19 Episode results for "Saudi Royal Family"

Wednesday, Nov. 21: Michael B. Jordan, Kristin Chenoweth

The View

37:51 min | 2 years ago

Wednesday, Nov. 21: Michael B. Jordan, Kristin Chenoweth

"Subscribe to our podcast to get hot topics delivered every afternoon. And while you're at it rate us and leave a review of great Turkey day breath, because the view is live siding with Saudi the president stands by the Saudi Royal family, despite growing evidence that links the phrase to the death of Johm kashogi is he letting them get away with murder plus superstar Michael b Jordan talks about climate back in the ring for creed to and Kristen chenowitz reveals how she's joining forces with whooping. Here come hump day hot toppings with Whoopie. I'll be huntsmen joy Behar sunny hostile and Meghan McCain. Now, let's get things started. Since in is the day before thanksgiving, we figured we'd celebrate it a little early with some appetizers and these very appetizing appetizing here. It does. What's on the table or am? I telling anybody was their site. All right. Well is stub wanna table? Looks. Now, did you what probably most people are going to be doing around this time tomorrow, we'll talk about couple of hot topics like the guy in the White House is taking a lot of heat for defending Saudi Saudi Royal family, despite growing evidence that links the prince to the death of Jamal kashogi. Here's what he said about it. Let's Merika first Saudi Arabia. If we broke with them. I think you're all prices would go through the roof. I've kept him down. They've helped keep them down. They didn't make a determination energised. Like, I said, I think it was very maybe he did. Maybe he did they did not make that assessment. The Shii is looked at it. They've studied it a lot. They have nothing definitive says one in eight eight tweeted, thank you Saudi Arabia for lowering prices. He said it's about American first. But is it what you know? I looked out a Canada provides forty percent of oil Saudi Arabia on. Percent. And yet he's so nasty the Canada just control Jin kill anybody. And he's mean to Canada and nice to Saudis. So what can we make that? There's another reason we don't know what it is. Maybe it has to do with the fact that they bailed him out of bankruptcy one time. Maybe it's the fact that they bought the entire floor at Trump Tower one time all these little things that have to do with his pocketbook and not ours. I, and you know, I think it's all public record as Americans we really need to educate ourselves because we really do need a full accounting of his where his money comes from. Because the emoluments clause is very clear, the president should never put his personal wealth before American lives America in general and American interests. And it just seems to me like you just said joy when you look at his, you know, he's bragged about his financial relationship with Saudi Saudi Arabia. I think we have a clip of something he said at an at an Alabama campaign rally. Do we have any Rabi and? Get along great with all of they buy apartments. From me. This spend forty million sixty million supposed to dislike him I like him very much and in nineteen Eighty-six Osama bin Laden's brother should feel bin Laden lived in Trump Tower. We also know that since two thousand sixteen Saudi books at his Chicago hotels have gone up one hundred and sixty nine percent a similar uptick in Saudi bookings in New York. So what we have to ask ourselves. I think is Americans is if the Saudis are intentionally lining his pockets, what do they expect in return that is the question, and perhaps they expect to get a pass on the killing of Jamaica show. They've been a couple of statements made by couple of Republicans against the president against the president one of them being Lindsey Graham Graham, Marco Rubio, rand, Paul, right? You have what they said maybe many things I mean rand Paul who it's a cold day in hell when I agree with him. So the president indicates that Saudi Arabia is the lesser to evils compared to Iran. So the US won't punish Saudi Arabia for the brutal brutal killing and dismemberment of dissident journalist in their consulate. I disagree. Listen. I knew we were going to come out here on this show today and have a beautiful thanksgiving spread thanksgiving tomorrow. Tomorrow kashogi was cut up into little pieces, and brutally murdered for being a distant journalist. His family are Americans here in this country. There's a tectonic shift happening in our country right now, where human rights violations were okaying that we don't have the same response that we once dead. And I think it's the reason why the Magnitsky act continues to be so important, and it's worth noting that seventeen Saudi nationals on Thursday where sanctioned because of the magnet. Ski acton. Their connection to this killing. I believe in America where we are a geek it as Ronald Reagan said is shining begin on top of a hill and city Ponta hill. And I just don't know where we are as a country where you can slaughter a journalist and we're going to bat an eye. We're going to say there will be no ramifications for this. And it sends a message globally that you can brutally murdered did on the journalists. And it's okay. And our president will listen to the audio because it's too intense to here. And it's a really said just. I don't know what's happening, and it I don't mean to make us about my father. But things were very different when he was around in it. I feel very unsafe and they were shifting in a way that is very dangerous. And it's not the America. I grew up in. It's not the American public into take place. John mccain. Yup. I mean the other day we were talking about the navy seal mcraven. Yes, who captured bin Laden and Trump this hell hymns, he helps capture bin Laden and Donald Trump, basically distemper and said, well, they should have captured him sooner. We'll been lions brothers living at Trump Tower. Of course, he's going to say something like that. It's but the GOP put out a statement saying, well, you know, this guy mcraven did back. Hillary thus saying that they are backing Donald Trump in that statement, what the hell is going on with the GOP that they would say something like that against a navy seal hero in this. Going back to the clip that we played in the intro. His response to reporter saying that he cares about America. First. There's nothing America first about throwing your intelligence community under the bus ever. And we've seen time and time again and these are moments where president either rises as a true leader or you fail miserably. And I think he's failed miserably on this. Because these are the two most two of the most important issues that we hold so dear to us Americans as mega mentioned human rights, but also freedom of speech. And if we don't stand for that if we don't stand strongly for that, what are we as a country? What are we stand for? So State Department official who who was seeing the version of the assessment of of what they found said it is quote, blindly obvious. The crown prince not only knew about it, but ordered the murder of this Jalen and the president. He's not even sure if the crown prince even knows we should Marco Rubio made a great point that human rights violations lead. To mass migration help extremism, flourish and often results in new government's hostility towards the United States because we support their oppressors. So when we support oppression when we support murderous dictatorships when we're supposed to be beacon of freedom globally again. It's tectonic shift of what it means to be Americans very depressing to tell you all this the day before thanksgiving. But you know, what it will do? I hope that it will remind people what our freedoms are about. So that we can give thanks for how free we are and Weeden and still protests and scream out loud. When we see things that are wrong because nobody needs to take this. Nobody needs to be quiet about this. If this happens here is going to happen over here and over here and pretty soon is can be happening right there. So we onto our selves as Americans to remember what thanksgiving means and why we give thanks, and I know you're going to say, okay. What please. I know. You have a break. Yes. We'll take a break. We'll be back. Later of joy, why did they har- bail on her latest plan to keep the pounds off over the holidays? This november. This is the place to be her and the stars are coming out to voice their view. Michael, Jordan, Christon chenowitz, Sean, don't forget about Bernie Sanders that is and Juno hill. Have a lot to say. And here comes near is. Yes. It's a musty few. Oh month long there. Go right here on ABC. Ahead cre- to star, Michael Jordan, and the wickedly talented, Kristen Genoa. Talk about him again and the ads that come on. Let's we don't want do that. We're done with them. We're giving. Thanks for y'all y'all want to know, what was on the table. There's bake three. With pecans corn bread bites Chesapeake crabcakes figs with bacon. Not squash Crisanto eighty pristinely. Somebody. I think I went out with Frankie Christina. I got married. I did not. And that's why I'm here working behind. We got a beat. Have a beef and go cheese, many Filo tartlets. That's. We have court meatballs live tiny bows with cranberry sauce and chicken appraise, his skewers. That's what's that's this chicken gravy and not tell you folks are Tom. If you still need some ideas for your thanksgiving dinner, you wanna know about these goaded website. Here's what I really want to say. Mass quantities will be consumed tomorrow. And the Orlando Sentinel gave a guide on work off your thanksgiving feast, for example, two and a half mile walk. We'll walk up four ounces of Turkey. Yeah. And then. Which comes in at one hundred ninety calories at are you planning exercise 'cause I know here there was some exercising going on yesterday. We try. You do. What happened? By the way, I feel comfortable eating right now because I work my butt off yesterday at a dance class that someone who shall remain nameless organized the dance instructor. And then what happened joy, do you tell them? You're good doing very well. We're all flooding and we're doing cancer teens. We're invis-, and I turn to my right and someone has left the clan. I put in ten minutes. It was your it was my on you. I hate exercise with passion. I in love with X not just like to walk. I don't do classes because that very reason like you do yoga, I can't even touch my toes. People are in Fresno off. I very limber. I'm limber. But so what I heard you were not. Virtue were not enriching last. Listen. Took this class because I figured musical make me move. Yeah. I didn't expect to have to do a Bob Fosse dance routine. I'm not being on saying the got the wrong bay. All of a sudden in ten minutes, I'm supposed to learn a whole routine today. It's complicated. Good job. A lot of the kids who were kid. Very good. I was watching them from behind while I stood there. And they were doing very good job. But I can't do it. All I want is some music and then organize the class. So what? One of the good things about getting older. You don't you don't wanna do anything? I don't want to. Right. You see half the first couple of steps like the grapevine step is it you've got the pivot step. And then all of a sudden, she just broke out such last Saturday Night Fever. You were not the worst in the class. I bumped into you when you're running out of the class. Yesterday. What you're supposed to be Dan flat. And I've never going back to that thing going back. If you go again, that's never got hot. Hot. You know? Let's say I didn't go though. I mean, look what you wanna eat. It is a holiday you entitle if you're thinking about thinning up. Then you shouldn't be sitting in front of all that phone. Stay right. If you're not going to enjoy what you're doing don't go. There's no point in everybody. Now. We'll be right back. Back mega. Okay. So I was FaceTime timing with my little brother Jimmy yesterday, which I'm happy. He's becoming a part of the show, by the way is in the army national guard. And I just wanted to reminded me we should think and say thank you to all the soldiers who are in Afghanistan, specifically the Zona guard. Here's to the Bush masters and all the soldiers who can't be with their families tomorrow give thanks for what the sacrifice that they're giving all the border. Every body, and we buddy who's deployed all over the world. We have folks all over the world. And so thanks y'all with their families. Thanks show appreciative. No, this one is in Arizona Arizona, and he is ever very excited to talk about the view on FaceTime about it. More on the. Well, you know, I don't know. This is something that will be indulging in. But a lot of couples who. Who is? Thanksgiving. So brides dot com posted guide to having sex in your in-laws house. They're saying that you need a nap after the trip that make sure you lock the door. What do you do though the coats on the bed? There's always. Right. I haven't had an in-law in so long. I have no idea. Are you not if you're married you're not allowed to spend your maybe? Maybe future in-laws, maybe like your future inland while you're talking about people who are married. I think it's always this is so office, my mother-in-law's watching and she text. So hello. Laura, but digital they're going to do it in the bed. Before we got very sleep in separate bedrooms. And so it's you know, it's and you did did. It's uncomfortable. Another advice give don't get new acrobatic because you don't want it to noisy. I guess it was locked the door. There's no possibility for me that one. Limber though, I am you are limber. Yeah. I mean, I think it's because people feel that they like to have sex when his dangerous, let's face it. So danger, and they know you're. If you're not or you are gonna get you don't wanna get caught for the even more if we're not mentally. I remember you saying you have sex all over your house with Manny. Yes. Yes. All. Remembers think well done. Yeah. We try to criminal the rooms. So what are years you gotta keep it has your hits ever walked into lively. No thank God. I would die. They don't want to be. That's happening. It's it's happened in your family. Yeah. That's like my worst nightmare something like that. You know, what my? Conversation. As Michael Jordan wanna wish everybody early thanksgiving. Make sure you eat as much cane. I'm getting ready to go talk to the lady you've seen second. You see headlines across your screen all day, but you're busy. What do you need to know? What's actually shaping you? I'm Brad milkey from ABC news and every morning we start here. It was extraordinarily. I watching here in Singapore. ABC's new daily podcast a handful of stories just twenty minutes director Comey. Thanks for being with us. Newsmakers smart reporting taking you straight to the heart of the story starting here. Listen for free on podcasts or your favorite podcast out. It's the day before thanksgiving, and we're giving great thanks for Michael Jordan. How good is that being banned in the biggest superhero movie of all time Black Panther, and now audiences can't wait to cheer them on in the highly anticipated sequel to creed creed too. Mazing the fabulous in one of the nicest men on the planet. Mike, ABI joy. So my language craze. I wanna point out young lady over bam's when you move out the way the young lady right there in the red and the red right there. See the smile on her face. Right in the middle. Men. You're. Ever seen the audience like this? Believable. But happy thanksgiving to you earlier early all celebrating. I wanna know what the tradition is in the Jordan family what you're eating strategy eating strategy strategy for me. I just get one big plea, and I just kinda pile everything. And I just. And I just I don't like making multiple trips. I just think one big pile back to the couch, and I just eat until I I'm into a deep coma like sleep Paso, waking up in third quarter of the football game lane to Washington rest of the game. So if we will food, but we have to talk about the midterms which were two weeks ago, and we're still talking about it, obviously before the elections, you went knocking on doors of black families in Atlanta through mind them, how important their votes would be which was such an incredible thing to do. People were losing their minds his contract. So what made it important for you to do that? I mean, honestly think we keep saying this is the most important year every year. This is the most important. This is the most important, I think things have been progressively getting, you know, little worse. So this year is definitely the most important here thus far for voting. And I thought it was really important to get out there. And you know, let people know that their vote does matter the voice can make a change is need to get out there and actually exercise that right to vote that our ancestors had, you know, had struggled in the sacrifice so much to give us that ability. So I think when you're not. The ease. My way. But no, I just wanted to give them encouragement because the people that we were speaking with were local leaders of their communities that was getting other kids in the community out to the polls. And I just want to go out and think those people for doing such a great job in their community. Backing Stacey Abrams and stuff like that. So it was a really important to me. There's a lot of talk about inclusion in Hollywood lack of inclusion, but I someone told me that you basically taking the situation into your own hands. What what are you doing the walk the walk talking's cool, but I'd just like to lead. By example, I help wanna brothers right there. Inclusion politics policy for for the for the studio and just mercy just move gets finished doing about Bryan. Stevenson is the first film under that under that policy, and it's pretty much the first step to to to open up the doors and set a precedent for the studios to follow that lead. What does it mean? This basically means that you going to that your mandatory in each department head to see a person of color a woman. From the GT community that they have to be in heavily consideration for that. That's great. Is. Is a huge step. You know, a major so salute to to wanna brothers in their entire wondering. Yes. So your name is absolutely everywhere. Clearly from the audience reaction, you're getting Oscar buzz for kill monger. It's very exciting and your back as Donna's creed. In Crete to the first one was an origin story. What can fans expect from the second one? I think single time around honestly was honored to kinda rebuild on these characters in these relationships that we set up in the first one a little bit of revenge story. And I with the with the with the drag owes that come back play. Obviously that's a sore spot for a dynasty in his father the way where he died so much more of a love story, though. We wanted to challenge a with with with fatherhood with with getting fiancee's with all the obstacles that come with family and relationship we just wanted to see dinosaur mature over the years in over the course of the film, we see that. So get some action you have some love. Yes. Chris delone, aka rocky is back in your corner. I love him. But things aren't always simple. And we have a clip. And what's that supposed to mean that made you gotta do she smart thinking, but you wanna talk about smart decisions, right? You want us. How Sola Mon people taking me I've been here for you. Guy. Taking this fight with it without you. Not care about this. But when my dad got sick, I said over and over again, and it's from rocky. It's not how hard you get hit. It's how hard you can get and then keep moving forward. And I say that almost every morning, and I love those movie. I don't care about the no it's a that's the power of these of these films with rocky now creed in done is, you know, it's the motivation. I it's inspiring underdog kind of feeling of what's your limits or whatever challenges that are. And that's what I want people to feel and they see these movies to be inspired. It was it was the first to see what's let's see here. Susu fishy. Gotta game. Here with with their group of leathers. They go out and do things, and this is this is a trip. Put her on that ask for go. Are you still singing? You're good at so many things but singing is not one of them yet. You love. Less time. You hear of you building their new video. We have watched the moments. Hit those no. Song I'm camera shy in the shower hit all. Listen, man. You know, you always welcome at this table. You are have been a friend of the view for a long time. And we're just really so proud of you 'cause you know, a little bit, you know. Wash me grow up. Help me grew up, you know, and I really appreciate you guys being a home in a place to have these conversations in Spira people. Thanks. Guess what you guys do? It's really important in you know, it's a it's it's appreciated enough. So thank you. Our thanks to Michael b Jordan. You gotta go see cre- to. Okay. It's in theaters today. Go and see creed to not playing with Joe. Not playing with you. We'll be right back. Hi, everybody. It's Kristen happy thanksgiving. I'm coming up on the byu. The out shows needed big far from home. But you never forget where it all started. So what's it like when you go back to your? What I do. Motion. Never saw coming. The biggest prizes and personal messages. Always remember where you came from we walk from executive producer Whoopie Goldberg coming home, the thanksgiving night television events at ten nine central on ABC. It's all about. It's not. Win win machine. Her backs even enough. That was the Christian cheddar with blowing the roof off to celebrate the fifteenth anniversary of the Broadway smash hit wicked. I am still amazed that she is able to pack so much talent. She's this little fell. You can just put her in the pocket book and take a wherever you want to. Please welcome one of the greats of all time miss Kristen chenowitz. You too much. I love you. Love you too. It's so good to see you tell when they got a pillow for me. So I can see over this tape. How are you? Neven? That's not so bad and going to heaven, and it makes me feel ten feet tall. Yeah. Well, I am a huge superfan. As I told you backstage and I went to the fifteenth anniversary. If anyone thought fantastic fifteen years of. And I wasn't even the biggest fan girl. People dressed up for this. You it was a huge moment with you and demands L. I wanna know when was the moment, you realize that you were role would become so I contacted opening night in San Francisco we opened in San Francisco, and I went miss show. Not only are these roles going to hit because it was metoo before me to write. And I knew it. And I said where where do I sign for ten years a lot thinking about the advance? I'm new already knew and then we opened on Broadway. But I knew and, you know, wicked wasn't received critically as great as it as it should have been. But it didn't matter. Fully dressed. But you got something today. What was going gonna tell you? I forgot my panties. Unaware? Yes. Pretty. Chris. On my back awfully breezy down. There. Air-conditioning? That's right. As long as it comes in a pack. It doesn't happy. Oh, major grand entrance in some kind of flying bubbles. Scared. I mean, it's high up like that that makes me nervous. I was kinda nervous. We pass when I went up. I had to go up to five minutes to eight with past all the crew there in the wings. I'm like bye. Bye. Bye. And then. Yeah, it was a little nervous. But I was harnessed in so say that string can break couldn't. Well, it was it was wire ever it is and no. On me could. But I took on. I did have a bad neck injured Aaron it. Oh, I remember thinking. Oh, no, the doctor gave me some some place. And yeah. And should've told me taking a little bit less than my own body weight. So this is a note for y'all I came out of that bell was like oh. Which the western dead. I mean, I could hardly talk. But anyway, doesn't want that. Same medication today is ROY. We've been friends a longtime. So we so listen, you know, together we've been working on this Thanksgiving Day special. It's called I'm coming home. And we sent you back home to Oklahoma where you surprised your old drill high school drill team. And they surprise for you too. As it turns out, shall we look at the Clinton too. Okay. So can I see? Way. There's one of the. What that's what I wanna know. What what was it like? It's really something. When you go back to where you grew up. I mean, what was the biggest shock for you? That I was I thought I was a lot taller than I was everything was so small. But also just like that teacher. I didn't realize she was going to be there, and she instilled in me to be on time to be professional, but she also was positive role model. You did good Kristen. And I see that they're still doing and it made me really proud. So proud of it. She did she believed in me, and she believed in all girls. And I also say that when you go home, if you haven't gone home sick a home because becomes about a bigger deal. You know about a bigger deal than yourself anyway. Well, you know, you grew up with the arts, right? Well, I did I grew up in Brooklyn are Oklahoma. What there wasn't very many arts. But what what there was I did it absorbed. Whatever you could. And now I understand that you're paying it back. What are you? What are you doing? They about ten years ago. They opened that the performing arts center broken Aaron name, the theater the Christian Shenhua theater. And I thought well, I'm not old enough to have that. And they said, no, you are famous. Thank you. I had a heart attack. I was like no not yet. But what are you gonna do with that? When you see your name on there? You know, your dad's name your brand dad's name and your family name. I thought I'm going to start a Broadway boot camp. So this year will be your five people audition last year, we had a thousand kids why can only pick forty bring all my famous friends to teach you've been a part of it. You'll you guys are unsafe both, and they we do seven day intensive seeing acting dancing, and then we put on a show at the end, and I've got some future Tony award winners and Grammy winners. That's really powerful proud of it. Speaking of hometowns as you said, it's a comfort to go home. You are going to my hometown very soon. It's Salt Lake City Utah. You're gonna be performing with the tabernacle. Which is if you don't know what the huge, and it is the biggest event of the year, I'm excited because growing up, you know, in Oklahoma. We didn't have Broadway. We didn't have which just didn't have that stuff. So I watched the tabernacle Christmas special year, and though, you know, we don't agree on everything the same. I think it's important for me as a musician to get to make music with people that I have felt made have made beautiful music, most of my life. If I get to do it. Oil dog Bernie, a why no I know he's on Instagram at Bernie Bihar for those of you who want to check him out. He has about thirty thousand followers. I know. I mean, it's it's an embarrassment. I don't have that many. I understand that you have a dog. Also, what your dog dog is tender and she's rapidly coming close to thirty thousand four how come yours. Huzzah suck line. Mine doesn't. I don't know toy get a sock watching store right SOX came out yesterday. You know, I think they're great stocking stuffers. But I mean, he got like a mom of. Yeah. I think my kids accuse us love Bernie. But I love thunder. They're both cute. Also, that's very cute. I rescued her two years ago, and she just changed my life. Oh, I love her rescues great. You know, I ask you. Adopted some would say that I was rescue rescue. Also got that's so it comes full circle. Exactly. And that's what that coming home special really did for most beautiful. Also, thank you for having me burns. We'd love you. Come back. Thank you. Chris. Our thanksgiving special coming home tomorrow at ten pm right here on ABC. We'll be right back. Family. Great. Take time to enjoy the happy thanksgiving. ABC news chief White House correspondent Jonathan Karl from campaigns and controversies Putin bear responsibility for this may he may to store summits and stork tweets you'll ever I don't think it said all acting his ability to get the job done. Join me ABC's Rick Klein every week as we break down the biggest political stories of the day on the powerhouse politics podcast. Listen for free on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast app.

Michael b Jordan ABC Saudi Arabia president Osama bin Laden America Chris delone United States Saudi Saudi Royal family Bernie Sanders Marco Rubio murder Kristen chenowitz Oklahoma Canada Trump Tower joy Behar Trump Tower Chicago
Disappeared

Today, Explained

22:43 min | 2 years ago

Disappeared

"The crown prince of Saudi Arabia. Agai people call 'em b. s. may have just made a very big mistake. All right. Not to this disturbing story in an era where the press is under attack all over the world. The Washington Post is reporting. One of its columnists has gone missing at a consulate in Turkey members of the United States and Turkish governments think that m b. s. authorized hit squad to travel to Turkey and covertly, kill a Saudi journalist, who was there the crown prince may have thought, no one would notice, but people noticed and it's not going away. Jersey. Cried. Hi. Jamal crusher. She is a fifty nine year old journalist. He's also a Washington Post columnist. He was last seen October second in Istanbul, entering the Saudi consulate to get a document so that he could marry his Turkish fiance. He hasn't been seen since Alexia. Underwood is a foreign editor vox Turkish authorities or claiming that he was murdered in the consulate. Off to Turkish police announced they were conducting a murder investigation, Saudi Arabia, state news agency denied accusations. That special g was murdered in their consulates. So the Saudi government is denying that they've had any involvement saying that he left the consulate through another entrance. They're also saying that they're looking to find him and they're concerned about his whereabouts and that they're cooperating fully with the Turkish governments vestich in three days later, turkeys for ministry summoned Saudi Arabia's, embassador to Ankara and crown prince Mohammad bin some months Turkish police could search the Saudi consulates. They then invited journalists into show Jew was not there on Tuesday night. The Washington Post reported that US intelligence had actually intercepted communications of Saudi plans to lure hush. Oh, gee, and to bring him back to Saudi Arabia. They also said that the investigation has expanded to include the consul general Muhammed Delo tables residents since vehicle left the car. Consulate and went there for few hours round the same time that the journalists disappeared, and also the Turkish staff, the consul-generals house were told to take the day off. So that sounds kind of suspicious. The New York Times also reported on Tuesday that shook she was assassinated at the direction of the Saudi Royal court. So they're saying according to their sources that the direction came down on high to assassinate him and different officials. Different Turkish officials in different sources have said that there's a team of fifteen Saudi agents who flew from Maria d- and arrived in to private planes last Tuesday the day that the journalists disappeared and then left hours later. There's also all these gruesome rumors that are circulating. There's a Turkish official said that he was killed, and his body was dismembered with a bone saw. And they're also saying that there's video of the murder, but these things of yet to be confirmed. Wow. I mean, no one even knows if he's dead for sure. Nobody knows for sure. Could show Jews feel sate was pace. Getting up and down outside the consulate more and more anxious. Tell me a little bit more about Jamal, hush? Oh, gee, what's his background? He's not your quintessential dissident or activists, which is why this is a little bit more surprising to, no, I don't want my civil position. I always say I am just a right that I want a free environment to write and speak my mind, and that's what I do in the ocean post. So he was a prominent journalist in the kingdom for for several years. He made his career in the eighties nineties, working as a foreign correspondent for different Saudi newspapers, traveling across the Middle East Hanner viewed Osama bin Laden several times. And is that really fair again to comment dissident? He edited the Saudi newspaper, a what? He was a director of an Arabic language news channel, so he was pretty prominent and part of like the establishment. And then he also used to enjoy close ties to the Saudi Royal family. He worked as an adviser to prominent Saudi pr-. Rinse, who used to be the former head of intelligence, but over the past year. Oh, it say a year and a half with the rise of the new crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, hush. She become more critical of the Saudi government and as Mohammed bin Salman or MB is we know him his crackdown on free speech and sort of a rested. A lot of hustle, shoes, friends and writers intellectuals. He became afraid that he was going to be arrested. So he left the country in the summer of twenty seventeen. He resettled in the DC area and he said he was living in self-imposed exile. So we'll kind of things has he been saying about NBS who's the Saudi Crown prince who's essentially the lead of the country? I have some examples from pieces that he's written for the Washington Post. Here's a columnist for the global opinion section. Con from last September, which was titled Saudi Arabia wasn't always this repressive. Now it's unbearable. He writes, my friends and I living abroad, feel helpless. We want our country to thrive and to see the twenty thirty vision realized we're not opposed to our government and we care deeply about Saudi Arabia. It's only home we know are what yet? We are the enemy. I've made a different choice now. I've left my home, my family and my job, and I'm raising my voice to do otherwise would betray those who languish in prison I can speak when so many cannot. I want you to know that Saudi Arabia has not always been as it is now. We Saudis deserve better. And then he also wrote in April of this year in Saudi Arabia. At the moment, people simply don't dare to speak. The country is seen the blacklisting of those who dare raise their voices. The imprisonment of moderately critical intellectuals and religious figures, and the alleged anti-corruption crackdown on royals and other business leaders. Women today should have the same rights as men and all citizens should have the right to speak their minds without fear of imprisonment for replacing old tactics of intolerance with new ways of repression is not the answer. Did he know that he may have been risking his life sororities kinds of things? I think he did in August. He told a journalist who is a contributing writer to the New Yorker that that he thought that the Saudi government was after him and that they were, they would love to see him killed at least expressed his fears to too many people that he just couldn't keep living there made it in my life. I count retired here in America happily under just non-involvement issues and go on with my life, but motive for regular on children. What would he made the most is one monitor all it always go wrong in any country with talking about Saudi Arabia or Germany or Iraq. So who is NBS he's he's new to the Saudi leadership, right? Yeah. So NBS or Mohammed bin Salman. He's the crown prince and he is the heir to the throne. He's also essentially the defacto data. Day ruler, Saudi Arabia. He really consolidated power in June of twenty seventeen where he plotted against his cousin Hamad bin knife and pushed him aside. And he has tried to paint himself as this sort of reform minded like young progressive leader in in some ways, you thirty three years old. He's lose interest rate on women driving in the kingdom. He's allowed cinemas to open. But at the same time, he's also engaged in this purge of opposition and he is crackdown on activists. He's imprisoned dozens of activists. He's he's crackdown on free speech and any dissident voices in the kingdom are in danger of being thrown in prison. This point, even if somehow an investigation uncovers that Huzhou was murdered, will there be consequences for NBS. I don't think that there'd be consequences for him Bs. I do think that it would definitely change the relationship between her gains Saudi Arabia, and it could put strain on the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia since hush, like she was a resident of the US. President Trump has said that he's concerned about what's happening is version situation, bad situation. We want to get to the bottom of it. So on Wednesday, a bipartisan group of senators sent a letter to the Trump administration asking them to impose sanctions on anyone who responsible for the disappearance of the journalist, and this letter that the Senator sent triggered something called the global Magnitsky act of twenty sixteen. Now, this allows the US to impose sanctions on individuals who have committed human rights abuses anywhere in the world. So the Trump administration now has one hundred twenty days to decide whether or not to impose sanctions on Saudi officials, and this puts Trump in a tough spot. I don't like the concept of stopping an investment of one hundred ten billion dollars into the United States because you know what they're going to do. They're going to take that money, spend it in Russia or China or someplace else. So I think there are other ways if it turns out to be as bad as it might be there, certainly otherwise handling the situation. First of all, it should be known that President Trump has been very, very supportive of Saudi Arabia, an NBS he hosted NBS at the White House. He chose Saudi Arabia's his first trip abroad, and also the US has supported the Saudi led or in Yemen, which as we know is really horrific war. It's a bloody war. Tens of thousands of people have been killed, and the US is selling arms to Saudi Arabia, the refueling planes they're sharing intelligence with the country. So the US could withdraw their support or they could stop helping the Saudis. This really violent were in Yemen. As the government and NBS disappeared. Others, there are stories of Saudi ex pats who have been arrested or superior to their stories of distance or activists who were arrested in the United Arab Emirates and enjoying and a Saudi activist in Canada who makes you videos making fun of MB ests and also calling out the Saudi government further horrific human rights record has had two of his brothers and his friends and Saudi Arabia arrested. NBA is trying to send a message to Saudi ex-pats and dissidents and activists wherever they may be saying. If you speak out against the regime, even if you live in the US even if you have visiting another country, you aren't out of our reach. We can still get you. Coming up. I'm going to speak with a Saudi dissident who has been threatened by the government. He's scared of the government, but he's not going to be silenced. I'm Sean Rama's firm. This is today. Explain. Life insurance is super important, but a lot of people don't have it and policy genius things. That's because it's really hard to buy. You have to figure out exactly what you need, then you have to find the best quote, and then you have to hope you don't get swindling the way guess what policy genius did. They tried to make the whole process a lot easier for you. Paul's genius compares quotes from the top life insurance companies to find the best policy for you, and it only takes about two minutes and you can do all sorts of other things to you compared disability insurance home insurance, auto insurance, whether you know a lot about life insurance or nothing at all. You can start your search at policy, genius dot com. In just two minutes, you can compare quotes and they can inform decision for you and even people you love for people. You don't love, but you are responsible for palsy. Genius isn't easy way to compare and buy life insurance. This is the so damn busy hidden in London. Did I send a message to king salon? We ought to few, yes, center. I'm sending a message to someone. He enough the out of the of the in. So the continent. What do you think happened to him? Oh, my God. What I think cub into him. I don't think we will never hear from him again, whether he's back Simpson Sodhi or he has been killed at that council. And it is very, very scary. Ghannam almost didn't personally know Jamal Hushovd, but he knew his work a, you know who, from his articles, which I do respect and duty them. And I also did criticize him in photo work can with the government for this too many years and only figure now a later date that they are evil, not just impious himself. All of them. Donham is less of a journalist more of a dissident, a thorn in Saudi Arabia side? No, I it's not them speech. Basically, the real family treats everyone likes life. We cut the Lockton eating. You can't sit us your own opinion you what your back end, your careful of what you're saying because making any mistake or saying that think about the government audits could Saizen the Royal family, you'll end up in jail, so you live and feed all the time since he left Saudi Arabia and moved to London in two thousand and three. He's amassed hundreds of thousands of followers on social media where he lambasts the Saudi government for a living. I have YouTube channel. Two of them has been taken down by the Saudis an my YouTube channel right now the last one which I created into those fifteen still upon runnin, which I'm grateful for it. Good. Then f. c.. Mafia, tony. Eighteen. I'll sit the Gaylord who the Muslim. Joan at this odious this threat my YouTube channel for no reason from time to time. So it's ongoing wall, you know, side but will. And yeah, I'm using my Twitter account which is going well, and I have no issue with Twitter. What do you post on your YouTube channel? What do you do online? I could them. I make joke of them. AM free. And I say what I believe, what kind of jokes give me like an NBA joke m. b. s. joke I called him Deuba Shera which means I don't know how to translate it to inferior. But it's like fat Bill or something or beer out of control or something like that. It's a fat joke. Yeah. So, yeah, this nickname that gave him Deuba Bedeir has been worldwide rise. Now, if in the economist has written about it and everybody in Saudi news know him by his nickname, so we don't think he likes you. I don't think so. I don't think he likes anyone who seeks democracy or freedom or who wants to be free to say what they think just me and I think he's going outraged because he got support or he thinks he's getting support, limited support from President Trump. I think he's trying to silence me and others. And if he's willing to do that with Jamal Kajii. A didn't think he won't do it with me if he has the paternity to. So do you ever feel scared that they're hacking you that they're trying to quite you? Of course, you feel scared. They have attacked me last fifty minutes of August him in London in daylight by two who we presume the Saudi agents. What did they do to you? The the bunch me on the face and shouting can give Salman bin. Been Solomon's named. They're saying, how am I to talk about them more to this is them? And the case is with the k. police writer now and their photos, and there are feed your of that. Ghannam you've been attacked, you've been hacked. Jamal is probably been murdered. Are you going to stop posting online, sit a will continue and. If he is going to kill me, this will the whole world how evil he is. And I will definitely take extra measures to be very careful, but I will not be stopped. I would continue doing what I believe. It's that I think to do. Do you still have family back home in Saudi Arabia? You said I do have my family about since tachometer. I haven't had anything from any one of my family. Are you scared for your family? If they can disappear journalist, maybe even kill him, what would they do to a regular person who doesn't have access to American media or international media up suitably severely last year, I called for a demonstration in Saudi Arabia, and the government has sinned a team to my parents house, and they're caught them in feed you, the them of the agree with me or. Not the pressure them to disobey me in front of a camera. So if the government is willing to go that far and I haven't had anything confront my family since that camin thirty first of August, and it is very, very scary. But he's very scary. So do you use us embassies consulate to people to commit to crimes? And I'm hundred percent. There are many many. So with this is low profile has been lured to Assadi embassy around the world and being kidnapped unto, we never heard of them because they have no voice on the known. You can find Ghanem almost veers show on YouTube. It's called the Ghanem show and he's on Twitter at Ghanem almost. That's g. h. a. and m. l. m. a. s. a. r. r. thanks to Alexia Underwood at vox. She's an editor on all things foreign and national security. This is today explained. Okay. So from start to sale as a new podcast from eater, it's hosted by two founders of two startups that relate to food. I spoke to ice cream on Tuesday. Now I'm gonna try and get a hold of bread. Hi Han. Hi, Aaron, can I call you bread? We don't make bread though. I know fairly guys make cookies. We make cookies and cake gone. Then muffins and cookie pies and all that. But I read about of unle. It's like a bakery and I was like, oh, like bread that I called your co host on the podcast there start to sail and I was like, hey, I got a call your friend, the bread half, and she was called the bread half that she was like by the way, the bread half, it's like more like cookies and stuff, but I was already on this bread tear and now I feel like we should clarify that of unle does not make bread, did not make bread, but you Erin, the founder of and lead. Do now make a podcast. What's your favorite part of doing that? My favorite part of the show so far is the end of each episode. Enemy episode, we asked entrepreneur, what a skill is that really help them launched their company to next phase or that they really had to learn to be good leaders? And can they break it down for the audience and every single person has a different answer. And each of those answers is amazing Jane. We're one from Dermot Logica. Her skill was how to empathize fire, someone, Kate and Penelope from which see their skill with how to fail and how to fail fast. So you're not focusing on things. You're bad at what's your skill Erin. Confrontation. Ooh, that sounds sexy. I guess we hear Boorda on from start to sail wherever you find your podcasts. Yep. Along with a whole slew of amazing people.

Saudi Arabia Saudi government Saudi consulate Saudi Royal family Saudi Royal court NBS prince Mohammad bin Salman Saudi Crown Washington Post United States London YouTube murder Alexia Underwood President Trump Jamal Twitter NBA Mohammed Osama bin Laden
Ep. 237 - The Devil In The Details

The Michael Knowles Show

46:26 min | 2 years ago

Ep. 237 - The Devil In The Details

"A Saudi journalist end former intelligence operative turned dissident, goes missing at the Saudi embassy in Turkey with reports that a Saudi death-squad chopped him up while still alive. And for some reason, I have been assured by the mainstream media. This is all Donald Trump's fault. We will analyze the devil in the details how this is being totally misreported and what the US response should be. Then the metoo movement, boomerang swings back and clobber Democrats on the head. Alexandria Kazuo Cortez like totally a, you know, reveals why millennials don't understand anything. Kleenex says, women are just as disgusting as men. And Thomas Jefferson gets accused of a sex scandal on this day in history. I'm Michael Knowles and this is the Michael Knowles show. So much to get to today. This story about the Saudi journalist intelligence operative, former politico, Islamist, whatever the the story about him being disappeared in probably killed at the Saudi embassy in Turkey is one of the great examples of fake news in the mainstream media and how it's used by politicians. We'll get to all of that in a second. I let's make a little bit of money, Honey. 'cause you know the future's so bright right now the economy's going. So everything is so good the future, so bright, you gotta buy shades and that's why you need blinds dot com. Window treatments is one of those Solis terms for something necessary, but absolutely boring, your blinds and you don't think about them until you move or until they break or they whatever, when they're right, everything in your home looks better when they're wrong, everything in your home looks cheap. Don't cheap out taking the time to pick out blinds and by blinds. It sounds expensive. It sounds far too adult, you know, it's I don't. 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So would blind cellular shades, roller shades and more what is it blinds dot? Com promo code Michael j. l. rules and restrictions apply because they played everything in this life. Okay. Let's get to this. Saudi journalist, dissident type guy, Jamal Khashoggi what do we know? He's a Saudi guy. He worked for the Washington Post. He lives in the United States briefly, but he had worked previously with the Saudi Royal family, and he walks into the Saudi embassy in Turkey. He doesn't walk out. We also know that I think fifteen members of the Saudi government arrived in Turkey that day they, they left pretty quickly and there are claims that he was killed in the Saudi embassy and chopped up well, still alive. Doesn't sound great the way this is being spun by the mainstream media. First of all is that this is somehow Trump's fault. The Trump needs to do something about this Trump needs to get rid of our agreements with Turkey with regard to selling weapons hundred billion dollar arms deals, whatever as Saudi Arabia rather. So this is how it's being spun. He and the guy Jamal Khashoggi he's being spun as a lead. Left wing progressive liberal pro democracy, reformer guy against the Saudi Royal family, which is not willing to reform and is oppressive. The real truth is far more complicated than that. The first question that you have to ask yourself when you hear about this story is why am I supposed to care? Why am I supposed to care that the Saudi government took out this guy that took out this former. He formerly worked with them. I guess Jamal Khashoggi was aligned with other with another faction of the Saudi Royal family than the one that is currently in power under Mohammed bin Salman. So you know a guy whose political fortunes of changed has been killed by the Saudi government. Why am I supposed to care about that? I don't mean to sound callous or cold ordered or anything like that, but we know that the Saudi Royal family commits heinous acts all the time and has for decades and decades. We know that it's one of the most repressive regimes on earth. Why. Why am I supposed to care about this one? They do it all of the time. Mike question for those who would call us callous for asking that question is why don't you care about the the beheadings that are happening all the time, the clamping down on political dissidents. Why don't you care about that? Why is it this one in particular, I, I'm not. I don't really understand what new information is being conveyed by this killing of a dissident guy. Is there anything new if we had our arms deal with Saudi Arabia, two weeks ago, why would we change it now? It's not like the government has changed its stripes. If anything, the government is getting a little less repressive. They're liberalizing certain laws. They're letting women drive for the first time in a very long time. They're opening up certain movie theaters little little freedoms are being opened up even economic freedoms. They're now starting to do a little bit of business with Israel, and that is the biggest issue that's actually where this gets down to, and it shows that Jamal Khashoggi being put up by the left wing as this messianic figure. Or you know this, this progressive secular westerner is of was far from them. So what does this actually proved to me proves to me that if you pal around with jihadists, things aren't going to turn out very well, that's that's the only conclusion I can draw from this because we know that Jamal Kagi palled around with his Llamas for decades. And by the way, now the left now that we're pointing this out that this guy palled around with Islamist radicals even with some bin Laden. Now that people are pointing this out. The left is saying, this is a smear campaign by right wingers trying to defend President Trump's relationship with the Saudis. Vernon Trump didn't develop the US relationship with the Saudi Royal family. We've had it for a very long time, but to call a smear merchants, it's it's not the right wing, which is coming up with these connections between Khashoggi and terrorists in HAMAs terrorists in Asia terrorists like Osama bin Laden of this has been known for decades and actually it's left wing papers to horizon in Israel is reporting on all of this, so don't really buy any of that. What do we know? We know that Yamaoka shaggy was in his Llamas, he's he was a lifelong member of the Muslim Brotherhood. He favored radical aspects of the Muslim Brotherhood. We know that he was a regime insider as well. So not. It's not just as simple as journalist, it's a guy who worked with the Saudi Royal family. For a long time and we know that he was working on their behalf in the nineteen eighties when he was palling around with some bin Laden by all reports when he was hanging out with Osama bin Laden, he was trying to end the feud between the Saudi Royal family and Osama bin Laden, but he was hanging out with him for a long time. There was a photo that was uncovered. I believe by Haaretz, which shows Jamal Khashoggi holding an RPG a rocket-propelled grenade with terrorists in Afghanistan. In the nineteen eighties, we know that Jamal Khashoggi defended supporters of suicide bombings that he vigorously defended HAMAs the brutal terrorist group in the Middle East. We know that that according to Al Arabiya, he tried to get some bin Laden to be a little less violent, but went Osama bin Laden died Jamal. Khashoggi, apparently cried and talked about how he wept when Osama bin Laden died. Now, he after September eleventh, he turned away from Osama bin Laden. He said, that's no good. Okay, fine. But he, he wept when bin Laden died. So again, a Turkey says that it has the audio recording of Jamal Khashoggi being killed by the Saudis. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. I have very little reason to believe. But in this case, I very little reason to disbelieve Turkey because the Saudis commit heinous crimes all the time. There are now also reports that Saudi Arabia is looking for a replacement for the crown prince Mohammad bin Salman. He's the, he's the new guy in town. He's been hailed in the west as a reformer. He actually has instituted certain reforms pretty major reforms in so much as doing a little bit of business with Israel. You know, obviously the kind of headline grabbing ones letting women drive, but he does seem to have an eye toward the future. It would be very, very bad idea for Saudi Arabia to replace this guy right now. I really think it's a bad idea. The arguments against the crown prince of Saudi Arabia or that he's not in favor of democracy in the kingdom. Great. Why on earth would we be in favor of democracy in Saudi Arabia, how his have our experiments in democracy panned out in other repressive Islam countries? Not very well. Why? Why are we supposed to conclude now that a democratic Saudi Arabia would be any more peaceful for the kingdom for the region and for the United States than a democratic Saudi Arabia. I don't really buy that and you know, some of the so-called pro-democracy agitators in Saudi Arabia have pretty radical Islamist ties even more radical than the Saudi Royal family. Okay. What else? The other thing is be dinged for is that he's developed a pretty good relationship with Donald Trump. Again, this is nothing new. This Saudi Royal family has had a relationship with the US for a long time, but because everyone hates Trump on the left, they're trying to ding him for that as well. I highly recommend you read a piece today co written by Michael Duran, Michael arenas, an excellent foreign policy analyst. It's in the New York Post. I think presents a fair take on who Khashoggi is who Mohammed bin Salman is and what the relationship is between those families. You know, to call him a dissident journalist who fled to America that that presents one picture, but it's not like he fled to America ten or fifteen or twenty years ago. It's not like he fled to America after he was palling around with bin Laden. And he suddenly had an awakening. He fled to America after the political tides turned in Saudi Arabia, and there's a new crown prince in town. Okay. Here are some other things by the way that Jamaica shaggy wrote about the painted. Different victory said, quote, Saudi Arabia now believes its interests lie in facing Islam, assists who were supposed to be. It's a Stoorikhel allies. I often hear Saudi Arabian intellectuals on television attacking political Islam. And my answer to them is that Saudi Arabia is the mother and father of political Islam. So you've got this guy Khashoggi who was killed. Extolling the virtues of Islamism of political Islam. The vicious ideology that we've been fighting now explicitly for fifteen years, and yet the left in America is expecting us to render garments in Nash our teeth because defender of political Islam has been killed by his government. I'm not saying that I'm happy about the killing. I'm not saying I'm devastated about the killing. I'm saying, when you pal around with jihadists and radical Islamists bad things going to happen to you. He he goes on, he's he criticizes the the leftist project of opposing political Islam. And he says that Saudi Arabia has lost its moral compass. It lost its moral compass, not because it's embraced political Islam be, but because it opposes political Islam, this is not something that's being presented in the mainstream media. We also know that Khashoggi supports air John in Turkey, strong pro Islamic leader of Turkey. And he was hoping for an alliance between the Saud's and Turkey. I don't see how this benefits the United States. I don't see how it's in the interest of the United States. Part of the reason why Khashoggi is getting this red carpet treatment, and this killing is being presented is totally unprecedented. Horrifying shocking as if we didn't know that this was this sort of thing was going on for decades ported. The reason is that when he got to the United States, he allied with certain former Obama administration officials. He allied with the political left in the United States from his post at the Washington Post which is had for a little while. And so part of that was hiding his, I think, true political beliefs and his demonstrable political activity for decades, all of all of which I don't want this to be misconstrued. I don't want it to seem as though I'm defending the Saudi Royal family, a killing some dissident. I don't share a religion with Saudi. Royal family. I don't share views of government with the Saudi Royal family. I don't share views of political philosophy with Saudi Royal family. I don't care. I, you know, I have no intention of ever going to Saudi Arabia. What I'm saying is this is nothing new and the people who are opposing the Saudi regime can be pretty awful people to. They may actually even be worse. You know, one of the arguments for defending the Saudi Royal family for maintaining alliance with the Saudi Royal family is that the devil we know is better than the devil. We don't. Throughout our encounters in the Middle East. This is very often proven to be the case. Just take the case of Mubarak in Egypt. Do we really believe that Egypt is better off now that the United States relationship is better off? Now after we hoisted are longtime ally, Hosni Mubarak years ago, do we really believe, how is that better off? How are we better off if pro democracy forces enter some of these oppressive countries in then through democracy through voting institute, even more oppressive, even more too radical, even more anti-western regimes? How is that in our interest? How is that an anybody's interest? If one of Khashoggi's chief criticisms of the Saudi Royal family is that they're too pro Israel and they're not supporting HAMAs enough or something like that. Why on earth should we be defending that? Why should we be horrified? Why should we be clutching or pearls? I don't get it at all. I think the real. It's getting so much plays because there's a midterm election coming up. They got nothing. The Democrats have nothing to attack Trump for. So they're just grasping at straws. They're trying to grasp anything at all that they can use to cuddle him with. But people need to take a real view. We talked yesterday about how when people get angry, they go mad. And when they go mad, they get stupid. They start behaving and really stupid political ways. This is a good example of that. You know, we people don't know anything myself included. People do not know anything relatively about the political machinations of Saudi Arabia Turkey, and Iran people don't know the players involved. They don't know how deep this runs and everybody wants to pretend that they're an expert on this issue and Saudis, bad and Mohammed bin Salman bad and Jamal Khashoggi good. The reality is so much more complex and when we when we just by a shallow narrative of this, we can get ourselves into a lot of trouble both as a matter of foreign policy and for domestic politics don't buy into it is it? Is it bad? When a government kills its people without due process? Yes, governments do it all the time. It's happened for decades. Certainly. It's happened in Saudi Arabia. There is no new information here. Now how can we react to this? The killing was extrajudicial. What can we do? We can hopefully leverage this killing to get some concessions out of Saudi Arabia. You know, there was the famous Saudi Arabian textbook controversy which is emblematic of the education of young Saudis into anti-western anti-american anti-israeli, obviously, ideologies, perhaps we can leverage this situation to gain some concessions from them to turn the stance of the regime, a little less anti-western, turn it a little bit more in the direction that we wanted to go in the interest of the United States. I'm all for that. I'm all for leveraging this. I have no sentimentality, no saccharin love of the Saudi Royal family, but let's be clear. I the people who were opposing the Saudi Royal family or pretty awful themselves. And in many ways they oppose our interests in a far greater way. And fortunately, we have the Saudis there to oppose the influence of Iran in the Middle East. Just keep all those things in mind. And most importantly is your, what are we now eighteen days out or something from the. From the mid term elections, don't don't let the Democrats take this bizarre random incident that happened in Turkey and try to use it for political leverage, coming eighteen days out. It is. It's a cynical political ploy by the left and it could have consequences both politically and for for our foreign policy don't buy it ju- you know, the people, I think who are screaming about the Saudi Royal family, the most that they've ever even googled the guy who was killed. I don't know that you've got a view these things clearly, but we don't have a lot of clear thinking anymore. We'll get to that in a second with with Alexandria. Kazuo Cortez I do want to turn back to the midterms because this me too thing has totally boomeranged back and clobbered Democrats. You know, this is another example of why you shouldn't let your passions run away with you in politics. You should get all of the information I because this me too thing is cluttering them. There is now an ad out supporting the GOP. Richmond French hill. Now he says, he wasn't behind this ad. He's condemned the anti says, it's outrageous, but the whole premise of this metoo movement and specifically the cavenaugh part of it is that all women must be believed regardless of any evidence they have all women. All claims of sexual misconduct should be believed. All men accused of sexual misconduct should be presumed guilty until proven innocent, and this has huge effects on and huge relation to American history. Specifically American racial history. Don't forget the book to kill a Mockingbird is about a false rape allegation of a white woman against a black guy, and she made it up and it was a hoax. And it was a had serious Rachel consequences. So there's this great ad now supporting GOP congressman French. He'll just take a listen. You think about what's happening in Washington, I'll congressman French healed and the reply. No, that this dangerous to change the presumption of innocence to a presumption of guilt, especially for black men. If the Democrats can do that to a white Justice of the supreme court with no evidence, no corroboration and all of our witnesses including her best friend say it didn't happen. What will happen to our husbands out fathers, our sons when a white girl lies on them go. Why Democrats will be lynching black folk. Again, turn out always told my son don't be messing around with that. If you get called, she will cry rape. I'm voting to keep congressman Fench here and the Republicans because we have to protect Amin in volleys. We can't afford to let white Democrats take us back to bad old days of race, verdicts life sentences, and legends wanna white girl screens rate paid for by black Americans for the president's agenda, not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. That is to real that I think that has been disqualified from the public airwaves for being too real. They I'm sorry, you're not allowed to have political ads that are that real. You're not allowed of political ads that go back one to to really the heart of this matter. But also that refer to Democrats long history of racial violence and demagoguery. So really good ad. Obviously it is outrageous so the congressman has had to distance himself from it, but it makes a great point. You know this, this regime, this political movement of metoo is lawless. It's anti law and it's lawless. It says that any allegation you can destroy man's career with just a few words, no corroboration no evidence in the case of Christine. Ford. Not only did she have no evidence. She kept changing her story and all the people. She names there including her lifelong female friend said it didn't happen. They never met the people. There just didn't happen. And yet. How many people in America still believe Christine. Ford story or one of Christine, Ford stories. I don't know. She kept changing them. How many believe that Brett Cavanaugh is not only groper or was it groper when he was sixteen but wasn't attempted rapist and even almost a murderer because the story, you know, kept changing how many people believe that it's very. Really long lasting effects, and you see all around and there is a racial component to it. Don't just believe the ad for French hill, go back to to kill a Mockingbird. Go back to nineteenth and early twentieth century American history. This is not a, this is not a joke and because all nature is but art unknown to the because everything every time the Democrats try to make a point reality swings back and punches them in the face. This has actually happened the lynching of Emmett till came about because Emmett till allegedly fourteen year old black boy allegedly hit on a white woman and they Lynch mob came and killed him for it for that allegation. And now you've got the left, denying that this would ever happen is not a chance. It would never happen in Brooklyn in New York. A nine year old. Black boy was accused by a white woman of grabbing her a dairy air in a supermarket. The women's clearly unhinged. She ended up calling the police and say, he assaulted me. He grabbed me. He grabbed my dairy air at a nine year old boy, and then they looked at security camera footage never happened. They can. They can prove that it didn't happen. She's a nut. She called the cops on the kid. It's not like she just said, oh, you don't do that. Or they said it was mother, don't do that. She called the police on him and then it turns out it was fake, didn't happen. It was a hoax. So one, I just want to point out for the believable women thing. There are hoaxes Jackie Coakley to wanna Brawley countless sexual assault hoaxes in recent years. The reason that you can't believe all women just because they're women is that it is unfair to actual victims of sexual assault. It actually doesn't take sexual assault seriously when you believe crazy people, and we should take sexual assault seriously because it is a heinous crime. So I love this kid. He the, the woman, the crazy woman who accused him of business name. Teresa Klein the nine year old kid is Jeremiah Harvey, and you know, she's trying to ruin his life at this Brooklyn deli. ABC news interviewed the nine year old kid and said, do you forgive this woman? I love his answer. How woman feel about her own? Forget this woman at all. I think she was crazy. I think she had something going on with her. I think she had a special ill will end. She needs help. She really needs help for. No, you tell them, you tell him Jeremiah now, you know, I think he should forgive in time, but this is a perfectly appropriate answer in the moment. Yes, she has a special kind of ill. She is crazy. She needs help. She needs to get help played again, tell him against your because all the Democrats need to hear this. You're talking to all of them. Give this woman and how do you feel about her? I forget this woman at all. I think she was crazy. I think she had something going older. I actually she had a special ill will and she needs help, and she really needs help for sheep doesn't need help, and thank goodness that there was security camera footage because look, it's funny. The kid is stating this perfectly, really spelling out what the left needs to hear, but thank goodness. There was security camera footage because if not, who knows what would have happened at the very least his mother would've yelled at him and spanked him and sent him to time out. I don't know. He would have gotten in trouble for this and this is a particular incident that also represents a lot of other incidents. You got kids getting expelled from college because of uncorroborated unverified allegations not taken to the police, not take into the Justice system, but tallied up by kangaroo courts of professors who have no business investigating and prosecuting. Serious crimes. You've got supreme court justices having their characters assassinated because of unverified claims. It goes all the way up. It's, you know, this nine year old kid in a Brooklyn deli is a great example and symbol of of the dangers of what could happen if we take away due process and we take away the presumption of innocence and metoo is striking back. It is striking back against Democrats, specifically Democrats on the judiciary committee. This is just too delicious. Let me take a little sip of my tumbler. I before I get to this wonderful. Just as good as I remember them Senator Sherrod Brown democrat from Ohio, running against Jim, Ryan, achie-. Jim rachi and his campaign is now coming out with an allegation that shared Brown member of the Senate Judiciary committee, sexually harassed and assaulted a woman in the eighties. I love this. I love that. It's thirty years later. I loved it. Allegedly happened in the nineteen eighties. I loved it. It's a political opponent, bringing it against a democrat, and I love that. It's a democrat on the judiciary committee, very rarely do we see perfect examples of karma very rarely do these things hit exactly the way that they came out and that's, that's what's happening here. So according to the, we're Naci campaign quote, this encounter of this is actually according to the accuser purported victim. She said this account happened after Sherrod Brown's divorce. She described an unexpected uninvited unwanted and sudden advance roughly pushing her up against a wall. It did not stop. After she expressed dismay and very firmly pulled away explaining that was not her style more while she was there. Although she was able to diffuse the situation, she got out it did shake her up and she told friends about it as soon as she got home, this allegation is about a thousand times more credible than anything Christine for it has said regarding Brad Kavanagh and and this doesn't sound credible ITO. I'll be perfectly Frank. This accusation against a shared Brown unless they can bring some more evidence isn't terribly credible, eat is a thousand ten thousand times more credible than anything. Christine. Ford said. It's almost a one to one. It happened in the nineteen eighties. Okay, except that shared Brown. In this case was an adult who had been divorced in the case of Christine. Ford's accusation Cavanaugh was seventeen years old, then shared Brown. According to this accusation, pushed her up against a wall Pender used his body. It was. Unwanted and it was rough. That was the same allegation against a teenage breath Cavill except in this case, shared brand was apparently stone cold sober. And in the case of the Ford allegation, cavenaugh was drunk. Maybe if he was even in the room, then she expressed dismay. Ford expressed dismay, both of them expressed dismay, and in both cases they didn't stop. And then in both cases, the women just got out of there, they were able to get out of there fortunately and, but it still shook them up. The difference here is that the woman accusing democrat Sherrod Brown of this kind of conduct apparently told her friends immediately after it happened and the and the friends corroborating in the case of Christine forward. She didn't tell anybody for thirty thirty years over thirty years. And then her story changed a million times. And then the friends that she said could corroborate it didn't corroborate and actually refute it. This is so much hope. Also, both of them wanted to remain anonymous. The woman accusing Sherrod Brown is anonymous, the woman Christine Ford wanted to remain non. Animus until the Democrats leaked the story and what is shared brand? How has he responded to this? This dirty rotten hypocrite. He said, this is character assassination. You're damn right? It's character assassination. Absolutely. And I hope you enjoyed every second of that character assassination. I mentioned this during the fourth thing I said, if we actually want to stop this sort of baseless smearing the these things that discourage good people from going into politics that make mockery of our system of Justice that make a mockery of the presumption of innocence. Democrats have to feel it too, and one of the perfect Democrats to feel it is feeling it now share it Brown democrat, enjoy your characterists nation. Enjoy this perfect. One to one can't wait to see how Democrats respond. You probably haven't heard about this story because nobody is covering it. Surprise surprise. Well, maybe it'll be covered in Ohio before the midterm elections. I also have to thank Alexandria Casio Cortes as always occasional cortex as Steve ward says, because she. She has perfectly exemplified why millennials don't understand anything at all. She was doing an interview with Jimmy Kimmel here is just a quick clip of of the poetic diction of Alexandria. Oh, Casio. Cortez do beat a ten time incumbent guy who just assumed that he was going to win and you came out of nowhere. You're working as a bartender and decided that it would be a good idea to run for office. It's really one of the most remarkable stories I've ever heard east stop and think about this from time to time ago, believe this is happening. Yeah, people just lizard like wait or it's like back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. People be like, is this real? No, it's Jackson the party. Yeah. Yeah, they do. And it's yeah. Yeah, hometown. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know if it's because we're from the Bronx. It's like exotic to us and she was like, yeah, no, my husband is a is a huge fan of yours, motion, activated, Chachi behind me. That's like singing Jingle Bells chilly. No, like like, yeah, yeah. Like the thing you know like about that clip like is it shows like how clear speech is reflective of clear thinking like, you know, and that's why you know like it's so totally hard. You know, you know, do you know? Do you know? Yeah. Yeah, man. I know this is how millennials talk. We all do it even I do it. Sometimes I'll occasionally slip in a like or a yeah or a, you know, sometimes I'll do it for comic effect. Sometimes I'll do it just in my speech, and this is a very bad thing. People should. Refrain from doing this too, right well is to think clearly to speak well is to think clearly when you don't speak well when you don't write, well, you're not thinking clearly very often. It's reflective of how you're thinking. You must avoid all of these likes. And and yes, the other thing that's reflective of is the relativist presumptions and premises and culture that millennials are in, you know, man, like, yeah, millennials, no longer say, I think they say, what did they say? They say, I feel like they don't say, I think they don't say, I believe they say, I feel like, well, I just feel like blah, blah, blah, you know, I feel like blah, blah, blah. They won't say that was a delicious dinner. They'll say that dinner was like really good. You know it was like really good. It wasn't really good. I'm saying it was like really good. The reason that people do this subconsciously unconsciously or consciously is because they want to distance themselves from making a claim because there's no such thing as. The truth to these people. There is only your truth and my truth and like, who am I man to say what like the truth is, you know? So it's always like it's always a similarly. It's always similar to this thing, but not quite that thing. I'm I'm never making a claim. I'm always explaining my feelings about the claim. I feel like it's a really bad way of thinking and the way that you speak is going to dictate how you think, because the words or the stuff of our consciousness, the words are the medium of how we think. So if you use debase language views of vague language, if you use squishy language, you're gonna think innovate debased, and squishy way do not be like occasional cortex, be like, like, you know, like man a serious thinker in use precise language and use hard language and use blunt language, do it as best you can. The culture stacked against you and trying to get you not to do that. Try to do that on your own. Now I've got so much more advice and so many more paroles of wisdom. On these things and a lot more to cover on this day in history on how Kleenex is finally, capitulating feminists and admitting that feminists or disgusting is any man and this caravan at the border. All of that will just happen daily wire dot com. If you're on Facebook and YouTube go over, come on, man. Go over there. Like, come on, you know? Yeah, it'll be really fun. Yeah, you'll get me. You'll get the intrigue at the Ben Shapiro show you get to ask questions in the mail bag. You'd ask questions in the conversation. None of that matters. You'll also get to see us a politic on your stream or appearance of politic on over the weekend. But you'll get this and this these leftist tears. They're like, oh, they're like. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. They are like so so good. And they're really important. This is the Sherrod Brown vintage. This is the democrat Senate Judiciary me to boomerang vintage and it's a young vintage. It's only going to mature. It's only going to get better, go to daily wire dot com. We'll be right back. There's a French expression Poussin Pugh, Salem shows the more things change. The more things stay the same in the American idiom. Obviously, some things get worse. Language gets worse. Oh, Casio gets worse. The metoo movement descends into these awful things, but so many things stay the same. I just came across this clip from nineteen ninety one. It's an appearance of Robin Williams, the late great Robin Williams on the Johnny Carson show, and he's describing the confirmation hearings of Justice. Clarence Thomas one of the great justices on the court, a brilliant guy. Here's how Robin Williams describes him. I don't. It's always I've been watching the supreme court hearings. It's a little amazing Mr. Thomas, your opinion of Roe versus Wade. I prefer to float. Okay. Come on. They've really hit all sorts of witnesses. He was that good. They can't get real answers out of him. I mean, how they get people that people have no legal opinions, no written opinions and basically four weeks ago, I was driving trucks. Now I'm sitting on the highest court in the land. Thanks George Bush home study course. You be. Supreme court. You get it. He was an idiot, wouldn't an idiot. He doesn't Clarence Thomas. He doesn't even have any opinions. He doesn't. He he's a judge is a judge and he has a lot of written opinions and he ran a lot of important offices, but anyone to yell law school by the way, top law school in the country. But he's like an idiot. You know, he's like, you know, like like he's an idiot and this was the attack. They always do this and one Clarence Thomas was an idiot. He was a sexual assailant. He was he was a black man in a high tech lynching being accused without any evidence of sexual assault and oversexed black man was the image that was being painted by the left and they would go back and forth on this. You heard what even Robin Williams alludes to it there. Oh, he was a good boy. Oh, he was a good boy making fun of the character witnesses that came up for for Clarence Thomas the same exact thing. Making the same jokes twenty seven years ago for the same reason and Robin Williams even admits the same reason Roe versus Wade. Why did he bring up Rovers his wait? Was it to make a fairly lame joke gay? It it Roe versus Wade. I prefer to float. They weren't all winners. You know, sometimes Robin Williams is very funny. Sometimes he had some clunkers that was one of them, but it's Roe versus Wade. That's what it was all about. It's what it's going to be about. We like to flatter ourselves, especially on the left. They like to flatter themselves and say, this is the moment. This is the crisis. It's always a crisis. The Saudi Arabia thing, it's always a crisis, the new crisis. That's the view of politics on the left. That's the view of politics from rationalists. There's always a new crisis that we have to fix. That's not the view of politics from conservatives and it shouldn't be. It's not a crisis, Saudi Arabian government behaving like the Saudi Arabian government is not a crisis. If that's a crisis, you need to do a little more homework. You've got you gotta calm down. A Justice who interprets the constitution as it was to be interpreted at the time of ratification. That's not a crisis. That's the opposite of a crisis, but they'll always try to make it up that way. They're going to do it for the next judge that we put up to the supreme court. They're going to do it for the federal judges as well. It's not a crisis calm down. Don't be fooled by that kind of language. Oh, Clarence Thomas. He's an idiot because Robin Williams said some comedian on late night said so. Oh, cavenaugh. He's impassioned. He's this. He's a bet. No, he's a frat boy. He doesn't know anything. No, don't buy it. It's the, it's so tired, it's they do it all the time and they whip people up into a frenzy. There's no friends who to be had there. The consider the new crisis that they've made. The feminists have made out of Kleenex. If you've heard this story. Kleenex has had various sizes of tissues and for the last sixty two years, they've had a man sized tissue by, say, man sized tissue. What does that bring to mind, bigger, stronger, capable of dealing with grocer things more disgusting things. Yes, that's what the man's eyes tissue was because men are bigger and they're stronger, and they're more disgusting. That's a biological fact feminists have taken issue at this was one of the most popular products at Kleenex, three point, four million customers per year according to Kleenex, but it's very bad. It's very bad, you know, because it's gendered or we who, or you to say that men are bigger than women, they are obviously, but who are you to say it? Who are you to say that men are stronger than women? They are obviously, but who were you to say? It's a denial of reality and Kleenex has capitulated to it. And it's ironic. Because what feminists want that the implicit claim feminist who take issue with man-size tissues is that women are just as big and gross and disgusting as men and went when it comes to feminist. I can't disagree on the whole on average. I can't disagree. So congratulations feminists. You've you've gotten rid of the man tissues. You've proven that some women are just as disgusting as men and you've you've fought reality on the latest battlefront. Congratulations. The there is a caravan coming up to the border. There were four thousand illegal aliens who promised to crossover it. This is sponsored in large part by pueblos in frontier us people without borders and left-wing group that gets funding from George Soros Poussin JP Lucille meme shoes. Of course, these things are constantly happening. This is a bigger one though. This has happened before their four thousand people. Now, on average, the United States border patrol arrests thousand people a day can be as high as two thousand. Thousand people can be a little shorter. There were actually sixteen thousand six hundred and fifty eight family members. People who are coming here in families who were arrested in September by border patrol. Those are just the ones that they caught. A lot of people pouring over this border President Trump responded. He said, we're going to cut off aid to El Salvador. We're going to cut off eight hundred. We're going to we're going to ding Mexico. This was a perfect response, and I've talked to friends who are real Trump critics real never-trumpers, whatever. And they agree. This is the perfect response. He actually could go a little farther with this because these these guys should never make it to the US border. They should be stopped at the Mexico southern border, and absolutely we should threaten to cut off aid with all these guys. We should also threaten to tax or cut off remittances from the United States from Mexican nationals who make it into the United States and send money back into Mexico through Western Union through telegram services through money order services. We should threaten to cut that off or. It heavily if President Trump threatened a fifty percent tax on those remittances, you would see Mexico do something about this and he should do it. He should be pitiless about it. It is such an affront to our sovereignty to our Democratic Republic to the ability of Americans to govern themselves. When you have people pouring over the board invading the country, and you can't do anything about it, you we, the people who govern ourselves who were supposed to govern ourselves, can't do anything about it. It's an affront and it's a huge winner for Republicans it. I think something like the majority of Democrats, depending on which Paul, you look at the majority of Democrats oppose this and are horrified by so many aspects of illegal immigration even down to the so-called dreamers. You know, these, these kids who didn't choose to be here even down to that level, the majority of Democrats oppose making amnesty for them a top priority. This is a slam dunk for Republicans. They should turn it up to eleven, especially as the midterms approach Trump should send the national guard down there. He should cut off. You should tax remittances. He should threatened. To cut off aid do it. All it could do is help Republicans and it's the right thing to do, and it would be good for the country on this day in history in seventeen ninety. Six. Just to remind you that blue such Priscilla ma'am shows the more things change. The more things stay. The same are third president. Thomas Jefferson was accused of a sexual affair sexual misconduct the the original me to the nineteenth century metoo movement. There is an editorial that that came up in a number of newspapers. A series of aditorial written by somebody named Fosi Seon p. h. o. c. I n this was when Thomas Jefferson was running against John Adams to become the second president of the United States, and it accused Thomas Jefferson of sleeping with his slave and having children with his slave of concubine slave, Sally Hemmings, which it seems from the historical record is true. Who's foe Seon none other than Alexander Hamilton? Is it any wonder that. People wanted to kill that guy that they wanted to challenge them to duels and shoot them. No wonder at all. He wrote, I think twenty five essays against Jefferson under this pen name Fosi on and it was a, it was a sex affair allegation. So I do wanna point out now that we're responding against the me too movement. This is long happened. There's always been sexual dirt in politics, y because sex is a primal major drive four men, especially. And so it's a good way to attack your political opponents when you can. This has happened for a long time that said, when you've got you know the entire national news media supporting these unfounded charges when you've got no evidence for those charges. There was evidence for the charge against Jefferson or a lot of kids look like Thomas Jefferson on that plantation and the and Sally Hemmings is kids would always pop out about nine months after Thomas Jefferson visited, and there weren't any kids that came out of nine months after Jefferson was away from home. So. There was some evidence here. I, I'm not saying that sex scandals are or unfair or they're off the table. Of course. You know, there are going to be on the table as long as politics exists, but there or degrees you. There's some devil in the details. I know that ideologues want things to be black and white. They wanna say Saudi Arabia, bad Turkey, good now for some reason or sex, all sex scandals or unfair. All this is off the table. All this. Not quite. You've got to look into the details. You know, all shallows or clear all shall Dr. Johnson pointed this out when when people are talking about religion or philosophy or politics or whatever say, well, that isn't. This isn't clear. Your point of view isn't clear. It's not ideological. I can't write it down in one doctrine on one pamphlet of one book or something right. Shallows are clear. Reality is complex reality is complicated and and also Jefferson was that election did. It was good attack though. He won for years later. So political winds can always change their changing now. We will see how they will change for the midterm elections, but we'll have to get to that next week. Enjoy another kingdom. Another kingdom, Andrew claybin narrative podcasts that I perform all the roles in is now available on audio to everybody non-subscribers and subscriber. So go subscribe, download it. And if you're a subscriber, you know, you get it much earlier. You get it on Mondays. You get to see the whole thing. It's really cool, great artwork. Do that. Enjoy the weekend, maybe. I'll see you politic on. Maybe I won't. In any case, I'll see you Monday. In the meantime. I'm Michael Knowles. This is the Michael Knowles show. The Michael Molson's produced by a Villarreal executive producer, Jeremy, boring, senior producer, Jonathan, hey, our supervising producer Mathis Glover and our technical producer is Austin Stevens edited by Jim Nichol. Audio is mixed by Mike core. Amina hair and makeup is by Jessica over the Michael Knowles show is a daily wire for would publishing production copyright forward publishing twenty eighteen.

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Saudi Arabia's IPO Fail?

The Indicator from Planet Money

09:24 min | 1 year ago

Saudi Arabia's IPO Fail?

"N. P. R. Saudi Arabia's state owned oil company. Saudi Aramco is legendary the company owns and runs Saudi. Arabia's oilfields Aramco is is also known to be an incredibly secretive company. It bankrolls the Saudi Royal Family and it's thousands of Princes Aramco makes up most of Saudi Arabia's entire economy so when Aramco announced that it was going to go public and start selling shares of stock people went crazy exchanges. All over the world. Were doing it out out for the IPO. The New York Stock Exchange exchanges in London China Japan. Everyone wanted to be the exchange that was selling Aramco. Stock Banks were also fighting it out for or a piece of the action. There was just so much money at stake. Rumors the company's value at two trillion dollars. Which would make the biggest company in the world wealthier than Apple Assan even Alibaba and this was set to be the biggest? IPO ever but going public means the public owns a chunk of your company usually usually around twenty percent and that comes with a bunch of regulations and transparency. You have to open your books and subject yourself to all kinds of scrutiny. Saudi Aramco Coke really didn't want to do that and it's been more than a year jumping from exchange to exchange trying to find someone who would bend the rules enough that proved to be difficult and and in fact last week. Saudi Arabia announced that the search was over. It was just going to sell the shares of Aramco itself on its own local Saudi exchange which seems like such a downshift township from the initial like Neg ambitions of the ARAMCO IPO. This is the indicator from planet. Money I'm Stacey Vanek Smith Today on the show the Aramco. IPO what happens. And what does it mean for Saudi Arabia this message comes from. NPR sponsor their state farm. Why do you need state farm renter's insurance because it helps protect stuff landlords? Don't like your furniture that gets drenched by a broken pipe. State farm arm Renter's insurance find an agent or get a quote at State Farm Dot Com. Today on the show we're talking with Samantha Gross. She's a fellow in foreign policy. At the Brookings Institution Samantha. Thank you for talking with us. My pleasure happy to talk to you. Do you remember when you first heard that the Saudi government was going to start selling shares shares of ARAMCO's stock. Absolutely I saw the interview that Mohammed bin Salman did with the Economist. My first thought was literally as your Daddy. Now that you're you're talking about this because this is a really selling Saudis family jewels and I was shocked that they would go so far as to consider this. Well I remember the thing that I was so captivated by was so in an initial public offering companies have to open their books their subject. All these reviews use the ideas your companies now owned by the public. You can raise a lot of money but the other side of that is you're subject to all these regulations and everybody gets to see under the curtain like everybody. Nobody gets to see all the things and so. I was all excited at the prospect of all this information coming out about Aramco but it seems like from the very first time I heard about witnesses expected sort of a normal. IPO things changed a little. Well it's been a real trade off the reason why Mohammed bin Salman wanted to do this. It's because he wanted to sell five percent of Aramco take it public in order to get money for his vision. Twenty thirty plan to revolutionize the Saudi economy and to make it less dependent dependent on oil and so that was a serious goal that he intended to bring in serious money for however the trade off is transparency that there's never been around Saudi Aramco. Hamco this is a difficult thing for them to think about. The rewards are great but also the risks and the challenges of that level of transparency are also great. I mean you know there. There is a real upside to an IPO going public. which is you raise a ton of money? There's a real downside. which is you are exposed as a company in a Lotta ways and it is like it almost seemed like they didn't want the downside including what you just mentioned which is that? They wanted to put five percent of the company public which is like a really tiny mountain normally. It's much higher than telling five percent of the world's largest companies still a ton of money. Yes but then. It doesn't mean five percent transparency in order to sell five percent of the company. You need to do just as much much transparency if you would if you're putting the whole thing up for an IPO. And so. I think they wanted sort of some transparency. But it doesn't work that ah you need complete transparency to to publicly offer any of the company right so in in the very beginning. I mean this was going to be the prettiest girl all at the dance for lack of a better metaphor and so it did seem like one by one. The major exchanges kind of backed away and then Saudi Arabia was talking to some kind of more obscure. The exchange is part of that was because the Saudis didn't want to meet some of the requirements that those exchanges had that they really couldn't bend. I mean those requirements are there to to protect investors and so then the Saudis sort of backed away and started looking at different exchanges at looking at private placements within institutional investors and in different ways to sort of float part of the company. Get money back without this full level of transparency. That was a lot for them. Yeah this was supposed to be the IPO of the century and then became sort of progressively ratcheted down to like more and more modest goals. Well Yeah and I think it ultimately fell apart heart just last weekend actually because they had a herd of bankers. I'm not sure what you call a hurt of bankers a number of bankers murder of crows or something exactly a flock of seagulls heard of bankers. Who was who were there advising them on the IPO in these bankers came in and said if a few place this he'll publicly in western countries? This is what we think it's worth. And they came up with numbers as low as one point one trillion. I'm some up to one point point five trillion but they weren't with the kingdom was looking for and so the kingdom was very frustrated and felt like well you know. Why should we sell this company to Western investors dress for less than we think it's worth? Why don't we place it locally on the Tato of a the Saudi exchange I'm and sell it to local investors and maybe we can get more money for it but even the local bankers wouldn't put a two trillion dollar valuation on Aramco Right? No they did not. They settled at about a one point. Six to one point seven trillion billion dollar value valuation. Why wouldn't they just say yes to two trillion like that? Seems I was shocked to read about that pushback. You know. They didn't feel like they could place it at that level revel in. It's an interesting when you think about what Saudi Aramco is worth. You have to look at a couple of different things. That oil is involved in sort political skirmishes in that part the world. We saw what Iran did recently in attacking the facilities there They demonstrated that those facilities are vulnerable. And that is important to evaluation evaluation of Saudi Aramco. Oh there's no question that they can make money and no question that their oil will continue to be valuable going forward but the question is what price they'll get for that oil so if we take climate change seriously if we see the demand for oil go down on that oils likely to sell at a lower price so they clearly have a proven track record into making money and they have a lot of inexpensive well but the question is how long can they make as much money as they have in the past and so now it seems like Aramco's Ramco in this weird position of going public for a lot less money than it wanted locally Saudi exchange and apparently kind of twisting people's arms to promised to buy the stock. They want to make sure that this public offering is fully subscribed. I've also heard tell of some pressure on sort of V very wealthy people little within the Kingdom to buy stock some of the same people that the kingdom rounded up a couple years ago. And I'm put them in the Ritz Carlton for a little wiles. Shakedown like Ritz is not nearly the kind of shakedown. That that was but I think some of them are being gently encouraged to buy around cuffs graphs. Just crazy because one point seven trillion dollars still make Saudi Aramco the most valuable company in the world. It is the most valuable company in the world. The I mean this the Saudi family jewels. And if you think about the pride enjoy of your country think the engine that makes your country move and you have a thought in your your head about what that is worth. It's very difficult to sell it. For Less Alright Samantha. Thank you thank you no problem. Today's episode of the indicator was produced by Jared Marquel L. fact checked by Nadia Lewis. Editor is Paddy Hirsch and the indicator is a production of NPR.

Saudi Aramco Aramco Saudi Arabia Saudi Aramco Coke Saudi Aramco Princes Aramco Saudi Royal Family Saudi government Samantha Gross Mohammed Arabia NPR Stock Banks New York Salman Ritz State Farm Dot Com
Trump faces a challenging moment in Saudi-U.S. relations. What's at stake?

Can He Do That?

29:53 min | 2 years ago

Trump faces a challenging moment in Saudi-U.S. relations. What's at stake?

"Jamal kashogi a contributing columnist at the Washington Post walked into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey on October second. He did not walk out. Karen Attiyah is the global opinions editor here at the Washington Post. She worked closely with Jamal during his time writing for our opinion section. For me Jamal. In particular, as far as the writers that we manage for the global opinion section, Jamal in particular, for me was one of the writers over the last few months that I was like, okay, I'm going to clear my workload a bit so that I can have more time for we had all these plans and. I just I just it's just unfair. Jamal is a veteran Saudi journalist. He's a man who carrying describes as a brave writer and a huge source of knowledge. Jamal. Just one of the preeminent Saudi writers today he's been known in Saudi for thirty plus years or so very well known for being close to the Saudi Royal family. He was an adviser to one of the intelligence officers actually, and over the years, turned to journalism had a call them had been hired in than fired for many places for his his views about pushing for reforms from within the system in in the Saudi kingdom. The relationship between Jamal and the Washington Post's opinion section began when Karen sought his insight on the actions of Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin zome. Mom. So the story goes is that we were reading a lot about the crackdown, their crown prince Mohammad bin someone, and that he was just arresting hundreds of princes, businessmen, journalists, and we were seeing this and we, I was saying that, you know, k. this figure name Jamal show. She is being quoted by everybody from the New York Times to Reuter. So obviously he's somebody who knows something, but I hadn't really seen any full length like all bed. Right. And so I figured, okay, well, let's try to get him to explain in a longer format. You know what's happening, and he said, sure, okay, we'll do it. And that piece was entitled Saudi Arabia has been repressive, but now it's unbearable, right? And he turned in the peace and he said, you know, this is really painful for me to write. I really debated whether or not I should say it, but I feel I have to, and I think we just, we just realized, okay, here's somebody who we can turn to. To kind of, you know? Yes, offer critique of the very obvious like crackdowns and injustices that were happening, but still someone who is not trying to bring the Saudi regime down, not someone who is this fiery revolutionary, he wanted to overturn everything. No, he wanted to work within the system. So we had a, yeah, we had a good relationship, although I think I could tell it was a lot who sent me messages. Sometimes you just say, you know, I'm sad, I'm depressed. I miss my family. They're pressuring my family and my children to to pressure me to get to me. News that Jamal was missing, came to Karen and others at the Washington Post via international contacts. Those people were pointing to an article in Arabic that quoted Jamal's fiance in that article. She said Jamal had entered the Saudi consulate in Turkey to obtain documents that would allow the two to get married. She had waited for him for hours, but Jamal hadn't come out. My first thought was all right. This is disturbing, but knowing what he's even written about how the Saudis operate, perhaps browsers questioning him, perhaps they're just sort of, you know, giving him a hard time about what he's doing here, and they'll just let him go even I, I had that idea for a few days, but I think it was maybe maybe around Thursdays, two days later we had, we'd heard nothing. And that's when we started. I, I wrote a piece or. Short blog posts, just sort of like you're saying that his silence was disturbing and deafening, and I just know, said I hope hoop, he's okay. Hope you're okay if you can need this. And again, as the days went on that Saturday here in the leaks from Turkey that they had evidence that he had been killed murdered. I just my heart was sinking. I think it's it's been. It's it's been a slow moving nightmare in that sense, not having sort of definitive proof either way right. This is. Can he do that a podcast that explores the powers and limitations of the American presidency? I'm out in Michael's. Jamal kashogi is alleged killing has created a foreign policy crisis for the Trump administration. The relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia is a complex on American interests in oil arms, Middle, East ability and human rights. Each Atta complicating dimension that have challenged American presidents for decades for our current president, perceived conflicts of interest at even more pressure to the need for a proper response. That's why determining as much as possible about what happened or didn't happen inside a Saudi consulate to a journalist to US resident. It matters at this point. What we do know is troubling will we know for sure actually is very little, but a lot has leaked out through various channels, but essentially what we know is an October second in the afternoon, Jamal went into the south. Consulate in his ton bull Turkey to retrieve a document that he needed to marry his fiance, who's a trucker citizen. She was waiting outside. He handed her phones, you walked into the building. The assumption was that he would get the document and he would come back out and they would go back on their way. There is video of him going into the consulate that we have now seen security footage. There is no record video with him ever coming out. Shane Harris is a national security reporter at the Washington Post. He's been covering Jamal story closely. What is alleged to have happened is he went in in group of Saudi agents was waiting for him in the consulate Turkish officials believe they intercepted him there they may have interrogated him. It's not clear, they believe that he was killed and that his body was then dismembered. And then he was presumably removed from the building preps. Maybe he was buried somewhere. These individuals flew in on a private jet owned by a company that works for the Saudi government. There was another group on a second jet that also fluent estan bull after the. Men arrived at the consulate. We believe they then went in cars to the consul general's house, stayed there for some time than everyone goes to the airport and they fly away. So it's this kind of operation. It sounds like something out of a spy movie, really. I mean, almost to the point where if you scripted, it would sound like it's too predictable, but what it really sounds like is that the Saudis and sent this team there too. We don't know if they meant to interrogate him or capture him or kill him, but the Turks certainly believed that he has died. And of course we haven't confirmed that, but he has not been heard from since October second. Now, why would this Audis want to intercept him at the consulate? This is a really great question. The first question is, why would the Saudis want to harm him at all? I mean, think to remember about Jamal kashogi is that he's often described as a dissident journalist, but Jamal was part of the inner circle of the ruling family. He comes from an extremely prominent family in Saudi Arabia. So he was an insider and his break came as he started being more. Critical of the current regime led by Mohammed bin soman who's the crown prince? And this is where he appears to have gotten on the wrong side of the government and really particular prince Mohammed. And then eventually, Jamal came back to came to the United States and lived here in a self imposed exile. So the question has been a y, would the Saudi regime seek to silence one who was really kind of one of their in wasn't agitating for regime change. He wasn't calling from Hamad bin. So Monto overthrown or to step down. He was writing critically and sometimes even favorably about Saudi government policies. That's one piece. The question is to why the consulate in Istanbul is also another interesting when we know a couple of things that might give some hint of that. We know that during the summer period leading possibly into the full US intelligence agencies were intercepting communications by Saudi officials, talking about a plan to lure Jamal from his home in Virginia back. Saudi Arabia and detain him there and what the intelligence shows that this was planned to Mohammed bin soman himself ordered in wanted completed. Now, Jamal did not go back to Saudi, so it may be that the plan to get him back to Saudi and detain him. There wasn't working and that what we saw happening at the consulate in Istanbul was kind of a plan b. There's still so much about that piece of it that we just don't understand. There is of course so many details. We still don't know. Audio recordings have emerged though we haven't quite heard them does most of the information that has been reported then come from Turkish sources. This is the bulk of it does come from Turkish sources. This point, the investigators, another people in the region, there is the audio recording. You mentioned no one has actually heard the audio, we believe outside of Turkish official channels. Certainly, no journalists have heard it in my own reporting. I have no reason to believe that US officials have heard it either, but it's been described to officials in the United States and other governments where the Turks say, look, we have this audio recording. It proves you killed. It proves he was dismembered. Here's what it sounds like. Now, until that audio comes out, there's no definitive proof on that. What's been interesting is that we're not hearing a lot of pushback about what the you might say from US and other countries officials. They seem to be saying, well, it sounds plausible seems credible. There is the fact that mall was. Gene going into the building and never came out. That's a pretty definitive piece of information right there, so, but it is largely coming from the Turkish side. And it's important to note that because the Turks have a very vested interest in making the Saudis look bad. That was my question. Did they have motivation to mislead? Absolutely do that. You know, they might want things in the way of debt relief or other concessions from the Saudis. There could be any number of things that they wanted. They think this could provide leverage for, but the US government, it's been very interesting has not as far as we know really listen to the audio and tried to make any kind of independent assessment of it. We're all sort of waiting to see what the Saudis say happened and what the Americans than say in response to what the Saudi say, the Saudis the Turks are doing a joint investigation. I think there's some reason that's not fairly. It's not really credible one, but it is kind of a one-sided bit of information apart from what we know about prior Saudi efforts to try and lower back Jamal, which you're coming from the US side. Let's talk about somebody whose name you mentioned before Mohammed bin Salman the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, who is this man Mohammed bin so Mon is the crown prince which affectively means he is the heir to the Saudi throne. So he is. Is next in line to be king, his father's the current king king soman. He is thirty three years old. What I know about been so on his largely been from my own sources in the intelligence community who painted a picture that is very much at odds with the one we tend to see a lot of the press today, which is that been so modest young, he is sort of leaning towards the west. He's a moderating force. He he wants to try to tamp down on the extremist. Islam that has kind of run rampant through Saudi Arabia. He's a wants women to be able to drive. He's letting people go to movies. The intelligence community in this country has had a much dimmer and darker view of in some on. They've seen it somebody who is rash, uninformed, inexperienced and ruthless. And I think that the ruthlessness really kind of came on public view when we saw the way that he rose from his ministerial position quickly through the ranks to become the crown prince in doing that effectively, neutralized pushed aside many people who would have been rivals. In that ascendance. So the idea that this young brash inexperienced young thirty, something suddenly pushing aside all of these old guard. 'cause a lot of anxiety at the CIA and around here in Washington and other agencies as well. What do we know about his relationship to the events in Turkey? So what we know comes from a few different strains reporting at the top level. Analysts and officials. I've talked to in multiple countries, say it is essentially impossible that Mohammed bin soman would not have known that this team fifteen. Men had gone to stone bowl to deal with Jamaica Shoghi and their number of reasons why there's the first part, which is that nothing really happens in the Saudi government right now without Mohammed bin. So knowing about it, he's actually quite a micromanager, but then there's other pieces of information that really do point to connection between this event and Mohammed bin soman one, we know that Jamal kashogi was getting phone calls from a senior Saudi named settled. El Kettani who is very close to Mohammed bin soman who was trying to lure him back to Saudi promising job, promising him security. We know that US intelligence reports were picking up Saudis talking about Mohammed bin. So months desire, his order to lure Jamal back to Saudi Arabia. We know that of the fifteen people that the Turks say were part of this security team that went to tumble. We think at least nine of them have ties to the security services in ways that we can actually document from either our sources or their own social media profiles. One individual in particular, we rebel to find his passport record maintained by the US government, which shows that he was in the United States just three days before Mohammed bin soman was here on his big national tour in the spring. And this individual also identifies online as a member of the Saudi Royal guard. So you're seeing a lot of these different circumstantial and intelligence linkages between the plot and NBS coupled with the fact that things just don't happen. I including something of this scale analysts, say, without mama, Vince Oman's knowledge or at least understanding that something been set in motion, they just don't find it credible that he would be ignorant of this Mohammed bin. Salman is one piece of the current relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia. But of course, this complicated relationship goes back decades. It's been tense far before President Trump. Far before MB s. historically what has made the US Saudi relationship quite this complicated. It's a long relationship. There are sorta some foundational components to it. One is oil of course, said he Arabia has his long, been one of the major exporters of oil and exerts tremendous authority over the OPEC of system. So the regulating the supply of oil, the pricing voile. Another one is military and strategic. So Saudi Arabia is one of our key military partners in the region. It is seen as a bulwark against Iran, in broad terms, Iran is its main rival in the region and the rivalry in the conflict between Saudi Arabia in Iran actually explains much of the security amick in the region over the past many years. So they're kind of on side with us in that sense. And obviously the relationship between the US in Iran has been pretty much you know in the ditch since nineteen seventy nine when the Islamic revolution happened and they took our embassy in also, you know, within that context, many senior Saudi leader. Have been educated in the west. They've lived in the United States. They've been friends of presidents. They've been here the current foreign minister. Many model Jubeir spent many years in Washington was a socialite in Washington. People knew him. They went out, they partied with them. These are people who really have a long history of being in the United States and the Saudi Royal family and the government in particular has these very close personal connections that are also rooted in this economic and security interests that we've had, and that kind of gets you to the moment we're in now where it's not just that this administration has close ties to the Saudis. Every administration has had some of close ties the Saudis, but they sort of wax and wane in the level of tension. Saudi Arabia is a place that history of human rights violations yet, as you mentioned, we have many, many interests both in that country ended in the region for which Saudis are important partner. How past presidents manage this relationship will I think that is all been largely dependent on two main factors. One is there. This sort of at base economic energy and security relationship, the kind of forms the foundation, but then there have been moments of crisis and opportunity that have depending have changed how we interact with them. So you know, when we've been fighting wars in Iraq, how he's become very valuable, that relationship kind of gets closer. But I think that really broadly speaking, I'm not sure any president has a really credible job of really challenging the Saudis on their human rights record at tends to be something that we just accept. I think that may be unfair to some administrations. They might think that they push him in ways, but we have not really mounted effort. I think to try and force the Saudis, you know, to be more liberal in their policies towards women. For instance, critical rhetoric, critical rhetoric saying it's important and look. There've been definitely frosty periods of the relationship. It was. There was the case, I think with President Obama and his administration. But I think also is one reason why when Mohammed bin so on did start implementing these reforms people in the American government said, wow, this could really be an opening. This could be somebody that we can. Work with, and that's why he's he's really been the beneficiary of a lot of that hopeful optimism about what Saudi could be an example of this complicated relationship playing out in real time right now is this one hundred million dollar payment made from Saudi Arabia to the United States on Tuesday. And that's the same day that secretary of state Pompeo was in Riyadh Saudi Arabia back in August, did in fact pledge this money to the US to help with our efforts in Syria. But is there any reason to question the timing of this payment? Yeah, I mean, I tend to believe that there aren't really any coincidences in foreign policy, so no thirty quences and foreign policy. I think that officials I've been talking to analysts in number of countries what they see now is the administration, the Trump administration, the Saudis, looking for some you truly agreeable way to get out of this mess to find an explanation for what happened that deflects blame. From the crown prince Mohammad bin soman and we're already seeing this taking shape. I mean, you saw the president come out the other day after talking to king soman MVS's father and saying, well, I don't know. We're gonna see what happens. It might be rogue killers, which was interesting because at that point the Saudis hadn't said anything about what they thought happened that Jamal, they said, we don't know areas. We thought he left. So suddenly the president's talking to the king and now he's floating road killers idea, we know from our own reporting, the Saudis were already preparing this line and find looking for a way to float that balloon and eventually make a statement that blamed this on somebody else other than the crown prince. So I think what you're seeing with his hundred million dollar payment is one of the sort of gears clicking into place. Alternately what the resolution of this crisis is going to look like. And yes, they owed us the money, but I suppose it's a convenient time as ever to go ahead and pay us. How has Trump been reacting to the alleged events in Turkey and how does it compare to how. Experts might expect a president to react under these circumstances. So I think that most people would say that the position from the president needs not to be one of simply taking the Saudis word for standing by them, but demanding a credible independent investigation as to what really happened and then taking some appropriate measure anything. They would also say the response should not be coming up with scenarios like rogue killers before we have all the facts. We still don't know exactly what happened. There's been a lot that's been improvisational about the president's response to this, but the experts think see him going in the direction of trying to get in front of this to give cover to the Saudis. You know, we know that Jared talked to Mohammed bin. So mon- in recent days, they put that out and said, he demanded transparency within the president comes out and seems to be giving cover to the Saudis by saying, well, you know, maybe it's real killers the king, give me a very strong denial. I've, I've talked to the crown prince. He strongly denies any. Thing about this. I mean, essentially is coming out and he's in a way vouching for them vouching, both for their character and their denials vouching to some extent to the information that there for the information they're telling him when we don't really have any independent analysis around government of that fascinating. We had interview this week with Rudy Giuliani. The president's personal learn adviser who told us on the record that more than a week ago. Most people in the White House, you talked to just had already concluded the Saudis where responsible. So what we're seeing is the president being at odds, I think from what most people in his national security establishment think happening. Frankly, what most observers think happened, we can all see the tape of Jamal going in and we know he didn't come out. So this is again an instance where the president is on a different side of this argument than many of his advisors and his top officials. And what this leads back to this question of does the president side with people who thinks are friendly to him or who are loyal to him or going to do him favors. So what do we know about President Trump's business interests with the Saudis? Well, he says he has no business interest in Saudi Arabia, which might be true, but it's not the case that Saudis have no business interests in him. They've bought his condos. We know that Saudi official state his tells when they traveled to the United States. There's also other interesting sort of pieces not directly about side of it a little bit around the perimeter of this. So we reported several months ago at the post that the US intelligence community intercepted officials in different foreign capitals talking about how they could exert influence over Jared Kushner because they thought that he was naive on foreign policy and inexperienced. And also he was having financial difficulties of his own Saudis. We don't think were among the people her talking about that, but officials in the United Arab Emirates were in the UAE is an extremely close ally to Saudi Arabia. In fact, the leader of the UAE is seen as a mentor to Mohammed bin soman in Saudi Arabia, so that at least tells you that in the region and in these. Places that are close to the Saudis. There are people talking about how they can exert financial leverage to get policy gains that are favorable to them over Jared Kushner. Now he forcefully pushes back against any of that. He is consistently said that his business interests in the national interest are not in conflict with another. But this in itself is an old story. Now for the Trump administration, we've just never had president, you know who we had to question whether or not he was, you know, literally making decisions in the moment of crisis like this one with Saudi Arabia because he doesn't want to anger the government of Saudi Arabia that stays in hotels and to be clear like we don't have any evidence that that's why making decisions. But we are having to ask that because there's a credible reason to believe that could be a conflict yet. It's not illegal for him to host the Saudis in his hotel will there's a question about that. So there's a question. Some people say whether this would violate the emoluments clause of the constitution, which basically says that, you know. A government official can't take gifts from from a foreign government. So the question would be there whether or not Saudi government officials staying in his attell isn't emolument, and that's something that courts have to decide. But you know, I think there's probably a lot of leeway it's given to presidents, you know, in terms of how they interact with foreign governments. But we've never had a president who owns a hotel chain foreign officials, book rooms at it, in summary, taking into account the conflicts of interest and are very complicated relationship with Saudi Arabia. Trump's that on Thursday that it appears Jamal Shoghi is dead. And if it was in fact Audi Arabia who's responsible for it, the consequences would be quote, very severe. What might very severe consequences look like in this case, we wouldn't cut ties the, there's too much at stake in the region. From the security standpoint, there are things that we could do certainly to punish them. We could do sanctions that might be a bit extr. Cream. We could decide to skill back on the amount of military hardware that we're going to sell them. President Trump is sort of nixed that idea because he's been saying essentially that it's too important to our own economy to continue selling them weapons. There are certainly other probably diplomatic leverage is that we could push against them, but that's not to say any of this would be easy. It will not come without cost, and that's actually what makes a foreign policy perspective this such a delicate and problematic situation. Because on the one hand, United States wants to send a clear message that to resume that you, you can't kill people with impunity like this. You can't attack journalists than Jamaica. Shoghi was a legal resident of the United States on the other. It seems highly unlikely that we would blow up the entire relationship with the Saudis just based on this one incident as horrific as it is. In the meantime, what can Trump do right now, does that by those who are critical of his approach, what he could do, maybe in sequence would be decided the Turkish government. Okay. We want to. Here this audio. And if you have video, we want to hear it. He's actually said he'd like to hear it, but he could actually forcefully say he could tell his intelligence director to call the Turks, say, give it to us. We need to see this when he independently verify it. The intelligence community could very quickly like an day, doing independent assessment of that and decide for themselves what they think it shows the president could then demand transparent investigation and put pressure on it to be transparent. And he could, frankly send his officials as he has Mike Pompeo over to sit down with the Saudi government and say where we're at inflection point here, and you are going to have to come clean and you're gonna have to say what happened or they're going to be real consequences. Those are very concrete, not easy, but concrete and direct steps that he could do. This is a as much as this is a ballooned into a foreign policy crisis. This is discreet episode and usually what happens around these as you start to put a process in place because it's through process. Yes, that we have rigor, we have transparency and we have checks and we give people so sure Ince's and we have credibility in the president's being very improvisational about this, but they're absolutely things that he could do, and they don't necessarily just involve saying, well, I talked to king some on it. He says, they didn't do it. So I guess that's it. That's that's not a credible investigation. Nobody believes that's credible. In Thursday's opinion, section of the newspaper, the Washington Post published a final column from Damascus Shoghi Karen Attiyah received the column from demolish translator assistant the day after Jamal was reported missing in Istanbul. Yes. This column was about the air worlds need for freedom of expression, particularly for journalists, and he recounted his friends in Saudi Arabia who'd been jailed for appearing to criticize Saudi authorities, almost rally in the newspaper in Egypt's that had been that the government sees their print Ryan, and he. Like these things happen and people just seem to. Homerun home and accept it, and in turn the other way. And so it was really kind of clarion call for no independent platforms for these voices that didn't have don't have a home journalistic home anymore in in the Middle East. What would you like to see come from all of this. So what I'd hope first of all had hoped that this is an opportunity for people to learn about your mall to learn about what he was fighting for, which was more freedom both politically and journalistically in the world. And if anything that people may be who tried to silence them only elevated his work and his ideas and you can't kill his ideas right. This has been another episode of, can he do that as always if you liked it, please leave us a review, share it with your friends posted on social media and comeback to listen again next week for more developments in Jamaica. Shoghi story, visit Washington Post dot com. Can't you do that is a team effort here. Post. It's produced by the charming. Carol alderman with design help from cat rebel Brooks logo art from the Ren, Bo Cleo, and theme music by tad molten.

Saudi Arabia Jamal United States president Saudi government Mohammed soman Jamal kashogi Saudi consulate Turks Saudi Royal family Washington Post Turkey President Trump Saudi Crown Istanbul Mohammed bin Saudi Royal guard Washington
Turkey Makes the Most of Its Moment

What Next | Daily News and Analysis

22:49 min | 2 years ago

Turkey Makes the Most of Its Moment

"Goal. It's been three weeks since journalists, Jamal kashogi was murdered and October. Second, he walked into the Saudi consulate Istanbul and never came out not alive at least every time you think you've heard all the terrible details about his death or learn. Another one is just another unbelievable cover story. So let's say this out Audis was autopsy expert in that a bone. So was used on the body after murder. Abon saw talk of an assassination squad. It sounds like Turkish authorities are moving towards the theory that this indeed was a targeted murder in each bit of information, each new horrific detail. It's all been coming from the same place Turkish officials claim. He was murdered by a fifth in Turkey. Turkish officials are accusing Saudi Arabia hours. Unnamed turkeys officials have told the Washington Post Reuters that he was. Killed in that consulate essentially that Turkish officials have come to the conclusion that he was murdered. CNN has not been able to independently confirm those reports today, the president of Turkey, reject Erta one. He stood in front of parliament and kept making the case kashogi. Death was premeditated. Shauna. He called the murder a political act. He called for an independent investigation. You could feel president or to one tightening of is spinning this web facts. That would be hard to escape watching that speech ahead. One question for Turkey. What next? I'm Mary Harris, slates own, Josh, Keating's going to help me answer that question today, but I, I'm going to talk to sleet writer. Ayman is my ill as a Muslim American. He's been thinking about what happened to Jamal kashogi from a totally different perspective, and he's got some ideas about her Muslims like him can take action, stay with us. This episode is sponsored by Intel, not that you would open Photoshop and illustrator, and every application on your computer all at the same time just for fun, but you could with the eighth gen Intel core processor with Intel, octane memory, you can push your computer to limits, new computers with Intel. Often memory are now faster and more responsive, which means you can open load and launch, like never before learn more at Intel dot com. Slash you could. When president or to one addressed parliament in Turkey on Tuesday, who's really careful and how he spoke about the Saudi Royal family. He used a formal name for king Salman. He called him the custodian of the two, holy mosques. It was a reminder that for those who practice Islam, Saudi Arabia isn't just a place. It's a place. Muslims are required to go at least once in their lives. If they can. I spiritual pilgrimage known as the hajj for slates Ayman Ismael. The hajj has always been something he's longed for since he was small. The remember when I was a kid they had they'd set up a fake one in the gymnasium for us to go around. And it said, if a fake Hosh to teach us how to do it and teach us like the significance in a member, have this picture of me in the mix as a little kid like loving it, like, this is awesome. But these days Ayman's been thinking a lot about how much he's willing to compromise when it comes to his spiritual responsibility because the Hodges expensive and all that money goes to the Saudi government. A government that seems to be responsible not just for Jamal kashogi death, but humanitarian crises in places like Yemen to tell me how long have you been saving for the? I've been saving for the hedge for the last two years. How much money do you think you need for me and my wife to go together? I think I need about twenty thousand dollars. What does that include that includes like hiring someone getting a plane ticket. What does it, what does it all? So you need to pay the visa to on Monday, wrote an article called, what's the Muslim to do about the hajj housing. He wants young Muslims like himself to reconsider the pilgrimage America or New York City to mecca, and it's a whole month you're taking? Yeah, it's one of those things that you consciously need to decide you're going to be doing years in advance. My mom went and you know, never gonna. Forget my dad making meals for us. You know, it's different. But those kinds of memories that you have that your mom went on her own. Yeah, we couldn't be left alone kids. So like my dad and my mom had to go separately. When you came back, what did she say about it? She said it was the single greatest moment of her life. Really? Yeah. And she meant it. I mean, think about the experience, right? We've seen pictures people dress all the same people. You not really understanding everyone because everybody's speaking a different language. Everybody's coming from a different culture, different background, but still you all come together tens of millions of people to perform the exact same actions in performing the exact same ritual. So it's this spiritual oneness that I- magin is like, if what stock had a Woodstock, you know what I mean? Like out of control where there's all these people coming together peacefully for for one purpose. So I can imagine that it's spiritually transforming when you speak about it. I can hear this longing in your voice goal. So. Oh, so you've been thinking about Saudi Arabia's role in the Muslim faith for a while, but then this month here about what happened with dramatic Shoghi. What changed what changed for me was I noticed that the western media was paying attention now. You know, I, I've always had my doubts reservations about these like foreign governments, Egypt during the the Arab spring, and we all thought that the spring was gonna free Arab peoples all over the whole region. And when it came to Saudi Arabia, they crack down right away. Brutally, you know. So the Saudi Arabian government being brutal isn't news to anyone, not not anymore of them. I don't think either it's that suddenly CNN was reporting on it regularly in that Fox News was even reporting on it and Trump was tweeting about it. You know, I can't think of the last time van Jones had anything to say about the crisis. In Yemen, you know, which has been happening for the last three years. So it was a moment of clarity. Now everybody's talking about it. This is this is a good thing, but what's going to happen is the pressure going to dissolve or are Muslims going to start thinking about how they themselves can pressure the custodians of the holy places to act. Right? So you're definitely not going to go this coming year. I don't think I could. I mean, the only thing that would change that as if the Saudi government took responsibility for what they did and took a step in wanting to fix the wrongdoings that they've done to the innocent people in Yemen. I can't say that I'm beyond the pale, you know, but I can't say that I'm morally and ethically at a loss of how I can go on hedge and focus on this virtuality that my my mom. Was talking about the my dad talked about when you came back. Have you talked to your family about this? Yes. What do they say? My father didn't understand. He told me that there's nothing that brings those two together for him. Okay. You have a political grievance. I understand that that should have nothing to do with the with the pilgrimage and I don't think he's wrong. I think he's right. You know, I think I want to be able to be that person to go on the pilgrimage and focus on just chill development. Exactly. You know, but I'm playing through to my mind right now. I'm I'm seeing myself show up to the airport, giving the the several thousand dollars to the officer who's going to accept the visa money, and I'm not gonna see that money again and I know where that money is going to go. So and I'm not trying to tell Muslims, we have to boycott. This is the breaking point. This is it. I just want to voice that dilemma that I was going through and. And I was surprised to see that so many people related, but I do think it's important for me to make that distinction. I'm not putting out a call of action to say, we need to abandon the hatch. If you've been saving money and you think you can focus on your hedge, go like, that's awesome. I want to be that person. But right now I'm, I don't think I can what's been. The response to article of had a lot of people that I respect come to me and say that they didn't think that this was the best course of action for Muslims to take. Why do you think that is? Why do you think so many people have come to you and said, now this is this is too far. This is something we shouldn't do. I mean, it makes sense that something that I was thinking before hitting the published by, you know, this isn't. I'm not here for the pure argument. You know what I mean? I don't think that in its core, there's only one way to see it or feel or are. Or think about it. I think this is the the new ones that comes with going through this kind of moral and ethical dilemma. I think everyone's going to be able to everyone has to be able to respond to it their own way. And as long as that is maintained, then it's totally understandable. And on that somebody would come to me and say, this is the wrong decision because for them, yes, it is. That's true for them. But for me, it's not how much money do you have saved up right now? Ten grit, some halfway there. You're halfway there. Got some time to think about it and they have some time to to clean up. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Support for what next comes from six. When it comes to current events, market trends in technological advancements knowledge is power for businesses. Being able to stay ahead of those trends and advancements paramount. Citric digital workspaces, help organizations streamline their technology strategy in create a seamless work experience that deuce productivity and Chile without sacrificing security with six. You get a unified flexible platform that works with any cloud. Any device or technology, maximizing this investments in infrastructure will seamlessly integrating new business models, new products, new services, but it's not just about the future six dollars delivers real time access to information insights and analytics that organizations can use to inform decisions today and stay ahead of the competition. Knowledge is power and technologies, key with citric, no matter what happens in your business industry or region, or halfway around the world, your organization. Quickly, pivot to whatever comes next, learn more at citric dot com. Slash how citric this is how the feature works. I've always kind of been on version this beat since two thousand seven might beat so broad out like entire world. If the question about the world, I talked to this guy, my name's Josh Keaton. I'm a senior editor slate focusing on foreign policy and international news, prince foreign policies, crown prince if I called up Josh because I wanted him to tell me more about who turkeys, rigid tub or two one is and what he might want from this diplomatic crisis. One piece I saw compared to one to a mafia boss milking this moment where he could turn the world against his big regional competitor, Saudi Arabia. Yeah. I mean, one thing to point out his heir to anew Kush. Oh, they were there apparently friends. Obviously that aside Turkey wants to use everything, it can to sort of sideline NBS, Josh is talking about NBS that's Mohammed bin Salman the real crown. Prince crown prince of Saudi Arabia as one leaves this breadcrumb trail of information about Jamal Shoghi Steph seems to me that the US and Saudi Arabia and Turkey are locked in this love triangle. The United States needs allies in the Middle East Turkey and Saudi Arabia want US support politically financially. So I asked Josh to explain who the players are here starting with president or two one. The former mayor of estan bull. He's associated with the KP party, which is a religious party fought against these longtime secularist military dominated government in Turkey. So we first came to power in two thousand three, and he was prime minister for a long time. And then he altered the constitution basically to make a stronger presidential system and then moved over to the president's office where he's been in power since two thousand fourteen. He went through this volition personally to write winning. I came to power. There was some hope that he would open up the country and there'd be more journalistic freedom and a more open political system. Right? Your on was viewed with a lot of hope, especially in the US has this kind of model of, you know what a moderate Islamic government could be Turkey wasn't exactly democratic before it had been this longtime in forced secular system with, you know, domination of the military, and he seemed to be, you know, a definitely somebody believes in political Islam, but had a more kind of modernizing liberal approach to it and he was a big supporter of some of the spring movements to. Right, absolutely. It was a major backer of the Arab spring, particularly the short lived Muslim Brotherhood government came to power and Egypt, and that's kind of at the root of his, the current conflict between him and. The Saudis. Tell me more about that. Well, so they sort of found themselves on opposite sides of this Turkey was a major backer of these revolutions and inside some of these sort of more Islam, governments that were overthrowing, longtime, secular autocracies has kind of modeling themselves on Turkey in some away while the Saudi government is it self very religious. It also it tends to values to -bility and definitely sees the Muslim Brotherhood in any of its incarnations as a major threat. So in Egypt, particularly, they found themselves on office at sides with Turkey associating itself with the Muslim Brotherhood government led by president, mom, and Morsi and Saudi Arabia backing what was eventually the coup that brought the current president updo Fatah's he c- to power? Yeah, it was last week when I spoke to texter Filkins he said, well, with Turkey and Saudi Arabia, they're both kind of vying to be. The leaders of the SUNY world yet it's true. An airline is particularly ticked off by the Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman who sort of tried to present himself to the outside world as as the, you know, modernizing reformer liberalize her, but really, you know, what would NBS pushing not so much liberalization but moving Saudi Arabia way from kind of, you know, theocracy to a more of like nationalist more secular autocracy. And so you know, that's obviously something that you know this Turkish government is going to oppose. We're gonna NBS in a second, but I just wanna I wanna paint a little bit more of a picture of of earn on because he sort of gradually became more authoritarian de opin that on any one moment. I think the big kind of inflection point where it became sort of impossible to defend him as some kind of liberal was after the failed coup of twenty sixteen. This was in the summer of two thousand sixteen failed. Military coup tried to overthrow to on and thousands of people were arrested, including journalists, several newspapers, shut down, and you know this, this included several American citizens including the the pastor Andrew Brunson who is just released earlier this month. So what was spent the last month talking about Jamal kashogi and Saudi Arabia's role in suppressing speech. The thing that becomes clear when we talk a little bit about who earn on is, is that the people providing all the intelligence in this case are also not particularly friends to journalists? Yeah, it's it's one of the. These ironic cases where is sort of moment of reckoning about, you know, human rights, the rule of law and respect for journalists. This sort of moment is being driven by a steady drip of information that's coming out from Turkish officials and from the state run Turkish media Turkey is according to the committee to protect your analysts, the world's leading jailer journalists that has more reporters behind bars than any other country. I think he said it was like seventy three as as of last year they're seventy three. We get updated numbers on that pretty soon. And you know, Turkey, as I mentioned before has pursued its own critics abroad. I mean, there have been several cases of sort of borderline kidnapping of suppose, Google and supporters and other countries. So it's it's not as if this is you know a cut and dried case of, you know, freedom versus autocracy. This is if the US reassesses its relationship with one sort of problematic. Longtime ally that locks up or kills its critics said it may benefit another one. Well, what do you think Turkey wants out of the situation? One, they would love to sideline mom and Penn salmon who heard one plainly loathes and either reduces influence or curb Kim, or take him out of the line of succession. You know, if that's not possible. I think it's worth it to them just to kind of drive a wedge between the US and Saudi Arabia. A few months ago, US Turkish relationships were in a really bad place that said they've improved a bit lately. There's a kind of path forward where things really improved for the US Turkey, a relationship, and he would love to at the same time to see US Saudi relationships kind of downgraded. Eamon comfortable with that. I mean. It's Dan, if you don't. I mean, it's, I think we should knowledge that all these players kind of have their own interests and that we have limited leverage and we shouldn't be getting onboard entirely with any of them. I was struck by looking at the speech today was that earn one was actually pretty differential to the king of Saudi Arabia, but he didn't mention the name of Mohammed bin Salman at all. Did you notice that too? Yes, there's a kind of perspective on this that what there is now less the Saudi problem than an MBA problem. I think that the ground prints from the perspective of a lot of people, he's kind of Bray behaved in this really cavalier manner that's destabilize the Middle East and what Turkey would really want is to see him if not taken out of the line of succession, at least sort of rain, dental little bit. Have his wings, clipped impart the speech could be read as a message to MB SS, dad, you know, come get your boy. Let's let's, you know, get the situation under control. This kid's gone way too far. But you know, after the speech is over, NBS showed up at that. -ment conference. Everyone's been talking about for a couple of weeks that he got a standing ovation. Does that just show how hard this is going to be? You go to standing ovation with this conference is not what the Saudis were hoping it would be. I think they wanted this sort of. They wanted the, you know, the IRS of the world and the Alon Musk's the world hobnobbing with him. You know what they get. Is there kind of traditional friends, which is Hoyle companies and energy services companies and some businessmen from Russia. So you know, the Saudi monarchy is not toppling anytime soon, and there's little sign of that, but this kind of idea that NBS could present himself as the sort of western friendly reformer. Something that you know looked a lot more likely year ago when he was being feted by Tom Friedman and sixty minutes and taking tours Facebook than it does today. He's always going to have Russian oligarchs oil company, CEOs. You know, trying to carry favor with. Josh, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Now there's chauffeur today, and if you made it this far today, we've got some bonus content for you. You can see a picture of Amen. Is male participating in his own mini Hodge that when he talked about at the start of his interview, he calls his picture baby Ayman doing baby highs. It's adorable, you can see it on our Instagram. That's what next pod follow us there over the next month as we pilot this show in public CS chronicle this adventure in real time. What next is hosted by me Mary Harris, it's produced by Mary Wilson and Jason deleo on our engineer Terence Bernardo. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

Saudi Arabia Turkey Saudi Arabian government president Jamal kashogi Josh Keaton Salman United States NBS Ayman Ismael Yemen CNN Egypt Saudi Royal family Washington Post Intel murder Mary Harris Saudi Crown
NPR News: 12-23-2019 5PM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 1 year ago

NPR News: 12-23-2019 5PM ET

"Live from NPR news in Washington. I'm Jack Speer. Negotiations will continue into the holidays about the parameters of the Senate impeachment trial the House of Representatives has not technically transmitted articles when Peach Mint to the Senate. NPR's Tim acas more Senate majority leader. Mitch McConnell raised Sti- Browse in an interview on Fox Monday morning saying he hadn't ruled that witnesses in coming Senate trial he had previously stated that he did not want any witnesses to appear here meanwhile his Democratic counterpart Chuck Schumer elaborated on the document requests. He thought would be necessary for a fair trial. Schumer argues that the White House House and trump administration's documents deserve as much attention as witnesses. The articles of impeachment will not be transmitted to the Senate until after the house names names. It's impeachment managers. Those who will argue their case before the Senate House Speaker. Nancy Pelosi said she will not do that until the details of the trial are set to Mac. NPR News Washington as millions of Americans out for the holidays heavy rain is wreaking havoc in parts of the south. NPR's Debbie Elliott reports flood watches and warnings are in effect for parts of Louisiana Alabama Georgia and South Carolina flooding stranded motorists and closed roads in Charleston South Carolina where forecasters say a combination of coastal high tides and torrential rainfall caused flash floods. The city is using pumps to help clear the water and Atlanta several. The trees were down due to the wet soil and high winds blocking roadways. The heavy rain in Florida caused flight delays and cancellations at the Fort Lauderdale. Hollywood International L.. Airport forecasters say creeks and streams are on the rise across the region. DEBBIE ELLIOTT NPR. News Arabia has sentenced five people to death for the killing ailing of Washington Post columnist. Jamal Kashogi Kashogi grisly killing at the Saudi consulate. An Istanbul last year sparked international condemnation killing drew suspicion about the involvement of the Saudi Royal Family and Crown Prince Mohammad. Bin Saw Mon Stefan Dejoras is a spokesperson for the UN secretary. General and says there's concern more investigation should have been done. The secretary general continues to stress the need for an independent and impartial investigation into the murder to ensure full examination of can and accountability for human rights violations. Committed in the case. Kashogi is believed to have been dismembered after being killed inside the consulate. He was a vocal critic of the Royal Family. Boeing housing today. It's CEO is stepping down with a crisis continuing amidst the grounding of the company. Seven thirty seven Max. Jet Boeing says Dennis Muilenburg will leave immediately to be replaced next month by the boards. Current Chair David Calhoun the seven thirty. Seven Max has been grounded since early this year. Following two fatal crashes ashes they claim the lives of three hundred and forty six people on Wall Street. The Dow is up ninety six points today you're listening to NPR. A popular author of Romance Novels has died at the age of sixty seven as NPR's net. It'll be reports Joanna. Lindsey was being treated for lung. Cancer answer she wrote fifty five bestselling romances and sold more than sixty million books over the course of her career Joanna. Lindsey picked up writing as a young housewife. Her first book was was published when she was twenty five years old. Captive bride concerns the not entirely consensual relationship between a handsome but cruel Arab share and a passionate but submissive. English should venturous that template word for Lindsey whether set on the barbary coast the Wyoming frontier or in outer space. Join Lindsey was part of a group who redefined the bodice ripper by sexing them up in the nineteen seventies. Her books often featured a shirtless Fabio on the cover and were part of a romance renaissance. That at one point made up around forty percent of mass market paperbacks barbeques Joanna Lindsey October. The family was too distraught to make an announcement earlier according to one of her sons Netto Ulaby. NPR News Is Walt Disney shares took a bit of hit today after a worse-than-expected opening weekend for the company's final film in the latest star. Wars Trilogy Star Wars. The rise of skywalker industry analysts had forecast. Its first full weekend in theaters. Movie would take in about two hundred million dollars but at one hundred seventy five and a half million at fell short still. It was good enough enough to rate as the third largest weekend release of this year with the coming holiday period expected the rise of Skywalker will dominate the year's most lucrative week of movie going on Wall Street crude oil futures prices up eight tenths of barrel to end the session at sixty fifty two a barrel in New York I'm Jack Speer N._p._R.. News in Washington.

Joanna Lindsey NPR News NPR Senate Washington Chuck Schumer Saudi Royal Family Jamal Kashogi Kashogi Jack Speer DEBBIE ELLIOTT NPR Senate House Saudi consulate Boeing Fox Mitch McConnell White House House House of Representatives Debbie Elliott Nancy Pelosi Peach Mint
The Evil Empires Edition

Slate Money

43:11 min | 1 year ago

The Evil Empires Edition

"Hello and welcome to the evil. Empires edition of slate money or guides the business and finance news of the week. We have so many empires to talk about this week. Dun, Dun, Dun. We're going to talk about the empire from styles knowing we're gonna we're gonna. I am feeling salmon vaccines. I'm here with Emily peck of the Huffington Post who was very good singer. I'm here with Ana Chemin ski and Anna can you just give us a quick rundown of the evil empire? We're going to talk about on. We are going to be talking about the Murdoch family. We are going to be talking about Jeff Bezos. And we are going to be talking about the Saudi Royal family and the end of this show if you make it through to the hokey do because it's pretty cool. We are going to rank them in terms of evil. That is all coming up on slate money. This episode is brought to you by Goldman Sachs for insights from leading thinkers at Goldman Sachs state of markets industries and the global economy listened to their podcast exchanges at Goldman Sachs. You'll hear discussions on a variety of topics from a variety of sectors with far reaching implications, including global and regional growth forecasts finding value. Today's investing climate the impact of technology markets and much much more. That's exchanges at Goldman Sachs. Available on apple podcasts Spotify, Stitcher, soundcloud and Google play. And at GS dot com slash podcast. I'm obsessed with the story which store you obsessed by New York Times magazine story about the Murdoch family's long. It's long it reads like a novel. It spends the globe it hopscotches from Australia to Britain to the United States. And if you like succession and both Emily, and I love succession, and if I get my druthers, we're gonna have an entire slate. Plus extra succession recap thing going on when season two comes out. Suddenly you like go succession is so boring competitor, real live succession, just rips off the Murdoch story, this New York Times magazine story, I feel like they did this on purpose almost it's. Session is the same as the setup scene of the fictional show. Succession, it starts with Murdoch eighty something years old in the hospital. They think he's going to die all the sibling all his children, Russian, grandchildren, Russian Jerry Hall, the model Fourth Way of model wives in this story. Like, it's quite uncommon. In fact, I think there wasn't a single wife in the story who wasn't a model and point they're women in the Murdoch family are I mean as the story lays out there of little consequence. Although Wendy dang may. Or may not be a spy Wendy thing was the third wife, and she is pretty consequential anima, doc, it's been very consequential really powerful. Merrick was Rupert's mom who lived to the age of late ninety nine one hundred one or something like that. And was this force of nature, and the only person who could tell you what to do interestingly, not in the story that we're talking nor in this story. I was not surprised to learn that Rupert Murdoch's. Father was like an old. School white nationalist who wrote about keeping Austrailia whites explicitly. This is the real story because Murdoch was always understood when I was growing up in Britain as being in a right wing clinical force, and then he kind of became globalized, and he owned twenty Century Fox and the whole world became sort of richer, and somehow Murdoch is a political animal that story became less salient. Even as folks became a force people are like well mytalk is so much bigger than just folks. And I think what this story really does is it shows just how political meadow kits and how he has transformed politics in at least three different countries to the right? And how you as you say his dad was white nationalist, his son Lachlan is probably to the right of Rupert is putting a bunch of white nationalist on Fox News. Australia has now taken. In over. Fox News is running folks corporation here in America, and his made it an again, this is one of those things you you kind of it's true. When you think about it, you didn't necessarily think about it has moved folks significantly to the right compared to the Roger Ailes era. Roger Ailes comes out in this story is a moderate right there. There's the the example of Sean Hannity ails wouldn't let Sean Hannity I think attend a or air a political rally. But now in the new FOX era, he got to do it. And I guess FOX management sort of gave him a slap on the wrist four. But it didn't matter appeared at a Trump campaign just before the midterms and Lynch Lee went up on stage and campaigned with the president and everyone folks. Yeah, it was shocking to me. I guess I mean, I sort of knew the Murdoch's influenced British politics, and I obviously know about FOX, but the sheer scope of this one family in this one man to sort of change, global dynamics in global politics was disturbing. Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting to think about like what he in some sense took advantage of exacerbated because I think back to like the nineties were you had the Rush Limbaugh era. So you definitely. Had this strain of very far right thought. But then when FOX took it over I think because of what you can do with twenty four hour television. They were just able to amplify it to such an extent. And then I think as the internet then took over then it just went and all of these other directions that now I feel like in a way this kind of new alter altar ultra conservative FOX is trying to catch up with. I think the one of the things story shows is that Medoc has been extremely good at keeping up with eve Lucians in media when I remember the famous sun headline, it's the sun. What won it for the Tories back in you, nothing that was the major election in the early nineties, and it was I mean, there was no doubt that the sun, which is the big mess market newspaper in UK, you know, elected a conservative government. And then 'cause Brexit the son was was it wasn't the only cause of exit. But the Brexit vote was close. The sun was a very important part. Of the campaign for Brexit, and Murdoch has always been very clearly he wanted Brexit for reasons, I don't entirely understand. So that was what was also really striking to me about the piece was the interplay between the political influence, and then what happens to regulations, and what happens to their ability to make deals starting with Margaret Thatcher letting him by I think the London Times and sort of like complete his life trifecta of owning the British press. Yes. And then in the United States, you know, there was a lot of talk about how when he sells twentieth century folks to Disney that just basically that the antitrust scrutiny of that deal was cursory at bass compared to the AT time one a deal where the US government with very aggressively against it. Even though it's hot to really come up. With a coherent antitrust outlook way, you would be aggressively against AT and T time one. I absolutely don't care about Disney. Twenty hundred end location was Trump was trying to shut down that deal. Not only because he hates the end. But also because of his relationship with report Murdoch and Murdoch's didn't want that deal to happen of the article shows like basically every single antitrust decision in Australia in the US has broken Murdoch's way. The only one that didn't was his attempt to buy control of sky in your thought that the peace said the. Reason Murdoch wanted Brexit was because he felt like the EU regulations were too taxing on him, and he wanted to be free of that entirely possible. But I think he also has just this nativist exactly, you know, tendencies, which you know, you kind of is weird. There's an irony that he's this global jetsetter he happily himself US citizenship. So that he could buy the FOX network, you know, he he's a billionaire and yet despite all of this. He has this very strong, and I think genuine political conviction in favor of like native ISM and populism and all the things that his class would normally object which is clearly much more aligned with the son Lachlan as opposed to the son James, which I thought was interesting as well in this article aids just fascinating this kind of family dynamics. But also thinking about where FOX is going because the average Fox News listener is sixty five years old. So. It's clear that they need a digital strategy. They need to think about what Fox News is going to be in the future. And it seemed like James had kind of an idea, but that was in part to become more moderate which than clearly Rupert did not want. And now, it seems like Lachlan has really, you know, kind of taken over, but his influence is really strong. He s CO, folks. Cool. He's appointed hope Hicks who's, you know, famously don't Trump's right hand woman to be his chief of stuff folks called and he is announced he's basically creating a digital version of folks news, which is going to be much more like the crazy opinionated. Primetime pot folks news, but twenty four hours a day, and it's going to be over the internet because it's over the internet is going is going to be largely unregulated by the FCC, and he can basically goes far right as he wants. And no one's going to be able to stop him. There's one thing I wanted to go back to you. On Murdoch becoming a US citizen. And I that just like, I don't know why. But I knew the story already. But again, kind of blew my mind that this is perhaps the best. If there is an arguments we made against immigration. Here we have it in Fox News is founder and creator Rupert Murdoch like if Reagan hadn't fast tracked, his immigration status, our country would indeed be better off are you against that? Just saying. Sleep money is brought to you by first Republic Bank. Buying a home can be a complicated and stressful process. First Republic makes it easier by offering you personalized assistance and guidance every step of the way, your relationship manager will serve as your dedicated advisor in your search for your first home or your dream home. They can help with your loan application, and they will personally oversee the entire approval process. They can even attend alone settlement to make sure you're happy with the outcome. It's all part of first republic's commitment to extrordinary service from responsive fast support to connecting you with the resources you need along the way the goal is to deliver a seamless home-buying experience that makes you feel valued and appreciated as a client with first Republic by your side. You'll have one less thing to worry about learn more at first Republic dot com. That's first Republic dot com. First Republic Bank member FDIC, equal housing lender. So let's talk about another media mogul, the owner of the Washington Post. Mr. Jeff Bezos, who has basically been the anti Murdoch when it comes to owning an important media outlet. He has done everything that media owner supposed to do which is step back, and basically not get involved while being supportive and writing occasional checks when necessary, and he got a divorce or is getting a divorce from his wife MacKenzie, and that seems to be very amicable. At least one thing. He hasn't come in with repair is he's only only festivals fiesta catch up with. Yes. To have three more time. Yes. But the one thing that he did do as he got married to MacKenzie in Washington state, which is a common property stay without any kind of pre-nup on the thing that and so upon the split she was and is entitled to half of the joint property, and they just announced on Twitter. The basically she's getting a quarter of the joint property, and she's not and she's giving up all of her interest in postal dangerous in blue origin, which is his space exploration company. And she's even giving up all of the votes in the twenty five percent of the Amazon chess that she is retaining. She's like, you know, what Jeff you can vote all of these shows on my behalf. This is interesting to me. This is this is interesting to me because I think that what they did was they found something that made them it was like the perito optimal outcome head. Let's say she gets her thirty five billion. Let's say they roughly the winds leading the study five billion, and he gets one hundred five million you start with him getting Hof seventy billion in her getting a quarter thirty five billion, then you'll at what do we do with the extra quarter and MacKenzie base us being like a normal human being looks at the idea of having seventy billion dollars thirty five billion dollars and goes like this is not going to improve my life in any iota. Basically. In fact, it will conceivably make my life worse rather than better. Whereas Jeff looks at the idea of being whether hundred five billion compared to being seventy bingos get better because he's Jeff Bezos. He's one of these people who loves to be incredibly rich in the richest men in the world. And he does. Actually, retain now his status as being the richest man in the world, and that's on some level important to him. So giving him that extra twenty five percent makes him happier without making MacKenzie less happy. And so it kind of makes emotional sense. Yeah. I mean, I think makes sense clearly like they both handling this like adults. They they have children. It makes sense. If it clearly having any type of of this company has never seemed to be a priority for her. It doesn't make any sense why she would kind of jeopardize that future of being co parents for money that she's going to have thirty five billion dollars. She'll be okay. Yes. So she'll be the fourth richest woman in the world. Once the divorce is complete and number twenty three on Bloomberg's billionaires lists. So she's not making literally any sacrifice here financially. She I mean the way you laid it out Felix. It makes it seem like Jeff Bezos is the one who's being absurd, you know, or or. Hughes. I mean, well, I mean, I guess I I understand why he would want control of his companies. I mean, he has the fact that he doesn't have voting control of ams, and the reason that he controls Amazon is because he's the chairman and the CEO Jeff Bezos, the founder, and everyone is just going to do whatever he wants. And it doesn't matter how many votes he has the I guess maybe having more votes is better than having less votes for him. Just like having more money of better than having less money. I mean, a one thing I was thinking was so according to what I read in fortune this morning coming in there only two hundred and forty four female billionaires in the world. And according to fortune only a quarter of them are quote, unquote, self made which I feel like is this like weird term that gets thrown around self made. So as MacKenzie bazo 's would we argue she's a self made billionaire or she is a very interesting question that comes back to this idea of exactly the same rational for spilling marital property. Fifty fifty. This is a couple who between them, you know, crew. Created this for June this empire, and it's impossible to tell from looking in from the outside how instrumental she was to that. I mean, she's clearly very smart woman. Yeah. I think we can pretty clearly say that she was not as instrumentalist was I'm sorry. Like like that. This doesn't make any sense. I'm all for her having being well cared for for the rest of you know, she has enough money to obviously take the rest of her life. But this is his company. Like, yes, she was there at the beginning become we all know like from everything that has happened. Since clearly this is his idea. He's been the person who's been able to make this into the company that he is so yeah, I'm sorry. I think more of it should go to him. I'm not saying more of it shouldn't go to him. I'm asking the question is it the same company is he the same kind of mogul without the support of this wife for years and years and years. I mean. Marriage is really important in the support. You get from a spouse cannot be discounted so easily as like he did this all himself. He didn't do it on self. He had the support of good wife, and you know, who's taking care of his kids and doing other things I think at the beginning of the company, she was really instrumental helping the fact is we know counterfactual if like how successful Amazon would have been absent MacKenzie basis what we do know is the becoming this ridge this influential, this this dominating is like catching lightning in the bottle that you could have run the Jeff Bezos Amazon story ten thousand times and the chances of it coming out as a mazing successful as it did would be it would happen once or twice. And so like take MacKenzie Basil's out of the equation. He would not be this rich. We know that it would have been one of the other nine thousand nine hundred ninety eight outcomes he does oh, basically his insane wealth dominance to on some level. Yeah. You could say that with so many factors. I think I'm not saying that she didn't play a role. I'm just saying I think that the outcome that we currently have makes the most sense. And I don't think fifty fifty split honestly would have been fair to whom fair to him. I mean, if you wanna step back. None of this is fair to anyone like, no one should have thirty six billion dollars. It is ridiculous. Even a billion dollars is kind of ridiculous, right? I mean, maybe the state of Washington should have just put a chi- Bosch on all those Billy. I mean for me, I would expropriated properties aching. They're like. Like that works. I was kind of looking forward before before this split was announced. I was kind of looking forward in the back of my head to the property being the other way, the basically MacKenzie will get seventy five percents Sekine, Amazon Jeff would keep blue origin and the Washington Post and his state status as chairman and CEO of Amazon he would still control Amazon, he would still be massively wealthy. But like he doesn't actually need that stock that stock doesn't help him. That's not how law works. We don't base it. What someone needs. I'm sorry. But this is no be you've just admitted that this is not a legal thing. This is them coming up between just the two of them, basically with whatever they think makes sense between them, right? It's not that he had any legal obligation to do this. But then again, neither did she. She had every legal right to fifty percent. That is true. She had every legal, right? So and he had every legal. Right to give seventy five percent if he was client. You don't think Jeff Bezos needs his Amazon stock? No. So he could have no stock in the company. He would have if you look at like when Steve Jobs came back to apple remember he had sold all of his apple stock when he left the first time he comes back as interim CEO, they give him like a dollar salary and like a relatively small chunk of stock. But yeah, he controlled that company with absolute control the second time around without owning a particularly large amounts of that. He had his jazz in Disney. We're worth more than his shares in apple so you don't need to eat. No. The fact he owns a lot of shares in Amazon makes him rich. But it doesn't give him control the thing that gives them controls his status as the visionary. The founder of the chairman the CEO invest it with just thinking about Facebook for a second just because I had never thought of this before. But isn't the whole thing with Mark Zuckerberg running Facebook that everyone complains about is that he has all the stocking. He has a job. Chefs structure, so even though he has a minority interest in the company he actually does have voting control and control of the board. That is not the case basis under your argument because he's the visionary in the leader in the LA LA wall. I mean, I think that there's a lot of questions over his leadership abilities of his abilities to see I have made the case myself that he should resign this. He's actually re bad CO Facebook and his competence, and no one is making that case about basis, but I guess the thing would be what if something changed at the company, and then all of a sudden people were making that case about Jeff Basil's. Well, then having that the amount of odor control would in fact be, but he doesn't know his his voting control is more angry. And that is that is very true, but you're dealing with a lot of counterfactual. In the counterfactual. He just gives up everything like all of his stakes in maybe maybe maybe what he does is a bit like what he wound up doing is that he gives her seventy five percent of the economic interest. But he keeps the voting man's. There's lots of ways you can do it. I just think it's interesting to me, the he wound up basically saying I want us much as I can get and she was like, yeah. Whatever find because that's part of his brand. He needs to keep like you were saying he needs to keep up appearances. He needs to be like, the richest guy or the second richest guy in like he can't take that. He can't take that L is one of the reasons why his philanthropy is never go off the ground is because if he gets too much money away, he won't be the richest men in the world anymore. What feels great paying off high interest credit cards getting a low rate and saving money refinance your credit card balances and save with a credit card consolidation loan. From late stream get a fixed rate as low as six point one four percent APR with auto-pay, get alone from five thousand dollars to one hundred thousand dollars, and there are no fees. You can even get your money as soon as the day you apply plus light stream as a division of SunTrust Bank. One of the nation's largest financial institutions, so you can have complete peace of mind want to save even more our listeners get an additional interest rate discount. The only way to get this discount is to go to light stream dot com slash money. That's L I G H T S T R E M dot com slash money. Subject to credit approval rate includes point five percent auto-pay disc. Count. Terms and conditions apply. Offers are subject to change without notice. Visit light stream dot com slash money. For more information. Speaking of incredibly wealthy people family Saudi Royal family. This is a perfect segue because Jeff Bezos is worth one hundred and five billion dollars, which is completely insane. But that is less than the annual profits of Saudi Aramco, which is basically owned by the Saudi Royal family, and in fact, that annual profits only half of what is it two hundred forty four billion dollars of earnings Aramco makes every year and all goes in one way or another to the Saudi Royal family. It's just the most insane cash gushing that the world has ever seen. Yeah. It really is fascinating. So Saudi Aramco is going to be coming to market with a bond, and as a result of that they had to actually release financials, and this was really the first time that people have had to really look at the numbers of this company. And it really was. Pretty fascinating. I mean, partly their net income is huge. Now, the amount they pay in taxes is also like a hundred billion dollars, and they also like another tremendous amount dividend to the government as well. As a lot of money will essentially all of it, basically at this stage going to the government. So the government is the family. There's no difference. Right. But it's it really is interesting. And it's interesting to compare it to other oil companies that just generates like far more barrels a day that it's creating it's I think it's also interesting just what's the Saudis families right now trying to do thinking about what they want to make this company in the future. Because essentially, this company has always just been like, basically, this is a part of the state. This is how the state funded self. But you clearly do see Mohammed bin Salman now trying to alter this a little bit just in terms of the relationship between the company and he's trying to alter how the company accesses financing. Thing. And then that intern alters his ability to make changes in Saudi Arabia. But why does Saudi Aramco need financing his thing? I don't understand. But I thought it was a dumb question. But it's because it is it is literally gushing raising ten billion dollars. They make that in five minutes late. What why do they need to issue on? So why do they need to pay interest when they're pretty much just taking cash out of the ground every minute of the day. So yes, so few reasons one because they want to diversify their funding. Sources part of the reason that they were initially going to be listing part of Saudi Aramco was because they want to diversify the funding. Sources so Saudi Aramco itself doesn't need any funding because it's just this gusher of cash the Saudi Royal family, the Saudi government has basically one main funding source, which is Aramco and they want a different funding source, which is something else. But I don't understand how Saudi Aramco issuing a bombed. Changes that because the Saudi Royal family still only gets we'll money from Saudi Aramco because the issue is that. Yes, right now, they are getting money because Saudi Aramco is simply just basically generated revenue profit. But I also just one thing I wanna point out when you're looking at how much cash generating you have to also look at how that is related to oil prices because they were basically barely breaking even when you had oil prices significantly lower. So this is the issue. This is not a I do understand. I genuinely do understand that the Saudi government wants to be able to get money from somewhere of him Saudi Aramco. And if they could sell stock in Saudi Aramco and use the proceeds to buy we'll know some of assets, I understand that as well. What I don't understand is how Saudi Aramco issuing a bond in any way diversifies the Saudi government funding in one the Saudis actually does have other means of accessing capital because obviously there are bonds on the market from. The government. But the issue here is it is about diversifying Saudi Aramco's funding sources because when they're looking forward and they're saying, okay. What do we think is going to happen to the amount of oil that is going to be consumed? They're looking and they're saying, okay. We're thinking we're gonna hit peak oil in like ten fifteen years they want to start at diversified company. And that's part of the reason this this is different day. Now, you'll saying when talking about the government diversifying funding soliciting what we're talking about Aramco saying like we don't need funding right now because we just gushing cash. But at some point, we might hit peak oil prices might go down or something something something, and that point it would be useful for us to have a stake in petrochemical industry, which is still pretty oil-based. But whatever. And so what we're gonna do is we're going to take the proceeds from this bond and put it into a petrol chemical company, which I kind of understand that as well accept full as I say, they don't need to bone because they get that ten billion dollars. Just out of the ground about, you know, seventeen seconds while now. Like right now the the Saudi Arabian tire Kadhamy is essentially based mostly on this one company. So they want to make this more sustainable. This also has to do with who currently the they are by their they're raising this bond so that they can buy this stake in this petrochemical company. And the reason they're doing that is because the petrochemical company is owned by the private of the public investment fund, so willing what this is. And I realize like this is making any okay. The issue is they are raising a bond so that they can buy the stake in which is owned by their sovereign wealth fund feels like money just going around in circles, it is part of it your completely right? And part of the reason that this becomes so confusing and talking about is that the government is that the company is because granted when you're talking about this type of economy, it is so hard to draw these lines. But this is basically the way for them to get more funding who's they this is the way I would say I'm gonna say Mohammed bin Salman because he is like the person who was behind all of this. Okay. He wants to get more money into the public investment fund. So that it can be funding. A lot of the things that he wants to be investing in terms of creating more entertainment knowing you're right. And you're completely right? So in terms of he wants to build this tourist industry in this entertainment industry. Also because he's trying to have the Saudi fixation of the economy. So with has that doing this is going to create all these? Jobs. So I think the big picture hit like we can get hung up on you know, where the money is moving around in circles. But the big picture is that what he's doing with this bond is he's bringing money in from outside the country that up until now the only real way that Saudi Arabia got money coming into Saudi from outside the country was by selling oil. Now, he he's selling different thing selling bones. Now the bone to ultimately backed by oil. So it's not that different. But he's getting exactly he's getting another funding stream of financial investors, buying financial instruments that money is going into his pockets. And that explains why David Solomon, the CEO of Goldman Sachs is in Saudi like more or less as we speak right now like chumming with them and making friends and because he's like, oh, great. Now, you guys bond issue. Is you issue suffering? Von Niagara issue. Ramco bonds, you're going to become part of the global economy. You're going to become more integrated. And just imagine the with profits goldman-sachs can make by doing this. And as Emily is just sitting here with a look absolute disgust on Heff as skiing, but these guys are just it just people's anyone remember non Gerard arrest was with us. It wasn't that long ago. We the Saudis we're having this big, you know, Davos in the desert conference and all the banks made a big show of saying, we're not going because everyone was so outraged that they had killed a journalist cash Shoghi, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people in killed in Yemen. And yeah. And now it's like they're like, look how rich we are. And Goldman Sachs's like awesome. And like everything's okay. Can we also just mentioned just because it ought to be dropped in here somewhere? They spent four hundred fifty million dollars on fake Leonardo now seem to have lost. It like literally fell down the back of diplomacy to the Lou in the Lou, well, we're having a Leonardo show could we? Have this painting in the late. Yeah. About that painting. The only thing I could think of I mean, they said in their financial statement that you know, they laid out their risks in climate change is obviously this can't go on this won't go on. Right. And they're they're a one trick pony. So I mean this country is this obscene wealth. It's not going to last. Yeah. Mean, it'd be a bad ending the it is definitely it does appear that you know, if they want to have any type of economy, country instability. That's the issue too. Because part of the reason they've been able to maintain stability as long as they have is because you have cradle-to-grave benefits, you have people who basically don't have to work or show about their jobs. And the problem is all of a sudden, you're not as profitable down the line. And you haven't done anything prior to that to set yourself up. You're going to have tremendous instability. I mean, I think I'm with Emily on this. Tremendous, instability is pretty much certain no matter what happens is talking about previous guesses. David Wallace wells. We'll tell you most of Saudi Arabia is actually. Going to be uninhabitable police in I mean, that's a kind of problem right that and last thing I'll say is that another reason why they're not just going to be like, we're just gonna spend all of our Caterpillar cheat is that the don't have enough cash on their balance sheet. I'm pretty sure to fund the whole Savak. But there they plan on acquiring a number of other firms. This is supposed to be just the beginning. They already have they can do. That is. Tangled web. Discussed so many like Britsh people problem evil empire. Kind of stuff. Did we not? Evil empire. I feel it. We should just wrap this up. Basically, I think we can agree. I mean, I can we agree. The in terms of evil empires. Saudi Saudi is west and Murdoch Medoc his west basis easy. Yes, that's true. Because murdoch. I mean, they haven't yet just member. There's no bones. He's not torturing female right back to bait. Like did the Australian media kind of influence the New Zealand shooter, but that's not the same as again the bone saw. Right. So. Yeah. There you go. It's good. They shins of evil. So we don't even Jeff as as evil. He's just he's just very like swo-. Where would the Sackler fit in from last week where a good question cyclists civilised the Saudis, right definitely more evil than bazars. But how do they competitive? That's a really good question. I feel like the Murdoch's have really created global instability in a way. But then I mean, the Sackler is a lot of people are dead. It's true. But it's if you look at speeding into the instability as well. Right, but George W Bush president without the Murdoch family, and then all the people who died, right? I'm just saying that's more more counterfactual. That's basically all we're doing. This is the real Forbes thinking don't rank billion as by how many billions they have ranked them by how much blood they have on their home. This is very much like the good place, which I've been watching where everyone gets points based on how good or bad. They are like how would we issue points? Too bad billionaires do an index about it axios would do that. Although the Rennie, exactly. Who's the goodest billionaire who who's like the the most negative thinks? He's he's the goodest. Gogo Scott to be Bill Gates. He he's with the mosquitoes years, in fact, actually done a tremendous amount of good good. We haven't released mosquitos yet. He's developed them the release. There's a whole at some point at some point. I'm going to do a very very deep dive into the bioethics mosquitoes. But I don't know if that's gonna make it onto slate money. Maybe it will let us know on slate money as late dot com. If the bioethics mosquitoes is something which you want to talk about because it is something I'm fascinated by in some point, Michael specked is going to have a book out, and we can talk to him about it. Let's have a numbers round. Can I go first? Okay. Yes. You at the same. Six hundred million pounds six hundred million pounds. Brexit Brexit number. So Goldman Sachs came out, and they said this is the amount of money per week that the British economy has lost since the Brexit vote six hundred million pounds per week. Didn't they argue that by leaving the EU they can get three hundred and fifty million pounds? What was it month something for the NHL? Yeah. Didn't happen. Yeah. The latest on Brexit as of this recording. I mean who knows, but it looks like I mean, you know, this time we very pessimistic. And I thought we were like in the crash out on April the twelve this coming Friday with no deal. Now, amazingly Theresa May seems to have conceded that we Brits are gonna have to have European elections on may the twenty third and that was something she was adamant that she would not do now. She's like, well, I guess maybe we might have to have European elections. Once we have European elections. And we've elected people to the European parliament. It looks like the the UK could stay in the EU for a while if not forever just drag it out to drag drag it out until you confirmatory public vote or something and then confirmatory public. We'll say no way we want to remain than we remain. And then we'll just lost a few billion quid, and it will be fine. What's gonna Bramley? My number is seventy million dollars. Speaking of billionaires and inherited wealth. That's how much money Abigail Disney. Who's the granddaughter of ROY Disney says she's given away since she became an adult in this really cool interview with her on the cut where she talks about like what it's like to have a lot of money. A super interesting interview. She does remind me a little bit of like, my hypothetical idea of MacKenzie basis. She says in the interview if she wanted to be a big that she could have been in that. But like who wants to be a billion? And so like, I'm just not going to she's one of these people who has a pretty clear idea in her mind of of Basie asking the question. Do I want twice as much money as I have right now, an onslaught by saying, no, yeah. And I think almost every human there is an amount where having twice as much money as that. There's like negative marginal value to that extra money. And the only question is where is that amount? And the Jeff Bezos is one of the very. Very few humans who there is basically no amount where he wouldn't want twice as sometimes this. This is my theory is it's a misunderstanding of the the issue with a lot of these very very wealthy people usually men is that it's not about at a certain point. It's not about the money. It's about winning. That's what it about having more than someone else. It's about winning. So in that sense. There is a significant margin life. It's not that money itself. Yeah. He just wants. On the list it's like playing video game. And you'll point you want more coins than the other person. Exactly. And perhaps he would actually be happier. If he had seventy billion dollars, but the second richest men in the world only had twenty billion then if he had one hundred fifty in the richest had two hundred and fifty a lot of research about this. How happy you are about the mount of money. You have is all about how much your neighbors have around you in this Jeff is concerned. His neighbor is Bill Gates. I mean, they both live close to each other in Washington. Yeah. My number is nine hundred eighty nine thousand five hundred dollars. I know at this number is, I think I think what is it? What is it is if the amount that the dad paid to the fencing coached by his house gets into Harvard result and he never lives in the house career half as much. So the house was appraised at five hundred forty nine thousand three hundred and this doting dad who already had one son in Harvard. Was a big fencing fan decides that he's going to buy the fencing. Coach's house for rather more than five hundred forty nine thousand three hundred in fact, he's going to buy it for nine hundred eighty nine thousand five hundred dollars because he felt sorry for the coach because the coach was living twelve miles away from Harvard, and it was a long commute especially in the winter. And and so this would allow the coach to move closer and that would make life better. And and he's you know, a big fan of fencing. So that's what he wanted and by sheer coincidence, his second son winds up getting accepted into Harvard through the fencing program and everything works out Copacetic everyone, and then of course, he never actually lives in this house. He tend to around and sells it for muchness bullet for a few months later. You know, what's money among fans, we're going to start seeing more and more of these stories come out. Now, I feel like probably are really digging for them in the wake of blew my favorite thing is if it's a long story in the Boston Globe, which is worth reading. But. Yeah. You should read it through to the very end. Because it turns out that the way that the Boston Globe found out about this story was that when the house came on the market the second time, I actually on the open market and the dad was selling it because the hell was he meant to do with it a couple of home flippers look at it. And they were like this is a fixer upper because it was really bad shape. Now, we're good at fixing up homes. We can buy cheap flip it for profit. And then they realize how much she was asking. And then they realize the we'd certainly been Selva almost a million dollars. Now like, this is just weird. None of this makes any sense. And then when the whole gusty blue scandal came out, they were like now, it makes sense. And they phoned up the Boston Globe and told them and Boston Globe, the tip from the flippers from the would-be flippers a great story. So thank you all home flippers out there for giving us journalists. Hot tips. Thank you for everyone. Especially just mean, Molly fit producing today. Thank you for listening to sleep money. Do keep the emails coming slate money at slate dot com next week. We have an amazing episode because we have Natalie Jurisco who if you don't know who Natalie Jurisco is she's kind of this nation. She's an amazing woman used to be the finance minister of Ukraine. She is now running the financial oversight board in Puerto Rico. She has restructured more sovereign and quasi-government debt than most of us have had late hot dinner, and she is just an awesome Pessina toll to-to and soup. Investing peasant. Hus- story is amazing. And we're gonna talk about we'll manner of Walsum infesting things I'm going to be in Washington with heavy old. It'd be hanging out at the IMF ring meetings, and that's coming up next week on sleep money.

Mr. Jeff Bezos Rupert Murdoch Saudi Aramco Goldman Sachs Saudi Royal family Saudi Arabia Amazon Murdoch family Fox News FOX United States MacKenzie founder apple Emily peck Lachlan Fox Australia Roger Ailes CEO
Why Is America Still Friends with Saudi Arabia?

The Good Fight

56:14 min | 3 months ago

Why Is America Still Friends with Saudi Arabia?

"It's one thing to speak your mind at a newspaper in. Saudi. Arabia. Is another thing to do it at the Washington Post in America in the capital, it was a profound lever power that suddenly had been given to persons who wasn't afraid to speak out. He became a force in a way that no other journalists and ever. In Saudi Arabia. And now, the good fight with Josh. Among. My name is Matt Lots I. Am a professor of Law, stiffy will university and I am a contributing writer for persuasion I WanNa talk a little bit about my article rhetorical. Calvin. Ball Rhetorical Kallenbach article was inspired by the controversy over the Harper's letter that was published several months ago with there is two sides of this debate where some people are coming out in favor of free speech and other people are coming out against free speech I thought that that was not The right way to frame the bait people who are on the liberal left the locusts, the practitioners of the successor ideology whatever you WanNa call that they're responding with speech. The thing they're just responding with weird in different kinds of speech they weren't playing by the same rules a rational debate that most people who are involved in public discourse try to play by their doing another game, which is a game that I called. Rhetorical Calvin. Ball is based on a game that the. Protagonists in Calvin and Hobbes play the what I call a Meta game or it's a game about the game. The way that you win is by changing the rules on your opponent to make it so that whatever you are doing win counts as winning whatever they are doing counts as losing when you are arguing with someone who is a practitioner of the successor ideology than it feels like you're playing rhetorical. Calvin Ball. It feels like they're changing the rules out from underneath. You and making it so that whatever you try to do to win the debate actually is a penalty on new and not a penalty on them when you're running out correctly that they are making some bad irrational moves in the debate for instance, one of the irrational rules of debate is you should attack the argument not the other person if I give you an argument and there's a problem with it that you show what the problem with my argument is you don't. Call me a bad person for making that argument right? You attack the ardennes not the person you attack the person not the argument that's called the Ad Hominem fallacy you commit the Ad Hominem fallacy. I should be able to point out. No, no no, that's an Ad Hominem you're tackling the person not the argument. That's bad. You're not playing by the rules but if You're debating with a practitioner of the successor ideology. Then they're not going to accept that they're not going to admit that they have committed a penalty. They've committed a foul they're going to instead accuse you of trying to silence them and thereby score their own point by changing the rules. Another one of the rules of rational debate is to correctly represent the other person's argument. If you misrepresent my argument when you're attacking I, get to point out that that's not what I said. That's not the argument that I was making. This is the straw man fallacy some of these people at the accused them of committing the straw man fallacy they're going to respond that they are just saying what your argument needs to them, and if you're accusing them of committing Straw man fallacy, your denying their truths, and now of course, the penalties again on new. Is Of course understandable that people would want to change the rules of debate in order to make themselves in better position to win after all, there's lots of important issues going on in societies days people who are on the left are arguing for some causes that they feel perhaps correctly are very, very important and it might seem not for overly Genteel to insist on rules of Oxford debate. This is why Calvin Invents Calvin Ball in the comic in the first place, he wants to have fun he wants to win, but he's not having fun and he's not winning his playing by the normal rules. So he makes up new rules that he can have fun with, and then he can win with. But it's important to remember why we play by his rules of debate in the first place it's because these rules of debate are needed or discovering the truth. We often think of debate on an antagonistic model, but a better model is a what's known as an agonise. Dick. Model in an agonised stick competition there is competition by both participants are really working together to achieve some larger goal in sports. The two different sides are going to compete, but they're really working together for some larger goal. There is an essential cooperative nature to the competition. And this is why we have these rules of rational debate. The goal is that we present the best arguments on both sides. And arrive at the truth the reason why the AD hominem fallacy is a fallacy is because personal characteristics or the personal virtues or vices of the person making the argument don't affect whether the argument is a good argument or not it either supports inclusion or dozen. So stick to the argument because that's the only way you're going to get to the truth. Similarly for the Straw man balancing the reason why you need to stick to the argument that I actually made and not the argument that you would like to attack. The only way that we're going to get to the truth is by considering the best arguments on either side, not the arguments that are easiest to attack the ultimate goal that a lot of people haven't political debate is justice or A. More purpose society, but you're not going to get to a more just more purpose society. If you are building your political ideology on a falsehood on a lie, a noble is still lie. You cannot build a just society on a web of falses. If you really care about a more just or perfect society, you need to understand the way. The world actually is and work within the bounds of reality. Which means we have an understanding of the way. The world actually is with means we need to engage in processes directed at truth rather than simply victory. Matlab says piece called Rhetorical Calvin Ball. It's published by persuasion to learn more about the community were building persuasion and to get similar articles directly into your inbox had to www dot persuasion dot community. This conversation made me feel terribly unaccomplished I have been speaking to Lawrence Right. He is a staff writer Advani Yorker. The executive producer of a great new documentary movie called the Kingdom of silence about Saudi Arabia. He has written a thriller about a pandemic which takes over in the Middle East was released a terrible time in April of this year he's a real pov we spoke about tragic murder of dramatic Shoghi. The window provides into U. S. Saudi relationship but also about many other topics how he has been able to find interesting topics time and again about scientology about twin studies and debate of nature versus nurture. There's a lot in Jim. Lawns right. Welcome to the PODCAST. Thank you. Good to be with you. So you've just helped produce and do Stein a documentary about America's relationship with Saudi Arabia and the life of Jamaica Shoghi with as much interesting national complicated. Then I realize actually you I met Jomo Kashogi many decades ago. How did you end up becoming friendly with Kashogi and making this documentary? Nine eleven is really what started it because. I decided to write about that event and became a looming tower and I had to go to Saudi Arabia. And the Saudis wouldn't let me yet. They weren't letting any reporters in for the most part. So I got a job as an ex pat worker, which is something that were still allowing but my job was mentoring young reporters in Geneva. Bin Laden's hometown. And it was great I mean much better than being a reporter there, and moreover ahead, all these young reporters I could assign stories that I'm wondering about things I wanted to know but you know reporting in Saudi Arabia as his true and much of the Arab world is not what we think of is reporting. You know there are things you can't write. You can't write about the government you can't write about the royal family. You can't her about religion takes a lot of your plate, but there was one reporter in the whole country who actually was a true reporter and that was democracy. It I'm not saying that He. Went outside the boundaries but he actually reported and that's how he made his name. He went Afghanistan and reported on the jihad against the Soviets. Over, he wasn't afraid to speak out. You know one thing about living in a tyranny is it turns people in the cowards and Jomo was not a coward of he was cautious. Sometimes you know but he would tongue thought. And I was eager to meet him and he was working for a competitive newspaper are better than the one I worked for. So I arranged to go over and talk to them and I found out right away. He's a great guy I just really enjoyed his he had a great sense of humor and we got along very well. That's when we met. It was in February two thousand three and then about a month after we met Jamal Gut but pointed editor of this paper in Southern Arabia called a Latin is in a sear which was where a lot of the i Jagger's came from. And I went down to visit him there. It was the same week that we invaded Iraq. And it was very strange to me because every Saudi I met with fiercely opposed to that except for Jamal. and to tell us a little bit about his ideological evolution because he was a strong supporter of the fight against the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan and he actually ended up being with close to Osama bin Laden at that time, and then I guess within fifteen timespan, you know Osama bin Laden becomes critical notice of the United States but also of Saudi government with Saudi Royal Family and Kashogi at that point is in very standing we were Saudi government and actually is one of the few Saudis who really seems to support America's invasion of Iraq. So tell us a little bit about sort of. Ideological turnabout some coherence to that as best some through line there how Kashogi get to that point. I guess you know Y'all should we talk about Jamaa, we're talking about a person who's in constant evolution. That's one of the things that I think really marks him. It makes his story. So interesting and they're really kind of three points along the Jihad. There is nine eleven and the spring. Those are the three acts of Jamaica Show Shoji's drama. And both Jamal and bin Laden were in the Muslim brothers when they were young, which was an underground organization very dangerous in Saudi Arabia. So they came out of radical orientation as they had that in common the. Dean are fighting in Afghanistan and bin Laden goes. And Jamal meets in there and he's acting as real journalist. He's Ryan about a Saudi Jamal is being a war correspondent. To some extent, maybe to a large extent, Jamal burnished the legend of Osama bin Laden a Saudi. Not a print but prince lane who is in Afghanistan helping the Muslim 'cause. It made bin Laden famous. It turned him into a celebrity, which is a category they never had in Saudi Arabia Arabia is the royal family and everybody else, and there was this disruptive figure of Bin Laden when he came back to a kingdom and the other thing is Jamal had a voice he discovered did. He had a voice which was an iffy proposition in Saudi Arabia because the prince's own all the newspapers they own all the cable outlets, they of the newspapers in the whole. Arab. World you know. So they control the narrative and here is someone who has begun to build an independent constituency and so not only was bin Laden a- volatile element inside Saudi Arabia. Jamal. was to in his own way. But at that stage, right in the two thousands Kashogi and in video a separate ways which save at. Standard. Not becomes very diverted critic of a Saudi royal family as well. But Kashogi actually starts to take on government functions. Right becomes a spokesman for the government in London then in Washington DC. So you explain to me I guess Kashogi. Reasons for supporting the Saudi. Royal Family Supporting the United States were supporting Berezin in Iraq and then he stopped to fall out with royal family have a time of the Arab spring which has posed sets the stage for his gruesome murder later on. Win Bin Laden went to Sudan in ninety two to ninety six. You know Jamal was critical of al-Qaeda and he had distanced himself from Osama but the royal family sent him to Sudan to try to woo bin. Laden back to the Kingdom and get him to shut up about the king. He was talking trash and they were very upset with him and they promised to pay him a lot of money. If you just come back and settled down and that was the message that Jamal took to Khartoum, and you know bin Laden never consented to that that may be the last time that Jamal and bin Laden saw each other and then you know even as early as two thousand three when I was in Saudi Arabia the first time and he was editor of Wotton. was trying to enlarge the space of public discourse and he something that you'd have to understand the context of Saudi Arabia. A cartoon. This was just one of many things but it's really struck me there was a cartoon of a suicide bomber and it was a cleric. and. Instead of dynamite in pockets of the vest there were thought was this was outrageous because it was seen as a strong criticism of a cleric Oh. Yeah. I mean he was crossing a red line not just criticizing making fun of absolutely taboo and the editor of the newspaper I worked for call me out in the hall because they think that they're officer bugged. And he said, you know your friend Jamal, the word is he's going to be killed. This is two thousand three and was the first time I heard that he was under a death threat. Then about a year later I think I was in the United States and. I got a call from Jamal and he was in danger he needed to get out of the country and I arranged for Columbia Journalism School to take him on an adjunct professor. So I had a spot for him if he needed it but. That point Prince Turki Al. Faysal put Jamal under his wing. He was spokesperson for the London Embassy were Turkey was the ambassador and then to? So you know Jamal had protection and the royal family offered him at that point. But you know he had already been very critical of bin Laden. So he was in a space where he was moving away. Never became a heretic, but he moved away from the kind of radical position of his us. He never became a royal family back totem I mean the thing about Jamal is he was between everything it was between Bin Laden in the Royal. Family. Is Between Saudi Arabia in America. it was just in a unique position. There were very few people may be no other people that had the reach that he did. Not Apprentice of some sort. So I guess then inventory thousands Kashogi. It's strange position where he starting to really provoke religious extras who starting to provoke the clerical astonishment that we could danger but he was a has protection of at least parts, royal family and his spokesman for the Saudi government. So I suppose Vendor Third Act starts with the Arab spring, which could Shoghi enthusiastically embraced and understanding is that at that point, he loses a lot of that protection. How does he go from being quite close to the Saudi family of parts of it to embracing recent inspiring movements around the Arab world that challenge not play and what then is the actual instigate to office? Oyi said that it is twenty nineteen when the Arab spring long past that by what appearances highest levels of the Saudi royal family decide to have him killed. Well. Start, with the fact that Jamal had a mission early on which was to enlarge the space of free speech in Saudi, Arabia can't call it free speech looking say enlarge the space for speech at all and that's what he tried to do a wotton. He was actually hired there. Twice I think the second time he lasted for less than a week. And then under one of the Princes Principal Ali g was offered the job of starting a new news channel, Ara, and Harry, some of the best journalists in the whole Arab world it lasted for less than an hour. It was shut down immediately and that shows you that there is no space for free talk in Saudi Arabia and very discouraging to Jamal anyone back to the kingdom. It was writing for a high yacht, which is the largest pan-arab newspaper and that was taken away and so finally they shut down his twitter account. And he called me a point. And he said things have never been worse. They've taken away my right to speak at all and he was afraid for his life with all the threats hit endured on his life in the seventeen years that I knew him I never heard him be afraid and he was afraid and he realized he was GonNa have to make a break and that meant leaving his family uprooting himself from his country and trying to find a on his own there was no royal protection any longer so he came to America and it was so fortuitous that he found a job at Washington Post now I'll talk been at about that now get back to the spring. Is One thing to speak your mind at a newspaper in Saudi Arabia is another thing to do it at the Washington Post. In America in the capital, it was a profound lever of power that suddenly had been given to a person who wasn't afraid to speak out. So the threat he posed for I guess a perception of Saudi Arabia in west and in the capital of the United States. Just had increased dramatically and that sort of increased the dangerous Lehem direct way. Yeah he became a force in a way that no other journalists had ever been in Saudi Arabia and also his views it changed. And it was the Arab spring that suddenly galvanized Jamal. Think he had a lot of inchoate ideas about where you could go. What kind of progress you might be able to make in the Arab world. Then suddenly they are world on fire in all these young people are demanding change and it drew from something inside him that he realizes that something it always yearned for but never expected that it could be made a real -bility and so he became wholeheartedly engage with the Arab spring. and. You know the Saudis actually help the government shutdown expressions of changing tough rear quarter. You know the back CC and they squashed because they didn't want it to get anywhere close to the kingdom and I think at that point, there was no place for Jamal a more in Saudi Arabia. So what do we know about what ultimately instigated the mode of Kashogi why was it in twenty nineteen and what's the evidence headwind orderly to atop which meant by twenty nineteen to Mohammed Bin Salman? I, think there were several things that were going on same time. One was giral had his purchased power which was very threatening and then you know the other thing is that NBS came into power the last time I saw Jamal, I had arranged for us to have a little conversation at the University here in Austin Texas where I live And frankly I was perplexed because to me NBS seemed like a reformer and a lot of the changes that young people that I had worked with in Saudi Arabia Yearn for movies, women driving and so on. NBS was giving him those things. So that's what I saw. But what Jamal saw was that the people that were advocating for the very reforms that were being enacted were being persecuted. And the women drivers for instance, you know thrown in prison without any charge torture. For advocating, they're still in prison for advocating the very changes, the NBA enacted. So it took me a while to understand, but there's a concept in sociology called the King's paradox, which is the more the tyrant releases power the more the demand is for more changes and I think this is N. B. S. strategies to have on the one hand the process of liberalization in on L. Aside a crackdown on freedoms, and they're only be one person advocating for reform is constant with the idea that there's only one voice that speaks in the kingdom. Is he so he wants to actually liberalize country in certain respects, but he wants to one granting liberalisation and he's not going to tolerate any grassroots moms is that what you're saying? Yes, in I think also assured. For the crime itself. I think there are two things going on one. I. Think they thought it was perfect. They had a plan. They thought was bulletproof not only where GONNA cut him up, dissolve his body in acid, which is what I think they did. They had some look alike who is gonNA put on his clothes you. Know who could say that you know that the Saudis had anything to do? But the other part of it was Jamal would be missing and everybody would suspect the count prints of ordering it. But it'd be no evidence. So it was the best of both worlds the you have a sense that you don't cross. NBS. But there'd be no evidence to fairly accused him unfortunately didn't realize that the Turks had the embassy. Filmed in. So they they had no idea how totally penetrated they were were it not for that? I think this whole crime probably would have been in some ways forgotten because there'd be no way dependent on anybody. While problem with puff crimes that usually thinking about something, but it's striking, but it wouldn't occur to people at the highest level of government that the embassy may be under surveillance I mean in Vada ready to the obvious thing to think of as a possibility. Well. When knuckleheads are carrying out the crime. They might make some mistakes. It's Sorta hard for me to talk about as you know what I consider what they did to a such a fine man in a courageous fellow is just very galling and you know I would love to see some kind of accountability. There's not gonNA be. The only people that can enforce a change or NBS is cousins, and if it happens that the cost of having this guy in power is too great change will come but they too are all challenged by him. So you documenting the Mossad silence Tokes not just about. Really Fascinating and tragic story of Jamaica show. It really tries to understand the US Saudi relationship through his life and times away. So why don't we step back a moment because this is something where to somebody who's foreign policy expertise is more based on Europe and other countries in Asia has always puzzled me, which is to say the United States and Saudi Arabia are in so many obvious ways. Opposites Fan. So many obvious ways not natural partners at all and yet they have had for forty fifty years of very strong and close partnership. which presidents who come in being very clinical of relationship end up perpetuate because clearly some constellation of mutual interest but makes it very compelling. So explain to us why it is that states and Saudi Arabia, our allies. And how that Stranger Lyons has been able to last for. So long despite all the obvious reasons why one might wish when the case? You know I kind of consider Saudi Arabia like America's foster child is started is inactive charity. There was an error to toilet manufacturing. Organization. The I've forgotten the name, but you still see them on your nose every once in a while but this fellow went to Saudi Arabia. and. It was in the thirties and it was incredibly impoverished and he met the king and. The king was grateful for his kind words about the incipient kingdom and the American said is is something that I can do for you and he said, you know what we need is water. It must be some water somewhere in this desert. No. If you could send a geologist, try to help us and so. Geologist lists sent and did a survey of the Kingdom and he came back to the he said I've got good news and bad news bad news water good news lots of oil loss of oil and. People think of Saudi Arabia is being. Conservative in slow to change but you have to realize what happened in the next couple of decades. There were people who is some of them living you getting their pro team from eating insects. To owning yachts in, you know hanging out in the Mediterranean and shopping on the show Salita. This happened within a few years for many of it was a total cultural shift in no country perhaps his changes rapidly and profoundly a Saudi. Arabia did in that time and why was it important to his after that will mainly the main thing was Saudi Arabia head all this oil war came along and the importance of oil became far more apparent and after the war everybody was driving cars and keeping the price of gas lows important from a geopolitical point of view there was Europe it was far easier to. Get that oil from Saudi Arabia to Europe. And as long as America's trying to protect seaways, we had a block on the Soviets, there was oil from another source Russia's, of course, in some of the former provinces were pretty oil rich themselves. So there was a counterweight but now the reason is for our relationship with Saudi Arabia are beginning to fray. The price of oil is low America became the leading oil exporter for wild before the crash we'll see what happens when the sun comes out again but Israel is strong certainly the strongest power in the Middle East. So we don't feel quite as threatened for. Say and oil is disappearing from the future. You've been Saudi Arabia's building solar cells, nuclear power plants, they have the most abundant oil imagine. So Why have this relationship in the future I? Think my feeling about it Yasha is in Saudi Arabia is going to need our help I've forecast a very troubled time for Saudi Arabia soon because. As, long as the price of oil stays low and I think it's going to stay low for a long time and maybe we'll never regain his heights. Saudi Arabia can't afford to be kind of welfare state that the principal created to mollify the population. And is GONNA come to a point where people are going to ask what do we need this royal family for? They're not giving us what we expected. And that's a crisis moment for the country in Saudis are frightened of revolution. Many will talk to you about their fear of tribal warfare which was. SORT. Of before there was the royal family there was you know tribe against tribe and I don't know if that's a likely outcome, but it could be, and then if you look at the revolutions that have taken place in their neighborhood in Iran and Yemen, and Libya and. Iraq you know they turn out pretty badly. So I think the Saudis are right to be anxious about what kind of future might await them without the royal family they have. Of course, ironically, one of the reasons why turned out badly was influenced from Saudi Arabia for receivers many other reasons to what would you recommend to an incoming Biden administration in terms of its relationship to Saudi Arabia I imagine especially as as offenders democracy some accountability for what happened to him. So it's very hard to imagine how that. Might be one beyond. Stooges knuckleheads as you call them carried out of your operation being punished. which I suppose is some form of satisfaction but the likelihood that the people are audited will be held accountable seems extremely low. The country continues to be very different from us in terms of values in terms of its treatment of women in terms of treatment of dissidents in terms of the amount of personal freedom it allows and yet it is not as you're saying and the interest of the United States. To either destabilize Saudi Arabia or potentially push it in a direction where it. Encourages terrorism were actively then even it has in the past. So how could sort of an administration that looks at this with the rights of the values try and balance is incredibly difficult mix of considerations. The number one thing is stopped selling arms to Saudi Arabia. You know it's made us complicit in this total war crime, which is the war in Yemen Ruben refueling the bombers that are destroying all these citizens and just stop that make sure that members of the Royal Family realized that there is a reputational costs to keeping S in power. It's not our place to try to engineer. Coup is our place to express our displeasure with the current situation and to some extent I don't think that we need to be engaged in the Middle East anymore you know the Middle East is a very difficult place to reform and may be better if we just withdraw interest altogether and let them sort it out because you know. I think we've acted as enabler and allowed this to go on in his dismal progress for too long in case us in what happens. The lesson I learned from living in the Middle East is things can always get worse and trying to help sometimes doesn't help at all. So I think is better for us to pay attention to things that we can change and make better. I don't know if we can do that in the Middle East. As, a good fight listener I know you are committed to understanding what it means to live in a democracy and how we can all work together to preserve and promote democratic ideals. My name is Janice Bonelli and I'm the founder of podcast network called the democracy. A collection of shows devoted to democracy civic engagement, and the free expression of ideas. Our member shows include another way by Lawrence lessig solutions, journalism podcast how do we fix it and swamp stories from issue one which looks at political reform through a conservative. Lens. If you enjoy the conversations, you hear on the good fight I know you'll enjoy our shows to you can find more information about the network and our member shows at democracy group Dot Org. Again, that's democracy group Dot Org. Moving on from the tragic and depressing topic of the US relationship and Dhammika Shoghi to the tragic and depressing topic of the pandemic. Because your problem of who thinks about many different things and rights work in many different formats, you had a novel kind of realize booze called the end of October which was published on April Twenty Eighth of twenty twenty. But obviously written well before that about global pandemic, the Middle East as it happens what surprises you. About. COVID nineteen given but he had fought about what global pandemic might look like and how it might affect society's what did you never will predict and what left you surprised now that it has come to your own country rather than to countries in the Middle East. The latest surprise from me is one of the people who get the virus in my novel is the president. It doesn't turn out well for the president. In the novel you know my virus is much more mortal. The virus covid nineteen is much more contagious. I underestimated some things I miscalculated how willing individuals would be to isolate themselves for long periods of time and a great personal cost in impoverished by, and I certainly underestimated the resilience of the stock market. On the other hand many things are exactly as I envision them and it's not because impression is because everybody knew what was going to happen the public health people? All knew what would happen they didn't win their play books like the Obama playbook that was passed off to the trump administration. The trump administration itself had a tabletop exercise called Crimson contagion where an American traveler to China comes back and he's coughing and then when he gets home his son goes to a concert and within seven months you know five hundred thousand Americans are dead. Well is not just that that scenario is spookily like the one that we're living it's that you know bear in mind is tabletop exerciser captain it members they're they're the Red Cross what's going to be the problem while there's not enough p they're not enough ventilators. One department doesn't talk to another I mean all the things that happened were envisioned by the trump administration itself so you might think. Dead Win this virus happened. They would have the advantage of knowing the first of all. We can go to the Obama playbook. It's like paint by numbers. You know if this happens call this person, and then also we have the game the wisdom of knowing where our faultlines are. Is as if neither of those things ever happen and that's where I, think I was totally right in the novel that people behave better than I expected but governments especially our own behavior pretty much as I imagine it's interesting but visa prize is a positive one because of his feels like such a depressing time in. So clear how much the government has failed especially, the United States but actually has. been failures in many countries especially at the beginning and in many levels of government envy. United. States, the positive surprises are striking to me. I mean it's surprising. Stock Market is so resilient for sure and it's easy to paint in negative terms, which is to save invest something sort of sociopathic about the stock market and it's terrible things going on but stocks impacted by it that seems to show that. Broken, vow economic system I was more optimistic case to be made, which is that to an surprising extent of economic system itself has proven to be resilient even the United States manage to put in place. Economic Protective measures that have somewhat buffered economic impact throughout society you obviously a lot of people suffering I don't want to underplay that but less. So than we imagine five six months ago and those all of these jokes in March and April that look actually it doesn't turn out to be any better than socialism look at over things for the sold out and out of stock. In Soviet Union but I'm surprised in astounded how limited those things turned out to be for weekly to run on toilet paper a little hard to get toilet paper. But now you can get over told the people you want. You know at the click of a button from Amazon. It's still a little hard to get out to heaters moment, and at some point, in June, it was hard to get standing desks I've been to an amazing extent. Our economic system has been uninfected by that and not just in terms of. Evaluation of some company, but in terms of the ability of people to get food on the table to have an interest in the house to have running water to have all of necessities in Miss Incredibly Complex Society that to me was in supplies know how you feel about that no I agree and in my novel I postulated the Internet goes down and that changed a lot think about where we would be if that happened and then also in the food supply becomes problematic and we've been really lucky in that regard. You know as for the stock market and the economy The stock market and the real economy running in opposite directions and I've been talking to a lot of economists about this in one of my contacts at Goldman. Sachs was talking about how the mission of Wall Street is to take money out of failed enterprises and put it into the companies that we need now and what happened in March was that huge drop in the stock market but also you know the economy went to Hell and then there was this amazing climb back by the stock market and the Goldman Guy said it was the rush to opportunity. And there are companies that are going out of business. They say a third of small businesses in New, York will never come back but that may be true. To Schools on this that I found that go back to Keynes and Hayek Canes. Fill the system with money you have to give the economy, a boost and then. Even, if somebody digging holes it pressing back in the economic system, and then there's Hayek which is let the week things die and it opens up the opportunity for new things to grow. Will both of those things are at play right now and it's is an interplay. Our country is trying to navigate a passed between these two things and the main problem is going to be lower tier workers. Say What you want about the trump administration. It was true that people at the bottom tier of income were making higher wages that last year there really was movement towards increased savings. They actually people in the Lower Quinn till of pay were getting a proportionally higher rates of wages than people in the upper deer higher rates of which increases. Yes. So things were moving in a positive. Direction, but it's exactly those people who are suffering the most and are likely to find that their jobs aren't there when this all comes to an end and they'll jobs for those people will have to be entirely recreated, and moreover there's such as surplus of labor. Now, that is going to be very difficult for a democratic national, the price of labor up because there's a surplus of it. Yeah. It's a fascinating realization about contemporary economy that a huge percentage of middle income and upper income workers turn out to be able to do the work from weather, and so they're not particularly affected by the pandemic and it turns out with all kinds of complex institutions can work perfectly well, perhaps not as well as before but perfectly, well without ever being in. The same place at the same time. Thanks to zoom and inventions you can communicate pretty well, and then as a huge swath of economy where low wage workers tend to be concentrated in, which is not the case you can't serve somebody online you can't produce meat via zoom you can't be an agricultural zoom and so on. So forth since we're talking about predictions. I was struck again in March and April may by the extent to which people predictive at everything will change after corona and I think this is one of the things I myself ride time, which is to say, I, read not for example to say I didn't think globalization is going to end Potisk of Covid nineteen international trade is not doing to end because of Covid nineteen and certain ABC ideas that socializing. Is going to change in a dramatic way but people who no longer have parties because no longer going to be any bars restaurants will not temporarily guard of business, but but people will never want to go back to eating at restaurants that was struck me as pretty nuts and I think at least invasive some of the pandemic extent to which people rushed back to. US. Open -tunities in so far as it was. Possible I think seems to vindicate that I agree with that to some extent but I think Cova nineteen hasn't been like a war on cities, but it has been a war on the idea of cities and here in Austin, we have all his cranes that were in the middle of constructing new office towers. Is a lot of maybe I don't need all that space and I. think that New York in particular is going to suffer from the idea that people don't need to be congregated in place where they were. There are long term consequences that if we can get out of this in the next few months may not be so severe for instance, I work in the theater a lot and I'm very concerned about the future of the theater is a precious place for me. It's been put off most of the plays and some of them scrapped all even next year. So what's going to happen there? I don't know, but you know there's a huge part of the experience of New York. And it could be you know there'll be a tremendous dispersal of arts and business in Salon away from some of the epicenter type places. I think the fires in the West are going to have a similar demographic push. My wife has asthma for instance was she couldn't live almost in any western state right now and how many people have. Their profound changes headed our way but I don't think that is easy to predict them. That's I think where we fall down is it thing? Nobody's going to want to go to a restaurant with no, you're right. People love to go to restaurants I'm in a band for instance, in all the bars are nailed up. I say I'm in a band I used to be in a band I. Don't know if we abandoned anymore. I haven't seen this guy's for months, but you know the urge to get together and play music with my friend is so powerful and I'm sure we'll find a way to do that but it has been a caution and the other thing I think is this is not the last pandemic. I think of covid nineteen is harbinger in since the turn of the Millennium, we've head Bala Niba Zeka. Stars one and murders in the pace is picking up. You know it was unusual to have a new disease. Now, it's not unusual. Now, it can feel that we're being assaulted with one new dangerous virus after another and our capacity to deal with those things. As not really improved that much since the nineteen eighteen flu. So we've only. The breadth of your interests and the breadth of your expertise. You wrote a very influential book about scientology in a very critical book about scientology. Yours have a great book but I'd love to talk about we have the time on twin studies and what twins tell us about human nature and the way that they reshape debate about nature versus nurture been asking me about each of these individual topics I'd love to know a little bit about your process a, how'd you decide what's worth thinking and writing about how often end up being freshened on which of topics to pursue? You decide what kind of medium to engage in since you've done everything from journalism to fiction to documentaries to theater, and how do you actually make pros on whose facts? Well, the hardest part of that question is deciding what to write is a mystery to me honestly, I don't understand were inspiration comes from. I work hard at trying to be inspired. By leaf through magazines, newspapers hungrily looking for new topics that will not just made their million things to write about every newspaper. Every day has something fascinating to write about, but it has to hit a note inside you. It has to ring some bell and usually when I get an idea that I'm going to. Actually, pursue it comes in case in the form you know is like hello, I'm a play ore. Hello. I'm nonfiction article but sometimes you know those things you discover that story can be manifested in many different ways. David remnant gets a new. Yorker, asked me to explain Texas residents. I said Well David Desharnais big question I get paid by the words. Be Happy to answer it. And I wrote the book and I had already written a play about Texas politics in after I wrote the book I'm now working on a musical and Rennick says I ate the whole. Thing is that the idea is the most precious thing you know the form is secondary the the fact that you have encountered a subject that resonates with you. That's the first thing looking back. I realized that I tend to be drawn to exploring worlds that I'd never been in before. You. Know like Scientology using I've written a lot about religion over the years but you know scientology's a peculiar interesting. Ecosystem of humanity and I wanted to know more about it is on my plate forever. But when I approach something like that. I need a way in and usually is a person and I call that person a donkey because it sounds demeaning. But a donkey is a noble beast of burden in you know he can carry the reader into a world. He's never seen and carry a lot of information nod back in my theory is if you care about this person who doesn't need to be a celebrity in fact, that's probably a mistake just a person who inhabits that world. If you care about that person, you'd be far more engaged with the. Information that the writer needs to communicate. So I see a golden opportunity here, which is to kill two birds with one stone to more about the process, and perhaps at these teas, a couple of things that you've worked on. So tell us you know who was donkey to scientology and what is it not learn through them. I waited for the right person when Travolta had his son's death and it seemed like he might be leaving scientology I. Propose to Rim Nick that I write about that and he said is to tabloid. So. He's probably right. But finally than Paul Haggas a two-time Academy Award winning screenwriter director dropped out scientology after three decades. And I thought what I liked about him as a donkey. Is that he had been in it for longtime. He was smart. It was skeptical. He was. Fiercely intelligent. And I thought most readers would read about scientology with a snare on their lips. And I wanted to wipe that off I wanted them to feel threatened you know and also be drawn into the fact that here's somebody who is at least as smart as I am. WHO Dedicated much of his life to serving his judge and why what did he get out of it and so that's why all Haggas also, he was very courageous in speaking to me as were so many people who were later punished so badly by the church. I was really fortunate with Haggas, because he was so perceptive about his own status, he was reflective about it and that's the quality that you really pretty much lead in your donkey. Without running the risk of consultant what was your donkey in between story? Well, it was listed donkey. Then a discovery I have been interested in twin studies. I don't have twins twin, but the idea that there would be somebody else out there. That is genetically you I. Mean It's not you but it's as you as anything else can be and you know I I had twin friends in school and stuff like that, and I uncovered a study that was done. It was an obscure study, but it was about two girls that were in the study named amy and Beth and they were identical twins. They were adopted at birth into separate families. And one family was very dysfunctional. And free to her as a kind of outsider and the other was extremely accepting the mother even at some point died her own hair to resemble Beth's hair so that Beth would feel more included than. But amy you know wetter bed and she she acted out, she had sexual dysfunctions and. You think well, not surprising given that dysfunctional family Beth was even worse. So wait a minute. You know these are all supposed to be things that the environment. Has Something to say, but what I found when I studied it more. Is that these girls had been intentionally separated. And that they had been part of a study. Of A perfect study I can understand Dr Peter, Neubauer, who was the head of the Freud archives was the genius behind this. I can understand why he would be drawn to creating a study where twins of purposely separated at birth. So you can study the interplay of genes, I the environment without the conflicting problem of having the actual family there. So. That was that was what drew me to it if Anna Stanford study correctly, it was obviously unethical to separate these calls in order to study them. It was the perfect study in the sense that it proved very strong point nature versus nurture. But man as the people who set up the study expected but life comes to these two girls would end up being widely divergent and it turned out to be quote unquote perfect study in the opposite way to what they had hoped. That's probably why the study has never been released. Know it's been locked up in the Bina key library for I've gotten win as supposed to be released but. Bear in mind Neubauer was you know he'd been the head of the Freud archives he was a freudian he was in many ways the father of. Psychiatry in America and he had a great investment in showing that the environment was dominant and no is not as it turns out jeans or at least fifty percent of our behavioral in intelligence quotients. So yeah, he must've been pretty dismaying when I began to come in. That's a problem with perfect study might not find what he wants them to. Listen I recommend to all of my listeners to watch the Kingdom of silence and to read the end of October and to follow you wonder for work. Thank you so much for coming on the PODCAST arms. Thank you for having me. I. Look Forward to talking to you again the future. Thank you so much for listening to the good fight listeners have been spreading the word about the show. If you have been enjoying podcast, please be like talk radio show Nigerians tell you all about it. Share on facebook twitter. And finally. Gestures. Awake guests or comments about the show to good fight pod at G MAIL DOT COM. That's good. Pipe hard at G. MAIL DOT com. This recording carries a creative Commons four point -O International license thanks silent partner for their sawing chess pieces.

Saudi Arabia Jamal Gut United States America Bin Laden Royal Family Saudi Arabia Arabia Saudi government Saudi Royal Family Middle East scientology Arabia Saudi government Calvin Ball Jomo Kashogi Washington Post Iraq Afghanistan Kashogi
Streaming Censorship and More Bad Blood | Damage Control (Ep. 557)

Channel 33

41:51 min | 2 years ago

Streaming Censorship and More Bad Blood | Damage Control (Ep. 557)

"Happy new year and welcome to the ringer podcast network. I'm Liz Kelly the NFL playoffs are officially here. And that means tons of coverage upon the site Robert Mays writing about Philip rivers his legacy Danny Kelly discusses Russell Wilson and the Seahawks offense, and Danny hyphen gives us his wild card weekend viewing guide on the pop culture side. We have a live Golden Globes winds pool, featuring Sean Venezia, Amanda Dobbins, Chris Ryan, mica Peters and Kate halal. You can check that out on YouTube. I'm just in charity, and I'm Kate nets. Welcome to damage control on the channel thirty three network. A podcast would be impact with sets excites and divides us in popular culture. It's a new year. Hey time for resolutions time to make positive changes. And hopefully a year to finally stop falling. For weird wellness startups in silicon valley's strange promises, we're going to discuss the story of Ambrosia a company selling transfusions of young blood to people the Huffington Post published an investigation into the company last week. And we're going to talk about how it fits into a larger trend of sketchy wellness company is getting way over hyped, but I wanna talk about the bad blood between the Saudi Royal family and the comedian Husselmann Hodge and it's dragged net flicks. Into the center of an argument over censorship in countries with repressive media regulations such as Saudi Arabia. Facility wants to go prompt prince Mohammad bin soman, aka NBS was hailed as the reformer the Arab world needed. But the revelations about kashogi killing have shattered that image and a blows my mind that it took the killing of a Washington Post journalist for everyone to go. Oh, I guess he's really not a reformer. Meanwhile, every Muslim person, you know, was like, yeah. No shit. He's the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. Key. Are you familiar with us on Manhattan? I know that he is a comedian. But refresh my memory about the specifics. He's a stand up comedian. He is a former daily show correspondent, which I feel like that's where a lot of people would know him from he and he did the White House correspondent center, right? That was like a few years. It was the I believe it was the first Trump era way house correspondent's dinner, and currently he's the host of Patriot Act, which is a show sort of like stand up comedy meets explainer journalism. Daily show journalism show. It's a one man show at least on stage, and it's on Netflix. Basically like Patriot Act is like if the daily show had a host with they didn't have any of the correspondents. And they didn't do the interview segments. And they just the whole show was just sort of a long focused monologue about like the most distressing news items of the week or of the month of the year. And so for the purpose of this story. I just want to note up front that Husayn is an Indian American Muslim. I've seen his comedy live a few times, and he often makes a point of addressing fellow Muslims and fellow Brown people and his comedy can feel it gets sort of discourse global discourse about Islam and about brownies. So that's important because the very first episode of Patriot Act is all about Saudi Arabia, and we I mean you and I have spent a couple of. Damage control talking about Jamal, kashogi and human rights and Saudi Arabia and Mohammed bin Salman, a lot lot going on in Saudi Arabia at the moment right in a lot. That has a lot of Americans paying attention Saudi Arabia at the moment. Well, Hudson uses Jamal kashogi death as a springboard in that series premiere episode of Patriot Act. He uses it as a springboard for this broader exhausted sort of world wind condemnation of this Audi Royal family, right? And specifically he's been a great deal of like this this. I'm going to say it's a fifteen to twenty minutes segment characterizing the Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman as a thug and a fraud. It's harsh it's like, very jokey. But it's also very like the tone of Patriot Act is very late. Hauling any punches totally. So inevitably the Saudi Royal family cited the Saudi Arabia episode of Patriot Act as a violation of basically, there's a public morals provision in Saudi Arabia's cybercrime laws. Can you not talk about the Royal family? It's not just that. It's it's it's even more vague and broad than that, it's like about the Royal family. But it's really specifically worded as public morals. So anything that would would cause like civic or moral panic who right? And that just gets to be interpreted as descent got right dissent against the government against the study world family. So basically the Saudi government pressures net flicks to pull the episode in Saudi Arabia, and that's what Netflix does. They pull the episode in Saudi Arabia, and I think surprisingly quickly people in America complained the cues net flicks. Not mentioned the Saudi government than they cues net. Flicks of censorship. So what was his response like well? Okay. So like responses pretty good. He says clearly the best way to stop people from watching something is to ban it make it trend online, and then leave it up on YouTube. Let's not forget that the world's largest humanitarian crisis is happening in Yemen right now. Please donate. So I yeah. I mean, I think that's sort of like answering the Saudi government, by way of the Streisand effect, right? Yeah. Saudi Arabians Zander pack is Saudi strikes, in fact. Yeah. Yeah. There was an initial tweet. I remember reading and the tweets that have characterized this whole thing is Netflix pulled this episode. And I had watched that about Saudi Arabia, and I was like, whoa. That's crazy. But the wording of the tweet seemed suggest that Netflix taken the episode down. Right. And have like basically retracted which is not really what had happened. Well, so did it just. So it's not available in Saudi Arabia. That's what actually sort of fire-walled from specific nation. Right. And that's sort of why I think it's surprising that there is this US viewer. US critic backlash to net flix because this is with Netflix. Specifically did was they cut off access to the episode about Saudi Arabia in Saudi Arabia. You can still I think contrary to a lot of the headlines, but the story you Kate nibs can still log into net flicks and watch the series premiere of Patriot Act on it flex. They didn't actually take that down. But if you were wanting to watch in Saudi Arabia, you'd have to use a VPN doll. And I think that Netflix seems very surprised by the backlash to this. And I frankly, I'm actually kind of surprised by the backlash to this. Because I find myself in this uncomfortable position of on the one hand thinking that censorship is bad. Well, yeah. Right. But also thinking like. Netflix is hardly the first and only mass media company based in the United States to have a global business where they find themselves in this uncomfortable position of having to adopt to the media regulations of authoritarian regimes that do not share human rights outlook with United States. Yeah. And so I think it's interesting. And I think Netflix thinks it's frustrating that people are acting like Netflix, invented censorship. I mean, hopefully, this will be a a jumping off point for people to think more about how difficult it is. And how to proceed when it comes to American based companies dealing with. How like should we even be in Saudi Arabia at all like I feel like it's sort of opens up this moral question of like if you disagree with the regime, should you not even be? Doing business there like that's been sort of a big discussion about how companies like Google should approach China. I mean, I understand why people are upset about this. It is upsetting. I think the blame is is with the Saudi government more. 'cause I think Netflixing really have a choice. Right. Like, it was what? Peter fine. Because if like the penalty specified is like I was talking to Allison Herman's TV critic and throwing her in in the way, she freeze it, I think she was the person who shared the tweet. And it's I I saw this story. But like she frees it in terms of like, well, why didn't Netflix just pay the fine right now. I should specify that. I believe the fine is like eighty million dollars. So I, you know, I think on the one hand like I used to work in public relations, and they can tell you that like a single day like gin. Maybe this story gets worse for net flicks. But a single day of bad press for companies bigger than that flicks is not worth paying eighty dollars to avoid if you just looking at it as a public relations thing like that's insane. Like, no one's paying eighty dollars to lake avoid having like vox, run one critical article about Netflix. You know what I mean? But. Yeah. I would say that since the death of Jamal Shoghi right lake one interesting element of the response from the American side has been like congress strangely enough fray because well Trump has sort of been Donald Trump is is close to Saudi Arabia. He's close to Mohammed bin Salman. So as Jared Kushner lake he has this this interest in sort of cultivating like good feeling between the United States and Saudi Arabia. But then you have, you know, all of these senators Republicans and Democrats who after the Jamal could Shoghi murder, you know, they were sort of openly musing about like what does it mean? For Americans to be doing business in Saudi Arabia and be doing businesses with Saudi Royal family. Like, they seem to be having a sort of prototypical version of this like, quote, unquote, awakening of like wooded means to do business with this country, and like the Netflix. This isn't that flicks fiasco with Patriot Act feels like the pop culture Twitter version of of that, you know, what I mean? And it's strange because I don't know that I. It feels like you can only if you pose that question to net flicks. I don't think that there is some like what is the what is a Netflix. You're supposed to do right now. Like, I don't think anyone's necessarily threatening to cancel their Netflix subscription over the fact that Netflix pulled this episode of Patriot Act. Well, I mean, no, this is not the only regulation it has to follow. Like when I lived in Canada, there's Canadian content laws so it had to a bunch of Canadian show is on its net. Flex Canada streaming. This is just a part of net. Flicks. Make negotiating with different countries. Unlike Netflix Thailand couldn't have shows criticizing the taigut either. You know, what I mean like, this is just part of a this is part of the thing that's been going on since these companies went global totally let's talk about like that Pacific self. So I've watched this audio Arabia. Episode in question. I watched it like right win this series from you on that flicks. And I will say that the thing that may be. Has led to this international incident is the fact that the episode is pretty like episode almost seems designed it. It's almost that episode is very it's very critical of Mohammed bin Salman is very cathartic. So for instance, I've seen like Hudson was doing a sort of standard wasn't like a properly like build comedy tour, but just as promo before Patriot Act came out he was doing shows, and I saw him at Carnegie Hall, and he was doing before I even knew that there was a Saudi era. So you suggesting that he purposely tried to get van. No, I'm just saying that like he did comedy about. He was doing comedy about Islam, and he was doing I remember like part of his Patriot Act stand up. It was about Saudi Arabia. And I just I have this sense with him that like he is interested in shit kicking about like. Religious conservatism, and this sort of like religious conservatism in body by the Saudi regime, and it's just like when I finally saw that episode of television yet. I don't think it's designed to like provoke this Audi government, but it it it did seem to be the most overtly politically antagonistic thing. I've watched on Netflix that is nonetheless like super normally mainstream thing like it's a daily show alumni unit. I mean like, and yet it just seemed like a very for Netflix again for a piece of exclusive net flicks content. It seemed to have in edgy even though again, it's like I otherwise think of his on is like he's like Q comedian with like nice air. It definitely that episode of television seem to like in retrospect, it seems like maybe it's something that like Netflix just was not designed to handle if it like considering the effect it had in the response. Sort of I think that any other service would have handled this the same way. Like, if the show was on, Hulu, if the show is on NBC or HBO, they would've pulled it to. Okay. But then I have I have a question, which is do you think it wouldn't have even been available? If that's my question, though. My question is is there like would it have been better if okay Netflix hires Assan, they pay to produce this show? Howson says I want to do this upset about Saudi Arabia. They let them do that. And they just never release it in Saudi Arabia to begin with do you think morally is that better? Is that worse? Like, I can't even I can't even wrap my head around like whether that's like an ethically. Preferable course, if Netflix had just never released episode in Saudi Arabia. No because I think they were trying to put it up in Saudi Arabia. And then they got fined, yuck. It down. Yeah. So at least people could have seen it for a little bit. Yeah. But again, I think. The I think that the real bad guys in this situation is the Saudi Arabian government, and Netflix because obviously morally compromised for like a billion reasons, but I don't really think that. Them. I think this was a probably a tough decision. But I don't I don't know. I'm not really worked up about about this I towards net flicks. Right. And that's actually what I want to bring. This to me is like there's a version of of the backlash to that flicks. That could be the beginnings of a sort of broader like among among media, critics or you know, among like arts critics like commercial like movie TV critics, it could be the beginning of like a rethink of what it means that like American media companies in studios like make these compromises so that they can operate in international markets. Yeah. Or it could just be like a bad news cycle for net flex, and then all the TV critics forget this ever happened and never pay attention to any global markets ever again. I mean, it's probably going to be the second one. But I hope I will why why do we because I think it's probably going to be the second one. But I also don't know why I just assumed. That no one's actually going to care about this in the long term, and we're never going to. Well. Okay. So I think people do care about tech companies making compromises when it comes to dealing with oppressive regimes. I don't think they're going to get super worked up about streaming services. Because in my mind, that's it's obviously not good. It's bad, but censorship is bad. Yeah. But there are like way more disturbing scenarios. Like, I was just I just saw tweet like two days ago. And it was about how Microsoft was censoring the account of an activist in China who had, you know, been agitating for democracy for a long time because they were trying to abide by the Chinese government rules, like that's that's Horton way more horrifying, and I think that Microsoft is way more culpable in that instant because it's like. Silencing an individual. That's an example. I think we should be getting more riled up by or prioritizing higher. It's like how do we stop American companies from collaborating with oppressive regimes to silence centers? There's a bigger priority. Right. How do we stand up for political comedy? But the, but then I guess on the flip side of that. I just I think at least ideally, I think okay, but getting worked up like in support of Husselmann is maybe that's a gateway drug getting worked up in favor of like dissidents, true dissidents. It could be I hope it is. Because. Because it is. You know, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if these like, Google and Facebook, and all of the big tech platform should just not engage with China should not engage a Saudi Arabia because that's not very helpful for the citizens of those countries. Who aren't you know, it's not their fault that they're living under such oppressive regimes. I don't know what the answer is. But I think we should all be talking about it more because it's really disturbing. But, but the this particular incident is less disturbing to me than a lot of others because net flicks changes its content based on regions for like a ton of different reasons. And this reason sucks, but like I would worry about Google in China before I would worry about this. We keep we're going to launch a coup against our intrepid producer right now to talk about. Netflix just like a little bit more just the little bit. I'm down with that. Kate have you seen the critically acclaimed movie bird box? I'm a human being so yes, a Netflix. Exclusive everyone thought everyone side Netflix actually publicized. How many people have watched it? They did billions of people like I don't know if I trust them because I don't I certainly don't. But it seemed like a lot of people watched it. There's a lot of memes. Yeah. We're gonna talk to means. I'm going to briefly I'm gonna try to explain to listeners bird boxes. They've probably all seen any of all seed it seven billion people watch bird box. It is a movie starring Sandra. Bullock. It is a horror movie of sorts. There is a monster of some sort that is on the loose. And that everyone in the road is hiding from an apparently, it's like it's this beautiful monster that if you look at it. I don't think it's beautiful, but people describe it as beautiful. Okay. So it's a monster in the whole affect is that if you look at the monster, he go crazy and kill yourself. What? No, you go crazy. And you start raving about how beautiful the monster is and how other people need to see it. And you start like all the people are only some people did that and the only some people paying attention movies inconsistent. It's something consistent. It's inconsistent some people they see the monster. They go crazy. They start reading. And this is a very gradual change some of them undergo for some other people. It's very immediate most of the people. They just kill themselves. Yes, they do. But I'm just saying that like certain plot important people don't just. Kill themselves. Instead, they start preaching the gospel of the monster. I had a lot of questions when I finished this movie. This movies weird. It's a weird movie. And I think Netflix should a band bird bucks. Swim. Every one. But there's a reason we're talking about who is not just we saw a movie on Netflix, and we're perplexed by so net. Netflix is hyping the hell out of his movie bird box. Not just through marketing it, but through insisting that like an unprecedented. Number of Netflix users have watched it that this is basically like a hit box office success for a movie that didn't even have like a theatrical run. Right. And the reason that's remarkable is because bird box is not it will be one thing that bird box for just like this amazing movie and it had this word of mouth, and it's like everyone loves bird box in it. It's like if it were like stranger things stranger things is a good example of a Netflix thing that the people who watched all of it loved it. And you sort of believed it's word of mouth, and that's how it became the phenomenon that stranger things he's in one buds bird box is a critically reviled movie in the tradition of other critically reviled mixed review. I think. I think relatives I think a lot of critics have. Savage that maybe it's just that the critics who don't like this movie had been very articulate in their dislike for this movie was dumb is how it's weird like it was. Okay. So the bird box problem is this. If you look online. If you look online, you will see lots of lake memes about bird box. You will see like it's a movie in which people wear blindfolds to avoid seeing the monster. It's a movie that has so many weird almost like the room level absurd moments of just acting and like plot and people are meaning this movie and a lot of these memes. Have a lot of online traction. And they're so disproportionate to how kind of like Janki and unbelievably lake I think disagreeable the movie is that it feels like there's some weird online conspiracy to pretend that bird box is a thing. I just think that it was Christmas weekend. Everyone needed a movie to watch with their family. Sandra Bullock's crowd pleaser people like horror. I think bird like I think when when it comes to like what came first the. Furred box being washed by everyone or the memes was Burbach being washed by everyone. Yeah. But that's like that's where I am. I agree with you. But I feel like we work with a lot of people who alternatively think that that hype was manufactured by Netflixing. It's all part of this sort of obscured marketing rollout for this movie in that lake online. There's a sense that Louis Netflix is behind all of them me mccown, and they'd single-handedly launched like, hey, like lovingly crafted every bird box and released it, and they're just really trying to make fetch happen with this movie. I would be very impressive. If they did that would that would say a lot about the power of marketing. Yeah. That were true because I'm like the most person laying in covering rap music. I am the first person who will unjustified Lee with no evidence whatsoever. Just accuse every lake slightly overproduced rapper of being an industry. Plan. It's gonna say you love industry plan. And that's the thing. It's like bird box is d- net flicks movie that people look at and are like this movie is an industry plant. I don't. Yeah. And I don't think that's true. I remember I was reading Emily as she does review of it. And she said it was as though it was designed by an algorithm to like appeal to the broadest possible audience, and I think that people just were like, yeah, I'm going to watch this mediocre movie. Starring Sandra Bullock, because why not I did I suspected it would be stupid. And it was, but I I was along for the ride even though I was like why can't they go through walls? Yeah. Why as machine gun Kelly in this machine Geli? I almost left the the room in which my mom was watching this Louis because machine Kelly, I didn't take it seriously. And by the end of it, I really liked it. But yeah, I guess I just wanted to get out are sort of thoughts about bird box. Just because it it seems to be a weird like marketing is gas lighting being played out on the internet for all holiday break. Yeah. And I do think a big part of it. Success was not flexes. Netflix just inundating you with. It was always on the top of the feed. You felt like it was the murky thing net. Flicks was presenting this Christmas. I think that was a big part of its success. But I don't think that there was like a really sophisticated like bought seating on Twitter fake, memes situation. Wish your favorite part of bird box. Oh, when the monster was in surrounding the SUV, though scary. Okay. My favorite part. I keep Huckabee favorite pro without spoiling it and my allowed to spoil bird box. I don't know. I feel like everyone's seen it. But I'm spoiling Burbach. Skip ahead, like sixty seconds. If you don't want spoilers my favorite part is when Sandra Bullock's boo in the movie vantera rose has to sacrifice himself. I was sad. But I thought it was the one point where they like had a coherent idea about what the monster was. And it's like, it's a again, you look at the monster, you go crazy, you you kill yourself. And it's the moment in the movie where like he s to create a distraction because all these these weird people who've already been turned by the monster of swarm the house, and they're trying to turn tramonte words and Sandra Bullock, the two kids and Jonty Rhodes creates a distraction for Sandra, Bullock, and the kiss escape, and there's a moment at which he like he's shooting the people that are trying to overtake their their last stronghold, and he sees the monster. And you think that like him seeing the monster is gonna prevent him from killing the last person who might go get Sandra book, but he sees the monster, and he has a tear down his face. And then he shoots the guy anyway, and it's like him, overcoming the power of the monster. Only briefly before he dies at those beautiful sangre. Wasn't that was we're boxes. Beautiful. Literally, billions of people have seen this movie. It is the the biggest end it's one of the biggest six Oscar hype. Even though it's not even eligible for the current Oscar year. I can't believe you're such a bird vox financial book, though. Yeah. She's great movie stupid. Why would they not name the children that was dumb? It's you know, you're asking him to believe that she just called them boy and girl for years. That's psycho yet. So people need their kids, apple lake. You know what I mean? Like, everything in perspective, Kate everything in perspective or boxes. Good. Okay. So charity is obsessed with bird box. Now, we're gonna talk about something. I'm obsessive. This is this is so weird. You have weird obsessions than me. I mean, this is this is weird. So yeah, I wanna talk about about blood based wellness. Absolutely not. We're not talking about this up. We're pick something else transfusions with young blood from teenagers. Some claim it can reverse the aging process is being tested in patients over the age of thirty five is part of a clinical trial called Imbros where people paid eight thousand dollars to get the rich growth factors found in blood plasma platelets. Okay. Listen, so two thousand eighteen was like banner year for a blood based startup scams until valley because reporter John Kerry rue John Kerry, I always pronounce his name wrong, which is bad because I interviewed him John Kerry, you I don't know anyways. He's a he's a great reporter. He wrote this book called bad blood. It's wonderful. It's about the Ranas this blood. Testing company that was once, you know, supposed to be the Silicon Valley unicorn like huge investors involved like all these different drugstores wanted to partner with them. And then so he basically traces how it's founder Elizabeth homes like scammed the shit out of people. Great read, it's going to be turned into a movie can't wait to watch it. But so the saga of thrown house was like a very two thousand eighteen story that demonstrated what happened when Silicon Valley gets too caught up in too good at selling its own hype. And it ignores stuff like whether the product or service is selling mix any goddamn sense. And I kinda thought that that we were moving on. We're moving away we hit a volved as a culture away from believing in dubious Silicon Valley blood based wellness startups. But I read this really great Huffington Post investigation that came at last week. I think it didn't get that much attention just because it was like Christmas time, but it was about another very questionable blood thing. I wanted to talk about it 'cause it's called Imbros ya. I I heard about it in two thousand sixteen because so I kinda got hyped as a company that Peter Thiel was somehow interested in he later denied that he had ever been a client, but initially it was sort of hyped as this company that Peter till like wanted wanted young blood from why do you think you'd be being a client of the young because then people cut making fun of him for being like a vampire lead into that? I mean, I don't know. I don't I can't pretend to know what's going on his mind. But so the company basically, it was was selling in currently is still selling blood transfusions from young people. So say, you're an old guy or you know, even our age you could pay eight. Thousand dollars and then get a bunch of young blood put into your body, and that was is supposed to make you healthier. But the Huffington Post investigation really laid out how despite all the hype around the company, there's really not much evidence that it it's services. Do any good say putting young you're not necessarily? Okay. There is some research this like showing that like mice or rats it can help, but like people not so much. And so the investigation really laid out the ambushes claims were thin, and it also sort of laid out some some weird stuff going on with like the company on on the personnel side. Like it turned out that the founder who portrays himself as a doctor like isn't allowed to practice medicine. His explicitly prohibited from practicing in Massachusetts Sherman. Yeah. So it's just. It doesn't it doesn't go far enough to call the company an out and out scam or anything like that. But it just it seated a lot of very substantial doubts about it. And it just sort of. I loved reading the story because I'm all about making resolutions this year. And I just want us to resolve a nation to stop getting bamboozled by startups promising to make our health better by doing unbelievable sending things because this happens all the time. Yeah. In fairness divide, you be devil's advocate in fairness, you have young blood. No. But he's just I feel like predating silicone valley humans, especially wealthy humans have a historical obsession with. Oh. And like just falling for quackery for. Sure. Right. What I do wonder why this sort of thing this sort of bizarre health, like distortion, health enterprise. I so specifically associated with Silicon Valley culture, like it's not like, I think Chuck Schumer isn't a young blood. You know what I mean? Well, maybe right. But like, I I if you were to descr if you were to cold. If I didn't if we were co host of podcasts, and like you were just describing this to me like the idea of like selling young. I'd be like, yeah. That's totally a San Francisco idea. That's totally some San Francisco's Silicon Valley shit. I feel like there's this. There's a real obsession in the tech industry with like biohacking and sort of hacking in doing quantified living your way into a better lifestyle. And so this kind of company really like fits fits in with that. I wonder if it's like the fault of journalists for not being more aggressive in investigating these companies like the huff, PO pieces. Excellent is coming out several years after this has been around though, like several years, I actually interviewed the Ambrose's CEO in two thousand sixteen because I was thinking about doing a ringer. I just didn't it sounded fake. Aac I couldn't. And then I didn't have the wherewithal at the time to do investigation. Now, I'm like shit, I probably should have pursued that, but it's just I don't know. You know, I think maybe I wish that we had more aggressive regulating body is looking into these companies before they can start selling these services like the Ron oh scammed a lot of people for a lot of years before before things kind of fell apart. It's interesting to see how how like our long standing of session with with hacking into or taking shortcuts into like greater health has just volved and hasn't really gotten more. Well, it's gotten more expensive. Yeah. If it hasn't got anymore factors snake oil costs that much today. Right. Totally. Well, okay. I think if you you mentioned two things you mentioned like the idea that it would be nice if they're greater and more prohibitive regulatory scrutiny. Yeah. Devote? Things like this. And then you mentioned something that I think is closer to our hearts, which is like the journalistic wherewithal to detect stories like this earlier in the course of these companies or in the course of these trends, and I don't know I guess on the journalism said, I just always I think of like science journalism is really hard to do. And it also just seems like. I don't know if I'm thinking of like mean stream journalism like headline making journalism. It's it's hard for me to think of like the publications that are quipped even like to have the resources into just have the like have the the sense of like how to read medical studies and shit like that to to be as aggressive in policing this as as journalists are policing like politics, for instance. You know what I mean? Yeah, I wish I really wish we had that because I think that. This is just as serious in issue as a lot of a lot of the politics stuff because it involves people's old. Even if it just involves Peter deals health. It's just. Even even hypothetical. I dunno seems kinda strange to me. Okay. Let's say a pathetically. Let's say hypothetically, I. Personally, started humoring the CBD oil trend the Cana Boyd Edano actually Hannah Kent. Yeah. Cannabinoid oil trend CBD oil is like basically processing hemp into an oil that sort of like has it doesn't get you high. But it has certain effects for treating like and pains stuff like that. And it's become this booming industry. It's huge. It's huge like their latest farm Bill times to be getting TVD oil left. And right. I swear to God. Like every passing. I know every pet owner. I know in Brooklyn is giving their dogs. They're cats. They're almost CD pills. Yeah. Well, I'm a pet to them that got some CBD oil. But it's like this boom industry. The latest farmville is like like one of the first to. Elax sort of federal regulation of hemp which seems like it'll be twenty nineteen like sort of even larger boon for this emergent cannabis industry. But that's the thing that like I spent like two months just like reading about different companies just reading read it. Let's be honest trying to get a sense of like why this is the thing my CBD oil, for instance, thing and like as much as I have I have some I have favourable thoughts about my first uses of CBD oil. And yet everything about it down to the sort of like the hype I wanna say it seems like one of those industries. That's like is this just sort of a health and wellness like. Fad that exists for a lot of people to make a lot of money very quickly by sort of overselling, the health benefits of something that even the people who swear by it sort of MIT that like the effects vary. Wildly among like, you know. Yes. Brands, and among people who take it, and it depends on sort of your brain chemistry and stuff like that. And it's like even I'm susceptible to something because it seems so harmless and it's not super expensive. I'm not buying virgin blood or anything like that. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like a sucker sucker Kate. No. I mean, I do. So I wrote a piece about CD last year in because I was trying to figure out whether there was like real or just way over hyped, and like my conclusion out of it was that it's kind of both like there are actual benefits in certain contexts when you use certain types of CBD like I talked to some researchers who were using it as an epilepsy treatment and. You know, they had pure reviewed research backing up their claims. But then you get there's like tons. I think one of the big problems is that again, there's not much regulation over like what is being sold. So you can get some products that have like active ingredients in them. And then you have some products that are, you know, made infect industrial factories with a bunch of other nasty stuff in them, and they're both being sold a CBD. So the I just think that the CBD market is a complete mess right now. And like eighty percent of the products are over hyped, and it's really hard to figure out which ones are genuine or not. And I don't think you're a sucker. But I do wonder if it's the physi- Bo effect or not depending on what you took is this your roundabout way of his asking if I if you can have some of my CD oil. Share it with you don't have to be being. I mean. Hello. We're co host. I might. Yeah. I I might have some I can't help but get to them of a segment and reflect on the fact that thousands of years of human history and a century of exponential medical advancement have brought us to the point of CD oil and harvest. Yeah. So that's it. That's all we got. That's the only that's the. That's the. The only relief for anything is we'd and let of twelve year old. Yeah. So so basically, we wouldn't mind living longer we wouldn't mind living better. But. I think we need to be very skeptical about the services and products offered to us promising to help us do those things because the it's just a mess out there. All right. I'm just in charity. I'm Kate knaves. Happy new year everyone. We're glad to be back. You'll hear us again in two weeks. Don't drink children's.

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The Oil Price War That Stoked the Market Freefall

The Journal.

17:23 min | 11 months ago

The Oil Price War That Stoked the Market Freefall

"This episode of the Journal is brought to you by Lincoln. Jobs WITH OVER. Six hundred and seventy five million members. Lincoln Puts Your Job Post in front of the candidates. Who Match Your Business for fifty dollars off your first job. Post go to Lincoln Dot com slash the Germano terms and conditions. Apply in your this week. The stock market plummeted losing ten percent of its value from just a week ago. The Corona virus pandemic has caused most of that market turmoil. But there's another thing that's made that pain worse. A battle over oil that sent prices into free-fall the oil market had its worst day in almost three decades. The drop was spurred by a growing oil price war as the market was already weakened by Corona virus fear. So we've got all of this piling on and there's going to be a lot of pain. What was the reaction like from Wall Street analysts and oil officials around the world? Some of the words. You don't want to repeat on a family podcast but no one had ever seen anything like it. Ken Brown is our financial enterprise editor. You saw oil prices collapse. You know causing people to lose billions of dollars investors to lose money changing dynamics for drivers for oil drillers for everything it was. You know pretty unbelievable this oil price. War couldn't have come a worse time for the global economy and the decision to set off. This war was made by one man the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia Mohammad bin Salman. Here's a guy who is sitting in. Riyadh in this kingdom and then he can turn around and basically blow up the world oil market. He wants to be in power and he is like listen. I'm the boss is nothing you can really do about it today. On the show with the world economy on the brink. Why did the crown prince start a devastating oil fight? Welcome to the Journal. Our show about money business empowered. I'm Ryan I'm Kate Linebaugh. It's Friday March thirteenth. The chain of events that sent oil prices tumbling all began with a deal to do the exact opposite back in two thousand seventeen. Saudi Arabia struck an agreement with Russia to keep oil prices. Hi this deal was particularly important to Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman because NBS as he's known had huge plans to diversify the kingdom's economy away from oil to do that. He needed a lot of money and he hoped to get some of that from the IPO of Saudi Arabia's national oil company Aramco the key to the success of that IPO was high oil prices. You Value Oil Company on how much oil it pulls out of the ground and the price that oil right and so- Aramco can pull a Lotta oil out of the ground And so it really matters the price but Saudi Arabia alone doesn't control the price it's deal with Russia. The third largest oil producer in the world was helping it keep oil prices high basically by limiting production and then in December of Twenty Nineteen Aramco. Ipo debuted how did that PEO not so good. So they had hoped to list in the biggest financial centers of the world. That hope that this would be you know. Wow there's Exxon and Shell and you know that. But the big oil company the Big Dominant Oil Company everyone noses. Aramco and what happened was global. Investors were wary of investing in a company that it's essentially run by the crown. Prince investors have no say so Saudi Arabia they ended up doing the IPO on the Saudi Arabian stock market. Which is not financial hub. It didn't make Saudi Arabia. This big global financial player like they thought it would it made them just wow Saudi Aramco's now enlisted and you could buy the shares if you want but they trade in Saudi Arabia and the World Kinda gave a shrug after the IPO. In December Russia started getting antsy. They weren't so sure anymore. About the deal. To limit production. Russia wanted to sell more oil so the Russian economy would hurt a bit by US sanctions of varying sorts. And so they were just looking for a little boost a little way to get the economy. Going a little stronger and so- Russia started push a little more to raise production and they felt like you know the global economy was good and Saudi Arabia had its IPO and we should boost production of it. We don't need to ally ourselves with Saudi Arabia anymore. Russia was just sort of pushing back. This was a big problem for Saudi Arabia. If Russia started pumping more oil sending prices down. It would hit the Saudi economy hard so Saudi Arabia needed to keep Russia on board. Starting at the beginning of the year there were discussions between the Saudis and the Russians and the Saudis knew that the Russians wanted out and they were saying well. Listen let's work it out. Maybe we can do some investing in Russia. Maybe we can help your economy offset some of the pain of the US sanctions. And then you'll keep production where it is and we'll both be happy. Saudi Arabia hoped by SWEETENING THEIR AGREEMENT. Russia would keep working with them and then according to sources NBS as his father. The king to call up Russian President Vladimir Putin to try to seal the deal to keep oil prices up. The Saudi King said he wanted to talk to Putin Putin kind of said no for awhile and then finally agreed to a conversation. It didn't go anywhere. The Russians were reluctant to negotiate on this part and so our reporting around those meetings showed Russia just backed off and said No. We're not going to do a deal right now. Let's just wait to add to that. Russia was concerned about the growing corona virus epidemic and so in February talks between the two countries stalled. All eyes were on the next time. Russia and Saudi Arabia would meet in March at a summit for OPEC the global cartel of oil producing countries but in the lead up to that summit the Crown Prince. Nbs had other concerns back at home in Saudi Arabia as all these talks are going on with Russia. Nbs is sort of having like low grade annoyances with a bunch of the members of the royal family so this is a sprawling royal family and the kingship thrown has been passed among brothers and then the what the king did was saying no actually MBA is going to be the next one and so this is a clear rival. Reframe BS and you know. He is very clear that he wants to be in charge. You know this is the heir apparent. He's protecting his throne and any threat or perceived threat is dealt with in a pretty draconian way bit Shakespearean right and according to sources one of the things that the crown prince is especially concerned about is the former crown prince his cousin Mohammed bin Ni- F. M. B. S. had replaced him in two thousand seventeen ever since. Tensions between the two have been brewing. About who would succeed the king if the king dies Mohammed bin Af one of the People? Who could challenge? Nbs for the throne for months. Nbs has been squeezing his cousin reading his home and even building a fence around his private helipad. Why did NBS feel a need to turn the screws to to show? He's the guy in charge so he's always been that way. He's always been clear that he's the guy in charge and Threats are dealt with in pretty tough ways you know you can debate right so either. He feels threatened and so he feels like he has to act either. He feels paranoid or he feels like he's coming from position of strength and he can really push these folks aside and it's impossible to know and it may be a combination of all those things I mean. Nba does want people complaining right. Nbs wants everyone to be behind him and that all came to a head last week as a delegation from Saudi Arabia began negotiating with Russia at the OPEC summit. Nbs made his most drastic move yet to consolidate power at home. So on Friday last Friday word starts to leak out that had been a bunch of detentions a bunch of prominent members of the Saudi Royal Family got hold in Mohammed bin. Nyathi was arrested. And the King's brother Ahmed Bin Abdulaziz was arrested. Another member of the Royal Family was arrested. According to our reporting a bunch of guards showed up at their houses at their palaces with masks dressed all in black from the royal court and hold these guys in and so this is pretty dramatic especially because the people they hold it in a very prominent. This doesn't happen every day And it raises all kinds of questions. People in the royal court floated the idea that there was a coup attempt or they were planning coup attempt. There's all this palace intrigue. I mean it really is Shakespearean busily sort of trying to think about. What's the right Shakespearean reference here is? Is it sort of Macbeth or hamlet? Or what what do you think I I would say? Choose your tragedy. I mean as we all know in half the Shakespearean tragedies when the king dies or the Queen dies. That's when you know things really go kabui. He's a young guy and he is asserting a lot of power and there's no one that young has been charged there in a long time they were being shown who's boss essentially coming up M. B. S. turns his attention to the global oil market and tries to show Russia. Who's in charge? This episode of the Journal is brought to you by Lincoln jobs. The perfect hire can impact your business for years to come. That's why Lincoln job screen candidates for hard and soft skills like collaboration creativity and adaptability with over six hundred and seventy five million members linked in looks beyond the work skills to put your job post in front of the people who match your business for fifty dollars off your first job. Post go to Lincoln Dot Com Slash Journal terms and conditions apply. Welcome back around the time of the arrests of MBPS's political opponents. The Crown Prince was also in touch with his brother the Oil Minister of Saudi Arabia who is in Vienna at the OPEC summit so his brother is sitting there in Vienna negotiating with some of the most powerful oil economies in the world. Trying to figure out what we're going to do with oil supply in the world and layered onto that the world economy's screeching to a halt because of corona virus. The biggest oil importer in the world is China China's economy ground to a halt in the first quarter. And then you have. Yeah this OPEC meeting where the fate of part of the world's economy is being decided and on top of all that Saudi Arabia's frayed agreement with Russia. The one that had been in place since two thousand seventeen was at a breaking point so in Vienna that day. Nba says brother was at the table with Russia. Trying to renegotiate a deal that would keep global oil prices high and so they're negotiating and the last. Saudi bargaining position is. Listen we're going to keep these production levels going for three more months so just put up with us for three more months. We'll do what we've been doing for a while and in three more months will revisit this and the Russians were not agreeing to that but that was what was on the table and then there was a phone call between NBS and his brother the oil minister where NBS said you know. Three moments isn't good enough twelve months. It was pretty clear the Russians weren't gonNA agree to three more months and NBS is saying twelve more months so NBA at home is basically squeezing. His rivals is telling people you know. You better listen to me or else. And he essentially is telling the same thing to the Russians which is listen. Not only do I want to keep production where it is now. We're going to do it for another year and basically you agree with me or not. But that's what we're doing and he phoned Putin what happened there. We'll talk to him. I mean this has been a you know an interesting thing. I mean you know these. Look these guys in some ways. They're made for each other right there. Too Strong willed autocrats and they really didn't negotiate and so the Russians. Were just not going to go along with it. And there's not really much more talking. Dan The Saudis. Come out and say well. Actually we're going to do is we're going to Jack up production if you don't WANNA play with US. We're going to take our ball and go home. And if you don't want to talk to us you don't want to do our terms we're gonNA blow up the whole system and they did this past Saturday. Saudi Arabia launched an all out price war. Saudi Arabia floods the market with oil despite waning demand. They've gone nuclear here. I'M. They did everything they could over the weekend to do and achieve the objective that we're seeing right. Now which is this plummeting price. Not only did they go into the biggest decline in oil since I nine hundred ninety one. Which was the first Gulf or when that started so it was unbelievable. This price war hit as global markets. Were already incredibly worried about the corona virus epidemic. And one of the most puzzling things about Saudi Arabia's decision is that one of the countries that could be most badly hurt by declining oil. Prices is Saudi Arabia itself. What DOES THE COLLAPSE IN OIL PRICES DUE TO THE SAUDI ECONOMY? Well so the government is a dominant force in the Saudi economy and the government basically gets its money from oil. And so it's going to be tough on. They're going to be cutting the budget cutting all the subsidies all the Saudis get and It's could potentially be painful. Why would he do that? Boy I wish I knew it asserts. His power he can do this. You can argue. He threw a fit and said fine. You know we are going to pump out a lot of oil right now even though the world doesn't want it. It's the worst possible time to be jacking up. Production we're GONNA do it and basically you guys are all screwed. The question is was there some deeper strategy behind this or was he just annoyed at the Russians and he did this crazy thing. It's hard to know but you know this was pretty dramatic. I mean he's playing havoc with you know the world's most important commodity at a usually vulnerable time in the global economy for this story. The Wall Street Journal attempted to reach the parties involved and none provided comment. Meanwhile there are no signs that this oil price war will end soon. Both sides doubled down this week on Tuesday. Russia announced. It could start pumping half a million more barrels a day and on Wednesday. Saudi Arabia hit back. Unveiling plans to boost oil production by a million barrels. A day That's offered today. Friday march thirteenth. The Journal is a CO production of guilt and the Wall Street Journal. Your Hosts Army Ryan Newton and me. Kate Lima special. Thanks to summerside. Justin check been waffle cone and Jared Malsin for their reporting on the story. We're produced by anti mintoff. Ricky Novitsky Sarah Platt Will Ruben and Rob Zip go. Our senior producer is Pierre. God Cari any row. Strasser supervising producer. Griffin Tanner is our engineer. Our Executive Producer Gerard Cole. Our theme music is by so wildly additional music. This week from Katherine Anderson Billy Libby Peter Leonard so widely and blue dot sessions fact checking by Nicole Polka. Thanks for listening to you on Monday.

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NPR News: 12-23-2019 9PM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 1 year ago

NPR News: 12-23-2019 9PM ET

"Live from NPR news in Washington. I'm Jack Speer. North Korea says it is planning to give the US a Christmas present in the closing days of two thousand nineteen as nuclear talks have stalled. NPR's Asia Roscoe reports North Korea said a year end deadline for the two sides to reach a deal. No Korean officials have not said what the Christmas present might be but experts are on the lookout for some type of provocative action. The goshi between the two countries have not made much progress us. Even though president trump met with North Korea's leader. Kim Jong own twice this year. The key sticking point is Kim's demand for immediate sanctions. Relief President Trump says that Kim must dismantle North Korea's nuclear weapons program before sanctions can be lifted North Korea analysts say the regime may take aggressive of action to try to force another summit with trump. US officials have expressed hope that the conflict can be resolved Aisha roscoe NPR news Washington Washington. On one of the busiest travel days of the year Florida's Fort Lauderdale. Hollywood international airport was temporarily closed today. Because of record rainfall said he's average monthly rainfall for December's only about two and a half inches but the city recorded three times that within a few hours. NPR's Greg Allen reports. The system has also brought heavy branding flying to other parts of the South Fort. Lauderdale's airport received seven inches of water flooding roads and grounding flights. The airport shut down for a time but reopened this morning. Several flights that's were cancelled and more than one hundred delayed as the airport dealt with the aftermath of the flooding elsewhere in south Florida has received more than a foot of rain and emergency personnel rescued motorists who were stranded stranded in high water. The National Weather Service says the combination of heavy rain. Offshore winds and high tide means coastal flooding possible in South Carolina through tomorrow morning Greg Allen. NPR News Saudi Arabia has sentenced five people to death for the killing of Washington. Post column Mr Marc Shoji so grisly killing at the Saudi consulate insulating Istanbul last year sparked international condemnation killing drew suspicion about the involvement of the Saudi Royal Family and Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman Stephanie. Stefan Jauregui is a spokesperson for the UN security general secretary. General says there's concern about investigations and how they've been conducted. The Secretary General General continues to stress the need for an independent and impartial investigation into the murder to ensure full examination of and can accountability for human rights violations committed in the case study. Arabia's stayed on television says three others have been given prison sentences so g is believed to have been dismembered after being killed inside ride the consulate sales of new homes route. One point three percent in November the increase in sales latest signed low mortgage interest rates helping to buoy the housing market somewhat heading into under the New Year on Wall Street. Today the Dow gained ninety six points. The Nasdaq was up. Twenty points you're listening to. NPR People in France are struggling to get home for the holidays as nationwide transport strikes over the government's plans to overhaul its pension system now carry on for a fourth week from Paris. Rebecca rosman reports about half of all high speed intercity. Trains were cancelled today. Travelers were forced to push through a Seat of protesters who were blocking the entrance to the Gardellin train station in eastern Paris. Monday morning the station temporarily shut down as riot police. Trying to disperse dispersed the crowd of several hundred demonstrators including Isabel Marolt teacher who says she has little sympathy for travelers. We have two shows his government. We don't I agree with them So no I don't feel sorry for the travelers. Not that'll French President Emmanuel macron culture. A temporary Christmas truce but still only around half of intercity trains running as normal on Monday. Some unions of culture the strikes to continue into January for NPR news. I'm Rebecca Rosman. In Paris. Asfaw Disney shares took a bit of a hit today after a worse than expected opening weekend for the company's final film in the latest star. Wars Trilogy Star Wars the rise of skywalker. I Walker Industry analysts anticipated in. Its first full weekend in theaters. The movie would take in about two hundred million dollars but at one hundred seventy five and a half million at fell a bit short still. It was good enough to rate as the third largest weekend. Release of the year with the coming holiday period is expected the rise of skywalker will dominate. The year's most lucrative week of moviegoing crude oil futures prices up slightly today oil and the decision up eight cents a barrel at sixty fifty two a barrel. I'm Jack Speer N._P._R.. News in Washington.

NPR North Korea Washington NPR trump Jack Speer Saudi Arabia Paris US Rebecca rosman Greg Allen Fort Lauderdale Kim Jong Saudi Royal Family president Asia South Fort Florida
Hatice Cengiz's mission: Don't forget Jamal

FT News

11:10 min | 1 year ago

Hatice Cengiz's mission: Don't forget Jamal

"Hello from the Financial Times in London. I'm Alec Russell the editor of empty weekend and this is news and focus where we offer our insights into the stories that matter I'm with ruler Caliph the deputy editor of the F. T. and she's had recently rather astonishing interview. She met recently Hattie's challenges who of course found herself at the center of an international drama indeed something of a horror story last October. This is when the young Turkish academic were seen waiting outside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul for her fiance who never appeared that man of course was the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi details of whose murder at the hands of Saudi the thugs would leak out over the coming days and weeks so really just start by telling us. What is the state of the investigation into Khashoggi's death? Well depends what you mean by investigation and which investigation in Saudi Arabia Arabia a group of people are being put on trial but we know very little about this trial elsewhere. There has been a U._N.. report by a U._N.. Expert on the murder however that report does not or have any legal basis it only makes recommendations and it has recommended an impartial international investigation for that to happen however you would need you on Security Council approval and I don't expect that exactly exactly 'cause you're touching on the really important point of the sort of full out of this whole saga namely. It doesn't look as if we're going to be many repercussions for the Saudi regime does it and why is that. I think that there were initially some repercussions for the. The Saudi regime mainly reputational a lot of business. People and political figures stayed away from Saudi Arabia. There was a bit conference. That was a flop but I think over time things of return to normal. I don't think the reputation of the Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman the man we know as and BS will ever really fully recover but I think that once Western governments and especially the U._S. government can't say that doing business with Saudi Arabia's fine he was for example at the g twenty in fact Saudi Arabia is going to be hosting the g twenty next year that is kind of rehabilitation Saudi Arabia hosting the g twenty year stunning given all that happened and imagine particularly appalling news for your lunch companion. The other day had tease Chang who is campaigning passionately for Kashoggi's motorists to be brought to justice. Here is a clip now so I want to know who gave the order to kill them out and who else knew I want to know. Where is his body? I implore you to take action darkness essay. It is time for sanctions so that was her tease. Chang is speaking at the U._N.. Human Rights Council in Geneva last month. The Agnes was referring to as Agnes Calamar the special reporter on extrajudicial killings who had in fact just revealed called the results of this investigation you talking about ruler which found quote credible evidence clothes quotes that senior Saudis implicated in Mr Kashoggi's murder but let's turn to at t's challenges this was a powerful and really poignant. Poignant interview you had to do rule tell us what impression did you make. It was obviously a painful interview. It's painful for her to speak about Sharma but I think she's also now very driven. She is so frustrated by the silence she so frustrated by the fact that there has been no action that she's now turned this into her mission. Jomo Hachioji was essentially fighting for human rights. It's this is what he was writing about and she now feels that she has to take up that fight as I write in my lunch with the F. T. she now knows that she is part of the story. She's been studying the Middle East for a long time and now she feels that she's become one of its victims and there are so many of them so she was fighting back tears the whole lunch at one point when she tells me about the nights when she knew for sure that Jamal was dead. That's when her tears came rushing down one of the many things that struck me about her accounting hug conversation with you was relatively brief had in her relationship with Jamalco. Gee I mean they don't known each other for a few months. I wonder if you could just say a little bit about how they met in the nature of their relationship yes they only met in May of last year they met at a conference about the Gulf in Istanbul. Jamaa was speaking at that conference and she had only known him as someone who should seen on T._v.. She'd read him. She was very interested in Saudi Arabia and she was very keen to interview him about what. What was going on in Saudi Arabia what he was writing about and so she just goes up to him and introduces herself and says can we talk? Can you give me a few minutes and she speaks to him in Arabic because she speaks pretty fluent Arabic and I think that impresses impresses Jamal and so they meet up he asks her by Turkish awesome about Saudi and then she contact him again to tell him when the story is going to be published and two. I think check some quotes that's next time he goes to Turkey. They meet up again but this was a very quick romance in many ways but from what she told me this also has to do with the fact that Jemaah was in a very uncomfortable place ace at the time he was sort of looking for a new life. He'd been exiled in the U._S.. He was on his own so he was looking for a companion and he was very depressed and I think that they found in each other. You know the person she understood him. He understood her and so yes. This was a marathon romance. When he was murdered? He was writing columns for the Washington Post but as his then fiancee points out in this interview he actually in previous part of his life. He'd been an advisor to some members of the Saudi Royal Family Herself says in this interview one of the many powerful lines she says Jamal was from the palace not from outside it. He was not their enemy. Can you tell us why were they so frightened of him. Why did they have to kill him well? It's a very good question Alec. I don't think that anyone really knows why they were so frightened of him but it is also possible that they weren't that frightened of him. They had a strategy. Ah of silencing anyone who was critical of the Crown Prince Jamal wasn't the only one many of journals friends who stayed in Saudi Arabia are in jail and this new regime demint Saudi Arabia requires not only that you don't criticize they require that you approve the reason Jamal had left was because he did not want to engage and to support award a very hostile strategy towards cutter he was required to write in support of the strategy and that's where he drew the line and so there is such an intolerance that even someone who is only a writer actually not a writer who schooling for revolution a writer who wants Saudi Arabia to correct and to move on a better path. I mean you can even argue that much of what he was. Writing was advice to the crown prince but there is zero tolerance. It's not going to be easy for her. T snow is it nearly a year has passed as you said earlier for some parts of the sort of Western business in foreign policy establishment is not quite business as usual but they are going to re apply some of those ties to Saudi. What do you see happens to her now to? She pursue this cause at U._N.. How does she make any headway? I found and her to be very determined. I think that she wants to use the Kalama a report to try to put pressure on Western governments but may be more broadly she. Will become a voice that is just fighting for human rights at some point. I imagine she would even have to address that in Turkey. Because of course there are a lot of journalists who are jailed elden Turkey for hottest today. Her cause is Jamal but I think that she may also in the future want to broaden her course that it's not Jamaa and the Truth About Jamaa which I'm sure she will continue to fight for but YEP. She may very well be campaigner for human rights all is thrust upon her shoulders after just knowing him for a few months extraordinary I think we should end with a clip from Matisse which is also something of a call to arms from in her and she said this at the U._N.. Session in Geneva last month echoing what she said to you in this remarkable interview it's not only my below Jamal who was more that they but also democracy human rights and freedoms the failure to punish murderers F._X.. Also Mr Chair the truth always wins. He's story. We'll take note of those who stood with through and those who did not police take action. Thank you very much ruler uh-huh and thank you for listening. Please don't forget you can catch up with any episode. You may have missed on anything from China's dilemma on Hong Kong to even Boris Johnson's Brexit deadline and workplace stress. These are available on all usual podcast platforms. This Financial Times podcast is supported by capital one capital. One is building a better bank one.

Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia Arabia Prince Jamal Saudi consulate Jamal Khashoggi murder Saudi Royal Family Financial Times Istanbul Alec Russell Turkey F. T. Geneva Human Rights Council Mr Kashoggi Hattie London Chang Middle East
Hello MBS. How the worlds richest man was hacked.

Post Reports

22:49 min | 1 year ago

Hello MBS. How the worlds richest man was hacked.

"From the newsroom of the Washington Post Robert Samuels from the Washington Post. Sarah Kaplan Hi This is Ellen this post reports. I'm Martine powers. It's Thursday January three twenty third today the latest impeachment news how the Saudi Crown Prince May Have Hacked Jeff Beezus and the best part of wikipedia pages. Thank you chief justice and thank you to the senators for four to now very long days were greatly appreciate so. Amber Phillips today is stay three of the Senate impeachment trial the the second day when house managers Democrats are making their case against President from how was to date different from what we saw yesterday. Adam mm shifts started the hearings on Thursday by saying and here. I must ask you for some forbearance. I know that you guys Are Complaining to reporters about us. Repeating a Lotta stuff. Well we're going to repeating a Lotta stuff I want. I want to explain the reason for it. You've now heard hundreds of hours of deposition and live testimony from the House. Condensed into an abbreviated narrative of the facts. We will now show you these facts and many others and how they are interwoven. You'll see some of these facts and videos therefore in in a new context in a new light in the light of what else we know and why it compels a finding of guilt and conviction so there is some method to. You're madness at the same time. He's continued to make this case that that Republicans should join Democrats and introduce no evidence in the form of documents and trump's tops. Aides testifying in his point was that we won't be repeating. It's much the basically the reason why we have to repeat. Everything is because we still only have essentially the information that we had during the house impeachment hearings but that if you were allowing us to bring a new witnesses and introduce. He's new evidence than we can talk about new stuff. But you're not allowing us to do that exactly but there's an inherent tension in that argument. That Democrats are making the same time. They're saying we we even gotten to the bottom of this. They're also saying we know. Exactly what trump did irreputable enough you guys to kick him out of office and that those things are not the same thing. They're in contrast with each other. I don't know that they're mutually exclusive. And you also. I saw that at various points today where you had house Democrats basically trying to make Republicans. Look hypocritical going so far as to bring up video we o of what people had said in the past about the powers of the president and about what an abuse of power looks like what it means he brought up video of Alan Dershowitz who who is now serving. As the president's lawyer he brought up video of Lindsay Graham from the past and that really seemed to be an effort to undermine what Republicans are going to be saying. Hang in coming days. That's right Democrats were saying. Listen some of you are sitting here. In this chamber who argued Bill Clinton should be impeached two decades ago for lesser things things then what trump is accused of now and used in Lindsey Graham's case those exact same arguments were using today to say he should be thrown out of office office and I might say the same thing of then house manager Lindsey Graham who in President Clinton's trial flatly rejected the notion that impeachable offenses are limited. The violation of established law here is what he said a hacker. How about an important person hurt hurt somebody? Low means snot very scholarly. But I think it's the truth. I think that's what they meant by. High crimes doesn't even have to be a crowd is just when you start using your office. You're acting in a way that hurts. People as I thought it was rather pointed of Democrats to bring up Alan Dershowitz. He is this Harvard law professor. who used to be on the left and is now enraged aged laugh? Because he's now on the right on on Fox News defending trump and saying he shouldn't be impeached for this stuff and he's on trump's legal team and we can expect him to defend the president to in the coming days. Another comes to mind. Is Professor Alan Dershowitz. At least Alan Dershowitz nine hundred ninety eight back then. Here here is what he had what he had to say about. Impeachment for abuse of power. Certainly doesn't have to be a crime if you have somebody who completely corrupts the office of the president and who abuses trust and who poses a great danger to our liberty. You don't need a technical crime essentially that you don't have to commit a crime time to be impeached. which is something that president trump has been out there saying inaccurately that he you have to meet the Statutory Criminal Code in in order for Congress to throw him out of office? I'm also curious about how the senators who are sitting in the chambers are doing. I'm not sure the chief justice is fully aware of just tau rare. It is how extraordinary it is for the House members to be able to command the attention of senators sitting silently for hours or even minutes for that matter. Of course it doesn't hurt that the morning starts out every day with the sergeant at arms warning you that if you don't you will be imprisoned. It's our hope that when the trial concludes and you've heard us and you've heard the president's council over a series of long days that you don't choose imprisonment instead of anything further because we talked yesterday about how. It was already clear that people people were getting bored. And today we saw tweets about Richard Burr having a fidget spinner and Marsha Blackburn reading a book openly during the Senate impeachment trial and whether things are really devolving in terms of the attention span of senators or even any pretense that they're really Lee listening to and processing information. That's being spoken to them. It does seem like senators are just blatantly. Some of them tuning out in missile Marsha Blackburn in particular. You brought up is someone who went out of her way to go on social media and say yes. I'm reading a book during the trial. That's wild wild. She tried to say it was tied to the case. But but I didn't explain why you wouldn't listen to Democrats explaining the case it suggests that Republicans are not taking the seriously anymore. They're you know. They swore that oath of impartiality at the beginning. But there's nothing in holding them to that. There's no punishment for violating that oath for reading. A book or playing with toys are just getting up and walking out whenever you want An indefinitely suggests is it. Democrats are going to have a hard time convincing any Republicans to join them going forward on some of these motions. They wanted you to keep the trial going. So what are you going to be watching for on Friday and Saturday. Democrats have one more day of being able to present their case. How are they going to wrap at this up? We just talked about senators. Not Focusing being bored I noticed Adam. Schiff delete impeachment manager as someone who loves to come on in between each presentation presentation entitled in a Nice Tidy Bo. So how is he going to take all of this information. Twenty four hours worth put it together succinctly and clearly Saturday today. Total seachange impeachment trial at this point. Republican senators won't be sitting there feeling like they're being lectured by Democrats would just how how some of them have described this trial. So far. We're going to have president. Trump's team began their defense. There are indications. They haven't outright said this that they are going to be shoulder. We also saw Tuesday when they got up debating. The rules of this trial in favor of a again shorter sinked in and out kind of trial that there was political tax in very personal ways. To some of the senators sitting there They used hyperbole at one point accusing Democrats of an undemocratic kind of foreign country in the way they're behaving with president trump and at one point they were flat out inaccuracies. It's a very very trumpian style of defense and interested. See how they do that. Amber Phillips reports on Politics for the fix for more updates from the Senate impeachment trial check out our impeachment podcast feed. It's updated daily with the latest stories from post reports. It's not along with some of our other politics. PODCASTS subscribe at Washington Post Dot com slash. PODCAST well the awkward task ask of writing about the owner of the Washington Post. Jeff bezos. Who is better known as the founder of Amazon and in this particular case He's in the news because ause. Despite being head of a major technology company he had his phone hacked and not only that his phone was hacked but that it was hacked by the head of the Saudi Royal Family. Yeah so that's the news here. Mark Fischer is a senior editor at the post. Jeff Bezos the richest men in the world and Mohammed bin Salman Salman the crown prince of Saudi Arabia happened to be guests at the same dinner party in Hollywood when The Crown Prince was visiting the United States. And so this was a high power or dinner and as In the course of the evening Crown Prince and Jeff bezos exchanged phone numbers because they wanted to have a texting relationship and into later that evening base sends a text on what's apt to the crown prince and says hello. NBS that's what he's known as Hamad bin Salman and BS and and the next morning because they're not adolescence. The crown prince comes along and brute turns the message says Hello Jeff. I've saved your phone number KNBR and as we find out later in this. UN report boy. Did he save that number. Some weeks down the line basis receives another text on what's APP from Mohammed bin. Salt is no text attached. There's no conversation going on. Nothing precedes it. It's a promotional the video in Arabic about the telecom prospects of Saudi Arabia. What a great market would be if someone wanted to invest there in in telecommunications and contained in the video according to this allegation create? This report is a single line of code just a bite or two that allows Saudis to take over Jeff businesses full on Wednesday. The United Nations just released a report concluding with medium to high confidence that a phone associated with Mohammad bin. Salman was behind the hacking and now there are a lot of questions Russians remaining including whether this was the hack that unearthed private texts and photos that were leaked published by the national enquirer last year. Those texts Exim Photo showed that Jeff Bezos was having an affair. Someone had hacked businesses phone extracted an enormous amount of information over a very extended period and it now appears that that infection came from the personal account of the Crown Prince suing the richest man in the world is attacked by the leader of the world's world's largest oil exporting nation. The context for this is that on the very day before that dinner party. The Washington Post columnist Jamal Kashogi Gate longtime critic of the Saudi regime and who has left Saudi Arabia and living in the United States writes a column highly critical of the Crown Crown Prince and his reform efforts saying this is just window-dressing and he Kashogi feels that What's going on in? Saudi Arabia is actually a deeper level of repression of people even as the regime tries to dress it up as reform and liberalization and so according to this report the people who conducted it. Do they believe that what was happening here was that that Mohammed bin Salman was trying to get secret data off of Jeff Basis. Phone one in an attempt to blackmail him or influence him or get him to stop the Washington Post from from writing stories that you're so negative about the Saudi royal family. We don't know for certain what his initial motive was. The United Nations statement does say that this was part of an effort that that the crown prince and his regime had been undertaking against Saudi dissidents around the world against others in which they were essentially surveilling these people electronically electronically and so it may be that the initial idea was. Let's just keep watch on. Jeff bezos. Let's see what he's up to. There was in addition to that social relationship. Between between the two men at the dinner party there was a business relationship that was budding Jeff Bezos was looking into opening three data centers in Saudi Arabia. which would be the first big Amazon venture into Saudi Arabia and the Saudi Arabians? Were very interested in that because they really wanted to establish their country as a place that was is open to the tech industry in a way. That hadn't been before it would eventually all fall apart as the relations between Bezos and crown prince collapsed. But at that point There was a budding business relationship. And maybe this was just your standard business spying where people want to find out what a rival or potential partners thinking of doing and what does the Saudi Royal Family said about these allegations and the evidence against them and is there any world in which they could face some sort of I. I don't know if prosecution or or at least repercussions for potentially having done this well. The Saudis are denying. Any of this. They're saying that it's all absurd. Conference would never do this. Although strangely enough Washington Post correspondent. Kareem Fahim in Istanbul was able to report last night that there are people in and the crown prince's direct circle who say well the crown prince would never have Spied on Jeff bezos phone. But some of his aides might have they might have had this technology and just couldn't help themselves but using it and so it looks like there's an attempt going on now within the royal court to deflect blame for this away from the Crown Prince and to people around him. Why do you think the story is important beyond just what it means for Jeff visas and his own concerns about his own privacy? Well is story with many tentacles. I mean it's it's not just Jeff bezos Amazon Saudi Arabia and the various business interests. That they have it's the national enquirer and their expose about businesses extramarital affair. And why were they doing that. And why was president trump so interested in that. Why was the National Inquirer so interested in the marital relations of a big American businessmen? That's not their usual territory. He's not the kind of celebrity liberty that they normally write about A. Why were they so quick? To deny president trump had anything to do with this Ah and to the extent that the attempted allegedly to extort and blackmail bezos when he accused the Saudis of playing a role in this on behalf of president trump. I I also think that it's interesting to think about this. In the context of what some people are feeling which is somewhat of a disillusionment with Saudi Arabia rate. We saw that politically. We happen in the wake of Jamal. Kaci death where you you had at least some politicians or some. US leaders rethinking the relationship with Saudi Arabia and whether whether we really our allies and I wonder if some of that is happening in the business world as well where you have someone who like Jeff. Jesus who is looking at Saudi Arabian Dan saying yes. It makes a lot of sense to do business. But these people in a lot of ways and there's a lot of money to be made but that could come at a cost and that then that these aren't relationships that should necessarily be trusted exactly right and in fact it was really noteworthy at the Foreign Minister of Saudi Arabia. who was asked about this? Whole mess at The World Economic Conference in Davos earlier this week. The very first thing he said was of course. This is absurd. The Crown Prince would never have hacked. Jeff Bezos phone and then the next center his mouth was but this won't have any effect on on investors willingness to pump money into Saudi Arabia and to expand that economy to the extent that that regime has been willing to murder burder. A Washington Post columnist were hack. The head of Amazon's phone. These are indications to people who run large businesses. That may be. This is not a place we want to entrust our investments Mark Fischer is a senior editor with the Post. Uh No no no more And now one more thing about that. Little section on celebrities competed the pedia pages. The section labelled personal life. I was talking with a coworker recently. About what would make it into my wikipedia a PDA personal life section. Probably say like a very basic fact like cheers from Ohio and then it always kind of falls up something completely out of nowhere and for me it would probably probably be like. She is from Ohio and she fears flavor. Because that's something a lot of people know about me. It was like I only like plain food. That would somehow make it in there and it would be really embarrassing but but true name is. Emily are and I'm an entertainment reporter for the Post. I find myself looking at personal life entries on like a pedia pretty much constantly because I read a lot about celebrities and even if I'm going to their record pedia page to find out a movie they were in inevitably go right to personally. I because that's where the good stuff is. And then I tend to go down rabbit hole from there. I knew that I did this all the time. I'm looking pedia but I was really curious. Curious if other people did do and when I looked online social media I found so many other people do this so it made me Google a lot better about myself for sure but then I learned a ton of really interesting things about People's Internet habits. One really interesting thing I found this is that the personal section Kapadia is kind of a long running joke. LGBT community because I found a ton of tweets from people just basically saying personal life is like where you go to find out if a person is gay. A lot of people. I talk to you so that they go straight to the personal section to relationship drama because that's obviously such a fun thing to know about celebrities. They were either married to people. You didn't expect they've had a lot of marriages. Maybe they dated someone. And you're like I didn't even know list to people knew each other and then inevitably click on that person's page it just spirals out of control and before you know it it's like three hours later New Yorker piece on a ex girlfriend girlfriend of mine and in that that Yorker peace. There was a brief mention of the fact that I had a UNICYCLE propped up in the corner of the apartment. And since then that's stuck stuck as I talked to this illustrator named Landis Blair and I had kind of stumbled across his page. I think someone had actually tweeted like this is the best just personal life section on Wikipedia. And it just says Landis rides a unicycle a bit strange to have that be the one personal fact. That's on my page then. Also I'm some such sense grateful because I'd much rather have that than other deeply personal want anybody to know and I think that people's obsession with the personal life section of Wikipedia really does say a lot about who we are as people. Because because I just think it's fascinating that even if it's a celebrity that you're not likely to know or ever me still like want a personal connection with them. I think Dad's sort of a motivation for seeing. You Know How many times they've been married their religion their sexuality like other parts about about them as people. I mean personal sections are just so wonderful because like where else are you going to learn that Jason soukous who who plays the really weird guy on parks and recreation in the good place has severe egg allergy like. I don't know where I would have ever found that out emily our rights about pop culture and entertainment for the Post. ooh That's it for post reports Thanks for listening tomorrow. The story of a family. That embodies the debate over reparations like we said before you know forget it you in all. He can't Louis bought the past looked at the future. You people in young younger people felt it wasn't right and who realized that young you young people who write Martine powers. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post

Jeff bezos Saudi Arabia Washington Post President Crown Prince trump Saudi Crown Saudi Royal Family Professor Alan Dershowitz Mohammed bin Salman Senate Amazon Saudi Arabia. Jeff Marsha Blackburn national enquirer trump Adam mm Amber Phillips
After Saudi Teen Granted Aslyum, A Look At Life For Women In The Kingdom

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

48:24 min | 2 years ago

After Saudi Teen Granted Aslyum, A Look At Life For Women In The Kingdom

"This message comes from on points sponsor rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans. Introducing rate shield approval if you qualify, and if rates go up your rate stays the same. But if rates go down, you'll rate also drops to learn more, go to rocketmortgage dot com slash on point. From WVU are Boston and NPR Meghna charter body, and this is on point earlier this month eighteen year old behalf Muhammed. Oh, Kanoun escaped her Saudi Arabian family, barricaded herself in a Bangkok hotel room and through social media made one request to the world island to asylum. I'll canoe told of the conditions. She endured as Saudi woman abuse. She says she suffered at the hands of her father and brother, for example, the time she says she was locked in her room for six months for having her haircut. The wrong way. I'll Kanoun was ultimately granted asylum in Canada now under Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin salon the country actually has made some of our much of its recent modernizing efforts allowing women to drive cars in the ten sporting events, for example, but I'll Conan story again highlights how those modernizing efforts may be just window-dressing distracting from the persistence of the kingdom's ultra conservative gender. Rules. And the fact that soman says while he's modernizing he's also jailing some of the nation's most high-profile women's rights activists. So this hour on point we want to take a look at life for women in Saudi Arabia now, and you can join us. What do you make of behalf? All canoeing story. Are you concerned about human rights and Saudi Arabia? What role? Do you think the United States should play regarding the rights of women in the kingdom? And if you're from Saudi Arabia or have family there, we'd especially like to hear from you, your thoughts your stories. Join us at anytime on point radio dot org, or Twitter and Facebook and on point radio. We'll joining us. I from British Columbia is Yasmin Mohamed. She is a Canadian human rights activist who was in touch with RAF Mohammed Al Kyun as she traveled to Canada. He has meant is also the founder of free hearts free minds and organization that provides psychological support for ex Muslims living within Muslim-majority countries. Yes-men welcome to on point. Hi, megan. Thank you for having me. It's great to have you. I mean, first of all tell us a little bit about how you first got into in touch with Rehoboth. What was it about her story? And that that so spoke to you and how you helped her sure. So I I heard about relief just like everybody else when she was on Twitter, and she was posting videos and tweets asking for asylum. And so I started to translate some of those and immediately everybody in that community that whole atheist community a lot of Saudi Theus. We all started to feel the sense of urgency because just a couple years prior. There is a young woman named deny the who was in a airport in the Philippines in Manila. And she was doing the exact same thing that Ralph was doing she was tweeting asking for help anybody lawyers. Journalists, you know, human rights people somebody help. Me, and we weren't able to get her support. We weren't able to get her help we weren't able to. To get to her fast enough. And she ended up getting duct taped and put on a plane and sent back to Saudi Arabia and that was two years ago. And no one has heard from her since so as soon as we saw this happening with RAF, it was that impending sense of deja vu, and we all reacted very quickly. And a lot of people weren't sleeping through the nights. Which is kept tweeting retweeting tweeting and retweeting hoping that somebody would would would pay attention somebody with power that will be able to do something. And I think that the biggest difference was when and stuff Heidar whose husband is imprisoned in Saudi Arabia. She's a human rights activist in Canada. She contacted are minister of foreign affairs, Christina free. Lynn, I'd Christa Freeland is the one who welcomed rough into Toronto. No, you you helped us do some fundraising for a half in order to Philip her arrival in Canada. I mean have you been in touch with her since since she's come to Canada? Yes, I have been her and I have been chatting via WhatsApp, and yeah, I sent her that money a few days ago, and hopefully it will it will help her with her new life an in house, she doing this for I know, it's still very early days. But it's you know, she's been through so much. And it's it's a it's got to be an incredible transition for her coming from Saudi Arabia and then to to Thailand and now to to Canada. Yes. Absolutely. It's been quite the ordeal. She's obviously, incredibly overwhelmed and exhausted. But you know, she's really impressive. She she's only eighteen, but she really, you know, she's a powerhouse. And as as difficult as all this is and as happy as I am that she is going to take some time away from media to just. You know, work on her own self right now, I, you know, I'm proud of her. I think she's doing really well. And I it's a difficult thing. You know, she's. As you describe Saudi Arabia earlier, it's your, you know, women they're really have zero control over their lives. And now she has all the freedom in the world. She could imagine. So it's essentially the going from one planet to another. It's going to take a while to adjust. But she's gonna do great things. And you know, we should say, of course, her family is still there, including her siblings. Right. Brothers and sisters as well. Yeah. And that's the difficult part of it, of course, because she misses her little sister. And you know, as as as horrible as your family is to you. And I speaking from experience here when you get disowned by them, and you're all alone still really difficult. It's it's a it's a very, you know, it's been fifteen years for me in that wound has not healed. It's still really sad to know that my kids will never know their grandma. You know, it's it's it's it's a sad thing. And I'm sure it hasn't quite hit her yet because it's all. So new, but you know, she's going to have a lot of a lot of things to to get through. Right. So yes, men help us get a sort of a reality check here because of course, RAF story global attention, and she has spoken or shared very eloquently, as she you know, she says the abuse that she says she suffered at the hands of her family. I mentioned that she had been locked in her room for six months for having a haircut the wrong way. But, but you know, I feel like perhaps we need a reality. Check here. How common are the experiences that RAF talked about how common are they for women in Saudi Arabia? Well, it's unfortunately, very common, and it's unfortunately, very easy for an abusive person to have such control to have such power over the person that they're abusing over their victims. Especially if that victim is a woman so rough would not. Have been able to even go to the police for help. Because if I really her guardian controls everything so she would need her Guardian's permission. In order to even ask for help. You know, she even needs. So they have a place inside Arabia where they put the troubled girls. They put any girls that are causing any problems that are fighting any of the societal norms, and they throw the girls in there, and it's a horrible place their sexual abuse, torture, etc. Etc. And that's what girls get threatened with. And if you go there, you cannot leave unless your guardian signs and approves to let you out. So it could actually be worse for her. If she ended up going looking asking for help. And so, you know, she really saw that her only way out was to get out of the country. Right. Well, I wanna play a little bit of tape here of RAF Mohammed Al Coon. She gave an interview with ABC news, Australia, a little earlier this week. And she explained why she decided to. Risk everything to escape Saudi Arabia unfil- had enough. See all when you kept. When she says I wanted to be free from abuse and depression, I wanted to be independent I wouldn't be able to marry the person I wanted. I couldn't get a job without permission. That's a half Muhammed Al commune in an interview earlier this week yes-men standby here just for a moment because I want to bring into the conversation. A woman who were calling Laura we're using a pseudonym for Laura because she remains concerned deeply concerned for her safety. She's joining us from Toronto Canada. She fled from Saudi Arabia in two thousand thirteen and is now living in Canada. Laura. Welcome to on point. I make. No. So I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit of your story. I mean, I'm sure what wh- RAF story must have resonated powerfully with you tell us what happened to you. What was your life like before you decided to to flee Saudi Arabia in two thousand thirteen? So I was a victim of abuse for about seventeen years, and it was between physical and extreme verbal abuse. I was held and locked up in my room twice by my father once for eight months and the other was for nine months with no food. No drink, and it was like if I would eat it would would have to eat. It would have to be sneaked into my room. And I would only be allowed to go to the washroom. Maybe even once a day who I'm so sorry to interrupt, but who was sneaking the food and drink to you. So in Saudi we tend to have housemates and the housemate felt so bad for me because she saw one of the incidents, and she was always trying to help whenever she would come up, and she would have the permission from my mom to let me out to the washroom. She would sneak in a small sandwich with a small bottle of water and that was for like eight months and then same thing for nine months because my dad's intention was he won. It'd to starve to death to get away from my problems. And maybe hoping that I would die one of the incidents was I've had a gun pointed on my head because of my father because he was really upset at that moment, I was forced into a traditional marriage, and I had to fight for my divorce couple of months after and I was very fortunate that the judge was on my side to get a divorce. What is it that you had done that got this response from your father? So one of these extremely honest. I was my dad found out that I was in a relationship with a guy. He did not see me with him. He only found out that I'm talking to a guy and the other incident was my sister was caught up by the religious police. She wasn't doing anything. She was lost trying to find us in the mall. But because of the way that she was looking and the way she was dressed up. She was not extremely conservative the religious police held her. And then they're reported to my diet. That she was busted in a car with several men in it, which is not true. And so because of those things you as you were saying your father locked you up in your room for eight months and had was trying to starve to death. Well, yeah. Usually when he locks me up, and he only likes me up after he beats me up. Well, Laura stand by here for just a moment. Yasmin Mohamed hang on as well. We are talking about life for women in Saudi Arabia, which hawking about whether or not it's improving following modernisation efforts by the crown prince and Saudi Arabia, or whether that's window dressing, and what role if any the United States should have when it comes to advancing women's rights in the kingdom. We'll be right back. This is on point. This message comes from on points sponsor, indeed when it comes to hiring. You don't have time to waste you need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast. With indeed posted job in minutes. Set up screener questions then zero in on qualified candidates. And when you need to hire fast, accelerate your results with sponsor jobs. New users can try for free when you sign up at indeed dot com slash NPR, podcast, terms, conditions, and quality standards apply. What's unique about the human experience? And what we all have in common. I'm guy Roz every week on Ted radio hour, we go on a journey to the big ideas, emotions and discoveries that fill all of us with wonder find it on NPR one or wherever you get your podcasts. This is on point. I Magnin Chuck Roberti. We're talking this hour about the reality of life for women in Saudi Arabia, and we're talking about it. Because of course, earlier this month, the world's attention was grabbed by eighteen year old Rajavi Mohammed Al Kanoun who escaped her Saudi family fled to Thailand begged the world for asylum and was granted it in Canada. And she she said a lot about how she wanted to flee the repression. She felt as a woman in Saudi Arabia, and we wanna know what you think if you're if you're Saudi or have family in Saudi Arabia. What do you think is lifelike for women there? Do you see advances being made with the modernization efforts that the crown prince Mohammad bin soman has brought to the kingdom women being allowed to drive women being allowed to go to sporting events, perhaps or does the kingdom still have a long way to go. And is this all just a distraction from fundamental changes? That are not happening there. I'm joined today by yazmin Mohammed. She's a Canadian human Rights Act. Vists and Laura also joins us as well. She's with us from Toronto and Laura is a pseudonym because she fled from Saudi Arabia in two thousand thirteen and remains concerned for her safety as well. So Laura I'd love to spend a little more time hearing your story because it is. It is heartbreaking to be perfectly honest hearing you say a before the break about how you were locked in your room for for months at a time by your father had a gun held to your head by him for seemingly innocent things that you had done what happened in to take us to the time up to two thousand thirteen when did you decide you had to flee? How old were you? At that time. I was twenty nine years old. I have been planning for about three years, but deep inside me. I always thought it would be a chance that my father would change. But I like lately realized that abusers remain abusers. No matter what. And you were married though. Right. Yes. I got married in the age of twenty two and then he was a drug addict. So I was trying to fight it for about two months. And luckily enough the judge was able to see how my ex husband was a drug addict. So he stood by my side and helped me get divorced. When in some other cases, you're just stuck in the system until the husband say, so okay? So Yasmine earlier was telling us how about how women in Saudi Arabia because of those guardianship laws the they're not even allowed to I don't even hold a passport definitely not leave the country without the approval of their male guardian. Whether it's their father their brother, an uncle a husband. So how did you do it? How did you get out? So I had to steal my passport. And then my only option at that time because there's one thing I wanted to mention the Saudi government has implemented a system called up shit. So the reason for that is to do any kind of transactions for the city. Zain's all their services to be done remotely. Now. My only option is how am I going to get out without a male guardian permission? So and that case it was very impossible. My only option was trying to convince my family that maybe I have a course somewhere and from there I can take off and I did implement the plan we did travel to one of the Gulf countries. And then from there, they dropped me off at the course. And then from there, I just took a plane to London UK, and then from there to Tronto during that time I had to plan it because I wanted to make sure that I'm stalling my family through the time on executing my plan. And when you it was in when you arrived in Canada's that were you when you requested your asylum. Yes. So so is it that you like landed in a Canadian airport were standing in before an immigration officer and made the request to be honest. No, I've already by that time because it was part of the plan. I had a lawyer. I was communicating with that. I've hired him understand fully what are my rights, and what is required from me to be submitted because I didn't wanna leave anything back, and I wanted to make sure that I don't want to do this. Unlike would make sure one hundred percent I will be accepted because I don't want to go back and then maybe get killed again. So that's how profound your concern was that. If you were sent back, you fear that would yes, I would be easily like Dale or will be thrown indata, Iowa, which is the Saudi female shelter, which is not technically a shelter as I I consider a prison to be honest. Okay. Now just as room reminding folks, we're calling you Laura Laura today. It's a pseudonym because you remain concerned for your safety. Can you tell us why that is because one might think that you've been in Canada since two thousand thirteen it's been going on six years. Now, I I'm hearing that you're fairly well integrated into where wherever it is that you live, but you're still scared. Why? Because currently the Saudi Arabia GM has been extremely oppressing people. Even if you are not in Saudi they might even harm your family or do anything just to blackmail you because they don't want their stories to go out in public because they want to keep their like their vision and their picture, very lake shiny and bright into everybody. In the world that Saudi Arabia is changing. And it's more modern right now. But reality is it's not has have there been any consequences that have befallen your family in Saudi. No thank God. Okay. All right. Well, he hasn't been Maha. Hamad? Jump back in here. Do other Saudi women who have who have left the country and requested asylum in other nations. Do they express the same concerns about still, you know, fearing fearing for themselves and their families even after they've left. Yes. Absolutely. The thing is about women inside Arabia is they are essentially prisoners. So you know, what Laura's describing here is basically escaping from prison. I mean, there are abusers all over the world, of course. But there's no other government that allows their abusers to have such control over their prisoners and or over their victims or inside Arabia's case, they're prisoners. So what happens when the woman tries to fight back the male guardians take that very personally. They they think of it. It it bruises their ego. Right. They think of women as the honor of the family and. A woman fights back. They think that's dishonorable to the family. You've now embarrassed the family, and they need to correct that. And the only way to correct that is to make her pay to make her, you know, get revenge on her for what she's done to the family, and that can happen in in horrible ways like honor violence or even honor killings. And of course, if you're inside Arabian, you fight back you could end up in the prison that that Laura just described or you could end up being killed. But if you're out of Saudi Arabia, the risks are less, of course. But the risks are still there, you know, Saudi Arabia's got, you know, they've got a long reach. We talked about how in in the Philippines. They were just going to send DNA are the did send Denali back and the Thai government was going to do the same a lot of governments easily capitulate to Sidey Arabia because they're such powerful country. I mean, we're seeing now. The women that were fighting for the right to drive or the right or to get rid of these guardianship laws. Those women in a big mass collection of all of these feminist heroes were all imprisoned, and you know, somewhat Abedi. We was has a picture. I can't get over this where she was winning awards for being a humanitarian with Michelle Obama on one side and Hillary Clinton on the other. This woman is a hero. And she's now been in prison for seven months in the world has just forgotten about her. She's just rotting in there as well with with Janelle Heff, flew the woman who spearheaded this campaign for women to be able to drive, and although technically yes, women can drive now she's still in prison, and I say technically because although they can drive they still need a man's permission to get a driver's licence. They still need a man's permission to purchase a car. They still need a man's permission to leave the house. And where are they going going to work you need a man's permission to work you need immense for mission to go to school. They they're still imprisoned. So what when you call window-dressing that was exactly what it is. It's he was trying to show the international community. Look, how reformed Saudi Arabia is wonderful. I am. But you know, obviously after kashogi and that whole bone saw incident. People are starting to see through that. And RAV story is helping to to bring light to the to the plight of women inside Rabia specifically. Well, he hasn't been you mentioned login flew, the Saudi activists who's who's been in prison as you said for many months now we actually have a little bit of tape here from her. She spoke to the New York Times in two thousand sixteen about how she saw the state of women in Saudi Arabia, the succeeded in the identity of the women like coveting her off hiding her name doing whatever Hicks to just forget. And you don't. Want to be forgotten. Cool state forgotten. That's Lujan L half. Slew a Saudi women's activists who has been imprisoned since may of two thousand eighteen I mean, you're talking about being forgotten Yasmine? So he hasn't been Laura hang on here for just a second. Because I want to welcome another voice into this conversation. Sarah Aziza joins us from New York. She's a journalist covering human rights and women's issues in the Middle East. She lived in Saudi Arabia for six years. Her most recent story for the New Yorker is titled the Saudi government's global campaign to silence critics. We have linked to it at on point radio dot org. Sarah, these a welcome to the program. He you so much. I was wondering if you might just you know, sort of give us a clear sense as to these guardianship laws that we've been talking about that had an effect so directly on Laura's life. For example, here are these are these Saudi guardianship laws are they formally are there former regulations in in the country or the informal? How do they work absolately? Well, unfortunately, there's a network of both formal and informal control in Saudi Arabia of women some of the guardianship laws have been slightly loosened under Mohammed bin Salman or NBA says many people call him now. But for the most part the structure itself remains in place. Meaning that women need male permission to travel to obtain a passport to obtain financial services, some medical services education scholarships abroad, and these are just the laws that are on the book. Folks and informally. There are many more restrictions often that women face society has been very very slow to accept women. Fully participating in the workforce, and many many places are still not adhering to even the slightly loosened guidelines of the law, so many women who do go to perhaps obtain a medical procedure that that legally they have a right to now under Saudis slightly reformed laws on they may find that the doctor or administrator refuses to give them that service because they're either under the misunderstanding that women are required to have a guardian for that service or they're simply unwilling to enact these these new laws and prefer to continue to suppress women and deny them any any sort of access or agency without a man there present to. Source it so and that's just on the formal level. So there's a lot of social and cultural repression as well and a lot does defense depend on the family. And so these laws and customs have been effect in Saudi Arabia since the kingdom's founding. Yes. I'm not sure exactly what year it was codified. But it's just a reflection, and perhaps an amplification of some of the most conservative and extreme interpretations of Islamic teaching and practice and really mo-. Many people would argue that it's it's a warping and a twisted version of those Islam teachings. So in some cases, that goes much farther than even what the most conservative current interpretations would imply so it's it's really something really dark and oppressive when it's implemented, and again, I would say that some families do in, you know, empower and allow their women to travel study work, but the doors wide open for people for men to unfortunately, subject women like Laura and many of the women I interviewed for my story to incredible abuse and just a denial of their basic, human, dignity and rights will. So I want to definitely talk about some of the women that. You interviewed for your story. But but give us I want to also be sure that we have a fair sense of context here. I mean, how different is. Is the condition or or the lives of women in Saudi Arabia versus those of neighboring countries in the region. Yeah. Absolutely. So unfortunately on a lot of indices the Middle East is not score very high for women's rights in general, but there has been some some positive movement in some countries countries, like Tunisia, Morocco in some in some areas of Morocco and Egypt Lebanon. We've seen women's rights expanded in in some countries. Women have recently been able to obtain more equality as far as inheritance goes. That's always been a big issue as well. Suffrage divorce laws have slightly loosened in some places. But again, a lot does depend on the woman, social and cultural context, if she's a member of a conservative family, she may find herself still heavily controlled by fathers, husbands, older brothers. But in in pretty much any way, you measure it or look at it. Saudi Arabia is a very extreme example in the region as far. Is what is legally informally enforced on women as of the nineteen seventies. Onward to today. It's pretty pretty much on the far end of the spectrum and the universality of those practices and policies is really pretty striking. When it comes to Saudi Arabia. You can find a subject probably in many countries where families might be privately as as conservative or oppressive. But writ large in the in the way that Saudi Arabia is is traditionally in the last forty years been treating it's women is it's pretty much the most extreme example, there's so much to discuss with all of you. But let me, but let me ask you your piece for the New Yorker was just stunning because you you spoke with some women who had who had left Saudi Arabia and were seeking asylum in Germany, and we were talking a little bit earlier Laura was telling us about how she remains concerned for her safety, even though she's she's been out of a Saudi. For since two thousand thirteen are are we seeing an increase in the the pressures of the fears that women who've left Saudi Arabia is have their concerns been amplified over the past couple of years, even as, you know, a crown prince bin Salman says, you know, he's bringing modernization to Saudi Arabia. Absolutely. So the women I interviewed, and there were so many stories that I could not included in that in that piece. The stories mostly involved women who have fled since NBS came to power. And you know, they unanimously told me life did not one bit better for us. I don't know any women who are driving because their fathers won't let them and their husbands won't let them maybe. No one person. These women are often highly educated women actually, outperform an out number men as far as college graduates go but often their career path ends with their graduation as their prohibited to work outside the the home many women similar to Laura described being locked up starved beaten threatened forced into marriages that they didn't want. And so yeah, then once they do flee Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, we're seeing an escalated campaign of suppression abroad and post demolish, gee, the fear is. Only multiplied we'll sue Ziza and Laura and Yasmin Mohamed please stand by we just have to take a very quick break here. We're talking about the reality of life for women in Saudi Arabia, even as the country under crown prince Mohammad bin so long says it's modernizing we'll be back with a lot more. I'm Meghna Chakrabarti. This is on point. I'm off your Eisenberg. Join me on NPR's ask me another as we challenge. Contestants and celebrities to nerdy, work games music parodies and hundred full trivia, find us every week on the NPR app and wherever you listen to podcasts. This is on point Magna, Chuck Roberti. We're talking this hour about the reality of life for women in Saudi Arabia. And of course, earlier this month eighteen year old half Muhammed, Al Coon, really garnered the world attention when she escaped her family in Saudi Arabia fled to Bangkok requested asylum and was ultimately granted it in Canada. We're joined today by Yasmin Mohamed. She's with us from British Columbia Canada. She's a Canadian human rights activists Laura also joins us as well from Toronto that is a student name for her. She fled from Saudi Arabia in two thousand thirteen after suffering suffering more than a decade of abuse. She's now living in Canada continues to fear for her safety. Which is why we're referencing her by the name, Laura and Sarah Ziza joins us as well. She's a journalist covering human rights and women's issues in the Middle East. Most recently wrote a terrific piece for the New Yorker called the Saudi government's global campaign to silence critics have linked to that point radio dot org. And sarah. I just wanna ask you one more question about something very important that you brought up in your terrific New Yorker piece here just so that listeners can really get a sense as to what's going on. I mean, you write about how many of these women who have successfully managed to leave Saudi Arabia request asylum. Sometimes even get get a granted they remain fearful outside of Saudi Arabia, and that fear has escalated over the past year or two. I mean, they're getting strange visits from from from people in the middle of the night. They're getting requests to come to the Saudi embassies and the countries they're in there. So it seems as if you were writing they're so concerned that they are even shutting down social media accounts, even ones that that they had been running anonymously. I mean what what's going on? What what is this campaign of oppression that you've been reporting that's happening on women who managed to leave Saudi Arabia? Yeah. Absolutely. It's a really just a chilling phenomenon. That doesn't it wasn't just isolated to these women in Germany. I've spoken to people in Canada and the United States of the European countries who report after arriving in in their country of asylum being contacted through various means whether it's Snapchat and Twitter or Email or phone calls. What's that with warnings from strangers who claim to be working for the Saudi government or who may not claim to work for the Saudi government? But are clearly pro government warning these women at times that they'll be sorry that they that these these strangers these people. No, no, where they live know who they are that something may happen to their family or just other more vague warnings. There's also been a lot of women who've told me that they get unsolicited phone calls from the embassies of Saudi embassy in their countries requesting that they come in for an interview without any reasons being given. There's really ominous things especially now in light of the death of Jamal Shoji, very strange and unnerving sort of encounters women mostly report that they go nowhere near the embassy that they would never subject themselves to putting themselves on on sovereign Saudi ground ever again. But it's it's really strange and terrifying for them, and and indeed has continued to haunt them as they've tried to start their new lives in Europe or North America. A lot of them told me I was so excited to finally start. Joining on online campaigns calling for the end of guardianship. I would never have done that in Saudi Arabia was too dangerous. But I wanted to start tweeting or doing something like that. Once I got here. But I you know, I've shut down my Twitter. I'm trying to protect myself. I'm trying to protect some of them have even been followed by people or approached by people speaking Arabic to them warning them that they are going to be made to pay for disgracing and lying and slammed. During the reputation of Saudi Arabia, m b s and these are women who weren't even political activists. They simply are trying like Laura escape imprisonment and violence at home. So we've mentioned repeatedly Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, because of course, these stories that we're hearing about the lives of women in Saudi Arabia are happening at the same time that that that that so been so mon-, you know, he he launched his vision twenty thirty campaign his plan to increase women's participation in the workforce. I mean, he basically had I would say of highly effective PR campaign that the west largely embraced about his modernizing efforts in the kingdom. So I want to actually play a bit of tape here. This is an interview that Mohammed bin Salman gave to CBS Nora O Donald last March, and they talked about women's rights in Saudi Arabia and the crown prince went so far as to tell Nora. Uh-huh. Donal that he says women can choose how to dress are women equal to men. Absolutely. We are all human beings. And there's no difference colony shut the laws are very clear and stipulated in the laws of shariah at women were decent, respectful clothing. Like men that deal. This however does not particularly specify a black abaya or a black head cover. The decision is entirely left for women to decide what type of decent and respectful tire she chooses to wear that's the Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin some speaking to CBS last March, Laura lemme ask you when you hear that what's your reaction? Honestly of I just wanna say do the minimum at least before you focus on what we wear. Meaning I really want to find protection for for for victims of abuse, which there isn't. Tell me more. Meaning. So let's say Mike case if I would ask the Saudi government and seek the officials help my only option would be to be thrown in there. I which again as I explained it's a woman shelters, basically a prison. You can't have visits. You can't use your cell phone. So what kind of places that? And yet if you wanna get out of that place, you still need your meal. Guardian permission to get out. So what am I going to go back to my abuser? Or just wait there until my prince charming come and propose a Mary me. I see what you're saying. Right because Nora O Donal asked been someone about a women equal to men, and he he answered by by talking about clothing, right? I see what you mean. Yasmin Mohammed though, I'm just wondering there have been very brave women's rights activists in Saudi Arabia. They're they're still art. Of course, we have the three of you here. Speaking to us today. But I'm wondering how fast can we expect the pace of change in a nation like Saudi Saudi Arabia when we're asking for what seemed to be very deep in transformations in very deep cultural practices there. Yeah. Absolutely. So the thing with Saudi Arabia is it practices shitty. Law in the same Iran practices that as well. But Saudi Arabia has this extra layer of the guardianship law that really no other country has it quite like that. So I think that there is hope that the guardianship law could be abolished because NBS is really at a crossroads right now. It's very very very important for Arabs inside Arabian, specifically to feel proud of their country and to think that the whole world is looking up to them and admiring them. So somebody like RAV or you know, any of these cases that are all over the media right now talking about the, you know, criticizing site Arabia. Criticizing the government, these kinds of things are really going to make them stop. And think and say, what are we gonna do can we implement more laws to try and control these women even more and I say, good luck to them because these. Women are literally superheroes. Or can we loosen these laws and allow women to have more freedom? And because there isn't a lot of support for these guardianship laws. Like, there are no other Muslim-majority countries that have these guardianship laws. I think that it might be time for him to let those go. But of course, sugar has lots of other laws that really need to be addressed as well roths case, the reason why she would be killed if she went back home is because she denounced a slam publicly which to do that inside Arabia and in fifteen other Muslim-majority countries to publicly denounce the religion the punishment for that is execution. And of course, the punishment for being home for being gay is is execution. So there are lots of laws that still need to be addressed. And it's gonna take a long time for those laws to to get addressed. I think because they are they permeate much much further in. Into the Middle East and intimacy majority countries, but I think that the guardianship laws. I think there's hope for that to be abolished pretty soon. Right. Well, you know, what I've been asking callers to wait very patiently so far and we've gone through quite a bit of the hour. So lemme least let a couple of folks in here. Let's go to Omar who's calling from Savannah, Georgia. Omar, you're on the air. Hello. Yes. I've worked up there. I make this quick. I worked in Saudi Arabia back in the eighties in near nicer, actually, a number of hours from on the south of the country and had up close and personal witnesses to how women are treated and most I've worked with the with the bedouins, and they didn't even have schools back, then the girls, and the women were the absolute control of the men of of the family and most of the work around, and you know, the day to day work, which was which was brutally hard in the conditions there. And I think so mon- is is he's throwing out, you know, these things. Okay. We'll let some women Dr. We'll let them go to the movie theaters. But in fact, I think he he's really hardening position. On what your guests are talking about to exert control. And to your point, you know, how long will it take take decades and decades just to get girls educated? They were no schools or anything. So I think with the killing of show Jeep when just him speaking out. He was in the upper echelons of society for women to speak out as even more dangerous. And I think there's an atmosphere of fear. I mean that the crown prince has sequestered his own mother from the king. So I'm not really optimistic. Well, Omar, thank you so much for your call, Sarah Ziza, I have a question for you. I mean, I I'm wondering, you know, Yasmine was saying earlier that perhaps there's hope about these guardianship laws. Do you see the United States as having done or perhaps even possibly in the future? The desire at all to exercise any of its diplomatic leverage with the house of sowed with crown prince been soman to help advance any these these very profound women's rights issues. We've been talking about. Oh, I wish. It absolutely could have that kind of leverage. But unfortunately, under multiple presidents in both parties, we've seen a reluctance to really take a hard line on human rights issues, and many of us were holding our breath, really hoping that the incredibly almost unbelievably gory and gruesome story of Jamal Shoji as it came to light would finally push on the administration to really force m b s to start taking some steps that were concrete, and that would fundamentally change the condition of human rights and women's rights in Saudi Arabia, and when that failed to be significant enough to push the Trump administration to take that line. Unfortunately, the story of an eighteen year old girl when when we have misogyny running so deep in our own country. I don't forsee the United States being a standard bearer on this issue as much as I I wish it would be. But I do want to say that there is I do agree that there is hope. That the tides may be changing in on the more grassroots level DNA Ali failed to garner enough political and social support for her campaign. It was very similar to a half just year ago, but post-coup Shoji it seems the world is a little more awake and a little more eager to call call NBS into account. So he does know the eyes of the world are watching he's incredibly sensitive about his reputation as image. Hence, I think the intense desire to suppress stories like Laura's, and like the women that I've interviewed and interacted with but they're incredibly strong, and they refused to back down there. Fuse to stop fighting with each huff. She emboldens many more women, and I'm hoping to see that critical mass swell and the women in jail and other human rights activists to be addressed. And yeah, not forgotten. Is it possible that a generational change could happen right here? Because we have we have a huge percentage. Of the Saudi populace being what under the age of thirty. And we also have technology as well here. I mean, these are forces that potentially could be beyond the control of, you know, a of the Saudi Royal family could could that be what drives evolution in the country. I think that is where where the hope really lies, and you know, I wrote recently in the Washington Post actually about the the image of half as this teenage girl wielding nothing, but a cellphone facing off against multiple governmental officials from multiple countries, and she prevailed because in the end there are so many more amazing and and resilient women than there are members of the Saudi Royal family. Then there is a crown prince. And I think that's the the panic and utter brutality. The disproportionate response that he has to to mild, even mild critics such as dramatically Shoji really shows his his inner desperation and his sense of isolation. He he knows that his support in the in his country is far from unanimous. He's walking a very thin line. And it's really untenable. Should he continue down this very extreme? And isolated path will yazmin Muhammed. We have just about a minute and a half left here to go. And I want to give both. Hugh and Laura chance for a final thought today. But I was just wonder what your what what's the last thing you'd like to share with us in this conversation Yasmine? The last thing I'd like to say is for any women that are listening in Saudi Arabia who are starting to question all of this propaganda. That you're always hearing about if you go west, you're going to be a prostitute, and you're going to be homeless, and etc. Etc. I'd like you to actually take a look at how the women are thriving and surviving here in the west. And you know, hopefully, Laura can speak to this too. That whatever price you have to pay for your freedom. It's worth it. Yeah. We'll lower. We've got about a minute left to go is at the lesson that that you believe your life in your story carry hundred percent. So what would you like to say to to women who are listening? I wanted to tell them that RAF was very fortunate to be saved by the UNHCR, and whomever is under so much pressure or so much oppression or even being abused. Save your life. If you ever decide to run away, just please, please. Please. Planet properly, and we're willing to help with whatever it takes. And would you have a message for any you know, governments that that have interested in in Saudi Arabia in the region. I would say stop slaving Saudi limit. Yes. Well, Laura joining us today from Toronto she fled from Saudi Arabia in two thousand thirteen in as we've been saying that, of course is a pseudonym for her because she continues to remain concerned for her safety, Laura. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you magnum and Yasmin Mohamed, Canadian human rights activists and founder of free hearts. Free minds has been thank you. So very much. Thank you for having me Magna, and Sarah as a journalist who covers human rights and women's issues in the Middle East. And who wrote the recent terrific piece for the New Yorker entitled the Saudi government's global campaign to silence, critics we have a linked to that at on point radio dot org. Sarah, it was a great pleasure to have you. Thank you so much such a pleasure Magna. Thank you. I Magnin talker. Bardy this is on point.

Saudi Arabia Saudi government Laura Laura Canada Saudi Theus United States RAF Yasmin Mohamed Middle East Arabia Toronto Saudi Royal family Yasmine Saudi Crown NPR Crown prince Mohammad bin Salm Arabia Sarah
Ben Hubbard on MBS

The Lawfare Podcast

45:00 min | 10 months ago

Ben Hubbard on MBS

"Political reform is just something that he's not interested in he's never talked about democracy he's never talked about trying to find ways for citizens to play a greater role in choosing who represents them or choosing how they're governed. This is not what he's interested in. He's very much an autocrat. He wants to have the power. He doesn't want there to be a lot of checks and balances on what he does. He doesn't want people to criticize. He wants to get credit for the things that happened. And so while we have this kind of dramatic social opening going on you also have a quite strict authoritarian crackdown. I'm Jacob Shorts and this is the law fair podcast March thirty first two thousand twenty. Saudi Arabia continues to be a mainstay of newspaper headlines whether it be oil price war with Russia or for news about Turkish indictments in connection with the murder of journalist. Jamal Kashogi but making sense of Saudi Arabia's defacto leader Mohammed bin Salman known widely as. Nbs can be a difficult proposition. He's made some social reforms lifting the ban on women driving and taking power away from Saudi Arabia's infamous religious police but he has absolutely no interest in political reform and he has a propensity to take impulsive and remarkably violent action both in the foreign policy space and toward perceived enemies within Saudi Arabia. And Beyond Ben Hubbard Beirut Bureau chief for the New York. Times provides an account of the young prince's rise in his early years in power in Saudi Arabia. I talked with Hubbard about M. B. S.'s. Rise to power his influence on domestic life in Saudi Arabia his relationship to jared Kushner and to the trump administration and about the White House response to Kashoggi's murder. It's the law fair podcast episode. Five Hundred Twenty eight Ben Hubbard on M. B. S. sexually. WanNa start in the same place that you start the book which is with the two events that happened in the fall of twenty seventeen that for the most part. It plays in the same hotel on the one hand. There's M. B. S.'s so-called Davos in the desert and on the other hand there's this roundup of prominent Saudis talk a bit about both these and what they what you represent about Mohammed bin Salman's tool instincts. Yeah I mean this was a really great point to kind of start the book because we really see these two tendencies in his personality that that I think drove him. Throughout his rise really come into fruition and really become very clear for people versus. He hoped he hosts this investment conference called the Future Investment Initiative and this thing is sort of vaulted in its ambition invites business people heads of state Investors Billionaires millionaires from all over the world to come to Riyadh and he basically goes out of his way to convince them. Listen we we know that you guys have preconceptions about Saudi Arabia. You may think it's kind of a strange place. You may think that we're stuck in the past. We follow this a severe form of Islam. You're wrong we're going new places. We're going to do amazing new things. We want to shake up the Kingdom. And he gives very dramatic declaration about how we don't want to have anything to do with extremism. We're GONNA crush extremism today. He gets a standing ovation. He announces kind of the headline projects. That he announces are these mega cities that he plans to build in Saudi Arabia. One is an entertainment city. That's GonNa have amusement parks and movie theaters and things like that. That he wants to develop some islands in the Red Sea into kind of a fancy ECO resort. And the sort of capstone. Is this thing called? Neil which is this massive sprawling city that he wants to build in the far northwest of the country. It's kind of this isolated somewhat barren area on the Red Sea and he says they want to spend five hundred billion dollars on it. They WanNa make this sort of hub for innovation for technology for business. They WANNA have it run on solar energy they want to have robots to all the servicing and. I mean it's incredible incredible ambition for what this guy wants to do and you know. I think a lot of people are pretty impressed. I mean definitely you know. A lot of people were skeptical. That some of these things were gonNA come about but I think there was also a lot of enthusiasm. People were pretty used to a certain kind of Saudi Arabia. And I think it became clear to people attended the conference that this was going to be a very different kind of Saudi Arabia. That this Young Prince wanted to develop and then everybody goes home and you know people are sort of thinking. Wow do I WANNA put my money here? Do I want to get it? Do I want to invest in this place? What do we think about this guy? Is He for real? And then November. Two thousand seventeen a few weeks after the conference sense you have officials from the royal court and from the secret police. Suddenly Round Up. Hundreds of the kingdom's richest and most powerful people and the way this works is that people started getting phone calls and they will get a call and say oh the king would like to see you are they will get a call this. Oh the crown prince would like to see you. People would show up. They would be relieved of their cellphones. If they had guards their guards would be dismissed. Their personal belongings would be taking as if as if they were going into a prison. And then they were taken to the Ritz Carlton which is in. Very very fancy hotel. They were checked into rooms told to leave the doors open and basically kept there. And then you know Roy. Court officials eventually would come around for quote unquote negotiations. The government billed this as a massive crackdown on corruption. Basically saying in the kingdom has long had a problem with corruption or going to end it. We're going to get to the bottom to the people who are locked in the Ritz are people who are accused of corruption. And we're going to recuperate. Any ill-gotten gains in so they have these quote unquote negotiators of these people. And in the process there's a huge amount of coercion including some physical violence against some of the detainees. And you know they wrap it up and a few months and government announces that they had you know recoup era aided about one hundred and six billion dollars from these people who'd been locked in the hotel so you know if the first the investment conference had really been assigned that Allenby SS hugely ambitious. He wants to do things differently. Any wants the world to come to Saudi Arabia and be excited about Saudi Arabia. The message of the Ritz was very much. I'm in charge. Nobody else stands above me and even the capital that was once considered private capital is. GonNa come to my service. I'm GonNa Marshall It for the things that I WANNA do in Saudi Arabia. And I might do that in ways. That don't necessarily respect the rule of law and that might even imply employ violence right and sue before we get into more the details of what. Nbs does as defacto rule. I want to zoom way out for a second and Saudi. Arabia is a monarchy controlled by a huge single family. But it's famously opaque thank you describe the inner workings of the family as sort of a black box. How does the hierarchy the royal hierarchy work in Saudi Arabia mortar the various roles that MBBS occupied in his quick ascension while so in one thousand beginning in two thousand fifteen King Abdullah the previous monarch passes away and and some man who was embassies father becomes king? Nobody's really paying attention at this point but it's the first time that many of us heard his name and this this includes journalists including myself who had been reporting on Saudi Arabia it also includes diplomats people intelligence services who are sort of charged with researching the royal family and trying to identify young princes. Who were on the way up and who could become ghetto? Movers and shakers in various ways and many of them. Nbs never really came across their radar. Because he'd never really done anything all that significant his background. He didn't have sort of a shining resume. That would you know point amount as being somebody who could it will likely rise to great power in the Kingdom? We start hearing his name. I think the first job that he got if I remember correctly while he was put in charge of the royal court so he sort of becomes the gatekeeper for his father. The King He was made the defense minister. Put in charge of the military which you know that seemed okay. Because his father had been the defense minister for a and so it seemed like he was following and that way and then very soon he launches a new military intervention in Yemen. Making it very clear that he was going to use the Saudi military in a way that previous leaders had not used it. He's put in charge of the board that oversee Saudi Aramco the Saudi oil monopoly. So basically giving him oversight of the the kingdom's Economic Crown Jewel. He later you know. They SORTA restructure the government and they create these two super committees one. That's in charge of economic development. He's put in charge of that. There's another that's in charge of security affairs and sometime later he will put put in charge of that. As well. I mean the guy descends up with tremendous number of jobs that that really gradually put the main levers of power in Saudi Arabia into his hands. Yeah and so the big one that attracted the attention of Western observers. Maybe not at the time but at least later down the road is the the war in Yemen talk a bit about what his role in initiating and managing Saudi patient in that warm? What do the what is the Saudi role in the civil war? But I think the thing you know the one thing that's often overlooked in the west. Is that the Saudis. Did Not Start The war? I mean originally. This was a Yemeni civil war. I won't go too far into the details but basically you had you know. After the Arab spring you had basically put a political chaos in the country. You had a huge process to try to put the place together and move on after the dictator was toppled. There's a sort of somewhat scrappy rebel group known as the Huskies who were based in the northern part of the country. Along the Saudi border. They were unhappy with the share of power that they got under this new agreement and so they basically rose up you know with their arms and came down stormed into the capital took over the capital and they basically sees a huge chunk of the country. I mean not a huge land mass of the country but but a significant part of the country because it includes the capital city and some other population centres. This makes the Saudis very nervous. Because you know they've known the WHO these for a long time they've been invested in the Yemeni government which basically collapses and in everybody flees abroad and ends up some of them in the south of the country. Some of them fleet Saudi Arabia. The WHO these make it pretty clear that they are in terms of their alignment in the region that they sand with the Iranians. They opened up direct flights Doron back and forth which makes the Saudis. Very nervous as time goes on they're GONNA use a lot of belligerent rhetoric against Saudi Arabia and eventually GONNA start launching missiles over the border into Saudi Arabia so from the Saudi perspective. I think it's it does make sense why they felt the need to intervene in the situation. But I think that the the criticisms that are that are leverage against the Saudi against the Saudis have to do with the nature of that intervention. You basically have the Saudis for decades and decades of spent huge amounts of money on military hardware predominantly from the United States but also from the United Kingdom and other countries. And they buy really expensive kit they buy the fanciest fighter jets they get they get bombs guidance kits all sorts of things and the the understanding had always been basically that the Saudis were never going to use these that this was sort of shopping at the Saudis did as a way to underline their relationship with United States But they were never really going to do anything with it well. Mba becomes defence minister and says. Well what do you mean we're not going to do? We have these fancy weapons. Let's put them to use. And so you know you have. Saudi pilots suddenly doing tease over Yemen dropping bombs and and it becomes very clear quite quickly that they don't. They're not very good at this. They don't they've never fought a war before certainly not on the scale and it starts going bad very quickly they you know declare the entire homeland of the huskies. The entire province that they're from military's own which people considered a potential for war crimes. Because you know it's also full of civilians who just happened to live there. They over time bomb a lot of civilian areas. They belonged bomb civilian infrastructure. They had a few weddings. They hit one very prominent funeral and kill a bunch of people and so becomes very clear that even if you know even if you can understand the reason that Saudi Arabia felt the need to get involved in the Yemen war there's lots of criticisms to be raised about the way that they prosecuted the war right and one of the other things that I found interesting in. The book is so Muhammed Ben. Simmons father has lots and lots of sons an MBA is far from the oldest son. What are sort of the reasons why King Salman has such an attachment toward mb? Snl You mention that NBS unlike some of his siblings and like the other royals he's a true. Saudi grew up in Saudi Arabia. And that sort of a source of pride between father and son but what are the other reasons? Yeah there's a huge difference when you look at sort of so. Nbs is he's a he's the first son of one of the later wives. King Solomon has five sons from his first wife. Mary had two three two of them have passed away. But you know a lumber of these first sons have incredible incredibly impressive resumes. One has appeased from Oxford. Another was the first Arab first. Muslim astronaut flew on the space shuttle Discovery You know these these people who ran media companies who founded investment companies. They studied at foreign universities. Many of them spend a lot of time in the United States in the United Kingdom. You know had very close relationships with some of Saudis Western allies. But when it comes time for you know when when someone becomes king and it comes time to choose the son who is going to sort of be his closest assistant at first and then later become the crown prince he goes for him yes and we. Don't you know we can't sort of look inside of his head? I mean at the end of the day you know. He's an absolute monarch and it's not like he's ever going to be held accountable for his decisions or you know. Journalists are not gonna sort of sit him down for an interview in heaven to explain his decision. But you know the more I reported this. It became very clear that he just had a very very close relationship. With with Hamad bin. Salman many of his older sons were sort of traveling. The world and doing their various things envious stuck very close to home. He never studied in a foreign university. Ever spent significant time abroad And so while his father was running the capital Riyadh which was his main job in before becoming king. Nbs was right there with him and he basically shadowed his father saw how he worked got to know the kingdom through his father's eyes and his father developed a tremendous amount of trust in him and so when it came time to choose you the one of his sons who would follow in his footsteps he chose Mohammed bin Salman. Yeah and and so once N. B. S. sort of a sense to de facto ruler status. One of the things that you note is the his foreign policy. Priorities are very very different from the Saudi leaders. That preceded him talk a little bit about that. Well it's it's it's a bit the priorities and it's also just the style I mean the Saudis historically they tended to work very quietly they were very comfortable doing sort of back room diplomacy and a lot of checkbook diplomacy. They would sort of meet people quietly. They would have their allies in different countries. They would bankroll them whether they were politicians whether they were journalists whether they were sort of other people who were involved in politics in the end but they worked very quietly. Nbs comes in. It's very clear. He wants to have a much more hands on approach to how Saudi Arabia engages with region. We see this in a number of ways I mean we. We see it first and foremost on the intervention in Yemen. He was knocking rely on diplomacy to try to figure out how to get. Get the WHO. `This out of the capital of Yemen. He was going to you know. Send the military and bomb them. And that's what he did. We see this much later when it comes to Qatar in you know we have the block it of Qatar. Two thousand seventeen. You know there had been diplomacy back-and-forth in Saudi Arabia. And some of its other allies in the Gulf at they'd had previous kind of dust-ups with Qatar. And you know he basically decided to take it to the Max. We know more. These quiet talks. We're going to boycott them. And we're GONNA use all of our media assets to tell everybody that we accuse them of supporting terrorism and doing a bunch of other nasty things and he really took it to the Max and treated them in a very different way than previous. Saudi rulers would have I mean you we also see it in the Caper of what happened with Saad Hadidi. Oh he was. You know unhappy. With the way that politics and Lebanon was looking and unhappy with the way that the Saudis historic ally and the Lebanese political system had been doing things and so instead of in all trying to work quietly to find a way to to adjust things he summons him to Riyadh and forces him to announce his resignation so became quite clear that this was not the the sort of quiet dealings quiet back room and checkbook diplomacy that we've grown used to from the Saudis was was not going to be the way that NBS was going to do things going forward sued. Taco. You just alluded to talk a little bit more about what what exactly happened to Saad Hariri. Who was the? He's the Prime Minister of Lebanon? What happened was the Prime Minister of Lebanon at the time? Yeah this was simultaneous with the Ritz. Had actually happened the same day as the Ritz but Just to give people a little bit of background. Saudi Arabia Lebanon is unlike Lebanon is particularly difficult and complicated country in the Middle East. Just because you have no single group that is a majority. We have a minority of Christians minority of Sudanese a minority of Shia and a minority of a number of other groups and so it's threes in Lebanon has never had a dictator and the reason that sort of Lebanese politics. So complicated anyway. The Saudis had always looked out for their interests in Lebanon these more recently by basically working through hurries family. They were very very close to his father. Rafique cady who was the Prime Minister? After the civil war he was then assassinated in two thousand five. And so then the you know carrying on this relationship felt Assad Hadidi and so he took over and became prime minister. And you know and I think you know. Basically what happened is N. B. S. in two thousand seventeen when this happened looked at. Lebanon is an investment in sort of wondered. What are we gotten from? This and Basically looked at Lebanon and said you know we put a bunch of money here. We've invested in Saad Hadidi. We've invested in his political party and his media organizations. And what have we got? And we don't really seem to have a lot of influence Hasbollah. Which is this arrangement. Backed militia and put a political party is still the strongest force in the country. They have a military force. It's bigger than the much bigger than the Lebanese military. And Saad. Who's supposed to be? Our guy is in a power-sharing government with them and so you know so I think again you know we can understand why he would have been frustrated with what the Saudis had been able to do in Lebanon but the solution that you know he and his aides come up with is just pretty crazy. I mean he. Basically summons in summons a haughty to to. Riyadh they take him to a House. They put a suit on him. They hand him a piece of paper with the statement that he did right. They put a TV camera on him. And they make him read it and basically force him to announce his resignation and You know as I was reporting this out. I mean I talked to a number of Lebanese officials who were involved in you know involved in the situation afterwards a number of foreign officials and diplomats who are trying to figure out you know. How do we sort of? How do we end this bizarre situation and everybody was baffled and they you know they just said you know it seemed like the Saudis expected that if they did this there would be some kind of an uprising among the Sunnis in Lebanon? Unin at that would cause a fight with the Shiites in Lebanon and that would bog down Hezbollah and there was some talk about replacing. Saad with one of his older brothers whose another in a well-known businessman and region. But that didn't work because the family didn't just but again all these things were you know if you had gotten together a number of Lebanon experts and said. Hey what do you think? Do you think this is GonNa work. They would have said absolutely not NAFA WAY to Lebanon works and at the end. You know you had even a lot of hotties political foes in Lebanon standing up for him and saying you know. This is too much in A. We may not agree with the guy politically but you can't just kidnap him and force him from office and so you know there was this kind of pressure from all around to get him back. In a few weeks later he got on a plane flew to France made a few other stops and then ended up back in Beirut as kind of a hero and and rescinded his resignation shortly after so that's NBS on the foreign front but domestically talk a little bit about the survey atmospheric change induced by MB s in Saudi Arabia. What was it like to be in Saudi Arabia before ambience? And then what's it what's it like? Now you find yourself in the book at Harley Davidson Rally and their number of other examples. You mentioned American dance concerts wrestling events and stuff like that yeah again. There's there's a very strong duality here. That's hard to really sum up because I think people tend to either want to see 'em bs has all bad or all good so let me let me talk about both of them It was very clear that MBA is. He's very much a son of the next generation. I mean he's not one of the elderly monarch he somebody who grew up using facebook playing video games reading magazines and COMIC BOOKS. American and Japanese comic books and this was the world that he wanted to live. And he didn't WanNa live in this hidebound kingdom with these very traditional strict rules about this and that and and he knew that other young Saudis like him were kind of going crazy and so he wants to los at loosen up the social codes. And I think it's you know and I think that he's made tremendous progress on this. And there's many reasons to think that this is going to be you know that this is GonNa stick and so you know what is one of the earliest things he does is. He takes the power away from the religious police to arrest people. You had this. This group of religious police were basically the on the ground enforcers of Saudi Arabia's very strict interpretation of Islam and they would control public places and make sure that women were properly covered and make sure that men and women who are not related. We're not socializing with each other. And you know if they ever got reports about people drinking they would break into their homes an arrest them and things like that and you know the Saudis who kinda wanted to be left alone used to really hate these people and one day we wake up and there's a you know royal announcement saying that. They no longer have the right to arrest people he just defend them right away and then they start the this entertainment drive. He basically says you know. We're losing all this money because Saudis who have money. Don't WANNA be here. So when they have vacation they get out of town. They drive across the bridge to Bahrain where they can go movie theater and they can have a beer they go to do by the people have more fun. You know. More money go to Geneva. They go to Paris. They go to London and he basically realized this is a huge drain on our economy. And we need to find a way to keep some of this money at home so they start opening movie theaters and they really turbocharged this entire entertainment drive. And so now you've got you know there's all kinds of events it's almost hard to keep up with them now but you've got monster truck rallies and professional wrestling tournaments and dance contest. They had outdoor electronic music festival. Not Too long ago and and this stuff is happening all the time in the these are things that you just would have never imagined happening in Saudi Arabia. Before he came onto the scene. You know you also have sort of changes with women. They've made it very clear that you know. They've loosened up a lot of the restrictions on what women can wear in public places. They loosened the restrictions on the ability of men and women just to mix socially in public places and then obviously two thousand eighteen. They lifted the ban on women driving. Which was you know something that for decades had sort of been the primary symbol of them. You know how strict Saudi restrictions on women were just out you know. Basically how oppressed women were in the Kingdom and they got rid of it and so you know I think that s does deserve a lot of credit for really pushing these things through because you used to always hear that you know if anybody were to try these things that clerics would push back the Conservatives would rise up and he managed to pull it off and I think that in a life inside the kingdom will be a very different place for young people than it then it was before so that's the first part of it. The second part of it is that the the the biggest thing that is missing from all of mb. Ss proposed reforms as any kind of political reform. I mean he's talked about social reform. He's talked about economic reform but political reforms to something that he's not interested in he's never talked about democracy. He's never talked about trying to find ways for citizens to play a greater role in choosing. Who represents them or choosing how they're governed? This is not what he's interested in him. He's very much an autocrat. He wants to have the power. He doesn't want there to be a lot of checks and balances on what he does. He doesn't want people to criticize him. He wants to get credit for the things that happen. And so while we have this kind of dramatic social opening going on. You also have a quite strict authoritarian. Crackdown you have a number of waves of arrests of different sort of sectors of society. You know you have an intellectuals religious clerics of various stripes than you have you know. Round of women's rights activists both women and men who get arrested and You know there's just been this whole wave of people who sort of end up in prison. Some of them are put on trial. Some them are not some of them are released and sort of kept under either house arrest or banned from travelling abroad. And you know making it very clear to everybody that you know you you need to be onboard board with this program or you need to keep your mouth shut and the same time. There's kind of an electronic aspect to the authoritarianism boast in terms of manipulation of social media and in terms of hacking going after people's devices and figuring out you know getting into distance phone so you can figure out who they're talking to and so on that on that side. It's SORTA gets very nasty. You talk a lot about how MB s weaponize is the Internet in his favor Saudis are very online and he him and his deputies sort of figure that out and develop like you. You called an offensive information operations within the kingdom. Talk a little bit about that. So let's use example of twitter so you know in the United States. Some people are on twitter. Some people aren't you know it's it's just kind of part of the social media universe you know. Some people are facebook. Some people are on instagram twitter. Kind of one of the things that some people are into and in Saudi Arabia. Twitter twitter is absolutely central. I mean everybody seems to be on twitter. Some people have multiple twitter accounts and Saudis. Partly because social life has been kind of traditionally so constricted on life is incredibly active. People spend a huge amount of time on their phones. They're some of the world's highest consumers of Youtube they're massive users of twitter and so twitter is just very much this this outlet for many Saudis to the rest of the world. It's how they get. Their news is how they understand. What's happening in the kingdom? It's how they communicate with each other and and there was this whole sense when twitter started spreading in Saudi Arabia. There were a number of articles written talking about how this was going to democratize information. You know that you couldn't hide information anymore because people would find out about it on twitter and and dumb. There was kind of this optimism in that turns out sort of looking back to have been very ill-founded because I think NBS and his deputies they just basically realize that it wasn't that hard to manipulate the stuff you know. There was a combination of you. Know sort of using bought campaigns. They basically realized that if there was a conversation going on that they didn't like it didn't really take very many accounts to get involved with it to change the direction of the conversation so they would either get in there and they were sort of muddy the waters by providing sort of alternative information. That may not be exactly true but that sort of muddy the waters of what what was going on in the conversation. Sometimes they would report content that they didn't like and get taken down and you know maybe twitter evaluated and find that it wasn't actually offensive but by then the wave had passed They went after a lot of people in real life. They had a whole program where they unmasked people who had anonymous accounts and a number of them were arrested and ended up sort of on trial or in jail or and so it became very clear over time. You know there was a period when we used to watch Saudi twitter very closely to find out what Saudis were thinking you know and that is almost over now. I mean they're still. They're still good information on there. And they're still many Saudis who are public profiles that they use to share information but but they did make it very clear from the top that you know the rules were if you if you agree with mom had been some man and if you agree with the reforms than you can praise and you can talk and you can gush about how wonderful everything is. But if you're unhappy you better just be quiet about it or you know we're GonNa come for you and so in terms of the U. S. Saudi relationship so MBBS and other Saudis did not get along particularly well with the Obama Administration. But things seem to have been different with president trump and sort of the defining tie in the US. Saudi relationship is this connection between Mohammed bin Salman and Kushner whose president son in law and his senior adviser. Talk a little bit about that. That the first meeting you talk about between Kushner and the Saudis becomes clear. Kushner does does not know very much at all about Saudi Arabia. How does that evolve into sort of the Lynch pin of U. S. Middle East Relationships? What I think. It's one of the more remarkable things that that the Saudis did and I think it was kind of. It was a profound success for mb s and and quite surprising. I think in two thousand sixteen. You know the Saudis like many people expected that Hillary Clinton was going to be the next president of the United States and they knew her and they you know from her time the secretary of state and I think they just assumed okay. She'll be the next president and we'll deal with her and then all of a sudden DONALD TRUMP WINS. And there's a sort of panic moment where they say you know. This guy has a record of sang pretty nasty things about Muslims and saying some pretty nasty things specifically about US including during the campaign. And what are we going to do like? We need to be close to the White House because it's hugely important for our security. And so they put together a delegation and send them to the East Coast and they go and basically to do a fact-finding mission about this incoming administration and find out. Who had you know? Who are these people? And how do we deal with them? They interview a number of trump's business associates. They interviewed a bunch of his political associates. They meet with jared Kushner and the sort of a profile that they come back with this. I think was very accurate and very smart. They said you know. These people are not traditional politicians. They're dealmakers their business people. They're interested in the bottom line. They don't really know very much about the Middle East they certainly don't want don't know much about Saudi Arabia. What they do know about in the Middle East Israel which is what they really care about and And then they craft their approach to this administration based on that and it ends up being this wild success so much so that Donald Trump after his inauguration decides that the first foreign trip of his presidency is not going to be to one of the US historic allies. He's not GonNa go to the UK or to you know which is what I think. Probably every previous American president had done he makes his first foreign trip to Saudi Arabia and the Saudis are just overjoyed and they they make it more than just a bilateral visit. They decide to invite all these heads of state from across the Islamic world. They turned it into this gigantic summit and and that really lays the groundwork for this relationship between the trump administration and and Mohammad bin Salman and sort of going on underneath that is the relationship with jared Kushner Kushner meets MB S and. You know the strangely. They actually have quite a lot in common. I mean they're both in a young men who have great ambitions who have been given tremendous power by older relatives. And who basically don't feel like. They should be confined by the traditional ways of doing things. They WanNa do things differently and they want to see if they can get different results than their elders and so you know they form this relationship and they communicate a lot on what's happened other messaging programs and to Jared Kushner sometimes travels to Saudi Arabia and meets with bs out in the desert. And you know when I was working on this book doing it to us. In Washington there was a lot of frustration and people from other parts of the government that said Yeah. We don't really know what they talk about. I mean if a US diplomat goes and meets with the crown prince or meets with other senior. Saudi officials at diplomat is gonNA come back and write a cable and he or she is going to say well. Here's what we talked about. And here's what we came away with and and this didn't always happen with the Kushner meetings and so there was always kind of question mark and the rest of Government. About what are these guys talking about? The sort of flash point moment in Saudi relationships with the entire world is the murder of Washington Post columnist Jamaica Shoji what was Kashoggi's relationship with the kingdom. And then what ended up happening to him so Jamal Khashoggi you know. He became very known in the West after he showed up in Washington and actually after he was killed but you know by then. He was in his late fifties and he had spent many many decades as part of the Saudi establishment for almost all of his career. He had been a Saudi journalist. Who was close to the powers that be? I mean this is somebody who worked for Saudi newspapers. Somebody who edited Saudi newspapers. Somebody who worked as an adviser both officially and unofficially for a number of Saudi princes. You know he met with the Kings he and he. He was very much to somebody you know. You can basically any diplomat or any researcher or any journalists that you meet who worked on Saudi Arabia over the last twenty years. They all Nujoma hushovd g because he was very he was cordial. He spoke English. He was accessible and he was willing to talk and a lot of us counted on him to sort of figure out. What the Saudis were up to? Because as you said before it can be a very opaque place and when I started covering Saudi Arabia in two thousand thirteen. Jimmy was incredibly useful. You know something would happen. There would be an announcement from the Saudi government. We don't understand what's going on. I would call him. He would answer his phone he would say. Oh yes. I think that. They're worried about this. And I think the king wants to do this and it was very very useful and that was the role that he played and played very successfully for many many years and the the breakdown between him and Hamad and some non actually was a result of Donald Trump. The original sort of problem between them was because of Donald Trump win. Trump wins the election. This audis is sort of going. This process that I talked about trying to figure out. How do we? How do we approach this administration? And how do we develop a relationship with them? Jamal doesn't really go along with the program. He criticizes trump for saying a lot of nasty things about Muslims. He's quite critical of trump's style on twitter he He writes quite a. He writes a column at the time. Basically addressing the Saudis. And saying you know we shouldn't be scared of Donald Trump. We need to prepare for him because he could be a very different kind of American leader than we're used to. He speaks about Donald Trump and a number of public events and suddenly gets a call from the royal court. Saying you know you're done you've got up you've got to shut up. They banned him from social media. They ban him from going on television talking to anybody. They banned him for publishing articles and so he goes into this period of hibernation where he's just silent and You know a number of people who are used to seeing Jamal sort of out and talking about things wonder what's going on. He eventually gets a warning that you know. He could end up being banned from leaving the kingdom where he could get arrested and so he packs leaves spend a little time in Europe and then lands in Washington. Dc where he had lived previously and Start setting up a new life soon gets an offer to start in writing columns for the Washington Post and You know writes a number of columns that are very critical of NBS. And that sort of takes us to the story. That I think your your listeners are probably familiar with so talk briefly about what what ended up happening to Kashogi so once. Jamal starts writing for the Washington Post. He becomes a V. He becomes probably the most prominence. Saudi critic Mohammed bin Salman. He writes a quite positively about a number of the social reforms. These are things that even Jamal himself had been calling for for quite a long time in his own writings. But he's very critical of the authoritarian. Aspect of what? Nbs is doing. He talks a lot about just plain freedom of expression and says you know we used to be able to talk about government policy and if there were things that we didn't like we criticize it and now we can't do that anymore. When the campaigns begin that hit some very hard because a number of his friends are arrested. A number of people that he was very close to end up in jail and so he writes about that and he's just kind of interacting from Washington with what. Nbs is doing and BS will announce a new initiative and Jamal Will Kinda ride critique of it in the Washington Post and this makes the Saudis very angry. Not just because he's a dissident. There are plenty of other Saudi dissidents out there but I think it was much more the fact that Jamal had been part of the establishment. He had been inside the House and now here he was sitting. You know not only abroad but in Washington. Dc writing for the Washington Post you know for a predominantly American audience and Criticizing the crown prince. And I think they just saw that as a profound betrayal. And so then you know. Jamal is trying to move on with his life. He meets a younger. Turkish woman falls in love decides. He wants to get married in order to get married in Turkey. He needs to have proof that he his last that he was divorced from his previous wife so he goes to the Saudi consulate to get it. They're surprised to see him and they say welcome back in a few days and we'll have your paper ready. And he does exactly that and he walks into the consulate. Any never comes out It comes out over the next few weeks through basically leaks from Turks that he had been confronted by a team of Saudi agents who flew in specifically to meet him and they had killed him and then dismembered his body and packed him up and somehow made his body disappear into this day. We don't know where it is and how does how does the US respond to all this among other things included. You mentioned that. They're in constant communication with the Saudis. After this and there's some curious details about their handling even the call transcripts with the Saudis well specifically the White House. I mean the. Us There's a lot of anger in many parts of the US government and this had been building you know I think the people in the CIA had been angry about his treatment of the previous crown. Prince who was considered a very close ally of the CIA and counter terrorism operations. A lot of people in the State Department had been frustrated with a number of things that he had done and I think the general authoritarianism of his of his rise a lot of people in the Pentagon were frustrated with the Yemen war and felt that you know we gave them all these weapons. And we've got all these training programs and here they are killing civilians and it looks terrible for us so you'd had a lot of frustration with him growing parts of the US government. But this is really when you know the relationship that he had developed with Kushner and stand with Donald Trump kicks in and that they end up basically providing him with firewall that you know they talk very frequently and Donald Trump speaks frequently about Kashogi and I have a section in the book where he confronts them on the phone and basically you know speaking to NBS and the king and says you know. Did you guys know about this? Did you order this? What's the story with his bone? Saw You know he tells them? I've been in a lot of hard negotiations. I've never needed a bone. Saw very hard on them and and they never really give him any information. They never acknowledge anything. And you know the big sort of quote that brings to the end is Donald Trump. Put out a famous statement saying I don't know if he ordered it. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't but it doesn't really matter anyway because Saudi Arabia is so important to us basically as an ally in the Middle East and as a purchaser of American weapons that we don't really need to punish them for this. And you know that I think for a lot of people just showed the extent that the trump will go to to protect this relationship into talk. Talk a little bit about your experience reporting on the book so you are also a journalist. Was it easy getting people to talk to you. Was it easy to get visas? And how do you feel like the Saudis took to your reporting on the country? Well it sort of. It changed over time. I began going to Saudi Arabia in two thousand thirteen under the previous King King Abdullah and then it was. It was difficult to get visas but it wasn't particularly difficult to work. I mean it's always a bit of a closed society. It was hard be says. I mean I would get up seven days single entry visa. I would go for seven days and then I would leave and then maybe I would get a two week beside and again it did get better over time. Partly you know win. Bs came in and did get better. I think that one of the talking points of the NBA era was openness and transparency and for awhile did extend to foreign journalists they did make it easier and I was able to get some longer term visas and so that I could kind of come and go and and I think it was the amount of time that I spent there even before. Mb s really had come to power. I mean I got to know a lot of people. I worked on a lot of different subjects. I did certainly did some stories that they didn't like but I also did many stories that the Saudis really did like so that kind of gave me a in a wide network of contacts that I could come to later on when I really start focusing on him and then I think it was sort of the turning point in two thousand sixteen two thousand seventeen when you know. We started writing about him. I think a little bit more aggressively than they had expected in a we a colleague. Mike my Calling Mark Mazzetti and I broke the story of him spending about a half a billion dollars on a yacht. They were not very happy about that. You know and then. I think the way that we covered harvey eighty the way that we covered the Ritz. They were definitely not happy about that. I think they felt that we were being much too aggressive on him. And we were not giving him enough credit for the things that he was doing inside the country and so you know my access kind of started gradually drying up and then by the time. I really got down to working on the book. I was having a hard time getting into the country and had a good network of contacts. Either people that I could talk to remotely because I you know. They knew me entrusted me that I would protect them if I needed to. And then other people who were abroad in. Oh there's a whole network of people around the region who either have you know who have close links to various parts of the Saudi royal family. And so you know. I've met a number of these people along the way as well and so I was able to meet people and you know in Lebanon and Jordan. Some people in London was able to sort of go back to those contacts and it became quite clear. I mean by the time the Saudis knew that I was working on a book. Relationship was pretty bad and they made it pretty clear. They just didn't WanNa have anything to do with it. They were going to keep it at arm's length and they were not going to facilitate it. Anyway yeah and so to end with one of the maybe the biggest takeaway for me from the book was sort of how aggressive. Mba says he tells is as quote where he tells an adviser you know that he takes no half measures. How do you go about thinking about what he might do next? Or whether there's any chance of him sort of doing away with that aggressive impulse and evolving into a partner that the country like the United States would be more eager to embrace. Why I think the main thing to remember is that he's still very young. I mean he's now thirty four years old and he could be around for a very long time. I mean if you know. When his father passes away most people expected he will then become the king unless something kind of extraordinary happens. And if you live to be as old as his father he'll be empower until sometime in the two thousand sixty S. So you know. We're we're still pretty early in what could be a very very long era of MBA in the Middle East. And so I'm a bit. You know I. It's something I thought a lot about in the book. I mean. That's a bit risky to do a book about somebody whose only thirty four years old and who could be around for many more decades so I tried to focus very much on sort of what we know about him from this. I four to five years and not sort of predict so much where he's going in and what I found in just talking to you know diplomats business people you know other people engage with Saudi Arabia's. There's just kind of this question that everybody has in recognizing how young he is. But there's this question of is he learning from these incidences learning from his mistakes you know. Does he look at you? Know the murder of Hush. Oh Gee does he look at the Yemen war and he say wow. We really did that wrong. And that really. That really costs us a lot in terms of either our international credibility. Or you know I wanNA do a different next time you know. Is there a possibility that I think the question is really is what we've seen so far you know? Does it spring from deepen his personality? And if that's the case I think were in a war on the way. A lot of turbulence in the region you know there's there's also possibility that he could be learning from these and that he could mature and to In all wiser Monarch Okinawa. Tried to perhaps avoid some of these more rash decisions and we just don't know. I mean he's thirty four years old. We'll have to wait and see how it goes. And that is all the time we have been Hubbard. Thank you so much. The book is M. B. S. Thank you off here. Podcast is produced in cooperation with the Brookings Institution. Thanks this week to Ben Hubbard for coming on the show. Podcast is produced by Gen potty. How and your music is performed by Sophia? Please take a minute to rate and review the law fair podcast and sheriff's on twitter and as always. Thanks for listening.

Saudi Arabia Times Nbs Kings Yemen United States Donald Trump twitter Middle East Saudi Aramco King Salman Riyadh Lebanon Mohammed bin Salman Saudi government murder Washington Saudi royal family Washington Post Ben Hubbard
How does USMNT measure up against Mexico? Plus, good idea/bad idea ahead of transfer window

ExtraTime

1:01:00 hr | 1 year ago

How does USMNT measure up against Mexico? Plus, good idea/bad idea ahead of transfer window

"You are listening to extra time written it by continental like oh my goodness i mean what what are we doing here i think is a trusted source for the streets at everyone who give their opinion absolutely ridiculous by me i don't care anymore to dream my bank account everybody else here in every single day goes into the into the laboratory and they're trying to come some great stuff you guys in from new york new york you are listening to extra time driven by continental from eighteen t studios in midtown manhattan i'm andrew review my partners in soccer always smiling always optimistic charlie david what's up man how we doing out here spying on practices spy gate a little too close to home hub they've got his back vanishing welcome good you feeling refreshed i know i feel like i wish i saw the case i feel good but i wish i could pick up a new mexico connecticut her no i did not the saudi royal family live for was it overcast all the time now nose up at dinner nothing no wow it looks like when you went up demeanor can side of the table is taken offense right now pretty darn right i mean he's still have got used a lot of sunscreen especially in the yeah you know the the top hendrick white is person ever send he's a pale side of the table identified with you all right here's well we've got a big show for you talking world champions the usa women delivering when you talk the talk and you walk the walk you basically do whatever you wanna do and that's what they're doing right now entertaining instagram stories just say the least i have a party like that in a long time i ever will talk about them in just one second the gold cup is over it was a first some a slog for me joy and ending was not his joy for for the usa with one nothing in mexico so genital santos with the goal in the seventy third minute we will talk about winners and losers on this squad will talk about how they measure up to mexico how gregg berhalter a measured up this summer in his first term as international manager that's coming up at of course major league soccer the transfer window is about the open will run through some ramp rivers real quick a all the news the winners the winners cause were not supposed to do losers anymore and i feel about that entrance fence yes senators friend parenting guy but it is i just wanna make sure these feelings are considered an were not scarring anybody long term he china get your son into the same nursery has jj radic and his wife i'm trying to get my son into wherever it is just do holdings kid goes because that is like you know it's like celebrity central yeah john legit like it'd be john legend john in clear event all good good ashley i don't think i bought one the social pressure of that a boston version of tom brady's a daycare what no but we are indeed oldest coed school and the nursery school in the country while emeco nursery school that is very new england new england a winter's now winners in a also the mailbag coming up let's get right to it you us women's national team world champions backed back four stars give it to him got the job done road through another win no matter what the yankees up yeah that's true all hanging gun pinkies up in the air from now on i just think it's a step too far guys ten wildland idiots just a step to the sensibilities of t r a you know i think the people who were writing about that were actually offended or were they just like we know if we say that were offended about this were gonna get some eightfold british people yeah i think they were actually so i think that's usually if they don't have a great track record leave that team yeah a couple of hundred years later they can't get over it all right well it's just it's okay you can go for a dip all right i felt this entire tournament inspired not just by women by the way by every single team every player in this tournament debut and i watched the opener together and then i ravage my ankles so i was sitting on my couch for the better part of the last month in montana is incredible i would tell you that my fiance does not agree and i'm currently like racking up to do list items like constantly having done much but this tournament it just it made me feel good and he was winning and winning in the way they did and becoming part of i think you said of doing part of the cultural like guys like him they inserted themselves into something bigger and more incredible than soccer often does in this country to be honest with you it if it ever reaches those heights it made us all feel something i'm curious because you know the tactics all that stuff honestly doesn't matter anymore the champions what you felt final whistle during the tournament during the run today like what bubbled up inside of you from this tournament pride i felt pride instant pride the way they came together as a team they they were inspiring the women in this country a but also women around the globe about fighting freer dream and you know playing in quality stadiums with so many people this crowd is packed i wish that the the the game against france happened in the final and not in the quarterfinals because that would have been just that much more ethics spectacle you but what how these girls played i think what impressed me the most was the quality when i watched them i said hoping he is one of the best strollers i've ever seen period her first touch her awareness like many women couldn't take it from her to three girls defending her could not could not stand a chance of at taking the ball her feet so that combined and with just the tactical awareness thee respect that all these other players and across the globe would would you know look at these women as as role models as icons because everything they're doing here in this country they're they're growing the game for the rest of the world everyone's watching them as an example and a first class they're demanding more in there is more coming in right now there's a lot more to be done of course and you about the legal situation with usa swimming in the federation but sponsorship coming indian w so in the wake of this on a league wide sponsor from budweiser you have a deal with he has been broadcast some of the games that's all well and good what'd you guys feel what'd you feel amazing offering i dunno doyle can't go here does he feel do i feel i felt uncomplicated joy for for like almost a month straight which is not feeling i'm used to it was you know there were times where i wanna be you esta play better question some of the the personnel decisions and substitution patterns from jill alice but that's just that's part of being a fan well what i you know what i saw in that team played a it filled with uncomplicated joy it's just so nice to see a team you're rooting for with every fiber of you're being go out there and be really really good and then hoist the trophy at cnn and say yeah we absolutely deserve this we earned this and i think that was part part of it because so often we talk about teams that play with a chip on their shoulder and they come in they say nobody respects us nobody gives us a chance and like i get it i totally understand white athletes often have to do that d u s women's national team was never gonna be able to play that cars they were never gonna be able to like nobody's giving us the chance nobody respects the they went out there and like they don't think that everyone who's gonna beat them now could they be thailand yeah right yeah i want i mean they even had they even had that commercial leading into i don't remember who is for the leading into the into the tournament they're they're like yeah david versus goliath you remember that story because it's the one time david goliath where goliath were gonna stop you end they take off from the very beginning is almost like you know you see those you see athletes celebrating put their hand of the year from before the tournament it was almost like yeah heavier come on star talk give us some fuel and then they they just used it in turn they did just using they embraced it and that's what i like and they added more more serious fire group of of people group of women say were the best in the world at this now we don't care what you say oh by the way we're gonna be exactly who we we are there's no hiding from it there's no like obscuring are identities of the way we're approaching this are who we wanna be who we want you to see it says it's all gonna be out there and we're gonna deliver and it's just kind of it was it felt liberating at times don't just see people like this is why were living it and it's it's glorious almost dropping f bombs and if like you guys all that there's also no question about it swinging the group stage spain france england another one like you couldn't have had a harder run to the final and they took care of business every single game the final may have been the easiest game they played a three weeks at that point so that's impressive just watching you know it's rare that you watch greatness a team win back to back world cup's you look at international soccer international tournament's it's one slip here there it's a penalty kick you accidentally gave up it's you know a slip in the box to give up a goal in the beginning it's those moments and then you lose and it's one off games look at what germany did in the men's world cup last year look at what's happened to brazil over the last twenty years like it's too easy the happen and it did that's how good they were that all those moments occurred you have the penalty kick against england and he's still step up and you get the save from there like those moments just continue to occur over the course of two tournament from soccer point of view is the best women's world cup i've ever seen so that's exciting and they need a ton of investment coming in south america in central america especially in the women's game you look at a lot of these women they play college soccer and you ask their players come from the united states they're not producing players at the highest level you look at from mexico arguably what a top ten richest league in the world and yet on the women's side they've just started over the last sears is promising but it's not nearly close enough that they're not in the world cup and the uss the best team in the world in their region like that doesn't make sense and it shouldn't be that way but from a quality of soccer point of view is the perfect wants to lay down on the couch and watch it mattered it mattered as well to me the usa their best for last because that performance they put on against a very good dutch team there the european champions the newest strangled him just absolutely killed him they balled out of the players who you want to step up mostly stepped up and it was 'em to see that kind of soccer in a final you don't get that like i thought it was a better more comprehensive performance then four years ago against japan and we'll remember what happened in that game so everything culminating with that kind of performance hosting the trophy alex morgan taken another picture with her pinky standing the moment like delivering an also understanding their moment and their opportunity and having fun with it like this is fun how is this not but we just want a second straight world cup title like don't get too serious with me right now pinkies up 'cause we just did this thing in our about the going a basically a big party tour which is pretty dope you remember twenty eleven alex morgan comes off the bench scores the goal now her breakout moment roosevelt was often world got the bronze ball she may have been the second best player in the tournament rubino is clearly the first two so beneath us up there too i think rosier five rows of amazon and all those players but whatever it is i'm excited to watch the next generation of this team now move forward in march madness outcome per b star in the back and watch and usa and her ran and lavelle but roosevelt and ball she can by the way she's gonna play the outfield this fall washington spirit they got a couple of games there go support and go support your local side i say this all the time just go soccer games like it's a lot of fun it it doesn't matter what the occasion is and in this case in w sell needs are support so go support it also having eric you get together parade on one yes you do i fly out on wednesday degrees and i'm kicking myself i mean i'm in atlanta for yeah open cup one would say about this well it'd be fine with me i know that for sure it's gonna be amazing time if you're in new york go check that out twenty twentythree is gonna come sooner than any of us qena you know it time i've learned fraternity goes really fast lympics which is a massive you're probably got stralia maybe as we all live for cbd men side like maybe gumbo maybe once you get a get a moment like this woman ever i think that would die happy at that point i by the way because he saw how upset europeans got with the usa swimming that oh my god i imagine if the movable level anyway yes it's like well you gotta imagine because the minute play in the final two as you might have known in the gold cup and they did not win the final one nothing mexico and jonah don't santos and the seventy third minute a beautiful goal beautiful backheel from roll him in as to set it up this was the sixty ninth meeting between us and mexico it was not nice u s weighed in i just didn't land on the post game show last night and so i just felt that i i wanna go back to mexico eight titles gold cup titles you must have six years his opportunity to even that scoreline they are not gonna even scoreline in finals against mexico in the gold cup mexico's not five and one against the u s in the deciding game two thousand seven phil harbor that's the only usa beat mexico in the final jonathan david for canada with the golden boot winner in this tournament let's just start the game what did this loss tell us how far are the u s by mexico because the conversation today on twitter in the group chats wherever it might be for you in for us is that mexico's be team handled the usa pretty easily and it just shows how far we are behind those people you might be able to do not that's not a game yeah it's not the game yeah so what did you say i thought he was better for the first thirty thirty five minutes and i thought a for about the last hour mexico was the better team and they did it by dominating central midfield 'em one of the the shortcomings i think of this particular group and it exacerbated in part by a little bit of i think tactical and flexibility is that we often lose the numbers game in central midfield and lunch 'em wants topped martino really figured that out it ended up becoming kind of one way traffic for about thirty minutes there in the second half about the fifty of meant to be eightieth minute it was it was only going in one direction a which was frustrating but we knew coming into it that that was wanna be achilles heels for this usa team but at the same time if you watched the first half hour specially you saw usa team that was doing more than just going toe to toe with mexico they were creating the better chances and in fact if you look over the course of the game views expect goals a u s they won't be expected goals battle one point six to one point one the difference was it was a game of moments moments in the mexican veterans you know him in as in the box to to jonathan does that does they recognize the moment sooner than the frankly less experienced usa players did and michael bradley shot unfolding and he just i think lacks the the pace to put out fires started by someone else a someone else's negligent in that i mean west mccartney's just not tracking the runner 'em so all of that sort of culminated but if you had set it we were sitting around the table a month ago and you offered us fifteenth to total goals when they expect the goals battle every game show that we have a consistent pattern of play and know how we wanna create chances and do so lose one built in mexico in the final and a close well played game i every single i'm gonna i'm gonna have you take away all of that in literally just said that you watch usa team play with that level of intensity in confidence that they played with those opening forty five minutes you would've taken that yeah like we haven't seen this in three four years and that's when i think i texted you in the first half was like this is awesome 'cause this felt like what it used to look like also from the mexico point of view like this is the rivalry you want and yeah you had like making fun of diego line as high that wasn't real and it was a friendly in there wasn't that energy there was that like it felt like two thousand seven literally in chicago the same game and it felt like the u s you know the players dislike the mexico players they dislike them back there was the little you know west mckinney is getting in fight here left and right hector marino falls overdose he's back speaking of recognizing the moment mexico players like no video review at this is are moment here comes the joke here go old school old island back an old school chippy we you know getting he's the guy chicken among the heels like all those extra facets of the game that were once like you know you you some every game in and out and now they're gone because of vr they brought it back and i loved it i i felt like oh this is this is exactly what we've been missing this passion the ball 'em getting kicked off of pulisic by chocolate rodriguez an josie runs over and it's like hey you know what you're doing like you start something let's go i love that and to be honest that first forty five minutes i thought this is what we've been missing for so long and we finally have it we we gregg berhalter pulled it out of these guys and got them to understand and believe in each other in believing the crafts believe in the country understand why you're playing the game and what it means to everyone else not only to to the guys in the locker on the field but the rest of the country when they watch you show show what it means to you give give the inspiration and they did i believe i was a full unbeliever watching that first forty five i said you know what this team is is destined because it's really just the start because it is a process it's learning the new tactics the new coaching scheme understanding that the different formation the players within a the formation all playing together for the first time getting a grasp of what real international soccer is especially against the mexican side now this is the mexican side missing oh there's massive stars which i also just screw all right let's let's everybody was auto hector herrera attack tito like that's three players let's eat everything would restart if the uss missing three start you had just christian pulisic off the off the field mclaren missing tyler adams they were missing deontay yet and they were missing john anthony brooks like usa also syncing starters retail well then jimenez isn't a starter if is the guy that you're all talking about like okay that's a fullback he's thirty one years old he's not one for the future that's just one little piece about if they're not very goes on owes agreed chucky is a huge star i also would argue tyler adams is a huge yeah i think i think just on balance tyler adams impacts d u s more than chucky lozano does for from mexico not say the tyler adams is necessarily a better player and he's clearly an upgrade over tuna specially like that would have been pretty tough forever handle carlos to on the other side fair but he's taken himself out of the national team not being that's so when when i hear no three fences and i'm like yeah are you really trying a cherry but not as not having the right right here point i would say mexico still in terms of the player pool has has more quality u s but it's not a huge gap the gap is just about what we saw yesterday i met him yeah each team was missing three four maybe five really high level guys who would have helped goes deeper which hurt the uscca's we had no steps right we have impact pack subs because they impact subs were on the starting team critic ruled on in for george morris she thought christian real donald good on the air like actually like his movement there on the wing sometimes when i do in central midfield jhansi came in for joe's in this match and then with daniel love it's in protecting rematch admitted they had scratch i was it was and we were all like kevin kevin has a rumor were watching the game he's like wait hold on what my mind is blown right now what are we doing and why what what represents progress for this team and maybe it's not the substitutes the bench and what we learned about getting rid i just talk about the subs first before it 'cause i wanna give berhalter his do i i didn't agree with them i still don't but this is reported from the scrum i think they're gonna quote from sam stash killer in a twitter he said he idea for bringing on wrote on what the hell possession to help out in central midfield which makes some sense that we were getting overrun artist out the door was about fresh legs josie disagreed with that jodi said after the game he's like i don't know subbed out i felt pressure is good to go 'em maybe they i test disagreed with that little bit judge as a competitor hopefully next place u s he plays angry any place where ninety minute well the thing is even so you don't take him off i think i agree with you you don't take off just because all it takes is one moment of brilliance service from striker and we've seen it time and time again throughout the years that a player can be not involved eighty five minutes and then all of a sudden he gets a chance at eighty nine minute whether it's holding up the ball and tournament defend josie can can create those moments in you take them off knowing that josh he's only going to give you one way of playing one lane up and down not affective and you lose a lot when when you don't have a guy like josie even if he can't move around as effective as he was he still has a presence and he's still takes up to centrebacks and then the third one i agree with all that by the way and then the third one love it's whisper west move the wingers inside get full backs except the flank if you notice the last twenty minutes of the game ten minutes of the game over long it was a it kind of turned into a three for three with michael dropping back the two center back splitting widening love it's on one side and kennedy on the other side getting all the way up while the wings pinched side it kind of work be washed had more you know had probably their best chances in the second half of the day you should have done earlier today we're gonna throw all numbers forward anyway i agree and it did the whole thing speaks to we we need more talent coming through the ranks the good thing is that we have it are blessed to you twenty groups beat mexico are less three you twenty groups made the world cup quarterfinals we've seen some of those guys matriculate into the first team already then there'll be more on the way i wanna read a couple of quotes here just a kind of speak to progress in where this team is going and also your feeling dave about how we haven't seen this in a long time this sort of togetherness the sort of the effort the energy the dr tim room said this and of course he was couvert he knows that feeling afterwards after that game that disaster he said we really don't know where we were going quote there's a system there's a way we wanna play in wanna go about things and there's a culture within the team the way we've grown together the last six weeks if something ever gonna take forward josie author but on this team a long time and see that initiative and see the guys you're gonna play it forward and play out of pressuring keep the ball in a game like this that is progress in my opinion what's the biggest bit of progress the hang your hat on usa as gregg berhalter hasn't been coach for very long and this is the best performance we've seen that's progress it's simple is that the team has gotten better since he took over but especially in this tournament they got better as the tournament went a long they were better through the group stage curious how would they really bad performance in the knockout stage sage and there were a lot of young players that was their first ever time playing any big international knockout competition game and they played better against jamaica and they played even better against mexico better opposition bigger moments bigger crowds as a team went along that's progress that's literally progress there's nothing else you can do and if you wanna say there's some people detracting saying well are we better than we were in two thousand seven like with the game i brought up i dunno but we were worse before so we gotta get back to the same not better 'cause we have you had established professional playing in europe gaming game in and game out in the respect level and they won that game so obviously they they can't be better but when you talk about where this program was two years ago to where it is now now you have belief you have a future look forward do you have players who were actually developing and you look at that you twenty squad a lotta guys have a lot of potential were who are on the cusp of playing consistently with the first team in europe that pumps me up the performance foreman's yesterday the especially the first forty five when you see christian pulisic when he gets the ball and how dynamic he is with the dribble on the jump off the dribble is movement that pumps me up guys are proud to wear the jersey now it's not about you what you're what you're situation is at the club level if you're getting enough playing time when you're there it's i finally get it like you look and it feels like a family these guys have come together and that's what gregg berhalter did i mean the first priority already for him was having everyone understand that this is something that has special it does not come off and get a chance to represent the country and if you do so make use of it appreciate it because it it can be taken away from you at any moment so take advantage of this opportunity to come in with here you brothers and grow as a group who won the most speaking of that who grabbed that opportunity for you guys the player that at the end of the tournament summer and look at themselves look but their situation going forward and say yes sir i'm in a good spot they'll do aaron long starter now you know even when john anthony brooks comes back okay you move aaron long to to right center back he played left center back is throughout this tournament i thought he was arkansas consistently are best player throughout the tournament reveals a yeah i read you can wasn't on the roster coming into the tournament was a starter in the final i think he's a better player at that position younger the nicolay ama and i think there's gonna be one of the guys now fighting for a spot that left back you're gonna bring yelling back in but we've already seen forum for gregg berhalter that he might be aware in his system in the way he wants to play i think reggie can win it for that reason all the winner for that reason 'cause tyler adams potentially play in now i think tyler adams tyler adams is probably a winter despite the fact he doesn't play it just kind of exacerbated the need for his president's leadership his energy in midfield for me it's aaron long as well his ability to come in and continue to grow this is a player that i initially saw in twenty sixteen and i thought to myself he is athletic he's got a big body uncovered a lot of ground but it's the soccer brain the soccer i q is not there but aaron long i saw yesterday he's well aware of soccer i q and where he needs to be at certain times and putting out fires great year athletic uncovered ground i would i would expect to see him in europe after the season he's he's made that much progress and i think a lot of teams in europe when you watch him play his presence and his ability to to cover ground in in you know be a presence that unita for a center back this would be one of the guys at the top of the list some other winners probably young left backs out there saying hey that's an open position that's a whole maybe i can be the one that phil we will see going forward forward also a spot though we maybe need a little bit more depth and josh sergeant plant on the regular as well before we get out of here finish up with the gold cup the uss specially doyle i want your starting lineup they must win game in a dream world in which there are no conflict no injuries you know no extenuating circumstances and why ended up for me back the front step is obviously the the keeper 'em i think i would go with reggie canning right now over d andre oddly and i just i've never trust a d andre yelling defensively he he just lax awareness a at right back a like even after for five years in the premier league he's still kind of the same player so i would go read you can in 'em and then long john anthony brooks maybe michelina at leftback unfair credits you know tim tim rain 'em i thought he played his best game of the tournament against mexico even when they were overloading that side he still held firm he was still pretty good but let me that i left back we've seen too much search of him not being good at a central midfield tyler adams is the six and then weston mckennie who was not good against mexico 'em by i still believe in his talent and i hope that he's gonna get two thousand minutes of the central midfield refer shock of this year 'cause he needs the reps you have the track that run i don't know how you don't track that run 'em hopefully he gets a chance to succeed with michelle get mckinney impacting comical taxing comical nineteen years old he tracks that run i have no doubt about it he would attract that runs so those three guys in central midfield 'em pulisic on the left josie josie up top tim well the right i think that's young talented team i wouldn't be entirely thrilled about taking a team that young to say they as tech a a in expecting a result i i think the team that would take it's lumps a but it's a team that could do some absolutely dirty work september that's the next international window if you ask those are likely friendly's because that's the sort of nations in qualifying in canada in cuba go back to back in that window the u s will join the nation's league in october cuba and then canada a book i have one more topic from the gold cup this is always the most fun i remember back in the day when john carlos gonzalez dominated the saying like oh i can't wait to see a minimal s and then he came up for very short period of time and immediately got signed to europe so who's the player other than you are room can't take him 'cause columbus crew picked up the curse out goalkeeper immediately got their starter they needed once insect stuff and it's headed to a europe who do you wanna see him a lesson i know where i'm going with this david guys deep cut day as well and go what do we got who the players you pull it out i could name fourteen but i'll just i'll just stick to three the first one stephen sabba from haiti played in central midfield former usa international has had a ton of injuries has worked his career back around i thought he was phenomenal in this tournament in possession in once again he's in american so it's not like after bring a guy in the news national spot a my deep deep deep deep deep deep cut his byron bonia from nicaragua mainly 'cause he just balls out i don't have any guys we plan on the left and i really loved watching in case you're fuller on costa rica who start at right back they signed a lot of veterans in this tournament but there is that sign of the next generation which i think alan cruise is a part of a role and they all is well and i think fuller when you talk about what gregg berhalter is trying to do with tyler adams fuller did it to perfection costa rica he played a right back central midfield hybrid buddy press high up the field and was able to win the ball encounter presses he's able to put in decent service when he gets down outside and he's twenty three years old playing currently in costa rica and when you look at fullback in mls if you can get a decent player from catholic kamar lawrence like michael maria works out pretty well for you charlie you're driven a little bit bigger yeah i'm i'm gonna i'm going big okay you're dreams were big just landed friendly andrew luck outta the center midfielder from of course how he's twenty seven years old it'll be twentyeight next month but what i saw from him this tournament ability to go box the box be impactful whether it's defending with this tackling is into the patient or taking shots creating opportunities for for these cars are attackers i was left impressed and i thought to myself if he were to come down unless he will make an immediate impact need help out a lot of teams in this league you just got signed in january cardiff city of course they got relegated then so in the championship right now decent amount of money paid for at that time but maybe maybe maybe he likes comeback the north america maybe some seems a little splash home he was definitely quality in this tournament doyle anybody a stick out to you on the field as the haitian guys of course in the shadow andrews jumped out to east you can't husky former portland timber a cd did he is when you're a former soviet leader i mean he's twenty seven years on long island answers on bacteria yeah he's twenty seven years old he's american born is american citizen a dual citizenship so he wouldn't take up an international spot like brings brings back the mls he's not obviously gonna be the guy who conducts the game from the back but everybody in this league needs a in prime age twenty seven year old six foot two two hundred pound center back who could win the ball near and that's what he the entire the entire tournament that's what he did a i thought he was really good frenzy perot up top a former colorado rapids draft pick a they decided to get joe mason instead a probably probably should sign frenzy had i think eight or nine goals last year in belgium really good stronghold up play maybe the most impressive performance overall his name wrong but remco a best some teeny the head coach kerr so a you know dutch kerris out do all national he's you know played in in the errative is ea twenty years ago he's been managing basically ever since then the way that team came out and played game after game after game building from the back having clear ideas of what they want to do with the ball hotter moving around not just for themselves but the poll whoever they were facing around around as well like if you're in mls team you got at least make a call kick the tires see if there's like maybe he's a good academy fit or something like that but like i like to watch teams that have clear ideas of how they wanna play soccer with the ball tourists i'll be on anyone else in terms of like where we thought they would be at and where they were actually at a they they blew me away oh let's go five year career so you get that one on it before you ask that you got you all right let's get the major league soccer lindsey outs are forgotten but when it went down the drain on that one i look at you're saying that about that gotcha so i'm thinking about fc cincinnati who by the way are trying to hire head coach in their general manager's job so we will see about that we'll talk about that in just a second so the translator opens on july ninth major league soccer so things are gonna start happening already happened to bill good idea bad idea what some of the rulers indoor move breaking news right now san francisco the bird dog is reporting that sources are telling him that josh wolff will be v first manager of austin f c good idea bad idea well one i think this one is obvious we all thought coming so i asked that idea or bad idea not obvious idea or not so obvious good idea for me okay he understands and he knows the league very well he's been a play replay on the national team he's been under gregg berhalter so when it comes to really grasping ideas of how to play and being specific to each position in building up from the back josh wolff as you're meant i mean he he's he's really dedicated and when you talk about a player who has good relationships with guys as a player and as a coach and really you know talk to players and get the understand their their feelings and how to move forward josh officer guy great personality in he's he he wants to play progressive soccer so for me that's a it's a great move because you're getting someone who has the experience and he's young and he's hungry to to to to succeed will see that one goes down i trust them says most things alley i now understand in vancouver lots of people saying he would not it's a multimillion dollar transaction reportedly it's a raccoon for full back animal s is the dp good idea bad idea do you want your yellow guy to be a less back right 'cause they think about how clinton play clint like he'd get on the ball in the final third yellow and like sometimes it would come off and it would be amazing mazing and you could lose with that because you're talking about a a center for a second ford or winger elliott non out there shouting yellow every game like five times maybe one that there'd be a thing like as the as last year at just you just showed you what it feels like that lot it like you could see because he's entertaining as all hell like you could see any he makes match winning play sometimes going forward you could see why there's interest in him i i would have a heart attack if i was a cat stand watching him every week and if you're gonna spend dp money on a full back then he has to be great going forward and you have to be the best defensive team in the league because just the way you construct rosters and major league soccer you can't sign eleven dp like you have to be smart about it in so this feels really risky they've had not a lot of look at the other part that most people spend money on which the goal scoring yeah i would pick danny off as by the way if that would be my one oh go like hey that guy were back where there's some danielle goes to the union rumors surrounding the nattery ended a match made in heaven of as the hell that kleber there clippers person yeah well it'll ceo right wing yeah right back i'm buying season ticket allow that exactly exactly how about this one brand resemble s good idea bad idea is that the right number quality player he's he'll he'll definitely add quality to you're side not a dp at this good idea tam short term deal probably yes not a long term bs yeah probably not a vp find a perfect throw the rentals the red bulls need a match winner in attack they've needed a match winter and attack for six years someone who can do the lifting the you know rather right philips has been lifted do it by himself year after year after year in the playoffs they haven't had that guy to come off the wing in just win the game for you brian rubies can probably do that now you'd have the item a little bit defensively i don't think he pressed the way the rebels although he pressed go costa rica press up the gold cup and here they part of that that's her yeah but i they did a great player they hit him site sliding him inside yeah but i think i like if you're a red bulls like giving eighteen month contract see if you could you you've given yourself to chance at winning that cop and we know that what they care about he comes off the bench mean alex will start say we'll also had i obviously as he was i'm barely even kidding right now we don't give me that look how about this georgia which to germany the rumors i think hurt the berlin worries would work on also twenty other mls teams yeah he's very good at soccer and there are teams that need players that come critical and you're gonna tell me dc canoes in diesel by the way like the same fc cincinnati inside to dc united he barely just got out of his car yesterday today now apparently the adventures will see george either germany it's a good good move for him because he's going over europe and he'll get tested in pushed and he'll be able to develop hopefully more so now than years with with chicago fire in chicago the fire is is not a a great place i think for for players to really develop and and a grow 'em at this stage so i think for the us men's national team that's great if he's playing if he's in a good situation that's the key for him is finding a place where he's gonna play don't just go to any german called that's high on you're you're potential but then you never get an opportunity he's going to a place where the coach is gonna say i'm gonna give you every opportunity to succeed it's on it's on you but i'm gonna give you the chance if is long as he's given the chance and he's he's got the right mindset fantastic move good idea or bad idea sebastian vanco returning toronto fc good idea i don't think so you don't think so bad idea yeah i don't so well i mean i i think i just think toronto need to go so women younger someone who's more of a winger i think they're better team with a four three three with causeway low 'em it kind of like a four to three one you can't play michael bradley is alone six anymore so you gotta put someone next to him as well 'em driven goes not that guy and the other thing with giovinco is like as great as he is he only he's only ever been good when he's been absolute focal point he's never been good in any less central role and i think they i honestly think the toronto want to like diversify that attack a little bit you don't have that diversity if it's you're back to a front to josie in giovinco you don't know how many minutes they're gonna be able to play but what if you play on the wing he's never been able to play on the wing fair but either way younger he couldn't play on but at the same time if you put someone behind him that you you trust in defensively like let's say justin more in the focus of the defensive offensive team is all hundred plus waylon josie out store now you've got serving on one day one situation what'd you think of crashes oh god he's gonna okay fair is there a fullback and major league soccer even today that you would take one v one situation over smashing jamaica like he's gonna get his shot every single time he comes inside of you is is just gonna offset your your tactics i mean you're gonna have huge holes and when teams have possession you're gonna be in trouble not gonna defend he's not gonna defend whatsoever to be honest and when you have josie like you said his health you're gonna need he's gonna need to work he's always had the work that much harder when jumping goes on the field because of lack of of of cover on the defensive side and pulls well oh is gonna be asked to do more and so you're pulling guys out of position it would not be effective in the long run that idea so charlie will see selection of ink apparently wants to do it he likes toronto doesn't like a saudi arabia three ended up yeah doesn't appear to like that very much let's talk week eighteen winners not winter's coming up in just seconds using is yes he got my certain that i could start all right so somebody jumped out of fc cincinnati they won i mean like in the most just basic obvious since they've finally got a win knocked off you still have one in eight weeks along time dropping like a rock are the houston dynamo you do not wanna lose fc cincinnati right now and then what i really wanna talk about is how the general manager niqab on a conference call from another one is saying basically that were just trying to bridge the gap until twenty twenty one were just trying to get to the west end stadium like don't have big dreams in the meantime we'd like to win games sure but we'd like this at eight foundation and that foundation will be led by a coach turn eighteen month contract it's basically playing for his job long term he says from eight candidates and he says also they had a bunch of big names asking about the job he's narrowed it down to one they're working on that right now no guarantee they'll get a deal done but that's what we wanna do soccer twitter of course was all about this like oh wow fc cincinnati of basically throw in the next year and a half in cincinnati is foundation is so weak that they don't think they can do anything but this and just bridge the gap what's going on there is this is this is truly a i think this was red flag or is this more just hey i'm i'm a i'm a dutch guy and i'm real straightforward with this the situation room we have figured out good i think he tried to walk back the the word caretaker i think it's sometimes we lose the bore he said it it it incidents this year where he hasn't quite chose the right word which sometimes it's a second language maybe even if their language is finally same thing with niqab i think what he was trying to say is like were looking at an eighteen month timeline for a turnaround because they they really handicap themselves with these outflow of allocation money 'em this off season they didn't build the roster right so he was just saying we understand is gonna take eighteen months and at that point were gonna do a full reassessment all the reporting i've seen 'em suggests that whoever gets hired of course they're like they are the presumptive manager be on that but they have like a timeline for the benchmarks if they wanna hit but their immediate job is it just like stop the leading rusher in the foundation of drought transfer window yeah correct some things like on spy in his direction by the way that's direction that they probably didn't didn't seem like they had they didn't it is literally what i said on the show i think two weeks ago when i said you know we should really not talk about cincinnati until just before the twenty twenty one season because it's gonna take them that long to figure everything out after what they've done promise cincinnati fans we will not not talk about you until before the twenty twenty one season whenever you dave the new york red bulls rather fell back scoring goals it looked like they were down and out on the road against the land that they love that rivalry it seems to push them every time they play them you see that peak going after as well like after that game they seem to reach another level you didn't big red athle nicknamed by the way i read after the final whistle jeff where it once did he really don't even know how many people did it kind of came out of nowhere but this scrappy is a word i love this game yeah it was fun it was fun and it's also like national tv biggest stage you can have a reason you put those two teams out there on that stage and it looked up to it it's awesome dwp or brian white as you're starting forward with the rebels stroke at this stage it's brian white you let him continue to grow and develop you bring in dwp at times if brian brian whites a forum starts to dip you bring them in you take some time on the bench you know regather you're you're thoughts and continue to build on you're performances and training and be wp let's see how much we can get out of you but at this point what a super soft a half right out vw p is experience it's is leadership he understands as he's getting older you know you can't play as many minutes as you use to end so whether that's coming in off the bench consistently or you start a couple of games here a couple of games there but brian white has really developed over the course of the season so continue to play him and see how far you can go and he's in he's getting pushed now so if you're you're form does drop a little bit guess what you're offering vw piece on and i do think it said something about brian white yesterday that he mostly stunk he had terrible game and then he pops up for the goal that the striker you're winner from intro new england or you don't say don't say all right i've been holding off for a while but now you can't deny seven games on beaten since the coaching change they are playing inspired bruce arena get the best out of each player deal bunbury looks like a new signing he he is he scored his fifty of goal a moscow in this game against colorado sir arsenal fan i end when you look at just how deep they identity of this team they they feel like we're going somewhere in new england revolution are are talking about investing heavily going into this transfer window that bums me out because of who is the name right now southbound five million dollars that's that's the rumor you get ten goals and five assists maybe in the most recent it's twenty seven years old these arjun arjun time is he came from river plate this is a player's gonna score goals when you see brian fernando's come into the league and set the league on fire with with his ability squirrels now you're team's gonna look at league i max and say a okay who's doing well and score goals let's bring him on we know he can produce so that would be the hope and goal that you add a striker who is just clinical and lethal incan can be that that predator and the box you have you know carlos he'll feeding you who's been great by the way and he's been very very good i wanna say he's among the best in the league now that's a clear clear and evident carlos he'll so he was playing so much better this looks like a guy who is now figuring out how to have success and this leak an all star looking like it also playing like that 'em cedo understanding just in front of the number numbers the centrebacks be like a char just play like chara if you could put like charles 'cause you have have that ability you have the skill set to be like a chara you will be phenomenal in this league bruce arena has these guys believe ning not only playoffs weaken make a run especially if we get these key additions and the transfer know what they're doing but seven games unbeaten and this is a team that you have to look out for their tied for that last spot right now in the eastern conference playoff spot i really like where they're going in and this is a team you have to start believing now do you worry though that like this is a team that can't i believe right now booze twenty nine years old five million dollars a year you're not consistently maybe getting investment like that are you worried at bats a short term signing to win now rather than bruce arena let's nine that agent right twenty nine is you get three four for years out of that is what you're selling value that's that's fine do you think they're looking for ceylon no i'm just saying the other mls teams that are china set themselves up for ten years let's say fc at lana that's what they're doing and i'm okay with saying you just need to win out a reset button my worry is bruce arena is only he's not gonna be there for ten years right like that's all right so but if you will so five years if you have a five year plan yeah right bringing in a twenty nine year old who's gonna score goals and maybe get you over the hump and i he knows in his mind what position you need a ticket the most i have to win and among up so if it in his mind if he's like i need a number nine who's gonna score goals 'cause i think i have just about all the pieces i need to make ron except for maybe two which is probably gonna addressing the transfer window is well i think this is the the right plan there all right you're winner girls or whomever like minnesota united by far the metal yeah toilets go they had the best week in in their in their clubs history they went into the gold cup break losing three straight like looking like they were gonna drop out of the playoff race a they came out of it they crushed cincinnati seven one last week huge win over san jose jose on the third mid week at home a and then going to montreal rotating the squad putting in a like a couple of draft picks mason toy who i kind of written off you saw hit mazing toy finishing franchise in april the ball in the net i did he was like basically on a field with carter man's lillian almost bergen they were literally just crossing the ball across the six from the finish and he was he was missing and they would shocking to be honest when they go on the road to montreal all they go down and they fight back and they went three to montreal and suddenly it's like okay minnesota's up above like comfortably above the playoff line for now but and they're rolling into this into this you us open cup they are who points behind the sounders same number games played there four points behind ellie galaxy same number of games played them appoint up on fc dallas dallas and played one more game and this is not a place that were used to seeing by the way mason toy has three goals to assist and about hard and fifty minutes six devils in his last five games across all competitions regulations the hawks climate that yes good you notice he always drift back shoulder though i wanna see him make some hard near post charlie davies style runs you gotta get young man's eared i gotta get fly over minnesota have the top of her whisper got other news a firm this weekend that we are not gonna get to hear but it's important pretty martinez pulled again this time frank gore talking about how he's not doing enough work defensively brennan vasquez fill that hole for united pretty was not this is a message clearly a as kevin car sort of match the central the honeymoon is over and then congratulations snicker mondo five hundred appearances stepping fries closest acted unless goalkeeper in total appearances and his two sixty five taken seven he's toll season to get to five hundred ducks mccarty it'd be highest active field player and i think he's right around three from sacramento diana you write for seventy six for beckerman yeah right right right but dax is the one that has the longest career ahead of him and he's gonna take at least for me it is a guy who could maybe get there he's twentyeight he's a lockdown starter he's probably not gonna leave dc again but he would still need he would need to start every game until thursday the years or hundred would be a huge accomplishment bill i mean or anybody else 'cause they're only five players in major league soccer history that have done that can you guys name them a reminder beckerman lorena which marshall mhm kevin hartman yep that is the five they go well then i got he was wrong to hell than i do but i wasn't gonna name all american goalkeepers i would have gotten kevin hart minute showing up four one two zero six zero unless it's out there caitlyn extra time and it was talking dot com is the email where we got a check from dc doyle set a few mediums that hashtag system the centerfold role was designed for us national team fits they hold up player like josie outspoken dropping playmaker little although they might not be ready yet which american forwards are best suited for the system out of his forever above a see nova vich andros serge ibaka giant came out of it but anyone on the back of it but anyone else you wanna put in there who's the next let's so the concern is that there isn't an obvious next when i think about this he is not again i could rule him out just why isn't he he would not fit what you need from that number nine position in what sense because i think he's the best easily the best hold up play i said that because i know you got lover i don't think he imposed he has enough of a presence in the game to come back to turn awareness factor i think he's more like adjusts these artists interesting so i have a completely different reid but it it almost doesn't matter because he's a winner now right hartland using amount of the wing everything about player development so much about fit in opportunity and in that's not above sees position his this rare is not not a hold up player at all he's smaller and not great with his back the goal and the lack of it's just write him off 'em you know he didn't even score double digit goals myriad of his ea last year and everybody scores goals narrative is sergeant is the great hope but sergeant a guy his opportunity with murder bremen last year looked unfit played his way out of the game day eighteen a you gotta keep your fingers crossed that he uses this summer well that he used his pre season well and that he is able to move up to his potential because there are a lot of pretty good young forward prospects kicking around mls kicking around soccer a josh sergeant z only elite forward prospect he would be the one a hope for is it didn't look great for him in twenty nineteen though kevin see wants to take it to the way he sat around the seventieth minute in the final we'd lost the game we know way back into it and i started my mind wander snippets of their younger days of landon donovan and then the prime landon donovan the missing attacking winger we need to make tuber alter system saying you assume josie center forward pulisic places that attacking midfielder we've got mckinney and bradley on the team or adams imagine replacing morris are aerial with lt who is the pieces on the wing then that you see for the future a i'm hoping that palmer calls rise will push pulisic to the wing a tim way just sold for ten million dollars to champions league team he's obviously gonna fit tyler boyd i think will play more minutes from what i heard he may have picked up an undisclosed hamstring injury which is why he didn't play the final two games those three guys and then i still like jonathan lewis has been off the bench a speed option paul aerial is a hardworking kaka calf type of winger early on is has a super high ceiling he's in germany but he might be three years away a as that john lewis doing enough for you and mls 'cause i feel like he doesn't do enough to even more of a usa national team call up so mls play he's only played a thousand mls minutes right he had a he had an argument yeah well i mean again fit and opportunity but in those battles in mls minutes i think he has six goals and six assists so anytime you put him out there and mls he's been productive does he need to get better absolutely but this is part where we are as a as a national team program what daydreaming about landon donovan coming back and then no i mean like they look at jonathan lewis is is starting every match in in in creating goals in scoring goals and looking like he's terrorizing defenders then i say yeah one hundred percent but he's coming in off the bench and mls games and then you start you start in particular item now so but you before he even got the colorado before that trade even happen he's getting he's getting a look when you us men's national yeah he's a substitute in mls yeah like that shouldn't happen but we're against the fact that allen gordon was something that molested news the substitute us national team in that just his role allen gold wasn't that a different doubt period in time period was like we're in qualifying it's rugged we need this sort of player of games where we need a super shop that's what this guy does what i what i heard and his super some history and i don't want argue about this i don't really care but isn't allen gordon supercell history quite a bit more impressive then jonathan lewis is i don't need a different point where you don't just super percent but he wasn't even starting first club team though jonathan lewis has three starts for colorado this year he's got nine in his entire career i mean i know he hasn't played very much he's not as young as sometimes we think he's he's twenty two right i mean like i way earlier we want more where we against keating parks getting called up when he's playing forbid if he could be to the national team yeah i i would i got sober we against john josh sergeant get or tim wagging called up last year when they hadn't played professional minute yeah because i don't any of them and ready right and so yeah it's consistent on i know the whole the whole point for me is if you are getting calls in the usa men's national team you should be starting freer club team you should be starting that's that's a the blunt fact now if you're christian pulisic and you're at chelsea and you're not starting because willion is is unbelievable and you can't you can't get on the field there you can't start because you have world superstars in your position okay that's fine weaken you can make an adjustment what if he's starting because he's lost his form as happened at dortmund well he's the best player on the on the squad w start some of you know you're gonna bring him in i mean there's if landon donovan and clint dempsey when he wasn't playing consistent still bringing him in the best i mean let's be honest is doing christian pulisic and jonathan lewis and that you know i'm just i'm just trying to get to the point where he made a pretzel now i'm trying to the point where he saying that christian pulisic named shouldn't be written in had i know we've already done that show let us know what you think about it and we talked about today we'll be back on thursday everybody but me deuces i'm out going agrees enjoyer so they went to fearlessly leave this podcast wherever spot when i come back everybody starts playing well and it's just you know they're out there you know doesn't fit your schedule if you got superstars in front of you and you know you're not able to get into the gutter you got then it's up to extra time make sure you got minutes and you're asking for says this none of this is a gift got you got you i

york manhattan soccer mexico saudi royal family hendrick white usa mexico gregg berhalter new york andrew charlie david instagram jj radic twenty seven years eighteen month forty five minutes twenty years six years
Dissecting the Actions of Mohammad bin Salman | Damage Control (Ep. 543)

Channel 33

42:19 min | 2 years ago

Dissecting the Actions of Mohammad bin Salman | Damage Control (Ep. 543)

"Hey guys this Sean fantasy. I'm the editor in chief of the ringer and host of the big picture podcast. Oscar season is ramping up. And so is the big picture. That's why we're moving out of channel thirty three and into our own feed. We're going to keep bringing you more banter about this year's Oscar contenders and more deep conversations with the filmmakers behind them. So to hear more from your favorite directors and the movie obsessed staff of the ringer subscribed to the big picture on apple Spotify. Wherever you get your podcasts. I'm just in charity. I'm qena. Welcome to damage control on the channel thirty three network a podcast where we impact with upsets excites and divides us in popular culture. So let's get started. This is a tough week and a lot of respects the Saudis and murdered a Washington Post columnist weeks ago, the Turks are easing hell response. But so far the Trump administration seems to be standing quietly by the Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, we're going to talk about his strange sorted role in this emerging diplomatic crisis. But first there's a developing new story that we're going to talk about there might be new information coming out after we record this podcast. What we do know right now is that someone tried to kill billionaire liberal donor. George Soros with the pipe bomb, and then pipe bombs and explosives were sent to the Clintons for President Obama CNN headquarters in New York and a variety of other liberal figures as of right now, we don't know who is responsible or what their motivations are. But. Many of the people who were sent bombs are primary targets have right wing extremists anger, and we're going to talk about how these assassination attempts fit into the current domestic terrorism situation. Okay. So just to recap what we know right now yesterday a pipe bomb was discovered it. George shores is home today. News broke that someone or a group of people have tried to kill many many prominent political figures so explosives were sent to for President Obama the home of Bill and Hillary Clinton the headquarters of CNN, the headquarters of Debbie Wasserman Schultz, recently, there have been reports that bomb may have been sent to call a Harris's office. That's what we know. Right now, there might be more. But basically the point is that there there's obviously Arash of attempted assassinations. No one has been harmed. But these attempted murders of extremely powerful. Influential people are extremely disturbing. It's also kind of leaving us at a loss. Because right now, we don't know who did this the facts just aren't available. We don't know if they have a coherent political ideology, we don't know if they're aligned with any foreigner domestic terrorist groups, it's just like too soon to know these things, but it's really really tempting to assume it was right wing extremists because the Clintons Obama shorts and CNN are all regularly subjects of conspiracy theories about a global cabal trying to destroy America. The New York Times reported today that the attempt about him being have sparked an investigation into whether a bomber is going after targets that have often been the subject of right wing. I r- there's a lot of unknowns right now, we can't save her certain who did this. But it is important to note that the far right wing media has. Already started its own narrative. And that is that these bombs are false flag operations, Alex Jones. And Rush Limbaugh have also have both claimed already that Democrats are behind the bombs in an effort to sway the midterms their way, even though there's no actual information about what's going on. There's already this misinformation campaign happening, which is sort of very two thousand eight right? It's like people treating it. Like this weird fake strategy game. Where it's again, people are I mean, people are literally drafting talking points about a series of assassination attempts. They're trying to turn them into cable news style talking points of like, actually, the Democrats did the, and it's it's it's given how this story has been developing in the past twelve hours how rapidly it's been developing, and how exponentially even orbit it is it is. Uncanny to watch that happen. It's in Canaan. You watch the political discourse half to engage with it in these electioneering terms. I feel really overwhelmed because like when we we were initially just going to talk about the showroom pipe bomb. And you know, he is a really interesting figure so he is a bit less well known than than the rest of the people who've been sent bombs if you're not familiar with him. He is a extremely rich, man. He's a Hungarian man who made his money in hedge funds, and has sort of become a really really prominent donor to progressive political causes in the US and internationally, and because of that he sort of become a really big focal point for conspiracy theories that sort of paint him as a puppet master of a sort of like global attempts to like reshape the world, and he's been sort of he's been portrayed like that for a while. While and I think that his inclusion in these bombings sort of is the most compelling evidence that there's some sort of. Right wing vision. Right. Yeah. Originally yesterday, right? So Tuesday of this week Soros was the only attempt that we knew about he was the first one. And so the fact that it's specially in the past month Soros has been the subject. I mean, this is true Soros, always like in this the past decades of change. But specifically in the past month on the eve of the midterm elections Soros has been the subject of right wing scrutiny, including scrutiny from Trump himself about you know, is Soros. The one bankrolling beta work in Texas is you know, Soros fund, you know, Soros's funding, the socialist and tika almost lapsing to Alex Jones voices. I say all of this. Because basically, George Soros is who Alex Jones is talking about when our exchanges rants about the globalist. What I mean, and he has been, sir. Sort of the boogeyman for a lot of like Donald Trump himself. Recently blamed showrooms for anti Kevin up protests, like Trump has directly fed this conspiracy theory, and he's not the only one like Senator Chuck Grassley also said he believed that was like behind this, quote unquote, paid protester situation, sir. Trump has sort of explicitly indirectly supported this conspiracy theory, not just supported it as a conspiracy theory, but supported it as a point of rage and mobilization for right wing figures and right wing activists than just like. Conservative people in America. Yes. So it's incredibly tempting to just assume that this is a this is like a right-wing nutjob, right? It's weird to me. How the fact that now today on Wednesday these democratic politicians in Trump critics including John Brennan who is who. That's who the person was trying to target by sending the pipe bomb or sending explosives to CNN. They were trying to target John Brennan and John Brennan is the one who say head who had a falling out with Trump in who Trump revoked his security clearance about a month or so ago. Yeah. The fact that those politicians were also the subjects of these attacks actually makes it more complicated to think about what's going on here. Just because you go from Soros being one guy who we know for fact, just like uniquely the subject of right wing. I r- to just abroad slate of liberal, but prominent powerful people who lots of people can have lots of reasons for trying to target. You know what I mean? Like, it's weird to think of how many times the Pentagon and the White House have been the subject of anthrax and rice in and explosives in envelopes. I mean race it was just sent to Trump in the Pentagon. And like that's why I think it's really as much as it's tempting to sort of say oh God. This is definitely right wing extremists. I don't wanna do that. Because they're just been so many historical examples. Of just people who don't have an ideology in are just wanting to murder people sending bombs out like there were bomb threats to Jewish centers after the election, and it was. Mentally ill teenager wasn't anything organized. So I don't want to. I don't want to like pretend that I know who did this even though I I have suspicion. Well, let's talk about that though. Like, why do we I think there's something about? There is very certainly something about the current political climate. That makes it really tempting and feel it makes it really tempting to do that this is right wing terrorism. Yeah. Like, real talk. And again, we can we can set all sorts of counter examples for for saying, hey, let's let out a little bit, and they actually sort through it's happening and see who the news reports on actually having done this. I just think that the country is so on edge and part of that is okay what we're two weeks out from a midterm election. Right. That's a pretty boring conventional reason. But then I think the other half of it really is that like, I think post Trump the American imagination has a very different sense of our own capacity for political violence. You know, it feels like the nineteen sixties away that no other decade since the nineteen sixties has felt like yeah. I was thinking about how it sort of. Call back to the late sixties and seventies where there was a ton of bombings going on all across the states from various radical groups, a lot of left-wing radical groups back then, but one thing that I think is happening now that's really messed up is that already while most people are sort of holding off until we find out what happened. There's already this huge push of the false flag narrative from the right wing media. I mean, I think that's interesting because that is actually a very common, and at this point programmatic response that the right wing has to anything like the fact that whether you're talking about a school shooting or you're talking about pipebombs being sent to all of these high level politicians. The fact that the definitive reflecting talking point for any violence of a certain stature. In America is false flag. False flag that phenomenon is just strange, and I just don't know where to begin to unpack that. Literally is a sort of impulse that people on the far, right? Have for talking about murders. Extrajudicial killings in America is somewhere in a basement a secret cabal Democrats got together and decided to kill children or like Barack Obama. Yeah. In this case the themselves. Yeah. And it's just this information could have incited these attacks. And now disinformation is warping. What happened there? There's people out there who are understanding these events in like such a skewed way. I think that the perverse thing is that. They're people right there right wing people there Alex Jones's who their first response to this is how can we ju jitsu this again these attacks till like help encourage turn out among Republicans on November. Like, that's that's literally a way that people with not just random people on the internet. We're not talking about like egg with eighty six followers. We're talking about prominent right wing figures with huge platforms like their way of processing this is to think about voter turnout in two weeks among the voting base that his in even aligned with the people who are just the subject of these attacks. Like that's something about that. That's like a -standingly in human. I know I went to the info wars site today to see what Alex Jones saying. And yeah who is like false flag. Democrats are just trying to fix the midterms. I guess it's good that he doesn't have his social media platforms anymore. But this has been interesting to watch unfold because just this week there. There've been a lot of parallels drawn between left wing protests where are not even left wing just like liberal or anti GOP when prominent like Republican politicians get heckled at restaurants. There have been some parallels drawn between that behavior and then much more serious threats violence, and I just think that this today makes any parallels. Look, really, really foolish. Yeah. You know? I was recently watching did you watch the Ted Cruz. Bitta orc debate last week. No, I just I just like looked at the summaries afterwards. I can't bear to watch Ted Cruz Spey. I can't either. But I was ready to go. The. Choice. There was one. There's one line in the debate were Ted Cruz is you know, he's playing he's hamming up the whole cavenaugh like look at these liberals they're out of control or out of their minds. And there's a line where he started talking about the left. He has the left-wing mobs beating on the doors of supreme court. And I just I heard that line of like, do you realize that there was a right wing rally in Charlottesville where a right wing mob murdered a woman broad daylight on camera and your your point of comparison for that is protesters in DC knocking on the door this premium court. Yeah, there's just a, you know, there is a profound moral relativism in the Republican party, and in in within American conservatism that just makes incidents like this so maddening to engage with you made the point right of like if you go back to the nineteen sixties. Nineteen seventies. That's it of where you'll find the left-wing analog for some of this stuff. But I think if you limit yourself to the president contemporary context. I just I think that the context for what what we think of is right wing violence versus left wing violence. They're not really the the not really similar, and I think that's the context that makes it difficult to resist certain readings of of these explosives being sent around to liberal politicians. Yeah. Is this is the thing that a lot of people. I think are thinking like this is what the right wing does. Now. I think that the political spectrum has really changed and the right has gone so far further into extremism that it's it is hard to compare the two they're not. I mean, they don't line up neatly. Because now there's this whole ecosystem of of media trying to spin what's happening in like away. That's completely divorced from reality right way. And maybe like some of the most. More crazy weatherman had those thoughts back in the day. But they didn't have a really good platform to disseminate them like the internet. I think has a celery David the tilt towards extremism, and like the ability to to get that message out there. Yeah. I definitely think social media has made it easy to be fringe and popular all at once. Because it's just like, even if you're fringe, everyone on your fringe knows where you are. You think you have a bat signal in a way that like you might be fringed? But every fringe person who agrees with you in America is following your Twitter feed, the Arno margins it feels like there are no margins in American political life anymore. It feels like no matter where you fall on the spectrum that you're referring to you are represented somewhat prominently in. The the present discourse and in the political climate, especially if you're an angry political faction, it's hard to process a lot of this working like you said it's like we're working in a vacuum of information. But it's not like that. Vacuum information is going to be filled with okay, the police are going to tell us this. That's not the only thing that's going to be filled with vacuums also going to be filled with Alex Jones. And so then you're just we're forced to contest with Alex Jones account of events. Yeah. And I'll Jones is going to be faster than the FBI. In terms of telling us, quote unquote was going on. Yeah. I'm just curious whether the Trump White House will ever take right wing extremism seriously. Oh, I think it's just really hard to grapple with the feeling that I have that this threat will not be ever taken seriously because it's a lot of these extremists are are propping up the administration. There's a point at which for Trump if you start alienating the there's basically difference between alienating. Like violent right wing extremists and alien eating. Nonviolent hardcore Republicans like once you start to discourage one you start to discourage the other necessarily, and so I think Trump I think it's for Trump. It's like a combination of the fact that he's a troll himself. He's just a troll and to he just recognizes that he recognizes that violent right wing extremism and violent right wing extremism are for his purposes. Indistinguishable in terms of like morale, and in terms of how do I encourage people to support my political movement and turn out to vote at elections and keep my party in power during Charlottesville. That's definitely what I thought his hedging his hedging about there being bad people on both sides and good people on both sides. I don't think it was him. Trying to say I'm glad that Heather Heyer was killed. I think what he was trying to do was stopped short of making his most diehard supporters feel like they were. On the same page is him. And I think that calculus is why don't think that anybody outside of his base can turn Trump in a moment. Like this and expect any sort of coherent ethical leadership. I don't even think he has the capacity to offer coherent ethical leadership. Right. I'm glad none of the attempts were successful. As far as we know. 'cause fires. We know thirty six PM eastern standard time on Wednesday. Should we talk about an assassination attempt was successful? No. I mean, we should talk about it. But it's it's it's a mile even more dark. The conversation. We've just had but find a we'll find a funny story for next time. Maybe unfortunately, Kate. It's been twenty two days since Jamal kashogi disappeared. Saudi Arabia has all but it mid that Saudi agents assassinated, the Washington Post columnist, but they're characterizing it as an interrogation fistfight situation gone wrong as opposed to an officially sanctioned assassination. So now, it's up to the United States and other nations other western nations and also Turkey decide how they want to respond. But let's let's break down the time line a little bit. Just because I think a big part of this story is not just the fact that the Saudis assassinated journalist, but the way in which the assassination has come to light and played out as a sort of diplomatic fiasco in the past couple of weeks. So kashogi goes missing on October second. That's when he's last seen entering the Saudi consulate. And is then bull days later Turkey starts, you know, the Turkish government starts leaking reports through the press that this Audis killed kashogi in the consulate the earliest report suggests that they not only killed kashogi, but the hacked his body up with a bone saw and smoke on them out of the consulate boxes. It's like the most sopranos style. Execution of ever heard of in the Saudis deny this. Yeah, they deny it very sort of like melodramatically, they say that only that that I, but they say we're going to let the Turkish authorities searched the consulate which is their own sovereign soil. They offer to form a joint investigation with the Turkish government. And then Donald Trump, meanwhile ways in say, he has no idea what's going on. I think he floated the idea that there were rogue it was a right right assassination. And so in the middle of all this you have the Saudi Crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman hosting and investors conference in Riyadh. Dav o of the desert cold, right? And the thing about this conference is that you have a lot of westerners. You have a lot of like American senior officials and a lot of business leaders scheduled to attend. Now. These revelations about kashogi being killed in the consulate. Coming to light. It's creating this very bad political situation, the Washington Post specifically is running a lot of hardcore coverage of this whole plot. And they're sort of I I would say the Washington coast becomes the leader of the effort to get. I mean, they're journalists yet murder. Yes. Fucking crazy. And they're the ones that of leading the effort to say, hey, like the US needs to rethink its relationship with Saudi Arabia. So the senior American officials pull out of the conference in Riyadh. You have. You know, they're Merican media and business partners start to plow the conference, but the conference goes for anyway, it's just they're less Americans there in Riyadh at the moment and very gradually Turkey has revealed that it's intelligence agencies have audio recording of Cooke's death like in keep in mind, the Saudis the whole time at tried to deny that they killed him. They actually insisted that kashogi left the consulate alive that he walked out and Turkey. This whole time is like listening to Saudi Arabia revise it story. And every time they do they mmediately have a piece of evidence contradicting with the Saudis just said, and like I said very gradually becomes apparent that? The Turks just have the audio of show death, and that's been stringing the Saudis along instead of letting them dig a hole for themselves in in terms of like embarrassing themselves and making themselves look not credible. When accounting for what happened here, and that's really wild. Because basically, I assume it would take a lot for Turkey to admit that it was spying when Saadi right? It makes it clear how how important this assassination is right. What also makes it clear how bad the Turkish Saudi relationship is. But we can get into that. There's a lot of context for this. And I. Think what we wanna do here is it of talk through the various parties to this diplomatic crisis. That have I just think such conflicting stakes in. This Audis accounting for the fact that the murdered a Washington Post columnist, and are just sort of gas lighting the rest of the world about what happened despite the fact that there is a parent -ly audio evidence of the fact that eighteen Saudi agents went to extend bowl to murder this guy. So I talk about kashogi first-rate, so he operated guy. Yeah. You were recently telling me that you are reading a book about the Saudi regime, and he was a prominent figure, right? What? Yeah. I was reading Robert Lacey's inside the kingdom link actually. Right. When the story happened happened to be reading that book. And yeah, it's it's if you read coverage now of all of this kashogi the times is characterized as a dissident. Yeah. Definite. That's definitely how he's being characterized. And it's not that's a bit the characterization. I'll say lacks nuance. Like really Shoghi is. A guy who has ties to the Royal family, and it has at earlier parts in his career had a very close relationship personally and professionally with the Royal family look at times he's been like a spokesman for the the Saudi Royal family. Another thing that I think hasn't really gotten a lot of attention is just you know, he's he's being portrayed as a as a dissident journalist. He also was like as you're saying really close ties with the Saudi family. He comes from one of the wealthiest families in the world. This isn't some random guy. He is right. Fucking rich. And he like he's cousins of Doti fed. He's an establishment figure like he he was in elite. He's just the non-royal. Yeah. He is. He is an elite dissident. This is like this is another reason why this is such a big deal. Right. And it's like the Anderson Cooper of Saudi Arabia. That's a good way of Saudi Arabia. I don't like that. Actually. I haven't read that. No that that's like a. Yeah. I it's we're not saying this to sit of mitigate or questioning journalism. It's just important to understand that because show us close at one point to the Saudi Royal family to maybe better understand why this all ends with mouth had been some and killing him or having him killed or someone in Riyadh having him killed because this isn't a case where it's just like, oh, this this random Washington Post columnists is Saudi and they don't like that. He's publishing bad things about Saudi Arabia or critical things about the house of side in America. So they killed this guy. Like it's deeper than that because his relationship with this out Royal family is deeper than. Yeah. So then we'll we don't really know much about the people who who bone Saad him except that they clearly watch the sopranos. Let's talk about NBS. Okay. So the Saudi Crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, he's basically he is the effective. I mean, there's King Solomon. What's his deal is he just sold? Yeah. And NBA, you know, it's like NBS is first in line for the throne. And he is the charismatic leader of Saudi Arabia at the moment. And he's remarkable. Because I mean, I don't know if you remember this fees about a couple years ago in western press, like the Atlantic in the New York Times in the New Yorker wasn't. He like on the cover of time magazine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. M B S was basically doing this press. Run of like, hey, I'm the young and leader. I'm not your normal. Saudi arabia. I'm cool Saudi right? And I think so in the way we were just we were just sort of trying to add nuance to kashogi characterization as a dissident. I think it's important to ads of new watts two MB SS characterization as a reformer because a lot of coverage. This will say this is you know. Mohammed bin psalms role in the death of kashogi is surprising because he billed himself as a reformer. I don't think that's actually true. I think what Muhammed bin Salman has built himself as this entire time is a modernist. And I think that that's it of speaks to the fact that his regime in the west we think of things like him allowing the opening of movie theaters and letting letting women drive right in that's modernism. But that is a part from what I think people would think of if you described him as former he's not a reformer. He's actually a very autocratic guy. Like he in Saudi Arabia. He should have. He's a sushi hit with a clampdown within the Saudi Royal family of like who has what power got right? He sort of created this bottle necking in which all roads in with Muhammad bin Salman, so in that sense. He's not a reformer. He's in authoritarian. He just happens to be a hip modernist. Our -tarian leader. And so I remember when Trump went on his first foreign visit Arabia, and he sort of I think this was before I'm Bs was fishery named crown prince or like right around the time that he was but Trump and him early hit it off. He sort of Trump was like, this is my guy, and they made this big arms deal. And then that sort of when the whole oh, look at this new crime prints coming in like let women drive. He's like what a great ally to the US. Maybe we don't have to feel shamed. Of the fact that we've been allying ourselves with Saudi Arabia for strategic purposes. That's when that whole story line got pushed out in the media. But sense, then a lot of stuff that he's done has been clearly just not in line with that narrative. Like heat started a war with young men that. Has resulted in a lot of human rights catastrophes. And that hasn't really gotten much pushback. And then he also like rounded up a bunch of of his enemies and tortured them in a hotel and Trump tweeted like, I support, my friend. He knows what he's doing. Trump had no problem looking the other way or even endorsing a lot of his actions that were clearly not reform clearly very author -tarian in disturbing. Why do you think kashogi as murder has become this tipping point in US Saudi relations in a way that nothing else has I'm of two minds about it? There's the obvious angle that I think a lot of people a lot of cynics echoing right now, which is oh no one wanted to pay attention to two casualties in Yemen. But they'll pay attention to the death of this one journal. List this one prominent journalist because that's how the media rates media protects its own. I think there's some truth to that shore. I think. Chris. You're just. In a position in society that lent itself to this being politically unpalatable situation in congress, certainly if not in Trump's head, I think the other part of it though is just that. I just think that the the US Saudi alliance is just so fundamentally bonkers and fraudulent. It's all it is like the most accidental farcical relationship that the United States has. It's all just because of the corner that the US painted itself into during the Truman and Eisenhower years when we totally alienated Iran and never really have been able to come back from that. And so the entire the strategic logic of being doer dialyzers with Saudi Arabia is to counterbalance Iran, which is a country that. I mean, I mean, it's a country that at this point is like ruled by its own sort of Islamist authoritarian situation that is like a direct product of America's own interventions in in politics. But I think all of those things withstanding. Saudi Arabia is our ally because we need to counterbalance Iran, which is a country that in a different version of American history would be a way more comfortable ally. With United States than Saudi Arabia will ever be Saudi Arabia is just it is a fundamentalist monarchy. That realistically is just incompatible with. Human rights priorities, the United States. Yeah. It definitely seems like it's always been a the enemy of my enemy who also has guess is my friend. And I'm like, do you think that this is going to be something that will fundamentally alter the nature of that relationship? No, I think under another President Obama or under Clinton or under another president there would be other options here. But I think the fact that one of Trump's core foreign policy principles is just need work antipathy toward her on. I think that actually. Paints the US into this weird corner. Yeah. Or paints the US deeper into that historical corner of look at the end of the day, you've made this you've made this mortal enemy of Iran. And so you you're stuck with Saudi Arabia. And if you had a president who was more receptive to and had a more constructive relationship with Iran. You would have more room to feel punitive to war to take a punitive stance toward Saudi Arabia right now. But we don't have that because Trump's foreign policy doesn't make any fucking sin. But also totally consistent with the rest of American foreign policy that doesn't make any fucking sense. I think he just knows that regionally like this is the table he set for himself. This is the table he set for us. And so you couple that with the fact that like the State Department is the most dysfunctional department under Trump gets the department that just doesn't have staff, and it's just. Yeah. I think he just doesn't know what to do. And all he has are his sort of vague elementary biases against Iran and in favor of Saudi Arabia. The weird thing is that Trump is a fan of air. John believe Turkey. It's so I don't maybe that's like the wildcard here because air to one really I mean, I I should clarify like everyone was personal friends with kashogi, which is that is another thing that sort of tells you how like about because show he's prominence in that. He wasn't just some journalists like he was friends with air John airline himself is not a not only do that press. Yeah. Not friendly to the press. But aired Owen has been very bullish about all of this like yet on Tuesday. He gave this much hyped speech to his parliament where he just started airing this out he's out and again was like playing his hand of Saudis, keep lying. Meanwhile, we have the tape. It would be unfortunate if tape leak to the press and just embarrassed the Saudis, he's clearly playing his own game here and on some level. He seems to have this exceptionally cooperative relationship with Trump. So I am curious how Turkey might end up Paiva tely prevailing on Trump to take a different tact. Then Trump is currently taking which is just sort of lake play dumb. I mean, you know. I'm looking forward to see how. Great. Let's just assume we're stuck with Saudi Arabia as a key regional ally. In the Middle East, this at least changes. Muhammed bin Salman, publicity, campaign Riley. He doesn't get to be Thomas Friedman's BFF. Now, I think it definitely crumbles the narrative that there's a reason to feel good about being allies the Saudi Arabia. It's weird to me that there's even an urge to have that pretense. People wanna feel good about the United States in our foreign policy this whole incident if nothing else like lays bare the fact that a lot of our alliances are transactional. And they're like, there's our foreign policies not guided by principle, it is like if this incident shows anything it's that way. But also like imagine feeling good about US foreign policy in the Middle East in the past one hundred years at any point. That's my response to that. I know I know, but I'm just thinking about like the. Subscribers of foreign policy magazine crowd not necessarily us way too cynical. I just think that it it totally dismantles that that narrative that was getting pushed by like a lot of mainstream media in and by the Trump administration way, I think this definitely destroys the NBS reformer narrative. Yeah, it's weird that narrative, even I mean, it's just if you think about it right NBS was basically doing the equivalent of like building Twitter brand. Joining the thing. Remember when Uber was like oh shit. We've really destroyed our brand, and they tried to be like you. He was like new improved. We heard your complaints. Yeah. Well, as of now, we don't know how the United States, we still don't know it's been like weeks, this point we still don't know what the State Department with the United States is going to say or do in response. Like definitively response to the Saudi. The successful Saudi plot to kill a journalist. We also don't know what's going to happen with these pipebombs. This is like such a dire note to end episode of this podcast says the assassination episode what we can it's not happy. It's not happy Kate promised at the top of the podcast that we'd have a happier episode. A couple of weeks from now. Terms. I feel like it's going to be to be honest with you. I think it's getting colder outside and colder in the studio. I'll put it like that. I used cold in my heart. Yeah. All right. I'm just in charity. I'm Kate neds this been damaged control. Thank you for listening. Y'all gonna hear from us again in two weeks the week of the mid-term elections cater you excited for the midterm elections excited. Scared nervous. I'm a lot of things. Well, just gentler.

Saudi Arabia Donald Trump United States Trump America prince Mohammad bin Salman murder Alex Jones Saudi Crown Washington Post George Soros Jamal kashogi Saudi Royal family Turkey President Obama president Mohammed CNN Trump White House
The Siege of Mecca

Throughline

44:32 min | 1 year ago

The Siege of Mecca

"The morning of November Twentieth Nineteen seventy-nine would have seemed like any other Mecca wore. The Sky was clear and much of the city was preparing appearing for budget. The first of five for the day off the season of hedge had just ended and and pilgrims from around the world gathered slums. Holiest site the mustard. That cut him or grandma. Ask a massive compound surrounding the Gaba an ancient chint black cubic building that sits in the middle of a vast courtyard Muslims. Call it the House of God. The earthly place. They direct their prayers. Ah in the Islamic calendar who was the first of Mahara in the year fourteen hundred the first day of the new century you when the people of Mecca make their own program each to the shrine around one hundred thousand pilgrims filled the courtyard lined up in concentric circles facing the Kaaba for Prayer uh just as the prayer shots ring out. This wasn't a sound. Any pilgrim expected to hear violence. This is strictly forbidden in Mecca before the pilgrims could figure out what was happening a man followed by three gunmen emerged from the crowd right and began walking fiercely towards the mosques among the crowd part as the man charged them in butter or pulpit and snatched the mic from the terrified among demand began to speak Arabic in Fiqh better when accent. He was tall and steam with brown skin and long wavy hair. His name it was John Hayman. The hundreds of armed men commanded scattered across the grounds mocks yelling orders at the pilgrims Arabic tape in which some of the men snipers climbed the seven minarets surrounding the main grounds and took positions overlooking downtown Mecca. Johanna instructed them. Eight John Kapoor Fire Dot Com. If you see a government soldier wants to raise his hand against you I have no pity and shoot him because he wants to kill you. The Saudi police protecting the mosque were armed with little more than batons. It's two guards. Were killed immediately. Many others ran for their lives. In many of the Pilgrims Moss began chanting. Llahu Akbar or God is the greatest. Something Muslim often do trying moments soon. The militants it's also joining the chiefs and the chaos reached a climax just as Johann announced that he and his men were now in control and with that it was. Clear Islam's holiest site and one hundred thousand. People have been taken hostage the siege of Mecca and event that would forever change Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world had begun. What was Saudi Arabia like before? Nineteen seventy nine Denver. Uh we were living a very normal life like the rest of the Gulf countries. Women were driving cars. There were movie theaters. In Saudi Arabia. Women worked everywhere. We were just normal. People people developing like any other country in the world until the events of Nineteen seventy-nine Saudi Arabia is in the news constantly. It's a major player in the affairs of the Middle East and the US is closest ally in the region region other than Israel for decades. It's been one of the world's biggest exporters of oil but that's not the only thing is exported Saudi Arabia's religious authorities have actively spread their interpretation of Islam while Hab is through these efforts there ultra conservative. literalist version of the faith has traveled around the world and inspired hatred and even violence. Saudi Arabia also has a poor human rights record. Especially when it comes to women until you'll recently women could not drive or travel about a mill relatives permission the country's de facto leader Mohammed bin Salman whose voice we just heard a moment. I'M GONNA go is a thirty four year old prince of the Saudi Royal Family who has tried to reverse some of these trends by loosening restrictions on women social media and public mingling of the sexes. Bin Salman has often cited the year nineteen seventy nine as a turning point for Saudi Arabia when the country's clerics begin to exert more more power in the fares of the nation his interpretation of history and the sincerity of his efforts are up for debate under his rule. Saudi Arabia has targeted. It'd journalists imprisoned dissidents and bomb civilians in a war against his neighbor Yemen. But he's right about one thing when you're heyman and DB and his band end of militants took over the Grand Mosque in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine they inadvertently opened up opportunities for Saudi clergy to grab power so in this episode. So we're going to take you back to the fifteen day siege of Mecca that chain Saudi Arabia continues to shape the Muslim world. Perfect and this is Jimmy Lane Wesleyan. I'm listening to through line. which is an awesome podcast? Show thank you Berkeley support for NPR and the following message come from Exxon Mobil which is growing algae for biofuels working working with its partners synthetic genomics. Exxon Mobil is researching and field testing algae. That could one day power. The trucks ships and planes that helped drive the economy with fewer greenhouse gas emissions keeping transportation humming while cutting emissions find out more about biofuels at energy factor dot com news breaks and big stories change range every day. That's why we're giving you. NPR's ten minute morning news. PODCAST ON SATURDAYS TO I'm Scott Simon and I'm Lou Garcia Navarro up. I start your day with us. Weekdays at six eastern and Saturdays at eight a bit later to suture weekend from. NPR News every Muslim. Who can afford? It is expected to make a pilgrimage to Mecca. Once in their life while they're pilgrims this will spend a lot of their time in the Grand Mosque a massive facility that covers over four hundred thousand square feet. It's a sanctuary where violence even its smallest. Form is forbidden so as you can imagine many of the pilgrims who were there in the mosque on the morning of November twentieth realize. Just how all serious this situation was. Most people were horrified by what had happened. Most people that were inside the mosque were besides themselves this joke. Oh Keshishian and resuming fellow. King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies and Joe says as the rebels delivered. Their manifesto chaos erupted in the mosque. The militants blocked all of the gates to prevent hostages from getting out. Once the chaos. Die Down there were tens afoul of pilgrims trapped in the mosque being controlled by hundreds of armed gunmen. Initially there wasn't a major response from local authorities it appeared appeared as though the entire city was in shock. But at this point you might be asking. Who is Joe Hayman? Then what motivated him. And how did he end up staging this attack before we answer any of that we have to go over some basics about Saudi Arabia. And get a sense for what was happening there. In the years leading up to nineteen seventy-nine these are the treasure. Houses of an ancient distant isn't kingdom a land the size of western Europe where the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is named after the family event. Starting in the eighteen hundreds they try to unite Bedouin Edwin tribes to take control of the peninsula. They captured and lost control of some parts of Arabia but never fully controlled it for long periods of time but after generations of struggle they were finally able to become rulers of Arabia in one thousand nine hundred thirty two. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They established a country treat and named it after themselves. And by controlling Islams to holiest cities Mecca and Medina they became credible haramain. Shetty fan and out of which means the custodian of the Two Holy Mosques an incredible responsibility but in order to achieve this position. The House House event solid enlisted. The help of conservative Muslim fighters called the when or brothers. The plan were followers of the Wahabbi interpretation of slum what hobbies reject any attempts to modernize a slum and proselytize and often historically inaccurate cure technical view their religious fanaticism awesome made them extremely effective soldiers for the Saudi army. The country that the Saudi family controlled was poor and extremely underdeveloped developed. Most people lived as they had for centuries but in nineteen thirty eight. A major resource was discovered in Saudi Arabia. Oil a land of too little water and too much oil. That would probably describe the dilemma of a country. which is only just realizing its importance in the twentieth century? Those treasure by the late nineteen seventies. He's revenues meant that the kingdom was slowly but surely ising was developing. It was opening up to the outside world which irked some of the most conservative elements in the kingdom. This is Yaroslava Trofimov. I've been covering The Muslim world's for needed to cates for the Wall Street Journal. He's a longtime in Middle East reporter. Who wrote the book? The siege of Mecca things like television was still very controversial and the attempts by the royal family to bring the country into more more than eight women Went to beach wearing swimsuits Their War DABAYA but Dow by it was not any post item but this this apparent betrayal of Wahabbi principles wasn't the only thing that angered many conservatives I can make progress in the country wasn't happening everywhere And many small towns and villages Bedouins didn't always have the same access to resources as their fellow city-dwelling citizens so many of the man who fit in in that second group felt not only disgusted by the modernization in the country but they also felt left behind by it in a monarchy obviously they're always injustices We're not talking about the democracy or democratizing society. So they're always individuals that are left out of the system awesome and one young Bedouin. The son of an Ecuadoran fighter felt both of these slights. His name was Joe Hayman and our Dany. Aw Man debuted comes from one of the most prominent tribes of Saudi Arabia and and he was at the beginning destined to become a foot soldier in the National Gar- Jehan served in the National Guard. Saudi Arabia's army for many years but eventually he became more and more interested in studying slum he started studying slamming University of Medina under Shaban Buzz. Who who was a leading cleric and then later become the mufti of Saudi Arabia and he became enamored by be teachings of several prominent an aunt clerics he started getting the following that he had at these Lincoln University in Medina Baron started to proselytize as much as possible all the potential changes that he wished to bring to the country? Trauma tabby opposed the presence of foreigners the presence of western an embassy to humor anathema and other things like television women on television. He rejected the establishment. He thought that there was an alternative certified and that there ought to be an alternative to do Rick Family Jiemin really opposed any non Muslim non Rajavi penetration of Saudi Arabia's. We didn't you like the fact that the Western embassies he decried the fact vice the flag of the Cross finding of buildings in our country and what he calls is for justice he calls for for the rule of law and that he himself is going to go ahead and put everything back in order. He's going to save Saudi Arabia from these bad rulers. So here wanted to sort of to to create a pure Islamic state which is not the only different from what for example Isis. A one or two more times Kahan was a true believer. He lived an austere pious life. He refrained from modern luxuries like television and he was an excellent recruiter for the conservative active movement. He wrote and shared his thoughts widely and began to organize his followers. He created the spent. Let's say of individuals at some point win that alarm the Saudi authorities dozens of members of Joe Hayman's organization were detained and Heyman enlisted. His former teacher shift bin. Baz has to help and then shaping buzz intervened. All of the detainees were released. This could have crushed the movement but but instead John Hayman's group continued organizing at this time. Jackson was just one of many emerging leaders in the conservative movement in the kingdom but then something happened that set him. Apart as he was going on this path he had this dream about his brother-in-law in decided that he was could be the Moxie. The mattie is debated mysterious concept in a slum. It isn't mentioned the on but basically the idea's this at some point a messianic figure called the method who according to some traditional interpretations reputations is going to come from the same Arab tribe as the Prophet Muhammed and even have the same physical features and name. As the Prophet overturn to usher in the a day of Judgment Johann became convinced that his soon to be brother in law Mohammad bin Abdallah was the Mattie. She looked at him and looked at the descriptions of of how the market should look in the eighth in the sayings of Prophet Muhammed Physical descriptions the name You know it all kind of seem to match watch for him to the best of our knowledge. It appears such a Haymond genuinely believed his soon to be brother in law was the Mattie and that led him to a serious conclusion preaching and winning followers wasn't enough action needed to be taken. The Saudi government had to be removed but. Interestingly this is where he differed from other religious conservatives like his teacher shift Bin Baz NBA's really at the time endorsed a lot of the criticism the true human head against the the state of Saudi Arabia. At the time I would say well. Yes this is wrong with that is wrong also wrong but we should not Weasel Zubay the king because the king is the guarantee that our way of seeing Islam our way of doing things we preserved against the infidels. Who for the most Carla be clerics would be any other smirk ultimately? Even bin Baz is disapproval. Wouldn't be enough to sway James determination to get rid of the Saudi royal family and his ability to wage. An attack got even stronger. After he started attracting foreign followers to his movement he won followers from all all over the Middle East especially Egypt. Some of these followers had come from the Muslim Brotherhood. A well organized Islamic political machine. And so you really had this marriage of the Saudi Wahabbi zeal with Japan and the ready. meads Islamic militancy That came from Egyptian and some other foreigners who came to Saudi Arabia. So you had the the the the fusion of the theology with the organization skills skills and and violent extremism by Nineteen seventy-nine Joe Hayman's group grew to include hundreds if not thousand or more members they were motivated needed and capable of a well planned attack on the Saudi regime. Johanna and his followers had a radical idea. They were going to attack. Islam's holiest site site the Grand Mosque of Mecca which is blasphemous act but heyman came up with his own religious interpretation nation to justify it he figured it would be a strike right at the heart of Saudi legitimacy. After all if couldn't protect these holy sites should they be in charge Arja them he hoped it would gain the attention of the world and usher in Islamic revolution and the Dave judgment they planned the attack for the first day of Mahendra in the year. Fourteen hundred Saami calendar which happened to two seventy nine. The Mecca Mosque is a huge which facility and millions of people go in and out every year so the doors are almost never locked. Giannis people prepare pretty well. They drove pickups full of weapons into the tunnels In becomes below the Holy Shrines theories are they were able to do this despite bribing guards and by using dark but ingenious technique to bring weapons into the mosque. People bring him dead to perform lost lost ritual sprayers and so on so the plot of the spanned was essentially to introduce weapons in coffins. Jon Heyman and his Molten stresses pilgrims they grab their weapons and and emerged from the underground mixing in with the pilgrims and they took over the facility shutdown the doors and Hamon stepped up. Bent ripped away. The microphone bounced up. The mattie had returned and liberation of Saudi Arabia would start one might say that most of the pilgrims at the time in the mosque were not fluent in Arabic people from Pakistan from Indonesia from Turkey from Africa and so and even the ones who need Arabic Ah good necessarily understand months Bedouin accents fusion and going on until fighting starts and when we come back the siege of Mecca turns into a battle. You're calling from Akron Ohio and you're listening to through line this message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things are slow like snail races. Other things are are fast like Xfinity X.. Fi you get fast speeds even when everyone is online xfinity has the goal of maintaining coverage all over your house with reliable service for all devices so everyone is happy. You can even pause the in Home Wifi to bring the family together working to make WIFI simple simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions. Apply with your friends by mid morning on November twentieth. The scene in downtown Mecca was chaos. Johanna and his followers is had seized. The grandmas taking nearly one hundred thousand scared. Panicking hostages were began spreading throughout the city that there was an incident at the shrine cried. At the time there were construction crews working for the Saudi Binladin Group A company owned by the father of Osama bin Laden renovating parts of the mosque. Those workers workers immediately alerted authorities. Police were deployed to end the siege. But when officers tried to approach the mosque they were shots from the minarets massacre for anyone who dared enter the mosque grounds was shot and soon Saudi authorities. They start to send more troops but the troops refused to fight now. The soldiers and the National Guards knew that it's forbidden to even you know harm. Birds in the holy precinct Latte along bringing bringing weapons let alone shoot weapons. Initial assaults approved to be very costly because the facility is like a fortress who are very high walls and you have to climb on top of them and they'll sharpshooters or shooting on the soldiers basil and you realize that you cannot keep people in there because because they need food that he toilets water so the short period of time pilot Muslim go once the Saudis understood the seriousness of the situation Asian. They realized they had a problem. As the custodians of the holy cities they were embarrassed by their inability to keep pogrom safe so they tried to keep the news of the siege from getting out of Mecca. Saudi Arabia Immediately cut up phone lines to Mecca. They really mash suppress it for several hours. And nobody you go now. The the news really see where the David Bar there like in the company was where he for one day after the siege ended he. We're really a Fiji matter. She had this is Adnan hoop he lived in Saudi Arabia at the time of the siege. Each he explained a local people knew something was happening in the grandmas but nothing about who was responsible. There was a lot of confusion Lyonnais avid easy. For people of information there were even some people and outskirts of nectar. We did not no what was happening it was a totem news. Blockage and God only knows we did not know what the true you really want a lot of the United States one of Saudi Arabia's closest allies also didn't know oh who was responsible so when President Carter gathered his advisors in the White House the information. They had that this must have been. They work of the Iranians. The Islamic Revolution overthrew Iran's Shah or king earlier in that year and the new Iranian government was immediately antagonistic towards the house of Saudi. There were still holding hostages at the American Embassy in Tehran when the siege in Mecca started so the US government within hours of the attack concluded that Iran must have done. Something must have stirred trouble in holy mosque and so administration officials actually blamed around the time and and sent aircraft carrier to the Gulf in response. Iran's response was denial and then to blame the US for the siege but how Khameini obviously went on the air and said no no. It's the Americans sending Jews to desecrate Holy Site. This message made its way all over his Islamic world and many people believed Khomeini's assertion this conspiracy theory about the American movement spread much much faster around the Muslim world than really fueled island China. Thousands of Pakistanis enflamed by rumors that the United States had invaded Mecca burned the US embassy embassy here trapping about one hundred Americans and embassy employees for five hours and the heavily secured top floor code. One Marine Guard was shot and killed during the attack and Pakistan took over and burnt American embassy and the rights in India was Writes the American Embassy. Trooping Libya about two thousand demonstrators stormed the United States Embassy in Libya today shouting slogans in support board of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini he's anti American policies and even Mohammed Abbas yet. The Turkish militant tried to kill the Pope latrone was was also motivated by this. The Saudi government made a couple of announcements the days after the siege began. They knowledge that there was an ongoing crisis in the Grand Mosque mask but offered little beyond official Saudi comments on slide disturbing Appeared two years later. As word of the siege began seeping out of Mecca. The Saudis realize they needed ended quick and to do that they had to stage an actual full-scale military assault but remember it's forbidden in a Slob to commit acts the violence in Mecca so the Saudis needed a religious decree or fatwa from the Kingdom's clergy or ulema to go ahead with the assault. So they the need fatwa From the religious authorities would authorize the operation and the fatal wasn't forthcoming because Luther. She's one at the extract a price for it. Okay so remember shift Bin Baz Joe. Hayman's teacher the guy who helped get his men out of jail. So Shaping Baz was the Dean Dean of the Adversity Islamic University of Medina. So he was probably the most respected scholar at the time and the want whom their Aurigny it felt like they had to listen. After days of frustration the Saudi King Collared Some Unshaven Baas and the leading members of the Ulama to the capital for a sit down and it was a very difficult meeting because bin Baz and the others were saying. Well you know there are problems uh-huh in our country now all this. The morals are very lose. His soul is forbidden. Things happening must do something about what were the specific demands but the the demands were for example more restrictions on women's rights. But most importantly what they wanted is that they wanted to burst out of Saudi Arabia. Because they had this global mission of Dowa of spreading the view of Islam to the rest of the misguided to Muslim nations and And they needed the backing of the Saudi state for that. The support of the Saudi government allowed the Lama to open schools mosques and charities all all around the Muslim world from Nigeria to Indonesia. We have to stop for a second here and emphasize the importance of this moment. Up until nineteen nineteen seventy-nine. They had made a very specific arrangement. Deal with the religious establishment. There is no interference in each other's business. The Saudi's feared that this arrangement could be in jeopardy if the Allama were able to extract these new demands but Joe says even knowing the risks. There really weren't many options for King holid- and the Royal Family. He had no choice but to acquiesce to the demands. This was a great bargain between the Obama and and House of Sodium which they said Okay we will support you and is critical moment. We will authorize the military operation in holiest on his this but in exchange you know you will allow us to use the resources of the Saudi state to further our cause throw the Muslim on Muslim nation. where the clerics involved at all in orchestrating this siege I have seen no evidence that the activity and apt this by the surgeon took advantage of this To further their own ninety S. It took took three days for the clerics dependent allowing for Saudi authorities to use violence to take back the GRANDMAS ask. The Saudi forces made preparations and while the clerics have been negotiating the fatwa the Saudis had finally done another thing. They made public statements acknowledging that their own people were responsible who for the attack while the Saudis had to make this declaration because the Americans but Presi them in the US government. Saying hello. Mike you have to say it's not us and and so the House of so did make these statements and the blame miscreants this is audio of a message. Saudi authorities blasted into the mosque over loudspeakers pleading with the militants to end the takeover. It was on fire and murderous on the Muslims by these renegade. Kahan didn't end it. So within hours of the fatwa being issued the Saudi forces began their assault to take back. The GRANDMAS her server assurance conducted Saudi military brought in armored vehicles commandos and even tanks to dislodge Jon Heyman and his fighters Jay Heymann has spent the week digging in. Initially they fail but after taking heavy losses Saudi security forces finally made their way into the grandmas grounds. You had armored personnel carriers out the M one one threes driving into into the holiday precinct and firing hiring. There was a machine gun position of the rebels just behind the COBB others elliptical wall just in front of the Saudis made progress but at a very very high cost the fighting was intense and dead bodies littered the grounds of the mosque but by the end of the first week they managed to clear out the surface parts so the mosque Jehan was prepared for this. His fighters retreated along with a small number of hostages to a place beneath the Grand Mosque and Kaba for their last stand and under the mosque. there is war of Labor in Center catacombs ancient storage areas that was really hard to penetrate. Because how do you go in and sell booby-trapped the pressure with continuing to mount on the Saudis to end the siege and so They really couldn't clear it on their own and so they had to ask for help so there were two countries that That could help was the. US and was France. France Promo the. US was that after the Vietnam War after a congressional hearings and the position of restrictions on the activities Cassia and all the leaks that out The salaries digitally trust the US and so the Saudis had a very good working relationship with the French at the time because the France then was led by conservative government much more hardline than the cadre administration. They're much more WIG action. The French sent a small detachment of officers from elite counterterrorism. Force will guess the French Special Forces this proposed. Using a non lethal gas to force out your Hayman's militants was supposed to knock out the militants and then the Saudi troops in gas masks would come in and kill them or take them mount when we come back the brutal ending the siege of Mecca and how it changed Saudi Arabia. Hi My name is Eddie. Morandi you're listening through life this message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things. Things are slow like snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X. Y.. You get fast speeds even when everyone is online xfinity affinity has the goal of maintaining coverage all over your house with reliable service for all devices so everyone is happy. You can even pause the in Home Wifi Hi to bring the family together working to make Wifi simple easy awesome more at xfinity Dot Com restrictions apply November twenty eighth nineteen seventy-nine over a week into the siege. Most of the militants had retreated under the mosque grounds. Only a few of the most hardcore militants remained remained above ground to fight. One of those people was the supposed Mehdi Mohammadzadeh. They're stuck there Louis. Tear Gas us is firing their staff. There is no medical care but there were guided by belief. And the Mati itself the supposed Mattie and I would go onto the bullets behind by them so was courage that comes from inability you will be harmed. The militants fought fought back hard. Shooting a hail of bullets at the soldiers. As they approached there were fueled by a belief in Mattie until he was harmed and killed and then suddenly eh started to crumble. This was the guy who was supposed to usher in the end of the world. The militants couldn't believe he was dead and that that demoralized ranks ranks Jehan had to convince them to stay on and fight. Things were about to get worse for the militants. French troops arrived a few days later. mm-hmm the friendships themselves did not actually go to McAfee. The debris the gas that trained the Saudis and they stayed in the hotel and tough on December third. The Saudi commandos began their final assault to end the siege the released gas into the underground chambers. They were instructed by the French a firefight and see it was very chaotic. It was an environment where everybody was was panicking. And in the darkness and crossfire militants and hostages and soldiers all killed by the end of the day. Many of the militants were dead and dozens were arrested including John Hayman himself pure extract out his soil clothes and smoke in his face and spread around the cameras. It diplomat Egeria man even if an RT also been syphilis not be one of the leaders of this wishes. Gang of renegades looking ready and mumbling now that he's captured in a way to fake the photos of the captured militants are haunting there. They are dressed in long robes. Some with beards others as young as teenagers covered in dust most of them had a look of shock and confusion on their faces. It was over. The the siege had failed more than sixty people were arrested including may not be a doer all tried and then they were all beheaded. The executions did not all take place and Mecca. They took place throughout Saudi Arabia. In order for the government to send a clear message I won and all that the justice of dull sound would be impost in total. The hostages were killed. Civilians were killed troops were killed. Nobody knows exactly how many because of us all the numbers that come out from the Saudis after the facts are highly questionable. And the real death toll much higher than than if you had her they say this was a horrible event. Weeks of daily warfare sometimes hand to hand combat. So you can imagine only you can imagine the damage that was done and part of the Kaaba were damaged. The door I would. This says that went inside the mosque immediately. After the assault and the DIG ration- of the facility the the blackened walls slip the burn smell of flesh and it was also horrible site on December fourth. The Saudi Saudi government was back in control of the Grand Mosque and they immediately proclaimed a great victory. Now the extent of the the damage was not not. That's world they actually managed to keep quiet tatler not to reveal just how bad things were just how much destruction was just many housed housed. There were the Saudi government. Did their best to try to erase the event from the memory of its citizens the was a book published shortly after the teach that continual officials statements and declarations and official narrative. That book was sticking out labs and destroyed then. Suddenly it was forbidden. Didn't mention that this has ever happened was wiped off history. Books shameful admits that in such a major failure occurred. Aw also because punch not so long ago older people who ran Saudi Arabia. The time we're still in power saying the Ministry of the Interior Ministry of Defence Offense. The head of National Guards The were all I didn't see positions or Kissel had national guards. who was the king up until just a few years ago? So what are the ramifications of this event on Saudi Arabia and the world by the certification was that it stopped the modernization of Saudi Arabia Society for a very long time. Saudi Arabia became a very conservative country. After nineteen seventy. It became very much interested in puritanism for example movie theaters were banned. The condition of women became much more difficult pickled the wearing of abayas even the broadcast to close their their faces became much more prevalent. The liberal rural approach was essentially in abeyance. So dark chapter really started in the country and at the same time it empowered the conservative clerics of Saudi Arabia to know just controlled the social elements in kingdom but to export they very and was cheer conservative vision of Islam around the world where it was really very marginal up until then the religious establishment gained a great deal of power. Our Day They received large sums of money to build much many more mosques to gain control over the curriculum for students in in universities universities and schools so there are lots of popularity suddenly became mainstream suddenly young illiterate people going to see some Islamic guidance education and all over the world in the village in Negeria. You know or Java with anything. This is what Islam is tree gave the salute. This massive soft power in the world and something that really fostered the development of Jihadi groups and and extremist groups from Najib Indonesia. Even though John Hayman's mission ultimately failed his actions and his apocalyptic view of Salaam's future has had a lasting effect on other extremists. Diamond was an inspiration to many extremists over the past few decades. Messianic Addict Vision that since you haven't had was adopted almost worked by wards by slamming state and inspiration There's no way that Japan and his followers is could have understood the impact they have. I mean no one really did but the fact is those fifteen days pushed Saudi Arabia and many parts of the Islamic world in a new direction. It allowed what was a fringe ideology Wahabism to have more of an influence globally in some places places. It completely reframe the faith and in others it pushed people towards a militant apocalyptic view that's had profound consequences And today we still live in the shadow of the siege of Mecca. That's this week's show. I'm Ron Bluey. I'm Rhonda a new listening to derive from NPR. This this episode was produced by me and me and Jamie York Lawrence. Lane Kaplan Levinson blue all county. Niger Eaten Brock. Turkey for this episode episode was done by Stephanie Days. Thank you to Muhammad Albert. DC Alex Curly Nikolai Hammer. And of course runs dad not for his voice over Work Butler. Thanks also to on your gunman and Jason fully. Our music was composed by round teen span. Drop Electric if you like something you heard heard or you have an idea for an episode. Lease right is a through line at MPR DOT ORG or hit us up on twitter at through line NPR. Thanks for listening

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