19 Episode results for "Sean Rotherham"
Noise will be noise
"It was in two thousand fourteen when Carthage TALLEC are. I heard the sound. This low pitched wine e gene. He was living in this neighborhood and Arizona in Chandler Arizona. He'd moved there with his family and used to you decompress after work by taking long walks around the neighborhood at night and it was on one of these nights that he I noticed this low steady wine. Somewhere in the distance sounded like concept White And at first he brushed off. Thought you know maybe someone's pull up but then later night he heard it again and again and again and night after night after night. He was noticing it as he was going outside. Garden Gordon or grill that it was in his backyard and then worst yet he was trying to go to sleep one night when he noticed that there was that noise inside his house that was in his bedroom and it was keeping him up at night. I had a hard time falling asleep and then after falling asleep on three or four. Am It would get very loud. You would pick up. It sounded as he described it later. Like these tons of mosquitoes buzzing in your ear. Only they wouldn't stop them. He tried to move bedrooms. He started sleeping with earplugs when that didn't help you tight a towel around his head and night after night he would try. Try and fall asleep with its earplugs in his head bandaged and the sound just wouldn't stop. It looks like constant video editing and it was very upset. Carthage didn't know at this point where the noise was coming from. And so he's set out to figure out what was causing it and he would go out at night on what he called. These noise patrols I he set out by foot but when that didn't really work. He started to widen his circumference and I started expanding the perimeter driving in my car biking bike to figure out where the noises coming from and he would stop every so often to listen for the noise after eight weeks or so car. Thick finally traced the noise backed. What he thought was the source? It was this gray windowless building with all the charm of a shoebox and it belonged. He discovered to a company called Cyrus. One Cyrus one was a data center basically a column Barium for thousands of servers the servers that were hosting data to make it accessible for processing processing or access from just about anywhere in the world has discovered. The noise was being unfortunately not caused by something temporary. This wasn't just the noise of construction but the noise was the steady hum of chillers. These big essentially air conditioning units that had been installed installed on the buildings and were there in order to keep the servers cool servers sort of like people are most comfortable at around sixty to ninety degrees Fahrenheit and so these chillers ensured that these heat generating servers would stay cool enough as they worked. We hear a lot about storing data in the cloud. It's such a lovely elegant euphemism. This idea of data sort of existing in the ether but in fact it exists in places like Cyrus one in some ways. The sound of Cyrus One's datacenter this low so often the desert. That's the sound of US living a bus clicking of US searching for lyrics online shopping poking people on facebook liking instagram posts. That's our noise too so carthy began to try and take action to silence this noise. He's Carthage actually reached out directly to someone from Cyrus wanting called him very late at night when he was unable to sleep because of the noise. And this other man said that he was trying to sleep and Carthy told him that I am trying to fall asleep to dude. He took this issue to anyone. One he could think of his homeowners association the members of the city council the mayor the police. He sent them an email actually saying do not think I am imagining. Thinks here in Wisden. People's time he added that he'd taken his family with him in one of these noise patrols. I drove my entire family to the same spot and they the two could hear the noise. He was told there was nothing they could do. He was told it wasn't that big of a deal and to him. The noise just got worse. I Cyrus one kept building. They were expanding they added more buildings they bought more land. They added more chillers. There were Nice where at Carthage perfect just couldn't get to sleep whatsoever. He started wearing earplugs sometimes during the day when he drive home. It was always with this sense of dread of returning back. ACT The noise. He thought about installing new windows or planting trees to block the sound but in the end he decided that even though he lose money even though he'd have to move to through smaller house he was just going to have to sell his home. It was around three years after Carthage. Had I heard word That another neighbor of his began to hear this humming coming across the street from her house. Here over half a mile away on on walnut and Bluebird we walk outside our house. There's annoys then. There was another neighbor that noticed that there was this constant constant steady wind like what one person described as sort of like a constantly rubbing engine or the jet getting ready for take-off I would describe it as a blender blender on steroids but at a distant so it's like a just drills in your head almost like a mosquito in the past half years I can honestly say I've not slept a full night's asleep wave comes and goes to me. This sounds like someone is down my street in their car laying on their horn nonstop and finally one of Carthage neighbors who lived nearby but in a slightly different housing development began to post these flyers around the neighborhood asking if anyone else had been bothered authored by the wine. This is the lovely noise and we are right next to Dobson Park. We are in the middle of the neighborhood and you can hear it this morning and it felt strangely relief. I won't say good. I would use the word relieved. I was relieved that others are having the same issue and that we are are going to potentially come together to solution. Eventually with the added force of all these neighbors together they were able to get a sit down meeting through the city with Cyrus one. It's a sound that just won't go away allowed. How consuming a Chandler neighborhood? You can hear the hum of those fans if you're out playing at the park like these kids are tonight. The problem is so can the hundreds of neighbors that live across the the St Cyrus one actually did vowed that they were going to do something about this. They said they would spend around two million dollars to install noise abatement around the chillers essentially to wrap them in these blankets that were designed to muffle some of the sound so there is progress. That's being made on this. Although although there are neighbors that I spoke with who will tell you that. They don't think it's better yet. Cyrus one told the city they address the noise on twenty four of there chillers neighbors say it hasn't changed granted. The company is doing something but of course devilish thing about our noises once you notice Orissa and especially when you're irritated by it. It can be very very hard to unlearn here. There's research that shows that we actually start to listen for the noise. That irritates us that we train ourselves to pick it up even better than we did at the outset so while the low pitched wine plagued the specific specific neighborhood and Chandler Arizona. Noise isn't just a problem. That exists there all of us are affected by it in ways. I think most of us don't realize we're thinking about. I mean knows this violation that we can't control and to which because of our anatomy we cannot close ourselves off and research shows that the world is getting noisier. I think that noise tends to be this issue that we dismiss as this kind of minor issue for cranks go for the idle rich but in fact it's an incredibly widespread problem and one needs to be taken more seriously coming up the dangers and the weaponization of noise. I'm no I'm Hassenfeld. Filling in for Sean Rotherham. This is today explained Maybe you know what you're doing with stocks but I have a feeling that you don't which is why you should probably check out so-fi so fi is basically investing made easy. It's the first investing platform to offer stocks. Automated investing in Crypto. All in one tripped out and with so five bits. You can get a piece of your favorite brands stock with as little as a dollar. Here's how it works. I go to S-o-f-i dot com slash explained and create an account. Then either choose do it yourself or let Sophie's automated investing build you a portfolio again. You get started with as little as one dollar and and listeners. Who Fund their account at S-o-f-i Dot com slash explained will receive twenty five dollars in mystery stock? Just signing up mystery stock. Get your free mystery. Stock at S. O. F. DOT com slash explained so Lennon Corp CFL number six zero five four six one two to extort Ivanka busker the Atlantic. How big of a problem is noise? Exactly do people really care about it. They do and we should all care more about it nor is is a huge issue and really. It's always been an issue. I mean the earliest recorded noise complaint is four thousand years old. ooh It's from the epic of Gilgamesh. One of the gods were so irritated by the racket caused by humans that he he and the Council of God's decided to solve the problem by exterminating mankind. And there are a number of cases even since the beginning of the year here of people shooting each other killing each other in part because of noise and in case there's any doubt as to just how offensive of and harmful noise can be. I think it's worth noting that the US military and law enforcement have actually repeatedly relied on noise as as a weapon. They've used it to try and hurry up getting the dictator. Manuel Noriega to surrender by actually just pounding. His hideout with kiss troops have used it in Iraq I mean blasting the battlefield ahead of time. What kind of stuff guns and roses? ACC and they've used noise in the form of torture technique to the meow. Mix Jingle so we want to ask. That sounds miserable yum yum yum yum yum yum. Yeah like a technical goal definition of noise. What's what's the best way to think about it? There are various definitions of noise but noiselessly different from sound noise already that word word implies sound with the judgment right. Sound that is annoying sounded is disturbing and part of what makes noise such a difficult thing thing to fight is that it is subjective. I spoke with an acoustic expert. Described it to me as sound when you mow your lawn noise as is when your neighbor in those their lawn and music is when your neighbor. Mos- your lawn and I think what's tricky about noise as a kind of faux is that it doesn't leave a trace it vanishes when you go after. It's hard to measure it's hard to describe and again it's subjective. You know your music literally. Sometimes right. If you're living in an apartment with your neighbors blasting music is oftentimes minorities you know one also thing to keep in mind is. That noise isn't necessarily loud. I think a lot of us had this idea via that. Sound has to be at a really high volume to drive US crazy. And if you ever tried to sleep through like a dripping faucet you know that something can be very quiet and still drive you up the wall so it can be annoying for people. I is it actually bad. Is it bad for health or anything like that. Yeah well there's certain short-term effects of noise so in response to noise you know we release stress. Hormones are blood pressure goes up our heart rate rises houses and our body can respond to noise especially in night as low as around thirty three decibels which is around as loud as purring cat. Studies have shown that over long periods of time prolonged exposure to noise can lead to a higher risk of high blood pressure coronary heart disease. Heart Attacks Strokes Diabetes Dementia Depression. It can be very harmful to children. There was a landmark. Study that was done in the seventies that there were two classrooms in in a school in New York one of which was very close to the clatter of a subway track and they found that the reading level of that noisy classroom through was actually around a year behind that of students in a quieter classroom and that difference disappeared once they installed some noise. Abatement meant to reduce the sound. Is it mostly affecting people that live in. Cities is it affecting certain types of populations differently. Noise levels tend to be higher in poorer communities liberty's as well as neighborhoods that have higher populations of black Asian and Latino residents and in fact these researchers thought that their numbers numbers might actually underestimate the difference because people who are wealthier probably take soundproofing measures to even further protect themselves from any noise that may exist. I like you're paying a premium for silence when you pay more for housing or something or even quiet quiet as something. That's only accessible to people who work on lush corporate campuses or have the money to go to spas or silent yoga retreats or you name it to escape again. I think we often think about noise as being the kind of one percent problem. Something that people they complain about the leaf blowers their vacation homes but in fact noise can have an undue burden on people that don't the have the resources to protect themselves from it. There really is a concern. That silence and quiet is becoming a luxury. I imagine there are different laws in different places about this. Is there like a national law against noise. In any way the federal government briefly had an appetite for noise legislation relation in the seventies in nineteen. Seventy two the Nixon administration passed a federal statute designed to quiet the country but in in Nineteen ninety-one just nine years later. The Reagan administration withdrew funding for that. And so since then as one of these experts put it the Federal Government Overman has essentially been out of the noise business and the burden has fallen to local governments to really take charge on quieting their constituents so if the burden is falling to local communities what kind of regulations do they have. How do you even stop things like this? In general local noise codes tend to be either qualitative or quantitative qualitative basically prohibits any sort of noise. That is disturbing or unreasonably loud. But they don't go so far as to to define what constitutes disturbing or unreasonably loud. A quantitative noise code on the other hand will define in quantitative measurable terms terms what is disturbing or unreasonably loud. So New York City for example has a quantitative noise code. There are rules that say that a dog can't bark for more than ten contiguous minutes between seven. AM and ten PM. Believe that's what it says but between ten PM and seven. Am I believe a dog. I can only for five continuous minutes. Seriously that's a real thing. Yeah I mean if a dog is barking for three continuous minutes at two in the morning I think Jack. Luckily it's okay but there are noise. Researchers argue that even with these measurements we may not be measuring noise correctly. AH NOISE CODES TEND to not put as much weight on. Let's say very low frequency noise that can travel very far distances and be it can be felt low frequency noise. That's things like the rattled from sub Woofer or the thudding of a bus outside the things that you may feel right more than you can actually hear them. Yeah I remember when I lived in New York I lived with his restaurant and they would play music pretty late at night and when I went down to ask them to turn it down and it just wasn't that loud down there I mean I could feel it upstairs because of the base but down there it just seemed like it was at a normal volume right but I'm sure you were annoyed by it. I mean not to worry you but it probably wasn't good for you either. So with the Cyrus one example simple you said. They ended up wrapping the chillers to make the noise better. Even if you're not exactly sure if that ended up working but did they have to do that was it. Because of a noise always code violation. I know from speaking with a local police commander in Chandler. That there wasn't really appetite to issue a citation to Cyrus Fun. It wasn't something that at least at the time they fell had violated the noise code when the city issued the permits. They weren't required to consider her the noise footprint of Cyrus one nor did they. I think what was frustrating for the neighbors was that the police would common in sample the sound whereas they were living with it. What can be kind of tolerable during a brief visit? Something very different. When it's inescapable an so cyrus one hasn't to my knowledge technically violated some code or ordinance that the city has put in place and unless they are trying as they put it to be good? Neighbors are taking some efforts to try and quiet themselves. Okay just to be clear. It's really noisy out there. And the regulations that we do have aren't exactly doing too much. Do we just have to get used to a noisy world. I think it's important to appreciate the way that the nature of noises changing. It used to be that a lot of the noise was created by the human hand. You know we were ringing bells. We were driving carriages. We were crying as town. Criers a now when you look at the noise. That's being produced. I think one thing. That's kind of chilling is the way that it's become autonomous. Right machines are inexhaustible source of noise. You know their vocal chords don't tire. They don't need to take a break. They can just keep going and they can be amplified of course people who spend a lot of time in quiet. Talk about really being able to tune into yourself more to not be accosted with a this external activation all the time because we have become so surrounded by noise. I think a lot of us have responded by adding our own noise always to it. You know we insulate ourselves from outside noise by giving ourselves personal. We listen to podcasts. We listen into music and so I think in some ways that may not be helping the problem do want people to listen to the end of this podcast but I also think that in some ways we reacted defensively to noise by adding more noise right and I think it raises the question of if we took out art earphones if we had to listen to the sound of our cities of our environment where we hear bothered by it and if we are bothered by it let's do something about it. I wonder if people haven't turned US off already. Maybe we can use a couple of seconds of quiet gotTA RUIN IT Bianca. busker is a contributing writer for the Atlantic. She also writes books for most recent one is called Cork Dork and and it's all about one. Thanks for connecting us with Carthage Todd. I'm no I'm Hassenfeld filling in for Sean Ramos Forum. This is today explained.
6.6 million more unemployed
"In my it's Thursday April second twenty twenty and this month is already looking like it's going to be tougher than March. I'm Sean Rotherham. And this is your corona virus update from today explained. Today we got news at six point. Six million Americans filed for unemployment last week that brings the total number. To ten million Americans will have lost their jobs in just the last two weeks much more detail on that in today's episode. The loss of jobs in America also means the loss of health insurance according to an analysis of state and federal data from the Economic Policy Institute. Roughly three point five million Americans likely lost their health insurance in the past two weeks. And that's of course scary because not only are we in the middle of a global pandemic but the United States has the most cases of covert nineteen in the world. Something like two hundred and fifty thousand. We have doubled the number of confirmed cases in Italy in better news. Florida is finally taking the series. Lead the governor there ordered residents to stay at home on Wednesday shortly after the number of confirmed covert nineteen cases. There jumped by more than a thousand in a single twenty four hour period. Florida now has over. Eight thousand confirmed cases. Nearly forty of these United States have now issued. Stay at home. Notices Texas is the biggest hold out there about four thousand confirmed Cova nineteen cases there meanwhile in New York where the is still just the worst the state one out of ventilators in six days according to the New York Times the state has close to one hundred thousand confirmed cases thirteen thousand or so have been hospitalized and over three thousand are in intensive care to governor. There says that buying more ventilators has been tough with so much competition around the country and the world without them. Doctors will be left making some very tough decisions from tough decisions. To a good one. The Democratic National Convention has been postponed. It was going to be July in the walking now maybe August remember the Jaw Bernie show. I don't you are emailing us. Corona virus questions today explain at. Vox Dot Com. Trust me that we see you even. If we don't get to reply we see your tweets today explained at Romney's firm we hear your voicemails at two two six eight eight five nine four. Thank you for keeping in touch even from Far Away. This episode is brought to you by. Us Cellular. There's never been a better time to switch to US cellular because now when you do you'll get fifty percents off. Select New smartphones like the Samsung Galaxy S. ten or the Google Pixel for a great choice on a great phone. Now that's fair. Us Cellular Choose. Fair terms apply Matthew Yglesias I get a lot of push notifications about this crisis that we're in and they seldom scare me but today I got a few that made me feel fear for this country. We got some shocking numbers. What were they so initial unemployment claims for the week that ended on March twenty eighth came out and it was off the charts insane. Six point six million new people filed for unemployment benefits. That was double what we saw in the previous week and that previous week was itself record these newest numbers. They are ten times. The biggest figure that we've seen outside of the context of March twenty twenty situation. That looked incredibly bad a week ago is getting worse at a really frightening pace so these are historic numbers just one week after we got historic numbers and this historic number is exponentially bigger than that last. One Yeah I mean we've had if you take these at face value ten million job losses over two weeks in March that's equivalent to the first six months of the great recession Just packed into a single two week period. We have had high unemployment in the past but we have never had this kind of incredibly rapid increase. And of course you see it. I mean if you walk around in in. Dc for approved recreational activities. You see like tons of stores are closed which you know we know it's what people have been putting out there but it means that people are losing their jobs that losing them really really really fast and we've never seen anything remotely like this in past recessions. Now you pay attention to numbers like these. Most people are just trying to figure out how to live their lives in this moment. Did people expect this huge jump in the unemployment numbers just from the historic numbers? We got last week. You know people expected a big number as they tried to use some inferences based on Google searches and state level data and what. I was ready for last night I was. I was getting ready to cover this story Thursday morning and I was prepared for. Maybe five million initial claims would have been crazy. That would have been an all time record. I was expecting the worst figures ever and we got something worse than what I was expecting. And the exact same thing happened the previous week we had been looking at an estimate from Goldman Sachs that said there might be two and a quarter million initial claims. That's really bad. That would be much worse than anything that happened before. Instead we got over three million so people are expecting extremely rapid deterioration in the economy and it keeps deteriorating faster than we expect is part of the issue here that the counts. That we're getting aren't the full picture is that what's going on. So it's GonNa get worse every week as as the picture becomes clearer. I mean that's an alarming possibility. Here reports you hear anecdotes are that phone lines. State unemployment offices have been jammed. Websites have crashed a so it is very possible that there are hundreds of thousands of people who've been trying to file claims but haven't succeeded in doing so yet and that we're going to see those numbers come online in the next week or two. The other thing to keep in mind is that you know March. Twenty eighth was not that long ago but in corona virus crisis terms like every day is like a lifetime and a lot of large southern states. Florida Georgia in particular only adopted new shutdown measures after that window closed. So there's plenty of more places for this. Economic Tidal wave hit once we get Next week's data and then the thing you really have to worry about is secondary and tertiary consequences. Because we assume that we're looking right now at people who've lost their jobs because their businesses shut down specifically because of the virus but then when people lose their jobs they have less money when people hear these terrifying headlines about job losses they spend less money so lots of companies that are still operating right. You can go online today and you can buy all kinds of durable goods right like you could order a chair. You computer you could get a suit made by Whatever custom fabricators like? There's a lot of stuff for sale that has not been impacted by the virus but if millions of people lose their jobs. They're not GONNA buy furniture. They'RE NOT GONNA buy Computers. And we're GONNA SEE MORE COMPANIES. Start to get hurt and sort of a recession that builds on itself totally separately from the public health crisis. We're looking at so last week's numbers were three million and people were shocked. This week's numbers are six million and we are even more shocked. Should we be bracing for twelve million next week? I mean and and how long does this continue? I don't think we will see that kind of growth pattern. Because of the virus we've gotten used to thinking an exponential terms the labor market normally. Doesn't work like that. But we could see easily another number in the millions of which we've never had before March fried so even if this slows even if it's slow substantially we're still good me looking at a velocity that we have no with and we're still going to have the question of our people even successfully getting through in the systems It's a crazy to me that Congress has gone out of town until April twentieth. You think about like. Where are we going to be six or seven weeks from now? Like what's GonNa be left and it's it's a mind boggling. I mean you think okay like we will find a bottom somewhere but the economy doesn't necessarily work like that the more people who lose their jobs the more at risk everybody else is. We all know restaurants in our communities or people who work in food service WHO'VE LOST THEIR JOBS. We also know other people who are hanging on trying to do curbside takeout trying to do delivery and you know good for them. God bless but if so many people lose their jobs that they can't afford take out meals splurge like that we're gonNA see more shutdowns even in that industry at we're seeing the advertising market in the industry we work in looking pretty scary unless we can do something to actually put a floor under the economy. It can keep falling and falling and falling for a really long time. My name is Ben Covari. I was an IT project manager for an Office Space Company in New York City and I was laid off along with about forty percent of our stuff at the end of last week. I logged onto the unemployment website to try and file immediately front employment but I found out that the date that you have to file on employment in New York is based upon the first letter of your last name. I assume that was because they are inundated with calls because of the current crisis. Once I completed the application I had to call in to complete and confirm all of my info so I got the phone number from the website and I called in one in about ten calls that I placed to the unemployment office actually connected and got me to the menu the other ninety percent of the dials that I placed resulted in either immediate call failure or an error message from verizon telling me my call cannot be completed so I probably called about several times over the course of a couple of days. When you did get through to a menu you had to enter your social security number and a pin number that you created online over once. You've completed the social security number and pin. You got an automatic recording that said we are experiencing high call volume. Please call back this week and then it just disconnected so the only thing to do was to dial and of course with only one in ten calls even getting through to the menu is timely process to try and get through so I kept dialing and dialing and I kept filling out my social security number my pin number and just resulting every time in the same we are experiencing high call volume. Please call back this week. Disconnect one time I got lucky I enter my social security number my pin number and instead of getting disconnected on. I got a new message that said. Thank you for calling your estimated. Wait time is forty to forty five minutes and then I was put on. Hold something that had never happened before so I sat on hold and when I reached about forty to forty two minutes on. Hold it disconnected. That was obviously extremely frustrating. And I was ready to throw my phone out the window at that point so I was talking to a friend of mine who is also let go for my company. There's a bunch of US actually. On an alumni slack channel there are people who have called over thousand times and have not been able to get through to human being yet so I was talking to one friend of mine and I told him that I got through to be on hold and then I got disconnected a little bit later in the day. He called me and when I picked up he had gotten through and he then asked the representative if he could conference in his friend. E myself to complete my application and to my surprise she said yes so my friend conference me into his existing call with a representative from the New York. State unemployment office and She was okay with it. She let me go through the process of confirming my information. She gave me a warning that my friend who was still conference in on the phone was going to be able to hear my social security number and personal information. I said I didn't mind and she was able to complete my application and it saves me an immense amount of time. You know Kudos to that individual who was working and understood the trouble that a lot of people are going through right now. It was a pretty terrible process trying to get through. You have to understand the strain that the system is under with millions of people in the same boat that I am in unfortunately so I I try to temper my temper for lack of a better term but It's extremely frustrating. You know I've seen screen shots again. In that alumni slack channel of people posting pictures of their recent call history. And it's the unemployment office filling up the entire screen with hundreds and thousands of calls so. I am extremely fortunate that I didn't quite make it to four digits. I was only in the triple digits number of calls but I can't even imagine what it's been like for a lot of other people who have been stuck at home under a quarantine having nothing to do but hoping to get lucky and reach a person at the unemployment office. Congress is out of the office right now but Luckily Matthew Yglesias has a plan to get us out of this mess and he'll share it with for free after the break. I'm Sean Ramos Forum and this today explained. This episode is brought to you by. Us Cellular. There's never been a better time to switch to us because now when you do you'll get fifty percent off your choice of select new smartphones. That's amazing phones. Lake the Samsung Galaxy s ten e or the Pixel for a great choice on a great phone. Now that's fair. Us Cellular Choose Fair. Terms apply check. Us Cellular Dot Com for details. Hey It's curious wisher you may know me as the only person who looks cool wearing sunglasses indoors but in my spare time. I host a podcast called Rico decode every week. We talk about power changed the people you need to know around tech and beyond some of my recent guests include Edward Snowden Megan repeal no and the cast of the ellwood which was a huge thrill for me. If any of these sound interesting to you should listen to them. Now on Rico. Decode subscribe to the show for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast APP to be the first to hear new interviews every week. You wrote a piece recently. That said that we as a country need a wartime style mobilization to get out of this crisis last week. Congress passed its big phase three stimulus package two trillion dollars unprecedented in the modern era. Is that the kind of mobilization you're talking about? It's good that they did that but it's not nearly good enough so they hasn't bill. The stock market went up in response. a number of other indicators that the bond market inflation expectations all showed progress as a result of that bill unfortunately congress brain is like they did a big thing the response to it was positive and then they left town for a series of weeks but if you look at all of those indicators that were positive they didn't get us back to where we want to be with stocks with interest rates with inflation expectations. So the real lesson. They should've taken from the success of that. Two trillion package is they oughta try another two trillion and see where we are maybe two trillion more two trillion on top of that. Like when you're working on a problem of large but unknown scope you gotTa keep trying and then you gotta look and you got to reassess. And that's not what they did. So you drew up a vision for Congress. Because they're not doing their jobs right now. What do you think they should be doing? Yeah so I mean. I think there's three buckets of activities that Congress needs to look at one is just putting money into people's hands so they have cached spent even more money yes The second is looking at mobilizing industries that do relevant things. That's the ventilators that we've talked about a lot. It's the ninety five respirators and other personal protective equipment that healthcare professionals need. But it's also stuff that regular people could use things like disposable surgical masks gloves hand sanitizer lysol wipes all kinds of things. Where if you go online or you go to your store you're gonNA see shortages right now. Those things we could be a need to be producing more and the government should be leading that effort. The last thing is supporting state and local governments financially because we are at a big risk of seeing a sort of secondary and tertiary economic collapse as state governments need to start laying people off and cutting services. Okay let's go through the three of them starting with just putting more money in people's hands now Congress just did that and they did it in a historic way. But you're saying that's not enough. They need to do more of it. Yeah I mean twelve hundred dollar. Checks is nice and the unemployment benefits to people who've lost their jobs is very important. But you know people could use more money There are lots of goods and services that remain for sale. Today at you can get food delivered to your house. You can get takeout. You can buy different things at the grocery store. You can order a new computer. You can make a remote appointment with a therapist. You can do a telemedicine consultation with doctor. Who doesn't specialize in Corona virus viewpoint subscribe to extract services right and a lot of the discourse around this has been dominated by experts which is good but people who are in relatively privileged positions in life and they're sort of main personal experience of the economic situation is oh. I might like to go out to eat with my friends. But I can't because the social distancing but you gotta think about typical people who are just cash constrained all the time in their ability to get takeout food in their ability to just buy durable goods for the house and if we have more money in people's hands those industries that are still functioning can function better as opposed to a situation where everybody gets poorer and then nobody can buy things and then industries that aren't impacted by the crisis. Start to collapse. Well let's talk about those empty shelves and the things people really want. I haven't seen toilet paper at the grocery store I go to in weeks. Luckily I have stashed because Terry next door invited us to costco once last September. What could the government do to fix this so right now? We have a lot of government efforts to prevent price gouging right because we're trying to manage shortages. And that's good. I mean you don't want to see shortages managed poorly but you would really like to see is addressing the shortages and that means identifying key commodities. I would say hand sanitizers Surgical style masks gloves disinfecting wipes other things like that and say look. We are going to guarantee purchase at a slightly elevated price. Not like a crazy like seven thousand percent markup but like yeah you can get fifteen percent higher prices than you normally would for hand sanitizer and the government will buy it if you can't sell it to stores and that is what gives companies the incentive to run the factory twenty four hours a day right to actually increase production. Because the problem with doing everything on a price control basis is that ramping up is expensive. We've got a number of stories. I've seen them locally and nationally of distilleries places that make booze saying we're GONNA make hand sanitizer because you use alcohol in in both cocktails and cleaning equipment. But often what they're doing is sort of a a stunt where they're making it and they're giving it away which is great. It's a great charitable endeavor but to really go on a large scale you need to mobilize greed and the profit motive. You need people to be saying yes. I am going to undertake the expense of retooling my distillery to make hand sanitizer to hire some of the people who have recently lost their jobs to work extra shifts so that we can make more of this sanitizer and to do that you do need to offer a premium over regular prices but then it can be okay because the government can pay the premium right. Instead of talking about protecting people from price increases. We should be spending the money to get what it takes if feels like. We'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT INITIATIVES. The federal government could take us far. But your third point was that we need to bolster state and local governments to help them help people to I imagine. Yeah absolutely because right. Now you're looking at a real crisis. In state and Local Government finances. A lot of state and local governments relied very heavily in retail sales taxes. Most of them put extra sort of taxes on restaurant meals or alcohol that sold which makes a lot of sense for sort of tax theory reasons but it means the revenue is getting hammered at the same time they have additional expenses. Right governments that are trying to do. The right thing are trying to deliver food to kids. Who Normally get school meals? They have police officers working extra shifts and hazardous conditions. They are trying to disinfect their buses and their Metros they're doing stuff like that But really soon they're gonNA hit the wall and they are going to have to start. Furloughing workers are laying people off we saw during the great recession of two thousand eight. Two thousand nine with the federal government did a trillion dollars in stimulus but more than one hundred percent of that was offset by state and local governments doing cutbacks. New York we know is in this incredible emergency right now and earlier. This week they passed a budget. That's GONNA cut Medicaid because they have no choice. Only the federal government operates free of budget constraint and can just sort of hand out huge buckets of cash to state and local governments so they can keep providing essential services so the federal government right now needs to shore up people needs to shore up business needs to shore up state and local governments basically needs to shore up everything. Can we afford to engage in a stimulus at this level? I mean I'm sure. Congress passed the two trillion dollar thing and said like well. We've never done something like that before. Let's go back to our families in practice safe social distancing or whatever. Was that a terrible mistake. I mean I think you have to ask. Can we afford to not do this stuff? Can we afford to not mobilize fully? Can we afford to have healthy able bodied people sitting at home losing income becoming depressed when they could be making things that are useful to fighting this virus and I use the analogy of wartime? Which a lot of people have thrown around sort of loosely. But I think we should take fairly literally at during World War. Two the Federal Reserve and other central banks around the world it coordinated very directly with the Treasury to essentially print money and cover the cost of things to ensure that if we lost a battle it would be because we didn't have enough tanks. We didn't have enough planes that because we didn't have enough money matters. A wartime mobilization is what are the actual resources of your country at we are not out of textile factories? We are not out of distilleries. We're not out of people who are capable of working in those places. It does seem like we are out of ventilators and respirators and we need to do the work to increase our capacity to produce those things but in all of these cases it's the real resources that matter more than money and we need a central bank that is willing to say that the Fed has done a lot of stuff Dramatic kinds of things basically to make sure that anybody who wants a loan can get one at a cheap interest rate and that's fantastic. But they need to say really clearly that it does not matter how much debt the federal government takes on they will provide that infinite backstop until this crisis is past and just to be clear to people. How do we get the money to pay for all of this stuff? How do we get the two trillion to to fund that stimulus short so that the technical way that this happens is right now? Congress spends money and the Treasury Department sells bonds at auction and those bonds carrying interest rate. And then the Fed has said. Recently it will go buy bonds so essentially they create money out of thin air and use it to purchase bonds and those bonds financed the federal government. So that's what they're doing that's correct. That's the appropriate thing to do. What I'm calling for is a clear statement from the Fed. That says it doesn't matter how much congress spends that if they go to four trillion if they go to ten trillion whatever they. WanNa do the Fed will buy up all those bonds right so that there is a guarantee that they will be able to sell them. There will be a market and in an essence would be quote unquote printing money. They don't actually print anything It's just all done computers But you know pure financial constraints should not be what limits us here. Is it fair to say what you're talking about is is sort of printing money against faith in the United States? Yeah I mean again you know you look at something like i. I was taking my son to old civil war battlefield because I was trying to find someplace that will be empty and one thing that happened. There is the confederate government. They printed money to finance their war effort. And it was fine until it became clear that they were gonNA lose at that point. Their money lost all value. If people think that the virus is going to crush the American economy and American society then our money will become worthless but printing too much is not gonna do that as long as we have confidence that we're going to beat this thing and I fully believe that we can. I mean we have the scientific resources we have the production resources What we need is to actually do the work. Just as we have an other moments of great national crisis worst case scenario if we look back two years from now and we say that really bad thing that happened in the fall and winter of two thousand twenty is that prices went up for five percent because we've printed too much. That would be an incredible success story right. We are worried about now is large scale. Deaths and mass unemployment if we can avoid those fates at the cost of a little bit of inflation. That would be an incredible success right now. Though we're looking at an it's it's terrifying you.
STD (Save the Date) (w/ Sean Rameswaram, Leah Bonnema)
"A majority of Americans can't tell the difference between real news and fiction. And that's a huge problem but you can be a part of the solution. Z News Literacy project helps next next generation understand. What news is real? And what's not giving them the tools to sort fact from fiction and identify the information that they can trust share. An Act on news literacy is a critical life skills especially for today students who are tomorrow's Baltimore's and decision makers as a part of the initiative educators journalists and media organizations work together to spark discussions about the importance of news literacy and the rule of free press in a healthy democracy through virtual lessons training programs and classroom visits. They're also celebrating. National News Literacy Week from January twenty seven to February second was special programs and events throughout the country so to learn more about the project. And how you can share your support court go to news. Lit Dot Org. That's any W. S. L. Dot. Org News Lit Dot Org. Hello this is Vicky box and I have a podcast man. Doing Great and what I plan on doing is Carol car car to ask questions that they might not have. Thought I was GONNA ask them. Doing Drake is a podcast. That have come out on day January. Twenty seven on Apple. podcast ever the hell else you can find podcast. We will be the nation episode. What eighty five you were in my dream two nights ago? Nice lady you were you you weren't you were like so. No that's your were you. So how nice lady thing like a meme or something. My colleague on his twitter bio guy is just nice. Lady that's I take issue with it because I use that like actively as an actual way to describe people that a lot but like you know the feeling again. You're like that person nicely. She is a nice. Aw That's nice okay. A are you guys ready. If I can start talking to a Nice Lake it is your daughter coming on tele- hello this nation. We talk about news. We talk about politics where we dream of of having the Dexter backup dancers. I WANNA give Farside and is it too embarrassing for me to admit right now just between we knew guys and then all of the listeners of the nation that I really enjoy like an aerobic dance workout where you learn a fucking sequence and it's just like a straight eight up dance class anyways in New York kimmy up. I have a couple of suggestions Today we're GONNA talk about the President's Mideast Skis Plan Cute We're also going to talk about the impeachment. The Elections Corona virus. So it is just Shit upon shit of bullet points ear at face the nation so excited well you know what is it a shit up on Shit Shit the panel that we assembled here today. Nicely you guys. I'm so excited because for the first time ever we have on the show a whole host of today explain which is boxes little daily daily podcast jam and listen to what you're doing wrong things in life. It's so great it's all great. I'm going to say ninety percent because of you do you And the You I'm referring to here is Sean Rotherham. Thanks for having me back your stitcher you did a great spam Baram Verma Schon. Rama's Vera is great to be here. We did it keep all of that. Meanwhile meanwhile I've heard your name said by you like one hundred times wants to show. Sometimes I just call myself Sean. One time I was working casual with yourself herself anyway. What's your real first name? And I said Sean. And she said no no no. But what's your real first name and I said ask me again and you're going to start to hurt By feelings way. So you're back. My brother's name is Nimesh shows this version of is there. Sean in Indian no no. My parents were just Into the name my my dad's do MOMS Catholic. My Dad wanted Hindu names. My mom unwanted Christian names Fella. He won the first time and she won the second time. That's the long version. Okay now we know and now we're in fact ready. We needed that little explanation a little breathing room before I could get to the next person on the panel. I also have a new test old Old Testament name you've She and her New Testament and Old Testament name have been on the late late. Show with Stephen Colbert. So funny. Social Hilarious set she is also the Co host of the podcast. Ray A Were you raised by wolves the judgmental title of the PODCAST and Love Wolves. I'm the wolf on the PODCAST. It they actually read into this show. I love her so much you guys. It's Leah Bama. Thank you so much for having me and I would actually love the info on the dance classes. They take them in Queens. I've such a good time We'll we'll talk. Please please deeply embarrassing. I tell you one more embarrassing thing about it. I sometimes feel like this. I sincerely the music is too loud. So I bring earplugs to dance class. Thank you and I dance with earplugs and go fuck yourselves world. I don't care it's more comfortable that way. Not all not all the do it because the what I do has a DJ and the city. You're subways you should keep your plugs. Should be honest like I do feel. I don't like I'M A. I'm I'm on noise. anti-noise pollution advocate. I don't WanNa dump on the city and it subways because I live in DC. We're like our subways. Run from like four PM to six PM but there was a moment with this morning on my way here. Where the at the Metropolitan G. L. Screech so loudly hurt me and I went? I I close my ears and I looked around and no one else else was doing it. I was like Oh. You're all doom that frequency in our. Yeah always have your earphones in here. no I don't do that. I don't believe in that. Well that's in an empty there. Yeah it's just like a nice little cushion those nine people don't talk to you title like those ones that's small to your ears. That are nice and comfortable dancing daily. I'll get USA branded fake the nation. You're please weirdest most anti medical branded swag anyways Here's how not here for Julia. So you can tune out what's happening on the nation and not here okay. Are we ready for number one. So you guys. Trump was doing some impeachment counter programming this week by presenting a totally dead on arrival Middle East peace plan. And it's the it ends all the problems that's done in a he did it. He says quote a prior administrations from President Lyndon in Johnson of tried and bitterly failed. But I was not elected to do small things or shy away from big problems I mean he's right in. That impeachment is a big problem that he can't showing from. Hey the most fun thing about the rollout was that. He didn't even pretend that he actually was creating a plan for both parties. Because the only person that was there during the announcement was bb Netanyahu also under. Maybe the win win thing getting determined. He's in the process. I mean they're going to have another election time. I can't tell awesome so he has like all the other coming up because they wanted this outright before that right we should have more elections a yeah we should disband congress everytime every time feels like we're always having election true. Let's just do more often. I agree with that. Will guys let me tell you some of the main points that were in this Middle East peace. He's plan and I want you to tell me I think so. I of Israel keeps the vast majority of Jerusalem as its sovereign capital Palestinians. Get no right of return. Turn it. Redraws borders mainly between Israel and the West Bank in a dozen allow for Palestine to create a fighting force to defend itself. Alf those are just some of the top line points. What do you say and we should stress? It redraws borders in Israel's favor right all right so the the the plan is largely I in Israel's favor and in the the it basically creates a situation where Palestine is like discontinue tig you and discontinuance archipelagic wait aren't archipelago alcoholic. I already knew what that was pronunciation was bucking need. You guys thank you for letting us feel good God. Yeah they're like it's split and then they're going to have to make a huge tunnel or makes a really doesn't doesn't make any sense but also I don't know if you guys figured this out. They weren't consulted so they weren't consulted but they were also like the US obviously obviously partial to the United States the partial to Israel. So like we don't we don't want to like take on a peace deal being brokered by them in the first place. They're not an impartial. L. Broker also isn't it take like three years that they get to think about it. In which case all the elections have already passed and the fifty billion dollars that trump is promising. The Palestinians Alestinian. They live in these right. He's like you'll make all this money but we don't have to think about it now. I just wanted to ready to know that this is finished. Don't worry about it. It's not happening totally done. I don't think it really worked either even as a counter program. Because everyone's just talking about John Bolton and I don't really know who was like. Oh wait stop everything. The president's the jared Kushner solved the Middle East. We figure it out. It looks like he didn't food. Well I mean so as as anything like it's like I wanted to talk about it but I also I'm like well. There's nothing talk about because it really is dead on arrival in it and it didn't work. You're saying you feel like it didn't work very well as counter programming like it didn't distract people from each meant. We we didn't do a show about it. Did did my friends at the New York Times. You know what I mean like. I went to read the plan to be like. Oh let's see what points are in the plan and then I was like. Oh it's not not really a plan right so then you're like oh I guess we don't even have to really think about it. I can tell you it doesn't work we sit at vox in our newsroom. In DC directly next to the foreign team often freaks the fuck out when anything like this is announced and on Monday night though like holy shit trump's going to drop a Middle East peace plan tomorrow. You're probably GONNA have to change. Whatever you're doing on the show to do this? And I was like noted and I told the team and I was like let's figure it out tomorrow and see what happens. And then they were freaking out on Tuesday but because they could not believe how terrible this plan. It's not a plan it's like you can't hey. Let's the three three of US making negotiation. But you can't come. Yeah Yeah exactly what it is it may. It reminds me. I've mentioned before or that. I was at a United Nations convening in Pretoria South Africa where I was invited to speak. It's not a big deal and anyways but as I was in also did some stand up in Cape Town as one does anyways and but it was what was interesting about it. was that so we arrive. The whole thing was about the Israeli Palestinian conflict and they basically invited a bunch of like outside the box thinkers to figure it out. I was one of them. Thank you I would think program. Thank you great idea. You know what I also like to be considered on the inside of the box programs as well all ars. Thank you all the boxes But what happened. Was We arrive there. And everyone's excited in there's There's like these a bunch of his really outside outside the box thinker. There's a bunch of American Bob from a French couple of French and Italian people like people from around the country were invited to do this thing. And the the Palestinian diplomats there there was like some. UN official UN people there and then the and there were supposed to be Israeli diplomats. There who at the last minute were like one of them was like. Oh but look. My mom decided to come visit excuses. You give rely like cancelling on Brunch and in these in these things really diplomats never showed and I think part of it was. They were worried that all of our solutions. We're GONNA be like fair or in all of your finding solutions literally. We're just US talking solutions. Fuck that was that was upsetting. I mean you know and and also just that like you know that they said they were gonNA come and then this taken some weeks to plan and all of that and then didn't I mean it. It's that sucked so my mom's plan their trips like years in advance dropped in. Ah So so anyways. That's my experience with this but But I think I think you're right. It has failed. I wonder what you know. What the what the feedback has been like if it's supposed to help? BB's reelection bid in March let your plan land was right like there was like literally some Headline that was like a plan meant to help to elections potentially trump to write right because it plays plays to like no one's still stuck in handshake between Israeli and Palestinian year. A dog whistle. I feel like there's been like he. He signed the US. MCA this week and made that official. I got some push notification about like him further you know dismantling handling our environmental protections to benefit farmers this week. I think he's like okay so I'm losing like a lot of people who can I just like racism signs to right now and make. I'm sure they're good but this one in particular they say wouldn't even happen for years so it's just sort of like a hey save the date. Email the wedding date essentially is what it is. Geez bout of oral gonorrhea honoree even really thing at the end of the day all right. Well let's move onto the other thing that it that was the program. I'm to the counter program with topic number one point five. ooh Half a bill. It may be the impeachment. You guys. the galleys were John. Bolton's upcoming book are making the rounds at the NFC and then they're getting league to the New York Times and apparently he basically confirmed the entire impeachment impeachment and removal is basically what John Bolton did known liberal kidding progressive liberal the map progressive wise. So okay so this came out Wild Donny's lawyers were making their case and they kind of ignored did it on the last day. They did a little like hey. This book doesn't matter or whatever like some weak argument John Bolton is it like do you as one John Bolton to testify testify and he's not like a friend of the left I mean it's not a model the volatile witness. So what where. Where do you stand on this kind of witness? I mean it's in to to think that in Twenty Twenty Democrats would be calling John Bolton to testify I against build a time machine and go back to twenty ten intel. Someone that they would shit. It's an amazing. I would love to see this happen. We like a diuretic program. Do you need shit. Take time issue. I mean the timing of it is actually incredible. Not Incredible in like the way we use the the word but truly hard to believe and I think you know as any trial should have witnesses. They should call John Bolton and he was. He seems like he'd make a great witness witness. I would love to see it happen. I would love to see it happen the idea that we were somehow moving into this place where like people are like. Hey we don't want facts. I don't want other people coming in with more. I want the whole story. Bring him in. Also I feel like what the Republicans are saying is. Hey we don't WANNA call 'cause we call him there we're going to have to call other people and then we don't want all this more information to look into because it's really going to bog us down. We have other stuff to work on. That's what I feel like they're saying then you're like Ryan. No no no no. Oh this is your job either way. Democracy loses here. I feel like this trial is a shit show. It's a shit show. It's I mean it's it's I think one thing is that like it that makes it Nada. Shit show is that it's happening at all because what could easily happen was Democrats could have been like. Look this high crime or misdemeanor happened but like it's an election year. Let's not bother with Ethics and and duty to the country and and our duty to the constitution. Let's not bother with those and the fact that is happening is a sign that people are still trying to uphold something that is an ethical duty to the constitution. Sound like a proper optimus over there and again no I do I. This is such an obvious argument that the president can basically do whatever he wants right into into his own re-election if he believed reelection helps the and elections because that's fun and arguments win an election it out like a case. What you said was not clear? Okay what I'm trying to say is what's amazing ask Alan Dershowitz known Associated Jeffrey Epstein and defender of OJ Simpson in his defense of the president said that Donald Trump can do whatever he wants towards his reelection. If he believes it's in the interest of the United States and it's hard to be optimistic when you hear arguments arguments like that being a Senate trial that was really remarkable. I would actually warmed my heart about that was that I've never thought to ever think that way. And so it was like mind opening to court. I was like mind expanding that that could ever be uttered out loud are thought in any way out like that means he could not only could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue but he can the interest of the country who biden on fifth avenue because he he wants to get reelected because save. American election is in the public good. Yeah it's funny because I think Adam ships response to that was that it was quote very odd. I just voted him and I think I think that's what he said. I just put quotes around but I don't actually know that he said that but I think he said it very odd and donahue so funny. 'cause I was just like AAC very odd is just like such a mild way of saying like are you fucking out of your your my comment where you almost need reaction time. We'd be like we we bring that or is that a setting court. I was walking out of the office yesterday. And some some Nice lady was talking to her friend on the phone in downtown Manhattan about this this very thing. He did save area. She said she'd be Hashed Fucker. Say he can do whatever he wants. As long as it's in the interest of reelection action and I look back at her. I smile because I was just so happy to be back in New York. Excrete fucking looking. I mean that's a beautiful moment. We should all start using that as an argument in our everyday life. I'm allowed to do whatever I want. If it's in the interest dressed of our of our nation or just like in whatever yourself whatever I need to get whatever I stand up comedy like I'm allowed after just like walk up on the stage of your set because better for everyone every day in every criminal ever not anything against your dad not a criminal starting like a wrap up our little impeachment discussion. You guys Tomorrow we'RE GONNA know if they're going to have witnesses so we'll see so by the time he listens podcast. Today's Thursday tomorrow at some point tomorrow. Apparently this this issue will be decided to. We'll see if you know. Susan Qasem Mitt Romney and all the people that we expect might have beating hearts. Actually do I'm coming for you. Susan Collins in Maine. Let me tell you right now. You'd better start voting correctly turning. I'm I'm coming for you. Let me make a home state in the interest of proper legal voting. I don't mean that any rally semaine voters. Yeah Yeah we do not promote. I'm supporting surrogate. Forget anyone saying not L. there. That was a much easier. Sound like just me and we're watching devoted. So are you a minor. I am manner. What is it in the mainers society that person? Yes I tell you what happens. The storm is that Republicans made is I would say it's very divided place. There's the rurals I'm the rurals coastal More money and so what happened. You know a lot of people in Maine are independent. Then if previously voted Democrat so what happened is the Republican consenting all this money to third party candidates which is like the plague and all these people got in June so now we have leveled voting plague. That was like a nice little. Yeah that's my dad. Calls Him and I honestly forgot it was actually my dad's don't WanNa take any joe shots. Two dads all around so I think that voting is going to change over the next. Okay sorry was that too much of a What do you call it? Like a non sequitur now is yeah. You know what this isn't today explained we. Don't fuck it after. Stay there okay. So my question is These couple days of questioning How do you feel they've got an opponent on a moment that I thought was the most hilarious one of This one one of the senators got a question like the house manager. Got a question from a Democrat that was like do you guys want to rebut any of the arguments that we're made in the opening statement of the other side doing so. That's all these questions have been right. There just been like ridiculous softballs constantly and so they kind of just make me laugh but I do think it's a nice fun opportunity. Just like clarify get into some of those facts and and rebuts so I mean if anyone's paying attention to the impeachment which a lot of people are not. I feel like it's like a nice summary. Yeah I'm kind of. I'm sort of amazed amazed at how the tenor of the whole thing. Sort of sorry. The tone of the whole thing changed from the house to the Senate like in the house. It was rowdy rowdy. People were making all sorts of procedural maneuvers to interrupt bypass and Nadler was getting dumped on by everyone and then moved over the Senate. The news like you know John Roberts like now remember this is the Senate and it Kinda worked like. There's just such a difference these. They're all the same kinds of people like who work in the same team building but on one side they're just like punching each other and on the other side the like well good consume what is it they have British accents. What's really brutal as in the question as is like there's like a piece of paper and I'm listening to us on radio I don't actually haven't seen what it looks like but it's like it sounds like a piece of paper like Dianne? Feinstein hands a piece of paper to somebody who then runs it over to the justice that it just feels so ridiculous and then I'm always like is he going to be able to re Dianne Feinstein. Handwriting stressed out about that or whatever. Ah Listening on the radio and there's like these long minutes of just some guy walking up to a podium anyways as weird and quiet yeah and like Yeah it's it's a lot less fun. It's a less dynamic environment but you know some things. Maybe they should dance routines. Yeah like a jury loud music over the paper time when they have paper time to get up and do a little. This is a missed opportunity. Hey guys pay per time to answer. Something in me feels kind of into the idea that like they don't dress it up here it is. This is your government in action. I mean I heard that there's like this request for more cameras in the Senate was like no more cameras. This is how we do you get the one shot and it sucks deal with it you know right. I WANNA say like about about the idea that it shouldn't be boring or that. It is boring the ratings are low. I mean if someone else talks about the ratings of this impeachment being low I will fucking punch a few stuffed animals in personal anger in the privacy of my own home and no one will know about it because they republican talking point it is you can talk to you. I put like guys democracies boring. You know what I mean if you've ever been to a community meeting which you should all be going to. They're not fucking rangers. You know what I mean like the quiet and boring practice of keeping communities thriving and potholes filled is not exciting exciting in that way and the best example of this big nor should an impeachment. Bee House what happened. Yeah three years. I've been exciting. Hey Dave it's been joying fuck this conversation about ratings and popularity even though I said nobody's watching it really. It's not about that. It's not about that the the thing that Don democracy happens all day long and we're not watching so it doesn't matter if you're watching or not anyway I just want to throw in one thing. I said two minutes ago they'd still US obsessing in my head. I do think so Susan Collins went away that mainers didn't expect oh by recently or the road. Republican was just like a cabin off and then and it was like Yeah it's slowly from Kevin over. You're like what happened. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah okay. What a throw that in there? Thank you take that and put it elsewhere the nation Jason Forever. Because it's what we WANNA make sure happens. Is that like Leah's you you know paranoia. That's your more interesting which is also so we're getting again. It's a nagging snow. A commitment should giving as much information as I possibly have. Okay never leave any information on the table on vacation. uh-huh guys that's about all the time we speak. You've been uh-huh you guys we're GonNa take a quick break in. Our sponsors sponsor is a key week. Who got we got? I know. We've we've never gotten quipped though the hilarious thing is that the The Creator was my roommate at one point story for another time so many Ahmad cloth ads after having been in here once when you read a monoglot really. That's the sponsors are. All we know is worth throwing a a break and when we come back. We're going to talk about things. The Daily News podcast isn't increasingly crowded field but the niece Janjua has finally been validated with the arrival of. Its very own satirical. Take Down the topical is written by the very same writers at America's Carr's fighters news source the onion and a very fatal murder a send up of the true crime genre popular among podcast listeners and lovers of horrific violence everywhere aware at less than ten minutes a day. There's no reasonable excuse for not listening to the topical from the successful cloning of God by Vatican scientists to the release of starbucks new seven dollar wakeup slap. The topical Will Cover News Large and small premiering January twenty ninth. You can find the topical and Apple Podcast spotify. Stitcher your pod. Now now pod pod later post pod POD POD or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hi everybody. Chris gathered here beautiful stories as from anonymous people. It's about to hit. It's two hundred episode. I'm so psyched. I get to do this show. I talk to strangers on the phone for an hour. It connects humanity to each other one our at time. It promotes empathy. It goes in so many different directions like sometimes they're really funny. We want to talk to these rose in Detroit and two of them had murdered. Dad's doesn't sound. I'm funny funniest episode. Ever we've talked to someone who's about to turn themselves into federal authorities a thirty nine year old. Grandma we've played D. and D. on the show I've learned a lot a lot about the world and people restored my faith in humanity. You haven't listened yet. Subscribe on your favorite podcast APP. Beautiful stories from anonymous people. I hope you check it Out Things was up. Everybody on Jackie's Neil Neil. I'm Edgar Mopus here and you are listening to culture. King is the new podcastone talking about pop culture with some of our favorite people in the Biz. People like John Gabor's open. Mike Eagle Lacy Moseley Carl Tar and many more four yellow if you want to listen to culture king guests when you can do it every week. Monday goldens is available on premium apple podcasts. Wherever you go your broadcast professional ooh and we are back? We're ready for topic number two. Okay we're just doing a quickie a little baby tiny election check in Because the Iowa caucuses are on Monday guys Iowa complete. Oh you know what I mean. What are you getting jokes or Melas? Dad took his jokes. My Dad's very funny. Very funny as is very funny. And he's very politically charged charged about Susan Collins. Oh my God odd name for your heard that I can say on the radio. Oh the report either way I was just trying to think what is the what is the worst thing that could have. I'm not personally referring to her in that fashion episode episode of fake the nation. Now have a language. Yes yeah do. They always have a language advisory. Yeah Okay we have. We have to my show take fucking candidate to be a comedian. If she was also just throwing ideas out I I should call her. I'm not saying it again. Let's let me write it down. Visuals look really good. podcasts cast about the election I a calling why are also you. Why are you having primaries on a Monday? Is My big question great question. Everything Happens on Tuesdays first of all which is unreasonable day for it to happen. But now that we've picked this unreasonable day nationally. Why is I would doing it on a fucking a Monday? Okay I got to say I got it through his other. I think Nevada don't quote me but maybe is on a Saturday Is that people. People are available to the vote on a Saturday now case it's better for your points. Journalists and fucking abrupt brunch places restaurants. They call them out on a weekday. Just don't ruin my Friday Monday Cardi. It's you're dealing with all this stuff from the I see what you're saying. I Owens dealing with stuff on a Monday. Everybody has to go on dealing with for the past. I mean they've been like talking to candidates for the past like six eight nine twelve months after the only state to have. You heard complain about this last week. The only states in the union and it gets actually meet the candidates. Yeah okay so. My parents drove over to New Hampshire to meet him. Yeah who they like. They're they've met Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren and they like like them both very much so like the lady. They loved The New York Times of mail so they are the only people that came up into the corner interesting. ooh The Corner Game Quarter also club. Hr Get an interesting New Hampshire endorsement. She did who was the New Hampshire. I'm sure like some sort of a puppy. A over there in New Hampshire missed this. We have a lot of a puppy mills over their New Hampshire. I don't remember what I want. What it was but she did? Yeah so okay so Elizabeth Warren also by the way got the Des Moines Register. Endorsement was I thought was very saw. The video wow so sure your journalists. You're not allowed to say right interesting. Right I mean certain things about the president on your show just now like I think I think not. I'm threatening the the line I think towing towing the line reading. I'm throwing the needle. Take needle towing the line Mala propping on your show here I think you know. Wouldn't it be nice to see lady president already come on. I think I'm allowed to say that. Okay the center left and our show you know isn't we're not NPR right times we have fun we make fun. Yeah we you've got. You've he's got really fantastic headlines thank you thank you very much. We talk about stuff and I say my opinion. I haven't like said anything about who I think should win this thing or anything like that on the show. So it'd be weird for me to say it now but I I really do think it's crazy that we haven't had a female president right and you know what I mean. What do you think we should journalists? Be Able to talk about what they think or should should. They pretend that they don't have feelings. I mean people are honestly talking about whether or not they should vote and I think that's just ridiculous. You know what I was talking. Everyone should everybody just about everybody in the voting turnout in this country is a nemec at the same time. It's anemic the people who care so much that they dedicate their lives to reporting are saying well. I shouldn't vote because then I would have feelings and like no dude. You have feelings. I was talking to Olivia. Not The a reporter for the New York magazine. My colleague now. Oh now your your colleague. And she's fantastic. She was the guest way. We don't tell me this last weekend's episode which you should absolutely listen to. She was a great guess also listened to it was great and an Livia. I asked her about from Iowa or something yeah we were in Des Moines. It was fantastic. Oh my God the people doing super represented And I was asking her like a who her kid I was like you can and tell me. And she's like honestly I'm not voting. Don't vote an on elections that I cover and I was like wow cholera buster. No it's just like really she's like yeah right now I mean I might you know maybe some years from now I'll I'll regret this decision but right now. I'm not voting in an eraser I I I. I'm I really need to hear the argument did you did you explore just was. I just felt like she could help. Turn maintain an her ability to cover it. Well being impartial me more impartial as someone who could cover it and just like you know and have like just a I guess an even-handed and people know even more about stuff. They should definitely vote right right. I'm I'm happy to show like. I'm not like a registered Democrat or a registered Republican to the surprise of no one but like I don't see how you making a decision on November second. Means that you are. Somehow you know covering the election in a partial way or something you know Julia. Do you think. Journalists should not have an opinion. You know I I realized I had this real problem where I can see everybody's point of view exhausting and I could see that I'm not that way that some would be. It somehow makes her feel like she can remain impartial. And that and that's so important reporting. We've I feel like we lost a lot of it where people they'll just come in with their put their opinion on it but I don't see ideally one could remain impartial and they're reporting and then still compartmentalize their own opinion and vote. Oh because I would hope that everybody wanted to participate in the voting process. But I just want to return to my point that she will not be covering the twenty twenty election when she votes votes will be over right into that polling station and make a call not. I'm based on dates on her feelings. as saying is it from her point of view. I WANNA say all. Come to therapy. When uh-huh she can't him a magic show magic show? Ah I had my first. Therapist was a male anyways it turned into like I was trying to make him laugh too much and it was like very not not. I don't WanNa hear no problem another day. I you know I would hope everybody votes. Yeah okay so here's what I think for some water folks at home I'm not paying and you know but I don't want to say that a woman who's decided something for herself as wrong. Do you know what I know. I unders- I could totally see your point. I personally. Here's what I miss. I miss in American society in which journalists were like. We're like had halos over their heads. You know and everybody listened to them and this is maybe just. Maybe it wasn't even like this but I kind of feel like I remember as a kid this like world where Walter cronkite or whatever. I mean it's before my time like but they were all white men right. I know I get it was it was a a way never lasted pictures. She has no idea google but no I just I I think. Part of what's become a little toxic now is people's bulls inability to determine what's news and what's opinion and P and n networks have used that inability to distinguish to their advantage antigen so places like Fox or like. No no no. This is not news as opinion but it looks like news feels like news and so I think it's is create. It's actually lead to more polarization so I think. Journalists sharing their opinions has has has increased the net polarization. I Gave that I concur as well and I think this is a broader problem with media literacy that we have in this country because we're not taught in school how to read the news and the news is so important to everything we do in our lives. And if you go to the New York Times Dot Com whereas when you're the area you're talking about is when you would get a newspaper that had the news section and the opinion section and you'd go on TV and you get the news from Walter cronkite. And maybe he'd go and now for some commentary you are like opinion person right and like if you go to the Times now. The news is up there and opinions up there and like it says opinion but like people don't even go to home pages ages anymore so they're just seeing something that's on shares on facebook. That could be opinion. That like hardly says opinion anywhere and it says New York Times on it nice and big right and then all of a suddenly people saying Oh New York Times is full of shit right and on Fox. We don't like we put opinion into articles. So if you're not savvy enough to know that you're fucked right like it's bad all over and people on the Internet. Everything's just on the timeline. Everything's just given equal places given equal placement is what the issue issue is. Yeah and it's and people don't know what's what and so I think we need to be more educated about what leading and how did it and what it is and my mom. Text me a story that hasn't been verified yet. Mike Chits like check it out like you gotTa Google that story and see if like some like the Washington Post The New York Times the La Times has written about yet or the BBC. Whatever it is and like she doesn't know that I saw this thing on twitter next to that loving on twitter right I also feel in? This is a little bit separate but in this topic that last election cycle we saw so many opinions coming in from people that it ended up. I feel like really affecting the final vote so I personally have stayed away from saying anything negative about any of the candidates because before the got so blown up than we were so oh divided by the final vote. How do you feel we are right now? Among among the Democrats like do you feel divided do you. What do you feel I do? You feel like it's still happening. Which is why I've really gone out of my way to not say anything? Negative about any vote for any candidate. I feel like the rates have a lot uncommon. I and I do feel like people like this person or nobody or this person in your like. Can we find a way to talk about our disagreements. That doesn't so break us up as a party because I think we have the same goal at the next election. Yeah I feel like it's interesting. I mean we're because these are the I would say say. This is the second election of twitter rage candidates yes And it's and it so it is. It's really exhausting. You know I I was was saying I was talking about an event I did for Elizabeth Warren and like you know all post something listeners. Now I'm slow debate over e dubs but I I'll post some things so gentle like oh it was it was great or whatever and it seems to invite people to be like like Well Bernie did it first or whatever and I'm just like no I'm not. I'm not taking anything away from other candidates by supporting a candidate. Also also I would and I've said it before gleefully vote for any of those candidates including Tom Steyer Bernie said what Bernie said all happily vote for anyone on this stage. I hope it's me but although for any day no and that's I feel like we all there needs to be some sort of like a chant that everybody on on the Internet does whatever just a calm themselves down like this me saying something positive about Amy Klobuchar. Char you're not a negative about someone else or whatever you really are gentillon. You're positively. You're you're trying to be gentle people. Come in you're like I have just done the most those non divisive thing ever. It's and I think it's a sweet gotten to the we can't help it. We've gotten to the point of twitter rage. Candidacy candidacy is that. It's like which people can't help themselves the morning. After the last debate I woke up and this was the debate. Where for the First Time Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders had tension between them right and you know? She walked over to him after the debate. And apparently you call me alive and one of the top trending topics on twitter. Dot Com was never warren. And I was just like are these the Bernie rose doing this and and also really where we are in twenty twenty guys right. Now you're saying never worn these. Two people are as far as we can tell actually friends with each other and their policies are so fucking similar if the division between two people that similar is that bad on twitter. Who the problem isn't like the two people? It is twitter so I did read somewhere by the way for the feelings. Were all having right now about these. Divisions is that Russian controls are working like and they are so continuing to sow discord like the end the end. So do we think that that Hashtag could have been bought or something would would have been. I have heard you know. There's there's a out of the University of Clemson. I can't remember the name of the you know the professor but there's just An institute at Clemson that basically studies the stuff and follows and figures out what's what and they had and they basically said that the Russians are like actively working on this campaign on the primaries and their candidate is Bernie So but there can't is burning but they're generally missed a sow. Oh discord every which way you know. We remind people that the true enemy is and always has been Russia play rocky for on loop in a good. We had during the Cold War when it was clear that the wizards rocky four wins. Best picture instead of joker. Wouldn't that be great for us. We'll just bring EVAC rocky for wealthy. Andy says we can overcome so on this. Do you could do it. So we're close up this segment which we were supposed to talk about the elections My favorite part of that Verdy Warren moment was STYRO- you're saying oh I saw like I like running in August I i. I've always loved his tie his tie for a billionaire. He seems to have one time. He probably has multiple versions versions of the same pants. It's nice whatever's on the other side of that queen parents. It's really good to get you fired from all right so I just want to say in closing. Ah Let's say one person wins in Iowa. Everybody votes let's say let's say there's a clear winner in Iowa. Does that mean in anything is it or is it just like then they keep going keep going. Nobody's feels like this is going to be a white a person. Yeah that's a good one dot com. You know what I just think in uh-huh oh this is what I want to say to news people right now John She's pointing at me. I fucking hate it when you take a poll and the result is like not hugely. I think right now polls are all over the place I mean. It looks like anyone could win Iowa. But we're talking but they they take holes like it's a big news event and then they re frame the entire discourse around an election because of a poll. I agree with you on that. If you to listen to my program mm today explained from Vox and formally stitcher in which we very very seldom talk about holes and always give context. Yeah no I will but I want you to defend all all of your colleagues in all of all of journalism. How much time do we all right? I know that for the record you guys meet and always also we had. We had corey be on the show And he talked about how these polls in Iowa are basically he thinks played a huge. You draw in defeating him. In addition to the rules like Iowa going I but You know they. They aren't people if you make your decisions based on WHO's polling. We're kind of eft because it's just like the self fulfilling prophecy right like it's polling an Iowa thus I'll vote for the winner because I want to beat trump like no vote for at at this point. The whole point of this process right here is like who do we want. Yeah so pick who you want. Vote from the heart and with some information and we score. Were this part. Can we get some strings to come in this double. Check your okay. Also Rosero Dawson as you first lady We really blew. It would have been the hottest No we're not or who I would love to be ready. I'm saying I'm ready. But Kennedy's hot. The Kennedys were another version of that hot level. I was just reading about in light of the side. Kobe Bryant News JFK Juniors untimely passing and looking at lots of photos of him. As I do because I can't help but Google this man is just silly looking. I mean it was is he was beautiful editor of magazine publisher. They worked at magazines. Folks I know he had a face that was fit for just and staring into go. No I think we should move the statement into beautiful people another share bad boys the new bad boys which is fantastic Martin Lawrence. I cried twice. Yeah and I love his belly. Laugh you cry a lot though. No Oh I have a crime problem it would be good if I could get more out game. Okay I'm going to go see bathrooms for the voice. Though it's February three bad boys for life is a confusing title for bad boys or did you see the spelling of it. It makes sense but but it's really terrific. I said there's two crying hot little the preview track because we're talking about the election the newest and I think his final James Bond that man he gets better looking as he ages you every time you see in her face. I want to say he must have hair plugs. Notice men's hair so much time looking a lot of them do. CBS Hot if he didn't have the plug for me is all in the legs arms legs. Tom Brady below Tom Brady so goodling guy couldn't even ball. He should ball for all the people who are balding and be a role model studies. Now I gotta I gotTa plug it up. Does a great plugs. No there they make them so good now they don't even notice you have I. Yeah that was okay. But he's not in bad boys for life he's in the hallways. We went in fourteen directions. Again it's really good. I'm sold all right I. I'm sure that we got a lot out of everything we just talked about. That was technically about the elections. Let us move on. I just I'm leaving it to those two in the control room to figure out what what to do with that segment would be great if your sponsor out everybody in the everybody in the movies dating age appropriate women which I've no never seen Michael Bay. What just happened or these age appropriate women weird? No I this. This is like my eyes worked so well before this looks perfect. Let us move on really selling topic number three. Okay so let's freak each other out by talking about the corona virus So far it's act one of the SODERBERGH movie contagion. That's where we're at. We're we're in. Act One Paul tro contract something from a kitchen in Hong Kong and then goes back to Minnesota candle out of her Vagina and then the candle can take so you guys saw contagion though. Yes spoiling died. Sorry well she does so early. The Drew Barrymore precipitating events. Also if you haven't seen contagion yet it's been year statute of limitations. You can't be responsible. Good movie uvi right. I saw coughing and I was like I remember feeling like not enough people. Watch it at the time. So I'm really shocked. Actually that we're in a room room full of people that have watched it. I try to see all apocalyptic goods So let's talk about what humans have done to make pandemics like this a real possibility the You know and not just like one of Paul trona movie plot point. The list is long Yeah let's talk haven't we done. I mean the interesting thing is. Let's just start with why the contagion thing is so weird to me is that it happened in a in a kitchen and Hong Kong and the movie and in this case they're tracking back to a market market in Wuhan. That was maybe getting bats From a cave where corona virus had already been detected some years earlier thinking contagion happens in a kitchen but at the end they show you like the whole thing. It's so powerful. Like how the virus got to Gwyneth paltrow and it starts with a bat taking shit in like someplace near a pig and then she eats the pig everybody Ships the question is. Why do the Batswana kill us? Well the question is like no. We've you just kind of out of our way to set up a perfect environment for a viral. Ask Storm Multiple questions here. Sorry but you're only eh EH storm. As if I didn't give someone's joke of what Susan Collins Alternate name is okay. I Shan't repeat because I don't feel that way about her. Actually feel congenial optimus optimistic missile. You're saying she might hate remedy people. I don't hate her. Well you know what I mean I I just feel bad during hate around in my body but let's talk about virus is a contagion. It's bad boys for life so so I think one of the things that we're doing as humans is there's a perilous trade in wildlife for food And and it's interesting because it's it's more phenomenon in China and Africa where Bush meat and some of these like other types of exotic meats or whatever end up making it to these kind of like wet markets where there's a lot out of like slaughtering and blood running around That W- where do you kind of late I mean that's been going on for you. Know Millennia Right. We're we're also clear cutting and when it's worse now where we're clear cutting forests and so animals Are being moved pushed out where a much bigger population. We're having lots of sex. We have these people fly everywhere. You don't be one second one way and then there's somewhere else that wasn't on the list. We've also especially in North America amped up. How much people take antibiotics? You know what my right. So people become their immune system capable fighting things so you have these weakened we can immune systems more people. Travelling less animals are losing their homes. We have so much crossing with like the people coming in and dropping. I mean it's really. They think it was. It's like there was a bat on top of like another animal. And then that's how it all you know these places where things run together and then on top of that you've got and the politics of this right. I mean China discovered this in two thousand nineteen like late December and as recently as last week the. who was like waffling on whether to declare this a public health emergency. It sure looks like a public health emergency but it's a political decision and and you know they're talking to the Chinese government about what that means for China and the they shut down the city of like fifty million people and all this stuff. This is all these political decisions. Layered on top of all of these yet human caused elements that you just mentioned. And it's just a cluster. Fuck and I don't remember what happened. Plus I don't know. Thank you for correcting. I don't remember what happened during SARS but but but China was also had a a poor reaction there that I think probably stretched out longer And it's weird to me that they even had a moment of hesitation this situation right like if they shut down the city the and restricted travel immediately in December. Then maybe we wouldn't have been looking at a at a at a pandemic way. That never happens. In any apocalyptic elliptic movie. They'd never shut down in time. I mean and I guess I I don't know if it's official. That China was like intentionally slow playing this yet. But but I mean I understand when you're trying to shut down the city of tens of millions of people. It's a big decision that needs to be made carefully known was certainly sounding the alarm bells back in December about this thing and they knew what it was like the name of it has like twenty nineteen in it. Because they're like that's when we discover this thing. Yeah yeah scientific name. The the thing is is that scientists had been warning about exactly this virus when they discovered it years ago because it is related to the SARS virus so then they started looking at all of the Bat poop. Whatever an an an had been meticulously chronicling Bat poop and whatnot not and found it so So they've been sounding the alarms for there is SARS was not the last time. We're going to see something like SARS you know this. This is not going to be the last time I feel like we've created this hot pot with all of these different factors overpopulate overpopulation. All the majors grab torn up. You know what I mean and then now we're like oh it's like this is going to keep happening until we deal with the facts of the matter. We're not gonNA like these dealing with them. Everyone knows house again. Man Air travel's Bat. Oh Yeah I work remotely in Texas every week and it's like you you live in DC from DC to Texas Boston every week. Like that's just a person I know on my block and everyone. I don't like so many people I know. Do this kind of thing and no one wants to stop eating meat although we keep talking about it but it's not happening No population and going anywhere. We're really not dealing with any of these. Everyone's moving to cities like it's all bad. It's going to get worse. I can get those masks everybody every bit. Oh by the way I went on Amazon last night just to check it out the mask because they're all up in my subway and on Amazon last night. All of the masks sold-out amazing. It's going to get I. I Bet I bet will get to the point where there are sold away. Umbrellas sold on the side. One starts. We've got a new virus. There was my desk Matt. The by two cents type of mask matters like it has to be has to have the thing on it. Yeah that's the thing. Yeah what is that. It's got a little looks like a little Bain mask where you have to. It's going to be but yes you have to turn and you clear a filter income with filters regular. Yeah Pimple on the New York City yes they are. The little shit masks that you can easily get are good for you not giving it to other other for you. This is useful so get them the more serious mask if you want. How did we come here today? No I came here by subway. More people die from the flu. The regular flu season show know what I mean. People Are Getting Eh. But it's like yeah or choice but are you anti vaccine. I'm not anti vaccine. I don't put flu flu shots in the same thing as smallpox fair. But there's things that we could actually worry about that are significantly larger problems plums. Not that we shouldn't be worrying about that too. Maybe worry about everything is also still a thing and it's actually. The numbers wise in the United States is significantly bigger. I think you brought up a really good point about about Immune Systems and I do think there's something about that you know like I went to college. I remember getting sick a couple of times and they immediately put me on Antibiotics and And then for years ears I I think I got sick in ways that I shouldn't have and and my dad was like yeah. You shouldn't be taking. He's a doctor. Shouldn't be taking so many the antibiotics when it's basic when you basically have a cold you know what why did you. What did you do then I was like? I don't know it's just the nurse at the school so so we are doing. I mean people take antibiotics for noth- everything every everything. Yeah I mean pack the ill people just have them sitting sitting around. Anything goes wrong. They don't do that. Also if you're going to spend longtime in Ohio if something God forbid happens to you have to spend a long time in a hospital. You're I'M GONNA go through all of the things that are you know what I mean. You don't WanNa you WANNA set yourself up for. What if I need? Antibiotics is you feel like the The news the reporting on this is is like whipping up. Fear or you think we should be. We should be a little scared. I spend spend more scared than I would normally be about this thing because I have a baby so I don't want to hurt again wearing no. I'm not wearing being a mask. I mean New York doesn't have confirmed death Sir anything you know what I mean like. It's made landfall several cases this is now right it had it is in the United States. I don't know I'm not I should wear a mask I'm flying to La. I agree like I traveled able to get here. You know this week and a friend of mine told me that one of his colleagues at work in New York is wearing a mask and is the head of HR. And I was like Whoa like. Should we all be wearing masks or is she being masters for the regular flu. I don't want people I feel like yesterday. Somebody coughed into my mouth and I was like like you know when you're moving and someone so many people are unaware of where they're in your like how you're not aware of where you're coughing right now. You're there's still much more likely to die like crossing the street in New York City. You are from Corona virus at this point like exponentially so my take is like no but I mean you're you're with no I mean I I don't know I don't know and they're not really saying anything officially at like schools. I asked a couple of parents who had school age children and their nothing is really but anyway I guess my my my larger point here is really about. Uh well what what governments are doing. And what we're doing and I think and you know they've there's an entire crews of seven thousand people that are currently quarantine on the coast of like Italy because it was a couple who maybe had a fever. and that's working crazy. You know what I mean so were there so many any more of these travel situations with cruises and tours and whatever but just travel is such a big part of why this thing would spread and were no more than you know twenty four two hours away from every part of the planet so we can always go somewhere and take our fucking viruses with us so it is you know and the answer is do less of everything everything we're doing and that's the answer for environmental damage that we're reaching an in. These things are going hand in hand. You know But of course tell that to someone who's really wanted to see you know Venice or the bats of Wuhan Cave Where people who wanted the Paris climate accord to be thing out right like as the these these factors were talking about are the same factors we talk about when we talk about climate change and the most progressive climate accord? We ever had just got ripped apart. Yeah what is what is it. S S storm cluster F stove cluster. Or the SEBNEM. I remember now Yeah so I guess I guess in closing thing. We stayed on on point on that one. I still don't you guys row reader worried. No you're not worried. I bike to work every day and I could get hit by a car at any moment. Ok always worried. I'm not going to be any more word out more like okay. Taking the fact that this is the thing that we're going to keep seeing more of because of the actions that we're taking as a as well right now is the only thing I think about. Yeah I very much agree with that and I always in my mind been like. Oh this is the thing that at one point is going to be eh not this one in particular at one point we've set the stage. This is when contagion happen. I guess okay you Damon taken by Alex. I'm ready you scared us. Parts of containment aren't the virus but the way people react when they panic when Matt Damon goes to the Grocery store with his daughter daughter and people start getting violent and hostile and in those situations I think about like. I'm not like that big a dude. I don't have weapons like I'm glad I don't have kids because I don't I know how I would protect him. All right go for the neck and you know run and maybe like knives you know. You're welcome to come to main with me. Thank thank you. There's a great line in the Irishman that gave me hope We're we're Pacino. Playing Hoffa says like What does he say Shit? He's like whenever he's got a gun. I punched him. If you see a knife you better run and that made me feel like hopeful. Like oh like I have knives I could stab fool. Who wants to kill me? That's the hopeful note. But I guess we're GONNA end stab. Anyone took my question for the people face the nation which is a question. That that moral you Sean Sean you through a bunch of your friends under the bus. Everybody talks about changing their behaviors but nobody does people think the nation have. You changed any of your behaviors or do you plan on changing any of your behaviors so curious especially air travel back when someone asks for like. Oh Hey you wanna come to my bachelor party for like one like for like ten years. Now I've been like no not for a weekend not GONNA fly to L. A.. For two days yeah like making those hard choices and then your friends mad at you for a week and then fine like. There's a lot of questions. Can you get there by train. That's already going no like. Maybe don't do it. I mean that's not good either but like that's like the justification like people like Oh when you flying in from DC motherfucking not flying to train because they have training point. I have a friend who takes flights between New York and DC. Not all the time because points and I'm just like that points you're not gonna be able to use those when bugging the half. The country's under chase likes it more. Would I take a play but I guess the other basically no. It's a good point. It's exactly yeah like sometimes when someone served me some I'll eat but like I try very very I wanNA say about me. What the hard? The hard thing about mead is that it's the reason why humans evolved into having the particular sized brains that we do so like we have thrived because of the protein offered by meat. And I totally get that scientifically But we're hearing my I think we're here now. And we have the technology to continue to thrive probably without impossible so think you can eat just eighty percent less meat and still eat a little awesome tiny bit. That's what I'm saying I'm trying to do I'm trying to eat. You know I'm trying to gradually reduce my intake all together and then but then still have a steak every now and again you know what I mean. I don't buy at the grocery store but like if I go out on the weekend and it's like Oh that looks like a nice dish or some. It looks like it could kill myself by its practice but another thing is I think just like when I say stuff like this sometimes amongst friends like the room will get quiet and it's like oh here's like a little soapbox from Sean about like his great decisions that he's making and I think that's a thing we need to get over saying this because I'm judging urging you I'm saying this because I'm worried about Cordova about climate change and Greta. Wanting to see a virus would clear the decks and then we would be good like the Thanos snapping his fingers. I want to know that I meant that. Obviously not really not really you guys tell me what you're doing to be a part of the solution. Hey you guys that's the end of the show. How do you feel? It didn't end on a terribly optimistic. But yes you WANNA turn around now. We should all go see bad. Boys do cry you laugh. Relationships are age appropriate. They have all those feelings again. Yeah Lauren it is it okay. That's that's a great way to end the show you guys. I want people to fake the nation to be able to follow you and all this stuff. You're doing shine out of they. They do that. Listen to today. explained give it a chance. I guarantee you'll love it. You will love it. I'm on twitter but I stay quiet because the toxicity. That's a good. That's a good decision. Are you on the INSTAGRAM is why I don't do that because a PTSD got you there. Yes Sean as a lot of issues. Yeah sorry I'm they follow him and maybe catch a glimpse into other psychosis. Text me when you see a hello and I guarantee you'll be glad you did. Oh you can't get out candy bars. Everybody said well straight to hand jobs. Four armed strength on this man. Where do they follow you? Where do they find you? I'm all my socials or the same them handle at L. E. A. H. B. as in boy. Oh and nick ended a Nick E.. Emmerson Mary a Adlia bottom anima come find me on the socials fighter on the socials you guys and follow what she's up to. She's always up stuff and it's great and it's fun you guys know where to find me and all the stuff that I do Blah Blah Blah and. I'm I'm trying to do a better job of keeping my website updated Keep emailing me if you're in town and WanNa see where I'm performing and I may or may not answer the answer you in time but I was really supposed to plug. I don't know but I'm going to be at Smith College on Monday. College where you at You May WanNa know Massachusetts North Hampton. It's in Northampton. Are you driving. None of your business do after I looked it up two inches. I don't do that I just I want to see what it looks like when I get there. Looks Nice I hear great things about going back. I'm making jokes and chatting and doing some other off doing like a weird Day Street actions during the day taking some sort of community not telling What I really I WANNA do lying? I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I WANNA thank the production team here at the nation. That's our producer. Anita Florez talented audio engineer. Andy Kristen Gabrielle Talk. The theme. Music helps with research. And you guys. We love to hear from Senator Feedback topics you think we should be chatting about gas ideas. you might have even leave us a voicemail. Three Four for seven seven seven zero four nine eight one draws a line accommodated make the nation DOT com. All my God. Leave a review on Apple podcasts because it helps people find their show. That's an actual thing you you and we'll be back next week by I.
The 400% interest rate
"So Valentine's Day falls on a Thursday. You got a big date, but it's going on the credit card. Tomorrow's Friday, the fifteenth, and you're finally getting paid you're gonna make it. But then your car breaks down on the way home. You have to call a tow truck tow truck drivers kinda shady says he only takes cash anyone's three hundred up front to get your car to the shop. You don't have enough left in your account, your girlfriend cancels dinner when you ask her for the money. So you head to that payday lender on the corner. The lady behind the counter says she can give you three hundred on the spot, it's alone. But she doesn't need your credit score. She doesn't need your credit card. She just sorta trust you. This is all a myth. Jesse is anger is the author of the chicken shit club. It's a book about white collar crime the real money here is in having the borrowers. Not pay them back. These borrowers are not typically able to pay off the loan when the next check comes in. And so what they do is they roll over these loans over and over and over again throughout the year, and the payday lenders are only too willing to lend to them and tack on fees. So as a condition of the loan, you haven't given them the tax returns, you haven't given them all your history of employment to show that your credit risk. But you have given them something that they really want which is access to your Bank account. Then they can garnish your wages take away your wages, and they can take fees off of it. So it becomes a cascading trap for a lot of these borrowers who get into short-term straits. And then can't get out of it. The government created something to protect people from these kinds of predatory four hundred percent interest rate loans. You may have heard of it. It's called the consumer financial protection bureau. They decided to create rule to try to limit the activities of payday lenders. And unfortunately, they didn't finalize it in time for when the Trump administration came in. And the Trump administration was able to re review the rules. The bureau just announced in wants to roll back its rules on payday lending the rules require lenders to check the bars ability to repay certain high interest laws which are often do within thirty days. The Trump administration says it wants to protect consumers access to credit, but critics say this type of lending can be predatory enforce struggling consumers into an endless cycle loans. High fees. And debt the CF PB hasn't been doing so hot under President Donald Trump. They have managed to gut the CFP be in a highly effective way. And the payday lending rule is one stark example of this. Remind me how exactly this consumer financial protection bureau came to be. So you have to cast your mind back to the financial crisis of two thousand eight where global capital markets collapse. The government has to save the financial system, they bail out the banks. And then there are two big revelations from this one is that there are huge areas of the financial system that are really inadequately regulated. And then the second thing is they realize well, we also don't really have the right regulators. They're overlapping responsibilities and things fall through the cracks and the one big thing that fell through the cracks was protecting consumers. No regulator not the securities exchange. Commissioner the Federal Reserve the FDIC, and we have all these Bank and financial regulators out there, but nobody had their eye on the consumer and whether consumers were getting predator. Tori products, whether they were being exploited whether being cheated and the chief architect of this in the first visionary was Elizabeth Warren. You may have heard of her. She's a professor up in the Boston area. Okay. Regional success. Exactly. She was a law professor at Harvard, and she had studied consumer bankruptcies, and she had a vision, and she laid out a vision before the financial crisis to have a regulator looking out for consumers. And once the financial crisis hit when the Obama administration in the democratic controlled congress was looking to reform the regulatory architecture of financial regulation in America, Warren, sold Barney, Frank on the idea that we should create something to protect consumers where there was a bureau that just looked out for the customers of these financial situtions. This isn't usually how our politics works. Right. That that some Harvard professor says I've gotten idea, and somehow she makes it happen. No. That's absolutely true. And I think it was because Warren was so charismatic. She was elevated to the position of congressional oversight panel that oversaw the tarp which was the bailout program for the banks, and in that position, she really rose to prominence as a kind of simple and clear defender of average Americans who was unafraid of being repaired bankers base to want to be the ones who are writing the rules. The big financial institutions they want the status quo. They don't want changes that would cause them to have to alter their business plan. They like a business plan in which they keep all the profits and the taxpayers pick up all the losses. And so she grilled bankers in grilled, Tim Geithner, the Treasury Secretary who couldn't stand her over the Obamas failure to more aggressively help homeowners to oversee the banks that they're. Bailout was overly generous to the Bank. So she was elevated and became a superstar. And how exactly does the CFP that gets realized the consumer financial protection bureau differ. From Elizabeth warns initial vision. Well, her Nishel vision was Elizabeth Warren Beeby director, the bank's succeeded in blocking her from being the first head of the agency. How does that happen? Well, you know, I think there were a lot of open ears to Bank concerns within the Obama administration. Tim Geithner among them, but not only him and the big democratic establishment to was certainly quite friendly to Wall Street before the financial crisis and continued afterwards. So, you know, the Democratic Party is a big tent, and it just happened to be that the banks occupied more space in the Obama administration than the Warren acolytes. So they believed in this. AFP bay. But she was too controversial in Obama didn't want to pick a fight about that. And appointed Richard cordray who was a warrant acolyte and didn't have the charisma didn't have the superstar power. But I would put it up there as one of the the biggest Obama ministration successes. How did they make the country work better for consumers? Well, you know, they police payday lenders. They brought a big case at the very end of cordray's term against Navient. The biggest student loan servicer in the country. People may know it as its previous name Sallie Mae accusing the Navient of steering students into loans that were more expensive than they needed to be a lawsuit just filed against the country's largest loan servicer could give some much relief to borrowers government claims. Navient misled students trying to pay back those loans. Trying to protect military families troops are often young away from home and easy prey for unscrupulous lenders and shady financial products. That's why you helped to create an office to protect servicemembers at the consumer protection bureau. So there was a lot of preventive measures a lot of education, and then there was significant enforcement. So almost a decade later has has that going. So as I say, this has been one of the Trump administration's great successes. They have brought the CF PB to it's knees. They have almost cutted the entirety of the agencies work. It's almost like it's a ghost town. You see very few if any enforcement actions out of the agency anymore and they're rolling back rules. This is an agency on life support. Coming up to explain Mick Mulvaney. He's CF or should I say, Mick Mulvaney, spec- S p it's a long story is next. You know, there are lots of tech podcasts out there. But very few of them have the kind of access to care Swisher does to the people making the big important decisions in Silicon Valley. Like Jack Dorsey from Twitter to care had a one on one with on Twitter just this week or Tim cook from apple who care also sat down with recently or Mark Zuckerberg. Maybe you've heard of him from Facebook who care also also sat down with recently care talks about all of these conversations and much more on her podcast pivot with their co host, Scott Galloway. If you subscribe right now, you get an episode tomorrow in which she'll go over what she learned from talking to Jack from Twitter, and she also talks about the likelihood of congress regulating tech this year and her beef with Tucker Carlson pivot with care Swisher and Scott Galloway get on that train. Jesse? How does deregulation at CFP go is it like jumping into a pool or is it like easing into a hot tub slower process? No, it was a slower process because cordray's term did not end right away. Oh, and they couldn't fire him because he was a the head of an independent agency. And the sea of PB intelligently had been designed to be insulated from political machinations in the White House. So it was independent and their budget was safe from congress. And so it took a little while for the Trump administration to get cordray out. They never do fire him, but he voluntarily leaves to run for governor of Ohio race in which he lost. And then Mick Mulvaney comes in. He's the only director office management budget director, but he decides well, you know, I can just mantle the cfpb BB in my downtime on the on the weekends more or less any comes in. And he gets to work right away. He's basically like the role in chief of the CFP bay. So he's doing a bunch of serious minded rollbacks of regulation, and then he's also monkey wrenching and just trying to basically provoked liberal tears, and he really succeed to me. He does certain things like he decides I'm gonna change the name of the CF PB the consumer financial protection bureau to the B C F P, the bureau of consumer financial protection. I mean it's completely pointless. Technically, what he was saying was in the the language of the law. It doesn't. Say C A P. It actually literally says congress shall create a bureau of consumer financial protection. So he says we must adhere to the letter of the law, and therefore we're going to change the name. It was one of these things that actually was going to cost a huge amount of money because banks in hearing to the regulations and sending data to this be had let her head. They had all sorts of stuff that they were going to have to reprogram, and it was gonna cost huge amount of money. So it was just a stalling thing. Give you another example. So he said, I don't think that we have our systems are secure enough. And I worried that when we subpoenaed information from financial institutions to find out what their titties are. I'm worried that that's not secure and that could be leaked. So we're going to help them. We're gonna freeze that what the result of. That was is that investigators lawyers at the see of PB who had subpoenaed information were not allowed to access that information. On their own computers for weeks. So you just brought the business of the see of PB to a halt for this supposed cyber-security investigation of the of how safe the materials he would send out these missives kind of Rumsfeld in missives to all hands emails and one of them. He said you have to remember that the see of PB works for all Americans. And then he explicitly wrote what I mean is Americans who take out credit card loans and Americans who issue credit cards Americans who take out loans and Americans who issue the lenders to. Literally said, we're working for the credit card companies and the banks. So under Mick Mulvaney, tenure does does the CF PB lose a lot of staff. Yes. So staff is way down and then you can see the results the actual enforcement actions are down about seventy five percent and the fines are much smaller. So even when they to take an enforcement action. These are tiny fine slaps on the wrist. They've dropped a bunch of lawsuits. There was an office of fair lending that looked at discriminatory practices of loans, an incredibly important mission for this if baby and he took it out of one office and put it under the director, which is seen as a way of cutting. The the mission of that Mulvaney is not in charge anymore, right know, movies non-charged anymore. He went back to being me Ownby director and Trump named this kind of faceless bureaucrat Kathleen Cranach her as as the head of the agency. Cranberry. Incidentally, sort of looked like she might be a breath of fresh air. She restored the original name to the place, which was of quite a savvy political move because nobody thought it was a good idea. And she could it was very easy way to score points. And she had the appearance of being a kind of kinder gentler administrator. And then in her first big action. She reversed this payday lending rule. And they basically rolled back to big provisions. One was the rule said you have to underwrite these borrowers. But that means is you have to know, whether the borrowers can repay you can't give money to people who can't repay because that's that's just predatory. So you need to undertake some effort to understand what their financial situation is in. Whether they have the wherewithal or the future income to pay this loan back. The second thing is they tried to limit these -secutive loans the payday lenders make their money by having these poor borrowers roll over their loans. One after another after another and tacking on fees after each one until they make their money back and more so many times over and so what the payday lending rule was going to do is limit their ability to. Roll those over to and the Trump administration Kranjcar has ruled back those two things and said, you don't have to underwrite and there's no limit on consecutive loans. How much of the original mandate of the organization what was set up under. The Obama administration remains does the organization have have any teeth left's? Well regulation is about the people who are in the regulator personnel matters. And it's something that democratic administrations have not fully understood this. I think they thought the rules kinda take care of themselves and the regulators run on the power of civil servants. And that's not really true. It really matters who the heads of these agencies are what is this particular hollowing out mean for people one when will they see and how might it look. Well, I think it's gonna mean that life is meaner and tougher and more dangerous and people will be more vulnerable in the coming years. I don't know if we could draw line to today, if you went on the street and found people or barely getting by whether that you can blame the Trump administration for that or the C P for that that might be a little bit unfair. But in a few years people are going to be back to being in hock to payday lenders all across the country, and that will be because of the Trump administration and military families will run into problems with loans and be exploited with bad insurance products and things like that. And that will be because the Trump administration. This is going to have a real effect on real people at some point in the near future. Jesse Eisenberg is a senior porter at propublica. We reached out to the consumer financial protection bureau for comment. But no one wrote back. I'm Sean Rotherham this today explained.
Lockdown, reopen, repeat
"Rise. Dot Com is an all in one system that makes online training easy to create enjoyable to take and simple to manage create training from scratch or customize hundreds of prebuilt lessons, templates and simple courses to build training. Even faster learners love rise because training is beautiful and interactive managers love rise, because training is simple to create distribute and analyze, and it loves rise because it's completely secure. See why you'll love rise by starting free thirty day trial at rise dot com slash today. Over the weekend we reached a new covid nineteen milestone, half a million deaths worldwide, and more than a quarter of those deaths have been here in the US where we've had two point. Five million confirmed cases four states, hitting one day records nearly ten thousand positive tests in Florida almost two thousand new cases in Georgia in Arizona this weekend, almost one in ten testing positive, but the trump administration is still super excited about states reopening, we have made. A truly remarkable progress in moving our nation forward. We've all seen encouraging news as we open up, America, get more than three million jobs created in the last job report. And the president's top economic advisor Larry cudlow says the risk of more Cova deaths is just the cost of doing business. We're GONNA have hotspots. No question we have in now. You know Texas and parts of the South Carolina's Arizona. we'll just have to live with it, but local leaders are sounding the alarm. We're going to have to dial it back because of what we see with the data. and. We're going to have to dial it back. Because I wanNA, make sure. That if we have to help somebody that we can help somebody. Right now team reopen, everything seems to be winning Dylan. Scott has been covering the reopening for Vox Florida Texas Arizona in particular are the places that people are watching closely now because they have a number of worrying trends, it's not only that their raw number of cases are is increasing, but they're also seeing increased hospitalizations, and they're seeing an increase in the number of tests that are being conducted. That are coming back positive. Is that to say, this can't be explained away just by having an increase in testing exactly there is some truth to the idea that if you start conducting a lot more tests, you're gonNA find more cases especially with the disease like this where a lot of people experience milder, even no symptoms at all. What's concerning and what we're seeing in some of these states is when we're either maintaining the same level of testing or increasing testing and the level of positive tests coming back as increasing. That's what suggest to experts that the virus is actually spreading in the community and more people are catching it. Do, we know why this is happening. Can we peg this all the reopening in the last few weeks? So it's difficult to ignore that this started to happen, you know a month or so. After states started relaxing their stay at home, mortars, allowing businesses and restaurants and bars to reopen as any good scientist would tell you, correlation is not causation but I do think a consensus starting to form that as people are starting to resume daily life coming into contact with more people. This virus is finding a way to. To spread again and to some extent, this was expected. But what's concerning is when you start to see hospitals in in the Houston area most recently I saw over the weekend and some in California that are starting to reach you know their maximum capacity in terms of the patients that they're able to accommodate, and once we start to reach those levels where the health system is at risk of being overwhelmed. overwhelmed. That's when public health experts political leaders get worried. Is it possible that some of the mass protests we've seen over the last month. Have contributed to the surge to the data, so far is is inconclusive or an and seems to lean. No. I spoke last week with a researcher in Minnesota. Because it seemed to me anyway that Minneapolis would be one of the first places you might see any kind of. Of New surge as a result of protests since that's where the protests started, and she told me that there really hadn't been anything. Thus far the public health experts I've spoken with have said in terms of just the number of exposures in the level of exposure all this reopening activity people going back to bars and restaurants and businesses and the number of people who are going to be doing that far outweighs. Whatever number of people went to a protest for a day or two? That was outdoors when they might have been wearing masks. You know it's hard to draw. Equivalents between the to the level of exposure that were risking through reopening is much higher than what people wrist by going to the protests. Is this surge the same as earlier ones? Is it still mostly affecting older people? So it does seem like the virus is now spreading more among younger people as opposed to older people compared to some of the earlier waves of the virus. I've never seen anything that is so prodian, its ability to make people sick or not. There's no other infectious disease that goes from forty percent of the people have no symptoms to some having mild symptoms to some having severe, some requiring staying at home for weeks some going to the hospital, some getting intensive care some getting into baited some getting ventilated in some dying. There was a really interesting study that came out of Tennessee which is one of the states. People have been watching closely where they described their cova case mix, and basically what that means is, they looked at you know how many people had been infected, and as a result how many people you would expect to end up in the hospital based on what we know about this disease, and in the early weeks of the pandemic, the case mix clearly skewed sicker like more even more people were ending up in the hospital than we might have expected based on the raw number of infections, and what's happened over the last few weeks. Is that has flipped and now slightly fewer. Fewer people are actually ending up in the hospital than you might expect based on the case numbers, and that with that seems to indicate is that it's younger healthier people who are more resilient against the disease compared to the elderly. Are the ones getting sick? A lot of young people do end up in the hospital I know somebody or another reporter in DC. He had caught the coronavirus said it was the sickest he had ever been in life, and we're still learning a lot about the long term complications and the potential permanent damage that might be done to somebody who does recover from Kobe, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily going to be completely healthy at least right away. I think what we're missing in. This is something that we've never faced before. Is that a risk for you is not just isolated to you. Because if you get infected. You are part innocently or inadvertently of propagating dynamic process of A. And I talked to a Harvard professor a week or so ago, asking about this very question you know. Have we seen as infection start to pick up in the younger population? Are we seeing any corresponding spread to more vulnerable populations? And he sent me a trove of links of new outbreaks in nursing homes in Arizona and Florida and California and Tennessee and I think that is. An indication of how difficult it is to completely isolate the vulnerable populations, and once communities spread picks up. That also increases the risk that the virus is going to find its way to the people where it can do the most harm. You mentioned a place like Houston where the hospital system is close to being overwhelmed. Is Texas is Houston taking any measures? Any more serious measures now that the virus seems to be spreading so intensely? Yeah, I think a good indicator of the seriousness of the situation. Is that Texas governor? Greg Abbott has reimposed some restrictions that had previously been lifted I believe he closed all the bars. Again in Texas and come Monday, restaurants have to go from using seventy five percent to fifty percent capacity, and lastly outdoor gatherings of one hundred four more people must be approved by local government in Abbott, because all of this has to some degree become politicized, Abbott and his team were always pretty gung ho about reopening and believing that they could allow business to resume while containing the virus, and so I think the fact that even he has seen the need to reimpose some restrictions tells you. How worried people are about this spiraling out of control? Is it possible for a state to have a second shutdown at this point? Is that politically feasible? That's a great question, and I think the big unknown is whether a state. Would we willing to go all the way back into lockdown? Stay at home orders? Almost all businesses are closed clearly for right now. States are trying to mitigate these new spikes with some targeted restrictions closing bars. Maybe limiting restaurant capacity. Restoring bands on large gatherings are delaying the openings of places where there'd be large gatherings like California has delayed the opening of Disneyland, and so I think for now. Everybody wants to see what happens if we take some of these more targeted measures, are we able to start containing the virus? Keep our numbers and check keep some health system capacity to absorb new infections, knew hospitalizations and see how that goes. I think that's sort of the question that we're all wrestling with right now is can we manage the virus while maintaining some level of activity again or is the only way to keep this thing in check to have stay at home? Mortars closed restaurants the really strict social distancing that we saw in March April May. After the break. Why the lockdown reopen repeat cycle may just be beginning. I'm no. I'm Hassenfeld filling in for Sean Rotherham. This is today explained. Know everyone's been cooking a ton during quarantine. And that's great, but if you're falling into the same old dinner, rotation and you. WanNa break from last minute. Stir fries. Don't over think it. Order in with caviar the caviar. APP offers a curated list of great local restaurants. In more than twenty five major American cities I know there are a lot of other delivery APPs out there, but caviar is a little different, because it's truly the best place to find the smaller local restaurants that need your support now more than ever, and you can support them by getting great local. Local delicious food, so download the caviar APP for yourself. Stay safe inside and get the tasty food. You actually want your favorite restaurants. The ones that you've been dreaming about you'll find them on caviar. Go check it out and just for our listeners. Caviar is offering ten dollars off an order of twenty dollars or more. All you have to do is put in the offer code explained at checkout remember, that's ten dollars off a purchase of twenty dollars or more with the offer code explained download caviar on the APP store or Google play store and use offer code explained. Essential talks is a brand. New podcast brought to you by S A. Leading Global Hygiene and Health Company in conjunction with the podcast will release early twenty twenty pre pandemic survey which asks people. How worried are you about the following threats to public health where you live, if you're curious, the top three answers back then were the pollution of oceans, rivers, and drinking, water, government, corruption and climate change. Pandemic outbreaks fell all the way down to tenth. Tenth Place, but since then everything has changed due to Covid nineteen today, health and hygiene are now crucial parts of our everyday lives and the impact. Today's policy decisions this shift, and so much more will be discussed in essential talks, first episode, hygiene and Health in times of Corona listened to essential talks to hear more on how pandemic has changed perceptions and behaviors, regarding hygiene and health on spotify I tunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Dylan, we've been talking about the latest massive surgeon Kobe cases and most of these have been in states that didn't really get a surge the first time around, but California had that surge back in March I think Governor Newsom, even imposed the first statewide lockdown back then there's a mutuality and there's a recognition of our interdependence that requires of this moment that we direct a statewide order for people to stay at home. What happened? How did California dropped the ball? I think what's happening in. California is too large degree the same story as Florida and Texas. Let's call it. A calculated risk as the state began to reopen more businesses, state leaders expected cases to rise an hospitalizations tonight both are happening in leaders say they're concerned. Officials there have pointed to relaxing social distancing businesses reopening. They've sighted people. You know maybe not being as diligent about wearing their masks as they should be, but I don't think that there's any great mystery. I mean, it's a big state ton of people. A large, susceptible population, and it like most of these other places has started to ease up on some of its social distancing restrictions I don't necessarily think of it as there's anything unique to California's situation, other than it's sort of reliving something that other states are now going through for the first time, but it does indicate you know some of the risks of reopening and potentially portends some of the actions that will be necessary to contain some of these new outbreaks. What's going on in California as sort of warning from the future for other states like New, York New Jersey Massachusetts. These places that had a big surge is the first time around and kind of managed the spread, but are now reopened. Of confounding factors with all the stuff I was looking at this before we started talking and I think hieaux actually an interesting corollary to California because it's another place that was. Had some pretty sharp increases. In the early days. that caused them to take aggressive action governor Mike DeWine. Especially, among Republican, Governors was one of the first to impose a statewide stay at home order and the virus you know grew very slowly kind of plateaued through that that lockdown period, but now as they have started to reopen, they're starting to see the same kind of increase in new cases and hospitalizations, and I saw that governor dewine has been talking about taking actions very similar to what governor Newsom has done in terms of identifying particular cities or particular counties where the numbers look a little bit scary where we're seeing. Potential problem areas or problem areas we're GONNA work with the local officials, and in conjunction with them. Make decisions about what else needs to be done, so it seems like for the time being we are GonNa see if we can't. Have these really narrowly targeted interventions and hope that those are able to contain the virus. When you talk about targeted interventions I just think about what Ruth Bader Ginsburg said after a key part of the voting rights act was struck down. She said something like if you're out in the rain with an umbrella and your dry, you don't just say Oh. This umbrella clearly isn't doing anything. You keep the umbrella the at and I think that's what we're discovering right now. It was something that public health experts were at work cognizant of even before. To, stay at home is really were imposed. Was this there's this sort of paradox public health where if you're of intervention is really effective than it's going to seem like you over reacted because you know the worst never happened because the intervention you took, and so there became a lot of energy and pressure around reopening. Because obviously, there's been a lot of economic can even mental health pain from people being forced to quarantine, and why certainly understand that instinct? It does not comport with what we know about how disease outbreaks were, and now we're seeing that if you give the virus more vectors with which to transmit, it's going to take advantage of that, and now we're. We're seeing the. The consequences and those consequences could be felt by states that are reopening more slowly right as long as there are places in the United States where a virus this contagious is still spreading, that means that the whole of the United States is to some degree vulnerable unless we're willing willing to build walls between North and south. Carolina are between Ohio and Indiana, or what have you? There's no way as you say. to totally protect against the virus, finding its way back to some of these other places, and so as we see the virus continue find its way to new places. It is a reminder that we're all connected, and unless we're willing to take steps to protect not overly. But people. The virus is going to keep taking advantage of the opportunities that we give it a few months ago. I kept hearing that some experts were saying we're just GONNA have a series of outbreaks followed by lockdowns followed by. Followed by lockdowns and It seemed Kinda hard for me to believe that that would happen. If we have outbreaks, we should follow it by lockdown, and then we'll be fine. It's starting to see more likely to me, I mean. Does that seem like the most likely outcome in the end that we're just? GonNa have a series of outbreaks and lockdowns. Until we get vaccine, it does seem like this cycle of lockdown outbreak lockdown. is going to continue until there is some kind of permanent solution to covid nineteen whether a totally effective treatment or a vaccine. We're GONNA keep kind of turning the dial to try to figure out if there's some. Happy medium we can find where. Some amount of daily life is allowed to continue without the virus, spreading out of control and risking finding its way into nursing homes, or risking too many people getting hospitalized and the healthcare system, being overwhelmed but right now. What's I? Guess a little bit scary is we're in the middle of that process and we just don't know, and it may turn out that lockdowns really are the only way. To Keep Cova, nineteen contained, and that reality is frightening, and its own way given the level of economic pain that we've seen in just the sort of social toll that quarantine places on people so I'm good answers for you know fortunately because it's a it's an unprecedented situation and and the only thing we know for sure is that you know we're going to be living with this this virus and the necessary effect that has on on our society in our everyday lives for for quite a long time. One more time before you leave rise dot, com is an all in one system that makes online training easy to create enjoyable. The take and simple to manage rise makes training so finding. You're going to start watching training videos in your free time. You'll start posting about it on social media. You'll start proclaiming your love for it. On daily PODCASTS, you can create training from scratch. You can customize hundreds of prebuilt lessons, templates and sample courses to build training even faster. See why you'll love rise by starting a free thirty day trial at rise dot com slash today. No one would have ever thought an entrenched Jimmy entity like Hollywood can let someone come in and completely disrupt the content. I'm Ronnie Mola and I'm Peter. Kafka and we're the host of the new season of land of the giants. The NETFLIX's effect. We're exploring all things. Net flicks by talking to the people who started the company will get into their bruising battle with blockbuster was twenty times larger than us, which is not a good place to be okay, so in many years. why I feel like so randomly lucky to have survived. We'll look at the mistake. Mistake that could have ended the company. In hindsight, it was incredibly tone deaf, and it blew up in our faces s it should have and we'll talk about how Netflix took over our screens, and how they plan to win the war for our attention Linda. The giants, the Netflix effect from recode in the box media podcast network first episode drops June twenty third. Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
I cant breathe. Again.
"Before we start the show I want to tell you about a different show. You might enjoy Ted ex shorts hosted by a tow Celani Ted. Ex Shorts will immerse you in surprising. Knowledge fresh perspectives and moving stories from some of the most compelling Fedex community talks out there. Start each day with short eye-popping ideas on apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you listen. Protesters Torching Minneapolis police precinct. While thousands took to the streets demanding justice for George Floyd A forty-six year old black man who died in police custody. I think what we saw here in the twin cities last night and yesterday and really all this week between the mayhem. The Malay the chaos standoff with police officers there was just this sense that the city was being overrun and was definitely scary for a lot of people block. Area that Morgan an IRA and right now is out of control for seeing demonstration in downtown that had been largely peaceful but quickly grew violent. I I was following the procession. There was a group that sort of splintered off at one point but then a series. A police cruisers swooped in and started pepper spraying the crowd to try to disperse them. And that's when things really started going a different direction. Gas Canisters now. The boys are deploying something right. There's milk being spread around. So that cared ass. I'm GonNa Stick this on Minneapolis. Police decided at some point to abandon the third precinct. They decided it was no longer safe for for. The officers are working. There is now a person who excuse me sir. There is now a person who is going and trying to get physically into the third precinct. There it was overrun People's set afire. And that's when the rest of the city started really going up flames as well as started spreading there are fires burning to the left of it at the Wide Liquor store ought communities burned down to the ground and deprived of resources like grocery stores. Pharmacies auto parts stores and things like that and communities that already struggled to attract economic development a local zone also was looted and then set on fire and autism was not alone meal. Text message from the station manager of a Spanish radio station here who who said the building. Their station is in completely burnt to the ground. And it's a historic building that had been a pillar in the community them. I'm going to be driving around town at age for closer. Look at all the damage but I was down in the longfellow neighborhood. Where where the third precinct burned down and I can't recognize that. The destruction devastation is really widespread and so it in parts of the city. It's GonNa take a long time to rebuild. I think Ricardo Lopez you're a senior reporter at the Minnesota reformer these protests were sparked after a police officer in Minneapolis killed. George Floyd an unarmed black man. Why were the police called in the first place George? Floyd was detained Monday night in south. Minneapolis over a call a forgery. This is the cell phone video from America's heartland that's inflaming passions across the country. It shows up and so for officers had arrested him and placed in handcuffs but the officer kneels on his neck and kept his neither for for several minutes. Even after floyd repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. You know this was all happening with multiple witnessed by standards who were pleading with the police to to let them up to let him go because he was struggling to breathe on the ground. Insane as much resisting arrest right now. Leading US fucking stopping breathing. Right now bro. You think that's cool that I think is what outrage a lot of people. This idea that you could have a man pleading for his life in the middle of daylight of a busy street and have multiple witnesses pleading for them to let them go that that really outrage people before the protests last night what was the reaction to this killing this tactic of a cop putting his knee on Floyd's neck. I think what is very interesting about this? Case is just the widespread in universal condemnation about the tactic shown. There I think police chiefs in cities all over the country have have already weighed in in in told even their officers that what they saw on video was was entirely wrong. I think I thought of what every good hardworking police officer quite. Frankly thanks and I was appalled as leaders in law enforcement when when we see something that we know in. Our hearts is wrong We can't remain silent and have any of the officers been arrested or charged as of just a few minutes ago getting getting notifications that Minneapolis. Police officer Dirk Shelvin. The one shown in the video kneeling. George Floyd snack has been taken into custody by by the Bureau of criminal apprehension. Good afternoon I'm Hennepin. County Attorney Mike Freeman. I'm here to announce that former. Minneapolis police officer. Derek Chavan has been charged with third degree murder. We are in the process of continuing to review the evidence. There may be subsequent charges later. And what about the other officers? Who were there when Torch Floyd was killed and didn't do anything to stop We're still waiting to hear what charges they might face you know. They've obviously been fired from their jobs. a few years ago. Minneapolis please enacted a reform. That calls for any officer. Who was witnessing a fellow officer using excessive force to intervene and if not they're just as culpable because Minneapolis. Pleased have said this week that all officers are expected to take a leadership role and so they should intervene. When they're seeing fellow officers use excessive force and obviously. This isn't the only time an unarmed black man has been killed by a police officer in the twin cities. How does this fit into the bigger picture in Minnesota? Well I think we can remember sort of the bigger I'm situations that have happened here in Minneapolis. In recent years you know going back to mark Clark and Philander Casteel and a lot of these underlying inequalities in equities have continued unaddressed Minnesota for for years and years. Obviously this is a place that see some of the widest gaps in income and held education in household wealth in home ownership in car ownership and health and education? I mean name any area in in Minnesota has one of the worst racial disparities and I think that this is a state that is that is very largely white. And it's just a very nice place to live if you're not black and that's the reality. I'm a person of color in the state and I have faced a number of incidents that I that I know are related to my race. But it's hard to escape the reality that Minnesota life is very different. If you're not white has the president weighed in at all. So president trump tweeted something that was immediately received very inflammatory by people who who especially his his language around. When the looting starts the shooting starts. And so you know the president's tweet last night did did little to to calm tensions here. I think in history of you've office looked to the leadership of the United States president to help quell unrest and and help try to heal the country. But I think that the tweet was was very poorly received. It took a dig at Minneapolis. Mayor Jacob Fry what was the There was an earlier one calling you. A radical left is a weak mayor which prompted a press conference by by the mayor who stood by himself as as he pushed back. Donald Trump's tweet weaknesses refusing to take responsibility for your own actions. Weakness is pointing your finger at somebody else. During a time of Crisis Donald Trump knows nothing about the strength of Minneapolis. We are strong as health. Is this a difficult time period? Yes but you'd better be damned sore. That were going to get through this like I said he said alone and looked pretty visibly tired and I think this morning you saw with the governor's address today. Essentially say the state is now the lead elements in keeping the city safe and the state safe to ensure that tonight our buildings do not burn. Our citizens are secure and that space that we're going to create allows us to get back to the conversation of serving justice in making sure that we're not adding to that list of unheard named This is very uncharted territory for Minnesota. The idea that entire police station were burned down at the ground is just something that had been until last night unbelievable inconceivable event but the state has a task force that has issued a number of recommendations around how to improve policing so. I think that unfortunately the death of George Floyd is going to provide a big reason why lawmakers should take a good hard look at these task force recommendations in go about implementing them. I think people are hopeful for long term. Change what that looks like. It's to artist at this point up. Next how Minneapolis has tried and struggled to reform. Its Police Department. I'm HASSENFELD FILLING IN FOR SEAN. Rotherham is today explained Sometimes you just need to talk to someone you know maybe someone you haven't been bothering every single day for the last few months you could try talking to Siri but you'll probably just get an I'm here if you WanNa talk and then you might get stuck in a loop and that's a whole thing but if you try better help you can talk to an online licensed professional counselor when you want wherever you are. You can connect with your counselor in a safe and private online environment and anything. You share is confidential to get started. Just fill out a questionnaire to help. Assess your needs and get matched with a counselor in less than twenty four hours after that. You can easily schedule secure video or phone sessions with the therapist. Plus you can exchange unlimited messages. Better help is truly affordable option and listeners. Get Ten percent off your first month with Discount Code explained so why not get started today go to better help dot com slash explained. That's better H E L P dot com slash explained. Talk to a therapist online and get help. I'm musicologist nate. Sloan and I'm songwriter. Charlie harding and this week switched on pop. We finally meet our Muse unfairly. Yeah it was actually Carly Rae Jepsen. That inspired us to create our podcast and in our first conversation together we find out that she's one of the most prolific songwriters at the time. Emotion was ready. I had two hundred songs to select from and same with dedicated. My publisher says store songs and made sheets like a chipmunk from this treasure trove of song. She deliberately her albums like a musical private investigator with the balance of topic energy and style. The beautiful crazy mind you can tell from your laughter. This is a really fun episode. We breakdown songs from her acclaimed album dedicated and the recent besides released. That just came out. Subscribe to Fox's pop anywhere. You get your podcasts know Some Waksal bound. You wrote an article for the Marshall Project about how the Minneapolis Police Department has struggled to implement reforms. Well before George Floyd was killed. What reforms have they tried so I remember the days when. Minneapolis was considered an example of liberal police reform. They had police chief who is a woman who is openly gay very into working with academics on police reform and also invited. Doj to come in when she took over that in two thousand fifteen doj found That doorways to improve especially with police. Accountability was fixing their internal tracking system. Which FLAGS BACKUPS? And second was fixing something. They Call Coaching which seems pretty unique. Instead of disciplining all their officers with a long history of complaints they send them to classes on. Police policy called coach. What do we know about how effective that early warning system was the police officer? Who Killed George? Floyd ever have a warning against him. We don't know if he was ever flagged by the system. We do know that he had a long history of complaints or at least twelve that I found on city database that tracks police complaints. But we don't know if he was ever a disciplined or coached for it so to speak. I did speak to police accountability experts. Who worked with the city on implementing the recommendations from DOJ? They told me that has been stalled and a lot of pushback from the Advocacy community to start making those changes and because of the switch leadership they have a new police chief who was there during the a former persons tenure but those changes have not really been rolling out if these reforms aren't exactly working. Are there better ideas out there? I think it comes to culture and it's something that police departments are working. How do we change culture? So de-escalation classes is something that comes up a lot. Washington state recently implemented rules at all cops in Washington state. Nasty do de-escalation training every year. It's not just the policies like how do you change the hearts and minds and other than cops in departments have been doing is trying to change who they hire so instead of hiring this cop in the floyd case is an older white male who one could argue a cop's cop you have department saying no you WanNa hire bilingual. People people with tattoos young people people with graduate degrees. So there is this push in policing to say we'RE GONNA stop hiring. These sort of hyper masculine guys. And let's focus on people that better represent our community but that takes years and years to force change like that. Yeah and I guess you know. Reforms need to be put in place but also holding people accountable right. I mean this report from Minneapolis. From two thousand fifteen that you're talking about did put in this warning system and then there's just no way to know if it's working. I mean do we know if something like this is working anywhere around the country so there is a lot of work being done like. How do we hold them accountable? But cop police departments in a for not being transparent so someone like myself and other journalists accountability experts. We don't really know what goes into these tracking systems number two. They're not uniform. One City may track one thing. Another city may check another number. Three if you're flagged to Also varies from department to Department. So the issue with policing in this country is been for not a monolith. There's no one clear rule. There's no one clear best practice so once they could be working and across the line. It's failing you're saying that it's not a monolith yet we do have. The Department of Justice is the Department of Justice. Doing anything could could it do anything? There's this idea by the public that when you have DOJ come in. They're gonNA save the day I've written a lot about. Doj REFORM DOJ their police wing. If you will who works on reform police departments. It's a very small group of people who work in the Civil Rights Division. They don't have a lot of resources. They don't have a big team and it takes a lot of work to force a local police department to change so just because you call in and just because they order reforms doesn't mean they have the resources to force the police department to keep working on those reforms. So I it frustrates me when people say let's call him to you know city and state officials need to work on this issue. Stop outsourcing it to Washington. It's not work so if the Department of Justice can't solve this who can well as he pointed out in the story. My colleague on talk to Flanagan steals mother and he pointed out in his reporting the COP. Who Shot Flannel? Casteel did go through the court system. And Juries let it goes right. He was prosecuted. But so what so? That's another problem. Is that even if you have buy in from prosecutors and they're like yes we're going to indict this guy but this guy did was screwed up. Let's get let's get convicted. You have to have a group of citizens agree with that. And we've written about juries and bias. Do they believe the coffee? They don't believe the COP. I was surprised that flannel steel officer. Who took his life got off. I thought it was pretty clear. Cut with that guy did was wrong. So what is justice? In the sense of justice be more police reform which we don't know will work will justice. Be This cop is indicted and is charged is justice that they figure out a fair group of jurors to come in and decide whether or not this person should go to prison. And that's what we need to think about okay so the DOJ can't solve it and police departments can't solve it because they can't control juries. It sounds like it's almost an impossible problem right and another point on to my college miles wrote. He spoke to Keith. Ellison General of the State of Minnesota. And he actually was working on police reform and pushing legislators to vote to start making uniform. Laws across that state for de-escalation use a force training and other measures and he couldn't get legislation passed. So that's another problem might policy. This is so complicated right like it doesn't even matter. Like Minneapolis is a great example. They had police reform. Have a new attorney general. Keith Ellison a big player in the Democrat Party come in I WANNA make changes to the state. I'm the new Attorney General State. Lawmakers will screw. It's a white state eighty five percent so the people voting to make those changes also have to buy and they didn't do anything. Just don't really elements you know. I am a police ignorant. I've been writing about his longtime so I understand it but I think most people don't understand and it's so hard to change and yes burning down. The city is waking people up. But will that force policing to change? I mean we were down cities nine hundred sixty eight right after. Mlk was SAS needed and policing still pretty screwed up. So I don't know
For all eyes only
"Usually when I call my Bank and need them to do me, a solid. They just wanted to charge me a bunch of money for said solid. I'm too lazy to really change that situation. But if you're not you might wanna check out aspiration, they wanna save you money while trying to save the world. I'll tell you about that later. You can download the aspiration apt to open an account today. Democrats control the house and would that control? They've been launching investigations. Surely you've heard about at least one of them. Mr. Trump is racist. Another thing they're doing is looking into security clearances, specifically how the Trump administration has been handing them out because the Trump administration has been doing things a little differently. Yeah. Well in the White House and across the federal government if you are federal employees or a federal contractor pretty much everybody needs to go through an application for security clearance. Ella Nilsson writes about congress for vox. So you fill out I think it's one hundred and twenty seven page form. Yeah. A lot of paperwork, and then you get a background check. You know, if you're a lower level federal employee or contractor. It's going to be done by a different investigative body that doesn't have quite as much power. But if you are say, a senior White House adviser, your background check is likely going to be conducted by the FBI, and we should note here that Democrats are kind of zeroing in on how certain people in the White House where granted top secret security clearance, but that's not the only kind of security clearance. It's the highest one, but there are three different levels of security clearances. The lowest one is confidential the middle. One is secret. Highest one is top secret. So for the bulk of this word dealing with people with top secret security clearances, and what do they wanna know every apartment you've ever lived in or like what radical organizations used to belong to all that stuff that and more. They want to know everything. I mean, basically what they're looking for. They're looking for anything that could potentially compromise you if you are handling the most classified US state secrets so they're looking for. I mean, probably the most basic one that anyone can think about is like past drug use. Or if you are in debt who do you owe money? Do you have any foreign contacts? Have you been visiting a lot of foreign countries lately? So basically, they're looking for anything that could potentially open you up to influence from another foreign country or another actor like that and seeing if you have any Volna r- abilities, and if you get rejected through that process is that it no security clearance sometimes, but we have been seeing in the Trump White House. That is not the case what's going on with the Trump White House. So in the Trump administration. There are a lot of people who in the past have been working off of just interim security clearances. So they haven't been given the green. Light by the FBI in career officials to have their permanent security clearance and stated or in some case there are people whose applications for a permanent top secret security clearance have been rejected by career officials yet these people still seem to be getting their clearances anyways. So where does this start exactly in the Trump administration? Yeah. So the first time that this came up was actually pretty early in Trump's presidency. So if we remember Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn who was not on the job for very long. He had to leave the White House in February twenty seventeen just months after Trump had taken office when it was revealed that he had lied to President Mike Pence about his discussions with the Russian ambassador. This was this huge scandal. One of the first of Trump's presidencies. So Flynn is forced out but Trump does not pull his top secret security clearance, which we should say right off the bat. This is an illegal Trump kind of as the president has the authority to do what he wants in the same. But it's certainly very unusual, and it raises a lot of eyebrows and gives a lot of cause for concern. And so Michael Flynn has access to everything. Get access to in the White House. Even once he's out of the White House. Yes. Other other high profile examples of this happening? So the next time this comes up, and it's this huge scandal. It's rob porter. So rapporter he was former staff secretary in the Trump White House, and he was working on an interim security clearance. So it's not like there was nothing. He had sort of had this initial vetting. But again was still waiting for his permanent security clearance to come in. And this all comes out after this separate scandal where two of his former ex wives came forward and accused him of being domestic abuse are basically, but in in light of all of this people realize that he has the president stuff secretary is handling some of the most sensitive files to cross the president's desk with an interim security clearance. So he is looking at state secrets very sensitive state secrets without a permanent security clearance. And that's a huge deal, which I guess brings us to the highest profile example of this and the most recently controversial, Jared Kushner, what's the deal with Jared, Jared Kushner, I was again working off an interim security clearance while he applied for permanent one interestingly that was downgraded to a secret security clearance in February twenty eighteen and then even after his application for a top security clearance was rejected by career White House officials. He somehow still gets it. And the New York Times recently reported that that happened after Trump himself personally intervened against the wishes of his former chief of staff John Kelly and former White House counsel, Don Mcgann, do we have any idea? Why Jared Kushner? Security clearance wasn't approved. We don't know for sure. And that's what some of these investigations are trying to find out. But we do know that Jared Kushner has business entanglements and foreign contacts, including ones with Russia. United Arab Emirates, Israel, certainly he has not disclosed things about his meetings with Russian ambassadors. Sergei Kislyak other Russian nationals that have come under the interest of some investigations, including the special counsel, Robert Muller, that could certainly be something that came up. Okay. So we've got Michael Flynn, rob porter and Jared Kushner, these three high profile examples of sort of unusual practices when it comes to security clearances are there others or is is that areas. One other notable when that we should mention, and that's Vonk Trump, Jared, Kushner's wife and the president's daughter what happened there, it's kind of the same thing as Kushner. I mean, I don't think there is the same level of detail as to whether her application was denied and. Overruled? But we know that Trump like he did with Kushner kind of personally intervened to give his daughter a security clearance, and we should note. I mean, there are these high-profile examples, but it seems like this problem is much larger than just those at the Trump White House NBC news reported that there are over thirty people that this has happened to where these career officials who are holdovers from previous administrations, they're not political appointees day have recommended that these applications be denied, and they get overruled. I guess in the case of of people like Kushner or even vodka it seems almost obvious at the president might intervene personally. But is he intervening across the board. And all of these cases now, not necessarily. So the person that keeps coming up in all of these cases is a guy named Carl Kline and Klein is the director of the personnel security division of the executive office of the president in the White House. This is the office that handles security clearances dolphins that is rejecting security clearances, and a lot of these cases exactly and Klein has been working at the White House since may of two thousand seventeen we don't know that much about him. Besides the fact that he's a former Pentagon official who who came to work in the Trump White House. But the reason that we know even as little as we do about him is one of his subordinates a woman who NBC news reported was handling Kushner's application. This woman named Trish Newbold filed a whistleblower complaint. Complaining about all of these over rulings that were happening under Kline. So she was one of two specialists who made the decision not to give Kushner top security clearance. According to NBC's reporting, and we know from her complaint that she said that Klein kind of intervened when she rejected Kushner's application and p didn't wanna talk about it with her. But soon after this there's this kind of strange thing that happens where she's accusing him of workplace discrimination. So this woman Tricia Newbold actually has a rare form of dwarfism and she accused Klein of putting office files out of her reach. Yeah. And telling her she could only retrieve them if she was assisted by other staff, so there's like this kind of crazy element of workplace harassment going on here as well. And beyond just kind of dealing this in her day to day job. She has these serious concerns that he's kind of flouting past protocol. Call in overruling her and other people. So all the sounds kinda sketchy. It's it's unusual. And I mean as one former Obama official that I talked to put it to me this guy named Dan Jacobson who used to be aware in the White House counsel's office and the Obama administration. He said, quote, it's completely abnormal. And frankly shocking that they would overrule thirty recommendations from career security staff in any administration, let alone the amount of time that the Trump administration has has been in office. So again, what Trump's doing isn't technically illegal. But it's concerning to a lot of people that have been in these positions before. The Democrats turn their concern into an investigation after the break on today explained. How does a Bank account try and save the planet? Aspiration would like you to know that it takes ten percent of their earnings and give to charities that help Americans in need and offers extra cashback rewards, if you shop socially conscious businesses, and none of the money from your Bank account or anyone else's will go to fund pipelines or oil Joe. So there's there's an idea of how it works Aladdin bonus. Is you get a two percent annual percentage yield zero ATM fees anywhere in the world and the option to choose your own monthly fee. Even if it's zero it's like the Kabukicho of Bank accounts. If that's where your heart is checkout. Aspiration put your money where heart is download the aspiration to open up an account today. So Ella when and how exactly these investigations into security clearances get started. So the Democrats sent the White House a letter in late January saying they wanted documents and to call witnesses to learn more about these security clearances and the practices in the White House. And so far they haven't heard much back other than no so Elijah Cummings is the chairman of the house oversight committee, and we should note here that oversight has this very broad mandate. I mean, they're providing oversight on the executive branch. So they have a very broad authority to look into basically, whatever they want as the famous committee. We saw the Coen hearing the other day. Yes. That is the same committee. So the very fact that they sent these letters out as early as they did and are choosing security clearances tells us that they think that there is something there. What that something is we don't know yet. And so far they've. Gotten no response from the administration. What powers does the oversight committee have to? I don't know subpoena to to dig deeper so Cummings can certainly issue a subpoena at this point as of last week. He was sort of still deciding what he wanted to do last week was kind of like the final letter that he sent like all right? I'm asking please give me this or I could take further steps, but we also learned last week there a report on axios that the Democrats actually already have some of the information that the White House is declining to give because there was some leaking going on. So they have a little bit. But they will probably be wanting more. So yeah, that could take the form of a subpoena. What is the committee hoping to uncover here? Like, do they think they're actually going to find something illegal or just something unethical? I think at this point we don't really know certainly drying to see if there is some sort of abusive executive power going on here with how. How Trump is approaching this. But I think that there's also kind of this interesting angle here. I mean, we know that Jared Kushner had contacts with Russian nationals that he didn't disclose on his F B I form. And while certainly the house oversight committee is about to like duplicate special counsel, Robert Muller's investigation into Trump and Russia, there's certainly sort of these tangential things that they can do here and not just Russia. I mean other foreign contacts that Kushner has their sort of taking a little bit of a deeper look into this. It's almost kind of like another piece of something that they could find out of this is just one of a whole slew of Vesta Gatien's at the house is is kicking off since Democrats took power. How does looking into security clearances may be fit into the other ones? Yeah. So there are a number of different investigations that are going on with a pretty heavy focus on Trump in the house. I mean, the house intelligence committee, and the foreign affairs committee. Want to know more about Trump's private conversations with Russian President, Vladimir Putin. There's a lot of focus on Russia, obviously, Robert Muller's investigation in into Russia. So there is this component because they are scrutinizing Jared Kushner so closely and the stuff that we know about Kushner is just about kind of his past contacts with Russia that he didn't really want to tell intelligence officials about before basically if they can find out what was this big red flag that went up on Kushner's background check that made White House officials so hesitant to give him a security clearance. What are these alarm bells that have been going off in the intelligence community about what's in Kushner's background check? And does that fit anywhere else in to any of the other investigations that are going on this point? We don't know. But it's certainly worth asking the question. L Nelson covers congress for vox. I'm Sean Rotherham. This is today explained. Thanks again to aspirin for supporting the show today. Once more before we go to percents annual percentage yield zero ATM fees and help save the planet with aspirations fossil fuel free account is your Bank account fossil fuel free. Desperation app today. Save money, and maybe even save the plan.
Living in lockdown
"Heartbreaking Italy as the country continues to suffer from the corona virus outbreak. Over a thousand people have died in the Italian. Prime Minister has announced restrictions on movement across the entire country in the most drastic response yet to the spread of Corona virus. She didn't talk to shoot a notice. We understand that all. These measures will create inconveniences. We understand that. These measures will impose sacrifices sometimes small and sometimes very large but this is a time where we must take responsibility for ourselves so Italy's effectively on lockdown. They've shut down the entire country in an attempt to stop the spread of covert nineteen. So that means something like sixty million. People are under strict travel restrictions. They're being told to basically stay home for everything but essential work and getting things like food if they wanna move around the country. For worker health reasons they need to get special permission people mandated to keep at least three feet away from anyone else or face up to three months jail. Streets are quiet. Public gatherings and meetings are off limits now theaters James Ski Resorts Clubs Sporting Events. They're all closed even weddings and funerals. Needs to be delayed and places that are open are empty. The shops in the tourist areas of Romar standing empty bars and restaurants are empty. Grocery stores are still up and running in store pharmacies but there are apparently only seeing patients through a glass or plastic barrier and. I've spoken to talion this week. Who taught me how dramatic this changes. How SUDDEN IT FEELS. Italy's this densely packed country. A lot of people live in apartments. There used to gathering in meeting in public spaces having their evening passage outta like a walk around the main streets in the cities and towns where they live and congregating in these places and now these public spaces are dead and we have to remain positive. I'm calm I'm living the best way taking all precautions we have to adopt lifestyles but we carry them when the quarantine was first imposed on the north of the country which is where. The outbreak is centered. People were a bit skeptical and may be resistant to following the quarantine orders. And now I think with the death toll and the case toll rising so fast so again more than thousand deaths. They're people are scared and they're more willing to follow instructions and to take this seriously. That had been worries for the potent himself after he cancelled a retreat because of illness but the Vatican said he simply had a common cold. Gino Coreper Year. I'm close in prayer to people who are suffering because of the current corona virus epidemic. I'd say Wolf those taking care of them and you even have like public figures like pop singers and artists taking to social media to encourage people to stay at home. There's an eel store Aqazadeh Hashtag going around sub means I'm at home and Famous people are sharing little photos and videos about their quarantine experiences. So I think the I've kind of shifted from maybe some skepticism take acceptance at. This is what needs to happen and it might change. Though in the coming days the government to set anyone found flouting the ban could face jail but patrolling the region to ensure everyone stays port will be another challenge for a government dealing with Europe's worst corona virus crisis. So Italy is in China. So they don't have this massive army and police force to keep people in line but for now it sounds like most people are being the order. They're staying home Julia. Blues Senior Health correspondent at Vox. You've been covering the corona virus outbreak in Italy from your base in Austria. Just how bad is the outbreak in Italy? It's bad so as a Friday. They have more than fifteen thousand cases and thousand deaths. And just put those figures into context. That's bigger than the other major outbreaks that are happening outside of China. So it's bigger than the outbreaks you've probably heard about in South Korea. It's bigger than Iran is the largest outbreak in Europe and only the numbers in China rival. What's happening in Italy right now? And the one thing that makes the the Italian case so startling just how quickly it escalated so just three weeks ago. Italy had reported only three cases to the. Who and again. Now they have more than fifteen thousand and so this virus really took off there and it appears to have caught the authorities off guard. Oh is that why it spread so quickly because Italian officials were caught off guard? There are a few theories so the outbreak started in the north in the Lombardy region. This is a densely populated. Area has lots of business ties to the rest of the world. Ten million people living there people coming in and now and that might have helped accelerate the spread but there are many parts of Europe. They'd have these dynamics so that might not explain everything another ideas that there were simply testing more aggressively than other places and finding more cases and not might have inflated picture of what's happening there relative to other countries so for example as of March the only seventeen hundred Americans have been tested for cove in nineteen and the number in Italy was fifty thousand in. Italy was also taking a different approach many other countries in not just testing people who had returned from China. They're also testing people without any traveling or even symptoms at the time. Another theory is that this virus got a foothold in the hospital system. Before doctors realized there was a problem and that might have amplified the outbreak. So something like ten percent of medical workers in Lombardy have been infected. There's also speculation about whether covert nineteen has been particularly severe in Italy because they have an aging population and we know that the virus hits elderly people particularly hard. But the bottom line I think is that the government was forced into this catch-up position a reaction mode like as as soon as they found cases so Italy certainly isn't unique in that sense but I think there's sort of representative of what can happen if the virus does get a foothold in a country. How quickly it can spread in how fast things can spiral house. Italy's medical system has been able to cope with the rising numbers so Italy has a system of universal public health care so they're like Canada or the UK but Italy wasn't prepared for the surge in sick people that they've seen and so doctors there have gone public about just how unprepared the health system. Was there not enough hospital beds? Not Enough Space. In intensive care units to treat people in the more severe form of this disease people need ventilators for help with breathing and Italy hasn't had that so The you have these doctors taking to social media and writing about how they've been forced to ration care and choose who treat war now here. Recently a few doctors wrote a letter to the rest of Europe. Saying get ready. You might look like Italy in a few days so so make sure that you are prepared and you. You don't see this complete deluge of your health system what happened. Lamberti is just like a bomb that exploded. You know the problem is that it exploded there and before you career is what's happening. You are like overwhelmed by the masters patients so hopefully in other countries. It's not behaving like this. What's important to know? Is that where this outbreak started in the north? It's one of the richest regions in Europe. So this isn't an Italian backwater. This is an economic powerhouse and they have a very strong health system there but again what seems to have caught them off guard is that the case counters escalated so fast. That's what makes this example particularly frightening because you have a place with a strong health system that in theory should have been able to respond to this kind of crisis but wasn't and so the implications for the US like like. I have spoken to ex director of the CDC OTHER HEALTH EXPERTS. Who say something like this could play out in the US. And so if we haven't had a wakeup call yet about how effectively this virus can spread how it can overwhelm health systems. How it can obviously have massive reverberating effects on the economy? Italy should be that warning. You're saying it's frightening. I mean I hope it's okay to ask. I mean you're about to have a baby and you know you're in Austria which is right next to Italy guessing. This is more than just a story. You're covering so I would. What is amazing to me? Is how quickly This outbreak went from being something that was like a far off problem in China to a worldwide threat and something. That's very personal to my home. My husband was traveling in Asia. I didn't know when he came back if he would have to be quarantined. While I was going into Labor what would happen. Um I've had family have to cancel their trips. Who are coming to see the baby. They were supposed to have soon. One of the obstetrical wards in Vienna shutdown cities have shut down schools universities. My due date is next week and I'm wondering if my hospital will still be open and if my doctor will still be there I've had I've had some of my sources you know. I'm pregnant suggest that I should get induced to avoid the peak transmission here in in Vienna. So yeah I think this is GonNa have long lasting repercussions for all of us for sure but hopefully it will just be a good story to tell her child in the future that Here she was born in a pandemic after the break. What it's like in Rome right now. Living on lockdown. I'm now I'm Hassenfeld filling in for Sean Rotherham. While he's on vacation this is today explained Where's the best ice cream in the neighborhood? How come there's been traffic at the same corner for a week? Is someone near me. Selling their coffee table. Find the answers to all this and so much more on nextdoor nextdoor is the APP for everything happening in your community it's available every. Us neighborhood and every member is verified. So you know. It's the best place to find trusted. Local knowledge and next door is a great tool for connecting with those around. You whether you're new in the area need to borrow a power drill or are organizing a block party. Next door is the place to go to ask invite and stay informed with next door. Neighbors worldwide are already working together to build stronger safer happier communities. So what are you waiting for? The APP is free. Go to nextdoor dot com slash explained to sign up and see what's happening in your neighborhood be sure to use the link from our show to sign up so they know that you support our show remember that's next door dot com slash explained. Hi I'm Mary Ross. And I'm the host of a podcast called reset reset is a podcast about the impact of technology how humans have shaped it and how technology reflects our values and biopsies reset is also a podcast. About how much good tech has accomplished and how much better it could be if we listen to each other. Recently we've covered stories about how artificial intelligence is being used to track corona virus. We've also covered how to solve the problem child predators on gaming sites and why are night? Sky might soon be filled with thousands of new satellites. Subscribe to reset for free on apple podcasts. Spotify or in your favorite podcast APP later nerds. Ooh Name is tiffany parks. I'm an American citizen living in Rome Italy for the past fifteen years I'm Married to an Italian and now have Italian citizenship myself and we have a four year old boy so when they initially made the announcement it was said that you know you can take a short. Walk around your neighborhood if you need to. You need to take your kids out. Walk your dog. But just the other day they took it even further and they said actually only walk if you're walking to the supermarket or the pharmacy. We don't want people walking for recreation. We don't want people congesting the street. You need to stay in your homes and it's hard to feel like you don't have any freedom of movement. I live in an apartment on the outskirts of the city and we luckily have terrorists so I can have some outdoor time. There's also a courtyard but it belongs to the whole building and so it is communal space and so we don't really know what to do there. Yesterday we took our son out for bike ride through the around the courtyard but today we decided not to do it because we thought well. It is a communal space. We also have a little playground across the street from the House. That's where most kids will play. That's completely closed. It's locked so as not even possible to go in. Honestly though being cooped up with my son is is not the only challenge. It's also challenging to be cooped up with my husband. It's only been two days and I'm already like thinking How in the world are possible? We're going to get through a month of this. My new highlight of my days to go grocery shopping. Just get out of. The House is a treat but here they'll only let a certain number of people into the supermarket at a time. And you have to wait until someone comes out and they let one person in so that means that a line builds up outside would you have to have at least three feet of space between you and the person in front of you so it ends up being a very very very long line but it does move quickly and I thought I was going to be in line for hours today and it ended up being only about twenty minutes and once I was inside the supermarket it was pretty empty? Because they're letting so. Few people ended a time and I was pleasantly surprised. The shelves were more or less full. Italians are very social by nature. Italians congregate in Piazza's they sit in cafes they hang out together. They walk arm in arm down the street. They kiss each other when they see each other and for them to be told. Okay not only. Can you not go out to dinner? Not only can you not go to your coffee bar. But you can't even hang out with someone on the side of the street you can't get into within a meter of another person and if you can stay in your house it's hard for ties. It's hard for most people to be honest but I think it's a particular challenge for Italians. I think that particularly for Italy this whole pandemic this whole virus could change some of the social or cultural tendencies of the country. There's an expression here which is Minnesota's mall which means sort of like I don't give a damn nece if if that could be a word and it's just this attitude of like whatever I don't care I'm GonNa do what works for me. Italians are famous for being line cutters. You know some of the people wait in line but a lot of people decide up to the front and slip in and I think that this whole thing that we're going through together as a country right now could change that to some extent and I think that I see people coming together for this collective good of the country and it's very easy for a young person to say I don't care. I'm not going to get sick even if I do get this. It's not gonNA kill me. So why do I care? But there's been a shift in the way people are looking at it and they're starting to think about the older generation and we have a lot of older people in Italy. It's the oldest country in Europe so people are starting to think well no going to be much much more careful because I don't want to carry this disease to my grandparents or other older people sick people and so you see people really doing their best to follow the rules. And there's always GONNA be a couple of people who who don't but for the most part. I've been really surprised at how Italians have sort of pulled together. And we're like okay. This is hard. We're GONNA sacrifice and we're going to do it and there's an expression that sort of floating around on Italian social media. Which is we're GONNA stand far from each other now so that we can embrace each other later. Tiffany parks is the CO host of the podcast the bittersweet life. Italy may be unlocked down but in at least one city residents have found a new way to stay together by singing out their windows. This particular song from the city of Sienna is an Ode to the beauty of the city. Residents actually put a new verse in which goes like this even with thunder and lightning. We are not afraid of you. Garbage Virus Ono along.
Life's a breach
"Here's a question do your career goals require you to take a standardized test like the G._R._e.. Or the G. Mat or the the L. sat or the mcat or the S._A._T.. Visit Magoo DOT COM and enter the Promo Code today for four fifteen percent off discount for their test prep. That's an A. G. O. O. S. H. DOT COM <music> Russell Brand Amir policy editor at the verge Monday night. The world found out about another huge hundred million plus plus data breach. Could you tell the people what happened Russell. Yes so capital one. You may know their their credit card ads on T._v.. What's in your wallet or their arena arena in Washington D._C.? Also also very true so essentially they were storing in some data on Amazon cloud server not unusual and it turned out that it was sort of MIS configured more than one hundred million capital one credit card customers Mars and applicants across the U._S. and Canada have been affected by a massive data breach. This is one of the biggest breaches of financial institution ever. This is what they're saying yeah. I mean it's sort of all in how you look at it. There's data from more than one hundred million credit applications right so this is sort of the thing that they mail to you and you mail back yeah. Capital one was quick to say that it wasn't that many social security numbers there was only one hundred and forty thousand U._S.. Social Security the numbers and eighty thousand bank account numbers and about a million social insurance numbers which are sort of the Canadian equivalent of the social security number. I mean that's still a a lot of people but it's not really as impressive as leading with hundred million thing so do we know who did this. At all. Show a person has been charged urged with doing this a page Thompson is a former employee of Amazon web services. They say she left an extensive digital footprint of her alleged crime on the Internet including bragging about what she did online she was just hosting it on get hub which is not usually what hackers do in this situation like. Usually you kind of want to keep it secret and have people pay you for if you're trying to make lots of money get hub where like all the hackers hanging get hub is just sort of a boring place where people put their coding projects and anyone can go there air so I mean when capital and found out about this basically the email they got in their responsible disclosure in box was hey look at this Gitta page and then had a link to the getup ages like that that doesn't seem right but it was just sort of out there in the open I feel like if she had had some nefarious purpose to it. Either there. We would have seen it anonymously out there with some manifesto or it would have been sold quietly in the sort of underground marketplaces where people will pay money for this stuff and so neither of those happen kind of raises questions about what our thought process was in doing this surveillance video shows federal agents arriving to page Thompsons thompsons Beacon Hill home in Seattle early Monday morning the thirty-three-year-old placed under arrest accused of hacking into capital one system. How unusual unusual is it to sort of apprehend a suspect so quickly after finding out something like this happened and for it to just be like a single hacker who <unk> who maybe doesn't even have a real motive well often use your sort Connected to the person's name is pretty unusual. Should it be concerning that this one person who maybe didn't even want to do something nefarious. I didn't have a very hard time getting all of this information getting something like a hundred and six million credit card applications well yeah. I mean so this is not supposed to happen like evidently this was this was goof is the technical term. That's what they call them the business. This is a goof. That's what they call this. This is a goof yeah I would. I would say it was a major severe goof unprecedented goof but also so I mean I I wouldn't downplay her technical sophistication. I mean she was really pretty good at knowing the specific configurations figuration and ways to exploit specific other configurations and she had years earlier actually worked at Amazon which is one of the things people sort of have questions about of did she have some special knowledge of how to do this but I mean very often. People are just bad at setting these things up and stuff just leaks out so maybe that should be more secure. Maybe we should be taking a closer look at capital one and sort of maybe isn't well. Yeah definitely yeah definitely really capital. One is in some trouble here. Is this just the new normal that we should expect like what we submit things to banks and official institutions that have all of our information and protect our money our credit our financial well being that this stuff is vulnerable and can just get easily easily and randomly hacked. I mean yeah like I think fundamentally. If you are filling out a form and you are submitting it to do a large corporation I mean any corporation. You should probably figure that that information is potentially going. GotTa Get out there. The real concern is the social security numbers because that is the raw material for identity theft and it's not just I have the social security number have the keys to the kingdom but okay if I have a recent address from the person and I know southern full name and I know their social security number and I know a couple other things I can probably fill out a loan application that no one will look too <unk> closely at and maybe if I put in my address instead of their address they'll just figure the person moved and you know credit card. Companies are always sort sort of looking out for this but at the same time they don't WanNa make it too hard to apply for a credit card because that's their business and so yeah it's tricky I I mean if we're trusting the banks and the credit agencies to take care of her information and they're not what can people do in the meantime to keep their information secure actually probably the best thing you can do is get a credit freeze that will just say do not let anyone apply for anything in my name until I sort of call you up and give you this these special four digits the other thing you can do. It's a little bit less intense. Is You just get credit monitoring where they're looking. They'll say oh well. Actually this person just applied for credit card with a different address was that you was that not you and they'll sort of be watching more closely. I I usually costs money but actually if you were in one of the recent breaches they might be offering it for free. The Russell's talking about equifax right now because right now equifax is facing the music for its big huge breach from a few years ago the consequences for big corporations that don't take care of your personal information after the break <music> back in my day. When you wanted to do test prep for one of these G. Mat G._R._e.? L Sat mcat S._A._T.. Situations you had to like go somewhere to to a class but with Magoche. You got some other options that Magoo Dot Com you get all your practice questions your study schedules you get video lessons and access to an expert tutor team if you need extra help and if you're retaking test Magoo offers a score improvement guarantee not if you don't improve you get your money back at Magoo dot com study materials are always up to date and super relevant to the questions you'll see on the actual actual tests and guess what students who have used Magoche love it find out for yourself over at Magoo Dot com the Promo code today gets fifteen percent aw that's M. A. G. O. S. H.. Dot Com and the Promo Code today for fifteen percent off discount at Magoo Gooch saying Magoche. That's the truth <music> Russell one of these big data breaches kind of came to a head last week when people found out that hey they type their name and information into some website and maybe get some money back for one of these breaches. This was Equifax. What happened in that case? Equifax is one of the companies that's doing the a credit monitoring the credit freeze. Is there sort of maintaining the credit information on anyone who's applying for credit in twenty seventeen they announced announced that they'd had a data breach of one hundred forty seven million people and it was very very bad and so in the years since that <hes> the F._T._C. The federal trade commission has has been suing them and sort of trying to make the American consumer whole is sort of just compensate the people who were part of that which which is basically everyone and so that happened they finally got the settlement came in. There's a website equifax breach settlement dot com or you can sort of put in the last six digits of your social security number because you shouldn't be as we covered earlier. He shouldn't be putting your social security number into random websites but yes so you can go to that site. If if you were in the breach you're entitled to compensation and it will give you this kind of choice about how you want that compensation to work. What's the choice? What do you actually get so either? You can get the credit monitoring which conveniently Equifax is in the business of providing way as an apology for letting all of your information nation out into the open they will bother to your credit for you for free yeah. I mean it's not like as an apology. It's like if I like hit your car aw any crushed up the bumper and I'd be like you know what new bumper on me and it's not like. You're supposed to be happy about it but you're supposed to. I'd be like okay that was that's good enough fair but isn't it kind of not like that because it's like if you borrowed my car and like broke it and then you're like let me continue. Can you to borrow your car but not break it. It feels more like that well. If I fix it and I tell you that I fixed it and maybe the bumper that I get you isn't isn't exactly the same color as the rest of your car. See so notice it but it's better than like a crushed bumper and you know oh that you're not really going to get anything better for me. Hang would sort of you would like Si- heavily and accept it. I guess I have no other option because I can't People saw on the Internet and lost their minds. Everyone was just like a smash that one hundred twenty five dollars button is that because like sorta feels feels like free money to people who haven't felt the actual tangible effects of having their information breached. I think that's part of it. I think the other thing is that like people are broke. It's hard out there like it's bad. I mean I in New York. I don't know what it's like in D._C.. But if I walked out on the street and I was like Hey I want you to do something. Here's one hundred twenty five dollars it- it's nuts. Are you saying there's a lot of things you would do for one hundred twenty five dollars. Well not me. I'm I'm a wealthy blogger. Sure sure sure sure sure sure sure you know so yeah. One hundred twenty five dollars for this thing that already happened to you and you didn't even notice people are all about it. Is there a chance that people don't get a hundred and twenty five dollars. If say like a ton of people sign lineup for the settlement though yeah so there's a hundred and forty seven million people were affected their estimate is that a little under a quarter of a million people will sign up and if that's the number of people then they'll get one hundred twenty five dollars each but if a million people get the money then they get thirty one dollars and it sort of keeps going down to the point where if absolutely every single person signs signs up they get twenty one cents. What's twenty one cents does a company like Equifax even feel pain here. I mean on one hand. It's twenty one cents to one hundred and twenty five dollars at most and on the other. It's people choosing like yeah monitor my credit for free in which case all they have to really do is provide a service service. They already provide in probably coax you into paying for the service of Benchley for some people I mean. Are they hurting after losing everyone's information to any any of these companies hurt after losing your personal information well. Everybody hurts some time. I think they probably aren't hurting as much as they should be like for me. I look at this and I think why does this company even exist after this their only job was collecting and storing and safely disseminating financial information so if they can't protect it why let them handle it at all yeah yeah. What's the answer to that question? Well I mean 'cause their business and we don't like shutting down businesses for consumer protection reasons in this country like if you want to sort of get a political cause out of it we need to empower the F._T._C. to be harder on these companies and sort of be a more powerful and fearful agency so that when they're in this situation they can really make these things hurt as much as they should. Because I mean fundamentally I think it's still worse for the people who got breached than and it was for Equifax and they weren't even intentionally in a relationship with facts. They didn't decide to buy something from Equifax Equifax just collecting their information ambient ambient because it's that's what it does. The problem is that the breach happened in the first place and how can we make the penalty significant enough. It doesn't happen in the future like that's the long term thing. People weren't like meaningfully damaged that much. It's really just this is an insane system and how can we we make the fine big enough that it makes people try to make the system better <music> brandon as you know as a wealthy blogger at the verge of Sean Rotherham. This is today explained <music>. Thanks Magoche rush for supporting the show today again. Magoche dot com with Promo Code. Today is the place to get fifteen percent off discount the Mugu online test prep which helps you study anywhere anytime on your desktop or on Mobile M. A. G. O. S. H. DOT COM.
A little privacy, please
"Aspiration is a Bank that has really lofty ambitions. They wanna save you money while trying to save the world when you give aspirated your money, you can rest assured that none of it's gonna go to fund oil pipelines or to fund oil drilling. If that's the kind of thing you care about you can download the aspiration app right now to open an account today. Let's be real. We all know our data is being mined by Facebook and Google and everyone else, but we go along with it because it's easier to just use all of their services and ignored the tradeoff occasionally were minded that we really should care more that the cost of giving away all of our data can be quite high. Casey Newton cover Silicon Valley for the verge. And he says twenty nineteen might be the year. All of this changes. I think there is going to be some action, and it's all because of something that happened last year in California. Right after the Cambridge Analytica data privacy scandal that you're probably familiar with. Right. Facebook had a an API that Dave away a lot of data and some people got a hold of it and used it to try to influence our election. That's a big issue. I mean, people have a right to be very upset. I'm upset that that happened while in the wake of that. There was a real estate developer name Alastair McTaggart who spent three million dollars to put forth a ballot proposal that would create some really robust protections for consumers around their data. Now, get this all the time. Why do I care about privacy? I got nothing to hide. I don't care what I buy. I live this boring. Life. People say that to me I say to them. Well, the point is not just about you. It's about society and the initiative was gathering so much momentum that at the last minute, he brokered a compromise with the legislature and with tech companies and the result was a California privacy law that is going to take effect in twenty twenty assembly built three seventy five. It's the California consumer Privacy Act of two thousand eighteen and it deals with how companies collect and use our data. It creates a whole new set of protections. That Americans have never had access to before. And what exactly does that regulation? Do. So the new law does a few things play the biggest is it just grants consumers the right to know. What information companies are collecting about them why they're collecting that data and who they're sharing it with. Right. So pretty basic stuff, but stuff that we have so far not had any right to it. Also gives us the right to tell companies to delete our information and not to sell or share it and businesses must give us if we often out the same quality of service. We were getting when we were giving them our data. So that's a pretty nice set of features that so far has been denied to us in America. And so how does that compare to what's on the books nationally is that just far beyond what we have already? So it's interesting that in America, we don't really have a comprehensive federal. Law around data privacy. Instead, we tend to regulate it by sector. So you might have heard of hippo which sort of controls the way that health did it can be shared. There's for which applies to school health records. And then there's something called Coppa which regulates data privacy. But only for kids under the age of thirteen. Why do they all sound like Pokemon or something they're they're adorable laws with teeth? Okay. Good good. And you know, in addition of those the Federal Trade Commission has at times tried to enforce data privacy standards or kind of set standards. But as you might imagine tech companies have pushed back on that and told them that they do not have the jurisdiction to do that. And how did tech companies in Silicon Valley react to the law California passed? So they reacted in two ways. The first was to say that they supported the law very strongly at the second way was by trying to undermine it. And make sure that it never takes effect the way that they're doing that is by lobbying for a national Bill that will supersede the California legislation and privacy advocates are really really worried that a national law if and when it comes to pass is going to be much weaker than the one that was passed here. Why appear to support it? And then, you know, through back channels and lobbying try to get a national law passed, so lobbyists aren't dumb. They know that there is probably more attention being paid to data privacy right now than at any time in history in Europe. We have a regulatory framework called the general data regulation protections. We need a similar internet Bill of rights here in the United. States. We need to put some digital rules of the road into law when it comes to people's privacy. And they know that it's not going to be a popular position. If companies like Facebook and Google come out and say, well, we actually don't think consumers do have a right to know data were collecting or who were selling it to. So they know that that would look really bad. They're also deeply worried though that there will be a patchwork of legislation that gets passed across the country. They would have minor variations in what kinds of data consumers could request or what sort of actions, they would take which would just make it very difficult for them to operate a national service. And so they're hoping they can get one consistent piece of legislation that can apply to the whole country. So they essentially only have to rewrite their software once. What kind of laws might come out of a federal effort here? Well, there was a what they called a listening session in California this month, where people on both sides of this issue talked about that exact thing and lobbyists for the tech companies said that they are not trying to weaken the law and just that there are some inconsistencies in it. For example. The law says both that individuals can request data but also households can request data. And so they raised the possibility that you might be able to request all of the data that Facebook has about your roommate, which was presumably not the intent of the law. So they're hoping to kind of iron out some of those kinks at least they're saying publicly. Of course, it would also not be at all surprising, if the national law, you know, didn't have quite the teeth that the California one does should it be reassuring that California was able to do this considering how powerful and wealthy. These companies are even their home state was able to legislate around. Them in a way that they don't seem to like, I think so although I would also note the tech companies are really bad at getting what they want right? Like, they're all of these examples where tech companies are radically opposed to something and it happens. Anyway, for example, all of the big tech companies are heavily invested in the idea of immigration reform. They want more H one B visa, so they can get more workers from overseas to build new software. They've been fighting that battle for it feels like a decade and they've gotten absolutely nowhere on it. There was a piece of legislation that went into law last year called foster and sesa- which was purported to stop sex trafficking. It winds up regulating a lot of speech on the internet that is about sex that has made it impossible for a lot of online. Forums to even host any discussions of sex for fear that they will be held liable and potentially driven out of business that was something that all of the tech companies opposed until. Will you know, suddenly they didn't and they essentially got steamrolled by a bunch of other forces. So even when the tech industry puts its mind to something. It's it's not always very good at getting what it wants. And that's the spite the fact that lobbying spending. These tech companies has been increasing exponentially for a decade is the kind of thing that both parties agree is a priority. You know, in California, the Democrats have super majority control of the legislature. So, you know, there was essentially no risk that Republicans could have derailed this even if they wanted to, but nationally it would seem that data privacy is bipartisan issue, if you look at the hearings that were held in congress last year with all of the big tech companies while they weren't always about data privacy issues, specifically for the most part Republicans and Democrats were asking pretty pointed questions about what kinds of data these companies collect in what they're doing with it. So it doesn't seem impossible that will see. A bipartisan compromise here. Do you think something could happen this year? So when I was in DC last year, I spoke with some congressional staffers who told me that they did expect. There was going to be kind of a mad dash before the California law takes effect next year to get something into place. I think you're gonna see a lot of pressure on them to figure out some kind of national law. Casey new reports on Silicon Valley for the verge. He's got a daily newsletter called the interface all about Facebook in democracy. You can find it at the verge dot com slash interface. Gear Swisher spent a lot of time talking to the most powerful people in Silicon Valley. I asked her what more privacy and value for our data might look like after the break. Okay. So you've got your big banks that charge all sorts of high fees, and maybe use your money to fund the things that you might not agree with? And then there's this Bank called aspirin that wants to do better. They've been featured in Forbes and the New York Times and money magazine, which I've actually never read that sounds like a good one. They offer a one percent annual percentage yield zero ATM fees anywhere in the world and the option to choose your own monthly fee. Even if it's zero I think there was a nine inch nails album that worked like that. Once aspiration commits ten percent of their earnings to charities that help other Americans and does not use any of its money to fund oil pipelines or drilling. If that sounds good to you. You can put your money where your heart is and download the aspiration app right now. Open up an account. You earn one percent annual interest pay zero ATM fees, and who knows maybe, you know, make the world a better place while you're at it. privacy. There's a famous quote by Scott mcnealy from when he was running SUN Microsystems, somebody said there's no such thing as privacy get used to it zero privacy. And I think he's probably right. Like, I in fact, he's very right right now. But control of your data is what this should be about. Do we have a right to control all of our data because it feels like the trade off? We're making is we get all these services for free and in exchange, we surrender all of our information. It's just it's just knowledge of it. Right. Yeah. Like, you're gonna be giving what your liver now? Like if you didn't really understand that you'll be like, oh, wait a minute. And I think it's explained in plain English if you understand where it's going. I think control absolutely like they can't use it for purposes that you weren't intended to since you can't intimidate everything you should be told when they're doing unusual things with it should be super simple to understand where your data's going and how it moves around the internet there. So. Many players here federal lawmakers fifty states so many companies what will it take to get this right for the entire country. You know, a national privacy law some sort of privacy law that that it makes sense doesn't squash innovation right? You don't wanna make it too onerous for small companies to deal with all this data that, you know, the the issue is when some of these things when they're two owners, the googles and Facebooks of the world do great because they have teams of lawyers. That's what's happening in Europe. So it's really hard to create a startups because they have to follow these very difficult laws that are hard to do. And the question is the other one is that these companies can lobby, you know, they have lobbyists they act like they're like simple folk with their hoodies, but they've got huge James of lobbyists now. Yeah. And so you have you have legislators like Chuck Schumer who's really friendly with Facebook, for example or friendly with Google or others who doesn't want as much legislation. Yep. You know, Alexander your Costco is written quite a bit about this issue. The power of tech companies on Twitter. Which is ironic, obviously. But there's there's gotta be a way to come to the middle of what works for businesses, and what works for consumers, I would opt for consumers always. And that's what legislators should be doing. But obviously that happens. Never the US is a special case, obviously next to Europe. We we're not as crazy about over-regulating business, right, Oregon. All right. Exactly. Yeah. What do you think makes sense for the United States when it comes to data privacy? I think it's very clear where there's I did a story for the New York Times of column about the internet Bill of rights, and it had a number of different ideas. And it's not one can't have one internet Bill of rights, but you can have is an idea around a couple of things. I would I would think control of your data when you give someone data. It's just for them and it stops there. And they can't use it for other things. Just a knowledge of it. You can't click every time because that's gonna make you not pay. Attention just gonna keep clicking. Because I, you know, I really want this dating app or whatever it is the scrutiny. Sure. Scooters? Whatever. And so there should be a clear signal when you're signing and plain English. This is what we're going to do with your data. And then when they do something else with it to to inform you and tell you about it. And then when they one of the things I think is critical when there's a hack that they have to tell you immediately like immediately like look even apple didn't tell us about this problem with the FaceTime for a week. Right. And then what happens you get all these attorney generals come in law and nothing happens. And so they should just say, look if there's a big hacking, you've gotta say like right away, even as you're trying to figure it out that you warn people. So they can change their passwords or whatever how do the sort of, you know, good intentions of Silicon Valley complicate this. The fact that you know, Google's motto is don't be evil or it's been a little worn out. Alphabets motto is do the right thing. That's a little worse for wear. I don't know. I was there when they talk talked to me about that particular thing. Right. When they were thinking of it. It was just ridiculous. It was ridiculous PR. I'm sorry. I know what they were thinking like this idea. It's like. Whoa. Wait a minute. Do we assume evil like you know, what I mean? Like, wait. We didn't why do we have to declare don't be able where you considering evil. I'd rather them. Just be honest and say, listen, you create an enormous amount of data moving through your day by wandering around using your phone using the maps ordering pizza blank, you know, playing the game dating your treasure trove of information that we can then sell back to you in the form of ads, and we're going to do that. And here's how we're going to do it. And maybe they should pay us Gavin Newsom ideas about this in California. Maybe they should like look care. We make fifty dollars off you you want twenty of it. I don't know. I just it should be. It's should be a more a relationship, essentially, you are they hate this expression. You it's an and Tim cook from apple uses because they don't trade an dated this way, although they certainly benefit from Google search. They get billions of dollars, you know, everybody's sort of jacked into the system of information. And but he does say this is raise your the product. I don't know if you're the product, but I just recently interviewed Roger McNamee who's written a book called sucked. He's like you're not the product you're the fuel. And it's true. I think that's a better way to put it your the fuel that that makes them gives people insights, not allows marketers to reach you. And so there's got to be a new system. It's more creative. They wanna be so creative, and they don't want to be evil. What's the what are the things? They can do to give you these great services benefit from the financial and also help you and protect you. So we heard from Casey up top that were definitely going to see a push for national data privacy legislation this year. What do you think the chances are of something actually getting past not good? Not good. But you never know. I mean, there's certain it's got to go through the committees. I think it goes through the commerce committee in the house and the same thing in the Senate doesn't have a sponsor yet in the Senate. But there's a lot of people interested in the topic. And what it looks like, you know, I Nancy Pelosi was very committed to the idea of it. But she's got her hands full. She got the crazy freshmen over here, and this and that and also you're going into. The the presidential election and privacy. Doesn't ring quite as true is healthcare like universal healthcare or Medicare for all. Or you know, it doesn't it's not as sexy a topic. Like, we would like to protect your data. Oh, thank you. Sloganeering? Yeah. It doesn't. And it's not a great thing. Although Amy klobuchar in her announcement when she had the snow falling on her head that was one of her was right up in the top of her platforms. Regulation of tech, which was the first big the others talk about it. But it was right front and center for her. I don't know what her prospects are nationally. But it it was interesting that she picked that. And she's quite there's a lot of very adept legislators on this topic. Mark Warner Rokon of his congressman Michael Bennet from there's a bunch. There's a bunch of very people who do understand these issues, and including in governors like Gavin Newsom in California or Jared policy in cal-, Colorado, certainly knows he comes from an internet background tons of attorney general's or dying to lawsuits on these things which is not the way we should do this lawsuits. And in the meantime, I guess we should just brace ourselves for another scandal or two before anything happens scandal. It's gonna keep happening. The more you load. Jack yourself in the system the more. They they have the ability for mistakes to happen. And most of them are mistakes. They're not malevolent, but they are malevolent because they're gonna fix them eventually becomes willful ignorance of of of enormous amounts of data, and you sort of just roll over and go crap like cheese we's them again. And there, and then you're like, oh, they deliver really quickly, and I like them, and right, and ultimately become a creature of their what they want. So. But they have good delivery. Jerry Swisher hosts to tech podcasts once called Rico decode the other one is pivot. I'm Sean Rotherham. I host just one podcast today explained, and we launched this podcast one year ago today. Thanks again to ask raisin for supporting the show today. Aspiration wants to give you a Bank account that you can sort of trust won't harm the world. They say you can save the money and save the planet at aspirated. None of the money you invest with them will go towards drilling or pipelines. If that sounds good to you, and you're interested you can download the aspirant app now to open account.
The Dems Went Down to Georgia
"Does anyone actually know why mail chimp is called mail chimp. I have no idea I mean it's a pretty random sounding name for a company that offers an all in one marketing platform. That'll help you jump. Start Your Business with easy to use tools like the number one email marketing solution website builder social posts scheduler find out more male. CHIMP DOT COM. If you have an idea let me know I'm Sean at Vox. Dot Com at Rama's firm on twitter's. Why is it called mail chimp? We're we're in a battle for the soul of America ready to fill this majority after so much impeachment inquiry over the past few weeks. I gotTA commit. I actually felt relieved to see all the Democrats roll out on stage last night in Atlanta for their fifth debate. I don't even really mind the totally ridiculous Of vendors style INTRO ON MSNBC JAW humanity can do and then after that intro. They went straight into impeachment. We're in the middle of the fourth presidential impeachment proceedings in our nation's history so we didn't really learn learn anything new on impeachment. Ella Nilsson is covering the twenty twenty race for Vox senator. Warren and Senator Clutch our asked on the top about it. Warren has been very clear that she has supported impeachment from the beginning Sanders was asked about it and he sort of said yes. Trump is a terrible president but also oh and then pivoted to his message of we need to address these. You know more systemic inequalities so I think that it was kind of a good platform for everybody to just say what they've been saying for a long time. I don't know if I'm projecting because he's beginning a lot more attention lately but it felt like Pete. Buddha judge was very very prepared for this question and came came out swinging with his answer more so than any of the other candidates. We are absolutely going to confront this president for his wrongdoing but we are also each running to be the president cool lead this country after the trump presidency comes to an end one way or the other Buddha judge kind of benefits from not being a creature of Washington. Here I mean. He's the mayor of South Bend. Indiana which is a relatively small city. This is kind of his pitch for his presidency is that he is not of Washington. He is from America's heartland heartland. He understands the challenges of of regular people Washington. Experience is not the only experience that matters. There's more than one hundred ears of Washington experience on the stage. And where are we right now as a country and I think that while everybody else is embroiled in this. This impeachment went debate. He was able to to touch on it and then kind of launch straight into his own pitch about his candidacy. The experience of knowing what is at stake as the decisions made in those big white buildings come into our lives our homes our families our workplaces and our marriages and I would submit that. This is the kind experience we need not just to go to Washington but to change it before it is too late and I think that the impeachment as a backdrop to all of this might be you good for Buddha judge more than anyone else especially given that the senators that are running for president may actually have to come off the campaign trail to you deal with an impeachment trial so Buddha judge benefits no matter what on that. I feel like we didn't actually have that many robust conversations on policy he last night but we did have some revelations about the candidates through sometimes superficial conversations about policy so I wanted to focus on three of those income inequality equality the environment and race. Let's start with income inequality and this conversation was sort of about income inequality in the country but also about the candidates on stage. Yes Tom's tire and his plaid tie got attacked for being a billionaire last night and actually then then injuring leapt to his defense. And you know it was like Geico. Com Star is a good billionaire. He cares about the environment. It was kind of an interesting illustrative moment because we've had plenty of candidates railing against millionaires and billionaires but but last night it was kind of an interesting dynamic because Amy Klobuchar senator from Minnesota talked about kind of her humble beginnings and so brought it's more of a personal experience to it. I am someone that doesn't come from money. I see my husband out there. My first Senate race. I literally called everyone I knew and I said what is still an all time Senate record. Thank you raised. Seventeen thousand dollars from ex-boyfriends and I'd like to join expanded because the field is so large and like there is still no clear front runner. We've lately had Tom. Steiner entering the race is a billionaire. who has brian organizations like next Gen and need to impeach former New York City mayor and billionaire. Michael Bloomberg is talking about getting in and of course like these guys as Klobuchar kind of whiz nodding to sort of have a little bit of an unfair advantage in that they can just sell fun. They don't need to go out and fundraise and worry about you you know hitting their their quarterly fundraising numbers. Because they just have so much money so Yang defended style as a billionaire who's dedicated a lot of his wealth in means to you know fighting climate change but then Biden went after him pretty hard on climate change so yes oh on Wednesday night climate finally sort of got its big moment and one of the things that I I noticed. Was the the questions on climate like went to Tulsi Gabbard and Tom Style. None of the like leading for candidates got a question climate which it seemed a little off to me but anyways so Tom Star gets a question on climate he immediately said the only person on this stage who will say that climate climate is the number one priority for me but he kind of immediately got a job from Joe Biden. Who pointed out that style? Steinmeier used to invest in coal mining. While I was passing the climate change bill and that sort of facts said was is a game changer while I manage the ninety billion dollars recovery plan investing more money in infrastructure that relates to clean clean energy. And anytime we've ever done it. My friend was more coal mines and produce more coal around the the world according to the press then all of Great Britain producers and styles tried to defend it and said that ten years ago he came to the conclusion that climate has a huge problem and has since spent a lot on environmental cause as it was like a rare moment of tension which didn't feel like we got as much last night with people like de Blasio Joe and Delaney and and Hickenlooper out of the mix. Another one came up of course on race. What was that conversation like? There was a sort of a two-pronged pronged discussion on race. One came when Mayor Pete. Buddha judge was asked about kind of significant hiccup in their outreach to you black voters a notch their plan that addresses racial inequality in America used stock photo of a woman from Kenya as the main image and Kamala Harris as the only black woman. Running for president was asked about that for too long. I think candidates have taken for granted constituencies that have been the backbone of the Democratic Party and have overlook those pictures and have you know they show up when it's close to election time show up in a black church and want to get the vote but just haven't been there before I mean you know the would there are plenty of people who applauded black women for the success of the twenty. Eighteen election applauded black women for the election of a senator from Alabama But at some point folks get tired of just saying oath thanks for showing up and and say well shot for me and it's kind of worth noting that even though she had a powerful argument last night she's been struggling in the polls including in South Carolina where Joe Biden is clearly early. The candidate that is foreign away like running away with the black vote right now so he has a huge coalition of support. And that's you know partially because he was Obama's vice as president he has ties in South Carolina. He's just like a known entity in the state and meanwhile the two candidates that were on the debate stage last night. They're actually now now. Three black candidates running with divall Patrick in the mix but cory booker and Kamala Harris have not been doing as well with black voters so last night. It was really notable all that booker like went after Biden especially on racial issues on drug policy around marijuana. I have a lot of respect for for the vice vice president. He is sworn into. My Office. Is a hero this week here. Literally say that. I don't think we should legalize marijuana. I I thought you might have been high when you said it because marijuana very wanna our country is already legal for privileged people biden did take a moment to clear up his views. And I'd say that he does believe in decriminalizing marijuana but then if this was a moment to sort of look good on race he kinda shit the bed because he said listen. I come out of the black community in terms of my support if you notice. I have more people supporting me in the black community announced for me because they know me they know who I am. It's three former chairs the black caucus the only black African American woman that ever been elected to the United States Senate a whole range of people. Now my point is I forgetting about Kamala Harris Existence. When she was on the stage right there with him did not look good? Buddha judge also had to answer a couple of tough questions on race which I think is sort of his biggest challenge right now I mean this. This is something that he knows is an issue campaign noses an issue and there have been issues in south bend with with race relations between the police and members of the city with housing with Buddha judge. Firing the city's first black police chief after he took over and so he talked about the concept of racial inequity equity in his own city. I think he sort of admitted that like as a white man. He can't really relate personally to that struggle of of black Americans Akin's but he also tried to pivot and talk about the fact that he is a gay man and that he understands how it feels to be a marginalized member of society wall. I do not have the experience of ever having been discriminated against because of the color of my skin I do have the experience of sometimes feeling like a stranger ranger in my own country. Turn on the news and seeing my own rights come up for debate and seeing my rights expanded by a coalition of people like me and people not at all like me working side by side shoulder to shoulder making it possible for me to be standing here wearing this wedding ring in a way. That couldn't have happened happen to elections ago. Let's just how deep my obligation is to help those whose rights are on the line every day even if they are nothing like me in their experience I think it remains to be seen if that is going to be sort of an effective pitch to African American voters but last night we sort of saw him trying to shoe attempt to make an effort to bridge. That gap did it feel to you. Like he found a new gear last night. I mean got more attention from the moderators and even from other candidates and thus he kind of had to defend himself a little more almost a little surly. At times I would say it was an interesting juxtaposition to what we saw in the October debate when Buddha judge was the one that was doing a lot of the attacking right like he was going after Warren on Medicare for all kind of tag team that won a little bit. But you know the Buddha judge campaign is kind of entering sort of this new phase a new profile but that comes along along with with distinct challenges both on the debate stage and off the debate stage and in a minute the rise of Mayor Pete how it happened whether it means anything today. Explain a lot of people out. There have great ideas right. But what if you don't know how to get that idea to people like there. Was this whole incident recently where this dude was like. Walking down the street in Jamaica Queens and he found an in and out Burger on the sidewalk in Jamaica Queens. The thing that's interesting about that is that the closest in and out Burger to Jamaica Queens is like in Texas there are no in and out burgers in New York City and yet this guy was walking by on the sidewalk looked down and saw this perfectly pristine in and out burger just sitting there on the sidewalk in a rapper and he was like how did did this happen anyway. He commemorated this moment of finding an in and out Burger on the sidewalk in Jamaica. Queens with these t shirts that said Jamaica Queens with the outlaw Ghanem all the proceeds to charity like this guy had a great idea. I wonder who built his website. It must have been a lot of work to market. These t shirts is to build a website to sell these t shirts to distribute all these t shirts out. I Bet I bet the guy who did it all could have used an all in one marketing platform for help and mail chimp offers one of those. So if you're like making a funny t shirt based on an incredible story that happened one time and you're ready to be your own boss us while you're doing it and you're kind of asking yourself. How do I do this? Start with mail chimp. They got an all in one marketing platform and you can find Milton. Dot Com is now the leader in Iowa which gets the twenty twenty devoting underway in. Just eleven weeks a lot of the other main candidates in this race. They were sort of very well known before the Primary Started Bernie Sanders Elizabeth Warren and Joe Biden. Those were sort of big heavyweight celebrities. Pete has really sort of had to bootstrap campaign like literally. Nobody newly was when he started. It seemed like a joke candidacy. Hi pronounced this mood me. Get get again but a bank. And what do you think it means. But but yeah but that scaled but but he was incredibly available to the media. He went on all kinds of podcasts. Everywhere he went on the weeds he is the mayor of South Bend Indiana. He is a candidate for president in twenty twenty and in lieu of further introductions. Just please bring out mayor people to judge and then he became quite popular with donors. He raised a ton of money and and now he is running TV ads strategically in the early states and the ad seemed to be working as a veteran and as a mayor. I've seen what we can achieve when we have each other's backs you know he's still behind obviously but it's been a real kind of success story out of a very big field. So what's Mayor Pete's appeal. I think something compete appeals to is people who like the idea of a more moderate Democrats somebody who will not frighten voters with radical positions. But who is still something of an outsider. Something of a fresh face ace right that you know. There's a sense that you need somebody who is not part of this system and not part of the establishment but also isn't a frightening radical at the same time you you hear incredible hostility to him from like members of Congress right Democratic Party elected officials really see him as a guy who's like jumping in line. It offends their sensibilities ladies as professional politicians to see somebody that young with that thin resume. Something on top of the polls for Iowa caucuses is his resume that then I mean. He's a veteran he. He is an elected official. He speaks like more languages than your average American. Is He unqualified. It's an impressive resume right. I mean if you were talking about a candidate for statewide run right. If you were talking about governor or senator. You'd say this is great. This is a young guy with a great resume for somebody in his mid thirties right. I've I've got more experience in government than the president of the United States got more years of executive experience the vice president and I have more military experience than anybody. Who's right I behind that desk? Since George H W Bush I get that. It's not a conventional background. I don't think this is a time for conventional backgrounds in Washington right now but as a resume for president bent. It's very unusual. I mean south. Bend Indiana is a small city is the fourth largest city in Indiana and the idea of making the leap from there to the the presidency with nothing in between is very unusual. Trump has obviously changed the world of the game but to people who've made careers in politics. Right Amy. Klobuchar was has district attorney. And now she's been senator for a long time and now she's running for president and there's this guy who has been mayor of a city of one hundred thousand people and now he's like I'm I'm going to be president and it rubs a lot of people the wrong way. What does he actually running on? You know he early on made a big deal out of political reform. He talked a lot about the importance of changing the filibuster of looking at changing how the judicial system works and it really emphasizing the need to democratize the political process will first of all. We've got to repair our democracy. The Electoral Toro College needs to go. Because it's made our society less and less democratic than on policy substance he's offering. What would have been considered a very progressive agenda agenda ten years ago but looks moderate today? And that's a big sort of public option plan. He calls it Medicare for all who wanted to increase funding for college and other educational subsidies. He's he's got a sort of What he calls? Douglas Plan for Black America. It's addresses red lining a lot of issues like that. It's not shocking stuff righty. He's very very much from the center of the Democratic Party today. What was distinctive about him in his early presentation was really that emphasis on political reform? which he he has emphasized a little bit less more recently and instead has drawn the contrast on healthcare with Sanderson born just for the fun of it? How do you think someone like mayor p might match up against someone like president trump in the general election? I think in some ways. He cuts an appealing contrast with trump. Right he's young. He actually served in the military. He's like physically vigorous sky against oldster. He's very good very quick on his feet. You know good at answering extemporaneous questions. He seems knowledgeable in a way. That trump isn't at the same time you know if you're thinking about trump's key electoral wins with white working class voters in the northern Midwest. Buddha judge you know. He will emphasize his mid western ties. And the fact that South Bend is a post industrial city. But really. He's the mayor of college town right and his whole biography is is in sort of elite professional circles. Right Harvard McKenzie. He goes back to his hometown. Abbott didn't grow up there because his dad was a retired auto worker. His Dad was a college professor. Sir and you've got to wonder. Does Pete have the connection with the right kind of voters to come and win. He's very weak in the primary with African Americans. And he doesn't seem to have the persona sort of get those white working class obama-trump switchers. At least that would be my concern about him more than you know Kinney Goto verbally with Donald Trump. I think absolutely that being said he is doing well in Iowa with a lot of middle class voters in the early states where he's advertised. He's doing doing very very well in national polls he does well with sort of white college graduates that sort of his core base of support. So so you know that works in an Iowa Caucus it works. Potentially in the New Hampshire primary and the question for him is going to be. Can he broaden that base of support right. If he wins in Iowa he he will get a surge of positive coverage that should give him a boost elsewhere. But how big of a boost and in particular can he make any kind of headway with African American voters because you see polls like of South Carolina where he's getting zero percent to the black vote and that's not a winning strategy in a Democratic primary that being said he's come a long way he's doing well on Iowa which is like what two and a half months away at this point. Is there a chance that you know a a surge in Iowa could mean that mayor Pete's going to be a lot more prominent player in this race. You never want a discount. The Guy who's leading in the early states that that's a big deal. It means something means other candidates will go after him. You know at the same time to keep it in perspective right but you really have. Here's a fascinating story. This guy. Nobody had heard of this small city mayor. Getting into the conversation is much more interesting than the former vice president kind of hanging out at thirty percent for months but still eight percent is not thirty percent. Joe Biden is the guy who's in first place he's been and in first place warring and Sanders are nipping at his heels. Pitas way behind gripe the odds of him. Winning still seem pretty low to me but it is the most interesting adding political story by now was how has this gone from nowhere to somewhere but then the question is can he go from somewhere to actually winning. That's a very uphill battle. Uh Matthew yglesias writes about politics here box. I'm Sean Rotherham Room. This is today. explained a no tall. The side. Hustler's out there you can make your side-hustle your main hustle with your main chimp mail chimp. I'll let you know where that name came from as soon as I find out. Mail chimp offers an all in one marketing platform. That has everything you need all all in one place to give your new business the strongest start with just the right marketing and you can find it at just one website. MAIL CHIMP DOT COM.
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The film is a New New York Times critic's pick that. They hailed as mesmerizing and tender. The disappearance of my mother is available on all major digital platforms including breaker dot IL. Can you explain Zack. Each inbox. We were all sitting here in the newsroom last night expecting some results from Iowa was that our first mistake. I think we're being pretty reasonable last night when we were all yelling at the television in some cases quite literally cough cough negotiates cough cough. We had expected results at that point reasonably based on every prior Iowa Caucus. Right right you don't normally take until well into the next day to count and at the time we're taping this we I still don't have a result and this is like Tuesday afternoon. Yeah so like by all precedent. This makes no sense so what went wrong last night when it comes to the actual source of the errors. It's actually not fully clear. What went wrong so I will give you two theories one of which seems obviously true but disputed by the Iowa Democratic Party and the other one is with the Iowa? Democratic Party's official line is but we're not sure if it's true so the disputed version is that there was a problem with the APP itself basic functionality. The APP is a new thing. The Iowa Democratic Party was using to calculate and send in results and it was developed by this firm called and I am not making this stop it called shadow perfect And nobody had heard of it before in major public life but is very new APP. Development started around two months ago and and there are lots of reports from people on the ground in Iowa including precinct captains. Who are in charge of doing this reporting that? They couldn't download the APP that they couldn't get it to work. Couldn't get it open can get to send results. The backup plan was to just call in the results. Manually Sean Sebastian's joining us right now. From Story County is a precinct secretary out there. What can you tell us about this delay in getting any results show wolf? I have been on hold for over an hour with the Iowa. The Democratic Party The captain got held up for an hour on hold and then he was talking to CNN when he got off hold and when he tried to switch they hung up on empire. What are you hearing? I know you're listening to conversation from the Iowa Democratic Party. This is a real coincidence. Incidence Wolf I just got off hold just now so I've got to get off the phone to report the results. Go ahead report. Can we listened in as your report. Them Sean Yup. Yep Okay Hi Hello. They hung up on me. They hung up on me okay. The Democratic Party says that the APPS basic functionality was not the problem they say the problem is that some combination of the APP and the precinct captains themselves were not doing the calculation of the final vote tally correctly. And this is a little bit complicated right so so there were some rule changes that were kind of confusing people last night. What exactly changed? Basically the Iowa Democratic Party for the first time said they'd be sending out three different results of the caucus and releasing them publicly. The first one is is the first alignment sort of where people were standing who they wanted to vote for it I in the little physical caucus room. Okay second result is the second alignment which is what happens after people get to choose based on who got eliminated the first time around. Because they're coming into their conversing so their their minds are going to change right. Okay and they're also can get eliminated inbetween alignments. If they didn't in their area get get over fifteen percent. Okay so if I went into caucus for Joe Biden Biden only got thirteen percent. Then I would be free to go pick. I don't know whoever else I wanted Ed. So that was the second thing. But then there's the third and I think most important result which is the delegate hall And there's a formula that converts verts in different precincts. The second alignment into this Delegate Count How many delegates you get from winning this particular area. This is all math. Laugh yes it's all. It's all math. Big Cuba Yang hat according to the Democratic Party there were some weird discrepancies in these three. The numbers they just weren't matching up in the way they were supposed to okay and so they some statement suggested that this was user error. Some statements suggested that this was like a problem with the APPs tabulation. It's still Kinda Paik. Okay two theories one. The new APP was crap. The Iowa Democratic Party certainly isn't co-signing that theory too that I will like people couldn't handle the new rules correct but either way the combination. The APP and the rule changes really spell disaster here. Did anyone see this coming. There were reports coming up in the weeks and day before saying that the APP was experiencing some problems but a lot of them were focused on cybersecurity that the APP was not well vetted or tested by cybersecurity security experts and that they're vulnerable to a hack okay but nobody had any idea that it would be this bad also. Nobody had any idea That their backup plan of these phone lines would be so broken. You'd think it would be really easy to just call and be like hey in my precinct here are the three different numbers like a good good back-up plan. Yeah but for whatever reason I would democratic party completely screwed it up and the calls weren't coming ineffectively and so in the absence of an effective APP and effective backup system. We just have complete chaos. Why we're all these changes implemented in the first place? Did something go so badly wrong long in two thousand sixteen that they needed an APP plus a bunch of rule changes not so badly wrong with there've been longstanding complaints about inefficiency in an unfairness of the caucus is for a lot of reason and last time around the sanders campaign in particular was unhappy with the way that the process treated them and they had long been arguing that the process us was was sort of unfairly stacked in Hillary Clinton's favor and so these transparency efforts. I think we're in part a response to that critique. So what is the latest from the Iowa Democratic Party. Everyone thinks the Iowa Democratic Party screwed up royally except according to their own press statements. The Iowa Democratic Party Classic this is from the Democratic Party. Communications Director Mandy McCloy already. This is our first official explanation from the reading. The integrity of the the results is paramount. We have experienced a delay in results due to quality checks and the fact that the Democratic Party is reporting three data sets. It's for the first time what we know right now. Is that around twenty five percent of precincts have reported and early data indicates turn out is on pace for twenty twenty sixteen. Where did this mess leave the candidates in this race? It left the candidates trying to spin whatever happened in their favor based on the preliminary results of their campaign has been able to tabulate and they've been able to get access to and so what you've got. Is Buddha judge declaring victory. We know by the time it's all said None Iowa you have shock in the nation you have the Biden campaign saying that this was an absurd outcome because it seemed like they did relatively poorly credit forties. He's working and get this results getting string. And I WANNA make sure they're very carefully deliberations you have the Sanders Campaign Billing this as going well for them but not being as definitive. Have a good feeling. We're going to be doing very very well and the Warren campaign taking more neutral line is tell cost to call so. I'm just going to tell you what I do. Know you are the Horn a minute Zach unto they explained There's really no middle ground. When it comes to flowers on Valentine's Day either the bouquet ordered? I Lucky Valentine is great with large vibrant roses. or it's just don't get stuck with man this Valentine's Day trust the experts at one eight hundred flowers dot com. They're affordable rose bouquets. Have the biggest and brightest flowers. You'll find anywhere and right now. They've got an amazing deal. Going on you can get there. Eighteen stem enchanted rose medley for just twenty nine ninety nine. And if you really WANNA throw down for just twenty dollars more. They'll double the roses. 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Co Hello Pete was the only candidate to really come out and declare victory last night but everyone was trying to sort of spin the results in their favor. Who did this delay in Iowa really benefit? And who did it really hurt. We've been talking about the four leading candidates Right Buddha Judge Biden Warren Sanders I o all of a significant. All of them it was. I would say most significant to Buddha judge who really invested in the state and had not been doing well in the not especially white states aides later down the calendar and needed to do well in the state was demographically very favourable for him so it really mattered for him and unsurprisingly he was the one who came out and declared A. Ah shocker there Sanders also wants to win early because he needs to develop a sense of momentum to fully displace Biden because like Buddha judge. He's not doing as well in Nevada and South Carolina as he has in New Hampshire and Iowa. The two earlier states wore needed a strong showing to show she has an out of it and for Biden. It was the least important because he's been doing well in these later states but a really really bad showing crater his support which people have been warning has been soft the whole time. It has not seemed true. Because he's been leading the polls for so long but if he really cratered in Iowa. It's possible this could become a self-fulfilling l.. Fulfilling prophecy so those are the four people. It's all important to them to varying degrees and now everyone's off to the next one. Their fight right. Now is New Hampshire and New Hampshire. Now is much more important than it was previously. which kinda crazy thing to say because it was already very important? Iowa matters a lot not because of its delegate count which is pretty low but because of its role in setting media and donor expectations. If you do well in Leioa you can sort of start bandwagon and people get to support you and other places because you look plausible likewise you get a lot of favorable media coverage which gets you more attention more donors owners Cetera but in the absence of declared results in Iowa. Nobody's getting these benefits. Nobody's getting this narrative momentum that they wanted to get the night of and plus we have a bunch of news this week coming up including The state of the Union Democratic debate which could end up overshadowing feeling. We're at least somewhat displacing. The Iowa results which means the New Hampshire campaign will kind of become the first meaningful media narrative primary. Not entirely again. 'cause I will result will come out at one point and those will matter. The delay has has sort of screwed up the timeframe that the media needed. He did and that candidates needed to take advantage of whatever happened in Iowa. Is there any chance of something like what happened in Iowa could happen in New Hampshire. Did they just change you. Bunch rules and introduce a funky APP. Not that I'm aware of And it's a primary not a caucus so it's relatively straightforward. It's standard electoral counting. Right people vote and then the vote tallies go in and then that determines who gets what is anyone going to trust. Trust Iowa to lead the pack. I mean we talked to our colleague Lezo on the show on Monday about how there's already this momentum behind changing the primary reprocess not letting Iowa go first because it's not really representative of the rest of the country now that everyone saw them flipping coins and punting the results and having this APP APPs. SNAFU is it all but sure that I was going to be reexamined as the leader of this process. I think the party would be Just totally irresponsible. If they didn't right there were always good reasons to move Iowa out of the slot. It's absurd that a state that has such a white electorate in the Democratic Party which is incredibly incredibly diverse nationally. That you'd go first and Lee has good piece to that effect on. Vox Dot Com. But it's not just that the caucus system itself is Biased in predictable ways. So for example You have to show I don a Monday. What if you're a working parent who can't afford childcare? What if you're you're disabled? A lot of the facilities don't have good accessibility mechanisms. There are all sorts of reasons why this system is biased us towards a very small number of people but if Iowans are stubborn about this they should not have this much influence over the national political environments beyond. Just the you know obvious inconvenience to the candidates to the Democratic Party with these delays. I wonder just how bad this looks for our our democracy right now that the very first thing in this election got bungled. I mean especially recovering from an election where we have confirmed armed Russian interference in our presidential election. Yeah can't overstate how bad it is from that point of view. The the campaigns didn't help matters so the way that that elections work the democracy at a really basic level is that you have public faith in the process and that displeases any sense that your opponents one unfairly right in other countries where they don't have faith in their democratic process. You end up getting results contested and that often leads into actual conflict because people don't don't believe that the other side has a fair claim to leadership and they're willing to dispute that claim using force. I'm not suggesting we're close to that. In the United States. I'm just using that. To underline align the theory as to why the legitimacy of elections is so important and what happens in the worst case when he gets compromised and here we not only have the legitimacy obviously compromised An official statement and a Biden spokesperson have said that there are serious questions about what's going on and that there's reasons to be concerned about the Outcome Buddha judge declaring victory created some significant conspiracy theories online and so this idea that the APP is causing problems. uh-huh Buddha judges declaring victory when nobody knows what's happening but it looks like Bernie may have. Actually one has led a lot of burning people on twitter to say this is outrageous this APP rigged it and fever of Buddha judge of evidence for that but the fact that he is so aggressively setting expectations added a lot of fuel fuel to that fire The number one hashtag nationwide in the United States on twitter was mayor cheat and it illustrated how little faith there was after the results of last night among lots of people in the outcome. And that's the kind of body blow to the democratic legitimacy of an election. That's difficult to recover from because once that trust is lost it's difficult to gain back that sort of in the nature of of trust itself. Do we have the trust. The company called Shadow. That was very dumb just just very dumb on so many levels at least change the name before we make the APP together. Can you hire early light of day INC or like we're honest. I mean there's just so many other things they could have called it trustworthy. I don't know if you call it trustworthy. I feel like it has extreme. Lots of questions that are already answered by this t shirt vibes to it. Shadow had to be amongst the the worst neighbors house. Real bad. Just real bad. Is anyone going to trust these when they actually come out whenever that is Halloween thanksgiving You know yeah. Yeah when they're released on the eve of the next Olympics. I think people will have good reason to trust them. I I really don't think that there's a all conspiracy theories aside any reason to believe that the Iowa Democratic Party is is rigging this election in one way or another or that their incompetence will like irretrievably. Screw up the basic results. I think they'll be a very long paper trail trail that one can use to confirm that the Tallis end up being accurate. I think the issue is that people will will will not believe it. It's weird you have to hold these two ideas together in your hat the same time both at the process was totally mismanaged. And also no that the end result of it though it's delayed and though there were lots of regularities has really good reasons to be seen as trustworthy but we do need to hold both of those ideas in our head at the same time one thing seems sure to me that this probably helped donald trump more than anyone else. Oh Yeah. Trump campaign is loving us. Both of the president's this large adult sons Donald trump junior and eric have tweeted that the processes rigged his campaign manager. Brad parcel also suggested it was rigged first of all. They're trying to obviously stoke divisions inside the Democratic Party trump has done this before he thinks he can weaponize the team Bernie anti-establishment sentiment against the party itself off. I don't think Bernie fans really take trump seriously on this point but he's certainly trying to make these things worse seconds. You know the more infighting there is among Democrats rats. Even if trump isn't stoking it the better things are for the trump campaign and today they got their best Gallup result in some time if he was like a forty nine percent approval rating. Is there anything the Democrats can do in the coming weeks to sort of band together and support each other through this mess or is that unlikely. Considering that the competition's getting you know as as thick as it's been the best thing Democrats can. Do going through is a hold elections. They don't do this have fair. Transparent open non irregular processes and conventionally the Iowa staff will will be displaced by a narrative of an actual real campaign. But that's the best thing that they can do is make sure that everything's airtight. Your type in the upcoming states. Another screw up like this. I don't even want to speculate just happened. That could be ZAC. Beecham is a senior correspondent at Vox. He also so is one of the hosts of our worldly podcast. I'm Sean Rotherham. This is today explained
Impeachment TV: Mr. Sondland Goes to Washington
"The show is about to start a moment but I just want to tell you about another show I. It's called bad with money. It's a podcast. Where New York Times bestselling author comedian? Gabby done breaks down. Everything about money and our complicated relationship with it on bad with money gabby talks to journalists activists and everyday people about everything from universal basic income to student loan debt to weed the season Gaby is going international. The show how Americans talk about money and how money is valued by people in countries and cultures around the world. The all new season of bad with money is out now. If you are bad with money you should go check it out or if you're good with money to maybe you'll learn something in your podcast APP and subscribe so you never miss stories about people being bad with money you create a Ukrainian. You know this whole Oh. You Crane. Explained things started with this scandal. On September. Twenty third son of a Biden was the blower in the intelligence community sparked a a political scandal involving president trump. The president of the United States wanted dirt on his political rival another country to dig it up for him the very next day. September twenty Fourth Democratic Speaker of the House. Nancy Pelosi called for an impeachment inquiry of the president in short order. We got the so-called transcript. We got the the whistleblower complaint. We got piece after piece of a puzzle that featured more names more texts more phone calls but it wasn't until last week that this impeachment inquiry it became a public facing televised event and the event of this event. The one that everyone has been waiting for today's testimony of EU ambassador. Asadollah Gordon Silent. Today we devote our entire show to his televise testimony and what it means for the story. There are so many characters in this story. Taylor Kent Ivanovich Williams Vinson Volker Morrison. But it's Sunland who was on the phone with the president while nudging urging Ukraine our show today in three acts. Mr Sunland goes to Washington from WWLTV Washington. It's Today explained explained. I'm Sean Romney's firm. Stay with us at one third AMIGO. We'll go one former special envoy to Ukraine. Kurt Volker me go to energy secretary. Rick Perry Amigo Three Ambassador to the E. See You Gordon Sunland Amigo Qatar. Say Andrew procup. He takes it from here. Sunland is a luxury hotel magnate and and he's been a longtime Republican donor. I expect that few Americans have heard my name before these events so before I begin my substantive testimony Moni please let me share some of my personal background. What seems to have happened? Is that around. Twenty Sixteen sunland wanted a to upgrade his status sunland decided to donate a million dollars to trump's inauguration committee and he was rewarded awarded for this by being nominated by trump to be the US ambassador to the European Union and assumed that post in twenty eighteen. How does he go from being ambassador to the EU to getting involved in Ukraine sideline claims that Ukraine was always part of his mandate? But what really seems to have happened. Is that after the most recent. US Ambassador to Ukraine. Maria Vich who testified last week in the inquiry was ousted from her post. Sunland took on a rather outsized role in. US diplomacy toward Ukraine crane. And he did so alongside two other people. Kurt Volker who testified on Tuesday and Rick. Perry the Secretary of Energy and Sunland John Lynch famously named them. The three Amigos House. Did you know you're part of the three Amigos goes I am. I'm a proud part of the three Amigos Volker. His fellow Amigo turned over an extensive set of text messages related to communications communications within about Ukraine throughout twenty nineteen and in these texts. Sunlen plays a starring role. He is often the the one who is most blatantly pushing for a quid pro quo with Ukraine. The texts made clear. That sunland was a lot more are involved in this than you might think. The ambassador to the European Union would be so Democrats were really eager to hear what he had to say when he went behind closed doors in October. So what did he initially say behind closed doors. His initial story was that it was mainly because of Rudy Giuliani. That samland himself had little role and he was also vague on the topic of weather that military aid to Ukraine was being linked to this. Push as well so the problem for Saad. Lynn is that other witnesses notably Bill Taylor. Also National Security Council staffer to Marson. went on to testify defy within weeks. That seemed to be a lot more heavily involved in all of this then he was fully explaining and is this when he starts to sort roll back his initial testimony. Yes so after the other witnesses testify sandline made the rather unusual move of submitting being an addendum. He said that actually he now does recall that on September first. He told a top adviser to the Ukrainian president that they probably wouldn't get their military aid unless they agreed to the investigations. Trump wanted. What's going on when he's rolling this back? Is he afraid of being caught in the perjury situation. Going to jail. Maybe Simelane was definitely the witness. That Democrats had the most doubts about his credibility because has his testimony seemed to conflict so much with that of other witnesses and documents and this is sworn testimony so yes onlin really would be risking a possible criminal criminal prosecution and he may have paid attention to the trial of Roger Stone which just wrapped up the longtime trump adviser who was just convicted of of lying to Congress and sworn testimony. The stakes were pretty high for Saad. Lind's testimony in the public setting on Wednesday both because of the doubts about his credibility and because Sunlen is currently the only witness on Democrats Democrats lineup to have had several conversations with president trump. Personally about this topic so everyone was wondering what would Gordon Saad Todd. Let's say The stage is set ambassador ambassador. Gordon Sunland has a seat in front of the cameras. He talks about his early life. His Passion for politics is supportive. Republicans even some Democrats and then he thinks like a soprano that in a minute from WVU ex. And the VOX media podcast network when our program continues Quick note here in the past week today explained. We've talked about isis and and noise and a far right party in Spain. That's actually called. Vox Oxen and the rise of far-right parties across Western Europe and even the world and and certainly impeachment and impeachment and impeachment. We've talked about impeachment a lot but I want to tell you about are sort of cousin. podcast reset it's all about technology and how it's changing our lives. It's from recode and vox and the past week they have talked talked about. SMS texting and how a bunch of people sent texts on like Valentine's Day. Two thousand nine hundred nine but they didn't get delivered until this month and how that caused some some serious consternation for some people who were like no longer in relationships with the people who the texts finally got sent to very complicated and interesting they talked about. Got A big AIRBNB scam. They talked about white. Google has your health records. Google has partnered with one of America's large hospital networks and gained a bunch of access assed millions of health records. Does that freak you out. If so listen to reset right now from recode and vox check it out wherever you listen to your podcasts. They cover for other things than the impeachment inquiry. Is this Ukrainian life. I'm Sean Ramos firm each our show. Of course we do an episode about the news bring you all sorts of sounds about that new songs archival audio interviews. Today's Today's show Mr Sandland goes to Washington. We are breaking down the long awaited testimony from the EU ambassador. We've now arrived at to act to song of Samland and no one really knew what he would say what he plead the fifth. Would he contradict his prior testimony. Would he reveal new information. Our story continues with boxes. Andrew Andrew procup Andrew. How did ambassador Sunland Open up today? So Sandline Gay testimony. That was very bad to the Republican. Defenses of this overall. He said that there was absolutely a quid. Pro Quo involving a White House meeting being withheld from the Ukrainians until they committed to investigations. He said that he was following. The president's orders in talking to Rudy Giuliani. About all this and helping try to get the Ukrainians to go along with. What Giuliani was pushing and he really really really wanted to make clear that this was not just him? Gordon solid that there was lots of involvement from others in the trump administration the station from the State Department to the White House to the vice president's office so he was basically throwing everyone under the bus. Okay let's talk about everyone who got run over one by one. Starting with Giuliani. So sunland said that he and the other Amigos worked with Giuliani on Ukraine matters at the express direction of the president and we did not want to work with Mr Giuliani simply put. We were playing the hand we were dealt. We all understood that if we refuse to work with Mr Giuliani we would lose a very the important opportunity to cement relations between the United States and Ukraine. So we followed the president's orders and and he also explained that Mr Giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House. Visit for presidents Alinsky. Mr Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of the two thousand sixteen election. DNC Server and worry SMA. Mr Giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the United States. And we knew the investigations were important to the president so as we already knew. Giuliani is key to all this and Sunland is saying. I didn't want how to work with this guy but basically had to after. He made it clear that he was not a big fan of Giuliani nor his later work he moved onto Mike Pompeo and the State Department one. You have to say about the State Department's involvement in Ukraine so sunland wanted to make clear that he regularly updated secretary very of state pompeo and advisers close to Palm Peyot on what he was telling the Ukrainians that he was really trying to get president's. Alinsky you to commit to these investigations and Sunlen brought receipts. He read out quotes from emails. He sent to Pompeo and pompey's aids aids these emails show that the leadership of the State Department. The National Security Council and the White House were all informed learned about the Ukraine efforts for May twenty third two thousand nineteen until the security aide was released on September eleventh. The two thousand and nine thousand nine hundred and we should note here. That pompeo was actually on the phone. Call Between Trump Dolinsky on July twenty fifth when when trump himself made these same demands twos Alinsky and framed it as investigating the Biden's so pompeo new with this was all about and Sunlen presented did a good deal of evidence suggesting that his involvement was deeper than we previously knew and this is significant because this house impeachment inquiry isn't going to hear from Secretary of State. Mike Pompeo. Yeah yes so. While a host of State Department officials have shown up to testify. Complying with subpoenas POMPEO has not agreed to testify and more than that he has decreed that the State Department should not hand over any documents to the house house impeachment inquiry and after Sunlen testimony. Today that looks a whole lot more like it could be something like obstruction rather than just the ordinary political stonewalling. It seems that Pompeo may not want to hand over evidence that relates to his own personal knowledge of of what was happening here. Where did go once? He was done with Giuliani and pompeo. So the Sunland bus made a brief stop over. Ver- White House Acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney but the bus made a particularly interesting stop after that when he went over Vice President Mike Pence Sandland explained that on September. First when he and Mike Pence were both in Warsaw and had a meeting with Zilenski. Simon said that before the meeting. He told pants that he was worried. That trump was holding up the security assistance unless Ukraine committed to the investigations. And he said that pence kind kind of nodded in response. But did it really engage much with the topic and the Democratic Questioner Attorney. Daniel Goldman said and vice president. Pence just nodded his head again. I don't recall any exchange or where he asked me any questions I think he was sort of a duly noted. Well he didn't say Gordon. What are you talking about? He did not it. Didn't say what investigations he did. Not so again. This speaks to the broader point. That saw was trying to express. which is that everyone's in the loop that this was not the the freelancing of one ambassador and perhaps the president's lawyer Rudy Giuliani but that people at the highest levels of the administration in the State Department in the National Security Council in the vice president's office in the White House they'll knew about this and they were all going along with it and that of course means that president trump knew about it? Silence Treatment of president trump is a bit more complicated in my view. Sunland claimed that trump never directly told him that the hold up in military aid for Ukraine was linked to the the demand for investigations. Rather sunland continued to insist that this is something he just presumed that as Daniel Goldman the Democratic Questioner. Put it that. It was something that he figured out sort of logically. Like a math problem problem. And you you understood. Ukrainians received no credible explanation. Is that right. I certainly didn't couldn't give them one. So this is this kind of a two plus two equals four and he kept returning to that metaphor. This was not something trump told him it was rather something that became very clear to him him something that seemed obvious so he did not present the smoking gun of president. Trump told me me that he was withholding the military aid for Ukraine unless they did the investigations rather it was something that was unspoken by the president in his telling and after you get Giuliani and Pompeo and Mulvaney and pens and trump. I guess there's no where else to go but rocky. Yeah what triggered. My memory was someone's reference to a sap rocky mentioned Asef Rocky then all of a sudden it came back to me. The whole thing sort of came back to me and Shinde sap rocky. I was talking time rocky. Smoking while I'm strolling down roost. ooh Yes so this related to another phone call between San Linden trump. That sound Lennon initially did not recall but that another witness has now testified to overhearing and this occurred on July twenty sixth in restaurant in Keiv and soundlink online called trump. The other way this this call testified that sunlit told trump. It hadn't worked out free sap rocky just yet but you can tell the card fashions you tried in the end up rocky was in fact released and returned to the US about a week later which meant that is at rocky. He was freed about a month before the military aid for Ukraine was freed long live as Apparati. Rip PM's came. I say for the fans. Aw We've arrived at the third and Final Act of our show. It's been a journey. We've been at it since September almost completely the whole time with one guy you know who senior correspondent at. Vox Act three the the final act quid pro cup. So the funny part was that when Devin newness gave his opening statement he talked a lot about how this this is a carefully orchestrated media smear campaign but then things took a turn with Sahib's opening statement and the Republicans it can seem to have realized that his testimony was not so friendly to trump after all so the GOP decided to shift gears and in the end they we're the ones trying to really attack solid so republicans had to come up with this plan on the spot because they had no idea whether the sunlen testimony would go their way or not. Was it effective. They did come up with some aspects of what Sandra said that were somewhat helpful to them for instance since sidelines saying that he only presumed that trump was linking the military aid to the investigations but overall all the bigger picture is that this was not good testimony for Republicans and for president trump and the president was watching along taking notes in giant Black Sharpie. He brought them outside to the South Lawn to address the press under helicopter. What did he have to say? So trump picked out just one piece of what Sunland said that he thought was helpful to him toward the end of the saga on September. Ninth Sunland says he called trump and it was a very short abrupt conversation. He was not in a good mood so he's going. What do you want? What do you want to hear all these years is what you want right? And according to Saad land trump responded. I want nothing I want. Nothing nothing I want no quid pro quo. Well how do the right thing. Trump seem to think that this gets him off the hook even though it comes very late in the process it comes. After months of quid pro quo demands on the Ukrainians. And it happened. Just as news of the scandal was threatening threatening to get out so it's unclear how much of an exoneration it really is. But at least in this one instance silence says is that trump said he wanted no quid pro quo andrew. It occurs to me as this public facing impeachment inquiry the televised testimonies wind down this week. That that this is probably the most engaged. The country's been in our national politics since the hearings of Brad Kavanagh and who knows maybe the most engaged. We'll all be until the two thousand election. How did American democracy look up there on the TV over the course of the past two weeks you know? It's bidden hidden encouraging in some respects despite the polarization and dysfunction in our politics impeachment. Investigators here have managed to shake loose a lot of useful and relevant factual information. And I think that is kind of the takeaway here here that you know the executive branch is not simply one monolith. That's defending president trump. That there are people working there who who are willing to speak up when they see something that they feel is wrong or even if they don't think it's wrong that are willing to provide information Russian and testimony about what they know. Despite the efforts on the part of the president to obstruct what's and impede this inquiry it has resulted in genuine information. And revelations and it's been good for informing the public overall about just what their president has been up to full andrew pro. Thank you for being our guide through this saga that is Ukraine explained. It's been my pleasure. Our Program Camp was produced today by McCarthy Hassenfeld with me Ulema Shah and Domino Assadi. Our executive producer is Irene. Noguchi or engineer is a theme Shapiro. Our our fact Checker is Olympia. Extreme and our music consultant is the mysterious brake master cylinder. Special thanks this week to ball cells professor of government at Georgetown University in Washington. DC Lie contributed to our episode on Spain. That ran earlier this week. Our email today explained at. Vox Dot Com our twitter today. Underscore explained and today explained is produced in association with Stitcher. Vox Media Podcast Network Management Oversight for our program by our boss. Mr Ezra Klein who has never publicly acknowledged his early hip hop work as client Yaohua triggered. My memory was someone's reference to asap. Rocky I'm Sean Rotherham back tomorrow with another explanation of today thanks.
A brutal new law in Brunei
"Great news, everyone support for this episode of today explained comes from quip electric toothbrushes the coupe charts just twenty five dollars. And if you go to get quip dot com slash explained right now. You're I refill pack is free with your purchase of a quip electric toothbrush. That website. Once more is G E T Q U I P dot com slash explained. Gen williams. You're one of the hosts of the worldly podcast at vox. Why are so many celebrities mad at Brunei right now? So Br Niners enacted a series of really super harsh repressive laws. They're based on a really radical interpretation of Slavic law sharia, and basically they say that gay people can be stoned to death for having sex. So it's not just that. That's the big one. Also people who commit adultery can be killed by stoning. And then for theft on your first offense, if you're caught stealing they cut off your hand. Where did this package of laws? Come from wise being gay and cheating on your spouse and being a thief being lumped together in this really sort of scary way. So as part of this broader push that, the sultanate Brunei has been instituting starting basically in twenty fourteen before then the country's legal code was based on English common law. So they were colonized they only recently got independence in the nineteen eighties since getting independence, they've been kind of shifting more and more toward becoming more Muslim or Islamic in general and then a twenty fourteen the Sultan decided to begin implementing the sharia based penal code, but includes punishments such as amputation and death now before this time. Yeah, these kind of parallel legal systems, right? So for criminal law like if you get caught stealing running a red light that was the common law that was the secular law for family law. So things like divorce adoptions adultery. That was sharia right, but there weren't criminal penalties. Now, they're taking that and they're taking the Islamic sharia law, basically and making the whole kind of legal system in line with their interpretation of sharia and do people actually get stoned to death in Brunei. So they haven't executed anyone in years. It's a pretty high bar for evidence. So you have to have like several witnesses. It'll be Muslim. And you know, we're talking about things like adultery and homosexual relations like that's not necessarily something that's going to be happening with like a whole bunch of witnesses. This is brand new. So we don't know for sure like how can actually play out. Tell me a little bit more about Brunei Brunei is this really teeny tiny little country in southeast Asia, borders, Malaysia, it's over kind of near Indonesia and the Philippines. It's really small though. We're talking a little more than four hundred and fifty thousand people that's smaller than the population of Washington, DC, geography wise, small domestic Delaware, but super rich thanks to huge oil and natural gas exports, and it's all run by one guy. This Soltan who has been in power for over fifty years. His name Sultan, Hassanal Bolkiah. He's the one that is driving this push for this new legal code. What's the country's relationship with this Lum? The country is like about two-thirds Muslim Islam as the official religion. It's also in a region that is also Muslims. So you have Malaysia Indonesia nearby. It also has really close ties to some of the more influential countries in the Persian Gulf so Saudi Arabia in particular, the first time that they announced this. This legal code in two thousand fourteen in Brunei King Solomon came for the first time in a really long time and went to Brunei visited so it was kind of this stamp of approval from this like really influential Islamic country in the Middle East. You mentioned that the country's only two thirds Muslim. Do we have any idea? What it's like to be gay in Brunei, whether you're Muslim or not being gay in Brunei, you art what I mean by that is humane be gay. But you're not going to act on it. You're not going to portray yourself as you're not going to say that you're gay. You're not going to be caught doing that. Because even before these laws. It wasn't that LGBT laws were like super liberal at all of a sudden, they're not like it was not. Okay. So as anyone in the country, speaking out about this law, not really because you can't there's complete control over like, the press over free speech communications are monitored by the government. So like, Email communications social media. Like, literally everything you do is watched. Is monitored. And nobody's gonna risk speaking out. I was watching a really great documentary on this recently. And they were interviewing this driver. Who was like, look, you know, I love my country. Able very well. Yes, is very this is the best place ever, which you know, you expect to hear that from a cabdriver, then they asked him like would you want your daughter or your son to be stoned to death for adultery? What if you was to grow up in heaven? Kitschy die for that. That I can't roll punishment is punishment and punishment. It's been recently called the ground. So we have to follow them. Just that disconnected lake. Wow. Okay. You know, maybe that does believe that. Maybe he does it because he's on camera and representing the country. So like, of course, you have to say that. So there's no way to speak out. So that's why people outside of the country are speaking out like Human Rights Watch like celebrities. So you have George Clooney, and Ellen Degeneres and Elton John actor, George Clooney is taking aim at the sultan's twenty billion dollar fortune hauling for a boycott, he writes, we're putting money directly into the pockets of men who choose to stone and whipped to death their own citizens for being gay. So the Sultan owns a ton of really fancy high class hotels around the world, which ones do we know? Yeah. These are some of the most exclusive in the world Dorchester collection. So basically, like Beverly Hills hotel hotel Bel-Air hotel Plaza Athenee in Paris Dorchester in London, we're talking like swanky high end hotels, and so they celebrities are speaking out and saying we're not going to patronize hotels until you change this law, which is like creatine theory, except that for the average person I can be like, oh, I'm totally boycotting the Beverly Hills hotel that I could never afford to go to anyway. So well, it's good. They're speaking out. It's not exactly the most effective protest. So does that mean, it's not really gonna work? Yeah. I mean, this is definitely not gonna do anything. In back in twenty fourteen. And they I kind of announced this George Clooney and other people did the same thing. They spoke out they protested. They boycotted hotels and nothing changed. So the George Clooney go back to staying at the Beverly Hills hotel. I don't now I haven't been tracking carefully his hotel stays for. So he can work for a while people boycotted the hotels, but then it kind of got out of the news and people for the most part kept going to these hotels, obviously. 'cause they're still there a new George Clooney and Elton John and owned the jenner's probably aren't super tight with like say the president, but have any powerful politicians spoken out about this policy. So President Trump himself hasn't said anything that I'm aware of but the US State Department did they should a statement saying that Brunei's penal code runs counter to international human rights shins. So they definitely condemned it, they said all governments have an obligation. To ensure that all people can freely. Enjoy universal human rights and fundamental freedoms. Now, President Trump hasn't tweeted about it. So I'm not sure if he's even aware of it is into hotels, though, he is into hotels, and he does a lot of Fox News. And I'm sure the Fox News is covering this probably pretty heavily because they're not a big fan of sharia. This whole thing is about sharia. But it turns out the guy who runs Brunei. Might not actually be that into it. That's next on today explained. People like to tweet their toothbrush purchases at me. It's aspect of this job. I didn't really expect this weekend. One Chris Furness tweeted at me, so at Ginny juice got the whole family quipped toothbrushes, I blame at Rama's firm. Sorry. You're welcome. What I'm told is that the quip electric toothbrush has sensitive sonic by brations. It's gentle on the whole family's dumps. It's got Filton two minute timer that pulses every thirty seconds to remind the whole family when to switch sides in guide you to a full and even clean, and I'm told that the quip electric toothbrush doesn't require a clunky. Charger for the whole family four times over whatever it is. There's lots of reasons to like the quip it's backed by over twenty thousand dental professionals, and it starts just twenty five dollars at get quip dot com slash explained. Right now, you go there. Your first Pac refills is free GT Q IP dot com slash splint. Talk a little bit more about Brunei's relationship with this Lamin shrill. But I thought maybe before we do that we should talk more about Sultan of Brunei who is this guy. Yes. So Soltan Hassanal Bolkiah. He's seventy two years old. He's basically been in power for over fifty years. He became crown prince at age fifteen and then he became Brunei's twenty ninth Sultan in nineteen sixty eight year after his father abdicated. So this guy has been in power for a really long time, basically. And he's in charge of literally everything in the country. Like, he's prime minister. He's defense minister. He's finance minister foreign minister too much for one person. Yeah. The government's money and your money is all the same thing as you run this entire country is your little personal fiefdom, basically. And we're talking about lots of money. Yeah. He is one of the wealthiest men in the world and he lives like two, which is really crazy when you actually stop and kind of compare his lifestyle to the. Kind of strict ascetic like very conservative Islamic law that they're implementing it's completely at odds. What's his lifestyle? Like. The Sultan has like a harem of young girls that he basically gets from around the world. They have people that go around and do casting calls, essentially like, hey, are you in New York? Are you like a young girl looking to be an actress or model come try out? And they basically say, hey, reflected Brunei, and they're like, oh, that's cool. Six onic and band up being entertainers, which basically means having a lot of sex with the Sultan and his family like his brother, who's also a total playboy somebody's girls are young. Some you know as young as fifteen so we're talking lots of adultery lots of extramarital sex the thing that he just thing that he is literally saying you can't do his brother literally has a yacht that he named tits. Classic. Yeah. And it has two side boats that I'll come out nibble one nipple to the twelve basically so their lifestyle choices. The way they act in the world certainly doesn't look like someone who is devoted to got. Two why pass this law the strict strict law about adultery and gay sex and fever? So again, it goes back to this kind of issue of wanting to look more like a conservative Muslim country trying to bring itself in line with some other really powerful really influential conservative Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia Mazza lot of money to spend around the world and invest in a lot of places, and you know, if you want some investment from Saudi Arabia, I guess the idea here is like maybe we could do this. When you throw we night uppercut than touching on the attainment of blessings from Allah. I want to see his lung teachings in this country, grow stronger and more visible in the country. This system preserves and guarantees the rights of all the people regardless of their race and faith. Plus, there's also this really weird dynamic where the Sultan, you know, is trying to diversify his Connie's. It's not just dependent on oil and natural gas and tourism is one. Of the big branches of that that he's trying to build up. But I mean, it's not like you're going to be a huge tourism hotspot if you're stoning gay people to death, right? But can't always other countries to see right through him. I mean, the nipple in the nipple to and the the tits like does it add up? Yes. So luckily, most of the leaders of all these other Muslim countries are super shitty too. I've personally been in an academic environment been around several young members of the Saudi Royal family. And you know, we're talking guys who are in their late teens early twenties, and they're openly throwing money around and arguing over which country has the best hookers and drinking heavily at bars. And so the benefits if you wanna put it that way of being a Royal in these kinds of countries is that you don't actually have to follow any of the rules. They don't really apply to you. Whereas like all the regular people who don't get a vote who have no say in the PR. Press. No say in their own lives. Their emails again are being read social media everything like that is under control those of the people the laws actually apply to. Do we have any idea what the people of Brunei think of their leadership? No, not really for the most part. It's really hard to get messages out. So we usually hear from ex pats people who have fled and sought asylum in the west speaking out about this. There've been some interviews in the media recently with people from Brunei. Toll to expect that something like this would always come about from the school, Louis, talknet. Sharia law was going to be the law land but ever since streaky, even though the king announced that he was going to put instantly. I never imagined the country you occasionally hear from people inside the country who managed to basically sneak a message out. There was a bisexual man who still in Brunei who spoke to a Washington LGBT, news outlet using what's up the encrypted messaging app. And basically saying look like I'm afraid for my life. I'm afraid for what I'm supposed to do living here with my partner and really spoke to the sheer terror if that and the thing is when you control communications like this when you control people's lives to this degree when you have this kind of like economic and political and security relationship where you basically owned the whole country. There's no place for people to get together and really organized because they're all monitored and watched and they're also raised and taught to believe in the stuff. Right. Just think this is good. And that this is essentially family values, right? Like, this is the way to run a just moral society. Jen, you're Muslim what do you make of this interpretation of sharia when you talk about sharia, it's like his big body of law. There's no one thing that Israel or isn't. So probably the best way to think about is like US constitutional law, for example. Right. So you have this fundamental thing, the US constitution, and then you have all these laws over hundreds of years that have evolved and people interpreting this kind of I think they meant this. No, they meant this and laws change, and they go back and forth. Argue over Cherie is the same way. It's based on the Koran and other sources, and it's over hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years that people have argued back and forth, and there's legal theory, and they're different schools of jurisprudence in this whole big body of argument of law, and you can basically pick and choose different versions of interpretation. So there's no one sharia so when. We'll talk about sharia law like this lawn on Fox News as sharia law Muslims in America want sharia, we decided to launch a special Hannity investigation of find out if American Muslims think that real law should supersede the US constitution. Well, if you ask any average Muslim, do you believe in sharia, they're gonna be like, yeah. Because it just means path for how to live like immoral life, and how to set up a society an immoral just socially just way. But depending on whose interpreting it and what century you're going back to for interpretations. Like any religion, you're going to have stuff that reflects the culture at the times quietly at the time. So they're LGBTQ Muslim groups that are very active, and who were like, no, this is this loan like Muslims can be gay, and you can be gay and be Muslim. This is one very strict interpretation. It just happens to be that the Sultan this guy who runs this whole country as his own personal fiefdom has described to this very specific narrow really fundamentalists really hardcore brutal version of Islam that he's implementing in his country. That means that all these people under his rule, they have to believe in act and live in a way that the Sultan says, so even though he doesn't actually live that way himself. Jim Williams is the foreign editor vox. I'm Sean Rotherham this today explained Thanks to the clip electric toothbrush company for supporting the show today. The quip electric starts at just twenty five dollars. That's like an IMAX movie, but clean teeth. No popcorn. Anyway, you can find it at get quip dot com slash explained. That website is G E T Q IP dot com slash explained.
Madness, Pt. 1: The Sleep Room
"Hey have you heard today explained yet? It's a Daily News. Podcast from box hosted by Sean Rotherham. The show usually covers the day's biggest news politics the environment pop culture sports. You name it right now though. There's really just one story and yet it kind of feels like today has never needed more explaining there are a million angles to this pandemic and today explained has your back. They're covering the science of the pandemic the politics the effects on our economy and our culture. They are taking listeners. Inside prisons and E. R. Rooms answering listener questions. They even made a song and dance to teach people about social distancing which is great today explained. Subscribe in your favorite podcast APP to get new episodes automatically produced by the island at W. B. U. R. Boston. Check CHECK. Check CHECK CHECK ONCE AGAIN. Ameri Tin and I are setting up our recording. Can I was GonNa make you just like Colby umbrella over my head and the kit? It is a stormy day in Montreal and we are in Erie Place. Known as the Allan Memorial Institute I did reach out to the Allen Memorial for an interview. He did not want to talk. So we're not here to talk just to look. The Allen is really where the story. We're going to tell you today all started. I mean the weather certainly isn't helping right now but it does. It does look like a like a prison. Emory and I are making our way down a mountainside towards this group of buildings perched on the eastern slope of Mount Royal Park in ancient volcanic mountain gave the city of Montreal. Its name you can see. Why March royal is this big bump of green that rises up out of the middle of the city. It's pretty on a less gloomy day. So is the Allen. Sort of originally. This was a mansion. It consists of two old stone buildings that make up fifty three thousand square feet the mansion itself and a horse stable. The stable at one time had its own special. Name the sleeper sleeper where they're also right cupid show over the mansion's main entrance hangs the stone bust of a snarling dog in a large stone face staring blankly out over the city below. Its Lips just slightly parted the shipping magnate. Who had this compound built in the eighteen sixties? Hugh Allen called this place Raven's Crag it's very separate from Montreal. It's very removed. Yeah like if you were making a horror film about psychiatric facility. This is like central casting building wise. This place is a psychiatric hospital. The mansion was eventually given to McGill University. And that's how it became the Allan Memorial Institute and while it might seem like a good movie location. What happened at the Allan decades ago is real and really disturbing? This is where people were kept for weeks months years sometimes induced and experimented on. There's so much history here and it's history that at least the victims really would like people to know the story of this place and what happened here. Light Deprivation Shock Treatment Hallucinogenic Drugs and she lost her soul. Cameron didn't seem to have the slightest hesitation about destroying the lives of his subjects. He was willing to try the most extreme techniques people have a hard time listening and grasping the reality of this. It shatters their belief system during the nineteen fifties and sixties. The alum was run by one powerful. Dr a man who was considered an innovator maybe even a visionary a man who spent his days trying to cure the mentally ill with cutting edge techniques and his nights reading science fiction. His name was Dr you and Cameron in his work. At the Allan Memorial Institute was actually part of a huge secret government funded program that stretched its tentacles around the world. We'll get to all of that but for now. Here's what you should know in the US. This secret government program was run by the CIA. It had a name and emission. Its name was M. K. Ultra MK Ultra is almost too unbelievable to believe and its mission was mind control. What is less well-known is the key role that the Allan Memorial Institute and its director played in this weird dark chapter in Western history. Today we are going to tell you about what happened at the Allen who it happened to. I'm Ben Brock Johnson emory and. You're listening to endless thread. The show featuring stories found in the best ecosystem of online communities called red were coming to you from. Wbz You are Boston's NPR station. And we are bringing you part one of a special series madness the secret mission for mind control and the people who paid the price back in October of two thousand nineteen the day before Marie and I were walking the grounds of Montreal's Ellen Memorial Institute. We sat down to talk with someone who had been treated there almost sixty years ago. My name is nice. She later and I was a victim of Treatments up the Allen Memorial from five six months Nancy was sent to the Allen in September of nineteen sixty one. She went in at just eighteen years old and by all accounts at the time. Nancy was bright and beautiful and talented. Now there are deep. Dark circles under Nancy's is her. Long hair is completely white. Her skin is like tracing paper. Her speech is slurred and throughout her conversation with us. She repeats things unhealthy. Well I'm healthy. Well Nancy says she's healthy and well now but when she was a teenager she went through a program. Designed by the Director of the Allan Memorial Institute Dr Ewan Cameron at the time. Dr Cameron was supposedly doing something exciting. He was wiping out mental illness and people and rebuilding them. Nancy spent just six months at the Allen. She was pulled out in March of nineteen sixty two and even though members of her family put Nancy into the Allen. They now say that because of what happened. She's never been the same so my name. Is Angela Bartos? I'm Nancy Layton's daughter. I'm here to talk about Things that happened to my mum longtime ago when she was only eighteen at the Allan Memorial nineteen sixty one. Nancy had just recently started her first big job out of school and I worked in actual fence and work for them for a year or two and then I became a a bit. Sick was a little more complicated than that. Nancy was working for Canada's Defense Department. Where there were a lot of men. Some of whom started giving her unwanted attention but would probably qualify today as sexual harassment. Nancy her family and her doctors all seem to agree on this part of the story but his Angela reads from her mother's medical documents. You get the sense that Nancy's doctors thought she might have been seeing some things that weren't really there. She soon found herself in difficulty because she felt that men were looking at her and making passes that are. This was quite possibly true. And she's quite attractive should began however to build up aggressive beliefs that she was being spied upon began to cease significance in minor actions. The way people move their arms. Nancy sister also said that she had started to act strange. That's when Nancy's parents got involved. Murder said we'll talk with Dr Camera. She will doing emitted from the link. Started the whole thing. That started was that Nancy's mother a medical nurse herself had an idea of how to tackle. Nancy's problems she knew of a guy named Dr Cameron. He'd been running the Allen since the forties but by the early sixties he become a giant in the field he brought prestige to McGill. University's new psychiatry department. And these were heady days for the field of psychiatry. Dr Cameron was doing some of the most boundary pushing exciting work in the Western world. People describe Dr Cameron's reputation as Godlike. He was in magazines. He was an innovator a disruptor he was always giving inspiring speeches about the nature of humanity and how to fix some of our greatest mental health. Challenges still is that many of us repressed so much that is almost as though we had a second person within us. Some hardly constantly endangers first by attempting to take their arises and the version of the mental illness an aversion spreading out and covering the whole field of mental health. So this area of medicine. Dr Cameron had a guiding theory that you could eliminate someone's mental illness by wiping their mind clean. He developed a rigorous regimen of inducing prolonged periods of sleep giving his patients electroshocks multiple times a day and giving them intense cocktails of barbiturates loosen agendas and so called truth serums. He would put patients in chemically induced comas for days or months at a time. Use sensory deprivation techniques even play aggressive and insulting messages at them all designed to reduce the mentally ill to a childlike state. Remove them entirely from time and space so that he could rebuild them. He called this technique. D patterning cameron and his colleagues were reportedly eager to have Nancy and other people like her. Come to the Allan. She was a perfect fit for the kinds of experiments. They were doing cameron admitted Nancy in got her started on his cutting edge regimen and the doctor suggested shock troop my he started giving me these treatments and at one correspond arc. Stop in the beginning and her heart stopped. I had a cardiac arrest and they had to bring me out of it. Electroshock therapy or what is now called electroconvulsive. Therapy wasn't all that unusual in the early nineteen sixties. But what was happening at the Allen under Dr Cameron's direction was very unusual. The form of electroshock he was using was twenty to forty times more intense than the standard dose in. His patients could receive them two or three times a day. This was just the beginning of what Nancy went through that we know. There's just one big problem. Nancy what do you remember about being at the Allen? Hardly anything in the beginning because I was in a room I remember waking up in February waking up near the end and Take you back to your room. Now fracking the sleep. Remember the Horse Stables at the Allen. How that building had another name. The sleep room. Nancy went into the Allen in September of nineteen sixty one and yet all that she remembers is waking up in February of nineteen sixty two. Angela spent a long time trying to get more information about her mother's treatment at the Allen. It was a very painful process of just getting the records reading the records. What she got. Eventually it's shocking to read. She had a five days asleep. And Five Ts. She was taken out of the sleep room on October. Thirtieth however she immediately showed signs of relapse by the first week of December. The patient had had eighty seven. Set's then changed from one hundred and fifty milligrams q id to try. Lafon by March twenty third. She had had one hundred twenty nine. Act'S NANCY had been administered. One hundred twenty nine intensive electroconvulsive therapy treatments in six months. And she'd been heavily sedated with a mix of anti psychotics and barbiturates things like pentothal sedative when Angela. Look that one up. She found out it was a drug that for many years was used in higher doses for lethal injection. Do you remember Dr Cameron Himself? What do you remember about him? Being on The stress of the day the line bed and him giving me my Jeff. Kickoff before went into the treatment had the Krugman he he was the one that gave me. Straw my wearing asleep the injection Dr Cameron gave. Nancy was some kind of barbiturate sedative to put her into that deep sleep if he was going to wipe her mind he needed to shut it down. I do you remember anything else about any anything he said to you. She pants can hear Nancy's daughter. Angela they're trying to jog your memory. Angeles says that Nancy's grip on her own. Memory is tenuous at best sometimes. Nancy remembers things in the wrong order. Sometimes she doesn't remember anything. Sometimes things come back in bits and pieces was the rule and was awake in the morning and my wiz coming back for our lives. Then Ben My mother came a food as later metric. And do you remember anything about sort of how your mother reacted to the treatment? You were getting or case that Cam was that helpful was he though. Dr Camera was treating people time. Maybe those treatments just didn't work for everyone. But in the time that Nancy was at the Allan Her parents had done a one eighty on the treatments. She was receiving under the direction of Dr Cameron. They wanted her out. Nancy came out of the Allen. Twenty pounds heavier. Her memory impaired in her independence gone. She's relied on anti psychotic drugs. Basically ever since she left almost six decades ago yes. Nancy was having psychological problems when she went into the Allen but Angela says her mom was never the same after she was treated there. That's echoed in the official diagnosis when she was taken out and in the observations of her family. Six months later to come out with a lot of memory loss experiencing than further delusions and and really schizophrenic behavior and being diagnosed officially as acute schizophrenic from this I really believe that she was turned into a schizophrenic. And then as you're you live a life like that after six months of going through how. How do you regain your your life? How do you even go about? Originally doctors at the Allen had suggested they can help Nancy by the time she was released. Dr Cameron was saying she couldn't be made whole again and in a letter. Dr Cameron wrote to the new doctor. Who WOULD TAKE CARE OF NANCY? After she left the Allen. He describes Nancy's family in terms. That don't feel very empathetic. Her father was drug salesman but now retired. He's sixty eight and has always been dominated by his wife and the mother is driving assertive over talkative woman who tends to misinterpret things in terms of quickly week let's pause on graft like fodder has always been dominated by his wife and over talkative woman who tends to misinterpret things. This sounds a lot like a doctor. Trying to undermine the ability of Nancy's mother a medical nurse to be her advocate in care going forward after she left the Allen. Nancy went into another psychiatric facility where she fell in love with another patient. Angeles father. They had Angela but Nancy continued to be in and out of treatment. She couldn't work. She couldn't take care of her daughter let alone herself. Angela's father and Nancy got divorced when Angela was four. She was raised by her grandparents. She didn't see much of her mom growing up but eventually she had to step in and take care of Nancy. When you first went to see where your mom was living and what her life was like and you made a choice to become more involved in your mom's life how was she living. What did things look like? Yeah it's tough. It was tough to see. It was despicable. There was cockroaches Things have been been washed and many weeks even just pots and pans were not cleaned. Garbage was everywhere. This was when Angela was just beginning her own life as an adult. Angela says she had to become a mother to her own mother. She had to put parts of her life on pause. She had to teach her mom. Had Buy groceries had into her finances and as she's flipping through the documents that it took months for her to get. She is angry especially when she reads. How doctors at the Allen wrote about their communication with Nancy's dad during her treatment he has been reassured that the present plan treatment is the most appropriate for his daughter's case and that it will not induce any permanent injury to her brain or personality and that she is receiving the best possible nursing care. Angeles says this line is crucial. That this is how her mother's family was lied to. According to them the Allens treatment did cause permanent damage. It was not the best possible treatment plan at all for me just to read that it's so disturbing having not only the information the knowledge and everything that has gone through a it's just of how This was done at the time. This is just one thing that happened to one person. Sixty years ago one long lonely story especially for Angela. It's been a wish of mine for many many years just to find not be alone anymore in this process. But here's the thing. Angela and Nancy are not along not even close. That's coming up in a minute. Hello yes we are in the middle of deeply reported series kicking off endless threads new season we are also in the middle of a pandemic which is why we recently threw a party on zoom. So that even if we feel little alone right now we can be together today. Emory make a balloon animal. Yes did listeners. Meet my dad and my cat. Yes did we talk about the series? We are bringing you right now about mind. Control Your Dang Right. We did sell many of you. Wonderful people joined us and it was so much fun. So we're GONNA do it again. On Thursday April Thirtieth at seven PM will answer your questions about our series. Give you a sneak preview of the next episode and for those of you who got booted last time because we were packed out and had to many participants have no fear we can now take up to five hundred people if that's not zoom party. I don't know what is one in go to. Wbz Dot org slash endless thread in click on the post for part one of our madness series. There's also Lincoln our show notes. Hope to see there are story about what happened at the Allen is an old one sixty years old. A lot of the people involved in this story are dead and a lot of their family members didn't even know they were part of the story a few years ago the CBC show the Fifth Estate. Did an episode about Dr Cameron's experiments. It's erasing your memory. I mean how dare they do that to a human being? How dare they do that to human being? It included the story of a woman named Alison Steele. Who received compensation from the Canadian government for the so-called D patterning treatment that her mother had received at the Allen in the fifties for postpartum depression? A lot of people saw this episode and for some the details felt familiar. Word started to spread like the fifth estate. If it wasn't for those programs a lot of the people wouldn't know what's going on. It turns out what happened at the Allen was much bigger than what happened to Alison steals mother and to Nancy. There are lots of other stories just like there's stories of people who went into the Allen for treatment and came out forever damaged a new wave of victims and their family members have started coming forward and getting organized. They call themselves. Sega survivors allied against government abuse. And last year they filed a class action lawsuit. Because what happened at the Allen? Didn't just involve doctor. You and Cameron the Allan Memorial Institute was part of McGill University. In Canada's Royal Victoria Hospital. The extreme treatments being done there were being funded in part by the government. Not just the Canadian government either but also the CIA and now the plaintiffs in that class action lawsuit want all of these institutions to take responsibility last October. Right around the same time. Emory and I will roaming the grounds of the Allen in Montreal. Members of Sago were standing in the rain just a couple of hours away in Ottawa Ontario. On Parliament Hill Canada's capital. Cover that people talk. They took our tests was used again and thing that only have There may be sixty or seventy people. Here crouched under umbrellas and holding up signs that say things like lives destroyed justice for victims memories erased and the megaphone gets passed around wiping out their members the very essence of who they were in the process destroying their lives. Robbing their children of a parent spouse of a partner a parent of a child and altering the lives of countless family members. Some people hold up photos of a family member wrapped in plastic to protect them from the rain from other before she went in with the children. But we all went into foster homes because my mother was so sick from it. She had to keep going back for psychiatric care and she couldn't care for us. We're here to protest the atrocities that were to take place on our family members and I so civically our great uncle. We are degeorge Joel. Who is nine hundred forty? Five hundred forty seven? His life was ruined. His life was taken from him at thirty two and I just feel like he deserves some kind of justice. And we have to do this. Do to make sure that never happens again. This story has to be doled. Some of the people here had family members who didn't even go to the Ellen for serious mental illness and those patients reportedly got the same extreme treatments. My father was in there for hypertension. They just kept treating him but it never worked it. Put them into schizophrenia. Big Time at the end. He just sat in the wheelchair not wheelchair but that just as rocking chair and quit it was like brain dead and nobody's been accountable for it. Kind of is like a ghost. The Ottawa Rally may have only drawn about seventy people but the estimated number of people who could qualify as victims of human experiments. At the memorial institute is in the hundreds and counting people are still coming out of the woodwork. All of these people have a connection to one man. Dr Ewan Cameron but for twenty years. Dr Cameron was a highly respected member of the medical community. He led the World Psychiatric Association. The American Psychiatric Association the Canadian Psychiatric Association people traveled far and wide to be treated by him. He was a titan in the field of psychiatry. Whose methods are now considered a black mark on the institution. He wants ran. How could anybody be so simple minded? As to think you could Wipe Rain. And then reprogram the brain and then everything would be peachy again. A man whose work had mysterious funding sources. A man whose methods may also echo an even more disturbing chapter in history. You and Cameron at. She is at the seat of we know realize endore cycles torture was cameron of visionary or Mad Scientist. Could it be that he was both in our next episode? We look further into the mind and the methods of Doctor. You and Cameron and let's thread is a production of W. B. U. R. Boston's NPR station. In partnership with red. Joss swertz our producer. Irish Adler is our executive producer. Mixing sound design by Paul vicous. Michael Pope is our advisor at read. It editing help from our managing producer. Cat Brewer extra production assistance from James. Lindberg our interns are Frank Hernandez in Kaya Williams also shoutouts to former interns Magdala Mata and Noah Boston who were both instrumental in making this series possible. Noah actually pitched does this story idea of course from read it and it eventually became the special series. Maggie Noah we miss you thanks to Ash Abraham for being our eyes and ears at the SAGA rally in Ottawa. And voices you from that rally. Were Giuliani Judy. Henry Janice Shaw. Marlene Levinson Francesco. Did Giorgio Marian read Shantelle Jacob Siddiqi and you and Graeme MacDonald on read it. We are endless underscore thread if you want to contribute art for an upcoming episode or give us a juicy story tip so we can tell it like we did today hit us up there you can also go to our official sub reddit endless thread dot read it dot com or you can email us anlysts thread at wbz. Dot Org my co host and the senior producer is Ben Brock Johnson my co host and producers Ameri Albertson Thou. Let Myself Out.
Six feet away from God
"This episode is brought to you by us. Cellular there's never been a better time to switch to US cellular because now when you do you'll get fifty percent off. Select New smartphones like the Samsung Galaxy S. ten or the Google Pixel for a great choice on a great phone. Now that's fair. Us Cellular Choose Fair terms. Apply in M- It's Thursday April ninth twenty twenty and the weather in DC is really turning. So I'm going to do this part of the show from outside. I'm Sean Rama's firm and this is your Corona Virus Update from today explains Dr Anthony. Fauci finally had some half decent news for the United States Today. Emphasis on the half. He's saying it looks like the death toll could be sixty thousand instead of one hundred thousand or two hundred thousand. Thanks to social distancing that is of course still a very staggering amount of deaths seven hundred and ninety nine people died in New York City since yesterday. The death toll in the city is now over twice. The number who died on nine eleven new research suggests that this corona virus started spreading in New York City as early as mid February. That was weeks before the first confirmed case. The research also suggests that the virus spread mainly from Europe Not Asia apparently Europe and the United States are outbidding Latin American African nations for medical supplies like masks and tests that means countries without enough. Icu BEDS also won't have enough tests and masks. And that news comes as Oxfam says around half a billion people could be pushed into poverty as a result of this pandemic. Va Organizations asking richer countries to take urgent action to help nations in need. But of course that picture is a little topsy turvy right now. We got new jobs numbers today in the United States and other six point six million Americans filed for unemployment insurance last week. That's on top of the ten million in the previous two weeks. Ten percent of the labor force is out of work and economists say. We're facing the worst jobless rates since the Great Depression. Meanwhile Congress is fighting over additional stimulus. Good news for Boris Johnson. According to a Downing Street spokesperson Boho is out of intensive care. He's now receiving somewhat less intensive care in hospital as they say over there and something to soothe all the baseball fans out there. The season was supposed to kick off two weeks ago today but then of course all this happened but whether or not you love or hate. The Red Sox Fenway Park's organised is still putting in work for you. Josh Cantor has been streaming a seventh inning stretch from his living room in Cambridge on facebook. You told The Washington Post. He'll be doing it every day at three PM Eastern until baseball returns or people start streaming standards and change one of the lyrics. We don't say I don't care if I ever get back and say I do care if I ever back because good Lord we want to get back to baseball and baseball games here. We go Off Aw thank you. My Dad's a Hindu and my mom's Catholic so my brother and I were raised Catholic and this was always a big week for the Catholics even bigger than Christmas. In a way. You've got palm Sunday. Today's holy Thursday. Tomorrow is good. Friday Sunday's Easter. There's lots of church. Some fasting followed by some feasting. Lots of chocolate. If you're lucky Passover also began at sundown Wednesday time to read the Harada drink wine and eat motte set. Seder. If you're Muslim Ramadan's around the corner. These are some holy holy days for billions and billions of people around the world more than half the planet's population. But this year they can't get together and worship in some places we found that religious communities have actively helped spread this virus win. They gathered together in large groups. Jack Jenkins has been reporting on how the major fates have been coping with cove nineteen for religion news service. You know one of the biggest early examples actually in South Korea. There is a religious group there that early on with traced to the spread of the virus. The church itself says that it is cooperating. Fully it's provided contact details of all of its members so that the authorities can follow up and health officials can check with them to see if they are carrying the viruses. These numbers continued to spike. And actually it led to the government testing all two hundred thousand members of that religious tradition. Because they can trace it back to their worship services But then here in the United States we've seen some things as well in the county of Sacramento actually a third of at the time when they reported this of three hundred odd cases of drove iris in that county and a third of them were attributed not only to faith communities in general but most of that third to one specific faith community in the region the church services online weeks ago. So the problem hasn't been people congregating here but at other people's homes for service so had another instance in North Carolina where multiple cases of the current virus were traced back to one gathering. The one church helped lead in Washington state. Although this church choir practiced social distancing two people are dead and dozens more sick the group rehearsed right before the health department recommended. No large gatherings in New York City their suspicions that early pure services among Jews. Who were very careful by the way really? There's a lot of anxiety about whether they should have even held those services and they went they call the WHO actually gave him the green light to do it There's a lot of you know looking back. Twenty twenty hindsight thinking that actually led to the spread of the virus in New York City as well and so we see a lot of these pockets of outbreaks of the virus across the country. You know rooted in religious communities and from the perspective of many Health professionals that makes sense the virus spreads when there's lots of people gathered in the same space. So how is the United States? Attempted to deal with this. I know it's a patchwork throughout the country where you have shelter in place lockdown type measures. Do you have exceptions for religious services or are they included? This is an interesting question. And it's one that has come up a lot recently on because it's all these governors are issuing these new shelter in place or Stay at home orders and some of them. Some of the earliest ones explicitly. You know outlawed religious services alongside any other large gathering but as time has rolled on. We've started to see some of these governors either issue stayed home. Orders that exempt religious services or even retroactively redesignated faith groups as quote unquote essential services. Now back here in Kansas. Lawmakers have reversed in order by the governor that restricted church gatherings. Most of them are already planning to stay home and pray together and watch services online. We just felt like it was a violation of their constitutional rights. To have the government. Tell them that they cannot participate in a church service in a couple of polls now that show roughly twelve percent of faith communities continuing to gather in person as of a week week and a half ago. We don't have the latest data on that you know in some states you can still have a church service or go to a synagogue. But you need to do it with ten people are less and those seem to be carve out specific small religious ceremonies whether that's a baptism or something of that nature where everyone in the church would also have to stand six feet from each other. So you're kind of seeing a really hodgepodge approach to all of this and then above. All of that is the White House which was really slow to address this issue. Early online vice president pence people were still going to church. What's your message to folks? Still heading outside of their home to go to church services well for Karen and I and I know the president. We'd been enjoying worship services online but they didn't actually come down until very recently last week. Vice President Pence did finally answer a question about this. We really believe this is a time when people should avoid gatherings of more than ten people and and So we continue to urge Churches around America to heat that. Are you seeing religious leaders? Rebel against these stay at home orders against the administration against their own clergy. He S We're actually seeing several points of tension here. The two most dramatic examples came up last week. Where we had the arrest of a pastor in Florida Anna Pasture in Louisiana who had continued to defy local authorities and gather in large groups of hundreds or in the case of the Louisiana Pastor as many as a thousand people gathered together at one place. Just hours after pastor Tony Spell of Life Tabernacle Church and central was charged with six misdemeanor counts of disobeying. The power of the governor Tuesday service was still on schedule. This is an affront and attack. Full all Christians across the world and my entire congregation stands in solidarity with me as their shepherd we had an emotional time had water baptisms and a lot of people say today a defiant a Florida pastor arrested for openly blatantly violating a ban on large gatherings continuing to hold Sunday church services. You can see how it brown preaching to a room full of people many of them shoulder to shoulder in total disregard of the CDC's six feet social distancing guidelines mich- not about a virus is about the church being a essential service to the community. Since those arrests occurred. The State of Florida has now said that religious gatherings are exempt from their stay at home order and even the county in which that Florida pasture. was gathering his church. They've also issued an order saying that religious communities are exempt None of those orders or retroactive so on the asteroid is still going to face charges of endangering public health for continuing to gather amidst this pandemic and so there has been some tension between these faith groups and ruling authorities across the country. He refused repeated requests. Please don't put or five hundred point. Danger door they then go home and put thousands more endanger with the possible spread of this cove in nineteen buyers. When you close every door in this city will close this door. And we'll go underground but we are going to assemble and congregate as God fearing Christians. What is it that prevents these religious leaders adhering to these stay at home orders to the guidance from the White House? Even you get people who say that you know God protects them if they continue to worship or or you get people who argue that it's just simply part of their religious liberty and for a lot of these communities there. Is this concern that if you take me from my house of worship you're really taking away a lot of the the reason and the ability for me to exist in society as I as I have known it. My Name's Robin Freeman. And I live in southern California in Orange County and I was up visiting my parents In westlake village thousand oaks during this quarantine time and attended a church with them at calvary. Chapel God's Be Palm Sunday Can I call that the church I pulled up and all of a sudden I saw these news reporter and this one guy with a sign and said fake Christians on it and I just saw interesting? That people were protesting this when they find to go to the supermarket and get enough. I went to target last week and the checkout lanes. She was like coughing her hands. And then she would you know. Take my groceries and standing on the touching them like not okay but people at Church. That are too great job practice hostess saying that's not okay like where. I have trouble with that what they did that day at the church it wasn't in lieu of church service it was. You could just come take communion and then go back home so they weren't trying to gather masses of people together and spread the disease or anything like they took every school caution. Very every single employee was wearing a mask and gloves like everyone was six feet apart from each other or more. You know all the juice and the brand or just packaged like there was absolutely no contact. Anybody or anything you know. So yes even though they violated the governor's order like I wasn't fearful of that and I just think it's a believer is just to take part in that segment. I definitely miss not the church every Sunday. That's always they play for me and it's a place I can come and just kind of get rejuvenated for the week and you know it's wonderful friends at Church and I think a lot of people are very fearful right now and just you have no idea what's going on and while I have answers for how long ago last you know I just able to trust that. God is in control and he knows what he's doing I do trust that he's GonNa bring into this. I haven't loved being quarantined at all like I miss getting together with friends that having my normal routine and going to work and goes across church. Yeah but I really feel like my faith has just allow me to not feerick during this time that is at the garden state for allowing me to not these time after the break all the ways. People are worshiping without breaking the law. Right now this episode is brought to You. By great scrapes make classic styler sneakers that are ready to be worn wherever the day takes you who knows to the couch to the kitchen to the bathroom? Maybe one day even outside greats is a Brooklyn sneaker brand in case you were wondering. They've been making sneakers for men and women since twenty fourteen and give people that little genesee quad for their fit greats sources really good materials. They work with responsible. Factories that maintain the highest environmental and labor standards to craft premium quality. Footwear and right. Now they're donating fifteen dollars from every purchase to city harvest. Which is New York? City's largest Food Rescue Organization for Cove Nineteen Relief Fifteen dollars from every parachutes to learn more about greats and see their styles of sneakers. Go to great dot Com and use the code explained for twenty dollars off at checkout that is G. R. E. T. S. dot com and the Promo Code is explained. This episode is brought to you by. Us Salar there's never been a better time to switch to US cellular. Because now when you do you'll get fifty percent off your choice of select new smartphones. That's amazing phones. Lake the Samsung Galaxy S. ten ee or the Google Pixel for a great choice on a great phone. Now that's fair. Use Cellular Choose. Fair terms apply check. Us Cellular Dot Com for details. Okay Jack we've established a few things here. It's a very holy time. For a number of religions. A handful of religious leaders are breaking the law but most of them are complying and a lot of them are innovating to. Let's talk about some of that. What are followers of Christ up to on this very holy week? One of the big images. That's come out of the pandemic. In general as this image of Pope Francis offering a blessing in an empty Saint Peter's Square in MD Vatican City on a couple of weeks ago Pam Orgy. Today we pray for the deceased for those who lost their lives because of the virus in a special way like us to pray for the health of workers that are dead recently. They donated their lives to serve the sick people and apparently that is also the plan for Holy Week. He will continue to observe all of the rituals of Catholicism in Saint Peter's Basilica at the Vatican while a basically alone like when he was observing palm. Sunday this past weekend you know he was basically in this gorgeous church that's normally filled with parishioners in completely empty. Although I will note that his message in the midst of aloneness was for him to declare do not be afraid. You are not alone Sean. Gory Amir Maury deal in. Meanwhile you have these very different approaches to liturgy and worship among Protestants across the country In the here in the United States so if you are part of a small church they hold zoom meetings. Where you show up to worship. And this past Sunday people would waive their palm fronds into their computer cameras as worship began. And then when it came time for Eucharist or communion during the course of the worship you had particularly in the Presbyterian tradition where the authorities have spoken out and said this is okay. Each person brought their own elements to the table where they had their laptop their ipad. And when they said you now. It's time for us to break bread together. People picked up their doughnuts or their bagels and broke them and drink their coffee as if that were the wine all while looking into the camera together. Wow I mean as someone who was raised Catholic. That actually sounds like an improvement. I will say that I have. I have heard many reports that the bread is becomes significantly more delicious when it's in crispy cream donuts. They finally figured it out exactly and so. So there's there's that kind of creativity nets being built into this. You're also seeing a lot of worship services again go online and you're also seeing that Judaism as well you know. People will have multiple traditions have now embraced the idea of kind of this virtual. Passover Seder where while people can't gather in person they can you know again get on zoom in and you've had different Jewish authorities create principal haggas designed so that these are the order of worship for a Passover Seder the Union reform. Judaism created a guide for creative ways to get online and get involved helping people be able to gather together this. This is the holiday of all of the holidays in the in the year that most Jews are most likely to observe and that's because a heart of this holiday is really a story of hope. It's a story of our people who move from enslavement to freedom from anguish into a place of joy. And that's a story that I think we need perhaps more than ever before this year. No word on whether or not go have an empty zoom window for Elijah. There's a lot of questions about aldus will be expressed for different Jewish communities but alongside that are group's like say the ultra-orthodox who are not embracing technology and instead having more analog approaches to this you've had orthodox leaders here the United States you know outline very stringent and strict rules for how people can engage with. Seder's basically saying if you're going to invite anyone outside your immediate family into your home for Passover in has to be someone who absolutely is unable to prepare to a Passover Seder otherwise they have to undergo a two week quarantine in advance before showing up to the Cedar and they must maintain social distancing when they come in and they can't exhibit any symptoms of the virus when they appear and then in the meantime you have a Muslim traditions. You know who were kind of slowly going into this Ramadan season and and that's a little bit different because there's actually been a lot of conversation about how the Jumma prayer the Friday prayers that normally happened weekly for many Muslims. It's actually not okay. For according to most Muslim authorities to have virtual version of the tradition often argues that you have to have a certain number people physically present for that scenario while there have been some conversations among Islamic scholars. About the possibility of trying to you know try to do a virtual jumma prayer. The reality is that most of the authorities at this point are saying you're just GONNA have to fast from this for now and kind of do these backup prayers for lack of a better turn often happen. When someone can't physically attend a junior prayer as Muslims? We believe that our public health and our bodies have over us and that oversees the necessity of rituals that we have to do so in this case. We thought that the best thing was to not have services. Because when you're having you know hundreds of people coming for prayer you just need that one person who is sick to contaminate everybody else and we did not want to be the breeding ground for that. This doesn't super impact Ramadan in terms of fasting. Because it's already on the books that if you're ill or traveling you know the rules are amended for you during that time period but it certainly keeping a lot of Muslims from gathering together in a way that they would prefer what about people who don't have maybe the technology to attend virtual mass. Who maybe don't have a laptop with zoom capability or who don't have an IPAD. Or who have you know phones with bad reception in lag a lot? What are people who don't have the means to sort of update to this new normal? Do this is a big and serious question for a lot of communities and in some communities. It's notable that you would think would have a hard time with. This are not apparently for instance. The Amish are taking this pandemic very seriously and we now. Have you know a drive through testing facilities the Amish show up to enforce and buggies but in general you know it's actually? It's a big unanswered question. That a lot of people are figuring out on the ground and a lot of faith. Leaders are really struggling with right now if they actually get there if they get to that. Seder if they get to that Friday prayer or that Sunday Service. Do you know what leaders are saying right now about why this is happening. I mean what's the answer to like? Why would God let this happen right? The some people have made really dark arguments that this is the result of the sins of humankind etc most or taking a very different tack. You know these people were preaching about how this is a difficult time just as there have been many difficult times throughout history and then they say the second thing which is that while faith isn't always able to answer give a firm answer to the question of why would a pandemic sweep the globe fates are arguably built for prices. I mean this is where they are often at their strongest. In in their boldest is in the midst of any sort of disaster in this instance a health crisis. Many rabbis referencing to pass times. That Jews have encountered dimick's so have many Christians and again I will go back to that. Image of Pope Francis speaking alone in church talking to a flock of a Billion People. And saying you are not alone quota. Joel Happy Aquarium Meal Maury Sin. Ti Deal earned already knew that it's just helpful to be reminded on in the midst of a crisis that even if they're pushed in their own homes and not within the physical walls of of a mosque or Church or synagogue. They are connected to their community and that is the kind of spiritual connection that religion fortunes. Ooh Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for Religion News Service and he's now an author to. He's got a new book. If you're looking for something read it's called American prophets the religious roots of progressive politics and the ongoing fight for the soul of the country. What a title. I'm Sean Rotherham. Explained
Madness, Pt. 3: Subproject 68
"Dear Listener you're about to hear months and months and months of hard work. Our special investigative series madness in addition to time this kind of journalism takes resources which is easy to forget when we just magically appear in your feed right but if you want endless thread to continue this work and you're able to support the show during tricky time make a donation to our home station. Wbz In any amount just text the word endless two four four three two one or if you're outside of the US give at wbz dot org slash endless thread. If you make a recurring donation you'll even get access to exclusive. Bonus content from the making of our special series. All you have to do is text endless two four four three two one. Thanks for listening and hang in there. Everybody before we start. We WanNa tell you about another podcast. That is one of my personal favorites criminal from Pr. Xs radio. Topa criminal has been called one of the first true hits and the thinking person's true crime podcast and they've got more than one hundred thirty episodes each one telling a different true story from a new perspective. Stories of people who've done wrong been wronged or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Recent episodes include a look inside the illegal buying and selling of body parts. The so called gay panic defense investigate a murder when the victim is a wolf and the story of a forgotten woman detective known as Ms Sherlock Holmes when you're done with this episode of endless thread goal is in criminal hosted by Phoebe judge wherever you listen to US produced by the I lab at. Wbz Walk Boston. This is part three of our special series madness. If you haven't heard parts one in two yet go listen to those. I also a quick heads up that this episode contains brief references to suicide previously on endless thread. He just had this incredible. Almost undifferentiated ambition. Our next risk venture will be into that vastly promising world about hill. My father always wanted the best. And you in Cameron seemed to be the best you know he did have the attitude that to make an Omelet. You have to a few aches. My father disappeared and what came home was a shadow a shadow of a man. You in Cameron carried out what we can now guess. In retrospect were some of the most horrifically brutal medical experiments ever connected to M. K. Ultra your ability to put yourself in a mindset of constant existential dread has a lot to do with your place in the world and the time you're living in the years after World War. Two ended a lot of people felt relief. War was over is operation homecoming last official nation. Now the American eighty second division objective but at the same time the end of the war all the first atomic bombs detonated and the discovery of mass murderer and horrible human experimentation in the concentration camps of the Third Reich and while the Nazis had been defeated by the allied powers in the West. There was a new threat on the horizon to the east the Soviet Union by the late nineteen forties the. Us government was focused on the next war. A war that could include nuclear weapons. Americans were taught during that period that the Soviet Union was about to devastate us at any moment and could with the flick of a switch not only destroy our country but wipe away any possibility for meaningful human life on earth forever that is author former New York Times reporter and bureau chief Stephen Kinzer who says the weapons of the next big war imagined by the. Us government weren't just massive bombs people in the Central Intelligence Agency newly formed in nineteen. Forty seven worried about something much more. Insidious the CIA had witnessed to events on the world stage directly after World War. Two that had the spooks spooked. The I was the testimony of a witness in Nineteen forty-nine the Roman Catholic bishop of hungry was hauled up on the stand in a show trial run by communist powers there. He was facing charges for crimes. He did not commit weirdly. He confessed anyway. Weirder STILL TO CIA. Operatives and others watching the trial was the bishops behavior on the stand he spoke in a monotone seemed a little bit glazed. They looked at his face. They saw him confessing and they thought somebody else is controlling. This guy's mind. Zante became the victim of torturing and drugging that put him beyond the reach our realm of human health no the physical cottam exempt. He can no longer be saved. It is the other strange occurrence was something that C. I a. officer is supposedly witnessed among prisoners of war coming back from Korea. It wasn't made public at the time but some soldiers who had travelled from North Korea through China on their way home had reportedly developed what was dubbed a quote blank state. They also made surprising statements. Some of them denounced the United States for what it had done in Korea. Some said Nice things about communism so what could have made these Americans behave this way. The answer has to be in the mind of the CIA mind control so with this the CIA was electrified. Powerful people in the US government were scared but so were a lot of other powerful people who saw communism as the antithesis of Democracy Dusk Hue to the Party line and all will be will the vote yourself and all will be forgive. One conceived room passes very quickly over to authoritarianism with insistent urge to undermine the whole democratic system. Apart Dan is that is not a government agent at least it someone who may not have known he was a government agent. That is doctor. You and Cameron far away from the CIA as American headquarters. Cameron was conducting experiments with mind-bending drugs in Montreal on people who had come to him for treatment the LSD made her feel like her bones were melting like she was a squirrel trapped in a cage. She wanted to get out of her own skin and she couldn't get out of her own skin and made her feel crazy. But Dr Cameron wasn't just one bad apple using questionable techniques at a prestigious Montreal University Hospital whether he knew it or not he was doing the work of a secret government program to experiment with Psychedelic Drugs and torture a program designed to win an arms race and find a way to control minds for creating new human weapons weapons that would help the west fight. The Cold War. The war that powerful people felt the West had to win when the stakes are that high people put aside normal ethical and moral and legal considerations. I'm Ben Brock Johnson. I'm Amerson and you're listening to endless thread. The show featuring stories found in the vast ecosystem of online communities called read it. We're bringing you part three of a special series madness the secret mission for mind control and the people who paid the price anyone who has dabbled in the world of conspiracy theories from aliens at area fifty one to the aluminum body controlling geopolitics with the help of Jay z beyond saying their baby girl. Blue Ivy knows about MK Ultra but while some of those other ideas are pretty thin on credible evidence sorry guys the US government's mind control efforts that's real. It's a well documented. Piece of American history. Well documented enough that it's constantly seeping into pop culture. It's part of our collective psyche. Like the brilliant edgy animated American spycraft. Tv show on fx Archer which perfectly summarizes the origins and impacted this as mind control program in a conversation between a few of the shows. Main Characters Drop Weight M. K. Ultra. That was the as mind control program right since been discredited discredited for being. Bat Shit Crazy. It wasn't for being in direct violation of the Nuremberg code which was written because of medical experiments by Nazi war criminals. Many of whom after World War? Two spoiler alert came to work for the C. I. God Damn what. Look the Soviets. Were kicking our ass in the cold. War are scientists had to think outside the box. Oh isn't that the bucks where they kept informed consent because I'm pretty sure that all those mental patients the CIA force-fed. Lsd didn't give it wait. What all that Craig? Archers doing thirty years of history in thirty seconds but it's writers know their stuff and they're talking about a part of history that many of us don't have top of mind because the CIA did everything. It could to sweep this. Under the rug when Americans eventually learned about M. K. Ultra in the nineteen seventies. It was a huge scandal. It's just there have been a lot of scandal sense but our scandal at the CIA was part of how Dr Ewan. Cameron conducted his experiments at the Allen Memorial Institute and why so few people know about his work today so we need a more in-depth history lesson on America's Mind Control Mission. And for that you wanna hear from someone who has two thumbs in a boatload of knowledge about America's Cold War efforts back to Stephen Kinzer. I'm the author of poisoner and chief Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA search for Mind Control. Kinder's book paints a pretty dark picture of the impact of the as covert operations. And that is saying something and I feel like. I'm a pretty optimistic person but reading your book I feel kind of disillusioned about the arc of American power so job. Well done I guess. Welcome to the club. Kinser connects the creation of the CIA itself to our government struggles to put up a fight against Hitler and the Third Reich in World War Two but by the time the CIA was founded in nineteen forty kinser says the US government was already doing something that seems unthinkable. So under an American program called Operation Paper Click. Hundreds of Nazis came into the United States including some of the most notorious Nazi scientists. Those that didn't enter the. Us came to work for the US abroad. So the surgeon general of the Nazi Army General Walther. Schreiber came to work for the CIA. Even people who designed the biological weapons and conducted abhorrent experiments in concentration camps. Were getting recruited to new jobs and new lives in the US. The rocket scientists went to Texas the biological weapons. Scientists went to a place called Camp Dietrich which is now Fort Dietrich in Maryland Allen Dulles who was the director during the nineteen fifties concluded. I think quite correctly that any nation that could master the tools of mind control could control the whole world and so not realizing or wanting to admit that bat was an impossible goal set as a very top priority at the CIA the search for ways to control a human mind and any intensity of experiments was going to be permitted because the urgency of the project was so overwhelming. The person came to run. That effort was a man named Sidney Gottlieb. A scientist who had helped the US developed biological weapons during World War. Two but he quickly moved over to the new directive in Nineteen fifty three that directive got a name M. K. Ultra when you are researching ultra. I can tell you very quickly. Just a few clicks away from the wildest conspiracy theories which seem needless to say a lot less wild. The deeper you get into the project N. K. Ultra is now a favorite set of letters for conspiracy theorists in real life and on the x files. Where the conspiracy theorist is agent moulder deal Dinh's Been working on various incarnations mind control project since the fifties President Blooberg Kale Tra- MTA Delta programs for supposedly ended in the early nineteen hundred s. Mk ULTRA GETS ASSOCIATED. All the time with stuff that goes beyond outlandish and industry up fiction but the letter scramble itself was chosen quite carefully. M K denoted which part of the CIA controlled it. The Technical Services Division and ultra was the codeword for the most highly classified intelligence of world. War Two a nod to the programs true origins extreme human experiments in concentration camps. So there really was a direct line between the Nazi camps and M. K. Ultra Experiments Gottlieb and others at the CIA had discovered that the best information about mind control came from the Nazis who had supposedly found success experimenting with a powerful PSYCHEDELIC. Compound called masculine another discovery. In Switzerland in one thousand nine thirty eight had shown similar promise in mind alteration lysergic acid defilement. Lsd As a trained biochemist. Gottlieb was very interested. He wanted to experiment with any combination of drugs. He could find he even sent agents all over the world to find Bark Moss Gall bladders of crocodiles fish tails anything that was highly toxic. Refine this in his laboratory when LSD GOTTLIEB's lab. It seemed like a potential Game Changer. For the mind control mission not just him to the whole division he and other scientists really believed that. Lsd As one of his colleagues put it the key that could unlock the universe people at the CIA sorts of applications among the people in government who had been focused on making germ warfare in world war two. It was a potential peacemaker that could be delivered via LSD bomb to an entire population rendering soldiers and civilians alike docile and malleable. Then they thought the soldiers would begin to their weapons are hydrology. Us and the people on the other side of the battle line were actually their blood relatives. The war would stop but others thought. Lsd was a better tool used on individuals controlling spice or turning them into double agents so in one thousand nine hundred fifty three godly persuaded the C. I A. to buy the entire world supply of LSD a decade later LSD would be freeing minds in America but it came to America to control minds and in the nineteen fifties long before LSD was on the tip of everyone's tongue the CIA needed test subjects so they started secretly funding research all over the place like an Atlanta prison. Where notorious Boston mobster? Whitey Bolger was reportedly given fifty doses of LSD. Along with a handful of other prisoners. They were told they were helping. Find a cure for schizophrenia. But they weren't told they were even being injected with Bolger wrote about the experience a year before he died. He said the room would change shape. Hours of paranoia and feeling violent guys turning into skeletons in front of me. I saw a camera change to the head of a dog. I felt like I was going insane. Something similar happened at a prison in Lexington Kentucky seven African American inmates were selected from the population and put in a cell and then given triple doses of LSD every day for seventy seven days without being told what it was or what to expect as MK. Ultra ramped up in a ballooned to a hundred and forty nine. So-called sub projects there were Sub Project Three Aka operation midnight climax where prostitutes lured clients to CIA safehouses dosed them with drugs and tried to blackmail them all of this was observed with hidden cameras and the CIA studied the results or sub project nineteen where the CIA hired a magician to teach officers how to incorporate aspects of magicians craft into clandestine operations. They were desperate. Which brings us to sub projects sixty eight the experiments at the Allen. Godly was always interested in keeping up to date with modern scientific developments and he sent officers to penetrate different medical. Association's He did send an officer to that convention of the American Psychological Association in Nineteen Fifty. Four this a officer observing the conference in Nineteen fifty four perked up when he heard about a psychologist named Donald Hebb who is experimenting with Sensory Deprivation McGill University in Canada. And it was through that that he came to understand it beyond Hareb. There was another doctor was conducting even more intense experiments that made him all the more interesting to the CIA. That other doctor. You in Cameron coming up. Cameron the CIA and the investigative journalists who blew the doors open on M. K. Ultra two decades after the program began. Hey have you heard today explained yet? It's a Daily News. Podcast from box hosted by Sean Rotherham. The show usually covers the day's biggest news politics the Environment Pop Culture Sports. It right now though. There's really just one story and yet it kind of feels like today has never needed more explaining there are a million angles to this pandemic and today explained has your back. They're covering the science of the pandemic the politics the effects on our economy and our culture. They are taking listeners. Inside prisons and E. R. Rooms and answering listener questions. 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Ultra is almost too unbelievable to believe Stephen Kinzer again. Who says that in the nineteen fifties the men running a program that would become notorious? For how out there? It was felt like they'd hit the Jackpot with doctor. You and Cameron you and Cameron carried out what we can now guess. In retrospect were some of the most brutal medical experiments ever connected to ultra nothing more or less than medical torture and they had no scientific validity. Whatever in fact you could practically use those same phrases for the entire project. It was cameron. Who took it to? Its most grotesque extremes again. The question is why in the answer seems to be that these experiments were the CIA. Best chance of making what they called the key to the universe. Mind control how important was cameron to the work that the CIA was doing. Cameron was an integral part of GOTTLIEB's efforts to explore the outer limits of Mind Control Cameron. Didn't seem to have the slightest hesitation about destroying the lives of his subjects That was something that gottlieb really enjoyed. Of course nobody was ever supposed to know any of this. Even when Godly was finally called to account in the nineteen seventies and had to testify and appear in public nobody understood what MK Ultra was. He had been successful by destroying the records of M. K. Ultra as he left the CIA and only left some scraps for the rest of US. After two decades. Another journalist found the scraps of this secret. Cia project his reporting in the nineteen seventies led to the release of the only surviving documents about Mk. Ultra and exposed this infamous program for the first time. That journalist is John Marks so when that happened I got a call from a publisher in New York Right after that and said we'd like to give you an advance to write a book about this stuff. John Actually wrote to relevant bucks the search for the Manchurian candidate and a book he co-authored the CIA and the cult of intelligence. John Marks is a big deal but in the nineteen seventies John Marks was just doing what investigative journalists do best submitting freedom of Information Act requests which had only recently become possible. Thanks to the freedom of Information Act in nineteen sixty seven he was trying to access documents related to CIA abuses and he was getting zilch because anytime he wanted previously classified documents. The CIA TOLD THEM. You have to be more specific. And how could you be specific when the things you were asking about? Were secret? John Marks wasn't alone. A lot of people were scrutinizing secret government operations around this time. Nineteen seventy five. Several committees set up to investigate allegations of abuses of power. It would later be called. The Year of Intelligence Committee does not believe that the acts which it has examined represent the real American character marks was combing through a recent report from a commission on intelligence abuses and found something intriguing a paragraph mentioned a program deep within the CIA. That gave a man L. S. T. and that man. Frank Olson had jumped out a window and died and before his CIA escort could prevent him. He ran right through a closed hotel window. Which had the shades drawn over it? The window grow gave way and the employee fell ten stories to his death. That account in Mark's foia the CIA saying. Please give me all the documents you gave the Commission on this program. They wrote back to me. We didn't give any documents to the Rockefeller Commission about that particular paragraph so. I thought that was pretty interesting. I told The Washington Post that and they put it into a story and within a few days the CIA notified me that they had found. I think thirteen boxes of documents That were responsive to that request. So well how convenient yes. No it was quite interesting. Marks eventually realized he was looking at something much bigger than a few experiments gone wrong. He was dealing with. Scores of special projects often secretly funded by the CIA through shell companies and organizations all connected to more than eighty academic institutions prisons organizations all over the country and the world. It was sweeping the. Cia was trying to frame this as a LSD testing program which had a sensational side to it. The you know the the gang that couldn't spray stray and what it really was was a much more serious program to manipulate and control human behavior. Lsd tests the CIA disclosed were treated as a limited experiment but Marx thought the full program was way bigger so he set out to find out everything he could about the people involved starting with the thirteen boxes of documents from the CIA. Can you say just a little bit more about what was in the documents you were able to get? It was mostly the financial records but in the financial records they were there was always a justification of what the program was and mostly they redacted kind of thing and so my job is an investigative reporter was to put back in the names and because the in those days it was before computers were were doing. The typing had done the redaction with crayons and sometimes they would leave a letter out and you could measure. How many letters were in there? We would know for example a particular scientist involved with be and ended in an and had maybe seven letters in it so we then would go to the scientific journals and we would find Somebody like Maitland Baldwin which happens to fed and because of the CIA sloppy redaction. We're able to put a lot of the names back in eventually. This led marks to a lot more information including the name doctor you and Cameron in the name of the organization that the CIA had set up to secretly funnel money into research like Cameron's this Society for the investigation of Human Ecology that society for the investigation of Human Ecology. It sounds bogus now but at the time it was overseen by neurologist at Cornell University medical school it seemed legit still marks had a hunch so he called up an anonymous source a former CIA psychologist he called deep trance. And I told them. What do you know about Dr Cameron? And he said to be. I didn't think you would ever ask me what's that you're getting. You're getting warm. It turns out. The director of the so-called Society for the investigation of Human Ecology had approached Cameron to apply for funding for brainwashing experiments in his grant Application Cameron. Detailed the exact components of his techniques D patterning and psychic driving right down to his plans to use the CIA as new favourite secret weapon LSD to breakdown ongoing patterns of behavior in his subjects the CIA via the Shell Organization accepted Cameron's application and sent him. What would now be over a half a million Canadian dollars? A good chunk of his overall funding over a period of four years once. I knew that Dr Cameron was getting the C. I. A. Money with started looking at his research and the place. The Best of of on of information on Dr Camera was the articles he wrote in the professional journals. I mean he used a lot of scientific gobbledygook some not called demand but everything he was doing was listed in the journals The prolonged electroshock putting people to sleep for sixty days. That sort of thing was in the journals. They just had a lot of names on it. That didn't make much sense unless you're paying very close attention so afterwards when I interviewed people from around the hospital who had been there. They said they were afraid of him. And they didn't want to question his methodology but they tried to assure me that they didn't agree with what he was doing. A lot of the medical personnel were terrified by him. Why do you think M. K? Ultra officials thought. It was a good idea to conduct brainwashing experiments outside of the US. Us laws didn't apply and there were real differences on what they would do to an American. And what they would do to a Farner And that includes Canada and Canadians it. Let's say to a little safer as one of the CIA sources. I interviewed said. We couldn't do this kind of experimentation on housewives northern Virginia you this statement is probably particularly poignant to the family of Velma Orlando Housewife in Canada. Whose husband David or Loco. A member of Canada's parliament the paper one day and saw something that would change their family forever. A story based on some of the investigative work John Marks had been doing. My GRANDPA was reading the these Sunday New York Times and there was an expose on. Cia funding and he recognized some of the fake foundation names as to do with the hospital and called the reporter. And then yeah. That's how. They discovered the truth. Sarah and Johnson is the granddaughter of Velma or and David Orla when Val was in her thirties in the early years. After giving birth to Sara's mom she was suffering from what would now be called the postpartum depression. No one really knew what to do with her and one of the doctor she saw suggested she admit herself to the Allan. Because it was very well renowned as this was the beginning of a huge disruption in the Orlando family based around vows. Treatment at the Allan Memorial Institute what started out as postpartum depression became a years long quest for mental health. She was involved with the hospital off and on for three years and then she continued to see Dr Karen private practice for a couple years after that. She was an inpatient for not even a year. But then it was too expensive They actually couldn't afford it. Thank goodness because if she had been an inpatient than she would have been Put into the sleep room and had that sleep therapy. She didn't get that instead. She got an apartment near the hospital and would come in for daily treatments. She'd spend her days there. Sarah says her grandmother was asked to write detailed entries on her feelings and treatment in personal journals. She was writing them for him to read so they started off like dear Dr C. And so sometimes she'd be talking him saying. I'm so angry at you right now. I'm trying so hard. Nothing's good enough for you. Excetera giving him God like status putting him up on such a pedestal and it it just kind of it flips between the two. The therapy was challenging especially considering the treatments involved. Dr Cameron was deep patterning. Valiko supposedly trying to the parts of her personality that led to her. Depression followed by efforts to reprogram her psychic driving. And then the psychic driving was LSD injections and these recordings to listen to over and over again val hated these treatments. It's easy to see. Why one of the recordings that my grandmother had to listen to was written Saint Her. You are a hostile person. You are hostile to the doctor's hostile the nurses. Why are you so hostile? Is it because you hate your mother if you because you hate? Your mother should listen to this recording over and over and over again and write down like Kinda stream of conscious thoughts on it but in an era where women had much less agency when it came to medical care. Vowel ORLA coast feelings about our own care. Were effectively dismissed. Why do you think your grandma was so determined to stick with the treatment if it was you know clearly making her miserable because everyone she knew was telling her that that's what she needed? The doctors were telling her that's what she needed. The nurses were telling her that's what she needed. Her husband was telling her. That's what you needed someone. Everyone in your world is telling you can't be that bad. Trust your doctor. Your doctor knows best. If you really cared about your family you would do this so she stayed with it. Val Oil coast treatment effectively destroyed the family's finances but according to them it also destroyed the fabric of the family itself starting with vows behavior when she eventually came home. And what David or co would do with daughter. Sarah's mom to prevent disaster. My GRANDPA would put my mother in front of the door so that my grandmother couldn't leave the house when she was threatening to run away and and kill herself. Sarah was thirteen when vowel died. She's an artist now and she's made work inspired by everything that happened to her grandmother. It's allowed to talk with her own mother about what the family experienced. But even Sarah has days when she doesn't want to talk about any of this especially on the record I mean. I don't know that you know this but I said no a couple of times doing this one because I was like. I don't want to do these anymore. They're just they're hard. They're hard and a hate doing them. And I feel like speaking for my whole family and I. I don't know just the whole weight of it is just difficult. Yeah it's possible. Sarah is still talking about this because she feels like justice hasn't been done. Justice was something her grandmother wanted to. Why do you think it was so important for to your grandmother for the US government in the CIA and the Canadian government to apologize officially because she was a pacifist and she was disgusted and mortified that she'd been used as Guinea pig to create basically human weapons of war to create better soldiers? This is why vow or co the housewife of Canadian politician. Who was the victim of Doctor? You in Cameron's CIA funded. Human Experiments decided to fight. I knew that my grandmother was going after the CIA. It didn't understand exactly what the CIA was. But I knew that they were big and they were government and they were bad and they were American. You know I just. I was young. I couldn't understand what all that meant. I I knew that my grandmother was doing something huge and I was very proud of her or that next time or Lieko versus United States. Endless thread is a production of WR. You are Boston's. Npr Station in partnership with red. It Josh Schwartz our producer. Ira sather is our executive producer. Makes in sound design by Paul vicous. Michael is our advisor at Reddit. Editing help from our managing producer. Cat Brewer extra production assistance from James. Lindberg our interns are Frank Hernandez and Kyle. Williams shouts to former Interns Magdala. Mata and Noah Boston and a special. Thank you to Andy Lancet at New York public radio for letting US play of Dr Cairns. Nineteen fifty-five speech at the New York Academy of Medicine on read it. We are endless underscore thread if you want to contribute art for an upcoming episode or give a story idea so we can tell it like we did. Today it is up there. You can also go to our official sub reddit endless thread DOT RED DOT COM. Or you can email us at endless thread at WBZ DOT org my co host and producer. Amorous Iverson my co host and the senior producer is Ben Brock Johnson Let Myself Out. Hey congratulations on making it. All the way through the credits. 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Iowa Caucus "App-ocalypse" kicks off chaotic month: Jonathan Martin and Eugene Scott
"Hello from Washington. I'm Chuck Todd and this is the Chuck Todd Cast. We are in the middle of one of if not the busiest political new cycles. Anyone can remember just to recap this week alone Cox Monday to state of the Union which had the feel of a campaign rally the end of the impeachment trial and finally. Oh there's New Hampshire primary that comes up and now six days and that was before the curve ball all we got from the Iowa Democratic Party which had one of the probably all time worst election tobacco in primary history. I think now the Chicago Tribune starts to feel good about itself as a vis taping two and a half days. After the caucuses took place we still have over a quarter of precincts left to report results. Ladies and Gentlemen Welcome to twenty twenty. The good news was that the Dominion Register poll nailed it again. No data so let's dive right into the chaos and what it means for the Democratic race. I'm joined now by two of my my favorite political correspondent these days. Jonathan Martin National Political Correspondent The New York Times and Eugene Scott Political reporter for the Washington Post guys the house. You're a hangover to where I feel. I feel like an Iowa hangover. I haven't drank at thing. You WanNa hear how intense my hangover was. I was is not able to get a flight out of Des Moines Tuesday morning so after staying up late Monday I had to wake up before to drive. Two two hours to Omaha Omaha so better than the four hour drive to Minneapolis. I had to go to Kansas City to fly out. That's another I mean I've got a bit of a Iowa Slash Nebraska Hang. You're not sure what day of the week it is. I know it's not Friday. Unfortunately that's the Madison boasts Jay mark. Where where where's your? Where's your a hangover late night? Monday and early morning. I'm fine with a late night but I want the have results by Daniel. My hope was that we missed the paper deadline. But we'd still get the results to be able to have a story on the web headline sold school. We put out paper every time you and my aunt and on the upper east side. That's that's cares about that. Paper deadline is more than that. A lot of raiders. Chuck just someone that happened the Over sixty before we get into the presidential race I want I mean the state of the Union is always a weird or event in the midst of a presidential campaign and especially when the when the sitting president is running for reelection. It always is a reelection speech. But my word Mr Martin In some ways it was it wasn't a state of the Union. It was simply I guess. The president's reelection announcement yeah and and it was a very political speech. Venue that's known more for Rhetoric is extensively about bringing the country together in about talking looking at least pretend every state of the Union speech reelection. You're sitting president has political. Obviously but at least you have the Patina of some some kind of Sort of civic civic good beyond just one's own reelection but it's it's so Trumpian and it felt like a sort of I felt like version of a Fox. News show meets a primetime reality. Show you know you have won a scholarship lose home. It's Daddy's back from the front lines and and you serve this new conservative conservative talk. Radio host are going to be honored right but this surprise right here Yeah I mean it just felt like very sort of Barnum beats ails else. Let's just drop. It is trump. I mean Eugene it is and I do think we probably ought to spend a few minutes on what trump was trying to do with weird. You'll get a scholarship and you get a star and you'll get a medal right. There actually was a method to that madness. I think what do you think yeah. I think he was trying trying to create clips. Give people enough material to Point to to say that he is actually this great generous Loving mindful entertaining President I am particularly Material to present before are people who criticize him and that he is not My full of people call them a racist and what he's GonNa say. Look what I did with the Ski Airman Tuskegee. Right young grown in underserved schools. I mean he just kept giving You know his his supporters material to throw into There you know cousins neighbors and Co workers faces about Who He really is versus what he did yesterday? But I feel like the speech as a whole was a trump's speech was trump rally speech if he actually paid attention to a script and actually you know it followed a script the difference. Yeah and you know it it it it served its purpose in terms of you know giving his base what they wanted and I think the whole event which historically as John mentioned is about unifying You know both sides of the hour was was designed to appease he's the basis of both sides. I mean everything from you know. Nancy Pelosi is a response to the absence of the handshake. And while I think those who really value you know unity you know we're upset. I think the basis were pleased. You know in some ways it was a fitting state of the Union. Say where we are. There wasn't the you're right. My sensibilities were offended. Yeah I sit here and I'm thinking what are we doing to the Presidential Medal of freedom but by the way it doesn't bother bother me who he gives these awards to. That's his right. Why you're doing it in the House Chamber? I'll admit I'm one of those sensibility. People I look at this and people like to criticize me for that you know. Oh you're you care too much about that stuff but I I can't sit here and say we are rewarding behavior that got us to this place like the state of our union strong and it began with a with a with a blabbermouth and talk radio. I mean we're in polarize place right now. Oh and that speech last night and the response from Speaker Pelosi reflected where we are and So I guess at least authentic it reflects six the kind of state of the country and the deep polarization on both sides and the incentives by the way To reward your base our practice base politics themes themes ended are so strong in. These politicians are respond to send the Eugene. You know. It's funny the way when somebody responds to trump with trump tactic. Whether it's Marco Rubio in the hands moment whether it was Ted Cruz just rip it into a winning. When they were attacking his wife or Nancy Pelosi ripping the person that does that? Does the Trumpian move to respond to this incessant attack. They get criticized. Chris iced they. Do you know it is one of those things. You're like why we're heart. Were sometimes collectively as a society harder on people that imitate trump than trump. Yeah I think You know the phrase is let trump trump. It's not let us all be trump right and so I think The standard that he has put in place place for himself. It's not one that people want to see You know other Lawmakers and people in influence adopt But I don't I don't know Oh that Pelosi is going to get criticized from her base. I mean she's being praised if anything she People are disappointed because she's been criticized the for being maybe just perform tive they would. They would have actually liked to have seen her not do more in that moment like push back more when it comes to like policies is that trump is actually putting four ripping ripping a sheet of paper. Doesn't mean anything if you're not implementing what the base wants you know really progressive policy is opposed to what Pelosi does try to do more often than people give her credit for is actually trying to find some type of middle ground with the president. Right what do you what do you make of of sort of how the left is split. Still on how to deal with trump not surprising because he so uh-huh symmetrical it's not easy to figure out how to combat them and I think the Democrats are always divide between this notion of You know we have to try to find common ground and appeal to the broad middle of the country versus were software getting play the Republicans fight dirty and we always play fight with them and Boxing gloves on they. They bring a pocket knife to a nuclear war. I have been going on in the Democratic Party. Well before trump of ray were the software. Dupes oops and we are. We don't play hard. It's sort of gotten more now exacerbated by the threat of trump so nobody knows how to figure it out but the Democrats are still more afraid of the Washington Post and New York Times editorial pages and the right is like I say I know the leadership of the Party. Sure they they get they do care. What aditorial pages? Thank when they do these moments and I think that is why they get nervous. And let's be realistic. The editorial pages in this country of the big ones that Democrats care about now. They're looking for unity and also because Democrats are still the more institutional nap. Because they've got a sort of robust left of center a faction especially in their class elected officials That's where a lot of our politics and our public is used to have that especially in the Senate But even the Senate Republican caucus his now got much more trump a five gene. It was interesting. The the very direct pitch to some African American constituencies sees whether it was older African Americans with Ski Airman Younger African Americans when it comes to the issue of of school vouchers and school choice things like that and I'm going to bide by the off the record mindset of the president of the off the record specifics of what we had in the in the in this lunch where he previewed a a little bit of his thinking he absolutely they absolutely have a strategy of trying and he because he was he quizzed me says what's the best of Republicans done this century with African American voters and I said it was W in two thousand fourteen percent and he had eight and he goes. We can do better than we do better than and he's probably not wrong if you look at his numbers he can't move any of these other base numbers anymore and you start to look at margins. So don't lose it. Ninety ten lose it ninety lose at eighty eight twelve absolutely I wrote about that right after the speech for the fix I mean when you look at states like North Carolina and and Pennsylvania and Michigan if he can get one and two percent here and there a the black vote more socially conservative the Super Super Bowl at the elite at and and and that you know very poignant moment absolutely if he can convince you know enough voters that what he is offering hiring is a better alternative especially if the nominee ends up being someone to left for many socially conservative black voters or would that so that's different conversation as monitoring is Buddha. Judge is to these socially conservative black voters the fact that he had progressive ideas about gender sexuality. We have polling rolling that supports even from the Post that would be to laugh perceived as culturally to light. Is I think more we get in the left and right this is really about culture. Left culture right because we're not having an economic debate in this country. Just make a point to that across racial lines. White Hispanic working class man especially arguing arguing be attracted to the kind of Trumpian bravado especially how our Ernie doesn't get to know your burns getting those guys right. Now you know Bernie's numbers. Among on Latino men I know less than college and African American men less than college are nearly the same as there are with whites less than college. I think one of the huge challenges this fall offer. Democrats is to try to figure out their challenge with working class Matt across racial lines. If they are not spending a lot of money on that there are going to be in big trouble and there was a problem. Two Thousand Sixteen to by the way Not know an Eugene. This is the trap that I think the Democratic Party is in right now. Is They still think the swing voters the same and it's like look where we trump is. It's a different swing voter whether you like it or not. The suburbs have to be part of your base. Now your swing voter. Is this working class man. That is less than college. I mean definitely in terms of room to grow their turn out right so I spent a few. Ah Past recent months. I've spent some time in Tennessee in North Carolina and talking to working class men across the board when it comes to race in and the reality yes when they when you talk about cultural anxieties there is some concern about gender and sexuality and what family looks like and the reality is the traditional national masculinity for better worse you know posit toxic that Trump displays it could be winsome to some of those individuals but beyond just trying trying to focus on black voter outreach. I definitely think was part of that speech and it's definitely been part of the focus of the campaign when trump often talks about race. He's not thinking. What about black people primarily for usually brown people? It's I think it's white people that are concerned that trump is racist. And don't like the the idea of voting for a racist and so it makes them feel better where he can't be racist gave a scholarship and he you know the voter. He's looking for them. It's the college educated White Guy. Sure who is who likes. The tax cuts doesn't like doesn't like the sexism and racism just doesn't says I'm not that I don't I want to be associated with that and if he can give them enough cover as you just set out just oh oh he just that's he doesn't mean it look what he does. He would would a racist do that. He's he's best friends with Ben Carson. I mean I. I heard the vertical to the Office Park Dad in like some of the suburbs and places like Phoenix Phoenix and Dallas and probably be effective. They want to rationalize voting for someone whose behavior they find otherwise appalling but they generally are right of center themselves and if they find the Democrats nominated to be too liberal and they gotta have some rationale for for voting for trump and being able to tell themselves that now now he's not a bigger certainly doing all right. Let me pause here on state of the Union conversation. We may even sneak in a quick break because I want to flip to Iowa. But here's what I don't want to do. I'm I'm not. I'm not into dealing with the process. Let's do the numbers of accent great. That's what we're going to do after this all right. Let's move to Iowa but let's move on what we can see so you know it's I think everybody realizes disaster yes never gonNA happen again probably not all that stuff. Okay done we know the Kochs are over however what did we learn from these caucuses Eugene. What was what when you look at what we've seen so far and it looks like we know it's going to be good at it and burn one two? We don't know that final numbers yet. We but clearly Bernie won the progressive fight in Iowa and Buddha judge when the moderate fight in in Iowa that is significant regardless of anything else. If if you don't know your numbers you don't Know Your Business. Most companies don't have a clear picture of their business and that's why many businesses struggled grow net suite by Oracle is here to solve that problem as a business owner. Are you really confident. You're making the right business. Decisions Serious entrepreneurs and financial teams run on net sweet. The world's number one cloud business system net sweet offers a full picture of your business. Everything in one place finance inventory. HR customers no more guessing. No more worrying run in your business with confidence grow successfully on that sweet like Ring Hint Bollandbranch and over nineteen thousand other businesses net. Sweet business grows here schedule your free product for right now and receive their free guide. Seven key strategies to grow your profits at net sweet dot com slash. NBC Set up Your Free Product Torch and get your free guide today and net sweet dot com slash NBC net sweet dot com slash NBC. I'm not really surprised that Sanders won progressive fight in Iowa but I think what the moderates communicated and getting behind Buddha judge who worked really hard to get these voters You know who. Oh I'm he perceives not being that different in terms of a mid western sensibilities Than than himself is that they want a new face even within the moderate Lane so I think even closure wasn't new enough no not at all and I think a lot of times people think support for buying. It is about going back to the Obama days but I think backing Buddha judge said we like these politics and this ideology but we still wanted to be fresh and maybe four thinking and and I think that was a a a you know fact that we dan consider in terms of where where that wing of the Democratic Party would go timur. I was out there two weeks ago I think in one night I saw Biden and Fort Dodge which is sort of smallest community but you can call it a real town it is. It's a small. I'd call it a big town town big town now quite a small part of the state. That doesn't have a lot of downs the next day I was with Mayor Pete in in Dubuque which is more of a small city on the Mississippi River. The crowds were completely different. The energy The age the diversity. Everything about the events could not have been more different. That's part because the two communities that's also because the candidate it was clear then that Buddha judge had some ahead some energy that Biden didn't have and and a caucus that matters so much because again you have to be willing to show and stay there for a few hours and and that really helped Footage Iowans like the new young. The fresh them next Silmi. That's GonNa make them feel good about themselves and I they had one I would democrats say look. Pete reminds all of a sudden grandson and I always joke. That he's what he's what older. Folks want millennials correct but millennials any. Oh don't want they don't but you know what Eugene I would just say this you look at the entrance poll and you look at if you look at it as a demographic resume right okay for everybody. He's the best all around. He had the best resume he was second. Yes he was a number one among millennials. But he wasn't dead last he wasn't number one among old people. Dead last Bernie was dead. Last among old folks and Biden was dead last among young folks. I think it'll be interesting because a lot has been then written about how you know He. Is You know the choice. Have grandparents that what they want. Their young young exciting to be in his team hasn't been pushed back on that or offended by that. Ah Portrayal older people vote. I was GONNA say everyone keeps talking about you. Know The millennials being the largest voting block This go around and they are but they are the largest largest turnout block. But when a per- percentage it's matted matter it'll be interesting to see what changes they take moving forward if there will be any more you. You know millennials surrogate if he will be more aggressive unlike outreach at college to try to win some of those yeah he's got an opportunity now to present himself himself as not as far left as Bernie but not as we're status quo as Biden. Somebody they can actually appeal to their generational bases the Bernie a young bride. No and I think he's going to try to do that. The question I have belt after the last few months is is he ever GonNa win over non white and I just. I don't know how he fixes that the challenge winning can help. Winning helps and winning twice in a row really held. That's right if he goes into into Nevada to know Nevada. Look a heck of a lot different. Oh I I totally agree either and I think I got three. Oh by the way I gotTa think Michael Bloomberg regrets not falling in the primary. He had he decided he decided not to filed literally wait until the next day and filed in the superior taste about South Carolina for mistakes. That's an he should have. He should've said no caucus right. I get that and try to primaries. There's only okay yeah. Look Tom. Steyer has made inroads and taking votes from Joe Biden South Carolina almost entirely by virtue of TV ad that blooming Grove also afforded Eugene. Part of me also thinks that Bernie is not getting properly dinged for what I think was a disappointing showing for him. Because look at it this way and I think we all thought I think the most shocking number to me in the entrance hall was that there were more people who were Hillary Clinton supporters from the last time that people caucus than Bernie supporters. And and you know you heard the same thing I heard. We have eighty thousand people here. That Caucus Bernie the last time. All we need is half of them and we win this thing okay. I thought they were going to overwhelm the place. They didn't overwhelm the place. They did get hammered and polk county which was a problem. They didn't have support across ideological lines nor across regional lines even I think Bernie showed the ceilings lower than we thought and I wonder if that was because of One one of two reasons one. The impeachment stuff required him to blanket. You know in in Washington wet blanket for turnout for all he has. He has some high. I profile surrogate so I saw a representative Ilhan Omar out there but people wanna see the candidate and so his absence. I think hurt him. Also in terms of Clinton supporters I mean one should ask Hillary Clinton coming out repeatedly criticizing Bernie Sanders. Does it hurt. Hey speaking of the Hillary Bernie raisins my my colleague Neko and had a really good observation based on our poll that we did a couple of weeks ago which had Bernie up but but actually had pete second and was revealing was the breakdown of support between this field based on the the twenty sixteen county map. Yup and you can see where Pete strength was on the the northern and southern border of Iowa where Hillary was doing the best and six thirty five. It was right. I mean the right out right along I thirty I thirty five right. Yeah North and South and that's where Hillary did dwell and that's where pizza because he had time especially in final weeks. Yeah folks word to it through an impeachment. He had time to get five events a day and by the way he was doing five. A day still is usually two the three day five events today in all our communities especially when my thing chuck this was bewildering to me. Why was he only culet for president on the Sunday shows it was before who P yes? Trust me we'll be able to ourselves. I mean but then the hub for you. I know Joe Biden Day. There's no Democrat has been on. Meet the press more than Joe Biden and he has yet to appear on meet the press. Two Thousand Sixteen right and all that does screams is. They don't WanNa they don't WanNa because it's not just it's usually happy to do the TV shows that have been holding back on Sunday. And by the way not just Sunday Monday morning the the network and the cable shows now he was relentless I mean he was all over. TV and I. It's an older demographic they watch TV voters watch TV. But that's the story. I mean that's how it became Buddha. jags I hits music television. That goes on everything from like the breakfast club Youtube to more traditional TV. Who did this and sixteen a guy named Donald all trump? Yeah absolutely absolutely and I mean you know said after Iowa. He had about an hour of sleep. Maybe two hours and I believe the the guys in Litchfield Industry magazine Right. That's the thing the opening. Although I have not heard that joke in a long time God retired it's effective because especially when nobody else is doing it yes no. It's unreal issues to himself Ginsburg it. It's it's it is bizarre. I want to introduce one of the theories to Biden's problem that hasn't been talked about and I think it's this. I think the Iran debate at the beginning of January reminded. Because you talked about these moderate voters. Eugene wanted that some people looked at Biden and said Oh yeah we want to go back to Obama Obama but then what did the Iran debate remind everybody up. Oh Biden voted for the Iraq war. Yeah it's one of those and then suddenly if you're a moderate voter doesn't like Bernie the but but that judgment matters to you will then suddenly. Who's your choice it? I think that was a bigger a problem for Biden and look pulling hasn't surfaced it but that is win. He felt like he hit a wall. Especially when you're competing against someone who went to the war and had some some stories to tell about how difficult was and how it affected you know people ended. I was at a rally of Buddha. Just he talked about how much he loves coming island and how he ran into someone at the airport that he served with and like got to tell her story and is able to do all of that for someone who's Kinda reminescent of the Obama era while portraying himself as the next Obama so it just works for him in a couple of ways to take in a different direction. I think the most important day for ability judge was the day that trump came out in the White House and said that we are not going to respond to the Iranian attacks on the US based in Iraq and that we were not going to get into a shooting war with Iran. That's a key for because if we do get into a shooting war with a ROM and we're in our third hot war in the region I it becomes very hard for for a young player to be a commander in chief even given his military experience. I think once that moment faded and this thing about the trump era nothing laughing asking why we are on the verge of World War One day by the Caucasus. Three weeks later it basically. It's forgotten and I think it was forgotten once. We are backed way conventional race. A Gift repeat it is let me ask you the Biden riddle this this way. I feel like we're all sort of ringing our hands. Is it already over. And we just aren't ready to fully say it because he's the former vice president he's too formidable in the polls and all all this or are we actually giving them too hard of a time about his performance in Iowa. Either both in no I mean that's sort of cop out of I think it's kind of third way. I mean I think. I think there has been skeptical more skeptical coverage now the human fourth. But let's get the miles to win something something that is in South Carolina. He's gotTa know he can't wait this here on his guide. My point weight. Well yeah he can't keep yeah. I mean I think Nevada's pivotal to and he knew Newham if he finishes Fourth of New Hampshire can explain to me how he does well in Nevada. I'm well I I was GONNA say Latino Vogler voters which I know like Sanders. Anders is improving with. But I mean with women comes to black and Latino voters I mean you cannot write off. Someone who is leaning with these demographics has been for most of the Rates especially when the alternative for moderate is someone who's doing terribly with Black Latino only speak Spanish. I believe the only person that speaks fluent Spanish in this field as Pete. Yeah but I mean it's gone. Yeah it's not turning out to vote. I mean like Buddha Buddha judged by them with winning black voters against against black people candidate right not to pander to John Ralston but I think Nevada could really matter this tide you too because it's the it's the first state that not only has a more diverse demographic you know I now Hispanic black but also because it's a regular Democrats state. What do I mean Democrats Democrats? They vote in blocks here. You read a huge force machines day exactly. Yeah it's a caucus state with regular Democrats. Joe Biden can't regular Democrats from the Labor movement and from the party structure who are black Asian. He's one years my feeling Nevada and I'm a little bit cynical this way. I don't think the caucuses mature enough for voters to overwhelm overwhelm the machine. Okay in Iowa. The Caucus got mature enough where party leaders couldn't sort of wire it. Yeah why are you. Yes that is still wireless. I think it is right. And because of this Culinary Union power obviously I think there's a huge problem for Bernie right because the Culinary Union Union loves their healthcare plan. Okay and they don't like Medicare for all so that that's a big problem. I guess the question is is it does it become Emma Stop Burning Movement at any source and so does it help anybody who's in second meaning. They'll help footage or Biden. My point is this Eugene. If Biden isn't topping Buddha footage why do we think Harry Reid will help Biden. Maybe Harry Reid says all right. I'll put my finger on the scale for the for the younger Harry. Reid did this before. He bucked the old establishment and Hillary and quietly helped Obama. so He's capable of this. What I think people are so trying to see what happens with Buddha judge in New Hampshire before they make a determination? That's a component. Yeah let's see it again. This is not a fluke I mean but we know people have one in the past that you know have not enjoyed as much success moving four and so making a decision off of that one one contest that that I mean that is still has not been called right I think it's a bit Premature no doubt on New Hampshire is a big deal about is a bigger deal. I disagree we pause here for a second because after this one one. We're going to do all things Mr Bloomberg. Hey it's MSNBC's Chris as this week on my podcast. Why is this happening? I'll be talking with Beth. macy macy author of dope dealers doctors and the drug company that addicted America. The big problem. Is there still a huge stigma. That says if you're taking in one of these life saving medications you're treating a drug with another drug and I saw people over and over in my book die because of that outdated unscientific attitude. That's this week on. Why is this happening three? Let's come back all right. The Michael Bloomberg experiment. Good Band or the way that Michael Bloomberg is to be used to. I heard on vinyl a bigger fan of the Carlos Danger Project. That was one of my favorites. That was my. That was my Augustina from Mexico. I was a fantasy team named Carlos. Danger Project Much better than the Alan Parsons Project. So Showing Age Orellana the Salvation Army. All right so we're going to the Michael Bloomberg experiment and I. I don't know what to make of it some days. I sit here and say I get it other days. I'm like you know just because you advertise brand dog. Food doesn't mean that events that people we'll still want to eat it and find out if it works and we got to see what voters think you know on one hand. I think Michael Bloomberg is happy. Be about the chaos on the other hand. He could've used a bigger Bernie win. I think he generally please though with the way things worked out. And when I when I talked to voters who have seen the ads they call them effective. No and that's and that's what he wants. I think they are too and they hit they go issues and they hit trump and they don't really talk about him they do and they don't talk about some of his sweet weaknesses and he hasn't had to appear yet debate to defend them And he hasn't gotten the media needed scrutiny that the candidates who are competing in in debates and caucuses and primaries have. Where's the owners by the way to know? Absolutely are walking him either. He's after funny you a you know he could be a dark horse and You know it's it's not to be dismissed right now. There's two ways Bloomberg works in my head. J Mart McBurney gets is a little bit of a head of steam. He drops an envelope on guns and daddy either works or or totally boomerangs because every time live joked every time a billionaire tech spurning another socialist gets its wings. But I I I so I don't and it's possible that Bloomberg Org if it's Bloomberg Buddha Gin and and Bernie coming out of the for February. Isn't that advantage Bernie. Yup Yup because you've got to three suddenly Bernie to suddenly burning win the Alabama primary because of a three way split out of the picture of the point. I don't know I mean what is worn. Have to do a New Hampshire. I mean I think if you have to finish second and third is a disaster for her top too hard for a central. Explain the next order. Beathard you can't explain that away so Eugene is just not no sorry. It's audio. Well it's it's I think a lot of times I've seen reaction to warn that Her performance in Iowa should seto the conversations or questions about likability. And I'm my cow in a fourth place. Finish like and I mean what could saddle at a bit is if a first or second in New Hampshire and I think the challenge for warranted. Is there on election night in Iowa. Her people said on the record. This is a three way tie for first. The results next they come out. It turned out that she's not tied for fourth fourth. Closer to Biden. Who Four right exactly? So I think that they're they're preemptive spend turned out to be false and then I think compounds are challenged into raises the stakes for her New Hampshire plus. The fact that she has from next door has been a lot of time in New Hampshire and Should obviously have geographical at Vienna's I real fast on Bloomberg Mark. He wants chaos but I think he wants to burn anymore I think. Oh He. The look the only path nomination form is is a one on one with Bernie. I think that's that's right. I still don't think he went to that. Yeah I think that's a tougher. I don't I think it's a lot harder than people realize. Yeah but I'm curious about is you know aware. Non White voters wind up in South Carolina in Super Tuesday. Eugene what do you make of every day there's another African American mayor that endorses Michael Bloomberg. Yeah I mean and I I wrote a piece about how well black I think. Black mayor endorsements are more effective than black lawmaker. I think to. I'd rather have a black mayor than a CBC assuming that. I had these black mayor on the ground with black voters in these city machine. Thought they know they know what's happening. you know the and I think it gets effective and I mean you you have these people campaigning for A mayor who really does have to overcome with black voters because of stop and Frisk can and just other concerns. It's a reminder. It's when I saw those mayors endorsement. I'm I'm a skeptic. I don't know if the democratic ten is big enough for Bernie Sanders Michael Bloomberg me neither one of our members of the Party and they could end up being fighting to see who who gets to reanimate the Zombie Party. Isn't that a great story. By the Way Twenties Twenty Sixteen Donald Trump twenty twenty seniors and Bloomberg. It really does demonstrate. All the two parties are dead. How broken it's no I I I am? I am of a mindset that that they both need to break up neither party really. We need to start over. We should be already. I know it's four parties then and and if you actually had to build a coalition to gain power when you were in power you'd build coalitions to it. We don't know how to make coalitions anymore as a as a country politically and there's not a lot of incentive right now to to do it you are doing well. If you're stuck in stuck in this thing I mean it's pretty obvious what the four parties are right. There's a democratic socialist the democratic capitalist. This there's commerce. Republicans and the and the and the and the blue collar populist correct trump parties stuffed into currently and the and the two streams get to dominate the conversations of both parties because they're the energy of the primary right now they certainly I mean if it was Bloomberg Sanders Sanders and Buddha judge. The argument Buddha judge could have a Democrat is not as effective at winning the Democratic nomination as it should view all all right before we go the impact of impeachment if you're a Democrat who votes to acquit on something if you're a Republican votes present or and by the time I'm some people here this it will happen. I happen to think that the smartest play for Romney Jones Mansion all of cinema is to as as a block vote present. It's not guilty but you can basically say didn't have enough information. It didn't have enough in. That didn't have enough information to well. Well I think if they had started a block present you actually might have gotten a few more in it again. You vote present Tulsi and simply say didn't have enough information to acquit or convict. Make the witness argument but does anybody think voters are going to punish these folks within their own party. If they sort of move on the other side it depends on the state right. I mean I don't think Doug Jones has gone and get punished within his party he can. He's got free. He's got a little little little room mansion Well I mean he's not up for another four years but he he already votes mostly with trump anyway he sat with the Republicans at the State of the Union. NOT NOT SURPRISE IS I. I'm always as a former political reporter in Phoenix. I'm always interested in cinema. What do you make her the former progressive? I mean. What's what's the reinventions incredible? And all that know her best are the ones most flummoxed by her. I was going to be like when I when I talked to people who have looked at our over the past decade store. It's really fascinating. She realized one day that she wanted to run statewide. Maybe beyond a new. The math was the pass then the math and work unless you from the metal but look I think Susan Collins made a fateful decision to vote for acquittal faithful faithful. I think it's over she. She joined the trump party. Yeah and if you're in the trump party it's tough and maize very hard and made because the votes in Maine are mostly on the coast and they're mostly southern Maine and there's just not a lot the people in rural Maine that can that can save you and create a huge challenge for. She's always counted on moderate Democrats and independents on the Maine Coast goes to vote for who who otherwise we're voting democratic presidents. And they're not going to do it anymore because they don't split ballots anymore. That's not where we are on this. And they're not GonNa do it because her rationale is just not believable believable. She says she believed the president. Trump has learned from this. He won't leave even admitted anything. What's the problem and by the full product corn? Doug Jones. His his fate is probably been sealed to he knew that too when he decided to vote to convict on To remove on both games right. Here's the thing with with Jones. I think there's only there's one candidate it's impossible for him to beat. And that's Jeff Sessions I think of Jeff sessions of the nominee. He walks into the Senate seat because the Republicans that voted for Jones owns over more sessions trumped unlike session like a weird way. Trump's hatred of sessions actually make sessions almost bulletproof if he you can get the nomination up in Jones needs more otherwise it's difficult fight. Now there's no data so in some ways you can't disappoint your base right absolutely and I mean I think Jones. It's thinking long-term regarding what happens after his time in the US Senate and ways that we're seeing a lot of people consider in terms of choosing. What's either yeah? They're gonNA vote on. The president swears the houses and play. I think he's the only Republican that thinks the houses and play for Republicans. I think it's unlikely that there'll be a huge change in the house. I mean it it is. He's hoping impeachment can matter. I just do you think. Single person loses reelection to impeachment. I think there's a couple of house folks who who are in really read districts Who could have problems because of that but I think the larger issue is impeachment benefit is just polarization and demography? That's what drives our elections now more than events it polarization and demography and I think in a presidential year. If you're from Salt Lake City or Oklahoma City the low country of South Carolina and Democrat. It could be hard to survive by the way I've been thinking about this. I think events are going to drive this election that we don't know about yet more so than anything. We think we know right now. Do events like I'll give you one. There's an open supreme court say. Oh well short my point I think it could break us by the way and opened Supreme Court seat that Mitch McConnell attempts to fill in the next three months yeah it would break. It could break us. Yeah I mean it's February It's I mean this administration as you just said it happens when September comes around. No one will be talking about February news the NFL. We are so true and we know this every time we say it and we and yet we I got when when there was the The House Democrats voted through the US. MCA Oh my gosh. They're they're giving trump win this. This is so dumb like the idea talking about. US MCA like a week later. Let alone a year later it. Does everything moves in the trump era. And that's by the way part of the reason. Why he he hangs on is because there's five more things that he's going to say by this time next week? You know all right. Well everything's been said we just ran out of time to say good all all right Eugene. Where you off to next? Are you hitting the road in New Hampshire. I am not but I'm covering the debate going to date and then you're going early states. Yeah okay. I'm Greenwich bound tonight. Don't Mr j Martin it. What's the best new offering any decent food newspaper Manchester? It's called draftable a Boston and Ah I was talking to some operatives who are really going to moines is like now ten times better than Manchester it was always a food the moines it is good player. I'm sorry but I also loved. Just you know just the big chains that you just don't see Nice People don't realize how moines I can't tell you how join US transformed twenty and some gray microbreweries that was really awesome to the moines identity is is is just so fast and I really feel form for losing the caucuses. It's probably GonNa go because I think it had a huge impact on demand. I really did over the last Eh. Time Manchester's just still Manchester Concord charbonnet. Can't we move it all to Nashua. That was my Nashua court. Smith got got a ball is actually the most charming make the headquarters of all things. New Shows Portsmouth there in the summer and then Hanover. In the fall. The best part of the name Sheri. Here's where it's not nobody says. Let's go to Manchester. It just happens where the airport in February especially I was gonna say maybe move the whole thing to the summer. Yeah that would help. We're going to Charleston. You GotTa go you gotTa go you Jean J. Mart. This is exactly the type of postal podcast. I wanted to ask so thank you. Thanks John Appreciate it. You've been listening to the Chuck Todd cast from meet the press. Today's episode was produced by Justice. Green and Ryan Braun Matt Rivera's our senior digital producer and genres our executive producer. Steve Look what ties they had a podcast for. NBC News And our theme Music is composed by smoke media at this point. If you're still listening Conan thanks for listening big. Shout out to Cohn cast nice to see you know if everybody's GonNa have a podcast. We all have to listen to each other's podcast so Conan I'm subscribers thanks for subscribing to mind you can catch catch phrase daily on MSNBC every day at five and the big show every Sunday morning. Thanks for listening. And until we upload again what if all you're breaking news alerts had a voice. What would that sound like it? It would sound like today. Explain its Daily News. podcast from Vox. I'm Sean Rotherham. 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The end of the shutdown
"Hey weeds fans this Matthew yglesias. It's Friday afternoon as you probably know on Friday afternoon, Donald Trump and congressional Democrats reached a deal to reopen the government and funded through February fifteen th that is good news for the American people. It is bad news for the weeds podcast because we were courted Friday morning and in every podcasters nightmare. We talked about the shutdown not knowing that the shutdown would be on the verge of ending by the time the podcast was over. So if you're listening keep in mind, we're not idiots. We just didn't know I think if you look at the discussion you're going to see that we get into the longer term issue here, which is still on the table. We only have funding through February fifteenth. We talk a lot about the fundamental dynamics in the White House and in the United States Congress. I think it all holds up. I think it's a pretty good analysis. But you know, there's the first part where we say we don't know how long this is going to go on for. And in fact, we now do know how long it's going to go on for so sorry. Those are the breaks in the podcast and game. You can't win them. All. But you know, we do our best. And hope you enjoyed the episode. Hello, welcome to another episode of the weeds on the FOX media podcast network. I met through glitziest here today with Ezra Klein, and Jane Costa n-, we are in the day thirty five now of the government shutdown. It is I think the official second missed paycheck by federal workers. And I think that you know, if you have been working without pay for over a month. Now, it may seem like this just goes on and on and on and on with no end, but we've actually seen this week. I think the beginnings of the Republican party's political position on this crumbly, and that that one sign of that was in the state of the union standoff where you know, Pelosi and Trump had these letters going back and forth. Trump sort of conceded that no he's he's not going to give the state of the union until the about that map gallon. You think he did that? Because that actually surprised me it surprise you that that he backed down. So. Caused me that he backed down a given. What is public position had been given the talk that maybe just go give his state of the union at the wall like for him to back down to a powerful meant to say. Like, okay. Then I guess I'm not giving the state of the union anymore until you tell me I can seem very out of character for him. It was of character, and it doesn't make narrow tactical sense. And the reason I think it was significant is that to me that was the beginning of an implicit admission by the White House that they are looking for an exit strategy here. Right. Did like they did not want to further escalate the confrontation with congress. And that I think you started to see in some of the, you know, gossipy White House reporting that came out today other signs of this that like what they are. Now, looking for is a kind of a face-saving exit and that the decision to not further escalate the state of the union standoff is part of that they said we will give a state of the union, and we're going to give the state of the union when the shutdown is over which taken literally was what policies. Letter had said in the first place, but that's like an acknowledgement that they want this to end, and that they don't think the way that they are going to end it is by ratcheting up the pressure on Democrats that like they're gonna find some kind of pathway out. Then we had votes in the Senate. Right. We're we're Mitch McConnell had had this idea that he was going to raise pressure on house. Democrats by holding Senate a Senate vote on the Republican plan, and he knew it wasn't going to pass. But he was hoping that he would get some democratic defectors his plan, but to get agreement to hold the vote on the Republican plan. He also had to hold a vote on how Democrats plan and what happened in. This was neither Bill got sixty votes. But the democratic Bill actually got more votes than the Republican Bill. Even though this fifty three Republican senators and only forty-seven democratic senators so that again was assigned right? Like there is a significantly larger number of Republican senators who are saying we need to bail on this. Then there are Democratic Senate. And if I'm remembering the numbers, right? That was six Republicans who crossed over to vote for the democratic Bill and one democrat Joe Manchin who crossed over to vote for the Republican Bill. Right. Exactly. So it's there's a number of Republicans who are feeling political heat, plus some people with safe seeds Mitt Romney was one of the the party switchers Romney voted for both bills. But you know, that's like a signal. Right. That like people in the Republican party want to get out of this. Right. You're starting to hear from people that they're hearing from constituents because I think that there is kind of this myth building early on the shutdown, and you even saw Trump himself say like don't people know that most of these federal employees are Democrats, which we can't really know the answer to that question, unless you're really take like donations political campaigns as a direct sign of one's political standing, but you kind of saw this language of like people don't actually care about government employees what they really want us to wall. Well, all of the polling has shown that people are. Way more concerned about a government shutdown than they have been about the construction of a border wall. And you're seeing FBI agents going without pay. You're seeing coastguard people going without pay. And I think the basic kind of language around the shutdown is changing it away. That's not very helpful for Republicans right now. So I want to pose the question then of how this actually does end. Because if you if you pulled me back three weeks, I would say will Trump were cruelly seeing the way out for Trump is that he's going to declare a state of national emergency. And like say he could build his wall as own way, and that'll get tied up in the courts, but allow him to like step down in a face saving way. And like we opened the government and that'll be that. But right now like he didn't do that. I don't fully understand why he didn't do that given the things he'd been saying about doing that. But he didn't do that. I can see this ending through disaster. A plane crashes like God forbid or something else happens within the shutdown federal government that ratchets up pressure on reopening. The federal government so much that Republicans can't bear it any longer. But if we're just talking about negotiated end to the thing, they're not as far as they can tell nothing is actually change in the Trump administration's position, Lindsey Graham was floating the idea of a three week reopening while they continue to negotiate and Trump said only those a pro rated down payment on the wall to which Nancy Pelosi. You said as you might expect could a hell, and so like I like as Republican position cracks like do do either of you if you had to like right now like pre right what the story is going to be when the shutdown is broken. Like, what is that story? Read like, I still think the surrender plus emergency declaration seems like the most likely outcome seems to be some internal Republican politics around that I was one other possible way out right with this pro rated type language is that I knew ons here is that the appropriation Bill that Trump is not signing does include. I think it's one point three or maybe one point six. Billion dollars in border security funding that was negotiated between Democrats and Republicans months ago, and it does not include the wall. So none of that money can be used for a wall. But some of that money can be used for Bollard type pedestrian fencing and then Trump separately over the course of the shutdown has redefined the wall to include the bollards, you just say what bollards are this steel slats Trump? Trump steel slots at what's described in the legislative language as the pedestrian Bollard fence. So there is some money in the appropriation. Trump is refusing to take for the thing that Trump says he wants so conceivably you can take the thing that Pelosi is already offering him kind of take it out and then put it back in. And then that's your pro-rated ball down payment. Just like a pure fudge of the issue to the extent that Trump is really just. Looking for some kind of way to say he won something here. Now, the inclination for Democrats at this point is going to be to say, look Trump put the country through this really bad situation because he is crazy, and we cannot allow him to save face because we don't wanna do this again, and again, and again, a subject of internal disagreement among Democrats will be if Trump is willing to basically surrender, but he needs to save a little face. Do you give him something to save face? So that we can get out of this. Or do you say like, no like we really need like knife to the jugular devastating when here because Trump is so nutty, then on the Republican side right conservatives did a lot of pushback to the emergency declaration thing. And it seems to have given the Trump administration a lot of pause that, you know, conservatives worry, I think not that it will fail, but they worry that Trump could somehow actually. Get this done with emergency powers, which would open the door to Democrats doing all kinds of crazy stuff. I mean, this is Jane, I think you you follow this world Mark closely. But but that seemed to me to be the problem that there was a backlash on the right, right? And it was more about the fact that like when there is a democratic president if they made a emergency declaration because we absolutely have to deal with the issue of climate change. Right. This very second. I think that the idea that letting Trump through this essentially letting every future president do this. But it's also interesting something I'd do on a mention is that with the GOP Bill that they put forward that failed. I think that the internal text of that Bill was particularly interesting because he actually contained a lot of specifics about Central American minor in asylum restrictions that Trump never brought up. And so I think that you saw even from some Republicans as idea that like the GOP should not be attempting to reform asylum law in an emergency or kind of doing a Stephen Miller special to include things about restrictions on how TPS works or. How can of these internal machinations immigration law work in this Bill that's supposed to be trying to get the government to some stage of open this again. And this kind of thing really does. I don't exactly wanna say backfire because who knows what the Trump administration actually wanted this point. But, but it does have consequences. I mean right now what you would expect to be seeing is somebody like Doug Jones, right who won the special election for the seat in Alabama like Doug Jones, it'd be under a lot of pressure. He's up for reelection in twenty twenty I believe, and he like has a very conservative state, but he ended up voting, and he went he had initially heard Donald Trump talking about that, you know, quote, unquote, compromise Bill he'd been pretty favorably disposed on it. But then he voted against it on the grounds. These asylum changes were snuck into the legislation and at a number of points here. The Trump administration has not been running anything that looks to me like a legislative strategy, right? From the beginning. They didn't want the wall enough to. Get anything for it. And then going forward they have not actually been crafting bills that they can use to split the democratic caucus. And that was another example of that they had something that if you just like took the Bill with it's quite narrow DACA relief or dreamer relief. I should say. And the other pieces of it, you could it was not a good Bill, and it would not have gotten sixty democratic votes. But it may be have split Democrats more and put more pressure on Schumer. But whatever the internal dynamics of the Trump administration. Are they put into that Bill language that could not pass under any circumstances? But also made it a less effective political messaging or coalition pressure document. And I would genuinely like to know what happened there like who is in charge that that occurred because a point to that Bill is not to pass the point of the get Doug Jones to vote for it. Right. And they did something completely optionally like an optional option that allowed Doug Jones to not vote for it. And just like why? Why like why did that happen? Yeah. I mean, it's it's a fascinating question. Right. I mean, the the a lot of profiles got written of Stephen Miller at a certain point sort of taking the the view that like here's this remarkable rise of a young man who used to write long emails on behalf of Jeff Sessions to reporters about why various immigration compromises were actually bad for conservatives. And like now, he's like running the whole government. But like he just doesn't seem up to it. I don't know. You know, you you had a piece as their yesterday on the on the side about Francis Lee's work on like like, how do things happen in congress and the whole strategy around this wall is just like the opposite of that. There's a certain thing where if you actually want to get something done in congress as opposed to sabotaging other people's efforts you have to I like decide what it is. You're trying to accomplish. Right. And then you have to like work at it. Right. And. If what you're trying to accomplish as a messaging Bill, then you have to keep poison pills out because he you need to achieve your messaging goals, if what you want to achieve as a wall. Then you have to be like very pragmatic about the wall. You have to give other people good stuff. So you get it done. You have to not turn it into the most divisive. Most polarizing symbol in American politics. If you just want a symbolic show noun than like, that's great. But then you don't wanna put it into must pass legislation in which you wind up looking like an idiot 'cause the airplanes don't take off right? And throughout this whole thing. There's no way to tell from the outside. What it is. They are actually trying to achieve here because the strategy is not now we'll design to any particular goal. So there's another political scientists here who's worked. I think is relevant which has Liliana Mason University of Maryland. And she does a lot of work on political identity and the way when political identities come into collision with each other very quickly the actual nature of the policy. Win will fade in relevance. And she puts it like the winning becomes the thing. Donald Trump has always been like a like a almost human manifestation of that idea. He really does just talk about politics in terms of winning and losing. And I think one of the one of the strange problems of this is it this is continuously been framed as about the wall. One for Donald Trump is clearly about the winning, right? Donald Trump has never done any of the things he would need to do to get the wall. Like he's like going back to one Republicans control of congress like he did not make the concessions. He did not prioritize it in that way. And in part that seems to be because Donald Trump's administration itself doesn't really care about the wall. Even the administration hardliners on immigration like the wall is a symbol to them. It's not how you actually stop immigration. They cared about cutting legal rates and changing asylum rules, and and the whole basket of things that have been discussed on the weeds before, but so at some point Donald Trump seems to have woken up during this most recent appropriations fight and began looking at tweets. Ann coulter. And realized that he wasn't winning. He was being perceived as losing because he wasn't getting this wall. Right. And I I something I'd like to add in is that there. There's argument on the right? And you saw that from Ann Coulter that like, well, Barack Obama was tough on these issues and was willing to shut down the government to get ObamaCare passed why can't Trump strong as Obama definitely not how that went just for the record? Indeed. Because the amazing thing about this is that Donald Trump to go back to this yesterday. Republicans shut down the government over ObamaCare and Obama was willing to like let them bear the cost of it until they had to reopen it, but the amazing thing about what Donald Trump has done is that there is often an upside for minority to engage conflict brinksmanship and to to show Washington isn't working and the president is failing and we're paralyzed in its conflict, and like maybe voters should just make a change. What is crazy about Donald Trump in this respect is it he ran what is usually the out of power parties political? Strategy on himself. So he's given Democrats all of the benefits of huge levels of conflict and government dysfunction at a time. When Donald Trump is a one in charge of the government at least putatively, but he has done that without making the bear the cost of that obstruction or those decisions. So it's like when Ted Cruz shut down the government and Republicans all followed him into it. Like people didn't like Obama, but they were really angry or publicans for doing that. And so like ended up hurting the Republicans much worse don't show has managed to both like do the thing and take the blame for it. He's like completely localized like who gets blamed for it in himself. It's a terrible strategy. But the reason he can't get out of it is that as far as I can understand basically, the the Trump administration, we speak of it as a unitary thing. But very much isn't and includes Donald Trump wants to be seen as winning and a certain number of like people who care about the issue of immigration who wanna get policy things done. And between those two things there is no Bill like. Their ways Donald Trump could look to be like winning which is the emergency declaration. But then like his immigration people. They know they're not gonna get anything out of that. So they don't want to do that. And they may even loosing in the future because you know, Democrats will use emergency declarations in their own way. On the other side, Donald Trump might be able to get more of what he actually in theory wants which is border security. There has been a lot of openness among Democrats tab, like a smart wall as opposed to a physical wall and other kinds of big border security packages, and maybe this'll be the end maybe Donald Trump will like declare victory on it. But it doesn't look like it because Donald Trump doesn't want border security. His even really want the wall. He just wants to be seen as winning a fight that he has no leverage to win. And like there's no answer to that riddle. It's it's interesting also because you're seeing a linguistic shift within the administration, not from Trump himself, which is one of those moments in which I and others have pointed out that there's Donald Trump, then there's the Trump administration and occasionally there was to have markedly little to do with. Another Kellyanne Conway had a conversation with us CNN's Abby Phillips earlier this week in which she kept asking why do you keep using the word wall? You should stop using the word wall. That's not what we're talking about. We can call it anything we want and that at that same time. Trump is tweeting build a wall and crime will fall then it's interesting how by attempting to get away from the word wall. Some Republicans are arguing that like, well, you know, if Democrats were willing to give money for baller fencing when we weren't calling it a wall if Democrats were willing to vote for the secure fencing act of two thousand six if Democrats have been willing to pay for border security before well, we'll just stop saying wall, and then Democrats should come on board. But I feel as if that is an argument that lacks any in all context about the fact that, you know, we've been having this wall discussion for nearly four years now, essentially, and it's it's interesting. How though that is really I think that was the moment to me in which I recognize like Republicans are recognizing it this this isn't going, particularly well, and especially because even the national. Emergency declaration. I think conservatives agree that like that would essentially just mean that like Trump can declare some sort of victory, but that it would all wind up in court and during the first four years of Trump's presidency. There would be no quote, unquote, wall constructed. Okay. Let's let's take our first break. And then I wanna I want to float a crazy idea. Would you buy a t shirt for fifty bucks? If you knew it only costs seven dollars to make. I don't know. Maybe you would I I wouldn't and I don't anymore thanks to ever lane. Because you never need to overpay for quality clothes. Everybody makes premium essentials using the finest materials without traditional markups. They want you to know what you're paying for. And why you are paying for it. So they tell you the real costs, and they're radically prince parent about every step in the process for the materials, they use to the ethical factories. They worked with everybody's clothes. They looked better that cost less. 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We're going to focus on one of the most important issue shaping the displacement crisis. That's held the nature of wars. Changing. We will look at how technologies like drones cyber warfare. And social media are changing the ways that conflict start and how they play out to season to displace. Now, apple podcasts or wherever you get. You podcasts. Okay. So it seems to me that if Republican immigration hawks really want to get what they want out of this. I mean, not other shutdown. They should just end the shutdown. But like if they want to achieve their policy goals, would they should take a serious. Look at is. There's this concept that exists in the White House. That's called going big and involves the DACA and that dream act, but like they should go really bit, right? And look and say that for Democrats there has been for a long time, the concept of a comprehensive immigration reform, and for Democrats, the centerpiece of that comprehensive immigration reform is a path to citizenship for about eleven million long-settled undocumented residents of the United States who have not committed serious crimes who've been here for over ten years who are integrated into American communities. And you know, who would would pay back taxes would get permanent status would be able to apply for citizenship. Like anybody else and Democrats have traditionally tried to make that deal with pro immigration Republicans for the understandable reason that they're the ones we're interested in those guys like John McCain like Jeff flake who were tied into the business community. And who would they normally wanted is the Republican side of it was things like guest worker programs do visa categories stuff like that? It keeps almost coming together in in two thousand thirteen and again in two thousand seven and then it gets scuttled ultimately by immigration hawks. But the hooks themselves could come to the table. And they could say look what we really want is a a giant steel fence because that will prove some kind of point to Donald Trump be changes to how asylum law works because we think there's huge loopholes here that are creating runaway. Whatever. Whatever whatever else is on this like insane pick a Yun less that that Stephen Miller keeps putting forward and then put it to Democrats to like, look like how much do you care about immigration lawyers concerns about asylum baba versus the concrete interests of the eleven million undocumented residents their families their communities, and I think that could be a very tempting offer to Democrats, right? If it's really true that these things that Stephen Miller thinks are huge problems are huge problems. The way to address it is to make a really big offer on the other side. I don't think that's going to happen. Like, there's just not at all the the mind space in either party to get like really really really big deals done here. But it's true that like Unimak Gration mostly the two groups are like. Talking at cross purposes about totally different things. And then it's collided in this symbolism around the wall, which like shows like are we at mean country, or are we at welcoming country, or are we a tough country or are we up a soft in eve country? What liberals really really really want is to deliver a win to this sort of shadow constituency of undocumented people who've been living here for a long time and who often have US citizen, children friends family colleagues things like that. And what Republicans really want is a stop to the ongoing future flow of people from Latin America, and like you can do both of those things I agree with you to some degree on the policy. You could certainly have a conversation about both of those things. But I I think this gets to a place where you really get into the nitty gritty of how the legislative dynamics are particularly breaking down in the Trump administration. But also breaking down more, generally. Donald Trump runs on immigration. He makes himself a symbol of anti immigration hard liner ISM. Right. The thing that Donald Trump represents above all else is not just the wall. But it's an attitudinal approach to immigrants. Right. It's like Donald Trump's immigration views are not powered by a particular set of us on like income levels. And I don't even really believe they're powered by these us on crime. Because if they were then somebody would like sit Donald Trump down and say actually imigrants, including documented imigrants, commit fewer crimes in natural born citizens, and he'd be okay. So I guess it's not a big deal. Like it's powered by something. A lot of people feel which is at immigrants are bad. They are changing the nature of the country. And that I like the country the way it was. I don't want the country to have more immigrants in it. And Donald Trump is a symbol of very very powerful tendency, not only in American life, but in other countries into some green, all countries, and the thing then and particularly around how he acts with it is it you can't. Compromise with that symbol you can't give a win that symbol. I'm not saying when shouldn't necessarily saying that the political dynamics so that are that one cat. So then you can do something else. Right. And this is fundamentally what Barack Obama sort of tried to encourage in twenty thirteen. So, you know, after winning the twenty twelve election and after Republicans took at least in the immediate aftermath. Lessen the problem is they're completely losing the Hispanic electorate. There was the emergence of his gang of aid in the Senate and Obama like could have done a number things here. He could have called a joint session of congress to like pound the table and say that they like had to pass a gang of eight spill or he could have like, you know, gone on a national tour or it could have made a bunch of demands to the gang of eight there were pretty hard line. But he did it like what he did was he created a space purposefully where if this Bill passed one of the people would get the most credit was Marco Rubio who at that time was believed to be the one of the most potent threats to Democrats holding the White House in two thousand. Sixteen and like, nevertheless, like Obama like backed out because if he had gotten himself up in front there have been no chance of a compromise. Because Republicans could not in the Senate compromise with Obama and make Obama look better and make Democrats look better. But they potentially could do something that would make Marco Rubio, look good and John McCain, look good and Lindsey Graham, look good. And and so on and so forth. The issue here is that both at the Trump administration level and also far as they can tell at the house and Senate Republican level. These are not coalition negotiators who are also the immigration hardliners. The abortion hardliners seem to be. I don't wanna call them. All cranks. Like, I think Tom cotton's sometimes works well with his colleagues, and and I it's not that like nobody there can craft a deal, but these are not deal makers if you like came up with a list of the people in congress who are like good at like building these coalitions and like trying to get somewhere with him. It doesn't include any of these people. And so I I think one reason you just don't see any of the activity that you're talking about Matt is it all of the? People who seem to me to lead. This anti immigration tendency and elected American politics are highly symbolic politicians as opposed to highly coalition, all or legislative politicians you have like a lot of people who are good at pounding the table and not a lot of people who are good at building a working group. And I think that that comes out here like they're very concerned about purity. And they're not all that concerned about getting anything done. And so they don't get anything done. I think that there. There's also it's interesting that you go back to two thousand thirteen because how gang of eight was perceived on the right? Was that this kind of transaction politics is in some ways like immoral failure. That purity is good even if nothing actually happens at least, you kind of have the moral and political purity to to go back on and it's interesting because Stephen Miller got his start essentially, the Jeff Sessions yelling about gang avait when you talk about like, the GOP twenty twelve autopsy document about reaching out to Hispanics there. There was a response within a large swath. Of the right. Like know what we need to do is doubled down more. And I think that the double downers are not politically effective, but political effectiveness is not really the point the idea that like, oh, we can create a deal that will make life better for dreamers or for specific groups of undocumented immigrants or immigrants in general is not at all the point the point of crossing the aisle. Not what the double downers want. When the fact that Ann Coulter. And Rush Limbaugh have in some ways, the ear of the president make it very difficult for him to even there was that moment in early December in which he was kind of like, you know, wall funding is Nasr important. He got decimated within specific swath of right wing media because conversation isn't the point actual political wheeling and dealing is not the point which I think is in some ways why this has been such a difficult shut down for Trump to leverage because Nancy Pelosi is very good at politics. And I think that that's a specific challenge. When Donald Trump has no the idea of being good at politics is now. Not why he was elected president. It was because he was supposed to be outside of politics only, he could fix the issues that come with wheeling and dealing, but the issue is that you have to be good at wheeling and dealing to actually do anything that even the double down would want. I do think the autopsy report is actually and the sort of debate about that is is very well event here, right? Because if you if you look at that twenty twelve autopsy and the analysis that Romney's core problem was was weakness with Latinos, you can see where that comes out of which is that over the states that Obama won in twenty twelve his three weakest wins were Florida Virginia, and Colorado, and those are all states with relatively large Latino populations in the case of Florida and Colorado Virginia's modest, but but quite rapidly growing. And so those are all states where I think you can really say look if Romney had done as well as Bush with Latinos, he would have won those states. So and like those those were the closest states, so that's what we're focusing. On right different analysis. And frankly, more correct analysis would be to say, look, even if Romney had won Florida and Virginia and Colorado. He still would have lost the election yet. But think of thick of how much more of a moral victory. Right. But the the goal is not to win states. It's to win the election. Right. And the pivotal state was Pennsylvania. If you go through how much better would they have had to have done to win the political center of gravity was in Pennsylvania and Michigan and that continued to be the case in two thousand sixteen right, and Pennsylvania and Michigan are states that have very low Latino populations that have large white working class populations. And we're Democrats traditionally done well because the white working class population in those states is relatively secular and had not been super into anti-gay politics into abortion politics. Not like this early incredibly woke on those issues, but not into that. Right. And so then when Republicans shift their political. Center of gravity to anti immigrant themes. They wind up doing much better in those white working class northern midwestern states, and even though the specific political dynamics of this shutdown are not going well at all for Trump. It is still true that positioning Democrats as the party of multiculturalism and cosmopolitanism and positioning Republicans as the party of Americanism and native ISM is a smart strategy for those midwestern states, right? Like that macro-analysis is right. And so it's hard to get Republicans off inti immigrant politics because they Trump is picked a bad battle here. But like, it's a good war. Right. And then particularly after Republicans have already lost the house the center of gravity in congress becomes the Senate GOP caucus anti-immigrant politics is great in the Senate map where like this is a totally empty states that have six. White people. You know, have like a million senators, and then like California has to and then Texas, which you know, is a Republican state. But like if there were a state in which the ongoing nativist turn were to flip it blew like, it's going to be Texas, which is going to be eighty Gillian people in two senators. Right. So the more presidential politics focuses on the Great Lakes, and the more congressional Republicans just think about the Senate map, the more sense, it makes to be the anti-immigration party, and that makes any kind of deal making just like per se unattractive because if you have a deal, then you're not having a fight. And if you think it's a winning fight, then you to not make deals or if you think the fight itself is the win. Yes. If you love the fight, I think there are two interesting things of that touches on it. And won't goes back to something. Jane was saying that when Donald Trump ran on the right? He was like the purity candidate. But, but I want to note something that was always interesting about Donald. Trump like which was he managed to both be the candidate who would like brook, no shit, and like say what he really thought and like knock into the media and also the candidate swearing that. He would be the greatest dealmaker the world had ever seen that American needed like not one of these week like like pathetic people. But like the Kenneth who written the art of the deal like me, Donald Trump like the great dealmaker. And so this I think was also important with those voters you're talking about Matt that they're obviously some voters for whom like the issue, and the only issue is keeping America like as white and native foreign as possible, and like they're out there, and there's some voters who just like are uncomfortable with changing demographics, and like they're out the two, and I think that's actually a big group, and it's an important group in American politics. But there are a lot of voters who like pass him sympathy with this. But they also like they're not so political that they would like things to work. They would like politics to not be a circus, and they're very disillusioned with politicians, and they're very disillusioned with politicians because. Like go back a couple of years into the Obama era, which now looks like this awareness of calm, and like an almost like peace, but it wasn't had shutdowns in debt, ceiling, crises and constant partisanship. And like fights over, you know, Trayvon Martin. And like there's like all this feeling of tumbled and here Kim, Donald Trump with his authoritarian personality swearing that. He can make these great deals because looking at much money made in business. And you know, it's it's cliche say it now, but it is worth remembering that the apprentice was very important to the Donald Trump candidacy the in the view of himself that Donald Trump had persuaded America on the apprentice wasn't like a nutcase nativist, both a great in-command businessman. So Donald Trump like managed to put together this set of things there's actually quite unusual to put together in American life. But it just turned out that he wasn't all of those things. He wasn't a good deal maker. He probably wasn't a very good businessman. He is kind of nutty nativist. He is a hardliner. He doesn't compromise at all. And so what you see now like. To your point Matt there's something to that idea that Donald Trump is picked about battle here. Possibly a good war. But there's also something to the fact that yes, whether Donald Trump can run the government is for twenty twenty part of the war, and the fact that his approval ratings have been going steadily. Dow is a real signal that that matter to his support right there could be this view in liberal circles. Like, nothing Donald Trump does hurts them. And I think that you said often, and I said as well that no actually a lot. That's happened hurts him. That's why he's always unpopular, but this is hurting him even more and if Donald Trump cleaves immigration hard liner from great maker who knows how to run things that is not a winning presidential campaign for somebody who already almost lost. But I do want to go here. I think we should take a break because I do want to talk about Donald Trump's foils and particularly Nancy Pelosi who I think is run a stunningly effective counter-strategy. So I think to understand this whole like what is going on here there too big moments with looking at the democratic leaders forced into being was it's now probably month month and some change ago. But during one of those initial meetings with Donald Trump, and I remember watching this this crazy thing with Chuck Schumer just again, and again and again, bathing Donald Trump until Donald Trump finally just like like like hulk like ripped off the rhetorical. It was like I would be proud to shut down the government like I would completely own a shutdown shutdown government overboard a security, and I'd be proud of it. It was like a really dumb west wing scene where where? Whereas like, he just said it, and it's all exposed, right? Like is a very dumb west wing where the thing that never happens. It's schumer. I mean, if you go back, and you read the transcript, it's not like Donald Trump invited them in. And then did that like Donald Trump like, yeah. Them up there. It wasn't meant to be open press. It was open press and then Schumer, and certainly does something to be closely. But, but you're really took the lead on this like is clearly trying to get Donald Trump to say if we shut down the government, I own it. And then Donald Trump says, and that's such a very important context. But by the time, Donald Trump does shut down the government after after a little while Nancy Pelosi becomes speaker and Nancy Pelosi has been like an unbelievably effective foil to Donald Trump, and I will like zoom in on one moment in particular, which is she ran a very high risk strategy in my view in setting that letter to postpone the state of the union like it was not clear to me that that would be a winning strategy. I thought that was like a very good chance of. Backfiring. That people said that's an American tradition, and we need to be talking. And you know, whatever else it might be. And then you had like Donald Trump coming back and saying it, I, you know, I'm just going to be showing up whatever. And like the secret services. It can do it fine. And it completely worked like she has stared down Trump completely unblinking Lii, and he is blinking. And there is something interesting in the way that the the two Democrats have been tag teaming this in the way that you know, Chuck Schumer tries to draw Trump out and Goshi it with Republicans and Nancy Pelosi is just been this quite unyielding force who's willing to to tweak Trump and just utterly unafraid of him in a way that very few people. He's dealt with have appeared to be. I've been very impressed by the by the democratic leadership team over the course of this shutdown so far, I think it's it's useful. Also to note that a their compatriots in a sense within the Trump administration have done an extraordinarily poor job of messaging nece where one Trump administration official kind of. Described federal workers coming into work without getting paid is volunteering because they so support the president and Wilbur Ross who's commerce secretary said he doesn't understand why federal workers are using food banks when they should just be taking out loans, and he described you federal workers not having enough cash as a liquidity is to be fair. It is liquidating Chris this is much by thinking guess. Yes. Cr-? Those craziest comment to me. No. The craziest common was when Trump defending Ross said that he thought Ross misspoke. But what he really meant was that you could go down to the grocery store, and they would know you're good for it. And they just wouldn't make you pay for several days. Like, he's like shopping in the nineteen twenties or something. I don't I don't know what he's not even that he's old. But he like he's. Lead to the ongoing question of what Trump thinks a average American does and just an average day. But I you also saw this from Laura Trump talking about how you know, this is a sacrifice for federal employees, but their grandchildren and children will be so grateful, and it's interesting from someone write about, obviously conservatives and conservatism, and it's interesting how the administration that was that pitched itself the most to being speaking to every day, quote, unquote, normal Americans, and when I think people connected to this ministration or people who are supportive of this administration used the term normal. They mean, the white working class Americans living in rust belt states, but it's interesting to see this administration be so bad at messaging to that same group of people while sounding like marie-antoinette that is absolutely true. But also, I mean back to Pelosi, right? I mean when people were talking about newsy policies future in leadership, and she was getting. Criticized I think that the criticisms of her were mostly focused on a thing. That is true. Which is that she is not an incredibly dynamic public communicator. Right. Like, her speeches are not like going into the classics, and she's not the a plus number one person to go on a like two people yell at each other television show, and she's polarizing right? That was the other piece of that it right? But what her supporters were saying the whole time was that she's really good at the job of being a legislative caucus leader. And like, that's what you've seen across us because it's very difficult type situation. Right. Where one thing that happened here is that Colin Peterson who is a veteran House Democrat. He hold down, the Trump, east house district of any district that that Democrats represent he has kind of broken with the party, and you know, said on local talk radio like, yeah. Like, give Trump has wall. Right. And that's. Absolutely the right politics for Peterson and Peterson has been around so long that like there's no way leadership could get him to not do that. Anyway. But the way policy managed the house is that it wasn't a huge deal. When Peterson did that there wasn't like a ha the first cracks in the democratic armor. Right. And there was no stampede like Jared golden who holds down a fairly Trumpy district in northern Maine. That's like kinda similar to Peterson's northern Minnesota district. But it's just one his election. He didn't like hop on that bandwagon, right? There was no stampede. And not only was there. No stampede. Everybody knew. There was no stampede. Right. There was those the multiple layers of confidence that the caucus was sticking together that there was going to be an exception to the rule that the caucus was sticking together. But that it wasn't even big news. Because of course, this one I did right. And like that stuff is really really hard. That's the kind of thing that a new. Person would really struggle with and to have the depth of relationships with people with understanding of what's important, and what's not important. And like what matters about these different things a risky strategy. Like that said of the union ladder to pull it off. You need your people to not act like it's a risky strategy. Yes. Right. Like if every member of congress had right away like Ben on the phone with their favourite reporter back in the district being like, I don't know about this like it wouldn't have worked. And I'm sure lots of members of the house had some doubts about that strategy. But they did not express those doubts in public and because they didn't express the doubts in public the strategy worked, right? And like that's what she's been able to pull off whereas Republicans here, it's just in their overt message on television. But it's like you just look at the right? Like, you just cover Capitol Hill. It is obvious, and it has been obvious from day one that they are not comfortable with this strategy. That they don't really believe that their leaders have a winning hand here. And they just like they look itchy. They act cheap. They're breaking on weird votes. There was a story in the post about Senate Republicans yelling at each other. And that just builds confidence over time that like we don't know what end game is here. But like clearly it involves Republicans caving. And like that was the thing people were saying when people were dumping on Pelosi was like when you actually have a speaker, and you want the speaker to do the job. Well, she's going to do it. While also two of the things that are notably here. One is it on day. One of this the way day one went is Donald Trump at trade Republicans by abandoning a deal they had to go she and he had said he would sign onto. So they really began for place a fracture. I just want to note. It's not a great president. But just like give plus a little bit more more praise on this. The other thing that I think has been important here. I don't know if you guys find this when you do your reporting. But I I find Capitol Hill, there's a real destroy. Action between different views of Donald Trump. And there's one few of Donald Trump, which is like the Donald Trump doesn't know very much. But he's really strong that he's like a he's like a strong person, you know, easy does things at the conventional wisdom won't back. And he and a number of Democrats have this kind of like what I would call the grudging respect view of Donald Trump like heated, something unimaginably difficult to them certainly which is win that election coming out of nowhere. And that the guy has some kind of like political master genius that is not fully apparent adult times. But you've got to give it its due. And you got to give him a wide berth. Like, Donald Trump is sort of like like visa, it's like he's like a wild animal or something. You know, you wanna be careful, and there are others. And I was Nazi policy has always been a leading person in this caucus who say no, Donald Trump is weak. He's like a week prideful vein, man. And if you can just poke him enough he will overreact. And if you're not afraid of his overreaction. He will expend himself and make a mistake. And I do think something important here is that Pelosi has for years, but now has had the power to execute. She has Donald Trump's measure. She believes he's weakened these ways, and he is showing himself to be weaken these ways going back weeks and weeks now in every meeting with him. Plus, he really jabs at him in the Chuck Schumer, for instance, more or less doesn't. I mean shimmer like will like re put out the press release. Donald Trump is back but Pelosi will come in. And be like, oh, yeah. We don't get money from our daddy's like, right? Hello. I love that comment. Pelosi talks down to him. She insults him. He she does actually something. Harry Reid used to sometimes do with with with Republican politicians, and the view is that like you don't have to be afraid of Donald Trump. You want to provoke him until like these displays of braggadocio and like digging in an and that was like the joint strategy. They played out in that meeting where they got Donald Trump to say that he wanted to own a shutdown, but it is NS strategy that plus he's been doubling. Down on an doubling down on doubling down on. And again, there's risk in that strategy to be out there during a shutdown needling, the president could make you look if you did it too much or if he responded, the right way, it could make you look like the aggressor it could begin to turn public perception of like who is causing the shuts the shutdown after all, but in part because Donald Trump's position here is so ridiculous in part because Democrats just keep being willing to vote to reopen the government, but in part because she's correct about how he's gonna react repeatedly up to and including but he's going to back down on the state of the union like Nancy Pelosi has had his measure and in that way has been very effective at the public facing game. Not just the insider game on this. And it's been interesting. Also that like I said earlier is that Nancy Pelosi knows how to politics, and I mean that in the sense of like yet, she she was she's able to hold Democrats together on issues that e- even when she knows that it's going to come across poorly in I don't know. Right. Leaning outlets like townhall dot com or something. Like that. Because she recognizes that for most people following this. They're gonna care way. More about the fact that like members of the coast guard aren't getting paid FBI agents aren't getting paid people. Are you foodbank lines are going to be more kind of impactful than conversations about specific bills that did or didn't get past? And it's interesting also that every time we have a presidential election. We have this entire conversation about people want to get away from politics or like this. You know, it's time to get away from politics as usual, and it's both Democrats and Republicans. But there's a reason why politicians are good politics. And we're seeing it right now with Nancy Pelosi the other thing that's just sort of muddy here is that for the first time Trump has really made himself Republicans like floor general legislative battle that was not how the healthcare or tax bills worked right because Trump. Has no idea what he's doing in this field. Right. Like, even in the the theory of Trump. That's like he has political skills that you don't understand like he doesn't have those political skills. And I think there was actually something to the idea that like when they were doing the tax Bill. The idea was going to be that like Paul Ryan was gonna mostly craft what the policy was and Mitch McConnell was gonna mostly craft like what were the limits to that policy that you needed to do to enact a law, and Donald Trump was gonna mostly talk about how tax cuts are awesome. That like as a division of labor sort of made sense. But we now have like Jared Kushner is the guy who's supposed to work out the legislative dealmaking right to be fair. He did bring peace to the Middle East, and he ended the opiate crisis. But I mean, but I mean in all seriousness, like the I don't know that anyone believes this. But the. Receipt of the operation is that customers work on the criminal Justice reform Bill which just consisted of getting some Republicans to just agree to give into the democratic position like shows that he can mastermind this. And like, I don't know why anybody would think that I don't believe that any of the congressional Republicans who claim to believe that actually do believe it. But it's like nobody wants to tell Trump now like you need to take back seat here. Right. And like Mitch McConnell who knows what he's doing like negotiated deal with Democrats that would have allowed Donald Trump to claim that he was beginning construction on a border wall. That key objective was already achieved by the most knowledgeable Republican legislative leader. And then Trump blew the deal up because he didn't like how Laura Ingram was covering. And like that's just nutty. You can't win with those kind of tactics. Again, it doesn't even begin to make sense. Like if you tried to pitch to, you know, Brock Obama, Georgia Bush like any president history. Okay. My strategic goal in. This legislative dynamic is to get a Bill that no media personality is on my side will complain about like how are you going to do that? I mean, I was just saying that it's a particular challenge in which Trump relies so much on the feedback from the people he watches on television that when you are attempting to craft policy or craft legislation that will make a specific group of people who work for a specific television network, happy or talk radio happy that that's going to be challenged. When you then need to send Jared, Kushner, try and parse that out to congress. But it's like, oh, we can't we can't do the because Chris Hayes will complain that. There was no public option like. Do that. If you remember when Chris as personally scuttled ObamaCare, but to go to go back to this for a minute. I was seeing I was reading some New York Times coverage of the shutdown of the kind of Pelosi Trump fight. And I I saw like the most interesting location in it, which was they they said in a couple it seemed to be in a couple different articles. If I'm remembering this correctly, they they would talk about the Plessey Trump confrontation in. They would write something along the lines or exactly Trump facing an equally powerful like female, like political leader. And I don't remember in past periods. Like, the speaker vows being declared equally powerful to the President Trump has made himself. Look a lot. Smaller Nancy Pelosi who I would say that the kind of like the democratic sentiment when Nancy Pelosi regained the speakership, you know, you remember there was this whole deal about her being a transitional speaker and stepping down in a couple years. There's this whole like like a caretaker speaker like, okay? Like, she. She's got it for now. Now because maybe there wasn't a really good alternative. But like Democrats aren't fully on board with this like she one. And she like, you know, you give her the credit, but it's not like the party was not fully like thrilled about the Pelosi speakership, and you know that joke. It's always out there like this is a day Donald Trump became president. But this has been the fight Rene. Plus, you really became speaker of the house again because like that that sentiment is gone like as far as I can tell there's another democrat in the house out there and for the most part boat, most just Ranga Fulda. Impress us out thrilled Nancy Pelosi is like their general on this fight. And I just I don't see that just to praise plus. Yeah, I say it because I think it's an important dynamic going forward. It's building confidence employees from her members. It is establishing a relationship between Nancy Pelosi and Donald Trump it is establishing away that relationship is covered it like this template coming as soon as it did after the twentieth. Eighteen election is establishing a lot of the framework for how politics is going to work in basically like the next year. The one year we have until like a year from now, we're in primaries, right? Which is a crazy thing to think about two, and if you're a conservative you have to be excited that the power of the executive is being diminished. I don't I don't think if you're conservative you're super excited general I mean, the power of the executive isn't being diminished like Trump is just poor manager of the executive branch fright like it's he's not losing formal authorities. I mean, it's true that in some theoretical Suns. At least some conservatives favor like congressionally driven government. But like this is not actually actually what what they want. And it's true read there's a remarkable transformation from the Niyazi Posey of forty days ago who was like really sweating committee assignments because she had to really delicately maintain the support of her caucus, which was full of Grumbly people who kind of reluctantly gone along with it to now. When like there is no more grumbling. There is no more. I mean members of congress will always find a new day to grumble, right? Like it will happen. But like for now like the skeptics have been completely silenced. The the last phase of the committee assignments went forward without any controversy. It's not that the last assignments where less contentious is it nobody was complaining about Nancy Pelosi anymore. So when she told them out like it just was what it was. And every people defer to her now again, and they have confidence that like she has a plan and that people who are complaining about her. You know, like look dumb, right. And that's a real transformation situation and a real question for Trump, right? There has always been there was throughout Trump's first two years. One view of Trump from from outsiders was wow, Trump is showing like extraordinary strength as a president. Right. That like unlike this kind of weak hesitant Obama, Trump is just doing this. He's doing that. He's getting away with everything like Lal nothing. Matt. Others like this is the template for maybe more aggressive progressive governance in the future. And then another year was like, no Trump is actually very weak. And then what he's showing is that if you have a congress behind you, and you are willing to defer to them on everything that you can create the like appearance of party unity and getting things done. And what we're seeing now that Trump is trying to push the Trump agenda rather than the Paul Ryan agenda, and the the house is not under his control. Then like he's really quite weak like he is not marshalling the conservative movement's forces in a reasonable way. He doesn't have a whole of government effort behind immigration that makes sense. That's even legible to people, right? He's just kind of flailing. And now that he doesn't have the total lack of accountability that congressional Republicans gave him he's facing all kinds of investigations and things like that. Now that he's not just rubber-stamping kind of assembly line agenda. Like, he he's looking very weak because he doesn't have he doesn't have any skills. Right. And it's interesting also if you go back to the halcyon days of two thousand fifteen when Trump launched his campaign, you know, I keep going back to his campaign website, and their description of how the wall would be paid for through remittances, and it's so interesting to have gotten to this point at which the shutdown itself is a failure of politics. But also, it's a real failure of this idea that like something that you built your entire campaign on Trump stuck now he's stuck because he relies so much on specific, you know, come rightly in commentators in the media, and he is stuck because at the base of it. He cannot deliver on the thing. He kept bringing up over and over and over again, a thing that was more a a speechifying element than a real idea that he really wanted to get done. So Jane, are you saying you don't think Mexico's gonna pay for the really troubling news for you mad about whether or not Mexico is going to pay for this wall is not gonna. I don't think it is. I'm so sorry. You know? I mean, it's like it's easy to joke about the whole Mexico thing. But like, it's true, right? Did like Trump Blythe a lot more than a traditional candidate? And at one point people kinda hoped it's like people will catch on that. He's a huge liar, and they'll be a huge backlash against him. And they showed it wasn't right. You now see that one reason to not lie to everybody all the time about stuff is that you might wind up in a situation where you're kind of trapped by your own nonsense. Right. And like Trump is created a universe where to Trump supporters. There is a huge immigration policies. And the solving the immigration crisis involved border wall. And also that the border wall can be achieved with no trade-offs. Right. And so it'll be easy. And also were Donald Trump is a master dealmaker. And like that stuff isn't true. Right. And like the problem is that the way is out of this involve a kind of collapse of that narrative about Trump and about what's going on there like either he's incredibly ineffective or immigration problem isn't actually that big a deal or the wall is not a useful solution to it. Right. Like there has to be some way out of this. Trump can't just come out this summer and be like, wow, the country is a disaster. Right. Like, he's the president. But you know, it is true. But it's true that you should join the weeds Facebook group of that is true. That is true on the weeds Facebook group, you will find sustenance and truth that that you. Need to get you out of this and possibly tips on which airports to avoid in the midst of an ongoing a breakdown of the traffic control system. I also want to make a plug as recline show last two episodes that they will be of particular weeds listener interest one was with Francis Lee, whose work we've mentioned a couple times in this podcast. And I think he's a political scientist most relevant for understanding this period of divided governments. Like, I I wrote this piece yesterday about how if there's one political scientist, Donald Trump should read. It's Li but like if there's one you should hear it may be her too. And she's on the show, and then also Robertson Polski who's at neuroscientists at Stanford. But we had a really really I think amazing conversation about the way in which poverty creates like high levels of toxic stress in the body that then lead to more poverty because of what they do to function learning, and and all kinds of other things, and I think it's like you hear us talk on the show sometimes about like the fight over work requirements and making a lot of these programs harder to access and I think this show like. Like suppose, he's work really kinda shows if it was in fact, your goal to help people get out of poverty making their lives. Harder is not a good thing to do. But I think both those will be worthwhile interviews for weeds listeners. Awesome. Thanks for joining us on Friday. Thanks to everybody for listening. Thanks as always to our producer, Jeffrey gal and the weeds will return on Tuesday. I'm Sarah clip. The host of the impact from vox a show about how policy shapes people's lives. I live in Washington DC where the policy making process is really broken. But this is just not true. When you leave the beltway, so many cities and states are doing interesting exciting, sometimes kind of wacky things to tackle our country's biggest problems. So this season we are criss crossing the country, South Carolina, Baltimore kogo, Vermont. The Oakland New York. We are looking at cities and states as laboratories of democracy wrestling with serious problems and experimenting with bold solutions win someone is facing deportation. It should be a universal. Right. So I'm looking at take advantage of all opportunities for me and my family. The impact. Find us on apple podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. What if all you're breaking news alerts had a voice what would that sound like it would sound like today? Explain its daily news podcast from vox. I'm Sean Rotherham everyday my team, and I take one central new story and break it down into twenty minute episodes. They're perfect for your ride home. And he used the charities money to buy his sons membership. The news changes every day, right? Well, so does our show. His lawyer Michael Cohen sets up a shell company called essential consultants. LLC insult. Subscribed today explained on apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. So you never miss an episode from Stitcher and the vox media podcast network.