5 Episode results for "Searcy Lancaster"
"From WHYY in Philadelphia. I'm Terry gross with fresh air today. Henry Winkler he won an EMMY for his performance on the HBO dark comedy series berry as a self-important acting teacher who urges his students to dig deep and draw on their past. You know, I use my pass all the time in my work. If I want pure sorrow, I call Princess Diana's death or the day that my dad fell off the roof when I was a kid. Ca punk. Barry is no in its second season Winkler became famous for his role on happy days as the fonz a guy, so cool. He could attract any woman with just a snap of his fingers. Never actually snap your finger in real life. Women will break it off. And John powers considers why game of thrones has come to define our era. The final season starts Sunday. Support for this podcast comes from the Neubauer family foundation, supporting WHYY's, fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation when Henry Winkler accepted his EMMY award last September for his performance in the HBO dark comedy series berry. He said, I only have thirty seven seconds. I wrote this forty-three years ago. The forty three years ago is a reference to when he became known for his role on happy days as Arthur Herbert funds Ereli, aka Fonzie, aka the fonz a network sitcom version of a cool guy with slicked back hair, a motorcycle and a leather jacket who could attract girls with a snap of his fingers since then he's been in movies and TV shows, including recurring roles and parks and recreation and arrested development in Barry, which is now in its second season. And just got renewed for third winter plays, gene Cousteau, a self important acting teacher who sees himself as a wise, experienced mentor. One of his students berry is played by Bill Hader, an alum of Saturday Night Live who co created the series gene tries to get his students to draw on their emotional truths. But berry is hiding his truth. He's a veteran who fought in Afghanistan and after returning home, use the skills, he learned to become. A hitman. He first came to the acting class on assignment to kill one of the students. Someone else ended up taking care of that. But berry becomes increasingly drawn to acting and wants to stay in the class and changes life. Here's a scene from last Sunday's episode genus having his students tell their own stories for show. He's putting together. Barry, reluctantly reveals a little bowed himself and tells the story of the first time he shot and killed someone in Afghanistan. Gene is so moved by Barry story, and so unaware of what Barry is still hiding. He tries to convince berry to tell the Afghans STAN story onstage, but Barry tries to get out of having to do it. Here's Henry Winkler is gene coup. Snow and Bill Hader as berry Sukur snow. I don't really have to tell the story. I told yesterday in front of an audience. Of course are good. Thank you know, that version is just the beginning see during rehearsal, and this is just my instinct, you're gonna find more complex. Gated up details. Those we have to hear right? But you know, you said that this is story that has to define us. And I just I don't think that's the person that I am Barry, you're justifying the nervous. I will not hear a word about switching it out. One iota for something less compelling. You, sir. Like doing Afghantistan? I want to do a story about meeting you go on. Yeah. You know being in this class and the senior teach and you want to tell the story of meeting me. Yeah. Allow it. That's great. I think it'd be way better than Afghantistan. I can be as involved as you need me to be in order to craft this space Arkan stay on the sidelines. I totally understand either ways. Okay. I don't think any new would know more about me than me. That's a good point. I don't think you need to be involved at all. You know? I I was there. I remember scrapbooks. Oh, cool. If you need them. I've got diaries have got pictures. I've got tapes sparing. I have got a lot of tapes. I think I'm good, Mr. Cousteau. No. Thank you. Henry Winkler welcome to fresh air. You're terrific in this role. I'm so glad to have you on our show. So your character Gina so intent on getting truthful performances from students and have them dig deep into their souls. But he's also so narcissistic and wrapped up in the mystique. He's tried to create around himself in this little class. This must have made you think a lot about some of the best and worst acting teachers you had now that you're playing an acting teacher have you gone gone back to look at your past and your acting teachers I have I've had about fourteen teachers from Emerson college to Yale drama school, just inbet- those seven years, and what was amazing is that some of them were inspirational some of them were mean, some of them lost their way and some of them had nothing to say, what is one of the worst acting exercises. You were obligated to do when you are a student. I did an exercise with one of my favorite teachers his name was Bobby Lewis. He was a member of the group theatre. Bobby Lewis had us pick a painting pick a character in the painting. Get some element of clothing that represented that character take the pose step out of the pose and create who you thought that person was I am so dyslexic. I got my piece of costume. I struck my pose I stood there. And he said is there any reason you are mirror opposite to what is in the painting. I said, no, I'm not I there's no reason at all. And I just turned around and immediately struck the pose in the other direction, and he started to cry. He said you're making a mockery of my work. And I. I had no idea what he was talking about. Well, that seems really harsh except that he was the man to be honest. Most of what I know most of what I use in my well of education comes from the great Bobby Lewis. So do you tribute this like a mirror reverse thing that you were doing to the dyslexia? I do I had no idea. And I of course, had no sense of self at that time. I was an unrefrigerated bowl of jello. Just before it congeals. I just thought. Well, that's it. My career is over my they're going to kick me out of school. So is that an example of bad teaching when you kind of ruin somebody's when you're lower somebody's toughest, even lower than it already was is that is that helpful. You know, what I think a lot of acting teachers they they talk about breaking bad habits. They talk about breaking you down. And I totally get that. But I have also I've taught four classes in my life. And I think you can get an actor to move off their position or her position without making them feel like poop from a at the bottom of the ocean. And by the way, you didn't know you had dyslexia at the time did not until I was thirty one. And you find out found out at the age of thirty one because. Yes, after my stepson was tested because he was so verbal and he is so smart. And but he couldn't do reports. He couldn't write. He couldn't organize his thoughts. And when we had him tested, everything that they said about jed was true about me. And I realized oh, I'm not a stupid dog. I actually have something with the name. How is that helpful to have a diagnosis? The first thing I got very angry because all of that all of the arguments in my house with the short Germans who were my parents were for naught, all of the grounding was not granting grounded like your ground. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like, I couldn't go to the dance on Friday night because your weren't watch. My grades were horrible. I am in the bottom three percent academically in America that is calculated. And then I went from all of that anger too. I now understand possibly if I didn't fight through my dyslexia. I would not be sitting at this microphone chatting with you. Right. So you really had to work hard to work through the dyslexia. So you can learn your parts. I mean if reading is hard Hagan memorize apart. Well, memorizing is different from the reading the reading was is still difficult for me. I when we did happy days, I embarrassed myself for ten years reading around that table with the producers the other actors director the all of the department heads on Monday morning, we read the scripts I stumbled over every word, I was completely IMB. Harassed memorizing if it's written. Well, my brain is then able to suck it up like a vacuum cleaner. I wanna play another scene from berry. This is from the first season. And you the acting teacher has just found out that one of your students has been murdered. This happens to be the person that berry who's a hitman and a student in your class. He came to your class because he was assigned to murder the sky, but the guy was already murdered by the time berry got their nevertheless, it's wing heavy on his soul. Yeah. So yeah. This is you talking to the class right after you found out that your student Ryan has been murdered. And you're telling the students about it. Yes. Focus. Focus. I wish I could say that. This was the first time that one of my students was gunned down in the street, but it's not and just much as it pains me to say, it is most likely not the last. So where do we go from here? I say we do what Ryan would have wanted us to do. And we use it. Silenced. Snow? What's that mean? He's it use Ryan's death. The way that Hugh are feeling right. Dissect the sorrows of rage. The term. You know, I use my pass all the time in my work. If I want pure sorrow, I call up Princess Diana's death or the day that my dad fell off the roof when I was a kid ca- punk with the next day when he went right back up. I did. I just I just thought since everyone was so bummed out. Maybe we could share some was up I playing characters and putting on some wigs. Wakes? Well, this is not play time to Harry them. This is not cheers. I am not Sam Malone. You wanna blow off steam to do it after I I know that no I'm actually quitting my job. So I can focus on this more that. He's great. That's that's my guests in rewind cler as the acting teacher and Bill Hader as his student who is also hitman berry. So is legis left. How like self important and self involved. That is that's in the class. That's in that theatre that I own outside when I'm additioning. I am just a poor schlub auditioning for the man in the back of the line. So the advice that, you know, gene, your character gives to the class of like. Yeah, we're all grieving the loss of of Ryan who was a member of this class. But let's use that grief is that good advice to use this fresh shared grief as a kind of. Well, it is part of the tool box of the actor. The only thing is that you don't talk about what feeds your emotional under life. You you you latch onto something. You keep it you a magin. It you use it in the play or the movie of the television show. But if is soon as you give it a name as soon as you reveal what that emotional. Trigger is in your in your work, it you can never use it again it will dissolve into dust. But some people hate talking to me. Why because I'm asking things about their craft. And if some people really feel like you just said, if you say what it is you're drawing on you've ruined it. But I know that some people feel in the some actress feeling the same way that's magicians feel like you don't tell how it's done because no one's the magic. Well, not only does it ruin the magic. And I'm so that is a magic trick. But I'm talking about for you, personally, if I'm using something, my cat died, and I always picture in my mind, my cat and how I love the cat. And I I don't particularly care for cats. But and I actually say to somebody. Well, I draw on my cat to get me to that emotional place. You can never use the cat as soon as you give words to your emotional. Well, you can't use it again. So how did you get the part in berry? My wife, and I had just left an estate planning meeting. I didn't understand one word that the two we're talking about. That's not your true. Yes. I don't know. But I really didn't get it. And all I kept saying was gas. That sounds like a great idea. And oh, yes, the kids are taking care of. That's good. And then we were driving down Ventura boulevard. I got a call in the car from my then agent iris who said they want you to come in. You're on a short list its Bill hater, I went Bill eight or Saturday Night Live, and it's H B O H B O. And then I said, okay. I'm on a list is Dustin Hoffman on that list. Because if he is I'm not going in. 'cause he's getting it. They said, no he's not on that list. I said, okay. They sent me a script our youngest, son. Max who is a director directed me in the scenes for the audition. And it was very strict. So you see you said of. Esten Hoffman is on the list. I'm not doing it. Why did you think of destiny decimo v star? Well, there's a lot of an Oscar winner. I know, but you know, where have you been at the same height? Okay. Did you ask why they thought of you? I never did. I was so flummoxed that they wanted to see me. Now I have to audition. I auditioned for Bill. I hate her. I made him laugh in the audition. Then you, you know, you're you wait until someone calls you. And then you your entire nervous system starts to eat you alive. And the truth. And then you get a call from bill's, and hey, I just wrote to new scenes last night wanna come in and play. And I said, no, I really don't wanna do that. Because maybe I won't be as good as I was the first time that made you call me the second. So I of course, I want to come in just sent me the script. So he wrote these two beautiful scenes, I now Email them to max, our son max directs me on the phone, and I go in the next day and now Alec Berg is there. But he is not just a co writer. This man is like the Krim de LA creme of comedy in American television. You know, he's Norwegian, and he his vest is so close he I think it's tattooed on. And he doesn't give anything away, and I made him smile, and I thought okay. So this is it I walk out of the room. I'm walking down the stairs. There's a young lady there. Her name is Sarah Goldberg. I said oh you trying out for Barry. She said, yes, I am. I said you seem wonderful. I wish you the best break a leg, and I left, and I lost my car in the parking lot. And Sarah got the part. And I got the part and Sarah is the star of my class. Did you find your car? Eventually, I did I guess you weren't paying attention. That's hello. That is the watchword of my life. Okay. So you got a primetime EMMY for your performance as the acting teacher in berry. Did it take a long time for you to unfunded yourself in the eyes of the yesterday? It did not with me. But yes, I literally saw it. I was going to beat the system the funds was so popular in so many countries. I thought this is gonna be I'm not going to be typecast. I'm gonna go from mountain top to mountaintop. And then I had a rude awakening that you don't beat the system. And it took me maybe eight years after the fawns to really get a good acting role. And that's when I started producing we did macgyver and sightings and so weird and directing a little bit. I wanna talk a little bit about happy days. How would you describe the series and your character to people too young to have seen it? It was a a story about a family about the trials and tribulations of living together. It was set in the fifties. Where the music was great. And my character was a tough a tough guy who wrote a motorcycle war leather jacket and had a very soft heart. Your character exuded? Good good. I I don't think you got to the more goofy parts of the character. What would what would that be that in your mind? Okay. That he thought he was like it, you know, that he was just like the the greatest most handsome people treated him like that. Right. I don't know that he thought he was because when he, you know, the first thing I said to the producers when they called me on my birthday in one thousand nine hundred seventy three and said would you like to play this part? I said, hey, when he takes the leather jacket off when he takes his jacket off who does he have to be cool for in his apartment. If you let me show the other side, it would be my pleasure to play this character. What did you really like tell them who the character needed to be before you accepted the part? No, not you. I would not tell Gary Marshall rest his soul who I thought he had to be. But I put the character on. And then they let me so it onto my being. My guest is Henry Winkler. He co stars in the HBO dark comedy series, Barry which is now in its second season. After a break. We'll talk more about the fonz and Henry Winkler will tell us about being the son of German Jews who got out of Germany just in time. And John powers will talk about had game of thrones has managed to become part of the global zeitgeist. The final season starts Sunday. I'm Terry gross. And this is fresh air got the papers on the traffic. Are you still get those? You ain't gonna rock and roll them. Don't don't that. With that. Are you don't go out? Don't go that you just put on your. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from mayo clinic when the search for the right answer becomes the most important journey of your life. When a clear diagnosis would mean the world to you when finding new options could help you find hope, you know, where to go mayoclinic, find out more. At mayo clinic dot org slash answers. This is fresh air. I'm Terry gross back with Henry Winkler who want an EMMY for his performance as a self important acting teacher in the HBO dark comedy series, Barry, which is now in its second season Sunday nights and was just renewed for third when we left off we were talking about the role that I made him famous as the funds on the seventies sitcom happy days, so your character when he was in public, and especially when who is around girls exuded confidence a comic confidence. But confident this confidence is something you told us you were greatly lacking in. That's true because of your dyslexia. And because your father was always like punishing you and insulting you for not doing well in school not realize because you had dyslexia. So was it. What was it like for you to be this comic character who just like exuded confidence? He'd snap his finger and girls would like walk over to him. He was here's my advice. Never actually snap your finger in real life. Women will break it off. That's good advice. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. But you know, here I got to be everybody that I wasn't. And I understood even then that the confidence I was feeling from the success of the character was cotton. And if God forbid rained the cotton would just squish into nothing what were some of the gestures or sounds or whatever including the fingers. That you came up with yourself that weren't in the script. Well, the gestures were written a was written. And I then I mean how about a y y y exclamation point. Right. You don't do that. Well, I also used it to reduce a lot of language to one sound. So if I had attitude about being hungry that girl was pretty don't mess with me. Let me think about it. I could use that one sound to say all of those different things and my favorite sport at the time was horseback riding. So I added the sound. Whoa. Oh, because that's what you say to your horse. Yes. That's interesting. Okay. That's another thing. I would not slow a woman's progress across the room with whoa. That was really good on TV. Okay. It's you exemplify the kinds of things you should not say or do regarding women. We're going to play a scene from happy days in which are talking about how to deal with women in your you're talking to Richie's parents hear about that Richie's there too. Take a seat. I'll tell you about women, right? This could be very enlightening. You gotta understand women. They anot real people. Excuse me. Listen, they expect the guy to make pets they get angry believing expect. But now this is crucial. But. Them feel. Dunked passed from hand to hand unwanted sight unseen, and you've got hurt feelings. Maybe he's right that maybe. He's wrong. I look I don't wanna hear anymore about this. We are going to tell the truth. And I don't wanna earn the arguments of funds is wrong. Okay. Some bad advice there. Let me just say the worst advice ever given out of a person's mouth specially. But you know, the there were many writers there were like twenty writers in the room from twenty one year olds to seventy seven year olds. And when we were doing this in the seventies. There was a completely different dynamic between people not that it was more. Right. It was just different. But if you know, I I now when when a fan comes and wants to take a picture, I asked if I can put my arm around them to take the selfie because we live in a very different time with a very different expectation and level of respect does some of the dialogue from happy days. Make you cringe listening back. No. 'cause it was what it was. And I love doing that show and. And I didn't know better. So you've told the story before about how early on in happy days, you're only allowed to wear your leather jacket when you were with your motorcycle. That's right because otherwise it looked to what ABC thought I would be associated with crime. So Gary Marshall in his wisdom because of the leather jacket. Look, yes, what you look like like with like a hood. I mean, like one of the people who made the leather jacket famous and movies as Morlin Brando. Yes. That's right. So he was a motorcycle, you know, like thug with us. Oh hilarious considering how many leather jackets and vegan leather jackets are out there. Now to think that like the leather jacket had such power that the network was afraid of you wearing it that is really a different time. It's amazing. And now that but I all those leather jackets from the tiniest leather jacket that the person had when they were three to the new leather jacket that they are wearing now I have signed. Silver. So I wanna ask you about your parents. I don't know if they're still alive are not. They're not. Okay. So you're know your parents were German immigrants. They came were here in nineteen thirty nine they did. So and and you're Jewish so it's good. They came when I did I think the door closed. Them. Yeah. So what what how do they know to to leave? I always want to help people know the time is right. And they'd better. My father knew that it was time. He got a six-week visa from Germany to come into work in New York, but was expected to come right back. I have told this story that he took his mother's jewelry. Bought a box of chocolate melted. The chocolate down put the pieces of jewelry in the in the chocolate box melted. The poured the chocolate over the jewelry put the box under his arm. So when he was stopped by the Nazis, and they said are you taking anything of value out of Germany? He said, no you can open every bag. We've got nothing and the jewelry that he encased in chocolate he sold when he came out of Ellis Island into New York and was able to start a new a new life here, slowly. But surely, I have the the actual letters from the government each time my father requested to stay a little longer, and they would say, yes. And I was born in thank God. Because I love our country. This is the US government giving him permission to status and. You had an ankle who stayed behind a little longer and couldn't get out Helmut, and he was supposed to escape with a submarine that that was supposed, you know, they had a meeting place, and they a lot of friends we're going to get on this submarine and get out. And he said, no, no, no. I'm just gonna stay one more day. It'll be fine. I'm having a white dinner jacket made at the Taylor. And I I would I think I can wait one more day. Now, be okay. And he was taken out wits. And I just did a show called better late than never where I traveled around the world. And I saw the plaque in the street that commemorated my uncle and every other Jew that was taken from Berlin. And it said his Helmut Winkler his date of birth. When he. Lived in the building the plaque was in front of and a what year he was taken to Auschwitz. So was it was your family religious where you will. You raise my family was religious. They are certainly more religious than I am. I am proud of my religion. My children were all bought and bar mitzvah d-. But I I'm not as traditional or keeping the tradition as my parents were we we said the prayer over the bread and the wine and the candles on Friday night. We had Shabbat dinner. My parents went to temple every week. They my father was president of the temple. Do you think that the holocaust made your parents feel more strongly about being observant? I don't have an answer to that question. Okay. I didn't like them so much. I didn't pay attention a lot isn't like, that's yeah. I didn't. Now, certainly now I've I've mellowed, but a lot of my life was fueled by the fury of these two people who were so. Non present. On who I was on the earth. Do you think that your parents having gotten out just in time, you're having died in Auschwitz, you know, the knowledge of what happened to everybody all the juices stayed behind Germany. Yes. Yes. Do you think that that made your father more disappointed in you in in in your difficulties reading and everything because it's like what do you have to complain about? Why can't you'd be better? Look, what happened in Germany like, you know, what I don't know. If that is true, listen, I figure the trauma of leaving your country losing your family. The holy cost of what was happening in the world at that moment, certainly affected the way they were. But on the education part the being lazy the not living up to my potential being Duma hunt, which is dumb dog. I think that was in his DNA. I think that they brought that with them with or without a war. Okay. Let's break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest. This Henry Winkler any no co stars in the HBO comedy series berry as an acting teacher will be right back after this break. This is fresh air. We'd like to thank our sponsor who brings you this message. Discover who alerts you if they find your social security number on any one of thousands of risky websites. Discover believes there are some things you just need to know. It's just another way. Discover looks out for you, not just your account and best of all social security alerts are free for discover card members. All you have to do is sign up online. Learn more at discover dot com slash free alerts. Limitations apply. Heo fear is here from NPR's asked me another need a break from the new cycle will then head over to ask me another this month. We've got puzzles games trivia and more women comedy joining us as Reta from NBC's parks and recreation grittily, endlessly Hedlund from the Netflix series, Russian doll and many more. Listen now. My guest is Henry Winkler any now stars as an acting teacher in the HBO comedy series, Barry, which is also a drama series. And it's on Sunday nights season two is now underway. So in addition to your acting, you also have co authored a series of novels about a boy named Hank who has dyslexia as do. And it's in a special typeface, which I thought was really interesting for dyslexic people. We you know, what there wasn't oh. An dad in Holland came up with it and the publisher penguin Putnam chose the typeface. It was the first time it was ever used in America. And I have to say I am so proud because I could've used it. It just makes the I track so much more easily across the page. Ila makes different the the sending line of the t the descending line of the g the c is there's a different distance in the in the in the opening of the c they are more weighted at the bottom of the letter. So they sit more comfortably on the line. So that they don't float. There are so many things he was a. A he is a graphic designer. And he's dyslexic, his children are dyslexic. And when you look at the novel itself when you look at the page go I get it's just so much more friendly. There's a little more space between the letters to. So that it's also. Yeah, it's easier to distinguish letters. Yeah. And it slows down I think the slows down the speed that you have to read at because there's fewer letters in words on the page. So let me just ask you. Yeah. I need to slow it down because it's so difficult for me. Even today. I cannot sound words out the word schedule is written out and taped to my computer because I use it all the time. And if it wasn't there, I cannot sound out the word or visualize spelling words, you know, how you said earlier the embarrass yourself at the Monday re. Readings happy because he had such trouble reading new scrip. Yes. Does a similar thing happen when you're reading berry? Yes, we're sitting around the table. And sometimes they people who sit next to me have to point out that I have dropped a line that I just missed it on the page. And I'm sitting there thinking, oh, God, I wonder whose line it is there's a big silence here. It turns out. It's may. So is it still embarrassing? Can you just say like I have to do it more? Slowly, I can say that. And I'm still embarrassed. Yeah. You know and not like that. But also, I want to be perfect, and I hate when I missed the timing or I screw another actress timing up because I have screwed the lineup so badly or I have to go back again, or oh, I hate it. Sometimes I just I hate my brain. Well, let's not healthy to hate your brain. No. Well, I'm not healthy. So you know, I can't end the interview without asking about jumping the shark. Sorry. Sure. Sure. You're tired of talking about this. I'm not you're not not with you. Thank you. So the expression has come to mean win. Some thing has kind of ended when it's time is over. So I want you to describe the scene in happy days where you literally water ski over a shark. That's kind of confined in a lake that you're water skiing on. Okay. So three facts one. My father the short German said to me every day for years to galley more shoes that you voters keep a data. I don't think I'm going to do that. No, no, tell him you water, skis, valium portent. I finally tell Gary my father wants you to know. I water ski. Okay. That's number one. Number two. I was a water ski instructor at blue mountain camps. And in Strasburg, Pennsylvania and I loved water skiing. We water skied on male pack lake just north of New York, and I did all the water skiing except for the jump itself, which they I I don't know how to do that stunt and they brought somebody in from Sarasota springs, Florida. When I hit the beach at the end when I've jumped the shark I land on the beach, and I step out of my skis. And I'm smiling. I'm thinking it is great half the smile is Henry going. Oh my God. I can't believe you just did that and the other half is the funds going right here. And I did it. I'm very cool. What was it about that scene or that episode that came to signify when something's time is up when it's over, you know, what I don't know to them of the fawns water skiing was just like the last straw. The only thing is it wasn't to the audience because we were number one for years after that. So it didn't much Matt anybody I should mention in that senior wearing your leather jacket over your SIM, the the lining is ripped out. And I think I I had very nice legs at that time. So how does it make you feel that you're seeing came to define it's over? Okay. Here's the truth. Are you ready? Yes. I'm ready. I don't care. Okay. I think it is wonderful, and we're still talking about it in two thousand nineteen. I think this is all great. This is America. Henry winkler. It's just been great to talk with you. Thank you. So you. Henry Winkler co-stars in the HBO series. Bury the second season is being shown on HBO Sunday nights. It was just renewed. For a third season. The final season of game of thrones start Sunday on HBO after a break. John powers will talk about why it caught on around the world. This is fresh air. Support for this podcast comes from REI co op as do the following questions. Where do you see yourself in five miles? What does silence sound like can bear spray? Help you sleep. What's the easiest version of climbing a mountain dew mosquito fund me attractive REI can help you. Find out for yourself with gear classes and eighty one years of outdoor experience. Learn more at REI dot com. What's unique about the human experience? And what are we all have in common? I'm guy Roz every week on Ted radio hour, we go on a journey to the big ideas, motions and discoveries that fill all of us with wonder find it on NPR one or wherever you get your podcasts. As everyone has surely heard by now on Sunday night HBO will begin airing the final season of game of thrones a show with a Utah and fanatical international fan base. Although HBO hasn't made any episodes available for screening our critic at large. John powers couldn't resist talking about why it's a show that defines our era when game of thrones premiered eight years ago this month. I was skeptical. I mean who wanted to see a dungeons and dragons epic loosely based on the fifteenth century war of the roses. Then I watched the first episode which built to the most shocking ending. I'd ever seen on TV a night who's been caught making love to his own. Sister pushes a ten year old boy from one hundred foot tower that got my attention, and obviously not just mine as it starts down the homestretch on Sunday. This HBO franchise has become the world's most popular show, some journalists or even writing elegiac art. Nichols about how given are fragmented media environment game of thrones. Maybe the last TV series that everyone watches at the same time in order to be part of the conversation. It's easy to understand its popularity said on the imaginary continent of west rose, invented by novelist. George are Martin game of thrones tells a juicy story of heroic knights Kenny Unix religious fanatics, psychopathic kings, fire breathing, dragons, savage wars, strong, women, naked women and men whose castration anxiety is caused by actual castration. All this lurid. Steph is deathly orchestrated by series, creators, David Benny off and db Weiss who gives us a changing world of changing characters, for instance, Nikolai cluster, wall, handsome villainous Jamie, Lancaster, he's the one who pushed the little boy off the tower, gradually, develops a complicated. Moral sense over the years game of thrones has risen from being a nifty potboiler to a timely expression of zeitgeist that contest everything from gender to climate change to immigration, heck, west rose. Even has a big wall to keep out aliens is become so much of our cultural lingua franca that when liberals compared Donald Trump to king Joffrey or conservatives compare Hillary Clinton to Searcy Lancaster. They assume you know, what they mean? Of course, like any truly great piece of pop entertainment, the show doesn't make an obvious political statement. But as a stew of energizing contradictions in fact, it sometimes feels like a strange collaboration between Dick Cheney and Rachel Maddow the world. It depicts is Cheney esque in its doom Laden vision of life as a dog. Eat dog struggle for power without power this show suggests you are nothing and your ideals are pointless without strong authority. There is chaos at the same time. The series is shot through with jaunty Madda west liberalism, a belief that not only is compassion possible. But that the most compassionate people are apt to be outsiders, the debauched honorable dwarf Tyrian Lancaster played by Peter. Gingrich who gets the show's best lines kit Harrington's bastard. Jon snow who is literally resurrected to help save the world and Amelia Clarkston nearest target Orion. Who after being? Forced to marry a hunky barbarian mothers, three dragons, and becomes the slave freeing Khalidi who offers potential followers, a rather. Steely vision of freedom as we can here in this speech from last season. I'm not here to Mata and all I want to destroy is the wheel that is rolled over rich and full to the benefit of no one. But this SE non of the woth. I offer you a choice Benz the knee and join me together, we will leave the well to better place than we found it will refuse. And by from the show's beginnings, we've heard dark mutterings that winter is coming the shows obvious analogue to climate change. And with the arrival of the white walkers humanoid ice creatures that will slaughter everyone in their path and season after season. We've watched this existential threat be ignored by leaders and would be leaders sunken. They're smaller obsessions with revenge family. Sadistic pleasure. And of course, personal power in the upcoming episodes. The main characters will face the consequences of such carelessness and game of thrones true vision will finally reveal itself will western be saved by the alliance between John snow and the mother of dragons will stare say truly join with others to fight the army of death or will she still be scheming. And if the latter who will finally kill her. The smart money is on her brother in lever, Jamie. I'm not kidding. There are already gambling pools on who will live and who won't. That's because the series great narrative strength has always been its ruthlessness with most shows, you know, who safe Don Draper isn't going to die in season two of madman. But here you don't major characters have been killed off every season. And we knew that some of our favorites will die this time out. In fact, what makes the show special is that given the Hobson in reality of west rose. We can't be completely sure they won't all die naturally. I don't hope that this will happen. But I do find it exciting that for once it just might John powers is our critical large wanna congratulate our classical music critic Lord Schwartz who was also a poet and just received a Guggenheim fellowship in poetry, fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews produced an edited any salad Phyllis Myers. Sam brigger, Lauren Frenzel, Heidi soman. Theresa Madden moves eighty Challenor and Seth Kelly. I'm Terry gross.
Zero Gravity Boning
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Doing someone else's podcast and dominates madame results caller new like silly story before i call her the problem. My mother always said bang bang. Hello hi sorry. I was late. That's on me that's all right. What are you doing killing been while rode horses morning. I've spent like doing some housework. You know you know those days where you just do five loads of laundry a change. The sheets unpack repack. Just get the house in order that kind of thing. Those are the worst sundays. Sundays for ya. But then you're sundays ruined all those things mississippi my day of rest and doing the most work today. Yeah i've cleaned a toilet today. Semi normal job. I know god. I hate clean the toilet. I got the message. The worst you know i do should do now. I'm sorry had sucks. I mean it's whatever the hell just crazy. When i'm gone all the time you know jet-setting around bebopping around. I really have kudo fun. Where were you just now. Just now atlanta. Oh highland boil john. Now where did i see. He was maybe vegas vegas but he was. He was like i saw him the other day and he was like. Yeah i gotta go to Back to atlanta a show them going to vegas and doing a show on. I was like He is booked like he. It's crazy he's like he plays like every single for unite. Oh so derek's coming in the night. Oh that's right so it's exciting so texoma like hey man when he get in and he's like well then like seven at lax Got a bag. So like seven fifteen. And i'm sitting there thinking like. Why are you telling me how long it's gonna take to get your bag do you. Do you think that i'm gonna come. You're gonna uber right. And he was like no. You can't pick me up. What first of all like this any other airport. Yeah any any other any other except for like lax maybe like like jfk or laguardia to places like you should never ask anyone to get you at now. You can't and also he's getting it seven and i live in the city. So that means you boys alphabet there. Guess we'll time that is. That's six o'clock monday night. Traffic on the four zero five you my ass fucking airport broke the cover three hours. No thank you. And honestly if he's landing at seven you're not seeing him until like ten. No i think that like eight thirty realistic situation. I don know. Lax or something else. Yeah i know. I've got faith thing though. I know if we should wait for the show to start for me to do it but maybe but it does have to do a remind me. It does have to do a traveling and like okay. The life act. I figured out. How dare derek's coming in and these days is staying to the end of the week. So he's i think he's taking till day because on friday. I'm going to napa for ben and jerry's engagement party. Oh excuse me we're gonna we're gonna wind conference scam. I got scam but like not a scam. But it is kind of a scam. I thought i was just being invited. You engagement party come to find out. It's like livestream. People can buy tickets to like hang out because the money going to charity which is great. But i'm like what the fuck is this. I thought we just wanted to come to celebrate your love. now. I know there's those alterior motives afoot. Yeah leave it to those two to be distant and anything in everything for charity. Less their heart dow. I'm complaining about the charity. And they're trying european. Shed problem here. I think we've realized that. Yeah i just didn't know that's what it was you know and i didn't know until like someone like tweeted being like don't miss your tickets to hang out with bed adjusts and well what what i think. Incredible do we have matching yeti water bottles so i came by the way i love this yet. We do say what it's got like the the sippy cup screw top. Yes grew top minds. Blue blue to Mine's black the black one. Yeah you got sticker on their your do because so my dad gave me this and someone gave it to him and it says something really fucking weird. It says like it's something. I forget what it said. I'm not gonna take the sticker off but it says something weird that my mom has something to do with weed. I don't know it was like cotton mouth or something really. Yeah but i was like. I want the yetis so i just slapped a sticker on no one. No one will ever know you. Gotta you gotta choose your sticker. Right for a yeti or for any water bottle because you put that baby in the dishwasher if the right type of of like really high class sticker that flaky and no thank you. Yeah i didn't really think about that you. I don't put my dishwasher a ton. Hand wash but i have I have a Smoky mountains sticker. Great smoky mountains sticker from one. I stayed under canvas cool. I'm living a little bit in a crisis situation. Just so you know I wanna run. And when i came back. One of the dogs got into women's vitamins ono and like they're like little capsules Daily and there's ninety in there and counted seventy eight Left so one of a dogs. Eight twelve of these castles. And i'm concerned that they're i mean like when i look at the ingredients like merkley and like whatever. Yeah one of them did throw up. And i don't know which one did. I think it was boo so news. I'm going to take a quick pause and just make sure that they're both alive. Okay let's giving ticket. I support this. Think they're okay to all right. How hotlanta look good. You know what's so crazy. The flight from here to atlanta is like twenty three minutes the air. It's so fast. I mean like atlanta's three hours away ending four but here's the thing about some day in the not so distant future. They're going to figure out how we fly faster. How cool be when. It takes. Twenty minutes to get like anywhere. We haven't been able to turn up the speed in our planes since like the seventies the seventies. We're going to speed. Yeah but so. Something's gotta give soon right like yeah we gotta figure it out guys. I heard from somewhere that what they're trying to figure out is how to fly higher so that was go faster. Something you law. Musk fucking jeff bezos and richard. Branson figure it out right now. Yeah i think they're going to figure it out. Do house with you like they are one of my favorite things right now. Because of how fucking ridiculous it is explain okay so the three richest guys right. Now they're just like we gotta go to space. They're like listen. No matter what we gotta fucking go to space. What's of all the things that we need right now. Space number one for you guys. Three richest guys are like. I know. let's do it fucking america. Man what do we do in america. Fucking try to leave. America go put a space like what is the biggest big dick competition. I've ever seen a hundred percent. But i'm here for it because i want to go to space. I do too. But also bezos against you. Bring in your brother gebran get. That wasn't that old lady business base and that little kid eighteen year old kid. All my you gotta be kidding me. You bring an eighteen year old kid. Snot kid has an experienced anything in life that he doesn't deserve this people who've been in ranches branding. I deserve to be up there checking it may. Also here's thing you guys didn't go to space bro. Not space used neo. Hi okay like spaces. And now richard branson. I watched that video enemy. He's up there. He's there but he's not in space. He's not lower earth orbit okay. It looked like he was like looking at the fucking planet though and i was like that is sydney. He is but he's not in orbit yet. Either was jeff bezos. The fuck set. Something into orbit is elon. Musk but he hasn't gone on it the prize that he hasn't gone but he's probably like actually i think he's an alien already been up there. I know it's like to really go into space guys. You gotta go up so high and go so fast. It goes seventeen thousand miles per hour which they didn't go that fast because effectively getting into orbit means that like your spaceship is always trying to fall back to earth. But because you're going so fast in your so above the earth that you're always falling around it Do that and then they fell back down. They didn't need heat shields. Oh god he chills. You ain't space guys. They were floating though they were floating around. Know and i want to do the floating thing. Wouldn't thing looks. Yeah it's called mile high when you get laid in a plane. What's it gonna call when you get like inox and boots up in fuckin- martian territory. I don't know i dunno either. That'd be cool though we this velcro. Booties or something because you need leverage to do sex you do. You're actually do you actually like you might. Have you ever had sex in a pool. I was sitting on like standing on. I don't think i actually did the deed in the pool. I think i got out for like having sex and waters not all it's cracked up to be. I agree yeah completely like takes away natural lubrication which you need. You know ki ki he is. I guess my point is like you're on the deep end. Try to like bone down. I think you'd be like it'd be hard. Give that a try and let us know how it went. And then we'll circle back to this. It's gotta be some way of tears that know about zero g boning all right. No do there. I can't imagine anyone knowing about that. He's going to be a study done though happen. It's so funny because it's such a pissing competition a big dick competition with a bunch of dudes who are flying things. That look like big dicks. Yep and they're so smart so they irony can't be lost on them. Jeff bezos must know that it looks like he just shot a dildo into space has to know it. I think sometimes people that are so book. Smart are not like street smart and like. Don't get stuff like that. So my mom and i were talking yesterday and she was like brand. How come your hair doesn't shed like mine. And i was like listen mom. I don't mean to brag. But i've better hair than you and that's because i have been taking neutral hair vitamins for i want to say i'm going like over six months now on the stuff like i've been taking it for a while and i'm here to tell you that it really does change your hair. I truly believe that healthy hair. It comes from the inside out and yeah you can use. You know all the hair products you want. But there's nothing like taking a good hair. Vitamin neutral has to targeted formulas for women that are clinically shown to improve hair growth and thickness with less shedding. Like me through all stages of life i take the regular formula and then my mom takes the one. I just got her on it. She's taking the one four mature women and you know guys healthy hair growth takes time so you really gotta stick this out and take this consistently and then you'll begin to experience thicker stronger faster growing hair in about three to six months with continuous use. You had a clinical study. Eighty six percent women reported improved hair growth after six months which is amazing so grow thicker healthier hair and support our show by going to neutral dot com and entering the promo code. Yif t to save fifteen dollars off your first month subscription. it's their best offer anywhere and it's only available to us customers for a limited time. Plus you'll get free shipping on every single order so get fifteen dollars op at neutral dot com and net spelled n. u. t. r. a. f. o. l. dot com and the promo code is. Why f. t. I think we need to start at the show. Yeah me are you you. Bros. zinho's you're listening to your favorite thing. Podcast with wells and brandy diplomatic What is the shirt you're wearing. Is it pink. Maybe like it. I love the shirt by the way. This is not an ad. But what brand is it. Leo vici never heard of it. I like a lot so soft. It's nice it's so soft but it also kind of like showcases like like my nipples. Because it's so you know what i'm saying like another. You mentioned that don't like that. So it's like i'm always tweak my nipple so it looks like i got bigger makes it worse elbows. Just don't look at it. look at it longer matter. Okay so if you had to go to space. Jeez want to go into orbit. Do you want to go to the moon. You want to go to mars. Join go europa. Like where you wanna go. I feel like maybe a man would be cool. But i i would. I would be satisfied with getting to go like a space station that to circling the earth and getting to like see the views because there was like a bar up there. You know the. I know or like a hotel and you just go stay at night and spacey sickening now. I think it's going to happen soon. I think in the next twenty years. Someone's going to do it. Because like why non. And now. I just hope that a it happens before i'm too old and i'm butts die or be. I hope it's like not so outrageous. That i can't afford it. Yeah i know you gotta start saving now for my trip to space that trip to space fund. You guys have retirement finalize trip to space fund coca cola. Both speaking of travel. And i said i wanted to talk about a favorite thing that do a travel and i know this is going to be very niche. But i feel like they're growing small business that's growing but if you have you heard and or flown on jay sx. I have not heard or flown on that. Okay used because jet sweet now. I know what that is. I flew on windows called jet sweet. Now it's called j. essex and i got like looped in because my instagram was like. Oh you're looking for flights. Here is an ad for x. Files like all right. What is this. This is gonna sound boosie because it is but it isn't also. I just went up to monterey. 'cause i want to play golf with my brothers and my nephews and stuff and Grabbed old car for my dad. The sucks about fucking luck. Flying in los angeles is going to lax. Yeah worst place in the world right seven. Three of hell. No thank you but there is the burbank airport which is like six miles away from me. Right down the street okay. That's where i fly in. And out of sc- it's where it's at. And i told derek today i was like if you've flown in burbank. Get you but brom not passover city for you absolutely kidding i wouldn't even i wouldn't even get on the i void the five like the plague. Bro yeah so yeah. I try to fly out of burbank as much as possible. Obviously has big big but jay sex does like six legs it does burbank to monterrey. Which is where. I'm from so i wanted that flight. They also have like one the napa one to taupo one this okay and it's the closest thing that you can get to fly in private without flying private. Okay yeah you. You go to a hangar. Just a random hangar. It you don't go through any security. They print out your ticket like it's a fucking receipt by the way like a cvs received probe you go. Then you walk into this hanger. They had like a lounge there which is nice and they're serving beers or whatnot and you're chilling. I could've shown up a minute beforehand. That him unlike like hold on the print. Button on your receipt. Here you go get on the plane and the little lounge the giant hangar. Then they pull the dragging the plane into the hanger and then they're like our and then everyone just gets on this tiny little jets and then you fly to wherever you're going and then the monterey flight you land but you don't go to the monterey terminal where they have south west in america that kind of stuff then you gotta sit there. Wait bags claim. No they fucking plo the backs they put him on the ground as they get the fuck out of here and then walked down little steps. You grab your bag and then it's a different exit. It's like you and your airport and here's the thing you're doing so expensive. No it's not how my flight for one eighty nine zero one eight nine. That's going to monterey normally like on just like southwest or whatever like american it would have been. I only one way flight but it would have been two hundred bucks one hundred one fifty per share. I was talking about he. Tanner about it and he said don't tell anybody dude like don't let people know about j. x. I'm like i know. But i gotta say i loved it beautiful so a friend of mine. I just text him to ask what it was called because he just flew from dallas to nashville and something very similar. I think it was a different name but same concept. And i which i've never seen it anywhere but california. Yeah i get starting to happen. I know and i don't want to tell people about it. And then like all of a sudden. The price is outrageous. And i'm like oh man. I'll just go back to lax gas. But i can't do that to my peeps tears if you need to be. Here's the thing if you come to california. Because i know like people don't actually have here if you come to california want to bebop around california cool places. You should do this thing instead of like. Well it's always fun to drive up and down the one or whatever but you'll have a time and if you can be like oh new napa and tahoe and vegas and l. a. And san francisco on this like private thing dude. It's cheap grazie. I know kind of like my one. Big thing was kind of exciting. Oh the other things. I went there. You know that. I like old cars. Like i've been fixing my old landcruiser and so my dad has He's getting the point now is like making his will and asking everyone like what they want. And everything and i jokingly was like i want the ben's he's got this old mercedes in nineteen eighty six one ninety two point three sixteen valve. They only made two thousand of them but it looks like every bad guy from nineteen eighties. Movie that baby sold drugs or was like a bully and like every like john hughes situation his car. If you know what. I'm saying. I was like i want that. And he's like all right. Come get it. So i went up there. I played golf on s of shutout. And then i got the car. And i drive back down. It's like five hour drive. So here's the thing that he didn't tell me The air conditioning does not work. Things don't work and it's like it's it's going to be a whole little process but it's a cool looking car. Anyways aches doesn't work and anyone who's driven from monterey to la. Knows that if you want to get there the fastest you gotta cut through. Pass the robe lace on the forty six and go go over. The grapevine were james dean died unfortunately anyways Just so you know it's seven million degrees. And so i am sweating like a hooker in church driving this old car so concerns gonna. It's so old. And i find that sucks. Oh so hard so hard. I was sweating so much. And i was so uncomfortable that finally i had to strip down to my underwear. I was just driving this old car in my underwear. Bebopping around going down and people are driving past. And just looking at me like this guy's nakedness car and then there's a couple of times in like younger girls. Were in the passenger seat. Fucking from the bachelor. Be sweating bullets in say anyway. She made it so what you're going to restore this car and then it's going to be your car. What yeah he's gonna have it. So yeah i'm going to restore it and then and then we're going to see you know i don't know the thing is. I did that landcruiser now. Navarine wants to buy it. And like i'm not selling this thing and then the saxon after this annapolis lama soup it up. It's going to be bad. Asked for nasa by number known. Then what do you. Why do i have two cars. I don't need that. Maybe this could be like your new like side thing side. Hustle is a restoring cars maintenance. Elena making some money. I know it's true. But i'm not gonna wanna pry. Maybe i will. It's a cool carpet. I'm gonna start like i think on instagram. Start like showing people it. And which i do too. I haven't i have a vision for what i want. Number one on the docket today was. Let's see if we can get that. Ac fixed so. I took it over mechanic and he was like okay so this is a really old car and like we don't have this type of freon anymore so we need to redo the entire season like expensive will go. Cars are expensive. Yeah they are batch one batch and my gosh yeah duh always that weird episode of like half episode half menthol all. I'm like we have one of the other. Don't here's my complaint. I got all sappy for michael story. I know and then i got all like garland dominator dick's and i was like i. Don't i went on too much of an emotional roller coaster. I wanted to stick with feeling bad about michael Yeah i was shocked that he'd left before hometowns dude. You're right there right there like you're going to go to your kid like tomorrow because it's your hometown. No that i get. I get it but also yeah like you're like you're right there. You've come this far. I know he is right and everybody dealings. He is right there. he's also not right there knowing how it works. Every guys hometown takes a week. Maybe not i would have been like. Hey my needs to be i. i'm gonna leave. Yeah but he can't leave the bubble so they've got to wait for everyone to be over. I guess you could have laughed. And then like corentin came back and came. No i'm saying like he should've said the producers like hey. I need to go home so if my hometown can't be the first one like that. They go do than i have to leave and they may have let him go. I you know. Yeah but he has to come back for the engagement portion and for fantasy yes and stuff i know but at least he would have gotten some time with this on it would have been. I could've been worth at least having the hometown to see how everything was going. Yeah out have been like all right. Let's pay for a nanny to come out here with the kid and you can see him every once but that's not the show their people with kids before he can't do that. You know yeah. I did feel for him but also like katie's face when he started breaking up with her was fucking terrified. I was like oh. She knows what's coming and she's a yeah. It was the one time. I think she kind of let her guard down a little bit and wasn't thinking of like she was in micro world and not thinking of macro world. Yeah yeah yeah. Because she sat there and said like. I saw us walking away at the end of this. Like do you think he was her top choice at that moment. I don't know third. Because i think it goes greg and or blake at one and then michael but yeah but if you're doing that show like the thing that every on what i've heard from every like bachelorette when you're doing that show your biggest fear is you're choosing someone that doesn't really want to be married to you. They're it's a competition and the guide is win and just re really wants to become famous. And if you're if that's really what your fear is then michael's bright choice for it Agree but Yes she was. Just like like cnn. Read piercing daggers. When he's just like and then when she sees him at mental all i mean she showed no emotion. Yeah i think. She thinks he's mad at him. Yeah and also. I see where she's coming from because it's like it's a little bit of if this is how you felt. Why didn't you tell me so. I could had andrew stick around longer something that we deal with a lot in paradise. Big problem always is is. If you knew you didn't want to do this or be here. You shouldn't have come because you've taken the place of some of that does want to be here right. Yeah so yeah i listen. It's it's tough thing. But i you're not a michael guy and i have been michael guy after that. Are you kind of michael guy. I think more so. Like i liked him a lot more this last episode than i have not. I mean no. It's okay like everyone's like oh michael bachelor i don't i don't like that. Well i mean listen. If you can't do you know once on the bachelorette that you can't do to being the bachelor agree. I think it's out of the cards for him. Yeah but who knows maybe not. I was getting vibes. Like andrew might be the bachelor his hot seat if you wanna call it. That was very bachelor vibes. Yes very and just like things that were being said. I really hope that. Like i find love or my personal. Whatever anti she was like. Oh you'll get you'll get you'll get your chance or something and i was like Yeah there's a party that was like are they going to announce it right now. That's what i thought too. Yeah i guess they're gonna wait. Just i've been saying they need to wait for paradise that because who knows who could pop out of there you know when they talked to me about potentially being the bachelor and they had me do a hot seat with chris and then they aired the mental all and they cut me from it. That's how i found out that. I wasn't going to be the bachelor via hadn't like watching that being like okay. He's definitely still running in this whole thing. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah definitely. What about my boy. Connor come on. You had the loved it. I liked it for him. It was it was like. I loved this mental all. Actually i usually hate them. And i thought this one was really good and a lot of that had to do with connor and his stint with the girl in the audience. I mean like listen. I you couldn't pay me to kiss connor but i mean great for her. He does kinda look like a bad kisser. Like that looks like kiss. Yeah little terrible loved it. So i mean your life. Yeah she was hot. Yeah i now. I'm into the whole thing i just thought. How do you go about getting that done. You know like you got to be in the in the audience and then you've got to figure out how to get a hold of a producer and be like. Hey i got this idea. I wanna make this guy. And then they got to be like okay all the producers at the on board with it and then they go mike her up so many things had to happen for her to be able to do that. Where i'm just like crazy lady. Do that also like i like that. They were like okay. Let's go with this because so many things that have gone ron. I wonder if she knows somebody behind the scenes. I don't know because they trusted her enough to do it. You know because she could chicken doubt and then connor could also been like. I'm dating a girl back home or like i've got a girlfriend impaired. You know like there's a lot of things that could have gone wrong but it went so right. And i just i love connor like he just is that guy. I think what i like about him. I recognize that he's a dork and a for you. You recognize these dark and you don't like that because you're looking at it in terms of being sexually attracted somebody where i'm just looking at it as being like being entertained like i like how he's so unapologetically a dork like he knows what he is and he just does it and i respect him for that. I like that. That's good point you. If i was one of those guys i would grab that fucking ukulele and baroque it over my name like no more no more no more. I kind of wish that would have happened brand. I'm not sure if you saw. Who won the Open championship now. Well it's a golfer by the name of colin more akao who also won. Believe the pga this past year do you know who or one of his big sponsors is. Is that their gun. Of course like he has like their commercials and stuff but like how. He won the open championship. He want major and you know why is it because he's good gulf. Maybe is because of his thera gun. Maybe i don't know exactly what it is. But i do know that he used the thera gun. Is there a gun. Which means that. I could win. Open championship down the line. We're not who knows what's going to happen but anyways if you haven't gotten the gun yet. What are you doing with your life not winning open championships. That's for sure well even if you're not an elite athlete like that guy You could be someone like mere wells and their gun is pretty much. I love to use it when i'm watching. Tv at night before bed. When i use might they're gonna. I truly wake up with like faster muscle recovery. I'm not as sore from you. Know all the horse stuff. I've been doing that day. Plus i really do think it helps. Make me sleep better. I think i think because it increases your circulation and get your blood pump in like. There's something about it that just puts me right to sleep. I islip great. Gun is a hand held progressive therapy device that releases your deepest mush attention using a scientifically calibrate combo of depth speed and power. And it's as quiet as an electric toothbrush. Honestly it's one of the best purchases. I've made a very long time. You guys gotta get yourself a faira gun so try their gun for thirty days. Starting at only one hundred ninety nine dollars just go to thera gun. Dot com slash. Y of tea right now and get your jen for thera gun today. That's gun dot com slash y. f. T. thera gun dot com slash lie at t two favorite things to happen when they showed caitlyn getting engaged to first of all. Like i love jason. I understand the sentiment like they met on a podcast. But you best believe you. Best believe fi has sarah to marry me off podcasts. She'd be like all right steak a beep. Let's turn around. Let's rethink this and let's do it again. I would be like that. I would've been like. I would have been like you know what i'm gonna stop you right there. Just don't say another word was just pretend this never happened. Gogi shit together but it was really cute for them. And i mean i teared up a little bit when jason was like you know when we did our very first podcast like i would have never guessed that i would have met my best friend. The mother by children did i. Decide got emotional. I love how he cried and she did not cry. Yeah because i'm really emotional. Though i know she didn't surprise to because probably the of reminds us like was put a pin in this. And do this in the maldives. Okay what do we do when he was either. That was fun funny and then the other thing that i thought was really funny. First of all thomas where you gotta be bro. What do you now what. I don't think they should have let him do that. I think they should have said you either. Come and be on the show or you. Don't yeah maybe he had covert or something like who knows. Because here's the thing. Thomas is and i think the problem that everyone has with him that he is very very polished everything. He says everything he does how he presents himself. It's very very rehearsed down to how he styled his zoom call. Oh i know that is not the most thomas thing ever is to be like living a west elm add lick. Everything was like perfectly place. There's a little ladder and a lantern off to the side. We're the fuck are you. Are you in restoration hardware right. I wondered if he did that. Or if like the producers had done that. I think so but i wouldn't be surprised if he was like. Yeah i wouldn't either. He does seem like that kind of guy he does. I agree with you. That the whole thing. That's funny actually. The thing that i think. I didn't like the most was the bloopers. I like the bloopers. Weren't that good this year. They saw right. Yes they sucked and then like the two things that were good. that should have been bloopers. Was they finally explained. How there's like this whole part of the date that was funny. The british talking in the credit roll. Yeah i loved that. I mean those two like other than that was like these blooper suck. Yeah they weren't very good anyways. The funniest thing in the bloopers was with the stick. And that was that was hilarious. So it's good. It's literally fell on the grill down. She felt out and tiny little five foot. One katie's like trying to like hoist can't was insane all right so we're getting close to the end. Now what two episodes left. yeah. I think so. Wow where's your money. I feel like it. It's greg who she's going to want to be at the end. But i don't know what's going i mean. Obviously like they're killing us with the whole like caitlyn's what are you want to happen. And she's like. I want someone a book. My flight home like shit. Go down you. She thinks she's gonna leave without getting anybody maybe abe. I don't know who's left. Is it like expressions guy Expressions guy is just like he got to be looking around being like. I don't even know if they know i'm still here. I think they just forgot to like book my flight home and he's like sweeping the floor and stuff like planning. He works there now. He's like maybe maybe they'd i work at the hotel. I guess getting blink greg. Yeah so it's blake and greg You got. I'm telling you. I think she's gonna want greg and for some reason i'm feeling like he's not gonna be down but that's not what you've been saying this time you're saying that blake isn't isn't going to be ready Blaze's devlin already. Yeah all right. Well we shall see Yeah good stuff that another al and then paradise it starts. Wait be fun. They put on teaser today. And you see me crying in it. So i know what are you crying about. I don't know if i want to ruin it for people for hint has to do with connor. Your boy boy all right. I think that's enough batch. You got an east faith. Things broher what we least thing. What is it you think. I may have mentioned it on our on our zoom this past week but i just can't watch the new gossip girl can't do it. Yeah have you watched it at all. No because we talked about on zoom. I think maybe i. I can't remember but i'm chuck bass guy in chuck bass ain't there. I know. honestly it's just not good at all. Yeah i can't watch it. That's the bummer. Well i've got some burma. I got something good for you. Okay gunpowder milkshake. What what does that. It's on net flicks and the cast is insane. All right. it's karen gillian and you might not know who that is. But you know all the things. She's been in like what she's nebula in guardians of the galaxy. She's the hot chick in jumanji. Og dumont know the new one. I don't think i saw him anyone. Issue have with kevin hart in the you need to watch jumanji. it's eli yes an originalist so good. Can you beat that actually better than the original. And i'll tell you why. Way jack black kevin hart. The rock are in a movie together. Okay and in the in the second. One jack black kevin hart the rock. Danny devito and danny glover and nick jonas. Oh and let's throw in like colin hanks just for funsies anyways so carrying. Gillian is in gunpowder milkshake. So you all sit. Lena headley you know that. Is i sure do she's back. Say this i guess i can. She's dating my buddy ozark. Mark ozark marks dating searcy lancaster. They've been dating for awhile. Woo yeah off the texture of make sure i can leave that in. But i'm sure you can google and that's me anyway so great so she's in it and then oh paul. Giamatti is in it angela. Bassett's in it. I mean like the the star power crazy all right. So here's the tile three generations of women fight back against those who could take everything from them gunpowder milkshake. It's very stylized. Think dick tracy but also very female empowerment because it's all women and it starts out with the lead caring gillian. You realize she's a hitman. She comes across a little girl in a hit and like needs to save her right so then she gets burned by her. Pitman squad kinda similar to john wick if you will and then you find out her mom. Lena headley thirsty. Lancaster was also like a bad ass. Hit woman and then angela bassett in these two other women who are actually amazing actresses. They are like also bad ass. Hit women that help out. It's a spaghetti western meats. Kill bill meets. Dick tracy and i tell you what is good. And it's on netflix. Yeah what's it called again. The name is so weird. Gunpowder milkshake shake etc. Dude i watch it should have you seen sex in the city. The original one. Yeah yeah of course. Upset men are trash. Why and you know what then our trash and they were trashed back then and their trash. Now they are. That's what i'm learning from the show. So you're watching sexy for the first time right now. Yeah i told this couple. Of what character do you identify. With the most samantha or now charlotte area for sure. Yeah kerry. you're a boss lady. She's the cool check you know. Yeah as a boy charlotte charlotte. He is dumber than a box of rocks. Though you know shoes in tiny and brunette lawler is that psycho oh my god Okay well big is a piece of hot garbage. Dates kerry for years breaks up there. Once they get back together and won't commit won't get serious doesn't want to be married you know. Just whatever drags carry along for years and years only to go to fuck in paris and meet some twenty two year old and proposed her in like three months. What a piece of trash. But i will say this aiden is a good guy and chief fox eight a lot. So is that his name. Yes john corbin. But his name's aiden in the show and yes guys are are pieces of trash but she is a piece of trash subtypes to in that show. I mean i watched his show fucking twenty years ago only because big treated her like garbage the first two seasons so now that she's and hard and stone cold and now she's like well nominate everybody else like sixty treated me like shit. That's a vicious cycle. And you could say the same thing for you could citizens forbid like big tree shit in college and got cheated on a big fucking origin story. I'm just saying there's no excuse for turning someone bad because someone else trees you. That's not fair. it's not fair but sometimes just how the dice get rolled. You're justifying bad behavior of that justifying it. I'm saying that your actions have consequences and a lot of times like the way you treat. Somebody really affects them going forward and a lot of times like that's not shit. You can control my arguments that someone could have done that too big. And that's why he is the way he is. But i don't really know anyways so done this show so old. They're coming back but not without samantha. They're doing a movie but without smell. Yeah a couple of movies. Miley was actually. My only had a cameo in one of them. I think it was the second one. Have you seen disco parker lately. I saw today and she has a full head of gray hair and she is rocking it and it is the sickest thing i've ever seen like you go girlfriend. I think she looks so bad. Ass will go anyway. That's what i've been watching. This is something i think about a lot. Your thought about temperature. In what way like your body temperature yet so your body temperature is one hundred degrees not quite but yeah ninety eight point six around there but the temperature outside that we like is at seventy 'cause if it's a hundred outside we're like this is so hot but why sesame and he said because this is as we are we should think that's normal may sense because we are some food and it's ninety degrees fucking cold. This needs to be two hundred degrees. The soup is soup is cold. It's only one hundred degrees. It needs to be two hundred degrees. Doesn't make any sense and also like get no water if it's seventy degrees because what we'd like on the outside temperature. It's fucking freezing. It's got to be like eighty. It's gotta be it's gotta be like one ten which is higher than what we like. You know i've never thought about this to tell you. The truth was out temperatures. I feel like it's part of the simulation being fucked up. Maybe because our body temperature is so high that we like to be in a colder temperature toy level at out or something i guess but why are. We trying to radiate heat out. You know like i don't know. Yeah it's weird right. Yeah i've really stand to have a guest on this. Show that the doctor answer some of these hard hitting questions yeah. This is not a favorite by any means. But it's just so funny. Lord has a song called stoned at the nail salon relate. Listen it no. It's insane bird. Dogs walk stronger. john. I mean i think a lot of why have to use relate to that song and if you smoke weed you probably gone. I don't fucking know. What am i trying to stretch. I mean your mom can relate to that for sure. One hundred percent window so i. We've played her before she's a friend. Her name is taylor bono. She's got song called. Remember the bad and it's so sad and it's so good all right now me all the way then remember the. I call a bro. Gotta remember the bad is not said leon revisionist history got remember the battle like the message and then coldplay has out a new song. Do it actually love it. Coloratura can't be saying that right. Can't that's how it said it though. Laura co laura to our colorado hurrah era to de down loneliness is Colo cheer police. We dreamed barrau. The men or eason's juice love come pouring. Everyone's allow with feathered crass Sa- chris barnes seen a lot of pink floyd during the pandemic long for because i loved it. I mean limping loyd will play live yes. They're so good. Yeah they're they're one of those bands. You're like i'm a fan of this band than you go. And you know every fucking song. Like well i guess i am. You know. I know all the songs they're set just always look so good in all the facts awaits also good. It was like when i went to go see snow patrol knows like i don't really know what he's no patrol songs. I went there. And i was like. Oh yeah no. I know all the songs scott okay. I guess it must overthrow fan. You go i. Warren drugs have a new track out. Tell just into it. I did but you didn't wanna play it so maybe it's not good now. It is classic war on drugs. I'm good ain't broke. Don't fix one of my favorite bands. Listen to what i'm high on. Gasps drew terming. Maybe what iranian. Yeah you're right. That's a pretty pretty typical anything else. Hang right before we go. We want to say a big thank hung out with us on that final patriae on a last fight friday. That was a lot of fun. Sorry my dad tried to fuck in you know. Get in on it. Typical dad shit so funny. Thank god i wasn't because he didn't really understand what it was but it very well could have been like some very important business thing you know and i was like. What are you doing like you like you coming in being like. Hey we gotta go to dinner in thirty minutes. I'm like yeah. I don't worry typical. I'm good. I got on the schedule. Yeah so you know. We'll still posting content in you have access to the discord chat room until the end of the month. So still got that going for ya. We asked patriots out there who is going to be. The next bachelor will say. Andrew lawrence had someone new to the franchise. And lauren no happening. But everyone's saying andrew except for gm says michael andrew and worth mayor for all right. Well i think that's everything all right all right all right. I wanna get stoned at nail salon. Now you love. I want to go get stone the nelson. I don't know if i love the song so much nelson tomorrow. Should i give it a track get stoned fine because you're going to think all the nail salon ladies there like talking shit about you. I'm sure pressure you know judging hodgin you being like look at this entitled stupid schick. But they're doing their their language or whatever. You're gonna get all freaked out. Then you're like. Oh no my ghetto. Fungi finger fungi. So my sister. My sister got finger. Fungi from amana petty. And oh my god. I gotta watch out. Make sure that they have the tools that come out of a plastic bag makes the lion so now. Here's there's some things to be paranoid about when you go to the nail salon. Great well are you going anywhere anytime soon. I'm going to chicago on. Wednesday did comes out. Shy town bro. Her lollapalooza fun do some drugs with some cool famous musicians and tell me about it later. Like my sister. Yeah well. I don't know where she is in a recovery. Now but you know what i'm saying some cool to see see you later. Love your love. You guys china so i just saw on chicks office twitter. Hold on. i'm would you can leave. Send look that tara who made out with connor on mental is a musician and has a new song out today. that's awfully convenient. It called kissing boys. I think it's called play with fire. Ou okay gifts. I wonder if she lives in nashville. Ugly listen to do all right com We'll say this. The lord's but looks great and the cover of this thing you know like does yeah. Just chef's kiss. Did you know that because of gobert. Nineteen up to a hundred and sixty. Three million people are at risk of being pushed back into extreme poverty by the end of twenty twenty one with collective action. We can change this. Global citizen is a movement of engaged citizens who used voice to encourage action. Today's biggest issues like defending the planet demanding equity and defeating poverty by joining global citizen. You can learn take action an exclusive rewards from your favorite celebrities and brands and get access to exclusive global citizen events and festivals. If you're ready to join the movement changing the world visit global citizen dot org forward slash act. Now for more info that's global citizen dot org forward slash act now. This show has been brought to you by podcast nation.
The Law That Kept 2 Generations Of Immigrants Out Of The U.S.
"From WHYY in Philadelphia. I'm Terry gross with fresh air today. How the junk science of eugenics and anti immigration sentiment merged in nineteen twenty four restrictive law that kept out Jews talion, Greeks and eastern Europeans. It's the subject of a new book by today's guest Daniel Okrand, one justification for keeping certain groups of people out of America was that they scored poorly on intelligence tests badly designed tests with questions like this is bud Fisher, a choose one outfielder cartoonist or novelist now if you've just been the country for five years, and you don't speak English terribly. Well, how are you possibly going to answer a question like that oak rent? Here's echoes of the past in today's anti immigrant rhetoric and John powers looks back on seven seasons of HBO satirical, political series, veep, which concludes Sunday that's on fresh air. Regard to talk about an earlier part of immigration history. When is my guest. Daniel Okrand writes, a perverse form of science gave respectability to the drastic limits imposed on the number of Jews Italians Greeks poles and various other eastern and southern Europeans seeking to come to America. The quote science was eugenics which theorized that traits like intelligence and morality were inherited and therefore through selective reading you can improve the quality of the human race. Of course, the converse was also believed to be true certain individuals or groups of people would pollute the bloodline those undesirables where the people the restrictive immigration law of nineteen twenty four was designed to keep out. Okrand is the author of the new book, the guarded gate bigotry eugenics and the law that kept two generations of Jews talionis and other European emigrants out of America. He here's the. Rhetoric of that era echoing today Daniel Okrand, welcome back to fresh air. I'm very happy to be here. Did you write about anti immigration movements of the past to put President Trump's hardline immigration policies into historical context? No. I can't say that. I did that just happened to be an unfortunate coincidence or maybe commercially a fortunate coincidence, I began to write this book because I stumbled across the store of eugenics in America in the early part of the twentieth century, and as I looked further into it. In addition to those things that many people have written about particularly planned breeding, and sterilization, I stumbled across this immigration story where you gen-x was used as a primary weapon in the effort to keep southern and eastern Europeans out of the country, resulting a law passed in nineteen twenty four in place for forty one years that really gave the lie to the notion that we are a nation of Immigra. That's so your grandparents like, so many Americans grandparents great grandparents came to the US in the early nineteen hundreds before the restrictive nineteen twenty four act. Tell us a little bit what immigration from Europe or eastern Europe was like then what did it take to get entry into America? Of to get entry into America before the ninth. I in nineteen twenty one act you needed to get on about come across the ocean show up at Ellis Island and not have a contagious disease or any other very obvious disability or criminal record or be suspected of certain criminal activities, but beyond that the door was wide wide. Open to the huddled masses that Emma Lazarus wrote about and describe us a little bit Ellis Island was like in the early nineteen hundreds Ellis Island opens in eighteen ninety two and within a few years. It becomes one of the busiest port spots anywhere in the US. There are hundreds of thousands of people in some years millions of people coming through Ellis Island, long snaking lines detention dormitories hospitalization areas. There was a very very busy place in a very alienating place for a lot of people because of the examination that. People had to go through particularly for to berkey losses, Tacoma and other other diseases, but once through the line and then onto the ferry boat that took people to Manhattan, it was really a wonderful place to have been is interesting you describe the detention dorms and Ellis Island is being really large rooms divided into cages. They put people into cages really to kind of as as holding pounds cages. Maybe a little bit too scary. A word they were they were y wire walls that kept people apart from other people, and it was for segregation by sex segregation by people who might have diseases. It wasn't detention remotely like the detention that people coming across the southern border are submitting today, you sound a little bit about why. There was such a large surge of immigrants in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds a couple of things that happen in the late nineteenth century that lead to the enormous immigration. That begins really around eighteen eighty and then goes into the retro rockets fire around eighteen ninety one was the ex the creation of a continent wide railroad neck network in Europe that enabled people from the interior parts of many nations to got to ports. There was also the. Promise of something better that is each family or family member would come to the US and right back to what to to relatives at home, the streets may not be paved with gold, and they may be asking us to pay them. But there's real opportunity here. Desperate poverty, particularly in southern Italy. And other areas was a driving force for many, many people, and if he could scrape together the dollars that could get you to a port and onto a boat you would want to come. And of course for Jews. There were the progress that were Jews were living basically in ghettos, and they were being attacked. So they had a good year to fleet the Jews of the Russian empire. Now. Poland Lithuania, Ukraine, various other modern nations where had beginning in eighteen eighty two. There was a severe restriction on their rights under under our Alexsandr. Not only were there pogroms which people were subject to. Horrible physical crimes, but also limitation aware. You could live what occupation you could go into freedom of movement was radically tailed, and the people had a very very strong reason to oughta get out. So during the spirit of the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds before the restrictive immigration laws that laws that we'll be talking about momentarily immigrants that were considered good immigrants and immigrants that were considered dirty filthy stupid immigrants. What was the dividing line? Well, it depends on who's doing the considering. But I think we're talking specifically about the Protestant. Elites of the northeast New York, Boston Philadelphia who had enormous political power at the time, and they saw immigrants coming from the countries that they had come from and people have similar ethnic background, which is to say the countries of north western Europe, the UK the Netherlands Scandinavia, Germany, all Protestant countries. They were okay. And those who were coming from the Catholic the Jewish countries were simply not and there was almost. Universal except I suppose for France. But the eastern and southern Europeans were looked upon by some of these people as really less than human and the sociologist Edward Ross. Who was later the national chairman of the American Civil Liberties union, he described this Riveria liberal and progressive man, he described looking at the immigrants the eastern European emigrants in union square, New York and seeing what he described us here suit low brow big faced persons of obviously low mentality. Acts like people who clearly belong in skins in waddled huts at the close of the ice age. It's a pretty terrifying image and characteristic of those who wish to close the door. So the first exclusionary immigration law passed in eighteen eighty two and that was the Chinese exclusion act to keep out both skilled and unskilled Chinese laborers. Why were the Chinese people singled out by that law? I mean Chinese people built the the railroads that's why they were singled out. One of the reasons because it was a labor issue. The the the railroad magnate Jim hill, he said, why would I want to hire one American to do this kind of work when guy when I can hire six Chinese for the same amount of money to do it. So the the notion of the jobs that were disappearing to the Chinese. They created an enormous backlash in the nascent labor movement of the late nineteenth century. And then of course, there was the racial issue. They were different they were different. And therefore by the code of the time and of too many errors they were lesser as well. So let's talk about the science of the junk science of. So what was the, you know, like pseudoscientific basis of this? Georgian of eugenics is in England. And in the latter half of the nineteenth century, it really comes out of Darwin in a way out of some very good science, Darwin upsets, the entire balance of of the scientific world with his discovery, and and propagation of the ideas of evolution. And then once you establish that we are not all derived from the same people from Adam and eve, which was the prevailing view of the time. Then we learned that we are not all the same. We are not all brothers. If you wish to take that particular position, and the early Genesis believe that and thought that we could control the nature of the population of a nation. The UK at first or the US by selective breeding. Let's have only the good breed with the good. And let's not let the less than good breed Francis. Caulton who was actually a cousin of Darwin's? Who was the the man who named eugenics was. I most vocal advocate. He. Suggested early on that the UK find the five thousand best young men in the five thousand best young women and pair them off in arranged marriages, which would take place in one huge ceremony in Westminster Abbey presided over by Queen Victoria, and each of these families, these new couples would be given a yearly stipend so instead of working they could get down to the business of making better people better babies for the UK. Now, this was kind of a positive view in a way. But it implied the opposite that became popular in the US that we have to stop the reproduction of those who don't improve our our so called race who don't make the country a better place in this negative form of eugenics is the one that begins to bubble into popularity in the US around nineteen ten nineteen twelve. So it wasn't just like intelligence that was considered to be an inherited trait. It was like morality. Yeah. That's really stunning thing. You find some very well established scientist. It's Fairfield Osborn. The head of the American Museum of natural history for twenty five years. He outright declared that it is not just intelligence. It is also morality that is inherited and criminality is inheritance really stunning to. Thank the people who are very very well credentialed in the natural sciences could believe these things. But if you begin your belief by by thinking that certain people's are inferior to other people's it's very easy to adapt. Your science to suit your own prejudice. And the Genesis had ways of evaluating which ethnic groups were the smartest in which. We're the idiots. Let's talk a little bit about some of us tests. Go go. Go ahead. Well, there were any number of tested in various places almost all of them of equal on reliability determining whether to determine whether people were of sufficient intelligence, one of the most famous ones was the so-called alpha test that was given to nearly two million soldiers in World War One by Robert M yorkies who is now memorialized in the yorkies primate research center in Atlanta, federal facility, yorkies gave tested included questions on that were sort of jeopardy questions owned reverse in the question like is bud Fisher, a choose one outfielder cartoonist or novelist now if you've just been the country for five years, and you don't speak English terribly. Well, how you possibly going to answer a question like that? But it was taken seriously as a measure of intelligence to such a degree that Carl Brigham who later became famous for inventing, the SAT Princeton psychologist, he said, well, these are the kind of. Questions if you know the answers that shows that you've been in America, and you're an American, and that's what we're trying to establish. We're trying to find people who deserve to be in America. Don't mention a couple of other questions here because these are just these crappy great. Yeah. Okay. The why and dot is a kind of horse foul cattle or granite? All right. I'm thinking, really hard. The beads of sweater forming on my forehead, I'm going to go with cattle. You're wrong. I looked at up. See there's a dot chicken. So kick me out of the country. I don't. Standards. Do not. Okay. So who are some of the famous powerful respected people who supported you debt, eugenics and eugenics based restrictions on immigration. Well, there any number of them ranging from the political figures like Theodore Roosevelt of early on and Henry Cabot lodge and then in the scientific community. I mentioned Henry Fairfield Osborn of the American Museum of natural history. Charles Davenport of the cold, spring harbor laboratory who was truthfully the the leading geneticist and in the US at the at the time. And then people of surprising provenance, I'd say Margaret Sanger for one is she I mean, she was the the mother of the birth control movement. Right. And if he really stopped to think about it. There's a real connection between guy idea birth control. It's controlled breeding and the entire eugenics movement was predicated on the idea of controlling breeding Sanger, I believe is a little bit of a complicated story because she would have made in the lines with anyone who support. The birth control movement, the Genesis by and large dead. So she made common cause with them where it gets squirrelly is she does get very close to some of them. And at times, she makes statements about look at the horrible things going on in the slums the slums were overwhelmingly eastern and southern European immigrants at the time. We have to stop their reproduction or the slums are going to get worse. We have to keep them out of the country or the slums you're going to get worse. You quote Cavin Kulik just before he was worn in as vice president in nineteen twenty one in good, good, housekeeping. He was quoted as saying biological laws will tell us that certain divergent people will not mix or blend the dead weight of alien accretion stifles national progress. Wow. This is a this is a critical moment when Coolidge who's about to step into the vice presidency. He's been the governor of Massachusetts. Makes this absolutely declared of statement without any hint of a doubt hovering over it that biological laws have proved. In it. And from that moment on it became sort of respectable to obey the biological laws to keep out the eastern and southern Europeans. One didn't have to use terms. Like Italians Jews Greeks Romanians on Gary. It was simply those people who are deficient scientifically. Of course. The science was bogus and easily and soon discredited. But it carried the day. I think that there would have been immigration restriction anyway in one thousand nine twenty four, but this made it respectable so World War One intervenes. While this movement is is growing in popularity. What impacted world were one have on the agenda movement? Among other things it yields a new piece of terminology that plays right into the immigration debate. It was called by some of the leading propagandists for the genyk idea the white civil war. Here was white nations fighting against other white nations, and they were nations largely of northern and western Europe, killing each other and not only killing each other. But presumably the soldiers who were dying. We're the best of those nations. This was an alarm that went off loud and clear among the Genesis. They saw that it was an opportunity to spread their doctrine further by pointing out the damage that had been wrought by that war. The other thing that happened is at the end of the war unleashed, another huge wave of immigration into the country. There hadn't been a lot coming from Europe between nineteen fourteen and nineteen eighteen but when the war was over that devastated. Con continent. Was beginning to empty out of people coming to the US, you know, one of the leading proponents of immigration restriction, the man who really financed. The movement was a really pretty otherwise wonderful man named Joseph Leah Boston. He was a great progressive. He supported all sorts of civil rights. He supported women's rights. He thought that the schools of Boston should be kept open at night so immigrants could be educated, and he became chairman of the Boston school committee. So he could arrange that, but at the same time he was writing such things to friends as saying all Europe might soon be drained of Jews to its benefit, no doubt. But not to ours. He feared that the US would become he said a day go nation and explained he believed as a result in exclusion by race and World War One popularized. Those ideas it enabled them to spread. Here's this this new unleashing of a stream of immigrants coming in. It must be stopped up. So in nine. Two thousand seventeen an Immigration Act is passed in the US that has a literacy test component in the literacy tests had been very controversial part of previous immigration laws that were vetoed. So what was the literacy test designed to do literacy tests was a literacy test was designed to create a filter that would really keep out the uneducated and the uneducated were much more likely to come from be suspect nations, and they were to come from north western Europe, where levels of education were much higher. When Henry Cabot lodge introduced that Bill in congress in eighteen ninety five he said that the countries it would affect directly are those in eastern and southern Europe where we don't want so many people to becoming from and it wouldn't stop the the influx of people from north western Europe. It was vetoed by Grover Cleveland, another such law twelve years later. Fifteen years later was vetoed by William Howard Taft. Then Woodrow Wilson vetoed twice and finally nineteen seventeen on the brink of war it passes, and what had had going for it at that time was the support the beginning efflorescence of the Utanics movement. So it was no longer racism. It was science Wilson despite his own well-documented prejudice against black people. He knew it was politically inadvisable to be aggressively opposing the the continued immigration of from nations where newcomers had already won the vote. But when you apply the idea of science to it, it's no longer prejudicial and from nineteen seventeen forward through the passage of the first restriction law nineteen twenty one and then the permanent law nineteen twenty four the argument. No, no longer uses the names of any of those countries. It doesn't mention people by race or ethnicity. It is simply a question of numbers coming from certain places. My guest is journalist Daniel, okay. Rant. His new book is called the guarded gate bigotry eugenics and the law that kept two generations of jus talionis and other European immigrants out of America. After a break. We'll talk about how America's eugenics movement and the nineteen twenty four restrictive immigration law where cited approvingly by Hitler, and the Nazis and critic drawn powers will give us his take on why the HBO satirical political series, veep is so funny the seventh and final season concludes Sunday this is fresh air. This message comes from NPR sponsor each rate. Investing your money shouldn't require moving mountains. No matter how much or how little experience you have each raid makes investing simple along with great value. They provide the tools and support you need to navigate the markets all to help your money work hard for you. For more information. Visit each Ray dot com slash NPR each rate. Securities LLC member, sipc. Let's get back to our interview with Daniel Okrand. About his new book, the guarded gate bigotry eugenics and the law that kept two generations of Jews Italians and other European immigrants out of America in one thousand twenty four a new Immigration Act is passed that is very exclusionary. And you say it marked the culmination of three decades of agitation and debate about immigration. What were the restrictions or quotas? That were set up for different groups are two parts to it. I there's an overall quota at various times, it was three hundred thousand people then it got chopped onto I believe it was a hundred sixty two thousand people, but the question the second part is where did these people come from? And it was decided that well, let's continue to reflect the population of America as it has become. So we will decide where people can come from based on how many people of their same nationality. We're already here. So to us really reductive simple math. If ten percent of the current American population came from country A than ten percent of that year's immigrants could come from country A, except and this is probably the most malign and dishonest thing that came out of this entire movement. They didn't do this on the basis of the nineteen twenty census which have been conducted just for years before or the nineteen ten or even the nine thousand nine hundred. But those numbers were based on the population in eighteen ninety before the large immigration from eastern and southern Europe had begun. So to any question about whether there was any racist or anti semitic or anti Italian intent this established there clearly was let's find that moment in history, the keeps out more of these people than any other. So if you take the Italians and the year before the the first of the quota laws went to fat more than two hundred. At twenty thousand talion came into the US and the year after under the quota. It was fewer than four thousand and similar numbers stretched across eastern and southern Europe. Suddenly the door has slammed in the faces of those people who had been coming in the largest numbers based not only on bogus science. But based on a manipulation of American history itself it had to be based on they said on the eighteen ninety population. And the intent of that was clear one of the really interesting consequences of this. If you read the thirty eight articles, the I think it's about twenty pages of small type in the nineteen twenty four Immigration Act. You do not see anywhere the words Italian or Jew or Greek or Turk or poll, they don't have to mention the countries because they have this absolutely innocent seeming numerical equation to rely on. So did the genetics movement directly figure into the passage of the immigration. Act of nineteen twenty four unquestionably unquestionably. It made it a palatable act because it was based on science or presumed science. It wasn't this isn't prejudice. We love these people. But they are not as good as we are. I think there would have been a restriction law in any case. But this cleansed the restriction law, and I think cemented into place in a way that it. Otherwise might not have been. It's fascinating to read in your book how Hitler and the Nazis were drying on the American eugenics movement who like strengthen their own movement. There were over almost using some of the American eugenics quote findings as guidelines for themselves. You know, Hitler becomes chancellor in nineteen thirty three, but he writes mine camp, or at least he publishes it in nineteen twenty five which is one year after the Immigration Act of nineteen twenty four as past and. New site. A passage from mine comb in which Hitler directly refers to America. He refers as the United States is the ones this is a quote, one state in which at least week beginnings toward a better conception of citizenship are noticeable among them simply excluding certain races from naturalization and from there. He goes on to quote in later speeches and writings Madison grant becomes a hero of his and most importantly, the American eugenicist even the most respectable of them had for by the time. Hitler takes power in nineteen thirty two thirty three for nearly three decades, the German, new Genesis and the American new Genesis have been working together to develop their presumed science. They were collaborators in a in a more respectable sense of the word. But then the collaboration becomes deadly an awful once Hitler takes over in nineteen thirty three addressing convey. Action of of doctors who are engaged in genyk research. He said I cannot do without you for a single day, not a single our if not for you. If you fail me, then all is lost and the all was his entirely eugenic view of mankind. The superiority of the area and race the deficiency of various peoples who had disabilities that brought on the euthanasia of hundreds of thousands it all kind of flows directly from the the previous research Ernst Rudin who is a well known well established psychiatrist and eugenic researcher and who had been very connected to Charles Davenport into the other Americans who have been doing eugenic research. He said only through Hitler's work has our thirty year long dream of translating race hygiene into action finally become a reality, they celebrated it I do want to quote, one more thing from the Nazis, and this is. The official Nazi handbook for law and legislation and it cited the American immigration law, the nineteen twenty four law as a model for Germany. The notion that Germany was an aberration that Hitler ISM was something that just grew like a terribly offensive weed out of the ruins of World War One in the Weimar Republic. It's given the lie by seeing how connected it was two things that were going on on the side of the Atlantic. So the Nazis were in part inspired by the American eugenics movement and the nineteen th twenty four exclusionary Immigration Act. Once the Genesis in the US became aware of what the Nazis were doing. They parted ways from the Nazis from Germany. Well, I would say that the Genesis themselves didn't, but the institutions that had been sponsoring the Genesis that had provided them with with money and office space and research steps, they're the ones that ran away from it. The museum of natural history of certain science departments at Columbia anthropologists at Harvard. The Rockefeller Foundation the Carnegie. Institution of Washington. They suddenly realize oh my God. Look what we have done. Many of the Genesis did some of them were out. Extremely apologetic retractions even before the rise of Hitler by the end of the nineteen twenties. Brigham whom I mentioned before the man who created the SAT test and had studied the so-called deficiency of the eastern southern Europeans. He retracted everything that he had said, but some of them some of them stayed very much with the program and one key figure men in Harry Laughlin who worked with Davenport at the cold spring harbor laboratory. He actually was awarded an honorary degree by Heidelberg university in nineteen thirty six for the citation said for being a leader and racial policy in the United States, and he was very proud to receive it. But we're not basically killed off the agenda movement as a reputable movement. Yes, I think that by the time. We are fully aware of the depredations of Hitler and the Nazis eugenics has suffered a fatal wound. There were remnants that continued and are remnants continued today. But as a meaningful social presence, it was gone. Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk more. My guest is Daniel Okrand. His new book is called the guarded gate bigotry eugenics and the law that kept two generations of Jews Italians and other European immigrants out of America. We'll be right back. This is fresh air support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from the United States postal service every day innovative companies are reinventing the way business happens. But none of that is possible without the right people people who get packages to over one hundred and fifty million delivery points affordably and on time with the latest technology and expertise who can help you deliver the future of commerce, the United States postal service. See why they deliver more commerce pack. Ages two homes than anyone in the country at USPS dot com slash future. Every day you wake up to that long to do list while up first gives you the latest news in about ten minutes. So you feel all caught up in the world while catching up on your life. And hey, don't forget to walk the dog. Listen up. I every morning from NPR news. My guest is Daniel okra nt. His new book is called the guarded gate bigotry eugenics and the law that kept two generations of Jews Italians and other European immigrants out of America. So we've been talking about exclusionary immigration laws in the first part of the twentieth century, and then the Nazis in World War Two kind of end the legitimacy this the, you know, the pseudo legitimacy of the eugenics movement. Let's skip ahead to how changing alliances in the nineteen. Fifties led to changes in the restrictions on immigration. A couple of things are in play. I as early as nineteen forty three because of our lions with Shangcai, shucks, Chinese the restrictions on Chinese are greatly relieved after being in place for more than sixty years when we get past nineteen fifty there's been so little immigration from these so-called suspect countries that it isn't an issue really in the body politic in any meaningful way. And in fact, the largest immigration in the nineteen fifties. From Europe is coming from the so-called captive nations. The eastern European countries behind the iron curtain, these people are suddenly made into heroes of they're not so horrible anymore. We can let them in and this culminates in nineteen sixty five Lyndon Johnson really is part of the great society puts through congress and signs an act that puts an end to the quotas. It ends the restrictions that were based on nationality on ethnishity and on race the nineteen sixty five act. Simply puts a number in place that we can have several hundred thousand people coming into this country. And it doesn't matter where they come from. So there was a decades between the nine hundred thousand four exclusionary Immigration Act and the nineteen sixty five immigration and nationality act that ended those exclusionary by country or race or ethnic group policies. Right. So think about the consequences. Forty one years of these laws being in place forty one years in which the you know, the depression, absolutely ravaged southern Italy in a horrible horrible ways. Among other countries think also of the rise of the Nazi German programs, and the holocaust euthanasia and the US congress during this period is refusing to modify the nineteen twenty four act at all in nineteen thirty nine laws introduced in congress to allow twenty thousand German Jewish children into the country as an emergency measure and congress defeats that and fact Franklin Roosevelt's cousin a woman named Laura hoteling who happened to be married to the. Gratien Commissioner US immigration Commissioner fact, she sat at the time of this effort to bring in twenty thousand German Jewish children. She said twenty thousand lovely children will grow up to be twenty thousand ugly adults and this was the prevailing attitude that had been in place for decades and was not even jarred by in the slightest by what we knew was happening in Germany, the law stays in place, even after World War Two when Europe is almost an endless continuous metropolis of displaced persons camps and stays in place throughout the nineteen fifties. It kind of beggars belief to think that it stayed in place that long, and it absolutely is destructive to one's feeling of the possibilities of America to think of the the number of people, the hundreds of thousands, even millions of people who might have come in those years, and we're unable to and we know what happened to them. So let's jump ahead to the present. I know you're wrote this book not expecting it to coincide with Trump's hardline policies and rhetoric on immigration, but the book does coincide with that now. So does his rhetoric about Mexicans and South Americans coming to the US and his insistence on building a wall on the southern border. Does it echo themes of the earlier, anti immigration movements very much? So particularly the singling out of people by nationality. I think that one could say that today's central Americans and today's Muslims Lewis, please not forget that are the equivalent of nineteen twenty fours Jusin Italians or reverse at the Jews in Italian then were treated and regarded as these Latin American and Muslim nationalities are today when you choose. Your immigrants when you choose your next door neighbors on the basis of their ethnicity or the race rather than the nature of the individual Hemmer herself urine gauged in this case of fischel legal discrimination. Is there any specific rhetoric that you hear echoes of the past in today? I think that the rhetoric of criminality, the attribution of criminality, not to individual criminals, but to hundreds of thousands of people of of of various nationalities, that's very similar to the notion of moral deficiency that was hurled by the Genesis at the southern eastern Europeans of the nineteen thousand twenty s you know, you write about how anti-semitism was normalized. It was just part of popular rhetoric. An example of that. It's an important thing to remember that among the upper classes of the wasp aristocracy, the Piscopo ac- of the. The northeast that it was normative to be an anti Semite would almost be surprising to find somebody who wasn't. And I do quote, a young woman. Well, educated of very very fine family at the age of thirty three writing a letter to her mother-in-law saying that she had been at a party where she met an interesting man, but he was quote, very Jew. That man was Felix Frankfurter layer supreme court Justice. Of course, she also said that she'd rather be hung than attend another Jew party where she was she said appalled by all the talk of money jewels, and Sables really repugnant repellent comments that thirty three year old woman was Eleanor Roosevelt before she broadened her horizon and changed her view and became the absolute epitome, the paragon of tolerance. So if you figure that even somebody like Eleanor Roosevelt could be thinking these things you get a sense of how wide spread and how deeply rooted. They were. You fair that talk about Muslims and Mexicans as being normalized like that now. Yes, I do of. I think that there are many of us who attend the lessons of history and have a different view on the nature of the human species who are resisting that's being normalized. But I think that one sees cross the country th this feeling that there's a reason why we are looking particularly at the Muslims and the Latin Americans to my knowledge all the research shows that the antipathy toward immigrants from those countries is greatest in those parts of the nation where there are the fewest of them and those of us who live in large cities or cities that have been previously have become havens for Muslim or Latin American immigrants the anti-immigrant feeling is much much lower. So we know something we live with these people. And we realized that they are people the way that we are people. Those who aren't familiar with these people can be manipulated and told to fear and told to hate and to have those feelings of fear and hate normalized said do you think that there's been a constant strain in American history? And sometimes it's hidden, and sometimes it's visible, and sometimes it small and sometimes it's larger, but nevertheless, a constant strain of xenophobia anti-semitism. And of course, racism, it goes back to the eighteenth century Benjamin Franklin wrote with horror about the Germans who were moving into Pennsylvania in the seventeen fifty s and how they and their language were were corrupting influences on the colony of Pennsylvania. It never goes away. It moves in cycles, and Zina phobia, the first expression is we are the land of the free. Our doors are open come sit beside the golden door you held masses yearning to breathe free. And then the next expression is. Keep out, and then that goes away and back comes more open view of it in nineteen sixty five when Johnson signed the Hart celler act, which ended the quota act of nineteen twenty four as I write in the book, I said the future of opened immigration for those who really believed in nondiscriminatory open immigration. It looked as bright as the brilliant. Sun overhead as he signed it on liberty island sitting next to the statue of liberty. That's fifty years ago, and it looked great. And now, it doesn't look so great. And let's hope that that version will come back soon enough Daniel Okram, thank you so much for talking with us. It's been my pleasure. Daniel Oakland is the author of the guarded gate bigotry eugenics and the law that kept two generations of jus talionis and other European immigrants out of America. After a break critic, Jon powers will look back on the HBO satirical political series, veep, which concludes Sunday after seven seasons this is fresh air. Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from mayo clinic when you're looking for a clear diagnosis and a clear path forward, you know, where to go mayoclinic find out more at mayo clinic dot org slash answers. What would you do? If you found out story that it shaped your identity was ally. NPR's new podcast white lies investigates. Emerhed in Selma Alabama from nineteen sixty five at exposes the conspiracy that kept it unsold. Until now Whitelaw's start listening Tuesday Sunday nights. He's the end of the seventh and final season of veep the acclaimed HBO political satirical series, starring Julia, Louis Dreyfuss as a politician, she's won an acting. Emmy for each of the shows preceding, six seasons are critic at large powers doesn't know whether she'll win number seven. But he says veep has been a strangely sunny show about the darkness of politics as game of thrones builds to the final showdown with the. Evil Queen Searcy Lancaster. It seems only fair to tip. Our hats to HBO's other great power hungry woman. I'm referring, of course to Selina Meyer from veep. The hilariously scabs political satire that comes to an end this Sunday. Played by Julia Louis Dreyfuss, the inept foul mouth and boundlessly selfish, Selena it surely the most groundbreaking Lee reprehensible heroin ever to front an American TV comedy, which may be why she's so much fun to watch. To be honest. I didn't like veep at first when it was about Selena's powerlessness is vice president but in its second season Selena began to get a sniff of power eventually she'd wind up president, albeit briefly and the show suddenly kicked into gear. It still roaring along in season seven which finds Selena jetting from Iowa to New Hampshire to South Carolina as she seeks the presidency yet again. No fee has never been interested in issues or the party side of politics, Selena has not even been identified as a democrat or Republican and the show tweaks everyone evangelicals, knee jerk liberals, Muslim bashers PC, lesbians, anti vaxxers. It says that doing politics especially inside the beltway is basically an unholy cross between living in a barnyard and going to high school, the people that attracts horrible or become so in order to get ahead. Everybody is unprincipled except for the dumb ones. Of course. It's tricky for political satire to have sharp teeth when it avoids ideology in real life figures, you never hear the name Trump, for example, or Bernie still the current season has done a witty job of folding in themes that feel relevant be at the media trumpeting mere rumors about candidates, Selena becoming the beneficiary of foreign interference in the election. Fans or the repellent congressman Jona Ryan played by Timothy Simon's, spawning hashtag not knee movement of women who feel violated by his claims to have dated here Selena and her campaign team try to figure out how to win the vote of less educated white voters. I then you'd have to find a way with non college educated whites like what appeals to them. Okay. What appeals to them? What do they want? Polling shows their main once our jobs education, and an adequate safety can speak to that finish meant to be denied to African Americans. Listen, we have to find a way to say those things without actually saying when a dog was yes, exactly what you could talk about charter schools mentioned something it's like a dog whisper could reject an endorsement from a pro confederacy group dog rig. Splitting station I needed something wild. Not too loud like train show. That's droning a dog snowmobile. Why would I know what that even sounds like I mean serious? Floor. Yeah. That's right. As this clip suggests one veeps pleasures has always been its own pleasure in language such verbal playfulness extends to the obscene as the show boasts the most gleefully inventive profanity since the heyday of dead woods. Elsewhere engine, the very Shakespeare of foul language. Nobody on veep swears harder than Selena who in carnage are present day image of the politician as a spoiled narcissistic self promoter who believes in nothing except winning power simply to have it insecure and driven she'll cheerfully through her own daughter's fiance under the bus, she's ignorant of everything from the constitution to the ideal. She supposed to be espousing her one worthy, even helping free Tibet only matters to her because it can be used to let her run for president again, Selena could easily come off as depressingly dark. But there's a reason Louis Dreyfuss has surpassed Lucille ball as television's most honored comic. Actress bursting with comic charisma, she flings herself into this juicy role with an amoral delight that strangely upbeat if not infectious besides silliness, no worse than everyone around her preening womanisers, backstabbing senators corrupt lobbyists fo enlightened asp. Donors who got rich, ripping off hip, hop musicians. And even own ex husband a philandering real estate. Crook, Selena is enabled by staffers who either fawn over her. I cur dim personal aide. Gary that's Tony HALE or more often think she's a bleeping moron like her hustling chief-of-staff played by anti-muslim sqi seeing their bosses a meal ticket and a step up the ladder. They don't believe in anything either. Such free willing cynicism. Mix tempting to call veep. The farcical d'appel ganger of game of thrones. If this isn't quite accurate for despite its Hobbs in war of all against all game of thrones gives us genuine heroes. This isn't true a veep. A live action cartoon in which everyone is either a fool a nave or a monster. Nobody gets off Scot free including the audience. We hope you enjoy watching these pathetic nasty creatures the show says with a cheery grin, you let them run your country. John powers reviewed veep, which ends at seven season run on Sunday Friday on fresh air will feature interviews from our archives with two stars of veep. Julia Louis Dreyfuss Antoni hail tomorrow on fresh air will examine some of the unanswered questions about Donald Trump's relationship with Deutsche Bank. Our guests will be David enrich of the New York Times who's investigated how and why the Bank kept loaning. Jump money. Even after he defaulted on tens of millions in loans. Trump has sued to prevent the banned from leasing his financial records to to congressional committees. That have subpoenaed them I hope you'll join us. Freshers executive producers, Danny Miller, I technically director and engineers do Bentham our associate producer for digital media is Molly seavy nesper. Roberta shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry gross.
A Conversation With CBS Co-Anchor Gayle King; 'Game Of Thrones' Finale
"This message comes from on point sponsor indeed. If you're hiring with indeed, you can post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard. Get started at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. From NPR in WBZ are Boston. I'm David Folkenflik in. This is on point. Gayle king of CBS news is hitting on all cylinders. In one interview she quietly rebuked accused superstar in another. She held a disgraced governor to account. Most recently, she's been palling around with the newest British royals after decades of being defined in relation to others. Gayle king has emerged as the one fixed element of CBS's news. Division, a truth teller on the TV news business, metoo, and more. This hour on point oppress past my conversation with CBS news star. Gayle king whose refashioned show CBS this morning will make its debut on Monday. Join us call right now. What questions do you have for guilt king? What do you want to know about CPS? What do you want to know about the TV news business about the alchemy and chemistry that's involved about the tribulations in trials that CBS and her colleagues at the network have endured join us, anytime at on point radio dot org, or on Twitter and Facebook. At on point radio to give you a sense of how hard working guilt, king really is. She's whisking her way his to this moment. She'll be joining us here in just a moment or two. I want to give you a couple of excerpts of recent interviews. She's done to give you a feel for the kind of work, she's done of late, on CBS this morning. Let's take a in April twenty eighteen one day after announcing that he would be stepping down from congress. Then house speaker Paul Ryan sat down with king for an interview and the two of them looked at an examined a photo that she showed him from the previous evening. It included Paul Ryan, the speaker included President Donald Trump, and it included top Republican leaders following the dinner at the White House. When I look at that picture, Mr Speaker, I have to say, I don't see anybody that looks like me in terms of color or gender. And you were one of the main people that said you wanna do more for the Republican party to expand. You wanted to expand the base. Some say this president really doesn't want to expand the base. So when I look at that picture, I have to say, I don't feel very yeah. I feel very excluded. Why I, I don't like the fact that you feel that way. And we need more minorities, more women in our party. And I've been focusing on that kind of recruitment. So there you're hearing, Paul Ryan responding to Gayle king in the moment, talking about the face of the Republican party and the party that he leads. Gayle king is joining me even at this moment here in studio, you jumped out of the car and into our ears. It's all right. You can hear me. That's all you need to here. And there you go guilty. Then I could take these off, right? No. We'll want to hear our listeners those. Okay. Thank you truly just jumped out of the car. They're like hurry ever. You're very, very up. So I'm running as fast as I can, you know, David NPR, we believe in giving up lovely to see you here on my show for a change the here. Glad to have you. I just played for listeners a clip of your interview with Paul Ryan about a year ago, and you basically called him out. You're like, dude, your party. It's showing me a bunch of older white guys. There aren't women here. Yeah. There aren't there aren't people of color here. What are you to say that at that moment, I looked at that picture, I was struck by that picture in that moment? David, I looked at that picture, and I think that most people would look at it and not think anything about it, but it just struck me. Wow. And it was one of those moments where you say what's wrong with this picture? And he was sitting there in front of me. And I thought who better to ask than congressman Paul Ryan. So what do you see? And we'll talk about the new show coming up on Monday, and congratulations, very psyched about that. I'm here. I'm very excited to talk about that, but you are, what is it that you see your role is doing not just on Monday? But as a presence on, on CBS on CBS this morning. What do you see as important element that essentially, you bring that maybe others can't? I don't know if I bring something that others can't because I look, I look at all of those who have said at that table, we all have a natural curiosity. We all really love this job. So I never approach it. And think what do I bring that nobody else does? I just know how much I love this job, even after all this time, I still get out of bed even on the worst days, when I'm so freaking tired. And so happy that I get to go to CBS and do the job. But I'm never in my mind thinking I bring something that no one else has I just come to the table, fully engage, you know, Bill Murray was on once and he said something about Charlie did done an interview, and he said, being alert and available, and I've never forgotten that phrase, Bill Murray said, yes. He said my, I approach life, I approach work being alert and available. And that's when the moment he said, I go, you know what, Bill? That's how I feel too. So that's how I feel. I don't I am under no allusions that I bring something that nobody else can. Never think that about myself, I just know that I love what I do. And I hope that people can see in my enthusiasm that it keeps them engaged in their interested. It's funny though, because one of the things that I enjoy about watching you, is that it seems to me that you don't suddenly put on. You don't suddenly put on your anchor hat, and talking to different language that you that you are in effect. You just trying to bring sort of what you would ask somebody. If you ran into them on a street corner and Rosty was provoked. Yes. True. Yes. Is that a skill? I've always been that kind of kid always, you know, when I was in third fourth grade. I was a good student and the teacher, send a note home to my parents and said, dear Mr. MRs king Gayle king. Gayle is a very nice little girl. She's very bright. But she talks a lot in class intends to be disruptive. And I brought this to her attention, and it hasn't changed a now I'm bringing it to yours now in my house. You got a note home from the teacher, and that was like committing a cardinal sin. I was raised to respect teachers respect to thority. So I've always been, and I wasn't trying to be disruptive in class. I was not a bad kid, but I had a natural curiosity about what was going on in everybody's life. So that's still hasn't changed as I sit here at sixty four. So tell us a little bit, obviously, you were paired most recently with Nora Donal over to be the chief anchor, managing editor of the CBS evening news. It's big for her big moments Vic for her big for us. I'm very psyched about that. John Dickerson is headed over become a correspondent sixty minutes. And we've just for him to we just learned that Steve Kroft is stepping down. At the end of this, this season, for sixty minutes, quarter, bellwether show for, for TV news. Just heard that David in the car on the way over here. It just it just came across. Emails as well. And you are going to be joined by your two new partner. See a finger to about them and tell us what, what might be a little different about this ration-, if the show, well, you know, the beauty of what I think is happening to us on Monday. The, the core and the DNA of the show is not going to change. You are not going to turn on the TV Monday morning and say what the hell happened CBS this morning, because the DNA and the core of what we do will not change. We are still dedicated to original storytelling, and creative stories and original reporting. But Anthony Mason is someone. I've worked with many, many times, whenever Anthony Mason was at the table when he had to fill in. It was very it was always a relief to me, because I always knew I was in good hands. You know, I don't want to say that I went on cruise control our audit or pilot. But I always felt I could if I wanted to because, you know, you don't have to be houses guy gonna do. Tony to Coppola has also been on the show many times, and what struck me about. Him is he's a brilliant writer. He has a great sense of humor, and he's very witty and very quick. And you know, when people say, what's your advice? My advice is always the same to everybody. Just go on and be yourself the audience can tell if it does, if you're faking it, I don't like that fake happy, talk Bank, a banter, that, that I see some people do, and if you don't have anything to say about something, you don't have to speak, you know, if you don't have a reaction, or maybe sometimes the best reaction is no reaction whatsoever. So I'm excited about we've been doing rehearsals, all week, David and after say I was saying to somebody, I'm not even nervous. I'm excited because I it just feels so comfortable. So. Right and so easy for me. Wanna take a number of people calling in people wanna talk to you. We've got a call from call. This is a national NPR show, Columbia South Carolina. Stephanie joins us up. What's your question for from Gail? Hi, Stephanie have to make a comment, miss Gail. Thank you for keeping it sexy. For the grown and sexy. Look great. And, and my comment to you is that a lot of times women, particularly professional women. Women and miserable feels will feel like after forty it's over because I gotta worry about minimum in pas pooch and stuff like that. And then my mom has been a tremendous example, she's almost seventy and working on a PHD, if you would just speak to the fact that it ain't over tell it so. Off-line. I know that. But wait. Stephanie, did you say the menopause? What pooch the minute the minute poss- coot. You know how like when you were twenty you could do whatever you want. You didn't even have to like do do an avocado, and you hit forty five and fifty. You're like, oh, what, what does this, and why do I have to suddenly wear jackets and cover, and camouflage. But I mean, all of that can get to a woman's, you know, self esteem, and I think for me, you are changing that particularly in a steel like broadcast news and journalism, because, you know, it used to be that if you were forty five you were out, you better start looking for another job or another line of work. But let me tell you this stiffen. Thank you. Stephanie from South Carolina. When I turned fifty the first thing I got in the mail was a subscription to the AARP magazine. It's like how do you guys even know my birthday? They sent it to me, and I call them and said, could you please take me off the mailing list because? I remember when my mom turned fifty and that seems so old to me. And now as I sit here I feel better than I ever have in my life. And now I almost regret sending it back because I think we need to send a new message to women, you know, that's why I have no hesitation whatsoever, about telling my age because I'm saying this is what sixty four can look like and I to have the menopause, pooch or whatever the hell you called it. And I think that's okay too. I embrace all of it. I am just so happy to be here on the planet. You know, I eat right. I exercise I do all of those great things. But my body certainly isn't what it was when I was twenty something. And that's all right. That's all right. We women are judged much harshly than men, and I don't see that changing. So Stephanie CBS one that you've watched consistently, or is a Gill brought help bring to the table for them. So I have to confess I was an Indian person. And then when Ankara got done dirty. I was like, I got to do something different. And now I'm going to be honest. I feel like I missed out on my friends. If I don't see you. I mean I was a little bit when Charlie last because I love the dynamic between you all, but it is serious journalism. I love the look on your face your face particular Gail when you think something's crazy. And you say nothing. I'm like. Like she's got a smile on her face now. Thank you for calling Stephanie. We'd be here in studio. New York City Gayle king, the award winning news anchor co host of CBS this morning editor enlarge of the Oprah magazine keeping it real. You know, I'm trying to magin, Eric Severin, taking a call about, you know, getting a Pooja later in life. There you go. But we're happy to have killed king here. Thank you for being here on point, we want you folks to stay around questions. Do you have for king? I'm David Folkenflik in. This is on point. This message comes from an points sponsor indeed, when it comes to hiring, you don't have time to waste you need. Help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast with indeed post a job in minutes set up screener questions, then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs, new users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. Terms, conditions, and quality standards apply. Nineteen sixty five darken street corner in Selma Alabama and a murder. A new podcast exposes the lies that kept this murder from being solved and explores memory myth and accountability for a crime at the heart civil rights movement from NPR white lies. Listen and subscribe, now, this is on point. I'm David Folkenflik. We're discussing morning television. The news business, the travails triumphs of CBS and much. More with one of the industry's biggest stars that CBS. Gayle king. You can join our conversation. What do you look for in a morning TV news host, what questions do you have forgive? King. Follow us on Twitter on Facebook and on point radio, as I said with me here in studio in New York City. Gayle king co host of CBS this morning. Thanks again. I'm glad to be here. Hello, gil. I so I wanted to to play a little bit more. You know, we're talking before the break a little bit about how you just bring sort of what you bring. The showed seems to me is what you bring to life off air off, Mike. Mom camera one of the things that I think a lot of people caught sight of was relatively recent not to say you haven't been working for years, but was your interview with our Kelly. The embattled aren't B singer. He's facing ten counts of criminal sexual accusations that he abused three hundred age girls. In a fourth woman, he sat down with you an exclusive and explosive interview back in March. This stuff. This is not a fighting from life. No. Robert. Tell me. Telling me. I have not about building a relationship with my pants and I can't do it. Dog? Just don't wanna believe. You don't want to believe it one of the most memorable things to me was he kept saying his first name, gently insisted only seem to be calming bring him to human moment, some sort of connection, what reach hoping that listeners were trying to get out of that exchange and have sitting down there, I was just hoping David for him to sit back down in the chair. You know, this was the first interview that he had done after that documentary surviving R Kelly that was very very damaging to him. And he felt unfairly that it portrayed him unfairly, because he denies that he's ever done anything wrong. So my whole motivation was to try to get him to calm down and sit back in the chair because quite frankly, I still it's work questions. And I've seen past interviews when he has gotten upset, knees literally just walked out of the room and I did not want him to leave in the middle of the interview. So I thought if I just sat there and if I said his name, and if I, I made I contact with them, and I also made eye contact with the chair, it would send a subtle message. Him that I'm not going anywhere. Fides if I had stood up and tried to comfort him say, wait a second way to second or responded the way he did. Which I actually thought he was having a little bit of a mental breakdown at that time. I just want him to know. I was going to wait. I was going to wait out whatever this was that he was doing. That's all I was trying to do. And to save the interview because I still had many things that I wanted to talk to him about now. Obviously, he didn't come out and say, some Perry Mason moment. I did it. I did it. You got me. No, nor was I expecting him to right. So what did you want viewers to see I at least thought that he would say, you know what I've made some mistakes, you know, I know the optics aren't good. Surrounding himself with young women and continuing to date. These I at least thought he would say, you know, I didn't expect him to say I've done anything wrong but I did expected to say I have thought about it. I realized that it sends the wrong message. I was expecting something like that, especially after that documentary, which, by the way was very powerful and very believable. I thought that maybe he had had some, some time of self reflection. And that, that's why he wanted to talk. That's what I was thinking. So when it turned the way it did when, when the when the interview ended and he walked out of the room the crew, and I just sat there and what the hell just happened because none of us all that coming. And none of us expected that. And I think the thing that makes it so powerful in addition to physically seeing the video, it's still picture that was taken, right. You know, my makeup artist Lazarus, I didn't even know he was in the room because it was a lot of lights camera action. So I didn't even know he was there taking that picture. But when you see that when he captured that moment several moments. I even I looked at it went, whoa. You know, my favorite son, favorite daughter in Oprah called me and said, are you okay because we put that picture up, what just happened when you look at that picture, it does look very frightening. But in that moment, I wasn't frightened. I did not think he would hurt me. I thought that he might because he was Harley. Yeah. Moment. And he's screaming and the spinach flying and he's hitting his fist. I thought he might accidentally hit me, I was worried about that. But I never thought that he would intentionally cause me harm a wanna take a call now from York Maine Maggie weigh-in here, I make. Hi, how are you all we're good. Well, I'm good. David our you. I'm so thrilled that you would take my call. And I just have a couple of comments. First of all, I love the morning show CBS. It's the and I was Gail I'm the same age as you, are you up watching another morning show and one day, the two house came walking downstairs dressed up like. It was Broadway. Singing, diamonds are a girl's best friend, and I immediately switched back to the macneil Lehrer report. Nothing where it was a game show. And the it was just finished. And, but I, I appreciate your reporting your wonderful stories and, and keeping it a new show. I mean I really really love it shit you saying that and I tell you this, we're going to do more of that we believe that you can tell the news, you can inform and dare I say, entertain and have fun without it being, you know, a comedian comedic. And I think people like levity but I think we will do it in a different kind of way because, you know Maggie, we like to have fun to, you know, I don't want people think, oh, CBS news is so stuffy, because I don't feel that, but I know the delivering the news is the core of who we are in. That is certainly our mission. We like to call it news with a heart like that. Thanks for calling Maggie, appreciate. It's so Gil king. You brought on board in early. Twenty twelve as part of a team with Charlie rose. I think Nuoro Donald brought on shortly after we launched that show. And there, there's a weird segmentation of the time, they didn't realize, I guess, the alchemy that would occur. I guess you were initially on the eight o'clock hour for memory serves, we're finally brought was like, well, she's softer news. We're going to keep away from seven and then suddenly, you were brought in and one of the things I've been on your show a couple times. One of the things I always admires you clearly done your homework you always seek me out for him. Okay. Let me ask you about the questions seven twelve fifteen that I you know, like to burrow in, and there was a really nice thing that, that Charlie rose provided. Right. He had interviewed all these heads of state figures and celebrities, some you know as well. That was a meaningful thing to you, and it was a meaningful report seemed like you build up that was genuine, then, of course things played out in, in two thousand seventeen as part of a larger movement to move. And you talked about that on the air. You talked about rose. In November twenty seventeen he's fired from the network after multiple and seemingly credible allegations of sexual misconduct were were published by the Washington Post which he, he denies. And here's what you had to say a really am still reeling. I got an hour and forty two minutes asleep last night. Both my son and my daughter called me Oprah called me, etc. You. Okay. I am not okay after reading that article in the post, it was deeply disturbing troubling and painful for me to read that said, I think we have to make this matter to women, the women that have spoken up the women who have not spoken up because they're afraid, I'm hoping that now they will take the step to speak out to that this becomes a moment of truth. You've said two things you've told viewers that you want to help, hold CBS accountable, then in the wake of the former CBS news chairman and sixty minutes executive producer, Jeff Fager being caught up in some allegations, les Moonves the head of the net. Network of being forced out after multiple allegations significant sexual misconduct. He said, CBS needs to be a front about this. You've also said, Charlie rose Maine's, a friend of yours, and he's an important person to you. How do you navigate what you've seen play out at CBS and obviously in larger society in recent years? Well, how do you navigate that? Listen, it's just a very, you know, it was a very difficult time for CBS but, you know, and I dress this at the time, you know, Charlie was an important part of my life. He and I were in our friends, but I also know that, you know, we, we've discussed me too. We have been through me, too. It's been a very difficult time. It CBS news and I think that everybody just wants to move forward. I know that I certainly do, but it's still very painful to me. It still is. But I also know the core. But I, but I do know this ninety nine point nine percent of the people that work there. Do their jobs and do them. Well, and that's what I choose to focus on. Choose to focus on the team that we have and moving forward. But have we been through some stuff? No kidding. Did I ever expect that we'd be part of the story? Absolutely not. But we were and we addressed it. And I think that we've handled it under the circumstances. Very well. Do you feel that that the network the larger network kept faith in his been sufficiently transparent? I feel this. I feel that naming Susan's Renske as CBS president, the first female president, that we've ever had in the history of CBS was a very, very smart wise decision. She is very well respected in the industry. You know, so from, you know, on, on every level Susan's Renske has the support of this team. So am I excited about where we are today? Yes. Did we stumble to get their absolute? Yes. But I also believe that we are we've gotten it, right. And we are getting it. Right. And I feel it's a new chapter. It's a new day. For a lot of us there. I want to point out you came up. You know, people think of you and they thought, well, she was sort of working alongside Charlie rose a she was somebody in some ways, maybe first came to prominence for a lot of people as, as Oprah Winfrey's close, you've been had a close, professional relationship, you met at WBZ station I used to cover as media critic for the Baltimore Sun that is how most people knew me David. When I started I've been working for eighteen years, I had been anchoring, the news and the Hartford, Connecticut WF BTV before that I'd been three years at WD a f- TV and Kansas City, and so for because the Oprah show is so powerful and so strong in Oprah used to talk to me, talk about me a lot. And she and I are still best friends to this day that will never change. It was interesting. When I got the job at CVS people said to me, a didn't know your last name B, I didn't even know you had a job. So some people to cuss you. Sure did. This TV stuff really quickly. Right. How were you able to do that? And I'm like very quickly over several decades. Right. I'm guys I have been working. So I got a kick out of that. But that's how a lot of people knew me when I started on on CBS morning and you know what, David that is okay with me, because I always knew who I, I always know knew who I was and still do. And always had confidence in my abilities, and always a love this job. So I wasn't even offended by that or upset by that. I just figure I'll, I'll keep doing the job. And maybe they'll see me differently. And if I'm not mistaken, there might have been something Hartford connection you're coming to the attention of Chris to end up being the head of CBS this morning, initially in that Mika Brzezinski had been station with you, right? Yes. Yes. We can our together channel three. I would not be at CBS at all. If it wasn't for Chris lick Chris lick launch morning, Joe. And then Chris came. Over and launch CBS's morning. I'd been on morning Joe several times. And he knew that there was something or he thought I had something. So he was the first person that brought my name up to CBS. Exact and I often joke with him. What happened when you said, you know, who'd be good on this show. Gayle king was at crickets. I mean, I think that he went to bat for me. He convinced them, let's give it a try and they did. So when I was first hired it was always for the eight o'clock hour, so I didn't come in their feeling lesser than or how come I'm not on it seven, or this is so unfair. I was always told when the show started that Charlie would drive the seven o'clock hour, I would drive the eight o'clock hour, I was always told that. So I never came in and thought, oh, I'm the one down man. I never thought that I wanna take call now from Chaplin Connecticut Randall's calling in Randall's. What's your thought Connecticut? A comment and a question first off. Hello. Thank you for taking my call Gail. I was a carpenter working on your set in Hartford, Connecticut. When you were there, and I always wanted to comment to you that I found you to be such a wonderful person. You remember everybody's name on that job site. And I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised at all at your success. So happy for you Vance androids, even though we had so little to no, thank you. When I was in high school, I had a teacher, Gordon Williams. Who's a history teacher for me and carpenter his influences has, you know, Br brought about a lasting interest in history and politics in the world. And one of the reasons I watch your show for news and stuff. I wondered if you had a person who in your life also influenced you in that way? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Randal for calling. I really appreciate that. I did Randall's. Right. I did have the Gayle king show that lasted one season and you know what smart smart me on this. I decided to keep my news job too, at the same time. So I would do the talk show and I would still anchor the five and the five thirty newscast on CBS be because I know that TV is very fickle. And there are no guarantees. So I was very glad that when the show was cancelled is still had a job Randall, you'll get a kick out of this. We got canceled for having ratings in the threes. And now people would kill to have ratings in the threes. I always think that that's money when you think about people who. -fluenced you it's, it's, it's definitely a local anchor in, in Washington DC, by the name of JC Hayward, I always say, people never make it alone. Ralph beg lighter was another person who was very helpful to me in radio and Pam Coulter of WCBS of CBS radio was also very helpful. You always remember, the people who sort of took you by the hand and showed you the way and something as simple, as you know, JC, could you look at my copy, what do you think about it a Bruce Johnston with somebody else, who is a local, a local guy at, at, at CBS who, by the way, David is coming to interview me on Tuesday night, the guy who I learned from nice who really affected. My career is now coming to interview G comedy questions, you'll have I know he will remember when I was kid at the university of Maryland. So I'm really looking forward to that. But you never forget the people that have taken the time. So to help you along the way, so we only have a minute or so left. Okay time. And I know you. I know you've got a dark back went so faint goes quickly, I told you right down quickly. So you know you've done some key things including unified. Governor Ralph northern Virginia and held him to task after I'm really pressed him in his only major interview in some ways after the, the black face yearbook scandal that he went through, and you, you plumbed about his understanding, it seemed to me about the pain, that this sort of stuff causes, and about the language that he uses 'cause you're also about to launch think, tonight, a special about ROY, the royals and the new baby. Tell me about these sort of juxtaposition of these two things at different ends of the spectrum when it comes to news, how, how you that because I think that they're both news. I think this is the beauty of why love this so much, David. The news covers a wide spectrum of things and the thing about me is I actually love it. All I love the politics I love Cardi B. I love Arianna 'Grande. I love the music. I love a pop culture. So for me the Royal wedding. I was very smitten with Princess Diana. I got up in the middle of the night to watch the wedding when she got married to Prince Charles got up in the middle of the night to unfortunately, watch her funeral. And I've so always worried about her boys, Harry and William, I still have friends, Harry. It's yeah, I spent some time with him. And Megan more, I could say that Harry and Meghan our friends, I could say that I use that term, I remember them walking behind the cast, Harry and Meghan are doing great, and our special we'll show you that tonight, it's you're hearing, the voice of Gayle king co host of CBS this morning. Pleasure to have you join us today. Best of luck on Monday Lee. That was fast. Thank you. Thank you David up next game of thrones wrapping up on Sundays at flaming out or going out in a blaze of glory. We'll be joined by New York Times. Chief television critic James Poniewozik. We also very much want your thoughts me. I'm David Folkenflik. And this is on point. The fact that in two thousand and nineteen. We're having this debate about measles, vaccine, makes my head want to explode, which is tennis. Strange really strange place in the only people speaking up the parents, endless thread, the podcast from WBU are Boston's NPR station and read it brings you a special series on the history of vaccines in antibac- Sers, subscribe on apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. This is Terry gross, the host of fresh air, we do long-form interviews with the journalists breaking the big new stories and with the authors filmmakers, and musicians behind the best and pop culture interviews to keep you informed. And entertained, so listen and subscribe. This is on point. I'm Dennis tar, on day Folkenflik game of thrones a tale of fire and ice mother of premium cable franchises, the fantasy saga about the fight for the iron throne was interwoven with threads of ambition power human nature attracting millions of fans almost as many satires in the kind of fascination typically devoted to college basketball brackets, or presidential primaries the show is wrapping up its eighth and final season on Sunday night. We'll sift through the show. It's themes and its impact with New York Times, chief television critic, James Poniewozik, and we hope with you, join our conversation. What do you think of the show at the precipice of its conclusion, what do you want from show like this? Joining me now, from the New York Times, as I mentioned, the paper's chief television critic James Poniewozik, James pun, Awasa vanquishers of sitcoms, destroy, your deadlines raider of reviews, welcomed on point. I of my name. Thank you. David very I will last names like ours teams I want. To ask you how. How important how impressive show is this as it's about to wrap up. I think you've got some perspective on that by now. How impressive it in size terms? No. I'm gonna talk about like like is this going to look the wires a great show, but it didn't have a huge audience. So let's put aside audience for the moment, like how meaningful how MS Moore ising, how successful is this show to you, as a television critic? I think this shows always been kind of a fascinating, mess, just just, just critically and creatively. It's this big sort of pop entertainment in this, you know, kind of blockbuster movie, John rea-, you know, sort of epic, high fantasy, but it applies, you know, and particularly, I think in its early seasons often applied, well, sort of the, the HBO twist, right, which is to take familiar, John rea-. The mob story, the western, etc and complicated. Ed psychological realism. To it and real, politic. And, and take this John RA that was originally about, you know, very sort of black and white morality and apply. The, the premium cable gray filter of morale, the top of that. And, and, you know, question things like the idea of, you know what is good. Leadership does being a good person necessarily make you a good king. Can it be a liability? You know, all that sort of thing, so on top of being sort of this visual spectacle, like we've never seen, and it's except for a few instances like just the craft of game of thrones tremendously impressive, it had big thematic ambitions, which it executed. Well, sometimes, and I think kind of lost the threat of in its later seasons. So for me as a critic, I feel like game of thrones was a tremendously absorbing entertaining show that reached for a kind of greatness that you could have had. And I think it didn't quite get. Want to take a couple of calls people have their own strong thoughts on this. You alluded to the question of ratings, Jason briefly like this was a pretty big rated show. Right. For HBO. You know, it's pretty big rated show for HBO now, keep in mind HBO, pay cable show. So it is not in nearly as many households as ABC or NBC. I don't have specific numbers at my fingertips, but, you know, it's, it's, you know, success, it's, I mean, financially because, you know, there are lots of different ways of the show can be big for HBO. It sells internationally cells on streaming. You know there's there's merchandise. It's every it's a cash cow, definitely. It's just it's, it's, it's sort of harder to assess the bigness of a show, these days than back in the days when say the mash finale aired, and it was just on regular TV and the number of people who watched it watched it, and they basically all watched it in the United States of America, and you just had a number, you know, but it's big HBO's happy, it had it put it that fair enough. All right. Let's take a couple of calls. I let's go to war. Saul, wisconsin. Jeff what are your thoughts on the game of thrones as it wraps up? I thank you very much. I think it's a really great show. And last week, I was just floored and stuns with the violent turn that everything took. And, and I think the creators may have had a very profound lesson that we as Americans really need to learn. And, and that's the war is bad. You know, we, we watch these shows and we have this, this bloodless. We just wanna see people fighting because we think it's exciting and fun or something. But at the same time, we're sending carrier groups to the Middle East. You know, there's cruise missiles all over the world and our American fingers on the button, and I think the creators saw this attention that people are paying on, on onto their program, and they decided, hey, we need to remind everyone that war is, is just plain evil. That maybe it's a necessary evil. But killing people is always wrong. And, and. You know, the turn that took was just such a shock. I, I really think that's that must have been what they were doing because otherwise, it just doesn't make any sense. Jeff, thank you for for this. Let me put that to James Poniewozik Jane's, it is a brutal violence show is the is this, like thinking back on World War, One war is inherently probably wrong in an almost certainly bad. Or is it more celebratory? No. I think the war is hell aspect has been an element of game of thrones from the beginning and you know, certainly as it scale has grown over the years, and particularly in last week's episode the, the, the scale of that representation has increased. But I do think, you know, I was very mixed on last week's episode. I don't wanna get too much in the, the weeds of it for, you know, people who haven't seen it or whatever. But, but I think I think you're, you're caller gets at the part of it, that I think big picture, worked very well for me. Which is that the, the, the series has driven for seasons toward this confrontation where there's, there's a war to retake the capital from this villainous greedy, family, Vallance tres, and you've hoped for this, and imagined it for years and years. And then it gives it to you, and it's an atrocity, right? It's a war. Crime is horrible. People are burning to death. Children are burn. Being, you know, I it's, it's I in in, I think that, you know, again, we're bombing at Dresden or something. It's terrible. Exactly. I mean there is there were there were elements and I think it was like fabulously directed, you know, it looked like you know, the, the aftermath of Hiroshima or something like that. And you know, I think it did a very good. I think that it hit was not great at setting up the motivations of individual characters which were the areas, where we're ahead problems. But in the sort of big picture sense. I it was undeniably a gut punch to say, here's the thing, you've wanted all these years, well, here's what it looks like you know, here's what it's like on the ground. Are you happy? Right. Although like those who might have supported. Wha what Americans did in, in World War, Two they'd say necessary to win. What is a near total war, but that is what total war looks like. And it's, it's incredible. Let's take a call now from Beverly Massachusetts, Jennifer way in here. Hey guys, thank you so much for taking my call. I had to buy in and say that throughout the entire show. I I've always been in love and following all of the strong women in the cast, and storylines, and I have to say that last week's show it's just it completely disappointed me to no end like I'm completely bummed out at, at what's going on. Because after having so many seasons of building up these female characters and having them go through such awful adversity and terrible, like trauma, the two most powerful women in the entire cast, or at least for that particular episode. They lose their cool and completely go nuts and in war it almost feels like it. They ran out of I guess, the strong storyline of what are we going to do with these female characters when they're in power. Other empower their emotional lips. Just, you know, bring it out with the stereotype, that women are emotional, when they're in power, and they're just gonna lose control go crazy. And I, I kind of I kinda just felt like that's their type really, really hung out there to dry and it kind of slapped me faces a fan because seeing Arianna come about and come from where she was, you know, struggling and then becoming, you know, nobody and then Santa going through everything she went through the buildup of the characters was absolutely fantastic over those seasons. And then just have this episode where both women are just kinda like Nope. I'm going to double down and go crazy and allow people die and let things. But things go crazy. It just seemed like kind of a cop out seltzer. Jennifer lemme lemme give a little texture of what you're talking about. I really appreciate your, your bring that up questions about gender question about race. We're raised, but let's focus on gender for a moment. This last Pinole. Damant episode. You know, it was the mother of dragons unleash total war deniro's tar Garin attacking king's landing to take the iron throne, and then you hear seen from this other very strong. You could say problematic in many ways, quite wicked evil woman, Searcy Lancaster with, with a couple of human moments. Over the seasons. She's played by Lena. Healy a Hiti excuse me. She's reassuring her her assistant, a play by Anton lesser that her forces will not be defeated feet. Hold back today. You're on killed one of dragons, he can get enough. You're Gratiot and fleet Vinnie the gates have been breached. The golden come our men will fight harder than sell. Cels EPA could. They will defend the Queen to the last man, this agrees and read keeps never Phoolan. It won't full today. Search Lancaster wrong, of course, and by not surrendering her city, she's insurance, the death of so many of her her former subjects, it's also too late for her. What do you make James Poniewozik of this concern about the way in which women were given in some ways, incredibly strong roles fascinating story, lines, interesting character development and the way in which their stories have unspoiled here in the final season. Yeah. I, I think what you what your caller is getting yet, is, is the character half in, in my last response, where, you know, I said that in the big in the big picture of the final run of the show seems to make sense on the level of individual characters. It often doesn't I think that this is honestly affected male and female characters in game of thrones. In that, like a lot of the storytelling has been sort of flattened out and rushed. But I think that the female characters, you know, when you sort of simplify and lose the threat of their characters, it's sort of, it's sort of more harmful than it has a greater impact because it plays into already existing harmful stereotypes. You know, like, you know, the, the emotional female leader, federal, you know, like like, like you're caller was saying, you know, in the case of dearest, -tarian, you have a character who was characterized. Over several seasons, not as just, you know, an unambiguous heroin, you know, she was she was sort of, you know, of a best ironic headstrong could be very brutal and unforgiving, to her enemies. But also, you know, shown to be very idealistically motivated, somebody who you know, head a sense, and sort of sense of mission to try to be a better ruler than the rulers that came before her. And you know, I sort of feel like you know, I don't I don't need deniro's you know to, to be the absolute heroin. You know, I think that, you know. Seriously, Lancaster has often been a very well complicated villain on the show in past seasons you know, sort of a villain who's shown to have reasons for that. But you, you, you need to draw it out. Well, in a way that this turn makes sense if you're going to do that, I think that for a number of reasons often, I think there is a sense in, in this last season of the, the creators, just sort of having having an ending in mind. And then just reverse engineering to get there as fast as possible. You know where it just becomes, well, we're going to drop a few, hints and then she goes crazy. You know. And that's that's bad character, drawing regardless and with women. It's especially pernicious because this is playing into a stereotype of emotional, unstable women. Let's take a couple of quick calls here Detroit. Michigan. Aaron tell us what you think about the show. Hi nice for taking my call. I love the show from the beginning to the end of the comment that the yesterday's mate, that's ridiculous. Because it was a it was surprising that. Because her character, and how compassionate she had been throughout you know, that's, that's what fans like we like to be surprised. I thought it was devastating, and I was totally aboard, but I was grateful for, for that type of writing, but the be interactions throughout from the beginning, the NFL action would the nearest in her brother, the interaction with the, the whisper the and the door. I mean the relationship between Jamie and his brother. You know, the little hints in the intrigue throughout we I saw when she got into the hot water. And one of those early episodes that she couldn't be burned, and then the little innuendos, and hints about John snow, not being what he was being played up to be the most devastating thing was in first season when at our start got his head could all that. I was totally blown away. I couldn't wait for the second season. How are you going to recover from that? And they recovered beautifully. I loved it from. Thank you. Erin. Thank you for that. Very. Quickly copious calling from New Haven, Connecticut. Cope, you briefly a your thought on this. Thanks for having me. I just wanted to weigh in with, like a millennial perspective on game of thrones one thing that the show has been about is sort of been, you know, this disruption of tradition disruption of, of the wheel as to narrow puts it, you know earlier on the up so she said she didn't want to. She didn't want to continue the spinning the wheel. She wanted to break the wheel and we see this going on Star Wars with Ray. We see going on game of thrones. It's really an interesting perspective that puts a puts a this sort of disruption tradition, and the and the spotlight ties it in both. Thank you Koby for that team's pun, waza quick last word, how much did this break the wheel this show. How much do the show break the wheel of television? Sure way. It certainly was a cultural thing. We're all talking about it at the same time you know what kind of legacy will leave. Oh, you know, I think that it has. It's going to have a great legacy. You know, I think that what your earlier caller talk. About, you know, killing off Ned stark. It did a lot of things that television wasn't supposed to do, and that alone, the gave it a huge impact you've been hearing from James Poniewozik that chief television critic for the New York Times. James, my, thanks for putting on your arm and step back onto this battlefield. Anytime. My leash you can continue the conversation. Get the on point podcasts at our website on point radio dot org. You can follow us on Twitter on Facebook ad on point radio. Our executive producer is Karen Shiffman. I'm David Folkenflik in. This is on point.
Bruce Craven, Leadership Secrets from Game of Thrones - InnovaBuzz 414
"Welcome to the another bus. Podcast l. job is to help you. Visibility professional credibility and conviction with your ideal client accordingly human at the center of innovative marketing. So you can build and strengthen and engaging enduring relationship with your ideal clients on european strengths from an overpass and honored that. You're here with me if you haven't joined our wonderful marketing transformation community yet go to knows abysmal c. And collect your free gift as well. Do subscribe to the show and also leave a review. Because it helps abbas fondness. Let's get into today's masterclass on this podcast bar. Values can be very helpful in guiding us about important since at the same time. I think we have to be careful that we don't jump to our values in volatile environments and assume other people share our values net assumed that king robert would appreciate his honesty when he argued with him in front of the small council about assassinating the young pregnant woman. That's not what happened so we need to understand. Our values recognize the importance of them and finding alignment work. Do we also need to be careful that we don't assume everyone around us has the same values who welcome back. I hope you've had an awesome weeks of If you haven't yet listen to my recent conversations with iman zombie founder of terrain dot. I o. and brian burkhart founder. And chief word guy of square planet then do get. Check them out but only after you've listened to today's conversation of course. I'm really excited to have on the another bus. Podcast is my guest today. Bruce craven a writer public speaker and educator with over thirty years of experience in executive education. He's i partner at craven leadership and an associate adjunct professor at the columbia business school where he teaches his popular. Nba nba elective leadership through fiction. His leadership book win or die leadership. Secrets from game of thrones was published in two thousand and nineteen. He has also written a poetry collection when sweaty in red glitter and his new novel. Sweet bride will be published in two thousand and twenty one in our discussion today. Bruce talked to me about what lessons. They are in fictional stories for leadership. We talked about the importance of empathy in leadership. And we talked about how al values affect ellie ship and how to lease it l. values without further ado. Let's fly into the hive. And get the buzz. From bruce craven. Hi i'm your host. Eric strauss from his and i'm really excited today to welcome to the another bus podcast. All the way from desert hot springs which is in california the usa. Bruce craven who is an adjunct associate professor at columbia business school. He's the hype partner at craven leadership as well as author of the book win or die leadership secrets. From the game of thrones. Welcome to the bus. Podcast bruce. it's a real privilege heavy. Here is my guest saggier. That was a wonderful introduction. And i'm really pleased and excited to be with you. It's a hot day outside out here in southern california but a beautiful day and this is just an exciting moment for me. So thanks you. I'm really touted to dig into this diner. Bob cool han. Who was a guest on it. Trae hundred and sixty six of the podcast suggested that we have a conversation with you. Bruce in introduced the subject to both absolutely in bob. I'll just take a quick aside for those who haven't heard talk yet but bots a very inspiring guy. We've had him participate in worked out of the columbia business school. I've hired him to do other teaching projects. He's a very talented leader. Very inspirational guy improv. Person who's trained in creative arts of improv. And i would encourage everyone to check out his your talk with him. Yes yeah episode. Three hundred and sixty six. That wasn't we had a lotta fun on. That looks of improv. Happening there as well for right now. I have to be upfront here and say i'm not a game of thrones fans fan in fact i haven't even watched a single episode but by my take on it from being some of your book is that essentially there's a king who sits on the throne who gets assassinated without having a leadership succession plan in place and so all the candidates for that leadership succession condom manipulate and an engineer to near their white onto that run. And and that's kind of probably doing the show a tuttle justice. Believe there's about ten series but that was actually very elegant on target. It takes place in this mythical time. It's an epic fantasy written by george. R martin on the books are incredible and their dance and they're thick and it's a history that's of course fictional but is really consumes you holes readers in and then of course when they adapted to a show they delays job. Hbo and when this current narrative starts. You're right there's a man named king robert and he took the throne in what was called robert's rebellion and he's traveled to the north to persuade a former brother in arms to come down and be his right hand. Man what they call the hand of the king and so this man up in the north decides with his wife and make the decision that he will leave his responsible north and go to where the iron throne is capital city of landing so be the equivalent of traveling saying the united states to washington. Dc and this man. Ned stark is heroic. He's proven himself in battle. He's a good leader in the environment that he's from but he's not particularly well adapted for the challenges he's facing leadership when he gets to this capital city and part of that is what you're referring to The king while very powerful and brave a great warrior has a lot of personal flaws and there are people around him maneuvering against his good fortune right and so our man from the north named ned. Stark is into that very volatile dangerous environment. Which you know my my question for you to stop conversational really's headed this whole idea because when you put it like that it's like you know you can see the parallels very clearly with with a business leadership role where somebody is cheers. The latest shape bringing their the trusted allies to lift tenants site. Quick them into leadership roles perhaps thin well prepared for and then of course things happened. Had this idea that fictional narratives and fictional characters could form that vices Listen stop with you yeah I've worked at columbia business school since almost getting straight out of graduate school where i studied poetry of a master of fine arts and poetry and i was working to write a novel. This was in one time ago in the late eighties early nineties. I started working in executive education. Which is a division of the business school harshly just out of an e for job and partially because i suddenly realized how exciting it was so jump cut about twelve years later and i'd had one novel pablo's that had a film made and i've written a written a business case with a columbia professor great colleague mining hall ingram and in the right of that case i kept occurring in the there ought to be a way to fiction. You know this. This craft that professional writers devote their time to professional screenwriters and professional playwrights. Throttle away to bring that into teaching leadership and it wasn't that the idea kind of sprung full blown for my mind. I had seen a professor at columbia professors. You shakespeare capacity. I didn't know that there is a professor at harvard. Who was already starting to do that. So was unaware of at this idea. I pitched to the And he encouraged me actually the times about thirteen years ago so the previous scene i live in california and so the question was how was i going to actually make this happen teaching all the time in colombia every week when i lived in california and long story short of an opportunity came up. I seized it. I spent about two years flying back and forth every week. In addition to a lot of the other travel. I did And the ideas really took took cold. But i think what it was. Because the narratives to get back again thrones and shakespeare for that matter the narratives are so compelling and the stakes are so high that for the students is very engaging. I mean you go do your job in. It's competitive and someone you perceive of as being an ally may betray you but hopefully in your life. that doesn't mean you'll have your head cut off. Game of thrones. That could mean your head is cut off for your children are murdered. Or you know so the stakes are so high. It becomes a very compelling landscape to engage yourself with and your classes that that's fascinating and often i look at at some shows and i get prompted the look at a character or nothing. I wonder what what would have happened. Had i might add different decision. So that's kind of the questions that you're asking except in a much more structured as a. Yeah that's exactly it. So if you go back to this this leader in the north named ned stark. His official title is lord edward at. He's called informally ned. When he travels to king's landing the capital city. He he does a couple of things. He brings his daughters with him. Assuming that one of them might marry the king's son and that's a ill. Ill may decision He thinks his younger daughter. Who's kind of tomboyish will benefit and become more traditionally feminine. I guess in the capital city and she doesn't she because much more of a warrior and then he makes some other Bad decisions he trust the wrong people and he acts too aggressively in a way that he feels more right without being able to evaluate true kind of dangers of the environment. And by the way. When i when. I first watched the show. I completely identified with it. I think i would very likely have made the same decision. So it's not about judging the characters it's more about finding compelling characters and then extracting from them key ideas that you can use to remind yourself when you're in a similar dynamic. Maybe someone offered you job and you. You aren't sure you really wanna take it. you know. it's probably not perfect thing for you that you feel compelled you start thinking about a few lens of ned stark. You may decide that. That's an opportunity so wait on or you may decide. You're going to take it what you need to be far. More prevention minded against the risks that role with. Let's let's explore that character a little bit more. I guess because you've given us a bit little bit of a background and and a scenario in which he's found himself in in some of the decisions might and also pointed a little bit of a picture of the values the the hell. What are some of the lessons. We can take from that into a leadership role. So let's say his situation way. We've been offered this role that means traveling somewhere else. That means relocating. Sol's and then there's the question do we really kinda family order. We leave a family where they are and all s questions have come up. What some of the lessons that we learned from that that we can stop to assists how we how we might have the seasons here. Yeah so. I should preface this by saying i started. Using game of thrones in this elective. I teach at columbia business school to as two executive. Nba's and i teach components of senior executives too but I taught it for about three years before. I brought in gang throats and one of the interesting things that i really benefited from is that the students climbed business score exceptionally intelligent And so i was extracting a lot of great ideas from them as i was quote teaching a class so one thing that many of them were very quick to point out was how ned stark really didn't evaluate the environment. He really didn't sit back and try to recognize what his core strengths are. What job description was really requiring She didn't have clear communication with the king. Remember they were. They knew each other when they were much younger when they were warriors. There's sort of this collegial Friendship connor around being grubs an arms. But they don't actually. Ned doesn't actually push into civic on. What his job description is so they have all this goodwill and i'm sure a lot of your listeners. Self myself been in that kind of situation where you're going into a working relationship. You have a lot of goodwill with each other. You're not being the civic so at a certain moment going back to two gain thrones. The king is being encouraged. King robbers being courage to send an assassin to kill a young woman who's pregnant in the continent of esso's because is the daughter of the previous king west roast so she has an air that air could be a threat to king robert's rule so king robert his strongly considering sending this assassin and ned gets a very public argument with him in front of what's called the small council you know. His group of different advisors sanad following his moral elif in. You know the fact that it's incorrect to send a fascinating to kill a pregnant young woman Triggers such a violent argument with his boss that the two of them aren't there to support each other for awhile as other more manipulatives foes get into action to pull it back again to our own dynamics as leaders going into new situation. We need to get clarity on what boss or the organization is expecting from us. And in ed's case he felt he was expected to be truthful and to operate with complete transparency even if he was in front of people of course the king fell his real responsibility was to loyal neds responsibilities being loyal to the king. So if they dug a little deeper and got clarity on that They might have been able to support each other when there was a lot of threats around them as opposed to arguing with each other pulling away not able to communicate with each other and then suffering from invulnerable to their enemies. Yeah it's interesting. Isn't it. Because i think what you touched on there is is a good of a clash of values and and i know you took in some of the articles that i've read. You took quite a bit about values and understanding values and alignment of edges expand on that for us a little bit. Yeah yeah so if you think of king robert net again there's certain values you. Can you fairly sure that they share you. Know they both feel of the importance of courage. Both great warrior coach. But it's clear looking at how king robert behaves. Courage is his top value so even as the king of west arrose he's trying to organize ongoing battles and fights one on one fights almost imagine like a ufc competition on ultimate fighting constitution. He's trying to create these dynamics where he can fight younger warriors simply to prove his courage. He's already the king of the continent. Right this is real responsibility. Probably ought to be in leadership or maybe and if you wanna put it in values navy responsibility to his constituents or maybe his duty you know. Ti view ty his duty as the leader of the organization leader of kingdom. So courage is very high in his hierarchy. So we all have these personal values but that doesn't mean we order them the same way dead values courage but he's much more committed to. What's the honorable thing to do. And the honorable thing is not to send an assassin after a young pregnant woman. So we can sometimes be in a dynamic. I said earlier how we can have goodwill with people but not be transparent and clear about what we'll job. Descriptions are what are. it doesn't have to be a boss to a direct report we could be working with colleagues have all kinds of goodwill but if we're not being transparent about what we actually expect from each other. We can make a lot of assumptions. That's what's happening here. And because their values are so close they feel like they're being honest with each other but in fact they're triggering that is triggered a lot of anger with king and that was both of them in a very vulnerable place. So i think one of the takeaways from that is when any of us again. We don't have to be in rome violent as gained franz but it feels good to do what our values our personal values tell us. Do that can be an incredibly powerful source of guiding our decision-making i'll give you one quick example Not that long ago. A colleague suggested that he might recommend me for a particular administrative. You should job at columbia. I had thought about that possibility for a number of years. And i knew. It wasn't really in alignment with my values that that i respected the people that were great at that job that it wouldn't be fulfilling role for me so when in fact he suggested i take that role right sorry. I'm quite for that role by wife. It was a brilliant idea. And i quickly said well it would be for someone else for me. It's not a right decision. So our values can be very helpful guidance about importance at the same time. I think we have to be careful that we don't jump to our values in volatile environments and assume other people share our values. Ned assumed that king robert would appreciate his honesty when he argued with him in front of the small council about assassinated a young pregnant woman. That's not what happened so we need to understand. Our values recognize the importance of them and finding the line and work. we do. we also need to be careful that we don't assume everyone around us has to say yeah. Let's some really good point. Sarah i think the other thing for me is that many people are not really that conscious of their values in that. Live by them I have very strong values. But they're not necessarily conscious of the values or hell how they behave as a response to that value and also what hierarchy of values the have. So if there's a conflict between two venues in terms of decision to be meddlesome behavior to engaging. I will default suv. What's the most important value for them and pick pick lot necessarily conscious of that that a lot of that is unconscious and so had you has alita become more self aware about your own values so that as a coin you can say. Well i know these values and this is the hierarchy of values. This one's more important than that on a and and i know that for somebody else they might not have always values aureus. I do have the. Mola might be in a different order of imports. Yeah i think we should be clear to that. We all have values that you know. We've sort of learned from our our religion's governments are our organization probably has declared values that are important in what we're talking about a little more here which i know you know is sort of our personal individual values right and for me. I'll take you back. Twenty years ago. It was just started. Jesse and introduce in the executive education heart heart columbia business school and i was the guinea pig so a coach. It was very new and executive coaching twenty years ago. An executive coach asked me a series of questions and and this is basically the process. You've being asked a series of questions. What kind of things do you like to do. You know are you whatever. Are you a surfer. Okay what what word. What's sort of abstract concept you feel is fulfilled by surfie. Oh i feel peace right or i feel adventure you know where i feel serenity Oh you're a skier. So what you know at work are you into it. What part of the organization yards you draw sales. What do you feel like when you're working sales how it's a sense of connection with the organization and with the customers it's su- sense of community right so we have these words. That capture used abstract words that capture feeling good feelings. We have different things you do. And then the coach will help you. Think through how to prioritize. Those i talk about a chapter write talking about it first chapter book. I'm there's different ways to do it. When i was coached. Took a coach. I think a while to to help me. Get to where i had these values and i went remember. I was up mountains north near city and went walking down by this lake. And i thought well okay was that it or there's going to be helpful and within weeks. I was recognizing work that i wanted to do as recognising jobs that maybe i would just have to kind of suck it up and get it done for a while but it wasn't gonna be fulfilling me you start to see how you can guide yourself values and through the hierarchy of about. Yeah that's a. It's a great exercise of. I've done it quite a few times. Who myself and it doesn't always come out in the same hierarchy and sometimes is different values that pop up depending on what what kind of environment urano what situation being thin air in in that time of your life in august. I've done it with other people and usually the People that haven't done it before this a lot. Well response at various. It's fun it's fun to teach because you can see people lights going off. His connections are made of. This is why. I'm always drawn to this kind of work. Depending on which organization this find this sort of sport or hobby spelling and it can be as as we're talking about it can be just a great guide to recognize how to get our life as aligned as impossible can't often situations don't allow that pushed to do things navy yard. Exactly what one here. At least we have a perspective understand all right now one of the one of the things. I'm a little curious of asset I'll let my cynic come add a little bit here because the only if you take something. Like i'm a thrones and and you know this. Many many other condoms series of stories that are very similar to that have the same dynamics and basically there's a whole lot of powell. Games apply pow dynamics. His shifting loyalties in shifting alliances and steaming and trickery often scheming and trick reason liza rewarded now. The people that are the nastiest humans end up winning out in this and sometimes went on what shows with. That's the outcome. I think will huffily real. Life isn't always lock that but then every so often things go on go to situation right now strategy. But i won't go in the political sane where the sense is. The nastiest people rose to the top and a successful. so what What do you say to that. And how do you like as a person of goodwill suggest you never guide those paldan nimitz as as a leader he added. There's there's different ways. I want to jump into that. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this. There's there's a book that i've been using since i began this course Twelve years ago Fishing ten years. Now here's a novel from the forties called. What makes sammy run and set initially in new york city on the newspaper business and then it jumps to hollywood. And it's of all. The books films plays that i've used. It's the one that every student. I think connects worse and in a way it's a it's a parallel to what you see in front. So i can game of thrones you see a lot of very self centered on nip Dishonest people achieve a certain level of a very real success and we could draw parallels to clinical situations where you know being transparent and authentic accountable and moral good in is doesn't always seem to pay out as well as being given and self interested etc In what makes sammy run. I don't wanna tiredly give it away. But there's a young boy that's grown up in the slums of new york city. And he's very willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top and his. Name's sammy when we talk about him in the class. It's very interesting because sometimes people will admit you know. I've got a little of sammy me you know. It's an often almost every time people say. Oh i worked with a sammy and so soon. I'm going to get back to your question. Try to use that to really analyze. Are there moments when thinking. Sammy might justify of you. Want is a great moment. Early in the novel. Where he's basically just a newsboy and he conned his way into a phone call with a hollywood producer promises script that he didn't even write someone else wrote if he's read it and essentially catalyze as a whole hollywood career out of lying manipulating stealing the other person's script so i'm never because it wouldn't be my personal life. I'm not going to argue that the stealing of the script the even the lying is what's extractable takeaway now other people. Might you know in the in the late eighties. that book. what makes sammy run was used all the time in hollywood to emphasize a certain kind of approach the film business. They were really arguing. Be just like sammy. I would never do that. Because that's not how i i'm not naive enough to think other people won't that's not what i would do and yet i'm open to discussing that in the class and occasional. Have someone will make a strong argument. Shaver that the generally the real takeaway is. Are there moments that we can. Channel the hunger or the confidence of certain meter don't want to embrace their whole character trajectory so in sammy. There's an element where he just believes. Why not me you know. Why can't i be the one that seats. And he has very little doubt sue and he's uninhibited. If he sees the moment he goes at it. And i'm sure you. And i could sit down and talk about politics at about how. Why not me uninhibited You know why those can be very dangerous behaviors. If they're out of control in a political environment in this leadership class and using fiction it can be very useful to go. Hey wait a second. I'm going to get on the phone with a potential employer next week. I want to be more like the sammy that gets on that phone. Call and persuades the employer to hire me than some other character. Who would be filled with doubts. Reiten i want to believe that. I can make the deal happen so in my class. Even when we're talking about leaders that i would consider lower on the moral scale. The question is what can we take from it that we can fit into. Are you know. Ideally moral approach to life. It can still be used useful tactic. yeah i think that's a really important point and i know i said i have this emotional reaction when i'm watching a show will reading a novel story and there's the bad guy and and the bad guy usually you don connect really well with them and you think the villain Doen't lock that person and often you get this effect where if it's a if it's fill mora of clay that I mean there are certain actors that do really well at seems to be a skillset and they're always playing villains. So you kind of associate the actor who is a person for themselves with a bad person. What if it's an exciting first of all sign role played a bad guy because he and i think increasingly we see in a lot of these longer tv dramas game on now but this is true for a lot of them. We see that often. The bad guy doesn't stay the bad guy or bad woman doesn't seem bad woman the hallway through we start to see the human moments and in a way. I think there's something very if we were to pick. If either of us were to pick the political leader we find the least appealing and we feel pretty strongly in our judgement over. We would be better if we could imagine as being the hero in their own hero's journey because of a sense of under of empathizing with them and and i don't mean empathizing with them to approve of their behavior empathizing with them to understand what's driving them and then also understand why they can be affected in that ticket for political theater right in the world so i think often empathy is a very powerful skill for every leader and when it comes to people that enrage you you know whether it's in the political atmosphere in your professional atmosphere on a tv show. If you can empathize with them you can see why they think their heroic and that can give you a better sense of what really drives them. And i think a better sense. It had to confront them. Yeah i think you touched on a whole range of things that i'd love to explode. The hero's journey is something that i'm really. I love the hero's journey and an understanding that from the point of view of people's behavior and pickles journey and applying to all ranjit. different things. the other thing you touched on the was empathy Which i think is something we should explore some more and the yellow no wanted to comment on the. You said you know if somebody really enrages you. I mean we look at the world through our is through values through our experience and and so what we see is not necessarily reality is just what i say and often if you have a very powerful reactions to something it's kind of there's something inside you that has triggered that and if somebody else's enraging the question what is it about that that has enraged and what part of me his mirroring that so my very well being for example a simple example i Have clients procrastinate of set and things and when they progress night. I get very frustrated. I said what are they. keep procrastinating. That what i just get it done and move on your own. Then i sort of reflect that back and saying what are all the things on procrastinating avenue a mazda at procrastination so young getting frustrated with something in somebody else but frustration really they've down unconsciously is with me. Yeah and i i. If i can jump in i think one one thing i've been working on that i need is right in line. Four you're talking about is We all fall into this instinct to judge right and so one of the things. I teach my mba course and i also do it through my consulting company is there's diagnostic called h. Vdi you answer one hundred twenty questions and you get sort of of response on how your preferences communication and and were all prepared to paris. People right so Give a quick way of understanding that. I'm backgrounds as writer and i'm very much on the right side of the model. Very feeble motions is big picture and sexual things. My wife is a chartered financial analyst by training. So she's very near very analytical process-oriented running were were married. You have kids and we have an. We're running a consulting company. So so the obvious advantages are that we both get started by doing the kinds of work with the other person tries to avoid challenges that were often seen. This is getting your point about how you see the world. From one lens we will see the world through lands that the other person doesn't and keep bringing that perception to the other person. And if i go to her and talk over and over and over about the importance of some future problem of project it's going to be really conceptually fascinating and going to result in some really new creative things she's thinking about. What process put in place to get that to happen. And what data are actually bringing me to show this ideas really that good. So we can really clash. Clash can be exacerbated by judging yet i they don't even understand what's important life anyway. I mean we jump to these huge extremists. And you don't have to be married to your business partner and do that right. You can do that all the time and the work environment so for me and i we talk about this a lot in my class. One thing that. I really trying to work on personally because i think it's just smart is to not get overwhelmed by that kind of judgment and to take it back to the political moment. If you're watching someone that you really disagree with politically at. What point is the rage and the judgment energizing and helping you to do something productive at one point. Is it just feeding your anger and useless. Right and i think. In general anger is minimal clue. It's important but i think we all need to lead ourselves to young little less judge mental. So we can actually build stronger relationships with the right p. whole to pursue our goals achieve articles. Yeah i think that's a really important point to setting aside judgment and he talked about empathy earliest. I think having embassy with another person will view or another person stall of doing things or way of looking at things does require setting assad judgment on and it doesn't mean you have to. It doesn't mean you have to sorry to interrupt but it doesn't mean you have to agree with them. You know you might. At the end of the day go. I completely disagree with their approach to leadership within our organization but if we can control if we can at least control the judgment enough that we can see were clearly my belief is we're going to be more effective in what other steps we decided to take to pursue our own goals within. You know normalization to compete. You know we're gonna compete better if we can actually step back from just seeing white rage cross our. Yeah and you know you talked earlier about. In the game of thrones and the story of nate and the king that that there was the communication wasn't clear. Click communication. I think setting aside judgment and particularly if it's a work colleague or business partner or a spouse even more born in that Having really clear communication and having meaningful conversations octa not just talk to somebody about the weather or something like that. I lucked to have meaningful conversation. Because that's that's the way i sink can learn from other people and and also gives me the opportunity to contribute to them in some way and to be able to have a meaningful conversation with. Somebody doesn't require that. I agree with what they say. But at the same time it does require sitting judgement aside so that we can have a meaningful conversation and yet still this great. Yeah and if you're looking at it from a leadership perspective which we are at an even a business perspective if you go back to game of thrones and season one Ned to worry about spoilers at this point over her two years but ned confronts the king's wife about such stuff. Ned has learned and he misjudges her completely. I mean he assumes because she's female that she's not going to have the courage or anger or the focus on her own success that he thinks a man would have and so he goes into that situation judging in a totally different way right like he. He confronts her judging her for not being really the warrior the he is or the king is simply because she's she's not tear wearing armor. Carry the sort and so he. His efforts is misguided efforts to help her. He actually put himself in a vulnerable position. So part of it is We need to recognize strengthened. People around us we need to recognize the potential and not judge them because it's in our own best interests to to succeed right like if he had been able to be a little less judgmental and a little more open trying to listen to her and understand from her he might have found a way. I'm not saying it's it's sure but he might have found a way to build some common ground and move forward without facing the horrible fate that he faces in again to put it in our environment professionally. We can often fallen judge in in a lot of people simplifying the their complexity and then not even giving them the information they might need to create a win win situation with us right so like you're in your instinct to try to have real conversations with people is also the instinct to build a real network each other. Yeah okay now. I mean we touched on that. You know this power dynamic set playing and sometimes people that perhaps Don't share values in behind the way we locked to behave Most successful than we'd wished them to be in an ideal world that the i guess the the one question a nano you talk about this a little bit in the book. It's it's the difference between leading for the psych or the desire to have pal for the cycle of oneself lockets. Now my be powerful. Or i'd love to have to the king where everybody kept house a to me or the idea of the servant feist wooden you know i have. I believe on the latest to other people. Because i can help people become late as as well said talk a little bit about the difference there and what lessons might be in the fictional stories in guy with rhines round that george martin the writer of books his huge fan of history goes back draws argued award roses draws on a lot of different historical situations and again. I don't know exactly how how all the things he drew on. But what you do see in the narrative is that some people that are su only power for only their own self interest achieve very real success for a period of time at a great cost often. Don't have long relationships with people only allies or people that are paying. You know man what you do see. In game of thrones. Is that the people that are able to pass their own self interest and care about the people to be motivated to help other people are the people that find the strength to be resilient against a huge amount of adversity and to give you a real life example of that it's also drawn from from class. I teach the first book i signed. The students is not fiction nonfiction. and it's the autobiography. The first autobiography that frederick douglass wrote after escaped from slavery in the united states. So for those. Who don't know we had slater's part of this country. Nor nineteenth century and frederick douglass born into slavery he managed to escape and then when he escaped his focus was to become a public speaker and rally country around the ugliness in the horror of that element of our system. So where i'm going with. This is that he could have escaped and just pursued his own comfort in his own self interest but he chose to put himself continually at risk to try to change the world. In any game of thrones you see you see parallels that you see the star. Daughters is some of that again. I don't wanna get too far. Show that in a way with the nearest target area in his young pregnant woman. I was talking about before. So i think fiction can be a great way for us to look at got question and i don't think there's always going to be an easy answer. There's always gonna be people that have acquired wealth power and numerous advantages and had done it without being focused on anyone around the cells that is the nature of were muted. live in. it's got to happen Me what's important. Is making the decision about how i wanna live my life and i know that i there's things i wanna do. I wanna make sure my family's taken care of him. I wanna make sure. We have money to repay pair the car or i mean. There's there's things that i want just as much as anyone else is energizing to able to get out of your own self interest and thinking about helping them and i am businessworld where i've worked with so many senior executives. You see that all the time. That of course. This hour matters horse benefits matter but what also matters is being able to know that their work has some value beyond. Just you know paycheck. Y'all think they they frederick douglass. One is a really interesting example. Because the thing. That that i sort of immediately when you brought that up while his courage and the latest like that courage is such an important part of that because if my understanding of the histories correct than Slaves that escaped slavery. When if i got captured they were at risk of today's and and so you know he was taking this huge risk by getting on public stages and speaking and in doing that because he believes so strongly that he could make a difference by convincing other people. Let's library was wrong. He absolutely there. Was that great film. Whatever eight nine years ago twelve years a slave at it's about some of hungry. He actually was a slave but he was dragged into slavery and douglas. Clearly that was a wrist. He he had to eventually go to the united kingdom and then through the money various donations. Hey is former slave owner to get his fruit in chile to do that. He was at continual risk of the united states being dragged back to slave states and we have the fugitive slave act Where people could go to other states collect sleighs grinning back and get paid for this kind of a about so courage. A huge encouraged takes us. Back to said joseph campbell in the hero's journey right because because the hero's journey for those who don't know is is extracted from the work of the thala. Gist and joseph campbell. Who actually wants to columbia ran track columbia and is going to get his doctorate literature from columbia that he decided that he had a different colleen and he wanted to write more about these different religions and philosophies in stories and narratives from different cultures so he actually left graduate. English department went upstate. New york new boston money. He'd made a jazz musician and wrote different publishers. And said can you send me these. He's different books. I'm interested in. He wrote a book called the hero with a thousand faces. George lucas off when he made the first star wars which propel campbell is agree exchange for his life. But it's this idea that there's this commonality in all these different this and it's about the need for the hero. The heroin to recognize being called to do something and step forward and have the courage to call. And really when you think about it. We're all doing that. From the beginning of our life i mean will you go That's why that's why that whole idea was so powerful. Because he studied all the different stories in missed analysts stories in midst going back. Sales of years were essentially parallels to what happened in life. Some of them were real life. Some of them were adaptions of relaxed. Some of them were fantasy but based on people's experience of life and and across all the different cultures and across all the different religions Common same that he discovered a net. Because it's bicycler life. Yeah that's great. I love the way you put basically life and wouldn't argue. He would argue that that. If you hear the call so that adventure and you don't take it you may really feel a sense of loss right. You name later realized that some adventure was put in front of you to take now to get back to ned stark. Look he was called to adventure and he took it and it all went right so i do think that that we need to find some balance in our life of being proactive but also being aware of how to lead ourselves those those challenges so that we can't control our fate of course that we can do the best we can to confront university and and succeed and to me as you said that's life right. I mean if we're gonna and we're going to accept the adventure then let's do it and if we're not we better ask ourselves. Why not win the hero's journey that there is you know the colder adventure. Which in in skies was the king saying. Come down murad hand man In your example lilia it was the day's other offer that somebody suggests that do this other job opening that somebody suggested o'clock said that's a colder adventure and and all of while We have first response is no no. Don't want china enjoyed to reject ical. So there is that step of rejecting the coal and it's always a good idea to really be aware of that and said yeah that is necessarily the end though but the decision might be bright society. Now that's not more cooling Right now or that's not my cooling ever but it's good to reflect on that site you know am i m. I just stayed off. Yeah taking the next step of moving forward of getting outside of my comfort zone and along hero's journey when you get he on that nick accept the cold then. There's a whole lot of tests along the way that might be question. Might be questioned whether that the the Mayak chirac decision. Yeah and i felt that writing. The winner died. Book was certainly a your jerry which which by the way that that that offer that call to adventure came. After the job wasn't wasn't a job offer the suggestion that i've plied your job came a couple of years before and i did think about it and it was easy for me. I just think it's fruits your point. Who's easy for me to realize. That wasn't the right call. That wasn't right adventure when i was offered the idea of writing this book. Wintered i- gouging thrones. I knew i had to do it. I mean i knew it. And i mean it was like i knew it was going to be hard and but that's a good place to be when you're really excited about something to do. Even if you know it's going to be hard you go. Well it's gonna be hard because going to be energy excited. Yeah i think that comes back to what we were talking about earlier. The thing really clear about your own values and and then when something like this comes up often that if if i'm can make a really quick decision they're inspired really excited about this even though it's scary of its its aligns with so many of my values and being really clear about the values enables. You'd actually make that quick decision. Yeah well and i'll give you. I totally agree. And i'll give you an example with a winner died book I had seen the first episode of it. And i thought it was good. My wife didn't like it is so we watch more the first episode. Then when we were talking to the editor. I started reading the books. We started watching. My wife became a huge fan. She read the books twice right. And and if we're on camera show you how big the densities are up where we're going with all that is that shawnee most exciting heart was recognizing. I love tolkien. Wrote in boy right. I i haven't been at all involved. Is any real epic fantasy type fiction in my in marine or shows that i watch it so it was this sense that can i take all of these great leadership ideas that i've had the benefit of learnings from columbia. And can i apply them to this whole new thing and can i do it in a way that fulfils professors whose ideas on drawing on and create a side of herself and that for me was right. There i was. I was inside and i needed that excitement because when it got hard i needed the excitement to get me through all the parts that scared the hell out. I love it. And you brought up token i mean i'm a big fan of lord of the rings and the when i started researching and writing some of your articles and reading some book and learning about game of thrones are so holler parallels here with lord of the rings. I don't know why. I never really got into game of thrones so i looked at the books because at the moment it's not running on any of the subscription services here in australia so i looked at the books and and i'm a big fan of audiobooks off. Just get the audio book. Will i think the first of ten of the books goes full. Forty eight hours the audio narration. So i'm not going to be able to do that before. This show is something george. Martin was also a huge fan. Full kennedy actually. What of the quotes. Which i put up for my students as he said when i die. Don't don't take me to have just take of middle earth. I love it now. I believe there's a new book coming out soon. that's taken a little while get underway. Yeah i think he's. He's been incredibly prolific. But it's a lot of different projects in As a writer. I mean you know you see people that give him a hard time for not finishing second to the game series. I feel like hey. He's he's paid his price. He can do whatever he wants this time right but he did just signed a big deal with hbo and possibly even more prequels. The one that's already is one. that's already in production from his history of the tar jerian family before it's called fire and blood. I think and i just read today. That there's a broadway stand in australia. Bound play since being developed platens. H so I was driving my son to schools. It's really interesting to see how many generations from now are people. Still looking at game of thrones. Does it become kind of like a parallel to shakespeare people. I don't i don't know but it's a fascinating time to watch. Tv in They're happening Just at the time. Then then we've gone on for quattro all got pretty excited so i think it's a good point now. I mean there's lots of great leadership lessons. Aaron and i said my encourage people to read the book particularly she have Watch game of thrones and you are familiar with the story a probably make a lot more sense to you but even if you haven't got a lot out of the book not having ever watched a single i tried. I tried to provide context naked value there and it's fascinating that you know. There's so many lessons in leadership problems as fictional stories. So i think it's a good time now to move onto the buzzer which is our innovation around. And it's designed to help our audience to primarily innovators in latest Tips moore experience. So there's five questions and hopefully you will give us a really insightful. Answers that spy the lease mitochondria. Something that is a result. Okay let's go. So what's the number one thing you think anyone needs to do to be more innovative. I think you have to be resilient I'm a partnership with an actor friend of mine director. Now we've been trying to sell a tv show for about eight years. I think about the game book. Everything that i've managed to achieve with some has an element of innovation has required pushing up against a lot of people that say no hearing a lot of nose and then having resilience of component that resilience is her To kind of ask yourself over and over. Is this something. I really believe in doing it for at if you keep saying yes and he keep believing in it. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean i'm gonna solve his tv show. Could it does mean some doors open and game. The thrones book was very similar. The editor came to me. Then there's a whole nother jury involved. The ended up back with the same editor that everything that i've publishing a novel this year that i started writing twenty years you right and and it's an innovative novel and i think sometimes things just take time they're going to take you have to be zoya. That's the t- that's the word folks are them. And i keep a picture of frederick douglass Because he's a symbol of being resilient of just not quit the fight or i'm going to sail when i'm not gonna say some. Yeah and and again coming back to the idea of values and beliefs and being really clear about what fits into those values. Were they feel strongly about so. Then you can. You can keep posted veering on that possible so it helps with resilience i think. Yeah using the values to coach yourself to persevere be resilient that's great that's great. So what's what's the best thing you've done to new ideas for me it probably. I'll i'll take you back to. When i was out of graduate school and i was trying to write a novel about los angeles Eventually was published after about five years of writing an effort I kept trying to look at that book from a fresh perspective. And we'll get myself from a fresh perspective and not try to extract ideas from all around right and so there's a professor bill duggan. Who taught very much about that out. Great creativity comes from polling ideas off different shells and then juxtaposing so for me. A big idea at one point was wait. I'm spending all this time nisha and spending all this time professionally fascinated and pursuing work fiction. Can i bring these two together and cannot create anew thing so i'm often looking things through that lens. Like what take from over here that might fit from something over there and create something new and and again. This is appointing bill. Duggan would agree learning from your predecessors like taking taking a good idea that someone used over here and seeing if that fits with another idea you have here as soon as you can generate holding creation. He i think they the skill of connecting the dots between things that same to be at first glance totally is something that i think generates. Lots of ideas and alternate seem so an clearly. You've done that with the fiction writing and poetry at some point and and been the leadership of education. You're doing what example that. I often use in my teaching george lucas when he created the first star wars right so he had grown up with a lot of tv shows from the fifties and sixties than hatch heroes and then in the seventies. A lot of the movies were rumors about anti chief. Wait a second. He's actually supposed to work on apocalypse now Which is a very dark movie. And then he. If i wait a second i'm gonna take so the the american involvement in this very dark moment of vietnam and then i'm gonna connected to the idea of kind of a space opera where there's heroism. And then he created something completely different and he and he drew. He drew ideas from all over the place from different experts. But by juxtaposing these things very few people would actually look at star wars and think it has anything to do. The aw are conflict. Vietnam the sixties except strides. But he was able to bring some things together and create something jury fresh thyme and transformed industry right. Yes certainly did now. What's the one resource. You use most often for me. I'm thinking back to when i was first starting in both screenwriting fiction. I think it's very. It's very true to this day again. We're not on camera but in my home office. My wife's side of the desk is very clean and everything is very well ordered on my side. There's just books falling all over his hostess with notes. There's magazine articles cutout columbia professor in eric. Abrahamson kuroda book. Some years back called perfect ness personnel about this idea that often from mass comm juxtaposition of things a little bit in line muggy idea but from nastiness can sometimes come great ideas so for me. It's it's often this balance of hiking. Desert meditating calming my mind but then just surrounding myself. I all kinds of books and magazines and shows in kind of diving into different things and just waiting for the ideas to percolate. I mean at this point. I think i've just her sixtieth year last year. I think i caught him. My creativity approach is true weather. I'm writing fiction or working on the leadership book or or teaching leadership. Mean a lot of what i do really might my full time. Job is teaching leadership. And i'm always trying to pull things together in different ways Hana from a mass to create something that connects with business leaders and in a new fresh way mysterious. Yeah i love the that one of the k. Pots there is that balance between comedy. Mind sime time that that sort of disruptive nitro lots of different information. That's just sort of light at this all right now. What's the best way to cape a client on track if you're working with somebody on on the leadership on approving a so keep them on track and we're already working together on a project or i'm selling them on or both. I guess well mainly you were working. We're working with other well. I've spent a lot of my time. Line kind conference centers and sort of onsite programs. Now of course the last year a lot of that's been done virtually hybrids words virtual classroom and virtual of i know wish with senior executives. I think a lot of it is again trying to make were exciting to them with a recognition of their own time constraints and so trying to find ways to executive education. Were which which i've done. Rick columbia business school. A lot of it in the past was very experienced oriented. So we're gonna go take fencing class here with colombia's fencing team or gonna go go with these world famous of rowers who wrote across the atlantic ocean we're gonna we're gonna row for one day kind of experience what we can extract from that In terms of work i've done individuals consult in addition it with executive education programs. All these things like writing the story. Everyone write a story which is very new experience for everyone class. They're envisioning their own hero's journey Achieve success in the future. So i think you can't just roll out wailer slate and expect to win anyone's true transformational engaged that to reduce something unique and it's gotta be something unique that you that you believe it. I know bob colon were talking about earlier. I've worked with him Independently as a consultant. I work within the business school columbia and he brings in improv and that creates all of those things create a little a certain amount of discomfort. I know 'cause i've done them. In addition to teaching some of them. I've participated in some of them and a little bit of discomfort is not a bad thing and learning because it gets us out of that armchair mode where we sit back and analyze. Everything is this. Were out of the set on top of everything right mirny. Sometimes you'd be shaken up. One thing i did. It's about ten years. But i got pretty heavily into a lot of martial arts type stuff and i remember thinking you know. Hey this is. This is nerve wracking but this is also good for his. This is helping me to recognize how intense like be so. I tried to bring some creativity and intensity to stop to keep people enacted and then of course you know if it's it's helping workout it's gotta fit with what they need so you really need to be able to listen you get on the phone and i can sometimes operated this if i get on the phone hundred percents that i know what they need. That's authorized on the phone and listen to what they need. They might not know what they need but i. I don't necessarily have the answer right away. We need to get together. Did something with the world through their lines to love it on lots of focus their own experience and innovation around that and it occurred to me because you said it helps push people outside their comfort zone a little bit on if you think of the adult learning model the the the id or where when somebody gets to the point of sign all this is all too hard on. I just can't do this all too hard. You said that's right now you're in the learning mode because if it's too easy not learning and win win Because by thickly you're ignoring the the any lessons that come out of that but it's odd. You really focused on. What do i need to dan. And i think. And i agree and i think n. You remember it later when this drama for using fiction at a mean someone later one of my students later is going to be an intense situation. And they're gonna flash on sammy. From what makes sammy run. Or they're gonna flash on searcy. Lancaster from game of thrones right. And so or you could be you know in a difficult moment in your organization where you're struggling to get a line that with team and you suddenly remember raleigh or you know so. It's it's it's the intensity of it can then bubble up later when you need to lead yourself to then effectively lead other people and i think part of that too doesn't always have to just be underneath. It's not it's not just the experience and engaging something that scares you although there's an element of that circle but just i just completed a class with my executive mba students about two months ago where he did a whole block week and five eight hour days such five eight hour days and just talking to each other sharing ideas indicate back and forth in a lot of that is just through honest communication. People start to learn so much about each other. They also shines line and emerged about cells and they and accidents vary. Spirits are as often just honest conversation well facilitated around intense practical questions in bill great source of knowledge in a person and with other colleagues. Yeah i love that. Love that whole approach for right now. What final question the buzzer. What's the number one thing. Anyone can do differentiate themselves again. I feel like you. You have to be a true believer and do something that you really love that that sense that it's a calling. You may go through life and have a couple of college right but that sense that any any you can't create that artificial and you have to earn that right and if you're in the innovation space where you're trying to bring a new idea forward You yourself might not even one hundred percent know how it's gonna come out but you have to have that true believer confidence that something magical is going to happen. He's view have that. You're not gonna hook the people you're not going to be resilient You're not gonna find your way to the to the great place that you're envisioning if you don't have that that right beside Moment in shakespeare in love that with all trone academy awards some years back. But i think it's geoffrey rush plays the producer if i'm right at the beginning like hanging his feet over these coals and they're you know threatening to torture him because he owes them money he's the producer of plays at some point. They're saying well. Why do you think this is going to happen. How do you think this is gonna come together. And he goes. It always does. It's magical. it always comes together. But i always have him in my mind when i'm trying to finish up because i'm thinking it's not a hundred percent. Rational hundred percent rational. Everyone would have done. It doesn't mean you're going to get there. It doesn't mean you're gonna get that's part of why it's a hero jury. It's are you going to take it. That's the thing you've got to be in that space. Like i'm gonna fight for it. One hundred thousand other people have done it. It might not work. But i'm in that space. Go for love it. Yeah and shakespeare in love is one that i have seen so i remember that same great. It's a great pet or i will thanks. Process has been fabulous people. Reach out to you and say thanks for it. You should find out more bad you get hold of the hook. We know die Well my website is. Www craven leadership so c. r. a. v. as in victor e. n. lucia com. I'm also i'm linked in those us. Instagram and twitter. My handle is having a gentleman. Mercury in the licensed l. e. v. s. o. f. a. sofa big old wide car. That family five so. I'm on instagram twitter at sosa. Yeah and i think three those you can find me. And i'd love to hear from anyone and book is translated in turkish russian serbian. The english did the paperback novels. Here in conscience all on amazon or rs noble. And if you do audible that sort of thing. I actually recorded the audio. That was that was that was an adventure but it was really fun so anyway. I hear your thoughts about the book and if i can help. Helpful crime will puzzle those links in the senate so pickled quick strike through now. Do you have any parting advice. Rally size we wrap this up. Why i i feel like i've said probably a lot. I think a certain talked a lot. It's hope that. I said a lot of but i would. I would say that for me. One thing that is in my mind a lot and maybe it does have to do with sixty now and to knee. Anyways that feels young grandmother. Younger one feels But one thing. I do very aware of now. Is that when i look back in my life often when i trust my instincts and i went after something really big whether i succeeded or not. It's okay. I feel so good that i went after am i look back in my life and i think in the times when i treated people right whether it was a friendship relationship professional relationship i feel good about and if there's times when i feel like i could. I remember the times. When i feel i could have done a little more so i often say that tonight students is take the high road from people right just pursue the things that you're hungry sue and their lives or anything like mine. I feel like i can live with my my failures. Federal seem that way seems the fact that i had the courage to fight for that and and i think it you know the i mean i'm reflecting a low tone whenever traded people badly. And you know you go back to younger days and you're impulsive and paps reactive and and there were times when i have to say that wasn't the best way to do. It said today on a lot more conscious of that site. Trading people rod really going may night. i'm sure we in the scope of the world. We were both probably pretty good people all the time. But i think it's i think it's recognizing the taking the high road in treating people. Right is easier than having to decide if some other approach you should. I thankfully i think i usually did the right thing and the times that i didn't i still remember very clearly and i think so what i'm talking to people in offering my you know n- advice it's usually gesturing people right and just fight for care about spend any time trying to decide. That might be perfect. Just throw it was just gonna say Than lying and then maintaining the laws i think is customer energy much as it just to be transparent and honest and do the right thing jap beautifully said. I totally agree or i. Finally who else should i get this podcast. And why why. I'm gonna send you a couple different thoughts. I wrote out to my colleague at columbia university. Paul ingram and he. He said absolutely his loves a i last Last fall. I had young novelist sitting in on my mba class. Seen abigail rosewood is. She wrote a book came out a couple of years. Call if i had to lies. And i found it really interesting to bring a young novelist into a group of graduate students in have talk about the entrepreneurial elements of trying to pursue her vision. So here i am. You know much later in my by arc of my life talking about it. And i think having someone who's earlier younger in that stage talking about it could be really great. Then i have a few other aussies. I've got to track down while she shoot. You got to have some. His honor is what's so we'll get in touch with poll and abigail and from unc. Whether we can line up times where we can can bring them on the shows. Well i think they would both be wonderful. Paul's of world-class professor teacher in my success is probably sixty. Percents is support and energy entrance. Teaching will thanks for that. And thanks so much for sharing your time and your insights Generously die really enjoyed this of enjoy. That conversation and I i was a little apprehensive. Not having really paid any attention. At all. To game of thrones that aren't get meaning out of that but when i when i read the book now this plenty of good information here that i can take away. Even though i haven't seen game of thrones so i encourage the listener gallon ray the book check it out. And even if you haven't watch game of thrones it might actually lead you to come binge-watch. I said i said to bros before the might be responsible for may be watching demos runs now so yes All of s for the future. Bruce and let stayntouch thanks. That was wonderful pleasure. And i really appreciate it. Hope you enjoyed that. Ruin engaging and insightful conversation with bruce and took something away from his episode bruce shed some much value in the stories. We discussed today the concept of shared values and not assuming that others who share your values have the same priorities. They were the ones that stood out for me. And of course the idea of based leadership. I'd love to know what you took away from bruce's episode leave a comment below the blog. Post which you can find another biz dot. Co forward slash. Bruce craven that is b. r. u. c. a. c. r. iv in all lowercase or one word in other biz dot co forward slash. Bruce craven you'll also find contact information there for getting in touch with bruce as well as links to the craven leadership website to the book win or die leadership secrets. From game of thrones to bruce's social media pages and the other resources we spoke about in today's conversation. Nephew liked this episode place. Don keep it to yourself shared with two other people at least two other people who it might help and tagging on that shares. Sir i can reach out to you and thank you. Bruce suggested that we have a conversation with columbia business. School professor's po ingram and bill duggan as well as novelist abigail rosewood on future enough above podcast episodes so pull abigail and bill. Keep an eye on your inbox for an invitation from us to the inova bus podcast. Courtesy of bruce. Craven kunin again to the next episode of the inevitable's podcast. We've got yet more fantastic s lined up including rotting and editing coach. Definitely gray grant and business operations architect sydell stewart. Thanks for listening to this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show to be reminded of episodes. It's free to subscribe labor review. Like even amac. I'm asking you to leave a review because it helps other people find show inova biz dot. Co two joint marketing transformation community and excess a free gift. My team and i might view it's the mocking mazda mini class. We wanna give you everything you need to transform your marketing into a human senate relationship trumka's whereas engine until next on on your stress from enough of his remember be awesome and keep innovating