20 Episode results for "Shaker Heights"

The Real Shaker Heights

Little Fires Everywhere - The Official Podcast

25:55 min | 4 months ago

The Real Shaker Heights

"Uh-huh! Hello again, honorary residents of Shaker Heights circuit ninety seven. This is little fires everywhere, the official podcast and I am your co host Jamie Loftus so if you're listening to this right after watching. For, we have a lot to talk about and today I'm excited to give you a little taste of what Shaker Heights Ohio is really like in this episode for going to be speaking with the author of little fires everywhere, the novel Celeste Ing, and we're also going to be speaking with real life Shaker. Heights residents today both city planners and current students with these student council on race relations, really good stuff, but before we get there. I wanted to give you a brief history lesson I know bear with me. This is a brief history of Shaker. Heights Ohio because Shaker Heights. As you already know from watching, the show is not your average community. So Shaker Heights reached city status in one, thousand, nine, hundred, thirty one, and like the nineties iteration we see little fires everywhere it is known for its extremely specific building codes and zoning laws carefully planning regulating the length of grass, the color of houses. How far any given? How should be from the nearest elementary school and ensuring that the city is neighborhood watched inside walked carefully amongst other things. Shaker Heights is not the only place of its kind. There are over a hundred plan cities and communities. Communities currently active in the US, but Shaker is by far the most famous of them in part because of its reputation for adopting progressive policies that would later become standard across the country. Because over the years, Shaker Heights has made a variety of efforts to encourage integration in their community to varying levels of success fast forward a couple more years in nineteen seventy nine things were finally starting to look up with the housing office, promising to show white homebuyers homes in predominantly black neighborhoods and vice versa. Versa this initiative led to something called the Fund, for the future of Shaker Heights in Nineteen eighty-six a homebuyers loan program that provided black homebuyers with loans to encourage them to move into neighborhoods that were at least ninety percent, white and white homeowners loans to move into neighborhoods that were at least fifty percent black, and while well intentioned, one of the themes in the show, this program was not able to overcome the inherent white supremacy of the real estate market itself, and not many black homebuyers were. Were able to afford homes in the majority white areas, and so by the nineteen ninety S, white homebuyers were receiving ninety percent of the loans distributed. And you know who else was in Shaker Heights in nineteen, ninety-seven author Celeste in Celeste was a student at Shaker high at the time that her novel takes place the World That Mia and Pearl Warren drive into and their station wagon in the pilot episode. It's a world driven by for better or worse, he quote unquote good intentions of Elena. And her fellow Shaka rights I got the chance to catch up with Celeste to get some insight into her history with Shaker Heights, and what about bad experience, growing up a way to the and series we now know in love so without further. Ado Your Celeste. He's last so just to get started. Would you mind telling me a little bit about your personal history? Engineer Heights sure I grew up in Shaker Heights move there a little bit before I turned ten, and then I lived there until I went away to college since about eighteen, and it was a really formative police for me and I learned a lot growing up there, and it did shape me into the person that I am for for better answer, wars largely I think for better. It is a community that really puts its ideals. right up front. That's shown. I think not only in the history of the town which was built as a sort of idealized town. Every road was planned out so that you know the the traffic wouldn't dart through the the neighborhood. It would keep the area quiet. No children would have to cross a major street and it was also a place that, at least starting from the nineteen fifties was really heavily invested in the idea of desegregation and of being racially diverse at least in terms of black and white. So in the nineteen fifties, there was a bomb at the house of a prominent black lawyer who lives in Heights, and this was at the height of white flight. It was a problem that was happening. All of the country and Shaker Heights had this moment where they had to decide. What are we going to do about this? Are we going to give in and let? The different areas of town become more segregated, or are we going to actively try and combat that and they chose to actively try and do something about it, and that's really been one of the guiding principles for the community, since then so when you were writing little fires everywhere, what was on your mind about the Shaker? You grew up in. It is a place that is trying in ways that many other places aren't and the question always is okay. Are you trying enough? What's what's going wrong? Or is it just human nature and I think that's one of the questions that the community has been wrestling with for at least the thirty years. That I've been connected with it. Is that sort of open question of intentions versus what actually comes out I? Mean they haven't solved No, but at the same time neither has anyone else, and that's because these problems are really huge in really complicated and. You were just trying to sort of wrestle with as best we can. Okay, so what are the sort of questions that you were grappling with in regards to Shakur throughout the writing of this book I mean. How much can you kind of adhere to that idealism? I think it's easy for us to see Elena. As idealism even illionis dogmatism, we might call it in that. She has an idea of how your life is supposed to work right. She has an idea of what. What you're supposed to be doing. These are the good choices that you're supposed to be making assuming that you have them rate It's easy for us to see that I. Think because a culture where really biased towards the the idea of the free spirit. We'd like to think of ourselves as being know free spirits and rebels. That's kind of that's part of the foundation of identity rate. Were we're you're here, so you can do whatever you want, but the truth is that. Mia also has her own kind of idealism. Almost sort of fanaticism that she thinks this is how an artist lives. You give up all these things for your art to the point that you maybe uproots your daughter in the service. If you're art that she really sacrifices a lot and I think she starts to see also the limits of those things where she comes to Shaker Heights. There's that. Really wrenching moment. In the early episodes, where Pearl says to her I want more than one wall. You know she's. She's saying I want to be able to stay here. I. Want more than just a little tidbits that I've been allowed to have up until now, and you see that me is running up against the limits of how she's been living her life, too. There's there's definitely. Not Anyone in this story who comes out as sort of the hands, clean, faultless person in the story. It is very much like an inch of the woods. Moment of there's you know. Everyone's pointing their fingers, and saying it's your fault, and the truth is that it's kind of everybody's fault, and that question of good intentions to. It's like you know we're. We're trying so. So hard to be our best selves, and we're also human beings, and of course the problem is that we always think that you know your good intentions are are enough and should field you and do shield many people from the actual consequences of your actions, and this is really a story about a lot of your actions coming home, and those consequences coming back to you. Thank you again to Celeste in for the perspective, and for the book that we are all very obsessed with. So insulated. We have a perfect end to the Shaker heights of the nineteen nineties, but I was curious about what she is now twenty twenty has there been any easing to the many social issues we see play in the series and are the problems that Pearl Warren faces at Shaker high specifically with getting into honors classes as a black student, still relevant at the school today and to answer these questions I was lucky to get in. In touch with tear sergeant, one of the supervisors and a twenty fourteen graduate of the school's Student Group on race, relations or score, which is a group at Shaker high that aims to have prince students educate others in the community about systemic oppression, and to foster healthier race relations in Shaker, joining us on this call, as well are to current Shaker high students and members of score. Students feared Christopher and curly Leeman. Let's take a listen. Hi. My name is tear, sergeant and I am the score adviser. Carly in score core leader I'm jared I'm also core leader amazing so I. I am curious I mean because so much of the story follows the trials and tribulations of high school students in Shaker but almost twenty five years ago, so just from your own personal experience having grown up there. What is that experience like growing in a very planned community? What are the advantages? And then what are the drawbacks if any tear Moreland critic. We used to have our own elementary school because I think it was planned for everybody to be able to walk to their own schools, our neighborhood, we are best to the Mercer neighborhood name so. Essentially Moreland is a all African. American. IMMERSIVE is all white so your bus there to start integrating ambitious elementary school, so I think that'll do like the planned community. Like, I think it is a nice privilege that we don't recognize, but then you could see like how the plan didn't work in like how Mercer students are summer, students are bused to another neighborhoods I. wanted to ask about that because there is a storyline in little fires everywhere the series involving a black student who's transferred into Shaker from another school, and experiences a lot of resistance from the guidance counselor system in getting into the advanced classes. She deserves to be in because of her race. Is that something you've seen reflected in the current Shaker heights system. Yeah I! I think the guidance counselor issue we're. We're talking and that is like. That was shocking. Detail that it's still true. I think a lot of times up. Black families have to still fight for their children to have advanced classes so about a month ago, we had an open discussion about how we say at Shaker that we have open enrollment, but do we truly have open enrollment? Black are still constantly fighting for their kids to be the classes. ADV experienced this, jared. Your mom mentioned that you've experienced that rubs, but then also carly's rather Sam always makes this point about like. H and how yes, we want equity in the district, but sometimes y parents have to understand that they have privilege to and they. They might say that they want equity, but they really don't want equity, because it might seem that bear child is. Getting a resource taken away, so it's really bringing awareness to these types of we could say mentality. That are happening with them. Guidance Counselor, thing not only do I noticed that like people of other races are discouraged discouraged from taking upper level classes, but I also noticed that some classes will have mostly white students. In some cases we'll have mostly black students despite being the same level and that too, and like another way of separating us even though just another reason why we should be more together because we all. All have the same type of ability. The guy's house system should be more aware that win separating the classes currently, if you were able to get through to the powers that be in Shaker and make some changes. What kind of changes do you WANNA? See made in your community. Think Bay thing with Education Gaff is just like with teachers are AP classes auditors are white, basically like finding more diversity in that. Tier so we're hiring a chief diversity officer. which when I was in highschool, I wish we had a sheet diversity officer in administration, so it's really cool to see that you're. GonNa Hassle. One Who is solely focused on these issues and not like other administrators who is to like tackle this this issue while doing their job like this is going to be so it's first priority so I. AM appreciative I think also that we need to address the wealth gaps, and obviously the wealth cout correlates. Correlates directly with rates. If you don't have the resources to have a tutor, you might not have the ability to have the resources that some of your white counterparts have because they have a tutor, or if you don't have the resources to buy expensive across the equipment, like my brother plays across, and he's one of the only African Americans on the Cross, surreally tackling the wealth gap, so just really far families in Shaker to understand what is and truly wanting to have equity for everyone. Thank you so much to all three of you for taking the time to talk with us. I really appreciate it in kill. Thank you. So as you can hear, Shaker is a very complicated place. And I was still trying to wrap my around the INS and outs of what a plan community really is, and what it represents, so I put on my big girl Elena pants, minus all the problematic parts, and I decided to ask the women who are currently leading the charge planning Shaker today. This is a conversation. I had recently with Joyce Braverman eat. Director of Shaker Heights city, planning and Julie Voice the Shaker. Heights communications director the week before little fires everywhere first aired, so let's take a listen. Hello Ladies so before we get started just so everyone can tell who's speaking. Let's just introduce ourselves hi I'm Julie McGovern Boise and I am the director of Communications and marketing for the city of Shaker Heights and I'm Joyce Braverman and I am the planning director for the city of Shaker Heights and I've been with the city for thirty years I've only been with the city for ten years, but I was raised here buffo. For, many people watching little fires everywhere is going to be their introduction to Shaker Heights just for US newcomers To describe what is Shaker, Heights? We are a community real planned by the fan. Swear brothers in the early nineteen hundreds nineteen twelve. Most of the land of Shaker Heights early in their career, so they developed this beautiful community, they wanted to control how the built form look, so that was very important to them, and they had a publication called the swearing design standards, and these talked about building your house in three styles, and this appears in the book tutor French colonial, and they also had standards for paint colors, and which colors to paint the trim of your house in the body of the house they also called for the homes to be designed by a competent architect in what. What they meant by this was an architect that was known. It was an era in the early nineteen hundreds, where some of the fines protects, were at the height of their careers in the Cleveland area, and also to regulate good taste. They were very concerned about someone who might not have good taste. That's kind of the history of Shaker Heights. That's so interesting I I am very interested in the planning aspect especially because it's just a concept that is kind of foreign to me. So when the syringe brothers said good taste. What did they mean by that? So? They were very concerned with what the roof slipped like and what the windows looked like, and the garages were the garages I said the garages were not in are still not allowed to have doors facing street, so as an attached garage met you came up? You're driving. Did A u-turn into the garage with the door facing the rear or a detached garage would have adore facing sideways, so again came in your driveway. Instead of going right into your garage, you made a right turn or left turn they are our garage doors and eyesore I'm trying I'm trying to figure out stores. See See. I, mean in the book. Your idea of being a planned community is sort of like plan to perfection, or it's planned for perfection. At when I was reading the book, it made me realize like wow, that could feel like a really confining thing for some people gave me this new perspective on it, because I think that there were a lot of characters in the book that did feel confined by that that that created. Created, a certain amount of pressure I think that for when you grow up here. The idea of this being a plans community feels that we were doing things in a very intentional way are planning was to try to be an expression of our values and many situations. Yeah, field planned planned. You appreciate all the little details, but you don't feel like some Utopian side right? Yeah, you're you're not in a simulation. Right. No, you're not and really what it gets to that. It's created a physical environment. That's a really nice place to live. starting to talk a little bit more about little fires everywhere. Have you both read the book? Oh Yeah yes. Yes, I'm. What were your initial reactions to it? Well, you know my initial reaction. If I I was a little taken aback, because like personify Shaker, so since it's a work of literature, it kind of makes us more than what we are prepared for this I went back and read parts of the book and on second reading. It wasn't so shocking to me because it really is a fair portrayal of our community. It's very accurate about the details of the city. Shaker actually has a life. Life in a personality so feels like a character in the book. Yeah, I would agree and you know. It was really fun to read it. The accuracy was really amazing, but I also have to say that. Having gone to the high school scenes in the high school were so incredibly accurate I felt like I was back in high school I mean. She talked specifically about our backyard pickup for Gurvich. Yes, which people from not around the east side of Cleveland thinks it's the most bizarre. Process, they ever heard of. It's actually fantastic. It is fantastic, but it's part of the value of the community not to have garbage on the front lawn to keep your community beautiful, and then other characters in the story that you felt particularly connected to a I was captivated by the you know the high school kids in the book because I thought the experience with billy genuine I did feel like Elena was. You know almost a caricature of people here? It was sort of an extreme version of people here in her. You know her drive for perfection, and you know like I said before that sort of connection between everything being planned and you know. Know perfect and controlling for the messy mess, I didn't really connect with that but I did think the kids and their experience here seemed real, and the interactions between them I think it reflected our diverse community, and that we do have a lot of single parent households and Shaker and part of it is because forty percent of our housing stock is actually stock. Be It two family homes like the one they lived on winslow were apartment buildings, or Condo's so even though Shaker Heights seems like you know the picture, perfection and single family home ownership. We are actually have a good percentage of rental property in our city and people who are single single. Single parents or lower income are in a lot of those rental properties, so I felt that was very real portrayal of that type of people that lived here right, and that is of course where we find Mia and Pearl living in the show in the rental property owned by Lena's family on winslow road. She talked about the book. Winslow wrote historic district and every two family home was designed to look like a single family home, and that designation that effort was recognized in the nineties by the designation of the street as a historic district to show that smaller homes had value and were held to the same share standards as larger house. You know that sort of. Of shown as one of the ways that Shakur was trying to be so perfect like to pretend I think that you know. We didn't have to family houses or rental housing. Yeah, but the truth of the matter is that they were designed that way so that you know everybody felt like they were. You know living in this really high quality housing, and is Joyce, said you know built to the same standard. And it was. It was done for those reasons. It wasn't done to create some sort of facade of perfection. So you know that that idea of perfection is used in the book. I think really effectively because it sets up some interesting tension between characters. But again I think as I mentioned before you know I think in some ways for us. That idea of you know planning these things out were to achieve some intentional goals. About about the community so. I just thought that when she was talking about winslow in the book, it was kind of interesting because the way it was portrayed there i. think wasn't exactly what the intention was. That's one of the parts of the book and the show that I found so fascinating as you can both understand why and the intention behind designing something, a certain way wasn't intended to be any sort of value judgment on anyone, but then you're like well. I can understand why it may be interpreted in that way depending on where you're coming at the situation, and I guess just for listeners who are coming to this only having the context of. Being portrayed in Nineteen ninety-seven. What is different about? In twenty twenty, that maybe wasn't as true or there are things to work on back in ninety seven. Well, you know we are constantly evolving and growing and I think we have dug in even more deeply on exploring diversity and inclusion, and being even more proactive in terms of initiatives that were undertaking where were bolder and more open about how much we value this and doing the hard work I think actually the book did a good job of portraying that idea that you could kinda. Check the box on undiversified. It was easy to say that you wanted to have friends of the different. Raise or invite them into your house, and then you kind of check. Check the box and said Yeah, you know. I am good with us, but I think now, and since then, and certainly now we are very very intentional about creating a diverse and inclusive community, and the city's just enacted some of the most progressive and wide ranging lgbtq protections. We are really proud of that but all of these things are really overt expressions of our values and not sure we were as overt and intentional at that time I think that Celeste book opens up a lot of difficult conversations. She is a product of a school system. Where we did value that so I'm not surprised that her book touches on some really important themes But you know we're not. We're not afraid of the hard work with. The conversation and you know it can be messy and difficult, but I think the good news is that we're willing to do this hardware now so. Come here and visit, and we'll take people on a little fires everywhere or You can do a little fires everywhere walking tour. It'll be like an AIRBNB immersion option. So you'll get. This is where Elena and meow got into an argument rap here. So that's Shaker Heights Ohio and all it's wonderful and messy glory. I hope that today's episode gave you a little more insight into the world that the little fires everywhere team brought to life so beautifully and keeps. You all fired up for what I can tell you. Spoiler free is very juicy episode airing on Hulu next week. You can follow a little fires everywhere. Well everywhere at Little Fires Hulu and we'll see you here you. However you say that about a podcast next week.

Shaker Heights Shaker Shaker Heights Shaker Heights Ohio Shaker Elena Shaker high Celeste Ing Shaker high Shaker high US Ohio Cleveland Pearl Warren Joyce Braverman winslow Shakur Mia Shaka
Shaker Heights - Episode 2: The Weird Kid in School

True Crime Garage

1:11:29 hr | 6 months ago

Shaker Heights - Episode 2: The Weird Kid in School

"Uh-huh welcome to Shaker Heights episode to the Weird Kid in school and the early morning hours of Friday September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety sixteen year old. Lisa PRUITT was stabbed to death in Shaker Heights. The upper class suburb on the east side of Cleveland. Her body was discovered behind a mansion. Owned by the DREIFORT family. The murder under occurred the day. Her Boyfriend Dan Dreifort was released from a mental institution. No murder weapon was found at the scene within twenty four hours the detectives had interviewed the Dreifort family. And come up with few solid leads in the days after the murder friends of Dan. dreifort commit up at the home of classmate Kathryn Scholtz to discuss the ongoing mystery following this meeting. Several of Dan's friends went to the police station station with a startling claim. A young man named Kevin Young had been overheard stating he wanted to kill Lisa because he was jealous of Dan. hand-drive heard this podcast presents. The case as it unfolded for Shaker Heights. Police detectives the interviews. You're about to hear are taken from. Actual you'll police reports and recounted by actors as the story unfolds. Ask yourself who do you think killed Lisa Brooke. This is detective. Richard Malini with the Shaker Heights. Police Department statement in an interview by one. Jonathan Andrew George Doc Jonathan. I know Dan from band. I've known him since about eighth grade. We've been friends since then until now. I've known Lisa's since I was in tenth tenth grade. And I've known Kevin since I was in ninth grade Dan and Lisa than going out for a couple months now Kevin supposedly like Lisa for a long time. Now most girls blow Kevin off because he seems kind of weird. We read a rabbit. Shaker Square mean Shane McGee. We're standing by Shane's car talking with Kevin and we were talking about Dan. Dry Ford and Kevin Young said something like. I'd hate to be Dan because he doesn't get any play and me and Shane. McGee both laughed Kevin. Kevin was like. Why are you guys laughing? And we're both like because Dan gets a lot of play from girls and Kevin Young said. Well he's not getting any from Lisa Pruitt and I said yes he is he sleeping with her and Kevin just freaked. He was like that asshole that asshole I hate him. I'm going to kill kill him. I want her dead and then he stormed off and left me and Shane McGee later. That night I was talking to Kevin Young again. And he was saying that women were good for nothing thing except screwing them and throwing them away and how. There's really no point in them. Me and Shane McGee. We were both like okay. Kevin Right we dated Arabica little while longer and talk to some friends there and then me and Shane both left. Could you describe Kevin Young physically and where he lives if you know. He's about six feet tall about one hundred. Sixty one hundred and seventy pounds blonde blue eyed listen to heavy metal METALLICA and anthrax. Uh He basically doesn't like the world doesn't like Black Jews Polish people basically a typical areas supremacists type person. He's usually usually a lot of talk. He says things about people but then he's friends with them. He talks about people behind their backs. It's very hard for Kevin to get a girlfriend because his views on everything they are really strange. He'll be infatuated with a person in ninth grade. He was infatuated with a girl named Marissa Dolinsky and she was going out with a friend of mine named Bradhurst. I and we were in Canada and he was threatening that he would commit suicide unless Maria broke up with Brett and went out with him. Jeff Petty and Hans Boehner are both band directors at the high school school and they were both there and knew about with threatening this and took his sleeping pills from him. That was basically all I remember about that. Kevin does not get along with his parents. None of us is friends. Understand why his parents are great. He's a heavy drinker. He drinks by himself. He likes to get drunk and wander off by himself. He lives across the street from the high school in a White House with a swimming pool in the backyard. Don't know the address or the St the ever see Kevin Young Act in a violent manner manner. Not sure I like didn't hang around him a lot. The only time he came over was it parties. I'd say I don't know. Do you know of Kevin Young abuses any kind of drugs. I don't think so. I've never used them with him or seen him use them. Do you think Kevin Young would be capable of killing someone. Yes why just basically because of how he does talk and he can become very aggressive. I've never seen him get into a fight with another guy. But because of his basic eight for women because they spurn him because of the conversations that me and my friends have about him the strange things he says and does Kevin Young ever talk to you about sex. There's views on sex. He always wanted to get laid. It rarely happened. Like the only time was with Jackie Hale and that was like it he he hates fags he truly hates them anything. That's not straight he's like no he doesn't like it. I have actually seen him get aggressive. He wants to beat up a guy who was bisexual but he couldn't find him. Did he ever state. He wanted to have sex with Lisa PRUITT. Not that I can remember. You know a male by by the name of Ken Workman yes is he. A friend of Kevin. Young's yes I think so. Whenever I go up to our ATIKA being Kevin would go outside outside to see who is out there and if tex out there he would always go over there and say? Hey Hi how you doing. What's going on is Texan nickname for? Ken Workman yes. Did you discuss with anyone who you thought could be capable of killing Lisa Pruitt when you heard of murder. Yes Kevin Young and Dan's father other Dan's father Dan. Dan's father don't get along at all. Dan's father through dance. Friends is known as a very crazy man this. This is also viewed by his sister Debbie and most of her friends. Dan just got out of Cleveland Clinic and the reason that he came down to us is that one night he was reading a book and dance. Father came amen caught him reading it and flipped and that was the day before he got sent to the clinic. Why would you think that Dan's father would be capable of killing Lisa? Prove it was as as soon as I heard she was dead. I was thinking of who would have done it and I thought Dan wouldn't have done it but Dan's father would have done it but I- ruled that out last night when I found out that dance fathers send him outside to find out who was screaming. How did you hear about Dylan's father? Sending downside through Shane McGee then. I called Dance House in his sister told told me the same thing I ask. People knew Dan and why he wasn't sent away. And they basically said the same thing to your knowledge to D- android Ford's father have anything eighteen against Lisa Not as far as I know. When did these threats against the android fertilizer? PRUITT take place June of nineteen ninety. Do you you know if Kevin Young would carry any type of weapon. I think he had a knife a knife. That's it did you ever see him with the knife once or twice. Yeah Yeah I'd come downstairs and he'd have it out and say look at this and I'd say oh. Yeah whatever I think it was a switchblade or a lock knife I guess yes. It was standard black or Brown. I can't remember. Is there anything else that you wish to add to the statement there was a person. He talked to Pete man I think he's seventeen or eighteen. He's a senior at Shaker. Pete was the only one who could really stand Kevin. They talked a lot and Pete tried to get Kevin Girlfriend and tried to make him not so much. Loser tried to get him to go out. This interview with Jonathan. George was important to detectives. Because Georgia's statement implicates three men as possible suspects for the murder of Lisa Pruitt while taking the attention off his friend. Damn there was another young man who knew Lisa would be sneaking over to visit Dan. Dan late the night that she was killed. His name was Ken Workman known simply as Techs to friends. Police asked Dan driver a few questions about him that day. So on Thursday September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. Ninety I'll start off with the with the phone calls. I had Becca boat right called once at about eight thirty and I bite it her over and then she told me she was was tired and was gonna go to sleep during the conversation. She also spoke to texts workman in one or both of us may be mentioned that Lisa becoming Over I also spoke to Chris Jones and invited him over and he called back and told me he was too tired and was going to go to sleep. I don't remember the Times on either one of those those calls but both were raped before ten PM. A TEX workman came over. It was sometime before nine pm and he and I were sitting outside aside when Lisa Pruitt came over at about nine pm in left five or ten minutes later while they were both there Texan. I joked about cutting LISA PRUITT's hair to my knowledge. However there was no physical contact between Texas and Lisa then? I walked lease at her car. She left and I went back. Attacks Workman who is in need of cigarettes. I gave him some money and at approximately ten PM. He left on my bicycle for Shaker Square. I went inside and came out again. Probably Eleven PM defined text waiting with a pack of cigarettes and he told me that he wasn't going to sleep over. I let them keep the change for rapid fair and and gave him. Some of the cigarettes then went inside and watch the news. Did you see Tex Workman. Leave your residence after after you gave him the cigarettes and if so which direction did he go i. I saw turn to exit the backyard of via the driveway. To the best of your knowledge. Describe describe what he was wearing wearing either a white pair of tennis shoes or a pair of Air WAC viper high tops. Not Certain what else he was wearing. Have you ever known. Ken Workman to take the bus back to his house. No but he definitely. He's definitely taken the rapid to my knowledge anyway. Did you have any contact whatsoever with. Ken Workman from the time. You're brought to Shaker Heights. Police Station at approximately three am on September Fourteenth Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety until noon on that same day know approximately. How far does Ken Workman live from Shaker Square between one and three blocks? But I can't say for certain to your knowledge. What is the relationship between and Ken Workman and Kevin Young such as are they close friends or not? Now they're they're not close friends but I don't believe they've ever been like hostile towards each other or anything. Something like that when Ken Workman returned from figure square to give you the cigarettes. Were your parents aware that you had return to your house or did you mention it to them at any time. Now they to my knowledge anyway they didn't know and I didn't mention it to them. Is there anything else that you I wish to add to this statement. Well Yeah I guess I just like to reassure you that I'll I'll tell you any new information when I remember it but I really have nothing else to say now. More Friends of Dan driver arrived at the Shaker Heights police station to give statements similar. Jonathan Georgia's that they had overheard Kevin Young say he wanted to murder Lisa pruitt route. The police learned that Kevin was due to leave town that Sunday to begin classes at Ohio. State University armed with the statements for multiple multiple teenagers. The detective secured a search warrant for the young family. Home Affidavit for search warrant of young residents Kevin Young Son of j Talbot Young Junior does reside on on away. Road Shaker Heights Ohio Ohio. This warrant states the Kevin Young New Lisa Pruitt and her boyfriend Daniel driver that in June of nineteen eighteen ninety at Arabic. Coffee House at Shaker. Square Cleveland Ohio. Kevin Young stated in the presence of several Shaker Heights high school students he desired to kill Lisa pro and Dan Dreifort that Kevin Young was seen at Arabic Coffee House. Cleveland Ohio on the evening meaning of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety and learned from Kenny. James Workman that Daniel driver was home for medical treatment that at the time and in the presence of witnesses Kevin Young became emotionally distraught crying uncontrollably and appeared angry intermittently that Kevin Young was observed. Walking in the Shaker Heights area toward South Woodland road at approximately eleven pm that evening that on September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety Kevin Young argued with friends about the homicide indicating facts known at this time only two investigative again authorities including preliminary findings from the Cuyahoga County. Coroner's office that the victim was not raped and further. The Kevin Young through reliable information said to be an unstable individual an ordinarily jealous of male female relationships and is known to carry a switchblade or lock knife. It is necessary to conduct this search in the night because this request is made at eleven forty five pm on September Fifteenth Nineteen Ninety Wendy and that Kevin Young is known to be leaving for Ohio State University on September Sixteenth Nineteen Ninety and the evidence sought is subject to you destruction if not retrieved at once while detectives -tective searched. The young family home. Kevin Young was formally interviewed by police. Detectives this interview occurred after midnight. That Saturday night Dan. I'm Lisa from band earlier this year and I got to be friends with Dan sister later on in March. I got to be friends with Dan. That's about the time I got to be friends with Lisa. I got to know her. I it wasn't really good friends with her. That's how I know them Thursday morning. I don't remember much. I remember hanging out at Arabica until about four pm it it might have been later than that time really meant nothing to me. At the time I went back around seven pm or eight PM. I waited until TEX got off work. We sat there there for a few minutes. The two of US went to the shack. He mentioned a potential Robitussin party at the Dreifort House. I'm almost positive that he mentioned that. Lisa and Chris Jones. We're going over to the driver towels at quarter to eleven PM. We paid our checks left the shack in headed our separate ways. I went home. I got there few minutes. After eleven o'clock I try to go to bed at around quarter to twelve and did not sleep well that night now. We're at Friday at eight thirty in the morning. My mom woke me up told me the taxes the door and wanted to talk to me. My mom already knew what happened to Lisa Techs told me that Lisa had been murdered and raped that night. You also mentioned stab wounds. I met up with text again slightly before noon at Arabica. It was there that he got hysterical. He was worried about people thinking that he did it because he loved his knife at the driver's house. Also when text mentioned the murderers. He told me that Lisa was found in the backyard of the Drivers House. Friday around noon Texan. I left for Arabica and headed for the shack. It was there that he was accusing Dan. dreifort of Lisa's murder. He was threatening to kill Dan of he found found out that Dan Killed Lisa. He also asked me to mention to the police. If I was questioned where I was with him Thursday night. I told him I would tell the police. We left the shack at quarter. Eleven as happened the also told me he was worried because he had no alibi. He said he left the dry for towels at eleven fifteen pm that evening. He told me that the bus US ran an hour. Late or took an hour caught a buzz. At Twelve Fifteen A.. And arrived home at twelve thirty. Am Friday afternoon before Debbie got in town on tax was a wreck. He was smoking like a fiend very scared and like I said accusing Dan's Reifer deb. Got In around one fifteen pm in the afternoon noon. Having caught the rapid going eastbound on the green road line for a while. She was convinced as well that her brother had killed his girlfriend Lisa. She had also heard rumors. Where's that Lisa had been? Raped prior to being murdered. Thought that her brother semen was in Lisa. I don't know what else to say. After the five o'clock news came on. It was pretty obvious to everyone everyone that Dan had not done it. I ran into Texas again at Arabica briefly. I was on my way to Coventry so I only stayed a little while he was then blaming naming a stranger that none of us know that was I think the last time I saw him Friday. He mentioned that he had been called in for questioning at least once as for today. Today I spent just about all day with Ken. It's Mojo and had very little contact with tax. I did see him tonight at the shack with Debbie and a lady named Becky I think her last name is Myers. Texts mentioned that he'd been called in four times. Now that brings us to when I was called in for questioning. I'm really worried that text did this. I hope it's not true but if he did this for me because of a crush on Lisa back around the time of the Germany trip. This'll be on my conscience forever. I've nothing more to say before given the statement were you advised of your constitutional rights and did you fully understand them. I was so advised. I understood them. Are you at the present time under the influence of any alcohol or drugs. I am not the mail you relate late to as techs. What is full name his name? Is Ken Workman you. State that when your mother woke you up on Friday morning and September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety eight thirty. Am that she had already heard about the death of Lisa Pra. How did she know this? A friend had called her. I don't remember who but I could ask her so that I understand you correctly. Ken Workman advise you on the morning of September Fourteenth Eighteen nineteen ninety to make sure you told the police that you are with him until ten forty five pm the previous evening is that correct. That's true did. Ken Workman ask you the Tel.. The please any other information relative to him he did not you stated when you saw can work men at a Rabah cut at about noon on September fourteenth nineteen ninety that he was hysterical. Could you explain what you mean. He was worried that people would think think he killed Lisa. He mentioned a knife of his that he thought was in the driver's house. He was also saying that he was convinced that Dan driver killed Lisa. We went to the shack at about out noon probably earlier. He was smoking a lot of cigarettes chain smoking after a while. We both kind of burst into tears. Techs told me I was the best friend it ever had. Have you ever known can workman to carry a knife. I cannot say for sure but I'm almost positive that he has carried a knife on occasion when you met. That can workman at Arabica later on later on in the evening of Thursday September thirteenth. Nineteen Ninety did you observe him to be riding a bicycle bicycle. I did not see him with or riding a bicycle that night. To the best of my recollection on the same evening September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. You stated you left Arabica and went to the shack with Ken Workman did he have a bike with him. Then I did not see a bike so that I understand you correctly when you walked from Rabah to the shack can workman also walked. He walked with me from Arabica to the Shack on September thirteenth. Nineteen ninety you when you left the shack and walked home. Which route did you follow Shaker? Boulevard to Van Aken north of Arabica from Van Aken. I took like a left at the traffic intersection onto drexel more from drugs more. I took Woodbury a took woodbury on away. Road where anway school is then around the school oval to their. Did you ever have sexual intercourse with Lisa pruitt. I did not to to your knowledge. Do you know anyone who did. Dan told me that he did. I'm pretty sure that Dan was her first. That's the way he described it to me. Dan Dandruff I or anyone else. Invite you or asked you to come over to the dreifort house in the evening hours of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. Nobody invited me. Did Ken Workman tell you what time he got home. After he left the Drivers House. He said twelve thirty a M. How did he say he got home? He said he took the bus. He also said it didn't come for an hour. Did he tell you where he caught the bus and where let him off he did not. Is there anything you wish to add to your statement be like crap and I really need him sleep breath. Nothing of value was found during the search of the young family home. They had no confession no murder weapon. No bloody clothes and Kevin's father alibi him. They were playing video games at the time. Lisa was murdered. 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I got some money from my mom and I waited for the rapid and went and got off Shaker Boulevard and Lee went to dance dance house and just talked is about fifteen minutes until his parents came home. They've been shopping. I think and I remember. I had to help them carrying groceries. They asked me how I was doing because I hadn't seen them in a long time. I think Dan was on the phone so I went out in the back. Him smoked a cigarette. Then he came out we were just talking about some of the hospital. He was at who was weird guy. Telephone call again and I just sat back outside and he went in to get it and he came back out and Lisa Pruitt came over. She said I could stay for fifteen minutes because her dad was waiting for in the car so Dan was showing her haircut Astor she wanted hers cutting was playing around and then he went around the corner. I don't know what they did. Dan came back around and she left. I guess we just sat there. Did he played his guitar and then he said that his parents were expected to leave around ten PM. But I could stay if I wanted to without his parents knowing so he told me to take the bike and go get him a pack of cigarettes so I took his bike and went up to the gas station Shaker Square which is right behind Rebecca than it went over the era Becca and sat down there. I was talking to Kevin Young in stand cramer. He just got off work and came over and sat down in. Kevin was all messed up then he was crying about some kidney manny or something like that because you went over to Iraq. He just kept crying. Insane wish manny was here here. I wish manny was here. Stan called his dad to come get them. Maybe like five or ten minutes later. His Dad came to pick them up. Then Kevin was crying. He's just kept crying. Ryan saying something about Manny and I told him to shut up then. We laughed and I went up Shaker Boulevard and he went the other way. I think it was down south woodland or something right before I got Dan South. I stopped like a little field thing and I use the bathroom in the field then I got back on. Dan's bike can went to his house. And I got there and I give them a cigarettes and he said Chris Jones was coming over and Lisa Pruitt and they were coming over I liked twelve thirty. Am and he asked me. If I wanted to stay talk to them. I told him no I was just GonNa go home. I gave him his bike and he put it in the garage and he went back in and I left. I went to the rapid stop and just sat there until it was around twelve midnight. I call my mom and astor call the rapid see what time they're supposed to come. And then I gave you the phone number to call me back at the payphone in after I got off the phone with her I sat down by the rapid tracks in the rap game. I don't remember how long it was. Then I got on and the rapid driver said something like like it was running late and he was sorry. I didn't say nothing to them. Until I got Shaker Square I just take it easy and then I went home and I got home and told my mom that I wasn't staying Dan because I didn't feel right about it called Deb Dry for college and we talked about how we missed each other. I got off the phone with her. I went to sleep the next day. I had to get up early because I had to go school and get my work permit so I got to school school. I went to Mr Wlaz office. Some lady told me he was with some girl who got murdered parents or something. It was the lady who is the Secretary for the office. She told me that and I told her I was just GonNa go to one of my friends houses until he came back and she said go ahead. I went to Dan dry hurts. I seen all the police and I thought maybe he commits suicide suicide or something so I started up the driveway but halfway up the drive. These two policemen stopped and asked me what I was doing. I said I'd come to see Dan. They told me wasn't home. I asked them what was going on. They told me to go. Watch the news. The one policeman asked me my name in where I went to school. What I was doing out of school that I went back to school and went to Mr Annandale's office in asthma fee? New was going on. He said a girl was murdered over there and I asked him the the name of who was killed in. He didn't say anything. I left his office on. I started back to laws office and I asked this girl who was killed and she said Lisa Pruitt PRUITT and I went to Mr Wlaz office in asked Michelle Vita Tonio who died. She said Lisa Pruitt. She was crying and I went in and got my work permit from Mr in. I went to Kevin Young South to tell them his mom. Answer the door and she wouldn't let me in because she didn't know I was. I told her it was really the important. She asked me if it had anything to do with. Lisa's death and I told her yeah and asked her if she told Kevin and she said No. I asked her if she wanted me to tell him and she said yeah she went up in woke up and and then me and him went downstairs to the pool table. I told them at least had been killed and he was like all all right and he said he'd meet at Arabic at around four PM and then I went to see if Jeremy Webster was at school so I could talk to him he was outside the school or anything and I started walking back and I seen Clark and some other guy in Clark was going crazy because the Lisa. I got sick of hearing hearing him so I walked home. I think when Rebecca to see if anybody was there and there was nobody in there so I left then I went home then. I call the police station to see if Dan was here or if any of his parents were here and somebody let Dan's dad on the phone and I told him deb was coming back then officer Mullany told me to come down and make a statement and I asked him if I could come in around four pm because waiting for Deb to come in. I got off the phone with him and I went to the rapid just sat there and Kevin came over. He got to Rebecca Lot sooner than four. PM then we was sitting there for a while. We got some coffee the at the shack. And then we've seen Jerry Izenberg. Ken Mitzvah Moto. Get off one of the rapids. So we went outside and Kevin Talk to them. And I walked away. Kevin came back and said they were going to a bank or something then. We walked over to Arabic and I think it was Dave Brannigan. I talked to and and he asked me how I was doing now. I said all right and then he asked me something else but I can't remember what it was. I left and went back to the rapid stop waited needed for DEB and she finally got off the only went back to my house and then I told Deb I had to go to the police station in. My mom wanted to come with me but I wouldn't letter. We both left my house Rebecca and then we got a ride from some guy named Bob so the police station. I got to the police station. And that's it before given this statement your vise of your constitutional rights. Did you fully understand them. Yes are you presently the under the influence of any alcohol or drugs. No was your mother aware that you are planning on spending the night at Dan Drivers House. Yes when did you tell your mother that you're planning on staying at Dan Draft House. When I called? Danny he said something about it and I said I wasn't sure. Do you know what time these arrangements were made. I don't know it was when I call Dan in his house to see when I could come over. Have you stayed at the driver's house before when Debbie was not home. Now that was. Can you estimate how many nights you stayed at the driver's house when Debbie was home a lot the last month before she went to college. I stayed there almost every night. More Debbie drivers parents where you were staying there. No you stated that you took dance bike and rode it to Shaker Square to buy cigarettes for Dan Drivers in yourself on Thursday September Thirteenth Nineteen Nineteen Ninety at approximately ten pm that correct. Yes described the bicycle. That you road to Shaker Square. It was a blue mountain bike. Like that. A men's or ladies' bike. It was a men's bike. What brand of cigarettes did you buy mama regular box? Just one pack. After he purchased a cigarette she went to Arabica. Is that correct. Yes while you're at a Rabah So how did you secure the bike in where I didn't. I just laid it up by the window at Rebecca in the back so I can see it. How long approximately did you talk to stay in Kramer on that evening? or how long was he sitting with you. Maybe like fifteen. May maybe like ten or fifteen minutes. Do you work at Arabica at all that night. No while at Arabica did you mention to Kevin Young and can stand cramer that there was going to be a Robitussin party at damned dreifort House that evening. I didn't say there was GONNA be. I said there might be because because that's what dad said. Before he went in the hospital he said the day he got out. He was going to have a rebel party. What did you tell Kevin Young and Stephen Kramer about who was coming coming over today Andrey for his house that evening I remember telling them anything? What did you know about anything that was going to happen drive for his house that evening? All I new is that Lisa and Chris were coming over V.. Ever attended a Robeson party at Dan drivers. Yes how many times times did this occur. Only once what was in your opinion the result of the people who drink robitussin at this party that is the fact the Robitussin on them. And how did it affect their actions. They just went crazy. Dan told me that makes them feel strong and said something about some kind of trance. They go into when they get into this trance. Whoever they see at the end of this hallway they do whatever they can to get them out of the hallway? They kill if they have to. Sometimes they just knocked the person out of the hallway. That's what he said. Would you explain what this hallway means. And he said one day that everybody's got a hallway and when you take Robitussin and brings you back to your hallway and it's like if you take it you you see all way it's like a mild form of acid. Have you ever done robitussin. And if so what was the effect of yes I fell asleep. Have you ever seen Dan dreifort under the influence of Robitussin. The only time I seen him he was just coming down from it. I never seen seen him when he was in the middle of not coming out from it. What was his conditions at that time? And how did he act. He just sits there and stared like he was asleep but has is open. When was this Robitussin party in there? It was after I got out of Rehab and before he went into the Psych Ward Rebecca Boat Right Andrea Conrad. Jim Hanna me. Dan and deb was their dead Messenger. was there too. That's everybody to the best of your knowledge today android. I have a Robitussin party last Thursday night. I think he did on Thursday evening September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety after you brought after you bought the pack of cigarettes and went to Rava. Did you leave a radical with anyone and go over to the shack. No I left with Kevin and I went down to the Shaker Boulevard and he went down South Woodland when you left a rabbit cut to return to the driver's house with the cigarettes. Which route did you take our down Shaker Boulevard to Lee and then in down Lee prior to read in the driver's house? You stated you stopped vacant lot. A few doors from the driver's houses is that correct. Yes was that to urinate. Yes approximately how far into the lot did you go. I put Dan's bike down. Where the entrances and I walked a couple of steps in did you take the bike into law and if so how far I took the bike to like the edge of the law where it was in the grassy area like a couple of feet after you finish urinating and return to the drive towards house? How did you make them aware that you had returned as throwing rocks at his bedroom window? Did he indicate to you that he had heard you throwing the rocks at his window. Now he never said. Do you come outside to meet you. Yes I was standing over by the garage and he came out Odin told me to go back and then he came out the back with the door with his dog. I told him I wasn't gonNA stay. What did you do with the bike? Just gave it to him and he put it in the garage. Did you physically see Dan. DREIFORT put his bike in the garage. Yes was the garage Asia open at the time or did he have to open the door. The garage was partway up. It wasn't all the way up when you left Drivers House House and walked to the rapid route. Did you take leader Shaker Boulevard. Do you stay on the sidewalk on the west side of of Lee road all the way to Shaker Boulevard or do exit the sidewalk at any point now when you arrived at the rapid station. Asian at Shaker and Lee. was anyone else there. Did you encounter anyone that you knew while walking from the driver's house to the rapid you know when you finally got on the rapid. was there anyone else on. The rapid now described the rapid driver ever had a conversation with big black guy with a beard. Where did you acts that? The Rapid Shaker Square right by the shack on your way walking from the rapid. Stop to your apartment building. Did you see anyone that that you knew no when you arrived home. who was there my mom and her Fiance Boyfriend Rob Cornell to do you have a conversation with them and I just told my mom? I WanNa stay at dance tonight. Approximately what time did you call Debbie. Dreifort from your apartment probably around twelve all thirty. Am Did you dial her direct at a residence at Ohio University. Yes when you called. Did she answered the phone directly or did someone else pick it up. I one of her friends picked it up. I did you know her name now. How long did did you talk to Debbie dreifort about thirty minutes after that you went to sleep yes? Did you leave your apartment at any time. Between the time you spoke to Debbie drive for on the morning of September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety now on September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety when you first learned of the death of Lisa Pruitt who it did you hear or did somebody tell you how she was murdered. Somebody had told me she was hit with something. Did anyone tell you that she had had been stabbed now. Did anybody tell you that she had been raped now. I heard that on the news. What time did you hear that on the news at noon when you went to Kevin Young's house on the morning of September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety approximately? What time did you get there? Probably like nine or nine thirty a. m. something like that at that time when you advise Kevin Young of the death of Liza Pruitt. Did you tell l. him that she had been stabbed and rate now. Are you absolutely sure of that. Yes during the same conversation eastern with Kevin Young at approximately nine or nine thirty. Am did you tell Kevin that you thought Dan Dreifort had done it. Yes why did you say that because on the news they said they had found her in his backyard and she was supposed to come over and see him. So what made you think that. Even though you heard where she was found that Dan drive for would be capable of or want to murder. Lisa Pruitt I just thought if he did robo bad night that he might have. I don't know do you know for a fact and did you see Dan. dreifort consume any robitussin on the evening of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety or of the early morning hours of September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety now did did you make the statement to Kevin Young that you are afraid that if Dan Dreifort did he might have used a knife of yours. That was left at the driver's house pals. Yes what kind of knife is this. It's a butterfly. I left it in Deb's room and she told me that she took it with her. When did she you tell you this asked her what happened to it as soon as she came home and she said she took it to college with her? Did you tell Kevin Young to tell the police that you were with him until ten forty forty five. PM The previous evening yes. I told him that while I was at the shack. Why so he wouldn't forget to tell you guys that I was with him so he wouldn't get in trouble and I wouldn't get in trouble? Did you. Make a statement. Kevin Young down on the evening of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety that Dan dry I I told Leeza pruitt that. He wanted to cut her hair. You wanted you to hold her down why he did it. He was just playing around when he said it. Did he make that statement. Yeah do you have a pair of scissors in his hands when he made that statement now clippers in his hand. Did you ever temperature Sir have sexual intercourse with Lisa pruitt. Now on Saturday September Fifteenth Nineteen Ninety in the evening hours us. Were you at the Dreifort home. Yes I think it was from Navy about eleven until twelve thirty am dude. Anythin- thin happened between the Times at the driver's house. That got you angry or made you lose your temper. Yes deb's dad was just getting on my nerves and me and deb left the house. He was nitpicking at deb. And it was Kinda getting on my nerves on Friday night. deb seeing kind of like a flashlight in the bushes and I got pissed off and went down to the street to see what it was. But I didn't see anything since the murder of Lisa. PRUITT DOC of you threaten to kill anyone. Yes who when I thought it was. Dan and I went down the street on Friday night. I was going to do the same thing to them. As whoever did that. To Lisa from the time you heard about leaser Pruett's death until right now. Have you had any contact with. Lisa's parents. Had some contact with some lady. See that was there with Lisa's mom and I told her if Lisa hidden diaries or any journals or anything to turn them into the police because they might have some information would did she. She say she asked me my name and said Okay this woman tell you that leads did in fact have a diary now. How how would you describe your relationship with Kevin Young? We're friends until he like starts going nuts. Would you consider him to be your best friend and sometimes would you relate to me what you told me previously about the information you had on David Brannigan. David told me that he was on the street that night and he was walk in and a cop asked him what he was doing on the street and he said nothing and that he walked a girl home and the cop took his name and everything then he told deb that he had his knife on him that night and last night he showed to us me and DEB DEB. DEB asked him if he's still at his life and he said Yeah folded out of his pocket described. This night for me is just had brass knuckles and the knife pops out of the side approximately. How long is this knife about two and a half three inches long just blade? How long is the blade on your butterfly knife that you described about six inches? Did you ever have any kind of relationship with Lisa Pruitt or did you want to know to both questions when you boarded the rapid Shaker and leave that night shortly after midnight on September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety do. Do you remember what the sign said on the rapid. The sign said Shaker Square the butterfly knife that you described as yours. Where's it now? It's an Athens Ohio. It's been there since the sixth of September. We'll handle does it have metal. It's got holes else. Children the handle to your knowledge. Why would debbie dry for take your knife to college with her? 'cause I gave it to her so wouldn't cause me no trouble. What kind of trouble spike carrying it? Because I'm on probation for truancy and running away and stuff prior to get in on the rapid shortly after midnight on the fourteenth of September. Nineteen ninety. Did you see the same rapid driver before. And if so where going the opposite way. While I was sitting on the tracks waiting to go to Shaker Square he pass me up going eastbound then came back westbound and pick me up during the day Friday September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety two did. Did you have any contact with any schoolteacher counselor or teachers other than getting your work permit from Mr Val Miss Annandale Dale. I think I called them earlier that day to see if there was anything else going on I think I called him one send deb called him once. Is there anything else that you wish to add to your statement now but I just remember Dave be tried to sell me a stolen gone about two weeks ago. It by this time Shaker Heights. Detectives must have known that someone was lying to them. Everyone was pointing fingers at everyone. Everyone else everyone who knew that Lisa pruitt was going to be a Dan dreifort. The night she was murdered. Seem to have an alibi as loose as alibis could be so. who was lying? Dan driver tax or was it. Kevin Young like dance friends wanted. The police needs to believe just when it couldn't get any more complicated in walks eighteen year old Stanley. Kramer Breath Stan. Could you stay starting from Thursday September thirteenth nineteen ninety the approximate time. You went to work at A.. Rabah that evening and relate relate to me as best as you can recall the events of the evening which relate to you of who you may have seen who you may have talked due to an anything that you can remember about that evening. Okay scoops closes about ten and after we closed usually do the mopping at about ten fifteen gene pm. When I was mopping I noticed Kevin Young was sitting at a table right by scoops he was emotionally depressed? It looked like he was crying and seeing songs. Longs I know some of the songs he was singing. I've heard him when I was younger. I continued mopping for about five ten minutes and I saw Kenny Workman come. And it's it with Kevin so I wasn't as worried as I was when I saw Kevin from the first time about what was wrong. I pretty much finished up at about about. I'd say about ten thirty PM. And that's when I clocked out and I decided to join Kevin and Kenny at the table. The conversation up was Kevin and was upset because a friend of his. I don't remember the name at all was in Iraq. I don't know if he was living or dead but Kevin was like hallucinating. Wanting him to walk walk through the Arab cadore so Kevin could give them a hug. Say Hello have you been and so forth I called my dad at about roughly ten. PM I went to get a pack of cigarettes. I at about ten thirty five PM and when I got back I sat down and smoked one cigarette. Which takes me roughly five minutes? I got up and called my dad. Roughly ten forty pm to come and give me a ride home. I went back to the table and the same conversation was up at the table. I was when I left. I have no awareness of what they were talking about at all. My Dad got to the back of Arab at about ten forty five pm which is when I say goodbye by two Kevin and Kenny. Yeah Kevin Kenny I went outside to get into the car. My Dad asked me to go in and get them. A coke came back back in Kevin. Kenny were walking out the front door to go home. Which from my knowledge is where they were going Kenny was writing Dandruff dreifort spike which he had returned that evening and when me and my father pulled out of the driveway I tried to get him the coke. I saw Kevin Young walking up a street. I think it was drexel more alone and it looked like he was headed home. What did you do after that? I had a lot of studying to do that evening and I went home. I watch. It's a little bit of the news just to get caught up on current events like I usually do. I went upstairs to do my homework. It was rough day and I had a little bit of homework to do so. I did have a little bit drink a few beers after I finish my homework I pretty much crashed. I went to sleep got ready for school the next day when you are at Aramco with texts workman and Kevin when young on Thursday night. Did you hear any conversation about a possible party at Deandra. Vard's that night now. I did not. Were you aware from the conversation between texts and Kevin Young. The Dan driver was back in town. we all knew from that day. Kenny was in school that day. I'm almost positive he was. That was the day that Kenny did. Drop out by do know for a fact that we all knew that Dan was back in town. When did you first learn that Dan Dreifort was back in town? It was roughly in between the hour of twelve twelve noon and one PM Thursday noon. Go ahead and explain the same thing you said before. Okay I was I don't have a sixth seventh eighth period so Alexi ratchets in a friend of mine that graduated in eighty nine was up at the school. Ease usually up there just driving around around. I asked him if he would drive me up to the gas station to pick up a pack of smokes. He did so and when I came back usually park right outside the science wing of the school I looked out the window and I saw what I thought was Danny Dreifort which I didn't know at first and I called his name and it was Danny and he walked over to the car and we. We just reunited started to talk and I saw them throughout the rest the afternoon until about four PM. Which I had to go home to go to work? WHO's a friend of yours? And what was his name. Alexi Racha Sin Lexi. Alexey that night data. When you left with your dad you state us? All Kevin Young walking up drugs more toward Shaker Heights. Is that correct yes. Did you see texts workman leave. I did not see him leave. Steve I knew where his bike was parked. It was parked right outside the window of where we were sitting and the bike was gone so I figured they must have left anytime. We're you aware that Kevin having an texts workman had left. Arabica walked over to a place called the shack. I have no aware of it. Do you know where the shack is. Doc where's that it's the rapid transits restaurant right on Shaker Boulevard in Shaker Square. What hours did you work at a Rabah On Thursday night from my knowledge it was five. PM To close which is at ten pm which I stated earlier. How will you know Kevin Young? You'd I know him pretty well. He used to play Little League baseball with him when we were both younger and we had missed each other for a while. After the team ended that summer he went back to school and I went back to school. I was still in the middle school at the time I got up to Think the eighth grade I when I I started going up to the high school Dec- other friends of mine. I met back up with Kevin and we started talking and just getting caught back up so I've known them roughly Lee well since about the eighth grade which is since I'm a senior would be nineteen ninety five thousand nine hundred five. That's what I figure describe for Kevin Young as you know him. What would you know about him? He had a normal teenage life. Did what most teenagers do drink. Go Go to parties on the weekend from what I remember. He did quite well in school. He wasn't one of the types of slack off that much with the school work because he was really concerned with his life when he got out out of school he just graduated the year. Nineteen ninety from the Shaker Heights high school. And he's a part of my group at Shaker Square Arabiya lately What I've been hearing what being Kevin been doing which was maybe about once or twice is drinking which seems like Kevin is having somewhat of an alcoholic problem problem which somewhat scares me? Kevin because I know Kevin quite well and he was really interested in baseball and he started smoking and drinking which surprised me that Kevin would do something like like that that heavily. Could you describe for me what you know in regards to any relationship between Kevin Young Lisa. pruitt okay I have known. I'm known that for the last two years Kevin has had a crush. I don't know if you want to say crush on Lisa He really was not to distract you. Go ahead and describe the relationship between Kevin Lisa Last two years Kevin has been in marching band with Lisa and they were pretty close since marching band is pretty much a big family To my knowledge Kevin has had a crush on Lisa. The last two years and his knowledge came about Dan. Dry for going out with Liza He was very angry distracted about Dan going out Lisa not him. Did he tell you that or is that just from behavior that you observe I. I have heard that from Danny dry for Kenny Workman and once from Kevin Young could you identify the members and kids. You're referring to when you say your group Yes In the group are Kenny Workman. Kevin Young Ken mets Emoto Jerry. Izenberg Judd Osgood Sheena Messina. Ah That's her last name Another one I'm just thinking of now. Is John Hannan and Alexi righteous in at least until he started working at Arabiya and there are a few more are that just. Don't go to Shaker Heights high school so they're usually not there all the time. How will you know Kenny Workman since Kenny's come to Shaker Heights? High School will as a freshman which was last year. I've known him quite well for both pretty much the same or crazy or both crazy well in the means of doing the usual things that we he would do in the Arabic group which is drink every once in a while just party go down to Coventry look for fights We were crazy when evening and we became blood brothers so I pretty much say that me and Kenny Workman or to me tax. Our Darn close described tax. What what kind of person? He is Who Tax? When he came up to the high school he looked like he wasn't as enthusiastic as a normal Tina's for high school? He was like different. He really did not want to be there. It's like high school wasn't for him. I mean that I'm used to it with our group but people normally don't like high school that had to be there was the literal dislike. He stayed in school. He didn't go most of the time. We did a lot of cutting at the end of second semester. Last year I dropped out of school which I really stopped. Stop going to the high school it was maybe about. I dropped out of the Shaker Heights. High School High School was then for me. I was a junior at the time. I don't know I just didn't like school. I came back up every once in a while until I got a job at Universal Printing which my dad owns I was coming up to the school and when tax or any of the group was cutting. I'd be joining them. which most of the time I did see Kenny Workman after the last year? Here this summer I was on vacation most of the summer so I didn't really see in that much. Emma Debbie Dry for had been together which has been a weird relationship broken up. I think about three times and other engaged to get married which really confuses me I mean. I'm glad that they are but I don't see how both parties are really wanting to do that. But this year I went back to school I enrolled again for some reason. They put me up as a senior. And I'm happy about that. Kenny was clicked in his freshman at the Shaker Heights. High school he failed last year. We were doing the same thing pretty much at the beginning of this year We were both caught smoking outside the school which she's in the rulebook illegal and we're both suspended for three days which my parents didn't know about. So hopefully they won't hear from this Kenny. After being suspended did he went into Richard Blah. One of the he's assistant principal and was talking to him and he asked if he would tell. Mr Law would tell Kenny's mom That he really does not want to be in school. 'cause Kenny's mom is one of those kinds of MOMS. I don't really want to listen to the sun. They just think it's coming out of their mouth because because they're sick of school. But after Richard Flaw Mr Law I mean talked to Kenny's mom. They've got the papers. Signed and Kenny dropped out of school after that a big change came in Kenny. Any A fulltime job. He started dressing. Nice he was like really getting his life back in order but he didn't know what he was going to do. We didn't know if he was going to become come at Druggie to just a regular bomb and the farthest away was actually get a fulltime job and actually looked good which he is now. That's pretty much. All the knowledge I know will his death. Could you describe what you know about Robitussin Cough Syrup in terms of how it fits in with your group of friends the only the people I know that have taken robitussin to get a high. Are Kenny Workman Danny dreifort. I think I'm almost positive. That Danny and Kenny were the two that found around that it did something to you. those are the only two people emberley positively sure about trying to the best of your knowledge. How many times have either either Danny or Kenny tried robitussin? Well me for one have known him to walk around when he has problems when he doesn't want to go home he just walks around a lot just to get that stuff off his chest he just. He doesn't want to really go home at his house. His mom is the carrying. Kind show. Ask What's wrong. He doesn't really want to tell anyone about it except someone from the group but if we're not there for him or if there's something else up or if we're having a phone conversation he just won't bring it up with us. I have known him to walk around a few times by himself. Have you ever had any knowledge of him sneaking out of his house without his parents knowing it. I know he is eighteen and if his his rules are the same as mine. He doesn't really have to well since he graduated. I don't think gas to worry about sneaking out. I don't think he has a curfew on the night of September thirteenth. Nineteen Ninety when you returned home from work from Arabica. Did you leave your house after you got home for any reason. No I did not. Were your parents awake. When you retired for the evening on September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety? No they early went to bed at about eleven thirty PM and I was still Philip. Studying was anybody else in your household about the time. Now when you said you were studying and had a few beers to drink that night do you have an idea how how many beers you had roughly sixty eight do you or do any of your friends that we have mentioned so far or maybe some of them. We haven't regularly Wurley or not regularly carry any type of weapon from my knowledge techs out of butterfly which Debbie Dreifort took to college with her when she laughed about a week ago go. She took it to college because Tex really had no need for it. can met. Some Moto has a switchblade. Would any of this be used against you know one of friends. Oh No okay because I have one myself which I lost. It was a butterfly knife. I showed it to someone and like walked over to them around the car and I came back and forgot to retrieve it so I haven't seen it for roughly two to three weeks. Oh and that's pretty much it out of the group do you know. Oh who has your butterfly no idea. At all. From my knowledge it could be on someone's dresser to someone actually giving it back to me and putting it in my room without me knowing right put it. Do you have any direct knowledge or have you ever heard of Lisa Pruitt sneaking out of her house to go see Dan dry for anybody else. No I know of no past right. Don't even know why she did this. Evening Lisa's not the kind of girl that would sneak out. She has a foreign exchange student. Didn't at her house. That's the second reason. Why wouldn't think that she would sneak out unless it was very important to see Dan that evening so that I understand you correctly you didn't really know? Lisa disapprove. Well is that correct not as well as other people. You wouldn't have any idea who appro- it might confide in as far as a female friend not off the top of my head not never really close friends. Did you ever meet her parents. No I was planning on going over there this weekend but there are too many people were there and I didn't go over there. I'd rather it be fewer amount of people over there. Do you have any knowledge of the feelings or either Mr Dreifort Lyford or Miss Dreifort on how they feel about. Dan Gone out with Lisa That they had both approved of it. But I'm really wondering about Mr Dreifort. From my knowledge. He supposedly supposedly had a crush on Lisa. I don't along it's been but he's really supposedly liked her. I mean it's a rumor is not straight facts. I didn't hear it from from Dan or dance father but he has had a crush on her and she has been going over from what I know she has been going over to the driver. It's house to see if Dan's home yet here of any messages from Dan as where Dan was. He can't write out to people of the family from I mean if Brennan was in there and they cannot except for family members. Can you tell me who you heard this from about Mr Dreifort having a crush on Lisa. I'm not sure the Girls First Name mm-hmm but Halley Warren. Who just heard it from Abbey Wilson? She is a senior at the high school and she is in the yearbook. Halley McPherson Curson Abby Abby. Is this a rumor that you heard prior to Lisa's death or after her death after our own we heard it this afternoon on my way to the funeral from Halley and she did not want me to repeat it to anyone for reasons of she didn't want it to slip out which I have no idea why I because I know I'd heard on behalf of the other kids at Shaker we want. Whoever did this behind bars? Is there anything else you can think of that. You've I've heard thought saw or otherwise. In the last few days that might be a value or interest to us trying to figure out what happened to Lisa. pruitt thought could have happened in my mind. From hearing the knowledge of a possible linking Lisa dance. Father and Dan and Dan's father were supposedly out the evening. Lisa's incident happened. They were both in the same room and they both heard a scream. This is from what I know for a fact or at least from the papers. Dan's father other told Dan to go out and see what happened if he can see anything at all. Dan came back. Didn't hear anything and you pretty much know the whole. Oh thing after that. He went back after the police were called. They went out. They didn't see anything. Dan went back out for his bike. Looked around found. Lisa's bike came back out to the police. And that's when the body was found I don't know if dance father and him were still in the same room that Dan's father might have told Dan that look. You're going to be looked at as being a suspect in this because Lisa was heading over here. I'll say that you were mean you were in the same room talking or or whatever and that's when we heard it for when I can think I don't know if it could possibly happen but that might have never happened. Dan's father might have of her Dan talking on the phone to Lisa a matter outside before she actually got the house. That's really off the top. My head that possibly could have happened which the skid marks on the sidewalk could explain the corner ones is maybe his father maybe walking around the corner surprising her and asking to halt saying Oh hello and they walking towards the house us Mr Dry for possibly thinking about it or riding a bike still turning around again abruptly and having to slam on the brakes again to describe describe the other ones on the road a her there were two skidmarks one on south woodland a one on Lee. Is that true. Whatever over I I could picture Mr Dreifort doing something like that? I don't want to say it because I like Mrs Dreifort rumors from Debbie Dry for Danny driver. They consider their father is a Hitler which really having the full meaning of why they call them this or why the nicknamed came up but he was like strict. He was one of the stricter parents around the neighborhood with the kids. Were you aware or have. You heard how Lisa was supposed to meet Dan that evening or how she was supposed to let him know she was there. The only way I could figure is way we always do it is Wayne girlfriend. Sneak out or boyfriend sneak out. The parents are up in bed. The one is waiting by his window to in the family room they have TV room which looks out. There's a window along the side. There's a fence because you're aware of that from looking around. She could have easily Parker bike right there and knocked on the window. Do anything like that. I mean do those windows. I know that you can't really hear anything if the TV's playing because I've been there waiting for Dan this weekend when I was going over to visit him to see what he was doing. I couldn't hear the cars when the TV was playing. Uh if that can be of any help guys I just thought about that. uh-huh Shaker Heights is brought to you by hallmark. Sometimes when I say I love you it feels like a habit you know but when I say I love you in a hallmark card it feels different. It's like I love you that you can hold onto Valentine's Day is Friday. February fourteenth. VISIT VISIT HALLMARK DOT com slash garage. Define a Valentine's Day card for everyone you care about and use our Promo Code Garage to get twenty percents off your card. PURCHASE THAT'S HALLMARK DOT com slash garage to find a Valentine's Day card today Shaker Heights directed and produced by True Crime Garage co-produced co-produced by the philosophy of crime and narration written by James Renner. Stay tuned for episode three.

Kevin Young Dan Kevin Lisa Pruitt PRUITT Lisa Nineteen Ninety Shaker Square murder Ken Workman Dan Drivers Shaker Heights Dan. dreifort Debbie dreifort Shaker DEB DEB Kenny Workman Dan dreifort Kevin Right Lisa Pruitt
Bren and Celeste Ng on Little Fires Everywhere

Unlocking Us with Brene Brown

1:05:34 hr | 2 months ago

Bren and Celeste Ng on Little Fires Everywhere

"Hi I'm neighbor out and this is unlocking us. Today's episode of the PODCAST is brought to you by parachute home. Their mission is to make you feel at home. There everyday. Essentials are designed in Los Angeles and responsibly manufactured. By the world's best craftspeople they only use finest materials to make long lasting quality home essentials. I am a huge fan of the parachute home linen sheets and I have a linen. Do they cover as well? So I live in Houston as many of you know where it is already ninety degrees with ninety percent humidity. It's the kind of hot that you walk outside and like your hair stuck to the back of your neck and your glasses fogged up and you can't see that kind of hot and so during the summer. I wear a lot of linen. I prefer clothes. That don't touch you during the summer and so I thought well I wonder if linen sheets would work like that and it turns out that these kind of do they are amazing they are they feel very defillo weird because they give you that kind of flip side of the pillow cool an kind of area and refreshing but they also keep you warm when my ceiling fans on like one speed below helicopter. I don't wake up either freezing or hot. They're just really comfortable. They've got several starter sets for the linen sheet so I tried it and she's one time in a hotel. I thought they were awesome and actually how I discovered parachute is I googled. Like best linen sheets and these were high rated and people like them and again. They're super organic. They are made without any chemicals or synthetic softeners. They're just like real linen. So if you love that and you're ready for some readable summer bed linens this would be the one you can visit parachute home dot com slash bb for free shipping and returns and again it's parachute home dot com slash. Bb and weirdly. If you like to wear clothes that don't touch you and you like to feel like just free and not too hot not too cold. Try the sheets. They're pretty amazing. Okay all this is little fires everywhere week. Not just this episode. This week we have two episodes. The first one is with us in who wrote the book. The second is with Kerry Washington and Reese Witherspoon who both star in the series on. Hulu and executive produced the series. I am a huge fan of this book and a huge fan of the series. So I talked to Celeste. Eating my favorite bio of hers is really her twitter bio that just says fiction writer science nerd ex Cleveland or embarrassingly sincere novels. Everything I never told you little fires everywhere of course. A bio by a writer no question. She is actually the author of two novels. Everything I never told you which I'm just starting because of how much I love the little fires everywhere. Everything I never told You New York Times bestseller a New York. Times notable book of two thousand fourteen and Amazon's number one best book of two thousand fourteen. It was also named a best book of the year. By like a dozen publications little fires everywhere was published by. Penguin press in September twenty seventeen. It's also New York Times Bestseller Amazon number. Two Best Book and Best Fiction Book of two thousand seventeen and it was the winner of several awards. So Celeste grew up in Pittsburgh. Pennsylvania and Shaker Heights Ohio. Which as you'll see in this podcast. I believe Shaker Heights is just one of the main characters of little fires everywhere. God It's such a good book in it such a good series so last graduated from Harvard University. She has an MFA from the University of Michigan and she won the Hopwood award her fiction. Essays appeared everywhere of the New York Times. One story the Guardian. She's also a recipient of the pushcart prize and a fellowship from the National Endowment for the arts tack in. Get your walking shoes on. However you become one with unlocking US pastas and meet Celeste Ing. It's such a fun conversation. I loved it as a writer and I loved it as a reader and a watcher. Thank you so last for being on unlocking US. Thank you so much for having me. I have like a million questions for you. It would be so much more helpful if you could download me into your brain which is attached a cable to one end of my head and the other end in your head and it'll just go straight across. I need to see how you think i. I wish I knew because it would certainly make my future. Writing Process is a lot easier if I could figure out how I wrote this novel and my first one and trying to again. What I'm learning is that every project seems to be its own completely different animal and I feel like I have to start from the ground up in sort of learning what the story is and how the stories put together and who the characters are so. It's it's of a mystery to me as well. It's the sort of thing that I think I just learned by doing. It's interesting because I guess I'm getting ready to start my maybe six or seven th book. I've traded in this year and nothing's the same and everything's the same. What's constant is that it's a new process and that I guess experience has taught me giving me some grace that I know all get through it. That's the only difference I that's it experiences. Sort of getting me faith. That is possible. It's like the earlier. Books are proof of concept but this one is sort of this whole other beast where I'm like okay so I thought I knew what I was doing there but actually it goes differently. So we'll throw that out the window but I know it's possible in theory to write a book. I know it's possible to solve these plot problems in these structural problems. I don't really remember how it's done and so I feel like I'm still sort of fumbling around as I'm trying to work on the next project I I know I learned something I just. I just don't know that it's directly applicable to what the next thing is it. Seems to be the mystery writing so before we get into little fires everywhere I I I gotTa tell you. That's an unforgettable book thank you. That's an unforgettable book. One cannot get the dialogue the scenes that emotion. I can't shake it sometimes. I WANNA shake it because some of it's hard as hell but you can't shake this book and I'm just now ordered your first one so I'm dying to jump in before we get into the book itself. Let me talk to you as a writer. I have mad crazy. Respect for fiction. Writers how is that done exactly? I mean like. How do you plant seeds? They're going to grow into something later that you know you're gonNA grab. Is that all intentional. It's always intentional. But it doesn't happen in the order that it happens on the page I think. What does that mean for me? A lot of what it is is I think it is a lot like getting to know a person in real life and this is where I have huge respect for nonfiction writers. Because I go. How do you make a coherent story out of life which is inherently messy? Which doesn't always have the NEAT resonances that we want infection which doesn't always resolve itself right where there aren't always clear causing effects rate in fiction. I love it because I'm like well I can just change that I can change. Somebody's back so that their you know their future makes sense in in nonfiction writing. Moi's amazed at how people manage to eat. Oh kind of spleen and pulled together. The threads of what's really happened while sticking to the facts and for me when I'm writing a character when I'm writing a plot I start off. Maybe the same way that an interviewer would start interviewing subject. You say okay. What's your name you do? Where are you from? Where did you grow up? You know what's your job? Do you like your job. You know how did you get into that job and as you start to know more about them you start to understand who this person is and you get a sense of sort of their whether story is and whether issues are you go. Oh well what what made you interested in becoming a cattle rancher? That's it's a really unusual profession. Oh well okay so. Your Dad taught you a lot about the outdoors. What was your relationship with him. Like and you start to get a sense of what's form this person who they are. And that's how I think as every journalist that I've talked to explain that sort of how they get to figure out what the story is. I do the same thing as a fiction writer I think. Why would this person do this? Who is this person? What's their backstory? What are the memories that shaped them and only once? I've written out a lot of that can I? Then go back and go. Okay your relationship with your father or your sister or that thing. You didn't get is going to cause you to do this other thing in the past and I can then go back and revise and it's only in the process of revision that I go back and plant the seeds as you were saying. I've got sort of see what the whole story is. And then I can go back. And put the trail of breadcrumbs in for the reader to follow the benefit. Is that for the reader? It looks super seamless. But on my end it's very messy and it's I feel like I'm moving all over the place until it's done so are you going? This is so interesting to me. Were in Kobe right now right instead. I'm here by myself in my house. But if someone was here like Lauren our producer. Someone from my team they'd be like okay to inside baseball not writing. He Oh so. They can't they can't stop me. So are you saying that you write back and forth in future and past in memory and present while you're writing these books. Yeah I don't write in the order that the pages are so i? I'm sure there are writers out there who start at page one and they just moved straight through to the end. And it's done but for me. I'm always moving back and forth. I'm going okay. Here's the character. What happens next what happens next the traditional question of fiction and then at a certain point I always find myself going into the past and going. Well why did they do that? How do they become this person? What's the back story of this gesture or this motion this action that they did and so? I'll go and I'll write what happened before then. What happens at the end of my first draft? Which is attorneys really loosely. I feel like it's like I'm generated a whole bunch of puzzle pieces and I think most of them go into the finished picture but I don't know what the picture is and some of the pieces that I made. Maybe actually don't go in this puzzle and I have no idea what order. They're supposed to go it. I've just generated all these pieces and then the process of subsequent drafts is figuring out which pieces fit together. What's the whole picture that I've making? Maybe these pieces don't actually belong in this puzzle at all but what I'm always doing is I'm writing pieces of the story and then I have to figure out how to tell the story once. I know what the story is. Okay Undergrad at Harvard Right. Yes what did you study? I said he'd English English and American literature and language I think is the official title of the concentration as they call it at Harvard and then. Mfa and then I got an MFA in prose writing as University of Michigan. Yeah but where did you get the therapeutic experience you know really and I'm asking you is like someone that has like a lot of background in that? Where did you get this? I've always been really interested in psychology. Just I think because I've always been really interested in people. And what makes them tick so? I took a psychology class when I was in high school at Shaker Heights high school. You can take psychology as senior. It's sort of an intro level and I thought it was fascinating. I took some history of psychology classes and things like that as electives when I was in college just to understand. I've been to therapy myself in. It's something that I want to be sort of open about because I feel like. There's still a big stigma around going to see therapists and I actually feel like pretty much. Everybody would probably benefit from going to see a therapist. And I wish it was something that was universally available and then in Grad school as well for an elective. I took a class in child psychopathology. it was with a friend of mine who wanted to become a child psychologist and infect is now a child psychologist we had to take a class that was not in the English department and that was not in the writing department and she said come take this class with me and I said Okay and it was just really interesting to learn about the ways that people tend to think the ways that what we go through shape who become all of that sort of stuff. So I've done some formal learning about it but a lot of it just comes from observing people talking to handle thinking about what they're like. I tend to be an introvert and a shy person myself and so when I am at a party my usual mode of operation is to stand off to the side and listen to the conversation and not participate a lot but I'm constantly listening to what people are saying reading their signals trying to figure out who they are that sort of emotive survival for a shy person to read other people's emotions. I think a lot of that has helped me sort of figure out why people might behave the way they behave in fiction. It's interesting because I would. I would explain what I do. As understanding the connection between how we think feel and behave and little fires everywhere was such a master class in that thank you that means a lot actually from someone with your experience it was a painful masterclass at times and also hopeful at times so. I want to dig in to. I mean I could talk to you about the writing piece forever. And I think it's interesting to the folks who listen because a lot of us are writers and we're all storytellers because humans are meaning making species and I think also what you said is really true. I became a pattern hunter around thinking feeling and behavior as a means of survival. Just someone who wanted to fit in and it didn't and so there's something deeply accurate and uncovering about the way you write about people. So here's what that my weird plan is I have all these quotes from your book. Yeah that Friggin did everything from light me on no pun intended. Light me on fire to like eight me. Want to not get out of bed. I want to read them to you. Okay and which is always weird. Have someone read your work to you. It's fun to though to hear what lines resonate with other people. Because sometimes they are the lies that resonated with me when I was writing them and sometimes they're lines that I really didn't expect and I find this fascinating. Okay well good. I'm glad because that's kind of the plan. All right so I think what was hard and true and shocking and revelatory for me about the book and then later the series. On Hulu there are a couple of things. Perfectionism Motherhood Niceness a sucky sorry ass anti-racism tool I since this is not a tool for anti-racists work yeah so deployed as is so often deployed. So let's take a look. I'm GonNa read this from little fires everywhere all her life. She had learned that passion like fire was a dangerous thing. It so easily went out of control. It's scaled walls and jumped over. Trenches spark slept like and spread rapidly. A breeze could carry numbers for miles better to control that spark and pass it carefully from one generation to the next like an Olympic torch or perhaps too tend to carefully like an eternal flame a reminder of light and goodness that would never could never set anything ablaze carefully controlled domesticated happy in captivity the key. She thought was to avoid conflagration. This philosophy had carried her through life and she had always felt had served for quite well. Of course she'd had to give up a few things here and there but she had a beautiful house a steady job. A loving husband Abreu healthy and happy children. Surely that was worth the trade and he want me to talk about the quote in where it came from and God bless America that passion like fire is a dangerous thing. Yeah I think as Americans we have we have this idea about ourselves where we're like you're supposed to follow your dreams and you're supposed to be yourself and so on and that's up to a point you know what we tell especially kids and especially young women now like you can be anything you want to be you know. Just just lean and do all those things but the truth is that if you go past a certain point and it shifts depending on who? You're people will stick okay. That's a little too much right. You know it's like it's like Oh you're supposed to be too much right and I think most women men have experienced in some way. You're supposed to be confident. We'll not that confident now. You sound bossy right. You're supposed to speak your mind but now you sound a little shrill. It's like the you know you get the sense I think is. Is you become a woman in our society? This very narrow range used to hit right in the middle and anything below that. You're not trying hard enough so it's your fault anything that's a little too much. Well now you're making people uncomfortable. So that's your fault. I thought about this bind that know Richardson. Who's WHO's the viewpoint. Character in that quote is sort of thinking about that she does have these ambitions and yet she's also sort of been told and feels that maybe she's not supposed to go too far right. You're supposed to be ambitious. But not too right because that could be dangerous. And you're supposed to believe in social causes but you don't want to be a fanatic. So you WanNa do it in a very decorous sort of way. I do think it has a lot to do with her. Being a product of the suburbs that she grew up in this suburb and she was raised in the suburb. And she's got roots there and it would be true of any suburb that It's space where you think you can have it all where you can be kind of in the middle. You're you're close to the city. But you're not in the city because maybe that's true in in all of its coded meanings but you're still close to the city so you're not out in the country with all those coated meetings rate the idea that you know in the suburbs you have space of your own and yet theoretically you still have neighbors you know. There's this idea that in some ways you can have your foot in you know in every sort of territory you can have the best of all possible worlds. And none of the downsides and none of that is true but it's this space where we think we can be moderate and I think for a Richardson. That's really true and particularly for Shaker Heights. It's a place that really I think. Wants to position itself as being idealistic but moderately. So and so. That's I think a lot of the the viewpoint Her reason for being. That's her her whole certa. Ethos that passage you just read. Passion like fire is a dangerous thing. I mean all the fire metaphors and analogies like the whole book was smoking but time I was done I was like. Oh my God I get it and I have to admit that I didn't do that. Consciously in the first draft when I when I gave this manuscript to my age and it didn't have a title and she said Great. I think it's ready to send your editor but you you need to put a title on it. And she made me go through the book and list all of the phrases that I thought could work as a title so I had about three pages of them and the one that we settled on was little fires everywhere and it didn't strike me until we were going through that list so the book was basically done at that point you needed provisions but it was in its basic shape. I didn't even realize until that point. How many fire images there are in the book that it works really well as a metaphor not only for the trouble that they're having but also for the passions that they have in some ways you can get out of control right. Fire is essentially tool. It can be something that's really destructive or it can be something that is really useful and maybe even productive in that image of the forest fire the prairie fire that Burns everything down and enriches the soil. It is sort of the this double edged sword for all of the characters and their relationship to it. You know we were drawn to fires and we also fear them. It just ended up working really well and now I can't imagine having a different title but I didn't realize how many fire metaphors there were in the book. So that's that's something for the the subconscious. I guess what's interesting too is I would say a lot of the pros in the book is flammable. You're waiting for a spark to hit some of these passages. Because you know that it is. I hate to. You know everyone who knows me knows. I work a metaphor until people start crying but you were waiting for a spark to hit some of the kindling in these passages. Because you're like this is one spark. Away from unstoppable blaze. What's happening right here? These microaggressions these. I mean. I don't even know that you can call them microaggressions. That happened in this book. It's maybe in the nineties. They were microaggressions right. I think so. They're the sorts of things that you can again say are not intended to be aggression so in that sense microaggressions but micro makes it seem like they're small and I know a lot of people don't like the term because of that but I think if we're defining that as something that is aggressive it isn't intended to be. The book is full of them and you know life is generally full them for anybody. Who's in a position of less power? You're so aware of the position that you're in and people who are in power by definition are not aware of the power. You know that they have so offense. There's a quote from Karl. Yune that I came across. I think when I was getting I think during my doctoral work that I had my daughter in the middle of my PhD program and it was met with very mixed feelings from congratulations to Gosh. We thought you were going to be somebody so it is yourself. Why would you do this to yourself? Yeah you really have potential and I remember this quote from Carl. Young that we had studied. Union Stephan some class in it said the greatest tragedy of a child is the UN lived life of apparent. Tell me about that with me and Elena. Tell me about your thinking about that. Did you think about that? I mean maybe not that quote but I did think about that idea. I hadn't heard that quote. I like it a and if you're about to read by first book. I think you'll see a lot of resonance in that first book as well. It's something that I think about myself. I'm really I love my life. I love my son. I cannot imagine life without him but I think that every parent also goes. Oh my life would have been really different not saying better or worse than but just different if I had taken a different route if I had not had a child if I had had a different child if any number of things were were different but having a child is is a big change in your life and I started writing my first novel before I became a mother and then I finished writing it after I had my son and I think that experience really did bring home for me. Just what a big change in life. That was end. Just always that you always have to give something up in order to get something else rate you know. It's the sort of thing that people people don't like to say. Oh well I had to give up ex. Have my child we WANNA say you can have it all but the truth is you do have to give up certain things and it's not necessarily a bad things not even certainly not necessarily the wrong thing likewise if you had wanted to go and I don't know become a An Arctic you know. I don't know climb out ever something that you might have to give up other things like having children right There's always a trade off and it's something that I think about a lot. Now that I am a parent I am still a daughter. You a nice. See My mother the way that she was when I was younger and the life that she's a differently now I realized why she made some of the decisions that she did because now I can see things through closer to her perspective to go. Okay well you you know you need to get x. done so that's why we didn't do this or I needed this and I see now why you took this job. Instead of that job rate you start to see just the there's always a trade off and so in both novels Particularly fires everywhere. I find myself just thinking a lot about what it means to be a mother and how you reconcile with things you got to have her. You didn't get to have and how much of that ends up being carried forward onto your children for better for. I don't think any mother really intends to to put those sorts of expectations on her child necessarily. But you can't help when you're a parent from having certain expectations Very positively like I want your life to be better than my life in whatever ways you see course right you know. That's the in theory right. That's probably what every parent would say but the truth is that you are different person from your child. Your circumstances are probably going to be quite different from your child's and you may not be the best judge of what's better or worse for your child and that's really hard thing to reconcile with as a parent. I reconciled with that On a daily basis. I think most most parents do. You're like but I think this would be better for you. And they're like yes but I think this thing would be better for me. I think it will be much better if I got to play minecraft right now then if I did X. Y. and Z. Chore that you gave Bri and many many other situations that are much harder to parse out. You're like what is going to be better for you. And you don't know and you don't get a do over certified terrifying thing about being a parent and I wrote both books as I work through this experience of motherhood and that's a lot of what I think about and have been so glad that it resonates with other people. It's been a reminder of all right. We're all trying to figure this out as best we can yet. It's interesting because I think I always talk about from my research. Parenting is a shame minefield. And we're so shaming to other parents because we're the most likely to shame others in areas where we fill the most vulnerable to shame abso where we full where we feel full of self worth. We usually don't judge shame others when we're scared to death that we're making colossal mistakes. Were Very Quick. Because embedded in shame and judgment is rank ordering and so you know. I want speaking of parenting. I want to read this quote. Okay to a parent. Your child wasn't just a person. Your child was a place a kind of Narnia. Avast eternal place where the present you were living and the past you remembered and the future you longed for all existed at once. You could see it every time you looked at her layered in her face was the baby she'd been child she'd become in the adult she would grow up to be and you saw them all simultaneously like a three D. Image and paid your head spin it was a place. You could take refuge if you knew how to get in and each time you left it each time. Your child passed out of your sight. You feared you might never be able to return to that place again. Yeah I think about this wrong every time I look at my son who is in this phase now where I feel like about every like thirty to forty minutes. He gets slightly larger like I just feel like he's just growing fast. I keep having to buy new pants for him and things like that. Like I'm just like how are you getting so much bigger so quickly but it's been true all along that you can see them changing and they're always still your child and when I look at his face I see how he is but I also see you know the baby that he used to be and now you know in the twenty first century. I think this is exacerbated by things like facebook or Google photos will be like. Here's your memories from you know seven years ago and they'll like out of the blue a photo from your past we'll kind of pop into your life and you know. My child is standing in front of me at age nine but then he's also on my own at age two and I can see both of those things superimposed over each other sort of at the same time. It's it's that sort of uncanny feeling of looking at him and being able to see all of his past selves kind of lined up on top of each other. But that's that's a lot of that. Passage came from that feeling of seeing child in trying to appreciate where he is also still remembering Doesn't seem like that long ago that he was just a little kid. It doesn't seem like that long ago since he was a baby and it always irritated me to no end when I was little and my parents or relatives. Oh you used to be so cute. You remember when you were very little used to do this thing and I'm like you know I'm seventeen or whatever age I was and I get it more now. That for them. That time was so compressed. You know the time that they remembered from when. I was five to the time they were speaking to me as a young adult felt. Probably like the blink of an eye to that whereas went right and for me. I'm like why are you still talking about what I was like? When I was five I am a whole person. I'm very different. And of course the truth is that. I still had that person with me right now. I see it from the other point of view and again. It's just something that I think about a lot when I see son and I see him growing. I think about how time is moving differently from me and how. I'm going to remember all of those things Monday. Challenges to hold onto them and remember them but also not to kind of enforce those on him not to treat him like that little kid. It's again a really hard line to walk as a parent when I read that passage. It's every time I see my. I wasn't aware that I was doing it until I read that like. I think that's the beauty of words and good writing is that it wraps language around something that you're doing that you're not aware of but I do think every time I look at Elinor Charlie. I see them when I held them. I see them now and I see I see them gone and you know Ellen's twentieth so she is gone. But you know she's with us now during the quarantine but and then I when it goes out of my sight. There's almost like a little morning every it's you really capture that beautifully. I mean I think how can there not be that kind of morning because even when things change in ways that you love even when you're happy with how they are and you know you're excited you're still like oh but I don't have this other thing anymore right and it's they don't cancel each other out. It's not like you don't have a twenty year old and that's great right like I'm going to weigh that against having a two year old right like you can't really compare those things just different. Nobody tells you this about parenthood or they tell you and you can't really conceptualize what it is until you start to go through it right and then you're like oh. I see why all the sooners I had my son people kept saying. Oh enjoy. These days. They're going to go so fast really because it feels like they're endless like I have slept about three hours in the past week right this this time period will last forever. You can't see past that and it's only later on that you kind of go. I understand what they were trying to tell me There's so much I think about life that you can't really understand you experienced it in some way and and that's that's one of the things that I think. Writing can do as it can at least give you sort of glimpse about what it might be like if you haven't experienced it or if you have hopefully like you said it can. It can articulate that for you can kind of crystallize it in a way. That hold onto. Language gives us a handle right exactly. Yeah so this was the other thing that and I think this is maybe speak to just me but luckily it's my podcast so I get to really talk about what time which I love. I'm trying to find the intro because I have so many pages of notes here but there was a lead incident. That said something. Like I'm paraphrasing. As our children grow we have to get accustomed to less and less touch. Sometimes yeah and then you right. It's about Pearl me as daughter becoming a teenager and you're right it's like training yourself to live on the smell of an apple alone when what you really wanted was to devour it to sink your teeth into it to consume it cedes core and all that is probably the line that the most readers have called out for me as one that really resonated with them and Yuli? It makes me so happy because when I was writing at I was trying to. I think my son Letsie when he must have been about five so he was right at that stage where sometimes he didn't want to hold my hand rate like that that kind of stay totally and I'm like this is good. You're supposed to be growing more independent. That's fine. I like that. You want to do things on your own and at the same time like you don't want to hold my hand anymore. You don't WanNa snuggle with me anymore. You only want snug with me sometimes right like that moment of recognizing that I of Oh I'm going to have to start letting go and letting go more and more and more as we go along like there's going to be less and less hand holding as we go along and that's right that it still me really sad and I was trying to capture that feeling and I worried that it might seem melodramatic. No Ma'am I'm just really grateful readers when they tell me that captured something that they were feeling too because I feel it even now like still. I still sometimes get told his hand in. Sometimes he likes to snuggle. But he's you know he's nine and he's he's like his very privacy now and he's like. Oh Yeah and because we're doing we're all stuck in the house together during the quarantine and he's you know he can have little like facetime or you know skype. Play dates with his friends. Set up monopoly board in the each play on their own board while they're playing he's like can you go downstairs now so that. I can have privacy. And I'm like that's fine. You're allowed to have privacy right. You should be allowed to talk to your friends right. That's fine and I'm also like but my baby you're my baby like I don't WanNa like of you so sick feeling and I was really happy that they worked that line into the adaptation because for me it's one of those sort of universal feelings of motherhood and it's one of the few moments where I think the two mothers in this book who are very different in a lot of ways see each other directly for just a second and kind of recognize that they are both going through something similar and then of course they diverge. I was really happy that they took that line and they managed to work it into the dialogue on the show. It was. It's incredible line. It's so funny because Ellen who's twenty against it quarantining with us and we've been together now ten or eleven weeks since we her spring break. God canceled whenever there and I told my husband a couple of weeks ago. I was like Eleanor snuggling and we were laughing. We were having you know she was spilling tea with me of outlets going all different and it was awesome and I said then she just rolled over and she was cuddling with me and I said I forgot what it was like to feel the full weight of a child on you. You know and I'll take my twenty year old because my son's going to be fifteen this year starting in high school and that is not. That's not where he is like. He'll he gets. He's now a foot taller than me. Kisses me on the top of the head and he's like by mom love you or whatever but I the feeling of the full weight of a child on you yeah. There's a really great passage in. I think it's the house of Mirth. I went through this phase last year where I was trying to fill in the gaps of the classics that I had somehow missed in my English major education. And I was reading edith. Who had never really read a lot of? And there's a passage this one of the best descriptions of holding a baby that I've ever read is is holding this person's baby and it talks about how the baby kind of wiggles and kind of like suddenly kind of relaxes and you can feel the whole way to kind of melting into you and when I read that I remembered like all right. You used to be that small and used to just like you said the whole weight of them. They're just they're completely trusting you in a way that they don't and can't when they get bit older now let's complete vulnerability. Yeah and they're just like okay. I trust you. I'm yours and the kind of relaxing melt into your arms. And it's Su- streaky. You get it for such a narrow window and yet it makes such a big impression you you cut it. Don't almost never get that back. It's kind of lovely that you you got to have that again just for a minute. I'll take it. Okay a couple more questions so shaker heights where you grew up. And which is I would consider just as a reader a main character in this book. Absolutely yes would you agree yes absolutely. It was one of the reasons that I wanted to write. This novel actually started thinking about it. I had been away from home for about ten years and I was just at that point where I could look back with a little bit of perspective and realize. Oh they're all these things about it. That were really weird. You know a lot of the things that I put into the book in a sort of its perfectionism. Its emphasis on rules. All those things and at the same time I could also recognize there a lot of things about that. Were really pretty amazing. And that shaped me into the person that I am. For example the fact that race was even something that we tried to talk about right even if we didn't have the greatest conversations the fact that it was something that was even acknowledged the fact that they were always trying to do better right even if they never totally lived up to their own ideals that strikes me now as something. That's pretty unusual about a community and so it for sure. Yeah and so you know I wanted to. I wanted to try and write about Shaker Heights as if it were a character as you said and show it in you know all of its with all of its faults but also with all of the things about it that were really admirable just to show all sides of it into give portrait of it like you would give a portrait of like a relative that you know. He want everyone to see the great things about them. You WanNa with knowledge. The things about them that are weird or less than desirable but you also centric. Yeah eccentric right. You know. There's your Kooky Andrew. There's your weird uncle who always smokes as really terrible smelling cigars or whatever you know it as in this area you have that one uncle who's always fi drinks too much. He's probably GonNa say some things and you just kinda decide when you're going to argue a lot like that but you also want people to see the good things about them and the things about them that you see a really admirable and to just be able to hold both of those things right at at the same time and so Shaker Heights for me is is definitely one of the main characters of the book. IT'S PART OF WHY. I set the book there. I didn't I thought about fictionalized it. Because it's it's scary to write about your hometown. It's scary to write about a real place because people can then say to you. That's not how I experienced it and you have to try and get it right but I didn't think that I read about somewhere else because it was this real place I think to fictionalization would've would've taken away a lot of the character of that place. There was no question in my mind as I read and I watched that you were writing from the bones as they would say that you were you were you. Were writing from the bones on Shaker heights a couple of questions first of all. I gotta say just what I do as a researcher social scientists and I don't think thought about this before your work honestly before this book specifically that as we try to learn about ourselves and develop more self awareness. I think it would behoove all of us to think about where we grew up as a character in our own narrative. I don't think we do that but certainly for me. Texas is a strong of an influence and character in my life. Had it been a GRANDPA grandma even maybe even apparent because Texas raised me in. Its own ways that I've sunk into in love and hated so I love again though. Psychology classes completely paid off. Because I really 'cause like understanding place since a place as a character in our lives. I don't know we can do the work we need to do. All of it without that the second thing that struck me about and I I'm coming up memory right now because I've got on my notes here but I don't have my copy of the book because I'm I'm moving books to the Office. But there were some. I think real kind of bylaws or marketing material from Shaker Heights in the sixties or seventies in the front of your book yet so I think you're exactly right I mean I think that I think we notice the effect of where you grew up. If it's I think we noticed it in really obvious cases so for example I'm a daughter of immigrants and so the immigrants story is one that we think a lot of outright. How did it change? Who were how did it shape you if you were born somewhere and then you chose to come somewhere else rate or if you were brought there for whatever reason how we we understand that that's GonNa shape who you right but it's not always as obvious like you say if it's something that's less unless dramatic shift. I started to think about this because my first novel is set in a fictional town in Ohio and people in Ohio. Were really excited about it. And they said can you talk to us about how being an Ohioan shaped who you are and I had never really thought about that question a lot of times. You know growing up in Ohio and particularly in Cleveland in the nineties. It was not the most exciting place to grow up with the most exciting time to grow up and generally speaking. We would joke and say like well the reason it formed us that we really wanted to get out of here right like I wanted. There's nothing here you know From Iowa Nebraska Save semi facetiously. Well we you know we were shaped by the fact that like what we really wanted to do was to escape route. Nebraska rates and. That might be true. I mean a lot of times. What you're shipping yourself against is opposition to something but it also you know I had to think a lot with this book and with my first book about what it meant to be from Ohio and to be particularly Chinese American girl living in Ohio Rate. And so like you said all that. I think really has a huge influence on who I became. And like you said it's probably true for everyone to one extent or another the passage it you that you said The the part that I have in the beginning this is what you're thinking about. There's two epigraph at the beginning. And one of them is an advertisement from the creator of the village. That's the one the other one from an article in cosmopolitan where Shaker Heights had been in nineteen sixty three. It had been determined to be the wealthiest suburb per capita and they came. This was before cosmopolitan became a women's magazine. It was still just a general interest family magazine. So Pre Helen Gurley Brown era and they came in. They did a profile of the community and I was amazed in reading at how much head not changed in a way in the particular to change. But the general ethos of the town was the same. The advertisement says whether you buy home site in the school section broad acres Shaker country estates or one of the houses offered by this company in a choice of neighborhoods. Your purchase includes Facilities Golf. Riding tennis voting. It includes unexcelled schools and includes protection forever against depreciation and unwelcome changed stutz. That was how that was what they were selling the dream that they were selling to people. Come here you can have all these things and it will never change. It will always you will be protected. It will be the same. It will be a little bubble for you. So here's what struck me and I am a product of the suburbs. You know I'm the product of an interesting suburb outside of Houston that I think people magazine featured us our junior year for the highest number of suicides so affluent most of the DADS worked the MOM stayed at home. The dads road the freeway to downtown oil oil is oil and gas but what struck me was the inherent unwinnable tension between the promise of diversity inclusivity and around race and everything would be pretty easy and there would be no conflict it was. We're going to be. It was definitely my read of your book. And tell me if this is true or not. My reading of the book was definitely a diversity through colorblind ness approach. We're all the same. We're all the same and so it was. As if the promise of Shaker Heights was being lived out through me. Elena bike. Yeah did you did you did you. Is that true or is that I think that was the goal in the era that I live there. Which was the nineties? I should clarify that at the beginning so at the time that this advertisement. The beginning was first written Shaker Heights like most other communities was not thinking about racial diversity and in fact they were sort of like we are going to have the right kinds of people which is mostly White Christian people not Jews not people of Color and so on until the fifties that Shaker heights kind of decided we are going to make diversity part of the fifties. Yeah I mean it had been happening all along but there was an incident that happened in the nineteen fifties where there was the home of a wealthy black lawyer. Was they put? Somebody put a little firebomb in his garage and this was a real turning point the community where they said well. What are we going to do? We're seeing in all the neighborhoods around US segregation happening. We're seeing white flight happening. How are we going to respond? And they decided to respond by making diversity sort of the cornerstone of the community. At least in terms of we're going to get everybody to kind of live together. We're going to integrate the neighborhoods. We're GONNA do all of these things it hit before that you know not not been a focus of but starting in the fifties. It became this sort of racial experiment and people kind of said. We're GONNA do this. We're going to give subsidies for black families to move into white neighborhoods or for white families to move into black neighborhoods and that's how we're going to encourage integration. We're going to integrate all the schools and make sure that they're all kind of blended as well as they can be. And it was by the time we got to nineties. Like you said this sort of effort to say like we're all this you know we're all the same. We are all equal and I remember that being just the way that people express their racial awareness at the time in the nineties. If he wanted to show that you were racially aware and you were sensitive to raise the way that you said it was. I don't see race right. Everybody's the same in my eyes and I think that was at the time what they meant was I will treat people equally but now we can also hear how that says. I'm GonNa Forget about this very large aspect of your identity and of your experience and pretend that it doesn't matter I mean now we can hear that in a very different light but at the time I think that's that's my sense of how it was across the country. If you wanted to talk about race you wanted to do it. Interfered with it. Doesn't matter race doesn't matter rate. I think that was the approach. Yeah it was that idea that we were going to somehow become post-racial that race race as a concept with something that could only be negative and divisive and we had to just kind of ignore it and I think we see that differently. Now we see that that. It's a lot more complicated than you can't just sort of take race out of the equation and pretend everything is the same. I kept. I don't know if you've ever read Austin channing Brown's work now I kept. There's a quote that she she's an amazing does antiracism work in amazing writer. There's a quote that says when you believe Niceness disproves the presence of racism. It's easy to start believing. Bigotry is rare and that the label racist should only be applied to mean spirited. Intentional Acts of discrimination. So so spot on. It's crazy right. Yeah I mean it's I think we've seen that a lot in the past three to four years starting with the run up to the two thousand sixteen election. I think people people who hadn't been aware of it because many people were but a lot of people suddenly became aware that you could be racist without being quote unquote mean rate and there. Is that whole thing of like well. Are you calling me a racist as if you know like the problem was the name racist rather than the scenic? Did that actually caused the harm. That's it's a hard saying to reconcile right but I think we have to write like you you you kind of have to do that if somebody points out to you that you're causing harm you have to put aside your own feelings about being called out on that and try to focus on not causing the harm and that's really hard especially if you've never been asked to do it. I have sympathy for that but I also feel like you know. That's the work that has to get done. And it's it's work that the people who are in power and have privilege to do. There's no way around that people can't do that work for them. Now that's it. Yeah Okay my last quote that I want to reach because all man that killed me. This is hard. I have some of this in me right here. Rules existed for reason. If you followed them you would succeed if you didn't you might burn the world to the ground. Yeah I have a lot of in metoo. I mean that's how that's that's why I wrote that. There's a lot of Elena Richardson in me. And again that sort of her the distillation of her essence. I'm kind of a goody two shoes by nature in a lot of ways I was raised to be very like Obedient and Nice and compliant. As many as many women are especially. My parents. Were very much like you to follow the rules and like behave yourself and I realized now that part of that was because we look different. We were people of Color. We were in a place where we would stand out and there was this sense that to do otherwise could be very dangerous so you better follow all the rules. Do not not put a toe out of line and you know that's true for so many people color especially for black people right you can be following all the rules and still get in trouble but I feel that I want to believe that there is this system of right and wrong and if you just do all the things you're supposed to do that you will be fine right and the the truth is obviously that is not true right. There are certain people who will be fine if they are following the rules. And maybe even if they're not following the rules they'll be given the benefit of the doubt and then there are many people who can be following the rules to the letter and they will still end up in trouble through no fault of their own. Like you know you think about something as simple as like you can be a black person driving a car and doing absolutely nothing wrong and you might still get pulled over right and I honestly don't know black person that that hasn't happened to and so it's not just about race but it is about that idea in some ways that there is a way that you can keep yourself safe that you can in some way control how other people are going to perceive you or help other people are going to treat you and the tough thing is when you realize that. That's not actually true for many people. There isn't a way that you can serve protect yourself. You can stay in the on the right side of things that you can keep yourself out of trouble that you can't always control how people are going to see you or react to you. You can't always control whether people are going to give you the benefit of the doubt but we really want to believe that right and Oh God yes. It's built into biologically right you know and and we've been talking about race but even just in terms of I think about like you know relationships in like little spats that I have with my husband like he wants to believe but I did exactly what you told me and yet for some reason. You're still mad at me because I didn't do X. Y. and Z. You know there's there's so much that goes unsaid. That's not not always. I think made explicit in any relationship. And you know you you start to recognize. How fragile is the wrong word but you start to recognize how much you have to kind of. Read any situation and kind of adjust sort of your expectations and doing to. What's in that right regardless of what the rules are the rules. Are I did something wrong? I say sorry. You have to forgive me right and it doesn't work that way right. I I think that's no I think that's part of the anxiety around the pandemic right now. Where people just give me the rules. Because I'll follow them so I can. If you can promise me I can stay safe. It'll be safe that my parents will be safe. Just give me the rules. Where are the GROWNUPS with the rules? And and we don't. We don't have those now war where busily firing them or not listening to them and and they're not even sure about the roles they have their best guess because everyone is sort of figuring it out as they go along and it's scary we would like to be. Yeah we would like to be told like okay. There's definitely if we check off the boxes. We will be fine and you can't do that like it's as as in so many things in life. There is no guaranteed outcome with that. And it's really really hard and I say that as somebody who would love you know I love having a plan I love it when I have a plan and it takes care of all the things you know and it works. The most of life isn't like that you know you can't you can't. That's why Elena was hard for me to masterson empathy for some time. But that part of her I understood because I have it so I was so. Let me ask you a couple questions that I have a ten question rapid fire to close with. Okay Ready. Yes yes cake. Who was your favorite character in little fires everywhere? Who is your least favorite? At least favorite is hard because my job. Is that a half to have empathy but favorite izzy was really really fun to write because she gets to say and do a lot of the things that we're told you should not say you can't do that. Don't say that out loud right like everything that's supposed to be inside voice. She says in her outside voice and that's really that was fun to write. Oh I love her to. Yeah who who was? Did you. Struggle with empathy for anyone? I did I struggled to have empathy for Leinna a lot. Even though I am very much like Elena. She does a lot of things in the books that are really unlikable and that are really difficult but as author. My job is to try and understand why she did them why she thought they were the right thing even if I go oh no honey. That was not the right thing to do. Like you have to be able to see why she thought she was doing the right thing. And so that was hard and it took it took provisions. My Writers Group would say it feels like you. Have Your your thumb on the scale a little bit and I go well. I don't that's not the since I want. I want people to be able to understand her too. And so I would have to go back and find ways to generate empathy for her to explain how she ended up the way she is. What did you think about the adaptation? What did you think what do you think about? The WHO special is really loved it. I went into it wanting to give it space for it to be something different. I think that is not supposed to be a copy right. It's supposed to be an adaptation on the screen and there are different needs on the screen. I write a lot of internal thought. You can't do that on the screen. You can't have a character. Just sit there. It does not make gripping television so I really liked what they did and I liked all of this sort of new directions that they would take things. They still felt to me like they were organic to the characters and yet they got to explore things that I didn't in the book I didn't get to in the book I hadn't thought of doing in the book I really like them. I don't know how I got so lucky to have to such amazing actresses as recent years a lot of TV shows. I think you're lucky to have like WHOA. There's like one actress under five guys and in this case to have to actresses who are just amazingly talented and who we like both of them. It reminds us that we have to kind of have some empathy for both of these characters right like all of their sort of natural charisma and talent goes to making us like these two women who both of whom do some really morally questionable things. Yeah Yeah yes. I thought they did an amazing job with adaptation. I was really happy and it's interesting too because I as a lot of friends who've read and watched it's two different experiences both amazing. I am so happy to hear that I mean that was. That was what I wanted you to what I've been saying. Is that if you hear a cover song there? You want to hear the same melodies in the same. It's the same song but you want it to be different experience right. You WanNa hear you know like nine inch nails singing and cash singing the song and have to really for interpreters one of my favorite cover songs. The nine inch nails Song Hurt N. When I heard are johnny cash is going to do a cover. I was Johnny Johnny Cash. Like the man in black johnny cash. How is that going to work? But when I heard it it was a completely different song and yet it was the same song and that was the joy of it for me and that was what I wanted from an adaptation. I wanted them to be different experiences. And I think that they I think succeeded in doing that. You know where the loyalty and fidelity was to me to the characters yes exactly Shaker Heights to the characters and so yeah so let me ask you this. What was like when you got the call that this was going to happen completely. Surreal I work with a really great film age in a Gene Richmond at UTA. And he was like okay. I've sincere novel to Reese Witherspoon Production Partner at Hello Sunshine Laura New Shatter and and she really likes it. We happen to be at Brunches like I just got his email and she really likes. She said she read it overnight. And she's going to have read it by tomorrow and I was like yes. Sure that's really gonNA help. She's really going to read this book by tomorrow. She did and the emails that they send them. When I got to talk to them on the phone it was so clear that they had such love for the book and so many points of residents between the book and their own personal experiences. Our own lives of the issues that they thought about and then when they decided to bring Carey in it was just one of those moments where I went yet. I trust them completely like I would be happy to give this to you and let you do with it what you want because I can see that you're looking in the same direction that I'm looking in and so whatever you end up doing with it I feel like we'll be faithful to the heart of the book and that really has ended up being true. It's been a really great experience. I love that. Are you ready for your rapid fire? Ten Yes. I'm ready okay. Fill in the blank for me. Vulnerability is scary number to your call to be brave but your fear is real. It's right caught in your throat. What's the very first thing you do? Take a deep breath am I doing this right is this is perfect. Yeah Heard Association. Yeah something that people often get wrong about you. They think that I am a pushover. Be informed people okay. There's such a difference between being nice and being over people but people sometimes think they can then push me around and then usually they find out that they're horribly mistaken. I love it. It's sort of fun to be. There's nothing better than when when people learned the hard way that kind in fierce can coexist. I Backley okay last. Show that you binged and loved. We're binging it right now. But we're binging the great on Hulu with L. Fenning Nichols Holton. And yes fantastic okay. It's still fun to know that. Okay favorite movie. Oh just one just one. Just one of your favorite movies one The Philadelphia story a concert. That you'll never forget. I'm totally blanking. Because I'm like okay. I have to pick one of all the concerts that I've been to you. I was thinking when I was in college. I went to see fountains of Wayne. Play this tiny little grungy base theater in Boston of all their many conflicts that I've been to but I thinking about that when because he he died recently yes and it really brings home this particular moment and only I saw you and now you died because of endemic. That's going on. So that's at the top of my mind right now. That's fair favorite meal one of your favorite meals. Anything that my mom has cooked. Basically if she knows you're gonNA come over and your she's GonNa make something special for you. What would it be? Oh she will make her eggrolls which she usually only makes on like family get togethers like th we usually have Thanksgiving and egg rolls and Christmas inaugurals and she makes them from scratch and only does it for family occasions. But they're so good. Oh my God I cannot make them the same way. That sounds really good. What's on your nightstand? A really really really giant stack of books on top of which is immunity. You'll abyss which I've been reading for reasons. That are probably obvious. But it just strikes me how interconnected the concept of health is. You can't limit that to yourself. It is a community seeing that you have to take care of and it seemed like a good book to read at this particular moment together or well together. That's right give me a snapshot of an ordinary moment in your life. That brings you joy. It is probably just goofing around with my son. We have a habit of riffing off of just something that somebody might say any sort of phrase and we'll just kind of vary at and make puns and make it sillier and make it sillier and keep trying to one up each other until we end up with something that makes no sense and it's just. It's never planned student prompt. You but it's it's this little unspoken rule free game that we play together. I wish I could see the look on her face right now. We're on zoom and you could see how much joy just describing it. Okay last question. What are you deeply grateful for right? Now I'm really deeply grateful for for my family my extended family but also my immediate nuclear family. We have been stuck in the house for about. I think this is eleven weeks now. I've kind of lost track but I'm really grateful that we have a home that safe that we can move our lives into the house my husband and I both work remotely and that we like each other like if I had to be quarantined with people at least I got to be quarantined. With two of my favorite people who honestly still bring me joy I skipped a zoom call recently with friends to watch a movie with my husband and my son and my husband like so. You're not totally sick of us. After all this time and I was like yeah not totally still WanNa see you. So yeah so. I'm really grateful that I feel pretty lucky that they're pretty great. But I really appreciate the craft and the art and the work that you're putting out in the world not only did it kind of take me away. It taught me a lot. So I'm I'm grateful for that. So thank you thank you. That is a huge huge compliment to here. So thank you and thank you for your smart questions to. This was really fun. Well you're welcome. I hope you all enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. I just kind of geeked out and I could have done the whole thing on righty and it was interesting because as people on my team listened to it. I was worried that I got to like writer on writer around how she threads through details and builds characters but everyone was like that was our favorite part. If you WANNA learn more about the last you can visit our website. Www dot celeste in dot com. It's C. E. L. E. S. T. E. N. G. DOT COM. She's also on twitter. Twitter handle is at pronounced underscore I N G because your last name is spelled in G and you pronounce I N G so her twitter handle is actually at pronounced underscore. I N G which is really funny. You can also always go to the show notes on neighboring dot com. We'll give you links to the book where to find last where to find more information about both of her books all right. Today's bonus episode. We'll talk to Reese Witherspoon and Carrie Washington about starring in executive producing the series on. Hulu which is amazing intense. Be cringes of cringe. Just in places and just amazing writing and one last thing I'd like to thank parachute for sponsoring this episode. You can visit parachute home dot com slash bb for free shipping and returns on all of parachutes items. I hope you enjoy those lennon sheets. Y'All stay awkward kind and brave. I'm doing my damndest not easy right now but don't give up on people all we have folks all we have is each other.

Shaker Heights writer US Elena Richardson Harvard University Mfa Hulu University of Michigan New York Times Celeste Ing Houston Shaker Heights high school Los Angeles Shaker Heights Ohio twitter Pennsylvania Ellen DADS Kerry Washington
Little Fires Everywhere Trailer

Little Fires Everywhere - The Official Podcast

02:14 min | 5 months ago

Little Fires Everywhere Trailer

"Hi I'm Jamie Loftus and normally the host of the Bechtel cast in my year and mental on Iheart, but I'm here to tell you about a really different podcast I'll be hosting starting on March nineteenth. It's called fires everywhere. The official podcast and at the behind the scenes look at a new Hulu drama series. If you've somehow not heard yet. Reese Witherspoon Carrie Washington. Are both starring in and producing a new drama series that brings Celeste Ings, critically acclaimed novel, little fires everywhere to life. The story is about a free, spirited and uncompromising artists named Mia Warren played by Carrie Washington and her daughter Pearl, entering painstakingly planned Shaker. Heights Ohio in the nineteen nineties. They brush up against the picture. Perfect Mom Elena Richardson played by Reese Witherspoon as well as her picture, perfect catalog family. You know until someone burns her house down because yeah, things are not as perfect in Shaker heights as they seem. You're going to hear from everybody. You're going to hear from the writers you're going to hear from the composer's the actors actual people living in Shaker Heights Ohio right now Celeste in the author of the original book. The production designers, the artists and more I'm going to be co hosting the show with Liz Taylor who is the show runner? One of the executive producers and the head writer of little fires, everywhere, talking to cast and creatives about their experience, bringing the story to life, and about every controversial topic you could think of in-between from casting and adapting to and. And I'm not kidding a scandal in the writer's room, involving tampons lodged in a sewage pipe lot to unpack there, so don't miss out because trust me. You'RE GONNA. Be Talking about this show nonstop very soon, and we've got you covered with all the juicy details and context the day after each episode airs on Hulu, beginning on March nineteenth, you can subscribe a little fires everywhere the official podcast forever you get your podcast to stay updated on everything and make sure to pre-game by watching new episodes of little fires everywhere starting eighteenth on Hulu, C. CNN Shaker y'all.

Hulu Reese Witherspoon Shaker heights Shaker Heights Ohio Celeste Ings Carrie Washington official Jamie Loftus writer Ohio Bechtel Liz Taylor Iheart Elena Richardson Mia Warren executive Pearl
Shaker Heights - Episode 4: Chinese Whispers

True Crime Garage

57:58 min | 6 months ago

Shaker Heights - Episode 4: Chinese Whispers

"Welcome to Shaker Heights. Episode for Chinese Whispers Sixteen Year Old Lisa. Pruitt was stabbed to death behind mansion in Shaker Heights Ohio on September fourteenth nineteen ninety. Her murder remains unsolved. This is the story of how the police detectives and a small town where led to believe the weird kid in school. Did it based on nothing but testimony from a group of Teens? Who were friends with? Lisa's boyfriend Dan. Dreifort what you will hear are actors reading from actual police interviews conducted during the course of their investigation. No words have been change and the interviews remain in chronological order so that you can see how the case against Kevin Young was constructed. This is detective. Richard Mullany at the Shaker Heights police department and our view. Lean one Christopher in Jones Mr Jones. Can you continue your statement? Dan was pretty angry being suspect or the way they portray that pretty much from there. Many people came and left Dan's house at night. Eventually me and Dan Messinger gotTA ride from Scott. Free Arrow to the PRUITT's health. We talked to Mr Pruitt. We went up into their house and spend a little time in Lisa's room. Then me and Dan Messing her. We're going walk home. We gotTA write about halfway to dance. House from Randy stokes we got back to Dandruff Fritz House and I spent the night there we then went down to dance basement and talk there for awhile. Debbie Dreifort came down and we discussed the possibility that Kevin Young might have done. It started from Shane and John who had heard about a month before that Kevin Young wide to kill both Dan and Lisa because he had been with Lisa for two years in. Dan had stolen her or taking her away from him. After a while we went back up to Dan Room. We just talked until pretty late and went to bed then. The next morning Saturday September Fifteenth Nineteen Ninety. Dan had to go to the police station. And I got a ride home for Mrs Dreifort to the best of your knowledge who knew that Liza was planning to come to dance house on Thursday night. Dan dreifort Myself Tax in Kim. Coal may have because she was over at Lisa's house at night. They may have talked about it. How long have you known Dandruff? `Red I've been friends with him since. Winter of ninety-nine could you briefly describe the android effort? He's had a rough family life because of that he's been kind of extroverted in a sense. He's pretty much always joking around. He's truly social. If he feels something different he'll always put on show of being in a good mood talking and stuff under that. He's Afraid Trust people talent and he has a sense of what he should do. Lisa was one of the only person he really trusted. He hasn't had that many people that he can trust. He loved very much. How long have you been friends with? Lisa pruitt pretty much the same as Dan. I had done some stuff with her before but it became good friends with her that winter of one thousand nine hundred nine. How long have you known techs? I don't really know him that. Well just pretty much know of him and probably no more than six or seven months. Could you briefly describe techs from what I know? He's not really concerned with school more rebellious. He's not really violent but he's got a lot of anger at things. Seems like a really nice guy a person. How long have you known Kevin Young? I know I'm Dan driver and probably about six or seven months. Also could you briefly describe Kevin? Young extremely touchy very powerful. A sense of that physical sense of strength very angry. He likes to joke around about things but you never really know if he's serious or not. He's always on edge like wired. I really don't know him that. Well have you ever observed dramatic changes and Kevin Young's personality? I haven't but I've heard about the changes taking place. He always seems like he's sort of about to burst out or go over the edge or something he makes you feel uncomfortable to be around. Can you describe Kevin Young's relationship with girls? He takes things too seriously about them. If they'll do anything like being nice to him or something he'll take that as a fact that they like him more than they actually do with the girls. He's around. He's very possessive about them. He missed controls and takes to personally. What their actions towards him are any Conrad and I were at a party. She was one of the girls I felt he was in love with because he knew from band. I was kind of going out with her at the time whenever she would come over and talk to me or come and sit by me. He'd give me this really dark lances. He was trying to get drunk. He was acting really angry and hurt kind of he basically simmer down after I talked to him a little bit and he said to him that she didn't want to be around a guy who gets violent when he drinks. He just made me feel really uncomfortable. Basically can you think of any other example of Kevin? Young's behavior with girls he s Becca boat right to prom but I can't really remember. She refused. I believe she refused. He began the hater for that in verbally. Despair her and he made a lot of comments about her seem angry he then asked Ellen. Donald who is a freshman and he was a senior. She told him that her parents wouldn't let her go. He seemed angry at her to about this. But that's all I heard to the best of your knowledge. Have any of your friends abuse Robitussin Cough Syrup? Yes several I tried it once in Andy. Conrad Becca Boat. Right and Dan driver in Texan Debbie dreifort also. Could you describe what affects using Robitussin? Had on you. I took along with alcohol. Nobody else really did. That became extremely nauseous. I couldn't see straight really. I had distorted perception of what things really seemed like. It became extremely talkative. Kinda dizzy getting feeling really nauseous. That's the only time I ever tried it. How does a young man with no ties to the crime scene? Become the main suspect in a murder investigation. It happens one flimsy story at a time. Remember that game will use to play in school Chinese whispers. We called it the telephone game. A rumor starts and it's passed like a virus through words from one person to another until it changes into something new and altogether dangerous. Listen for it in this interview with Jennifer Margolis. A sixteen year old high school student. Who is about to point the finger and Kevin Young simply because she heard his name at the right time. When I found out that Dan DREIFORT had come back. I wasn't a youth ending hunger meeting after school. Judy Miller came into the room to tell me that Dan was back. She was very excited once I realized who she was talking about. I was also very excited. Shortly after she came in Kim Rathbone came to the meeting and she was very excited. Emotional which is how gets. There was an element of surprise because we expected him to be in there longer because he said he had fulfilled has requirements to be able to leave the program at the clinic. Basically we were all surprised and excited that he was back. I talked to Lisa pruitt that night. It was before her flute lesson. She was rambling on about how wonderful her lifeless and how wonderful that day was she was excited like the rest of about Dan being back and especially because he was special to her Chad. Been down about band camp and the beginning of the school year because you couldn't do anything for him and she missed him a law and she kept saying that the only thing bad about the day was that she could not see him as much as she liked. She saw him momentarily after school and I asked her if she could go over later that evening and she said she had to go over to her foot lesson and her mom was making a special dinner in honor of her getting her driver's license. She said her father and she might stop at Dan's house after her flute. Lesson and her father only wanted to stop and say hi so they could get home for her celebration when we were talking about what a good day had been. She was listing. The things that had made it that day primarily Dan being back as she got her driver's license. I told her not to forget that I had given her a necklace that day that she had ordered from my grandmother's jewelry store when we were discussing her going to dance house after flute lesson. I mentioned. Can't you see him later that night because sometimes they met done because with his family situation the way it was. They didn't get a chance each other often. She said Yeah I was planning on it. I think then we just talked for a few more minutes about everything was great and then we both had to go. That was the last time I spoke with Lisa so I think that about wraps it up about my impressions today that Dan came back. I also needed to talk to you. Guys about Kevin Young. I found out that Kevin was a suspect or I heard the rumor that he was suspect on Saturday night. Right after Lisa was killed. It was judy who told me that because she heard it from Becca boat right. That was at Dan's House on Saturday. Night the minute Judy told me and got really upset. For some reason it had never occurred to me before that he could be a suspect. Because I was running through a list of people in my mind that I thought might be capable of doing something like this or new. She might have been going over there. And although I thought of everyone had ever seen at Arabiya Kevin never came into my head but the minute Judy told me I believed it. I mean not so much in my head but in some non thinking way I believed it because he was the only person that had ever entered my mind that I felt was capable of doing something like that. That really shook me up so I started thinking about why I was so convinced that it was he and the more I thought about it. I remembered about three or four conversations. I had with him. Plus the general knowledge that he was pretty disturbed. Rachel Lowenthal and Ted Volkmann and Aaron Miller and I had gone to see you hunt for Red October at the colony theater. I know it was a bridge tonight for my parents. Afterwards we went to Air Beka and Kevin Wiser and eric and Anthony. Garvin their brothers Kevin started talking about gays and was making offensive comments and I always felt bad for him but I was never able to tolerate when he talked like that. So Aaron I got up and went downstairs and when we came back upstairs they were talking about Kevin's favorite topic of discussion. Which was how all women hated him and how he hated all women and why he even tried to have relationships. This was how he had talked in the past but there was a specific time that I was reminded of as I listened to him. Talk that night which was another night when I was up Arabic and he was telling me and I think Rachel and I don't remember who about a girl he had liked in middle school. I mean one of those typical perfect people whose parents were going out of town and she was inviting Kevin over to her house. He got the impression that there would be something of interest to him going on or just interests that she wanted to spend time with them. He said when he got there he was already a little drunk and she and her boyfriend and I think that some friends of hers. Well so there. I'm not sure about that. Had laughed at him and kicked him out. They made him leave. He was upset about it. And he went from this one situation to condemning all women he referred to women as sluts and bitches and whores. That was the way he talked. I remember feeling bad for him that he would feel that way. I think except for that incident. That's pretty much it. That's what I was thinking the night we saw hunt for Red October and when I was listening to him I remember. He was talking about Dan and Lisa specifically. He was saying that he could never get any women himself. And I'm sure there were derogatory. Usually he said I hate bitches. I hate sluts. A lot of kids talk. That way is an insecurity thing. He was complaining. How guys like Dan could get sluts? Like Lisa to suck on Cox and how Kevin didn't have anyone and raving on about home fair. It was the conversation change to more normal topics. The next thing I remember that scared me was that same night but later on when we were sitting out on the lawn in front of our Beka and Rachel and myself and this Guy Chris who worked at Captain Tony's and Kevin and I think one or two fight guys people who hang around school and don't attend classes and Kevin was talking about how he didn't ever seem to have any successes with women at all he said to Rachel and I that if we ever got the chance he was sure we would reject them and our friends would reject him. He said that if he would go out with a girl he would call her a week later and she would put him off and ignore him basically. He said how he didn't like to be ignored and said I won't let people ignore me. Rachel said how can you change? How people feel if they don't want to see you. There isn't much you can do about it. And he repeated that he wouldn't be ignored and that people can make impressions on people and has been done and then Chris who is a serious pragmatist. Said well a good impression or a bad impression. Kevin said whatever works it was Kinda chilling at the time and worse when I remembered it in this context in the context of what happened. Kristin asked coven well. Are you talking? Lake Hitler or something and Kevin said well. It made an impression. Didn't it there was a silence and we change the subject. I think the most recent time I talked to him was when Dan was at the clinic and Rachel and Charlie Martin and I had stopped a rebecca and Kevin was there with can meet some Oto. The two of them came and sat down next to us. And we're talking about Dan. Ken Set to Rachel. I haven't seen you all summer. Where have you been? She had been to interlocken and she was kidding. And said I was in Rehab. He believed her and she said she was kidding. And then we talked about Dan and then. Ken said well isn't Dannon Rehab. Neither Kevin or Charlie said much about the situation of Dan being at the clinic. Then Rachel a Nice set them straight where Dan was and why they talked about some ridiculous rumors they heard and Ken talked about when he was in Rehab then Kevin said well. I'm sorry he's there. Meaning Dan Kevin said I have unfinished business to take care of. I remember thinking that sounded ridiculous. I think I laughed at the time. Then he said with him and a slut and it was either the slut or bitch or whore in reference to Lisa Kevin continued and said I was GonNa fuck with him real good but now he's not or something along those lines when Kevin set that I looked at Rachel as she looked at me and I said you don't need to talk about our friends like that and he apologized and said sorry and continue to talk about Dan when Kevin said what I said before then Rachel said it was nice to know your friends support you when you're in trouble. And she was trying to guilt trip him into shutting up as far as I remember that was all. I wanted to talk to you guys about when you refer to lease going over to Dan's house late late that night. Did she usually go to dance house or did he come over to her house? I know she had gone over there at least once before because she talked to me about it but I think more often. He went to her house late at night. When I talked to Dan La Sainte. He said whenever she came over I waited for her and he gave me the impression that she had gone over there more than once. Have you ever known Lisa to use any drugs or alcohol drugs? No when we were in Germany she got a little bit tipsy and we all laughed about that because it was so uncharacteristic of her other than that no. Is there anything else that you wish to add to your statement? The date is now September. Twenty second nine thousand nine hundred ninety. It is one week after Lisa's murder Kevin. Young the weird kid in school is the primary suspect they have consulted with the FBI. Already about how to get Kevin to confess to the crime and only now do police. Detectives sit down for a formal interview with Kim Rathbone. The sixteen year old girl who lives behind Dan. Dry for its house. She has been holding onto some very important clues though. Her memory is already a bit foggy. Are you a student? Yes where at Shaker Heights. High school what grade are you in eleventh? Are you aware this statement is being recorded? And is this being recorded with your permission. Yeah and is your father aware that we are recording the statement at this time? Yeah Kim could you basically explain how you know Lisa Pruitt and also how you know Dan Dreifort and go back and give me a little bit of background information on how you know these people? I met Lisa once in fifth grade in the band and we both played the flute together. And I didn't. That's how I knew her. And Fifth and Sixth Grade Seventh Grade. I went to middle school with her. And we were all part of the same group all kids at hung around together and middle school and in high school but I grew closer to her from eighth grade on as friends like closer friends. I know Dan dreifort since sixth grade. He lives right behind me. So we've always been people who if you can't find anything else to do you? Just go over to their house so I knew him better than I knew Lisa. He's one of my very best friends and Oh I went out with him in sixth grade which is nothing it was like for a month or something and we walked to school together and stuff like that. Is that all you want know? Okay what contact you have with. Either Lisa Pruitt or Dan driver on the day of Thursday September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety to the best of your knowledge. Okay well I. I'll tell you about Dan I 'cause he's not That was the first day that he back from the hospital. And Lisa and I were sitting down together. I was helping her with chemistry which is funny. Because she's the smart one and We were sitting down and he came around the corner like he'd been there the entire time so I saw him then. Got Hugs and everything. 'cause I hadn't seen him for a while except for like on weekends when we had a pass home and Then after school I went over and I was cutting his hair because that was my special treat for seeing him at home because he never let anybody cut his hair. I got to do that and then my boyfriend asked to. Danny's house so he came and picked me up and said hi to Dan and then we left. Not Till I saw Dan. We were just talking and Lease I sought school. I had lunch with her and beyond with her. And maybe now and then in the halls when everybody else R. O. N. Sheikha right with her. That was period. And that's when we we had both finished articles so that's why we were seen in the halls on our way home. We were anxious to get home and Then I saw briefly after school and then I went home and I went home and I saw Danny and cut his hair. That's all I've seen except I had heard her scream that night. Not knowing that it was her but I didn't know that she was coming over either their screams all the time around Lee road and South Woodland and I was doing my history and I put it off and when I heard the scream woke up and looked and walked through the house and it happened toward the back of the house. My little brother leaves his window open and our rooms are connected. We're through a bathroom and the bathroom doors were opened and his window was open and I hear her scream and I went off and I looked at my window to see if there were any bicycles or cars or anything. There wasn't anybody. I thought it was weird but I still didn't do anything about it and I found out Friday at like seven o'clock seven in the morning. Yeah and we didn't even know it was Lisa. It was like tapes and dogs in everything and we didn't even know it was Lisa and stuff so my parents were all in front of the House. My grandmother lives with us and my brother sleeps like a bump on a log and he didn't notice anything and I guess. My Grandmother's windows were shot. I don't know why she didn't hear. Do you remember about what time that was? You heard those screams around like twelve thirty just a little bit after twelve thirty. I was hoping that it wasn't her? But but just from I heard from other people and everything putting everything together. It seems to be so. I'm not even absolutely sure that it was her but it just seems like the normal way. Or how do you know about what time it was? Were you aware then what time it was or did you just Kinda here. What time it happened later and then I glanced at the clock when I heard it. I don't know why because I was just like working really hard and it was distracting me out of my work so I just glanced to see what time it was so you were awake at the time. Yeah I I was up doing your homework studying my history to remember what the clock exactly what the Clark said in other words between twelve thirty and twelve forty five because I went to bed at one but it hadn't was then so that I understand you correctly. Your bedroom faces segue back. Yes on what side of the House towards facing the house towards South Woodland. Say if you're facing your house is your bedroom towards South Woodland towards Shaker Boulevard. South Wetland may parents towards Shaker Boulevard. The last time you saw these approach was on Thursday at school. Is that correct? And did you see her anytime after that? Did you hear or mention or did she tell you what her plans were for the evening? I didn't even know that. She had been over at Dan's house before she had left the house for the night. I didn't even know that she had been over there for then. I think I must have. I don't even remember what I was doing that night. Ate Dinner With my family That's about all I remember. Sometimes you can hear from Dan's backyard. You can all the time here. If our screen doors are open you can hear what goes on in the houses themselves so guess. I just really wasn't concentrating on what was going on over there. Describe for me as best you can with the scream sounded like like a scream like somebody was scared. I was just it. Didn't exactly sound like a place cream like when you hear people are driving by and stuff. And that's why I got alarmed and I looked in stuff but it still didn't actually occur to me that it might be somebody really getting hurt because I don't know why it was. Somebody being scared. Does it sound like a male or female female definitely? Yeah did you hear? Was it a long scream or just like series of short screams. Was it like continuous. It was It didn't last for our. You know it was a long one and then there was a long one and. I don't know how you define what you're short in which is long but long. Did you hear the person that was screaming yell out any words or any names or was it just a screen? Justice a scream. I didn't hear anything else. What time did you go over to the driver's house on that day it had to be after four Last until bed it wouldn't have been much after Oh I remember why my friend came over. We were studying for the history test in the afternoon. Also I just switched from a higher to a lower class and she was making me. Take the test. Anyway It must have been like four fifteen or four thirty. Pm So about half an hour or forty five minutes or something so you went over there between four fifteen and four thirty PM and you're over there for about forty five minutes and the I guess so. Who else was at dry foods at that time outside with us. No one just you and Dan Yeah me and Dan and Babbitt. After my boyfriend had come he came over and said Hi. That's Brian Keating. Yeah Bryan Keating. Did you see anybody else drives house? I'm trying to remember whether his mom was home or not. I don't really remember whether anybody was home to the job in the house at all. No we stayed out in his backyard and that porch area. Yeah and you cut his hair then right. Yeah in general did you. Dan Talk about that day. Oh well he had just gotten back. He was telling me about the people that he had seen. And just for some reason. I Remember Brian. Coming over and saying well. How do you like freedom now I guess? Oh Oh I had sent him a care package. It was just mementos and stuff. When he had entered the hospital I gave it to his sister and his mom to bring but I wanted some of it back because it was the only things that I had about him and he had stuff about me so I still needed those things. So he returned them back to me He gave me a little stamp just as a joke then like a big surprise was cutting his hair and we were talking about how short he wanted his hair and whether he wanted me to put it in a point in the back or not just the way he wanted it and said that he trusted me and I could just do whatever I wanted to yet complete faith in me and I guess that's just about it. Do you talk about his plans for the afternoon or evening. No mention anybody was coming over that night to visit him. No if I had the chance than I was supposed to call him a gun but I had to study for the history and then eat dinner and then I had other work to do so. I didn't end up calling him so you never talked to him the rest of the evening after that. 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And we said this is customizable. You can go in and you can pick your recipes. You can pick your meals that you want to receive. I chose this one because one of my favorite restaurants down the street makes this and it's delicious and I said you know what I'm taking on the challenge. I'm making it at home and I knocked it out of the park with hellofresh. You know I liked about that meal. The meat quality yet sausage was amazing. Go to hellofresh dot com slash garage ten and use code garage ten for ten free meals including free shipping. That's hellofresh dot com slash garage ten and use code garage ten for ten free meals including free shipping. Check OUT HELLOFRESH. Dot Com slash garage ten. Today I'm going to ask you about some people that are friends. Or maybe you friends of Lisa's. That are friends of Dan's or maybe all mutual friends. And tell me what you know about them. Do you know a fella named Ken Workman the column Techs. Oh yeah sorry about that. How do you know him? He's Debbie's boyfriend W dreifort. He's Dan sister's boyfriend and I went to see Dan with him and her andy once when he was in the hospital. Andy Who Conrad. She's a girl and backup boat right and He was really nice. He didn't look like the kind of guy that would be really nice to somebody just being the first time that I had met him and I just liked him a lot. It was a really nice person and he seemed to care about Debbie Lot. Did you see him that evening? Tax Yeah no. I just seen Dan. Do you know Chris Jones. Yes okay. How do you know him from school? Yeah I can't even remember how long I've known him. Probably just since ninth grade but this year I have more classes with him and stuff. I have study hall with him and launch. An English is really nice. He's a sweetie he has these op necklaces. That he wears and always lets me wear it if I like. It is friends with Oh I forgot to tell you tax. I think had met Lisa a couple times. But he didn't really know her. And then Chris New Dan real well and he knew Lisa real well too about Dan Messenger. I've known him since either. Seventh or ninth grade and In ninth grade. I hung around with him a lot and that kind of drifted off. I guess he knew Lisa Real well and he knew Dan real well and him. Dan used to go over to dance house and mess around with the camera and stuff like that these pictures that they would take he was real good. Franz with both of them he was really upset. Do know anyone that might want to hurt either. Dan driver or Lisa pruitt. The you are aware of what actually do it or that. I think might do it. That might do know of saying somebody would actually do. Something is you don't know we don't know yeah. I have a hard time believing that anybody's capable of it but my guess is Kevin Young Kevin Young Wealth. He used to threaten them all the time. He used to stay weird stuff like what he said he wanted to well. He was in a mental or psychic order. Something when he was a sophomore and he said that he wanted generally. He said he wanted to get back at the rest of the world for putting him through what he had been put through and he was going to do something to make everybody remember him and he said that he was. GonNa get Lisa. He said that how come Dan could get any good girl. He wants getting something girl that he wants to into suck his dick but he can't get anybody stuff like that. He scary. But you never think anybody's actually going to do something even though they talk. Have you ever heard of any of these threats from Kevin Young directly or do you just hear about them to me not to you but did he ever make threats against Dan or Lisa and your presence He well I sat next him in biology because he couldn't finish it his sophomore year when he was in the institution. Whatever it's called. He must have said something like that every now and then not really often but do you remember any instance that he actually made threats in your presence. I don't remember a day. It was in biology. He did that one. But you heard it and you were present. Do you remember what it was exactly or as close to exact as you can remember? He was saying like while it was nearing senior project. Do you know what that is no split? That's in high school when seniors I think it must be in mayor something when seniors don't have to take their last set of finals because they do like a project or working project or something okay. Una what you manned. They don't have to take the set of finals and he was just It was nearing Ben because he was only in their second semester with me and he said he was just so happy to be out of there and he just wanted to hurry up and get out and he was gonna make everybody remember him. That's the one when he was angry at the world for putting him through this but what I was talking about specifically did he threaten Dan. Dry furred or Lisa pruitt directly in your presence just the world just the world and this was in his senior year. Yeah the WHO's GonNa make everyone remember? Would that mean to you and your mind while it was kind of freaky to have something like that said to you but I guess I'm kind of weird because I just put those kinds of things out on my mind. Just Kevin's weird. I'll stay away from him and that's it and I won't have to worry then Ryan. Keating sat next to him and beyond all the time in my concert band and he said that he used to hear Kevin talking all the time but he never thought anything of it and that he'd actually act on it. Did you go on any of these band trips to Germany like to Germany? Yeah was Kevin Young there. Yeah did anything happen on that trip? Out of the ordinary significant That's when Dan and Lisa were really kind of started like going out. I guess was there any difficulty on the trip with any member of the band? Did anyone get in trouble? You mean with any relation to this or did anybody get in trouble in general. No None Anybody. Anybody that's connected with this group of friends that we have discussed. No I don't think so. I remember this one girl. But she's in the band and so she had some kind of relation to Lisa. But I don't really know her. You See Kevin Young at all day of Thursday September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. I haven't seen him for a long time. I haven't seen him since school. I guess now I'm GonNa ask you a question and the answer I don't care about who's involved in. What but did you ever hear anything about any kind of parties at drivers involving Robitussin Drian Robitussin to get high? Do you mean. Did I ever hear of a party that we did that or did I ever hear about them doing that period? Did you ever hear about them during that period? Yeah Okay what do you know about that? I know it doesn't show up on your drug test. It always comes up negative and you can just tell them that you had a bad cold You want me to tell you who did it or how they did it or yes. Oh yes I don't really know how they did it. I could never figure it out really. I guess they drink a lot of it. Maybe they like the taste. Were you ever present when anybody ever did this? I I just I saw the bottles but I was never present when they ever did it. Okay so how did you know just just by seeing the bottles that somebody didn't just have a bad cold? Oh no no. Dan had told me about. It would tell you about it. He told me that he got high off of those because that way he wouldn't ever really be using any real drugs and he could still feel good. I guess and that was just I can't remember who the people he said he'd done it with they. Were I remember when I was there? Jamie Greenfield was there with me in the same room. And I think Steve Somebody. I don't remember. Do you know who they are their friends of Dan's. I don't think they ever met Lisa. What are their names? Jamie Greenfield and Steve. Something they go to my youth group and that's how they know. Dan is through UNITARIAN youth group. I remember it was in his dining room that they took off the bottoms and he showed them to me and I was just like what are those. Deon showed you those yeah. Dan pulled them out of like a paperback full. I mean not all the way up to the RIM. There was like seven bottles or something. Did he ever tell you what he felt like when he took Robitussin? He said the first time that he did it. I'm trying to remember the words. He used what he used to describe being high. Did he mention other than being high? Any kind of unusual reaction or effect that it had on him. Well I remember him. Talking about his friend was just totally like out of it talking about like going into a forest or something like there are trees right there who loosening or something to remember who the friend was. He talked to know. You have to talk to Dan about that. He knows that but I don't ever remember him talking about. I mean he never hallucinated like that. I don't think he ever did it to the point where he was like that. Why are you asking me about the Robitussin? Anyway it's just something that's come up in other statements in conversations so we have to clarify that well. Dan doesn't drink anymore because he was ill with Robitussin. I don't even know how he heard of it. I don't know how he did it either. That's why I ask if you might have known anything about it all right. I'M GONNA turn the tape over to the other side now to your knowledge Dandruff. I have invited Kevin. Young over to his house for any reason lately. Yeah lately I don't think so. 'cause hand Am I allowed to swear on this sure? He had called Kevin and asshole which he is. I mean he's a jerk really so I remember him talking before like at the end of tenth grade. Who talked to him before Dan? He just said that? That's when bill DeMarco was there and the three of us were sitting down and he said that you know you don't know who that is either though demarco no. He's home this weekend from Bowling Green. He just graduated last year. And I said Damn heard you've been hanging out with Kevin. Why and he said that he had done one or two things cubbon and decided that he was kind of a jerk and just Kevin Cup hanging around. Kevin was kind of being pushy but Dan didn't want him around. I remember that I hadn't even thought about Kevin since back in the tenth grade. When was the last time you saw Kevin? Young that you can recall. I think I recall ever talking to him or just saw him less time. You saw him in the tenth grade. You haven't seen him since then. I didn't know if he went to college early. Or I don't really care so that would've been in the spring or early summer of nineteen ninety this year right. Yes what do you know of Kevin? Young's feelings towards Lisa Pruitt. If he had any feelings towards her you mean out of his mouth. I don't really know but we're calling from other people's mouths and just everything that I've heard you mean since Lisa's death or before then and before but mostly sense Lee says Jeff that It seems like he might have been jealous of Lisa. Spending time with Dan not like him being jealous of Dan because he has Lisa. It seemed like it was the other way around just from what I've heard. It sounded kind of weird. Okay so this is what you've heard from other people. Yeah who has been talking to you about it Jennifer Margulis. I've seen around lately. Lisa me and her head. Diet jokes going on. Which was we had a Scrivano sisters and I had just gotten grounded. A lot in ninth grade. That's when it started and we just thought about a lot of weird names. Jennifer was fat. Lana Lisa West Chicano and I was a no no and we were the Turk of Ana sisters would sisters Turcoman. It's just a name. We meet up and we had. I guess we had taped a whole bunch of commercials and put them all together and it was something like Oh henry bars and sprite and something and it was just like a simple thing just to make us laugh. 'cause we had set next to each other like in a row and band and Was I was grounded. They brought me a package of the pop and the ten of those. Oh Henry Bar thingies and gave them to me in a care package to make me feel better because I was grounded. Have you ever heard or do you know of Lisa? Pruitt sneaking out of her house going to dance house prior to the incident or Dan sneaking out of his house. Gordon Elisa's have you ever heard of that? Have I heard it from them? Yes from Dan or Lisa. No have you heard of it from anyone else before the incident. Yep but it wasn't even a big deal. It should have been but it wasn't would did you hear that. Dan used to go all the time like to Lisa's house. I don't think that I'd ever heard of Lisa going to dance house. But he used to go to her house and they'd sit down in his basement and bring his guitar and they'd playing songs. But that's all I heard. I just kind of disregarded it you never heard of Liza coming to his house. No and they never talked about it to you. Not really well. He was gone for a month. I had been working. I had driver's Ed in the morning on weekdays and I worked in the afternoon so there wasn't really a lot of time for me to see him in the beginning of summer and then I had called him to see if he wanted to go out to a movie with me or something and that's when I found out he was in the institution so then every chance I got. I talked to Debbie and his mom to see how he was doing things like that. What were you aware of the thing or Dan mention anything to you about the relationship between Mr and Mrs Dreifort and Dan? How did they get along? Well Dan and his father have always had this thing going. I mean it's a lot. It's a lot less worse now. I mean I haven't because I told you when the screen doors are open. You can hear everything you could hear. Dan's father screaming at him. For whatever reason. Just clean your room and shave. And why don't you help me with this and stuff like that? I always heard stories about what had happened when they were younger. Like what like what? Well they're kind of far fetched. I never knew whether to believe them. Or not But I had heard that his father had gone violent with Dan and Deborah and I think his mom I'm not sure and that's why Dan's started lifting weights in the sixth grade. He wanted to stand up to his father and I had heard at once and the sounds really far fetched but I remember it and I don't remember whether I heard it from wwl Dan but when Dan was little he had to use the bathroom and his father said No. Hold it as long as you could. And then he couldn't hold it any longer so he ended up winning his pants and his father got mad because he wet his pants and like pushed his head into the toilet or something. It sounded very far fetched. And I'd always known Mr Dreifort as long as I've known Dan and I've always known him to Yo but I had known him to use violence. Is there anything that you know or anything that you feel? That could perhaps help us in any way in this investigation you mean. Is there anything other that I could tell you some tip or something that you've heard or anything that might have thought about? Tell him to. Please were thought about calling us and letting us know something that you heard something that you feel that may be no one else has thought about like maybe a threat or maybe some reason that somebody would want to kill. Lisa Pruitt all I know is what I've heard some of the rumors about who has tax and stuff like that and I really don't believe that Dan or Stan or tax either or any of the three of them are actually capable of they. They wouldn't have done it because first of all they wouldn't have done it to Dan. Stannard tax wouldn't have done it to Dan. Texts wouldn't have done that too and they had no reason in the world to hurt Lisa anyways. They barely knew her. I really strongly don't believe that they did it. That's just all that I've really thought about to tell you just didn't do it. I don't know who did it. Who has stand? Who are you talking about? I heard that Stan was. Somebody stands just a friend of mine. No you know Stan. Yeah you know his last name. No it's funny. I've known him since the ninth grade. But I don't even know his last name but I can recognize him from a mile away. Can you describe him for me is back? Well everybody's big to me. But his big and he has long hair probably down to his well well. It's shorter than his shoulders now. He looks awkward he smokes. I'm trying to remember whether he had an earring or not. I don't think so. Well maybe he does. I don't know about that one. Don't know just just disregard that. Does he go to the high school well. He was kind of he did last year and then he ended up dropping out and then this year he was enrolled a gun and he was caught smoking on school grounds and he was suspended then. He was caught on school grounds when he was suspended. So now he's supposed to pay something or serve something in jail or I don't know I don't remember what the outcome is but he's supposed to go to school the night that you heard the screams. Well it was actually the morning of September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety. Did you hear just before or just after that? Did you hear any other type of noise? That might have caught your attention. That's why I thought it was so freaky 'cause I heard the scream and just looked and I couldn't see anything else so I just said Oh it must have been somebody in their car or something you didn't hear any kind of maybe a car pulling away or screeching tires or not. Even the police. When they came in the middle of the night you went to bed about one. A M Just about exactly where the police were all around looking around. You didn't get up at all. I didn't hear it at all. I was so tired from staying up so late studying and the screams that you said you heard seem to be coming from behind your house. Yeah because my windows in my room are closed. And so was the I have two closets and the door to the hall to Windows and the door to the bathroom. The only one that open was the door to the bathroom so I figured it came from any other direction. It would have sounded more muffled. Did you know Lisa to keep any type of diarrhea or anything like that? I knew that she always shared her thoughts with her friends. I know that she had little poems and stuff that she liked that she would share. Not Worth sharing it with some of them worth sharing it with certain people though. Who else besides yourself would you consider to be her best friends? I don't think I'm her best friend. Just Jennifer was really close to her and Rachel Lowenthal was very close to her and Kim Cole grew close to her in the summer. Dan was really close to her. And Judy Miller was close to her. I guess I'm kind of on the outskirts of people that were close to her. Who would you say would be Dan's best friends? Dan's best friends. Well Lisa. He was very special to me. I don't know whether he would call me a best friend. We spent a lot of time together. Used to share a lot of hidden thoughts I don't know if he would actually call me one. I would like to think that I was one He I don't know who he would call his best friends now. All of the people that I just named were close to Dan. Also and other was one guy that he matt in the institution with him. But I don't know if he would call him his best friend. Do you know his name. Oh he was just talking I was just over at Dan's house yesterday and he was talking to him on the phone. Mike Pagel maybe that's the closest I can call him. I think that's it. Whose first name is Mike. Yeah I answered the phone said this is the dreifort residence in he said is Dan there. This is Mike so I'm really not sure on the last name. I know bill. Demarco spends a lot of time with them before they left. They used to call each other over the summer. Do you know a kid named David Branagan. He used to Babysit Fermi. He lives a couple houses down. He's really nice. Did you see him at all on Thursday? No I didn't know he was home. I just saw him last night at Arab I was with my parents and I said Oh wait a minute. That's David and I went over and I said Hi Bill. Last time I saw him was I think it was right when school was ending and He's on me in the hall caught me and took me to Arab Beka and we were talking and he told me about this girl he met and da Da da. Do you know what the girl's name was Megan? I think he's rooming with her now or he's going to be rooming with her soon. I don't think he's going back to school this year. But he's working down at the in the flats at the Arab who's working a Rabah. Yeah I forgot where he's working in the flats though he told me but I can't remember very thin else. You wish to add to your statement. That would help you really. I don't think so here. We come to the moment. The detectives make their move. It happened on September Twenty. Six nineteen ninety twelve days after Lisa. Pruitt's homocide six. Police officers from Shaker Heights drive down to Ohio State University in attempt to get Kevin Young to confess to the crime. They have been briefed by F. B. I. Agents on how best to do this. The profiles told them their best. Chance WOULD BE TO SURPRISE. Kevin and talk to him at night. This episode is sponsored by better help. Whatever struggles you're facing from depression and anxiety trauma and grief better. Help can connect you with a professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. It's so convenient. You can schedule secure video or phone session as well as chat and text with your therapist and anything you share is completely confidential. Best of all. It's a truly affordable option. Our listeners even get ten percent off your first month with this count code garage so why not get started simply go to better help dot com sites garage and fill out a questionnaire to get matched with counsel? You'll love today. That's better help. Dot Com slash garage Shaker Heights as directed and produced by True Crime Garage Co produced by the Philosophy of crime and narration written by James Renner. Stay tuned for episode five.

Dan Lana Lisa West Chicano Lisa Kevin Lisa pruitt Dan dreifort Kevin Young Dan driver Debbie Dreifort Nineteen Ninety Dan Room Dan Messing Dan Messinger Dan's House Shaker Heights murder Judy Miller Dan La Sainte Dan Talk Chris Jones
Shaker Heights - Episode 5: The Crucible

True Crime Garage

1:09:57 hr | 6 months ago

Shaker Heights - Episode 5: The Crucible

"Welcome to Shaker Heights episode five the crucible floating floating falling on the ground I freeze on children's eyelashes and blurred. They're altered vision of the world. They see a different earth than I of candy and playgrounds and eternal smiles. I see the truth cold. Bare trees stripped of life and hard ground. That poem was written by a sixteen year. Old Girl named Lisa. Pruitt not long before she was stabbed. Twenty one times and left for dead behind her. Boyfriend's house in Shaker Heights Ohio in September of nineteen ninety in the hours after her murder. A small group of close friends gathered away from their parents away from the police and made up their minds. The person who committed this crime was the weird kid in school. The Kid who wore metallica t shirts Kevin Young one by one. They went to police and pointed the finger at Kevin and although was not one piece of evidence linking Kevin to the crime scene regardless of the fact that he had an alibi the small town police were taken by the children's stories and they decided Kevin Young was their best suspect. A tragedy was playing out in real time. Just outside of Cleveland and the name of that tragedy was the crucible on September Twenty Sixth Nineteen Ninety several detectives from Shaker Heights traveled to Ohio State University where Kevin Young was beginning his freshman year. Because of what happens next Kevin. Young's life will be quite short. He will never hold down a real job or have any long relationships with women no family of his own he will die at the age of forty four and two thousand and seventeen the detectives have consulted with FBI profiler who explained how they could extract a confession from Kevin speak to him late at night. They said Bring Lots of Candy and Soda. Be Good Cops. Try to make friends with him. Let HIM FEEL SAFE. And so it goes Wednesday September twenty sixth nineteen ninety. Deputy Chief Jim rosiest detective sergeant. Dan Villardo detective top Kosinski officer Ben Hur Secretary Roz and I drove to Ohio State University. We arrived about six. Pm and met with captain. John Petrie and detective Jim Younger of Ohio State University Police Department also present. Detective Sergeant Tim Reid and detective. Tim Ward who had gone to Columbus earlier in the day. The cavs police assigned one of their officers to watch the dormitory to let us know. When Kevin Young came in we planned to make contact with Kevin About eight PM. We then went to the Ramada Inn to get settled and have dinner as of about eight. Pm The Columbus police had not located cabin. One of their officers called the phone. And Kevin's room ask for Kevin and was told he was not in this office than set up surveillance on Kevin's room about nine. Pm We decided to return to the police department. Upon our arrival detective younger explained that one of his undercover officers has just located Kevin Young. He explained that. This officer was dressed as a maintenance man. It was clean a trash room that gave him a direct view of Kevin. Young's dorm room. This officer had just reported that Kevin had left his room. Gone down the stairs and returned with pop. He added that Kevin was wearing a blue woodbury. Run T shirt. I followed detective younger to the dormitory. Rob Houses one of the dormitories. Moral Tower located on the campus at Ohio State University. Detective younger I entered the third or the main floor. This is the only entrance into staffed by students who provide security and limited access to the building. Detective younger identified himself as campus police and we went up the elevator to the fifth floor. There we met with the campus police officer who had seen Kevin Young. He told us that Kevin's roommate and a girl had just left but that Kevin was in the room the door to the quad dorm room number. Five fifty was open. As was the door to Kevin's room which was five fifty four. The open hallway door entered into a small living room. Type area to the rear of this area were four doors. Each leading to a dorm room shared by two students. Detective Young entered the quad dorm room through the open door and knocked on the door. Way To Kevin's room. I waited outside in the hall where I could both see and hear detective younger. Detective younger displayed. His badge identified himself as a campus police officer and told Kevin that someone was here to talk to him. Kevin said to ask him in and detective younger said it was private and suggested they step out in the hall and away from his roommates. It should be noted that we had selected the hallway because the room to the other quad. Dorm rooms were all closed. No one was in the hallway and Kevin's other roommates were in their rooms with their doors. Open Kevin said he needed to get off the phone. Kevin Young detective younger than walks into the hallway. I deduce myself as Tom. Gray from the Shaker Heights police department. As I said Shaker Heights police department. Kevin said the words with me. Kevin Nervously said he had been expecting to hear from us. I told Kevin I'd been interviewing a lot of people who had information about Lisa Pruitt. I added that rich mullany and Jim. Brosius had told me that during his first interview he had offered to come whenever necessary to help us with the case. I told him that since I needed his help. I thought it made more sense for me to come to Columbus. Kevin invited us into his room. I told him that I thought it was private and best be done away from his roommates. I added that I had asked detective younger to get me into the building because that would attract far less attention than the Shaker Heights. Police I went on to tell Kevin the we could use a room at the campus police department and he appeared to get very nervous. I then told him I was staying at the Ramada in about five minutes from campus and that we could use my room Kevin agreed and said he just needed to get some shoes or call home. He dialed the phone. That put it down gotta shoes and asked if he could call later. I told him he could call home in every wanted detective younger. Kevin Young and I walked towards the elevator. Kevin said the stairs were faster so we walked down stairs. Detective younger got into his auto and went on to other duties. Kevin and I got into sixty seven. Eighty to an unmarked Shaker Heights police cruiser during the drive. Kevin and I did not talk about the case instead. We discussed college life dormitory life and classes. He mentioned that he was glad to be at school and that it was an opportunity to begin a new life. He explained that he had not decided on a major but was interested in business. He added that his real interest was in economics and we talked a little about economics. The Adam Smith Foundation. He started in high school and Mr for Resou- his high school economics teacher. We discussed the adjustment to college classes. Kevin said it was an easy transition because what he was doing. A college was a review of what he did in high school. He said he tested out of enough credits. That he will be soft more mid year he also talked about the honors program in Ohio. State that he is currently enrolled in Kevin. I arrived at the motel about nine forty five PM. We parked by number two and took the elevator to the fifth floor room. Five twenty was around the corner to the right as we exited the elevator as we entered the room. Kevin remarked that it was a nice room. He mentioned calling home and asked if he could wait until after we finished. I told him he could call what he wanted and offered to. Let the city of Shaker Heights. Pay For the call. I suggested a seat and make himself comfortable. He sat in the seat on the couch. Nears the window. As I sat on the other end of the couch there was a loud noise like a helicopter from outside Kevin that we could close the Windows. I got up closed both sliding doors and turn the air conditioner on low. I begin by explaining to Kevin that I spent the last two weeks talking to people then gathered as much information as possible in an attempt to figure out what happened to Lisa. I told Kevin I needed some insight from him in addition to just discussing his involvement. Kevin said he was eager to cooperate in any way that he could. I told Kevin that this trip to Columbus was important to me. I explained that we were under pressure from the media and there were some loosens questions I had about his involvement with the case. Kevin responded with a few comments about how bad the television stations are how bad he felt about what they did to Dan. He added that he would like to resolve this before the media gets a hold of the story given us how long we would be and I told him I wasn't sure I explained to cabinet. Since I came to him for help. He could decide when he was ready to stop talking and I would take back his dormitory. He mentioned that he had an eight o'clock class but added that he was a night person. We could take our time. We discussed class schedule and the classes he was taking. I offered Kevin pop and he chose a coke from the CAN I offered I offered Kevin pop and he chose a coke from the can the only way I drink it. I then reminded Kevin that I was a police officer that I was investigating a crime then reminded Kevin that I was a police officer and that I was investigating a crime in which he was still suspect. Kevin said that detective mullany had explained that to him. I told him that he had a right to remain silent in. Didn't have to talk to me. Kevin said he wanted to help. I told him that we could stop or take a break whenever he wanted. He said he knew that as I started to explain that he could talk to an attorney. Kevin interrupted me and said that he understood his rights. He explained that detective mullany had explained all his rights and that he signed a paper that he understood. I asked him to tell me what he thought about the incident. Kevin replied that as he told detectives mullany he was afraid that tax can workman had done it and what scared him even more was that. Tex might have done it for him. Kevin Kevin went on to explain that he didn't know how he could live with the guilt if Tex had done it for him I ask Kevin Y. Tex would do it for him and Kevin replied that he Kevin had been at Arabiya on Thursday. When Tex came in Kevin said he remembers that at the time he was sitting alone at a table and was real upset about a good friend of his that had been sent to the Middle East. Kevin said he remembers texts coming in sitting at a table with him and saying something about going over to Dan drivers and that Lisa was coming over. He remembers the Tech. Said something about hating to be around when Dannon lease are together. I then ask Kevin why he thought Texas would do this. Kevin replied that texts knew that he kevin had a crush on Lisa for a long time. Even though Kevin insisted the crush was over Kevin out of the text was also worried about having an alibi for Thursday night. Kevin explain it. He was feeling extreme guilt even thinking about the possibility that texts might have done this for him. I asked Kevin who was friends with that. Went to the Middle East and Kevin said it was Emmanuel Robinson. He then went on to explain that. Manny was not really a close friend just some when he went to high school with Kevin added that he really didn't even know if many was there but that he had heard that from other friends. I asked Kevin of menu into the service right after high school. He explained that many and he had just graduated together and that he didn't know manny very well. Kevin added that he only spoken to manny a couple of times throughout high school. Kevin just scared him that a kid his age was going to come back. Dead from the Middle East Kevin went on to talk about the draft and how because of his January birthday he would be one of the first kids drafted. He explained that there were going to start the draft next year by drafting nineteen year old kids. I ask given what he thought about the draft and he said he didn't really think they would do. It can then went on to add that he thought the draft was unfair since they spent all that money all those years on a volunteer army. Kevin added those volunteers and reserves knew the risks when signed up and that they should not need a draft Kevin Pause as if in deep thought and I told them I remembered worried about the draft in high school and that they stop the draft. The year I graduated I then ask Kevin if he was worried about the draft and he said not really he did not really think they would have a draft. He then begin to talk about settling through economic means supreme markets and why we were in the middle. He went on to explain that he remembers having long arguments really discussions with students and teachers at Shaker. High School on topics like this when Kevin was done explaining his views on the issues. I asked him if he enjoyed thinking and talking about things. Theoretical kinds of terms. Kevin said yes he he remembers. Kevin said yes. He remembers doing that a lot in economics. And I said with Mr Fabrizio and he said Oh you know him. He's a different sort of guy but we used to have a lot of long talks about economics world politics at anything. Kevin added that his own views were kind of conservative and had allowed him to have some long discussion with with some kids at school. That had really strong views and then he enjoyed doing that kind of thinking and that kind of mental thought process. I then told him that was what I needed help with. I explained that it would be great. Help to me in figuring out what happened to Lisa Pruitt. I asked him to put himself in the place of the person who did this to Lisa. Pruitt tell me a little bit about what he thinks happened. Kevin looked at me with a kind of puzzled look and said just between us and I said Yeah just to kind of help me think. Through the thought process. I begin asking Kevin if he thought Lisa was riding her bike or walking. When this happened looking at me but without constant eye contact. He said that he thought she was riding her bike and that the person grabbed her bike and the bike then rolled into the bushes. I asked him to go on and Kevin Thought for a minute and then turned and looked up the sliding door window and began to explain that the person who did. This really didn't plan on it to happen. He didn't really think about it ahead of time that he was just walking around that night and kind of wandering and Salsa and when these two people got close something snapped something snapped in this. Anger came out that he could not control. He knocked lease offer by grafter and something happened and she was stabbed with a knife and she was stabbed and she died so fast that he got scared. He did not want that to happen and he started acting frantic and crazy and running around and doing real quick because he was scared Kevin Positon. I asked what happened next. And he looked at me and said that he ran from there. Kevin added that he was sure that he will never kill again and that he was sorry. That Lisa died. Kevin said that he probably has a new life away from their Kevin thought from moment then repeated that he got out of there. Kevin added that he was sure that this person will never kill again and that person was so scared. When Lisa died that he will never kill again. I told Kevin that I was afraid that something might snap again that this person might hurt someone. Kevin said he was sure. The person wouldn't because the person had gone on to another life and things were better and this could never happen again. I asked Kevin to describe what he thought happened to Lisa. He said she was stabbed. And then he added. He heard on the news that she had been stabbed. I asked him to explain in greater detail and he said that he thought she was stabbed from the front. Kevin said that he just walked up to her and stabbed her once twice. Maybe more because there was a lot of anger going on giving us to use the bathroom and in fact got stuck in their due to a sticky door. We joked about it. He decided that next time he wouldn't close the door completely. He also got another pop about this time after a couple of minutes stretch I ask Kevin how well he knew the area where this had happened. He told me that he often walks around at night when he can't sleep but that he usually doesn't go to Lee road. He added that most of the time he just walks near her house. He added that he added that most of the time he just walks near his house goes across the street and sits in the stadium at the high school. He explained that he often doesn't sleep well and that he uses the time to think things out for himself. I asked Kevin what kind of things he thinks about. And he said that over the years he has had a lot of problems with dealing with kids at Shaker and he often needed time to think things out. Kevin said that happened when he would say or do something to others. That bothered him. He mentioned dealing with girls specifically but added that things were better now that he had his new life at college. I then ask heaven to describe the area and he said there was a sidewalk and some trees but he didn't remember too much detail. I asked him to try to remember what he could about the area to think in terms of the person who did this and I think what he would do with a knife. Kevin said that he would get rid of it. Only idiot would keep the knife. I asked how he would get rid of it. Kevin real quickly replied. That would be easy. There will be a lot of sewers around if you throw it hard enough. No one will ever find it still thinking in terms of the person who did this. I asked Kevin where the scared person would go to wash. Blood off his hands or to change clothes. He looked right at me and said that the way Lisa was stabbed. This person didn't get any blood on him and didn't get any blood on their clothes and that he didn't know where they would go if they did. I asked him if he was familiar with the lakes and parks in the area and he again said that he did not know where this person would go to wash change. Then ask Kevin to tell me how this person felt and how Lisa felt before during and after Kevin Thought for a minute and said he didn't feel anything before because he was just walking around and didn't know it was going to happen. Kevin said he then felt scared angry because he couldn't stop what was happening to Lisa. I asked Kevin how this person felt. Afterwards he paused and said guilty he added. He thought the person felt a lot of guilt. He then looked right at me and quickly that he thought this person would feel guilty because he kevin always made himself feel guilty about things he couldn't control went on to explain that he felt a lot of guilt about Lisa's death and that he felt he should have been there to stop this person even though he knows logically that he shouldn't feel that way. I asked Kevin how he thought Lisa Feld he thought from in looked out the window and said Lisa knew him and that she felt surprised and that she looked real scared when she realized what was happening. I asked Kevin what this person might have said to Lisa and you said that he didn't think this person said anything to Lisa. We then talked about the possibility that the motive was robbery or rape. He paused lean back on the couch and said that he didn't think Lisa had anything to steal that he didn't think that this person wanted to rape her that it was anger or something snapping and that he didn't think the person was criminal. I ask Kevin if he thought this person heard Lisa screaming and he looked right at me and said of course he would. He added that he is so. Close that the screams would be like yelling in your ear right now. We talked a little bit about what happens to people under stress. I told him that there are policemen involved in shootings that don't remember hearing the shots. He simply said he didn't believe it. We then talked a little bit about how people believe different things. He mentioned long arguments with other students over beliefs and added that he sometimes expressed an extreme view to get people to argue. We talked a little about crimes and how different people have different views on. What should happen to people that commit crimes? I then ask Kevin what he thought should happen to the person who did this to Lisa. Kevin had been very relaxed. He sat right up. Looked me right in. The eyes spoke slowly and deliberately and said that the person that did this should be electrocuted. Should hang or should at least spent his life in prison. He paused then looking away to the center of the room adding that if he is under twenty one years old he should be treated like juvenile. Because we don't have any real rights up until you're twenty one years old anyways and that this person needed help. This person need guidance. And that I should understand that the person didn't really mean to do this to have your Fab to have your fit and your fun. Each satisfied. There's one premium women subscription box to fulfil all your needs FAFSA. Funds Mission is to deliver happiness and well-being to everyone everywhere. And let me tell you Fab fit fun fun keyword right there. This box. Subscription box is a lot of fun family fund is as the captain just said so much fun. It's GonNa make you feel fabulous and it's going to make you feel fit as well and you WanNa talk about value man. There's so much value in each box. 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I told Kevin that that was exactly why I came to Columbus that we shared concerns about the person who did this that I agreed with him that I thought Lisa knew the person who did this that I felt during our investigation. We interviewed the person who did this during our investigation. I explained to him that I felt that it sometime. I would be interviewing this person and that in order to help this person I needed to get through to him that I was from our juvenile unit and was used to help kids get help that the reason I was involved in all the interviews was that I had convinced my boss that this was a kid who needed help and who was not a criminal. I told Kevin that time was running out. Our detectives put together a case to send a criminal jail. I asked for advice on how to convince this person that I understood that he needed help. And that the only chance I have convincing others was for this person to trust me. I explained that someone has to present the case to the prosecutor and that how the cases presented determines what the person is charged with I added viewed myself as a neutral outsider in the judicial process. Whose duty it was to gather facts and put pieces together and present it to a prosecutor explained that if the fact showed evidence of a cold blooded killing then I would be forced to present those facts but if the fact showed that someone needed help then I would present those facts. I told Kevin that my fear was that the person needed help and I would not be able to get through to them. I ask Kevin for his help and asked if he thought that I could get through to this person and told him that I valued his opinion. Because I thought this person was one of his group of friends. Kevin told me he thought that I could get through to this person but that it would not be easy because it would be very difficult for this person to admit what he had done. I then ask Kevin how I get through to this person. Kevin told me that I would have to meet again and again and again with this person and that I would have to push them real hard and get them real emotional and force them to want to talk about what happened. He added that he thought it would really be in the best interest of the person involved. If I kept doing that to everybody until I got to the person so that he could admit what he did and get the help that he needed. I talked to Kevin about how important this trip down here was to me. I told him that after interviewing people most of the day I decided that I had to talk to him and that it couldn't wait. I explained to Kevin many people including my boss believe that Kevin had been involved in what happened to Lisa. I told Kevin I needed his help to explain this to my boss. I asked him to help me explain and told Kevin that I needed help from him to explain his involvement to my boss. Kevin became very defensive and said in a strong voice quote. I didn't do it then. Kevin who he thought did do it and he said he was very scared for texts and that he thought text killed Lisa. I asked if he thought tax was capable and he said the techs had been at his house Friday morning and that texts had threatened to kill Dan Dreifort because he thought Dan Dreifort did it. We then talked about whether Kevin believed that Tex really thought damn driver did it and the conflict between that and Kevin. Thinking the text in it Kevin. Finally said he did not really think texted it but was not sure who else could have done it. I told Kevin I had a lot of unanswered questions and asked him what he would say. If I told him that someone had seen him out of House that night. Kevin quickly replied. No one saw me out of my House. Then he added. It was too dark out there for anyone to see me. He went on to explain that as he had explained to detective mullany. He went to bed that he woke up and was unable to sleep and that he just got up and walked around the house he added that he had gotten a sharp pain while lying in bed. About twelve thirty a M expanded. This made him feel extremely guilty because he felt he should have realized that something was going on that he should have been out there to do something about it but that he stayed in his house he also said that he had talked to his next door neighbor and that is next door neighbor had had the same pain the same time of the night and that he thought that was kind of eerie because he thinks it was right about the time that somebody was doing this to Lisa. Pruitt I told Kevin I was thinking about loose ends again and asked if there was any reason he might find his fingerprints on. Lisa's jeans Kevin. Got Very Defensive. Said his fingerprints are not on. Lisa's jeans and insisted that I take his fingerprints to compare with any fingerprints on. Lisa's jeans. Iceland Kevin that a lot of evidence such as that was still being examined and until such time as we had fingerprints to compare something to we would not be collecting fingerprint cards from any the suspects involved. I explained that his answers met more now. Before we got the evidence back I then told Kevin I wanted to think back to his description of what happened to Lisa. I ask heaven if he was familiar enough with the area that he could draw me a sketch of the area. He explained that he often walks at night. That he doesn't go toward Lee road. I then should him four pictures of the area I asked if he could look through the pictures and see if they gave him a better picture of what happened. He looked at the pictures then. Went Back to the third picture of what was looking northbound at the sidewalk. Only road where the bicycle was found. He stared and looked at that picture as we talked for the next few minutes. I told him that I needed the truth from him that I needed him to be honest with me. He told me that he was being honest and that he did not do anything to Lisa that he did not do it. I told him I needed his help to resolve this either way. I told Kevin detect a mullany had told me that during the first interview he had offered to take a polygraph test. Kevin stated that he was still ready to take the polygraph and added that he would like to take it at any time. I explained to Kevin that it was important to do the polygraph. When it was good for him I added that I appreciate it as cooperation in the in the investigation and that I could arrange to set it up for next week tomorrow whenever he wanted. Kevin asked how quickly we could get the polygraph operator down because he wanted to take it as quickly as possible. I asked Kevin if he wanted to go back to his dormitory and get some sleep. I also told him that if he wanted he was welcome to stay here. He said that if we could do it early the next day he could stay at the motel. He then thought about the fact that he had eight o'clock classes and was concerned about missing classes and wanted to get the polygraph over with but didn't want to interfere with his classes. I told Kevin that I had prepared for the trip. And it brought a polygraph operator with me. I explained that it was up to him. But I told Kevin if you wanted to tonight I could go. Talk to the polygraph. Operator and make arrangements for the polygraph. I explained that it would take some time for the operator to prepare the questions for the test. Kevin said that he would rather do it now. Whatever it took so that he could prove once and for all that he didn't do anything to Lisa Kevin appear to be in a very emotional state. He was smoking heavily. His muscles tensed up and he had a lot of intensity in his voice. I tried to just talk more about things for a while. In order to get a more relaxed for the polygraph. We talked about polygraphs. Police investigations then spent time talking about college in about Shaker at approximately twelve thirty in the morning. I asked Kevin if you wanted another pop. He took a break and went to the bathroom. Kevin was out of cigarettes and I got him a fresh pack. I told him I had two options. Either bring the polygraph operator down and we talk in general about the setup or go to the other room and brief the polygraph operator. Kevin said he'd like a few minutes to sit and smoke a cigarette. So I told Kevin I'd be back in a few minutes. I met with our officers room number five sixteen and explain to our polygraph operator. Tom Cahan Sqi where I was at in the interview. And we discussed key points for the polygraph. Thompkin ski ask if Kevin was rested. Enough to take a polygraph. I then return to talk together while the polygraph questions were prepared. I asked Kevin if you've ever taken a polygraph before then he said No. I explained to him that he needed to be rested. And calm and prepared to take the polygraph. We talked about the late hour and I again offered to let him sleep either at the motel or in his dormitory. Kevin said that he felt good that he felt relaxed and that he wanted to take the polygraph. And get it over with. I told him we had some time until the polygraph operator was ready. We just sat and talked about the adjustment to college. We talked about how easiest classes were and his preparation from high school and said that he was real excited and that he had a whole new chance to get a new life started and was hoping that we would come down and get done with this and he wouldn't have to deal with it anymore because he was really comfortable in his new life that he had started. Kevin also talked at this point in time about his roommate and how somebody college must do a really good job of matching roommates because he has roommate clicked right from the very beginning and he really liked the Guy Lot. He had a nice girlfriend. Kevin then mentioned that he had already met a couple of girls at Ohio State. And how much better things were going at college. He added that just today a girl had walked up and talk to him in one of his classes without him ever having to talk to her do anything and he didn't think about getting a number but he was excited because he would see her in class the next day and would be able to get her number and she would be a new friend to be able to talk to. After we talked for a few minutes there was a knock at the door and he was Tom Cahan. Sqi I introduced Kevin Young and Thompkins. Reggie Thompkins ski then. Brought in the polygraph equipment and began setting it up on the table. I talked to Kevin and asked him if there was anything else I could do for him and he said No. I told him if there were any questions or problems. I'd be in the other room and they could call me at about two. Am I left? Tompkins ski and Kevin Young in room. Five twenty. I went to room five sixteen to wait for the polygraph. To be completed we again discussed the interview. We were just discussing a number of options and I contacted Special Agent Jim. Right of the FBI at home. Jim Wright provided direction for the interview. If it should continue and reminding me the cabinet I could be getting tired. I decided to focus on the polygraph as a break and use the next session as a new time of talking to Kevin. About two forty five. Am when the polygraph test was over. Tomcat Cahan ski left Kevin In Room. Five twenty and came to room five sixteen to discuss the results. He told me that there was slight deception on all but two of the questions however he added that Kevin had an extreme high stress heart rate. That could be related to the interview or just being tired. Thompkin Hansi explained that he had not confronted Kevin with any of the results. I took the note pad with Tom. Cahan skis notes and questions on it and went back to five twenty to meet Kevin. Kevin was still seated at the table. Where Tompkins Haski had conducted the polygraph? I pulled a chair directly in front of Kevin and told him that I was concerned. I explained that he had not done well on the interview as I had hoped. I explained to him that there were a number of questions for which he showed deception. I told him it was late and asked him if he thought being tired had a lot to do with it. Kevin said he thought that that must be it and that he was sure he was telling the truth. I looked right in the eyes and asked him if he did it. And once again he replied. I didn't do it. I then reminded Kevin that we both had been up all day and then gave him some options in terms of what he might like to do. I told him that I was down here to learn the truth from him and to help him and then I would do whatever he wanted to do. I told him one choice was that I could take him back to his dormitory. And if you wanted comeback next week to see him a second choice was to take him back to his dormitory and see him again after classes. The third choice was to continue to talk. Kevin said he wanted to continue talking and that he wasn't tired and felt that he could best help by continuing to discuss the incident. We took a short break. Kevin went to the bathroom and I got him another pop. I didn't start by talking to Kevin. About how important this was for me personally to get through to the person who did this to Lisa and get them the help that they needed. I explained that most of the police department and most of the investigators had kids and that they were only out to solve a crime. Kevin said that he had heard a lot of things about Lucasville prison and he had been thinking about that and that it would be really awful for the person who did this to Lisa to have to spend the rest of their life in a place like Lucasville prison within talk in general about the need to punish adults and to help kids within reviewed how he heard about what happened to Lisa. He talked about texts coming over to his house about his mother. Walking him up about the fact that his mother knew because she'd gotten a call but that his mother didn't tell them Kevin talked about how text was real wild and upset about the whole thing. Kevin said he didn't think much about it until he was at Arab later in the day. I told Kevin I had some concerns about what he said to others about Lisa while he was at Arabic he said he only knew techs told him I asked him what techs told him and he said Techs told him that Lisa had been knocked off her bicycle bludgeoned and raped. I then confronted Kevin with the information. I had that he was insisting that should been stabbed and not beaten and that he was insisting that she had not been raped. Kevin denied that he said that and added that maybe sometime later in the day he had heard on the news or otherwise that she had been stabbed and that she wasn't raped and that he remembers at some point hearing that Friday night and that he figured that must be what the kids were referring to again started to focus on. Kevin and I told him that I was scared and I thought he was involved and then I will really hate for something to happen to them like him going to prison for the rest of his life. I told him I really urgently needed him. To tell the truth. Kevin began moving into seed looked around the room with quick. Darting is he then looked at me relaxed back in the chair and told me that he was tired and then he needed a break. He offered to sleep on the couch for a couple of hours. Kevin said he wanted to get up. Talk some more. And then take the polygraph again to prove his innocence once and for all I discussed my concern that he be arrested for the polygraph. Kevin again offered to stay in the motel room and asked me if I would help him explaining to his teachers if you missed the classes because he had a couple of quizzes coming up. I told him I would help him in any way possible. I asked Kevin if you'd rather go back to his dorm and sleep and he said he was afraid he would spend the rest of the night explaining this to his roommates. I asked Kevin if it was a normal day and he was up till four. Am The current time how late he would sleep. He said probably until ten or eleven am. I told Kevin that I would move my bag out of the bedroom room. Five twenty as a two room suite and that there was a large bed and bathroom and that he could have the sweet himself for the night. I suggested that he just rest and go to sleep and wake up when he was ready to go for the next day. Kevin asked me if he could call his parents and I said sure and offer it again to pay for the call. He then thought about the time said he did not want to worry them by calling at four in the morning and asked if he could call what he got up. I told him sure he then went into the bedroom in five. Twenty and close the door. I straighten up room five twenty little and winter room five sixteen and advised Deputy Chief. Roche's that I was done for the night. I left a note for Kevin Call Room five ten if he needed something. Before I returned it was four forty five. Am Been Retired for the night. I got up about eight a m a little before eight thirty. The phone rang and it was Kevin. He said he was up and ready to go. I told him I was taking a shower and ask. If you've got a chance to take a shower. He said no but he would love to. I told him never towels. So Shampoo and everything in the bathroom sweet and it was paid for and he might as well use it and make himself comfortable and I will be down shortly. I got dressed and went down to room. Five twenty as Kevin was coming out of the back room. He told me he was ready to go and he felt good after the shower. I asked him if you'd like to start with some breakfast. And he said that. That sounded like a good idea. There was a complimentary paper from the motel. I gave them the paper and asked if he wanted to look at it. I asked him again if he still wanted to. Take the polygraph. He said yes. He really needed to prove that he was innocent. I told him I thought he'd be more relaxed. If thompkins Sanski went out to breakfast with us he agreed. I explained that Tomka Handy had gotten up early and gone for a walk. I Left Kevin. Reading the paper for about twenty minutes until I located Tom. I then returned to Kevin's room and told him that Tom Clancy would be along in a couple of minutes. Kevin I discussed the Middle East and a couple of other current news items until Tompkins ski knocked on the door. We ask Kevin where he wanted to eat and he said anything was fine as we walked out of the room door Kevin Remember that he had forgotten to call whom I started to walk back into the room and said I would charge the call to the city. Kevin thought for a minute then said No. He'd rather wait until after the polygraph. When it was all over Kevin Young Tom Kamsky and I then walked to the area of the front desk. Where the Motel restaurant was located and we debated between eating there. Or at the Bob Evans. Next Door Kevin said he liked Bob Evans. So we walk. Next door came at breakfast of coffee and orange juice in French. Toast with about an hour to eat breakfast. Relax and talk. Kevin talked a lot about computer games in dungeons and Dragons Tompkins. He expressed an interest in dungeons and dragons and Kevin explained in detail about using the book. Being the Dragon Master and being a player he said a lot of the kids asked him to be dragon. Master he added that it was tough to be a player after. You've been a dragon master because you knew the book. He said that. A dragon master to come up with a lot of obstacles when players had been dragged masters. Kevin also talked about video games and Nintendo. He was proud of the fact that he had mastered Super Mario Three. He said that it took him like three hours to complete the first time but that after he played at once he could do it in about twenty minutes. He said he played intend to a lot. But that it was really his brother's game. He jokingly said that he has to get along with his little brother or his brother won't let them play. Kevin said he realized he was a little old for some of these video games but said they were at great challenge and a lot of fun. We took our time and walk back to the Moto. Tompkins ski went to prepare for the polygraph and Kevin. I began just talking about things in general I was working to have him very relaxed for the test. I ask Kevin if you felt pretty good about taking the polygraph and he did. We discussed again calling his mother and he repeated that he wanted to wait until after the polygraph. Kevin asked if we would be done after the polygraph. If we could talk a little and I said it was up to him and he asked if I could get some more pop and make sure that we had cigarettes so that we could take some time to talk after the test. He said he already missed his classes. And basically the whole day was spent and if we need to talk about that we could Kevin also said he'd like to talk awhile before he took the polygraph by now he was about ten. Am and we talk until about noon. During that time we discussed the incident again. We talked about how Kevin learned about the incident. And who is friends are? I asked who his best friend was and Kevin mentioned a letter. He was writing to John Hilliard. He explained that he was writing the letter but probably wouldn't send it because he expected to see him in a couple of weeks. He added that in the letter. He told John how well things are going at college. He also said he wrote about his roommate in his roommate's girlfriend. He said he wrote about her. Pda public displays of affection. Kevin added that she didn't really bother him but he just kind of jokingly said those kind of things because people expected to hear that from him. We then got to talking about computers. He said he had an apple computer at home. And it just learned to write in print on it but that was about all. He added that he had to give the computer to assist her. A ninth grader Shaker. Before he left to come down to Columbus I then asked him when he had come down to Columbus. He said he brought all of his stuff on the ninth of September. To try out for band. He said that he changed his mind about band left his stuff in the dormitory and went home. I asked him why he changed his mind and he said it was a lot of things. He said that he was nervous. About being away from home that most of the kids had been down there practicing for two weeks he added that bad also took a lot of time and was only worth two credits he also said he was never really into marching band that he enjoyed music but not marching. He seem nervous discussing band and change the subject. He mentioned a couple of girls that had come up to him in classes and talk to him. He added that they just came up to him and that he did not have to talk I. He went on to talk about how glad he was to be away from Shaker. Who's excited to have a whole new life and was glad to be away from the problems. He had schicker. He felt the kids Shaker. Were tough and related that he had a lot of friends but that they make him feel like an outcast I asked if he was referring to the G G C Kevin laughed and then talk about the girls and boys in about Prom night. He brought up the after Prom Party and told me that he has a tendency to build up his expectations and that he really felt angry. About what the girls did to him. He brought up Arabic and said that he basically hung out there the summer. I asked him how Dan Lisa fit in he described. Dan is best friend of his for a long time and that during the time that Lisa was in town he and dance a lot of time together. He went on to say that between Lisa being back in town and Dan being in the hospital that he really hadn't seen Dan much lately. I then ask Kevin what clothes he brought back from Columbus for his last week. Here I explained that we did not find any of his clothes when we wrote his house. He said all of his clothes were in the clothes. Shoot I told him the kids all remember him wearing one set of clothes he said most of the week. He wore a skateboarder t shirt. Blue Jeans and MOCCASINS. He said on the cool nights he wore a blue plaid flannel shirt. He added that matched what we knew and I said basically I thought from it and asked if he saw Dan the day Dan got out of the hospital. Kevin explained that even though he considered Dan best friend that he had not felt it important to try to get in touch with Dan or to talk to him the day that he got out. Kevin said he was aware that everybody at the high school was excited to see Dan and that Leeson Dan had been around together and at least it was very excited to see him. We talk next about tax. Ken Workman Kevin was in a very talkative mood. During this time period and I was basically listening and letting him talk around noon. Kevin said that he felt good that he was ready to take the polygraph. I left him in room. Five twenty. I told him that I did go to Tom. Geoghan Skis Room and talked to him about setting up for the test. At this time I learned that we had a problem and had to be out of the room by two PM. Jim Brochures had made arrangements for another room if needed also while heaven was waiting for me and five twenty. I Call Jim. Right from five sixteen. I discussed my concern that Kevin felt safe here and was prolonging the interview. I felt that Kevin did not want the interview to end. He felt the Kevin felt safe with me. We agree that we had to confront him and end. The interview. Arrangements were also made with Thompkins skied around the polygraph. And that if it came up clearing Kevin Young of any involvement that he should discuss that with Kevin and that if it came back with obvious deception that Tomkins ski should confront him with the deception and be prepared for the fact that Kevin might look like. He's about ready to admit. And that at that point that Tom Clancy should stop the confrontation and leave the room. And that Kevin thing for a few minutes until I return to the room to complete the confrontation I then went back and talk to Kevin and told him that either we had to be done by two PM or that. We had to move to another room. I gave him the option of taking the test. Right away or having lunch I while. Tom caskey changed rooms and set up his equipment in the other room. Kevin Thought Lunch sounded good and ask. We could go for Pizza. Specifically Pizza Hut. If there was one around I went to ask Thompkin Haski to change rooms and Kevin asked me to get some more coke and cigarettes in case we needed to talk. After the polygraph we again talked about calling home and Kevin said he wanted to wait until after the polygraph test. I saw Tom Jansky in return to the room. Kevin and I then walked to the front desk asked if there was a pizza hut and got directions to one nearby on high street. We agreed to split a pizza and Kevin ordered a medium Pepperoni Pan Pizza. We took our time and again talked about college and college life and being away from home and he talked about how it was scary. It was basically casual conversation. Kevin kept coming back to talking about his friends from Shaker. And how good it felt to be away from Shaker. Returned to the motel about one thirty PM and went to room for twenty one as we walk there. Kevin said that if the test didn't work well he would be willing to spend another night. He added that he felt very comfortable talking and felt confident. That if we talked long enough that we would be able to resolve everything when we got to the room. Tom Hinchey was waiting there for us. Kevin was very relaxed. He asked if he could use the bathroom. I because of the large coke for lunch Kevin went into the bathroom. I met briefly with Tom and told him. I thought Kevin was very relaxed and ready for the polygraph when Kevin came out of the bathroom. He noticeably more tense than he had just been moments earlier. He was all tensed up and rubbing his hands together nervously. I asked Kevin if he still want to take the test and he said he was ready to go. I wished good luck and told him. I would return after the test at a few minutes before three. Pm when the polygraph test was complete Tomkins he left Kevin by himself in room. Four twenty one and came to room five sixteen to discuss the results. He said that he ran two tests that he had cleared exceptions on most of the questions dealing with Lisa that he confronted Kevin with a deception and that Kevin got tears in his eyes but said nothing Tompkins he said he had confronted Kevin directly about his involvement with Lisa and Kevin Again said. I didn't do it at about three PM. Jim Brochures and I went into the room. Kevin was sitting by the polygraph machine on a chair with a concerned almost teary look in his eyes. I ask Kevin if he remembered deputy chief brochures and Kevin said he did. I asked Kevin if he remembered deputy chief brochures and Kevin said he did. I told Kevin due to the pressure on this incident that they had sent deputy chief down to Columbus. Deputy Chief Brosius then left the room. I asked Kevin if he minded if I open the drapes and he said that that would be great. I sat down directly in front of him got very close and told them I was concerned. I sat down directly in front of them got very close and told him that. I was concerned and a little scared about what happened. He knew machine couldn't lie but he didn't understand why the machine was doing this to him. I paused for a couple of minutes and begin to slowly explained. Kevin the situation as I saw it. I told him that if he really was not involved in what happened to Lisa that things would work out then told him. I was afraid that he was not telling the truth. I told him I really wanted a chance to help him. I repeated that the person who did this to Lisa needed me both as a friend and as someone to present objectively to the prosecutor. Exactly what happened? I repeated my feeling that this person really needed help that this person really didn't mean to hurt Lisa and that this person didn't deserve to spend his life in prison or to be executed. I told Kevin I had a number of concerns about his involvement with Lisa. I told him I wanted to go over them with him so that he understood why the pressure was on us to resolve his involvement. I told Kevin I had concerns about how he found out about Lisa and his reaction to her death. I explained that he said Techs told him that Lisa had been pulled off her bike. Hit in the head murdered and raped yet. Kids at Arab told us by one thirty in the afternoon that he kevin had been insisting that she had been stabbed and had not been raped. I told Kevin we didn't understand why watching the five o'clock news listening. Dan as a suspect made it obvious to everyone that Dan didn't do it. I told Kevin I was worried that he kept saying texted it yet. He told us that TEX wanted to kill Dan for doing it. I told Kevin that I was worried that he had made repeated threats against Dan and Lisa. I told Kevin that I was worried about his relationships with girls. I read from his journals. Quote I'm in the popular crowd but I don't like them or quote. I speak on a lonely Saturday evening or quote. My luck will change for the better in the next few months between high school and college each time he asked for and I showed him the paper that I was reading from. I told him I thought the affection between Dan Lisa bothered him and I read again from his papers quote. It really pisses me off when I see couples paired off. I am worth absolutely nothing. He replied that changed and I reminded him what he had said about his roommate's girlfriend's PDA public display of affection. I told him I had concerns about his fantasies with girls and again read regarding. Prom night quote it is not a bash. It is three girls and myself and they are ditching their boyfriends so they can spend the night with me. I asked if he really thought they were ditching their boyfriends on Prom night. He continued to look at me but did not respond. I told him some of his thoughts bothered me like quote. I will kill all undesirables. I must I am hated by virtually all my classmates males think I'm a loser in psychotic. A scar on the schools mere existence females despise me. As if I was the ugliest person on this planet which of course I am. I read the one final thought of his quote if I ever lose control of Myself. Withdraw into an alternative world and let animal instincts takeover. I headed Kevin a copy of that. That was I had Kevin a copy of that passage that was founded his house. Paused then told Kevin that you can't stay in this alternative world that the truth must come out. I Kevin Than I had enjoyed the time with him that it had been a long day and then I had to get back to the real world. I told Kevin A he had to get back to the real world too. I paused for a minute and told Kevin that I felt that he had a number of options. I told him that I felt confident that he was truthfully not involved. That things would work out however I also told him that if he was involved in any way in what happened to Lisa that he could never escape it. I said I felt that until he shared. The truth was someone who could understand him that there would be something deep down inside him. That would never let him get away from this. I told him that until this was resolved. He couldn't go back to Shakur because everybody in Shaker would think of him as being the suspect. I added that he couldn't go back to college because everything in college when now remind him of Lisa? I told him he couldn't go back to anything until he told the truth. I told him he had to clear his conscience. And tell the truth Kevin reacted. He leaned forward. He got real tense and he looked me right in the eyes with tears welling up in his eyes and deep emotion in his voice. He said he could have told me he did. It spent a couple of years in the hospital then got on with his life but he said quote. I've got to tell you the truth and this is the truth. And if I don't tell you this I don't know how I could ever live with myself. He paused for a couple minutes. Then slowly he said I'm scared. I feel suicidal. I have nothing to live for. I feel more suicidal now than I ever have. Since I was hospitalized two years ago he said that he quote needed to be in the hospital. He said for the first time in his life. He realized that he really needed help and that he needed to be in the hospital. He said he couldn't go anywhere but a hospital. I told him that I thought he oughta calls parents and talk to them about getting in a hospital. He said no he couldn't call home. He said No. He couldn't call home because his mom wouldn't believe him and she wouldn't let him go into the hospital. He added that he really needed to be in a hospital in away from his parents. He thought for a minute and asked if he could call his doctor. I told him we could. We walked over to the phone. He had a card in his wallet. For Dr Melvin CEVA NSEN. He gave me the number and I dialed it in. Charge it to the city credit card. Kevin asked if he could talk to his doctor privately and I agreed. I started to walk out of the room until Kevin told me he got the answering machine. He left a message on the answering machine at about four ten pm and said something to the effect of this is Kevin. I need to talk to you. I'll call you back in a little bit. Kevin and I talked for a little while and I told him that I thought he should leave a message with a number for the doctor to call. Kevin felt confident. His doctor would call during his next break between patients from four fifty pm to five pm so we left a second message at about four twenty pm while we were waiting. We discussed a number of the points. We discussed I again. Ask Kevin what he thought should happen to the person that did this to Lisa. He replied that the person should kill himself because he had nothing to live for. And if the person didn't kill himself then he should be killed. Kevin told me he really had nothing to live for and just needed to sit. He said on the bed and was silent for a while. He talked a little more about making friends and how hard it was. He said he had a deep pain inside. And that was so deep. He couldn't tell me he added that he wanted to tell me what it was but that he needed help and he couldn't say it he then looked at me and said he wasn't even sure what it was as five or five. Pm Dr Shave had not called. So I called Shaker. Pd and got detective. Clemma as he was leaving the station I asked him to go knock on the door. Dr Shave Anson's office two three three zero chagrin Boulevard Suite. One Oh five Dr Schloffmans and finally called about five fifteen. Kevin Answer the phone but asked if he could talk privately. I waited outside the door after a few minutes. Kevin came to the door. He told me the doctor Chad Benson could make arrangements to get him help in the hospital however Dr Shave. Hinson told him he had to call his parents. Something About Insurance Kevin the Nasty Pekar call his dad instead of his mom because his mom wouldn't believe him Kevin Tried but got no answer for his dad. Kevin hesitated and didn't want to call his mom. I told Kevin that I felt he knew what he wanted. And if he was strong enough I was sure his parents would support him. Kevin asked me if I would visit him and help him through. This and I promised I would. I again told him he really needed to call his mom because I couldn't stay with him forever and I couldn't leave him alone. He finally called his mom and again stepped outside the room. Kevin came to the door after minute and asked for a pen and paper after another minute. He returned to the door with tears in his eyes. He said he didn't know what to do that. His Mother didn't want him to talk to me and wanted him to call an attorney. He showed me the paper with the attorney's name and number on it. I told them the decision was his but suggested that if he wanted. His parents help that he should follow their advice. Given them call the attorney they talked for a couple minutes then. Kevin came outside. The Room told me that the attorney wanted to talk to me. The attorney asked me where Kevin was and I told him we were in room. Four twenty one of the Ramada Inn on Olatunji River road. The attorney also asked me not to ask Kevin Anymore questions. He then spoke to Kevin again. Would Kevin got off the phone? He told me he was to meet the attorney out front and that I was not even to walk him out Kevin with tears in his eyes. Ask If this meant. I couldn't visit him in the hospital and I simply told him that. I needed to make those arrangements with his parents and attorney. I then walked Kevin to the elevator. He gave me a hug as we waited for the elevator. He went down to the first floor. I went up to the fifth floor and prepared to drive back to Shaker Heights after the detectives were unable to force a confession from Kevin Young at Ohio State University. They returned to Shaker Heights more determined than ever that they had the right man. They needed a real expert to help them. Break Kevin. The next time they spoke enter renown psychologist Dr Murray Myron a professor at Syracuse University. He agrees to consult with them on the case but first he has some questions about Dan. Dreifort I understand that and indeed. That's a very powerful Alibi That the father indicates the Dan was in fact in his room and that they both heard the screams together. That's that's very powerful. There is some. I must say that we we had some difficulty still however with Dan subsequent behavior he after they go out to the edge of the property in and I'll go back into the home apparently satisfied that the source of the scream has left the area or whatever and they can't find anything unusual. Apparently Dan rea exits the house to find the bicycle. And then in fact without telling his parents Calls nine one one on his own to report what he believes to be now suspicious circumstances but then when the parents here the pruitt's outside on the lawn you know and they're distraught in here. All these police vehicles. The CRIME SCENE BEING ESTABLISHED UP. Dan goes to bed falls asleep while the parents are waiting for the plain clothes. Detective to come in and interview them. I found that I found that unusual. I'm in somewhat disconcerted but what we decided here was that Dick and I decided that well. That's not that's academic right. Because it's not Dan that we're going to be interrogating. It's Kevin and whether or not he's the guy or not. We want to give the four shot to use the best psychological coercion. We can. This episode is brought to you by hallmark cards. I recently gave my Buddy Morgan Card to let them know I appreciate them and met so much even cried a little bit. You'll need a special reason. Give it a try. See what a card can do to show how much you care visit hallmark dot com slash garage to shop cards for any occasion and use our Promo Code Garage to get twenty percents off your card. Purchase VISIT HALLMARK DOT COM SLASH GARAGE TODAY. Shaker Heights directed and produced by True Crime Garage co-produced by the Philosophy of crime and narration written by James Renner. Stay tuned for episode six.

Ken Workman Kevin Kevin Young Tom Kamsky Kevin I Dan Lisa Kevin Thought Kevin Y. Tex Kevin About Kevin Nervously Kevin Positon Kevin pop Kevin In Room Kevin Pause Lisa Pruitt Detective Young High School Columbus officer Shaker Shaker Heights
Shaker Heights - Episode 1: A Scream in the Night

True Crime Garage

1:15:47 hr | 6 months ago

Shaker Heights - Episode 1: A Scream in the Night

"Cold season can really slow you down. Ziad Cam cold remedy is clinically proven to shorten colds. When taken at the first sign while other cold medicine simply the mask symptoms find Xichang? HOMEOPATHIC products from rapid melts two nasal swabs at all major retailers including Walmart Xichang. AM products are safe and effective visit Xichang dot com slash garage to receive a two dollar coupon on your next Xichang purchase Welcome to Shaker Heights episode. One a scream in the night on the east side of have Cleveland. There's a quaint little town called Shaker Heights. It's a planned community originally designed by the van. Swear Jin brothers too Suwa centric railroad tycoons over a hundred years ago they built Grand Mansions and gardens and in the middle of the town is a roundabout with a classic movie theater and coffee. Shop today Shaker Heights is an odd mix of upper-class blue bloods severely poor multi generational families of immigrants who live on the edge of town where the big city encroaches nowhere else in greater. Cleveland is the racial and economic disparity of the region so apparent Shaker Heights is the best and worst of everything we have to offer. But it's hard shaker heights is still a small town Tom. It's a small town with a small police department used small town problems and on September fourteenth nineteen eighteen ninety. The murder of a young woman tore this town apart. This podcast revisits the murder of sixteen in your old Lisa. Pruitt who stabbed twenty one times and left for dead behind a mansion at the corner of Lee and South Woodland we present to you the mystery as it transpired. From the point of view of the detectives who worked the case each episode presents reenactments accidents of conversations between witnesses and detectives they have been taken verbatim from official court documents. A classmate of Lisa's uses a young man named Kevin Young was ultimately charged with her murder but was acquitted by a jury of his peers. You will meet Kevin and other suspects along the way as the police build their case against him and at some point you will have to decide for yourself to Kevin Kevin Young get away with murder or did a group of high school teams influence the investigation in order to protect one of their own on the mystery begins just hours after the murder as police sit down with Lisa's boyfriend. Dan Dreifort for his first formal interview. This is detective Richard. Mullany of this Shaker Heights. Police Department conducting an interview with one. Daniel are dreifort at the secret heights. Police Department statement followed by interview. Daniels statement please. How was discharged from the Cleveland Clinic at maybe two PM? Or either that. Or I left the compound at two PM and that was the thirteenth of September. I went home. I put my stuff away and rode my bike to school. That's where I saw Lisa. I surprised her. She didn't know I was being discharged that day. I walked around the school with her and walked her mom's car. Her mom was waiting for her. Must have been about three twenty pm then. I hung out with some friends. Friends and till about five thirty. PM came home and ate dinner. My parents were not my next door neighbor. Cut My hair. That's about when Kenny Workman came over. I don't know what time had exactly but was around eight pm and then my parents came home. We spent some time with them. And then Lisa stop by after her flute lesson. Listen at about nine PM with her father. He was waiting in the driveway. She stayed for about five minutes to express to me. Then something about that. This was the best day the inner life because I got into the hospital and she got her driver's license and everything was just going right then she said or asked if it was okay if she stopped by later. I don't think she gave me a time then. I was with Ken till probably ten PM he left and then I went inside and talked to my mom for a while then. Lisa called sometime between ten after nine and ten after ten and and said that if if she came over it would be between twelve thirty and one. AM The fourteenth September Timbre that she would just throw rock on my window or something like that at about eleven pm. I watch the news and then went to my room at exactly eleven. Thirty thirty two PM. Listen to some music and put away some more stuff in the hospital. My sister called midnight. I talked to her till twelve thirty. He said good night to my parents went to my room. And that's when I heard screaming coming from outside near the corner of Lee and South Woodland. My father said that he looked at the clock doc and it was around twelve thirty. We were concerned about the noise. He noticed that I had shoes on. He asked me to go. Check it out so I went out to the front edge of the property and I saw nothing heard nothing so I went back inside and suggested my father. Call the police but we both agreed that there was nobody out there so not really nothing we could do then. I went up to my room. Put some more stuff away I think. And that's when I remembered that Lisa said she might come over. I don't exactly we know why or when but it was at that point that I suspected it could have been her. That was screaming so I went back outside. It must have been twelve forty five. Am may be an I waited there for a little bit. I think and then I was gonNA Walk to where I might see are coming i. I went to the edge of the property then I went a little further I saw I saw her bike in the bushes. I touched it just to pull it out and make sure it was hers and when I saw that it was I ran back to my house and called. Lisa's uses house. Nobody answered. I got the answering machine but I didn't leave a message and then I called nine one one and told them that my girlfriends bike was in the bushes and I heard someone screaming earlier. So they said they'd send a car over. I waited my driveway in the apron. Now lead the police officer where the bike was. I told them the bikes over here. And I I assume he knew what had happened. He asked if I had touched it and I told him yeah. I asked him if I could tell my parents what was happening opening. He said that was probably a good idea so I went in. I woke my father up and told him that I thought the screaming had been Leeson that her bike was in the bushes. Then there was. I don't know a bunch of stuff waiting around. He talked to a police officer and eventually I went to sleep must have been around two thirty in the morning not long after that. It seems my parents woke me up and told me that I had to come here to make this statement. So that's it before giving the statement. Were you advised of your constitutional rights and did you fully understand them. Yeah have you been promised anything or threatened in any way to make this statement now I I haven't are you presently under the influence of any alcohol or drugs no in your statement. You referred to Lisa. Will you give me her full name and spell it he. It's Lisa Li Pruitt ally. Sa L. E. P. Argue e t t to to the best of your knowledge or Lisa's parents aware of the fact. That leads up was coming to visit. You know they weren't to the best of if your knowledge were your parents aware Lisa was coming to visit. You know they. They weren't in your statement referred to your next door neighbor. Cutting your hair would. Would you please give me her full name and spell it. Yeah it was it was Kimberly Lampson. Rathbone you describe the clothing you're wearing at the time. The police arrived arrived at your house. I was wearing Brown moccasins. Black bathing suit with flowers on it. and a t shirt from a UNITARIAN Youth Conference Toledo showing you a white t shirt brand name. Fruit of the loom size large forty two to forty four with with the insignia on the front and purple and Black Letter Stating Spring Conference Nineteen Eighty Eight Toledo Maumee valley and also containing the words the search for self and the initials. Why are you you on the front? Is this the sure that you're describing above that you're wearing. Yeah that's it. Were you wearing these clothes all day and if not will you describe describe when you change clothing and put on other close. I might have changed into the t shirt when I was discharged from the hospital. But I'm not sure I might've also put it on when I got up. I did take the T. shirt off when I was having my haircut and put it back on afterwards. I I think I took it off when I went to sleep at the two thirty on the fourteenth and put on a blue button up when the police arrived because I may basically because I couldn't find the white t shirt which was sitting near the close shoot. I was wearing a different pair of shoes. I was wearing the moccasins up until the discharge and then I switched into a pair of Converse all stars till probably twelve thirty. I taking the shoes off at some time during the night. Put My moccasins on to go. Check the screaming outside. Could you describe the converse also shoes. You're wearing size nine chuck taylors tie-dyed many different colors. And they're they're high tops. Could you describe what you remember of the screams. The you heard it sounded like someone with a female was being forced to do something they didn't want to do. It lasted lasted for at least fifteen seconds. But I. I can't say for sure a when you heard the screams. Where were you and now I was in my room which is facing and Lee road? It's on the second floor is a room On the north side of the south side of the House. It'd be on the north side when you heard the screams was doing. I was listening to a tape and putting some things away. I had a lot of bags of stuff from the hospital so I was just basic tidying up my room I would tape was it. You're listening to it was Rem's album document. It was a live version recorded in Holland. Not October twelfth. wealthed eighty-seven while you listen to the tape where you wearing headphones. No I wasn't when you heard the scream. Was your window open shut. It was shot was earth storm window on the outside of your window. And do you know if it was down. No not a storm window go. There was a screen a pane glass and in a shade. Half pulled down with curtains over that that were half closed normally would have all been shut. But I'd it opened it on the day before I left. The hospital was the door to your room leading to the hallway or shut. My door was open in adore leading to my parents. Hallway was slightly open and my parents door would have been slightly open. Is there a bathroom between your room and your parents room. Yeah but it's blocked off by a wall unit myron locked on their side so that I understand you correctly you cannot see from your room into the bathroom or into your parents this room. No I can't see anything. Not even the door after you heard the scream action did you take. I went to my window pulled up. The shade looked out now. That was when I heard my father say. Did you hear that and I said Yeah. Did you open the window. Oh Yeah I opened the window in my clothes at a couple of minutes later though after opening the window would did you hear outside all the screaming Continued so that I understand you correctly. You heard the scream. Your father yelled to you something to the effect. Did you hear that you open open the window and then you heard the screaming continue. Yeah was there any pause in the screaming or was it continuous. Now it was. It was a bunch of short screens. You stated previously that the scream sounded like it came from a females I correct yeah in your opinion. Was this scream from older or younger female. I I can't tell I don't know. Did you hear any words cry now or was just a scream no no words just just a scream. After the screaming stopped. What what action did you take? While the screaming was still going on. I went downstairs and out the front door to see what I could see. How far out the front door did you go of the door to the sidewalk? Rate to the edge of our property when you walked out the front door. What route did you take to reach the sidewalk? There's there's a sidewalk leading from our door to the edge of our property. It's a turnaround type sidewalk and has two entrances to it to walk out onto the the city sidewalk which runs parallel to Lee road. At that time I only stopped on one block or section of city sidewalk when you reach the front door. A- As you're walking out into the yard could you still hear the screaming. No it was. It stopped by then from the time. The screaming stopped up to the time you reach the sidewalk on the road. In your opinion approximately how much time passed from thirty seconds to two minutes. Maybe maybe when you reach the sidewalk. What did you observe? I didn't see or hear anything out of the ordinary. was there any traffic traffic on the road at this time. I don't think so So that I understand you correctly. You didn't see any traffic either. North or southbound down on the road or anything east or westbound on South Woodland and look South on the road and didn't notice traffic and I don't remember looking king at South Woodland. Not that I recall there was nobody walking on the sidewalks. No nobody would your father with you at this. It's time and if not where was he. My father was at the door this time when you were on the sidewalk. Where are you wearing the clothes you described yes? How long did you remain on the sidewalk? And and what did you do next. I stayed for about ten seconds then. I walked back to the House told my father that I didn't see anything. He and I went up to his room where I don't know I think that's where I suggest a calling the police. Oh so after you heard the scream. Delete your room and go directly. Downstairs announced side. Yeah after I looked out the window and answer my father did you. You see your father in the hallway on your way down. Yeah I did. Did you have any conversation with them at that point. Yeah he said Oh good. You're addressed when you go check and see what's happening after you went back in your father's room you state that you suggested that the please be called did either you or your a father. Contact the police at this time. No although my dad had his hand on his phone as if he was going to contact them but then we decided decided that there was nothing we could do. It had been almost three or four minutes since the screaming. Was your mother awake at this time as she woke up during the screams. Did you have any conversation with your mother at this time while you're talking in the room with your father I don't recall what what did you do then went to my room and cleaned it some more. I guess you stated you went outside the second time. Is that correct. Yeah it is. How long was that after he returned to your room? Maybe fifteen minutes. Maybe a bit less did did you advise either your father or or your mother that you're going back outside no to your knowledge or they awake at this time I'm not sure and I didn't check I. I understand you correctly. You went back outside the second time because add the time you realize that Lisa pruitt might be coming over to see you as correct. Yeah at that point. Did you think that the screams that you heard might possibly have been from Lisa Pruitt now. I didn't think that for a couple of minutes but then I thought it might have been her when you went outside the second time. What were your exact route to of travel? And what the actions did you take and also what did you discover if anything. I walked down our sidewalk to the edge of the property continued down towards South Woodland on the city sidewalk and then I saw Lisa's bicycle then I ran home. Call her house Scott. The answering machine didn't leave a message and called nine one one. Why did you call? Lisa's uses house was hoping that maybe wasn't her bicycle and that she'd been home and I felt that if it was her bicycle her parents should know described. The bicycle you saw when you walk down the sidewalk in the Zach location in relation to the sidewalk in your residence the bike doc was approximately thirty feet from my house in the bushes on the right hand side of the sidewalk and it was a purple girls. MIATA when you say thirty thirty feet from your house was at thirty feet south of your property long. Yeah how far in the bushes was this bike located not very far. The bushes are only about four feet thick. Until you get into the yard was not hanging over onto the sidewalk and I don't know how far into the bushes it was it was within reach. Was the frame of the bike. Parallel or perpendicular to. The sidewalk was parallel. Did you ever see this bike before. Oh Yeah it's Lisa's bike. So you knew when you saw the bike ride away that this was Lisa. PRUITT's bike. No I thought it was but I wasn't sure after you found the bike. Did you physically touch it at all. Yeah I grabbed that just so I could get a closer look at it. Then what did you do too. I stuffed it back in the Bush and Random House when you grab the bike to to look at it. Did you pull it out of the bushes. I don't recall if the bike ever left the bushes but it was in. It was in arm's reach so I might have lifted out of the bushes but I I can't say for sure after you examine the bike. Did you just let it drop or was it being supported by the bushes. The bushes were so thin that it was it was being like slightly supported so it did fall a little bit so so at that point. You had an idea that this bike might be. Lisa's after looking at it. Yeah did you call out for Lisa or did a deep do anything. Further checking Do any further checking of the area to see if you might possibly locate her. No was there anyone. You observed walking in the area this time nobody. What are your thoughts at this time? I was scared that something had happened to Lisa. So that's why I ran to the House and tried to call her on the phone when you called. Lisa's number which is what was two two eight three seven. Three seven three. The answering machine was on a that number. Is that correct. Yeah did you listen to the whole message. Judge no once it started hung up to the best of your knowledge. What did the portion of the message you listen to state date? It was something like you've reached her. Sorry we're not home but not I could tell it was her mother's voice immediately after you hung up you call call nine one one. Is that correct. Yeah I did at that point. You made your mother or father aware of your fears. No why not Too busy calling and running around. I wasn't I wasn't thinking straight. It was just like a rush after you called. The police will do random the apron and waited for them to arrive before the police arrived to go back to where where the bike was Did you check the area at all or call out an effort to locate Lisa. No have you ever had sexual intercourse with Lisa pruitt. When was the last time a two months ago when you last? Last saw Lisa pruitt on the evening of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. What was she wearing only remember that she had a pair of our fate jeans? When was the last time you saw these approved just after nine on September thirteenth in my driveway? Five way when she got into her. Dad's car do you remember anything else about her clothing. The last time you saw her such as the top she was wearing in order or her shoes. I remember her hair was down. She always wears a white ring on her finger and a chain around her neck. That has a metal nut on it like this. Are you right or left handed. I'm right handed to your knowledge. Did Lisa Pruitt D- have sexual relations nations with anyone else during the time that you had a relationship with her know at any time since you have known Lisa accruate to strike her physically. Never after you went to the sidewalk to wait for the police. How long was it before they arrived? must've been four minutes during those four minutes. You leave the area where you were standing for any reason. No I just stood in one spot until the car arrived. Would you tell the first officer who arrived at Your House I just. I told him where the bike was and he didn't ask many if any questions he. He wasn't very responsive after you told him where the bike was. What did he do? He looked around the bushes and then walked back to the sidewalk in front of my house and told me to go inside and that someone it becoming into talk to me also. He said it'd be a good idea for me to wake my parents. Could you describe W did next on I ran into the House via the front lawn. went to the back door went up. The stairs woke. My father told him that the screaming had been Leeson. The bike was in the bushes and other police outside. After explaining this to your father. WH- what did you do next. I took them outside through the front door because I believe he wanted talk to the police officer but they weren't site. I think I showed him where the bike was. Then at some point did you who again talk to the police officers at your house. Yeah about a half hour later. Had don't recall anything about the conversation except that I noticed the police offs or smoking. Could you describe any physical contact you had with Liza essentially released from the hospital I I heard her and kissed her when I got to school hugged her and walked into her mom's car at school. She touched my hair after. I had a cut and while at my house I hugged her and kissed her. She was leaving to the best of your recollection. How many times in the past has lisa come over to your house? Laden doc twice maybe once keys describe own this was and and how she got. This would have been four months ago and she got on Interbike to the best of your knowledge did either her parents or your parents know about her visit for months ago. No they don't have you ever known leads to carry anything for self-defence no do you believe that. She had any fear of being out on on the streets late at night. I I wouldn't know. Have you. Had any disagreements or arguments lately lately while we only ever had one disagreement in in that was in mid-july do you have any further knowledge of what happened into Lisa and the early morning hours of September fourteenth nineteen ninety more. Yeah one of the officers told me that someone someone living between South Woodland and Parkland had reported screens. A what time did you become aware of the fact that Lisa was no longer alive well well at four. AM when when. I was informed that I was a suspect for aggravated murder. Just a backup for minute. What time did you first hear the the scream? Approximately about twelve thirty a M. What time did you go back outside? Approximately when you discovered over the bike I saw a clock at eleven thirty two and then again in the early morning hours but all the rest it's just estimates approximately the how much time passed between the time when you return to the House after checking the House the first time and you went out the second time and discover the bike maybe fifteen minutes. I'm not sure but it might have been five or twenty at what point during the evening de Recall. All the you've changed from converse. Tennis shoes to moccasins. I I took the the converse off sometime after ten and switched into the moccasins improperly. Twelve thirty would you normally wear to bed sometimes underwear sometimes under wearing shorts sometimes underwear shorts shorts and a tee shirt and sometimes underwear and t shirt. If you had gone to school today what time would you have gone up. Seventy Dan on a school night would time. Do you normally go to bed. I couldn't really say because I haven't been to school in four months but I have to be in my rim by eleven thirty do you. Do you ever carry any type of weapon. No after the police arrived at your house and you went back into the the house. Were your parents up at that time. No they weren't awake when you woke your father. What did he tell you? What did you tell them? I just told him that the police roadside that the screaming had been Lisa and that are bike was in the bushes and he asked some questions and it came up that Lisa had mentioned she wanted to come over at that point. How how did you know that the screen you had heard had come from Lisa how I was only ninety nine percent sure I deduce that because I thought it was her bike and she wasn't home? Did you tell your father what you thought had happened to Lisa. I don't recall that I ever did. How much time passed in your estimation between the time you woke your father to tell him in the time that myself and other officers came into your bedroom an hour and a half two hours? I'm Jim know of anyone who had or might have had a serious disagreement with Lisa pruitt which might have caused them to Harmar. Uh No would you be willing with your parents consent to submit to a polygraph examination and reference it to the murder of Lisa pruitt. Did you kill Lisa put. No I didn't do you know who killed Lisa Pruitt. I don't who else besides you. Lisa Pruitt knew that she was coming over to your house after twelve thirty. Am on September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety. We talked about it in front of Kenny Workman described. Kenny Workman for me physically in where he lives. Kenny's about five ten slender kind of long blond hair shaved on the sides. Looks Kinda scraggly and lives in an apartment near Shaker Square. I've only seen at once. He's white sixteen years old lizard. His mother sister and his mother's boyfriend I think. Do you know his address or phone number. No He's better friends with my sister. He used to come over a lot when my sister was home but she went off to college and this is the first time I've seen him since then just came over to see me and my parents did. Did he have any conversation with or did he making Guinea comments about Lisa Pruitt. No he didn't. We were just sitting on some patio furniture for about two minutes. Not really saying anything to one another. Oh we did. I'd say something about. We wanted to shave. Lisa's hair. She she likes her long hair so I was teasing her. Then I walked into the car. How do you know that can workman and was aware Lisa was coming over low? Lisa mentioned it in confronted Ken to Your Knowledge Prior to yesterday did Ken Workman No Lisa Wpro or any type of or have any type of relationship with her he just knew her through me and you would have seen her at school. Do you can work men and did Lisa All attention heights highs. Yeah we do Dan I how tall are you. And and and how much do you weigh. I'm five eight minute boat. One hundred thirty pounds. Is there anything else that you wish to add to the statement no in many conventional deodorants contain aluminum which forms a plug in your sweat. Glands wants to keep you from sweating but natives deodorant is made without aluminum so you can feel better about what you're putting on your body. Why smelling and feeling fresh all all day? Long Native Deodorant is formulated without aluminum. Parabens or talk and made with ingredients. 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C. R. U.. I T. E. R. dot com slash garage checkout ziprecruiter today the next interview. The Shaker Heights. Detectives conducted was with Dan. DREIFORT Father Robert. The interview began at ten fourteen. AM The morning after after the murder. You will hear break in the narrative about a minute in since page. Two of this interview has been lost to time. Daniel had been in treatment at the inpatient unit at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation since August Tenth Nineteen Ninety. He was discharged to my care at approximately two PM September thirteenth. Nineteen Ninety at that time time I took him and his possessions to our home arriving there at approximately two thirty PM after. Dan took his belongings to his room. He left visit Shaker. Sugar Heights high school at approximately three PM. At that time I stayed home had lunch and rested. He was expected home sometime between four PM. I'm and five. PM The purpose of his visit to the high school was to get a schedule walk through his classes meet teachers perhaps get his locker at approximately smitten five pm my wife arrived home for more and shortly thereafter. Dan came home. He told us that he'd been able to get his schedule but that he had met at least least one of his teachers and talk with them and also he had a chance to meet several of his friends at the high school. We had dinner Dan my wife and I at approximately six PM after dinner. Dan helped me load some logs in the back of my van logs which were the result of a tree that was knocked down in last Thursday. Stay storm my wife and I left the house at approximately seven pm to deliver the logs to a friend of mine in Cleveland Heights and to stop at several stores store to pick up some things we needed the places we stopped at were. My friend's House Song Cummings Road in Cleveland Heights followed by peacock hardware rat severance center were purchased an electrical socket followed by heights pet world. That may feel Din Warrenville where I purchase fifty pounds of dog food and a bird feed cup for which I used my credit card. And you not bad Bernie Shelman at Cedar Center or we spend forty one dollars seven cents on selected items paid for by check we'll let Bernie Shulman's and proceeded home arriving there at approximately nine mpm when we pulled into our driveway. We are greeted at the backyard gate by Dan and a friend of his by the name of Ken. I believe his name is workman. Dan indicated that Ken had heard that Dan was home in wanted to visit. Since this was a long distance called Church to my phone the starting in time of the call would be accurately recorded by the phone company which is. At and T.. During that conversation my wife I spoke with Deborah with my wife speaking on the phone in the adjacent Dan and me on the bedroom phone during the entire conversation I was sitting on the bed and Dan was at the foot of the bed. Listening listening to the conversation at some point asked Debra if she would like to speak to Dan to which she responded affirmatively at that time. Dan moved to the Dan adjacent to my bedroom and my wife and I remained in the bedroom. Dan then spoke to my daughter alone until the end of that conversation and which was approximately twelve. Fifteen am at that time. Daniel went to his room and I began to read a book in my bed. My my wife was at first reading later turned over and went to sleep at approximately twelve thirty. Am I heard a shrill in lengthy scream coming from the area in front of our house. The head of my bed is against the Lee road side of the House. And there's a window adjacent. The window was closed although the storm window was up. Although we're used to unusual sounds and activities emanating from Lee Road at all times of the day and night. This scream was particularly distressing and alarming. I immediately called out to Daniel. who was in his bedroom? This was relatively easy due to the fact that we had a connecting bathroom between our two room and the door. My side of the bathroom was open. I said something to the fact of Dan. Did you hear that to achieve responded. Yes I then heard him move to his window facing Lee road and hurt the window. Being opened by myself immediately turned off the table lamp on my bedside table and lifted the panel on the Venetian Asian blind and looked out till he rode. I said nothing unusual as I looked out. I can't recall whether there was any vehicular the traffic at the time but things did seem quite quiet while I was looking out the window. Dan came into my bedroom. My first inclination was to run outside and see what happened. Realizing I was stark naked. I quickly looked at Dan to determine if he was more fully. Close the NI- seeing that he had on essentially the same clothes on that he had been wearing the last time I saw him. I particularly noted it and even questioned him about whether he had anything on his feet. Why then noticed? He was wearing a pair of brown mock since this was important to me because because I knew he could get out quicker than me. Dan Ran downstairs to the front door while I quickly put on a pair of blue jogging pants and a t shirt and a pair of sandals a slip on sandals. I quickly Rian downstairs after Dan. By the time I was on the first floor of the house. Dan had opened the front door in storm door which we kept locked and bolted and was proceeding down the steps and across the lawn toward Lee road. I may sell only went as far as our front steps at that time. Ask Dan if he saw anything. He was looking in all directions but primarily towards south woodland. and which is in fact the direction that I thought the sounds were coming from. Dan told me saw nothing unusual. I don't know his exact words but they indicated that there was no unusual activity at the time. Nothing looked out of place to me either again. The general traffic patterns seem quite as well at that time. Danae return to the house. Neither one of us left the bounds of our property. We locked the doors and return to the upstairs bedroom a dream my wife remained in bed. We told her what we'd seen or not seen. There was a brief discussion about perhaps calling the police release. I don't remember what my wife and sunset but remember saying or thinking that we'd seen nothing unusual and then it probably wasn't necessary what was going through my mind at that time was that the screams may been coming from a passing car and that the person person in distress had probably left the area then went back to bed and began to read my book my wife Turnover and went back to sleep. I I fell asleep after reading less than a page of the buck and was woken by my son that time. He was telling me something about Lisa in a bicycle in the police. It wasn't understanding while because I was just coming out of a fairly sound sleep but I quickly grasped that something further was going on related to the scream I had heard earlier. I still had on the clothes I put on to go and investigate the scream. So immediately went downstairs with Dan to. Let's see what was happening. Dan and I walked out to the front of the property down the driveway. At which point I noticed two police cars parked next to the curb. There was no policemen incite. Dan was telling me something about finding Lisa's bicycle and calling the police. I couldn't understand why Lisa's bicycle would be near our house. I gradually found out by questioning. Dan that Leeson he had communicated some time that evening. Doc and that Lisa had indicated to him that she wanted desperately to see him because she had not seen him much during the past month that he'd been in the hospital hospital. They had apparently discussed the possibility that Lisa would come to our house that evening. I asked Dan. How would he know that Lisa was coming? I mean and he mentioned something about her planning to throw a pebble at his window. Dan was at that point. Obviously upset distressed by what he'd seen. He told me that he had found. Lisa's bicycle in the bushes of the house just to the south of ours that information coupled with the screen remind heard earlier increased my own anxiety greatly. I begin to worry more about what might have happened at twelve thirty am I am. I don't know the exact time that all of this occurred but it will be sometime after the policeman had arrived and spoken talking with my son at that point. Dan and I returned to her house. Dan Sat and watched television on the the first floor while my wife and I tried to reconstruct what had happened and to see if there was anything we could do to help the officers. There's at the scene. Were quite preoccupied with their work therefore there was not much that we could do so he tried to keep out of their way at one in point my wife and I saw what appeared to be civilians on our tree lawn in embrace we immediately went out to see if there was anything we could do to help and immediately encountered the parents of Lisa paranoid at that time. We asked them if they knew what was happening. Mr Pruitt said it looked as if there was a dead girl in the bushes. He attended to move in the direction of the bushes in question and was restrained by an officer. My wife and I offered to have the Peretz come into our home until the police needed them. They refused our our offer and having nothing else to do we went back into our house. We came out one more time and spoke to a uniformed officer asking if we could help or if he knew what had happened at that point he said they were dealing with foul play and we began to suspect the worst. We went back into the house and stayed there until the plain clothes police rang our bell. At which point. We escorted escorted them to our dining room table and provided a statement which included some of the above. By this time Daniel had gone to his bedroom turned out the light and was asleep sometime. Prior to the arrival of the plainclothesman our neighbor across the street Mrs Hall Telephone Spoke Primarily Talk to my wife in an attempt to find out if we knew what had happened in the course of that conversation Mrs Hall. Use The word murder. During part of that conversation I listened in on our extension. My wife mentioned something to Mrs Hall about Dan's girlfriend and her bicycle but stated that we knew nothing about a murder. This was in fact before the officer had used the term foul play to us. Mrs Hall was obviously prying for Information and my wife tried to cut her off without discussing the matter. Further until more facts were known. Mrs Hall is something of a gossip and we didn't want to feed information to her. This is detective. Richard Mullany with Shaker Heights. Police Department interviewing one Robert C.. Dreifort dreifort what do you give me your son's full name please. Daniel Robert Dreifort is your son student. And if so where yes shaker heights. High School to your knowledge. How long has your son known Lisa? pruitt they'd been classmates classmates for at least a year as far as I know they've also been members of the marching band for as long as two years and I'm not sure if they knew each other in junior high school. I'm only recently aware of her becoming a special friend among the many friends that Dan has and I have I've heard him referred to her as his girlfriend a few times over the past six months. She's been a guest in her home on a couple of -CATIONS and I'm sure they've met socially through mutual friends and acquaintances and share interests. Could you tell me who Ken Workman is where he lives and his phone number. If you you haven't. Ken Workman is a friend of my daughter. And my son he lives in an apartment on North Moreland. Me have his address and phone phone number at home. But I don't know what offhand was there any friction between yourself and your son over his relationship with Lisa pruitt absolutely not in fact my wife and I had gone out of our way to invite Lisa to spend the entire afternoon with us when Dan and was visiting home last Sunday. September Ninth Nineteen Ninety. Unfortunately I never got to know Lisa. Very well only having met at her a couple of occasions but she seemed like a nice girl and one that I approved a Dan spending his time with. Were you aware that Lisa Pruitt was to visit your son between twelve thirty. Am and one am on the morning of September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety. No now the first time I had an inkling of that was when Dan Awoke me and announced that he had found the bicycle and the police were outside. Were you aware at any time. Prior to the above incident that Lisa Pruitt may have visited your son under similar circumstances. No I had no inkling that may have happened when you and your wife were in your bedroom just prior to hearing the scream you stated that your bedroom and your son's bedroom have a bathroom in between and at the door leading from the bathroom to your bedroom was open. Was the door or leading from the bathroom to your son's bedroom open. No so that I understand you correctly from where you're lying in your bed. You could not visually see your son in his room. Is that correct. I could not see him when you first heard the scream outside and you and your son went to investigate. Did your son come into your room prior to going downstairs and outside yes when. Dan went outside to investigate the first time. Did you fall on him outside. Yes how far did you go outside inside the house. The first time I went to the front steps could you repeat for me how your son was dressed at that time as near as I can recall he he had on a pair of shorts. A T shirt and some brown moccasins was that a white t shirt. I think it was white with some writing on it. My recollection is that it was the one we later found on the bookcase next to the close shoot. Shown you white t shirt brand. Name fruit of loom size large forty two to forty four with riding on the front and Purple and black ink containing the words Spring Conference Rents Nineteen eighty-eight Toledo Mummy Valley and also containing the words the search for self and the letters. Why are are you you? Is this the shirt that dam was wearing. That could very well have been head if not. It is one very similar to it at at the time I was more interested in getting dressed myself. Ain't getting downstairs the clothing that I was most focused on with. Dan was shoes. Because because as I said I was concerned that one of us have shoes on so one of us could get outside quickly. Dan has mainly t shirts. And if I were we're to have to swear to it could not swear that was the one but it was one like it from the time you came home from from the store at approximately nine. PM On the evening of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. And so you saw your son wearing the Brown moccasins. Did you observe him wearing any other shoes on that evening. I have to say that I wasn't aware of what he was wearing on his feet until I asked him if he had something on his feet and we were preparing to go downstairs prior to that I hadn't noticed what he was wearing. You have to remember. That was separate from him. Most of that period he was downstairs and I was upstairs to your knowledge. Does your son. Dan owned a pair of converse. High top tennis shoes which are multicolored or tie-dyed. He has shoes like Yeah you stated that when you and. Dan went downstairs and outside the first time to investigate. The scream was a front door locked because I was concentrating on getting dressed as fast as I could and rushing down the stairs and Dan was already dressed and going down ahead of me. I only know that Dan got out ahead of me. They don't have a specific memory. We have weather. I saw Dan unlocking the door in any case and it does not take long to open our door when you first heard the scream in your born outside outside. Did you have any thoughts as to what might have happened. When I heard the scream number one I immediately associated associated with female voice in my mind number two it was intense and somewhat prolonged? It may pass through my mind that that's another one of those rowdy kids or people in cars that we sometimes encounter Ali Road but there was enough urgency in the scream that it did make me want to run down and see what happened thinking what might have happened. It always occurs when you hear something like that is that somebody might beep deep being attacked. But then we've heard noises like that on Lee road where people clowning around or playing pranks a game. That was enough urgency in this screen for me to WanNa see what was happening side from that. I guess a lot of things raced through your mind at a time like that. Why a you were going outside? Did you anytime call your son to tell him not to go out before you went out or did you. We feel any apprehension about him going out there alone. I don't remember seeing those specific words or words to that effect and any apprehension inch I may have had was lessened by the fact that I myself was hot on his heels therefore I think I would not have had any apprehension anymore more than for myself and it probably would have felt better with both of us out there then either one of us alone when you heard the scream did did. It seemed to come from one location or to the sound of the scream seemed to move at all. All I can recall is that it seemed to come generally generally from the front of the House and perhaps towards the south end of property but can't be absolutely certain because it did happen happen kind of fast. I can remember looking out the window trying to pinpoint the location expecting to see cars or people and what. I didn't see that my next reaction was to quickly get down and find out what was happening. I can't say if it was moving or not in your opinion did the scream. Seem to come from a male or female and if you can approximate age as young or old. I've already said said that it sounded like a female and I'm not sure how to equate pitch with age so I can't answer the second part of that question. All I can say say is that it was rather high pitched which probably makes me think female. Could you tell me if the scream was a continuous screen. Ed or were there breaks in the screaming it was fairly continuous. There may have been one more brief. Very instantaneous breaks aches but the overall impact of it was prolonged more continuous. From the time you went back in the house after talking to the PRUITT's until myself sergeant read rang your doorbell. How much time pass approximately I find that very difficult to answer? Because is at the time I was not looking at any clocks and my wife and I were trying to determine what we should be doing to help and responding to that neighbors offers telephone call and this I may have forgotten to mention. We made one or two calls to the Cleveland Clinic nurse who had dealt with Dan in the hospital hospital so in the midst of all that I was not aware of the passage of time. I'm a windows are in your bedroom to the face. Ace Lee road and for others to face Lee Road to face south woodland and two others face the back of the house when you heard the screams which window to look out the one that faces Lee road which is the north of the two that face Lee road food which is on my side of the bed. Did you look out any other windows when you heard the scream. No we have initial blinds. First thing I did was turn off the light then. Dan was right there. Is there anything else that you wish to add the statement. I can't think think of anything right now. The following day this is Saturday September Fifteenth Nineteen Ninety. The police interviewed Dan drivers mother. Jeanne at ten thirty am I was at work until almost five o'clock PM. So when I got home at around five o'clock pm. Dan was not home. His father said he had gone up to the school so I didn't see him until he arrived home. I'd say about five thirty. PM We ate dinner around six PM then. My husband and I went out shopping at I think it was close to seven. PM When we came back at about nine pm maybe before nine pm Dan. Dan was there with Ken. It was shortly before nine pm. We were in the process of unloading the car Dan. Ken Helping US carry the bags in when Lisa walked in in the open door which we had propped open it was about nine. pm I spoke to her and asked her father wanted to come in and she said he was listening to something on the radio. Oh and would be happy to stay out in the driveway that she could only stay for five minutes. Dan took her out to the back patio. I went and closed the car down. Shut the doors did a few things and realize that more than five minutes have gone by so I shouted out the back door and told them that her father was waiting. I saw them go towards the driveway a few minutes minutes later. I looked out the driveway door and heard that they were still there and again said something to them because I did not like it that her father was sitting there all that time after that the phone rang rang many times our Daniel. I answered most of the calls and call Dan. Oh so the phone. He was sitting out on the patio with. Ken Workman before we left to go shopping. Daniel I know asked if it was alright. If he cut his hair he wanted to spread some papers out in front of the Hull Mirror and we said sure and he also found the clippers that we have and was using those as best he could when we came back home. He showed us how Kim Rathbone our neighbor to the rear had showed him how to do a better job on his haircut. He had obtained prior permission so that she could come over while we were out of the house. One of the phone calls I took for Dan. I recognize Lisa's voice but neither one of us acknowledged till we were somewhere in there. My my husband went to bed and Daniel and I talked for a long while about the hospital experience and who he had seen up at the high school that afternoon. I also washed dishes while I was is washing dishes. Daniels said he wanted to watch the news at eleven. PM which he did. Bob Call Down at that time and asked what we were doing and I said I'm washing dishes and Dana's watching the news at about eleven fifteen pm I went upstairs and at about eleven thirty one. pm I called down and said Dan the news over and he apparently shut the TV off and had come upstairs after that he came into our bedroom several times. Once I remember he went into our bathroom. I just don't remember what he said or asked the other two times but I would say it was at least three times that he popped in there at about midnight. The phone rang and we don't believe in answering the phone that late but we heard on the answer machine that it was our daughter. Bob Bob State on the bedroom phone and I went into the joining office and talked on that phone. We spoke for about ten or fifteen minutes and Dan came into the office and took the extension in the office and I went back back in the bedroom and close the door and he spoke for an additional five minutes. I went to bed. I can't remember if I read but I usually do turned off the light and started to go to sleep. I heard my husband shout something like what was that and I could hear in my mind. The Echo of a long scream. I put it that way because I was mostly asleep but I heard heard a long scream through all the rest of his. I remained in the bed with my eyes closed. Bob Sprang up turned off his light making the room dark so you can look out better as as he looked out or just after that. Dan came into the room remarking that the room was dark or black. I heard Bob say your address. Go down and see if you can see something for something like that and I heard him putting clothes on just about the time he left the room. He was right behind Dan. I think I heard vehicle pull away from about in front of our house. It was is like two sounds like changing gears with pause. I was very aware of it because we had just heard the scream. It's the kind of thing I listen for. When I hear something out of the ordinary I heard no other traffic the next thing I remember? Is Bob coming back in the room and I think he asked me if I should call the police and I said something like we're always calling them let someone else call them. Oh I said there are long gone what to use. What's the point? I fell asleep again. The next thing I know is Dan is waking us up and had a real hard time waking up so that I only heard little pieces like the police are here. Lisa's bicycle and I'm lying in bed with my eyes closed. Didn't WANNA wake up. Bob went downstairs somewhere in there. I realized that all this wasn't going to go away so I got up and threw on some clothes and went downstairs. The rest is really muddled from this point on. I just remember snatches like snapshots. Sometimes we were downstairs. Sometimes we were upstairs at one point when we were upstairs. I saw a couple embraced on the sidewalk. And I said Bob that must be Lisa's parents. Let's Dan at that. Point had already gone to his room and closed the door so had spoken to him before that. I don't remember what so we went down and talk to her parents. At that point we were under the impression that she had been abducted and we offered that they should come in or is there anything that we can do. and Mr Pruitt got excited at some policeman and I thought we should go back in. I got the feeling they might not be aware that we were there another time. I remember seeing the neighbor across the street in her nightgown and looked out the window. Occasionally and I remember I kept thinking. Why are they still here? We have wooden slat blinds. So there's no way to look out without physically getting up and lifting the slats. I didn't think this is where are they should be that they should be out looking for her at another point in time. I remember saying to Bob. They've got flashlights. Are Looking around another point. We again went downstairs stairs outside to again. Ask if there was anything we could do. We felt prior to that. We want to leave the police alone to let them do what they had to do. They told US someone. Someone would be an in in a few minutes to take statements so we went back inside and eventually someone did come shortly after. I saw Mrs Hall in her nightgown in front of her house. She he called on the telephone. I'm not surprised she asked what was happening. who had been killed and I said to our what do you mean kill? Did the police tell you that. And she said something like no but there is is a body or they found a body or something like that. I know she's the neighborhood gossip and I'm very careful with my. She might lead to conclusions. I told her we didn't know anything saying we didn't know about any body. Another thing she said was that the police wouldn't tell her if the person was black or white male or female. I told her that a girlfriend was going to visit Dan in response to that statement and I told her to please not say anything to anybody. I told her that much because she had gone great length about hearing someone breaking branches and her dog dog barking and seemed quite upset. She had heard the screams. Also another reason I was hesitant about calling. The police was a couple of times. Bob had gone to help people who seem to be in distress and it was a joke and they laugh at him and took off our swore at him so I always tried to prevent him for putting himself out like that when you arrived home home after shopping as you stated shortly before nine pm do recall what your son. Dan was wearing at that time. One of his t shirts and a pair of shorts shorts. All his shorts are colorful and all t shirts are white with something on the front of them. So that's it. Would you say this short sword light or dark in color. I don't don't remember. Do you recall what type of shoes he was wearing somewhere between the time of five thirty. PM and the time I went to bed he and I had a conversation about the shoes. He was wearing tennis shoes. I can't put it down any closer than that except I know. They weren't the holy ones at that point after we got home from shopping. I don't know if I noticed issues. Could you describe describe Kim rathbone where she lives in our relationship with Dan in your family. The rathbone property adjoins ours at the career. Line for about fifty feet. She is a classmate of Dan's at the high school is also in the band. They have many fence talks last year. She was his wakeup service in that she called called every morning at seven. AM so they would have to come to the phone and would help. Wake him up. She is going with one of his longtime very good friend. Who is Bryan? Keating to your knowledge does or did Kim rathbone have any type of romantic relationship with your son definitely. Not they're just friends in the body of your statement. You state that some time after nine pm after Lisa Pruitt and our father had left that female whose voice you recognize As Liza Pruitt called on the telephone for Dan. Do you know at approximately what time that was. It's hard to tell he got back to back phone calls else. It's my impression because I remember thinking she was just here that it was about nine thirty or nine forty five PM. But I'm not sure after Dean talk to Lisa during during this phone call. Did he relate to you any content of the conversation now. I don't think I was even in the room. I don't usually ask. It can on his phone calls. Are you aware of any one else who had dated or a romantic type relationship with Lisa. Pruitt no do you recall what time that. Ken Workman left your home on the evening of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. He was gone by ten five. PM for sure. Because I looked out on the patio I told Dan he had to be gone by ten PM. Did you see can workman anytime. I am later than that that evening. Now on the night of September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. Did you see Chris Jones or any other or any other of your son's friends your residents. I don't think so I don't remember. Remember the scream that you stated you heard when you're lying in bed. Could you tell me approximately what time that was at some point while I was lying there from the time the scream to the time Bob got back to the room I looked at the clock and it said twelve thirty two. Am after you heard the scream. Did your son Dan. Dan Come into your room at anytime. Yes could you approximate the time between. You're hearing the scream and when you saw your son I heard come into the room and speak within a minute. Forty five seconds to a minute after the scream. Could you describe as best as you can if this scream you heard was from a male or female. Young or old impression was that it was a female. Not Child not elderly. Would you say that the scream team was from someone in distress. Yes was the screaming you heard a continuous one or was it. A series of shorter screams. Continuous could you estimate the time from when you heard the scream until you heard what what you stated was a was a vehicle pulling off from the area in front of Your House Dan and Bob. We're going down the stairs so it had to be roughly around one minute after. You're from the sound of the vehicle. Could you determine the direction and was traveling. Definitely south towards southland. You stated that you heard two separate dippers sounds as if this vehicle was changing gears. Is that correct. Yes I did state that it was like room room. It was a heavy sound. I remember thinking what what the hell was that. I hear a lot of traffic so I know a bus a motorcycle a sedan and it was definitely not one of those unless the Muffler was modified in some way because it have been a truck back yes after you have woken and you are aware that the please were on the scene and that something had obviously occurred word would conversation you have with your son. Concerning this incident. We spoke very little. I could tell he was upset. I asked him some questions which he answered. Pretty much and monosyllables. I cannot specifically remember what I asked him at the time as opposed to some later time just enough to understand that without our knowing it that he had arranged Lisa for her to come. Come over I remember now that he said she had said she would probably come over. I'm would throw gravel or something at his window. Does Dan Mention to you that he had found the bike. The bushes that it was. Lisa prudes bike. I'm not sure I'd already heard some of that. And how I found out those details I don't know when as I woke lowcock. There was Lisa Pruitt and bike and so when I heard it I don't really remember. Do you recall dance on you. That he believed Lisa PRUITT had been conducted. He never said that. That was in my mind zero anything else that you wish to add to the statement now. It is now thirty six hours. After the murder of Lisa. PRUITT police have completed their interviews with the DREIFORT family. How much of their story? Roy Do the detectives believe at this time. It's hard to say. Opinion has no real place and a serious investigation. You're supposed to follow the evidence. You listen to the witnesses you attempt to see if their statements match up with the facts you know as of Saturday afternoon though. Their pool of suspects is quite small. Isn't it but everything is about all to change at four fifty pm on Saturday afternoon. A good friend of DANDRUFF efforts goes to the police station with the story that it will alter the course of this investigation forever. He believes he knows who killed. Lisa pruitt I know Dan from band. I've known him since about eighth grade. We've been friends since then until now. I've known Lisa's since I was in tenth grade. And I've known Kevin since I was in ninth grade Dan Lisa than going out for a couple of months now Kevin supposedly as like Lisa for a long time. Now most girls blow Kevin off because he seems kind of weird we were at a rabbit. Shaker Square means Shane McGee. We're standing by Shane's car talking with Kevin and we were talking about Dan Dreifort and Kevin Young said something like. I'd hate to be Dan because he doesn't get any play and me and Shane McGee. Both laughed Kevin was like why are you guys laughing and we were both like because Dan. Dan gets a lot of play from girls and Kevin Young said well. He's not getting any from Lisa Pruitt and I said yes he is he sleeping with her. Kevin just freaked. He was like that asshole that asshole I hate him. I'm going to kill him uh-huh the.

Lisa Dan Lisa pruitt South Woodland murder Nineteen Ninety Daniel Robert Dreifort Shaker Heights officer Ken Workman Police Department Lisa Li Pruitt converse Dan Dreifort Cleveland Clinic Leeson Kenny Workman Lee ro
Everything I Never Told You

One Great Book

08:54 min | 10 months ago

Everything I Never Told You

"I'm an Bogle and you're listening to one great book the short-form podcast from the team behind what should I believe next where each week one standout selection on my personal bookshelves one great book volume three five everything I never told you Abedin's what you get is one grades more become a supporter and start getting those great reader Lee Perks Lydia is dead but they don't know this yet that's not a spoiler did with Celeste in for a community event here in town we would love to see you in our Patriot community goto Patriot dot com slash. What should I read next to learn childhood in the Cleveland? Suburb of Shaker Heights her interracial marriage that Betty Crocker cookbook her mom had a copy when she was a kid it was much used with food spatters. I'm the bestselling novel everything I never told you Celeste ings stunning debut innings writing process begins with images and for this novel she pictured a young girl in not a lot more at this point but enough ink thought of this point of view as God with a megaphone directing the characters and she uses it to reveal what's happening and her carrots certain conditions and as a writer in does the same but with people for both the key question is what if for everything I never told you ings doc between science and writing than you might expect the way she approaches her novels is similar to the way a scientist takes on an experiment a scientist investigates how elements behave under deepwater in wanted to know who she was and how she got there to build on this image ing thought of what she knew her own experiences that might inform the story the opening line of everything I never told you lydia. The firstborn and favorite daughter to James in Maryland Lee is nowhere to be found in drops the reader straight and there's hearts and minds and to allow readers to grasp the truth even if the family never does when this unexpected loss is discovered the already fragile family begin and plenty more like them in the nineteen seventies Betty Crocker cookbook relied on by housewives across America that cookbook was a crucial ingredient in the cognitive brew that was to be airman looks like this what happens if you start with a strong setting shaker heights add richly drawn characters loosely based on things own family what if a big crease in the spine for being opened repeatedly to the cookie section when selecting thumbed through that old cookbook she began wondering what it was like to be a woman back then and not just where I shared the most anticipated books coming out this fall thirty five of them plus there's an entire community of readers in fun books conversations rather like the SAS if you care about pleasing man bake a pie but make sure it's a perfect pie you'll find these words and that's why these bonus episodes dedicated exclusively to books that haven't been released yet so you can get a jump on the list but that's just one of the fun perks of being so the middle of the story the middle of the family she goes on nineteen seventy seven may third six thirty in the morning no one knows anything but this innocuous sorts Brennan shared about how we title are episodes are September Patron Reading Club where we asked everyone to share all the books they read in September and bonus audio like the interview any woman but one with ambitions that didn't involve baking a perfect pie is the low novelist a family of scientists but she says there's more added in one thousand nine hundred ninety s ideas on interracial marriage sexist messages from a Betty Crocker cookbook a family that keeps secrets teenager drowned in a lake. I'll tell you what readers I hope you know about the one great book bonus episodes available on Patriae on what am I favor it library hacks is requesting new titles before their Release Date Act Lydia is late breakfast Oh but reader thanks to inks brilliant use of the omniscient narrator you know more than the family does is to disintegrates as do its individual members from her god-like perspective ing swivels the camera around at were so we can see how each member of the family owner on patriotic we also share exclusive peeks behind the scenes bonus content my one our podcast what should I read next and special online events like the fall book preview reacts differently to the same events in Texas back in time the show was how the family got to this moment in time the campus love story of Lydia's parents James Maryland live each family member sees things differently with one glaring exception as they struggle to understand why the tragedy happened they realize they never and their struggles their nineteen fifty eight interracial marriage at a time when some states still held such a union to be illegal Maryland's desperate wish to make a career for herself a family whose members don't know how to talk to each other despite their best intentions they've struggled and failed to connect they keep secrets of course but more subtly the rainy Lydia at all as we see them grapple with loss and grief it's clear that this is readers visit modern Mrs Darcy Dot com slash one great book to learn more about everything are the things that later hunt them and in these pages we see how much we have to tell each other and how deeply we feel the loss when we stay silent I say we thinking about the things in their own lives. They've been afraid to articulate to people they love or even to themselves these characters may be fictional but these are the concerns bite flimsy support from her family and society and everyone's constant struggles to fit in as individuals and as a family unit in the predominantly white suburbs where they housing it's currently in development is feature film with Julia Roberts attached to play Maryland will readers later say the book was better well probably but that doesn't gene we're not excited to see our favorite novels at the Hollywood treatment in short if you're looking for a powerful carefully crafted literary thriller that is so absorbing I once real life which is why this story continues to resonate with readers from all walks of life and the book does indeed seem to be resonating to the tune of one point five million copies sold until you all about it in ten minutes or less they're very selves hidden away they're afraid they're ashamed they're unsure of how they'll be perceived and so the important things go and said those things that go instead Mr woman on my Manhattan Crosstown bus

Betty Crocker Lydia Celeste ings scientist Maryland James Maryland Lee Perks Shaker Heights Cleveland Bogle Julia Roberts Abedin Mrs Darcy Dot Patriae Patron Reading Club Hollywood America Texas writer Brennan
The "Live From Miami" Edition

Slate's Double X Gabfest

1:14:08 hr | 1 year ago

The "Live From Miami" Edition

"He waves listeners before we get started. We wanted to tell you about something special where including at the end of today's episode a little bonus content from one of our partners Doctors Without Borders with support from donors around the world doctors borders provides lifesaving medical care to people and areas of emergency and conflict in more than seventy countries when you give Doctors Without Borders. Your donations go toward helping their people on the ground provide the medical care their patients so desperately need like Maggie widow a nurse practitioner and field coordinator who's story you'll hear right after this episode today, you'll hear about her time in Thailand, providing medical care and fighting for refugee status for displaced populations fleeing war-torn Laos stick around after the show to here Maggie story. And if you can please consider donating at doctorswithoutborders dot org slash donate. Before we get into today's episode, which we recorded live in Miami. We have one order of waves business, we are hosting another. Is it sexist Colin show before the end of the year? So if you haven't is it sexist question, you would like us to answer. Please leave us a message at six four six nine seven nine eight five nine again. The number is six four six nine seven nine eight five nine all right onto the show following podcast contains explicit language. Hello. And welcome to the waves for Thursday, November twenty second. I'm Christina caught a rucci a staff writer at slate and host of the slate podcast outward here with me in beautiful Miami. Florida recording live at the Miami. Book. Fair is HANA Rosen high host of NPR's visit Delia. And we also have New York magazine's Noreen Malone. Hi noreen. Hi. How are you? It was Naureen's first time in Miami. I love it. I wanna stay for a lot longer than I'm supposed to. So do I I actually feel like these chairs are what I would think of as like Miami furniture and my dream Miami. Like or something like that? So today, we're going to start off talking about Cheryl Sandberg, not sure if you've heard of her the Facebook CEO and lean in author who's dubious political dealings where the subject of a major New York Times investigation that came out this week, then we're going to chat with Celeste Inc. I'm so excited. We're gonna talk about her wonderful novel. Little fires everywhere among other things. And finally, we're going to welcome Rebecca trae stir to the mic to talk about her new book. Good and mad, which is an exploration of the righteous power of women's anger. But we're especially excited for our sleep. Plus segment today where we are going to be taking is it sexist questions from the audience. So you will have the entire episode to think about things that you think may or may not be sexist. You'll come up to the mic right in the middle. And we will make a scientific judgment on whether they are or are not sexist, so. To be mulling that over as you're listening. If something sexist happens to you during this show, please bring into the Mike. All right, shall we get into it? Let's do it. What if they ask if one of us is sexist? We'll cross that bridge when we come to it never happened at a live show, but it's wearing Miami. And what happens in Miami stays in Miami. I think you want people to ask if you're sexist. I think you're kind of tempting it you can also ask that if you'd like HANA, so Cheryl Sandburg, she became household name in two thousand thirteen with her empowerment feminism manifesto, lean in this week. I'm not sure if y'all read this big New York Times expose on how Facebook has dealt with Russian interference in US elections other political challenges and Sanford came out looking like something of a villainous mastermind of this profoundly unethical corporate operation, she used a conservative op research firm to smear Facebook critics as George Soros funded protesters, then turn around and said that those protesters were anti-semitic she tried to minimize the extent to which. Russian operatives had used Facebook to get this information in front of users. And she worried that Republicans would be angrier at Facebook. If they revealed the many pages that Russia had put up these pro-trump Facebook pages. So I wanna know what you guys think about these revelations. But I would especially like to think about how we think of them in relation to lean in and how she's positioned herself as this sort of crusader for women's equality in tech. And the idea that businesses will be better if women occupy half of the you know. You know? So as you were giving your introduction the thing that caught me was your use of a word villainous because as I was reading the accessed maybe, but yes, I'll ask that question when we get to that segment if Christina was sexist, but the in her introduction. But the thing that struck me as I was reading this entire long New York Times expose which you should read was MIS apprised. And if I'm surprised why like she runs, you know, one of the biggest companies in America, what she did was utterly standard capitalist like utterly standard capitalists. Take down your competitors. In pretty insidious ways. You know, put put profits before decency and civic duty try to hide or we're actually delay. I shouldn't say hi that's unfair. Try to delay. Try to delay. The exposing of things that we're going to get her company and trouble is this villainous. Or is this just something that a capital like someone who's cap capitalist does every day? And so so so so then so then the natural next question is, you know, our feminism of a certain kind and capitalism of certain kind compatible or not, well, this has always been baked into her philosophy. Right. Like Leinen was never about structural changes for women. It was about basically, how can you operate as Mendy in the workplace? That was really what it was. Right. And it was you know, she gave all of these interviews where she said, well, we could focus on the people who are holding us back. But that would what good would that do? It's more. Positive to focus on what we can do to change it but positive like all we focused on was the positive stuff. It's like take a seat at the table. Like, it was just like it was so that surround Cheryl Sandberg for so many years was like you go girl from most people non entirely from the very beginning there where people sort of criticizing the capitalist feminist mashups saying that actually like what we want from our feminists heroes telling us how to more effectively spend more of our lives at work, right? And from from the very beginning. This was baked into the philosophy. I'm not I'm not surprised at all a because this is actually like not not so different from what she was saying in Leinen and be because even before Leinen came out she had hired fancy PR firm to smear Google. She had actually like really ruffled a lot of feathers when she left Google the come to Facebook. She hired away executives in this way, that was just totally against the normal practices. She was ruthless from the very beginning. But I think a lot of people were hungry for someone who would give them an individual playbook for how to operate at work. I mean, that's what I've been thinking about is like, okay, I kind of always not been Sheryl Sandberg fan the same time. I have this is always rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed fake it seemed like. I don't want to. I don't want to be the executive of a company, and there were certain things that she was advocating that just seems so foreign to like being a human being an operating in the workplace like as not Tomasson, actually. And also just ignoring the fact that if if you actually want more women to succeed, you can't just tell them to do things like lean in and get up at five AM to check their emails. You have to address the things that are holding them back to which involves I think some kind of cross class solidarity, and it's not just going to happen from the women at the upper echelons telling people below them what to do. But do we want more women to have power? Yes. But I want is this what having more power looks like like, the the ideal world in which women get to have more power. But they behave. Absolutely. Like benevolent socialist is like is that realistic is that like a realistic? That is a great question. And I to your initial question about is it villainous or is it just capitalist? I want to say those things. Are not usually exclusive. And that potentially the fact that it is the way capitalism operates makes it even more villainous and pervasive. But I think I have written plenty of articles about like, oh, people who want more women on corporate boards and the great things that happen when there's gender equity at the top. And it's you know, more good, governance, less fraud. Like all the things you want an ethical company to do. But I'm starting to think that that's not the argument we want to make because that's basically saying, you know, obviously, it's true. And if it's true, we should say it. But it's it's saying that like women have something some innate quality that makes them more ethical leaders. And then when we turn around and have a Sheryl Sandberg at becomes like, oh, what does this say about women's leadership? And I think the fact that she made herself this icon of corporate feminism. The rest of us a little bit of a disservice. Because now we're forced to place her within the context of feminism where I don't think she really belonged in the first place interesting, although she put herself there, it's not like we fake Lee put her there. She was perceived and maybe by many people in this audience, and we'll hear on the question and answer session is like an inspiration. I mean, right. I see people nodding in the audience. There are many people nodding in the end some phasing and shaking heads Sheryl Sandberg was inspiration. I remember like I do a lot of home exchanges. And I remember twice in home exchanges with my family. I opened the I opened the closet door of the woman's house. Who is the home Eckstrom exchanges like you? Switch houses with people. You do that just for fun. Yeah. Like in a different city like they take your house where you take their house. It's free and get a car and everything. Anyway, it's a good way to so. So into closets of the women who I was doing home exchange. They had cut out lean and this was in the height of the Leinen years and had them there as like their inflict points of inspiration from sheriff. Sincerely, like inspirational to too many, many many women and so self help right. And it self help using the language of feminism. And when most people go into the workplace, they're not thinking how today can I make things structurally better for women? Like just you're trying to get through the day. You're trying to do better for yourself. Like, you're you're trying not to be jerk. Your maybe trying on an individual level to mentor people in your office or just be quietly a good force for women in your office. But you're probably not going to be able to solve like feminism in your own office, and certainly not across the country. Not well, like if you're going to spend your capital on the office. Should you spend? Your capital kind of positioning yourself as we have just seen her do like there's one interpretation of what she's done. If you read the details of this article, which is like protect her status. Protect the kind of prophets of that company. Is that how you should spend your capital or could you possibly spend your capital like like petitioning, your boss to have slightly more generous work life. I don't know. There's lots of ways you spend your capital in a workplace you could. But let's say you're thirty three years old. You wanna get promoted at work, and you become the person who's complaining about women's benefits day in day out. You might not get promoted, right? Because of the structure, you're in where the people at the top are going to think kindly on totally. I'm just I'm just reading like explained the appeal of it if we're operating in the world, even if you, you know, care about the cause and think of it as a cause it just might not be as applicable to your daily life as like thinking about how mentorship happens and thinking about you know, how what are the men doing in this office that I? I am not doing. But then, but okay. So so so is the conclusion of this conversation that feminism feminism defined as individuals self empowerment is a mistake. Well, I think that's sort of like a category or right like feminism is a movement of solidarity. I think and so it's sort of difficult to say that individual self empowerment is feminism sure it can operate within feminism. But I don't think that it's a standard for feminist. I think it matters. Also what you're being empowered to do. And I think the title of her movement lean in doesn't tell us what we're supposed to be leaning into. And I think she's leaned in to some really unsavory practices that are destabilizing, democracy and bad for women in the end. And I think the not that Facebook would have been a feminist company had. She acted differently. But I think there's a certain. When you're talking about being cutthroat in your own life. And that I think it's an easy step to then let that trickle into how you're operating your business. And I'm also curious whether people who are fans of Sheryl Sandberg who've cut out lean in and put it in their closet every morning. Will be inclined to defend her. We'll be disillusioned by this. These revelations. Or whether you know, she's just another leader of another company. And that's the way they do things. Just allusion. I think people will be super disability. Some people might just say like this is what you do. Yeah. Like, you guys are being naive. This is this is she's she's one of the most powerful business women ever pretty much in America with a Hugh a tremendous amount of power, and what do we expect? I mean just to turn this little bit. Like, I think that the one possible interpretation of both that New York Times article in this conversation is that it's a little bit sexist, and that we are putting women in a trap by by being surprised when they have a tremendous amount of power and are put in a situation where they have to defend their company, and then they do just that. And so there's always this pressure on the way that New York Times article unfolded, she was the mommy, and he was the baby. Yeah. Honestly, like, she's the mommy and she made all the decisions, and she was all prepared. And he was like. I don't know like ask. Mommy. The question. His company. So like, so that's not the way we rolled out the story. It was like, well, she's a woman, and she has a certain ethical responsibility that he doesn't have. And so we kind of like, I don't know it's like J specific ethical responsibility. But I think because she has this whole other side of her persona, which is about how women should conduct themselves in the workplace. We're forced to interpret her actions at something bigger than just what she did which is kind of ironic because her whole thing is like, oh, just do what's right for you. And you know, she does have a lot to say about mentor ship and. Women have created lane in circles where they venture each other and share their experiences. So I don't want to say it's just about her. But I think there's a little bit of a blind spot in terms of how she like a willful blind spot in terms of how her actions affect other people can I say worried about lean in circles, and I've been to Alina. No. But I have you been I really have not. But I people have been to Alina circle, they're not invoke anymore. But I think instead of as an alternative to having a lean in circle, this is what I've done at work. Ask your male friends, how they would go about asking for like ask them how they would conduct themselves when situation and I find that so much more helpful. It's like it's just getting, you know, the, it's your eyes are open. You're like, oh, no, they don't feel bad about this at all. It's just like if you're going to actually copy the men like actually copied them like Lord, give me the confidence of a mediocre, white, man. There's literally I suggest that everyone. Do this pick a literal person in your workplace? I have. Have someone in my workplace? He doesn't know who he is who I literally before I go to ask for raise or advocate for myself in some way. I think what would this person do? And I become a little more confident when I think about that. But I could also just ask him. You're right Noreen. Now, you can't. You're right. I mean, what you were saying HANA, and I do think that the New York Times article was written a little bit this way. So I'm not sure how much was the the writers decision, and how much is just the truth or how much is the way their sources interpret things. But I, you know, are we treating her with harsher? Are we treating her more harshly Mark Roe because she's a woman I feel as angry with him as I do with her the person if you go into the article a person to be really mad at is. Joel Kaplan who is making a lot of the decisions alongside Sheryl Sandberg. Fired him. What's it who hired him Gerald cherry? Right. So. So I think yes, there probably is an element of sexism. To the way that sucker. Berg is allowed to be a child at thirty four and like Sandberg was hired at thirty eight to be the ultimate rumors and all that much difference between those ages. But like her job is to be the manager of the company like this does all fall under her purview. He did in part hire her because he knew he was bad at this kind of stuff. And she did what she was supposed to do pretty effectively. I mean, it seems like she was actually kind of checked out at certain points when she was promoting another book. But like what she was supposed to do was to. Was to prevent this all happening for a while she held it off. And she, you know, she went to congress. She wrote. Thank you notes for every for every congressman. She was very prepared and consider that emotional labor. Posey freeze. I think she sees that as I mean that is part of what makes her so good, right? Like, there's no evidence as I as far as I can tell that she's like super charming or funny, but she's very sort of correct? In the way that she approaches people. She probably always remembers everyone everyone's name, you know, she knows what their issues are. She's like prep for the thing which is in in in and of itself kind of gender kind of stereotype, but like that is her approach and she travels with an entourage of ten or twelve people the article said, so it's possible. One of them whispering in her ear like veep, veep. All right. I think that's all the time. We have a purse, Cheryl Sandberg. I'm really curious to hear from our listeners. If there's any people who are involved in lean in circles or fans of hers on what they think. So if you're listening, and you have thoughts Email us at the waves at slate dot com. This episode of the waves is brought to you by helix helix is on a mission to empower everyone to improve their life through DNA. They offer the next generation of DNA testing by capturing one hundred times more data than most other at-home DNA tests this unlocks more than just ancestry. 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She's the author of the two thousand fourteen novel everything I never told you her second and most recent novel. Little fires everywhere came out in two thousand seventeen I recommended it on the show a few weeks back. It's a brilliant book. So please welcome to the wave selecting. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me on high high high. So we read your book, I loved your book, and I love in particular the way you write about motherhood in the book, one of my favorite plotlines of the novel is the one about this young Chinese immigrant who gives birth to a baby girl, and because she's living in poverty and depressed in any number of factors. She leaves the baby at a fire station. A white couple tries to adopt the baby she takes them to court one of the things. I love best about that plotline is my sympathies were drawn in multiple directions. And there didn't seem to be an easy answer to these questions. How do you think about those questions, and and how do you engage your readers sympathies in those ways? Well, I'm glad you said that your sympathies were pulled in different ways. Because that was that was really what I wanted. I have a eight year old now when I was reading the book is about five, and he he was really in this phase with his friends about how he met the who the good guys and the bad guys are when they play recess when you're watching start where stuff. Do you want to be the good guy? Do you wanna be bad guy? And I felt it was really important to talk to him about the idea that. That bad guys. Don't always think that they are the bad guys bad guys, generally think that they are the good guys. And they think that what they're doing is important and necessary. Right. And it doesn't mean that it is. But it means that we have to kind of understand how they're seeing the world in order to understand why they would do these things. So when I wrote this book, I really didn't want there to be villain. And I wanted it to be complicated. US sort of about how I see this howling gauge readers with this my answer to that is basically that I don't think I have answers for this. But I wanted to raise all this questions. I wanted to make people think, oh, we'll maybe maybe this person has point here. But maybe this person has a point there. I wanted it to be really complicated. You know, the other two moms I thought about a lot too because one represents kind of order shaker heights order everything in its place. She's not the worst like, she's a journalist. You know, she has sort of cultivated curiosity. I guess in America that does make her the worst these days. But in my eyes, not the worst. But she's not like a she's not like a stepford wifey character. She's she's sort of likeable and has wonderful children and all that. But there is a kind of one is chaos. One is free spirit and free spirit pays a price and chaos. Mom order mom pays the price and free spirit. Mom pays a price. And I've I've thought a lot about like as a writer, you know, as a writer slash mother. Each of those is do you think of them as a stark archetype of mother is like all mothers are split between those two instincts because they were extreme in the book. I think one of the jobs of the writer is to kind of take a real life situation in dial up to eleven so to speak because that's sort of when we start to see the contrast. But I really think of them as being flip sides of the same coin. I mean, people ask me a lot. He's a witch mother. Are you are you are you MRs Richardson, and the answer is that I really kind of both in some ways. Like, I I am like an order muppet myself. Like, I really like things being in order. I don't like it when there's not a plan. I don't like unexpected surprises. But. I also think of myself as a creative person, and I want to be flexible, and I think that's sort of the dichotomy that like most most people, maybe, but especially most women, I think have to kind of manage especially if they become parents if sort of saying how much joy enforce the rules, and how much might try and to sort of break those rules or change those rules or expand the space that I'm living in her expand the space that my my children have. So for me there. There's sort of like a Moebius strip like it goes if you follow it all the way round, you could've come out the other side and. I heard from a lot of readers that they think Elena Richardson is sort of like this. She's getting everything wrong, and she's so rigid, but means restrict rigid in her own way. I mean, she she kind of takes a hard line in in not ever sitting down roots in not ever focusing on something sorry for for readers who have not yet read your book. Can you just give a two sentence summary? And then I want to ask you so Celeste, and I are from the same hometown actually in the book. Oh, wow. Her sister, her older sister was in my class. We discovered this like well after and then I wanted to ask you about the setting about shaker heights. And why you mean you chose to? So they're probably because you're from there. But what you thought set up the political or identity themes shaker? So let me give you the two two sentence some of the book, and then ask me your question again. So the book takes place in shaker heights, Ohio, which is a suburb of Cleveland of it's where I grew up in where Noreen grew up in many other people, but it's a pretty small town. And it's a really great place to grow up. It's very progressive generally speaking, it's really focused a lot on racial diversity was one of the reasons that my parents moved there when when I was in high school, I think it was almost fifty fifty black and white and for comparison the town to the east was ninety three percent white seven percent non white and the town directly to the south was like ninety seven percent black and three percent white. I guess. And it was it was really unusual for that. And we talked a lot about race. So one of the families that lives in this town, the Richardson's are the heart of the book the mothers, the journalists we talked about the father's a lawyer. And they've got four kids. There's this archetypal nuclear family and a single mother and her teenage daughter come to town. This is Mia Warren and her daughter Pearl, and they move around a lot. They're not stable of professions. They're really sort of at odds with the community and with the family, and these two families sort of get mixed up with each other. When they're the town is split over two Dopp Shen battle. This Asian American baby is being adopted by white couple and these two moms Mia and Alina Richardson, find themselves on opposite sides. And that's when all these sort of secrets in conflict start to come out. And so I was particularly interested in sort of the blind spots that you saw and shake our whereas you said we talked so much when we were growing about up about the value of diversity, and what that could bring but just talking about. It is an imperfect thing, obviously. Shake our Hades makes really conscious effort to talk about issues of race. And it's something that I didn't appreciate until after I'd moved away. I went to college and people said wait you had a race relations group at your high school. And I said, yeah, it was kind of like the cool club to join in some ways like you would meet and you meet every few weeks, and then you would go, and you would talk to kids in the elementary schools. And you say like, okay. So what what is the stereotype how do these how do these form? How do we try and work past them? We were really talking about a lot of issues of diversity. And I didn't realize that was the case until I went away. And so I think like many people after I've been away for about ten years. I started to look back on my hometown with a slightly different perspective. I could see all the things about it that really good in that. I appreciate it. And then also the things about it that are sort of weird and quirky. And that again, I had thought were normal until I went away. So by setting a book in a town, that's actually doing things. Well. Yeah. I mean relatively well that's being kind of conscious about race and teaching kids very different from its surroundings making an effort. And yet the thing that goes wrong is is racial tension and sort of sublimated racial tension. What's what's the? I like what what are we what is the I do that. No. I mean, it's a really into it seems important like we do talk a lot now about I mean, there is unconscious bias like like like white privilege. There's sort of a lot of the people with the good intentions are the people that we shine the spotlight on my we I'm in left a lot now. So I'm just curious. Yeah. What motivated you to set it? There is opposed to like one of the towns that didn't even conscious that was one of the things that I really wanted to explore a sort of how far good intentions can take you. Whether good intentions are a substitute for actual results, maybe shaker heights. I think does a lot of talking about this. But it still has problems with race. Even when I was there which was in the nineties and move there when I was ten, and I stayed until college. There was still a lot of discussion. If you went into the cafeteria, you would see that the tables had basically self segregated themselves. So they would be tables that were largely white kids in tables that were largely black kids the same with classes. If you went into the AP classes, they were largely white. And if you went into. Sort of the college prep like this sort of general classes, a lot of them with students of color, and it was something that was even with all of their efforts was clearly there were still a divide. And I wanted to kind of look at how even when you have the best of intentions that sometimes not necessarily enough. I'm curious about the responses you've gotten to that especially from people from your hometown. Yeah. I was really nervous about it. Because I was supposed to go to shaker heights at the beginning of bookstore, and for scheduling reasons, it got bumped to the end. So it was the last stop on my book tour and every single stop before that people would sit like every every reading someone said, so what do the people in shaker heights? Think about your book and the more they asked the more nervous. I got about it. And when I learned for asking, no, it's the story has has sort of happy ending. I think in that. I was supposed to go and give this reading, and they said we actually had a lot of interest. And we we have like eight hundred people lined up to come. And so we've moved it to the auditory of the middle school, which is my middle school where I last when I was a bad. So it was a very it was very weird. The last time I had been there. I was I think it was in the orchestra. And I was standing in the I'll and I had to play a whole new world from Ladan was the sort of you don't performing loaded with awkward this. Oh, yeah. They had me in the in the green room was backstage. And they had the desks that have the death the little chair and the desk is attached to it. And I had to sit there in it. And I was again feeling like I was in middle school. And then this subject of your next book. I think so it's the traumas that middle school inflicts on you. And then behind me was shelf of all of these old textbook. Some of which I remembered from being in middle school. So it was like throwing me into the deep end of. My teenage years, but the people in shaker heights mostly have seen the book. I think the way I wanted it to be seen in which is as a loving portrait of a place that I care about that really shaped me, but that also is kind of honest about its blind spots. I think is what you were saying. That even though we're trying we don't always necessarily get it. Right because we're humans, and I think in a lot of ways it's a very shaker heights way of looking at things, which is like, we don't get it. Right. But we're going to keep trying. We're very idealistic Quaker. Like, I know you're a Catholic. But the whole fifteen is Quaker. Quaker? It's yeah. The shakers we're religious group. It is the shakers. I did I went into this rabbit hole of research, which any writers out there will know, you can spend a lot of time researching things, and you do a lot of research any very small amount of it actually works its way into the final product. But the the shakers never actually lived in shaker heights. They didn't found the community because one of their main tenants is syllabus. And so basically after a while they they died out. And shaker heights was built on the land where they used to live. But there's a lot about this to shake the philosophy of the shakers their religious group that actually explained a lot about shaker heights to me that they are really were idealist. They were a lot of ways really a head of their time. They're progressive that were basically communist they believed in gender quality. And yet at the same time. They were also really kind of uptight for lack of a better word, and that explains so much to me because that's very much sort of how I think about shaker heights twos. Being this weird combination. If those two things so I know that a lot of book clubs and shaker heights and all over the country have read your book. I wondering what you think it is about your book that makes groups of people maybe often groups of women wanted to discuss it like what makes a book like interesting to clubs. You have any theories of the book club. I think books that start conversations seem to be the main thing, it doesn't even have to be that everybody in the book club loves it it, but I. There's something about. A book asking questions that people answer in different ways, and that people can map their own experiences onto and say, okay, I I felt aligned with his character. And someone else will he really because I really hated that character I really was aligned with this character. If you like what makes a good book club book is is not actually does everyone care about it or love it. Or are they interested in the subject, but just that there's something about it that should've touches a nerve for them that makes them want to go and talk about it with other people. I don't know what it is about my book. It may be the one of the things that it's looking at is sort of this very big question about what makes a good mother. And that's really kind of electrified question. And it's one that I'm not sure there is a good answer for that. We put a lot of weight on culturally, but it's also like race motherhood community class class are also women sort of what the role of artisan immigration, like there's just so much in that book to think about and she over. Yeah. And I know you're also. A mother were you working through some questions yourself as you were writing? Yeah. I think I think that's that's sort of what happens in all of my work. It's not that. I'm directly an analog of any of them. I have these questions about you've got to mothers one who sort of is taking the more. Well, trodden path she works in office job, and so on and then there's this other mother who is kind of she's sort of sacrificing a lot for her art, and she sacrificing a lot of her child's future for our two. And as a person in the arts, I sort of wonder, you know. Am I doing the right thing? Maybe I should stop going on book tour coming to book festivals. And I should be home like making the cookies and making his luncheon in reaching his after noons after school, it's that kind of pushing well that I think I'm still working out like probably the next project will we working that out to outside your novel, you waded into this just like such heated thing about Asian women. White men marriages, this is a story read, a New York magazine, this is really interesting, and can you just talk a little bit about just all of it? Just blew hate the Asian. Was that was rattled. I chuckled when you said, I waited into it because it was less. I waited into it more that I felt I was standing well inland. And then this very large wave came and splashed over me. How do I even explain this simply so I learned that to my dismay there is a small, but very vocal contingent of particularly Asian men who were very angry at a lot of Asian women. Sensitively because they are married to non Asian men. So I'm married to a white, man. And they periodically come at me on Twitter or elsewhere and call me terrible names in communist traitor, and tell me that my son is going to grow up to become a shooter. Because of course, he's going to be mentally imbalanced because I'm teaching them to hate it and really horrible stuff, and these these emails will just sporadically pop into my inbox from my website, or they'll all get messages on Twitter, just not relevant to anything that just felt like emailing me that day. And so this is this is happened for a long time. And I was sort of startled by this. Because I don't think of myself as a person who hates Asian men their Asian men that I love dearly. But it's something that I hadn't expected to deal with and fairly recently. I got an Email that was kind of vicious about my son, and I was frustrated, and I put it on Twitter because it seemed like the the the goal of it was to make me be quiet, and I didn't feel like being quiet about it anymore. And a lot of Asian women came to me and said actually we've been harassed in similar ways often by the same people. And a lot of black woman came and said, actually, there's a similar dynamic that sometimes happens in the black community and so on and so I ended up writing this piece for New York magazine because it seemed like something that nobody wanted to talk about there was this. Shame of feeling like I must have done something wrong. I think that the roots of it really are misogynistic rather than racial that it it does seem to have this idea of these are women, and you're taking them from us. And there's something that you know, there's something that we own them generally has to do with sex in our bodies. Like, we owe it to them because interestingly these same Asian men are totally fine with Asian men. Dating white women. They have a lot of really complicated theories about why. That's okay. But it's not okay. For Asian women to date, white men, and you can fill in for yourself with this. This is writing this article involve me going into the recesses of some very scary boards on read at the internet discussion site, which I don't I don't recommend to anybody. But. It was interesting in doing this also to see that there were echoes in a lot of these small subgroup of Asian men. Most Asian men are not like this at all. But that they're using language that echoes that of white supremacists. They're talking about racial purity they're talking about. They prefer to whitewashing your jeans and eugenics, and it was startling to me to think as we've been talking about the culture that we're in now that that is that seems to be in the water right now that that feeling of. I don't even know what to call it. The. Genetic purity or white supremacists or things that theories that originate with your of being erased, I keep coming back to that chant from the Charlottesville like you. You will not replace us. It feels like resonant of whatever that sending it is this fear that they're going to be that they're going to be bred out of existence. Read it interesting article recently about the rise of the far-right in Germany, and that a lot of it maps, very neatly into places in east Germany, where there was a huge exodus of women for economic reasons. But that now a lot of the men who are in those areas sometimes outnumbered like two to one are voting for the alternative for line, which is really far right part part. And I think that you can't separate out the issue of gender from all of these questions. Oh, yeah. I think it's a very far-ranging. Sorry. No. Thank you so much for caring. I think that's all the time. We have. But please read a little fires everywhere. It's an excellent book. And thank you so much for your time less. Maybe. There's no substitute for luxury Italian footwear, unparalleled quality, incredible style. And she's you just don't see every day, but to get that type of luxury you have to pay a luxury price. Well, at least you used to have to until Jimmy 'em. Jimmy merges the time honored Italian shoemaking tradition with a modern customer experience. Their shoes are handcrafted in the same family owned workshops in Italy were items from the most well known luxury brands are made and instead of releasing seasonal collections. Four times a year. They dropped brand new limited edition shoes every single Monday that way, they can -ticipant trends respond to customer feedback and offer something fresh every week. They call it. The Monday drop. Check them out for yourself at 'em Jimmy dot com slash waves for fifty dollars off your first pair. That's the letter M G E M I dot com slash waves for fifty dollars off. If your first pair 'em, jemmy dot com slash waves 'em jemmy Italian luxury made the old way sold the new way. All right next up. We have New Orleans colleague action it Rebecca trae Stor. She's a writer at large at New York magazine and a contributing editor at L, she's the author of big girls don't cry and all the single ladies. And most recently good and mad a book about the historical and political impact of women's anger. We are so Sykes to have around the show. Please welcome. Rebecca trae Stor. Thank you so much. I just want mmediately get back into the previous conversations. I was sitting back there. And like I wanna talk about this could have been like voice of God on a Mike back there. So your book is about women's anger. I've been feeling a little bit of that lately. It's weird a little bit of women's definitely the only one, but reading your book it made me feel like a part of something. But I have to say that anger that I've been feeling around bread Kavanagh, and it comes in waves some days, I won't feel as angry about Trump's feel very angry about Trump some days. I'll be furious about me to some days. I'll be happy about me too. For me, it it doesn't always feel powerful. It feels nauseating. It feels paralyzing. Sometimes it feels energizing vital. But it's it's not a fun feeling. And you're telling us that it can be this fertilizer, the seeds of political and social change. So how do we take that? How have women taken that sort of nauseating part of me that the powerful part? Well, in part, I think it's the intensity of the feeling. So the book again doesn't necessarily my argument is not that the feeling of anger is inherently power. Awful. And that you can immediately recognize your anger is the thing that's going to lead you to the forefront of transformative social movement that will look back on. As as having altered the nation permanently. It's more like. Considering I my guess, and my book doesn't come at this exactly from a personal psychological perspective Seraya tamales book, rage becomes which was published a couple of weeks before mine, and his wonderful tackles, the sort of individual feeling of it, the nausea the horror the frustration in part that I think is tied up with the way that women's anger often anger at inequity or injustice. You can feel like you're powerless, and you can also feel like the anger that you're feeling you're weird for feeling it. It's going to fundamentally undermine you. If you express it because then you're just going to be that angry woman who nobody takes your sleep that you can't do anything with it in part. It's that notion of paralysis because women's anger is discouraged censured and made marginal and framed as unattractive especially for women of color framed as threatening. That makes us feel like we can't take that anger and express it in the way that might just be normal healthy and human to say, I'm incredibly pissed off about this. And then you might feel to have people listen to you and take it seriously and say why and then have that anger treated is diagnostic in the way that we are more likely to treat the anger of white men, for example as politically diagnostic, right? That's one of the things that I noticed when I was reading this book in the midst of post two thousand sixteen coverage that told us again, and again correctly that the anger of working class white men in the mid west with something that politicians needed to take seriously. This is true. Why because it told us about the issues that needed to be addressed unemployment rampant drug addiction. Lack of access to afford healthcare the drying of certain professions, right? Their anger was something that political campaigns and candidates had to taken seriously. And if they didn't it was a failure. Because it pointed us to the things that are broken. And that's right. But we don't take the anger of other kinds of people and treated as instructive in that same way. And so if we're feeling some of that anger that we know is not going to earn us a story on the front of the paper. That says why aren't we taking Christina's anger seriously, and pointing us toward all the things that are broken that can make us that's can be part of what feels corrosive and make us feel sick to our stomachs. You feel like the anger around me to has not been taken seriously. No, I think it has been one of the things I'm sort of paying attention to is the fact that we are hearing women's anger differently for reasons that are complicated because a lot of. It is the anger of white suburban women are white wealthy women. And that was something that's really important about how the hashtag metoo movement erupted in the fall of last year is that it came from. Women who had risen to the top of a white patriarchal system by many measures. We're wealthy to Milan alyssum Milano, well and Angelina Jolie and Paltrow and some of the women who initially told their stories about Harvey Weinstein having assaulted them. And it actually I was thinking about it when you were talking about Cheryl Sandberg, something that has been obsessing me is this notion of whether you tell women how to navigate through white patriarchy and get to the top of it. And then what it means to have the revelation that even for those women who sort of win at white patriarchy. Whether it's. Paltrow whether it's Hillary Clinton. Whether it's Christine Bazi Ford part of what we've seen over the past couple years is those women the less being punished oppressed attacked or losing within that way. Picture that is so interesting. I the thing you said just totally crystallized for me about how people take it seriously. And so they think they have to respond to it. Maybe I mean, I hear what you're saying about white women. But maybe it also has to do with the collective nature of it. Because it's a it's a thing that happened during Twitter. And so there was a collective anger. And what happens to women is like what happens to women and sort of how every woman feels like she has to figure out. Like, like, work work, mother issues herself in the work. There's this way in which every anger becomes individual. And you are individually Judge Frank, but something about the movements instant collective nature. Made it impossible not to respond to in some way. And I think that's actually one of the useful things about expressing anger. So many of the social and individual personal messages that we're taught from the time we're outside of necessarily political context is to not express her anger, right? That if we speak angrily, if we raise art of the things that I'm sure we're in leaning if I remember it clearly, which I don't like if you raise your voice, if you're aggressive, then people are going to hear you differently. You might not get that raise you might. If you're women of color, and you get angry for being pulled over for nothing you ever right to be angry. You take a terrible risk. If you get mad at your arresting officer, right? There are very real penalties placed on women for expressing their anger. And then they're small social ones like people are gonna think you're a bit. People are going to not want to be around you. They're not going to take you as seriously. We know that if Christine before Ford, raise her voice in anger. She would have probably been arrested like we can't even envision a world in which she could've responded to a yours. But in the instances where anger or resistance or dissent is expressed. It can be incredibly connective for people one of the reasons that I think with the expression of women's anger is discouraged the expression of anger of marginalized people is because in addition to anger being divisive and destructive, and it has those qualities it can also be connective because if you can if you raise your voice an anger, then you become audible to other women who might feel angry about the same thing. But have been thinking all this time that they were alone angry themselves, and that I heard that process described over and over again, I write about this in the book when I went to report last summer on the white suburban women in Atlanta, then organizing around the Jon Ossoff race and many of them have been in these conservative communities where they had voted democratic for a long time. And we're angry about things but had kept it inside because they didn't want to be the skunk. Get the party. They didn't want to mess up. The you know, the neighborhood dynamic. Everybody was conservative. They didn't even put lawn signs out. And they felt their politics were weird. They felt that their anger was out of place. They sort of directed inward. And then after the election, they got so mad that they couldn't keep it anymore, and they kinda screamed or cried or whatever. And when they did they realized that a woman doors down was angry about the same thing had been their neighbor for thirty years, and they've never spoken about these things. But then they started talking and then like they went to an indivisible meeting, and they have devoted every minute of their spare time ever since two not electing Jon Ossoff, but working for Stacey Abrams and loosening bath, and that has anger and the expression of it made them discernible to each other, and to anger can be connective and communicative in that it makes you feel less alone in part of a collective, although. As I was reading your book. I was thinking about a tech Saana me of anger, like what anger is authentic. How is it channeled? How to Steve Bannon use it? How does the white working classes? Not it was when they were unions a collective anger coalesced directed in particular direction. That's not the white working class mail anger now because there isn't any union through which you can directed channel it up. It's very individualistic. But what I feel like men are really good at the actress the theater of anger because when Brett cliven actually lost it. We were like, whoa, dude. Like, we were the people who supported him and the same with Lindsey Graham, Lindsey Graham responded to Brad Kavanagh with anger people who supported them were energized by needed him because his anger was the theatrical version of red Kavanagh's real he saved breath cavenaugh because doing theater of anger, which people are cool with men doing the Brent having all like. Like. I think the force that intersects with these different kinds of anger and explains to some degree how they're useful in how is power. So the power of a white working class organizing in a labor movement is an anger that is directed at the more powerful. Right. It's about an expansion of opportunity and challenging a system that is depriving the people who are angry of something. Right. But the anger of a white working class right now again a community that is economically in trouble. And I'm not denied, but the actual direction of their anger isn't at the more powerful. It's not at the Republicans. It's not at the capitalism. It's at it's actually they're taking an anger of the powerful about their status that has been challenged they perceive that their saddest been challenged. I don't think they're doing anything. I'm just thinking about how their anger is manipulated like their anger has been repackaged through info wars, right wing sites. And Steve Bannon to to the narrative has been totally patronizing what I'm saying. But I actually think it's true that their anger has been taken and packaged and put into a story, which is sort of everywhere in picked up. It's not their own in some ways. That's interesting. I think that there are people who have bought perhaps a story fed to them by somebody else that you know, an immigrant is taking their job. Even though an immigrant hasn't taken their job. Their job has just been replaced to China. But I don't think that that's a false narrative, necessarily, otherwise these people are speaking with their votes and their voting for people like Rhonda Santa's has women's anger been package in that way. I mean, you could make an argument the sort of on on the right? It has women's anger on behalf of a white patriarchy is absolutely. I mean, that's the mama grizzlies. Right. Pretty much the only kind of women's anger that. That is broad now we are in a period where we're celebrating celebrating acknowledging listening to women's anger differently. That's in part. The thing that I'm writing the book about that's the anger of Maria are Chila Maria Gallagher in the elevator. Yelling at Jeff flake was an anger that I think was received extremely warmly and very powerfully. It went viral it channeled something for millions of women who are not in that elevator. And of course, it was the polar opposite of the kind of rhetorical range that was offered Christine Blasi Ford, but historically, the kind of women's anger that's been held up as a model of ferocity has been anger. That's been deployed on behalf of fundamentally conservative. I would argue regressive politics on behalf of a white patriarchy. So that's mama grizzlies. That's the anger of wing women. That's the anger of Fox News anchors who. But is that anger or or theater of anger? Well, that's the question. It is it is we are asked to I think sometimes right wing anger is real anger. Phyllis schlafly was genuinely angry at the disruptions to the sort of social order that had been made by second wave feminism. I think. And she marshaled an army of I think also offensive angry white women to stop the ratification of the. I think that a lot of the women the white women who stood on the front lines and objected to the integration of schools were angry at the disruption of a social order. So I do think that some of that anger is real do. I think that Sarah Palin was I do I mean have remembering going to heraldic in two thousand eight and hurt talking about how bomber was going to take the guns, and we had to he's going to come into your house in the night and take your guns away. Yeah. I think there was some anger fear. You don't think of that as I think it was playing on fear? But I think she was taking a she was the way she was saying it is I'm I'm a real American, and I'm going to make sure this doesn't happen. I when you talk about the women who yelled at Jeff flake in the elevator. I had a reaction watching that. That was like, you know, like, oh my gosh. This is so uncomfortable for me to watch. I feel awkward like I feel. All the ways that the patriarchy has told me to feel about women's anger. Do you guys know what we're talking about by the way? Okay. Cool. I'm so glad that she's. And the video really did go viral, and I feel the same way. Sometimes when I see, you know. So that part of it was that he'll so the point an elevator all think hearing like one or two people yelling, and then sort of realizing that the subject of their anger is not walking away. So they have to think of more things to yell like I just felt so uncomfortable watching, and I love the way you wrote in your book about the anger of metoo exploding in unpredictable ways and unpredictable directions that can feel very unsafe as a woman who's invested in feminism for like self interested reasons and also philosophical reasons like, where's this going are people being too angry? Should we have put names on the shitty? Media men list. Is that is that sort of volatility and the unpredictability part of the power is that something that happens all the time when people get angry. So I make this argument in the book about how the challenge to power is perceived as disruptive dangerous because it is that power operating in one direction is just power. But if somebody's going from the bottom and challenging the top. That's when we get talked about as a mob as a witch hunt. And I feel the same way. Explain that. Sorry. I didn't understand that. Yeah. So one of the things that I've sort of become obsessed with thinking about how challenge works or violence works. I actually I started thinking about it in two thousand fifteen when Freddie gray was killed by police in Baltimore. He was an African American man who was taken on a rough ride in a police fan. And he later died from his injuries and. There were protests in response. And I at the time was writing a column, I was reading all this coverage. And all the coverage said the violence began when protesters threw rocks, and that was a big sort of revelatory moment for me because it was the first time that I understood how when violence, and this is distinct from anger, but I think related that when violence happens in one direction when it's the police who kill a black man in Baltimore. It's so normalized, actually, it's so part of how we understand power and power abuses to work that it's not even discernable as the commencement of violence. It's the throwing of the stones by people whose only power is to throw stones. In that scenario that is comprehensible as disorder and disruption, and that's how the violence commitment. So you're saying we don't recognize structural things that happened within an accepted structure as violence that we don't recognize structural violence or violence, like a is that what you're we that? We normalize all kinds of things that happen when they come from the top down various forms of abuse punishment. We don't bat is at them. Or if we we might write critically about them in newspapers, but the ease of characterizing characterizing something as violent chaotic disruptive. There's another example very recent which is the way that the women screaming as they took the vote on Cavanaugh was the that was the mob. And we were all told that the backlash to that kind of it was. It was a mob, and and Donald Trump compared them to arsonists, and he wasn't alone. I had all the references a few weeks ago right after it happened. I can't remember everybody who said everything somebody on Fox News. Call them screaming animals. This is the kind of this. It was it was a mob. And that was an instance in which this man who had been alleged to have committed a violent assault as a young, man. But who also was going to was being pushed through to sit on the court to have enormous power. The only power that women had in that moment. They were being voted over. They were being they were losing the only power. They had was to yell, but the very active yelling was framed by politicians and by many in the media as risky disordered, chaotic scary and lots of people even in the in the left media. We're like, oh my God. This is gonna create a backlash because these angry protesters are going to be viewed negatively and the right is going to benefit from it. And there was a lot of commentary that suggested that that might happen because that was the disorder and that was very true of. Me too. So all of the abuse that was being objected to was something that had just happened normally for as long as there's been people in power. But when we started in radical ways to object to it to yell about it to put people's names on this. It was dangerous because it was a reversal of how power supposed to work and the people and it was then it was a witch hunt. Then it's every day of my life. I get asked me to gone too, far and poor Matt Damon up into Matt Damon because people were very critical name and on the internet after he said some condescending things about the me too movement. And everywhere, I go, I truly not everywhere, but many places and asked about like, the horrors experienced by Matt Damon. There goes my next question. Because the challenge is like when when the people who are have less power, deploy it in dissent or resistance to the way of our structure typically works, it does create chaos and the answer to the question that you asked many minutes ago is that I do think we need chaos because I think if you want to change the system, I actually do think an by many measures, I feel like an incremental ist within an electoral system anxious about things like revolution. Because I think the most vulnerable people are likely to suffer. But I also think that. We need if we don't create chaos and disorder. Then it means that the system staying intact. And it's the system that is built around all kinds of biases and inequities that many of us are objecting to one of my favorite moments in your book is actually when you talk about the fear of backlash the fear that you know, you quote Caitlin Flanagan at one point saying, she someone who is in favor of the me too movement. She's very afraid of exactly the scenario that like the anger will consume it. And then this doesn't follow directly from that. But you sort of have a friend who called you up after some positive electoral results. I think and says, you know, maybe we're the backlash maybe what we're doing is the backlash against this culture. And I kind of love just that reframing. It actually helped me think through this a lot because I have to just been like sitting on a hands waiting for her to come and thinking about it this way, really helpful for me. I I think we often think of these things as distinct. Moments. And I do I do this to like during me too. I was just waiting for the moment that me too ended and the backlash started like there was going to be a solid break. And the thing. One of the things in learning the history that I have been writing about in recent years is that it's always there's always forward motion and backward pressure at all times. And they're always working against each other. And we tell ourselves neat. Lies about distinct. Periods and distinct victories when in fact, the story of progress and alteration to this country's structure has been one that has been going on for two plus centuries, and we are still engaged in the very same fights. Even if we don't want to fight for full franchise -ment and bodily autonomy and a quality and participation representation. We are actually still engaged in these fights that have been going on for centuries. And we have these are pernicious is we've told ourselves that those fights have been one. I think that's all the time. We thank you so much. It was great to have you on. This episode is brought to you by simple health. Simple health is care that fits your life. They use technology to provide simple. Convenient and Affordable Care at home starting with online, birth control prescriptions and delivery with simple health a better way to get birth control. 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Don't miss your chance to try this service for free ways listeners get the twenty dollar prescription fee waived by going to simple health dot com slash waves or entering waves at checkout. That's simple health dot com slash waves or use the code waves at checkout to waive the twenty dollar. Prescription fee the services not a replacement for evaluations by your primary care physician or gynecologist. Just have a couple minutes. So we're going to do our recommendations now. Okay. Wants to go. I I'll go first I'm going to recommend because I'm in Florida homecoming, which is the Amazon show based on Gimblett podcast. It has fabulous characters played by sissies SpaceX and Julia Roberts, but one of the great characters in the show is Florida which which sneaks into the show is very like a bird. We'll suddenly fly through the window. But the main thing about Florida is that Florida looks like a government conspiracy, or at least they can make a Florida look like a government conspiracy. Like, it's this weird fake place that the government erected, and you don't know where you are on your in some anonymous office park or something so sorry, if that's Sultan. But it is this weird air that rises up in the show, which is like incredibly effective and critical part of how that show works. So it's very interesting. Good. Yeah. Laurien? We'll I I wanna give a shout out tourists Hooper fan. Jan was the audience. And then my recommendation is a new album by the pistol Annie's called interstate gospel to the pistol or like a country supergroup, it's Miranda Lambert, and this woman Ashley Monroe, a third woman who I feel very badly because I cannot remember her name. She's a little less famous. And it's just if you like Casey musk graves, it's sort of in that vein of country music. Except Casey must graves feels a little at this point a little tweet to me and the pistol Annie's or like really just like down home country. They're singing about their pill addictions. It's like the country melodrama, but through a twenty eighteen lens, and it just really fun music, especially music to drive to. So if you're driving somewhere for the holidays, the pistol inis. I am going to recommend an article from the November issue of Smithsonian magazine. You can also access it at Smithsonian MAG dot com. It's called becoming an Frank you've read it. Oh, good. Yeah. I highly recommend it. It's really sort of challenging piece about how the diary of Anne Frank became sort of the holocaust narrative that everybody clung to and why it was more appealing to the general public than tales of the holocaust from people who had written about the concentration camps. It was extremely challenging to me as a person who thinks a lot about anti semitism. These days, it seems to be resurgent in the US and around the world and the article I think did a really good job of complicating the forces that elevated her story above all others. I never read something like that before that was critical of that. And also of the organization that runs the anthrax house in Denmark, so yes, Massoni and magazine becoming an Franco's the name of the article, that's all the time. We have I really want to. Thank you guys for coming. You've been such a. Audience ANC you. Thank you. And thank you so much to the Miami book fair for having us into that. Putting this all in motion. Thank you less and Rebecca tracer for their time and their amazing writing. Thank you producer. Daniel Hewitt, our production Sistan, Alex bearish, our producer, Daniel Streeter and HANA Rosen Noreen Malone. I'm Christina cutters. G thank you for listening. Now, it's time to meet Maggie widow. She's a field coordinator for Doctors Without Borders. Also known as med sense. Phones, you or MSF it's one of the largest humanitarian organizations in the world, providing lifesaving medical care for refugees and underserved communities over the past two decades doctorswithoutborders has sent Maggie to fourteen different countries across Central America Africa and Asia in the fall of two thousand and six Doctors Without Borders sent Maggie to Thailand where she saw refugee crisis firsthand the Mong in Laos have faced discrimination and violence for decades. And at that time thousands of refugees crossed the border into Thailand the camp itself got up to about a little right around eight thousand refugees, the living conditions weren't that. Great. I mean, just people in top of people because it just kind of sprung up really really, very basic huts. Plastic sheeting gave out a lot of plastic sheeting. They cover the little twenty hut with that when it rains, especially try to keep things dry. Little bit unusual in that we were the only organization working in the camp at the time. So. So we were pretty much managing everything we were doing non food item distribution managing the water. We're doing food distribution as well. I mean doing a little bit of everything. And then we ran the clinic they had closed the last riff you camp that held a lot of Maung refugees. But there were still coming into Toyland. The government at that time. They did not want to recognize this population as refugees. There are certain rights that are granted if you're riffing, gene. There's potential somewhere else. I don't come from Laos. And so one of the big things I did was collecting people's story. So I was going around in the Cam door to door just be writing taking notes as the person was talking meeting with people. They knew people just trying to document their experiences in Laos. Taking people's stories to make. Greenwich Griffin status. Two story will always stick with me. I mean, he was living in these off limits zones in Laos surprised by ambush by soldiers. They knew just minutes before they were coming. So everybody raced out of the houses and rand deep into the Bush. All the madness of trying to get out of there is daughter got left behind the baby. She was like three months old. He went back to get the daughter, but it was too late. The soldiers had already arrived. And then he got just blasted his arm was kind of his hand. Actually, it was severed. He lost an eye out. Was left for dead. I thought he was dead and his cousin came back. Maybe a couple of days later found him they found his baby daughter. There's also a five year old that was killed that didn't make it out. But he just had a terrible story. I mean, just such tragedy. I did meet with the governor, petro Boone and also passing these stories along to my head of missions country director. So he was advocating he was meeting with the ministry of interior just trying to make a case. Officials from the tiger representing the government. Just started to analyze case by case each individual story. So I think our work did play a big role in that making noise about the situation in some of the experiences that people Brinkley horrific experiences that people had gone through very passionate about advocating for people that maybe don't have a voice for Maggie her role in the field goes way beyond medicine to be able to address the priorities. Head on. This is what's happening. We need to take care of that. And to be able to advocate for these communities. Doctorswithoutborders needs you without donors wouldn't happen. I mean that is the very essence of how we are able to do what we do all over the world to support this work. You can visit doctorswithoutborders dot org.

Sheryl Sandberg shaker heights Facebook New York Times Miami Noreen Malone New York magazine America writer Twitter Cheryl Sandberg Christina US Doctors Without Borders Celeste Rebecca trae Cheryl Sandburg Colin Laos
From the Archive: Anand Giridharadas

Design Matters with Debbie Millman

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

From the Archive: Anand Giridharadas

"Design matters. We'll be back with new shows in mid April. In the meantime, we'd like to rerun an episode that originally came out in April of twenty eighteen support for design matters media is provided by wicks dot com. Which puts the creative power of building dynamic web sites. Back into the hands of designers as anyone who has spent time in a whizzy wig platform knows what you see isn't necessarily. Always what you get on the flip side for some. It's far too easy to get lost in code and lose the forest for the trees, wicks dot com. Allows you to find your own personal sweet spot and take control of your site with their dragon drop editor hundreds of advanced design features such as retina, ready image galleries. Custom font sets HD video and parallels grueling affects and even service hassle-free coding for robust websites and applications with wicks dot com. You have total control of your web. Zayn like never before. So join wicks his brilliant community of designers artists and creatives large around the world for free and ask yourself. What will you create today? This is designed matters with Debbie moment from design observer dot com. For fourteen years now, Kebbi Midland has been talking with designers and other creative types about what they do how they got to be who they are. And what they're thinking about on this podcast. It'd be millman talks with journalists a non geared dust about his career about a divided America. And about tech monopolies. It is insane. The power they have it is nothing to me. It is a thousandfold the seriousness of any of the other monopolies that we have broken up in this country. Here's Debbie millman about thirteen years ago on owned gear Darras was working from Kinsey in company a Mumbai India. But then he moved out of business consulting into writing and journalism and hasn't looked back since he started writing for the International Herald Tribune and the New York Times and became columnists for both. He's also written two books, including the true American murder and mercy in Texas. Abetter MS lem immigrants efforts to keep the state from executing the white supremacist who tried to kill him. His latest book winners take all the elite charade of changing the world is coming out later this year unin gear. Dr does welcome to design matters. Thank you for having me. My pleasure now, given all of your major accomplishments. How do you feel about New York magazine recently, including you in an article, titled the golden era of male hair? Yeah. I mean, obviously as a writer, you're hoping for that Pulitzer award of that Nobel, but in the absence of such honors it was it was one of the greatest honors of my life. I I'd be lying. If I if I said, otherwise inner read, it ask me anything that you did one commenter said, I don't have any questions, but your hair looks amazing. What is it about your hair that seems to warrant so much attention? You have to ask bald people that I think one of the things that happens is my here's very polarizing like everything in America today. So when I go on television. There are people who say nice things about it. And then there's a lot of people who I suspect are follicly-challenged men in their basements who voted for Donald Trump and don't want me in America. Anyway. And for whom my hair is like the ultimate offense. And they just kind of want to deport it. So I got a lot of hate mail. Also probably way more than the love mill. Yeah. Like, your hair's needs to go back to its country that kind of thing, but you know, the trolls are getting more creative. You know? Like, I go back to your country. So un-imaginative, I think telling someone's hair to go back to its country. It's it's interesting hate does it hurt your feelings. No. I've learned things from my trolls. I mean, I'm not going to repeat them here. But I would say. One out of every ten things. Trolls tell you is actually useful information. Can you give us one example? Yes. So I go on MSNBC a lot remnant political analyst and often after an appearance people will give you these horrible horrible comments on your appearance. And it's it's just it's terrible. Who are these people who actually why do they bother to one like right before going to work? The like let me just make a couple of mean tweets about someone's appearance. But one out of every ten of those is like kind of this kind of like a useful sartorial tip in there. You know? So one guy one guy was like, you know, with that shirt, and that suit this guy has no neck. That's pretty mean. That's are looking at the pictures. I was like, you know, I have a shorter than average neck. I'm not shame to say. I have to look at your. Yeah. It's it's a little it's it's it's a little pie. Fortieth percent. You know? And so I asked a friend of mine sit. Simple, just where just wear t shirts with your suit jackets. I tried that looks a little better. So I do that. Sometimes like, you know, thank you troll. My wife is never going to tell me the truth about my neck length. Well, she probably likes the way your net. She may not I don't know. But you know, sometimes you just have to go on TV and endure the wrath of Trump voters to find out important truths about your body, your father traveled to the United States from India with seven dollars in his pocket, and you've written about how the first thing you ever learned about India was that your parents had chosen to leave. It you go on to state that the country was lost you in America. And you had to reassemble it in your mind from fragments of anecdotes. What did you think of India before you visited it I visited it from a pretty young age before I could really think so those two processes were kind of in parallel, but the reality that I think a lot of immigrant families the second. Generation people like don't talk about so openly. Is you have this relationship to the old country the homeland back home, whatever people call it? But the founding story of that other place is that the people you love the most the people to whom you're most attached and childhood voted to get out of that place with their feet. And so I think the honest account of the kind of my founding story with India is it's a story of exit and exit for some reason because he's a people you respect to of is amid a wise decision. And then when I would visit as a child there were a lot of things that confirmed. I mean, I I had a good time. But there were a lot of things that confirmed and built on the story line of this is a place worth leaving. You know, I had never seen a beggar in shaker heights, Ohio as a four year old five year old six year old in. In a car in Delhi or Mumbai. It's pretty jarring to see. I just. On the other side of the glass. Banging, you know heartbreaking and it never gets easier. But it's really jarring at that age. And then the fact that this was a place where my parents left because they felt to my father that his potential couldn't be developed there. And so I had a very strange relationship to it. But I think one of the funny things about wanting to be a writer is, and I got some very good advice along the way from a mentor of mine Jill Abramson that you kind of run towards things that make you uncomfortable. And that makes more interesting writing than staying close to home. And so eventually that kind of relationship that began with that negative story line was the reason for going there. And then going there transform the story. Your father would eventually graduate from Harvard, and you've written that it was not long before. My mother was backing red Oldsmobile larger than many Indian dwellings down in icy. Driveway in suburban shaker heights, Ohio not long before my father with his Indian accent with counseling, the executives of America's leading companies. They discovered new music that was not their own music new food, not their own food. They took up new styles of dressing. They soaked in the world. How did they describe their adaptation to this wildly different culture to you? Or did they at all? It was all stories. You know, we're a family that in a blissfully in the age before texting and Instagram ING, we'd just talked a lot we talked with love we talked in conflict. We you know, there's a lot of in- invariably conflict. When frankly parents are from one place in the kids are from another place, and you literally have to countries in a house. You wrote about how you would sometimes have more authentic Indian food for dinner and sometimes you'd have spaghetti. Yeah. The India that I in a way carried in my mind when I actually ended up moving there at twenty one the Indian my mind was was not a monolith. It was just this kind of collage of all these little stories and the little meanings three there, I attributed to them or or the my parents had kind of squeezed from them stories of all kinds stories about the. Kyrie already in some ways of Indian culture, the sense of family, the sense that you know, over there people respect their elders over there. People are close my mom used to always say this thing still says it he know in America. No one will ever pop over unannounced for tea at five PM. And she says it with this like real sense of mourning. You know, the reality is my mom is quite busy at five pm on most days, not necessarily available to be popped in on for t-. Which is also what America does to you. And then there were the the stories about all the things my mom was not allowed to do because she was a woman, and the fact that she couldn't go to a movie theater with this person or that person because people might see and think that she was a fast girl or a loose girl. And so stories of a things of repressions and of stagnation that justified our life where it was now, and that's very important, and it was in going back to India later on my own that I got a chance to kind of test these stories against the reality of. Of my own perception of this of this place that I had made from the collage despite the idyllic setting that you've written about and you described a town you grew up in as a sprawling neighborhood of brick and Tudor houses set on vast yards with the duct strewn ponds meandering lanes and ample sidewalks that had lured millions of Americans into suburbia. But you said this on the daily show in twenty eleven as a child the only thing you don't want to be is different from people, and you felt different. How did that shape? You I think profoundly probably. So many people do it that it becomes normal. But it's a Wild Thing to be from one place and make it another. It's a wilder thing. Still to be from one place and raise children who are citizens of some other place who need to on one level honor you and your values as parents at another level need to be authentic and like able to play in the place. You've brought them, you know, you've brought them here. So it's kinda your job to allow them to be they need to be to be here. But they're also your kids, and you want to raise them in a particular way. And there's a lot of inherent tension there that could take a form of religious tension. It could take the form of you know, for things in my family was like do you get to drive with other kids to the school dance? You have to get your parents Trump you off we made fun of. Yeah. I had a particularly bad couple years in a school in Cleveland and middle school. And what was funny there is you know, it was a double. Emme because we I was indian-american in school without too much diversity. But we actually we lived in Cleveland for seven years for my first seven years, we moved to Paris France for three years when my parents have decided they wanted to become immigrants again and try it out. And then we moved back from Paris once they realized sexually not easy to become French. But it is pretty easy to become American. There's a difference injuries. When we got back, and I went to this new school. Not only was I ended American kid in this kind of mostly white world. But I was also like we're just returned from France, speaking, French, and I, you know, my mother wants hurt herself. I think in that school when she came in for a meeting referred to as the French lady. Right. And it was just a a reminder of how mind blowing it was for a lot of people in that very placid relatively kind of monocultural world of shaker heights, Ohio to process people who are not only Brown, but it just come back from France all of us would kind of yawn at that today in the world that we're now in so. I was very badly bullied in that particular school for a year and a half. It's really interesting. I look back and I've thought about it in a while. But the way we thought about that problem at the time. I remember was interpersonal maybe there was something. I was doing maybe those this person was doing to that person was doing it. And I think we didn't have the language for understanding it as a systematic thing. One a lot of people have kind of studied and talked about this kind of issue bullying, but to the cultural element of it not being easy to be different. Was it really more difficult to acclimate in France than it was in the United States? There was an opportunity came up from my dad in France within his company to transfer. And so he took it and we had this amazing adventure. We had so much fun as a family. I mean, I my dad and I ever Saturday morning would go on a little walk to the largely and get a bread and pastries to the family, and I would walk all around the city. It was just it was an amazing life. If we had there. But I think my parents as adults realized very quickly that maybe in their mind. Having had a pretty easy run immigration and assimilation into Cleveland, Ohio. And they realized very quickly that France was on America. And they realized that they were welcome guests. But they when they would never become French. Why? So this gets to the question of in a moment when it's easy to be down in America. And I think that many things to be down about I think America has a lot of things that it needs to look at itself and look in the mirror and see and fix. But there's something strawberries extraordinarily special in the DNA this country that does at its best in theory say that anybody can become American, and they're actually not that many countries that genuinely believed that does America leave people out of that. Yes. Does it fail to live up to that? Yes. Is there an entire black exception to that story? That's a four hundred year story. Yes. But I think to only talk of those things and not talk about the remarkable way in which frankly, I mean, I've traveled around the world to know that when I go to Europe and people ask me where I'm from. And I say the United States, there's this kind of people don't believe me. Right. And here the people don't believe me are like racist fringe people. Right. But it it does not blow anybody's mind that. I'm American in America in India, it blows people's mind. Yes. So it's easy to be down on this country. But at its best this country actually believes in a post identity concept of an American it, it inferior believes anybody can be this thing. Again, a lot of work to do to actually live up to that. But I've been to a lot of places in the world that don't even have that as an ideal. And it's an extraordinary ideal as you were growing up. You would ritualistically watch the Sunday morning political talk shows. Your family, and you described it as such. We parse argued in jeered at the screen is national figures delivered careful poll tested talking points. What do you to these shows at an age when most kids at that age were playing video games or playing ball in the street? Maybe I should have been doing those things could have helped with the bullying. What's funny is I now working for MSNBC? We still always watch NBC meet the press. I now like on air with people who I don't really wanna tell that. I used to watch you when I was fourteen and fifteen and like used to be a celebrity cool. Yeah. We were living in Washington at the time. We'd moved from you know, so it was the Cleveland Peres back to Cleveland for a little bit. And then Washington where I spent most of middle school and high school. And so, you know, the sport of Washington is politics. It's in the air, you go to certain restaurants. You'll see, you know, political figures there, you know, a lot of politicians children in my in my school. You went to sit. Well, I went to sit. Well, you know, Chelsea Clinton was out of the Obama girls with it. You know, it was it was an unavoidable part of the atmosphere in in my childhood there. And so those shows were like, I just I don't know. I just love them. It's funny. Like some of those shows that I'm now on I understand how much of a game. It is now for a lot of people. Go. On these politicians who go on and kind of say nothing at great length. But it was just fascinating to me. And I think I think for me. It had something to do with. Also, my own journey of thinking about what it means to be an American, and I think from my parents that was one set of things around hard work, and like making it work as an immigrant, and that had to do with a lot of practical things because that was their burden that was not my burden because they took care of it. And so I think my burden had a lot more to do with trying to understand this.

America India Cleveland Ohio United States France Debbie millman MSNBC writer middle school International Herald Tribune Kebbi Midland murder Donald Trump editor New York magazine Mumbai India shaker heights Washington
Why a suburb's integrated schools are still failing black students

Post Reports

27:44 min | 10 months ago

Why a suburb's integrated schools are still failing black students

"This post reports podcast is sponsored by fidelity financial planning that moves with your life learn more at fidelity dot com slash your goals fidelity brokerage services number NYSE IPC from the newsroom of the Washington Post Robert Samuels from the Washington Post this achievement gap it doesn't really matter what particular metric you WanNa focus on you see these really big achievement gaps in kindergarten. It's Friday October eleven today why a suburb with a long history of good intentions is still feeling it's black students a few years what happened in Shaker is that some really committed people who lived in the first neighborhood which is called ludlow decided that rather than having to sell it us up this history but then as the years went on I started hearing more and more about something that I had noticed myself in high school which was and how Jane Fonda is trying to tone for older generations so let's start with your name and your title I'm Laura Progressive Attitudes Want to try to make their community as good as it can be and what is Shaker Heights history with integration is that the schools integrated themselves there were still an imbalance in elementary schools in terms of certain schools being overwhelmingly African American and suburbs were being developed in the fifties in this country for a long time had a reputation for being quite wealthy her some houses in Shaker that are true mansions and it's a beautiful place they have beautiful homes and excellent schools and it's sort of how people viewed the ideal of a suburb especially as there's overwhelmingly white and they created a voluntary busing system which integrated the schools and that made Shakur real national leader when it came to integration other places where fighting integration and uh-huh national education writer for The Washington Post. Can you describe to me what Shaker Heights Ohio is like Shaker Heights a suburb it's just east of Cleveland going to court to stop it and Shaker they were voluntarily creating their own program so if that was all happening in the fifties and sixties why did you decide that you wanted to back now to talk about integration in Shaker Heights so I grew up knowing all about this history and that was always a point of pride for me being from Shaker Heights largely being in panicking and leaving they wanted to preserve their community and they wanted to preserve it as an integrated community and they formed a Community Association and the purpose of the associates they're also more modest homes more of middle class neighborhoods and that's where I grew up I grew up in Shaker heights and lived there for my whole childhood you find people there who have really hanging in the nineteen fifties which happened a lot of places but whereas in many places that quickly led to white flight where neighborhoods just turned over in a matter of Shen was to encourage white people to stay even as black people were moving in and they did a lot of things to try to make that happen then in nineteen seventy was a really important time in Shaker Heights sugar hits a fascinating history with Immigration Baker and third grade sixth grade here's one from ninth grade the percent of ninth graders who were scoring proficient or higher on their English assessments at the end of the year occasion something I don't ever remember not knowing about which is that when you know it used to be an all white community and then the first black families started moving have the advantage of a forward looking school program that's really part of the Hallway Shaker has always viewed itself bigger has been willing to experiment with promising new ideas and about half black kids ninety five percent of white kids and you can see the gap in AP classes just by looking at these numbers to you know there are eighty two percent of white students in the eleventh grade last year took at least one AP class among black students it was forty five percent it's reflected at every grade level from kindergarten and why this was why is it that in a community that really cares about these issues that's trying hard that wants diversity embraces Third Grade Sixth Grade Ninth Grade Whenever you look at you will see these gaps so I was interested in they're not as someone whose parents live there but as a reporter to see what's going on there what's happening and why are they not able to essentially versity why are there still such profound achievement gaps between white and black students so as interested in going back to ticker heights not as someone who grew up Michael This problem so tell me what that reporting process was like he just like went back to your old high school and started talking to people some of that I talked to close to one hundred people before I was done and so I talked to people who teachers and administrators and students at the high school today to get their take on it from a you know a conversation that was different right school last year she was junior and she was in ap English class she's one of a handful of black kids in her AP English Class I love writing I tried to get all perspectives tell me where you feel things are right now only two years ago we have the equity assignment the teacher spoke to her about it in a way that was really embarrassing to her she felt like other kids could hear the conversation other students also they also didn't have finish me like where have you gone to share your schools your whole life where we born to tell me you're sorry so I was born here in Cleveland and live in McDowell is a senior and did you hear that from other students this idea that they just didn't feel supported and trying to take ap classes and they just felt kind of alone yeah I heard a mix of reactions I talked to some kids really high achieving kids the one I might have had when I was in school you talked to one student named Olivia McDowell tell me about her story so according to The Washington Post says he knows and the small group discussion was asked to talk about challenges in society and how does that relate to our lives and suddenly this one girl just and for both her and for the district yeah it was it was going fine until one day we have to sa she found herself falling behind at the beginning of class she didn't have any like there are sort of falling through the cracks I was sitting in one class just listening it was a conversation an English class about a memoir written by an Iranian woman that was really striking to me was that I- sable to watch a video of this meeting I wasn't there but last November there was a community meeting her leg is shaking she wants to get up her mom told her don't you get up on that stage whatever you do but she just could not hold that and she just escaped from receipt locked up onto the stage it keeps in mind no one was walking onto the stage you know this was not an open forum and she just walked up took the microphone from the principals hand and said you know I'm the I'm the oh by an equitable and high quality educational experience for all students so Livia sitting in the auditorium while there's all the swirling around her and she's just hard to be one of only a few black kids in an AP class and you need to keep that in mind teaching the word being one of three or four minorities and it Kinda just felt like oh I'm not supposed to be here that's kind of what it just felt like I'm in honors. AP I did and so I was in AP for literally one day and it was an honors English and been treated fairly by the district in regards to the situation that Libya is a lot of work that we need to do as a community in order to make sure that we personal experience so I followed her out of that class and wanted to hear more from her about what her experience was so what are you in you just you know you get the sense he's or the kids who can do anything we're looking at the next you know senator from Ohio and then you look at other kids who very much conflict here between the impression that Shaker Heights has of itself as this bastion of diversity and a place that's conversation because it started like it was getting kind of personal that ended up becoming a big controversy over the course of last year in terms of how the teacher handled it how the district handle that one actually bike wannabe writer so that's why I decided to go for AP IB English and there was a day last September that turned out to be really important said she had tried ap English but she lasted more than a day she just went for a day and then she dried decided to drop back down I just felt really kind of uncomfortable really taking active strides towards trying to encourage immigration and the things that people say happen that may not be explicit racism all the time but that are still affecting the way that non white people are able to succeed in this community yeah I think that's something Shaker struggling me and she dropped out before she could even like take test or turning into Simon or have anyone even have the opportunity to tell her like maybe oh you guys are talking about Bashar Education and you know you're all worried about the teacher and impact there is a big economic racial wealth gap so the white people live in Shaker are far wealthier and have far more education themselves than most of the plus also what I noticed and she didn't really seem to them but when it came down to me the person sitting next to me even told me like she put in headphones because she didn't want to hear that with the person who's in charge of data for the district put it to me this way so that any time you look at our numbers by race we look like two different districts and I think part of that is driven by the fact that out of the teachers who were assembled worried about the teacher because she had been disciplined in a questionable way about Jesus the ice on that day were fantastic she was just really seemed on top of that you know they need to find a way to make sure these kids don't slip through the cracks and that's essentially I think what happened with her African American families who live in Shaker obviously not all of them but I'm talking about average is here so as is true everywhere when you have kids from families with of tracking at Shaker a lot of leveling so kids get pulled out for enrichment courses as young as fourth grade kids are being pulled into enrichment and it was because the lack of diversity what that was my Nina she asks you why now she said I want to see now she's an honors and there's nothing wrong with being an honors but with a little push could she have made it into ap you know maybe so so then it seems that there's like this real okay maybe I it hasn't happened bias training for new instructional staff so they haven't solved these problems but they haven't given up so then what is the up said you know it's just like what we have in Shaker with this divide with not a lot of black kids taking AP classes and she starts talking about this and she was a black girl talking about this from her single parents parents who don't have as much time in the day perhaps to spend with their kids kids who didn't have strong preschool program all of the things that classes ap classes or stuff like that exactly it starts out right from the beginning and the way that those enrichment programs are created the way they did back to take more advanced programs throughout their whole education and that kids who don't have opportunity stick classes earlier on end up being in lower tier rich and she didn't say why do you much the reason I ask is because the school is supposedly trying to encourage more boxes to take it in recent years there was a superintendent who made equity the centerpiece of his administration began the Equity Task Force they now have an equity policy they do implicit it and it was actually called about something else but no one wanted to talk about that other thing everyone really wanted to talk about this controversy that was about the teacher and whether she had nobody has succeeded in closing the achievement gap especially when you have such a large economic gap that goes with the racial achievement gap but some of the things they're doing I have the nation's and there may be some implicit bias on the part of teachers there too and there was another factor too which is that there were sort of this unstated system where apparent wanted I'm not prepared for this class she did and I think one of the things that Shakur is realizing as it when they have a kid like this and I'm telling you this was like as smart bright kid or contribution Lucien and is there any hope for the near term future that the gravity of this achievement gap is going to start to lessen sided who would go to enrichment was they did it through a test and the test scores there was a racial gap in what the results were from the test scores they're also teacher me so what so you went for one day yes and did you tell who did you tell you wanted to switch my counselor I said I I really want to switch out of here and I didn't tell all kids back is sort of falling disproportionately on African American students they're coming in less prepared and then quickly what happens is that there's a lot their kid to be in the advanced class in honors or AP orange enrichment whatever it might have been at that level they could go and ask for it is full of people who care black people white people who are trying and who want to make this better and they don't all agree exactly the best way to do it but I think the doc are people who have been trying for fifty years to deal with these issues and they still have this huge achievement gap why haven't they made more progress I think that they are gonNa make some improvements at least on the margins I don't know if it will close the achievement gap and I don't know if any to many aren't and came away from reporting the story feeling like you know Shaker is not the place that I thought it was growing up it's not someplace awesome what about who suited would there was one of three to five in their cost over what's on your list of financial goals buying a new house strengthening you're retired along with photos and videos at post reports dot com what I thought it was growing up is a lot more complicated as lot harder a lot of people were not having an are not having the seem completely positive academic experience the potential to get at it but you know it's going to take a lot of work going to take a lot of work this is a place that isn't exactly that I did and you know no doubt because I'm white and while lots of black kids are having great experiences you know unfortunately services offered for a fee by fidelity personal workplace advisors LLC and brokerage services provided by fidelity brokerage services LLC so tell me that has raised figured out you know maybe nowhere has raised figure it out but they don't have it figured out that's for sure but while it was depressing in one sense incredible movie career she has two Academy Awards she has seven Golden Globes she's deservedly famous actress and don't forget that she's like an aerobics so as frustrating in that respect but yeah they haven't figured it out this isn't done but they're still trying they still care that place Mansa the century but I thought we were normal I thought we were like everybody else this life she's had an about about aerobic exercise along with millions and millions of other people it plan all of the above whatever you're saving for fidelity personalized planning and advice can help you reach those goals with digital planning plus one on one personal coaching all with low transparent pricing to learn more visit fidelity dot com slash your goals or call one eight hundred three four three three five four eight mogul that she had this whole series of aerobics videos that came out in the eighties ready to the workout she made these phenomenally successful videos get one like you wanna grab someone around the throat and say why hasn't this worked we you guys care why hasn't this why haven't you had more success for apparent asked for it they could get it but this was sort of an unspoken thing and you had to know that you could ask so that's one of the factors and I think it's something they've taken on nat accelerates as the kids get older the once you put a kid even if they're in an elementary school and to put a kid in some kind of gifted program than they are kind of on a track Dan where do we know Jane Fonda from where we know her most recently from her television series grace and Franky so we didn't have the realized what was happening and that this was barreling at us like an engine and she looked around and people weren't `having appropriately it's so traumatized her that she stopped speaking and eating and when I read that it rocked me because I knew going to get arrested every Friday but we need to drill deep so every night before every Thursday night at the office stand more about the military and climate change how climate change especially affects women's really interesting that Greta had seen the truth and and I thought it just the urgency came in why she's become more interested in climate change she's already been some demonstrations about this and Seattle and Vancouver but now she turn down an interview with Jane Fonda no definitely not so would you like me to tell you what I'm doing a call from someone representing Jane Fonda and he said Jane Fonda wanted to come and talk to us by clients and I said sure so she came in is still a place that's trying Laura mettler is a national education reporter for the Post you can find a link to Laura's story on Shaker Heights Ohio and now she's planning to bring her act to the steps of the Capitol in a bit of political theater I guess you could call it and the green new deal what go into detail about the green new deal and oceans and forests and freshwater and and mass migration I got to not completes the level that they do but they're still all right some of this is really hard it's really Greenpeace at seven o'clock at night we're going to have a digital livestream teach in this is an important feature of her plan is to have an online nation and health and all these different issues are going to be fourteen Fridays and and then we take questions from the audience DC and I'm going to have a rally every Friday like Reta and it'll be call fire drill Friday and and we're going to engage in civil disobedience it also a way to focus attention on the climate issue this is Stephen Mason he writes about climate change for the post and a few weeks ago he discussion about some of the issues of climate change and not just make this a shouting match but to turn it into a sort of an educational opportunity as well because we have to and I believe the Capitol Police have done this a few times they ask you to leave and if you don't leave after the third time they can arrest you and what does she think that she in my DNA the way it hasn't before so she said that helped inspire her to want to do something herself so what is she going to be doing she put her little doing something at a time when Congress hasn't really done much of anything on the climate front and the trump administration has pulled back from the Paris will achieve by getting arrested on the steps of the Capitol every Friday for fourteen weeks why think she's hoping to do a lot of the same things at one point she went to North Vietnam and the North Vietnamese took her to an anti aircraft battery the photographs of her then became a major issue do she was nicknamed Hanoi Jane and she later apologized and said that she did not intend to cause any pain for and she's GonNa get arrested that's her plan that's the plan apparently not as difficult as you think to get arrested in front of the Capitol Jane Fonda as the Renton Berg of the octogenarian set she's someone who can try to do something after so many years initiative do that will get herself arrested she's going to walk on the steps she's going to be carrying placards with at least a handful of other people and any body on the line in front of the Swedish parliament okay I'm GonNa take my body which is kind of famous and popular right now because the series and I'm GonNa go to the cool issue of the day is and I wonder if that's something that she's had to deal with in terms of trying to use her platform to bring attention to big things born issues I think Steve Must Send writes about climate change for the post on Friday morning state's Joe Stiglitz is a fairly left wing Nobel prize winning Columbia University economist and so she's thought about that automation see if we have no what was happening thirty years ago the transition could have been of that generation not doing doing much of anything in the way to to curb climate change I think what's interesting about her history evacuate yes she was an a very supportive of the Black Panthers and she was also very involved in antiwar protests in the late sixties and early seventies students have done and there are kind of more vigorous protests around the world which is to draw attention to climate change to try to Push Congress and that she wants to take a stand on this yeah she expects to turn eighty two on the steps of the Capitol in December while getting arrested so activism especially of late has really come from young people like super young people like people in middle school and high school and so it's interesting that Jane Fonda who I believe is in her eighties is is that in some ways I think that people can sort of ungenerously look at it as Jane Fonda kind of a Dilettante for whatever the like prince as she later made a movie coming home about the pain that veterans have as they came back from Vietnam one thing that we've seen is that a lot of climate that's interesting I mean Greta Timberg part of her whole argument is that the older generation has failed so in a way it's it's useful to missile moderate what we were lied to hoodwink other fossil fuel lenses trace on the east side of the Capitol she was arrested by US Capitol police and taken away and handcuffs limit a quarter of two thousand fifteen and said it was going to withdraw from that and she actually has this whole long history of being an activist on other things for fidelity personalized planning advice can help you reach those goals with digital planning plus one on one personal coaching all with low transparent pricing and founder arrived at the US Capitol and gave a speech to a group of protesters get is too late for moderation too late read this piece Naomi Klein Book which describes a sort of profile Sim bankrupted Tonsberg and so she was studying climate change and when she into believing that the earth was hours to endlessly exploit without consequence then Jane Fonda attempted to climb up the steps well I think that she wants to use her fame as a platform you can really ineffective activists when you have a hit TV and what's on your list of financial goals buying a new house strengthening your retirement plan all of the above whatever your savings I'm Martin powers we'll be back on Monday with more stories from the Washington Post Yeah that's it for today show to learn more visit fidelity dot com slash your goals or call one 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The Adaptation

Little Fires Everywhere - The Official Podcast

32:40 min | 4 months ago

The Adaptation

"Uh-huh! Hi everybody and welcome to little fires everywhere the official podcast you're formal safe-space to learn analyzing decompressed after every new episode of Little Fires Everywhere Airs on Hulu My name's Jamie Loftus I am normally the host of Iheart. cast in my urine Mensa, but for this series I'm going to be your tour guide through little fires everywhere along with the show's showrunner executive producer and head writer. The wonderful Liz Taylor lose was handpicked for this project after a successful career as a TV, writer and producer can't such. Such projects as brothers and sisters life unexpected once upon a time Nashville and casual, no big deal before being chosen to be the heart and soul of little fires, everywhere but I. I would be remiss if I did not mention that this podcast is after the first three episodes of little fires everywhere airs on Hulu, so if you're not caught up just a warning, there's going to be spoilers for those first three episodes in the PODCAST, so don't ask me if you didn't listen now today for our first. Of little fires everywhere at the official PODCAST, I wanted to explore the idea of adaptation, because making a really good adaptation takes a lot of great people working at the very very top of their game. So how do you turn a well loved novel into an Amazing Drama Series starring? Two of the most talented actresses of their generation res whether Tuning Kerry Washington. It's totally easy. Easy. You guys. I'm kidding, but you know we're going to find that out today. We're going to get to know Liz. tickle are even better in a bit but today I wanNa, take you from page to screen the old fashioned way, so we're gonNA start at the page. Listen I got a chance to speak to the woman who started it. All Celeste ing published little fires. In two thousand, seventeen, based on her own experience, growing up in Shaker Heights. The book was universally praised by readers and critics alike not only for its complicated dual protagonists, Mia, warrant and Elena Richardson but for the sheer volume of controversial topics at dealt with with nuance and grace topics like class and motherhood in the very rarely discussed shades of gray on both sides of the interracial adoption process. The book absolutely captured readers, and inspired Laura New stadler a producer at reese witherspoon production company Hello Sunshine to get this whole page to screen process started, and we will be talking to you about that later in the episode, but I live Celestin I talked about seeing your work. Come to life expanded on characters and ideas for the screen and more. Let's take a listen. So Celeste for calling in I wanted to start with you. Have you ever had something of years? Adapt to the screen before, and is it ever something that's like in your mind as you're writing like I wonder what this would look like onscreen or I wonder who would play Elena or MEA, or or so on? No, this is the first writing project of mine that have had adapted dot it when I'm writing I'm basically trying to fool myself into thinking that nobody will ever read what I write because otherwise I'm too nervous. Nervous to get it down, so the thought of adaptation or somebody else taking what I had in making thing new is never something that crossed. My mind got it and and Liz. At what point in this process did you come in? My understanding is you were introduced to this project by Lauren New Stadler at recess production company Hello Sunshine and raise it already Gotten Carrie Washington signed on by the time you were brought in so basically. You Know Celeste Book Loren Loren got it to res. Res Loved it got it to Kerry. Kerry wanted to play Mia. And then once it was at that point, they needed a writer so eventually Lauren sent it to me and said You know you've twenty four hours to read this and if you want it years. Pending, Seles approval and I read it and I loved it and. You know there were just so many points of connectivity for me in reading it, and also, there were just moments that. I just felt such waves of emotion. Well up in me. sloughed is such a beautiful writer in and I just felt like. I don't know this gift had kinda fallen into my lap and I was like. Yes, I've said before I felt like. There was the book and then recent carrier signed on to be in it, which is like the icing on the cake, but that's not really icing on the cake. Those are like two separate cakes, and so it was like someone's like here's three cakes and I'm like Oh my God. Amazing! How did this happen? I've like the book. Andrews and Kerry and so. And I didn't really have to do anything to get the job, and so it was, it was amazing and then it was great, because then we met, and we all met in a group, but less than I really got to talk, and I was able to say from reading the book. You know what I might do, an adaptation that was like taking what was in the book, and then even getting to expand out on that and the great part was that I knew we were gonNA have eight episodes to take all those things and expand them out in these episodes, so felt really. Great from the START I've said about Celeste the whole time like I would imagine anyone who writes a book like this feels extremely close to the material, obviously there humongous personal elements in this book. Let alone just based on the place that you. Grew up and came of age, and so I think to give it over so generously in so freely with so much trust obviously spoke to the level of trust she had with recent Kerry, but also it meant that she had a lot of trust for me, and for the writing staff I put together, and it gave us a lot of freedom to not feel handcuffed by the. The material, but at the same time we all love the material so much I mean. When Seles came to sat, she said there everyone had like their dog-eared copies of the book. You know. Everyone wanted her to sign their book. Everyone had dog eared copies of the book. Everyone had highlighted passages. This was a book that was beloved. is beloved and so I think that We didn't want to honor the book because I had to. We wanted to honor the book because we wanted to honor the book. Because we all love the book. Yeah, and that was that was so clear from the beginning, and you made it very easy for me to trust you really from the beginning when you came to me and we're like unthinking Abou- taking this character and kind of extending her in this way or in thinking about this character might be exploring this in one of her plotlines. It was such a such a relief for me because I again thought. Oh are things that I wanted to do other things that you thought of I wouldn't have an I I still just love it because I felt like they were always true to the characters, and they were always rooted in the themes of the book, and I feel like that's been true at every step of the process that there's been such sort of love and respect for the book, and that's what allows this. This series to kind of take the book and move it in a very slightly different direction, it's always been really firmly rooted in like such a deep respect for the book, and as as an author that's it's a huge feels like a compliment to me, but it also feels really reassuring it kind of gives me if you're gonNA. Go I trust. You do what you will because I. Know that you're going to do something that will be faithful to the disorder. Solve this the. And Celeste you mentioned things you thought about doing in the book, but didn't Could you give us an example of something? The show did get to do that. You didn't have a real estate for in the book. Yeah, so I mean right up front. Something that I. Sort of wanted to explore in the book, but everyone in the show was able to explain a different way. Was Niyaz ethnicity obviously casting Kerry as MIA carries a black woman changes? What's in the book? Because in that FILC MEA is not specifically marked, but I I wrote her thinking of a working class white woman, but I wanted to make. Make her person of color originally I had thought that that would be another way of exploring these issues of race and class and religious privilege power. But I didn't think that I could write. A black woman's experience I didn't want to presume that I could imagine fully what that was like and so I wrote the character of MEA as a white woman. And I was really happy. When reese and Lauren community. We're thinking of casting Kerry because it meant that they were seeing the same themes in the book, and that they were willing to kind of lean into that and explore those up front, and so carries casting, obviously brings that rate into the forefront of the story frame and diversity of perspective is an important part of this show on screen, and off with the production staff, so yeah, so Celeste what was your impression of the writing team on the show you visited the writer's room during production. Right? Yeah! I think the room that you put together with so diverse, not just in terms of race, but in terms of background in terms of experience and I think it really showed when I was reading the scripts, and then when I got to see them on screen that there is such a level of nuance understanding I remember you saying at one point that it not like any everybody in the room brought one thing. Everybody in the room brought like five things. Yeah, and it shows because these are really complex intersections of all kinds of different life situations about the race in the class, and all kinds of different intersections of all of those different sort of privileges in struggles. It does and I think when I got to come to the room to. It was really fascinating to see people say well. This was my experience like hold on wait. Okay, what about this? When you're saying this? You know that's really different and to kind of be able to look at an issue for many many different perspectives. Even that's what gives these complicated moments in the show a lot of their power. We're not. Being flat here. Everybody is kind of being given many sort of different facets. That shouldn't be wearing TV, but sometimes it is, and it's really beautifully done. That's so cool. Did did it make you WANNA be in writers rooms. I I WANNA be a fly on the wall and the writer's Room I learned so much as a writer because as a novelist. It's really just I'm here in my office and I'm alone right now. Right and I get to kind of decide stuff and I can scrap stuff and I can make decisions I make many bad decisions, and there's nobody to stop me. So. I really enjoyed seeing that kind of collaborative process. I don't know if I could do it because I feel like I feel like it's. It's such a skill to be able to talk those things out, whereas my usual method is I, just sit there and stare my computer screen and kind of inadvertently make faces like target my hair, and then eventually maybe I come up with an idea. But it gave me a new way of thinking about how to approach plot and character seeing the way that. The Room was really thinking about arc and thinking about okay. What is each character's? Over the course of the entire show? There's this giant rainbow colored chart up on the wall, which I took a picture of his inspiration for myself. about how to kind of keep each of those threads there and make sure that nobody else through the wayside I mean that was a whole different way of storytelling, and so if I could just kind of quietly eavesdropped on on you know every writers in the world that would be that would be the best. ME, do. Pretty, well, it's really been. I think charmed experience. I mean every interview they're like. How did it go? Did you get re defended and I always feel like there's a secret part where people sort of hope that I'll say with horrible as that would be A. Juicy story but the truth is that I feel like everyone working on this production. really came to the book with such respect and yet also with such energy, and so many ideas of how to translate it to the screen, and it was this sort of really charmed experience where I feel like. It's set a really high bar for whatever I work on in the future that I'm GonNa kind of expect this level of serve love for the book and this kind of synergy to happen but it's it's. It hurt example to follow because. Everybody did seem to be bringing their a game and. It it seems to just clicked together in a really beautiful way. Yeah, I felt so you know across the board. I felt like there was just so much passion and heart and it felt. You know. Look it was it was a privileged to get to go into a writer's room and to be able to talk about things that felt so vital. You know you don't sit around. Especially as A white person in everyday life, talking about race and class very often you don't. You're not forced to kind of confront what you think and you have the luxury of not thinking about it, sometimes, probably most of the time, and so to go into a room where? Data our task and then to also talk about through the Lens of Motherhood when a lot of us are mothers I? Think it just. It felt. It felt important in a way where I. Don't mean like the work is so important in the show is so important, although certainly they are to me and I hope they will be to others. I mean to say that I think the experience of doing the work felt so important, and I think the other part of it and I hope one of the reasons that it went so well and I believe this is that. Most of us are MOMS. You know MOMS. Know How to do a bunch of things, but many of which which are be efficient. Collaborate. And Take Care of something you love and those qualities. Think are. Are. Part of what made this such a great experience so I hadn't I hadn't thought about it that way. That I thinking that you know if there's a parenting lesson in the book and then certainly is not intended to be any kind of parenting manual in any way. I don't want to pretend I have any answers. I love there in the book, but I do think you know one of the things I. Think a lot about, and that works its way into my rating. Is this idea that your child is a separate being? Being from you and that, even when you maybe want a particular thing for them for very very good reasons a lot of times, you have to recognize that. Maybe that's not what they need. And you have to give them the space to get what they need and to figure out who they are and I think there is a parallel there certainly for me in thinking about here's this book, which is my baby, one of my babies, but I'm going to let it go out and grow up. Insists something else right? And I think that's sharing sharing responsibility, which is sort of like sports. You I'm going. Push you in the ways that I think you need, but if it seems like you need something else, I'm also going to respect that, and that was the attitude that I think everybody working on this production that I've talked to had they had ideas and visions for wanted to. To Go, and then if they saw that, that wasn't quite right, they were willing to course. Adjust and listen to the project the way I guess that you hopefully listened to your child as they start to grow up until you who they are, and what they need I thought about it like that, but it's actually pretty good analogy absolutely I know and I I. I even felt that way from script form into production into editing, and now on the cusp of kind of having it out in the world like I. Felt those moments to and there is. There's a beautiful Mary Oliver Quote, which I won't even be able to say the whole thing, but it has to do with like to live in this world you have to. To do three things and one of the things I think is holding fiercely to what's yours or what you love the most, and then when the time comes knowing when you have to let it go and I do feel like and I mean it racks me of course I have now heard the quote. the quote in its in its its rightful place. And I think that there is something about this similar, I know the writers felt that way when they wrote their scripts and even just give them to me. I know I felt that way, and in giving it over to and I'm sure. Of course you felt that way. Celeste and I think that that is A. I think that that is in our in our best as parents or mothers that you can see something kind of getting its legs and taking shape in being what it's going to become. Then helping, guide it to become that without getting in its way and I think that i. I think part of the reason. This experience has been so so great is because of because of the motherhood aspect, both in the story in both in the people who have who have brought it to life Celeste, first and foremost. It's sort of recognizing that you are a big influence, but one of the influences on this thing and this things life, and then also giving it the space to become what it's going to be Even if that wasn't what you thought, it was GONNA be originally. Yeah, yeah, totally I was in awe of the enormous numbers of people working on this project because this is my first experience in film, but seeing everybody kind of click in. Everybody's got their own job and everybody's got their own particular visions, but there's this moment we're all the gears kind of click the click. And they all turn a bunch, and it was pretty amazing to watch again as novelist. It's usually just me and so to get to see that kind of collaboration and that kind of collaboration. Working really well was was pretty. That was Celeste ing, we will be hearing more from our next episode. Speaking on her experience growing up in the real life. Shaker Heights Ohio in the nineties. So now you know worthy page screen process begins and from here. Liz, Taylor becomes absolutely critical to the project. A show runner is. They run the show involved in every facet in a creative sense, and they become the spiritual center of the project itself at every phase of production, and for a show like little fires everywhere, this was no small pressure, but Liz as you're about to hear, had more than enough heart and determination and talent to make this show something truly special. So what you're about to hear is an interview. From the second time we ever met, so you will be able to hear me actively developing a friend crush on her. Island. How are you good? How are good good just to start things out? What I'm really curious about is adapting such a well loved work. You go into this process knowing some basic adaptation changes you want you have your two leads, and then you're building your riders. So what were you looking for? And how did you sort of build this team? So I knew it was really important to me that the region landscape of the. Writers of the room matched the book because I felt like. That's the only way that we're going to be able to encompass all the voices of the book an accurately tell the story, and so that's what I focused on putting together, but of course as I focused on doing that. I kept meeting with people in every time I met with somebody I felt like they would be perfect for the show. And how could I do the show without them? And so, what was going to be a maybe three person staff, or maybe four and? Seven person staff because I just felt like I couldn't live without anybody I actually wanted an eighth raider, but there weren't enough episodes I knew I wanted mothers in that upper level position. I knew I wanted not that I wasn't open to men, but it's a story about mothers and I felt like who better to tell it, then mother's. and so that was really what my hopes were for assembling the room I ended up with these wonderful writers half of which I had worked with before, and then half of which were new to me and we did hire one Guy Harris Dano because human. Yes, he was joking. Man are token white man and he was incredible. ABC was like. Don't you want one man and I was like. Does it ruin the picture and then I'm like it doesn't need to ruin the picture, and if there's any man who should be in this room would thrive with all. All Women Harris and so we ended up just assembling the scrape room, and it was the best room I've ever been in in terms of what everybody had to offer from their own life perspective, and how everybody just cared so deeply about the material in different people advocated for different things at different times and carry included talking about like what do we want to say with these characters? We didn't want to imply that MIA. Only had an issue with Elena because she was white. We wanted to make it clear that it was the wealth and just the privilege and. And the lack of understanding somebody in a different position and this question of because you can afford to be a great parent. Does that actually make you a great parent? One of the things that I've really loved. We get these moments with Atlanta in MIA that we didn't get in the book. That means that we get recent. Carry on screen, which is what everybody wants. So. How did you approach those scenes? That's a good question I mean. We definitely said they have to be unseens together and they have to have a story that things off each other they. Kim Kim Silo D- into their own worlds and not cross. Because like you're saying they are, relationship is are in some ways love hate story of you know of the of the series, so they're the couple that were the most interested in sure and I think that meant moving up a lot of things in terms of structure I knew I wanted to have mia in that house or agreeing to be in that house by the end of the pilot because I felt like that launched. What they're dynamic was going to right, and then to find moments. That felt really truthful. I think in episode two. We talked a lot about how does MIA really feel about Elena? And when is she truthful? And when is she playing a game and and I say playing a game, but really what I mean is doing what she needs to do to not have. Her secrets revealed into key right. You know to keep Elena basically off her trail. It's her walking this line between setting her boundaries, but not having Elena. Raised about her, and then if it is having to figure out how to diffuse the situation and got a lane feeling okay again until it gets combative and hostile between we are very truthful moments. Listen I had so much more to talk about, but we don't want to give too much away. so to close out this first podcast episode. We're GONNA talk to the. Producer team, but a lot of stuff some of the pages screen elements, and about one of my favorite aspects of the little fires everywhere team, which is at the top level, it's all women which is a very very rare thing in the television business, or if you exist in the world in any business, so listen I are going to have a chat with Lauren new stature of Hello Sunshine Reese. Witherspoon production company and Pillar Simone of Simpson Street. Productions carry Washington's company. They along with res, Carry List and Director Lynn Shelton. Are the executive producers on little fires everywhere? So we're GONNA, talk about that and more. Let's take a listen. So Lorna Polar. Thank you so much for being here. Really talk about as the collaboration that happened on the production team. In this, it's I. Think one of the only shows I've ever seen that has all women at the top of the pecking order? Is this working on an all female producer team? Is that something that you had experienced before and yeah like? I imagine it only makes life easier so I love to hear. Love to hear everyone. Speak to that speaking from the Hello Sunshine side, I would say we strive for representation, and we WANNA. Make sure that there are always women in the conversation and at the front of the conversation. This team was a total Dream Team It was so carefully curated at every step, and I think we just became a family and we had so many conversations that were inspiring, so many conversations that were hard so many conversations that were really about. How do we tell the story in the best way and the most thoughtful? Thoughtful Way and the most authentic way, and I think without every member of the team. We could never have done what we did I. Mean saying Color from my point of view. It was I grew up in the man's world on this in this business, so it was actually a really new experience to be working with all women, and it was amazing but it's different. It's definitely different when you have a bunch of women sitting down and trying to figure things out. It's more thoughtful. It's sometimes it's easier we laughed. We cried we. Dug in a different way as opposed to having a man, just come in and shut the data but it was super important to all of us, and we made sure every step of the way that we were including women and other diversity, and and just being really thoughtful in all of it and men. We always want men who did conversation because it wasn't about only having women in the conversation, it was just about it was about telling authentic representative stories, and this is really. Really one yeah, I mean. We made sure there was one man in the writer's room. We made sure that we were meeting. Male directors We had an amazing director Michael Weaver. who directed episodes two and three Liz brought him into the fold, and he became such an important part of our family zinc, Stewart, who directed six and seven was incredible as well we had. We had a great group of people and our production manager was a man which I think was really fun Brad. Love who had yet who was kind of like our dad? You know I mean when Brad walked on set, it was like. Go. Let's wrap it up. Don't WanNa make. It was kind of the our dad and GP's were incredibly brilliant man. Okay, so we have time for a tumor questions so I I wanted to ask. What was your involvement in the casting process where you know you go into this process nine. Okay, these are two leads. Let's build a family for them, and let's build a world around them Lauren. How did you know when you had found the family? We were intensely intimately involved. David Rubin are casting director is tremendous and we were intentional. About choosing these amazing kids who could really deliver the Ark of the performance and I think David was an amazing leader in doing not and then really and truly every single one of us. And Reese and Kerry were intimately involved in watching the tapes talking about it together, making sure that we brought kids back. If we didn't see something that we needed to see that we want to see because we knew where the character had to go, we really dug in I. mean all of these kids are so amazing? It is a dream. Come true, we. We also did. A bunch of chemistry reads know to make sure that they all worked well together, but I also think having racing carry kind of always be that last step to make sure as actresses that they saw in them as well, and these were the people that they wanted to be in scenes with every single day. Really really helpful That's so cool and we really wanted the kids to be the ages of real teenagers that we wanted them to the ages of the characters they were playing. We didn't WANNA like nine. Oh, two and You know with a bunch of twenty year, olds. We really wanted them to feel. Like authentic. Fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen eighteen year, olds and They do. Dad feels very they are. It's always so yet like cool. Slash almost jarring when you see someone who is the right age as a teenager playing a teenager? You're like yeah, that is what a teenager looks like. Okay last question I will make a quick after you know taking this whole journey with the story from start to finish Liz. What do you hope viewers takeaway from watching little fires everywhere I hope that they initially see themselves. And then I hope that. It leads them to examine themselves and what their initial biases or gut reactions were, and then how they critically think about them, having seen the rest of the show. I'd love it if people took that away. Cool Lauren! Mine is very similar. I think. When you watch the show, you will this really connect with a character and I would invite our audience to go on the full journey with the character that they viscerally connect with, and then afterwards honestly examined the assumptions that they made at the beginning, and the way that they feel at the end, and then really just take that away, and and walk into the world, and see the world through a slightly different Lens and maybe ask more questions. Maybe come with a little more curiosity and. Fewer assumptions because I think we all have an opportunity to grow and be a little bit better. I hope this show inspires everybody to do that. Cool and about you par- yeah. I made mine a similar I mean I think we just want everybody to go on a journey with these characters and their lives and I think that. We were all teenagers at one point We all have parents or parents at one point I think we all relate to. There's a colonel in all of this that we all relate to whether it's your relationship with your mother or your father or your boyfriend or your girlfriend There's insecurities. There's striving to be better so I think it's. It's really. Really digging deep and asking those questions of yourself, and then also just really having conversations with the people that are also watching it with you, and and talking about some of the issues that we bring up and also just having I mean just having a great time watching it, I mean yeah, it's so on I. was GonNa say it's on. Yes. Things you see it's really juicy, and it only gets juicier as the show goes on. Well, thank all three of you for making the time and coming into talk to us. Thank you. And I have heard from the executive producers and I hope that this episode gave you better idea of how an adaptation of a novel is brought to life Onscreen, but make no mistake. We have many many more people to talk to to get the full picture so for the next five weeks we'll be talking to actors. Composers writers, real people in Shaker Heights today, the artist behind me as working to show many many more, and of course more of the lovely list arc. Arc So week we're going to be exploring Shaker Heights Ohio inside and out, and in the meantime you watch new episodes of little fires everywhere on Hulu every Wednesday and listen to us here on little fires everywhere, the podcast every Thursday and remember to subscribe to us on Iheart. Apple PODCASTS spotify stitcher or wherever you get your podcast and be sure to follow at little. Fires Hulu on all platforms. My Name's Jimmy Lavdas and we'll see you next week in Shaker Heights.

writer Celeste ing Kerry Washington Liz Taylor Lauren Elena Richardson MIA Shaker Heights Hulu producer Shaker Heights Ohio executive director Lauren New Stadler official reese Loren Loren Seles Mia Liz.
Flashback

Little Fires Everywhere - The Official Podcast

31:47 min | 4 months ago

Flashback

"Hello and welcome back to another juicy behind the scenes episode of little fires everywhere the official podcast, the only place aspiring nine thousand nine hundred Shaka. Rights can get a full look at the heroic work going on behind the scenes on the Hulu drama series. We're all addicted to. I'm your co host Johnny Loftus? An who boy, if you're listening to this after watching episode one. Oh six. We have a lot to discuss so first of all spoilers whether we're talking about eighties, MIA and Elena or Mia and Elena there is a lot going on, and if you're not giving recent, carries reactions in everything at this point I don't know you today on the pod or going to be talking to a lot of incredible people, we'll be talking to production designer. Just tender who brought Alina has passed to life including rebuilding the nineteen eighties art scene in New York will also be speaking with Liz, tiller the little fires everywhere show runner, head, brighter and executive producer about building out this area of the shows world, but I I was so excited to sit down with the to fabulous actors who played the eighties era of Mea and Elena, tiffany, boone, and honest, severe rob respectively. I got a chance to sit down with them ahead of the little fires everywhere premier, and if you've seen the episode, you know that they are incredibly talented, but guess what they're also Super Nice. Here's a little bit of our conversation. O K, so if I, if you could both introduce yourself and just say your character name of you wonderful, and then we'll just start talking tiffany, boone and I play young Mia I'm. Rob And I play young. Elena Richardson Awesome. Okay, so honest Afia N. Tiffany M. so excited to have you both here. This episode is being released the same week that we have now both met both of you. and your back stories, so I guess I wanted to start with. What was your be? Because a lot, I mean there's some of the MIA story included in the book and none of the Elena story included in the book, So what we're? What we're both of your reactions to first reading. What happens to your character? Yes, the young Elena storyline. It felt so natural, though I think that's what I was. I wasn't surprised by that but I thought the off the writers such a beautiful job and turning this sort of like snippets of Elaine, I, think there's like there's a passage of her talking about her relationship with Izzy and we change it a little bit in the show to talk more about sort of a slightly like unwanted pregnancy, and then go deeper into that and I think they really it's A. It's such a different version of Elena, and we see hearst completely unraveled, and then half 'til like ravel herself back up, and so I think it's a really good opportunity to. Understand why she becomes the way she does, and her sort of like desperation to have control because she knows what will happen to her if she thinks about the things that she could have been for me, there's certain things that are tangled in my brain between the book and the script. As far as as far as their stories so but reading it, I was just like. So interested in exploring how MIA when she gets older becomes this tough person to break through to you know, and so to see all the challenges that she goes through, and it opens the audience up to like. Feel empathy for her finding out her back story, and that's interesting to me to be able to just read that and learned that in end to be able to bring that to life, and hopefully bring even more humanity to the characters, so that people can understand why she makes the choices she makes. That was just really interesting to me I. Mean you both do so so incredible when you see your performances transition? Transition into recent Carey I. Feel like it almost for me. Double down on, like wow. They really killed it. Because the the way that you both clearly took on the other actors mannerisms and their interpretation of the character, and you know, and not even just doing like a copy, paste of reason, carry, but like it. It just was so thoughtful and wonderful and I'm glad that it was edited in a way that. showed. What an amazing performance! Both of you gave thank you. Thank you I. was like I don't know when. You. So I I guess obviously that everyone is interested in is. How did you prepare to play younger versions of recent Kerry? What was the prep process for that for both of you for me I keep saying that. I feel like I had an. I'm sure you feel the same way to carry I've been a fan of hers for so long. You know like high have been offense before she like everyone knew who she was I watched her in the independent film called lift in like two thousand five and I would watch over and over again and I've been a fan ever. And like I think she's a very specific actress. She takes a part of herself to every single character, but then like changes, certain things, and so I've always watched her process so when we started working together, I had a conversation with her. About the way she looked at the character. And you know her thoughts on it and everything like that, and then for two or three weeks I was just onset, watching her scenes, and taking notes of her hand movements in her mouth, and how she moved her head, and but try not to mimic occurs much just like finding where the motivation for the stuff comes because I can just go in some. Some hand movements, or whatever, but I was trying to figure out like choices to carry would make about the character like at this moment she heard this line and she took it this way, and she thought of it this way, and so by the time we got to my first day of shooting I kind of felt like I didn't have to think I. Literally felt like I was thinking as Carey. She would think the character that makes any yeah so I. Really just thought of it is getting inside of carries brain in a really strange way just trying to live there for three weeks. That sounds really cool and really intense then. Yes yes, what about you on a severe weirdly similar? Actually yeah. Like been one of my idols for forever, I, am also a child actor, so I watched her movies when I was a kid, and and so I feel like I. watched her grow up and so like knowing her. mannerisms and her voice, and as soon as I got the audition I listened to her book on tape and I would just like listen to her voice, and her cadence and sort of lake came on set I would just sit at video, village and watch reese like I I had a bunch of conversations with her, and she said she's probably deferential to men, definitely like white privilege, and just in the sort of the intention -ality of how she speaks yeah. She made specific choices like definitely with his character and watching her where she would sort of squint, and it's like this judgment of like I'm judging you but I still in your best friend, right and. I remember reese saying I feel like Elena would join any club, but she'd have to be the president of that club. That was really helpful for all the scenes were she's really put together. Yeah, but then I was asking about I, was like I'm not a mom. What is it like to have mastitis? Have you had like had postpartum? Like what is this? And! She was just saying like. Just, your hormones, just being absolutely wild, and literally like if she was like. If anybody touch my baby I would I would scream at them and this sort of like explosiveness, and so watching her onset listening to our voice, she also recorded her lines. The my my lines for me because I wanted to hear. Well I was just like. I don't want to stop. You. Know was like. I might as well just ask and see if she and she did and I was like. This is absolutely amazing, so. Crazy like I felt like I would watch really creepy amount. Did you feel that way? Tiffany like I felt like I was just like shadowing her every move listening to her voice, watching her face constantly trying to be respectful, but I'm just trying to do. My job is like. Professional. Creep. Ism I feel like a lot of times. I would like not even tell Carrie, when I was onset I. Dunno somebody else would. Just like I would never say I wouldn't even say hi to her. I just show up watch and leaves in that. Be It because I also didn't want her to feel like she was being watched. I just wanted her to like totally have she still had a job to? Do you know so I was just kind of like okay? I just WANNA myself like ghost pretty much like it's weird how I don't know I had this experience onset that imposter syndrome, because you're playing, avert like playing a version of somebody who is one of my. Idols, and then playing this character, it was also just such a great experience. It was like I'm going to watch. Reese I'm going to be able to soak all of this up. But what I didn't realize is I've never been on a set with so many supportive women, and having like challenging conversations about motherhood about class, and about race, and figuring all of this stuff out and constructing these characters and what they WANNA do and watching being able to sit there. There and like do my job is an actor, but then also thinking. Wow, this is one of my favorites I've ever been on in terms of like watching. Women collaborate like so yeah women yeah yeah I never I actually I. I have to actually amend this. 'cause I've said I've never been in a on a show that like where the video village all women I actually have one other time, but let me tell you. It did not go like this. Because, and it's because like it's not like they're not just having women there just to say they have women there. You know what I mean sometimes, so let's fill a quota and let's say like Oh were being so progressive because we have a bunch of women here and whatever and it doesn't always work because the women don't work with integrity, and they don't necessarily care about the work. They don't necessarily care about supporting other women, and like and like doing the highest quality of work that they can and these women like. Like you said, we're just so supportive, insanely supportive what we were trying to do trying to make sure that we were feeling our best in feeling like we were doing our best work, but also like just being like bad asses in. Running the set so well and just it's one of the most inspiring situations I've been in one hundred percent. Well, it didn't also it didn't feel just like a over making a TV show. It's where what is this show saying? Letting every single character like speak for themselves, but having like empathy for each of those characters and bringing them to full life, which I think is is one of the best parts. Parts of the show and It seems like Challenges for both of you specifically where you know you're, you're each in this one episode and you have to pack so much empathy and moments for both of your characters aren't necessarily likable for the entire. You know quote, unquote, likeable, and in the decisions that they make because you're also playing a time period where I'm pretty sure, neither if you were alive. Maybe. But what was your initial in for 'em? Being able to empathize with your character at the point that there at in the flashbacks when developing roles like growing up in theaters are teachers would always be like you just don't get to judge your characters. The stood. You don't get to judge them. Because the second you start judging them. You're not going to be able to. To do them justice. I mean I don't know if I'm delusional. Because I was playing the part, but every decision. She still make sense to me because I when I was living. You know that's what I was living. As it made sense to me, she was desperate in was losing so much at once. She's young and she's. You know so dedicated to her art and. She wants to prove ourselves. You know all. She's falling in love. All these things are happening I. Think what was helpful for me. Is Visualizing Elena stories? The sort of tightly wound little like spring. And then there's this part in her life that just like you know, she's plant. She goes to college she has this boyfriend her plan. She goes to Paris then there's this period in her life where she thinks it's going. And then it just like completely just like unravels. It's just like splatter paint. How do you clean data back up? Like what would it feel like if? I had a baby and the baby needs to eat, and the baby won't eat, and my boobs won't give it up. It's nothing is working the way that it's supposed to and feeling like. Everything is just on top of you and crumbling. You're fully coming apart absolutely I. Really loved that edition of Elena, having difficulty, producing milk, and and like you're saying her body, not working quote, unquote the way it was supposed to do in these circumstances, because that really connected her to I, think bb, yes, and storyline, and it's like that's something as we. The audience know like Oh, Olena. MVP, have so much in common. They would have so much to talk about if Elaina were willing to have that conversation within the series. We're talking about motherhood, but it's also. Motherhood and class and like. So she's life is hard for her, but it's not as hard for her. It's like oh her. She's getting a remodel in her kitchen. She can still afford to get as much formula as she needs right, but it's just It's that failure to see the other side I've been asking everybody this question towards the end of an interview because I'm just everyone has slightly different answer that I think is very interesting I'm. Coming from your perspective of where you come into the show, and what your connection to the character is. What do you hope that a viewer takes away from watching this show? I feel like if there's things about character that upset, you teased out like with a friend or talk about it and be able to sort of have those hard conversations about motherhood or about like if you can afford to have a child. But you don't necessarily want to. How are you judging that character lake that is a very sensitive hard conversation to have but I think it's worth rather than just like watching it and going on moving on with your life. I think it's meant to sort of be talked about in a broader sense and I think there's so many moments like that throughout the series. Yeah, I feel like it raises so many really hard questions about class and race and intersects nowadays like it's just like. It raises so many questions that I think are really hard for women to have especially like black women white women. Yeah I think it's really hard for us to have conversations about our experiences where we don't get defensive when we're really listening to each other without bringing guilt into it, you know just just from the point of view of playing Nia and a young black woman who comes into this world where she thinks she's the only one the only outsider, and she's struggled Ryder play said she has no money, and there's so much just in this this one character and every character has that. That much going on which is so amazing, you know I mean I. Just really hope that people who don't normally see themselves in a person of a different race or a different sexuality can watch this and go. Oh okay. I can see myself in this character, and may be the open them up to reaching out to someone who doesn't look like them, or is in the same classes them and opening up a conversation, and having those conversations, and hopefully doing the work to. Build their community out from that. Let's see both killed that answer. Yeah and thank you so much for sitting down with me. I truly cannot compliment both of your performances enough. You were both so wonderful congratulations, yes, amazing job and thank you so much for making the time to sit down with us. They so much, thank you. Thank you so much to fear and Tiffany for talking with us, and Oh my gosh, what performances it takes more than masterful performances to selby fully fleshed out flashback Rosie episode one zero six. It also takes incredibly detailed production design. So next I decided to speak again with the little fires everywhere production designer herself. Jess kinder- who took on not just making an older version of Shaker, heights but of New, York City as well. Here's some of our conversation. I'm just the production designer of little fires everywhere. He just. How are you good? Okay I am so excited to be talking with you again. I mean there's so much to discuss. I mean I have a lot of questions about the production design process. You're not just creating a period piece. You're creating a period piece twice. Because, you have ninety Shakur and you have eighty Shaker so. I guess. To to backtrack. And what was your research process for building out? This world I felt like the script was very very clear on who the characters were, and so it was just as soon as I read it. I could see in my head. What things should be and it was a matter of just finding a way to present to the group like this is what I see and so I ended up. For Elena what I really felt like? Because my my dad was raised in Cleveland, we would go every year. He actually had a paper out in Shaker Heights. Yeah And so in my mind. The level of affluence that we were trying to go for is this group of people who while they're in the mid west, they. Emulate almost more of sort of the new. England vibe pulled a lot of like Ralph, Lauren, and Laura, Ashley and those type of Vibes, and I tried to think back to when I was graduating college in ninety seven, and like what was popular, then and so I started looking at like the Ethan Allen's because it's sort of this level of they don't have. Quite the level of money to go outside of the normal box would look within, but they have enough money to go to the higher end places. And when I started pulling those I was actually pulling reference of interiors of actual Shaker Heights houses on like the last. In one of the time I was like I am on the right track as I pulled. A photo of a dining room from Shaker heights that had the exact same dining set as the Ethan Allen Ad. I had pulled to pair with so it was like. Oh, it's yes, totally spot on is what they're emulating exactly is a very like I. Don't know even I feel like it. It reads so well in the sense that you designed of just like very like Clinton. ERA, upper-crust wealth. Look. Yeah so I guess this is still this applies to the nineties and the eighties, but you shot the show in California. So how did you how? How does that work? As you would never know I mean you literally brought Ohio to California. Where do you start well? You start with a great location manager. We have any vowel. WHO's fantastic and she's been doing it or decades, and so if you say, we need to do East Coast Midwest here. She knows where to go I've been lucky that I have also been working only in La because I had two kids and decided I wasn't going to travel, and so I've been on a few shows that have done that, so you already know the basic pockets that can pass, and then we needed to sort of fine. Tune it down to Shaker Heights. And so we actually scouted Ohio So, we didn't even have to just go off of pictures, and honestly I've been going there since I was born. And, so we knew already what type of House we were looking for Elena and we knew general area where it might be, and so we scouted around until we found it. In fact that started with Jason Kaplan who was trained by Veronese, she came on just a little bit later. Yeah, so he found that. And, then we sort of picked. It's funny. What we ended up with our Shaker Heights is almost a little more idealistic than the actual. Shaker heights interest It's we picked an area that. When you picture in your mind sort of. The most beautiful warm friendly downtown you know with the clock and it would have the church steeple, and it would have all those things we found that made it into our Shaker Heights. Where there square is actually it's not quite that it's almost one step below, but we were sort of creating. This ideal world that then you find out. It's getting eaten away from the inside Ray. Right where you're just like it's. It's so perfect that it almost comes across a little sinister sometimes. Yeah, so we talked a little bit in our last episode about your choices about setting this, Shaker in the nineties. So then when we do the flashback episode, we also get a glimpse. You know round the time. That Elena is pregnant with Izzy, so you just sort of you know de aged the. What does that process of we know at this place looks like in Nineteen ninety-seven. Okay? How did it look in eighty three eighty four? So what I loved about that? Honestly the exteriors remain basically the same except the cars in front of them change exteriors don't age in the same way that interiors do things I don't think the course. Yeah, but the interiors was fantastic because we got to. To See? Apartment is MIA's apartment. And then what? It looked like a lane as world before Elena fully came into Elena right, so we got to play around with eighty stuff, which was fun, but for me seeing the apartment have a different character was almost more exciting, and then when we went into her house to Sita's her mom's. We took that back more to like this sixty seventy. Which? Superfund time period to do and watched her and the control that we see that she normally has like. If you look around, she would never be in that kitchen. What we did to it was fun to see her dropped into that environment, and then even I mean I liked the addition by by the writers, but the way that you brought it to life for so cool, if like the remodel where you literally see the constructed world from the nineties. Her in the process of making that happen is like such a cool character. beat to visually see and then, and then we have this whole other set piece of news in the eighties that sounds like an another huge kind of taking so when you read the script of okay, this is where we are in New York. This is this is the scene were n. she's a student. What was your preparation process for bringing that to life? Well, the the great thing there was so I was raised in Jersey right across the bridge from Manhattan Right, so I came up in the eighties. And Zinc our director for that episode has a super clear vision of ways we. We were going to accentuate the eighties for example. If you look we kind of control the Color Palette there are a little bit more like it's much, black, white and red, which is. Sort of what I think of. You know it's funny. I actually we originally had some scenes that we're GONNA be in the Bronx. The boogie down Bronx time except it turns out. That came one year after we were doing, but it was one of those where it's such an evocative time when New York was still dirty and gritty and. There are so many strong. Visual references. With n'singa leading it, it was it was a very easy translation to see graffiti everywhere, but let's play with these highlights and this rawness and it came together really easily. Thank you so much for taking the time just we appreciate it. Thank you again to just tender creator of world and to round out. This flashback themed episode. I wanted to talk to Liz tickle are. So, if you don't remember, she is a wonderful show. Runner, head, writer and executive producer of little fires everywhere and put a lot of care and thought into building this flashback world. That doesn't really exist in the book, so Liz was kind enough to sit down with me recently and walk me through what that process is like, and I wanted to share it with you. Here's our conversation. One of the things that was so cool about the book. Obviously was the like humongous. Reveal of the mystery of me is back story I think. We knew when we did when we got to that episode, we knew we needed an equal reveal Elena backstory. That was something that we really talked about in in terms of jumping around in time like you said we always wanted to do. These kind of unique non-linear cold opens. Yes, start to get us in this feeling that we could be jumping around in the beginning, and of course that cold open would be resonant to what the theme or The plot of that upcoming episode was or whose character story was featured. Featured and so that by the time we get to six, it's our flashback episode and what ends up happening. Is you start with your non linear cold open, and our idea was that you just never come out of it so all you're telling the audience that it's GonNa. Feel one way, and then all of a sudden. It's like why are we still in the eighties? Why are we still in the eighties? And originally we'd had Elaine his whole story in the eighties being episode six of, but then we re and we had a different opening to five interesting. This was still in the writing process. This is in the writing process. And this was. This was pretty far in the writing process, but we felt like we did have this whole new. York story with Elena and five where she goes to New York and In the book, she has an ex boyfriend named Jamie. That's given a few lines right? That was something that we really wanted to take from the book and then just be like okay. How can we take this little seed that Celeste Planet of backstory, and like Grodin to an entire backstory for Elena? Yeah, I mean what were were there other contenders in terms of I? Mean because like you're saying it's. It's just a real like Niblett of information that Celeste gives you the book and you turn it into A. A, really thoughtful centerpiece for Atlanta's background were there other things in at that were contenders in the writer's room of Oh. Maybe we could show this side of her this side of her. What what drew you to that specific storyline and expanding on I feel like we've maybe talked about a couple of different things, but that had always emerged very early as what we wanted to focus on because I, felt like in the book and I mean what is in the book is is a Lena's. Relationship with Izzy in the book, it was discussed about how even Lena's pregnancy was hard. And that is, he was born. She was in the nick. You and she was a sick kid and Elena was always so worried and so fiercely protective that dynamic really colored their relationship and shape their relationship, and is he was kind of a fearless kit, and Elena was so fearful of. Of her and then almost resented the energy that is required and we thought you know, how could we? How could we take that spirit? But maybe folded into something that could involve elaine, his backstory in a broader sense, so we thought if instead of dealing with this idea that is, he was a sick kid in Elena was protective. What if we? What if we took from? What ends up being the LEXI story and and took the backstory of like this that there's always been this fraught with Izzy and we used it to explore abortion and choice and and what your parents teach you in who? WHO's allowed to do certain things in WHO's not allowed to do certain things? And how could we tell a story of Elena? Not Wanting to have a fourth kid and having a resentment toward that kid because she couldn't. Do something that she wanted to do. which was make the choice to not have a fourth kid? And how could we show that her own daughter while still while still learning I don't WanNa say learning not great things from her, but still echoing. Alana's beliefs, maybe in a in a way that's not involving a lot of critical thought that she still is different than her mother in the idea that in the nineties in her situation, she does have the. And in does have the. Confidence and access, yeah! Yeah most importantly access to make that choice. Thank you again to is tickle are and you can look forward to hearing more of her later in the podcast series and we've only got two more episodes before this podcast series wraps up because guess what there's only two more episodes of little fires everywhere and things are heating up, so that's going to do it for us this week next week. I'm going to be talking with teen cast of little fires everywhere about their. Their experiences on the set an in depth discussion about the issues raised by the adoption storyline on the show so lot to look forward to there. In the meantime you can fall little fires everywhere across all your social media's at little fires, who and watch new episodes every Wednesday on Hulu with of our podcast, being released shortly after those subscribe now so you don't forget and I will see you next time sweet shaker.

Elena Richardson New York Afia N. Tiffany M. Shaker Heights Izzy Elaine Shaker Heights Carey reese Hulu Johnny Loftus Liz tickle MIA mastitis Rob official executive producer writer Alina Mia
Sindy Warren

Living Regret Free

25:29 min | 2 years ago

Sindy Warren

"Hi everyone. This is Dr. Carson welcome to living. Regret free a program that shows you how to live a better and more joyful life as an added bonus. I invite you to listen to an introduction to my mindset matters program which ties into this sub. Well, go to WWW dot SOB mindset dot com. It's free and I know you will enjoy it if you'd like to contact me personally, drop me a line at Gail Carson thirteen at g mail dot com or go to my website, WWW dot spunky, old, broad dot com and sign up for my weekly newsletter. My guest today, Cindy Warren, Cindy is a certified yoga and meditation teacher and a lifelong student of practice. She's passionate about sharing the wisdom and beauty of the practice of yoga with others in her new book Radi eight using the practice of yoga to cultivate your inner shine. She make. Persuasive case for the continued relevance of the philosophical underpinnings of yoga for the modern Yogi, and even simply the yoga periods. She lives in shaker heights, Ohio, where she teaches yoga and meditation has a legal consulting business and is raising a family. Welcome, Cindy, thank you so much, Gail, it's an honor to be here with you. Well, you know, something is I was reading a little bit about you and so forth. I thought to myself, no wonder she's practicing yoga. If she is a legal consultant and a graduate of loss. I'm sure the other balances you out quite a bit. So why don't you start by telling us when you first started practicing yoga and why it appeals to you. Absolutely. I started practicing yoga about fifteen or sixteen years ago. I've always been a very avid exerciser. In fact, back in the eighties and early nineties. I've taught step aerobics and I kept hearing about what a great workout yoga was. And that was what drew me to my first class. I had no idea that yoga was more than physical exercise and came to learn that over the next few years and became very passionate about the larger context of what yoga is all about. That is so interesting because I am a product of step aerobics and I still work out every single day or an hour and a half to two hours, and but I don't do step aerobics anymore because of knees and things like that. But I've never been a great practitioner of yoga. It has just not appeal to me or then easy for me either. I said, I think that what's easy for some is not easy for others, but you then became a yoga teacher. So why did you decide that you wanted to teach yoga? Well, I really had been a student of the practice. I got very into the physical practice like you. I continue to do other things too. I also enjoy running on Hinz was really about a decade plus into my practice in a friend suggested to me. Why don't you do a teacher training. And I thought you, I have this legal consultant business, some raising a family. I don't have time to be a yoga teacher, but this would be a good way for me to deepen my on practice. So that's what initially drew me to my first teacher training. Interesting. So you really didn't go into it with the idea that you're, we're gonna teach. You went into it really for your own knowledge Annetta vacation. Exactly. Exactly. Telling my husband, you'll about halfway through the teacher training program. My initial one I said, maybe all end up teaching once a week, and he said not more said novel, I don't have time. Well, now I'm practically, I juggled to careers teaching yoga and the legal consulting in teach just about every day in my life. Wow. Well, now you, you wrote this book now. Did I pronounce correctly visit ready? You're ready age yet. It's radiate. It's a plan, radiate. I got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. The number is in the title as a reference to the eight hour or eight Lynn path of yoga philosophy that breakdown in the book. So who should really read the book and what is the main message of the book. The main message of the book is that yoga is a systematic way of approaching all areas of your life. Not just is ical yoga practice. Meditation is a big part of the practice, but it's not even just about meditation. Yoga is ancient philosophy going back thousands of years, and I think for modern yoga practitioners, much of the historical philosophical context of it has been lost. The west has in some ways, just turned it into another form of exercise in really is so much more than that. So I wrote the book for students of the practice, but even people who might never have any interest in unrolling the yoga mad or taking downward facing dog as just a way to make your wife and yourself happier, more fulfilled, more loving, more kinds, those sorts of things house. So would you say that I mean when when you tell people you're a yoga teacher and do people think of it as it's a a certain kind of person Qassam times people think it's an exclusive club. I mean, I will tell you the yoga people. I know they come in. They take the class after me and my classes, the core and the strains, and all of that. And they come in after me and you're so nice and they're so quiet and they're so gentle and we're just bouncing off the walls. So what do you think about that at is really funny, a person. I mean, just hard wiring. I'm way more like you and the people in your class downsizing, the walls. Why of energy? I think there are so many ways. Yoga has been pigeonholed. One is the way you just described. Sort of this characterization of yogis is just always done and chill and go with the flow. Another sort of byproduct of the westernization of the practice is that it's all about pastoral row us in accomplishment and achievement in the fancier. The pose, the more steeped in yoga one is an, I don't think any of those capture any those characterizations capture what yoga was meant to be or in my mind what it really is. So. Would you say that that so what do you say yoga's let's let's find your definition. Yoga is a way of life that helps you get more familiar with the deepest party yourself while helping you take that deep party yourself out into the world to enhance all of your relationships. I like that. I like that. So you you, you talk then about you wrote about, you said the radiate the eight limbs of yoga path. What are they? When are they? I mean, can you tell us briefly and -solutely the first of the eight limbs is called a use sands for it a little bit throughout the book. I'll just interrupt myself to give this caveat. Sanskrit is not necessary for anyone interested in yoga. I always provide the English translation, but it is sort of a nod in my mind to the tradition into the teachers that have come before us modern teachers. So the first of the eight limbs is called the Yama zwei m a s and it is a, it's a group of five ethical practices that helpless relate to the world around us. For example, the first one is violence. It's in sanskrit a himself, and it's really about how you relate to the world around you those in your life the next and don't interrupt me if I'm going to best now. No, this is fine. Okay, great. The second limb is called neom 'as and that is a grouping of five ethical practices that we engage in to enhance our relationship with ourselves. So one of them is called self study or spot. Ya. Ya in sanskrit and it's a kind of a disciplined approach to understanding your mental chatter, the natural wandering of your mind, the nature of your inner dialogue. The idea being that once you're more familiar with what's going on in your internal dialogue, you can make it more productive, healthy kind central. So those first two lands are all about kind of ethics in the larger context. And I think most modern yoga practitioners don't know that that's a big part of this thing. I'm calling yoga. The next limb is called Austin, ah, is the physical practice. So that's what we think of probably most of us when we hear the word yoga, yoga studio people enroll in sticky, Matt, digging downward facing dog, moving through some sort of physical practice that's us enough. And it's so interesting to me that it's only one of eight limbless Witter I think so many modern practitioners view it as the whole kit and caboodle if you will. The next lamb limb number four is breath work Rana Yama in sanskrit, and in a yoga class, the teacher will instruct the students to match their movements to their breath. But front of Yama also stands on its own as a way to calm the nervous system to regulate emotions. And so breath work is also a big part of the practice. Those are the first four that have almost a little bit more of an external focus, how we relate to ourselves in conjunction with the external world, for example. And then the last four really Brune us more to an inward journey, which is a really important part of yoga. The fifth lamb is called protea HARA and it translates as sensory withdrawal, which means removing yourself from the stimulus of the external world and turning inward. So we might think of the yogis in the old days withdrawing into a cave for months or even years at a time, literally taking themselves out of the external world modern yogis. We find more accessible ways to tap into that Lim. Then next lamb is called Darna, which means concentration. This is the beginning stage. Age of meditation where we bring our minds eye to one point of focus in practice, staying with that one pointed focus. So it's it's kinda be opposite or the antidote to multitasking. Next is Diana which literally translates as meditation. Meditation is just a huge part of the yoga tradition and philosophy, and it's there are so many definitions for meditation, but I would define it as a process of drawing the intention inward focusing on an internal focal point and then feeling into the connection between yourself in the world's around you. And that leads us right to our final lamb called Samadi, which translates as Enlightenment's in there are so many different ways to think of spiritual enlightenment. Many of which are completely unattainable for most of us heater, but I like to think of enlightenment in a more accessible way as something that we can get little glimpses of throughout our lives. If we practice the other of the limbs where we really feel into an tap into that. That connection between us between us in our creator or we can think of it as the source or divine consciousness or any any way you like to conceive of our connection. You know, when the f. -scribed these these eight limbs. Now, I'm sure that most yoga teachers are aware of this, but I don't think I have ever common contact with someone who practices, yoga takes a yoga class that they ever talk about any of these. I mean, is this something that people study as part of yoga? I mean, I go to yoga studio. I take a yoga class and somewhere along the line of of me going to all these classes, this is gonna come up because I don't ever remember hearing any of this. It's such an interesting observation. Yoga teachers have to go through a minimum certification of two hundred hours and my exposure. My understanding is that every two hundred our will at least cover the eight limbs in some cursory form. So yoga teachers should at least know there's this concept of the eight limbs. Now, whether they're able to really study it incorporated into their lives and then translated to their students is a whole nother story. And I think your observation is is quite revealing in that most practitioners end even teachers don't know much about the about these eight limbs. So I'm not a fan of try. To hit people over the head with philosophy or say, you need to know this or you have to study this instead when I'm teaching a yoga class, I try in sprinkle in little bits of the philosophy without even necessarily labeling it for the students almost more as an inspirational message of this is the larger point of what we're doing on our Matt's right now. So you can take it into your lives. But, but I think most teachers probably don't do even that. Yeah, I mean, so. So I guess what I would ask you is a couple of questions. What if someone has no interest in going to yoga studio or engaging in the physical part of the practice? Can he or she will he or she still or can read, I guess, is the big thing still practice yoga? Absolutely. The trick will be finding the right group of students and the right teacher. So finding your community. Most yoga studios will offer something. It's not physical practice related, whether it's a meditation class or a discussion brutal. I've hosted a book club at the studio where I work for a number of years is a way to just talk about yoga, think about yoga without actually doing any of the physical stuff on. So yet there are teachers out there that wanna do this Ian because yoga has become so ubiquitous. I think there are more of us on Ben might be readily apparent. So it may take a little digging on the part of the would-be Yogi, but we're, we're out there and I guess that's where you go to have this discussion about the limbs aptly, Andrew. Now you you bring up a couple of other point in that is. Is yoga philosophy described sometimes as the religion. I don't think of yoga philosophy as a religion. I think of it more as a secular humanistic tradition. You can be a devout Catholic Jew Muslim in practice yoga. You can be a committed atheist or agnostic in practice yoga. You actually don't have to believe in any kind of deity or divine consciousness or even source. Those are things you may see sprinkles off in the philosophy, but it's really more of a practical way of living than it is a dog Matic religious belief. So a lot of the philosophy that you describe. Seems to talk about non attachment has an ideal or as a way out of suffering. Do you really think we shouldn't be attached to our loved ones or do the things that bring us joy in meeting in the world? I mean, I would think that yoga would bring you joy in me and it does and love the question because I think it captures a big misconception about what attachment the noun attachment muse. So in yoga philosophy, it is said that the overly attached or that's a more accessible way to understand the concept of attachment is to say, overly attached wearing suffering. So if there's something that you really want to in your life, a new car, for example, you get the car, you think you'll be happy when you have the car. You get the car, you're happy and then life goes on. And soon there's something else you need your attached to your overly attached to thinking that will. The next source of your happiness. So yoga asks us to unhook a little bit from the external things that we think we'd need or want to be happy and to find that within now when it comes to our relationships with our loved ones, I think the conversation gets a little more interesting and perhaps subtle, of course, we should love with abandoned and be of service to those in our lives. It's when we get to hooked in that. We make the relationship more about our selfish desire than actually about serving the relationship or the other person. So that's what I mean when I say unhook a little bit, it's not detached like don't care. It's more like detach so that you can show up fully without selfish desire involved in the equation. If that makes sense. Some Buzek modern yoga as we know it as. Has been watered down too much of the spirituality of the practice I do. It's been watered down to the point where most modern practitioners in even many teachers coming out a teacher trainings don't know. Haven't studied and don't try and incorporate the larger philosophy into our lives. So I do think there's a water in down that's gone too far. We went anything. Any sort of Cyril tradition transcends cultural lines. It's going to shift in more a little bit as yoga has moved east to west, and that's okay. I think. Changing tradition to fit modern times, make sense, but losing tradition makes me a little bit sad. So for your students who go to their yoga, mat, five, six, even seven times a week and don't have any kind of inner awareness or meditation practice or don't think about how they can be more loving and kind in the world. That makes me sad because I feel like those people are missing the main point, the main fruits of the practice of yoga, they may be getting flexible and strong and supple, but they're missing the real point. Interesting. So when we talk about. These, you know the the external restraints yomas the internal restraints Indiana's, which which would one would you focus on and why? If I had to pick one, it would be a him saga, which means nonviolence is the very first of the ethical restraints. For a reason, it really underpins all of the yoga philosophy. So any of the other practices will always take a back seat to a himself nonviolence non-harming. It's sort of like the Hippocratic oath for yogis. So what it means is not just that you don't go hit people, kill people kick dogs, etc. It's deeper analysis of doing hurt authors. With my words. Do I hurt others with my thoughts? Do I hurt myself with my thoughts? And so even something. Is fraud and perhaps bay seeming as a him. Some non violence can be turned into something that goes very deep within us. So as I mentioned, when I was talking about the neon as so much of the yoga journey is an inward one with the premise being that we love ourselves, I not to be air against not to have big heads, but so that we can go out into the world and love others. And himself recognizes this by asking us to work on our inner dialogue as well as what we direct to others in in our world. While I want people to be able to get a copy of your book, radiate because. First of all, I think you approach it. I think you approach the whole walk practice of yoga and a very unique way. And I think that you write in a very down to earth commonsense way. So where can people go to get your book and how can people reach you? Thank you for us getting the book is on Amazon. It's under my name's Cindy Warren radiates. And by the way, that's not a normal, Cindy Warren that is. Then Cindy with a with an s. right Iraq s. I n. d. y. right. So Cindy warn s. I n. d. y. w. a. w. a. r. e. okay, go ahead. Amazon's where to get the Bush and anyone wanting to get in touch with me. You can go to my I which is WWW dot yoga, eight. The number yoga, eight book dot com. Or you can find me on Facebook or Instagram under Cindy Warren. And I always love chatting with people who wanna talk about yoga. So what would you say is the greatest gift of the practice in your own life? Yoga has made me less reactive. Less dependent on external stimulus to fill me up. More able to be present in the moment with whoever or whatever is right in front of me and softer in my inner dialogue in my relationship with myself. That's so important. Yeah, that is so important, especially in the profession that you're in you in consulting. I would think as calm as you can be an appreciative as you can be is king. Remember the book is called radiate, but it's spelled r. a. d. y. and then the letter eight using the practice of yoga to cultivate your inner shine. So when you look for our AD, I in the letter eight. So, and if you if you want to find out more about Cindy, you can go to her Facebook page. You can find her on Instagram. The important thing is, I think if you if you take a look at this, you're going to be very interested in how she approaches this whole of practice of yoga. So I wanna thank you, Cindy. It's been very delightful and different talking with you today. I hope our audience really got a lot out of it. I know they did and I wanna thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you so much, Gail, I love the work you're doing, and it really wasn't honor to be here with you. Thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy today's show. I choose my guests. Carefully. So if you have someone you'd like me to interview, please drop me a line at Gail Carson thirteen at Jamal l. dot com. In the meantime, checkout my intro program mindset matters at WWW dot SOB mindset dot com. See you next week.

Cindy Warren Gail Carson consultant physical exercise Matt shaker heights Ohio Amazon Hinz Annetta Facebook protea HARA Lynn Cyril Indiana Brune Darna Austin Diana
More Time To Do What You Love with Jen Lehner

Live Your Dreams Awake Podcast

51:43 min | Last month

More Time To Do What You Love with Jen Lehner

"Anyone lead, do not believe in accidents, and it was definitely not an accident tonight the Gen Leonard sat down beside me. You'RE GONNA love, this story of Jan, and how she really had to take a big look at her life and her business, when her child really came out with a sentence that she was really shocked and surprised by so you're GONNA. Love this especially, if you. You are in business, but if you're not in business I, feel like this is a huge huge huge episode for you to take away around where we can really add source and get some more help in our lives in our businesses. Jen is so passionate about what she does, and you are going to absolutely love her her energy and all the insights that she has to share. Hi there and welcome back to the live. Your Dreams Awake podcast show for powerhouse women who wanted to ray more wildly live more vibrantly and give back generously brought to you by the parish. Acton Academy with your hosts Patricia Logan Author. Coach, functional expert Intuitive Heater Shaman I'm passionate female entrepreneur, so look at this like a genius in your ear. Inspiring you to live your dreams now. Hey Jen. Where are you in the world today? I am in Shaker Heights Ohio. Ohio cool! Is it cold? It is very cold. I'm looking at my window right now and I see snow. It's not a ton of snow, but it's. It's cold home. Nice, we! It's no here the other day as well Jen Ptolemy I. Want you to tell me what you're like way. You introduce yourself to people. It's like what do you do? I tell people that I am a digital marketing and systems strategist. Just does not sound exciting at all, but that's what I tell people for now until I can think of something more exciting well before this. Before we actually hit record. I said to her well. You Do Digital Mario, but you're not one of the slimy people, so honestly an honor, thank you and I, but I know exactly what you mean for sure. I met on them at as part of a mastermind and I have to say I was just so endeared by her generosity, and her spirit of just sharing, and also her wisdom and knowledge but I know that this isn't kind of watch. These always done so I wanna hear more about what Jen what you like. How did you get to be social digital marketing experts and this girl that you are because you really are for me the Go-to, when it comes to like auto, do with this APP and the social media thing on everyone else. So how did you get there? You can long story and that's okay. Yeah, okay well, so I have always always loved technology before I. Knew What Technology was even like I? Remember you know this black the tape recorder. Will I'm older than you? Used to be tape recorders like flat black latte tape-recording IRA by them they like. So I would take those and I was just fascinated by like the whole fact that you could record voice on it, so I would press record I would slide them underneath. You have four brothers, so any brother would do I. would just like put it in their room and spy on them. You know, but it wasn't even the dirt that I was GonNa get on. then. That was like thrilling thrilling to me. The whole like I would stop record I would hit. rewind would did at work. You know walkie talkies when I was very much a tomboy. Talkies and my grandfather had like a CB radio. You know looking back. I always did love that stuff, but much later in life or when email for set the scene. I was like the first person I think in my town. That got email Things like that. I met my husband on the Internet on in Nineteen Ninety Eight on America. Online I, just really like all that stuff. And so when I had kids I was still dabbling in it, so I remember like nursing, Jake, holding him in my left arm, my right arm. I was like figuring out how to like lists stuff on. ebay said this was in two thousand and and just for the again. It was like yeah. It would be neat if I sold something, but was more amazed that you. Could you know wall? Wall the possibilities that were there. If I wanted to build a business with like you, could you know and it was just thrilling thrilling thrilling to me, so I sort of you know. Through the years I was I was with my kids. And raising my kids I was always the mom who did like you newsletter for the classroom, not because they asked me to, but because I asked them if I could you know what they didn't even doing a newsletter, but like can I do your newsletter I make a website for you. I am by make a website. You know it wasn't. Like using a template of some sort to. I'm not a Coder, but anyway so all that stuff, and then when they I did. This thing called a flash mob. Do you know what a flash MOB IS YEMI? Do you know what a cash mob is. No, I don't to cash mob as educate cash mob is like a flash mob. Okay, so a flash mob, is you? A bunch of people choreographed some sort of dance or something. silly. Yeah, and then they publicly get together and wow. Everybody with like spontaneous performance. A cash mob is where a bunch of people come together to support local business. By showing up with cash and purchasing stuff, right like you just all show up surprise to the hardware store, and you all like purchase stuff and they had this new pot. So. There's this pie shop in town and They were brand new, and they were little, and I just thought you know what. Nobody's GonNa go there because there doesn't look like there's parking, and I'm a consumer, and they're not far away, and I haven't been there, and they've already been open for like three months. And what if nobody goes will? They're going to go out of business. And then somehow I got the idea of like. Let's support them. Let's do a flash mob, and that's what I got to pull together. My skills like I knew how to tweet and I knew how to. Do facebook and I knew how to do like a constant contact type E, mail blast him. I did this and we organized it, and there was lines wrapped around the building for three hours a week. You were there, and once they got in, and they experienced their pies now they're gonNA. Come back and be repeat customer, so it was really successful, so I ended up like creating a trademark I called it flash cashiers, and we just supported local businesses that way we did twelve businesses and. It was completely nonprofit. You know I wasn't making any money, but what happened was I learned that like wow, these businesses are not marketing and what came easy to me. Nobody knew how to do long. You know it's funny like when you think something. Salty comes easy to you. You don't ever think charging for it because you sort of take for granted that other people probably know how to do that. It's no big deal you know like, but really they didn't know the stuff that I knew. So I was like. Wow, I might be able. Able to make money, and then I hired someone and I mean I went to someone who had a business had no website. No marketing and I said to her. Hey, I gotta deal for you. Let me do all your marketing for like three months I'm going to do a website for you. I'm going to do everything you don't have to pay me. Anything I was like all I. Want is for you to give me a recommendation. If you like what I do and you have to let me do what I WanNa do you can't. Stop me like I have to have complete artistic freedom. And she said no problem. So I did and that was it I ended up like being completely booked with clients. She told her friends and they told her friends so so I ended up being completely booked, and then I soon realized I hated having all these clients. Yeah, I was like Oh my God. It's like these people there. and. It was like no matter how much I charged. It just seemed like I didn't make money, but I did do that and it was fun. It was so wonderful that whole process of exploration. Like what could I do? I was reading all the books. I was listening all the podcast. And like what am I gonNa be you know what is going to be so that was really fun, and then eventually I was like I know and I don't know who's podcasts. Listen to Amy Porterfield I don't know who, but it was like the whole idea of doing an online business where I could create an online product and had many of them. I mean sell to an infinite number of people as opposed to many clients. Who were just draining me at that sounded good, and that's what I did. That has just sort of been my My House marketing you know simplifying really stuff for people is what I like to do. I like to I like to show people how they can do what I did. Create an online course, a membership site whatever and have it not be complicated, intimidated or scary I absolutely love this I'm my favorite part of doing. This is really learning like the. Grass roots of how you started, and it's just so practical like just so from that place of like no wonder your heart, giving nature what I just was numbered by the very beginning, because that's where it all starts at from just sense of like wanting to support businesses, so I'm just I love this I love the idea of supporting the shop, and then growing amazing so I know that you know that pivot point as I, hear it between the clients and growing. It's so interesting because we had this I was running the restaurant and bar and. And off licence. That I didn't actually for me. It was like I wasn't staff or it wasn't. It wasn't the wasn't the customer. Is that were for me the hard part? It was managing all the team and the staff, and that was the hard part for me so I know that you have like I have fully participated in one of Jen's program on like one of her biggest fans of this program because I know you had like a real pivot point in your business where things have to change and I want you to talk about Nas. Yeah so so sort of like pro. Let's say like around the time when I was pivoting from the clients and to this new venture of of creating online information products I was. I was just working a lot. I was it was all consuming and. And it was it was one of those days it was so crazy where everything had to fall into place like you know like a domino's like it in order for everything to to go off without a hitch, everybody had to be time meaning my kids needed to be on time getting home from school. I needed to get them in the car. On time. We had to get to these appointments. I needed to be back for an interview like whatever whatever it just everything had to work out and I had told my kids that day. Like okay, you guys. Mama's a busy day tomorrow. This all has to. Happen, okay okay, sure, MOM, Yup! We got it well. child number one my oldest child at the time he was thirteen P., forgot and he he took his time getting home from school, and he was late and I which made me late, which made everything late? It messes up the whole everything we had going. Which of course I can't even remember what the important things were, so they weren't that important right, but I overreacted I freaked out I. was just you know I was yelling I'm sure then we you know he. He an argument and then. Things calmed down. They simmer down and he This kid is my. He's very STOIC. Even when he was like a toddler like he, would you know? Hurt himself falling down or something, and he would fight his lip like he. Able to do everything he could to not cry. You know you just he was. That's how he is, and so he said His lips started to tremble I'm going. Try not to cry because I cry every. A recount this, but his lips Trimble, and I can tell you is about to cry. Just said mom, I know you think because I'm thirteen now that I'm a teenager now that I don't need you. He said by actually need you more than ever and And he said and also you're not any fun anymore. and. I was like. It was just such a huge moment for me and I was like we okay well I message received and now everything's GonNa change like right now. Like right this minute and i. told him that I just said I'm I am so sorry and I and I I'm GonNa? Fix this and so i. You know I just made rules for myself that I was. You know going to leave work early, but also stuff still had to get done so i. needed help and that's when I I hire my first virtual assistant and everything changed because I was able to leave. Leave work at three. PM when the bus. Pulled up and I was able to carry, but but things are still happening in my business, and it freed me up in so many other ways, not just in being able to reconnect with my kids, and be more present with them but also like suddenly now I was able to focus one hundred percent, or let's say ninety percent on the stuff I. Really loved him business, and like creating content and and networking, and all the things that were important for growing this this business Instead of the busy work, and all the admin stuff and the stuff that I didn't like so it was thank God. He said that you know because I. Don't know like. I don't know how far I don't know how long I would. I mean what if I kept doing that? You know and then I missed that opportunity with him. I mean it was like a a neat that slap in the face. Really that up that we all I think these are just not told me he could've just not told you, but on the other side, it's like that was a very emotional moment, a big moment and a big thing firm to say, but it really has changed the trajectory and the growth of Your Business and the focus of your business so immensely, and and this is a big one. What I just want to pull up around. This is the fact that. We think that we can do it all on our own, but actually we can't, and you need help in many parts of your lives. It's like for you for assistance part and won t dive more into that because you even bill. is around. It and Jan is very organized prison. Not like me, but having assistance was made me more organized, so that sense of like being thinking we can do it. All is just really going to bring us into that place of burners. It's I mean that the metaphor gets used all the time like the hamster wheel, but I can't think of a better I. don't I can't think of a better metaphor because you. You, know you you. You do the work, and then you fool yourself into thinking like you're the only one who can do the work, so you keep doing the work and then at some point you know even if you're crushing it, you've got a full client load at some point. There is a wakeup call. There's a a realization that light bulb whatever you smash right into a brick wall. Whatever it's, there is a ceiling that you hit when you understand that it's not sustainable that way like you will not be able to really fulfil your potential if you're trying to do it. All yourself and by the way someone can do it better than you. No matter how well you think you can do it or even if you do a well doesn't mean, you should be doing it. And sometimes, that's the biggest curse for people and that is that I'll give you myself as a my example is that I? Can create funnels and decent websites, and I can run facebook ads and I can. I can do all that. That is not what makes money for me. Okay? I am far better off getting someone else. Who actually does do that to make money. Let them do that I. Am now free to do the stuff that like actually moves the needle on my business, and it's it's just sometimes. We think like if I can do it on myself. I should just save that money and do but myself, but you are not saving money. In fact, you are losing your losing so much money. Only God seriously. You'RE GONNA. Love this so I was on TV It went live today here. In Orland. One of the articles is like ladies chat show. One of the articles was about a two ladies in Australia. Who have it's coming into Christie's in here even though this podcast is going Israelis much later. Two ladies, two, girls? Love love decorating Christmas trees. They just love it and they are charging now. People started asking them a bit like yourself. Oh can you can decorate my tree? You just just done a such a great job. So they've set up little. They made like four hundred and something dollars decorating Christmas trees now yesterday on the show. The other panelists will very much anti this an I was like they're not seeing the bigger picture because this really comes from this the outsourcing first of all. I personally love decorating my Christmas straight. Like I just love it. It's like do I bet you? There's hundreds of people out there who actually hate decorating their Christmas tree. The idea of it loan probably makes your skin curl, and that's so cool, and then there's this amazing service that these girls are only charging like twenty dollars an hour to decorate your tree a naked look fabulous. That is a no brainer. Now this is where we can. There can be like a little block you know on the woman beside is that? You seem to be so for these girls doing the tree like. Please don't tell me you pay people to decorate your Christmas tree and I'm like no 'cause I. personally like it was I swear to God, I see. Like this is so from a perspective of like consciously creating your life. You know for me. This is about doing the things that you love doing paying other people to do the stuff. You don't like doing so whether it's a Christmas tree or a Web size or grocery shopping like seriously. We are in Bali. We have an amazing woman like cooks food you just. Shopping and honestly I have taught about this in our land I'm like you know what I hate going grocery shopping you know it, and that's why online grocery shopping so amazing because it saves so much times you know, and it's like finding ways to consciously create your life on that time is our most valuable assets like for me. That's I think. What can you do for people is give them their the time to do what they love back and have somebody else who's better. Do what they like and what? They're great, so it's just A. It's a really interesting one, and it was so bizarre to be challenged about this because yesterday about the Christmas tree and I'm like you don't get it like this is about creating the life you on. Get someone to decorate your Christmas tree. If you're want like that's feels good, and it's GonNa. Look Amazing your. And you've got the time to spend it with your children. Are you get to your earning? Maybe I don't know. Maybe you get paid five hundred thousand ten thousand dollars an hour. Why would you not pay someone to do your tree? If you're going to get paid so much more, so Jen Oma God. It's true. Yeah! I love that algae. True and you know even for people who aren't entrepreneurs say outsource anything that you hate to do that you. Well let me back it up like you can't just do that if you're not making money with the that you say I know, not everybody could just like whoa out SORTA. Everything in this model, however like if you are earning money, and your time is worth something monetarily then it really makes good sense for example laundry. Okay, laundry I detest it. It's seems so futile futile to me like you do it, and then you do it and you do and you do it and you never stop. It's just laundry every day, and then it's folding it and and I don't mind actually the way it smells in the feels like there's something. Pleasurable about doing laundry, but I don't like putting it away for sure I can't stand it and if I could do it when I wanted into, that would be fine, but you can't. You gotTA gotTa. Keep up with your laundry especially when you have three kids so I- outsource that about. I. Don't know four years ago. Best thing I ever did. Because a laundry eats up so much time. Yes, to the grocery shopping same I mean every once in a while like to go to the market, but mostly all of my grocery, because I think like the hours that planning the the the list going and doing the shopping driving the crap home unloading it, and then putting it away wherever everything needs to go. What is that? That's half my day usually right like it feels like half the day. What could I have accomplished? How much money could I have erred in a half a day like allot so with all of this me to die loved. Sean I'm loved that we're on this and I really want people from especially this to. Awaken to the opportunities of people being able to help like Kenan. I joke. We had a cleaner that used to clean our house here in Ireland. And her name was arena, and honestly I could never get the house as clean as her. We actually jokingly call like a clean house. Serena cleaner when we welcome, we're like Oh. Because it felt so different and so positive and really nice, and that was always on a Saturday. When I would have been time for each other time to spend on a Saturday out doing some spending policy time together as opposed to cleaning the toilets and doing the hoovering and doing this stuff that we have the. We didn't get to see each other all week because we wrote working on then at the weekends. It's like wants came the toilet like you know we don't want to do that, so it's really about. Deciding looking as your time being valuable and knowing that the other benefit is you know Serena, and any of those people that we outsource at to are actually we're. We're creating a job for them. We're we're bringing money into. The economy were really kind of creating a business and helping support other people because at not flow is so positive, so there's that aspect as well. You know you're really helping other people. Yeah and I've had people push back on me with the the whole virtual assistant thing and saying like I just feel bad passing along tasks. I hate to somebody else and it's like hello. Just because you hate to clean the house arena loves IT IF SERENA DIDN'T love it. It wouldn't look as good as it did so. She can do that good of a job. She didn't love it. Some people really love to clean my mom. I know you yeah I'm onto. I was GONNA say I'm onto. She can't help herself. She just cannot even help herself. She's always sweeping or whatever, but anyway, yeah, so it's like no, no, no, just because you hate it. Someone else someone else out. There does not hate it. I totally agree and they're going to do a good job for you especially if they're going to do a better job because they actually enjoy it and they've become an expert at that exactly, and that's the whole that's for me. It's that sense of them. You know doing what they love. And if they don't, you'll know from that as well so jen, your business repainted when you on a Virtual Assistant Chalice more about this because I have been part of the program in terms of hiring ritual assistance from the Philippines. I have. Have Money, virtuous, and I have to really attest to having helped in the business. and outsourcing my email and doing so much like social media, all rides over the last few years has made a huge difference in terms of you know growing the business, but JEN's model for has blown my mind like honesty, and it's really blow my mind. That's honestly the organizational part as well as. Just a the hiring process, so tell us a little bit more about that journey to to bring someone that you've you've been on. okay, so first of all talk about the Philippines I just want to get this out of the way because. Why the Philippines, it's because we can leverage the exchange rate, but more than that right, because actually in Venezuela. Fit as well as the exchange rate is amazing right now India, the exchange rate is. Good there's other places around the world where the exchange rate is equally as good a maybe in some places better, however, in the Philippines they Most people speak English really well. They value education, so you're going to get as very highly educated even. Perhaps for the masters degree. But almost all of the as who I've interviewed, have college degrees minimally and. With the exchange rate, you're able, it's it's very doable for especially for like a a new fledgling business or a small businesses solo per noor who really It's really not. Just, does it make sense to spend twenty five to fifty dollars an hour on? You know hiring someone, but there are other ways that you can pay a virtual assistant the Philippines. We talk about that, so that they. Are Well compensated like with bonuses or profit sharing as like saying. Hey, if you know if we reach this goal, you're gonNA. Get ten percent of the Gross, or you're GONNA get two hundred dollar bonus, or whatever, and that makes sense for you. It makes sense for them. They've now. They now feel like ownership in your business, which is the most important thing when you have a virtual assistant because you want them to start feeling ownership in your business sooner rather than later because. They're gonNA. Stay with you for years, and that's what we want. We want to build a relationship. Have them invested and feel deprived and in your business, and those are some ways to do that? In terms of the the structure, the hiring structure is that you want me to speak to that. which was yes sure I just interested in like how how you pick the Philippines like I, know you talked about the currency rate and then hiring structure. It's just a little bit like whatever you feel. Good. Yeah so while the Philippines like I, have a special place in my heart for the Philippines because I lived there for three years. I went to university there. For a year, and I just love the people and I, you know. It's always weird to talk about like. A culture at large right like to say people or this or people are that, but it's. It's pretty true to say that like in the Philippines. They're a religious country. That's true. They're mostly Catholic and then along the same lines like they bow. Education and I have found that every day I. Work with the Philippines has been very loyal, even if they have to leave, there's a sense of loyalty you know all along the way and a sense of wanting to do a a really a really good job. Just so far of interviewing people on the PODCASTS. I am always amazed by the synergies. Because I also lived in the Philippines. I was eighteen on, and I don't think I knew that. Yeah on on a university intern ship so I totally like you know, testify to that sense of like for me, the Filipino culture so beautiful. They're such warm, welcoming, lovely people and having lived there, and met the people and still have friends. There, it's it's really nice, because even when I've spoken to and my V as and interviews like I lived there. You know I know that bullet beans on. They're like so amazed because it is one of these countries that's very much off the beaten track. Especially even when people go to Asia travelling around Asia, it's not the one that gets like Oh. We must visit the Philippines even though it is obsolete. fusible. It's spectacular. Yeah, so I I love like point like these crazy synergies synchronised thing coming up when I'm talking to someone like well like we do. I didn't know you were there for three years. Amazed that is that is amazing is so cool so so so fun, so having that connection is really nice as well and I feel like. You've been there and done that in terms of the journey with money money different as there, and I definitely did hire in the very beginning, the as that were much like twenty five thirty five dollars an hour and it. It meant what it really meant for me was that my va was paid and I wasn't. And that's not a healthy way to run a business at all and I didn't really know that there was other options and I feel like. This year specifically in our business. I have learned so much. It's just been a huge year of like growth and learning lessons. And one of the things really was coming sitting. This is Janet dinner in her. Talking about her amazing Va and I'm like Oh. My God, like I wish I knew this two or three years ago. I wish. I knew three years ago. That I could have this much support in my business now like back then for the amount that I was spending was only for a few hours and I. I could have had or hours a week for that much and that I was probably investing, or you know even lesser whatever, but now that I'm it's the space of like I. Really, that's why wanted jen heritage share this opportunity, and obviously the program the Chasma as as well because it really shows you how to get the right people, and this is a big part with the right fish as well. Yes so the thing is like I don't want anybody to just rush out and be like yeah. I'm going to go hire someone Philippines right now and they go to. Wherever they go, and then they. Post the job and then they hire like no, they're definitely the things that have to be in place in order to make this not a nightmare for you and more importantly to make sure that you get your perfect match, va, and so in my system it basically involves like a process of there's a test task involved so anybody who applies has to complete a task, and that right away eliminates you know seventy percent of the people who who are going to apply so that doesn't waste. Your time is not wasted, and then from that those applicants then there's a like a written online interview where you know, they fill out a form that goes to. To a Google Sheet, and again quickly scanning the Google sheet, you can see who made the cut from that place so now you know you've really narrowed it down quite a bit. You know that they done the task perfectly. They've answered the questions to meet the criteria that is important to you. And now they graduate to or move through to an actual interview type, and at this point, it's still not done because if you offer them the position I encourage people to offer a trial a trial period, and if you end up with two or three people going through the trial period all the better because at that point you, you know you really. Really can sort of compare people. They don't know that there's two other people you know in the trial period, but but that's sort of like a big broad overview of the system and then the other thing is sort of like making sure I. Make sure that everybody is organized and set before they ever post that Ad so that you aren't scrambling for like what am I? GonNa. Give them what am I. GonNa. Say what you know. All of that is done before you ever start so hopefully. It's pretty you know turnkey, and because that's a big problem when there I mean, there's so many bumps along the way that make it your. Your that make it for the busy entrepreneur going into it to either overlook it and pretend they didn't see that just because they just want to hurry up and get someone higher because they've already invested all this time in the interview and everything else, and they say well I'm just going to overlook that and go ahead and hire them or never really get started because they think Oh, my God like businesses such a mess I don't know what I'm doing from one day to the next. How are they supposed to know or you just show up for work every day and you're very half hazard about the way you go about things. Maybe you're. On. Your files are organized I mean but. The thing is like I think that entrepreneurs are like a type I mean. In that I feel like with entrepreneurs week. Show up like that and still be successful. You know what I mean, and so I I think that's the norm personally I do. I mean I've talked to enough entrepreneurs now that private message me and say Oh my God. My business and Super Successful Entrepreneurs Oh my God my business. If anybody sees this mess, I would die. It is really it's disorienting. Nightmare mess and you know, and that's because you're unless you're an entrepreneur who is teaching systems and organization or your personal. You know organizer, Mo or you're an accountant or something like that. Most entrepreneurs like this is this is the. Achilles heel, you know it's the weakest part, the systems and the organization and stop so. Nobody should feel bad about that well Jan. You can't have mastered because I was just blown away by some of the systems that you shared with me and the processes that you've built. That you share in your program, people because literally am I have the experience of taking on to people. I was blown away by from the very beginning. You know with just the process on the applicant that I had but also hurry get-go. I couldn't decide like I. Literally couldn't decide and interestingly enough I took, both because I was like. You know what I'm going to try both of them and I'm one ended up. Having her daughter ended up being pretty sick and having personal issues so I was so sad, and this is the big bat whole loyalty thing I could feel the sadness on her side as well. You know it was a mutual like. Oh I just. I don't want upset. You don't want to you, know 'cause. Hurt to your business or you know it was so beautiful. Yet so I still had one. You know I was like okay. Know so it was released turned out I'm happy am I even said to her? I still have the door open to that girl if she does. If things a turnaround that I'm so happy to take her back on, because it was a very positive experience so Yeah, it's beautiful, and it's amazing to to realize and I. Do feel good that you after saying that most people's businesses. Arbat Messi in the in the background. I also feel like you know it's. It's part of the process. Personally. It's visionary way of thinking like you're like Oh ideas ideas ideas the entrepreneur. We need like implementers to put the ideas into place, and that's one of the gifts that I've really. Found with with having the assistance I see this I. Want this to happen, but if I don't have someone to do it for me, it just gets lost or is now these things out being done, and that's the golden part. Is these things that I've wanted being done being done, and and I'll give an example, and that blew me away recently, because at general also is like a Ninja for like these little tips tech things I was showing to my friend is ever knows okay, so I never really used it, and then there's this web clipper thing it's amazing. I was like Oh my God. This is old. So. I was showing it to my friend WHO's like not into this world at all and she's like. When did you become so techy and I'm like well? I did productivity chorus. WHAT MY FRIEND JAN! Better shortcuts. She's like. Wow, oh, my God so anyways. I had this whole like I set. This process might be a about like an help. A reporter is so. This site where they sent emails every day with reporters looking for information about different things, so he just scans to see like. Oh, it's something about funkaway firm whatever and he would crop it with the evernote. Put it into my Trello. Into the trump card for me, and then inevitably it would just get tossed to the side for me and I would I would miss the days on the expiry of it and I wouldn't do because I've. Sit At my, and that's not my zone of genius, so I'm like. How can I make this even easier for me? Plus know on. It's like this is the brain. This is the way of like really being around. Jen has trained me this, but I think you'll love it. I basically said Noah Vox. There is so much better if you see something on like do it. If you tag an article I think I could contribute to put it in a like. Put it into the trump card, but also boxer it to me, so he just reads it out to me on boxer. Boxer and I will reply. It'd be like okay reply to the reporters saying Bob Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah, Blah Blah Blah, and then it sense, or if there's a little bit of information, I need to give him I literally did this. The other day I went online found an article that I'd already submitted about like functions for your office and cropped. It sent, said here. There's an article. Take what you need out of it to send back to that. That reporter don't invest it. It was done in like three minutes whereas I know I would have liked soft and fast over as it for like at least half an hour, so it's just the little car. Okay, there's that we can do that. We can figure out in our business to make it easier there so much genius, and what you just said like I'm so excited. I got to write it down because I want share that because help a reporter out the. The petition just mentioned is for everyone. Okay, so it's H., A. R. O., and they basically they look for experts in every field that you could imagine and like what Patricia was saying. You have to be timely, but it's everything from the Wall Street. Journal to just you know smaller blogs, but it's a great way to get your yourself out there, but it's time consuming so this is a wonderful wonderful task to give to va while that was really, that's smart. So good, and also you mentioned vox it. I don't know if everybody knows what that is. Vauxhall, an APP that it's like a walkie talkie on your phone like like a messaging out, but your va doesn't accrue any data. Usage. It's I don't know how to describe it. It's like a little walkie talkie on your phone, and you can instantly communicate with each other. It's very very cool like what's out, but I don't know like it better I love as it tastes that cool, walkie talkie sound. Does. So true, but the Z. I told you. I love gadgets a but The other thing that I wanted to say. Is that when you were saying like you're visionary, right and we have ideas ideas ideas, but it really matters if we can execute execute. ex-kiwi gotta get done, so imagine the scenario where you're like you see in fact, just did this the other day like I need to start. One of my students was. She's pinterest expert and she was sharing how she's getting. Fifty five cent leads on Pinterest with her Pinterest, ads and And I know for a long time. Pinterest is like one of the best kept secrets right for for online advertising and lists building, and all that kind of stuff, so it's been on my radar, so I bought a bit dress. Course I gave it to my Ba. You learn this. You come up with a plan and Yeah, that's like I. I had the vision. And she's going to make it happen, so that's not gonNA. Make me money if I learned pinterest and I spent a pinning. How's that GONNA? That's not gonNA work. That's I am spinning my wheels. I could feel very busy. I can leave the office at the at three o'clock and say good for me. I finished pinterest course and I did ten pins, but the the real voice inside knows that I didn't get. Right I just was spending my. Totally totally I. Absolutely of us and this has been such a great conversation. What would you say to people? Who are you know? On the fence about outsourcing anything in their lives. I would say that I mean I. Guess it would depend on their reason why they weren't but I would say that if it's just sort of a general number one. If it's a feeling like you can't like, you're not there yet. I believe that this is fundamental as like. If you're a business person as having Wifi or electricity in your business that you don't wait until you get to a certain place to get, help you get help. You don't even think about going on this journey alone number. Number One to have that sort of mindset about it I think is important and to believe that because it's true like you said you wish you would have known this years ago. Me Too I, mean I figured it out a couple of years in, but I wish I would have known that in the beginning to have that attitude, and especially at these rates like if you can't afford four dollars an hour, then you know. Maybe that's just something to think about, and then if you are. are feeling like you don't know what you would give to your va like. Maybe you really don't have any things that you immediately you're thinking are repeatable that you do because you are showing up and you're just sort of like just putting out fires and sort of taking what comes each day. This is for you, too. Because you know what I've got. I don't know the exact link I'll give it to you, but I've got a list of. It's called the ultimate a task list. List at. If you look on that list, it'll really make it clear to you that there so many things you have to give it to the that you don't have to be completely organized and all that you know you're finding someone who's going to go on this journey with you, and because you're starting at such a low rate, you and your va have the mindset of building something together growing together. You're gonNA, grow with you so it's okay if you start off as a hot mess. Oh yeah, exactly, but it's not sense. I've heard of some people say they're keener is coming tide you the house before the combs, and I'm like you don't need to tidy the house like you don't need to have everything organized before they come to do the stuff like that. It's like it's messy. Yes, have though at that aptitude or that organization. They'll bring it in. You know I see some of the things that might be a dozen I'm like Oh my God. He's so Oregon. Again people do it better. They better than you do it and The other thing is like you know how you said like. If you were doing it to the hero reporter to to the hero articles you would. Fuss over it, and it would probably take you an hour and it took him three minutes. That's because that's not his. I mean he cares, but like we have all these darlings, right? We have all new loom darlings. These precious are links, and so we do that. We get in there and they don't have that emotional attachment to stuff about. Anybody you know whether it is. Whoever it is and instead, they're just going to be a lot more efficient about it. I mean if I were to bring someone into declutter my house for example or functions. For example imagine. Yeah. If only I knew someone but. It would be very easy for that person to instantly say like that needs to go and this I think whereas for me, it's good. It's so much harder for the person because we're GONNA. You know fuss over or this. has this meaning in this as that meaning so well? Just only other thing I would say because this is really important is just and I think the older we get. This becomes more clear because we hear it all the time. That like you know, time is the one thing you can't get back, but until that becomes. To internalize that. Until that becomes truly something that you believe with all your heart, and that you understand I should say that you really can grasp that that we're GONNA die. As hard as that is for me to believe, sometimes that I'm GonNa die like I'm GonNa die, and and I hate it I never wanNA leave the earth but I'm GonNa so like I don't to fill it with laundry and I. Don't want to fill it doing the stuff. That does it fulfill me and I don't want to spend time with people who don't. That I don't find rewarding, or or or you know I. Don't want to have relationships that aren't nourishing I. Don't and the older I get, the easier it is for me to just be like nope. Goodbye done not doing that I wanted to do that instead. I! I just think the sooner any of us can figure that out like the better off. We're all going to be. That is so true and I recently was at a workshop, called the art of living and dying. Yes it was a very deep one week workshop and one of the quotes that I just walked away with. Is that we need to live as if death is on our shoulder, and the thing is we don't live as if drafted on her shoulder, because we even though it is, you know because it could be tomorrow next week and that book the five regrets of the dying. Is that you? You know they didn't have ended up time with their family. They didn't have enough fun. It wasn't that they didn't clean the laundry or didn't you know their house enough? You know it was definitely not about cleaning or laundry or time it was all about the important things, so that sense of like living as if doctors on our shoulder gives you a totally different perspective on you know the fact that. We are blessed with much life in these amazing people that we can spend time with and do sharing our lives and doing our thing and. The juicy part of what you're helping. People do now is really do what they're meant to be doing on. The world like entrepreneurs do what they're meant to do have. Helped them in doing this and getting their message in China, so it's so beautiful and Jen. My last question is what are you reading right now? I am reading I'm reading two books right now. Denise unlike late to the Party for Denise Duffield Thomas, and also the desire maps Oh nice by what's her face now? Lord! Yeah, honestly those those books are like my typical. Tight books I'm usually reading very. Tactical Books. You know that are very like do this do this. I'm always reading like heavy marketing books in these feel a little bit more wooed to me, but they are yeah. I had a better answer for you know. There's grace good books this year, but I'm a big fan of Denise Denise actually and I mash in the Philippines when I was eighteen. So we have actually been friends for that length of time. The reason I have an online business is because of Denise 'cause I was like. She this online business. Thing I'M GONNA. Go for it and go online, and literally has been kind of like mentor visionary in part of her world for a long time in her program, so am. It's so fun that you in that you mentioned that and we actually met in the Philippines. Believe it or not of all places I. Got Goosebumps really when you said that? I talk about like a person who is so relatable and somebody who's like a front row mindset and just went for it and you know. I mean I'm so happy for her success because she's really such a kind person, you could just tell on this whole conversation about sourcing like for you know if we were to have someone who's the ideal model of outsourcing like pretty much everything I've stayed with Denison Mark Manny Times. Times and you know there's the nanny. There's housekeeper. There's you know her virtual assistance. There's whatever the cheat doesn't want to spend their time doing. She just does it and be. She's created a business that that that is like that. It's time for her children for what she loves. Yes, yes, as she is so funny, because she just she just did a post that jumped out at me on Instagram, which she did a photo shoot, and then she basically was like. I know I look glamorous, but like you can't even imagine what went into this like Sh-. Short video series that I created this is all manufactured, and it was made possible by all the people behind the scenes and she re. She shouted out all the people in detail, not just tag them, but she was like my amazing bibliographer, and then she gave the name and I told her I said like. I admire the way that you are shining a light on all of these people and. And she said Oh like I couldn't live. She replied back. I couldn't live without these people, and and and you gotta shout them out, and that's true of virtual assistance as well I know a lot of people who will really try to keep their. They don't want anybody to steal their. As you know, know, and so they're. They don't really maybe mentioned them, but. You know my my va has become. She Co wrote my program with me and she's like I'm turning her into the Philippine a brief Leo. I love IT I. Love It! I love it. That's so beautiful. Thank you so much, Jen, how can people find you and follow you? I! Know that if you have Alexa, she does briefings everyday. She's also as I said I think that. One of the things about Jan is that she's an early adopter and want to follow that. If Janice doing something, we all need to be doing it because she's really kind of like ahead of the wave, I, loved history about the tapes, but I think it's it's the same with everything so Jen How can people find follow you and? Maybe do your new course. You've got a link for the course. You'RE GONNA down there, right? And then in general Gentler Saner dot com like if you go to Jen Lehner Dot, com. You'll have access to my blog. There'll be a little pop up. That will ask if you want to subscribe to the election flash briefing, and that's probably the best way to find me, and then for the front row CEO Course Patricia has a link that you can stick with us. Thank you Jan, thank you so much. I absolutely love chatting you. You touting to you hearing your story and and inspiring others I hope that you're listening. Please just have asked where you're asked. What are the things that you're doing that? You don't like and how? How can you get someone else to do for you to outsource it? Because honesty is going to free up the time fee to restart shining your life and unconsciously creating the life that you want because that's what this is. All Abbas bunks Jan.. They so much.

Jen Philippines Va virtual assistant Patricia Logan facebook reporter Jen Ptolemy Ohio Acton Academy Gen Leonard Shaker Heights Ohio Pinterest Jake America Denise Denise Australia
Smokey Returns!!  Also, Andy Husbands Talks New BBQ Book & BBQ Business!

The BBQ Central Show

1:05:29 hr | 5 months ago

Smokey Returns!! Also, Andy Husbands Talks New BBQ Book & BBQ Business!

"This is Jimmy burned from Melbourne Ohio. And you're listening to barbecue central here for the really big barbecue show Boeing. We Cook because we have to and we grill because we want to get me break. Show a big fan blowing here in the in the crackle Sean Polio to four. I'm just like a dog shit right now just like that. We are in the second hour it is the barbecue central show. We talk about live fire stuff. We cover the industry like ESPN covers sports. If you missed the first hour never fear we're recording. You can get it on Wednesday second hour on Thursday but you should try and plan on watching this show live before you die still to come on the show tonight. One of my favorite people to talk about live fire and food with in general andy husbands owner of the smoke shop. Boeing. We're GONNA be talking about the smoke shops backyard barbecue. A new book that he has coming out and he's up there in the New England area so always exciting to talk with Andy. Follow me socially if you will add. Bbq Central Show instagram twitter. Tick Tock Snapchat. Remember rule number three or four or five. Maybe don't snappy snap on snapchat and you can follow me slash. Bbq Central Show on facebook or give that page alike. If you'd like by the way I have gotten an inordinate amount of personal page friend week when we come with friend requests. Now I want to tell you I've said it before I'm going to say it again. Probably have to say it again. In a number of months have hundreds in the queue waiting to be approved. I'm here to tell you. I'm not approving any personal friend requests. Don't go to my personal page because you know me and submitted friend requests. I'm not going to accept it not because I don't like you because I'm not doing anything with my personal page. I don't post anything about me. My wife tags meet a bunch of stuff. I don't post anything about it. I have the personal page so I can have the show page. Because that's what facebook does they hold you hostage. They make you make a personal page so you can have a show page so if you're waiting for me to accept your personal friend requests. It's not happening. I'm sorry I meant that it's not happening and again it's not because I don't like you or that. We can't be Internet friends instead. We can be Internet friends if you go to the Barbecue. Central show page slash. Bbq Central Show. And give me a like then you direct message if you want. Go ahead interact with me there. But I'm not doing it on personal page because again if I never had the show. I would never have social media quite frankly. I'm not that interesting. Hey did you know that the best moments of the Barbecue Central Show in ten minutes or less as coming up episode one hundred fifteen taking you back to three eight twenty twelve one of the biggest barbecue events of the year of course is the Houston livestock at Rodeo contest. During this segment I was joined by the pit master of Texas pepper. Jelly Craig Sherry. Who was also a past? Ibca president and we talked about the Houston Livestock Rodeo event and how it operates and the prestige that goes along with winning it. And it's certainly not for the money but it is for the belt buckle and the bragging rights that reach far beyond the bank who needs cash. How data can win a big great belt. Buckle make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Everything will be great. That's all you need to do. Subscribe to the podcast alright. Let's see here. Well I have to rework a few items here or did it go. Oh yeah they're just getting ready for my pal andy husbands who was coming up here next segment but looking here. We've got a phone call coming in and Oh about that. We go to Shaker Heights. A right caller you're on the air. Joe CRAG monkey smokey smokey. I thought you jumped off a bridge a few weeks ago and that was the end token offer group of my friends. I A tree and drew me to another tree. That brand talked me to a whole `nother branch. I got a whole new lease on life. Now I feel great. I'm alive. Wow that's very cartoony. I can't believe that actually happened. Call My name. This is my life twenty four seven. Wow well that is one harrowing tale. I'm glad you're still with us. Okay five I'm still smoke fire but it seems to be okay right now. I mean I'm looking at it and not on fire. Wow guaranteed so. What have you been up to in order to get that message out? Have you been doing the standard bag? Move of trolling facebook groups. She never influence or great. Oh right right now. I'm having another party that you're not invited. To course we are having a social media influence or party ten thousand followers up except for me. I missed twenty five twenty five. I thought you were looking for forty seven. I was at forty seven and everyone thought every dead and you gave out the wrong instagram handle. Don't you remember? I'm I apologize for that? I didn't realize that was giving out the wrong handled. You gave out at bb. Hugh and I barbecue out there. Sorry so you're having an influence on his party who's around my best friend. No first off. I see him over there right now. You can also introduced to big grain cried Fannie de Lump Andrea Greg. Yeah all right. Big grand cried. We over there If he looks like Turkey some sort of Mexican beer we have Mickey man meet this. Can you get into say? Hi Vicki. Oh Nice God podcast brought. Wow you sounds pretty angry. And then he's always angry. No party is complete without Maddie and really bad. You can you. Will they say hi? Hello Hey Barry how man it's A? It's a veritable Cornucopia of social media. Influencers in wow influence. Our Party nicer the biggest. Oh my God Greg Yes. Greg getting scared again. What's happening on facebook? Mickey Vann Meet City Karonga by party. Yeah wrote a Greg. What if you're scared about corona stop it? It'd be bigger things to putting on fire. We need a well. I'm not a doctor but I'm happy to help if I can get rid of all right. Well it's not a disease. Virus stopped talking about Luther. Fifty Four. How does cut dropping my cry? Mickey's bad around. All right. All Right. I happen to know a little bit about this. I was just on. Cdc DOT GOV and. Here's what they say so. Make sure that you take notes number one. Get PLENTY OF REST. Let me help Craig. Nevermind figuring Craig's tapping in the corner already for some reason okay. Number to drink plenty of liquids could cut the cost of driving by driving through. We have cops showing up Greg. Everyone knows Gerona. Mickey man means he's over there drinking plenty of liquids chugging that Mexican Beer I talked about. I can't believe all right. Well Chuck into number featuring Pat. Greg were out. Oh dear well number four on the list is Hot showers seem to help with sore throats. Chris Matty KP running size. Get me shower right now. Oh all right. Mattie you're running inside I can hear the shower at home. What is going on Shelly Shelly? Okay all right. They're safe house weird right now. The last one. I heard that keeping warm can help those in fact it could be yes. You're quick quick. My best friend in the world baby back maniac key theater go over there right now and get cool to smoke fired they wore. It sounds like a perfectly safe idea who god turn it up and put under get warmer. I don't want to back six hundred. Odd Kidding what. What was the reason. You're having the influence or party again. Eight hundred four hundred pinkos from zero to six hundred seven seconds. This entire need dodd. Greg Flood Oh my God. What's going on? Like maniacs head is on fire quite ghost rider. He's running around. The party's over. His head is on fire and Craig or Craig on firing his head. Oh my God. This guy can't catch a break Mickey. He was already covered in Bonn Germany. So this house is catching on fire. Matt Kiki I'd see them still showering. They're saying good. Dad Greg there on fire no. This is a terrible turn of events. He's catching everybody on. Fire were parked yard barbecue in the backyard. Fire accuse you know at Greg? Plus Hubris go out. Kevin Coleman I got smokey. No did it happen again. I can an only hope that perhaps another tree branch or three. I mean you can't be lucky that many times in a row. How many people have a bridge in their backyard sounds ridiculous? He's either the most lucky or unlucky person I've ever heard. Holy Mon was quite a phone call. We are back with Andy husbands as soon as I get done telling you about. South side market and barbecue by the way thoughts and prayers to barbecue. Smokey hopefully somehow he made it down safely from jumping off yet another bridge. It was four eighty bridge last news. Able TO ESCAPE WOK. Hei established in one thousand. Nine hundred south side is the oldest barbecue joint in Texas. They've been owned and operated for the three generations by the same family famously. Original beef sausage course ground and a natural poor casing authentic central Texas Barbecue. All meats including prime briskets are smoke the low and slow for many hours over Real Texas Post Oakwood the ship nationwide via the online store at southside market dot com. They also ship fresh and smoked sausages. Nationwide custom customers can choose to ship now or later. Include custom gift notes mail multiple addresses without additional charges. Everything's ship in vacuum sealed to ensure freshness and ease of preparation for the customer. All the meats are processed on the onsite. Usda inspected facility and the onsite meat market has fresh and smoked products custom. Orders are welcome. If you want to eat there you can to restaurants are there for your choosing Elgin Texas since eighteen eighty two and bastrop Texas twenty fourteen grocery distribution through Texas and many surrounding states. Ten percent off right now if you go to south side market dot com and use Promo Code. Bbq central word lower case. That's a bbq central at checkout. Not good for your first order. Second third and twentieth ten percent off your online order at southside market dot com with Promo Code. Bbq Central. Andy husbands coming up. Stick around. Be Right back. I hope Barbecue. Smokey is all right. Really show giving you a monthly visit from Dr a barbecue. A man actually named Me Dad. The author of a Barbecue Bible bloggers reviewers competitors manufacturers by the dozens as the barbecues central. Show once again. Here's your host. Greg remedy this portion of the shell being brought to you by Smithfield Smithfield dot com throughout the grilling season for recipes as well as tips and tricks from world championship. Pitmasters like Chris Lilley Darren Ward Ernest. Sirvan tastes child Cridland mouth-watering flavors no artificial ingredients smithfield. Fresh is quite simply the finest pork money can buy. And it's trusted choice of world championship pitmasters so head on over to Smithfield DOT COM and hook up with all the INFO. Hey my guest in the second hour and accomplished pitmasters chef restaurant tour and he has a few books. Already to the credit co-authored too. His Buddy Chris Heart there of IQ which we've had on the show as well and tonight we talk about a new book. The smoke shops backyard barbecue that he also partnered with William Salazar's we raised through the hotline. And welcome back friend of the show. Andy Husband's handy. I'm absolutely fabulous. Appreciate you making time for the show. You WanNa fun fact here Andy. Yes fun fact. August eleven two thousand nine first time you ever appeared on the show. Wow yes I don't know if you recall but You're on a show called Hell's kitchen at the time and I. I don't even remember how I was able to contact you. Maybe it was through some PR hack through the show because the show was still. I mean it was already done filming when you are on the show for the TV watcher. I mean I was Steve. Right in the middle of the season and I had fallen madly in love with you from a viewer standpoint going. Wow they continually put this guy up for elimination. There's a lot of swearing going on. But most importantly week after week he continues to press through and he doesn't get voted out and it's like giving the Middle Finger all these people you know when you look back on. Hell's kitchen if you ever even bother looking back at Hell's kitchen. What are like the first one or two things that come to your mind about that experience I think the brutality of it. It's it's pretty mentally challenging and I don't mean like a game of chess I mean it's hard and what I got through it off. I had some issues. My head really did like making decisions having confidence. It goose with your head a lot so it was. It was brutal. Did it a send you to any specific point of culinary skill or I mean did you did you know. Was there a win win for you out of any of that? No Win and the thing people need to know is that it's not. It's not real right so I was put something. That'd be perfect that you look. I owned restaurants. At this time I knew how to cook wasn't some amateur. And they would take it and just smash that place. That sucks so you your mind starts. Melting don't WanNa go home but you wanna do everything right and it's just it's craziness it's really a intensity but the food was crab. As far as I'm concerned. The food was crap. What was your interaction? Time like with Gordon Randy was a just what you saw on television or would he hang out like when the cameras weren't on chat with you guys or you only saw him like about right when service starts basically news t the camera. That's when you seem you do not see any other time. Is it better to not have any potential rapport building time with him? Then so he can just be a you. Know a raging a-hole all the way through and there's no personal bond there to mess with better for him Brian. That's the reality of it. Right shows him. The ARC of the show is America. Look at this piece of Doodoo I have and then the end it's America. Look what I have for you. I made you a chef and you can now work in one of my restaurants in Vegas or whatever. I probably the guy that one my episode. I'm not sure if he's still in jail but he was definitely in jail for a while for some stupid like after after he wanted us in jail. Yes I wouldn't hire that guy if you paid me. You know that to be true. I know for fact. Wow The guy who came in second place my friend. Dave should have one and he's like so upset he's like why didn't I win? But you should have one. That's how reality. Yeah well I used to watch that comedy show before they really trashed it Like last comic standing in the year. That Ralphie may lost a dat fan. I was like Oh my God. This is the biggest travesty I have ever seen in. My life was a obvious talent who you know. I mean whatever happened to debt fan. He won that TV show and then he was gone off the face of the literally six minutes later and then Ralphie may continue to steam onto international stardom You know untimely demise me but he was huge so Anyway let's talk about barbecue. Of course we're going to be talking about This book as well the smoke shops backyard barbecue. So is this thing out for sale right now. Can PEOPLE GET THEIR MITTS on it? All all reputable booksellers. We'll have that. Does that mean all reputable booksellers? Maybe some some non reputable as well. Hopefully you know what that means but it should be sold anywhere. Any local bookstore Amazon Barnes and noble. Name it all right then just called the smoke shops backyard barbecue. We're talking with Andy. Husbands Andy. Husbands DOT COM is website. If you WANNA or a little bit more about Andy so as we look at Andy The cook I would assume that. Maybe you were intrigued with cooking as you're coming up a maybe come from family that was into cooking and you're able to learn. Moms or dads secret recipes or something like that or I mean. Where did you not even close ninety? No and my mom's a great cook now but Back then no she herself A. My father weren't great cooks was actually I was what you call the Latchkey kid and so I stayed home by myself and my sister was older and gone and I just love to cook like it was something that I would. I learned how to make donuts. Like I'm GONNA grab this joy of cooking book and I'm going to look at it and read it and figure out how to make don't like I would learn how to make things just because I thought it was fun when you get older. Do you know that this is a passion of yours that you want to follow into a profession? Yes so what I was choosing Colleges Johnson and Wales was my my choice. My number one choice. I wanted to go to school for cocaine. News is what I wanted to do. I father wasn't super psyched. He wanted me to be a lawyer or a minister out. Wow which if you knew me. Well you'd find both of those hilarious so I will you get a job. I got a job. And he's like I'm a guy love and so then I went to school for and I loved it and it's just all I've ever wanted to do was work and work in restaurants. Now if I'm not mistaken I think both you and Chris had spent time at some point or another at East Coast Grill under Chris Leissner. Yes is that where the lie fire a passion comes from. Where were you always into cooking with flying? No absolutely. That's where the restaurant before I worked actually had a live fire as well and one of the reasons I was able to get my job at the east coast. Girls like I had experience working at Grill But no with Chris and I worked there and not just a passion for live fire but a passion for barbecue because Christmas Joe was doing some Barbecue and passion for big flavors. I mean. This is what Chris was known for the Thrill of the grill. That is the best grilling out. Look out there course. I have a growing cookbook. Also Chris's far better. It's an amazing book. Yeah I mean. It's one of the standards that people continued to mention of course East Coast not in business anymore but widely considered especially in the New England area. Anybody that was into barbecue or just Li- flame cooking. Chris was like the first name that came off Tom. Do you know what he's up to now by chance. I see him around. He's kind of a life of leisure. You know he's consulting with restaurants. He's taken it easy. You know traveling everything he deserves and and a lot more no doubt. We'RE TALKING WITH ANDY. Husbands SAYING HUSBANDS DOT COM website. So when we talk about writing books Things that come to buy mind of what I would never want to do. Ever writing books is right up there one. A and one B reading books and writing books. I think both that don't turn me on at all. People could approach me and offered me a lot of money. I would realize that while I will probably want to take the money writing the book to me. That seems really hard. So what is the inspiration for you? To write. Book is to pass along something that you know in hopes of inspiring somebody or giving them tools to be a little bit more successful than they really are so great question and reading. A book is fun for me. I think it's a little bit like children. You you write a book. Can you go? I'm never ever doing that again. And then a couple of years later like maybe I'll write another one What's important you know? I'll talk about Chris Harper and I is. It's important we have something to say. You know we can't just write a book that doesn't work so for us. Like pit master. Which is the last book we wrote together. And it's really phenomenally solves well We wanted to talk about regionality a barbecue in our passion for Barbecue. So we have. Would you have this love? It's it's like writing a song. If I music I would write a song about barbecue so I can't and I can't sing so I write a book about Barbecue because that's what I love and the newest book smoke shops backyard barbecue. It's like an Ode to Barbecue. The whole premise came from tuffy stone. Saying nobody cooks brisket for themselves and I heard that and it was like an Aha moment for me. And like yeah. This is barbecue is out celebration and family. And I don't mean just close family. I mean your family and your friends gatherings and that's what that book is about when you're putting it together. Are you able to draw back? On the experience of wicked. Good Burger wicked good barbecue. Pit Master and go. Hey I have a depth of knowledge at this point how to construct how the process goes to where this time around on the newest book. The process is a little bit easier. Can you not correlate experience with ease of writing a next book go? Somebody knows a better process. Our process is always a challenge trying to figure out the best way to organize it again with my music references. Some artists write a melody. Some artist write a poem. Some artists write a title. I let a title and they usually. I'll change the thousand times but so I read a title and then I kind of dream about what I think that will be so if it was Macaroni Salad. Then we just go from there and we kind of gold will. What could we do? What do we want to do what we wanted to taste like? And then you kind of write it from there. It's a really kind of fun process to to write a recipe and then handed off to the testers. Who Bring it back to you. Using your words they make it. It's a it's a really process to to get to try and go. Yeah this is good. This part isn't able to play around with a IT'S A it's a funnel process but regarding your question about other books for instance if I need a man as I spent five days making the best management possible in Waikiki Burgers so find a man is recipe. I will use that one. Lucky lucky enough. I own the rights to it so I use it. Could you not use it otherwise I book? You can't use someone else's recipe you'll get in big trouble that's how plagiarism. Yes within these days and I know this is why won't name the person but Well we're courageous on the show. Andy so you know the person but I know someone who had a book deal. I know someone that turned into a book and it through a magic machine and it says it can tell you if it's like any other book they do as students in in Baber and so they're able to tell you no copying and this guy lost his whole deal just because I think he deliberately meant to do it. I think he was just sampling and maybe did a little too much. I think a lot of people do that in college. Writing term papers hung over from a hard night of drinking and realizing I have a term paper to turn in next day Yeah so we don't WanNA play dry number one So how does the book deal? Come together Are you approached by publishers? Saying Hey we're looking for some barbecue stuff. I mean we're not in the spring yet but obviously this is going to be a time of year now or over the next three months or so. You're going to see a lot of new barbecue and grilling books. You see him every year as much as I thought that like this thing would go away. The content wouldn't go away but it would be more on. Some type of a digital platform. Cookbooks are still around. People still want the tackle versions in something they can refer back to be an electronic thing. So are you actively have an idea and you're in search of to go pitch or somebody going. Hey Andy you've done it before you know let's partner so you can get another thing out more the ladder if you want to write a book. Let's see you've never written a book and you want to write a book the question they're GonNa ask you. Why would anybody want your book? That's the question if you've never written a book and you like they're like Greg. Why would anybody want to write a book book from you and music again when they go like? What makes you special? You sound like led Zeppelin. Why does anybody care so you need to have some kind of crowd to be able to write a book as as Your First Book? You've got a right introduction. You've got a right sample chapters. You've gotta read simple recipes. You gotta do all sorts of stuff for me. I just type type of email to my editor earned go because my book idea. And they're like okay. That's pretty much how it happens so used. Yeah I've given them ideas that they're like maybe not so much You know so. You know I think for one for while I was on a kick that I wanted to write a book of a hundred recipes of keen walk. And they're like that sounds fun. It probably won't sell so I was cooking a lot of key one. I thought that would be fun. Are there a hundred recipes for Keen Wa enough money? I'll write? That will write that book. What the Hell is even keen. Watt rice a rice thing or clues the oldest gray. It's is looks like couscous. It's it's the world's oldest grape the INCAS used to eat. It has more protein than any other grain. Good good like how do you make a delicious like? What's your favorite dish? I like to ask you like to make it like couscous. Sometimes I'd also like to make it instead of STIR FRY. I put the keene. Wyan there Great for breakfast with nuts and dried fruit and maple syrup keen. What Yeah. I don't know maybe I'm missing out. I mean the Steven Reich Lynn. I'm like the worst eating in like a seven year old. I have expansive pal and I do try a lot of stuff but then he starts saying well have you tried this and then it's like no and then I realized maybe I'm not as expansive as I once thought. Let's talk about what is inside smoke shop barbecue book. What is somebody GONNA find? That is going to draw them to your book and things you wanted to get across in this up. Yeah I mean so again as I said it's about celebration and family the backbone is barbecue and pretty much. Everything I do is backbone is barbecue but I feel that a lot of times barbecue people get pigeonholed into. Oh you just Cook Barbecue and the all the barbecue cooks. I know do so much more. So what we did is all different chapters we would taco Tuesday chapter a fancy chapter. Brunch chapter So we just did all these different kinds of fun chapters that are kind of based on barbecue and greater you know like city Ham. We DO OR ROBOT ROPE. Avia off or for Which is smoked? Brisket kind of Puerto Rican style? So I'll just different style. It's really cool. Great desserts drinks really good drinks. What's your favorite drink in the book? The the cold brew Coconut Martini. It is tasty really cold brew. Coffee cold brew coffee and coconut. Coconut liquor awesome. Do you have a favorite way of making cold brew coffee because I really got into well? I almost really got into Cobra. And then I saw these contraptions that you had to get in order to make it right and then I was quick. Low off of it. So but how do you do so you WanNa do course ground three to one such one cup of coffee three cups of water put stir it put on your counter story? Maybe another couple of hours tomorrow. You coffee you don't have to refrigerate it or anything either you just let it sit out then you strain it bill and then you put in the frigerator easy enough so stronger. Coffee more coffee in the same amount of water. Yeah but I don't like it too strong. It's pretty good. That way. Three to one is usually you wanna go cold brew known for the smoothness and in the better flavour Blah Blah All right so the cold brew Martini. Di Is it a gin or a backer vodka. Yeah what's your favorite vodka a great question so I actually don't believe in great Vodkas I don't there is such a thing. I like vodka because they're too similar in the end. It's too similar when you add into something you probably don't know I'd probably stay away from Mr Boston but if you have that out there but Mr Boston because one of the ones we have on here you know but Stoli's fine absolutes gray office fantastic but I would bet you next time I see you. I'll bet you a hundred bucks that we all know low end four high end. You can't pick out the women's however it's one of those weeks but other ones are certainly different like gin would be a different thing Bourbon would probably be. I don't know maybe is Burgundy. Think Bourbon is is is a different field. I mean it certainly like the most in vogue spirit out there right now and probably has been for the last five years or so People really tell the difference between a pappy. Van Winkle seven thousand and a Baker's mark. Yeah we we have over two hundred. Two hundred and fifty American whiskeys restaurant really New England New England's largest whiskey collection. So can I pick out? Pappy out of five of them. Maybe not but I can tell you pretty much well or drinking and what the flavors are where it comes from pretty close to it. Two hundred fifty re. We were tasting all the time. We have an unbelievable Beverage director Michael Boat. And he's he's super super talented. So it's a lot of training. A lot of learning absolutely is so are do you have whatever the the highest per ounce pour is out there on the market that pepys whatever? Happy with what we have we sell without. It goes for about eighty dollars a shot and we saw it out when we get we get it prematurely. October and we're probably sold by now so I mean what's your by on that bottle 'cause I love the business of business. Are you kidding me? I mean I'm a business guy at heart All right can you stand by for just one second here and I'll tell people about the barbecues and then we'll talk about a little bit more about the book and then the rest Rumpus Guru. Oh yeah you like to use it? Andy husbands endorsed barbecue. All right standby come right back and I will talk to you quickly about the barbecue room. So there the longest running sponsor the show of course and they are the creators of the automatic temperature control. Technology originally started by Fred burkle and now track running the business. Of course Bob is going to be on next week. I believe we're going to be announcing some new products that are about four weeks out from released. There was little soft mention couple days ago. But it's probably a good month or so before you can actually get your hands. We'll talk about that but you can also take a look at their ceramic cooker that has a built in power draft fan the Monolith Barbecue Guru Edition Grill. They also have a bunch of great accessories. If you'd like to add some capacity ceramic cooker. They had the rib ring. You can do six. Saint Louis Style racks right there in the ring effectively doubling the capacity of most ceramic cookers. Plus a whole bunch of other stuff. You want to cook or you can get the shotgun cooker. That's doing really well. Great capacity. Of course it's made to run one of the Barbecue Gurus and they have a bunch of different gurus to offer as well so depending on what your tech level is what your budget is like. I WANNA be your if any questions. Call them eight hundred. Two eight eight g you are you. That's eight hundred two eight guru of the website Barbecue Guru Dot com that's B. Q. G. U. R. U. DOTCOM. Barbecuer continues to be a breakthrough in barbecue technology and husbands. Coming up stick around. We'll be right back. Continuing to produce incredibly mediocre content in an exceptionally professional way. You're listening and watching the barbecue central show once again. Here's your host Greg Ramp and sports in a shopping brought to you by Pitt Barrel Cooker. The most unbelievable outdoor cooking device on the planet currently available in two sizes. But there's going to be enough sized coming shortly whether you're a beginner or a pro definitely cookie you want to add to the arsenal visit pit barrel cooker dot com and tell barbecue central such ten years of business and they're going to be at the NBA Qa hosting parties. And the first weekend in April. So if we're GONNA be out there hanging out. Fell Noah an amber and all the gang. Hey now all right. We'RE BACK WITH ANDY. Husbands here from The smoke shop which is Like where are you specifically? I don't say New England or Boston you know but were you at specifically me right now. No no the small shop. Of course yeah. What is your address? Andy we all want to come. And say hey. We have one in the seaport of Boston. That's three four. Three Congress one in Kendall Square in Cambridge Mass. We have one in assembly row which Somerville soon to be in the in the where the TD bank north garden is in something called hub hall and soon to be at Harvard Square so worked for common all all all smoke shops. Yeah I'm no mathematician. But that's like almost five locations once. They're all running right. You're correct all right so you have obviously identified an operation. That is good for business. That is attracting people to come in and spend money and eat food to the point where you can grow. I mean five locations within the city is is pretty good. I can't name five restaurants that are in Cleveland that I mean I can name three. But it's a burger joint from Michael Simon but I don't think there's five of a similar business mindset that you have so in Boston Super Competitive There's a lot of food offerings there so to have five barbecue restaurants that are basically. Is it all running the same menu? Same concept same everything just five different places across the city. Ninety percents ninety percents. We moved in and out and Stephen. Audi and locations are bartenders. We'll do special drinks and we lose special menu items to different locations but yeah all about the same. Baltin big provincial. So people will. If you're in Boston you don't always come to Cambridge. And if you're in Harvard Square. Know it's hard to park in Harvard Square so really the people just around there. Go stay in Harvard Square. So it's very provincial. You know and and I need a barbecue transcends right. It's like one of those things that everybody loves you know. We'll have a guy in shorts next to a woman in address next to a managed to you know and everybody's they're having a good time but this this is where you delineate. It's gotTa be good. I mean I can show you fifteen or twenty barbecue places that are currently opened in Cleveland and seventeen suck ass. Somehow they remain open but there are some of the worst barbecue that I've ever had three of them are really good really and happy to take you there and you know say my name. Talk to the owners and bubble Bob because I've realized but to meet three out of twenty or twenty five is so barbecue is one of those things where it's gotTa be good to continue to attract people. Obviously the you have the snobs that probably come in to think they really know everything and this and that but if it's really good people are going to keep coming back. So why did you WANNA get into the barbecue business especially you were running Obviously very successfully at the tremont six or seven before that run ended. Did you have were you running in concert then with six four seven and a smoke shop at the same toward the tornado was like a year. Overlapping but I was just getting ready to sell it a head transplant. Six four seven for twenty years and a good life and there's my first love but then while I had six four seven Chris Heart and I started competing and doing very well and barbecuing. Ultimately our team won the world championships and first place Kansas City with brisket at five hundred ten teams. So I wanted to do something new and I'm extremely passionate about barbecue. So opening up a barbecue restaurants seemed the right move for me. There's a lot of challenges But I felt that technolog- in in creating and serving great barbecue so there's a lot of challenges and to some technology. Stop that I really felt comfortable with to be able to keep our barbecue at the level of barbecue. I want to serve funny thing you say about like well. Someone comes into knows a lot about barbecue. We'll get a guy who will be I'm from Texas and I know Great Barbecue and I'm like I'm sure you do and he's like in your and your ribs or no good and I'm like okay. What do you want me to do and he wants to? You know salt pepper and con okay. But if I do that then that guy from Memphis is gonNA come in tomorrow and go your rib sock. I know good barbecue. I'm from breakfast and I'm sure you do what you want me to do. I want you to put some sugar to lend seasonings and spices and Coal Rostom. Okay but see how that goes for us. You know we're not trying to be we're just highlighting the best barbecue that I've had around the country and doing the best job we can. I was just going to say. Can you quantify what the smoke shops barbecue is? Thailand's it's just highlights the highlights from my travels around the country. Doing tough people like look people didn't like it. We wouldn't sell it. I'm in the business of selling and that's the reality right Passionate about it. I love it. I love the hospitality. I love when want tours of our pets? It's my favorite. I absolutely adore that. The hardest part for me to wrap my head around a barbecue restaurant. Is You know when I don't know when you're meets get ready to to finish and go in. I I assume you have like an alto. Shame or some High Humidity Holding Facility. Ask Eve APP. Yeah to me. Texas has it right you show up at lunch and you open up the window and everybody runs through and you serve shop and do whatever you do until you run out and you close sign and say come back to. Those places aren't using Steve APPs. Right that's US you're telling me. Oh no no. No I'm just saying from a from a business running standpoint. I think you open it all up. You sell everything and then. How are they held at food? Oh I would imagine they have evaporate you know something like. I'm not saying that the WBAP is that what I'm saying is business model wise to me. That makes the most sense. Because I'll tell you why because you open up lunch and you have a lunch rush but then lunch tapers off and it's not dinner time yet and there's this weird like time which is where this technology and Alto. Sham is probably helping you with the hold. But you know there's there has to be something that a successful barbecue restaurant is doing to make sure that the quality of the food is good at lunch or as it comes off the pits as it is. It's eight o'clock at night. I mean that's a big swing so barbecue is the food necessity I would put forth that. It's America's first cuisine and it was made because there was no fridge ration- and there was crappy meats and people were poor and they had to make food right so it interesting so when you talk about necessity that's what we're doing here in New England. Were you doing necessity? So the difference. One of the big differences is when you're in a place that maybe is less populated. Perhaps the rents are eight dollars square. Foot twelve dollars a square foot in Boston. They're fifty five dollars so paying rent twenty four hours a day only be open six hours. A day doesn't make sense in business model and you know I'm trying to serve the best barbecue. I possibly can to as many people as I can't turn them onto what great barbecue is because let's face it. New England has been known for Great Barbecue. I get it but so there's that part so we can't look these guys are unforgiving you're not open. They're not coming back. Yeah so taxes somehow is the only place it gets away with it. 'cause it's all timing. That's cool I get it. But like pecan lodged that know. You might be talking about like Aaron Franklin Great. You Know Erica. Do that but so what we do. Is We have two fires on our brisket two fires on our pork three fires on our ribs. Four fires on our chicken so ribs brisket gets fired at eight. It'll come out at somewhere between six seven and eight in the morning we will fire again so they'll come out again at seven or eight that night so we're trying to constantly just stay ahead ribs or three four times a day depending on old first fires at six than it can be at twelve so we're trying to constantly just guessed the level of volume. We're going to have bruce. It's coming off at eight o'clock at night. Yeah we're serving people till like eleven o'clock at night. There's a big city over here buddy so we've got people all the time. I'M GOING OFF OF CLEVELAND. Everything is Cleveland to me. That's a pretty big city. I don't know if you've ever been here pal but it's a pretty big city. You know we got a couple of sports teams and that's about it. Ohio's got more more cities. I can name than any than any other state Cleveland Columbus Cincinnati Anymore Daytona. Yes they tone of Ohio. Yes maybe date. You're a couple more. We got plenty plenty so in Boston. Massachusetts Cities Massachusetts that masters. Okay were chest Worcester. Worcester Boston what no. Oh Manchester by the sea. That's all I get. It's harder to city. I said Cambridge Cambridge so all right so were cooking great barbecue now. It's all about great barbecue because you have some you know culinary chops behind you. I think Some barbecue guys don't have culinary chops behind him. They just do what they wanNA. Because they know they're going to sell it but you'd like to add additional stuff. So how much when you're planning the menu out for this and this is the other issue. I have with a lot of barbecue restaurants. They have a Lotta Shit up on the menu and I don't know how much all of that stuff sell. So why not pair it down to what is going to be selling the best to give yourself from a business standpoint? The the best way to make money. So how do you go about planning your men? You ever heard the eighty twenty rule Yes I deal with it. Every day. In sales twenty percent of my customers do eighty percent of this so we saw a we sell twenty percent of our menu. Eighty percent of the time So we try to really focus on that and figure out what's best about that and sell more items like that But we also like to have fun and I have awesome pitmasters chefs. That worked for me. So you know. We're trying new things and goofing around and stuff so and then seasonality which is fun to deal with so when asparagus comes around or coroner tomatoes so we're constantly trying to move stuff in and out but for us again similar to the book. The core is barbecue so you know so we want people to come here like a steak house. You Go stakeouts. You can get the cream spinach you can get the roads to mushrooms. You can get the mashed potatoes. You know that's their so. Stay with us you know. We got beans. You know. We got MAC and cheese. We Got College. We got slaw but then the other stuff is fun for us and fun forest out. I guess because we get people to come. You know two three times a week. They want new stuff. What's the most off the board MENU ITEM? That you have off the board. I like you you walk in and you're like oh I wouldn't expect to find that item on this menu here Zucchini Salad. That's probably the the RAW Zucchini Salad is. Probably one of the most ones won't be what else do you do? Zoodles with those two out. Those cute fun. Nothing else off the board. I Dunno it always changes right now. We're kind of in the middle of the are sick with the onion jam. Those are crazy. One of my favorite ones that are in. The fall is the mashed potatoes. But we make it with onions. That are come feed in brisket. Fat freaking amazing so we smoked brisket. Take the fat you know. Take all the fat than make make kind of an oil out of it and then put the potato onions and Cookham overnight in the smoker imperium. Sold them into the potatoes phenomenal. Wow we do you keep like tallow on hand. Do you make beef tallow. Yes but not a crazy amount. I mean we we go through two thousand pounds of brisket this year. So what are you? What are you running for? Brisk who do you use? That's probably better not said what come on man stronghold on some producer longtime you hear Aaron Franklin buys all the creeks down briskets or whatever the hell he's affiliated they they all of his briskets to him but you have a similar relationship with somebody. I don't think I buy all of somebody's because I'm sure he buys more that he probably buys a half million pounds a year. Or just you know we we. We like who us and we'd prefer that we prefer that other people didn't try to get it all right. So what do you? What grade are you using? Either high prime depends on what we're we're looking to do. Do you get a better price like. Oh let me ask you this. How do you price it out? Does the price then fluctuate if you get a high choice versus the prime? Will you fluctuate your prices? We don't we won't fuck sweet. No we. Don't we will fluctuate if it drastically goes. Higher drastically goes low but when we look at a year. It's kind of going like this so we can figure it out that it's kind of tries to average prime give you a better yield like why would you just go? One way or fully up into depends depends on. It's not always during the year. Is the barbecue business secret? Is there something missing? There's some stuff all right fair enough. What about like Pork and chicken and stuff is just know. Whoever you're getting it from her I mean. Let me let me ask a better question. Is the purveyor really important? Do you go through and vet and say I'm looking for X. SPEC and then you can go to get the best product yes. We don't buy commodity so this is one of our challenges people. I can so expensive. I'm like because I don't buy commodity like if you want to go. People are like the most bizarre thing and we're going to ramp for second people like they want us to like like we want barbecue and we wanted cheap. I'm like you WANNA put cheap food in your body. That's what you WANNA do. I'm like I have the number for this other barbecue place in here. It is because we're not it's not I just doesn't make sense. It's such a disconnect. America has with food food cost. Money meet costs money. That's the reality right and we will we. Have you know? We sell it as cheap as we. Prairie fresh is who we buy our our ribs and our port butts and we love them. I couldn't be happier. Let Seaboard Perry. Fresh awesome chickens. We try to you know. We're no hormones. No antibiotics no goofiness just solid. Good Meat Yeah is a margin on a barbecue restaurant tighter than it would have been at a at a trauma six four seven. That's about the same rhetoric businesses. It is what it is though are remodels a little better but food costs is a little bit. Higher need is a little more accepting. Yeah it's it's not cheap. You know I mean it's just not you know and I think people have this romantic thought. I was these yield tiny barbecue places. That how cheap it is. And that's nice go back to North Carolina and then go back twenty years because I have yet to even the least expensive barbecue places. I still hear people complaining about the price now. So you know it's like CHAPULTEPEC has like made people believe that food should be this big gnarly thing of cheapness and its gross. Antea and then they wanna why they got sick. Oh my God. So you've transitioned nicely into a rant that I didn't think I was GONNA have. I don't under- do you. Remember a place called. Kyrie's was like a big Mexican chain restaurant all over the country and they had a case where it was like. The lettuce was contaminated coli. Whatever the hell it was one case whole fricken chain boom. Chichi was my wife's favorite Mexican restaurant and all of a sudden it was wiped out. I have no Goddamn idea how chipotle lay consider. There's a AAA in the next town. Over from my place that has been shut down over the last four years fifteen different times because they're not holding it right. People are getting sick and oh by the way while the shut down for a week the line is forming for when that place opens again. I have never seen a place have so many health food violations so many people get sick across the country and it remains the most popular place to go. Why is that? I don't get it? People believe it won't happen to them. What's interesting is when you think about cheap food. Look these places. GotTa make money. So they're cutting somewhere somewhere in the supply line. There's some cuts happening and either on training on management on delivery on farming. Somewhere the cutting in the to do that. And and what do you think if you if you if you cut the supply chain? Something's going to happen and then people get sick. I survive anybody survives. That stuff we are. We live in fear so back to your question about meets we have rules with our meats and our purveyors. No it they cannot give us anything but exactly what we asked for. That's a good idea. That's the way we do business. That's why you should go to the smoke shop in eat bark grade barbecue over there almost five different locations also twice. You want to go out and buy this great book which is called the smoke shops backyard barbecue. All reputable and perhaps some unreputable book purveyors. We'll have it right now. You can go to Amazon DOT COM and check it out go to andy husbands dot com and check him out to get the history see what he's up to do you have A social media handles and stuff that you're active honored me up on Instagram at Andy. Husbands twitter facebook. I think on full on friends on facebook. Sorry guys you can follow me. You D. do you have a fan page because you get unlimited? Likes Fan page? Maybe one day. I don't know. Yeah any thoughts on the Corona I. Gotcha the beer. Yeah you'd like corona with a line sir. You drink it with a lime I think. That's a wack. I just drink it. I don't really drink if you're talking about the corona virus if that's what you really ask you about I just hope everybody's safe and taking care of themselves. Washing their hands will get through. This aren't Andy HUSBANDS DOT COM. Check him out on social media. Get the book the smoke shops backyard barbecue and he'd has been great catching up with you. I appreciate you taking me to task on things because people rarely do that. And let's do it against her in the later. Definitely come by visit. All right we will. There is andy husbands by the way. There's a zero percent chance that I'll be going to Boston. We know that right. You Bet I'll be there. I WANNA GO. I do. I would love to go. I would really like to go. I really want to say that I'M GONNA go. I WANNA mean when I say that I'm going to go. But in the meantime we know. I'M NOT GONNA go dammit. It's a great book by the way him. And his what is he the day to day? Culinary Operations Guy. Over at the smoke shop a will Salazar William Salazar so I have a copy of this book for you to win as well so I won in with an email on the subject line. That says Andy Husbands Hell's kitchen go ahead and shoot in while we line up to head out. Do not like it man. Andy was hot tonight. He was taking me to task on C. Vat Alto Sham. I think he thought I was questioning the USA. I was not a like. Take me the task on cities in Boston or Massachusetts. I don't care about any other state but my state but know we're all the states are on the map and most of the capital city. So if you want a copy of the book hit me up Greg at the BBQ central show dot com the subject. Line Andy Husbands. Hell's kitchen and do it now. We'll see if we get a winner here while we get ready to wrap it up. Stick around be right back packers. Four legs is in shifting butts. You've never heard this before you might think you found the best triple X. show ever let's get back to the most homo erotic host still there today. Gray pre welcome back. And I'm telling you you want to sign up for the smoke sheet that's right say weekly newsletter happening every week covering top news in the barbecue world events recipes and more star by Ryan. Cooper and Sean Ludwig you can sign up for the newsletter at bbq newsletter DOT COM. And it's GonNa be great a great all in one resource Shawn Ludwig by the way Self quarantining dykes John. Hope you're alright. Bad luck all around for the dudes at the smoke. Sheet Ryan Cooper Battering battling cancer and Sean Ludwig self quarantining from Corona virus. So I think he was in Italy man. Oh man good luck to both you guys for crying out loud but he don't you WanNa come back on the show fine. Just ask back on the show by the way we do have a winner. Your winner is Jason That's right Jason. Wall was winning. While we're so excited Jason. Played The game. He's one himself a copy of the smoke shops backyard barbecue book again for sale and all reputable companies and Amazon Dot Com. I'm not saying Amazon isn't reputable. I'm just also mentioning because everybody can get everything except you can't get masks or pure L. at Amazon or any freaking store no matter what right now. So Jason Wallace. You win now. I will contact you through your winning email. We'll get your shipping address. You also have to tell me if you would like me to autograph. Andy's book to send to you. That's the thing that we do on the show. I get an extra copy of a book and I give you the opportunity of me. Autographing someone else's book. It's not my book. I stated clearly. There's no way in hell ever write a book let alone read a book. But I will be more than happy to autograph a book by Autograph on Somebody Else's book to send to you so you have a for everybody here at the book game. This is your host Greg Yuppie saying this is where we clap lights mad ready sir. How did they clap like us? That's crazy unbelievable. All right. Let's go ahead and get the hell out of here. Why don't we before something crazy happens all the way back in the first hour we talked with meathead amazing ribs dot com is his website. You can go get the brisket corned beef and paste Rami Sandwich recipes. If you want for Saint Patrick's day coming up a week. We also and the second hour with Andy husbands all the way through that second. Our HUSBANDS DOT COM is his website smoke shop. Bbq Dot com is the barbecue. Restaurants website will have five locations across the Greater Boston area. So congratulations to him as backyard. Barbecue show is adeptly pointing out. We're all hoping that smoky is okay. I don't have any word so we'll see. Don't forget barbecue. Central Show American idol will debut in two weeks. Time as we try out the thin Lizzy Song Jailbreak Myself John Solberg Doug Shading and rice or we'll be singing for the fame and adulation of others big show planned for you next week. We Got Robin Lindores. We got Steven Reich Lynn. We got Bob Trott neck and a host others September eleventh two thousand and one. I will never forget until next Tuesday at nine PM Eastern Asia program host front proud. Us American Greg. Good night now Jeff Richards. You're listening to Barbara through central.

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Jonathan Slain  Plan for a Recession So That You Can Survive and Thrive From It

My Worst Investment Ever Podcast

26:30 min | 4 months ago

Jonathan Slain Plan for a Recession So That You Can Survive and Thrive From It

"Every two weeks I would call her for payroll which was about twenty thousand so imagine. Twelve phone calls all groveling to your mother-in-law to borrow money. And that's that was my reality. Hello Fellow risk-takers. And welcome to my worst investment ever stories of loss to keep you winning in our community. We know that win in investing. You must take risk but to win big. You've got to reduce it. Today's episode is sponsored by the valuation masterclass Online. Complete proven step-by-step online course to guide you from novice evaluation expert. Podcast listeners can claim your amazing thirty five percent discount by going to my worst investment ever dot com slash deals. My name is Andrew Stotz from as stocks investment research. And I'm here with featured guest. Jonathan Slain Jonathan. Are you ready to rock dude? I am always ready to rock. Let's do it in. Something tells me from the Rock and Roll Hall of fame and the city of rock and Roll Arrays Cleveland Ohio Rock and Cleveland rocks. Well let me introduce you. Let me introduce you to the audience. Jonathan's book rock the recession. How successful leaders prepare for thrived during increased well after downturns came out in September twenty nineteen and is a number one Amazon best-seller and we really all should read it now? Jonathan coaches high growth leadership teams across the United States and helps them implement the manorial operating system also known as traction you focus on working with entrepreneurial niche specialty firms and large corporations spending over one hundred days per year working with teams just like yours. Jonathan was Valedictorian of his graduating class. And had the highest GPA. Ever in the history of Shaker Heights high school where he was also voted next Bill Gates and least likely lose his virginity and we have something in common i. We grew up in very close proximity. I grew up in Hudson Ohio. And you grew up in the Cleveland area and we also have something in common. I was voted something when I was in high school. It was least likely to succeed so now Jonathan take a minute and Phillies tidbits about your life. Why I think we both proven them wrong. Andrew's saying is. I have two kids so definitely figure that piece out hand just excited to be here excited me on the show. Love the premise of what you're doing and the opportunity to share with the audience. Interesting fantastic. Well let's get right into it now. It's time to share your worst investment. Ever since no one ever goes into their worst investment thinking it will be tell us a bit about the circumstances leading up to it and then tell us your story so andrew I I have to. I disclose I'm a recovering investment banker. So that's where I wanNA start. Is that you know I worked. Eighty to one hundred hours a week for two years so in people years. It's really four years of experience but ultimately got a call from my brother-in-law one day asking me if I wanted to help him out. He wanted to go look at some. Jim Franchises that he was interested in investing in. I went to Denver with him and on the flight home from Denver to Cleveland. I said Hey. Why don't I leave the bank in all? Start opening up these gyms with you and that that was the worst investment that I ever made so what happened was that we got home and we actually opened up our first Jim ever and your hometown. Hudson Ohio world such a small world. First one ever opened up Hudson Ohio. It's actually still there. I forgot to tell you one. We're doing the pre interview. But it's still there. It's been there for over a decade over in the first in main shopping center. So I don't WanNa ruin the story for the audience because that unit survives but we grew the thing very fast Andrew. What happened was in less than five years. We had five units operating called fitness together. All one on one personal training studios franchises and so we had five locations across. Cleveland had twenty five employees. I was twenty five years old and had no idea what I was doing. And we had. We broke of franchise records all over. We had the most personal training sessions. In a year. We have the most locations we had the most revenue of any group and then the great recession hit and so I ended up. I didn't have a plan my plan was. I borrowed a few bucks for my mother-in-law in by few bucks. Andrew I mean a quarter of a million dollars. Zero zero already laughing. The worst crying even told the worst part dude is that it was. It wasn't one phone call. It was every two weeks I would caller for payroll which was about twenty thousand so imagine. Twelve phone calls all groveling to your mother-in-law to borrow money and that's that was my reality so borrowed it and that's what kept US afloat through the great recession. And you know at this point. I've paid her back so the good news is Thanksgiving is an awkward anymore. And My brother-in-law still has the gyms he bought my shares. In two thousand seventeen. I really got into Doing Business Coaching Consulting. And you know at some point in two thousand seventeen said. Hey you're never really here anymore. You know I don't I I buy your half of the gyms and I'll do this and so that was my worst investment ever. Okay so tell us. What are the lessons that you learn from this experience so Andrew? I knew you were going to ask me this. I really thought about it and I don't know if you the audience have a pen. I'M GONNA give you my top lesson. The first thing that everyone needs to do the first thing run a credit. Check on your mother-in-law so sorry myself yet. The lessons that I learned are that you've got to have a plan so my issue was. I didn't have a plan for what we would do. If we ever hit a downturn and so a lot of the book is because people shouldn't have to borrow money from mother-in-law and so by having a plan what I mean is that like so right now or shooting this video right on the heels of the corona virus sweeping through Asia. We're just talking about how China Korea are passed in the United States still really faced the brunt of it but if you WANNA rock a recession you've gotTa have a plan you've gotta figure it out in the cool rational light of day. It's very tough to figure out what you WANNA do in them motionless heat of the night. I mean we're all human and humans make notoriously bad decisions when they're stressed out when their emotional and that's the biggest thing I learned. It was very tough for me to figure out what to do when I was in my office at the gym and people were coming to my door worried that they were gonNA lose their jobs. When all of our creditors were calling us WanNa know when we were going to pay our bills or if we could pay our bills very tough to make good decisions in execute then so I lost a lot of time I probably barred twice as much as I would have had to if I had just had a better plan than being curled up in the fetal position in the morning on my office so I know that's probably not GonNa let me. It's so that the concept of a plan you know one of the things. Is there any other things that you'd add that you learn from it? Yeah it's the idea so it's having a plan and one plan for recession. Planning is having a downside plan so I call it an emergency brake. So if you know you're in a recession in your in discretionary business like personal training in you know people are GonNa cut back. Then you know you need to have a plan for what you're GONNA DO TO REDUCE. Expenses cut overhead do layoffs in survive. That's one part of it Andrew. But the other part the reason we actually wrote the book was not to regurgitate that. Pretty common wisdom for recessions. It was actually to say look. These recessions could really be opportunities. You know if you're an entrepreneur. And once every seven ten years a major disruption that's an opportunity to pounce you know maybe it's an opportunity for me. I wish I had thought to pivot to small group training or to lower my prices right away or to do in home training virtual training that we could have we could have done all those things during the great recession for cheaper than what we were doing didn't have a plan. We didn't pivot. We just tried to stick to business as usual and we got crushed by it so at this point. I think those are the two biggies one is related. Just have a downside plan and the second and maybe even more importantly as you know having planned to be able to pounce okay got it and let me summarize some of the things I take away from your story. I mean the first one is that well in some ways you were lucky. You could argue that you failed number. One mistake that most people make is that they failed to do their research when you made a decision on that plane after a very short amount of time researching it you know. There's no way you could have known enough information at that time now. The good news is that you know it managed to work itself out but the other thing that I take away. Is You know a Lotta people went investing in the stock market. For instance. You know people like to be value. Investors be like Warren Buffett. And that is that we you know. We basically less for the long run. If something goes down a bit we buy more you know. We don't really think about what do when the share prices really fall and this is where I always have used an advocate. Most beginners particularly to use stop losses when they are investing in the stock market and for professional investor may say I don't need I because I really understand the company. Well for most people they just don't and so a stop. Loss is a little bit. Like this downside. Plan and what I say is that you know you predetermined future action. And then it's a little bit like when airplanes flying in the left engine goes out you go straight to the manual. You go straight to the book. There are steps that you've already got there to take and you begin to methodically. Take those steps now. Yeah Andrew I love that I. I completely agree. I think it's like if you have the recession plan. And you've got it you put it under glass and then when you're seeing on CNN when you're seeing on Fox when you're seeing on your local stations that were in a recession you can calmly walk over to the glass break. It take out your plan and start to execute so I completely agree with you now. The the issue about this plan. That's so horn in. My opinion is not the idea of writing it. It's the idea of even thinking about it because when times are good nobody who's going to sit down and write down that plan ten years of economic boom the stock market boom in in the US as an exam. How you know. How is it that somebody can really you know when all you're doing is trying to capture and ride the wave? You're not thinking about that. Wave crashing. What is your advice for people to to be able to do that because it is you know you even may see that. The people would read your book. But they didn't do it. What's your best advice? Encourage people to do that throughout the psycho. Not just obviously when things go bad. You've got to quickly put together your plan but to do it when the cycles good yeah. Andrew for me. It's a way of life so I don't WanNA reveal all my neuroses to the the audience but since you know the topic of your podcast and we're going deep here. I really look at it. Is Life Planning so for me? It's beyond just having recession plan for my business. There's a a life plan that I have for what I WANNA get out of this year. What I want to get out of the next decade what I ultimately want to get out of life before it's all over and so I think part of it is to embrace it and to have a plan for everything I think. At least in the US it feels like we spend more time planning for the holidays. Then it does that we spend planning our lives and so I'm not content to just let the winds of take me where they will really WanNa have a plan for where I WANNA go every step of the way so. That's the level at which I believe in this stuff and then I would the other point. Real quick is just that. I don't think we're speaking everyone. I'm really speaking to the entrepreneurs that understand that there's always going to be a disruption look. It's like the seasons of the year. Right there's spring summer fall winter and all we know is that winter is always coming and so same thing with recessions whether it's caused by virus whether it's caused by an interruption in the stock market or it could be an oil shock or could be the housing bubble that caused the great recession or could be the DOT com bubble. Any one of these can put recession in fact even agnostic. What's going on in the economy? Andrew if you lose your biggest client. You're in a recession. More of your best employees. Leave go across the street and started competing business. You're in a recession. There's plenty we all know that. We're going to have recessions in our life so to not have a plan to me would be like going up on that airplane that you mentioned earlier not having a plan for what if the left engine goes out got it. That's great you know. I want to tell you a story. Jonathan about something that happened in my own business and that was did we had an opportunity to kind of. Let's just say by a competitor in another country in this case Vietnam and it was actually going to be a partnership and there was a lot of good to this thing and so what we did is. This is for our coffee business. Coffee Works and what we did. Is that Dale? My best friend who runs the business also from Hudson Ohio by the way while daily so he was pretty excited about the idea and so basically what we decided was that he was going to research this deeply as he could and that he wants he got all the information he could possibly get in by going there meeting with people going through all the scenarios putting together is is sales forecast then he would present that to me and I would not criticize anything about that now. This sounds a little bit strange because I mean that's the whole point of considering a businessman. No I would celebrate all the positive things that he saw in that. Look at how those could potentially work map out if they work. What would it mean from a revenue from a cost perspective? Then once we did that and he did a great job of presenting all the numbers went to everything and then we decided that we wouldn't give any feedback or discuss much about it at that time except you know ask some questions about that and then then we decided we'd meet again next week and so we met again one week later and we decided at this meeting would be everything that could go wrong with this investment and you separate your research into the upside and the downside. It's remarkable how it helps because it was no longer a threat to his idea or something like that it was like we've agreed we're going to share this thing apart and when we tore it apart we went from this jubilation and excitement about this idea until by the time we tore it apart. We realized it just wasn't that attractive and we decided not to do it so I highly recommend you know people to think about return and risk in two buckets and that can sometimes help you to create the plan that Jonathan's stalk him out about having dry your life that you have both an upside in downside plan. What do you think about that Jonathan? Yeah I mean I love that and I was furiously trying to remember the name of a book. I just finished. It's the story of blackstone and its founder Steve Schwartzman and he talks in the book specifically about the power of red teaming an investment and. I think that's really what you're referring to. Is that a lot of times you know. Humans we even optimism bias. It's one of our cognitive biases. So we always want to look at all the positives. The upside and so they attribute their success at blackstone. One of their core principles is to really have a meeting before they make every investment and the entire meeting just has to be picking the deal apart trying to come up with reasons not to do it because it creates a culture of if all you can bring up at the meeting our problems then everybody feels comfortable doing that whereas in a lot of corporate cultures and really in a lot of discussions. Nobody wants to be that skunk at the Garden Party. The one that is the first one maybe bring up something. That doesn't work because bosses excited about the idea you know so. I love that idea that to really get around that cognitive bias that humanity if we want to save ourselves from our own humanity. We need to make sure that we give ourselves permission and just come up with a set way to do that. So yeah I'm completely with you and perhaps if I had done that with my deal I may have avoided having to borrow are all from my mother in law and the last thing for me is I remember going. I went to school at Kent State. I didn't have any money and I managed to get a woman. Catherine O'Brien from the Ohio state disabilities that gave me because you're a recovering investment banking. But I'm recovering much worse. There's a twelve step program out of Akron Ohio. In fact that is what I belong to in I was I was broken at the age of eighteen nineteen and it was the twelve steps. That really got me back in. This woman gave me a grant from the state of Ohio for five hundred dollars that got me into Kent State. And that's where I started my education and I remember walking I. I started studies psychology. But then I decided you know. Let's check out some other classes and I walked into this economics class and there was two hundred people in the class. The teacher walked in and I was sitting in the back of the class right and he said good morning everybody. There's two hundred people in this room. Let's just draw a line down? The Middle One hundred of you will be gone by the end of this semester and out of the one hundred that remain. I'm only giving ten ace. Let's get started and I thought damn it. I'M GONNA GET THAT IN THE NEXT TIME. I I was in that class. I move right to the front row and it inspired me. That guy can't even remember his name but he sparked the seeds of of learning in me but what he taught that you know. I remember very well because I studied very hard. Is that when boom times happened when interest rates are low? When when everybody's excited marginal players come in they have access to capital and they get into any business area and when they get into that business area basically. What eventually starts happening is that you get oversupply and then profit margin. Start to fall and then next thing you know you go into some sort of slowdown crash you know. Whatever it is and those marginal players only a small number of them will actually survive that. And that's part of the actual nature of it and that the stronger ones are able to emerge from that and what he basically taught me. Was that human behavior and economics have explained this for a long time. And you know the only one the one caveat for the US in what's happened over the years is that the Fed never let the interest rates go up and the result is it. Fueled a flame of you know of entrepreneurs coming into businesses. That they probably shouldn't have been in and that is a huge part of what fueled the bubble because I think it's from my perspective as a financial guy and what I've told my clients over time. Is that the problem is definitely not corona virus. The problem is that we were in a massive bubble a massive amount of debt and we were at the peak of profitability and that sought market rise was driven by tax cuts in extremely low interest rates. It is completely obvious that that were all those are all the factors driving and just as much as I would say. It's probably obvious to most people that if you completely stop your economy you're going to cause hundreds of millions of people to suffer immensely. It's completely obvious to me but I think at this point. It won't be obvious until after it's done. So that's some thoughts on that and any other things that you'd wrap up for this part of the discussion. Yeah well I think the quote the Warren Buffett one when the tide goes out you can see who's been swimming naked and I agree with you that there were a lot of people swimming naked. We published the book in September of last year because we were looking at the yield curve and we were looking at the yield curve inversion and I don't want to bore the audience. I'm kind of an economic gig but that one economic indicator has predicted all the recessions that we've had at least in the US and the end of World War Two so when we saw including this one now there was some doubt. Yep Yep eight in so again. None of us knew that this black swan event would put us into a recession. If it wasn't this it's like I said earlier. Spring leads to summer summer leads to fall. Fall always leads to winner and we had sown the seeds of this recession. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back in this case was corona virus cove in nineteen. It could have been a lot of other things but one were playing at back in the future. Coming out of a recession it is going to be harder to get capital. Banks are not going to want alone and so that will mean that entrepreneurs will have to either have stronger better ideas or be better faster or cheaper than their competitors and that's the the basics of how the economy will get jump start again. I'm just hoping that you know the audience listening today will figure out how they can rock the recession and then ultimately rocked the recovery. Because we're all going to have massive opportunity especially if you're smart enough to listen to your awesome show yet so I think rather than ask you about what one action that you would take. What I'm going to ask you about is what would be one takeaway that the listeners would get if they bought your book and read it. You know what's one one thing that they would gain from that and I'm sure there's much more but then I think people can decide. Hey I wanna I wanna read this well so we. We didn't write the book just based on my experience. It was really going through and doing the academic research reading all of the scientific studies on pass recessions to try to draw out of them the Golden Nuggets to ask people that actually made money in recessions. How they did it. And what was different in the pull that together. So there's some of that anecdotal wisdom Andrew but the top thing is that we've got a twenty question recession readiness assessment in the book. And so if you get the book if you take the assessment you'll be able to benchmark how well prepared you are for the recession and I think. Best the top value add. Is that instead of being subjective? You'll get a score from zero to one. Hundred Zero is not at all prepared. Hundred is looking forward to the recession. Because of how prepared you are you'll get your score and from there then you can start to decide what you WanNa do with that information. Maybe it'll be a life plan. Maybe it'll be a recession plan for your business. Maybe it'll be a mixture of both but at least you'll have a baseline for how prepared you are versus. Everybody and I can tell you that as of today they average score that we're seeing is thirty. Eight people are not very well prepared. So if you get the ball take the assessment. Or if you don't WanNa get the buck you can just go to recession dot com that yes that is my website. And you can get the assessment there. It's free but yes. So percentage dot com to take the assessment. Or if you WANNA gone Amazon if you can even get stuff there right now you can get rock the recession there to got it all right last question. What's your number one goal for the next twelve months? I am trying to be at home in Cleveland more. I had traveled a lot over. Twenty nineteen so. I spent you know like like you said in the introduction did over one hundred as a year of strategic planning with teams over fifty of those this past year or outside of Cleveland and so this year twenty. Twenty I'm focused on being at home more having more virtual clients so actually for me. A lot of this has been using this corona crisis to really get better at my virtual meeting capabilities so to figure out how. I can do virtual meetings how I can make this work so I don't know the the universe must've heard me in part because this is helping to make me have to hustle faster to get here to where I wanted to go all right listeners. There you haven't another story of loss to keep you winning to find more stories like this previous episodes and resources to help you. Reduce Your risk visit my worst investment ever dot com as we end. Jonathan I want to thank you again for coming on the show. I know it's painful. Talking about are losers but our listeners are learning to win as a result. And I want to congratulate you for being one of the brave ones who has turn your worst investment. Ever into your best teaching moment. Do you have any parting? Words for the audience. Just want them rock the recession want them to be able to be in position. Iraq the recovery so that they never have to borrow money from their mother-in-law like I did. Thanks so much for having me on rock on rock and roll. Well that's a wrap another great story to help us create grow and most importantly protect our well fellow. Risk-takers I'll see you on the upside.

Andrew Stotz United States Jonathan Slain Jonathan Cleveland Hudson Ohio Ohio Amazon Warren Buffett Shaker Heights high school Bill Gates Phillies Asia investment banker Jim Franchises CNN
Shaker Heights - Episode 3: The Crush

True Crime Garage

55:12 min | 6 months ago

Shaker Heights - Episode 3: The Crush

"Uh-huh welcome to Shaker Heights episode. Three the crush sixteen year old Lisa Pruitt was stabbed twenty one times by an unknown assailant. September fourteenth nineteen ninety and Shaker Heights Heights. Ohio a well to do suburb on Cleveland's east side. Her body was found about one hundred feet from her boyfriend's back door where he lived with his parents and sister. This boyfriend Dan Dreifort had been released from a mental institution. Earlier that day after the murder dance friends gathered to discuss the murder in likely suspects. We'll never know exactly what was discussed at these. Private meetings of grief stricken children but we know that after those meetings dance dance friends. went to Shaker Heights. Police detectives and said they believed Kevin Young had killed Lisa Pruitt out of jealousy over her relationship unshipped with Dan. The police searched Kevin's house and found no murder weapon or bloody clothes. Nothing at all to link him to the crime scene and he had an alibi as the investigation continues an interview with eighteen year old Stanley Kramer. Dreamer implicates Dan Dry. I father and a possible conspiracy of silence by now Shaker Heights. Police Detectives have interviewed reviewed. The men and women who had the means motive and opportunity to commit the crime and they've heard from a handful of teenagers and Shaker Heights high school who regard Kevin Young with hatred and suspicion. The case takes a turn that Monday just three days after after. Lisa's murder that's when the police detectives decide it was Kevin Young who committed the crime. What follows is a statement eight mint by a lead detective in the case which explains how F. B. I.? Pro Filers helped convince them it was probably Kevin who committed. I did the crime on Monday. September Seventeenth Seventeenth nineteen ninety. I was contacted by special agent. Dick ran of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Relative to the lease approved. Homicide agent ran. Advise me that he was the the case agent for the Aiming Bhave case and offered to assist us in any way he could. He further informed me that due to the circumstances surrounding the PRUITT case that he would need to inquire choir as to any similarities between the Mahalla Vic improved homicides. I invited agent Ren to come to our station in review our reports and other information that we had accrued each advised that he would visit our station at approximately one PM that afternoon. I was unable to meet with H. Wren when he arrived at the station to the fact that I was at the Cuyahoga uh-huh county prosecutor's office with detective. Sergeant Timothy read preparing a search warrant for the resident of Kenneth Texts Workman agent ran in agent. John done met with other members of the Investigative Bureau in Review reports and evidence from the Homicide upon returning from the county prosecutor's. Office Detective Sergeant Timothy Read Detective Robert Bert Shipping and detective. David executed the search warrant at Twenty six twenty six north Moreland apartment number two. The residents of Kenneth Workman see supplementary suppplementary report. By sergeant read there was nothing of evidentiary value located during the search later that afternoon while searching through several plastic trash bags that were removed the residents of Kevin Young during a search of his residence of Sunday morning. September sixteen of Nineteen Ninety investigators located several documents that contained writings and power phrases. That indicated that Kevin Young had some sort of behavioral problem. The writings referred to Kevin's disdain. For Jews Arabs and blacks you further remarked about his own problems with developing relationships with females other writings revealed as inner feelings when he observed couples male female acting out their affection for one another further further examination of the documents indicated interest in Satanism and neo. Nazism specifically skinheads. There were several documents that refer to suicide after after all the documents were examined contacted agent Ren and advised him as to what we had found. I asked him if he knew anyone. Locally who could review the writings in office in opinion on what they meant Egypt ran referred me to supervisory special agent James Right at the FBI Academy is Behavioral Science Section in Quantico. Virginia I attempted to make contact with agent right but was unable to do so due to the late hour on Wednesday September Eighteenth nineteen ninety. I made contact with ancient right. He asked me to fax him all all available documents relative to Kevin Young. You further related that he would review the documents that same evening. I gathered all the documents thirty seven pages worth and had them facts the agent right. The transmission was completed at twelve thirty four. PM on Thursday. September nineteenth nineteen ninety ten thirty A. M. Egypt right contact me by telephone and advise me that he'd reviewed the writings of Kevin Young and the details of the police report of the murder of Lisa. pruitt he stated that it was his opinion from the information that he it examined that the murder was definitely a quote neighborhood thing unquote and that the person that we were looking for new Lisa. Pruitt Egypt right then gave me a personality profile of what he learned concerning Kevin. Young he related that Kevin's personality profile. Definitely fit that of a person capable of committing the crime in question. He further remarked that we should look at other sexual assaults that have been reported in the past agent right went on to state that Kevin Young has no ego low self esteem. He probably probably realizes that people don't like him. Even offered some suggestions for any further interviews with Kevin Agent Right suggested the Kevin Young interviewed at night the later the better you described Kevin as a night person. He further suggested that the interview should take place in a non threatening environment. Not In an interrogation room. The interviewer must be able to bond with Kevin quote provide a friend unquote. The interviewer should be mature looking articulate intelligent he must not resemble Kevin's father bother or have an authoritative personality Egypt right than proffered the following interview structure. One don't start off the interview by being threatening but to create some anxiety in the subject. Show them something from the scene but it off to the side within his peripheral vision things from the scene might quote tweak him to to give the subject of face saving scenario to Kevin's good and bad quote. He lost control. He's not really responsible. In quote referred referred to his writings quote if I ever lose control of myself withdraw into an alternative world in animal instincts. Takeover this is from essay written by Kevin Young dated January Ninth Nineteen Ninety Three explained that the problem needs to be resolved for be. Be careful not to be judgmental five. Don't be confrontational and six. You can expect a lot of denial for a long long time after speaking with agent right. I advised him that I was not sure that I had an interview with expertise in dealing with the type of personality that he describes I further advised him that depending depending on laboratory results the success or failure of this investigation hinged on the interview with Kevin Young Egypt right offered to assist in any way he could other than personally conducting conducting the interview. I then asked if you would assist in preparing the interviewer. I told him that I would be willing to come to Quantico with the selected interviewer if he could make his staff available to us for whatever period of time that he thought was necessary. Egypt right reiterated that he would help in any way possible on Friday September Twenty First Nineteen Ninety at two PM Egion run agent done members of the investigative bureau chief Ogre. Nick and I met in the conference room. We decided at that meeting. The Kevin Young was our primary suspect suspect and that we should make arrangements as soon as possible to meet with agent right at Quantico agent offered US assistance and advised that he would be willing to accompany us to Quantico for the the interview preparation session after the meeting I contacted agent right in advised him of the results of our meeting. Agent stated that he would be available to meet with us on Tuesday. September twenty-fifth Nineteen Ninety at eleven. Am and that he would be at our disposal for as long as it took to structure our interview. Chief Walter U-b-e-r Nick after consulting with members of the investigative native bureau assigned detective. Sergeant Thomas Gray is the primary interviewer and detective Thomas. Callahan's key as the backup interviewer. He further approved travel expenses for the trip to Quantico for Sergeant Thomas Gray Detective Richard Mullany Special Agent John done in myself on Tuesday. September Twenty Fifth Nineteen Ninety it departed from Cleveland Hopkins Airport at eight thirty five. Am via Continental Airlines flight number two sixty eight B arrived at Washington National Airport at approximately nine forty five. Am We used to vehicle from the airport and arrived at the FBI Academy in Quantico at eleven am is scheduled we then met in the Behavioral Sciences Unit With Supervisory Special Agent James Right and three members of his staff special agent. Dave Gomez special agent. Greg Cooper a special agent gentlemen row the session to begin with US providing a detailed description of the crime scene all events leading up to the murder in all events succeeding the murder. They've Udal photographs illustrations in documents. Concerning the case each named suspect was described with the reason or reasons why they were still suspected or limited as a suspect their initial response was just to point out the deep anger that was demonstrated throughout this crime. They felt the anger was demonstrated both in the type of stab wounds in the force us to break. Lisa's rib the anger also. Oh show in the high risk scenario that surrounded. Lisa's death. They also felt that based on the crime scene that the knife was a weapon of choice. Not a weapon of Opportunity Egypt writing the staff than shared with us a profile of Kevin Young they described Kevin Young as a quote John Hinckley type personality. He described Hinckley's a person who fantasized about women from so far he further explained. The hinckley often wrote letters describing romantic interludes with women that he had never been acquainted with. They felt the papers from Kevin indicated that he had at one time had some type of homosexual experience. Which would explain his quote homophobia they described Kevin very immature and childish emotionally way behind behind his peers? They estimated that he the emotional development of an eleven or twelve year old and added that he probably had difficulty dealing with his peers but that he could function socially with both with younger children and adults. The also felt that because he was emotionally behind his peers. Kevin was threatened by Dan's referred through Lisa pruitt. They felt his papers. Also indicated gated. He had no self respect. Your profile Kevin also led them to believe that he had justified his actions to himself before he did it. One of their biggest concerns was that now that he'd she killed. It would be easier for him to kill again. They felt in many traits. Serial killer within focused on developing approach for the interviewer suggested that the interview you be conducted away from any police settings preferably in a motel suite. They also suggested that the interview conducted by one person not recorded in any way it would be easier for Kevin to trust one person into trust that person. If there was no recording of the interview they explained how to get Kevin to record the quote truth on-call after the interview they also reminded us of the importance of having a supply of pop and cigarettes and being prepared to handle meals and sleeping arrangements as the interview went on. They told us up front front that they felt Kevin would wanna tell us what happened and that it would probably take them a long time. They also suggested that the interview be done at night. The later the better due to Kevin's nocturnal tendencies. The approach location in wording would all have to be a soft approach. They stressed the importance of having enough patients to let him sit and talk to build Zego End to discuss his interests. They also focused on the issue. The Kevin must feel that the interviewer cares about him for the interview to be a success. Our approach was to be that the interviewer has the ability to help them to present the truth to the prosecutor and to be an outsider to the system that will help him agent rights justed. We could reinforce us with thoughts along the line. Line of My boss thinks you're killer and quote. We also wanted to express our concern for the urgency of the matter that resulted in early afternoon trip to Columbus. The initial setup of the interview was all soft tones and all aimed at building trust and confidence. They felt that given Kevin's personality that he would have a difficult time talking. Anyone one about what happened. However they suggested that his intellectual approach to everything could be used to our advantage? They thought his personality would let him explain what had happened. As the theoretical quote Third Person We decided to address the interview. I in the third person. They felt that if he was involved. Kevin's personality would encourage him to discuss. What happened happened in third person? It was felt that Kevin had an opportunity to justify and rationalize what was done than it would be easier for him to confess. It would be critical at this point to be non judgmental about anything that Kevin said. The next part of the interview would be indirect questioning. These would address our concerns in non-threatening ways. He's these questions would be in the form of putting him in the shoes of the person who did this to Lisa asking him things. Like what would this person with the knife with bloody clothes or or with bloody hands. The next topic was a polygraph. They discussed the importance of good polygraph questions. For someone like Kevin. The questions would have to key into stress areas of the actual interview. If felt that someone like Kevin might pass a polygraph with standard questions suggested questions were did you get blood on yourself and did did you get in a fight. The last part of the interview if needed would be the confrontational part. During this section we would present Kevin in overwhelming amount of why we thought he was involved oft Kevin would then be asked to help. The interviewer explained the evidence presented. We also discussed the importance of doing the same type interview on the parents. During the time that we were talking cabin Egypt right in his staff then discussed interviewing techniques to help build and reduce stress in the interview. This included questions voice control embodied positioning and we also discussed items to have hand. The first were some non-threatening pictures of the area. Where Lisa was killed? They suggested no more than three or four and we discuss how to use them. I'm in the interview as an aid for Kevin visualize the scene. The second item was a computer printout of our information on Kevin in a binder with his name on it and was tabs marking key thoughts. This would be useful during the confrontational portion and would add stress during the rest of the interview. We've been reviewed we'd covered. They stressed again that we had to show. Oh Kevin that we really cared got. Our job was to find the truth and that we were neutral and were there to present the truth to the Justice System Breath while detectives have decided to focus on Kevin Young young as their prime suspect. They have actually not yet finished with their witness interviews on Tuesday. They finally sit down with sixteen in your old Dan Messenger who provides important context for the final hours of lease approach. Life Dan Messenger also gives us Our first insight into one of those secret meetings of dance friends which happened the morning after the murder when a handful of teenagers teenagers made the decision. Then it had to be Kevin Young the weird kid in school who committed the crime. I met Lisa in the third grade at ludlow elementary school and since then I've been close friends pretty much ever since I met Daniel Dreifort When he got on the bus and seventh grade but I became close friends with him in German class in ninth grade? I met Chris Jones Tenth Grade Science Class and we we became very close. Kevin Young basically in tenth grade. I'll just say that. I met techs in the tenth grade a little while after we moved here on Thursday September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. I knew that Dan was coming home and I had talked to both Dan at least about it. And I knew if he wasn't coming at home on the thirteenth you become soon. I was sitting after school my German classroom when I heard some say. Dan and I looked up and Dan and Lisa together and Dan was waving at me. I immediately went out of the room and I talked with both of them and I was very excited. Lisa said that she should go and try to get her driver's license and so she and Dan would go and Dan would see her often. Dan said he would come back and see me in a few minutes. The German Room. I went back to the German room and I left momentarily. I went looking for Dan but I didn't find him until I went outside and I saw Dan Dreifort and Chris Jones on their bikes likes. Dan asked me why I wasn't in the German room because he had walked past it and I wasn't there I said because I left right away. We talked about trying to get together and we decided that I'd ride with Chris on his bike and Dan would ride his bike over to my house. We went over to my house and I got my bike. And we rode our bikes over to Chris's apartment. Chris apartments where we went inside. And we talk a lot. I was very excited. We ate some of Chris's snicker bars and Dan. Dan Heads letters in his backpack that he had received from Lisa that he had not yet read and was going to read them later. Chris was getting dressed to go fencing and so at around five thirty. PM He left and went to go funding. Dan and I also left and decided that we would go too Leslie Religious House when we got over there. Leslie gave Dan a big Hug. Actually now that I think about it we saw Cara Smith walking down the street. Dan Her hugged I. Then we walked over to Leslie's house us with our bikes. And that's where Leslie gave Dan a hug at Leslie's house. I began walking around a lot just being nervous for some reason and Dan sat and talked to Leslie Kara. We also went outside and Dan and Leslie his little brother through around football. We left Leslie's and went home and Dan went home so this was around six PM. I believe I called my voice. Tell Mailbox to see if I had any messages and Lisa had called it was five twenty three. PM that she called she was very excited. She said she had a great day and that she wanted me to call her back. I was going to save the message but for some reason I deleted it then. I called Lisa back and she told me how great of a day it was because Dan had gotten home and she had gotten her driver's license. She said she would be Dan. Chris's and my chauffeur but that we couldn't fool around too much because she knew we would. She said that she had to go to her flute lessons soon but she would call me later that night and then we said goodbye. The thing before that I forgot was that when Dan and I left from Leslie Riches House House. Dan said that he would give me a call later that night as well. That's all I know definitely from that night. As far as I can remember the next day I was called around five. Am I did not wake up. My parents received a call from Lynda mayor. Who is my German teacher and she told me what had happened? Louisa I was broken between five. AM and five thirty am and my parents told me what had happened. As far as they knew which was that Lisa had been murdered and that that had happened at Lee and south woodland between six. Am and six thirty am. I called Christopher Jones and I told him what had happened. I was afraid and he wouldn't find out until later and because he was also a very good friend of Lisa's. I felt that it was important that he find out in early. Two Kris told me that he didn't believe me and that I should stop joking around. He said that he would talk to me later. That day in school and hung up the phone about twenty minutes later. Chris called me back and asked me is is it really true. Catherine Schultz had called him also and told him what had happened when Chris called me back. We decided that we would go over to Catherine's house wherever Gina Raider Kristen Slang and Kim coal were also there. My father drove us over and on the way over we listen to the news report on eleven hundred. Am Radio Joe and this was at seven am. It said that a Shaker Heights girl had been murdered and that she was raped bludgeoned to death. At Catherine's we all talked in cried. And we've got over there. Kim Cole was talking to Kim Rathbone when she got off the phone. She told us that Kim Rathbone had told her that she had heard screams. Brian and Adam Keating Jeff Michael Charlie. Martin also went over to Catherine's that morning we all share the information that we all knew at the time around eight thirty thirty. Am I went to school. With Jeff Michael Charlie Martin and Kristen at school a large group of friends. Such as Judy Miller Jennifer Margulis Rachel Lowenthal enthrall Tanya MINUCCI were all leases and Dan's close friends basically gathered in the band room to share everything we knew about what had happened. Jeff steer you kept trying to call Dan Dreifort but never got through to him. We were told he was at the police station being questioned at second period around nine. Am I went to my math class with Christian slang who also in the class there. Reverend Hai Vaananen talked us all and tried to comfort us the next period we went to German in class. Where a lot of us who weren't even in German went? This was basically leases close friends again. A lot of people I've mentioned before here. Linda Mayor Air Reverend Devonian another clergyman and they all talk to us and tried to help us after this most of us went back to the bathroom again and we just talked about about the great things at least had done in her life. Midway through the period we all went back to Catherine's house when we got the Catherine's Ted full. C'mon Judy Miller Regina Raider Kristen Slang and myself went to pick up flowers for Lisa's family. We got back in. A few people brought these flowers to Lisa's house us at around two. PM Ted Folkman took me home because he was also taking Jeff Steer home and I had planned to go with them and a few others to temple that evening evening once I got home I told my parents that I was going over to the murder scene and I just wanted to see everything for myself. I walked over and I saw the tape. I asked a few policemen if anything had been discovered that they could tell me about. No one had anything to say at this time. Halley warn and Jennifer Jennifer shook saw me and stop their car parked their car and then they came over. They said they had talked to. My parents and my parents told them where I was at this particular time time I saw a man who had a channel five camera I walked over because I wanted to hear what they had to say. I asked the reporter if I could just hear his comments and that was it he said it was okay. He also told me about the three PM. Press conference at City Hall. I heard what he had to say and once he was done he. He asked me questions which I didn't really answer. He was more interested in about Dan. And then Lisa at three. PM We're at City Hall. We sat down in the second row of because we are behind the cameras. I moved to the other side so I can see the chief. Clearly I stayed for the entire time and when it was over I was ready to leave. A few people from the press. Came over to talk to me but I had no comment except to say how great Dan Lisa were both as people and as a couple. I also talked to the chief and said that if you wanted to talk to me I'd be willing to talk. I also spoke to the woman in charge of dealing with the media from the police. I think the public public relations stricter she was at this time. I did not feel that I was in the right state to talk about anything that had happened. So I got an Jennifer shook car with my with Halle Ali and Jennifer and we were driving planning on going to my house and I noticed that the tape had been taken off Lee and south woodland. I saw DEB. dreifort pull out of Dan's driveway. I asked if Dan was home. She said Yeah. Go on in. We pulled into the driveway next to dance and I ran up to see Dan Dan at this time. Judy Miller Rachel Lowenthal Christopher Jones and I were all Dan's house. I don't remember if anyone else was there. Dan and I talked and he told me that he would tell me what happened. Later when other people were not around a few minutes later at around four thirty PM. Dan's other friends left. I called my parents and told them that when Ted folkman called to tell him that I wasn't going to services. I talked to Dan and he told me what had happened that night. And how he was involved. Stanley Kramer was also there. Dan Talked Christopher Jones alone a few times later on that evening. A lot out of Dan's other friends came over but before then Christopher Jones Stanley Kramer. Dan and I sat out on his back porch and talked about everything that had happened at this time. Christopher was called to speak to Sergeant Grey Chris came back and Sergeant Grey also talked us. He said if we ever needed to talk to him or needed to say anything to anyone. We could call them also reiterated that we should not speak to the media if asked at one point that night. Jeff Michael Charlie Martin and and myself were told by Dan that he would show us where Lisa's body was found. We went with Dan. At around eight pm we went to the sidewalk and Brett. Caro- was was there and he was just walking and we all went with Dan and he showed us where he saw the bicycle from the night before a police car came over and took down all of our names and asked assists not to come by there again because we could either get contaminated with evidence or we could mess up was there. That's basically everything I can think of. Being busy doesn't mean that you have to resort to take out or overly processed food because thankfully there's daily harvest. 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This summer I got home from Germany on July Twenty Second Nineteen Ninety and at this particular time Daniel was at the UNITARIAN convention. He got home the following weekend and from that time on we spent a lot of our time together that is until he went to the hospital. I was within the night before he went to the hospital at twelve. AM At this time. Dan and I had planned for me to come back over at about one that night. We had no idea what was going to happen. The next day with Dan going to the hospital I came back at one. Am and I expect to see. Dan Sitting outside waiting for me when I came up though the lights inside. Dan's house were on which was surprise. I went to the back and saw Dan's father yelling at Dan because he would not go to sleep by. Guess fifteen minutes later is father finally stopped yelling Dan. Dan Came Mountain. Said everything was okay. We went downstairs to his howling commando room and we talked until around three. Am about a lot of things. Such as Lisa how much she loved after and how upset he was with his dad. Everything you would expect from two strange teenagers I went home around three And the following. Dan was put into the hospital. Dan and I corresponded through letters and phone calls the hospital. I got Dan's pay phone number from DEB DREIFORT. I called called it a lot but it wasn't until the following Monday that a kid answered for some reason thought it was Dan's father from this time onward without me saying it they thought I was his father whether I would call just about every day one time. Dan came home and I saw actually more than one time another time. I found out from Dan that he that'd be going to the severance bowling lanes. Leeson I went to see him in. We asked for the lane right next to because it was supposed to be our lucky lane. Uh here Lisa. Dan talked but we weren't supposed to know each other so I had a lot of correspondence with Dan for Lisa. I spent almost every day with her. We would talk a lot about Dan because we were mutual friends and she would come over or I would go over there almost every day. We sent him packages. She jumped in our pool with her clothes. Goes on and we basically had a great time. I think I've said just about everything about the summer and Dannon Lisa. Could you describe what you know about the late night meeting between Dan and Lisa and how you found out about the meeting. This was a normal thing for Dan. Lewis had been meet each other late at night. When I was over at Christie's apartment on September thirteenth I realized that Dan Lisa would probably be meeting each other the next day after the murder? I was talking to either Dan or Chris and they told me one of them. that. Dan had told Chris that he was welcome to come. Also if I remember correctly. Texts also told Lisa becoming over that night. Chris did did not go over that night. And that's as far as I believe I know about that. Chris also said that he was very sad that that he didn't go over that night because he hoped hope that he could have done something to the attacker. At least it would not have been murdered. Have you ever gone over to the driver's house late at night. And if so how did you you get into the house or Dan's attention to let him know you're there. Every time that I had gone over there Dan. I had planned on becoming the first time I'm coming over. There was this past summer. Nineteen Ninety damaged always be waiting on the porch. And when I came over we would either talk on the porch or go inside and talk usually in the commando room one other thing. Dan mentioned to me about this night was that he had not even remembered at the time that he was talking to his father. That Lisa was coming over. The only time we're Dan was not waited for me was the time that I talked about when it was Dan's last evening before he went to the hospital. I know Oh that in the past Dan and Kim rathbone and some of his friends had met neither Dan's backyard or Kim's backyard. But I don't know how they signalled each other. Are you aware of the incident where Kevin Young stormed out of a Rava. And if so could you describe what you know about the incident what you know about Kevin Young Cher at around ten thirty. PM On September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. Kevin Young stormed out of Arab. Beka it that's basically what I've heard. This is not unusual for Kevin Young. Who I consider? You're a bit crazy and I say this because in the past he has had a lot of problems with women and in relationships in fact I remember my nineteen ninety yearbook. Kevin said quote. I hope you have better luck with women than I do. Unquote Kevin it. I saw a few days after I'd gotten home from Germany in Arab Biegel. He said that if I saw Dan to tell him how he hated him and how he was mad at him he basically just told me how much of an idiot Dan was. I heard either from Kevin Young on our someone else that he had liked Lisa and that he hated both Dan and Lisa and then he had wished that he could kill both of them. Of course when you hear something like that happy in said usually do not take it seriously because most people have said something like that especially Kevin Young who has said that about many people it would not be out of place leased to be totally surprised if Kevin did kill someone. Did it make you an easy. When Kevin Young said he wanted to kill Dan and Lisa I can say that many things Kevin Kevin is said is made me feel uneasy but now that I think about it I remember this pretty vividly because he was talking about two of my best friends and when Dan came home from MM is unitarian convention? Why Kevin had said that right now? I don't remember what Dan's response was. Could you describe how Chris Young. Kenny Workman Workman Danny driver. Stan Kramer Kevin Young in yourself fit together as friends Chris. Dan and I are close friends. Stan is not got a close friend of Dan. He's more someone we'd see up at Arabic every once in a while Texas deb's boyfriend and because he was always at the dry for its residents. Dan Got to know him better and talk to them more. I had been out with DEB. Dan and tax bowling and a few other times but his friends techs wasn't someone Dan usually hung out with unless his sister was around. Kevin most of all was not hardly even a friend of Dan's or any of the rest of us. He was more of a person that we saw Arab who we didn't particularly like I had nothing against him. I just thought he was crazy. Dandruff for you. Over to his house. On the evening of Thursday September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety. He did not invite me over on Thursday September Thirteenth Eighteenth Nineteen Ninety. I think he may have said I could come over for a few minutes before he had dinner. But I'm not sure about that. Have you ever heard or have you you ever attended a party yet. Did drivers where robitussin was consumed by everybody. They're actually yes. I did not have any robitussin but one night rebecca boat right and Andy Conrad. Dan's house. I call Dan up that night and he said I could stop by. He told me he had some Four announces I believe. And how BECCA and Andy had some Becca 's house when I got over there. BECCA and Andy Bowl said how. It wasn't really doing anything for them. Dan said it usually takes a half hour for you begin to trip. Dan Ran with them in the backyard and circles and try to try to get them to trip he. I went to a bench or something at the back of the yard and would talk with them and try to trip with them or something he tried to do with me. Even though I didn't have any robitussin listen I kept laughing and he said it obviously wasn't working if I was laughing. Their behavior seem normal. I guess eventually they did trip. But that was never able ital- they seem normal to me too damn dry forever tell you need strange effects. He got from consuming robitussin. Yes he told told me many times he wanted me to someday try it with him once but I told him I would never do it. He said that there are stages to the Robitussin. There was one main thing that he he said it did for you. It just made you feel like everything was out there. I'm not sure used to say one specific thing but for some reason I I can't remember. It was not a big change in what you could think he would say. It was the added. Things you saw. All I know is that he has had one bad trip. I don't know how many times he's done it but I know the first time he did it it was at the s U SSI convention he attended. Did tell me what you know about the relationship between Dan's Reifer and Kim rathbone well. They've always been friends and just friends in in fact sometimes. They didn't talk for a long time but they were still friends. I'd ask him how he wouldn't talk to her if she lived right behind him but he said he just didn't see her. She was a friend of both Dan and his family. I remember during the summer. Dan's parents and sister went to Toronto while Dan stayed with the friend named Jamie Greenfield and Kim got the mail for them. They've just been friends at times during Middle School. Seventh and eighth grade. Did they would meet late at night. Especially when Judy Miller was Kim's house and when Brian Keating was at Dan's house because at the time Dan was going out with Judy and Kim was going out with Brian. They have been good friends. That is Kim and Dan. How did you learn that Kim? Rathbone had heard screams on the night. That Lisa PRUITT was murdered. Well if I remember correctly Kim Cole was talking to Kim Rathbone when I got over to Catherine's House on the morning of the fourteenth of September when she got off the phone she told us how Kim Thuch could have done something because she thought she had heard screams that night. Kim Cole said that sounded. I'd like Kim. Rathbone felt that it was partly her fault. I also talked to Bryan Keating who is still can rathbone boyfriend and he told me how Kim rathbone had called him around seven. Am on the fourteenth and told him what happened to Lisa and called back right after they had hung up and said that she thought she had also heard screaming that night the thirteenth to recall. Who mentioned to you? That texts workman's footprints may have been found near the murder scene. They believe that was Dan. Dreifort to your knowledge. How did Dan Dr Father Phil About Dan's relationship with Lisa pruitt? As far as I. Yeah I know he had no problem with it. I don't think Dan's father ever met Lisa. I remember talking to Lisa about Dan's father and the way he treated. Dan and Lisa said that she had never met Dan's father when he's been like that and she might have said that she never met Dan's father at all but I do know they met when Lisa went out with Dan weekend when Dan was home from the hospital. How did you feel about Dan Dreifort? Dating Lisa Pruitt. I remember the day that I found out. I believe it was April Fourth Nineteen Ninety and that was the day after they decided to go together. Lisa came in German class and told told me in. That was so excited. I remember I was so happy because Dan and Lisa are two of my closest friends and I felt so highly of both of them they broke. Oh Cup right before I came home from Germany in fact I think it was the day I came home from Germany and I saw Lisa right when I got off the plane because Regina was is going to stay with them. I asked how Dan was and she said that they didn't WanNa talk about it right now for the next two or so weeks. I spend all my time with Dan and and Lisa separately. I kept telling them how I hope they got back together. Because the reason they broke up was a reason that didn't really matter. Dan was just confused and really just wanted a some time alone for a little while and Dan was not home though when I had seen Lisa and from the first time. I saw In Shaker after I got back he told me how much she loved Lisa and how he wanted to get back together with her. Lisa wanted to get back together with him but she kept saying how everyone else else thought. She should be a certain way since they broke up. Dan and I were driven over to. Lisa's one night by some friends and Dannon Lisa talked and it was was obvious that they want to be back together. In fact if I remember correctly either that night or the following night Dan went over there. In fact yeah I remember. He went over there a few times late at night without her parents. Knowing during the summer on August third nineteen ninety. They were couple again so they didn't spend that much time away from each other really They wanted to be together from all my time with them. I think they really they did love each other. Next up in the hot seat is seventeen year. Old Rebecca Beca boat right from the subject of the conversation. Is Kevin Young so I know Dan driver because two summers ago I went to Germany with his sister. Debbie dreifort W I became close friends and through her. I met her brother and after that Dan dreifort night became pretty good friends Thursday September thirteenth nineteen ninety. Dan called me at about eight. Twenty P M. He had asked me if I wanted to come over later and told me a bunch of people were coming Over later and I said WHO and he said Chris Jones Lisa Pruitt and maybe Kevin Young and be Dan Messing her. I told him I didn't think I could get out. I was tired and I wanted to get to bed not was the end of our conversation. Friday September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety during first period at the high school. Will Dr Rumba said that Lisa Pruitt had been involved in a homicide last night and since nobody really knew how it happened. The basic rumor was that she'd been hit on the head with a blunt objects and her body had been found on the sidewalk corner of South Woodland and leave later at around one thirty PM. I went up to our Beka at Shaker Square and and since I was waiting for Debbie dry for it to come in and since Kevin Young was the only one I knew up there I sat down and talked to him. Basically he said has David as bad as everybody else's else's and I said well it was pretty depressing. I said it doesn't seem like the type of things that would happen in Shaker and I was really worried for Dan dreifort since no doubt. He's probably a suspect. Somehow or other we got onto the topic of rape. I said well if she was raped. Isn't there a possibility that they will find some semen sample on her body and Kevin. I said I don't think she was raped. I said well just assuming from that. They will be able to prove who did it. And he said while tests like that or one hundred percent accurate so of Dan dreifort did it. Then chances are they probably know already but I really don't think she was raped then. I told him that I had heard she'd been pulled from her bike around the corner on South Woodland before Lee and that she'd been hit on the head with a blunt object. He said No. I think she was stabbed. I said well that's not what I heard. And he said I'm pretty sure she was stabbed. Then I said it would make sense that her bike would have been found in the area like before you reach lease since from what I heard. Her body had been found on the sidewalk on the corner of South Woodland and Lee. Kevin said he thought they founded around there in the field nearby around that area. I said not that it really matters since nobody really knows was except police. He said yes. You're probably right then. I went to get a pink lemonade and when I came back I said some extremely psychotic person had to have done this and and he said what makes you think that and I said well it's not the type of thing perfectly sane person does then. He's sort of like sat up and said really loudly in really quickly. While I would only kill in self-defence then he likes switch to the Persian Gulf issue. He said what does for Breezy. Oh think about what's going on and I said he thinks that they should reinstitute the draft and to add women to it which I think is pretty unfair. This was said pretty jokingly he said why and I said since women the obvious the superior sex. I don't think we should be forced to go off to war and be killed. He said but you think people who are my age and are about to be headed off to college should be forced to go thirty killed and I said well. That's what for Breezy. Oh thanks and Kevin sort of rolling his eyes and kept saying my God. I should storm his house and kill him. Then I said said somewhat jokingly as long as I'm not shipped off and he said Oh because you don't think women should be killed and I said exactly he said I don't know about that I can think of a few women and I would like to see dead. I said like who he said. The only thing I want to know is if the. US is in the Persian Gulf because of NATO pride or oil and he kept on babbling doubling about this. I got bored so I told him I had to go pick up my mother which I did when you talk to Kevin Young Arab on Friday afternoon to tell. Oh you how he learned of the death of Lisa Pruitt now. Did Kevin mentioned anything about being invited over to Dan dry goods house the night before you know. Did Kevin Young ever indicate directly to you any kind of romantic feelings towards Lisa Pruitt. Yeah but it was quite a while ago ago it was like in the context like Dan was a god because he could get any woman he wanted and I said why do you care. And he said because she has a great ass I said why why do you like her or something and he said I'm not gonNa tell you because you'll go. Tell Dan I said I don't care one way or another how people feel sexually towards Lisa and he said if you where a guy you would. Have you ever known Kevin Young or have you ever seen Kevin Young carrying any type of weapon now on Friday afternoon Arabica when you spoke to Kevin Young. Did he mention any conversation. He had with Kenny Workman the night before. Now is there anything else that you wish to add to this statement now. Finally the police speak to sixteen year old. Christopher Jones a close friend of Dan drives last last Thursday September Thirteenth Nineteen Ninety at the tenth period. I was met outside my tenth period class room by Dan driver and Lisa pruitt in several friends. I spoke to Dan and went to my locker. Got My bike out. In as I was writing I ran into Dan. Dreifort again outside the school. We wrote our bikes around the school in Meta with Dan Messanger we wrote a Dan Messing her house and he picked up his bike. We wrote over to my apartment. We stayed there until about four ten pm than they both wrote off on their bikes and I ran back to school for fencing. I got back from fencing at about six forty PM. I had a note saying that Lisa pruitt called at five thirty PM. I called her back but her phone was busy. I figured she wanted to get a hold of Dan dreifort. It had Oregon Ahold of him and so I didn't call her back again. Then I got a call from Dan driver at about eight PM. We talked for a while. He said that he was going to have some people over later in that I should give him a call if I wanted to come. I called him back at about ten PM. He said at Tex over his house in that Lisa might show up later and that I could stop by if I wanted to give them a call later I called him back back about a quarter to eleven. PM or so and said that. I wasn't gonNA come over that I finished a paper. I was working on and went to bed that went to bed between eleven NPR. I'm in twelve midnight. I got a call at six thirty. AM on September fourteenth. Nineteen Ninety from Dan Messing her saying that Lisa pruitt had been murdered. I I didn't really believe him and tried going back to sleep and I got a call about five minutes later from Kathryn. Schultz's saying the same thing. I asked her if I could go to her house because some other people were over there at the time and I called back. Dan Messing her in asked him. If you wanted to go over to Kathryn Schultz's health. He said he could pick me up and he picked me up about five five minutes later and we drove over there. We heard on the news. At Lisa died we gotta Catherine's health and Catherine was there shelby. Hyphen and Chris encouraged him from Germany. Mini Gina who is Lisa's foreign exchange student in Kim Coal. We stayed there about a half an hour. All the girls left except for Kirsten and then Brian Adam Adam. Keaton came over. Jeff Michael and Charlie Martin also came over. We talked for about a half an hour. Then I got a ride back to my apartment. From the Keating's I stayed there until halfway halfway through the second period. Then I went to school. I met up with some people there and we talked to several teachers about to death. Then we walked around until third period I went to third period. German class about half the class were close. Friends of Lisa's half were regular students in that class. We talked to several counselors and ministers about. Lisa's death. Out of that class ended. I went outside for a while about a half a period in sat under a tree. I came back into school into the bedroom. Where about fifteen close friends? Lisa were gathered talking talking about her. We split up after about a half an hour and then went to talk to certain teachers and we got back together and got rides to Kathryn. Schultz's house there. We talked to about twenty people at Catherine's House we ate lunch talked about things there about three PM Myself Jennifer Margulis and Judy. Judy Miller and Rachel Lowenthal whenever Dan Drivers House. Dan Wasn't home. The please searching all around the house and Brett Kuro was was there about fifteen minutes later. Mrs Dreifort came in and asked if it was all right to come into the house then she went back and came back to the House with the car with Mr Dreifort Dandruff. For and Debbie dreifort. We went inside. We went into dance. TV room basically there for a while and then a little bit later. Dan Messinger and Haley warned showed up after going to a press conference at the City Hall. We talked about what they had heard there and eventually we watched the news. Dan was pretty angry about being a suspect or the way they portrayed that pretty much from there many people came and left Ann's house at night eventually me and Dan Messenger got a ride from Scott Free Arrow to the PRUITT's house. We talk to Mr Pruitt. We went up into their house and spend a little time in Lisa's room on the next episode. We'll come back to Chris Jones interview with police but until then think on what we've just learned in the hours after Lisa pruitt's murder Dan dreifort is the main suspect. A group of dance friends meet up to discuss the case. The kids don't want it to be their friend. Nobody wants it to be Dan driver after that meeting the teens tell police. It was Kevin Young from that moment on the only suspect in the eyes of the police is the weird kid in school Kevin Young though not one piece of evidence links him to the crime. Hi while all. This is going on two of Dan's friends talk their way into Lisa's home to be alone in her room. In what world does that request make sense. What was the purpose of that visit with something taken from that room room? All we know for sure is that police never followed up on this detail. They never again. Ask Chris what he was doing. And and Lisa pruitt's bedroom

Dan Dan Dan Dreifort Dannon Lisa Kevin Kevin Kevin Young Lisa. pruitt murder Nineteen Ninety Dan Dry Dan Messing Dan Messenger Dan Her Dan Came Mountain Chris Dan Heads Dan I Dan driver Dan Sitting Dan Ran Catherine Schultz
From the Writers' Room: Shannon Houston

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58:20 min | 3 months ago

From the Writers' Room: Shannon Houston

"Welcome back to talk shit and read this is Roe and today. I've got a special guest for you. Were being joined by one of the writers from the Little Fires Everywhere Writing Room Shannon in. Houston she is the lead writer for episode six. My personal favorite the UNCANNY and join. I got the opportunity to sit down and spend some time asking her questions and discussing the show Shannon. Thank you so much. We're so excited to talk to you about everything little fires everywhere so thank you for joining us. Yes of course. I'm so excited. I'm excited to chat with you guys. Yeah so I Kinda WanNa start from the beginning and how you got to the writer's room for little fires everywhere as well as other writers rooms been apart up or in the process of being apart. I notice that you were a former. Tv Editor as magazine once asked that transition from editorial to a writer's room for you a great question and it's different for everybody you know. I like to tell my version of what happened. But obviously there's no blueprint or anything like that but the way it happened for me was I was falling falling in love with TV and I was writing about TV and film. And I know that again not true for everybody but for me what worked was finding the stuff that I loved so much and writing about what was so specific about it to me like doing this thing that I think I had avoided for years which was making it personal saying I actually love the show because I have mommy issues and here like five of the Mommy Issues. I have not speaking to me in this. Tv Show I love this show because I am adopted and I was in foster care so sibling. Narratives are really complicated. An exciting to me and kind of letting myself be more emotional and more personal with my writing. Even though I was writing the critic or because I was writing a credit however you want to read it so. I think that that's kind of where I started to find my voice and I didn't even think I had one or that I needed to find one but that's where it came from was me kind of letting myself more personal and more specific about the shows that I was relating to and developing in in slow and small ways relationships with some of those creators. People like Joe Solloway Michele Green who I was like obsessed with and you know I wanted to do some version of what they were doing and allowing myself to be vulnerable and respectful but reach out and say I love this thing that you're doing. I'm kind of trying to do it. Maybe you can look at this thing that I wrote or you know But yes developing relationships with some of those people and eventually that that translated into Joe Solloway production company teaming. Up with need to sell pilots Amazon wants We saw that pilot everything kind of kicked off from there. That's amazing that's such a wonderful story. Thank you for sharing that. You mentioned Jill Solloway and Michel Green throughout this process throughout this transition into the writer's room selling pilots things of that nature. What are other who are other writers and producers that you have considered her mentor or someone to lean on as you were making this move. I don't think I would pick one person I would say that. In every writer's room there has always been a writer or showrunner that I have stepped aside with and said like I love this thing that you did here or or can you explain this to me. Or what should I be doing better and I know? Everybody hasn't had that experience but for the most part. I get good responses as far as like good answers. I've been told when I'm doing something wrong or what. I'm not pushing myself hard enough. I've been told Mike Batt award over on a pilot that I shouldn't keep you like things like that so I don't I don't necessarily feel like it's been one person. Obviously Joe all the way to huge thing and helping me. I write a pilot and then bringing it to Amazon me. Green took a chance on me by and you know inviting needs to come work on lovecraft country on. Hbo That was my third TV show. And so I you know those two people have done huge things but again like a lot of the writers that I've worked with. I'm in love in the Lovecraft Room E. Homa Sonya J. The last room that I worked on Romo Muhammad Liz Taylor little fires ever Attica. Locke like I've I think I've been lucky to have people a lot of people in mentoring physicians in that way and I do. I would also say that even if you don't have that if you if you don't feel like you have that right now like I feel like I've always watched movies and TV and I've always listened to music and whether I was aware of it or not I was being mentored in some way there were there. Were people reaching out to me with their art and I felt like I was sounds very already already but like I was in conversation with them whether I thought that way or not but looking back and looking at what. A lot of my influences are like that's mentorship too so I would say that even if you don't for those people who aren't in the industry like there are other ways that you're being mentor. You might not even be aware of. That's actually a very good point in terms of consuming are and kind of understanding this writer producer this directors kind of style. And how do you adapt to that or like? How do you learn from that when you were finding your voice changing over from being a critic writing into a more thing? It's kind of interesting the places where you said. Somebody told me I was doing something wrong. You know but someone who's previously edited other people. It's it's interesting when you're on the other end of getting that information so and had heard and then you go asked for help and now I'm getting it so I I am. I didn't mean to cut you off. It's funny as you said that I wanted to be clear. It doesn't always feel good. You take it in and you take you take what you need from it. Well it seems like you've incorporated everything that you're learning so what really drew you to little fires other everywhere. Because I've read luck camp craft country. I'm super excited for it. So when joy I mention your name I my head I was like I knew. I know that name but I don't know it from this from my book. Yes so lovecraft countries kind of like you know all the way over in the horror lane and then you're over here now and you had to switch to a mindset of being like family drama and like full drama so what drew you to this project. Country is also a family drama with monsters. All kinds of things. So in an odd way it wasn't as crazy of transition if you might think and family dramas and those are the stories that I wanNa Tau. So what's cool about knowing that? I love family drama as I do. Feel like you could plot me into any genre or any show and I would still know what to do their all. I will say I was nervous about lovecraft. I was like is this really might like. Do I know how to do these things but I was excited to learn to do those things and also to realize at the end of the day? This is a family story and I know how to tell those so with little fires everywhere. Similar thing of like ooh family drama. I'm in Mommy issues. Yes please. I'm adopted. I was in foster care. I have the mommy issues And then I was like I don't know it was. It was like a lot of different things lined up then. Finding the show was set in Shaker Heights. I graduated from High School in Cleveland. My first apartment was right around the corner from Shaker. Heights Cleveland Shaker. Heights are two completely different by just knowing that I still had something in common with this novel and knowing that there was this adoption storyline. That was in there and not only adopted. But I've realized Relations with people. I don't share the exact same. Use that a lot of a adopted people share. And I'd been interrogating the notion of adoption for a long time. And so all of all of those things and then of course you say. Carrie Washington and Reese Witherspoon. And I'm like yes please. Yes yes I'm not saying no to write on this show. Thank you and so so. That's what drew me to the project. And knowing that they were going to be a lot of women in the room and that my hope was that we would get to go to some dark places and I did get the fence that Liz the show runner. Liz Taylor was okay with that. And that's what I was really excited about. I think we kind of went there. I hope that it came through. You think I'm sorry. We're said we started to talk about the uncanny because that episode as far as I'm concerned is such a pivotal point of little fires everywhere like it's the one episode that truly is a demarcation from the book because the entire Elena flashback. Cut Away Scene. Story that you had to come up with and Bravo by the way doesn't exist outside of throwaway comments in the story and you had to take like a throwaway about a boyfriend before bill and turn that into a whole moment and so I was just really curious when you were coming up and thinking about how you wanted to tab this moment because you not only had to encapsulate their past you had to keep it with the voices that had already been established from the four five previous episodes so in addition to Kinda like deciding what you wanted to pull from the book and from what the other writers when they were taking the lead on episodes had put in. What was kind of your thought process and putting together the UNCANNY and US taking us back in time? Yes so I think and thank you. I'm glad you liked at my remove. Leander was like no this. Is it like the show's been fantastic leading up to it? But it was in families the moment texts that all collectively lost their minds and that was that was it that was the that was the. That's the show. Please share with us your thoughts on how well and you know the with Elena and this was this was a challenge. We have this fucking awesome back story from. We're going to New York eighties or doing art very early on I was like pauline needs to be black. Please please please. I need to tell the story about these. Two black women mentoring each other each other going further than that. All of those things you know. I really want to tell that story. We thought like what are we going to do with Elena? And give her something. Where when you're in a latest scenes you're not like hiding to be back with MIA even though that may happen anyway but like we wanted to. We did look at it like this is now almost like a competition storylines like we need to come hard with. Elena and the questions that we started asking ourselves. How do you get an Elena hot where this person come from you? Don't just wake up and start color coating your calendar. You just wake up and decide that you know all of the lunch bags are going to be labeled and the pancakes are going to be in those letter shapes and that there's always a the picture with the cads like that person does not come from nowhere. That person comes from something and that's kind of also what the what the whole show is about. Where do you get these peop- ball? You have a town like Shaker. Well how do you get a town light Shaker will I? You have to have in America. And then you have to have a town that decides we're not gonNA like the rest of America. Were better than that. And this is how we're going to show it and then we realized that there's all kinds of lies within that this this mythic town so Elena comes from Shaker. So we have Shaker shakers character and we'd build from that and then Elena has this combative relationship with her daughter. Were where does that come from? And this is where a lot of the MOMS in the room. The parents lay their shit on the line. And be like okay love for me. I have a child Mu. I have always called my difficult child in over the years. I've had people point out to me that he's actually not necessarily more difficult than the other children but I was going through a particular thing when he was born and I was struggling with my own things. I was dealing with losses. That had nothing to do with this child and I had to look at it and after a long time and I'm still dealing with it be like I'm putting shit onto this child who is actually just acting like a completely normal child who have said that Izzy they read is and episode sex as a baby and that's one interpretation but she's also just a baby. We never said she was that she was responding to Elena energy like I mean I was I was. I was people called when they were having difficulty because I was a nanny. My Mom was a foster child. Caretaker and Like I went through all that training and then after I was like well. I don't sleep so I used to be the nighttime nanny. I would come in when it's time to like dinner homework. Put kids to bed. I was like that baby knows her. Mother is unhappy yes I think. That's I think it's so true that there's a feeding off of of the energy so Elena comes into this pregnancy already devastated and we had to introduce Alana's mother because again. How do you get Lana while we have to go back to mom and I fucking love? That scene between the two of them and I didn't know I was going to love it. So much. That the actresses so brilliant and you can see just a few short exchanges Elena is in our show this privileged white woman and in this moment. She is being told. You actually don't have a choice like there's nothing blocking you from going and getting an abortion other than your mother is telling you we don't do that. Those things are not meant for people like us and I can't remember where exactly that line came from in the room but I just thought that that was an interesting complication in the privilege story. Of like what happens when you have access to a thing and somebody is just telling you you're not allowed to have that thing. That's bizarre uncomfortable. And now you're you're carrying this fourth child and your husband is telling you who's GonNa help not fuck? He's not and now the baby's crying you go get a pacifier. But but in general it was about like an and there is a line in the book. That that Celeste wrote. So Beautifully Mia Interrogating Elena. And saying what did you give up? So that's part of what we're trying to answer an episode sex and that's what James is saying like you gave up on me. You gave up on Peres and it's not Paris. It's just like other things. That are not Shaker Heights you gave up on. And that's what you're longing for and that's why you're standing up this payphone making this phone call and even though you end up running back to Shaker Heights. There's that thing lingering in the back of your mind and when you see me that thing feels attacked as you're looking at a person who seems to have who seems to do whatever the fuck she wants. And then we find out that that's not entirely true about me as she's running away from things to yeah well it pulled. Lawson rejection as themes to the forefront of the episode. But it did in a way that you don't generally tend to speak about when you were talking about. I mean several of my friends I went to a Pwi and like the moment where the mother looked at her and said we don't do that. What in my entire text groups? It's just not why girls because I love watching messy white girl. Tv White Girl since Glorious Happy Making same but the conversation strike. She's like Oh she must have attended the same conference on mothering that my mom did like one girl just literally wrote in type in all capital letters flashback. I'll talk to you later. I was like are you okay. Do I need to call you? She's like I just need a minute and more wine. So but it was so smooth list because presenting what you did about Mia and her family and the expectation that they had for her and I don't know how many times I screamed at the screen. Y'All need to stop saying she going into a Ho you bring into existence but it was just beautifully done because I was like dion. No My altis. All five of them do know them. But on the other hand you had the same equity that you gave to Elena when you would think hers would be more of the milk. Sop Story or you'd see her past and there wouldn't be any empathy and I was angry at you because I was like see now. I got to understand why she's messed up and I don't like her. How dare. Yeah but yeah so use loss and rejection and you put a different spin on looking at those teams within a familial environment but then made you have to think about them in terms of agency and womanhood and the expectation and supposed to because as much as people think they're running around here. I'm a feminist. I don't do this. I am empowered. I have control supposed to is huge and for Elena. It ended up in a color coded board of what my children doing and smash my husband on Saturdays as punishment for the fact that every time he looked at me. I got pregnant so e Saturday. Don't talk this week and man. I wanted to say something too about the empathy that you feel when I wrote the episode. I struggled because I was like. I'm there are certain things I'm not GonNa let alone a off the hook for namely racist and there's I hope no moment in the episode where your like. Oh that's why she called the cops on Mea. I totally get it. She's absolved now. What I'm really targeting in that episode. And what I what we wanted to target as a group is that relationship with Izzy and at the end of the show and we talked about this at great lanes to. I don't think we absolve Elena. She says the name is Izzy when she takes the father out of the cage in that in the in the finale and we are trying to close the chapter on that story but the Karen Element of Elena I can feel sympathy for her as a mother and episode sex and not absolve her of those things and not let her off the hook for all of those those other things and again. We used her mother. To show you know her mother was on the board of The Integration Board for Shaker. This is another reason why Elena is who she is. And can't imagine a world where she's doing anything wrong racist problematic. Whatever you WANNA call it because of what she comes from and we have that little that little conversation about what. It actually needs to integrate Shaker. Welcome to find. It meant that they were giving money to white people to stay. It really didn't mean what we thought it meant when we first started talking about it so So those little things are in there. So yeah I my goal was tell the story of Elena help people to understand this relationship with izzy which I can identify with having gone through a similar thing and also tell the story of like who what and who Atlanta comes from speaking to Moron notting link people off the hook for the racism. I read little fires everywhere and I don't know why I think it's because Seles left space in her reading in her writing for the reader to be able to kind of bring some of what they understood about their experience or things that they had witnessed to it so me as always been coded black for me. Even though I knew affirmatively in the front of my mind she wasn't but because there was space in that air. I'm like I was like mom is clean people's houses. She's worked in a bank on the sidelines. She you know she was super domestic. Most of it is because she's like y'all and come to my house anyway own. Pay Me to come and cook. I'm GonNa Take Your Mama money. You go eat at show tape. But but when you put that together and you were bringing kind of the more race to the forefront of this story and changing it's just from being working class ninety s woman to upper-class Nineties woman and they're both white what was the feeling or the thought and the writer's room when it became obvious like you said Pauline. Please let her be black. I want to tell the story. It was like what was kind of the vibe and the process of bringing that forward and making sure that it felt authentic. When you wrote it in this story it was hard. I was terrified. I was worried we weren't gonNA pull it off. I just kept thinking. Holy Shit. It's the year that it is and we are going to tell a story about a black woman working in a white woman house and we're going to try and that's not what the story is a bauer at all. That's not what the book about. However the minute that you cast Kerry Washington now. We have to talk about race. In a way that Celeste didn't have to in the book in the same way. Do you know what I'm saying? So my initial feeling was was like literal fear. And being like how to how we're GONNA do this and it and it changed things. It changed me. Ed is much Oscar in the buck. And we've got not critique and she's an I- i- problem which is that too. I said even in a version where we kept the character not that she was white. But it's if MIA was white in the show I would still be troubled by a domestic worker. Who is caretaking for everybody in the house? In some way she has these clashes with Elena but even there a little bit. They're softer and the novel. The LEXI storyline became very different by the time episode. Five rolls around Do we want to seeing e-eh caretaking for Lexi like she doesn't the book making her food talking her in making sure she's okay. She's okay now and I probably lost my voice screaming when we were breaking episode. Five about how much we couldn't do that. And honestly I was just never I was never sure until the episode aired and I always would say this I would say so that other black writers in the room who we we would talk. Sometimes we would say like okay. That's going to be a great scene are like I'm glad we fought for best. 'cause this this feels better now and I would always say I'm not saying anything until the episode airs and Black Women Collectively. Tell us that we did okay. And of course there. There's no monolith there's no one voice but now I feel like okay all those times when we said Mya should not smile. Mia should not give her even an inch in this scene committed difference in the way that the story and about presenting itself in all honesty the thing that you took out of Mea was the thing that disconnected me from her when I was reading the book. There's this weird you call it softness. It was like it was kind of like this willful naievty like she kept pushing herself to to hold onto something and after watching episode six. I was like well now that I know this story with their family. And I've seen what happened the Warren. Maybe that would make more sense but but you gave it to her somewhere else. So she was still in her core and it was still in her personality. But I I feel like you guys taking out that giving her an edge that felt realistic not only made it contemporary but it also made it super nineties. 'cause that's that's my. Mama Oh and I would agree about the. I think the softness comes in absolutely with the relationship is easy and it can be very hot and cold but but towards the end. I think there's a consistent warmness because she recognizes a struck an internally struggling artists internally struggling queer artists to another so I think that that is super super super helpful and also if she wasn't black that seen in the last episode was she drags Elena. She's a way in. Give it up for fill. Last seen in particular does not would not hit as a black woman consistently Kerry Washington. Just way in this way. And she's got the ball. Let me know academia so wonderful. But he's in the middle of episode six. We were talking about this joy if she hadn't been white and you were talking about the development of the relationship and the dynamics of power that we're coming up between them as you did flashback to how they got to who they are as adult. I don't think it would have hit the same. You wouldn't have had the same connection. You may not have drawn the same connections to what rejection of their mother in the different ways that it did because it wouldn't have felt the same if they had both been white and maybe that's just because I'm black it could be. I mean I can't not be black. I'm black but yeah watching me. Go home and her parents who were super religious. Say if you go to his funeral they'll be questions. I was like that is to me so we both grew up in Church. She's Catholic. I'm hit a Costco Beryllium nondenominational and that scene in particular. I was just like any Caribbean parents. I was like Yup and a lot of a lot of people were like. Oh my God how could they not let her go to the funeral? And then a lot of black people were like. I can kind of see how that happens. And then west Indian people were like. Oh yeah she was never going. I don't know why she put the dress so her here tied up sitting on the couch. She wasn't going anywhere right like I. I think we can all agree not cool to absolutely should have been like we all know somebody direct experience where we were just like. I don't like yeah. We talked about that. Cnn Lot and how harsh. It would be an I but it's interesting now. Being a mom and telling these stories I can easily go. Okay Shannon your mom. Your daughter shows up very pregnant. No forewarning you just. You're getting ready to bury another child. You're not going to make the best decision of your life. You're going to make an emotional decision. And yes you are thinking about being at a funeral surrounded by people being asked a question and what we what we talked about was. This isn't even a yes. My daughter went to New York and got pregnant. And she's going to be a mom. That's not that's not the answer that me as mom would be able to give to people. The answer is yes. My daughter is pregnant. No she's not keeping the child she's having the child for somebody else yet and they've eight her. She said that she art school. That's I mean. It's a very nineties thing like okay. We're now going out in an offering up the room. Let me rephrase that the dynamic that you gave to her family were they talked about her going to New York and their hesitation and their deep lay hands on you and pray that you come back to the same child that you've left and that that was actually a mandate required and then for you to walk in. It could have been anything like. She could have changed her style and mode of dress. I mean she could have come with a friend. Pauline could have come with her. You know it truly could have been anything and you would have seen this this this rejection and and because it was a time of crisis and you even though you know people are making bad decisions the way that you guys played it and and you the words that you gave him the say what you use from the book and then what you pulled. That was more authentic to come from a black experience. In this moment it was almost it was it was actually uncanny but it was. I mean I was like the that the irony of the name of this episode was really pertinent but yeah like I text a friend of mine. I'm like how you doing over there. She's like girl girl Mama just watch this. She's she's in my phone because she actually was a surrogate when we were in college and it was because her parents couldn't make her tuition for her last semester. And somebody in her class was like you. Are you have a really high q? Europe Bachelor Science Major. You'RE BEAUTIFUL. You're going to an elite college. People will pay for your eggs and so she originally was just looking to sell her eggs pacture. That's what you WanNa do with your life. I mean take hormones and then give away the okay and then she ran into this couple who were friends with the professor and then she agreed to surrogacy and they agreed to cover her tuition and given the tuition was over. Fifty thousand dollars. I mean the I so. She didn't tell her parents like they put her in an apartment she stayed in summer. School told her mom. I'm taking extra credit so I congratulate early. Her parents surprised her and came to visit armide. Yes I sitting here. I was like what and this was in ninety five so yeah and we knew what her mama got the. Because we heard her we heard her very black very Jamaican mother from the Student Center which will probably twelve buildings away. I was like we make sure no one gets murdered. So watching all of this and having a different perspective on it and her mom was like I don't know why they didn't just say that she was doing something and go to the church and had them lay hands and that she's giving a gift of life and her daughters like Yona. Why this is amazing so love. It was perfect. I mean you guys I like you. Hit a lot of notes for a lot of people like it was a very common thing that if you went to College especially if you were a black person at a PWI. Who Wasn't there. Even if he were on an athletic scholarship people used to come in solicit you to see if he would be willing to donate eggs or Dussehra and the offers were ludicrous. And Ain't nobody ever fall off train or subway that I know of but it was a huge thing in the mid eighties through the nineties for for Serik gacy and donations. So I thought it was incredible. I thought it was brilliantly done and yeah I watched a lot of my friends. Parents flashback at least even to the conversation. 'cause like my old roommate is super white like. I don't know she could possibly get wider. This is hurt. She says it. Aca Say she's like I'm so white it's bad I like you have to point out to me when I've been to white. In a conversation she got. She got approached for surrogacy when we were in school and she talked to her mom and decided against it because her mother was like. That's not who we are. We don't do that if you're having a baby you're keeping the baby so unless you're prepared to be somebody's Mama you know. And so. They talked to her priest and the priest was like. Oh No. That's not. That's not God's plan we don't play with like you know it's God's will they can't have babies so watching all of this as a part of me is story but from the perspective of the person who's the Serguei like not madeleine the mother right right. Which is the story and you know. I wish I wish I fucking love Madeleine. I wish we had more time. Refer I love Nicole Bahari? She was so incredible But that's that's another that's another story and we didn't even know what you just like that. What you just said about the history of service you. We did not talk about that that much. You know we pulled what we could from the book and we did some research. But that's I'm literally like that's a whole other. Tv show. That's a whole other movie right there. That's incredible I went. I also went to a PWI. I did not go to the. Pwi In the nine hundred eighty s orange. Pwi and the two thousand two thousand. I was the baby. Yes but I will say and then I'll ask my final question. I will say the relationship between or non relationship between Lexi and Pearl really resonated with me. I went to an Ivy League school. Not Go the to Penn but to see her work get stolen that a specific level of pain in my heart because I remember the strife I went through trying to apply and right the right story and it had to be a niche ter- of showcasing bartell and kind of capitalizing off of needing a lower economic situation being from the South Bronx and being a black girl from South Bronx Daring to apply for Ivy League school and so to see that. Get Co and stolen for Lexi to get in. I was raging. I just want to let y'all know some things to me that I was like. Wow I didn't know I was tight about this but I don't like them feel this way. Just want to point that out. That was something very personal. Our just like no. This is unacceptable. Yeah little let you know a whole thing about yourself so you didn't know you retired about it. It completely re introduced the idea of what a micro aggression is and the role it plays in everyday life and how it's embedded in generational familial trauma so yeah. I broke a remote. I through my laptop at one point in time and I've now damaged in. Hd cables need a new one raft. A move all the technology away from you. Yeah I didn't watch them going forward. All Lists Atlas hold reasons having a wonderful quarantine but she did that. Well she should be out every episode. I was just sitting there. Like reese I love you. I think you are wonderful actress. I think you're wonderful human being but why the scream but the scream but in your episodes Particularly you guys decided to actually use younger. Actresses is younger res as younger Mia and Younger Elena and I listened to the official podcast where they were talking about how they like you know soft stocked Kerry and reese to kind of get a sensibility but when you were writing them and you knew that you were actually going to have younger actors. What what did you feel like that gave you kind of like the idea of the freedom that you could do? When you bringing this in visualizing it to life and so interesting when I wrote it that was not the plan. We have not decided that that younger actors would be cast so we were still working under the idea that maybe you know you would do like the Americans does and you would put a recent ponytail. Give her some bangs. You know like that was we. Were still thinking about using the same actresses. When I found out that they were going to go with younger actors. I thought well this is interesting. Because the episode is the UNCANNY and that speech that pauline gives is giving the definition of it vary like Dorky Very Shannon put in a little frayed but the definition is you're looking at a thing it looks like a familiar thing but it is both familiar and unfamiliar. It's pleasurable and also haunting and that is exactly how you feel watching tiffany boone. Nia you're like it. Looks Like Carrie? Washington moves like her quivers like her. It walks like her. But it's not it's literally an uncanny performance and that was exciting to me because I'm like once we had settled on that as the title on once we it took a while to figure out what holly meets was going to be. But that first speech being about the canny and using that as a guide for me as artwork just By virtue of casting an Associate Rob and Tiffany Blue Moon said then elevate. That notion was very exciting for me so I wasn't writing with them in mind And I'm Kinda glad that I wasn't because I don't I don't know if that would have changed the way that I that I wrote it But they took that material and they looked at those actresses an and they did within a dead and I do think at odds. I think it made episode better definitely. Yeah I would say if they're not in the ward's Talk I don't know what's wrong with everybody. Ben Amazonia Rob Intensity Boone fantastic performances and I agree with the uncanny because they got the mannerisms of recent Kerry as actresses down to a science that it was haunting to your point terrifying to watch. It was like time with them all day. Did you follow them all day? Like the product of that I bought just well done across the board. But I'm GonNa talk a little bit about a part of an episode that you contributed to that was so pivotal to the ending of the series. And that's obviously pearls home at the end of episode eight and I saw you tweet being like I when I wrote it. I knew this was like killed it And I agree definitely killed it. It's such a wonderful beautiful recap of the entire series and so was it wasn't a team decision to leverage the poem as like a series recap to kind describe this relationship between you know. Pauline Mia Pearl the women in the Center of the Warren Family Have you read poetry in your personal life because it was just so well done listening to it? I was like this is all ANC you so much. I fucking love the problem I I am. I said on twitter poetry with my I love when I went to Sarah Lawrence. I went to study poetry and Had My first poetry professor amazing incredible person Suzanne Gardenier and Like just life changing and the joke is everybody goes to Sarah. Lawrence and takes poetry workshops Even the people who say that they're not going to end up doing it. But I loved my my workshops and so so the idea came from. Liz had asked me to write a poem for Pearl for the pilot where she reads her poem to Moody in the Ice Cream Truck And she was like. I don't know if you don't want to you don't have to. I was like the POM POM has done. I already have the poem. It's in my head joke was I wrote it five minutes. It took me five minutes. I was in the back of the newburgh coming in to the room and I had the poem done and she couldn't believe that when you study poetry it's really just like anything else. There's kind of a formula and you can embrace the different formulas deviate away from them. Or maybe I have my own formula. Whatever it is I do like to remind people I was writing in the voice of the fifteen year old girl so I would take that into consideration. It's not exactly my voice. I wouldn't write that exact palm if I were just writing my own poetry. I am trying to think about your fifteen year a little bit email and cheesy but you but you have a lot going on and so the first poem is kind of speaking to those things and these horses that she stole from the House that she loved that she had to move away from. You know all these things. So then when we're working on the finale the showrunner. Liz did feel like we needed something laid over at the end. When you're seeing MIA's are were and is he's running away and Elena is coming to the apartment looking for Izzy like she knew that she wanted something there and so she asked me. If I thought I could write another poem and I was like absolutely and the reason that I'm I let myself talk about my portion. This way is because it is one of a handful of things that I am deeply confident about like. You should be for whatever reason and it's like it doesn't mean that. I think every poem I've written is good but I'm like I probably know how to do this. I know what buttons to push Now don't have a poetry collection and having the poets that I do love and that I'm very jealous. Swear I don't WanNa make it sound easier than it is to actually put something out into the world and published a poem but this particular ask of home that kind of encapsulates. The story that we've told and using Pearl Story to tell all the stories I just I already knew what it was as soon as she asked me. I already knew it was going to be about obviously mothers and about growing up. Because that's what pearls trying to do. And that's why she's so frustrating throughout this show because she's a fucking kid and she doesn't know she does not know that her mother is right about a lot of things but she also knows her mom can't be trusted and she's not wrong about that so you know it's it's a coming of age story in a lot of ways and I moved around a lot when I was a teenager I had a lot of issues related to my mother's and so it was. It wasn't hard. It just wasn't hard for me to write this and we played around with it. You know we tweaked it. We made it longer when it needed to be longer and things like that. But I don't even know what your question was. I'm just like yeah chrome was it was always good you at my question. Absolutely talk your shit and that was a common sentiment that I was seeing asocial was about man. You really nail like if you had to encapsulated into a pros of. Here's what the purpose of his entire series here. The questions are being laid bare throughout the series. That poem nails in. It's also the only reason that some of US had to back down and say if we ever ran into Pearl. It's not on site it's literally so yes. Give her time. She needed time time. Sp look every time we would. Just be like okay. I don't like that. I WANNA fight this fictional cares job and I wanNA fight her. Y'All did so good has grocery her journey and I struggled with it too at times but But I but I do think in the end you can see you can see where she was coming from uncertain things. Should she have custody her mother absolutely not? I'm still shocked. She live to see the next day. But yes I an in a way. Her poem is is an apology. You know what I'm saying and the home what I think. One of my favorite things about it is that it's their first collaborative project together. The poem is in conversation with knees. Final piece of artwork. Niyaz art is now in conversation with the poem. So it is this like Beautiful Reconciliation of sorts between the two of them. Even as it is like all those other things at the same time. Now you see the you see the growth. You'd absolutely see the growth Ream deemed this little child. But I mean there was just kind of like a beautiful ebb and flow to episode. Six and I like the fact that you're like you know. There are certain things in my life. I'm confident about and this is one of them. Because like there's like you have. I don't know if it was deliberate or if it's just something that happens. There's a certain hesitation in the way that you presented certain things and then when the actors took your words and they brought it to life and I was like I don't know if it was on purpose but that is an amazing voice and enjoys like I'm a see you should talk. I'm like really I will buy you things if if you make this happen because I mean by herself and say listen we've got it on black so get your get your Wallet Open. What because no really I mean. I've read stuff that you did when you pace and I've read other interviews you talked about this and I'm not kidding when I said when I looked at the list of the people who were in the writer's room for lovecraft country. I stopped being angry that that book was about to come to. Tv and your name was a part of the reason why I mean I love horror. I love that book as much as I love mess. And you're right. It's family drama. So hearing like the things that motivate you to write and where you found your voice and where you're comfortable letting it sit and the way that you leverage our own vulnerability and you're you're you know and then you tell it to the fact that you know you like I'm I'm GonNa Bitch upon occasion. I mean what you need. So it's it's refreshing. It's very refreshing. You know you're in a writer's room full of women but you're only one of three black women. Were in that writing room so to hear that you actually were a voice and you felt like you could be heard and that your show runner. Liz Look to you and said I have confidence in you to be able to do this thing. And you're like well of course you go it's done. I did it neuberger. You're welcome. These are wonderful things here so yeah also is great. Yeah no I would also say that. Roe said is completely reflected in the show. I can tell that there is a open communication. There is a positive and constructive feedback within the writer's room. Because you see that on screen I can tell that. They're black people for four visibly black women that fought for things to stay on the floor. You know what I mean but you know we're white women are saying well you can see the well actually when it comes to Elena and it's perfect and I was like did y'all have to drink together you know 'cause this this is real and I know what upsets people who to reduce books one of the things about these books as it allows for particular type of Scape Ism and the only person. I know in Shaker. Ohio is a black woman who also happens to be Muslim. And yes. She's she's a whole lot. I love her to death. But she's like no. That's Shaker that Shaker. Yeah so tell room you got it right but when but like the things that you brought forward to where you said racist real like you. Very matter of factly said well talking to us. Once she was black we had to talk about race. People don't actually believe that to be true and I really feel like little fires everywhere and particularly once you get to episode sick. It's so very much a necessary. Part of the discussion about these women's lives that to ignore the fact that one of them is white and what that meant and to ignore the fact that one of them is black and what that meant but also to ignore the fact that they came from a place where both of them had families that had expectation that there was a standard that and for what people think. The black family is a nonstandard family. She comes from a two parent home. They got a whole ass house. No tenement and site so you know the slight shock on face when she was walking up to the door and realizing where mia came from and the bitterness and anger that she took home with her. She's misrepresented who she is. And she's got all these things and she came. She was more angry about the fact that she didn't find her parents living in abject poverty that she was about the fact that she had something in common with this woman and all of that was beautifully nestled in with all of the drama and the mess and the microaggressions and the fact that the other black voice in pearls ear was a man. It was Brian as we stand Brian. We stand Brian every time he came and say Yup I. I've heard that from people too and I'm like that's you know. It's not a huge role by. He's bear and he's a voice and I'm very proud of him. For the break-up seen Took a little while to get there. But he got there. Yeah no the the piddle me was actually the dinner table scene and when Elena with her usual micro aggression speak saying you guys will have a lot in common and he just gives her this look in and she was just not giving it to him he was just like like the night that he defended her even though he didn't know her personally and be like you're like chocolate lexi dead wrong for taking this girl's essay that was a consistent sticking point for him the fact that he groped her in. I feel like offscreen. It's like their black student union because even though that was a cover up for her I do believe she was doing those last it. Before it didn't turn into a cover UPS DAYTRIP for like you're gonNA use Black Blackley okay. I believe it was Brian. Come up to her. You come to these meetings whether you like it or not coming and so loved that airfare but the way that you guys used it and that he was the reason why you didn't you couldn't ignore race that it was coming out of his voice when he's like I know you know I'm a man. Am I black to you in that and it was perfect? But the moment where you realize that part of another form of rejection that you guys put in here was. Pearl patently rejecting anything that required her to take what her mother gave her as directions about how to interact with people seriously or the reason why the relationship they had with the places where they lived was what it was was partially because they were black. And this moment where you could tell that. Her mother had taught her to advocate for herself and to to stand in her own truth but the second she was in. That counselor's office and he pulled the well. You know kids who come here from Cleveland. I was like I got up and walked out of my room and when I came back and she was still just. I'm like I'm screaming. Say something at the screen in. Yeah you know yeah it was. I love that scene too hot. It came from a true story. And I I wish I knew the exact name of the article or the video but Our Research Assistant found this incredible story about A huge issue at Shaker Heights. Where Again Shakur being Shaker decided. We'RE GOING TO BUS IN KIDS FROM CLEVELAND. Because we're not racist and are we want black kids. Who Don't can't afford to live in Shaker. We want them to come to our school. Because of that is how progressive we are and of course come to find out while the kids are at the school but there are not allowed in the AP classes. The kids are at the school. But all of a sudden all of the Shaker moms the white moms are up in arms because Their their grades are bringing down the national average for Shaker. Some you know like those microaggressions which I just like to call racism but all that racism is happening at this incredible progressive school. So that's that's exactly where we pull that storyline for Pearl. And of course you know writer's room we all have those stories of white person in some kind of power telling us like you're not gonNA get into that school. You're not getting into that cost. You should really think realistically other things so I love that you know to speak to the Brian. I think I would also say curl is going. I have found a fantasy family. I would like to live in that fantasy world. Please drone say anything to make me question this family. I think Elena is the kind of mom I would want. I want my breakfast made my watch made. Sometimes I don't WanNa have to always advocate for myself. I want somebody to fucking go up to the school and custom went out for me. Landed doesn't do it the way a black mama do it. But she doesn't in her way and she goes complicates for for Pearl. So you know Perot had those blinders on and we all know people like that and I think a lot of us have been those people at different points. And so that's why she's she's having that clash with Brian. But even you know I've talked to people who've also been like Brian is trash. Did He. Dump Black Sea as soon as you know that? As soon as he learned that information which is totally fair critique and question and that's what I always say. I'm proud that he eventually got there. But we also wrote Ryan keeping in mind. He's a kid and he wants to live. Yeah and he likes lexi and he loves LEX IT. And he's having an awakening to he had always looked at Lexi's mom is a problem. I don't like Elena. I don't WanNa hear about the march on Washington. That's why I'm not coming over for dinner. And it's not until pro comes into town that he realizes lexi isn't Atlanta. Well because the way that you guys presented it and presented Lexi. I mean you can dislike because she was a brat and a particular type of you white girl it just makes you want to put a pillow on her head. I mean you just just one of those little suffocating just a little like not. Just just make shut up. But I'm sorry I'm from the south. I went to a predominantly white high school. My brother like my brother has dated Alexi frequently so watching the dynamic developed and I thought it was smart to let them see. He's like well she's my girlfriend. She legitimately is interested me. She loves me so this is her mom. But then for him to have to realize the really insidious insidious nature of all that constant talking in this constant stories. And you'll find someone who's a better fit for you then him coming from a family that has certain expectations because again. He grew up in Shaker. So He's used to shake her and shake. Her treats him like their boy the hometown hero absolutely in all the connotations of the word boy apply but yeah so it even forced him to have to kind of look at it like you know. He always approached like well. You don't understand so let me tell you and then you can get it or you're only speaking from your perspective so let me show you a different perspective and you can get it so for him to have to be confronted with his girlfriend doing something so trash and for it to be related to release race right and when he first. He's like you know because he was like I didn't know that happened. You thought you told me everything. I thought we were open. So that was also. He had to work his way through dealing with the fact that there wasn't trust and honesty in his relationship and like all smart smart smart girls when she realized she made a mistake. I'll say don should distract there. She put on him. She's like no to that the other thing I like about their confrontation as In the bedroom scene when they're breaking up you know she starts crying as soon as you think. I'm racist and the tears Khan and I'm like hang in there Brian. Yeah though we can talk for hours about the use of weaponising white tears throughout that whole entire series because you get a lot of it particularly with the with the kids and particularly with with Lexi and definitely in a lane out but yeah. I'm just all like clapping up for y'All y'all could we? Can You promise this thirty minutes and you give us an hour? So thank you time. It's it's so nice to talk with you guys about the show and I really mean back because like I said I was afraid. I wasn't sure if we were going to be able to pull it off because it's a hard. It's a hard thing to pour off in everything that I that I do. I want black women to like it and they end. What's great about black women as they will fucking tell you when he got through tation absolutely and I love those who there have been those critiques. Where like seen people like I just cannot get ask the scene because culturally. Pearl would be dead right now And I love one of the rain where she runs up and screams get in the car. And I don't want my house yet but I don't disagree with that I don't disagree with that critique but what. I think balances is via character. Nia finding like you or you know who you are her. Yes Kareem and get in the car her saying we don't talk to cops. What are you doing that reminder on the screen multiple times per loses like you know this white. Nfc land later my mom and you earn doll. I actually heard that from my mother when I was like all the seeds. So all of the necessary you right balance like it was just strictly that I can understand that but I think the balance of having me being like even in the midst of my internal mess and drama in her being wrong in her own ways. Your Black Girl Yeah. I'm so glad to talk to you guys. And we were as glad to spend some time talking with writer Shannon Houston from the little fires everywhere writing room. Stay tuned for more from my talk shit and read an Arrange it some more interviews with some more interesting people.

Elena Pauline Mia Pearl Shaker writer Carrie Washington Lexi Liz Taylor Shaker Heights Izzy Pwi Pearl US Cleveland Hbo Roe Brian Mike Batt New York Celeste
Shaker Heights - Episode 6: A Clockwork Orange

True Crime Garage

32:06 min | 6 months ago

Shaker Heights - Episode 6: A Clockwork Orange

"He makes welcome to Shaker. Heights episodes six a clockwork orange. Lisa pruitt is dead. Someone stabbed her twenty one times in the early morning hours of September Fourteenth Nineteen Ninety. She was found behind the Mansion. Where her boyfriend? Dan dreifort lived with his parents. Dance friends pointed the finger at the weird kid in school Kevin Young. And although there was no evidence linking Kevin to the crime and even though he had an alibi he quickly became the prime suspect for the detectives of the Small Town Department. They were out of their league and they knew it so they enlisted a renowned psychologist from Syracuse University. To help them get a confession from Kevin Young. No matter what I understand that in indeed. That's a very powerful alibi that the father indicates the Dan was in fact in his room and that they both heard the screams together. Yes that's that's very powerful. There is some I must say that we we had some difficulty still however with Dan subsequent behavior he after they go out to the edge of the property and and I'll go back into the home apparently satisfied that the source of the scream has left the area or whatever and that they can't find anything unusual. Apparently Dan rea exits the house to find the bicycle and then in fact without telling his parents called nine one one on his own to report what he believes to be. Now suspicious circumstances but then when the parents here the PRUITT's outside on the long you know and they're distraught in here are all these police vehicles. The crime scene being established up. Dan goes to bed falls asleep while the parents are waiting for the plain clothes. Detective to come in and interview them I found that I found that unusual in somewhat disconcerted but what we decided here was that Dick decided that well. That's not that's academic right. Because it's not Dan that we're going to be interrogating. It's it's Kevin. And whether or not he's the guy or not. We want to give the full shot to use the best psychological coercion. We can't right if in fact so that we get an admission out of him if in fact he is the killer. What is is the form talking to Kevin? Now he's gone to well. What we're trying to do is get a grand. Jury assembled where all witnesses would be subpoenaed and questioned before a grand jury including Kevin Young. What kind of immunity is involved in that None that I know of council allowed no Council no counsel he may take the Fifth Amendment. Almost certainly council would advise him to do that given that he has no immunity even willing immunity in such an interrogation right. Kevin is on a legally qualifies for adult offenders. Status is that right. That's right. Let me try to discords for a minute or two about what I believe to be. The psychological dynamics behind Kevin's peculiarities. There's no question that on the face of it Kevin's evidences self loathing self-deprecation what is sometimes called poor self image. He is in fact. I some suspicion that his own hospitalization was for an abortive suicide attempt to be the case the most recent one yes not to mojos while he indicated to the interviewer that he had nothing left to live for. I have that person with me. The officer that did the interviewing surgeon gray is here with me in my office. An excellent job by the way sergeant it was it was obviously a very productive interview. Even though we didn't get an admission there are some very revealing points that you undoubtedly felt that he was just about to tumble to to Rollover Dick and I both commented that In reading your report that first of all frequently visiting the bathroom. How many times three times within some short span of time right right all the signs of stress that something is bothering him. Yeah I mean all the physical signs in terms of I contact motion sitting back and forth in your chair and all the classic kind of interview things that you'd like to see once in a while. Were all clearly there. I mean the stress was real high on his level. What do you make of him saying that he could tell you that he had done it? And then he'd go to the hospital for a couple years but he really couldn't live with themselves. He he didn't tell you the truth. I mean I mean it's almost like is there truth other than he did it that I mean one of the things. We had been warned about ahead of time was the possibility that he had already justified. Some sort of course of action in mind and if his justification at something to do with it no. I really didn't do it or someone else did it. I mean if maybe he had totally blocked it out. We really don't know I mean. We were already prepared for the possibility that he had justified. This somehow and that he wasn't going to feel Yes this is On Jim Rights advice right right. Yeah I I. I concur a denial defense mechanism. For Kevin is high in his hierarchies of his ego protection. He is he's a fantasize he's A. His behavior is compensatory character. Who let me talk about that a bit. I think when you find such virulent self-deprecation self loathing I think you need to reach for an account doesn't doesn't stand on its own merit and the account is that you look at this. The self-loathing as compensatory behavior as denial behavior that is to say denial of the intrinsic the underlying belief that you are in fact superior that you are ideal in every way that you are a nip The opposite of someone who is unworthy you're Cream Lee worthy but that those thoughts are anxiety producing the Greeks used to call that the sin of Shoebridge. The notion that you aspired to God hood that you that you are. God causes enormous anxiety and anxieties compensated for defended against by the posture of the self deprecating. Self loathing fence. So you're very happy to talk about your being suicidal you're being unworthy. Nobody will talk to you. You're not found desirable by either men or women or what. What have you because that's your pose? That's your deception. What you don't want to talk about is the fact that your God that you control everyone that you believe you control your life etc and all the people around you you live in deception oppose the opposite of it. It seems to me that of what a perhaps in the attack we originally took. You don't minimize you. You maximize what he did his responsibility. His significance is capacity that the crime is important not minimal. He doesn't need help. He needs a pause for what he was able to accomplish his significance his importance etc is guilt feeling his guilt and there's no doubt that he in fact feels guilty in this post offense behavior of of starting a new life and I found that very significant in the statement that his profile of the killer suggest that he would move on and start a new life and then when he referred to a circumstances at college he referred to that as a new life for him right. He's in fact. He's very comfortable and whatever guilt he may have had. I think he's been able to deal with. I think that it's transparent and obvious that the guild is not sufficient to compensate or overbalanced his fears of the punishment that will accrue to will follow upon confession of that guilt. He's already fantasized circumstances of his imprisonment. So what we need to do is is. We need to arouse him around the Gilt again and that that may be difficult because now he's had ample time to scar over to see. Nothing is going to happen. That he's been successful is God like powers him again. Faced him because he is invincible? But I think that's the tact. We need to take that. He should feel guilty. He doesn't need help. He needs punishment. Does he feel that guilt. Still know as I'm saying I think he's originally it's completely it was able to compensate adequately for this because God felt guilt indeed the opposite. He would've been conflicted between feeling the importance of having done something that ordinary mortals. Don't do you normally mortals. Don't kill he understands. I think this his problems with his impulse control. He's impulsive is a great deal of difficulty with impulse control. He has to guard against this incredible power. That is within him this this power anger violence in. He asked to protect themselves from that and part of that his pose self deprecation etc the self-loathing. We need to play to what he believes to be his strengths. An inch doing we will arouse in him. His anxieties the anxieties and feeling god-like and those anxieties will trigger his guilt feelings again. We need to do what you would do. More with a a serial killer. It seems to me has in favor of the notions of power in being able to kill to recreate that sense of power significance that life taking capacity the interview took the tact of minimizing. You need help. Well you know they don't really you know you. Full offenders can mitigate this to the judge because he felt remorse etcetera etcetera. I'm saying and we know that that didn't work right. I'm saying we maximize the crime instead. Maximize the power the significance. You go back through the crime with a kind of fallacious dwelling upon the details but particularly with respect to the power the sheer marvelous power of being able to take the likes. You follow me yes I mean all almost pornographic in. I'm as you're saying this. I'm thinking I know how we could do that. I'm just not sure how to do that. Under the controlled circumstances. Here's what I was thinking. What are the we need to shape up a behavior the same way you would try to shape up a behavior in laboratory match. I'm going to go through that scenario. This this behavioral shaping. That's very dramatic works very. Well look you take a mouse. A rat a laboratory rat and you want him to. Let's say twirl around. Three times clock lies in a sort of ballet like Pirouette. So what you do to control is. You're in control over the reinforcements. You don't need to punish but you can withhold the reinforcements so what you do. Is You wait for the animal to turn its head and look to the right and then you give it a little bit of food then you wait and it turns its head to the right and you don't give him food now again for returning turning right you wait until he moves to shoulder to the right along with the head and then you give him a piece of food and then you keep waiting for more and more exaggerations of this form of behavior until it's a quarter of a turn and then it's a half a turn then it's a filter. It takes an enormous amount of patients. Because you have to wait for this behavior to in classical conditioning rather than operate conditioning. You of course make the response. Appear that you want. Because you're dealing with some reflexive response that you're just going to change to a different stimulus. But in opposite conditioning you have to wait for the behavior to occur now. Of course you can make the behavior more likely to occur because you've got him in a situation where the animals hungry right at an inactive. You can't condition an animal that's asleep college. Classes in doctorate courses incite curriculum says. I've always done this. It's it's a nice demonstration. The class gets together and decides that they're going to have the professor stand on his left leg. Deliver the whole that Sean has left lied so what they do. Is they wait for him to shift his way to the left and then all of them just nod and smile and they look very interested in what he's just said and that's powerful reward for the professor and then they wait until it happens again and then they all nod and smile inbetween this they would? They would hold the reinforcement. They'll board inattentive to maximize the reward in. It's very dramatic it works. It works every time the professor by the end of class is hopping around on one leg doesn't realize why just seems to like to be on the On that one leg to talk on that one leg now. Here's I forgive all the Dodo sort of thing. We need to operate condition Kevin Clockwork Orange on Kevin. If if you've seen that film and the way we do that is when he takes the fifth and he almost certainly will take the fifth. You turn your back on him. You ignore him you in fact even better would would be to make aside to somebody else talk to someone else. So that Kevin understands it there is reward out there to be given because Kevin Lobs attention. God's expect people to worship them it's their do but if you ignore them constant like that. God's don't like to be ignored they like attention and notice that Kevin in when you interviewed him he. Wow you know he was ready to go for the whole night. I mean you were. You were tiring more than he was right absolutely and ready to go forever. I I. He loved it. Oh He loved it you know. He wanted the polygraph. He wanted everything. Oh Jeez you know. Let's go I love it you know. Just just keep giving me attention worship me. Worshiped worship me. If he wanted anything if he asked for a drink of water you turn and give him his fullest attention. Oh Yes yes Kevin. You shower him with attention. Affection reward now the next time he asked for water. We don't now you don't need it again because now you need something more. You need a demonstration of his cooperative nece etc. I think you get the picture. We we just need to manipulate the reinforcements. And you have to do it. In a very conscious way trying to get him to talk and then it soon as he starts to talk if he starts to talk them we need to shake what he says. We want him to shape. Talk about we want to reinforce talk about guilt personal responsibility. We withhold the reinforcement for intellectuals. Ation the mechanisms of denial. Third Person. Stuff and obfuscation. You know distractions trying to get what comes closer and closer to a personal confession or a revelation of what he's done. I don't think he would gladly take the fifth and I think what you need to do is avoid biting him get reinforcements for taking the fifth and that would be for example just continuing on one question after another. So he he he gets a chance to say on advice of counsel. I refuse to answer that question. On the grounds it may tend to incriminate and he loves that. What a performance. Wow you know One after the other and then he gets very dramatic because of its repetition under the stress and conditions. Will it be possible for this attorney to condition him enough to just stick to that Fifth Amendment? I know I don't think so. He's going to want that attention I think I think that he prefers not to do that. He would prefer to try to charm. Manipulate be the center of attention centerstage in this testimony for the grand jury and there's nothing nothing that the attorney can tell him that would convince him of that. You've seen this. I mean people absolutely self destructive in such situations because their personality will not allow them to be silent. So I think the Kevin's position. I think he would like that. I think when he needs is well without confessing he needs to have an. That's what I think he did in the interview. He came so close to confessing. What had happened in the third person for? But that's expiation that's expiation of sin that's absolution of sin you gave him. You absolve him of sand. Because you didn't stand up and say how disgusting how absolutely unadulterated disgusting. You can sit here and talk like that about murdering another human being an expect me to sit here and say well Kevin you know I want. I want you to be able to live with this. You've got to bullshit. He went away from this interview. Saying wow it's wonderful. It's really not that big a deal as I mean. Here's another guy that was. Hey He didn't get angry he he didn't get upset and Kevin told us that he wanted somebody to get upset. He says through the interview. He says you'RE GONNA YOU'RE GONNA have to pound on them. You have to keep after him over and over and over again. What he was saying was hate. I did an important thing and you tell him. It wasn't important. It makes sense. That's not a criticism. The way that you went about your inter. No no no no no and when I looked at it I said to Murray that you did every textbook thing. The Quantico ever thought of doing and I was very impressed with what you did. No had it worked. We would have done the perfect thing. It didn't work so indeed. You have to go that way. I you can't go from the way. I'm suggesting backwards. You can't go from where I'm suggesting to nurture him. No way I mean after you do this after you maximize the crime you. You can't minimize it. You're called out but you can go from minimizing To maximize he gave us the opening of it needed to be done over and over which gave us the format to change however once attorney stepped in it was minimize it. Don't talk to his client. We we kind of got stuck on that. The other thing is that I think that one needs to see behind wanting to see. I'm starting out from the presumption that this suicidal self effacing self deprecating self loathing needs an account. You can't just say Oh. Oh that's true and accepted as if it were the basis. It's not the basis it. It is in fact. It needs an explanation. I presume I'm not seeing this kid. But I presume he's he's not deformed he's not a monster no no he's just another ordinary kid Diamonds are forever but many marriages are not and selling. Your jewelry can be a great way to reinvest in yourself and your future. 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Suddenly some girl comes up to him after class talks to him. I mean he doesn't present the image of this loathing where nobody wants to talk them. Nobody likes him at Satra. He wants to have shocked value in all his writings. All his Baloney is for its shock value. It's designed to say well. Listen I want your attention on importance. I want to have an effect on you. And that's what we use as reinforcement for manipulation. So my explanation. Is that when I see something as Roland as as the self loathing I need to reach for an explanation and the most typical explanation for that is it's compensatory behavior. Anything that showy and a facade like that appearing show in that form usually has an explanation compensation. It's it's the guy that's the Homo Bashar. The Homosexual Bashar. The Super Masculine Guy who's anxieties are because he believes himself not to be masculine. So it's showing right. It's it's a demonstration more for an audience than for anything else. We must not we not give him. The applause must not be the I instead. He wants us to be. We've got to reach underneath for the secret places that he hides and shut the trick in interrogation. It seems to me whatever he wants to talk about. We don't want to talk about whatever He. Volunteers is not what we want to be. We want to be where the secret places. The last thing he wants to say are those things. Is that plan the issue of him wanting to control or feeling in control? Oh there's there's no question about that too. Yes he's he's very manipulative very controlling. But in addition control is important for this kid because as I say and I think this is intrinsic. He's got impulse disorder. He's impulsive and I believe that he says that he's scared of the capacities. He knows are in him when he loses control. You can just flip out and I think that's one of the reasons that makes him a very good suspect because my impression of this crime scene was that it was an impulse. Act Okay Have you talked to Jim again since before? You should talk to Jim in. Maybe run some of this by him. See what all the inputs you can get would be useful. Have you talked to him yet? To Jim Right Yeah No. We haven't we haven't talked since the interview but we haven't had can't believe the woken up at three o'clock in the morning. I I just can't believe it. Well Gee giving us his home phone number. That's why you see what he said. You I. I think you're tired. I think you ought to go to bed. Let me throw one other thing into this group of kids that were involved with him that we keep in contact with regularly in fact. Kevin has been in a couple of parties over the last couple of weekends. Kevin always somehow brings up the issue of Lisa. I mean it's always brought up by cabin. In one instance. He made some statements to the effect of. It's too bad. The police never had any sort of suspect or any leads. Anybody that they could look at for this. Is there any way we can play into that or does that mean anything to us? The General Response Kids. Don't even WanNa talk about it. They say yeah yeah. Yeah and leave him. Which is the other thing is that I think I think you need to. We need to look this in in the salacious pornographic interests that are that are being served. Kevin has to be able to bring it up able to recreate a moment of real power real significance real unusual s at the same time he continues to to get this acceptance. Let me let me tell you. An anecdote that That amaze me may raise your intuition about how? I'm trying to explain this. We've all had the experience of having a very vivid active dream the kind of dream. That's very strong very vivid waking up and think to yourself. Wow what a dream that was. And then as you try to hold onto the details of that dream it gradually slips between your fingers and it just fades as you the harder you try to look at the content of the dream the more it fades and yet it was vivid in a very real and very active. And you sense that. By contrast to those instances where you wake up and it's a it's in a vivid dream in any turn to the significant other in your life your partner somebody or you you go to work and you say my Lord. I had this dream last night. You wouldn't believe this dream I had and you're able to relate all those details in that dream one from the other now one account of that might be as follows that the content of the dream that you cannot remember his innings -iety producing and so you need not. You don't want to think about it. You want to put it behind you. So it slips through your fingers because it's too anxiety provoking the content of the dream that you have this urgency to tell somebody about his is content that you need to test against somebody else so for example and typically the person you want to tell it to is the person that significant in the dream so you turn to your partner and you say. I've had this incredible dream about and it was you and me and we were data and you go on with this in suppose that the content just oppose the content. That dream is symbolically reflective of you killing this other person so you go through this in gory. Detail but but symbolically. It doesn't sound obvious that you're killing the person. Well you see. I dreamt that you on this cliff in and then we were floating down and there were these rocks down below in here. You're describing to the person how you're going to kill him. You know like well you're you're GONNA be splattered all over those rocks and then what? What does the person say to you? They they don't say as I said you know stand up and say you son of a bitch. There's no way in the world I'm going to sit here and have somebody dreams like that. Have any respect for such a person or even any affection. No now now. What did they say? Oh you have such a wonderful imagination. A wow. Isn't that wonderful. That's that's really interesting isn't it? I mean here's a person just said to them. I'M GONNA kill you saying. Isn't that wonderful? You're just a marvelous person. And so you have expedited the Senate. These desires to hurt the other person by the other person accepting them in continuing to say you're a nice person. You're okay well. Every time Kevin Raises. This doesn't have people get up. Shun Him. He successfully establishes the point. That what he did was was not so bad after all. What would happen if they did? What do you think is reaction would be if they shunned him and got real upset about it? Well I think you'd have to try to convince them. I think that that you know he was not the person that he was not worthy of their loathing while at the same time believing that he was indeed might become suicidal at that point so that he could further demonstrate that he was repentant that he really didn't enjoy having killed her dick asks he wrote me. Why are writing me a note? Just jump in here whether or not. He would admit to another kid. Under any circumstances I think he I think he definitely could For shock value for its convincing the person that significant I think that your account of his doing this at parties is almost tantamount to that it is of the same character skirting the confession that he did with you. Doing the staying in the third person will the kids talk about all the angry things they'd like to tell Kevin but they're kind of afraid to tell him because they don't know how he's GonNa React. Oh I'd advise them just the opposite. Even when police detectives tried to clockwork Orange Kevin. He never gave them a confession. And here is where the tragedy is compounded the prosecutor assigned to the case. Cuyahoga county ends up being Carmen Marino. Nobody knows it back then but eventually Marino would get in a lot of trouble for misconduct and other murder cases he did things like withhold evidence from defense attorneys and allowing witnesses to lie on the stand what Marino did wrong was go to the psychiatric unit where Kevin Young was treated for stress after being interrogated by police and got a female patient to say Kevin had confessed to her in the hospital off that testimony from a mental patient Marino. Got An indictment against Kevin for Lisa's murder. The case went to trial on June. Twenty eight nineteen ninety three. It was one of the first trials to be broadcast on court. Tv trial of his peers acquitted Kevin Young on July twenty. First in the eyes of the Law Kevin Young was not guilty of the murder of Lisa. Pruitt but in Shaker Heights. That wasn't good enough. They had been told by their trusted. Police detectives that this was the guy who did it and to this day the majority of people who lived through the ordeal still believe. Kevin got away with murder. Life was not kind to Kevin Young because of the publicity of the case. He found it difficult to find a date. All they had to do was google his name. He moved back in with his parents and painted houses around town eventually. He got his own efficiency apartment on the east side. He died at the age of forty four and February of two thousand seventeen. He maintained his innocence to that day. Buried in the police files obtained from Shaker. Heights are few letters. The Dan dreifort wrote to Lisa Pruitt when he was in psychiatric care. Dan writes quote. I tried to kill myself. I need Atta here. This place is fucked me up after I get out. Give me some time to return to normal. I don't want you or I to make any poor decisions because of this place and another note. Dan Warns Lisa quote. Someday I'll go too far and I'll do something very bad and you'll yell at me and be serious and I won't be able to handle it but you can't let me get away with murder. I look at you and I see what I've done to you. I'm a bad influence on people. Chris is another example of this and believe it or not. I think I've Made Kevin. Worse than he already was later. He goes on to write quote. I WanNa poke your eyes out with my favorite pocket. Knife Shaker Heights was directed and produced by true crime garage and co-produced by the philosophy of crime narration written by James Renner.

Kevin Kevin Young Lisa pruitt Dan Dan dreifort Shaker self-loathing Dan rea Syracuse University attorney Kevin Clockwork Orange Nineteen Ninety Dick partner Kevin Raises officer murder Cuyahoga county Small Town Department