4 Episode results for "Scott Decker"
"History. This week. October fifteenth. Two thousand one. I'm Sally. In. The Office of Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, an intern and volunteer are opening the mail. And when the intern gets to this letter, it seems perfectly innocuous. The handwriting is childish. The return address is for a fourth grade class in new. Jersey. She cuts off one corner of the envelope with scissors. And suddenly. White powder falls under her dark grey skirt and black shoes. It gets onto the desk in front of her onto the close of the volunteer in the room and into the air of this Senate office building. The intern quickly puts her bare finger over the opening in the envelope to stop more powder from getting out, she alerts the authorities and soon, the worst case scenario is confirmed. Anthrax The intern and the other people exposed in the Senate that day survive. But this is the latest in a string of attacks that will eventually leave seventeen people sick with anthrax and five people dead. The first case shows up in Florida where a newsroom worker dies from anthrax. Then letters show up at news organizations in New York. A baby, the child of an ABC freelance producer ends up testing positive for anthrax poisoning. Postal workers are terrified. Some of them get exposed, get sick and even die. And all this really turns up the anxiety in a country that is already on edge. The September eleventh attacks happened just weeks before the letters started coming and it's not clear who's sending them or where anthrax might show up next. Some people start sending copycat letters with fake white powder law enforcement agents are flooded with reports of possible anthrax sightings. People are terrified. And so at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the pressure is on to solve this case quickly. But the agents really don't have much to go on. The letters barely give them any clues we found no fingerprints. The ink on the envelope was common too common to be forensically useful. The stamps on the envelopes preprinted they hadn't been licked or touch a human. So in the world of classical forensics, we have nothing absolutely no leads and we literally met as a group the scientists required Co, the science agents on the new task force. And we just started brainstorming on a whiteboard. They have no idea who's is behind this. Is it the same terrorists who had just attacked the country on nine eleven or is it an American scientist someone they know? The case ends up taking seven years, millions of dollars ten thousand interviews on six continents and the invention of a whole new branch, a forensics. Today. How did the FBI eventually close this crawling complex case and what still remains a mystery? For history anytime anywhere sign up for a free trial of history volt. Stream full episodes of over two thousand award-winning history documentaries and series all commercial free on your favorite device. Plus new videos added to the vault every week sign up now and explore the greatest stories in history. From ancient civilizations to American history, modern warfare, and more. Start Your free trial visit history volt dot com today. Scott Decker is a former FBI agent who worked on the anthrax investigation got a PhD in human genetics before he came to the bureau and he's been I seven years there on the Boston bank robbery task force. He said it was kind of like what you see on. TV. All the detectives are sitting around sharing ideas and the old days we sat in the bullpen. We had our desks split up against each other. We share telephones it was noisy. It was hard to write and concentrate in the late nineties. He joined the bureau's Hazardous Materials Response Unit. And around the same time, the public becomes newly aware of very hazardous material potential biological weapon anthrax. The Secretary of defense goes on ABC's this week in one, thousand, nine, hundred seven to talk about threats the nation faces. And at one point. She held up a five pound bag of sugar and said, this amount of dry anthrax were would kill half of Washington. DC. That was a wow moment. And what is anthrax? Anthrax is a disease. It's similar to today what's going on the diseases called covert It's caused by corona virus. So, with anthrax disease is called anthrax, it's caused by a bacteria. Not a virus bacillus anthracis. This bacteria occurs naturally. It grows in the soil in dry arid places. The most common victims of anthrax are actually livestock like cows in the American southwest. The deadliest form of anthrax is inhalation. You inhale the spores and the bacteria starts growing in your lungs creating poison byproducts that can kill you. To weaponize anthrax, you create a deadly powder from the bacteria's sports. It's a solid to takes on a form of guest scientifically. The way I think about it. If you've ever eaten instant oatmeal in those packages and you dump to package in the bowl. Most of it goes in the bowl, but there's a small amount of powder the drifts off the air of the kitchen. That's the deadly part of anthrax. Individual spores make up the powder. It justice. So light it up into the air. And people breathe it in. It's difficult to find the words to describe the feeling in New York, city today and then in. September. Two thousand one. Of Very different attack on the World Trade Center in New York. One of its most famous landmarks destroyed. Thousands. Dead. America is under siege. Decker. Goes up to. Ground. Zero. On. September twelfth. He's supervising a Hazmat team but he says he quickly realizes in the wake of this unprecedented attack that he'd rather be on the ground investigating. I WANNA put terrorists jail so I demoted myself. Wasn't a field office which was largely vacant it had been evacuated, but the computer still worked. So I typed out memo I said, I'm demoting myself back to St agent sex headquarters. Not long after decker demotes himself, the FBI starts to hear about something that happened in Florida. A man named Robert Stevens shows up at a hospital feverish and short of breath and within hours he dies. His spinal fluid test positive for anthrax. which is a huge surprise. There had been a case in national anthrax in the country since nineteen, seventy six and usually airs from textiles workers working with Russia. But Robert Stevens was a photo editor at a company called American, media. At a top aid called the son. He worked in an air conditioned office building. He lives in a hot and human tourist resort area and there no reason for him to come in contact with anthrax oscilloscopes traces no reason at all. Still at first people think it could be an accident, an isolated incident maybe he got it on a hike. And told us in fact, anthrax was so unlikely that some at the FBI thought the CDC might have just gotten the test. Wrong. We all thought that the CDC Blewett they didn't make a correct diagnosis, but then we had a second victim. Adecco. Realize the CDC did have it right and we had a problem on our hands. Very quickly at the FBI. These are planned attacks. A second and a third employee at American Media Test Positive for anthrax. Then, a letter addressed to anchor Tom Brokaw shows up at NBC News Leaking White. Powder. One of Dekker's colleagues at the CDC helped get that powder tested at a lab and the public health lab called him and told him we have zillions of sports. They used the word civilians and they also said when we tested it by DNA, it is bacillus sensory. That was one of those minutes. Then, in mid October there's the attack at the Senate building. About a week later to postal workers die in two days after being exposed to the spores and the country goes into full anthrax panic mode. When this became a news site on the seven Clark five o'clock news reported in newspapers. ABAND- side of human nature came out and people began mailing what we called white powder hoax. Take powder dumping it in April. In Mail it to business they just got fired from. Or somewhere accidental a janitor spilling some cleaning powder not sweet ended up before he went home from work. All of a sudden we'd have an anthrax coal. October November of a one I estimate we had fifty thousand of these each month. Fifty thousand each month. Yes. We could not collect them all as evidence there were too many. The fire departments carry bleach on the truck and just dump them in a bucket of dilute bleach. It was just overwhelming we were overwhelmed. What saved their bacon. Term I can use definitely will save their bacon was the network of laboratories. In the late nineties, the FBI had realized. They might someday need local labs around the country to help them test biological weapons. So those labs were ready. And now they're working overtime, but these leads are leading nowhere. It's around this time early November of two thousand one that Scott Decker moves from desk duty to the anthrax investigation. Remember, he has a background in science and he gets assigned to supervise a special science team. I have a squad of special agents. And all of them had advanced degrees in science. I believe it's the first time. The bureau has ever put together a group like that because it's becoming clear that the FBI is need to use new scientific methods to help them get some traction in this investigation, they're running into problems even when they try to do the most basic detective work. We couldn't look for fingerprints until we neutralize the entrance exports right track 'cause you couldn't just go touching those envelopes. If you touch some, you're GONNA get real sick possibly dying. So he ended up deciding to irradiate the envelopes but we had validate that irradiation. Didn't fact kill every score? So set of experiments had to be done before we could do the forensics semination. That's how the whole case let. We would come up with a new technique. We would have to validate it before we could put it into play. The irradiation works but no fingerprints on the envelopes. Decker in his squad have to start thinking about a new kind of forensics microbial forensics. Basically they have to get clues from the bacteria itself. To find whatever the bacteria might be hiding the I need to read it. And the way you read something like bacteria is to sequence. It's DNA. But at that time the end of o-on beginning of out to. The scientific. Community had never sequenced facilitator three. In its entirety. Never been done, but there was a lab in Maryland run by a scientist named Dr Clare Frazier Legat and they were really at the cutting edge of DNA sequence in two thousand one. They had sequenced I believe. To bacteria they knew it could be forensically important more likely in public health resident crimefighting. So now, the FBI to this lab and says. We need your help with fighting. We need to sequence DNA of the spores we found in these letters. The lab says. Yes. It'll take some time, but we can figure it out. The agents already know that this anthrax is a strain called aims. which is one of if not the deadliest strain of Bacillus racists. So, what they're looking for is any mutation a change in the genetic code, a sort of fingerprint that could help the FBI traced the bacteria's origins, find the aims, spores, and therefore the lab that was used to make this specific powder. Which means the agents need to collect all the Ames samples they can find. They go around to labs and eventually. We had over a thousand collected samples from around the country in the world. We knew that if we could be successful in this area, we might crack the case. Or we could develop evidence to support another crack. In the case, the science will be an integral part of the investigation, but they're still doing their regular detective work to. In October, the FBI had put together a profile of their potential suspect criminal minds style. Instead it was what they call a lone wolf. An individual. Working by himself non-confrontational. Highly Skilled and science. Also probably American. Because of some clues in the letters themselves. They were written to suggest an international threat, the one to Tom Brokaw read. In eleven o one this is next take penicillin. Now, death to America Death to Israel Allah is Great. But pretty quickly the investigators realize the deeds structure is American month I may. And it's also strange that Allah is great is written in English not an Arabic so they think they're looking domestically. And probably for a scientist. The Ames strain was a popular research strain in it was used in academic in military laboratories for Vaccine Research, an anthrax research. So it was very well thought that it probably came from a scientist to win very mo may no he said those strange head space to be in going to work every day thinking very likely somebody billions done this. They've killed on purpose gonNA probably do it again. Today's episode is supported by traditional medicinal 's created by herbalists. They make organic teas like throat, Coat Cup of calm or lemon ginger, traditional medicinal use high quality herbs that are based on centuries old herbal traditions as the fall and winter set in. You can cozy up with a warm cup of tea that also supports your overall wellbeing sustainably sourced from around the world. You'll feel good enjoying this pepperidge to check these out visit traditional medicinal dot com, and use Code History Twenty for twenty percent off your purchase. Today's episode is supported by Nord Vpn which gives you secure and private access to the Internet. Our producer Ben is going to tell you about his experience. Thank Sally Yeah I think a lot of people now are super concerned about keeping their privacy protected on the Internet and Nord VPN doesn't excellent job keeping my information secure while also maintaining super high connection speeds. Also. Doesn't track my Info and offers a thirty day money back guarantee which makes me feel better about using them. The Internet can be a weird scary place and Nord VPN makes me feel much more comfortable that can browse safely and anonymously. Thanks Ben and right now you can get sixty eight percent off a two year plan plus one additional month for free. When you go to Nord VPN dot com slash history this week or use code history this week. This special offer makes her subscription just three, seventy one per month that's Nord VPN dot com slash his this week to take control of your Internet again. The agents are looking for a killer who might be in their midst. And Fact Decker told us the FBI considered a suspect who for him was very close to home. These letters were mailed from mailbox around Trenton New Jersey I grew up around Trenton New Jersey. So I thought I was pretty much other radar. They never told me. It was a crazy time. The end of two, thousand, one, the letters had stopped coming, but it takes the FBI years to find a culprit. They do investigate an early suspect who looks promising a scientist named Steven Hatfill. People contacted the FBI early in their investigation to voice suspicion that Hatfill was involved. He would have had access to Ames anthrax and the list of people with that access was not long. The FBI follows this lead for a while, but eventually, it starts to fall apart. Hot Phil Wasn't the guy. In fact, he later sues the Justice Department over this and wins a large settlement. So the FBI spends of time and money investigating Hatfill who ultimately turns out not to have done it and years after these attacks there has been no arrest no one to blame. But in two thousand and four, there's finally a new lead from the science a little over two years from when we started the genetic project, we got our first match. That match was a milestone. That was the lead. It's not proof, but it gives them something to go on. It pointed to a microbiologist, a civilian employee at you Sarah. You Sam read is a biodefense facility full name, the United States Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases. The scientists they're looking at. An expert on anthrax his sole job was developed anthrax vaccines and testing. As name is Bruce Islands. Bruce Ivins. Ivan's is someone that the FBI had already talked to during the day to day goings on in the investigation. He was just a typical what we coal nerdy scientists. His screen saver I computer was a cat. Will for kids after work. He would play piano at Church services. He also has some personality quirks. For example, he's obsessed with the activities of one particular college sorority really fixated on it. But of course, quirks don't make you a killer. The thing is questions had actually been swirling around Ivan's for years he been on the person of interest lists in two thousand one because he had access to Ames and decker says, he seemed a little eager to name his coworkers as possible suspects. Ivan's turned over a sample of anthrax from his flask in two thousand two during that big collection effort. After that decker was sometimes at you Sam rid for routine investigation stuff I've been specifically but he'd bumped into Ivan's like in the hallway. She's time I would talk to rbis. He would let slip a little bit about more stuff he had in his freezer more aims the anthrax. So the FBI does another search of the same freezer in December of Oh three and they sees a bunch more anthrax including more samples from Ivan's Flask those samples and having the mutation. That's the match the big lead in the case. But the samples. Ivan's gave willingly in two thousand two don't. To the FBI this makes it seem like Ivan's might have submitted a false sample something he knew wouldn't match the attack anthrax. There's some debate about that but either way they continue looking into Ivan's himself. And they find some circumstantial evidence things that they think look suspicious. In two, thousand and two, he tested his office and his lab for anthrax contamination without permission which was against you, Sam rules. and. When the FBI examines entry and exit records, they find that around the time of the attacks on several occasions Ivan's had been alone in his lab sometimes late at night and stayed there for several hours. It was a new pattern. He hadn't done this before. They find that Ivins had opportunity to send these letters in the timeframe he would have needed to and that the mailbox they were sent from was right near that college sorority he was obsessed with. Eventually the FBI places I've been under surveillance as they're getting their case together to make an arrest, they question him forcefully pushing him on some of his behavior. Ivan's is sort of unraveling. During one of his therapy sessions, he makes some threatening statements about hurting his co workers. At that point is therapists wasn't bound to confidentiality. Threaten to kill people. She told the police in a city detective escorted Bruce from his laboratory and banned him from you sammer grounds. Mile the FBI is close to making their arrest. But before they can do that something terrible happens. Bruce Ivins dies by suicide in two, thousand eight. Ivan's death means the case can never go to trial. It's one of those moments. In law enforcement dread, we can't really close the case satisfactorily there would be no trial there would be no plea no air of evidence. All that would never happen and that's required to really prove somebody in this country. Still. The FBI is pretty sure they had the right guy. And two, thousand and ten the Department of Justice releases a report stating that the evidence uncovered in the investigation quote established that Dr Ivan's alone mailed the anthrax letters. If, they've gone to court prosecutors would have had to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. But they didn't go to court. And some people do have doubts. And Two thousand eleven a panel convened by the national. Academy of Sciences released a report saying that the science alone did not definitively show that the anthrax came from Bruce Evans's flask. They say it certainly could have come from there, but it's not clear beyond a shadow of a doubt there could be other possibilities. Clara Frazier League at one of the main scientists at the FBI worked with told us in an e mail she thinks the investigation had some loosens. She said, the science wasn't inconsistent with the idea that Ivan's could have been the scientists who produced this material. But that quote Ardita did not address who the mail was. Basically the science alone isn't proof. Decker agrees by the way he said it wasn't meant to be proof it was meant as a clue in the investigation. There are some other questions for example, know anthrax spores were ever found at is house or in his car. Remember when that congressional intern opened one of the anthrax letters, it took months to clean the office buildings. So maybe Ivan's didn't. To the mailbox in his car or maybe he was just. Super. Super. Clean. Plus some of Ivan's is co workers have debated whether Ivan's really had the equipment and experience he would have needed to make so much of this deadly powder. The FBI think C. Did and for Scott, decker, the evidence adds up. He's convinced that the FBI got the right guy and he says he's proud of the scientific part of the investigation. The amount of work that was done scientifically huge. was there more could have been done absolutely. What investigation couldn't you do a little bit more. If you had the time resources, we did not have the luxury of time. We had a serial killer on the loose. Able to do this as far as we know anytime, you want because we hadn't arrested or neutralized. On your mind. Sometimes law enforcement people and science people look at the same facts differently. We talked to one journalist David Willman who has covered the anthrax attacks. He told us that in the criminal world things have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. But in the scientific world, it's beyond a shadow of a doubt. And for everyone involved perhaps especially, the American public it's hard to live with any doubt at all in a case with life or death stakes. But the good news is the science is always getting better. The people involved in this case were inventing a whole new field microbial forensics but in the years since that field has gotten more advanced, quicker, cheaper easier. We just no more thanks in part to this investigation. So hopefully, if there is a next time. We'll be ready. Thanks for listening to history this week. For moments throughout history, but are also worth watching, check your local TV listings to find out what's on the history channel today. And for history anytime anywhere sign up for a one month extended free trial of history vault where you can stream over two thousand award winning documentaries m-series from your favorite base with new videos added every week to start your free one-month trial visit history vault, dot com forward slash podcast today. This episode was produced by mckanie Lynn. History. This week is also produced by Julie mcgruder Ben Dickstein, and meet Sally. Helm? Ar- editor and sound designer is Dan Rosado. Are Executive Producers Are Jesse cats and Ted Butler don't forget to subscribe rate and review history this week wherever you get your podcast and we will see you next week. What's new in podcasting? Here's what we love courtesy of a CASS. Recommends? Dust presents season three. Christmas an epic fourteen episodes saw a retribution on a galactic scale. With performances from Hollywood's leading talent. Season three is a FI experience unlike anything in the universe. Stay tuned listen carefully. 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Hour 2: Stan's Nuggets
"The Dan Le Batard Woodstock. Gotcha podcast is brought to you by capital on capitol. One is reimagining banking offering accounts with no fees or minimums that can be opened in five minutes, Capital, One. What's in your wallet Capital One and a member? FDIC. Stugatz claimed during the break that Scott van pelt made him cry last night in talking about how Juwan Howard cried that was pretty cool to see Juwan Howard introduced as the Michigan coach and the meaning so much to him a guy who you know, got one hundred million dollar contract when he was in the league that, that job would mean so much as someone who did the hundred million dollar contract. Guys, usually aren't willing to sit on the end of an NBA bench bright learning how to become an assistant coach. Yes. I mean it was it was interesting to watch goosebumps, for me, your wa not even being able to start the press conference because he was so emotional will be back in Arbor, Michigan play that sound in a second. But Chris Cody was saying that he loves Espy in what he does. And he doesn't understand what s VP does in that he says that. Scott van pelt says the thing that he was thinking, but just better while. But I I've been discussing this week is the one big thing and how it makes us emotional. And it really does Scott's not saying, anything new, he just has a delivery. That makes me cry. I gave last night's one big thing, five tiers, I have a tier system. Five tears last night for one big thing. Yeah. He doesn't come at you with hot takes. He says reasonable things but he just articulates it better than everyone else. So let's hear Juwan Howard here. Ramoche inal being introduced he was at the center of the fab five he was sort of the conservative member of the fab five, Jalen and Chris Webber were more about the swag than he was was rob pulling data. And so here is John Howard's introductory press conference at the tough job because beeline, there had super disciplined teams they always played well, and here's Juwan Howard, stepping inform. Tears of joy. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone. I said, I was gonna cry. They're never happens when you aside about something so special to you. That means so much. Last time, I had a press conference in this building whose nineteen ninety four I declared that I was going to go to the NBA felt like I was leading down my teammates, because I didn't do what I came hit or two. And that was the bring a championship to this university of university dot care so much about just you can see that now. Now, let's fast four twenty five years later, I'm back STAN, where you moved by any of that. Absolutely. And by the fact that you know what you said about these guys who are one hundred million dollar players. I went through it with Patrick Ewing. I mean, who's even a much bigger star than Joon, and then was willing. To serve his time as an assistant coach and, and learn to be great in, in an entirely different line of work. I mean, I have great respect and four Joon like I do for Patrick, and was really moved to see how meaningful it was to him Stu gods. I want to ask you a question because do any of you in the shipping container? Remember John Wehner? Do you remember John Wehner backup? Remember all the ninety seven champion Florida Marlins fan. I spent a year, pretending I was John Wayne. Okay. For those of you do not know. No, you think he's joking. I stand by don't think how he is John Weiner. He pretended because he worked in the Marlins ticket office and got a small World Series ring, not so spa. Listen way. Nizing at the time was very nice. This is the nineteen Ninety-seven World Series. He got every employee a World Series ring, I happen to be. One of those employees the players ring, but I still got a decent. Listen STAN, I think of what a better scam. You can think of in baseball then backup catcher, always wearing a mask who has a name similar to yours. John Wayne, or if you can ignore that he was five six and no major league. Catchers since before Yogi Berra has been five six, if you ignore that Jon wiener was John Wayne her for a year, pretending when he met people that he was the backup catcher for the champions. Stan, yes, because Wayne was the backup catcher and Wayne put everyone's last name on the ring. So my, my last name was Wehner. And so I would just quickly show it to people, and I would tell them I'm John Wayne her back up catcher for the world champion Florida Marlins IVA that worked out. Well for me. He's, you know what I mean? This gusting. Whatever, what are you talking about? Oh, he's reservations, he is a broadcaster now for the Pittsburgh Pirates. And he was, you know, he was considered someone who was fun. But he would not nothing that resembled swagger was ever and his game because backup catchers in baseball, or not allowed to have swagger did point. And so he well, unless you're Paul Baako. So Bob Natal's. Oh, so we've stumbled upon something. So John Wayne said of Derek Dietrich Daria miles Davis. Paul Bach Derek teacher has seventeen home runs against the pirates. He's got like seven home runs in twenty two at bats. He's Babe Ruth all of a sudden he was on pace to break. Barry Bonds is record for home runs per at bat there. And he because he's been pimping out the trots John Wayne, who didn't hit many home runs. Said that Derek Dietrich's grandfather would be rolling over in his grave, if he saw the amount of enjoyment that Derek Dietrich was getting out of hitting his home runs. And I'm just curious as someone who's a baseball fan and you can be anti-fun. I'm curious what you think of what's happening here. No, I, I mean, I think look those guys, especially the guys who aren't gonna hit forty year. Yeah. You gotta have fun when you hit him. I mean I had no problem and that I mean you can go too far. Maybe you know, if you're starting to point it the pitcher and things like that, but you wanna have some fun with, it have fun with it guys backup catcher hall of fame. Oh, here we go. Oh, yeah. Go. First ballot. I'm going to start the bidding itself Asano. Wow. I got you Greg son. Of course. The seaman. Wow. Eddie perez. Am I going to obscure with Scott decker? No, not at all. Not at all. I think I have on guys Bobby Estela. Oh, jolly. O'brien. Do you hate it? Ross. Hey, rod Barajas. Oh, that's a good one in my allowed to say Ramon, Castro. No, no. Why we went over this in the meeting. No Castro's admires a compliance PowerPoint on it. Didn't stay in miss that, meaning the not how do I guess I mentioned I did are we out of how about Don slot? Am I going back to far funny, man, where to get one? I mean he would mash Don slot had a couple of seasons, but like fifteen to twenty homers, I'm telling you. How about Jorges fabric gas? Good to know him in Miami. Great guy pick up that name drop. No. Or, hey, Fabrica put it on the poll is the hor- a fabric, guests namedrop the worst in the history of all drop names. Hoary fabric guests can really catch now. No, you really couldn't. In miami. And he used to run a clinic for like local catchers, everything from youth up through high school, and college guys and go out and drill them on, like Saturday, mornings, and stuff. He was a great great teacher of that stuff too. Yeah. That's a great name or fabric. Gas light de Felice. Your. Vittori alba. Gradulate every Friday, Don slot. Never had a season in which he hit fourteen home runs. He could match, according to Stu gods. I want to do he says soom zoom, and boom boom, I had fifteen to twenty billion couple of, it's never more than thirteen Kelly Tonette. Tonette. Could match that he had to have a couple of fifteen to twenty one car cO. Vice right. We already did corker vice Ron Carter. Vice Matt only was his career high thirteen he did that once and then his other year was ten everything was fours and eights, who was who was the catcher in that platoon with slot in the pirates was it Mike level year. We'll have that right now. Okay. Good. Talk stugatz here. We all love night out, whether it seeing our favorite band in Persian or being there in the ground that you're on our favorite team with vivid seats. You can attend the concert show or sporting event of your choice at a great price. Vivid seats is the top source for tickets for all the live events, you want to go to you could sort by price or look for seats in the section and row of your choice to make things even better vivid seats is giving listeners an exclusive promo code for new customers to receive ten percent off your first ticket. Order to save even more money. How about that? You're going to save even more go to the app store or Google play and download the vivid seats at first time customers can use promo code Dan for ten percent off your first vivid seats order. That's promo code Dan. Every purchase is backed by one hundred percent buyer guarantee from the biggest concerts and games to the hottest theatre, and more vivid seats has it all download the app and enter promo code Dan for ten percent off your first. In order on vivid seats make a memory that lasts a lifetime and let vivid seats help you get to your favorite live events, as we watch these bourbon Godden. I'm Catholic Catholic without stubbing it. He notices it moves, like not at all. It's inanimate and utterly without brain function. But despite that, when it got Nomi his about how gyco not only saves people money but also gives them access to licensed agents twenty four seven online and over the phone. It's clear to them. You should switch because yes switching to Geico is a no brainer on second thought, maybe don't watch God knows to carefully people might talk Dr lebatardshow the best nugget that STAN Van Gundy heads regarding defense is stugatz. Hop defensive teams in the league defend now goes against conventional wisdom. Most team seemed focused. Three the top three defensive teams in the league Milwaukee Indiana. This is two weeks. Guys missing with my nuggets like I'm starting to piss off around. Ridiculous only respect whatsoever. On. Oh my God. This is awful. Alright a minute respect, the nuggets my the kidding. I they dignified, NBA fired coach deserves well, probably the respect that I'm getting, but, but nonetheless, I want to be treated with more respect. This is live at our show with stugatz on ESPN radio. So game one of the NBA finals was last night. Toronto one standing Gundy's been telling you for a while now that Golden State is vulnerable, and he believes that they will lose this season. And Toronto showed you last night that they are not Portland. And before we get to stay in Van Gundy, on this important basketball day, though. I need to know why it is that you were arguing with your computer during the break about first blood, thus triggering shipping container argument about speed to the movie. Speed. What was the name of the sequel to speed cruise control for Israel? Yeah. So we were I was watching. We were watching the preview for last blood yesterday, which is the latest. And what people think is the final Rambo movie, not so fast. My friend Nate Taylor on Twitter says its last blood because he dies at the end. Nate. Thanks, Rambo dies, Rambo never dies. In fact, when Rambo dies, he's still alive, Rambo just want you to think that he's dead. But he's actually never dead natives falling forward, faking that Rambo's actually gonna die never going to die ever just want you to think that he is disappeared off the funny. This result in a speed to arguments. Delone takes you to speed to every time we got to speed to cruise control in speed big act. You know, big dumb action movies will because the aunt finally was about leeches and Willem Defoe and speed two. Cruise control the loan that he took. With him onto the cruise ship speed two. Cruise control. I saw for the first time this weekend. Incredible eight is such a good movie. The only bad part about it. No chemistry between Sandra Bullock and Jason Patric. But besides that it is an incredible was arguing during the break better than speed. Other than by did out of here better than speed. I'm telling you, it had Ed re thing, and it had everything on a ship, which is ten times better than everything on a bus. It had everything except the chemistry between the main two SARS, which is an important that wasn't a there was a sequel. Gortat Bullock Kiana read that was the fo- vehicle to fo- great villain. Nope. Heels as grow better villain. No. Yeah. He's villain. Okay. I saw it is critically panned as possibly the worst the release of a sequel ever four on rotten tomatoes. And it's got an audience score of sixteen percent. That is, maybe the lowest audience score I've ever seen. That's all politics. I'm telling you, this was a great movie. The only thing I didn't get about it. Why didn't they just get off the cruise ship? At a certain point. They were trying to stop the cruise ship from crashing into the oil tanker spoiler alert and then crashing into land. And guess what? It crashed into Landon, destroyed the town anyways. So why didn't they get off the ship because the bombs go off, at least because remember, Willem Dafoe, smuggle bombs on there as well as they were fakes? They weren't real bombs give it. They didn't know that. What are the mill? No. No, Jason Patric figured it out. It wasn't real fires. He told everybody in the galley. Right. Isn't that what it's called the galley is where the captain. He said. Guys, check the fires. They're not real fires. It's just sulphur. That's burning the set off fire alarms. It wasn't real fires. He tricked everybody. Edgy is in Patrick was onto him from the beginning when he saw him sitting next to sandy at the bar. I know that's not her name. But that's her name in real life saw him sitting next door at the bar all of his golf equipment. And he said that guy suspicious he brought on his golf clubs and all the golf balls. And he's not watching golf on the TV at all. They could've stopped it from the start. But they didn't listen to Jason Patric, which they should have another thing. I didn't get about that God. Why is it that when he was chasing him through the ship? Why was he shooting at the giant monitor that had his face on it? Clearly, he's not in the monitor Jason Patric shooting, the TV's does nothing but waste rounds of your shotgun from ski shootings which used to be a thing on cruise ships. You used to be able to shoot skeet off the side of a cruise ship. How crazy is that? I know it's happening here billion I love cruises. No, no. If you think that watching speed two cruise control did anything to get me back on a cruise ship. You're sadly mistaken. There is no way. That I'm gonna look look the next time I'm going to cruise ship. If see anybody with golf clubs, I, I'm telling you, I'm getting off that boat or I'm alerting someone in the staff. Listen, let's have you seen cruise control. Those are not golf balls. Those are not golf clubs. There's little mechanisms inside of the Gulf things and. The golf balls or fake bomb. Don't reference speed to on a cruise by the way they have signs all over the place. You can't like an airport. You don't say the b word. Put these things. Thank you for the helpful elaborate. The b word. You're using was bombed there because you didn't want people to think it was the other be were. Okay. Very good. So put this on the poll game. If you don't mind, does anyone in the world, call, Sandra Bullock, sandy and also is rotten tomatoes. All politics. Without a doubt. Taking the history of the show Jews better than I believe that I believe that you just defended the single worst day can show is three two is better than speed. That is straight talk. It is brought to you by straight talk wireless. Everything for less only at WalMart. Stand any thoughts here after game, one of the NBA final speed to everything that. No. I don't want it on game one on everything. That was just discussed here. I haven't seen speed let alone speed too. So. If you wanna see to SOS with a chemistry that is so obvious to the eye with a bad guy that gets you invested in a story, and the tragic passing of hairy, played by Jeff Daniels, and you're gonna wanna watch Pete. Did I ruined that part for you? It hurts. This is how I some of speed to for you stand. Imagine all the Chicago's rolled up into one and put on a cruise ship. That's how great it is. Okay. Here's how I described speed shoot the hostage. Spoiler alert. They sabotage that it's common thread throughout the movies, Dan. What is the biggest dumbest movie that you enjoy? Like you're not a big dumb movie fan. Are you? I don't know. All right. Stay. And that's an excellent end of the second. Really was good. Wasn't it donlevatar get up or sportscenter? Stugatz get up all day. In the morning, so not all day, but you're blaspheming against ESPN signature franchise. Do like VP is Stephen A on either of those shows that day, sometimes you goes on get up sometime so you have to take that into account. It does get up man myself sportscenter all day, every day. No problem these live at our show with Stu gods on ESPN radio. So we'll get to stand van Gundy's hot basketball nuggets in a second. But before we do that we were talking yesterday Stu gods? About the idea that you can't just parachute in to an NBA finals after not playing for a while and be yourself and up to speed and even be able to keep up stamina wise and so- cousins comes out yesterday, and he gives them eight minutes, and he does nothing while he's out there because the games moving very fast, and it's hard to simulate and rehab how fast the game is moving. But STAN, what I wanted to ask you is there now. Reports coming out that the warriors are positive that Kevin Durant will appear here before the end of this series and given the injury, how long it normally takes and given that it is hard to just descend out of the sky and play in the finals. What is reasonable to expect from Kevin Durant when he does return? Well, I mean for most people, you wouldn't expect a whole lot, but it's Kevin Durant. I mean this guy's been incredible. Every time he stepped on a cord is entire career. So my expectations would be that he'd play really well, and he'll probably come back and dropped twenty five points in and make an incredible contribution to them. The question to me that that's more valid is win. Is he going to come back? In other words, if they get too far down in this series, it may not make a difference, even if he can help them. I think he needs to come back. Like if he can, I imagine? Kevin Durant is begging people. Hey, I wanna come back. I'm ready to go right now. This is the perfect opportunity for Kevin Durant to come back because Dan, I'm telling you, you don't wanna come back after the team's winning. You wanna come back after a loss of people are starting to question, the Golden State Warriors, and I'll tell you, if the rant comes back and they win and real off four straight win the title eight six game. Seventy it doesn't even matter, he'll finally, get the validation that he's so badly covets it hasn't received since he joined the Golden State Warriors. I'd come back tomorrow. Well, that's if he can. I mean, the good party doesn't care about that part the if he hadn't part doesn't, whether I can or not if I want the validation, I'm even if I went onto the court and give them a Willis Reed minutes enough. Yeah, yeah, he was Riedel help them enough. I agree. I just love that. He has to come back and you don't care about the if he can't. Time now for standby detail. I'm now for standing Gundy's basketball nuggets in your face. And now time for in goodies top NBA nuggets Sony Friday shoe. The thing. Stand. Is there a theme this week there is how important is game one in the NBA fine? Oh. Downright to God says a pen down for some reason name one writing this down seventy one percent of the time. Yes, I don't I hope you don't ruin it. Number three, the third best nugget, according to STAN Van Gundy is in the last forty years. The home team is one game one thirty one times in gone on to win the championship. Twenty four of those thirty one years. However, in the last eight years, the winner of game one has won the series four times and lost the series four times. One percent Mike. But stand updated it to give you last eight four and four. That was a big. However, yes, I think, however, fifty fifty there in the last date stand, the second best knocked it is the last four times the team without homecourt advantage in the finals has won the championship they have done. So after losing game one in fact two of the last four teams to win the championship despite not having homecourt advantage. Have lost the first two games on the road, the Cavs in twenty sixteen in the heat in two thousand and six. Stand is making the argument against his Toronto Raptors pick. And the number one nugget from STAN Van Gundy is we're homecourt advantage. Really matters is in game seven nineteen NBA final series of gun seven games in the home team has won fifteen of them, including six of the last seven that's why in the last forty years, ten of the eleven championships who didn't champions who did not have homecourt advantage finished off the series in six games or fewer. I also have a nugget that might work against the Toronto. Raptors who seeming Gundy and myself have publicly picked to win this series. Did you publicly pick it the arguments? They're good gambling value. I took them, especially if the doesn't come back forget about it just like saving Gundy, I agree. And we'll REVEAL OUR picks at the end of the series. We all put them in envelopes. But out of all the plus two hundred series price dogs in the NBA finals, only one of the nineteen has ever won the series. I assume maybe the Mavs or the Cavs that came back three one. No, the pistons are the only one of nineteen that series price of two hundred or better, plus two hundred or better or higher. Odds to actually win the series would this be viewed because Toronto and Golden State of essentially had the same season. This is as vulnerable as Golden State has looked throughout the season. And this Toronto team is the. And the hint history of that country. And it's, it's an excellent basketball team, a formidable challenge. But when you've got on the entire NBA, countdown set, everybody picked the raptors to win the series, everybody how big of an upset would this really be if Toronto is able to do this because they're a big underdog in Vegas. And I saw some quotes anonymous quotes from a warriors players, saying, why are we such a big underdog against a big favourite against Toronto, and it's their history. How big upset would it be if Toronto does what you think they're going to do? I don't think it's an upset at all. I mean, you've got the warriors missing their leading score at least for one game. He missed a game Toronto has home court. Like you said. They basically had the same regular season record. I don't know why it would be considered an upset at all. I mean I do know why it's because. The warriors have done the last four years. But we're playing this year and there's nothing to indicate this year that this would be an upset. That's, that's pretty staggering to say, though, is it not? I think it is. I think most people before the series would've told you before your arm with hey rafters up wanted nothing. I think people would have said, yeah, it would be a massive upset if Toronto was able to pull this off odd to me, it really what we're talking about a team that's one three championships in four years. You have to bet three hundred dollars to win one hundred dollars on the warriors winning the series. That makes Toronto in terms of just betting odds. It makes them one of the biggest underdogs in the history of the finals, and if they were to win it. There aren't a lot of teams you're ever going to be able to point to that as might just told you Detroit's the only one when they were playing Shaq. And Kobe, the only one that was a plus two hundred underdog and the raptors. Yeah, they're a hell of an outline. I think they were plus four hundred start. In that series. But only one of the nineteen. Plus, you under better. What so okay, this is all based on reputation and the thought that Golden State will just figure it out, because they always have combined with STAN the thing that I think sways people, whether you're overreacting to the Portland series or not. Is that stat that they're thirty two and one when Durant doesn't play? And when curry does, that's only the second time in whatever it is thirty four games. That that's happened what we saw last night. No, I look at it has been staggering what they've been able to do without Durant. The Portland series to me was a little bit of an outlier number one. I don't think that Portland while they're decent defensively they're nowhere near Toronto defensively. And I think that makes a huge difference in this in this series. So, you know, I just think Toronto's a lot better team or at least matches up a lot better than than Portland. Does. With Golden State. Look, I don't there's no I make money moves Michelle Beedle couldn't believe that the entire NBA countdown death took the raptors and Jalen rose couldn't believe that his pick stung when he heard Paul Pierce, pick, the raptor, because Paul Pierce has become a national laughing stock, when it comes to the prediction all over NBA arenas anyway, there, there has been very good. Paul Pierce, a hall of fame player at fine. He has become a prediction court. Jester Jalen rose was mortified when Paul Pierce pick. The same thing he did. So it's like you wanna rip up tickets? It's like. It's like Moshe I can't remember the name of the Bronx dab motion abroad stale where if he bent the same ores as you did you rip up your ticket, because you have no shot at winning. And that's Ronald fans were chanting Paul Pierce sucks. Haven't with them. This is becoming a national phenomenon just because he put him. So Dwayne Wade did job by the truth, though. Right. So weird. Donlevatar punctuate this segment with what is your strike? Three call strike. One would be, and then you stand up, and you have a good point to the right to guts that same for strike but straight through you get down low. You got your hands behind the catcher. All right. The right arm goes up into the air. And then you finish it with the punch right way up into the air. Wish I see that they're gonna ios. This is live at our show with this two guys on ESPN radio. So stamping Gundy's going to leave us after this segment. So we have to squeeze all the juice out of the Van Gundy that we can in this segment. I wanna hear his thoughts on the foul ball netting in baseball. I also want to hear his thoughts on what he and Jeff have privately been texting each other back and forth in regards to this Lakers, mess, every time Magic Johnson's on ESPN but before we get to that, Mike, I don't know what we're gonna do with Stu gods. He is right now a victim of the gypsies curse may, you get everything that you want. He's getting all the TV appearances radio appearances he wants. He's tired. He is just ES a sprinkler, a lawn sprinkler of takes in every direction. He's talking all the time and this is what he just blurted it me inexplicably from a piece of paper. He spent writing down the entire break. When? He could have been arrested, Dan. I have the six steps to validation and I'm looking at him. Like, what are you talking about any like you gotta, you gotta get to the six steps to validation? And I'm like, why are you writing that down? And he didn't explain it. So can you explain that? Now play yet. These are these six to Kevin Durant, validation. Now there might be more steps here, but I'll write them down as they happen. Okay. So step one get hurt. Step to rehab the injury. Step three leaguer report to Ramona Shelburne that the warriors internally are very nervous at don't think they could beat the raptors without Kevin Durant step for lose game one step five day after losing game one long shot to return for game two step six just let it sit. Okay. So that's the portion where now the just let it sit portion of the six steps without him. Now he's validated. I mean at the moment. Well, he no he's inching closer to validation. Just let that sit long shot. The thing you'll remember head into the weekend is, Katie is a long shot to play on Sunday longshot, now, wait till, well, step by step seven's going to be heroin return. Right, heroic. I'll write it down as it happens standard. Good. Thank you. No. But my question is so stugatz, if Kevin Durant comes back, Carey's this warrior team to a championship does this one count for him in your personal record book. So it depends if he comes back on it goes, a nickname, they down one two or three hundred. Does he play in Madison Square Garden next year? How many qualifiers Chauncey Billups was getting ripped by everybody because he was asked for a prediction. He's like raptors and seven if Iran doesn't come back. So he threw out the qualifier and people don't want the nuance of it. We've got two minutes left with STAN Van Gundy. Give me everything you got on foul ball netting. Well, it's a pretty simple one. I mean it's dangerous those, those foul ball line drives down the line are dangerous. We had a woman get killed last August. We have a little girl get hurt the other day. And the solution is so simple and so cheap based on what major league baseball makes put netting down the lines, there's no argument against it. That makes any sense why they won't do it. I mean this whole idea of tradition, and all of that, please stop. We do not need people. Go into watch baseball game and getting hurt or killed the argument that is made on behalf of no netting. Is you're paying a lot for those seats in the views a lot better without the netting. Yeah. Really? And that's why the seats behind home plate or. So cheap. Blue. I mean. Did he take care? Painting. Trump. Right. A minute. Okay. Fair enough. I get dunked on my argument. He's saying. Terry, and I got dunked on my standing Gundy on something I don't believe he was just saying there is no argument was their zombie talking on the air writing Jan. Yeah. Stand, give me the last minute that you're here with us giving me all of your private texts. You and Jeff Van Gundy, laughing at the Lakers and Magic Johnson on television. Everyone calling everyone else the, the person that deserves the blame. Now, I it's unbelievable. I mean it just I mean it's so dysfunctional and everybody to me. Everybody wants to talk about it, and they all come off looking badly when they do just just let it go magic moved on the Lakers are moving on. They should just get back to trying to, to play basketball. And I really feel bad for Frank Vogel. I mean you know the news of him becoming the head coach and him being in there has taken such a back seat because of all of this. That's a long tax. Yeah, I can't imagine them going back and forth, and I can imagine, it's a lot more. Als.
Best Of: Stan Van Gundy
"The Dan Le Batard Woodstock. Gotcha podcast is brought to you by capital on capitol. One is reimagining banking offering accounts with no fees or minimums that can be opened in five minutes, Capital, One. What's in your wallet Capital One and a member FDIC? This is the Dan lebatardshow with stugatz podcasts. So we moved the whole schedule around to react game, one of the finals, where gloating STAN Van Gundy could join us because he's been the only one saying all season that Golden State is going to lose. Because if you're basing it on the regular season, I think you might say that Toronto deserves to be equal or a favorite against Golden State. If you're just basing it on what happened the season to give STAN even more credit. He said that the likely opponent would come out of the east, the team that could beat Golden State would likely come out of the Eastern Conference. It's one game. And Mike is taking a victory lap for some reason on CRM. I don't know why he's taking a victory lap on Seok by just pushing back on you. When you kind of dismissed him as not a future max contract, put at the W tonight or Siachen. He was great last night, and he was great against Draymond green, which is hard to do. But if you look at the numbers of Siaka, I'm Wendy. Co is on the court shoots forty nine percent. And when he's not he should twenty nine percent like opens up a lot for Siachen, but we'll get to stand in the second. I just was very excited after game, one when I get a text from STAN, because I'm like this is going to teach me something I'm gonna learn about the sport. And instead the text read, I'm up stairs. Hopi is out is in which means that STAN was just texting someone else in his home. I guess your dog's name our Opie. And what is the other one Eastwood? Okay, Eastwood, e for short is that after Clint Eastwood, why is it easy? No. They he was found on Eastwood avenue in traverse bay Michigan like abandoned. So that's what they named him. Very nice. What about Opie Opie was named after Opie and the Andy Griffith show, red hair? No happy, eighty ninth birthday to Clint Eastwood happy birthday to him. I don't care. Good luck. Alright. Stan. So tell us what you saw last night. Well, I thought Toronto's defense was was outstanding force or warriors into seventeen turnovers. They really got out on the fast break twenty four fast-break points. I know Steve Kerr was upset about that. That's something Golden State's to have to correct Seok. It's been interesting with him because he had a really good series against Orlando against philli. They went back and forth in their matchups. And when they played big on him with Embiid struggled struggled in the Milwaukee series with link, but Golden State doesn't have any links with Durant out right now. There's just no link on that roster and socio com even against a really good defender. Like Draymond green is going to be effective. Because if you look at him and what he's done throughout the play offs against smaller guys. He's had his way, but he struggles with big guys of which the warriors have none. And then Fred van Vliet was was great again. Didn't shoot it as well from three but defensively was tremendous. He drove. The ball he made shots. I mean, they were great have they been able to keep Golden State off the glass a little bit better. Would have even been an easier win, Golden State really stayed in the game. I think they got five or six threes off second chance opportunities. That's what kept them in it. But I thought it was a great start for Toronto. Van Vliet hasn't done anything wrong since you said he was awful. That's exactly right. That is absolutely right. Yeah. He has the last four games the last three games of that Milwaukee series. And then last night, he's been outstanding. I think he was fourteen of seventeen from three over the last three games at a Milwaukee series last night, not nearly as good shooting the ball, but still played extremely well, staying I'm wondering if you're the if you're the raptors you have any concern because you're not certain Siaka m- can maintain that in fact, let's just say he cannot maintain that. That's ridiculous. What he did last night. You got a great game from Marcus soul. You didn't get a good game from Igwe Dala. Draymond green was it. Very good. So. Wondering and Golden State still had chances in that game or in the game in the second hand dollars not making anything. I think he's missed his last eleven threes. And one of the games they were just letting him shoot the through so it's Dan, you had all that going on. Plus, all the emotion, you're at home and Golden State had a chance. He only won by nine points. Any concern there? There's no question. I mean, look, you're, you're playing the warriors. I mean you know teams in the finals for the fifth straight year. I mean you're going to be concerned in that series. Even if you go up three to nothing until you get the fourth win. You've got to be concerned against Golden State, and they're certainly things Golden State can do if they take care of the ball, a little bit better and do a better job getting back on defense. Even just those two things that are pretty basic, the whole game changes for them. So, yeah, there's certainly reason to be concerned in Toronto has to rebound better. And they can't put Steph curry on the line as much as they did last night. I mean they're they're playing with fire. Are there? So, yeah, this is only game one people tend to over react to the first game of series. And. You know, long long way to go. I still think, though for Golden State the win this series. They're going to have to get Kevin Durant. Not only back, but back in productive. And I don't know if that's possible at this point, I'm not sure of the extent of his who don't think they can beat Toronto without Kevin Durant period. I'd be I'd be surprised. Thirty two and one without Durant before last night. Thirty two and one. Yeah. No, I understand. But you gotta understand the last two years. What Kevin Durant has done in the finals? I mean last year he averages about twenty nine points. A game on true shooting percentage of sixty five percent the year before he averages thirty five in the finals on a sh- true shooting percentage of near seventy. I mean this guy's been outstanding. It's a huge loss not to have him, and particularly when you're playing a defense of Toronto's, caliber. I mean you need more scoring options and then at the defensive end he's an underrated defender and what they're really lacking against Toronto is link. And so they just don't have anybody right now to match up with Siaka now. I don't expect Siaka GMs getting thirty two every night. But I think he's gonna be very effective in this series. If Durant doesn't play because his history has been that he is a -ffective even against good defenders if they're small if he can go over the top. He's a great finisher. He struggled with that. He couldn't go over the top against Milwaukee with Janas in he had a really tough series. He shot forty percent and really struggled. And so they need Durant. I think or they don't win this series, the places that they could use to ranches pop out of the screen when you watch and this and as as much as we were overreacting, possibly to the war, sweep of Portland without Kevin Durant, Portland. Actually led the majority of that series by pretty surprisingly wide margin. They just choked at the end of games. They didn't have the height to shoot over guys when Golden State ramped up their defense, Kevin Durant is absolutely needed in this series when you have defenders wing defenders like Siaka, and Kawhi, Leonard, can you explain something to me about Drake? Drake's popularity. And if anyone in the history of music has been this popular while being this dorky because I feel like people have turned on Drake. He's out there yesterday talking trash with Draymond green do we know if that trashy was talking was written for him by somebody else, or did he come up with it on his own with your assault on Drake? Honestly, because I think people coming around on this Drake thing, because if there's one thing people hate more than Drake is a Golden State Warriors dynasty. We want to see that end. This is fun. Come on, man. He's wearing think Drake's been fun anyway. I don't I don't get that whole story like I've got this celebrity guy who's got great enthusiasm for his team. I think it's fun. I don't think look he hasn't done anything. It's not like he's out there assaulting other players. I don't see him going crazy on referees. This guy is having fun about the raptors being there. I think it's. Good for the games. I think it's enjoyable. I don't understand the controversy at all. Stephen eight doesn't depth up nerds, Dan Cevennes went up, and he showed Drake, some respect and United straight back and he was happening with nerds, please. I am stunned that stand in Gundy just came out during the NBA finals as profile on pro Drake and that, you know what I'm gonna go sit in the penalty box for being no fun guy when I've gone on the on the wrong side of standing Gundy. No, I'm a fun guy. I mean that's what I'm known for. I mean I'm synonymous with fund in. That's what I'm all about heads. Oviedo. I don't know what that is. Donlevatar mustard mixes with manny's better than ketchup. Does. What, what? Yes. No. What you've just said is appalling what you've just said, is an offence to anyone who's ever eaten. Still gots catch up. Oh my God. I don't like it on anything, but what catch your on American VC's live with our show with Stu gods on ESPN radio? Stand do you have the ability to not listen to the next thirty seconds of what we're doing here because I want the room to predict which way you're going to go on something. But I don't want you to be able to hear us as we do it. So can you just put down your headset for like thirty seconds and let us talk amongst ourselves, and we'll get to know when to come back on just look at thirty seconds? Just let thirty seconds text you. I'll text you. Okay. Do it. What is the opinion of the room on? What STAN Van Gundy take is going to be about the Houston Rockets, seemingly unwilling to extend Dan, Tony and blowing out most of his staff. Oh, he's getting rip Daryl Mauri. The rockets owners management for getting rid of coaches that were might dantonio guys and Houston was great. And what more do you want? No one's come closer to beat in the Golden State Warriors, in the west, the last two years, he's going to say that might DeAnne Tony he deserves a five year extent. Yeah. Ten year extension. Yeah. Life track that everybody coach got said, Yep. Yep. I don't have it prediction as to what he'll say, other than I think he'll utter the phrase, no question. Okay. So we'll see what happens there. Whenever STAN Van Gundy returns, I'd like to get to the outrage in the other room over the spelling bee. I would like to get to what it is that I was just saying during the break, and before the break, that people are objecting to which is wasn't Toronto, if we're just looking at this season, not remembering history uniforms or anything. We know wasn't Toronto, just as good as Golden State this season. I mean they were fifty eight and twenty four. The warriors were fifty seven at twenty five. Some would argue at least in years past that the west is tougher. I would say the east was defensive Rainsy's ofensive ratings, everything else, it, the, the Golden State Warriors are that kind of favorite because of their pass not because of their present. We'll also because, you know Kevin Durant, and the fact that he could come back and probably will come back at some point in this series. So STAN, welcome back. And what would you have snow about how you've received all of the news, coming out of Houston on Mike dantonio lame duck status contract talks? Breaking apart and them taking away his staff. Yeah, it's been pretty crazy there to be quite honest for a team that has had the success that they've had. There's no question that, you know, they have given the warriors the biggest battles over the last couple of years of anybody in the league, the fact that they wouldn't just extend to Mike end his staff is something that's a little confusing to me. It was really interesting with Jeff is delic- because Jeff basically retired in the off season. And then they got off to a really poor start, and it was mainly because their defense was awful. They brought him back their defense stabilized. They played well the rest of the year and we're basically from that point on a top ten different. And then they got rid of Jeff does Delic and made some comment about we've got to move forward. So, yeah, it's been a little bit crazy doing. Well, I mean for bid for me to know what they should be doing. I'm not sure their rosters championship roster. But. I mean, I think Mike dantonio seem to want three years. I don't understand why his performance there in Houston, wouldn't marry a three year guaranteed contract. I mean it said in the reports that it was in incentive based offer. I mean that doesn't make sense to me for somebody of Mike's status in what he's done there in Houston. So I would think you'd want some stability. You know, I would think you'd give Mike the three years, let Mike, pick his staff and move forward. But that doesn't seem to be the way they're going to go about it. What would you give Mike if you're making the decisions for the rockets, what would you give them among these scissors among these choices three years? Five years. Ten years lifetime deal. Well, I'm not doing lifetime deal. I'm not doing ten years. I mean, you know, three to five in there somewhere. Look, Mike's Mike Mike everything he said, says three years. So he's not it's not like he's out there, trying to get five or six years, he wants three years. I don't see why that's not reasonable based on what he's accomplished in Houston. So my right we're way, how what percentage of right where we in predicting what standing Gundy's opinion would be coach bias and him supporting every coach. That is publicly in turmoil. There's no question. We were all right. Here's the thing. I mean like is there somebody there who thinks that Mike Antonis performance has not been good enough to merit three years of a straw, man on our point? He's been. All right. You're right now staying right? He's maximized is maximized and change the way that team played. They can't be a lot better than they've been. How much better would they be? Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean the really look at that roster. And think there's a lot more there than than what they're doing. You've got Chris Paul. Who's who's a really smart tough player still good. But in decline. Clint cappella, I like but, you know, he's limited in what he can do the other guy, Eric Gordon's pretty good can give you some scoring but is probably best suited coming off the bench in the other guys are suited to stand in the corner and shoot the ball when it comes to them. I mean there's not a whole lot there. I don't know how you get more out of that roster. Moreover. Year-over-year. We thought last year's rockets team was better than this year's, and that bared to be true didn't it? I don't know. I mean you know, I it's probably I mean probably because they got to game seven this year, they lost in six so I guess a little bit better. But not a whole lot of difference. I think Mike's done a good job. I don't think they're necessarily playing the way, Mike would love to see the game of basketball played and I give him credit for that. I say that as a compliment, because I think what he's done is. He's looked at the limitations of his roster. He said, this is the best way for us to play. We're not going to do a lot of movement. We're not gonna run. I mean like his teams did in Phoenix James Harden's, our guy, we're gonna play a very methodical gain pick and roll in isolation. And let James go to work. I don't know if if that will work against the best teams in a long playoff series. But it's it's gotten them a long way. With a limited roster. Joe? Many money as a fired executive who used to have all the power, how many teams in the league do you see that would look at the Chris Paul contract and say, we want that how many landing spots, you see, for Chris Paul. Well, I don't think that anybody's necessarily going to, to one that though, I wouldn't count a team like the Lakers out, you know, bring an Intel a to play with LeBron. I wouldn't count that out. But I think more likely if they wanna make Chris Pohl deal, they're going to have to incentivize teams with draft picks, and things like that, to take Chris Paul. And then try to use the money elsewhere but I don't anticipate him moving. I think it would be an it would be difficult. But he'll let's say LA goes out in free agency and strikes out. They might be willing to take on that money, it goes right along with LeBron's money and play out the next three years, and see what happens and go from there. That's the possibility I think, gosh, more of the Dan labor. Dr show with stugatz, ten to one eastern on ESPN radio and ESPN news, stugatz here. We all love night out, whether it's seeing our favorite band in person or being there in the ground that you're on our favorite team with vivid seats, you can attend the concert show or sporting event of your choice at a great prize vivid seats is the top source for tickets for all the live events, you want to go to you could sort by price or look for seats in the section and row of your choice to make things even better vivid sees is giving listeners, an exclusive promo code for new customers to receive ten percent off your first ticket order to save even more money. How about that? You're going to save even more go to the app store or Google play and download the vivid seats app. First time customers can. Use promo code Dan for ten percent off your first vivid seats order. That's promo code Dan. Every purchase is backed by one hundred percent buyer guarantee from the biggest concerts and games to the hottest theatre, and more vivid seats has it all download the app and enter promo code Dan, for ten percent off your first order on vivid seats, make a memory that lasts a lifetime and let vivid seats help you get to your favorite live events. They always told will he was too short to play basketball, but will never listen. We'll let his work as a do the talking for him. Always in the gym always running drills. We'll new where there was a will there was a way and he was will. But then after a second child was born he realized the pros were all way better than him. So we'll give up and buried his high tops in a tearful ceremony. But one day he heard that gyco could save money on car insurance. So he switched and saved a bunch, which was awesome. Stugatz claimed that during the break that Scott van pelt made him pry last night in talking about how Juwan Howard cried that was pretty cool to see Juwan Howard introduced is the Michigan coach and it the meaning so much to him a guy who got one hundred million dollar contract when he was in the league that job would mean so much as someone who did the hundred million dollar contract. Guys, usually aren't willing to sit on the end of an NBA bench bright learning how to become an assistant coach. Yes. I mean it was it was interesting to watch goosebumps for me. Jawad not even being able to start the press conference because he was so emotional be back in Arbor, Michigan going to play that sound in a second. But Chris Cody was saying that he loves s VP and what he does. And he doesn't understand what s VP does in that he says that Scott van pelt says the thing that he was thinking, but just better well. Chris, I been discussing this week is the one big thing and how it makes us emotional. And it really does Scott's not saying, anything new, he just has a delivery. That makes me cry. I gave last night's one big thing, five tiers, I have a tier system. Five tears last night for one big thing. Yeah. He doesn't come at you with hot takes. He says reasonable things but he just articulates it better than everyone else. So let's hear Juwan Howard here. Ramoche inal being introduced he was at the center of the fab five he was sort of the conservative member of the fab five, Jalen, and Chris Webber were more about the swag than he will as was rob Pelinka. And so here is John Howard's introductory press conference. It's a tough job because beeline, there had super disciplined teams they always played well, and here's Juwan Howard stepping in for him. Well. Tears of joy. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone. I said, I was gonna cry. I guess they never happens when you aside about something so special to you that means so much. Last time, I had a press conference in this building whose nineteen ninety four I declared that I was going to go to the NBA felt like I was letting down my teammates, because I didn't do what I came hit or two and that was the bring a championship to this university of university dot care so much about just you can see that now. Now, let's past four twenty five years later. I'm back STAN where you moved by any of that. Absolutely. And by the fact that you know what you said about these guys who are one hundred million dollar players. I went through it with Patrick Ewing. I mean, who's even a much bigger star than Joon, and then was willing to serve his time as an assistant coach and, and learn to be great in, in an entirely different line of work. I mean, I have great respect and four Joon like I do for Patrick, and was really moved to see how meaningful it was to him Stu gods. I want to ask you a question because do any of you in the shipping container? Remember John Wehner? You remember John, Wayne or backup? Remember all the ninety seven champion Florida Marlins fan. I spent a year, pretending I was John Wayne. Okay. For those of you do not know. No. You think he's joking? Stand by don't think he is John Weiner. He pretended because he worked in the Marlins ticket office and got a small World Series ring, not so spa. Illicit way, nizing at the time was very nice. This is the one thousand nine hundred seven World Series. He got every employee a World Series. Ring I happen to be one of those employees. I didn't get the players ring, but I still got a decent. Listen STAN, I think of what a better scam. You can think of in baseball then backup catcher, always wearing a mask as a name similar to yours. John, Wayne, or if you could ignore that he was five six and no major league catchers ins before Yogi Berra has been five six, if you ignore that Jon wiener was John Wayne her for a year, pretending when he met people that he was the backup catcher for the champion. Stan, yes, because or was the backup catcher and Wayne put everyone's last name on the ring. So my, my last name was Wehner. And so I would just quickly show it to people. And I would tell them I'm John Wayne or backup catcher for the. World champion Florida Marlins. I've that worked out well for me. You know what I mean, gusting whatever, what are you talking about? He's reservations, he is a broadcaster now for the Pittsburgh Pirates. And he was, you know, he was considered someone who was fun. But he would not, you know, nothing that resembled swagger was ever in his game because backup catchers in baseball, or not allowed to have swagger did point. And so he well, unless you're Paul Baako. So Bob Natal's. Oh, so we've stumbled upon something here. John Wayne said of Derek Dietrich Derek miles Davis, Paul Bach. Garrick teacher has seventeen home runs against the pirates. He's got like seven home runs in twenty two at bats. He's Babe Ruth all of a sudden he was on pace to break. Barry Bonds is record for home runs per at bat there. And he because he's been pimping out the trots John Wayne, who didn't hit many home. Runs. Said that Derek Dietrich's grandfather would be rolling over in his grave, if he saw the amount of enjoyment that Derek Dietrich was getting out of hitting his home runs. And I'm just curious as someone who's a baseball fan and you can be anti-fun. I'm curious what you think of what's happening here. No, I mean, I think look those guys especially to guys who aren't going to hit forty a year. Yeah. You gotta have fun. When you hit him. I mean I had no problem and that I mean you can go too far. Maybe you know, if you're starting to point at the pitcher and things like that, but you wanna have some fun with, it have fun with it guys backup catcher hall of fame. Oh, here we go. Go first ballot. I'm going to start the bidding itself is on. Oh, wow. I got you Greg son. Of course, a seaman. Wow. Eddie perez. Am I going to obscure with Scott decker? No, not at all. Not at all going. I think I have on guys Bobby delay. Charlie o'brien. Do you hate it? Ross. Hey, rod Barajas. Oh, that's a good one in my allowed to say Ramon, Castro. No, no. Why don't we went over this in the meeting? No Castro's in my compliance PowerPoint on it. That stand miss that, meaning the not how do I guess? I did we out of a how about Don slot? Am I going back to far too funny to go? No. I mean he would mash Don slot had a couple of seasons fifteen to twenty homers. I'm telling you. How about Jorges? Hey fabric gas. Got to know him in Miami. Great guy pickup, that name edges drum up. No. Or hey. Fabrica. Put it on the poll is the horror. Hey, Fabra guests namedrop the worst in the history of all drop names. Horry Fabra guests can really catch now. Really couldn't. In miami. And he used to run. Clinic for like local catchers, everything from youth up through high school, and college guys and go out and drill them on, like Saturday, mornings, and stuff. He was a great teacher of that stuff too. Yeah. That's a great name fabrics. Like deeply. Your vittorio. Every Friday, Don slot. Never had a season in which he hit fourteen home runs. He could match according to God's. I wanna do. Som. Som and boom boom, I had fifteen twenty billion couple of it's never more than thirteen Kelly than that. That he had have a couple of fifteen to twenty anyone carcass, right? We already did Kharkov ice. Ron Carter vice Matt only was his career high thirteen he did that once and then his other year was ten everything was fours and eights, who was who was the catcher in that platoon with slot in the pirates was it Mike level year. Have that right now? Okay. Good talk. Donlevatar get up or sportscenter. Guts, get up all day. In the morning, so not all day, but you're blaspheming against ESPN signature franchise. Do VP is Stephen on either of those shows that day sometimes egos, get up sometimes so yet to take that into account. Get up man myself sportscenter all day everyday. No problem. These live at our show with this two guys on ESPN radio. So we'll get to stand van Gundy's hot basketball nuggets in a second. But before we do that we were talking yesterday Stu gods? About the idea that you can't just parachute in to an NBA finals after not playing for a while and be yourself and up to speed and even be able to keep up stamina wise and so- cousins comes out yesterday, and he gives them eight minutes, and he does nothing while he's out there because the games moving very fast, and it's hard to simulate and rehab how fast the game is moving. But STAN, what I wanted to ask you is there now RIC. Sports coming out that the warriors are positive that Kevin Durant will appear here before the end of this series and given the injury, how long it normally takes and given that it is hard to just descend out of the sky and play in the finals. What is reasonable to expect from Kevin Durant when he does return? Well, I mean for most people, you wouldn't expect a whole lot, but it's Kevin Durant. I mean this guy's been incredible. Every time he stepped on a cord is entire career. So my expectations would be that he'd play really well. And he'll probably come back and drop twenty five points in and make an incredible contribution to them. The question to me that, that's more valid is win is going to come back. In other words, you know, if they get too far down in this series, it may not make difference, even if he can help them. I think he needs to come back if he can. I imagine. Kevin Durant is begging people, I wanna come back ready to go right now. This is the perfect opportunity for Kevin Durant to come back because Dan, I'm telling you don't wanna come back after the team's winning. You wanna come back after laws of people are starting to question, Golden State Warriors, and I'll tell you, if Durant comes back and they win and real off four straight win. The title eight six game. Seventy doesn't even matter. He'll finally get the validation that he so badly covets and hasn't received joined the Golden State Warriors, I come back tomorrow. Well, if he can, I mean, the good party doesn't care about that part the if he end part doesn't whether or not if I want the validation, I'm even if I went to the court and give them a way was read minutes off. Yeah. Riedel help them enough. A great. I just love that he has to come back and you don't care about the if he can't. Time now for standby detail. I'm now for standing Gundy's basketball nuggets in your face. And now time stamp in goodies top NBA nuggets, only Friday shoe. The thing he. Stan is there a theme this week there is how important is game one in the NBA fine? Oh. God says a pen down for some reason name one writing this down seventy one percent of the time. Yes, I don't I hope you don't ruin it. Number three, the third best nugget. According to stand Van Gundy is in the last forty years. The home team is one game one thirty one times and gone on to win the championship. Twenty four of those thirty one years. However, in the last eight years, the winner of game one has won the series four times and lost the series four times. Seventy one percent. Mike. But stand updated it to give you last eight four and four. That was a big, however, yes, big, however fifty fifty there in the last eight stand, the second best nugget is the last four times the team without homecourt advantage in the finals has won the championship they have done. So after losing game one in fact two of the last four teams to win the championship despite not having homecourt advantage. Have lost the first two games on the road, the Cavs in twenty sixteen in the heat in two thousand six. Stan is making the argument against his Toronto Raptors pick. And the number one nugget from STAN Van Gundy is we're homecourt advantage. Really matters in game seven nineteen NBA final series of gun seven games in the home team has won fifteen of them, including six of the last seven that's why in the last forty years, ten of the eleven championships who didn't champions who did not have homecourt advantage finished off the series in six games or fewer. I also have a nugget, that might work against the Toronto Raptors Hussein Gundy and myself have publicly picked to win this series. Did you publicly pick it argument that they had their good gambling value? I took them, especially if the rant doesn't come back forget about it just like saving Gundy, I agree. And we'll REVEAL OUR picks at the end of the series. We all put them in envelopes, but at of all the plus two hundred series price dogs in the NBA finals, only one of the nineteen has ever won the series. I assume maybe the Mavs or the Cavs that came back three one. No, the pistons are the only one of nineteen at series price of two hundred or better, plus, two hundred or better or hierarchy to actually win the series would this be viewed because Toronto and Golden State of essentially had the same season. This is as vulnerable as Golden State has looked throughout the season. And this Toronto team is the. And the hint history of that country. And it's, it's an excellent basketball team, a formidable challenge. But when you've got on the entire NBA, countdown set, everybody picked the raptors to win the series, everybody how big of an upset would this really be if Toronto is able to do this because they're a big underdog in Vegas. And I saw some quotes anonymous quotes from a warriors players, saying, why are we such big underdog against a big favourite against Toronto, and it's their history. How big upset would it be if Toronto does what you think they're going to do? I don't think it's an upset at all. I mean, you've got the warriors missing their leading score at least for one game. He missed a game Toronto has home court. Like you said. They basically had the same regular season record. I don't know why it would be considered upset at all. I do know why. It's because of what. The warriors of done the last four years. But we're playing this year and there's nothing to indicate this year that this would be an upset. That's, that's pretty staggering to say, though, is it not, I think it is. I think most people before the series would've told you before your arm with a raptors up wanted nothing. I think people would have said, yeah, it would be a massive upset if the Rondo was able to pull this off odd to me, it really heading. We're talking about team that's won three championships and four years you have to bet three hundred dollars to win a hundred dollars on the warriors winning the series that makes Toronto in terms of just betting odds. It makes them one of the biggest underdogs in the history of the finals, and if they were to win it. There aren't a lot of teams you're ever going to be able to point to that as might just told you Detroit's the only one when they were playing Shaq. And Kobe, the only one that was a plus two hundred underdog and the raptors. Yeah, they're a hell of an outline. I think there were plus four hundred starting. That series but only one of the nineteen. Plus, you better what so okay, this is all based on reputation and the thought that Golden State will just figure it out, because they always have combined was STAN the thing that I think sways people, whether you're overreacting to the Portland series or not. Is that stat that they're thirty two and one when Durant doesn't play? And when curry does, that's only the second time in whatever it is thirty four games. That that's happened what we saw last night. No look, it has been staggering what they've been able to do without Durant. The Portland series to me was a little bit of an outline. Number one. I don't think that Portland while they're decent defensively they're nowhere near Toronto defensively. And I think that makes a huge difference in this in this series. So. I just think Toronto's a lot better team or at least matches up, a lot better than than Portland does with Golden State. Look, there's no I make money moves Michelle Beedle couldn't believe that the entire NBA countdown desk, the raptors and Jalen rose couldn't believe that his pick, stung when he heard Paul Pierce, pick, the raptor, because Paul Pierce has become a national laughing stock, when it comes to the prediction all over NBA arenas anyway, there, there has been very Paul Pierce, a hall of fame player at fine. He has become a prediction court. Jester Jalen rose was mortified when Paul Pierce pick. The same thing he did. So it's like you wanna rip up the tickets? It's like. It's like I can't remember the name of a Bronx tale motion abroad stale, where if he the same ores as you did you rip up your ticket, because you have no shot at winning. And that's Ronald fans were chanting pulp here sucks. This is becoming on just because he put him so Dwayne. Wade good job by the truth, though. Right. So weird Cashmore of the donlevatar show with stugatz, ten to one eastern on ESPN radio and ESPN news. Every week during the baseball season ESPN's premier baseball insider joins Dan and stugotz drug. Some are bowl knowledge and take your Kohl's two plus two. I'm gonna undress you three and three you're going to undress me for and four. We're gonna freak some more live apart, Stu gods. And team coaching on ESPN radio. ESPN radio is presented by progressive insurance. Tim Kirch ING join just a second here on the shell Pennzoil performance on takes your phone call. Seven eight six four five six four eight three seven. Here's your sports update golf swing. Coach. Hank Haney has been suspended from the Sirius XM PGA tour radio channel after saying that Korean player would probably win the US woman's open, and that he couldn't name six players on the L P G A tour. But if he said, the name Lee, quote, I'd get a bunch of them, right? A rare Asian racism story, making its way into sport. We didn't care about it so much with incognito. Jim Alana's hired former Chelsea manager Antonio contact is a good one and finally Kano Reeves revealed in a recent Q, and A that he is a lonely. He's actually had a life marred by tragedy. Well, Andy says he doesn't have anybody but hopes that someday, he'll find that special someone. Oh. For all the latest headlines information. Tune in the sports center on ESPN radio all throughout the day. So your telephone culture, welcome here, seven eight six four five six four eight three seven. If you want to ask him Kirch in anything about baseball human decency, etiquette, personal questions. He will answer it all in of gun baseball. Questions are allowed here, Mike. What do you have for coaching Tim? I recently went to a baseball game and I was made very happy to see that Pablo Sandoval was playing third base again for the San Francisco Giants, he was hitting two ninety three which when I was growing up in a fan of the game that was in spectacular but you were a good hitter. But his average stuck out like a sore thumb because it was so much better than all the surrounding averages. Everybody's hitting to twenty in the two teens and it's just my problem. With baseball is it's a sport. That's based on failure. And now we're increasing the amount of times people are failing at their job. Why is this happening? Mike. We made a dramatic change here in the last few years to hit the ball out of the ballpark. It has many home runs as you can and sacrifice, but in home play batting average. Average is no longer important in today's game. Averages production, you bring, but it doesn't matter anymore. But basically what you hit for an average when I was coming up. It was really cool. Iran crew another bad title. But that is not what we look for today. And I actually see some of the value in that pitching is so in believably. Good right now, and so overpowering, spoke told me a couple years ago, it is easier to hit a home run off max Scherzer, then it is to get three straight hits off of Mexico. So you might as well wait and wait until you he makes a sake and then you can put a good swing to it barrel, it and maybe hit a home run. That's where we are right now. Now and I'm not real happy about it. Wow. Whoa. Whoa. That is shocking take from Tim Kirch at the end. There does Bruce Bochy looked like a north Georgia canoe rental operator who when asked there's a size limit on trout, snarls back. What are you the damn game? Warden son. Mike, you're Tim Kirch in. Go ahead, Mike. Hey Tim, if Bill friend, dyes her hair, purple, and you don't like it. What's the best way to tell her that? Are you obligated to do, so thanks? Well, I've never had a girlfriend red air. I mean purple hair and I've only had one girlfriend so that really I've not the guy to go. I would ask her why she did that. And if she likes it, I would tell her keep it because I think it's her hair, not your Christina. You're on with Tim coaching. Go ahead. Hey, Tom, what is your go-to Ben and Jerry's ice cream? Thanks. I love Ben and Jerry's but I don't eat very much anymore. I am a coconut ice cream guy. If I have a choice, anywhere, I'm gonna order coconut ice cream SOGA. It gave them put it on the poll is anyone's favourite ice cream other than Tim Kirch in coconut, Tim. We were building out today, the backup catcher hall of fame. What do you think about Paul Bach? Oh being in it, and who are your three nominees? Enter the backup catcher hall, you're not you're going to need to explain this. I think to Tim. No, I hear all throughout a few names, George fabric ass. Mike def- Elise Paul Bachan the game. Right. Backup catcher Jorge abrogates the cycle. It's amazing Willie based didn't. But George fab. Yeah. With. Corky. Miller's gotta be on there really score, but he never played more than forty games in a season. Caught all those years, I think it's real name was Abraham up. Miller. I think I've got that, right. You do is mom wants told him that if you're ever be president United States, you're going to be named Abraham Phillip Miller, not Corky. And he told me well, I haven't been asked at any point to be president of the United States. So I would put him in there. That's one longtime ago. I'm way to scare for you guys that have thinking time. I head there was a catcher Doug goose. She's like my all time. Favorite nickname shelter? He's felt his last name. G W, O S, being Z, and his nickname was, was the I chart, so as Doug greater once told me if you put your hand over your right eye and read his name, it reads legged, I charge g Dahbi you. Oh. So I think he has to be on the list and won forty four that number two spot, Tim curtains, clearly been waiting for this questions entire life and the third backup catcher and Tim Kirkstall of fame is well David Ross. He's a team teammate of mine. He hit his first major league Homer off of it. Came off of Mark praise who was pitching for the dive of access to time first baseman pitching. I Homer is up Mark grace his last career home or came in game seven of the two thousand sixteen World Series. He's the only player ever to hit a home run game seven of the World Series and then retire after the season. So those are two distinctions that would put him in my catcher backup catcher all things. Answering. Stories with everything I wanted to argue on behalf of any top, and see. But I just I defer to him maybe, Tony Sabi. Oh, I don't know. One of the guys that platoon south Tony. You're on with Tim Kirch and go ahead. Tony. Hey, that's your favorite Sal, that's not actually salad. You know, like, pasta salad potato salad tuna salad. I'll hang up and listen. I love potato salad more than any of those salads that you mentioned. I've been eating way too much salad lately, cluding kale salad, which I heard earlier today, very briefly at staying as totally against that most of my meals lately, point, the bottom of after cage and getting a little bit tired of it. So I think I'm gonna go have Hato salad 'cause it's so good cranky today. Trolling, by the way, you're tired of base on. Why are you eating the bottom of a hamster cage? So just asked me, X question. I'm not cranky. I lost my dog today. They both escaped polka backyard, they got out of the fence somehow been driving around for two hours looking for that low. I can't find him. And I'm really worry. What's the dog's name? What, what kind of question, just I'm wondering what the dog's name is? I mean why two of them? One is Tito, right. One is Maggie. And they're both rescue dogs and I love him more than any dogs overhead. I've had a dog my whole life. But now I can't find don't do anything off the air with us and go handle. I've been driving around for two hours. What are you doing? We're going to let you go on a second, and we're gonna put you in a better mood. Just real quick. By just reading you some more looks like nice of him, the name, one of his dog and after Terry Francona so rob Pelinka. Does he look like the guy at the resort cool who tells you to bring another round of drinks, even though you're not the waiter? Or does rob Pelinka look like the real estate agent who says the recent murder suicide you read about really only adds to the houses historical value. This matt. Patricia looked like the guy at the restaurant who orders the turf and turf. Jake area to look like the guy who believes that if a dog ways under fifty pounds. It's a cat and cats are useless. Too soon gone does Frank Reich look like the guy riding tandem bicycle with his significant other in an rectal dysfunction, commercial. Tim, go get out of. I apologize dawn. Go with my coli half an hour ago. Tim, please call us before one o'clock that you found the dogs if everything's okay? Please the America needs to know. I can't believe he just did that segment on is very responsible to responsible respond. We let them go a little early. I had a Ryan Friel Ryan -tario debate that. Done Libertad hard. Well, Charlie sent Charlie had this Charlie as far as I know. So just Charlie's title a mind, you're gonna stay this to guts. How, how familiar were you at the time with tobacco like your upbringing? How how had how much Bach in these live at our show with his two guys on ESPN radio. Did you guys ever find out in anyone ever? Find out why it is called a spelling bee doo. We have an answer can they can someone get us an answer for why it's called the spelling bee anyone can text us anyone can tweet us eight champions tied that, that is very unsatisfying. Everybody would say if at the end of the season at the end of a contest you've crowned eight champions, you have a ending as disappointing game if you can't have eight champions, that doesn't make everyone feel like they wasted their time when you have eight champions watching the spelling bee, although it's very nice for the people who are champion if the NFL had that policy the jets still wouldn't have a Super Bowl. So true, what did I hear you yelling about the jets on golick and wingo? The none of this matters of it's June everything. That's happening. The owner the GM the backstabbing none of it matters if they start three ago or Owen three. No one cares. We'll just be great Gojra fire the coach you met Levy on bell yet. No. Because he's somehow avoided the headlines at Odell Beckham junior's getting for not Oto Beckham. Junior's only gone no-one OTA practice. And I think this is the last day of it. He was in Monica with Lewis Hamilton at the F one race. Ivy mike. We've never had a love EON bell on RT just show up. We want and I'm fine like to the game. I don't care about practice. Are you worried that lady on bell is still in Miami? No, I'm not should be it's June. You should be. I'm okay. It's been in Miami a lot and being in Miami. A lot is not the way to get ready for an NFL season saying he doesn't look in tiptop shape to me. He ever put it on the poll worst place to be if your getting ready for an NFL season, Miami, or Monaco, LeBron trips to Miami needed just fine. That is correct. But he was here for brief periods. They were annual trips lady on bell spent his entire hold out down here in the clubs. DJ -ing. I thought that Miami and Monica. I mean, think of something Mike said, funnier in fiction than Odell Beckham is missing OTA's because he's watching racing and Monico. I'm super cool with it. But I did see on, on the Instagram Baker Mayfield, dropping dimes to Hollywood Higgins and practice. Odell Beckham junior high fiving Lewis Hamilton, and I'm just trying to piece it together. It's gonna take them at least data get Iraq, and he's not gonna be back tomorrow, but he's also not coming back rested. Mike like there is the very real chance that Odell Beckham shows up for the second quarter of game one returning from Monaco. How did it become tiptop shape? What's the origin of that? I know we're on a lot of origins, folks in we are going to have to crowd source. Crowdsource be. We have no idea what this origin is no one knows. No one in searching all morning. I can't find one in our audience knows why it's a spelling bee and we can't find it on the internet on spelling. Bee dot com. There's one possibility that comes from the middle English word, B, E, N E, which means a prayer or a favor. There's another one that says an English, in England dialect from this word is being b e e n to ease and I don't like the website doesn't even know those are the options. Hold it out. I had it into the weekend they want you have that bad feeling until Monday. But you did you pulled it out, man. Let's play here, the most embarrassing moments, we've all had here with being able to speak. We've got Stu gods. Trying to read, we've got Billy trying to take out Charlie. And we've got me asking the new Baca a question very poorly. I wanna put all three of them against each other. Because I really do believe that the way that you read that Chris is the single worst thing we've had read around here, God's tried to read the origins of field day. I don't believe we've had anything like you're reading it off your phone and you jumping around reading one consistent, take it was bad. All right. So we will play all of those in a second, but at lebatardshow on Twitter is how you vote on the polled before we send you into the weekend by opening up the club at lebatardshow is how you vote on the polls, Twitter and Instagram. Let's update. Some of those the Twitter poll. Brought to you by Dollar Shave Club. Dollar Shave Club delivers the products. You used a look feel and smell your best right to your door. Plus, with their hands diskette. The more you buy, the more you save dollarshaveclub dot com slash Dan, for a special offer was rob Pelinka, actually a member of the Michigan basketball team with the fab five or does he just say he was. Terrible thing in sports, the guy everyone's making jokes about he lies. Yeah it's terrible. Eighty two percent of the audience says that rob just says he was funny, if you have champions, do you have none? Seventy eight percent of the audience said, yes. Do you know why it's a spelling bee ninety four percent of the audience said, no someone in that six percent? Tell us, please. Yeah. One of you liars bowls that are out of the six percent, there, can you help us out? Are you stunned that STAN Van Gundy rods with Drake? Seventy six percent of the audience said yes, is Jorges fabric gas. The worst namedrop in a history of drought names. We could not shut STAN Van Gundy up on or hey fabric story. Eighty nine percent of the audience said, yes. For the cycle Willie Mays in it. Does anyone in the world call? Sandra Bullock, sandy. Billy did that seventy percent of the audience said, no? Is rotten tomatoes all politics, seventy six percent of the audience said, yes. Billy's greatest contribution to the show then since saying that America should own the moon fifty stars and the moon should be on the flag. And we should charge other countries for looking at the moon at his solve our national debt was rotten tomatoes is all politics. Billy, did you find something on spelling bee? All right. The word be is used in spelling. Bee is one of those language puzzles that has never been satisfactorily accounted for a fairly a fairly old and widely use word a refers to a community social gathering at which friends and neighbors. Join together in a single activity sewing quilting barn raising cetera usually to help one person or family. I don't know. Spelling words helps a family, though. So this seems like it's sketchy. Good read them. So it was a better read at lebatardshow, Instagram and Twitter is anyone's favorite ice cream flavor. Coconut. Besides Tim coaching flavor man ninety two percent of the audience said, no. What's Lamer Drake, having stuff in K, D tattoos or Drake, covering them up with the wrist bent fifty five percent of the audience that having the tattoos, those are the polls? All right. So in the history of this show, we've had a number of us who go spiralling into the weekend because we have done something poorly that we can't shake or scrub off of us. Here is Stu gods. Trying to read the origins of field day, the expression field day, Stu gods. I went to him. He was ready to go just a casual information drop of Stu gods. Can you just tell us where the phrase field day came from the origins of this term come from the military? Dan, the literal sense of the term that is. A day spent in field. Maneuvers is now little used the first reference, we have for that. Meaning is from seventeen forty seven in scheme of quick men of war these period. Periodic let me just stop you only God hurts, I time. And. Just do that again. Just you tell me if there's any retention going on between words on a page or a computer, getting Stu gods his mind and coming out of his mouth, is there anything at the end of this. That's just you stoop understands what he's reading yard Jin's term company military, Dan, literal sense of the term that is a day spent in field. Maneuvers is now little used. I reference, we have for that. Meaning it's from seventeen forty seven in scheme of quick, men of war. Hurry up periodically. All right. So I do not to get out of here runs. Time. What did he mean? Well, someone tell me what in scheme. Optical. He was obviously reading I mean, it goes without saying, but he threw in a Dan, and like just to sound more off the scent that he was reading. And that's one thing started to unravel on more time. He are of this term come from the military. Then the literal sense of the term that is a day spent in field. Maneuvers is little used. He I reference, we have for that. Meaning is from seventeen forty seven in scheme of quick, men of war. No, I'm not going to get out of here unscathed. I did try to make that very conversational. Casual, dan. I got all this. It's great maneuvers in terms of trying to cover up sent on I'm reading just throws in a dance. Sometimes he does it on goal. It can win and go when I'm not even there. So I was talking, of course, the new Chewbacca and it was a total disaster. I couldn't have spoken less. Well, Nevada and. This is how it came out. How, how familiar were you at the time with Chewbacca like how your upbringing how how had how much? All right. Mike played again. I want you guys just to imagine in two different points here me being tasers. How, how familiar were you time with Chewbacca like how your upbringing how how had how much Baca in it? Just recovered from the first. And you'll notice that Billy's been sitting this one out. Billy hasn't had much of anything to say because after years of waiting to take out, executive Charlie Hume, who is basically the guy who is eager to rise up the ranks in corporate America in a way that makes people who aren't grabbing climbers uncomfortable. He got eight seconds of space takeout Charlie to explain to the audience, who Charlie is. And why he is someone that should not be liked. And this is how it came out of the hole in his face. Well, Charlie sent Charlie had this Charlie as far as I know. So just Charlie's title. A stay. Really sent Charlie had this Charlie as far as I know. So just Charlie's title. Feel so much better, my favorite part of that is that he went home and told his fiancee, he didn't let me finish. I was about to get to. It's true. That's really sent Charlie had this Charlie as far as I know. So just Charlie's title. In scheme of quick of war, period. Periodic let me just stop you. That's once a new bolo for some more ads. The keys going less is being, I there right scheme. Men of war. Hurry periodic just stop you. Man. In scheme. Men of war. Really wanna get. Quick men of more.
F-35 Noise, COVID Update, and Supreme Court Abortion Decision
"From Radio Vermont, it's the Dave Graham Show on wd? It's your show about the people places and the issues that matter the most to you. Now here's your host Dave Graham. Good Morning Vermont is the Tuesday June the thirtieth two thousand. And Twenty and we have a good show for you this morning. We're GONNA be speaking first off with. An old wd James Ehlers is going to be visiting with us and I think talking mainly about the F thirty five flights, the fighter jet flights in and out of the Vermont. National Guard base in Burlington. A lot of concern there that you know there's a lot of speculation leading up until their arrival last fall and since then there's just been Pretty loud drumbeat of concern from the community about just how how loud these planes really are, and not not sure what folks think ought to be done about it, but. There is. A lot of conservative will be hearing some of that from Mr. Elliott's I do believe in the second half hour. We're going to be visiting with Tracy Dolan. She is Deputy Commissioner of the Vermont Department of. Health wanted to get an update on our Kobe nineteen situation in the state governor Scott is continuing on his path of I. Guess You'd call it. Careful of the economy and we are of course Everyone's looking with alarm at at some of the. Figures and the seen on the national picture here, which is really quite concerning here it is coming into high summer around the United States and the Kobe. Nineteen virus is not going away. In fact on the contrary, we'll find out about some of that from from Tracy Dolan in the second half hour of the program this morning later on. We're going to be visiting with Dan Richardson he's our legal analyst of very active attorney in Montpellier former president of Bar Association and it all around good guy and Dan is. Going to be talking with us about a very important Supreme Court decision yesterday, relating to abortion rights access to abortion, etcetera and He Actually I think we'll has an interesting things to say about sort of the overall path of the Supreme Court, going forward I think there was a fairly widespread assumption among the general public that the court was really going to take a sharp turn to the right after appointments of Neil, Gorsuch and Brett Cavanaugh and there are some reasons that the court is. It's SORTA turning battleship? It doesn't turn dime and that we'll be talking with Dan about that. In the second half hour. Inbetween will be getting visit for from one of our reporters at axios. axios is one of the. National teams we go to sometimes for some perspective on what's going on out there in the broader country in world and I believe we are going to be talking this morning with a Ursula per now of of axios so. She may be I think she's a first time visitor to the day Graham, so show so I'm looking forward to that and Anyway. Let's get right it with James Ehlers who's on the line with us this morning? Good Morning James. Dave! What an a check in with you about the F, thirty five and and You know. I'm I'm? I think we may have to have a broader conversation about this point bringing in folks from the National Guard and And others there. Obviously, there's obviously some support in the community. Four base in these planes. In Burlington, they do generate some economic activity in heaven knows turn pandemic time. We need some economic activity so but. I think people are also really kind of surprised at. I mean there was a lot of speculation and prediction and studies indicating these planes are going to be louder than the old F16's but I think now that there. There is some growing reaction of holy cowards loud. What can you tell me? Well first off Dave. I'M GONNA. Let the economic activity assertion slide for the moment. Economically Benefiting Whom you know big question. But this morning you want to focus on the noise issue. And I would strongly encourage you to Get, the guard and some other folks. I'm going to recommend. WHO's working? I'm GonNa say this morning like Scott Decker and Jimmy lease a professor ranking. Physics Professor! From UVM. To come on the show and facilitate that dialogue and in fact I wish. WD And yourself would would host a public debate because right now. Our voice is. Or being marginalized and I think that's a nice way to put it. Even the National Guard. General General, night When he's. hosting town halls as he is tonight. you have to submit your questions in advance so you can decide whether or not he wants to answer them. So. We don't really have much recourse other than opportunities like this. Day because the politicians, and that is the other major aspect of this Mayor Weinberger. Governor Scott in particular. You know we we don't have enough time to get into all the issues with. Senator Leahy he's. The glass. And Senator Sanders for that matter. but we were. We were told we knew this wasn't true at the time. was that the noise wasn't going to be an issue thirty five. We're going to be louder. But not that much louder. And? You know I'm not you know I'm not your normal. What's The pejorative? They use for for people who oppose. Military and that sort of thing would they call snowflakes man? I'm not your average. Average snowflake I'm a veteran used to work in logging and loud noise. Yeah No, I'm here I just you know you used to loud noises and you're not a typical snowflake is which telling me and. And, I I. I. I I. I've I've received all sorts of negative comments and slurs directed me since taking a position against the basing of these aircraft here but the long short of it is. The the noise here is blistering. In! The the second aspect of that is. The airport, commissioners. Willful. Willful collusion with the National Guard. To avoid. Having to measure the noise because they know if they had the sound measurements and we have them from an electrical engineer. of course there'll be disputed. Their Willful Leumi. Ask you about those sound measurements because I saw you email that actually a sound sample. which taking it in of itself? I mean I guess it somewhat depends on how loud you ever. Your computer turned up or something but I didn't. It didn't blow me away. The way might have been hoped. It would, but and I know you said this out to other media people yesterday's well, and what kind of got me interested in this whole topic this morning? And but you also included this a chart with With the materials you sent out and the chart indicated that. there. Are there noise spikes from Were measured here of two hundred and twenty five decibels I believe. Is that what I saw? One hundred and twenty four okay, electrical engineer, who's been doing the sound measurements. For us, even how to spike is as loud as one hundred, twenty nine, and those are considered extremely dangerous by the air force itself. I mean in that, and that's that's. Again, probably! The most upsetting aspect of this. Is, our local politicians and our national guard, which is supposed to be serving US our local guard. Unit Is. Ignoring. The Air Force's own environmental impact statements. So you know, this really is being just jammed down our throats because. Senator Leahy you know wanted this to happen and Merrin. Weinberger's a loyal soldier of the senators and I believe he's even past. staff member clerk something to that effect. You get. You know so. And the airport director is exchanging emails with. The guard wing commander, celebrating their collaborative partnership while. the airport director Mr. Richards is sending in a flawed. Grant applications for noise monitoring equipment knowingly. Knowingly. and Jimmy Jimmy lease a in an activist, and in Burlington who's been? WHO's been a real leader on this issue and we're really grateful to have his his work He's documented all this with public records request. From, the city of Burlington so. You know. The noise is an issue, but what's which even more concerning to me personally? Is just the lack of integrity of of our of our neighbors. You know our garden scholes. And our our Burlington mayor and The airport director. Well I'll tell you I'll tell you, James the the thing I I concerned about on a more kind of ground level. Issue here is is just I'm picking up conversations in the community. Just from from people Some of whom are are not rabid. Liberal Peace Nick snowflake activists whatever you now I mean. People, they're just people trying to get through their day. You know, and so you know I know people who go to classes at the at the CV the community, College of Vermont Campus Right there in downtown with ski. And you know valuable class time is lost when these planes are flying overhead and nobody can hear the instructor speaking. There's that and mentioned economic activity at the outset. In Paris learning, we know that we know that these noise disruptions impair learning. There's there's solid science on that. We've got elementary schools. We have high schools. It's not just see that are square squarely in the flight path. Of of these weapons. So the the other, the other aspect of this is we're we're? especially the COVID nineteen crisis were living in this age of of. Telemedicine and zoom meetings for all kinds of businesses at Cetera, so uniting zoom meeting in one of the members of your of your. Zoo meeting I guess they have to mute or something. Because all of a sudden they had these planes flying overhead, and they can't speak. They can't be heard. They can't hear. Nothing is happening. As far as getting, any business served economic activity done for those minutes when when these flights are happening. And you know I I guess. I don't know whether anybody's really. Added up the amount of lost time in the in the Metro Burlington area that happens. As a result here, but telemedicine is another one I mean. Again these are just stories I pick up randomly from from people. I talk to in the community, but. We have this whole. We have this old big push on right now. For folks who are checking in with their physicians or whatever to do it by. By telephone, or by or by video chat of some kind and. And that comes to a halt and you know now we're talking about. Out of. Dr Time. That's worth a couple of hundred bucks an hour and When when when that gets lost to to a racket, that just completely stops the meeting. Interesting perspective that I hadn't even considered because. Here in Winooski I live in new ski in an apartment. I just basically. Don't. Commit myself to. Online meetings or anything else because you just never know. When you're GONNA have this disruption because it's not just the the stoppage it's it's the disruption. In your thinking? And your thought process, and if you're engaged in some high level, critical thinking. it's it's not conducive to making decisions, sound decisions and I know I'm not the only one from a retail perspective for a community. Like we knew ski that has. Worked very very very hard to revitalize itself. I know people who are not interested any longer in coming to a new ski to enjoy the outdoor restaurants. because. again a hundred and twenty four decibels. Let's just let's say let's. Say It's one hundred decibels. For many people that's that's painful to experience. And I know we'll get mocked, but there's also this aspect of the F thirty five's. That's different, and that's the low frequency noise that literally. Causes Vibrations. The sound waves move air. And they include our chest cavities internal organs. And you know my fellow brothers and sisters in in the service. They know this. You know and the military has very strict guidelines on on the amount of exposure that we can have to these vibrations, I mean I. My last appointment in the Navy I was. You know there was a few inches of steel between me and a flight deck. So. I understand what people are dealing with and these. These planes do not belong. At a civilian airport. In residential neighborhoods. People can argue about whether or not we want these for. Other reasons. But These planes all their other safety issues aside I mean they've just been. Banned from flying within I believe it's twenty five nautical miles the thunder because they made explode. If struck by lightning. This just released in the last couple days. Their issues with Lockheed supply chain and their replacement parts being the unreliability issues there. There's a reason why warplanes are typically based. In. Lightly populated areas with large security perimeters around them. We don't even have an. In Epz, an accident potential zone here. That Is Protective of the. Kids at the school. So. There's so many issues. With this plane and the only way that this plane could have. Landed here, bad pun intended. when you have the most senior Democrat in the United States Senate, Ranking member Vice Chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee. WHO also happens to be? Co Chair of the Senate National Guard Caucus. In, that is only reason this plane is here is not here for strategic. national defense reasons. Air Force wasn't even interested. In locating it here. It's here because Senator Leahy. He wanted it here. For his. Own political purposes and he has enlisted. His loyal party soldiers. To have these aircraft. quartered. Quite literally, it's quite it's It's interesting in. That makes me think. to remind you that there is a rally on Saturday on July fourth. organized by the people for. Peace and security. Veterans for Peace Women's International League of. Peace and freedom. On July fourth and they intend to List demands that they're going to post. On Mayor Weinberger's were Senator Sanders store Senator Lady's door and Congressman welches door winning wears a rally. four to six beginning at. Burlington City Hall, and I do believe we have a listener on the line this morning, and that's called in from Danby Good morning in that. Are, you there. Levels being measured or one hundred twenty. WHOA had to learn a about dealing with wind turbines I can go to a website in. An and Their noise, monitoring? As modern equipment, as many many airports, all around the world and I can go and look and real time and see what the levels are. That's a really. Sort of standard thing to have at airports and pilots are actually charged a penalty if they exceed those those noise limits so I'm. Typical noise limits in it. forty, fifty, sixty, seventy in are nothing like one hundred twenty. I pulled up a chartered. Jet Takeoff which is similar to a power lawnmower did? When you get up to one ten average human pain threshold. When you get up to one twenty, that's like running chainsaw without any noise equipment and that's considered painful. You get up to one fifty. That's eardrum rupture. I mean these noise. Levels are exceedingly high and. That there isn't a monitoring system that that the National Guard is put in, or the airport has put in. That's actually standard. Most places is is really you know this is not going well and I did hear the F thirty five when they made their run around the state I was blown away by how loud they were and I remember. The F. Fifteens used to come around here, but I cannot imagine what it's like living with it on a daily basis and I'm really glad that James is bringing some attention to this. Alright for the call, I appreciate it, let's go to Jimmy in south Burlington Good Morning Jimmy. Dave. Dave Jimmy before before. We get onto Jimmy. Because we could, Jimmy should have a show of his own on this topic I. Just wanted to point out and thank net for. Bringing up the issue of wind turbines because that low frequency noise emitted by turbines is very similar to what we're experiencing with thirty five, and it's not being measured. It's not being acknowledged by the the guard by the airport. These average a weighted ratings for sound measurement over twenty four hour period. We don't hear sound. Averaged over twenty four hours. We hear it in the moment. And what is painful? Our ears ring sometimes. We have headaches for days. If we're caught outside without the ability to protect ourselves. our folks up. They're buying your protection as part of their daily routine. They walk around outside. They aware. You coverings at some construction workers, where or especially in a low income Community like Winooski where we don't have climate controlled apartments, which you know, the the people at the. Leadership keeping all we're. We're just going to insulate everyone's homes that they haven't demolished. you can't. There's there's no way for us to insulate homes when we don't have. Air Conditioning. When right okay let me let me have to be bringing, Jimmy because we just we just have a couple of minutes to go james so Jimmy lease. I think it is that right? That's right so I just wanted to Jimmy. Good Morning! I just wanted to talk about who has the power over these training flights? It is the federal government under the constitution that arms the militia, but the constitution also reserves to the states the authority over training the militia, so our state. has the power to start or stop or regulate. the training and these are training flights, all of these forms of the thirty five or for training our national guard, so this is under the authority of the state, particularly the governor, so we could actually. As a state put a stop to the training flights of the F. Thirty five that are causing pain and hearing damage particularly in low income and minority areas. Where the air force itself says there's disproportionate impact on Black Brown and working class people. Tell you this story I've heard about on this front is. Young Woman Who is a a? New American, she you originally from Iraq. She's a student up in the Burlington area and from what I'm told she Here's these planes and they. Reminder of the planes dropped a bomb on her home when she was a small child and kill some of her siblings in her mother. And she is frigging out basically every time. One of these goes over the. That's quite a sad tale. Wait. What upsets me is a veteran about hearing that story. Is Is. That that? Person has come here to be free. Of that sort of. Oppression and here ever own government just showing total disregard. For its own people. and Jimmy's points are excellent. We wouldn't be where we are still in in this issue, but were it not for Jimmy's efforts, and we're not gonNA. Go Away. And General Night really OUGHTA consider who it is that he's serving. When it isn't use just his serving. It's also military rule, the air force and the National Guard operate under the laws of war which prohibit. a necessarily harming civilians without military necessity. They're supposed to guys you what I hate to do this, but I kind of have to leave it there because we're about out of time for this segment, but I wanNA revisit this issue I, think it's an ongoing thing that needs more. Attention I do WANNA, get offer a chance for somebody from the guard somebody from maybe senator heeds cover Scott's office to come on and talk about this. It's an ongoing thing, gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me also appreciate the calls from from a net and and of course and. Be, back after the break I some bottom of the hour news, the grab show here W.. FM AND AM. Stay with folks. So, we're opening, upstairs. At the Warren store following CDC guidelines, we will allow three people at a time from ten to four Friday Saturday and Sunday and eleven to three Monday and Thursday until further notice, or you can email Lori l.. O. R. I. AT Warren Store. Dot Com to make an appointment. There's lots of great summer clothing at fifty percent off outside and new spring merchandise upstairs. Please were mask. We have disposables and we will be selling organic wired ones from product think-tank. We'd love to see you stay safe mainstream Warren village. It's the Dave Ramsey show. WD! We are back and. We'll be talking. I do believe this half hour with Tracy. Dolan the deputy commissioner of the Vermont Department of Health. Hoping to get a an update on what is going on in Vermont, with the COVID, nineteen virus and There's a lot of concern nationally. What's happening out there in the broader? United States of America relating to the Kobe because. This pandemic is. Is really roaring in especially in some of the sunbelt states right now, but. It also seems to be at the constant ready to. Pop up again in places. Where maybe we thought we had it under control pretty well in check. There are a lot of folks out there. Who are minimizing this thing. They're not wearing their masks they are. Not maintaining social distancing that that is recommended by public health experts, and that's how that's how you get the stuff to spread and some of the states that were I to reopen way back in April are. Basically, the ones that are now being hit hardest. By A. Resurgence of this of this pandemic and and and again you know nobody wants to catch this thing. This is a very dangerous and. At least if you are affected by the The. CORONA VIRUS Here's a A. Arizona just for instances one place Top mind these days, because one of my one of my sons just move there last week, he's taken a job as a teacher there and it's Kinda worry so what I see you headlines like Arizona orders bars in gyms to close joining other states and reversing reopening move comes on the heels of state reporting, nearly four thousand new code, nineteen cases Sunday its largest one day case load so far. I mean I think these numbers are are kind of a pretty daunting when you think about it for for me, Vermont Perspective That's that's a lot more Arizona had had reported way more new cases new new more new cases. On Sunday then. Vermont has had so far in the in the first of several months of this. Pandemic. I believe we are joined now by Tracy Dolan of the Vermont. Department of Health and. I really appreciate her occasional visits to our show here because she has a good perspective on what's going on statewide here in comparison with maybe what's happening in the national trade so on Tracy Dole, and thank you very much for joining me this morning. Good, morning Dave how are you today? I'm doing pretty well. How are you I'm well? Thank you. So give us an update on where Vermont stands. Are we seeing any I mean we see giant resurgences or or just new appearances? Of the COVID nineteen virus in. Especially, some of the Sun Belt States. Vermont seeing a little bit of an uptick also. We're seeing occasional outbreaks, but our actual infection rate continues to remain pretty low. We have currently one thousand two hundred eight cases. with only two hospitalization, so we're fortunate in the severity of illness. And we've had fifty six deaths but our total number of people tested as almost sixty five thousand, so we have a case rate that is well under two percent and we are among four states in the country that are actually testing at recommended levels. which is. Good News. Yeah! I mean you will see I. Mean Covert is still here it still just as severe and can be. We have been lucky that you know. We're really protecting some of our more vulnerable populations. We've been very cautious and conservative with elderly with people in long term care with people who have chronic disease, and we've also really worked with hospitals. Hospitals to make sure that we have capacity so that people are able to get the care. They need right away. so it's still dangerous disease. However you know I feel like Vermont are really taken seriously before things were asking them to do which is to wear masks, wash hands, socially distance and stay home and they're sick. have so I think that's helping us? And your sense that. A lot of folks are just. Maybe more homebodies than they used to be people staying home even when they're not sick, and is that a good idea? I am really noticing that even in my personal life I'm talking to people who say you know what I kind of like being at home. It turns out you know. I I heard that this might not be good for marriages, but I have heard. Some couples say you know I kind of like my husband. People encouraging. That's encouraging. You gotTA. You GotTa love that and I think just you know families sending a little more time together and getting into a rhythm. Certainly, it's interesting too little niche places you see it, so I've just gotten into mountain. BIKING and I've been looking to buy secondhand mountain bike, and there is just a a dearth of mountain bikes right now. You can't find them. and some of that. A lot of that is about Cova so even getting a good used. Secondhand bike they are all out because everyone is turning to hobbies that they either used to do or haven't done before, and you're seeing that with lot of the just kind of an outdoorsy things to do. That is interesting. I was actually had a couple folks on. A couple of weeks ago, talking about making sour dough bread, and they're big shortages on things like flour and yeast, because of so many people have suddenly developed a new sour, dough bread baking hobby. It's a thing that is a thing. I can't believe how many people are making sour dough bread. Did Not. Go The bread route because. while. I'm inside and not moving around. Much I'm not sure bread is going to be a good addition to my lifestyle I know. You're probably going to. Stay in better shape if you, if you skip the skip all the carbs and get on the mountain bike instead so. I think sounds like you're sounds like you're, but then you know you're deputy commissioner health so I guess you gotta be healthy right so. Job Yeah Yeah. and I wonder. I wonder though if you have any sort of chief concerns about the pandemic. It's current posture in Vermont, or are there sort of things that health department is watching to say you know, or maybe you're you're you have hopes as well as it concerns, but. Are there key signals you're looking for. It'll be indicators of the of the trajectory of this thing going forward. Sure the outbreaks continue to be a concern and when we see out break, sometimes what we're finding is that there are you know. Maybe groups of people are communities or workplaces where the mask-wearing hasn't been as consistent or something along those lines not always, but we're double checking to make sure that everyone is really getting the message in a way that they can understand that makes sense to them, so you will see in the coming days a real push to promote mask-wearing that would be one piece. That we have and just with reopening to sense of reopening, gives people a sense that everything's Ok now. It's It's a little better in Vermont, but it's, but but we're not okay, not covid free. This is still. A very serious illness, and so with reopening reopening only works if we have really a societal compact together. That says we will do this if we do all these other things, we're seeing more and more You know I I read a fascinating article. A few days ago Mongolia literally had one case in January, they instituted masks and did a shutdown before they even had one case, and And the result has been zero cases right now. Mango, yeah, they had one case of a traveller who came in quarantine them. He left and. There are other reasons for that, but but you know there are other rural countries that have had a lot of cases and so just hearing more and more now about some of the countries that picked up on these things that we're doing early so realizing that all these things that feel relatively new to the United States are really working in other countries and Kenmore here, but we just because it's summer, and it feels good, and we've got a low death rate and a low infection rate I mean we our foot off this pedal, and we will be going in the wrong direction again. So. We have had twelve hundred and something cases today's right. I'll have to fill up the data again with whatever I just said so let me be. That's okay I mean. It was. Okay! and. I just saw figure indicated Arizona had four thousand new cases on Sunday. That that is that's truly alarming I. Guess because there's so much. It's a much bigger state, but it also I think to. Some degree puts in perspective what Vermont is dealing with here. and. mean. We're we're? We're asking for one day. No matter how big you are is a tremendous number of cases. Yeah, that's kind of crazy and. Wonder? If. You were to advise a Texas Arizona or Florida. on steps that that maybe we've taken have been helpful here What would be the top thing? You would say if you were talking to governor? Do in Arizona I think I would say look at the C. Phases. They are not where we are. We are in a phase. That's farther along because we kept our infection rate down. They are not there. They have to scale way back on the reopening in those states they're. They're not ready for it and their population isn't ready for it because they have not made those changes and so the only reason. The governor's going in this direction here in Vermont, and he's doing. It very cautiously is because we have testing. We have low infection rates, and we have a population that's complying. If any of those things slip, you know we may have two different direction and these other states. They just started reopening because. I don't WANNA I don't WanNa slam the other states, but some of them started reopening out of pressure and sure there's a tremendous amount of economic pressure, but there's just no. There's really no negotiating when you've got a pandemic like this and your state is just not ready. Yeah, that's the one thing that we gotta remember. All the time is the corona virus does not care about the economy. It has no no concern. There whatsoever may really have no concern for anything. It doesn't obviously doesn't have the ability to think or do anything like that, but but. You know I I guess I guess we're. We're in a situation here where? It. Is there. An extensive which reminds small-size has made it you know I don't WanNa. Take Away. He credit, but I mean. We had an easier time just because of our small population. Yeah, and that's true for any outbreak. We have here in from out because of our population, not just the size of our population, but because of our population we're able to partner more quickly and able to get things done more quickly, so some of it is about numbers, and some of it is about what the numbers allow us to do differently. So when we have any breaking out outbreak in Vermont, we can literally get to the physical location within hours right. We can we can. We can get partnerships in place right away and there is this you know and I don't want to do this kind of exceptional Vermont Schtick, but there is something about a mutual respect in Vermont, even though there are people who don't necessarily agree philosophically with the sense of being restricted and having to wear masks, etc, you see a lot of people stepping up anyway because they understand. Understand that. It's the right thing to do, and it's expected and that's a very impressive thing and I would really encourage people to continue to go in that direction, not just with the mask wearing, but with the hand washing and every other piece of it and I and I think there is something about you know. That's your neighbor so it's hard to other people so much when you're so close. I mean it's the same spirit I think I i. think my first day in Vermont. You know thirty five years ago. A Guy I was working with. said to be. By the way I just want to tell you. You never flip the bird to anybody and traffic and Vermont because. If you look again, you'll probably know them. Yeah? You gotta you gotTa. Be careful when you're in mixed company. You start talking. You know because that's that's somebody. Who worked with Bernie Sanders. Who are yeah? It's it's a very good things about it and one of the great things is in a crisis. People figure out how to come together and it's impressive. Yeah! I mean it is just. It's kind of woven into the fabric here. I mean the whole Communitarian town meeting tradition, etc, but I guess I I don't know whether there's any way to bottle and export it to other states but. But talk to me a little bit about the about the philosophical aspect here because I mean, we have people out there who Considered a real infringement on their personal liberty to be asked to wear masks cow when Montpellier Passed its ordinance telling people, you must wear a mask into local businesses. I saw stuff online where people were calling. It Masks Peeler, and so on and so forth and. And I guess you know minority though I really WanNa highlight you know when people when people get upset they they speak out, but often the voice can be louder than the actual numbers i. I believe that's truly the minority I mean the vast majority of people I mean. There are people going in that you would just looking at them. If you wanted to stereotype, you'd think that that person doesn't look like the kind of person that was throwing them. Ask you know. And they do, and they are doing it, so I think there's a peer pressure and and enough people have died here in Vermont I mean fifty six in Vermont in a few months from this disease is no small thing that I think a lot of people are starting to know somebody who's either had it or very ill passed away, or they know someone who know someone, and or they know someone in another state and It's really hard to keep telling yourself. This doesn't matter. This doesn't work. I'm fine. When more and more and I think this is a good role for public health I feel like public health is really talked about the science behind contagion. Because we haven't had a big pandemic in a while, it's easy to forget the infectious nature and the idea that you can have an illness and pass it on, and it can affect someone else so differently. It's really hard to ignore that and know that because I have it and I go into a store, even if I feel fine, someone else gets it and then passes it onto grandma that they visit because we've loosened restrictions that an elder home and now three weeks later. Grandma's on respirator. You know that that is. If you if you make yourself, stop thinking. You can stop thinking about that, but hopefully if you allow yourself to go all the way down that path, thinking of what even if I'm not sure, this makes sense I should put on this mask. I wish I knew how to make commercials because if I did, I would make one where you have a police officer. Maybe donning a bulletproof vest in a firefighter putting on all the gear, they wear a big air tank, and so on a military officer, putting on the helmet, and all the other stuff they wear and say and have these three say you know we do this in the name of protecting other people. And then have somebody is putting the cloth over their mouth and nose and say if you really onerous, you could probably do this. It's it's not just a mask scoring. That's really important. Also we have to continue to have behavior change around social distancing and. People are out and about now, but they should not be back to business as usual if your usual used to be going to congregate settings. You still shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be in and out of the grocery store every day. You shouldn't be going to a lot of parties. You should really limit your gatherings. you know yes. Restaurants are allowing people in Think hard before you go in and look at the numbers right? Make sure your social distance all of those things if you're out shopping. Shopping think about doing that shopping once every two weeks. Like all of those things still matter, we have only so many children are to box against as virus, and so we have to be thoughtful on a personal level You know most of us I think are continuing to live somewhat restricted lives, and and that's GonNa continue probably at least through the fall. As we see a possible. Resurgence with the with the flu coming and and with more people moving about. Fourth of July's coming up this weekend, and of course that is traditionally time for big gatherings to watch fireworks and. Go to cookouts and parades, and all the other stuff of course, a lot of those public official events, those typically sponsored by our cities and towns have been canceled or postponed and What are you? What are the current rules and or recommendations for people who might just be? Thinking about you know inviting the neighborhood over for the for the traditional fourth of July cookout. We wouldn't. We wouldn't recommend a vitamin neighborhood. You may have a small social circles people that you've started to be in touch with that and you know how they behave in. You know what their? Social distancing and behaviors have been, and you've known them now and been around them for a while, and you may feel like so you know because of the way they behave of lower risk, and you may have a small number of people and spread out and spread out those chairs, and you're not doing big hugging or anything like that really just continuing to distance and having smaller gatherings if you're GONNA, have a gathering or keep it with your family, or you know use that data go out. Hiking or biking or gardening, but it's it's not. And you know what? That part of it I would say the worst part of all of this is a brutal sacrifice, but that part of it is a smaller sacrifice, and we really have to weigh our traditions against what we're up against. It feels kind of counter intuitive. I gotta say in my own experience here just the last few weeks there have been. family members or other people I normally hug on meeting them for the seeing them for the first time in in months or whatever and. And, that's not happening. It feels kinda weird. You know so I mean that's pretty much. That's the smart move. Though right I would just sort of Adam absolutely that can change smart move and particularly. Family with your elderly relatives, but yeah anyone. I'm meeting I mean I visited with a friend. The other day and I hadn't seen her while, so we sat outside at her place. And normally we'd give each other a big hug, and we you know we set a solid six feet apart outside, and we hung out for a little while, and and that's just the new normal, and honestly you can get used to it, and it's A. It's a little hard. Hopefully you have somebody in your life that you're able to give to a separate mental health discussion, but. You might need to just hug that person more, but yeah, this is, it is hard. It's hard, but you kind of do get used to it I'm finding myself not having to remind myself not to go up and hug people not that I walk around hugging everybody, but you know. I mean it's. Just! Don't WanNa seem standoffish, but on the other hand also do not want to spread or catch the Cohen so everybody understands that I think I think for all the people out there. Who never liked hugging anyway? This is a dream come true. Those folks yeah. That's true, yeah so. This? The gotTa gotTa remember the silver linings where he can find him. I guess I don't know but. Know people continue to struggle economically right now you know as businesses are still not fully opened or may may not have as many. Staff on, and so that's hard to so the mental health aspect of this continues to be difficult with some isolation, or economic. Stress and and so really encouraging people to do what they need to do to take care of themselves to reach. Some people getting in touch with people they haven't gotten in touch with in a long time and doing more phone, calls and zoom. What you need to do, yeah. For help when you need it, say hey I really need to talk to somebody and I feel like people are really stepping up and helping each other that way as well. That's great. I wanted to check in with you. You know put on your your epidemiological hat here for a moment or or just. About the disease itself is the corona virus, changing or new strains of it out there I see reports from time to time that it's becoming more prevalent among young people What what is the latest on the sort of biology here? Sure what we know about it so far, that said it's a very slow moot. Mutating virus, which is good news. It means that as you work on a vaccine. You don't have to necessarily fear that by the time you've got one. It's no longer applicable, so that's good news that appears to be slow mutating it continues to. Present in the way that we've learned in the PLATTE past few months. More people are getting corona, but that's also because we're testing more people so. You know as our supreme leader mentioned. If you don't test you, you would never know. But yeah, more testing certainly allows us to know more, and so we're seeing that more people. Young people are getting it not as severe illness in young people and that that is good The downside to that is then if you're young person, you may feel a little invincible and and and forget that when you're out even the person you're next job, their fellow young person, even if they get, that might not seem like a big deal, either except that somebody is going to be touching, somebody else or reaching out who is more vulnerable, and that's where you start to. Start to become more dangerous. Of course, young people getting it who also become very ill so i. don't mean to suggest that no one young would become very ill. We're certainly seeing that especially in states with higher numbers. I mean you think about Arizona four thousand cases. That's not four thousand people over eighty. You know that's a range of people, and probably some of those even the younger groups may have a significant illness with this so. We are lucky in Vermont, but it's not just luck I think it's good leadership, and I think it's could behavior on the part of Vermont irs and again really encouraging people. We don't want to end up where these other states are so as much as we can do, and the health department has really stepped up to try to contain these outbreaks. Health Department but plenty of partners you know ems steps up for testing Police have really stepped up I just think partners businesses. Everyone's really coming forward. You mentioned the strategy of keeping your numbers down by using less testing. which has been pretty widely discredited, but I saw something online spoofing that and saying. If you're worried about summer heatwaves, you store your thermometers away, then exactly. Yeah, no I am. Being. And I know that you're not supposed to do that on radio, because people can't see your face, but no. Yes certainly certainly I think what I meant is when you don't test then you may be surprised when you start testing and feel like it's new that young people are getting it. It's not new. They were getting it the whole time, but now that we're testing more. We're seeing it. Although in Vermont, even among our as symptomatic people, we are not seeing high numbers We can test six or seven hundred people at a clinic who come in a symptomatically not because they're in a higher risk group. Necessarily, they're just coming in, and they're curious to get testing and there times when we test six or seven hundred people and we have zero positive results. So it must be a good day. That's and there's plenty of days like that. We just had a clinic in a nearby town where we were concerned, there had been an outbreak, and we test an additional two hundred and fifty people, and none of them came back positive, so so even among as. Right now are testing. in our testing is showing much lower infection rate, and that's unique in Vermont. Because we worked so hard. That could change of course. is is still that Q. tip way up your nose, or is there some other less uncomfortable methods now? It's still a q. tip up your nose. But we are now introducing. Where we can. Because we have limited supplies nasal swab, so the fringe nasal slob goes way up. Although painful as you know, you would think if you relaxed into it, but the nasal mouth goes in You know closer to the front of the areas, and and so we're starting to use that for particularly the elderly because we don't want it to be uncomfortable for them for children. and for others, and we're hoping eventually that we can shift over entirely, because also requires less protective equipment So you, we got a shipment and so were. Starting on that and hoping to do more of that. Tracy Dolan has been my guest. Deputy Commissioner Vermont Department of Health We're about out of time, but I thank you very much for joining me this morning. Okay thank you very much. You too. We're GONNA top of the hour break, CBS News a couple of words responses. When we return, we'll be speaking with one of our correspondents from axios and then. Dan Richards legal analyst will join us in the second hour for discussion about that big ruling out of the US report incident. Stay with US folks. WE'RE OPENING UPSTAIRS AT THE WARREN STORE FOLLOWING CDC guidelines. We will allow three people at a time from ten to four Friday Saturday and Sunday and eleven to three Monday, and Thursday until further notice, or you can email Lori L. O. R. I. AT WARREN STORE DOT COM to make an appointment. There's lots of great summer clothing at fifty percent off outside and new spring merchandise upstairs. Please were mask. We have disposables and we will be selling organic wired ones from product think-tank. We'd love to see you. STAY SAFE MAINSTREAM Warren village. Now back to the Nave Graham Show on Wd FM and am. Thanks for staying with us into our second hour on this June thirtieth twenty twenty Tuesday morning and We We have one of our correspondents from accident. axios terrific online news service, joining us this morning to talk about some of the big national headlines occurring out there and I believe. It's per hour. Is that right? They're? Already. Thank you for joining me and. Wanted to check in with you about a few things one is that we were just talking with our deputy health commissioner here in Vermont about. Vermont Real of the good control over the coronavirus pandemic with their own small states borders. We've had fifty six deaths that we've had a total of. Twelve hundred eight cases in since the pandemic began of people testing positive for the coronavirus. and that I was blown away to think that that's the entire pandemic for Vermont. more than three times as many people tested positive, apparently on Sunday in Arizona four thousand people of four thousand new cases in Arizona obviously much bigger state than Vermont but. Even given that it's just it kind of puts this whole thing in some kind of weird perspective. What are we hearing out there nationally are. Starting to put the brakes on their reopening efforts. Are being spikes century opening that for while we're being attributed to this testing state health department, and those will health officials, but now it's really coming back so just people going to bars, people going to rush trust people not always wearing masks. There's no national mandate of course, and some states have started to put in math mandates, but a lot of areas including Florida, which is a virus hotspot is heard municipality or county or city, so a couple of states have started to walk back. They're reopening Florida Texas. New Jersey Arizona yesterday shutting down Jin bars and nightclubs through Monday, so it's saying that these governors and these health officials are taking a step back causing the reopening, trying to curb this A. Sudden Spike, so we're not facing tentative second ways as soon as originally planned to. Originally been sort of foreseen for later years during the winter months during the cold months, but it's coming in now before trying to block it out. Yes, it's interesting that in certain places you think. At a very kind of basic and practical level. It's just difficult to wear a mask while you're in engaged in the normal activities you do in the place. I think of gyms now. It's tough to be on a treadmill or elliptical trainer or something have a mask on your breathing pretty hard typically, and and You know, and you're sweating and it's just. You know that's that's Kinda. That's hard, so I'm I'm sure those places are most prone more more prone, perhaps than I don't know a supermarket in other place, a lot of people go in, and and there could be you know quite a number of people around easier to wear where masking is in an air conditioned supermarket than at a gym all in the same thing you even in a bar a bar. You're talking and you're. You're drinking. You're going to put a glass lips. Lift your mask every time you do that I don't know I. Mean is that part of the issue with those soda? Being the tip of the spear here gyms in bars. Bars I. Think are an issue because younger people have been meeting into the reopening. Increased rate compared to older populations, vulnerable populations and the bar shutdown I, know and Texas and Florida it was largely geared towards telling twenty somethings and thirty something through becoming the new positive population for the coronavirus to go home The, mass themselves. They're definitely difficult at gyms. There are some exceptions and stay orders. If you're exercising jogging meant because it is different than if you're in a supermarket like you said, but over on the public health data, so for shattering that mass will be the defining factor on if we are able to curb the spread to have effectively opening, or if we're going to be numbers, increase the same way we saw earlier this year. causing the stay at home order set. Of course. Nobody wants to go through it again. Yeah, I mean that is. That was really tough on me. I mean there were times in March and April when. My little town. Vermont reminded me of You know East Berlin after the or before the Wall came down. In the I was over there in the mid eighties and. Making so visits to East Berlin and and it was pretty pretty dead on the scene was just not not happening thing so. but I but I I wonder Whether there are. Indications at all that that the the second sort of of Of. Tightening up closing down and so on is starting to have an effect yet, or is it too soon to tell? Former FDA commissioner. Scott Gottlieb actually went on CBS on Sunday and talked about this, and he said that we are not going to see the aggressive actions. Governor is an lawmakers are taking desires. Hotspots take effect for several weeks. You think about in New York. They imposed Thursday at home. Order yet. Their peak of coronavirus cases can several weeks later because it takes so long to mitigate that spread for. Test to come in. Of course, there's a thank thinking vacation period you can get the virus and not know for fourteen days, and so even though we're starting to see these shutdown. Come in, we're not really going to be able to see if they bring us back down to the numbers in the faces that public health officials to be for quite some time. I wanted to shift gears. If we can and ask you about another big story, which has been bubbling long for the last few days, and that concerns the what did the president knowing? What and when did he know it? stuff on the alleged Payment of bounties for killing of US troops by the Taliban and affiliated groups in Afghanistan It appears now that it's there's a lot of pretty solid reporting out there indicating. The president at least was offered a daily brief back in February I believe it was and How's this thing shaken out now? There House Democrats are going to be looking at the situation this morning, and especially focusing on back question of did president. Trump, know about these bounties. Of course. He claimed he was never briefed on it. Saying that his intelligence officials didn't think be information was credible, and therefore did not relate to him, but you're right. There's some top notch reporting coming out showing that he was offered a daily intelligence brief on, it'd be once and that top White House officials were aware in early twenty, nineteen of the alleged bounties on US troops officials are still. Still investigating whether any Americans actually died as a result of those Bonnie's, but it definitely is a tense moment for d Russia US relations, and of course, already a complex thing where you're talking about the trump presidency allegations of Russian collusion in two thousand sixteen and President Trump's relationship with Vladimir. Putin is always a hotly watched issue, and so the House Democrats that are looking at it today or going to be I'm sure very diligent and impose a lot of scrutiny on that question did trump know about these Russian bounties on US troops? Speculating that this could be a case. similar to a kid who's not paying attention in class, and maybe you know. He's sitting in a room. and somebody was going through the daily brief form, saying by the way one of the things we're finding his ex and and he's got his attention on something completely different or I, don't Know My. Kids in school who were? Sitting in the back row, flipping quarters off your elbows I mean I. Don't know if it was quite that bad, but you soon. I mean. Someone. WHO's not known for being really diligent student of his daily briefs? Yeah there definitely is premature. Reporting indicates that President Trump has been the most diligent and. Looking at the details having fairly brief, seeing engaged knows especially when compared to the e- records. Previous presidents have eight engaged with their daily briefing. That's certainly a question you know president trump can be rather like day school on some things look at the white power video that was re tweeted from his account over the weekend. You know at the beginning video you could hear very clearly. People screaming light power the president, claiming that he did not hear that it very well could be an instance if the president was briefed by, she just didn't necessarily catch that detail. Yeah a about that white power video. seems to be the latest in a series of. Instances, where the president does, things, says things which could be most kindly interpreted to mean little or nothing. Or more darkly interpreted and I'm thinking here of for instance the the famous visit to Michigan where he was extolling the the bloodlines of noted Nazi sympathizer. Henry Ford, and everybody understands that what an issue what sort of. Talisman or whatever blood is for the Nazis the bloodlines and so on. to go there and use that language and phrase that guy. trump's defenders will tell you really meant nothing. He just was there. You know extolling the founding of accompanying. He's visiting. and And so this one apparently means nothing because he wasn't. He didn't catch the chanting at the beginning of the video. There have been other instances like this which could be? In one interpretation regarded as signals to You know sort of the white power white supremacist. Movement in the United States or they could be regarded as much ado about nothing How do you think these things are? Are they adding up, are they? Are they being connected by anybody? What's what's what's the word out there? Themselves I think just very much either beholder president. His doctors are going to like you, said they. Split. He didn't hear that part It's not connected. It is not a part of the scheme and Denver concert into it. You know you can almost guarantee that. Element of that white power video of others such as Michigan trip of all those things put together going to be things that Joe. Biden capitalizes on in his race against. Trump end, November, but at the end of the day trump is slipping in the polls. He is struggling to sell this economic comeback. That heave accounting counting on for his twenty twenty did he's? Got Tough. Go ahead of him. If you're looking at it, say to play right now against fight in November and the catch. All is really that fight in isn't doing much, she's. Largely staying out of the spotlight focusing on virtual town halls. He's not planning rallies again. He there's this narrative that Biden's been hiding out in a safe manner, but it's working for him, so it's sort of a it's not broke. Don't fix it argument from the debit card can't. Yup I don't know if he's grown roses in his basement, but it could be a sort of weird, not incumbent Rose Garden strategy. Who? knows. Ursula for now to get, but I really appreciate you spending some time with us this morning. It is always good to talk with you folks and And we are grateful. Happy beyond. Already, we'll talk to you soon. We're gonNA find out what happened yesterday. the Supreme Court on the long running controversy over abortion, legal access to abortion in the united. States of America would help sort all this out is. Dan Richardson. A regular guest on the Dave Ramsey show who. is. Provides legal analysis forest. He's very kind to help us out with all that and Dan is a very active lawyer. In Montpellier. Former president of the Vermont Bar Association and. We enjoy having Dan on as we do again this morning Dan. Thank you so much this morning for joining me now. My pleasure Dave. So. We have a very interesting Case out of the Supreme Court yesterday, which might be a bit of a surprise to to some casual watchers of the court but those who studied more carefully. I think are have a fairly good understanding of what happened in. Why so walk US through it? What did the court? What are the courts? Say regarding regarding abortion. And how does it fit into a larger picture? Sure, so what the case was came out of Louisiana. an dealt with A. a statute that the state legislature had passed, which required abortion providers to have admitting privileges at a hospital To function, and if you do not have at least one doctor on staff that had admitting privileges at a local hospital. You couldn't operate an abortion clinic. So it didn't. It didn't outlaw abortion per se but it it had that effect, and these are often what are called by. Planned, parenthood and pro choice groups is trapped laws which they're. They're not on their face. Outlaw out Making abortion illegal, but they do outlaw. In practice, and and the fact here is that the admitting Process and privileges was particularly difficult. Because abortion providers don't tend to send patients to hospitals, it's it's an outpatient service most of the time, and as a very very small percentage that do go actually to the hospital or need that kind of additional medical care, and what makes this, and so it's not as if the hospitals are saying because you provide abortion. We're not gonNA. Give you admitting privileges. It's more a function of numbers, which is doctors who have admitting privileges have to admit so many patients. Per month or per, year. As a sort of quotas, admitting privileges and in this case, the the abortion providers just simply aren't providing the high enough numbers, so most of them cannot get. Admitting privileges to the local hospitals. Let me. Let me stop in and ask for more. Do you know if most abortion clinics? Have Physicians on staff. Yes most you. Got To have an. Addition Okay, so so then in in the next threshold is. Does this physician have admitting privileges at the local hospital and? Because you know they're. They're working their basic work days to work at the abortion clinic and very few very few patients go from the abortion clinic to the hospital. There are not enough admissions to get the. Get this Dr Privileges at the local hospital, right? That's right. That's right. Okay And in part I, mean think of it as like any other outpatient medical service which. You know if you go and I don't mean to equate the two fully, but just for the very limited purpose of. Describing it this way, which is if you have dermatologists, most dermatologists that are. MD's. Don't necessarily have admitting privileges in less. They do surgery. and ask because most of their work is done in an outpatient clinic and they do not have to send their patients to the hospital. So right grades where it. It's where within the medical hierarchy. That they said and what was found at the District Court level was that this did not serve. A particularly legitimate. medical purpose which. Did Not make. The care better. It did not improve the health. services offered the seem to be a restriction under the guise of that. that was intended really to be a roadblock to being able to provide these services altogether. Under the framework that planned parenthood versus Casey which was. An early nineties Supreme Court decision, which is the. Has. Has surpass Roe v Wade, really as the as the standard for abortion care they They found it to be an undue burden on the women's right to an abortion. In that early portion. Of pregnancy, and so, and it did not meet a compelling state interest, and and so they struck it down now why this was a surprise here today in the I mean yesterday and the Supreme Court is that you have a majority now of the Supreme Court justice is who, on the record in various cases have said. We wish to strike. You know we don't agree with Roe, v Wade, we think it's was wrongly decided case, we think. there is not this inherent constitutional question it and we wonder. Whether There is this inherent sort of constitutional right to an abortion. But you have the result that you got yesterday and and to be clear. What happened was yesterday was there was a plurality opinion? So the way the court came down was four one four. meaning. The liberal majority of the liberal wing of the court, the four justices voted to affirm the district court. Which is strike down this Louisiana Law. You had the four conservative justices saying. reversed the District Court We think this law is meet constitutional muster. And, then you have just chief justice, Roberts who? Votes to hold the. the District Court. But does so on very very limited grounds and does not join the pluralities opinion, but writes his own separate opinion as to why he votes the way he does. And what's interesting about justice, Roberts is that when? He's an `institutionalised. And why he voted the way he did is the Louisiana Law is actually not new. about four years ago, the Supreme Court dealt with the exact same law coming out of Texas. And he wrote a decision striking down that law as an undue burden on a woman's right to an abortion under flam parent hurt versus Casey. And the Louisiana Law was the exact same law now. Usually you don't have this type of situation. But what happened was in the meantime, Justice Kennedy who was the fifth vote. On the Texas decision, and I should be clear the Justice Roberts. Was In the dissenting minority on that decision. He thought that the Texas Law. Met The constitutional requirements and he was more than happy to let it. Let it pass. But Justice Kennedy voted in this became the majority opinion, and so the Louisiana. Law was basically a sort of Redo. With exact same law thinking that with Kennedy gone and Cavanaugh now on the court, they had the five votes to overturn it. Roberts was unwilling to do that. Because of starry decisiveness, which is the doctrine that the US Supreme Court. Often mentions, but sometimes does not always follow which says. We tend not to revisit settled cases, which is, we are bound by our prior decisions, and we only revisit them under very specific and very limited. Situations and so You know that Robert T basically said I'm not revisiting a case. We settled for years ago I with it. Then I don't necessarily agree with it now, but I'm also not. Going to upend the court because data, our doctrine and we let things. you know we don't? We don't invite people to constantly challenge. Settle settle block not good for the country. It's not good for the system. It's not good for the court. It's. Very interesting that I mean Roberts, could theoretically. And probably is by some being accused of flip flop. But this is. Certainly a doctrine that I learned about in school. The story diseases this idea that we don't. We don't swing back and forth overturn former. Previous decisions here on the court. We kind of stick to our guns over time, so that's. Interesting development. Right. Now what what interesting of course is that? I think Robert lays out in his decision some question as to whether he would not. He might be more willing to revisit. Some of the reasoning of planned parenthood versus Casey. as well as possibly some of the fundamental issues of Grow v Wade. Now what we know is. We don't know how willing how far Roberts is willing to go. It's it's quite clear that the four member. Minority. Dissenting decision. On this case. Probably willing to revisit a lot of issues. By a Dan Dan riches, and we need to take a brief break here on the day Graham. Chauffeur's the bottom of the hour news, a couple of words from our sponsors. Let's continue our conversation on the other side. folks. We will be back shortly. We're opening upstairs. At the Warren store. Following CDC guidelines we will allow three people at a time from ten to four Friday Saturday, and Sunday, and eleven to three Monday and Thursday until further notice, or you can email Lori L., O. R. I. STORE DOT COM to make an appointment. There's lots of great summer clothing at fifty percent off outside and new spring merchandise upstairs. Please wear a mask. We have disposables and we will be selling organic wired ones from product think-tank with love to see you stay safe mainstream Warren village. It's the day Graham Show on Wd FM and am. We are back in. We're talking with Dan. Richardson in our legal analyst and he is. Talking with us about the big, Supreme Court ruling yesterday in which. The court declined to of hold a Louisiana Law that would have made it more difficult for women in that state to obtain abortions by re essentially placing new restrictions on abortion clinics. Requiring that physicians on staff there would have to have. Admitting privileges at local hospitals which is. Something, many abortion clinic physicians do not have because they have very few cases that end up going to the hospital, so they don't admit people and. That is just some. Feature of that. That part of the healthcare, world and Dan Richardson I'm. I must say that this this whole situation here with the. Supreme Court's ruling must be very frustrating I would think too ardent You know a Washington opponents out there which there are many in the United States. I think they thought with the appointments of Neal Gorsuch first election to president trump, and then the appointments of Neil Gorsuch and Brett cavenaugh that that they might be you know. Finally have turned the corner on this issue, but. It's not always that easy right. It isn't and that's. That's been the history of. The. Supreme Court and abortion. I don't I think the supreme. Court has consistently frustrated. Both sides with their abortion decisions since nineteen seventy. Three and certainly the last time. Anticipations were this high was was in the early nineties when planned parenthood versus Casey was decided because then new new newly appointed justice Thomas was expected to join Kennedy and others to overturn. Roe V, Wade, and instead you have justice O'Conner. Changing the standard lowering at in in some respects, but largely keeping it intact, and so you know this is the next sort of great sea change that I think there was an anticipation that you know this decision could have gone anywhere from a very narrow rollback of abortion rights to something broader. Certainly some of the jurisprudence that justice cavenaugh has has authored and on a DC circuit as well as some of the statements by Gorsuch, and and the others have indicated. That they're in favor of. that. They don't see the constitutional basis and I I should be clear. When we talk about abortion that the court, it's very easy to mix policy with some of the constitutional standards, and there's no doubt that if you polled a lot of these justices. The ones. the in the conservative wing. They are probably personally against abortion, and maybe you know politically so, but a lot of their reasoning and jurisprudence is is founded upon this constitutional question of. Is there a fundamental right? Did the founders intend? and do the documents themselves support this idea of abortion, and and this goes back. I mean. This goes back to the seventy S in which the the Roe V. Wade court found a right to abortion in the constitution that was really in some ways this pinnacle of their more liberal interpretation, and and the living constitution and involving constitution where you have. Rights of privacy that aren't necessarily articulated, but are found in whether famously referred to as the numbers. of the Constitution, which is to say when you have life liberty in the pursuit of happiness that includes privacy necessarily as as one of the shaded areas covered by those big umbrellas. And you know I think what happens a lot of times in in these abortion cases as you get into some of. It fundamentally pits a lot of these constitutional interpretive theories against each other coupled with the fact that you know for the forty. Almost fifty years this. This debate has dominated in former another a great deal of of political. Races and policy. Yeah? Let's let's bring in a couple of listeners who are on the line. Let's go to Ruth in Sheldon Good Morning Ruth. Yes I think it's fair to point out that every other surgical outpatient service in Louisiana have to have hospital admitting privileges so this is an exception for abortion I object to his sane that most abortion clinics have doctors. Presiding over the abortions, that certainly is not the case in Vermont, anybody can do an abortion, and they cannot be held accountable for any. Damage that they do, they cannot be sued. They cannot be stopped. this is You're not protecting women. When you allow. In proper healthcare for women, and it's a disgrace this this supreme court decision is a disgrace. It is not protecting women and their health and abortion is a surgical procedure, and it does cost complications. They're never reported because the woman goes to the hospital. And and the. doesn't take care of the complications. They're not reported complications, and then the hospital reports about something now. So there's a lot wrong with the abortion industry in the United States, and they're not taking into consideration women's health. Okay. Thank you for the call. Let's go to Eileen in Jericho Good Morning Eileen. Hike extra taking my call the previous caller said it better than I could. That was one of my points. one also address the The starry desus. Sorry, not that right there have been other issues in our in our country's history where these Abuses really has been blessed to court has overturned. You know like slavery and. I think the one The Sterilization laws. I mean there have been some pretty. The things that we think now is the. incredibly. Engineering and they those things have been, and I believe that abortion is. In this realm I mean. We're taking the light of a human team. And To me. That seems justify. Something's going to be overturned and I think something. How ironic that. Right now I'll be scratching. Thirteen torn down with people who supported slavery. We look at those keep. Those leaders as We don't like that part of our history and I think this is going to be another case one hundred years. especially now that science can look into the woman because he exactly what we're doing and humanity of that victims. And Someday, we're look back and and. You know. We. are going to be on the wrong side of history. Able Cable Eileen I gotTa go, but thank you very much for the call. I think you state your case, well Dan Richardson. I I lean raises an interesting question in my mind, which does involve this story disease. This doctrine this idea that. The court only reluctantly reverses its prior decisions. Of course it has done so a couple of you know a few times in in history. Generally. Longer I mean tell me if I have this right but I. Mean I'm thinking now. The the famous school segregate segregation cases, plus versus Ferguson which I think was in the eighteen nineties, which said that the that, if you if you offered, you can have separate separate, but equal schools basically, and then the brown versus board, of Education, nineteen, fifty four, which said that that really hasn't worked out and that we don't have what you separate your schools. You'RE NOT GONNA. have equal schools effectively and therefore school immigration is the way to go. Sixty years elapsed between those two decisions Does it take that long for reversal like that to happen? And it started to cease more likely to be the the order of the day when you're dealing with a a decisions that come as close in time as this Texas decision and this Louisiana this. Sure? The those are good questions. I mean the couple sort. I minor technical corrections of course slavery was not reversed by Supreme Court. That was done undone by the thirteenth amendment to the COM- at took a constitutional change Yeah, and of course you know. Famously the US Supreme Court upheld it. upheld slavery prior to the civil war and plus he versus Ferguson was actually about railroad cars and the idea that you could have segregated rower railroad cars as long as they were separate, but equal but you're right. that in the larger point of Brown versus education overturned that separate but equal doctrine. and I think at maybe what certainly, if somebody was you know looking to curb abortion what they take away as as some comfort from this decision. which is that J. Chief Justice Roberts. Does Telegraph that you know while he's not willing to overturn this particular sort of smaller piece He is willing to revisit that larger piece, and that's obviously the irony of started slices that I was starting to talk about before the break. which is that I think what you have is. The court is not willing to revisit these small things. But sometimes they are willing to revisit these larger things, and certainly you know if you think about abortion and the ongoing issues that it has engendered you know it does. It is one of those issues, I think people thought evolve upon and just even going back to the original v Wade I mean Roe v Wade was itself premised on a lot of nine thousand nine hundred seventy s era, medical knowledge, famously the the author of that justice black them spend a summer writing his decision at the Mayo Clinic up in Minnesota where he was from. Doing Research on women's health and and medicine at the time, so in a lot of the language, the original Roe v Wade decision really reflects that that thought that idea, the third trimester and viability. Was was truth in nineteen seventy-three, and that's changed a little bit, and so you know when you have a decision in which that is baked into some of the underlying thinking. It does invite that sort of re rethinking and. The court. I could see particularly this court because you technically have five votes on there right now. That would at that have at one time, or another expressed a desire to revisit Roe v Wade. or planned parenthood versus Casey and so you know it may be something where Chief Justice Roberts is is saying. As An `institutionalised I'm not GONNA do this. This is really a very naked and very ugly attempt to exploit a change on the court, and just as I wouldn't want this to happen. If this had been sort of switched from the other side I'm not GonNa, do it here, and to that extent you know chief justice Roberts is being consistent with what he said he would be when he was appointed to the court, which is more umpire than policymaker. And so the starling strikes. Exactly you know that this is clearly. This is just too nakedly and clearly under the under the umbrella of the earlier Texas. Decision I'm not going to do it, but at the same time you know he doesn't, and that's part of the reason why he doesn't join the majority I mean the plurality decision. Is that I think he is willing to end all, but invites you know rethinking. Planned parenthood versus Casey in part, because it is in of itself a unique standard. Under the constitutional law this undue. Burden on a woman. Is Right to an abortion. Is a unique standard. There are no other constitutional standards that are quite articulated that way, and it's something that's evolved over time, and you know you could see someone like Roberts, who while is an institutional is also someone who is a textualist and you know probably is at the end of the day of offended on some level about the nature in which you know, this decision has arisen and how it has How it has come to be articulated, that said you know the other the other issue, and and you know. Wouldn't you think about the history of the court you know Robertson? A lot of ways is a disciple of Rehnquist. And when Rehnquist had the opportunity to overturn Maranda decision. which he famously did not like and did not believe with grounded in the constitution He didn't in part because it had become so. Permeated into American culture and so accepted that overturning it. was just something that the court couldn't bring itself to do and Rehnquist's couldn't bring himself to do because. It had become so embedded in into in into our. Our understanding of what our constitutional rights were. So you know to say this is going to happen this way. I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily start making wagers with the 401k on on the outcomes. While of course Miranda decision I mean once it started being read drag that you couldn't change it. There was just no way. That's right Jack Webb. You have your the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be used against Cetera so Hey. Let's let's bring in caller Rama's online from williamstown good morning. Good morning, this is a question about because you brought the men. The word unique was brought up, and I think the you know people like to try to bring in slavery with the abortion issue and such, but the relationship between a mother and the fetus that she has within our is a is a unique relationship that is not paralleled anywhere else in the world that I'm aware of as far as human beings. Go Anyway in that you know you have a direct biological connection there and so so. That's sense. The the growing fetus and developing into an infant is is a biological process that is. You know it's directly connected with the mother's biological processes in her using her body. To further development of the fetus, so I wonder if the courts of ever with that side of the equation at all and I'll hang up and listen thanks. Thank you. Ellis Dash sure well back in. You know back in the original Roe v Wade decision and like I indicated. Just as Lacombe became very interested. In that relationship, and that's really at the heart of this whole issue, which is no one disputes that each individual has a right to seek medical care as As, they see fit, you know we have no laws. Prohibiting people from going to You know an herbalist instead of a doctor you know there are. There are certain public health exceptions on the on the fringes, and I'll just pointed out before somebody does. You know such as immunizations but by and large. We we do recognize a certain autonomy of people to seek medical care. But you know what lies at the heart of abortion is the fact that you have? A. You have a woman, and you have a fetus, and the question is at the point of life. as people choose to define it. What are the rights of that unborn? Child and when do they become such vested such that the? that that they're to be recognized and protected. What Role v Wade tries to take that that that relationship it puts it on a point viability which is. The the fetuses rates start to become vested once the fetus. Can survive outside of the womb once it stops being. Functionally apart of the woman's body and dependent upon it For Life and and for. Nineteen seventy-three that was really. The first trimester was a women's rights trumped the fetuses. For abortion purposes completely that the state could not make any law. That would limit. an abortion in the first trimester, and the third trimester was where the fetuses rights were fully. we're fully vested such that states could make limitations, and that you know health of the mother or survival of both the mother and the fetus were something that. would be the key decision. Factors in the second trimester became the sort of battleground. At which point you know, there were allowance of laws. That might make restrictions on whether or not you know an abortion could take place in the state could require consent or other. Issues. Other other standards Casey changed that a little bit and made it about undue burdens. but did retain that fundamental point viability, but of course. By the early nineties, the point of ability was being pushed back earlier and earlier. You know with premature baby. Being born and surviving in incubators, that point of view ability was getting earlier and so you know that's been one of the struggles here. Is that Roe v Wade ultimately? Anchored on this idea. Of viability, which changes technology changes and this is. The question of Where do we? Where do we vast people's rights? And obviously you know I? If you're Catholic, it's at the point conception for other people. It's you know at the point of. you know much later either birth or right before or some point and viability you know, and obviously people will often make Straw man arguments and try and put the other side's point in the most. Ridiculous possible. But the fact of the matter is is that you know there is this societal debate? and. Have about that. I wanted to run this by you. Dent Let's look at the government's role for a minute and and you know. Let's imagine that I I haven't settled on this. By one hundred percent I'm just sort of toying with it and trying to figure out whether it makes any sense at all Looks Look at the government's role as opposed to wear in the development, the fetuses right right at the moment. Traditionally in moral philosophy, the government stepped in as people was created. As people exited. What is what used to be called the state of nature, originally human beings lived in this world where they had no government protection at all nobody did, and you basically offended for yourself out there in the woods or the savannahs of wherever you were and. Did the best you could. And and life was sometimes nasty, brutish and short. Is Thomas Hobbes? and. And that was the way it went. Imagined further for a moment that the last state of nature, the extent in the modern world is womb. And that It's actually in the womb when one. You can say all you want about how much developed and how viable et Cetera, but but it's on exiting the womb that one exits. The state of nature gets a birth certificate the first documentation. Of Their citizenship effectively. And and and they're and there, and then in their moves into the realm where where he or she is protected by the government. Does that make any sense at all. Well I. A little bit. But I guess the thing that I would push back on. As that as an argument is that? You know the social contract that you're describing. isn't necessarily. By all of us We exist within it with sort of a zone. Of a social contract and you know the womb exists within that social contract. and just simply because the person in the womb hasn't necessarily been informed of the social contract doesn't mean that they're any less subject to because. The the woman is herself within that. That zone I think part of you know. oftentimes it just comes down to the question of. what is? What is life and is there a priori? Kind of existence, such that rights would be reasonably. Imposed you know we. We have a scale of legal implications for people throughout their life. For example, children cannot form contracts or be bound by contracts because they don't have the capacity to do so. and oftentimes the abortion debate about this is. If, we have a cluster of cells whether they be a fetus or stem cells or whatever human cells V. Do those things have rights and do they have? Do they rise to the level of existence such that we deemed them to have rights as opposed to? Any other material on earth, such that we would include them within our zone of social contract Yeah, and that's that's ultimately where. Reasonable people disagree in where they have those those debates, but I I guess I would just push back on the idea that you know I certainly understand the idea that this is sort of a wild. The womb is is somewhat outside of society but I I I don't think so I mean I think ultimately it is within, and that's where the government gets. Has The you know has the authority to regulate it is that you know the woman exists within the social contract and we you know some people would see the idea of a social contract not committing merck. And if you believe that the fetus is in in and of itself of life, form, human life form that. Is entitled to Full Rights of a human being. Then it does follow that those can be regulated because you're talking about you know the crime of of you know. Some people would put it bluntly as as or feet aside. and. You know this is. This is the fundamental question, because if it is just a cluster of cells, just assuming for the moment. That it is just not a human being, but is at pre human being is just genetic material. then it's out murder homicide, and there's no justifiable reason to regulate it other than. The, same reasons we regulate any of the medical profession. What I hate to. Resolve this today. Also by out time. Dan Richardson has been my guests is our legal analyst Day gramshop here? The WD FM and am thanks for listening folks It will be back tomorrow with another edition of our program and We wish you good afternoon. Stay healthy there. Washington's more you that CETERA.