my community in the deep south on these in a lot of other issues. I figured i could rant and rave and and argue with people where i could sort of take my nerdy niche set of skills and apply them to a problem again. That maybe do some good and so that's sort of i ended up. I think i'm a person is relatively good at getting along with folks and so maybe position to to do some work in this space where people fight a lot and not be someone who's who's fighting people but instead of instead of saudi make a difference to think it's interesting you talked about different types of stories and narratives in how they're inviting because i i actually find it very inspiring that you wanted to do some good and wanted to do some good in area. That's hard and confronted head on. Because i know in previous podcast about sixty especially one of the things that comes out is how we have to talk about it and we have to face it head on and not treat it as sort of a secret so i actually find it very very inspiring towards it and i was wondering if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about your book which is entitled guns and suicide an american epidemic and wondering why you defined it as an epidemic and why that public health frame as necessary. Yeah sure and that's a word. I chose really carefully and also thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate that Epidemic is a word that i think a lot of may be pushed pushed back on for a number of reasons when you talk about social media guidelines talking about suicide one of the things people will will mention his it. You don't wanna sensationalize things you don't want to create the headline. And just to get people revved up without a sense of a solution and mindful that but like you said suicide is something need to talk about. We need to handle it head on. And so i also didn't want to beat around the bush. And so what i was looking for was a word that highlighted the scope of an issue. That people quite. Frankly just don't realize is such a big issue right and so you have to use a big enough to get their attention. And i also think that people think about epidemic especially in in a pandemic moment brand right now as as a really scary term but just like the marin right now is is scary it also comes with an end right like people were conspiring hard to come up with vaccine to get us on the other side of this right like epidemics caused a lot of harm and a lot of tragedy. But they're also things you can solve if you're willing to figure out how to do it right. And so. I looked epidemic as an appropriately strong term to says it say this is causing untold harm in our country and we can probably solve it but not if we keep on the same path. We've been on. I think the using framing epidemic though too. I think goes back to what you mentioned earlier with idea of firearms in culture and firearms culture and people's comfortableness with firearms in type of firearms. They're comfortable with. I think that's so different across the us. And i think we have a lot of international listeners. And i think that's something that it's sometimes hard to explain that the us is huge and it is very different. Regionally and folks relationship with firearms are different but everyone interacts with nepotistic. Everyone interacts with public health. Although cova has shown us that that itself is very regional and in very different. So i i think it's important to flag to sorta pellets universalize. Is that experience. I wonder if a there's a few times i'm going to do this to you. And i hate to ask you to to speak for all americans. But why do you think that americans in general don't now or or appear. You'll very uncomfortable talking about suicide especially firearm suicide. When we know that the majority of gun deaths are suicides and we know that the majority of suicide deaths are gun. Deaths you know. Why is there this strange separation happening from reality. So i don't think there's one answer i think there's a few things. It's sorta stand out e. n. The obvious one would be things like stigma right to. There are a lot of sort of cultural norms around talking about feelings and and demonstrating what someone might think of as weakness or inability to solve problems. Right you think of america very individualist society or culture is very much about pull yourself up by your bootstraps and find your way to a solution. And the way i think people think about suicide is that it's something that we people do. They call it the easy way out. Even though it's exceedingly difficult to do right and so no one wants to be identified as that and so i think there are a lot of cultural norms that that caused people to not seek help under report their thoughts of suicide and because of this that that impacts the conversation how people think about right so that's one aspect of it is that it's sort of this secret due to to stigma. I think the other part of it though. That is maybe less obvious. Most important i think particularly in terms of firearm suicide is is this idea of salience right at and so most people just feel like that's something that happens to someone else. Even though the great scientists like julie cyril shown how many of us are are considered lost survivors and who have been impacted by suicide. One way or another in still tends to be something. I think that people think about something happens to someone else. And so if you think about that from the firearm owners perspective right they understand. The accidents are problem. And so you want to make sure that you keep the fire out of reach of your child. Maybe in nets salient. But the idea that you should take firearm and stored out at home or make it more difficult to access well. That doesn't make sense. Because what salient to that individuals that somebody might break into their home in the middle night threatened. Them and their family sent to reach the firearm. And here i am telling them no lock it up. Sort unloaded in fact. Get it out of the home and that sounds like lunacy to them because suicide is something happens to someone else and so because i don't think we've done a very good job of of helping folks connect with the idea. That suicide isn't a sign of weakness and it doesn't something that happens to some other person happens to everybody across all walks of life in fact if you close your eyes and picture out of person i bet what you picture as very little do a reality of day to day american suicide. We've done such a poor job of getting that message across that people haven't connected with the idea that would motivate change and when motivate the conversation to map onto. The data is interesting that you talked about the idea of salience and you know suicide being something remote. The happens out there and other people because one of the things that i think. I've thought myself in the past. And i've heard before he says idea. Also that sort of this. Uncontrollable unstoppable thing. You can't really intervene. And so i'm wondering if you could talk about. What is what a suicide prevention. What is that me. And why does it matter. Yeah so suicide is is complicated and it is difficult to intervene. I spent a long time. And i talked to committee members about how the help their loved ones being like. Hey make sure you don't have the impression that you can necessarily see this coming in and know what to do. That's hard joe. Franklin show that we are no better now they were. We were in the nineteen fifties it perspectively predicting death by suicide and the experts are just better than coin. Flip right so there's some sense of this is difficult intervene. It just isn't impossible right and so question. What is suicide. prevention was a good one to me at its core. It's prevent people from dying intentionally at their own hands right and so that's the basic baseline thing to do. It goes beyond that. I mean suicide. Prevention also becomes about helping people live life worth living and find happiness enjoy in thriving. It's helping attempt survivors. You know step out of the shadows and have their voices heard and so. It isn't just about preventing death. My works about preventing death because so much of the work leading up to this has been about helping people feel better and in so we've failed to prevent people from dying that to flip the script around and said suicide prevention at its core really is about preventing death from there we then do the important vital work of helping people happy fulfilling lives but i need them to be alive for that to happen and so suicide preventions about finding ways to prevent an individual from dying again. It comes back. I think to us not having great language around this because he's new conversations to the idea that yet for example someone said to me harm reduction strategies for xyz for like to make people stop smoking or go okay. Great like i know what those things are. I know how to make that happen for suicide prevention. It just seems much more difficult and much more complex and because it's uncomfortable. I think people sort of shy away from it in a big way. Yeah and i think that people struggle to just because you know there are a couple things you could try to do and suicide prevention. You can try to make some feel better so they don't want to die by suicide but you can make it harder for someone to die by suicide even though they still might want to. And we all have the tendency to want to just make someone feel better and there are evidence based tools at work for that right those dialectical behavior therapy cognitive therapy. Their tools that exist in. And i'm not here to diminish them but the general actual sort of marketplace of what happens when people try to make people feel better isn't evidence based treatments that are particularly effective. And so it feels. I think to a lot of folks like a lost cause or a system that feeling not so great whereas suicide preventions core is about making it more difficult to happen so that people are less likely to act on the thoughts which most people actually don't ever do right and so much. My work of in in suicide prevention is getting people to understand that if you can intervene and prevent someone from using a specific method to attempt suicide. There's there's a good chance they'll never attempt to any method ever. It just doesn't seem to most folks like that's the case. I'm thinking that that then sort of leads into the intersection of we're getting more and more researchers now like yourself or more folks who are also working at advocacy as well and i'm wondering if you could talk about that. Interplay of having more and more we see more and more activism more and more advocates in the space who this this is also what they've been educated it. This is what they're training and sort of the importance of actually having folks at the table. Who we've got survivors. We've got people carried leave us but then we also have folks that are like. Here's my standard table. Let's discuss and so. I wonder if you can talk about that a little bit. Why that's so important. Yeah i mean. I don't know that my perspective unfortunately maps on to all my peers respective on this. I keep asking you to speak in generalities for everyone but but mean i think that's the problem right. And so the the system. That's currently in place. It's the stains. Researchers career wise incentivizes peer reviewed publications and conference presentations. And that's how we get tenures and tenure and promotion than all these sort of accolades right and respect from peers. And in fact. It's not just that you're not rewarded for being to the public or or making your voice heard or promoting work. It said in a lot always looked down upon. And so there's there's a problem in that. Scientists tend to remove themselves from the conversation and then be completely astounded. That nobody's listening to them when they in fact never spoke which is maddening right. And so i think it's vital. I think that the country overall and racine well beyond just gun. Violence has a problem where there's not much of a belief in science or an understanding in science or or a sense that science should guide policy and decision making and that's a problem because science historically spent been pretty great tool for advancing our ability to do some good stuff right and so i think it's vital not because scientists are smarter than everyone but because scientists are doing hard work and feeling more often than not but occasionally stumbling upon some knowledge that isn't obvious rightly like so much of our conversation tasted about like. This isn't how people would obviously think about it. But it's working out right and so that shows you that. Yeah it's it's important to study these things but then it's important to talk about what you studied. Otherwise we'd knows anything about it and in the absence of the voice of scientists isn't even a vacuum. It's worse it's the presence of pseudoscience and stuff that sounds into the but is misguided and wrong and in some cases harmful right and so. I think it's vital. It's tricky because to the extent that that i am certain that there are scientists who would see me being on this podcast and be dismissive of me as a scientist. Because they'd say well he's a political actor. But i'm not right. I mean certainly political opinions about firearms or every other human in this this country. But you have to speak about things in order for people to care about them. And i think that the last day stopgap because there's a long answer i know but most folks don't want to hear from scientists in terms of our credibility is pretty low and the only way we're gonna address that is by changing the perception that we are becoming central relate relatable folks who will be willing to take the time to talk about stuff and make it interesting and to the extent that we are unwilling to do that. There's nothing that's going to change about our role in impacting policy. No i think that's a really important point because one of the things that comes up a lot i think is because of this. This lack of trust or lack of credible reporters. There are a lot of myths about gun suicide out there or firearm suicide. And so i would love. Maybe we can take minutes to try to talk about that a little bit. I think that that's important. Yeah there are myths. That i think are worth taking a moment. Talk about because the really intuitively appealing. And if you latch onto them than just let everything. I'm saying is going to sound like nonsense and understandably so and so might be. We're taking a moment to talk about a couple of them. One of them would be. Hey if you stop someone from using a firearm. Won't they just find another method and another would be if this is really about preventing people from using firearms wise. The suicide rate so high in a place like japan or south korea where it's nearly impossible to get access to a firearm insulin. The first one they won't they just find another way or means substitution. The answer's no. The data shows pretty. Clearly they don't. That's why when i gave all those examples earlier of sri lanka and overall went down just that method. No one's interested in changing out. Someone dies by suicide among prevent them from dying by suicide and so the data shows pretty clearly not what tends to happen. But even if you don't believe those data the reality is as we said earlier. Folks are so much more likely to survive other methods. That he'd be brent them. From using a firearm chances i will survive and as we said earlier survived or not that likely to attend. So even if you dismiss. All the data showing people don't swap methods. I'd still rather than a swamp methods if they were going to use a firearm. Because they're more likely to survive. So that's one of the mets said look don't tend to find another way and if they did though survive more likely than not and civil save lives over the long run a the other one but what about other countries where. It's harder to get a firearm. That really goes back to what we were talking earlier. Which is not the same answer every place you know. The snarky answer would be imagine how high the suicide rates in japan after it would be if it didn't firearms but the reality is different. Cultures developed a script of. What suicide means. I'm what looks like an shapes how people think about it and how they act upon their thoughts and what they do in those those scripts can be localized at a national level. They can be localized the state level. That can be localized within a family. Group it can shift right but the reality is if you look at specific areas. We are identify specific problem. That's the problem you have to solve an in the us. It's a firearm problem. In somewhere down the line. If the firearm suicide rate dwindled zero something else would become a bigger should. Maybe we'll hang themselves more. Maybe some other method comes in right. Well that point we'd have to address that too but think about all the lies you would have saved the interest rate and so the idea. Isn't that firearms are the root causes suicide. it's that they are really pivotal component of suicide in the united states and point of intervention. Bre- actually have an opportunity to save a lot of lives at a scale. That people tend to underestimate. Actually super fascinating. I we talk a lot about how when we're talking about gun. Violence at least there are so many intersections and so many connections. That may not be apparently obvious in hearing you connect this general movement towards the dish trust in science to come. I think is really key. So i'm really glad that you impact that because it is true. I think there's a lot of intuitive things around safety and risk in gun. Violence brit large not to mention suicide prevention. And to the point about evidence versus our intuitions. Or what we suspect. I know at one point earlier. You ask you said if we were to close your eyes and picture a person who was having suicidal igations. We might be wrong and so i was wondering if you could impact the statistics around who is at highest risk for firearm suicide. And then also how did you determine that. Yeah sure and so. You're know the typical american suicide is going to be a white male mandalay's older who dies on their first suicide attempt using a handgun that they've owned for a decade or more. The folks around that individual are going to be left behind saint. I never saw this coming a must have come out of nowhere. 'cause they didn't talk to me about it. And that's the the general pattern now. Obviously this is not just a white problem. This isn't something where we should ignore other groups. This is not just a male problem. This is not just an older adult problem. And it's not just a firearm problem right. So that's the typical presentation. it's not the only presentation but that's what you're seeing and then within that you have subgroups so folks who served in the military folks who live in rural areas firearm owners people who people have increased access to in comfort with firearms. essentially what. You're gonna get it. So first responders law enforcement and some of those populations over quite a bit right and it isn't necessarily their identity with those groups that bestow the risks so much as just the access to comfort with with the most lethal method for suicide. Now that's the fire officers. I picture right. So you can expand beyond that and talk about increased risk amongst veterinarians who are gonna use vitol in their suicide attempts right. That's not as relevant to this conversation with the ideas that the folks most likely to die by suicide in america are the folks who have ready access to comfort with methods with actually a highly thallady rate. They're actually likely to cause death folks don't realize it's only two three percent of intentional. Overdoses resulted in death whereas eighty five to ninety five percent of firearm suicide. Him stephen and a much. Higher percentage of phenobarbitol overdoses rights veterinarians. Have this high suicide death rate instead of just attempt rate and so it's it's really about who is equipped to act on their misery. Not who's most miserable. But who has the ability to do something about these thoughts that aren't necessarily more pervasive or pernicious than other folks suicidal thoughts. They just happened to be paired with this access in this comfort. And so i think when most folks close your eyes on thinking about that method that access component. They're just thinking about the misery they think. Well who's the people who are most likely to be miserable. Niklas rising think of that. And those folks deserve attention again trying to deflect away from that and just highlighting that we so often miss a large swath of the folks who actually likely to die by suicide in fact our entire suits prevention of healthcare system is designed to wait for someone to raise their hand and say i need help and then we hopefully direct them. The evidence based care When the reality is we mentioned earlier that a lot of these folks don't wanna see care and they don't wanna tell you their thoughts and that's why we all say we never saw coming. We just think about it the wrong way and with firearms being as lethal as they are as a means. It's not a case. Where sally if someone just something they shouldn't have. There's time generally call nine one and two to manage that way. Whereas i believe firearms are there. Overwhelmingly lethal yeah. It's eighty five to ninety five percent of firearm suicides attempts result in death again compared to that two to three percent figure for for overdose. So it's it's it's really a huge contrast and what's really tragic about that is seventy percent of folks who saw five in attempt temple never attempt again right and so second chances obviously matter but folksy. He's a highly recommend that. Don't get a second chance almost ever and you can see that in fact that i've tried to recruit samples research studies of folks who survived firearm suicide attempts. And the fact is it's almost impossible because there are so few it's it's it's even difficult to study on that front. And so just a uniquely sort of rare group of folks and hard region it highlights the fact that the method really made such a difference in the outcome. I wanna make sure that we we give people a call to action. You know something that. At least they can do if they're listening to this and they're starting to get concerned or if they had concerns and that's why they're listening to this in the first place so i'm wondering you know. What would you recommend in terms of just general policies especially for folks who have firearms in their home. Yeah and so. This point is not exclusive firearms. It's the it's the primary focus in the us. You can look across the globe at crossley at and the ideas when you are able to either reduce the league allergy of a method or reduce the access to the method if it's a highly lethal and highly economies method geographic area. You're going to lower the suicide rate and so you can see that. In the fact that when they detoxify domestic gas in the uk in the mid twentieth century the suicide rate went down forty percent when they banned the most lethal brands of pesticides in sri lanka last couple decades their nationals who are down by fifty percent right and so it's not the same story in every single location. It's the story that maps onto that location in the us stories firearms because it's more than half the suicide deaths right that sits atop fifteen cause of death in its own right in the us as firearm suicide. And so there's not one single way to do it but it's a a firearm less lethal it is what it is and so it's about limiting access in this case and that doesn't mean a gun grabbed. That doesn't mean you know. Abolish the second amendment. But i mean there's a couple of things people when when we're doing lethal needs counseling and we talk about generally storing firearms more safety from suicide prevention standpoints. I mean story. Them unloaded separate from ammo in a secure location. Like unsafe or lock box. And quite frankly. I deals with On it so trigger. Lock lock right but not everybody's gonna be opened it that whole some cascade of interventions and we quickly don't have data showing which one which combo is the most effective but the other thing we emphasize is that book in times of stress for yourself or anyone else might have access to a firearm. You wanna stored away from hall. Make sure you're mindful of local restrictions on temporary transfers of firearms of the you're not committing a felony in an effort to save someone's life but yeah firearm. That's not in. The home is a lot less dangerous than one that is and we don't think about going to buy a fire extinguisher when the houses already on fire the same. So you'd probably shouldn't think about moving the firearm. When you're you're most suicidal probably wanna think about it as having some plans ahead of time for his things start to go down a certain path. I know how to do this on comfortable. That doesn't feel like it's infringing on my right. Split also allows for us to protect the individuals at risk. And it's interesting you talked about access and stressed and sort of acute stress versus thinking ahead because one of the things that we've been seeing a lot of our reports that firearm purchases have searched and the fear that that may also cause a surge in firearm suicides. And i'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about what has been driving the increase in purchases of firearms during the pandemic so. I don't know that we know for sure. What's driving it right. So we have some preliminary data from iowa from other places that give us a sense of things. We have sort of related research in the general sense. I guess there's a lot of things contributing to the unprecedented firearm purchasing surge in twenty twenty. It's mostly driven by anxiety that anxiety itself comes from a variety of sources whether that's the pandemic whether that was contentious presidential election rather that's a response to the racial justice movement whether that's of a response to just reports have increased gun violence or decreased stock of firearms and ammunition that will be available. There's all these different things would drive somebody to think. This is the moment. I need to do this right but from work. That my friend. Craig ryan and i have been putting out a sort of a string papers recently. Our general senses that a lot of folks who are driving this purchasing surge. Have this general sense that the world is dangerous. People are untrustworthy. That there's a lot of uncertainty in the world and uncertainty hard thing to tolerate that the firearm itself as a tool that makes an individual feel a sense of safety upon acquisition. And so while they were feeling stressed before they got this and that made them feel better. And that's reinforcing and it's gonna prompt you the next time you're feel anxious to want to do more and so a lot of folks talk a lot about new firearm purchasers being the folks driving. I don't know that. I think my data back that up. I'm certain folks were first time firearm purchasers in the in the surgeon. And that's a thing that's real. But i think what you have is. A lot of folks were stockpiling. Who already had a pretty sizable arsenal. But who are anxious folks by nature. And what's most troubling is a paper that my group just put out in the american journal preventive medicine a week or so ago showed that the folks who purchased firearms during this surge are substantially more likely lifetime past here and past month thoughts of suicide than our other firearm owners non-firearm owners and that's distinctly different than the pattern usually see firearm owners during the speaking more likely than anyone else have thoughts of suicide of getting a fire because suicide. All the here. Isn't that getting a fire. Made them soon. Silence the different grip. Folks are the ones who are purchasing. That what you're seeing as these. You know guns are flying off. The shelves in these shops is at folks who were elevated whisper. Suicide folks who maybe wouldn't have been purchasing wouldn't represents such a high percentage of the purchases are doing this and and that's a problem because they then have both the risk for wanting to die and the access and comfort with a method. That would make that plausible. So i don't in. And i don't want to be alarmist right yet. I don't want to say what we're doomed surgeon in suicides nor we're not necessarily in fact early reports are people aren't necessarily seeing that at least on a national scale but the cdc's where we get most this data including the data. When i was talking earlier about who's most likely to die. And that's typically delayed by up to two years right so we will really know the scale. The impact on suicide rates purchasing search for years and the reality is those firearms are gonna stay in the home long after what prompted someone to buy them in the first place. So that risk doesn't just go away if twenty twenty one doesn't have all these memes about being terrible year right like it's firearms are still there and so the risk is still there and these folks are more likely to be suicidal without risk is pronounced so unfortunately it's not that with twenty twenty twenty twenty one when that ball drops on new year's everything is perfect and great you know we're out of quarantine and we can run. It's not that it's automatically just going to be fine. Unfortunately i was really hoping for that for a bumper sticker. Yeah i will say though in times of stress. Sometimes actually suicide rates are lower that when people connect to something bigger than themselves even if they're isolated on an individual level they feel connected is something that can actually Protective against suicide at least temporarily. So you can see an a nine eleven. The problem was less about suicide right but it wasn't that nine eleven was a good day right and and so to some extent. We we want to be careful not to say that well suicide rates will be highest when things are stressful. That's not necessarily the case. It suicide rates can get higher when things are stressful for a society as a whole because it's easier than for someone to connect with the stress of their own life as an individual in particular professor. I'm wondering do you have any recommendations for folks. In terms of you know resources they can reach out to if they're having a rough time or are they know of someone who is i mean. For example we always include the national suicide hotline on oliver podcast. But i'm sure there are other resources that you could recommend so i mean i always would represent the euro or recommended national since prevention lifeline or the crisis. Text line right. Those are those are useful tools for sure. If folks aren't comfortable with that. I mean again. It depends on on where you're at right so there are are helps sources that are unique to veterans to transgender individuals to teenagers right and so finding something local or something. That's specific to your sense of self can be helpful because again we talked about salience earlier you can feel her and you can feel like you connect with the issue in a way. That's more like that resonate with you make you feel better. I always you know as a clinician would lean on what we call behavioral activation which it isn't a tough moment. Identify your values who you are as an individual and other. You're supposed to be not who someone else thank. You're supposed to be but like what what really makes you feel like the person you want to be. And whether that is somebody someone's feeling productive and just specifically scheduled time to be doing things that connect with the number of those values is in evidence based tool for treating depression. My favorite intervention us. Because you never asking your client to do something scary being what's the thing. Let's do that right but the reality is when when things get stressful action tend to get less motivated to do things make us feel good and so it. This isn't a phone number can call versus in a building. Something can go to you. But it's a resource tool something could use. Which is just make sure you take stock of what are your values and are you doing today to connect with those and identify that as a strength that some of the you're supposed to do not an indulgence. Not a sign of weakness but in fact an effort at at helping to solve your problems. I talked earlier about young. Americans being individualists pick themselves up by the bootstraps will. This is part of doing that though. Few folks connect with. I want to solve problems on. Go into this system. Or whatever it is that they're they're holding that keeps them from wanting to reach out with his something they can do on their own. And so i guess that's what i'd emphasizes for the folks again. 'cause books vulnerable firearms. Who set off engage with these tools. I don't wanna only advertise tools. If that's what you're going to go towards this is something you go towards the end and the last thing out there is look for smartphone apps a lot of them are bad and not evidence based but there are things like virtual box that have been subject to. Rt's they've been studied. They work and you can do those things on your smartphone and no one s to know. You're using them and they're useful tools. I hadn't even thought about that. The sort of points of access that you don't even have to talk and how that would actually probably really useful for a lot of folks especially now when everyone's kind of close quarters in that feared air i'm wondering if there are any other sort of interventions in general kelly s folks like ideal world. Why what are some interventions you love to see like on a wide scale sort of to get rolled out across the board. So i mean there's there's plenty what only nine years of my team just wrapped up a three year randomized controlled trial of legal means counseling. So it's a it's an intervention where you're talking to someone about how they might reduce access to specific methods pursue sunny in. This trial was with fire. Money members the mississippi national guards. You're talking specifically about firearms quite honestly. That's what i'd like to see. Rolled out for a number of reasons. It can be done without someone having a phd right. It doesn't require ten sessions with someone in an insurance policy. It's a conversation. We can have with someone that can also shift societal norms particularly within the community about the role of firearms and suicide and and health should think about storing their their firearms right. And so i think that problematic behaviors are usually sustain. Not because someone stubborn and wants to hurt themselves but because they perceive risk differently and i think that that folks perceive suicide risk is different than it is and because of that. There's reason for them to believe that that unsafe story. I define it is safe and wise and so i would wanna see google means. Counseling rolled out probably and practiced by folks who are credible sources within the firemen community. Because it'll shift those norms that'll shift those beliefs that people are intrinsically motivated to actively just like we all think about drinking and driving wearing seatbelts differently than folks did in the seventies right because we've come to internalize those useful behaviors and things. I are talking about today. Those aren't internalized is useful. Behaviors may sound like a gun. Grab from a bunch of liberal academics and advocates which isn't a great sales pitch and so rolling. That means counseling on. Probably i think is a way to get the message out of the voice of someone like me and into the voice of someone who has credibility amongst folks need to hear the message. I thirty almost stunned by the point you made about how when we look at suicide rates sometimes people will read them as will these people who are the most miserable rather than these are the people who have misery plus access and i think when you talk about it that way it makes it clear around how to as you said how to make sure that we are talking to people in a that. They can understand that they're comfortable with because it is urgent and need it and it's not just about how can we talk about it and sort of removed way. But how can we actually get to people. And i just feel like the way you phrased that really urgency across. No i appreciate that. I think that yeah people will look at what we're saying here and say you're missing the core of the issue you should focus on. What makes someone get that point in the first place and what i always say in response is. I'm not arguing against doing that. You can do both. It's a false choice. So when i talk about don't drink and drive. That doesn't mean it's okay to not wear your seatbelt. it just means about. Don't drink and drive. you also shouldn't failed. Put on your seatbelt when we talk about limiting access. It isn't because we don't care about someone's misery it's that we don't exclusively care about someone's misery and that in fact in order to help them with their misery we have to first make sure they're alive anybody you took intro to psych heard about maslow's hierarchy of needs and and in order to get the self actualization You need to be breathing. F- food and a roof over your head. That's where i met him at that. Part of the maslow's hierarchy needs is. I need to get the basic thing taking care of that we can do the important work to to those higher goals people wanna rush to those higher goals. I in it hasn't worked as firesuits. Every rate goes up every year. This is just been been so helpful. I wanna i wanna thank you so much dr necessarily this. This has been great. I feel like we need to have eighteen or podcasts on this topic so i'm hoping you can come back but i think that this is an excellent starter and highly recommend that everyone goes and checks out your work not just your but some of the most recent articles have lengthened the scripture of this episode because i think that they explain i think really. Well what's actually going on out there. Thank you so. I certainly appreciate what you guys are doing really enjoyed talking to you guys about this kelly. What's not going to be good. I feel like i'm torturing you and our listeners with these are a while today we go to a school in california k. A teacher in high school and seaside california. He was teaching a class in of course called administration of justice which is a class. I'd be there. He was teaching a lesson about gun. Safety that's no worthy okay. Great i feel like when i was in highschool lead that would have never been of course right but anyway So this this teacher who i would like to point out is also a reserve police officer. He took his gun out and pointed it at the ceiling. Rule when it misfired. Oh no and. I was injured by bullet fragments. That ricocheted off the ceiling and launched into his neck. That's terrible yeah. No one was seriously injured but the quote unquote indirectly from the article. At the boy's parents were shocked when he returned home with blood on his shirt and bullet fragments in his neck. They didn't even take him to earn no one in the class that he do. No no one said anything until he got home. Ge's the the the parents had actually called the police to report it themselves. That bad yeah and so because of that. The teacher has been placed on administrative leave from his teaching job from his position at the sand city. California police department. There's there's one piece that i want to include. Which is that. Even even. If he had a concealed carry permit which. I'm hoping he did he. You're not as teacher. You're not legally permitted to have firearms in california classrooms. They don't they don't allow although there are some states that do allow teachers to carry right and the second thing and this is the thing that i kind of wanted to focus a. There's a lot of awful things in this. The thing that gets me is that the teacher had told the class that he wants to make sure his gun wasn't loaded before he used it to demonstrate how to disarm someone so this could have gone so much worse than it than ended up going. Wow i mean yeah. There are a lot of levels to this. I think again. If he's a member of law enforcement than that's the prototypical person you would assume what at least some sort of experience. I think it just goes to show the troubling implications of people who are saying. Let's arm teachers. But then too i find it unbelievable that no one thought to get the kid checked out and make sure he was okay in say that is shocking and number three. Of course the incident in enough himself this week we start by looking back to november thirtieth nineteen ninety-three when the brady bill after years of relentless advocacy by brady's namesake's driven sarah brady was finally signed into law. Now as we've talked about in the podcast before. Jim brady was shot along with secret. Service agent timothy mccarthy in district of columbia police officer thomas delancey and the nineteen eighty one assassination attempt of president. Reagan brady survived. Though the injury left him with partial paralysis that required the fulltime useful wheelchair an permanent side effects so much so that when he passed away in two thousand fourteen his death was ruled homicide from the shooting in the wake of the shooting in one thousand nine hundred one jim his wife. Sarah began their tireless efforts for gun violence prevention giving birth. You know to brady. One of their major victories was the brady bill. This legislation mandates federal background checks firearm purchasers and imposed a five day waiting period on purchases until the national instant criminal background check system knicks was implemented in one thousand nine hundred eight. The brady background check system has been extremely successful since it was established in one thousand. Nine hundred four. It's prevented over three point. Five million prohibited gun transactions. And you know just for example in two thousand fifteen alone over six hundred. Nineteen prohibited gun. Transactions were prevented every single day we also have to market sat remembrance this week that of the mass shooting in san bernardino california on december. Second of twenty fifteen. The shooting which occurred during a training event and christmas party for the san bernardino county department of public health left fourteen dead and twenty two injured. The two shooters were a married couple. Who were according to the fbi. Homegrown violent extremists who been radicalized on the internet. It remains one of the deadliest mass shootings in the us. Finally gun violence continues in cities across the us to stay in california over the black friday weekend in sacramento a nineteen year old and a seventeen year. Old boy were killed following a shooting at the arden fair mall. The two boys were identified as dwayne and saquon read whose failing had moved to california to get away from gun violence in louisiana. The perpetrator of the shooting is still unidentified. The boy's aunt sharon jackson address the public with this statement quote. If you're afraid to be seen they have anonymous numbers somebody speak up. This is not one family member we have to bury this is to to. When is somebody going to do something. When i've a message wanna share. the podcast. listeners. Can get in touch with us here at redland brady via phone or text message simply call or text us at four zero seven four four three four five two with your thoughts questions concerns ideas. Whatever you feel like sharon but numbers there and if you want to support this podcast embrace efforts to prevent gun violence. We have a way for you to do that. As we move into the holiday season in the end of a very interesting twenty twenty we're participating in giving tuesday it's called a global generosity movement and this day is all about unleashing the power of people in organizations to transform the world that is why a brady donors have generously offered to match everydollar up. Thirty thousand dollars if you enjoy this podcast and want to help end. The epidemic of gun violence please consider making a donation every dollar you give before midnight. Go directly to brady's efforts to end gun violence and save lives. You can join him by clicking the link in the description of this episode and already. Thank you so much for your support. Thanks for listening as always. Brady's life saving work in congress. The courts in communities across the country is made possible. Thanks to you for more information on breeding or how to get voltdb fight against gun. Violence police like subscribe to the podcast. Get in touch with us at brady. United dot org or follow us on social at brady butts. Be brave and remember take action do.

us brady aubrey Kellyanne dr michael new jersey gun violence resear new jersey violence research c university of southern mississ soussan thomas joiner kellyanne rutgers julie cyril School of public health cova estes sri lanka
104: Does Buying a Gun During Lockdown Increase Your Risk of Suicide?

Red, Blue, and Brady

45:06 min | 11 months ago

104: Does Buying a Gun During Lockdown Increase Your Risk of Suicide?

"This is the legal disclaimer where he told you. The views thoughts and opinions shared on this. Podcast belong solely to our guests on hosts and not necessarily brady aubrey's affiliates. Please note this. Podcast contains discussions of violence. That some people may find disturbing. It's okay you find it disturbing to. Hey everyone welcome back to red brady and twenty twenty so far. According to the new york times nearly two point five million americans bought a firearm for the first time meanwhile as cova nineteen continues and so does physical isolation rising unemployment rates concerns about domestic violence and so much more many have worried that suicide rates and suicidal asian may increase as well so big question does buying a gun during covid. Increase your risk of suicide well. New research does show that those who fought firearms during the pandemic are more likely to deal with suicidal ita asian than pre existing gun owners to break down what this actually means. Kellyanne on your speaking with. Dr michael anastas the executive director of the new jersey gun violence research center and associate professor at the rutgers school of public health than are unbelievable but segment. Kelly discuss white. Guns don't belong in schools. Final news roundup. We're talking about the brady. Bill passed mass shooting and the continuance of gun violence in communities across the us doctrine <span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Dr. Anestis, thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited to start digging down into your work and everything that you do, so I'm wondering if you can just start maybe by just having you introduce yourself to our audience?</span><div>Yeah, sure. So I'm Mike Anestis, I am as of just this past July, the executive director of the New Jersey Gun Violence Research Center, and an associate professor of Urban Global Public Health at Rutgers. But for the eight years leading up to this summer, I had been a core faculty member in the clinical psychology program at University of Southern Mississippi, so a real big jump from the Deep South back to where I spent most of my life, which is the Northeast. And in terms of my work, I am a suicide researcher by trade, and so I worked with Thomas Joiner at Florida State in graduate school and have spent the last 15 plus years really focused on suicide prevention. But, you know, sort of most relevant to our conversation today over the last half-decade or so my work has become increasingly focused on the role of firearms in suicide, both in the military but but also just generally speaking across the US.</div><div>Well, and I think that that sort of begs the question of,and I'm always so curious about when people choose to kind of focus their studies in a particular way, what got you into this particular niche? Because I know, for example, when I think Kelly and I both done this when we're at a party and someone says, “what do you do? So they are working in gun violence prevention?” It's not always exactly the happy, fun thing to study or to work in. And so what got you into this field?</div><div>Yeah, you know, I think, you know, the most inspiring stories on how folks find their way to their work are often personal narratives of things that happen; and to be perfectly honest, that's not really how I got here on this. I think that I first got into suicide research just because I wanted to do some good in the world and I like complicated problems, and that's what this is. So it felt like a chance to work on something that’s difficult, that maybe would help somebody. And then obviously, living in the Deep South for the last really, it was over 10 years, and you factor in graduate school and residency and all this stuff, I was down there for a long time. And firearms are so much more present there than they are where I grew up. Growing up in southwestern Connecticut, it just really wasn't on my radar, all that much. In fact, I grew up just a couple towns down from where Sandy Hook took place, and so it was a real perspective shift. And I, again, always prefer to be someone who's trying to solve a problem and not just complain about it. And so feeling very different than a lot of my community in the Deep South on these and a lot of other issues, I figured I could rant and rave and argue with people or I could sort of take my nerdy niche set of skills and apply them to a problem, again, that maybe could do some good. And so that's sort of where I ended up. I think I’m a person who is relatively good at getting along with folks, and so maybe I'm positioned to do some work in this space where people fight a lot and not be someone who's fighting with people, but instead fighting to sort of make a difference.</div><div>It's interesting you talked about, you know, different types of stories and narratives and how they're inspiring, because I actually find it very inspiring that you wanted to do some good and wanted to do some good in an area that's hard, and confronted it head-on. Because I know in previous podcasts about suicide, especially one of the things that comes out is how we have to talk about it and we have to face it head-on and not treat it as sort of a secret. So I actually</div><div>I find it very, very inspiring that you went towards it. And I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind talking a little bit about your book, which is entitled, Guns and Suicide: an American Epidemic, and wondering why you defined it as an epidemic, and why that public health framing is necessary.</div><div>Yeah, sure. And that's a word I chose really carefully. And also, thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate that. Epidemic is a word that I think a lot of folks may push, would pushback on for a number of reasons. When you talk about some immediate guidelines for talking about suicide, one of the things people will will mention is that you don't want to sensationalize things, you don't want to, you know, create the headline, and just to get people revved up without a sense of a solution. And I’m mindful of that, but like you said, suicide is something we need to talk about, we need to handle it head-on. And so I also didn't want to beat around the bush. And so what I was looking for was a word that highlighted the scope of an issue that people quite frankly, just don't realize, is such a big issue, right? And so you have to use a big enough word to get their attention. And I also think that people think about epidemic and you know, especially in a pandemic moment brand right now is a really scary term. But says. just like the moment we’re in right now, is scary, it also comes with an end, right? Like people have worked inspiringly hard to come up with a vaccine to get us on the other side of this, right? Like epidemics cause a lot of harm and a lot of tragedy, but there are also things you can solve if you're willing to figure out how to do it, right? And so I looked at ‘epidemic’ as an appropriately strong term to say this is causing untold harm in our country, and we can probably solve it, but not if we keep on the same path we've been on.</div><div></div><div>I think the using and framing like epidemic, though, too, I think goes back to what you mentioned earlier a little bit with that idea of like firearms and culture and firearms culture, and people's comfortableness with firearms and the type of firearms they're comfortable with. I think that's so different across the US, and I think we have a lot of international listeners, and I think that's something that it's sometimes hard to explain is that the US is huge. And it is very different regionally, and folks’ relationship with firearms are different. But everyone interacts with an epidemic, everyone interacts with public health, although COVID has shown us that that itself is very regional and very different. So I just think it's important to flag too, sort of how it universalizes that experience. I wonder if, there's a few times I'm going to do this to you and I hate to ask you to speak for all Americans, but why do you think that Americans, in general, don't know or appear to feel very uncomfortable talking about suicide, especially firearm suicide? When we know that the majority of gun deaths are suicides, and we know that the majority of suicide deaths are gun deaths. You know, why is there this strange separation happening from reality?</div><br><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">So I don't think there's one answer, I think there's a few things that sort of stand out, you know, the obvious one would be things like stigma, right? So there are a lot of sort of cultural norms around talking about feelings and demonstrating, you know, what someone might think of as weakness or an inability to solve problems, right? You think of America as a very individualist society or culture is very much about, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and find your way to a solution. And the way I think people think about suicide is that it's something that weak people do, they call it the easy way out, even though it's actually exceedingly difficult to do, right? And so no one wants to be identified as that. And so I think there are a lot of cultural norms that, that cause people to not seek help, to underreport their thoughts of suicide; and because of this, that impacts the conversation and how people think about it, right? So that's one aspect of it is that it's sort of this secret due to stigma. I think the other part of it, though, that is maybe less obvious, and most important, I think particularly in terms of firearm suicide, is this idea of salience, right? And so most people just feel like that's something that happens to someone else. Even though the great scientists like Julie Cyril have shown how many of us are considered loss survivors and who have been impacted by suicide in one way or another, it still tends to be something I think that people think about as something that happens to someone else. And so if you think about that from the firearm owner’s perspective, right, they understand that accidents are a problem. And so you want to make sure that, you know, you keep the firearm out of reach of your child, maybe and that's salient. But the idea that you should take this firearm and store it out of the home, or make it more difficult to access, well that doesn't make sense because what's salient to that individual is that somebody might break into their home in the middle of the night and threaten them and their family. So to be able to reach the firearm and here I am telling them “No, lock it up, stored, unloaded, in fact, get it out of the home”, and that sounds like lunacy to them, because suicide is something happens to someone else, right? And so because I don't think we've done a very good job of helping folks connect with the idea that suicide isn't a sign of weakness, and it isn't something that happens to some other person, it happens to everybody across all walks of life. In fact, if you close your eyes and picture a suicidal person, I bet that what you picture has very little to do with the reality of day-to-day American suicide.</span>Thank you so much for for joining us today. I am so excited to start digging down into into your work everything that you do so i'm wondering if we can just start by just having you introduce yourself to our audience. Yeah sure estes. I am as just this past july. The executive director of the new jersey gun violence research center and an associate professor of urban global public health at rutgers but for the eight years. They didn't up to this summer. I had been a core faculty member in the clinical psychology program at university of southern mississippi. So aerobic jumped from the deep south back to where i spent most of my life. Which is the northeast and in terms of my work. I m soussan researcher by trade. And so i work with thomas joiner at florida state in graduate school and have spent the last fifteen plus years really focused on suicide prevention but most relevant to our conversation today over the last half decade or so. My work has become increasingly focused on the role of firearms in suicide. Open the military but but also just generally speaking across the us. And i think that sort of begs the question I'm always curious about what people choose to focus their studies in a particular way. What got you into this particular niche. Because i know for example what i i think kellyanne both done. We're at a party and someone says what you do. Is the gun violence prevention. It's not always exactly. That's not the the happy fun thing to study or to work in. And so what got you into this. Yeah you know. I think the most inspiring stories on how folks find their way to their work are often personal narratives of things happen and to be perfectly honest. That's not really how i got here on this. I think i. I got into suicide research just because i wanted to do some good in the world and i like complicated problems. And that's what this feel like a chance to work on some incidents difficult that that maybe would help somebody and then obviously living in the deep south for the last really. It was over ten years. And you factor in graduate school and residency and all the stuff. That's down there for a long time. And firearms are so much more present there than they are. Where i grew up a grownup in southwestern connecticut. It just really wasn't my radar all that much. In fact i grew up just a couple of towns down from where sandy took took place and so it was real perspective shift and i again always prefer to be. Someone's trying to solve a problem and not just complain about it and and so feeling very different than a lot of my community in the deep south on these in a lot of other issues. I figured i could rant and rave and and argue with people where i could sort of take my nerdy niche set of skills and apply them to a problem again. That maybe do some good and so that's sort of i ended up. I think i'm a person is relatively good at getting along with folks and so maybe position to to do some work in this space where people fight a lot and not be someone who's who's fighting people but instead of instead of saudi make a difference to thing you talked about different types of stories and narratives in how they're in firing 'cause i i actually find it very inspiring that you wanted to do some good and wanted to do some good and area that's hard and confronted it head on because i know in previous podcast about suicide especially one of the things that comes out is how we have to talk about it and we have to face it head on and not treat it as sort of a secret so i actually find it very very inspiring you went towards it and i was wondering if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about your book which is entitled guns and suicide an american epidemic and wondering why you defined it as an epidemic and why that public health frame as necessary. Yeah sure and that's a word. I chose really carefully and also thank you for the kind words. I really appreciate that Epidemic is a word that i think a lot of may be pushed pushed back on for a number of reasons when you talk about social media guidelines talking about suicide one of the things people will will mention his it. You don't wanna sensationalize things you don't want to create the headline. And just to get people revved up without a sense of a solution and mindful that but like you said suicide is something need to talk about. We need to handle it head on. And so i also didn't want to beat around the bush. And so what i was looking for was a word that highlighted the scope of an issue. That people quite. Frankly just don't realize is such a big issue right and so you have to use a big enough to get their attention. And i also think that people think about apodaca especially in in a pandemic moment brand right now as as a really scary term but just like the marin right now is is scary it also comes with an end right like people were conspiring hard to come up with vaccine to get us on the other side of this right like epidemics caused a lot of harm and a lot of tragedy. But they're also things you can solve if you're willing to figure out how to do it right. And so. I looked epidemic as an appropriately strong term to says it say this is causing untold harm in our country and we can probably solve it but not if we keep on the same path. We've been on. I think the using framing epidemic too. I think goes back to what you mentioned earlier with idea of firearms culture and firearms culture and people's comfortableness with firearms in type of firearms. They're comfortable with. I think that's so different across the us. And i think we have a lot of international listeners. And i think that's something that it's sometimes hard to explain that the us is huge and it is very different. Regionally and folks relationship with firearms are different but everyone interacts with nepotistic. Everyone interacts with public health. Although cova has shown us that that itself is very regional and in very different. So i i think it's important to flag to sorta pellets universalize. Is that experience. I wonder if a there's a few times i'm going to do this to you. And i hate to ask you to to speak for all americans. But why do you think that americans in general don't now or or appear. You'll very uncomfortable talking about suicide especially firearm suicide. When we know that the majority of gun deaths are suicides and we know that the majority of suicide deaths are gun. Deaths you know. Why is there this strange separation happening from reality. So i don't think there's one answer i think there's a few things that sorta stand out e. n. The obvious one would be things like stigma right to. There are a lot of sort of cultural norms around talking about feelings and and demonstrating what someone might think of as weakness or inability to solve problems. Right you think of america very individualist society or culture is very much about pull yourself up by your bootstraps and find your way to a solution. And the way i think people think about suicide is that it's something that we people do. They call it the easy way out. Even though it's exceedingly difficult to do right and so no one wants to be identified as that and so i think there are a lot of cultural norms that that caused people to not seek help under report their thoughts of suicide and because of this that that impacts the conversation how people think about right so that's one aspect of it is that it's sort of this secret duty to stigma. I think the other part of it though. That is maybe less obvious. Most important i think particularly in terms of firearm suicide is is this idea of salience right at and so most people just feel like that's something that happens to someone else. Even though the great scientists like julie cyril shown how many of us are are considered lost survivors and who have been impacted by suicide. One way or another in still tends to be something. I think that people think about something happens to someone else. And so if you think about that from the firearm owners perspective right they understand. The accidents are problem. And so you want to make sure that you keep the fire out of reach of your child. Maybe in nets salient. But the idea that you should take firearm and stored out at home or make it more difficult to access well. That doesn't make sense. Because what salient to that individuals that somebody might break into their home in the middle night threatened. Them and their family sent to reach the firearm. And here i am telling them no lock it up. Sort unloaded in fact. Get it out of the home and that sounds like lunacy to them because suicide is something happens to someone else and so because i don't think we've done a very good job of helping folks connect with the idea. That suicide isn't a sign of weakness and it doesn't something that happens to some other person happens to everybody across all walks of life in fact if you close your eyes and picture out of person i bet what you picture as very little do a reality of day to day american suicide. We've done such a poor job getting that message across that people haven't connected with the idea that would motivate change and when motivate the conversation to map onto. The data is interesting that you talked about the idea of salience and you know suicide being something remote the happens out there and other people because one of the things that i think i've thought myself in the past and i've heard before he says idea also that sort of this uncontrollable unstoppable thing. You can't really intervene. And so i'm wondering if you could talk about. What is what a suicide prevention at me. And why does it matter. Yeah so suicide is is complicated and it is difficult to intervene. I spent a long time. And i talked to committee members about how the help their loved ones being like. You don't have the impression that you can necessarily see this coming in and know what to do. That's hard joe. Franklin show that we are no better now they were. We were in the nineteen fifties it perspectively predicting death by suicide and the experts are just better than a coin. Flip right so there's some sense of this is difficult intervene. It just isn't impossible right and so question. What is suicide. prevention was a good one to me at its core. It's prevent people from dying intentionally at their own hands right and so that's the basic baseline thing to do. It goes beyond that. I mean suicide. Prevention also becomes about helping people live life worth living and find happiness enjoy in thriving. It's helping attempt survivors. You know step out of the shadows and have their voices heard and so. It isn't just about preventing death. My works about preventing death because so much of the work leading up to this has been about helping people feel better and in so we've failed to prevent people from dying that to flip the script around and said suicide prevention at its core really is about preventing death from there we then do the important vital work of helping people happy fulfilling lives but i need them to be alive for that to happen and so suicide preventions about finding ways to prevent an individual from dying again. It comes back. I think to us not having great language around this because he's new conversations to the idea that yet for example someone said to me harm reduction strategies for xyz for like to make people stop smoking or go okay. Great like i know what those things are. I know how to make that happen for suicide prevention. It just seems much more difficult and much more complex and because it's uncomfortable. I think people sort of shy away from it in a big way. Yeah and i think that people struggle to just because you know there are a couple things you could try to do and suicide prevention. You can try to make some feel better so they don't want to die by suicide but you can make it harder for someone to die by suicide even though they still might want to. And we all have the tendency to want to just make someone feel better and there are evidence based tools at work for that right those dialectical behavior therapy cognitive therapy. Their tools that exist in. And i'm not here to diminish them but the general actual sort of marketplace of what happens when people try to make people feel better isn't evidence based treatments that are particularly effective. And so it feels. I think to a lot of folks like a lost cause or a system that ends up feeling not so great whereas suicide prevention. Its core is about making it more difficult to happen so that people are less likely to act on the thoughts which most people actually don't ever do right and so much. My work of in in suicide prevention is getting people to understand that if you can intervene and prevent someone from using a specific method to attempt suicide. This there's a good chance they'll never attempt to any method ever. It just doesn't seem to most folks like that's the case. I'm thinking that that then sort of leads into this intersection of we're getting more and more researchers now like yourself or more folks who are also working at advocacy as well and i'm wondering if you could talk about that. Interplay of having more and more we see more and more activism more and more advocates in the space who this this is also what they've been educated it. This is what they're training and sort of the importance of actually having folks at the table. Who we've got survivors. We've got people who carried. Leave us but then we also have folks that are like. Here's my standard table. Let's discuss and so. I wonder if you can talk about that a little bit. Why that's so important. Yeah i mean. I don't know that my perspective unfortunately maps on to all my peers perspective on this. I keep asking you to speak in generalities for everyone. But i think that's the problem right and so the the system that's currently in place the sustains researchers career wise incentivizes peer reviewed publications and conference presentations. And that's how we get ten years tenure and promotion than all these sort of accolades right and respect from peers. And in fact. It's not just that you're not rewarded for being to the public or or making your voice heard or promoting work. It said in a lot always looked down upon. And so there's there's a problem in that. Scientists tend to remove themselves from the conversation and then be completely astounded. That nobody is listening to them when they in fact never spoke which is maddening to me right and so i think it's vital. I think that the country overall and we're racine well beyond just gun. Violence has a problem where there's not much of a belief in science or an understanding in science or or a sense that science should guide policy and decision making and that's a problem because science historically been pretty great tool for advancing our ability to do some good stuff right and so i think it's vital not because scientists are smarter than everyone but because scientists are doing hard work and feeling more often than not but occasionally stumbling upon some knowledge that isn't obvious rightly like so much of our conversation as but about like. This isn't how people would obviously think about it. But it's working out right and so that shows you that. Yeah it's important to study these things but then it's important to talk about what you studied. Otherwise we'd knows anything about it and in the absence of the voice of scientists isn't even a vacuum. It's worse it's the presence of pseudoscience and stuff that sounds into the but is misguided and wrong and in some cases. Harmful right and so. I think it's vital. It's tricky because to the extent that that i am certain that there are scientists who would see me being on this podcast and be dismissive of me as a scientist. Because they'd say well he's a political actor. But i'm not right. I mean certainly political opinions about firearms just like every other human in this this country but you have to speak about things in order for people to care about them. And i think that the last day stopgap because there's a long answer i know but most folks don't want to hear from scientists in terms of the our credibility is pretty low and the only way we're gonna address that is by changing the perception that we are becoming central related relatable folks who will be willing to take the time to talk about stuff and make it interesting and to the extent that we are unwilling to do that. There's nothing that's going to change about our role in impacting policy. When no i think that's a really important point because one of the things that comes up a lot i think is because of this. This lack of trust or lack of credible reporters. There are a lot of myths about gun suicide out there or firearm suicide. And so i would love. Maybe we can take minutes to try to talk about that a little bit. I think that that's important. Yeah there are myths. That i think are worth taking a moment. Talk about because the really intuitively appealing. And if you latch onto them than just about everything. I'm saying is going to sound like nonsense and understandably so and so might be. We're taking a moment to talk about a couple of them. One of them would be. Hey if you stop from someone from using a firearm. Won't they just find another method and another would be if this is really about preventing people from using firearms wise. The suicide rate so high in a place like japan or south korea where it's nearly impossible to get access to a firearm insulin. The first one they won't they just find another way or means substitution. The answer's no. The data shows pretty. Clearly they don't. That's why when i gave all those examples earlier of sri lanka in the uk. The suicide rate overall went down just that method. No one's interested in changing out. Someone dies by suicide among prevent them from dying by suicide and so the data shows pretty clearly in. It's not what tends to happen. But even if you don't believe those data the reality is as we said earlier. Folks are so much more likely to survive other methods that he'd be brent them from using a firearm chances articles survive and as we said earlier survived or not that likely to attend. So even if you dismiss all the data showing people don't swap methods. I'd still rather than a swamp methods if they were gonna use a firearm because they're more likely to survive so that's one of the mets said look don't tend to find another way and if they did though survive more likely than not and civil save lives over the long run a the other one but what about other countries where. It's harder to get a firearm. That really goes back to what we were talking earlier. Which is not the same answer every place you know. The snarky answer would be imagine how high the suicide rates in japan after it would be if it didn't firearms but the reality is different. Cultures developed a script of. What suicide means. I'm what looks like an how people think about it. And how they act upon their thoughts and what they do in those those scripts can be localized at a national level. They can be localized the state level. That can be localized within a family. Group it can shift right but the reality is if you look at specific areas. We are identify specific problem. That's the problem you have to solve an in the us. It's a firearm problem. In somewhere down the line. If the firearm suicide rate dwindled zero something else would become a bigger should. Maybe we'll hang themselves more. Maybe some other method comes in right. Well that point we'd have to address that too but think about all the lies you would have saved the interest rate and so the idea. Isn't that firearms are the root causes suicide. it's that they are really pivotal component of suicide in the united states and point of intervention. Bre- actually have an opportunity to save a lot of lives at a scale. That people tend to underestimate. Actually super fascinating. I we talk a lot about how when we're talking about gun. Violence at least there are so many intersections and so many connections. That may not be apparently obvious in hearing you connect this general movement towards the dish trust in science to come. I think is really key. So i'm really glad that you impact that because it is true. I think there's a lot of intuitive things around safety and risk in gun. Violence brit large not to mention suicide prevention. And to the point about evidence versus our intuitions. Or what we suspect. I know at one point earlier. You ask you said if we were to close your eyes and picture a person who was having suicidal allegations we might be wrong and so i was wondering if you could impact the statistics around who is at highest risk for firearm suicide. And then also how did you determine that. Yeah sure and so. You're know the typical american suicide is going to be a white male mandalay's older who dies on their first suicide attempt using a handgun that they've owned for a decade or more. The folks around that individual are going to be left behind saint. I never saw this coming a must have come out of nowhere. 'cause they didn't talk to me about it. And that's the the general pattern now. Obviously this is not just a white problem. This isn't something where we should ignore other groups. This is not just a male problem. This is not just an older adult problem. And it's not just a firearm problem right. So that's the typical presentation. it's not the only presentation but that's what you're seeing and then within that you have subgroups so folks who served in the military folks who live in rural areas firearm owners people who people have increased access to in comfort with firearms. essentially what. You're gonna get it. So first responders law enforcement and some of those populations over lapped quite a bit right and it isn't necessarily their identity with those groups that bestow the risks so much as just the access to comfort with with the most lethal method for suicide. Now that's the fire officers. I picture right. So you can expand beyond that and talk about increased risk amongst veterinarians who are gonna use vitol in their suicide attempts right. That's not as relevant to this conversation with the ideas that the folks most likely to die by suicide in america are the folks who have ready access to comfort with methods with actually a highly saudi rate. They're actually likely to cause death. Folks don't realize it's only two three percent of intentional overdoses resulting in death whereas eighty five to ninety five percent of firearm suicide. Him stephen and a much. Higher percentage of phenobarbitol overdoses rights veterinarians. Have this high suicide death rate instead of just attempt rate and so it's it's really about who is equipped to act on their misery. Not who's most miserable. But who has the ability to do something about these thoughts that aren't necessarily more pervasive or pernicious than other folks suicidal thoughts. They just happened to be paired with this access in this comfort. And so i think when most folks close your eyes on thinking about that method that access component. They're just thinking about the misery they think. Well who's the people who are most likely to be miserable. Niklas rising think of that. And those folks deserve attention again trying to deflect away from that and just highlighting that we so often miss a large swath of the folks who actually likely to die by suicide in fact our entire suits prevention of healthcare system is designed to wait for someone to raise their hand and say i need help and then we hopefully direct them. The evidence based care When the reality is we mentioned earlier. Is that a lot of these folks. Don't wanna see care. And they don't wanna tell you their thoughts and that's why we all say we never saw coming. We just think about it the wrong way and with firearms being as lethal as they are as a means. It's not a case. Where sally if someone just something they shouldn't have. There's time generally call nine one and two to manage that way. Whereas i believe firearms are there. Overwhelmingly lethal yeah. It's eighty five to ninety five percent of firearm suicides attempts result in death again compared to that two to three percent figure for for overdose. So it's it's it's really a huge contrast and what's really tragic about that is seventy percent of folks who saw five in attempt temple never attempt again right and so second chances obviously matter but folksy. He's a highly recommend that. Don't get a second chance almost ever and you can see that in fact that i've tried to recruit samples research studies of folks who survived firearm suicide attempts. And the fact is it's almost impossible because there are so few it's it's it's even difficult to study on that front. And so just a uniquely sort of rare group of folks and hard region it highlights the fact that the method really made such a difference in the outcome. I wanna make sure that we give people a call to action. You know something that. At least they can do if they're listening to this and they're starting to get concerned or if they had concerns and that's why they're listening to this in the first place so i'm wondering you know. What would you recommend in terms of just general policies especially for folks who have firearms in their home. Yeah and so. This point is not exclusive firearms. It's the it's the primary focus in the us. You can look across the globe at crossley at this and the ideas when you are able to either reduce the league of america d- or reduce the access to the method if it's a highly lethal and highly economies method geographic area. You're going to lower the rate and so you can see that. In the fact that when they detoxify domestic gas in the uk in the mid twentieth century the suicide rate went down forty percent when they banned the most lethal brands of pesticides in sri lanka last couple decades their nationals. Who are down by fifty percent right and so it's not the same story in every single location. It's the story that maps onto that location in the us stories firearms because it's more than half the suicide deaths right. It's a top fifteen cause of death in its own right in the us as firearm suicide. And so there's not one single way to do it but it's a you can't really make a firearm less lethal it is what it is and so it's about limiting access in this case and that doesn't mean a gun grabbed. That doesn't mean you know. Abolish the second amendment. But i mean such a couple of things people when when we're doing lethal needs counseling and we talk about generally storing firearms more safety from suicide prevention standpoints. I mean story. Them unloaded separate from ammo in a secure location like unsafe or lock box and quite frankly ideally ellsworth By on it so trigger. Lock lock right but not everybody's gonna be opened it that whole some cascade of interventions and we quickly don't have data showing which one which combo is the most effective but the other thing we emphasize is that book in times of stress for yourself or anyone else might have access to a firearm. You wanna stored away from hall. Make sure you're mindful of local restrictions on temporary transfers of firearms of the you're not committing a felony in an effort to save someone's life but yeah firearm. That's not in. The home is a lot less dangerous than one that is and we don't think about going to buy a fire extinguisher when the houses already on fire the same. So you'd probably shouldn't think about louis the firearm. When you're you're most suicidal probably wanna think about it as having some plans ahead of time for his things start to go down a certain path. I know how to do this on comfortable. That doesn't feel like it's infringing on my rights split also allows for us to protect the individuals at risk. And it's interesting you talked about access and stressed and sort of acute stress versus thinking ahead because one of the things that we've been thinking a lot of our reports that firearm purchases have searched and the fear that that may also cause a surge in firearm suicides. And i'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about what has been driving the increase in purchases of firearms during the pandemic so. I don't know that we know for sure. What's driving it right. So we have some preliminary data from iowa from other places that give us a sense of things. We have sort of related research in the general sense. I guess there's a lot of things contributing to the unprecedented firearm purchasing surge in twenty twenty. It's mostly driven by anxiety. Anxiety itself comes from a variety of sources whether that's the pandemic whether that was contentious presidential election rather that's a response to the racial justice movement whether that's of a response to just reports of increased gun violence or decreased stock of firearms and ammunition that will be available. There's all these different things would drive somebody to think. This is the moment. I need to do this right but from work. That my friend. Craig ryan and i have been putting out a sort of a string papers recently. Our general senses that a lot of folks who are driving this purchasing surge. Have this general sense that the world is dangerous. People are untrustworthy. That there's a lot of uncertainty in the world and uncertainty hard thing to tolerate that the firearm itself as a tool that makes an individual feel a sense of safety upon acquisition. And so while they were feeling stressed before they got this and that made them feel better. And that's reinforcing and it's gonna prompt you the next time you're feel anxious to want to do more and so a lot of folks talk a lot about new firearm purchasers being the folks driving. I don't know that. I think my data back that up. I'm certain folks were first time firearm purchasers in the in the surgeon. And that's a thing that's real. But i think what you have is. A lot of folks were stockpiling. Who already had a pretty sizable arsenal. But who are anxious folks by nature and what's most troubling is a paper that my group just put out in the american journal preventive medicine a week or so ago showed that the folks who purchased firearms during this surge are substantially more likely. Have lifetime past here. And past month thoughts of suicide than our other firearm owners non-firearm owners and that's distinctly different than the pattern usually see firearm owners during the speaking more likely than anyone else have thoughts of suicide of getting a fire because achey suicidal and the argument here isn't that getting a fire made them suicidal. It's different grip. Folks are the ones who are purchasing. That what you're seeing as these guns are flying off the shelves in these shops. Is that folks who were elevated whisper. Suicide folks who maybe wouldn't have been purchasing wouldn't represents such a high percentage of the purchases are doing this and and that's a problem because they then have both the risk for wanting to die and the access and comfort with a method. That would make that plausible. So i don't in. And i don't want to be alarmist right yet. I don't want to say what we're doomed surgeon in suicides. We're not necessarily in fact early. Reports are people aren't necessarily seeing that at least on a national scale but the cdc's where we get most this data including the data. When i was talking earlier about who's most likely to die. And that's typically delayed by up to two years right so we will really know the scale. The impact on suicide rates purchasing search for years and the reality is those firearms are gonna stay in the home long after what prompted someone to buy them in the first place. So that risk doesn't just go away if twenty twenty one doesn't have all these memes about being a terrible year it's firearms are still there and so the risk is still there and these folks are more likely to be suicidal without risk is pronounced so unfortunately it's not that with twenty twenty twenty twenty one when that ball drops on new year's if everything is perfect and great you know we're out of quarantine and we can run. It's not that it's automatically just going to be fine. Unfortunately i was really hoping for that for a bumper sticker. Yeah i will say though in times of stress. Sometimes actually suicide rates are lower that when people connect to something bigger than themselves even if they're isolated on an individual level they feel connected is something that can actually Protective against suicide at least temporarily. So you can see an a nine eleven. The problem was less about suicide right but it wasn't that nine eleven was a good day right and and so to some extent. We we want to be careful not to say that well suicide rates will be highest when things are most stressful. That's not necessarily the case. It suicide rates can get higher when things are stressful for a society as a whole because it's easier than for someone to connect with the stress of their own life as an individual in particular professor. I'm wondering do you have any recommendations for folks in terms of resources. They can reach out to if they're having a rough time or are they know of someone who is i mean. For example. We always include the national suicide hotline on oliver podcast. But i'm sure there are other resources that you could recommend so i mean i always would represent the year or or recommended national separate vegemite fine or the crisis. Text line right. Those are those are useful tools for sure. If folks aren't comfortable with that. I mean again. It depends on on where you're at right so there are are helps sources that are unique to veterans to transgender individuals to teenagers right and so finding something local or something. That's specific to your sense of self can be helpful because again we talked about salience earlier you can feel her and you can feel like you connect with the issue in a way. That's more like that resonate with you make you feel better. I always you know as a clinician would lean on what we call behavioral activation which it isn't a tough moment. Identify your values who you are as an individual and other. You're supposed to be not who someone else you're supposed to be but like what what really makes you feel like the person you want to be. And whether that is somebody someone's feeling productive and just specifically scheduled time to be doing things that connect with the number of those values is in evidence based tool for treating depression. My favorite intervention us. Because you never asking your client to do something scary being what's the thing. Let's do that right but the reality is when when things get stressful national tend to get less motivated to do things make us feel good and so it. This isn't a phone number can call versus in a building. Something can go to you. But it's a resource tool something could use. Which is just make sure you take stock of. What are your values. Were you doing today to connect with those and identify that as a strength that some of the you're supposed to do not an indulgence. Not a sign of weakness but in fact an effort at helping to solve your problems i talked earlier about young americans being individualists pick themselves up by the bootstraps will. This is part of doing that though. Few folks connect with. I want to solve problems on. Go into this system. Or whatever it is that they're they're holding that keeps them from wanting to reach out with his something they can do on their own. And so i guess that's what i'd emphasizes for the folks again. 'cause folks vulnerable firearms. Who set off engage with these tools. I don't wanna only advertise tools. If that's what you're going to go towards this is something you go towards the end and the last thing out there is look for smartphone apps a lot of them are bad and not evidence based but there are things like virtual box that have been subject to. Rt's they've been studied. They work and you can do those things on your smartphone. And no one has to know. You're using them and they're useful tools. I hadn't even thought about that. The sort of points of access that you don't even have to talk and how that would actually probably really useful for a lot of folks especially now when everyone's kind of close quarters in that feared air i'm wondering if there are any other sort of interventions in general kelly s folks like ideal world. Why what are some interventions you love to see like on a wide scale sort of to get rolled out across the board. So i mean there's there's plenty what only nine years of my team just wrapped up a three year randomized controlled trial of legal means counseling. So it's a it's an intervention where you're talking to someone about how they might reduce access to specific methods pursue sunny in. This trial was with fire. Money members the mississippi national guards. You're talking specifically about firearms quite honestly. That's what i'd like to see. Rolled out for a number of reasons. It can be done without someone having a phd right. It doesn't require ten sessions with someone in an insurance policy. It's a conversation. We can have with someone that can also shift societal norms to within the community about the role of firearms and suicide and and health should think about storing their their firearms right. And so i think that problematic behaviors are usually sustained not because someone stubborn and wants to hurt themselves but because they perceive risk differently. And i think that that folks perceive suicide risk is different than it is and because of that. There's reason for them to believe that that unsafe story. I define it is safe and wise and so i would wanna see google means. Counseling rolled out probably and practiced by folks who are credible sources within the firemen owning community. Because it'll shift. Those norms little shift those beliefs that people are intrinsically motivated to actively just like we all think about drinking and driving wearing seatbelts differently than folks did in the seventies right because we've come to internalize those useful behaviors and things. You and i are talking about today. Those aren't internalized is useful behaviors. They sound like a gun. Grab from a bunch of liberal academics and advocates which isn't a great sales pitch and so rolling means counseling on probably. I think is a way to get the message out of the voice of someone like me and into the voice of someone who has credibility amongst folks need to hear the message. I third almost stunned by the point you made about how when we look at suicide rates sometimes people will read them as will these people who are the most miserable rather than these are the people who have misery plus access and i think when you talk about it that way it makes it clear around how to as you said how to make sure that we are talking to people in a that. They can understand that they're comfortable with because it is urgent and need it and it's not just about how can we talk about it and sort of removed way. But how can we actually get to people. And i just feel like the way you phrased that really urgency across. No i appreciate that. I think that yeah people will look at what we're saying here and say you're missing the core of the issue you should focus on. What makes someone get that point in the first place and what i always say in response is. I'm not arguing against doing that. You can do both. It's a false choice. So when i talk about don't drink and drive. That doesn't mean it's okay to not wear your seatbelt. it just means about. Don't drink and drive. you also shouldn't failed. Put on your seatbelt when we talk about limiting access. It isn't because we don't care about someone's misery it's that we don't exclusively care about someone's misery and that in fact in order to help them with their misery we have to first make sure they're alive anybody you took intro to psych heard about maslow's hierarchy of needs and and in order to get the self actualization You need to be breathing. F- food and a roof over your head. That's where i met him at that. Part of the maslow's hierarchy needs is. I need to get the basic thing taking care of that we can do the important work to to those higher goals people wanna rush to those higher goals. I in it hasn't worked as firesuits. Every ray goes up every year. This is just been been so helpful. I wanna i wanna thank you so much dr necessarily this. This has been great. I feel like we need to have eighteen or podcasts on this topic so i'm hoping you can come back but i think that this is an excellent starter and highly recommend that everyone goes and checks out your work not just your but some of the most recent articles have lengthened the scripture of this episode because i think that they explain i think really. Well what's actually going on out there. Thank you so. I certainly appreciate what you guys are doing really enjoyed talking to you guys about this kelly. What's not going to be good. I feel like i'm torturing you and our listeners with these are a while today we go to a school in california k where a teacher in high school and seaside california. He was teaching a class in of course called administration of justice which is a class. I'd be there. He was teaching a lesson about gun. Safety that's no worthy okay. Great i feel like when i was in highschool lead that would have never been of course right but anyway So this this teacher who. I would like to point out a reserve police officer. He took his gun out and pointed it at the ceiling. Rule when it misfired. Oh no and. I was injured by bullet fragments. That ricocheted off the ceiling and launched into his neck. That's terrible yeah. No one was seriously injured but the quote unquote indirectly from the article. At the boy's parents were shocked when he returned home with blood on a shirt and bullet fragments in his neck. They didn't even take him to earn no one in the class that he do. No no one said anything until he got home. Ge's the the the parents had actually called the police to report it themselves. That bad yeah and so because of that. The teacher has been placed on administrative leave from his teaching job and from his position at the sand city. California police department. There's there's one piece that i want to include. Which is that. Even even. If he had a concealed carry permit which. I'm hoping he did he. You're not as teacher. You're not legally Admitted to have firearms in california classrooms. They don't they don't allow although there are some states that do allow teachers to carry right and the second thing and this is the thing that i kind of wanted to focus a. There's a lot of awful things in this. The thing that gets me is that the teacher had told the class that he wants to make sure his gun wasn't loaded before he used it to demonstrate how to disarm someone so this could have gone so much worse than it than ended up going. Wow i mean yeah. There are a lot of levels to this. I think again. If he's a member of law enforcement than that's the prototypical person you would assume what at least some sort of experience. I think it just goes to show the troubling implications of people who are saying. Let's arm teachers. But then too i find it unbelievable that no one thought to get the kid checked out and make sure he was okay in say that is shocking and number three. Of course the incident in enough himself this week we start by looking back to november thirtieth nineteen ninety-three when the brady bill after years of relentless advocacy by brady's namesake's driven sarah brady was finally signed into law. Now as we've talked about in the podcast before. Jim brady was shot along with secret. Service agent timothy mccarthy in district of columbia police officer thomas delancey and the nineteen eighty one assassination attempt of president. Reagan brady survived. Though the injury left him with partial paralysis that required the fulltime useful wheelchair an permanent side effects so much so that when he passed away in two thousand fourteen his death was ruled homicide from the shooting in the wake of the shooting in one thousand nine hundred one jim his wife. Sarah began their tireless efforts for gun violence prevention giving birth. You know to brady. One of their major victories was the brady bill. This legislation mandates federal background checks firearm purchasers and imposed a five day waiting period on purchases until the national instant criminal background check system knicks was implemented in one thousand nine hundred eight. The brady background check system has been extremely successful since it was established in one thousand. Nine hundred four. It's prevented over three point. Five million prohibited gun transactions. And you know just for example in two thousand fifteen alone over six hundred. Nineteen prohibited gun. Transactions were prevented every single day. We also have to. Marcus sat remembrance this week. That of the mass shooting in san bernardino california on december. Second of twenty fifteen. The shooting which occurred during a training event and christmas party for the san bernardino county department of public health left fourteen dead and twenty two injured. The two shooters were a married couple. Who were according to the fbi. Homegrown violent extremists who been radicalized on the internet. It remains one of the deadliest mass shootings in the us. Finally gun violence continues in cities across the us to stay in california over the black friday weekend in sacramento a nineteen year old and a seventeen year. Old boy were killed following a shooting at the arden fair mall. The two boys were identified as dwayne and saquon read whose failing had moved to california to get away from gun violence in louisiana. The perpetrator of the shooting is still unidentified. The boy's aunt sharon jackson address the public with this statement quote. If you're afraid to be seen they have anonymous numbers somebody speak up. This is not one family member we have to bury this is to to. When is somebody going to do something. When i've a message wanna share. the podcast. listeners can get in touch with us here at redland pretty via phone text message simply call or text us at four zero seven four four three four five two with your thoughts questions concerns ideas whatever you feel like sharon but numbers there and if you want to support this podcast embrace efforts to prevent gun violence. We have a way for you to do that. As we move into the holiday season in the end of a very interesting twenty twenty we're participating in giving tuesday it's called a global generosity movement and this day is all about unleashing the power of people in organizations to transform the world that is why a brady donors have generously offered to match every dollar donated up to fifty thousand dollars if you enjoy this podcast and want to help end. The epidemic of gun violence please consider making a donation every dollar you give before midnight. Go directly to brady's efforts to end gun violence and save lives. You can join them by clicking the link in the description of this episode and already. Thank you so much for your support. Thanks for listening as always. Brady's life saving work in congress. The courts in communities across the country is made possible. Thanks to you for more information on breeding or how to get voltdb fight against gun. Violence police like subscribe to the podcast. Get in touch with us at brady. United dot org or follow us on social at brady butts. Be brave and remember take action.

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