10 Episode results for "Shane Anderson"
SHAYNE ANDERSON: INTERVENTION & SERVICE: EP. #65
"The idea is to join up with the client to bond with them and to not get super close where you violate any boundaries. But at the same time you you want to get them excited hopefully about getting better that's why you're there and I always say my objective is the work myself out of the job. Really are you curious about discovering ways of making your life better than welcome to my podcast? I'm Bob Nick Mun, and this is the exploding human. Listen. In while I, talk with all kinds of people in the fields of personal growth health and Alternative therapies, psychology spirituality environment, and the future I'm looking for those answers to make life better for everyone, you'll meet cutting edge practitioners, doctors, artists, filmmakers, business people, and those who have overcome challenges. The brave curious anyone who was out there US humans to explore expand. And explode. I can with exploding human. I. Am Bob, Nick Mun and that gentleman you heard there at the beginning is Shannon Anderson and he's going to be talking to me today about his work as a sober companion and a certified intervention. Professional. So if you've ever wondered about those things, you're gonNA find out a lot today. And before we get into that, I want to invite you to visit my website, the exploding human dot com. T. H. G.. E. X. P. L. O. D. I N. G. H. M. A. N. Dot Com. Got All my. Interviews and photos of my guests. Little BIOS, little bio on myself. A donate button. If you want to support the show that would be awesome and police subscribe to my Youtube Channel which is the exploding human with Bob Nick Mun with Bob Nikkan on Youtube, and you can listen to the episodes also on Youtube. And I also want to. Mention that I have a A sponsor that I really am enjoying Promoting this product, it's the hero soap company H. E. R., O. SOAP HERO SOAP company. And DOT COM and they. Make, very healthy and. Refreshing soaps infused with incredible sense. The soap smell so good that you almost wanna eat it. That's how good it is and you feel great I I'm using the spirit right now and my friend Lucas over there is offered to give a discount if you type in at. Checkout exploding type in the word exploding and you'll get a discount. From hero soap company check them out. So my guess today's Shane Anderson Shane has spent about I think he's been doing this eleven years he's been a sober companion and he's also segue into intervention work. So, if you've ever really wondered what that day to day kind of living is like you know helping people to. Navigate to not just a drug and alcohol problems, but he does other other issues too and how he works with families and how we got started in this in helping other people. His whole entire life is really about service in helping people with addiction problems as well as mental health issues. It's all kind of mixed together. So check it out. This is Shane Anderson. We're going to talk about how you. How you got started with I being sober companion how you got into that Was it something that you had always wanted to do or did it kind of come come on nowhere or what? What? How did that happen because people? You know they get into stuff and I'm always surprised at how that happens. Yeah great question. How did I get my start You know it started I got sober two, thousand and four. So I've been in recovery since two, thousand four. And I was going to amends meeting in Santa Monica and there was a guy at that meeting his name was Tim really cool. Guy Just Love The Times that he shared just had a really great energy and I come to find out that he was a sober companion and that's what he did and I thought well, first of all, you probably know this but most people in La don't have jobs, they have gigs. And so. I. I was a Giger myself and still consider myself at some point to still be one but. you know I just thought. Wow, this is so companion he had some really cool stories doesn't seem like he works all the time, but he's jet setting off to different places in helping people and I thought wow I would really like to know more about this. So I pulled him aside one day and I said Tim I understand that you're sober companion I. think that might be something. I'd be really good at and he said, I think he would be too and he asked me how much time I had sober than I think about three years and he said to me that most people that would be in a position to hire you want you to have at least five years clean and. Sober thought. Okay and I just sort of put it in the back of my mind for a couple more years, and then right when I turned five five years sober I put it out there to a friend of mine. She told it to her friend named Kevin Really Great Guy and he got me my star. You got me my first job and I started I had A. Crazy. His first client was my first client was this backwards hit from Louisiana really liked to smoke a lot of crack. You know one time I went with them to pay off his crack dealer that was. Like an episode Ray Donovan Fortunately, both made it out alive but Allowed to do that. You know what I was thinking I was thinking if I don't go number one, he'll probably use, and then that'll be really difficult or he'll get hurt or both, and so maybe against my better judgment maybe I was just naive at the time was my first job I wanted to do well because I thought if I do this job well, then there's more work ahead for me and fortunately we we we came out of that but it was like like you would see in a movie it was a big white van down by this park was desolate guy got out. His name was tiny. Hiney and like I said we. Wit. The Hillbilly wit tiny is here the guy. The kind of guy turns around and says limited use you to my girlfriend and my cousin and there's just one girl standing there. So. Exactly. But was this in Louisiana or he knows in Louisiana. And that was my all I I jog my first foray and I think I was with him for. I want to say about. Two months and we just you know who some incredible stuff but you know the job is interesting because an anti fortunate. Now that I've been doing it for over a decade, I've been really fortunate in the sense that I've helped people get their star because somebody gave me my start. So I helped I don't know maybe eight nine people it started because they like me were curious. I was tell people. A couple of things about the job is is wanted it can be really great, but it also can be really difficult and you give up your life. Now. When you say you give up your life what what is what do you mean by that? I mean by that? Is You live in a suitcase? Because I could get a call at any time and they could say can you be in New York later today or could you fly to Switzerland tomorrow and you have to be able to say? Yes because. What I come to learn is that they're basically going down a list and if you not available, they'll move on to the next person and in my mind when I was new I've got much better at this but I was always thinking if I say no one too many times they'll stop asking me. Yeah I would be worried about that too. Just just like who's the most reliable person that I can I know they're gonNA say When I call but at the same time, you have to balance that with the you know your personal life. So I'm sure you do say no at this point sometimes you have. And when I was married with a family now but when I was single, it was a pretty good job because the money's descended, you're not spending any money but a couple of things I've learned over the course of the time I've done. This is number one when somebody asks if you're available available for job, they're not offering you a job. They're just asking if you're available because a lot of times, it doesn't happen even with the interventions now, and the other thing is, is that the only time I can almost guarantee I'll be offered work as when I'm on a job and I can't take it. Sure. Of course. Right. So, you when you're a sober companion, a lot of those people don't want to enter twelve step programs. Necessarily some might might not be familiar with it. Who is it mostly like I guess it's a variety of people. There's a lot of parents that want somebody to watch their their young kid who's you know maybe a teenager in their twenties or is it wealthy adults that need a babysitter for lack of a better word because it's not it? It sort of is that but it it's And do you ever have I'm guessing a bunch of questions at once you ever have people sort of try to sneak away and do stuff while you're with. Oh. Yeah. I mean yes. To all of that. It runs the gamut I mean I've worked with teenagers all the way up to people in their late seventies It just depends on on what the needs are and it I when I started and people said, it was like a glorified babysitter I guess I could see that but it's just so much more. You know I? Mean, obviously, you can't force anyone to do anything but I always like to say I'm just one less move for them. Try to be a good role model try to talk things out and you know so that's a sober companion, right? So there is companionship to it, but there's also the sober part and I've had men I've worked with were interested in being sober quite frankly I didn't stick around because while this is how I make my livelihood it's never been just about a paycheck for me so I've had to say to people and left. A lot of money on the table. So to speak that look I'm not gonNA stick around if you're not interested in working towards something I'll go help somebody that is and I've left. Good for you, that's never an easy conversation but I just WANNA feel useful and I. Feel. Bad. Just cashing a check just to watch somebody snort coke and then pretend i. didn't see it. Now, I have a another. Associate of friend who? Also does sober companionship and he was He was. Flown out to another state he had met a guy that was here in a in a treatment facility and they hired he hired him to come to his home. So he moved into this guy's home and not only did he deal with the guy but he was a married man with children. Teenage children. So he was now. placed. In the middle of a family dynamic in the the people in the family were like, who is this guy? Is there a little suspicious? Those situations must be very Tenuous because now you're placed in the middle of somebody else's family. I'm sure you've had some of that that kind of stuff where we're the family members are like they don't want they don't maybe they don't even want the dynamic to change because it. So familiar yeah that's a good point and. I we say that working with the families is sometimes harder than working with the individual because they have expectations like you said, they they one of the safe you know sick if you will. So they can have control or power over them. Fortunately I would say the majority of the time I'm working for a case manager therapist or doctor. So there's a buffer in between Nell deal with the family I. Mean I have against my better judgment a handful of times work just for the client themselves to deal with anyone else and that that has its advantages because I don't have to report into anyone but the disadvantages that say. Are Calling the shots right because they're the ones that are employing directly. So you don't have that offering between eight. So you know the families I try to. Be, respectful of the confidentiality of the client I don't want to overstep but at the same time when you're that close to them, like you said like living with the wife because I I have had that not a lot. It's usually the person has been either on their way to treatment or coming home from treatment or I've been on a on a TV set or a film or. Know just again, sort of runs, the gamut, the ideas to join up with the client to bond with them, and to knock get super close where you violate any boundaries. But at the same time you you want to get them excited hopefully about getting better that's why you're there and I always say abject it as the work myself out of job. Really. Being around for a while I, understand that there's different ways to to recover. So I try not to push anything on anyone I. Just say listen you know here's a better way to do it. Let's. Use Me as a as a coach, you can bounce things off me and you know I try to. Be someone there that they could talk to. oftentimes they're used to being coddled or there's a lot of expectations lot of narcissism. So you know I try to be firm, but at the same time easy guy to be around and I think that's why I've been able to stay busy for as long as I have. I would assume that there's been situations where people have really Told you things. Maybe they haven't told anyone in their whole life used to have a card and on my card, it said my name and then it said my phone number and then it on the lower left it said active listener and on the lower right it's confidence holder. And I used to give that card out to people not not really for work but just people that I would meet that. I thought maybe needed to have somebody in their corner. There are certain people I've run into over the years that have this I don't know what it is. They have a qua-, a quality where people tell them stuff. They don't tell other people they just opened up to to them at you seem like you would be one of those people happen to my whole life into my whole life. Yeah. I'm sure prior to even doing this worke you just seem like somebody that you could say stuff to and it would be okay. Yeah. I remember when I was in high school like Highschool College, my friends this is a total one eighty. But they would you know they would be talking about their stories with the girls and triumphs they'd had with girls and stuff like that, and they would always ask me and I wouldn't want to talk about it and we just kind of keep it to myself. I would listen to their stories. But when it came time for me to divulge stuff I just sort of kept to myself I don't know why I thought of that now but it's the same thing you know this job you're only as good as how Confidential you can remain with clients you're working with very high profile people and almost every occasion I I have to sign what's known as an NDA in nondisclosure agreement. Because you can be sued and then my reputation is really all I, have in this in this field and it could be over like they say it takes a long time to build up and it just takes a second tear down. So I have to be mindful of facts. Yeah, a friend of mine used to say, it only takes a second to fuck up the Mona Lisa with a can of spray paint. Earth. Yeah. So you do mostly Celebrity type clients and or or is it a whole gamut of? Would say mostly, but I have had quite a few people in front of the camera behind the camera I think mostly because where we live, you know based in Los Angeles but I do were quite a bit in new. York. But. You know anyone that really has the resources. It doesn't come cheap I. Say you give up your life because you aren't able to. Do the things that you normally would do and like I said, I have a family now. So if I'M GONNA leave for a period of time, it has to be something that is worth not just financially, but has to be a good opportunity So it's it's not just celebrities. But it is people that have the resources to be able to to afford it. So. Insurance does cover any knows and cover insurance. You know treatment is covered by insurance depending on where you go but this is a private pay. situation you know. So I don't think that we're overpaid to be quite honest with you. Because again, you're with somebody twenty, four seven. So that means if you're staying with somebody and in the morning, they wake you up and talk to you because they can't sleep. Guess what you're up you're up with them as long as it takes. Yeah. So that was that was going to be my next question. How much of the twenty four hours a day? Are you actually with them? Are you sleeping in the next room and you're living with them and spent oars do some people say well, you know I'm I'm working all day at the office take the afternoon off and I'll see it five. I've had both of those happened I had worked for a big music manager and he he would go to his office. He would sometimes take me to work and put me in another office just be like I'll see you at the end of the day. had some people you know put me up in the guesthouse of stayed in hotels within different room. Sometimes, it's better than joining room. So it really just depends on the level of support that they need. Some people just want you in the background. They don't want anyone to know who you are. I've I've taken people from treatment to go back east because their daughter was in Vienna play and the Treatment Centre wouldn't let them go unless he took companion with them. So I've done that. So you've seen a lot of stuff I'm GonNa Sneeze here in a second. Should I leave it on the recording maybe I will hold on. Those impressive. Wow, thanks for covering up to feel like it didn't even hit me. I'm just protecting my screen. You have a mask over your camera. Do, you need a license to be a sober companion I? Don't think you do I think you just have to have some experience. There's no no licensor. There are people that will give your certificate and train you. There's some REPUTA- ones out there reputable but you know there's no oversight so to speak and. Like I said most I I don't know anyone that's ever been a companion not recovery that would be really really bizarre but. You know it's people that again have really good instincts don't rattle easily that work well with others and just can really think on their feet, but there's no formal. Training that I know of anyway I think it could be coming. I know a couple of people that are basically you know at retirement age and they've been doing other things but there they've been clean and sober for. Twenty thirty plus years, and they want to segue into a massive recovery and still making a living in that world. rather than with their old job was I would somebody go about doing that well. I think you just an actions probably would be party. I take. So I think it's kind of what I did I. Think you just start putting out there and I've had people that are. In their sixty S. Maybe a little bit older that wanted to get into it and there's You know it's kind of like a casting director. There's you just have to find the right fit. You know as somebody that's in their twenties may not relate to somebody that's in their fifties or sixties but somebody in their sixties may want someone closer to age but you know you depending on the job you have to also. Able to to move around because what if you're in your sixties and you're not fit but you're a great guy and this person their thirties like stood jock and they want you to jog with. Weight up. Right exactly. We put the cigarette out so. Then me I'm I'm in decent shape, and if somebody wanted I'm not a runner I work out but I'm not a runner if somebody wanted to. I wouldn't be able to take that job. I'd have to refer to a guy know who's who's a great runner and say, this is the guy for you. So you know Bob Okay. So there's lifestyle considerations for each Kleiner percent and those questions get asked up front I would imagine these case managers they have a stable again, it's very analogous to a casting director, right? So they have a stable male and female. Companions, they try to keep men with the men and women with the women and they say, okay now we have a thirty two year old person that's coming off opiates. That is super fit lenses do cross fit or whatever, and they want someone that's GonNa stay with them for six weeks, and this is what their day to day is GonNa look like. So now we have to find someone that that fits that. Yeah, that's funny. I I'm on this. List for this advertising company in they sent me an email yesterday. One of those things of are you available and can you do this and the thing they wanted was somebody to be able to translate copy into French and German. You're the guy. I'm like I write back nine. What are you seeing? In. The types of a drugs that people are addicted to a change alcohol's sorta that constant I would imagine just because it's so easy to get. But if you seen a shift in the with how long have been doing this about fifteen years a little about eleven now. Eleven years. So when you started was there more of a certain type of drug that's now sort of shifted to are seeing prevalence of other types of addiction is growing and I'm sure it fluctuates but is there anything new on the on the horizon that's going on I'll tell you the biggest thing that I've noticed and this is true for a believe sober companion recovery coach interventions. We're starting to see more and more mental health, right? So be before it was. With some mental health, and now the cases are mental health with a little addiction and I think some of that is most parents don't like to think of their kids as Dr that drug addicts to Caesar for them to think of all they're just depressed or they have anxiety or their you know the pandemic, but you won't be dig a little deeper. We find out there smoking pot every day and they're taking their snorting adderall and they are stealing moms, Zanex and things like that. So. that would probably be the biggest thing you know opiates seem to be hanging on because marijuana's legal now in California, there's a lot of. Marijuana. That's has. High Potency. The strains are much higher than they were in the in the past so. I guess that's the thing. I've noticed the most recently as the mental health. as more of a primary diagnosis with the addiction call. Now, they call it substance use disorder in the past it was just drug addiction or something else and they call it alcohol use disorder who you're talking about the the cannabis, the being legal and how strong it is. I would think that would lead to a lot of mental disorders because that stuff is you know from what I'm hearing I mean I haven't. tried. Weed and. Thirty five years even the stuff that was the strongest. I couldn't handle it back then and it's an even stronger now I can't imagine. You know what goes on with people I was reading about somebody was telling me about they were calling it psychosis basically that the people are smoking. So much of this high powered a THC. Can expel the THC as fast as they're taking it in. So they have a psychotic break in their in in their in mental facilities from. We'd yet. It's true. It's. It's the wild west out there in that sense and they're they're closely aligned in people. You find out you talk to a parent or loved one in they're like what's going on? Well, they can't get out of bed. They're depressed all day where we're what are they doing? Oh, they're smoking weed and then playing video games or they're on their phone and they are ball night and they sleep all day. So you have what's called a Co occurring addition episode Rather Co occurring diagnosis or dual diagnosis it say and you have to be able to find a facility that treats both. Used to be cannabis not considered you know an addictive substance, but I know people in my life that have had big problems with it where they could not function in in life just with that, you know this supposedly habit for. It's true. It's true and you asked earlier about what would've would've I've seen I've I've had a few clients, their primaries gambling. They couldn't stop gambling and their parents have recovered. You know these are younger. Men In their twenties and that they had to go have their parents, bail them out, and so you know whether it's failure to launch or they call it arrested development. These kids have been able to be self sufficient. They really need some help. So I have to go in and do my due diligence and find out about meetings that work with gambling and you know fortunately when you've been around a while, you have met some really good people as you can use them as resources. So that's always been really helpful. Oh. So you don't just deal with drugs and alcohol. So doing gambling and. Anything else blaming. Disorders they call it. So could be anything from disordered eating. Somebody has an eating disorder. Somebody has a gambling issue. Somebody has video games. That's a big one, these days or screen screen addiction they call it. So it really it really never just one thing about that. Never here's just one thing because you it's it's Sorta like whack a mole you know you push one down another thing comes up because the the underlying thing is I don't WanNa feel the way I feel without something to alter my perception and the idea is that were you know this is life work right? We're. We're we're not just coming in and just fixing one thing. We're giving them some tools to be able to go back to the world real world and when things happen and they get triggered or their stressors to get back to their own environments, it can take and build on the momentum and learn how to deal with life rather than just trying to numb out with a substance you get a lot of these people to direct it into different types of therapy besides twelve step to cause some obviously some of these people are going to need that it sounds like, yeah, I think. The idea would be thinking about interventions now when we do an intervention. Really want to find a treatment center that is appropriate for them geographically works within their budget and you know I always say the real recovery begins once you lied. So. To make sure that there's an aftercare program that set up working with the treatment center and then. You know some people will go into sober living for a while or some people will definitely get therapy but you know to make sure that once they discharge or leave a treatment center that there's a plan in place so they just don't go right back. To where they were before we had some a young lady that was today as a matter of fact, she's leaving treatment and last night we were on the phone with her family just going over the plan for when she gets home, she was in a relationship that's fraught with Some emotional upheaval so there's two kids involved and you know what's going to happen when it will happen. You know another argument soons what are you? What are you GonNa do so we went over that just to make sure that everybody was on the same page. Now with intervention you're going in, you can do a lot online I would assume with setting. Up a family kind of stuff and Oh, how the how the intervention's going to go. Then the intervention itself is what a couple of days I mean. It's probably one day that it actually happens but navy the flying there and the preparation and all that how you me like I know there's no such thing as a typical one, but maybe you can give. You know how the a scenario that might. Give our listeners and idea what what you do as an interventionist. The way it works is there's you know inquiry where someone will call and say I needed intervention for a loved one and talk to them for maybe thirty minutes to just get some background and make sure that I'm the right person for them, and then the next phase would be the assessment. Really Finding out as much as I can about the individual and then I start interviewing and I think that's one of the things I love most about. This job is that I will start to assemble an intervention team a family intervention team. So is it mom and dad involved if the IT's a young? child you know eighteen and above maybe sometimes a little bit younger I've had younger as well. who else is going to be a part of that intervention team. I'm oftentimes looking for an outlier is there a coach or distant relatives or? They haven't seen is there. A grandparent that's passed away that maybe we can somehow bring them into the intervention and What I'll do is I'll start to interview them and learn as much as I can about the individual and I wanna know things like what makes them special You, know what what tell me about a special memory that the two of you had together and all right all this stuff down. I'll take copious notes and then I'll ask them. What's your biggest fear? Sometimes, it's that they'll die sometimes they won't realize their potential sometimes it's at bill just completely circle the drain for the rest of their life. And then I'll say what? Would you greatest hope and most of the time they'll say that they get better and get my son back my daughter back. So once I've done the due diligence usually spend about fifty hours. So it's quite involved talking to people and acting as almost like a concierge fashion with them. So they can reach out at any time. Then once I have all that information and once I've done a what's known as a family map, put a genome together in a family map and start to understand sort of the family tree, and if they're addiction in the family, if there's a history of suicide, there's a criminal record mental health trying to really understand as much as I can about the individual do as much research. Then the next phase would be to set a date and time I give them the family. At least three options of treatment centers. Really, tried to do as much research as I can and say. First of all, I have no fiduciary relationship with any treatment centers. I. Just say this is a place where I would send a loved one and I just give them the contact in the website they look at it they find a place they think's appropriate. then. We set the pre intervention meeting, which I will go I just did one recently in. Illinois. I did another one in Colorado just flew to Switzerland took somebody deserve can just came back. So I'm sort of all over the place. But what we'll do is we'll have a pre intervention meeting and the other thing I'll do it for the. Pre intervention meaning is I'll ask the individuals involved to write letters write and these letters are for the people that will be there but they'll also be for the people that can't be there let's say somebody's far away they can't be there but they want to write a letter. So I say these letters should be like love letters, letters of encouragement. The Way I was trained was to be as a motivational and his positive as possible to come from a place of love now blaming no shaming no finger-pointing a we love you. We care about you. Alia. We have a family problem. We need to find a solution. So this is what it's all about. It's not about you know you're a bad person misses about pace. We have to find some help here and we're. Going to do this for you, and so it's not thought of as a consequence but more as a gift set the the pre intervention meeting. We we all go around. Everybody's really comfortable about what the next day is. GonNa look like and you know there's different interventions you may or may not know this but there's something called Johnson model, which is a surprise. You don't let the person know that you're going to be there. that's not my preferred one because such go wrong but you try to work out all the object but the one that I feel most comfortable on doing is called invitational We call invitation to change where basically say to them hey, we're having a family meeting. We'd like to be there or going to habit regardless we'd like to talk to you and not about you and most of the time they show up and then we all sit around it's very choreographed even though it doesn't look like it and people just. You need three things the short-term goals, you need three things to really get the wheels on the track. So to speak you need them to be available obviously you want them to be available we want them to sit and listen, and then you want to present the solution to them and you just do it in a way that hopefully it will crack their Harbin little bit. You try to cut off the. Head in the sense that it's not an intellectual thing. You just I mean I've seen people the most hardened people in the room completely breakdown because there's so much love and they're such power in the group. Now made they may have heard these things one on one so many different times. But when they see people assembled and they see people sometimes they didn't expect and I just had one recently in Colorado where. It was kind of inspired after think that it didn't come solely from me but I had some divine intervention the the woman involved was think she was forty two and she had a history of drug addiction and she had some trauma in her life. And she was coming over to the intervention locate action, and there was a chair there that belong to her grandmother who passed away the year before and she was super close grandmother. So I had the chair that her grandmother sat on involved in the circle and it just represented her grammar there when she saw that she started crying she broke down and she she was on a plane with their later that day took her treatment. So so that's basically the stages and then afterwards there's I stay engaged with the family for a period of time Ucla like sixty days just depending happens. These letters are powerful tools because they take these letters with them to treatment and they can read them and if. For any reason, they decide they're getting too well to quickly the counselors there will also have a copy of the letters and then they can be a very effective tool and keeping them there as long as they're supposed to be there. Yeah. A little reminder of why you're absolutely because they may say you know it wasn't that bad and they're like. Oh. Really. Well, let's just sit over here and go through these letters again and then they oh, that time that you rolled the and the your children had to be cut out of your car which happened on the way that's not something I just made up years ago I was working when I was doing stand up I was working at this. Place it was like as a hotel head of had a little nightclub in it, and I was talking to one of the women that work there I. Guess She was a bartender wait staff or something and. I had told her I wasn't drinking. She goes oh I, don't i. don't drink anymore either she goes I had a really weird a terrible thing happened because i. I came home drunk one night and I rammed my car through the living. Room. Window of my house. And I missed my kids by foot. And, I said I can never in that stop that got her to stop I don't know I never saw rem but that was a terrifying story. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I. Wish I could say I didn't hear stories like that but unfortunately I mean that's really hard for me since becoming a father recently anything with child endangerment it's just hard and you know it's also I'm finding interesting and I don't know. Really how to. How to deal with this completely but? I've been finding myself recently getting caught up in the emotion you know your people are pouring their hearts out. In the room and the reading, sometimes a letter and they just start to to cry and you see these people like big guys breakdown and I've caught myself two or three times getting super teary eyed, and I think if I had to speak in that moment, I would be emotional and I have to get better at I mean human after. All right. But I have to get better at you know you don't want your doctor crying he's about to cut you open for surgery. So there's people looking at me to to be some strengthen the room. So that's something that's on currently working on because it's just it's so emotional and there's so much at stake for these people. And I don't don't see anything wrong with tearing up in a situation like that I think people go. This guy actually cares now, if you were blubbering on the floor I can't take that would be bad. It hasn't happened yet but but inside I feel that way sometimes do become an interventionist that does require a certain type of training license. Correct. Well, you can do it without it and I've been doing you know unofficial interventions for quite a while I. Mean we do interventions all the time. There's all different kinds but to become what's called CIP, which stands first certified intervention professional. you know it's it's it's quite involved. You know it's it's hundreds of hours of supervision. It's taking classes it's getting insurance. It's having recommendations You know it's going you you you have to speak to the. So. It's quite fun involved but it does give you some credibility and some licensor and It was a big deal to get him fortunate out some good people behind. So you do have that Yeah. So I have what's called a CIP which is. Certified Intervention Professional I'm fortunate enough to you know work with some great people a trained with somebody called Doctor Louise Stinger at all about interventions, and she's a licensed social worker, and she's an educator and an author. So I work quite a bit with her and Ed's story out of San. Pedro he's He's my first mentor. I call them the Mister. Rogers. Recovery is just probably the nicest guy I've ever met is motto is when Endow e kind and he's done over thirty five hundred interventions and spend in the business for like forty years. So you know I I like to work with those two people and again because I'm doing and doing this such a long time name is out there. So you know it is enough business fortunately or unfortunately for everyone is the world's and such a precarious place right now and people are hurting in isolating. So I stay busy. It's a great thing. You're doing I mean to be able to You know have a a nice income with something that means something. I think that's the goal of most people they would love to do. Something they're passionate about you're doing that, which is fantastic. Yeah. I'm really fortunate in I I. Read this book some years ago called the one thing and it was all about you know. I guess the way I used to think was I'll just spin as many places as possible. I'll just multitask and do whatever it can hopefully something will stick and you know this book was basically saying that that's thing not to do multitasking isn't great. Find out one thing that you're most passionate about and everything else will line up and I I. Spent about two seconds thinking about and I realized at one thing for me is being of service and so this job as a way to be of service and and from that, I've been able to support myself, make living, raise a family and help people the same time. So I can't really think about anything better and I'll keep doing it for as long as it's available to me. And I think that's important. You know finding or having it find you. you know tapping into that Intuition. Of what what actually speaks to you in a way like if there was no. This is not new ideas. But if there was if there was no if money wasn't a concern and time or any, if nothing was a concern, what would you do with? What would you do? And whatever that thing is. Do it, and then see what happens I i. You know I interviewed a guy yesterday who's in in the world of vitamins and you know health products and things that he didn't start out to do that he he started to Heal himself because he was overweight and yet eggs among all these different issues and he went to a to this place and they kind of showed them how to eat and and be healthy, and he changed that and from there it just very slowly. Healing himself he went. This is my calling I'm GonNa have to this is what I have to do. and. It's you know and I run into a lot of people like that in this podcast where they just. Have some sort of a horrible series of events that has guided them to to their life's work well I. think that's very true in for me just it feels like. Complete alignment and it it's. It's like I have a responsibility in some way to give back to this this world of recovery because it's Given me so much. It's given me a relationship. It's given me employment and it's giving me they say life beyond your wildest dreams. Well, it's given me a life and I've had a Lotta trauma personally in my life and some loss. So you know if I can be a small part of saving someone's life literally and figuratively than I can't really think of anything better. Let's talk about trauma. because. I really think that's The second biggest piece or an equal he's to to genetic and family history. But of of addiction. I think there's a genetic component of course because you see it in families over and over again for generations. And but. I think trauma is probably a pretty big factor in turning to substance abuse to alleviate Symptoms, and feelings, and whatever happens and Let's talk about the that does that come that must obviously come up a lot in these interventions where there's been some major or you know varying traumas all the time all the time and it it takes a lot of digging. People don't WanNa talk about it. It's a sensitive issue could be incested could be raped it could be You know abuse neglect a lot of people. Don't necessarily put neglect armband admit together So yeah, it is and. You know you probably know this that the last thing we do is pick up or to use the stuff happens before and then we need some way to deal with it. We have no coping mechanism. So we don't WanNa feel we want an amount. So the idea is to get them into a place where they can really take a time out and work on that trauma and have some some good therapy whether. It's em Dr, or you know there's all these new modalities right now people don't necessarily talk about that because it's just so uncomfortable I e amd ears pretty interesting I do have one episode about that. If people WANNA, check it out. It's a del Barber I forget what episode number it is but check that out and That's an interesting technique I. Guess I think it kind of started a lot with soldiers. RETURNING SOLDIERS PTSD they do a lot a lot with that. You know it's Doesn't doesn't eliminate what happened, but it mitigates the effects of it to where you can live with these things that have that have happened in make your life a comfortable. Again, you can never make it go away but you can turn the noise down. And I've I've done it myself as a result of listening to that episode quite frankly that's how I got into. Did. Some good. Here, you go, you'll get your reward in heaven. Yeah exactly. Well, I'm getting it right now. Right this second I'm getting it was. It was incredible and it's been. You know because then I can speak to these things when I'm talking to people and I can, and that's also I think what really makes me affect? My job is I. I know how to think like an addict I'm you know I'm not? You know you're not. You're going to go take an aerobics class from somebody that's really overweight. You can't. There's a little bit of a disconnect there may be. But when I sit across from someone and I talk about those feelings of inadequacy or less than or you know loving. Cocaine I I get all that and I can relate to them like other people can't. So it really makes me good at my job seeing a direction where this is headed either in terms of the amount of availability, the lack of a stigma that's attached to this now and forms of treatment that are on the are forms of treatment that are coming up. Well, I don't think it's going anywhere. It's been around a lot longer than I've been doing it and I don't see it ending anytime soon because people hurting and I I've been saying recently that I'm telling people there's no better time to go to treatment I mean the world essentially on pause right now people are working they are working from home. So go to treatment work on yourself get better I just had the. Unbelievable opportunity to take somebody from L. A. to Zurich to go to. A place of their that's world renowned incredibly A. Unique in its. To treatment modalities, they're able to do things over there that can't be done in the states because we have regulations here cutting edge things that restored the neural pathways in the brain that have been damaged due to repeated usage of opiates and things like that. Wo- I want to hear about that. So I got to fly over there with an individual and I got to stay for some days and I got to go through the Institute of Kushner Art Institute in Zurich and I got to meet the clinicians they're and have one of the treatments and. It's just like no place in the world. Do you restore neural pathways? They have something called bio molecular restoration and I didn't have that one done. I. Think I probably could have if I would have been there longer, but I did have an oxygen therapy that works on the might oke. Andrea those are the cells inside that tend to age quickly, and so this helps rejuvenate that I mean you'd have to look at the website and just look at all the things that they offer but there's a reason why people that can afford to go to Switzerland for a medical needs because they have the best minds and the best people in the entire world there. Wow that sounds awesome I want to get some treatments just to try them. It's unbelievable. So is it about the cost of a motel six? It's about a chain of motel six. Seven eight nine ten, whatever it takes. Must Be, yeah. Boy Man I must be amazing. It's IT'S A lot. It's it's for the one percent and I think a big clientele. That they get from the middle. East. But you know if you can afford it I mean I told this guy that. That was on the fence about going who has a lot of money in would be considered rich and famous I said to him. I said you. You can't spend the money when you're dead. and. I think he heard that and you know people seem to think this is his last chance. Addiction is a disease that doesn't care. Who it affects it's kind of like in here's obviously this person you're describing somebody that has what most people would consider everything. Everything. And yet. There's this this. Thing that's you know undermining. Happiness joy contentment health. Relationships it's undermining everything a personal with everything that one thing is undermining all it's it's the trauma. It's what you talked about earlier. It's the trauma that was never resolved. I'm not a clinician but I, I know this person well enough to know that it's never fully been dealt with. So this is the kind of person that has the life that people would stand in line forever for and. Don't doesn't really have the opportunity to to enjoy it. So I think with all my heart that this place if anything would be the place that could really get them on track to. getting better and to just WANNA wake up in the morning and being cited about. Sometimes. I wonder if. Somebody head a certain type of trauma. Is Trying to heal that trauma by achievement that's an success and money and power like that is GonNa fix this thing and I think there may be quite a few people that are have arrived at that point that you were talking about with whoever this person is that that's was that was the underlying drive to heal, but it was just a misguided way to do it because to look at the real thing is. Too painful I think you're right on the money Bob and and you know this guy is someone I've known for a while and I was his companion for a year and a half million, a year and a half with one person and who said to me, who's basically been to the mountaintop and look down who turned him at one point said, it doesn't do it. It just doesn't do it. You think it's GonNa it but but it doesn't and so what happens you know you keep moving the goalposts keep moving, keep moving it, and it's as we say, it's an inside job. If you don't fix what's inside, it doesn't matter what's on the outside it's just to line up. while. We done. We're just getting started. What else you want to? Really. Grateful for the opportunity I could talk about it forever but. You know and again, the last thing I would say is that. I understand that people listening to this may think oh that's great. This guy works with people that are incredibly wealthy but the truth of the matter is that anybody that called me that needed help I would I would try to find a way to help them regardless if they had two pennies or two billion and doesn't matter there's their stuff out there when I when I tried to get sober I didn't know that there were places that would take you for little. or no money as far as relapse go. So I I didn't go because I couldn't afford it. But now that I've been around for a while I, know that there are places like clarify foundation or some other places that as long as you have a desire to get sober house of Hope For Women in San Pedro same thing any woman that has desire to get sober will never be turned away due to lack resources so I just want people to know that. There's help and the La have to do is ask and I think for a lot of people hardest thing they can say is I need help but that's true. I mean if you if there's people out there that that want some kind of a help, you can get it. You've got nothing there are in every city across the country there are opportunities to get help. So. So do folks do that if you need the help so it's out there. It's just a matter of you know. Making the phone call and saying those words I need help and helps on the way. Thank you so much Shane. A Bob it's it's it's my pleasure. Thank you for taking an interest. Absolutely have a great one too. Big. Thanks for listening into the exploding human to all you exploding humor's. Big. Thanks to Shane Anderson for a great little talk. Thank you Shane and keep up the great work. Folks if you WANNA, check out my website, it's the exploding human dot com lots of stuff there to listen to and look at it and read. Also, please subscribe to the Youtube Channel The exploding human with Bob Nick Mun. Check that out you can listen on Youtube. Also go to hero soap company, DOT COM hero soap they make very healthy soaps infused with essential oils. I highly recommend them. I do use this product I like it a lot. and. If you type in the word exploding at checkout, you'll get a discount much appreciation for your listening to the exploding human. And have a wonderful day. Thank you.
#103 - Why Australia Could Get Sued for Protecting the Environment
"Welcome to think sustainability, I'm saying Anderson filling in for Jake mock him. This starts with a classic. Australian poss- time smirking. Bye. Bye. In the nineteen seventies. Just under half of stray adult population was smirk. It's. Here's a new brand of cigarettes Winfrey. Ever good-looking nowadays ads like these are on heard of but back then the tobacco industry relied on marketing. Like this to convince people to forget the growing body of evidence indicating the risks of smoking. Inspite of the PR campaigns over the next few decades smirking rates did decline. But notice fosters you would think by the time the twenty th century rolled around. There was still an estimated nineteen thousand deaths each year from smoking related illnesses. Back the bars. So in twenty twelve the stray leeann government, led by the labor party decided to do something about it. The Australian government is taking on the big tobacco companies in a bid to reduce smoking related. Diseases gone. We'll be products names in branded funds or their logos. For next January. The only difference between packs will be a tiny reference to the product name in a uniform fund. We are going to ensure that inner strata there are no remaining avenues for tobacco companies to market and promote their products plain packaging laws meant that all the branding was replaced with graphic health warnings and tobacco companies didn't take this well tobacco firms. Crying foul. They're threatening legal action to defend their brands. What's intellectual property? We've lost that point one company. Philip Morris was particularly outraged after years of threatening the astray lean government with legal action. Philip Morris followed through on it. They sued the. Australian government. Philip Morris be stray Elliott took over six years to Abu trait, and it cost the government nearly forty million dollars to defend it Philip Morris, eventually lost the case, but it left people wondering exactly how much power corporations have over the laws of a nation and could something like this happen again. That's all coming up on the Shari. Cases. Like this have not only happened since Philip Morris via stralia, but they were happening. Well, before the government decided to bring about plain packaging, and it's all because of one thing one legal mechanism, you probably haven't heard of, but it's impacts are enormous and purses a huge potential challenge, not only to future public health policies, but also to the environment. It's cold ISD s or investor state dispute settlement, it's invest is suing states through a dispute prices. This is Patricia Ronald convener of the astray Lian fed trade and investment network all afternoon it for short. It's this ISIS caused that allows a corporation to sue a country. They were originally designed to give foreign investors some kind of Shorenstein their investment will be protected. It's mostly intended to be used in cases of expropriation. Meaning when the state take something for public use. But in practice Patricia says, 'i SDS takes the term pretty loosely is not only this straightforward seizing of say running the national post all the waterworks, but what they call indirect expropriation, and that can mean any law or policy, which might reduce the value of their investment. Then over the years, it's come to mean a lot more to if they can argue that they didn't receive what's called fair and equitable treatment. And that means they weren't properly consulted about anew law or it didn't make their legitimate expectations of what the regulatory environment would be. So there is the legal grounds for an ISD s case, but not any cooperation consume any government. First of all it has to be. Be foreign invest up so company based in say Hong Kong like Philip Morris investing in a country like ustralia end birth of these countries have to have already agreed to SDS in the first place. But I asked yes, isn't something. People sit down to shake hands on you can really only find them in one place buried inside trade agreements. Of NAFTA also known as a North American Free trade agreement while the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the TPP will be the world's largest free. These regional trade agreements are the mega-deals signed between lots of different countries. ISDN can also be found in bilateral trade agreements. Korean Canada at finally reached an agreement on bilateral free trade pact. Expects to sign a number of trade agreements with the US tomorrow at the sidelines of the US business for. Free. Trade agreements are huge often secret deals hundreds of pages long. An ISIS is a really small part of these agreements. So feel thinking that investor state dispute settlement sounds like an obscure clause buried in an obscure dense agreement. You would be totally right. But the Philip Morris via stralia case isn't an anomaly. Berklee there. Eight hundred fifty five noun treaty-based in this state up traditions, five hundred forty eight of the disputes have been concluded two hundred ninety seven appending. This is Matthew Rimma, professor of intellectual property and innovation little at the Queensland University of technology. Let's take a look at some of the ISD s decisions made lost year. According to the United Nations conference on trade and development. There was seventy three decisions handed down into seventeen and these cases like TransCanada us USA bad creek mining corporation bus, Peru in finito gold. I Costa Rica, Beijing Shougang be more goalie techy on Kabul. This is Pakistan. All these have something in common the mining companies one of the Big Ben fisheries of state dispute settlement as being multinational mining companies. It's compromisable how many actions have been dogged. There is a huge skew in ISD s patricians towards cases involving public health and the environment. Take for example, bad creek, mining thus Peru now bear creek mining is a Canadian based corporation that was planning to open a mining project in a region called Santa Ana which is near the border with Bolivia. The local community were worried about the impact this mind would have on the water. Reserve particularly the nearby lake Titicaca, which is vital to the local economy. Purchase violent at least five people were killed. So in response the government cancelled the bad creek minds license, bad creek mining use the ISD. Yes. Close in Canada, Peru free trade agreement to take the government of Peru to tribunal when they won the tribunal decided. The government of Peru are beg creek mining twenty million US dollas. Matthew Rimas says that in ISD cases is actually a slightly high chance at the state will win. So it's no guarantee that a foreign corporation, swimming, a government will actually be successful. But even if you win it's still a lot for government to go through cases, take years to arbitrate. And the government has to front the cost of its Aren representation for government like a stray Leah. It's not too hard to absorb forty million in legal fees. It is a tough sell to the tax payout. But it's not going to damage the overall JD pay. But for smaller nations, some of which haven't economy dependent on the industry's as corporations bring ISDN can be a lot harder to face. Why would people enter into these deals that don't seem like that? Great for government. We have to look at how economics has come to dominate politics. This is called words. He's professor of organization. Studies. At the university of technology, Sydney business school dominate of economic factors over political ones with the belief that well, if we give up some political power, we will gain back in terms of economic benefit. And so in this case with giving up these rights through the investor state dispute settlements the so-called economic benefits as in as great as in what is lost politically. So it's not uncommon for a company to enter into these free trade deals for the perceived economic benefits. Then even then these benefits could be wiped out by one successful ISD case. What's more ISD is one-sided estate consumed investor if it's the corporation that changes its mind? So this still doesn't really explain why a state would agree to ISD s Patricia Ronald says understand that we have to look to its history. Well, originally they were intended to deal. With a situation in the post war decolonization period, where countries that were becoming independent wanted to take over the assets that had been und- by foreign companies under the colonial period. You can trace the justifications for SDS way back to the mid twentieth century. It was when the colonies of places like Britain, France, and Belgium were breaking up as countries salt that earned independence the world was moving from a state of colonization to decolonization. These newly formed nations wanted control over the are inland, and this meant taking urva Oli industries, the colonizers had originally broad, but the corporations didn't go quietly during this transition businesses that had invested in say getting an trysofi supply running they weren't happy with just packing up and leaving. They felt that they were urged something in return the whole idea of compensation for internet. National companies was about having the assets seized and actually getting compensation for assets. But what has happened is that the companies themselves have influenced governments to expand the definition and built up a whole sort of legal system of investment law is it intentionally pitting environmental interest against corporate interest. I mean, I don't know if it's intentional. But I certainly would imagine that would be one of the effects if you can invoke this dispute settlement based on the threat of investment. What kind of laws will be will be questioned? We'll be labor laws you'll be health-based base laws environmental laws indigenous rights, so all of these things which in a democratic society should be considered as part of the rights of the people now can be questioned in the name of corporate interests. This is really an affront to the principles of democracy on which countries like. This are both. Yeah. Do you? Do you think it is a question of sovereignty? I think it's absolutely a question of sovereignty a foreign corporations can bypass our laws while operating in here. More generally is a loss of state sovereignty. And as a result, a loss of populace over until you in the fact that the state represents you me and everyone else is of the country. Why stray Leah is very the villain and the victim in the ISDN debate. Welcome back chasing sustainability why we faint talking about how an obscure Kohl's in free trade agreements could prices threat to our attempts to protect out, health and the environment. It's hard to measure the impact of ISIS closes the cases tend to be obscure in convoluted wrapped up in the impenetrable legalese of international trade law. So far, we've seen the financial impact of ISIS countries having to pay out tens of millions of dollars to foreign corporations. But is the threat alone of a lawsuit enough to stop regulations from even being implemented in the first place. My name's max panel. I'm a lawyer based in Sydney and a partner in the firm, white and case max is a specialist in international betray Shen for a low firm with a swanky office. In Sydney, Irv looking the Haba by his own admission. He's pretty extensive career. I've done a lot of work for renewables companies Donlan of whip for call companies of what for tobacco companies to confess my sins of twice defended. Alan Jones on differentiation cases. He's also worked on a lot of ISDN cases, many of them. He can't talk about. But there is one he can probably the the case have done. That's best nine in this area. Which is the case of white industries and India, so what industries is an astray Lian based supply of metal costings and components for over half a century. The white family has been. Building the long heritage of casting the future of the strenuous industry. My client white industries went into India to develop coal mine when it Wendy and it provided Coal India with a performance guarantee. This guarantee was a sum of money that the local government contractor was supposed to give back at the end of the project with burners for doing a good job the project concluded and white industries asked for its performance guaranteed Bank. Call India said, no, we're not happy with the job. You did. You can't have it light industries decided to sue. This was just your average lawsuit through the Indian court system. Unfortunately, it took the Indian court system nine years to purchase it eventually what industries what sick of waiting and they decided to go one step above led by max. White industries took the government of the Republic of India to an IS GS tribunal that claim wasn't. The guarantee or the burners they wanted 'compensation for the failures of the entire Indian legal system to deal with their case and white industries want all the figure was tiny. I mean, the eventual award which we finished up being about twelve million dollars in this game of of these things the monetary value of this was miniscule, but the principles underlying colossally important. There is principles were a lot to grapple with to India of foreign company had just skipped are their entire legal system by invoking obscure, close they didn't even know they had agreed to until they was sued and that caused enormous shockwaves within India was the first time as successful claim had been brought against India, and no one had really understood the potential ramifications of these clauses it caused India to take a close look at all their free trade agreements, and they realized they had signed around seventy of these deals. They would trapped in a spider's web VSD s. Max done something cold treaty shopping. There is no ISDN cools in the stray Lya India free trade agreement, but that was one in an agreement. India had signed with Kuwait max was able to you that the ISD in that agreement should also apply in this case, and the ISDN tribunal agreed with him the doors were wide open for foreign investors to sue India or things like delays in the legal system things that partly out of their control. The message was clear if you do something that gets in the way of corporations profit you'll country could end up on trial. We've I s causes in future trade agreements is it going to be a lot harder for governments to do things in line with looking after the environment. Like divesting in coal. The the short answer is. Yes, it will. Let's say that Australia were to ban the mining of coal for energy tomorrow. One happen by let's say there. A lot of coal mines in Australia. That are run by Indian companies. There are a lot of coal mines in Australia that are on by Chinese companies. There are Kalman's that around through Hong Kong companies and their Coleman's that are on through Singapore companies all of those countries have investment agreements with Australia. If they were told to shut their coal mines without compensation tomorrow. They could all bring actions for compensation against the Commonwealth. We have more examples of the threat of ISD s being enough to Skaggs governments away. Even if a lawsuit isn't successful. We do have very clear examples when Australia was sued by the Philip Morris company ever plan packaging legislation the New Zealand government announced it had been about to introduce the same legislation. It announced it would postpone until the result of the case was not took five years. And it's the same story around the w-. World in France in the UK, Norway islands, even hungry. All these countries waited to see what the outcome of Philip Morris via stralia was before they did it themselves. The threat of ISD pushed plain packaging lows around the world backed by five years. What's working about some of the biggest corporations in the world here image hawking about things that seem really big to me like a country's government being dwarfed by these massive amounts of money and racehorses how does it feel for you finding against all this? Well, the good news is that there is a global movement against is is and that partly why governments starting to turn away from. They has been particularly amongst developing countries. A lot of criticism of is is why is that? They don't want is. Because they are the ones who are most often sued. Patricia Ronald says, it's not just developing countries toning against ISD s the Americans have also agreed to phase out is applying to Canada, they've kept some iced provision for Mexico because there's a lot of you is investment in Mexico. But that the said it can only really be used for the Mexican government actually takes over the assets of the company. It's safe to say that Trump isn't phasing it out because he wants to protect the environment. He just doesn't like the idea of getting sued specifically, he didn't like it. When TransCanada tried to sue the abomb administration to the tune of fifteen billion dollars. If you've been playing at harm the details of this case warned come as a surprise. Yes. Transcanada is a mining company and the suit was over a license to build the Keystone Pipeline. The license was cancelled due to environmental protests. You may near these protests that were called standing Brooke after the Indian reservation the pipeline was meant to go through. This is on. People. So is this Tralee moving away from ISD closest as well. Well, in astrology, Johnny the current government that supports it. Despite the Philip Morris case alcove -ment is awful ISD s sir much sorry that they've just signed a new agreement with these clauses in it, a let call roads explain what's happening with the the TPP. It's twelve countries are involved with it Austrailia New Zealand, Canada, Mexico, Peru Chile Japan, Brunei, Singapore, Malaysia and Vietnam Donald Trump pulled out. It was a while ago that covers thirteen percent of the world economy. It's currently being debated in parliament in Austria with with the expectation that it should be signed roundabout November. This is being driven by the coalition, but the labor party have also said that they all full the TV pay but against ISD s they reckon if they get power the to individually talk each of the signing countries out of the ISD commitments, which everyone iceberg to for this story soul as a bit of a cop-out. So what does something like quarters? Tell us about the relationship between multinationals and government say we could just use a stray Leah's example between these trailing government and multinationals that do business. You. It says that the Australian government will do everything that it takes. We'll go to a very filings, including giving up its own self in order to attract multinationals to this country because this is a deal for multinational companies, it's not, you know, primarily, and so it says the sterling government is to seven extent they're mostly, but he's Eric counterbalanced to corporal. If people are like what's happening will sort of Rickles to they have the most important one is the recourse at the ballot books. The recourse will vote for so politicians may well react to to corporate pressure. But but the pressure of losing government or losing your seat is also important. So that will be there. But I mean, I citizens we have to engage democratic rights to criticize the government and to and to make it known, but also to criticize corporations and what hand, you know. It can't be done talking on the radio like this. But you know, it can be done by by boycott Inc. That are engaged in activties, but you're not supportive of. But but putting the the power of democracy with the damn in democracy means to people finding ways to put that that power back in the hands of the people by speaking up by dissenting. And by letting letting that that we known is the recourse that we have in a democratic system. You've been listening to think sustainability the show was supported by the university of technology, Sydney and to see all it's recorded at the studios of to us y'all which sits on gaggle land of the your nation whose sovereignty was never seated. Thank you to culverts, Patricia Reynolds and Matthew Rimma for your help with episode. If you like what you hit and he wanted to him all of these things programming hit subscribe in you'll put cost fate while you exercise democratic rights and leave us a review, you can also find out more information about this shirt on our website. That is to us y'all dot com slash thinks stain ability. I'm Shane Anderson. Thank you for listening.
#99 - Can Virtual Environments Help Us Save The Real One?
"This is think sustainability today pot to of how technology is connecting us with the natural world from producer, Shane Anderson. It sounds like a rainforest. You can hear the peaceful tutoring buds in the trees above and the gentle flow of water from a strain nearby. You can always here the humidity in the air. But none of this is real. Can you describe what you're seeing now? So ROY now, I mean, the lobby this is a custom entry point for the experience. So it's this is Ryan Watson head of community engagement at a not for profit called new horizons, and we're not in the middle of a rainforest where actually at new horizon Sydney headquarters and today Ryan is here to guide me on a virtual reality journey through a stray Leah's natural environments, a destination today is the Great Barrier. Reef point straight ahead when my little masters hovering over I click on it to enter. So I'm in now to the reef and I'm having a look around. I can see some people that are snorkeling and paddling around down on on directly above some really beautiful coral, I can see lots of fish and sort of moving through at a nice pace through the reef almost as if I was scuba diving and swimming under the water myself. Lots of amazing call life and fish, and I'm sort of coming up now out of the water. And I'm flying over the reef I can see some votes some little sandbars and oil off in the distance. And if oh down it's just the beautiful turquoise waters of the Great Barrier. Reef. It's really so it's it feels so real. Have you been to the Barrier Reef in real life to the right by rape? But never Ailey copter, and to do that sort of really low flyover over the Great Barrier. Reef for me was the really cool thing because it was a perspective never had on the on the reef. We often think of technology as creating a barrier between us in the environment. That were too busy looking at our screens to appreciate the world around us. But there are ways technology can help us to engage with nature on an emotional level. And it can open up doors to a world that for some seem to be permanently closed. I think it's a great question to ask is how does technology enabled us, and how do we make sure we do it in a way that inclusive Ryan and the team at new horizons came up with this virtual reality experience in response to questions like this. The project is called parallel pox and at aims to use technology to not just assist people. But to empower them. Great. Pirlo pox is an initiative that's aiming to help people with disability and other mobility issues to be able to remove barriers and access places. Parts of the world that they may never have otherwise been able to access through the power of reality. They wanted to know how they could make a stray Leah's national parks more accessible because why shouldn't the benefits of being outdoors be available to everyone at first. They had a couple of ideas as to how to do this one was raising money to build things like ramps within the national parks. But this came with a whole set of problems will there's obviously really high cost and a lot of complexity in being able to make some really inaccessible and remote places accessible when you have a disability or an accessory -bility issue holidays. Look a lot different before you've even left the door. You could be racking up an enormous Bill. Mayo you to go to the Great Barrier. Reef Mark cost us a couple of thousand dollars. Af as an accommodation. That's a much more costly and involve process, traveling with care is making sure that they have appropriate. Disability access at every place that they going those sorts of things make it a lot more complicated said they thought why not bring the pox to the people using virtual reality technology. That's already available on the market. Name is Catherine Marie Smith. I'm a young fifty. This is cath a program embassador full, parallel pox. She was also one of the first people to try this virtual reality experience. I like to go by king on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I love playing with my cat. Matilda Cass has limited mobility. She uses a wheelchair to get around and communicates through text to speech software. This is clearly Nouri Barrio to active lifestyle. I had a chat to about some of the challenges. She faces getting out into nature. I would love to do more in the way of activities. It's a bit hot for me. There is not even accessible rods in the Blue Mountains. I wanted to go on the train ride up and down the hills. But couldn't it is ridiculous. How much it costs for me to do very basic things? Have you ever used virtual reality before I had used V once but. It was a long time ago, which experience is your favorite and why I chose the Great Barrier. Reef because I am awarded baby. It took me back. There had been once before why do you think VR experiences of nature are important parallel? Pox is important because it brings exposure if I could have the experience of going up and down those hills in the Blue Mountains in via. I would I would always choose the reality smiley face. Virtual reality experiences of nature on supposed to be a replacement for that feeling of the sand between your tar who's or the smell of the social CF for someone like Kath. It's a way of relieving her experiences of the real world and to help plan for next trip for someone like Ryan, it's a way to see a place you've already been from a different perspective. And gain a new appreciation Ryan says that we should see this as a tool we don't want people sitting inside dying out experiencing the world through virtual reality that needs to be the right mix. But I think when you look at the power of the technology to be able to assise PayPal to enjoy an experience that might not otherwise today tomorrow next week. That's that's really where the power of this technology laws and Ryan found that parallel pox, could even go one step further and actually create a whole new experience. At a recent demonstration in Sydney. These Martin place parallel pox, invited members of the public to come along and test the equipment as part of that crowd sourced funding campaign, new young gentleman wheelchair was there with these Keira experienced the Great Barrier Reef. And when he took off his head said at the end of that experience the best thing look down. I didn't say a wheelchair. It's not surprising that people experiencing a place in via feelings by to get out into the real thing. Research has sharing that via creates a feeling of empathy for whatever it is your viewing. It's why humanitarian organizations have actually sought at using it to move us to help people donate to campaigns. However, this actually backfired earlier in the year in Sydney during a C or sleep out charity fundraising event with business leaders campout Irv night to raise money for harmless shelters. The event was widely criticized for having a virtual reality experience of what it's like to be harmless designed to inspire people to donate to charity, obviously, showing rich people images of harmlessness still hasn't ended poverty, and it raises questions about just what impact which reality has owned the way we see the world around us. How does this empathy actually guard when? When it comes to places like the Great Barrier Reef, which is under threat and will likely disappear now lifetime could've Ocho reality experience. Not only change our attitudes. But inspire us to act to save it. I had a chat to Glenn Albrecht over Skype. He used to be a professor of sustainability at modo Okina versity. But now his retired to Maitland about two hours north of Sydney to live in a sustainable house with chickens and a lot of buds about one hundred thirties flit around here during any given here. I'll stop for a second and listening. Tony what will go? We've got golden whistlers. We've got what throw to tree creepers and can here in the in ride in the background of whistling cut, which is very nice, very attuned era. Two hundred thirty species buds abode that one. Glenn says the past couple of hundred years of technological change have alienated from nature will live in cities and Ovan complexes maniac by technologies and those technologies, but very early nineteen technologies with respect to the rest of Niger and the rest of life and in recent years this change has been accelerating. Well, once was swamps announced high-rise developments bushland has turned into suburbs and farmland has toned into minds. Glenn wanted to study how our emotional connection to the physical environment is impacted by these rapid changes. So he went to the hunter region, which is the hot of New South Wales coal country. He wanted to talk to locals about what it was like for them to see that harms transformed by the destructive technologies of an urban coal mine. He was shocked by what he found because the noises machine. Nery and the the glare lights is there. All the time. You'll die. Tom is the stood because there's dust annoys. You'll landscape actually changing this until replaced by a mall of mines bowl. These mines twenty four seven three hundred sixty five days. So it's a foam of hell, which I think is not easily described in onery language. Everyone said they distressed Glenn realized that this change has been happening so fast, and we didn't even have a concept for it in the English language. So he called it Solis. Dow Jo- those can be coast via technologies life the technologies that an idol I've been cut comments to say the time comes from the woods solace. And nostalgia no matter where you are. You've probably experienced this disturbed sense of place as the world around us changes. Glenn describes it as homesickness you have. When you're still at home. It's not like medically defined depression is a foam of discomfort. So we can experience legitimate feelings of distress. When a Harmon virement changes, and is because we feel that strong emotional connection. It's a feeling of applies being disrupted, but in the digital age wet connected across time and distance like never before what is doing to us sense of place. I'm wondering how raw the definition of harm can bay. Can you be seeing changes happening to your neighborhood your region, you'll state and feel this? Yes, a believe it can be Skylab up and written extensively about the impact of comment. China all the lived experience of negative environmental impacts and on top of coal mining and the hunt, and we have increase in temperatures increase in the extremities of different types of weather events. And I'm believed that sell astounding is an adequate way of explaining many of our sponsors to global Kohl's effective, which is climate change impacting on us intensely locally. I mean, I've never been to the Great Barrier. Reef, but I've grown up with images of it end a sense that it's an Australian environment. And then it's very unique. And then also experiencing in the past couple of years like knowing that that environment is being destroyed, and it will probably likely never come back. Is that distress? I feel Sola Stauba even though I've never been the. Technically because you've not been it's not so style, Jim. And it's obviously a foam of virtual cell Estonia. We have such extensive media coverage of what's going on in the world. Now that I'm I'm happy for people to to to see that empathy for the Great Barrier. Reef is similar to the kind of experience that you would have if he went directly experiencing fist heads this virtual Seles tau Joe can bring out feeling of harm sickness for a place. We feel digitally connected to we are experiencing genuine feelings of distress. When we see images of coral bleaching all virtually dived through the crystal clear waters, knowing the climate change is destroying it. But Glenn says, this feeling isn't as strong as it is in people who do actually experience the Rafe on a daily basis if you look at the statements from scientists who are studying the racist hand, describe an. Credible said Millan Kolia about what is happening around the people that are experiencing style, you experiencing the curiously virtually by the work technology, maybe has a double edged role in that. Because I don't have a lived experience of the Great Barrier. Reef, but technology media saturation. Documentaries. Just replayed over and over throughout my life have made me feel as if I do have a connection to it. A good example of what you feel is. I actually studied the impact of the film avatar on big what the film was first released many people experienced a a sense of profound sadness when they live. Glenn says people even feel empathy for the movie avatar, the virtual world of pen Dora with its floating cliffs and impulsively told trays and incredible colorful creatures people wanted sorry badly to be a part of that. Well that when they left the cinema, and they were confronted with the cop hawk in the noise and the traffic they felt that same distress. Remain within the virtual world on Pandora because they found it to me a five bene- place to be in than the reality. That though about confronting the Capac. Ultimately, Glenn isn't sure that this virtual Seles tau is a good thing on the stand. How the virtual will is now in some respects a surrogate for the real world. But I believe that ultimately is still a foam of date island nation from life living prices and the date if you follow through the muddy enough the virtual world and its digital extensions is now responsible for approximately ten percent of the world's contribution to greenhouse gases and climate change to use technology to feel empathy for the natural world is also contributing to its destruction when we put on the headset all we can see idealized, visions of nature and not. The environmental impact. We've also caused was still disconnected from reality. Why wiccan void this really nasty? Cohen that went back this L's into we are now experiencing the destruction of the will. And it's leaving prices Vira system that is in a major contributed to in fact, alva- chill experiences of nature are not only contributing to the industries that produce also fuels. But it's also having an impact on the real versions of those places. Tourism numbers have risen sharply in places popular on Instagram. This is Jeremy Wilco lecturer in environment at the university of technology Sydney into voter hall a couple of weekends ago. I'd never heard before. It up on the intimate and was really surprised at the number of people at turned up international travelers to what would have been like a really locals only place. Jeremy says that the UP live nature on places like Instagram Gorey's, birth ways, the mall, we live in unofficial environments, and I guess the most sensitive we ought to the kind of perilla situation of forests and the more. We realize that the increasing rarity of places the Mojo when the see them. Technology is causing huge problems for our environment. But could it also provide the answer we've already seen the positive effects of will reality, and how it can help people who face excess ability challenges get access to places that might normally be closed off to them. But what if those places will closed off to protect the environment? Ryan, again, what are the audience was could we be filming destinations that because they are so fragile are actually off limits to everybody not just paper with disabilities. But the under such pressure or facing some very extreme threat. Could we allow people to experience these places without creating the kind of impact that it would have by visiting those places in the real world VR could have a potential use to give people access to places that humans destroying working alongside the environment. Like, this is also a step towards Glen sees. As the future of human environment relations. He wants humans to work alongside nature to create technologies that give us everything we need. But also dirt home the environment. Glenn calls at the sim beer scene, which is a kind of alternative to the anthroposophic. One and conceptualizing the extent of the human impact on planet earth. We are. Now, they nice powerful organizing false on the planet scene is about thinking of technology as pod of our environment about reintegrating tech into unnatural processes instead of innovating for the sake of innovation. We can use it to create a society that is fully renewable reusable or recyclable as young man, I was involved in demonstrations against wouldn't chipping the wall was part of anti nuclear movement and all those things authority important at the time. But at the moment, I can say nothing more important than having this planet in fit stike for human habitation into the future. This program originally, Ed on think digital futures think sustainability is made possible with the support of two SA university of technology, Sydney and just around the stralia by the community radio network. You can subscribe to the show on chiens. All you get your costs. Just such for think sustainability. This program is made in the two studios in Sydney on gotta go land of the ordination.
#98 - Emailing A Tree
"This is being sustainability today part one of a two part series exploring how technology can connect us with nature and this episode starts an Email exchange between producers, Shane Anderson and an elm tree that lives in a little park off a side street in Melbourne city. Hi L. I've never emailed a tree before. However when I stumbled upon this project, I was reminded of a recent trip. I took Melvin was waiting in a park for a lift to arrive eating bagels and admiring U. L? Got a couple of beds ducking in and out of your branches. You hadn't our leaves? It was winter. But he still had a kind of imprisoning I'd like to know more about you. Sincerely, yours. Shane. And a couple of days later the tree replied. Feller shane. Wow, I feel so special smiley face all the trees in the city. You chose may put a lovely memory. You have we've made I'm very lucky to leave in such a beautiful park. I have many hollows possums birds and Micromax popping in and out of my branches. I'm just starting to get back my beautiful leagues with summa providing some shade for my pock, people often sit unto me and read books in the flory's spring, sunshine. I have about twenty years plus life left in me, which is good for my age. I also love Caulton smiley face your friend, the elm tree ide- one or two one five four nine. This is part of a project called the urban forest visual by the Melbourne city council is easy to say that being glued to us greens is taking us away from the environment. But projects like the forest visual show us that things on always. So straightforward. This is the first half of cheap pod series, exploring the phone, lex relationship between technology and the environment. We've been using technology to shape the world around us since the early humans. I discovered file. In more modern times, we tend to think of nature and coach as kind of divide. That's the culture that way in the human world about friendships jobs day to day lives, and then as nature our external environment the stuff out there. What you see when you look out your window? But things haven't always been this way. We're saying that this idea of of the environment is something which would disconnected from fundamentally something that is simply, you know, it's wrong empirically, but it's a cultural thing which is changing slowly, we're gonna take a look at the ethics philosophy and economics of human environment relations in the digital age. We're going to explore the ways technology is helping bring us closer to and Fulham personal connections with nature, but at the same time, it's changing very ideas of what nature is in. Good. And not so good ways. The Email a tree program didn't initially set out to make pen pals with the wider community. It's part of a big urban forest strategy a huge project that maps every tree in Melbourne dots. Nearly seventy seven thousand and composite on a website. We can track them down. See what spaces? They are. How old they are? And how long they have left. I think it's the most studied set of trees anywhere in the world. This is council. Kathy arc from the city of Melvin who is actually one of the research is on the project before she became a counselor. She says he oven force visual came about as the city was recovering from the brutal millenium drought that made us think about the role of water. And and how we manage our trees the council began to collect data on every single tree, and you can find these online superimposed onto a map of the city h is mocked the specific ID where did the idea for the Email function come from? Well, the daughter that we have every single tree is locked. Each trees assigned a unique ID, and because the community was wanting to understand more about this nation that we're collecting every tree ide- was then Assan and he'd digital Email address. And the beginning the Email addresses served as an administrative function with falling off for that. The tree looked like it needed a drink core at vandalized. That's no how people started using it. It's turned into this Email a tree project and Oviously morphed into something more than just a straight Datta collection activity council started to receive love letters emails sharing personal memories, they'd had specific trees and engaging with them in unique and creative ways. I love the ones where people have actually looked at a tree, and then taking the time to draw a picture of that scene and send it to the trees full years into the project and they've received about four and a half thousand emails. Kathy says a lot of these actually from people who were expressing sadness. For a tree that didn't have much longer left cripple quite emotional. When they when they know that the tree is, you know, at the end of its life or be needing to be removed for some reason, you know, the emotional outpouring of grief betrays is, you know, it's it's waste and yet oversleep sad. Hi, elm. It's so nice to hear from you. I'm kinda sad to hear that you only have about twenty years left. I'd always wanted trees live longer than the people who would Maya them. I bet you've seen calls like no one else has sincerely awards chain. Hi shea. Yes. It is. But you never know how long you really have left. It could be one year or it could be forty. Luckily, my neighbors love me, so heartfully they will help me hang onto this beautiful life. I have definitely seen a lot of changes both good and bad. I'm not so sure, but I ain't to live life to the fullest. Appreciate all the animals around me and the coming and going of seasons and continue being tremendous. Thanks elm, tree ide- one or two one five four nine. I wanted to know what her jets like the urban forest visual say about the way, we use technology Turley to our environment, and whether or not emailing treat is actually bringing us closer to nature. So I spoke to Jeremy Woolcott Electra and environment coach in society at the university of technology, Sydney. I started by asking him what he thought of the Email the tree program. But like it. It's like where I leave veggies trees down without telling you, then ask you and replace them with concrete. So a really nice program. We would adopt it where I leave Sydney. It always comes back to that. But, but I think that there is a the designed to I dunno to feel connected to the world to the living world, if we look at the long history in through all the different answer, political diversity of human coaches, he's actually fairly probably more common than the kind of philosphy disconnection that that we have lived through for the last couple of centuries talking the environment just talking about an actual pock. No. And suddenly idea that the environment is the bits of nature that we've decided not to destroy national pox, kind of Komen one. But yeah, the environmental at more than that. I mean, if we will around where we are. Now, my environment is almost completely artificial in the sense that it's manufactured, you know, it's infrastructure conduit spots, Tillich trinity. It's gloss. It's looks cop. It all of those things up when we say, that's our environment immediately. I love support system. And then there's another environment. If that environment, which is the has the Beckham. And laughs oppose system, our environment isn't just the oceans and the trees it's the interconnected ecosystems that we live in. And that includes things that a man made and things that are natural. They birth make our environment on different scales. But rather than think about selves pot of this ecosystem, we think about selves outside of it. Jeremy explains environmental studies in the first thing, I always say is the very idea of the environment. Something which is distinct from us is a side effect of the distancing of that technology Marin last five hundred years release in the way that we have kind of separated Nitra out from society the way, we even think about it as something which is external to us. And when our environment is external to us. It becomes a thing that we need to connect to this way of thinking about the environment is particularly Moton and western approach to the world around us, and we can credit technology for its contribution to this. Thanks to will the incredible inventions. We've developed roughly. Leeson seen dusty revolution. All of which we use to control and change our environment into things that serve Al puppa's things like cities and smartphones. But this way of thinking comes at the cost of the big context. Jeremy says we only have to look at the example of the small very to see this disconnection action. Many people would think about the fact that every time they charge they find, you know, ninety percent of that energy is coming from combustion of co in. If you're living in New South Wales at the moment, if we look it is stray Leah specific. Is there a way that you would use generally to describe how we relate to our environment? Is there particular stray leeann way that this happens the Jones photo complex because we relate to the environment in so many different ways through, you know, throw everyday consumption. So if you taking the example gonna be mobile phone, your, you know, it has rare earth minerals from that a mind, you know, under extremely bad conditions, possibly slavery and just driving wolf in in the Congo, for example. So the the the iphone is our global environmental relationships, very material. But also, social in the sense that you know, drives the conditions of life in factories in China and waste it's dispose internationally, and she you know, electric Weiss give a whole H. Raiding anyway, so just taking even one commodity the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of commodities that we purchase or consume all of those things are really global relationships. Modem technology like the mobile fern, as you said that piece of technology when we hold it in our hand wherever moved from those processes, like the rare earth minerals in the political context of the countries that we import in from that that is all I guess in alienated from the environment though. So from society in the sense that I mean, this is a very hold inside that goes back to Marx critique of commodities in the mid eighteen hundreds cul marks theory of political economy code capital in it. He writes that commodities were object or good or a service that can be bought or sold out society is market based which means that the wheels about society keep turning because of the constant exchange of these commodities. And on treatment of the environment became shoehorned into the same cycle of production and consumption, the cultural conditions of living in a world where we buy and sell commodities might fit conditions in which they're produced by the social and environmental conditions. The invisible we don't see them. And we don't think about them. We just say something shining on the shelf that we wanted we buy it. And what role does technology play in this? Jeremy says technology is ubiquitous the story about technology's very inherent to what it means to be human. Human beings have transformed literally transformed and cooked the earth for very long time to transform it into things that they want technologies we've invented made our economic system possible. And that covers everything from the ships. We used to transport coffee beans and sugar and tobacco right down to the everyday little things we think about like, Al phones computers and watches. Even the evolution of technology is bundled in with the liaisson between us and the environment. This isn't the only way that things have to be tech. Also, empower us it can create pockets small cracks through which nature can grow through projects. Like the Email tree program. Do have the potential to influence the way relate to our environment. Technology is able to connect with the outdoors in a way that we have. Kathy says despite the novelty of emailing tree, the focus of the program was always about the real thing. They wanted people to be inspired to actually get out into nature, and it's been great use technology to you know, engage with people on something that is really project. It's outside. You know, we wanting people to engage with actual trees, and we're wanting to to get a look benefits of cooling and shading and the well being health benefits of nature in the city, but for Kathy via Email, a tree program did change the way, she the environment. You know forest team. You know, the daughter was all important to get the daughter and display the daughter. It was actually a process of connecting with artists in our community who really responded, certainly it's changed my approach to community engagement and understanding how to tell the story of climate change and technology is has enabled us to connect with the outdoors in a way that we had thought possible. Now, he can use technology to bring us closer. To the environment. But at the end of the day is this enough to save it in the second half of series on the relationship between technology and the environment. What going to take virtual reality dive into the Great Barrier. Reef and look at whether the second hand experiences of nature a helping Ojomo in climate change. In the meantime, if you'll feel inspired to communicate with the tree than those linked to the open forest visual website. I'm gonna leave you now with some more of the emails that people sent into the trees as right out by some of the produces. He at to see off enjoy. Penman tree ide- one three five seven nine eight two. Hello, MS Dewilder leaf peppermint. Or should I say? Hello, MS the Willer leaf peppermint. Or should I say, MRs willa? So it's sorry here. I love it. Okay. Hello. Mr. Wheeler leaf peppermint. Or should I say MRs Willer leaf peppermint trees have Jenin's? I hope you've had some nice sun today. Western red cedar tree ide- one I five eight two nine five. Light-rail you are being affected by the Greek debt crisis should Greece pill out to stay in the European Union. Regards troy. Golden elm trae ID one zero three seven one four eight. I'm sorry. You're gonna Dawson it makes you sad when trucks damage of low hanging branches. Are you tired of construction work as we have? Three one three two seven five d Jiri in oak. Thank you for giving us oxygen? Thank you for being. So pretty uttered nowhere at bay without you to extract my carbon dioxide, stay strong stint toll amongst the crowds. You will the gift that keeps on giving. Shane Indusin with that story. This show originally Ed on what about pot programs think digital futures. You can subscribe to think till futures and thinks the stability on ITN's all wherever you get your podcasts. Think sustainability is made possible with this support of two SEI the university of technology Sydney and his head around the stralia by the community radio network next week pot to Ken virtual environments, help us save the real one. I'm checking.
DR. LOUISE STANGER: ADDICTION & THE FAMILY: EP.. 76
"So my passion for wanting to work with family or wanting to change family comes from my own family of origin and knowing that addict alcoholism addiction how it is a disease and that it is progressive chronic and left untreated fatal but the families also play a part in the disease in the change. Transformation is possible. Are you curious about discovering ways of making your life. Better than. Welcome to my podcast. I'm bob nick. Mun and this is the exploding human. Do listen while. I talk with all kinds of people in the fields of personal growth. Health and healing alternatives therapies psychology spirituality environment. And the future. I'm looking for those answers that make life better for everyone you'll meet cutting edge practitioners. Doctors artists filmmaker business people and those who have overcome challenges. The brave curious anyone who is out there helping us humans to explore expand and explode. Hey welcome to the exploding human. I'm bob nick. Mun and today's guest is dr louise stagger and she is going to be talking to me about interventions drug addiction mental health issues and some of the issues seniors are facing in those areas. More about that in a second. I i'd like to invite you to visit my website. The exploding human dot com check that out to all the episodes are on there and Synopses of the episodes photos of my guests little bio on myself donate button. If you'd like to support the show and also like to invite you to subscribe to my youtube channel. Which is the exploding human with bob. Nick mun add with bob nick mun to find that youtube channel and You can listen to the episodes there to. Maybe you're playing around the computer and you wanna hear a good podcast so check that out. Dr louise stagger is my guest today. Lewis has been involved in the recovery industry for many decades as an interventionist and the social worker at teacher and she lectures all around the country. And we're gonna be talking about drug addiction mental health issues how we Her approach to Interventions and some of the issues that seniors are facing with addiction and mental health problems particularly in light of the pandemic which is exacerbated. Many of these problems. Louise is delightful. I have to say she is a very caring and loving person who's approach is one of empowerment and love and that's what makes her a very special person and please enjoy the episode. This is dr louise stagger. good morning. Lewis tangere good morning. It's so nice to meet you and be with you today. You too and big. Thanks to shane anderson for Introducing us in Making this possible. And i'm and i'm so glad that we get to finally talk. I've heard so many wonderful things about the work that you do and the kind of person you are. I think you enchaine chain is just the best so a big shoutout to shane right now. See shane you get mentioned A podcast more than once. How about that. He's probably listening and laughing right now. So you have worked in the field of recovery addiction mental health for of quite a while decades and And you teach People so let's start with how you got into this field and then talk about a little bit about what you're doing and then we'll get into your book and all kinds of stuff. We're here for a while. Okay well thank you. So i of was born on a fault. Line of trauma My family of origin. The very very successful was filled with substance use disorder mental health anxiety. Depression bipolar Death by suicide and yet they Were creative resilient. And i was we were just a little strange and so i grew up at the ripe old age of twenty and became a social worker and actually had gone from Pittsburgh rare my undergraduate degree pit was an had married. My first husband to is deceased in. We ended up in san diego because when you are navy danis usually in those days. You got your training by being in the service in. That was sort of the height of vietnam and at that time i went to graduate school at sandy. What was in saying the state college school social work. And i was a good writer at least good enough for social work against say good enough as an english lit writer and i was invited to teach at the graduate school of social were given Along the way addiction just seemed to always circle. Its head around me and i was really trying to sort it out. Figure it out and so when the law changed a lot changed for graduate schools or for undergraduate schools that social workers marriage family counselors psychologists had to have a course a semester course in substance use because people were looking at the numbers in seeing how it was related to so many other things i had. The opportunity of creating the first horse in in in southern california on a college level was really easy for me to bring in guest lecturers And one day I brought in a gentleman. In a short i am. He was as tall. Shane in very stately six five. Yeah he was a pastor and his name was dr frank card and at that time he was. The director of a treatment center in oregon called spring bro but when doctor picard spoke i am not too sure what the rest of my class was doing. My heart stopped. He wrote a book in opposition to the granddaddy of intervention. Who was burned. Johnson called family intervention and doctor ricard. Describe my family. And i just was caught by what he said the other thing i was so caught for as a social i am absolutely positively phenomenal in crisis crisis. I can solve it. I can be very solution focused. I can navigate through. And i can weather because i myself experienced. Five seven destin. My lifetime so crisis was sort of my middle name. And i wanted to do with dr So he actually trained me in the old fashioned sort of surprise intervention. And i would do those on the side. I was sort of wooed away from san diego state by the university of san diego which is a small private catholic university That had a higher per capita drinking. Rate and i wanted to get a grant my ego said to get this million dollar grant because you can do it. There and it was apparent based intervention to reduce high risk problematic drinking so i left san diego state and i went over to usd which was a great experience. Because it leads me to where i am. Today i was able to get the grants. I was able to bring in more money than they had ever seen and i was a terrible fit a terrible fit. I just Didn't fit into the maluku in quite the same way and i was a great collaborator like unrated putting together teams of people that i think are equal or they can do different things. But i wasn't so great within inherited staff and in january that you're left the university because they said you know i've been doing these on this side all the time one on i just put a shingle up. I've been doing. I also do them differently. I did them no surprises. I hired a team. May i thought it should be a potato. Why don't i just do that. So in my brain. I just developed. I thought it'd be i in the yellow pages. Maybe only you. And i remember with the yellow pages army. Yes we do. I all of that preventions and That's how i really started my company. And i was blessed in that. Even though i was in san diego i did not know the entire world of recovery or treatment and again i came in as a family member. Someone who had been in recovery from family Thanks to a family program. Many years ago And i met a treatment facility owners to our own business today than ed marion's tola they've been in business for over thirty years originally from new jersey. It's called fun life. And they invited me to go speak at a conference in florida the breakers and so i talked about what i'm passionate about which is family and i had never been one of those conferences before it was huge so many players but i was blast on that day in that particular time. I gave a dynamite last halloween. No that i didn't know what at the time This large group all of a sudden reached out to me and said you're the fan favourite lecture and i could never figure that out but that helped propel me on my way. Wow that was an amazing story. I was fascinated and in this comes up a lot in my podcast is the role that trauma in a family plays in mental health issues and addiction. I know you know we talk about people that are addicted having a A physical allergy and yes that is true but there is a trauma factor. I think that may may exacerbate that more with those people than others and it may even be the sole reason. I don't know if that is even a popular stance. Where trauma is the thing that people are trying to escape and they become addicts because of this because of trauma. I think that's a great question. First of all let me Just defined trauma for you Because there is trauma could be both subjective and objective subjective somehow or other untold. I'm not good enough objective. Something happens to me so in my first book which i wrote which is memoir falling up. You can learn that. As a young child i was taught i was too fat in have i had a lawyers is on holes and they said had that table manners. It just wasn't good enough somehow but it's honest objective level When i was seven years old. I was at dinner and suddenly. My mother had to leave and my was still stuck with these uncles. Who were just always yucky. Always iggy and i had to spend the night there only to be woken up with my mother in a friend with alcohol in their brass letting me know that my father went to fly with which meant he die but he didn't know how he died because in those days they wanted to shield you. You weren't allowed to go to the funeral. And there was always hush hush-hush let tell you. When i was in third grade and i returned to school. I was out on the playground and i felt really strange going back to school and everything. I didn't really want to go back. Didn't have a dad anymore. Everybody was sort of accumulator. That i didn't know why and then all of a sudden little the an she had big red hair and freckles and she skipped on over to me and oh i forgot. I know how my father died. He must have been like superman. He died from kryptonite. That's what i had imagined in my head and she came over skipping over and she said to me will be in. Do you know how your father died. I wasn't gonna tell with the and he was taken out by kryptonite. And so i just sort of had a quizzical look and then. She said with the sound of thunder. I am sure resonating to my body. He hung himself with a time. And that's how i met you know That sort of trauma. If i went back and i'm pretty famous. Shane can tell you because he knows how to do them. Family mapping look we look at just trying to figure out about a family we we would learn historically that my poor father followed in his mothers and fathers footsteps who also died by suicide. Forty eight if. I took a look at my mom who definitely had a substance abuse problem designing depression. She was given the dubious tasks to taking care of my grandmother who was institutionalized in a pretty famous place at not launch. That's where the author of tuesday were maury tuesdays with morrie. That's where he in turn but the very rich were sent there when they wanted to get out of the way of up and the uncles really wanted her money. They were friends with my uncle. Took the psychiatrist across the country. I mean to europe. My other uncle was was best friends with the judge who committed. Oh so they were just pure nipple of crooks so in my family history. I mean literally and then marrying a person. My first cousin was certainly talented. It certainly had 'isms I certainly could read little 'isms let's put it that way. And so my passion for wanting to work with family or wanting to change family comes from my own family of origin and knowing that addiction alcoholism addiction it is a disease and that it is progressive chronic and left untreated fatal. But the families also play a part in the disease absolutely in the change and transformation is possible you know i heard a definition of trauma the other would trauma actually means like the definition. I don't know where this went back to. If it was some sort of you know original language of something that it means being Separate from yourself. That whatever happens you. You are separated in either imagined or real ways from your true nature now whether it's by Abusive language or belief systems that don't really resonate with the true self or actual events that caused people to Dissociate from you know who they are because it's too painful or whatever it is that really is the root of it and then getting back to and we can talk about how we do that. Getting back to that. True person is really worthy. Healing is getting back to you know who you are but don't forget the today argue that we're all living in a collective trauma bubble. No kidding you know when you start talking about traumas collective. We can talk about earthquakes. We can talk about floods. We can talk about fires last year. The woosley fire them. You know the malibu fires we can talk about all these things in yes. There is a way that we try to navigate like this is just not so and if obviously some you may disassociate safe for example you unwanted sexual advances. But you're learning how. How can i help. Navigate or numb. I thought which is really. You know that i'm good enough or nah. In oftentimes people might turn to alcohol other drugs are they might turn to food disordered eating to help ease the pain or make up a story and so i guess. Well i realized. There's all these trauma based therapies and. I probably have got some to many initials next to my name to say what i'm actually skilled in. I think the most important thing we have to do with anybody is start where client yes. Listen to their story. Because their story is unique and they're they're trade. Tales are unique. So you have to sort of throw out the textbook so to speak and then also look for resiliency in strain a firm someone For being able to navigate the way they have and take a look at lake. How things are working in. What can you differently. Ackerley make this even better. Yeah i always look at these things that we do to Make ourselves feel better survival tools that we reach a point that they're not working anymore and we need something else to replace them these these so you know what i like to say as you know. Thank the survival tool rather than uh. This is something i have to get rid of. Its like oh well you know. Alcohol really did serve me. It made me feel okay for x. Number of years in these awkward and fearful situations. Now it's turned on me. But i can thank it for what it did for me. So it's not this terrible enemy. It's this thing that no longer serves me. That's how i i like to look at that time. So that's how we work with families. We know that families are often. We use the word. Denial they families Colest- around the identified loved one. The person that has the substance used or mental health or chronic pain disorder and they're used to functioning that way and they might look the other way. Oh it's really not that bad or they might say because we're older you know what they're seventy you know who cares. It's just the way you know. Aunt louise's you know. We don't need to do anything about it Or the was really not that bad at all. I still have a house. I still have good things. I have blah blah blah blah. But denial wears out. Its welcome both of the family with the identified love when the person who is experiencing the substance use disorder Because it no longer serves its purpose. So you're absolutely positively correct. I'm intrigued by this article. That i was checking out about that. You were talking about which is You call it the silver soon nami which i found really interesting that we're looking at You know older senior citizens that are having these You know substance abuse and mental health issues. It's not just you know grandma's smoking weed. It's it's like you know i'm laughing because i'm picturing my grandmother smoking weed but The it's not funny. It's it's it's very Probably is particularly with the pandemic. it's probably increased the sense a sense of loneliness. And how do you deal with that. So ironically I started doing some writing looking into marijuana and specifically when i was invited to a party at seventy two am out what and it was actually a high school reunion. That was going to be held in. Someone's fancy house in malibu. But i grew up in pittsburgh so i some pittsburgh the made to malibu and i grew up in cleveland so they were from the same part of the world. Then you understand so in any event like i was going what it said outbreak. Bya obey bring your own booze but also applied. the pa. and i called on my class may because i felt really awkward. I said you know there. This is not anything i can do. I mean i'm a licensed clinician. I do complicated. mental health substance abuse interventions in. The last couple have been people in in substance induced psychosis from one as i feel really uncomfortable. So i'm gonna tell the truth. And so i called him up and he just was like absolutely a gas so he sent out an email apps to the rest of the class and said it classmate has just said they don't wanna come if we have marijuana so perhaps i won't have it i mean could there be anything more damaging and then i started to do research and i found the boomers of the fastest growing population of consumers of marijuana in the country and then i realized at the time i was doing this research i was living in palm desert in indian wells and i took a look around and i realized there were two things going on first of all. It is an older population that comes migrating in our lives there. Second of all some of the biggest growers in the country art in the desert and on alpe ceo which is the sort of like the rodeo. Not white of palm desert. There is a wonderful store while the leaf which looks like a high end dress store It's owned by the owners of big horn. Which is one of the more wealthy in the desert and the whole idea was marketing towards seniors. It can do absolutely anything for you anytime. Any place anywhere then. I also took a look at the data on alcohol and in the desert The rouse in makita sells more wine than any other rouse in the united states. And so you don't have won a drive in the desert five o'clock pm because or be is the people are so so. We're so there. And so i took a look at you know what is the use of substance use and misuse amongst older adults. Obviously there are people that have what we call late onset alcoholism. We're the during their life. They didn't but they're lonely And they're isolated and we know that Alcoholism or addiction is a disease of isolation and recovery is is Is up connection. But if you've ever gone to the cvs or the right age and looked at the checkout stands or you've ever gone to a grocery store you can see how it's target market it and so with aging does come aches and pains. And so how do i take care of them. You know and i going to take care of them without with aging does com. You lose friends. You lose your soul mates. Your world shrinks a little bit And so there is a increase in substance use disorders amongst aging There's also Some other alarming fats. And that is death by suicide for men over fifty. A is high debt by suicide of men who are aged seventy three over who just were released from a home. Like following a fall or an accident is astronomical. You know sent their common. I don't know. I mean. I should stop from because i can just keep going on all vasseur so so i guess you know what happens to people. And i'm trying to put myself in that position. Because i'm nearing those ages that How would i feel you know. How would i feel. After let's say a fall. I would feel really vulnerable. Really frayed It's only gonna get worse. These are some of the thoughts. I would have and If there wasn't any kind of support system i could easily see spiraling into a very dark place. Very quickly So what what do you tell. People to To help them navigate those situations. I say let's take a look at that senior in your life. That senior that you care about do they live. Who did they relate to. Who were their friends. Who were there painting says And what is your living situation. Because you really wanna make sure that there's some sort of connection Because if there isn't there are ways to do it like i do. Think of shane anderson right now. Shane for example. Every week goes shopping for senior. And he says he's become the best at the ninety nine cents store when my mother. Dorothy sword civil black wallet levin he was the icon a classic to sort of like loretta young and she could design clothes better than share. Bob macky when she was younger but she lived in hawaii the last sixteen years of her life and she did drink and she probably was the one person that i would have loved to have intervened on that i never was seemed to be able to get that There But she had a navy person that volunteered to be her helper. She also had a transvestite. She was interesting lady who help take care of her She had some social support to help. Navigate her along the way. And i think that that's the first thing is let's take a look at what are the social supports available free or otherwise rights What does this then type a look at the person not everybody is a joiner okay. Everybody likes a group Even know we know that twelve step is is just fabulous for recovery. But how can we begin to join up with someone one on one and then help ridge them. So where in the aging community. Can i find like sort of a recovery coach to help them on their way to let them remember that they are worthwhile and to do that. Obviously we have organizations are public organizations such as adult protective services. Look with aging. I remember a long time ago. I read professor's name was theodore litz and he said with aging. You're no longer that wild machine creek in grown a bit. Your eyesight changes seven times in your lifetime. I think mine changed all at forty. I don't know why things don't work as well. They just don't is no matter when you look in the mirror Sometimes i might see a thirty year old. But i really am a seventy four. You know in some things. I do might be like a four year old but i still and i said i'm not gonna say i can't be that whippersnapper something but i think what we can do as family members is honored that person they have a story they have a story and every life is worthwhile and so the extent to which she don't shock it off in grandma grandpa or you drink too much and you or smoke too much. That that's just the way there is no. There's always hope and there's always a solution you know. I've done interventions or invitations. Change on people probably as old as eighty three and so for me to think that we couldn't always have a chance to rewrite our story or to understand that there might be other factors causing apparent behaviors. So with one woman who was wonderful. She's beautiful she was a physician and she's originally from india but she had early onset awesome. In that's what was causing the gambling but instead of being shamed in everything by her family's really being able to get that physical that with a gerontologist of find out what's going on work to coach check on somebody. I think that's one of the things that is missing in our society a lot is the idea of neighborhoods and communities that check on each each other. You know there's There's a woman that lives across the street from me who Her husband died in twenty plus years ago and she's been living alone since then no children and she started to lose some her mental faculties and no one was really helping until my wife and i just went. Can we help you. we have to help you. And so we've taken on this responsibility which was quite a bit. At first it's sort of a well oiled machine now. She was fortunate to have a long term care insurance. So between us navigating her needs In all areas. She's happy as i've ever seen her she has people living with her Two different women that take care of her and they have meals with her and they watch. Tv you thinking about that in la. There's meals on wheels last thanksgiving on this thanksgiving. We delivered food from angel. Food project. angel food for you. you know. There's all kinds of access of resources you can do. It just takes somebody willing to do the thing. Say hey someone's worth the risk and you know used as always undulated before isaac's good looking at sexy. you know. think of the magazine. Kim koi dashing sells You know even now you know. Meryl streep is beautiful. She doesn't sell his well. I'm let's face it. You're been in the entertainment industry You know how many parts of for aging women them you know. And so you. I think that when you take a look at it the crazy part about aging is. Are you ready for this. Yes i am unless something happens everybody gets to grow on and yet there. Is you talk about this association. It's not me never will be me and you know And so oh really. That doesn't look like me. I mean they're just and so if we want to really take care of ourselves we want to do some planning The other thing. That's really i think. Keeps people alive is intergenerational work when of a torn after day-care in cardiff by the sea. Many many years ago we made sure that it was intergenerational meaning that there were grandparents that were hired to work at day care not for their own children but there is intergenerational sorts of daycare in the same fashion There's there doesn't need to be age segregated housing. Yeah i was. That was the fascinating thing i read. I don't remember what country it was. But what they did was. They took a A retirement community and they rented rooms to college students. They screened him pretty well and gave them really good prices on their their Rent in exchange for being active in the lives of the seniors and it was a a really wonderful symbiotic relationship that these people developed with each other and it was. It was pure genius. It was so when you read about it and you know we don't really do that here and maybe there are some communities. That are doing that. I don't know. I haven't heard about it but when i read that article i went. This makes complete sense. Everybody wins in this that situation. He's absolutely brian and i really I really believe that. i know that. my professor us ninety three and he's sharpe's attack although he's lost his eyesight lives in a facility called wesley palms in san diego and what brings him joy. He's his genius mean. I never understood what he said before. Rams twenty and even sometimes when he talks now. I just chuckle away because he so existential growing in dr hayward than i always Honor him in any of my books because of twenty believed in me And he told me anyone could be authentic but even there they had a couple of groups that are on by college students and or you know young. Master's degree students and it makes such a difference because these people that are living in age segregated housing they have lives and they were brilliant. And you know they have a crash to share. It may not be the way you do it But it may be the way. Let's talk about your new book. Oh okay thank you. I'm what my third book. And i'm really excited about it. It's called addiction in the family. And what is is helping. Families navigate challenges emotions in recovery. I think there's a couple of things that are really unique about at one. I was commission by media house to write it during kobe. This book was written during at. I signed a contract in march. It was done in june. And it's really built on. And i don't get residuals for it so but i really want you to buy it. Okay nyc work. That i that i think everybody needs is the guidebook. I wish i had. It is founded on two principles. People call us up and they're in crisis and they asked really to two major questions. Why can i do. And what can i say. What should i say and so. This book really is six easy chapters. You can pick up any chapter. And anytime explains what. Addiction is explains Explains what recovering means it talks about what. What types of treatment there are it gives case examples and it At the end of every chapter. There's a self cara tiffany because it's so important for you as a family member to also take care of yourself so whether it's breathing whether it's walking whether it's meditating whether it's turn away obviously last chapters being of service if an writing you also take care of yourself and it's inviting teaches you talk to people the idea of The keeping secret because of shame to the family and not talking about it. Or having somebody be so resistant. You know that's really a hard thing to i. I would think interventions is when you have somebody who's very resistant that doesn't want to Admit to themselves or to other people that they have a have a problem even they know they do. How do you break through that. I love that question. Thank you first of all know is just a conversation starter in our business. We eskimos have a thousand words for snow. I've heard a thousand words for now and what you tryin. Do you try and you develop a team. That's really coached to break into what we call the honeycomb denial because we do that through hearts centered scientific work there in in really it is heart her in hope we asked me invite all the people that are participants for we learn about them. We interviewed them individually. I use a research. Methodology called portraiture developed by sarah lawrence lightfoot of harburg and i've used it before and major research projects but we invite you. Tell me something about yourself. I wanna learn about you. What and then. I'm gonna ask you what's special about the loved one. The person that we will tell me something special. There's nothing i hate them out would go back in your memory. What was a good memory because we gotta break ins honey cone and maybe it was when we were little kids we man fishing or you know you help me with my mother or whatever it is. There's always something and then what's breaking your heart. Today will last week. When when when i went to see him he couldn't remember my name and he yelled and he screened and i watched in there. All those people hang on You know i think of. I'm just gonna regress him in it. I just read an article yesterday which is on my website which will be up. And it's on the death of tony. High sch- delivering happiness. And you know here. The forty seven year old genius. Harvard graduate who was hell bent on developing zap does delivering happiness and yet he was surrounded like the emperor with the emperor's new clothes of yes people who didn't choose to intervene with the exception of my understanding is jewel. The singer had met him on. Necker island with richard branson and she was invited to park city and she went there and she left a day later and she didn't have a team but she won't she any at that time. He was so obsessed that he wouldn't even take a letter. I mean he wouldn't take email or other things so she wrote a letter and she said to him. You know i'm worried about you. You're surrounded by people who don't care too many drugs now joel could've multiplied herself or there were other people that were in that room. Maybe tony would not have died the way he died this past week. I don't know but thing is that you're trying to break into the honeycomb of denial and by doing that you tell stories. We intervention is. Don't do much if we're good. Were like a butterfly tarantula on the wall take your pack but very saw all these people have beautiful stories about the person and when you're surrounded by grew and has to be in a group i mean it's not like that traditional like you see on tv because we can sidebar off but the power of a group to break into. Denial is so great. And it's not like you need to be to letter. Because i like you to talk from your heart. But what's special your. This is a living. Eulogy in mentioned is essentially a living eulogy. I'm saying to you how special you are. How much. I care about you and how frightened. I'm also telling you. I want you to go get help to. I don't really have to tell you what i'm not willing to do anymore. Unless you get feisty they know and then you have to decide. This person's been given invitation. They may have letters to go with them. Do they need time just to sit process. Because i'm not gonna have you over for the football game every sunday. Not doing it anymore. I'm not going to go out with you and watch you drink what you fall down. I'm not even gonna come to the hospital when you fall down. Punctured your lung. Because you've been drinking too much newer. Am i going to bail you out of jail when you had d you. I ran into three. Cars ran away from the police in hit the person. I mean a. Take away your business. I'm not gonna do that anymore. You try not to get all those boundaries and if you can do it through acts of love so i i to me. I think invitations to change our central. They there orchestrated. Yes they're they're both an art and science. Not everybody can go do them. I think you need training. The part that might be tough would be well. I'm sure all of its stuff. But the the idea of the f- how the family and the loved ones get just as sick. I give samolis no-fault insurance living. Everybody did the best they could do with the resources they had And thanks so much for engaging us and maybe we can learn how to do things a little bit different. Because it's true a family co alaska's unconsciously around the loved one and everybody benefits from you know if janis the bad one or shane's the bad one or louise's the bathroom can. I can still stayed the good one. But if shane gets better louise's gets better. Then what happens to my position and all this is on an unconscious level. I don't get to be the star anymore. Right so you have to retrain so i work with people i mean. Obviously i work on it. We work in your service capability. I don't work with a lot of families at one time. But i don't just come and do an intervention. Hello goodbye Because i'm not interested in doing that. It's a lot of research on the amex of we do. Solution focused recovery coaching. And so we work with families over a period of six seed in ninety days if they want and we help them navigate those changes. We reconnect them out there with other resource and sometimes when you do an intervention on one person or they call you up and say when it intervene on my wife i go. You have to go to treatment. First before i can do that. I have done not sure. Sure me and Mr anderson can verify that did happen And they did go and a change in the may and they were you know they were adult child of an alcoholic like me and you know they may changes and then wife could go with. Nothing was going to happen. Nothing changes ninety seven percent of all intervention. mark is. I done on the thing with the family. I definitely native enable family. It could be the business manager. The state manager the entertainment attorney. You know it's all those things the hairdresser you know. It's not just always mom dad. Yeah now you also Teach the university of california san diego. And i just signed a contract to develop advanced intervention. Course it's going to be offered in the summer of this year. And it i. It'll be zoom and i am trying to figure out whether it's going to be totally one that could be accessed like in perpetuity or it could be accessed and it'll be given to people who are interested i mean They could be professionals in the community. as well as people were getting an alcohol drug certificate this. I don't know what made me think of this. But you know they particularly with teenagers that are under eighteen. That are just completely off the rails. Sometimes they have these people that I guess for lack of a better word kidnap them. That's why i don't understand that. I don't i don't either. But i i i i. I understand appearance frustration with a kid. Who's just completely unreachable. Are people that come in and i would have never understood that. They're so afraid of these adolescence. That people have called us from their cars. The cars negawatts your car. Oh by the way this also happens with forty year olds if they're living at how the people are afraid to talk about the child because they don't want him to hear because they now ruled the roost we've had people who put locks on the doors. On the garages people his they're living in abject sharon i think you know. I'm not a adolescent specialists. Although i do a lot of training for paradigm in a done that that's not always my wheelhouse. But i do think parents can learn how to take their power back and I think the days of extractions which you hear like that maybe happens thirty five years ago. I don't know that they're so gone on. Maybe they are but that's no way to get a kid to treat and it. I always think when you're under eighteen. Your parents can still rule the roost when parents are just afraid. They're afraid to say what you have to go live out on the street me house will. That's the dilemma for Some parents is. The kid is out of control. They're creating havoc in the home. Maybe there's younger children. Also that are being affected adversely and it's a risk to their safety yet. Legally the parents are responsible so kids fifteen sixteen and it's impossible to have them in the house because they're so out of control yet if you get kicked them out you're in trouble as a legally when you are when you do save trans for a lot of time there to people that will do the safe transport you know. Wanna make sure that. Someone's in the back seat. You don't wanna see anyone you know you have child locks on you do that for an adult to even say in. I think the beautiful thing is that people are given an opportunity to rewrite their story. Because i really believe that. Transformation comes to rewrite in your story with recovery however you define recovery and i think everybody's worthy of re writing that story i never met anybody might life said. Hey when i grow up. Guess what. I want to be when i grow up. I want someone to call me. Alcoholic comey mobile. No it doesn't happen that way you know i. It doesn't happen that way. And and i. I really invite people to drop the stigma. This is a disease people on with this disease. Do terrible things. I'm not saying they don't but it's a disease and everybody deserves have a wife while lipped. And whether you're eighty four seventy four or fourteen. How can we help you. Rice your best possible sell happily help you navigate some of the challenges you face and how. What other coping skills can we give you. So you don't have to rely on mind altering substances to navigate your way because they do take on and have a life of their own. The interesting thing about what you're saying is you know there's that old saying there's no second acts in life but there are there are in this is. This is the way to do it. If you're you're suffering from some of the things we've been talking about thank you so much for talking to me today. That went so fast. Oh you're such a nice person to talk to like just so exciting to be able to be with you. Oh same here and it loved to learn more about what you do and thank you so much for doing the podcast and for inspiring change. Yeah that's that's why i do it. That's that's the that's the impetus is to you know. Help people to find ways to to heal and become more vast. i guess would be the. Let's plug your website. People can go visit you and see your books and find out everything they need to know about. You know if you want to you. First of all I'm going to pick up my slang for a second. Because i am a. I am personal assistant. So if you're really in trouble and you wanna give a call call six one nine five zero seven one six nine nine and i did pick it up my own phone while or When you go to my website which is called all about interventions dot com s. On the end of that interventions prevention stall about okay Www or you. Can google my name louis. Dangoor in probably take you there. Whatever whatever questions we get. We always answer sometimes. Shane does answer all this questions. And he's so much better than mitch fifty nicer that you can see him on my about page. He's better looking than most people and so talented so we shouldn't really say that about him. You know one doesn't Doesn't detract from the other. Thanks so much. Louise i really appreciate it and i hope that we get to speak again my take care. I hope we get to meet in non covered land. I look forward to that. Thank you very much. Thanks for you guys listening in to the episode today and i'd like to Invite you again to visit my website. The exploding human dot com subscribe to the youtube channel. The exploding human with bob. Nick mun and big big big hugs. And thanks to. Dr louise stagger for visiting me on the show today. Hope you guys enjoyed it. Have a wonderful day thank you.
S4 07 | The Morning After
"This is an ABC podcast if your landing here for the first time best to go back and start this story at episode decide one. It's the morning after I found my brother's ex wife Leslie in a Californian Carpark Simon Simon. I wake up in a cheap motel. Slow the bead sheets have thin and crumple like crepe paper with. We still buzzing out more of a crazy dream all day. Really we live in debriefing chat with Lesley. How are you feeling about what she it now. As in like I was kind of convinced in well. It wasn't convinced but I I definitely strong yeah. I'm not convince but I do did feel sorry for Leslie and I've I've. I felt that there was genuine sadness and maybe even a touch of remorse from his side of things but having slipped on it even just for a few hours. I think think that her room her sadness in her remorse is like I think she recognized that her life is not what she wanted it to be or even. Perhaps what I could be and she kind of looked looked at me like almost like you know she was going. Please don't make me face all of this stuff and and I I think what I was feeling is. I felt bad filling that am I just being charmed like everyone else in the story from the brief chat I had with Leslie. It's hard to tell I lifted with the plan to meet it up and go through everything in detail. If we can sit down and talk I won't have to rush through my questions. Maybe I can get her to talk about what she really meant when she said things weren't totally kosher and instead of going slowly. I can just straight up. Ask Her if she did stuff like INVINCI- fake Loria Yea Eric T. wise to fool people if she can really answer all of the stuff she'll turn up seamlessly takes suggesting that we made up at the starbucks near the supermarket. She works at and she's just sent me a text back so here it is highly and good morning. It was really good to see you too. I hope you understand all the things you asked about is all team gene plus years ago and I have moved on from all of it and so has my parents okay. Cameron story is actually from about six years ago but anyway I appreciate you want both sides but in all fairness you should have reached out way before twelve years later. I M past all the pain lies deceit eight and loneliness. My decisions have created for me and I've laid it all to raced. I really thought long and hard through the night and decided that I do not wish to bring it all back. I wish you all the best Ali and good luck with all your ventures so I guess that's it. We won't be lizzy again. For the final episode of the season of unraveled. I'm only wards and this I wasn't really in the mood for asking anymore questions but we had already planned one more. Stop on our road our trip a beautiful beachside town just down the road we leslie. It worked when we got there. Simon had a beer on the bar and told some people people why we're in town would win round and then a lady approached me. She said she had known Leslie. We were very close actually beat her okay so she had all the familiar stories about Leslie Heading told hails of successful international restaurants and a trust fund but to be honest I was over more of the same wasn't going to help me understand everything then just as we were wrapping up. She said something that really hit me was homeless at a time here grim sir. Can you just say that again well. She was homeless for a time for most of the time she was working here. I'm this last time because she slept at the campgrounds and she 'cause I helped to remove a camper to the campground and she slept in the back of her car and then she slept upped over at a hotel because I remember going over there and having pizza with her and so I knew she didn't have a place to live here. It's really sad and that's why was she sort of homeless if she had a job here and was working. I don't know she was always looking for a place is back to the hotel room. I turn turn my recorder on that doesn't make me feel good like nobody should be sad that. Lis please leave going through her life. Going from opportunities and circumstances like living Medicare in New Zealand right down to sleeping and HOOPLA. Maybe in a beautiful place but nobody deserves to be homeless and I just really hurt bit it. Something can joke Lee out of this because she's not winning out of any of US win. Samin came back. I told him what I had found out. The saddest thing was she said that when Leslie was here she was homeless. Shit that sucks just ed like just you know we're saying kind of like this. Kind of existence must be traumatic fucking looking said and just horrible just kind of like Yep. I'm not surprised when you say that like my heart sinks a little bit. I'm like I really wish that Kinda. Shit on anyone even if the gun would've done you wrong and stuff but it's did say you know what I mean. I guess I thought this whole thing was going to wrap up neatly like a movie being in America running around doing this investigation. It often feels like I'm in a movie the accents so I was kind of expecting all my questions answered and tied up in a pretty bowed insted. Did things feel complicated. I didn't expect to end up feeling sorry phillies lately but I kinda do. She has brought a lot of this on his self. It's just his situation. I kind of feel sorry for some of the people that she took years is to recover but mostly on the fate its lease leave. It seems to be in the cycle of starting over again with nothing. If it turns out Lis Lis biggest victim is self then why would she keep the cycle going. That's what still doesn't make sense to me but then I remember something that came up when I spoke to the psychologist Maria Conchita what motivates the con- on because an al Qaeda's Leslie didn't get away with a whole lot of money and that is not at all uncommon. I think it's a huge misperception among the public that con artists are motivated by money. I really think that's not at all because for the most part con artists don't make a lot of money and are incredibly intelligent eligible could've made much more money in more legitimate professions and so. I don't actually think it's about financial gain at all. I think that why they do it is power. They're motivated in the sense of power over other people control over other people's lives the idea that they're shaping other people's reality in a way that they want to shape it. This is something that can be incredibly intoxicating and I think that that feeling of power is actually one one of the reasons that con artists are more often than not and by more often the nod over ninety percent of cases true con artists are repeat offenders and given the opportunity to go straight so to speak. They don't take it. They can't take it even though they say they will. They will and they want to because they're always driven back to that and they are unable to let go of that rush of power over other people. I mean it isn't toxic getting if you think about it. You're playing God. You're controlling other people's lives. You're you're crafting their realities. You're creating entire worlds and people believe you creating entire worlds like the world of Eric t Weiss Leslie Could Control Hlavac. Maybe that's what this was about not money but a feeling of control a feeling of power and remember what Leslie seat about putting me in touch with Eric talked to them in a couple of years but I can give you the last number for him. I'd be happy you too now. Problem followed up overtakes and ovules Lifa Eric's number. She gave me one so I guess that means that her old might eric. Ty Is Squire will be lost to history fictional history that leaves one more all question. That's been on my mind all along. It might be the most troubling question of my investigation. wiggly's lease parents. Gordon Dr Kaku over doesn't know Leslie or her parents but she said something that gave me a new perspective on what it might be like to be in their position Russian oftentimes you know people like the parents aren't in on the con- as such but they've been deceived you have to remember they've been living with a con artist for their for the entire life of that con artist and it's their daughter so you have an emotional involvement and if you if you who are ah you know who didn't know. Leslie when she was younger and had no family or blood ties initially if you were able to be pulled into her our web just imagine how difficult it is if you're related to her if you have the closest relationship of all I think it could be incredibly difficult and I think that those are families are often the biggest victims of con artists and will defend their children will defend their loved ones to the end. I did try to speak with Leslie Parents and speedy and Andrew at the town. Please leave a message. This is patty or not available right at the moment. Please the record your message at the tone hi Betty. It's only wards here. You're might Romy Greg's little brother. I'm I'm sure Leslie has told you that I am reporting a story just regarding Leslie. We're trying to understand also emailed them and send them a little. The Response Leslie might have told them not to talk to me. After some friendly takes back and forth with Leslie things had turned sour she started to find out how many people we had spoken to for this podcast and in particular in that last time we went to Leslie heard that we had mentioned some of the allegations Gatien's about her to some people that are old work and she was not happy about it. Okay takes message has just come in from after not hearing for from here for a little while she says lose my number. A journalist doesn't slander a person's character at the old workplace. This is not a story for your podcast. This is revenge trip so fact only after all these years you reach out to me or my parents ever and I will file a restraining order against you Simon and whoever else I need to restraining orders on us and everything they of course heavy. Oh Man Jape is what Leslie didn't now was that revenge couldn't have been further from our minds when I sit out on this trip. I wanted to understand what happened and to get legally sought of the a story it was important to get her response to people all over the world sang she had called them but at the end of our trip of realized Leslie isn't some sort of two-dimensional movie villain. She's a complex person with motives. Maybe she doesn't even fully understand and maybe the person who has suffered the most from what Leslie has done is Leslie herself Sir Sir. I don't feel Vincenzo. I just feel sad sad. Feliz Louis Sad for everyone you want who felt deceived and devastated by and sad for my brother Greek I. I don't know if Greg would react like I did so I told him that. Leslie might have been homeless. It's hard to feel sorry for someone when they clearly have choices and the thing with Leslie is she's had lots and lots and lots of choices so her being homeless supposedly that's bad but that will be a consequence of who actions which will have affected lots of other people around around here who let's call them the victims so is it drops them my sympathy down quite a few notches around that time when Leslie might have been homeless. Greg got himself back on his fate so we're I did get to was a lucky lucky place. We have a beautiful highly supportive intelligent wife and we have a pretty magical you young daughter and then we live in a beautiful suburb of got a good job that provides for us and I and all of the good things are ahead of us in life as for my mom and dad they were mostly able to move on to in a case that happened after Leslie Lifting Zealand. Mom and dad sued the lawyer who worked on the dragonfly deal the Meta was singled before it went to court. I can't say much about about for legal reasons but it worked out that mom and dad were able to get enough money to buy home of their own again. Dead had to go back to work but after a few he is a tough times my parents got back to being happy with a are even reflect on some good that came out of everything and now we honestly have moved on and not really think about that time much all it was very preps. Almost you could say another defining moment for our family. I think in many ways it brought us all together. Uh Not that we were repaired but it's spotted spotted us in pretty well actually for me. It's IT'S A great j. It's nothing to do with here. It's how loved and keyed food ooh that we add that so many people kid for us for the immediate family they was so amazingly brilliant and three four sticking with it and holding us. Zap and at least we got something to talk about. It didn't patties. They not entirely free of us not that we talk about a nail it pat. He's retained hey pat. He's not too old and like he always does. My brother are the Simon sums it up for us. I'm actually really proud of us. Through a like a big thing of this was just how you know and I always I always repeat ah kind of the reason that I don't feel anger or forgiven her just because of how close it might us you know we we join us as a family through this and so yeah so just yeah. I'm just a love. Let's go out of the year for almost two years now. I haven't been able to talk to my family without being about this podcast. I'm looking forward to going back to talking about the usual stuff like how to turn the video on all he wants to connect with you on skype except well well. We've got contact yeah. Sorry you may me see me. I can see you andy. You and I need to call Greg. I don't catch up with my brother neely enough. This whole thing has been in a good reason for us to talk for me to understand something so profound in his life but it's been hard sometimes to draw a line between my brother and the story. I'm trying to tell one time greg cold me and he started to cry. He was telling me about how he still feels. Pain signed from what happened. Part of my brain was thinking I need to recall this Colin Beck with the recorder on but the rest of me was thinking my brother other is upset right now and I need to be there for them. You didn't hear that call because I stayed on the line with him to Greg. I'm not a journalist reporting putting his story. I'm Hasbro not the story started with him and it needs to end with him. I asked Greg to think about what he's taken away from this whole experience the important things of the things that are pretty close to you like family and friends and what can fulfil you and make you happy a lot of those things are actually right in front of most people right now things like being out with a wake up on weekends and book your daughter down to the local school so she can play on the playground. You don't need to have a Ferrari to trauma. There didn't need to be a life in the fast lane. the good life harmfully walk most people can get and then as living on regular street knowing regular things and working out for them I think that's what it comes down to and these beauty simplicity. It's hard to replace with money in positions the ultimately dart really satisfy on. I think what really matters was always here. It was actually right in front of me ooh. I really hope you've enjoyed coming along. I'm for this ride you can find a bunch of extras including a feature article and the video of my confrontation with Leslie at the ABC's unraveled true crime prime website you can hit me on instagram at Hollywood's and if you share the story please use the Hashtag unraveled true crime roll the credits music snowball is hosted and produced by me awards big love to my brother Greg and my entire family for letting me tell the story and thank you sorry much to the awesome team. I got to work with including an rebels supervising producer. Tim rops Brek doc audio producer Lancaster fact checking and additional audio production from Shane Anderson Sound designers John Jacobs and Tim Jenkins the biggest events to fly facilities for our theme Song Additional Music Bryce Halladay and on rebel is a product of ABC audio studios lead by Kelly ridden and unravels executive producer is in war uh-huh ABC podcast. Ask discuss more podcasts live radio APP exclusive on the map mm-hmm. You never really now what was real or not.
01 | Sweet Spot
"This is an ABC PODCAST. Just wanting before we start this. Podcast contains some strong language November. The Eleventh Nineteen seventy five was one of the most momentus dies in Australian political history. But it didn't start out that way. It was just another day. A Cadet journalist was answering finds the Parliament House Bureau. I was sitting in the office in my little corner. Meanwhile a comedian known as political satire. Was Eating lunch in Sydney Chinese restaurant. Not An age on is the best. Pekinese restaurant in Sydney at the time and a teenager was making an after school snack. I remember just taken the toast out of the grill and I was sort of fixing it up with enough. What they didn't know was that the day was about to take a dramatic turn soon. They would all converge on the steps of Parliament House in Canberra. Because there were about to hear some Big News Camber Lena of events unprecedented in Australian political history designed rang and I answered. It was on the phone and just came racing the room. I've got a phone call and I had to go up to the desk to take it. And she said Goff's being sacked Gough Whitlam has just been sacked. You really need to get downstairs onto the steps. You've got about ten minutes prime minister today sacked and I think I probably had had that explained to me what that meant basically. We all said what I always. I guess Hannett a democratically elected government this guy covenant. General fires it. I mean it was an unprecedented. I grab my notebook and went running down and she said we're all going in Harlem in house to demonstrate. Get in the car on plane to camera picked up the crew and went off to Parliament House quite quickly There were few people starting together. It was just so confusing. Unbelievable we ran to the front of Parliament House before she got to the steps of parliament. Hell's that school students Susan Manage. You read into her dad. He was bodies lower lip when he came and I thought oh well he's really stressed Susan's dead was stressed because he'd actually been court right in the center of the dramatic events that day. He was the head of the Prime Minister's Department the Public Servant Closest to the center of political power. His name was John Manager. Then he's actually central to our story a few hours earlier. He'd been told that his boss Gough Whitlam had been sacked. I thought I'd been working for Gopher now. It was clear to me that I wasn't. I was Whitney Infect Malcolm Fraser and todd in quite what do as he rushed around trying to understand what was happening. He ran into his kids and his wife Cynthia near the front of Parliament Hills and I said well you going and Cynthia said we're GONNA have it up against that bastard fraser as a phrase tune blockbuster God never had a us in my life. They know since more than forty years later. The emotion of that moment is still raw. But it suddenly dawned on me. Slow Becca water being thrown over my head that something quite dramatic and having finally the gravity water helping the immorality deception that I witnessed. Now's coming to me strawberry thing. The life of which probably hasn't been seen too many times and there are literally hundreds of members of the general public who formed into King's full and spilling out onto the steps of the polymers. News of what happened YouGov around by now. They were hundreds on the steps and they were chanting. And then you just T- this big bullshit noise as the big front doors. I and and I just turned around and the Whitman. Ladies and gentlemen well my we say God save the Queen. Nothing will save the governor. Jim could not allow because it was not allow efficiently. Clear from Vic of the deadlock. Being resolved is one of the most extraordinary times ever seen in the national capital. But these news conferences by Mr Fraser dismissal by John this is probably the most iconic moment in Australian political history. The second of Gough Whitlam on the eleventh of November nineteen seventy-five grainy black and white footage of that moment when he spoke to the crowd on the steps of Old Parliament House. It's edged into my brain and I wasn't even born when it happened. But what's missing for me is what's outside the frame of that show. The unseen players the scandals the plots the abuses of power. I went looking for those missing pieces and now I want to tell you what I failed. Because the incredible part of Whitlam's dismissal isn't what happened on the steps. It's the story of what led up to that moment and there are parts of that story that no one has heard before the ordinary printer in the streets. Had No idea what was going on working. You more dramatic fantastic unfathomable incomprehensible and catastrophic story than they would you in interest of his straight speak to me. He looked at me and said `I our history nothing. This story of government that came to radically transform Israeli A- and in doing so came completely undone if the government wasn't gonNA play by the rules we're going to stop the down despite a political drama and romance novel. How could these people be trusted anymore? I think they're enormous secrets. Interceptions at the time at the dismissal as one American official referred to it a bit of spooky. Fiddling can you believe this shit? I'm Alex Man and over the next seven episodes I'll take you inside the highest circles of power and speak with those. Who were there to uncover the hidden story behind? What happened on the live to truly understand the dismissal? You need to understand the story of the transformation is Julia went through to get there. You need to go back to a time before with them. Lost his job before the gloss came off his government and before he was even elected. This story starts with a guy called Peter. O'brien because his story is the story of an Australian political awakening. And it starts when paid-up was just a kid. I always wanted to be a policeman because the policeman. I doubt within the suburb. I was brought up in which is sad. Melvin Victoria we had a police force down there which was very community oriented growing up payroll. Brian looked up to his local cops. Dice If you were using a Shanghai straighten busting a few straight Lloyd's the general result was behind the from the legal cover took you. Heidi a father. Who gave you another clip of the year and the matter was settled in that way but there was always that feeling that that man was data particular. When Peter Eventually left school he signed up at the police academy to become a COP HIMSELF. His belief in enforcing the law only got stronger. The only alternative to law and its enforcement is Anneke and inanity the wick gme only-the-strong-survive so therefore it became a moral crusade as well as I personal. One in many ways paid. His outlook was pretty typical of distractions. He'd grown up in a conservative time. When things seemed simple and easy to identify who the bad guys were but for Peta and the rest of the country things were about to get a whole lot more complicated. Would you feel about going out on patrol? This song experienced traders commitment of two thousand more men to Vietnam as announced in parliament today by the prime minister. Helen Vietnam two weeks to many people in the sixties the ultimate bad guys with the Communists and the concern was that if South East Asia went communist the Australian continent would soon be threatened so initially there was widespread support for the nation's commitment to the Vietnam War but as Australia's war if it ramped up confronting images from the front lines dotted naming straight into people's Lounge. Rooms you don't feel a bit scared Be You know. How do you feel about the fact that the European Vietnam now lot prefer to be at home bullishness back then? National Service was decided by a brutal and devastatingly random ballot for that young culpa. Peter O'Brien and for the rest of the country it would soon become a catalyst for radical. Social Change was lighter in sixty eight that I attended the first ballot. The Bull Drawing at one twenty five Swanson Street in Melbourne the headquarters of the Department of Labor National Service. Peter I Brian was there as an undercover cop. To monitor the ballot. He watched as dozens of small marbles rattled around in the barrel each one carrying a small number and the destiny of young men all around the style number models representing all of the dykes aptly named covered by this job. With big placed in the barrel and official would reach into the barrel and pluck out a mobile men rate out number two three into and if the numbers matched the day you were born seventeen February you were going to war and if you said you went to prison instead. This process of randomly forcing young men off to war was becoming pretty controversial. That's why Peter O'Brien was the the ballot. Draw that day to make sure that the ballot went smoothly so when a group of protesters rocked up. Paid up wasn't happy. I was horrified to see these people. This group of people not allowed Ghraib they would have been only forty or fifteen ball in. There was still a general acceptance in the community of Australia's involvement in Vietnam and this demonstration. I looked at it and I thought who are these bunch affiliates or Roy they got to question the supremacy of all of these people insurgents. Perhaps I pay by the Communist Party to up actions against the government only sports crush him on that I paid. It couldn't understand why people were protesting against the war but so he would make an arrest. That would leave him questioning everything. The man he arrested was a young high school teacher whose birthday had come up in. The ballot was a teacher. Simple straightforward only. Teach you that you would find probably majority about high school. The teacher had refused to go to war. It was a draft. We went into the high school and we arrested him in front of the students. Brian had to cuff him and take him to one of the most notorious prisons in Australia by bathing in and out of the place many many times I felt nothing prisoners into prisoners at felt nothing but in this diet. I felt that I was taking an innocent main prison. It was almost a look of despair on his face. App signed himself. Why have I done this to myself? But I'd like him tonight that I felt that display to the it was that point that I say to myself my God. What have I done but Padar? Brian was still a cop. He had responsibilities and he still had this strong sense of Judy. They decided to squash those feelings and get on with his job. You rationalize you say to yourself. The Lord Supreme so therefore they must be wrong. I must be right. The voices arguing against those laws. Were Getting Louder Than Peter I. Brian was finding it harder to ignore them. There was one guy especially that he just kept hearing about the most prominent of the Antiwar Movement a Labor MP. Jim I have always said if I were twenty years old and replied to go into the army under conscription in relation to a warlike Vietnam I would not go I have also said this is a very significant decision for any young man to take and I leave it to him to it but I say quite clearly. If I were facing that situation I would not go. I WOULD NOT BE IN JIM CANS. Was someone who brought people with him. Someone changed the way that people thought about the war on told because to me he seems like a cross between a worldly oratory with grand convictions and an awkward librarian bosses in Vietnam. Today they operate efficiently as a unit impact can achieve very little in the situation in which hands was a radical with ambition and incredible political influence. He was the leader of lives left wing and would like to rise to become Whitlam's deputy but during the Vietnam War his party. The Labor Party was stealing. Opposition and cans was busy organizing. These huge protest matches on a Friday afternoon in. May One thousand nine hundred. Seventy about seven thousand people marched through the streets of Melbourne to protest against Australia's role in the Vietnam War. Jim Cans was yeah. We have made it clear that we propose to have limited Sit Down for a limited time and victory. This is a symbol of the stopping of the war but PEDROIA. Brian was there too and it was his job to go on the cover and follow Jim cans. I was on tool intents and purposes an intelligence operation I was in countries that was just sitting dress t shirt and a pair of jeans. Rana's matt sort of thing. We were all the time in watching doc AIDS. We carried out continuing ongoing surveillance and we were they to try and identify the whereabouts. All key draft resisters to see if they would turn up anything turned up to track them to where I went. But after a couple of years of looking up draft resisters and following activists the certainties of his childhood. The clear line between Laura abiding citizens in troublemakers crumbled when Jim can started addressing the crowd. O'brien found himself hanging on every word the congregation of the horses to and listen to canes talk about this and I couldn't help but believe what he was saying that there was a Marley aptitude to this whole affair. He we had our strike in people involved in a war. A bloody war that APP people with dying and that I was part of sending those young people to Vietnam that I was part of the system that saint them they paid a had gone from covertly monitoring a supposedly dangerous radical to being entitled agreement with him. I don't care what they say about. Jim cades this main was a decent man. A man driven by conscience of ripeness. And what he said that demonstration in burke straight that die was right a straight should not have saved a young people to that war A yes this instance wasn't just payday. Who is changing his mind on the back of the Anti War Movement Jim Cairns and the Labour Party's quest for government was gaining momentum. This funky Jim was the theme for their election. Campaign in nineteen seventy two. If you listen closely you can always hear the flares and big hairdos captured. A feeling that after twenty three years of conservative rule Australia was ready for a change. The leader of the Labor Party was Gulf Whitland. He was a headstrong and persuasive politician. We will abolish conscription. Forthwith because it's intolerable that a free nation at peace and not under threat should cow by lottery. The best of its use to provide defense on the Whitlam was a crash crash through politician with a fully formed alternative vision for Australia honed. Over twenty years in opposition. He was told to six foot. Four and had what some people called a towering and beautiful arrogance. All of us is a strike. Have to insist that we can do so much better as an ice and we'll you believe with me that a new government and you program a new team is desperately needed to provide giant this time when homosexuality was illegal across the country and God save. The Queen was the national anthem. According to Whitlam Australia had been rocked to sleep by decades of conservative government. And it was up to him and the Labour party to wake it up. I need your help. I need the help of the Australian people and give them that. I do not for a moment believe that we should sit. Lima on what we can achieve together for our country for our people for our future by the ton election day arrived. The momentum felt unstoppable. How radical the change would be on the Whitland? Australia seemed up for it. In federal tally room with the federal election. Nineteen seventy two I. Voting returns are just coming in and in a few hours. It's these boys will tell the story of whether the liberal country coalition remains in power of the next three years or whether the Australian Labor Party Gains Office for the first time since nineteen forty-nine by the end of the night it was clear for the first time in more than generations the Labor Party had won the degree of excited with the with medicine. Nail going out into the gun. The join the hundreds of support her clamoring to congratulate him. Women are now kissing men shaking his hand. He's getting a tremendous reception potty. Golf head this air of promise about him. He was the future. I mean America Ted Kennedy and WE HOOK. He was somebody who was on the wavelength of an aspiring generation And people who were fed up with twenty three years of liberal government Labor was now in government and now hiring. Petty warn was twenty eight years old and sold on Wetlands Vision couple of days after the election. I go to find cool from Whitlam's Principal Private Secretary. Who asked if I would be interested in working for the Whitlam Government Petty said Yes and was soon working in the office of one of Whitlam's ministers in rattled with the sounds and smells of nineteen seventies Australia in old parliament house. There were no photocopiers now. In mobile phones there would manual typewriters. Because the electric's hadn't come in and there was an air of Atta bushfire smoke around the entire building because everybody except me. It seemed smoked. Whitlam had this small Blue Book called the program. Then it was at least progressive social reforms that he was determined to enact things like free health care and free tertiary education. Whitlam had a sense of how important it was to get on with the job. There was a sense of enormous energy from the top in the dice straight after the election. Votes was still coming in in some states. Where undecided but Whitlam wanted to get started so instead of waiting for the final election results to Ministers Whitlam just divvied up all twenty-seven portfolios between him and his deputy a guy called Lance Bonnard thirteen ministries to golf and fourteen to Lance. And just like that. The two of them started changing the country. He and golf links golf with the government with the ministry. Were the cabinet of the day for several days. The government of to basically. That's you've probably will never see slack. Again they formally recognize China removed. The sales tax on the contraceptive pill took steps towards equal. Pay For women passed measures relating to aboriginal land. Rights withdrew more troops from Vietnam abolished conscription and patterned anyone. Who'd been locked up for the draft so remember that Young Teacher? Who'd been thrown in prison? Now he was free he'd spent eight months inside and the cop who put him there. Peter O'Brien felt a wave of relief at last we can get on with the business of investigating crime and win. Whitlam kind of path. We all suddenly felt this release of tension. Ivy's this docilely period a lot of thought we would be redeemed so at this point. Whitlam's been elected the Vietnam War. Seems like it's nearly Iva in the last of the Australian troops coming home. The radical thinking of the antiwar movement had moved into Parliament House. Die Out the new milestone progressive reforms are being announced. I can almost imagine Whitlam and his team saying say. This is how you do it. This is how easy it is to make Stralia of better place now. Just hold that feeling for moment because this right now is the sweet spot and for the government. It's as good as it gets looking back on. Wetlands time in government what strikes me most is the even by today's standards so much of it was spent mired in scandal. That sweet spot. It lasted less than three weeks the first problem with the US military attack that caught everyone by surprise. It's now simply called the Christmas bombings and it set Whitland on a collision course with the US president that would eventually threaten to undermine the entire alliance what you're listening to right now is a recording from inside the cockpit of a B. Fifty two bomber. It's flying over Southeast Asia and it's fully loaded the voices you can hear the US Air Force crewmen running through a few final checks as they fly towards the coast of Vietnam through the cockpit. The equerry concede dozens more beef fifty two flying in this epic formation across the sky there in constant radio contact center. The emission is bomb targets in the North Vietnamese cities of Hanoi and Haiphong. This recording was made the day after Christmas as the crew of this bay fifty to arrive over their targets. They start raining bombs on Hanoi on button. Ready now Lebed's hotline and bring right they're gonNA get villages and houses destroyed and hundreds of civilians died across the ten days of bombing. One Errand string of bombs landed on a hospital killing dozens of doctors nurses the human costs of US air attacks on North Vietnam massive. It's Thursday morning quarter of aid. We're going off to see numb ten street. I'm ten district where the bombing was extremely heavy. That last couple nights woman is crying. My son The Christmas bombings came at a time when the US was negotiating the final stages of a peace deal with North Vietnamese but in recent days those talks had broken down and the bombing was supposed to intimidate the north Vietnamese latest back to the negotiating table Nixon had said let's really hit these people. Let's really hit them. And Henry Kissinger said Mr President. We will drop more bombs on Hanoi and Hai Fallen. The allies dropped on Europe during the whole of world. War Two. So that gives you an extent of the concert bombing that took place beckoning Stralia Williams. New Ministers had been sworn in on the very day. The bombing started now a horrified. The man who knows more about what happened next than almost anyone else is historian. James Curran just picture. This here is the first labour ministry being sworn in at House in camera two positions that I had been many of them had been thinking of an ongoing off since nineteen forty nine they had been opposed to the Vietnam War. Wrought from the middle of the non sixties they had opposed every American escalation and every American bombing campaign and the first major international development. The major announcement is the United States is embarked on this carpet bombing with the B fifty. Two's they went for the jugular and I didn't hold back good morning. This is Ian Findley with. Am many of this morning's newspapers carry the headlines. The Dr Jim Cans will not stay silent on the issue of the Vietnam War and American bombing. Despite the fact that Prime Minister Whitlam said at his press conference on Tuesday that he himself as foreign minister would be the only spokesman on the issues. Jim Cans talked about the White House. Being run by Maniac said it was the most brutal and indiscriminate slaughter of men women and children in Living Memory said. These ministers are off the leash. They are off the leash if ever they were on the leash but it wasn't just jim cans and the other members of whitland newly minted ministry making their feelings heard. Gough Whitlam was furious to gotten has a mandate to do all it can to stop the continuation of this war and I hope this is quite clear to everyone in Australia and abroad. It's our duty to do it. Whitlam took a different approach to his ministers instead of accusing the US president of war crimes. He Right Nixon letter. You read this letter. And it's expressed in very moderate diplomatic language but the sting comes in the tile. The letter ended with a joint appeal to both President Nixon and to the North Vietnamese to return to the negotiating table and find a peaceful solution to the war. But if that sounds sensible fifty right now that is not how the US took it. The essence of it is that the Australian government was putting the United States on the same level as its communist enemy and Henry Kissinger was pissed off Kissinger blows gasket. The US had grown used to Tralee being compliant of agent in predictable ally. Now that Whitlam was in those days were over at the White House. The shock was palpable. Kissinger grabbed the phone and found the first trillion diplomat. He could get his hands on. He called the Australian Embassy in Washington. Well Kissinger on Lords and the transcript of this telephone. Conversation is quite brutal to read and kisses to him. I want on the legitimize something but I want to happen. Tactfully side you that this should not be recorded. Even though of course Kissinger's secretaries are on the other line running down every word of it he says. I want to convey to you the depth of feeling in the White House about receiving this kind of letter the fact that you have put us on the same level as our enemy. I can tell you now. This is not a great way to start a relationship with us. You're a new government and camera and this is the way you starting off and then comes the threat. He says if this let it becomes public then there are gonna be great consequences for this relationship. Kissinger hung up the phone. But that dressing down was not the end of the. Us response. Kissinger needed to work out. What to do about it beyond US early. Fine Coal so light up. He picks up the phone again. This time to discuss the issue with President Nixon so non days after that litter had been received by the White House Nixon and Kissinger around lunchtime. Have a telephone exchange her. This is the actual audio of that this recording one of many made of Nixon's conversations and they would like to be used to destroy his presidency in the Watergate scandal. But this phone call is not about Watergate. This phone call is about Whitlam and the scratchy Type Captures the fury of a superpower school and President Nixon Kissinger that Whitlam is one of the Pace Knicks. And that he's taking a straw down a very very dangerous path. Keesa is outraged to and makes us suggestion to Nixon to freeze out Whitlam. For few months you'll get the message after roll says Kissinger by need us a hell of a lot more than we need them over. And this is we Nixon decides to punish the Australians There's to be no contact between the Australian ambassador in Washington. The State Department anything to do with Australia and cable going from Washington to its embassy in Canberra must go through Kissinger. I he even says. Well let's. We're not going to send Christmas cards to Australia. Strategies got the call diplomatic shoulder in the deep brace If that was supposed to intimidate Whitlam and his ministers into submission it didn't work. They had a new vision. I Riley A- and little interest in blindly following old allies traditions in the next episode of the Eleventh. The government picks a fight with its own intelligence service out COP Peter. O'brien finds himself at the center of the action yet again. This was one. Hell of a shock says Strategic Intelligence Organization. You we're going to zero appeal. Four disgusted domestic intrusion a deep resentment towards the government evolved. From what the coin? We voted for this fucking. The eleventh is hosted by me. Aleks man supervising producer. Is Tim. Roxborough forty eight produces Nina. Coppola Shane Anderson. Ellen leader. Now wonderful researches a Steph. Call it and Jane Curtis San Designer. Is Tim Jenkins with additional? Sound design and composition by Mountain Peralta. Thanks to Justin Kelly any in Walker. Who were there in the very beginning and very end our executive producer is Nikki. Tugwell the eleventh is a product of ABC audio studios led by Kelly. Ridden Over you'd be listening to an ABC podcast if you haven't appetite for present day politics and want to understand more about the trump era. Try Russia if you're listening in two thousand sixteen. It was this Russia if you're listening. I hope you're able to find the thirty thousand emails that are missing asking for Russian help in his twenty sixteen election. This time. It's totally different. He's asking for Ukrainian help in his twenty twenty election. They hid investigate. The by the story starts with a phone call with President Vladimir Sorry President Vladimir Alinsky of Ukraine. That call was perfect. It couldn't have been nicer. And even the Ukrainian government put out a statement that that was a perfect. All there was no pressure put on them whatsoever. The boy with the president of Ukraine want to help out Donald Trump. Well you'll make use it but it's because of the Russian confused you won't be after listening to Matt. Bevin explain everything over three seasons of this excellent Shar Russia if you're listening is available for free on the ABC. Listen up or on. Podcast apps like apple and Google.
S4 01 | The Girl With The Dragonfly Tattoo
"This is an ABC podcast. This series contains occasional course language. I was the emcee at my brother's waiting digital. The usual stuff housekeeping toasts tried to crack a few jokes but inside. I had a nagging sense of unease about my brothers charismatic Californian bride. It was a feeling that that some things just didn't add up. I didn't tell anyone how I felt probably couldn't have explained it anyway. My brother brother was happy. That's what matters right but maybe I should have paid more attention to that feeling because within a few months she had taken off to the the US wasn't just my brother's marriage that fell pod my whole family went down with it and none of us ever saw her again so this woman like not washy Clayton's to be she hit stock for vivacious Asifa skin look to when you marry someone you feel and that was allure. You just followed her manipulative standby. We call her. The black widow scornful snorkeled as we my mom and dad found out that they had lost everything it was during the Sunday lunchtime rush in a country New Zealand cafe. Fa they ended up running that cafe and that day dead was serving behind the counter taking orders passing them back to the Sheafs at the bank next order it all onto vinnie noticed. The guy joined the line. It wasn't a random customer. Dead recognized him and win. This guy got to the front of the queue he ordered and he said to me all have sown science and of come today to tell you that we are going to looked with. IQ I almost fainted went blank or could fail the draining of blood from my face a must've been as white as a sheet. My mom realized something was up. I'm busy bringing in dishes in doing whatever and then I looked at dad he'd stick to one surge and he came to me and he looked absolutely dreadful. Utterly drained and I just carried on. We didn't have time to reflect on things to a later in the day in what they meant what it all meant was mom and dad lost their life savings more than a million dollars. It's and a few days later. They found out they were homeless. A court by LAV presented us with a paper saying L. House was to be Fulford to the bank and a seat to the guy. I'm going to sign that and he said it's going to happen. You don't need to sign anything need to throw it on the desk and walked up my parents in the sixties. He's went from living in a leafy Auckland suburb to squatting in the basement at my Auntie's house as my family tried to understand what had happened. They realized they might have been the victims of an elaborate con job. I was living overseas through most of this recently. I started learning about what happened and and I kind of felt guilty. I wasn't there when the wolves fell down around everyone so now. I want to help figure things out. I normally work behind the scenes at an Australian radio station triple j helping other people tell stories but I knew I needed to investigate the story of my own. It was like the plot of a movie one. You'd never expect to feature a pretty average Kiwi family. Things got weird and some of it's kind of funny. There's there's also a lot of randomness. The with the story smuggled out of mini well explain. Oh My fucking God. He's I mean can I talk about. Drugs did not our noble friendship. We're like little ducklings. I'm falling behind her lots of little intrigues thirty thousand dollars. I don't know where this money went. They kind of knew that there was some some some fucker. Wait jobs that they were. Hyatt exits through senility bubbly a she was rather lovely. He broke every including the strangest. Things get the more questions I have about what happened. Like why did this. American American woman con my family. How did she just get away and who really is Liz. Lee Manoukian in this season of unraveled. I'm GonNa find some ounces and to do it. I'm going to have to travel across the world to track Leslie Down I'm only boards and this is snowballed. Take a uh-huh so this recording is a is there an option to it is afterwards SORTA taste. Surely these no bid a subject than yourself so it's it's one or two sentences to describe how I am. Yeah I M A K we Mayo Light Thirties probably probably quite typical trying to pay the mortgage and all the bills and look after his Yvonne be so I can't on the process I guess my brother Greg is typical in lots of ways. He'd be happy with the team. Dole a hiccup short-back-and-sides but he definitely has his quirks like he'll read a street map of a foreign city before bad luck. It's a novel the other thing to know about grigg that partly got us into all of this is that he loves everything to do with America is a tune for the people interested in Europe. Which is your filed? I think was an American file so like one night recently. I was brushing my teeth. You've got a surprise show Intel Greg. You've just come out and shown something. What are you got here to to use and I'm told the quite rare and lucky for the I think it's the North Koreans. That's me now. US whole thing starts when Greg went off on his Oei Beck in two thousand and six in New Zealand. You're only or overseas. Experience is kind of like a gap year off the school or Uni. It's way Kiwis live abroad. Drink foreign beer and have people laugh at us for the different words. We have for stuff like Chilean. That's an Isky if you're in Australia or I cool box pretty much anywhere else chill even anyway as a key we it was easier for Greg to work in the UK then in the US so he put his American dreams on hold and sit himself up in London one night he was at a House party wearing his favourite American football style jacket that makes them look like a high school jock so he's wandering through the potty he sticks outside to a courtyard in his ears. Perko North American accents since used to catch. My attention in the corner of the courtyard is a woman with long dark here smoking a cigarette. She's leading a conversation with the confidence. It's just losing out of her. Will it's throw in the Kim. Kardashian look alike sophisticated female operative ready to May as well fed sophistication might have been to do with her being fair older than Greg Leslie was late thirties. Greg was mid twenties griggs not a smoker but he thought he had smart he wanted to talk and so we met Lesley as they headed in the dimly lit courtyard courtyard greg started to see the world literally was more likes the concept of America's. You know it's the biggest economy continental will they do actually matters to most people on the planet of never heard of another guy describing being attracted to a girl because of the size sir economy but that's my brother. You know if you're interested in politics. They are reciprocal but a late two ago. You made it a house patty. Though isn't it well. I guess that's how naive I was greg was also taken in by Lis Lis wild story about why she was in London so it originally was to escape from Hawaii because some bad people in Hawaii were trying to attack you you know 'cause that fraud here and we're trying to do bad stuff too and his mom and dad sent her to Europe to escape them. Legally would tell everyone some version of the story. I actually heard it myself. It went like this before she was in London and Leslie owned. The coolest Bar Restaurant and nightclub on the island of Maui and Hawaii the by was called the breakwater. Things are going well until one day. Liz Lee called the he'd security guard dealing drugs out of the back entrance when she confronted him. He told her he planned to keep selling drugs. She shouldn't try to stop them from their things deteriorated with the locals like the `electricity got cut off at the restaurant through cousin. Catala company lease it at all culminated one night when she was at harm hearing people breaking in she hid under the bed from there she saw the head of security with some other guys come in carrying sugarcane knives while they looked for her. They were talking about burying her in the fields. What's she was lucky though they didn't look under the bed as soon as they lift Liz Lee went to the airport her dad charter charter a plane and she escaped to Europe so according to Leslie that's how she ended up laying low in London and all of this was fascinating to greg he started introducing using Leslie to his mates. Their relationship seemed a normal and also relationship aside from the fact that it got very intense very quickly but you would expect Ed Greg. He's not a game player and he wears his hat on sleaze. If he's into you you'd find out pretty quickly. My initial thought was that she was very open and friendly. Hey maybe but too friendly but what do you mean by that. She just gave a lot like she just uh-huh was pretty quick to chat and want to hang out and make plans and I remember thinking. It was quite full-on that she was so so quickly. Maybe that's it in London. Leslie managed a couple of bars she. She's very vicious. Bubbly doubly kind of effervescent personality bubbly California and like manner you know she was kind of quite engaging very chatty. You Know She New York. People fill owned one of the Bosley worked on my brother coming in all the time like November Greg I remember Leslie bringing you into the bar introducing me to hell of a nice guy typical sort of Kiwi in London Wigan hard and then he come into the bulge in the in the evenings to to wind down a bit and he had a probably described sitting biodiversity vacuum at the time. I remember thinking you know you're Leslie. He was just sorta very confident kind of thing and there was greg. It was quieter and kind of you know so you could see the dynamic there. Liz Lee Would Hook Greg and his mates. What's up with drinks? Now we suddenly we're invited to power and his a buckets of beer being twelve. VIP table in the corner corner in the city of London with business people around and it was like backpacker and I mean one of the world's financial capitals kidding arraigned on me so you felt like a bit of a Rockstar something to Eddie's Griggs friend. Andy did wonder where it was coming from and you sit out. It's all going on the tabs of different local law firms so you know that will come to settle off and they'd be a few extra clashes and and bottles of wine just one of her crafty ways of showing Lorenzo Thomas but things are getting pretty serious between Greg and Leslie and as the saying goes first comes love then comes may wanting to make a new bay. I flew to London to meet my brothers American dream go. My first impression was that leslie new stuff she had been everywhere and done everything. I started saying all the time. Lee knows and she loved that. We drugged getting t shirts made. I was only partly being sarcastic. Leslie told me about how she was from Orange County California. She said that she was a trust. Fund taught kid so her friends and she said that dad was rich from selling tanks to the US army so it was all pretty impressive but I have to admit I was nervous that he ended up together. Somehow Leslie seemed to have power of Greg like he wasn't himself. I I wondered if it was because she was so much older than him but I didn't really dwell on that stuff though because I remember seeing how much Greg love to his arm was constantly roundly soundly so I was happy for him. After only a few months they moved in together. Things were going quickly but they were about to go into hyper drive the winter after they first met. Greg proposed to Leslie it was snowing on Christmas Day and they were at Disneyland in Paris. She honestly was buying everything like Donald. Duck catering's shits. Let's see what he hits. We had a really nice. Donna and I think that movie joining was in parts of the Caribbean so so they've got a really cool restaurant beautiful food but so you get a ring benning a hole in your pocket honestly. I don't even remember entering arden. I don't think that that you remember the Johnny Depp Parts Care being risk throughout look all eat. The whole thing is the the entire time in Europe of on the cloud on anyway and depending crate year. It was romantic snowing everything was Co.. I thought this is the right thing to do. How did she react. I think a little no but surprised but also CD's pretty quick about say we're in love and just after he proposed Greg followed fiance back harm to the superpower he had always is wanted to visit yeah first time in the United States expected New York to be paved gold instead. It was dirty those my fist impersonation was this justice is rough as cuts then it was to the West Coast to stay in Lesley's childhood home in Orange County California Liz. Leroy said that she was from a rich background around so you might imagine her house to be like a mention of Laguna Beach. It's as Middle Income America is you could possibly want lease. Lee was woman social but it turned out that in mom and dad with the kind of parents that will make you feel like you have to be on behavior her mom I'm busy with almost permanently pursed lips and who did Andrew had a squint through glasses that was somehow at the same time suspicious and disinterested. I was put in a room next to her parents and she was put in her old room that she grew up in being in the same same place the same TV VHS cassettes underneath a TV remote legally was nearly forty years old at this point but but it was a separate bedroom situation at this house there was a camera above the front do black AC- camera and author author Okay Asta. You know why you guys go. Security armed with the answer was the Hawaiians something about that didn't add up for Greg but he was on his base behavior unladed car. He had bigger things on his mind. He was about to get married to make immigration and paperwork stuff easier as well as to avoid any discomfort with lis leads conservative parents they arranged to get hitched quickly at a courthouse in Santa Ana bidding Andruzzi heavy for them. Beatty put on a nice dress. Andrew you put on a jacket and he drove them to the courthouse in his Cadillac. The ceremony was break. The Registry Office was no-frills. Just a vase of flowers in the corner was happy but he was feeling far away from home and also greg thought making things official would change the sleeping arrangements but it didn't get separate situation. quite keen to not have this situation bars so you were married now will. That's sort of thought hey what else do. I need to hear man of of done the deed but want to do the deed appearance. Were very very conservative. It doesn't matter too much though because they weren't planning on Stein as much as Greg was intrigued by America he thought it'd be easy to CDL at harmony and did with that. We're going to have a proper waiting but when it came time to leave California California. It seemed like Andrew didn't really want their daughter to go. They took out the airport. LAX and they they they they cried shit loads when we left but it was moving to New Zealand for a new life. What was their thoughts on that look might I don't remember a any optimism of please leave New Zealand. I honestly distinctly remember them being really said leaving America Regan Yep now whether that's not so loved one leaving to another land or another reason fucking nuys like what do you mean by that. What would another reason be like knowing that she's going to get in trouble again some Russ you should they can't keep it on. It's late at night as Greg and I talk on the couch. We've never talked about all this stuff of kind of just wanted to help them forget but now that we're talking the more we get into what happened with Leslie the more tangled up we get. I remember that the story was dead worked in the amendments industry and with her that she's a trust fund baby and there's all this money and her family family and shoes from the sort of rich background and everything so so that again will none of that is true list. The pop in her dead told me that he he built water tanks. US Army not not armaments whose water tanks. Vichy told me he boot tanks for the US army. Which is which to be fair is kind of true but when somebody sees the building tanks for the army? You don't think water tanks locate. He was Michael. He was an engineer who he he was Iranian. He was born in sorry he was. Actually he was born in Tehran but he was a media Lesley's dead. Yeah sorry adopted father. I Never Norman's as far as on losses the biological parents. She's adopted I didn't know that but man brings them. The other pace with the the actually is with trust funds supposedly came from was from her biological parents in what she got left behind and then she was so somebody adopted a baby with a trust fund well. This is where like you know there's so many facets to someone's personality stories old. Woah otherwise eventually you actually just gonNA give up asking in except some of in in the moment on just says it's bullshit. You know will most of us. I knew the story had lots of strange tentacles Basim asking Greg this stuff. Every answer seems to sprout more bizarre limbs for me to understand even just basic really basic questions like how old is. Leslie issues associated with all of the me How much older will she had to birthdates. So what do you mentioned to face uh-huh Vilakazi. What do you mean a lot is fun. We'll in the situation you should was all the eight or ten years. I think what do you mean she had two birthdays she had two different passports as what way we explain explain line so to the US passport but there was other documentation with different front bit is even strike. Well yeah sure there was a plausible reasons which will what I think for memory walls smuggled out of a million. The passport was smuggled out of no she people's while so we've caught the pace plus will the Hawaiians attacking you right she. She's in the lever. I want you to meet my older brother Simon Simon. I'm your brother. I'm the youngest of US brothers Griggs in the Middle Simon's. The oldest host Simon can be intimidating but he's also charismatic like he'd get crushed potty and then be the life of he's got a shaved head. Thick like did a few sentences. Just describe yourself for people listening like how would you in a couple of sentences some yourself up oddest oddest a lover not no a brother you like what do you mean for. Kiwis at home like Simon when Leslie Louis Manoukian tuned up she was pretty full on she was a real different character to have around new is it was it was it was and to tell you the truth the direction of the head with an American. I think like a pro American luck. She's like the quintessential kind of Kelly chick with that strong strong accent. I just seen that on TV just interactions with our member feeling like TV because you know what I mean. He's sort of nineteen sixty him in what he's the Alpha. It didn't seem like this huge love affair but Greg's injuries anyway anyway. He's a thin guy say something that may seem strange in another situation. Oh My oh this is just greg. This is my brother Griggs. Kiwi nights also found Lee quite buzzy it will very quick to get wrapped up and laze late because she was like the life the party should roll up with a Yankee Meister and back then I was a teenage girls twenty four so his check who was it's like just paying for everything that she was always I mean can I talk about drug. She's always supplying. Wade End Yagi Meister too quick way to twenty four year world top weight in Yoga Muster hundred percent right most people will like sweet has but for some others it was a bit much like for instance if she'd come over we'll have a drink or wine would go over there and have a really expensive. Laredo something admissions similarly mice Bado. She turn up the next day with like a whole case of the stuff and be like this is for you. Every time we caught up she was always shoring up in gifts like giving us literally guests Hyang. I'm for everything free alcohol. This is amazing but when it was every catch up I said this is we it. This is not our normal almost friendship with what needs to come near you to record a what that's my mom. Julie describing my microphone Mum's the Toll Eighty. She used to be self conscious a teenager one time. She danced with your friend in the girls bathroom because she didn't think any of the boys would wanNA dance with a toll ago but now she owns it and she's pretty Sassy and sarcastic. Could you just put survey of the in the CAN. Can you start by. Just why don't you tell me me a little bit about yourself. Hello I'm the mother of three believes hey. I soldi I would not survive the upbringing I love the three of them but the one we're going to speak of is lovely Greek who is kind fast seeing an intelligent good looking young man and people used to even say he looked like Tom crease so that must be a Megyn but in that it seems James this benefit of former ability. My brother is kind but I gotta say he doesn't look like Tom. Kerr's Arken Mum thoughtlessly looked like a movie autour a she was rather lovely she had stuck a safer skin and look to Pearson Allergy Bubbly Very Yaar American Americans hefty accent denying saying Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. I know I just know so. It's just a miracle and we go to them with it. MOM ended up hanging out with leslie like every day each day. She would make me take somebody like let's go and I was happy to do it for goodness sake what was planned though I mean what would I to buy a business New Zealand over hospitality telecity nature one day she'd been trolling through things up. Nabih dream and she came down and she seed a founded. I've got she sees this as a sign. I have to buy this place and it was was the sign sign mowers that she had a big dragonfly tasty to cross the big and so the cafe is called the dragonfly. She's GonNa dragonfly. Ted who it's a sign. The dragonfly cafe was in a small town could Marikana an hour's drive north of Oakland around Medica lush night of Bush and farms sit next to sandy white beaches is a farmer's market vibe. Sometimes ducks waddle around around town from the river which is lit up by fear lots at night. The dragonfly was on the main road leading into Medicare at the front. A gift shop sold seemed candles. Impeach House knickknacks on the back patio. The cafe looked down a slope towards a natural waterfall all surrounded by native Bush. If you look backup towards the cafe you'd see a house with a log cabin. Feel to it with exposed wooden beams. This is Greg lazily would live this lovely safest and remember how much it was going to be worth Iva I've ever million because it had the house with the beautiful land and the business okay you ready to rock and roll and finally from album. This is my Dad David. I'm a Kiwi fellow who has had lots of jobs lots of people. I feel fairly comfortable and myself. I have developed feely strong. Christian faith and I think that saved me very well. My Whole Life Dad has looked the same. He's got around around warm face and capable of showing anger squid losses. Silva gray hair just early on the sides. Maybe it's because of the way from home for so long but sometimes I hear dad like Murray the manager from flight of the conchords like coal looking pair of any it's dead was they'd helplessly gets it up when she came to New Zealand so so she needed a lawyer an order to look at properties and decent conveyancing and thought poor girl she doesn't have any body the age she can avail lawyer so introduced to to L. lawyer. This Auckland based lawyer had been acting for Mom and Dad for twenty five years. When my parents bought the house in nineteen eighty two he was their dead bought a business that hideout potty equipment he worked on that it made sense to get on the job felise. Lee to now that she was part of the family with that sorted linked to New Zealand's state owned bank creatively titled Kiwibank and she asked for a loan the conditions included Leslie proving proving to Kiwibank that she had a trust fund she was able to show the bank that she had five million. US dollars in her trust fund and five thousand coming to her each month for life but literally it only just come to New Zealand and she was still on a tourist visa. Another condition of the line was having a Kiwi guarantor dad just sold and his party high accompanying retired so it seemed natural for them to get involved. There are a lot of people that were sort of saying things cautioning us shore. That's a huge thing today and I was thinking. Lazily seems to be on top of all this. She has all this fantastic references from running restaurants. I've ever in America and in Hawaii. She talks talk. She convinced a lawyer that it was a good thing to do. I tried to talk to this lawyer but he didn't want to be interviewed and a case that happened lighter he. CD Neva told MOM and dad that it was a great venture. He said he doesn't give that kind of advice to clients but dead remembers things differently he said to me. You don't have if they do anything David because I would say she's a human dynamo has woods shares a human dynamo with thinking every now and again you gotta stick unique out you stick in. Nikkei out little payoff so we guaranteed align one hundred hundred percent line to purchase one and a half million dollars worth of property in business lawful lot on trust here on my pat. Nhl Pat huge amount we did stick in Greg and Leslie moved into the house at the dragonfly over the last few months of two thousand and saving Greg wouldn't have much to do with the cafe. He had his own job. Leslie was in charge but so my brother Simon got wrote down on the food side of the business a May have embellished the story about our movie being just a few days before the cafe opened she had blue with the shifts and so and then so I was just let the shift isn't he French. Go and he quit when the cafe reopened. There was a lot of buzz around it. Things are going well. Leslie was making an impact on the chilled-out Medicom community. He was the California power business lady shaking things up the local magazine did a ride up now under its new owner Leslie Manoukian who was previously owned restaurants Johnson Lake Tahoe and the US in Hawaii dragonfly is getting beat up by the day. Meanwhile preparations were underway for a massive winning but it soon became clear that none of Liz Liz Trust Fund fringe from America. We're GONNA make it. She said none of them could heck. Thirteen hour flight to Auckland Sukey Weigo's that Loosley it known for only a matter of months started getting the cool up to the bridal party like collor who is back in London I remember sitting at my desk and and hawks turn and my offers and I remember thinking this is so weird and sort of saying to a fuel that goes in the in the showroom like just us to bridesmaid to the school alive daily no in New Zealand and January one of the other bridesmaids. Aleisha hadn't only long either. I was asked to be a prize mench. which was it's quite surprising? I think she needs someone get. OUTTA cousin couldn't come so I think I was kind of the Lincoln like she didn't didn't really have any family here and yeah I mean. I guess I was happy to do it because we were you know. We've called for the time after everything that went down. My mom stopped referring to it as the waiting. She renamed it and family. It's now known as the event the event happened on a blue skies summer day just after Christmas in a small colonial Era Church with painted white arches and stiff wooden pews and it was really surreal. The acting was acting in a sitcom or something like that was my role to arrive and then you're not going to go down and it was it was so weird. The ceremony was pretty standard a priest those Bible ratings from every church wedding. Ever love is patient. Love is kind after the party started straightaway in a whole next door. I was living in London by this point and I'd flown harm especially for the wedding. I was happy to be the say I remember making a joke like Jesus. Go Away for a couple of months in a comeback in Griggs go to cafe a house and a waterfall. I can't find any recordings of that night pretty much. Everyone we know in New Zealand was there more than one hundred fifty people came. There were even winning crashes. She's watching from the dead but his the weird thing. Almost all the guests were from Greg side the only guests that weren't already friends or family of Greg's eggs with lease lease parents Andrew. There was no friends no family I think the weirdest thing and I think that we'd ever on just about the event was hit the parent thing appearance and just how how how I think there was a lot of these that we just stand offish. There would dislike I dunno it was it was just fucking weird. I don't really being able to talk to them at all that there was no really interaction very quiet and you couldn't raise a lip of smile. You couldn't get a weird out of them. They looked very she looked very pale and callous. The Bass Man Nazi the parents those very very hard to to try and make them feel welcome. Just remember at one point just walking away fixing up well. I remember joking with mad about the fact that potentially you know elise lease parents even her real parents would have. She just ringing a couple of actors. They seemed a little bit standing by because they are a sort of a bit the but not the way that they were hired just off because they didn't fit the profile of like who you think your parents would be and that kind of weight and quiet and it wasn't like a lot of love and like vibrating relationship between the two like you would expect from a parent and child what other not honestly like to this day. I've no idea appearance not I wouldn't. I wouldn't be supposedly there's no. I don't remember seeing any kind of love gone. I remember videon and your they bought me a pair of Levi jeans a gift that was coup but they didn't really talk to me either. I still don't know what they knew about what was going on all what their role was in all of this. I think they kind of knew that there was some some fuck. ARY It evolved. Oh you know what I mean. It wasn't long after the wedding that people started to notice some of that factory. I was up open Ramirez shops I bumped into loosely and she had just come out of the public library and she was Sharman at this document that she had seen from the US because she was trying to get her driver's license and New Zealand but she had to submit like driving record from the US and we were having thing alive because she handled these Dui in some like suspended licenses or something like a she had like a a few things and she was in the public library nor jarque she was twinking out days from her record they obviously she had asked for and been seemed from the US twinkies out and embrace photocopying them and then touching them up and race ladder company them until that looks legit by the way twinkie is one of those words that people laugh at US Kiwis about its white out liquid Risa tw- INC and I just I remember standing on the road with this like vividly showing me the document in having a laugh about it and I was thinking like that so I think was the first styles like she's got. She's got some secrets you don't. You're hiding some stuff end up at the dragonfly cafe. Things were starting to go wrong. We ran out of the show so we didn't have access in the kitchen to wash INFO gregan likewise. We're kind of running back and forward to the house trying to get like bottles of water trying to get to wash dishes and they were just so many days like that. Something was going wrong and there was just not. I'm not fixing it. I don't think was around for much of that. I remember coming in really strong at the beginning an in kind of not being around and baffle like what's happening. There was one moment where it was a bit of a watershed moment for me and nets win the milk supplier for the KFI arrived in associate and he basically. He said that he had never been paid for milk. It wasn't as first attempt getting money. I could tell that it was a bit worked up about it and this is this is this is not right and I recall talking to Leslie about it and she should've off did was lots of things. Take care of it. Don't get involved to me. The dragonfly was becoming a total cluster. A bunch of people were saying they weren't getting paid. I became very frustrated that I couldn't access and information I couldn't. I couldn't even get to the bottom of anything. Loosely loosley almost got angry at me for attempting to try and help and get more involved. The more happens the more angry she got me. The more frustrated I got and that became a real strain started feel very uneasy and we needed to find out what was going on. we would. I would find out a heck of a lot from the bank. We would actually owners in the business. We weren't a signatory to anything. Even Greg wasn't able to to find out alot of stuff but you are the guarantors and God put money on the line but you you would sign up to be the guarantors but not signed signed up to be able to see anything. Isn't that weird you could set like that but I did fall more. Lewis at voice that she knows what she's doing. She's a Human Donna on the Leslie would spend most of the day locked in the house which had become a sanctuary from the outside world and the questions. Chen's people were starting to ask edite was sick for a meeting where an accountant was. GonNa stop harming through the books but Leslie didn't show up Greg. We needed to do something so he came up with a plan. If she was here she would block us learning about what the reality was told you the county appearing dark holiday get out of the country and you actually thought that would be an opportunity to look around probably is the only way Yup and What was you know if you don't mind me asking what was the kind of relationship that point frosty you just completely untrusting on by thoughts pretty short notice? Leslie booked a flight to America to visit her family so my mom and dad would have to step up and look after the cafe as Greg Driven Oakland airport things pants there was a lot unsaid but greg wanted to work this whole mess out and get back to life with Leslie when she got back from the states so we parked chick done formalities at done mainly Isley now walking upstairs to the actual Paci Gate where there's not a lot of love going on. There was probably a nervous but code hug hope to see you you again. It's drawn with this out and she brought at the last moment. Put it right out out there Greek. The snow bull is about to hit you next episode this normal hits. We cried destroyed. That was a fundamental well nine for a when you perceived it to a bank and I accept it adrenaline. aniline is my best friend with calculators. That's fucking. Somebody's been wronged using my name and rightfully believes believe that the person who wronged them as meat. I found he sees judy. Janitors should've found at how often would you go in there and look at least once a week this week that is snowball is hosted and produced by me. Paulie awards they got to my brave brother. Greg and my entire family fully tell the story and rebels totally. Lee STOIC and awesome supervising producer. Is Tim Rodber. Our super diligent audio jury said is Emma Laine CASTA assisting with audio production is Shane Anderson who is also our smart fetching a sound design by the very creative lift and right panning John Jacobs and Tim Jenkins a big thanks to mock prolific and legendary Mites from flight facilities the Funky us on rebel theme song additional music by the talented June Smith Bryce Halladay. You can check out some behind the scene stuff over at my instagram. Ali Woods O. L. L. I. WALDS unravel is a product of ABC audio studios lead by the boolean thoughtful folk and patient Kelly ridden and unravels expert an excitable executive producer is Dan Walker you've been listening to an ABC A._B._C. podcast discover more great A._B._C. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen APP.
07 | State Secrets
"This is an ABC podcast. Just a warning before. We thought this podcast contains some strong language. Stralia wake up to on the day after the eleven. Almost as soon as the news cited violent and ugly demonstrations right around Australia with a particularly violent demonstration in Melbourne with police wagons at one stage driving into a crowd nothing protesters and police alike to the ground. We'll talk supporters. His dismissal caused shock confusion and anger described. Believe me Oregon disgusting. I mentioned we could be pretty stormy period Malcolm. Fraser was nail the caretaker prime minister and a four week election campaign had begun. How many people here want a Liberal Party to govern? After December government that is an improper. Not that is lying to the fighters of vision of a stable future under seminar. Thirty for prosperity for responsibility. But the same thing that Mr Khan promise in a thousand years integrity and responsibility in God to talk about Stability Whitland moved to capitalize on the sense of injustice that he and his supporters felt jurors of Australian. Democracy is in. Your hands is a strategy to continue to be a parliamentary democracy government selected by the people through the People's now these questions and a only as you give the pins survival of parliamentary democracy as we know it or as we all believe we knew it until eleven th of November. Nineteen seventy five. Remember that Mr Prices Dia Shine but mice destroy. DidN'T WANNA REMEMBER WILLIAMS. Outrage just reminded voters of the years of division dysfunction and scandal that surrounded his government and when election day came around they totally rejected. Whitlam's message and his government. Tonight is the moment of truth for Australia's political leaders. And who will it be four weeks? After Whitlam Lost His job he lost the election. Malcolm Fraser's Liberal Country Party coalition was fighting with one of the biggest majorities in astrology and political history. They won by a record. Fifty five seats is GonNa ask you if you regard the size of the majority of indication of your stand over the past couple of months with the size of the majority of places a tremendous responsibility on us to govern in the interests of all spoons after the election. Australia wanted it's politicians to just get on with governing. That didn't mean that everyone was happy to forget about the dismissal. Altogether in years to come as the dust settled on this extraordinary chapter. People still wanted to know what really happened on the eleventh of November nineteen seventy five. Some people didn't know if they could trust their democracy any war. What they did know. Was that something. Unprecedented had gone down and it felt like there was more to the story. There were still so many things we didn't know including the answer to one crucial question. Did the Governor General Sir. John Kerr Act alone. I think there are enormous. Sates deceptions at the time of the dismissal. Enough to warn the removal of golf with him. I learned that I could not trust them. Won't happen with the dismissal was in a straight infighting care was writing to the claim several times a day. This is very very delicate math. I'm Alex men and this is the final episode of the Eleventh. In the years following the dismissal. There was plenty of time for people to think. About who if anyone might have helped said John Keg get the job done? I Imagine Whitlam's True Believers in those early days scratching their heads trying to understand what had just happened as if it was a kind of mystery that needed to be solved. Trolling through the Whitlam Government's years in office for clues like that time when Whitlam just three weeks into the job criticized the US for bombing. North Vietnam Nixon says this is a very very stupid thing to do then just a few weeks. After that we limbs attorney general had raided easier. This was like a domestic intrusion in the process compromise. The security of the secrets that is Yo- shared with the CIA and pissed off the agency's most senior operatives it was a raid Then in the midst of the Crisis Whitlam had made that out righteous accusation that the opposition was funded by the CIA lease man who are subsidized by and on the very day. He was dismissed as prime minister. Whitlam was planning to stand up in parliament and confirm the identity of a former. Cia agent all this during an era when the US government had supported grapes plotting a coup against another point. Government didn't like in Chile for those who are suspicious of the US and it. Secret Service timing with UNCANNY. Let me say I am not a conspiracy theorist I usually think it's a backup Rather than than conspiracy usually at someone stuffed up So this doesn't fit my nomadic Operandi. Ri- Martin was a correspondent living in New York when Whitlam was dismissed then when he started connecting those stories he came up with something pretty radical. There was so many things that happened leading up to November eleventh nineteen seventy five That involves the Americans and puts the American finger in the Drian Pie That it's hard not to believe. They went somewhere involved for those who subscribe to this theory. That thinking goes like this the US and it's intelligence agency the CIA were extremely concerned about wetlands left-wing government. They also knew that in the coming months there would have to start renegotiating with the Australian government to renew the lease on the precious listening station at Pine gap so to preserve their secrets and protect pine gap. They'd some help leaned on. So John. Kerr to sack Whitlam from his post in the US as a foreign correspondent. Raymond scored a series of exclusive interviews. That helped push that theory along the I was with the retired bus of counter intelligence the CIA. James Jesus Angleton detailed for the first time just how concerned the CIA was about Whitlam's government and in particular. How concerned they were. When Whitlam's Attorney General had righted ISO so Riasuddin James. Jesus Angleton the big question serious enough if the situation was the way you described as to warrant the removal Golf Whitlam of course absolute simply inconceivable to meddle in the internal Thursday. That's right okay. So that's a no. But Ray wasn't and still isn't really convinced by that answer. Remember this guy deals in secrets him saying that they would involve the astride election. Whether we're not is not to be taken at face value. He had no reason to stage to tell the truth. Then got a tip about another CIA connection who might be willing to talk and this man story would add more white to the theory but to interview him. Ray would have to go inside the maximum security prison in Leavenworth Kansas. This is a really heaviest of the American prisons. The serious murderers serious rapists in. This case aspires well. The spy inside the prison with a young man named Christopher Boyce and he had a story so crazy that it would eventually be turned into a Hollywood movie starring. Sean Pin voice was a private security contractor. Who'd been locked up for sailing the secret messages to the Russians but it was what was in the sacred messages that came across voices disc that were of interest to Raman and to Australia media groups across the US had been chasing Christopher Boyce's story but boys only want to speak to ray so writes this interview for Channel Nine's sixty minutes. Rays first question to boys was an obvious one so why choose us because you are Australian journalists and because I would kicked this all off was deceptions. My government against yours. Christopher Boyce was twenty one years old when he started working at an aerospace company called TRW TRW was responsible for building CIA satellites to spy on Russia and China and passing on the messages they intercepted. Boyce's job was essentially to receive decipher and pass. On the messages that came in from American intelligence insecurity installations around the world one of the key installations he received messages from was pine gap in the middle of the Australian desert and they would then decide for the messages and send the deciphered. Obviously secret information onto the CIA in Washington or in Virginia so the Inflammation Boyce was exposed to. It was top secret highly classified and confidential and the place in the W building where it was kept was a super secret room called the black vault but calling something. The black vault doesn't actually make it secure and the interview. Christopher Boyce can be seen slouched in his chair looking back at Rimington through squinted eyes then as he puffs on his cigarette he starts telling stories about the ridiculous things that he and his work might cease to do inside that Black Bolt Pretty Wild Scene. I walked into it. Black Ball was almost like the project bar. This interview was like a window into another world as boys tall rice stories about booze fueled parties a small marijuana crop growing inside the vault and then this one about how he and his colleagues had even found creative use for the CIA document shredder. We used to make dockery's document destruction blender. You can always here. I do a double take. What the shredder. Yes make decorated trees but at the some use the camera flicks back to Reimann and you can see this huge smile on his face that he's failing miserably to hide then he gives up and just chuckles out loud again. That's the that's the. That's the talk for mayor and before I got there. It wasn't my but he made a hell of a dachary. Christopher Boyce knew about pine gap he knew that the base existed on Australian soil under an agreement between the Australian and. Us government's the deal was that the US could have their secret base in the desert. As long as they shed certain information they collected with the USTRALIAN 's boss was responsible for handling a lot of the Intel that came in from pine gap but soon after he started working at Ti. W he realized that not all of it was being shared with Australia. So you will tell. The Americans would not live up to the agreement that they had all information wouldn't be shared. No one wasn't being shared. It's very important. There was no attempt to John. Hot At that was that was part of your briefing definitely hear voices. Revelations in his interview with Ray were explosive not only was he alleging that the US was in breach of its agreement with Australia. He was also saying that the organization he worked for TI W had a totally cavalier approach to protecting the sacred sit handled in one case. Boyce said he hurt his colleagues speaking openly about how they disliked Whitlam Government. Boyce says it was this attitude towards the. Us ally turned him against his time country and set him on the path that would end in him selling secrets to the Russians. One of the things that most troubled boys was a comment by staff member about the governor. General says John Carr was references to Here Governor General by the Central Intelligence resident. Evil Mr Kerr. Our Man Kerr. This was where the interview had real potential to cause a stair in Australia. Boys didn't quite know what a governor general was but he knew that the position sounded important before he was obviously top policy was a a a king like figure in Australia. And yet he was referred to by his colleagues as Elman Kerr but as far as evidence goes unverified claims. If someone saying Almond Kerr is not exactly rock-solid then it's worth saying explicitly that there is no evidence at all to suggest that co was in the pockets of the CIA. So the the smoking gun. I wonder if the Spike and Gunn exists. We know all the the strands point two would some involvement. But there isn't a the evidence that you'd put up in court and say this question of the Americas were involved but there's another strand that perhaps goes a man in a private area at the Qantas Lounge at CPI airport a small group of VIP's gathering. There's only four of us in the room. I want you to picture a really quite unpretentious very business like small wood paneled room. I think there's some coffee and drinks on the side. This is someone you haven't heard from before in this series. His name is Richard Butler. And he worked as wetlands. Chief of staff after Whitlam was dismissed. I started working for golf. I think it was four or five months after the dismissal followed by election which he lost there'd been a leadership spill and despite his massive election loss Whitlam had been reinstalled as Labor Lleida. It was nineteen seventy seven when Whitlam and Richard Butler were unexpectedly summoned to this mysterious meeting in the wood paneled room at the Qantas Lounge they'd been called in to receive a message from none other than the. Us President Jimmy Carter. He wasn't there on the day but he's Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher and the US ambassador to Australia would there in his place. They sat down and made a brief shove of courtesy. To see you here. It's Cetera and we got very quickly down to business first of all. He said I have asked for this meeting on instructions from President Carter. This was to make clear that this was not a lightweight metal. This was not just to be a chat. Butler says the President's missing Warren Christopher had rehearsed his message carefully and it came in four points. The first point was about how Whitlam Inkatha came from the same side of politics. This is the word he used. As fraternal parties. The second point was that the US respected the democratic rights of its allies. Next came insurance as long as he is president he will always respect the decision of the Australian people so far. Nothing to controversial Whitland by the way just listened to all of this carefully in silence but then came the kicker the final point was he wishes to assure you that they will never again be interference in the Australian political process. Not that they wouldn't ever but they will never again. Bottling tend to look at Whitland. He'd been sitting there quietly sitting on his right and he was to the left of name and his head was bowed a bit looking more at the table than a Christopher for a little while as this was being said he was taking it in. Buffalo was confused. Why wasn't Whitland reacting. Why wasn't he cross examining the president's Messenger to get some more information searching Frances? It's like the words just went sinking in golf simply took note of what he was told by. Christopher he possibly even offered his compliments be returned to president cotton to thank him full in the message that he'd sent back to courtesy as it would for Butler. The takeaway was obvious. And that was Kata acknowledging that had been deep hostility in Washington under Nixon towards with them and that they had been action taken by relevant United States are. He's to interfere. What else could have been talking about? But we didn't interpret the message like Butler in the car on the way back to the office butler. Let's says Whitlam's response to the meeting was muted. It's like he just didn't think it was that significant and I've never known why Except maybe his political and diplomatic judgment was better than mine. Golf is a very skilled statesman and Pepsi. Heard very loud and clear what was being said the judgement that this is not the time or amendment to join issue about it but simply to take note of what he'd been told and take it away and reflect on the main after a period of time golf kind of let the whole idea that they had been foreign interference in our polity directed to see him lose government. was an issue that should be pursued that he simply decided to let it go when President Carter was asked in August fifteen about this meeting about whether the CIA had interfered in Australian politics. He admitted the. Us had involved itself in other countries under previous administrations. But he said I don't know about Australia specifically It's easy to see why people find this story. Compelling they look a foreign government with a track record of political interventions around the world and they pay maybe they intervened in our politics two and as far as spy thrillers go it really does have all the right ingredients the CIA spies high stakes involving secret defense installations and the US Australia alliance but like all the best conspiracy theories. It also has a title lack of conclusive evidence. The best we've got is the word again. And the phrase Alman Kerr and on top of that the guy at the center of. It'll Gough Whitlam. Well he doesn't buy it Ray. Martin asked him about it and I said look in on it. Believe in conspiracies put all pulled together in this and he said modern think they did it he said I don't think without guilty removed. They didn't even say well the jury's out let's see what history brings in terms of it but he said he didn't think that he'd been a victim of conspiracy sow right mountains reporting was instrumental in revealing the depth of US government and CIA suspicion of Gough Whitlam and Rye Love Good Young. He's devoted his life and his career to finding them getting people to share them and then telling them to huge public audiences but even he admits the final piece of evidence is just not. Yeah and if after nearly forty five years now unfounded yet then maybe it just doesn't exist. We don't have any proof we've got all these strains at indicate with her be angleton whether it be boys whether it be Nixon Kissinger et Cetera. We have the spiking out. All we have a strays and and it remains a wonderful novel. It reminds a fantastic feature film. And maybe that fantastic feature film is obscuring another more important story. I mean what happened with the dismissal was an Australian failure. This is something. We got wrong. Journalist Paul Kelly says that theory of Foreign. Intervention is a baseless distraction from. What's actually a problem of our making? This is something we stuffed up in terms of alleys air institutions. This is Aaron failing and the effort to try and palm it off to the Americans I on this was an American conspiracy Is it somehow pathetic? We've got to face up to our own deficiencies in our own failures. So that's where we're gonNA leave this talk about the CIA putting that aside if Cho wasn't pressured by the CIA or the US you might think he had nothing to hide about. What happened on the eleventh of November? Nineteen seventy five. But you'd be wrong. Kerr had secrets. Because instead of being open and honest with the Prime Minister and making his intentions clear he'd covertly consulted with a range of powerful people developed a plan behind closed doors heated old from the prime minister and then once the date was done kept various details away. From the Glare of public scrutiny. But the secrets couldn't be kept forever. And eventually they began to surface more than a decade after the dismissal. The first clue emerged. It was a story about a crucial fine coal night on the morning of the eleventh at nine fifty five. Am A phone call from care to Fraser. This is truly famous phone. Call boys disputed. It's SA- jonker calling Malcolm Fraser. It's just a few hours before the dismissal. Although Whitlam had given her permission to consult with Fraser he knew nothing of this phone call. It was a fine coal maiden secret that Paul Kelly says should never have happened. The Governor General is not a referee the Governor General excellently on the advice of the prime minister. He doesn't act on the advice of the opposition leader any access. The opposition leader has to the governor. General is extended privilege on the fine. That morning said John. Kerr wanted some commitments. So Kerr Asks Fraser. A series of questions if we're told was dismissed and fries was made prime minister would fraser coal and advise a double dissolution election. What do you agree to run a caretaker administration during the campaign? Paul Kelly says that phrase at quickly realized these questions were much more than just hypotheticals. Fraser drew the obvious the irrefutable conclusion that Kerr was thinking and planning about dismissing the Prime Minister Fraser Hung Up. The phone jotted down some nights on a piece of paper and left it on his desk. One of his staffers would define the night and make a copy. So jonker has always denied that this fine coal happened Paul. Kelly is adamant it did so. I've called this the tip off phone call now. I think the evidence for this is overwhelming. And there's not just a direct evidence from Malcolm Fraser. There's also circumstantial evidence from other liberals as well who were in the room or who spoke to Malcolm Fraser Straight afterwards. Paul Kelly says by this point it was clear Sir John. Kerr was doing things. No Governor General had done before the real motive is to ensure that this high risk exercise the extraordinarily high risk exercise on which Kerr is embarking actually goes smoothly and that he achieves the two essential conditions the dismissal of Whitlam on the commissioning of Fraser. So it's it's about Kerr. It's about ensuring that his plan works. Do you call that collision. There's no doubt whatsoever that he'd has clear and distinct overtones of collusion fraser ahead. A degree of prior knowledge that was denied to Richland. That's inexcusable when I interviewed phrases chief of Staff. Dial Bud even. He seemed quite uncomfortable about these fine coal. But wasn't there when the fine call happened but he was the one who found and photocopied phrases. Notes from the call. It was Highly unusual irregular For these conversations to occur say at worst they were plotting together to take down the Whitlam Government and at best. It's highly inappropriate contact with the leader of the opposition at an incredibly tense. Political Time isn't it? I wouldn't Agree with the proposition. That Malcolm Fraser and Sa- Jonker were plotting together. Was it inappropriate contact? I really can't. I can't explain or defend that you wouldn't defend that. Nah Not Defend. That Fraser isn't the only person that care may have consulted within sacred and there were more surprises in store for those who are coming through the evidence trying to work out what had happened. I firmly believe that from the very first days at this missile when I was about twenty nine almost had a gut feeling that couldn't be something Simon Mantis type place with. Only the Governor General making a sole decision on his own journey. Hugging Whitlam's biographer three decades after the dismissal. When she started to try to make sense of Whitlam's Downfall. She went to the National Archives to look over the pipes of. Sir John Kerr. These deposited many years earlier. But under the Archives Act they only become available for view at that time. City is after they were they were created. Hawking was one of the first to examine them and as absolutely staggered father significance. And by the fact that I hadn't become part of the historic research before that date they were unopened. She went through file after file and eventually she opened one. That contained a bombshell. I do recall precisely opening that fall which had a very bland heading. There's no indication from that it was going to be enormously volcanic in the way that it was transforming our understanding of the dismissal that we'd had previously there's not add about that. The file came with a cryptic message. Handwritten by Sir John Kerr but it was also very floridian. It's language very melodramatic. He says if the document is found among my papers after I have died because he's role will be lost to history and it should be known. He's he's role should be non and as I'm reading it. I think he who's he. Who's this person that's had this extraordinary role as absolutely shocked to see that it was Anthony? Mason? There was already nine that are anthony. Mason was one of the High Court. Judges had spoken to just dies before the dismissal. But until hawking found this document it was assumed that his contact with care on issue was minimal. What does files showed was that in fact? Mason had been in secret communication with Kerr Advising Kerr on his POWs since at least August. Nineteen seventy five. It was an incredible revelation. It showed Sir John. Kerr had been talking with sir. Anthony Mason about the possibility of sacking them for at least three months before he did it. That's well before Fraser. Blocked supply and forced parliament into a deadlock but Mason's role went even further sir. Antony's role cannot be underestimated. He's rose hi close and such an active one that he actually drafted a letter of dismissal. Foca and on top of that when the dismissal was hanging in the balance on the afternoon of November the eleventh while the Speaker of the House of Representatives was kept. Whiting by Sir. John Kerr but I believe intelligence told just in the corridor the now wipe say speaker of the House of Representatives. They have that nation conveyed to Kerr had called Anthony Mason on the phone for advice. Coup was concerned rather delightedly. You might think concerned about the fact that the House of Representatives had now very clearly stated that it wanted the governor general terrain state the Whitlam Government and Mason say to him that the motion of the House while he relevant so John. Kirk kept the speaker whiting then finished off what it started shocked by the new information. She'd found Jenny hocking. Arrange to meet up with Sir Anthony Mason. She wanted to know exactly what role he played in advising Kerr I say to him very clearly I neither one of I need to that point. People still leaving who can shade rely on what actually happened at that time and I said would you in the interest of history speak to me about it and he looked at me and said I o history nothing. It's a brave man that tells a professor of history that they owe history nothing. I was so appalled by that comment from somebody who had spent much of his working life working in public office to have such an attitude that it was a tyke secret decisions that impacted enormously on our history and on our political history in particular and yet not be prepared to speak about it publicly and deny any responsibility to history but later in two thousand twelve sir. Anthony Mason was prepared to cite something publicly about his discussions with it was a three thousand five hundred word statement published in the Sydney Morning Herald in it. He admitted Kirk consulted with him months before the dismissal that he had advanced knowledge of Kerr's intentions and that he prepared an early draft of a letter of dismissal but he insists he didn't encourage or advise KURT TO SACK. Whitlam and notes. That didn't end up using the draft glitter of dismissal. That he wrote a Sarangani. Mason statement also contained another massive revelation that he'd made it clear to her that if he was going to dismiss. Whitlam should want him. I something Kurt did not do. We asked Sarah Anthony Mason for an interview and he declined so months before the dismissal said John Kerry had been shoring up his understanding of the palace. He held an hours before the dismissal. He'd secretly sounded out. Malcolm Fraser to make sure his plan would work. But while the secrecy. Well it's pretty clear that said John Kerry was afraid of losing his job. He knew that if Whitland got an inkling of what he was considering Whitlam might have contacted the Palace and had him removed. But it's not really in the Governor General's job description to go about making sacred plans behind the prime minister's back. Kerr gave Whitlam no sense that there was even a possibility of dismissing the government and this is a really critical factor particularly in the context of his openness with Abbas is the contrast of that with his secrecy with the government of the day Virginia Hawking the paces was starting to fit together then the extent of curse subterfuge was becoming clear. Then in two thousand ten hawking found something else incurs private papers something that if it was true had the potential to implicate Buckingham Palace in the dismissal of an Australian prime minister. It was a diary entry. That would go onto caused a huge controversy and huge fights over the veracity and meaning of curse words. It was about a meeting with Prince Charles in Papua New Guinea in September seventy five. They was nasty. Isn't my Shakespearean sort of meeting. All of the people who later with the protagonist in the dismissal. Prince Charles was there. John was there and Gough Whitlam was there. The plane just arrived. The Jet Tha carrying His Royal Llamas Prince Charles landed from the what's taking place is Independence Day in. Png John White shirt and trousers in his diary entry about This Day. John details the conversations. He says he had with Prince Charles. This Jenny hocking interprets that diary entry. He had this extraordinary conversation with Prince Charles and the extraordinary conversation included a discussion by could that he may at some point need to remove the government from office and remember. It's September a month before supplies even blocked in the Senate which means if it happened the Waco described then like the secret consultations with Mason. This discussion would have been taking place before. There was even a deadlock to warrant the government's dismissal but he put to Charles that he was concerned. That Whitney might try to remove him from office. That if Whitlam got wind the fact that the Governor General was considering having almost prime minister himself might seek to remove Kerr Governor General but what is the most extraordinary incurs recanting of this conversation with Prince? Charles was that Charles responded but so John Surely you should not have to be recalled from office just when you are considering dismissing? The government hawking interprets. That statement like this that Kerr shouldn't have to fear for his own job while he was considering sacking Whitlam now that is critical absolutely critical because it shows us that the palace three Prince Charles was aware of the possibility of the dismissal of the government in September. Nineteen seventy five. According to Carr's diary Prince Charles then passes on those concerns to the Queen's private secretary who then rights to a saying that in this kind of scenario quite although the Queen would try to delight things in the end she would have to take the prime minister's advice in other words rather than acting on the advice of the prime minister. Whitlam try to recall from office as Governor General rather than acting on that which in any constitutional monarchy is the requirement that the quaint acts on the advice of the prime minister that they would be an attempt to delay things. If this is in fact what the Palace Roy took her Jenny. Hocking believes that would have taken comfort from it. He would have taken great strength from that decision from the palace and he would have seen that as a raw grain lot for the action. He was too tight so jenny. Hocking believes the diary nights shy while the prime minister was kept completely in the dark the palace was aware of what? Co was considering. Here's the thing though. This is all become the subject of a huge controversy journalist. Paul Kelly for one says the account of the conversation with Prince. Charles is so extraordinary. He doubts that it happened. The way describes in his diary. It's an extraordinary exchange If it's true or they would have to be a doubt about its veracity. There's no other anecdotal or documentary evidence to sustain this at all rather than concentrating on the part of the letter talking about delays. Paul Kelly looks at the other part of the letter that says in the end she would have to take the prime minister's advice which is basically just a statement of fact that if the prime minister tried to have her removed eventually the. Queen would have to follow that advice. That's the rules. Kelly says he wouldn't be surprised at all if there was some chatter between care in the palace in general terms about the possibility that the Governor General might have to intervene because at the time a lot of people were raising that possibility but in the end he believes Kurt never told the palace that he was going to sack Whitlam and that he never sought their approval. That is the longstanding long documented position of the Governor General. It's the longstanding long documented position of the palace. It's what the palace senior officials have said repeatedly to what they have put in their documents to the Australian government Gough Whitlam never never made any such accusation that the palace the Queen Walls Party To this and we don't have any hard documentary evidence to the country. And that's what could resolve this debate once and for all had documentary evidence instead of relying on these vague descriptions and fragments from Kerr's diaries. What if we had copies of every letter exchange between Kerr and the palace? Well we actually do. We actually have those leaders. They're sitting in a room in Australia's national archives. But we're not allowed to look at them. They raise actually a bundling. The National Archives called the palace leaders. They something like forty or fifty leaders as I understand ours told that they were not available for public access because they were personal papers. The Pella slid has could be the last remaining trove of documents capable of shedding light. On Sir John Kerr's private thinking at the time of the dismissal and they could finally settle the question of what the palace knew if anything about what he was planning but because the lead is a class as personal correspondence. They can't be made public until twenty twenty seven and even then the palace would have the power to veto their release for his part. Kerr said that when the lettuce were eventually released they would show he acted properly jenny. Hocking doesn't want to take his word for it. She's been engaged in a three year battle to get access to that bundle of letters. All Australian should have a right to know what the Governor General was writing to the Queen. And what the Queen was writing to the Governor General regarding the removal of an elected government from office. So my Christie's one in which I've faced a barrier and given that I have a capacity to try and open that area all continue to decide ultimately only said Joan knows why he acted the way he did you ask supporters. They say he suffered unfairly for it. And that if people had a problem with how things panned out they should direct their anger at Whitlam or Fraser. But Not Kerr in view. The Governor General was just the guy with the ability to resolve the crisis using power granted to him by the Constitution. He was acting in the national interests in the end. He just got caught in the middle but whatever his motives. It's true that history has not been kind to SA- Joan Kerr. One of his last public appearances as Governor General was at the nineteen seventy seven Melbourne Cup. In this recording the crowds can be heard booing and heckling as core approached the microphone. He was visibly drunk Life is wonderful for all of us. Especially winners of the Melvin cap about a month later. Sir John Kerr resigned his position as governor general addict after that in nineteen ninety seven he gave a rare interview with UK broadcaster. Geoffrey Robinson. It's one of the few interviews he did when he talks at length about the events of November eleven nineteen seventy five not think that the whole business an anger that's erupted it's made you a leper in your own land. Thanks for that. But it's true but absolutely not invited to to functions even still in use afterwards Jeffrey. This is a very very delicate math. I bet you now I know what price I what I've read so bad road I did. Because in the same circumstances which very special and unusual I would do the same with all the conscientious so jonker died three and a half years. Later on March Twenty Fourth Nineteen ninety-one. He was seventy six years old. So what about Whitlam? Well after the seventy five election loss he stuck around for the next election in seventy seven but he lost that to raise a to whatever people felt about the Y. Whitlam lost his job. It seemed they didn't want him and the Labour Party back in government in Nineteen ninety-five Whitlam gave a speech to mark the twentieth anniversary of the day. He lost his job. It was vintage Whitlam. Filled with in jokes pointed. Barbs at Sir. John Kerr expense. Did he think disc jockey from Quebec and he obsessed over the dates and details of perceive betrayals the tenth of October the seventeenth of October. And the twenty ninth of October. What emerges is a desire for his story the story of his downfall as hey soared to be a matter of public record. I should I indicate my witness that by now these have been truly belong to history for the great majority but that might be no bar at all against the proper understanding of the truth of the matter like most great dramas. The central plot is simple enough. The essence of the operation by which my government was dismissed was secrecy. Secrecy was the absolute condition for the success of the intervention. But we're talking about secrecy sustained against the elected government and the Governor General's constitutional advisor the prime minister. It's this aspect but those who come fresh to the matter find most unbelievable to his critics. Whitland was arrogant reckless and politically responsible to his supporters. He was an idol but to both Iva time he came to be recognized as visionary his reforms around education health care and aboriginal land rights would decades ahead of his time and they transformed the country as he grew old. Gough Whitlam Made Amends. With Malcolm Fraser. In daylight of years the two were more like friends than arch political rivals gough. Whitlam died in two thousand fourteen at the age of ninety eight Malcolm. Fraser died just six months later. Aged eighty four Williams head of department. John Managing continued working with Malcolm Fraser after he won the nineteen. Seventy five election managed. You eventually lift twelve months later. His ability to trust in our institutions never fully recovered. I learned from bitter experience that I had to Tampa my trust some people. Do you think that's what's so painful to recall about this? That it didn't just lose. Your boss. Lost Part of European ability to trust us. I'm more careful about trusting people now. I guess we're all brought up to learn and believe that we need to trust people to my bitter experience. I learnt that I could not trust them and that shook. My confidence inseminate many other institutions like the monarchy The Governor General that so-called powerful influential people could not be trusted. That's what I carry the sky that I carry from the events of November. Live nodding seventy five John Managerial wasn't the only one who'd lost trust in our institutions in the wake of the crisis. Australia's faith in democracy. Hit an all time low but Jenny hocking says if we FICO SOMBAT THEN. We risk learning the wrong lessons from this story. We often remember what Gulf Whitland sit on. The steps of all pound has that day maintain your rage but we should also remember the full quite which maintain your rage and your enthusiasm through my gambling. You going now. Because even at his moment of his greatest despair in terms of the way the institutions of democracy worked over that period he's concern was not with the institutions per se. He never lost faith in institutions. But he was deeply distressed by the actions of those who helped positions of power in those institutions. In that instance. So maybe this is legacy of Whitlam's dramatic rise in full a lesson about the frailty of Australian democracy and it comes with a warning that the institutions that hauled it altogether are only as strong as the people at the top. Prime ministers included. It's a lesson we shouldn't forget. Luckily this story once you've had it. It isn't easily forgotten because as Paul Kelly says. It's just an unbelievably compelling story. It's the most extraordinary story. Where can you get a more dramatic fantastic unfathomable incomprehensible and catastrophic story than this? It is the most compelling narrative about human nature and power but beyond. That is the more serious question for young people. This is your country. This is what we are. This didn't happen all that long ago. That happened in the lifetime of your parents. They lived through it. And what it tells you is. That democracy is not guaranteed. Stability and proper functioning democratic system is not guaranteed. It needs to be worked at it needs to be delivered. The eleventh is hosted by me. Aleks men supervising producer. Is Kim Roxborough? Forty eight produces Nina. Typo Shane Anderson. An elderly Beta wonderful researches stem and Jane Curtis sound designer is Jenkins with additional sound design and the fame composition by Martin. Peralta thanks to Justin Kelly any in walker who they're in the very beginning and very end. Our executive producer is Nikki. Tugwell the eleventh is a product of ABC audience. Videos led by Kelly hidden. We hope you enjoyed the series. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to tell your friends about the show you've been listening to ABC podcast. If you're looking for another great podcast you might want to check out our award-winning true crime. Series unravel and easily. The best place to start would be season. Four hosted by Hollywood's who has plenty of skin in the game. My brother married an American call Nada. St- I find myself in a murky world of CON artists in swindlers. This isn't the kind of story you'd expect to happen to a pretty average Kiwi family like mine Just gobsmacked as to what's going on here I just remember it being luck while she had stuck for vivacious and the safest skin and look to here in after two or three woes. She's associate pass. It wasn't really a surprise. You wonder what is going to be what happens. Cost US everything. I held up to the light and everything moved in the end. My parents lost more than a million dollars. We'd been done. Mom and dad ended up homeless. We just destroyed. It all. Started when my bro- Greg was a backpacker and London. She's very bubbly effervescent personality. He met Leslie Manoukian. Could you hear it across the room? Confident Charismatic Californian will. It's throw in the Kim Kardashian. Like sophisticated female operative. New People really to me as well. Greg was wooed as an American file. So he brought his American dream go home to New Zealand. When you marry you feel you really know them within a few months loosely head taken off to the US and none of us ever saw her again. I was living overseas in. All of this went down. I normally work at an Australian radio station helping other people tell stories now. I'm going to investigate the story of my arm. It was. It was so weird. Goot out of a mini. Explain this way this way and as I start digging through what happens doesn't even really cover local mafia witness. She wanted to cut murder or she got home. Innovated a hassle summit. They're gonNA kill me tonight Daddy. Under basically he's taken by these criminals got on chartered. Airplane parents pay for jet computer before the Mafia Gilder. God there's just so many questions how did it happen? Why did this American woman con my family? Why did you do this? How did she just get away? Oh Shit she's done it again. Who Else does this happen? Does the name Leslie Manoukian meaning to? Oh you bet ever forget her. This woman's a bit not what she claims to be. That was her allure. You just followed her. I don't think she ever thought she would actually get caught getting shadier and shadier when I got home. There was a bungalow Martinian and blow job. And I just didn't think about it scare you. This is your Karma and who really is Leslie. Manoukian like a part of me believes that she's just like all gamut of really broken person. You'll never really know what was real or not to find answers. I'll have to get past her big shot lawyer to the stars. Can you believe this jerk fucking has your lawyer? I'm starting to make threats. Also he's and I'm going to travel across the world to Trek Leslie down. What are we getting ourselves into back running standby? I'm only wards and I want you to come with me storm for the new season of unravel this time. Things really do get personal. Join me for Snowville okay. I subscribe to unravel essay. Abc's award-winning true crime. Podcast she's getting Annika wherever you hearing this now getting in a car. Dan or on the ABC then.
A Magical Weekend for the O'Brien's
"The BEPPO exchange more moisture bet more ways to win proud sponsors of the final furlong cast. The final Furlong Quad cast is brought to you in association with that the racist Dot com complete with race cards, stable tools and tips from our top team visit at the racist dot com racing's leading website today welcome along to what should be jam packed edition of the Final Furlong podcast image Kennedy, and I'm delighted to say alongside me is at the races and sky sports racing pundit. It's the return of temporaries finest Mr Derek's hello welcome back my friend. Welcome back. Are You well? Yes. All good. All goes recovering after A. Weekend of race and plenty to get stuck into and I'm also tonight to say that it is the return of the trio from the Cheltenham preview to get this right the Ascott Fair Final Furlan podcast Cheltenham preview night we a great crowd. It was lot of fun. Is that the last time we're all going to be able to perform in front of a crowd I don't know now they're saying they won't be till twenty, twenty, four better not say that too loudly are they'll pull this off I tunes but it's the return of fares just effort. Wow that was pre creative. Irish. Different. It was. It feels like he was seventeen years ago and yet it was seven months ago. It's insane. Like. Eight back in the old days just back in the old days we weren't there and it's the first time of missed the shems weekend for five years but it was still Berlin to build to watch it and we'll start with the race of the weekend. The Irish champion stakes were magical became only the second horse to win back to back Irish champion stakes politics hotshots, who is the First Dylan Swell. Done. Ritzy ten points to Ricky Dylan. Thomas also trained by Aidan. O'Brien magical gets the better of. Gay. Gaffe and Running a huge race back in third. Just what was the market like on the exchange? was there any in ruining madness and more? Importantly what was your take on the Irish champion stakes twenty twenty? Well well, it's. was of a say he was going to be very, very short guy at one point six four and there was not a bad thing proposition this race he was that dominate like he has done all season and. Magical the one who every season I feel like she runs well, well, you know you see turning up in these big races and then suddenly she produces this spectacle again and we're all that praising her that's fine. Fine there. She's just superb. And I thought. Fantastic ride. From Jamie, afternoon, he was kind of basically gifted this opportunity when more coaster ride Japan during the week. You. Know he she beats the world's best doubles fair and square. I really thought shame he got the tactics absolutely spawn. He didn't allow guy to stretch away from him too much, and he's always just close it off literally breathing down his neck with away and. They've overseas seen each other before and in the judgment international you remember. William was dictating with much more purpose and have much more control at the race. But. We trying to chase down does not what but playing him at his own game just about does and it did really well and south today and you could say that he may have gone to the well one too many times a season but I didn't think he ran to lay. Out of the season and don't forget, he's had to stint in Dubai earlier on the EH. I think he deserves a good break now. Maybe a freshen up. Obviously the champion stakes are ask I think is more likely than the all. But I reckon skipping and go straight to the Breeders Cup final. He seems like a WHO's. That would relish those kind of tight tons and batons and I just think given the best opportunity to win and then the season really well at a truck that Charlie appleby said would be ideal ideal for him. He's beatable. And I love to enable against him again now she's in the. Prime Point, but I think is very unlikely and probably unlikely for magical to. Love to see defending champion stakes crown skirt that we know that the cool team love genuine crock the Breeders Cup. So she was Jewish go there. Last year was lame just before the race. A they pull the plug on traveling. Mental she's meant to be a broodmare this season and is due to go to known and we talked about this at the beginning season. How you said you said she's in training and I thought she looked more. Why really made Chai they change their mind and you know hats off to the US. As he said, I will sit and Thomas Swim bought by our champion stakes and a great decision to keep her in training. And I asked the earlier today on twitter update our page because. Little. Detail what done the season takes up most of it and not fantastic family coming from. CASSANDRA. Go and halfway to have she's just sensational and Brilliant, brilliant performance on another superstar for Galileo as well. The interesting story about this is aiden was saying this to me L. Fair choose then I'm sure it's fine to say it's hopefully hopefully he won't come and kill me afterwards but the initially they decided all right aiden you can have her again next year and then they change their minds and went. With will retire her than they said again I don't know actually you can have retired or again and then no no no. Okay, you can have her so. They kept flip flopping and changing their minds, but it's paid off and to be fair. Okay. cokie. Coup more Hokey, cokey little bit like the Willie Mullins Bingo. It's paid off Stevens back to back wins in this race and. We're talking about are on on Thursday and I completely understand where Jane was coming from in that she'd taken on enabled five times and come up that really when she went into against the deep end, she was finding it tough. But on this occasion ritzy she's stepped up to the plate and fair and square she's once yeah she she has won fair and square it was It was an incredible performance in in in credit performance of just tall fitness and resilience and and an attitude really am. you know I think jess summed it fairly well, there was a good right from shame you can't go. The whole way around they went, they went to a fairly strong Gallup now. So I think you know whatever whatever you made of Avar Marine soft status they set off Their rooms are probably Orthodox downgrades. And Maybe Win loughrey thought. Look she. She's incredible I. I've never. I've never seen magical the way some people have You know like this kind of superstar mayor like I've never seen or that I think. She's Six or seven group ones now and I think. I think she's one the prices of two, two, nine, two, two, seven. Two two, five, ten to eleven even money something along those. She's one of ABC group. Bought she is eight and said that they thought he was this year I do think now she is getting to that kind of maybe not superstar ever but she she's claiming the ratings I think now for me, this is a career best for her She obviously turned around the form with from York and I think basically. York magical cheap blue cheer on a big Race Tab. But she looked cooked up that at the three far along Polish. She just didn't look like she was forty there. But. Again, she showed her toughness she you know she rally ensuing months to get second and that race obviously somehow that really really really tough race put her spot on for this really really tough race and I think basically. Has Probably done is don had three runs this year he never has an easy race I. Think he's probably taken I'd a slightly significant step backwards tonight same magical is improves little bit from York, and then when you combine the two does. To those ingredients I think it. Just it brought them much closer and I think just basically on the day magical proof that she was just tougher than Guy S. So yeah. No hats off tour. I'm. Cracking race to. Watch really. A once they jumped off and with Ryan riding Japan's like they're not going to use this Philly as a pacemaker game. I was like sheet like I don't see her in the superstar status that a lot of people did she's Going to be. Cloudy pacemaking for. I was like, well, are they doing? Look again, look I think even the way it was set up I do kind of. Japan is worth more to them. If he wins the race that magic, let's just the land unfortunately. I'm but look she she's she's toughed it out and she she's done that she's kind of she's done the hard way really I also think didn't she sit outside gats for other Asian he also probably traveled a little bit farther than than him. So yeah, look she's an incredibly tough mayor. For me, this is our career best effort. Now it's. Yeah. She's just she's ridiculous. Adowa down. Player to watch because. This is what you want as a thoroughbred. You know just that toughness that resilience that. That class that ability to to keep running top races at the top level saw yet know absolutely hats off to her she's an incredible Maher. Shame Heffernan was interviewed on or t racing beforehand shadow to the team but the way Berlin coverage over the weekend when you can't be there when the coverage is that good. It makes it somewhat easier fairplay to Jane Hueco and Ruby. Walsh. It brilliant job. Thank you for giving the final front has to plug in the show as well. Appreciate that. But not shaming was interviewed before by Brian Leeson and he had a wry smile and a raised eyebrow and he was surprisingly bullish and after the race he said I was the winner every step of the way we underestimated. Gaffe whatever you WANNA Say at York if she was Fisher that day I've no doubt. She'd have one. She's one of the best horses I've ever ridden. I'm not sure about that like. She's cheat the level that Goya threatened to the magical for me is not come even close and. I think that's you know maybe being a little. which which is understandable. She's been good mayor to me an a good mayor to to the team and shame he's obviously the ultimate team player Bosh. I couldn't really have dash magical is never wrong to the level at Goya's did that day ash. Your you know he he's beaten three lengths and he's being. Given three pounds so adulting degree with that Bush again. I. Don't want to downplay what what cheesed onto incredible Jamie biased never. What would you do with? With Gareth? No would you take the jets approach to aim for the Breeders Cup him a bit of breaking. Yet. When entre percent. While he around to a top class level, he was I. Think I just have a look here. Rick's ratings. Everybody, loves Rick Ratings. I'm doing that Nokia. Motion here with my nose goes out now and I had him run into one hundred, Twenty Six at York and one hundred, twenty year saw. What's that six pounds over over ten furlongs? What style with three or four months? Maybe something like that. Yeah I but any time to your question you I think he deserves a break now on on fresh we know audience fresh. All you would also go to to debris cope with a male i. don't think he'd get his ground Ash Ascott and Champions Day. It'd probably be too soft for him. And I think mating L. Just after the four hired runs the season. The Earth is probably gonNA accommodate but sue and. So yeah. I would go to keen and pretend the kind of the caveat with with Keeneland is Up Guaranteed to his ground area remember the last time the Breeders Cup at Keeneland was A. Beach. Golden. Golden. Horn. Beaten that night as well you know it can come up software. So you know maybe should they be I'd love to see him wing around. Shelton to be honest. You know at the international meeting there. I think that would be a fair site and also means means is a lot fresher. So yeah, we we'll see what what charity active being on the team do the British would be live and exclusive and sky sports racing. made the point about armory and sets us that you downgrade them in the sense that. Army was definitely very cleverly written by when Lord and just to stay on for a place in well done to them for doing that. In terms of Japan. What do you do with him? Ritzy. God I don't know I'm. A. I'm struggling I think I think aiden is Struggling to get to grips with Japan and and probably the whole family to be. MOGO could. He can't write this weekend when Japan let the family down. So I don't know look Japan on his day I have no doubt is a top horse. Bush. I just don't know you know He. He said to be a big kind of grow source and those horses are probably hired. The get fit may be hard to keep. Reuters where he looks we see we saw. The. Jordan. Month last year is a top-class Horsey Beast Crystal Ocean there may be that was the greatest renewable bossed sit around to a top class level, and then for me Iran to an even higher level in the arc on ground I didn't think he he would have enjoyed. But since. I T's just very hit and miss that the rolling Scott I think was clearly you know we need to get. In the in this again, what is a crazy season covert effect cove ninety ineffective season at sundown. He took a step forward again and then when he was going to the King George, against, the name loves the Royce he's got knowing. Fuses now, going into this race but then after that race turns Ltm, he came back. Lame. He'd very bad feet and then to be fair to him. AIDEN said they left shoes off nothing for ten days going After that, Ascott run. He's probably not being able to work hard so. What was it was he royce going into The champion near Champagne snakes the week and again, I don't know what? His profile now is just to hit and miss you know as a ponder especially you you combat Japan, with with any confidence spot, you know as a horse I do think we've seen off of him now to to to know that he is a top-class Horse Bush. Just got the consistency of of enable law those kind of a magical to be fair and you know it's that consistency as well as the top class ability that really makes these horses great and you know he doesn't he just doesn't have that. You gave a little CIDER. Yeah I just he seems to have agree with so many excuses come from him I, think the first Oscar on. Cases, but there's something needs never is not straightforward he doesn't seem to. Turn Up. Either tips up something's not quite right I know. The first time he d bumpers head in the stools that was an excuse. Oh, and then his. Feet and then but then Ron more shows is confidence behind him and I just think he must be doing something at home or is it Something it's do the connections. No he he's now got a Japanese owner. New Connections and they want to they want to do with this now. This season for studying feature. It's just not working out a tool whatever whatever way they go within. Just trying to think of an option further further afield outside of Europe for him why he could pick up. A race. Odd to his you know his mom when which was brilliant on his grumpy to Perry the three year old but it's It's a head scratching one. And icon icon album really now up to I didn't happen coming to today despite Ryan's confidence behind him. And he's to have a lot more now. Secret gesture was talented who was a bit of an Oddball Psoriatic? Newton was talented but incredibly frustrating and they're all relations. Or is accused. was. Just meant I think he was a bit mental is a psycho. He was so keen on all the time bought yet. We obviously at Lowe's the validity. So yeah, it is. It is a hard one. That's a tricky family to Kinda. Walk out on I don't know he's Kind of approaching it from a ponding perspective. You know he's just not a horse. You can back with any with any confidence and even just touching on what you know and looking at the market here he's done eight in the champion stakes, your champagne stakes a magical is gone ninety two. So you know. What I know it's You know looking at Marco. You would suggest that you know Ryan should have been writing magical but again I just want a you know Japan is worth more to these guys than magical and as a business proposition. That's probably why Roy was was right writing himself. I don't know it's he's he's a very frustrated north. It's. It's like it's like it's like watching. Ninety playing. To the end of his career. You're like Oh, my God you have all the ability in the world. You cannot put it together just get. That's what he's life. Get Out and go somewhere else. So, it might be he might be like the other one end up in Australia. Well. Yeah. Yeah. He he end up no stray but. He's he's probably done enough now to secure a role look to be given a chance at coolmore more for two or three seasons and Co he goes for show look he sees a crime pre departure you winner and he's He's a national winter like he's going to have a future. It's still it. It's just I. Think they're desperate to get another group one from him whether or not that's going to happen. I think we've wasted enough time Japan, and we still have to come to take. The interesting, the interesting in `Nigma that is Mogo in a few minutes as well. Final Word on this race about Ray is from our international correspondent Ivan Viewpoint. Could be. The water. In the shucks? Profound always profound. Ivan. He's always the right thing to say. When when does a top class horse who gets beaten? We can no longer believe Andrea now he believes. The pretend saint logistics live and sky sports racing and peas and carrots are still being cleaned up. You could just hear that. From Ricky as Berkshire Rocco thirty-three to one tip on the at the races site for Ixi and on Sky sports racing. Mailed by Tom Marquand and Joseph O'Brien. Roy Napa should at for Galileo. Chrome. So well done rory, the betting reaction for the St Leger on the bed for exchange jess and your thoughts on the oldest classic in the world. Well racy moved market thirty three to one when he tipped up. Seventeen industry price put five on the exchange. So there we go. That was me no absolutely old tech convicts his money. What's worse? He blowtorch forty, two Waterman, the decks came out again. No. French. Smoke Christmas Christmas. SONGS ON A. Entire boy. One. Ricken hit the high notes, their country. I said I've NIP Hubertus that's. Probably. Song came on just as they crossed the night and it would have been perfect. Yeah. I literally haven't shown Amr or that the TV for thirty five dogs I fell to my knees I was. Sick can somebody who has the skills do a meme please please do a mean or Gif challenge order of this race, and then of someone falling to their knees with that song and Rick Mixed in that would somebody falling to their knees voice that would be absolutely brilliant. We'll give you a mortgage. Jess. is into this show Shankar. Exemption. Joe. On his knees in the Piston rain. Tim Robbins folding. Anyway. Sorry just so Wrenching. For, betting running, he was one point seven and running as well. And and gala chrome the the winner on the day was seventies in writing and so which is insane. I think actually there was a point seventy, seven zero asked. Yeah I think is about three phones from home way actually, they will suddenly in the line I think. Paul. Driver BELCO. Santiago. The Hukou all going as well as each other and then. She got it low crime of all of them was probably the one that wasn't going going as best I. Think. Filling up his glass of coke and not use bathroom for those of you who are wondering. On Mir. Jesus Christ Last War God Almighty. Please proceed. Exceed. During. Just so I've got to. What what, what are we? What are we saying? Essentially the oldest Cossack. For doesn't that US down tons of drama anyway. And? Said Ghalia crime hit six nine to one and running you run a five point one five is. Being I think rexy put out a tweet saying he's being he actually is Galileo. And it was. The whole story was fascinating. With everything that happened with toll dish Shane? Cross. We. Joseph O'Brien stable jockeys van. He's ridden this horse every time he's on. In here, and he had his first winner two years ago, and he had this state led to ride in it's in his palm of his hands. Unfortunately unable to ride to positive covid nineteen test. See what? Guys shot his nineteenth birthday but Tomar Qand was so adequate number when he when he went past the posts and gave all over and said brilliant and so sorry that he wasn't able to ride but a kind of mental twist of fate anyway the fact that tomorrow and was. But to ride after all the WHO are in drama in being shocked off English king in the Darby now, fourteenth reverse and he wins the oldest classic. So op see delighted for tomorrow Qand. been some. season. To him. But you know in terms of this horse. He's just gone. He's gone from leaps and bounds to win the Saint Leger. But it was a funny race in terms of how it panned out I think mythical and subjective is taking each other on pretty strongly run race and you could see early Paul drive. It was really keen to get on with things difficult for Jockey Martin Dwyer, and the trip was the big question mark for him and he had to ride to make sure that he could. He was going. He was going to stay the trip. The one two, three Wolfgang Puck to together field and the other said about three thousand from her a written down here. That's when. Chrome was probably just. Tacoma's just going a little bit more Zebra in the saddle. I'm trying to get him to keep going keep them interested and there was lots of trance says between. Rick Selection Boxer Rockers Santiago Hook. And Paul. Practice ground by wondering the track a little bit. But I think layer chrome he battles and battles, and this clearly probably is the minimum trippy alike to be our he wanted property malls. Next year. And I think. We might be seeing him in the Big Cup races and that's what they were saying afterwards huge story big win for Australia the Cya he's having a coming of age season. Just. You've made a mistake there and you never make mistakes. He's by Gallileo out of California cromer. Lately and it makes makes no sense Australia out of curious mind densely mayor. Why is he called Galileo Chrome? Clause everyone remembers it makes its idea is a very good pr tactic I think no one remembers the silly funny names you know God la Chrome. Australia's curious Australia. Something actually make sense anyway he is. And I think you're right it's IT'S GONNA. Be It's GonNa be, Cup races for him next season Joseph. O'Brien wins yet another big race. We should say Bedford Brandon Ambassador Joseph Run who's just been been crushing it. He's season overall. Jeff has just been fantastic. Phenomenal this weekend for him and his family was outstanding. Took about the younger who? This was a brilliant brilliant win and. Look I, think that he'll go on to be a really great horse next even better. We'll say season because he's only just get go only just getting going. It seems. That this was a really good training fullness from. Yes. A brilliant trainer he's just. Everything's touching at the moment is turning. Turning to gold only doniger could spoil his weekend which Shale but we'll come to that race a little bit later on. Look, this was a fantastic race got badly wrong ritzy. I was very, very confident, overconfident, but Santiago and coming down. Civ Two furlongs out I thought Oh he's GonNa win You're going to have a lot to say about this because first of all, you've been nailed on the line. Sorry to remind you about that piledriver you thought should have gone to France either for the Grand Prix debris, you're straight to the I agree with you and I think that ultimately stamina has given way for him on Galileo Chrome looks like crazy horse of the future it away moment and look. It was another absolutely sensation erase when you had all those lights up. All three dogs from home. You are you you're in for an absolute belter. Going into the race while. The Saturday night before there was a lot of money. I think that Joseph and his team must made the decision to Saturday four at that Galileo crumbs going wrong because I think he was twenty or twenty, five's. In the bedding and then he was. I. Think he was back into about eight or nine at the time. So I don't think they. They've made the decision and I was looking at gone killer. These losers back can Gallup curl he's got no chance. The horse he got to be. Doing so Kind. Of. Went into the race really is A. kind of a real known kind of prospect. I talk a bit to find. Don Ratings. Just. Kind of wondered. If he had one more run that would have just brought him along broad his level higher. I thought he would have be interested in. So I couldn't have at the price, but it just goes to show you. Joseph's call and the owners called. It was absolutely spot on he is. He's a lovely horse, the race nicely, just lobbed allow. I don't think a stronger Gallup would be any issue to him. I wouldn't. He's got to improve again but he's A. Huge because I think he can you know I wouldn't be ruined it out maybe King George with him just yes. Looking back at. The sectionals with him. He, he obviously ran the day SISK in one there. The Tooth Irish two thousand guineas. Analysis can now obviously had. A We all remember that the trouble passage that he had through. That day you know it took my wife to get out and the guineas was a slightly strong. Well, it was a strongly run race, but they just thought it was interesting I from thirty of the guineas that day. Carrying, nine stone to Cisco Clock Turkey five point one home now obviously, could it be a quite a bit faster if you know if you've got a straight run. From three home, the Galileo chrome clocked Turkey four point as so point three of a second quicker carrying two pounds more. Two furlongs more, but they did they didn't go to quick that day and Galileo cordray Spa. He. He's obviously blessed where he's got pace this horse. So it'd be interesting. I wouldn't rule oush kind of maybe being the King George Horse just. Another another. Another winter under his back, he could get stronger again. Put on a bit of Muslim muscle equates to to speed. So we'll see. It'll be interesting to see what your. And his team to do with them. Ball Yeah. Boxer Rocco Run an absolutely cracking. I love this horse he's he's just so honest and straightforward travels well. got a real. He caught in action and that kind of the main reason why I thought it was a chance that he could reverse forum with Santiago is just when they clashed the Queen's Vase Roy Ascott the ground was property soft and this guy is a real daisy cutter. I don't think the ground. If if if he ran on firm ground I think he'd really enjoy it so. It was great to see him run the racist was piledriver. Martin Dwyer might want that the right back and just under can it's easy say no, it wasn't bad right by any stretch of the imagination, but he was the one horse who? The trip. I think of all the market leaders he was. and Martin kind of challenged on the left hand side of the main pack and I just thought he gives them the the headwinds. He saw daylight too early. Thought he should have been very should have been brave and maybe tracked Frankie on Santiago and just you know he knows he knows it the horsemen to state. He would have had the gear citic quick pass these horses, and also if I think the wind that was at. They stay it was kind of a headwind absolutely. So if you were. At the back of the main pack on the right hand side getting cover eighteen. If that make sense if you can kind of visualize that I, think you were sheltered from the elements, they are better than everyone and I taught he should've just challenged on the right hand side as opposed to the left hand side but look the hosted make it easier for me either he went behind. You know. Maybe I know he did win on firm ground asked at sales break. As a two year old. Boss he's big horsey stronger. Now I do wonder was the ground BEC- too quick firm as well. But look he's running absolutely cracking race but east I think he on the figures given him I think he's probably about seven or. Seven or eight pounds below what he did degrade voltage are and what I don't think you could say he didn't stay categorically. I think categorically, you can simply say that he's Is just not as effective over this trip as he's over twelve sharks agree with that at one hundred percents agree with that in terms of got a little chrome. Joseph. Ryan spoken to the racist DOT COM today. He says that no decision is made for his next start He's in plenty of races. We'll take our time with them for those races that he's not injured in. We can always supplement. So all options are open for forum and the perceived wisdom after the race, and indeed I said it with Jess was cup races for next season both I wrote that view and that seems to be the general opinion. So it's fascinating to your you rick see say. You would very much keep in mind the King George and ask for next season that middle distances might be more his thing. Well, yeah look. We all know it looks like enable it's going to be off the seem so. So at that's one superstar on maybe logistician is going to be there to harsh suit. You'd look at now we're GONNA win next year's King George. But I think legit Ron until one, hundred, Seventeen, win the ledger last year and Berkshire Rocco thing maybe run into about done property but I'm thinking about one fourteen. So it's not like he's got a mountain to climb with him. He's a big powerful horse. He's he's going to get better and you could get quicker. So. We'll see how it goes. I'm wanting I want to mention with a Galileo crow like he wouldn't quit ground doncaster and you would on very soft ground navin. It's very rare. You get a horse ou can be as good on both kind of. Grounds at opposite ends of the scale. So you know could could I see this harsh strong well in soft ground King George next year where they were strong out of absolutely does he need to improve absolutely but you know These horses can change over over the winter and you know. We're all on a bit of a guest. Absolutely be interesting to see watchos. Do with him and how he does change. We don't know what's going to happen Stradivari. He may or may not still be in training next year maybe they're going to come back for another tilt at the Gold Cup maybe not so all options. Short. He'll surely be back. Won't you'd like to think. So for history there you'd like you'd like to think they're going to try and. So I don't see what the point of keeping training for three would be if you're not gonna go for four but exactly maybe we're being greedy there. That's the St Leger fascinating renewal the ARC trial. Let's start with mogul Jomon grumpy to Perry was one last year by Japan for the third successive year. A has wanted this time which Japan's brother Mogul I was blown away by this. To be fair to Aden. He said on Tuesday that mogul has been making a fool out of them. But that they think that they were finally getting the better of him where they clearly have ricky as your old boss delivers them to go and win a group one and Pierre Charles Budo was brave came up inside that hometown knowledge was clearly beneficial. He gave him a piece of a ride and he was singing his praises afterwards and kind of before we talking about the horse. I think we're getting to a stage with Budo and I know he's only he's writing and France Ball. He is a series lease seriously legit jockey you know when are. When are the big operations? I don't know his exact circumstances in France and rights, top trainers and top owners day you know. This is a jockey I thinks. Should be potentially looking at. Or Orange stupid could alternate shoop. Although. They've got kind of younger guys and Buick and doyle the airport. This is seriously legit. He's a jockey and. The horse by and you know we're getting to the stage now where You know. A big retainer job. We don't know what's going on in all these operations. What he's, he's first jockey to basically. He he's he's I two, hundred five and Miguel Barcelona has the Godolphin job in fronts but. Obviously Charlie appleby hasn't necessarily taken that option. He's brought over James Oil, for example for Pinatubo, but he is on the. Top Man. The only problem with that is that other doesn't necessarily have the strength depth that he wants had. Exactly, yeah. That's exactly then throbs obviously a great mentor to ride for you know. Everybody knows what you're. A. World Class trainer years. And also, you know there's obviously the thing with. The General Conference chose population you know they just haven't been as. Go over the last five or six years for whatever reason maybe Kinda, the stallions are sounded in France. There's no Galileo over there although the they've just lost wooden. They do have you and Lahar. They're they're not on the same scale as you know obviously. Counseling. tobacco. All I'm saying. What I'm trying to say is you know and most people would agree and it's pretty obvious. Do Produce just matsch he is. He's a world-class shocking is again I? He did give yeah, he is. He's very good. He did give all. Destroy. But I would just say I think literally everything went right mogul in this race he was said at the back of our very strong Gallup. He scraped paints a hallway around Budo. Got All the brakes. As well as As as the race went for. It could have very easily turned into a nightmare everything just just stayed off the range from somebody's. Book. Yet the arsenal I need to after after after being cited, it was a good performance where. Jockey boss no whether. Assume. These Are probably about seven or eight pounds shy ocular INDE-. LUMPS TO BE. Honest. Let's he put it all together. and. He wouldn't very convincing. What did you make just? A man was surprised to see him do what he did. It was it was a fascinating renewal really with up and time being Dhabi winner. I. I'm saying in since his victory and we talked before we start we went on how? Hours. Different tactics. Which kinda surprised to say oversee he's always set the pace and going hard upfront and he was just sort of. In the rail and had sort of following Nobel Prize who sat frenetic pace, which really suits mogul down to the ground. So it was written just see him perfectly but not so much for Serpentine. As Tells, Buddha he knows how to ride. Probably long-term so while. And Jamie Lynch made some really good analysis of this race on Sky sports racing yesterday about how the first three I think all came from off the pace and that's how you erase site this. But he he showed real guests to pick up down the rail and win decisively. And look sometime. Interesting raised not just as easy like spear on Nice and Handy he came why full He. He kinda briefly picked up in the posing sages in hair to sort of a sea of horses picking up around him, which sort of spotted them up a bit. If you re watch again again but he didn't disappear into the bat like English kingdom you just bought an absolute shocker. A. Touch of an experience to me. He's still quite likely. Ray Serpentine. Probably, learn a law ill. Wonder. What they'll t with him next he's He's twenty two, the ARC. Mogul we were saying whether they'll actually take him to the kind of putting a bit of cold water on he's twelve to one. For for in October. But. It sounds like they wanted to step back in trip stepping back. So the my way. But it was. It was it was fascinating because it's The Times was very fast. the three year old to fall quick than eldest boy think I write down head eight point five seconds slower. The Prix Foy was to the Grand Prix Depari time starts that you had before hundred. Give us those because they're mind blowing. Yet. So this race. Mogul one was quicker. All same as quick is only two other arc winners which was being puncher celebre on daydream. So I mean I know it's different. Time of year, site falls to ground different. The as that is insane. So it was very quick. What he he produced was very good and very quick, but I'm. Still not convinced not sure why perhaps I wasn't really expecting and I do think it was just a well time judge race right by pitchers Budo. A. And the fact that they're not against the experts pointing considering Saddam trial. I can see it though I can I can understand the current thinking seems to be unbear- mind. This can all be subject to change to be fair but the current thinking from the coolmore team apparently is they wanna send mogul to either the champion stakes at ascot where he'd be loving sky sports racing or they're gonNA, send them to Australia. that's the the current line of thinking and Serpentine is due to go for the ARC, and apparently Kristof Simione was very pleased with them. Aden we didn't talk about on Tuesday. There was a reason for that. They just they just weren't hot on them. Basically, he needed their own and I thought he made that pretty clear in in other pieces that he'd done. So I decided to focus on horses that looked to have genuine Johnson to be fair to eight and talk to mogul in a big way and I wasn't expecting him to do this, but it was expecting to run well. As for Serpentine I would imagine he will return to more forceful tactics next time out, and this run will bring him on an awful lot whether or not. He can ever produce what he did in the Darby again remains to be seen but. He does look to go for the ARC whereas mogul. It seems as though is going ahead for the champion stakes and sky sports racing or down to. He. He's going to be in there. Maybe nine enabled early by the sounds of it potentially. I just don't think I just don't think he's going to win the. See. It's the falling apart a little bit. ooh, massively massively orebro counselor elaborate please. Myself May both either I'm just looking at it now a couple of weeks ago. Yes. Stratovarius thing Talking to him in there, but you know not not this is not he's not GonNa win it as. He. Doesn't want not trip at all. I think There was a point during the festival where the Ark was going to be so exciting and then they basically ruled out for. A. Start various, not really showing that he's made for it yesterday. The lights and mogul who isn't going to run? And then you just left with love enable magical. So. It's a an the next down there. So Sas who was sixteen to one. It wasn't good enough. you've got the French horse. Rabbi. Never pronounce that right WHO's fourteen? Who Don't think will be good enough for the for the English national says. So it's Just, slightly disappointing sudden I take it back. You make a good point. You've probably given us the truck to they're probably it's probably going to be all about the girls. It'll be enable magical love in whatever order you want A. Healthy. Day Right. Here judge. Pseudo. Teddy cost thirty three's and when the Huey Marceline. By. The way speaking of left field mentions Ed Walker was on sky sports racing Thursday morning where he said that very hopeful of a big run from English king where he could be able to demonstrate that is the best middle distance three year old in Europe. Jesus Christ. Give. It up. Man Given up. No He. He he was right lost. The didn't run as race for whatever. That's the second. Time. He's been beaten my mobile. Ah here. Yeah but he did he didn't run his race whatever whatever he didn't see hit on I'm sure that it'd be some kind of problem found with him or or each he just had a bad day at the office he he did he didn't run as race no way like. See but yeah, it's interesting I think and talking. Mogi. Keeps describe it and physically said physically he's like a miler. Obviously aid suggesting speed. I don't know is this kind of cruel more Of High. Pedigree kind of chess. In in in in what we've seen in what I seen them in the Gordon stakes and especially what we saw of him. On Sunday, this horse looks a proper twelve horses. No I just I'm not sure he loved case to drop down to tend to be on the cool more hypo horse for stallion prospects never never happen. Let's not forget by the way the Roy Moore was saying last year the Japan barely stays in mile for and is really long. Maybe not. We'll switch to leopardstown because I want to bring in a final Furlan podcast star and a cameo performance from the stable that is lit up the season. and. A, man who was celebrating Lucky scored the winning goal in the Final Caroline Marta your dad had it right off all season and right off over the weekend and to be fair to you you told is all. Matron stakes. The dream is alive. And I stupidly wind and backed fancy? Blue. How is the Marta stable after the big weekend? We're. Still. Can't get over it is Bernie and it was after grading say Britain regain. The horses around the races like you're. Just to into group one just talked off a really great year for all of the show. Is Fascinating Mirror in her own right and there's a great backstory tours. Well, in the sense that she failed the vet she was picked up for relatively cheap money considering she's a flat. And she's owned by a syndicate. This is normally the story of of a national hunters particularly when she's one of the galway festival and Johnny was saying to Nick Look yesterday on Sunday that he he stopped off to to wear the owners were. To Go, and meet up with them and give them the trophy and they were saying this is the best day of their lives. Yeah it was great. They all organized to upgrade together. They're all and like the has a big crew with them. So they said it was just the day like it would have been brought into core race and. The track and you know the whole reactions and everything would have been great look. We have this deal with cards you dealt with Jeff Noah's Great Authority binders. Unbelievable. I remember the day dot daughter. 'cause he. He always would send it on line look at the pages would've off. So when she came in Roy she they all go on our hope and partake pre-trains and broken and everything went into her, and like she's not going to be the location you he is like a little heart shaped. Black thought on her backside. Of there's just like. A small like never blow you away in the morning kind of Sosa in the Gallup and you know wouldn't be like she obviously, she sales back off the printed. Move dried extravagance like you gotta just goes under the radar in the I I. Didn't really. She certainly didn't and she's done it the hard way as well because she's she had to come from off the pace. It was a brilliant right from Colin Keen Johnny Murtagh Esque from from Colin Keen. But there's an added little bonus here in the sense that you've got a classic winner infancy blew a classic winner and peaceful, and she's getting up to beat them and beat them comfortably and not only is this is Berlin for the yard but now you can dream about more success to come. Yeah exactly. Right calling gave her was the group one, right It's almost confidence and that's that's the way she just before and make she was so adamant to finish I thought she came round like we were starting on. No. If at all in the you know for aid. And then we just see shoppers like Roy on the outside. Is there like a resist one of those as I know we weren't raised. All here, all The suit on it was totally risk. Great. Great. What does it mean to to the mercy yard because obviously it's been a fantastic season but johnny was was doing feature Johnny. Ward for champions weekend building up to this and he was talking about the how important the whole weekend is. So it it's been a brilliant season in terms of winners and in terms of success. But what does it mean to get a group one on the board and to win on arguably the biggest day in Irish flat racing? Crazy I like I'm so involved at home and I see new work that goes in and like up every morning and season horses, seats, everything Mornin amenities and a half nine. Just routine and the whole time, and I just see like the hard work that goes in. So I'd like if you like for me I got out of a winner and Saigo or anything Joe, for the because you just see the. That was a target but like. I, agree with when I just I'm Cougar. So used to that went in those graces of the jockey when wearing like it was kind of we didn't take any heaters because we'd no back backstory on the horse like we never knew how but like now. Like we. We see her every morning. Did you know it is just we're just so much more involved. Everyone is just like this just such a good team at home. That everyone is you get kicked out of nearly everyone having a kick out of it like you go into the identity. Before the runners race and and everyone was still. Posing the unlike even one day more in there we were just it was just it was just like. It's a different. It's a different experience to have your dad as a jockey and having a trainer because he like you're just so much more all for someone like me who just genuinely loves horses. It's only I'm looking forward to having your dad on the show towards the end of the flat season I really enjoyed working with them on on the races. He's. He's got a brilliant mind for racing, but I love the line that he had for. For Brian Gleeson on not racing which was. I, want this talk of me being a group on Jockey to stop I'M A groupon trainer now And rightly so. Yes. I, know 'cause I see like for me I'd be like he's been and. Longer than he's the jockey, but everyone remembers all the big named horses, a big name rights and. He started off. That's what like it's a change, your career. and. He like my dad most competitive person who's in the whole world like he won't. Stop words and he's got to the during he is the talk with the train. and. That's just the way he's going to be in your hopefully now. You've got to. He's got to fight her group one winner and it's nothing to stop them the plenty more tacoma hopefully with the help of. Jesse of the honor of working with Caroline pretty much every day in this day and age and the world. So given the fact that it's the first time you're both on the podcast together many questions for Carlin. I. Case talks. This thing to have because then I message message just off the race those go to rail God i Just Send Me Back Crying Early evasive because we're like little work family and we every we'd be working from home and I'm in London Kearns in Ireland. So we couldn't be seat the every week we're always as a team Austin Caroline. What is Johnny? Johnny how this week? What do you? What do you have every week is just being another winter another run and we always following them and it's been the most sensational season and it's no fleet. Toll Johnny Mater is group one. Close Traina and he will continue to be so I think I don't know how many horses are there in the at the moment caroline. Fifty five beat up about this time next year I'm. Going to get onto the old boss John magner and under the and and get them to send a few over he's winning with everything else he moves. We'll start looking for them I. he doesn't need any. Take. All right without. In. Terms of celebrating Carolina in this ridiculous covert world, the fact that you couldn't be day on truck was that was that tough? Not to be there with Orleans Johnny. For it and look. We I four brothers and sisters, and we are all together and it was just like it was great. Says like just have to watch it and. I know they say like I would have been just spreading track I suppose from the owners like it would have been brilliant reaction like they're so involved there's supposed to go more sports the died like they come in year and year by year lanes and like its sister dreams rating during by the it either the stories the here and yet. Like. This could be the one. You know what I mean like you just eat during this kind of stuff. And then I actually happen. And it's been your feeling that you picked out the sales you, Bro. I it's just Austin unbelievable especially for the owners they're so good and like I think because even died when over after the inside and like it didn't matter if you're at the tracker. The same I think and it was the plan for a long time. So when a plan comes together, you gotTa, love it. Caroline I hope that Johnny's in good form. Give him a hug for as if possible I suppose you can because you know your daughters. So that's fine. Getting social distancing issues there or if if that's not appropriate, give him a high for his. Until him. Congratulations. Delighted. Delighted for you. Carolina's all because you were so excited for Irish champions weekend on Monday show. So to to get the big win is absolutely brilliant, and then of course you and win the handicap by fifteen links as well. So. Stuff and enjoy the week you should be floating on air for the rest of it. I know we will. Thank. So take our caroline which it soon of the pod. Carolyn Marta with a cameo appearance very kindly coming on to talk about it I love the celebration as well. Just, burn from Johnny and from, and then the next day Janis running around like he scored the Gold Cup final as well, which was just brilliant in terms of the race itself. This was a strong race on paper. It's it's possibly a case of that the tour season behind our middle distance horses going forward but you can't take anything away from the winner. Oh absolutely I, what an improved. I think she reasonable eighty-six. It'll be in the season's something. Outrageous. And she's come along and put to bed A. French. French oaks winner in fancy blue and. Peaceful. He was. What was she? Yeah ours one thousand Guineas winner. Sorry. Thank you. So look she's and she's done at unsquashed. There was no fluke about the ATL. I think we said it well, self initiative to do it the hard way. These affiliates behind who you know that they're gonNA keep improving that there's a lot of. Light to hope and you see the lights magical enable what they're doing as Oldham as that these phillies continue our next season. We see more than because they are tasked game all the right horses behind her and peaceful and finally blue. No. APPS. City cracker. Karen Fallen on board for his retain now retained owners. So she'll keep improving as well. But yeah brilliant brilliant. Brilliant race and. Just just so delighted for that team, they really deserve a weekend which was dominated by eight Brian. While to to group one winners, but the other group one winners came from joining A. And I think Kevin Brian Oversee had one. It was otherwise dominated by the Brian all the O'Brien Family should I say? So, yeah, superb. Absolutely in terms of the to coolmore horses Ricky as we talk about those. Peaceful eight minutes set on Tuesdays podcasts that she was going to need this run that she was just about ready to start back and fancy blue given. The fact that she's out of full full brother to high chaparrals in Chechnya, Cova and by deep impact. Both of these sources are probably going to middle distance going forward. So something like the predates opera or the the mayor's phillies marriage champions race on champions day is going to be more they're not. Yeah absolutely. No doubt. Atoll taught Jamie did wealthy a peaceful. Into, a good position from from her role in Lebanon and she she's run very well she may be used a little bit of Patrick getting there. So. Then kind of on top of that chasing the galloping and Aidan saying that she she's going to improve. She was ready to start back I think this goes sailing is. Just down in my nose stale. Goes Down is a great autumn star. So you know she could maybe go to France and the Breeders Cup maybe at the end of the season then she'll be a big player they're. Fewer a backer of fancy blue I'm afraid you knew your fate after maybe ten ten seconds there. She she lost the race at the at the gates. She was far too slow away. Roy Moore was fighting fighting from the start. To be fair. She's she actually run very well. She didn't shape like like a miler really at the drop down and trip didn't do her any good. Ryan the revs open her a good half mile from home. which probably meant by the time they got to the line she brand little bit efficiently and she was white for s as well. Soul I. Talk She under the circumstances she she's very well. and. Peaceful Infancy blue the. Whatever can can hold her form Baragoi and into the the alternate, the two of them will. Be Major players. I think that'd be major players and race is. Not The Arab and all other people probably fancy in fancy blue for the air or just turned off I don king. She's got an often what we see. She's obviously very good. Just you know enable. Law Out there they're just in that in a League of their own at the moment what are yet for that the pre pre the locker that those two especially if the ground is good, not too soft, they're going to be major players. Against you so the three times now, this season I wonder will they split them now? who decide to split them and let one go to the. One goto the phillies mirrors champions race. On champion State Ascott it would make sense we'll have to wait and see how it plays out Shamsa Lisa. She could go for the sun chariot she's not entered but Johnny's talked about supplementing are and why not why not it's a free roll of the dice he's now on nine hundred, sixty, five, thousand euro. Of. Prize money for this season. Fantastic to great story that with the with the Syndicate Berlin. You know that that's it's stories like this of not seen these owners on the track celebrate in this, which is such a massive loss rates. Would it be unbelievable scenes to see them lose their mind in the parade ring after? In and we figured I. Thought it was some performance now. She didn't have quick and option two three and she was wide swing it into the Straits saw she's got serious years this video. If you remember when she wouldn't go away she was Kinda similar obviously in a much lesser race but they're the ability she showed to pick up and quicken with what was was was very, very impressive. So. It'd be great if they may be if they go to the cope with our but I think she's probably maybe one for that. Johnny was saying as a pros there the Mayor Tar, which is over over ten charm. Long spot yeah. It was a very good race and a bar stay win for for calling keen as well. Twenty years since Johnny Mercer Island Bridges Mile Maybe maybe it's written in the stars may be why not? They may as well go for it and that's her qualified for as well because it's a winning you're in race for the Breeders Cup so off she goes and the dream she's qualified for it. She qualified for the Philly Mayor, which is ten furlong. Yes. She's qualified to the mayor if she wins or places I think another group one she's in the Mile I. think that's works I think I'm willing to be corrected on that. It wouldn't be the first time I've got something wrong and it sure won't be the last Let's sweep up the arbitrage very briefly So don't world gets a group on on the day along show with Tar WanNa beating Arabia. Let's go with that pronunciation. Jess, you're as good as mine. Anthony Van dyck comes some pretty long layoff. To beat Stradivarius in the Guitar Prix Foy and he becomes the first Darby winner to win a subsequent race for four years. I know that there are forces who've been injured a no. That wings of Eagles got an injury. I know that my saga injury that's still a damning statistic anyway. I was impressed with Anthony Van dyck. Slightly disappointed with Stradivarius. We briefly talked about him already with a view to the ARC. And these horses Tar WanNa Rabiya Anthony Van dyck instead of areas. How do you rate their Chances Jess Well, I don't rate Stratovarius Ounces I. Think it's admirable. Decision. To aim the pre triumph and I understand why's and everything else. So why not? But he clearly needs further than this trip and he was doing everything is always best what as he always does he doesn't help the kids to be winning over one awful Close I. Think if you had one even if it was, you know by by by head or whatever. People would be making more of it. But you know honestly, Vandyke wins his first race. The Darby. He obviously, he had his ground conditions yesterday, which really helped him onto Van Dyke. And you know. I'm not. I won't be mad on him in the. Just looking in here now, he's not actually. Not In the betting I, think if anything something like again, the Breeders Cup would be right for him. He ran a good race in last year. As you said, as Rick said at the top of the show, you know that ground can get really nasty. The tougher came into the time of year and I think he wants the ground quicker. So might go further afield and he could goat he could go somewhere like shot ten. A shot soon as punio since still won't go the ARC I think he needs to be bottomless for it to really help him. Look he didn't come dot for winning yesterday, but it's still not enough to prove himself as a leading. Contender in my is the phillies were really interesting. I thought damnit wells really. A fantastic race brilliant. Brilliant. Win An to noah. She's seriously impressive and she'd beaten Cayenne pepper the time before and cheese oversee frank bat form. So. This is a fairly he's probably going to bed under the radar a little bit better. And I don't know how strong that race was. Re Abaya is actually. Fourteen to one for the for the ARC. had been running pretty had won the time before in Deauville but not nothing spectacular. So it's it's of practitioner form. So I wouldn't be taking either her tunnel perhaps. Even, though she is, she's sixteen to one for the ARC whether she'll definitely be going there. But she's going places anyway. And shoot could improve again and I hope stays in training next year I've see I'm reading here that says connections have entered the pre law. It's possible. She'll go elsewhere with American Japan mentioned as alternatives. As we start again, everyone's avoiding the ARC. Yep NAPLE normally the race that everybody wants to compete and win and this year the role trying to avoid it like the play ache Ricky, in terms of wrapping up these these trials, who would you pick from the sources as potential bed or any of them? Now I find it very hard to to to put up any them as a potential but I think tire now will will likely go to their predate opera. She is a hugely likeable and I'll tell you what she wasn't half punted yesterday. There were serious money around for. The World Team. Clearly knew that she was in good order. With. Regards. To be fair to. I've never got the whole Rabiu like she was a short ten to one for the. Number of her form suggests the dash she was ever that going so. I don't know was that just people backing off what John Claude rouget was saying he was he was extremely keen on her unease opposite top-class trainer. I didn't see to be I don't. I'm not sure she ran her race Rabih here. I didn't like she traveled early she just never she she. Was a Christian. dimuro. That was Roy. Yeah Duck I just don't think he ever looked happy. So adult what we have to have a off day. She even run to me maybe like potentially she could be in seasonally she she was just Sola lethargic. Early in kind of in the middle of the race. and. Then she kinda she got role in a bit later could even connect. She came home she came home well enough to be fair for maybe a little bit of our. Disadvantage position. You know I think it's hard to see our wind on the back of this Anthony Van Dyke. was. Given a good Roy Meka. Barcelona. Balanced. them out there. But the the the forty was really an absolutely Farsi control. They they went. They went they went no galloping Anthony Van Dyke to me is a very strong stay are over twelve far lungs who wants very quick ground and a strong gallic. and he still managed to be Stratovarius. In an a very slow run race on fast ground. You know just dot again that's. A. Bit of a catch twenty, two with various in this race. I, think we because it looks like it sounds like he still goal for the AC. It. On one hand he's had he's had a raw over the trip to sharpen a mock and he's not had the higher race because it's basically turned into three far long sprints. So you don't want, he's not going to go on the feeling sheetings. Or you know kind of. Having with the race having left America on the other hunts. Deformed just doesn't look old enough to me. and. Even though. I was actually hoping they'd run them the. Ledger this weekend but they they chose to go elsewhere and. Wasn't some ways it paid off. I think of Anthony. Van. dyck. Went for that your Schneider maybe i. know the ground maybe wasn't as quick as you want he probably would have wonders and that's another another group wouldn't on the CV but then again Ledger now. Is just you know commercial breeders looks like you know they just don't want anything to do with this and he's Fast ground I think is is key to him and You van Dyke and you might get keeneland the breeders caulk. He will get the chat in chat in I. think that track is probably a little bit too sharp for Butch. Probably seeing. If. He was to go anywhere go to any. He's also in the debris our in their Melbourne cop which which I. Don't old. Carpenters Australian handicapper hell on ours has he given this horse top wage ahead of the likes of magical and whatever what the hell is that above. Idea what he's seeing. And Deitz a good. You know he's probably a bit of a run of the mill kind of. Maybe one, fifteen, one, sixteen, you say rolling the. Of View Yeah. Yeah. Yeah exactly. It's it's. Silly statement. A have him potentially carrying more weight than the likes of a magical in Melbourne copy is John I have no idea what form drake highlanders looking at there with him so But yeah in wrapping up I, don't think any of those trials you know I don't think enable Orlov if if they were watching the races. With a few skew. On Sunday there well I don't think they'll be losing any sleep and what we've seen high doubted we'll touch on tiger and a few minutes in terms of Melbourne Cup I think the Cox Plate is another option for Anthony Van dyck potentially but we'll see we'll see what they do within The group on double was completed search for song who wins back to back calmer group. International. Irish saint, Leger showed Jane Mangan for keeping the faith with search for song nine to one when she put her up and she was a bloody good winner brilliant ride from ocean or visit different to last year's right in the race win. Chris. As was on board and it was a case of just having to hold on cling on for dear life because she went off like like a a complete. bonkers. Raceourse last year and somehow managed to cling on from Q. Gardens. But this this was a really really good performance and credit to Dermott well because he's built or up slowly he's now level with Vincent O'Brien in terms of the record number of wins in this race and this was a brilliant performance to be Jessica. Yeah. One of the six group when when it's too low and Magical. The day before he went back to back ours champion stakes his bike Arce signature. And I forced to do so I've actually written this down. So I didn't I can't remember the last one, but this one written down I to do. So since many row. I can the early two thousands. Legend now is, and whether she is up to that legendary I'm not sure but. Brilliant brilliant success again. So I win the season. And you know. Could be not as competitive as last year renewal when she had the lights of q gardens and cross counter bind. But she had an improved with the. Fiji are prints. Analyses is w in his sovereign. Obviously. Just he was five and a half thanks behind it enable and kinder's time so. It was. It was good enough race and as you say, different tactics for Moschino this year. Last year. On her. Held up this time where she's normally handy. They've adopted the hood on her which has helped enormously. But she's now she's now what changed as she she's only four which is surprising. I, feel like being around from a longer. So. Be Great to see US stay in training perhaps next season of assisted. The mighty free girl. But we we think that maybe until descend cop where she's entered, ask it. She's Eight to one from fourteen to one for the Long Distance Cup and. That look that probably is an ice race for her she seems to become comes this time of the season and. Credit to Fiji are prints, who's I run in a? Race from Handicap Company to group one to shows. How good? How could the boys? He's entitled to keep going in this in this company probably a couple's next year. Maybe he just he's. He's relentless galloper and he never looked like he was I always thought he was still traveling. So captain traveling really really Nice. He kept going but satisfy the song of. FEMA gays to go past in. But a really nice like Bohol feature are pence and. The Long Distance Scott in the past sourcing, the reason why searched for songs shouldn't go over for that and we'll be very very interesting if she did move onto the best named race of the weekend, which was the Petty Power Is it twenty twenty, one yet stakes the group three Berlin. Tiger moth was given a ballsy ride from Roy Moore and absolutely bolted up really again, horse the mangams very very competent about and was well backed backed into odds-on favouritism Shane. Anderson. WHO's friend of the show has said that this is his most confident selection for the Melbourne Cup for years I'm paraphrasing that but it was something something to that effect. The plan seems to be REC- to go into quarantine. They're going to seriously consider it if he can get in candice air also friend of the show on TV. In the states was also saying that he would be the best handicapped and the best racehorse were he to get in I know he lacks experience but damn he was good at the weekend. Yeah, he he he was. Running. A Good Right He was he was brave. It was a bit of a mad race I. Think the two or three kind of runaway horse that look off. Fairly hired already. But. Sane Pace. Yeah. But I looked like they got in they got. A breather before they smoked for home because actually. Aden's older horse. Kerama. cormorants every that. He he was with that and he's like he still managed to finish fourth and run an absolute cracker. So I think kind of Chamie and those elise I think they probably did get in decent breather before they song for home but yeah tiger moths. Is. Quite like. RC. He travels away lovely and and I had. Some many thought you could maybe off graders win because he was chasing that the main Peleton on his own to do his own kind of donkey walk without without could lead or. Cover. So you know that that's never going to be easy to do He had erupt at the bottom of the and and he came home while. It sounds like that. He's going to get a hefty penalty from Greg Carpenter they. beat the Melbourne Cup handicapper and it looks like he might get into the the Melbourne Cope now. But I'm not sure that went down to with Just I haven't seen it property now but supposedly supposedly there's He's given this too much of a penalty which allows them to get in and I think to suggestion that. You know. He wants he really wants this to Raanan. Bar. So we give them a penalty than he normally just the horse can secure his place in the phrase. If that is the case when it when it's called for a O'Brien and allowed to get ours in there, you know that it's not really fair. So. We'll see how that all pans out and it is interesting. This obviously at the medical cop is obviously raised at eight and hasn't won before but they were happy to have sold off a couple of horses who've gone down to Australia this year to me who looked like they'd be ideal. Melbourne Cup Surgery I've actually back surgery I can. COMB. On. A. Yeah. I know just taught. Forty two one was way too big just. leaving. Twenty two oil goes he said. Well I actually hadn't looked at the American for a good while I back to that day that the the news broke being sold and I missed the ball had been actually I'm sure the. Fifties around was shot into someone on twitter at the time and he said he he backed him at fifty. So. Yeah Look I. Just thought it was interesting that and sold the lots of soul team because to me he looks like an ideal Melbourne parties, ears, but he also he Also stays where he well so. have. They sold those horses down to Australia because they've got an ideal candidate and is Tiger Mazda candidate so You've got you've got to respect ever snare. It'll be some laugh when the lads send tiger moth down there and they end up with all their cast-offs finishing fifth, fourth, third and second because you know the ozzy horses for middle distances and staying trips, they're all rubbish. They're all completely useless and the the ex European English Nari shores is they mop up they mop up Australia whenever we head down there but it's tiger moth who still with Aidan. That goes and wins that'd be absolutely fantastic. There's also GonNa be an interesting side note here. Roy Moore can't go in fact, none of the COOLMORE team can go. Nobody can go in or out of Australia until two, thousand, twenty, one at the earliest you can fly horses in yes. But people themselves not allowed into Australia. So the race will be on to book a top-class Jockey, and if Tiger moth has gone open the ratings as you say rick seat then I'm sure the elite Australian jockeys putting their hand up and saying I'd like to write that horse please Mr O'Brien's. Yet definitely. Not, sure I did see today that Roger Charleston has got a groom on a plane to Australia that will be looking after So there might be a little bit of wikileaks room in terms of of people. Going going there if that happens, let me tell you. There's friends of mine who are going to go absolutely nuts because they wanted to come home to Ireland and they're not allowed. They will go mental absolutely mental if that happens they'll. Big Roger Charlton a reindeer down Barak shirt and he sought you. Whole. Thing out. What did you make of? Tiger moth just yeah. Very. Very impressive. For on. He was one of the few short price of the weekend and She looking through because we had about ten greet ones in year the weekend countless group twos threes but there were very few favorites that one and actually every. At ones and there wasn't one favorite that one any of those. So quite interesting. So he was very well fancied and. Your very taking considering how little experience has the others. He's he's clearly a horse with plenty more to come and the Melbourne Cup angles really interesting and considering it's probably Going to be. knows. Competitive with a lack of European challenges I know that DON DVD. Has Been. With Mars. In the season is now heading over. As well. We'll be trained by. Another I, I'm not sure executives that will change train as a he now, how how able to have anyone doing any sort of? Oversee training for him so Yeah it's Very interesting angle and quite rightly he's now. Pretty Short Price Twelfth One. Russian Communists. Seven one is price babies eight so. It'd be interesting to see how it pans out for them. Over the. Sky Sports racing's Tim. Williams is GonNa join us in the podcast to build up to the Everest also talk about the Melbourne Cup. So he can come on and defend Australia's honor with the with the middle sources tim. Tim Tim. Tim Williams. I say Tim producer to museums. Sorry, Tim. Wrong Tim. more coffee. Please hang on. There we go. Triple Espresso. Who's just new presenter on sky? Tim's been Tim's been promoted all of a sudden The Tim Carl apparently is GonNa join us in the front broadcast I. Sorry Tim and He can tell us all about the Australian horses and defend their honor on the podcast as well. As we once again dominated the middle distance and staying divisions. To the juveniles and there were some star performances on show we'll begin with the group won national stakes Vincent O'Brien national stakes and fair play again to. Jane. Mongan. Who made a very strong case for thunder moon making the point that wasn't actually pointed out too much that he had one barry trial. which meant that he wasn't his inexperienced some thoughts unfortunately, we didn't have battleground who had a cough but. Only essentially one run and the barrier trial at that inexperienced did not cost him at all great ride from mcdonagh. And another group on success for Joseph O'Brien Presumably, he has been a big antepost market mover for the two thousand Guineas Jesse. Eight one show for the two thousand. Guineas. Way. Faranoff considering how I that when was he's clearly the trial ball and the maiden when he's still pretty inexperienced compared to the is. He will sit go stop a wall of horses and has to be edged out and he came to really impressive late. So there was a few. Less. Two Stories I. think Lucky vague was fairly and luck as well. You can really find his gap is a pretty messy race. I thought Wembley Stadium, really well. And and he needs further. Loss fundament you could barely see him when he was behind that wall of horses. So you like to that he grows and gets big ethel, the next season and an how he how he went his will be interesting but you know incredibly impressive and probably most eye-catching of older winners we saw in terms of the future and what what he could turn into. Completely agree with you see what was your take on the? National stakes. In some ways it was a little bit. Put it year? Obviously, battleground was a non runner. So that was kind of a bit of a kick in the as. This. Master sees. Was Way Way. Way Too key. And then obviously, there was kind of a bit of trouble and run with lucky vague as well. So it was it was a bit messy part. She's this thunder moon contact quick up. That was just that was ridiculous while he did. You Know He. Sure if you've got beaten people would have been quick to blame declan mcdonagh bought the horse was drawn in one and. If you've got to draw eight times, you've just got to take your medicine. I thought he was much more settled and professional today. And the poor trip didn't really bother me. He's obviously got a will to win some horses when they get into that kind of. Scenario may be down to bought. He's clearly brave and how's it could attitude and just the way he the way he quickened Dan the way he hit the lion was was super impressive soul Absolutely. No surprise that he's to that the four that the market and the two thousand guineas now. He was actually bred by at the O'Brien family I think who was they operate under? They operate under the name, whisper view. Trading Ltd and I think that's a Marine aiden and this horse actually ran in unreas- colors. I think the first A. Very. Impressive. But now he is obviously sold them onto. or a Gal Gonzalez family so Who who had a very good weekend yellow he he was very good. Wasn't messy race I think master the is Daphne Baird and he showed I'd be willing to give him another chance each he just didn't get any was fresh too keen. Didn't get any cover look again he'd give him give him another chance. That the horses you're second and third I talked did pretty well to get. To run as well as they did Wembley looks like the Penny has dropped now him receives given a mountain to climb by Lord of the Gallup fans we came home very well so. He. The eaves rated ninety two going into the race I? Think East on this on this on this performance he's you know he's taken that you know he's improved maybe by the bonds of the stone. Saint Mark's basilica. He he he again came from a from. A kind of tactical disadvantaged position on the Ryan more and he shaped me like you know he eve's ready set. Up a contributor, Roy at the revs up on him about you know just after three furlongs out and run around in front maybe he was a big green needed. Make it easy for him but he he came home by then off so Yeah, it was a bit in some ways it the race was unsatisfactory with how boss. Take nothing away from thunder moon that was that was seriously seriously impressive what he did. Completely agree with both of you regarding Thunder Moon I. Think he's got a bright future in the first looks to be the plan next and rightly. So in terms of a number of sources, this is where the shout from cal came for his. On Rt. so once again, who appreciate it thank you very much. Always nice to see that on terrestrial television He was referenced the interview had with with Aidan and explaining about the issues that they've had with the juveniles the season they had to rush some of them battleground, almost the horse, the exception that proves the rule to get horses ready for Roy Ascott and then they had to back off a little bit and that meant that they were having to do that for horses in their work as well to to see if they could make the race course. So there's been essentially what I'm saying here is just don't give up an Admiral Nelson. There is a chance that Admiral Nelson is still a very, very good horse. And you're sweepstake with the Nebraska Fan site for the final for the podcast could come. Good. Come good but I thought Wembley in Saint Mark's basilica ran really good races and It's a case of keep the faith with these number on juvenile's don't completely give them except for the horse that I own Mexico. City. Who is just not very good at all the bet three, six, five champagnes. Same Philly. PHILLY's gone back to a cool more rancher, Axa, their. Good. Feet up for. Awesome. Three year old air. Cooled more look after me never mind. It doesn't matter. Just let him off. Chint has race to the top of the betting for the two thousand guineas after winning the champagne stakes at doncaster, the group to disarray. So we talked about in depth on Thursday. Rory was very keen el-Bashir but changes come out on top and is now two thousand, guineas, favourite. Jess. Of that was. Is that the right pronunciation. I think he's coach ended. Whatever Whatever? Everyone. I. Think there was some sort of all me during. Something I've read it somewhere anyway. Chindia I. Am a big big big. Fan of actually looking at time for maintains his rated the same on seven after the same as on demand. and. These are two top class horses one being English base and the other over and all in the. Brian State of rest wasn't too far behind. Sort of throw in a bit of Irish form into the mix. And I think looking at stay arrest form it kind puts shinned it slightly behind. Thunder Moon I think he's being stay arrests being running site in Nassar Aces over in Ireland but take nothing away from Shinde he's just keeps improving. I feel he should have been much shorter than the fifteen to eight three point two on the exchange that he went off our form of his ascot when is Red, hot and he thought you know he's done nothing wrong so far this season, the obviously embarrassed who's been very impressive I. I'm mile and was a really good battle with the first three being a long way clare with the fourth Shindig it a bit like thunder moon is the biggest either. And this is a race that threat one last year for the training remember and he hasn't exactly trained on. So I hope to see him again train on next year allow. You know the case it's a bit like the back end of losses. Early, this season we talked about two year olds and turning into a three year olds and Pinatubo or that light Latin whether they're just very two year olds. So it'll be interesting to see how how. Do Sorry. Sight. Chaos going on next door and see how he how he improved. The trainer has attorney. Likely, a think. Next as well, but he's eight to one from twelve month beginnings another big boost Bassett. So then I'll KUMO MOSTAR AND I think this was a really pleasing pleasing performance the team I think the coolmore team were rubbing their hands with glee when she went in for wooden Bassett. Now, these transferred to cool more and two feathered. See. What did you make of Chint and how would he compare in your mind to thunder moon I? Think I haven't a chance yet to properly ray Chint it's race. By suspect he's going to be in around maybe one ten or eleven and I think I gave one ten to. To the Horse who won the national stakes? But Yeah I talked I talked Pat Dobbs probably gave us the best rate and and that maybe that can cut that contributed to why he won. Pat To be fair as being very good on this horse all season when he when he's written him. He's got plenty of culver and I. Think you know the whole week and ask out there was a headwind there. So Horse Zuege Culver. Really. Were advantage. The OMAROSA. Al-Bashir on. Just, his second run. Has Run a cracker I taught Jim Crowley. I taught Jim just exposed him to the wind and the elements little bit sooner than I thought he should have rolled them with more with more confidence. But look he wanNA kind of snow. Ron made on his stockton eat he had to go much quicker Gallup appear open class in the I thought he adopted Joseph our state arrest why he's a bit more exposed than than the other two officers. He run very as well. He didn't travel as well as the other two, but he stopped he responded very gamely the under top mark want he looks looks leggy now this. is of Star spangled banner. So he could he's another record improve. There is just one thing I assume we're going to. Discuss the park stakes next which is on the old run over the same course and distance on the same day faraway momentum. Yeah I just. There people are comparing the two times of these races here the. Chinden I. Think one second here. Now I think he he wanted one, twenty, four, twenty, one and Wichita One and one, twenty five. Twelve and obviously, this is a horse which it's a WHO, who run in the guineas. Second in the Guinea. So kind of if on time farm comparisons, she looks and absolutely sensational performance from Chinden. Bausch. And I copy tolkien nonsense here. Bosh. Very big caveat on on that time. Basically, which from the very get go under Frankie dettori got. Cover what so ever throughout the race to do all his own donkey work? Chained it on the other hand long with Basheer and stay to rest to three those cover from. Throughout the whole away and so I wouldn't be wouldn't be you know presidio to these two performances on times. You'd probably be back in the first three in the champagne stakes for the guineas next year because they look absolutely out of this world two year Olds Bosch I. Think it looks too good to be true. So I I would just be very, very careful. I've seen a couple of people referencing I think pat solves records reference to themselves. Path yesterday when he would interview at ball for me, I wouldn't be reading into the Times. That for me don't look as good as on papers they suggest I was thinking exactly and you've put more quickly than I was going to so well done ricky, I know times against you. You've got a hot date with Mercer, Miller, the supermodel. So we we have to let you go in terms of. She's married by the way so. They shared doesn't stop anyone these. Got I got two words for you super injunction that'll solve the whole thing for you. To words for you stop all carry on covert ninety. God anyway as we as we come to the end of your appearance on the show just. Do the heavy lifting towards the end. A Horse to put into your. Tracker from the weekend. Oh. ooh Oh. Your your. Body thrown this won't meet Kennedy. Who'd tossed code of taught such a Second. Chat amongst yourselves they're leaving just the results. picky. We move on to the car and the MOYGLARE Stud stakes shale was beaten liberty gorgeous less time but had beaten pretty gorgeous the time before and gets revenge for Donegal Brian against his brother Joseph O'Brien and what was a fantastic weekend for the o'briens in terms of the market before get your views on the race Jessica I'm very keen to hear. We have to say, but I think these are two really bright horses for the future. Shale seemed to be real mark drifter. Yeah I mean diesels being running each other the last two, three times if they've come up up together but yeah, it was the money was particularly GIS she was. Two point three full. And Shale went off six to one. And I think it really really made a difference, the ground surface Jihad. But to be honest. Pretty Gorgeous. The two of them are going to battle each other now against each other for the rest of the season and probably switch over. But. Shale being. Daughter of a thousand guineas winner. She's likely to improve for next year. And I think considering nearly to scare the rest of these are top quality phillies. Oversee probably, quick too quick for the favorite pretty gorgeous. His by lawman to she'd probably rather bit of given the ground. But these are really really exciting types for next year's guineas shells twelve twenty S. Be Interesting if the Komo for the phillies October I thought to see how they get on Newmarket and yeah brilliant victory for Donor Kobe Bryant he wants to join in on the Family Party and third. Third Group One, win for him this season as well. It is going to be the phillies mile or the pre muscle bootzack they just have to decide but that's what Donka was looting to that. It'll be one or the other ricky have you gotten worse I? Guess I'm just going to go with this race just back share now for the one thousand Guineas Oh. In the footsteps of love last year where. It's at credit markets rex. Twelve to one, but it's still vast gold. It's going to be like fourteen. Minding minding did the double and loved the double of courses? Well so she'll to do it as well. Shale is is your horse Yeah I do too. I Love Pretty Gorges. Well, I think maybe if you could Nettie back bowls to these to be on the. I think he's to toss phillies now I I really do It's it's actually share doesn't remind me of kind of physically are anything like that but. It's. Her Harp Role Fund coming into this race is remarkably like loves last year in the DEBUTANTE last year love didn't call with soft ground. And she bounced back on much quicker ground to win the the MOYGLARE. Exact exact same scenario with Shay. And the ground was far to suffer the last day back on quicker groundsheet she bounced back. She's even though she's out of homecoming queen knew who was an absolutely ridiculous thousand Guineas winner on on very soft ground but but didn't go on after it. She shaved me just looks like a fairly who she could not the ground fast for her. She's got you useful gate speech. He travels well enough. And I just think she's got a great attitude. Didn't he? She traveled as well as she can do on and more. But then when Ryan gave her a squeeze got after you know she's got a brilliant attitude he responded grace. The body language for more didn't look raise maybe about half a mile to rolling approach three out but once more got after she she really did respond. I think this is the probably the best two year old East Forum. We've seen this year. From Shale I think I've got a run into one, hundred, one, hundred, thirteen. I'm just going to have a look now what I had love on last year without it'd be. Interesting. Yes. So a hundred, thirteen city of mine getting that kind of rating is at this time of the year is is good for what I go under to be. We'd probably giver may be one, hundred and fifty Jesus. I only had love run in two hundred and one hundred nine last year. Wow in the in the MOYGLARE. But I've Gosh share on into two hundred thirteen. So yeah anywhere. Prayer leave got to going back to shale again for them. Doing. Getting stuck in as. We've seen. Yeah Hope I can't see new market beat any problems who are whatsoever and trae pray for fast ground. There's absolutely no doubt chief she and improve again to the temple and trip. which he might get again if she wins the Marcel Boussac that price probably half. So yeah not happened. Exactly. You got to fund open hopefully a nice ante-post. Let's take the double figure price about shale. So for the one thousand Guineas Declan Pleasures Befriend looking forward seventy back on the show again soon and watch out for declins excellent articles on Athas Dot Com as well. You can also get them on the. Up stay safe friend. Cheers lots. Me This was enjoying it us ever absolutely great crack, my friend and some great insert from me as well. declan rix demand the myth, the legend, just a couple more races to go just before we head off Cadillac devastatingly impressive debut and gets the job done in fine style in the KPMG Champions Juvenile stakes he looks right one and the Breeders Cup could be next. When winning favor as well not many of them in the in the big group braces. This is a group to. He. Went off a two point five eight. Still fairly an experience which perhaps costume is racist time in the charity. I think they would disappointed with that run, but this is much more straightforward for him. Bucks to the scene of his maiden win in July and Graham favorable and you can tell how excited shame about him he he says he doesn't excite you at home but he comes alive at the races and they safe pinpointed the Redick Breeders Cup of tough. He definitely has the gays going around those Ben's at Keeneland. Hopefully, the ground wouldn't get too tacky and miserable the him you wouldn't want the that. Thank. Off Behind. As we said about the note Brian Two year olds that no one hundred percents. So you'd like to hope a whole site that would probably improve by American fire they all do I really believe these horses a better. Three. An older. Yep Breeders. Cup Do not have Cadillac is five to one I show and twelve twelve, thirty, three's for the guineas. So. If, you would like it. If that floats your boat, it is available I think GonNa be fascinating in the. Frame which interested to see what he's GonNa. Do I think we'll just take a swing one more race and. That race will be doncaster the park stakes. So Wichita. Was My Napa the weekend and goes and wins. The park stakes group two gets the better of one master and basically exactly as Ricky said is how I view this he had to do all the donkey work. A lot of things went wrong firm, and somehow he managed to cling onto Frankie Dettori. Yeah. I feel Wichita has been so I mean it hasn't won yet this when the season but he's had a really busy campaign he's seen less of his violent his most ballydoyle. He's very south Sidebar Lind to and this is a deserving success. First Win since the tactical stakes September and he's been running really well behind like space blues, Mathare, Palace, and Kemoko this obviously not as tough. A group to be money in Greek ones will season. He's entitled to go favor. And I think the for the mile might be right the him next. You wouldn't think you want it very soft but I just thought to mark Marquand neely timed the race to perfection one. Just, tonight at the post, does screaming at. Really, excited that Thomas on Gallet crow and I thought that was taking himself up really nice ahead of his Saint Leger run. Cheese a cracking there. She won the four a last year. So very excited to see defend. It probably will be much deeper ace which tend to one from twenty five for the day and ten to one from twenty five to one for the breeders. Cup? Mile. But yeah the hard way he deserved that success but just a slightly lesser race in what he's been, he's been running in so far this season. Horse to follow for the racist tracker for you just from the weekend. So when I thought up a really good performance. which. I mentioned. The Race names I can't remember which race he was actually in it just. Yeah he's done to me. I thought I thought he will need further and time he's next year horse outrun his odds and added to that. Will not running that. Well, the two year olds don't running up to scratch. I. Think he's definitely one fuel a racist. and. So. Many more I feel like that's a week answer. I would like to say. Also. Of course mothers around here. I think. Dumb. It welds Philly one hundred percent wherever she does next year. So the one that one in France and the weekends or one. Time Wanna absolutely because she's still slightly under the radar I think she can improve and again. Next year might be a good season for. That Funny, we're talking about next season and what they'll do next year but we still go ahead of a lot to come over the next couple of months and whatever says might choose to do internationally if they can. The Breeders Cup looks to really filled with lots of options say foia as we haven't mentioned being he's just come into his own this season. It looks like he might be heading off the mile. No one tracker because you'll get huge big prices and he's just a fun tastic. You know I'd love to see what he can do over at Keeneland as well. But potentially, and but still a lot to look forward to it's just funny how the the picture of the arcus now suddenly not as exciting as we. Thought it would be a month ago. Champion stakes ascot looks exciting. Actually, it's the international races. People the cut which I think is going to be much more more quality from our side than we had last year. And that's really exciting. I think that's a really good point to make of the horses that we've now seen who do you think is the most likely winner of the ARC. enable. Really. I have been trying to be. A love angle but I think they have trained in able to A. For this holiday shots did last season and the campaign was too busy for her or quite intense in the run up. The way that they've got her now is ideal and we've heard John. Gosden. We've we've had what he said I. Mean There's no, there's an he's. Everything is designed exactly as they wanted it to be and now the. Whole sort of dropping at the wayside is loved to be an yes. She's got that way to bondage, but enable has the experience she has. Out She has been, she's got the the resolution to win an arc whereas love has. Not Been Challenged and I think this will be an tests for her. And I think Frankie knows how to win an neighbor. He's done it twice before and dot experience will hold her And Yeah I'm I'LL BE I'll be backing enable and I'm pleased her sightly decided better priced whirlwind Ryan was on the podcast weeks ago I asked what the current price was one of my my bet so I had to the one was victory dorm. Like see. I said I backed horse at twelve and fourteen to one, and that's what's the price this source now and he goes twenties and I think she was as. A perhaps on the machine I'm not entirely sure. I. Think she was now she's eights. So I think I'll stick with article to such the sprinkle some magic over arc weekend I just think she's a she's a different horse this season, and that was a mighty performance the weekend as long as that doesn't take too much out of her. I would very much like to think I don't think it has because the way Shaimaa. Heffernan was talking about her before the race and afterwards and the way Aden was talking about are on Tuesday's final from podcast as well that they tweak things witter that she's a little bit stronger. keeping the faith with magical. It's going to be a fascinating race. You are right though not quite as strong as we once hoped to but we'll. We'll see we'll see. Last week in the show, we did a competition. We're initially going to give away to final mugs. Then we increased it two to three, and then we went for four. So the question we asked was, what was the official juvenile rating of Pinatubo at the end of his juvenile campaign? Steve Box tweeted to say I, think he was raised. Nine, hundred, fifty, four. Even. Higher Than Surname Steve You're wrong. But that's such. A good tweet will extend it to five modes and and you're in you've got yourself a Mug. We'll Humphry Pinatubo's rated one hundred, twenty, two F. B. Globe well, done will. Mug is on the way to you Paul Race. To be raising one, twenty, eight at the club Paul, you've got yourself a customized final podcasts Mogi Christchurch. Also gets it right? And he goes on to ask does Emma have to pay out now Pinatubo wins the Breeders Cup? Mile or is it only European races? No if he wins a mile race A group one over Mile I've got to pay the fifty euro charity Best and if he doesn't Jane has to. But I think at this stage, the two of us should just pay the fifty quid to the injured jockeys phone because. was. Not, GonNa win a group one over a mile he's. An unbelievably overrated. He says Trophy Paul Everywhere. Dropping bombs over the place look he was a brilliant juvenile ain't that go to the three-year-old. Race. Seven long. Run them in a group to. Running running. Running the foreign. and I'm going to get this pronunciation wrong Sundeep Bala. I hope I got that right reading of one twenty eight as well. The highest since Celtic swing back in nineteen dignity do or officially nineteen ninety-four well done some deep you get yourself a personalized final PUCCA smog. We'll be in touch with you for your details they are on the way and thank you so much for making his number one on Sunday around the world. That was just insane. That's ridiculous. So thank you very very much for that. That's incredible. did not expect that and to be sitting alongside second captains and ahead of them is just punctures. Thanks so much for that. You're all incredibly listeners only two weeks to go to the final four podcast jumps preview preview number one of the twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty, one season. There's a lot of flat stuff still to come and I'm really excited about it but I'm not GonNa lie I'm very excited about the seasons well. I'm sure you are too just. Yes I. Think I saw Harry Cop denting up some instagram's something. He was scaling a couple of voices today Solo Dallas and surname. And Yeah, they all mighty in the sunshine. And Yeah. So between Pool Nichols and Gordon Elliott and Alima fiancee's if from Bedford and busted perspective but also. Like. There's a lot of I think. These jumps trainers. They've got some far in that belly because they season was cut short and back, and they want to make the most of every second they've got now. To to kind of. Make up for lost time because it ended so abruptly. And yet is lot to look forward to so cannot wait so much to look forward to it's GonNa be really exciting and looking forward to bring you coverage of it on the podcast and building up to. As I said, we've still got so much to come in terms of the flat. The jumps is just thrown the corner and it's really exciting. That's it from just effort. Could buy a great stuff is just GOING GONNA. Thank you so much for listening. Thanks for the kind words and social media. We will see you on. Thursday as we look ahead to the weekend until then couples will it happen or won't it happen? You can bet on it with the bet for exchange proud sponsors of the final furlong podcast. Have, you downloaded the free races up yet with easy to use race cards, inform expert daily tips plus video replays an inner vetting the APP the nursing fans phone should be without available for free on your iphone or android mobile visit at racist dot com forward slash APP for more details.