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THE SCANDAL MATCH
Welcome to season two of what really happened. My name is Andrew Jackson on behalf of my hardworking producers, Dwayne Johnson, Danny Garcia, Brian Goertz, and seven bucks productions incredibly dedicated co workers, a cadence. Thirteen. I want to thank you for making us the number one apple podcast and season one. We've been researching interviewing recording a lot for the last year to bring you this new season. We're going from six to sixteen original episodes from sonic warfare and Cuba to historic box office flops to balloon boy, and it all starts right now with this scandal match. It's just about six PM in the desert no clouds, low humidity about eighty two degrees. There's excitement in the air as fourteen thousand people gather to watch in less than twenty four hours in a sport, not always giving the attention it's about to receive two titans will stare each other down and battle in a semi-finals match. Only one can survive. These are the rules and rules in this story will be manipulated questioned and put to the test. There are whispers about something fishy, going on more specifically a ploy. See the interesting thing about these two titans about to go head to head is that they are siblings. They are sisters, and in fact, also best friends and many believe that their father is a con artist allowed obnoxious off filtered con artist, a con artist in that. Sometimes he seems to str-. Stretch the truth like the time, he claimed to own a piece of space over India or a con artist because when the sisters have faced off in the past, some believe he tells them who must win he likens her battles against one another to the Roman empire. Saying after one match, it felt like it's having to people in the arena like the Roman empire used to do one had a right to die, and one had a right to live and the one that one had the right to live. There is no denying the success as one of the most trusted and popular publications said at the time, the scenario this father and less press seeking. Mother has put together is quote as impossible as one set of parents raising Picasso and Monet after all, we're not just talking about two titans but to worldwide celebrities with all the chart talent the day before this battle. One of these sisters defeats a lesser known opponent named Elena as is. Mary Elena talks to the press after her loss, but not so customary is that she mentions the sisters father. Most would agree that the greatest sinon sport is fixing match determining the outcome ahead of time. It breaks the very foundation, the whole point of sports, much less professional sports. And with that in mind, reporter asked Selena, any predictions on tomorrow's match between the sisters, Elena response. I mean, I don't know what the father thinks about it. I think he'll decide who's going to win tomorrow. What we're whispers has now become a declaration broadcast to the world, dad will decide. And so everyone is put on alert. Willie tell his two kids nineteen and twenty years old who should win anticipation throughout the following day builds the term must see. TV is certainly overused, but this truly is two of the best facing off his awesome. It's exhilarating. It's a unique pocket of time in which everyone knows they are watching history and sisters. This is special in the sold-out stadium. Thousands of fans reached their seats earlier than usual, waiting for hours in this hot weather broadcasters prepare more thoroughly than usual, knowing there will be millions watching around the world. One of the titans then takes the court. The crowd. Cheers. She begins practicing, preparing father comes up to her and whispers something. And then before the next player, her sister comes out something strange, surreal and astonishing happens. An official from the tournament takes a microphone and announces the other competitor. The other sister has pulled out. She won't be playing. You can hear a coin, drop the energy zapped crushed you think of the synonym fans in despair. Commentators not sure what to say. And flashbacks of Elena said, this was larger than the sisters to pull out of a match because of an injury is one thing, but to pull out four minutes prior that doesn't happen quickly. And without more information, there's a consensus that this injury is implausible. The injured sister is as it turns out seen during this time running around not all that injured when pressed about if she is really injured, her denial isn't particularly strong. It was a conspiracy fans and commentators both start to believe it's fixed. Just like some other tennis matches in years past were fixed. Just like the battle of the sexes in one thousand nine hundred seventy three. And so the fans. Well, they make it clear viciously clear exactly two days after the incident, what they feel the same publication that said, the sisters parents had raised a Picasso antimony. Now paint a very different picture saying this is quote one of the ugliest scenes in the sports history. The sisters say they will never return to the scene. They can't and what was meant to be a pocket of time that people would forever. Remember sadly becomes a nightmare that everyone wants to forget, but can't as one of the sisters would later say, I didn't know what to do. Nothing like this had ever happened to me. Nobody looked at what actually happened. And thus the question remains on that. Hot day in the desert. What really happened. The two sisters in the desert on that hot day in nineteen ninety nine or Venus Williams and Serena Williams Venus, twenty years old and Serena nineteen. And according to many, it was Venus who pulled out of the match only four minutes before because of an injury or an order from her father Richard Williams. As of this recording, Serena has won a record twenty three grand slams she's widely considered the best female tennis player ever. Billie Jean King has said, so Roger Federer has said she is the best tennis player period. While many have an opinion on what just happened this year at the US open and thoughts around Serena's catsuit. I don't think you can understand either unless you take a trip back almost twenty years ago, Serena's ranked ninth in the world and her sister who's considered better at this early stage in their careers is ranked third in the world. The location of where the Williams sisters were set to play in that semifinals match is Indian Wells, California in the wealthy area of the Coachella valley. The local Palm Springs paper said Indian Wells is home to an inordinately, high percentage of our nation's most well off retirees. Indian Wells is akin to a private club when President Eisenhower, I vacationed here, he loved it so much. He made Indian Wells. His winter home President Clinton has played golf here once in the nineties with other presidents, George H W Bush and Gerald Ford. If you're into luxury hotels, spas and plenty of golf and tennis, you'll like Indian Wells, two hours away from Indian Wells is the city of compen- California, which is just south of downtown Los Angeles. Compton is where Richard Williams and Oracene price decided as the location for where they'd raise Venus. And Serena Compton is the opposite of Indian Wells. While presidents were playing golf, if you look headlines from the LA times in the late eighties and early nineties, you'll find endless articles about gang violence, civil unrest, and how when looking at the FBI's annual report of crime statistics Compton was often ranked as one of the most dangerous cities in the country. The Williams sisters father, Richard Williams apparently knew the danger and shows to move the family to Compton from Louisiana. According to Richard, he could have afforded having the girls grow up elsewhere. But quote, there was no place in the world that was rougher than competent. The ghetto will make you rough. It will make you tough. It will make you strong. And so that's why I went to Compton with them. Richard is a character worthy of his own podcast episode or podcast series. I don't know. I'd be open anything and how he came to decide that his daughter should play. Tennis is something you couldn't make up. It was the late nineteen seventies Richard was watching a match in which an announcer mentioned that the women's nineteen seventy eight French Open champion had made forty thousand dollars in one week of tournament play. This was more than Richard had made all year. And so the next morning he went on a search to confirm. This was true that female tennis players could make that much money turns out it was true. And so as the story goes, he returned home and said to his wife, renewed to make two kids and make them into tennis superstars. The only issue or one issue was that Richard knew nothing about the game. So he bought some books, watch tennis as much as he could and became a student and soon an expert of sorts. He starts taking the whole family to the local tennis courts. He begins training not just Venus and Serena, but there are other sisters as well. And this isn't like those gorgeous hardcourts at the IMG academy on the waters of western Florida or the beachfront clay courts at the variety of tennis academies in Spain. These are tennis courts in Compton where tennis isn't something. Many people play. In fact, at the time, the tennis courts are mostly in area to dump leftover syringes, glass bottles and other trash. But Richard doesn't care, and he takes a unique approach and by most accounts, an obsessive approach, not a bad way, but he treats his daughters v. Innocence Serena as the generational players they'd become Richard, has them on a routine that could match many professionals? Yes. The greats normally begin tennis addin early age, but not like this. Well, many young players were practising their shots lobs or serves. Richard also has his daughter's just outside of the court. Serena recalls her dad telling them that pitchers had the best arms. So the girls with throw baseballs and footballs to simulate a four, throwing motion and build muscle. Sometimes he'd bring upwards of a hundred old tennis rackets and the girls would be chucking the rackets one after another. As far as they could. He also told the girls that boxers had the best feet. So when they weren't moving their feet like he wanted them to in practice, he had a professional boxer come to a nearby sandpit and FOX with the girls. Richard also wanted to put his daughters in. Every conceivable scenario at one point telling an opponent to cheat throughout the match. So that Venus had to sort out how to react. Richard, went on trade, a seventy eight page manifesto as to how his daughters would attain greatness. But he also ensures the tennis didn't get in the way of schoolwork. All of his daughters learned ballet, jazz, taekwondo different languages. He always wants to make them tougher and smarter. So Richard Williams pulls off two types of training, physical and mental. He prepares his daughters on both fronts. Richard forced his daughters to believe tennis fame was inevitable. They were quite literally born to do this for years every single day. He had them write down what it would look like. When they took center stage, he had them believe it was a foregone conclusion. And if you listen close enough to old videos, you hear him telling the four and five year old daughters to imagine. Listen to this very quick clip of him, telling Serena to picture hitting a US open winner. The youth open. Right? Because there was most view. When a prominent coach from Florida is in California and sees Venus play. He looks at Richard and says, you may have the next Michael Jordan of tennis. No Richard responds. I have the next two referring to Venus and Serena. Richard Williams least for me is the very definition of a visionary. He shoots endless videos of his daughters playing again at just four and five years old sending these videos to the elite tennis academies in Florida and elsewhere. You can go on YouTube and watch him. Filming the girls playing explained to whomever's listening on the other side, why his kids are the best you can see. The very good hopefully. They gotta show about five or ten more balls by you. And great sir. Richard May have been the only person in the world that knew he was raising two of the greatest tennis players ever. But before long, the world started a catch on and just as they did cheating, accusations began to surface. Maybe this was all too good to be true. So if you've listened to prior episodes on a big fan of taking care of my mind or at least trying to another words mental health. And what I've kind of found interesting is people spend so much time at the gym and oftentimes quite a bit of money, which is great. But then for some reason, taking care of your mind is seen still as sort of taboo and why better place remind his in, I think better place your body is in better. Your relationships are everything. And one thing that's really helped me and I've tried a lot of different things as this app called calm, and I'm genuinely excited that reef partnered with them. They're the number one app for sleep, meditation and relaxation. They are actually named apples twenty seventeen app of the year. Wow. If you had to come dot com back slash w. r. h. for what really happened, you'll get twenty five percent off a calm premium subscription which include. Lose hundreds of hours of guided meditations on issues like anxiety, stress, and focus, including a brand new meditation each day called the daily calm. You can do it for only a few minutes for ten minutes. I'd say just try it and see where it takes you. It also helps me go to sleep. They have and don't laugh because it really is effective for people like me who have racing minds, but they have over a hundred soothing tales, essentially bedtime stories that have helped me fall asleep. A lot of times when I'm researching a writing episodes also play different background noises they have it is really effective. So for a limited time, what really happened listeners can get twenty five percent off a calm premium subscription ADT com dot com. Backslash w. r. h. it includes unlimited access to all of coms amazing content get started today at com dot com. Backslash w. r. h. that c. a. l. m. dot CO m. Slash w. r. h. w. r. h. obviously for what really happened. Richard travels around Los Angeles, trying to convince country clubs to give him and the kids at discounted membership, or at the very least free tennis balls to play with. It's important to remember how Richard was teaching a sport. He was learning at the same time. Now, where did Richard get this determination? He grew up in Shreveport, Louisiana, Richard himself for called one time when quote six or seven guys held me down and they took a nail that goes on across tie and nailed it right into my leg because I wouldn't call them Mr. an, I didn't think it was fair for me to call no one Mr. when they would call me boy or the n. word and we're always trying to kill me. Richard prevailed made a lot of Louisiana and also proved too many doubters that his daughters had the goods to play tennis, a renowned coach out of Florida. Richard Macy saw the Williams sisters believed in their potential and helped move the family to Florida. Perhaps the mecca for youth tennis, but as the sisters got better and more attention, Macy was dropped. Many have accused Richard of forgetting somebody that helped get his family to Florida, get Richard, a job in Florida and help the Williams sisters take the next step in their game. Leaving me see behind didn't help Richard with tennis establishment. And then there was his antics which seemed to make things a lot worse. He'd hold signs up during matches, encouraging his daughters and according to opponents would become an unfair distraction. Many said he was unable to control himself always. Saying something to get more attention Australian player, Pat Cash said that Richard had a quote unhealthy influence over their careers and use dubious tactics while they were playing cash said that Richard had held up signs during Venus's Wimbledon final against Lindsay Davenport in two thousand. It put the opponent off. It's blatant advertising and it was cheating. I cannot believe they got away with this stuff. Cash said Charlie, bricked a son. Centennial writer added in an ESPN documentary that Richard had a quote compulsive need to be in the spotlight at a time when he needs to step back and get out of the way. Others have said Richard wasn't just being loud to be loud, said Kevin Davis, family agent and legal advisor. In an interview with Sports Illustrated quote, there is a method to his madness. Everything he says is very well thought out and intends a certain result, ninety nine times out of a hundred. He gets that result don't ever underestimate Richard in that same sl article. Richard said, you have to have major media. I love to have the media bash me, you know why you do something good and save someone's life. No one cares. You wanna be famous, get some bad news. He added most people don't know nothing about me because when I'm talking, I always talk like I'm stupid. I prefer people to think I'm stupid. So at this point I news time to get in touch with somebody who was actually there at Indian Wells on that day among others. I reached out to Selena Roberts. She's covered tennis for nearly thirty years and has written for the New York Times and Sports Illustrated before getting to what happened retort to bit about Richard and how his actions in the limelight had mixed results at is as much as Richard kind of gets credit for being a bit of the. This, this circus master in some ways by you're saying things and also distracting fresher from them. I think part of that was the plan to I'm gonna, say something outrageous and crazy, and it'll take the pressure off them because it will put the focus on me now ensure that that worked out well, sometimes they had to answer, you know, for some of the things that he said, but it'd be grossly unfair to say all of this and not mentioned what journalists and others routinely say in interviews or books that Richard is genius, and he loves his kids said Jimmy Roberts of NBC sports quote, one of the most eccentric people I've ever met. But I also think he's one of the most committed parents that you can ever imagine. Even Richard Macy would go on to say, quote, Richard, and I had ups and downs over a lot of things, but he's always been incredible father to those two girls. If he wanted more money, he could have had them playing more. But I can remember fifty times when he called off practice because Venus's grades were down, they'd be in. The office studying French Serena Williams. Looking back on it jokingly said in a twenty thirteen documentary Venus, verse Serena that our father told her to be number one in the world. Adding quote I was brainwashed. Although she laughs while saying it looking back on all of this Richards approach doesn't feel that far off from brainwashing. And so could it be that he told Venus to drop out at Indian Wells to let Serena win, and if so, why? Well, so to take a step back, remember that at the time Venus is better than Serena and has been since they started playing tennis Venus's tall quick and graceful while takes most players several steps to get from one side of the court to the other. It seems more of like a hop for Venus the to play around the world, but it is this one particular tournament Indian Wells that is far. More personal and far more meaningful for Serena. So I can account for three reasons. One Serena won her first professional singles match near Indian Wells at Lacoste, even returning about a year later to take a picture of herself on the court. It has that sentimental value like the location of your first kiss. Second, Indian Wells is also where Serena at seventeen years old beat Steffi. Graf one of the best players of all time in an exhilarating. Three sets afterwards, Serena, said, quote, this is the biggest tournament I've ever won. I know that I can win the big ones now and three. If you're an American professional basketball baseball or football player, there's no question the top league you plan is in America. It's where you play nearly all of your games. Maybe outside of exhibition matches a special overseas game or the Olympics. But in tennis, you play all over the world. The top tournaments are in New York, Australia, Paris in England. And since Serena Williams grew up only two hours from Indian Wells. This is really a local tournament for her family friends. Old neighbors can come and see her. It's as much of a home game as she can get. And so between this location and her history of success in the area, Serena would say with great sincerity, I lived for Indian Wells. Now on top of all of this, Indian Wells is considered unimportant tournament in the women's tennis world. It's a tier below the four major tournaments, and it's classified as premier mandatory tournament. It holds particular significance and player rankings not to mention prize money. What has been well documented is that the Williams sisters hate playing each other so much so that outside of the crucial tennis tournaments, the Williams sisters tried to avoid playing in the same tournaments so that they can almost completely avoid playing each other. Serena has said in my research, hundreds of times when Venus loses it feels. Like she's losing also and it all stems from not just being sisters, but really lifelong best friends. Serena has said, what didn't I do to copy Venus when I was young, her favorite color was my favorite color. Her favorite animal was my favorite animal. The two shared a bedroom growing up in Compton and up until only a few years ago also shared a home in Florida, but because they are so good when they are in the same tournaments, they usually advanced to the point where they end up being the one that takes out the other. And this isn't like other professional athletes who have siblings who they play against. There are no teams here. This is one on one magic free Saul Tiger Woods up against a brother of his this personal and in a way that makes the tension feel kind of unfortunate, not exhilarating. And for Serena, there is one thing she really despises if her love for her sister Venus is on. On one side of the spectrum, her hatred for losing tennis matches is on the other said, former New York Times writer, Selina Roberts, I had at least gotten to know Serena a bit as a tennis player and is sort of mindset is at Serena, hate losing more than anybody. I've ever poverty like a tested, a spoke with former professional player. James Blake, who at one point was the fourth ranked men's tennis player in the world may be earthly. I've gotten to me so my idols, Michael Jordan's idol growing up, and I never met anyone more competitive than him and I've never met anyone more competitive than Serena. Those two are one in the same in my book with how they have the lettuces them, but they also have that drive and that absolute killer instinct that never goes away their father. Richard Williams adds to this Serena eight Leuven if anything bothering is to lose with all this. In mind. We arrived back at Indian Wells a premier tournament and in two thousand one, the semifinal match in which the sisters were set to play one another. It was Thursday and Serena's warming up fans and commentators await, but Venus still hasn't come out. And then it happens four minutes before those fourteen thousand people are about to witness history. The announcer take centre court. The semifinals match is not happening Venus's injured. And so as a result, Serena automatically moves onto the finals to be played. The following night. Serena will go up against Belgian Kim Clijsters. As I mentioned earlier, nobody can believe Venus isn't playing Elena the player who suggested this would happen only two days prior now on route home. After losing is probably rolling her eyes told you. Officials at Indian Wells, say dropping out four minutes before a match shows, a lack of common courtesy after all fence of traveled from all over the state, likely the world to this desert that is hard to get to. They've bought tickets, sat and waited in the heat only to be told. There's nothing to watch people now believe that Elena was right, and it has more to do a lot more to do than simply Venus, not playing. I is the Williams sisters denials to any questions of their father telling Venus, not to play. I call this part one pounding the table in anger the day after Venus, drops out the LA times reports on her walking into the press conference. Afterwards, quote Venus, walked in head held high smiling defiantly. She wore long purple pants. She didn't limp another chapter in the Williams family circus was taking place. Venus was Teflon in the press. The writer continues, if these situations are truly just happenstance, if Venus's knee truly did just get sore and time for her match with Serena, if all of this is just the product of a bunch of jealous competitors on the women's tour and a bunch of dopes with overactive curiosity glands, then why don't the Williams's set the record straight when they are asked about the rumor and innuendo that constantly swirl around them, they respond with smirks in half-hearted denials. They deny, but with less than normal conviction, even anger, one would expect in the face of such serious issues, how about pounding on the table and saying it ain't so how about some tears, some anger. Well, I can't help but say a strong conviction when denying something, whether it's pounding your fists on the table or wagging your finger at the press, doesn't really mean much how many public figures, whether it's politician. Denying ethics violations or athletes lying about steroid use, have reheard strongly deny wrongdoing only for to turn out. They were unfortunately lying. But I do understand what the columnist is saying, why the smiles when denying the accusation, maybe you don't need to yell but wouldn't such an allegation and allegation of the greatest crime one can make in sports, make you upset. What I've been surprised by in my research is that Venus Williams by most accounts is shy, very shy when you're in the public eye from pretty much sixteen years old onwards and able to smile while giving autographs talk to the press and perform well in commercial, shoots shy may be hard to believe, but as journalists, Robin Roberts wants put it. Venus is painfully shy and so- denials from painfully shy person oftentimes comes across a certain way. I found this quote, which I kind of like from well known writer in. Rector, Joe Stravinsky talking about himself. Joe said, I'm extremely shying, quiet, almost painfully shy. People misinterpret that as being above it all or not interested. And so I think when somebody is one of the best athletes in the world and is shy, it can come across as ego. On top of this Venus didn't always attend tournaments, which was different. Ben Rothenberg who writes about tennis for the New York Times and hosts, the NCR tennis podcast added the following Venus withdrew from a lot of tournaments than she was a player who is highly talked about and one of the most, she and her sister and being especially because me it was the higher ranked and consider better player for the early parts of their career. She was a bit of an mud. She would frequently go AWOL from tour, and you know, in her father sort of intentionally kept. And pretty opaque in terms of what her injury situation was or whatever else is happening her career, they were always, he was always trying to stoke whispers that they were gonna retire soon. They didn't need tennis. They would only be in the sport temporarily, which turned out to be incredibly wrong because they're both still here in twenty eighteen. But yeah, but I think there definitely was a sense that they Venus maybe more than strain. And she did have a couple real injury concerns during those years. But there was a sense that they were both relatively amoeba on, you know, being able to stick to the schedule of tour and show up at every turn that the Torah hope they would. They were not always as they didn't have perfect attendance records. Let's put it that way. This led to publications like Sports Illustrated saying things like no important black tennis player, not elsia. Gibson Arthur Ashe Zina Garrison, or Mel Washington ever carried himself or herself with the casual sense of entitle. Oment that envelops Venus and Serena, but is it entitlement? I don't know. The Williams sisters clearly came from a different background than many in tennis and had a father that found himself at the center of attention. They had a different approach to doing things, and all of this talk about Richard Williams to realize I was coming up painfully short in understanding more about the Williams sisters mother. And as it turns out the unsung hero ladies and gentlemen, I introduce you to the Williams sisters mob or seen price it is or seemed who train mostly with Serena while they were kids as Richard stuck with Venus. Apparently Richard couldn't handle Serena and would say she crazy or seen has said she made Serena believe in herself and believe that she could get any ball. Serena has gone on to say that my dad was the body. My mom the spine. Neither in terms of growing up playing tennis could exist without the other. The teamwork was unbelievable or seen had one core belief that she instilled in both children, which was to always face anger or hostility with a calm demeanor, especially off the court says or seen. It's like the bible says, if someone is talking bad about you be happy or scenes approach and what her daughters learned from her explains so much. It explains all of the misunderstandings when it comes to people not getting why the Williams sisters denials are in brusque or angry or loud. It turns out it's it's not that complicated. They just weren't raised that way. What is a bit more complicated? At least at first, is this tight rope of one Serena and her sister. Are supposed to show anger, anger in press conferences. Great. Yes, show us you care anger during a match, not so much, and maybe that's what you sign up for when playing professional tennis or professional sports. But regardless at least the LA times writer is saying he wants Venus to be pounding on the table or show some tears or respond in anger. But this request for anger is restricted because people most definitely don't want that anger or passion on the court in two thousand nine Serena Williams was playing in the US open semi-finals once again against Kim Clijsters. Cloisters was up and a few points away from the win. Serena was hitting her second serve of the point. So she had to get the ball in. But when serving she gets called for a foot-fault meaning aligns judge, said Serena stepped on. The line while serving and thus loses the point players, tennis journalists, all agree. It's a rare call to make an entirely unheard of to call at the end of a match on top of this. It also just didn't look like a foot fault. So cloisters wins the point and it gives Klay sisters, two match points to chances to win and move onto the US open finals. Serena can't believe the call and walks over to the judge and yells, although hard to fully confirm. She says a few things including some version of, I'm going to shove this fucking ball down your fucking throat. The lines judge makes icon tact with the head referee, and they decide Serena as the rules indicate, will lose the point. And thus the match Serena can't believe it much less. The accusation. In my research, I kept inadvertently finding myself seeing articles about this match because it was just like Indian Wells, Serena verse Kim Clijsters. So searches of the two of them playing each other, oftentimes lands you at Indian Wells match and their US open match. And while reading about this infamous US open match, I happened to read in your times article about how it all went down. And I was really surprised. They say, quote, Serena Williams became unhinged in a shocking display of vitriol and profanity toward a line judge at the most inopportune time. Saturday night Williams attorney would had been scintillating women's match into an ugly improbable spectacle that gave place, tres unseeded wildcard entry, making a joyful return to grand slam tennis, a six, four, seven, five victory. She could not even celebrate. Fleiss tres a twenty six year old from Belgium, who's the mother of toddler had frustrated dominated Williams all night after players won the first set William slammed her racket to the court twice, mailing the frame in disgust. She walked to her chair whacking the net with Iraq it on the way and earned a warning for racket abuse placers stayed composed. Now I don't know about you, but for me, calling it ugly, an improbable, spectacles. Shocking Serena being unhinged. Seems like a long list of adjectives to describe a player, losing their cool and going out of your way to say clusters who is the mother of toddler. What does that have anything to do with it? Is her child now scarred come on now. To see the other side of things. Tennis does have a long tradition of really abiding by etiquette. I talked about this with Ben Rothenberg tennis seen as a sport being very genteel, very humble as British origins. And you know, Wimbledon is all about just sort of being polite and kind and quiet and demure playing for the amusement of the air stock recy- and not speaking per making too much noise then makes what is probably obvious point for tennis players. This isn't football or basketball yelling isn't exactly the norm. I thought well, and I should say Ben pointed this out as well. Are there other players tennis who've you know, lost their cool. This leads me to part two who's pounding the table in anger. No mistakes. Six question. The question. Can't be serious. You can be serious. Online. When you. Everyone knows stadium and you pull it out for those, not so into tennis. John McEnroe is one of the best men's tennis players in history known. Mostly I great play in the late nineteen seventies and early eighties. He won seven grand slams seventy seven singles, ornaments and seventy eight doubles titles, which is the highest men's combined total of the open era. Not only this, but he's arguably the best color commentator and professional men's tennis. The combination of stewed up survey Shen and no holds barred, call it like I see scrutiny and in full disclosure, I absolutely enjoy a match much more when he's the one commentating. In fact, McEnroe was commentating in that semi finals match at the US open and came to Serena's defense or really just saying what seemed accurate in regards to that damn footfall. I not having you generally do not see if there you can't all that. Now, McEnroe has also gotten in trouble for saying things about Serena that I think seem unnecessary. And for some reason, he doesn't apologize for them. And usually what he says, I think happens to be during the same time. He's selling a book. So that's kind of b. s. but outside of commentating and winning Johnny Mack is probably best known for his temper during his playing days when he disagreed with the call, he let the empire's, no, or he'd say, things like this. Or this, you're scraping everyone. Here's the speaks kicking this far. Four. Actually unacceptable for this. The worst one partner never seen. You're never gonna work. Or this. Johnny Mak made money off of his temper in a two thousand six commercial for national car rental. After finding out about a deal, he yells any core, you cannot be serious. There are quite a few examples of commercials ads. You name it with McEnroe using that famous temper to his financial advantage and to be clear there ain't nothing wrong with that. Then there is the inspiration. His temper has provided quite literally said the Pacific standard. There's almost something Shakespearean in a McEnroe breakdown. Professional actors have studied it, analyzing his tormented mannerisms and intonations frame by frame Tom hosted. So before playing Mozart Amadeus in McKellen did the same thing when he played coriolanus. The Pacific standard article continues when analyzing an old McEnroe meltdown saying, quote, McEnroe. Now moving in circles like he's feral smacks the ball into the bleachers at allowed now fan before stepping to the service line for pairing for his serve. He looks tortured. He is torture. He's down one six to three. The crowd goes silent. McEnroe leads forward tosses the ball skyward arches backward limbo, like an unclear a machine. The serve is brilliant. The article prefaces. Why at then we'll discuss McEnroe going bonkers over a bad call in Sweden, saying, quote, it deserves a revisitation because among other things, it offers rare insight into the role emotion that marks the inevitable pain of being great. So here's the thing. Every one of my friends is either married or getting married and it's really annoying. I go to each wedding pretty much I smile, but it's sickening on their loan me and myself. I don't really drink. So with few exceptions, it's usually my sober self. The one thing I'll say about these weddings is that I do enjoy the gift part like giving my friends in and their significant others gift. I don't really do gifts per se, though I write letters, I don't wanna get somebody a coffee machine. They can get it on their own. I wanna get them a really thought out personal letter, you know? So maybe that's she's e, but I like to do it that way. And while I spend considerable time drafting and then writing these wedding letters, I don't spend any time actually sending them because stamps dot com. Makes it really easy. You can. By imprint real US postage for any letter or any package all available twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. He just click print mail and you're done stamp SICOM even sends you a digital scale. So right now you can use w. r. h. for this special offer, it's a four week trial. It includes postage and digital scale. Don't wait. Go to stamps dot com before you do anything else. Click on the radio microphone at the top of the homepage and type in w. r. h. that stamps com. Enter w. r. h.. It seems like when McEnroe goes crazy, it's brilliant, I win. Serena goes crazy. She's petulant. Now my comparison here isn't the hate on Johnny. Mack actually wants took a photo with my brother, which was nice of him. He wasn't in the best mood. But anyway, he's done a lot for the game and the future of the game. My point in comparing the two is to show the difference in interpretation. Now, what does this have to do with Indian Wells and what really happened? The thing is whether staring down sexism or racism. The Williams sisters rarely take the bait. If ever they don't charge back, they kind of just rise above it. It's the or seen wells approach. So you can't really say that they are half-hearted denials. It's not how they were brought up. So my opinion, Serena and Venus seem a bit stuck there either too angry or too soft. Endgame of etiquette, their pride seems off putting to many. Now, all of this will not alter, decide whether they didn't factsheet. At Indian Wells. I wanna stick to the facts, but circumstances are vital. After the press conference with Venus and Serena later in the night, the tournament director of Indian Wells says, quote, I only wish she had at least gone out and giving it a try. This hurts the game of tennis more than the individual tournament. He goes on to say that he had heard about the development like everyone else through the PA system minutes before the match. But this account is disputed by Serena in her book on the line in which she talks about what happened. And in this part of the book, the match her sister Venus played before dropping out. It was a tough match mostly because it was ridiculously hot. That's the one knock on Indian Wells. It's out in the desert and it can get really, really hot. Although usually in March, it's not that bad. On this day, though Venus came down with heat exhaustion. She hurt her knee during the match to the book continues. And this is a long portion from the book that I'll read. But it's interesting. Serena's talking about the day. She in Venus, were set to play when we got to the stadium on the morning of the semi-final Venus checked in with the torch trainer and told him she didn't think she could play. She couldn't have done anything before that. And besides she was hoping to be able to compete a lot of times you go to bed in a lot of pain, and you wake up in a lot less pain in your able to play. She wanted to give her body a chance to respond. But when she woke up on the morning of the match, she knew she was in no shape to play a semi-final, a tier one tour event, her knee was giving her too much trouble. She was completely up front about it. She didn't wanna withdrawal, but she believed she had no choice. Daddy tended to leave it to us to listen to our own bodies game day decisions like whether or not we were fit to play were pretty much hours to make. So it was Venus's call that is it was Venus's call until it wasn't see the way it works on the women's tennis assoc-. Tour is that the tournament trainer consults with tournament director on all significant injuries. At least that's how it's supposed to work. If there's a possibility that a player won't be able to compete in her next match, they work it out so that they can reschedule another match in its place. They'll slot in doubles match or junior match, or maybe relocate match from one of the other courts. It happens a lot, so they have all these backup plans in place. And usually no one thinks anything of it. If someone has to pull out it's a shame, but it happens. It's part of the game. The key though is you have to make this kind of decision in a timely manner. The closer you get to your scheduled start time, the less understanding the crowd and the tournament organizers are likely to be. But on this day with the two of us scheduled to go at it in such a big match, no one wanted to see Venus, pull out the tournament director didn't want it. The fans didn't want it. The sponsors didn't want it Venus and. I certainly didn't want it. There was buzz hype drama, and all of that people said it was good for the game match like this. But at the same time, Venus felt strongly that she couldn't play. She knew her body. She knew she wasn't able to go at anything close to full strength more than that. She didn't want to risk more serious injury with three majors coming up in just a few months, no doubt about it. There was a lot riding on this one decision and Venus was a difficult spot if she was an older more stabbed player. She might have been a little more forceful about the situation. She might have bypassed the trainer and gone straight to the director, but she was a relative newcomer and the rule said she had to get the trainers approval before making withdrawal. So for hours and hours, that was what she tried to do, and for hours and hours, she got a kind of stiff arm from the trainer who kept telling her to hold off on making any kind of final decision. It's also important to note as Joel Drucker point. Fid out in a telling really well, contextualized thousand nine ESPN article. Venus was twenty and Serena was nineteen. At the time we're talking about people who couldn't even legally drink yet. Serena would go on to say she understood why the crowd was upset. I would have been mad too. If I paid my money and gone to all the hassle and hustle of getting to the stadium, Serena sudden her book I sat there and thought, what advantage? What did either one of us have to gain by any of this? In fact, the walkover as in Venus, dropping out, actually cost me points in the rankings because of Venus had actually tried to play for a couple of games before withdrawing. Those points would have come my way. I reached out Indian Wells for comment or to be interviewed, but they didn't respond regardless as this hectic day is coming to an end and people have digested that this semifinals match just wasn't in the cards. People are taking some deep breaths. Sure. Wasn't fun for anyone, but maybe it's time to move on. So it's the next day Friday time to intimate the big finals match between Serena and Kim Clijsters, and then just as a scriptwriting, God's would want it. An extraordinary article comes out that people to this day still reference, even if you just read the headline and what was in bold. You get the gist dad ordered Serena to lose tennis scandal, rocks families, one hundred sixty million dollar empire. Some don't believe the article came out that Friday, but regardless it did come out right around this time of Venus dropping out. So it only amp. Defies what Elena had said. It adds to the narrative. When the sisters do play, the matches are fixed, and this article has crucial components to it that make it newsworthy. There are two name sources who say, Richard told them how he ordered Serena to lose to Venus at Wimbledon. One is a cousin of the sisters and the other is Richard Williams ex girlfriend. So I'll let you decide what you make of that. When I speak with reporters, many point to this article that quotes these two people on the record, saying, Richard, fix the matches despite it being an exit Richards and a cousin who one would necessarily think is on the inside. They do go on the record an in journalism. That's a big deal. I find extraordinary is that this quote unquote article comes from the National Enquirer and the National Enquirer pays people to talk with enough money. You can get just. About anybody to say anything. So without going on on about this, these two people who are quoted, I wouldn't consider reliable even if it wasn't the National Enquirer on a side. Note, it's fascinating how much the National Enquirer seems to hide behind these articles. While I kept hearing people mentioned, the article couldn't find it anywhere. Couldn't find the full article online that contract down the reporters that wrote the article hard to even get their emails. Nothing I eventually had to buy it online and having old copy son to me for context very lucky and have some great resources and databases and confined relatively easily. Old papers dating back a century from all parts of the world. The fact that I couldn't find this article come on now. Finally, it Saturday, hopefully hopefully it's time for everything to move on at about six pm. Serena Williams takes the court. People cheer her entrance and the match will finally lift off except when she takes the court. This happens. American crowd, an American family, and you have to say that it does smack a little bit of races. And then Richard and Venus, Williams walk down to their seats by the court to watch the match. And this happens moments ago, more drama Venus and Richard Williams. Very tense situation carry. Never seen anything like this. It's pretty amazing. Incredible. For so long. Richard is struck by the Saul. And so he raises his arm and puts his fist up a LA, the nineteen sixty eight Olympics. Richard Williams will go on to say that about a dozen fans used a racial slur directed at him and Venus, as they walked to their seats. He also says he heard someone say, quote, I wish you were seventy five read skin you alive. But reporter's question this. I think there are two reasons. One most of the reporters are white and to Richard Williams at this point is well known for making things sound more extreme than they are Kirk Patrick from ESPN the magazine, put it this way. I think Richard has cried wolf. So many times that now if it's happening, nobody is believing him anymore. But it's also worth bearing in mind who Richard is and where he's from, perhaps Charles Elmore more from the Palm Beach post, put it best at that moment. Richard Williams was back in Compton. When he would take his daughter's tennis tournaments, the looks in their faces told him, you don't belong here. Who are you? Selena Roberts. Who was there? Puts things in context. He heard facial slurs. He was walking down. I didn't find that it wasn't around us what we were in the press tied enough. Not that that it didn't happen, but we couldn't find anybody trying to interview people that were in those sections couldn't find that. But I don't know. I mean, when you are enduring a lot of of hostility, you know, I'm not say I would never say, oh, it never happened because just 'cause we didn't find it. You don't often have people raise their hands, hey, the racist here. So it's not a prize that we didn't find somebody who admitted to saying it on the very first point which Clijsters wins the crowd Rupp's as if she won the match. This continues for the entire match. An interesting side. Note, one person who did take to Serena was Kim Clijsters who Serena played against in that US open final in which she lost her. Cool. And at this infamous finals match, at Indian Wells said, Selena Roberts, they had a fondness for each other and she was playing her friend and was rattled as well by by the response because every ball read ahead to the debt was cheered and she was booed in between points and I've never seen anything like it, and I told the sports for in the print world for almost three years and I'd never seen anything like it sowed. One of Serena sisters, you're in your home state where you're from couple hours south of Compton, and you're being booed and the person they're cheering is Belgian. Regardless of what Richard said. It does seem to me in my. Research people forgotten that Serena Williams said in her book and a documentary about her quote, someone called me the n bomb. I didn't pray to win. I prayed to get through it. Serena does win. And when she hits the winning shot. Then as she approaches her dad and sister, the booze suddenly get even louder over to her. Her father and her sister. And then when receiving the championship award, Serena says this to the fans as they boo, everyone that's afforded me and. Guys, anyway, thank you. This is classic Williams. Serena is getting booed after winning, and she is literally thanking the fans for their support. Something a daughter does when raised by or seen price, but the endless booing the racial slurs that her family heard when entering the stadium that day will not be forgotten. Serena says, she'll never play there again. Vox media has done a great deal of reporting on the racism. The Williams sisters have faced throughout their lives. Continuing to this day, there's a two thousand five telegraph article in which a writer says, generally, I'm all for chunky sports stars, but tennis requires a mobility. Serena cannot hope to achieve while lugging around breasts that are registered to vote in a different US state from the rest of her at the two thousand seven Sony Ericsson championship in Miami. A heckler was jetted from the stands after yelling at Williams. That's the way to do it. Hit the net like any negro would sports writer, Jason Whitlock who I invited on the show, and he declined said in two thousand nine Fox Sports column that Serena shouldn't have chosen to smother her beauty it an unsightly layer of thick muscled blubber. He went on to say that quote, I'm not fundamentally opposed to junk in the trunk. Although my preference is a stuffed onion over an using. Bumpkin. This is a published article by journalist, and then aside from fans and journalists, there is the professional tennis community in two thousand fourteen former Russian player and current coach Shamila Tarpischev called the Williams sisters, brothers, adding. It's frightening when you look at them. Luckily rea- people JK rolling who tweeted the following after seeing a slur directed at Serena Williams on her time line, a Twitter account that went by at d. e. g. t. r. I s. t. a. n. eight said Serena was quote built like a man to it's rolling tweeted back. Yeah. My husband looks just like that in a dress urine idiot, even reporters, maybe skeptical at first that racism was still so rampant have been surprised. Although from a few years back, I sold interview from the great Karen cross a reporter from the New York Times who said. To this day. I can't write a story about Venus or Serena without receiving just hateful hate spewed messages. And I shudder to think of some of the things they must be receiving. I spoke some more with James. Blake again, once ranked fourth in the world, men's tennis and born to African American father and a British mother, he spoke of the racism he faced there was the serious time when we have to actually have the FBI involved. The Ferrers. Death threats to my parents workplaces. And when I first had success. It was found out where my parents worked, which was scary and called the mom and called her n word lover. And that she is gonna, you know, see needs to stop playing or else. They're gonna bomb her plate. Her office in his office tried to put it out of my mind as much as possible put in the hands of the FBI. They. Took care of it and let us know that the threat and been taken care of. We are okay to go back to work. Finally, in terms of this question on race, it's helpful to follow the money Serena by twenty thirteen had won. Twenty grand slam singles, titles and thirteen grand slam doubles titles. The two top bring players in the world were Serena, Maria. Sharapova Serena held a seventeen in two lifetime record against Sharipova yet according to the Forbes, twenty fourteen ranking of the richest athletes in the world Sharipova earn twenty two million endorsements and Serena earned eleven million and endorsements. So as Forbes points out, Serena has four times as many single slams compared to Maria. But Maria Sharapova is making double the amount. In fact, Sharipova made more and endorsements. Then Serena for. Eleven years up until twenty sixteen when Serena's brilliant could no longer be underestimated or so. I thought as it turns out in twenty sixteen Williams did finally overtake share Povo in endorsement money because in March of that year, Sharipova failed a drug test for doping. Now we'll I find really interesting is how the Williams sisters have handled racial prejudice, how they handled being black women in a mostly white sport. First off, they didn't back away from the race or go out of their way to try and fit in as kids coming up through the tennis ranks and becoming worldwide celebrities. The sisters would wear beads in their hair beads for those that don't know are among the most important symbols in African culture past and present African beads. Jewels of the continent by Evelyn cmec, which is an amazing book by the way reveals just how much beads mean to African culture pride. Beauty, power and identity during the slave trade Africans were sold in exchange for beads. And so who's idea was it for the sisters to wear beads, of course, or seen price. The Williams family didn't lean away from being black. Chris rock remarked the beads, made them black black black. So the Williams sisters wearing beads wasn't just some style thing to make their hair different in cool or seen continued. I schooled the girls on that end word issue. I said, you might get called that if you do just say, thank you. I love it. You know, I'm so sick of people saying the n. word, forget it. It's what you are say it go on eventually when they see it doesn't bother you the leave it alone. I can't wait for someone to say it. I've been planning on it. She wanted her daughters to be proud of who they were. Now, despite all of this for those believing this was a conspiracy it works because Serena did win. Indian Wells, she beat Kim Clijsters after understanding best I could about what happened learning from a wide array of people to interviews to newspaper databases. I went through my notes compiled over a few months to see what was left in terms of anything that could be an accusation that was fair, not even necessarily a smoking gun, but something that proves this was fixed after unraveling. A lot of what is to really just love about Serena, the intent. Here's to keep my blinders on and stick to the facts. I've made some mistakes in my personal life on a date with a Brazilian woman. I told her I needed to brush up on my Brazilian. Idiot, not smart on a date with an extremely smart woman who I couldn't believe. I had a chance to even meet. I got nervous started talking about how clouds are underrated that clouds like clouds in the air are really interesting, no idea what that means. Idiot, not smart. I'm also made a mistake on the workfront twenty seven years old scholastic offer me a book deal to write an autobiography. I spent a lot of time on it. It was pretty good, I thought, so that my parents, but if sales are any indication, nobody else did chinks not smart. What I really wish I had was someone who could say, dude, you're twenty seven your ego and check. Sometimes I think this is true. You really don't want, yes, people, you want people that know, context and circumstances, and we'll tell you what you need to hear and sometimes that's harder to do. And so here we go, here's here's a transitionary for this. You know, what is smart going to zip Rick. Cruiser dot com. Slash w. r. h. to hire the right person. ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. It's powerful matching technology scans, thousands of resumes identifies people with the right skills, education, inexperienced for your job. An actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates fast. That's why ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the United States. And this rating does come from hiring sites on trust pilot with over thousand reviews. And right now, my listeners, all of you can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash w. r. h. that ZipRecruiter dot com slash w. r. h. ZipRecruiter dot com. Slash w. r. h. for what really happy. Opened ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. I don't know frankly how someone isn't rooting for Serena Williams at this point in my process I am. But with all that said, here are a few facts that could resonate in terms of the Williams sisters and their father sheeting. One allow one of them to get the rest so that when they play in the finals, they're well rested and raided ago. But after asking some Tennis Professionals and experts that also messes with your routine and so doesn't make much sense to what most don't bring up as a reason is that Richard new Serena loved Indian Wells. So maybe let her win this match that she really cares about. But the thing is that's a fairly obscure reason and doesn't really land. Well, it doesn't land on any tangible facts. Really. The easiest thing to do would be to let Venus play a few games. Against arena, and then pull out because of an injury. So cross those out. Next, there's bud Collins, wife, I, I should mention that Collins was a longtime and extremely well liked and respected tennis reporter. His wife, Anita said Email to a Sports Illustrated reporter bud was about to do TV when the Venus Serena match was cancelled with about five minutes. Notice I happen to be walking through the inner corridor and Solveen is running, pass me. I said, good luck. She said, hi and ran on. It did not appear to me that she had the slightest injury. The audience was well within the rights to boo. They were booing. Poor manners. Venus never came out to explain or apologize. There was nothing racial about it. Now, bud's wife is sticking up for the fact that accusing over ten thousand people of being racists is unfair. An, I'd agree with her, but to say, you saw Venus running around in the back corridor sounds far fetched my opinion. You can't exactly say running around in a hallway means you're good to go play healthy professional tennis next. There's Venus Williams appearing at that finals match two days later after she said she couldn't play. The thing is when she is walking down those stairs, she seems fine. So accusations come out not just from around the world, but from respected news outlets. The New York Times said that she revealed no sign of a limp, no wrap on her controversial, right knee. And this is true. She doesn't appear to have a limp, but we've seen athletes time and time again unable to walk one day, but they sleep on it and well, sometimes it's either. Worse the next day. Other times it's completely fine. Good. His new also if Venus thought this was important or some sort of story, she could've faked a limp. So that only leaves the following none of which I think really add up the Williams sisters, denial of potential match fix, aren't denied as forcefully as some think they should be. Then there's Elena, then there's members of the media with conjecture like the match smelled funny, and then there's the National Enquirer and last the fact that there was some reason to do this for the rankings. Facts can be stubborn. Things said John Adams, none of those add up. The Williams sisters didn't grow up like most others. In the tennis world us didn't have the same approach and they really hated playing each other. And so they'd miss certain tournaments, the more I've come to understand this, the more it seems it's a sign of deep-rooted sisterly love oppose to Machiavelli and tactics. Sometimes oftentimes splashy headlines, get attention and the body of the content underneath that headline is void of proof, much less proper information. We've been asking the Williams sisters to prove something that they can't asking them to prove something that doesn't seem to have happened unfounded in any facts. But as Paul, Harvey would say, don't let noisy news distress you. Don't let the headline writers rain on your parade. It is clear there was no match fixing. And so while I closed this chapter, Serena opened a new one in twenty fifteen after refusing to play at Indian Wells for nearly fifteen years. She decided to return on February fourth, two thousand fifteen. Serena Williams wrote in announcement for time magazine in this announcement among other things. She says that Indian Wells quote haunted me for a long time. It haunted Venus in our family as well. But most of all, angered and saddened my father, he dedicated his whole life to prepping us for this incredible journey and Mary had to sit and watch his daughters being taunted, sparking cold memories of his experiences growing up in the south thirteen years in a lifetime. In tennis later, things feel different. A few months ago when a Russian official made racist and sexist remarks about. Venus me the w. TA and US TA immediately condemned him. It reminded me of how far the sport has come and how far I've come to. I have faith that fans in Indian Wells have grown with the game and know me better than they did in two thousand. And one Indian Wells was a pivotal moment of my story, and I'm a part of the torn -ment story as well together. We have a chance to write a different ending. So Serena triumphantly returns in twenty fifteen. And when she returns, this is the reaction she gets when she takes the court, a standing ovation. Gentlemen. About a minute into this. Cheers only get louder. In the crowd is a proud mother tearing up or seen price also towards the front Bill Gates. And I can't forget smiling and clapping is none other than John McEnroe a Hollywood ending, almost Serena Windsor. First few matches and is prepared to play in the semi-finals the last time she was in the semi-finals. She didn't play as you know by now Venus was injured and dropped out. Well, in a turn that I wish David foster Wallace was around to describe something surreal happens before the semi-finals is set to begin ESPN interviews, Serena's coach. You have pain since a few days ready? The yesterday practice, it became really, really worse. Of course, you really wanted to play really bad. So this morning we decided to try. She was really about when she couldn't bend the knee. So difficulty matching playing. She wanted to ways hoping that maybe literate will be better. And we, we finally practice if you hours before the mess ban she, she decided to injection tried to play, but even within the injection shipping shed a little find even walking. So it didn't make sense to go on the court, not being able to play Serena drops out because of an injury in the semifinals. She's leaving the tournament in a car. One can assume disappointed. The tournament is ending again with a match not played headed to get an MRI to see just how bad the injury is. When Serena stops the driver turn around. She says she wants to get to the court until everyone herself. What's happening. Not a turn them in organizer or her coach. She walks to the center of the core with tears in her eyes. Practice just really injured by me through and I kept laying and. Today, I just sit the struggling just to just even walk and it was. It was really sad because you know, I, I really just about four months ago. I decided to start this journey and comeback here, and we'll place that I've had so much success and it's been a wonderful journey. And I have to say that I'm so excited. They want to come out here and to start to build so many wonderful new memories. And I only promise to come back next year and play right here on this running you guys that it will be my friends. On the health of everybody here with India wells. We wish we'd love you. This is always home and please doesn't invitation for you. Ladies and gentlemen, the number one player. Serena williams. Three. What a lovely ending to the story as the sun sets in the eighty two degree not so fast Raymond Moore, the CEO of Indian Wells tournament made some news, one of the most popular tennis tournaments in the world. But this morning Raymond more the men in charge of the BNP Paribas open at Indian Wells in California is causing uproar over his comments about female tennis players. You know. In my next life. When I come back, I want to be someone in the WTA. They ride on the coattails of the men. They don't make any decision than that. Lucky. If I was lady clay, I'd go down every every night on my knees and think the Roger Federer and the rough on the Delhi board because they've carried the sport Serena Williams who won the event twice. And was this year's runner up responded immediately. These. And. He's not. A long way and. Disservice her. Raymond Moore was soon fired and reached out to him, but he didn't call back in response to women writing the men's coat-tails Robin Roberts brilliantly commented on good Morning America does he know that at the US open this past year, the women's singles final sold out before the vans in two thousand seventeen Serena won the Australian Open, but then began missing tournaments, including Indian Wells, which made total sense when this news broke, we are back now with that exciting Baidu foot, Serena Williams, tennis superstar revealing cheese pregnant as pointed out. Serena again, broke boundaries this time for people's perceptions of pregnant women and what they're capable of. I for one did not know the following being pregnant, winning a grand slam title. Now I've never done either, but I hear both can be challenging. Well, apparently Serena Williams. Did them both at the same time earlier this. Here. That's right. She was about eight weeks pregnant when she won the Australia, and this is one small part of why I believe Serena is the best athlete of our generation. Serena has won seventy two titles and in open era record of twenty three grand slam singles, titles Serena has been rang number one on eight separate occasions between two thousand two and two thousand seventeen. Perhaps what I find most impressive is her career record. Serena has won seven hundred eighty nine times to one hundred thirty two losses. This is a career winning percentage of eighty five point six, seven percent. So every one hundred matches or so that she plays, she's winning eighty five of them. It's a higher number than Roger Federer who sits at seventy two point. Oh seven percent. This is why Roger Federer has called Serena the greatest ever. Why? Billie. Jean King has said the same. In early twenty eighteen Serena decided her first tournament play since giving birth would be at Indian Wells after getting through the first two rounds. She was facing a tough opponent in the third round. It was a beautiful night as she got ready to play. Richard unfortunately was not there. He hasn't been in the spotlight is much recently. He's getting older and how to stroke in twenty sixteen that. I do want to say that when Richard was asked only a few years ago about all of the success, his daughters have had with tennis. His response had me kind of smiling. He said to this day, I think Venus and Serena's education is better than their tennis despite the manifestos hours of practice and throwing rackets and football's as far as possible. Richard always kept his eye on his daughters education. And so finally. In that third round of Indian Wells, Serena's opponent played her and Serena was defeated sort of what really happened. She lost her best friend and her big sister Venus to build to do that things that you have done and to keep fighting. And to be such a role model, there are hundreds of little girls walking around here tonight who are seeing you as a role model? What does that mean? Yeah. I'm from right down the street in California and. Where we come from key put in the work and you believe in yourself, you can do anything. Jacome here and walk out on this court. The significance on so many levels to feel the love for you, and here's palpable. There are a lot of fans in here will always be home for you, and we love you here. Next week on what really happened in the last couple of years. American embassy officials in Cuba, China and who's Becca, STAN. I've been getting injured certain US government officials have claimed they were sonic attacks at different points in my journey. I've been convinced that the critic weapons don't even exist that this was the Russians and then the Cubans and then believe it or not the Americans or that it was rogue factions within different countries. Only then think maybe it was invited mental factors or mass hysteria or wide range of other medical conditions. I've never heard of. I do have an opinion by the end of this, but it's been a long ride of talking with the CIA human embassador 's neurologist, spies and a guy named golden. That's next week on what really happened. If you like the show, it means a lot to me if you can subscribe on apple podcasts and I know your time is valuable, but even leaving comment, nice comment would be much appreciated also. Well, many of you may be wondering if we're going to discuss what happened in just the last year of Serena's life from her catsuit at the French Open to the uproar over the US open redo. Have our reaction episodes and reaction episodes are really cool chance for all of you to tell me what you think. Facts that I may have gotten wrong in the episode or opinions you have or the latest events that have occurred in St. his career. You can also become in this is unique to season to really show you can become a contributor to our show by calling our contributors number at four one, three, four, seven one, two, nine, seven, five, that's four one, three, four, seven one, two, nine, seven, five, or you can go to our website Jenks pod dot com. Tom slash contributors, I wanna thank our producers, Dwayne Johnson, Danny Garcia, Brian, Goertz in everyone. A cadence, thirteen. You Christine. Ary guests. I wanna thank very much for coming on the week's up Assode Selena Roberts, spin Rothenberg and James. Blake.
What Really Happened?
Aired 4 months ago 101:19
Episode 148: Am I Wrong?
Very bad wizards is the podcast with philosopher my dad and psychologist, Dave Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues and science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm allowed to say and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes with you. People. I have not a monster. I'm with thoughts and feelings for God's sake. I'm a grad student. Man. Plan. Anybody can have. Very, very good man. Just to say that wisit welcome to very bad wizards. I'm Tamla summers from the university of Houston, Dave after a recent tweet of mine, you texted me to say that I've officially joined the intellectual dark web. They haven't told me when my induction ceremony is yet, but when they do, do you wanna come as my plus one. Absolutely. In fact, I'll take the dark pictures. How about that. So the tweet in question. What I saw dude, when I saw it, I was like, oh God, he turned why? Why? Why. I, I'm gonna tell I'm going to say why, but let me just say what it is. I because I I'm on record in this on this podcast of of saying that this is exactly the kind of thing I shouldn't do. I think it wasn't that long goes to ago. So this it was about the Serena Williams Madge and we're gonna talk about that. Right? Serena Williams against Naomi Osaka in the US open final. And Serena had trouble with the pyre kind of an outburst and it was this big was a big controversy that took away in my judgment from just an incredible run at the US open by Neo MIO Asaka anyway. Adam Weinstein, some guy at BuzzFeed. Tweeted and the reason I know about this because listener that I like, and that is a young philosopher Ryan lake re tweeted and said, he kind of agreed even though he didn't know much about tennis. So this is the tweet that I was responding to see. Dudes complain that Serena Williams is rude, and I wonder if they grew up like me watching McEnroe and Connors be celebrated for irascible court, douchebag ary or now. It was the Orna that got me. Tone that bothered you just the or like like, it's it's, it's an incredibly insufferable tweet and also just completely factually inaccurate. People were all over McEnroe. Nobody liked Connors, nobody liked Connors and certainly nobody liked. No. I mean, people like Connor series. But but wait, we wait, but nobody celebrated Connors, yelling at officials McEnroe every once in a while you would have people who who liked that side of him because it was funny. He could be funny about it, but that was never true of Connors. And there were so many people who criticize John McEnroe who lay unfairly lambasted him even when he was in the right or when it was reasonable. And when you compare that to Serena, not only was there not a double standard in the reaction like Serena was getting way way way more love than either of those two did after an incident like what happened to Serena? So this is my judgment. This is what I tweeted. This is bullshit. Plenty of people complained about McEnroe and nobody celebrated Connors rance because he was just a dick Macke could at least be funny Serena getting way more. I love than either of them for their outbursts, which is fine. She Serena, but this is just false. So I tweeted that. And then this is what I have to live with in my life via tweet. Anything like this. My stepmother will re tweet. It. And then my stepmother retweeted it, then Ben Shapiro I take it. This is why you think I'm now inducted into the idea w Ben Shapiro re tweeted it and I don't know for sure, but it's probably my most retweeted and liked. I put money on. Yeah, right. What's that? Now it's like almost two thousand likes and three hundred thirty. Four re tweets, which I didn't want and was like that that was never what I was after, but but but I stand by everything I said, and I, I'm not even sure I would do it again. Like I would just not do it even if I could because I really was bothered by how people reacted to that. And so so. Okay. So so as we talked a little bit about this and we decided I, I was like, no ten was going to talk about on the show, but but we're more broadly we didn't even realize how much tennis fans we were. We had. We've never really talked about it. So I grew up, you know, we watched soccer as a kid, but tennis was always on right if there is any tournament to this day, my mom who could give not. Fuck about sports is a huge tennis fan and, and I love watching it. I watched McEnroe and we're both old enough somebody who's you of not being old enough. Yeah, which was the funniest? The funniest exchange. Was like, yeah. Well, thank you. You're wrong. To Makomo. I pro athlete. I was like such a huge fan of. It is funny. It's a, it's a. Texted to you that how predictable it was that you like McEnroe and I was a fan of Yvonne Lendl like zero charisma, but that's not predictable because I didn't know that there were fans of. So I, you know. To to me reading all of these exchanges and your tweet, I can't help, but think that people are just talking about very different things, and there's this outrage that's going over just missing its target. So so let let me make an attempt to unpacking a little bit. So. One is whether or not the ref's call and and his subsequent calls to penalize a point was unfair. So so there's there's that question right? If if there is a sense that this is unfair, and the thing is you got penalized for was that in tennis, you're not allowed to communicate with your coach during a match or even during warmups. And apparently there was a hand signal that much is true. He was trying to send her a handle to come into the net. Yeah, whether or not she saw that hand signal, it seems as if she probably didn't. But the rule states that that's irrelevant. He's not allowed to give her hand signals whether or not she sees now, I think what was that question was whether or not anybody else right? As far as I understand it, this is not an uncommon practice at all, and and to get penalized for it seems seems. Like it's not at least it's not par for the course to mix sports. And now so, but some context on that, it's not like it's never called. It's rare loan called and I don't. It probably shouldn't be called in the final of. Calling a penalty in extra time in a soccer game when it was, you know, there was like ki-tak penalties. Yeah, right, right. And then there's the question of whether or not her tantrum is justified or not justify, but whether we should, we should condemn her or whether this is a bad sportsmanship or whatever. And I, I'm fine saying that's Serena, should throw tantrums just find. I actually hated McEnroe when I was growing up. I hated Jimmy Connors a little bit less. McEnroe just seem to have this fucking delight in doing it. And here is where I think I disagree with you just about some empirical facts about whether or not of course of course, he was condemned routinely for his tantrums. But there were a lot of people who just did like him. I handwrite I mean, and I don't think they were that funny. I've been they were genuine operas. I think in interviews he was more personable and charming, but I think his on court behavior was as irascible as if. So lots of male players have outbursts Federer has. I don't know if is, but Djokovic has like all of these guys. They've had outbursts. They've had rans. Nobody likes them because of those rants they're always regrettable. They're always you like them in spite of the Ran's McEnroe might be the one exception. I maintain because he could be clever and he could be funny, but even but he was getting tons of shit. But here the empirical disagreement is over. The difference between them, Serena is routinely celebrated my disagreement with you was the claim that like that. What matters here is that that McEnroe was was vilified in the press, and I think that so he was, but he was also glorified in a way that and it's not just McEnroe. I mean, people like Agassi like they develop a reputation for sort of being. Emotional and and people that's part of who they are. So. I mean, that is definitely true to the extent that it's true of Agassi. It's even more true of Serena that she people love how much she care and rightly so and how much passion and competitive for tantrum like, but I don't. Agassi was so braided for any tantrums. I think McEnroe was for sure. That, like I think if I recall correctly even had sponsorships that were sort of playing up on that bad boy image only three in his, but right. So McEnroe did because that was part of his. It's not part of Serena's identity. It's not part of any other males players identity to the extent that it was for McEnroe. Maybe Lena Stasi, but nobody liked Illionis Ozzy either. And the people who respond to say that he had a cute cuddly nickname net nastiness Stasi like that's not nasty has become like maybe now if you watch porn. Let's like that's, that's by the way nauseous nickname. It's a horrible, horrible cultural appropriation of one of the great rapper smashed in us. Can you culturally appropriate something before like thirty years before that prison. So like maybe so maybe so I just don't see anybody. I mean, maybe people people really celebrate Serena four for her displays of emotion, and maybe that's the case. And maybe McEnroe is just the one example. You know, I don't know of any woman who's been celebrated for that kind of behavior. I'm perfectly fine saying that she shouldn't throw tantrums. I don't like it and if people celebrated her for those terms, I think it would be bad. I think people celebrate her for a lot of times, especially like her behavior afterwards when she was being so kind to Asaka, you know. Okay, can go into the details of what happened is I watch. Did you watch the final? I didn't watch it live? No, I watched it live. So just to give context for my reaction and why am I might seem like I care about this more than I should. I watched it live. I'm a big Serena fan. I, I always I almost. Always root for her. I wouldn't say I always, but almost always there's no other female tennis player that I that I like more end. I'll also say that I think that both her and her sister, but maybe Serena, especially have been in the past treated unfairly and been victims of racist, really bad treatment from the tennis community and that most of the time they rise above it in a way that is beyond Adam, admirable right now. I'd also I've been watching this tournament and this Sokha I started to really like she like this. She's born in Japan, but she's lived in the United States for most of her life, but she has a very strong Japanese identity, very polite, very shy, but also speaks her mind. Serena was her idol. She was why her father started St.. Started training her at a at a very young age modeling. So I really liked you. I found myself rooting for her during the match because she's a really likeable and an an incredible town and unflappable and really she's strong. I won't say I knew her before this tournament, but I started rooting for her during this tournament and found myself to my surprise rooting for her to beat Serena in the maj because this is her idol, and Serena is her, you know, this is this this, which is usually usually you root for like the clear dominant ones like, you know, the patriots and the Celtics, usually favorite people who are winning. So you can just ride that wave has nothing fact that I grew up in Boston, not moving on. Asaka crushes her in the first set six, two and is down a break in the second set, but immediately breaks back and somewhere in there either before Serena broker or when or when Naomi Osaka broke back the the first violation happened now, this is it's a violation. It's violation that is, although Serena has to suffer it. It is a violation on the coach for signally, right? It's not a violation that says Serena, saw it or that they have some special code or anything like that you didn't need. It was clear what he was telling her to do, and Serena reacted to that by saying, I'm not a cheater, I'm a mother. I'm not a cheater, I would never cheat. I would rather. I would rather lose than cheat. Nobody called her cheater, it was a violation that the coach committed and that is in that is a genuine violation that probably the empire shouldn't have called, but nobody called her a cheater and she well shouldn't let it what I think that that from the perspective of player like she didn't even realize that the coach had signalled that. So she's getting this call saying that, you know, the rule is that there's communication and that's what's rule is it's forbidden that the that the coach is not allowed to. It says no communication between the coach and the player, right? And that's open for interpretation obviously because because is it intended communication does have to be received, but that's not even important. What what I think is being caught by surprise that you were accused of exchanging signals in a way that you know is violating the rules and getting penalized for it. I like if anything, I thought you you would be in pro like. Favor of her defending her honor being leveled like she didn't know that her coach. It actually tried that you would say like, yeah. Let's assume for the sake of argument that she didn't genuinely surprised. But yeah, we don't know. We don't know. The coach seemed to the coach, definitely did it. He admitted afterwards. I think she couldn't. She. There's no way that she was completely shocked even if she didn't see it that the coach had done it right because it's a standard thing that coaches do. She's been in matches where that's been called before. And so she knows that this is now this gets called this was called twice in the US open. Not only twice. They're all like a hundred matches and it was only called twice before, but it does get called and to say that it is an act tantamount to an accusation of cheating is in my view, ludicrous, it is a violation. It is a game manship violation that a lot of people do like taking too long to serve, you know, taking a bounce the ball too many times. I mean that you could say that's cheating. You're not allowed to do that. But. This. I mean this one, you don't agree that this one strikes Moore's cheater even than taking too long. I mean, there's a difference between. Like getting legally coached and and bouncing the baltimat- times and one, I think the clear goal is to get an edge on the competition unless you're really doing something weird with that, both of them, you know, you're, you're taking too long either to to psych them out or to give yourself more time to rest before the next point. I mean, you're always doing these things for an advantage, right? But you could do a little bit of that stuff psyching out. That's not just like it seems to me that in the face of it, but communication between coach and player. Okay. So clear here instance of a cheater attempt. So even so, okay, even granting you that she had to know that there was a good chance that the coach really did signal so, and that's what he was calling. That's what the the guy was calling. Right. And and given that it is technically correct. It's technically correct call to keep at him, which she was. Was at every change over I, I demand apology. I am a mother. I would never cheat. I demand an apology. I could. She kept at it at every at every change over. So then the next changeover or at the end of another game, she throws her racket down and breaks her racket. And that's another violation. Nobody disputes that that's violation or not allowed to do that. And because she had had the earlier violation. Now that's a point against her and then she lost her mind. Again, demanding apologies. There's no way the judge can apologize or the empire can apologize for making a technically correct call. There's no, but this is true in all sports, right? Like the amount of complaining that you get in sports like it's never the case that they're going to reverse a call. So I just wanna be clear because I actually. Appall she wanted an apology. No, I know. But like the words that she chose, I just wanna be clear whether you you think that it was that she threw a tantrum that that is is wrong. And like when mce throw through tantrum you it was wrong, can you? But you somehow like, yeah, I, I love Serena. Like, I don't think that this detracts from her greatness. I've saying she was clearly in the wrong. She was riling the crowd up for something that they shouldn't have been riled up for. She was taking the spotlight away from a young star from who idolized her. And she knew she was doing this and bringing in the fact that she was a mother rubs me the wrong way to in that that had nothing to do with what was going on. And the whole thing about hugging her afterwards, like like any like half decent person would do that. This girl is putting you've looked into the great. What could have been the greatest moment of her life. She has played a part in in really pushing that. I just. I just, I mean, but that doesn't mean we can't give credit for doing 'cause she didn't have to do. It should have been. I should've been been horrible person, but I think she all way more credit than that, like and I don't think it was this incredibly nice gesture. I think it was Serena at some level realizing, oh, man, like I, I really shouldn't have reacted in this way to to what happened because it wasn't that bad. Yes, maybe there's a double standard. Maybe when he called her him a thief, he I actually not even maybe I don't think he should have given the game penalty. That's I think that's at the heart of it. And that's why I'm more resistant to this because I think that that giving the game the game away or game. Penalty taking a whole game and just giving it to a sock like talk. I didn't want that's part of the rule, though he can't give an, he can't give another penalty sides that, right, so enormous Arkham senses, they would just war and plenty of plenty of players come out to say. Like I've said, so much worship and only warnings. And I think that's at the heart of this which is, and this is something we can never know and maybe doesn't even know whether or not that decision was driven by some double standard of treatment for Serena as a person. Serena as women Serena's a black person who knows, who knows, all we know is that normally that wouldn't occur and it wouldn't occur in under these circumstances. That's what that debate is whether or not this is by dint of her being either women or or a black person or a black woman, and that we can't. That's one of those questions where given the context that you so you pointed to what they've dealt within their past. I don't see it as. Stretch that she would be incensed thinking that it might be one of those. Okay. So I'm with you there, but my of Jackson to her behavior comes before that, like how she acted before the game was taken away from her because this was all set in motion before that. And then, yes, do I think the empire under those circumstances should should just have said, look, if you say one more if you call me at the foreign more time or you ask that I apologize one more time I'm going to have to take a game away from you. I don't wanna do that, but I'm gonna have to do it. And then if she had done it, then you know, you know, nothing's can do, but at, but he so that's fine. But the fact is that that house she acted before that was is is a real problem because she was already taking away from Asaka who's and Asaka was winning. And this was her way of of taking. She would never have reacted that way. If she. Had been winning to that. I, I think this is a little bit. Why think that that even this conversation, I think it becomes like. I'm with you on an even texture you that I'm with you on just the condemnation of of her behavior before the decision. That's why was saying that. I think people are arguing sort of their crossing their streams here in a weird way where the outrage is about the decision to Docker points and the other people are saying, but like you're not, you're not admitting that her behavior was horrible and every- everybody knows that that behavior was horrible, and she's be throwing a tantrum in lost control. And I think those two things are totally, right. Well, yeah, and I don't even know about horrible, but just definitely that's what that criticisms be little bit. Right? Because I was like, if you're a McEnroe fan, then you have a high tolerance for that stuff. I've never liked when Connors McEnroe did that shit. Like always thought it was so petulant so I don't have a problem, but so the narrative after this is what was frustrating about that guys tweet is the narrative was that Serena was entirely the victim of this. Again, Sokha who is really who my heart went out for in this whole thing. She was just getting relegated to just nothing. She want her. She's twenty years old. She wanna first grand slam championships. This was her first grand slam final. She's idle, the person. She was her Eitel like none of that mattered. Serena was a victim and that was the narrative. So then to see people like this guy who I don't believe watch tennis when. Yeah. People like Ryan lake, who I have ton of respect for sort of agreeing with him in spite of the fact that they didn't watch the match. They don't know anything about tennis or rules at were anything. It just struck me as like, I get why these conservative people are react this way to like this kind of just unthinking like assumptions of racism and sexism. But what I'm saying is is that you can understand those reactions since they were after the game that they were responding to the events unfolded in their completion, like the docking of one point. Like if they think that that was unfair and whether or not it was consciously done so that it was a result of of who Serena is the nets that seems like that's what they're reacting, but that's not what the guys tweet is. Icy dudes complain that Serena Williams is rude, not. I see like he's not talking about the empire at all. I agree. One of those dudes that's ridden. Rudeness. Yeah. And there's, there's no. And there's this is why it's horrible. There's no subtlety in these either. You agree that everything bad that happened to Serena seem is because of her being a woman or a black American, or you seem to be like, didn't deny that any any anybody's comments at all about Serena are racist or anybody's actions toward her? Like it's it's one or the other in a way we're like, it's clearly. It seems to me that she shouldn't have thrown a dance room and also the probably shouldn't have done that and whether or not one of them gets lost in the gives me a fucking stomach. The way people react on Twitter, like it's there's no subtlety there. There's no end. And what really freaks me out a little bit is in your tweet when you you in fact, were specifically talking about that point that that guy had made? I don't think it gets read that way. I think it gets read as like, why are people seeing racism and sexism where there is not. And that's why, like all the Ben Shapiro folks like it and it's and you are more subtle than that, right? Yes. Thank you. And it just gets kind of. But I will say responses to it. I, I don't know if I agree that the responses to it now there's some that are over the top, but a lot of them are just agreeing with me that the reaction to MAG row and Connors was also people people really didn't like them for when they did this stuff. And the truth is that some people will like the some people hate them, right. Some people like Serena's Alpers. Some people don't like, and, and in some cases it really is because like, did you see that Australian cartoon depicting Serena, I didn't see it. I read about it. It's just like it's, it's like it's one of those things where. You know, maybe it's an Australian. He doesn't realize like the imagery that he's using. It's it's just like a mammy throwing a tantrum with lex, super nappy hair in the air, like stereotypical face. It's like really just a horrible image and it's like, well, look like, I don't need to argue that everybody who disagrees with Serena's behavior is doing so because they're racist. But I'll I do know is that that give, you know, given the history in this country and her own personal history. It's it's not difficult to arrive at a story that the way that she ended up getting treated with it was because, but but I think you're being too easy on the side. That was frustrating me because people were just unthinkingly assuming that this particular incident that anytime somebody even gave a reasonable like expressed, reasonable frustration that Serena Williams had kind of. Of fucked over this young star who was beating her and taken away from the triumph that she should have experienced, like people who are frustrated about that, like me even people who are big, Serena fans like that. That somehow we were complicit in some overall thing. I just think that that's that's not good that people do that. It's it's not good. It happens. It happens on both both ends. And in some ways, the liberal reaction is is in in some domains even even sharper and more black and white, where the it's it's almost as if what, what you're communicating wasn't the thing that you were saying it was the fact that you were tweeting against anything against that put you on a team that they didn't see as the right team. That's you'd it. I'm saying that's how. That's how the tweets are interpreted. Sure that I agree. Like, you know, I then had interchanges with people. I know you know, or people, I know from social media like Ryan and Mike Davey, and we like were able to like, I think I communicated to them how I felt and to a lot of people like now, I'm sure there were some people that I was communicating sending signals that I definitely didn't wanna send not like people aren't capable of detecting any kind of nuance. It's an argument. It's an argument more about like the the severity of the response among some people where they'll just see it as dog whistling or whatever they call it and and it's sad because that actually means it means that you're less likely to try to gauge subtlety over Twitter, which maybe that's that's just. Is that a bad thing. I mean, put her is just like us, booze, and then like whatever whatever specific thing is being made and boot about right. And and it's just not. It's a fucking dumpster fire. I do think that this made me, so should we just feel free to say, should we just get all the intellectual dark web, like the stuff out on the table, like this incident and the Louis c. k. doing surprise set at the comedy for ten minutes, like has has made me sort of. I don't know. Like I understand now the sort of conservative reaction against. I mean. Maybe maybe by understand you mean something different? 'cause I feel like I understood it, especially being raised pretty conservative, but well, yeah, that's that's the playground that is the playground. The playground is now what worries me is that I, I've seen, I think, and we've talked about this. We see people getting pushed. In one direction or another by by praise reinforcement where like you, you know, you're by all accounts, liberal person and the liberal response, or at least I shouldn't say the liberal, the knee, the knee jerk. Response that your dog whistling somehow that you're racist gets you sort of pushed out of the left and moved a little bit more towards the right, and I. This is this is how it starts like this. This is how it begins. I know it does worry me and in some ways, the left, you know, Jesse single has been very vocal about this like to as as people on the left to not accept to be blind to the irrationality of the left and not to point it out as a member of the left is is just as bad as being a member of the right and not pointing out the rationale in the corrections on the right and both of these things are pernicious horrible effects on public discourse. And we should, you know if a Republican calls out a liberal for being too emotionally reactive about something than it's so easily dismissed. Likewise, the other way around it like we have to be the ones to call to call their own people out and say, I agree in that spirit. Can we briefly discuss the Michael Che. Oh yeah, which I thought was really interesting those the best and most interesting take on Louis CK and it was like expressing more like I didn't even understand why I was frustrated with the left's reaction to, but then after reading this just India wire piece, I realized that's it. So I think I read, I don't remember if I read the whole Michael piece but told so so summarise so the the background is Louis CK for those who does. This was like two culture war news like os ago, but. Louis c. k. for the first time since you know the New York Times article about whipping his deck out, comes on the the comedy cellar, which is what they do. If you go to the comedy cellar, you might chances are if you're there on a Friday or Saturday night, some big time comic will come on and do a surprise set and they do it for free and they're trying out new material. Last time I was there Ray Romano came on, and that was the big surprise. And Louis has done this hundred times and it's fun for the crowd. And that's just how it is. And so he came on, he did ten minutes of material, didn't acknowledge anything. Just it was just ten minutes of new material. People are clapping and then it was this weird phenomenon afterwards, EV almost every single article that came out was just appalled and shocked with his. Learned nothing. We've learned nothing. It was like the whole metoo movement had been set back because of what Louis c. k. did. But then like whenever I would talk to people, nobody would think that at all. But that was every single article that I read. It was, and I find that I found that really bizarre and I found the whole thing like he's like, oh, so I guess he doesn't have to suffer any punishment or an, I guess he doesn't have to like take any consequences for what he did. And there was something about that that I just found so bizarre. Like I think there's room for disagreement as to how much he deserves how much you know how much punishment he deserves. But the idea that he'd suffered, nothing just seemed crazy to me. And so then I read this thing from Michael j. where he says, let me get the thing up so I can just quote him. And so Michael Shay. Saturday Night, Live guy also another comic, and he says, what's interesting to me about these articles against Louis c. k. performing how important fame is to people. A lot of what I read says that CK shouldn't get to be a famous comedian anymore because to them, he's still winning. Isn't that strange? And then this is the key quote. Louis CK can be shamed, humiliated, lose millions of dollars, lose all of his projects, lose the respect of a lot of his fans and peers, and whatever else that comes with what he did. But since he can still do a comedy set for free at at a two hundred seat club a year later, it means he got off easy, and I think that's absolutely right. Like the only thing I would add to that list of the consequences that he's suffered is he has two teenage daughters that now know what he did like like imagine Bella or for me. Elisa, just knowing that. That's what I've done like as I can't think of anything worse than that, my daughter would. She's not forgiving. We're gonna have to. I might come back to restorative Justice and and and beg for or. Alter your relationship. So like I guess that's what I it was. It's this. It's this disconnect for me that he got off easy like I don't think he has got off easy, and I think if you take all those things into account, it's totally reasonable to think that after nine months plus all of that stuff that he could be working on some material at the comedy cellar. Yeah, you know, last time we talked about Louis CK when when she hit the fan, one of these were saying. Any discussion about severity and the calibrated sort of moral sanctions for different kinds of infractions like that that has gotten lost a long time ago. So there's just, you know, like Bill Cosby on the one hand and who's a who's a saints. Michael, Landon. How about that? For an old old reference. And your your bet. He was a scumbag actually. There's no way he wasn't a scumbag. Repeaters, Mr Rod or somebody who's a denials, and there's no, there's no people just they, they're inferring some sort of intent in your communication when you say something like, well, what is he's in? Sorry, did doesn't deserve the same response as what? Bill Cosby. Did that enough that statement that you are willing to talk about that is enough to to just get people say matter? Yeah. Which is dick, they know what they're doing. And don't think all lives matter only. I fell into the trap, but I'll lies includes black lives. How could you be against? There's another really interesting thing that gets to something else that we've talked about, which is the nature of his public persona and why it seems more egregious. If if Louis CK were a welder who had whipped his dick out, and then what back to welding couple of months later known would care is not famous, but even if you were famous welder, I don't know like a CEO's have engaged in horrible behavior. They and they go back to work and I don't think they get different jobs. Yeah, maybe at a different job. Right? But what the different John, you know, what's the different job? Louis CK is different club a different deal with the different movie production company. It's unclear, it's unclear what what he supposed to do other than start working at subway or something, you know, would that be? Would that fit them or. But I still think if he just took a job in the back of a writer's room, people would have less problem with it. I think there is some lay perception that both because his comedy is is a reflection of, you know, we're laughing at the insightful, truthful things about his life that's been marred somehow and that his that that it is such a public performance of that. Yeah, I think is what's getting people riled up. Here's where I want the market to really kick in. If you don't, if you don't want Louis CK to perform then don't don't support him. And I know that might sound like a cop out, but for for these situations in which. He hasn't to my knowledge been arrested or you know, like there is a real reason why we should choose what media to consume, why we should care if we want to speak about whether we think this person deserves our attention our time than just fucking ignore him. If you don't, I don't know. But so so that's I completely agree with you, but that would put you at opposed to almost every article that came out right afterwards because a lot of them were land Baston, the guy the comedy cellar owned, letting him do the set, you know. You know, I, I mean, I think that's that's contrary to the spirit in which I think this stuff should be taken care of. I, I would disagree in the sense that you should not confuse. I think this is what people think. They think this one guy with his little comedy club who let Louis CK onstage is reflective of society letting white men slide with like pretty nasty behavior toward women right now. Maybe that's the case, and, and you know, maybe there's needs to be symbolic. You know, like lynching of Louis c. k. but. To to just complain about it. I, it's not. I don't know. These just going to get more people. He's gonna just gonna get more attention. He's gotten more attention now than anything else. Like Michael Richards got just ignored. I think partly because the market will decide in a way that the people don't like, which is I think people would be I, here's what I think. So I have absolutely no problem with him performing at the seller or the someone leading him perform at the seller. I do think it might have been incumbent on him to mention what happened, which apparently he didn't do, and I would be fascinated with a Louis c. k. special. You know now he puts them up on his own site anyway. So he doesn't. I, I'd be fascinated with that. If part of it included him reckoning with what he did, it'd be much less interested if he was just going to do another sort of Louis like stand up special like part of, I think what is driving people to want to him to return is he seems like somebody that could do something interesting with the humidity. Creation and and really reckoning with the wrongs that he commit. Yeah, yeah. Maybe if he did something independently like that and really sort of combined comedy special with with sort of a soul soul searching about what happened because I don't want none of what I'm saying about the market taking care of this is to is to at all, say that that I think that. I like what he did or in fact, even that I would, you know, I don't think I would buy a movie of his now if it just if he just ignored it like and just try to get on with it, but not everybody can be Bill Cosby. Like, you know, not everybody. There has to be a way for men behaving badly to to make better to reconcile. There has to be a way in which we start allowing people to to just say like, fucked up and you don't have to like me, but I need you to hear what I did or whatever. Not just silence everybody who does wrong because I think we have a long lens. What you're saying. We have a lot. We could learn from him, say some of the most powerful testimony is of the, the sort. I did this. I used to do this. I used to be this. And now I, I did otherwise, like, you know, I don't know. There's too much we do have to be able. I know Matt, Damon got into big. Trouble, but we do have to be able to make distinctions in terms of what you know. Like while still not exonerating person or a or still acknowledging that that what they did was bad. We can't lump everybody together. We really do otherwise. I don't know. It seems like the temptation will be to exonerate everybody rather than convict everybody rock San gay, whose New York Times columnist or guest columnist. I guess she wrote something kind of outraged Louis c. k. for coming back. But then even she was very frustrated. I saw this on Twitter that people were lumping on, sorry in with Lou with Louis c. k. and Harvey Weinstein. But I think you could be similarly outraged that people are lumping Louis CK in with Harvey Weinstein because they're completely different kinds of offenses. Yeah. I mean, our our minds are really built. To to make these sharp. These very, very clear definitions but all. But that's all that saying that it takes effort and you say, is that we have to be, I think, really vigilant that were plying the same. Once we get Cal, if we are able to get calibrated, then we have to make sure that we're calibrated equivalent among whatever, you know, black guys who do something pad and women who do something bad in the same way. As long as we're vigilant about that, we have to be similarly, forgiving if a woman whips out her dick then if her strap on women don't have. Can I say there's one other element to both these stories? It was actually the thread that connected them to me, which is that at least you know, right? Following the event, the reaction from the media, the popular media seem very much at odds with the reaction of people that I know now the people that I know are liberal and resist academics. No. I mean, even, you know, in in and I think there is something to maybe the fact that for the people who were really outraged by Louis CK going up or that was an opinion that they felt confident expressing, but the people who weren't didn't feel that way, didn't feel confident expressing it, right. This is not. I'm not going full John height here at all. Listeners know my feelings about that. Yeah, but, but but I do think that that this, this is a result of the particular like the particular context in which you find yourself. I think that that the true for the right wingers but but there are powerful media outlets. I don't know. I don't know if we're just more likely to read the liberal media. I honestly don't know, but I will say this, you're so much more of a moral busybody than you ever like to admit. Hey, there was something to stories that got me. I mean, there's been a hundred other ones that I couldn't give a shit about the Sierra Jiong thing like a shed, either way like lit, everybody get all worked up, give consistent in your inconsistency. Exactly. And we and we actually what's should be really bothersome, is that the only reason that you're like that is because of some combination of your environment and your. Up? Did we even say we didn't? We didn't. On. Yeah. Go for today's episode, God. If if this even becomes an episode. To be talking about a paper by George Scher flaws for rice who I know pretty well and like a lot called, but I could be wrong about what to do. Once we realize that our moral beliefs are contingent upon a lot of cultural environmental factors, and that we have no specially good reason to think that our beliefs are true and that the people who disagree with us, their beliefs are false after having convincingly argued for own moral position, especially aft. All right. Well, let's take a break and we'll be right back. Welcome back to very bad wizards. Welcome all new idea. W listeners who have come because of Taylor's. Three because Vigipirate co-signed co-signed Tamla on Twitter. This is all just Saul just a long con to get to get listeners indoctrinate you into our left-wing identity politics. Exactly. So thank you to all our listeners. We, we really, really appreciate all the support you give us both in the form of writing to us reaching out to us all your comments, your tweets, your emails, your pace book, posts your it keeps us going and we read them all. We read them all, especially in those nights of insomnia where I can't. I can't handle doing actual work. I'd say the one exemption and and it's an exception for you. You never read Facebook messages. Just don't Facebook message. Message, especially Dave because he doesn't read them. Yeah. No, I haven't aversion to Facebook, but, but I, I don't know still trying to be young. Exactly. 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Well, you can't wait for the audio book by Tom Lurs book and write him angry emails, but but Tele friend, if you've already bought it if you liked it, I think we haven't plugged your book in a while. So I wanted forgotten. Yeah, moved on, like I care about honor or something I don't. I don't totally remember might pro con St.. Remember Ben Shapiro says rate job. No, he doesn't. That's the fucking problem. Would Ben Shapiro you're listening. How about about emoting the buck. Emoting the buck three or four more tweets that a dog whistle to our crowd and you do that the next how many more dog whistles doing. Well, let's first take care of that. That's the good thing about Sam here is doesn't require any dog whistles. All right. So today we're gonna talk about a paper by George Cher philosopher at rice as I said called, but I could be wrong. It's very simple paper. It. It reckons with two facts that are undeniable. I think although the second one needs to be argued for and we can talk about that. The first is I often disagree with others about what I'm morally ought to do. I disagree with other people about what the right moral thing to do is. And so that's number one. I think that's obviously true. The second one is the moral outlook that supports Mike current judgement about what I ought to do has been shaped by my upbringing and experiences for just about any alternative judgment. There is some different upbringing and set of experiences that would have caused me to acquire a moral outlook that would intern have supported this alternate judgement. So, you know, I'm pro choice, but there's another kind of upbringing instead of experiences that I could. Had that would have led me to be pro life and so on down the line for all these moral positions that we take in moral choices that we make. So what do we do about that? When we recognize that there that a lot of our moral beliefs and moral convictions and the things that make us act in the way we do donate to various causes vote for various candidates. They are based on things that are the result of in some way, kind of an accident of our birth and the environment that we grew up in, how can we act according to to these convictions? When when we know this when we were for mature enough to recognize this, what confidence do we have that when we're being rational when we act according to these convictions, right? These two facts seem to undermine any hope that what we're acting on is justifiable is is is defensible rationally. Rationally justifiable. It seems to undermine it at least that I could have believed something completely different through through just sheer circumstance. And this realization maybe would take the wind out of my sails when it comes to being motivated by moral beliefs. So much of our moral beliefs are about like, well, it is the right thing to do there for I should act on it if you if you're not convinced that that's that it is the right thing to do then why the fuck do it. Do you act on the conclusion that he draws? And then we'll talk about the the meat of the argument, but that it's true. We have strong reasons to doubt the truth of our moral beliefs and moral convictions because of the contingency of their origin. And yet it's still rational to act according to those convictions. Right. So let's talk about first of all, whether I think we both probably agree with the premises, but I think some other people won't maybe some of our new Ben Shapiro. This will think, no, we have the rational right. No, nothing about binge by the way. So totally fair. I know you're is retreating doing you a solid shitting. Yeah, I wanna take a setback because I think it is. It is a particular kind of problem. That's what my voice did. There. Set it like I was going through a particular kind of that is different from normal skepticism becoming. Finally about about our imperial beliefs, right? So there's a, there's a standard sort of route to skepticism through the argument that, well, how are we to be sure about the empirical world around us for all we know we're brains in vats or we're being controlled by an evil demon, that's giving us hallucinations. And therefore we can't really be certain that the world underlying reality is the same as the way we perceive it to be says, you know, yeah, fine. That's that is a class of argument, but but it's not quite like the one that he's mounting here because for one, there's convergence of if I see a pothole in the street. You probably see one to like there is the fact that we agree on basic basic perceptual facts about the world around us is enough to to just say, well, it doesn't doesn't matter so much. Look if there isn't evil, demon for brains and bats. It really has no implications. So the argument goes here for the way in which we act. We, we act on the things that we perceive this. He says, this argument is is a little bit more distressing because there isn't that level of agreement. Yeah, exactly. There's no, there's no pas. Tive evidence that we are brains in vats, but there is positive evidence that our moral beliefs are. There is out of our contingent circumstances and backgrounds and environment. It's on controversial, but it will matter later on he gets into this, it will matter what the nature of that disagreement is. And this is a, I worry that I had about about this, which is. I think a lot of times philosophers and and maybe psychologist to that. We overestimate the degree of moral disagreement talks about this a little bit, but I think that in many, many cases, moral disagreements are really Justice agreements about about facts of the matter. Right? So you might take like immigration or something, which might seem like a moral disagreement, but probably a lot of the disagreement there is over the economic and maybe you know the economic consequences of our immigration policies and the amount of crime that is either increased or decreased by. There's a lot of facts that people disagree disagree upon in, were they made aware of those facts? They might have different judgments, but still actually don't think that I think you're right. About that, but I don't think that affects his argument because we some too often don't have any necessarily good reason to think that we have our facts right either. Right? Yeah, maybe so, but, but then it becomes a difference or argument which is, is there a reliable way is you know, pissed them logically reliable way to get facts clear. And that seems like less daunting of a problem because so point is I think what you are leading to is that this uncertainty is about the only the moral disagreement, and I think we can incorporate some of the factual and certainty into this argument to. Yeah, like maybe. But I think what I want to emphasize was that the we know when we would see a scientific answer, like if we could fast forward thousand years and the claim was that the there is going to get hotter unless we do this if we could fast for two thousand years, there would be a true answer there for us. Waiting. And that doesn't seem to be the case with a moral fact it which is in general, what I wanna talk to you about, like seems to assume that what we care about our our covering moral facts. Is that right? Is this argument really sort of? Yeah, I don't think so. I think this is at bottom a paper about how do we make confident judgments about what we have reason to do. Now. I took it that what you were saying was that sometimes these moral disagreements are actually at bottom not moral disagreements, factual disagreements, which is true, but I still think they're still that question given that we don't know the facts, I sure, and we still have to make decision. We have to make a decision. Now what do we do? We can't wait a thousand years to see who is right. We have to make this now. And so now we're faced with this, is it m I just going into this blind or do I have reason to do anything or or or not? Now, I think the problem gets even more. What's the word unwieldy. Just vexing. I don't know if you if it's not even factual disagreement, but say moral disagreement at bottom. You know, maybe the abortion debate, capital punishment, right? Like the people who kill ought to die, right? It's sometimes that turns on an empirical disagreement, like when people say that the the reason to have it or not have it is because of the effect it will have on future crime? Yes. What about if you're so forget you're saying it's not about deterrence yet? Ever? It's affecting deterrence is is not the issue. The issue is that somebody who has killed, somebody does deserve to die in the state is a is right to put them to death. The state has I right, but let's just say, let's just say anybody like they deserved to die like like, right, let's say you say yes, I say no, we seem to be at a standstill, right? And part of what it. Means have a moral belief is is to think that it is true. Enter think that yours must not be true if it's contradicts mine, and that's if you had had my background, then you would be believing what I believe. Right? And so he's like, how does that not fuck us up? How does it not fuck us up? That's the case and what I what I wanna hear you say a little bit more about is that in the way that I framed a, for instance, you believe that someone who kills off to die? I don't. Is it only a problem if I think there's a just an underlying objective truth, isn't it only vaccine? If if I think that that there is a true statement there. So your idea is if we don't think there's a fact of the matter than we won't have a problem acting according to that belief. Yes, assay I like in this will get a little bit later going to say, I love chocolate ice cream and you hate it. Yeah, I'm not that I buy this like I know that the reason I like chocolate ice cream is just that I was born and raised in a particular way, my genetics or certain way and yours or not. And I have reason to act on my preference and you don't. And that doesn't seem to to toss my aesthetic judgments into into question in the same way that that they would for a moral question. But I think only because we think that moral questions really have a correct answer to. I mean, I actually think that that's a long the lines of what he's going to end up arguing in the conclusion of that moral judgments end up being just like all these other judgments that we make that a or other kinds of value judgments. That maybe we're not that committed to there being a fact of the matter. But I just to try to entertain this idea. So let's say somebody has killed our best friend and we've found the person who did it. One of us thinks we should kill them. The other one doesn't. And now one of us has the gun and has to, like, let's say, I have the gun and I have to decide whether to do it or not. You're saying screen rod handler summer. Exactly a film. Do. You're saying shit. I'm saying I should now as I am deciding whether to pull the trigger like it really matters to me whether I think that I have any good reason to think that my view is more is better founded more plausible than yours because I'm about to make big fucking decision. It's not so not like chocolate ice cream. This is a this is like, I'm going to either take a life or not take a life, and so I would want to be fairly certain. Not necessarily that my views of Jek true, but at least that it's kind of a plausible way to act under the circumstances, right? There's some level of, you know, so nuts toss around too much, but there's some sort of naive, cognitive ISM or realism or Objectivism that's like a not fully fleshed out. But in the way that people think about those moral beliefs like they think that they're true in some meaningful way, they're not just. Just saying like, no, I kind of like, I think that's also because of the gravity of the some of these decisions. You know, like deciding whether to have an abortion deciding whether this is this is these are serious to choose chocolate or. But it might be like if you were talking about, you know what career to go into, not necessarily a moral decision unless you're willing Gasco, but like, you know, it also might you might wanna think, holy shit. I, I have good reason to think that this is in that might be more parallel, right? What you're saying is we're when we're talking about moral beliefs versus just simple preferences. We might be confounding with severity or seriousness vanity of the the gravity of the judgement. So so maybe maybe we wouldn't think that it's a fact too. I mean, part of what it means to make moral claim is that it is serious. I suppose I'm trying to think of trivial moral claim like not a parking handicapped spot or something. Right. Like if I really truly believe that to be morally right, even though the consequences, I mean maybe to hang up trying to to park there that day, even though there's. A jillion of those. It seems like right. There's like twelve of them in nobody's ever. It's the most there right in front of the store, so unfair. Yeah, I don't know that listening, Ben Shapiro this. This is actually an interesting appear question. Do Lola like fairly non consequential in in the sense that they're not serious, it's not creative moral decisions. Are we less likely to. Claim that they're true? I think we're, I think we're probably less likely to call. It's true, but we're also less. I think we're definitely less likely to be bothered by the the considerations that he's pointing to. If I think that I not to park in a handicapped spot, and then I reflect that the reason I think that is because I grew up in my family, always never parked there, and it's just not gonna bother me that much that that's the result. So let's sort of I think you could disagree with, and I think maybe some of our listeners do disagree with the claim that we don't have good reason to believe that our moral beliefs are the correct ones. This is exactly remember in in our Sam when we recorded our epic sewed with Sam Harris on waking up, right? Yeah, on waking up, you know, you were expressing something like like this. I think we both feel this way we, it's, it's always good to to just be a little humble about whether or not we we're believing the right thing because we might be wrong and Sam list like, well, I'm not because it we're talking specifically about the abortion paper that we, he said, I think not. I'm not vulnerable to some of those biases and the wrong, right? Because really hit really thought it out, right? So his view, and I think a lot of people might in fact that especially listeners to this podcast who who obviously spend a lot of time thinking about moral ship, right? Yeah. And I think that Georgia has a good line about this. He says, if I'm tempted to think otherwise, if I'm tempted to think that my beliefs are really well founded, he said, I need only remind myself how often such situations arise. If I am entitled to assume that you have been less successful than me in purging. You're thinking of causally induced ehre than I must be entitled to make the same assumption about the great majority. Of others with whom I disagree about the vast numbers of intelligent and sophisticated. Vegetarians pacifists post modernist deconstructionist's, gender feminists pro-lifers proponents of partial birth. Abortion 'neutralists. Advocates of hate speech codes. Fundamentalists libertine 's rigorous and egos. I don't know to rigorous to name just view, but although it is certainly possible that I have been more successful innovating error than some of these others. This is likely on statistical grounds alone. It's strains credulity to suppose that I have been more successful than all, or even most of them. It would be something of a miracle if out of all the disputants, it was just me who got it. All right. I think that's by the way like Georgia as of slightly conservative bent as you could. Libertine. This sounds awesome. Like year one of those people disagree. Well, I am a hardcore rigorous. I honestly don't know what that is. I have no idea what George. In Europe, proponent of partial birth, abortion. Well, if you're gonna eat meat, kill babies. Care said, I care about consistency more than anything. So his point is, is that that that position that Sam Harris, maybe we're unfairly attributing Tam is is really implausible. And I think while Sam baldly stated that that's his view I an in, we didn't. We often act as though we're we're right, and we have good reason to think that we're right well in this is part of sure Shire's. And by the way, Sam has admitted to changing his mind on our. So it's not. I don't Sam that he always, but that that point that like where we to not have the belief that we hit arrived at this through some reliable process is the very point of the paper, which is that there is a reason we walk around thinking that we arrived at through the right means when whenever we do reflect on it because not thinking that would seem to really undermine like, why like why would. Did you act so seriously on a belief that you have such little faith in? Right? Why would I go to the polls and vote for candidates? If I really didn't think I had any better reason than the people who are going to vote exactly the opposite way than I am. Yeah. I mean, you might as well flip a coin in a two part system. Yeah, so, but this is different than thinking, there is no right answer, which might also deflate deflate you like you might. You might go into it thinking like, well, there, no moral like moral anymore. Claim is ridiculous to begin with. So I have like this is just like missing. I like ice cream. So fuck you a minute vote for the NRA or whatever this is. This is an argument that would undermine somebody who who walks around thinking that they have good reason tact. Yes, I take it most people. I mean, so I don't know if this is part of the conclusion or this is, you know, if you have a judgment. That's not necessarily a moral judgment, but say judgment about what movie to go see or something like that between a bunch of movies reflecting on the causal. Now that doesn't work as well. Because in that case, even if your your judgment about what movie to see is, is the result of your contingent history. It's still your contingent history? Yes, maybe maybe that's what he says about moral beliefs, right? So yeah, that gets us that, but, but I very much think that things like aesthetic judgments it is not. It is not that much of a difficulty that that these contingent facts gave rise. The fact that I was born and raised in the time place that I do. I know that's why like rap music, like there's no getting around that. That's why came to enjoy rap music and. It's it would be weird for me to say everybody ought to like rap music at the expense of other forms of music because it's not. It's not at all tied to my expression of liking music. So what he what he wants to do is block the inference from, I have no good reason to believe that my own moral judgments are more likely to be justified or true than those of innumerable others who disagree with me so block the inference from that too. I cannot rationally base my actions on my own moral judgments, right? That's the thing that he's he does at the end of the paper. He says, I need to demonstrate that rational for me to base my actions on my own moral judgments. Not just because I think that I have really strong reasons for believing that the judgments are justified or true. But rather the analogy is to any other former practical liberation where you might have equivalent reason to doubt the rationality of at least of the process by which you've got those beliefs, but you you nonetheless still act on the right taken example. I don't know if this is moral, but I think it might be like that what we talked about last time which got some debate unread it sub rant. It, you know whether I should've used the n. word or not. Right, right. And that's a question that you know in the end, I determined that I should say it, but bleep it out. I know that there are people there. Plenty of people who disagree with that. And so the question is knowing that there are plenty of people who disagree knowing that I don't have any great reason to think that my view on it is more well-founded or justified than the people who disagree with me. Do I have good reason to still. Go ahead and do it. And George shirts says, yes, I do. Yeah. Simply because it's my, it's, they're still might even though I might not be as justified, it's still my reasons and my background and so that justifies or that makes it rational for me to act according to that. Right? So this, this is the the step that they confused me a little bit, but it's clear. It became clear when you realize that the the question that he starting with is simply that of, is it rational to act on your beliefs. Which which makes sense. I think in the way that you said it, the fact that they are my beliefs. Motivating me to act. It's not irrational to act on them. However, what it's sound, what the paper sounded like it was gonna do offer a way out of actually endorsing those beliefs as rationally justified. So because what he's saying basically is well, look like to me, became clear said, like what option like, what would be your other option to act opposite way like that would be really weird. Right? It would be really weird if you said like I grew up believing in pro choice, and now that I have come to doubt whether or not that process was a reliable one at acquiring moral truth in that other people who believe the opposite of me might have the exact same sort of sense of its rightness and in both cases, it's just an accident of our upbringing. It would be extra irrational for me to then just flip. My my decision, right? That doesn't make any sense at all. The only thing we have some way, the way I read the argument is the only thing we have to go on our own moral beliefs, so it's not irrational to go on them. It's still leaves me with some skepticism about my moral beliefs. So, but I mean, again, think about what your other options are. You could flip a coin. Do I have an abortion or not other live option that he considers is okay. Maybe I just act according to my non moral beliefs and anytime I just completely disregard my moral beliefs and only act according to non moral beliefs. And that's where he says those. They're not different. Really, you know, the and maybe this is a place to press to press the argument. But he says, look, you don't have any better reason to believe, you know, you're non moral value judgments. Than your moral value judgments. You don't have any better reason to believe they're justified. So I'm willing to grant that that given if you do believe that the the veracity, whatever the rightness of your moral beliefs is undermined by by the contingent nature. I'm convinced that it's still rational to act on them. But what I'm not convinced about is that. That this is at the same level of uncontroversial rationality of acting on your say, aesthetic judgments. So it just really is something completely like it is not intrinsic to my aesthetic judgment that it that baby be objectively right in a way that it is seems to be for my moral judgment and importantly, because and I think this is one of the reasons that that maybe he gets away with this limited argument. One of the one of the differences is that my moral beliefs are generally not just about what I ought to do, but about what everybody else ought to do, and they're. It seems to me to be really important that I'm believing the right thing because my moral actions don't just influence my deliberations for action. They influence my desire to influence my desire to change. The behaviors of others were acting wrongly, and I think that it given these two arguments about disagreement and about the contingent nature of our beliefs. It doesn't seem rational to try to convince somebody else of the moral truth of my position. Right? Yeah. No, I completely get it. So one sort of. Conclusion you might draw from this is okay if it's a totally if it's a personal decision that I have to make about my own conduct will. Yeah, I gotta just act according to what I think is right at the time and but when it comes to condemning other people for their moral beliefs or when it comes to trying to persuade or in some cases, compel other people to act according to my moral beliefs I need. I better be convinced my judgments I are more well-justified than competing judge. Right, exactly. So I, I don't think he tackles that alternative or that question too well, but I think they're the, there's the grist for that by saying, okay, but we do. You still have to have laws, and we do still have to vote for those laws, and we do still engage in blaming and praising behavior. And so again, what is your alternative? You could be completely laissez faire, but now you're by doing that you're taking a moral position to. Yeah, but that's why I think it's important because because of that social nature of these moral beliefs in the desire to regulate everyone else, I think it is important to have to not just sort of accept the premise be that these beliefs are completely contingent, but to actually try to figure out a process by which we rang a acquire things that might be. I don't wanna say true because I think that that's part of what makes this argument problematic to begin with. I think that in this is going to be very, very poorly fleshed out, and we're already been recording for too long, but. I think something like. Morality, moral rules and moral beliefs are really about finding away to live with other agents in the world who have intentions, desires, hopes, and beliefs in a way that that can make everybody live in some functional harmony. And there is no. There just is no objective facts about whether something is right or wrong, including whether or not it's right or wrong to. To kill somebody who's killed someone, you love like that. I think it is. It is something that is worked out between people living in a society as to what is the best way of getting together in this -ociety. And I know it sounds like a relativistic are even, but I don't think so. I think that there is a reliable way in which like you can talk to people and arrive at things that are fair and agreed upon without having to give up whether or not there is a right a better or worse way of of making moral judgments. But without having to think that these like we have to just like if we dig deep enough, we'll find the ultimate moral rules. Right? You are, you know, you might think of society. I know a lot of people do think of society that way really morality at bottom is just how we supposed to set up a society so that we can all get along in the best possible way. I, I think though that the problem comes. When they're still going to be all these decisions like do support -firmative action policies or where it eat, you know, maybe you have to set a policy and your department or your you know about whether to. Give favor to more diverse candidates. You're going to have to go by what you believe without being certain that what you believe is either is well-founded on that and you just there's no way out of that. I don't. Yeah, yeah. I actually like in this discussion, I think something there I have a little bit more clarity about what about what I think about this situation, which is that I think it gets us into trouble to think that there is a right or wrong answer to say earned of action that people just are. They don't get it or they do get it right. And and I think that that having a bit of humility about what right might be, including the empirical, you know the empirical objectives as well as concerns about Justice. If if we released a little bit the stubbornness and thinking that there was a, you know, once we found the secret code of all that is right and true in moral that it would give us the. Answer to affirmative action. We just admit that, hey, there is no true. Like in fact, in some situations, it seems very appropriate in some situations, it might not be appropriate for either empirical concerns, our concerns about Justice, and the only way to get around it sometimes is to say, well, look like we're gonna slightly value. This thing in the hopes that it will bring about this thing, but, but I am open to reevaluating and saying, this should didn't work or this was wrong. And I think that that attitude can give us progress, but the attitude that there is a right thing or a wrong thing, we'll just all it will do is keep us fighting. Yeah, I agree. And it's it's a point that exude from the paper, which is that we should have humility. About our moral beliefs and we should be humble when we enter moral debates with other people, we should recognize the contingency of our beliefs and the the the way in which that gives us reason to doubt their truth or doubt whether they're justified in comparison to the people were debating with. He doesn't really say that in the paper though he kind of you would get from the paper that just act like you believe it's true. You know, chocolate ice cream embrace chocolate ice cream. Now, what's funny is knowing George, he is. He has a lot of humility as a person when he enters these debates. I, I, I have moral disagreements with him and he's one of the most productive people have moral disagreements because he really so I think he has internal. Maybe he's internalize it so much that he doesn't think it needs to be seven the paper, but I think it definitely is the conclusion that you would naturally draw from what he's arguing. Yeah. And you know, like to bring it back to our discussion, say of Louis CK for instance, like what? What I don't think follows from this is that you would fail to condemn, say the initial actions, kindergarten in trouble. I actually don't think that's what's going on at all right. So I think that it's it would be a failure. It would be wrong to say that what this leads us to is an inability to defend any moral claim. And I think that one of the problems is that you know the the term moral and all that it means encompasses so many different beliefs, but some of those beliefs actually passed the test of widespread agreement. And I think most people would think that what's not make it about Louis CK, but just like something like rape, that's just wrong. What's debate is what to do about it. That's a more complicated issue, like the role of forgiveness or the role of Justice. Those are the ones that there might be less agreement about, and those are the ones that we should be more humble about. I don't need to be humble about murder, for instance, right? You know, but I and so, but this is exactly what we're often not humble about. One of the things that made me wanna talk about Louis CK was seeing something on vox that said, like what. Men don't get about the Louis c. k. thing. So right there, you're just making it about, and it was a by guy to which makes it kind of x-ray Rable like what men like this guy has figured it out, but other men just don't get it. The implication there is there isn't room for reasonable disagreement on this on an issue like that. You know, the timing of him doing a set at the comedy cellar to not. Take a more humble attitude just seems not only counterproductive, but also just a that level of just self-deception about how obviously right you are. Yeah, and I think that there is sometimes a little hand waving because you you start and by the way, I think we're just particularly sensitive to the the left-leaning those of certainty because those people we list to follow. But you know, I was on, I was following Twitter debate about this controversy in comic books. That's just ridiculous. Just happened upon feed where it was just a bunch of like really, really, really harsh misogynists said whatever who are just like, no, we're right. Like you're just dumb too. Of course, we're always going to be harder and the people that that we're exposed to. Yeah, it it's. But I think that this gets to the heart of it. There's a little bit of a bayton switch when you, there's a thing that we should have widespread agreement about, which is what he did was wrong. And you talking about the consequences in a nuanced way indicates to me that you just don't get that it's wrong. And that's not in fact what's going on. I think that by moralizing, like by by treating some of the things that for which there is nuance and widespread disagreement about facts about values by treating them the same way in which we treat things for which there is widespread agreement by like by lumping them all together as moral claims and saying, there is a truth or falsity to it like you don't. You don't. You wouldn't think the murderers. Okay. You wouldn't think the rape is. Okay. How can you think that Louis CK performing is okay. There's, whereas like, no, like we've made it a sort of a category mistake by calling these all moral claims. Some of them are some of them just have the property of widespread endorsement and most most societies throughout most of history have agreed that certain things are just wrong. There are some things that are just too fucking complicated, but you have to. Really work out as people living in a society. But I guess so my point is when there is a case like this where there's widespread disagreement and yet you still have a strong opinion about it. What we're not good at. I don't know we ever were, but we're certainly not today. It seems like is acknowledging that we that that people who disagree with those are not obviously wrong or immoral and that as strongly as we feel about it, it we does. The title of the paper says, we could be wrong. We really could be rung. I think, for those kinds of debates and it's precisely the ones where there's widespread disagreements because it really just doesn't cause it's not a problem when there's why. If we all agree, then whether we're right or wrong, doesn't matter because we're going to do it, but it when we don't agree that that that that level of humility hopefully could a could allow for respectful debate and progress between two sides coming to understand each other. So let me ask you this maybe as a way of wrapping up when you responded to that tweet and you said this is bullshit. Total push? Yeah. Where were you intending to indicate a moral claim with certainty? So one thing, a takeaway as people need to show more humility and they'll realize I'm right about Serena and Louis CK. I fear that that's the way that these arguments. You should be humbled your beliefs about the thing. No, your humility will eliminate that. Obvious truth of what I'm saying. Okay. Why did I do it? I think I did it. It was football. First NFL Sunday had a few drinks. This had been really bothering me. This has been dogging did it? I mean, did you really have certainty in your moral claim? Well, it was more of an empirical claim that I was writing. Yeah. So it wasn't a moral claim. It which gets us to this. I think there's a bayton switch about when you about like, well, you're making a moral claim even though you know it was an statement that there was a double standard in the fans media response to Serena versus Mandarin Connors, but you're right that it was a morally. Like, I, you know, you're sending spit. That's what's so fucked up about this. Like just a basic factual disagreement years, ending out moral signals, like not. The heart of what's wrong with it. That's that's hard. Dot to be moral discourse in in that setting in tweets on Twitter? Yeah. Ice cream flavors should all just be about ice cream flavors, and there was a time where people tweet out like they're like what they had for lunch, and then it was joke about Twitter. Those were the days. Yeah. Now it's like. It's getting dachshund my life threatened. Remember when we used the tweet about breakfast. I still, I maintain that death threats like aren't really death threats. There's no threat of death. I, I have, no. Well, I do have opinions. You're not saying that it's inconceivable that somebody could issue real threat because I m saying that empirically, empirically that those things are they're not actually about going to kill you, right, but but nonetheless they are threatening. And so you might just think that it's a level of threatening that I don't accept, but you know, like. Well, this is this is totally different issue, so we're not gonna. This is going to get cut out, but like there is this escalation of what counts as a threat and what counts is threats to your safety? And although I, I really do feel like you would be. Like you would be seeing red if somebody tweeted out a death threat to your daughter? Totally. Yeah. Kind of somebody gets the first Amazon review. Yeah, right. And so I don't think that you need to empirically believe that there's a connection between you getting killed by. I'm just saying like, this is something that my Ben Shapiro followers no more about do, but like this idea that people start to use the term violence and safety in ways that sort of dilute what those words mean to a point where it's hard to. And again, this becomes this, this sort of black white issue where where then the opposing viewpoint means you shouldn't be bothered by these anything that anybody says ever. Yeah, I think that that's like that's the wrong thing like I was. I was bothered by that Masan review, like. But send a couple of hard pipe pitting brother. I had a quote public, just say the word beep at. All right. Well, thanks for those. If this ever comes out, which is. I think unlikely. Thanks for listening. This long. Yeah, join us next time. Man. Plan. Very. Just to say that with it.
Very Bad Wizards
Aired Last week 32:26
Australian Open Day 2 - Mind Over Matter For Halep; Williams Sisters Impress; Dysfunctional Australian Tennis
Hi, I'm John McEnroe's board. This is Martina Navratilova. I'm Mats Wilander. I'm stunned ROY Rinker. Am Lleyton Hewitt. I'm Andy Murray. And you're listening to the tennis podcast. Well, I think it's fair to say that tonight is not being quite the emotional journey that last night was, but it is still being a an intriguing day of tennis here. The Australian Open day to on the tennis podcast brought here in association with ten agai. I'm David law from BBC radio, I'm joined by Catherine Medicare, one take Whitaker from your sports heyday. She three take Whiskas tonight. But to these takes down to some obsolete choice numb in background. Well, well, saved their Catharine. Can you imagine what my tolerance level TS is? I imagine it's eleven pm. Not enough sleep. Davis news. Yes. I sort of gathering that. However. The day is being interesting customers here. Grad masses here, grandma smarting, he's happy enough. But then he's my age. So. Can witness the three previous takes of me saying something other than to we had to cut folks. Which is fine. Yes, I'd like to start the day by talking about the world number-one Simona hallowed because I feel six seven I think it was six four six two victory over Kaya Canetti the woman that beat her at the US open just socked her off the call to the US. And I think that that was a major triumph of mine. Never mattress oversea. She's a great tennis players. Well, she played really good tennis. But mentally that was that was one of the strongest performances I've seen from span out of me. And obviously we say many of them most specifically the French Open final last year. But this was a really good performance on every level in that way. Yeah. I just want to. We we didn't set that. Oh, no. On on reached on my three takes a promo. But before that, I was being dismay. Yeah. Just of the court and. And everything she said emphasize, reiterated exactly what David which is. She she kept me. She was delighted she walked into the little infused just of the side of the court there. And she was she was texting away. Love know who she was texting. But felt like that would have been an inappropriate first question. But yes, she was smiling at her phone, very politely. She said sorry sorry. I just need to send this. She had a really big grin on face. But she I think in all three the questions on us to in all three the onces. She referenced how tough she found it physically, and how her body was tired, and she felt tired, which I find interesting for first month to the Australian Open, you know, she's very AP about the fact that she's not quite where she wants to be as Matt said she lost five matches on the bounds before this tournament. She openly would prefer that. She was still with Darren K hill. You know, she's it's it's not her choice for for that relationship to be on hold. I think is what they call in. So yes, she found tonight for probably combination of reasons clearly very draining and exactly say, obviously, a total triumph of mind. Matter because well, I know he thinking given what happened in New York it set down this. You must have just been thinking. This is going to happen over again. And she's gonna sit yet. She's isn't shape. It's it's a no, it's cliche. But I really believed it from her just now it is much at a time. This troll as well. I mean, how can it not be who's it? She's second round fair, Kenan who's the American. Yeah. Was very good in the Fed Cup final and then won Hobart. Sweet crikey. And that's to play third round Venus Williams, she gets past that. That was a great win for Venus. Down. Business Casey and business Q is serving for the match five four as well. So you know, I mean second-set didn't really see that particular game. So I don't know where the business Q contributed to that to losing her own serve so to speak, but I don't know Venus Williams Shipman she turns thirty nine years of age in June and Harappa tight for the game. He's just still is. As much as it ever was. And and she's she just find so hard to to dig out a win from six seven four five down. I think some monumental achievement radio against a very good plan. And personally, I'm pleased that she seems to be back on form again this year last she did did. But it was actually it wasn't really. It wasn't really a story that was talked about that much. I think people have so much respect for her. And they kind of expect maybe to to not be performing twenty seventy. She doesn't kill to. She doesn't doesn't that reason to? I'm sure would be we'd be shouting if he were head. That's another reason she presses and get the coverage she she might otherwise deserve. But I I can't even remember who it was. But it's I mean, it doesn't really matter who it was because it could have been lots of people, but some sort of casual chitchat, but Venus Williams the other day. United saying, you know, what she's still doing out the she the dodgy lessees wasn't. She just quit. You know? She's got nothing better to do that live really Royal surprise. And it really made me, you know, get a glimpse into UAE Venus Williams feels so damn irritated with the question with that question. What my fate be out, the, you know, as well intention does that can be doesn't necessarily come with his connotations. But I can understand why they were Tate's. And she has to explain why she stood out here. I would if I could be winning grandson is much is I would be it'd be making you. That's what I was doing say host to be so much better. Yeah. I it. It was a glimpse. I made me to sympathize a little bit with her just not even wanting to face those questions. Kissed to have to dignify them with the response. She she go. She gave a very if me and Venus Williams both. I'm not clear take another wasn't going to be held boggles. Serena Williams today, I thought Venus was I gave a nice interview on goal to really I mean, she was sunny Indians view on court. I mean, she she has got a, you know, you can't be selling selling gauging. And when she can be interested or bothered, really? Anyway, I suppose maybe the questions apart of that to Serena Williams was in fantastic form today. I mean, she just road onto the court. Wearing waterproofs for some reason. Yeah. I didn't really. I mean, look, I'm not in a position to talk fashion about anybody. But I didn't understand why why anybody would be wearing that was proved jacket in thirty seven degrees. Because that's what it looks. Right. Anyway, thirty two minutes later, she was leading six three love and I'm not exaggerating literally thirty two minutes, the first eighteen minutes and a believe there was a stage in the point later on. I I think it was five love where Tatyana Maria was at seven percent. I serve. Not ideal. Just. The locker room conversation. Make sure you. Yeah. I mean I in. The fly up stops. They may changes. Don't look don't look Tatyana. They were both mothers, which which is not necessarily. Always if night in the way that perhaps it is big up. But the Serena mentioned after the match that the the children, I think it's both daughters friends friends. Know eve any just recovered from your barrows. Which might send you over the edge. Tatyana Maria has fewer to it to fewer Instagram followers. Twitter Twitter followers than Serena Williams is daughter's doll. Guys, just playing nine. It's plain mean to Doug that starts. No. You didn't dig it up. They start that up on TV. Is a fantastic stat. But host feel terribly sorry. Tetiana Maria anyway, not to worry Williams. I oversee she wasn't that tested today. But she really does look on it isn't she looks in a great mental space for the. But just the weird thing for me is that she did not do a pre event press conference at all she didn't do one. She's the only player who didn't do a previous press. And she basically told them I'm not gonna do believe it's only requirement for the top seeds, which she's not say, what is she in the world. She's so she's got that is Perot gated. And I mean, I didn't actually get chance to get a press conference today. But I mean, again, I I can understand it from her perspective from two standpoints one is. Plays have been around. This long must be just a bit sick of that element to the can understand if they are at least, you know, they're just wanna play the game. The other thing is obviously the last time people spoke at length would been just after she'd been involved in in there really uncomfortable incidents of which he was a big part, and certainly at least partially full may be more than partially fulsome the US open and finals, so. I just feel as though she's in a good place. I know it's easy to save two six six two and how much can you read into that? But I think she means business. I think she's going to be a now I've picked to win the title. But I think she would not have a down. If she got that farthest time the way she didn't those two other finals, it was almost she'd seen what shampoo overdid yesterday winning six six seven. She thought I wanna pay that get me some harriett dog. Yes. This was a very different type of this way. Yeah. Great. And also. Yeah. More complex plan than Harry on serve. No. That was a joke fakes making me feel much better about my first. Did the whole coming to press thing? It's. It is like the the the these plays and an an I think applies moved to the ones that have sort of stratospheric celebrity. They they're able to construct these alternate realities on the, you know, I think Serena's constructed constructed, you know, in a mind this alternate reality were she doesn't even have questions to own ser about the US apron. I think whatever your your view on all it's hard to argue that there aren't questions to be to be put to her to the the deserve explanation. And I think that yes, she she lives in a world. And you know, we we hear about what it's like the CPA famous people, you know, that. Fiber employed by Serena Williams, I would necessarily be telling. Do things differently. And I think, you know, sorry, just it's been element of that Sharapova over the past couple of years almost this indignant even having to answer the questions about wonder whether celebrity or a wonder whether I think it might be more about being the champion. For some of these people anywhere. And look, I'm sure people would say well, hold on Roger Federer's champion Roger Federer celebrity. Everybody's different. But these champions have an ability to block things out, and and and. And be selective about what they think about in a way that I can only imagine a wish I could be that simple. Kind of different my describing. An alternate reality constructed, but. Would in in her mind fuel Serena Williams, she got to gain from putting yourself in the firing questions. Nothing. Shame is I I think it's a ashamed for more perspectives because I think. She's got a huge amount to gain really perspective. No. I think that's a shame. She didn't as well. I think it would have been better for her alternately if she had she doesn't care, so doesn't suppose it doesn't matter. If you don't care. What else is happening today of no to we senior hundred Konta we saw I I mean, that's that was twelve hours ago when we were coming tainting on that. A big win for her. Releasing sort of. She wasn't. She doesn't really willing to that. But you know, we know what? Unconcious like in terms of seven six mental four six seven six, and it was one of those. Now, we were a real old job trying to work out. What do you call the champions tiebreak? Do you call it a super tiebreak g call ameri- Tom Brady, call I ten point time. Let's because just let you data with the champions that it was the champion story because it was originally work superstar definitely not all my votes against super super extended. I mean, you know. Tiebreak did read one said some somebody said today the elongated. Yeah. That's going into marketing camera loans, attracted whatever they are. Tennis podcast. What should we call the third set or fifth set tiebreak of your straighten at new this year? There was one today. The beats his fellow Frenchman unbear- most simply go. Jeremy short, he's on the potential up settler against Ferencvaros. Mesa better night. Good today. Yeah. And then he described himself as having the perfect body to Jim Courier place t perfection. Yeah. Very much. Went off with a straight face. He said, but I thought I thought he he was good value night into. Certainly good value. When when written down, I just read a read on Twitter. Yes, any provided. Good valley. I tell you who wasn't good today was curious. Now, he he apparently had some sort of nape problem after about eight games. And then he proceeded to win about said knee problem for the next hour off. I I didn't listen to all of his press Coen's, but he lost in straight sets to millers ranch. And he just looked sorry for himself throughout the whole match to me. Yeah. He said impressed. The he's never seen serving like it for Medo surroundings and certainly meals vanished. It's well, but he said mitt that his return game just really wasn't up to he said better players will to get in a block neutralize that serve. I just can't do it didn't seem express any desire to once be able to do it. Possible ranking sixty seven sixty seven crooked could could be worse depending on other. That's that's is very. Has really come backwards as they Tanaz economic has won the first set today. Seven five he qualified and came through. And when the I seven five today and then to retire with yet another injury. He basically he pulled a muscle in his pectoral muscle or something like that. And he just couldn't serve anymore and. I read his press cones transcript tax afterwards. And there was a he was asked about the comments of Bernard Tomic yesterday, which we didn't get chance to cover because of all the news and sort of got lost a little bit in the mix then come out again today, but Bernard Tomic who said some really inflammatory stuff about like here. It's and questioning one on the tour and playing doubles. And that he's got he's got convicted interests being a manager. I think we might have touched on it of pies like extent or and implies of that ilk. Just got me thinking how dysfunctional is Australian tennis and how how long it has been like this because I go back to win Hewitt was eighteen years of age and loggerheads with with your stray, leeann public absolute mean now, he's a good relationship with they've grown to to appreciate him and his and his achievements, etc. For a long long time. If you weren't Pat Rafter, you weren't good enough in the eyes of a lot of people. And and it seems don't and I am trying to work out where it is the fault line. Is it the players blame the media? The media say well, the players have a problem. The the the public just don't seem to like a lot of their players Philipoussis zoo, Catherine, I know a little bit. And I think he's really nice bloke. I mean, he put his foot in it her horribly throughout his career and a lot of occasions, but a nice enough bloke. And now we have the situation. I mean, it seems hard to believe that you interview trembling you interviewed Davis Cup Kriton against Australia. You interviewed that Davis Cup. Team Hewitt captaining Tomek Kakinada case, and it was a really nice atmosphere between the more wasn't there. Now, get along at all. I have to say, I'm I'm surprised to see cooking Arcus involved embroiled in all he was asked with race it in. In it. It's particularly controversial say that obviously curious Benneteau t people very capable probably fully out with pretty much. Anyone? In the right circumstances. But. I'm just surprised, but I don't know. Whether he's involved, I'm pretty in the the. As I understand it. And I feel pretty pretty confident this this kind of two factions this cooking Arcus carriers and Tomic he will very much unto Hugh it. And there is no and John millman that they're very good, friends and. Very much involved with letting you see says shows a manager with lighten and all of that. But it is an incredibly divided seen in Australian tennis and Benneteau make I mean. Yeah. Curious that bit a bit less, but office just I mean and also doesn't doesn't need this grow. Got to contend with these twenty two and he eases eases injury struck as any thirty two year old. I mean, he is had the Detroit to stay when he was asked about it. He just said on the answer any questions about that. So he shut that down immediately side. I mean, he did not feel to it. But it's a weird situation into that. Because it's just it is weird. What what summertime do you think this is why is getting such a big sort of backing here? I think there's a number of things I think Alex all fits for for the vast majority of Australian he's full hearted. He's he's a young ladies a nice guy. He tried his heart. Quite clearly, and he hasn't let anybody down. Yes. You know? He's the right balance of. If swagger, and and humility is the blue boy next door. Oh, no, no. I don't think he's cookie cutter in. Does he have playboys? I just don't think he's quite square is that is bitten slightly more edge to it. He say I mean, the after emerging the final in Sydney on Saturday winning the Marlins news today they killed him. He to the day. Deneen on Monday and any. Yeah. I mean, I know they've not offered any leniency with with stretching class at played up until say come no expressed this assertion that Monday. But they they can they they can expose discretion in when they put them, and he certainly think that they would elect to do that with with their own players. And they certainly didn't know tennis champ. Look good today. It is quietly. There was one moment when he's two sets and five four up seven for the national dropped his against Pablo and whose lovely plug anyway, but apart from that was a lot better. He hadn't double IT's last season of. But again, he hit two or three today, which is much better fifty winners things and flew little bit under the radar as well. Despite the fact that we talk about in. Hey, yes, he was on a suicide cool. But. That thing and get three to that joke. He can saw that claim flashy and fun. He also today. Matt sorry. He will sold today who else on court number twenty s who was trend co twenty because math. You may remember. Well, I mean, how about the train line a train going straight past the call centers offense. I was there. We to Marito Evans. Evans ruling yesterday about centers a photo of his vantage point, this is a disgrace from the front row of the spirit of the seats. And you couldn't actually see a court couldn't I was I was hoping to get on court twenties actually end of Gotham fan where the player who were about to talk about was coming on next. But I thought oh. Minute next. Big thing. I'll go watch shell Seuss and GRA pay fifth set a good moment to the from the from was free on this. Call sit down there. I sat down, and you cannot see the call from the. Oh, you any of it? Literally. None of it. All you can see it's a black fence you and then heads bobbing above it, occasionally the ball. That's not even restricted view. You know, you get pillar. I sat down and started a trend that bins out. Follow means sitting down and people were like, oh, this isn't very good. Is it? I mean Irish thing for the just because I knew I was moving on. And I thought it was gonna laugh, and I wanted to send you the paycheck people were getting quite upset about it. Just to just to enliven us to why making such an F F bay in this position. I mean, look to get his seat before anybody else did for the Victoria Cosmo's because MOVA day, right? What's the name issue? Oria 'cause mauve. Okay. Who matters got in his quarterfinals? Now. Learn she's ranked forty eight in the world, and she she reached the final of what semi fun and Oakland semifinal so comply. She's twenty years old. She's going places. Parents mascot in his court of final. So anyway, obviously offi goes loyalism to go and find out whether she's gonna do improv. She promptly loses the first. And there's lots of panic on our what's out group. However, she turns around there. Let's tell us a little bit. Obviously Matt's going to be writing. Right. Yes. He's two diaries day to Melbourne diners. Give it a bigger soul than you'll find out if the you need to know about rhetorical loads. More just just read it is all I say, but just a little bit. What do we think? Now that you've. Shays? Powerful. She a risk taker and she's gonna use. She's up against a leanness for Selena who just wallop somebody six two six love today. I think something like that. Yeah. But no, it was it was a relief that she won. And it doesn't keep this little intrigue going fascinating. Can't wait. Right. What we got tomorrow. Let's find out what the order pay looks like tomorrow Fedor in the day in day. Yes. Against dangerous, Dan Evans, that's happening. Third match on Rod Laver Rena not before two pm local time, there's a policy that wounded, and this is this is clutching, Dan, Evans, stroz, you're going back. I'm just saying if you down Evans. When was the last time you saw federal play in extreme intoxicating, heat war. John millman when when we actually saw Roger Federer, STAN Evans, and I was looking for rays of sunlight in a potentially quite bleak. Horizon. I would think you know, that might be one likes the heat this Neil. I have to say I mean, it doesn't like it. Does he loves it doesn't say? Today demanding paracetemol from the empire. I mean, that's you know, he likes to have a wind. It's not even gonna be that hawks. Mike. It's gonna be twenty eight degrees celsius tomorrow, not enough to discombobulated career twenty degrees on that before tomorrow. He deals with it. Well, but any lights key loves it on day? He was fine. I've never seen him lose in the heat Sloan Stevens opens Reno correct clip that I've said it tomorrow Bush's Stevens his opponent, then it's Ashbury against Wang fan. Then Dan Evans against Roger Federer evening session is coverage had up Meyer. And then the Dow against Epton we've also got Katie Boulter plane tomorrow on the not Tyson's arena, the Melbourne arena after conservation against and that's a good match against oh. One watch that. And then it's Chile against Donald followed by Boulter against sampling. What do we think any chance for Katie Boulter? I don't think. So I think SAPA Lank is going to move around much was as we discussed very impressive capability yesterday. But I have movement is a weakness, and I think will be exposed. She's good at the angles Blanca, she's good at getting people on the move. And if it comes to first strike tennis. I mean back settling Caribbeans almost one. Pretty much bit worried about Griego Dimitrov against pamphlet Cuevas. I'll leave out there. This has been the tennis podcast. I'm gonna try not to think about it to one. No, also, incidentally, just caught level. What Niamey Sarka from our country box is an awesome sight. She had had a twenty five straight rally with macular. Nets Lynette was trying to heart out playing beautiful tennis. And almost as suddenly in the last two groundstrokes the rally also could just about enough of this. And just boom. And then it's over and the woman's power is extraordinarily the physicality. She has a plan. Anyway, Jovic one is well Jovic one straight-sets and quite easily Kanus curry almost lost. Ooh. Tried his best sellers. Canine security, beat Crump did actually severe cry. Couldn't couldn't either grip the racquet or war. He got the trainer I was watching on meat. So trying to interpreting them to interpret the mime of Qassim Serrano pronounce of Poland peninsula spell. Yeah. He just won the first he sets against some very. Billion tennis so impressive. And the the the train is crash in front of him. And I saw him point two four different parts of his body. And I still. Right. Okay. Well, let's come back tomorrow. We might get out of here before midnight tonight, folks, we're gonna go and rest up. We'll be back with more tennis podcast throughout the Australian Open read grad, Matt's, Melbourne diary. It is a good rate promise, you tennis, podcast dot net. And if you've enjoyed the show tell people that, you know, you mate shift family anybody likes tennis, get him down in the show, and we'll be back again tomorrow, we are executive produced by tennis balls dot com. Our mascot is real the dog. I'm having to get used to saying real dog because he's our new mascot because folks, we are officially kick-started. Thanks to you over to ask you for any that anymore. Not even cheese boards for Katherine, not even too busy too. Busy law. We're off cinema. Zimmer?
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